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From: "Roni Even (A)" <roni.even@huawei.com>
To: =?utf-8?B?TWlyamEgS8O8aGxld2luZA==?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
CC: Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
Subject: RE: Packet number encryption
Thread-Topic: Packet number encryption
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Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 08:04:55 +0000
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Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 09:08:08 +0100
In-Reply-To: <CAGD1bZbH2qz2WL0YsOJJ=j7V-Lkt_V6K1RQ+5ZhMAzOWEAvdGQ@mail.gmail.com>
Cc: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, =?utf-8?Q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
To: Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>
References: <CABkgnnVyo3MmWtVULiV=FJTnR528qfY8-OmKGWAs0bCvri-a_g@mail.gmail.com> <1F7FB3B8-A94C-4354-9944-FB09FB8DB68B@trammell.ch> <CABcZeBMbwdwyC9TxxHBLYaZKfNB-FG2wCGjqUZ_mNR-A1R47FA@mail.gmail.com> <9096e5ec-581e-875a-b1dd-bff0b05206fd@huitema.net> <CABkgnnWRQSAufwPss+qf=xAzCwRYeNNH8XLPm3yFaHxOb+ba4g@mail.gmail.com> <BF80500A-6277-45DC-8525-9C3FE138B76D@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <827BA6F8-5CA8-420A-B18B-60D8BC134A46@fb.com> <CA+9kkMDvp64NspznEuVy2tu8Eh1xmFkXu5S0AtDwbZKQ9Kq2fA@mail.gmail.com> <7F0C8A1D-1CE8-44E1-B3A4-ACFCB19D1F12@fb.com> <CABkgnnVsx9ohKO95bsDbYpM+bgWb-HQiVW2Yn=XWG458uzNgtg@mail.gmail.com> <CAGD1bZbH2qz2WL0YsOJJ=j7V-Lkt_V6K1RQ+5ZhMAzOWEAvdGQ@mail.gmail.com>
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hi Jana, all,

> On 1 Feb 2018, at 03:46, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com> wrote:
>=20
> I like this proposal for the ossification reason that Roberto =
described, but I also like it because it really simplifies things from =
an implementation perspective.

There seems to be a largely unquestioned assumption that packet number =
encryption has utility for ossification prevention. I am not convinced =
of this.

Our experience with TLS greasing shows that placing random values in =
fields that would otherwise largely be static over the lifetime of the =
protocol improves the ability to use those fields later. Packet number =
encryption is greasing only by analogy. "Field X has value Y" is a =
fundamentally different observation than "The values of field X over =
time are governed by function F", and I'm not sure that intuition in the =
simpler case applies directly to the more complicated one.

Specifically, for packet number encryption, the assumption appears to be =
that in-network devices will deploy during the operational lifetime of =
QUIC v1 that will make use of the observation that packet numbers =
monotonically increase, in a way that will impair the deployment of QUIC =
vN > 1 that does not have packet numbers that monotonically increase, or =
packet numbers that appear at a different location in the header. In =
other words, these devices will fail on this new version of QUIC in such =
a way that it will impair service to endpoints using QUIC vN.

Analogies to the TCP sequence number here are a bit flawed. The most =
important difference is that the open nature of TCP's wire image means =
that usage of the sequence number isn't limited to observation: on-path =
devices can change it, and forge or delay ACKs based on it. The only =
thing an on-path device can do with a QUIC packet with a packet number =
it doesn't like is to drop it. This function might have some utility as =
part of an in-network QUIC garbage filter, as part of an anti-DDoS =
system, but any such device would need to track the version number as =
well (indeed, tracking version negotiation and handshaking would be a =
useful primitive here in its own right), and would therefore have enough =
information to not break on new versions it knows about.

(Note we specifically don't care about the case where devices making use =
of this observation stop working in a way that the end-to-end properties =
of QUIC vN are preserved: the invariants as of a given version are the =
public wire-image interface to the protocol, anything else is =
at-your-own-risk, no-user-servicable-parts-inside).

I suspect that similar arguments can be had about all but the simplest =
proposed applications of greasing to functions more complex than "the =
value of field X is always Y or Z". The example of packet number =
tracking points to an anti-ossification approach that I have much more =
confidence in, though:

The vigorous and meaningful exercise of the version negotiation and =
version coexistence systems built into QUIC would force agility on =
on-path devices. The earlier we do this, the more effective it would be. =
I've already said this in other contexts, but I'll explicitly suggest it =
here: let's do QUIC 2, and soon (say, July 2019?), and use version =
negotiation *itself* as a method to "grease" the version negotiation =
mechanism along with the rest of the header.

> We currently have packet number gaps to be used with new CIDs, but =
these are the same packet numbers on the wire as within the transport. =
So, when used with connection migration or after quiescence, the sender =
and receiver of ACKs has to deal with potentially large gaps... this is =
encodable on the wire, sure, but these gaps are unnecessary within the =
transport.
>=20
> Encrypting packet numbers reduces complexity in that you get a packet =
number gap on the wire without having to explicitly model it inside the =
transport. The transport machinery starts packet numbers at 0, =
increments it by 1 irrespective of migration or quiescence, and the ACK =
frames similarly carry the plaintext packet number. Separating what's =
used within the transport and what's visible on the wire allows you to =
do things like use multiple CIDs within the same 5-tuple.

This is a more convincing argument for packet number encryption -- it =
does seem hard to get this elegance in the transport while having a =
non-trivially-linkable wire image without it.

> I see it as a clean separation of concerns, with consequent =
simplification in implementation and an additional degree of freedom.
>=20
> I'm not convinced of the value of packet number in measuring =
reordering degree, since this can be trivially done by looking at the IP =
ID field for packets on the same 5-tuple.

For IPv4 packets, on implementations where IPID is not randomized, yes. =
I don't have numbers on how prevalent these are; in any case, where it =
isn't randomized, that's arguably a bug that should be fixed. Should the =
guidance in the manageability draft, then, be "use IPv4 if you care =
about loss and reordering detection"? I am not optimistic about the =
chances of that getting past the IESG. ;)

Cheers,

Brian

> On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 6:00 PM, Martin Thomson =
<martin.thomson@gmail.com> wrote:
> With some light editing for quoting purposes...
>=20
> On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 12:02 PM, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com> wrote:
> >> Or do you mean CIDs 1-3 may be used on any of the 5-tuples A-C, for =
the same
> >> communicating peers  Alice'sPhone and Bob'sBankServer93?
> >
> > The latter assuming we allow the server to specify it.
>=20
> I find "assuming we allow the server to specify *it*" to be strangely =
cryptic.
>=20
> To be clear, my operating assumption is while that servers can provide
> multiple connection IDs, those connection IDs need to be usable on any
> 5-tuple.  Are you suggesting that a server might need to signal where
> a connection is usable?  (I can see how that might make sense, but it
> isn't possible with the protocol as specified.)  Or are you suggesting
> that there might need to be some signal that allows clients to
> distinguish between connection IDs that are for concurrent use? That
> is, as opposed to what you might assume to be sequential use based on
> the current specification.
>=20
> FWIW, it should be possible to remove the sequencing field from
> NEW_CONNECTION_ID after making this change.  The only reason left for
> sequential connection ID use is to give the server the ability to know
> when certain connection IDs no longer need to be available.  A server
> might then be able to clean up associated state and even reuse them.
>=20
> Of course, that likely only makes sense if the server is creating
> explicit mappings for each, which - as discussed at the interim -
> isn't super practical in many deployments.  Right now, I think that
> the assumption is an assumption only, and that relying on strictly
> linear use of connection IDs would be unwise.
>=20
>=20


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From: Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>
To: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
CC: Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>, =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mirja_K=FChlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>, "Eric Rescorla" <ekr@rtfm.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
Thread-Topic: Packet number encryption
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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I'm assuming a server smart enough to encrypt routing info (i.e. l7 instanc=
e to which the l4 should forward) with sufficient random salt that the CID =
looks completely random to someone else (other than l4 or l7).

I was assuming for now that a CID so given was valid on any path.  It would=
, however, be perfectly reasonable (though not yet spec'd) for "real" multi=
path to specify CID on a per dst tuple basis (so per day tuple or for any d=
st tuple could be different CIDs), in which case the server would need a pr=
otocol mechanism. Ideally such a mechanism would allow an automatic change =
of CID when the client is participating in the new 5-tuple/path, potentiall=
y allowing detection of explicit client action (client explicitly binds to =
new 5-tuple) vs nat rebinding (oh, I have a new address,oops/how curious!),=
 etc.

I was also thinking about l4/l7 shared key material. In particular, to deal=
 with key rotation for the shared key material used to encrypt the CID with=
out making a new connection, a server must both be able to provide CIDs, an=
d be able revoke them. It must revoke (or equivalent) so that a client will=
 have a finite lifetime with the old CID, presumably using the old key mate=
rial.

-=3DR

Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S7, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
Date: 1/31/18 6:01 PM (GMT-08:00)
To: Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>
Cc: Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>, Mirja K=FChlewind <mirja.kuehlewind@ti=
k.ee.ethz.ch>, Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.c=
om>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption

With some light editing for quoting purposes...

On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 12:02 PM, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com> wrote:
>> Or do you mean CIDs 1-3 may be used on any of the 5-tuples A-C, for the =
same
>> communicating peers  Alice'sPhone and Bob'sBankServer93?
>
> The latter assuming we allow the server to specify it.

I find "assuming we allow the server to specify *it*" to be strangely crypt=
ic.

To be clear, my operating assumption is while that servers can provide
multiple connection IDs, those connection IDs need to be usable on any
5-tuple.  Are you suggesting that a server might need to signal where
a connection is usable?  (I can see how that might make sense, but it
isn't possible with the protocol as specified.)  Or are you suggesting
that there might need to be some signal that allows clients to
distinguish between connection IDs that are for concurrent use? That
is, as opposed to what you might assume to be sequential use based on
the current specification.

FWIW, it should be possible to remove the sequencing field from
NEW_CONNECTION_ID after making this change.  The only reason left for
sequential connection ID use is to give the server the ability to know
when certain connection IDs no longer need to be available.  A server
might then be able to clean up associated state and even reuse them.

Of course, that likely only makes sense if the server is creating
explicit mappings for each, which - as discussed at the interim -
isn't super practical in many deployments.  Right now, I think that
the assumption is an assumption only, and that relying on strictly
linear use of connection IDs would be unwise.

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<div>
<div>I'm assuming a server smart enough to encrypt routing info (i.e. l7 in=
stance to which the l4 should forward) with sufficient random salt that the=
 CID looks completely random to someone else (other than l4 or l7).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I was assuming for now that a CID so given was valid on any path.&nbsp=
; It would, however, be perfectly reasonable (though not yet spec'd) for &q=
uot;real&quot; multipath to specify CID on a per dst tuple basis (so per da=
y tuple or for any dst tuple could be different
 CIDs), in which case the server would need a protocol mechanism. Ideally s=
uch a mechanism would allow an automatic change of CID when the client is p=
articipating in the new 5-tuple/path, potentially allowing detection of exp=
licit client action (client explicitly
 binds to new 5-tuple) vs nat rebinding (oh, I have a new address,oops/how =
curious!), etc.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I was also thinking about l4/l7 shared key material. In particular, to=
 deal with key rotation for the shared key material used to encrypt the CID=
 without making a new connection, a server must both be able to provide CID=
s, and be able revoke them. It must
 revoke (or equivalent) so that a client will have a finite lifetime with t=
he old CID, presumably using the old key material.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-=3DR</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div id=3D"x_composer_signature">
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"font-size:85%; color:#575757">Sent via the Samsu=
ng Galaxy S7, an AT&amp;T 4G LTE smartphone</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-------- Original message --------</div>
<div>From: Martin Thomson &lt;martin.thomson@gmail.com&gt; </div>
<div>Date: 1/31/18 6:01 PM (GMT-08:00) </div>
<div>To: Roberto Peon &lt;fenix@fb.com&gt; </div>
<div>Cc: Ted Hardie &lt;ted.ietf@gmail.com&gt;, Mirja K=FChlewind &lt;mirja=
.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch&gt;, Brian Trammell &lt;ietf@trammell.ch&gt;, Er=
ic Rescorla &lt;ekr@rtfm.com&gt;, QUIC WG &lt;quic@ietf.org&gt;, Christian =
Huitema &lt;huitema@huitema.net&gt;
</div>
<div>Subject: Re: Packet number encryption </div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<font size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;">
<div class=3D"PlainText">With some light editing for quoting purposes...<br=
>
<br>
On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 12:02 PM, Roberto Peon &lt;fenix@fb.com&gt; wrote:<b=
r>
&gt;&gt; Or do you mean CIDs 1-3 may be used on any of the 5-tuples A-C, fo=
r the same<br>
&gt;&gt; communicating peers&nbsp; Alice'sPhone and Bob'sBankServer93?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The latter assuming we allow the server to specify it.<br>
<br>
I find &quot;assuming we allow the server to specify *it*&quot; to be stran=
gely cryptic.<br>
<br>
To be clear, my operating assumption is while that servers can provide<br>
multiple connection IDs, those connection IDs need to be usable on any<br>
5-tuple.&nbsp; Are you suggesting that a server might need to signal where<=
br>
a connection is usable?&nbsp; (I can see how that might make sense, but it<=
br>
isn't possible with the protocol as specified.)&nbsp; Or are you suggesting=
<br>
that there might need to be some signal that allows clients to<br>
distinguish between connection IDs that are for concurrent use? That<br>
is, as opposed to what you might assume to be sequential use based on<br>
the current specification.<br>
<br>
FWIW, it should be possible to remove the sequencing field from<br>
NEW_CONNECTION_ID after making this change.&nbsp; The only reason left for<=
br>
sequential connection ID use is to give the server the ability to know<br>
when certain connection IDs no longer need to be available.&nbsp; A server<=
br>
might then be able to clean up associated state and even reuse them.<br>
<br>
Of course, that likely only makes sense if the server is creating<br>
explicit mappings for each, which - as discussed at the interim -<br>
isn't super practical in many deployments.&nbsp; Right now, I think that<br=
>
the assumption is an assumption only, and that relying on strictly<br>
linear use of connection IDs would be unwise.<br>
</div>
</span></font>
</body>
</html>

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To: "Brian Trammell (IETF)" <ietf@trammell.ch>, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>
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From: Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>
To: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
CC: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>,  "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>, "De Schepper, Koen (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" <koen.de_schepper@nokia-bell-labs.com>, Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>
Subject: ECN in QUIC connection migration 
Thread-Topic: ECN in QUIC connection migration 
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Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 11:07:04 +0000
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Hi
I have written up different aspects of connection migration and how it play=
s with ECN.
https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/wiki/ECN-in-QUIC#transport-draft-conn=
ection-migration

A caveat.. I am a bit unsure about the definition of connection migration .=
 My interpretation is that a client moves to a new IP address due to e.g. a=
 NAT rebind or switch from WiFi to cellular, right ?. Is a new connection i=
nstantiated at a connection migration ?

/Ingemar

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Ingemar Johansson  M.Sc.
Master Researcher

Ericsson Research
Network Protocols & E2E Performance
Labratoriegr=E4nd 11
971 28, Lule=E5, Sweden
Phone +46-1071 43042
SMS/MMS +46-73 078 3289
ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com<mailto:ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>
www.ericsson.com

                 You can't start a fire
  Worrying 'bout your little world falling apart
               Bruce Springsteen
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D


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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I have written up different aspects of connection mi=
gration and how it plays with ECN.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/wik=
i/ECN-in-QUIC#transport-draft-connection-migration">https://github.com/quic=
wg/base-drafts/wiki/ECN-in-QUIC#transport-draft-connection-migration</a><o:=
p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">A caveat.. I am a bit unsure about the definition of=
 connection migration . My interpretation is that a client moves to a new I=
P address due to e.g. a NAT rebind or switch from WiFi to cellular, right ?=
. Is a new connection instantiated
 at a connection migration ? <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">/Ingemar<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-autospace:none"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-autospace:none"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">Ingemar Johansson&nbsp;=
 M.Sc.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-autospace:none"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">Master Researcher<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-autospace:none"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-autospace:none"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">Ericsson Research<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-autospace:none"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">Network Protocols &amp;=
 E2E Performance<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-autospace:none"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">Labratoriegr=E4nd 11<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-autospace:none"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">971 28, Lule=E5, Sweden=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-autospace:none"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">Phone &#43;46-1071 4304=
2<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-autospace:none"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">SMS/MMS &#43;46-73 078 =
3289<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-autospace:none"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif"><a href=3D"mailto:ingem=
ar.s.johansson@ericsson.com"><span style=3D"color:windowtext">ingemar.s.joh=
ansson@ericsson.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-autospace:none"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif"><a href=3D"www.ericsson=
.com"><span style=3D"color:windowtext">www.ericsson.com</span></a><o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-autospace:none"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;background:#CCCCDD"><o:p=
>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-autospace:none"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;background:white">&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; You can't start a fire</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif"><br>
<span style=3D"background:white">&nbsp; Worrying 'bout your little world fa=
lling apart<o:p></o:p></span></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-autospace:none"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;background:white">&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp; Bruce Springsteen</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&qu=
ot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif"><br>
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<span style=3D"background:white"><o:p></o:p></sp=
an></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: Eric Kinnear <ekinnear@apple.com>
Message-id: <639A6936-34F2-4C27-973A-EEAE878677FA@apple.com>
Subject: Re: ECN in QUIC connection migration
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2018 15:01:34 -0800
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Cc: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>, "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, "De Schepper, Koen (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" <koen.de_schepper@nokia-bell-labs.com>
To: Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>
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Hi Ingemar,=20

This generally looks good to me!
A few questions and observations:=20

> There are two unique cases:
>=20
> 	=E2=80=A2 ECN capability check successful at initial connection =
setup
> 	=E2=80=A2 ECN capability check failed at initial connection =
setup

Are these actually any different in terms of action taken by an =
endpoint?
It seems like on the new network path the endpoint would go through the =
same process of: (a) verify ECN capability and if successful to whatever =
degree then (b) run the rest of the ECN machinery as appropriate.

In other words, as long as you allow people to start using ECN upon =
migration (in other words, to allow starting it after the initial =
connection establishment), then the specifics for ECN with migration is =
essentially one statement, which is =E2=80=9Cdo the ECN process on each =
new network path that you use=E2=80=9D.=20

> Connection migration has impact on the number of reported CE marked =
packets. A new connection state with new congestion control state and =
ECN counters is instantiated at the sender and receiver. The ECN =
counters MUST start from zero again.

This seems fine to me, it=E2=80=99s inline with the rest of the =
congestion control/loss recovery state that also needs to be reset for =
the new path.=20

Given that each migration requires at least one exchange of packets at =
the beginning (at the very least for address validation from the side of =
the endpoint that didn=E2=80=99t migrate), it seems like that=E2=80=99s =
an excellent moment to mark the packets and perform the ECN capability =
detection. Those packets are also likely padded, etc. similar to initial =
packets since they=E2=80=99re on a previously unused network path.=20

I think the current proposed requirement of just using the =E2=80=9Cfirst=E2=
=80=9D packets and marking those is sufficient (and good to avoid any =
requirement as to which frames are contained in those packets), since we =
are always exchanging packets in both directions immediately after =
migration.=20

This has the added benefit such that any endpoint =E2=80=9Cprobing=E2=80=9D=
 possible network paths could include the bits necessary to detect ECN =
capability on the path being probed, so it could even know before =
migrating whether or not it would be able to use ECN on that new path.=20=


Thanks,
Eric



> On Feb 1, 2018, at 3:07 AM, Ingemar Johansson S =
<ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hi
> I have written up different aspects of connection migration and how it =
plays with ECN.
> =
https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/wiki/ECN-in-QUIC#transport-draft-con=
nection-migration =
<https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/wiki/ECN-in-QUIC#transport-draft-co=
nnection-migration>
> =20
> A caveat.. I am a bit unsure about the definition of connection =
migration . My interpretation is that a client moves to a new IP address =
due to e.g. a NAT rebind or switch from WiFi to cellular, right ?. Is a =
new connection instantiated at a connection migration ?=20
> =20
> /Ingemar
> =20
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> Ingemar Johansson  M.Sc.
> Master Researcher
> =20
> Ericsson Research
> Network Protocols & E2E Performance
> Labratoriegr=C3=A4nd 11
> 971 28, Lule=C3=A5, Sweden
> Phone +46-1071 43042
> SMS/MMS +46-73 078 3289
> ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com =
<mailto:ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>
> www.ericsson.com <x-msg://316/www.ericsson.com>
> =20
>                  You can't start a fire
>   Worrying 'bout your little world falling apart
>                Bruce Springsteen
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D


--Boundary_(ID_P1qNjudSPDzUqiVs46MXRQ)
Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Hi =
Ingemar,&nbsp;<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This =
generally looks good to me!</div><div class=3D"">A few questions and =
observations:&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">There are two unique =
cases:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><div class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>=E2=80=A2 =
ECN capability check successful at initial connection setup<br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>=E2=80=A2 ECN capability check =
failed at initial connection setup</div></blockquote><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Are these actually any different in =
terms of action taken by an endpoint?</div><div class=3D"">It seems like =
on the new network path the endpoint would go through the same process =
of: (a) verify ECN capability and if successful to whatever degree then =
(b) run the rest of the ECN machinery as appropriate.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">In other words, as long =
as you allow people to start using ECN upon migration (in other words, =
to allow starting it after the initial connection establishment), then =
the specifics for ECN with migration is essentially one statement, which =
is =E2=80=9Cdo the ECN process on each new network path that you =
use=E2=80=9D.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Connection migration has =
impact on the number of reported CE marked packets. A new connection =
state with new congestion&nbsp;control state and ECN counters is =
instantiated at the sender and receiver. The ECN counters MUST start =
from zero again.<br class=3D""></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div>This seems fine to me, it=E2=80=99s inline with the =
rest of the congestion control/loss recovery state that also needs to be =
reset for the new path.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Given that each migration requires at =
least one exchange of packets at the beginning (at the very least for =
address validation from the side of the endpoint that didn=E2=80=99t =
migrate), it seems like that=E2=80=99s an excellent moment to mark the =
packets and perform the ECN capability detection. Those packets are also =
likely padded, etc. similar to initial packets since they=E2=80=99re on =
a previously unused network path.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I think the current proposed =
requirement of just using the =E2=80=9Cfirst=E2=80=9D packets and =
marking those is sufficient (and good to avoid any requirement as to =
which frames are contained in those packets), since we are always =
exchanging packets in both directions immediately after =
migration.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">This has the added benefit such that any endpoint =
=E2=80=9Cprobing=E2=80=9D possible network paths could include the bits =
necessary to detect ECN capability on the path being probed, so it could =
even know before migrating whether or not it would be able to use ECN on =
that new path.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Thanks,</div><div class=3D"">Eric</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Feb 1, 2018, at 3:07 AM, Ingemar Johansson S &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com" =
class=3D"">ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Hi<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I=
 have written up different aspects of connection migration and how it =
plays with ECN.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/wiki/ECN-in-QUIC#transport-d=
raft-connection-migration" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" =
class=3D"">https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/wiki/ECN-in-QUIC#transpor=
t-draft-connection-migration</a><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">A caveat.. I am a bit unsure about the =
definition of connection migration . My interpretation is that a client =
moves to a new IP address due to e.g. a NAT rebind or switch from WiFi =
to cellular, right ?. Is a new connection instantiated at a connection =
migration ?<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></div></div></div></blockquot=
e><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">/Ingemar<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Ingemar Johansson&nbsp; M.Sc.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Master Researcher<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Ericsson Research<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Network Protocols &amp; E2E Performance<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Labratoriegr=C3=A4nd 11<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D"">971 28, Lule=C3=A5, =
Sweden<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Phone +46-1071 43042<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">SMS/MMS +46-73 078 3289<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
windowtext;" class=3D"">ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"x-msg://316/www.ericsson.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
windowtext;" class=3D"">www.ericsson.com</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; =
background-color: rgb(204, 204, 221); background-position: initial =
initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; background-color: white; background-position: initial =
initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; You can't start a fire</span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><span style=3D"background-color: white; background-position: =
initial initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" class=3D"">&nbsp; =
Worrying 'bout your little world falling apart<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, =
sans-serif; background-color: white; background-position: initial =
initial; background-repeat: initial initial;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Bruce Springsteen</span><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D</span></div></div></div></blockquo=
te></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2018 16:47:17 -0800
Message-ID: <CAM4esxRVecQUJZwSv-+fV43CyTER-OY7H7WZGAKU0yT84qn6aA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
To: Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>
Cc: Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>, Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, =?UTF-8?Q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>,  Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
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Brian, I can come up with a middlebox design that is trying to be "helpful"
but ends up causing PN ossification, but as you suggest this requires the
box to be dumb about versions. So, meh.

The other benefit of this scheme is that acks can go back to 1 byte PNs in
ack frames for many connections, as the true packet number will start at 0
(boo!) or 1 (yay!).

On Feb 1, 2018 12:09 AM, "Brian Trammell (IETF)" <ietf@trammell.ch> wrote:

hi Jana, all,

> On 1 Feb 2018, at 03:46, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com> wrote:
>
> I like this proposal for the ossification reason that Roberto described,
but I also like it because it really simplifies things from an
implementation perspective.

There seems to be a largely unquestioned assumption that packet number
encryption has utility for ossification prevention. I am not convinced of
this.

Our experience with TLS greasing shows that placing random values in fields
that would otherwise largely be static over the lifetime of the protocol
improves the ability to use those fields later. Packet number encryption is
greasing only by analogy. "Field X has value Y" is a fundamentally
different observation than "The values of field X over time are governed by
function F", and I'm not sure that intuition in the simpler case applies
directly to the more complicated one.

Specifically, for packet number encryption, the assumption appears to be
that in-network devices will deploy during the operational lifetime of QUIC
v1 that will make use of the observation that packet numbers monotonically
increase, in a way that will impair the deployment of QUIC vN > 1 that does
not have packet numbers that monotonically increase, or packet numbers that
appear at a different location in the header. In other words, these devices
will fail on this new version of QUIC in such a way that it will impair
service to endpoints using QUIC vN.

Analogies to the TCP sequence number here are a bit flawed. The most
important difference is that the open nature of TCP's wire image means that
usage of the sequence number isn't limited to observation: on-path devices
can change it, and forge or delay ACKs based on it. The only thing an
on-path device can do with a QUIC packet with a packet number it doesn't
like is to drop it. This function might have some utility as part of an
in-network QUIC garbage filter, as part of an anti-DDoS system, but any
such device would need to track the version number as well (indeed,
tracking version negotiation and handshaking would be a useful primitive
here in its own right), and would therefore have enough information to not
break on new versions it knows about.

(Note we specifically don't care about the case where devices making use of
this observation stop working in a way that the end-to-end properties of
QUIC vN are preserved: the invariants as of a given version are the public
wire-image interface to the protocol, anything else is at-your-own-risk,
no-user-servicable-parts-inside).

I suspect that similar arguments can be had about all but the simplest
proposed applications of greasing to functions more complex than "the value
of field X is always Y or Z". The example of packet number tracking points
to an anti-ossification approach that I have much more confidence in,
though:

The vigorous and meaningful exercise of the version negotiation and version
coexistence systems built into QUIC would force agility on on-path devices.
The earlier we do this, the more effective it would be. I've already said
this in other contexts, but I'll explicitly suggest it here: let's do QUIC
2, and soon (say, July 2019?), and use version negotiation *itself* as a
method to "grease" the version negotiation mechanism along with the rest of
the header.

> We currently have packet number gaps to be used with new CIDs, but these
are the same packet numbers on the wire as within the transport. So, when
used with connection migration or after quiescence, the sender and receiver
of ACKs has to deal with potentially large gaps... this is encodable on the
wire, sure, but these gaps are unnecessary within the transport.
>
> Encrypting packet numbers reduces complexity in that you get a packet
number gap on the wire without having to explicitly model it inside the
transport. The transport machinery starts packet numbers at 0, increments
it by 1 irrespective of migration or quiescence, and the ACK frames
similarly carry the plaintext packet number. Separating what's used within
the transport and what's visible on the wire allows you to do things like
use multiple CIDs within the same 5-tuple.

This is a more convincing argument for packet number encryption -- it does
seem hard to get this elegance in the transport while having a
non-trivially-linkable wire image without it.

> I see it as a clean separation of concerns, with consequent
simplification in implementation and an additional degree of freedom.
>
> I'm not convinced of the value of packet number in measuring reordering
degree, since this can be trivially done by looking at the IP ID field for
packets on the same 5-tuple.

For IPv4 packets, on implementations where IPID is not randomized, yes. I
don't have numbers on how prevalent these are; in any case, where it isn't
randomized, that's arguably a bug that should be fixed. Should the guidance
in the manageability draft, then, be "use IPv4 if you care about loss and
reordering detection"? I am not optimistic about the chances of that
getting past the IESG. ;)

Cheers,

Brian

> On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 6:00 PM, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
wrote:
> With some light editing for quoting purposes...
>
> On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 12:02 PM, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com> wrote:
> >> Or do you mean CIDs 1-3 may be used on any of the 5-tuples A-C, for
the same
> >> communicating peers  Alice'sPhone and Bob'sBankServer93?
> >
> > The latter assuming we allow the server to specify it.
>
> I find "assuming we allow the server to specify *it*" to be strangely
cryptic.
>
> To be clear, my operating assumption is while that servers can provide
> multiple connection IDs, those connection IDs need to be usable on any
> 5-tuple.  Are you suggesting that a server might need to signal where
> a connection is usable?  (I can see how that might make sense, but it
> isn't possible with the protocol as specified.)  Or are you suggesting
> that there might need to be some signal that allows clients to
> distinguish between connection IDs that are for concurrent use? That
> is, as opposed to what you might assume to be sequential use based on
> the current specification.
>
> FWIW, it should be possible to remove the sequencing field from
> NEW_CONNECTION_ID after making this change.  The only reason left for
> sequential connection ID use is to give the server the ability to know
> when certain connection IDs no longer need to be available.  A server
> might then be able to clean up associated state and even reuse them.
>
> Of course, that likely only makes sense if the server is creating
> explicit mappings for each, which - as discussed at the interim -
> isn't super practical in many deployments.  Right now, I think that
> the assumption is an assumption only, and that relying on strictly
> linear use of connection IDs would be unwise.
>
>

--001a114b33e4e790530564300df2
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto">Brian, I can come up with a middlebox design that is tryi=
ng to be &quot;helpful&quot; but ends up causing PN ossification, but as yo=
u suggest this requires the box to be dumb about versions. So, meh.<div dir=
=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">The other benefit of this scheme is t=
hat acks can go back to 1 byte PNs in ack frames for many connections, as t=
he true packet number will start at 0 (boo!) or 1 (yay!).</div></div><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Feb 1, 2018 12:09 AM=
, &quot;Brian Trammell (IETF)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@trammell.ch"=
>ietf@trammell.ch</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=
=3D"quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-le=
ft:1ex">hi Jana, all,<br>
<div class=3D"quoted-text"><br>
&gt; On 1 Feb 2018, at 03:46, Jana Iyengar &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jri@google=
.com">jri@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I like this proposal for the ossification reason that Roberto describe=
d, but I also like it because it really simplifies things from an implement=
ation perspective.<br>
<br>
</div>There seems to be a largely unquestioned assumption that packet numbe=
r encryption has utility for ossification prevention. I am not convinced of=
 this.<br>
<br>
Our experience with TLS greasing shows that placing random values in fields=
 that would otherwise largely be static over the lifetime of the protocol i=
mproves the ability to use those fields later. Packet number encryption is =
greasing only by analogy. &quot;Field X has value Y&quot; is a fundamentall=
y different observation than &quot;The values of field X over time are gove=
rned by function F&quot;, and I&#39;m not sure that intuition in the simple=
r case applies directly to the more complicated one.<br>
<br>
Specifically, for packet number encryption, the assumption appears to be th=
at in-network devices will deploy during the operational lifetime of QUIC v=
1 that will make use of the observation that packet numbers monotonically i=
ncrease, in a way that will impair the deployment of QUIC vN &gt; 1 that do=
es not have packet numbers that monotonically increase, or packet numbers t=
hat appear at a different location in the header. In other words, these dev=
ices will fail on this new version of QUIC in such a way that it will impai=
r service to endpoints using QUIC vN.<br>
<br>
Analogies to the TCP sequence number here are a bit flawed. The most import=
ant difference is that the open nature of TCP&#39;s wire image means that u=
sage of the sequence number isn&#39;t limited to observation: on-path devic=
es can change it, and forge or delay ACKs based on it. The only thing an on=
-path device can do with a QUIC packet with a packet number it doesn&#39;t =
like is to drop it. This function might have some utility as part of an in-=
network QUIC garbage filter, as part of an anti-DDoS system, but any such d=
evice would need to track the version number as well (indeed, tracking vers=
ion negotiation and handshaking would be a useful primitive here in its own=
 right), and would therefore have enough information to not break on new ve=
rsions it knows about.<br>
<br>
(Note we specifically don&#39;t care about the case where devices making us=
e of this observation stop working in a way that the end-to-end properties =
of QUIC vN are preserved: the invariants as of a given version are the publ=
ic wire-image interface to the protocol, anything else is at-your-own-risk,=
 no-user-servicable-parts-<wbr>inside).<br>
<br>
I suspect that similar arguments can be had about all but the simplest prop=
osed applications of greasing to functions more complex than &quot;the valu=
e of field X is always Y or Z&quot;. The example of packet number tracking =
points to an anti-ossification approach that I have much more confidence in=
, though:<br>
<br>
The vigorous and meaningful exercise of the version negotiation and version=
 coexistence systems built into QUIC would force agility on on-path devices=
. The earlier we do this, the more effective it would be. I&#39;ve already =
said this in other contexts, but I&#39;ll explicitly suggest it here: let&#=
39;s do QUIC 2, and soon (say, July 2019?), and use version negotiation *it=
self* as a method to &quot;grease&quot; the version negotiation mechanism a=
long with the rest of the header.<br>
<div class=3D"quoted-text"><br>
&gt; We currently have packet number gaps to be used with new CIDs, but the=
se are the same packet numbers on the wire as within the transport. So, whe=
n used with connection migration or after quiescence, the sender and receiv=
er of ACKs has to deal with potentially large gaps... this is encodable on =
the wire, sure, but these gaps are unnecessary within the transport.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Encrypting packet numbers reduces complexity in that you get a packet =
number gap on the wire without having to explicitly model it inside the tra=
nsport. The transport machinery starts packet numbers at 0, increments it b=
y 1 irrespective of migration or quiescence, and the ACK frames similarly c=
arry the plaintext packet number. Separating what&#39;s used within the tra=
nsport and what&#39;s visible on the wire allows you to do things like use =
multiple CIDs within the same 5-tuple.<br>
<br>
</div>This is a more convincing argument for packet number encryption -- it=
 does seem hard to get this elegance in the transport while having a non-tr=
ivially-linkable wire image without it.<br>
<div class=3D"quoted-text"><br>
&gt; I see it as a clean separation of concerns, with consequent simplifica=
tion in implementation and an additional degree of freedom.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I&#39;m not convinced of the value of packet number in measuring reord=
ering degree, since this can be trivially done by looking at the IP ID fiel=
d for packets on the same 5-tuple.<br>
<br>
</div>For IPv4 packets, on implementations where IPID is not randomized, ye=
s. I don&#39;t have numbers on how prevalent these are; in any case, where =
it isn&#39;t randomized, that&#39;s arguably a bug that should be fixed. Sh=
ould the guidance in the manageability draft, then, be &quot;use IPv4 if yo=
u care about loss and reordering detection&quot;? I am not optimistic about=
 the chances of that getting past the IESG. ;)<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
Brian<br>
<div class=3D"elided-text"><br>
&gt; On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 6:00 PM, Martin Thomson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
martin.thomson@gmail.com">martin.thomson@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; With some light editing for quoting purposes...<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 12:02 PM, Roberto Peon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fe=
nix@fb.com">fenix@fb.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Or do you mean CIDs 1-3 may be used on any of the 5-tuples A-=
C, for the same<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; communicating peers=C2=A0 Alice&#39;sPhone and Bob&#39;sBankS=
erver93?<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; The latter assuming we allow the server to specify it.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I find &quot;assuming we allow the server to specify *it*&quot; to be =
strangely cryptic.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; To be clear, my operating assumption is while that servers can provide=
<br>
&gt; multiple connection IDs, those connection IDs need to be usable on any=
<br>
&gt; 5-tuple.=C2=A0 Are you suggesting that a server might need to signal w=
here<br>
&gt; a connection is usable?=C2=A0 (I can see how that might make sense, bu=
t it<br>
&gt; isn&#39;t possible with the protocol as specified.)=C2=A0 Or are you s=
uggesting<br>
&gt; that there might need to be some signal that allows clients to<br>
&gt; distinguish between connection IDs that are for concurrent use? That<b=
r>
&gt; is, as opposed to what you might assume to be sequential use based on<=
br>
&gt; the current specification.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; FWIW, it should be possible to remove the sequencing field from<br>
&gt; NEW_CONNECTION_ID after making this change.=C2=A0 The only reason left=
 for<br>
&gt; sequential connection ID use is to give the server the ability to know=
<br>
&gt; when certain connection IDs no longer need to be available.=C2=A0 A se=
rver<br>
&gt; might then be able to clean up associated state and even reuse them.<b=
r>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Of course, that likely only makes sense if the server is creating<br>
&gt; explicit mappings for each, which - as discussed at the interim -<br>
&gt; isn&#39;t super practical in many deployments.=C2=A0 Right now, I thin=
k that<br>
&gt; the assumption is an assumption only, and that relying on strictly<br>
&gt; linear use of connection IDs would be unwise.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
</div></blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a114b33e4e790530564300df2--


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From: Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 09:56:07 +0900
Message-ID: <CANatvzwoih1zXo6iG3XL=xM3xmN-QX_fiSb5wBBUdmdr926URw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
To: "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>
Cc: Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>,  =?UTF-8?Q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>,  Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
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2018-01-31 19:00 GMT+09:00 Eggert, Lars <lars@netapp.com>:
> On 2018-1-31, at 10:52, Gorry Fairhurst <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk> wrote:
>> +1 - Simply: This *is* complicated and seems to add little.
>
> So as an implementor (chair hat off), this adds very little to the overall complexity of the protocol.

+1

The algorithm defined in the PR is easy to implement.

When using OpenSSL what you need to do is:

* when switching to a new pn_key, call EVP_EncryptInit_ex to setup a
CTR cipher (e.g., EVP_aes_128_ctr, EVP_chacha20) along with the pn_key
passed as the argument.

* for each packet, call EVP_EncryptInit_ex to set the IV to the 16
bytes of the AEAD ciphertext, then call EVP_EncryptUpdate to obtain
the encrypted packet number

Decryption is exactly the same as encryption, since it is CTR mode.

To me it seems that using packet number encryption actually simplifies
the implementation, since we no longer need to care about randomizing
the initial packet number or implement special measures to avoid
linkability when switching to a new CID.

> Lars



-- 
Kazuho Oku


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To: Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>, "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>
References: <CABkgnnVyo3MmWtVULiV=FJTnR528qfY8-OmKGWAs0bCvri-a_g@mail.gmail.com> <1F7FB3B8-A94C-4354-9944-FB09FB8DB68B@trammell.ch> <CABcZeBMbwdwyC9TxxHBLYaZKfNB-FG2wCGjqUZ_mNR-A1R47FA@mail.gmail.com> <9096e5ec-581e-875a-b1dd-bff0b05206fd@huitema.net> <CABkgnnWRQSAufwPss+qf=xAzCwRYeNNH8XLPm3yFaHxOb+ba4g@mail.gmail.com> <BF80500A-6277-45DC-8525-9C3FE138B76D@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <5A7191E0.6010003@erg.abdn.ac.uk> <5214AD93-8376-4B25-922F-AF5551CC2E95@netapp.com> <CANatvzwoih1zXo6iG3XL=xM3xmN-QX_fiSb5wBBUdmdr926URw@mail.gmail.com>
Cc: Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, =?UTF-8?Q?Mirja_K=c3=bchlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
From: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
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Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
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On 2/1/2018 2:56 PM, Kazuho Oku wrote:
> 2018-01-31 19:00 GMT+09:00 Eggert, Lars <lars@netapp.com>:
>> On 2018-1-31, at 10:52, Gorry Fairhurst <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk> wrote:
>>> +1 - Simply: This *is* complicated and seems to add little.
>> So as an implementor (chair hat off), this adds very little to the overall complexity of the protocol.
> +1
>
> The algorithm defined in the PR is easy to implement.
>
> When using OpenSSL what you need to do is:
>
> * when switching to a new pn_key, call EVP_EncryptInit_ex to setup a
> CTR cipher (e.g., EVP_aes_128_ctr, EVP_chacha20) along with the pn_key
> passed as the argument.
>
> * for each packet, call EVP_EncryptInit_ex to set the IV to the 16
> bytes of the AEAD ciphertext, then call EVP_EncryptUpdate to obtain
> the encrypted packet number
>
> Decryption is exactly the same as encryption, since it is CTR mode.
>
> To me it seems that using packet number encryption actually simplifies
> the implementation, since we no longer need to care about randomizing
> the initial packet number or implement special measures to avoid
> linkability when switching to a new CID.

+1.

By the way, I wrote a small test vector for the PN encryption using AES,
at
https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/wiki/Test-vector-for-AES-packet-number-encryption.

-- Christian Huitema


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Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
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Sent from my iPhone

> On 2 Feb 2018, at 01:47, Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> Brian, I can come up with a middlebox design that is trying to be "helpful=
" but ends up causing PN ossification, but as you suggest this requires the b=
ox to be dumb about versions. So, meh.

The insight hiding in my proposal about rapid versioning is exactly this: we=
 should have a goal to minimize the deployability of boxes that are dumb abo=
ut versions. Grease the version negotiation mechanism here is fake: it prote=
cts the codepoints but not the whole mechanism. As long as there is only one=
 version you=E2=80=99ll get boxes that don=E2=80=99t need to care about trac=
king VN to know what=E2=80=99s going on. If version 2 follows on the heels o=
f (or deploys simultaneously with) version 1, there will be fewer (none) of t=
hose boxes deployed.

> The other benefit of this scheme is that acks can go back to 1 byte PNs in=
 ack frames for many connections,=20

You get that with the random offset proposal as well.

As far as I can see the benefits of this proposal are (1) it lets us presupp=
ose a single-sequence-number design for multipath in version 2, which has so=
me nice properties; and (2) it lets us dispense with all the messiness of PN=
 jumps on intentional migration. The first of these seems meh, the second is=
 a little more convincing: packet number jumping is not pretty.

> as the true packet number will start at 0 (boo!) or 1 (yay!).

I actually have strong opinions on both sides of this argument, so I think I=
=E2=80=99ll go off in the corner and have a pointless fight with myself on t=
his one.

Cheers,

Brian

> On Feb 1, 2018 12:09 AM, "Brian Trammell (IETF)" <ietf@trammell.ch> wrote:=

> hi Jana, all,
>=20
> > On 1 Feb 2018, at 03:46, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com> wrote:
> >
> > I like this proposal for the ossification reason that Roberto described,=
 but I also like it because it really simplifies things from an implementati=
on perspective.
>=20
> There seems to be a largely unquestioned assumption that packet number enc=
ryption has utility for ossification prevention. I am not convinced of this.=

>=20
> Our experience with TLS greasing shows that placing random values in field=
s that would otherwise largely be static over the lifetime of the protocol i=
mproves the ability to use those fields later. Packet number encryption is g=
reasing only by analogy. "Field X has value Y" is a fundamentally different o=
bservation than "The values of field X over time are governed by function F"=
, and I'm not sure that intuition in the simpler case applies directly to th=
e more complicated one.
>=20
> Specifically, for packet number encryption, the assumption appears to be t=
hat in-network devices will deploy during the operational lifetime of QUIC v=
1 that will make use of the observation that packet numbers monotonically in=
crease, in a way that will impair the deployment of QUIC vN > 1 that does no=
t have packet numbers that monotonically increase, or packet numbers that ap=
pear at a different location in the header. In other words, these devices wi=
ll fail on this new version of QUIC in such a way that it will impair servic=
e to endpoints using QUIC vN.
>=20
> Analogies to the TCP sequence number here are a bit flawed. The most impor=
tant difference is that the open nature of TCP's wire image means that usage=
 of the sequence number isn't limited to observation: on-path devices can ch=
ange it, and forge or delay ACKs based on it. The only thing an on-path devi=
ce can do with a QUIC packet with a packet number it doesn't like is to drop=
 it. This function might have some utility as part of an in-network QUIC gar=
bage filter, as part of an anti-DDoS system, but any such device would need t=
o track the version number as well (indeed, tracking version negotiation and=
 handshaking would be a useful primitive here in its own right), and would t=
herefore have enough information to not break on new versions it knows about=
.
>=20
> (Note we specifically don't care about the case where devices making use o=
f this observation stop working in a way that the end-to-end properties of Q=
UIC vN are preserved: the invariants as of a given version are the public wi=
re-image interface to the protocol, anything else is at-your-own-risk, no-us=
er-servicable-parts-inside).
>=20
> I suspect that similar arguments can be had about all but the simplest pro=
posed applications of greasing to functions more complex than "the value of f=
ield X is always Y or Z". The example of packet number tracking points to an=
 anti-ossification approach that I have much more confidence in, though:
>=20
> The vigorous and meaningful exercise of the version negotiation and versio=
n coexistence systems built into QUIC would force agility on on-path devices=
. The earlier we do this, the more effective it would be. I've already said t=
his in other contexts, but I'll explicitly suggest it here: let's do QUIC 2,=
 and soon (say, July 2019?), and use version negotiation *itself* as a metho=
d to "grease" the version negotiation mechanism along with the rest of the h=
eader.
>=20
> > We currently have packet number gaps to be used with new CIDs, but these=
 are the same packet numbers on the wire as within the transport. So, when u=
sed with connection migration or after quiescence, the sender and receiver o=
f ACKs has to deal with potentially large gaps... this is encodable on the w=
ire, sure, but these gaps are unnecessary within the transport.
> >
> > Encrypting packet numbers reduces complexity in that you get a packet nu=
mber gap on the wire without having to explicitly model it inside the transp=
ort. The transport machinery starts packet numbers at 0, increments it by 1 i=
rrespective of migration or quiescence, and the ACK frames similarly carry t=
he plaintext packet number. Separating what's used within the transport and w=
hat's visible on the wire allows you to do things like use multiple CIDs wit=
hin the same 5-tuple.
>=20
> This is a more convincing argument for packet number encryption -- it does=
 seem hard to get this elegance in the transport while having a non-triviall=
y-linkable wire image without it.
>=20
> > I see it as a clean separation of concerns, with consequent simplificati=
on in implementation and an additional degree of freedom.
> >
> > I'm not convinced of the value of packet number in measuring reordering d=
egree, since this can be trivially done by looking at the IP ID field for pa=
ckets on the same 5-tuple.
>=20
> For IPv4 packets, on implementations where IPID is not randomized, yes. I d=
on't have numbers on how prevalent these are; in any case, where it isn't ra=
ndomized, that's arguably a bug that should be fixed. Should the guidance in=
 the manageability draft, then, be "use IPv4 if you care about loss and reor=
dering detection"? I am not optimistic about the chances of that getting pas=
t the IESG. ;)
>=20
> Cheers,
>=20
> Brian
>=20
> > On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 6:00 PM, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.co=
m> wrote:
> > With some light editing for quoting purposes...
> >
> > On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 12:02 PM, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com> wrote:
> > >> Or do you mean CIDs 1-3 may be used on any of the 5-tuples A-C, for t=
he same
> > >> communicating peers  Alice'sPhone and Bob'sBankServer93?
> > >
> > > The latter assuming we allow the server to specify it.
> >
> > I find "assuming we allow the server to specify *it*" to be strangely cr=
yptic.
> >
> > To be clear, my operating assumption is while that servers can provide
> > multiple connection IDs, those connection IDs need to be usable on any
> > 5-tuple.  Are you suggesting that a server might need to signal where
> > a connection is usable?  (I can see how that might make sense, but it
> > isn't possible with the protocol as specified.)  Or are you suggesting
> > that there might need to be some signal that allows clients to
> > distinguish between connection IDs that are for concurrent use? That
> > is, as opposed to what you might assume to be sequential use based on
> > the current specification.
> >
> > FWIW, it should be possible to remove the sequencing field from
> > NEW_CONNECTION_ID after making this change.  The only reason left for
> > sequential connection ID use is to give the server the ability to know
> > when certain connection IDs no longer need to be available.  A server
> > might then be able to clean up associated state and even reuse them.
> >
> > Of course, that likely only makes sense if the server is creating
> > explicit mappings for each, which - as discussed at the interim -
> > isn't super practical in many deployments.  Right now, I think that
> > the assumption is an assumption only, and that relying on strictly
> > linear use of connection IDs would be unwise.
> >
> >
>=20
>=20

--Apple-Mail-72F30DF4-7A3A-4B58-9DB5-10816DDC44EB
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><br><br><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">Sent=
 from my iPhone</div><div><br>On 2 Feb 2018, at 01:47, Martin Duke &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:martin.h.duke@gmail.com">martin.h.duke@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:=
<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"auto">Brian, I can c=
ome up with a middlebox design that is trying to be "helpful" but ends up ca=
using PN ossification, but as you suggest this requires the box to be dumb a=
bout versions. So, meh.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The insi=
ght hiding in my proposal about rapid versioning is exactly this: we should h=
ave a goal to minimize the deployability of boxes that are dumb about versio=
ns. Grease the version negotiation mechanism here is fake: it protects the c=
odepoints but not the whole mechanism. As long as there is only one version y=
ou=E2=80=99ll get boxes that don=E2=80=99t need to care about tracking VN to=
 know what=E2=80=99s going on. If version 2 follows on the heels of (or depl=
oys simultaneously with) version 1, there will be fewer (none) of those boxe=
s deployed.</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"auto"><div d=
ir=3D"auto">The other benefit of this scheme is that acks can go back to 1 b=
yte PNs in ack frames for many connections,&nbsp;</div></div></div></blockqu=
ote><div><br></div><div>You get that with the random offset proposal as well=
.</div><div><br></div><div>As far as I can see the benefits of this proposal=
 are (1) it lets us presuppose a single-sequence-number design for multipath=
 in version 2, which has some nice properties; and (2) it lets us dispense w=
ith all the messiness of PN jumps on intentional migration. The first of the=
se seems meh, the second is a little more convincing: packet number jumping i=
s not pretty.</div><div><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"auto=
"><div dir=3D"auto"><font color=3D"#000000"><span style=3D"background-color:=
 rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">as the true packet number will start at 0 (boo!) o=
r 1 (yay!).</span></font></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I actu=
ally have strong opinions on both sides of this argument, so I think I=E2=80=
=99ll go off in the corner and have a pointless fight with myself on this on=
e.</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div><br></div><div>Brian</div><br>=
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmai=
l_quote">On Feb 1, 2018 12:09 AM, "Brian Trammell (IETF)" &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:ietf@trammell.ch">ietf@trammell.ch</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution=
"><blockquote class=3D"quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=
c solid;padding-left:1ex">hi Jana, all,<br>
<div class=3D"quoted-text"><br>
&gt; On 1 Feb 2018, at 03:46, Jana Iyengar &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jri@google.=
com">jri@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I like this proposal for the ossification reason that Roberto described=
, but I also like it because it really simplifies things from an implementat=
ion perspective.<br>
<br>
</div>There seems to be a largely unquestioned assumption that packet number=
 encryption has utility for ossification prevention. I am not convinced of t=
his.<br>
<br>
Our experience with TLS greasing shows that placing random values in fields t=
hat would otherwise largely be static over the lifetime of the protocol impr=
oves the ability to use those fields later. Packet number encryption is grea=
sing only by analogy. "Field X has value Y" is a fundamentally different obs=
ervation than "The values of field X over time are governed by function F", a=
nd I'm not sure that intuition in the simpler case applies directly to the m=
ore complicated one.<br>
<br>
Specifically, for packet number encryption, the assumption appears to be tha=
t in-network devices will deploy during the operational lifetime of QUIC v1 t=
hat will make use of the observation that packet numbers monotonically incre=
ase, in a way that will impair the deployment of QUIC vN &gt; 1 that does no=
t have packet numbers that monotonically increase, or packet numbers that ap=
pear at a different location in the header. In other words, these devices wi=
ll fail on this new version of QUIC in such a way that it will impair servic=
e to endpoints using QUIC vN.<br>
<br>
Analogies to the TCP sequence number here are a bit flawed. The most importa=
nt difference is that the open nature of TCP's wire image means that usage o=
f the sequence number isn't limited to observation: on-path devices can chan=
ge it, and forge or delay ACKs based on it. The only thing an on-path device=
 can do with a QUIC packet with a packet number it doesn't like is to drop i=
t. This function might have some utility as part of an in-network QUIC garba=
ge filter, as part of an anti-DDoS system, but any such device would need to=
 track the version number as well (indeed, tracking version negotiation and h=
andshaking would be a useful primitive here in its own right), and would the=
refore have enough information to not break on new versions it knows about.<=
br>
<br>
(Note we specifically don't care about the case where devices making use of t=
his observation stop working in a way that the end-to-end properties of QUIC=
 vN are preserved: the invariants as of a given version are the public wire-=
image interface to the protocol, anything else is at-your-own-risk, no-user-=
servicable-parts-<wbr>inside).<br>
<br>
I suspect that similar arguments can be had about all but the simplest propo=
sed applications of greasing to functions more complex than "the value of fi=
eld X is always Y or Z". The example of packet number tracking points to an a=
nti-ossification approach that I have much more confidence in, though:<br>
<br>
The vigorous and meaningful exercise of the version negotiation and version c=
oexistence systems built into QUIC would force agility on on-path devices. T=
he earlier we do this, the more effective it would be. I've already said thi=
s in other contexts, but I'll explicitly suggest it here: let's do QUIC 2, a=
nd soon (say, July 2019?), and use version negotiation *itself* as a method t=
o "grease" the version negotiation mechanism along with the rest of the head=
er.<br>
<div class=3D"quoted-text"><br>
&gt; We currently have packet number gaps to be used with new CIDs, but thes=
e are the same packet numbers on the wire as within the transport. So, when u=
sed with connection migration or after quiescence, the sender and receiver o=
f ACKs has to deal with potentially large gaps... this is encodable on the w=
ire, sure, but these gaps are unnecessary within the transport.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Encrypting packet numbers reduces complexity in that you get a packet n=
umber gap on the wire without having to explicitly model it inside the trans=
port. The transport machinery starts packet numbers at 0, increments it by 1=
 irrespective of migration or quiescence, and the ACK frames similarly carry=
 the plaintext packet number. Separating what's used within the transport an=
d what's visible on the wire allows you to do things like use multiple CIDs w=
ithin the same 5-tuple.<br>
<br>
</div>This is a more convincing argument for packet number encryption -- it d=
oes seem hard to get this elegance in the transport while having a non-trivi=
ally-linkable wire image without it.<br>
<div class=3D"quoted-text"><br>
&gt; I see it as a clean separation of concerns, with consequent simplificat=
ion in implementation and an additional degree of freedom.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I'm not convinced of the value of packet number in measuring reordering=
 degree, since this can be trivially done by looking at the IP ID field for p=
ackets on the same 5-tuple.<br>
<br>
</div>For IPv4 packets, on implementations where IPID is not randomized, yes=
. I don't have numbers on how prevalent these are; in any case, where it isn=
't randomized, that's arguably a bug that should be fixed. Should the guidan=
ce in the manageability draft, then, be "use IPv4 if you care about loss and=
 reordering detection"? I am not optimistic about the chances of that gettin=
g past the IESG. ;)<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
Brian<br>
<div class=3D"elided-text"><br>
&gt; On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 6:00 PM, Martin Thomson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:m=
artin.thomson@gmail.com">martin.thomson@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; With some light editing for quoting purposes...<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 12:02 PM, Roberto Peon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fen=
ix@fb.com">fenix@fb.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Or do you mean CIDs 1-3 may be used on any of the 5-tuples A-C=
, for the same<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; communicating peers&nbsp; Alice'sPhone and Bob'sBankServer93?<=
br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; The latter assuming we allow the server to specify it.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I find "assuming we allow the server to specify *it*" to be strangely c=
ryptic.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; To be clear, my operating assumption is while that servers can provide<=
br>
&gt; multiple connection IDs, those connection IDs need to be usable on any<=
br>
&gt; 5-tuple.&nbsp; Are you suggesting that a server might need to signal wh=
ere<br>
&gt; a connection is usable?&nbsp; (I can see how that might make sense, but=
 it<br>
&gt; isn't possible with the protocol as specified.)&nbsp; Or are you sugges=
ting<br>
&gt; that there might need to be some signal that allows clients to<br>
&gt; distinguish between connection IDs that are for concurrent use? That<br=
>
&gt; is, as opposed to what you might assume to be sequential use based on<b=
r>
&gt; the current specification.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; FWIW, it should be possible to remove the sequencing field from<br>
&gt; NEW_CONNECTION_ID after making this change.&nbsp; The only reason left f=
or<br>
&gt; sequential connection ID use is to give the server the ability to know<=
br>
&gt; when certain connection IDs no longer need to be available.&nbsp; A ser=
ver<br>
&gt; might then be able to clean up associated state and even reuse them.<br=
>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Of course, that likely only makes sense if the server is creating<br>
&gt; explicit mappings for each, which - as discussed at the interim -<br>
&gt; isn't super practical in many deployments.&nbsp; Right now, I think tha=
t<br>
&gt; the assumption is an assumption only, and that relying on strictly<br>
&gt; linear use of connection IDs would be unwise.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
</div></blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></blockquote></body></html>=

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Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
To: "Brian Trammell (IETF)" <ietf@trammell.ch>, Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>
Cc: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>, Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>,  Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>,  =?UTF-8?Q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>,  Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>
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 and (2) it lets us dispense with all the messiness of PN jumps on
intentional migration. The first of these seems meh, the second is a little
more convincing: packet number jumping is not pretty.


I have proposed a defence against optimistic ACK attack the avoids the use
of packet number gaps and which makes it mandatory for implementations to
support:
https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1092

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<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><b=
lockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq"><span><div dir=3D"auto"><div><br=
>=C2=A0and (2) it lets us
dispense with all the messiness of PN jumps on intentional
migration. The first of these seems meh, the second is a little
more convincing: packet number jumping is not pretty.</div>
<div><br></div></div></span></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I have propose=
d a defence against optimistic ACK attack the avoids the use of packet numb=
er gaps and which makes it mandatory for implementations to support:</div><=
div><a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1092">https://g=
ithub.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1092</a></div><div><br></div></body></h=
tml>

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Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
From: =?utf-8?Q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
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Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 13:24:14 +0100
Cc: "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>, Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
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References: <CABkgnnVyo3MmWtVULiV=FJTnR528qfY8-OmKGWAs0bCvri-a_g@mail.gmail.com> <1F7FB3B8-A94C-4354-9944-FB09FB8DB68B@trammell.ch> <CABcZeBMbwdwyC9TxxHBLYaZKfNB-FG2wCGjqUZ_mNR-A1R47FA@mail.gmail.com> <9096e5ec-581e-875a-b1dd-bff0b05206fd@huitema.net> <CABkgnnWRQSAufwPss+qf=xAzCwRYeNNH8XLPm3yFaHxOb+ba4g@mail.gmail.com> <BF80500A-6277-45DC-8525-9C3FE138B76D@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <5A7191E0.6010003@erg.abdn.ac.uk> <5214AD93-8376-4B25-922F-AF5551CC2E95@netapp.com> <CANatvzwoih1zXo6iG3XL=xM3xmN-QX_fiSb5wBBUdmdr926URw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>
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Please see below.

> Am 02.02.2018 um 01:56 schrieb Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>:
>=20
> 2018-01-31 19:00 GMT+09:00 Eggert, Lars <lars@netapp.com>:
>> On 2018-1-31, at 10:52, Gorry Fairhurst <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk> wrote:
>>> +1 - Simply: This *is* complicated and seems to add little.
>>=20
>> So as an implementor (chair hat off), this adds very little to the =
overall complexity of the protocol.
>=20
> +1
>=20
> The algorithm defined in the PR is easy to implement.

I didn=E2=80=99t say that it is too complex (I actually explicitly said =
in my original mail  it is not very complex) but it adds additional =
complexity to a protocol that is already complex and doesn=E2=80=99t =
provide much benefit from my point of view but can be an additional =
source for errors. After all it must also be possible to implement QUIC =
if you just read the final specs and have not participated in the wg =
design discussion or can easy ask a clarifying question on the list.

>=20
> When using OpenSSL what you need to do is:

If you don=E2=80=99t want to use OpenSSL or are in an environment where =
you can use such a library, it is definitely more complex than this.

>=20
> * when switching to a new pn_key, call EVP_EncryptInit_ex to setup a
> CTR cipher (e.g., EVP_aes_128_ctr, EVP_chacha20) along with the pn_key
> passed as the argument.
>=20
> * for each packet, call EVP_EncryptInit_ex to set the IV to the 16
> bytes of the AEAD ciphertext, then call EVP_EncryptUpdate to obtain
> the encrypted packet number
>=20
> Decryption is exactly the same as encryption, since it is CTR mode.
>=20
> To me it seems that using packet number encryption actually simplifies
> the implementation, since we no longer need to care about randomizing
> the initial packet number or implement special measures to avoid
> linkability when switching to a new CID.

Choosing a random number is definitely less complex than encrypting =
something. It might simply your current code because you are using a =
library that implements the complexity already. And special measures =
when switch to a new path are needed anyway for the CID.

Mirja




>=20
>> Lars
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> Kazuho Oku


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Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
From: =?utf-8?Q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
In-Reply-To: <CAGD1bZbH2qz2WL0YsOJJ=j7V-Lkt_V6K1RQ+5ZhMAzOWEAvdGQ@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 13:27:33 +0100
Cc: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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References: <CABkgnnVyo3MmWtVULiV=FJTnR528qfY8-OmKGWAs0bCvri-a_g@mail.gmail.com> <1F7FB3B8-A94C-4354-9944-FB09FB8DB68B@trammell.ch> <CABcZeBMbwdwyC9TxxHBLYaZKfNB-FG2wCGjqUZ_mNR-A1R47FA@mail.gmail.com> <9096e5ec-581e-875a-b1dd-bff0b05206fd@huitema.net> <CABkgnnWRQSAufwPss+qf=xAzCwRYeNNH8XLPm3yFaHxOb+ba4g@mail.gmail.com> <BF80500A-6277-45DC-8525-9C3FE138B76D@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <827BA6F8-5CA8-420A-B18B-60D8BC134A46@fb.com> <CA+9kkMDvp64NspznEuVy2tu8Eh1xmFkXu5S0AtDwbZKQ9Kq2fA@mail.gmail.com> <7F0C8A1D-1CE8-44E1-B3A4-ACFCB19D1F12@fb.com> <CABkgnnVsx9ohKO95bsDbYpM+bgWb-HQiVW2Yn=XWG458uzNgtg@mail.gmail.com> <CAGD1bZbH2qz2WL0YsOJJ=j7V-Lkt_V6K1RQ+5ZhMAzOWEAvdGQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>
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Hi Jana,

one point below, just to clarify this explicitly.

> Am 01.02.2018 um 03:46 schrieb Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>:
>=20
> I like this proposal for the ossification reason that Roberto =
described, but I also like it because it really simplifies things from =
an implementation perspective.
>=20
> We currently have packet number gaps to be used with new CIDs, but =
these are the same packet numbers on the wire as within the transport. =
So, when used with connection migration or after quiescence, the sender =
and receiver of ACKs has to deal with potentially large gaps... this is =
encodable on the wire, sure, but these gaps are unnecessary within the =
transport.
>=20
> Encrypting packet numbers reduces complexity in that you get a packet =
number gap on the wire without having to explicitly model it inside the =
transport. The transport machinery starts packet numbers at 0, =
increments it by 1 irrespective of migration or quiescence, and the ACK =
frames similarly carry the plaintext packet number. Separating what's =
used within the transport and what's visible on the wire allows you to =
do things like use multiple CIDs within the same 5-tuple.=20
>=20
> I see it as a clean separation of concerns, with consequent =
simplification in implementation and an additional degree of freedom.

You also have this with an random offset. You internally start with 0 or =
1 and just add or remove the offset from the PN in the wire image. Done. =
I like this separation a lot and think that is a  great change as it =
does make implementation easier and reduces overhead. However, these are =
two different things. There is no need to encrypt the PM just for that.

Mirja



>=20
> I'm not convinced of the value of packet number in measuring =
reordering degree, since this can be trivially done by looking at the IP =
ID field for packets on the same 5-tuple.
>=20
> On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 6:00 PM, Martin Thomson =
<martin.thomson@gmail.com> wrote:
> With some light editing for quoting purposes...
>=20
> On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 12:02 PM, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com> wrote:
> >> Or do you mean CIDs 1-3 may be used on any of the 5-tuples A-C, for =
the same
> >> communicating peers  Alice'sPhone and Bob'sBankServer93?
> >
> > The latter assuming we allow the server to specify it.
>=20
> I find "assuming we allow the server to specify *it*" to be strangely =
cryptic.
>=20
> To be clear, my operating assumption is while that servers can provide
> multiple connection IDs, those connection IDs need to be usable on any
> 5-tuple.  Are you suggesting that a server might need to signal where
> a connection is usable?  (I can see how that might make sense, but it
> isn't possible with the protocol as specified.)  Or are you suggesting
> that there might need to be some signal that allows clients to
> distinguish between connection IDs that are for concurrent use? That
> is, as opposed to what you might assume to be sequential use based on
> the current specification.
>=20
> FWIW, it should be possible to remove the sequencing field from
> NEW_CONNECTION_ID after making this change.  The only reason left for
> sequential connection ID use is to give the server the ability to know
> when certain connection IDs no longer need to be available.  A server
> might then be able to clean up associated state and even reuse them.
>=20
> Of course, that likely only makes sense if the server is creating
> explicit mappings for each, which - as discussed at the interim -
> isn't super practical in many deployments.  Right now, I think that
> the assumption is an assumption only, and that relying on strictly
> linear use of connection IDs would be unwise.
>=20
>=20


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From: Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 22:13:47 +0900
Message-ID: <CANatvzy6-keF9kiGRJ1T0=LnNY6TZOegADLyGN7L9K13ZuOL0g@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
To: =?UTF-8?Q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
Cc: "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>, Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>,  Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
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2018-02-02 21:24 GMT+09:00 Mirja K=C3=BChlewind <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.et=
hz.ch>:
> Please see below.
>
>> Am 02.02.2018 um 01:56 schrieb Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>:
>>
>> 2018-01-31 19:00 GMT+09:00 Eggert, Lars <lars@netapp.com>:
>>> On 2018-1-31, at 10:52, Gorry Fairhurst <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk> wrote:
>>>> +1 - Simply: This *is* complicated and seems to add little.
>>>
>>> So as an implementor (chair hat off), this adds very little to the over=
all complexity of the protocol.
>>
>> +1
>>
>> The algorithm defined in the PR is easy to implement.
>
> I didn=E2=80=99t say that it is too complex (I actually explicitly said i=
n my original mail  it is not very complex) but it adds additional complexi=
ty to a protocol that is already complex and doesn=E2=80=99t provide much b=
enefit from my point of view but can be an additional source for errors.

Regarding CID migration, I would argue that the current draft is
already complex due to the use of HKDF based on a derived key to
calculate the gap. But it still has issues (please refer to
https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1034).

Switching to packet number encryption resolves those issues. You no
longer need to do special calculation of the packet number upon CID
migration.

Having a consistent logic to handle packet numbers is IMO a better
choice than requiring complex operations in a corner case.

> After all it must also be possible to implement QUIC if you just read the=
 final specs and have not participated in the wg design discussion or can e=
asy ask a clarifying question on the list.
>
>>
>> When using OpenSSL what you need to do is:
>
> If you don=E2=80=99t want to use OpenSSL or are in an environment where y=
ou can use such a library, it is definitely more complex than this.

I agree that the mileage may vary depending on the crypto library you use.

However, I would also argue that it would be fairly natural to assume
that you have access to the underlying cipher of an AEAD cipher that
you would be using (e.g. AES-ECB (or AES-CTR) for AES-GCM, Chacha20
for Chacha20-Poly1305). Then, it is easy to construct the proposed
logic, though you might need to write code specific to each cipher.

>
>>
>> * when switching to a new pn_key, call EVP_EncryptInit_ex to setup a
>> CTR cipher (e.g., EVP_aes_128_ctr, EVP_chacha20) along with the pn_key
>> passed as the argument.
>>
>> * for each packet, call EVP_EncryptInit_ex to set the IV to the 16
>> bytes of the AEAD ciphertext, then call EVP_EncryptUpdate to obtain
>> the encrypted packet number
>>
>> Decryption is exactly the same as encryption, since it is CTR mode.
>>
>> To me it seems that using packet number encryption actually simplifies
>> the implementation, since we no longer need to care about randomizing
>> the initial packet number or implement special measures to avoid
>> linkability when switching to a new CID.
>
> Choosing a random number is definitely less complex than encrypting somet=
hing. It might simply your current code because you are using a library tha=
t implements the complexity already. And special measures when switch to a =
new path are needed anyway for the CID.

I agree that calculating a random number is not a big deal. Regarding
the amount of the special measures in relation to CID migration,
please refer to my comment above.

>
> Mirja
>
>
>
>
>>
>>> Lars
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Kazuho Oku
>



--=20
Kazuho Oku


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From: Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>
To: "ekinnear@apple.com" <ekinnear@apple.com>
CC: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>, "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, "De Schepper, Koen (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" <koen.de_schepper@nokia-bell-labs.com>
Subject: RE: ECN in QUIC connection migration
Thread-Topic: ECN in QUIC connection migration
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Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 14:40:49 +0000
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From: "De Schepper, Koen (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" <koen.de_schepper@nokia-bell-labs.com>
To: "ekinnear@apple.com" <ekinnear@apple.com>, Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>
CC: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>, "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
Subject: RE: ECN in QUIC connection migration
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Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 14:44:24 +0000
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Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 10:08:13 -0500
From: Dmitri Tikhonov <dtikhonov@litespeedtech.com>
To: "Brian Trammell (IETF)" <ietf@trammell.ch>
Cc: Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>, Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, Mirja =?iso-8859-1?Q?K=FChlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
Message-ID: <20180202150812.GA12313@ubuntu-dmitri>
Mail-Followup-To: "Brian Trammell (IETF)" <ietf@trammell.ch>, Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>, Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, Mirja =?iso-8859-1?Q?K=FChlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
References: <827BA6F8-5CA8-420A-B18B-60D8BC134A46@fb.com> <CA+9kkMDvp64NspznEuVy2tu8Eh1xmFkXu5S0AtDwbZKQ9Kq2fA@mail.gmail.com> <7F0C8A1D-1CE8-44E1-B3A4-ACFCB19D1F12@fb.com> <CABkgnnVsx9ohKO95bsDbYpM+bgWb-HQiVW2Yn=XWG458uzNgtg@mail.gmail.com> <CAGD1bZbH2qz2WL0YsOJJ=j7V-Lkt_V6K1RQ+5ZhMAzOWEAvdGQ@mail.gmail.com> <A236CE0B-24C1-41F0-A80D-7DD966D291B7@trammell.ch> <CAM4esxTj6Jv4nv975SDzczx9QEG-18WNm7UC7WxDcjyN+PeVgA@mail.gmail.com> <CAM4esxR_L9OvkEQ3G8z=yK1VgPQDJTMWeB2ts7CSgtV_de9MiQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAM4esxRVecQUJZwSv-+fV43CyTER-OY7H7WZGAKU0yT84qn6aA@mail.gmail.com> <26AC90FF-EDC0-431A-86D7-8F78555B5DB9@trammell.ch>
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On Fri, Feb 02, 2018 at 10:35:41AM +0100, Brian Trammell (IETF) wrote:
> > On 2 Feb 2018, at 01:47, Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com> wrote:
> > as the true packet number will start at 0 (boo!) or 1 (yay!).
> 
> I actually have strong opinions on both sides of this argument, so
> I think I’ll go off in the corner and have a pointless fight with
> myself on this one.

How strong is the preference for starting off the packet sequence with
zero?  Zero is such a convenient (and efficient) special value,
programming-wise.

  - Dmitri.


From nobody Fri Feb  2 07:14:03 2018
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Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 16:13:54 +0100
In-Reply-To: <20180202150812.GA12313@ubuntu-dmitri>
Cc: Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>, =?utf-8?Q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>, Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>
To: Dmitri Tikhonov <dtikhonov@litespeedtech.com>
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> On 2 Feb 2018, at 16:08, Dmitri Tikhonov <dtikhonov@litespeedtech.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> On Fri, Feb 02, 2018 at 10:35:41AM +0100, Brian Trammell (IETF) wrote:
>>> On 2 Feb 2018, at 01:47, Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>>> as the true packet number will start at 0 (boo!) or 1 (yay!).
>>=20
>> I actually have strong opinions on both sides of this argument, so
>> I think I=E2=80=99ll go off in the corner and have a pointless fight =
with
>> myself on this one.
>=20
> How strong is the preference for starting off the packet sequence with
> zero?  Zero is such a convenient (and efficient) special value,
> programming-wise.

Yeah, in this case, starting at one is far preferable so as to use 0 as =
the special value, but counting from one in general just feels dirty to =
people who grew up with C.

(This bikeshed has been painted so often that it's made of paint, =
though, so I apologize for even referring to it in passing.)



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From: "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK)" <thomas.fossati@nokia.com>
To: "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>, Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>
CC: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, =?utf-8?B?TWlyamEgS8O8aGxld2luZA==?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>, "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK)" <thomas.fossati@nokia.com>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
Thread-Topic: Packet number encryption
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From: Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2018 18:30:53 -0800
Message-ID: <CAGD1bZab0GaZFsHwC+nw3AxxC4VusxMJ6oDanzk3dSDdWKAXdw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
To: "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK)" <thomas.fossati@nokia.com>
Cc: "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>, Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>,  Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>,  =?UTF-8?Q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>,  QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
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A few points as I catch up on this thread.

First, I'll remind folks that QUIC is an encrypted transport. I say this
because the cost of this operation is trivial in the context of encrypting
every packet. The cost is borne at the servers and not at middleboxes, so
the additional crypto cost is basically trivial.

Second, this simplifies and increases robustness of implementation.
Avoiding random PN jumps, as Kazuho points out, makes special-casing of
code unnecessary. Special code that is exercised occasionally is a strong
bug attractor, and I would strongly argue for as few of those as possible
in implementation.

Third, yes, ossification is a real concern. A simple example: using
increasing packet numbers as a signature for detecting QUIC. Even if you
argue against this example, there are innovative ways in which ossification
will happen. This is based on a true story: We had no idea how GQUIC's
flags field could get ossified, the value that was being used commonly
became used as a signature for QUIC traffic (see Section 7.5 in the SIGCOMM
QUIC paper
<https://static.googleusercontent.com/media/research.google.com/en//pubs/archive/46403.pdf>
).

There's a win here in terms of implementation complexity and several
implementers have said so. There's a win in terms of ossification and our
experience says so. There's a potential loss of manageability, in being
able to detect reordering. This is the trade-off, and I am still in favor
of encrypting packet numbers.

On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 7:32 AM, Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK) <
thomas.fossati@nokia.com> wrote:

> On 31/01/2018, 10:06, "QUIC on behalf of Eggert, Lars" <
> quic-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of lars@netapp.com> wrote:
> > On 2018-1-31, at 10:52, Gorry Fairhurst <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk> wrote:
> > > +1 - Simply: This *is* complicated and seems to add little.
> >
> > So as an implementor (chair hat off), this adds very little to the
> > overall complexity of the protocol.
>
> This doesn't sound great.  It's a bit like saying that adding the Higgs
> mechanism to the standard model's lagrangian doesn't make it much more
> complicate :-)  (*)
>
> More seriously though, I'd like to point out that it is not just about
> implementation complexity, it's also the energy cost per packet that is
> quite crucial.  I haven't done the math but ISTM that bringing in
> another batch of non-optional crypto computation on a per packet basis
> is not going to move the needle in the right direction for stacks that
> run on low power (IoT).
>
> This is not a catastrophe - we have CoAP and a (D)TLS profile - but
> neither it's ideal, since cutting off the small things from the wider
> ecosystem creates an artificial gap which then will need a middlebox to
> bridge.  (Sure, we have specified the behaviour of a similar box
> already, but it'd be really better if the extra translation logic could
> be avoided in the first place.)
>
> I guess what I'm saying is that PN encryption being a core mechanism
> that can't be negotiated at handshake time reduces our ability to later
> profile QUIC for the IoT, which would be a bit unlucky.
>
> So the question is: would it be possible to make this property a
> configurable knob instead?
>
> (*) https://www.symmetrymagazine.org/article/the-deconstructed-
> standard-model-equation
>
>

--089e0826ea904779120564459ec9
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<div dir=3D"ltr">A few points as I catch up on this thread.<div><br></div><=
div>First, I&#39;ll remind folks that QUIC is an encrypted transport. I say=
 this because the cost of this operation is trivial in the context of encry=
pting every packet. The cost is borne at the servers and not at middleboxes=
, so the additional crypto cost is basically trivial.</div><div><br></div><=
div>Second, this simplifies and increases robustness of implementation. Avo=
iding random PN jumps, as Kazuho points out, makes special-casing of code u=
nnecessary. Special code that is exercised occasionally is a strong bug att=
ractor, and I would strongly argue for as few of those as possible in imple=
mentation.</div><div><br></div><div>Third, yes, ossification is a real conc=
ern. A simple example: using increasing packet numbers as a signature for d=
etecting QUIC. Even if you argue against this example, there are innovative=
 ways in which ossification will happen. This is based on a true story:=C2=
=A0<span style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:small;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:n=
ormal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0p=
x;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:=
rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initia=
l;float:none;display:inline">We had no idea how GQUIC&#39;s flags field cou=
ld get ossified, the value that was being used commonly became used as a si=
gnature for QUIC traffic (see Section 7.5 in the <a href=3D"https://static.=
googleusercontent.com/media/research.google.com/en//pubs/archive/46403.pdf"=
 class=3D"cremed">SIGCOMM QUIC paper</a>).</span></div><div><br></div><div>=
There&#39;s a win here in terms of implementation complexity and several im=
plementers have said so. There&#39;s a win in terms of ossification and our=
 experience says so. There&#39;s a potential loss of manageability, in bein=
g able to detect reordering. This is the trade-off, and I am still in favor=
 of encrypting packet numbers.</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 7:32 AM, Fossati, Thomas (N=
okia - GB/Cambridge, UK) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:thomas.fos=
sati@nokia.com" target=3D"_blank">thomas.fossati@nokia.com</a>&gt;</span> w=
rote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D"">On 31/01/2018, 10:=
06, &quot;QUIC on behalf of Eggert, Lars&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic-b=
ounces@ietf.org">quic-bounces@ietf.org</a> on behalf of <a href=3D"mailto:l=
ars@netapp.com">lars@netapp.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; On 2018-1-31, at 10:52, Gorry Fairhurst &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gorry@er=
g.abdn.ac.uk">gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; +1 - Simply: This *is* complicated and seems to add little.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; So as an implementor (chair hat off), this adds very little to the<br>
&gt; overall complexity of the protocol.<br>
<br>
</span>This doesn&#39;t sound great.=C2=A0 It&#39;s a bit like saying that =
adding the Higgs<br>
mechanism to the standard model&#39;s lagrangian doesn&#39;t make it much m=
ore<br>
complicate :-)=C2=A0 (*)<br>
<br>
More seriously though, I&#39;d like to point out that it is not just about<=
br>
implementation complexity, it&#39;s also the energy cost per packet that is=
<br>
quite crucial.=C2=A0 I haven&#39;t done the math but ISTM that bringing in<=
br>
another batch of non-optional crypto computation on a per packet basis<br>
is not going to move the needle in the right direction for stacks that<br>
run on low power (IoT).<br>
<br>
This is not a catastrophe - we have CoAP and a (D)TLS profile - but<br>
neither it&#39;s ideal, since cutting off the small things from the wider<b=
r>
ecosystem creates an artificial gap which then will need a middlebox to<br>
bridge.=C2=A0 (Sure, we have specified the behaviour of a similar box<br>
already, but it&#39;d be really better if the extra translation logic could=
<br>
be avoided in the first place.)<br>
<br>
I guess what I&#39;m saying is that PN encryption being a core mechanism<br=
>
that can&#39;t be negotiated at handshake time reduces our ability to later=
<br>
profile QUIC for the IoT, which would be a bit unlucky.<br>
<br>
So the question is: would it be possible to make this property a<br>
configurable knob instead?<br>
<br>
(*) <a href=3D"https://www.symmetrymagazine.org/article/the-deconstructed-s=
tandard-model-equation" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.sy=
mmetrymagazine.<wbr>org/article/the-deconstructed-<wbr>standard-model-equat=
ion</a><br>
<br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

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From: Piotr Galecki <piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.com>
To: Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>, "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK)" <thomas.fossati@nokia.com>
CC: Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, =?utf-8?B?TWlyamEgS8O8aGxld2luZA==?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>, "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: Packet number encryption
Thread-Topic: Packet number encryption
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Subject: Re: Re: Packet number encryption
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On -10/01/-28163 20:59, Jana Iyengar wrote:
>
> There's a win here in terms of implementation complexity and several
> implementers have said so. There's a win in terms of ossification and our
> experience says so. There's a potential loss of manageability, in being able to
> detect reordering. This is the trade-off, and I am still in favor of encrypting
> packet numbers.


Given this, what's your position re the 4-bit subsequence number in clear 
proposed earlier ? Is it okay, or has it got too much potential for a signature ?

-Alex

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From nobody Sat Feb  3 06:04:28 2018
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Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
To: Piotr Galecki <piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.com>
Cc: Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>,  "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK)" <thomas.fossati@nokia.com>, Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>,  Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>, Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>, =?UTF-8?Q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>,  QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
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On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 9:59 PM, Piotr Galecki <
piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.com> wrote:

> What is the group=E2=80=99s proposal for allowing network monitoring tool=
s to
> detect packet retransmission or packet reordering ?
>

quic retransmits data, it does not retransmit packets. I'm not trying to be
pedantic - that's the answer to your question because obviously data needs
keys. Cooperating parties need to cooperate to share keying material...
this is something wireshark and tls have worked out in the past.



> These metrics are pretty straightforward to measure for TCP flows.
>
> Tools like Wireshark can analyze packets and spot issues.
>
> How can the network tools perform this kind of measurements for QUIC flow=
s
> if PN field is encrypted?
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Jana Iyengar
> *Sent:* Friday, February 02, 2018 9:31 PM
> *To:* Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK) <thomas.fossati@nokia.co=
m
> >
> *Cc:* Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>; Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>=
;
> Mirja K=C3=BChlewind <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>; Christian Huitema=
 <
> huitema@huitema.net>; Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>; Eggert, Lars <
> lars@netapp.com>; QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>; Martin Thomson <
> martin.thomson@gmail.com>
> *Subject:* Re: Packet number encryption
>
>
>
> A few points as I catch up on this thread.
>
>
>
> First, I'll remind folks that QUIC is an encrypted transport. I say this
> because the cost of this operation is trivial in the context of encryptin=
g
> every packet. The cost is borne at the servers and not at middleboxes, so
> the additional crypto cost is basically trivial.
>
>
>
> Second, this simplifies and increases robustness of implementation.
> Avoiding random PN jumps, as Kazuho points out, makes special-casing of
> code unnecessary. Special code that is exercised occasionally is a strong
> bug attractor, and I would strongly argue for as few of those as possible
> in implementation.
>
>
>
> Third, yes, ossification is a real concern. A simple example: using
> increasing packet numbers as a signature for detecting QUIC. Even if you
> argue against this example, there are innovative ways in which ossificati=
on
> will happen. This is based on a true story: We had no idea how GQUIC's
> flags field could get ossified, the value that was being used commonly
> became used as a signature for QUIC traffic (see Section 7.5 in the SIGCO=
MM
> QUIC paper
> <https://static.googleusercontent.com/media/research.google.com/en/pubs/a=
rchive/46403.pdf>
> ).
>
>
>
> There's a win here in terms of implementation complexity and several
> implementers have said so. There's a win in terms of ossification and our
> experience says so. There's a potential loss of manageability, in being
> able to detect reordering. This is the trade-off, and I am still in favor
> of encrypting packet numbers.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 7:32 AM, Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK=
)
> <thomas.fossati@nokia.com> wrote:
>
> On 31/01/2018, 10:06, "QUIC on behalf of Eggert, Lars" <
> quic-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of lars@netapp.com> wrote:
> > On 2018-1-31, at 10:52, Gorry Fairhurst <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk> wrote:
> > > +1 - Simply: This *is* complicated and seems to add little.
> >
> > So as an implementor (chair hat off), this adds very little to the
> > overall complexity of the protocol.
>
> This doesn't sound great.  It's a bit like saying that adding the Higgs
> mechanism to the standard model's lagrangian doesn't make it much more
> complicate :-)  (*)
>
> More seriously though, I'd like to point out that it is not just about
> implementation complexity, it's also the energy cost per packet that is
> quite crucial.  I haven't done the math but ISTM that bringing in
> another batch of non-optional crypto computation on a per packet basis
> is not going to move the needle in the right direction for stacks that
> run on low power (IoT).
>
> This is not a catastrophe - we have CoAP and a (D)TLS profile - but
> neither it's ideal, since cutting off the small things from the wider
> ecosystem creates an artificial gap which then will need a middlebox to
> bridge.  (Sure, we have specified the behaviour of a similar box
> already, but it'd be really better if the extra translation logic could
> be avoided in the first place.)
>
> I guess what I'm saying is that PN encryption being a core mechanism
> that can't be negotiated at handshake time reduces our ability to later
> profile QUIC for the IoT, which would be a bit unlucky.
>
> So the question is: would it be possible to make this property a
> configurable knob instead?
>
> (*) https://www.symmetrymagazine.org/article/the-deconstructed-
> standard-model-equation
>
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On F=
ri, Feb 2, 2018 at 9:59 PM, Piotr Galecki <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.com" target=3D"_blank">piotr_galecki@=
affirmednetworks.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex=
">





<div link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" lang=3D"EN-US">
<div class=3D"m_2358257736698771714WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">What is the group=E2=80=99s proposal for allowing ne=
twork monitoring tools to detect packet retransmission or packet reordering=
 ?</p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>quic retransmits data, i=
t does not retransmit packets. I&#39;m not trying to be pedantic - that&#39=
;s the answer to your question because obviously data needs keys. Cooperati=
ng parties need to cooperate to share keying material... this is something =
wireshark and tls have worked out in the past. <br></div><div><br></div><di=
v>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"pu=
rple" lang=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"m_2358257736698771714WordSection1"><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">These metrics are pretty straightforward to measure =
for TCP flows.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Tools like Wireshark can analyze packets and spot is=
sues.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">How can the network tools perform this kind of measu=
rements for QUIC flows if PN field is encrypted?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> QUIC [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bou=
nces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Jana Iyengar<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 02, 2018 9:31 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:thomas.fossati@nokia.com" target=3D"_blank">thomas.fossati@nokia.com</a>&g=
t;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Gorry Fairhust &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk" targe=
t=3D"_blank">gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk</a>&gt;; Eric Rescorla &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;; Mirja K=C3=BChlew=
ind &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch" target=3D"_blank=
">mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.<wbr>ch</a>&gt;; Christian Huitema &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:huitema@huitema.net" target=3D"_blank">huitema@huitema.net</a>=
&gt;; Brian Trammell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@trammell.ch" target=3D"_bla=
nk">ietf@trammell.ch</a>&gt;; Eggert, Lars &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lars@netap=
p.com" target=3D"_blank">lars@netapp.com</a>&gt;; QUIC WG &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
 Martin Thomson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.thomson@gmail.com" target=3D"_=
blank">martin.thomson@gmail.com</a>&gt;<span class=3D""><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Packet number encryption<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">A few points as I catch up on this thread.<u></u><u>=
</u></p><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">First, I&#39;ll remind folks that QUIC is an encrypt=
ed transport. I say this because the cost of this operation is trivial in t=
he context of encrypting every packet. The cost is borne at the servers and=
 not at middleboxes, so the additional
 crypto cost is basically trivial.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Second, this simplifies and increases robustness of =
implementation. Avoiding random PN jumps, as Kazuho points out, makes speci=
al-casing of code unnecessary. Special code that is exercised occasionally =
is a strong bug attractor, and I would
 strongly argue for as few of those as possible in implementation.<u></u><u=
></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Third, yes, ossification is a real concern. A simple=
 example: using increasing packet numbers as a signature for detecting QUIC=
. Even if you argue against this example, there are innovative ways in whic=
h ossification will happen. This is
 based on a true story:=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:#222222;background:white">We had no idea h=
ow GQUIC&#39;s flags field could get ossified, the value that was being use=
d commonly became used as a signature for QUIC traffic
 (see Section 7.5 in the <a href=3D"https://static.googleusercontent.com/me=
dia/research.google.com/en/pubs/archive/46403.pdf" target=3D"_blank">
SIGCOMM QUIC paper</a>).</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">There&#39;s a win here in terms of implementation co=
mplexity and several implementers have said so. There&#39;s a win in terms =
of ossification and our experience says so. There&#39;s a potential loss of=
 manageability, in being able to detect reordering.
 This is the trade-off, and I am still in favor of encrypting packet number=
s.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div></div></div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 7:32 AM, Fossati, Thomas (Nok=
ia - GB/Cambridge, UK) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:thomas.fossati@nokia.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">thomas.fossati@nokia.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">On 31/01/2018, 10:06,=
 &quot;QUIC on behalf of Eggert, Lars&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic-boun=
ces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic-bounces@ietf.org</a> on behalf of
<a href=3D"mailto:lars@netapp.com" target=3D"_blank">lars@netapp.com</a>&gt=
; wrote:<br>
&gt; On 2018-1-31, at 10:52, Gorry Fairhurst &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gorry@er=
g.abdn.ac.uk" target=3D"_blank">gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; +1 - Simply: This *is* complicated and seems to add little.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; So as an implementor (chair hat off), this adds very little to the<br>
&gt; overall complexity of the protocol.<br>
<br>
This doesn&#39;t sound great.=C2=A0 It&#39;s a bit like saying that adding =
the Higgs<br>
mechanism to the standard model&#39;s lagrangian doesn&#39;t make it much m=
ore<br>
complicate :-)=C2=A0 (*)<br>
<br>
More seriously though, I&#39;d like to point out that it is not just about<=
br>
implementation complexity, it&#39;s also the energy cost per packet that is=
<br>
quite crucial.=C2=A0 I haven&#39;t done the math but ISTM that bringing in<=
br>
another batch of non-optional crypto computation on a per packet basis<br>
is not going to move the needle in the right direction for stacks that<br>
run on low power (IoT).<br>
<br>
This is not a catastrophe - we have CoAP and a (D)TLS profile - but<br>
neither it&#39;s ideal, since cutting off the small things from the wider<b=
r>
ecosystem creates an artificial gap which then will need a middlebox to<br>
bridge.=C2=A0 (Sure, we have specified the behaviour of a similar box<br>
already, but it&#39;d be really better if the extra translation logic could=
<br>
be avoided in the first place.)<br>
<br>
I guess what I&#39;m saying is that PN encryption being a core mechanism<br=
>
that can&#39;t be negotiated at handshake time reduces our ability to later=
<br>
profile QUIC for the IoT, which would be a bit unlucky.<br>
<br>
So the question is: would it be possible to make this property a<br>
configurable knob instead?<br>
<br>
(*) <a href=3D"https://www.symmetrymagazine.org/article/the-deconstructed-s=
tandard-model-equation" target=3D"_blank">
https://www.symmetrymagazine.<wbr>org/article/the-deconstructed-<wbr>standa=
rd-model-equation</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--94eb2c08ca8032778605644f4e6d--


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From: "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge)" <thomas.fossati@nokia.com>
To: Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>
CC: "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>, Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, "Brian Trammell" <ietf@trammell.ch>, =?utf-8?B?TWlyamEgS8O8aGxld2luZA==?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>, "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge)" <thomas.fossati@nokia.com>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
Thread-Topic: Packet number encryption
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Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
To: "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge)" <thomas.fossati@nokia.com>, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>
Cc: Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, =?UTF-8?Q?Mirja_K=c3=bchlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>, "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
References: <CABkgnnVyo3MmWtVULiV=FJTnR528qfY8-OmKGWAs0bCvri-a_g@mail.gmail.com> <1F7FB3B8-A94C-4354-9944-FB09FB8DB68B@trammell.ch> <CABcZeBMbwdwyC9TxxHBLYaZKfNB-FG2wCGjqUZ_mNR-A1R47FA@mail.gmail.com> <9096e5ec-581e-875a-b1dd-bff0b05206fd@huitema.net> <CABkgnnWRQSAufwPss+qf=xAzCwRYeNNH8XLPm3yFaHxOb+ba4g@mail.gmail.com> <BF80500A-6277-45DC-8525-9C3FE138B76D@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <5A7191E0.6010003@erg.abdn.ac.uk> <5214AD93-8376-4B25-922F-AF5551CC2E95@netapp.com> <F990E064-E6F8-41A3-B791-F776C9955E15@nokia.com> <CAGD1bZab0GaZFsHwC+nw3AxxC4VusxMJ6oDanzk3dSDdWKAXdw@mail.gmail.com> <6670AEA8-081F-4523-8F1C-DF5B26AF5A0F@nokia.com>
From: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
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From: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
To: "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge)" <thomas.fossati@nokia.com>,
 Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>
Cc: Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>,
 =?UTF-8?Q?Mirja_K=c3=bchlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>,
 Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>,
 "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>,
 Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2fe4293f-1634-a27c-835b-33c8b24c23c5@cs.tcd.ie>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
References: <CABkgnnVyo3MmWtVULiV=FJTnR528qfY8-OmKGWAs0bCvri-a_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <1F7FB3B8-A94C-4354-9944-FB09FB8DB68B@trammell.ch>
 <CABcZeBMbwdwyC9TxxHBLYaZKfNB-FG2wCGjqUZ_mNR-A1R47FA@mail.gmail.com>
 <9096e5ec-581e-875a-b1dd-bff0b05206fd@huitema.net>
 <CABkgnnWRQSAufwPss+qf=xAzCwRYeNNH8XLPm3yFaHxOb+ba4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <BF80500A-6277-45DC-8525-9C3FE138B76D@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
 <5A7191E0.6010003@erg.abdn.ac.uk>
 <5214AD93-8376-4B25-922F-AF5551CC2E95@netapp.com>
 <F990E064-E6F8-41A3-B791-F776C9955E15@nokia.com>
 <CAGD1bZab0GaZFsHwC+nw3AxxC4VusxMJ6oDanzk3dSDdWKAXdw@mail.gmail.com>
 <6670AEA8-081F-4523-8F1C-DF5B26AF5A0F@nokia.com>
In-Reply-To: <6670AEA8-081F-4523-8F1C-DF5B26AF5A0F@nokia.com>

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On 03/02/18 15:04, Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge) wrote:
> Going back for a second to IoT: imagine using short header with no CID =
&
> tiny payloads - e.g., the typical 2-4 bytes periodic sensor reading.  I=
n
> this case, PN encryption would increase the crypto compute per packet b=
y
> something around 50%, which can make a substantial difference on
> low-power, battery operated devices.

Sorry - isn't the duration for which the radio is turned on
a far more important factor for power consumption in such
cases? I don't recall a real case being described where the
kind of crypto being described here would make a significant
difference but maybe you can describe one?

Ta,
S.

--=20
PGP key change time for me.
New-ID 7B172BEA; old-ID 805F8DA2 expires Jan 24 2018.
NewWithOld sigs in keyservers.
Sorry if that mucks something up;-)

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From: Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>
To: Piotr Galecki <piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.com>, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>, "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK)" <thomas.fossati@nokia.com>
CC: Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>, Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>, =?Windows-1252?Q?Mirja_K=FChlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
Thread-Topic: Packet number encryption
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Ossification:
In the past tcp middleboxes expected in-order, monotonically increasing off=
sets and tried to fix reordering before forwarding. This middlebox behavior=
, predicated on observable flows, prevented deployment of things which woul=
d have made tcp more efficient.

 This is the kind of non-theoretical ossification that drove the creation o=
f QUIC in the first place.

Network monitoring:
Networks may always wrap the packet(s) they have received with whatever dat=
a they wish, and unwrap before forwarding. This can allow any network to un=
derstand ordering,  loss, etc within its boundaries.

Debugging:
Debugging of flows can still happen for flows that wish to be debugged-- th=
e QUIC connection's key material(s) can be shared manually and used by the =
debugging tool. This is how one debugs http2, https, etc. already today.

-=3DR



-------- Original message --------
From: Piotr Galecki <piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.com>
Date: 2/2/18 7:00 PM (GMT-08:00)
To: Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>, "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, =
UK)" <thomas.fossati@nokia.com>
Cc: Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, Ch=
ristian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>, Br=
ian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>, Mirja K=FChlewind <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee=
.ethz.ch>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.co=
m>
Subject: RE: Packet number encryption

What is the group=92s proposal for allowing network monitoring tools to det=
ect packet retransmission or packet reordering ?
These metrics are pretty straightforward to measure for TCP flows.
Tools like Wireshark can analyze packets and spot issues.
How can the network tools perform this kind of measurements for QUIC flows =
if PN field is encrypted?


From: QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jana Iyengar
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2018 9:31 PM
To: Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK) <thomas.fossati@nokia.com>
Cc: Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>; Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>; Mi=
rja K=FChlewind <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>; Christian Huitema <huite=
ma@huitema.net>; Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>; Eggert, Lars <lars@neta=
pp.com>; QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>; Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption

A few points as I catch up on this thread.

First, I'll remind folks that QUIC is an encrypted transport. I say this be=
cause the cost of this operation is trivial in the context of encrypting ev=
ery packet. The cost is borne at the servers and not at middleboxes, so the=
 additional crypto cost is basically trivial.

Second, this simplifies and increases robustness of implementation. Avoidin=
g random PN jumps, as Kazuho points out, makes special-casing of code unnec=
essary. Special code that is exercised occasionally is a strong bug attract=
or, and I would strongly argue for as few of those as possible in implement=
ation.

Third, yes, ossification is a real concern. A simple example: using increas=
ing packet numbers as a signature for detecting QUIC. Even if you argue aga=
inst this example, there are innovative ways in which ossification will hap=
pen. This is based on a true story: We had no idea how GQUIC's flags field =
could get ossified, the value that was being used commonly became used as a=
 signature for QUIC traffic (see Section 7.5 in the SIGCOMM QUIC paper<http=
s://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__static.googleusercontent=
.com_media_research.google.com_en_pubs_archive_46403.pdf&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3D5VD=
0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=3DC0sUo-LFNBaYfyoaCsf6TA&m=3DSY87I4v_IqTCGOds-j5NCOwk=
Q0cJcYHGyKdXmMIVn6I&s=3DU9o6dI-dwzKwvXHvvmv7WtVm84puvxhaP0cN2of3VvA&e=3D>).

There's a win here in terms of implementation complexity and several implem=
enters have said so. There's a win in terms of ossification and our experie=
nce says so. There's a potential loss of manageability, in being able to de=
tect reordering. This is the trade-off, and I am still in favor of encrypti=
ng packet numbers.

On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 7:32 AM, Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK) =
<thomas.fossati@nokia.com<mailto:thomas.fossati@nokia.com>> wrote:
On 31/01/2018, 10:06, "QUIC on behalf of Eggert, Lars" <quic-bounces@ietf.o=
rg<mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of lars@netapp.com<mailto:lars@n=
etapp.com>> wrote:
> On 2018-1-31, at 10:52, Gorry Fairhurst <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk<mailto:gorr=
y@erg.abdn.ac.uk>> wrote:
> > +1 - Simply: This *is* complicated and seems to add little.
>
> So as an implementor (chair hat off), this adds very little to the
> overall complexity of the protocol.

This doesn't sound great.  It's a bit like saying that adding the Higgs
mechanism to the standard model's lagrangian doesn't make it much more
complicate :-)  (*)

More seriously though, I'd like to point out that it is not just about
implementation complexity, it's also the energy cost per packet that is
quite crucial.  I haven't done the math but ISTM that bringing in
another batch of non-optional crypto computation on a per packet basis
is not going to move the needle in the right direction for stacks that
run on low power (IoT).

This is not a catastrophe - we have CoAP and a (D)TLS profile - but
neither it's ideal, since cutting off the small things from the wider
ecosystem creates an artificial gap which then will need a middlebox to
bridge.  (Sure, we have specified the behaviour of a similar box
already, but it'd be really better if the extra translation logic could
be avoided in the first place.)

I guess what I'm saying is that PN encryption being a core mechanism
that can't be negotiated at handshake time reduces our ability to later
profile QUIC for the IoT, which would be a bit unlucky.

So the question is: would it be possible to make this property a
configurable knob instead?

(*) https://www.symmetrymagazine.org/article/the-deconstructed-standard-mod=
el-equation<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.symm=
etrymagazine.org_article_the-2Ddeconstructed-2Dstandard-2Dmodel-2Dequation&=
d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3D5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=3DC0sUo-LFNBaYfyoaCsf6TA&m=3DSY87I4=
v_IqTCGOds-j5NCOwkQ0cJcYHGyKdXmMIVn6I&s=3DetIO0AUHiJm8zucsWaTgo-XULFisCMoG2=
iDvwC69s9Q&e=3D>


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<div>Ossification:</div>
<div>In the past tcp middleboxes expected in-order, monotonically increasin=
g offsets and tried to fix reordering before forwarding. This middlebox beh=
avior, predicated on observable flows, prevented deployment of things which=
 would have made tcp more efficient.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>&nbsp;This is the kind of non-theoretical ossification that drove the =
creation of QUIC in the first place.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Network monitoring:</div>
<div>Networks may always wrap the packet(s) they have received with whateve=
r data they wish, and unwrap before forwarding. This can allow any network =
to understand ordering,&nbsp; loss, etc within its boundaries.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Debugging:</div>
<div>Debugging of flows can still happen for flows that wish to be debugged=
-- the QUIC connection's key material(s) can be shared manually and used by=
 the debugging tool. This is how one debugs http2, https, etc. already toda=
y.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-=3DR</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-------- Original message --------</div>
<div>From: Piotr Galecki &lt;piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.com&gt; </div>
<div>Date: 2/2/18 7:00 PM (GMT-08:00) </div>
<div>To: Jana Iyengar &lt;jri@google.com&gt;, &quot;Fossati, Thomas (Nokia =
- GB/Cambridge, UK)&quot; &lt;thomas.fossati@nokia.com&gt;
</div>
<div>Cc: Gorry Fairhust &lt;gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk&gt;, Eric Rescorla &lt;ekr=
@rtfm.com&gt;, Christian Huitema &lt;huitema@huitema.net&gt;, &quot;Eggert,=
 Lars&quot; &lt;lars@netapp.com&gt;, Brian Trammell &lt;ietf@trammell.ch&gt=
;, Mirja K=FChlewind &lt;mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch&gt;, QUIC WG &lt;q=
uic@ietf.org&gt;,
 Martin Thomson &lt;martin.thomson@gmail.com&gt; </div>
<div>Subject: RE: Packet number encryption </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">What is the group=92s proposal for allowing network =
monitoring tools to detect packet retransmission or packet reordering ?</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">These metrics are pretty straightforward to measure =
for TCP flows.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Tools like Wireshark can analyze packets and spot is=
sues.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">How can the network tools perform this kind of measu=
rements for QUIC flows if PN field is encrypted?</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] <b>=
On Behalf Of
</b>Jana Iyengar<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 02, 2018 9:31 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK) &lt;thomas.fossati@no=
kia.com&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Gorry Fairhust &lt;gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk&gt;; Eric Rescorla &lt;e=
kr@rtfm.com&gt;; Mirja K=FChlewind &lt;mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch&gt;;=
 Christian Huitema &lt;huitema@huitema.net&gt;; Brian Trammell &lt;ietf@tra=
mmell.ch&gt;; Eggert, Lars &lt;lars@netapp.com&gt;; QUIC WG &lt;quic@ietf.o=
rg&gt;;
 Martin Thomson &lt;martin.thomson@gmail.com&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Packet number encryption</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">A few points as I catch up on this thread.</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">First, I'll remind folks that QUIC is an encrypted t=
ransport. I say this because the cost of this operation is trivial in the c=
ontext of encrypting every packet. The cost is borne at the servers and not=
 at middleboxes, so the additional
 crypto cost is basically trivial.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Second, this simplifies and increases robustness of =
implementation. Avoiding random PN jumps, as Kazuho points out, makes speci=
al-casing of code unnecessary. Special code that is exercised occasionally =
is a strong bug attractor, and I would
 strongly argue for as few of those as possible in implementation.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Third, yes, ossification is a real concern. A simple=
 example: using increasing packet numbers as a signature for detecting QUIC=
. Even if you argue against this example, there are innovative ways in whic=
h ossification will happen. This is
 based on a true story:&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&=
quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif; color:#222222; background:white">We had no ide=
a how GQUIC's flags field could get ossified, the value that was being used=
 commonly became used as a signature for QUIC traffic
 (see Section 7.5 in the <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/ur=
l?u=3Dhttps-3A__static.googleusercontent.com_media_research.google.com_en_p=
ubs_archive_46403.pdf&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3D5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&amp;r=
=3DC0sUo-LFNBaYfyoaCsf6TA&amp;m=3DSY87I4v_IqTCGOds-j5NCOwkQ0cJcYHGyKdXmMIVn=
6I&amp;s=3DU9o6dI-dwzKwvXHvvmv7WtVm84puvxhaP0cN2of3VvA&amp;e=3D">
SIGCOMM QUIC paper</a>).</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">There's a win here in terms of implementation comple=
xity and several implementers have said so. There's a win in terms of ossif=
ication and our experience says so. There's a potential loss of manageabili=
ty, in being able to detect reordering.
 This is the trade-off, and I am still in favor of encrypting packet number=
s.</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 7:32 AM, Fossati, Thomas (Nok=
ia - GB/Cambridge, UK) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:thomas.fossati@nokia.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">thomas.fossati@nokia.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none; border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt; padding:=
0in 0in 0in 6.0pt; margin-left:4.8pt; margin-right:0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">On 31/01/2018, 10:06,=
 &quot;QUIC on behalf of Eggert, Lars&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic-boun=
ces@ietf.org">quic-bounces@ietf.org</a> on behalf of
<a href=3D"mailto:lars@netapp.com">lars@netapp.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; On 2018-1-31, at 10:52, Gorry Fairhurst &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gorry@er=
g.abdn.ac.uk">gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; &#43;1 - Simply: This *is* complicated and seems to add little.<b=
r>
&gt;<br>
&gt; So as an implementor (chair hat off), this adds very little to the<br>
&gt; overall complexity of the protocol.<br>
<br>
This doesn't sound great.&nbsp; It's a bit like saying that adding the Higg=
s<br>
mechanism to the standard model's lagrangian doesn't make it much more<br>
complicate :-)&nbsp; (*)<br>
<br>
More seriously though, I'd like to point out that it is not just about<br>
implementation complexity, it's also the energy cost per packet that is<br>
quite crucial.&nbsp; I haven't done the math but ISTM that bringing in<br>
another batch of non-optional crypto computation on a per packet basis<br>
is not going to move the needle in the right direction for stacks that<br>
run on low power (IoT).<br>
<br>
This is not a catastrophe - we have CoAP and a (D)TLS profile - but<br>
neither it's ideal, since cutting off the small things from the wider<br>
ecosystem creates an artificial gap which then will need a middlebox to<br>
bridge.&nbsp; (Sure, we have specified the behaviour of a similar box<br>
already, but it'd be really better if the extra translation logic could<br>
be avoided in the first place.)<br>
<br>
I guess what I'm saying is that PN encryption being a core mechanism<br>
that can't be negotiated at handshake time reduces our ability to later<br>
profile QUIC for the IoT, which would be a bit unlucky.<br>
<br>
So the question is: would it be possible to make this property a<br>
configurable knob instead?<br>
<br>
(*) <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.s=
ymmetrymagazine.org_article_the-2Ddeconstructed-2Dstandard-2Dmodel-2Dequati=
on&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3D5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&amp;r=3DC0sUo-LFNBaYfyoaCs=
f6TA&amp;m=3DSY87I4v_IqTCGOds-j5NCOwkQ0cJcYHGyKdXmMIVn6I&amp;s=3DetIO0AUHiJ=
m8zucsWaTgo-XULFisCMoG2iDvwC69s9Q&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">
https://www.symmetrymagazine.org/article/the-deconstructed-standard-model-e=
quation</a></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: Piotr Galecki <piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.com>
To: Patrick McManus <pmcmanus@mozilla.com>
CC: Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>, "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK)" <thomas.fossati@nokia.com>, Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>, "Eric Rescorla" <ekr@rtfm.com>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>, Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>, =?utf-8?B?TWlyamEgS8O8aGxld2luZA==?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, "QUIC WG" <quic@ietf.org>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: Packet number encryption
Thread-Topic: Packet number encryption
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Events without label "editorial"

Issues
------
* quicwg/base-drafts (+5/-4/=F0=9F=92=AC41)
  5 issues created:
  - hq Alt-Svc quic parameter and structured headers (by LPardue)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1093
  - Gapless Optimitisk ACK Attack Mitigation (by mikkelfj)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1092
  - Don't overload PING frame semantics (by janaiyengar)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1091
  - Assymetric connection ID (by mikkelfj)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1089
  - Recommend simulating migration after quiescence (by martinthomson)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1087

  11 issues received 41 new comments:
  - #1092 Gapless Optimitisk ACK Attack Mitigation (13 by kazuho, marten-se=
emann, mikkelfj, ianswett, huitema, MikeBishop)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1092
  - #834 Connection ID is not a number (5 by kazuho, ianswett, janaiyengar,=
 MikeBishop, mikkelfj)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/834
  - #1063 Remove *BLOCKED frames (4 by janaiyengar, grmocg, larseggert, ian=
swett)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1063
  - #1085 Handshake failure with Retry and multiple Initial packets (4 by m=
artinthomson, MikeBishop)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1085
  - #1087 Recommend simulating migration after quiescence (4 by martinthoms=
on, janaiyengar, huitema)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1087
  - #1089 Asymmetric connection ID (3 by martinthomson, ianswett, mikkelfj)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1089
  - #38 First flight size restriction (3 by martinthomson, janaiyengar)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/38
  - #1093 hq Alt-Svc quic parameter and structured headers (2 by MikeBishop)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1093
  - #835 How does QPACK delete horizon interact with pushed streams? (1 by =
MikeBishop)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/835
  - #725 Server might be unable to complete handshake due to MAX_STREAM_DAT=
A (1 by MikeBishop)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/725
  - #1081 Avoid tracking bits in Alt-Svc quic=3D parameter (1 by martinthom=
son)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1081

  4 issues closed:
  - How does QPACK delete horizon interact with pushed streams? https://git=
hub.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/835
  - Stream 0 exemption from flow control https://github.com/quicwg/base-dra=
fts/issues/1074
  - First flight size restriction https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/iss=
ues/38
  - SNI requirement for HTTP/QUIC https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/iss=
ues/794



Pull requests
-------------
* quicwg/base-drafts (+3/-7/=F0=9F=92=AC28)
  3 pull requests submitted:
  - Mitigate amplification attacks during handshake (by MikeBishop)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1090
  - Introduce PATH_CHALLENGE and PATH_RESPONSE frames (by janaiyengar)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1086
  - Clarify flow control issues on stream 0 (by MikeBishop)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1082

  7 pull requests received 28 new comments:
  - #1088 A 17 octet connection ID (7 by britram, mcmanus, ekr, martinthoms=
on, mikkelfj)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1088
  - #1024 Expand connection management text  (5 by martinthomson, mikkelfj,=
 LPardue, MikeBishop)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1024
  - #348 Define "httpq" (5 by LPardue, MikeBishop)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/348
  - #1082 Clarify flow control issues on stream 0 (4 by martinthomson, Mike=
Bishop)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1082
  - #1086 Introduces PATH_CHALLENGE and PATH_RESPONSE frames (4 by nibanks,=
 janaiyengar, mikkelfj)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1086
  - #1079 Packet number encryption (2 by martinthomson, britram)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1079
  - #1083 Rationalize stream 0 flow control (1 by martinthomson)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1083

  7 pull requests merged:
  - Clarify flow control issues on stream 0
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1082
  - Mitigate amplification attacks during handshake
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1090
  - Introduces PATH_CHALLENGE and PATH_RESPONSE frames
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1086
  - Include max_ack_delay
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1060
  - Remove mandatory in-order delivery
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1070
  - Version Negotiation doesn't have a packet number
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1078
  - Remove misleading changelog entry
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1084


Repositories tracked by this digest:
-----------------------------------
* https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts

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<body>
<h1>Sunday February 04, 2018</h1>

<p>Events without label "editorial"</p>

<h2>Issues</h2>

<h3>quicwg/base-drafts (+5/-4/=F0=9F=92=AC41)</h3>
  <p class=3D"new">5 issues created:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#1093 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1093">h=
q Alt-Svc quic parameter and structured headers</a> (by LPardue) </li>
  =

  <li>#1092 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1092">G=
apless Optimitisk ACK Attack Mitigation</a> (by mikkelfj) </li>
  =

  <li>#1091 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1091">D=
on&#x27;t overload PING frame semantics</a> (by janaiyengar) </li>
  =

  <li>#1089 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1089">A=
ssymetric connection ID</a> (by mikkelfj) </li>
  =

  <li>#1087 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1087">R=
ecommend simulating migration after quiescence</a> (by martinthomson) <span=
 class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04">-transport</span> <spa=
n class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db">design</span> </li>
  </ul>

  <p>11 issues received 41 new comments:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#1092 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1092">G=
apless Optimitisk ACK Attack Mitigation</a> (13 by kazuho, marten-seemann, =
mikkelfj, ianswett, huitema, MikeBishop) </li>
  =

  <li>#834 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/834">Con=
nection ID is not a number</a> (5 by kazuho, ianswett, janaiyengar, MikeBis=
hop, mikkelfj) <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04">-t=
ransport</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db">d=
esign</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#1063 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1063">R=
emove *BLOCKED frames</a> (4 by janaiyengar, grmocg, larseggert, ianswett) =
<span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04">-transport</span>=
 </li>
  =

  <li>#1085 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1085">H=
andshake failure with Retry and multiple Initial packets</a> (4 by martinth=
omson, MikeBishop) <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04=
">-tls</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db">des=
ign</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#1087 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1087">R=
ecommend simulating migration after quiescence</a> (4 by martinthomson, jan=
aiyengar, huitema) <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04=
">-transport</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76d=
b">design</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#1089 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1089">A=
symmetric connection ID</a> (3 by martinthomson, ianswett, mikkelfj) </li>
  =

  <li>#38 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/38">First=
 flight size restriction</a> (3 by martinthomson, janaiyengar) <span class=
=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04">-tls</span> <span class=3D"l=
abel" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db">design</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#1093 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1093">h=
q Alt-Svc quic parameter and structured headers</a> (2 by MikeBishop) </li>
  =

  <li>#835 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/835">How=
 does QPACK delete horizon interact with pushed streams?</a> (1 by MikeBish=
op) <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04">-http</span> =
<span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db">design</span> </l=
i>
  =

  <li>#725 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/725">Ser=
ver might be unable to complete handshake due to MAX_STREAM_DATA</a> (1 by =
MikeBishop) <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04">-tran=
sport</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db">desi=
gn</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#1081 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1081">A=
void tracking bits in Alt-Svc quic=3D parameter</a> (1 by martinthomson) <s=
pan class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04">-http</span> </li>
  </ul>

  <p>4 issues closed:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#835 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/835">How=
 does QPACK delete horizon interact with pushed streams?</a> <span class=3D=
"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04">-http</span> <span class=3D"lab=
el" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db">design</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#1074 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1074">S=
tream 0 exemption from flow control</a> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"back=
ground-color: #fbca04">-transport</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"bac=
kground-color: #1d76db">design</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#38 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/38">First=
 flight size restriction</a> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-colo=
r: #fbca04">-tls</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1=
d76db">design</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#794 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/794">SNI=
 requirement for HTTP/QUIC</a> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-co=
lor: #fbca04">-http</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color:=
 #1d76db">design</span> </li>
  </ul>



<h2>Pull requests</h2>
<h3>quicwg/base-drafts (+3/-7/=F0=9F=92=AC28)</h3>
  <p class=3D"new">3 pull requests submitted:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#1090 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1090">Mit=
igate amplification attacks during handshake</a> (by MikeBishop) </li>
  =

  <li>#1086 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1086">Int=
roduce PATH_CHALLENGE and PATH_RESPONSE frames</a> (by janaiyengar) </li>
  =

  <li>#1082 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1082">Cla=
rify flow control issues on stream 0</a> (by MikeBishop) </li>
  </ul>

  <p>7 pull requests received 28 new comments:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#1088 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1088">A 1=
7 octet connection ID</a> (7 by britram, mcmanus, ekr, martinthomson, mikke=
lfj) <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04">-transport</=
span> </li>
  =

  <li>#1024 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1024">Exp=
and connection management text </a> (5 by martinthomson, mikkelfj, LPardue,=
 MikeBishop) <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04">-htt=
p</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#348 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/348">Defin=
e &quot;httpq&quot;</a> (5 by LPardue, MikeBishop) <span class=3D"label" st=
yle=3D"background-color: #fbca04">-http</span> <span class=3D"label" style=
=3D"background-color: #006b75">needs-discussion</span> <span class=3D"label=
" style=3D"background-color: #f9d0c4">parked</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#1082 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1082">Cla=
rify flow control issues on stream 0</a> (4 by martinthomson, MikeBishop) <=
/li>
  =

  <li>#1086 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1086">Int=
roduces PATH_CHALLENGE and PATH_RESPONSE frames</a> (4 by nibanks, janaiyen=
gar, mikkelfj) </li>
  =

  <li>#1079 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1079">Pac=
ket number encryption</a> (2 by martinthomson, britram) <span class=3D"labe=
l" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04">-tls</span> <span class=3D"label" st=
yle=3D"background-color: #fbca04">-transport</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#1083 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1083">Rat=
ionalize stream 0 flow control</a> (1 by martinthomson) <span class=3D"labe=
l" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04">-tls</span> <span class=3D"label" st=
yle=3D"background-color: #fbca04">-transport</span> </li>
  </ul>

  <p>7 pull requests merged:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#1082 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1082">Cla=
rify flow control issues on stream 0</a> </li>
  =

  <li>#1090 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1090">Mit=
igate amplification attacks during handshake</a> </li>
  =

  <li>#1086 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1086">Int=
roduces PATH_CHALLENGE and PATH_RESPONSE frames</a> </li>
  =

  <li>#1060 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1060">Inc=
lude max_ack_delay</a> </li>
  =

  <li>#1070 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1070">Rem=
ove mandatory in-order delivery</a> </li>
  =

  <li>#1078 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1078">Ver=
sion Negotiation doesn&#x27;t have a packet number</a> </li>
  =

  <li>#1084 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1084">Rem=
ove misleading changelog entry</a> </li>
  </ul>


<h2>Repositories tracked by this digest:</h2>
<ul class=3D"repos">
  <li><a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts">https://github.com/=
quicwg/base-drafts</a></li>
  </ul>
</body>
</html>

--===============1630453884764046321==--


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From: "Roni Even (A)" <roni.even@huawei.com>
To: Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, Piotr Galecki <piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.com>, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>, "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK)" <thomas.fossati@nokia.com>
CC: Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mirja_K=FChlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>, Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, "Martin Thomson" <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: Packet number encryption
Thread-Topic: Packet number encryption
Thread-Index: AQHTmW31OHIMr4j8BEGT08HQjsZCKqOMgUQAgABeoYCAAAgUAIAAd3KAgAA8YgCAACPEAIAAAiYAgAOBlQCAADHCgIAACBkAgAEGFwCAAWG+cA==
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2018 07:47:06 +0000
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Hi,
Network monitoring:
Networks may always wrap the packet(s) they have received with whatever dat=
a they wish, and unwrap before forwarding. This can allow any network to un=
derstand ordering,  loss, etc within its boundaries.

RE- so you are saying that we can for example  leverage  RTP and define RTP=
 payload for QUIC that will carry QUIC packets, we will just need to resolv=
e the MTU size.
Roni


From: QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roberto Peon
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2018 8:38 PM
To: Piotr Galecki; Jana Iyengar; Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK)
Cc: Gorry Fairhust; Eric Rescorla; Mirja K=FChlewind; Eggert, Lars; Brian T=
rammell; Christian Huitema; QUIC WG; Martin Thomson
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption

Ossification:
In the past tcp middleboxes expected in-order, monotonically increasing off=
sets and tried to fix reordering before forwarding. This middlebox behavior=
, predicated on observable flows, prevented deployment of things which woul=
d have made tcp more efficient.

 This is the kind of non-theoretical ossification that drove the creation o=
f QUIC in the first place.

Network monitoring:
Networks may always wrap the packet(s) they have received with whatever dat=
a they wish, and unwrap before forwarding. This can allow any network to un=
derstand ordering,  loss, etc within its boundaries.

Debugging:
Debugging of flows can still happen for flows that wish to be debugged-- th=
e QUIC connection's key material(s) can be shared manually and used by the =
debugging tool. This is how one debugs http2, https, etc. already today.

-=3DR



-------- Original message --------
From: Piotr Galecki <piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.com<mailto:piotr_galeck=
i@affirmednetworks.com>>
Date: 2/2/18 7:00 PM (GMT-08:00)
To: Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com<mailto:jri@google.com>>, "Fossati, Thomas =
(Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK)" <thomas.fossati@nokia.com<mailto:thomas.fossati=
@nokia.com>>
Cc: Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk<mailto:gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>>, Eri=
c Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com<mailto:ekr@rtfm.com>>, Christian Huitema <huitema@=
huitema.net<mailto:huitema@huitema.net>>, "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com<m=
ailto:lars@netapp.com>>, Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch<mailto:ietf@tramm=
ell.ch>>, Mirja K=FChlewind <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch<mailto:mirja.k=
uehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org<mailto:quic@ietf.org>>, =
Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com<mailto:martin.thomson@gmail.com>>
Subject: RE: Packet number encryption

What is the group's proposal for allowing network monitoring tools to detec=
t packet retransmission or packet reordering ?
These metrics are pretty straightforward to measure for TCP flows.
Tools like Wireshark can analyze packets and spot issues.
How can the network tools perform this kind of measurements for QUIC flows =
if PN field is encrypted?


From: QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jana Iyengar
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2018 9:31 PM
To: Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK) <thomas.fossati@nokia.com<ma=
ilto:thomas.fossati@nokia.com>>
Cc: Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk<mailto:gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>>; Eri=
c Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com<mailto:ekr@rtfm.com>>; Mirja K=FChlewind <mirja.ku=
ehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch<mailto:mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>>; Christian=
 Huitema <huitema@huitema.net<mailto:huitema@huitema.net>>; Brian Trammell =
<ietf@trammell.ch<mailto:ietf@trammell.ch>>; Eggert, Lars <lars@netapp.com<=
mailto:lars@netapp.com>>; QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org<mailto:quic@ietf.org>>; Ma=
rtin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com<mailto:martin.thomson@gmail.com>>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption

A few points as I catch up on this thread.

First, I'll remind folks that QUIC is an encrypted transport. I say this be=
cause the cost of this operation is trivial in the context of encrypting ev=
ery packet. The cost is borne at the servers and not at middleboxes, so the=
 additional crypto cost is basically trivial.

Second, this simplifies and increases robustness of implementation. Avoidin=
g random PN jumps, as Kazuho points out, makes special-casing of code unnec=
essary. Special code that is exercised occasionally is a strong bug attract=
or, and I would strongly argue for as few of those as possible in implement=
ation.

Third, yes, ossification is a real concern. A simple example: using increas=
ing packet numbers as a signature for detecting QUIC. Even if you argue aga=
inst this example, there are innovative ways in which ossification will hap=
pen. This is based on a true story: We had no idea how GQUIC's flags field =
could get ossified, the value that was being used commonly became used as a=
 signature for QUIC traffic (see Section 7.5 in the SIGCOMM QUIC paper<http=
s://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__static.googleusercontent=
.com_media_research.google.com_en_pubs_archive_46403.pdf&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3D5VD=
0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=3DC0sUo-LFNBaYfyoaCsf6TA&m=3DSY87I4v_IqTCGOds-j5NCOwk=
Q0cJcYHGyKdXmMIVn6I&s=3DU9o6dI-dwzKwvXHvvmv7WtVm84puvxhaP0cN2of3VvA&e=3D>).

There's a win here in terms of implementation complexity and several implem=
enters have said so. There's a win in terms of ossification and our experie=
nce says so. There's a potential loss of manageability, in being able to de=
tect reordering. This is the trade-off, and I am still in favor of encrypti=
ng packet numbers.

On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 7:32 AM, Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK) =
<thomas.fossati@nokia.com<mailto:thomas.fossati@nokia.com>> wrote:
On 31/01/2018, 10:06, "QUIC on behalf of Eggert, Lars" <quic-bounces@ietf.o=
rg<mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of lars@netapp.com<mailto:lars@n=
etapp.com>> wrote:
> On 2018-1-31, at 10:52, Gorry Fairhurst <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk<mailto:gorr=
y@erg.abdn.ac.uk>> wrote:
> > +1 - Simply: This *is* complicated and seems to add little.
>
> So as an implementor (chair hat off), this adds very little to the
> overall complexity of the protocol.

This doesn't sound great.  It's a bit like saying that adding the Higgs
mechanism to the standard model's lagrangian doesn't make it much more
complicate :-)  (*)

More seriously though, I'd like to point out that it is not just about
implementation complexity, it's also the energy cost per packet that is
quite crucial.  I haven't done the math but ISTM that bringing in
another batch of non-optional crypto computation on a per packet basis
is not going to move the needle in the right direction for stacks that
run on low power (IoT).

This is not a catastrophe - we have CoAP and a (D)TLS profile - but
neither it's ideal, since cutting off the small things from the wider
ecosystem creates an artificial gap which then will need a middlebox to
bridge.  (Sure, we have specified the behaviour of a similar box
already, but it'd be really better if the extra translation logic could
be avoided in the first place.)

I guess what I'm saying is that PN encryption being a core mechanism
that can't be negotiated at handshake time reduces our ability to later
profile QUIC for the IoT, which would be a bit unlucky.

So the question is: would it be possible to make this property a
configurable knob instead?

(*) https://www.symmetrymagazine.org/article/the-deconstructed-standard-mod=
el-equation<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.symm=
etrymagazine.org_article_the-2Ddeconstructed-2Dstandard-2Dmodel-2Dequation&=
d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3D5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=3DC0sUo-LFNBaYfyoaCsf6TA&m=3DSY87I4=
v_IqTCGOds-j5NCOwkQ0cJcYHGyKdXmMIVn6I&s=3DetIO0AUHiJm8zucsWaTgo-XULFisCMoG2=
iDvwC69s9Q&e=3D>


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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">Network monitoring:<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">Networks may always wrap the packet(=
s) they have received with whatever data they wish, and unwrap before forwa=
rding. This can allow any network to understand ordering,&nbsp;
 loss, etc within its boundaries.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">RE- so you are saying that we can fo=
r example &nbsp;leverage &nbsp;RTP and define RTP payload for QUIC that wil=
l carry QUIC packets, we will just need to resolve the MTU size.<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">Roni<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> QUIC [ma=
ilto:quic-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Roberto Peon<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, February 03, 2018 8:38 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Piotr Galecki; Jana Iyengar; Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambrid=
ge, UK)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Gorry Fairhust; Eric Rescorla; Mirja K=FChlewind; Eggert, Lars; =
Brian Trammell; Christian Huitema; QUIC WG; Martin Thomson<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Packet number encryption<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">Ossification:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">In the past tcp middleboxes expected=
 in-order, monotonically increasing offsets and tried to fix reordering bef=
ore forwarding. This middlebox behavior, predicated on observable
 flows, prevented deployment of things which would have made tcp more effic=
ient.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;This is the kind of non-theore=
tical ossification that drove the creation of QUIC in the first place.<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">Network monitoring:<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">Networks may always wrap the packet(=
s) they have received with whatever data they wish, and unwrap before forwa=
rding. This can allow any network to understand ordering,&nbsp;
 loss, etc within its boundaries.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">Debugging:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">Debugging of flows can still happen =
for flows that wish to be debugged-- the QUIC connection's key material(s) =
can be shared manually and used by the debugging tool. This
 is how one debugs http2, https, etc. already today.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">-=3DR<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">-------- Original message --------<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">From: Piotr Galecki &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.com">piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.co=
m</a>&gt;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">Date: 2/2/18 7:00 PM (GMT-08:00)
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">To: Jana Iyengar &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:jri@google.com">jri@google.com</a>&gt;, &quot;Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - G=
B/Cambridge, UK)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:thomas.fossati@nokia.com">thom=
as.fossati@nokia.com</a>&gt;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">Cc: Gorry Fairhust &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk">gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk</a>&gt;, Eric Rescorla &lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;, Christian Huitema
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:huitema@huitema.net">huitema@huitema.net</a>&gt;, &q=
uot;Eggert, Lars&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lars@netapp.com">lars@netapp.c=
om</a>&gt;, Brian Trammell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@trammell.ch">ietf@tra=
mmell.ch</a>&gt;, Mirja K=FChlewind &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mirja.kuehlewind@=
tik.ee.ethz.ch">mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch</a>&gt;,
 QUIC WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Martin=
 Thomson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.thomson@gmail.com">martin.thomson@gma=
il.com</a>&gt;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">Subject: RE: Packet number encryptio=
n
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">What is the group&#8217;s proposal for allowing netw=
ork monitoring tools to detect packet retransmission or packet reordering ?=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">These metrics are pretty straightforward to measure =
for TCP flows.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Tools like Wireshark can analyze packets and spot is=
sues.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">How can the network tools perform this kind of measu=
rements for QUIC flows if PN field is encrypted?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> QUIC [<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bounces@ie=
tf.org">mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jana Iyengar<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 02, 2018 9:31 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:thomas.fossati@nokia.com">thomas.fossati@nokia.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Gorry Fairhust &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk">gorry=
@erg.abdn.ac.uk</a>&gt;; Eric Rescorla &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com">=
ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;; Mirja K=FChlewind &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mirja.kuehlew=
ind@tik.ee.ethz.ch">mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch</a>&gt;;
 Christian Huitema &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:huitema@huitema.net">huitema@huite=
ma.net</a>&gt;; Brian Trammell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@trammell.ch">ietf=
@trammell.ch</a>&gt;; Eggert, Lars &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lars@netapp.com">l=
ars@netapp.com</a>&gt;; QUIC WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@i=
etf.org</a>&gt;;
 Martin Thomson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.thomson@gmail.com">martin.thom=
son@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Packet number encryption<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">A few points as I catch up on this thread.<o:p></o:p=
></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">First, I'll remind folks that QUIC is an encrypted t=
ransport. I say this because the cost of this operation is trivial in the c=
ontext of encrypting every packet. The cost is borne at the servers and not=
 at middleboxes, so the additional
 crypto cost is basically trivial.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Second, this simplifies and increases robustness of =
implementation. Avoiding random PN jumps, as Kazuho points out, makes speci=
al-casing of code unnecessary. Special code that is exercised occasionally =
is a strong bug attractor, and I would
 strongly argue for as few of those as possible in implementation.<o:p></o:=
p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Third, yes, ossification is a real concern. A simple=
 example: using increasing packet numbers as a signature for detecting QUIC=
. Even if you argue against this example, there are innovative ways in whic=
h ossification will happen. This is
 based on a true story:&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#222222;background:white">We h=
ad no idea how GQUIC's flags field could get ossified, the value that was b=
eing used commonly became used as a signature for QUIC traffic
 (see Section 7.5 in the <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/ur=
l?u=3Dhttps-3A__static.googleusercontent.com_media_research.google.com_en_p=
ubs_archive_46403.pdf&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3D5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&amp;r=
=3DC0sUo-LFNBaYfyoaCsf6TA&amp;m=3DSY87I4v_IqTCGOds-j5NCOwkQ0cJcYHGyKdXmMIVn=
6I&amp;s=3DU9o6dI-dwzKwvXHvvmv7WtVm84puvxhaP0cN2of3VvA&amp;e=3D">
SIGCOMM QUIC paper</a>).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">There's a win here in terms of implementation comple=
xity and several implementers have said so. There's a win in terms of ossif=
ication and our experience says so. There's a potential loss of manageabili=
ty, in being able to detect reordering.
 This is the trade-off, and I am still in favor of encrypting packet number=
s.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 7:32 AM, Fossati, Thomas (Nok=
ia - GB/Cambridge, UK) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:thomas.fossati@nokia.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">thomas.fossati@nokia.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">On 31/01/2018, 10:06,=
 &quot;QUIC on behalf of Eggert, Lars&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic-boun=
ces@ietf.org">quic-bounces@ietf.org</a> on behalf of
<a href=3D"mailto:lars@netapp.com">lars@netapp.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; On 2018-1-31, at 10:52, Gorry Fairhurst &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gorry@er=
g.abdn.ac.uk">gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; &#43;1 - Simply: This *is* complicated and seems to add little.<b=
r>
&gt;<br>
&gt; So as an implementor (chair hat off), this adds very little to the<br>
&gt; overall complexity of the protocol.<br>
<br>
This doesn't sound great.&nbsp; It's a bit like saying that adding the Higg=
s<br>
mechanism to the standard model's lagrangian doesn't make it much more<br>
complicate :-)&nbsp; (*)<br>
<br>
More seriously though, I'd like to point out that it is not just about<br>
implementation complexity, it's also the energy cost per packet that is<br>
quite crucial.&nbsp; I haven't done the math but ISTM that bringing in<br>
another batch of non-optional crypto computation on a per packet basis<br>
is not going to move the needle in the right direction for stacks that<br>
run on low power (IoT).<br>
<br>
This is not a catastrophe - we have CoAP and a (D)TLS profile - but<br>
neither it's ideal, since cutting off the small things from the wider<br>
ecosystem creates an artificial gap which then will need a middlebox to<br>
bridge.&nbsp; (Sure, we have specified the behaviour of a similar box<br>
already, but it'd be really better if the extra translation logic could<br>
be avoided in the first place.)<br>
<br>
I guess what I'm saying is that PN encryption being a core mechanism<br>
that can't be negotiated at handshake time reduces our ability to later<br>
profile QUIC for the IoT, which would be a bit unlucky.<br>
<br>
So the question is: would it be possible to make this property a<br>
configurable knob instead?<br>
<br>
(*) <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.s=
ymmetrymagazine.org_article_the-2Ddeconstructed-2Dstandard-2Dmodel-2Dequati=
on&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3D5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&amp;r=3DC0sUo-LFNBaYfyoaCs=
f6TA&amp;m=3DSY87I4v_IqTCGOds-j5NCOwkQ0cJcYHGyKdXmMIVn6I&amp;s=3DetIO0AUHiJ=
m8zucsWaTgo-XULFisCMoG2iDvwC69s9Q&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">
https://www.symmetrymagazine.org/article/the-deconstructed-standard-model-e=
quation</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD861B7FDGGEMM506MBXchina_--


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From: "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>
To: "Roni Even (A)" <roni.even@huawei.com>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, "Piotr Galecki" <piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.com>, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>, "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK)" <thomas.fossati@nokia.com>
CC: Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>, Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>, =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mirja_K=FChlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: Packet number encryption
Thread-Topic: Packet number encryption
Thread-Index: AQHTmW31yPXsGERjf0mXrDq/23iDfaOM1RYAgABeoICAAAgVAIAAd3KAgAA8YgCAACPDAIAAAicAgAOBloCAALfcgIAACBoAgAEGFwCAANx+AIAARbYg
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2018 17:18:13 +0000
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The need to troubleshoot networks (at a minimum, to detect packet loss and =
reordering) is real.  I would assume that every network would need to have =
an ability to do so.  Ability to quickly troubleshoot and fix networks is n=
ot only "nice" for the networks themselves, but it is also very beneficial =
to QUIC users.

Having networks wrap and unwrap packets at their boundaries is a possibilit=
y, though it has real costs and downsides.  First, while networks could set=
up such wrapping for UDP port 443 traffic, what about QUIC traffic using ot=
her ports?  Would networks need to wrap all UDP traffic?  Second, this does=
 reduce MTU for end users, reducing available bandwidth.  Third, this would=
 allow networks to only answer questions like: "Is my network the culprit o=
f the problem?" instead of "Is the problem in my network, upstream from me,=
 or downstream from me?".

Would it be considered outrageous to suggest that packet number encryption =
be an option negotiated during connection handshake?  An end user client in=
 "Privacy-Enhanced" mode would negotiate this, while end users not particul=
arly concerned with connection migration linkability issues would leave thi=
s off?

- Igor


From: Roni Even (A) [mailto:roni.even@huawei.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2018 2:47 AM
To: Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>; Piotr Galecki <piotr_galecki@affirmednetwo=
rks.com>; Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>; Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambri=
dge, UK) <thomas.fossati@nokia.com>
Cc: Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>; Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>; Ch=
ristian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>; Eggert, Lars <lars@netapp.com>; Bria=
n Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>; Mirja K=FChlewind <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.e=
thz.ch>; QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>; Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: Packet number encryption

Hi,
Network monitoring:
Networks may always wrap the packet(s) they have received with whatever dat=
a they wish, and unwrap before forwarding. This can allow any network to un=
derstand ordering,  loss, etc within its boundaries.

RE- so you are saying that we can for example  leverage  RTP and define RTP=
 payload for QUIC that will carry QUIC packets, we will just need to resolv=
e the MTU size.
Roni


From: QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roberto Peon
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2018 8:38 PM
To: Piotr Galecki; Jana Iyengar; Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK)
Cc: Gorry Fairhust; Eric Rescorla; Mirja K=FChlewind; Eggert, Lars; Brian T=
rammell; Christian Huitema; QUIC WG; Martin Thomson
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption

Ossification:
In the past tcp middleboxes expected in-order, monotonically increasing off=
sets and tried to fix reordering before forwarding. This middlebox behavior=
, predicated on observable flows, prevented deployment of things which woul=
d have made tcp more efficient.

 This is the kind of non-theoretical ossification that drove the creation o=
f QUIC in the first place.

Network monitoring:
Networks may always wrap the packet(s) they have received with whatever dat=
a they wish, and unwrap before forwarding. This can allow any network to un=
derstand ordering,  loss, etc within its boundaries.

Debugging:
Debugging of flows can still happen for flows that wish to be debugged-- th=
e QUIC connection's key material(s) can be shared manually and used by the =
debugging tool. This is how one debugs http2, https, etc. already today.

-=3DR



-------- Original message --------
From: Piotr Galecki <piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.com<mailto:piotr_galeck=
i@affirmednetworks.com>>
Date: 2/2/18 7:00 PM (GMT-08:00)
To: Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com<mailto:jri@google.com>>, "Fossati, Thomas =
(Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK)" <thomas.fossati@nokia.com<mailto:thomas.fossati=
@nokia.com>>
Cc: Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk<mailto:gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>>, Eri=
c Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com<mailto:ekr@rtfm.com>>, Christian Huitema <huitema@=
huitema.net<mailto:huitema@huitema.net>>, "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com<m=
ailto:lars@netapp.com>>, Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch<mailto:ietf@tramm=
ell.ch>>, Mirja K=FChlewind <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch<mailto:mirja.k=
uehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org<mailto:quic@ietf.org>>, =
Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com<mailto:martin.thomson@gmail.com>>
Subject: RE: Packet number encryption

What is the group's proposal for allowing network monitoring tools to detec=
t packet retransmission or packet reordering ?
These metrics are pretty straightforward to measure for TCP flows.
Tools like Wireshark can analyze packets and spot issues.
How can the network tools perform this kind of measurements for QUIC flows =
if PN field is encrypted?


From: QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jana Iyengar
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2018 9:31 PM
To: Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK) <thomas.fossati@nokia.com<ma=
ilto:thomas.fossati@nokia.com>>
Cc: Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk<mailto:gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>>; Eri=
c Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com<mailto:ekr@rtfm.com>>; Mirja K=FChlewind <mirja.ku=
ehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch<mailto:mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>>; Christian=
 Huitema <huitema@huitema.net<mailto:huitema@huitema.net>>; Brian Trammell =
<ietf@trammell.ch<mailto:ietf@trammell.ch>>; Eggert, Lars <lars@netapp.com<=
mailto:lars@netapp.com>>; QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org<mailto:quic@ietf.org>>; Ma=
rtin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com<mailto:martin.thomson@gmail.com>>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption

A few points as I catch up on this thread.

First, I'll remind folks that QUIC is an encrypted transport. I say this be=
cause the cost of this operation is trivial in the context of encrypting ev=
ery packet. The cost is borne at the servers and not at middleboxes, so the=
 additional crypto cost is basically trivial.

Second, this simplifies and increases robustness of implementation. Avoidin=
g random PN jumps, as Kazuho points out, makes special-casing of code unnec=
essary. Special code that is exercised occasionally is a strong bug attract=
or, and I would strongly argue for as few of those as possible in implement=
ation.

Third, yes, ossification is a real concern. A simple example: using increas=
ing packet numbers as a signature for detecting QUIC. Even if you argue aga=
inst this example, there are innovative ways in which ossification will hap=
pen. This is based on a true story: We had no idea how GQUIC's flags field =
could get ossified, the value that was being used commonly became used as a=
 signature for QUIC traffic (see Section 7.5 in the SIGCOMM QUIC paper<http=
s://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__static.googleusercontent=
.com_media_research.google.com_en_pubs_archive_46403.pdf&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3D5VD=
0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=3DC0sUo-LFNBaYfyoaCsf6TA&m=3DSY87I4v_IqTCGOds-j5NCOwk=
Q0cJcYHGyKdXmMIVn6I&s=3DU9o6dI-dwzKwvXHvvmv7WtVm84puvxhaP0cN2of3VvA&e=3D>).

There's a win here in terms of implementation complexity and several implem=
enters have said so. There's a win in terms of ossification and our experie=
nce says so. There's a potential loss of manageability, in being able to de=
tect reordering. This is the trade-off, and I am still in favor of encrypti=
ng packet numbers.

On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 7:32 AM, Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK) =
<thomas.fossati@nokia.com<mailto:thomas.fossati@nokia.com>> wrote:
On 31/01/2018, 10:06, "QUIC on behalf of Eggert, Lars" <quic-bounces@ietf.o=
rg<mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of lars@netapp.com<mailto:lars@n=
etapp.com>> wrote:
> On 2018-1-31, at 10:52, Gorry Fairhurst <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk<mailto:gorr=
y@erg.abdn.ac.uk>> wrote:
> > +1 - Simply: This *is* complicated and seems to add little.
>
> So as an implementor (chair hat off), this adds very little to the
> overall complexity of the protocol.

This doesn't sound great.  It's a bit like saying that adding the Higgs
mechanism to the standard model's lagrangian doesn't make it much more
complicate :-)  (*)

More seriously though, I'd like to point out that it is not just about
implementation complexity, it's also the energy cost per packet that is
quite crucial.  I haven't done the math but ISTM that bringing in
another batch of non-optional crypto computation on a per packet basis
is not going to move the needle in the right direction for stacks that
run on low power (IoT).

This is not a catastrophe - we have CoAP and a (D)TLS profile - but
neither it's ideal, since cutting off the small things from the wider
ecosystem creates an artificial gap which then will need a middlebox to
bridge.  (Sure, we have specified the behaviour of a similar box
already, but it'd be really better if the extra translation logic could
be avoided in the first place.)

I guess what I'm saying is that PN encryption being a core mechanism
that can't be negotiated at handshake time reduces our ability to later
profile QUIC for the IoT, which would be a bit unlucky.

So the question is: would it be possible to make this property a
configurable knob instead?

(*) https://www.symmetrymagazine.org/article/the-deconstructed-standard-mod=
el-equation<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.symm=
etrymagazine.org_article_the-2Ddeconstructed-2Dstandard-2Dmodel-2Dequation&=
d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3D5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=3DC0sUo-LFNBaYfyoaCsf6TA&m=3DSY87I4=
v_IqTCGOds-j5NCOwkQ0cJcYHGyKdXmMIVn6I&s=3DetIO0AUHiJm8zucsWaTgo-XULFisCMoG2=
iDvwC69s9Q&e=3D>


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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The need to troubleshoot networks (at a minimum, to =
detect packet loss and reordering) is real.&nbsp; I would assume that every=
 network would need to have an ability to do so. &nbsp;Ability to quickly t=
roubleshoot and fix networks is not only &#8220;nice&#8221;
 for the networks themselves, but it is also very beneficial to QUIC users.=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Having networks wrap and unwrap packets at their bou=
ndaries is a possibility, though it has real costs and downsides. &nbsp;Fir=
st, while networks could setup such wrapping for UDP port 443 traffic, what=
 about QUIC traffic using other ports?&nbsp;
 Would networks need to wrap all UDP traffic?&nbsp; Second, this does reduc=
e MTU for end users, reducing available bandwidth.&nbsp; Third, this would =
allow networks to only answer questions like: &#8220;Is my network the culp=
rit of the problem?&#8221; instead of &#8220;Is the problem
 in my network, upstream from me, or downstream from me?&#8221;.<o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Would it be considered outrageous to suggest that pa=
cket number encryption be an option negotiated during connection handshake?=
&nbsp; An end user client in &#8220;Privacy-Enhanced&#8221; mode would nego=
tiate this, while end users not particularly concerned
 with connection migration linkability issues would leave this off?<o:p></o=
:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- Igor<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Roni Even (A) [mailto:roni.even@huawei.=
com] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, February 04, 2018 2:47 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Roberto Peon &lt;fenix@fb.com&gt;; Piotr Galecki &lt;piotr_galec=
ki@affirmednetworks.com&gt;; Jana Iyengar &lt;jri@google.com&gt;; Fossati, =
Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK) &lt;thomas.fossati@nokia.com&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Gorry Fairhust &lt;gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk&gt;; Eric Rescorla &lt;e=
kr@rtfm.com&gt;; Christian Huitema &lt;huitema@huitema.net&gt;; Eggert, Lar=
s &lt;lars@netapp.com&gt;; Brian Trammell &lt;ietf@trammell.ch&gt;; Mirja K=
=FChlewind &lt;mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch&gt;; QUIC WG &lt;quic@ietf.o=
rg&gt;;
 Martin Thomson &lt;martin.thomson@gmail.com&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Packet number encryption<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">Hi,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">Network monitoring:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">Networks may always wrap the packet(s) they have=
 received with whatever data they wish, and unwrap before forwarding. This =
can allow any network to understand ordering,&nbsp;
 loss, etc within its boundaries.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">RE- so you are saying that we can for example &n=
bsp;leverage &nbsp;RTP and define RTP payload for QUIC that will carry QUIC=
 packets, we will just need to resolve the MTU size.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">Roni</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;f=
ont-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"> QUIC [<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bou=
nces@ietf.org">mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Roberto Peon<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, February 03, 2018 8:38 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Piotr Galecki; Jana Iyengar; Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambrid=
ge, UK)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Gorry Fairhust; Eric Rescorla; Mirja K=FChlewind; Eggert, Lars; =
Brian Trammell; Christian Huitema; QUIC WG; Martin Thomson<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Packet number encryption</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">Ossification:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">In the past tcp middleboxes expected in-order, m=
onotonically increasing offsets and tried to fix reordering before forwardi=
ng. This middlebox behavior, predicated on observable
 flows, prevented deployment of things which would have made tcp more effic=
ient.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;This is the kind of non-theoretical ossifi=
cation that drove the creation of QUIC in the first place.</span><o:p></o:p=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">Network monitoring:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">Networks may always wrap the packet(s) they have=
 received with whatever data they wish, and unwrap before forwarding. This =
can allow any network to understand ordering,&nbsp;
 loss, etc within its boundaries.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">Debugging:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">Debugging of flows can still happen for flows th=
at wish to be debugged-- the QUIC connection's key material(s) can be share=
d manually and used by the debugging tool. This
 is how one debugs http2, https, etc. already today.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">-=3DR</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">-------- Original message --------</span><o:p></=
o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">From: Piotr Galecki &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:piotr_=
galecki@affirmednetworks.com">piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.com</a>&gt;
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">Date: 2/2/18 7:00 PM (GMT-08:00)
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">To: Jana Iyengar &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jri@googl=
e.com">jri@google.com</a>&gt;, &quot;Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge,=
 UK)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:thomas.fossati@nokia.com">thomas.fossati@n=
okia.com</a>&gt;
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">Cc: Gorry Fairhust &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gorry@e=
rg.abdn.ac.uk">gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk</a>&gt;, Eric Rescorla &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:ekr@rtfm.com">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;, Christian Huitema &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:huitema@huitema.net">huitema@huitema.net</a>&gt;,
 &quot;Eggert, Lars&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lars@netapp.com">lars@netap=
p.com</a>&gt;, Brian Trammell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@trammell.ch">ietf@=
trammell.ch</a>&gt;, Mirja K=FChlewind &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mirja.kuehlewi=
nd@tik.ee.ethz.ch">mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch</a>&gt;, QUIC WG
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Martin Thomson=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.thomson@gmail.com">martin.thomson@gmail.com</=
a>&gt;
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">Subject: RE: Packet number encryption
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">What is the group&#8217;s proposal for allowing netw=
ork monitoring tools to detect packet retransmission or packet reordering ?=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">These metrics are pretty straightforward to measure =
for TCP flows.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Tools like Wireshark can analyze packets and spot is=
sues.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">How can the network tools perform this kind of measu=
rements for QUIC flows if PN field is encrypted?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> QUIC [<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bounces@ie=
tf.org">mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jana Iyengar<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 02, 2018 9:31 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:thomas.fossati@nokia.com">thomas.fossati@nokia.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Gorry Fairhust &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk">gorry=
@erg.abdn.ac.uk</a>&gt;; Eric Rescorla &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com">=
ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;; Mirja K=FChlewind &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mirja.kuehlew=
ind@tik.ee.ethz.ch">mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch</a>&gt;;
 Christian Huitema &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:huitema@huitema.net">huitema@huite=
ma.net</a>&gt;; Brian Trammell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@trammell.ch">ietf=
@trammell.ch</a>&gt;; Eggert, Lars &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lars@netapp.com">l=
ars@netapp.com</a>&gt;; QUIC WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@i=
etf.org</a>&gt;;
 Martin Thomson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.thomson@gmail.com">martin.thom=
son@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Packet number encryption<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">A few points as I catch up on this thread.<o:p></o:p=
></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">First, I'll remind folks that QUIC is an encrypted t=
ransport. I say this because the cost of this operation is trivial in the c=
ontext of encrypting every packet. The cost is borne at the servers and not=
 at middleboxes, so the additional
 crypto cost is basically trivial.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Second, this simplifies and increases robustness of =
implementation. Avoiding random PN jumps, as Kazuho points out, makes speci=
al-casing of code unnecessary. Special code that is exercised occasionally =
is a strong bug attractor, and I would
 strongly argue for as few of those as possible in implementation.<o:p></o:=
p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Third, yes, ossification is a real concern. A simple=
 example: using increasing packet numbers as a signature for detecting QUIC=
. Even if you argue against this example, there are innovative ways in whic=
h ossification will happen. This is
 based on a true story:&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:#222222;background:white">We had no idea h=
ow GQUIC's flags field could get ossified, the value that was being used co=
mmonly became used as a signature for QUIC traffic
 (see Section 7.5 in the <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/ur=
l?u=3Dhttps-3A__static.googleusercontent.com_media_research.google.com_en_p=
ubs_archive_46403.pdf&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3D5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&amp;r=
=3DC0sUo-LFNBaYfyoaCsf6TA&amp;m=3DSY87I4v_IqTCGOds-j5NCOwkQ0cJcYHGyKdXmMIVn=
6I&amp;s=3DU9o6dI-dwzKwvXHvvmv7WtVm84puvxhaP0cN2of3VvA&amp;e=3D">
SIGCOMM QUIC paper</a>).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">There's a win here in terms of implementation comple=
xity and several implementers have said so. There's a win in terms of ossif=
ication and our experience says so. There's a potential loss of manageabili=
ty, in being able to detect reordering.
 This is the trade-off, and I am still in favor of encrypting packet number=
s.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 7:32 AM, Fossati, Thomas (Nok=
ia - GB/Cambridge, UK) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:thomas.fossati@nokia.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">thomas.fossati@nokia.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">On 31/01/2018, 10:06,=
 &quot;QUIC on behalf of Eggert, Lars&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic-boun=
ces@ietf.org">quic-bounces@ietf.org</a> on behalf of
<a href=3D"mailto:lars@netapp.com">lars@netapp.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; On 2018-1-31, at 10:52, Gorry Fairhurst &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gorry@er=
g.abdn.ac.uk">gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; &#43;1 - Simply: This *is* complicated and seems to add little.<b=
r>
&gt;<br>
&gt; So as an implementor (chair hat off), this adds very little to the<br>
&gt; overall complexity of the protocol.<br>
<br>
This doesn't sound great.&nbsp; It's a bit like saying that adding the Higg=
s<br>
mechanism to the standard model's lagrangian doesn't make it much more<br>
complicate :-)&nbsp; (*)<br>
<br>
More seriously though, I'd like to point out that it is not just about<br>
implementation complexity, it's also the energy cost per packet that is<br>
quite crucial.&nbsp; I haven't done the math but ISTM that bringing in<br>
another batch of non-optional crypto computation on a per packet basis<br>
is not going to move the needle in the right direction for stacks that<br>
run on low power (IoT).<br>
<br>
This is not a catastrophe - we have CoAP and a (D)TLS profile - but<br>
neither it's ideal, since cutting off the small things from the wider<br>
ecosystem creates an artificial gap which then will need a middlebox to<br>
bridge.&nbsp; (Sure, we have specified the behaviour of a similar box<br>
already, but it'd be really better if the extra translation logic could<br>
be avoided in the first place.)<br>
<br>
I guess what I'm saying is that PN encryption being a core mechanism<br>
that can't be negotiated at handshake time reduces our ability to later<br>
profile QUIC for the IoT, which would be a bit unlucky.<br>
<br>
So the question is: would it be possible to make this property a<br>
configurable knob instead?<br>
<br>
(*) <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.s=
ymmetrymagazine.org_article_the-2Ddeconstructed-2Dstandard-2Dmodel-2Dequati=
on&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3D5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&amp;r=3DC0sUo-LFNBaYfyoaCs=
f6TA&amp;m=3DSY87I4v_IqTCGOds-j5NCOwkQ0cJcYHGyKdXmMIVn6I&amp;s=3DetIO0AUHiJ=
m8zucsWaTgo-XULFisCMoG2iDvwC69s9Q&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">
https://www.symmetrymagazine.org/article/the-deconstructed-standard-model-e=
quation</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_e529144067624fcba636fc8c24ee3ff4usma1exdag1mb5msgcorpak_--


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From: "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>
To: "Roni Even (A)" <roni.even@huawei.com>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, "Piotr Galecki" <piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.com>, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>, "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK)" <thomas.fossati@nokia.com>
CC: Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>, Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>, =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mirja_K=FChlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: Packet number encryption
Thread-Topic: Packet number encryption
Thread-Index: AQHTmW31yPXsGERjf0mXrDq/23iDfaOM1RYAgABeoICAAAgVAIAAd3KAgAA8YgCAACPDAIAAAicAgAOBloCAALfcgIAACBoAgAEGFwCAANx+AIAARbYggAAHFvA=
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2018 17:33:23 +0000
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References: <CABkgnnVyo3MmWtVULiV=FJTnR528qfY8-OmKGWAs0bCvri-a_g@mail.gmail.com> <1F7FB3B8-A94C-4354-9944-FB09FB8DB68B@trammell.ch> <CABcZeBMbwdwyC9TxxHBLYaZKfNB-FG2wCGjqUZ_mNR-A1R47FA@mail.gmail.com> <9096e5ec-581e-875a-b1dd-bff0b05206fd@huitema.net> <CABkgnnWRQSAufwPss+qf=xAzCwRYeNNH8XLPm3yFaHxOb+ba4g@mail.gmail.com> <BF80500A-6277-45DC-8525-9C3FE138B76D@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <5A7191E0.6010003@erg.abdn.ac.uk> <5214AD93-8376-4B25-922F-AF5551CC2E95@netapp.com> <F990E064-E6F8-41A3-B791-F776C9955E15@nokia.com> <CAGD1bZab0GaZFsHwC+nw3AxxC4VusxMJ6oDanzk3dSDdWKAXdw@mail.gmail.com>, <2C515BE8694C6F4B9B6A578BCAC32E2F83BA1443@MBX021-W3-CA-2.exch021.domain.local> <BY2PR15MB07757473DB9788558B902EB5CDF80@BY2PR15MB0775.namprd15.prod.outlook.com> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD861B7F@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> <e529144067624fcba636fc8c24ee3ff4@usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com>
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  *   Would it be considered outrageous to suggest that packet number encry=
ption be an option negotiated during connection handshake?

Answering my own question, the trade-off is, of course, is that this opens =
up the possibility of network operators choosing to prohibit "enhanced priv=
acy" connections by breaking those connections.

The dilemma may still be there - QUIC's primary goal is to ensure better en=
d user performance, but would that goal be satisfied, if networks find it m=
uch harder to troubleshoot QUIC traffic?  Or is there no dilemma, and netwo=
rks will find ways to effectively troubleshoot QUIC traffic on par with wha=
t they can do with TCP?


From: Lubashev, Igor
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2018 12:18 PM
To: 'Roni Even (A)' <roni.even@huawei.com>; Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>; Pi=
otr Galecki <piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.com>; Jana Iyengar <jri@google.=
com>; Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK) <thomas.fossati@nokia.com>
Cc: Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>; Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>; Ch=
ristian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>; Eggert, Lars <lars@netapp.com>; Bria=
n Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>; Mirja K=FChlewind <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.e=
thz.ch>; QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>; Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: Packet number encryption

The need to troubleshoot networks (at a minimum, to detect packet loss and =
reordering) is real.  I would assume that every network would need to have =
an ability to do so.  Ability to quickly troubleshoot and fix networks is n=
ot only "nice" for the networks themselves, but it is also very beneficial =
to QUIC users.

Having networks wrap and unwrap packets at their boundaries is a possibilit=
y, though it has real costs and downsides.  First, while networks could set=
up such wrapping for UDP port 443 traffic, what about QUIC traffic using ot=
her ports?  Would networks need to wrap all UDP traffic?  Second, this does=
 reduce MTU for end users, reducing available bandwidth.  Third, this would=
 allow networks to only answer questions like: "Is my network the culprit o=
f the problem?" instead of "Is the problem in my network, upstream from me,=
 or downstream from me?".

Would it be considered outrageous to suggest that packet number encryption =
be an option negotiated during connection handshake?  An end user client in=
 "Privacy-Enhanced" mode would negotiate this, while end users not particul=
arly concerned with connection migration linkability issues would leave thi=
s off?

- Igor


From: Roni Even (A) [mailto:roni.even@huawei.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2018 2:47 AM
To: Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com<mailto:fenix@fb.com>>; Piotr Galecki <piotr_=
galecki@affirmednetworks.com<mailto:piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.com>>; J=
ana Iyengar <jri@google.com<mailto:jri@google.com>>; Fossati, Thomas (Nokia=
 - GB/Cambridge, UK) <thomas.fossati@nokia.com<mailto:thomas.fossati@nokia.=
com>>
Cc: Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk<mailto:gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>>; Eri=
c Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com<mailto:ekr@rtfm.com>>; Christian Huitema <huitema@=
huitema.net<mailto:huitema@huitema.net>>; Eggert, Lars <lars@netapp.com<mai=
lto:lars@netapp.com>>; Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch<mailto:ietf@trammel=
l.ch>>; Mirja K=FChlewind <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch<mailto:mirja.kue=
hlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>>; QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org<mailto:quic@ietf.org>>; Ma=
rtin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com<mailto:martin.thomson@gmail.com>>
Subject: RE: Packet number encryption

Hi,
Network monitoring:
Networks may always wrap the packet(s) they have received with whatever dat=
a they wish, and unwrap before forwarding. This can allow any network to un=
derstand ordering,  loss, etc within its boundaries.

RE- so you are saying that we can for example  leverage  RTP and define RTP=
 payload for QUIC that will carry QUIC packets, we will just need to resolv=
e the MTU size.
Roni


From: QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roberto Peon
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2018 8:38 PM
To: Piotr Galecki; Jana Iyengar; Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK)
Cc: Gorry Fairhust; Eric Rescorla; Mirja K=FChlewind; Eggert, Lars; Brian T=
rammell; Christian Huitema; QUIC WG; Martin Thomson
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption

Ossification:
In the past tcp middleboxes expected in-order, monotonically increasing off=
sets and tried to fix reordering before forwarding. This middlebox behavior=
, predicated on observable flows, prevented deployment of things which woul=
d have made tcp more efficient.

 This is the kind of non-theoretical ossification that drove the creation o=
f QUIC in the first place.

Network monitoring:
Networks may always wrap the packet(s) they have received with whatever dat=
a they wish, and unwrap before forwarding. This can allow any network to un=
derstand ordering,  loss, etc within its boundaries.

Debugging:
Debugging of flows can still happen for flows that wish to be debugged-- th=
e QUIC connection's key material(s) can be shared manually and used by the =
debugging tool. This is how one debugs http2, https, etc. already today.

-=3DR



-------- Original message --------
From: Piotr Galecki <piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.com<mailto:piotr_galeck=
i@affirmednetworks.com>>
Date: 2/2/18 7:00 PM (GMT-08:00)
To: Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com<mailto:jri@google.com>>, "Fossati, Thomas =
(Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK)" <thomas.fossati@nokia.com<mailto:thomas.fossati=
@nokia.com>>
Cc: Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk<mailto:gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>>, Eri=
c Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com<mailto:ekr@rtfm.com>>, Christian Huitema <huitema@=
huitema.net<mailto:huitema@huitema.net>>, "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com<m=
ailto:lars@netapp.com>>, Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch<mailto:ietf@tramm=
ell.ch>>, Mirja K=FChlewind <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch<mailto:mirja.k=
uehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org<mailto:quic@ietf.org>>, =
Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com<mailto:martin.thomson@gmail.com>>
Subject: RE: Packet number encryption

What is the group's proposal for allowing network monitoring tools to detec=
t packet retransmission or packet reordering ?
These metrics are pretty straightforward to measure for TCP flows.
Tools like Wireshark can analyze packets and spot issues.
How can the network tools perform this kind of measurements for QUIC flows =
if PN field is encrypted?


From: QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jana Iyengar
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2018 9:31 PM
To: Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK) <thomas.fossati@nokia.com<ma=
ilto:thomas.fossati@nokia.com>>
Cc: Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk<mailto:gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>>; Eri=
c Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com<mailto:ekr@rtfm.com>>; Mirja K=FChlewind <mirja.ku=
ehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch<mailto:mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>>; Christian=
 Huitema <huitema@huitema.net<mailto:huitema@huitema.net>>; Brian Trammell =
<ietf@trammell.ch<mailto:ietf@trammell.ch>>; Eggert, Lars <lars@netapp.com<=
mailto:lars@netapp.com>>; QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org<mailto:quic@ietf.org>>; Ma=
rtin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com<mailto:martin.thomson@gmail.com>>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption

A few points as I catch up on this thread.

First, I'll remind folks that QUIC is an encrypted transport. I say this be=
cause the cost of this operation is trivial in the context of encrypting ev=
ery packet. The cost is borne at the servers and not at middleboxes, so the=
 additional crypto cost is basically trivial.

Second, this simplifies and increases robustness of implementation. Avoidin=
g random PN jumps, as Kazuho points out, makes special-casing of code unnec=
essary. Special code that is exercised occasionally is a strong bug attract=
or, and I would strongly argue for as few of those as possible in implement=
ation.

Third, yes, ossification is a real concern. A simple example: using increas=
ing packet numbers as a signature for detecting QUIC. Even if you argue aga=
inst this example, there are innovative ways in which ossification will hap=
pen. This is based on a true story: We had no idea how GQUIC's flags field =
could get ossified, the value that was being used commonly became used as a=
 signature for QUIC traffic (see Section 7.5 in the SIGCOMM QUIC paper<http=
s://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__static.googleusercontent=
.com_media_research.google.com_en_pubs_archive_46403.pdf&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3D5VD=
0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=3DC0sUo-LFNBaYfyoaCsf6TA&m=3DSY87I4v_IqTCGOds-j5NCOwk=
Q0cJcYHGyKdXmMIVn6I&s=3DU9o6dI-dwzKwvXHvvmv7WtVm84puvxhaP0cN2of3VvA&e=3D>).

There's a win here in terms of implementation complexity and several implem=
enters have said so. There's a win in terms of ossification and our experie=
nce says so. There's a potential loss of manageability, in being able to de=
tect reordering. This is the trade-off, and I am still in favor of encrypti=
ng packet numbers.

On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 7:32 AM, Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK) =
<thomas.fossati@nokia.com<mailto:thomas.fossati@nokia.com>> wrote:
On 31/01/2018, 10:06, "QUIC on behalf of Eggert, Lars" <quic-bounces@ietf.o=
rg<mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of lars@netapp.com<mailto:lars@n=
etapp.com>> wrote:
> On 2018-1-31, at 10:52, Gorry Fairhurst <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk<mailto:gorr=
y@erg.abdn.ac.uk>> wrote:
> > +1 - Simply: This *is* complicated and seems to add little.
>
> So as an implementor (chair hat off), this adds very little to the
> overall complexity of the protocol.

This doesn't sound great.  It's a bit like saying that adding the Higgs
mechanism to the standard model's lagrangian doesn't make it much more
complicate :-)  (*)

More seriously though, I'd like to point out that it is not just about
implementation complexity, it's also the energy cost per packet that is
quite crucial.  I haven't done the math but ISTM that bringing in
another batch of non-optional crypto computation on a per packet basis
is not going to move the needle in the right direction for stacks that
run on low power (IoT).

This is not a catastrophe - we have CoAP and a (D)TLS profile - but
neither it's ideal, since cutting off the small things from the wider
ecosystem creates an artificial gap which then will need a middlebox to
bridge.  (Sure, we have specified the behaviour of a similar box
already, but it'd be really better if the extra translation logic could
be avoided in the first place.)

I guess what I'm saying is that PN encryption being a core mechanism
that can't be negotiated at handshake time reduces our ability to later
profile QUIC for the IoT, which would be a bit unlucky.

So the question is: would it be possible to make this property a
configurable knob instead?

(*) https://www.symmetrymagazine.org/article/the-deconstructed-standard-mod=
el-equation<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.symm=
etrymagazine.org_article_the-2Ddeconstructed-2Dstandard-2Dmodel-2Dequation&=
d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3D5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=3DC0sUo-LFNBaYfyoaCsf6TA&m=3DSY87I4=
v_IqTCGOds-j5NCOwkQ0cJcYHGyKdXmMIVn6I&s=3DetIO0AUHiJm8zucsWaTgo-XULFisCMoG2=
iDvwC69s9Q&e=3D>


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<ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo1">Would it be considered outrageous to suggest that packet number encry=
ption be an option negotiated during connection handshake?<o:p></o:p></li><=
/ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Answering my own question, the trade-off is, of cour=
se, is that this opens up the possibility of network operators choosing to =
prohibit &#8220;enhanced privacy&#8221; connections by breaking those conne=
ctions.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The dilemma may still be there &#8211; QUIC&#8217;s =
primary goal is to ensure better end user performance, but would that goal =
be satisfied, if networks find it much harder to troubleshoot QUIC traffic?=
&nbsp; Or is there no dilemma, and networks will find
 ways to effectively troubleshoot QUIC traffic on par with what they can do=
 with TCP?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Lubashev, Igor <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, February 04, 2018 12:18 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Roni Even (A)' &lt;roni.even@huawei.com&gt;; Roberto Peon &lt;f=
enix@fb.com&gt;; Piotr Galecki &lt;piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.com&gt;; =
Jana Iyengar &lt;jri@google.com&gt;; Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge,=
 UK) &lt;thomas.fossati@nokia.com&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Gorry Fairhust &lt;gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk&gt;; Eric Rescorla &lt;e=
kr@rtfm.com&gt;; Christian Huitema &lt;huitema@huitema.net&gt;; Eggert, Lar=
s &lt;lars@netapp.com&gt;; Brian Trammell &lt;ietf@trammell.ch&gt;; Mirja K=
=FChlewind &lt;mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch&gt;; QUIC WG &lt;quic@ietf.o=
rg&gt;;
 Martin Thomson &lt;martin.thomson@gmail.com&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Packet number encryption<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The need to troubleshoot networks (at a minimum, to =
detect packet loss and reordering) is real.&nbsp; I would assume that every=
 network would need to have an ability to do so. &nbsp;Ability to quickly t=
roubleshoot and fix networks is not only &#8220;nice&#8221;
 for the networks themselves, but it is also very beneficial to QUIC users.=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Having networks wrap and unwrap packets at their bou=
ndaries is a possibility, though it has real costs and downsides. &nbsp;Fir=
st, while networks could setup such wrapping for UDP port 443 traffic, what=
 about QUIC traffic using other ports?&nbsp;
 Would networks need to wrap all UDP traffic?&nbsp; Second, this does reduc=
e MTU for end users, reducing available bandwidth.&nbsp; Third, this would =
allow networks to only answer questions like: &#8220;Is my network the culp=
rit of the problem?&#8221; instead of &#8220;Is the problem
 in my network, upstream from me, or downstream from me?&#8221;.<o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Would it be considered outrageous to suggest that pa=
cket number encryption be an option negotiated during connection handshake?=
&nbsp; An end user client in &#8220;Privacy-Enhanced&#8221; mode would nego=
tiate this, while end users not particularly concerned
 with connection migration linkability issues would leave this off?<o:p></o=
:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- Igor<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Roni Even (A) [<a href=3D"mailto:roni.e=
ven@huawei.com">mailto:roni.even@huawei.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, February 04, 2018 2:47 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Roberto Peon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.com">fenix@fb.com</a=
>&gt;; Piotr Galecki &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.c=
om">piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.com</a>&gt;; Jana Iyengar &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:jri@google.com">jri@google.com</a>&gt;; Fossati,
 Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:thomas.fossati@nok=
ia.com">thomas.fossati@nokia.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Gorry Fairhust &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk">gorry=
@erg.abdn.ac.uk</a>&gt;; Eric Rescorla &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com">=
ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;; Christian Huitema &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:huitema@huite=
ma.net">huitema@huitema.net</a>&gt;; Eggert, Lars &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lar=
s@netapp.com">lars@netapp.com</a>&gt;;
 Brian Trammell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@trammell.ch">ietf@trammell.ch</a=
>&gt;; Mirja K=FChlewind &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz=
.ch">mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch</a>&gt;; QUIC WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:quic@ietf.org">quic@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Martin Thomson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:martin.thomson@gmail.com">martin.thomson@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Packet number encryption<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">Hi,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">Network monitoring:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">Networks may always wrap the packet(s) they have=
 received with whatever data they wish, and unwrap before forwarding. This =
can allow any network to understand ordering,&nbsp;
 loss, etc within its boundaries.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">RE- so you are saying that we can for example &n=
bsp;leverage &nbsp;RTP and define RTP payload for QUIC that will carry QUIC=
 packets, we will just need to resolve the MTU size.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">Roni</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:=
p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;f=
ont-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"> QUIC [<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bou=
nces@ietf.org">mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Roberto Peon<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, February 03, 2018 8:38 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Piotr Galecki; Jana Iyengar; Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambrid=
ge, UK)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Gorry Fairhust; Eric Rescorla; Mirja K=FChlewind; Eggert, Lars; =
Brian Trammell; Christian Huitema; QUIC WG; Martin Thomson<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Packet number encryption</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">Ossification:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">In the past tcp middleboxes expected in-order, m=
onotonically increasing offsets and tried to fix reordering before forwardi=
ng. This middlebox behavior, predicated on observable
 flows, prevented deployment of things which would have made tcp more effic=
ient.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;This is the kind of non-theoretical ossifi=
cation that drove the creation of QUIC in the first place.</span><o:p></o:p=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">Network monitoring:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">Networks may always wrap the packet(s) they have=
 received with whatever data they wish, and unwrap before forwarding. This =
can allow any network to understand ordering,&nbsp;
 loss, etc within its boundaries.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">Debugging:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">Debugging of flows can still happen for flows th=
at wish to be debugged-- the QUIC connection's key material(s) can be share=
d manually and used by the debugging tool. This
 is how one debugs http2, https, etc. already today.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">-=3DR</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">-------- Original message --------</span><o:p></=
o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">From: Piotr Galecki &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:piotr_=
galecki@affirmednetworks.com">piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.com</a>&gt;
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">Date: 2/2/18 7:00 PM (GMT-08:00)
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">To: Jana Iyengar &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jri@googl=
e.com">jri@google.com</a>&gt;, &quot;Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge,=
 UK)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:thomas.fossati@nokia.com">thomas.fossati@n=
okia.com</a>&gt;
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">Cc: Gorry Fairhust &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gorry@e=
rg.abdn.ac.uk">gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk</a>&gt;, Eric Rescorla &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:ekr@rtfm.com">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;, Christian Huitema &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:huitema@huitema.net">huitema@huitema.net</a>&gt;,
 &quot;Eggert, Lars&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lars@netapp.com">lars@netap=
p.com</a>&gt;, Brian Trammell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@trammell.ch">ietf@=
trammell.ch</a>&gt;, Mirja K=FChlewind &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mirja.kuehlewi=
nd@tik.ee.ethz.ch">mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch</a>&gt;, QUIC WG
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Martin Thomson=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.thomson@gmail.com">martin.thomson@gmail.com</=
a>&gt;
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">Subject: RE: Packet number encryption
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">What is the group&#8217;s proposal for allowing netw=
ork monitoring tools to detect packet retransmission or packet reordering ?=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">These metrics are pretty straightforward to measure =
for TCP flows.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Tools like Wireshark can analyze packets and spot is=
sues.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">How can the network tools perform this kind of measu=
rements for QUIC flows if PN field is encrypted?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> QUIC [<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bounces@ie=
tf.org">mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jana Iyengar<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 02, 2018 9:31 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:thomas.fossati@nokia.com">thomas.fossati@nokia.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Gorry Fairhust &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk">gorry=
@erg.abdn.ac.uk</a>&gt;; Eric Rescorla &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com">=
ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;; Mirja K=FChlewind &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mirja.kuehlew=
ind@tik.ee.ethz.ch">mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch</a>&gt;;
 Christian Huitema &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:huitema@huitema.net">huitema@huite=
ma.net</a>&gt;; Brian Trammell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@trammell.ch">ietf=
@trammell.ch</a>&gt;; Eggert, Lars &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lars@netapp.com">l=
ars@netapp.com</a>&gt;; QUIC WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@i=
etf.org</a>&gt;;
 Martin Thomson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.thomson@gmail.com">martin.thom=
son@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Packet number encryption<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">A few points as I catch up on this thread.<o:p></o:p=
></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">First, I'll remind folks that QUIC is an encrypted t=
ransport. I say this because the cost of this operation is trivial in the c=
ontext of encrypting every packet. The cost is borne at the servers and not=
 at middleboxes, so the additional
 crypto cost is basically trivial.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Second, this simplifies and increases robustness of =
implementation. Avoiding random PN jumps, as Kazuho points out, makes speci=
al-casing of code unnecessary. Special code that is exercised occasionally =
is a strong bug attractor, and I would
 strongly argue for as few of those as possible in implementation.<o:p></o:=
p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Third, yes, ossification is a real concern. A simple=
 example: using increasing packet numbers as a signature for detecting QUIC=
. Even if you argue against this example, there are innovative ways in whic=
h ossification will happen. This is
 based on a true story:&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:#222222;background:white">We had no idea h=
ow GQUIC's flags field could get ossified, the value that was being used co=
mmonly became used as a signature for QUIC traffic
 (see Section 7.5 in the <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/ur=
l?u=3Dhttps-3A__static.googleusercontent.com_media_research.google.com_en_p=
ubs_archive_46403.pdf&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3D5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&amp;r=
=3DC0sUo-LFNBaYfyoaCsf6TA&amp;m=3DSY87I4v_IqTCGOds-j5NCOwkQ0cJcYHGyKdXmMIVn=
6I&amp;s=3DU9o6dI-dwzKwvXHvvmv7WtVm84puvxhaP0cN2of3VvA&amp;e=3D">
SIGCOMM QUIC paper</a>).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">There's a win here in terms of implementation comple=
xity and several implementers have said so. There's a win in terms of ossif=
ication and our experience says so. There's a potential loss of manageabili=
ty, in being able to detect reordering.
 This is the trade-off, and I am still in favor of encrypting packet number=
s.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 7:32 AM, Fossati, Thomas (Nok=
ia - GB/Cambridge, UK) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:thomas.fossati@nokia.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">thomas.fossati@nokia.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">On 31/01/2018, 10:06,=
 &quot;QUIC on behalf of Eggert, Lars&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic-boun=
ces@ietf.org">quic-bounces@ietf.org</a> on behalf of
<a href=3D"mailto:lars@netapp.com">lars@netapp.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; On 2018-1-31, at 10:52, Gorry Fairhurst &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gorry@er=
g.abdn.ac.uk">gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; &#43;1 - Simply: This *is* complicated and seems to add little.<b=
r>
&gt;<br>
&gt; So as an implementor (chair hat off), this adds very little to the<br>
&gt; overall complexity of the protocol.<br>
<br>
This doesn't sound great.&nbsp; It's a bit like saying that adding the Higg=
s<br>
mechanism to the standard model's lagrangian doesn't make it much more<br>
complicate :-)&nbsp; (*)<br>
<br>
More seriously though, I'd like to point out that it is not just about<br>
implementation complexity, it's also the energy cost per packet that is<br>
quite crucial.&nbsp; I haven't done the math but ISTM that bringing in<br>
another batch of non-optional crypto computation on a per packet basis<br>
is not going to move the needle in the right direction for stacks that<br>
run on low power (IoT).<br>
<br>
This is not a catastrophe - we have CoAP and a (D)TLS profile - but<br>
neither it's ideal, since cutting off the small things from the wider<br>
ecosystem creates an artificial gap which then will need a middlebox to<br>
bridge.&nbsp; (Sure, we have specified the behaviour of a similar box<br>
already, but it'd be really better if the extra translation logic could<br>
be avoided in the first place.)<br>
<br>
I guess what I'm saying is that PN encryption being a core mechanism<br>
that can't be negotiated at handshake time reduces our ability to later<br>
profile QUIC for the IoT, which would be a bit unlucky.<br>
<br>
So the question is: would it be possible to make this property a<br>
configurable knob instead?<br>
<br>
(*) <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.s=
ymmetrymagazine.org_article_the-2Ddeconstructed-2Dstandard-2Dmodel-2Dequati=
on&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3D5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&amp;r=3DC0sUo-LFNBaYfyoaCs=
f6TA&amp;m=3DSY87I4v_IqTCGOds-j5NCOwkQ0cJcYHGyKdXmMIVn6I&amp;s=3DetIO0AUHiJ=
m8zucsWaTgo-XULFisCMoG2iDvwC69s9Q&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">
https://www.symmetrymagazine.org/article/the-deconstructed-standard-model-e=
quation</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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Subject: RE: Packet number encryption
To: "Roni Even (A)" <roni.even@huawei.com>, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>, Piotr Galecki <piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.com>,  "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK)" <thomas.fossati@nokia.com>
Cc: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>,  Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>,  =?UTF-8?Q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>,  Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>, "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>
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If you need to troubleshoot a network, what prevents you from injecting
probe packets with random content on the same route? The more opaque QUIC
is, the more likely it is that probe packets would behave the same.

For that matter, QUIC could define stateless probe packets that must route
the same as real connections.

Mikkel


On 4 February 2018 at 18.19.16, Lubashev, Igor (ilubashe@akamai.com) wrote:

The need to troubleshoot networks (at a minimum, to detect packet loss and
reordering) is real.  I would assume that every network would need to have
an ability to do so.  Ability to quickly troubleshoot and fix networks is
not only =E2=80=9Cnice=E2=80=9D for the networks themselves, but it is also=
 very beneficial
to QUIC users.



Having networks wrap and unwrap packets at their boundaries is a
possibility, though it has real costs and downsides.  First, while networks
could setup such wrapping for UDP port 443 traffic, what about QUIC traffic
using other ports?  Would networks need to wrap all UDP traffic?  Second,
this does reduce MTU for end users, reducing available bandwidth.  Third,
this would allow networks to only answer questions like: =E2=80=9CIs my net=
work the
culprit of the problem?=E2=80=9D instead of =E2=80=9CIs the problem in my n=
etwork, upstream
from me, or downstream from me?=E2=80=9D.



Would it be considered outrageous to suggest that packet number encryption
be an option negotiated during connection handshake?  An end user client in
=E2=80=9CPrivacy-Enhanced=E2=80=9D mode would negotiate this, while end use=
rs not
particularly concerned with connection migration linkability issues would
leave this off?



- Igor





*From:* Roni Even (A) [mailto:roni.even@huawei.com]
*Sent:* Sunday, February 04, 2018 2:47 AM
*To:* Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>; Piotr Galecki <
piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.com>; Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>;
Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK) <thomas.fossati@nokia.com>
*Cc:* Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>; Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>;
Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>; Eggert, Lars <lars@netapp.com>;
Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>; Mirja K=C3=BChlewind <
mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>; QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>; Martin Thomson <
martin.thomson@gmail.com>
*Subject:* RE: Packet number encryption



Hi,

Network monitoring:

Networks may always wrap the packet(s) they have received with whatever
data they wish, and unwrap before forwarding. This can allow any network to
understand ordering,  loss, etc within its boundaries.



RE- so you are saying that we can for example  leverage  RTP and define RTP
payload for QUIC that will carry QUIC packets, we will just need to resolve
the MTU size.

Roni





*From:* QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org <quic-bounces@ietf.org>] *On
Behalf Of *Roberto Peon
*Sent:* Saturday, February 03, 2018 8:38 PM
*To:* Piotr Galecki; Jana Iyengar; Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge,
UK)
*Cc:* Gorry Fairhust; Eric Rescorla; Mirja K=C3=BChlewind; Eggert, Lars; Br=
ian
Trammell; Christian Huitema; QUIC WG; Martin Thomson
*Subject:* Re: Packet number encryption



Ossification:

In the past tcp middleboxes expected in-order, monotonically increasing
offsets and tried to fix reordering before forwarding. This middlebox
behavior, predicated on observable flows, prevented deployment of things
which would have made tcp more efficient.



 This is the kind of non-theoretical ossification that drove the creation
of QUIC in the first place.



Network monitoring:

Networks may always wrap the packet(s) they have received with whatever
data they wish, and unwrap before forwarding. This can allow any network to
understand ordering,  loss, etc within its boundaries.



Debugging:

Debugging of flows can still happen for flows that wish to be debugged--
the QUIC connection's key material(s) can be shared manually and used by
the debugging tool. This is how one debugs http2, https, etc. already today=
.



-=3DR







-------- Original message --------

From: Piotr Galecki <piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.com>

Date: 2/2/18 7:00 PM (GMT-08:00)

To: Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>, "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge,
UK)" <thomas.fossati@nokia.com>

Cc: Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>,
Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>,
Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>, Mirja K=C3=BChlewind <
mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Martin Thomson <
martin.thomson@gmail.com>

Subject: RE: Packet number encryption



What is the group=E2=80=99s proposal for allowing network monitoring tools =
to
detect packet retransmission or packet reordering ?

These metrics are pretty straightforward to measure for TCP flows.

Tools like Wireshark can analyze packets and spot issues.

How can the network tools perform this kind of measurements for QUIC flows
if PN field is encrypted?





*From:* QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org <quic-bounces@ietf.org>] *On
Behalf Of *Jana Iyengar
*Sent:* Friday, February 02, 2018 9:31 PM
*To:* Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK) <thomas.fossati@nokia.com>
*Cc:* Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>; Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>;
Mirja K=C3=BChlewind <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>; Christian Huitema <
huitema@huitema.net>; Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>; Eggert, Lars <
lars@netapp.com>; QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>; Martin Thomson <
martin.thomson@gmail.com>
*Subject:* Re: Packet number encryption



A few points as I catch up on this thread.



First, I'll remind folks that QUIC is an encrypted transport. I say this
because the cost of this operation is trivial in the context of encrypting
every packet. The cost is borne at the servers and not at middleboxes, so
the additional crypto cost is basically trivial.



Second, this simplifies and increases robustness of implementation.
Avoiding random PN jumps, as Kazuho points out, makes special-casing of
code unnecessary. Special code that is exercised occasionally is a strong
bug attractor, and I would strongly argue for as few of those as possible
in implementation.



Third, yes, ossification is a real concern. A simple example: using
increasing packet numbers as a signature for detecting QUIC. Even if you
argue against this example, there are innovative ways in which ossification
will happen. This is based on a true story: We had no idea how GQUIC's
flags field could get ossified, the value that was being used commonly
became used as a signature for QUIC traffic (see Section 7.5 in the SIGCOMM
QUIC paper
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__static.googleuserco=
ntent.com_media_research.google.com_en_pubs_archive_46403.pdf&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=
=3D5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=3DC0sUo-LFNBaYfyoaCsf6TA&m=3DSY87I4v_IqTCGOds-j=
5NCOwkQ0cJcYHGyKdXmMIVn6I&s=3DU9o6dI-dwzKwvXHvvmv7WtVm84puvxhaP0cN2of3VvA&e=
=3D>
).



There's a win here in terms of implementation complexity and several
implementers have said so. There's a win in terms of ossification and our
experience says so. There's a potential loss of manageability, in being
able to detect reordering. This is the trade-off, and I am still in favor
of encrypting packet numbers.



On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 7:32 AM, Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK) =
<
thomas.fossati@nokia.com> wrote:

On 31/01/2018, 10:06, "QUIC on behalf of Eggert, Lars" <
quic-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of lars@netapp.com> wrote:
> On 2018-1-31, at 10:52, Gorry Fairhurst <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk> wrote:
> > +1 - Simply: This *is* complicated and seems to add little.
>
> So as an implementor (chair hat off), this adds very little to the
> overall complexity of the protocol.

This doesn't sound great.  It's a bit like saying that adding the Higgs
mechanism to the standard model's lagrangian doesn't make it much more
complicate :-)  (*)

More seriously though, I'd like to point out that it is not just about
implementation complexity, it's also the energy cost per packet that is
quite crucial.  I haven't done the math but ISTM that bringing in
another batch of non-optional crypto computation on a per packet basis
is not going to move the needle in the right direction for stacks that
run on low power (IoT).

This is not a catastrophe - we have CoAP and a (D)TLS profile - but
neither it's ideal, since cutting off the small things from the wider
ecosystem creates an artificial gap which then will need a middlebox to
bridge.  (Sure, we have specified the behaviour of a similar box
already, but it'd be really better if the extra translation logic could
be avoided in the first place.)

I guess what I'm saying is that PN encryption being a core mechanism
that can't be negotiated at handshake time reduces our ability to later
profile QUIC for the IoT, which would be a bit unlucky.

So the question is: would it be possible to make this property a
configurable knob instead?

(*)
https://www.symmetrymagazine.org/article/the-deconstructed-standard-model-e=
quation
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.symmetrymagazin=
e.org_article_the-2Ddeconstructed-2Dstandard-2Dmodel-2Dequation&d=3DDwMGaQ&=
c=3D5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=3DC0sUo-LFNBaYfyoaCsf6TA&m=3DSY87I4v_IqTCGOds-=
j5NCOwkQ0cJcYHGyKdXmMIVn6I&s=3DetIO0AUHiJm8zucsWaTgo-XULFisCMoG2iDvwC69s9Q&=
e=3D>

--94eb2c05a3ec633bed05646660c5
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">If you need to troub=
leshoot a network, what prevents you from injecting probe packets with rand=
om content on the same route? The more opaque QUIC is, the more likely it i=
s that probe packets would behave the same.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfon=
t" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0=
);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin=
:0px;line-height:auto">For that matter, QUIC could define stateless probe p=
ackets that must route the same as real connections.</div> <div id=3D"bloop=
_sign_1517765584170490880" class=3D"bloop_sign"><div style=3D"font-family:h=
elvetica,arial;font-size:13px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-size:13px">Mikk=
el<br><br></div></div> <br><p class=3D"airmail_on">On 4 February 2018 at 18=
.19.16, Lubashev, Igor (<a href=3D"mailto:ilubashe@akamai.com">ilubashe@aka=
mai.com</a>) wrote:</p> <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq"><span>=
<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div></div><div>






<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The need to troubleshoot networks (at a minimum, to =
detect packet loss and reordering) is real.=C2=A0 I would assume that every=
 network would need to have an ability to do so.=C2=A0 Ability to quickly t=
roubleshoot and fix networks is not only =E2=80=9Cnice=E2=80=9D
 for the networks themselves, but it is also very beneficial to QUIC users.=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Having networks wrap and unwrap packets at their bou=
ndaries is a possibility, though it has real costs and downsides.=C2=A0 Fir=
st, while networks could setup such wrapping for UDP port 443 traffic, what=
 about QUIC traffic using other ports?=C2=A0
 Would networks need to wrap all UDP traffic?=C2=A0 Second, this does reduc=
e MTU for end users, reducing available bandwidth.=C2=A0 Third, this would =
allow networks to only answer questions like: =E2=80=9CIs my network the cu=
lprit of the problem?=E2=80=9D instead of =E2=80=9CIs the problem
 in my network, upstream from me, or downstream from me?=E2=80=9D.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Would it be considered outrageous to suggest that pa=
cket number encryption be an option negotiated during connection handshake?=
=C2=A0 An end user client in =E2=80=9CPrivacy-Enhanced=E2=80=9D mode would =
negotiate this, while end users not particularly concerned
 with connection migration linkability issues would leave this off?</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- Igor</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Roni Even (A) [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto=
:roni.even@huawei.com">roni.even@huawei.com</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, February 04, 2018 2:47 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Roberto Peon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.com">fenix@fb.com</a=
>&gt;; Piotr Galecki &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.c=
om">piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.com</a>&gt;; Jana Iyengar &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:jri@google.com">jri@google.com</a>&gt;; Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB=
/Cambridge, UK) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:thomas.fossati@nokia.com">thomas.foss=
ati@nokia.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Gorry Fairhust &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk">gorry=
@erg.abdn.ac.uk</a>&gt;; Eric Rescorla &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com">=
ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;; Christian Huitema &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:huitema@huite=
ma.net">huitema@huitema.net</a>&gt;; Eggert, Lars &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lar=
s@netapp.com">lars@netapp.com</a>&gt;; Brian Trammell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:ietf@trammell.ch">ietf@trammell.ch</a>&gt;; Mirja K=C3=BChlewind &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch">mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.=
ch</a>&gt;; QUIC WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@ietf.org</a>&=
gt;;
 Martin Thomson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.thomson@gmail.com">martin.thom=
son@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Packet number encryption</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">Hi,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">Network monitoring:</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">Networks may always wrap the packet(s) they have=
 received with whatever data they wish, and unwrap before forwarding. This =
can allow any network to understand ordering,=C2=A0
 loss, etc within its boundaries.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">RE- so you are saying that we can for example =
=C2=A0leverage =C2=A0RTP and define RTP payload for QUIC that will carry QU=
IC packets, we will just need to resolve the MTU size.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">Roni</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;f=
ont-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"> QUIC [<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bou=
nces@ietf.org">mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Roberto Peon<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, February 03, 2018 8:38 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Piotr Galecki; Jana Iyengar; Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambrid=
ge, UK)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Gorry Fairhust; Eric Rescorla; Mirja K=C3=BChlewind; Eggert, Lar=
s; Brian Trammell; Christian Huitema; QUIC WG; Martin Thomson<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Packet number encryption</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">Ossification:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">In the past tcp middleboxes expected in-order, m=
onotonically increasing offsets and tried to fix reordering before forwardi=
ng. This middlebox behavior, predicated on observable
 flows, prevented deployment of things which would have made tcp more effic=
ient.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">=C2=A0This is the kind of non-theoretical ossifi=
cation that drove the creation of QUIC in the first place.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">Network monitoring:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">Networks may always wrap the packet(s) they have=
 received with whatever data they wish, and unwrap before forwarding. This =
can allow any network to understand ordering,=C2=A0
 loss, etc within its boundaries.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">Debugging:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">Debugging of flows can still happen for flows th=
at wish to be debugged-- the QUIC connection&#39;s key material(s) can be s=
hared manually and used by the debugging tool. This
 is how one debugs http2, https, etc. already today.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">-=3DR</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">-------- Original message --------</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">From: Piotr Galecki &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:piotr_=
galecki@affirmednetworks.com">piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.com</a>&gt;
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">Date: 2/2/18 7:00 PM (GMT-08:00)
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">To: Jana Iyengar &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jri@googl=
e.com">jri@google.com</a>&gt;, &quot;Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge,=
 UK)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:thomas.fossati@nokia.com">thomas.fossati@n=
okia.com</a>&gt;
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">Cc: Gorry Fairhust &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gorry@e=
rg.abdn.ac.uk">gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk</a>&gt;, Eric Rescorla &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:ekr@rtfm.com">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;, Christian Huitema &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:huitema@huitema.net">huitema@huitema.net</a>&gt;,
 &quot;Eggert, Lars&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lars@netapp.com">lars@netap=
p.com</a>&gt;, Brian Trammell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@trammell.ch">ietf@=
trammell.ch</a>&gt;, Mirja K=C3=BChlewind &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mirja.kuehl=
ewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch">mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch</a>&gt;, QUIC WG
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Martin Thomson=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.thomson@gmail.com">martin.thomson@gmail.com</=
a>&gt;
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">Subject: RE: Packet number encryption
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;,serif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">What is the group=E2=80=99s proposal for allowing ne=
twork monitoring tools to detect packet retransmission or packet reordering=
 ?</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">These metrics are pretty straightforward to measure =
for TCP flows.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Tools like Wireshark can analyze packets and spot is=
sues.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">How can the network tools perform this kind of measu=
rements for QUIC flows if PN field is encrypted?</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> QUIC [<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bounces@ie=
tf.org">mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jana Iyengar<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 02, 2018 9:31 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:thomas.fossati@nokia.com">thomas.fossati@nokia.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Gorry Fairhust &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk">gorry=
@erg.abdn.ac.uk</a>&gt;; Eric Rescorla &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com">=
ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;; Mirja K=C3=BChlewind &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mirja.kueh=
lewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch">mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch</a>&gt;;
 Christian Huitema &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:huitema@huitema.net">huitema@huite=
ma.net</a>&gt;; Brian Trammell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@trammell.ch">ietf=
@trammell.ch</a>&gt;; Eggert, Lars &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lars@netapp.com">l=
ars@netapp.com</a>&gt;; QUIC WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@i=
etf.org</a>&gt;;
 Martin Thomson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.thomson@gmail.com">martin.thom=
son@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Packet number encryption</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">A few points as I catch up on this thread.</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">First, I&#39;ll remind folks that QUIC is an encrypt=
ed transport. I say this because the cost of this operation is trivial in t=
he context of encrypting every packet. The cost is borne at the servers and=
 not at middleboxes, so the additional
 crypto cost is basically trivial.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Second, this simplifies and increases robustness of =
implementation. Avoiding random PN jumps, as Kazuho points out, makes speci=
al-casing of code unnecessary. Special code that is exercised occasionally =
is a strong bug attractor, and I would
 strongly argue for as few of those as possible in implementation.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Third, yes, ossification is a real concern. A simple=
 example: using increasing packet numbers as a signature for detecting QUIC=
. Even if you argue against this example, there are innovative ways in whic=
h ossification will happen. This is
 based on a true story:=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:#222222;background:white">We had no idea h=
ow GQUIC&#39;s flags field could get ossified, the value that was being use=
d commonly became used as a signature for QUIC traffic
 (see Section 7.5 in the <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/ur=
l?u=3Dhttps-3A__static.googleusercontent.com_media_research.google.com_en_p=
ubs_archive_46403.pdf&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3D5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&amp;r=
=3DC0sUo-LFNBaYfyoaCsf6TA&amp;m=3DSY87I4v_IqTCGOds-j5NCOwkQ0cJcYHGyKdXmMIVn=
6I&amp;s=3DU9o6dI-dwzKwvXHvvmv7WtVm84puvxhaP0cN2of3VvA&amp;e=3D">
SIGCOMM QUIC paper</a>).</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">There&#39;s a win here in terms of implementation co=
mplexity and several implementers have said so. There&#39;s a win in terms =
of ossification and our experience says so. There&#39;s a potential loss of=
 manageability, in being able to detect reordering.
 This is the trade-off, and I am still in favor of encrypting packet number=
s.</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 7:32 AM, Fossati, Thomas (Nok=
ia - GB/Cambridge, UK) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:thomas.fossati@nokia.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">thomas.fossati@nokia.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">On 31/01/2018, 10:06,=
 &quot;QUIC on behalf of Eggert, Lars&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic-boun=
ces@ietf.org">quic-bounces@ietf.org</a> on behalf of
<a href=3D"mailto:lars@netapp.com">lars@netapp.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; On 2018-1-31, at 10:52, Gorry Fairhurst &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gorry@er=
g.abdn.ac.uk">gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; +1 - Simply: This *is* complicated and seems to add little.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; So as an implementor (chair hat off), this adds very little to the<br>
&gt; overall complexity of the protocol.<br>
<br>
This doesn&#39;t sound great.=C2=A0 It&#39;s a bit like saying that adding =
the Higgs<br>
mechanism to the standard model&#39;s lagrangian doesn&#39;t make it much m=
ore<br>
complicate :-)=C2=A0 (*)<br>
<br>
More seriously though, I&#39;d like to point out that it is not just about<=
br>
implementation complexity, it&#39;s also the energy cost per packet that is=
<br>
quite crucial.=C2=A0 I haven&#39;t done the math but ISTM that bringing in<=
br>
another batch of non-optional crypto computation on a per packet basis<br>
is not going to move the needle in the right direction for stacks that<br>
run on low power (IoT).<br>
<br>
This is not a catastrophe - we have CoAP and a (D)TLS profile - but<br>
neither it&#39;s ideal, since cutting off the small things from the wider<b=
r>
ecosystem creates an artificial gap which then will need a middlebox to<br>
bridge.=C2=A0 (Sure, we have specified the behaviour of a similar box<br>
already, but it&#39;d be really better if the extra translation logic could=
<br>
be avoided in the first place.)<br>
<br>
I guess what I&#39;m saying is that PN encryption being a core mechanism<br=
>
that can&#39;t be negotiated at handshake time reduces our ability to later=
<br>
profile QUIC for the IoT, which would be a bit unlucky.<br>
<br>
So the question is: would it be possible to make this property a<br>
configurable knob instead?<br>
<br>
(*) <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.s=
ymmetrymagazine.org_article_the-2Ddeconstructed-2Dstandard-2Dmodel-2Dequati=
on&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3D5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&amp;r=3DC0sUo-LFNBaYfyoaCs=
f6TA&amp;m=3DSY87I4v_IqTCGOds-j5NCOwkQ0cJcYHGyKdXmMIVn6I&amp;s=3DetIO0AUHiJ=
m8zucsWaTgo-XULFisCMoG2iDvwC69s9Q&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">
https://www.symmetrymagazine.org/article/the-deconstructed-standard-model-e=
quation</a></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>


</div></div></span></blockquote></body></html>

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Cc: "Roni Even (A)" <roni.even@huawei.com>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, Piotr Galecki <piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.com>, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>, "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK)" <thomas.fossati@nokia.com>, Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>, Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>, =?utf-8?Q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
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To: "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
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=20

> On Feb 4, 2018, at 7:18 AM, Lubashev, Igor <ilubashe@akamai.com> wrote:
> ...
> =20
> Having networks wrap and unwrap packets at their boundaries is a possibili=
ty, though it has real costs and downsides.  First, while networks could set=
up such wrapping for UDP port 443 traffic, what about QUIC traffic using oth=
er ports?  Would networks need to wrap all UDP traffic?  Second, this does r=
educe MTU for end users, reducing available bandwidth.  Third, this would al=
low networks to only answer questions like: =E2=80=9CIs my network the culpr=
it of the problem?=E2=80=9D instead of =E2=80=9CIs the problem in my network=
, upstream from me, or downstream from me?=E2=80=9D.

This is exactly why I believe the proper place for things like spin bits or s=
hort sequence numbers is in the IP header. That would be a really neat use o=
f the IPv6 flow ID.
> =20
> Would it be considered outrageous to suggest that packet number encryption=
 be an option negotiated during connection handshake?  An end user client in=
 =E2=80=9CPrivacy-Enhanced=E2=80=9D mode would negotiate this, while end use=
rs not particularly concerned with connection migration linkability issues w=
ould leave this off?

Negotiate privacy off in the name of network performance? Very slippery slop=
e! For example, the connections that do require privacy would stick out.

-- Christian Huitema=

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto">&nbsp;<br><div><br>On Feb 4, 2018, at 7:18 A=
M, Lubashev, Igor &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ilubashe@akamai.com">ilubashe@akamai=
.com</a>&gt; wrote:<span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-siz=
e: 11pt;">...</span></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div class=3D"WordSectio=
n1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Having networks wrap and unwrap packets at their boun=
daries is a possibility, though it has real costs and downsides. &nbsp;First=
, while networks could setup such wrapping for UDP port 443 traffic, what ab=
out QUIC traffic using other ports?&nbsp;
 Would networks need to wrap all UDP traffic?&nbsp; Second, this does reduce=
 MTU for end users, reducing available bandwidth.&nbsp; Third, this would al=
low networks to only answer questions like: =E2=80=9CIs my network the culpr=
it of the problem?=E2=80=9D instead of =E2=80=9CIs the problem
 in my network, upstream from me, or downstream from me?=E2=80=9D.</p></div>=
</blockquote><div><br></div><div>This is exactly why I believe the proper pl=
ace for things like spin bits or short sequence numbers is in the IP header.=
 That would be a really neat use of the IPv6 flow ID.</div><blockquote type=3D=
"cite"><div class=3D"WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Would it be considered outrageous to suggest that pac=
ket number encryption be an option negotiated during connection handshake?&n=
bsp; An end user client in =E2=80=9CPrivacy-Enhanced=E2=80=9D mode would neg=
otiate this, while end users not particularly concerned
 with connection migration linkability issues would leave this off?</p><div>=
<div><div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>


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--></style><div>Negotiate privacy off in the name of network performance? Ve=
ry slippery slope! For example, the connections that do require privacy woul=
d stick out.</div><div><br></div><div>-- Christian Huitema</div></body></htm=
l>=

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From: "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>
To: =?utf-8?B?TWlra2VsIEZhaG7DuGUgSsO4cmdlbnNlbg==?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>, "Roni Even (A)" <roni.even@huawei.com>, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, Piotr Galecki <piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.com>, "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK)" <thomas.fossati@nokia.com>
CC: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, =?utf-8?B?TWlyamEgS8O8aGxld2luZA==?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>, "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>
Subject: RE: Packet number encryption
Thread-Topic: Packet number encryption
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Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2018 17:48:58 +0000
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Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
To: "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>, "Roni Even (A)" <roni.even@huawei.com>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, Piotr Galecki <piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.com>, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>, "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK)" <thomas.fossati@nokia.com>
Cc: Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, =?UTF-8?Q?Mirja_K=c3=bchlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>, Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
References: <CABkgnnVyo3MmWtVULiV=FJTnR528qfY8-OmKGWAs0bCvri-a_g@mail.gmail.com> <1F7FB3B8-A94C-4354-9944-FB09FB8DB68B@trammell.ch> <CABcZeBMbwdwyC9TxxHBLYaZKfNB-FG2wCGjqUZ_mNR-A1R47FA@mail.gmail.com> <9096e5ec-581e-875a-b1dd-bff0b05206fd@huitema.net> <CABkgnnWRQSAufwPss+qf=xAzCwRYeNNH8XLPm3yFaHxOb+ba4g@mail.gmail.com> <BF80500A-6277-45DC-8525-9C3FE138B76D@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <5A7191E0.6010003@erg.abdn.ac.uk> <5214AD93-8376-4B25-922F-AF5551CC2E95@netapp.com> <F990E064-E6F8-41A3-B791-F776C9955E15@nokia.com> <CAGD1bZab0GaZFsHwC+nw3AxxC4VusxMJ6oDanzk3dSDdWKAXdw@mail.gmail.com> <2C515BE8694C6F4B9B6A578BCAC32E2F83BA1443@MBX021-W3-CA-2.exch021.domain.local> <BY2PR15MB07757473DB9788558B902EB5CDF80@BY2PR15MB0775.namprd15.prod.outlook.com> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD861B7F@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> <e529144067624fcba636fc8c24ee3ff4@usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com>
From: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
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From: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
To: "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>,
 "Roni Even (A)" <roni.even@huawei.com>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>,
 Piotr Galecki <piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.com>,
 Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>,
 "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK)" <thomas.fossati@nokia.com>
Cc: Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>,
 =?UTF-8?Q?Mirja_K=c3=bchlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>,
 "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>, Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>,
 Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>,
 Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <91a9d1df-c3f3-127b-ba59-942c275c00e1@cs.tcd.ie>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
References: <CABkgnnVyo3MmWtVULiV=FJTnR528qfY8-OmKGWAs0bCvri-a_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <1F7FB3B8-A94C-4354-9944-FB09FB8DB68B@trammell.ch>
 <CABcZeBMbwdwyC9TxxHBLYaZKfNB-FG2wCGjqUZ_mNR-A1R47FA@mail.gmail.com>
 <9096e5ec-581e-875a-b1dd-bff0b05206fd@huitema.net>
 <CABkgnnWRQSAufwPss+qf=xAzCwRYeNNH8XLPm3yFaHxOb+ba4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <BF80500A-6277-45DC-8525-9C3FE138B76D@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
 <5A7191E0.6010003@erg.abdn.ac.uk>
 <5214AD93-8376-4B25-922F-AF5551CC2E95@netapp.com>
 <F990E064-E6F8-41A3-B791-F776C9955E15@nokia.com>
 <CAGD1bZab0GaZFsHwC+nw3AxxC4VusxMJ6oDanzk3dSDdWKAXdw@mail.gmail.com>
 <2C515BE8694C6F4B9B6A578BCAC32E2F83BA1443@MBX021-W3-CA-2.exch021.domain.local>
 <BY2PR15MB07757473DB9788558B902EB5CDF80@BY2PR15MB0775.namprd15.prod.outlook.com>
 <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD861B7F@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com>
 <e529144067624fcba636fc8c24ee3ff4@usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com>
In-Reply-To: <e529144067624fcba636fc8c24ee3ff4@usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com>

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Hiya,

On 04/02/18 17:18, Lubashev, Igor wrote:
> Would it be considered outrageous to suggest that packet number
> encryption be an option negotiated during connection handshake?  An
> end user client in "Privacy-Enhanced" mode would negotiate this,
> while end users not particularly concerned with connection migration
> linkability issues would leave this off?

I agree with Christian's points.

In addition, I'd like to point out a flaw in the above - the question
is posed in terms of an "end user client" making decisions for "end
users not particularly concerned" with a privacy enhancing feature. I
don't believe that programmers can really determine such things (no
matter how often someone says they "care deeply";-) so would hope the
WG adopts an approach of not making such features optional for this
reason, as well as for the usual "more options =3D=3D bad plan" reasons.

Cheers,
S.


--=20
PGP key change time for me.
New-ID 7B172BEA; old-ID 805F8DA2 expires Jan 24 2018.
NewWithOld sigs in keyservers.
Sorry if that mucks something up;-)

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From nobody Sun Feb  4 11:11:15 2018
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From: "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge)" <thomas.fossati@nokia.com>
To: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>
CC: Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, =?utf-8?B?TWlyamEgS8O8aGxld2luZA==?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>, "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>, "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge)" <thomas.fossati@nokia.com>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
Thread-Topic: Packet number encryption
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Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2018 19:11:06 +0000
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References: <CABkgnnVyo3MmWtVULiV=FJTnR528qfY8-OmKGWAs0bCvri-a_g@mail.gmail.com> <1F7FB3B8-A94C-4354-9944-FB09FB8DB68B@trammell.ch> <CABcZeBMbwdwyC9TxxHBLYaZKfNB-FG2wCGjqUZ_mNR-A1R47FA@mail.gmail.com> <9096e5ec-581e-875a-b1dd-bff0b05206fd@huitema.net> <CABkgnnWRQSAufwPss+qf=xAzCwRYeNNH8XLPm3yFaHxOb+ba4g@mail.gmail.com> <BF80500A-6277-45DC-8525-9C3FE138B76D@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <5A7191E0.6010003@erg.abdn.ac.uk> <5214AD93-8376-4B25-922F-AF5551CC2E95@netapp.com> <F990E064-E6F8-41A3-B791-F776C9955E15@nokia.com> <CAGD1bZab0GaZFsHwC+nw3AxxC4VusxMJ6oDanzk3dSDdWKAXdw@mail.gmail.com> <6670AEA8-081F-4523-8F1C-DF5B26AF5A0F@nokia.com> <2fe4293f-1634-a27c-835b-33c8b24c23c5@cs.tcd.ie>
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From: "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge)" <thomas.fossati@nokia.com>
To: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>, "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>, "Roni Even (A)" <roni.even@huawei.com>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, Piotr Galecki <piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.com>, "Jana Iyengar" <jri@google.com>
CC: Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, =?utf-8?B?TWlyamEgS8O8aGxld2luZA==?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>, Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, "Martin Thomson" <martin.thomson@gmail.com>, "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge)" <thomas.fossati@nokia.com>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
Thread-Topic: Packet number encryption
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Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2018 19:14:23 +0000
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Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
To: "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge)" <thomas.fossati@nokia.com>, "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>, "Roni Even (A)" <roni.even@huawei.com>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, Piotr Galecki <piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.com>, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>
Cc: Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>, Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>, =?UTF-8?Q?Mirja_K=c3=bchlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
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From: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
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From: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
To: "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge)" <thomas.fossati@nokia.com>,
 "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>, "Roni Even (A)"
 <roni.even@huawei.com>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>,
 Piotr Galecki <piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.com>,
 Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>
Cc: Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>,
 Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>,
 Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>,
 =?UTF-8?Q?Mirja_K=c3=bchlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>,
 QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f024acd4-0621-6f22-42dd-e03d0c2b47fd@cs.tcd.ie>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
References: <CABkgnnVyo3MmWtVULiV=FJTnR528qfY8-OmKGWAs0bCvri-a_g@mail.gmail.com>
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 <9096e5ec-581e-875a-b1dd-bff0b05206fd@huitema.net>
 <CABkgnnWRQSAufwPss+qf=xAzCwRYeNNH8XLPm3yFaHxOb+ba4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <BF80500A-6277-45DC-8525-9C3FE138B76D@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
 <5A7191E0.6010003@erg.abdn.ac.uk>
 <5214AD93-8376-4B25-922F-AF5551CC2E95@netapp.com>
 <F990E064-E6F8-41A3-B791-F776C9955E15@nokia.com>
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Hiya,

On 04/02/18 19:14, Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge) wrote:
> On 04/02/2018, 18:51, "Stephen Farrell" <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
> wrote:
>> In addition, I'd like to point out a flaw in the above - the
>> question is posed in terms of an "end user client" making decisions
>> for "end users not particularly concerned" with a privacy enhancing
>> feature. I don't believe that programmers can really determine such
>> things (no matter how often someone says they "care deeply";-)
>=20
> In user agents I guess this would be handled as a configurable
> user's preference, not a as hard-coded value.  We could have it MTI
> and on by default.  Software vendors who produce user facing
> technology have a strong incentive to do this kind of things right.

Hmm, it's a bit of an aside, and likely not decidable, but I'm not
sure you're right that implementers (whether vendors or open-source
implementers or whatever) are always driven by end-user's concerns.

And in this case, I'm not sure that an application-by-application
approach even works - even if N-1 of the N applications I use do a
great job wrt linkability, when the N-th application is careless I
can lose all benefits. (And yes, combinations of TCP and DHCP can
result in the same bad outcome, but that's not a reason to do less
well than we can IMO.)

So I still hope the WG study the trade-offs and make doing the best
we can for privacy the only option.

S.



>=20
> Cheers!
>=20

--=20
PGP key change time for me.
New-ID 7B172BEA; old-ID 805F8DA2 expires Jan 24 2018.
NewWithOld sigs in keyservers.
Sorry if that mucks something up;-)

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From nobody Sun Feb  4 11:26:21 2018
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Received: (from willy@localhost) by mail.home.local (8.14.4/8.14.4/Submit) id w14IPoHP015744; Sun, 4 Feb 2018 19:25:50 +0100
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2018 19:25:50 +0100
From: Willy Tarreau <w@1wt.eu>
To: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
Cc: "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>, Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, Mirja =?iso-8859-1?Q?K=FChlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK)" <thomas.fossati@nokia.com>, "Roni Even (A)" <roni.even@huawei.com>, "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>, Piotr Galecki <piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.com>, Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
Message-ID: <20180204182550.GA19526@1wt.eu>
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References: <BF80500A-6277-45DC-8525-9C3FE138B76D@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <5A7191E0.6010003@erg.abdn.ac.uk> <5214AD93-8376-4B25-922F-AF5551CC2E95@netapp.com> <F990E064-E6F8-41A3-B791-F776C9955E15@nokia.com> <CAGD1bZab0GaZFsHwC+nw3AxxC4VusxMJ6oDanzk3dSDdWKAXdw@mail.gmail.com> <2C515BE8694C6F4B9B6A578BCAC32E2F83BA1443@MBX021-W3-CA-2.exch021.domain.local> <BY2PR15MB07757473DB9788558B902EB5CDF80@BY2PR15MB0775.namprd15.prod.outlook.com> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD861B7F@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> <e529144067624fcba636fc8c24ee3ff4@usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com> <888DE2C2-4EDA-445A-B08F-76DD016C9CA0@huitema.net>
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On Sun, Feb 04, 2018 at 07:40:41AM -1000, Christian Huitema wrote:
> Negotiate privacy off in the name of network performance? Very slippery
> slope! For example, the connections that do require privacy would stick out.

Well, I personally have stopped fighting on this subject. I've long been
bored by the obsession of this so-called "privacy" which justifies any
possible protocol degradation and loss of efficiency to hide I-don't-
know-what, even sometimes destroying basic security at the same time.

Today, people who want to hide their activities use VPNs. Those of us
having had to help diagnose network issues on IPSEC connections know
that you can't debug anything and that the only fix is to try to randomly
replace elements and settings on the path, and to ultimately get rid of
this protocol in favor of other solutions with less moving parts.

Yes I too am a bit worried about what QUIC will become. The lack of
observability may even result in the impossibility at all to build a
working firewall to protect the users. Thus instead of nasty people
just counting packets on the wire, they'll have an open path to remotely
install malware into their victim's devices without any possibility
for them to be protected, leaking all their data and history even
more easily than today.

The Internet infrastructure is robust and fragile at the same time,
it's robust against attacks and hardware failures, but it's fragile
in front of design mistakes, especially if they're deployed on each
and every browser and/or web server. I think it's important to take
care of it and to ensure it always remains possible to heal it and
to enhance it.

I'd rather see some choices offered to the end user in fact. Just like
right now some decide to use a VPN, some may decide to enable some
super-privacy features that possibly make their connections a bit less
reliable, less performant, and prevent them from using an efficient
firewall, but it will be their choice at least. And it would allow
us to go even further in the privacy domain, possibly contemplating
options making it even harder to fix protocol issues but protect users
better (eg: the spin bit was a tradeoff to satisfy everyone, with an
opt-in solution it's not even needed anymore).

Having a bit indicate if the sequence number is encrypted or not could
be enough :
  - the sender decides to use clear sequence numbers and clears the bit
  - the sender decides to use encrypted sequence numbers and sets the bit.
  - the receiver knows how to decode the sequence number based on this bit.
  - a middle box could not achieve anything by clearing this bit since it
    would mean that the resulting values would appear as almost random and
    would not be usable by the other end.

Just my two cents,
Willy


From nobody Sun Feb  4 11:31:22 2018
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From: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
To: "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
CC: Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>, "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK)" <thomas.fossati@nokia.com>, "Roni Even (A)" <roni.even@huawei.com>, =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mirja_K=FChlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>, "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>, Piotr Galecki <piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.com>
Subject: RE: Packet number encryption
Thread-Topic: Packet number encryption
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References: <BF80500A-6277-45DC-8525-9C3FE138B76D@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <5A7191E0.6010003@erg.abdn.ac.uk> <5214AD93-8376-4B25-922F-AF5551CC2E95@netapp.com> <F990E064-E6F8-41A3-B791-F776C9955E15@nokia.com> <CAGD1bZab0GaZFsHwC+nw3AxxC4VusxMJ6oDanzk3dSDdWKAXdw@mail.gmail.com> <2C515BE8694C6F4B9B6A578BCAC32E2F83BA1443@MBX021-W3-CA-2.exch021.domain.local> <BY2PR15MB07757473DB9788558B902EB5CDF80@BY2PR15MB0775.namprd15.prod.outlook.com> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD861B7F@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> <e529144067624fcba636fc8c24ee3ff4@usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com> <888DE2C2-4EDA-445A-B08F-76DD016C9CA0@huitema.net> <20180204182550.GA19526@1wt.eu>
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>From the charter "This work will ensure that QUIC has security and privacy =
properties that are at least as good as a stack composed of TLS 1.3  using =
TCP (or MPTCP when using multipath)."

Is the discussion mainly focused on connection migration which is not prese=
nt in TCP? There seem to be bigger privacy problems due to DNS and TLS SNI =
extension so in real deployments will packet number encryption add value ot=
her than preventing ossification?=20

Is a cryptographically secure random initial packet number and random (forw=
ard) jumps in packet number not good enough to prevent ossification? The mi=
ssing packet number range due to the forward jump could be communicated in =
the encrypted payload so the receiver knows they are not missing.

Thanks

-----Original Message-----
From: QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Willy Tarreau
Sent: Sunday, February 4, 2018 10:26 AM
To: huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
Cc: Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>; Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>; Br=
ian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>; Lubashev, Igor <ilubashe@akamai.com>; Robe=
rto Peon <fenix@fb.com>; Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK) <thomas=
.fossati@nokia.com>; Roni Even (A) <roni.even@huawei.com>; Mirja K=FChlewin=
d <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>; Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>; Eggert,=
 Lars <lars@netapp.com>; QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>; Martin Thomson <martin.th=
omson@gmail.com>; Piotr Galecki <piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.com>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption

On Sun, Feb 04, 2018 at 07:40:41AM -1000, Christian Huitema wrote:
> Negotiate privacy off in the name of network performance? Very=20
> slippery slope! For example, the connections that do require privacy woul=
d stick out.

Well, I personally have stopped fighting on this subject. I've long been bo=
red by the obsession of this so-called "privacy" which justifies any possib=
le protocol degradation and loss of efficiency to hide I-don't- know-what, =
even sometimes destroying basic security at the same time.

Today, people who want to hide their activities use VPNs. Those of us havin=
g had to help diagnose network issues on IPSEC connections know that you ca=
n't debug anything and that the only fix is to try to randomly replace elem=
ents and settings on the path, and to ultimately get rid of this protocol i=
n favor of other solutions with less moving parts.

Yes I too am a bit worried about what QUIC will become. The lack of observa=
bility may even result in the impossibility at all to build a working firew=
all to protect the users. Thus instead of nasty people just counting packet=
s on the wire, they'll have an open path to remotely install malware into t=
heir victim's devices without any possibility for them to be protected, lea=
king all their data and history even more easily than today.

The Internet infrastructure is robust and fragile at the same time, it's ro=
bust against attacks and hardware failures, but it's fragile in front of de=
sign mistakes, especially if they're deployed on each and every browser and=
/or web server. I think it's important to take care of it and to ensure it =
always remains possible to heal it and to enhance it.

I'd rather see some choices offered to the end user in fact. Just like righ=
t now some decide to use a VPN, some may decide to enable some super-privac=
y features that possibly make their connections a bit less reliable, less p=
erformant, and prevent them from using an efficient firewall, but it will b=
e their choice at least. And it would allow us to go even further in the pr=
ivacy domain, possibly contemplating options making it even harder to fix p=
rotocol issues but protect users better (eg: the spin bit was a tradeoff to=
 satisfy everyone, with an opt-in solution it's not even needed anymore).

Having a bit indicate if the sequence number is encrypted or not could be e=
nough :
  - the sender decides to use clear sequence numbers and clears the bit
  - the sender decides to use encrypted sequence numbers and sets the bit.
  - the receiver knows how to decode the sequence number based on this bit.
  - a middle box could not achieve anything by clearing this bit since it
    would mean that the resulting values would appear as almost random and
    would not be usable by the other end.

Just my two cents,
Willy


From nobody Sun Feb  4 11:46:30 2018
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From: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
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Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2018 09:46:11 -1000
Cc: "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>, "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK)" <thomas.fossati@nokia.com>, "Roni Even (A)" <roni.even@huawei.com>, =?utf-8?Q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>, "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>, Piotr Galecki <piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.com>
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References: <BF80500A-6277-45DC-8525-9C3FE138B76D@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <5A7191E0.6010003@erg.abdn.ac.uk> <5214AD93-8376-4B25-922F-AF5551CC2E95@netapp.com> <F990E064-E6F8-41A3-B791-F776C9955E15@nokia.com> <CAGD1bZab0GaZFsHwC+nw3AxxC4VusxMJ6oDanzk3dSDdWKAXdw@mail.gmail.com> <2C515BE8694C6F4B9B6A578BCAC32E2F83BA1443@MBX021-W3-CA-2.exch021.domain.local> <BY2PR15MB07757473DB9788558B902EB5CDF80@BY2PR15MB0775.namprd15.prod.outlook.com> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD861B7F@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> <e529144067624fcba636fc8c24ee3ff4@usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com> <888DE2C2-4EDA-445A-B08F-76DD016C9CA0@huitema.net> <20180204182550.GA19526@1wt.eu> <CY4PR21MB0133E20F8C20889A477CDB67B6FF0@CY4PR21MB0133.namprd21.prod.outlook.com>
To: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
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> On Feb 4, 2018, at 9:31 AM, Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com> w=
rote:
>=20
> =46rom the charter "This work will ensure that QUIC has security and priva=
cy properties that are at least as good as a stack composed of TLS 1.3  usin=
g TCP (or MPTCP when using multipath)."
>=20
> Is the discussion mainly focused on connection migration which is not pres=
ent in TCP? There seem to be bigger privacy problems due to DNS and TLS SNI e=
xtension so in real deployments will packet number encryption add value othe=
r than preventing ossification?=20

Yes, we need to fix the SNI issue. Clear text ALPN too. But should not preve=
nt us from fixing everything else.

>=20
> Is a cryptographically secure random initial packet number and random (for=
ward) jumps in packet number not good enough to prevent ossification? The mi=
ssing packet number range due to the forward jump could be communicated in t=
he encrypted payload so the receiver knows they are not missing.
>=20

No, random jumps are not enough. It turns out that during migration packets a=
re often sent simultaneously on both paths. The pattern of increases and hol=
es is enough to correlate the two paths.

In practice there are two possible designs: packet number encryption as curr=
ently documented; or, independent sequence number space and encryption conte=
xt for each path. Both work. The one we have is significantly easier to impl=
ement. The other exposes the sequence number, which may ease network monitor=
ing but also could drive ossification.

Now is a good time to have this discussion.

-- Christian Huitema=20=


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From: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
To: huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
CC: "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>, "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK)" <thomas.fossati@nokia.com>, "Roni Even (A)" <roni.even@huawei.com>, =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mirja_K=FChlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>, "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>, Piotr Galecki <piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.com>
Subject: RE: Packet number encryption
Thread-Topic: Packet number encryption
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Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2018 19:55:52 +0000
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References: <BF80500A-6277-45DC-8525-9C3FE138B76D@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <5A7191E0.6010003@erg.abdn.ac.uk> <5214AD93-8376-4B25-922F-AF5551CC2E95@netapp.com> <F990E064-E6F8-41A3-B791-F776C9955E15@nokia.com> <CAGD1bZab0GaZFsHwC+nw3AxxC4VusxMJ6oDanzk3dSDdWKAXdw@mail.gmail.com> <2C515BE8694C6F4B9B6A578BCAC32E2F83BA1443@MBX021-W3-CA-2.exch021.domain.local> <BY2PR15MB07757473DB9788558B902EB5CDF80@BY2PR15MB0775.namprd15.prod.outlook.com> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD861B7F@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> <e529144067624fcba636fc8c24ee3ff4@usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com> <888DE2C2-4EDA-445A-B08F-76DD016C9CA0@huitema.net> <20180204182550.GA19526@1wt.eu> <CY4PR21MB0133E20F8C20889A477CDB67B6FF0@CY4PR21MB0133.namprd21.prod.outlook.com> <938555E5-F328-41B0-B61F-09FC02B84397@huitema.net>
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Ok this answers my question that this is targeted at the migration scenario=
.=20

If jumps are random and cryptographically seeded I don't understand why the=
re would be a pattern. We already use this type of mechanism for TCP ISN an=
d IP header Identification fields. The adversary could also use the side ch=
annel timing attack of just observing the sending and receiving application=
 rate for correlation between the two paths (after factoring in the RTT).=20

If independent sequence space (with randomization) can work just as well I'=
d rather pick that over encryption for efficiency reasons. It should solve =
ossification but I am not a privacy expert.

-----Original Message-----
From: Christian Huitema [mailto:huitema@huitema.net]=20
Sent: Sunday, February 4, 2018 11:46 AM
To: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
Cc: quic@ietf.org; Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>; Eric Rescorla <ek=
r@rtfm.com>; Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>; Lubashev, Igor <ilubashe@ak=
amai.com>; Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>; Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambrid=
ge, UK) <thomas.fossati@nokia.com>; Roni Even (A) <roni.even@huawei.com>; M=
irja K=FChlewind <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>; Jana Iyengar <jri@googl=
e.com>; Eggert, Lars <lars@netapp.com>; Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmai=
l.com>; Piotr Galecki <piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.com>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption



> On Feb 4, 2018, at 9:31 AM, Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>=
 wrote:
>=20
> From the charter "This work will ensure that QUIC has security and privac=
y properties that are at least as good as a stack composed of TLS 1.3  usin=
g TCP (or MPTCP when using multipath)."
>=20
> Is the discussion mainly focused on connection migration which is not pre=
sent in TCP? There seem to be bigger privacy problems due to DNS and TLS SN=
I extension so in real deployments will packet number encryption add value =
other than preventing ossification?=20

Yes, we need to fix the SNI issue. Clear text ALPN too. But should not prev=
ent us from fixing everything else.

>=20
> Is a cryptographically secure random initial packet number and random (fo=
rward) jumps in packet number not good enough to prevent ossification? The =
missing packet number range due to the forward jump could be communicated i=
n the encrypted payload so the receiver knows they are not missing.
>=20

No, random jumps are not enough. It turns out that during migration packets=
 are often sent simultaneously on both paths. The pattern of increases and =
holes is enough to correlate the two paths.

In practice there are two possible designs: packet number encryption as cur=
rently documented; or, independent sequence number space and encryption con=
text for each path. Both work. The one we have is significantly easier to i=
mplement. The other exposes the sequence number, which may ease network mon=
itoring but also could drive ossification.

Now is a good time to have this discussion.

-- Christian Huitema=20


From nobody Sun Feb  4 12:32:01 2018
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References: <BF80500A-6277-45DC-8525-9C3FE138B76D@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <5A7191E0.6010003@erg.abdn.ac.uk> <5214AD93-8376-4B25-922F-AF5551CC2E95@netapp.com> <F990E064-E6F8-41A3-B791-F776C9955E15@nokia.com> <CAGD1bZab0GaZFsHwC+nw3AxxC4VusxMJ6oDanzk3dSDdWKAXdw@mail.gmail.com> <2C515BE8694C6F4B9B6A578BCAC32E2F83BA1443@MBX021-W3-CA-2.exch021.domain.local> <BY2PR15MB07757473DB9788558B902EB5CDF80@BY2PR15MB0775.namprd15.prod.outlook.com> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD861B7F@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> <e529144067624fcba636fc8c24ee3ff4@usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com> <888DE2C2-4EDA-445A-B08F-76DD016C9CA0@huitema.net> <20180204182550.GA19526@1wt.eu> <CY4PR21MB0133E20F8C20889A477CDB67B6FF0@CY4PR21MB0133.namprd21.prod.outlook.com> <938555E5-F328-41B0-B61F-09FC02B84397@huitema.net> <CY4PR21MB01339A0AD4FCF660365C4E54B6FF0@CY4PR21MB0133.namprd21.prod.outlook.com>
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Subject: RE: Packet number encryption
To: huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
Cc: "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK)" <thomas.fossati@nokia.com>,  =?UTF-8?Q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>,  Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>, Piotr Galecki <piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.com>,  "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>, Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>,  Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>,  Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>,  "Roni Even (A)" <roni.even@huawei.com>
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--001a114a9d82326d05056468d631
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One aspect of randomised gaps that might be overlooked is that packet
numbers are only sent with the lower 4 bytes at most. This means that a
randomised gap on a new connection ID is not different from a new packet
number that starts at a random offset because you cannot tell if it rolled
over without knowing more about the connection.

However, if migration does not look like a new connection, at least a
0-RTT, it is all a mood point because the sudden appearance of data on a
new connection ID combined with the silence of another ID, and probably
also characteristic changes in packet delays and sizes during migration,
along with GeoIP, are all fingerprinting the connection.

On monitoring packets inside a network, there are probably many new
unexplored possibilities to track reordering of encrypted packet numbers.
For example, one could create a bloom filter to record the packet numbers
seen in a block of N packets, for example syncing wherever the lower packet
number bits are all 0, or something. Packet loss would show up as fewer
matches when comparing filters at different nodes. Or the lower 8 bits of
each packet number in a block could be concatenated to a string and
compared with levenshtein edit distance - even just the lower two bits of
each packet might suffice. The fact the packet numbers are random could be
used pro-actively to simplify hashing.

While the above has some statistical uncertainties, and they do require a
bit more data and time, they also possibly look at longer sequences and
thereby give an overall better quality of understanding than just looking
for out of sequence numbers. After developing good hashes that somehow
encode ordering relations, a neural network might be trained to identify
abnormal traffic patterns efficiently.

Mikkel

On 4 February 2018 at 20.55.59, Praveen Balasubramanian (pravb@microsoft.co=
m)
wrote:

Ok this answers my question that this is targeted at the migration
scenario.

If jumps are random and cryptographically seeded I don't understand why
there would be a pattern. We already use this type of mechanism for TCP ISN
and IP header Identification fields. The adversary could also use the side
channel timing attack of just observing the sending and receiving
application rate for correlation between the two paths (after factoring in
the RTT).

If independent sequence space (with randomization) can work just as well
I'd rather pick that over encryption for efficiency reasons. It should
solve ossification but I am not a privacy expert.

-----Original Message-----
From: Christian Huitema [mailto:huitema@huitema.net]
Sent: Sunday, February 4, 2018 11:46 AM
To: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
Cc: quic@ietf.org; Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>; Eric Rescorla <
ekr@rtfm.com>; Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>; Lubashev, Igor <
ilubashe@akamai.com>; Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>; Fossati, Thomas (Nokia -
GB/Cambridge, UK) <thomas.fossati@nokia.com>; Roni Even (A) <
roni.even@huawei.com>; Mirja K=C3=BChlewind <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.c=
h>;
Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>; Eggert, Lars <lars@netapp.com>; Martin
Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>; Piotr Galecki <
piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.com>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption



> On Feb 4, 2018, at 9:31 AM, Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
wrote:
>
> From the charter "This work will ensure that QUIC has security and
privacy properties that are at least as good as a stack composed of TLS 1.3
using TCP (or MPTCP when using multipath)."
>
> Is the discussion mainly focused on connection migration which is not
present in TCP? There seem to be bigger privacy problems due to DNS and TLS
SNI extension so in real deployments will packet number encryption add
value other than preventing ossification?

Yes, we need to fix the SNI issue. Clear text ALPN too. But should not
prevent us from fixing everything else.

>
> Is a cryptographically secure random initial packet number and random
(forward) jumps in packet number not good enough to prevent ossification?
The missing packet number range due to the forward jump could be
communicated in the encrypted payload so the receiver knows they are not
missing.
>

No, random jumps are not enough. It turns out that during migration packets
are often sent simultaneously on both paths. The pattern of increases and
holes is enough to correlate the two paths.

In practice there are two possible designs: packet number encryption as
currently documented; or, independent sequence number space and encryption
context for each path. Both work. The one we have is significantly easier
to implement. The other exposes the sequence number, which may ease network
monitoring but also could drive ossification.

Now is a good time to have this discussion.

-- Christian Huitema

--001a114a9d82326d05056468d631
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">One aspect of random=
ised gaps that might be overlooked is that packet numbers are only sent wit=
h the lower 4 bytes at most. This means that a randomised gap on a new conn=
ection ID is not different from a new packet number that starts at a random=
 offset because you cannot tell if it rolled over without knowing more abou=
t the connection.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:He=
lvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:a=
uto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,=
Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">How=
ever, if migration does not look like a new connection, at least a 0-RTT, i=
t is all a mood point because the sudden appearance of data on a new connec=
tion ID combined with the silence of another ID, and probably also characte=
ristic changes in packet delays and sizes during migration, along with GeoI=
P, are all fingerprinting the connection.</div> <div><br></div><div>On moni=
toring packets inside a network, there are probably many new unexplored pos=
sibilities to track reordering of encrypted packet numbers. For example, on=
e could create a bloom filter to record the packet numbers seen in a block =
of N packets, for example syncing wherever the lower packet number bits are=
 all 0, or something. Packet loss would show up as fewer matches when compa=
ring filters at different nodes. Or the lower 8 bits of each packet number =
in a block could be concatenated to a string and compared with levenshtein =
edit distance - even just the lower two bits of each packet might suffice. =
The fact the packet numbers are random could be used pro-actively to simpli=
fy hashing.</div><div><br></div><div>While the above has some statistical u=
ncertainties, and they do require a bit more data and time, they also possi=
bly look at longer sequences and thereby give an overall better quality of =
understanding than just looking for out of sequence numbers. After developi=
ng good hashes that somehow encode ordering relations, a neural network mig=
ht be trained to identify abnormal traffic patterns efficiently.</div><div>=
<br></div><div>Mikkel</div> <br><p class=3D"airmail_on">On 4 February 2018 =
at 20.55.59, Praveen Balasubramanian (<a href=3D"mailto:pravb@microsoft.com=
">pravb@microsoft.com</a>) wrote:</p> <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"cl=
ean_bq"><span><div><div></div><div>Ok this answers my question that this is=
 targeted at the migration scenario. =20
<br>
<br>If jumps are random and cryptographically seeded I don&#39;t understand=
 why there would be a pattern. We already use this type of mechanism for TC=
P ISN and IP header Identification fields. The adversary could also use the=
 side channel timing attack of just observing the sending and receiving app=
lication rate for correlation between the two paths (after factoring in the=
 RTT). =20
<br>
<br>If independent sequence space (with randomization) can work just as wel=
l I&#39;d rather pick that over encryption for efficiency reasons. It shoul=
d solve ossification but I am not a privacy expert.
<br>
<br>-----Original Message-----
<br>From: Christian Huitema [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:huitema@huitema.net">=
huitema@huitema.net</a>] =20
<br>Sent: Sunday, February 4, 2018 11:46 AM
<br>To: Praveen Balasubramanian &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pravb@microsoft.com">=
pravb@microsoft.com</a>&gt;
<br>Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@ietf.org</a>; Gorry Fairhust =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk">gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk</a>&gt;; E=
ric Rescorla &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;; Bria=
n Trammell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@trammell.ch">ietf@trammell.ch</a>&gt;=
; Lubashev, Igor &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ilubashe@akamai.com">ilubashe@akamai=
.com</a>&gt;; Roberto Peon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.com">fenix@fb.com=
</a>&gt;; Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
thomas.fossati@nokia.com">thomas.fossati@nokia.com</a>&gt;; Roni Even (A) &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:roni.even@huawei.com">roni.even@huawei.com</a>&gt;; Mi=
rja K=C3=BChlewind &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch">m=
irja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch</a>&gt;; Jana Iyengar &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
jri@google.com">jri@google.com</a>&gt;; Eggert, Lars &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
lars@netapp.com">lars@netapp.com</a>&gt;; Martin Thomson &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:martin.thomson@gmail.com">martin.thomson@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Piotr Galec=
ki &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.com">piotr_galecki@=
affirmednetworks.com</a>&gt;
<br>Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>&gt; On Feb 4, 2018, at 9:31 AM, Praveen Balasubramanian &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:pravb@microsoft.com">pravb@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; From the charter &quot;This work will ensure that QUIC has securit=
y and privacy properties that are at least as good as a stack composed of T=
LS 1.3  using TCP (or MPTCP when using multipath).&quot;
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; Is the discussion mainly focused on connection migration which is =
not present in TCP? There seem to be bigger privacy problems due to DNS and=
 TLS SNI extension so in real deployments will packet number encryption add=
 value other than preventing ossification? =20
<br>
<br>Yes, we need to fix the SNI issue. Clear text ALPN too. But should not =
prevent us from fixing everything else.
<br>
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; Is a cryptographically secure random initial packet number and ran=
dom (forward) jumps in packet number not good enough to prevent ossificatio=
n? The missing packet number range due to the forward jump could be communi=
cated in the encrypted payload so the receiver knows they are not missing.
<br>&gt; =20
<br>
<br>No, random jumps are not enough. It turns out that during migration pac=
kets are often sent simultaneously on both paths. The pattern of increases =
and holes is enough to correlate the two paths.
<br>
<br>In practice there are two possible designs: packet number encryption as=
 currently documented; or, independent sequence number space and encryption=
 context for each path. Both work. The one we have is significantly easier =
to implement. The other exposes the sequence number, which may ease network=
 monitoring but also could drive ossification.
<br>
<br>Now is a good time to have this discussion.
<br>
<br>-- Christian Huitema =20
<br>
<br></div></div></span></blockquote></body></html>

--001a114a9d82326d05056468d631--


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From: "Brian Trammell (IETF)" <ietf@trammell.ch>
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Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2018 21:52:01 +0100
In-Reply-To: <888DE2C2-4EDA-445A-B08F-76DD016C9CA0@huitema.net>
Cc: "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>, "Roni Even (A)" <roni.even@huawei.com>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, Piotr Galecki <piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.com>, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>, "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK)" <thomas.fossati@nokia.com>, Gorry Fairhurst <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>, =?utf-8?Q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
To: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
References: <CABkgnnVyo3MmWtVULiV=FJTnR528qfY8-OmKGWAs0bCvri-a_g@mail.gmail.com> <1F7FB3B8-A94C-4354-9944-FB09FB8DB68B@trammell.ch> <CABcZeBMbwdwyC9TxxHBLYaZKfNB-FG2wCGjqUZ_mNR-A1R47FA@mail.gmail.com> <9096e5ec-581e-875a-b1dd-bff0b05206fd@huitema.net> <CABkgnnWRQSAufwPss+qf=xAzCwRYeNNH8XLPm3yFaHxOb+ba4g@mail.gmail.com> <BF80500A-6277-45DC-8525-9C3FE138B76D@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <5A7191E0.6010003@erg.abdn.ac.uk> <5214AD93-8376-4B25-922F-AF5551CC2E95@netapp.com> <F990E064-E6F8-41A3-B791-F776C9955E15@nokia.com> <CAGD1bZab0GaZFsHwC+nw3AxxC4VusxMJ6oDanzk3dSDdWKAXdw@mail.gmail.com> <2C515BE8694C6F4B9B6A578BCAC32E2F83BA1443@MBX021-W3-CA-2.exch021.domain.local> <BY2PR15MB07757473DB9788558B902EB5CDF80@BY2PR15MB0775.namprd15.prod.outlook.com> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD861B7F@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> <e529144067624fcba636fc8c24ee3ff4@usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com> <888DE2C2-4EDA-445A-B08F-76DD016C9CA0@huitema.net>
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> On 4 Feb 2018, at 18:40, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net> =
wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Feb 4, 2018, at 7:18 AM, Lubashev, Igor <ilubashe@akamai.com> =
wrote:...
>>=20
>> Having networks wrap and unwrap packets at their boundaries is a =
possibility, though it has real costs and downsides.  First, while =
networks could setup such wrapping for UDP port 443 traffic, what about =
QUIC traffic using other ports?  Would networks need to wrap all UDP =
traffic?  Second, this does reduce MTU for end users, reducing available =
bandwidth.  Third, this would allow networks to only answer questions =
like: =E2=80=9CIs my network the culprit of the problem?=E2=80=9D =
instead of =E2=80=9CIs the problem in my network, upstream from me, or =
downstream from me?=E2=80=9D.
>=20
> This is exactly why I believe the proper place for things like spin =
bits or short sequence numbers is in the IP header. That would be a =
really neat use of the IPv6 flow ID.

Let me say this again, more directly: the IPv6 flow ID will absolutely =
not work for this. It's used, when it's used, for ECMP entropy and other =
end-of-the-path routing things. This is equivalent to the problems with =
ECN on older hardware / configurations using TOS for ECMP entropy: =
reassign these

Measurement bits aren't flow identifiers. Overloading the latter to =
become the former because we don't want to deal with the protocol stack =
we've inherited is not a serious option.

If you've got data to the contrary, please share it. But saying this =
will work is an exceptional claim, and requires exceptional evidence.

>>=20
>> Would it be considered outrageous to suggest that packet number =
encryption be an option negotiated during connection handshake?  An end =
user client in =E2=80=9CPrivacy-Enhanced=E2=80=9D mode would negotiate =
this, while end users not particularly concerned with connection =
migration linkability issues would leave this off?
>=20
> Negotiate privacy off in the name of network performance? Very =
slippery slope! For example, the connections that do require privacy =
would stick out.
>=20
> -- Christian Huitema


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Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2018 21:53:28 +0100
In-Reply-To: <66B2703B-1BE8-4065-A182-22A793B5998D@trammell.ch>
Cc: Gorry Fairhurst <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, =?utf-8?Q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK)" <thomas.fossati@nokia.com>, "Roni Even (A)" <roni.even@huawei.com>, "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>, Piotr Galecki <piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
To: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
References: <CABkgnnVyo3MmWtVULiV=FJTnR528qfY8-OmKGWAs0bCvri-a_g@mail.gmail.com> <1F7FB3B8-A94C-4354-9944-FB09FB8DB68B@trammell.ch> <CABcZeBMbwdwyC9TxxHBLYaZKfNB-FG2wCGjqUZ_mNR-A1R47FA@mail.gmail.com> <9096e5ec-581e-875a-b1dd-bff0b05206fd@huitema.net> <CABkgnnWRQSAufwPss+qf=xAzCwRYeNNH8XLPm3yFaHxOb+ba4g@mail.gmail.com> <BF80500A-6277-45DC-8525-9C3FE138B76D@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <5A7191E0.6010003@erg.abdn.ac.uk> <5214AD93-8376-4B25-922F-AF5551CC2E95@netapp.com> <F990E064-E6F8-41A3-B791-F776C9955E15@nokia.com> <CAGD1bZab0GaZFsHwC+nw3AxxC4VusxMJ6oDanzk3dSDdWKAXdw@mail.gmail.com> <2C515BE8694C6F4B9B6A578BCAC32E2F83BA1443@MBX021-W3-CA-2.exch021.domain.local> <BY2PR15MB07757473DB9788558B902EB5CDF80@BY2PR15MB0775.namprd15.prod.outlook.com> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD861B7F@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> <e529144067624fcba636fc8c24ee3ff4@usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com> <888DE2C2-4EDA-445A-B08F-76DD016C9CA0@huitema.net> <66B2703B-1BE8-4065-A182-22A793B5998D@trammell.ch>
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> On 4 Feb 2018, at 21:52, Brian Trammell (IETF) <ietf@trammell.ch> =
wrote:
>=20
>>=20
>> On 4 Feb 2018, at 18:40, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net> =
wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> On Feb 4, 2018, at 7:18 AM, Lubashev, Igor <ilubashe@akamai.com> =
wrote:...
>>>=20
>>> Having networks wrap and unwrap packets at their boundaries is a =
possibility, though it has real costs and downsides. First, while =
networks could setup such wrapping for UDP port 443 traffic, what about =
QUIC traffic using other ports?  Would networks need to wrap all UDP =
traffic?  Second, this does reduce MTU for end users, reducing available =
bandwidth.  Third, this would allow networks to only answer questions =
like: =E2=80=9CIs my network the culprit of the problem?=E2=80=9D =
instead of =E2=80=9CIs the problem in my network, upstream from me, or =
downstream from me?=E2=80=9D.
>>=20
>> This is exactly why I believe the proper place for things like spin =
bits or short sequence numbers is in the IP header. That would be a =
really neat use of the IPv6 flow ID.
>=20
> Let me say this again, more directly: the IPv6 flow ID will absolutely =
not work for this. It's used, when it's used, for ECMP entropy and other =
end-of-the-path routing things. This is equivalent to the problems with =
ECN on older hardware / configurations using TOS for ECMP entropy: =
reassign these

... and things will break in unexpected and hard to debug ways.

>=20
> Measurement bits aren't flow identifiers. Overloading the latter to =
become the former because we don't want to deal with the protocol stack =
we've inherited is not a serious option.
>=20
> If you've got data to the contrary, please share it. But saying this =
will work is an exceptional claim, and requires exceptional evidence.
>=20
>>>=20
>>> Would it be considered outrageous to suggest that packet number =
encryption be an option negotiated during connection handshake?  An end =
user client in =E2=80=9CPrivacy-Enhanced=E2=80=9D mode would negotiate =
this, while end users not particularly concerned with connection =
migration linkability issues would leave this off?
>>=20
>> Negotiate privacy off in the name of network performance? Very =
slippery slope! For example, the connections that do require privacy =
would stick out.
>>=20
>> -- Christian Huitema


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From: "Brian Trammell (IETF)" <ietf@trammell.ch>
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Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2018 22:31:17 +0100
In-Reply-To: <CAGD1bZab0GaZFsHwC+nw3AxxC4VusxMJ6oDanzk3dSDdWKAXdw@mail.gmail.com>
Cc: "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK)" <thomas.fossati@nokia.com>, Gorry Fairhurst <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, =?utf-8?Q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
To: Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>
References: <CABkgnnVyo3MmWtVULiV=FJTnR528qfY8-OmKGWAs0bCvri-a_g@mail.gmail.com> <1F7FB3B8-A94C-4354-9944-FB09FB8DB68B@trammell.ch> <CABcZeBMbwdwyC9TxxHBLYaZKfNB-FG2wCGjqUZ_mNR-A1R47FA@mail.gmail.com> <9096e5ec-581e-875a-b1dd-bff0b05206fd@huitema.net> <CABkgnnWRQSAufwPss+qf=xAzCwRYeNNH8XLPm3yFaHxOb+ba4g@mail.gmail.com> <BF80500A-6277-45DC-8525-9C3FE138B76D@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <5A7191E0.6010003@erg.abdn.ac.uk> <5214AD93-8376-4B25-922F-AF5551CC2E95@netapp.com> <F990E064-E6F8-41A3-B791-F776C9955E15@nokia.com> <CAGD1bZab0GaZFsHwC+nw3AxxC4VusxMJ6oDanzk3dSDdWKAXdw@mail.gmail.com>
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hi Jana,

> On 3 Feb 2018, at 03:30, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com> wrote:
>=20
> A few points as I catch up on this thread.
>=20
> First, I'll remind folks that QUIC is an encrypted transport. I say =
this because the cost of this operation is trivial in the context of =
encrypting every packet. The cost is borne at the servers and not at =
middleboxes, so the additional crypto cost is basically trivial.

After having worked my way through the PR again (and essentially =
rewriting it from the receiver's point of view, which I believe would be =
useful text to have in the final document, should we end up doing this), =
I buy this.

> Second, this simplifies and increases robustness of implementation. =
Avoiding random PN jumps, as Kazuho points out, makes special-casing of =
code unnecessary. Special code that is exercised occasionally is a =
strong bug attractor, and I would strongly argue for as few of those as =
possible in implementation.

Agree completely. Packet number jumps are a bad idea, and there seems to =
be a (not explicitly examined) consensus that attempting to make =
linkability difficult is worth the effort.

> Third, yes, ossification is a real concern. A simple example: using =
increasing packet numbers as a signature for detecting QUIC. Even if you =
argue against this example, there are innovative ways in which =
ossification will happen. This is based on a true story: We had no idea =
how GQUIC's flags field could get ossified, the value that was being =
used commonly became used as a signature for QUIC traffic (see Section =
7.5 in the SIGCOMM QUIC paper).

There's an overgeneralization of experience from ossification of single =
static fields (as in the TLS greasing and GUIC flags cases) to functions =
over the time series of these fields which has not yet been shown to be =
valid IMO in the case of integrity-protected wire images -- will expand =
on this in my next message, replying to Roberto.

> There's a win here in terms of implementation complexity and several =
implementers have said so.

Compared to packet number jumps, absolutely. Compared to the state two =
revs of the draft ago, it's a *little* more complex but at least it =
doesn't add completely new operations at the sender or the receiver.

> There's a win in terms of ossification and our experience says so.

That experience is IMO overgeneralized.

> There's a potential loss of manageability, in being able to detect =
reordering.

Well, upstream loss and upstream reordering.

As Christian suggested at the start of this thread, if we simultaneously =
add back a signal that would allow on-path loss and reordering =
detection, that would make this a usable-information-content-neutral =
change to the wire image, and everyone could leave the table happy. The =
only problem with this is that the most obvious place to put this signal =
-- the four bits we get back from the short header type field (assuming =
we add the spin bit) aren't really enough to track the loss and =
reordering patterns we care about with a naive counter.

There are lots of other options in this space (e.g. decide we care about =
latency more than reordering, and that we don't care about loss at all, =
and use a two-bit spin to protect the latency signal from reordering, =
and so on), but that seems like a third thread we should start.

Cheers,

Brian

> This is the trade-off, and I am still in favor of encrypting packet =
numbers.
>=20
> On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 7:32 AM, Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, =
UK) <thomas.fossati@nokia.com> wrote:
> On 31/01/2018, 10:06, "QUIC on behalf of Eggert, Lars" =
<quic-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of lars@netapp.com> wrote:
> > On 2018-1-31, at 10:52, Gorry Fairhurst <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk> =
wrote:
> > > +1 - Simply: This *is* complicated and seems to add little.
> >
> > So as an implementor (chair hat off), this adds very little to the
> > overall complexity of the protocol.
>=20
> This doesn't sound great.  It's a bit like saying that adding the =
Higgs
> mechanism to the standard model's lagrangian doesn't make it much more
> complicate :-)  (*)
>=20
> More seriously though, I'd like to point out that it is not just about
> implementation complexity, it's also the energy cost per packet that =
is
> quite crucial.  I haven't done the math but ISTM that bringing in
> another batch of non-optional crypto computation on a per packet basis
> is not going to move the needle in the right direction for stacks that
> run on low power (IoT).
>=20
> This is not a catastrophe - we have CoAP and a (D)TLS profile - but
> neither it's ideal, since cutting off the small things from the wider
> ecosystem creates an artificial gap which then will need a middlebox =
to
> bridge.  (Sure, we have specified the behaviour of a similar box
> already, but it'd be really better if the extra translation logic =
could
> be avoided in the first place.)
>=20
> I guess what I'm saying is that PN encryption being a core mechanism
> that can't be negotiated at handshake time reduces our ability to =
later
> profile QUIC for the IoT, which would be a bit unlucky.
>=20
> So the question is: would it be possible to make this property a
> configurable knob instead?
>=20
> (*) =
https://www.symmetrymagazine.org/article/the-deconstructed-standard-model-=
equation
>=20
>=20


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Subject: Reducing ossification through protocol design (was Re: Packet number encryption)
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2018 22:31:26 +0100
In-Reply-To: <BY2PR15MB07757473DB9788558B902EB5CDF80@BY2PR15MB0775.namprd15.prod.outlook.com>
Cc: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
To: Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>
References: <CABkgnnVyo3MmWtVULiV=FJTnR528qfY8-OmKGWAs0bCvri-a_g@mail.gmail.com> <1F7FB3B8-A94C-4354-9944-FB09FB8DB68B@trammell.ch> <CABcZeBMbwdwyC9TxxHBLYaZKfNB-FG2wCGjqUZ_mNR-A1R47FA@mail.gmail.com> <9096e5ec-581e-875a-b1dd-bff0b05206fd@huitema.net> <CABkgnnWRQSAufwPss+qf=xAzCwRYeNNH8XLPm3yFaHxOb+ba4g@mail.gmail.com> <BF80500A-6277-45DC-8525-9C3FE138B76D@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <5A7191E0.6010003@erg.abdn.ac.uk> <5214AD93-8376-4B25-922F-AF5551CC2E95@netapp.com> <F990E064-E6F8-41A3-B791-F776C9955E15@nokia.com> <CAGD1bZab0GaZFsHwC+nw3AxxC4VusxMJ6oDanzk3dSDdWKAXdw@mail.gmail.com> <2C515BE8694C6F4B9B6A578BCAC32E2F83BA1443@MBX021-W3-CA-2.exch021.domain.local> <BY2PR15MB07757473DB9788558B902EB5CDF80@BY2PR15MB0775.namprd15.prod.outlook.com>
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hi Roberto, all,

(trimming CC, forking thread, since this *really* is separate from the =
question of packet number encryption.)

> On 3 Feb 2018, at 19:37, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com> wrote:
>=20
> Ossification:
> In the past tcp middleboxes expected in-order, monotonically =
increasing offsets and tried to fix reordering before forwarding. This =
middlebox behavior, predicated on observable flows, prevented deployment =
of things which would have made tcp more efficient.
>=20
>  This is the kind of non-theoretical ossification that drove the =
creation of QUIC in the first place.

This becomes more theoretical when you apply observations about TCP to =
QUIC:

(1) Sequence numbering in TCP is far more broken than packet numbering =
(encrypted or not) ever could be, simply because it's not end-to-end =
integrity protected. The first deployed sequence number meddling boxes, =
IIRC, were designed to randomize ISNs (i.e., rewrite them), since stacks =
that did so were slow to deploy. PN rewriting is not only useless in =
QUIC, it'll break the connection.

(2) Many TCP stacks actually had (and some have) crap performance under =
certain reordering patterns, such that the deployment of a middlebox =
that did "fix" reordered packets would have had measurable benefits when =
tested against the stacks prevalent on the networks on which they were =
deployed at the time they were deployed. A QUIC PN-reordering middlebox =
would not show any such benefit, and would be correspondingly difficult =
to sell.

(3) The time to "path interference decay" for the TCP sequence number =
was years. Yes, things move more quickly now (indeed, as evidenced by =
experience with GUIC), but unless we intend not to deploy QUIC version 2 =
rapidly on the heels of QUIC version 1, I would submit that there's =
still time to revise everything not in the invariants. (And, indeed, if =
we do *not* intend to deploy QUIC version 2 rapidly on the heels of QUIC =
version 1, i.e., not until the "path interference decay" time, then this =
entire exercise is academic and we can all go home, because the version =
negotiation mechanism will ossify, greasing or not.)

I think we need to take a step back and take a more systematic view =
toward ossification prevention.

Greasing, in the TLS sense, refers to not allowing extensibility =
codepoints to have a single value or set of values that can be used for =
traffic classification and/or bad traffic rejection by a naive device on =
the path. This is useful when you're trying to keep parts of the =
codepoint space available for future use, but the design of QUIC is such =
that the set of codepoints *in the wire image* is completely determined =
by the negotiated version; i.e., adding a new packet type to the QUIC =
long header would require a new version. Therefore, protecting the =
version negotiation mechanism itself is necessary and sufficient to =
prevent the wire image from ossifying.

This points the way to an alternate approach which will free us from =
having to have the ossification discussion about every single bit in the =
Version 1 header. Early and meaningful exercise of the version =
negotiation mechanism, with at least two versions whose wire images have =
*only* our intended invariants in common, is far superior to greasing =
the version codepoints as a method to protect the version negotiation =
mechanism. Greasing is a way to "fake" agility when you don't have any =
real agility yet -- but we're designing a protocol with real agility, =
with a version negotiation mechanism based at least in its core =
operation on GUIC's mechanism -- i.e., on one which we know at least one =
deployer of the protocol has used successfully multiple times.

Greasing is still useful for fields in the invariants that have static =
values for codepoints we might want to use in the future -- but the =
greasing space should cover the whole codepoint space in these cases, =
since post VN we know which values are grease.

(The PN encryption question is separate. The fundamental question here =
is "should the path see the PN?"... before Melbourne, the answer was "it =
doesn't matter because we haven't figured out a scalable way to do =
that". Now the answer is "probably not the whole PN, but the bottom N =
bits seem quite useful for maintaining TCP-equivalent measurability for =
the protocol, with a linear linkability risk / measurement utility =
tradeoff depending on N." Those N bits ossify only if Version 1 is the =
only QUIC version for the foreseeable future, or if we put them at the =
same observable offset in the Version 2 header.)

Cheers,

Brian


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From: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
To: "Brian Trammell (IETF)" <ietf@trammell.ch>, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>
CC: Gorry Fairhurst <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK)" <thomas.fossati@nokia.com>, =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mirja_K=FChlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>, huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: Packet number encryption
Thread-Topic: Packet number encryption
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There seems to be a 1 to 1.25% overhead due to the additional encryption/de=
cryption operation based on a quick microbenchmark experiment. This number =
will vary for each implementation / system config but seems to be non-negli=
gible. Let's weigh this against the implementation complexities of dealing =
with packet number jumps.=20

Thanks

-----Original Message-----
From: QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian Trammell (IETF=
)
Sent: Sunday, February 4, 2018 1:31 PM
To: Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>
Cc: Gorry Fairhurst <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>; Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>; F=
ossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK) <thomas.fossati@nokia.com>; Mirja=
 K=FChlewind <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>; Eggert, Lars <lars@netapp.c=
om>; huitema <huitema@huitema.net>; QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>; Martin Thomson=
 <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption

hi Jana,

> On 3 Feb 2018, at 03:30, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com> wrote:
>=20
> A few points as I catch up on this thread.
>=20
> First, I'll remind folks that QUIC is an encrypted transport. I say this =
because the cost of this operation is trivial in the context of encrypting =
every packet. The cost is borne at the servers and not at middleboxes, so t=
he additional crypto cost is basically trivial.

After having worked my way through the PR again (and essentially rewriting =
it from the receiver's point of view, which I believe would be useful text =
to have in the final document, should we end up doing this), I buy this.

> Second, this simplifies and increases robustness of implementation. Avoid=
ing random PN jumps, as Kazuho points out, makes special-casing of code unn=
ecessary. Special code that is exercised occasionally is a strong bug attra=
ctor, and I would strongly argue for as few of those as possible in impleme=
ntation.

Agree completely. Packet number jumps are a bad idea, and there seems to be=
 a (not explicitly examined) consensus that attempting to make linkability =
difficult is worth the effort.

> Third, yes, ossification is a real concern. A simple example: using incre=
asing packet numbers as a signature for detecting QUIC. Even if you argue a=
gainst this example, there are innovative ways in which ossification will h=
appen. This is based on a true story: We had no idea how GQUIC's flags fiel=
d could get ossified, the value that was being used commonly became used as=
 a signature for QUIC traffic (see Section 7.5 in the SIGCOMM QUIC paper).

There's an overgeneralization of experience from ossification of single sta=
tic fields (as in the TLS greasing and GUIC flags cases) to functions over =
the time series of these fields which has not yet been shown to be valid IM=
O in the case of integrity-protected wire images -- will expand on this in =
my next message, replying to Roberto.

> There's a win here in terms of implementation complexity and several impl=
ementers have said so.

Compared to packet number jumps, absolutely. Compared to the state two revs=
 of the draft ago, it's a *little* more complex but at least it doesn't add=
 completely new operations at the sender or the receiver.

> There's a win in terms of ossification and our experience says so.

That experience is IMO overgeneralized.

> There's a potential loss of manageability, in being able to detect reorde=
ring.

Well, upstream loss and upstream reordering.

As Christian suggested at the start of this thread, if we simultaneously ad=
d back a signal that would allow on-path loss and reordering detection, tha=
t would make this a usable-information-content-neutral change to the wire i=
mage, and everyone could leave the table happy. The only problem with this =
is that the most obvious place to put this signal -- the four bits we get b=
ack from the short header type field (assuming we add the spin bit) aren't =
really enough to track the loss and reordering patterns we care about with =
a naive counter.

There are lots of other options in this space (e.g. decide we care about la=
tency more than reordering, and that we don't care about loss at all, and u=
se a two-bit spin to protect the latency signal from reordering, and so on)=
, but that seems like a third thread we should start.

Cheers,

Brian

> This is the trade-off, and I am still in favor of encrypting packet numbe=
rs.
>=20
> On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 7:32 AM, Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK=
) <thomas.fossati@nokia.com> wrote:
> On 31/01/2018, 10:06, "QUIC on behalf of Eggert, Lars" <quic-bounces@ietf=
.org on behalf of lars@netapp.com> wrote:
> > On 2018-1-31, at 10:52, Gorry Fairhurst <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk> wrote:
> > > +1 - Simply: This *is* complicated and seems to add little.
> >
> > So as an implementor (chair hat off), this adds very little to the=20
> > overall complexity of the protocol.
>=20
> This doesn't sound great.  It's a bit like saying that adding the=20
> Higgs mechanism to the standard model's lagrangian doesn't make it=20
> much more complicate :-)  (*)
>=20
> More seriously though, I'd like to point out that it is not just about=20
> implementation complexity, it's also the energy cost per packet that=20
> is quite crucial.  I haven't done the math but ISTM that bringing in=20
> another batch of non-optional crypto computation on a per packet basis=20
> is not going to move the needle in the right direction for stacks that=20
> run on low power (IoT).
>=20
> This is not a catastrophe - we have CoAP and a (D)TLS profile - but=20
> neither it's ideal, since cutting off the small things from the wider=20
> ecosystem creates an artificial gap which then will need a middlebox=20
> to bridge.  (Sure, we have specified the behaviour of a similar box=20
> already, but it'd be really better if the extra translation logic=20
> could be avoided in the first place.)
>=20
> I guess what I'm saying is that PN encryption being a core mechanism=20
> that can't be negotiated at handshake time reduces our ability to=20
> later profile QUIC for the IoT, which would be a bit unlucky.
>=20
> So the question is: would it be possible to make this property a=20
> configurable knob instead?
>=20
> (*)=20
> https://www.symmetrymagazine.org/article/the-deconstructed-standard-mo
> del-equation
>=20
>=20


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From: Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>
To: "Roni Even (A)" <roni.even@huawei.com>, Piotr Galecki <piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.com>, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>, "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK)" <thomas.fossati@nokia.com>
CC: Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, =?Windows-1252?Q?Mirja_K=FChlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>, Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, "Martin Thomson" <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
Thread-Topic: Packet number encryption
Thread-Index: AQHTmW3+HjM5RmHWDkij9J5s6UBSSaOMgUQAgABeoYCAAAgUAIAAd3KAgAA8YgCAACPEAIAAAiYAgAOBloCAALfdgIAACBkAgAEGGB6AANx9AIABGNFf
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 00:37:53 +0000
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A network could carry whatever protocol it wished to, i.e. by wrapping any/=
all packets on ingress to the network, and then un-wrapping when forwarding=
 to another network. This would allow a network to record and track whateve=
r it wanted to without placing constraints on layers which should be above =
it.

If the network placed a sequence number on incoming packets, it could detec=
t reordering across all flows. If it do so on a 5-tuple basis, it could det=
ect reordering/duplication/loss across any 5-tuple.


-=3DR

________________________________
From: Roni Even (A) <roni.even@huawei.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 3, 2018 11:47:06 PM
To: Roberto Peon; Piotr Galecki; Jana Iyengar; Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/=
Cambridge, UK)
Cc: Gorry Fairhust; Eric Rescorla; Mirja K=FChlewind; Eggert, Lars; Brian T=
rammell; Christian Huitema; QUIC WG; Martin Thomson
Subject: RE: Packet number encryption


Hi,

Network monitoring:

Networks may always wrap the packet(s) they have received with whatever dat=
a they wish, and unwrap before forwarding. This can allow any network to un=
derstand ordering,  loss, etc within its boundaries.



RE- so you are saying that we can for example  leverage  RTP and define RTP=
 payload for QUIC that will carry QUIC packets, we will just need to resolv=
e the MTU size.

Roni





From: QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roberto Peon
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2018 8:38 PM
To: Piotr Galecki; Jana Iyengar; Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK)
Cc: Gorry Fairhust; Eric Rescorla; Mirja K=FChlewind; Eggert, Lars; Brian T=
rammell; Christian Huitema; QUIC WG; Martin Thomson
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption



Ossification:

In the past tcp middleboxes expected in-order, monotonically increasing off=
sets and tried to fix reordering before forwarding. This middlebox behavior=
, predicated on observable flows, prevented deployment of things which woul=
d have made tcp more efficient.



 This is the kind of non-theoretical ossification that drove the creation o=
f QUIC in the first place.



Network monitoring:

Networks may always wrap the packet(s) they have received with whatever dat=
a they wish, and unwrap before forwarding. This can allow any network to un=
derstand ordering,  loss, etc within its boundaries.



Debugging:

Debugging of flows can still happen for flows that wish to be debugged-- th=
e QUIC connection's key material(s) can be shared manually and used by the =
debugging tool. This is how one debugs http2, https, etc. already today.



-=3DR







-------- Original message --------

From: Piotr Galecki <piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.com<mailto:piotr_galeck=
i@affirmednetworks.com>>

Date: 2/2/18 7:00 PM (GMT-08:00)

To: Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com<mailto:jri@google.com>>, "Fossati, Thomas =
(Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK)" <thomas.fossati@nokia.com<mailto:thomas.fossati=
@nokia.com>>

Cc: Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk<mailto:gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>>, Eri=
c Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com<mailto:ekr@rtfm.com>>, Christian Huitema <huitema@=
huitema.net<mailto:huitema@huitema.net>>, "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com<m=
ailto:lars@netapp.com>>, Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch<mailto:ietf@tramm=
ell.ch>>, Mirja K=FChlewind <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch<mailto:mirja.k=
uehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org<mailto:quic@ietf.org>>, =
Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com<mailto:martin.thomson@gmail.com>>

Subject: RE: Packet number encryption



What is the group=92s proposal for allowing network monitoring tools to det=
ect packet retransmission or packet reordering ?

These metrics are pretty straightforward to measure for TCP flows.

Tools like Wireshark can analyze packets and spot issues.

How can the network tools perform this kind of measurements for QUIC flows =
if PN field is encrypted?





From: QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jana Iyengar
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2018 9:31 PM
To: Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK) <thomas.fossati@nokia.com<ma=
ilto:thomas.fossati@nokia.com>>
Cc: Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk<mailto:gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>>; Eri=
c Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com<mailto:ekr@rtfm.com>>; Mirja K=FChlewind <mirja.ku=
ehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch<mailto:mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>>; Christian=
 Huitema <huitema@huitema.net<mailto:huitema@huitema.net>>; Brian Trammell =
<ietf@trammell.ch<mailto:ietf@trammell.ch>>; Eggert, Lars <lars@netapp.com<=
mailto:lars@netapp.com>>; QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org<mailto:quic@ietf.org>>; Ma=
rtin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com<mailto:martin.thomson@gmail.com>>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption



A few points as I catch up on this thread.



First, I'll remind folks that QUIC is an encrypted transport. I say this be=
cause the cost of this operation is trivial in the context of encrypting ev=
ery packet. The cost is borne at the servers and not at middleboxes, so the=
 additional crypto cost is basically trivial.



Second, this simplifies and increases robustness of implementation. Avoidin=
g random PN jumps, as Kazuho points out, makes special-casing of code unnec=
essary. Special code that is exercised occasionally is a strong bug attract=
or, and I would strongly argue for as few of those as possible in implement=
ation.



Third, yes, ossification is a real concern. A simple example: using increas=
ing packet numbers as a signature for detecting QUIC. Even if you argue aga=
inst this example, there are innovative ways in which ossification will hap=
pen. This is based on a true story: We had no idea how GQUIC's flags field =
could get ossified, the value that was being used commonly became used as a=
 signature for QUIC traffic (see Section 7.5 in the SIGCOMM QUIC paper<http=
s://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__static.googleusercontent=
.com_media_research.google.com_en_pubs_archive_46403.pdf&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3D5VD=
0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=3DC0sUo-LFNBaYfyoaCsf6TA&m=3DSY87I4v_IqTCGOds-j5NCOwk=
Q0cJcYHGyKdXmMIVn6I&s=3DU9o6dI-dwzKwvXHvvmv7WtVm84puvxhaP0cN2of3VvA&e=3D>).



There's a win here in terms of implementation complexity and several implem=
enters have said so. There's a win in terms of ossification and our experie=
nce says so. There's a potential loss of manageability, in being able to de=
tect reordering. This is the trade-off, and I am still in favor of encrypti=
ng packet numbers.



On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 7:32 AM, Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK) =
<thomas.fossati@nokia.com<mailto:thomas.fossati@nokia.com>> wrote:

On 31/01/2018, 10:06, "QUIC on behalf of Eggert, Lars" <quic-bounces@ietf.o=
rg<mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of lars@netapp.com<mailto:lars@n=
etapp.com>> wrote:
> On 2018-1-31, at 10:52, Gorry Fairhurst <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk<mailto:gorr=
y@erg.abdn.ac.uk>> wrote:
> > +1 - Simply: This *is* complicated and seems to add little.
>
> So as an implementor (chair hat off), this adds very little to the
> overall complexity of the protocol.

This doesn't sound great.  It's a bit like saying that adding the Higgs
mechanism to the standard model's lagrangian doesn't make it much more
complicate :-)  (*)

More seriously though, I'd like to point out that it is not just about
implementation complexity, it's also the energy cost per packet that is
quite crucial.  I haven't done the math but ISTM that bringing in
another batch of non-optional crypto computation on a per packet basis
is not going to move the needle in the right direction for stacks that
run on low power (IoT).

This is not a catastrophe - we have CoAP and a (D)TLS profile - but
neither it's ideal, since cutting off the small things from the wider
ecosystem creates an artificial gap which then will need a middlebox to
bridge.  (Sure, we have specified the behaviour of a similar box
already, but it'd be really better if the extra translation logic could
be avoided in the first place.)

I guess what I'm saying is that PN encryption being a core mechanism
that can't be negotiated at handshake time reduces our ability to later
profile QUIC for the IoT, which would be a bit unlucky.

So the question is: would it be possible to make this property a
configurable knob instead?

(*) https://www.symmetrymagazine.org/article/the-deconstructed-standard-mod=
el-equation<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.symm=
etrymagazine.org_article_the-2Ddeconstructed-2Dstandard-2Dmodel-2Dequation&=
d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3D5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=3DC0sUo-LFNBaYfyoaCsf6TA&m=3DSY87I4=
v_IqTCGOds-j5NCOwkQ0cJcYHGyKdXmMIVn6I&s=3DetIO0AUHiJm8zucsWaTgo-XULFisCMoG2=
iDvwC69s9Q&e=3D>



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<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-1=
252">
<style type=3D"text/css" style=3D"display:none;"><!-- P {margin-top:0;margi=
n-bottom:0;} --></style>
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<body dir=3D"ltr">
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<p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">A network could carry whatever pr=
otocol it wished to, i.e. by wrapping any/all packets on ingress to the net=
work,&nbsp;and then&nbsp;un-wrapping when forwarding to another network. Th=
is would allow a network to record and track
 whatever it wanted to without placing constraints on layers which should b=
e above it.&nbsp;</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><br>
If the network placed a sequence number on incoming packets, it could detec=
t reordering across all flows. If it do so on a 5-tuple basis, it could det=
ect reordering/duplication/loss across any 5-tuple.</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><br>
</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">-=3DR</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"></p>
<p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"></p>
</div>
<hr style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%" tabindex=3D"-1">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" st=
yle=3D"font-size:11pt" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> Roni Even (A) &lt;ron=
i.even@huawei.com&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, February 3, 2018 11:47:06 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Roberto Peon; Piotr Galecki; Jana Iyengar; Fossati, Thomas (Noki=
a - GB/Cambridge, UK)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Gorry Fairhust; Eric Rescorla; Mirja K=FChlewind; Eggert, Lars; =
Brian Trammell; Christian Huitema; QUIC WG; Martin Thomson<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Packet number encryption</font>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
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<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">Hi,</span></p>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">Network monitoring:</span></p>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">Networks may always wrap the pack=
et(s) they have received with whatever data they wish, and unwrap before fo=
rwarding. This can allow any network to understand ordering,&nbsp;
 loss, etc within its boundaries.</span></p>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">RE- so you are saying that we can=
 for example &nbsp;leverage &nbsp;RTP and define RTP payload for QUIC that =
will carry QUIC packets, we will just need to resolve the MTU size.</span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">Roni</span></p>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0i=
n 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&q=
uot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:10.0pt; font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> QUIC=
 [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Roberto Peon<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, February 03, 2018 8:38 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Piotr Galecki; Jana Iyengar; Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambrid=
ge, UK)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Gorry Fairhust; Eric Rescorla; Mirja K=FChlewind; Eggert, Lars; =
Brian Trammell; Christian Huitema; QUIC WG; Martin Thomson<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Packet number encryption</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">Ossification:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">In the past tcp middleboxes expec=
ted in-order, monotonically increasing offsets and tried to fix reordering =
before forwarding. This middlebox behavior, predicated on
 observable flows, prevented deployment of things which would have made tcp=
 more efficient.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;This is the kind of non-the=
oretical ossification that drove the creation of QUIC in the first place.</=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">Network monitoring:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">Networks may always wrap the pack=
et(s) they have received with whatever data they wish, and unwrap before fo=
rwarding. This can allow any network to understand ordering,&nbsp;
 loss, etc within its boundaries.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">Debugging:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">Debugging of flows can still happ=
en for flows that wish to be debugged-- the QUIC connection's key material(=
s) can be shared manually and used by the debugging tool.
 This is how one debugs http2, https, etc. already today.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">-=3DR</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">-------- Original message -------=
-</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">From: Piotr Galecki &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.com">piotr_galecki@affirmednetwor=
ks.com</a>&gt;
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">Date: 2/2/18 7:00 PM (GMT-08:00)
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">To: Jana Iyengar &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:jri@google.com">jri@google.com</a>&gt;, &quot;Fossati, Thomas (Nokia =
- GB/Cambridge, UK)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:thomas.fossati@nokia.com">t=
homas.fossati@nokia.com</a>&gt;
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">Cc: Gorry Fairhust &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk">gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk</a>&gt;, Eric Rescorla &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;, Christian Huitema
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:huitema@huitema.net">huitema@huitema.net</a>&gt;, &q=
uot;Eggert, Lars&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lars@netapp.com">lars@netapp.c=
om</a>&gt;, Brian Trammell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@trammell.ch">ietf@tra=
mmell.ch</a>&gt;, Mirja K=FChlewind &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mirja.kuehlewind@=
tik.ee.ethz.ch">mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch</a>&gt;,
 QUIC WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Martin=
 Thomson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.thomson@gmail.com">martin.thomson@gma=
il.com</a>&gt;
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">Subject: RE: Packet number encryp=
tion
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">What is the group=92s proposal for allowing networ=
k monitoring tools to detect packet retransmission or packet reordering ?</=
p>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">These metrics are pretty straightforward to measur=
e for TCP flows.</p>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">Tools like Wireshark can analyze packets and spot =
issues.</p>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">How can the network tools perform this kind of mea=
surements for QUIC flows if PN field is encrypted?</p>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> QUIC [<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bounces@=
ietf.org">mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jana Iyengar<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 02, 2018 9:31 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:thomas.fossati@nokia.com">thomas.fossati@nokia.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Gorry Fairhust &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk">gorry=
@erg.abdn.ac.uk</a>&gt;; Eric Rescorla &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com">=
ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;; Mirja K=FChlewind &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mirja.kuehlew=
ind@tik.ee.ethz.ch">mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch</a>&gt;;
 Christian Huitema &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:huitema@huitema.net">huitema@huite=
ma.net</a>&gt;; Brian Trammell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@trammell.ch">ietf=
@trammell.ch</a>&gt;; Eggert, Lars &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lars@netapp.com">l=
ars@netapp.com</a>&gt;; QUIC WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@i=
etf.org</a>&gt;;
 Martin Thomson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.thomson@gmail.com">martin.thom=
son@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Packet number encryption</p>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">A few points as I catch up on this thread.</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">First, I'll remind folks that QUIC is an encrypted=
 transport. I say this because the cost of this operation is trivial in the=
 context of encrypting every packet. The cost is borne at the servers and n=
ot at middleboxes, so the additional
 crypto cost is basically trivial.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">Second, this simplifies and increases robustness o=
f implementation. Avoiding random PN jumps, as Kazuho points out, makes spe=
cial-casing of code unnecessary. Special code that is exercised occasionall=
y is a strong bug attractor, and I
 would strongly argue for as few of those as possible in implementation.</p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">Third, yes, ossification is a real concern. A simp=
le example: using increasing packet numbers as a signature for detecting QU=
IC. Even if you argue against this example, there are innovative ways in wh=
ich ossification will happen. This
 is based on a true story:&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-famil=
y:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; color:#222222; background:white=
">We had no idea how GQUIC's flags field could get ossified, the value that=
 was being used commonly became used as a signature for QUIC
 traffic (see Section 7.5 in the <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.c=
om/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__static.googleusercontent.com_media_research.google.=
com_en_pubs_archive_46403.pdf&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3D5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw=
&amp;r=3DC0sUo-LFNBaYfyoaCsf6TA&amp;m=3DSY87I4v_IqTCGOds-j5NCOwkQ0cJcYHGyKd=
XmMIVn6I&amp;s=3DU9o6dI-dwzKwvXHvvmv7WtVm84puvxhaP0cN2of3VvA&amp;e=3D">
SIGCOMM QUIC paper</a>).</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">There's a win here in terms of implementation comp=
lexity and several implementers have said so. There's a win in terms of oss=
ification and our experience says so. There's a potential loss of manageabi=
lity, in being able to detect reordering.
 This is the trade-off, and I am still in favor of encrypting packet number=
s.</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 7:32 AM, Fossati, Thomas (N=
okia - GB/Cambridge, UK) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:thomas.fossati@nokia.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">thomas.fossati@nokia.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none; border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt; padding:=
0in 0in 0in 6.0pt; margin-left:4.8pt; margin-top:5.0pt; margin-right:0in; m=
argin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">On 31/01/2018, 10:0=
6, &quot;QUIC on behalf of Eggert, Lars&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bo=
unces@ietf.org">quic-bounces@ietf.org</a> on behalf of
<a href=3D"mailto:lars@netapp.com">lars@netapp.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; On 2018-1-31, at 10:52, Gorry Fairhurst &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gorry@er=
g.abdn.ac.uk">gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; &#43;1 - Simply: This *is* complicated and seems to add little.<b=
r>
&gt;<br>
&gt; So as an implementor (chair hat off), this adds very little to the<br>
&gt; overall complexity of the protocol.<br>
<br>
This doesn't sound great.&nbsp; It's a bit like saying that adding the Higg=
s<br>
mechanism to the standard model's lagrangian doesn't make it much more<br>
complicate :-)&nbsp; (*)<br>
<br>
More seriously though, I'd like to point out that it is not just about<br>
implementation complexity, it's also the energy cost per packet that is<br>
quite crucial.&nbsp; I haven't done the math but ISTM that bringing in<br>
another batch of non-optional crypto computation on a per packet basis<br>
is not going to move the needle in the right direction for stacks that<br>
run on low power (IoT).<br>
<br>
This is not a catastrophe - we have CoAP and a (D)TLS profile - but<br>
neither it's ideal, since cutting off the small things from the wider<br>
ecosystem creates an artificial gap which then will need a middlebox to<br>
bridge.&nbsp; (Sure, we have specified the behaviour of a similar box<br>
already, but it'd be really better if the extra translation logic could<br>
be avoided in the first place.)<br>
<br>
I guess what I'm saying is that PN encryption being a core mechanism<br>
that can't be negotiated at handshake time reduces our ability to later<br>
profile QUIC for the IoT, which would be a bit unlucky.<br>
<br>
So the question is: would it be possible to make this property a<br>
configurable knob instead?<br>
<br>
(*) <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.s=
ymmetrymagazine.org_article_the-2Ddeconstructed-2Dstandard-2Dmodel-2Dequati=
on&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3D5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&amp;r=3DC0sUo-LFNBaYfyoaCs=
f6TA&amp;m=3DSY87I4v_IqTCGOds-j5NCOwkQ0cJcYHGyKdXmMIVn6I&amp;s=3DetIO0AUHiJ=
m8zucsWaTgo-XULFisCMoG2iDvwC69s9Q&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">
https://www.symmetrymagazine.org/article/the-deconstructed-standard-model-e=
quation</a></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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From: Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>
To: "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>, "Roni Even (A)" <roni.even@huawei.com>, Piotr Galecki <piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.com>, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>, "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK)" <thomas.fossati@nokia.com>
CC: Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>, Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>, =?Windows-1252?Q?Mirja_K=FChlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
Thread-Topic: Packet number encryption
Thread-Index: AQHTmW3+HjM5RmHWDkij9J5s6UBSSaOMgUQAgABeoYCAAAgUAIAAd3KAgAA8YgCAACPEAIAAAiYAgAOBloCAALfdgIAACBkAgAEGGB6AANx9AIAAn5KAgAB69NE=
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 00:41:11 +0000
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References: <CABkgnnVyo3MmWtVULiV=FJTnR528qfY8-OmKGWAs0bCvri-a_g@mail.gmail.com> <1F7FB3B8-A94C-4354-9944-FB09FB8DB68B@trammell.ch> <CABcZeBMbwdwyC9TxxHBLYaZKfNB-FG2wCGjqUZ_mNR-A1R47FA@mail.gmail.com> <9096e5ec-581e-875a-b1dd-bff0b05206fd@huitema.net> <CABkgnnWRQSAufwPss+qf=xAzCwRYeNNH8XLPm3yFaHxOb+ba4g@mail.gmail.com> <BF80500A-6277-45DC-8525-9C3FE138B76D@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <5A7191E0.6010003@erg.abdn.ac.uk> <5214AD93-8376-4B25-922F-AF5551CC2E95@netapp.com> <F990E064-E6F8-41A3-B791-F776C9955E15@nokia.com> <CAGD1bZab0GaZFsHwC+nw3AxxC4VusxMJ6oDanzk3dSDdWKAXdw@mail.gmail.com>, <2C515BE8694C6F4B9B6A578BCAC32E2F83BA1443@MBX021-W3-CA-2.exch021.domain.local> <BY2PR15MB07757473DB9788558B902EB5CDF80@BY2PR15MB0775.namprd15.prod.outlook.com> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD861B7F@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com>, <e529144067624fcba636fc8c24ee3ff4@usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com>
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Placing/consuming unnecessary bits into the protocol also may reduce bandwi=
dth, even on LANs/intranets.

Optional security tends to devolve to non-secure.

-=3DR


________________________________
From: Lubashev, Igor <ilubashe@akamai.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 4, 2018 9:18:13 AM
To: Roni Even (A); Roberto Peon; Piotr Galecki; Jana Iyengar; Fossati, Thom=
as (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK)
Cc: Gorry Fairhust; Eric Rescorla; Christian Huitema; Eggert, Lars; Brian T=
rammell; Mirja K=FChlewind; QUIC WG; Martin Thomson
Subject: RE: Packet number encryption


The need to troubleshoot networks (at a minimum, to detect packet loss and =
reordering) is real.  I would assume that every network would need to have =
an ability to do so.  Ability to quickly troubleshoot and fix networks is n=
ot only =93nice=94 for the networks themselves, but it is also very benefic=
ial to QUIC users.



Having networks wrap and unwrap packets at their boundaries is a possibilit=
y, though it has real costs and downsides.  First, while networks could set=
up such wrapping for UDP port 443 traffic, what about QUIC traffic using ot=
her ports?  Would networks need to wrap all UDP traffic?  Second, this does=
 reduce MTU for end users, reducing available bandwidth.  Third, this would=
 allow networks to only answer questions like: =93Is my network the culprit=
 of the problem?=94 instead of =93Is the problem in my network, upstream fr=
om me, or downstream from me?=94.



Would it be considered outrageous to suggest that packet number encryption =
be an option negotiated during connection handshake?  An end user client in=
 =93Privacy-Enhanced=94 mode would negotiate this, while end users not part=
icularly concerned with connection migration linkability issues would leave=
 this off?



- Igor





From: Roni Even (A) [mailto:roni.even@huawei.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2018 2:47 AM
To: Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>; Piotr Galecki <piotr_galecki@affirmednetwo=
rks.com>; Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>; Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambri=
dge, UK) <thomas.fossati@nokia.com>
Cc: Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>; Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>; Ch=
ristian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>; Eggert, Lars <lars@netapp.com>; Bria=
n Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>; Mirja K=FChlewind <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.e=
thz.ch>; QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>; Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: Packet number encryption



Hi,

Network monitoring:

Networks may always wrap the packet(s) they have received with whatever dat=
a they wish, and unwrap before forwarding. This can allow any network to un=
derstand ordering,  loss, etc within its boundaries.



RE- so you are saying that we can for example  leverage  RTP and define RTP=
 payload for QUIC that will carry QUIC packets, we will just need to resolv=
e the MTU size.

Roni





From: QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roberto Peon
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2018 8:38 PM
To: Piotr Galecki; Jana Iyengar; Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK)
Cc: Gorry Fairhust; Eric Rescorla; Mirja K=FChlewind; Eggert, Lars; Brian T=
rammell; Christian Huitema; QUIC WG; Martin Thomson
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption



Ossification:

In the past tcp middleboxes expected in-order, monotonically increasing off=
sets and tried to fix reordering before forwarding. This middlebox behavior=
, predicated on observable flows, prevented deployment of things which woul=
d have made tcp more efficient.



 This is the kind of non-theoretical ossification that drove the creation o=
f QUIC in the first place.



Network monitoring:

Networks may always wrap the packet(s) they have received with whatever dat=
a they wish, and unwrap before forwarding. This can allow any network to un=
derstand ordering,  loss, etc within its boundaries.



Debugging:

Debugging of flows can still happen for flows that wish to be debugged-- th=
e QUIC connection's key material(s) can be shared manually and used by the =
debugging tool. This is how one debugs http2, https, etc. already today.



-=3DR







-------- Original message --------

From: Piotr Galecki <piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.com<mailto:piotr_galeck=
i@affirmednetworks.com>>

Date: 2/2/18 7:00 PM (GMT-08:00)

To: Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com<mailto:jri@google.com>>, "Fossati, Thomas =
(Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK)" <thomas.fossati@nokia.com<mailto:thomas.fossati=
@nokia.com>>

Cc: Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk<mailto:gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>>, Eri=
c Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com<mailto:ekr@rtfm.com>>, Christian Huitema <huitema@=
huitema.net<mailto:huitema@huitema.net>>, "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com<m=
ailto:lars@netapp.com>>, Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch<mailto:ietf@tramm=
ell.ch>>, Mirja K=FChlewind <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch<mailto:mirja.k=
uehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org<mailto:quic@ietf.org>>, =
Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com<mailto:martin.thomson@gmail.com>>

Subject: RE: Packet number encryption



What is the group=92s proposal for allowing network monitoring tools to det=
ect packet retransmission or packet reordering ?

These metrics are pretty straightforward to measure for TCP flows.

Tools like Wireshark can analyze packets and spot issues.

How can the network tools perform this kind of measurements for QUIC flows =
if PN field is encrypted?





From: QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jana Iyengar
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2018 9:31 PM
To: Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK) <thomas.fossati@nokia.com<ma=
ilto:thomas.fossati@nokia.com>>
Cc: Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk<mailto:gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>>; Eri=
c Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com<mailto:ekr@rtfm.com>>; Mirja K=FChlewind <mirja.ku=
ehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch<mailto:mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>>; Christian=
 Huitema <huitema@huitema.net<mailto:huitema@huitema.net>>; Brian Trammell =
<ietf@trammell.ch<mailto:ietf@trammell.ch>>; Eggert, Lars <lars@netapp.com<=
mailto:lars@netapp.com>>; QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org<mailto:quic@ietf.org>>; Ma=
rtin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com<mailto:martin.thomson@gmail.com>>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption



A few points as I catch up on this thread.



First, I'll remind folks that QUIC is an encrypted transport. I say this be=
cause the cost of this operation is trivial in the context of encrypting ev=
ery packet. The cost is borne at the servers and not at middleboxes, so the=
 additional crypto cost is basically trivial.



Second, this simplifies and increases robustness of implementation. Avoidin=
g random PN jumps, as Kazuho points out, makes special-casing of code unnec=
essary. Special code that is exercised occasionally is a strong bug attract=
or, and I would strongly argue for as few of those as possible in implement=
ation.



Third, yes, ossification is a real concern. A simple example: using increas=
ing packet numbers as a signature for detecting QUIC. Even if you argue aga=
inst this example, there are innovative ways in which ossification will hap=
pen. This is based on a true story: We had no idea how GQUIC's flags field =
could get ossified, the value that was being used commonly became used as a=
 signature for QUIC traffic (see Section 7.5 in the SIGCOMM QUIC paper<http=
s://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__static.googleusercontent=
.com_media_research.google.com_en_pubs_archive_46403.pdf&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3D5VD=
0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=3DC0sUo-LFNBaYfyoaCsf6TA&m=3DSY87I4v_IqTCGOds-j5NCOwk=
Q0cJcYHGyKdXmMIVn6I&s=3DU9o6dI-dwzKwvXHvvmv7WtVm84puvxhaP0cN2of3VvA&e=3D>).



There's a win here in terms of implementation complexity and several implem=
enters have said so. There's a win in terms of ossification and our experie=
nce says so. There's a potential loss of manageability, in being able to de=
tect reordering. This is the trade-off, and I am still in favor of encrypti=
ng packet numbers.



On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 7:32 AM, Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK) =
<thomas.fossati@nokia.com<mailto:thomas.fossati@nokia.com>> wrote:

On 31/01/2018, 10:06, "QUIC on behalf of Eggert, Lars" <quic-bounces@ietf.o=
rg<mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of lars@netapp.com<mailto:lars@n=
etapp.com>> wrote:
> On 2018-1-31, at 10:52, Gorry Fairhurst <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk<mailto:gorr=
y@erg.abdn.ac.uk>> wrote:
> > +1 - Simply: This *is* complicated and seems to add little.
>
> So as an implementor (chair hat off), this adds very little to the
> overall complexity of the protocol.

This doesn't sound great.  It's a bit like saying that adding the Higgs
mechanism to the standard model's lagrangian doesn't make it much more
complicate :-)  (*)

More seriously though, I'd like to point out that it is not just about
implementation complexity, it's also the energy cost per packet that is
quite crucial.  I haven't done the math but ISTM that bringing in
another batch of non-optional crypto computation on a per packet basis
is not going to move the needle in the right direction for stacks that
run on low power (IoT).

This is not a catastrophe - we have CoAP and a (D)TLS profile - but
neither it's ideal, since cutting off the small things from the wider
ecosystem creates an artificial gap which then will need a middlebox to
bridge.  (Sure, we have specified the behaviour of a similar box
already, but it'd be really better if the extra translation logic could
be avoided in the first place.)

I guess what I'm saying is that PN encryption being a core mechanism
that can't be negotiated at handshake time reduces our ability to later
profile QUIC for the IoT, which would be a bit unlucky.

So the question is: would it be possible to make this property a
configurable knob instead?

(*) https://www.symmetrymagazine.org/article/the-deconstructed-standard-mod=
el-equation<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.symm=
etrymagazine.org_article_the-2Ddeconstructed-2Dstandard-2Dmodel-2Dequation&=
d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3D5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=3DC0sUo-LFNBaYfyoaCsf6TA&m=3DSY87I4=
v_IqTCGOds-j5NCOwkQ0cJcYHGyKdXmMIVn6I&s=3DetIO0AUHiJm8zucsWaTgo-XULFisCMoG2=
iDvwC69s9Q&e=3D>



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<p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">Placing/consuming unnecessary bit=
s into the protocol also may&nbsp;reduce&nbsp;bandwidth, even on LANs/intra=
nets.<br>
<br>
Optional security tends to devolve to non-secure.</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">-=3DR<br>
<br>
</p>
</div>
<hr style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%" tabindex=3D"-1">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" st=
yle=3D"font-size:11pt" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> Lubashev, Igor &lt;il=
ubashe@akamai.com&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, February 4, 2018 9:18:13 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Roni Even (A); Roberto Peon; Piotr Galecki; Jana Iyengar; Fossat=
i, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Gorry Fairhust; Eric Rescorla; Christian Huitema; Eggert, Lars; =
Brian Trammell; Mirja K=FChlewind; QUIC WG; Martin Thomson<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Packet number encryption</font>
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<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"x_WordSection1">
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">The need to troubleshoot networks (at a minimum, t=
o detect packet loss and reordering) is real.&nbsp; I would assume that eve=
ry network would need to have an ability to do so. &nbsp;Ability to quickly=
 troubleshoot and fix networks is not only =93nice=94
 for the networks themselves, but it is also very beneficial to QUIC users.=
</p>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">Having networks wrap and unwrap packets at their b=
oundaries is a possibility, though it has real costs and downsides. &nbsp;F=
irst, while networks could setup such wrapping for UDP port 443 traffic, wh=
at about QUIC traffic using other ports?&nbsp;
 Would networks need to wrap all UDP traffic?&nbsp; Second, this does reduc=
e MTU for end users, reducing available bandwidth.&nbsp; Third, this would =
allow networks to only answer questions like: =93Is my network the culprit =
of the problem?=94 instead of =93Is the problem
 in my network, upstream from me, or downstream from me?=94.</p>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">Would it be considered outrageous to suggest that =
packet number encryption be an option negotiated during connection handshak=
e?&nbsp; An end user client in =93Privacy-Enhanced=94 mode would negotiate =
this, while end users not particularly concerned
 with connection migration linkability issues would leave this off?</p>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">- Igor</p>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0i=
n 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Roni Even (A) [mailto:roni.even@huawe=
i.com] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, February 04, 2018 2:47 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Roberto Peon &lt;fenix@fb.com&gt;; Piotr Galecki &lt;piotr_galec=
ki@affirmednetworks.com&gt;; Jana Iyengar &lt;jri@google.com&gt;; Fossati, =
Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK) &lt;thomas.fossati@nokia.com&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Gorry Fairhust &lt;gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk&gt;; Eric Rescorla &lt;e=
kr@rtfm.com&gt;; Christian Huitema &lt;huitema@huitema.net&gt;; Eggert, Lar=
s &lt;lars@netapp.com&gt;; Brian Trammell &lt;ietf@trammell.ch&gt;; Mirja K=
=FChlewind &lt;mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch&gt;; QUIC WG &lt;quic@ietf.o=
rg&gt;;
 Martin Thomson &lt;martin.thomson@gmail.com&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Packet number encryption</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">Hi,</span></p>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">Network monitoring:</span></p>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">Networks may always wrap the packet(s) they h=
ave received with whatever data they wish, and unwrap before forwarding. Th=
is can allow any network to understand ordering,&nbsp;
 loss, etc within its boundaries.</span></p>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">RE- so you are saying that we can for example=
 &nbsp;leverage &nbsp;RTP and define RTP payload for QUIC that will carry Q=
UIC packets, we will just need to resolve the MTU size.</span></p>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">Roni</span></p>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none; border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt; padding:3.0pt 0i=
n 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:&q=
uot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0p=
t; font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,sans-serif"> QUIC [<a href=3D"mailto:quic=
-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Roberto Peon<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, February 03, 2018 8:38 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Piotr Galecki; Jana Iyengar; Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambrid=
ge, UK)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Gorry Fairhust; Eric Rescorla; Mirja K=FChlewind; Eggert, Lars; =
Brian Trammell; Christian Huitema; QUIC WG; Martin Thomson<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Packet number encryption</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">Ossification:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">In the past tcp middleboxes expected in-order=
, monotonically increasing offsets and tried to fix reordering before forwa=
rding. This middlebox behavior, predicated on
 observable flows, prevented deployment of things which would have made tcp=
 more efficient.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;This is the kind of non-theoretical oss=
ification that drove the creation of QUIC in the first place.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">Network monitoring:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">Networks may always wrap the packet(s) they h=
ave received with whatever data they wish, and unwrap before forwarding. Th=
is can allow any network to understand ordering,&nbsp;
 loss, etc within its boundaries.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">Debugging:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">Debugging of flows can still happen for flows=
 that wish to be debugged-- the QUIC connection's key material(s) can be sh=
ared manually and used by the debugging tool.
 This is how one debugs http2, https, etc. already today.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">-=3DR</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">-------- Original message --------</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">From: Piotr Galecki &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pio=
tr_galecki@affirmednetworks.com">piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.com</a>&gt;
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">Date: 2/2/18 7:00 PM (GMT-08:00)
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">To: Jana Iyengar &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jri@go=
ogle.com">jri@google.com</a>&gt;, &quot;Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambrid=
ge, UK)&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:thomas.fossati@nokia.com">thomas.fossat=
i@nokia.com</a>&gt;
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">Cc: Gorry Fairhust &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gorr=
y@erg.abdn.ac.uk">gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk</a>&gt;, Eric Rescorla &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;, Christian Huitema
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:huitema@huitema.net">huitema@huitema.net</a>&gt;, &q=
uot;Eggert, Lars&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lars@netapp.com">lars@netapp.c=
om</a>&gt;, Brian Trammell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@trammell.ch">ietf@tra=
mmell.ch</a>&gt;, Mirja K=FChlewind &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mirja.kuehlewind@=
tik.ee.ethz.ch">mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch</a>&gt;,
 QUIC WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Martin=
 Thomson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.thomson@gmail.com">martin.thomson@gma=
il.com</a>&gt;
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">Subject: RE: Packet number encryption
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot=
;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">&nbsp;</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">What is the group=92s proposal for allowing networ=
k monitoring tools to detect packet retransmission or packet reordering ?</=
p>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">These metrics are pretty straightforward to measur=
e for TCP flows.</p>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">Tools like Wireshark can analyze packets and spot =
issues.</p>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">How can the network tools perform this kind of mea=
surements for QUIC flows if PN field is encrypted?</p>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> QUIC [<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bounces@=
ietf.org">mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jana Iyengar<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 02, 2018 9:31 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:thomas.fossati@nokia.com">thomas.fossati@nokia.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Gorry Fairhust &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk">gorry=
@erg.abdn.ac.uk</a>&gt;; Eric Rescorla &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com">=
ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;; Mirja K=FChlewind &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mirja.kuehlew=
ind@tik.ee.ethz.ch">mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch</a>&gt;;
 Christian Huitema &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:huitema@huitema.net">huitema@huite=
ma.net</a>&gt;; Brian Trammell &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@trammell.ch">ietf=
@trammell.ch</a>&gt;; Eggert, Lars &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lars@netapp.com">l=
ars@netapp.com</a>&gt;; QUIC WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@i=
etf.org</a>&gt;;
 Martin Thomson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.thomson@gmail.com">martin.thom=
son@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Packet number encryption</p>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">A few points as I catch up on this thread.</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">First, I'll remind folks that QUIC is an encrypted=
 transport. I say this because the cost of this operation is trivial in the=
 context of encrypting every packet. The cost is borne at the servers and n=
ot at middleboxes, so the additional
 crypto cost is basically trivial.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">Second, this simplifies and increases robustness o=
f implementation. Avoiding random PN jumps, as Kazuho points out, makes spe=
cial-casing of code unnecessary. Special code that is exercised occasionall=
y is a strong bug attractor, and I
 would strongly argue for as few of those as possible in implementation.</p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">Third, yes, ossification is a real concern. A simp=
le example: using increasing packet numbers as a signature for detecting QU=
IC. Even if you argue against this example, there are innovative ways in wh=
ich ossification will happen. This
 is based on a true story:&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt; font-famil=
y:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif; color:#222222; background:white">We had no =
idea how GQUIC's flags field could get ossified, the value that was being u=
sed commonly became used as a signature for QUIC
 traffic (see Section 7.5 in the <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.c=
om/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__static.googleusercontent.com_media_research.google.=
com_en_pubs_archive_46403.pdf&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3D5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw=
&amp;r=3DC0sUo-LFNBaYfyoaCsf6TA&amp;m=3DSY87I4v_IqTCGOds-j5NCOwkQ0cJcYHGyKd=
XmMIVn6I&amp;s=3DU9o6dI-dwzKwvXHvvmv7WtVm84puvxhaP0cN2of3VvA&amp;e=3D">
SIGCOMM QUIC paper</a>).</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">There's a win here in terms of implementation comp=
lexity and several implementers have said so. There's a win in terms of oss=
ification and our experience says so. There's a potential loss of manageabi=
lity, in being able to detect reordering.
 This is the trade-off, and I am still in favor of encrypting packet number=
s.</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 7:32 AM, Fossati, Thomas (N=
okia - GB/Cambridge, UK) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:thomas.fossati@nokia.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">thomas.fossati@nokia.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none; border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt; padding:=
0in 0in 0in 6.0pt; margin-left:4.8pt; margin-top:5.0pt; margin-right:0in; m=
argin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">On 31/01/2018, 10:0=
6, &quot;QUIC on behalf of Eggert, Lars&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bo=
unces@ietf.org">quic-bounces@ietf.org</a> on behalf of
<a href=3D"mailto:lars@netapp.com">lars@netapp.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; On 2018-1-31, at 10:52, Gorry Fairhurst &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gorry@er=
g.abdn.ac.uk">gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; &gt; &#43;1 - Simply: This *is* complicated and seems to add little.<b=
r>
&gt;<br>
&gt; So as an implementor (chair hat off), this adds very little to the<br>
&gt; overall complexity of the protocol.<br>
<br>
This doesn't sound great.&nbsp; It's a bit like saying that adding the Higg=
s<br>
mechanism to the standard model's lagrangian doesn't make it much more<br>
complicate :-)&nbsp; (*)<br>
<br>
More seriously though, I'd like to point out that it is not just about<br>
implementation complexity, it's also the energy cost per packet that is<br>
quite crucial.&nbsp; I haven't done the math but ISTM that bringing in<br>
another batch of non-optional crypto computation on a per packet basis<br>
is not going to move the needle in the right direction for stacks that<br>
run on low power (IoT).<br>
<br>
This is not a catastrophe - we have CoAP and a (D)TLS profile - but<br>
neither it's ideal, since cutting off the small things from the wider<br>
ecosystem creates an artificial gap which then will need a middlebox to<br>
bridge.&nbsp; (Sure, we have specified the behaviour of a similar box<br>
already, but it'd be really better if the extra translation logic could<br>
be avoided in the first place.)<br>
<br>
I guess what I'm saying is that PN encryption being a core mechanism<br>
that can't be negotiated at handshake time reduces our ability to later<br>
profile QUIC for the IoT, which would be a bit unlucky.<br>
<br>
So the question is: would it be possible to make this property a<br>
configurable knob instead?<br>
<br>
(*) <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.s=
ymmetrymagazine.org_article_the-2Ddeconstructed-2Dstandard-2Dmodel-2Dequati=
on&amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3D5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&amp;r=3DC0sUo-LFNBaYfyoaCs=
f6TA&amp;m=3DSY87I4v_IqTCGOds-j5NCOwkQ0cJcYHGyKdXmMIVn6I&amp;s=3DetIO0AUHiJ=
m8zucsWaTgo-XULFisCMoG2iDvwC69s9Q&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">
https://www.symmetrymagazine.org/article/the-deconstructed-standard-model-e=
quation</a></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"x_MsoNormal">&nbsp;</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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From: "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>
To: Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>
CC: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
Thread-Topic: Packet number encryption
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References: <CABkgnnVyo3MmWtVULiV=FJTnR528qfY8-OmKGWAs0bCvri-a_g@mail.gmail.com> <1F7FB3B8-A94C-4354-9944-FB09FB8DB68B@trammell.ch> <CABcZeBMbwdwyC9TxxHBLYaZKfNB-FG2wCGjqUZ_mNR-A1R47FA@mail.gmail.com> <9096e5ec-581e-875a-b1dd-bff0b05206fd@huitema.net> <CABkgnnWRQSAufwPss+qf=xAzCwRYeNNH8XLPm3yFaHxOb+ba4g@mail.gmail.com> <BF80500A-6277-45DC-8525-9C3FE138B76D@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <5A7191E0.6010003@erg.abdn.ac.uk> <5214AD93-8376-4B25-922F-AF5551CC2E95@netapp.com> <F990E064-E6F8-41A3-B791-F776C9955E15@nokia.com> <CAGD1bZab0GaZFsHwC+nw3AxxC4VusxMJ6oDanzk3dSDdWKAXdw@mail.gmail.com> <2C515BE8694C6F4B9B6A578BCAC32E2F83BA1443@MBX021-W3-CA-2.exch021.domain.local> <BY2PR15MB07757473DB9788558B902EB5CDF80@BY2PR15MB0775.namprd15.prod.outlook.com> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD861B7F@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> <e529144067624fcba636fc8c24ee3ff4@usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com> <BY2PR15MB07754D83A1721F2BD742359BCDFE0@BY2PR15MB0775.namprd15.prod.outlook.com> <2CD9DC43-D69B-43F0-8474-DFE798850A52@akamai.com>
From: Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>
Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2018 20:34:37 -0800
Message-ID: <CAGD1bZaUuNxqpDkn62B0wWcFD8=mCUWrAwWGG-rAOxH7Mf1=cQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
To: "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>
Cc: Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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Privacy-protection can't be a user choice, for the reasons others have
noted on this thread.

That said, my primary argument is for encryption to avoid ossification. Not
that it matters now, but I'll note that much of GQUIC's original motivation
for encrypting headers was to avoid ossification.

I'll reiterate that fields we expose will get ossified and there are
long-term ecosystem effects to this. Let me illustrate this with precisely
the packet number field. Middleboxes commonly assume that a TCP flow can
only handle packets in-order. This assumption comes from the fact that TCP
implementations get poor performance when packets are reordered. This was
definitely true for implementations of TCP, but that is TCP's problem, not
the network's. However, almost all load-balancers I know of now will pin
all packets within a TCP flow to one path, leading to sub-optimal
performance in the network, and destroying incentives for the endpoints to
deploy reordering-resilient TCP implementations (even though there are
plenty of ways of doing this.)

Exposing QUIC's packet number field (as any field) is likely to have
similar consequences and a similar ecosystem arc.


On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 7:51 PM, Salz, Rich <rsalz@akamai.com> wrote:

> > Optional security tends to devolve to non-secure.
>
>
>
> That=E2=80=99s a great aphorism.  And sadly all too true.
>

--94eb2c0b14847361ee05646f94ea
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Privacy-protection can&#39;t be a user choice, for the rea=
sons others have noted on this thread.=C2=A0<div><br>That said, my primary =
argument is for encryption to avoid ossification. Not that it matters now, =
but I&#39;ll note that much of GQUIC&#39;s original motivation for encrypti=
ng headers was to avoid ossification.</div><div><br></div><div>I&#39;ll rei=
terate that fields we expose will get ossified and there are long-term ecos=
ystem effects to this. Let me illustrate this with precisely the packet num=
ber field. Middleboxes commonly assume that a TCP flow can only handle pack=
ets in-order. This assumption comes from the fact that TCP implementations =
get poor performance when packets are reordered. This was definitely true f=
or implementations of TCP, but that is TCP&#39;s problem, not the network&#=
39;s. However, almost all load-balancers I know of now will pin all packets=
 within a TCP flow to one path, leading to sub-optimal performance in the n=
etwork, and destroying incentives for the endpoints to deploy reordering-re=
silient TCP implementations (even though there are plenty of ways of doing =
this.)</div><div><br></div><div>Exposing QUIC&#39;s packet number field (as=
 any field) is likely to have similar consequences and a similar ecosystem =
arc.</div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D=
"gmail_quote">On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 7:51 PM, Salz, Rich <span dir=3D"ltr">=
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rsalz@akamai.com" target=3D"_blank">rsalz@akamai.com<=
/a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">







<div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_-791487608242578504WordSection1"><span class=3D"">
<p><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">&gt; Optional security tend=
s to devolve to non-secure.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</span><div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"m_-791487608242578504xmsonormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-791487608242578504xmsonormal">That=E2=80=99s a great aphoris=
m.=C2=A0 And sadly all too true.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>

--94eb2c0b14847361ee05646f94ea--


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From: "Roni Even" <ron.even.tlv@gmail.com>
To: "'Roberto Peon'" <fenix@fb.com>, "'Roni Even \(A\)'" <roni.even@huawei.com>, "'Piotr Galecki'" <piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.com>, "'Jana Iyengar'" <jri@google.com>, "'Fossati, Thomas \(Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK\)'" <thomas.fossati@nokia.com>
Cc: "'Gorry Fairhust'" <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>, "'Eric Rescorla'" <ekr@rtfm.com>, "'Christian Huitema'" <huitema@huitema.net>, "'Eggert, Lars'" <lars@netapp.com>, "'Brian Trammell'" <ietf@trammell.ch>, =?iso-8859-1?Q?'Mirja_K=FChlewind'?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, "'QUIC WG'" <quic@ietf.org>, "'Martin Thomson'" <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
References: <CABkgnnVyo3MmWtVULiV=FJTnR528qfY8-OmKGWAs0bCvri-a_g@mail.gmail.com> <1F7FB3B8-A94C-4354-9944-FB09FB8DB68B@trammell.ch> <CABcZeBMbwdwyC9TxxHBLYaZKfNB-FG2wCGjqUZ_mNR-A1R47FA@mail.gmail.com> <9096e5ec-581e-875a-b1dd-bff0b05206fd@huitema.net> <CABkgnnWRQSAufwPss+qf=xAzCwRYeNNH8XLPm3yFaHxOb+ba4g@mail.gmail.com> <BF80500A-6277-45DC-8525-9C3FE138B76D@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <5A7191E0.6010003@erg.abdn.ac.uk> <5214AD93-8376-4B25-922F-AF5551CC2E95@netapp.com> <F990E064-E6F8-41A3-B791-F776C9955E15@nokia.com> <CAGD1bZab0GaZFsHwC+nw3AxxC4VusxMJ6oDanzk3dSDdWKAXdw@mail.gmail.com>, <2C515BE8694C6F4B9B6A578BCAC32E2F83BA1443@MBX021-W3-CA-2.exch021.domain.local> <BY2PR15MB07757473DB9788558B902EB5CDF80@BY2PR15MB0775.namprd15.prod.outlook.com>, <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD861B7F@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> <BY2PR15MB07758F932FBB87047ACB9D9ACDFE0@BY2PR15MB0775.namprd15.prod.outlook.com>
In-Reply-To: <BY2PR15MB07758F932FBB87047ACB9D9ACDFE0@BY2PR15MB0775.namprd15.prod.outlook.com>
Subject: RE: Packet number encryption
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 06:58:17 +0200
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Does not it mean that the network need to identify packets  that are =
from
the same quic connection to make such wrapping?

Roni

=20

From: QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roberto Peon
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2018 2:38 AM
To: Roni Even (A); Piotr Galecki; Jana Iyengar; Fossati, Thomas (Nokia -
GB/Cambridge, UK)
Cc: Gorry Fairhust; Eric Rescorla; Christian Huitema; Eggert, Lars; =
Brian
Trammell; Mirja K=FChlewind; QUIC WG; Martin Thomson
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption

=20

A network could carry whatever protocol it wished to, i.e. by wrapping
any/all packets on ingress to the network, and then un-wrapping when
forwarding to another network. This would allow a network to record and
track whatever it wanted to without placing constraints on layers which
should be above it.=20


If the network placed a sequence number on incoming packets, it could =
detect
reordering across all flows. If it do so on a 5-tuple basis, it could =
detect
reordering/duplication/loss across any 5-tuple.

=20

-=3DR

  _____ =20

From: Roni Even (A) <roni.even@huawei.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 3, 2018 11:47:06 PM
To: Roberto Peon; Piotr Galecki; Jana Iyengar; Fossati, Thomas (Nokia -
GB/Cambridge, UK)
Cc: Gorry Fairhust; Eric Rescorla; Mirja K=FChlewind; Eggert, Lars; =
Brian
Trammell; Christian Huitema; QUIC WG; Martin Thomson
Subject: RE: Packet number encryption=20

=20

Hi,

Network monitoring:

Networks may always wrap the packet(s) they have received with whatever =
data
they wish, and unwrap before forwarding. This can allow any network to
understand ordering,  loss, etc within its boundaries.

=20

RE- so you are saying that we can for example  leverage  RTP and define =
RTP
payload for QUIC that will carry QUIC packets, we will just need to =
resolve
the MTU size.

Roni

=20

=20

From: QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roberto Peon
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2018 8:38 PM
To: Piotr Galecki; Jana Iyengar; Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, =
UK)
Cc: Gorry Fairhust; Eric Rescorla; Mirja K=FChlewind; Eggert, Lars; =
Brian
Trammell; Christian Huitema; QUIC WG; Martin Thomson
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption

=20

Ossification:

In the past tcp middleboxes expected in-order, monotonically increasing
offsets and tried to fix reordering before forwarding. This middlebox
behavior, predicated on observable flows, prevented deployment of things
which would have made tcp more efficient.

=20

 This is the kind of non-theoretical ossification that drove the =
creation of
QUIC in the first place.

=20

Network monitoring:

Networks may always wrap the packet(s) they have received with whatever =
data
they wish, and unwrap before forwarding. This can allow any network to
understand ordering,  loss, etc within its boundaries.

=20

Debugging:

Debugging of flows can still happen for flows that wish to be debugged-- =
the
QUIC connection's key material(s) can be shared manually and used by the
debugging tool. This is how one debugs http2, https, etc. already today.

=20

-=3DR

=20

=20

=20

-------- Original message --------

From: Piotr Galecki <piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.com>=20

Date: 2/2/18 7:00 PM (GMT-08:00)=20

To: Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>, "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - =
GB/Cambridge,
UK)" <thomas.fossati@nokia.com>=20

Cc: Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>,
Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, "Eggert, Lars" =
<lars@netapp.com>,
Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>, Mirja K=FChlewind
<mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Martin =
Thomson
<martin.thomson@gmail.com>=20

Subject: RE: Packet number encryption=20

=20

What is the group=92s proposal for allowing network monitoring tools to =
detect
packet retransmission or packet reordering ?

These metrics are pretty straightforward to measure for TCP flows.

Tools like Wireshark can analyze packets and spot issues.

How can the network tools perform this kind of measurements for QUIC =
flows
if PN field is encrypted?

=20

=20

From: QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jana Iyengar
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2018 9:31 PM
To: Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK) =
<thomas.fossati@nokia.com>
Cc: Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>; Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>;
Mirja K=FChlewind <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>; Christian Huitema
<huitema@huitema.net>; Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>; Eggert, Lars
<lars@netapp.com>; QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>; Martin Thomson
<martin.thomson@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption

=20

A few points as I catch up on this thread.

=20

First, I'll remind folks that QUIC is an encrypted transport. I say this
because the cost of this operation is trivial in the context of =
encrypting
every packet. The cost is borne at the servers and not at middleboxes, =
so
the additional crypto cost is basically trivial.

=20

Second, this simplifies and increases robustness of implementation. =
Avoiding
random PN jumps, as Kazuho points out, makes special-casing of code
unnecessary. Special code that is exercised occasionally is a strong bug
attractor, and I would strongly argue for as few of those as possible in
implementation.

=20

Third, yes, ossification is a real concern. A simple example: using
increasing packet numbers as a signature for detecting QUIC. Even if you
argue against this example, there are innovative ways in which =
ossification
will happen. This is based on a true story: We had no idea how GQUIC's =
flags
field could get ossified, the value that was being used commonly became =
used
as a signature for QUIC traffic (see Section 7.5 in the SIGCOMM QUIC =
paper
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__static.googleuser=
conte
nt.com_media_research.google.com_en_pubs_archive_46403.pdf&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=3D=
5VD0RT
tNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=3DC0sUo-LFNBaYfyoaCsf6TA&m=3DSY87I4v_IqTCGOds-j5NCOwkQ=
0cJcYHG
yKdXmMIVn6I&s=3DU9o6dI-dwzKwvXHvvmv7WtVm84puvxhaP0cN2of3VvA&e=3D> ).

=20

There's a win here in terms of implementation complexity and several
implementers have said so. There's a win in terms of ossification and =
our
experience says so. There's a potential loss of manageability, in being =
able
to detect reordering. This is the trade-off, and I am still in favor of
encrypting packet numbers.

=20

On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 7:32 AM, Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, =
UK)
<thomas.fossati@nokia.com> wrote:

On 31/01/2018, 10:06, "QUIC on behalf of Eggert, Lars"
<quic-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of lars@netapp.com> wrote:
> On 2018-1-31, at 10:52, Gorry Fairhurst <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk> wrote:
> > +1 - Simply: This *is* complicated and seems to add little.
>
> So as an implementor (chair hat off), this adds very little to the
> overall complexity of the protocol.

This doesn't sound great.  It's a bit like saying that adding the Higgs
mechanism to the standard model's lagrangian doesn't make it much more
complicate :-)  (*)

More seriously though, I'd like to point out that it is not just about
implementation complexity, it's also the energy cost per packet that is
quite crucial.  I haven't done the math but ISTM that bringing in
another batch of non-optional crypto computation on a per packet basis
is not going to move the needle in the right direction for stacks that
run on low power (IoT).

This is not a catastrophe - we have CoAP and a (D)TLS profile - but
neither it's ideal, since cutting off the small things from the wider
ecosystem creates an artificial gap which then will need a middlebox to
bridge.  (Sure, we have specified the behaviour of a similar box
already, but it'd be really better if the extra translation logic could
be avoided in the first place.)

I guess what I'm saying is that PN encryption being a core mechanism
that can't be negotiated at handshake time reduces our ability to later
profile QUIC for the IoT, which would be a bit unlucky.

So the question is: would it be possible to make this property a
configurable knob instead?

(*)
https://www.symmetrymagazine.org/article/the-deconstructed-standard-model=
-eq
uation
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.symmetrymagaz=
ine.o
rg_article_the-2Ddeconstructed-2Dstandard-2Dmodel-2Dequation&d=3DDwMGaQ&c=
=3D5VD0
RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=3DC0sUo-LFNBaYfyoaCsf6TA&m=3DSY87I4v_IqTCGOds-j5NCOw=
kQ0cJcY
HGyKdXmMIVn6I&s=3DetIO0AUHiJm8zucsWaTgo-XULFisCMoG2iDvwC69s9Q&e=3D>=20

=20


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<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Does not it mean that the network need to identify packets =A0that =
are from the same quic connection to make such =
wrapping?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Roni<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Roberto =
Peon<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 05, 2018 2:38 AM<br><b>To:</b> =
Roni Even (A); Piotr Galecki; Jana Iyengar; Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - =
GB/Cambridge, UK)<br><b>Cc:</b> Gorry Fairhust; Eric Rescorla; Christian =
Huitema; Eggert, Lars; Brian Trammell; Mirja K=FChlewind; QUIC WG; =
Martin Thomson<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: Packet number =
encryption<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div =
id=3Ddivtagdefaultwrapper><p><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>A network could =
carry whatever protocol it wished to, i.e. by wrapping any/all packets =
on ingress to the network,&nbsp;and then&nbsp;un-wrapping when =
forwarding to another network. This would allow a network to record and =
track whatever it wanted to without placing constraints on layers which =
should be above it.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><br>If the =
network placed a sequence number on incoming packets, it could detect =
reordering across all flows. If it do so on a 5-tuple basis, it could =
detect reordering/duplication/loss across any =
5-tuple.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p=
></span></p><p><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'>-=3DR<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p></div><div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'text-align:center'><hr size=3D2 width=3D"98%" =
align=3Dcenter></div><div id=3DdivRplyFwdMsg><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
>From:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:black'=
> Roni Even (A) &lt;roni.even@huawei.com&gt;<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, =
February 3, 2018 11:47:06 PM<br><b>To:</b> Roberto Peon; Piotr Galecki; =
Jana Iyengar; Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK)<br><b>Cc:</b> =
Gorry Fairhust; Eric Rescorla; Mirja K=FChlewind; Eggert, Lars; Brian =
Trammell; Christian Huitema; QUIC WG; Martin Thomson<br><b>Subject:</b> =
RE: Packet number encryption</span> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p =
class=3Dxmsonormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times =
New Roman","serif"'>Hi,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dxmsonormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>Network =
monitoring:</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dxmsonormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif"'>Networks may always wrap the packet(s) they have =
received with whatever data they wish, and unwrap before forwarding. =
This can allow any network to understand ordering,&nbsp; loss, etc =
within its boundaries.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dxmsonormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif"'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dxmsonormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>RE- so =
you are saying that we can for example &nbsp;leverage &nbsp;RTP and =
define RTP payload for QUIC that will carry QUIC packets, we will just =
need to resolve the MTU size.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dxmsonormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times =
New Roman","serif"'>Roni</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dxmsonormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dxmsonormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm'><p class=3Dxmsonormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> =
QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Roberto =
Peon<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, February 03, 2018 8:38 PM<br><b>To:</b> =
Piotr Galecki; Jana Iyengar; Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, =
UK)<br><b>Cc:</b> Gorry Fairhust; Eric Rescorla; Mirja K=FChlewind; =
Eggert, Lars; Brian Trammell; Christian Huitema; QUIC WG; Martin =
Thomson<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: Packet number =
encryption</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p =
class=3Dxmsonormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3Dxmsonormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif"'>Ossification:</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3Dxmsonormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times =
New Roman","serif"'>In the past tcp middleboxes expected in-order, =
monotonically increasing offsets and tried to fix reordering before =
forwarding. This middlebox behavior, predicated on observable flows, =
prevented deployment of things which would have made tcp more =
efficient.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3Dxmsonormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif"'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3Dxmsonormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times =
New Roman","serif"'>&nbsp;This is the kind of non-theoretical =
ossification that drove the creation of QUIC in the first =
place.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3Dxmsonormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif"'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3Dxmsonormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times =
New Roman","serif"'>Network =
monitoring:</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3Dxmsonormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif"'>Networks may always wrap the packet(s) they have =
received with whatever data they wish, and unwrap before forwarding. =
This can allow any network to understand ordering,&nbsp; loss, etc =
within its boundaries.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3Dxmsonormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times =
New Roman","serif"'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3Dxmsonormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times =
New Roman","serif"'>Debugging:</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3Dxmsonormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times =
New Roman","serif"'>Debugging of flows can still happen for flows that =
wish to be debugged-- the QUIC connection's key material(s) can be =
shared manually and used by the debugging tool. This is how one debugs =
http2, https, etc. already today.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3Dxmsonormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times =
New Roman","serif"'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3Dxmsonormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times =
New Roman","serif"'>-=3DR</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3Dxmsonormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times =
New Roman","serif"'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3Dxmsonormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times =
New Roman","serif"'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3Dxmsonormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times =
New Roman","serif"'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3Dxmsonormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times =
New Roman","serif"'>-------- Original message =
--------</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3Dxmsonormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>From: =
Piotr Galecki &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.com">piotr_galecki@affirmed=
networks.com</a>&gt; </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3Dxmsonormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times =
New Roman","serif"'>Date: 2/2/18 7:00 PM (GMT-08:00) =
</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3Dxmsonormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>To: =
Jana Iyengar &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jri@google.com">jri@google.com</a>&gt;, &quot;Fossati, =
Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK)&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:thomas.fossati@nokia.com">thomas.fossati@nokia.com</a>&gt;=
 </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3Dxmsonormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>Cc: =
Gorry Fairhust &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk">gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk</a>&gt;, Eric =
Rescorla &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;, =
Christian Huitema &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:huitema@huitema.net">huitema@huitema.net</a>&gt;, =
&quot;Eggert, Lars&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:lars@netapp.com">lars@netapp.com</a>&gt;, Brian Trammell =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@trammell.ch">ietf@trammell.ch</a>&gt;, Mirja =
K=FChlewind &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch">mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.e=
thz.ch</a>&gt;, QUIC WG &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Martin Thomson =
&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:martin.thomson@gmail.com">martin.thomson@gmail.com</a>&gt;=
 </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3Dxmsonormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif"'>Subject: RE: Packet number encryption =
</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3Dxmsonormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman","serif"'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p =
class=3Dxmsonormal>What is the group&#8217;s proposal for allowing =
network monitoring tools to detect packet retransmission or packet =
reordering ?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dxmsonormal>These metrics are =
pretty straightforward to measure for TCP flows.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dxmsonormal>Tools like Wireshark can analyze packets and spot =
issues.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dxmsonormal>How can the network tools =
perform this kind of measurements for QUIC flows if PN field is =
encrypted?<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3Dxmsonormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dxmsonormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dxmsonormal><b>From:</b> QUIC [<a =
href=3D"mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>] =
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jana Iyengar<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 02, =
2018 9:31 PM<br><b>To:</b> Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK) =
&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:thomas.fossati@nokia.com">thomas.fossati@nokia.com</a>&gt;=
<br><b>Cc:</b> Gorry Fairhust &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk">gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk</a>&gt;; Eric =
Rescorla &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;; Mirja =
K=FChlewind &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch">mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.e=
thz.ch</a>&gt;; Christian Huitema &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:huitema@huitema.net">huitema@huitema.net</a>&gt;; Brian =
Trammell &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ietf@trammell.ch">ietf@trammell.ch</a>&gt;; Eggert, Lars =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lars@netapp.com">lars@netapp.com</a>&gt;; QUIC WG =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Martin =
Thomson &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:martin.thomson@gmail.com">martin.thomson@gmail.com</a>&gt;=
<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: Packet number encryption<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3Dxmsonormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3Dxmsonormal>A few =
points as I catch up on this thread.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3Dxmsonormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3Dxmsonormal>First, I'll remind folks that QUIC is an encrypted =
transport. I say this because the cost of this operation is trivial in =
the context of encrypting every packet. The cost is borne at the servers =
and not at middleboxes, so the additional crypto cost is basically =
trivial.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3Dxmsonormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3Dxmsonormal>Second, this simplifies and increases robustness of =
implementation. Avoiding random PN jumps, as Kazuho points out, makes =
special-casing of code unnecessary. Special code that is exercised =
occasionally is a strong bug attractor, and I would strongly argue for =
as few of those as possible in =
implementation.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3Dxmsonormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3Dxmsonormal>Third, yes, ossification is a real concern. A simple =
example: using increasing packet numbers as a signature for detecting =
QUIC. Even if you argue against this example, there are innovative ways =
in which ossification will happen. This is based on a true =
story:&nbsp;<span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#222222;=
background:white'>We had no idea how GQUIC's flags field could get =
ossified, the value that was being used commonly became used as a =
signature for QUIC traffic (see Section 7.5 in the <a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__static.goo=
gleusercontent.com_media_research.google.com_en_pubs_archive_46403.pdf&am=
p;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3D5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&amp;r=3DC0sUo-LFNBaYfyoaCsf6T=
A&amp;m=3DSY87I4v_IqTCGOds-j5NCOwkQ0cJcYHGyKdXmMIVn6I&amp;s=3DU9o6dI-dwzK=
wvXHvvmv7WtVm84puvxhaP0cN2of3VvA&amp;e=3D">SIGCOMM QUIC =
paper</a>).</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3Dxmsonormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3Dxmsonormal>There's a win here in terms of implementation =
complexity and several implementers have said so. There's a win in terms =
of ossification and our experience says so. There's a potential loss of =
manageability, in being able to detect reordering. This is the =
trade-off, and I am still in favor of encrypting packet =
numbers.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p =
class=3Dxmsonormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3Dxmsonormal>On =
Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 7:32 AM, Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK) =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:thomas.fossati@nokia.com" =
target=3D"_blank">thomas.fossati@nokia.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid =
#CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5=
.0pt'><p class=3Dxmsonormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>On =
31/01/2018, 10:06, &quot;QUIC on behalf of Eggert, Lars&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org">quic-bounces@ietf.org</a> on =
behalf of <a href=3D"mailto:lars@netapp.com">lars@netapp.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br>&gt; On 2018-1-31, at 10:52, Gorry Fairhurst &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk">gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br>&gt; &gt; +1 - Simply: This *is* complicated and seems to add =
little.<br>&gt;<br>&gt; So as an implementor (chair hat off), this adds =
very little to the<br>&gt; overall complexity of the =
protocol.<br><br>This doesn't sound great.&nbsp; It's a bit like saying =
that adding the Higgs<br>mechanism to the standard model's lagrangian =
doesn't make it much more<br>complicate :-)&nbsp; (*)<br><br>More =
seriously though, I'd like to point out that it is not just =
about<br>implementation complexity, it's also the energy cost per packet =
that is<br>quite crucial.&nbsp; I haven't done the math but ISTM that =
bringing in<br>another batch of non-optional crypto computation on a per =
packet basis<br>is not going to move the needle in the right direction =
for stacks that<br>run on low power (IoT).<br><br>This is not a =
catastrophe - we have CoAP and a (D)TLS profile - but<br>neither it's =
ideal, since cutting off the small things from the wider<br>ecosystem =
creates an artificial gap which then will need a middlebox =
to<br>bridge.&nbsp; (Sure, we have specified the behaviour of a similar =
box<br>already, but it'd be really better if the extra translation logic =
could<br>be avoided in the first place.)<br><br>I guess what I'm saying =
is that PN encryption being a core mechanism<br>that can't be negotiated =
at handshake time reduces our ability to later<br>profile QUIC for the =
IoT, which would be a bit unlucky.<br><br>So the question is: would it =
be possible to make this property a<br>configurable knob =
instead?<br><br>(*) <a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.symmet=
rymagazine.org_article_the-2Ddeconstructed-2Dstandard-2Dmodel-2Dequation&=
amp;d=3DDwMGaQ&amp;c=3D5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&amp;r=3DC0sUo-LFNBaYfyoaCsf=
6TA&amp;m=3DSY87I4v_IqTCGOds-j5NCOwkQ0cJcYHGyKdXmMIVn6I&amp;s=3DetIO0AUHi=
Jm8zucsWaTgo-XULFisCMoG2iDvwC69s9Q&amp;e=3D" =
target=3D"_blank">https://www.symmetrymagazine.org/article/the-deconstruc=
ted-standard-model-equation</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div><p =
class=3Dxmsonormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div></d=
iv></div></body></html>
------=_NextPart_000_00F4_01D39E4E.B4E6F930--


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From: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
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Subject: Call for Adoption: Invariants
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Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 17:07:45 +1100
Cc: Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>
To: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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At the Melbourne meeting, there was strong support for adopting Martin's =
invariants draft:

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thomson-quic-invariants-00

Any objections / concerns about doing so? Unless we hear otherwise, =
we'll adopt at the end of the week.

Cheers,

--
Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/


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Subject: Call for Adoption: QCRAM
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In Melbourne, there was strong support (with a small amount of pushback =
which was discussed) for adopting QCRAM:

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-krasic-quic-qcram-04

Any objections / concerns about doing so? Unless we hear otherwise, =
we'll adopt at the end of the week.

Cheers,

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Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/


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On 2/4/2018 6:58 PM, Roni Even wrote:

> Does not it mean that the network need to identify packets  that are
> from the same quic connection to make such wrapping?
>

Not really. The network can take any slice of the input packets,
assigned them a sequence number, and verify that the slice comes out the
same way it went in. Or count losses, reordering, etc. Slicing by five
tuple should work just fine.

-- Christian Huitema

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<html>
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    <p>On 2/4/2018 6:58 PM, Roni Even wrote:<br>
    </p>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:00f301d39e3d$f15bdf40$d4139dc0$@gmail.com">
      <p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Does
          not it mean that the network need to identify packets  that
          are from the same quic connection to make such wrapping?</span></p>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    Not really. The network can take any slice of the input packets,
    assigned them a sequence number, and verify that the slice comes out
    the same way it went in. Or count losses, reordering, etc. Slicing
    by five tuple should work just fine.<br>
    <br>
    -- Christian Huitema<br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------7DBB1BF7AD10D7D2272DE2CB--


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From: "Roni Even (A)" <roni.even@huawei.com>
To: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Packet number encryption
Thread-Topic: Packet number encryption
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Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 06:24:03 +0000
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BTW:
This will only provide information about reorder in this network segment an=
d not end to end which is what the requirement is for.
Roni

From: QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Christian Huitema
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2018 8:14 AM
To: quic@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption


On 2/4/2018 6:58 PM, Roni Even wrote:
Does not it mean that the network need to identify packets  that are from t=
he same quic connection to make such wrapping?

Not really. The network can take any slice of the input packets, assigned t=
hem a sequence number, and verify that the slice comes out the same way it =
went in. Or count losses, reordering, etc. Slicing by five tuple should wor=
k just fine.

-- Christian Huitema

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">BTW:<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">This will only provide in=
formation about reorder in this network segment and not end to end which is=
 what the requirement is for.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Roni<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:windowtext">From:</span></b><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif=
&quot;;color:windowtext"> QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Christian Huitema<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 05, 2018 8:14 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> quic@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Packet number encryption<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p>On 2/4/2018 6:58 PM, Roni Even wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&q=
uot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Does not it mean that the network need =
to identify packets &nbsp;that are from the same quic connection
 to make such wrapping?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
Not really. The network can take any slice of the input packets, assigned t=
hem a sequence number, and verify that the slice comes out the same way it =
went in. Or count losses, reordering, etc. Slicing by five tuple should wor=
k just fine.<br>
<br>
-- Christian Huitema<o:p></o:p></p>
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From: Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>
To: Roni Even <ron.even.tlv@gmail.com>, "'Roni Even (A)'" <roni.even@huawei.com>, 'Piotr Galecki' <piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.com>, 'Jana Iyengar' <jri@google.com>, "'Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK)'" <thomas.fossati@nokia.com>
CC: 'Gorry Fairhust' <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>, 'Eric Rescorla' <ekr@rtfm.com>, 'Christian Huitema' <huitema@huitema.net>, "'Eggert, Lars'" <lars@netapp.com>, 'Brian Trammell' <ietf@trammell.ch>, =?utf-8?B?J01pcmphIEvDvGhsZXdpbmQn?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, 'QUIC WG' <quic@ietf.org>, 'Martin Thomson' <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
Thread-Topic: Packet number encryption
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From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mikkel_Fahn=F8e_J=F8rgensen?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>
To: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
CC: Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>
Subject: Re: Call for Adoption: Invariants
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Only concern is when it takes effect since it likely needs adjustments. And=
 perhaps a procedure to handle invariant changes since everything changes.
________________________________
From: QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.=
net>
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 7:07:45 AM
To: QUIC WG
Cc: Lars Eggert
Subject: Call for Adoption: Invariants

At the Melbourne meeting, there was strong support for adopting Martin's in=
variants draft:

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thomson-quic-invariants-00

Any objections / concerns about doing so? Unless we hear otherwise, we'll a=
dopt at the end of the week.

Cheers,

--
Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/


--_000_DB6PR10MB17667AAB19D4A9288FD5BAF3ACFE0DB6PR10MB1766EURP_
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<html>
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1">
<meta name=3D"Generator" content=3D"Microsoft Exchange Server">
<!-- converted from text --><style><!-- .EmailQuote { margin-left: 1pt; pad=
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ganization"><span itemprop=3D"name"></span></span>
<div>
<div style=3D"direction:ltr">
<div style=3D"direction:ltr">Only concern is when it takes effect since it =
likely needs adjustments. And perhaps a procedure to handle invariant chang=
es since everything changes.</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"x_acompli_signature"></div>
</div>
</div>
<hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id=3D"x_divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" =
color=3D"#000000" style=3D"font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> QUIC &lt;quic-bounc=
es@ietf.org&gt; on behalf of Mark Nottingham &lt;mnot@mnot.net&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 5, 2018 7:07:45 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> QUIC WG<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Lars Eggert<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Call for Adoption: Invariants</font>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
</div>
<font size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;">
<div class=3D"PlainText">At the Melbourne meeting, there was strong support=
 for adopting Martin's invariants draft:<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thomson-quic-invariants-00">ht=
tps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thomson-quic-invariants-00</a><br>
<br>
Any objections / concerns about doing so? Unless we hear otherwise, we'll a=
dopt at the end of the week.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
--<br>
Mark Nottingham&nbsp;&nbsp; <a href=3D"https://www.mnot.net/">https://www.m=
not.net/</a><br>
<br>
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Subject: Re: Call for Adoption: Invariants
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 09:33:33 +0100
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Cc: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>
To: =?utf-8?Q?Mikkel_Fahn=C3=B8e_J=C3=B8rgensen?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>
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Hi, all,

I support adoption of the invariants draft.

> On 5 Feb 2018, at 08:51, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen =
<mikkelfj@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> Only concern is when it takes effect since it likely needs =
adjustments.

I'd presume that invariants is published simultaneously with the version =
1 spec.

> And perhaps a procedure to handle invariant changes since everything =
changes.

Noted, though the point of declaring something an invariant is to say =
"the meaning of this part of the wire image, expressed as a bit offset, =
will never change". You can add constraints to the invariants, but if =
you think you might remove a constraint, then it's not an invariant by =
definition.

Cheers,

Brian

> From: QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Mark Nottingham =
<mnot@mnot.net>
> Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 7:07:45 AM
> To: QUIC WG
> Cc: Lars Eggert
> Subject: Call for Adoption: Invariants
>=20
> At the Melbourne meeting, there was strong support for adopting =
Martin's invariants draft:
>=20
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thomson-quic-invariants-00
>=20
> Any objections / concerns about doing so? Unless we hear otherwise, =
we'll adopt at the end of the week.
>=20
> Cheers,
>=20
> --
> Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/


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From nobody Mon Feb  5 00:37:05 2018
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CC: Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Reducing ossification through protocol design (was Re: Packet number encryption)
References: <CABkgnnVyo3MmWtVULiV=FJTnR528qfY8-OmKGWAs0bCvri-a_g@mail.gmail.com> <1F7FB3B8-A94C-4354-9944-FB09FB8DB68B@trammell.ch> <CABcZeBMbwdwyC9TxxHBLYaZKfNB-FG2wCGjqUZ_mNR-A1R47FA@mail.gmail.com> <9096e5ec-581e-875a-b1dd-bff0b05206fd@huitema.net> <CABkgnnWRQSAufwPss+qf=xAzCwRYeNNH8XLPm3yFaHxOb+ba4g@mail.gmail.com> <BF80500A-6277-45DC-8525-9C3FE138B76D@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <5A7191E0.6010003@erg.abdn.ac.uk> <5214AD93-8376-4B25-922F-AF5551CC2E95@netapp.com> <F990E064-E6F8-41A3-B791-F776C9955E15@nokia.com> <CAGD1bZab0GaZFsHwC+nw3AxxC4VusxMJ6oDanzk3dSDdWKAXdw@mail.gmail.com> <2C515BE8694C6F4B9B6A578BCAC32E2F83BA1443@MBX021-W3-CA-2.exch021.domain.local> <BY2PR15MB07757473DB9788558B902EB5CDF80@BY2PR15MB0775.namprd15.prod.outlook.com> <F9D94BFE-3DAE-493D-BC06-F88B417C70F4@trammell.ch>
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On 04/02/2018, 21:31, Brian Trammell (IETF) wrote:
> hi Roberto, all,
>
> (trimming CC, forking thread, since this *really* is separate from the question of packet number encryption.)
>
>> On 3 Feb 2018, at 19:37, Roberto Peon<fenix@fb.com>  wrote:
>>
>> Ossification:
>> In the past tcp middleboxes expected in-order, monotonically increasing offsets and tried to fix reordering before forwarding. This middlebox behavior, predicated on observable flows, prevented deployment of things which would have made tcp more efficient.
>>
>>   This is the kind of non-theoretical ossification that drove the creation of QUIC in the first place.
> This becomes more theoretical when you apply observations about TCP to QUIC:
>
> (1) Sequence numbering in TCP is far more broken than packet numbering (encrypted or not) ever could be, simply because it's not end-to-end integrity protected. The first deployed sequence number meddling boxes, IIRC, were designed to randomize ISNs (i.e., rewrite them), since stacks that did so were slow to deploy. PN rewriting is not only useless in QUIC, it'll break the connection.
+1 Experience with TCP doesn’t; necessarily help people understand what 
will happen with QUIC. Because TCP exposes all its protocol information, 
a middlebox can do a lot more than observe the sequence number, it can 
actually insert itself as a proxy for protocol mechanisms. This is not 
possible with QUIC.



> (2) Many TCP stacks actually had (and some have) crap performance under certain reordering patterns, such that the deployment of a middlebox that did "fix" reordered packets would have had measurable benefits when tested against the stacks prevalent on the networks on which they were deployed at the time they were deployed. A QUIC PN-reordering middlebox would not show any such benefit, and would be correspondingly difficult to sell.
It would not be fair to say that all boxes that observe TCP sequence 
numbers also interpret TCP options (or any other field used by the 
protocol). My point is that we shouldn’t now “fear” everything, and then 
suspect that evil may come form this.
> (3) The time to "path interference decay" for the TCP sequence number was years. Yes, things move more quickly now (indeed, as evidenced by experience with GUIC), but unless we intend not to deploy QUIC version 2 rapidly on the heels of QUIC version 1, I would submit that there's still time to revise everything not in the invariants. (And, indeed, if we do *not* intend to deploy QUIC version 2 rapidly on the heels of QUIC version 1, i.e., not until the "path interference decay" time, then this entire exercise is academic and we can all go home, because the version negotiation mechanism will ossify, greasing or not.)
>
> I think we need to take a step back and take a more systematic view toward ossification prevention.
>
> Greasing, in the TLS sense, refers to not allowing extensibility codepoints to have a single value or set of values that can be used for traffic classification and/or bad traffic rejection by a naive device on the path. This is useful when you're trying to keep parts of the codepoint space available for future use, but the design of QUIC is such that the set of codepoints *in the wire image* is completely determined by the negotiated version; i.e., adding a new packet type to the QUIC long header would require a new version. Therefore, protecting the version negotiation mechanism itself is necessary and sufficient to prevent the wire image from ossifying.
>
> This points the way to an alternate approach which will free us from having to have the ossification discussion about every single bit in the Version 1 header. Early and meaningful exercise of the version negotiation mechanism, with at least two versions whose wire images have *only* our intended invariants in common, is far superior to greasing the version codepoints as a method to protect the version negotiation mechanism. Greasing is a way to "fake" agility when you don't have any real agility yet -- but we're designing a protocol with real agility, with a version negotiation mechanism based at least in its core operation on GUIC's mechanism -- i.e., on one which we know at least one deployer of the protocol has used successfully multiple times.
>
> Greasing is still useful for fields in the invariants that have static values for codepoints we might want to use in the future -- but the greasing space should cover the whole codepoint space in these cases, since post VN we know which values are grease.
>
> (The PN encryption question is separate. The fundamental question here is "should the path see the PN?"... before Melbourne, the answer was "it doesn't matter because we haven't figured out a scalable way to do that". Now the answer is "probably not the whole PN, but the bottom N bits seem quite useful for maintaining TCP-equivalent measurability for the protocol, with a linear linkability risk / measurement utility tradeoff depending on N." Those N bits ossify only if Version 1 is the only QUIC version for the foreseeable future, or if we put them at the same observable offset in the Version 2 header.)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Brian
>
I think it is entirely possible that a small set of fields in the 
transport header may be usefully ossified to increase the deployability, 
manageability and flexibility across a range of use cases.

Gorry


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Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 09:38:45 +0100
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Cc: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
To: Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>
References: <CABkgnnVyo3MmWtVULiV=FJTnR528qfY8-OmKGWAs0bCvri-a_g@mail.gmail.com> <1F7FB3B8-A94C-4354-9944-FB09FB8DB68B@trammell.ch> <CABcZeBMbwdwyC9TxxHBLYaZKfNB-FG2wCGjqUZ_mNR-A1R47FA@mail.gmail.com> <9096e5ec-581e-875a-b1dd-bff0b05206fd@huitema.net> <CABkgnnWRQSAufwPss+qf=xAzCwRYeNNH8XLPm3yFaHxOb+ba4g@mail.gmail.com> <BF80500A-6277-45DC-8525-9C3FE138B76D@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <5A7191E0.6010003@erg.abdn.ac.uk> <5214AD93-8376-4B25-922F-AF5551CC2E95@netapp.com> <F990E064-E6F8-41A3-B791-F776C9955E15@nokia.com> <CAGD1bZab0GaZFsHwC+nw3AxxC4VusxMJ6oDanzk3dSDdWKAXdw@mail.gmail.com> <2C515BE8694C6F4B9B6A578BCAC32E2F83BA1443@MBX021-W3-CA-2.exch021.domain.local> <BY2PR15MB07757473DB9788558B902EB5CDF80@BY2PR15MB0775.namprd15.prod.outlook.com> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD861B7F@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> <BY2PR15MB07758F932FBB87047ACB9D9ACDFE0@BY2PR15MB0775.namprd15.prod.outlook.com> <00f301d39e3d$f15bdf40$d4139dc0$@gmail.com> <2B5B329E-C539-40EA-B8E4-A96861141F52@fb.com>
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hi Roberto, all,

(Trimming recipients)

Briefly: this is the approach under development with the IOAM work in =
the IPPM (and other) working groups; please come by if you=E2=80=98d =
like to contribute there.

There are two serious drawbacks of an IOAM-only approach to =
measurability of encrypted transports.

First, they only allow measurement on the granularity of the tunnels =
carrying IOAM traffic. As you point out, sometimes that is exactly what =
you want. Often it isn=E2=80=99t. Requiring an operator to tunnel =
traffic differently in order to be able to get the measurement =
aggregates necessary for a given measurement task runs into a Heisenberg =
problem: you=E2=80=99ve changed the thing you want to measure in trying =
to measure it.

Second, they only measure the treatment of a traffic flow between tunnel =
endpoints. This implies that they're good for intranet diagnostics (of =
aggregates you generally already have) or for diagnostics for tunnel =
services provided to customers (assuming you ship IOAM-capable CPE for =
the customer end; this is indeed one of the reasons to standardize this =
approach). They're bad for diagnosing stuff within an end network =
(between the tunnel end and the endpoint) or for anything interdomain.

IOAM approaches are an important part of the measurement toolkit, but =
they're not a replacement for end-to-end signals for all tasks.

Cheers,

Brian


On 5 Feb 2018, at 08:16, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com> wrote:

> That depends.
> Arguably, all the network can know (or should know) is on the basis of =
a 5-tuple, thus the network could assign sequence numbers based on order =
of arrival of a 5-tuple.
>=20
> However, one could do more useful and/or general things: If the =
intended egress node is known at the ingress point for a packet then, =
when applying the appropriate route, stamp the packet with a sequence =
number on/for that route. At that point you=E2=80=99re able to look at =
reordering across any/all flows within a route. This is a stronger =
ordering guarantee than is necessary, and thus is sufficient for any =
individual flow on that route. In my belief, this would be a superior =
metric for network health detection overall.
>=20
> -=3DR
>=20
> From: Roni Even <ron.even.tlv@gmail.com>
> Date: Sunday, February 4, 2018 at 8:58 PM
> To: Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, "'Roni Even (A)'" =
<roni.even@huawei.com>, 'Piotr Galecki' =
<piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.com>, 'Jana Iyengar' <jri@google.com>, =
"'Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK)'" =
<thomas.fossati@nokia.com>
> Cc: 'Gorry Fairhust' <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>, 'Eric Rescorla' =
<ekr@rtfm.com>, 'Christian Huitema' <huitema@huitema.net>, "'Eggert, =
Lars'" <lars@netapp.com>, 'Brian Trammell' <ietf@trammell.ch>, 'Mirja =
K=C3=BChlewind' <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, 'QUIC WG' =
<quic@ietf.org>, 'Martin Thomson' <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
> Subject: RE: Packet number encryption
>=20
> Does not it mean that the network need to identify packets  that are =
from the same quic connection to make such wrapping?
> Roni
>=20
> From: QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roberto Peon
> Sent: Monday, February 05, 2018 2:38 AM
> To: Roni Even (A); Piotr Galecki; Jana Iyengar; Fossati, Thomas (Nokia =
- GB/Cambridge, UK)
> Cc: Gorry Fairhust; Eric Rescorla; Christian Huitema; Eggert, Lars; =
Brian Trammell; Mirja K=C3=BChlewind; QUIC WG; Martin Thomson
> Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
>=20
> A network could carry whatever protocol it wished to, i.e. by wrapping =
any/all packets on ingress to the network, and then un-wrapping when =
forwarding to another network. This would allow a network to record and =
track whatever it wanted to without placing constraints on layers which =
should be above it.
>=20
> If the network placed a sequence number on incoming packets, it could =
detect reordering across all flows. If it do so on a 5-tuple basis, it =
could detect reordering/duplication/loss across any 5-tuple.
>=20
> -=3DR
> From: Roni Even (A) <roni.even@huawei.com>
> Sent: Saturday, February 3, 2018 11:47:06 PM
> To: Roberto Peon; Piotr Galecki; Jana Iyengar; Fossati, Thomas (Nokia =
- GB/Cambridge, UK)
> Cc: Gorry Fairhust; Eric Rescorla; Mirja K=C3=BChlewind; Eggert, Lars; =
Brian Trammell; Christian Huitema; QUIC WG; Martin Thomson
> Subject: RE: Packet number encryption
>=20
> Hi,
> Network monitoring:
> Networks may always wrap the packet(s) they have received with =
whatever data they wish, and unwrap before forwarding. This can allow =
any network to understand ordering,  loss, etc within its boundaries.
>=20
> RE- so you are saying that we can for example  leverage  RTP and =
define RTP payload for QUIC that will carry QUIC packets, we will just =
need to resolve the MTU size.
> Roni
>=20
>=20
> From: QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Roberto Peon
> Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2018 8:38 PM
> To: Piotr Galecki; Jana Iyengar; Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - =
GB/Cambridge, UK)
> Cc: Gorry Fairhust; Eric Rescorla; Mirja K=C3=BChlewind; Eggert, Lars; =
Brian Trammell; Christian Huitema; QUIC WG; Martin Thomson
> Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
>=20
> Ossification:
> In the past tcp middleboxes expected in-order, monotonically =
increasing offsets and tried to fix reordering before forwarding. This =
middlebox behavior, predicated on observable flows, prevented deployment =
of things which would have made tcp more efficient.
>=20
>  This is the kind of non-theoretical ossification that drove the =
creation of QUIC in the first place.
>=20
> Network monitoring:
> Networks may always wrap the packet(s) they have received with =
whatever data they wish, and unwrap before forwarding. This can allow =
any network to understand ordering,  loss, etc within its boundaries.
>=20
> Debugging:
> Debugging of flows can still happen for flows that wish to be =
debugged-- the QUIC connection's key material(s) can be shared manually =
and used by the debugging tool. This is how one debugs http2, https, =
etc. already today.
>=20
> -=3DR
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Piotr Galecki <piotr_galecki@affirmednetworks.com>
> Date: 2/2/18 7:00 PM (GMT-08:00)
> To: Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>, "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - =
GB/Cambridge, UK)" <thomas.fossati@nokia.com>
> Cc: Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>, Eric Rescorla =
<ekr@rtfm.com>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, "Eggert, Lars" =
<lars@netapp.com>, Brian Trammell <ietf@trammell.ch>, Mirja K=C3=BChlewind=
 <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Martin =
Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
> Subject: RE: Packet number encryption
>=20
> What is the group=E2=80=99s proposal for allowing network monitoring =
tools to detect packet retransmission or packet reordering ?
> These metrics are pretty straightforward to measure for TCP flows.
> Tools like Wireshark can analyze packets and spot issues.
> How can the network tools perform this kind of measurements for QUIC =
flows if PN field is encrypted?
>=20
>=20
> From: QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jana Iyengar
> Sent: Friday, February 02, 2018 9:31 PM
> To: Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK) =
<thomas.fossati@nokia.com>
> Cc: Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>; Eric Rescorla =
<ekr@rtfm.com>; Mirja K=C3=BChlewind <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>; =
Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>; Brian Trammell =
<ietf@trammell.ch>; Eggert, Lars <lars@netapp.com>; QUIC WG =
<quic@ietf.org>; Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
>=20
> A few points as I catch up on this thread.
>=20
> First, I'll remind folks that QUIC is an encrypted transport. I say =
this because the cost of this operation is trivial in the context of =
encrypting every packet. The cost is borne at the servers and not at =
middleboxes, so the additional crypto cost is basically trivial.
>=20
> Second, this simplifies and increases robustness of implementation. =
Avoiding random PN jumps, as Kazuho points out, makes special-casing of =
code unnecessary. Special code that is exercised occasionally is a =
strong bug attractor, and I would strongly argue for as few of those as =
possible in implementation.
>=20
> Third, yes, ossification is a real concern. A simple example: using =
increasing packet numbers as a signature for detecting QUIC. Even if you =
argue against this example, there are innovative ways in which =
ossification will happen. This is based on a true story: We had no idea =
how GQUIC's flags field could get ossified, the value that was being =
used commonly became used as a signature for QUIC traffic (see Section =
7.5 in the SIGCOMM QUIC paper).
>=20
> There's a win here in terms of implementation complexity and several =
implementers have said so. There's a win in terms of ossification and =
our experience says so. There's a potential loss of manageability, in =
being able to detect reordering. This is the trade-off, and I am still =
in favor of encrypting packet numbers.
>=20
> On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 7:32 AM, Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, =
UK) <thomas.fossati@nokia.com> wrote:
> On 31/01/2018, 10:06, "QUIC on behalf of Eggert, Lars" =
<quic-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of lars@netapp.com> wrote:
> > On 2018-1-31, at 10:52, Gorry Fairhurst <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk> =
wrote:
> > > +1 - Simply: This *is* complicated and seems to add little.
> >
> > So as an implementor (chair hat off), this adds very little to the
> > overall complexity of the protocol.
>=20
> This doesn't sound great.  It's a bit like saying that adding the =
Higgs
> mechanism to the standard model's lagrangian doesn't make it much more
> complicate :-)  (*)
>=20
> More seriously though, I'd like to point out that it is not just about
> implementation complexity, it's also the energy cost per packet that =
is
> quite crucial.  I haven't done the math but ISTM that bringing in
> another batch of non-optional crypto computation on a per packet basis
> is not going to move the needle in the right direction for stacks that
> run on low power (IoT).
>=20
> This is not a catastrophe - we have CoAP and a (D)TLS profile - but
> neither it's ideal, since cutting off the small things from the wider
> ecosystem creates an artificial gap which then will need a middlebox =
to
> bridge.  (Sure, we have specified the behaviour of a similar box
> already, but it'd be really better if the extra translation logic =
could
> be avoided in the first place.)
>=20
> I guess what I'm saying is that PN encryption being a core mechanism
> that can't be negotiated at handshake time reduces our ability to =
later
> profile QUIC for the IoT, which would be a bit unlucky.
>=20
> So the question is: would it be possible to make this property a
> configurable knob instead?
>=20
> (*) =
https://www.symmetrymagazine.org/article/the-deconstructed-standard-model-=
equation
>=20
>=20

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From: "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>
To: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Doodle poll for Feb 2018 remote interop day
Thread-Topic: Doodle poll for Feb 2018 remote interop day
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Hi,

Thu, Mar 1, is the final choice.

I have started a wiki page for the 4th implementation draft. I think we =
agreed in Melbourne to mostly go to QUIC -09 drafts and TLS1.3 draft-23, =
and that's what's on that page. Patrick and others wanted to add some =
HTTP things to the list, please do that.

I'll also make a new tab in the interop spreadsheet.

Lars

> On 2018-1-28, at 3:23, Eggert, Lars <lars@netapp.com> wrote:
>=20
> At the moment, it looks like Thu, Mar 1. Please respond soon, I'll =
pick a date by the end of the coming week.
>=20
> Lars
>=20
>> On 2018-1-25, at 15:33, Eggert, Lars <lars@netapp.com> wrote:
>>=20
>> Please indicate your availability, if you have a stack you wish to =
test: https://doodle.com/poll/ee4gueyfve3azpqn
>>=20
>> (This will be a remote interop day. Next physical one will be =
Hackathon in London.)
>>=20
>> Lars
>=20


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From: Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 22:35:31 +0900
Message-ID: <CANatvzzAseF2FxhqNg+6EwqVGioB7v4ez1QNe+KqyAP8-0nS5w@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
To: "Brian Trammell (IETF)" <ietf@trammell.ch>
Cc: Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>, Gorry Fairhurst <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>,  "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, UK)" <thomas.fossati@nokia.com>,  =?UTF-8?Q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>,  "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
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2018-02-05 6:31 GMT+09:00 Brian Trammell (IETF) <ietf@trammell.ch>:
> hi Jana,
>
>> On 3 Feb 2018, at 03:30, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com> wrote:
>>
>> A few points as I catch up on this thread.
>>
>> First, I'll remind folks that QUIC is an encrypted transport. I say this=
 because the cost of this operation is trivial in the context of encrypting=
 every packet. The cost is borne at the servers and not at middleboxes, so =
the additional crypto cost is basically trivial.
>
> After having worked my way through the PR again (and essentially rewritin=
g it from the receiver's point of view, which I believe would be useful tex=
t to have in the final document, should we end up doing this), I buy this.
>
>> Second, this simplifies and increases robustness of implementation. Avoi=
ding random PN jumps, as Kazuho points out, makes special-casing of code un=
necessary. Special code that is exercised occasionally is a strong bug attr=
actor, and I would strongly argue for as few of those as possible in implem=
entation.
>
> Agree completely. Packet number jumps are a bad idea, and there seems to =
be a (not explicitly examined) consensus that attempting to make linkabilit=
y difficult is worth the effort.
>
>> Third, yes, ossification is a real concern. A simple example: using incr=
easing packet numbers as a signature for detecting QUIC. Even if you argue =
against this example, there are innovative ways in which ossification will =
happen. This is based on a true story: We had no idea how GQUIC's flags fie=
ld could get ossified, the value that was being used commonly became used a=
s a signature for QUIC traffic (see Section 7.5 in the SIGCOMM QUIC paper).
>
> There's an overgeneralization of experience from ossification of single s=
tatic fields (as in the TLS greasing and GUIC flags cases) to functions ove=
r the time series of these fields which has not yet been shown to be valid =
IMO in the case of integrity-protected wire images -- will expand on this i=
n my next message, replying to Roberto.
>
>> There's a win here in terms of implementation complexity and several imp=
lementers have said so.
>
> Compared to packet number jumps, absolutely. Compared to the state two re=
vs of the draft ago, it's a *little* more complex but at least it doesn't a=
dd completely new operations at the sender or the receiver.
>
>> There's a win in terms of ossification and our experience says so.
>
> That experience is IMO overgeneralized.
>
>> There's a potential loss of manageability, in being able to detect reord=
ering.
>
> Well, upstream loss and upstream reordering.
>
> As Christian suggested at the start of this thread, if we simultaneously =
add back a signal that would allow on-path loss and reordering detection, t=
hat would make this a usable-information-content-neutral change to the wire=
 image, and everyone could leave the table happy.

+1

There are two parties with different interests. Endpoint developers
want something more straightforward to implement and also is safe from
ossification. Operators want a tool for diagnosis.

In TCP, both parties have used the same signal for their tasks.

In QUIC, we can split the signal into two, which can be tailored for
each use-case.

The split would help the protocol evolve (as fit from endpoint
developers' perspective). At the same time, it could also help
operators, since the signal they use can become more stable or evolve
in a different pace (since the changes to the encrypted part of the
protocol will not affect what the operators will see, or vice-versa).

Note also that even in the current unencrypted form, packet numbers of
QUIC is not as easy to use compared to TCP (from operators' viewpoint)
since the numbers monotonically increase and since ACKs are encrypted.
So there's a chance to make the signal more useful by splitting the
signals. Spin bit is a good example.

> The only problem with this is that the most obvious place to put this sig=
nal -- the four bits we get back from the short header type field (assuming=
 we add the spin bit) aren't really enough to track the loss and reordering=
 patterns we care about with a naive counter.
>
> There are lots of other options in this space (e.g. decide we care about =
latency more than reordering, and that we don't care about loss at all, and=
 use a two-bit spin to protect the latency signal from reordering, and so o=
n), but that seems like a third thread we should start.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Brian
>
>> This is the trade-off, and I am still in favor of encrypting packet numb=
ers.
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 7:32 AM, Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge, U=
K) <thomas.fossati@nokia.com> wrote:
>> On 31/01/2018, 10:06, "QUIC on behalf of Eggert, Lars" <quic-bounces@iet=
f.org on behalf of lars@netapp.com> wrote:
>> > On 2018-1-31, at 10:52, Gorry Fairhurst <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk> wrote:
>> > > +1 - Simply: This *is* complicated and seems to add little.
>> >
>> > So as an implementor (chair hat off), this adds very little to the
>> > overall complexity of the protocol.
>>
>> This doesn't sound great.  It's a bit like saying that adding the Higgs
>> mechanism to the standard model's lagrangian doesn't make it much more
>> complicate :-)  (*)
>>
>> More seriously though, I'd like to point out that it is not just about
>> implementation complexity, it's also the energy cost per packet that is
>> quite crucial.  I haven't done the math but ISTM that bringing in
>> another batch of non-optional crypto computation on a per packet basis
>> is not going to move the needle in the right direction for stacks that
>> run on low power (IoT).
>>
>> This is not a catastrophe - we have CoAP and a (D)TLS profile - but
>> neither it's ideal, since cutting off the small things from the wider
>> ecosystem creates an artificial gap which then will need a middlebox to
>> bridge.  (Sure, we have specified the behaviour of a similar box
>> already, but it'd be really better if the extra translation logic could
>> be avoided in the first place.)
>>
>> I guess what I'm saying is that PN encryption being a core mechanism
>> that can't be negotiated at handshake time reduces our ability to later
>> profile QUIC for the IoT, which would be a bit unlucky.
>>
>> So the question is: would it be possible to make this property a
>> configurable knob instead?
>>
>> (*) https://www.symmetrymagazine.org/article/the-deconstructed-standard-=
model-equation
>>
>>
>



--=20
Kazuho Oku


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From: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 09:04:35 -0500
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Subject: Re: Call for Adoption: Invariants
To: "Brian Trammell (IETF)" <ietf@trammell.ch>
Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Mikkel_Fahn=C3=B8e_J=C3=B8rgensen?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>,  Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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I support adoption of the invariants draft.

On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 3:33 AM, Brian Trammell (IETF) <ietf@trammell.ch>
wrote:

> Hi, all,
>
> I support adoption of the invariants draft.
>
> > On 5 Feb 2018, at 08:51, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen <mikkelfj@gm=
ail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Only concern is when it takes effect since it likely needs adjustments.
>
> I'd presume that invariants is published simultaneously with the version =
1
> spec.
>

>From the perspective of someone intending to deploy draft versions, the
invariants need to be stable, ideally at least in a last call state, sooner
than the version 1 spec, otherwise there's no guarantee a server can
migrate from one version to another.


> > And perhaps a procedure to handle invariant changes since everything
> changes.
>
> Noted, though the point of declaring something an invariant is to say "th=
e
> meaning of this part of the wire image, expressed as a bit offset, will
> never change". You can add constraints to the invariants, but if you thin=
k
> you might remove a constraint, then it's not an invariant by definition.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Brian
>
> > From: QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Mark Nottingham <
> mnot@mnot.net>
> > Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 7:07:45 AM
> > To: QUIC WG
> > Cc: Lars Eggert
> > Subject: Call for Adoption: Invariants
> >
> > At the Melbourne meeting, there was strong support for adopting Martin'=
s
> invariants draft:
> >
> > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thomson-quic-invariants-00
> >
> > Any objections / concerns about doing so? Unless we hear otherwise,
> we'll adopt at the end of the week.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > --
> > Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">I support adoption of the invariants draft.<div class=3D"g=
mail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 3:33 AM, =
Brian Trammell (IETF) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@trammell=
.ch" target=3D"_blank">ietf@trammell.ch</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc sol=
id;padding-left:1ex">Hi, all,<br>
<br>
I support adoption of the invariants draft.<br>
<span class=3D""><br>
&gt; On 5 Feb 2018, at 08:51, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com">mikkelfj@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Only concern is when it takes effect since it likely needs adjustments=
.<br>
<br>
</span>I&#39;d presume that invariants is published simultaneously with the=
 version 1 spec.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>From the perspective o=
f someone intending to deploy draft versions, the invariants need to be sta=
ble, ideally at least in a last call state, sooner than the version 1 spec,=
 otherwise there&#39;s no guarantee a server can migrate from one version t=
o another.<br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<span class=3D""><br>
&gt; And perhaps a procedure to handle invariant changes since everything c=
hanges.<br>
<br>
</span>Noted, though the point of declaring something an invariant is to sa=
y &quot;the meaning of this part of the wire image, expressed as a bit offs=
et, will never change&quot;. You can add constraints to the invariants, but=
 if you think you might remove a constraint, then it&#39;s not an invariant=
 by definition.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
Brian<br>
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
&gt; From: QUIC &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org">quic-bounces@i=
etf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Mark Nottingham &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mnot@mno=
t.net">mnot@mnot.net</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 7:07:45 AM<br>
&gt; To: QUIC WG<br>
&gt; Cc: Lars Eggert<br>
&gt; Subject: Call for Adoption: Invariants<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; At the Melbourne meeting, there was strong support for adopting Martin=
&#39;s invariants draft:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thomson-quic-invariants-0=
0" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>dr=
aft-thomson-quic-invariants-<wbr>00</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Any objections / concerns about doing so? Unless we hear otherwise, we=
&#39;ll adopt at the end of the week.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; --<br>
&gt; Mark Nottingham=C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.mnot.net/" rel=3D"n=
oreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.mnot.net/</a><br>
<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--001a11c14e5e0218a00564778c13--


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From: "Roni Even (A)" <roni.even@huawei.com>
To: "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>
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Subject: RE: Packet number encryption
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From nobody Mon Feb  5 07:09:31 2018
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Subject: Re: Reducing ossification through protocol design (was Re: Packet number encryption)
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Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 16:09:22 +0100
Cc: "Brian Trammell (IETF)" <ietf@trammell.ch>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>
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> Am 05.02.2018 um 09:36 schrieb Gorry Fairhurst <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>:
>=20
> I think it is entirely possible that a small set of fields in the =
transport header may be usefully ossified to increase the deployability, =
manageability and flexibility across a range of use cases.

+1 if a field ossifies that is fully specified in one version and =
indented to be used by the network in a certain way that can be helpful =
for deployment. We really need to make sure however that middleboxes are =
version-aware and basically deploying two or multiple versions at once =
could be the right approach to make sure the version mechanism will be =
usable in future.


From nobody Mon Feb  5 08:39:41 2018
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From: "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>
To: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Reducing ossification through protocol design (was Re: Packet number encryption)
Thread-Topic: Reducing ossification through protocol design (was Re: Packet number encryption)
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Subject: Re: Reducing ossification through protocol design (was Re: Packet number encryption)
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If that helps I=E2=80=99m all in for that!

> Am 05.02.2018 um 17:39 schrieb Salz, Rich <rsalz@akamai.com>:
>=20
>> I think it is entirely possible that a small set of fields in the =
transport header may be usefully ossified to increase the deployability, =
manageability and flexibility across a range of use cases.
>=20
> Then we should use a word besides ossified, which at this point has =
entirely negative connotations.  Perhaps =E2=80=9Cfrozen=E2=80=9D?
>=20


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To: Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>, "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>
CC: "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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From: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
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Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 08:18:10 -1000
Cc: "Brian Trammell (IETF)" <ietf@trammell.ch>, Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>,  =?utf-8?Q?Mikkel_Fahn=C3=B8e_J=C3=B8rgensen?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
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To: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>
Subject: Re: Call for Adoption: Invariants
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Yes, invariants are useful, and the draft too.

Take the example of the omit CID bit in the short header. If it were version=
 dependent, you could not understand it without first retrieving the connect=
ion context to find which version is used. But to do that you need to parse t=
he CID, so you need to know whether it is present.

That said, what about the 17 bytes CID PR?

-- Christian Huitema=20

> On Feb 5, 2018, at 4:04 AM, Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com> wrote:
>=20
> I support adoption of the invariants draft.
>=20
>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 3:33 AM, Brian Trammell (IETF) <ietf@trammell.ch> w=
rote:
>> Hi, all,
>>=20
>> I support adoption of the invariants draft.
>>=20
>> > On 5 Feb 2018, at 08:51, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen <mikkelfj@gm=
ail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Only concern is when it takes effect since it likely needs adjustments.=

>>=20
>> I'd presume that invariants is published simultaneously with the version 1=
 spec.
>=20
> =46rom the perspective of someone intending to deploy draft versions, the i=
nvariants need to be stable, ideally at least in a last call state, sooner t=
han the version 1 spec, otherwise there's no guarantee a server can migrate f=
rom one version to another.
>=20
>>=20
>> > And perhaps a procedure to handle invariant changes since everything ch=
anges.
>>=20
>> Noted, though the point of declaring something an invariant is to say "th=
e meaning of this part of the wire image, expressed as a bit offset, will ne=
ver change". You can add constraints to the invariants, but if you think you=
 might remove a constraint, then it's not an invariant by definition.
>>=20
>> Cheers,
>>=20
>> Brian
>>=20
>> > From: QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Mark Nottingham <mnot@m=
not.net>
>> > Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 7:07:45 AM
>> > To: QUIC WG
>> > Cc: Lars Eggert
>> > Subject: Call for Adoption: Invariants
>> >
>> > At the Melbourne meeting, there was strong support for adopting Martin'=
s invariants draft:
>> >
>> > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thomson-quic-invariants-00
>> >
>> > Any objections / concerns about doing so? Unless we hear otherwise, we'=
ll adopt at the end of the week.
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> >
>> > --
>> > Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/
>>=20
>=20

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto">Yes, invariants are useful, and the draft t=
oo.<div><br></div><div>Take the example of the omit CID bit in the short hea=
der. If it were version dependent, you could not understand it without first=
 retrieving the connection context to find which version is used. But to do t=
hat you need to parse the CID, so you need to know whether it is present.</d=
iv><div><br></div><div>That said, what about the 17 bytes CID PR?<br><br><di=
v id=3D"AppleMailSignature">-- Christian Huitema&nbsp;</div><div><br>On Feb 5=
, 2018, at 4:04 AM, Ian Swett &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ianswett@google.com">ian=
swett@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>=
<div dir=3D"ltr">I support adoption of the invariants draft.<div class=3D"gm=
ail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 3:33 AM, Br=
ian Trammell (IETF) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@trammell.ch=
" target=3D"_blank">ietf@trammell.ch</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pa=
dding-left:1ex">Hi, all,<br>
<br>
I support adoption of the invariants draft.<br>
<span class=3D""><br>
&gt; On 5 Feb 2018, at 08:51, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com">mikkelfj@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Only concern is when it takes effect since it likely needs adjustments.=
<br>
<br>
</span>I'd presume that invariants is published simultaneously with the vers=
ion 1 spec.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>=46rom the perspective of so=
meone intending to deploy draft versions, the invariants need to be stable, i=
deally at least in a last call state, sooner than the version 1 spec, otherw=
ise there's no guarantee a server can migrate from one version to another.<b=
r></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0=
 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<span class=3D""><br>
&gt; And perhaps a procedure to handle invariant changes since everything ch=
anges.<br>
<br>
</span>Noted, though the point of declaring something an invariant is to say=
 "the meaning of this part of the wire image, expressed as a bit offset, wil=
l never change". You can add constraints to the invariants, but if you think=
 you might remove a constraint, then it's not an invariant by definition.<br=
>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
Brian<br>
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
&gt; From: QUIC &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org">quic-bounces@ie=
tf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Mark Nottingham &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mnot@mnot.=
net">mnot@mnot.net</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 7:07:45 AM<br>
&gt; To: QUIC WG<br>
&gt; Cc: Lars Eggert<br>
&gt; Subject: Call for Adoption: Invariants<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; At the Melbourne meeting, there was strong support for adopting Martin'=
s invariants draft:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thomson-quic-invariants-00=
" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>draf=
t-thomson-quic-invariants-<wbr>00</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Any objections / concerns about doing so? Unless we hear otherwise, we'=
ll adopt at the end of the week.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; --<br>
&gt; Mark Nottingham&nbsp; &nbsp;<a href=3D"https://www.mnot.net/" rel=3D"no=
referrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.mnot.net/</a><br>
<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>
</div></blockquote></div></body></html>=

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To: "Roni Even (A)" <roni.even@huawei.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>
CC: Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>
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From: Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>
To: "Brian Trammell (IETF)" <ietf@trammell.ch>, =?utf-8?B?TWlra2VsIEZhaG7DuGUgSsO4cmdlbnNlbg==?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>
CC: Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Call for Adoption: Invariants
Thread-Topic: Call for Adoption: Invariants
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Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 19:00:53 +0000
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From: Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>
To: =?utf-8?B?TWlyamEgS8O8aGxld2luZA==?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>
CC: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Reducing ossification through protocol design (was Re: Packet number encryption)
Thread-Topic: Reducing ossification through protocol design (was Re: Packet number encryption)
Thread-Index: AQHTnf+NlUqsX1h6U0uiVsf3NVQgAaOVfOMAgABtuACAABkzgIAAAO0AgAAm2fA=
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 19:02:06 +0000
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References: <CABkgnnVyo3MmWtVULiV=FJTnR528qfY8-OmKGWAs0bCvri-a_g@mail.gmail.com> <1F7FB3B8-A94C-4354-9944-FB09FB8DB68B@trammell.ch> <CABcZeBMbwdwyC9TxxHBLYaZKfNB-FG2wCGjqUZ_mNR-A1R47FA@mail.gmail.com> <9096e5ec-581e-875a-b1dd-bff0b05206fd@huitema.net> <CABkgnnWRQSAufwPss+qf=xAzCwRYeNNH8XLPm3yFaHxOb+ba4g@mail.gmail.com> <BF80500A-6277-45DC-8525-9C3FE138B76D@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <5A7191E0.6010003@erg.abdn.ac.uk> <5214AD93-8376-4B25-922F-AF5551CC2E95@netapp.com> <F990E064-E6F8-41A3-B791-F776C9955E15@nokia.com> <CAGD1bZab0GaZFsHwC+nw3AxxC4VusxMJ6oDanzk3dSDdWKAXdw@mail.gmail.com> <2C515BE8694C6F4B9B6A578BCAC32E2F83BA1443@MBX021-W3-CA-2.exch021.domain.local> <BY2PR15MB07757473DB9788558B902EB5CDF80@BY2PR15MB0775.namprd15.prod.outlook.com> <F9D94BFE-3DAE-493D-BC06-F88B417C70F4@trammell.ch> <5A781798.6010101@erg.abdn.ac.uk> <F2C2559B-CA8B-4399-B29E-FD6A01A47F70@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <6D4A2F58-F13A-46AB-80A3-E356DDE15A0F@akamai.com> <5FBE1ABB-C8CD-47BF-BEB7-792864A4BEE4@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
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From: Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>
To: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
CC: Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>
Subject: RE: Call for Adoption: QCRAM
Thread-Topic: Call for Adoption: QCRAM
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I support adoption -- it's a useful starting point from which we can discus=
s what elements of other proposals are worth lifting into this model.

-----Original Message-----
From: QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mark Nottingham
Sent: Sunday, February 4, 2018 10:08 PM
To: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
Cc: Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>
Subject: Call for Adoption: QCRAM

In Melbourne, there was strong support (with a small amount of pushback whi=
ch was discussed) for adopting QCRAM:

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-krasic-quic-qcram-04

Any objections / concerns about doing so? Unless we hear otherwise, we'll a=
dopt at the end of the week.

Cheers,

--
Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/


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From: Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>
To: Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>, "Brian Trammell (IETF)" <ietf@trammell.ch>, =?utf-8?B?TWlra2VsIEZhaG7DuGUgSsO4cmdlbnNlbg==?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>
CC: Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Call for Adoption: Invariants
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From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mikkel_Fahn=F8e_J=F8rgensen?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>
To: Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>, "Brian Trammell (IETF)" <ietf@trammell.ch>
CC: Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Call for Adoption: Invariants
Thread-Topic: Call for Adoption: Invariants
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It could be called QUID ...

________________________________
From: Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 8:00:53 PM
To: Brian Trammell (IETF); Mikkel Fahn=F8e J=F8rgensen
Cc: Lars Eggert; Mark Nottingham; QUIC WG
Subject: RE: Call for Adoption: Invariants

I support adoption.  The way to change the invariants will be to mint a new=
 protocol, and not claim that your new protocol is a version of QUIC.  If i=
t happens to be startlingly similar, all well and good.

-----Original Message-----
From: QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian Trammell (IETF=
)
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 12:34 AM
To: Mikkel Fahn=F8e J=F8rgensen <mikkelfj@gmail.com>
Cc: Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>; Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>; QUIC WG=
 <quic@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Call for Adoption: Invariants

Hi, all,

I support adoption of the invariants draft.

> On 5 Feb 2018, at 08:51, Mikkel Fahn=F8e J=F8rgensen <mikkelfj@gmail.com>=
 wrote:
>
> Only concern is when it takes effect since it likely needs adjustments.

I'd presume that invariants is published simultaneously with the version 1 =
spec.

> And perhaps a procedure to handle invariant changes since everything chan=
ges.

Noted, though the point of declaring something an invariant is to say "the =
meaning of this part of the wire image, expressed as a bit offset, will nev=
er change". You can add constraints to the invariants, but if you think you=
 might remove a constraint, then it's not an invariant by definition.

Cheers,

Brian

> From: QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Mark Nottingham <mnot@mno=
t.net>
> Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 7:07:45 AM
> To: QUIC WG
> Cc: Lars Eggert
> Subject: Call for Adoption: Invariants
>
> At the Melbourne meeting, there was strong support for adopting Martin's =
invariants draft:
>
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thomson-quic-invariants-00
>
> Any objections / concerns about doing so? Unless we hear otherwise, we'll=
 adopt at the end of the week.
>
> Cheers,
>
> --
> Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/


--_000_DB6PR10MB176682C4EC84D225E08C5A6BACFE0DB6PR10MB1766EURP_
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ganization"><span itemprop=3D"name"></span></span>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"direction:ltr">It could be called QUID ...</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"x_acompli_signature"></div>
</div>
</div>
<hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id=3D"x_divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" =
color=3D"#000000" style=3D"font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> Mike Bishop &lt;mbi=
shop@evequefou.be&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 5, 2018 8:00:53 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Brian Trammell (IETF); Mikkel Fahn=F8e J=F8rgensen<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Lars Eggert; Mark Nottingham; QUIC WG<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Call for Adoption: Invariants</font>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
</div>
<font size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;">
<div class=3D"PlainText">I support adoption.&nbsp; The way to change the in=
variants will be to mint a new protocol, and not claim that your new protoc=
ol is a version of QUIC.&nbsp; If it happens to be startlingly similar, all=
 well and good.<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: QUIC [<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:quic-bounces@ie=
tf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Brian Trammell (IETF)<br>
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 12:34 AM<br>
To: Mikkel Fahn=F8e J=F8rgensen &lt;mikkelfj@gmail.com&gt;<br>
Cc: Lars Eggert &lt;lars@eggert.org&gt;; Mark Nottingham &lt;mnot@mnot.net&=
gt;; QUIC WG &lt;quic@ietf.org&gt;<br>
Subject: Re: Call for Adoption: Invariants<br>
<br>
Hi, all,<br>
<br>
I support adoption of the invariants draft.<br>
<br>
&gt; On 5 Feb 2018, at 08:51, Mikkel Fahn=F8e J=F8rgensen &lt;mikkelfj@gmai=
l.com&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Only concern is when it takes effect since it likely needs adjustments=
.<br>
<br>
I'd presume that invariants is published simultaneously with the version 1 =
spec.<br>
<br>
&gt; And perhaps a procedure to handle invariant changes since everything c=
hanges.<br>
<br>
Noted, though the point of declaring something an invariant is to say &quot=
;the meaning of this part of the wire image, expressed as a bit offset, wil=
l never change&quot;. You can add constraints to the invariants, but if you=
 think you might remove a constraint, then
 it's not an invariant by definition.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
Brian<br>
<br>
&gt; From: QUIC &lt;quic-bounces@ietf.org&gt; on behalf of Mark Nottingham =
&lt;mnot@mnot.net&gt;<br>
&gt; Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 7:07:45 AM<br>
&gt; To: QUIC WG<br>
&gt; Cc: Lars Eggert<br>
&gt; Subject: Call for Adoption: Invariants<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; At the Melbourne meeting, there was strong support for adopting Martin=
's invariants draft:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thomson-quic-invariants-0=
0">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thomson-quic-invariants-00</a><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Any objections / concerns about doing so? Unless we hear otherwise, we=
'll adopt at the end of the week.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; --<br>
&gt; Mark Nottingham&nbsp;&nbsp; <a href=3D"https://www.mnot.net/">https://=
www.mnot.net/</a><br>
<br>
</div>
</span></font>
</body>
</html>

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From: Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>
To: Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>, "QUIC WG" <quic@ietf.org>
CC: Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>
Subject: Re: Call for Adoption: QCRAM
Thread-Topic: Call for Adoption: QCRAM
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Subject: Re: Call for Adoption: QCRAM
To: Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>
Cc: Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>
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+1 for adoption.

On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 11:05 AM, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com> wrote:

> Agreed.
> Supported.
> -=R
>
> On 2/5/18, 11:04 AM, "QUIC on behalf of Mike Bishop" <
> quic-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of mbishop@evequefou.be> wrote:
>
>     I support adoption -- it's a useful starting point from which we can
> discuss what elements of other proposals are worth lifting into this model.
>
>     -----Original Message-----
>     From: QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mark Nottingham
>     Sent: Sunday, February 4, 2018 10:08 PM
>     To: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
>     Cc: Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>
>     Subject: Call for Adoption: QCRAM
>
>     In Melbourne, there was strong support (with a small amount of
> pushback which was discussed) for adopting QCRAM:
>
>     https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__tools.
> ietf.org_html_draft-2Dkrasic-2Dquic-2Dqcram-2D04&d=DwIFAg&
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> 63Xsk6Eqt6jt3_NmshNro0&e=
>
>     Any objections / concerns about doing so? Unless we hear otherwise,
> we'll adopt at the end of the week.
>
>     Cheers,
>
>     --
>     Mark Nottingham   https://urldefense.proofpoint.
> com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.mnot.net_&d=DwIFAg&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=
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>
>
>
>

--001a1142e95c21c6f005647c861e
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<div dir=3D"ltr">+1 for adoption.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 11:05 AM, Roberto Peon <span d=
ir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.com" target=3D"_blank">fenix@fb.c=
om</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Agreed.<br>
Supported.<br>
-=3DR<br>
<span class=3D""><br>
On 2/5/18, 11:04 AM, &quot;QUIC on behalf of Mike Bishop&quot; &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org">quic-bounces@ietf.org</a> on behalf of <a=
 href=3D"mailto:mbishop@evequefou.be">mbishop@evequefou.be</a>&gt; wrote:<b=
r>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I support adoption -- it&#39;s a useful starting point from w=
hich we can discuss what elements of other proposals are worth lifting into=
 this model.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 -----Original Message-----<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 From: QUIC [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org">q=
uic-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Mark Nottingham<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Sent: Sunday, February 4, 2018 10:08 PM<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 To: QUIC WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@ietf.or=
g</a>&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Cc: Lars Eggert &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lars@eggert.org">lars@e=
ggert.org</a>&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Subject: Call for Adoption: QCRAM<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 In Melbourne, there was strong support (with a small amount o=
f pushback which was discussed) for adopting QCRAM:<br>
<br>
</span>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=
=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dkrasic-2Dquic-2Dqcram-2D04&amp;d=
=3DDwIFAg&amp;c=3D5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&amp;r=3DC0sUo-LFNBaYfyoaCsf6TA&amp=
;m=3D9CL2DzRCrvpWRESeqQzeBJWmA5Csgju_t_mAM9Tkrv8&amp;s=3DYUt-etfRURzJAU3Kk3=
Mh-63Xsk6Eqt6jt3_NmshNro0&amp;e=3D" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://urldefense.proofpoint.<wbr>com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.<wbr>ietf.o=
rg_html_draft-2Dkrasic-<wbr>2Dquic-2Dqcram-2D04&amp;d=3DDwIFAg&amp;<wbr>c=
=3D5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&amp;r=3D<wbr>C0sUo-LFNBaYfyoaCsf6TA&amp;m=3D<wbr>=
9CL2DzRCrvpWRESeqQzeBJWmA5Csgj<wbr>u_t_mAM9Tkrv8&amp;s=3DYUt-<wbr>etfRURzJA=
U3Kk3Mh-<wbr>63Xsk6Eqt6jt3_NmshNro0&amp;e=3D</a><br>
<span class=3D""><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Any objections / concerns about doing so? Unless we hear othe=
rwise, we&#39;ll adopt at the end of the week.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Cheers,<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 --<br>
</span>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Mark Nottingham=C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://urldefe=
nse.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.mnot.net_&amp;d=3DDwIFAg&amp;c=
=3D5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&amp;r=3DC0sUo-LFNBaYfyoaCsf6TA&amp;m=3D9CL2DzRCrv=
pWRESeqQzeBJWmA5Csgju_t_mAM9Tkrv8&amp;s=3D9sx1bBh6dd4D4LmaSoWRjQ6mlZzlU_NeP=
bl0kmvnXHE&amp;e=3D" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://urldefens=
e.proofpoint.<wbr>com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.<wbr>mnot.net_&amp;d=3DDwIFA=
g&amp;c=3D<wbr>5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&amp;r=3D<wbr>C0sUo-LFNBaYfyoaCsf6TA&a=
mp;m=3D<wbr>9CL2DzRCrvpWRESeqQzeBJWmA5Csgj<wbr>u_t_mAM9Tkrv8&amp;s=3D<wbr>9=
sx1bBh6dd4D4LmaSoWRjQ6mlZzlU_<wbr>NePbl0kmvnXHE&amp;e=3D</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a1142e95c21c6f005647c861e--


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Subject: Re: Call for Adoption: Invariants
To: =?UTF-8?Q?Mikkel_Fahn=C3=B8e_J=C3=B8rgensen?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>
Cc: Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>, "Brian Trammell (IETF)" <ietf@trammell.ch>,  Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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--001a113e67bc95b78e05647cba5f
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+1 for adoption.

As Ian pointed out, once published, any changes to the invariants will be a
significant uphill task for active deployments. That's the entire point of
having these invariants. I would very much like to publish the invariants
ahead of the rest of the documents, so that active deployment of IETF-QUIC
can start, but that's a matter for a different thread, not this one.

On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 11:05 AM, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen <mikkelf=
j@gmail.com
> wrote:

> It could be called QUID ...
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>
> *Sent:* Monday, February 5, 2018 8:00:53 PM
> *To:* Brian Trammell (IETF); Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen
> *Cc:* Lars Eggert; Mark Nottingham; QUIC WG
> *Subject:* RE: Call for Adoption: Invariants
>
> I support adoption.  The way to change the invariants will be to mint a
> new protocol, and not claim that your new protocol is a version of QUIC.
> If it happens to be startlingly similar, all well and good.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org <quic-bounces@ietf.org>] On
> Behalf Of Brian Trammell (IETF)
> Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 12:34 AM
> To: Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen <mikkelfj@gmail.com>
> Cc: Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>; Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>; QUIC
> WG <quic@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: Call for Adoption: Invariants
>
> Hi, all,
>
> I support adoption of the invariants draft.
>
> > On 5 Feb 2018, at 08:51, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen <mikkelfj@gm=
ail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Only concern is when it takes effect since it likely needs adjustments.
>
> I'd presume that invariants is published simultaneously with the version =
1
> spec.
>
> > And perhaps a procedure to handle invariant changes since everything
> changes.
>
> Noted, though the point of declaring something an invariant is to say "th=
e
> meaning of this part of the wire image, expressed as a bit offset, will
> never change". You can add constraints to the invariants, but if you thin=
k
> you might remove a constraint, then it's not an invariant by definition.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Brian
>
> > From: QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Mark Nottingham <
> mnot@mnot.net>
> > Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 7:07:45 AM
> > To: QUIC WG
> > Cc: Lars Eggert
> > Subject: Call for Adoption: Invariants
> >
> > At the Melbourne meeting, there was strong support for adopting Martin'=
s
> invariants draft:
> >
> > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thomson-quic-invariants-00
> >
> > Any objections / concerns about doing so? Unless we hear otherwise,
> we'll adopt at the end of the week.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > --
> > Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/
>
>

--001a113e67bc95b78e05647cba5f
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">+1 for adoption.<div><br></div><div>As Ian pointed out, on=
ce published, any changes to the invariants will be a significant uphill ta=
sk for active deployments. That&#39;s the entire point of having these inva=
riants. I would very much like to publish the invariants ahead of the rest =
of the documents, so that active deployment of IETF-QUIC can start, but tha=
t&#39;s a matter for a different thread, not this one.</div></div><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 11:=
05 AM, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mikkelfj@gmail.com</a>&gt;</spa=
n> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;b=
order-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div>
<div>
<div id=3D"m_-8315390294978214316x_compose-container" style=3D"direction:lt=
r">
<span><span></span></span>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"direction:ltr">It could be called QUID ...</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"m_-8315390294978214316x_acompli_signature"></div>
</div>
</div>
<hr style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%">
<div id=3D"m_-8315390294978214316x_divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D=
"Calibri, sans-serif" color=3D"#000000" style=3D"font-size:11pt"><b>From:</=
b> Mike Bishop &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbishop@evequefou.be" target=3D"_blank=
">mbishop@evequefou.be</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 5, 2018 8:00:53 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Brian Trammell (IETF); Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Lars Eggert; Mark Nottingham; QUIC WG<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Call for Adoption: Invariants</font>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
</div>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<font size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt">
<div class=3D"m_-8315390294978214316PlainText">I support adoption.=C2=A0 Th=
e way to change the invariants will be to mint a new protocol, and not clai=
m that your new protocol is a version of QUIC.=C2=A0 If it happens to be st=
artlingly similar, all well and good.<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: QUIC [<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">mail=
to:quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Brian Trammell (IETF)<br>
Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 12:34 AM<br>
To: Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.=
com" target=3D"_blank">mikkelfj@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
Cc: Lars Eggert &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lars@eggert.org" target=3D"_blank">la=
rs@eggert.org</a>&gt;; Mark Nottingham &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mnot@mnot.net"=
 target=3D"_blank">mnot@mnot.net</a>&gt;; QUIC WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:qui=
c@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
Subject: Re: Call for Adoption: Invariants<br>
<br>
Hi, all,<br>
<br>
I support adoption of the invariants draft.<br>
<br>
&gt; On 5 Feb 2018, at 08:51, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mikkelfj@gmail.com</a>&gt;=
 wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Only concern is when it takes effect since it likely needs adjustments=
.<br>
<br>
I&#39;d presume that invariants is published simultaneously with the versio=
n 1 spec.<br>
<br>
&gt; And perhaps a procedure to handle invariant changes since everything c=
hanges.<br>
<br>
Noted, though the point of declaring something an invariant is to say &quot=
;the meaning of this part of the wire image, expressed as a bit offset, wil=
l never change&quot;. You can add constraints to the invariants, but if you=
 think you might remove a constraint, then
 it&#39;s not an invariant by definition.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
<br>
Brian<br>
<br>
&gt; From: QUIC &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Mark Nottingham &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:mnot@mnot.net" target=3D"_blank">mnot@mnot.net</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 7:07:45 AM<br>
&gt; To: QUIC WG<br>
&gt; Cc: Lars Eggert<br>
&gt; Subject: Call for Adoption: Invariants<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; At the Melbourne meeting, there was strong support for adopting Martin=
&#39;s invariants draft:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thomson-quic-invariants-0=
0" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/<wbr>draft-thomson-quic-in=
variants-<wbr>00</a><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Any objections / concerns about doing so? Unless we hear otherwise, we=
&#39;ll adopt at the end of the week.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; --<br>
&gt; Mark Nottingham=C2=A0=C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://www.mnot.net/" target=
=3D"_blank">https://www.mnot.net/</a><br>
<br>
</div>
</span></font>
</div></div></div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a113e67bc95b78e05647cba5f--


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From: "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>
To: Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>, =?utf-8?B?TWlra2VsIEZhaG7DuGUgSsO4cmdlbnNlbg==?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>
CC: "Brian Trammell (IETF)" <ietf@trammell.ch>, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>, Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>
Subject: RE: Call for Adoption: Invariants
Thread-Topic: Call for Adoption: Invariants
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From: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
To: "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>, =?utf-8?B?TWlra2VsIEZhaG7DuGUgSsO4cmdlbnNlbg==?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>
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Subject: RE: Call for Adoption: Invariants
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From: Eric Kinnear <ekinnear@apple.com>
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Subject: Re: Call for Adoption: QCRAM
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2018 13:55:10 -0800
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Cc: Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>
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+1 for adoption, I think this is a good starting point for folding in pieces of the other proposals. 

Thanks,
Eric


> On Feb 5, 2018, at 12:01 PM, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com> wrote:
> 
> +1 for adoption.
> 
> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 11:05 AM, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com <mailto:fenix@fb.com>> wrote:
> Agreed.
> Supported.
> -=R
> 
> On 2/5/18, 11:04 AM, "QUIC on behalf of Mike Bishop" <quic-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of mbishop@evequefou.be <mailto:mbishop@evequefou.be>> wrote:
> 
>     I support adoption -- it's a useful starting point from which we can discuss what elements of other proposals are worth lifting into this model.
> 
>     -----Original Message-----
>     From: QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of Mark Nottingham
>     Sent: Sunday, February 4, 2018 10:08 PM
>     To: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org <mailto:quic@ietf.org>>
>     Cc: Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org <mailto:lars@eggert.org>>
>     Subject: Call for Adoption: QCRAM
> 
>     In Melbourne, there was strong support (with a small amount of pushback which was discussed) for adopting QCRAM:
> 
>     https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dkrasic-2Dquic-2Dqcram-2D04&d=DwIFAg&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=C0sUo-LFNBaYfyoaCsf6TA&m=9CL2DzRCrvpWRESeqQzeBJWmA5Csgju_t_mAM9Tkrv8&s=YUt-etfRURzJAU3Kk3Mh-63Xsk6Eqt6jt3_NmshNro0&e= <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dkrasic-2Dquic-2Dqcram-2D04&d=DwIFAg&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=C0sUo-LFNBaYfyoaCsf6TA&m=9CL2DzRCrvpWRESeqQzeBJWmA5Csgju_t_mAM9Tkrv8&s=YUt-etfRURzJAU3Kk3Mh-63Xsk6Eqt6jt3_NmshNro0&e=>
> 
>     Any objections / concerns about doing so? Unless we hear otherwise, we'll adopt at the end of the week.
> 
>     Cheers,
> 
>     --
>     Mark Nottingham   https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.mnot.net_&d=DwIFAg&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=C0sUo-LFNBaYfyoaCsf6TA&m=9CL2DzRCrvpWRESeqQzeBJWmA5Csgju_t_mAM9Tkrv8&s=9sx1bBh6dd4D4LmaSoWRjQ6mlZzlU_NePbl0kmvnXHE&e= <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.mnot.net_&d=DwIFAg&c=5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&r=C0sUo-LFNBaYfyoaCsf6TA&m=9CL2DzRCrvpWRESeqQzeBJWmA5Csgju_t_mAM9Tkrv8&s=9sx1bBh6dd4D4LmaSoWRjQ6mlZzlU_NePbl0kmvnXHE&e=>
> 
> 
> 
> 


--Boundary_(ID_YJz5s3FuiJsEx+bHtaqVMQ)
Content-type: text/html; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">+1 =
for adoption, I think this is a good starting point for folding in =
pieces of the other proposals.&nbsp;<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Thanks,</div><div =
class=3D"">Eric</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Feb 5, 2018, at 12:01 PM, Jana Iyengar &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jri@google.com" class=3D"">jri@google.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">+1 for adoption.</div><div =
class=3D"gmail_extra"><br class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, =
Feb 5, 2018 at 11:05 AM, Roberto Peon <span dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">fenix@fb.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc =
solid;padding-left:1ex">Agreed.<br class=3D"">
Supported.<br class=3D"">
-=3DR<br class=3D"">
<span class=3D""><br class=3D"">
On 2/5/18, 11:04 AM, "QUIC on behalf of Mike Bishop" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org" class=3D"">quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>=
 on behalf of <a href=3D"mailto:mbishop@evequefou.be" =
class=3D"">mbishop@evequefou.be</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; I support adoption -- it's a useful starting point from =
which we can discuss what elements of other proposals are worth lifting =
into this model.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; -----Original Message-----<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; From: QUIC [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Mark Nottingham<br =
class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; Sent: Sunday, February 4, 2018 10:08 PM<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; To: QUIC WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">quic@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; Cc: Lars Eggert &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lars@eggert.org" =
class=3D"">lars@eggert.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; Subject: Call for Adoption: QCRAM<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; In Melbourne, there was strong support (with a small =
amount of pushback which was discussed) for adopting QCRAM:<br class=3D"">=

<br class=3D"">
</span>&nbsp; &nbsp; <a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.=
org_html_draft-2Dkrasic-2Dquic-2Dqcram-2D04&amp;d=3DDwIFAg&amp;c=3D5VD0RTt=
NlTh3ycd41b3MUw&amp;r=3DC0sUo-LFNBaYfyoaCsf6TA&amp;m=3D9CL2DzRCrvpWRESeqQz=
eBJWmA5Csgju_t_mAM9Tkrv8&amp;s=3DYUt-etfRURzJAU3Kk3Mh-63Xsk6Eqt6jt3_NmshNr=
o0&amp;e=3D" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.proofpoint.<wbr =
class=3D"">com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.<wbr =
class=3D"">ietf.org_html_draft-2Dkrasic-<wbr =
class=3D"">2Dquic-2Dqcram-2D04&amp;d=3DDwIFAg&amp;<wbr =
class=3D"">c=3D5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&amp;r=3D<wbr =
class=3D"">C0sUo-LFNBaYfyoaCsf6TA&amp;m=3D<wbr =
class=3D"">9CL2DzRCrvpWRESeqQzeBJWmA5Csgj<wbr =
class=3D"">u_t_mAM9Tkrv8&amp;s=3DYUt-<wbr class=3D"">etfRURzJAU3Kk3Mh-<wbr=
 class=3D"">63Xsk6Eqt6jt3_NmshNro0&amp;e=3D</a><br class=3D"">
<span class=3D""><br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; Any objections / concerns about doing so? Unless we hear =
otherwise, we'll adopt at the end of the week.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; Cheers,<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; --<br class=3D"">
</span>&nbsp; &nbsp; Mark Nottingham&nbsp; &nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.mnot.ne=
t_&amp;d=3DDwIFAg&amp;c=3D5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&amp;r=3DC0sUo-LFNBaYfyoaC=
sf6TA&amp;m=3D9CL2DzRCrvpWRESeqQzeBJWmA5Csgju_t_mAM9Tkrv8&amp;s=3D9sx1bBh6=
dd4D4LmaSoWRjQ6mlZzlU_NePbl0kmvnXHE&amp;e=3D" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">https://urldefense.proofpoint.<wbr =
class=3D"">com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.<wbr =
class=3D"">mnot.net_&amp;d=3DDwIFAg&amp;c=3D<wbr =
class=3D"">5VD0RTtNlTh3ycd41b3MUw&amp;r=3D<wbr =
class=3D"">C0sUo-LFNBaYfyoaCsf6TA&amp;m=3D<wbr =
class=3D"">9CL2DzRCrvpWRESeqQzeBJWmA5Csgj<wbr =
class=3D"">u_t_mAM9Tkrv8&amp;s=3D<wbr =
class=3D"">9sx1bBh6dd4D4LmaSoWRjQ6mlZzlU_<wbr =
class=3D"">NePbl0kmvnXHE&amp;e=3D</a><br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
</blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div>
</div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Boundary_(ID_YJz5s3FuiJsEx+bHtaqVMQ)--


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From: Eric Kinnear <ekinnear@apple.com>
Message-id: <3954C408-BAC6-4534-B417-39399C5A3C30@apple.com>
Subject: Re: Call for Adoption: Invariants
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2018 15:04:25 -0800
In-reply-to: <CY4PR21MB013319562763F0DADC138466B6FE0@CY4PR21MB0133.namprd21.prod.outlook.com>
Cc: "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>, =?utf-8?Q?Mikkel_Fahn=C3=B8e_J=C3=B8rgensen?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>, "Brian Trammell (IETF)" <ietf@trammell.ch>, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>, Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>
To: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
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+1 for adoption.=20

Thanks,
Eric


> On Feb 5, 2018, at 1:05 PM, Praveen Balasubramanian =
<pravb@microsoft.com> wrote:
>=20
> +1 for adoption
> =20
> From: QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lubashev, Igor
> Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 12:45 PM
> To: Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>; Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen =
<mikkelfj@gmail.com>
> Cc: Brian Trammell (IETF) <ietf@trammell.ch>; Mark Nottingham =
<mnot@mnot.net>; QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>; Mike Bishop =
<mbishop@evequefou.be>; Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>
> Subject: RE: Call for Adoption: Invariants
> =20
> +1 for the adoption.
> =20
> The adoption does not mean that the draft will be published exactly =
like it is right now.  But, as Jana said, I really hope we can settle =
this one before we settle v1 drafts.
> =20
> From: Jana Iyengar [mailto:jri@google.com <mailto:jri@google.com>]=20
> Sent: Monday, February 05, 2018 3:16 PM
> To: Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen <mikkelfj@gmail.com =
<mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com>>
> Cc: Brian Trammell (IETF) <ietf@trammell.ch =
<mailto:ietf@trammell.ch>>; Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net =
<mailto:mnot@mnot.net>>; QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org <mailto:quic@ietf.org>>; =
Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be <mailto:mbishop@evequefou.be>>; Lars =
Eggert <lars@eggert.org <mailto:lars@eggert.org>>
> Subject: Re: Call for Adoption: Invariants
> =20
> +1 for adoption.
> =20
> As Ian pointed out, once published, any changes to the invariants will =
be a significant uphill task for active deployments. That's the entire =
point of having these invariants. I would very much like to publish the =
invariants ahead of the rest of the documents, so that active deployment =
of IETF-QUIC can start, but that's a matter for a different thread, not =
this one.
> =20
> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 11:05 AM, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen =
<mikkelfj@gmail.com <mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com>> wrote:
> It could be called QUID ...
> =20
> From: Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be <mailto:mbishop@evequefou.be>>
> Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 8:00:53 PM
> To: Brian Trammell (IETF); Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen
> Cc: Lars Eggert; Mark Nottingham; QUIC WG
> Subject: RE: Call for Adoption: Invariants
> =20
> I support adoption.  The way to change the invariants will be to mint =
a new protocol, and not claim that your new protocol is a version of =
QUIC.  If it happens to be startlingly similar, all well and good.
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf Of Brian Trammell (IETF)
> Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 12:34 AM
> To: Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen <mikkelfj@gmail.com =
<mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com>>
> Cc: Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org <mailto:lars@eggert.org>>; Mark =
Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net <mailto:mnot@mnot.net>>; QUIC WG =
<quic@ietf.org <mailto:quic@ietf.org>>
> Subject: Re: Call for Adoption: Invariants
>=20
> Hi, all,
>=20
> I support adoption of the invariants draft.
>=20
> > On 5 Feb 2018, at 08:51, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen =
<mikkelfj@gmail.com <mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >=20
> > Only concern is when it takes effect since it likely needs =
adjustments.
>=20
> I'd presume that invariants is published simultaneously with the =
version 1 spec.
>=20
> > And perhaps a procedure to handle invariant changes since everything =
changes.
>=20
> Noted, though the point of declaring something an invariant is to say =
"the meaning of this part of the wire image, expressed as a bit offset, =
will never change". You can add constraints to the invariants, but if =
you think you might remove a constraint, then it's not an invariant by =
definition.
>=20
> Cheers,
>=20
> Brian
>=20
> > From: QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org>> on =
behalf of Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net <mailto:mnot@mnot.net>>
> > Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 7:07:45 AM
> > To: QUIC WG
> > Cc: Lars Eggert
> > Subject: Call for Adoption: Invariants
> >=20
> > At the Melbourne meeting, there was strong support for adopting =
Martin's invariants draft:
> >=20
> > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thomson-quic-invariants-00 =
<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Furldef=
ense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_draft-2=
Dthomson-2Dquic-2Dinvariants-2D00%26d%3DDwMFaQ%26c%3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZ=
g%26r%3DDjn3bQ5uNJDPM_2skfL3rW1tzcIxyjUZdn_m55KPmlo%26m%3DKX7z_74_SmfCNCCf=
wbvGUrj14akhnYWFa_jYUsJ9b4s%26s%3DbwNKnbE0d5ngNnELVEa6-RApXxOsA3r9ZZJ9OF44=
8lk%26e%3D&data=3D02%7C01%7Cpravb%40microsoft.com%7Ce96f6ed5ccf8441255f808=
d56cd961b8%7Cee3303d7fb734b0c8589bcd847f1c277%7C1%7C0%7C636534603270020761=
&sdata=3Du3ud%2BPLfNMYQAh3bb2aAWKFbDBQlYuX9xFDwIGJHtaw%3D&reserved=3D0>
> >=20
> > Any objections / concerns about doing so? Unless we hear otherwise, =
we'll adopt at the end of the week.
> >=20
> > Cheers,
> >=20
> > --
> > Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/ =
<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Furldef=
ense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__www.mnot.net_%26d%3DDwMFaQ%=
26c%3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg%26r%3DDjn3bQ5uNJDPM_2skfL3rW1tzcIxyjUZdn_m55K=
Pmlo%26m%3DKX7z_74_SmfCNCCfwbvGUrj14akhnYWFa_jYUsJ9b4s%26s%3DWabB1dQco52dW=
khJg2dixu9nSahr_7BJChphDgHF-Cs%26e%3D&data=3D02%7C01%7Cpravb%40microsoft.c=
om%7Ce96f6ed5ccf8441255f808d56cd961b8%7Cee3303d7fb734b0c8589bcd847f1c277%7=
C1%7C0%7C636534603270020761&sdata=3DatLCZwPjicaw%2BuHfeJg5facYPLAW7jK7cYWs=
bRIhRa0%3D&reserved=3D0>

--Boundary_(ID_r85CZaHkWwlmJryzE1593w)
Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">+1 =
for adoption.&nbsp;<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Thanks,</div><div class=3D"">Eric</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Feb 5, 2018, at 1:05 PM, Praveen Balasubramanian &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:pravb@microsoft.com" class=3D"">pravb@microsoft.com</a>&gt;=
 wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">+1 for adoption<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; =
border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: =
3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">From:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>QUIC [<a =
href=3D"mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">On Behalf =
Of<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Lubashev, =
Igor<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Monday, February 5, 2018 =
12:45 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Jana Iyengar &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jri@google.com" class=3D"">jri@google.com</a>&gt;; Mikkel =
Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">mikkelfj@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Brian=
 Trammell (IETF) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@trammell.ch" =
class=3D"">ietf@trammell.ch</a>&gt;; Mark Nottingham &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mnot@mnot.net" class=3D"">mnot@mnot.net</a>&gt;; QUIC WG =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" class=3D"">quic@ietf.org</a>&gt;; =
Mike Bishop &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbishop@evequefou.be" =
class=3D"">mbishop@evequefou.be</a>&gt;; Lars Eggert &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:lars@eggert.org" class=3D"">lars@eggert.org</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>RE: Call for Adoption: =
Invariants<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">+1 for the adoption.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">The adoption does not mean that the =
draft will be published exactly like it is right now.&nbsp; But, as Jana =
said, I really hope we can settle this one before we settle v1 =
drafts.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">From:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Jana Iyengar [<a =
href=3D"mailto:jri@google.com" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">mailto:jri@google.com</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Monday, February 05, 2018 =
3:16 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e =
J=C3=B8rgensen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mikkelfj@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Brian=
 Trammell (IETF) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@trammell.ch" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">ietf@trammell.ch</a>&gt;; =
Mark Nottingham &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mnot@mnot.net" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">mnot@mnot.net</a>&gt;; =
QUIC WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">quic@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Mike =
Bishop &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbishop@evequefou.be" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mbishop@evequefou.be</a>&gt;; Lars Eggert &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:lars@eggert.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">lars@eggert.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: Call for Adoption: =
Invariants<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">+1 for adoption.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">As Ian pointed out, once published, any =
changes to the invariants will be a significant uphill task for active =
deployments. That's the entire point of having these invariants. I would =
very much like to publish the invariants ahead of the rest of the =
documents, so that active deployment of IETF-QUIC can start, but that's =
a matter for a different thread, not this one.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 11:05 AM, Mikkel =
Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mikkelfj@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none none none =
solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); =
padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin: 5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
id=3D"m_-8315390294978214316x_compose-container" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">It could be called QUID ...<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; text-align: =
center;"><hr size=3D"2" width=3D"98%" align=3D"center" =
class=3D""></div><div id=3D"m_-8315390294978214316x_divRplyFwdMsg" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span =
style=3D"" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span style=3D"" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Mike Bishop &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mbishop@evequefou.be" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mbishop@evequefou.be</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Monday, February 5, 2018 =
8:00:53 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Brian Trammell (IETF); =
Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span=
 class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Lars Eggert; Mark =
Nottingham; QUIC WG<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>RE: Call for Adoption: =
Invariants</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">I support =
adoption.&nbsp; The way to change the invariants will be to mint a new =
protocol, and not claim that your new protocol is a version of =
QUIC.&nbsp; If it happens to be startlingly similar, all well and =
good.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">-----Original Message-----<br =
class=3D"">From: QUIC [<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Brian Trammell =
(IETF)<br class=3D"">Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 12:34 AM<br =
class=3D"">To: Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mikkelfj@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">Cc: Lars Eggert =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lars@eggert.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">lars@eggert.org</a>&gt;; =
Mark Nottingham &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mnot@mnot.net" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mnot@mnot.net</a>&gt;; QUIC WG &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">quic@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D"">Subject: Re: Call for Adoption: Invariants<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Hi, all,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I support adoption of =
the invariants draft.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&gt; On 5 Feb 2018, =
at 08:51, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">mikkelfj@gmail.com</a>&gt;=
 wrote:<br class=3D"">&gt;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"">&gt; Only =
concern is when it takes effect since it likely needs adjustments.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">I'd presume that invariants is published =
simultaneously with the version 1 spec.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&gt; =
And perhaps a procedure to handle invariant changes since everything =
changes.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Noted, though the point of =
declaring something an invariant is to say "the meaning of this part of =
the wire image, expressed as a bit offset, will never change". You can =
add constraints to the invariants, but if you think you might remove a =
constraint, then it's not an invariant by definition.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Cheers,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Brian<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&gt; From: QUIC &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Mark Nottingham =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mnot@mnot.net" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">mnot@mnot.net</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D"">&gt; Sent: Monday, February 5, 2018 7:07:45 AM<br =
class=3D"">&gt; To: QUIC WG<br class=3D"">&gt; Cc: Lars Eggert<br =
class=3D"">&gt; Subject: Call for Adoption: Invariants<br =
class=3D"">&gt;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D"">&gt; At the Melbourne meeting, there was strong support for =
adopting Martin's invariants draft:<br class=3D"">&gt;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"">&gt;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2=
Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_=
draft-2Dthomson-2Dquic-2Dinvariants-2D00%26d%3DDwMFaQ%26c%3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F=
4jpN6LZg%26r%3DDjn3bQ5uNJDPM_2skfL3rW1tzcIxyjUZdn_m55KPmlo%26m%3DKX7z_74_S=
mfCNCCfwbvGUrj14akhnYWFa_jYUsJ9b4s%26s%3DbwNKnbE0d5ngNnELVEa6-RApXxOsA3r9Z=
ZJ9OF448lk%26e%3D&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Cpravb%40microsoft.com%7Ce96f6ed5ccf=
8441255f808d56cd961b8%7Cee3303d7fb734b0c8589bcd847f1c277%7C1%7C0%7C6365346=
03270020761&amp;sdata=3Du3ud%2BPLfNMYQAh3bb2aAWKFbDBQlYuX9xFDwIGJHtaw%3D&a=
mp;reserved=3D0" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thomson-quic-invariants-00</a=
><br class=3D"">&gt;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br=
 class=3D"">&gt; Any objections / concerns about doing so? Unless we =
hear otherwise, we'll adopt at the end of the week.<br =
class=3D"">&gt;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D"">&gt; Cheers,<br class=3D"">&gt;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"">&gt; --<br =
class=3D"">&gt; Mark Nottingham&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2=
Furldefense.proofpoint.com%2Fv2%2Furl%3Fu%3Dhttps-3A__www.mnot.net_%26d%3D=
DwMFaQ%26c%3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg%26r%3DDjn3bQ5uNJDPM_2skfL3rW1tzcIxyjUZ=
dn_m55KPmlo%26m%3DKX7z_74_SmfCNCCfwbvGUrj14akhnYWFa_jYUsJ9b4s%26s%3DWabB1d=
Qco52dWkhJg2dixu9nSahr_7BJChphDgHF-Cs%26e%3D&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Cpravb%40=
microsoft.com%7Ce96f6ed5ccf8441255f808d56cd961b8%7Cee3303d7fb734b0c8589bcd=
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te></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
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From: Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 15:32:27 -0800
Message-ID: <CAGD1bZaxrqzdkk0wxRaULwOTgg6wnrSrXNBK31s4uxdozaACBA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
To: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
Cc: "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>, "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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--001a114ecd54a6a64405647f7904
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
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Praveen,

That was precisely my point about the ecosystem evolving. Now that we have
the ability to classify flows, various things have been built around being
able to tell TCP flows. This obviously has benefits as you point out, but
the downside is that that I can't get good network utilization with a
single flow. I understand the scaling point, but speaking of common cases,
any server in the wild is usually serving a large number of connections at
moderate speeds, not a single one at 25-35 Gbps... which makes that sort of
scaling less exciting than in a microbenchmark.

FWIW, the other downside of ECMP is that multipath transport doesn't work
-- you need to hash on something else besides the 4-tuple. (We had to work
around this in Google's deployment of connection migration.)

I'll disagree with your point about reordering being the uncommon case.
While that's true today, this is again an expectation that the network
works hard to maintain, though the ecosystem and what we expect as "usual"
would be quite different had we not built TCP's requirements into the
network. There's nothing wrong with having n-modal latencies... we can
engineer around that. Any sensible load distribution scheme within the
network will give you increased variance but it should limit the worst-case
latency. You'd perhaps agree that that's a net win.

This was an example of how exposing packet number or not can have long term
ecosystem effects. My point was about the fact that exposing can cause
ossification.

- jana

On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 9:24 AM, Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.co=
m
> wrote:

> >> This was definitely true for implementations of TCP, but that is TCP's
> problem, not the network's
>
> Flow classification happens through the network and also on the end host
> with RSS where a flow is mapped to a core. This allows for building high
> performance receive processing that could be lock free for the most part.
> The only downside of ECMP on the network and RSS on the CPU is that a
> single flow will not take multiple paths or get processed on more than on=
e
> core. Windows on server machines today can saturate 25-35 Gbps for a sing=
le
> TCP connection before being CPU limited. This is a  reasonable trade off
> because I don=E2=80=99t know of cases where a single flow is driving more=
 than that
> amount of traffic. Assumptions about how flows get classified help make f=
or
> more efficient processing. They also lead to consistent latency. You do n=
ot
> want the traffic to take a bi-modal or N-modal paths (on the network or t=
he
> host) to being processed because the fluctuations in latency will hurt th=
e
> workload. I am not arguing for TCP not being resilient to reordering but
> IMO that should be the uncommon case not the common case. With QUIC if
> streams were exposed on the network you could take advantage of stream
> level ECMP and RSS to scale better than TCP but we have chosen to keep th=
e
> 4-tuple (or the 5-tuple) as the flow classifier on the network which is o=
k
> by me since it leads to TCP parity.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> *From:* QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Jana Iyengar
> *Sent:* Sunday, February 4, 2018 8:35 PM
> *To:* Salz, Rich <rsalz@akamai.com>
> *Cc:* Lubashev, Igor <ilubashe@akamai.com>; Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>;
> QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: Packet number encryption
>
>
>
> Privacy-protection can't be a user choice, for the reasons others have
> noted on this thread.
>
>
> That said, my primary argument is for encryption to avoid ossification.
> Not that it matters now, but I'll note that much of GQUIC's original
> motivation for encrypting headers was to avoid ossification.
>
>
>
> I'll reiterate that fields we expose will get ossified and there are
> long-term ecosystem effects to this. Let me illustrate this with precisel=
y
> the packet number field. Middleboxes commonly assume that a TCP flow can
> only handle packets in-order. This assumption comes from the fact that TC=
P
> implementations get poor performance when packets are reordered. This was
> definitely true for implementations of TCP, but that is TCP's problem, no=
t
> the network's. However, almost all load-balancers I know of now will pin
> all packets within a TCP flow to one path, leading to sub-optimal
> performance in the network, and destroying incentives for the endpoints t=
o
> deploy reordering-resilient TCP implementations (even though there are
> plenty of ways of doing this.)
>
>
>
> Exposing QUIC's packet number field (as any field) is likely to have
> similar consequences and a similar ecosystem arc.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 7:51 PM, Salz, Rich <rsalz@akamai.com> wrote:
>
> > Optional security tends to devolve to non-secure.
>
>
>
> That=E2=80=99s a great aphorism.  And sadly all too true.
>
>
>

--001a114ecd54a6a64405647f7904
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Praveen,<div><br></div><div><div style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,=
34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-var=
iant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spaci=
ng:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:=
normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color=
:initial"><div style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;fo=
nt-size:small;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-=
caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-ind=
ent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decora=
tion-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial">That was precisely my poi=
nt about the ecosystem evolving. Now that we have the ability to classify f=
lows, various things have been built around being able to tell TCP flows. T=
his obviously has benefits as you point out, but the downside is that that =
I can&#39;t get good network utilization with a single flow. I understand t=
he scaling point, but s<span style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial=
,sans-serif;font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal=
;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:=
start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0=
px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-dec=
oration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline">peaking of common cases, a=
ny server in the wild is usually serving a large number of connections at m=
oderate speeds, not a single one at 25-35 Gbps... which makes that sort of =
scaling less exciting than in a microbenchmark.</span></div><div style=3D"c=
olor:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small;font-style:=
normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:4=
00;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:no=
ne;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration-style:initial;text-d=
ecoration-color:initial"><span style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:ari=
al,sans-serif;font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:norm=
al;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-alig=
n:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing=
:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-d=
ecoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline"><br></span></div><div st=
yle=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small;fon=
t-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-=
weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tran=
sform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration-style:initia=
l;text-decoration-color:initial"><span style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-fa=
mily:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatu=
res:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;t=
ext-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word=
-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initia=
l;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline">FWIW, the other =
downside of ECMP is that multipath transport doesn&#39;t work -- you need t=
o hash on something else besides the 4-tuple. (We had to work around this i=
n Google&#39;s deployment of connection migration.)</span></div></div></div=
><div><br></div><div>I&#39;ll disagree with your point about reordering bei=
ng the uncommon case. While that&#39;s true today, this is again an expecta=
tion that the network works hard to maintain, though the ecosystem and what=
 we expect as &quot;usual&quot; would be quite different had we not built T=
CP&#39;s requirements into the network. There&#39;s nothing wrong with havi=
ng n-modal latencies... we can engineer around that. Any sensible load dist=
ribution scheme within the network will give you increased variance but it =
should limit the worst-case latency. You&#39;d perhaps agree that that&#39;=
s a net win.<br></div><div><br></div><div>This was an example of how exposi=
ng packet number or not can have long term ecosystem effects. My point was =
about the fact that exposing can cause ossification.</div><div><br></div><d=
iv>- jana</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 9:24 AM, Praveen Balasubramanian <span dir=3D"lt=
r">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pravb@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank">pravb@micro=
soft.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_2080759241172096971WordSection1"><span class=3D"">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&gt;&gt; This was definitely true for implementation=
s of TCP, but that is TCP&#39;s problem, not the network&#39;s<u></u><u></u=
></p>
</span><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Flow classification happens through the netwo=
rk and also on the end host with RSS where a flow is mapped to a core. This=
 allows for building high performance receive processing that could be lock=
 free for the most part. The only downside
 of ECMP on the network and RSS on the CPU is that a single flow will not t=
ake multiple paths or get processed on more than one core. Windows on serve=
r machines today can saturate 25-35 Gbps for a single TCP connection before=
 being CPU limited. This is a =C2=A0reasonable
 trade off because I don=E2=80=99t know of cases where a single flow is dri=
ving more than that amount of traffic. Assumptions about how flows get clas=
sified help make for more efficient processing. They also lead to consisten=
t latency. You do not want the traffic to
 take a bi-modal or N-modal paths (on the network or the host) to being pro=
cessed because the fluctuations in latency will hurt the workload. I am not=
 arguing for TCP not being resilient to reordering but IMO that should be t=
he uncommon case not the common
 case. With QUIC if streams were exposed on the network you could take adva=
ntage of stream level ECMP and RSS to scale better than TCP but we have cho=
sen to keep the 4-tuple (or the 5-tuple) as the flow classifier on the netw=
ork which is ok by me since it leads
 to TCP parity. <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span class=3D""><b>From:</b> QUIC [mailto:<a href=
=3D"mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic-bounces@ietf.org</=
a>] <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Jana Iyengar<br>
</span><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, February 4, 2018 8:35 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Salz, Rich &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rsalz@akamai.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">rsalz@akamai.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Lubashev, Igor &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ilubashe@akamai.com" target=
=3D"_blank">ilubashe@akamai.com</a>&gt;; Roberto Peon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:fenix@fb.com" target=3D"_blank">fenix@fb.com</a>&gt;; QUIC WG &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic@ietf.org</a>&gt;<span clas=
s=3D""><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Packet number encryption<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Privacy-protection can&#39;t be a user choice, for t=
he reasons others have noted on this thread.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><div><d=
iv class=3D"h5">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
That said, my primary argument is for encryption to avoid ossification. Not=
 that it matters now, but I&#39;ll note that much of GQUIC&#39;s original m=
otivation for encrypting headers was to avoid ossification.<u></u><u></u></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I&#39;ll reiterate that fields we expose will get os=
sified and there are long-term ecosystem effects to this. Let me illustrate=
 this with precisely the packet number field. Middleboxes commonly assume t=
hat a TCP flow can only handle packets
 in-order. This assumption comes from the fact that TCP implementations get=
 poor performance when packets are reordered. This was definitely true for =
implementations of TCP, but that is TCP&#39;s problem, not the network&#39;=
s. However, almost all load-balancers I
 know of now will pin all packets within a TCP flow to one path, leading to=
 sub-optimal performance in the network, and destroying incentives for the =
endpoints to deploy reordering-resilient TCP implementations (even though t=
here are plenty of ways of doing
 this.)<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Exposing QUIC&#39;s packet number field (as any fiel=
d) is likely to have similar consequences and a similar ecosystem arc.<u></=
u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div></div></div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 7:51 PM, Salz, Rich &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:rsalz@akamai.com" target=3D"_blank">rsalz@akamai.com</a>&gt; w=
rote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">&gt; Optional security tend=
s to devolve to non-secure.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"m_2080759241172096971m-791487608242578504xmsonormal">=C2=A0<u><=
/u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_2080759241172096971m-791487608242578504xmsonormal">That=E2=80=
=99s a great aphorism.=C2=A0 And sadly all too true.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a114ecd54a6a64405647f7904--


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From: Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 16:30:44 -0800
Message-ID: <CAGD1bZbOAaSBcQw4nVtGuwRunaAW8MYHq9yPxNN6DdKHzt5HtQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
To: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
Cc: "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>, "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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--089e0826ea901cbc9e0564804a52
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I don't think we're converging here, so I'd like to try and encourage us to
move towards it. I have my opinion, but I care more about forward progress
at this point.

There are three designs so far:
1. Packet numbers as is, with random gaps around migration.
2. Packet numbers encrypted, as per Martin's PR.
3. Packet numbers encrypted, plus a small modulo sequence number somewhere.

The concrete ones here are (1) and (2).  I'm listing (3) but am not
inclined to consider it seriously, since it's not concrete enough, (and I
don't want more bits to be spent in the QUIC packet header if that's where
this info goes.)

There are opinions about ossification, privacy, and manageability. I'm not
hearing bloody murder, so for what it's worth, I'd like to stipulate first
that we can all live with the final design, whichever one it is.  If anyone
disagrees, please say so -- I think it'd be useful to hear if there are
folks who think a particular design is fundamentally problematic.

My opinion is still for (2) over (1), but I can live with either.

On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 3:32 PM, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com> wrote:

> Praveen,
>
> That was precisely my point about the ecosystem evolving. Now that we hav=
e
> the ability to classify flows, various things have been built around bein=
g
> able to tell TCP flows. This obviously has benefits as you point out, but
> the downside is that that I can't get good network utilization with a
> single flow. I understand the scaling point, but speaking of common
> cases, any server in the wild is usually serving a large number of
> connections at moderate speeds, not a single one at 25-35 Gbps... which
> makes that sort of scaling less exciting than in a microbenchmark.
>
> FWIW, the other downside of ECMP is that multipath transport doesn't work
> -- you need to hash on something else besides the 4-tuple. (We had to wor=
k
> around this in Google's deployment of connection migration.)
>
> I'll disagree with your point about reordering being the uncommon case.
> While that's true today, this is again an expectation that the network
> works hard to maintain, though the ecosystem and what we expect as "usual=
"
> would be quite different had we not built TCP's requirements into the
> network. There's nothing wrong with having n-modal latencies... we can
> engineer around that. Any sensible load distribution scheme within the
> network will give you increased variance but it should limit the worst-ca=
se
> latency. You'd perhaps agree that that's a net win.
>
> This was an example of how exposing packet number or not can have long
> term ecosystem effects. My point was about the fact that exposing can cau=
se
> ossification.
>
> - jana
>
> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 9:24 AM, Praveen Balasubramanian <
> pravb@microsoft.com> wrote:
>
>> >> This was definitely true for implementations of TCP, but that is TCP'=
s
>> problem, not the network's
>>
>> Flow classification happens through the network and also on the end host
>> with RSS where a flow is mapped to a core. This allows for building high
>> performance receive processing that could be lock free for the most part=
.
>> The only downside of ECMP on the network and RSS on the CPU is that a
>> single flow will not take multiple paths or get processed on more than o=
ne
>> core. Windows on server machines today can saturate 25-35 Gbps for a sin=
gle
>> TCP connection before being CPU limited. This is a  reasonable trade off
>> because I don=E2=80=99t know of cases where a single flow is driving mor=
e than that
>> amount of traffic. Assumptions about how flows get classified help make =
for
>> more efficient processing. They also lead to consistent latency. You do =
not
>> want the traffic to take a bi-modal or N-modal paths (on the network or =
the
>> host) to being processed because the fluctuations in latency will hurt t=
he
>> workload. I am not arguing for TCP not being resilient to reordering but
>> IMO that should be the uncommon case not the common case. With QUIC if
>> streams were exposed on the network you could take advantage of stream
>> level ECMP and RSS to scale better than TCP but we have chosen to keep t=
he
>> 4-tuple (or the 5-tuple) as the flow classifier on the network which is =
ok
>> by me since it leads to TCP parity.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Jana Iyengar
>> *Sent:* Sunday, February 4, 2018 8:35 PM
>> *To:* Salz, Rich <rsalz@akamai.com>
>> *Cc:* Lubashev, Igor <ilubashe@akamai.com>; Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>;
>> QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: Packet number encryption
>>
>>
>>
>> Privacy-protection can't be a user choice, for the reasons others have
>> noted on this thread.
>>
>>
>> That said, my primary argument is for encryption to avoid ossification.
>> Not that it matters now, but I'll note that much of GQUIC's original
>> motivation for encrypting headers was to avoid ossification.
>>
>>
>>
>> I'll reiterate that fields we expose will get ossified and there are
>> long-term ecosystem effects to this. Let me illustrate this with precise=
ly
>> the packet number field. Middleboxes commonly assume that a TCP flow can
>> only handle packets in-order. This assumption comes from the fact that T=
CP
>> implementations get poor performance when packets are reordered. This wa=
s
>> definitely true for implementations of TCP, but that is TCP's problem, n=
ot
>> the network's. However, almost all load-balancers I know of now will pin
>> all packets within a TCP flow to one path, leading to sub-optimal
>> performance in the network, and destroying incentives for the endpoints =
to
>> deploy reordering-resilient TCP implementations (even though there are
>> plenty of ways of doing this.)
>>
>>
>>
>> Exposing QUIC's packet number field (as any field) is likely to have
>> similar consequences and a similar ecosystem arc.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 7:51 PM, Salz, Rich <rsalz@akamai.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Optional security tends to devolve to non-secure.
>>
>>
>>
>> That=E2=80=99s a great aphorism.  And sadly all too true.
>>
>>
>>
>
>

--089e0826ea901cbc9e0564804a52
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">I don&#39;t think we&#39;re converging here, so I&#39;d li=
ke to try and encourage us to move towards it. I have my opinion, but I car=
e more about forward progress at this point.<div><br></div><div>There are t=
hree designs so far:</div><div>1. Packet numbers as is, with random gaps ar=
ound migration.</div><div>2. Packet numbers encrypted, as per Martin&#39;s =
PR.</div><div>3. Packet numbers encrypted, plus a small modulo sequence num=
ber somewhere.</div><div><br></div><div>The concrete ones here are (1) and =
(2).=C2=A0=C2=A0<span style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-s=
erif;font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-v=
ariant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;back=
ground-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration=
-color:initial;float:none;display:inline">I&#39;m listing (3) but am not in=
clined to consider it seriously, since it&#39;s not concrete enough, (and I=
 don&#39;t want more bits to be spent in the QUIC packet header if that&#39=
;s where this info goes.)</span><br><br>There are opinions about ossificati=
on, privacy, and manageability. I&#39;m not hearing bloody murder, so for w=
hat it&#39;s worth, I&#39;d like to stipulate first that we can all live wi=
th the final design, whichever one it is.=C2=A0 If anyone disagrees, please=
 say so -- I think it&#39;d be useful to hear if there are folks who think =
a particular design is fundamentally problematic.</div><div><br></div><div>=
<span style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:s=
mall;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:norm=
al;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;t=
ext-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration-styl=
e:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);f=
loat:none;display:inline">My opinion is still for (2) over (1), but I can l=
ive with either.</span><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 3:32 PM, Jana Iyengar <span di=
r=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jri@google.com" target=3D"_blank">jri@googl=
e.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"l=
tr">Praveen,<div><br></div><div><div style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-fami=
ly:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligature=
s:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;tex=
t-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s=
pacing:0px;text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial"><di=
v style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small=
;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;f=
ont-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-=
transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration-style:in=
itial;text-decoration-color:initial">That was precisely my point about the =
ecosystem evolving. Now that we have the ability to classify flows, various=
 things have been built around being able to tell TCP flows. This obviously=
 has benefits as you point out, but the downside is that that I can&#39;t g=
et good network utilization with a single flow. I understand the scaling po=
int, but s<span style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;f=
ont-size:small;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant=
-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-in=
dent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background=
-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color=
:initial;float:none;display:inline">peaking of common cases, any server in =
the wild is usually serving a large number of connections at moderate speed=
s, not a single one at 25-35 Gbps... which makes that sort of scaling less =
exciting than in a microbenchmark.</span></div><div style=3D"color:rgb(34,3=
4,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-v=
ariant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spa=
cing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-spac=
e:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-col=
or:initial"><span style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif=
;font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;backgrou=
nd-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-col=
or:initial;float:none;display:inline"><br></span></div><div style=3D"color:=
rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small;font-style:norma=
l;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;le=
tter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;wh=
ite-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration-style:initial;text-decora=
tion-color:initial"><span style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;fo=
nt-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:sta=
rt;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;=
background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decora=
tion-color:initial;float:none;display:inline">FWIW, the other downside of E=
CMP is that multipath transport doesn&#39;t work -- you need to hash on som=
ething else besides the 4-tuple. (We had to work around this in Google&#39;=
s deployment of connection migration.)</span></div></div></div><div><br></d=
iv><div>I&#39;ll disagree with your point about reordering being the uncomm=
on case. While that&#39;s true today, this is again an expectation that the=
 network works hard to maintain, though the ecosystem and what we expect as=
 &quot;usual&quot; would be quite different had we not built TCP&#39;s requ=
irements into the network. There&#39;s nothing wrong with having n-modal la=
tencies... we can engineer around that. Any sensible load distribution sche=
me within the network will give you increased variance but it should limit =
the worst-case latency. You&#39;d perhaps agree that that&#39;s a net win.<=
br></div><div><br></div><div>This was an example of how exposing packet num=
ber or not can have long term ecosystem effects. My point was about the fac=
t that exposing can cause ossification.</div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font c=
olor=3D"#888888"><div><br></div><div>- jana</div></font></span></div><div c=
lass=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 9:24 AM, Praveen Balasubramanian <s=
pan dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pravb@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank=
">pravb@microsoft.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1e=
x">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_7095374182116324034m_2080759241172096971WordSection1"><span=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&gt;&gt; This was definitely true for implementation=
s of TCP, but that is TCP&#39;s problem, not the network&#39;s<u></u><u></u=
></p>
</span><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Flow classification happens through the netwo=
rk and also on the end host with RSS where a flow is mapped to a core. This=
 allows for building high performance receive processing that could be lock=
 free for the most part. The only downside
 of ECMP on the network and RSS on the CPU is that a single flow will not t=
ake multiple paths or get processed on more than one core. Windows on serve=
r machines today can saturate 25-35 Gbps for a single TCP connection before=
 being CPU limited. This is a =C2=A0reasonable
 trade off because I don=E2=80=99t know of cases where a single flow is dri=
ving more than that amount of traffic. Assumptions about how flows get clas=
sified help make for more efficient processing. They also lead to consisten=
t latency. You do not want the traffic to
 take a bi-modal or N-modal paths (on the network or the host) to being pro=
cessed because the fluctuations in latency will hurt the workload. I am not=
 arguing for TCP not being resilient to reordering but IMO that should be t=
he uncommon case not the common
 case. With QUIC if streams were exposed on the network you could take adva=
ntage of stream level ECMP and RSS to scale better than TCP but we have cho=
sen to keep the 4-tuple (or the 5-tuple) as the flow classifier on the netw=
ork which is ok by me since it leads
 to TCP parity. <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><b>From:</b> QUIC [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:qu=
ic-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>On Beh=
alf Of
</b>Jana Iyengar<br>
</span><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, February 4, 2018 8:35 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Salz, Rich &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rsalz@akamai.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">rsalz@akamai.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Lubashev, Igor &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ilubashe@akamai.com" target=
=3D"_blank">ilubashe@akamai.com</a>&gt;; Roberto Peon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:fenix@fb.com" target=3D"_blank">fenix@fb.com</a>&gt;; QUIC WG &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic@ietf.org</a>&gt;<span><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Packet number encryption<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Privacy-protection can&#39;t be a user choice, for t=
he reasons others have noted on this thread.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><div><d=
iv class=3D"m_7095374182116324034h5">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
That said, my primary argument is for encryption to avoid ossification. Not=
 that it matters now, but I&#39;ll note that much of GQUIC&#39;s original m=
otivation for encrypting headers was to avoid ossification.<u></u><u></u></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I&#39;ll reiterate that fields we expose will get os=
sified and there are long-term ecosystem effects to this. Let me illustrate=
 this with precisely the packet number field. Middleboxes commonly assume t=
hat a TCP flow can only handle packets
 in-order. This assumption comes from the fact that TCP implementations get=
 poor performance when packets are reordered. This was definitely true for =
implementations of TCP, but that is TCP&#39;s problem, not the network&#39;=
s. However, almost all load-balancers I
 know of now will pin all packets within a TCP flow to one path, leading to=
 sub-optimal performance in the network, and destroying incentives for the =
endpoints to deploy reordering-resilient TCP implementations (even though t=
here are plenty of ways of doing
 this.)<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Exposing QUIC&#39;s packet number field (as any fiel=
d) is likely to have similar consequences and a similar ecosystem arc.<u></=
u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div></div></div><div><div class=3D"m_7095374182116324034h5">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 7:51 PM, Salz, Rich &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:rsalz@akamai.com" target=3D"_blank">rsalz@akamai.com</a>&gt; w=
rote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">&gt; Optional security tend=
s to devolve to non-secure.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"m_7095374182116324034m_2080759241172096971m-791487608242578504x=
msonormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_7095374182116324034m_2080759241172096971m-791487608242578504x=
msonormal">That=E2=80=99s a great aphorism.=C2=A0 And sadly all too true.<u=
></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

--089e0826ea901cbc9e0564804a52--


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From: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 11:41:11 +1100
Message-ID: <CABkgnnV-Cz2+u5+G_K02-PLMzq_Y4wyoTAj8gjpERgBJ7JEO7g@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
To: Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>
Cc: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>, "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>,  "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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It's possible that we could decide to add (3) later if we decided to
take (2) now.

I'd prefer to proceed with (2) and I'm sure that we'll collectively
have more information on what it takes to add bits to the header after
we conclude our discussion on spin bits in London.

There's a fourth option, which involves encryption of just the
high-order bits of the packet number.  It still likely means that we
would need gaps to break linkability, but those gaps could be
relatively small and so could be made unilaterally without all of the
machinery that (1) has.  Of course, that has other implications, such
as the need to expose the size of the packet number (unless we switch
to a little-endian encoding...).


On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 11:30 AM, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com> wrote:
> I don't think we're converging here, so I'd like to try and encourage us =
to
> move towards it. I have my opinion, but I care more about forward progres=
s
> at this point.
>
> There are three designs so far:
> 1. Packet numbers as is, with random gaps around migration.
> 2. Packet numbers encrypted, as per Martin's PR.
> 3. Packet numbers encrypted, plus a small modulo sequence number somewher=
e.
>
> The concrete ones here are (1) and (2).  I'm listing (3) but am not incli=
ned
> to consider it seriously, since it's not concrete enough, (and I don't wa=
nt
> more bits to be spent in the QUIC packet header if that's where this info
> goes.)
>
> There are opinions about ossification, privacy, and manageability. I'm no=
t
> hearing bloody murder, so for what it's worth, I'd like to stipulate firs=
t
> that we can all live with the final design, whichever one it is.  If anyo=
ne
> disagrees, please say so -- I think it'd be useful to hear if there are
> folks who think a particular design is fundamentally problematic.
>
> My opinion is still for (2) over (1), but I can live with either.
>
> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 3:32 PM, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com> wrote:
>>
>> Praveen,
>>
>> That was precisely my point about the ecosystem evolving. Now that we ha=
ve
>> the ability to classify flows, various things have been built around bei=
ng
>> able to tell TCP flows. This obviously has benefits as you point out, bu=
t
>> the downside is that that I can't get good network utilization with a si=
ngle
>> flow. I understand the scaling point, but speaking of common cases, any
>> server in the wild is usually serving a large number of connections at
>> moderate speeds, not a single one at 25-35 Gbps... which makes that sort=
 of
>> scaling less exciting than in a microbenchmark.
>>
>> FWIW, the other downside of ECMP is that multipath transport doesn't wor=
k
>> -- you need to hash on something else besides the 4-tuple. (We had to wo=
rk
>> around this in Google's deployment of connection migration.)
>>
>> I'll disagree with your point about reordering being the uncommon case.
>> While that's true today, this is again an expectation that the network w=
orks
>> hard to maintain, though the ecosystem and what we expect as "usual" wou=
ld
>> be quite different had we not built TCP's requirements into the network.
>> There's nothing wrong with having n-modal latencies... we can engineer
>> around that. Any sensible load distribution scheme within the network wi=
ll
>> give you increased variance but it should limit the worst-case latency.
>> You'd perhaps agree that that's a net win.
>>
>> This was an example of how exposing packet number or not can have long
>> term ecosystem effects. My point was about the fact that exposing can ca=
use
>> ossification.
>>
>> - jana
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 9:24 AM, Praveen Balasubramanian
>> <pravb@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> >> This was definitely true for implementations of TCP, but that is TCP=
's
>>> >> problem, not the network's
>>>
>>> Flow classification happens through the network and also on the end hos=
t
>>> with RSS where a flow is mapped to a core. This allows for building hig=
h
>>> performance receive processing that could be lock free for the most par=
t.
>>> The only downside of ECMP on the network and RSS on the CPU is that a s=
ingle
>>> flow will not take multiple paths or get processed on more than one cor=
e.
>>> Windows on server machines today can saturate 25-35 Gbps for a single T=
CP
>>> connection before being CPU limited. This is a  reasonable trade off be=
cause
>>> I don=E2=80=99t know of cases where a single flow is driving more than =
that amount
>>> of traffic. Assumptions about how flows get classified help make for mo=
re
>>> efficient processing. They also lead to consistent latency. You do not =
want
>>> the traffic to take a bi-modal or N-modal paths (on the network or the =
host)
>>> to being processed because the fluctuations in latency will hurt the
>>> workload. I am not arguing for TCP not being resilient to reordering bu=
t IMO
>>> that should be the uncommon case not the common case. With QUIC if stre=
ams
>>> were exposed on the network you could take advantage of stream level EC=
MP
>>> and RSS to scale better than TCP but we have chosen to keep the 4-tuple=
 (or
>>> the 5-tuple) as the flow classifier on the network which is ok by me si=
nce
>>> it leads to TCP parity.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jana Iyengar
>>> Sent: Sunday, February 4, 2018 8:35 PM
>>> To: Salz, Rich <rsalz@akamai.com>
>>> Cc: Lubashev, Igor <ilubashe@akamai.com>; Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>;
>>> QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
>>> Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Privacy-protection can't be a user choice, for the reasons others have
>>> noted on this thread.
>>>
>>>
>>> That said, my primary argument is for encryption to avoid ossification.
>>> Not that it matters now, but I'll note that much of GQUIC's original
>>> motivation for encrypting headers was to avoid ossification.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'll reiterate that fields we expose will get ossified and there are
>>> long-term ecosystem effects to this. Let me illustrate this with precis=
ely
>>> the packet number field. Middleboxes commonly assume that a TCP flow ca=
n
>>> only handle packets in-order. This assumption comes from the fact that =
TCP
>>> implementations get poor performance when packets are reordered. This w=
as
>>> definitely true for implementations of TCP, but that is TCP's problem, =
not
>>> the network's. However, almost all load-balancers I know of now will pi=
n all
>>> packets within a TCP flow to one path, leading to sub-optimal performan=
ce in
>>> the network, and destroying incentives for the endpoints to deploy
>>> reordering-resilient TCP implementations (even though there are plenty =
of
>>> ways of doing this.)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Exposing QUIC's packet number field (as any field) is likely to have
>>> similar consequences and a similar ecosystem arc.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 7:51 PM, Salz, Rich <rsalz@akamai.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Optional security tends to devolve to non-secure.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> That=E2=80=99s a great aphorism.  And sadly all too true.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>


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From: Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2018 16:49:47 -0800
Message-ID: <CA+9kkMC6A8eDeoCe936UyPGPz529TNxwK3_yuwus=HBGPpyiDQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
To: Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>
Cc: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>, "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>,  "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 4:30 PM, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com> wrote:

> I don't think we're converging here, so I'd like to try and encourage us
> to move towards it. I have my opinion, but I care more about forward
> progress at this point.
>
> There are three designs so far:
> 1. Packet numbers as is, with random gaps around migration.
> 2. Packet numbers encrypted, as per Martin's PR.
> 3. Packet numbers encrypted, plus a small modulo sequence number somewher=
e.
>
> The concrete ones here are (1) and (2).  I'm listing (3) but am not
> inclined to consider it seriously, since it's not concrete enough, (and I
> don't want more bits to be spent in the QUIC packet header if that's wher=
e
> this info goes.)
>
>
If you'll forgive my saying so, evidence suggests that so many of the
concrete aspects of such a proposal (where the bits would live, how many
bits, etc.) would change over the lifetime of a proposal in this WG that
any completely nailed down suggestion might as well be a blank sheet for
all the bearing it would have on the final placement and length.

The question is:  do we wish to expose a small sequence number to assist in
network analysis and management, yes or no?

We can argue over the bike shed color after making the decision to build a
shed; requiring the shed have a color before considering the question seems
less productive to me than just answering the question.

Just my personal opinion, of course.

Ted



> There are opinions about ossification, privacy, and manageability. I'm no=
t
> hearing bloody murder, so for what it's worth, I'd like to stipulate firs=
t
> that we can all live with the final design, whichever one it is.  If anyo=
ne
> disagrees, please say so -- I think it'd be useful to hear if there are
> folks who think a particular design is fundamentally problematic.
>
> My opinion is still for (2) over (1), but I can live with either.
>
> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 3:32 PM, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com> wrote:
>
>> Praveen,
>>
>> That was precisely my point about the ecosystem evolving. Now that we
>> have the ability to classify flows, various things have been built aroun=
d
>> being able to tell TCP flows. This obviously has benefits as you point o=
ut,
>> but the downside is that that I can't get good network utilization with =
a
>> single flow. I understand the scaling point, but speaking of common
>> cases, any server in the wild is usually serving a large number of
>> connections at moderate speeds, not a single one at 25-35 Gbps... which
>> makes that sort of scaling less exciting than in a microbenchmark.
>>
>> FWIW, the other downside of ECMP is that multipath transport doesn't wor=
k
>> -- you need to hash on something else besides the 4-tuple. (We had to wo=
rk
>> around this in Google's deployment of connection migration.)
>>
>> I'll disagree with your point about reordering being the uncommon case.
>> While that's true today, this is again an expectation that the network
>> works hard to maintain, though the ecosystem and what we expect as "usua=
l"
>> would be quite different had we not built TCP's requirements into the
>> network. There's nothing wrong with having n-modal latencies... we can
>> engineer around that. Any sensible load distribution scheme within the
>> network will give you increased variance but it should limit the worst-c=
ase
>> latency. You'd perhaps agree that that's a net win.
>>
>> This was an example of how exposing packet number or not can have long
>> term ecosystem effects. My point was about the fact that exposing can ca=
use
>> ossification.
>>
>> - jana
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 9:24 AM, Praveen Balasubramanian <
>> pravb@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>
>>> >> This was definitely true for implementations of TCP, but that is
>>> TCP's problem, not the network's
>>>
>>> Flow classification happens through the network and also on the end hos=
t
>>> with RSS where a flow is mapped to a core. This allows for building hig=
h
>>> performance receive processing that could be lock free for the most par=
t.
>>> The only downside of ECMP on the network and RSS on the CPU is that a
>>> single flow will not take multiple paths or get processed on more than =
one
>>> core. Windows on server machines today can saturate 25-35 Gbps for a si=
ngle
>>> TCP connection before being CPU limited. This is a  reasonable trade of=
f
>>> because I don=E2=80=99t know of cases where a single flow is driving mo=
re than that
>>> amount of traffic. Assumptions about how flows get classified help make=
 for
>>> more efficient processing. They also lead to consistent latency. You do=
 not
>>> want the traffic to take a bi-modal or N-modal paths (on the network or=
 the
>>> host) to being processed because the fluctuations in latency will hurt =
the
>>> workload. I am not arguing for TCP not being resilient to reordering bu=
t
>>> IMO that should be the uncommon case not the common case. With QUIC if
>>> streams were exposed on the network you could take advantage of stream
>>> level ECMP and RSS to scale better than TCP but we have chosen to keep =
the
>>> 4-tuple (or the 5-tuple) as the flow classifier on the network which is=
 ok
>>> by me since it leads to TCP parity.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Jana Iyengar
>>> *Sent:* Sunday, February 4, 2018 8:35 PM
>>> *To:* Salz, Rich <rsalz@akamai.com>
>>> *Cc:* Lubashev, Igor <ilubashe@akamai.com>; Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>=
;
>>> QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
>>> *Subject:* Re: Packet number encryption
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Privacy-protection can't be a user choice, for the reasons others have
>>> noted on this thread.
>>>
>>>
>>> That said, my primary argument is for encryption to avoid ossification.
>>> Not that it matters now, but I'll note that much of GQUIC's original
>>> motivation for encrypting headers was to avoid ossification.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'll reiterate that fields we expose will get ossified and there are
>>> long-term ecosystem effects to this. Let me illustrate this with precis=
ely
>>> the packet number field. Middleboxes commonly assume that a TCP flow ca=
n
>>> only handle packets in-order. This assumption comes from the fact that =
TCP
>>> implementations get poor performance when packets are reordered. This w=
as
>>> definitely true for implementations of TCP, but that is TCP's problem, =
not
>>> the network's. However, almost all load-balancers I know of now will pi=
n
>>> all packets within a TCP flow to one path, leading to sub-optimal
>>> performance in the network, and destroying incentives for the endpoints=
 to
>>> deploy reordering-resilient TCP implementations (even though there are
>>> plenty of ways of doing this.)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Exposing QUIC's packet number field (as any field) is likely to have
>>> similar consequences and a similar ecosystem arc.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 7:51 PM, Salz, Rich <rsalz@akamai.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Optional security tends to devolve to non-secure.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> That=E2=80=99s a great aphorism.  And sadly all too true.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"ltr">On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 4:30 PM, Jana Iyengar <span dir=3D"=
ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jri@google.com" target=3D"_blank">jri@google.com=
</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-le=
ft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">I don&#39;t think we&#=
39;re converging here, so I&#39;d like to try and encourage us to move towa=
rds it. I have my opinion, but I care more about forward progress at this p=
oint.<div><br></div><div>There are three designs so far:</div><div>1. Packe=
t numbers as is, with random gaps around migration.</div><div>2. Packet num=
bers encrypted, as per Martin&#39;s PR.</div><div>3. Packet numbers encrypt=
ed, plus a small modulo sequence number somewhere.</div><div><br></div><div=
>The concrete ones here are (1) and (2).=C2=A0=C2=A0<span style=3D"color:rg=
b(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small;font-style:normal;=
font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;lett=
er-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whit=
e-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-deco=
ration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inlin=
e">I&#39;m listing (3) but am not inclined to consider it seriously, since =
it&#39;s not concrete enough, (and I don&#39;t want more bits to be spent i=
n the QUIC packet header if that&#39;s where this info goes.)</span><br><br=
></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>If you&#39;ll forgive my sayi=
ng so, evidence suggests that so many of the concrete aspects of such a pro=
posal (where the bits would live, how many bits, etc.) would change over th=
e lifetime of a proposal in this WG that any completely nailed down suggest=
ion might as well be a blank sheet for all the bearing it would have on the=
 final placement and length.<br><br></div><div>The question is:=C2=A0 do we=
 wish to expose a small sequence number to assist in network analysis and m=
anagement, yes or no?=C2=A0 <br><br>We can argue over the bike shed color a=
fter making the decision to build a shed; requiring the shed have a color b=
efore considering the question seems less productive to me than just answer=
ing the question.<br><br></div><div>Just my personal opinion, of course.<br=
><br></div><div>Ted<br></div><div><br>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left=
:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>There are opinions about ossification, privacy,=
 and manageability. I&#39;m not hearing bloody murder, so for what it&#39;s=
 worth, I&#39;d like to stipulate first that we can all live with the final=
 design, whichever one it is.=C2=A0 If anyone disagrees, please say so -- I=
 think it&#39;d be useful to hear if there are folks who think a particular=
 design is fundamentally problematic.</div><div><br></div><div><span style=
=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small;font-s=
tyle:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-wei=
ght:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transfo=
rm:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration-style:initial;t=
ext-decoration-color:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;d=
isplay:inline">My opinion is still for (2) over (1), but I can live with ei=
ther.</span><br></div></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 3=
:32 PM, Jana Iyengar <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jri@google.com=
" target=3D"_blank">jri@google.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pa=
dding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Praveen,<div><br></div><div><div style=3D"=
color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small;font-style=
:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:=
400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:n=
one;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration-style:initial;text-=
decoration-color:initial"><div style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:ari=
al,sans-serif;font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:norm=
al;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-alig=
n:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing=
:0px;text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial">That was =
precisely my point about the ecosystem evolving. Now that we have the abili=
ty to classify flows, various things have been built around being able to t=
ell TCP flows. This obviously has benefits as you point out, but the downsi=
de is that that I can&#39;t get good network utilization with a single flow=
. I understand the scaling point, but s<span style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);f=
ont-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-variant-=
ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:no=
rmal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:norma=
l;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:=
initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline">peaking of=
 common cases, any server in the wild is usually serving a large number of =
connections at moderate speeds, not a single one at 25-35 Gbps... which mak=
es that sort of scaling less exciting than in a microbenchmark.</span></div=
><div style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:s=
mall;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:norm=
al;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;t=
ext-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration-styl=
e:initial;text-decoration-color:initial"><span style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34)=
;font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-varian=
t-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:=
normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:nor=
mal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-styl=
e:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline"><br></sp=
an></div><div style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;fon=
t-size:small;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-c=
aps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-inde=
nt:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decorat=
ion-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial"><span style=3D"color:rgb(3=
4,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small;font-style:normal;fon=
t-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-=
spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-s=
pace:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decorat=
ion-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline">=
FWIW, the other downside of ECMP is that multipath transport doesn&#39;t wo=
rk -- you need to hash on something else besides the 4-tuple. (We had to wo=
rk around this in Google&#39;s deployment of connection migration.)</span><=
/div></div></div><div><br></div><div>I&#39;ll disagree with your point abou=
t reordering being the uncommon case. While that&#39;s true today, this is =
again an expectation that the network works hard to maintain, though the ec=
osystem and what we expect as &quot;usual&quot; would be quite different ha=
d we not built TCP&#39;s requirements into the network. There&#39;s nothing=
 wrong with having n-modal latencies... we can engineer around that. Any se=
nsible load distribution scheme within the network will give you increased =
variance but it should limit the worst-case latency. You&#39;d perhaps agre=
e that that&#39;s a net win.<br></div><div><br></div><div>This was an examp=
le of how exposing packet number or not can have long term ecosystem effect=
s. My point was about the fact that exposing can cause ossification.</div><=
span class=3D"m_-5376313852984361260HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><div><b=
r></div><div>- jana</div></font></span></div><div class=3D"m_-5376313852984=
361260HOEnZb"><div class=3D"m_-5376313852984361260h5"><div class=3D"gmail_e=
xtra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 9:24 AM, Pravee=
n Balasubramanian <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pravb@microsoft.c=
om" target=3D"_blank">pravb@microsoft.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s=
olid;padding-left:1ex">





<div link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" lang=3D"EN-US">
<div class=3D"m_-5376313852984361260m_7095374182116324034m_2080759241172096=
971WordSection1"><span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&gt;&gt; This was definitely true for implementation=
s of TCP, but that is TCP&#39;s problem, not the network&#39;s<u></u><u></u=
></p>
</span><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Flow classification happens through the netwo=
rk and also on the end host with RSS where a flow is mapped to a core. This=
 allows for building high performance receive processing that could be lock=
 free for the most part. The only downside
 of ECMP on the network and RSS on the CPU is that a single flow will not t=
ake multiple paths or get processed on more than one core. Windows on serve=
r machines today can saturate 25-35 Gbps for a single TCP connection before=
 being CPU limited. This is a =C2=A0reasonable
 trade off because I don=E2=80=99t know of cases where a single flow is dri=
ving more than that amount of traffic. Assumptions about how flows get clas=
sified help make for more efficient processing. They also lead to consisten=
t latency. You do not want the traffic to
 take a bi-modal or N-modal paths (on the network or the host) to being pro=
cessed because the fluctuations in latency will hurt the workload. I am not=
 arguing for TCP not being resilient to reordering but IMO that should be t=
he uncommon case not the common
 case. With QUIC if streams were exposed on the network you could take adva=
ntage of stream level ECMP and RSS to scale better than TCP but we have cho=
sen to keep the 4-tuple (or the 5-tuple) as the flow classifier on the netw=
ork which is ok by me since it leads
 to TCP parity. <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><b>From:</b> QUIC [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:qu=
ic-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>On Beh=
alf Of
</b>Jana Iyengar<br>
</span><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, February 4, 2018 8:35 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Salz, Rich &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rsalz@akamai.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">rsalz@akamai.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Lubashev, Igor &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ilubashe@akamai.com" target=
=3D"_blank">ilubashe@akamai.com</a>&gt;; Roberto Peon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:fenix@fb.com" target=3D"_blank">fenix@fb.com</a>&gt;; QUIC WG &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic@ietf.org</a>&gt;<span><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Packet number encryption<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Privacy-protection can&#39;t be a user choice, for t=
he reasons others have noted on this thread.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><div><d=
iv class=3D"m_-5376313852984361260m_7095374182116324034h5">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
That said, my primary argument is for encryption to avoid ossification. Not=
 that it matters now, but I&#39;ll note that much of GQUIC&#39;s original m=
otivation for encrypting headers was to avoid ossification.<u></u><u></u></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I&#39;ll reiterate that fields we expose will get os=
sified and there are long-term ecosystem effects to this. Let me illustrate=
 this with precisely the packet number field. Middleboxes commonly assume t=
hat a TCP flow can only handle packets
 in-order. This assumption comes from the fact that TCP implementations get=
 poor performance when packets are reordered. This was definitely true for =
implementations of TCP, but that is TCP&#39;s problem, not the network&#39;=
s. However, almost all load-balancers I
 know of now will pin all packets within a TCP flow to one path, leading to=
 sub-optimal performance in the network, and destroying incentives for the =
endpoints to deploy reordering-resilient TCP implementations (even though t=
here are plenty of ways of doing
 this.)<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Exposing QUIC&#39;s packet number field (as any fiel=
d) is likely to have similar consequences and a similar ecosystem arc.<u></=
u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div></div></div><div><div class=3D"m_-5376313852984361260m_70953741821163=
24034h5">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 7:51 PM, Salz, Rich &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:rsalz@akamai.com" target=3D"_blank">rsalz@akamai.com</a>&gt; w=
rote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">&gt; Optional security tend=
s to devolve to non-secure.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"m_-5376313852984361260m_7095374182116324034m_208075924117209697=
1m-791487608242578504xmsonormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-5376313852984361260m_7095374182116324034m_208075924117209697=
1m-791487608242578504xmsonormal">That=E2=80=99s a great aphorism.=C2=A0 And=
 sadly all too true.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

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From: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
To: Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>
CC: "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>, "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Packet number encryption
Thread-Topic: Packet number encryption
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From: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
To: Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>
CC: "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>, "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Packet number encryption
Thread-Topic: Packet number encryption
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From: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
To: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>
CC: "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>, "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Packet number encryption
Thread-Topic: Packet number encryption
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From: Marten Seemann <martenseemann@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2018 07:30:40 +0000
Message-ID: <CAOYVs2pZAbu9DsiOYWP-hw4eOuAWOxAzMZDKMmdm7SzigZOMRg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
To: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
Cc: Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>, "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>,  "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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Option 2 is the only option that allows us to correct our decision in the
future. If we were to discover that it doesn't work out as we planned (wrt
encryption performance, network manageability or literally any other
unforeseen problem), going back to option 1 (or coming up with another
clever solution) in a future QUIC version would still be a viable option.
Option 1 on the other hand, once deployed, immediately puts us at risk of
ossification by middleboxes, which will prohibit us from ever switching to
option 2 for a future QUIC version.

On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 3:10 PM Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com=
>
wrote:

> Oops sorry I think I misread that 1 requires random jumps only around
> migration and not always, which means its decidedly inferior to 2 w.r.t.
> ossification. Can we include a 1.1 which incorporates random jumps even i=
n
> steady state? Or have we ruled that option out?
>
>
>
> *From:* QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Praveen
> Balasubramanian
> *Sent:* Monday, February 5, 2018 7:13 PM
> *To:* Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>
>
>
> *Cc:* Salz, Rich <rsalz@akamai.com>; Lubashev, Igor <ilubashe@akamai.com>=
;
> Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>; QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
>
> *Subject:* RE: Packet number encryption
>
>
>
> My opinion is for 1 over 2 but I can live with either. The main concern i=
s
> cost of another encryption / decryption step, so the benefit of 2 over 1
> should be demonstrably better on one of ossification, privacy, or
> manageability.
>
>
>
> *From:* Jana Iyengar [mailto:jri@google.com <jri@google.com>]
> *Sent:* Monday, February 5, 2018 4:31 PM
> *To:* Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
> *Cc:* Salz, Rich <rsalz@akamai.com>; Lubashev, Igor <ilubashe@akamai.com>=
;
> Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>; QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: Packet number encryption
>
>
>
> I don't think we're converging here, so I'd like to try and encourage us
> to move towards it. I have my opinion, but I care more about forward
> progress at this point.
>
>
>
> There are three designs so far:
>
> 1. Packet numbers as is, with random gaps around migration.
>
> 2. Packet numbers encrypted, as per Martin's PR.
>
> 3. Packet numbers encrypted, plus a small modulo sequence number somewher=
e.
>
>
>
> The concrete ones here are (1) and (2).  I'm listing (3) but am not
> inclined to consider it seriously, since it's not concrete enough, (and I
> don't want more bits to be spent in the QUIC packet header if that's wher=
e
> this info goes.)
>
> There are opinions about ossification, privacy, and manageability. I'm no=
t
> hearing bloody murder, so for what it's worth, I'd like to stipulate firs=
t
> that we can all live with the final design, whichever one it is.  If anyo=
ne
> disagrees, please say so -- I think it'd be useful to hear if there are
> folks who think a particular design is fundamentally problematic.
>
>
>
> My opinion is still for (2) over (1), but I can live with either.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 3:32 PM, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com> wrote:
>
> Praveen,
>
>
>
> That was precisely my point about the ecosystem evolving. Now that we hav=
e
> the ability to classify flows, various things have been built around bein=
g
> able to tell TCP flows. This obviously has benefits as you point out, but
> the downside is that that I can't get good network utilization with a
> single flow. I understand the scaling point, but speaking of common
> cases, any server in the wild is usually serving a large number of
> connections at moderate speeds, not a single one at 25-35 Gbps... which
> makes that sort of scaling less exciting than in a microbenchmark.
>
>
>
> FWIW, the other downside of ECMP is that multipath transport doesn't work
> -- you need to hash on something else besides the 4-tuple. (We had to wor=
k
> around this in Google's deployment of connection migration.)
>
>
>
> I'll disagree with your point about reordering being the uncommon case.
> While that's true today, this is again an expectation that the network
> works hard to maintain, though the ecosystem and what we expect as "usual=
"
> would be quite different had we not built TCP's requirements into the
> network. There's nothing wrong with having n-modal latencies... we can
> engineer around that. Any sensible load distribution scheme within the
> network will give you increased variance but it should limit the worst-ca=
se
> latency. You'd perhaps agree that that's a net win.
>
>
>
> This was an example of how exposing packet number or not can have long
> term ecosystem effects. My point was about the fact that exposing can cau=
se
> ossification.
>
>
>
> - jana
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 9:24 AM, Praveen Balasubramanian <
> pravb@microsoft.com> wrote:
>
> >> This was definitely true for implementations of TCP, but that is TCP's
> problem, not the network's
>
> Flow classification happens through the network and also on the end host
> with RSS where a flow is mapped to a core. This allows for building high
> performance receive processing that could be lock free for the most part.
> The only downside of ECMP on the network and RSS on the CPU is that a
> single flow will not take multiple paths or get processed on more than on=
e
> core. Windows on server machines today can saturate 25-35 Gbps for a sing=
le
> TCP connection before being CPU limited. This is a  reasonable trade off
> because I don=E2=80=99t know of cases where a single flow is driving more=
 than that
> amount of traffic. Assumptions about how flows get classified help make f=
or
> more efficient processing. They also lead to consistent latency. You do n=
ot
> want the traffic to take a bi-modal or N-modal paths (on the network or t=
he
> host) to being processed because the fluctuations in latency will hurt th=
e
> workload. I am not arguing for TCP not being resilient to reordering but
> IMO that should be the uncommon case not the common case. With QUIC if
> streams were exposed on the network you could take advantage of stream
> level ECMP and RSS to scale better than TCP but we have chosen to keep th=
e
> 4-tuple (or the 5-tuple) as the flow classifier on the network which is o=
k
> by me since it leads to TCP parity.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> *From:* QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Jana Iyengar
> *Sent:* Sunday, February 4, 2018 8:35 PM
> *To:* Salz, Rich <rsalz@akamai.com>
> *Cc:* Lubashev, Igor <ilubashe@akamai.com>; Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>;
> QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: Packet number encryption
>
>
>
> Privacy-protection can't be a user choice, for the reasons others have
> noted on this thread.
>
>
> That said, my primary argument is for encryption to avoid ossification.
> Not that it matters now, but I'll note that much of GQUIC's original
> motivation for encrypting headers was to avoid ossification.
>
>
>
> I'll reiterate that fields we expose will get ossified and there are
> long-term ecosystem effects to this. Let me illustrate this with precisel=
y
> the packet number field. Middleboxes commonly assume that a TCP flow can
> only handle packets in-order. This assumption comes from the fact that TC=
P
> implementations get poor performance when packets are reordered. This was
> definitely true for implementations of TCP, but that is TCP's problem, no=
t
> the network's. However, almost all load-balancers I know of now will pin
> all packets within a TCP flow to one path, leading to sub-optimal
> performance in the network, and destroying incentives for the endpoints t=
o
> deploy reordering-resilient TCP implementations (even though there are
> plenty of ways of doing this.)
>
>
>
> Exposing QUIC's packet number field (as any field) is likely to have
> similar consequences and a similar ecosystem arc.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 7:51 PM, Salz, Rich <rsalz@akamai.com> wrote:
>
> > Optional security tends to devolve to non-secure.
>
>
>
> That=E2=80=99s a great aphorism.  And sadly all too true.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--001a1140fe58843f8505648628bd
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Option 2 is the only option that allows us to correct our =
decision in the future. If we were to discover that it doesn&#39;t work out=
 as we planned (wrt encryption performance, network manageability or litera=
lly any other unforeseen problem), going back to option 1 (or coming up wit=
h another clever solution) in a future QUIC version would still be a viable=
 option.<div>Option 1 on the other hand, once deployed, immediately puts us=
 at risk of ossification by middleboxes, which will prohibit us from ever s=
witching to option 2 for a future QUIC version.</div></div><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 3:10 PM Praveen Ba=
lasubramanian &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pravb@microsoft.com">pravb@microsoft.co=
m</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_90637406847088906WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Oops sorry I think I misread that 1 requires random =
jumps only around migration and not always, which means its decidedly infer=
ior to 2 w.r.t. ossification. Can we include a 1.1 which incorporates rando=
m jumps even in steady state? Or have
 we ruled that option out?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> QUIC [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bou=
nces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Praveen Balasubramanian<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 5, 2018 7:13 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Jana Iyengar &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jri@google.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">jri@google.com</a>&gt;</p></div></div></div></div><div lang=3D"EN-US" =
link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"m_90637406847088906WordSection=
1"><div><div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.=
0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Salz, Rich &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rsalz@akamai.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">rsalz@akamai.com</a>&gt;; Lubashev, Igor &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ilubash=
e@akamai.com" target=3D"_blank">ilubashe@akamai.com</a>&gt;; Roberto Peon &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.com" target=3D"_blank">fenix@fb.com</a>&gt;; =
QUIC WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic@ietf.or=
g</a>&gt;<br>
</p></div></div></div></div><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purp=
le"><div class=3D"m_90637406847088906WordSection1"><div><div style=3D"borde=
r:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><b>Subject:</b> RE: Packet number encryption<u></u><u></u></=
p>
</div>
</div></div></div><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div c=
lass=3D"m_90637406847088906WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">My opinion is for 1 over 2 but I can live with eithe=
r. The main concern is cost of another encryption / decryption step, so the=
 benefit of 2 over 1 should be demonstrably better on one of ossification, =
privacy, or manageability.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Jana Iyengar [<a href=3D"mailto:jri@goo=
gle.com" target=3D"_blank">mailto:jri@google.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 5, 2018 4:31 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Praveen Balasubramanian &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pravb@microsoft.co=
m" target=3D"_blank">pravb@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Salz, Rich &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rsalz@akamai.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">rsalz@akamai.com</a>&gt;; Lubashev, Igor &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ilubash=
e@akamai.com" target=3D"_blank">ilubashe@akamai.com</a>&gt;; Roberto Peon &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.com" target=3D"_blank">fenix@fb.com</a>&gt;; =
QUIC WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic@ietf.or=
g</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Packet number encryption<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I don&#39;t think we&#39;re converging here, so I&#3=
9;d like to try and encourage us to move towards it. I have my opinion, but=
 I care more about forward progress at this point.<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">There are three designs so far:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">1. Packet numbers as is, with random gaps around mig=
ration.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">2. Packet numbers encrypted, as per Martin&#39;s PR.=
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">3. Packet numbers encrypted, plus a small modulo seq=
uence number somewhere.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The concrete ones here are (1) and (2).=C2=A0=C2=A0<=
span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;col=
or:#222222;background:white">I&#39;m listing (3) but am not inclined to con=
sider it seriously, since it&#39;s not concrete enough, (and I don&#39;t
 want more bits to be spent in the QUIC packet header if that&#39;s where t=
his info goes.)</span><br>
<br>
There are opinions about ossification, privacy, and manageability. I&#39;m =
not hearing bloody murder, so for what it&#39;s worth, I&#39;d like to stip=
ulate first that we can all live with the final design, whichever one it is=
.=C2=A0 If anyone disagrees, please say so -- I think
 it&#39;d be useful to hear if there are folks who think a particular desig=
n is fundamentally problematic.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif;color:#222222;background:white">My opinion is still fo=
r (2) over (1), but I can live with either.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 3:32 PM, Jana Iyengar &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jri@google.com" target=3D"_blank">jri@google.com</a>&gt; wro=
te:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Praveen,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif;color:#222222">That was precisely my point about the e=
cosystem evolving. Now that we have the ability to classify flows, various =
things have been built around being able to tell
 TCP flows. This obviously has benefits as you point out, but the downside =
is that that I can&#39;t get good network utilization with a single flow. I=
 understand the scaling point, but s<span style=3D"background:white">peakin=
g of common cases, any server in the wild
 is usually serving a large number of connections at moderate speeds, not a=
 single one at 25-35 Gbps... which makes that sort of scaling less exciting=
 than in a microbenchmark.</span><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif;color:#222222"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif;color:#222222;background:white">FWIW, the other downsi=
de of ECMP is that multipath transport doesn&#39;t work -- you need to hash=
 on something else besides the 4-tuple. (We had to
 work around this in Google&#39;s deployment of connection migration.)</spa=
n><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;=
color:#222222"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I&#39;ll disagree with your point about reordering b=
eing the uncommon case. While that&#39;s true today, this is again an expec=
tation that the network works hard to maintain, though the ecosystem and wh=
at we expect as &quot;usual&quot; would be quite different
 had we not built TCP&#39;s requirements into the network. There&#39;s noth=
ing wrong with having n-modal latencies... we can engineer around that. Any=
 sensible load distribution scheme within the network will give you increas=
ed variance but it should limit the worst-case
 latency. You&#39;d perhaps agree that that&#39;s a net win.<u></u><u></u><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This was an example of how exposing packet number or=
 not can have long term ecosystem effects. My point was about the fact that=
 exposing can cause ossification.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#888888"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#888888">- jana<u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 9:24 AM, Praveen Balasubraman=
ian &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pravb@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank">pravb@micr=
osoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&gt;&gt; This was definitely true for implementation=
s of TCP, but that is TCP&#39;s problem, not the network&#39;s<u></u><u></u=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Flow classification happens through the network and =
also on the end host with RSS where a flow is mapped to a core. This allows=
 for building high performance receive processing
 that could be lock free for the most part. The only downside of ECMP on th=
e network and RSS on the CPU is that a single flow will not take multiple p=
aths or get processed on more than one core. Windows on server machines tod=
ay can saturate 25-35 Gbps for a
 single TCP connection before being CPU limited. This is a =C2=A0reasonable=
 trade off because I don=E2=80=99t know of cases where a single flow is dri=
ving more than that amount of traffic. Assumptions about how flows get clas=
sified help make for more efficient processing.
 They also lead to consistent latency. You do not want the traffic to take =
a bi-modal or N-modal paths (on the network or the host) to being processed=
 because the fluctuations in latency will hurt the workload. I am not argui=
ng for TCP not being resilient to
 reordering but IMO that should be the uncommon case not the common case. W=
ith QUIC if streams were exposed on the network you could take advantage of=
 stream level ECMP and RSS to scale better than TCP but we have chosen to k=
eep the 4-tuple (or the 5-tuple)
 as the flow classifier on the network which is ok by me since it leads to =
TCP parity.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> QUIC [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bou=
nces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jana Iyengar<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, February 4, 2018 8:35 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Salz, Rich &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rsalz@akamai.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">rsalz@akamai.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Lubashev, Igor &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ilubashe@akamai.com" target=
=3D"_blank">ilubashe@akamai.com</a>&gt;; Roberto Peon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:fenix@fb.com" target=3D"_blank">fenix@fb.com</a>&gt;; QUIC WG &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Packet number encryption<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Privacy-protection can&#39;t be a user choice, for t=
he reasons others have noted on this thread.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
That said, my primary argument is for encryption to avoid ossification. Not=
 that it matters now, but I&#39;ll note that much of GQUIC&#39;s original m=
otivation for encrypting headers was to avoid ossification.<u></u><u></u></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I&#39;ll reiterate that fields we expose will get os=
sified and there are long-term ecosystem effects to this. Let me illustrate=
 this with precisely the packet number field. Middleboxes
 commonly assume that a TCP flow can only handle packets in-order. This ass=
umption comes from the fact that TCP implementations get poor performance w=
hen packets are reordered. This was definitely true for implementations of =
TCP, but that is TCP&#39;s problem,
 not the network&#39;s. However, almost all load-balancers I know of now wi=
ll pin all packets within a TCP flow to one path, leading to sub-optimal pe=
rformance in the network, and destroying incentives for the endpoints to de=
ploy reordering-resilient TCP implementations
 (even though there are plenty of ways of doing this.)<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Exposing QUIC&#39;s packet number field (as any fiel=
d) is likely to have similar consequences and a similar ecosystem arc.<u></=
u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 7:51 PM, Salz, Rich &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:rsalz@akamai.com" target=3D"_blank">rsalz@akamai.com</a>&gt; w=
rote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">&gt; Optional security tend=
s to devolve to non-secure.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"m_90637406847088906m7095374182116324034m2080759241172096971m-79=
1487608242578504xmsonormal">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_90637406847088906m7095374182116324034m2080759241172096971m-79=
1487608242578504xmsonormal">
That=E2=80=99s a great aphorism.=C2=A0 And sadly all too true.<u></u><u></u=
></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div></div></blockquote></div>

--001a1140fe58843f8505648628bd--


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From: "Roni Even (A)" <roni.even@huawei.com>
To: Marten Seemann <martenseemann@gmail.com>, Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
CC: Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>, "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>
Subject: RE: Packet number encryption
Thread-Topic: Packet number encryption
Thread-Index: AQHTnxxjs2xD/Oha40aWBKSZaocvJqOW+2JQ
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 07:34:50 +0000
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In-Reply-To: <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD8621FA@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com>
From: Marten Seemann <martenseemann@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2018 07:57:41 +0000
Message-ID: <CAOYVs2o3XPiW8unZtd67LkgHFd5zckZHYsYAywPM9SNvF_5qng@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
To: "Roni Even (A)" <roni.even@huawei.com>
Cc: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>,  "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>
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That's only true if you assume that the middlebox reads the version number
from the Long Header packets, and then only takes action if it understands
that version. Additionally, in case of a migrated connection, the middlebox
has no way to learn about the QUIC version at all, and would have to
refrain from taking any action at all. Furthermore, if we rotate connection
IDs more frequently, as Martin suggested, the middlebox would also become
ignorant of the QUIC version for that new connection ID, and would have to
stop reading the packet number for that flow.

These are a lot of ifs, and I'm not sure if it's a wise decision to put all
our trust in the manufacturers of middleboxes, that all of them will adhere
to all the assumptions outlined above.
Note that there's no other way than deploying a new QUIC version to
distinguish middleboxes implementing this correctly from middleboxes that
don't exactly play by these rules. Since in the beginning QUIC v1 will be
the only deployed QUIC version, it might be very tempting for middleboxes
to not implement these rules properly.

On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 3:34 PM Roni Even (A) <roni.even@huawei.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> This is what version negotiation is for, you can change it in future
> version based on version number.
>
> Roni
>
>
>
> *From:* QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Marten Seemann
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 06, 2018 9:31 AM
> *To:* Praveen Balasubramanian
> *Cc:* Jana Iyengar; Lubashev, Igor; Roberto Peon; QUIC WG; Salz, Rich
>
>
> *Subject:* Re: Packet number encryption
>
>
>
> Option 2 is the only option that allows us to correct our decision in the
> future. If we were to discover that it doesn't work out as we planned (wr=
t
> encryption performance, network manageability or literally any other
> unforeseen problem), going back to option 1 (or coming up with another
> clever solution) in a future QUIC version would still be a viable option.
>
> Option 1 on the other hand, once deployed, immediately puts us at risk of
> ossification by middleboxes, which will prohibit us from ever switching t=
o
> option 2 for a future QUIC version.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 3:10 PM Praveen Balasubramanian <
> pravb@microsoft.com> wrote:
>
> Oops sorry I think I misread that 1 requires random jumps only around
> migration and not always, which means its decidedly inferior to 2 w.r.t.
> ossification. Can we include a 1.1 which incorporates random jumps even i=
n
> steady state? Or have we ruled that option out?
>
>
>
> *From:* QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Praveen
> Balasubramanian
> *Sent:* Monday, February 5, 2018 7:13 PM
> *To:* Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>
>
>
> *Cc:* Salz, Rich <rsalz@akamai.com>; Lubashev, Igor <ilubashe@akamai.com>=
;
> Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>; QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
>
> *Subject:* RE: Packet number encryption
>
>
>
> My opinion is for 1 over 2 but I can live with either. The main concern i=
s
> cost of another encryption / decryption step, so the benefit of 2 over 1
> should be demonstrably better on one of ossification, privacy, or
> manageability.
>
>
>
> *From:* Jana Iyengar [mailto:jri@google.com <jri@google.com>]
> *Sent:* Monday, February 5, 2018 4:31 PM
> *To:* Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
> *Cc:* Salz, Rich <rsalz@akamai.com>; Lubashev, Igor <ilubashe@akamai.com>=
;
> Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>; QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: Packet number encryption
>
>
>
> I don't think we're converging here, so I'd like to try and encourage us
> to move towards it. I have my opinion, but I care more about forward
> progress at this point.
>
>
>
> There are three designs so far:
>
> 1. Packet numbers as is, with random gaps around migration.
>
> 2. Packet numbers encrypted, as per Martin's PR.
>
> 3. Packet numbers encrypted, plus a small modulo sequence number somewher=
e.
>
>
>
> The concrete ones here are (1) and (2).  I'm listing (3) but am not
> inclined to consider it seriously, since it's not concrete enough, (and I
> don't want more bits to be spent in the QUIC packet header if that's wher=
e
> this info goes.)
>
> There are opinions about ossification, privacy, and manageability. I'm no=
t
> hearing bloody murder, so for what it's worth, I'd like to stipulate firs=
t
> that we can all live with the final design, whichever one it is.  If anyo=
ne
> disagrees, please say so -- I think it'd be useful to hear if there are
> folks who think a particular design is fundamentally problematic.
>
>
>
> My opinion is still for (2) over (1), but I can live with either.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 3:32 PM, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com> wrote:
>
> Praveen,
>
>
>
> That was precisely my point about the ecosystem evolving. Now that we hav=
e
> the ability to classify flows, various things have been built around bein=
g
> able to tell TCP flows. This obviously has benefits as you point out, but
> the downside is that that I can't get good network utilization with a
> single flow. I understand the scaling point, but speaking of common
> cases, any server in the wild is usually serving a large number of
> connections at moderate speeds, not a single one at 25-35 Gbps... which
> makes that sort of scaling less exciting than in a microbenchmark.
>
>
>
> FWIW, the other downside of ECMP is that multipath transport doesn't work
> -- you need to hash on something else besides the 4-tuple. (We had to wor=
k
> around this in Google's deployment of connection migration.)
>
>
>
> I'll disagree with your point about reordering being the uncommon case.
> While that's true today, this is again an expectation that the network
> works hard to maintain, though the ecosystem and what we expect as "usual=
"
> would be quite different had we not built TCP's requirements into the
> network. There's nothing wrong with having n-modal latencies... we can
> engineer around that. Any sensible load distribution scheme within the
> network will give you increased variance but it should limit the worst-ca=
se
> latency. You'd perhaps agree that that's a net win.
>
>
>
> This was an example of how exposing packet number or not can have long
> term ecosystem effects. My point was about the fact that exposing can cau=
se
> ossification.
>
>
>
> - jana
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 9:24 AM, Praveen Balasubramanian <
> pravb@microsoft.com> wrote:
>
> >> This was definitely true for implementations of TCP, but that is TCP's
> problem, not the network's
>
> Flow classification happens through the network and also on the end host
> with RSS where a flow is mapped to a core. This allows for building high
> performance receive processing that could be lock free for the most part.
> The only downside of ECMP on the network and RSS on the CPU is that a
> single flow will not take multiple paths or get processed on more than on=
e
> core. Windows on server machines today can saturate 25-35 Gbps for a sing=
le
> TCP connection before being CPU limited. This is a  reasonable trade off
> because I don=E2=80=99t know of cases where a single flow is driving more=
 than that
> amount of traffic. Assumptions about how flows get classified help make f=
or
> more efficient processing. They also lead to consistent latency. You do n=
ot
> want the traffic to take a bi-modal or N-modal paths (on the network or t=
he
> host) to being processed because the fluctuations in latency will hurt th=
e
> workload. I am not arguing for TCP not being resilient to reordering but
> IMO that should be the uncommon case not the common case. With QUIC if
> streams were exposed on the network you could take advantage of stream
> level ECMP and RSS to scale better than TCP but we have chosen to keep th=
e
> 4-tuple (or the 5-tuple) as the flow classifier on the network which is o=
k
> by me since it leads to TCP parity.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> *From:* QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Jana Iyengar
> *Sent:* Sunday, February 4, 2018 8:35 PM
> *To:* Salz, Rich <rsalz@akamai.com>
> *Cc:* Lubashev, Igor <ilubashe@akamai.com>; Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>;
> QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: Packet number encryption
>
>
>
> Privacy-protection can't be a user choice, for the reasons others have
> noted on this thread.
>
>
> That said, my primary argument is for encryption to avoid ossification.
> Not that it matters now, but I'll note that much of GQUIC's original
> motivation for encrypting headers was to avoid ossification.
>
>
>
> I'll reiterate that fields we expose will get ossified and there are
> long-term ecosystem effects to this. Let me illustrate this with precisel=
y
> the packet number field. Middleboxes commonly assume that a TCP flow can
> only handle packets in-order. This assumption comes from the fact that TC=
P
> implementations get poor performance when packets are reordered. This was
> definitely true for implementations of TCP, but that is TCP's problem, no=
t
> the network's. However, almost all load-balancers I know of now will pin
> all packets within a TCP flow to one path, leading to sub-optimal
> performance in the network, and destroying incentives for the endpoints t=
o
> deploy reordering-resilient TCP implementations (even though there are
> plenty of ways of doing this.)
>
>
>
> Exposing QUIC's packet number field (as any field) is likely to have
> similar consequences and a similar ecosystem arc.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 7:51 PM, Salz, Rich <rsalz@akamai.com> wrote:
>
> > Optional security tends to devolve to non-secure.
>
>
>
> That=E2=80=99s a great aphorism.  And sadly all too true.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">That&#39;s only true if you assume that the middlebox read=
s the version number from the Long Header packets, and then only takes acti=
on if it understands that version. Additionally, in case of a migrated conn=
ection, the middlebox has no way to learn about the QUIC version at all, an=
d would have to refrain from taking any action at all. Furthermore, if we r=
otate connection IDs more frequently, as Martin suggested, the middlebox wo=
uld also become ignorant of the QUIC version for that new connection ID, an=
d would have to stop reading the packet number for that flow.<div><br></div=
><div>These are a lot of ifs, and I&#39;m not sure if it&#39;s a wise decis=
ion to put all our trust in the manufacturers of middleboxes, that all of t=
hem will adhere to all the assumptions outlined above.<br></div><div>Note t=
hat there&#39;s no other way than deploying a new QUIC version to distingui=
sh middleboxes implementing this correctly from middleboxes that don&#39;t =
exactly play by these rules. Since in the beginning QUIC v1 will be the onl=
y deployed QUIC version, it might be very tempting for middleboxes to not i=
mplement these rules properly.</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr">On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 3:34 PM Roni Even (A) &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:roni.even@huawei.com">roni.even@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px=
 #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_3351709834575538666WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Hi,<u></u><u></u></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">This is what version nego=
tiation is for, you can change it in future version based on version number=
.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Roni<u></u><u></u></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;"> QUIC [ma=
ilto:<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic-bounce=
s@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Marten Seemann<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 06, 2018 9:31 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Praveen Balasubramanian<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Jana Iyengar; Lubashev, Igor; Roberto Peon; QUIC WG; Salz, Rich<=
/span></p></div></div><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><d=
iv class=3D"m_3351709834575538666WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&=
quot;"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Packet number encryption<u></u><u></u></span></p></div>=
</div><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"m_33=
51709834575538666WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Option 2 is the only option that allows us to correc=
t our decision in the future. If we were to discover that it doesn&#39;t wo=
rk out as we planned (wrt encryption performance, network manageability or =
literally any other unforeseen problem),
 going back to option 1 (or coming up with another clever solution) in a fu=
ture QUIC version would still be a viable option.<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Option 1 on the other hand, once deployed, immediate=
ly puts us at risk of ossification by middleboxes, which will prohibit us f=
rom ever switching to option 2 for a future QUIC version.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 3:10 PM Praveen Balasubramani=
an &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pravb@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank">pravb@micro=
soft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Oops sorry I think I misread that 1 requires random =
jumps only around migration and not always, which means its decidedly infer=
ior to 2 w.r.t. ossification. Can we include a 1.1
 which incorporates random jumps even in steady state? Or have we ruled tha=
t option out?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> QUIC [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bou=
nces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Praveen Balasubramanian<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 5, 2018 7:13 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Jana Iyengar &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jri@google.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">jri@google.com</a>&gt;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Salz, Rich &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rsalz@akamai.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">rsalz@akamai.com</a>&gt;; Lubashev, Igor &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ilubash=
e@akamai.com" target=3D"_blank">ilubashe@akamai.com</a>&gt;; Roberto Peon &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.com" target=3D"_blank">fenix@fb.com</a>&gt;;
 QUIC WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt;<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>Subject:</b> RE: Packet number encryption<u></u><=
u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">My opinion is for 1 over 2 but I can live with eithe=
r. The main concern is cost of another encryption / decryption step, so the=
 benefit of 2 over 1 should be demonstrably better
 on one of ossification, privacy, or manageability. <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Jana Iyengar [<a href=3D"mailto:jri@goo=
gle.com" target=3D"_blank">mailto:jri@google.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, February 5, 2018 4:31 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Praveen Balasubramanian &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pravb@microsoft.co=
m" target=3D"_blank">pravb@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Salz, Rich &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rsalz@akamai.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">rsalz@akamai.com</a>&gt;; Lubashev, Igor &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ilubash=
e@akamai.com" target=3D"_blank">ilubashe@akamai.com</a>&gt;; Roberto Peon &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.com" target=3D"_blank">fenix@fb.com</a>&gt;;
 QUIC WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Packet number encryption<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I don&#39;t think we&#39;re converging here, so I&#3=
9;d like to try and encourage us to move towards it. I have my opinion, but=
 I care more about forward progress at this point.<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">There are three designs so far:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">1. Packet numbers as is, with random gaps around mig=
ration.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">2. Packet numbers encrypted, as per Martin&#39;s PR.=
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">3. Packet numbers encrypted, plus a small modulo seq=
uence number somewhere.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The concrete ones here are (1) and (2).=C2=A0=C2=A0<=
span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#2=
22222;background:white">I&#39;m listing (3) but am not inclined to consider=
 it seriously,
 since it&#39;s not concrete enough, (and I don&#39;t want more bits to be =
spent in the QUIC packet header if that&#39;s where this info goes.)</span>=
<br>
<br>
There are opinions about ossification, privacy, and manageability. I&#39;m =
not hearing bloody murder, so for what it&#39;s worth, I&#39;d like to stip=
ulate first that we can all live with the final design, whichever one it is=
.=C2=A0 If anyone disagrees, please say so -- I think
 it&#39;d be useful to hear if there are folks who think a particular desig=
n is fundamentally problematic.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;;color:#222222;background:white">My opinion is still for (2)=
 over (1), but I can live with either.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 3:32 PM, Jana Iyengar &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jri@google.com" target=3D"_blank">jri@google.com</a>&gt; wro=
te:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Praveen,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;;color:#222222">That was precisely my point about the ecosys=
tem evolving. Now that we have the ability to classify flows, various thing=
s
 have been built around being able to tell TCP flows. This obviously has be=
nefits as you point out, but the downside is that that I can&#39;t get good=
 network utilization with a single flow. I understand the scaling point, bu=
t s<span style=3D"background:white">peaking
 of common cases, any server in the wild is usually serving a large number =
of connections at moderate speeds, not a single one at 25-35 Gbps... which =
makes that sort of scaling less exciting than in a microbenchmark.</span></=
span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;;color:#222222">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,&quot;s=
ans-serif&quot;;color:#222222;background:white">FWIW, the other downside of=
 ECMP is that multipath transport doesn&#39;t work -- you need to hash on s=
omething
 else besides the 4-tuple. (We had to work around this in Google&#39;s depl=
oyment of connection migration.)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I&#39;ll disagree with your point about reordering b=
eing the uncommon case. While that&#39;s true today, this is again an expec=
tation that the network works hard to maintain, though the
 ecosystem and what we expect as &quot;usual&quot; would be quite different=
 had we not built TCP&#39;s requirements into the network. There&#39;s noth=
ing wrong with having n-modal latencies... we can engineer around that. Any=
 sensible load distribution scheme within the network
 will give you increased variance but it should limit the worst-case latenc=
y. You&#39;d perhaps agree that that&#39;s a net win.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This was an example of how exposing packet number or=
 not can have long term ecosystem effects. My point was about the fact that=
 exposing can cause ossification.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#888888">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#888888">- jana</span><u></u><u=
></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 9:24 AM, Praveen Balasubraman=
ian &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pravb@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank">pravb@micr=
osoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&gt;&gt; This was definitely true for implementation=
s of TCP, but that is TCP&#39;s problem, not the network&#39;s<u></u><u></u=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Flow classification happens through the network and =
also on the end host with RSS where a flow is mapped to a core. This allows=
 for building high performance receive processing
 that could be lock free for the most part. The only downside of ECMP on th=
e network and RSS on the CPU is that a single flow will not take multiple p=
aths or get processed on more than one core. Windows on server machines tod=
ay can saturate 25-35 Gbps for a
 single TCP connection before being CPU limited. This is a =C2=A0reasonable=
 trade off because I don=E2=80=99t know of cases where a single flow is dri=
ving more than that amount of traffic. Assumptions about how flows get clas=
sified help make for more efficient processing.
 They also lead to consistent latency. You do not want the traffic to take =
a bi-modal or N-modal paths (on the network or the host) to being processed=
 because the fluctuations in latency will hurt the workload. I am not argui=
ng for TCP not being resilient to
 reordering but IMO that should be the uncommon case not the common case. W=
ith QUIC if streams were exposed on the network you could take advantage of=
 stream level ECMP and RSS to scale better than TCP but we have chosen to k=
eep the 4-tuple (or the 5-tuple)
 as the flow classifier on the network which is ok by me since it leads to =
TCP parity.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> QUIC [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bou=
nces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jana Iyengar<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, February 4, 2018 8:35 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Salz, Rich &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rsalz@akamai.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">rsalz@akamai.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Lubashev, Igor &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ilubashe@akamai.com" target=
=3D"_blank">ilubashe@akamai.com</a>&gt;; Roberto Peon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:fenix@fb.com" target=3D"_blank">fenix@fb.com</a>&gt;; QUIC WG &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Packet number encryption<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Privacy-protection can&#39;t be a user choice, for t=
he reasons others have noted on this thread.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
That said, my primary argument is for encryption to avoid ossification. Not=
 that it matters now, but I&#39;ll note that much of GQUIC&#39;s original m=
otivation for encrypting headers was to avoid ossification.<u></u><u></u></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I&#39;ll reiterate that fields we expose will get os=
sified and there are long-term ecosystem effects to this. Let me illustrate=
 this with precisely the packet number field. Middleboxes
 commonly assume that a TCP flow can only handle packets in-order. This ass=
umption comes from the fact that TCP implementations get poor performance w=
hen packets are reordered. This was definitely true for implementations of =
TCP, but that is TCP&#39;s problem,
 not the network&#39;s. However, almost all load-balancers I know of now wi=
ll pin all packets within a TCP flow to one path, leading to sub-optimal pe=
rformance in the network, and destroying incentives for the endpoints to de=
ploy reordering-resilient TCP implementations
 (even though there are plenty of ways of doing this.)<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Exposing QUIC&#39;s packet number field (as any fiel=
d) is likely to have similar consequences and a similar ecosystem arc.<u></=
u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 7:51 PM, Salz, Rich &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:rsalz@akamai.com" target=3D"_blank">rsalz@akamai.com</a>&gt; w=
rote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p><span style=3D"color:black">&gt; Optional security tends to devolve to n=
on-secure.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"m_3351709834575538666m90637406847088906m7095374182116324034m208=
0759241172096971m-791487608242578504xmsonormal">
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_3351709834575538666m90637406847088906m7095374182116324034m208=
0759241172096971m-791487608242578504xmsonormal">
That=E2=80=99s a great aphorism.=C2=A0 And sadly all too true.<u></u><u></u=
></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div></div></blockquote></div>

--001a114354c61f6c100564868905--


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From: "Brian Trammell (IETF)" <ietf@trammell.ch>
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Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 11:13:24 +0100
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> On 6 Feb 2018, at 01:30, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com> wrote:
>=20
> I don't think we're converging here, so I'd like to try and encourage =
us to move towards it. I have my opinion, but I care more about forward =
progress at this point.
>=20
> There are three designs so far:
> 1. Packet numbers as is, with random gaps around migration.
> 2. Packet numbers encrypted, as per Martin's PR.
> 3. Packet numbers encrypted, plus a small modulo sequence number =
somewhere.
>=20
> The concrete ones here are (1) and (2).  I'm listing (3) but am not =
inclined to consider it seriously, since it's not concrete enough, (and =
I don't want more bits to be spent in the QUIC packet header if that's =
where this info goes.)

Unsurprisingly, I'm still for (3). :)

If a concrete proposal would incline you to consider it seriously, I'm =
happy to write one or two points in this space up, probably for the list =
at first. (Indeed, I'll probably go ahead and do this anyway today).

> There are opinions about ossification, privacy, and manageability. I'm =
not hearing bloody murder, so for what it's worth, I'd like to stipulate =
first that we can all live with the final design, whichever one it is.  =
If anyone disagrees, please say so -- I think it'd be useful to hear if =
there are folks who think a particular design is fundamentally =
problematic.
>=20
> My opinion is still for (2) over (1), but I can live with either.

FWIW, I prefer (2) over (1) as well, modulo a little discomfort about =
the crypto: the proposed encryption scheme uses a secret derived from =
the end-to-end secret to ECB-encrypt a plaintext which is completely =
known to an on-path observer in a place to see all packets in the common =
case that packets are neither lost nor reordered on the path -- namely =
the sequence 0x00 - 0x3f, 0x4000 - 0x7fff and so on. I Am Not A =
Cryptographer, but that property of this algorithm used in this way =
screams "Call A Cryptographer Before Deploying" to me.)

Cheers,

Brian


> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 3:32 PM, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com> wrote:
> Praveen,
>=20
> That was precisely my point about the ecosystem evolving. Now that we =
have the ability to classify flows, various things have been built =
around being able to tell TCP flows. This obviously has benefits as you =
point out, but the downside is that that I can't get good network =
utilization with a single flow. I understand the scaling point, but =
speaking of common cases, any server in the wild is usually serving a =
large number of connections at moderate speeds, not a single one at =
25-35 Gbps... which makes that sort of scaling less exciting than in a =
microbenchmark.
>=20
> FWIW, the other downside of ECMP is that multipath transport doesn't =
work -- you need to hash on something else besides the 4-tuple. (We had =
to work around this in Google's deployment of connection migration.)
>=20
> I'll disagree with your point about reordering being the uncommon =
case. While that's true today, this is again an expectation that the =
network works hard to maintain, though the ecosystem and what we expect =
as "usual" would be quite different had we not built TCP's requirements =
into the network. There's nothing wrong with having n-modal latencies... =
we can engineer around that. Any sensible load distribution scheme =
within the network will give you increased variance but it should limit =
the worst-case latency. You'd perhaps agree that that's a net win.
>=20
> This was an example of how exposing packet number or not can have long =
term ecosystem effects. My point was about the fact that exposing can =
cause ossification.
>=20
> - jana
>=20
> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 9:24 AM, Praveen Balasubramanian =
<pravb@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >> This was definitely true for implementations of TCP, but that is =
TCP's problem, not the network's
>=20
> Flow classification happens through the network and also on the end =
host with RSS where a flow is mapped to a core. This allows for building =
high performance receive processing that could be lock free for the most =
part. The only downside of ECMP on the network and RSS on the CPU is =
that a single flow will not take multiple paths or get processed on more =
than one core. Windows on server machines today can saturate 25-35 Gbps =
for a single TCP connection before being CPU limited. This is a  =
reasonable trade off because I don=E2=80=99t know of cases where a =
single flow is driving more than that amount of traffic. Assumptions =
about how flows get classified help make for more efficient processing. =
They also lead to consistent latency. You do not want the traffic to =
take a bi-modal or N-modal paths (on the network or the host) to being =
processed because the fluctuations in latency will hurt the workload. I =
am not arguing for TCP not being resilient to reordering but IMO that =
should be the uncommon case not the common case. With QUIC if streams =
were exposed on the network you could take advantage of stream level =
ECMP and RSS to scale better than TCP but we have chosen to keep the =
4-tuple (or the 5-tuple) as the flow classifier on the network which is =
ok by me since it leads to TCP parity.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Thanks
>=20
>=20
>=20
> From: QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jana Iyengar
> Sent: Sunday, February 4, 2018 8:35 PM
> To: Salz, Rich <rsalz@akamai.com>
> Cc: Lubashev, Igor <ilubashe@akamai.com>; Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>; =
QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Privacy-protection can't be a user choice, for the reasons others have =
noted on this thread.
>=20
>=20
> That said, my primary argument is for encryption to avoid =
ossification. Not that it matters now, but I'll note that much of =
GQUIC's original motivation for encrypting headers was to avoid =
ossification.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> I'll reiterate that fields we expose will get ossified and there are =
long-term ecosystem effects to this. Let me illustrate this with =
precisely the packet number field. Middleboxes commonly assume that a =
TCP flow can only handle packets in-order. This assumption comes from =
the fact that TCP implementations get poor performance when packets are =
reordered. This was definitely true for implementations of TCP, but that =
is TCP's problem, not the network's. However, almost all load-balancers =
I know of now will pin all packets within a TCP flow to one path, =
leading to sub-optimal performance in the network, and destroying =
incentives for the endpoints to deploy reordering-resilient TCP =
implementations (even though there are plenty of ways of doing this.)
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Exposing QUIC's packet number field (as any field) is likely to have =
similar consequences and a similar ecosystem arc.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 7:51 PM, Salz, Rich <rsalz@akamai.com> wrote:
>=20
> > Optional security tends to devolve to non-secure.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> That=E2=80=99s a great aphorism.  And sadly all too true.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20


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From: Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 21:49:05 +0900
Message-ID: <CANatvzx+uDHMV5XS=OuVYBqe_RYX=EmVWAmjuONS8BpNYCPweA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
To: Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>
Cc: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>, "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>,  "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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2018-02-06 9:30 GMT+09:00 Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>:
> I don't think we're converging here, so I'd like to try and encourage us =
to
> move towards it. I have my opinion, but I care more about forward progres=
s
> at this point.
>
> There are three designs so far:
> 1. Packet numbers as is, with random gaps around migration.
> 2. Packet numbers encrypted, as per Martin's PR.
> 3. Packet numbers encrypted, plus a small modulo sequence number somewher=
e.

I wonder if we can provide opportunity to observe upstream loss /
reorder rate by just reserving one bit per packet.

The strawman is as follows.

Sender exposes one bit per packet that can be observed by on-path
devices. The bit is flipped for every 256 packets that the sender
sends. Observer records the bit of each packet as they pass by.

If there is no loss or reorder, the pattern an on-path device would
observe is repetition of 256 zeros and 256 ones. In other words, the
wavelength is 512 samples.

When there is a loss, the wavelength becomes shorter. The wavelength
becomes 512 * (1-loss_rate) samples. For example, if the wavelength
being observed is 384, loss rate is 25%.

If there is reorder, the edge (i.e. shift from zereos to ones, or vice
versa) becomes unclear. Duration of the transition will reflect the
extent of reordering.

Theoretically, it might be possible to explain the approach as a way
to let the sender emit a wave, then FFT the wave in on-path devices to
observe loss / reorder. Or it could be explained as just sending one
bit of the sequence number, somewhere in the middle (i.e., not LSB nor
MSB).

The pros of the approach is obvious; we will only spend 1 bit per
packet. Privacy impact is minimum. Implementing it is easy. Another
benefit is that it would be difficult (if not impossible) for on-path
devices to use the bit for purposes other than observation (i.e.,
change the ordering of the packets "for performance").

OTOH I am not sure how hard it would be to build tools for observing
upstream behavior using the proposed approach. Or I could well be
missing some requirements that operators have, as I am an endpoint
developer.

>
> The concrete ones here are (1) and (2).  I'm listing (3) but am not incli=
ned
> to consider it seriously, since it's not concrete enough, (and I don't wa=
nt
> more bits to be spent in the QUIC packet header if that's where this info
> goes.)
>
> There are opinions about ossification, privacy, and manageability. I'm no=
t
> hearing bloody murder, so for what it's worth, I'd like to stipulate firs=
t
> that we can all live with the final design, whichever one it is.  If anyo=
ne
> disagrees, please say so -- I think it'd be useful to hear if there are
> folks who think a particular design is fundamentally problematic.
>
> My opinion is still for (2) over (1), but I can live with either.
>
> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 3:32 PM, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com> wrote:
>>
>> Praveen,
>>
>> That was precisely my point about the ecosystem evolving. Now that we ha=
ve
>> the ability to classify flows, various things have been built around bei=
ng
>> able to tell TCP flows. This obviously has benefits as you point out, bu=
t
>> the downside is that that I can't get good network utilization with a si=
ngle
>> flow. I understand the scaling point, but speaking of common cases, any
>> server in the wild is usually serving a large number of connections at
>> moderate speeds, not a single one at 25-35 Gbps... which makes that sort=
 of
>> scaling less exciting than in a microbenchmark.
>>
>> FWIW, the other downside of ECMP is that multipath transport doesn't wor=
k
>> -- you need to hash on something else besides the 4-tuple. (We had to wo=
rk
>> around this in Google's deployment of connection migration.)
>>
>> I'll disagree with your point about reordering being the uncommon case.
>> While that's true today, this is again an expectation that the network w=
orks
>> hard to maintain, though the ecosystem and what we expect as "usual" wou=
ld
>> be quite different had we not built TCP's requirements into the network.
>> There's nothing wrong with having n-modal latencies... we can engineer
>> around that. Any sensible load distribution scheme within the network wi=
ll
>> give you increased variance but it should limit the worst-case latency.
>> You'd perhaps agree that that's a net win.
>>
>> This was an example of how exposing packet number or not can have long
>> term ecosystem effects. My point was about the fact that exposing can ca=
use
>> ossification.
>>
>> - jana
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 9:24 AM, Praveen Balasubramanian
>> <pravb@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> >> This was definitely true for implementations of TCP, but that is TCP=
's
>>> >> problem, not the network's
>>>
>>> Flow classification happens through the network and also on the end hos=
t
>>> with RSS where a flow is mapped to a core. This allows for building hig=
h
>>> performance receive processing that could be lock free for the most par=
t.
>>> The only downside of ECMP on the network and RSS on the CPU is that a s=
ingle
>>> flow will not take multiple paths or get processed on more than one cor=
e.
>>> Windows on server machines today can saturate 25-35 Gbps for a single T=
CP
>>> connection before being CPU limited. This is a  reasonable trade off be=
cause
>>> I don=E2=80=99t know of cases where a single flow is driving more than =
that amount
>>> of traffic. Assumptions about how flows get classified help make for mo=
re
>>> efficient processing. They also lead to consistent latency. You do not =
want
>>> the traffic to take a bi-modal or N-modal paths (on the network or the =
host)
>>> to being processed because the fluctuations in latency will hurt the
>>> workload. I am not arguing for TCP not being resilient to reordering bu=
t IMO
>>> that should be the uncommon case not the common case. With QUIC if stre=
ams
>>> were exposed on the network you could take advantage of stream level EC=
MP
>>> and RSS to scale better than TCP but we have chosen to keep the 4-tuple=
 (or
>>> the 5-tuple) as the flow classifier on the network which is ok by me si=
nce
>>> it leads to TCP parity.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jana Iyengar
>>> Sent: Sunday, February 4, 2018 8:35 PM
>>> To: Salz, Rich <rsalz@akamai.com>
>>> Cc: Lubashev, Igor <ilubashe@akamai.com>; Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>;
>>> QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
>>> Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Privacy-protection can't be a user choice, for the reasons others have
>>> noted on this thread.
>>>
>>>
>>> That said, my primary argument is for encryption to avoid ossification.
>>> Not that it matters now, but I'll note that much of GQUIC's original
>>> motivation for encrypting headers was to avoid ossification.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'll reiterate that fields we expose will get ossified and there are
>>> long-term ecosystem effects to this. Let me illustrate this with precis=
ely
>>> the packet number field. Middleboxes commonly assume that a TCP flow ca=
n
>>> only handle packets in-order. This assumption comes from the fact that =
TCP
>>> implementations get poor performance when packets are reordered. This w=
as
>>> definitely true for implementations of TCP, but that is TCP's problem, =
not
>>> the network's. However, almost all load-balancers I know of now will pi=
n all
>>> packets within a TCP flow to one path, leading to sub-optimal performan=
ce in
>>> the network, and destroying incentives for the endpoints to deploy
>>> reordering-resilient TCP implementations (even though there are plenty =
of
>>> ways of doing this.)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Exposing QUIC's packet number field (as any field) is likely to have
>>> similar consequences and a similar ecosystem arc.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 7:51 PM, Salz, Rich <rsalz@akamai.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Optional security tends to devolve to non-secure.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> That=E2=80=99s a great aphorism.  And sadly all too true.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>



--=20
Kazuho Oku


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From: =?UTF-8?Q?Mikkel_Fahn=C3=B8e_J=C3=B8rgensen?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
To: "Brian Trammell (IETF)" <ietf@trammell.ch>, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>
Cc: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>, "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>,  Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>
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Some overhead considerations of packet encryption:

Sensor and control devices:

The power overhead on sensor networks is small compared to just listening
on the radio and if not using radio, the latency is probably not critical
compared to the speed of encryption. To be a bit sci-fi - low-latency
encrypted control signals in robotics might be relevant. Think exo-skeleton
hacked by enemy through targeted signal injection. Still, packet number
encryption is likely fast enough in such cases.

For servers:

The overhead of packet encryption (single block AES-CTR) is probably around
100 cycles with AES-NI and possibly 160 cycles table based for one block
for Intel arch. This is because parallel multi-block optimisations are not
possible. AES-CTR of one block is about the same as AES-CTR of 4 blocks,
and GCM auth tag adds perhaps 50% to that. Thus packet number encryption
might be twice as fast as AES-GCM of a 64 byte message which is still a 50%
overhead.

High speed low latency applications might receive a packet concurrently on
two cores, one with a fast path reacting specifically to packets containing
only small stream messages, and one core handling everything else. The
message handler could experience a delay of 50% compared to not encrypting
packet numbers.

It is not possible to significantly improve on this in hardware because the
packet number must be decrypted before AEAD can be applied. That is, unless
the encrypted packet number is used as the IV of AEAD in which case
encryption gets a new bottleneck but decryption can be processed faster.

My take is that I prefer to avoid packet number gaps because they are messy
and I don=E2=80=99t believe they provide any significant privacy, but I als=
o don=E2=80=99t
like the crypto cost in low-latency scenarios.

If the argument is for ossification and not privacy, I think the encryption
is the only option as Marten has pointed out. For this reason it makes
sense to apply crypto. Low-latency systems could create a QUIC variant that
drops the packet encryption.

Mikkel

On 6 February 2018 at 11.13.40, Brian Trammell (IETF) (ietf@trammell.ch)
wrote:


> On 6 Feb 2018, at 01:30, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com> wrote:
>
> I don't think we're converging here, so I'd like to try and encourage us
to move towards it. I have my opinion, but I care more about forward
progress at this point.
>
> There are three designs so far:
> 1. Packet numbers as is, with random gaps around migration.
> 2. Packet numbers encrypted, as per Martin's PR.
> 3. Packet numbers encrypted, plus a small modulo sequence number
somewhere.
>
> The concrete ones here are (1) and (2). I'm listing (3) but am not
inclined to consider it seriously, since it's not concrete enough, (and I
don't want more bits to be spent in the QUIC packet header if that's where
this info goes.)

Unsurprisingly, I'm still for (3). :)

If a concrete proposal would incline you to consider it seriously, I'm
happy to write one or two points in this space up, probably for the list at
first. (Indeed, I'll probably go ahead and do this anyway today).

> There are opinions about ossification, privacy, and manageability. I'm
not hearing bloody murder, so for what it's worth, I'd like to stipulate
first that we can all live with the final design, whichever one it is. If
anyone disagrees, please say so -- I think it'd be useful to hear if there
are folks who think a particular design is fundamentally problematic.
>
> My opinion is still for (2) over (1), but I can live with either.

FWIW, I prefer (2) over (1) as well, modulo a little discomfort about the
crypto: the proposed encryption scheme uses a secret derived from the
end-to-end secret to ECB-encrypt a plaintext which is completely known to
an on-path observer in a place to see all packets in the common case that
packets are neither lost nor reordered on the path -- namely the sequence
0x00 - 0x3f, 0x4000 - 0x7fff and so on. I Am Not A Cryptographer, but that
property of this algorithm used in this way screams "Call A Cryptographer
Before Deploying" to me.)

Cheers,

Brian


> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 3:32 PM, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com> wrote:
> Praveen,
>
> That was precisely my point about the ecosystem evolving. Now that we
have the ability to classify flows, various things have been built around
being able to tell TCP flows. This obviously has benefits as you point out,
but the downside is that that I can't get good network utilization with a
single flow. I understand the scaling point, but speaking of common cases,
any server in the wild is usually serving a large number of connections at
moderate speeds, not a single one at 25-35 Gbps... which makes that sort of
scaling less exciting than in a microbenchmark.
>
> FWIW, the other downside of ECMP is that multipath transport doesn't work
-- you need to hash on something else besides the 4-tuple. (We had to work
around this in Google's deployment of connection migration.)
>
> I'll disagree with your point about reordering being the uncommon case.
While that's true today, this is again an expectation that the network
works hard to maintain, though the ecosystem and what we expect as "usual"
would be quite different had we not built TCP's requirements into the
network. There's nothing wrong with having n-modal latencies... we can
engineer around that. Any sensible load distribution scheme within the
network will give you increased variance but it should limit the worst-case
latency. You'd perhaps agree that that's a net win.
>
> This was an example of how exposing packet number or not can have long
term ecosystem effects. My point was about the fact that exposing can cause
ossification.
>
> - jana
>
> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 9:24 AM, Praveen Balasubramanian <
pravb@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >> This was definitely true for implementations of TCP, but that is TCP's
problem, not the network's
>
> Flow classification happens through the network and also on the end host
with RSS where a flow is mapped to a core. This allows for building high
performance receive processing that could be lock free for the most part.
The only downside of ECMP on the network and RSS on the CPU is that a
single flow will not take multiple paths or get processed on more than one
core. Windows on server machines today can saturate 25-35 Gbps for a single
TCP connection before being CPU limited. This is a reasonable trade off
because I don=E2=80=99t know of cases where a single flow is driving more t=
han that
amount of traffic. Assumptions about how flows get classified help make for
more efficient processing. They also lead to consistent latency. You do not
want the traffic to take a bi-modal or N-modal paths (on the network or the
host) to being processed because the fluctuations in latency will hurt the
workload. I am not arguing for TCP not being resilient to reordering but
IMO that should be the uncommon case not the common case. With QUIC if
streams were exposed on the network you could take advantage of stream
level ECMP and RSS to scale better than TCP but we have chosen to keep the
4-tuple (or the 5-tuple) as the flow classifier on the network which is ok
by me since it leads to TCP parity.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> From: QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jana Iyengar
> Sent: Sunday, February 4, 2018 8:35 PM
> To: Salz, Rich <rsalz@akamai.com>
> Cc: Lubashev, Igor <ilubashe@akamai.com>; Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>;
QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
>
>
>
> Privacy-protection can't be a user choice, for the reasons others have
noted on this thread.
>
>
> That said, my primary argument is for encryption to avoid ossification.
Not that it matters now, but I'll note that much of GQUIC's original
motivation for encrypting headers was to avoid ossification.
>
>
>
> I'll reiterate that fields we expose will get ossified and there are
long-term ecosystem effects to this. Let me illustrate this with precisely
the packet number field. Middleboxes commonly assume that a TCP flow can
only handle packets in-order. This assumption comes from the fact that TCP
implementations get poor performance when packets are reordered. This was
definitely true for implementations of TCP, but that is TCP's problem, not
the network's. However, almost all load-balancers I know of now will pin
all packets within a TCP flow to one path, leading to sub-optimal
performance in the network, and destroying incentives for the endpoints to
deploy reordering-resilient TCP implementations (even though there are
plenty of ways of doing this.)
>
>
>
> Exposing QUIC's packet number field (as any field) is likely to have
similar consequences and a similar ecosystem arc.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 7:51 PM, Salz, Rich <rsalz@akamai.com> wrote:
>
> > Optional security tends to devolve to non-secure.
>
>
>
> That=E2=80=99s a great aphorism. And sadly all too true.
>
>
>
>
>

--001a1144b82892eefa05648b3fb7
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">Some overhead consid=
erations of packet encryption:</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"f=
ont-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;=
line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-fami=
ly:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-hei=
ght:auto">Sensor and control devices:</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" sty=
le=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);marg=
in:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"fo=
nt-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;l=
ine-height:auto"><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"margin:0px">The powe=
r overhead on sensor networks is small compared to just listening on the ra=
dio and if not using radio, the latency is probably not critical compared t=
o the speed of encryption. To be a bit sci-fi - low-latency encrypted contr=
ol signals in robotics might be relevant. Think exo-skeleton hacked by enem=
y through targeted signal injection. Still, packet number encryption is lik=
ely fast enough in such cases.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"m=
argin:0px"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"margin:0px">For =
servers:</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><=
/div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font=
-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">The overhead =
of packet encryption (single block AES-CTR) is probably around 100 cycles w=
ith AES-NI and possibly 160 cycles table based for one block for Intel arch=
. This is because parallel multi-block optimisations are not possible. AES-=
CTR of one block is about the same as AES-CTR of 4 blocks, and GCM auth tag=
 adds perhaps 50% to that. Thus packet number encryption might be twice as =
fast as AES-GCM of a 64 byte message which is still a 50% overhead.</div><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D=
"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;colo=
r:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">High speed low latency appli=
cations might receive a packet concurrently on two cores, one with a fast p=
ath reacting specifically to packets containing only small stream messages,=
 and one core handling everything else. The message handler could experienc=
e a delay of 50% compared to not encrypting packet numbers.</div><div id=3D=
"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;colo=
r:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_c=
ustomfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0=
,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">It is not possible to significantly =
improve on this in hardware because the packet number must be decrypted bef=
ore AEAD can be applied. That is, unless the encrypted packet number is use=
d as the IV of AEAD in which case encryption gets a new bottleneck but decr=
yption can be processed faster.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"=
font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px=
;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-fam=
ily:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-he=
ight:auto">My take is that I prefer to avoid packet number gaps because the=
y are messy and I don=E2=80=99t believe they provide any significant privac=
y, but I also don=E2=80=99t like the crypto cost in low-latency scenarios.<=
/div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font=
-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><di=
v id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13=
px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">If the argument is fo=
r ossification and not privacy, I think the encryption is the only option a=
s Marten has pointed out. For this reason it makes sense to apply crypto. L=
ow-latency systems could create a QUIC variant that drops the packet encryp=
tion.</div> <div><br></div>Mikkel<br><p class=3D"airmail_on">On 6 February =
2018 at 11.13.40, Brian Trammell (IETF) (<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@trammell.ch=
">ietf@trammell.ch</a>) wrote:</p> <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean=
_bq"><span><div><div></div><div>
<br>&gt; On 6 Feb 2018, at 01:30, Jana Iyengar &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jri@go=
ogle.com">jri@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; I don&#39;t think we&#39;re converging here, so I&#39;d like to tr=
y and encourage us to move towards it. I have my opinion, but I care more a=
bout forward progress at this point.
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; There are three designs so far:
<br>&gt; 1. Packet numbers as is, with random gaps around migration.
<br>&gt; 2. Packet numbers encrypted, as per Martin&#39;s PR.
<br>&gt; 3. Packet numbers encrypted, plus a small modulo sequence number s=
omewhere.
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; The concrete ones here are (1) and (2).  I&#39;m listing (3) but a=
m not inclined to consider it seriously, since it&#39;s not concrete enough=
, (and I don&#39;t want more bits to be spent in the QUIC packet header if =
that&#39;s where this info goes.)
<br>
<br>Unsurprisingly, I&#39;m still for (3). :)
<br>
<br>If a concrete proposal would incline you to consider it seriously, I&#3=
9;m happy to write one or two points in this space up, probably for the lis=
t at first. (Indeed, I&#39;ll probably go ahead and do this anyway today).
<br>
<br>&gt; There are opinions about ossification, privacy, and manageability.=
 I&#39;m not hearing bloody murder, so for what it&#39;s worth, I&#39;d lik=
e to stipulate first that we can all live with the final design, whichever =
one it is.  If anyone disagrees, please say so -- I think it&#39;d be usefu=
l to hear if there are folks who think a particular design is fundamentally=
 problematic.
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; My opinion is still for (2) over (1), but I can live with either.
<br>
<br>FWIW, I prefer (2) over (1) as well, modulo a little discomfort about t=
he crypto: the proposed encryption scheme uses a secret derived from the en=
d-to-end secret to ECB-encrypt a plaintext which is completely known to an =
on-path observer in a place to see all packets in the common case that pack=
ets are neither lost nor reordered on the path -- namely the sequence 0x00 =
- 0x3f, 0x4000 - 0x7fff and so on. I Am Not A Cryptographer, but that prope=
rty of this algorithm used in this way screams &quot;Call A Cryptographer B=
efore Deploying&quot; to me.)
<br>
<br>Cheers,
<br>
<br>Brian
<br>
<br>
<br>&gt; On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 3:32 PM, Jana Iyengar &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:jri@google.com">jri@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:
<br>&gt; Praveen,
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; That was precisely my point about the ecosystem evolving. Now that=
 we have the ability to classify flows, various things have been built arou=
nd being able to tell TCP flows. This obviously has benefits as you point o=
ut, but the downside is that that I can&#39;t get good network utilization =
with a single flow. I understand the scaling point, but speaking of common =
cases, any server in the wild is usually serving a large number of connecti=
ons at moderate speeds, not a single one at 25-35 Gbps... which makes that =
sort of scaling less exciting than in a microbenchmark.
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; FWIW, the other downside of ECMP is that multipath transport doesn=
&#39;t work -- you need to hash on something else besides the 4-tuple. (We =
had to work around this in Google&#39;s deployment of connection migration.=
)
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; I&#39;ll disagree with your point about reordering being the uncom=
mon case. While that&#39;s true today, this is again an expectation that th=
e network works hard to maintain, though the ecosystem and what we expect a=
s &quot;usual&quot; would be quite different had we not built TCP&#39;s req=
uirements into the network. There&#39;s nothing wrong with having n-modal l=
atencies... we can engineer around that. Any sensible load distribution sch=
eme within the network will give you increased variance but it should limit=
 the worst-case latency. You&#39;d perhaps agree that that&#39;s a net win.
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; This was an example of how exposing packet number or not can have =
long term ecosystem effects. My point was about the fact that exposing can =
cause ossification.
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; - jana
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 9:24 AM, Praveen Balasubramanian &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:pravb@microsoft.com">pravb@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:
<br>&gt; &gt;&gt; This was definitely true for implementations of TCP, but =
that is TCP&#39;s problem, not the network&#39;s
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; Flow classification happens through the network and also on the en=
d host with RSS where a flow is mapped to a core. This allows for building =
high performance receive processing that could be lock free for the most pa=
rt. The only downside of ECMP on the network and RSS on the CPU is that a s=
ingle flow will not take multiple paths or get processed on more than one c=
ore. Windows on server machines today can saturate 25-35 Gbps for a single =
TCP connection before being CPU limited. This is a  reasonable trade off be=
cause I don=E2=80=99t know of cases where a single flow is driving more tha=
n that amount of traffic. Assumptions about how flows get classified help m=
ake for more efficient processing. They also lead to consistent latency. Yo=
u do not want the traffic to take a bi-modal or N-modal paths (on the netwo=
rk or the host) to being processed because the fluctuations in latency will=
 hurt the workload. I am not arguing for TCP not being resilient to reorder=
ing but IMO that should be the uncommon case not the common case. With QUIC=
 if streams were exposed on the network you could take advantage of stream =
level ECMP and RSS to scale better than TCP but we have chosen to keep the =
4-tuple (or the 5-tuple) as the flow classifier on the network which is ok =
by me since it leads to TCP parity.
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; Thanks
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; From: QUIC [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org">quic-b=
ounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Jana Iyengar
<br>&gt; Sent: Sunday, February 4, 2018 8:35 PM
<br>&gt; To: Salz, Rich &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rsalz@akamai.com">rsalz@akama=
i.com</a>&gt;
<br>&gt; Cc: Lubashev, Igor &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ilubashe@akamai.com">ilub=
ashe@akamai.com</a>&gt;; Roberto Peon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.com">f=
enix@fb.com</a>&gt;; QUIC WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@ietf=
.org</a>&gt;
<br>&gt; Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; Privacy-protection can&#39;t be a user choice, for the reasons oth=
ers have noted on this thread.
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; That said, my primary argument is for encryption to avoid ossifica=
tion. Not that it matters now, but I&#39;ll note that much of GQUIC&#39;s o=
riginal motivation for encrypting headers was to avoid ossification.
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; I&#39;ll reiterate that fields we expose will get ossified and the=
re are long-term ecosystem effects to this. Let me illustrate this with pre=
cisely the packet number field. Middleboxes commonly assume that a TCP flow=
 can only handle packets in-order. This assumption comes from the fact that=
 TCP implementations get poor performance when packets are reordered. This =
was definitely true for implementations of TCP, but that is TCP&#39;s probl=
em, not the network&#39;s. However, almost all load-balancers I know of now=
 will pin all packets within a TCP flow to one path, leading to sub-optimal=
 performance in the network, and destroying incentives for the endpoints to=
 deploy reordering-resilient TCP implementations (even though there are ple=
nty of ways of doing this.)
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; Exposing QUIC&#39;s packet number field (as any field) is likely t=
o have similar consequences and a similar ecosystem arc.
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 7:51 PM, Salz, Rich &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:r=
salz@akamai.com">rsalz@akamai.com</a>&gt; wrote:
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; &gt; Optional security tends to devolve to non-secure.
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; That=E2=80=99s a great aphorism.  And sadly all too true.
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; =20
<br>
<br></div></div></span></blockquote></body></html>

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Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
To: "Brian Trammell (IETF)" <ietf@trammell.ch>, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>
Cc: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>, "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>,  Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>
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On 6 February 2018 at 14.35.12, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen (mikkelfj=
@gmail.com)
wrote:

Low-latency systems could create a QUIC variant that drops the packet
encryption.

I meant drop the packet number encryption, not the full AEAD.

--001a1140d944925fa005648b5c06
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<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">On 6 February 2018 a=
t 14.35.12, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen (<a href=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@g=
mail.com">mikkelfj@gmail.com</a>) wrote:</div> <div><blockquote type=3D"cit=
e" class=3D"clean_bq" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;f=
ont-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing=
:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:no=
rmal;word-spacing:0px"><span><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-fami=
ly:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:norma=
l;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px=
;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:r=
gb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline!important">Low-latency systems co=
uld create a QUIC variant that drops the packet encryption.</span></div></s=
pan></blockquote></div><p>I meant drop the packet number encryption, not th=
e full AEAD.</p><div></div></body></html>

--001a1140d944925fa005648b5c06--


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Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
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Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 15:20:34 +0100
Cc: Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>, Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>, "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>
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To: Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>
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I'd like to agree with Ted on this one.

Specifically I think we are discussing exposing some specific information in=
 a header to assist in measurement and operations.

To me, this includes considering  the possibility that these specific fields=
 could become ossified - but looking back at the thread, I think it is impor=
tant also to note that such ossification is to the exposed info. It would NO=
T ossify the QUIC recovery, CC, flow control, options negotiation, etc - bec=
ause these protocol mechanisms would not be exposed. This is in contrast to w=
hat happened to TCP!=20

Gorry
=20
----

> On 6 Feb 2018, at 01:49, Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 4:30 PM, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com> wrote:
>> I don't think we're converging here, so I'd like to try and encourage us t=
o move towards it. I have my opinion, but I care more about forward progress=
 at this point.
>>=20
>> There are three designs so far:
>> 1. Packet numbers as is, with random gaps around migration.
>> 2. Packet numbers encrypted, as per Martin's PR.
>> 3. Packet numbers encrypted, plus a small modulo sequence number somewher=
e.
>>=20
>> The concrete ones here are (1) and (2).  I'm listing (3) but am not incli=
ned to consider it seriously, since it's not concrete enough, (and I don't w=
ant more bits to be spent in the QUIC packet header if that's where this inf=
o goes.)
>>=20
>=20
> If you'll forgive my saying so, evidence suggests that so many of the conc=
rete aspects of such a proposal (where the bits would live, how many bits, e=
tc.) would change over the lifetime of a proposal in this WG that any comple=
tely nailed down suggestion might as well be a blank sheet for all the beari=
ng it would have on the final placement and length.
>=20
> The question is:  do we wish to expose a small sequence number to assist i=
n network analysis and management, yes or no? =20
>=20
> We can argue over the bike shed color after making the decision to build a=
 shed; requiring the shed have a color before considering the question seems=
 less productive to me than just answering the question.
>=20
> Just my personal opinion, of course.
>=20
> Ted
>=20
> =20
>> There are opinions about ossification, privacy, and manageability. I'm no=
t hearing bloody murder, so for what it's worth, I'd like to stipulate first=
 that we can all live with the final design, whichever one it is.  If anyone=
 disagrees, please say so -- I think it'd be useful to hear if there are fol=
ks who think a particular design is fundamentally problematic.
>>=20
>> My opinion is still for (2) over (1), but I can live with either.
>>=20
>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 3:32 PM, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com> wrote:
>>> Praveen,
>>>=20
>>> That was precisely my point about the ecosystem evolving. Now that we ha=
ve the ability to classify flows, various things have been built around bein=
g able to tell TCP flows. This obviously has benefits as you point out, but t=
he downside is that that I can't get good network utilization with a single f=
low. I understand the scaling point, but speaking of common cases, any serve=
r in the wild is usually serving a large number of connections at moderate s=
peeds, not a single one at 25-35 Gbps... which makes that sort of scaling le=
ss exciting than in a microbenchmark.
>>>=20
>>> FWIW, the other downside of ECMP is that multipath transport doesn't wor=
k -- you need to hash on something else besides the 4-tuple. (We had to work=
 around this in Google's deployment of connection migration.)
>>>=20
>>> I'll disagree with your point about reordering being the uncommon case. W=
hile that's true today, this is again an expectation that the network works h=
ard to maintain, though the ecosystem and what we expect as "usual" would be=
 quite different had we not built TCP's requirements into the network. There=
's nothing wrong with having n-modal latencies... we can engineer around tha=
t. Any sensible load distribution scheme within the network will give you in=
creased variance but it should limit the worst-case latency. You'd perhaps a=
gree that that's a net win.
>>>=20
>>> This was an example of how exposing packet number or not can have long t=
erm ecosystem effects. My point was about the fact that exposing can cause o=
ssification.
>>>=20
>>> - jana
>>>=20
>>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 9:24 AM, Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsof=
t.com> wrote:
>>>> >> This was definitely true for implementations of TCP, but that is TCP=
's problem, not the network's
>>>>=20
>>>> Flow classification happens through the network and also on the end hos=
t with RSS where a flow is mapped to a core. This allows for building high p=
erformance receive processing that could be lock free for the most part. The=
 only downside of ECMP on the network and RSS on the CPU is that a single fl=
ow will not take multiple paths or get processed on more than one core. Wind=
ows on server machines today can saturate 25-35 Gbps for a single TCP connec=
tion before being CPU limited. This is a  reasonable trade off because I don=
=E2=80=99t know of cases where a single flow is driving more than that amoun=
t of traffic. Assumptions about how flows get classified help make for more e=
fficient processing. They also lead to consistent latency. You do not want t=
he traffic to take a bi-modal or N-modal paths (on the network or the host) t=
o being processed because the fluctuations in latency will hurt the workload=
. I am not arguing for TCP not being resilient to reordering but IMO that sh=
ould be the uncommon case not the common case. With QUIC if streams were exp=
osed on the network you could take advantage of stream level ECMP and RSS to=
 scale better than TCP but we have chosen to keep the 4-tuple (or the 5-tupl=
e) as the flow classifier on the network which is ok by me since it leads to=
 TCP parity.
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> Thanks
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> From: QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jana Iyengar
>>>> Sent: Sunday, February 4, 2018 8:35 PM
>>>> To: Salz, Rich <rsalz@akamai.com>
>>>> Cc: Lubashev, Igor <ilubashe@akamai.com>; Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>; Q=
UIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> Privacy-protection can't be a user choice, for the reasons others have n=
oted on this thread.=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> That said, my primary argument is for encryption to avoid ossification.=
 Not that it matters now, but I'll note that much of GQUIC's original motiva=
tion for encrypting headers was to avoid ossification.
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> I'll reiterate that fields we expose will get ossified and there are lo=
ng-term ecosystem effects to this. Let me illustrate this with precisely the=
 packet number field. Middleboxes commonly assume that a TCP flow can only h=
andle packets in-order. This assumption comes from the fact that TCP impleme=
ntations get poor performance when packets are reordered. This was definitel=
y true for implementations of TCP, but that is TCP's problem, not the networ=
k's. However, almost all load-balancers I know of now will pin all packets w=
ithin a TCP flow to one path, leading to sub-optimal performance in the netw=
ork, and destroying incentives for the endpoints to deploy reordering-resili=
ent TCP implementations (even though there are plenty of ways of doing this.=
)
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> Exposing QUIC's packet number field (as any field) is likely to have si=
milar consequences and a similar ecosystem arc.
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 7:51 PM, Salz, Rich <rsalz@akamai.com> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> > Optional security tends to devolve to non-secure.
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>> That=E2=80=99s a great aphorism.  And sadly all too true.
>>>>=20
>>>> =20
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>=20
>=20

--Apple-Mail-B2FBF19A-0D2C-487F-9C02-2C1D67481E5A
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div>I'd like to agree with Ted on this one=
.</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignatur=
e">Specifically I think we are discussing exposing some specific information=
 in a header to assist in measurement and operations.</div><div id=3D"AppleM=
ailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">To me, this includes c=
onsidering &nbsp;the possibility that these specific fields could become oss=
ified - but looking back at the thread, I think it is important also to note=
 that such ossification is to the exposed info. It would NOT ossify the QUIC=
 recovery, CC, flow control, options negotiation, etc - because these protoc=
ol mechanisms would not be exposed.&nbsp;<span style=3D"background-color: rg=
ba(255, 255, 255, 0);">This is in contrast to what happened to TCP!&nbsp;</s=
pan></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSigna=
ture">Gorry<br>&nbsp;<br>----</div><div><br>On 6 Feb 2018, at 01:49, Ted Har=
die &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ted.ietf@gmail.com">ted.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wro=
te:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">On Mon, Feb=
 5, 2018 at 4:30 PM, Jana Iyengar <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jr=
i@google.com" target=3D"_blank">jri@google.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><div=
 class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1=
ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">I don't think we're converging here, so I'd like to try=
 and encourage us to move towards it. I have my opinion, but I care more abo=
ut forward progress at this point.<div><br></div><div>There are three design=
s so far:</div><div>1. Packet numbers as is, with random gaps around migrati=
on.</div><div>2. Packet numbers encrypted, as per Martin's PR.</div><div>3. P=
acket numbers encrypted, plus a small modulo sequence number somewhere.</div=
><div><br></div><div>The concrete ones here are (1) and (2).&nbsp;&nbsp;<spa=
n style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small;=
font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;fon=
t-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tra=
nsform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255=
,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none=
;display:inline">I'm listing (3) but am not inclined to consider it seriousl=
y, since it's not concrete enough, (and I don't want more bits to be spent i=
n the QUIC packet header if that's where this info goes.)</span><br><br></di=
v></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>If you'll forgive my saying so, evi=
dence suggests that so many of the concrete aspects of such a proposal (wher=
e the bits would live, how many bits, etc.) would change over the lifetime o=
f a proposal in this WG that any completely nailed down suggestion might as w=
ell be a blank sheet for all the bearing it would have on the final placemen=
t and length.<br><br></div><div>The question is:&nbsp; do we wish to expose a=
 small sequence number to assist in network analysis and management, yes or n=
o?&nbsp; <br><br>We can argue over the bike shed color after making the deci=
sion to build a shed; requiring the shed have a color before considering the=
 question seems less productive to me than just answering the question.<br><=
br></div><div>Just my personal opinion, of course.<br><br></div><div>Ted<br>=
</div><div><br>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><d=
iv>There are opinions about ossification, privacy, and manageability. I'm no=
t hearing bloody murder, so for what it's worth, I'd like to stipulate first=
 that we can all live with the final design, whichever one it is.&nbsp; If a=
nyone disagrees, please say so -- I think it'd be useful to hear if there ar=
e folks who think a particular design is fundamentally problematic.</div><di=
v><br></div><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-s=
erif;font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-va=
riant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;tex=
t-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-de=
coration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;background-color:rgb(25=
5,255,255);float:none;display:inline">My opinion is still for (2) over (1), b=
ut I can live with either.</span><br></div></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div c=
lass=3D"h5"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon=
, Feb 5, 2018 at 3:32 PM, Jana Iyengar <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:jri@google.com" target=3D"_blank">jri@google.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Praveen,<div><br></div><div>=
<div style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:sma=
ll;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;=
font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-=
transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration-style:ini=
tial;text-decoration-color:initial"><div style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-f=
amily:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatu=
res:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;te=
xt-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s=
pacing:0px;text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial">That=
 was precisely my point about the ecosystem evolving. Now that we have the a=
bility to classify flows, various things have been built around being able t=
o tell TCP flows. This obviously has benefits as you point out, but the down=
side is that that I can't get good network utilization with a single flow. I=
 understand the scaling point, but s<span style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-=
family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligat=
ures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;t=
ext-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-=
spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;=
text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline">peaking of common c=
ases, any server in the wild is usually serving a large number of connection=
s at moderate speeds, not a single one at 25-35 Gbps... which makes that sor=
t of scaling less exciting than in a microbenchmark.</span></div><div style=3D=
"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small;font-style=
:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:4=
00;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:non=
e;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration-style:initial;text-dec=
oration-color:initial"><span style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,=
sans-serif;font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;f=
ont-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:sta=
rt;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;b=
ackground-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decorati=
on-color:initial;float:none;display:inline"><br></span></div><div style=3D"c=
olor:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small;font-style:n=
ormal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400=
;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;=
white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration-style:initial;text-decor=
ation-color:initial"><span style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sa=
ns-serif;font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;fon=
t-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start=
;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;bac=
kground-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration=
-color:initial;float:none;display:inline">FWIW, the other downside of ECMP i=
s that multipath transport doesn't work -- you need to hash on something els=
e besides the 4-tuple. (We had to work around this in Google's deployment of=
 connection migration.)</span></div></div></div><div><br></div><div>I'll dis=
agree with your point about reordering being the uncommon case. While that's=
 true today, this is again an expectation that the network works hard to mai=
ntain, though the ecosystem and what we expect as "usual" would be quite dif=
ferent had we not built TCP's requirements into the network. There's nothing=
 wrong with having n-modal latencies... we can engineer around that. Any sen=
sible load distribution scheme within the network will give you increased va=
riance but it should limit the worst-case latency. You'd perhaps agree that t=
hat's a net win.<br></div><div><br></div><div>This was an example of how exp=
osing packet number or not can have long term ecosystem effects. My point wa=
s about the fact that exposing can cause ossification.</div><span class=3D"m=
_-5376313852984361260HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><div><br></div><div>- j=
ana</div></font></span></div><div class=3D"m_-5376313852984361260HOEnZb"><di=
v class=3D"m_-5376313852984361260h5"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 9:24 AM, Praveen Balasubramanian <=
span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pravb@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank=
">pravb@microsoft.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"=
>





<div link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" lang=3D"EN-US">
<div class=3D"m_-5376313852984361260m_7095374182116324034m_20807592411720969=
71WordSection1"><span>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&gt;&gt; This was definitely true for implementations=
 of TCP, but that is TCP's problem, not the network's<u></u><u></u></p>
</span><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Flow classification happens through the networ=
k and also on the end host with RSS where a flow is mapped to a core. This a=
llows for building high performance receive processing that could be lock fr=
ee for the most part. The only downside
 of ECMP on the network and RSS on the CPU is that a single flow will not ta=
ke multiple paths or get processed on more than one core. Windows on server m=
achines today can saturate 25-35 Gbps for a single TCP connection before bei=
ng CPU limited. This is a &nbsp;reasonable
 trade off because I don=E2=80=99t know of cases where a single flow is driv=
ing more than that amount of traffic. Assumptions about how flows get classi=
fied help make for more efficient processing. They also lead to consistent l=
atency. You do not want the traffic to
 take a bi-modal or N-modal paths (on the network or the host) to being proc=
essed because the fluctuations in latency will hurt the workload. I am not a=
rguing for TCP not being resilient to reordering but IMO that should be the u=
ncommon case not the common
 case. With QUIC if streams were exposed on the network you could take advan=
tage of stream level ECMP and RSS to scale better than TCP but we have chose=
n to keep the 4-tuple (or the 5-tuple) as the flow classifier on the network=
 which is ok by me since it leads
 to TCP parity. <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span><b>From:</b> QUIC [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:qui=
c-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>On Behal=
f Of
</b>Jana Iyengar<br>
</span><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, February 4, 2018 8:35 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Salz, Rich &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rsalz@akamai.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">rsalz@akamai.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Lubashev, Igor &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ilubashe@akamai.com" target=3D=
"_blank">ilubashe@akamai.com</a>&gt;; Roberto Peon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fen=
ix@fb.com" target=3D"_blank">fenix@fb.com</a>&gt;; QUIC WG &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic@ietf.org</a>&gt;<span><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Packet number encryption<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Privacy-protection can't be a user choice, for the re=
asons others have noted on this thread.&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p><div><div cla=
ss=3D"m_-5376313852984361260m_7095374182116324034h5">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
That said, my primary argument is for encryption to avoid ossification. Not t=
hat it matters now, but I'll note that much of GQUIC's original motivation f=
or encrypting headers was to avoid ossification.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I'll reiterate that fields we expose will get ossifie=
d and there are long-term ecosystem effects to this. Let me illustrate this w=
ith precisely the packet number field. Middleboxes commonly assume that a TC=
P flow can only handle packets
 in-order. This assumption comes from the fact that TCP implementations get p=
oor performance when packets are reordered. This was definitely true for imp=
lementations of TCP, but that is TCP's problem, not the network's. However, a=
lmost all load-balancers I
 know of now will pin all packets within a TCP flow to one path, leading to s=
ub-optimal performance in the network, and destroying incentives for the end=
points to deploy reordering-resilient TCP implementations (even though there=
 are plenty of ways of doing
 this.)<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Exposing QUIC's packet number field (as any field) is=
 likely to have similar consequences and a similar ecosystem arc.<u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
</div></div></div><div><div class=3D"m_-5376313852984361260m_709537418211632=
4034h5">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 7:51 PM, Salz, Rich &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:rsalz@akamai.com" target=3D"_blank">rsalz@akamai.com</a>&gt; wro=
te:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in=
 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">&gt; Optional security tends=
 to devolve to non-secure.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"m_-5376313852984361260m_7095374182116324034m_2080759241172096971=
m-791487608242578504xmsonormal">&nbsp;<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-5376313852984361260m_7095374182116324034m_2080759241172096971=
m-791487608242578504xmsonormal">That=E2=80=99s a great aphorism.&nbsp; And s=
adly all too true.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>
</div></blockquote></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail-B2FBF19A-0D2C-487F-9C02-2C1D67481E5A--


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Subject: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image (was Re: Packet number encryption)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 15:30:53 +0100
In-Reply-To: <CANatvzx+uDHMV5XS=OuVYBqe_RYX=EmVWAmjuONS8BpNYCPweA@mail.gmail.com>
Cc: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
To: Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>
References: <CABkgnnVyo3MmWtVULiV=FJTnR528qfY8-OmKGWAs0bCvri-a_g@mail.gmail.com> <1F7FB3B8-A94C-4354-9944-FB09FB8DB68B@trammell.ch> <CABcZeBMbwdwyC9TxxHBLYaZKfNB-FG2wCGjqUZ_mNR-A1R47FA@mail.gmail.com> <9096e5ec-581e-875a-b1dd-bff0b05206fd@huitema.net> <CABkgnnWRQSAufwPss+qf=xAzCwRYeNNH8XLPm3yFaHxOb+ba4g@mail.gmail.com> <BF80500A-6277-45DC-8525-9C3FE138B76D@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <5A7191E0.6010003@erg.abdn.ac.uk> <5214AD93-8376-4B25-922F-AF5551CC2E95@netapp.com> <F990E064-E6F8-41A3-B791-F776C9955E15@nokia.com> <CAGD1bZab0GaZFsHwC+nw3AxxC4VusxMJ6oDanzk3dSDdWKAXdw@mail.gmail.com> <2C515BE8694C6F4B9B6A578BCAC32E2F83BA1443@MBX021-W3-CA-2.exch021.domain.local> <BY2PR15MB07757473DB9788558B902EB5CDF80@BY2PR15MB0775.namprd15.prod.outlook.com> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD861B7F@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> <e529144067624fcba636fc8c24ee3ff4@usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com> <BY2PR15MB07754D83A1721F2BD742359BCDFE0@BY2PR15MB0775.namprd15.prod.outlook.com> <2CD9DC43-D69B-43F0-8474-DFE798850A52@akamai.com> <CAGD1bZaUuNxqpDkn62B0wWcFD8=mCUWrAwWGG-rAOxH7Mf1=cQ@mail.gmail.com> <CY4PR21MB01334E30C7AF6AE75F58EEFDB6FE0@CY4PR21MB0133.namprd21.prod.outlook.com> <CAGD1bZaxrqzdkk0wxRaULwOTgg6wnrSrXNBK31s4uxdozaACBA@mail.gmail.com> <CAGD1bZbOAaSBcQw4nVtGuwRunaAW8MYHq9yPxNN6DdKHzt5HtQ@mail.gmail.com> <CANatvzx+uDHMV5XS=OuVYBqe_RYX=EmVWAmjuONS8BpNYCPweA@mail.gmail.com>
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hi Kazuho, all,

(splitting the thread, trimming recipients)

We've been kicking around a few ideas like this one around the office =
today, more or less as you were writing this...

> On 6 Feb 2018, at 13:49, Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> 2018-02-06 9:30 GMT+09:00 Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>:
>> I don't think we're converging here, so I'd like to try and encourage =
us to
>> move towards it. I have my opinion, but I care more about forward =
progress
>> at this point.
>>=20
>> There are three designs so far:
>> 1. Packet numbers as is, with random gaps around migration.
>> 2. Packet numbers encrypted, as per Martin's PR.
>> 3. Packet numbers encrypted, plus a small modulo sequence number =
somewhere.
>=20
> I wonder if we can provide opportunity to observe upstream loss /
> reorder rate by just reserving one bit per packet.
>=20
> The strawman is as follows.
>=20
> Sender exposes one bit per packet that can be observed by on-path
> devices. The bit is flipped for every 256 packets that the sender
> sends. Observer records the bit of each packet as they pass by.
>=20
> If there is no loss or reorder, the pattern an on-path device would
> observe is repetition of 256 zeros and 256 ones. In other words, the
> wavelength is 512 samples.
>=20
> When there is a loss, the wavelength becomes shorter. The wavelength
> becomes 512 * (1-loss_rate) samples. For example, if the wavelength
> being observed is 384, loss rate is 25%.
>=20
> If there is reorder, the edge (i.e. shift from zereos to ones, or vice
> versa) becomes unclear. Duration of the transition will reflect the
> extent of reordering.

This is a pretty cool idea, but it doesn't provide enough information to =
protect the spin bit from reordering. This could be easily fixed by =
moving to a two-bit spin, as Gorry (I think) suggested. Among other =
things in this space, Piet's also looking into how much reordering =
information could be extracted from a two-bit spin itself.

There's a little complexity here -- you'd ideally like the starting =
point to depend on the window size, which you actually don't know at the =
starting point, and so on and so forth, but those are details.

> Theoretically, it might be possible to explain the approach as a way
> to let the sender emit a wave, then FFT the wave in on-path devices to
> observe loss / reorder. Or it could be explained as just sending one
> bit of the sequence number, somewhere in the middle (i.e., not LSB nor
> MSB).
>=20
> The pros of the approach is obvious; we will only spend 1 bit per
> packet. Privacy impact is minimum. Implementing it is easy. Another
> benefit is that it would be difficult (if not impossible) for on-path
> devices to use the bit for purposes other than observation (i.e.,
> change the ordering of the packets "for performance").
>=20
> OTOH I am not sure how hard it would be to build tools for observing
> upstream behavior using the proposed approach. Or I could well be
> missing some requirements that operators have, as I am an endpoint
> developer.

It's generally not the computational complexity of the task at a passive =
measurement point that is limiting to passive observation, it's the I/O =
(i.e. the amount of data that must be analyzed to generate a useful =
observation, and how far that data needs to be transmitted). Approaches =
like this one that trade off additional analysis-time complexity for =
ease of implementation and endpoint runtime simplicity are where we want =
to look, IMO.

Cheers,

Brian

>> The concrete ones here are (1) and (2).  I'm listing (3) but am not =
inclined
>> to consider it seriously, since it's not concrete enough, (and I =
don't want
>> more bits to be spent in the QUIC packet header if that's where this =
info
>> goes.)
>>=20
>> There are opinions about ossification, privacy, and manageability. =
I'm not
>> hearing bloody murder, so for what it's worth, I'd like to stipulate =
first
>> that we can all live with the final design, whichever one it is.  If =
anyone
>> disagrees, please say so -- I think it'd be useful to hear if there =
are
>> folks who think a particular design is fundamentally problematic.
>>=20
>> My opinion is still for (2) over (1), but I can live with either.
>>=20
>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 3:32 PM, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Praveen,
>>>=20
>>> That was precisely my point about the ecosystem evolving. Now that =
we have
>>> the ability to classify flows, various things have been built around =
being
>>> able to tell TCP flows. This obviously has benefits as you point =
out, but
>>> the downside is that that I can't get good network utilization with =
a single
>>> flow. I understand the scaling point, but speaking of common cases, =
any
>>> server in the wild is usually serving a large number of connections =
at
>>> moderate speeds, not a single one at 25-35 Gbps... which makes that =
sort of
>>> scaling less exciting than in a microbenchmark.
>>>=20
>>> FWIW, the other downside of ECMP is that multipath transport doesn't =
work
>>> -- you need to hash on something else besides the 4-tuple. (We had =
to work
>>> around this in Google's deployment of connection migration.)
>>>=20
>>> I'll disagree with your point about reordering being the uncommon =
case.
>>> While that's true today, this is again an expectation that the =
network works
>>> hard to maintain, though the ecosystem and what we expect as "usual" =
would
>>> be quite different had we not built TCP's requirements into the =
network.
>>> There's nothing wrong with having n-modal latencies... we can =
engineer
>>> around that. Any sensible load distribution scheme within the =
network will
>>> give you increased variance but it should limit the worst-case =
latency.
>>> You'd perhaps agree that that's a net win.
>>>=20
>>> This was an example of how exposing packet number or not can have =
long
>>> term ecosystem effects. My point was about the fact that exposing =
can cause
>>> ossification.
>>>=20
>>> - jana
>>>=20
>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 9:24 AM, Praveen Balasubramanian
>>> <pravb@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>>> This was definitely true for implementations of TCP, but that is =
TCP's
>>>>>> problem, not the network's
>>>>=20
>>>> Flow classification happens through the network and also on the end =
host
>>>> with RSS where a flow is mapped to a core. This allows for building =
high
>>>> performance receive processing that could be lock free for the most =
part.
>>>> The only downside of ECMP on the network and RSS on the CPU is that =
a single
>>>> flow will not take multiple paths or get processed on more than one =
core.
>>>> Windows on server machines today can saturate 25-35 Gbps for a =
single TCP
>>>> connection before being CPU limited. This is a  reasonable trade =
off because
>>>> I don=E2=80=99t know of cases where a single flow is driving more =
than that amount
>>>> of traffic. Assumptions about how flows get classified help make =
for more
>>>> efficient processing. They also lead to consistent latency. You do =
not want
>>>> the traffic to take a bi-modal or N-modal paths (on the network or =
the host)
>>>> to being processed because the fluctuations in latency will hurt =
the
>>>> workload. I am not arguing for TCP not being resilient to =
reordering but IMO
>>>> that should be the uncommon case not the common case. With QUIC if =
streams
>>>> were exposed on the network you could take advantage of stream =
level ECMP
>>>> and RSS to scale better than TCP but we have chosen to keep the =
4-tuple (or
>>>> the 5-tuple) as the flow classifier on the network which is ok by =
me since
>>>> it leads to TCP parity.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Thanks
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> From: QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jana Iyengar
>>>> Sent: Sunday, February 4, 2018 8:35 PM
>>>> To: Salz, Rich <rsalz@akamai.com>
>>>> Cc: Lubashev, Igor <ilubashe@akamai.com>; Roberto Peon =
<fenix@fb.com>;
>>>> QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Privacy-protection can't be a user choice, for the reasons others =
have
>>>> noted on this thread.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> That said, my primary argument is for encryption to avoid =
ossification.
>>>> Not that it matters now, but I'll note that much of GQUIC's =
original
>>>> motivation for encrypting headers was to avoid ossification.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> I'll reiterate that fields we expose will get ossified and there =
are
>>>> long-term ecosystem effects to this. Let me illustrate this with =
precisely
>>>> the packet number field. Middleboxes commonly assume that a TCP =
flow can
>>>> only handle packets in-order. This assumption comes from the fact =
that TCP
>>>> implementations get poor performance when packets are reordered. =
This was
>>>> definitely true for implementations of TCP, but that is TCP's =
problem, not
>>>> the network's. However, almost all load-balancers I know of now =
will pin all
>>>> packets within a TCP flow to one path, leading to sub-optimal =
performance in
>>>> the network, and destroying incentives for the endpoints to deploy
>>>> reordering-resilient TCP implementations (even though there are =
plenty of
>>>> ways of doing this.)
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Exposing QUIC's packet number field (as any field) is likely to =
have
>>>> similar consequences and a similar ecosystem arc.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 7:51 PM, Salz, Rich <rsalz@akamai.com> =
wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>> Optional security tends to devolve to non-secure.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> That=E2=80=99s a great aphorism.  And sadly all too true.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --
> Kazuho Oku


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Subject: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image (was Re: Packet number encryption)
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 15:46:36 +0100
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Cc: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
To: Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>
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hi Ted,

(trimming, forking, #include apologies for google/apple mail =
shenanigans)

> On 6 Feb 2018, at 01:49, Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 4:30 PM, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com> wrote:
> I don't think we're converging here, so I'd like to try and encourage =
us to move towards it. I have my opinion, but I care more about forward =
progress at this point.
>=20
> There are three designs so far:
> 1. Packet numbers as is, with random gaps around migration.
> 2. Packet numbers encrypted, as per Martin's PR.
> 3. Packet numbers encrypted, plus a small modulo sequence number =
somewhere.
>=20
> The concrete ones here are (1) and (2).  I'm listing (3) but am not =
inclined to consider it seriously, since it's not concrete enough, (and =
I don't want more bits to be spent in the QUIC packet header if that's =
where this info goes.)
>=20
>=20
> If you'll forgive my saying so, evidence suggests that so many of the =
concrete aspects of such a proposal (where the bits would live, how many =
bits, etc.) would change over the lifetime of a proposal in this WG that =
any completely nailed down suggestion might as well be a blank sheet for =
all the bearing it would have on the final placement and length.

Heh. Indeed.

> The question is:  do we wish to expose a small sequence number to =
assist in network analysis and management, yes or no?

A friendly amendment to refine this question, since I think it =
presupposes too much about the shape and color of said blank sheet of =
paper: do we wish to expose a signal that is designed to meet the =
following requirements:

- assist in on-path detection and measurement of upstream packet loss
- assist in on-path detection and measurement or upstream packet =
reordering
- improve the passive measurement of RTT in the presence of reordering =
(i.e., fix the spin bit to work without the packet number)

We (without the encryption PR) already have a single (implicit) signal =
for these three requirements, but we can without too much thought =
already see a few ways to add an implicit signal back in, probably even =
using only bits vacated in the short header by making encrypted packet =
numbers use varint encoding.

+1 to Ted: if we could at least come to consensus as a WG that these =
requirements are important, then we can separate these two discussions. =
Let's reserve some bits in the header, let those of us who care about =
the shape of the measurement nybble go off and work on a concrete =
proposal, and move on.

Cheers,

Brian

> We can argue over the bike shed color after making the decision to =
build a shed; requiring the shed have a color before considering the =
question seems less productive to me than just answering the question.
>=20
> Just my personal opinion, of course.
>=20
> Ted
>=20


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From: "Roni Even (A)" <roni.even@huawei.com>
To: "Brian Trammell (IETF)" <ietf@trammell.ch>, Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>
CC: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image (was Re: Packet number encryption)
Thread-Topic: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image (was Re: Packet number encryption)
Thread-Index: AQHTn1lW9weAa8mzzUyvUmOH39MiCaOXdRyQ
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 14:52:18 +0000
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References: <CABkgnnVyo3MmWtVULiV=FJTnR528qfY8-OmKGWAs0bCvri-a_g@mail.gmail.com> <1F7FB3B8-A94C-4354-9944-FB09FB8DB68B@trammell.ch> <CABcZeBMbwdwyC9TxxHBLYaZKfNB-FG2wCGjqUZ_mNR-A1R47FA@mail.gmail.com> <9096e5ec-581e-875a-b1dd-bff0b05206fd@huitema.net> <CABkgnnWRQSAufwPss+qf=xAzCwRYeNNH8XLPm3yFaHxOb+ba4g@mail.gmail.com> <BF80500A-6277-45DC-8525-9C3FE138B76D@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <5A7191E0.6010003@erg.abdn.ac.uk> <5214AD93-8376-4B25-922F-AF5551CC2E95@netapp.com> <F990E064-E6F8-41A3-B791-F776C9955E15@nokia.com> <CAGD1bZab0GaZFsHwC+nw3AxxC4VusxMJ6oDanzk3dSDdWKAXdw@mail.gmail.com> <2C515BE8694C6F4B9B6A578BCAC32E2F83BA1443@MBX021-W3-CA-2.exch021.domain.local> <BY2PR15MB07757473DB9788558B902EB5CDF80@BY2PR15MB0775.namprd15.prod.outlook.com> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD861B7F@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> <e529144067624fcba636fc8c24ee3ff4@usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com> <BY2PR15MB07754D83A1721F2BD742359BCDFE0@BY2PR15MB0775.namprd15.prod.outlook.com> <2CD9DC43-D69B-43F0-8474-DFE798850A52@akamai.com> <CAGD1bZaUuNxqpDkn62B0wWcFD8=mCUWrAwWGG-rAOxH7Mf1=cQ@mail.gmail.com> <CY4PR21MB01334E30C7AF6AE75F58EEFDB6FE0@CY4PR21MB0133.namprd21.prod.outlook.com> <CAGD1bZaxrqzdkk0wxRaULwOTgg6wnrSrXNBK31s4uxdozaACBA@mail.gmail.com> <CAGD1bZbOAaSBcQw4nVtGuwRunaAW8MYHq9yPxNN6DdKHzt5HtQ@mail.gmail.com> <CA+9kkMC6A8eDeoCe936UyPGPz529TNxwK3_yuwus=HBGPpyiDQ@mail.gmail.com> <C39486D1-05DA-41B0-BA64-C053C11F8E25@trammell.ch>
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Brian,
I like your proposal as for the requirements I think that we are also talki=
ng about one point measurement and not two points.
Roni

-----Original Message-----
From: QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian Trammell (IETF=
)
Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2018 4:47 PM
To: Ted Hardie
Cc: QUIC WG
Subject: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image (was Re: Packet numb=
er encryption)

hi Ted,

(trimming, forking, #include apologies for google/apple mail shenanigans)

> On 6 Feb 2018, at 01:49, Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 4:30 PM, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com> wrote:
> I don't think we're converging here, so I'd like to try and encourage us =
to move towards it. I have my opinion, but I care more about forward progre=
ss at this point.
>=20
> There are three designs so far:
> 1. Packet numbers as is, with random gaps around migration.
> 2. Packet numbers encrypted, as per Martin's PR.
> 3. Packet numbers encrypted, plus a small modulo sequence number somewher=
e.
>=20
> The concrete ones here are (1) and (2).  I'm listing (3) but am not incli=
ned to consider it seriously, since it's not concrete enough, (and I don't =
want more bits to be spent in the QUIC packet header if that's where this i=
nfo goes.)
>=20
>=20
> If you'll forgive my saying so, evidence suggests that so many of the con=
crete aspects of such a proposal (where the bits would live, how many bits,=
 etc.) would change over the lifetime of a proposal in this WG that any com=
pletely nailed down suggestion might as well be a blank sheet for all the b=
earing it would have on the final placement and length.

Heh. Indeed.

> The question is:  do we wish to expose a small sequence number to assist =
in network analysis and management, yes or no?

A friendly amendment to refine this question, since I think it presupposes =
too much about the shape and color of said blank sheet of paper: do we wish=
 to expose a signal that is designed to meet the following requirements:

- assist in on-path detection and measurement of upstream packet loss
- assist in on-path detection and measurement or upstream packet reordering
- improve the passive measurement of RTT in the presence of reordering (i.e=
., fix the spin bit to work without the packet number)

We (without the encryption PR) already have a single (implicit) signal for =
these three requirements, but we can without too much thought already see a=
 few ways to add an implicit signal back in, probably even using only bits =
vacated in the short header by making encrypted packet numbers use varint e=
ncoding.

+1 to Ted: if we could at least come to consensus as a WG that these requir=
ements are important, then we can separate these two discussions. Let's res=
erve some bits in the header, let those of us who care about the shape of t=
he measurement nybble go off and work on a concrete proposal, and move on.

Cheers,

Brian

> We can argue over the bike shed color after making the decision to build =
a shed; requiring the shed have a color before considering the question see=
ms less productive to me than just answering the question.
>=20
> Just my personal opinion, of course.
>=20
> Ted
>=20


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From: Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 23:52:33 +0900
Message-ID: <CANatvzwrdc9tFfFncp278p-M0a83cFmgzPbkUiv+VoF_8RteCg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image (was Re: Packet number encryption)
To: "Brian Trammell (IETF)" <ietf@trammell.ch>
Cc: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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Hi Brian,

Thank you for the response. Responding in-line.

2018-02-06 23:30 GMT+09:00 Brian Trammell (IETF) <ietf@trammell.ch>:
> hi Kazuho, all,
>
> (splitting the thread, trimming recipients)
>
> We've been kicking around a few ideas like this one around the office tod=
ay, more or less as you were writing this...
>
>> On 6 Feb 2018, at 13:49, Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> 2018-02-06 9:30 GMT+09:00 Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>:
>>> I don't think we're converging here, so I'd like to try and encourage u=
s to
>>> move towards it. I have my opinion, but I care more about forward progr=
ess
>>> at this point.
>>>
>>> There are three designs so far:
>>> 1. Packet numbers as is, with random gaps around migration.
>>> 2. Packet numbers encrypted, as per Martin's PR.
>>> 3. Packet numbers encrypted, plus a small modulo sequence number somewh=
ere.
>>
>> I wonder if we can provide opportunity to observe upstream loss /
>> reorder rate by just reserving one bit per packet.
>>
>> The strawman is as follows.
>>
>> Sender exposes one bit per packet that can be observed by on-path
>> devices. The bit is flipped for every 256 packets that the sender
>> sends. Observer records the bit of each packet as they pass by.
>>
>> If there is no loss or reorder, the pattern an on-path device would
>> observe is repetition of 256 zeros and 256 ones. In other words, the
>> wavelength is 512 samples.
>>
>> When there is a loss, the wavelength becomes shorter. The wavelength
>> becomes 512 * (1-loss_rate) samples. For example, if the wavelength
>> being observed is 384, loss rate is 25%.
>>
>> If there is reorder, the edge (i.e. shift from zereos to ones, or vice
>> versa) becomes unclear. Duration of the transition will reflect the
>> extent of reordering.
>
> This is a pretty cool idea, but it doesn't provide enough information to =
protect the spin bit from reordering. This could be easily fixed by moving =
to a two-bit spin, as Gorry (I think) suggested. Among other things in this=
 space, Piet's also looking into how much reordering information could be e=
xtracted from a two-bit spin itself.
>
> There's a little complexity here -- you'd ideally like the starting point=
 to depend on the window size, which you actually don't know at the startin=
g point, and so on and so forth, but those are details.

Actually I was thinking of having a bit that is independent from the
"spin bit", which is proposed to measure the latency.

We can have one bit that measures the latency, and one bit that
measures packet loss / reorder.

The former will be flipped every RTT. The latter will be flipped for
for every N packets being sent (I used the N=3D256 example).

My understanding is that we want to observe three properties: latency,
loss, reordering. To me it seems that we might be able to achieve that
using 2 bits. OTOH there could be other ways to achieve the three
indicators using 2 bits. I think that we would have an interesting
discussion.

>
>> Theoretically, it might be possible to explain the approach as a way
>> to let the sender emit a wave, then FFT the wave in on-path devices to
>> observe loss / reorder. Or it could be explained as just sending one
>> bit of the sequence number, somewhere in the middle (i.e., not LSB nor
>> MSB).
>>
>> The pros of the approach is obvious; we will only spend 1 bit per
>> packet. Privacy impact is minimum. Implementing it is easy. Another
>> benefit is that it would be difficult (if not impossible) for on-path
>> devices to use the bit for purposes other than observation (i.e.,
>> change the ordering of the packets "for performance").
>>
>> OTOH I am not sure how hard it would be to build tools for observing
>> upstream behavior using the proposed approach. Or I could well be
>> missing some requirements that operators have, as I am an endpoint
>> developer.
>
> It's generally not the computational complexity of the task at a passive =
measurement point that is limiting to passive observation, it's the I/O (i.=
e. the amount of data that must be analyzed to generate a useful observatio=
n, and how far that data needs to be transmitted). Approaches like this one=
 that trade off additional analysis-time complexity for ease of implementat=
ion and endpoint runtime simplicity are where we want to look, IMO.

Thank you very much for explaining that. It helps a lot. I would keep
that in mind while I follow the discussion.

>
> Cheers,
>
> Brian
>
>>> The concrete ones here are (1) and (2).  I'm listing (3) but am not inc=
lined
>>> to consider it seriously, since it's not concrete enough, (and I don't =
want
>>> more bits to be spent in the QUIC packet header if that's where this in=
fo
>>> goes.)
>>>
>>> There are opinions about ossification, privacy, and manageability. I'm =
not
>>> hearing bloody murder, so for what it's worth, I'd like to stipulate fi=
rst
>>> that we can all live with the final design, whichever one it is.  If an=
yone
>>> disagrees, please say so -- I think it'd be useful to hear if there are
>>> folks who think a particular design is fundamentally problematic.
>>>
>>> My opinion is still for (2) over (1), but I can live with either.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 3:32 PM, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Praveen,
>>>>
>>>> That was precisely my point about the ecosystem evolving. Now that we =
have
>>>> the ability to classify flows, various things have been built around b=
eing
>>>> able to tell TCP flows. This obviously has benefits as you point out, =
but
>>>> the downside is that that I can't get good network utilization with a =
single
>>>> flow. I understand the scaling point, but speaking of common cases, an=
y
>>>> server in the wild is usually serving a large number of connections at
>>>> moderate speeds, not a single one at 25-35 Gbps... which makes that so=
rt of
>>>> scaling less exciting than in a microbenchmark.
>>>>
>>>> FWIW, the other downside of ECMP is that multipath transport doesn't w=
ork
>>>> -- you need to hash on something else besides the 4-tuple. (We had to =
work
>>>> around this in Google's deployment of connection migration.)
>>>>
>>>> I'll disagree with your point about reordering being the uncommon case=
.
>>>> While that's true today, this is again an expectation that the network=
 works
>>>> hard to maintain, though the ecosystem and what we expect as "usual" w=
ould
>>>> be quite different had we not built TCP's requirements into the networ=
k.
>>>> There's nothing wrong with having n-modal latencies... we can engineer
>>>> around that. Any sensible load distribution scheme within the network =
will
>>>> give you increased variance but it should limit the worst-case latency=
.
>>>> You'd perhaps agree that that's a net win.
>>>>
>>>> This was an example of how exposing packet number or not can have long
>>>> term ecosystem effects. My point was about the fact that exposing can =
cause
>>>> ossification.
>>>>
>>>> - jana
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 9:24 AM, Praveen Balasubramanian
>>>> <pravb@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> This was definitely true for implementations of TCP, but that is TC=
P's
>>>>>>> problem, not the network's
>>>>>
>>>>> Flow classification happens through the network and also on the end h=
ost
>>>>> with RSS where a flow is mapped to a core. This allows for building h=
igh
>>>>> performance receive processing that could be lock free for the most p=
art.
>>>>> The only downside of ECMP on the network and RSS on the CPU is that a=
 single
>>>>> flow will not take multiple paths or get processed on more than one c=
ore.
>>>>> Windows on server machines today can saturate 25-35 Gbps for a single=
 TCP
>>>>> connection before being CPU limited. This is a  reasonable trade off =
because
>>>>> I don=E2=80=99t know of cases where a single flow is driving more tha=
n that amount
>>>>> of traffic. Assumptions about how flows get classified help make for =
more
>>>>> efficient processing. They also lead to consistent latency. You do no=
t want
>>>>> the traffic to take a bi-modal or N-modal paths (on the network or th=
e host)
>>>>> to being processed because the fluctuations in latency will hurt the
>>>>> workload. I am not arguing for TCP not being resilient to reordering =
but IMO
>>>>> that should be the uncommon case not the common case. With QUIC if st=
reams
>>>>> were exposed on the network you could take advantage of stream level =
ECMP
>>>>> and RSS to scale better than TCP but we have chosen to keep the 4-tup=
le (or
>>>>> the 5-tuple) as the flow classifier on the network which is ok by me =
since
>>>>> it leads to TCP parity.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jana Iyengar
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, February 4, 2018 8:35 PM
>>>>> To: Salz, Rich <rsalz@akamai.com>
>>>>> Cc: Lubashev, Igor <ilubashe@akamai.com>; Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>=
;
>>>>> QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
>>>>> Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Privacy-protection can't be a user choice, for the reasons others hav=
e
>>>>> noted on this thread.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That said, my primary argument is for encryption to avoid ossificatio=
n.
>>>>> Not that it matters now, but I'll note that much of GQUIC's original
>>>>> motivation for encrypting headers was to avoid ossification.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'll reiterate that fields we expose will get ossified and there are
>>>>> long-term ecosystem effects to this. Let me illustrate this with prec=
isely
>>>>> the packet number field. Middleboxes commonly assume that a TCP flow =
can
>>>>> only handle packets in-order. This assumption comes from the fact tha=
t TCP
>>>>> implementations get poor performance when packets are reordered. This=
 was
>>>>> definitely true for implementations of TCP, but that is TCP's problem=
, not
>>>>> the network's. However, almost all load-balancers I know of now will =
pin all
>>>>> packets within a TCP flow to one path, leading to sub-optimal perform=
ance in
>>>>> the network, and destroying incentives for the endpoints to deploy
>>>>> reordering-resilient TCP implementations (even though there are plent=
y of
>>>>> ways of doing this.)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Exposing QUIC's packet number field (as any field) is likely to have
>>>>> similar consequences and a similar ecosystem arc.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Feb 4, 2018 at 7:51 PM, Salz, Rich <rsalz@akamai.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Optional security tends to devolve to non-secure.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That=E2=80=99s a great aphorism.  And sadly all too true.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Kazuho Oku
>



--=20
Kazuho Oku


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Subject: Re: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image (was Re: Packet number encryption)
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--94eb2c0496527c626305648c59bd
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

> Sender exposes one bit per packet that can be observed by on-path
> devices. The bit is flipped for every 256 packets that the sender
> sends. Observer records the bit of each packet as they pass by.



This is a pretty cool idea, but it doesn't provide enough information to
protect the spin bit from reordering. This could be easily fixed by moving
to a two-bit spin, as Gorry (I think) suggested. Among other things in this
space, Piet's also looking into how much reordering information could be
extracted from a two-bit spin itself.



This idea can be taken further: You can modulate the signal so you use
multiple packets to encode a zero or a one for half the wave duration. For
example 1 could be encoded as 0101 over four packets and zero could be
encoded as 0011 over four packets.
If there is any reordering, it would show up as an unexpected value in the
pulse.

--94eb2c0496527c626305648c59bd
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq" style=3D"font-family:H=
elvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;fo=
nt-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;tex=
t-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span><div><div>&gt; =
Sender exposes one bit per packet that can be observed by on-path<span clas=
s=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><br>&gt; devices. The bit is flipp=
ed for every 256 packets that the sender<span class=3D"Apple-converted-spac=
e">=C2=A0</span><br>&gt; sends. Observer records the bit of each packet as =
they pass by.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></div></div=
></span></blockquote></div><p><br></p><div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-n=
ewline"></div></div><div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq" =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-=
variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:sta=
rt;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"=
><span><div><div>This is a pretty cool idea, but it doesn&#39;t provide eno=
ugh information to protect the spin bit from reordering. This could be easi=
ly fixed by moving to a two-bit spin, as Gorry (I think) suggested. Among o=
ther things in this space, Piet&#39;s also looking into how much reordering=
 information could be extracted from a two-bit spin itself.<span class=3D"A=
pple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></div></div></span></blockquote></div></=
div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>This idea can be taken further: You =
can modulate the signal so you use multiple packets to encode a zero or a o=
ne for half the wave duration. For example 1 could be encoded as 0101 over =
four packets and zero could be encoded as 0011 over four packets.</div><div=
>If there is any reordering, it would show up as an unexpected value in the=
 pulse.</div></body></html>

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Asking with no hat, but ...

On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 1:00 PM, Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be> wrote:

> I support adoption.  The way to change the invariants will be to mint a
> new protocol, and not claim that your new protocol is a version of QUIC.
> If it happens to be startlingly similar, all well and good.


If you roll a new protocol, that's not a version of QUIC, is it obvious to
everyone but me whether you can run both protocols on UDP/443?

I thought I remembered that UDP/443 was chosen because firewalls often pass
port 443, so that aids deployment. Hence, my question.

Thanks,

Spencer

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Asking with no hat, but ...<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>=
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 1:00 PM, Mike Bishop <spa=
n dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbishop@evequefou.be" target=3D"_blank"=
>mbishop@evequefou.be</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1e=
x">I support adoption.=C2=A0 The way to change the invariants will be to mi=
nt a new protocol, and not claim that your new protocol is a version of QUI=
C.=C2=A0 If it happens to be startlingly similar, all well and good.</block=
quote><div><br></div><div>If you roll a new protocol, that&#39;s not a vers=
ion of QUIC, is it obvious to everyone but me whether you can run both prot=
ocols on UDP/443?=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>I thought I remembered tha=
t UDP/443 was chosen because firewalls often pass port 443, so that aids de=
ployment. Hence, my question.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div><b=
r></div><div>Spencer</div></div></div></div>

--001a113a3c4e6982e605648c5c50--


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Subject: Re: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image (was Re: Packet number encryption)
To: "Brian Trammell (IETF)" <ietf@trammell.ch>, Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>
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This idea can be taken further: You can modulate the signal so you use
multiple packets to encode a zero or a one for half the wave duration. For
example 1 could be encoded as 0101 over four packets and zero could be
encoded as 0011 over four packets.
If there is any reordering, it would show up as an unexpected value in the
pulse.


You can take it even further and add error correcting codes into the
sequence.

Or likewise, you could generate a known random sequence such as PI, or
perhaps simpler, an AES generated sequence.

It is easy to sync the signal by hashing bits from multiple packets and
therefore easy to detect any missing bits. If there is massive loss, a
binary search can be conducted to find the location of the surviving
packets. It sort of breaks down if every other packet is reordered but you
could still handle that with some consideration.

The signal could repeat with a period significantly larger that practical
RTT rather than running an infinite sequence.

Technically it would also make it possible to remove the packet number
entirely because the number can be estimated by end-points and trial
decrypted, but that would likely not be performance optimal.

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<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq" style=3D"font-family:Helvet=
ica,Arial;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-we=
ight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tra=
nsform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span><div style=3D"word-w=
rap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><div><div>This idea can be tak=
en further: You can modulate the signal so you use multiple packets to enco=
de a zero or a one for half the wave duration. For example 1 could be encod=
ed as 0101 over four packets and zero could be encoded as 0011 over four pa=
ckets.</div><div>If there is any reordering, it would show up as an unexpec=
ted value in the pulse.</div></div></div></span></blockquote></div><p><br><=
/p><p>You can take it even further and add error correcting codes into the =
sequence.</p><p>Or likewise, you could generate a known random sequence suc=
h as PI, or perhaps simpler, an AES generated sequence.</p><p>It is easy to=
 sync the signal by hashing bits from multiple packets and therefore easy t=
o detect any missing bits. If there is massive loss, a binary search can be=
 conducted to find the location of the surviving packets. It sort of breaks=
 down if every other packet is reordered but you could still handle that wi=
th some consideration.</p><p>The signal could repeat with a period signific=
antly larger that practical RTT rather than running an infinite sequence.</=
p><p>Technically it would also make it possible to remove the packet number=
 entirely because the number can be estimated by end-points and trial decry=
pted, but that would likely not be performance optimal.</p><div></div></bod=
y></html>

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Subject: Re: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image (was Re: Packet number encryption)
To: "Brian Trammell (IETF)" <ietf@trammell.ch>, Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>
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Or likewise, you could generate a known random sequence such as PI, or
perhaps simpler, an AES generated sequence.


Such a signal would work against privacy unless it restarts with each new
connection ID or it is keyed by connection ID.

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<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D=
"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;colo=
r:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div> <div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-=
size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi=
te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;=
line-break:after-white-space">Or likewise, you could generate a known rando=
m sequence such as PI, or perhaps simpler, an AES generated sequence.</div>=
</span></blockquote></div><p><br></p><p>Such a signal would work against pr=
ivacy unless it restarts with each new connection ID or it is keyed by conn=
ection ID.</p><div></div></body></html>

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Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
To: =?UTF-8?Q?Mikkel_Fahn=c3=b8e_J=c3=b8rgensen?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>, "Brian Trammell (IETF)" <ietf@trammell.ch>, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>
Cc: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>, "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>
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From: =?UTF-8?Q?Mirja_K=c3=bchlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
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Hi all,
On 06.02.2018 14:35, Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen wrote:
> 
> If the argument is for ossification and not privacy, I think the 
> encryption is the only option as Marten has pointed out. For this reason 
> it makes sense to apply crypto. Low-latency systems could create a QUIC 
> variant that drops the packet encryption.

It's also my understanding that we do agree that packet number 
encryption does not help likability (and thereby privacy) a lot, or at 
least that the benefits we might get (or not) do not justify the 
additional complexity.

So let's talk about ossification. I'm also not certain yet that the 
additional complexity (even thought it is low; and I'm not only talking 
about implementation complexity but also the effect for someone new to 
understand the protocol and the spec) is justified by the fear people 
have about the big evil called ossification. And my point really is here 
that this is driven by a fear about things that theoretical could happen 
in the future and less about that the experience we have. Yes, we should 
be really careful here; that's definitely a lesson learned. And yes, I 
do understand well how painful and extremely said it was to see how 
quickly guic ossified. But we really need to look a bit deeper into what 
happened and why, e.g. what does ossification really mean and what do we 
know about it to handle it best.

In case of guic, there was a presumably fixed bit pattern at the 
beginning of each packet that was used to classify traffic as being 
guic. So I think one thing we can learn is that for a field that is not 
supposed to be static we should try make it not to look static (I guess 
the solution here are not exposing it or grease it; in general I do 
prefer the first option). However, the other apart of the question is 
why did this happen. The answer is because the network needed a way to 
classify guic traffic as guic. If we don't provide an easy way to 
identify guic traffic (where currently the only way is observing the 
handshake but that might be fine; we'll see), the chance that other 
information is misused for this purposed is high (and this information 
could also be a certain traffic pattern that is usually observed with 
quic, compared to other UDP based traffic; or a certain port number...). 
Alternatively, if there is no way to distinguish quic from random spam 
that is also based on UDP, I can actually imagine a future where the 
easiest way out is to block all UDP because at least for quic with its 
current use case it will likely fall back to TCP anyway, so no harm 
here, right... expect for all the other protocols that want to use UDP 
encapsulation eventually, but the we can still use TCP an 
encapsulation... or something like this... maybe. So this might be only 
my imagination of an alternative reality but this is a different kind of 
ossification that can happen in the Internet if we do the wrong thing, 
and I think that's the alternate reality I'd really like to avoid!

So let's see what we really know about ossification so far. I think the 
big lesson we can learn from TCP is that we need to be selective about 
what we expose to the network (also for privacy reason) but the other 
part of the lesson is also that using TCP header information for network 
monitoring (that have been exposed accidentally) has been a great win. 
Without the tools we have today, we would know less about the Internet 
than we already do and it would be much more effort and potentially 
economically not viable anymore to manage the networks we have have 
build with it current complexity. I'm all in for privacy and that's also 
a lesson learned, but I would really be disappointed if end up designing 
a protocol that would not be based on the things that we know have been 
good about TCP and just ignore that part.

Coming back to the packet number (and closer to this reality). Guic has 
been exposing the packet number for a long time now and this didn't 
cause an ossification problem. Yes, they presumingly didn't try to 
change it (actually I don't know that) but it is used (if at all) also 
in a different way than the flags field and for a different purpose. The 
packet number is a field that is increased on each packet. So if that is 
what is observed in the network and assumed to be mechanism then that's 
correct (different than the flags field with was assumed to be static 
but was not). Further network monitoring devices will likely use the 
packet number field for measurement but will not block the traffic if 
they don't find what they'll expect.

So to sum up, yes we need to consider possible ossification that can 
happen for all information we are going to expose (and I do mean all! 
including traffic pattern, packet sizes and timing). However, the 
conclusion from the past for me is not to not expose any information. It 
has proven of high value if information for network monitoring are 
available to the network, and the spin bit has show that it is possible 
to expose these information without a privacy impact. I do not see any 
evidence that the packet number is likely to ossify in a way that would 
hinder future protocol deployment and it will not increase likability, 
therefore I do think not changing the protocol and keeping the packet 
number as it is, is the best and easiest solution. However, if people 
really think it's better to encrypt the packet number, we must provide 
other measures for manageability.

Sorry for this long mail but I am very worried that the fear we have 
about this big evil word ossification is driving us into a wrong 
direction and we really should consider the different cases more 
separately and in detail.

Mirja



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Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
To: "Brian Trammell (IETF)" <ietf@trammell.ch>, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>
Cc: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>, "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>,  Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>
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The overhead of packet encryption (single block AES-CTR) is probably around
100 cycles with AES-NI and possibly 160 cycles table based for one block
for Intel arch. This is because parallel multi-block optimisations are not
possible. AES-CTR of one block is about the same as AES-CTR of 4 blocks,
and GCM auth tag adds perhaps 50% to that. Thus packet number encryption
might be twice as fast as AES-GCM of a 64 byte message which is still a 50%
overhead.


The overhead could be reduced by generating an AES derived random byte
sequence and store 8 bits from the sequence in each packet. The sequence
can be efficiently precomputed for 64 packets at a time. A simple lookup
table will tell the packet number with high probability, and if it fails,
it is possible to extend the search. Details could be discussed, such as
using 12 bits instead of 8 etc.

This requires fewer header bits on the wire, is private, ossification
resistant, and fast.

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<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq" style=3D"font-family:Helvet=
ica,Arial;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-we=
ight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tra=
nsform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span><div style=3D"word-w=
rap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><div><div id=3D"bloop_customfo=
nt" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgb(0,0,0);ma=
rgin:0px">The overhead of packet encryption (single block AES-CTR) is proba=
bly around 100 cycles with AES-NI and possibly 160 cycles table based for o=
ne block for Intel arch. This is because parallel multi-block optimisations=
 are not possible. AES-CTR of one block is about the same as AES-CTR of 4 b=
locks, and GCM auth tag adds perhaps 50% to that. Thus packet number encryp=
tion might be twice as fast as AES-GCM of a 64 byte message which is still =
a 50% overhead.</div></div></div></span></blockquote></div><p><br></p><p>Th=
e overhead could be reduced by generating an AES derived random byte sequen=
ce and store 8 bits from the sequence in each packet. The sequence can be e=
fficiently precomputed for 64 packets at a time. A simple lookup table will=
 tell the packet number with high probability, and if it fails, it is possi=
ble to extend the search. Details could be discussed, such as using 12 bits=
 instead of 8 etc.</p><p>This requires fewer header bits on the wire, is pr=
ivate, ossification resistant, and fast.</p><div></div></body></html>

--f403045d914c8a384a05648cc86e--


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Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
To: =?UTF-8?Q?Mirja_K=c3=bchlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, =?UTF-8?Q?Mikkel_Fahn=c3=b8e_J=c3=b8rgensen?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>, "Brian Trammell (IETF)" <ietf@trammell.ch>, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>
Cc: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>, "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>
References: <CABkgnnVyo3MmWtVULiV=FJTnR528qfY8-OmKGWAs0bCvri-a_g@mail.gmail.com> <2C515BE8694C6F4B9B6A578BCAC32E2F83BA1443@MBX021-W3-CA-2.exch021.domain.local> <BY2PR15MB07757473DB9788558B902EB5CDF80@BY2PR15MB0775.namprd15.prod.outlook.com> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD861B7F@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> <e529144067624fcba636fc8c24ee3ff4@usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com> <BY2PR15MB07754D83A1721F2BD742359BCDFE0@BY2PR15MB0775.namprd15.prod.outlook.com> <2CD9DC43-D69B-43F0-8474-DFE798850A52@akamai.com> <CAGD1bZaUuNxqpDkn62B0wWcFD8=mCUWrAwWGG-rAOxH7Mf1=cQ@mail.gmail.com> <CY4PR21MB01334E30C7AF6AE75F58EEFDB6FE0@CY4PR21MB0133.namprd21.prod.outlook.com> <CAGD1bZaxrqzdkk0wxRaULwOTgg6wnrSrXNBK31s4uxdozaACBA@mail.gmail.com> <CAGD1bZbOAaSBcQw4nVtGuwRunaAW8MYHq9yPxNN6DdKHzt5HtQ@mail.gmail.com> <2102BDC2-62C0-4A76-8ADE-8167437E2D07@trammell.ch> <CAN1APde6o6=aCXuWajPFSU=jXv-ERdVHk=uyjM71uQ_uU-oMTg@mail.gmail.com> <8e833029-68b5-2787-3897-a0f7818a259f@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
From: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
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From: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
To: =?UTF-8?Q?Mirja_K=c3=bchlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>,
 =?UTF-8?Q?Mikkel_Fahn=c3=b8e_J=c3=b8rgensen?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>,
 "Brian Trammell (IETF)" <ietf@trammell.ch>, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>
Cc: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>,
 Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>,
 "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>
Message-ID: <1de39727-eeec-0e7a-1e8b-5ed50433c5bd@cs.tcd.ie>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
References: <CABkgnnVyo3MmWtVULiV=FJTnR528qfY8-OmKGWAs0bCvri-a_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGD1bZab0GaZFsHwC+nw3AxxC4VusxMJ6oDanzk3dSDdWKAXdw@mail.gmail.com>
 <2C515BE8694C6F4B9B6A578BCAC32E2F83BA1443@MBX021-W3-CA-2.exch021.domain.local>
 <BY2PR15MB07757473DB9788558B902EB5CDF80@BY2PR15MB0775.namprd15.prod.outlook.com>
 <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD861B7F@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com>
 <e529144067624fcba636fc8c24ee3ff4@usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com>
 <BY2PR15MB07754D83A1721F2BD742359BCDFE0@BY2PR15MB0775.namprd15.prod.outlook.com>
 <2CD9DC43-D69B-43F0-8474-DFE798850A52@akamai.com>
 <CAGD1bZaUuNxqpDkn62B0wWcFD8=mCUWrAwWGG-rAOxH7Mf1=cQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CY4PR21MB01334E30C7AF6AE75F58EEFDB6FE0@CY4PR21MB0133.namprd21.prod.outlook.com>
 <CAGD1bZaxrqzdkk0wxRaULwOTgg6wnrSrXNBK31s4uxdozaACBA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAGD1bZbOAaSBcQw4nVtGuwRunaAW8MYHq9yPxNN6DdKHzt5HtQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2102BDC2-62C0-4A76-8ADE-8167437E2D07@trammell.ch>
 <CAN1APde6o6=aCXuWajPFSU=jXv-ERdVHk=uyjM71uQ_uU-oMTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <8e833029-68b5-2787-3897-a0f7818a259f@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
In-Reply-To: <8e833029-68b5-2787-3897-a0f7818a259f@tik.ee.ethz.ch>

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On 06/02/18 15:23, Mirja K=C3=BChlewind wrote:
>=20
> It's also my understanding that we do agree that packet number
> encryption does not help likability (and thereby privacy) a lot, or at
> least that the benefits we might get (or not) do not justify the
> additional complexity.

FWIW, which isn't much, I don't (yet) agree to the above.
I reckon it'll be a while before we know how linkability
pans out. I do agree that packet number encryption is not
a panacea for unlinkability, but it may help, or may even
end up being required, to do a good job wrt linkability.

I also heard people say it was less complex for them so
"additional complexity" may also not be quite right. (I
guess "differently complex" is correct though.)

S.

--=20
PGP key change time for me.
New-ID 7B172BEA; old-ID 805F8DA2 expires Jan 24 2018.
NewWithOld sigs in keyservers.
Sorry if that mucks something up;-)

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From: Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 01:22:35 +0900
Message-ID: <CANatvzz3rmGPRgu1Z5+bAHhgjiN3L5OVTDhb4fmpPX+M8o4z3w@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image (was Re: Packet number encryption)
To: =?UTF-8?Q?Mikkel_Fahn=C3=B8e_J=C3=B8rgensen?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>
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2018-02-06 23:54 GMT+09:00 Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen <mikkelfj@gmai=
l.com>:
> This idea can be taken further: You can modulate the signal so you use
> multiple packets to encode a zero or a one for half the wave duration. Fo=
r
> example 1 could be encoded as 0101 over four packets and zero could be
> encoded as 0011 over four packets.
> If there is any reordering, it would show up as an unexpected value in th=
e
> pulse.

That's definitely an option.

Actually, I considered using sin wave (that distributes the error
among 1-bit samples) as an example instead of the square wave.

The primary reason behind my preference to using a square wave is that
it is easier to implement; in fact, emitting a square wave with the
length of 512 packets is as easy as just taking the 9th bit (counting
from LSB) of the packet number (if we forget about the gaps for a
moment).


--=20
Kazuho Oku


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Subject: Re: Call for Adoption: Invariants
To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>, Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>
Cc: "Brian Trammell (IETF)" <ietf@trammell.ch>, =?UTF-8?Q?Mikkel_Fahn=c3=b8e_J=c3=b8rgensen?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>, Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>
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On 2/6/18 6:54 AM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote:
> Asking with no hat, but ...
>
> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 1:00 PM, Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be
> <mailto:mbishop@evequefou.be>> wrote:
>
>     I support adoption.=C2=A0 The way to change the invariants will be =
to
>     mint a new protocol, and not claim that your new protocol is a
>     version of QUIC.=C2=A0 If it happens to be startlingly similar, all=

>     well and good.
>
>
> If you roll a new protocol, that's not a version of QUIC, is it
> obvious to everyone but me whether you can run both protocols on UDP/44=
3?=C2=A0
>
> I thought I remembered that UDP/443 was chosen because firewalls often
> pass port 443, so that aids deployment. Hence, my question.
In my experience as a vendor of and consumer of commercial firewalls.
UDP and TCP port numbers receive separate treatment.

So a decision to pass TCP 80/443=C2=A0 or UDP 443 would be undertaken
independently.

Outgoing UDP through a stateful NAT/PAT tends to create state for a
binding which will be used to map incoming packets with obverse 5-tuple
to the original sender. unsolicited incoming UDP (for which no binding
or rule exists) will be dropped.

There is the complexity with UDP of determining when you can remove the
state since connection oriented signaling may well be (is) opaque to the
stateful device. if you have to fall back to a timer or some kind of LRU
policy for state entries you will tend break long lived flows that don't
use keep-alives.
> Thanks,
>
> Spencer


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    <p><br>
    </p>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/6/18 6:54 AM, Spencer Dawkins at
      IETF wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAKKJt-cJs8Ms62tBjxGTXBZ6GeD0+VgdWzG7zYf8Yui=a4HPvg@mail.gmail.com">
      <div dir="ltr">Asking with no hat, but ...
        <div class="gmail_extra"><br>
          <div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 1:00 PM, Mike
            Bishop <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a
                href="mailto:mbishop@evequefou.be" target="_blank"
                moz-do-not-send="true">mbishop@evequefou.be</a>&gt;</span>
            wrote:<br>
            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
              .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">I
              support adoption.  The way to change the invariants will
              be to mint a new protocol, and not claim that your new
              protocol is a version of QUIC.  If it happens to be
              startlingly similar, all well and good.</blockquote>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>If you roll a new protocol, that's not a version of
              QUIC, is it obvious to everyone but me whether you can run
              both protocols on UDP/443? </div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>I thought I remembered that UDP/443 was chosen because
              firewalls often pass port 443, so that aids deployment.
              Hence, my question.</div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    In my experience as a vendor of and consumer of commercial
    firewalls. UDP and TCP port numbers receive separate treatment.<br>
    <br>
    So a decision to pass TCP 80/443  or UDP 443 would be undertaken
    independently.<br>
    <br>
    Outgoing UDP through a stateful NAT/PAT tends to create state for a
    binding which will be used to map incoming packets with obverse
    5-tuple to the original sender. unsolicited incoming UDP (for which
    no binding or rule exists) will be dropped.<br>
    <br>
    There is the complexity with UDP of determining when you can remove
    the state since connection oriented signaling may well be (is)
    opaque to the stateful device. if you have to fall back to a timer
    or some kind of LRU policy for state entries you will tend break
    long lived flows that don't use keep-alives. <br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAKKJt-cJs8Ms62tBjxGTXBZ6GeD0+VgdWzG7zYf8Yui=a4HPvg@mail.gmail.com">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div class="gmail_extra">
          <div class="gmail_quote">
            <div>Thanks,</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>Spencer</div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
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From nobody Tue Feb  6 09:56:11 2018
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From: Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>
To: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>, =?utf-8?B?TWlyamEgS8O8aGxld2luZA==?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, =?utf-8?B?TWlra2VsIEZhaG7DuGUgSsO4cmdlbnNlbg==?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>, "Brian Trammell (IETF)" <ietf@trammell.ch>, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>
CC: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>, "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>
Subject: RE: Packet number encryption
Thread-Topic: Packet number encryption
Thread-Index: AQHTmW33YzpoOLX0UU2dbBSG8l3vaKOMgUQAgABeoYCAAAgUAIAAd3KAgAA8YgCAACPEAIAAAiYAgAOBloCAALfdgIAACBkAgAEGGACAANx9AIAAn5KAgAB7w4CAADUigIAADBeAgADXOQCAAGavgIAAEEgAgACizACAADhiAIAAHkiAgAADUYCAACabIA==
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 17:56:00 +0000
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From nobody Tue Feb  6 10:00:05 2018
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From: Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>
To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
CC: "Brian Trammell (IETF)" <ietf@trammell.ch>, =?utf-8?B?TWlra2VsIEZhaG7DuGUgSsO4cmdlbnNlbg==?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>, "Lars Eggert" <lars@eggert.org>, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Call for Adoption: Invariants
Thread-Topic: Call for Adoption: Invariants
Thread-Index: AQHTnkeuZnxZRuZmRE2jEtXr4M5toqOVb7kAgAALu4CAAK8BAIABTdyAgAAzYWA=
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 17:59:49 +0000
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References: <C35C3AB6-F0FC-4D83-9C97-DD0B605A863F@mnot.net> <DB6PR10MB17667AAB19D4A9288FD5BAF3ACFE0@DB6PR10MB1766.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM> <FDFA0988-1FB4-4AFC-8958-1A6B16068FE5@trammell.ch> <MWHPR08MB2432F1CB1FBAFACD611D3913DAFE0@MWHPR08MB2432.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> <CAKKJt-cJs8Ms62tBjxGTXBZ6GeD0+VgdWzG7zYf8Yui=a4HPvg@mail.gmail.com>
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From: Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 10:57:03 -0800
Message-ID: <CA+9kkMChFQ3aYBcsdtFOD18CytjhqYE-pWqd6JCUPuD5vwFE6g@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Call for Adoption: Invariants
To: Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>, "Brian Trammell (IETF)" <ietf@trammell.ch>,  =?UTF-8?Q?Mikkel_Fahn=C3=B8e_J=C3=B8rgensen?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>,  QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>, Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>
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On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 6:54 AM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF <
spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

> Asking with no hat, but ...
>
> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 1:00 PM, Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be> wrote:
>
>> I support adoption.  The way to change the invariants will be to mint a
>> new protocol, and not claim that your new protocol is a version of QUIC.
>> If it happens to be startlingly similar, all well and good.
>
>
> If you roll a new protocol, that's not a version of QUIC, is it obvious to
> everyone but me whether you can run both protocols on UDP/443?
>
>
Mike Bishop's PR defining httpq as a scheme (
https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/348) defines UDP 443 as the
default for httpq.  I think that pretty much asserts that UDP/443 is QUIC,
not a forked variant.


> I thought I remembered that UDP/443 was chosen because firewalls often
> pass port 443, so that aids deployment. Hence, my question.
>
>
Yes.  That may cause us to consider carefully whether UDP/443 ought to be
defined for QUIC more rather than HTTP over QUIC, or even more generally.

Ted



> Thanks,
>
> Spencer
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 6:54 AM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF <s=
pan dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com</a><wbr>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><di=
v class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,2=
04,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Asking with no hat, but ...<div =
class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><span>On Mon, Feb 5, 2=
018 at 1:00 PM, Mike Bishop <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbishop=
@evequefou.be" target=3D"_blank">mbishop@evequefou.be</a>&gt;</span> wrote:=
<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bor=
der-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">I support adoption.=
=C2=A0 The way to change the invariants will be to mint a new protocol, and=
 not claim that your new protocol is a version of QUIC.=C2=A0 If it happens=
 to be startlingly similar, all well and good.</blockquote><div><br></div><=
/span><div>If you roll a new protocol, that&#39;s not a version of QUIC, is=
 it obvious to everyone but me whether you can run both protocols on UDP/44=
3?=C2=A0</div><div><br></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>=
Mike Bishop&#39;s PR defining httpq as a scheme (<a href=3D"https://github.=
com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/348">https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull=
/348</a>) defines UDP 443 as the default for httpq.=C2=A0 I think that pret=
ty much asserts that UDP/443 is QUIC, not a forked variant.=C2=A0 <br></div=
><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204=
);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><div></div><div>I thought I remembered that UDP/443 was ch=
osen because firewalls often pass port 443, so that aids deployment. Hence,=
 my question.</div><div><br></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br><=
/div><div>Yes.=C2=A0 That may cause us to consider carefully whether UDP/44=
3 ought to be defined for QUIC more rather than HTTP over QUIC, or even mor=
e generally.<br><br></div><div>Ted<br></div><div><br>=C2=A0</div><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px s=
olid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmai=
l_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div></div><div>Thanks,</div><div><br><=
/div><div>Spencer</div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--001a113cced86307d805648fc072--


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From: Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>
To: Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>, Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
CC: "Brian Trammell (IETF)" <ietf@trammell.ch>, =?utf-8?B?TWlra2VsIEZhaG7DuGUgSsO4cmdlbnNlbg==?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>, "QUIC WG" <quic@ietf.org>, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>, Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>
Subject: RE: Call for Adoption: Invariants
Thread-Topic: Call for Adoption: Invariants
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References: <C35C3AB6-F0FC-4D83-9C97-DD0B605A863F@mnot.net> <DB6PR10MB17667AAB19D4A9288FD5BAF3ACFE0@DB6PR10MB1766.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM> <FDFA0988-1FB4-4AFC-8958-1A6B16068FE5@trammell.ch> <MWHPR08MB2432F1CB1FBAFACD611D3913DAFE0@MWHPR08MB2432.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> <CAKKJt-cJs8Ms62tBjxGTXBZ6GeD0+VgdWzG7zYf8Yui=a4HPvg@mail.gmail.com> <CA+9kkMChFQ3aYBcsdtFOD18CytjhqYE-pWqd6JCUPuD5vwFE6g@mail.gmail.com> <MWHPR08MB2432E39B469653DB35C02D8EDAFD0@MWHPR08MB2432.namprd08.prod.outlook.com>
From: Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 11:26:07 -0800
Message-ID: <CAGD1bZZZ4OHtBpEdZ_XqU6g9sa9xSf2xEOpwpBYzEC61PxzDWg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Call for Adoption: Invariants
To: Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>
Cc: Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>,  Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>, "Brian Trammell (IETF)" <ietf@trammell.ch>,  =?UTF-8?Q?Mikkel_Fahn=C3=B8e_J=C3=B8rgensen?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>,  QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>, Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>
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What Mike said -- UDP/443 was allocated for HTTP over UDP, but is not
required for HTTP/QUIC. The HTTP mapping document currently says (in Sectio=
n
2.1
<https://quicwg.github.io/base-drafts/draft-ietf-quic-http.html#rfc.section=
.2.1>)
"Servers MAY serve HTTP/QUIC on any UDP port." We can discuss this, but
let's move that discussion to where it belongs, on #495
<https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/495>.

The QUIC transport draft specifically does not say anything about which UDP
ports are to be used -- QUIC is a transport after all, and there is no
reason to tie the entire transport to a port.



On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 11:09 AM, Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be> wrote:

> Two notes, one against interest:  That PR is old and currently parked,
> because we don=E2=80=99t have consensus and it=E2=80=99s less urgent.  An=
d secondly,
> UDP/443 is already allocated by IANA for HTTP over UDP.
>
>
>
> *From:* Ted Hardie [mailto:ted.ietf@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, February 6, 2018 10:57 AM
> *To:* Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
> *Cc:* Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>; Brian Trammell (IETF) <
> ietf@trammell.ch>; Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen <mikkelfj@gmail.com>=
; QUIC WG <
> quic@ietf.org>; Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>; Lars Eggert <
> lars@eggert.org>
> *Subject:* Re: Call for Adoption: Invariants
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 6:54 AM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF <
> spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Asking with no hat, but ...
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 1:00 PM, Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be> wrote:
>
> I support adoption.  The way to change the invariants will be to mint a
> new protocol, and not claim that your new protocol is a version of QUIC.
> If it happens to be startlingly similar, all well and good.
>
>
>
> If you roll a new protocol, that's not a version of QUIC, is it obvious t=
o
> everyone but me whether you can run both protocols on UDP/443?
>
>
>
>
>
> Mike Bishop's PR defining httpq as a scheme (https://github.com/quicwg/
> base-drafts/pull/348) defines UDP 443 as the default for httpq.  I think
> that pretty much asserts that UDP/443 is QUIC, not a forked variant.
>
>
>
> I thought I remembered that UDP/443 was chosen because firewalls often
> pass port 443, so that aids deployment. Hence, my question.
>
>
>
>
>
> Yes.  That may cause us to consider carefully whether UDP/443 ought to be
> defined for QUIC more rather than HTTP over QUIC, or even more generally.
>
> Ted
>
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Spencer
>
>
>

--001a114c4c108ca7f50564902663
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<div dir=3D"ltr">What Mike said -- UDP/443 was allocated for HTTP over UDP,=
 but is not required for HTTP/QUIC.=C2=A0<span style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34)=
;font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-varian=
t-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:=
normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:nor=
mal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-styl=
e:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline">The HTTP=
 mapping document currently says (in<span>=C2=A0</span></span><a href=3D"ht=
tps://quicwg.github.io/base-drafts/draft-ietf-quic-http.html#rfc.section.2.=
1" class=3D"gmail-cremed cremed" style=3D"color:rgb(17,85,204);font-family:=
arial,sans-serif;font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:n=
ormal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-a=
lign:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spac=
ing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Section 2.1</a><span style=3D"co=
lor:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small;font-style:n=
ormal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:40=
0;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:non=
e;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);tex=
t-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display=
:inline">) &quot;Servers MAY serve HTTP/QUIC on any UDP port.&quot; We can =
discuss this, but let&#39;s move that discussion to where it belongs, on=C2=
=A0<a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/495" class=3D"cr=
emed">#495</a>.</span><div><br></div><div>The QUIC transport draft specific=
ally does not say anything about which UDP ports are to be used -- QUIC is =
a transport after all, and there is no reason to tie the entire transport t=
o a port.<br><br><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 11:09 AM, Mike Bishop <span dir=3D"=
ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbishop@evequefou.be" target=3D"_blank">mbishop@=
evequefou.be</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_295046495142918079WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Two notes, one against interest:=C2=A0 That PR is ol=
d and currently parked, because we don=E2=80=99t have consensus and it=E2=
=80=99s less urgent.=C2=A0 And secondly, UDP/443 is already allocated by IA=
NA for HTTP over UDP.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Ted Hardie [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:te=
d.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">ted.ietf@gmail.com</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 6, 2018 10:57 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Spencer Dawkins at IETF &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spencerdawkins.iet=
f@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com</a><wbr>&gt;<b=
r>
<b>Cc:</b> Mike Bishop &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbishop@evequefou.be" target=
=3D"_blank">mbishop@evequefou.be</a>&gt;; Brian Trammell (IETF) &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:ietf@trammell.ch" target=3D"_blank">ietf@trammell.ch</a>&gt;; Mi=
kkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank">mikkelfj@gmail.com</a>&gt;; QUIC WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Mark Nottingham &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:mnot@mnot.net" target=3D"_blank">mnot@mnot.net</a>&gt;; =
Lars Eggert &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lars@eggert.org" target=3D"_blank">lars@e=
ggert.org</a>&gt;<span class=3D""><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Call for Adoption: Invariants<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 6:54 AM, Spencer Dawkins at I=
ETF &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">=
spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com</a><wbr>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p><div><di=
v class=3D"h5">
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Asking with no hat, but ...<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 1:00 PM, Mike Bishop &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:mbishop@evequefou.be" target=3D"_blank">mbishop@evequefou.be<=
/a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I support adoption.=C2=A0 The way to change the inva=
riants will be to mint a new protocol, and not claim that your new protocol=
 is a version of QUIC.=C2=A0 If it happens to be startlingly similar, all w=
ell and good.<u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If you roll a new protocol, that&#39;s not a version=
 of QUIC, is it obvious to everyone but me whether you can run both protoco=
ls on UDP/443?=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Mike Bishop&#39;s PR defining httpq as a scheme (<a =
href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/348" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://github.com/quicwg/<wbr>base-drafts/pull/348</a>) defines UDP 443 as =
the default for httpq.=C2=A0 I think that pretty much asserts that UDP/443
 is QUIC, not a forked variant.=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I thought I remembered that UDP/443 was chosen becau=
se firewalls often pass port 443, so that aids deployment. Hence, my questi=
on.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Yes.=C2=A0 That may c=
ause us to consider carefully whether UDP/443 ought to be defined for QUIC =
more rather than HTTP over QUIC, or even more generally.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Ted<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Spencer<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a114c4c108ca7f50564902663--


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CC: Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>
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From: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
To: Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>, Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>
CC: Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>, Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>, Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>, "Brian Trammell (IETF)" <ietf@trammell.ch>, =?utf-8?B?TWlra2VsIEZhaG7DuGUgSsO4cmdlbnNlbg==?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Call for Adoption: Invariants
Thread-Topic: Call for Adoption: Invariants
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From: Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 15:00:32 -0800
Message-ID: <CAGD1bZauKbucs_5n7RQbK8H2HiyfiqpGVEcKreGA6umhMBSFgg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
To: Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>
Cc: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>,  =?UTF-8?Q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>,  =?UTF-8?Q?Mikkel_Fahn=C3=B8e_J=C3=B8rgensen?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>,  "Brian Trammell (IETF)" <ietf@trammell.ch>, Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>,  Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>, "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>
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I'm going to try a different attempt at moving towards
convergence. Thinking about this some more, and picking up something that
Mirja said way earlier in this thread, I think the following decomposition
is useful.

1. In the transport, all packet numbers start at 0, increasing
monotonically. ACK frames carry these packet numbers, and therefore do not
have to span large gaps and do not have to deal with increases in the size
of the largest acked. Basically, no gaps are visible within the transport
processing engine.
2. Before sending a packet on the wire, and before processing the packet,
QUIC transforms the packet number with some function, replacing the visible
packet number with the transformed value.

I think we can all agree that (1) is goodness. A sender is also free to use
packet numbers from non-contiguous spaces here FWIW, but that's entirely
independent of what's visible on the wire. This helps me separate transport
processing complexity from the rest of it, which I think is helpful.

I think we are disagreeing on the precise properties we want from the
transformation in (2). If we can agree on these properties, we can then
figure out whether it's possible and how to construct such a transform.
Here's a union of what folks are concerned about:
1. Packet number must be unlinkable across connection ID change (for
migration.)
2. Packet number must start at an arbitrary value, to avoid ossification of
the first packet number.
3. Some sequencing information -- a few bits of the packet number perhaps
-- should be revealed (for monitoring. Number of bits TBD.)
4. Any packet number transformation should not be compute intensive.

I'm not looking for a construction, but I'd like to agree on the problem
first. Does this sound like the set of properties we want? Or is there a
contradiction among these properties that I'm not seeing?

On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 9:56 AM, Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be> wrote:

> Packet number encryption *does* improve linkability equivalently to rando=
m
> jumps, but without the fragmentation of the ACK packet which those jumps
> otherwise cause.  So I'm with Stephen, we don't yet have agreement on tha=
t
> assertion.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Farrell
> Sent: Tuesday, February 6, 2018 7:35 AM
> To: Mirja K=C3=BChlewind <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>; Mikkel Fahn=
=C3=B8e
> J=C3=B8rgensen <mikkelfj@gmail.com>; Brian Trammell (IETF) <ietf@trammell=
.ch>;
> Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>
> Cc: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>; QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org=
>;
> Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>; Lubashev, Igor <ilubashe@akamai.com>; Salz,
> Rich <rsalz@akamai.com>
> Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
>
>
>
> On 06/02/18 15:23, Mirja K=C3=BChlewind wrote:
> >
> > It's also my understanding that we do agree that packet number
> > encryption does not help likability (and thereby privacy) a lot, or at
> > least that the benefits we might get (or not) do not justify the
> > additional complexity.
>
> FWIW, which isn't much, I don't (yet) agree to the above.
> I reckon it'll be a while before we know how linkability pans out. I do
> agree that packet number encryption is not a panacea for unlinkability, b=
ut
> it may help, or may even end up being required, to do a good job wrt
> linkability.
>
> I also heard people say it was less complex for them so "additional
> complexity" may also not be quite right. (I guess "differently complex" i=
s
> correct though.)
>
> S.
>
> --
> PGP key change time for me.
> New-ID 7B172BEA; old-ID 805F8DA2 expires Jan 24 2018.
> NewWithOld sigs in keyservers.
> Sorry if that mucks something up;-)
>

--001a114e326e5c023005649325d2
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<div dir=3D"ltr">I&#39;m going to try a different attempt at moving towards=
 convergence.=C2=A0Thinking about this some more, and picking up something =
that Mirja said way earlier in this thread, I think the following decomposi=
tion is useful.<div><br></div><div>1. In the transport, all packet numbers =
start at 0, increasing monotonically. ACK frames carry these packet numbers=
, and therefore do not have to span large gaps and do not have to deal with=
 increases in the size of the largest acked. Basically, no gaps are visible=
 within the transport processing engine.</div><div>2. Before sending a pack=
et on the wire, and before processing the packet, QUIC transforms the packe=
t number with some function, replacing the visible packet number with the t=
ransformed value.<br></div><div><br></div><div>I think we can all agree tha=
t (1) is goodness. A sender is also free to use packet numbers from non-con=
tiguous spaces here FWIW, but that&#39;s entirely independent of what&#39;s=
 visible on the wire. This helps me separate transport processing complexit=
y from the rest of it, which I think is helpful.</div><div><br></div><div>I=
 think we are disagreeing on the precise properties we want from the transf=
ormation in (2). If we can agree on these properties, we can then figure ou=
t whether it&#39;s possible and how to construct such a transform. Here&#39=
;s a union of what folks are concerned about:</div><div>1. Packet number mu=
st be unlinkable across connection ID change (for migration.)</div><div>2. =
Packet number must start at an arbitrary value, to avoid ossification of th=
e first packet number.</div><div>3. Some sequencing information -- a few bi=
ts of the packet number perhaps -- should be revealed (for monitoring. Numb=
er of bits TBD.)</div><div>4. Any packet number transformation should not b=
e compute intensive.</div><div><br></div><div>I&#39;m not looking for a con=
struction, but I&#39;d like to agree on the problem first. Does this sound =
like the set of properties we want? Or is there a contradiction among these=
 properties that I&#39;m not seeing?</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">=
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 9:56 AM, Mike Bishop =
<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbishop@evequefou.be" target=3D"_bl=
ank">mbishop@evequefou.be</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-lef=
t:1ex">Packet number encryption *does* improve linkability equivalently to =
random jumps, but without the fragmentation of the ACK packet which those j=
umps otherwise cause.=C2=A0 So I&#39;m with Stephen, we don&#39;t yet have =
agreement on that assertion.<br>
<span class=3D"im HOEnZb"><br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: QUIC [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org">quic-bounces@ie=
tf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Stephen Farrell<br>
Sent: Tuesday, February 6, 2018 7:35 AM<br>
To: Mirja K=C3=BChlewind &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz=
.ch">mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.<wbr>ch</a>&gt;; Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=
=B8rgensen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com">mikkelfj@gmail.com</a>=
&gt;; Brian Trammell (IETF) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@trammell.ch">ietf@tr=
ammell.ch</a>&gt;; Jana Iyengar &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jri@google.com">jri@g=
oogle.com</a>&gt;<br>
Cc: Praveen Balasubramanian &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pravb@microsoft.com">prav=
b@microsoft.com</a>&gt;; QUIC WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@=
ietf.org</a>&gt;; Roberto Peon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.com">fenix@fb=
.com</a>&gt;; Lubashev, Igor &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ilubashe@akamai.com">ilu=
bashe@akamai.com</a>&gt;; Salz, Rich &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rsalz@akamai.com=
">rsalz@akamai.com</a>&gt;<br>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">On 06/02/18 15:23, Mirja K=
=C3=BChlewind wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; It&#39;s also my understanding that we do agree that packet number<br>
&gt; encryption does not help likability (and thereby privacy) a lot, or at=
<br>
&gt; least that the benefits we might get (or not) do not justify the<br>
&gt; additional complexity.<br>
<br>
FWIW, which isn&#39;t much, I don&#39;t (yet) agree to the above.<br>
I reckon it&#39;ll be a while before we know how linkability pans out. I do=
 agree that packet number encryption is not a panacea for unlinkability, bu=
t it may help, or may even end up being required, to do a good job wrt link=
ability.<br>
<br>
I also heard people say it was less complex for them so &quot;additional co=
mplexity&quot; may also not be quite right. (I guess &quot;differently comp=
lex&quot; is correct though.)<br>
<br>
S.<br>
<br>
--<br>
PGP key change time for me.<br>
New-ID 7B172BEA; old-ID 805F8DA2 expires Jan 24 2018.<br>
NewWithOld sigs in keyservers.<br>
Sorry if that mucks something up;-)<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a114e326e5c023005649325d2--


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References: <CABkgnnVyo3MmWtVULiV=FJTnR528qfY8-OmKGWAs0bCvri-a_g@mail.gmail.com> <1F7FB3B8-A94C-4354-9944-FB09FB8DB68B@trammell.ch> <CABcZeBMbwdwyC9TxxHBLYaZKfNB-FG2wCGjqUZ_mNR-A1R47FA@mail.gmail.com> <9096e5ec-581e-875a-b1dd-bff0b05206fd@huitema.net> <CABkgnnWRQSAufwPss+qf=xAzCwRYeNNH8XLPm3yFaHxOb+ba4g@mail.gmail.com> <BF80500A-6277-45DC-8525-9C3FE138B76D@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <5A7191E0.6010003@erg.abdn.ac.uk> <5214AD93-8376-4B25-922F-AF5551CC2E95@netapp.com> <F990E064-E6F8-41A3-B791-F776C9955E15@nokia.com> <CAGD1bZab0GaZFsHwC+nw3AxxC4VusxMJ6oDanzk3dSDdWKAXdw@mail.gmail.com> <2C515BE8694C6F4B9B6A578BCAC32E2F83BA1443@MBX021-W3-CA-2.exch021.domain.local> <BY2PR15MB07757473DB9788558B902EB5CDF80@BY2PR15MB0775.namprd15.prod.outlook.com> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD861B7F@DGGEMM506-MBX.china.huawei.com> <e529144067624fcba636fc8c24ee3ff4@usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com> <BY2PR15MB07754D83A1721F2BD742359BCDFE0@BY2PR15MB0775.namprd15.prod.outlook.com> <2CD9DC43-D69B-43F0-8474-DFE798850A52@akamai.com> <CAGD1bZaUuNxqpDkn62B0wWcFD8=mCUWrAwWGG-rAOxH7Mf1=cQ@mail.gmail.com> <CY4PR21MB01334E30C7AF6AE75F58EEFDB6FE0@CY4PR21MB0133.namprd21.prod.outlook.com> <CAGD1bZaxrqzdkk0wxRaULwOTgg6wnrSrXNBK31s4uxdozaACBA@mail.gmail.com> <CAGD1bZbOAaSBcQw4nVtGuwRunaAW8MYHq9yPxNN6DdKHzt5HtQ@mail.gmail.com> <CANatvzx+uDHMV5XS=OuVYBqe_RYX=EmVWAmjuONS8BpNYCPweA@mail.gmail.com> <5233815B-00F3-4961-ABB8-505906258B89@trammell.ch> <CAN1APdcuKSLYw4Odyc4g=+4_+ojsNekeqmM9eYqxykkfxRx3Cg@mail.gmail.com>, <CANatvzz3rmGPRgu1Z5+bAHhgjiN3L5OVTDhb4fmpPX+M8o4z3w@mail.gmail.com>
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I actually think a static 1KB table of Pi could work quite well.

A subset of samples could be indexed in a hashtable and yield loss data ear=
ly with some probability. Some samples would miss due to reordering or loss=
. If more exact analysis is wanted the levenshtein distance of a sample seq=
uence against Pi from a synced offset would tell a lot about the data. Or D=
NA sequencing. This could be hardware optimized.

Yet, transmission is always just the next bit in the Pi table.

Since Pi is effectively random it will ebentually detect mutations if the o=
bserved sequence is long enough.

Wrt privacy, the CID may be used as a start offset hash into the Pi table.

There isn't any need to cover a full RTT worth of Pi bits unless it is used=
 for latency detection, but in that case the spin could be a pattern like 1=
0101010 and 00001111 injected into the Pi sequence. A separate spin bit wou=
ld be simpler.


________________________________
From: Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 6, 2018 5:22:35 PM
To: Mikkel Fahn=F8e J=F8rgensen
Cc: Brian Trammell (IETF); QUIC WG
Subject: Re: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image (was Re: Packet =
number encryption)

2018-02-06 23:54 GMT+09:00 Mikkel Fahn=F8e J=F8rgensen <mikkelfj@gmail.com>=
:
> This idea can be taken further: You can modulate the signal so you use
> multiple packets to encode a zero or a one for half the wave duration. Fo=
r
> example 1 could be encoded as 0101 over four packets and zero could be
> encoded as 0011 over four packets.
> If there is any reordering, it would show up as an unexpected value in th=
e
> pulse.

That's definitely an option.

Actually, I considered using sin wave (that distributes the error
among 1-bit samples) as an example instead of the square wave.

The primary reason behind my preference to using a square wave is that
it is easier to implement; in fact, emitting a square wave with the
length of 512 packets is as easy as just taking the 9th bit (counting
from LSB) of the packet number (if we forget about the gaps for a
moment).


--
Kazuho Oku

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ganization"><span itemprop=3D"name"></span></span>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"direction:ltr">I actually think a static 1KB table of Pi coul=
d work quite well.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"direction:ltr">A subset of samples could be indexed in a hash=
table and yield loss data early with some probability. Some samples would m=
iss due to reordering or loss. If more exact analysis is wanted the levensh=
tein distance of a sample sequence
 against Pi from a synced offset would tell a lot about the data. Or DNA se=
quencing. This could be hardware optimized.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"direction:ltr">Yet, transmission is always just the next bit =
in the Pi table.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"direction:ltr">Since Pi is effectively random it will ebentua=
lly detect mutations if the observed sequence is long enough.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"direction:ltr">Wrt privacy, the CID may be used as a start of=
fset hash into the Pi table.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"direction:ltr">There isn&#8217;t any need to cover a full RTT=
 worth of Pi bits unless it is used for latency detection, but in that case=
 the spin could be a pattern like 10101010 and 00001111 injected into the P=
i sequence. A separate spin bit would be
 simpler.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"x_acompli_signature"></div>
</div>
</div>
<hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id=3D"x_divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" =
color=3D"#000000" style=3D"font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> Kazuho Oku &lt;kazu=
hooku@gmail.com&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 6, 2018 5:22:35 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mikkel Fahn=F8e J=F8rgensen<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Brian Trammell (IETF); QUIC WG<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image (was Re: =
Packet number encryption)</font>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
</div>
<font size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;">
<div class=3D"PlainText">2018-02-06 23:54 GMT&#43;09:00 Mikkel Fahn=F8e J=
=F8rgensen &lt;mikkelfj@gmail.com&gt;:<br>
&gt; This idea can be taken further: You can modulate the signal so you use=
<br>
&gt; multiple packets to encode a zero or a one for half the wave duration.=
 For<br>
&gt; example 1 could be encoded as 0101 over four packets and zero could be=
<br>
&gt; encoded as 0011 over four packets.<br>
&gt; If there is any reordering, it would show up as an unexpected value in=
 the<br>
&gt; pulse.<br>
<br>
That's definitely an option.<br>
<br>
Actually, I considered using sin wave (that distributes the error<br>
among 1-bit samples) as an example instead of the square wave.<br>
<br>
The primary reason behind my preference to using a square wave is that<br>
it is easier to implement; in fact, emitting a square wave with the<br>
length of 512 packets is as easy as just taking the 9th bit (counting<br>
from LSB) of the packet number (if we forget about the gaps for a<br>
moment).<br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Kazuho Oku<br>
</div>
</span></font>
</body>
</html>

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From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mikkel_Fahn=F8e_J=F8rgensen?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>
To: Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>, Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>
CC: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>, =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mirja_K=FChlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, "Brian Trammell (IETF)" <ietf@trammell.ch>, Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>, "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
Thread-Topic: Packet number encryption
Thread-Index: AWdzZj0zCJVGNsv3EmSkq0r1tERDAUJGNDQ4QW1HTGRkYmQ4Y2dGTmZTREUyNEEzMDZFMTU1MjQzNUM5NDR3M3h3RzNGQkI4MEU1MzBGQ0E5QzQ0NmYwMDUyMzAyOTc0M1FBVTBOMEVFMDBBNHJVcVE2TUdhNzRENDJnMWRGNqt9wcKAgAADUYCAACdFAIAAVRYAgAATm1Q=
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Sounds reasonable to me. You could add that the transformation should be sp=
ace efficient.

________________________________
From: Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 7, 2018 12:00:32 AM
To: Mike Bishop
Cc: Stephen Farrell; Mirja K=FChlewind; Mikkel Fahn=F8e J=F8rgensen; Brian =
Trammell (IETF); Praveen Balasubramanian; QUIC WG; Roberto Peon; Lubashev, =
Igor; Salz, Rich
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption

I'm going to try a different attempt at moving towards convergence. Thinkin=
g about this some more, and picking up something that Mirja said way earlie=
r in this thread, I think the following decomposition is useful.

1. In the transport, all packet numbers start at 0, increasing monotonicall=
y. ACK frames carry these packet numbers, and therefore do not have to span=
 large gaps and do not have to deal with increases in the size of the large=
st acked. Basically, no gaps are visible within the transport processing en=
gine.
2. Before sending a packet on the wire, and before processing the packet, Q=
UIC transforms the packet number with some function, replacing the visible =
packet number with the transformed value.

I think we can all agree that (1) is goodness. A sender is also free to use=
 packet numbers from non-contiguous spaces here FWIW, but that's entirely i=
ndependent of what's visible on the wire. This helps me separate transport =
processing complexity from the rest of it, which I think is helpful.

I think we are disagreeing on the precise properties we want from the trans=
formation in (2). If we can agree on these properties, we can then figure o=
ut whether it's possible and how to construct such a transform. Here's a un=
ion of what folks are concerned about:
1. Packet number must be unlinkable across connection ID change (for migrat=
ion.)
2. Packet number must start at an arbitrary value, to avoid ossification of=
 the first packet number.
3. Some sequencing information -- a few bits of the packet number perhaps -=
- should be revealed (for monitoring. Number of bits TBD.)
4. Any packet number transformation should not be compute intensive.

I'm not looking for a construction, but I'd like to agree on the problem fi=
rst. Does this sound like the set of properties we want? Or is there a cont=
radiction among these properties that I'm not seeing?

On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 9:56 AM, Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be<mailto:mb=
ishop@evequefou.be>> wrote:
Packet number encryption *does* improve linkability equivalently to random =
jumps, but without the fragmentation of the ACK packet which those jumps ot=
herwise cause.  So I'm with Stephen, we don't yet have agreement on that as=
sertion.

-----Original Message-----
From: QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org>] On =
Behalf Of Stephen Farrell
Sent: Tuesday, February 6, 2018 7:35 AM
To: Mirja K=FChlewind <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch<mailto:mirja.kuehlew=
ind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>>; Mikkel Fahn=F8e J=F8rgensen <mikkelfj@gmail.com<mailt=
o:mikkelfj@gmail.com>>; Brian Trammell (IETF) <ietf@trammell.ch<mailto:ietf=
@trammell.ch>>; Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com<mailto:jri@google.com>>
Cc: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com<mailto:pravb@microsoft.com=
>>; QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org<mailto:quic@ietf.org>>; Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.c=
om<mailto:fenix@fb.com>>; Lubashev, Igor <ilubashe@akamai.com<mailto:ilubas=
he@akamai.com>>; Salz, Rich <rsalz@akamai.com<mailto:rsalz@akamai.com>>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption



On 06/02/18 15:23, Mirja K=FChlewind wrote:
>
> It's also my understanding that we do agree that packet number
> encryption does not help likability (and thereby privacy) a lot, or at
> least that the benefits we might get (or not) do not justify the
> additional complexity.

FWIW, which isn't much, I don't (yet) agree to the above.
I reckon it'll be a while before we know how linkability pans out. I do agr=
ee that packet number encryption is not a panacea for unlinkability, but it=
 may help, or may even end up being required, to do a good job wrt linkabil=
ity.

I also heard people say it was less complex for them so "additional complex=
ity" may also not be quite right. (I guess "differently complex" is correct=
 though.)

S.

--
PGP key change time for me.
New-ID 7B172BEA; old-ID 805F8DA2 expires Jan 24 2018.
NewWithOld sigs in keyservers.
Sorry if that mucks something up;-)


--_000_DB6PR10MB1766F4CAD36D6098F9F69AA7ACFC0DB6PR10MB1766EURP_
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-=
1">
<meta content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8">
</head>
<body>
<div id=3D"compose-container" itemscope=3D"" itemtype=3D"https://schema.org=
/EmailMessage" style=3D"direction:ltr">
<span itemprop=3D"creator" itemscope=3D"" itemtype=3D"https://schema.org/Or=
ganization"><span itemprop=3D"name"></span></span>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"direction:ltr">Sounds reasonable to me. You could add that th=
e transformation should be space efficient.</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"acompli_signature"></div>
</div>
</div>
<hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" co=
lor=3D"#000000" style=3D"font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> Jana Iyengar &lt;jri@=
google.com&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 7, 2018 12:00:32 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mike Bishop<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Stephen Farrell; Mirja K=FChlewind; Mikkel Fahn=F8e J=F8rgensen;=
 Brian Trammell (IETF); Praveen Balasubramanian; QUIC WG; Roberto Peon; Lub=
ashev, Igor; Salz, Rich<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Packet number encryption</font>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">I'm going to try a different attempt at moving towards con=
vergence.&nbsp;Thinking about this some more, and picking up something that=
 Mirja said way earlier in this thread, I think the following decomposition=
 is useful.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>1. In the transport, all packet numbers start at 0, increasing monoton=
ically. ACK frames carry these packet numbers, and therefore do not have to=
 span large gaps and do not have to deal with increases in the size of the =
largest acked. Basically, no gaps
 are visible within the transport processing engine.</div>
<div>2. Before sending a packet on the wire, and before processing the pack=
et, QUIC transforms the packet number with some function, replacing the vis=
ible packet number with the transformed value.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I think we can all agree that (1) is goodness. A sender is also free t=
o use packet numbers from non-contiguous spaces here FWIW, but that's entir=
ely independent of what's visible on the wire. This helps me separate trans=
port processing complexity from
 the rest of it, which I think is helpful.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I think we are disagreeing on the precise properties we want from the =
transformation in (2). If we can agree on these properties, we can then fig=
ure out whether it's possible and how to construct such a transform. Here's=
 a union of what folks are concerned
 about:</div>
<div>1. Packet number must be unlinkable across connection ID change (for m=
igration.)</div>
<div>2. Packet number must start at an arbitrary value, to avoid ossificati=
on of the first packet number.</div>
<div>3. Some sequencing information -- a few bits of the packet number perh=
aps -- should be revealed (for monitoring. Number of bits TBD.)</div>
<div>4. Any packet number transformation should not be compute intensive.</=
div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I'm not looking for a construction, but I'd like to agree on the probl=
em first. Does this sound like the set of properties we want? Or is there a=
 contradiction among these properties that I'm not seeing?</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 9:56 AM, Mike Bishop <spa=
n dir=3D"ltr">
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbishop@evequefou.be" target=3D"_blank">mbishop@evequ=
efou.be</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex; border-left:1=
px #ccc solid; padding-left:1ex">
Packet number encryption *does* improve linkability equivalently to random =
jumps, but without the fragmentation of the ACK packet which those jumps ot=
herwise cause.&nbsp; So I'm with Stephen, we don't yet have agreement on th=
at assertion.<br>
<span class=3D"im HOEnZb"><br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: QUIC [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org">quic-bounces@ie=
tf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Stephen Farrell<br>
Sent: Tuesday, February 6, 2018 7:35 AM<br>
To: Mirja K=FChlewind &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch=
">mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.<wbr>ch</a>&gt;; Mikkel Fahn=F8e J=F8rgensen=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com">mikkelfj@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Bria=
n Trammell (IETF) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@trammell.ch">ietf@trammell.ch<=
/a>&gt;;
 Jana Iyengar &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jri@google.com">jri@google.com</a>&gt;<=
br>
Cc: Praveen Balasubramanian &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pravb@microsoft.com">prav=
b@microsoft.com</a>&gt;; QUIC WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@=
ietf.org</a>&gt;; Roberto Peon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.com">fenix@fb=
.com</a>&gt;; Lubashev, Igor &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ilubashe@akamai.com">ilu=
bashe@akamai.com</a>&gt;;
 Salz, Rich &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rsalz@akamai.com">rsalz@akamai.com</a>&gt=
;<br>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span>
<div class=3D"HOEnZb">
<div class=3D"h5">On 06/02/18 15:23, Mirja K=FChlewind wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; It's also my understanding that we do agree that packet number<br>
&gt; encryption does not help likability (and thereby privacy) a lot, or at=
<br>
&gt; least that the benefits we might get (or not) do not justify the<br>
&gt; additional complexity.<br>
<br>
FWIW, which isn't much, I don't (yet) agree to the above.<br>
I reckon it'll be a while before we know how linkability pans out. I do agr=
ee that packet number encryption is not a panacea for unlinkability, but it=
 may help, or may even end up being required, to do a good job wrt linkabil=
ity.<br>
<br>
I also heard people say it was less complex for them so &quot;additional co=
mplexity&quot; may also not be quite right. (I guess &quot;differently comp=
lex&quot; is correct though.)<br>
<br>
S.<br>
<br>
--<br>
PGP key change time for me.<br>
New-ID 7B172BEA; old-ID 805F8DA2 expires Jan 24 2018.<br>
NewWithOld sigs in keyservers.<br>
Sorry if that mucks something up;-)<br>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_DB6PR10MB1766F4CAD36D6098F9F69AA7ACFC0DB6PR10MB1766EURP_--


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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 16:13:32 -0800
Message-ID: <CABcZeBPNrc-9vANSH02r++p53s6gN4pVB8DMd80nUxOhKTp3dA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
To: Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>
Cc: Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>, Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>,  "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>,  =?UTF-8?Q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>,  "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>, "Brian Trammell (IETF)" <ietf@trammell.ch>,  =?UTF-8?Q?Mikkel_Fahn=C3=B8e_J=C3=B8rgensen?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>,  QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
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On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 3:00 PM, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com> wrote:

> I'm going to try a different attempt at moving towards
> convergence. Thinking about this some more, and picking up something that
> Mirja said way earlier in this thread, I think the following decompositio=
n
> is useful.
>
> 1. In the transport, all packet numbers start at 0, increasing
> monotonically. ACK frames carry these packet numbers, and therefore do no=
t
> have to span large gaps and do not have to deal with increases in the siz=
e
> of the largest acked. Basically, no gaps are visible within the transport
> processing engine.
> 2. Before sending a packet on the wire, and before processing the packet,
> QUIC transforms the packet number with some function, replacing the visib=
le
> packet number with the transformed value.
>
> I think we can all agree that (1) is goodness. A sender is also free to
> use packet numbers from non-contiguous spaces here FWIW, but that's
> entirely independent of what's visible on the wire. This helps me separat=
e
> transport processing complexity from the rest of it, which I think is
> helpful.
>
> I think we are disagreeing on the precise properties we want from the
> transformation in (2). If we can agree on these properties, we can then
> figure out whether it's possible and how to construct such a transform.
> Here's a union of what folks are concerned about:
> 1. Packet number must be unlinkable across connection ID change (for
> migration.)
> 2. Packet number must start at an arbitrary value, to avoid ossification
> of the first packet number.
>
3. Some sequencing information -- a few bits of the packet number perhaps
> -- should be revealed (for monitoring. Number of bits TBD.)
>

I'm not sure I am persuaded of this point

-Ekr


> 4. Any packet number transformation should not be compute intensive.
>
> I'm not looking for a construction, but I'd like to agree on the problem
> first. Does this sound like the set of properties we want? Or is there a
> contradiction among these properties that I'm not seeing?
>
> On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 9:56 AM, Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be> wrote:
>
>> Packet number encryption *does* improve linkability equivalently to
>> random jumps, but without the fragmentation of the ACK packet which thos=
e
>> jumps otherwise cause.  So I'm with Stephen, we don't yet have agreement=
 on
>> that assertion.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Farrell
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 6, 2018 7:35 AM
>> To: Mirja K=C3=BChlewind <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>; Mikkel Fahn=
=C3=B8e
>> J=C3=B8rgensen <mikkelfj@gmail.com>; Brian Trammell (IETF) <ietf@trammel=
l.ch>;
>> Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>
>> Cc: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>; QUIC WG <quic@ietf.or=
g>;
>> Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>; Lubashev, Igor <ilubashe@akamai.com>; Salz,
>> Rich <rsalz@akamai.com>
>> Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
>>
>>
>>
>> On 06/02/18 15:23, Mirja K=C3=BChlewind wrote:
>> >
>> > It's also my understanding that we do agree that packet number
>> > encryption does not help likability (and thereby privacy) a lot, or at
>> > least that the benefits we might get (or not) do not justify the
>> > additional complexity.
>>
>> FWIW, which isn't much, I don't (yet) agree to the above.
>> I reckon it'll be a while before we know how linkability pans out. I do
>> agree that packet number encryption is not a panacea for unlinkability, =
but
>> it may help, or may even end up being required, to do a good job wrt
>> linkability.
>>
>> I also heard people say it was less complex for them so "additional
>> complexity" may also not be quite right. (I guess "differently complex" =
is
>> correct though.)
>>
>> S.
>>
>> --
>> PGP key change time for me.
>> New-ID 7B172BEA; old-ID 805F8DA2 expires Jan 24 2018.
>> NewWithOld sigs in keyservers.
>> Sorry if that mucks something up;-)
>>
>
>

--089e0828a13ccd4c330564942cbb
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 3:00 PM, Jana Iyengar <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:jri@google.com" target=3D"_blank">jri@google.com</a>&gt;</spa=
n> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;b=
order-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">I&#39;m going =
to try a different attempt at moving towards convergence.=C2=A0Thinking abo=
ut this some more, and picking up something that Mirja said way earlier in =
this thread, I think the following decomposition is useful.<div><br></div><=
div>1. In the transport, all packet numbers start at 0, increasing monotoni=
cally. ACK frames carry these packet numbers, and therefore do not have to =
span large gaps and do not have to deal with increases in the size of the l=
argest acked. Basically, no gaps are visible within the transport processin=
g engine.</div><div>2. Before sending a packet on the wire, and before proc=
essing the packet, QUIC transforms the packet number with some function, re=
placing the visible packet number with the transformed value.<br></div><div=
><br></div><div>I think we can all agree that (1) is goodness. A sender is =
also free to use packet numbers from non-contiguous spaces here FWIW, but t=
hat&#39;s entirely independent of what&#39;s visible on the wire. This help=
s me separate transport processing complexity from the rest of it, which I =
think is helpful.</div><div><br></div><div>I think we are disagreeing on th=
e precise properties we want from the transformation in (2). If we can agre=
e on these properties, we can then figure out whether it&#39;s possible and=
 how to construct such a transform. Here&#39;s a union of what folks are co=
ncerned about:</div><div>1. Packet number must be unlinkable across connect=
ion ID change (for migration.)</div><div>2. Packet number must start at an =
arbitrary value, to avoid ossification of the first packet number.</div></d=
iv></blockquote><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8e=
x;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>3. Som=
e sequencing information -- a few bits of the packet number perhaps -- shou=
ld be revealed (for monitoring. Number of bits TBD.)</div></div></blockquot=
e><div><br></div><div>I&#39;m not sure I am persuaded of this point</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>-Ekr</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"=
><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>4. Any packet number transformation should not be co=
mpute intensive.</div><div><br></div><div>I&#39;m not looking for a constru=
ction, but I&#39;d like to agree on the problem first. Does this sound like=
 the set of properties we want? Or is there a contradiction among these pro=
perties that I&#39;m not seeing?</div></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div clas=
s=3D"h5"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, =
Feb 6, 2018 at 9:56 AM, Mike Bishop <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:mbishop@evequefou.be" target=3D"_blank">mbishop@evequefou.be</a>&gt;</span=
> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Packet number encryption *does* =
improve linkability equivalently to random jumps, but without the fragmenta=
tion of the ACK packet which those jumps otherwise cause.=C2=A0 So I&#39;m =
with Stephen, we don&#39;t yet have agreement on that assertion.<br>
<span class=3D"m_646544787420138158im m_646544787420138158HOEnZb"><br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: QUIC [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blan=
k">quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Stephen Farrell<br>
Sent: Tuesday, February 6, 2018 7:35 AM<br>
To: Mirja K=C3=BChlewind &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz=
.ch" target=3D"_blank">mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.<wbr>ch</a>&gt;; Mikkel=
 Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">mikkelfj@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Brian Trammell (IETF) &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:ietf@trammell.ch" target=3D"_blank">ietf@trammell.ch</a>&gt;; Ja=
na Iyengar &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jri@google.com" target=3D"_blank">jri@goog=
le.com</a>&gt;<br>
Cc: Praveen Balasubramanian &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pravb@microsoft.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">pravb@microsoft.com</a>&gt;; QUIC WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:qu=
ic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Roberto Peon &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.com" target=3D"_blank">fenix@fb.com</a>&gt;; Lubashe=
v, Igor &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ilubashe@akamai.com" target=3D"_blank">ilubas=
he@akamai.com</a>&gt;; Salz, Rich &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rsalz@akamai.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank">rsalz@akamai.com</a>&gt;<br>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span><div class=3D"m_646544787420138158HOEnZb"><div class=3D"m_6465447874=
20138158h5">On 06/02/18 15:23, Mirja K=C3=BChlewind wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; It&#39;s also my understanding that we do agree that packet number<br>
&gt; encryption does not help likability (and thereby privacy) a lot, or at=
<br>
&gt; least that the benefits we might get (or not) do not justify the<br>
&gt; additional complexity.<br>
<br>
FWIW, which isn&#39;t much, I don&#39;t (yet) agree to the above.<br>
I reckon it&#39;ll be a while before we know how linkability pans out. I do=
 agree that packet number encryption is not a panacea for unlinkability, bu=
t it may help, or may even end up being required, to do a good job wrt link=
ability.<br>
<br>
I also heard people say it was less complex for them so &quot;additional co=
mplexity&quot; may also not be quite right. (I guess &quot;differently comp=
lex&quot; is correct though.)<br>
<br>
S.<br>
<br>
--<br>
PGP key change time for me.<br>
New-ID 7B172BEA; old-ID 805F8DA2 expires Jan 24 2018.<br>
NewWithOld sigs in keyservers.<br>
Sorry if that mucks something up;-)<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--089e0828a13ccd4c330564942cbb--


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From: =?Windows-1252?Q?Mikkel_Fahn=F8e_J=F8rgensen?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>
To: Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>
CC: "Brian Trammell (IETF)" <ietf@trammell.ch>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image (was Re: Packet number encryption)
Thread-Topic: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image (was Re: Packet number encryption)
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Also note that this approach is insensitive to skipped packet numbers in op=
timistic ACK attack defence. It leaks zero information when the network is =
perfect and if the CID hash is random.

________________________________
From: Mikkel Fahn=F8e J=F8rgensen <mikkelfj@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 7, 2018 12:58:33 AM
To: Kazuho Oku
Cc: Brian Trammell (IETF); QUIC WG
Subject: Re: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image (was Re: Packet =
number encryption)

I actually think a static 1KB table of Pi could work quite well.

A subset of samples could be indexed in a hashtable and yield loss data ear=
ly with some probability. Some samples would miss due to reordering or loss=
. If more exact analysis is wanted the levenshtein distance of a sample seq=
uence against Pi from a synced offset would tell a lot about the data. Or D=
NA sequencing. This could be hardware optimized.

Yet, transmission is always just the next bit in the Pi table.

Since Pi is effectively random it will ebentually detect mutations if the o=
bserved sequence is long enough.

Wrt privacy, the CID may be used as a start offset hash into the Pi table.

There isn=92t any need to cover a full RTT worth of Pi bits unless it is us=
ed for latency detection, but in that case the spin could be a pattern like=
 10101010 and 00001111 injected into the Pi sequence. A separate spin bit w=
ould be simpler.


________________________________
From: Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 6, 2018 5:22:35 PM
To: Mikkel Fahn=F8e J=F8rgensen
Cc: Brian Trammell (IETF); QUIC WG
Subject: Re: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image (was Re: Packet =
number encryption)

2018-02-06 23:54 GMT+09:00 Mikkel Fahn=F8e J=F8rgensen <mikkelfj@gmail.com>=
:
> This idea can be taken further: You can modulate the signal so you use
> multiple packets to encode a zero or a one for half the wave duration. Fo=
r
> example 1 could be encoded as 0101 over four packets and zero could be
> encoded as 0011 over four packets.
> If there is any reordering, it would show up as an unexpected value in th=
e
> pulse.

That's definitely an option.

Actually, I considered using sin wave (that distributes the error
among 1-bit samples) as an example instead of the square wave.

The primary reason behind my preference to using a square wave is that
it is easier to implement; in fact, emitting a square wave with the
length of 512 packets is as easy as just taking the 9th bit (counting
from LSB) of the packet number (if we forget about the gaps for a
moment).


--
Kazuho Oku

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<html>
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252">
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<span itemprop=3D"creator" itemscope=3D"" itemtype=3D"https://schema.org/Or=
ganization"><span itemprop=3D"name"></span></span>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"direction:ltr">Also note that this approach is insensitive to=
 skipped packet numbers in optimistic ACK attack defence. It leaks zero inf=
ormation when the network is perfect and if the CID hash is random.</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"acompli_signature"></div>
</div>
</div>
<hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" co=
lor=3D"#000000" style=3D"font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> Mikkel Fahn=F8e J=F8r=
gensen &lt;mikkelfj@gmail.com&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 7, 2018 12:58:33 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Kazuho Oku<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Brian Trammell (IETF); QUIC WG<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image (was Re: =
Packet number encryption)</font>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div id=3D"x_compose-container" itemscope=3D"" itemtype=3D"https://schema.o=
rg/EmailMessage" style=3D"direction:ltr">
<span itemprop=3D"creator" itemscope=3D"" itemtype=3D"https://schema.org/Or=
ganization"><span itemprop=3D"name"></span></span>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"direction:ltr">I actually think a static 1KB table of Pi coul=
d work quite well.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"direction:ltr">A subset of samples could be indexed in a hash=
table and yield loss data early with some probability. Some samples would m=
iss due to reordering or loss. If more exact analysis is wanted the levensh=
tein distance of a sample sequence
 against Pi from a synced offset would tell a lot about the data. Or DNA se=
quencing. This could be hardware optimized.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"direction:ltr">Yet, transmission is always just the next bit =
in the Pi table.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"direction:ltr">Since Pi is effectively random it will ebentua=
lly detect mutations if the observed sequence is long enough.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"direction:ltr">Wrt privacy, the CID may be used as a start of=
fset hash into the Pi table.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"direction:ltr">There isn=92t any need to cover a full RTT wor=
th of Pi bits unless it is used for latency detection, but in that case the=
 spin could be a pattern like 10101010 and 00001111 injected into the Pi se=
quence. A separate spin bit would be
 simpler.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"x_acompli_signature"></div>
</div>
</div>
<hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id=3D"x_divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" =
color=3D"#000000" style=3D"font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> Kazuho Oku &lt;kazu=
hooku@gmail.com&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 6, 2018 5:22:35 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mikkel Fahn=F8e J=F8rgensen<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Brian Trammell (IETF); QUIC WG<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image (was Re: =
Packet number encryption)</font>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
</div>
<font size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt">
<div class=3D"PlainText">2018-02-06 23:54 GMT&#43;09:00 Mikkel Fahn=F8e J=
=F8rgensen &lt;mikkelfj@gmail.com&gt;:<br>
&gt; This idea can be taken further: You can modulate the signal so you use=
<br>
&gt; multiple packets to encode a zero or a one for half the wave duration.=
 For<br>
&gt; example 1 could be encoded as 0101 over four packets and zero could be=
<br>
&gt; encoded as 0011 over four packets.<br>
&gt; If there is any reordering, it would show up as an unexpected value in=
 the<br>
&gt; pulse.<br>
<br>
That's definitely an option.<br>
<br>
Actually, I considered using sin wave (that distributes the error<br>
among 1-bit samples) as an example instead of the square wave.<br>
<br>
The primary reason behind my preference to using a square wave is that<br>
it is easier to implement; in fact, emitting a square wave with the<br>
length of 512 packets is as easy as just taking the 9th bit (counting<br>
from LSB) of the packet number (if we forget about the gaps for a<br>
moment).<br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Kazuho Oku<br>
</div>
</span></font></div>
</body>
</html>

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From: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 20:05:06 -0500
Message-ID: <CAKcm_gMvHSBhpUvsQCCkV2_o+d_wchF3R3L6H8mp6nKNaaRmSw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Cc: Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>,  Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>, "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>,  Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>, "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>,  =?UTF-8?Q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>,  =?UTF-8?Q?Mikkel_Fahn=C3=B8e_J=C3=B8rgensen?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>,  "Brian Trammell (IETF)" <ietf@trammell.ch>, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
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Thanks Jana, I think this is a nice framing of the problem and discussion.

On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 7:13 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 3:00 PM, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com> wrote:
>
>> I'm going to try a different attempt at moving towards
>> convergence. Thinking about this some more, and picking up something tha=
t
>> Mirja said way earlier in this thread, I think the following decompositi=
on
>> is useful.
>>
>> 1. In the transport, all packet numbers start at 0, increasing
>> monotonically. ACK frames carry these packet numbers, and therefore do n=
ot
>> have to span large gaps and do not have to deal with increases in the si=
ze
>> of the largest acked. Basically, no gaps are visible within the transpor=
t
>> processing engine.
>> 2. Before sending a packet on the wire, and before processing the packet=
,
>> QUIC transforms the packet number with some function, replacing the visi=
ble
>> packet number with the transformed value.
>>
>> I think we can all agree that (1) is goodness. A sender is also free to
>> use packet numbers from non-contiguous spaces here FWIW, but that's
>> entirely independent of what's visible on the wire. This helps me separa=
te
>> transport processing complexity from the rest of it, which I think is
>> helpful.
>>
>> I think we are disagreeing on the precise properties we want from the
>> transformation in (2). If we can agree on these properties, we can then
>> figure out whether it's possible and how to construct such a transform.
>> Here's a union of what folks are concerned about:
>> 1. Packet number must be unlinkable across connection ID change (for
>> migration.)
>> 2. Packet number must start at an arbitrary value, to avoid ossification
>> of the first packet number.
>>
> 3. Some sequencing information -- a few bits of the packet number perhaps
>> -- should be revealed (for monitoring. Number of bits TBD.)
>>
>
> I'm not sure I am persuaded of this point
>

Yes, I think this seems like the largest point of contention, and #4 is the
second largest concern.  Given that, I think it makes sense to try to
resolve #3, if that is possible.


> -Ekr
>
>
>> 4. Any packet number transformation should not be compute intensive.
>>
>> I'm not looking for a construction, but I'd like to agree on the problem
>> first. Does this sound like the set of properties we want? Or is there a
>> contradiction among these properties that I'm not seeing?
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 9:56 AM, Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be> wrote=
:
>>
>>> Packet number encryption *does* improve linkability equivalently to
>>> random jumps, but without the fragmentation of the ACK packet which tho=
se
>>> jumps otherwise cause.  So I'm with Stephen, we don't yet have agreemen=
t on
>>> that assertion.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Farrell
>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 6, 2018 7:35 AM
>>> To: Mirja K=C3=BChlewind <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>; Mikkel Fahn=
=C3=B8e
>>> J=C3=B8rgensen <mikkelfj@gmail.com>; Brian Trammell (IETF) <ietf@tramme=
ll.ch>;
>>> Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>
>>> Cc: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>; QUIC WG <
>>> quic@ietf.org>; Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>; Lubashev, Igor <
>>> ilubashe@akamai.com>; Salz, Rich <rsalz@akamai.com>
>>> Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 06/02/18 15:23, Mirja K=C3=BChlewind wrote:
>>> >
>>> > It's also my understanding that we do agree that packet number
>>> > encryption does not help likability (and thereby privacy) a lot, or a=
t
>>> > least that the benefits we might get (or not) do not justify the
>>> > additional complexity.
>>>
>>> FWIW, which isn't much, I don't (yet) agree to the above.
>>> I reckon it'll be a while before we know how linkability pans out. I do
>>> agree that packet number encryption is not a panacea for unlinkability,=
 but
>>> it may help, or may even end up being required, to do a good job wrt
>>> linkability.
>>>
>>> I also heard people say it was less complex for them so "additional
>>> complexity" may also not be quite right. (I guess "differently complex"=
 is
>>> correct though.)
>>>
>>> S.
>>>
>>> --
>>> PGP key change time for me.
>>> New-ID 7B172BEA; old-ID 805F8DA2 expires Jan 24 2018.
>>> NewWithOld sigs in keyservers.
>>> Sorry if that mucks something up;-)
>>>
>>
>>
>

--001a1145bb480afc2e056494e49d
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Thanks Jana, I think this is a =
nice framing of the problem and discussion.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"=
><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 7:13 PM, Eric Rescor=
la <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">=
ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><s=
pan class=3D"">On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 3:00 PM, Jana Iyengar <span dir=3D"lt=
r">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jri@google.com" target=3D"_blank">jri@google.com</=
a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0=
 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">I&#=
39;m going to try a different attempt at moving towards convergence.=C2=A0T=
hinking about this some more, and picking up something that Mirja said way =
earlier in this thread, I think the following decomposition is useful.<div>=
<br></div><div>1. In the transport, all packet numbers start at 0, increasi=
ng monotonically. ACK frames carry these packet numbers, and therefore do n=
ot have to span large gaps and do not have to deal with increases in the si=
ze of the largest acked. Basically, no gaps are visible within the transpor=
t processing engine.</div><div>2. Before sending a packet on the wire, and =
before processing the packet, QUIC transforms the packet number with some f=
unction, replacing the visible packet number with the transformed value.<br=
></div><div><br></div><div>I think we can all agree that (1) is goodness. A=
 sender is also free to use packet numbers from non-contiguous spaces here =
FWIW, but that&#39;s entirely independent of what&#39;s visible on the wire=
. This helps me separate transport processing complexity from the rest of i=
t, which I think is helpful.</div><div><br></div><div>I think we are disagr=
eeing on the precise properties we want from the transformation in (2). If =
we can agree on these properties, we can then figure out whether it&#39;s p=
ossible and how to construct such a transform. Here&#39;s a union of what f=
olks are concerned about:</div><div>1. Packet number must be unlinkable acr=
oss connection ID change (for migration.)</div><div>2. Packet number must s=
tart at an arbitrary value, to avoid ossification of the first packet numbe=
r.</div></div></blockquote><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">=
<div>3. Some sequencing information -- a few bits of the packet number perh=
aps -- should be revealed (for monitoring. Number of bits TBD.)</div></div>=
</blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>I&#39;m not sure I am persuaded of =
this point</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes, I t=
hink this seems like the largest point of contention, and #4 is the second =
largest concern.=C2=A0 Given that, I think it makes sense to try to resolve=
 #3, if that is possible.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex=
"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><d=
iv><br></div><div>-Ekr</div><span class=3D""><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;=
padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>4. Any packet number transformation=
 should not be compute intensive.</div><div><br></div><div>I&#39;m not look=
ing for a construction, but I&#39;d like to agree on the problem first. Doe=
s this sound like the set of properties we want? Or is there a contradictio=
n among these properties that I&#39;m not seeing?</div></div><div class=3D"=
m_6152925501961584214HOEnZb"><div class=3D"m_6152925501961584214h5"><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 9=
:56 AM, Mike Bishop <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbishop@evequef=
ou.be" target=3D"_blank">mbishop@evequefou.be</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #c=
cc solid;padding-left:1ex">Packet number encryption *does* improve linkabil=
ity equivalently to random jumps, but without the fragmentation of the ACK =
packet which those jumps otherwise cause.=C2=A0 So I&#39;m with Stephen, we=
 don&#39;t yet have agreement on that assertion.<br>
<span class=3D"m_6152925501961584214m_646544787420138158im m_61529255019615=
84214m_646544787420138158HOEnZb"><br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: QUIC [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blan=
k">quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Stephen Farrell<br>
Sent: Tuesday, February 6, 2018 7:35 AM<br>
To: Mirja K=C3=BChlewind &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz=
.ch" target=3D"_blank">mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.<wbr>ch</a>&gt;; Mikkel=
 Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">mikkelfj@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Brian Trammell (IETF) &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:ietf@trammell.ch" target=3D"_blank">ietf@trammell.ch</a>&gt;; Ja=
na Iyengar &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jri@google.com" target=3D"_blank">jri@goog=
le.com</a>&gt;<br>
Cc: Praveen Balasubramanian &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pravb@microsoft.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">pravb@microsoft.com</a>&gt;; QUIC WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:qu=
ic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Roberto Peon &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.com" target=3D"_blank">fenix@fb.com</a>&gt;; Lubashe=
v, Igor &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ilubashe@akamai.com" target=3D"_blank">ilubas=
he@akamai.com</a>&gt;; Salz, Rich &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rsalz@akamai.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank">rsalz@akamai.com</a>&gt;<br>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</span><div class=3D"m_6152925501961584214m_646544787420138158HOEnZb"><div =
class=3D"m_6152925501961584214m_646544787420138158h5">On 06/02/18 15:23, Mi=
rja K=C3=BChlewind wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; It&#39;s also my understanding that we do agree that packet number<br>
&gt; encryption does not help likability (and thereby privacy) a lot, or at=
<br>
&gt; least that the benefits we might get (or not) do not justify the<br>
&gt; additional complexity.<br>
<br>
FWIW, which isn&#39;t much, I don&#39;t (yet) agree to the above.<br>
I reckon it&#39;ll be a while before we know how linkability pans out. I do=
 agree that packet number encryption is not a panacea for unlinkability, bu=
t it may help, or may even end up being required, to do a good job wrt link=
ability.<br>
<br>
I also heard people say it was less complex for them so &quot;additional co=
mplexity&quot; may also not be quite right. (I guess &quot;differently comp=
lex&quot; is correct though.)<br>
<br>
S.<br>
<br>
--<br>
PGP key change time for me.<br>
New-ID 7B172BEA; old-ID 805F8DA2 expires Jan 24 2018.<br>
NewWithOld sigs in keyservers.<br>
Sorry if that mucks something up;-)<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div></blockquote></span></div><br></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--001a1145bb480afc2e056494e49d--


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From: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
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Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 15:59:23 -1000
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Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
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On 2/6/2018 1:00 PM, Jana Iyengar wrote:
> I think we are disagreeing on the precise properties we want from the
> transformation in (2). If we can agree on these properties, we can
> then figure out whether it's possible and how to construct such a
> transform. Here's a union of what folks are concerned about:

> 1. Packet number must be unlinkable across connection ID change (for
> migration.)

Yes. And note the special case when the old and new connection overlap
for some time, so that packet N and N+2 may be sent on the old
connection, packet N+1 and N+3 on the new one. That kind of pattern
should be hidden.

> 2. Packet number must start at an arbitrary value, to avoid
> ossification of the first packet number.

Please explain the reasoning. What do you call packet number there, the
value in the ACK or the value in the header?

> 3. Some sequencing information -- a few bits of the packet number
> perhaps -- should be revealed (for monitoring. Number of bits TBD.)

Careful there. This is per path information, so the network might
monitor the quality of a path. To continue my example of N and N+2 on
the old connection, packet N+1 and N+3 on the new one, I would expose x
and x+1 on the old path, y and y+1 on the new path.

> 4. Any packet number transformation should not be compute intensive.

For some definition of compute intensive. The current PN encryption spec
costs 1 block operation; that compares to 8+8 blocks for a 128 byte
payload (encrypt and checksum), 80+80 on a 1280 byte payload -- 6%
encryption overhead on small packets, 0.6% on large ones. That's less
than the difference between AES and Chacha20.

>
> I'm not looking for a construction, but I'd like to agree on the
> problem first. Does this sound like the set of properties we want? Or
> is there a contradiction among these properties that I'm not seeing?

I am a bit concerned about placing too much emphasis on computation
cost. This can lead to "inventing our own crypto substitute". If the PN
encoding is easy to break, then it will be routinely broken and ossified.=


-- Christian Huitema


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From: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
To: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
CC: Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>, "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>, =?utf-8?B?TWlyamEgS8O8aGxld2luZA==?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, =?utf-8?B?TWlra2VsIEZhaG7DuGUgSsO4cmdlbnNlbg==?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>, "Brian Trammell (IETF)" <ietf@trammell.ch>, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
Subject: RE: Packet number encryption
Thread-Topic: Packet number encryption
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From: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 17:13:10 +1100
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Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
To: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
Cc: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>,  "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>,  =?UTF-8?Q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>,  Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>, "Brian Trammell (IETF)" <ietf@trammell.ch>, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>,  =?UTF-8?Q?Mikkel_Fahn=C3=B8e_J=C3=B8rgensen?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>,  QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
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That is exactly the solution I proposed.  As pointed out, this has
several shortcomings, one of which Christian explained in his last
email.  It is also not appreciably less computation.  Considerably
more care is required to get this right.

On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 1:04 PM, Praveen Balasubramanian
<pravb@microsoft.com> wrote:
> Great framing of the problem.
>
>
>
> Proposal: Transform =3D Add a secure and fixed random offset to the actua=
l
> packet number for the lifetime of one path. Transport level packet number=
s
> start at 0. On wire packet number start at the offset. Client and server
> pick the offsets independently. Each side communicates this offset number=
 in
> an encrypted frame until the first ACK. Other side subtracts the offset t=
o
> figure out actual packet number and uses that to maintain receiver state =
and
> generate ACKs.
>
>
>
> Packet number must be unlinkable across connection ID change (for
> migration.)
>
> Each path gets a new secure random increment so maintains unlikability
>
>
>
> Packet number must start at an arbitrary value, to avoid ossification of =
the
> first packet number.
>
> True by definition for on wire packet number
>
>
>
> Some sequencing information -- a few bits of the packet number perhaps --
> should be revealed (for monitoring. Number of bits TBD.)
>
> All of the bits are revealed on the wire and in sequence
>
>
>
> Any packet number transformation should not be compute intensive.
>
> Not at all compute intensive
>
>
>
> From: Ian Swett [mailto:ianswett@google.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 6, 2018 5:05 PM
> To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
> Cc: Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>; QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>; Praveen
> Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>; Lubashev, Igor <ilubashe@akamai.co=
m>;
> Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>; Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>; Salz, Ri=
ch
> <rsalz@akamai.com>; Mirja K=C3=BChlewind <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch=
>;
> Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen <mikkelfj@gmail.com>; Brian Trammell (I=
ETF)
> <ietf@trammell.ch>; Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
>
>
> Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
>
>
>
> Thanks Jana, I think this is a nice framing of the problem and discussion=
.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 7:13 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 3:00 PM, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com> wrote:
>
> I'm going to try a different attempt at moving towards convergence. Think=
ing
> about this some more, and picking up something that Mirja said way earlie=
r
> in this thread, I think the following decomposition is useful.
>
>
>
> 1. In the transport, all packet numbers start at 0, increasing
> monotonically. ACK frames carry these packet numbers, and therefore do no=
t
> have to span large gaps and do not have to deal with increases in the siz=
e
> of the largest acked. Basically, no gaps are visible within the transport
> processing engine.
>
> 2. Before sending a packet on the wire, and before processing the packet,
> QUIC transforms the packet number with some function, replacing the visib=
le
> packet number with the transformed value.
>
>
>
> I think we can all agree that (1) is goodness. A sender is also free to u=
se
> packet numbers from non-contiguous spaces here FWIW, but that's entirely
> independent of what's visible on the wire. This helps me separate transpo=
rt
> processing complexity from the rest of it, which I think is helpful.
>
>
>
> I think we are disagreeing on the precise properties we want from the
> transformation in (2). If we can agree on these properties, we can then
> figure out whether it's possible and how to construct such a transform.
> Here's a union of what folks are concerned about:
>
> 1. Packet number must be unlinkable across connection ID change (for
> migration.)
>
> 2. Packet number must start at an arbitrary value, to avoid ossification =
of
> the first packet number.
>
> 3. Some sequencing information -- a few bits of the packet number perhaps=
 --
> should be revealed (for monitoring. Number of bits TBD.)
>
>
>
> I'm not sure I am persuaded of this point
>
>
>
> Yes, I think this seems like the largest point of contention, and #4 is t=
he
> second largest concern.  Given that, I think it makes sense to try to
> resolve #3, if that is possible.
>
>
>
>
>
> -Ekr
>
>
>
> 4. Any packet number transformation should not be compute intensive.
>
>
>
> I'm not looking for a construction, but I'd like to agree on the problem
> first. Does this sound like the set of properties we want? Or is there a
> contradiction among these properties that I'm not seeing?
>
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 9:56 AM, Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be> wrote:
>
> Packet number encryption *does* improve linkability equivalently to rando=
m
> jumps, but without the fragmentation of the ACK packet which those jumps
> otherwise cause.  So I'm with Stephen, we don't yet have agreement on tha=
t
> assertion.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stephen Farrell
> Sent: Tuesday, February 6, 2018 7:35 AM
> To: Mirja K=C3=BChlewind <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>; Mikkel Fahn=
=C3=B8e
> J=C3=B8rgensen <mikkelfj@gmail.com>; Brian Trammell (IETF) <ietf@trammell=
.ch>;
> Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>
> Cc: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>; QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org=
>;
> Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>; Lubashev, Igor <ilubashe@akamai.com>; Salz,
> Rich <rsalz@akamai.com>
> Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
>
>
> On 06/02/18 15:23, Mirja K=C3=BChlewind wrote:
>>
>> It's also my understanding that we do agree that packet number
>> encryption does not help likability (and thereby privacy) a lot, or at
>> least that the benefits we might get (or not) do not justify the
>> additional complexity.
>
> FWIW, which isn't much, I don't (yet) agree to the above.
> I reckon it'll be a while before we know how linkability pans out. I do
> agree that packet number encryption is not a panacea for unlinkability, b=
ut
> it may help, or may even end up being required, to do a good job wrt
> linkability.
>
> I also heard people say it was less complex for them so "additional
> complexity" may also not be quite right. (I guess "differently complex" i=
s
> correct though.)
>
> S.
>
> --
> PGP key change time for me.
> New-ID 7B172BEA; old-ID 805F8DA2 expires Jan 24 2018.
> NewWithOld sigs in keyservers.
> Sorry if that mucks something up;-)
>
>
>
>
>
>


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From: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
To: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
CC: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>, "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, =?utf-8?B?TWlyamEgS8O8aGxld2luZA==?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>, "Brian Trammell (IETF)" <ietf@trammell.ch>, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>, =?utf-8?B?TWlra2VsIEZhaG7DuGUgSsO4cmdlbnNlbg==?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
Subject: RE: Packet number encryption
Thread-Topic: Packet number encryption
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On 2/6/2018 8:31 PM, Praveen Balasubramanian wrote:

> A subtraction and addition per packet is certainly much less computatio=
n compared to encryption/decryption. Our experiment shows 1 to 1.25% over=
head due by adding this extra crypto step in the data path. I don=E2=80=99=
t get the part about more care, its just a transform as Jana pointed out =
and the core transport code doesn=E2=80=99t need to make any changes, the=
 transform is simply done during framing after or before all processing. =
I'd like to understand the shortcomings better and see if we can solve th=
em without needing expensive operations in the data path, one option woul=
d be to have a one time fixed size packet number jump for the new path so=
 the numbers don=E2=80=99t get interleaved with gaps.=20

There are at least two big shortcomings.

First, the proposal does not obscure the position of the packet number
field in the header. The field contains a number that increments with
every packet, and is thus easy to identify. This means that middle-boxes
will get accustomed to seeing that field and tracking its increments.
Hence, this simple obfuscation provides no protection against
ossification of the packet number field.

Second, the proposal does not protect against linkage, if several paths
are used simultaneously during a migration. Instead of progressing by
increments of 1, the PN will progress by increments that depends on the
number of packets sent on other paths. This allows for easy correlation
of these paths, despite the random increment.

In short, this simple obfuscation does not protect against ossification
and also does not prevent linkability.

-- Christian Huitema


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From: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
To: huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Packet number encryption
Thread-Topic: Packet number encryption
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From: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
Message-ID: <119b3276-5799-1cc3-8982-7479171bbf27@huitema.net>
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2018 21:19:27 -1000
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Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
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On 2/6/2018 8:55 PM, Praveen Balasubramanian wrote:
> First, the proposal does not obscure the position of the packet number field in the header. The field contains a number that increments with every packet, and is thus easy to identify. This means that middle-boxes will get accustomed to seeing that field and tracking its increments.
> Hence, this simple obfuscation provides no protection against ossification of the packet number field.
>
>>>> Well it seems like it is a requirement (see bullet 3 in Jana's list) to allow middleboxes to see sequencing information. By picking the initial random value middleboxes cannot assume any particular value. If packet number location and size is not part of invariants then it cannot be ossified, middleboxes will need to be resilient. 

This is why I would rather see the exposed bits copied at a fixed
location, while the PN itself cannot be located. That way, the exposed
bits can ossify, but the actual PN does not.

-- Christian Huitema

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    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/6/2018 8:55 PM, Praveen
      Balasubramanian wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CY4PR21MB01337C8A700E58B49D90B712B6FC0@CY4PR21MB0133.namprd21.prod.outlook.com">
      <pre wrap="">First, the proposal does not obscure the position of the packet number field in the header. The field contains a number that increments with every packet, and is thus easy to identify. This means that middle-boxes will get accustomed to seeing that field and tracking its increments.
Hence, this simple obfuscation provides no protection against ossification of the packet number field.

</pre>
      <blockquote type="cite" style="color: #000000;">
        <blockquote type="cite" style="color: #000000;">
          <blockquote type="cite" style="color: #000000;">
            <pre wrap="">Well it seems like it is a requirement (see bullet 3 in Jana's list) to allow middleboxes to see sequencing information. By picking the initial random value middleboxes cannot assume any particular value. If packet number location and size is not part of invariants then it cannot be ossified, middleboxes will need to be resilient. 
</pre>
          </blockquote>
        </blockquote>
      </blockquote>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    This is why I would rather see the exposed bits copied at a fixed
    location, while the PN itself cannot be located. That way, the
    exposed bits can ossify, but the actual PN does not.<br>
    <br>
    -- Christian Huitema<br>
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From: Marten Seemann <martenseemann@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2018 08:00:45 +0000
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Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
To: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
Cc: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>
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--94eb2c12585ae91f3605649ab1e1
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On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 3:20 PM Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
wrote:

>
>
> On 2/6/2018 8:55 PM, Praveen Balasubramanian wrote:
>
> First, the proposal does not obscure the position of the packet number fi=
eld in the header. The field contains a number that increments with every p=
acket, and is thus easy to identify. This means that middle-boxes will get =
accustomed to seeing that field and tracking its increments.
> Hence, this simple obfuscation provides no protection against ossificatio=
n of the packet number field.
>
>
> Well it seems like it is a requirement (see bullet 3 in Jana's list) to a=
llow middleboxes to see sequencing information. By picking the initial rand=
om value middleboxes cannot assume any particular value. If packet number l=
ocation and size is not part of invariants then it cannot be ossified, midd=
leboxes will need to be resilient.
>
>
> This is why I would rather see the exposed bits copied at a fixed
> location, while the PN itself cannot be located. That way, the exposed bi=
ts
> can ossify, but the actual PN does not.
>

We still need to be very careful here. If we decide to expose bits, we must
make sure that a middlebox can only extract coarse-grained information, if
we want to prevent middleboxes from buffering and delaying packets in order
to fix / reduce reordering.
At this point however, I'm not convinced that exposing any reordering
information to the network should be a requirement at all. There's a real
risk of misuse of this information, and of ossification of whatever bits we
expose.

--94eb2c12585ae91f3605649ab1e1
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Wed=
, Feb 7, 2018 at 3:20 PM Christian Huitema &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:huitema@hu=
itema.net">huitema@huitema.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding=
-left:1ex"><div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
    <p><br>
    </p>
    <br>
    <div class=3D"m_-1131360234497185821moz-cite-prefix">On 2/6/2018 8:55 P=
M, Praveen
      Balasubramanian wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
      <pre>First, the proposal does not obscure the position of the packet =
number field in the header. The field contains a number that increments wit=
h every packet, and is thus easy to identify. This means that middle-boxes =
will get accustomed to seeing that field and tracking its increments.
Hence, this simple obfuscation provides no protection against ossification =
of the packet number field.

</pre>
      <blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"color:#000000">
        <blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"color:#000000">
          <blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"color:#000000">
            <pre>Well it seems like it is a requirement (see bullet 3 in Ja=
na&#39;s list) to allow middleboxes to see sequencing information. By picki=
ng the initial random value middleboxes cannot assume any particular value.=
 If packet number location and size is not part of invariants then it canno=
t be ossified, middleboxes will need to be resilient.=20
</pre>
          </blockquote>
        </blockquote>
      </blockquote>
    </blockquote>
    <br></div><div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
    This is why I would rather see the exposed bits copied at a fixed
    location, while the PN itself cannot be located. That way, the
    exposed bits can ossify, but the actual PN does not.</div></blockquote>=
<div><br></div><div>We still need to be very careful here. If we decide to =
expose bits, we must make sure that a middlebox can only extract coarse-gra=
ined information, if we want to prevent middleboxes from buffering and dela=
ying packets in order to fix / reduce reordering.</div><div>At this point h=
owever, I&#39;m not convinced that exposing any reordering information to t=
he network should be a requirement at all. There&#39;s a real risk of misus=
e of this information, and of ossification of whatever bits we expose.</div=
></div></div>

--94eb2c12585ae91f3605649ab1e1--


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A new interim meeting request has just been submitted by Lars Eggert.

This request requires approval by the Transport Area Area Director

The meeting can be approved here: 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim/request/interim-2018-quic-02



---------------------------------------------------------
Working Group Name: QUIC
Area Name: Transport Area
Session Requester: Lars Eggert

City: Kista
Country: SE


Session 1:

Date: 2018-06-06
Start Time: 09:00 Europe/Berlin
Duration: 08:00
Remote Participation Information: https://github.com/quicwg/wg-materials/blob/master/interim-18-06/arrangements.md
Agenda Note: Preceded by non-IETF QUIC interop event on June 4-5, same location
Session 2:

Date: 2018-06-07
Start Time: 09:00 Europe/Berlin
Duration: 08:00
Remote Participation Information: https://github.com/quicwg/wg-materials/blob/master/interim-18-06/arrangements.md
Agenda Note: Preceded by non-IETF QUIC interop event on June 4-5, same location

---------------------------------------------------------


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Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
To: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, Marten Seemann <martenseemann@gmail.com>
Cc: "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
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--001a114fd4c8e21c0705649b3823
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> This is why I would rather see the exposed bits copied at a fixed
> location, while the PN itself cannot be located. That way, the exposed bits
> can ossify, but the actual PN does not.
>

We still need to be very careful here. If we decide to expose bits, we must
make sure that a middlebox can only extract coarse-grained information, if
we want to prevent middleboxes from buffering and delaying packets in order
to fix / reduce reordering.
At this point however, I'm not convinced that exposing any reordering
information to the network should be a requirement at all. There's a real
risk of misuse of this information, and of ossification of whatever bits we
expose.

I am fairly convinced that you can and should separate exposure to
middleware from packet numbers in whatever form precisely because we want
packet numbers to not rely on path and because packet numbers may expose
false loss if exposed directly in whatever form.

A path specific counter can be done be exposing a few bits of an internal
path specific counter that is entirely independent of packet numbering used
for AEAD IV and is also independent of any artificial packet number
skipping for ACK attack mitigation etc.. It could also be done be emitting
a known 1-bit signal whose pattern can be used to identify deviance from
that pattern, as discussed in separate thread, e.g. a square wave or a
public pseudo-random sequence.

The next, and separate question is then, do we want to expose anything even
if it only leaks information about loss and reordering on a single path? It
could lead to unwanted latency due to middleware packet sorting. It is a
very good point, but the concern might be based on a historical case that
does not apply to current UDP or future QUIC transports. However, if
ordering is exposed as a pseudo-random 1-bit signal such as the Pi
sequence, then middleware would have to work very harder than it would find
worthwhile to sort packets back in order.

--001a114fd4c8e21c0705649b3823
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq" style=3D"font-family:Helvet=
ica,Arial;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-we=
ight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tra=
nsform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span><div><div><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;=
border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div text=3D"#000000" =
bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">This is why I w=
ould rather see the exposed bits copied at a fixed location, while the PN i=
tself cannot be located. That way, the exposed bits can ossify, but the act=
ual PN does not.</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>We still need to be =
very careful here. If we decide to expose bits, we must make sure that a mi=
ddlebox can only extract coarse-grained information, if we want to prevent =
middleboxes from buffering and delaying packets in order to fix / reduce re=
ordering.</div><div>At this point however, I&#39;m not convinced that expos=
ing any reordering information to the network should be a requirement at al=
l. There&#39;s a real risk of misuse of this information, and of ossificati=
on of whatever bits we expose.</div></div></div></div></div></span></blockq=
uote></div><p>I am fairly convinced that you can and should separate exposu=
re to middleware from packet numbers in whatever form precisely because we =
want packet numbers to not rely on path and because packet numbers may expo=
se false loss if exposed directly in whatever form.</p><p>A path specific c=
ounter can be done be exposing a few bits of an internal path specific coun=
ter that is entirely independent of packet numbering used for AEAD IV and i=
s also independent of any artificial packet number skipping for ACK attack =
mitigation etc.. It could also be done be emitting a known 1-bit signal who=
se pattern can be used to identify deviance from that pattern, as discussed=
 in separate thread, e.g. a square wave or a public pseudo-random sequence.=
</p><p>The next, and separate question is then, do we want to expose anythi=
ng even if it only leaks information about loss and reordering on a single =
path? It could lead to unwanted latency due to middleware packet sorting. I=
t is a very good point, but the concern might be based on a historical case=
 that does not apply to current UDP or future QUIC transports. However, if =
ordering is exposed as a pseudo-random 1-bit signal such as the Pi sequence=
, then middleware would have to work very harder than it would find worthwh=
ile to sort packets back in order.</p><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=
=3D"clean_bq" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;font-styl=
e:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;=
text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;wor=
d-spacing:0px"><span><div><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
</div></div></div></div></span></blockquote></div></body></html>

--001a114fd4c8e21c0705649b3823--


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Subject: Re: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image (was Re: Packet number encryption)
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Instead of a static Pi table, an xorshift+ PRNG could be used. It would
likely be preferable to shorten the cycle such that observers can use hash
lookups and hamming distance computations against selected segments of the
sequence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xorshift#xorshift+

http://xoroshiro.di.unimi.it/xorshift128plus.c

uint64_t s[2];

uint64_t next(void) {
	uint64_t s1 =3D s[0];
	const uint64_t s0 =3D s[1];
	const uint64_t result =3D s0 + s1;
	s[0] =3D s0;
	s1 ^=3D s1 << 23; // a
	s[1] =3D s1 ^ s0 ^ (s1 >> 18) ^ (s0 >> 5); // b, c
	return result;
}


A simpler 32-bit version could also be used since we do not care about
long cycles.

http://excamera.com/sphinx/article-xorshift.html

uint32_t seed =3D 7;  // 100% random seed value

static uint32_t random()
{
  seed ^=3D seed << 13;
  seed ^=3D seed >> 17;
  seed ^=3D seed << 5;
  return seed;
}


The output would be the bits shifted out of the 32-bit our 64-bit word in
either MSB or LSB first. I=E2=80=99d prefer LSB because it is slightly simp=
ler to
test the LSB bit and divide by 2.

On 7 February 2018 at 01.29.18, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen (mikkelfj=
@gmail.com)
wrote:

Also note that this approach is insensitive to skipped packet numbers in
optimistic ACK attack defence. It leaks zero information when the network
is perfect and if the CID hash is random.

------------------------------
*From:* Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen <mikkelfj@gmail.com>
*Sent:* Wednesday, February 7, 2018 12:58:33 AM
*To:* Kazuho Oku
*Cc:* Brian Trammell (IETF); QUIC WG
*Subject:* Re: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image (was Re:
Packet number encryption)

I actually think a static 1KB table of Pi could work quite well.

A subset of samples could be indexed in a hashtable and yield loss data
early with some probability. Some samples would miss due to reordering or
loss. If more exact analysis is wanted the levenshtein distance of a sample
sequence against Pi from a synced offset would tell a lot about the data.
Or DNA sequencing. This could be hardware optimized.

Yet, transmission is always just the next bit in the Pi table.

Since Pi is effectively random it will ebentually detect mutations if the
observed sequence is long enough.

Wrt privacy, the CID may be used as a start offset hash into the Pi table.

There isn=E2=80=99t any need to cover a full RTT worth of Pi bits unless it=
 is used
for latency detection, but in that case the spin could be a pattern like
10101010 and 00001111 injected into the Pi sequence. A separate spin bit
would be simpler.


------------------------------
*From:* Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>
*Sent:* Tuesday, February 6, 2018 5:22:35 PM
*To:* Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen
*Cc:* Brian Trammell (IETF); QUIC WG
*Subject:* Re: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image (was Re:
Packet number encryption)

2018-02-06 23:54 GMT+09:00 Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen <mikkelfj@gmai=
l.com>:
> This idea can be taken further: You can modulate the signal so you use
> multiple packets to encode a zero or a one for half the wave duration. Fo=
r
> example 1 could be encoded as 0101 over four packets and zero could be
> encoded as 0011 over four packets.
> If there is any reordering, it would show up as an unexpected value in th=
e
> pulse.

That's definitely an option.

Actually, I considered using sin wave (that distributes the error
among 1-bit samples) as an example instead of the square wave.

The primary reason behind my preference to using a square wave is that
it is easier to implement; in fact, emitting a square wave with the
length of 512 packets is as easy as just taking the 9th bit (counting
from LSB) of the packet number (if we forget about the gaps for a
moment).


--
Kazuho Oku

--94eb2c0496523528e605649ba96d
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">Instead of a static =
Pi table, an xorshift+ PRNG could be used. It would likely be preferable to=
 shorten the cycle such that observers can use hash lookups and hamming dis=
tance computations against selected segments of the sequence.</div><div id=
=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;c=
olor:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloo=
p_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgb=
a(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><a href=3D"https://en.wikipedia.o=
rg/wiki/Xorshift#xorshift+">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xorshift#xorshift=
+</a></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Aria=
l;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></d=
iv><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-s=
ize:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><a href=3D"http=
://xoroshiro.di.unimi.it/xorshift128plus.c">http://xoroshiro.di.unimi.it/xo=
rshift128plus.c</a></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:=
Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height=
:auto"><pre style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;white-space:pre-wrap">uint64_t s[=
2];

uint64_t next(void) {
	uint64_t s1 =3D s[0];
	const uint64_t s0 =3D s[1];
	const uint64_t result =3D s0 + s1;
	s[0] =3D s0;
	s1 ^=3D s1 &lt;&lt; 23; // a
	s[1] =3D s1 ^ s0 ^ (s1 &gt;&gt; 18) ^ (s0 &gt;&gt; 5); // b, c
	return result; =20
}</pre><pre style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;white-space:pre-wrap"><span style=
=3D"font-family:helvetica,arial"><br></span></pre><pre style=3D"word-wrap:b=
reak-word;white-space:pre-wrap"><span style=3D"font-family:helvetica,arial"=
>A simpler 32-bit version could also be used since we do not care about lon=
g cycles.</span></pre></div><div id=3D"bloop_sign_1517993871273355008" clas=
s=3D"bloop_sign"><div style=3D"font-family:helvetica,arial;font-size:13px">=
<a href=3D"http://excamera.com/sphinx/article-xorshift.html">http://excamer=
a.com/sphinx/article-xorshift.html</a></div><div style=3D"font-family:helve=
tica,arial;font-size:13px"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:helvetica,ar=
ial;font-size:13px"><div>uint32_t seed =3D 7; =C2=A0// 100% random seed val=
ue</div><div><br></div><div>static uint32_t random()</div><div>{</div><div>=
=C2=A0 seed ^=3D seed &lt;&lt; 13;</div><div>=C2=A0 seed ^=3D seed &gt;&gt;=
 17;</div><div>=C2=A0 seed ^=3D seed &lt;&lt; 5;</div><div>=C2=A0 return se=
ed;</div><div>}</div></div></div> <div><br></div><div><br></div>The output =
would be the bits shifted out of the 32-bit our 64-bit word in either MSB o=
r LSB first. I=E2=80=99d prefer LSB because it is slightly simpler to test =
the LSB bit and divide by 2.<div><br><p class=3D"airmail_on">On 7 February =
2018 at 01.29.18, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen (<a href=3D"mailto:mikk=
elfj@gmail.com">mikkelfj@gmail.com</a>) wrote:</p> <blockquote type=3D"cite=
" class=3D"clean_bq"><span><div><div></div><div>






<title></title>


<div id=3D"compose-container" itemscope=3D"itemscope" itemtype=3D"https://s=
chema.org/EmailMessage" style=3D"direction:ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"direction:ltr">Also note that this approach is
insensitive to skipped packet numbers in optimistic ACK attack
defence. It leaks zero information when the network is perfect and
if the CID hash is random.</div>
</div>
<div><br></div>
<div class=3D"acompli_signature"></div>
</div>
</div>
<hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" co=
lor=3D"#000000" style=3D"font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e
J=C3=B8rgensen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com">mikkelfj@gmail.com=
</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, February 7, 2018 12:58:33 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Kazuho Oku<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Brian Trammell (IETF); QUIC WG<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image
(was Re: Packet number encryption)</font>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div id=3D"x_compose-container" itemscope=3D"itemscope" itemtype=3D"https:/=
/schema.org/EmailMessage" style=3D"direction:ltr">
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"direction:ltr">I actually think a static 1KB table of
Pi could work quite well.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div style=3D"direction:ltr">A subset of samples could be indexed in
a hashtable and yield loss data early with some probability. Some
samples would miss due to reordering or loss. If more exact
analysis is wanted the levenshtein distance of a sample sequence
against Pi from a synced offset would tell a lot about the data. Or
DNA sequencing. This could be hardware optimized.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div style=3D"direction:ltr">Yet, transmission is always just the
next bit in the Pi table.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div style=3D"direction:ltr">Since Pi is effectively random it will
ebentually detect mutations if the observed sequence is long
enough.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div style=3D"direction:ltr">Wrt privacy, the CID may be used as a
start offset hash into the Pi table.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div style=3D"direction:ltr">There isn=E2=80=99t any need to cover a full R=
TT
worth of Pi bits unless it is used for latency detection, but in
that case the spin could be a pattern like 10101010 and 00001111
injected into the Pi sequence. A separate spin bit would be
simpler.</div>
<div><br></div>
</div>
<div><br></div>
<div class=3D"x_acompli_signature"></div>
</div>
</div>
<hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%">
<div id=3D"x_divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" =
color=3D"#000000" style=3D"font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> Kazuho Oku
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kazuhooku@gmail.com">kazuhooku@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 6, 2018 5:22:35 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Brian Trammell (IETF); QUIC WG<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image
(was Re: Packet number encryption)</font>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"PlainText"><font size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt">20=
18-02-06 23:54 GMT+09:00 Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com">mikkelfj@gmail.com</a>&gt;:<br>
&gt; This idea can be taken further: You can modulate the signal so
you use<br>
&gt; multiple packets to encode a zero or a one for half the wave
duration. For<br>
&gt; example 1 could be encoded as 0101 over four packets and zero
could be<br>
&gt; encoded as 0011 over four packets.<br>
&gt; If there is any reordering, it would show up as an unexpected
value in the<br>
&gt; pulse.<br>
<br>
That&#39;s definitely an option.<br>
<br>
Actually, I considered using sin wave (that distributes the
error<br>
among 1-bit samples) as an example instead of the square
wave.<br>
<br>
The primary reason behind my preference to using a square wave is
that<br>
it is easier to implement; in fact, emitting a square wave with
the<br>
length of 512 packets is as easy as just taking the 9th bit
(counting<br>
from LSB) of the packet number (if we forget about the gaps for
a<br>
moment).<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
Kazuho Oku<br></span></font></div>
</div>


</div></div></span></blockquote></div></body></html>

--94eb2c0496523528e605649ba96d--


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Subject: Re: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image (was Re: Packet number encryption)
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I looked into these when I first considered packet number encryption.
They are not typically bijective on 2^N-1.  That's not a great outcome
here.  Also, random access is a requirement and that isn't
straightforward here, even with the good ones.  Also reversing is
possible, but more complicated.

On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 8:10 PM, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen
<mikkelfj@gmail.com> wrote:
> Instead of a static Pi table, an xorshift+ PRNG could be used. It would
> likely be preferable to shorten the cycle such that observers can use has=
h
> lookups and hamming distance computations against selected segments of th=
e
> sequence.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xorshift#xorshift+
>
> http://xoroshiro.di.unimi.it/xorshift128plus.c
>
> uint64_t s[2];
>
> uint64_t next(void) {
> 	uint64_t s1 =3D s[0];
> 	const uint64_t s0 =3D s[1];
> 	const uint64_t result =3D s0 + s1;
> 	s[0] =3D s0;
> 	s1 ^=3D s1 << 23; // a
> 	s[1] =3D s1 ^ s0 ^ (s1 >> 18) ^ (s0 >> 5); // b, c
> 	return result;
> }
>
>
> A simpler 32-bit version could also be used since we do not care about lo=
ng
> cycles.
>
> http://excamera.com/sphinx/article-xorshift.html
>
> uint32_t seed =3D 7;  // 100% random seed value
>
> static uint32_t random()
> {
>   seed ^=3D seed << 13;
>   seed ^=3D seed >> 17;
>   seed ^=3D seed << 5;
>   return seed;
> }
>
>
> The output would be the bits shifted out of the 32-bit our 64-bit word in
> either MSB or LSB first. I=E2=80=99d prefer LSB because it is slightly si=
mpler to
> test the LSB bit and divide by 2.
>
> On 7 February 2018 at 01.29.18, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen (mikkel=
fj@gmail.com)
> wrote:
>
> Also note that this approach is insensitive to skipped packet numbers in
> optimistic ACK attack defence. It leaks zero information when the network=
 is
> perfect and if the CID hash is random.
>
> ________________________________
> From: Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen <mikkelfj@gmail.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 7, 2018 12:58:33 AM
> To: Kazuho Oku
> Cc: Brian Trammell (IETF); QUIC WG
> Subject: Re: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image (was Re: Packe=
t
> number encryption)
>
> I actually think a static 1KB table of Pi could work quite well.
>
> A subset of samples could be indexed in a hashtable and yield loss data
> early with some probability. Some samples would miss due to reordering or
> loss. If more exact analysis is wanted the levenshtein distance of a samp=
le
> sequence against Pi from a synced offset would tell a lot about the data.=
 Or
> DNA sequencing. This could be hardware optimized.
>
> Yet, transmission is always just the next bit in the Pi table.
>
> Since Pi is effectively random it will ebentually detect mutations if the
> observed sequence is long enough.
>
> Wrt privacy, the CID may be used as a start offset hash into the Pi table=
.
>
> There isn=E2=80=99t any need to cover a full RTT worth of Pi bits unless =
it is used
> for latency detection, but in that case the spin could be a pattern like
> 10101010 and 00001111 injected into the Pi sequence. A separate spin bit
> would be simpler.
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 6, 2018 5:22:35 PM
> To: Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen
> Cc: Brian Trammell (IETF); QUIC WG
> Subject: Re: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image (was Re: Packe=
t
> number encryption)
>
> 2018-02-06 23:54 GMT+09:00 Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen <mikkelfj@gm=
ail.com>:
>> This idea can be taken further: You can modulate the signal so you use
>> multiple packets to encode a zero or a one for half the wave duration. F=
or
>> example 1 could be encoded as 0101 over four packets and zero could be
>> encoded as 0011 over four packets.
>> If there is any reordering, it would show up as an unexpected value in t=
he
>> pulse.
>
> That's definitely an option.
>
> Actually, I considered using sin wave (that distributes the error
> among 1-bit samples) as an example instead of the square wave.
>
> The primary reason behind my preference to using a square wave is that
> it is easier to implement; in fact, emitting a square wave with the
> length of 512 packets is as easy as just taking the 9th bit (counting
> from LSB) of the packet number (if we forget about the gaps for a
> moment).
>
>
> --
> Kazuho Oku


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Subject: Re: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image (was Re: Packet number encryption)
To: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
Cc: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, "Brian Trammell (IETF)" <ietf@trammell.ch>, Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>
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--f403045d914c63042c05649cb174
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

On 7 February 2018 at 11.10.21, Martin Thomson (martin.thomson@gmail.com)
wrote:

I looked into these when I first considered packet number encryption.

Hi Martin, I think you might be misreading the intention behind this
sequence.

The idea is to generate 1 bit for every packet sent on a specific path, in
the order the packet was sent, not to encode packet numbers directly. The
encoding of packet numbers is a separate thing whether encrypted or
otherwise.

When an observer collects these bits into words from several packets, it is
possible to compare the gathered string with the expected sequence.

The random access is only needed for analytical purposes to know about
packet loss in the network, not to operate the QUIC transport as such. If
the sequence is fixed and repeats with reasonable cycle length, it can be
done efficiently in hardware.

It is true that if you sample, say 32 bits, the mapping is not bijective so
if you match the sequence, it is ambiguous. But since you already know what
to expect next and you can choose the sample length as long as you want,
say 128 bits, you do get very good information about where loss and
reordering happened. If the sequence was not random, you would not have
this property.

As to reverse engineering, packets are already sent in order, so learning
what the original order was, is hardly a significant compromise, except if
you have multiple connections on the same tuple without transmitting an
observable connection ID.

--f403045d914c63042c05649cb174
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><p class=
=3D"airmail_on">On 7 February 2018 at 11.10.21, Martin Thomson (<a href=3D"=
mailto:martin.thomson@gmail.com">martin.thomson@gmail.com</a>) wrote:</p> <=
div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq" style=3D"font-family:Helve=
tica,Arial;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-w=
eight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tr=
ansform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span><div><div></div><di=
v>I looked into these when I first considered packet number encryption.<spa=
n class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></div></div></span></blockqu=
ote></div><p>Hi Martin, I think you might be misreading the intention behin=
d this sequence.</p><p>The idea is to generate 1 bit for every packet sent =
on a specific path, in the order the packet was sent, not to encode packet =
numbers directly. The encoding of packet numbers is a separate thing whethe=
r encrypted or otherwise.</p><p>When an observer collects these bits into w=
ords from several packets, it is possible to compare the gathered string wi=
th the expected sequence.</p><p>The random access is only needed for analyt=
ical purposes to know about packet loss in the network, not to operate the =
QUIC transport as such. If the sequence is fixed and repeats with reasonabl=
e cycle length, it can be done efficiently in hardware.</p><p>It is true th=
at if you sample, say 32 bits, the mapping is not bijective so if you match=
 the sequence, it is ambiguous. But since you already know what to expect n=
ext and you can choose the sample length as long as you want, say 128 bits,=
 you do get very good information about where loss and reordering happened.=
 If the sequence was not random, you would not have this property.</p><p>As=
 to reverse engineering, packets are already sent in order, so learning wha=
t the original order was, is hardly a significant compromise, except if you=
 have multiple connections on the same tuple without transmitting an observ=
able connection ID.</p><p><br></p></body></html>

--f403045d914c63042c05649cb174--


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From: Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 20:10:02 +0900
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Subject: Re: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image (was Re: Packet number encryption)
To: =?UTF-8?Q?Mikkel_Fahn=C3=B8e_J=C3=B8rgensen?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>
Cc: "Brian Trammell (IETF)" <ietf@trammell.ch>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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2018-02-07 18:10 GMT+09:00 Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen <mikkelfj@gmai=
l.com>:
> Instead of a static Pi table, an xorshift+ PRNG could be used. It would
> likely be preferable to shorten the cycle such that observers can use has=
h
> lookups and hamming distance computations against selected segments of th=
e
> sequence.

The pros of using a sequence that randomly distributes 0 and ones
(i.e. PI or xorshift+) is that you can extract good loss / reordering
information if the error rate is low.

OTOH, it is fragile to high error rate or certain patterns of error.
Let me explain two examples.

Consider the case where the packet loss rate is 50%. I doubt if you
could use pattern matching against those sequences to figure out the
loss rate. This is because the power among the sequence is mostly high
frequencies. If you use a sequence that distributes power among lower
frequencies (like square wave or sin wave that I discussed), you can
calculate the loss rate in such cases as well.

Consider another case where the sender uses multiple queues to emit
packets belonging to a single QUIC connection (BTW, I plan to
implement such one). You would see non-neglible amount of reorders. On
the wire, it will look like if two adjacent packets packets were
swapped; it wouldn't have any practical impact on performance. But
such frequent reordering will destroy the observability of a random
sequence.

To summarize, I think that we need a low frequency signal. It could
either be a square wave or sin wave. Using a sin wave might be better
here, since you the bit pattern (which flips a lot) to observe at a
higher precision when the the error rates of loss and reorder are both
low.

>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xorshift#xorshift+
>
> http://xoroshiro.di.unimi.it/xorshift128plus.c
>
> uint64_t s[2];
>
> uint64_t next(void) {
> uint64_t s1 =3D s[0];
> const uint64_t s0 =3D s[1];
> const uint64_t result =3D s0 + s1;
> s[0] =3D s0;
> s1 ^=3D s1 << 23; // a
> s[1] =3D s1 ^ s0 ^ (s1 >> 18) ^ (s0 >> 5); // b, c
> return result;
> }
>
>
> A simpler 32-bit version could also be used since we do not care about lo=
ng
> cycles.
>
> http://excamera.com/sphinx/article-xorshift.html
>
> uint32_t seed =3D 7;  // 100% random seed value
>
> static uint32_t random()
> {
>   seed ^=3D seed << 13;
>   seed ^=3D seed >> 17;
>   seed ^=3D seed << 5;
>   return seed;
> }
>
>
> The output would be the bits shifted out of the 32-bit our 64-bit word in
> either MSB or LSB first. I=E2=80=99d prefer LSB because it is slightly si=
mpler to
> test the LSB bit and divide by 2.
>
> On 7 February 2018 at 01.29.18, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen (mikkel=
fj@gmail.com)
> wrote:
>
> Also note that this approach is insensitive to skipped packet numbers in
> optimistic ACK attack defence. It leaks zero information when the network=
 is
> perfect and if the CID hash is random.
>
> ________________________________
> From: Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen <mikkelfj@gmail.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 7, 2018 12:58:33 AM
> To: Kazuho Oku
> Cc: Brian Trammell (IETF); QUIC WG
> Subject: Re: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image (was Re: Packe=
t
> number encryption)
>
> I actually think a static 1KB table of Pi could work quite well.
>
> A subset of samples could be indexed in a hashtable and yield loss data
> early with some probability. Some samples would miss due to reordering or
> loss. If more exact analysis is wanted the levenshtein distance of a samp=
le
> sequence against Pi from a synced offset would tell a lot about the data.=
 Or
> DNA sequencing. This could be hardware optimized.
>
> Yet, transmission is always just the next bit in the Pi table.
>
> Since Pi is effectively random it will ebentually detect mutations if the
> observed sequence is long enough.
>
> Wrt privacy, the CID may be used as a start offset hash into the Pi table=
.
>
> There isn=E2=80=99t any need to cover a full RTT worth of Pi bits unless =
it is used
> for latency detection, but in that case the spin could be a pattern like
> 10101010 and 00001111 injected into the Pi sequence. A separate spin bit
> would be simpler.
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 6, 2018 5:22:35 PM
> To: Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen
> Cc: Brian Trammell (IETF); QUIC WG
> Subject: Re: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image (was Re: Packe=
t
> number encryption)
>
> 2018-02-06 23:54 GMT+09:00 Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen <mikkelfj@gm=
ail.com>:
>> This idea can be taken further: You can modulate the signal so you use
>> multiple packets to encode a zero or a one for half the wave duration. F=
or
>> example 1 could be encoded as 0101 over four packets and zero could be
>> encoded as 0011 over four packets.
>> If there is any reordering, it would show up as an unexpected value in t=
he
>> pulse.
>
> That's definitely an option.
>
> Actually, I considered using sin wave (that distributes the error
> among 1-bit samples) as an example instead of the square wave.
>
> The primary reason behind my preference to using a square wave is that
> it is easier to implement; in fact, emitting a square wave with the
> length of 512 packets is as easy as just taking the 9th bit (counting
> from LSB) of the packet number (if we forget about the gaps for a
> moment).
>
>
> --
> Kazuho Oku



--=20
Kazuho Oku


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Subject: Re: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image (was Re: Packet number encryption)
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--001a114a9d82cb450305649d926c
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comment inline

On 7 February 2018 at 12.10.06, Kazuho Oku (kazuhooku@gmail.com) wrote:


To summarize, I think that we need a low frequency signal. It could
either be a square wave or sin wave. Using a sin wave might be better
here, since you the bit pattern (which flips a lot) to observe at a
higher precision when the the error rates of loss and reorder are both
low.



This is a good point. However, you could average the random signal over
multiple bits to get a lower frequency signal which will give you signature
markers even when some segments are lost. A sine is the ultimate low
frequency filter.

There might be a middle ground where you overlay a low frequency signal
into the random sequence.

--001a114a9d82cb450305649d926c
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">comment inline</div>=
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=
=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;c=
olor:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">On 7 February 2018 at 12.=
10.06, Kazuho Oku (<a href=3D"mailto:kazuhooku@gmail.com">kazuhooku@gmail.c=
om</a>) wrote:</div> <div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq" styl=
e=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-vari=
ant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><sp=
an><div><div></div><div><br>To summarize, I think that we need a low freque=
ncy signal. It could<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><br>=
either be a square wave or sin wave. Using a sin wave might be better<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><br>here, since you the bit pa=
ttern (which flips a lot) to observe at a<span class=3D"Apple-converted-spa=
ce">=C2=A0</span><br>higher precision when the the error rates of loss and =
reorder are both<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><br>low.=
=C2=A0</div></div></span></blockquote></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=
=3D"clean_bq"><span><div><div><br></div></div></span></blockquote><div><br>=
</div>This is a good point. However, you could average the random signal ov=
er multiple bits to get a lower frequency signal which will give you signat=
ure markers even when some segments are lost. A sine is the ultimate low fr=
equency filter.<div><br></div><div>There might be a middle ground where you=
 overlay a low frequency signal into the random sequence.</div></body></htm=
l>

--001a114a9d82cb450305649d926c--


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To: Marten Seemann <martenseemann@gmail.com>
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Hi,

see below.

> Am 07.02.2018 um 09:00 schrieb Marten Seemann =
<martenseemann@gmail.com>:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 3:20 PM Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net> =
wrote:
>=20
>=20
> On 2/6/2018 8:55 PM, Praveen Balasubramanian wrote:
>> First, the proposal does not obscure the position of the packet =
number field in the header. The field contains a number that increments =
with every packet, and is thus easy to identify. This means that =
middle-boxes will get accustomed to seeing that field and tracking its =
increments.
>> Hence, this simple obfuscation provides no protection against =
ossification of the packet number field.
>>=20
>>=20
>>>>> Well it seems like it is a requirement (see bullet 3 in Jana's =
list) to allow middleboxes to see sequencing information. By picking the =
initial random value middleboxes cannot assume any particular value. If =
packet number location and size is not part of invariants then it cannot =
be ossified, middleboxes will need to be resilient.=20
>>>>>=20
>=20
> This is why I would rather see the exposed bits copied at a fixed =
location, while the PN itself cannot be located. That way, the exposed =
bits can ossify, but the actual PN does not.
>=20
> We still need to be very careful here. If we decide to expose bits, we =
must make sure that a middlebox can only extract coarse-grained =
information, if we want to prevent middleboxes from buffering and =
delaying packets in order to fix / reduce reordering.

This may be done by the network anyway. We were working on a multipath =
bandwidth bonding approach for UDP-based traffic and had to add a slim =
tunnel header with a sequence number for reordering. As we didn=E2=80=99t =
want look any deeper in the packet and see if we can find any hints if =
the traffic is reorder-sensitive or not, we had to work on the =
conservative assumption that we should avoid reordering to avoid =
unwanted negative impacts as this is the assumption some protocols make =
today based on what we typically can obverse today.

If we want to say that quic traffic should not be reordered in such =
situations, we would need an easy way to distinguish quic from other ups =
traffic, or even provide an explicit signal (but that=E2=80=99s a =
different topic).

> At this point however, I'm not convinced that exposing any reordering =
information to the network should be a requirement at all. There's a =
real risk of misuse of this information, and of ossification of whatever =
bits we expose.


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Subject: Re: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image (was Re: Packet number encryption)
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--001a113520ee19385d05649e57b6
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Hmm a periodic truly white noise random signal ought to have an evenly
distributed power spectrum meaning it contains all frequencies up to half
its cycle length. At least there is a lot of solid communications theory on
random signals that could be applied, e.g.

https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electrical-engineering-and-computer-science/6-011-introduction-to-communication-control-and-signal-processing-spring-2010/readings/MIT6_011S10_chap09.pdf

http://bme.elektro.dtu.dk/31610/notes/chap_8.pdf

Thus limiting the signal to a square or a sine is effectively wasting a lot
of bandwidth, even if naive hash based signal processing is insufficient to
deal with a proper random signal. Of course there is the argument of
simplicity, but long term I believe more information in the signal is more
valuable.

--001a113520ee19385d05649e57b6
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">Hmm a periodic truly=
 white noise random signal ought to have an evenly distributed power spectr=
um meaning it contains all frequencies up to half its cycle length. At leas=
t there is a lot of solid communications theory on random signals that coul=
d be applied, e.g.=C2=A0</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-fa=
mily:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-h=
eight:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Hel=
vetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:au=
to"><a href=3D"https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electrical-engineering-and-compu=
ter-science/6-011-introduction-to-communication-control-and-signal-processi=
ng-spring-2010/readings/MIT6_011S10_chap09.pdf">https://ocw.mit.edu/courses=
/electrical-engineering-and-computer-science/6-011-introduction-to-communic=
ation-control-and-signal-processing-spring-2010/readings/MIT6_011S10_chap09=
.pdf</a></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,A=
rial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br>=
</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;fon=
t-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><a href=3D"h=
ttp://bme.elektro.dtu.dk/31610/notes/chap_8.pdf">http://bme.elektro.dtu.dk/=
31610/notes/chap_8.pdf</a></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-=
family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line=
-height:auto"><br></div> Thus limiting the signal to a square or a sine is =
effectively wasting a lot of bandwidth, even if naive hash based signal pro=
cessing is insufficient to deal with a proper random signal. Of course ther=
e is the argument of simplicity, but long term I believe more information i=
n the signal is more valuable.<div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"c=
lean_bq"><span><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-sp=
ace"><div>


</div></div></span></blockquote></div></body></html>

--001a113520ee19385d05649e57b6--


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From: Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 21:52:14 +0900
Message-ID: <CANatvzyvka=H7rGK849XroHABArvBmSDts9wEArq2=o+_873Ug@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image (was Re: Packet number encryption)
To: =?UTF-8?Q?Mikkel_Fahn=C3=B8e_J=C3=B8rgensen?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>
Cc: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>,  "Brian Trammell (IETF)" <ietf@trammell.ch>
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2018-02-07 19:23 GMT+09:00 Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen <mikkelfj@gmai=
l.com>:
>
> On 7 February 2018 at 11.10.21, Martin Thomson (martin.thomson@gmail.com)
> wrote:
>
> I looked into these when I first considered packet number encryption.
>
> Hi Martin, I think you might be misreading the intention behind this
> sequence.
>
> The idea is to generate 1 bit for every packet sent on a specific path, i=
n
> the order the packet was sent, not to encode packet numbers directly.

What Mikkel says.

Or put it another way, below is a short summary of the approaches
being proposed:

* encode couple of least significant bits of the per-path sequence
number ("a small-modulo sequence number") [1]
* encode one bit in the middle of the per-path sequence number [2]

When observing that one bit of [2] spanning across multiple packets
belonging to a particular path, it looks like a square wave. There
came out variations of the approach.

* use sin wave instead of square wave [3]
* use bitsteram of PI instead of square wave [4][5]
* use bitstream of xorshift+ instead of square wave [6]

I would argue that the approaches discussed in [2] to [6] are superior
to [1] due to the fact that they use less bits, expose less
information, while possibly given us reasonable observation of loss
and reorder rate.

[1] https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/quic/current/msg03030.html
[2] https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/quic/current/msg03146.html
[3] https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/quic/current/msg03146.html
[4] https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/quic/current/msg03156.html
[5] https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/quic/current/msg03171.html
[6] https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/quic/current/msg03186.html

> The
> encoding of packet numbers is a separate thing whether encrypted or
> otherwise.
>
> When an observer collects these bits into words from several packets, it =
is
> possible to compare the gathered string with the expected sequence.
>
> The random access is only needed for analytical purposes to know about
> packet loss in the network, not to operate the QUIC transport as such. If
> the sequence is fixed and repeats with reasonable cycle length, it can be
> done efficiently in hardware.
>
> It is true that if you sample, say 32 bits, the mapping is not bijective =
so
> if you match the sequence, it is ambiguous. But since you already know wh=
at
> to expect next and you can choose the sample length as long as you want, =
say
> 128 bits, you do get very good information about where loss and reorderin=
g
> happened. If the sequence was not random, you would not have this propert=
y.
>
> As to reverse engineering, packets are already sent in order, so learning
> what the original order was, is hardly a significant compromise, except i=
f
> you have multiple connections on the same tuple without transmitting an
> observable connection ID.
>
>



--=20
Kazuho Oku


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From: Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 22:13:26 +0900
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Subject: Re: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image (was Re: Packet number encryption)
To: =?UTF-8?Q?Mikkel_Fahn=C3=B8e_J=C3=B8rgensen?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>
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2018-02-07 21:21 GMT+09:00 Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen <mikkelfj@gmai=
l.com>:
> Hmm a periodic truly white noise random signal ought to have an evenly
> distributed power spectrum meaning it contains all frequencies up to half
> its cycle length. At least there is a lot of solid communications theory =
on
> random signals that could be applied, e.g.
>
> https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/electrical-engineering-and-computer-science/6=
-011-introduction-to-communication-control-and-signal-processing-spring-201=
0/readings/MIT6_011S10_chap09.pdf
>
> http://bme.elektro.dtu.dk/31610/notes/chap_8.pdf
>
> Thus limiting the signal to a square or a sine is effectively wasting a l=
ot
> of bandwidth, even if naive hash based signal processing is insufficient =
to
> deal with a proper random signal.

I mostly disagree.

The reason I am suggesting to use square or sin wave is because it has
a base frequency (i.e. wavelength) that can be used to calculate the
loss rate.

White noise does not have a "base frequency." Therefore, it becomes
harder to observe the metrics when the loss / reorder rate becomes
high.

Going back to the discussion of the approaches, I am not against
mixing in some random signals so that pattern matching can be applied
when the error rate is low. But such "mix" should be mild enough that
it would not disturb the observation of the base frequency under high
error rate.

And in fact, you do not even need to mix randomly flipping bits if you
select a sin wave, since a sin wave quantized to 1-bit will contain
many flipping bits. You can use those bits for pattern matching. OTOH,
if we select square wave, it might make sense to apply some bit
flipping so that we can apply pattern matching. There are other
possibilities as well.

However, with that said, I believe that the design decisions need to
depend on the actual use-case. What are the loss rates that we need to
work on? What are the reorder patterns that we would observe? IMO this
is the tricky part of the 1-bit approach.

> Of course there is the argument of
> simplicity, but long term I believe more information in the signal is mor=
e
> valuable.
>



--=20
Kazuho Oku


From nobody Wed Feb  7 05:34:50 2018
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Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 14:34:39 +0100
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Cc: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
To: Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>
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hi Jana,

popping back up from the detailed engineering, thank you for this =
reframing.

I largely agree that this is the question; a few comments / friendly =
amendments on each point.

> On 7 Feb 2018, at 00:00, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com> wrote:
>=20
> I'm going to try a different attempt at moving towards convergence. =
Thinking about this some more, and picking up something that Mirja said =
way earlier in this thread, I think the following decomposition is =
useful.
>=20
> 1. In the transport, all packet numbers start at 0, increasing =
monotonically. ACK frames carry these packet numbers, and therefore do =
not have to span large gaps and do not have to deal with increases in =
the size of the largest acked. Basically, no gaps are visible within the =
transport processing engine.
> 2. Before sending a packet on the wire, and before processing the =
packet, QUIC transforms the packet number with some function, replacing =
the visible packet number with the transformed value.
>=20
> I think we can all agree that (1) is goodness.

Yep! (modulo the (completely separate and inconsequential for this =
discussion) question of whether packet numbers start at 0 or 1)

> A sender is also free to use packet numbers from non-contiguous spaces =
here FWIW, but that's entirely independent of what's visible on the =
wire. This helps me separate transport processing complexity from the =
rest of it, which I think is helpful.

+1.

> I think we are disagreeing on the precise properties we want from the =
transformation in (2). If we can agree on these properties, we can then =
figure out whether it's possible and how to construct such a transform. =
Here's a union of what folks are concerned about:
> 1. Packet number must be unlinkable across connection ID change (for =
migration.)

s/must/should endeavor to be/ -- true unlinkability is unattainable. The =
goal here is to make sure the packet number doesn't make it a lot =
easier.

> 2. Packet number must start at an arbitrary value, to avoid =
ossification of the first packet number.

Presuming that the model of ossification you're using here is "a =
middlebox vendor grabbing on to any bits it can find to distinguish quic =
from not-quic UDP traffic", then yes, this seems reasonable.

(There are an entirely different space of designs, which contains TCP, =
where the packet number itself is an implicit signal to prove to the =
path that a packet belongs to a flow beyond the five-tuple. In that case =
the arbitrary start would be necessary to have actual entropy for that =
signal. But we've abandoned this as a requirement in QUIC, in part due =
to the fundamental tension between avoiding linkability and proving =
things to devices on the path about the relationships among packets, =
i.e., "linkability" in other words.)

> 3. Some sequencing information -- a few bits of the packet number =
perhaps -- should be revealed (for monitoring. Number of bits TBD.)

This is the crux of the argument. On one side we have the risk of misuse =
and ossification (well, not ossification -- these bits are *meant* for =
the path -- rather the risk that we'll figure out later that we =
specified the wrong thing), on the other side we have the loss of =
visibility into how QUIC traffic interacts with the network as compared =
to TCP, with a side question of whether or not this visibility is really =
the transport layer's problem despite the evolution the practice of =
diagnostics and troubleshooting using TCP information.

If we can come to agreement on this question, everything else falls into =
place. I have my arguments here, but as you said, this subthread is not =
the place for them. :)

> 4. Any packet number transformation should not be compute intensive.

I'd say "should not have an inordinate marginal impact on performance", =
because otherwise you go down the rabbithole of relative complexity, but =
yeah.

Cheers,

Brian



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From nobody Wed Feb  7 06:05:46 2018
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The QUIC WG has placed draft-thomson-quic-invariants in state
Call For Adoption By WG Issued (entered by Lars Eggert)

The document is available at
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-thomson-quic-invariants/


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The QUIC WG has placed draft-krasic-quic-qcram in state
Call For Adoption By WG Issued (entered by Lars Eggert)

The document is available at
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-krasic-quic-qcram/


From nobody Wed Feb  7 06:09:17 2018
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Changed milestone "Working group adoption of Core Protocol document",
resolved as "Done".

Changed milestone "Working group adoption of Loss detection and Congestion
Control document", resolved as "Done".

Changed milestone "Working group adoption of TLS 1.3 mapping document",
resolved as "Done".

Changed milestone "Working group adoption of HTTP/2 mapping document",
resolved as "Done".

Changed milestone "Working group adoption of QUIC Applicability and
Manageability Statement", resolved as "Done".

URL: https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/quic/about/


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From: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
Message-ID: <0828f8d4-e8cc-c4be-6062-6e9fe843f849@huitema.net>
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2018 14:37:17 -1000
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Subject: Re: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image (was Re: Packet number encryption)
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On 2/7/2018 1:10 AM, Kazuho Oku wrote:
> The pros of using a sequence that randomly distributes 0 and ones
> (i.e. PI or xorshift+) is that you can extract good loss / reordering
> information if the error rate is low.
>
> OTOH, it is fragile to high error rate or certain patterns of error.
> Let me explain two examples.
>
> Consider the case where the packet loss rate is 50%. I doubt if you
> could use pattern matching against those sequences to figure out the
> loss rate. This is because the power among the sequence is mostly high
> frequencies. If you use a sequence that distributes power among lower
> frequencies (like square wave or sin wave that I discussed), you can
> calculate the loss rate in such cases as well.

Actually, it should be possible to build a maximum likelihood decoder
for an xorshift sending pattern. You are mostly concerned with erasure
and permutations, and you roughly know the range of probability, so you
can see likelihood of 1, 2, 3, etc. erasures, or permutations in some
range. Obviously, the range that you can manage depends on the length of
the code. If you can keep the decoder synchronized, you will be able to
measure the erasure rate. If it looses synchronization, you know that
the error rate is truly horrendous, and that's information too. And
xorshift codes are self synchronizing, so you will regain
synchronization quickly.

-- Christian Huitema


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From: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
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On 2/7/2018 2:37 PM, Christian Huitema wrote:

> Actually, it should be possible to build a maximum likelihood decoder
> for an xorshift sending pattern. You are mostly concerned with erasure
> and permutations, and you roughly know the range of probability, so you=

> can see likelihood of 1, 2, 3, etc. erasures, or permutations in some
> range. Obviously, the range that you can manage depends on the length o=
f
> the code. If you can keep the decoder synchronized, you will be able to=

> measure the erasure rate. If it looses synchronization, you know that
> the error rate is truly horrendous, and that's information too. And
> xorshift codes are self synchronizing, so you will regain
> synchronization quickly.

What I had in mind was a polynomial code, such as crc32 or crc64. The
generation operation is:

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 unsigned int:1 next_bit_in_pattern()
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 {
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 static uint32_t seed =3D 0xc00=
lcode;
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 const uint32_t reminder =3D 0x=
1edc6f41;
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 overflow =3D seed>>31;
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 seed <<=3D 1;
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 seed^=3D (overflow*reminder);
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 return (seed&1);
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 }

Writing the trellis decoder is left as an exercise for the reader...

-- Christian Huitema


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From: Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 11:08:25 +0900
Message-ID: <CANatvzyqjCk0Obg0KOeUEcu7J-WFudzvsg-8dM51mHMzQzm_-w@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image (was Re: Packet number encryption)
To: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
Cc: IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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2018-02-08 9:37 GMT+09:00 Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>:
>
>
> On 2/7/2018 1:10 AM, Kazuho Oku wrote:
>> The pros of using a sequence that randomly distributes 0 and ones
>> (i.e. PI or xorshift+) is that you can extract good loss / reordering
>> information if the error rate is low.
>>
>> OTOH, it is fragile to high error rate or certain patterns of error.
>> Let me explain two examples.
>>
>> Consider the case where the packet loss rate is 50%. I doubt if you
>> could use pattern matching against those sequences to figure out the
>> loss rate. This is because the power among the sequence is mostly high
>> frequencies. If you use a sequence that distributes power among lower
>> frequencies (like square wave or sin wave that I discussed), you can
>> calculate the loss rate in such cases as well.
>
> Actually, it should be possible to build a maximum likelihood decoder
> for an xorshift sending pattern. You are mostly concerned with erasure
> and permutations, and you roughly know the range of probability, so you
> can see likelihood of 1, 2, 3, etc. erasures, or permutations in some
> range. Obviously, the range that you can manage depends on the length of
> the code. If you can keep the decoder synchronized, you will be able to
> measure the erasure rate.

I agree with you that it is possible to detect loss / reorder if the
decoder can be kept synchronized.

What I am questioning is the possibility of keeping the decoder
synchronized under heavy loss / reorder.

> If it looses synchronization, you know that
> the error rate is truly horrendous, and that's information too.

I disagree.

It might be true that loosing synchronization due to heavy loss can be
a signal. OTOH, loosing synchronization due to massive reorder is not
an issue if the reorder resolves in a certain timeframe (IIRC 1/8
RTT).

My understanding is that the middleboxes' reliance to the sequence
number has led to the ossification of TCP. The ossification has
prevented us from doing some nifty things, such as sending some TCP
packets through a different node while answering others directly. In
QUIC, I am interested in doing such things, and I would expect that
others will be.

Considering that, I would prefer not to exposing a signal that could
give false information to observers when there is a "good" reorder.

> And
> xorshift codes are self synchronizing, so you will regain
> synchronization quickly.
>
> -- Christian Huitema
>



-- 
Kazuho Oku


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From: Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 12:54:45 +0900
Message-ID: <CANatvzxt3CvWapVcd++PBG1OyJypXct9xWHVnsicu2mf-atC6g@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Explicit measurability in the QUIC wire image (was Re: Packet number encryption)
To: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
Cc: IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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2018-02-08 11:08 GMT+09:00 Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>:
> 2018-02-08 9:37 GMT+09:00 Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>:
>>
>>
>> On 2/7/2018 1:10 AM, Kazuho Oku wrote:
>>> The pros of using a sequence that randomly distributes 0 and ones
>>> (i.e. PI or xorshift+) is that you can extract good loss / reordering
>>> information if the error rate is low.
>>>
>>> OTOH, it is fragile to high error rate or certain patterns of error.
>>> Let me explain two examples.
>>>
>>> Consider the case where the packet loss rate is 50%. I doubt if you
>>> could use pattern matching against those sequences to figure out the
>>> loss rate. This is because the power among the sequence is mostly high
>>> frequencies. If you use a sequence that distributes power among lower
>>> frequencies (like square wave or sin wave that I discussed), you can
>>> calculate the loss rate in such cases as well.
>>
>> Actually, it should be possible to build a maximum likelihood decoder
>> for an xorshift sending pattern. You are mostly concerned with erasure
>> and permutations, and you roughly know the range of probability, so you
>> can see likelihood of 1, 2, 3, etc. erasures, or permutations in some
>> range. Obviously, the range that you can manage depends on the length of
>> the code. If you can keep the decoder synchronized, you will be able to
>> measure the erasure rate.
>
> I agree with you that it is possible to detect loss / reorder if the
> decoder can be kept synchronized.
>
> What I am questioning is the possibility of keeping the decoder
> synchronized under heavy loss / reorder.
>
>> If it looses synchronization, you know that
>> the error rate is truly horrendous, and that's information too.
>
> I disagree.
>
> It might be true that loosing synchronization due to heavy loss can be
> a signal. OTOH, loosing synchronization due to massive reorder is not
> an issue if the reorder resolves in a certain timeframe (IIRC 1/8
> RTT).
>
> My understanding is that the middleboxes' reliance to the sequence
> number has led to the ossification of TCP. The ossification has
> prevented us from doing some nifty things, such as sending some TCP
> packets through a different node while answering others directly. In
> QUIC, I am interested in doing such things, and I would expect that
> others will be.
>
> Considering that, I would prefer not to exposing a signal that could
> give false information to observers when there is a "good" reorder.

Please let me paraphrase the last sentence to the following:

I would prefer using a signal that is tolerant to "good" reorder (i.e.
happening frequently but resolving in a fraction of RTT so that they
don't trigger a retransmit).



Anyways, I think that we are making progress in sense that we are
discussing what is the "best" way to achieve loss / reorder
observability using 1 bit, rather than using multiple bits.

Use of less bits lead to less chance of leaking information as well as
finding space to store the information.

>
>> And
>> xorshift codes are self synchronizing, so you will regain
>> synchronization quickly.
>>
>> -- Christian Huitema
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Kazuho Oku



-- 
Kazuho Oku


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From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 05:10:46 -0600
Message-ID: <CAKKJt-e6R6DC5yyWnPZD1n5bR9aTvBbBSh-L6VudJ=GLkH31fA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: RE: Call for Adoption: Invariants
To: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
Cc: Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>, Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>,  Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>, Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>, "Brian Trammell (IETF)" <ietf@trammell.ch>, =?UTF-8?Q?Mikkel_Fahn=C3=B8e_J=C3=B8rgensen?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>,  QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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Still with no hat ...

On Feb 6, 2018 14:48, "Praveen Balasubramanian" <pravb@microsoft.com> wrote=
:

+1 on =E2=80=9CThe QUIC transport draft specifically does not say anything =
about
which UDP ports are to be used -- QUIC is a transport after all, and there
is no reason to tie the entire transport to a port.=E2=80=9D

Thanks to multiple people who have replied.

I understand that QUIC isn't tied to a single UDP port number. I was
thinking about the deployability story for a non-backward-compatible QUIC
version that can't be demuxed from previous versions - what I think I'm
hearing is that such a new QUIC version would require thought about getting
a new UDP port opened the way 443 seems to be today.

I'll shut up and let you guys do QUIC now :-)

Spencer



*From:* QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Jana Iyengar
*Sent:* Tuesday, February 6, 2018 11:26 AM
*To:* Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>
*Cc:* Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>; Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>;
Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>; Lars Eggert <
lars@eggert.org>; Brian Trammell (IETF) <ietf@trammell.ch>; Mikkel Fahn=C3=
=B8e
J=C3=B8rgensen <mikkelfj@gmail.com>; QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>

*Subject:* Re: Call for Adoption: Invariants



What Mike said -- UDP/443 was allocated for HTTP over UDP, but is not
required for HTTP/QUIC. The HTTP mapping document currently says (in Sectio=
n
2.1
<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fquicwg.=
github.io%2Fbase-drafts%2Fdraft-ietf-quic-http.html%23rfc.section.2.1&data=
=3D02%7C01%7Cpravb%40microsoft.com%7C18885d6ec0154037503208d56d977dae%7Cee3=
303d7fb734b0c8589bcd847f1c277%7C1%7C0%7C636535419805671598&sdata=3D%2B0h%2B=
1meATs8rcF%2F66Tb%2BvxshTFFULLfwqwoHxuy6Cb0%3D&reserved=3D0>)
"Servers MAY serve HTTP/QUIC on any UDP port." We can discuss this, but
let's move that discussion to where it belongs, on #495
<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fgithub.=
com%2Fquicwg%2Fbase-drafts%2Fissues%2F495&data=3D02%7C01%7Cpravb%40microsof=
t.com%7C18885d6ec0154037503208d56d977dae%7Cee3303d7fb734b0c8589bcd847f1c277=
%7C1%7C0%7C636535419805681132&sdata=3Dams4Bh5t3rldzh4uok6YJvGlnx8o0R7ELAogQ=
8iIK54%3D&reserved=3D0>
.



The QUIC transport draft specifically does not say anything about which UDP
ports are to be used -- QUIC is a transport after all, and there is no
reason to tie the entire transport to a port.



On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 11:09 AM, Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be> wrote:

Two notes, one against interest:  That PR is old and currently parked,
because we don=E2=80=99t have consensus and it=E2=80=99s less urgent.  And =
secondly,
UDP/443 is already allocated by IANA for HTTP over UDP.



*From:* Ted Hardie [mailto:ted.ietf@gmail.com]
*Sent:* Tuesday, February 6, 2018 10:57 AM
*To:* Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
*Cc:* Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>; Brian Trammell (IETF) <
ietf@trammell.ch>; Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen <mikkelfj@gmail.com>; =
QUIC WG <
quic@ietf.org>; Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>; Lars Eggert <
lars@eggert.org>
*Subject:* Re: Call for Adoption: Invariants



On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 6:54 AM, Spencer Dawkins at IETF <
spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

Asking with no hat, but ...



On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 1:00 PM, Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be> wrote:

I support adoption.  The way to change the invariants will be to mint a new
protocol, and not claim that your new protocol is a version of QUIC.  If it
happens to be startlingly similar, all well and good.



If you roll a new protocol, that's not a version of QUIC, is it obvious to
everyone but me whether you can run both protocols on UDP/443?





Mike Bishop's PR defining httpq as a scheme (https://github.com/quicwg/
base-drafts/pull/348
<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fgithub.=
com%2Fquicwg%2Fbase-drafts%2Fpull%2F348&data=3D02%7C01%7Cpravb%40microsoft.=
com%7C18885d6ec0154037503208d56d977dae%7Cee3303d7fb734b0c8589bcd847f1c277%7=
C1%7C0%7C636535419805681132&sdata=3DwTDG5fmupXJRRSFroNyBRpcbuwjQzz5fXs%2B41=
F6DheA%3D&reserved=3D0>)
defines UDP 443 as the default for httpq.  I think that pretty much asserts
that UDP/443 is QUIC, not a forked variant.



I thought I remembered that UDP/443 was chosen because firewalls often pass
port 443, so that aids deployment. Hence, my question.





Yes.  That may cause us to consider carefully whether UDP/443 ought to be
defined for QUIC more rather than HTTP over QUIC, or even more generally.

Ted




Thanks,



Spencer

--001a114d7d3eb26ed90564b17665
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto"><div>Still with no hat ...<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra">=
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Feb 6, 2018 14:48, &quot;Praveen Balasubr=
amanian&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pravb@microsoft.com">pravb@microsoft.co=
m</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_3289560377413332761WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">+1 on =E2=80=9CThe QUIC transport draft specifically=
 does not say anything about which UDP ports are to be used -- QUIC is a tr=
ansport after all, and there is no reason to tie the entire transport to a =
port.=E2=80=9D</p></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div><div dir=3D"au=
to">Thanks to multiple people who have replied.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br>=
</div><div dir=3D"auto">I understand that QUIC isn&#39;t tied to a single U=
DP port number. I was thinking about the deployability story for a non-back=
ward-compatible QUIC version that can&#39;t be demuxed from previous versio=
ns - what I think I&#39;m hearing is that such a new QUIC version would req=
uire thought about getting a new UDP port opened the way 443 seems to be to=
day.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">I&#39;ll shut up an=
d let you guys do QUIC now :-)</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D=
"auto">Spencer</div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bor=
der-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue"=
 vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"m_3289560377413332761WordSection1"><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> QUIC [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bou=
nces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Jana Iyengar<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 6, 2018 11:26 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mike Bishop &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbishop@evequefou.be" target=
=3D"_blank">mbishop@evequefou.be</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Ted Hardie &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ted.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_=
blank">ted.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;; Mark Nottingham &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mn=
ot@mnot.net" target=3D"_blank">mnot@mnot.net</a>&gt;; Spencer Dawkins at IE=
TF &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">s=
pencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com</a><wbr>&gt;; Lars Eggert &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:lars@eggert.org" target=3D"_blank">lars@eggert.org</a>&gt;; Brian Trammel=
l (IETF) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@trammell.ch" target=3D"_blank">ietf@tra=
mmell.ch</a>&gt;; Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:m=
ikkelfj@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mikkelfj@gmail.com</a>&gt;; QUIC
 WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic@ietf.org</a=
>&gt;</p><div class=3D"quoted-text"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Call for Adoption: Invariants<u></u><u></u></div><p></p=
><div class=3D"quoted-text">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">What Mike said -- UDP/443 was allocated for HTTP ove=
r UDP, but is not required for HTTP/QUIC.=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:12.=
0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:#222222;background:white=
">The HTTP mapping document currently says (in=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https=
://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fquicwg.github=
.io%2Fbase-drafts%2Fdraft-ietf-quic-http.html%23rfc.section.2.1&amp;data=3D=
02%7C01%7Cpravb%40microsoft.com%7C18885d6ec0154037503208d56d977dae%7Cee3303=
d7fb734b0c8589bcd847f1c277%7C1%7C0%7C636535419805671598&amp;sdata=3D%2B0h%2=
B1meATs8rcF%2F66Tb%2BvxshTFFULLfwqwoHxuy6Cb0%3D&amp;reserved=3D0" target=3D=
"_blank"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans=
-serif;color:#1155cc;background:white">Section
 2.1</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot=
;,sans-serif;color:#222222;background:white">) &quot;Servers MAY serve HTTP=
/QUIC on any UDP port.&quot; We can discuss this, but let&#39;s move that d=
iscussion to where it belongs, on=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://na01.safelinks.pr=
otection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fquicwg%2Fbase-drafts=
%2Fissues%2F495&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Cpravb%40microsoft.com%7C18885d6ec01540=
37503208d56d977dae%7Cee3303d7fb734b0c8589bcd847f1c277%7C1%7C0%7C63653541980=
5681132&amp;sdata=3Dams4Bh5t3rldzh4uok6YJvGlnx8o0R7ELAogQ8iIK54%3D&amp;rese=
rved=3D0" target=3D"_blank">#495</a>.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">The QUIC transport dr=
aft specifically does not say anything about which UDP ports are to be used=
 -- QUIC is a transport after all, and there is no reason to tie the entire=
 transport to a port.<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 11:09 AM, Mike Bishop &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mbishop@evequefou.be" target=3D"_blank">mbishop@evequefou.be=
</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Two notes, one against interest:=C2=A0 That PR is ol=
d and currently parked, because we don=E2=80=99t have consensus and it=E2=
=80=99s less urgent.=C2=A0 And secondly, UDP/443 is already allocated by IA=
NA
 for HTTP over UDP.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Ted Hardie [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:te=
d.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">ted.ietf@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 6, 2018 10:57 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Spencer Dawkins at IETF &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spencerdawkins.iet=
f@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com</a><wbr>&gt;<b=
r>
<b>Cc:</b> Mike Bishop &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mbishop@evequefou.be" target=
=3D"_blank">mbishop@evequefou.be</a>&gt;; Brian Trammell (IETF) &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:ietf@trammell.ch" target=3D"_blank">ietf@trammell.ch</a>&gt;; Mi=
kkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank">mikkelfj@gmail.com</a>&gt;;
 QUIC WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt;; Mark Nottingham &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mnot@mnot.net" target=3D"=
_blank">mnot@mnot.net</a>&gt;; Lars Eggert &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lars@egger=
t.org" target=3D"_blank">lars@eggert.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Call for Adoption: Invariants<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Tue, Feb 6, 2018 at 6:54 AM, Spencer Dawkins at I=
ETF &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">=
spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com</a><wbr>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Asking with no hat, but ...<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Mon, Feb 5, 2018 at 1:00 PM, Mike Bishop &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:mbishop@evequefou.be" target=3D"_blank">mbishop@evequefou.be<=
/a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I support adoption.=C2=A0 The way to change the inva=
riants will be to mint a new protocol, and not claim that your new protocol=
 is a version of QUIC.=C2=A0 If it happens to be startlingly
 similar, all well and good.<u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If you roll a new protocol, that&#39;s not a version=
 of QUIC, is it obvious to everyone but me whether you can run both protoco=
ls on UDP/443?=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Mike Bishop&#39;s PR defining httpq as a scheme (<a =
href=3D"https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2F=
github.com%2Fquicwg%2Fbase-drafts%2Fpull%2F348&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Cpravb%4=
0microsoft.com%7C18885d6ec0154037503208d56d977dae%7Cee3303d7fb734b0c8589bcd=
847f1c277%7C1%7C0%7C636535419805681132&amp;sdata=3DwTDG5fmupXJRRSFroNyBRpcb=
uwjQzz5fXs%2B41F6DheA%3D&amp;reserved=3D0" target=3D"_blank">https://github=
.com/quicwg/<wbr>base-drafts/pull/348</a>)
 defines UDP 443 as the default for httpq.=C2=A0 I think that pretty much a=
sserts that UDP/443 is QUIC, not a forked variant.=C2=A0
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I thought I remembered that UDP/443 was chosen becau=
se firewalls often pass port 443, so that aids deployment. Hence, my questi=
on.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">Yes.=C2=A0 That may c=
ause us to consider carefully whether UDP/443 ought to be defined for QUIC =
more rather than HTTP over QUIC, or even more generally.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Ted<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Spencer<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div></div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div></div></div>

--001a114d7d3eb26ed90564b17665--


From nobody Thu Feb  8 05:04:29 2018
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Subject: QUIC (quic) WG Interim Meeting: 2018-06-06
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The QUIC (quic) Working Group will hold
a multi-day interim meeting.

Session 1:
2018-06-06     09:00 to 17:00  Europe/Berlin
Session 2:
2018-06-07     09:00 to 17:00  Europe/Berlin

Meeting Location:
Kista, SE

Agenda:
https://github.com/quicwg/wg-materials/blob/master/interim-18-06/agenda.md

Information about remote participation:
https://github.com/quicwg/wg-materials/blob/master/interim-18-06/arrangements.md

Preceded by non-IETF QUIC interop event on June 4-5, same location


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From: Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv@google.com>
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 14:49:48 -0500
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Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
To: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
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--001a11441462e996a70564b8b65c
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

On Wed, Feb 7, 2018 at 12:43 PM, Praveen Balasubramanian <
pravb@microsoft.com> wrote:
>
> 2. If middlebox ossification is a big concern, we mainly need obfuscation
> and not encryption. Another option for example would be an XOR transform
> with some variable field in the encrypted portion of the packet (as an
> example sequence number of the first stream frame if it is present or some
> random pad bytes when its not present). I hope we can be creative here to
> reduce computation cost.
>
Obfuscation is just encryption done poorly.

I am concerned that in 2018, we still are talking about encryption being
expensive -- symmetric block encryption, of all things.

--001a11441462e996a70564b8b65c
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On W=
ed, Feb 7, 2018 at 12:43 PM, Praveen Balasubramanian <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;=
<a href=3D"mailto:pravb@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank">pravb@microsoft.co=
m</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US" l=
ink=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"m_4130394345813496211WordSectio=
n1">
<p class=3D"m_4130394345813496211MsoPlainText">2. If middlebox ossification=
 is a big concern, we mainly need obfuscation and not encryption. Another o=
ption for example would be an XOR transform with some variable field in the=
 encrypted portion of the packet (as an example sequence
 number of the first stream frame if it is present or some random pad bytes=
 when its not present). I hope we can be creative here to reduce computatio=
n cost.</p></div></div></blockquote><div>Obfuscation is just encryption don=
e poorly.</div><div><br></div><div>I am concerned that in 2018, we still ar=
e talking about encryption being expensive -- symmetric block encryption, o=
f all things.<br></div></div></div></div>

--001a11441462e996a70564b8b65c--


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From: "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>
To: Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv@google.com>, Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
CC: Marten Seemann <martenseemann@gmail.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>,  huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
Thread-Topic: Packet number encryption
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Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 19:59:51 +0000
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From: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
To: Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv@google.com>
CC: Marten Seemann <martenseemann@gmail.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>,  huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
Subject: RE: Packet number encryption
Thread-Topic: Packet number encryption
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Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 22:32:45 +0000
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Subject: Re: QUIC (quic) WG Interim Meeting: 2018-06-06
From: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
In-Reply-To: <151809506296.17228.17281018611304930059@ietfa.amsl.com>
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 10:02:59 +1100
Cc: Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>
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Registration is now open; see the arrangements page. Please note the =
guidelines for attendance there.

Cheers,


> On 9 Feb 2018, at 12:04 am, IESG Secretary <iesg-secretary@ietf.org> =
wrote:
>=20
> The QUIC (quic) Working Group will hold
> a multi-day interim meeting.
>=20
> Session 1:
> 2018-06-06     09:00 to 17:00  Europe/Berlin
> Session 2:
> 2018-06-07     09:00 to 17:00  Europe/Berlin
>=20
> Meeting Location:
> Kista, SE
>=20
> Agenda:
> =
https://github.com/quicwg/wg-materials/blob/master/interim-18-06/agenda.md=

>=20
> Information about remote participation:
> =
https://github.com/quicwg/wg-materials/blob/master/interim-18-06/arrangeme=
nts.md
>=20
> Preceded by non-IETF QUIC interop event on June 4-5, same location
>=20

--
Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/


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On Fri, 9 Feb 2018, Mark Nottingham wrote:

> Registration is now open; see the arrangements page. Please note the 
> guidelines for attendance there.

I noticed a little mistake: the arrangements page says registration closes on 
June 3rd, while the google forms page says May 3rd...

-- 

  / daniel.haxx.se


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From: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
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Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
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On 2/8/2018 1:13 PM, Mike Bishop wrote:

> #2 won=E2=80=99t work.=C2=A0 The packet number is an input to the AEAD =
nonce, so
> you have to get to the packet number before you can decrypt the
> payload.=C2=A0 It can=E2=80=99t be based on anything internal to the en=
crypted packet.
>
> =C2=A0
>
> In Martin=E2=80=99s proposal, it=E2=80=99s using a combination of the e=
ncrypted
> payload (which requires nothing to access) and some stored state on
> each endpoint, which requires only the Connection ID to look up.=C2=A0 =
You
> want the thing you XOR by to be constantly changing, or it becomes
> easier to look at sequences of obfuscated packet numbers and start
> drawing inferences about what the XOR value is.=C2=A0 If overhead is th=
e
> primary concern, I think there are a couple approaches that might
> allow you to precompute values and amortize the cost of doing the
> encryption step.=C2=A0 (At the cost of keeping the table of precomputed=

> values, of course.)
>
> =C2=A0
>
> I still think Jana=E2=80=99s pushing in the right direction here:=C2=A0=
 Let=E2=80=99s agree
> on goals, and then see if we can craft a design that meets those
> goals.=C2=A0 I hear you saying that low overhead is a goal, which I thi=
nk
> we can all agree on.=C2=A0 I also think I hear you saying that 1-1.5%
> overhead is too high, but it sounds like there=E2=80=99s less agreement=
 on
> that.=C2=A0 You also raise an interesting point that some clients will =
care
> less about linkability because they will never intentionally migrate.
>

I think Victor said it best, "Obfuscation is just encryption done
poorly." Either we encrypt, or we don't. But there is no such thing as
an obfuscation middle-ground. Obfuscation would just be a speed bump,
easily broken. It won't provide privacy, and it won't prevent linkability=
=2E

As far as I am concerned, there are only two designs that prevent
linkability:

1) Martin's PR, in which the packet number is encrypted using sensible
crypto;

2) Or, leaving the packet number in the clear but using different
encryption contexts for each path, and using separate packet sequences
for each path.

The second option requires more computation when explicitly setting up a
new path. The connection ID would be used as part of the "salt" when
deriving connection contexts. The packet number on each path will start
at 1 (or maybe 0 ;-). This requires maintaining separate SACK dashboards
for each path/Connection-ID, and constraining ACK to be per/path, or
alternatively adding a PATH-ACK frame that indicates the path for which
packets are acked.

The pros and cons of the two options are easy to get:

1) Option 2 does not require the cost of encrypting every packet, thus
per packet processing will be maybe 1% faster than option 1.

2) Option 2 requires computing encryption contexts for each path, which
is more complex than option 1, but the cost will be amortized over the
duration of the path.

3) Option 2 requires more complex data structures and ACK management,
thus increasing the chances that something goes wrong.

4) Option 2 does nothing against packet number ossification. The packet
number effectively becomes part of the invariants.

In short, the only advantage of option 2 is to avoid a single symmetric
encryption operation per packet, while making the code significantly
more complex, and at the cost of not protecting against PN ossification.
The way I see that, there is hardly any debate.

-- Christian Huitema


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    <p>On 2/8/2018 1:13 PM, Mike Bishop wrote:<br>
    </p>
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        <p class="MsoNormal">#2 won’t work.  The packet number is an
          input to the AEAD nonce, so you have to get to the packet
          number before you can decrypt the payload.  It can’t be based
          on anything internal to the encrypted packet.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">In Martin’s proposal, it’s using a
          combination of the encrypted payload (which requires nothing
          to access) and some stored state on each endpoint, which
          requires only the Connection ID to look up.  You want the
          thing you XOR by to be constantly changing, or it becomes
          easier to look at sequences of obfuscated packet numbers and
          start drawing inferences about what the XOR value is.  If
          overhead is the primary concern, I think there are a couple
          approaches that might allow you to precompute values and
          amortize the cost of doing the encryption step.  (At the cost
          of keeping the table of precomputed values, of course.)<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">I still think Jana’s pushing in the right
          direction here:  Let’s agree on goals, and then see if we can
          craft a design that meets those goals.  I hear you saying that
          low overhead is a goal, which I think we can all agree on.  I
          also think I hear you saying that 1-1.5% overhead is too high,
          but it sounds like there’s less agreement on that.  You also
          raise an interesting point that some clients will care less
          about linkability because they will never intentionally
          migrate.<br>
        </p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    I think Victor said it best, "Obfuscation is just encryption done
    poorly." Either we encrypt, or we don't. But there is no such thing
    as an obfuscation middle-ground. Obfuscation would just be a speed
    bump, easily broken. It won't provide privacy, and it won't prevent
    linkability.<br>
    <br>
    As far as I am concerned, there are only two designs that prevent
    linkability:<br>
    <br>
    1) Martin's PR, in which the packet number is encrypted using
    sensible crypto;<br>
    <br>
    2) Or, leaving the packet number in the clear but using different
    encryption contexts for each path, and using separate packet
    sequences for each path.<br>
    <br>
    The second option requires more computation when explicitly setting
    up a new path. The connection ID would be used as part of the "salt"
    when deriving connection contexts. The packet number on each path
    will start at 1 (or maybe 0 ;-). This requires maintaining separate
    SACK dashboards for each path/Connection-ID, and constraining ACK to
    be per/path, or alternatively adding a PATH-ACK frame that indicates
    the path for which packets are acked.<br>
    <br>
    The pros and cons of the two options are easy to get:<br>
    <br>
    1) Option 2 does not require the cost of encrypting every packet,
    thus per packet processing will be maybe 1% faster than option 1. <br>
    <br>
    2) Option 2 requires computing encryption contexts for each path,
    which is more complex than option 1, but the cost will be amortized
    over the duration of the path.<br>
    <br>
    3) Option 2 requires more complex data structures and ACK
    management, thus increasing the chances that something goes wrong.<br>
    <br>
    4) Option 2 does nothing against packet number ossification. The
    packet number effectively becomes part of the invariants.<br>
    <br>
    In short, the only advantage of option 2 is to avoid a single
    symmetric encryption operation per packet, while making the code
    significantly more complex, and at the cost of not protecting
    against PN ossification. The way I see that, there is hardly any
    debate.<br>
    <br>
    -- Christian Huitema<br>
    <br>
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From: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
To: Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>, Marten Seemann <martenseemann@gmail.com>, huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
CC: "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Packet number encryption
Thread-Topic: Packet number encryption
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From: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
To: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>, Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>, Marten Seemann <martenseemann@gmail.com>, huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
CC: "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Packet number encryption
Thread-Topic: Packet number encryption
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References: <151809506296.17228.17281018611304930059@ietfa.amsl.com> <6203282A-CD65-4049-A499-DED34431E912@mnot.net> <alpine.DEB.2.20.1802090008580.10099@tvnag.unkk.fr>
From: Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2018 17:09:18 -0800
Message-ID: <CAGD1bZZuHXRnH8ggZUFY5zCUARUOfBSmUF7Kj05VJCd8XOL1Vg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: QUIC (quic) WG Interim Meeting: 2018-06-06
To: Daniel Stenberg <daniel@haxx.se>
Cc: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>, Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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This may be worth clarifying, since I was briefly confused at first, and at
least one other person missed this detail: The email says Europe/Berlin for
timezone, but the location is actually Kista, Sweden.
(This is clear if you read the email carefully or if you get to the
arrangements page, but clicking on a link can be hard sometimes :-))


On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 3:10 PM, Daniel Stenberg <daniel@haxx.se> wrote:

> On Fri, 9 Feb 2018, Mark Nottingham wrote:
>
> Registration is now open; see the arrangements page. Please note the
>> guidelines for attendance there.
>>
>
> I noticed a little mistake: the arrangements page says registration closes
> on June 3rd, while the google forms page says May 3rd...
>
> --
>
>  / daniel.haxx.se
>
>

--f403045ed28c86bdac0564bd2d92
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>This may be worth clarifying, since I was briefly con=
fused at first, and at least one other person missed this detail: The email=
 says Europe/Berlin for timezone, but the location is actually Kista, Swede=
n.</div><div>(This is clear if you read the email carefully or if you get t=
o the arrangements page, but clicking on a link can be hard sometimes :-))<=
/div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmai=
l_quote">On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 3:10 PM, Daniel Stenberg <span dir=3D"ltr">=
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:daniel@haxx.se" target=3D"_blank">daniel@haxx.se</a>&=
gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 =
0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D"">On Fri=
, 9 Feb 2018, Mark Nottingham wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Registration is now open; see the arrangements page. Please note the guidel=
ines for attendance there.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></span>
I noticed a little mistake: the arrangements page says registration closes =
on June 3rd, while the google forms page says May 3rd...<span class=3D"HOEn=
Zb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
<br>
-- <br>
<br>
=C2=A0/ <a href=3D"http://daniel.haxx.se" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_bla=
nk">daniel.haxx.se</a><br>
<br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div>

--f403045ed28c86bdac0564bd2d92--


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From: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
To: huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Packet number encryption
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From: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 12:50:58 +1100
Message-ID: <CABkgnnVP54PJ0XJswNkZxWgrxokNEe2_hq8kVtF+iHjZBOVs9A@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: QUIC (quic) WG Interim Meeting: 2018-06-06
To: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
Cc: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>
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Thanks to our hosts Ericsson.

On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 10:02 AM, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:
> Registration is now open; see the arrangements page. Please note the guidelines for attendance there.
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>> On 9 Feb 2018, at 12:04 am, IESG Secretary <iesg-secretary@ietf.org> wrote:
>>
>> The QUIC (quic) Working Group will hold
>> a multi-day interim meeting.
>>
>> Session 1:
>> 2018-06-06     09:00 to 17:00  Europe/Berlin
>> Session 2:
>> 2018-06-07     09:00 to 17:00  Europe/Berlin
>>
>> Meeting Location:
>> Kista, SE
>>
>> Agenda:
>> https://github.com/quicwg/wg-materials/blob/master/interim-18-06/agenda.md
>>
>> Information about remote participation:
>> https://github.com/quicwg/wg-materials/blob/master/interim-18-06/arrangements.md
>>
>> Preceded by non-IETF QUIC interop event on June 4-5, same location
>>
>
> --
> Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/
>


From nobody Thu Feb  8 21:40:24 2018
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From: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
To: huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Packet number encryption
Thread-Topic: Packet number encryption
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From: Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>
To: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>, huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Packet number encryption
Thread-Topic: Packet number encryption
Thread-Index: AQHTmW33YzpoOLX0UU2dbBSG8l3vaKOMgUQAgABeoYCAAAgUAIAAd3KAgAA8YgCAACPEAIAAAiYAgAOBloCAALfdgIAACBkAgAEGGACAANx9AIAAn5KAgAB7w4CAADUigIAADBeAgADXOQCAAGavgIAAEEgAgACizACAADhiAIAAHkiAgAADUYCAACabIIAAVcAAgAAUZQCAAA5oAIAAEIEAgABFkgCAAAUSgIAABUkAgAABmYCAAAaRgIAAC4qAgACi8QCAAemoIIAAEAEAgAAgsACAAEARAIAACIow
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From: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
To: Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>, huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Packet number encryption
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From: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
To: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>, Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>, huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Packet number encryption
Thread-Topic: Packet number encryption
Thread-Index: AQHTmW31V+0GAWpR/E2VqOCVLx9SYqOMgUQAgABeoYCAAAgUAIAAd3KAgAA8YgCAACPEAIAAAiYAgAOBloCAALfdgIAACBkAgAEGGACAANx9AIAAn5KAgAB7w4CAADUigIAADBeAgADUsaCAAGk3gIAAEEgAgACizACAADhiAIAAHkiAgAADUYCAACdFAIAAVRYAgAAUZQCAAA5oAIAAD4fQgABGjACAAAGHQIAACNQAgAAAqaCAAAeBgIAAC4qAgACi02CAAe6PgIAACzgAgAARh3CAAEwGwIAADioAgAALB8CAAAJ3UA==
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Message-ID: <CAN1APdeUzoxMaA-U6Ls4q_hw1b4BXZzwOCvo2dGm=s8YTokWAQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: RE: Packet number encryption
To: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>, Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>,  "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
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You can=E2=80=99t safely reuse the combination of nonce and key, IIUC.  Sin=
ce key
rollover is infrequent, the nonce has to change every packet and be
guaranteed unique over the lifetime of, if not the connection, at least the
current key.

For CTR mode encryption which AES-GCM is, it is extremely bad to reuse the
nonce. But it is still permitted if nonce only repeats with very low
probability, like 2^-32 or so, don=E2=80=99t recall. This means that using =
a crypto
hashed packet numbers as a nonce is an option, but a homegrown obfuscation
is not.

As to hashing the packet number instead of encrypting, there is hardly any
worthwhile hash that is faster than using AES, but precomputing the AES
over several blocks as Mike and I have suggested earlier, is an option
unless you expect large losses where a small lookup table is insufficient
on average.

I share the concern on relying on the a peers weak PRNG for packet jumps
etc. especially  if it is not the same as the crypto PRNG because if that
is broken, it doesn=E2=80=99t matter anyway.

As the the 1% number - it is the only real life data we have, but I already
argued that the overhead can much higher in low-latency operations with
short packets. It has also been argued that packet number is lower than
AEAD because it is shorter, but encrypting 64 bytes AEAD for a message is
the same as encrypting 16 bytes packet number because of instruction level
parallelism on current Intel hardware. You can see how the performance
increases with data length in appendix A

https://software.intel.com/sites/default/files/m/d/4/1/d/8/10TB24_Breakthro=
ugh_AES_Performance_with_Intel_AES_New_Instructions.final.secure.pdf

Mikkel

On 9 February 2018 at 07.19.32, Mike Bishop (mbishop@evequefou.be) wrote:

You can=E2=80=99t safely reuse the combination of nonce and key, IIUC.  Sin=
ce key
rollover is infrequent, the nonce has to change every packet and be
guaranteed unique over the lifetime of, if not the connection, at least the
current key.  Since packet numbers also don=E2=80=99t repeat over the lifet=
ime of
the connection, I think using one as the variable part of the other was
just taking advantage of the alignment.



I don=E2=80=99t think having a randomized starting value and incrementing i=
s
necessarily any better than exposing the packet number.  Having a PRNG seed
established during the handshake and making the visible thing the next
random output seems potentially interesting, but I=E2=80=99d want our more
crypto-minded friends to comment.  I think the real issue would be
guarantees about never-repeating from the PRNG, particularly as you don=E2=
=80=99t
have guarantees about your peer=E2=80=99s implementation.  A defined key de=
rivation
and a counter can be verified in the protocol, independent of how good the
peer=E2=80=99s PRNG is.



*From:* QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Praveen
Balasubramanian
*Sent:* Thursday, February 8, 2018 9:40 PM
*To:* huitema <huitema@huitema.net>; quic@ietf.org
*Subject:* RE: Packet number encryption



Actually taking a step back what if we don=E2=80=99t we overloaded packet n=
umber as
the nonce?



Can we:

   1. Put packet number as a separate variable length field in the
   encrypted portion of the header. This allows for growth beyond 64 bits i=
n
   future and completely avoids ossification. For short lived flows variabl=
e
   length encoding leads to minimal space overhead.
   2. Put a separate plaintext nonce which starts out as a secure random
   number and monotonically increases as short random jumps (every packet o=
r
   every few packets) and could then rollover. This will prevent linkabilit=
y
   and scales to multi-path as well. No major compute overhead. We can also
   make the nonce optional for crypto algorithms that do not need a nonce
   saving more space.



Some MSB of the nonce could be used for signaling reorder to the network if
needed. I don=E2=80=99t have the historical context for overloading of PN a=
s the
nonce so pardon me if un-overloading option was discussed and ruled out
before.



*From:* QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org <quic-bounces@ietf.org>] *On
Behalf Of *Praveen Balasubramanian
*Sent:* Thursday, February 8, 2018 5:51 PM
*To:* huitema <huitema@huitema.net>; quic@ietf.org
*Subject:* RE: Packet number encryption



>> and using separate packet sequences for each path

This alone prevents linkability right?



>> The packet number on each path will start at 1 (or maybe 0 ;-).

Is supporting multiple paths at the same time a goal? If yes, then yes all
paths will need to have separate tracking and ACK state and congestion
control etc. I thought this is not part of V1 RFC. If its just one
additional path for connection migration scenario then all you need is a
(random) jump to a offset in packet number space for the new path so that
the few packets in the old path can continue for a little bit. This works
with just one ACK space so no implementation complexity.



>> 2) Or, leaving the packet number in the clear but using different
encryption contexts for each path, and using separate packet sequences for
each path.
In addition if the value in the clear was obfuscated with an XOR transform
it will help prevent ossification. The obfuscation is not meant to guard
against later analysis that reveals the packet numbers - why do we care
about that. It is meant to grease the space and not make the numbers serial
so middleboxes cannot assume ordering etc.



All said if I am alone in being concerned about the perf hit then I=E2=80=
=99d say
go on with option 1.



*From:* QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org <quic-bounces@ietf.org>] *On
Behalf Of *Christian Huitema
*Sent:* Thursday, February 8, 2018 3:54 PM
*To:* quic@ietf.org
*Subject:* Re: Packet number encryption



On 2/8/2018 1:13 PM, Mike Bishop wrote:

#2 won=E2=80=99t work.  The packet number is an input to the AEAD nonce, so=
 you
have to get to the packet number before you can decrypt the payload.  It
can=E2=80=99t be based on anything internal to the encrypted packet.



In Martin=E2=80=99s proposal, it=E2=80=99s using a combination of the encry=
pted payload
(which requires nothing to access) and some stored state on each endpoint,
which requires only the Connection ID to look up.  You want the thing you
XOR by to be constantly changing, or it becomes easier to look at sequences
of obfuscated packet numbers and start drawing inferences about what the
XOR value is.  If overhead is the primary concern, I think there are a
couple approaches that might allow you to precompute values and amortize
the cost of doing the encryption step.  (At the cost of keeping the table
of precomputed values, of course.)



I still think Jana=E2=80=99s pushing in the right direction here:  Let=E2=
=80=99s agree on
goals, and then see if we can craft a design that meets those goals.  I
hear you saying that low overhead is a goal, which I think we can all agree
on.  I also think I hear you saying that 1-1.5% overhead is too high, but
it sounds like there=E2=80=99s less agreement on that.  You also raise an
interesting point that some clients will care less about linkability
because they will never intentionally migrate.


I think Victor said it best, "Obfuscation is just encryption done poorly."
Either we encrypt, or we don't. But there is no such thing as an
obfuscation middle-ground. Obfuscation would just be a speed bump, easily
broken. It won't provide privacy, and it won't prevent linkability.

As far as I am concerned, there are only two designs that prevent
linkability:

1) Martin's PR, in which the packet number is encrypted using sensible
crypto;

2) Or, leaving the packet number in the clear but using different
encryption contexts for each path, and using separate packet sequences for
each path.

The second option requires more computation when explicitly setting up a
new path. The connection ID would be used as part of the "salt" when
deriving connection contexts. The packet number on each path will start at
1 (or maybe 0 ;-). This requires maintaining separate SACK dashboards for
each path/Connection-ID, and constraining ACK to be per/path, or
alternatively adding a PATH-ACK frame that indicates the path for which
packets are acked.

The pros and cons of the two options are easy to get:

1) Option 2 does not require the cost of encrypting every packet, thus per
packet processing will be maybe 1% faster than option 1.

2) Option 2 requires computing encryption contexts for each path, which is
more complex than option 1, but the cost will be amortized over the
duration of the path.

3) Option 2 requires more complex data structures and ACK management, thus
increasing the chances that something goes wrong.

4) Option 2 does nothing against packet number ossification. The packet
number effectively becomes part of the invariants.

In short, the only advantage of option 2 is to avoid a single symmetric
encryption operation per packet, while making the code significantly more
complex, and at the cost of not protecting against PN ossification. The way
I see that, there is hardly any debate.

-- Christian Huitema

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<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><blockquote type=3D"=
cite" class=3D"clean_bq"><div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue=
" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span=
 style=3D"color:windowtext">You can=E2=80=99t safely reuse the combination =
of nonce and key, IIUC.=C2=A0 Since key rollover is infrequent, the nonce h=
as to change every packet and be guaranteed unique over the lifetime of, if=
 not the connection, at least the current key.</span></p></div></div></bloc=
kquote></div> For CTR mode encryption which AES-GCM is, it is extremely bad=
 to reuse the nonce. But it is still permitted if nonce only repeats with v=
ery low probability, like 2^-32 or so, don=E2=80=99t recall. This means tha=
t using a crypto hashed packet numbers as a nonce is an option, but a homeg=
rown obfuscation is not.<div><br></div><div>As to hashing the packet number=
 instead of encrypting, there is hardly any worthwhile hash that is faster =
than using AES, but precomputing the AES over several blocks as Mike and I =
have suggested earlier, is an option unless you expect large losses where a=
 small lookup table is insufficient on average.<br><div><br></div><div>I sh=
are the concern on relying on the a peers weak PRNG for packet jumps etc. e=
specially =C2=A0if it is not the same as the crypto PRNG because if that is=
 broken, it doesn=E2=80=99t matter anyway.</div><div><br></div><div>As the =
the 1% number - it is the only real life data we have, but I already argued=
 that the overhead can much higher in low-latency operations with short pac=
kets. It has also been argued that packet number is lower than AEAD because=
 it is shorter, but encrypting 64 bytes AEAD for a message is the same as e=
ncrypting 16 bytes packet number because of instruction level parallelism o=
n current Intel hardware. You can see how the performance increases with da=
ta length in appendix A</div><div><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://softwar=
e.intel.com/sites/default/files/m/d/4/1/d/8/10TB24_Breakthrough_AES_Perform=
ance_with_Intel_AES_New_Instructions.final.secure.pdf">https://software.int=
el.com/sites/default/files/m/d/4/1/d/8/10TB24_Breakthrough_AES_Performance_=
with_Intel_AES_New_Instructions.final.secure.pdf</a></div><div><br></div><d=
iv>Mikkel</div><div><p class=3D"airmail_on">On 9 February 2018 at 07.19.32,=
 Mike Bishop (<a href=3D"mailto:mbishop@evequefou.be">mbishop@evequefou.be<=
/a>) wrote:</p> <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq"><span><div bgc=
olor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div></div><di=
v>






<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:windowtext">You can=E2=80=99t s=
afely reuse the combination of nonce and key, IIUC.=C2=A0 Since key rollove=
r is infrequent, the nonce has to change every packet and be guaranteed uni=
que over the lifetime of, if not the connection,
 at least the current key.=C2=A0 Since packet numbers also don=E2=80=99t re=
peat over the lifetime of the connection, I think using one as the variable=
 part of the other was just taking advantage of the alignment.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:windowtext">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:windowtext">I don=E2=80=99t thi=
nk having a randomized starting value and incrementing is necessarily any b=
etter than exposing the packet number.=C2=A0 Having a PRNG seed established=
 during the handshake and making the visible thing
 the next random output seems potentially interesting, but I=E2=80=99d want=
 our more crypto-minded friends to comment.=C2=A0 I think the real issue wo=
uld be guarantees about never-repeating from the PRNG, particularly as you =
don=E2=80=99t have guarantees about your peer=E2=80=99s implementation.=C2=
=A0
 A defined key derivation and a counter can be verified in the protocol, in=
dependent of how good the peer=E2=80=99s PRNG is.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:windowtext">=C2=A0</span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"color:windowtext">From:</span></b>=
<span style=3D"color:windowtext"> QUIC [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bounc=
es@ietf.org">quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Praveen Balasubramanian<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 8, 2018 9:40 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> huitema &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:huitema@huitema.net">huitema@huite=
ma.net</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Packet number encryption</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:windowtext">Actually taking a s=
tep back what if we don=E2=80=99t we overloaded packet number as the nonce?=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:windowtext">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:windowtext">Can we:</span></p>
<ol style=3D"margin-top:0in" start=3D"1" type=3D"1">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:windowtext">Put packet number as a s=
eparate variable length field in the encrypted portion of the header. This =
allows for growth beyond 64 bits in future and completely avoids ossificati=
on. For short
 lived flows variable length encoding leads to minimal space overhead. </li=
><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:windowtext">Put a separate plaintex=
t nonce which starts out as a secure random number and monotonically increa=
ses as short random jumps (every packet or every few packets) and could the=
n rollover. This
 will prevent linkability and scales to multi-path as well. No major comput=
e overhead. We can also make the nonce optional for crypto algorithms that =
do not need a nonce saving more space.
</li></ol>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:windowtext">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:windowtext">Some MSB of the non=
ce could be used for signaling reorder to the network if needed. I don=E2=
=80=99t have the historical context for overloading of PN as the nonce so p=
ardon me if un-overloading option was discussed
 and ruled out before.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:windowtext">=C2=A0</span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"color:windowtext">From:</span></b>=
<span style=3D"color:windowtext"> QUIC [<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bounces@ietf=
.org">mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Praveen Balasubramanian<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 8, 2018 5:51 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> huitema &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:huitema@huitema.net">huitema@huite=
ma.net</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Packet number encryption</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&gt;&gt; and using separate packet sequences for eac=
h path</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This alone prevents linkability right?</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&gt;&gt; The packet number on each path will start a=
t 1 (or maybe 0 ;-).</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Is supporting multiple paths at the same time a goal=
? If yes, then yes all paths will need to have separate tracking and ACK st=
ate and congestion control etc. I thought this is not part of V1 RFC. If it=
s just one additional path for connection
 migration scenario then all you need is a (random) jump to a offset in pac=
ket number space for the new path so that the few packets in the old path c=
an continue for a little bit. This works with just one ACK space so no impl=
ementation complexity.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&gt;&gt; 2) Or, leaving the packet number in the cle=
ar but using different encryption contexts for each path, and using separat=
e packet sequences for each path.<br>
In addition if the value in the clear was obfuscated with an XOR transform =
it will help prevent ossification. The obfuscation is not meant to guard ag=
ainst later analysis that reveals the packet numbers - why do we care about=
 that. It is meant to grease the
 space and not make the numbers serial so middleboxes cannot assume orderin=
g etc.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">All said if I am alone in being concerned about the =
perf hit then I=E2=80=99d say go on with option 1.
<span style=3D"color:windowtext"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:windowtext">=C2=A0</span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"color:windowtext">From:</span></b>=
<span style=3D"color:windowtext"> QUIC [<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bounces@ietf=
.org">mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Christian Huitema<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 8, 2018 3:54 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Packet number encryption</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p>On 2/8/2018 1:13 PM, Mike Bishop wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">#2 won=E2=80=99t work.=C2=A0 The packet number is an=
 input to the AEAD nonce, so you have to get to the packet number before yo=
u can decrypt the payload.=C2=A0 It can=E2=80=99t be based on anything inte=
rnal to the encrypted packet.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In Martin=E2=80=99s proposal, it=E2=80=99s using a c=
ombination of the encrypted payload (which requires nothing to access) and =
some stored state on each endpoint, which requires only the Connection ID t=
o look up.=C2=A0 You want the thing you XOR by to be constantly
 changing, or it becomes easier to look at sequences of obfuscated packet n=
umbers and start drawing inferences about what the XOR value is.=C2=A0 If o=
verhead is the primary concern, I think there are a couple approaches that =
might allow you to precompute values
 and amortize the cost of doing the encryption step.=C2=A0 (At the cost of =
keeping the table of precomputed values, of course.)</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I still think Jana=E2=80=99s pushing in the right di=
rection here:=C2=A0 Let=E2=80=99s agree on goals, and then see if we can cr=
aft a design that meets those goals.=C2=A0 I hear you saying that low overh=
ead is a goal, which I think we can all agree on.=C2=A0 I also think
 I hear you saying that 1-1.5% overhead is too high, but it sounds like the=
re=E2=80=99s less agreement on that.=C2=A0 You also raise an interesting po=
int that some clients will care less about linkability because they will ne=
ver intentionally migrate.</p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
I think Victor said it best, &quot;Obfuscation is just encryption done poor=
ly.&quot; Either we encrypt, or we don&#39;t. But there is no such thing as=
 an obfuscation middle-ground. Obfuscation would just be a speed bump, easi=
ly broken. It won&#39;t provide privacy, and it won&#39;t
 prevent linkability.<br>
<br>
As far as I am concerned, there are only two designs that prevent linkabili=
ty:<br>
<br>
1) Martin&#39;s PR, in which the packet number is encrypted using sensible =
crypto;<br>
<br>
2) Or, leaving the packet number in the clear but using different encryptio=
n contexts for each path, and using separate packet sequences for each path=
.<br>
<br>
The second option requires more computation when explicitly setting up a ne=
w path. The connection ID would be used as part of the &quot;salt&quot; whe=
n deriving connection contexts. The packet number on each path will start a=
t 1 (or maybe 0 ;-). This requires maintaining
 separate SACK dashboards for each path/Connection-ID, and constraining ACK=
 to be per/path, or alternatively adding a PATH-ACK frame that indicates th=
e path for which packets are acked.<br>
<br>
The pros and cons of the two options are easy to get:<br>
<br>
1) Option 2 does not require the cost of encrypting every packet, thus per =
packet processing will be maybe 1% faster than option 1.
<br>
<br>
2) Option 2 requires computing encryption contexts for each path, which is =
more complex than option 1, but the cost will be amortized over the duratio=
n of the path.<br>
<br>
3) Option 2 requires more complex data structures and ACK management, thus =
increasing the chances that something goes wrong.<br>
<br>
4) Option 2 does nothing against packet number ossification. The packet num=
ber effectively becomes part of the invariants.<br>
<br>
In short, the only advantage of option 2 is to avoid a single symmetric enc=
ryption operation per packet, while making the code significantly more comp=
lex, and at the cost of not protecting against PN ossification. The way I s=
ee that, there is hardly any debate.<br>
<br>
-- Christian Huitema</p>
</div>


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From: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
To: =?utf-8?B?TWlra2VsIEZhaG7DuGUgSsO4cmdlbnNlbg==?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>, Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
Subject: RE: Packet number encryption
Thread-Topic: Packet number encryption
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From: Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>
To: "De Schepper, Koen (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" <koen.de_schepper@nokia-bell-labs.com>, "ekinnear@apple.com" <ekinnear@apple.com>
CC: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>, "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, "Ingemar Johansson S" <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>
Subject: RE: ECN in QUIC connection migration
Thread-Topic: ECN in QUIC connection migration
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Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 07:34:46 +0000
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Subject: RE: Packet number encryption
To: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>, Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>,  "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
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--001a1140d9444e0bc40564c2b077
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Why does the peer=E2=80=99s PRNG matter? The peer uses a different PN space=
. The
jumps are completely determined by the sender as needed and its just to
prevent ossification of assuming that nonce always increments by 1.

Because linkability goes both ways.

--001a1140d9444e0bc40564c2b077
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<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div> <div><blo=
ckquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Ari=
al;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:no=
rmal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:=
none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span><div><span style=3D"color:r=
gb(0,0,0);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:14.666666984558105px;fon=
t-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:n=
ormal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:norm=
al;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:in=
line!important">Why does the peer=E2=80=99s PRNG matter? The peer uses a di=
fferent PN space. The jumps are completely determined by the sender as need=
ed and its just to prevent ossification of assuming that nonce always incre=
ments by 1.</span></div></span></blockquote></div><p>Because linkability go=
es both ways.</p><div></div></body></html>

--001a1140d9444e0bc40564c2b077--


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Subject: RE: Packet number encryption
To: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>, Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>,  "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
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--001a113520ee86a2c10564c2c873
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On 9 February 2018 at 08.26.02, Praveen Balasubramanian (pravb@microsoft.com)
wrote:

 If non-repeating nonce is needed with that probability then we will need
much larger nonce since 10 Gbps+ rates are common in the datacenter. A
nonce can simply be generated using PRNG.

It is decided by the lifetime of the key, not the bandwidth. The lifetime
is typically limited to about 2^32 bytes because AES-GCM says so though
other ciphers could allow for more.

The nonce can be generated by a PRNG, but incidentally a solid PRNG is
often implemented by encrypting a counter, so we are back to square one,
only now using more space and crypto.

--001a113520ee86a2c10564c2c873
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<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">On 9 February 2018 a=
t 08.26.02, Praveen Balasubramanian (<a href=3D"mailto:pravb@microsoft.com"=
>pravb@microsoft.com</a>) wrote:</div> <div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=
=3D"clean_bq" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;font-styl=
e:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;=
text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;wor=
d-spacing:0px"><span><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Calib=
ri,sans-serif;font-size:14.666666984558105px;font-style:normal;font-variant=
-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text=
-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;backgro=
und-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline!important"><span class=
=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>If non-repeating nonce is needed wi=
th that probability then we will need much larger nonce since 10 Gbps+ rate=
s are common in the datacenter. A nonce can simply be generated using PRNG.=
<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span></div></span></bl=
ockquote></div><p>It is decided by the lifetime of the key, not the bandwid=
th. The lifetime is typically limited to about 2^32 bytes because AES-GCM s=
ays so though other ciphers could allow for more.</p><p>The nonce can be ge=
nerated by a PRNG, but incidentally a solid PRNG is often implemented by en=
crypting a counter, so we are back to square one, only now using more space=
 and crypto.</p><div></div></body></html>

--001a113520ee86a2c10564c2c873--


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Subject: RE: Packet number encryption
To: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>, Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>,  "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
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--001a1144b828232efc0564c344bd
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
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The lifetime is typically limited to about 2^32 bytes because AES-GCM says
so though

There is a limit in bytes per packet as well, but I actually I meant to say
2^32 invocations, i.e. distinct packets and nonces based on NIST
requirements, FWTW. IETF TLS requires IV=E2=80=99s (aka nonce) to be unique=
 whereas
NIST allows for random IV but it must then use 96 bits and still not exceed
2^32 invocations.

Since IETF does not permit reuse, that random construct is out, and it
would also be using too much space.

http://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/Legacy/SP/nistspecialpublication800-38d.pd=
f

--001a1144b828232efc0564c344bd
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq" style=3D"font-family:H=
elvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;fo=
nt-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;tex=
t-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span><div><span styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:&quot;helvetica Neue&quot;,helvetica;font=
-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;le=
tter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;wh=
ite-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:n=
one;display:inline!important">The lifetime is typically limited to about 2^=
32 bytes because AES-GCM says so though<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space=
">=C2=A0</span></span></div></span></blockquote></div><p>There is a limit i=
n bytes per packet as well, but I actually I meant to say 2^32 invocations,=
 i.e. distinct packets and nonces based on NIST requirements, FWTW. IETF TL=
S requires IV=E2=80=99s (aka nonce) to be unique whereas NIST allows for ra=
ndom IV but it must then use 96 bits and still not exceed 2^32 invocations.=
</p></div><p>Since IETF does not permit reuse, that random construct is out=
, and it would also be using too much space.</p><p><a href=3D"http://nvlpub=
s.nist.gov/nistpubs/Legacy/SP/nistspecialpublication800-38d.pdf">http://nvl=
pubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/Legacy/SP/nistspecialpublication800-38d.pdf</a></p><=
div></div></body></html>

--001a1144b828232efc0564c344bd--


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To: "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>
From: Lingmo Zhu <zlm2006@gmail.com>
Subject: Questions about Version Negotiation Concerning Possible Handshake Interruption
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Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 17:34:29 +0800
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Hi

I'm new to QUIC and not sure if that could be considered but for Version 
Negotiation with the same connection ID as Initial packet, client should 
choose an acceptable version from the list. What if spoofing from 
something like router happens? Should mitigations be considered, such as 
adding a delay for validated Version Negotiation handling so that 
following handshake packets could be received later and that fake 
Version Negotiation could be ignored?

Such concerning is just come out from DNS hijacking which is partially 
similar, though for QUIC it would only interrupt the handshake. I'm not 
sure but it might be used by downgrade attack in the future. Of course 
I'm new to this field so my opinion would be wrong.

Thanks.

Lingmo Zhu


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From: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 21:08:46 +1100
Message-ID: <CABkgnnU2HWMwTdiFUdDqJDCYOY0c-q_kzs36TUMu7GmD0N+bYg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Review of QCRAM
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I have implemented QCRAM and have a few things to comment on.

My implementation is here:
  https://github.com/martinthomson/minhq/tree/master/hc

This is my first attempt at go, so this took a little longer than it might have
otherwise. Test coverage is still a little light, though go thinks that I have
pretty good coverage. There's probably still a lot to go on the corner cases,
but I think that I've done enough to get an idea for the complexity bump.

I started by implementing HPACK, which is surprisingly easy if you don't care
about being efficient. Though I knew that I was going to add QCRAM, I made only
minimal design concessions when building HPACK.

Building QCRAM on top of HPACK took at least 50% more than just doing HPACK (at
a guess, HPACK took about 10-12 hours, QCRAM took closer to 20). Even though
you can reuse Huffman coding and most of the primitives, retrofitting it was
tricky. My lack of familiarity with go definitely contributed a lot to that,
but I'd say that QCRAM is more difficult to implement than it seems in theory.

I didn't implement QCRAM entirely as specified. There are a few things that
I'll describe below that would make it either better or easier to implement (or
both).


# Separate Stream Roles

There are actually three streams of data that are of interest, and there is no
clarity about those streams.

1. I suggest that we use unidirectional streams in each direction for table
updates.

2. A separate stream for acknowledgments ensures that the encoder can consume
that separately to the decoder.

3. Request/response streams. I think that we all understand these.

These can be separate from the hq control stream, and they should be. Rather
than pick a specific stream number, we should add a header for these streams
that will allow them to be identified clearly. If we do that, add strict rules
about cardinality.

# Define Framing More Clearly

The definition of the framing that is used on the control stream is unclear. I
assume that the intent is to use HEADERS frames, but I'm only really guessing.
If you take my suggestion for separate framing, then you can use very different
logic for the different streams.

Honestly, the overhead of framing is excessive for anything but
request/response streams. I found that framing on the control stream wasn't
necessary at all. This might depend on implementation strategy, because it
might be easier to collect a framed thing than it is to read until you are
blocked, then pickle that state so that you can go back to something else. In
my implementation I hold state on the stack, so it's pretty easy.

Also, it should suffice to have just a stream of varints indicating
acknowledgments. Duplicates can be used to acknowledge multiple header blocks
on the same stream in order.

# Split the Instruction Space

Having to check that only certain instructions appear on different streams is
annoying to implement and a waste of bits. Define two separate spaces. That
should make things much simpler: there are exactly two instructions in each
space then (leaving aside acknowledgments, which I will cover below).

# Base in Every HEADERS Frame

Base (the number of inserts in the table at the start of a header block) seems
to be required for all HEADERS frames, including both table modification and
request/response streams.  But...

# Base on the Table Update Stream

You don't need base for table updates. It is more of a hazard than a help. It
is easier if you treat indexing on the table update stream as in HPACK where
each insert moves the reference point for the next insertion.

# Remove BLOCKING

The BLOCKING flag complicates the design unnecessarily. As a fixed overhead,
pay the extra byte always. Furthermore, the table update stream will never need
to use depends, so that further motivates having different instruction sets
(and formats) for different streams.  And you don't need it...

# Base and the Static Table

It is not explained at all that the base is applied to the dynamic table only.
That is, index 1 is a straight index into the static table and that index 62
will use the current number of inserts and the base to determine the actual
index into the dynamic table (this is the first table entry only when the
number of table inserts and base are the same, if the base is smaller, then it
will be further along the table).

To be clear, my logic for finding entries is:

    if i == 0: error
    if i <= len(staticTable): return staticTable[i-1]
    delta = tableBase - base
    if delta < 0: error
    return dynamicTable[i - len(staticTable) - 1 + delta]

# Remove Depends

Depends is useless. I did not implement it. Base is sufficient.

This follows from preferring to use the smallest value for base possible. Doing
that also keeps table references as small as possible. (Because references are
counted in the opposite direction to base, a larger base means larger
references.)

The cost is that you have to do a two pass check: the first to find the newest
reference, the second to write out the header block. I find that it's basically
necessary to do two passes anyway: on the first I write out the table updates,
on the second I write the header block. During that phase you want to do
lookups anyway, so you can save the largest base from that pass. Also, when you
insert anything, that tends to set the base, so it's pretty easy overall.

# Tracking ACKs is Harder Than It Seems

There are multiple header blocks per stream, and ACKs only identify the stream.
You can't just store a stream reference (or Request-ID) against each header
block, you have to store a tuple of stream and header block index. This needs
to be explained somewhere.

I decided to externalize ACKs - the QCRAM encoder takes a generic blob as input
when it encodes a header block and the same generic blob to acknowledge it. The
caller then has to combine stream ID and header block index in a sensible
fashion.

# Acknowledge Dmitry

So I don't forget... Dmitry did a lot of work on the design team.

# Dynamic Table Overhead

The draft has a TODO about overhead for each dynamic entry. I added a field to
every entry that allows it to know its own position in the table, but that is a
simplification/optimization, and you don't really need that. The other
per-record overheads are all the same for the decoder, with a small increase to
the fixed overhead. It's a little more state for an encoder, but that is mostly
because of having to track usage.

I don't think that we need to change from a 32 byte overhead. This decision
could reduce code complexity in shared QCRAM/HPACK implementations (in my
implementation it would).

# Duplication Doesn't Need to Reference the Static Table

Duplication only makes sense for dynamic entries and yet the index is (I
assume), the normal table index. That is highly suboptimal. This is worse
because the prefix is only 5 bits for this instruction (up to 62 values), which
leads to the encoding taking an extra byte always. If you take my suggestion
for separate instruction spaces, this is better, but still not as good as a
direct index into the dynamic table, starting at 0. Better yet would be a
reverse index, starting from the end of the table, because duplication often
needs to refer to the end of the table.

# Need Better Advice on Referencing strategy

Referencing entries near the end of the table in a new header block is
hazardous. If you just compress as you do in HPACK, you can end up pinning
entries in the header table, making it impossible to add new entries. Thus, you
have to stop referencing entries as they get nearer to the table capacity
limit.

In my implementation I added a threshold variable that governs my referencing
strategy. A portion of the header table space is marked as being off-limits for
header block usage. The encoder duplicates those entries if it wants to
compress, but won't reference them. If the table is under pressure from the new
header fields being added, then it should be able to advance by at least this
amount every round trip.

This is a simple strategy, and probably suboptimal in various ways, but it
seems to work out. For instance, I continuously update the cutoff as entries
are inserted, so that a header block might end up referencing things that get
pushed into this space by later header fields.

You can imagine more advanced techniques. For instance, you might tune this
window automatically based on the rate that the header table grows. Because
references in that window block eviction, it should be sized to the rate of
*desired* growth in the header table over a round trip. Taking a running
estimate of that desired growth and allowing a margin for variance could
produce the right value. I haven't experimented with this.


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Subject: Re: Questions about Version Negotiation Concerning Possible Handshake Interruption
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--001a113520eec24a150564c4bced
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

> What if spoofing from
something like router happens?

There are integrity checks in place to protect against false packets:
https://quicwg.github.io/base-drafts/draft-ietf-quic-transport.html#version-validation

A false version negotiation packet could also just confuse and interrupt an
existing handshake, but this can also happen in other ways including
handling of retry packets. The general consensus seems to be that you
cannot really prevent on path attacks that wants to disrupt a handshake. I
believe more could be done to prevent off-path attacks, but the spec
changes frequently in this area. For example, if a stateless retry packet
does not reflect the clients connection ID, a third party could send a
retry packet which might not be accepted but could still cause a lot of
confusion, and it would be an off path attack to the extend the receivers
port and address can be guessed.

--001a113520eec24a150564c4bced
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">&gt;=C2=A0<span styl=
e=3D"font-family:&quot;helvetica Neue&quot;,helvetica;font-size:14px">What =
if spoofing from</span><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;helvetica Neue&quot=
;,helvetica;font-size:14px">=C2=A0</span></div><span style=3D"font-family:&=
quot;helvetica Neue&quot;,helvetica;font-size:14px">something like router h=
appens?</span><div><font face=3D"helvetica Neue, helvetica"><span style=3D"=
font-size:14px"><br></span></font></div><div><font face=3D"helvetica Neue, =
helvetica"><span style=3D"font-size:14px">There are integrity checks in=C2=
=A0place to=C2=A0protect against false packets:</span></font></div><div><a =
href=3D"https://quicwg.github.io/base-drafts/draft-ietf-quic-transport.html=
#version-validation">https://quicwg.github.io/base-drafts/draft-ietf-quic-t=
ransport.html#version-validation</a></div><div><br><div>A false version neg=
otiation packet could also just confuse and interrupt an existing handshake=
, but this can also happen in other ways including handling of retry packet=
s. The general consensus seems to be that you cannot really prevent on path=
 attacks that wants to disrupt a handshake. I believe more could be done to=
 prevent off-path attacks, but the spec changes frequently in this area. Fo=
r example, if a stateless retry packet does not reflect the clients connect=
ion ID, a third party could send a retry packet which might not be accepted=
 but could still cause a lot of confusion, and it would be an off path atta=
ck to the extend the receivers port and address can be guessed.</div></div>=
</body></html>

--001a113520eec24a150564c4bced--


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From: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 21:11:08 +1100
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Subject: Re: Questions about Version Negotiation Concerning Possible Handshake Interruption
To: Lingmo Zhu <zlm2006@gmail.com>
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Any spoofed version negotiation packet will be detected once the
handshake completes: the server is required to include its list of
supported versions in the TLS handshake.  See the link Mikkel provided
for details.

On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 8:34 PM, Lingmo Zhu <zlm2006@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi
>
> I'm new to QUIC and not sure if that could be considered but for Version
> Negotiation with the same connection ID as Initial packet, client should
> choose an acceptable version from the list. What if spoofing from something
> like router happens? Should mitigations be considered, such as adding a
> delay for validated Version Negotiation handling so that following handshake
> packets could be received later and that fake Version Negotiation could be
> ignored?
>
> Such concerning is just come out from DNS hijacking which is partially
> similar, though for QUIC it would only interrupt the handshake. I'm not sure
> but it might be used by downgrade attack in the future. Of course I'm new to
> this field so my opinion would be wrong.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Lingmo Zhu
>


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Subject: Re: Questions about Version Negotiation Concerning Possible Handshake Interruption
To: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>, Lingmo Zhu <zlm2006@gmail.com>
Cc: "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>
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--f403045d914c2c26170564c4e9ab
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A possible attack scenario:

A server cluster accepts version X and version Y, and sends {X, Y} in VNEG
message if it sees any other requested version.
Except: the cluster also accepts version X_old to deal with hard to upgrade
baby alarms. It never announces X_old in VNEG but it will accept it if
proposed by the client.

Middleware now tries to inject X_old in version negotiation to convince the
client to use that version in instead of version X the client would
normally use. If VNEG wins the handshake race, X_old is now triggered.

But the cluster knows that it would never have proposed X_old so if the
client does verify properly, the handshake should fail.

What I=E2=80=99m not sure about is if the current logic actually supports a=
 case
were X_old is accepted if volunteered, but never when negotiated.


Kind Regards,
Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen


On 9 February 2018 at 11.11.13, Martin Thomson (martin.thomson@gmail.com)
wrote:

Any spoofed version negotiation packet will be detected once the
handshake completes: the server is required to include its list of
supported versions in the TLS handshake. See the link Mikkel provided
for details.

On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 8:34 PM, Lingmo Zhu <zlm2006@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi
>
> I'm new to QUIC and not sure if that could be considered but for Version
> Negotiation with the same connection ID as Initial packet, client should
> choose an acceptable version from the list. What if spoofing from
something
> like router happens? Should mitigations be considered, such as adding a
> delay for validated Version Negotiation handling so that following
handshake
> packets could be received later and that fake Version Negotiation could
be
> ignored?
>
> Such concerning is just come out from DNS hijacking which is partially
> similar, though for QUIC it would only interrupt the handshake. I'm not
sure
> but it might be used by downgrade attack in the future. Of course I'm new
to
> this field so my opinion would be wrong.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Lingmo Zhu
>

--f403045d914c2c26170564c4e9ab
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<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">A possible attack sc=
enario:</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Ar=
ial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br><=
/div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font=
-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">A server clus=
ter accepts version X and version Y, and sends {X, Y} in VNEG message if it=
 sees any other requested version.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin=
:0px;line-height:auto">Except: the cluster also accepts version X_old to de=
al with hard to upgrade baby alarms. It never announces X_old in VNEG but i=
t will accept it if proposed by the client.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfon=
t" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0=
);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin=
:0px;line-height:auto">Middleware now tries to inject X_old in version nego=
tiation to convince the client to use that version in instead of version X =
the client would normally use. If VNEG wins the handshake race, X_old is no=
w triggered.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helveti=
ca,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">=
<br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial=
;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">But the =
cluster knows that it would never have proposed X_old so if the client does=
 verify properly, the handshake should fail.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfo=
nt" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.=
0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" styl=
e=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margi=
n:0px;line-height:auto">What I=E2=80=99m not sure about is if the current l=
ogic actually supports a case were X_old is accepted if volunteered, but ne=
ver when negotiated.</div> <div><br></div><br> <div id=3D"bloop_sign_151817=
1437664453120" class=3D"bloop_sign"><div style=3D"font-family:helvetica,ari=
al;font-size:13px">Kind Regards,</div><div style=3D"font-family:helvetica,a=
rial;font-size:13px">Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen<br><br></div></div> =
<br><p class=3D"airmail_on">On 9 February 2018 at 11.11.13, Martin Thomson =
(<a href=3D"mailto:martin.thomson@gmail.com">martin.thomson@gmail.com</a>) =
wrote:</p> <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq"><span><div><div></d=
iv><div>Any spoofed version negotiation packet will be detected once the
<br>handshake completes: the server is required to include its list of
<br>supported versions in the TLS handshake.  See the link Mikkel provided
<br>for details.
<br>
<br>On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 8:34 PM, Lingmo Zhu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zlm200=
6@gmail.com">zlm2006@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:
<br>&gt; Hi
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; I&#39;m new to QUIC and not sure if that could be considered but f=
or Version
<br>&gt; Negotiation with the same connection ID as Initial packet, client =
should
<br>&gt; choose an acceptable version from the list. What if spoofing from =
something
<br>&gt; like router happens? Should mitigations be considered, such as add=
ing a
<br>&gt; delay for validated Version Negotiation handling so that following=
 handshake
<br>&gt; packets could be received later and that fake Version Negotiation =
could be
<br>&gt; ignored?
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; Such concerning is just come out from DNS hijacking which is parti=
ally
<br>&gt; similar, though for QUIC it would only interrupt the handshake. I&=
#39;m not sure
<br>&gt; but it might be used by downgrade attack in the future. Of course =
I&#39;m new to
<br>&gt; this field so my opinion would be wrong.
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; Thanks.
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; Lingmo Zhu
<br>&gt;
<br>
<br></div></div></span></blockquote></body></html>

--f403045d914c2c26170564c4e9ab--


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Subject: Re: Questions about Version Negotiation Concerning Possible Handshake Interruption
To: =?UTF-8?Q?Mikkel_Fahn=c3=b8e_J=c3=b8rgensen?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
Cc: "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>
References: <1d386744-c46a-842a-b172-24e290e03668@gmail.com> <CABkgnnVRn+1sNZQFB8BZc4VyzN5usLmYJ3xLo+p2uTeW_0Ji_Q@mail.gmail.com> <CAN1APdfpJ0rYPPiOgfcdDRx3noh+YYvJatP0MYTqRRXMBwF6pA@mail.gmail.com>
From: Lingmo Zhu <zlm2006@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3d558827-f2a7-877c-e00a-d6a22ef241c5@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 19:19:45 +0800
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Thank you for the clarification. I admit that downgrade attack could be 
hard to imagine. In fact what I really concerned is some scenario like:

The client accepts version set X and the server cluster accepts some 
versions in X, so handshake should go well. But middle box tries to send 
VNEG with a version list excluding X. If VNEG wins, handshake could be 
aborted.

In that scenario, HTTP could fall back to TCP and be interrupted simply 
by RST. TBH I just hope QUIC could not be easily interrupted. I'm not 
sure if such corner case should be considered.


On 2018/02/09 18:22, Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen wrote:
> A possible attack scenario:
>
> A server cluster accepts version X and version Y, and sends {X, Y} in 
> VNEG message if it sees any other requested version.
> Except: the cluster also accepts version X_old to deal with hard to 
> upgrade baby alarms. It never announces X_old in VNEG but it will 
> accept it if proposed by the client.
>
> Middleware now tries to inject X_old in version negotiation to 
> convince the client to use that version in instead of version X the 
> client would normally use. If VNEG wins the handshake race, X_old is 
> now triggered.
>
> But the cluster knows that it would never have proposed X_old so if 
> the client does verify properly, the handshake should fail.
>
> What I’m not sure about is if the current logic actually supports a 
> case were X_old is accepted if volunteered, but never when negotiated.
>
>
> Kind Regards,
> Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen
>
>
> On 9 February 2018 at 11.11.13, Martin Thomson 
> (martin.thomson@gmail.com <mailto:martin.thomson@gmail.com>) wrote:
>
>> Any spoofed version negotiation packet will be detected once the
>> handshake completes: the server is required to include its list of
>> supported versions in the TLS handshake. See the link Mikkel provided
>> for details.
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 8:34 PM, Lingmo Zhu <zlm2006@gmail.com 
>> <mailto:zlm2006@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> > Hi
>> >
>> > I'm new to QUIC and not sure if that could be considered but for 
>> Version
>> > Negotiation with the same connection ID as Initial packet, client 
>> should
>> > choose an acceptable version from the list. What if spoofing from 
>> something
>> > like router happens? Should mitigations be considered, such as 
>> adding a
>> > delay for validated Version Negotiation handling so that following 
>> handshake
>> > packets could be received later and that fake Version Negotiation 
>> could be
>> > ignored?
>> >
>> > Such concerning is just come out from DNS hijacking which is partially
>> > similar, though for QUIC it would only interrupt the handshake. I'm 
>> not sure
>> > but it might be used by downgrade attack in the future. Of course 
>> I'm new to
>> > this field so my opinion would be wrong.
>> >
>> > Thanks.
>> >
>> > Lingmo Zhu
>> >
>>


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<html>
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    <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
  </head>
  <body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
    <p>Thank you for the clarification. I admit that downgrade attack
      could be hard to imagine. In fact what I really concerned is some
      scenario like:</p>
    <p>The client accepts version set X and the server cluster accepts
      some versions in X, so handshake should go well. But middle box
      tries to send VNEG with a version list excluding X. If VNEG wins,
      handshake could be aborted.</p>
    <p>In that scenario, HTTP could fall back to TCP and be interrupted
      simply by RST. TBH I just hope QUIC could not be easily
      interrupted. I'm not sure if such corner case should be
      considered.<br>
    </p>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2018/02/09 18:22, Mikkel Fahnøe
      Jørgensen wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAN1APdfpJ0rYPPiOgfcdDRx3noh+YYvJatP0MYTqRRXMBwF6pA@mail.gmail.com">
      <style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>
      <div id="bloop_customfont"
style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">A
        possible attack scenario:</div>
      <div id="bloop_customfont"
style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br>
      </div>
      <div id="bloop_customfont"
style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">A
        server cluster accepts version X and version Y, and sends {X, Y}
        in VNEG message if it sees any other requested version.</div>
      <div id="bloop_customfont"
style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">Except:
        the cluster also accepts version X_old to deal with hard to
        upgrade baby alarms. It never announces X_old in VNEG but it
        will accept it if proposed by the client.</div>
      <div id="bloop_customfont"
style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br>
      </div>
      <div id="bloop_customfont"
style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">Middleware
        now tries to inject X_old in version negotiation to convince the
        client to use that version in instead of version X the client
        would normally use. If VNEG wins the handshake race, X_old is
        now triggered.</div>
      <div id="bloop_customfont"
style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br>
      </div>
      <div id="bloop_customfont"
style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">But
        the cluster knows that it would never have proposed X_old so if
        the client does verify properly, the handshake should fail.</div>
      <div id="bloop_customfont"
style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br>
      </div>
      <div id="bloop_customfont"
style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">What
        I’m not sure about is if the current logic actually supports a
        case were X_old is accepted if volunteered, but never when
        negotiated.</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <br>
      <div id="bloop_sign_1518171437664453120" class="bloop_sign">
        <div style="font-family:helvetica,arial;font-size:13px">Kind
          Regards,</div>
        <div style="font-family:helvetica,arial;font-size:13px">Mikkel
          Fahnøe Jørgensen<br>
          <br>
        </div>
      </div>
      <br>
      <p class="airmail_on">On 9 February 2018 at 11.11.13, Martin
        Thomson (<a href="mailto:martin.thomson@gmail.com"
          moz-do-not-send="true">martin.thomson@gmail.com</a>) wrote:</p>
      <blockquote type="cite" class="clean_bq"><span>
          <div>
            <div>Any spoofed version negotiation packet will be detected
              once the
              <br>
              handshake completes: the server is required to include its
              list of
              <br>
              supported versions in the TLS handshake. See the link
              Mikkel provided
              <br>
              for details.
              <br>
              <br>
              On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 8:34 PM, Lingmo Zhu &lt;<a
                href="mailto:zlm2006@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true">zlm2006@gmail.com</a>&gt;
              wrote:
              <br>
              &gt; Hi
              <br>
              &gt;
              <br>
              &gt; I'm new to QUIC and not sure if that could be
              considered but for Version
              <br>
              &gt; Negotiation with the same connection ID as Initial
              packet, client should
              <br>
              &gt; choose an acceptable version from the list. What if
              spoofing from something
              <br>
              &gt; like router happens? Should mitigations be
              considered, such as adding a
              <br>
              &gt; delay for validated Version Negotiation handling so
              that following handshake
              <br>
              &gt; packets could be received later and that fake Version
              Negotiation could be
              <br>
              &gt; ignored?
              <br>
              &gt;
              <br>
              &gt; Such concerning is just come out from DNS hijacking
              which is partially
              <br>
              &gt; similar, though for QUIC it would only interrupt the
              handshake. I'm not sure
              <br>
              &gt; but it might be used by downgrade attack in the
              future. Of course I'm new to
              <br>
              &gt; this field so my opinion would be wrong.
              <br>
              &gt;
              <br>
              &gt; Thanks.
              <br>
              &gt;
              <br>
              &gt; Lingmo Zhu
              <br>
              &gt;
              <br>
              <br>
            </div>
          </div>
        </span></blockquote>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

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Subject: Re: Questions about Version Negotiation Concerning Possible Handshake Interruption
To: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>, Lingmo Zhu <zlm2006@gmail.com>
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For the TCP fallback case, this is higher level protocol specific. For
HTTP/QUIC v1 I believe there is a requirement to not fall back to anything
there is a requirement to below TLS 1.3.

But it is a valid concern.

Kind Regards,
Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen


On 9 February 2018 at 12.19.50, Lingmo Zhu (zlm2006@gmail.com) wrote:

Thank you for the clarification. I admit that downgrade attack could be
hard to imagine. In fact what I really concerned is some scenario like:

The client accepts version set X and the server cluster accepts some
versions in X, so handshake should go well. But middle box tries to send
VNEG with a version list excluding X. If VNEG wins, handshake could be
aborted.

In that scenario, HTTP could fall back to TCP and be interrupted simply by
RST. TBH I just hope QUIC could not be easily interrupted. I'm not sure if
such corner case should be considered.

On 2018/02/09 18:22, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen wrote:

A possible attack scenario:

A server cluster accepts version X and version Y, and sends {X, Y} in VNEG
message if it sees any other requested version.
Except: the cluster also accepts version X_old to deal with hard to upgrade
baby alarms. It never announces X_old in VNEG but it will accept it if
proposed by the client.

Middleware now tries to inject X_old in version negotiation to convince the
client to use that version in instead of version X the client would
normally use. If VNEG wins the handshake race, X_old is now triggered.

But the cluster knows that it would never have proposed X_old so if the
client does verify properly, the handshake should fail.

What I=E2=80=99m not sure about is if the current logic actually supports a=
 case
were X_old is accepted if volunteered, but never when negotiated.


Kind Regards,
Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen


On 9 February 2018 at 11.11.13, Martin Thomson (martin.thomson@gmail.com)
wrote:

Any spoofed version negotiation packet will be detected once the
handshake completes: the server is required to include its list of
supported versions in the TLS handshake. See the link Mikkel provided
for details.

On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 8:34 PM, Lingmo Zhu <zlm2006@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi
>
> I'm new to QUIC and not sure if that could be considered but for Version
> Negotiation with the same connection ID as Initial packet, client should
> choose an acceptable version from the list. What if spoofing from
something
> like router happens? Should mitigations be considered, such as adding a
> delay for validated Version Negotiation handling so that following
handshake
> packets could be received later and that fake Version Negotiation could b=
e
> ignored?
>
> Such concerning is just come out from DNS hijacking which is partially
> similar, though for QUIC it would only interrupt the handshake. I'm not
sure
> but it might be used by downgrade attack in the future. Of course I'm new
to
> this field so my opinion would be wrong.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Lingmo Zhu
>

--f403045d914ce45afe0564c5c01c
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">For the TCP fallback=
 case, this is higher level protocol specific. For HTTP/QUIC v1 I believe t=
here is a requirement to not fall back to anything there is a requirement t=
o below TLS 1.3.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Hel=
vetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:au=
to"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,A=
rial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">But =
it is a valid concern.</div> <br> <div id=3D"bloop_sign_1518175277392662016=
" class=3D"bloop_sign"><div style=3D"font-family:helvetica,arial;font-size:=
13px">Kind Regards,</div><div style=3D"font-family:helvetica,arial;font-siz=
e:13px">Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen<br><br></div></div> <br><p class=
=3D"airmail_on">On 9 February 2018 at 12.19.50, Lingmo Zhu (<a href=3D"mail=
to:zlm2006@gmail.com">zlm2006@gmail.com</a>) wrote:</p> <blockquote type=3D=
"cite" class=3D"clean_bq"><span><div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><=
div></div><div>



<title></title>


<p>Thank you for the clarification. I admit that downgrade attack
could be hard to imagine. In fact what I really concerned is some
scenario like:</p>
<p>The client accepts version set X and the server cluster accepts
some versions in X, so handshake should go well. But middle box
tries to send VNEG with a version list excluding X. If VNEG wins,
handshake could be aborted.</p>
<p>In that scenario, HTTP could fall back to TCP and be interrupted
simply by RST. TBH I just hope QUIC could not be easily
interrupted. I&#39;m not sure if such corner case should be
considered.<br></p>
<br>
<div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">On 2018/02/09 18:22, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e
J=C3=B8rgensen wrote:<br></div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" cite=3D"mid:CAN1APdfpJ0rYPPiOgfcdDRx3noh+YYvJatP0=
MYTqRRXMBwF6pA@mail.gmail.com">

<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
A possible attack scenario:</div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<br></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
A server cluster accepts version X and version Y, and sends {X, Y}
in VNEG message if it sees any other requested version.</div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
Except: the cluster also accepts version X_old to deal with hard to
upgrade baby alarms. It never announces X_old in VNEG but it will
accept it if proposed by the client.</div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<br></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
Middleware now tries to inject X_old in version negotiation to
convince the client to use that version in instead of version X the
client would normally use. If VNEG wins the handshake race, X_old
is now triggered.</div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<br></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
But the cluster knows that it would never have proposed X_old so if
the client does verify properly, the handshake should fail.</div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<br></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
What I=E2=80=99m not sure about is if the current logic actually supports a
case were X_old is accepted if volunteered, but never when
negotiated.</div>
<div><br></div>
<br>
<div id=3D"bloop_sign_1518171437664453120" class=3D"bloop_sign">
<div style=3D"font-family:helvetica,arial;font-size:13px">Kind
Regards,</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:helvetica,arial;font-size:13px">Mikkel
Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen<br>
<br></div>
</div>
<br>
<p class=3D"airmail_on">On 9 February 2018 at 11.11.13, Martin
Thomson (<a href=3D"mailto:martin.thomson@gmail.com">martin.thomson@gmail.c=
om</a>) wrote:</p>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq">
<div>
<div><span>Any spoofed version negotiation packet will be detected
once the<br>
handshake completes: the server is required to include its list
of<br>
supported versions in the TLS handshake. See the link Mikkel
provided<br>
for details.<br>
<br>
On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 8:34 PM, Lingmo Zhu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zlm2006@gm=
ail.com">zlm2006@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; Hi<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I&#39;m new to QUIC and not sure if that could be considered but
for Version<br>
&gt; Negotiation with the same connection ID as Initial packet,
client should<br>
&gt; choose an acceptable version from the list. What if spoofing
from something<br>
&gt; like router happens? Should mitigations be considered, such as
adding a<br>
&gt; delay for validated Version Negotiation handling so that
following handshake<br>
&gt; packets could be received later and that fake Version
Negotiation could be<br>
&gt; ignored?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Such concerning is just come out from DNS hijacking which is
partially<br>
&gt; similar, though for QUIC it would only interrupt the
handshake. I&#39;m not sure<br>
&gt; but it might be used by downgrade attack in the future. Of
course I&#39;m new to<br>
&gt; this field so my opinion would be wrong.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Thanks.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Lingmo Zhu<br>
&gt;<br>
<br></span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<br>


</div></div></span></blockquote></body></html>

--f403045d914ce45afe0564c5c01c--


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From: Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 20:31:28 +0900
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Subject: Re: Questions about Version Negotiation Concerning Possible Handshake Interruption
To: Lingmo Zhu <zlm2006@gmail.com>
Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Mikkel_Fahn=C3=B8e_J=C3=B8rgensen?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>,  Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>
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2018-02-09 20:19 GMT+09:00 Lingmo Zhu <zlm2006@gmail.com>:
> Thank you for the clarification. I admit that downgrade attack could be h=
ard
> to imagine. In fact what I really concerned is some scenario like:
>
> The client accepts version set X and the server cluster accepts some
> versions in X, so handshake should go well. But middle box tries to send
> VNEG with a version list excluding X. If VNEG wins, handshake could be
> aborted.
>
> In that scenario, HTTP could fall back to TCP and be interrupted simply b=
y
> RST. TBH I just hope QUIC could not be easily interrupted. I'm not sure i=
f
> such corner case should be considered.

I think that this is a valid concern.

QUIC is tolerant to on-path attackers trying to reset the connection,
once the handshake succeeds. We should spend reasonable effort to
achieve tolerance during the handshake as well.

Regarding how to fix the issue, I think the mitigation that Lingmo
suggested in his first post makes sense (i.e. client waits for some
time even after receiving a VERSION_NEGOTIATION packet).

OTOH, I think that we have room for improving version negotiation. In
TLS, client offers multiple versions and server selects one;
therefore, the handshake finishes in minimal round-trips, which is
good for performance and also gives less chance for on-path attacks to
succeed. In QUIC, the server sends a list of versions and let the
client send another unprotected packet. This is both waste of time and
also is more prone to attacks, due to spending an extra round without
protection.

I think we should change the negotiation scheme so that the server can
select the version to use. The hard part of making such change would
be the fact that we need to decouple the TLS version and the QUIC
version, though.


>
>
> On 2018/02/09 18:22, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen wrote:
>
> A possible attack scenario:
>
> A server cluster accepts version X and version Y, and sends {X, Y} in VNE=
G
> message if it sees any other requested version.
> Except: the cluster also accepts version X_old to deal with hard to upgra=
de
> baby alarms. It never announces X_old in VNEG but it will accept it if
> proposed by the client.
>
> Middleware now tries to inject X_old in version negotiation to convince t=
he
> client to use that version in instead of version X the client would norma=
lly
> use. If VNEG wins the handshake race, X_old is now triggered.
>
> But the cluster knows that it would never have proposed X_old so if the
> client does verify properly, the handshake should fail.
>
> What I=E2=80=99m not sure about is if the current logic actually supports=
 a case
> were X_old is accepted if volunteered, but never when negotiated.
>
>
> Kind Regards,
> Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen
>
>
> On 9 February 2018 at 11.11.13, Martin Thomson (martin.thomson@gmail.com)
> wrote:
>
> Any spoofed version negotiation packet will be detected once the
> handshake completes: the server is required to include its list of
> supported versions in the TLS handshake. See the link Mikkel provided
> for details.
>
> On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 8:34 PM, Lingmo Zhu <zlm2006@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi
>>
>> I'm new to QUIC and not sure if that could be considered but for Version
>> Negotiation with the same connection ID as Initial packet, client should
>> choose an acceptable version from the list. What if spoofing from
>> something
>> like router happens? Should mitigations be considered, such as adding a
>> delay for validated Version Negotiation handling so that following
>> handshake
>> packets could be received later and that fake Version Negotiation could =
be
>> ignored?
>>
>> Such concerning is just come out from DNS hijacking which is partially
>> similar, though for QUIC it would only interrupt the handshake. I'm not
>> sure
>> but it might be used by downgrade attack in the future. Of course I'm ne=
w
>> to
>> this field so my opinion would be wrong.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Lingmo Zhu
>>
>
>



--=20
Kazuho Oku


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Subject: Re: Questions about Version Negotiation Concerning Possible Handshake Interruption
To: Lingmo Zhu <zlm2006@gmail.com>, Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>
Cc: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>
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A realistic on-path attack involves a government body that taps optic fiber
at an internet distribution node. The original intention behind the
construct may be to trigger an alarm whenever the string =E2=80=9Cdirty bom=
b=E2=80=9D
appears in a protocol RFC 821 message (such as this one), and subsequently
for logging purposes to monitor traffic directed towards bulk fertiliser
suppliers. It is not possible to drop packets both due to the mechanical
construct, due to legislation, and because it might be too obvious.
However, having a datacenter with optic fibre near said access point gives
excellent insights into early handshakes including IP, port, connection ID,
and possible even a profile of the PRNG being used at some endpoint.

This makes it very simple to spoof and inject packets into handshake with a
good chance of winning any race. More difficult, but possible, it could
also observe packets and inject packets closer to the endpoint, for example
using long distance point to point radio communication to race the ordinary
packet stream.

Any argument about friendly gov is void because the internet travels across
multiple regions that each with near certainty have taps as those described
above making it a prime target in cyber warfare.

The question is then to what extend such a position can be utilised to
interfere with the handshake and what the outcome of such interference
would be, rather than a discussion of how plausible such an attack is,
because it is probably a 99% given if feasible.

--001a1144b8285bf0f20564c63989
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<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">A =
realistic on-path attack involves a government body that taps optic fiber a=
t an internet distribution node. The original intention behind the construc=
t may be to trigger an alarm whenever the string =E2=80=9Cdirty bomb=E2=80=
=9D appears in a protocol RFC 821 message (such as this one), and subsequen=
tly for logging purposes to monitor traffic directed towards bulk fertilise=
r suppliers. It is not possible to drop packets both due to the mechanical =
construct, due to legislation, and because it might be too obvious. However=
, having a datacenter with optic fibre near said access point gives excelle=
nt insights into early handshakes including IP, port, connection ID, and po=
ssible even a profile of the PRNG being used at some endpoint.<div><br></di=
v><div>This makes it very simple to spoof and inject packets into handshake=
 with a good chance of winning any race. More difficult, but possible, it c=
ould also observe packets and inject packets closer to the endpoint, for ex=
ample using long distance point to point radio communication to race the or=
dinary packet stream.</div><div><br></div><div>Any argument about friendly =
gov is void because the internet travels across multiple regions that each =
with near certainty have taps as those described above making it a prime ta=
rget in cyber warfare.</div><div><br></div><div>The question is then to wha=
t extend such a position can be utilised to interfere with the handshake an=
d what the outcome of such interference would be, rather than a discussion =
of how plausible such an attack is, because it is probably a 99% given if f=
easible.</div></body></html>

--001a1144b8285bf0f20564c63989--


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From: "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>
To: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>, =?utf-8?B?TWlra2VsIEZhaG7DuGUgSsO4cmdlbnNlbg==?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>, "Mike Bishop" <mbishop@evequefou.be>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
Thread-Topic: Packet number encryption
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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 05:33:35 -0800
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Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
To: =?UTF-8?Q?Mikkel_Fahn=C3=B8e_J=C3=B8rgensen?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>
Cc: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>, Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>,  "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
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On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 11:22 PM, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen <mikkelf=
j@gmail.com
> wrote:

> You can=E2=80=99t safely reuse the combination of nonce and key, IIUC.  S=
ince key
> rollover is infrequent, the nonce has to change every packet and be
> guaranteed unique over the lifetime of, if not the connection, at least t=
he
> current key.
>
> For CTR mode encryption which AES-GCM is, it is extremely bad to reuse th=
e
> nonce. But it is still permitted if nonce only repeats with very low
> probability, like 2^-32 or so, don=E2=80=99t recall. This means that usin=
g a crypto
> hashed packet numbers as a nonce is an option, but a homegrown obfuscatio=
n
> is not.
>

I'm not sure where you are getting this from. Any nonce reuse at all with
AES-GCM is catastrophic:
http://csrc.nist.gov/groups/ ST/toolkit/BCM/documents/comments/800-38_
Series-Drafts/GCM/Joux_comments.pdf

-Ekr

Mikkel
>
> On 9 February 2018 at 07.19.32, Mike Bishop (mbishop@evequefou.be) wrote:
>
> You can=E2=80=99t safely reuse the combination of nonce and key, IIUC.  S=
ince key
> rollover is infrequent, the nonce has to change every packet and be
> guaranteed unique over the lifetime of, if not the connection, at least t=
he
> current key.  Since packet numbers also don=E2=80=99t repeat over the lif=
etime of
> the connection, I think using one as the variable part of the other was
> just taking advantage of the alignment.
>
>
>
> I don=E2=80=99t think having a randomized starting value and incrementing=
 is
> necessarily any better than exposing the packet number.  Having a PRNG se=
ed
> established during the handshake and making the visible thing the next
> random output seems potentially interesting, but I=E2=80=99d want our mor=
e
> crypto-minded friends to comment.  I think the real issue would be
> guarantees about never-repeating from the PRNG, particularly as you don=
=E2=80=99t
> have guarantees about your peer=E2=80=99s implementation.  A defined key =
derivation
> and a counter can be verified in the protocol, independent of how good th=
e
> peer=E2=80=99s PRNG is.
>
>
>
> *From:* QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Praveen
> Balasubramanian
> *Sent:* Thursday, February 8, 2018 9:40 PM
> *To:* huitema <huitema@huitema.net>; quic@ietf.org
> *Subject:* RE: Packet number encryption
>
>
>
> Actually taking a step back what if we don=E2=80=99t we overloaded packet=
 number
> as the nonce?
>
>
>
> Can we:
>
>    1. Put packet number as a separate variable length field in the
>    encrypted portion of the header. This allows for growth beyond 64 bits=
 in
>    future and completely avoids ossification. For short lived flows varia=
ble
>    length encoding leads to minimal space overhead.
>    2. Put a separate plaintext nonce which starts out as a secure random
>    number and monotonically increases as short random jumps (every packet=
 or
>    every few packets) and could then rollover. This will prevent linkabil=
ity
>    and scales to multi-path as well. No major compute overhead. We can al=
so
>    make the nonce optional for crypto algorithms that do not need a nonce
>    saving more space.
>
>
>
> Some MSB of the nonce could be used for signaling reorder to the network
> if needed. I don=E2=80=99t have the historical context for overloading of=
 PN as the
> nonce so pardon me if un-overloading option was discussed and ruled out
> before.
>
>
>
> *From:* QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org <quic-bounces@ietf.org>] *On
> Behalf Of *Praveen Balasubramanian
> *Sent:* Thursday, February 8, 2018 5:51 PM
> *To:* huitema <huitema@huitema.net>; quic@ietf.org
> *Subject:* RE: Packet number encryption
>
>
>
> >> and using separate packet sequences for each path
>
> This alone prevents linkability right?
>
>
>
> >> The packet number on each path will start at 1 (or maybe 0 ;-).
>
> Is supporting multiple paths at the same time a goal? If yes, then yes al=
l
> paths will need to have separate tracking and ACK state and congestion
> control etc. I thought this is not part of V1 RFC. If its just one
> additional path for connection migration scenario then all you need is a
> (random) jump to a offset in packet number space for the new path so that
> the few packets in the old path can continue for a little bit. This works
> with just one ACK space so no implementation complexity.
>
>
>
> >> 2) Or, leaving the packet number in the clear but using different
> encryption contexts for each path, and using separate packet sequences fo=
r
> each path.
> In addition if the value in the clear was obfuscated with an XOR transfor=
m
> it will help prevent ossification. The obfuscation is not meant to guard
> against later analysis that reveals the packet numbers - why do we care
> about that. It is meant to grease the space and not make the numbers seri=
al
> so middleboxes cannot assume ordering etc.
>
>
>
> All said if I am alone in being concerned about the perf hit then I=E2=80=
=99d say
> go on with option 1.
>
>
>
> *From:* QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org <quic-bounces@ietf.org>] *On
> Behalf Of *Christian Huitema
> *Sent:* Thursday, February 8, 2018 3:54 PM
> *To:* quic@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: Packet number encryption
>
>
>
> On 2/8/2018 1:13 PM, Mike Bishop wrote:
>
> #2 won=E2=80=99t work.  The packet number is an input to the AEAD nonce, =
so you
> have to get to the packet number before you can decrypt the payload.  It
> can=E2=80=99t be based on anything internal to the encrypted packet.
>
>
>
> In Martin=E2=80=99s proposal, it=E2=80=99s using a combination of the enc=
rypted payload
> (which requires nothing to access) and some stored state on each endpoint=
,
> which requires only the Connection ID to look up.  You want the thing you
> XOR by to be constantly changing, or it becomes easier to look at sequenc=
es
> of obfuscated packet numbers and start drawing inferences about what the
> XOR value is.  If overhead is the primary concern, I think there are a
> couple approaches that might allow you to precompute values and amortize
> the cost of doing the encryption step.  (At the cost of keeping the table
> of precomputed values, of course.)
>
>
>
> I still think Jana=E2=80=99s pushing in the right direction here:  Let=E2=
=80=99s agree on
> goals, and then see if we can craft a design that meets those goals.  I
> hear you saying that low overhead is a goal, which I think we can all agr=
ee
> on.  I also think I hear you saying that 1-1.5% overhead is too high, but
> it sounds like there=E2=80=99s less agreement on that.  You also raise an
> interesting point that some clients will care less about linkability
> because they will never intentionally migrate.
>
>
> I think Victor said it best, "Obfuscation is just encryption done poorly.=
"
> Either we encrypt, or we don't. But there is no such thing as an
> obfuscation middle-ground. Obfuscation would just be a speed bump, easily
> broken. It won't provide privacy, and it won't prevent linkability.
>
> As far as I am concerned, there are only two designs that prevent
> linkability:
>
> 1) Martin's PR, in which the packet number is encrypted using sensible
> crypto;
>
> 2) Or, leaving the packet number in the clear but using different
> encryption contexts for each path, and using separate packet sequences fo=
r
> each path.
>
> The second option requires more computation when explicitly setting up a
> new path. The connection ID would be used as part of the "salt" when
> deriving connection contexts. The packet number on each path will start a=
t
> 1 (or maybe 0 ;-). This requires maintaining separate SACK dashboards for
> each path/Connection-ID, and constraining ACK to be per/path, or
> alternatively adding a PATH-ACK frame that indicates the path for which
> packets are acked.
>
> The pros and cons of the two options are easy to get:
>
> 1) Option 2 does not require the cost of encrypting every packet, thus pe=
r
> packet processing will be maybe 1% faster than option 1.
>
> 2) Option 2 requires computing encryption contexts for each path, which i=
s
> more complex than option 1, but the cost will be amortized over the
> duration of the path.
>
> 3) Option 2 requires more complex data structures and ACK management, thu=
s
> increasing the chances that something goes wrong.
>
> 4) Option 2 does nothing against packet number ossification. The packet
> number effectively becomes part of the invariants.
>
> In short, the only advantage of option 2 is to avoid a single symmetric
> encryption operation per packet, while making the code significantly more
> complex, and at the cost of not protecting against PN ossification. The w=
ay
> I see that, there is hardly any debate.
>
> -- Christian Huitema
>
>

--001a11413fc4aedbf00564c795a1
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 11:22 PM, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen <spa=
n dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">m=
ikkelfj@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);=
padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><span class=3D"gmail-=
"><div id=3D"gmail-m_-4603647876781282200bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-fa=
mily:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgb(0,0,0);margin:0px"><blockquot=
e type=3D"cite" class=3D"gmail-m_-4603647876781282200clean_bq"><div bgcolor=
=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"gmail-m_-4603647876781282200WordSec=
tion1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:windowtext">You can=E2=
=80=99t safely reuse the combination of nonce and key, IIUC.=C2=A0 Since ke=
y rollover is infrequent, the nonce has to change every packet and be guara=
nteed unique over the lifetime of, if not the connection, at least the curr=
ent key.</span></p></div></div></blockquote></div></span> For CTR mode encr=
yption which AES-GCM is, it is extremely bad to reuse the nonce. But it is =
still permitted if nonce only repeats with very low probability, like 2^-32=
 or so, don=E2=80=99t recall. This means that using a crypto hashed packet =
numbers as a nonce is an option, but a homegrown obfuscation is not.</div><=
/blockquote><div><br></div><div>I&#39;m not sure where you are getting this=
 from. Any nonce reuse at all with AES-GCM is catastrophic:</div><div><a hr=
ef=3D"http://csrc.nist.gov/groups/">http://csrc.nist.gov/groups/</a> ST/too=
lkit/BCM/documents/comments/800-38_ Series-Drafts/GCM/Joux_comments.pdf</di=
v><div><br></div><div>-Ekr</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,2=
04);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><span class=
=3D"gmail-HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><div>Mikkel</div></font></span><d=
iv><div class=3D"gmail-h5"><div><p class=3D"gmail-m_-4603647876781282200air=
mail_on">On 9 February 2018 at 07.19.32, Mike Bishop (<a href=3D"mailto:mbi=
shop@evequefou.be" target=3D"_blank">mbishop@evequefou.be</a>) wrote:</p> <=
blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"gmail-m_-4603647876781282200clean_bq"><sp=
an><div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US"><div></div><div>






<div class=3D"gmail-m_-4603647876781282200WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:windowtext">You can=E2=80=99t s=
afely reuse the combination of nonce and key, IIUC.=C2=A0 Since key rollove=
r is infrequent, the nonce has to change every packet and be guaranteed uni=
que over the lifetime of, if not the connection,
 at least the current key.=C2=A0 Since packet numbers also don=E2=80=99t re=
peat over the lifetime of the connection, I think using one as the variable=
 part of the other was just taking advantage of the alignment.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:windowtext">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:windowtext">I don=E2=80=99t thi=
nk having a randomized starting value and incrementing is necessarily any b=
etter than exposing the packet number.=C2=A0 Having a PRNG seed established=
 during the handshake and making the visible thing
 the next random output seems potentially interesting, but I=E2=80=99d want=
 our more crypto-minded friends to comment.=C2=A0 I think the real issue wo=
uld be guarantees about never-repeating from the PRNG, particularly as you =
don=E2=80=99t have guarantees about your peer=E2=80=99s implementation.=C2=
=A0
 A defined key derivation and a counter can be verified in the protocol, in=
dependent of how good the peer=E2=80=99s PRNG is.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:windowtext">=C2=A0</span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"color:windowtext">From:</span></b>=
<span style=3D"color:windowtext"> QUIC [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bounc=
es@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Praveen Balasubramanian<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 8, 2018 9:40 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> huitema &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:huitema@huitema.net" target=3D"_bl=
ank">huitema@huitema.net</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">quic@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Packet number encryption</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:windowtext">Actually taking a s=
tep back what if we don=E2=80=99t we overloaded packet number as the nonce?=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:windowtext">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:windowtext">Can we:</span></p>
<ol style=3D"margin-top:0in" start=3D"1" type=3D"1">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:windowtext">Put packet number as a s=
eparate variable length field in the encrypted portion of the header. This =
allows for growth beyond 64 bits in future and completely avoids ossificati=
on. For short
 lived flows variable length encoding leads to minimal space overhead. </li=
><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:windowtext">Put a separate plaintex=
t nonce which starts out as a secure random number and monotonically increa=
ses as short random jumps (every packet or every few packets) and could the=
n rollover. This
 will prevent linkability and scales to multi-path as well. No major comput=
e overhead. We can also make the nonce optional for crypto algorithms that =
do not need a nonce saving more space.
</li></ol>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:windowtext">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:windowtext">Some MSB of the non=
ce could be used for signaling reorder to the network if needed. I don=E2=
=80=99t have the historical context for overloading of PN as the nonce so p=
ardon me if un-overloading option was discussed
 and ruled out before.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:windowtext">=C2=A0</span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"color:windowtext">From:</span></b>=
<span style=3D"color:windowtext"> QUIC [<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bounces@ietf=
.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Praveen Balasubramanian<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 8, 2018 5:51 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> huitema &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:huitema@huitema.net" target=3D"_bl=
ank">huitema@huitema.net</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Packet number encryption</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&gt;&gt; and using separate packet sequences for eac=
h path</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This alone prevents linkability right?</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&gt;&gt; The packet number on each path will start a=
t 1 (or maybe 0 ;-).</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Is supporting multiple paths at the same time a goal=
? If yes, then yes all paths will need to have separate tracking and ACK st=
ate and congestion control etc. I thought this is not part of V1 RFC. If it=
s just one additional path for connection
 migration scenario then all you need is a (random) jump to a offset in pac=
ket number space for the new path so that the few packets in the old path c=
an continue for a little bit. This works with just one ACK space so no impl=
ementation complexity.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&gt;&gt; 2) Or, leaving the packet number in the cle=
ar but using different encryption contexts for each path, and using separat=
e packet sequences for each path.<br>
In addition if the value in the clear was obfuscated with an XOR transform =
it will help prevent ossification. The obfuscation is not meant to guard ag=
ainst later analysis that reveals the packet numbers - why do we care about=
 that. It is meant to grease the
 space and not make the numbers serial so middleboxes cannot assume orderin=
g etc.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">All said if I am alone in being concerned about the =
perf hit then I=E2=80=99d say go on with option 1.
<span style=3D"color:windowtext"></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:windowtext">=C2=A0</span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"color:windowtext">From:</span></b>=
<span style=3D"color:windowtext"> QUIC [<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bounces@ietf=
.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Christian Huitema<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 8, 2018 3:54 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic@ietf.org=
</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Packet number encryption</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p>On 2/8/2018 1:13 PM, Mike Bishop wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">#2 won=E2=80=99t work.=C2=A0 The packet number is an=
 input to the AEAD nonce, so you have to get to the packet number before yo=
u can decrypt the payload.=C2=A0 It can=E2=80=99t be based on anything inte=
rnal to the encrypted packet.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In Martin=E2=80=99s proposal, it=E2=80=99s using a c=
ombination of the encrypted payload (which requires nothing to access) and =
some stored state on each endpoint, which requires only the Connection ID t=
o look up.=C2=A0 You want the thing you XOR by to be constantly
 changing, or it becomes easier to look at sequences of obfuscated packet n=
umbers and start drawing inferences about what the XOR value is.=C2=A0 If o=
verhead is the primary concern, I think there are a couple approaches that =
might allow you to precompute values
 and amortize the cost of doing the encryption step.=C2=A0 (At the cost of =
keeping the table of precomputed values, of course.)</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I still think Jana=E2=80=99s pushing in the right di=
rection here:=C2=A0 Let=E2=80=99s agree on goals, and then see if we can cr=
aft a design that meets those goals.=C2=A0 I hear you saying that low overh=
ead is a goal, which I think we can all agree on.=C2=A0 I also think
 I hear you saying that 1-1.5% overhead is too high, but it sounds like the=
re=E2=80=99s less agreement on that.=C2=A0 You also raise an interesting po=
int that some clients will care less about linkability because they will ne=
ver intentionally migrate.</p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><br>
I think Victor said it best, &quot;Obfuscation is just encryption done poor=
ly.&quot; Either we encrypt, or we don&#39;t. But there is no such thing as=
 an obfuscation middle-ground. Obfuscation would just be a speed bump, easi=
ly broken. It won&#39;t provide privacy, and it won&#39;t
 prevent linkability.<br>
<br>
As far as I am concerned, there are only two designs that prevent linkabili=
ty:<br>
<br>
1) Martin&#39;s PR, in which the packet number is encrypted using sensible =
crypto;<br>
<br>
2) Or, leaving the packet number in the clear but using different encryptio=
n contexts for each path, and using separate packet sequences for each path=
.<br>
<br>
The second option requires more computation when explicitly setting up a ne=
w path. The connection ID would be used as part of the &quot;salt&quot; whe=
n deriving connection contexts. The packet number on each path will start a=
t 1 (or maybe 0 ;-). This requires maintaining
 separate SACK dashboards for each path/Connection-ID, and constraining ACK=
 to be per/path, or alternatively adding a PATH-ACK frame that indicates th=
e path for which packets are acked.<br>
<br>
The pros and cons of the two options are easy to get:<br>
<br>
1) Option 2 does not require the cost of encrypting every packet, thus per =
packet processing will be maybe 1% faster than option 1.
<br>
<br>
2) Option 2 requires computing encryption contexts for each path, which is =
more complex than option 1, but the cost will be amortized over the duratio=
n of the path.<br>
<br>
3) Option 2 requires more complex data structures and ACK management, thus =
increasing the chances that something goes wrong.<br>
<br>
4) Option 2 does nothing against packet number ossification. The packet num=
ber effectively becomes part of the invariants.<br>
<br>
In short, the only advantage of option 2 is to avoid a single symmetric enc=
ryption operation per packet, while making the code significantly more comp=
lex, and at the cost of not protecting against PN ossification. The way I s=
ee that, there is hardly any debate.<br>
<br>
-- Christian Huitema</p>
</div>


</div></div></span></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

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Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
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On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 9:40 PM, Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.co=
m
> wrote:

> Actually taking a step back what if we don=E2=80=99t we overloaded packet=
 number
> as the nonce?
>
>
>
> Can we:
>
>    1. Put packet number as a separate variable length field in the
>    encrypted portion of the header. This allows for growth beyond 64 bits=
 in
>    future and completely avoids ossification. For short lived flows varia=
ble
>    length encoding leads to minimal space overhead.
>    2. Put a separate plaintext nonce which starts out as a secure random
>    number and monotonically increases as short random jumps (every packet=
 or
>    every few packets) and could then rollover. This will prevent linkabil=
ity
>    and scales to multi-path as well. No major compute overhead. We can al=
so
>    make the nonce optional for crypto algorithms that do not need a nonce
>    saving more space.
>
>
I'm not sure how to do #2 safely and efficiently. The primary concern is
that short random jumps don't actually prevent linkability because the high
order bits don't change and long random jumps are effectively randomly
sampling out of the nonce space, and you start to run into birthday
problems. Additionally, the cheapest PRNGs are basically ciphers in counter
mode, so at best you're going to get a small amount of overhead reduction
by getting multiple jump computations out of a single block, though if you
use 96-bit jumps, you only get 25% savings...

-Ekr



Some MSB of the nonce could be used for signaling reorder to the network if
> needed. I don=E2=80=99t have the historical context for overloading of PN=
 as the
> nonce so pardon me if un-overloading option was discussed and ruled out
> before.
>
>
>
> *From:* QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Praveen
> Balasubramanian
> *Sent:* Thursday, February 8, 2018 5:51 PM
> *To:* huitema <huitema@huitema.net>; quic@ietf.org
> *Subject:* RE: Packet number encryption
>
>
>
> >> and using separate packet sequences for each path
>
> This alone prevents linkability right?
>
>
>
> >> The packet number on each path will start at 1 (or maybe 0 ;-).
>
> Is supporting multiple paths at the same time a goal? If yes, then yes al=
l
> paths will need to have separate tracking and ACK state and congestion
> control etc. I thought this is not part of V1 RFC. If its just one
> additional path for connection migration scenario then all you need is a
> (random) jump to a offset in packet number space for the new path so that
> the few packets in the old path can continue for a little bit. This works
> with just one ACK space so no implementation complexity.
>
>
>
> >> 2) Or, leaving the packet number in the clear but using different
> encryption contexts for each path, and using separate packet sequences fo=
r
> each path.
> In addition if the value in the clear was obfuscated with an XOR transfor=
m
> it will help prevent ossification. The obfuscation is not meant to guard
> against later analysis that reveals the packet numbers - why do we care
> about that. It is meant to grease the space and not make the numbers seri=
al
> so middleboxes cannot assume ordering etc.
>
>
>
> All said if I am alone in being concerned about the perf hit then I=E2=80=
=99d say
> go on with option 1.
>
>
>
> *From:* QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org <quic-bounces@ietf.org>] *On
> Behalf Of *Christian Huitema
> *Sent:* Thursday, February 8, 2018 3:54 PM
> *To:* quic@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: Packet number encryption
>
>
>
> On 2/8/2018 1:13 PM, Mike Bishop wrote:
>
> #2 won=E2=80=99t work.  The packet number is an input to the AEAD nonce, =
so you
> have to get to the packet number before you can decrypt the payload.  It
> can=E2=80=99t be based on anything internal to the encrypted packet.
>
>
>
> In Martin=E2=80=99s proposal, it=E2=80=99s using a combination of the enc=
rypted payload
> (which requires nothing to access) and some stored state on each endpoint=
,
> which requires only the Connection ID to look up.  You want the thing you
> XOR by to be constantly changing, or it becomes easier to look at sequenc=
es
> of obfuscated packet numbers and start drawing inferences about what the
> XOR value is.  If overhead is the primary concern, I think there are a
> couple approaches that might allow you to precompute values and amortize
> the cost of doing the encryption step.  (At the cost of keeping the table
> of precomputed values, of course.)
>
>
>
> I still think Jana=E2=80=99s pushing in the right direction here:  Let=E2=
=80=99s agree on
> goals, and then see if we can craft a design that meets those goals.  I
> hear you saying that low overhead is a goal, which I think we can all agr=
ee
> on.  I also think I hear you saying that 1-1.5% overhead is too high, but
> it sounds like there=E2=80=99s less agreement on that.  You also raise an
> interesting point that some clients will care less about linkability
> because they will never intentionally migrate.
>
>
> I think Victor said it best, "Obfuscation is just encryption done poorly.=
"
> Either we encrypt, or we don't. But there is no such thing as an
> obfuscation middle-ground. Obfuscation would just be a speed bump, easily
> broken. It won't provide privacy, and it won't prevent linkability.
>
> As far as I am concerned, there are only two designs that prevent
> linkability:
>
> 1) Martin's PR, in which the packet number is encrypted using sensible
> crypto;
>
> 2) Or, leaving the packet number in the clear but using different
> encryption contexts for each path, and using separate packet sequences fo=
r
> each path.
>
> The second option requires more computation when explicitly setting up a
> new path. The connection ID would be used as part of the "salt" when
> deriving connection contexts. The packet number on each path will start a=
t
> 1 (or maybe 0 ;-). This requires maintaining separate SACK dashboards for
> each path/Connection-ID, and constraining ACK to be per/path, or
> alternatively adding a PATH-ACK frame that indicates the path for which
> packets are acked.
>
> The pros and cons of the two options are easy to get:
>
> 1) Option 2 does not require the cost of encrypting every packet, thus pe=
r
> packet processing will be maybe 1% faster than option 1.
>
> 2) Option 2 requires computing encryption contexts for each path, which i=
s
> more complex than option 1, but the cost will be amortized over the
> duration of the path.
>
> 3) Option 2 requires more complex data structures and ACK management, thu=
s
> increasing the chances that something goes wrong.
>
> 4) Option 2 does nothing against packet number ossification. The packet
> number effectively becomes part of the invariants.
>
> In short, the only advantage of option 2 is to avoid a single symmetric
> encryption operation per packet, while making the code significantly more
> complex, and at the cost of not protecting against PN ossification. The w=
ay
> I see that, there is hardly any debate.
>
> -- Christian Huitema
>

--94eb2c0b7332c787710564c7d631
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 9:40 PM, Praveen Balasubramanian <span dir=3D"lt=
r">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pravb@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank">pravb@micro=
soft.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_-7407472849657667245WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:windowtext">Actually taking a s=
tep back what if we don=E2=80=99t we overloaded packet number as the nonce?=
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:windowtext"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:windowtext">Can we:<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<ol style=3D"margin-top:0in" start=3D"1" type=3D"1">
<li class=3D"m_-7407472849657667245MsoListParagraph" style=3D"color:windowt=
ext;margin-left:0in">
Put packet number as a separate variable length field in the encrypted port=
ion of the header. This allows for growth beyond 64 bits in future and comp=
letely avoids ossification. For short lived flows variable length encoding =
leads to minimal space overhead.
<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"m_-7407472849657667245MsoListParagraph" sty=
le=3D"color:windowtext;margin-left:0in">
Put a separate plaintext nonce which starts out as a secure random number a=
nd monotonically increases as short random jumps (every packet or every few=
 packets) and could then rollover. This will prevent linkability and scales=
 to multi-path as well. No major
 compute overhead. We can also make the nonce optional for crypto algorithm=
s that do not need a nonce saving more space.</li></ol></div></div></blockq=
uote><div><br></div><div>I&#39;m not sure how to do #2 safely and efficient=
ly. The primary concern is that short random jumps don&#39;t actually preve=
nt linkability because the high order bits don&#39;t change and long random=
 jumps are effectively randomly sampling out of the nonce space, and you st=
art to run into birthday problems. Additionally, the cheapest PRNGs are bas=
ically ciphers in counter mode, so at best you&#39;re going to get a small =
amount of overhead reduction by getting multiple jump computations out of a=
 single block, though if you use 96-bit jumps, you only get 25% savings...<=
/div><div><br></div><div>-Ekr</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br><=
/div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-le=
ft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" l=
ink=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"m_-7407472849657667245WordSecti=
on1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:windowtext">Some MSB of the non=
ce could be used for signaling reorder to the network if needed. I don=E2=
=80=99t have the historical context for overloading of PN as the nonce so p=
ardon me if un-overloading option was discussed
 and ruled out before.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:windowtext"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"color:windowtext">From:</span></b>=
<span style=3D"color:windowtext"> QUIC [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bounc=
es@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Praveen Balasubramanian<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 8, 2018 5:51 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> huitema &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:huitema@huitema.net" target=3D"_bl=
ank">huitema@huitema.net</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">quic@ietf.org</a><span class=3D""><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Packet number encryption<u></u><u></u></span></span></p=
>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&gt;&gt; and using separate packet sequences for eac=
h path<u></u><u></u></p><div><div class=3D"h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This alone prevents linkability right?<u></u><u></u>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&gt;&gt; The packet number on each path will start a=
t 1 (or maybe 0 ;-).<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Is supporting multiple paths at the same time a goal=
? If yes, then yes all paths will need to have separate tracking and ACK st=
ate and congestion control etc. I thought this is not part of V1 RFC. If it=
s just one additional path for connection
 migration scenario then all you need is a (random) jump to a offset in pac=
ket number space for the new path so that the few packets in the old path c=
an continue for a little bit. This works with just one ACK space so no impl=
ementation complexity.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&gt;&gt; 2) Or, leaving the packet number in the cle=
ar but using different encryption contexts for each path, and using separat=
e packet sequences for each path.<br>
In addition if the value in the clear was obfuscated with an XOR transform =
it will help prevent ossification. The obfuscation is not meant to guard ag=
ainst later analysis that reveals the packet numbers - why do we care about=
 that. It is meant to grease the
 space and not make the numbers serial so middleboxes cannot assume orderin=
g etc.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">All said if I am alone in being concerned about the =
perf hit then I=E2=80=99d say go on with option 1.
<span style=3D"color:windowtext"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:windowtext"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"color:windowtext">From:</span></b>=
<span style=3D"color:windowtext"> QUIC [<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bounces@ietf=
.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Christian Huitema<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 8, 2018 3:54 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic@ietf.org=
</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Packet number encryption<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p>On 2/8/2018 1:13 PM, Mike Bishop wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">#2 won=E2=80=99t work.=C2=A0 The packet number is an=
 input to the AEAD nonce, so you have to get to the packet number before yo=
u can decrypt the payload.=C2=A0 It can=E2=80=99t be based on anything inte=
rnal to the encrypted packet.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In Martin=E2=80=99s proposal, it=E2=80=99s using a c=
ombination of the encrypted payload (which requires nothing to access) and =
some stored state on each endpoint, which requires only the Connection ID t=
o look up.=C2=A0 You want the thing you XOR by to be constantly
 changing, or it becomes easier to look at sequences of obfuscated packet n=
umbers and start drawing inferences about what the XOR value is.=C2=A0 If o=
verhead is the primary concern, I think there are a couple approaches that =
might allow you to precompute values
 and amortize the cost of doing the encryption step.=C2=A0 (At the cost of =
keeping the table of precomputed values, of course.)<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I still think Jana=E2=80=99s pushing in the right di=
rection here:=C2=A0 Let=E2=80=99s agree on goals, and then see if we can cr=
aft a design that meets those goals.=C2=A0 I hear you saying that low overh=
ead is a goal, which I think we can all agree on.=C2=A0 I also think
 I hear you saying that 1-1.5% overhead is too high, but it sounds like the=
re=E2=80=99s less agreement on that.=C2=A0 You also raise an interesting po=
int that some clients will care less about linkability because they will ne=
ver intentionally migrate.<u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
I think Victor said it best, &quot;Obfuscation is just encryption done poor=
ly.&quot; Either we encrypt, or we don&#39;t. But there is no such thing as=
 an obfuscation middle-ground. Obfuscation would just be a speed bump, easi=
ly broken. It won&#39;t provide privacy, and it won&#39;t
 prevent linkability.<br>
<br>
As far as I am concerned, there are only two designs that prevent linkabili=
ty:<br>
<br>
1) Martin&#39;s PR, in which the packet number is encrypted using sensible =
crypto;<br>
<br>
2) Or, leaving the packet number in the clear but using different encryptio=
n contexts for each path, and using separate packet sequences for each path=
.<br>
<br>
The second option requires more computation when explicitly setting up a ne=
w path. The connection ID would be used as part of the &quot;salt&quot; whe=
n deriving connection contexts. The packet number on each path will start a=
t 1 (or maybe 0 ;-). This requires maintaining
 separate SACK dashboards for each path/Connection-ID, and constraining ACK=
 to be per/path, or alternatively adding a PATH-ACK frame that indicates th=
e path for which packets are acked.<br>
<br>
The pros and cons of the two options are easy to get:<br>
<br>
1) Option 2 does not require the cost of encrypting every packet, thus per =
packet processing will be maybe 1% faster than option 1.
<br>
<br>
2) Option 2 requires computing encryption contexts for each path, which is =
more complex than option 1, but the cost will be amortized over the duratio=
n of the path.<br>
<br>
3) Option 2 requires more complex data structures and ACK management, thus =
increasing the chances that something goes wrong.<br>
<br>
4) Option 2 does nothing against packet number ossification. The packet num=
ber effectively becomes part of the invariants.<br>
<br>
In short, the only advantage of option 2 is to avoid a single symmetric enc=
ryption operation per packet, while making the code significantly more comp=
lex, and at the cost of not protecting against PN ossification. The way I s=
ee that, there is hardly any debate.<br>
<br>
-- Christian Huitema<u></u><u></u></p>
</div></div></div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--94eb2c0b7332c787710564c7d631--


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Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
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Cc: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>, Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>,  "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
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On 9 February 2018 at 14.34.17, Eric Rescorla (ekr@rtfm.com) wrote:


I'm not sure where you are getting this from. Any nonce reuse at all with
AES-GCM is catastrophic:
http://csrc.nist.gov/groups/ ST/toolkit/BCM/documents/comments/800-38_
Series-Drafts/GCM/Joux_comments.pdf


I read it in a NIST paper I also linked to in other mail here, but it
appears they have gone back on that based on the Ferguson paper. It nows
says Legacy in url, but still shows up prominently in a google search.

http://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/Legacy/SP/nistspecialpublication800-38d.pdf

--001a113fa926d1abbe0564c805dd
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<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">On 9 February 2018 a=
t 14.34.17, Eric Rescorla (<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com">ekr@rtfm.com</a>=
) wrote:</div> <div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq" style=3D"f=
ont-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ca=
ps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-in=
dent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span><di=
v><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:&quot;helvetica Neue&quot;,hel=
vetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weigh=
t:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transf=
orm:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br class=3D"Apple-interchang=
e-newline">I&#39;m not sure where you are getting this from. Any nonce reus=
e at all with AES-GCM is catastrophic:</div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);=
font-family:&quot;helvetica Neue&quot;,helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:=
normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;te=
xt-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-=
spacing:0px"><a href=3D"http://csrc.nist.gov/groups/">http://csrc.nist.gov/=
groups/</a><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>ST/toolkit/BC=
M/documents/comments/800-38_ Series-Drafts/GCM/Joux_comments.pdf</div></div=
></span></blockquote></div><p><br></p><p>I read it in a NIST paper I also l=
inked to in other mail here, but it appears they have gone back on that bas=
ed on the Ferguson paper. It nows says Legacy in url, but still shows up pr=
ominently in a google search.</p><p><a href=3D"http://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nist=
pubs/Legacy/SP/nistspecialpublication800-38d.pdf" style=3D"font-family:&quo=
t;helvetica Neue&quot;,helvetica;font-size:14px">http://nvlpubs.nist.gov/ni=
stpubs/Legacy/SP/nistspecialpublication800-38d.pdf</a></p><div></div></body=
></html>

--001a113fa926d1abbe0564c805dd--


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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 06:07:16 -0800
Message-ID: <CABcZeBOchSCZ8u5eY9pvBiMMZZCmXPKBb1thH_V9w9EOZT4G7w@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
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Cc: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>, Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>,  "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
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As far as I know, this is just NIST's judgement of how low a risk of
nonce-reuse has to be in order to be safe. To the best of my knowledge,
there's still no safe level of actual reuse. For that you'd need something
like AES-GCM-SIV.

-Ekr


On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 6:05 AM, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen <mikkelfj=
@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On 9 February 2018 at 14.34.17, Eric Rescorla (ekr@rtfm.com) wrote:
>
>
> I'm not sure where you are getting this from. Any nonce reuse at all with
> AES-GCM is catastrophic:
> http://csrc.nist.gov/groups/ ST/toolkit/BCM/documents/comments/800-38_
> Series-Drafts/GCM/Joux_comments.pdf
>
>
> I read it in a NIST paper I also linked to in other mail here, but it
> appears they have gone back on that based on the Ferguson paper. It nows
> says Legacy in url, but still shows up prominently in a google search.
>
> http://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/Legacy/SP/nistspecialpublication800-38d.
> pdf
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">As far as I know, this is just NIST&#39;s judgement of how=
 low a risk of nonce-reuse has to be in order to be safe. To the best of my=
 knowledge, there&#39;s still no safe level of actual reuse. For that you&#=
39;d need something like AES-GCM-SIV.<div><br></div><div>-Ekr</div><div><br=
></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On F=
ri, Feb 9, 2018 at 6:05 AM, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen <span dir=3D"=
ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mikkelfj@g=
mail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div sty=
le=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><span class=3D""><=
div id=3D"m_3175929965892286058bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helve=
tica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto=
">On 9 February 2018 at 14.34.17, Eric Rescorla (<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm=
.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>) wrote:</div> <div><blockquote typ=
e=3D"cite" class=3D"m_3175929965892286058clean_bq" style=3D"font-family:Hel=
vetica,Arial;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font=
-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-=
transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span><div><div style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:&quot;helvetica Neue&quot;,helvetica;font-=
size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi=
te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br class=3D"m_3175929965892286058Apple-i=
nterchange-newline">I&#39;m not sure where you are getting this from. Any n=
once reuse at all with AES-GCM is catastrophic:</div><div style=3D"color:rg=
b(0,0,0);font-family:&quot;helvetica Neue&quot;,helvetica;font-size:14px;fo=
nt-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:=
normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:nor=
mal;word-spacing:0px"><a href=3D"http://csrc.nist.gov/groups/" target=3D"_b=
lank">http://csrc.nist.gov/groups/</a><span class=3D"m_3175929965892286058A=
pple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>S<wbr>T/toolkit/BCM/documents/<wbr>comme=
nts/800-38_ Series-Drafts/GCM/Joux_<wbr>comments.pdf</div></div></span></bl=
ockquote></div><p><br></p></span><p>I read it in a NIST paper I also linked=
 to in other mail here, but it appears they have gone back on that based on=
 the Ferguson paper. It nows says Legacy in url, but still shows up promine=
ntly in a google search.</p><p><a href=3D"http://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/=
Legacy/SP/nistspecialpublication800-38d.pdf" style=3D"font-family:&quot;hel=
vetica Neue&quot;,helvetica;font-size:14px" target=3D"_blank">http://nvlpub=
s.nist.gov/<wbr>nistpubs/Legacy/SP/<wbr>nistspecialpublication800-38d.<wbr>=
pdf</a></p><div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

--f403045f1076232e840564c80e70--


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Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Cc: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>, Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>,  "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
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As far as I know, this is just NIST's judgement of how low a risk of
nonce-reuse has to be in order to be safe. To the best of my knowledge,
there's still no safe level of actual reuse. For that you'd need something
like AES-GCM-SIV.


OK, but as I also pointed out in another recent mail, correcting myself,
IETF requires unique nonces in TLS, so the point is mood.

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<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><b=
lockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq"><span><div><div><div dir=3D"ltr"=
>As far as I know, this is just NIST&#39;s judgement of
how low a risk of nonce-reuse has to be in order to be safe. To the
best of my knowledge, there&#39;s still no safe level of actual reuse.
For that you&#39;d need something like AES-GCM-SIV.
<div><br></div></div></div></div></span></blockquote><div><br></div>OK, but=
 as I also pointed out in another recent mail, correcting myself, IETF requ=
ires unique nonces in TLS, so the point is mood.</body></html>

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From: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>
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Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Cc: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
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On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 8:51 AM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 9:40 PM, Praveen Balasubramanian <
> pravb@microsoft.com> wrote:
>
>> Actually taking a step back what if we don=E2=80=99t we overloaded packe=
t number
>> as the nonce?
>>
>>
>>
>> Can we:
>>
>>    1. Put packet number as a separate variable length field in the
>>    encrypted portion of the header. This allows for growth beyond 64 bit=
s in
>>    future and completely avoids ossification. For short lived flows vari=
able
>>    length encoding leads to minimal space overhead.
>>    2. Put a separate plaintext nonce which starts out as a secure random
>>    number and monotonically increases as short random jumps (every packe=
t or
>>    every few packets) and could then rollover. This will prevent linkabi=
lity
>>    and scales to multi-path as well. No major compute overhead. We can a=
lso
>>    make the nonce optional for crypto algorithms that do not need a nonc=
e
>>    saving more space.
>>
>>
> I'm not sure how to do #2 safely and efficiently. The primary concern is
> that short random jumps don't actually prevent linkability because the hi=
gh
> order bits don't change and long random jumps are effectively randomly
> sampling out of the nonce space, and you start to run into birthday
> problems. Additionally, the cheapest PRNGs are basically ciphers in count=
er
> mode, so at best you're going to get a small amount of overhead reduction
> by getting multiple jump computations out of a single block, though if yo=
u
> use 96-bit jumps, you only get 25% savings...
>
> -Ekr
>
>
>
> Some MSB of the nonce could be used for signaling reorder to the network
>> if needed. I don=E2=80=99t have the historical context for overloading o=
f PN as the
>> nonce so pardon me if un-overloading option was discussed and ruled out
>> before.
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Praveen
>> Balasubramanian
>> *Sent:* Thursday, February 8, 2018 5:51 PM
>> *To:* huitema <huitema@huitema.net>; quic@ietf.org
>> *Subject:* RE: Packet number encryption
>>
>>
>>
>> >> and using separate packet sequences for each path
>>
>> This alone prevents linkability right?
>>
>>
>>
>> >> The packet number on each path will start at 1 (or maybe 0 ;-).
>>
>> Is supporting multiple paths at the same time a goal? If yes, then yes
>> all paths will need to have separate tracking and ACK state and congesti=
on
>> control etc. I thought this is not part of V1 RFC. If its just one
>> additional path for connection migration scenario then all you need is a
>> (random) jump to a offset in packet number space for the new path so tha=
t
>> the few packets in the old path can continue for a little bit. This work=
s
>> with just one ACK space so no implementation complexity.
>>
>>
>>
>> >> 2) Or, leaving the packet number in the clear but using different
>> encryption contexts for each path, and using separate packet sequences f=
or
>> each path.
>> In addition if the value in the clear was obfuscated with an XOR
>> transform it will help prevent ossification. The obfuscation is not mean=
t
>> to guard against later analysis that reveals the packet numbers - why do=
 we
>> care about that. It is meant to grease the space and not make the number=
s
>> serial so middleboxes cannot assume ordering etc.
>>
>>
>>
>> All said if I am alone in being concerned about the perf hit then I=E2=
=80=99d say
>> go on with option 1.
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org <quic-bounces@ietf.org>] *On
>> Behalf Of *Christian Huitema
>> *Sent:* Thursday, February 8, 2018 3:54 PM
>> *To:* quic@ietf.org
>> *Subject:* Re: Packet number encryption
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2/8/2018 1:13 PM, Mike Bishop wrote:
>>
>> #2 won=E2=80=99t work.  The packet number is an input to the AEAD nonce,=
 so you
>> have to get to the packet number before you can decrypt the payload.  It
>> can=E2=80=99t be based on anything internal to the encrypted packet.
>>
>>
>>
>> In Martin=E2=80=99s proposal, it=E2=80=99s using a combination of the en=
crypted payload
>> (which requires nothing to access) and some stored state on each endpoin=
t,
>> which requires only the Connection ID to look up.  You want the thing yo=
u
>> XOR by to be constantly changing, or it becomes easier to look at sequen=
ces
>> of obfuscated packet numbers and start drawing inferences about what the
>> XOR value is.  If overhead is the primary concern, I think there are a
>> couple approaches that might allow you to precompute values and amortize
>> the cost of doing the encryption step.  (At the cost of keeping the tabl=
e
>> of precomputed values, of course.)
>>
>>
>>
>> I still think Jana=E2=80=99s pushing in the right direction here:  Let=
=E2=80=99s agree on
>> goals, and then see if we can craft a design that meets those goals.  I
>> hear you saying that low overhead is a goal, which I think we can all ag=
ree
>> on.  I also think I hear you saying that 1-1.5% overhead is too high, bu=
t
>> it sounds like there=E2=80=99s less agreement on that.  You also raise a=
n
>> interesting point that some clients will care less about linkability
>> because they will never intentionally migrate.
>>
>>
>> I think Victor said it best, "Obfuscation is just encryption done
>> poorly." Either we encrypt, or we don't. But there is no such thing as a=
n
>> obfuscation middle-ground. Obfuscation would just be a speed bump, easil=
y
>> broken. It won't provide privacy, and it won't prevent linkability.
>>
>> As far as I am concerned, there are only two designs that prevent
>> linkability:
>>
>> 1) Martin's PR, in which the packet number is encrypted using sensible
>> crypto;
>>
>> 2) Or, leaving the packet number in the clear but using different
>> encryption contexts for each path, and using separate packet sequences f=
or
>> each path.
>>
> I don't believe the second is necessary if we want to leave the PN in the
clear.  Avoiding nonce reuse is relatively easy.  Avoiding linkability is
more annoying, but doable.

On net, I think encryption may be the best approach, but I don't think not
doing encryption demands the complexity you indicate.


> The second option requires more computation when explicitly setting up a
>> new path. The connection ID would be used as part of the "salt" when
>> deriving connection contexts. The packet number on each path will start =
at
>> 1 (or maybe 0 ;-). This requires maintaining separate SACK dashboards fo=
r
>> each path/Connection-ID, and constraining ACK to be per/path, or
>> alternatively adding a PATH-ACK frame that indicates the path for which
>> packets are acked.
>>
>> The pros and cons of the two options are easy to get:
>>
>> 1) Option 2 does not require the cost of encrypting every packet, thus
>> per packet processing will be maybe 1% faster than option 1.
>>
>> 2) Option 2 requires computing encryption contexts for each path, which
>> is more complex than option 1, but the cost will be amortized over the
>> duration of the path.
>>
>> 3) Option 2 requires more complex data structures and ACK management,
>> thus increasing the chances that something goes wrong.
>>
>> 4) Option 2 does nothing against packet number ossification. The packet
>> number effectively becomes part of the invariants.
>>
>> In short, the only advantage of option 2 is to avoid a single symmetric
>> encryption operation per packet, while making the code significantly mor=
e
>> complex, and at the cost of not protecting against PN ossification. The =
way
>> I see that, there is hardly any debate.
>>
>> -- Christian Huitema
>>
>
>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On F=
ri, Feb 9, 2018 at 8:51 AM, Eric Rescorla <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<b=
r><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:=
1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_e=
xtra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><span class=3D"">On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 a=
t 9:40 PM, Praveen Balasubramanian <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
pravb@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank">pravb@microsoft.com</a>&gt;</span> w=
rote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde=
r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_8853831519259030665m_-7407472849657667245WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:windowtext">Actually taking a s=
tep back what if we don=E2=80=99t we overloaded packet number as the nonce?=
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:windowtext"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:windowtext">Can we:<u></u><u></=
u></span></p>
<ol style=3D"margin-top:0in" start=3D"1" type=3D"1">
<li class=3D"m_8853831519259030665m_-7407472849657667245MsoListParagraph" s=
tyle=3D"color:windowtext;margin-left:0in">
Put packet number as a separate variable length field in the encrypted port=
ion of the header. This allows for growth beyond 64 bits in future and comp=
letely avoids ossification. For short lived flows variable length encoding =
leads to minimal space overhead.
<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"m_8853831519259030665m_-7407472849657667245=
MsoListParagraph" style=3D"color:windowtext;margin-left:0in">
Put a separate plaintext nonce which starts out as a secure random number a=
nd monotonically increases as short random jumps (every packet or every few=
 packets) and could then rollover. This will prevent linkability and scales=
 to multi-path as well. No major
 compute overhead. We can also make the nonce optional for crypto algorithm=
s that do not need a nonce saving more space.</li></ol></div></div></blockq=
uote><div><br></div></span><div>I&#39;m not sure how to do #2 safely and ef=
ficiently. The primary concern is that short random jumps don&#39;t actuall=
y prevent linkability because the high order bits don&#39;t change and long=
 random jumps are effectively randomly sampling out of the nonce space, and=
 you start to run into birthday problems. Additionally, the cheapest PRNGs =
are basically ciphers in counter mode, so at best you&#39;re going to get a=
 small amount of overhead reduction by getting multiple jump computations o=
ut of a single block, though if you use 96-bit jumps, you only get 25% savi=
ngs...</div><div><br></div><div>-Ekr</div><div><div class=3D"h5"><div><br><=
/div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgc=
olor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"=
m_8853831519259030665m_-7407472849657667245WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:windowtext">Some MSB of the non=
ce could be used for signaling reorder to the network if needed. I don=E2=
=80=99t have the historical context for overloading of PN as the nonce so p=
ardon me if un-overloading option was discussed
 and ruled out before.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:windowtext"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"color:windowtext">From:</span></b>=
<span style=3D"color:windowtext"> QUIC [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bounc=
es@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Praveen Balasubramanian<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 8, 2018 5:51 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> huitema &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:huitema@huitema.net" target=3D"_bl=
ank">huitema@huitema.net</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">quic@ietf.org</a><span><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Packet number encryption<u></u><u></u></span></span></p=
>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&gt;&gt; and using separate packet sequences for eac=
h path<u></u><u></u></p><div><div class=3D"m_8853831519259030665h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This alone prevents linkability right?<u></u><u></u>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&gt;&gt; The packet number on each path will start a=
t 1 (or maybe 0 ;-).<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Is supporting multiple paths at the same time a goal=
? If yes, then yes all paths will need to have separate tracking and ACK st=
ate and congestion control etc. I thought this is not part of V1 RFC. If it=
s just one additional path for connection
 migration scenario then all you need is a (random) jump to a offset in pac=
ket number space for the new path so that the few packets in the old path c=
an continue for a little bit. This works with just one ACK space so no impl=
ementation complexity.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&gt;&gt; 2) Or, leaving the packet number in the cle=
ar but using different encryption contexts for each path, and using separat=
e packet sequences for each path.<br>
In addition if the value in the clear was obfuscated with an XOR transform =
it will help prevent ossification. The obfuscation is not meant to guard ag=
ainst later analysis that reveals the packet numbers - why do we care about=
 that. It is meant to grease the
 space and not make the numbers serial so middleboxes cannot assume orderin=
g etc.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">All said if I am alone in being concerned about the =
perf hit then I=E2=80=99d say go on with option 1.
<span style=3D"color:windowtext"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:windowtext"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u=
></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"color:windowtext">From:</span></b>=
<span style=3D"color:windowtext"> QUIC [<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bounces@ietf=
.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Christian Huitema<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 8, 2018 3:54 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic@ietf.org=
</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Packet number encryption<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p>On 2/8/2018 1:13 PM, Mike Bishop wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">#2 won=E2=80=99t work.=C2=A0 The packet number is an=
 input to the AEAD nonce, so you have to get to the packet number before yo=
u can decrypt the payload.=C2=A0 It can=E2=80=99t be based on anything inte=
rnal to the encrypted packet.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In Martin=E2=80=99s proposal, it=E2=80=99s using a c=
ombination of the encrypted payload (which requires nothing to access) and =
some stored state on each endpoint, which requires only the Connection ID t=
o look up.=C2=A0 You want the thing you XOR by to be constantly
 changing, or it becomes easier to look at sequences of obfuscated packet n=
umbers and start drawing inferences about what the XOR value is.=C2=A0 If o=
verhead is the primary concern, I think there are a couple approaches that =
might allow you to precompute values
 and amortize the cost of doing the encryption step.=C2=A0 (At the cost of =
keeping the table of precomputed values, of course.)<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I still think Jana=E2=80=99s pushing in the right di=
rection here:=C2=A0 Let=E2=80=99s agree on goals, and then see if we can cr=
aft a design that meets those goals.=C2=A0 I hear you saying that low overh=
ead is a goal, which I think we can all agree on.=C2=A0 I also think
 I hear you saying that 1-1.5% overhead is too high, but it sounds like the=
re=E2=80=99s less agreement on that.=C2=A0 You also raise an interesting po=
int that some clients will care less about linkability because they will ne=
ver intentionally migrate.<u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
I think Victor said it best, &quot;Obfuscation is just encryption done poor=
ly.&quot; Either we encrypt, or we don&#39;t. But there is no such thing as=
 an obfuscation middle-ground. Obfuscation would just be a speed bump, easi=
ly broken. It won&#39;t provide privacy, and it won&#39;t
 prevent linkability.<br>
<br>
As far as I am concerned, there are only two designs that prevent linkabili=
ty:<br>
<br>
1) Martin&#39;s PR, in which the packet number is encrypted using sensible =
crypto;<br>
<br>
2) Or, leaving the packet number in the clear but using different encryptio=
n contexts for each path, and using separate packet sequences for each path=
.<br></p></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div=
></blockquote><div>I don&#39;t believe the second is necessary if we want t=
o leave the PN in the clear.=C2=A0 Avoiding nonce reuse is relatively easy.=
=C2=A0 Avoiding linkability is more annoying, but doable.=C2=A0</div><div><=
br></div><div>On net, I think encryption may be the best approach, but I do=
n&#39;t think not doing encryption demands the complexity you indicate.<br>=
</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div=
 class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><div class=3D"h5"><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px =
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"=
blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"m_8853831519259030665m_-74074728496576=
67245WordSection1"><div><div class=3D"m_8853831519259030665h5"><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">
The second option requires more computation when explicitly setting up a ne=
w path. The connection ID would be used as part of the &quot;salt&quot; whe=
n deriving connection contexts. The packet number on each path will start a=
t 1 (or maybe 0 ;-). This requires maintaining
 separate SACK dashboards for each path/Connection-ID, and constraining ACK=
 to be per/path, or alternatively adding a PATH-ACK frame that indicates th=
e path for which packets are acked.<br>
<br>
The pros and cons of the two options are easy to get:<br>
<br>
1) Option 2 does not require the cost of encrypting every packet, thus per =
packet processing will be maybe 1% faster than option 1.
<br>
<br>
2) Option 2 requires computing encryption contexts for each path, which is =
more complex than option 1, but the cost will be amortized over the duratio=
n of the path.<br>
<br>
3) Option 2 requires more complex data structures and ACK management, thus =
increasing the chances that something goes wrong.<br>
<br>
4) Option 2 does nothing against packet number ossification. The packet num=
ber effectively becomes part of the invariants.<br>
<br>
In short, the only advantage of option 2 is to avoid a single symmetric enc=
ryption operation per packet, while making the code significantly more comp=
lex, and at the cost of not protecting against PN ossification. The way I s=
ee that, there is hardly any debate.<br>
<br>
-- Christian Huitema<u></u><u></u></p>
</div></div></div>
</div>

</blockquote></div></div></div><br></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--f4f5e80671985acf250564c82775--


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From: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
To: "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>, =?utf-8?B?TWlra2VsIEZhaG7DuGUgSsO4cmdlbnNlbg==?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>, Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
Subject: RE: Packet number encryption
Thread-Topic: Packet number encryption
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From: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
CC: huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Packet number encryption
Thread-Topic: Packet number encryption
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From: "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>
To: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
CC: "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
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From nobody Fri Feb  9 09:48:19 2018
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Subject: The Recovery Period
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Hi All,

4.3 of the recovery draft:

Recovery is a period of time beginning with detection of a lost packet.
Because QUIC retransmits stream data and control frames, not packets, it
defines the end of recovery as a packet sent after the start of recovery
being acknowledged.

and then in 4.7.2

end_of_recovery: The largest packet number sent when QUIC detects a loss.
When a larger packet is acknowledged, QUIC exits recovery.
and then in 4.7.6

OnPacketsLost() [...]
 end_of_recovery = largest_sent_packet

I think these are inconsistent.. essentially 4.7.2 and 4.7.6 should be
"next packet number sent" not "largest currently sent" - true?

--f403043d7ef0b94b7a0564cb2148
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi All,</div><div><br></div><div>4.3 of the recovery =
draft:</div><div><span style=3D"font-family:monospace,monospace"><br></span=
></div><div><span style=3D"font-family:monospace,monospace">Recovery is a p=
eriod of time beginning with detection of a lost packet.=20
 Because QUIC retransmits stream data and control frames, not packets,=20
it defines the end of recovery as a packet sent after the start of=20
recovery being acknowledged.=C2=A0</span></div><div><br></div><div>and then=
 in 4.7.2</div><div></div><div><br></div><div><dt><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:monospace,monospace">end_of_recovery:</span></dt><span style=3D"font-fami=
ly:monospace,monospace">
</span><dd><span style=3D"font-family:monospace,monospace">The largest pack=
et number sent when QUIC detects a loss.  When a larger packet is acknowled=
ged, QUIC exits recovery.</span></dd><br></div><div>and then in 4.7.6</div>=
<div></div><div><pre>OnPacketsLost() [...]<br>=C2=A0end_of_recovery =3D lar=
gest_sent_packet</pre></div><div>I think these are inconsistent.. essential=
ly 4.7.2 and 4.7.6 should be &quot;next packet number sent&quot; not &quot;=
largest currently sent&quot; - true?</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><di=
v><br></div><div><br></div></div>

--f403043d7ef0b94b7a0564cb2148--


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From: Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>
To: Lucas Pardue <Lucas.Pardue@bbc.co.uk>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Review of QCRAM
Thread-Topic: Review of QCRAM
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From: "Charles 'Buck' Krasic" <ckrasic@google.com>
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 10:15:04 -0800
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Subject: Re: Review of QCRAM
To: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
Cc: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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Thanks Martin!

I am behind in digesting this, I intend to comment later today.

In the meantime though, have you looked at QCRAM doc github repo
<https://github.com/krasic/draft-krasic-quic-hpack> ?  (Notice it has
working diff against -04).  The reason I ask, is that I made updates there
in response to various comments around the time of the interim.   I think
the diffs relate partially to some of your ideas.



On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 2:08 AM, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
wrote:

> I have implemented QCRAM and have a few things to comment on.
>
> My implementation is here:
>   https://github.com/martinthomson/minhq/tree/master/hc
>
> This is my first attempt at go, so this took a little longer than it might
> have
> otherwise. Test coverage is still a little light, though go thinks that I
> have
> pretty good coverage. There's probably still a lot to go on the corner
> cases,
> but I think that I've done enough to get an idea for the complexity bump.
>
> I started by implementing HPACK, which is surprisingly easy if you don't
> care
> about being efficient. Though I knew that I was going to add QCRAM, I made
> only
> minimal design concessions when building HPACK.
>
> Building QCRAM on top of HPACK took at least 50% more than just doing
> HPACK (at
> a guess, HPACK took about 10-12 hours, QCRAM took closer to 20). Even
> though
> you can reuse Huffman coding and most of the primitives, retrofitting it
> was
> tricky. My lack of familiarity with go definitely contributed a lot to
> that,
> but I'd say that QCRAM is more difficult to implement than it seems in
> theory.
>
> I didn't implement QCRAM entirely as specified. There are a few things that
> I'll describe below that would make it either better or easier to
> implement (or
> both).
>
>
> # Separate Stream Roles
>
> There are actually three streams of data that are of interest, and there
> is no
> clarity about those streams.
>
> 1. I suggest that we use unidirectional streams in each direction for table
> updates.
>
> 2. A separate stream for acknowledgments ensures that the encoder can
> consume
> that separately to the decoder.
>
> 3. Request/response streams. I think that we all understand these.
>
> These can be separate from the hq control stream, and they should be.
> Rather
> than pick a specific stream number, we should add a header for these
> streams
> that will allow them to be identified clearly. If we do that, add strict
> rules
> about cardinality.
>
> # Define Framing More Clearly
>
> The definition of the framing that is used on the control stream is
> unclear. I
> assume that the intent is to use HEADERS frames, but I'm only really
> guessing.
> If you take my suggestion for separate framing, then you can use very
> different
> logic for the different streams.
>
> Honestly, the overhead of framing is excessive for anything but
> request/response streams. I found that framing on the control stream wasn't
> necessary at all. This might depend on implementation strategy, because it
> might be easier to collect a framed thing than it is to read until you are
> blocked, then pickle that state so that you can go back to something else.
> In
> my implementation I hold state on the stack, so it's pretty easy.
>
> Also, it should suffice to have just a stream of varints indicating
> acknowledgments. Duplicates can be used to acknowledge multiple header
> blocks
> on the same stream in order.
>
> # Split the Instruction Space
>
> Having to check that only certain instructions appear on different streams
> is
> annoying to implement and a waste of bits. Define two separate spaces. That
> should make things much simpler: there are exactly two instructions in each
> space then (leaving aside acknowledgments, which I will cover below).
>
> # Base in Every HEADERS Frame
>
> Base (the number of inserts in the table at the start of a header block)
> seems
> to be required for all HEADERS frames, including both table modification
> and
> request/response streams.  But...
>
> # Base on the Table Update Stream
>
> You don't need base for table updates. It is more of a hazard than a help.
> It
> is easier if you treat indexing on the table update stream as in HPACK
> where
> each insert moves the reference point for the next insertion.
>
> # Remove BLOCKING
>
> The BLOCKING flag complicates the design unnecessarily. As a fixed
> overhead,
> pay the extra byte always. Furthermore, the table update stream will never
> need
> to use depends, so that further motivates having different instruction sets
> (and formats) for different streams.  And you don't need it...
>
> # Base and the Static Table
>
> It is not explained at all that the base is applied to the dynamic table
> only.
> That is, index 1 is a straight index into the static table and that index
> 62
> will use the current number of inserts and the base to determine the actual
> index into the dynamic table (this is the first table entry only when the
> number of table inserts and base are the same, if the base is smaller,
> then it
> will be further along the table).
>
> To be clear, my logic for finding entries is:
>
>     if i == 0: error
>     if i <= len(staticTable): return staticTable[i-1]
>     delta = tableBase - base
>     if delta < 0: error
>     return dynamicTable[i - len(staticTable) - 1 + delta]
>
> # Remove Depends
>
> Depends is useless. I did not implement it. Base is sufficient.
>
> This follows from preferring to use the smallest value for base possible.
> Doing
> that also keeps table references as small as possible. (Because references
> are
> counted in the opposite direction to base, a larger base means larger
> references.)
>
> The cost is that you have to do a two pass check: the first to find the
> newest
> reference, the second to write out the header block. I find that it's
> basically
> necessary to do two passes anyway: on the first I write out the table
> updates,
> on the second I write the header block. During that phase you want to do
> lookups anyway, so you can save the largest base from that pass. Also,
> when you
> insert anything, that tends to set the base, so it's pretty easy overall.
>
> # Tracking ACKs is Harder Than It Seems
>
> There are multiple header blocks per stream, and ACKs only identify the
> stream.
> You can't just store a stream reference (or Request-ID) against each header
> block, you have to store a tuple of stream and header block index. This
> needs
> to be explained somewhere.
>
> I decided to externalize ACKs - the QCRAM encoder takes a generic blob as
> input
> when it encodes a header block and the same generic blob to acknowledge
> it. The
> caller then has to combine stream ID and header block index in a sensible
> fashion.
>
> # Acknowledge Dmitry
>
> So I don't forget... Dmitry did a lot of work on the design team.
>
> # Dynamic Table Overhead
>
> The draft has a TODO about overhead for each dynamic entry. I added a
> field to
> every entry that allows it to know its own position in the table, but that
> is a
> simplification/optimization, and you don't really need that. The other
> per-record overheads are all the same for the decoder, with a small
> increase to
> the fixed overhead. It's a little more state for an encoder, but that is
> mostly
> because of having to track usage.
>
> I don't think that we need to change from a 32 byte overhead. This decision
> could reduce code complexity in shared QCRAM/HPACK implementations (in my
> implementation it would).
>
> # Duplication Doesn't Need to Reference the Static Table
>
> Duplication only makes sense for dynamic entries and yet the index is (I
> assume), the normal table index. That is highly suboptimal. This is worse
> because the prefix is only 5 bits for this instruction (up to 62 values),
> which
> leads to the encoding taking an extra byte always. If you take my
> suggestion
> for separate instruction spaces, this is better, but still not as good as a
> direct index into the dynamic table, starting at 0. Better yet would be a
> reverse index, starting from the end of the table, because duplication
> often
> needs to refer to the end of the table.
>
> # Need Better Advice on Referencing strategy
>
> Referencing entries near the end of the table in a new header block is
> hazardous. If you just compress as you do in HPACK, you can end up pinning
> entries in the header table, making it impossible to add new entries.
> Thus, you
> have to stop referencing entries as they get nearer to the table capacity
> limit.
>
> In my implementation I added a threshold variable that governs my
> referencing
> strategy. A portion of the header table space is marked as being
> off-limits for
> header block usage. The encoder duplicates those entries if it wants to
> compress, but won't reference them. If the table is under pressure from
> the new
> header fields being added, then it should be able to advance by at least
> this
> amount every round trip.
>
> This is a simple strategy, and probably suboptimal in various ways, but it
> seems to work out. For instance, I continuously update the cutoff as
> entries
> are inserted, so that a header block might end up referencing things that
> get
> pushed into this space by later header fields.
>
> You can imagine more advanced techniques. For instance, you might tune this
> window automatically based on the rate that the header table grows. Because
> references in that window block eviction, it should be sized to the rate of
> *desired* growth in the header table over a round trip. Taking a running
> estimate of that desired growth and allowing a margin for variance could
> produce the right value. I haven't experimented with this.
>
>


-- 
Charles 'Buck' Krasic | Software Engineer | ckrasic@google.com | +1 (408)
412-1141

--f403045d99ea24f0520564cb830b
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Thanks Martin!<div><br></div><div>I am behind in digesting=
 this, I intend to comment later today.</div><div><br></div><div>In the mea=
ntime though, have you looked at=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://github.com/krasic/=
draft-krasic-quic-hpack">QCRAM doc github repo</a>=C2=A0?=C2=A0 (Notice it =
has working diff against -04).=C2=A0 The reason I ask, is that I made updat=
es there in response to various comments around the time of the interim.=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0I think the diffs relate partially to some of your ideas.</div><d=
iv><br></div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 2:08 AM, Martin Thomson <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.thomson@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">=
martin.thomson@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left=
:1ex">I have implemented QCRAM and have a few things to comment on.<br>
<br>
My implementation is here:<br>
=C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://github.com/martinthomson/minhq/tree/master/hc" re=
l=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/<wbr>martinthomson/mi=
nhq/tree/<wbr>master/hc</a><br>
<br>
This is my first attempt at go, so this took a little longer than it might =
have<br>
otherwise. Test coverage is still a little light, though go thinks that I h=
ave<br>
pretty good coverage. There&#39;s probably still a lot to go on the corner =
cases,<br>
but I think that I&#39;ve done enough to get an idea for the complexity bum=
p.<br>
<br>
I started by implementing HPACK, which is surprisingly easy if you don&#39;=
t care<br>
about being efficient. Though I knew that I was going to add QCRAM, I made =
only<br>
minimal design concessions when building HPACK.<br>
<br>
Building QCRAM on top of HPACK took at least 50% more than just doing HPACK=
 (at<br>
a guess, HPACK took about 10-12 hours, QCRAM took closer to 20). Even thoug=
h<br>
you can reuse Huffman coding and most of the primitives, retrofitting it wa=
s<br>
tricky. My lack of familiarity with go definitely contributed a lot to that=
,<br>
but I&#39;d say that QCRAM is more difficult to implement than it seems in =
theory.<br>
<br>
I didn&#39;t implement QCRAM entirely as specified. There are a few things =
that<br>
I&#39;ll describe below that would make it either better or easier to imple=
ment (or<br>
both).<br>
<br>
<br>
# Separate Stream Roles<br>
<br>
There are actually three streams of data that are of interest, and there is=
 no<br>
clarity about those streams.<br>
<br>
1. I suggest that we use unidirectional streams in each direction for table=
<br>
updates.<br>
<br>
2. A separate stream for acknowledgments ensures that the encoder can consu=
me<br>
that separately to the decoder.<br>
<br>
3. Request/response streams. I think that we all understand these.<br>
<br>
These can be separate from the hq control stream, and they should be. Rathe=
r<br>
than pick a specific stream number, we should add a header for these stream=
s<br>
that will allow them to be identified clearly. If we do that, add strict ru=
les<br>
about cardinality.<br>
<br>
# Define Framing More Clearly<br>
<br>
The definition of the framing that is used on the control stream is unclear=
. I<br>
assume that the intent is to use HEADERS frames, but I&#39;m only really gu=
essing.<br>
If you take my suggestion for separate framing, then you can use very diffe=
rent<br>
logic for the different streams.<br>
<br>
Honestly, the overhead of framing is excessive for anything but<br>
request/response streams. I found that framing on the control stream wasn&#=
39;t<br>
necessary at all. This might depend on implementation strategy, because it<=
br>
might be easier to collect a framed thing than it is to read until you are<=
br>
blocked, then pickle that state so that you can go back to something else. =
In<br>
my implementation I hold state on the stack, so it&#39;s pretty easy.<br>
<br>
Also, it should suffice to have just a stream of varints indicating<br>
acknowledgments. Duplicates can be used to acknowledge multiple header bloc=
ks<br>
on the same stream in order.<br>
<br>
# Split the Instruction Space<br>
<br>
Having to check that only certain instructions appear on different streams =
is<br>
annoying to implement and a waste of bits. Define two separate spaces. That=
<br>
should make things much simpler: there are exactly two instructions in each=
<br>
space then (leaving aside acknowledgments, which I will cover below).<br>
<br>
# Base in Every HEADERS Frame<br>
<br>
Base (the number of inserts in the table at the start of a header block) se=
ems<br>
to be required for all HEADERS frames, including both table modification an=
d<br>
request/response streams.=C2=A0 But...<br>
<br>
# Base on the Table Update Stream<br>
<br>
You don&#39;t need base for table updates. It is more of a hazard than a he=
lp. It<br>
is easier if you treat indexing on the table update stream as in HPACK wher=
e<br>
each insert moves the reference point for the next insertion.<br>
<br>
# Remove BLOCKING<br>
<br>
The BLOCKING flag complicates the design unnecessarily. As a fixed overhead=
,<br>
pay the extra byte always. Furthermore, the table update stream will never =
need<br>
to use depends, so that further motivates having different instruction sets=
<br>
(and formats) for different streams.=C2=A0 And you don&#39;t need it...<br>
<br>
# Base and the Static Table<br>
<br>
It is not explained at all that the base is applied to the dynamic table on=
ly.<br>
That is, index 1 is a straight index into the static table and that index 6=
2<br>
will use the current number of inserts and the base to determine the actual=
<br>
index into the dynamic table (this is the first table entry only when the<b=
r>
number of table inserts and base are the same, if the base is smaller, then=
 it<br>
will be further along the table).<br>
<br>
To be clear, my logic for finding entries is:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 if i =3D=3D 0: error<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 if i &lt;=3D len(staticTable): return staticTable[i-1]<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 delta =3D tableBase - base<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 if delta &lt; 0: error<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 return dynamicTable[i - len(staticTable) - 1 + delta]<br>
<br>
# Remove Depends<br>
<br>
Depends is useless. I did not implement it. Base is sufficient.<br>
<br>
This follows from preferring to use the smallest value for base possible. D=
oing<br>
that also keeps table references as small as possible. (Because references =
are<br>
counted in the opposite direction to base, a larger base means larger<br>
references.)<br>
<br>
The cost is that you have to do a two pass check: the first to find the new=
est<br>
reference, the second to write out the header block. I find that it&#39;s b=
asically<br>
necessary to do two passes anyway: on the first I write out the table updat=
es,<br>
on the second I write the header block. During that phase you want to do<br=
>
lookups anyway, so you can save the largest base from that pass. Also, when=
 you<br>
insert anything, that tends to set the base, so it&#39;s pretty easy overal=
l.<br>
<br>
# Tracking ACKs is Harder Than It Seems<br>
<br>
There are multiple header blocks per stream, and ACKs only identify the str=
eam.<br>
You can&#39;t just store a stream reference (or Request-ID) against each he=
ader<br>
block, you have to store a tuple of stream and header block index. This nee=
ds<br>
to be explained somewhere.<br>
<br>
I decided to externalize ACKs - the QCRAM encoder takes a generic blob as i=
nput<br>
when it encodes a header block and the same generic blob to acknowledge it.=
 The<br>
caller then has to combine stream ID and header block index in a sensible<b=
r>
fashion.<br>
<br>
# Acknowledge Dmitry<br>
<br>
So I don&#39;t forget... Dmitry did a lot of work on the design team.<br>
<br>
# Dynamic Table Overhead<br>
<br>
The draft has a TODO about overhead for each dynamic entry. I added a field=
 to<br>
every entry that allows it to know its own position in the table, but that =
is a<br>
simplification/optimization, and you don&#39;t really need that. The other<=
br>
per-record overheads are all the same for the decoder, with a small increas=
e to<br>
the fixed overhead. It&#39;s a little more state for an encoder, but that i=
s mostly<br>
because of having to track usage.<br>
<br>
I don&#39;t think that we need to change from a 32 byte overhead. This deci=
sion<br>
could reduce code complexity in shared QCRAM/HPACK implementations (in my<b=
r>
implementation it would).<br>
<br>
# Duplication Doesn&#39;t Need to Reference the Static Table<br>
<br>
Duplication only makes sense for dynamic entries and yet the index is (I<br=
>
assume), the normal table index. That is highly suboptimal. This is worse<b=
r>
because the prefix is only 5 bits for this instruction (up to 62 values), w=
hich<br>
leads to the encoding taking an extra byte always. If you take my suggestio=
n<br>
for separate instruction spaces, this is better, but still not as good as a=
<br>
direct index into the dynamic table, starting at 0. Better yet would be a<b=
r>
reverse index, starting from the end of the table, because duplication ofte=
n<br>
needs to refer to the end of the table.<br>
<br>
# Need Better Advice on Referencing strategy<br>
<br>
Referencing entries near the end of the table in a new header block is<br>
hazardous. If you just compress as you do in HPACK, you can end up pinning<=
br>
entries in the header table, making it impossible to add new entries. Thus,=
 you<br>
have to stop referencing entries as they get nearer to the table capacity<b=
r>
limit.<br>
<br>
In my implementation I added a threshold variable that governs my referenci=
ng<br>
strategy. A portion of the header table space is marked as being off-limits=
 for<br>
header block usage. The encoder duplicates those entries if it wants to<br>
compress, but won&#39;t reference them. If the table is under pressure from=
 the new<br>
header fields being added, then it should be able to advance by at least th=
is<br>
amount every round trip.<br>
<br>
This is a simple strategy, and probably suboptimal in various ways, but it<=
br>
seems to work out. For instance, I continuously update the cutoff as entrie=
s<br>
are inserted, so that a header block might end up referencing things that g=
et<br>
pushed into this space by later header fields.<br>
<br>
You can imagine more advanced techniques. For instance, you might tune this=
<br>
window automatically based on the rate that the header table grows. Because=
<br>
references in that window block eviction, it should be sized to the rate of=
<br>
*desired* growth in the header table over a round trip. Taking a running<br=
>
estimate of that desired growth and allowing a margin for variance could<br=
>
produce the right value. I haven&#39;t experimented with this.<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class=
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From: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 13:20:52 -0500
Message-ID: <CAKcm_gO-2zejQnLCCzHvvG=gP70o9EAUQz8v2oYUiK=nFjyUCw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
To: "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>
Cc: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
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--f403045fb1c8e206c30564cb9713
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One issue with the current encryption proposal is you can't use hardware
crypto offload for the bulk encryption because the packet number has to be
encrypted after the bulk data.

Any suggestions on how to fix that?

On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 12:42 PM, Salz, Rich <rsalz@akamai.com> wrote:

> Thanks for the summary.  Why do you want to do this?
>
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">One issue with the current encryption proposal is you can&=
#39;t use hardware crypto offload for the bulk encryption because the packe=
t number has to be encrypted after the bulk data.<div><br></div><div>Any su=
ggestions on how to fix that?</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><di=
v class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 12:42 PM, Salz, Rich <span d=
ir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rsalz@akamai.com" target=3D"_blank">rsalz@=
akamai.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div class=3D"m_57026485837027692WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks for the summary.=C2=A0 Why do you want to do =
this?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>

--f403045fb1c8e206c30564cb9713--


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From: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 13:32:03 -0500
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Subject: Re: The Recovery Period
To: Patrick McManus <pmcmanus@mozilla.com>
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

I think this is consistent, but possibly a psuedocode definition of
InRecovery() is warranted as well?

InRecovery()
  return largest_acked_packet <= end_of_recovery

Or maybe end_of_recovery is a slightly confusing term?

On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 12:48 PM, Patrick McManus <pmcmanus@mozilla.com>
wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> 4.3 of the recovery draft:
>
> Recovery is a period of time beginning with detection of a lost packet.
> Because QUIC retransmits stream data and control frames, not packets, it
> defines the end of recovery as a packet sent after the start of recovery
> being acknowledged.
>
> and then in 4.7.2
>
> end_of_recovery: The largest packet number sent when QUIC detects a loss.
> When a larger packet is acknowledged, QUIC exits recovery.
> and then in 4.7.6
>
> OnPacketsLost() [...]
>  end_of_recovery = largest_sent_packet
>
> I think these are inconsistent.. essentially 4.7.2 and 4.7.6 should be
> "next packet number sent" not "largest currently sent" - true?
>
>
>
>
>

--001a11459092de0f510564cbbf85
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<div dir=3D"ltr">I think this is consistent, but possibly a psuedocode defi=
nition of InRecovery() is warranted as well?<div><br></div><div>InRecovery(=
)</div><div>=C2=A0 return largest_acked_packet &lt;=3D end_of_recovery</div=
><div><br></div><div>Or maybe end_of_recovery is a slightly confusing term?=
</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Feb=
 9, 2018 at 12:48 PM, Patrick McManus <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:pmcmanus@mozilla.com" target=3D"_blank">pmcmanus@mozilla.com</a>&gt;</sp=
an> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi All,<=
/div><div><br></div><div>4.3 of the recovery draft:</div><div><span style=
=3D"font-family:monospace,monospace"><br></span></div><div><span style=3D"f=
ont-family:monospace,monospace">Recovery is a period of time beginning with=
 detection of a lost packet.=20
 Because QUIC retransmits stream data and control frames, not packets,=20
it defines the end of recovery as a packet sent after the start of=20
recovery being acknowledged.=C2=A0</span></div><div><br></div><div>and then=
 in 4.7.2</div><div></div><div><br></div><div><dt><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:monospace,monospace">end_of_recovery:</span></dt><span style=3D"font-fami=
ly:monospace,monospace">
</span><dd><span style=3D"font-family:monospace,monospace">The largest pack=
et number sent when QUIC detects a loss.  When a larger packet is acknowled=
ged, QUIC exits recovery.</span></dd><br></div><div>and then in 4.7.6</div>=
<div></div><div><pre>OnPacketsLost() [...]<br>=C2=A0end_of_recovery =3D lar=
gest_sent_packet</pre></div><div>I think these are inconsistent.. essential=
ly 4.7.2 and 4.7.6 should be &quot;next packet number sent&quot; not &quot;=
largest currently sent&quot; - true?</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><di=
v><br></div><div><br></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

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CC: "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
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To: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>, "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>
CC: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
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From: David Benjamin <davidben@chromium.org>
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2018 19:38:57 +0000
Message-ID: <CAF8qwaBm6DRpS6eUthSMithsbUq-NMNhBND7RaDUFfzP0tAxnQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
To: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
Cc: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
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Your primary worry here was the extra block cipher operation, right? By
moving the packet number into the plaintext, this proposal increases the
length, which will cost that same one extra block cipher operation, no?

It is one block operation under the same key, rather than a different key
so I suppose there are minuscule cache footprint wins (one symmetric key is
16 or 32 bytes). But the cost is per-packet (!) bandwidth and complexity. I
do not see how this could be worth it. Note that, for AES, many CPUs have
dedicated instructions for it already.

> Clear separation of concerns results if we don=E2=80=99t overload the pac=
ket
number as the nonce. Connection migration and multi-path are optional
features and we pay no extra compute cost for most connections that are not
impacted by unlnkability. Nonce field becomes optional for crypto that
doesn=E2=80=99t need it and can grow to larger size as needed for bulk tran=
sfers to
prevent frequent key rollovers (say in datacenter scenarios).

You're not going to find AEADs that don't require a nonce. Encryption must
not produce the same ciphertext twice for the same plaintext, so you need
some input to diversify them. That input is the nonce. Nonces also are not
variable-length, so you don't get to arbitrarily grow them. (AES-GCM per
spec is variable length, but that's a spec bug. If you size it above 96
bits, it's as if you randomized it and your nonce space crashes per
birthday.)

It is also harmful to separate the two concerns. When you are building a
transport, derive the nonce from a sequence number. TLS 1.2 AES-GCM
separated them, which was a mistake. It's less efficient (the world wasted
quite a lot of bandwidth due to this), and more error-prone. There was
nothing stopping implementations from sending the same nonce or generating
nonces randomly (the AEADs we use don't have large enough nonces for that),
and indeed some did just that. If you use some sort of sequence number, you
can lean on existing work both to filter out the obvious implementation
mistakes and to avoid sending unnecessary data.

On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 12:38 PM Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.co=
m>
wrote:

> Let me try to summarize the proposal again:
>
>
>
>    1. Packet number is in the encrypted portion of the header and is no
>    longer used as the nonce. It is encoded as a variable length number. A=
lways
>    starts at 0.
>       1. No ossification of PN
>       2. No linkability using PN
>       3. Allows for growth beyond 64 bits if needed in future
>    2. The nonce is in the clear in plaintext header. It is generated *per
>    path* as a secure random number. Call this the =E2=80=9Cstarting value=
=E2=80=9D. Both
>    sides MUST initialize the =E2=80=9Cstarting value=E2=80=9D nonce *per =
path*. Within a
>    path it grows monotonically (to avoid repeats just like PN today) and =
can
>    include short random jumps periodically so that middleboxes cannot ass=
ume
>    anything about the field. Since nonce has nothing to do with PN the ju=
mps
>    don=E2=80=99t add any complexity to transport logic. Jumps are for gre=
asing and
>    preventing ossification. When the nonce rolls over and reaches close t=
o the
>    =E2=80=9Cstarting value=E2=80=9D, key rollover must happen. At high da=
ta rates the nonce
>    field can be 64-bits to prevent frequent key rollover. For crypto that
>    doesn=E2=80=99t need nonces, the field can be omitted.
>       1. No ossification because there is no pre-determined sequence to
>       the nonce.
>       2. In gQUIC and the RFC as defined the nonce is a simple sequence
>       that increments by one, so this is no worse off in terms of securit=
y. It is
>       non-repeating.
>       3. No linkability because different paths start at a completely
>       different random number. If repeating is a concern then different p=
aths use
>       different keys. Carries forward to not just connection migration bu=
t
>       mutli-path.
>       4. Supports key rollover just like gQUIC and currently defined
>       draft RFC.
>       5. Allows for omitting the nonce when we use crypto that doesn=E2=
=80=99t
>       need it.
>       6. Allows for larger nonces for high data rates.
>       7. It doesn=E2=80=99t preclude any other type of non-repeating nonc=
es
>       without having to modify the RFC! So implementations that want to u=
se
>       cryptographic nonces can still do so.
>
>
>
> The downsides:
>
>    1. Even with variable length encoding the extra PN field is more space
>    used per packet when a nonce is required. I think we can do with 2 byt=
es in
>    version 1.
>    2. It=E2=80=99s not perfect unlinkabiltiy but I have yet to see any so=
lution
>    that can provide this. A simple time based analysis using machine lear=
ning
>    will allow flow correlation especially for connection migration. The I=
P
>    addresses in the clear allow for a high degree of correlation. There i=
s
>    also the application sending pattern and other signals that could be u=
sed.
>
>
>
> *From:* Eric Rescorla [mailto:ekr@rtfm.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, February 9, 2018 5:52 AM
> *To:* Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
> *Cc:* huitema <huitema@huitema.net>; quic@ietf.org
>
>
> *Subject:* Re: Packet number encryption
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 9:40 PM, Praveen Balasubramanian <
> pravb@microsoft.com> wrote:
>
> Actually taking a step back what if we don=E2=80=99t we overloaded packet=
 number
> as the nonce?
>
>
>
> Can we:
>
>    1. Put packet number as a separate variable length field in the
>    encrypted portion of the header. This allows for growth beyond 64 bits=
 in
>    future and completely avoids ossification. For short lived flows varia=
ble
>    length encoding leads to minimal space overhead.
>    2. Put a separate plaintext nonce which starts out as a secure random
>    number and monotonically increases as short random jumps (every packet=
 or
>    every few packets) and could then rollover. This will prevent linkabil=
ity
>    and scales to multi-path as well. No major compute overhead. We can al=
so
>    make the nonce optional for crypto algorithms that do not need a nonce
>    saving more space.
>
>
>
> I'm not sure how to do #2 safely and efficiently. The primary concern is
> that short random jumps don't actually prevent linkability because the hi=
gh
> order bits don't change and long random jumps are effectively randomly
> sampling out of the nonce space, and you start to run into birthday
> problems. Additionally, the cheapest PRNGs are basically ciphers in count=
er
> mode, so at best you're going to get a small amount of overhead reduction
> by getting multiple jump computations out of a single block, though if yo=
u
> use 96-bit jumps, you only get 25% savings...
>
>
>
> -Ekr
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Some MSB of the nonce could be used for signaling reorder to the network
> if needed. I don=E2=80=99t have the historical context for overloading of=
 PN as the
> nonce so pardon me if un-overloading option was discussed and ruled out
> before.
>
>
>
> *From:* QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Praveen
> Balasubramanian
> *Sent:* Thursday, February 8, 2018 5:51 PM
> *To:* huitema <huitema@huitema.net>; quic@ietf.org
> *Subject:* RE: Packet number encryption
>
>
>
> >> and using separate packet sequences for each path
>
> This alone prevents linkability right?
>
>
>
> >> The packet number on each path will start at 1 (or maybe 0 ;-).
>
> Is supporting multiple paths at the same time a goal? If yes, then yes al=
l
> paths will need to have separate tracking and ACK state and congestion
> control etc. I thought this is not part of V1 RFC. If its just one
> additional path for connection migration scenario then all you need is a
> (random) jump to a offset in packet number space for the new path so that
> the few packets in the old path can continue for a little bit. This works
> with just one ACK space so no implementation complexity.
>
>
>
> >> 2) Or, leaving the packet number in the clear but using different
> encryption contexts for each path, and using separate packet sequences fo=
r
> each path.
> In addition if the value in the clear was obfuscated with an XOR transfor=
m
> it will help prevent ossification. The obfuscation is not meant to guard
> against later analysis that reveals the packet numbers - why do we care
> about that. It is meant to grease the space and not make the numbers seri=
al
> so middleboxes cannot assume ordering etc.
>
>
>
> All said if I am alone in being concerned about the perf hit then I=E2=80=
=99d say
> go on with option 1.
>
>
>
> *From:* QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org <quic-bounces@ietf.org>] *On
> Behalf Of *Christian Huitema
> *Sent:* Thursday, February 8, 2018 3:54 PM
> *To:* quic@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: Packet number encryption
>
>
>
> On 2/8/2018 1:13 PM, Mike Bishop wrote:
>
> #2 won=E2=80=99t work.  The packet number is an input to the AEAD nonce, =
so you
> have to get to the packet number before you can decrypt the payload.  It
> can=E2=80=99t be based on anything internal to the encrypted packet.
>
>
>
> In Martin=E2=80=99s proposal, it=E2=80=99s using a combination of the enc=
rypted payload
> (which requires nothing to access) and some stored state on each endpoint=
,
> which requires only the Connection ID to look up.  You want the thing you
> XOR by to be constantly changing, or it becomes easier to look at sequenc=
es
> of obfuscated packet numbers and start drawing inferences about what the
> XOR value is.  If overhead is the primary concern, I think there are a
> couple approaches that might allow you to precompute values and amortize
> the cost of doing the encryption step.  (At the cost of keeping the table
> of precomputed values, of course.)
>
>
>
> I still think Jana=E2=80=99s pushing in the right direction here:  Let=E2=
=80=99s agree on
> goals, and then see if we can craft a design that meets those goals.  I
> hear you saying that low overhead is a goal, which I think we can all agr=
ee
> on.  I also think I hear you saying that 1-1.5% overhead is too high, but
> it sounds like there=E2=80=99s less agreement on that.  You also raise an
> interesting point that some clients will care less about linkability
> because they will never intentionally migrate.
>
>
> I think Victor said it best, "Obfuscation is just encryption done poorly.=
"
> Either we encrypt, or we don't. But there is no such thing as an
> obfuscation middle-ground. Obfuscation would just be a speed bump, easily
> broken. It won't provide privacy, and it won't prevent linkability.
>
> As far as I am concerned, there are only two designs that prevent
> linkability:
>
> 1) Martin's PR, in which the packet number is encrypted using sensible
> crypto;
>
> 2) Or, leaving the packet number in the clear but using different
> encryption contexts for each path, and using separate packet sequences fo=
r
> each path.
>
> The second option requires more computation when explicitly setting up a
> new path. The connection ID would be used as part of the "salt" when
> deriving connection contexts. The packet number on each path will start a=
t
> 1 (or maybe 0 ;-). This requires maintaining separate SACK dashboards for
> each path/Connection-ID, and constraining ACK to be per/path, or
> alternatively adding a PATH-ACK frame that indicates the path for which
> packets are acked.
>
> The pros and cons of the two options are easy to get:
>
> 1) Option 2 does not require the cost of encrypting every packet, thus pe=
r
> packet processing will be maybe 1% faster than option 1.
>
> 2) Option 2 requires computing encryption contexts for each path, which i=
s
> more complex than option 1, but the cost will be amortized over the
> duration of the path.
>
> 3) Option 2 requires more complex data structures and ACK management, thu=
s
> increasing the chances that something goes wrong.
>
> 4) Option 2 does nothing against packet number ossification. The packet
> number effectively becomes part of the invariants.
>
> In short, the only advantage of option 2 is to avoid a single symmetric
> encryption operation per packet, while making the code significantly more
> complex, and at the cost of not protecting against PN ossification. The w=
ay
> I see that, there is hardly any debate.
>
> -- Christian Huitema
>
>
>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Your primary worry here was the extra block cipher operati=
on, right? By moving the packet number into the plaintext, this proposal in=
creases the length, which will cost that same one extra block cipher operat=
ion, no?<div><br></div><div><div>It is one block operation under the same k=
ey, rather than a different key so I suppose there are minuscule=C2=A0cache=
 footprint wins (one symmetric key is 16 or 32 bytes). But the cost is per-=
packet (!) bandwidth and complexity. I do not see how this could be worth i=
t.=C2=A0Note that, for AES, many CPUs have dedicated instructions for it al=
ready.<br></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><br></div><div>&gt;=C2=A0C=
lear separation of concerns results if we don=E2=80=99t overload the packet=
 number as the nonce. Connection migration and multi-path are optional feat=
ures and we pay no extra compute cost for most connections that are not imp=
acted by unlnkability. Nonce field becomes optional for crypto that doesn=
=E2=80=99t need it and can grow to larger size as needed for bulk transfers=
 to prevent frequent key rollovers (say in datacenter scenarios).</div><div=
><br></div></div></div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>You&#39;re not going to find A=
EADs that don&#39;t require a nonce. Encryption must not produce the same c=
iphertext twice for the same plaintext, so you need some input to diversify=
 them. That input is the nonce. Nonces also are not variable-length, so you=
 don&#39;t get to arbitrarily grow them. (AES-GCM per spec is variable leng=
th, but that&#39;s a spec bug. If you size it above 96 bits, it&#39;s as if=
 you randomized it and your nonce space crashes per birthday.)</div><div><b=
r></div><div>It is also harmful to separate the two concerns.=C2=A0When you=
 are building a transport, derive the nonce from a sequence number. TLS 1.2=
 AES-GCM separated them, which was a mistake. It&#39;s less efficient (the =
world wasted quite a lot of bandwidth due to this), and more error-prone. T=
here was nothing stopping implementations from sending the same nonce or ge=
nerating nonces randomly (the AEADs we use don&#39;t have large enough nonc=
es for that), and indeed some did just that. If you use some sort of sequen=
ce number, you can lean on existing work both to filter out the obvious imp=
lementation mistakes and to avoid sending unnecessary data.</div></div><div=
 dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div><div><br></div><div><div><div><div><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 12:38 PM Praveen B=
alasubramanian &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pravb@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>pravb@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"=
>





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_-7757426988660939291m_-5657091935273959422WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Let me try to summarize the proposal again:<u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<ol style=3D"margin-top:0in" start=3D"1" type=3D"1">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal">Packet number is in the encrypted portion of the he=
ader and is no longer used as the nonce. It is encoded as a variable length=
 number. Always starts at 0.<u></u><u></u>
<ol style=3D"margin-top:0in" start=3D"1" type=3D"a">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal">No ossification of PN<u></u><u></u></li><li class=
=3D"MsoNormal">No linkability using PN<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal">Allows for growth beyond 64 bits if needed in future<u></u><u></u></l=
i></ol>
</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">The nonce is in the clear in plaintext header.=
 It is generated
<i>per path</i> as a secure random number. Call this the =E2=80=9Cstarting =
value=E2=80=9D. Both sides MUST initialize the =E2=80=9Cstarting value=E2=
=80=9D nonce
<i>per path</i>. Within a path it grows monotonically (to avoid repeats jus=
t like PN today) and can include short random jumps periodically so that mi=
ddleboxes cannot assume anything about the field. Since nonce has nothing t=
o do with PN the jumps don=E2=80=99t add
 any complexity to transport logic. Jumps are for greasing and preventing o=
ssification. When the nonce rolls over and reaches close to the =E2=80=9Cst=
arting value=E2=80=9D, key rollover must happen. At high data rates the non=
ce field can be 64-bits to prevent frequent key
 rollover. For crypto that doesn=E2=80=99t need nonces, the field can be om=
itted. <u></u><u></u>
<ol style=3D"margin-top:0in" start=3D"1" type=3D"a">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal">No ossification because there is no pre-determined =
sequence to the nonce.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">In gQUIC a=
nd the RFC as defined the nonce is a simple sequence that increments by one=
, so this is no worse off in terms of security. It is non-repeating.<u></u>=
<u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">No linkability because different paths =
start at a completely different random number. If repeating is a concern th=
en different paths use different keys. Carries forward to not just connecti=
on migration but
 mutli-path. <u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">Supports key rollov=
er just like gQUIC and currently defined draft RFC.<u></u><u></u></li><li c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal">Allows for omitting the nonce when we use crypto that do=
esn=E2=80=99t need it.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">Allows for=
 larger nonces for high data rates.
<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">It doesn=E2=80=99t preclude any =
other type of non-repeating nonces without having to modify the RFC! So imp=
lementations that want to use cryptographic nonces can still do so.
<u></u><u></u></li></ol>
</li></ol>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The downsides:<u></u><u></u></p>
<ol style=3D"margin-top:0in" start=3D"1" type=3D"1">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal">Even with variable length encoding the extra PN fie=
ld is more space used per packet when a nonce is required. I think we can d=
o with 2 bytes in version 1.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">It=
=E2=80=99s not perfect unlinkabiltiy but I have yet to see any solution tha=
t can provide this. A simple time based analysis using machine learning wil=
l allow flow correlation especially for connection migration.
 The IP addresses in the clear allow for a high degree of correlation. Ther=
e is also the application sending pattern and other signals that could be u=
sed.
<u></u><u></u></li></ol>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Eric Rescorla [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto=
:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 9, 2018 5:52 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Praveen Balasubramanian &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pravb@microsoft.co=
m" target=3D"_blank">pravb@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> huitema &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:huitema@huitema.net" target=3D"_bl=
ank">huitema@huitema.net</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">quic@ietf.org</a></p></div></div><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"bl=
ue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"m_-7757426988660939291m_-565709193527395=
9422WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Packet number encryption<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><=
div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"m_-77574269=
88660939291m_-5657091935273959422WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 9:40 PM, Praveen Balasubraman=
ian &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pravb@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank">pravb@micr=
osoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Actually taking a step back what if we don=E2=80=99t=
 we overloaded packet number as the nonce?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Can we:<u></u><u></u></p>
<ol start=3D"1" type=3D"1">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal">
Put packet number as a separate variable length field in the encrypted port=
ion of the header. This allows for growth beyond 64 bits in future and comp=
letely avoids ossification. For short lived flows variable length encoding =
leads to minimal space overhead.
<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
Put a separate plaintext nonce which starts out as a secure random number a=
nd monotonically increases as short random jumps (every packet or every few=
 packets) and could then rollover. This will prevent linkability and scales=
 to multi-path as well. No major
 compute overhead. We can also make the nonce optional for crypto algorithm=
s that do not need a nonce saving more space.<u></u><u></u></li></ol>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I&#39;m not sure how to do #2 safely and efficiently=
. The primary concern is that short random jumps don&#39;t actually prevent=
 linkability because the high order bits don&#39;t change and long random j=
umps are effectively randomly sampling out of
 the nonce space, and you start to run into birthday problems. Additionally=
, the cheapest PRNGs are basically ciphers in counter mode, so at best you&=
#39;re going to get a small amount of overhead reduction by getting multipl=
e jump computations out of a single
 block, though if you use 96-bit jumps, you only get 25% savings...<u></u><=
u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">-Ekr<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Some MSB of the nonce could be used for signaling re=
order to the network if needed. I don=E2=80=99t have the historical context=
 for overloading of PN as the nonce so pardon me if un-overloading
 option was discussed and ruled out before.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> QUIC [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bou=
nces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Praveen Balasubramanian<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 8, 2018 5:51 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> huitema &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:huitema@huitema.net" target=3D"_bl=
ank">huitema@huitema.net</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Packet number encryption<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&gt;&gt; and using separate packet sequences for eac=
h path<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This alone prevents linkability right?<u></u><u></u>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&gt;&gt; The packet number on each path will start a=
t 1 (or maybe 0 ;-).<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Is supporting multiple paths at the same time a goal=
? If yes, then yes all paths will need to have separate tracking and ACK st=
ate and congestion control etc. I thought this is
 not part of V1 RFC. If its just one additional path for connection migrati=
on scenario then all you need is a (random) jump to a offset in packet numb=
er space for the new path so that the few packets in the old path can conti=
nue for a little bit. This works
 with just one ACK space so no implementation complexity.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&gt;&gt; 2) Or, leaving the packet number in the cle=
ar but using different encryption contexts for each path, and using separat=
e packet sequences for each path.<br>
In addition if the value in the clear was obfuscated with an XOR transform =
it will help prevent ossification. The obfuscation is not meant to guard ag=
ainst later analysis that reveals the packet numbers - why do we care about=
 that. It is meant to grease the
 space and not make the numbers serial so middleboxes cannot assume orderin=
g etc.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">All said if I am alone in being concerned about the =
perf hit then I=E2=80=99d say go on with option 1.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> QUIC [<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bounces@ie=
tf.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Christian Huitema<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 8, 2018 3:54 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic@ietf.org=
</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Packet number encryption<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>On 2/8/2018 1:13 PM, Mike Bishop wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">#2 won=E2=80=99t work.=C2=A0 The packet number is an=
 input to the AEAD nonce, so you have to get to the packet number before yo=
u can decrypt the payload.=C2=A0 It can=E2=80=99t be based on anything inte=
rnal
 to the encrypted packet.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In Martin=E2=80=99s proposal, it=E2=80=99s using a c=
ombination of the encrypted payload (which requires nothing to access) and =
some stored state on each endpoint, which requires only the Connection
 ID to look up.=C2=A0 You want the thing you XOR by to be constantly changi=
ng, or it becomes easier to look at sequences of obfuscated packet numbers =
and start drawing inferences about what the XOR value is.=C2=A0 If overhead=
 is the primary concern, I think there are
 a couple approaches that might allow you to precompute values and amortize=
 the cost of doing the encryption step.=C2=A0 (At the cost of keeping the t=
able of precomputed values, of course.)<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I still think Jana=E2=80=99s pushing in the right di=
rection here:=C2=A0 Let=E2=80=99s agree on goals, and then see if we can cr=
aft a design that meets those goals.=C2=A0 I hear you saying that low overh=
ead
 is a goal, which I think we can all agree on.=C2=A0 I also think I hear yo=
u saying that 1-1.5% overhead is too high, but it sounds like there=E2=80=
=99s less agreement on that.=C2=A0 You also raise an interesting point that=
 some clients will care less about linkability because
 they will never intentionally migrate.<u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
I think Victor said it best, &quot;Obfuscation is just encryption done poor=
ly.&quot; Either we encrypt, or we don&#39;t. But there is no such thing as=
 an obfuscation middle-ground. Obfuscation would just be a speed bump, easi=
ly broken. It won&#39;t provide privacy, and it won&#39;t
 prevent linkability.<br>
<br>
As far as I am concerned, there are only two designs that prevent linkabili=
ty:<br>
<br>
1) Martin&#39;s PR, in which the packet number is encrypted using sensible =
crypto;<br>
<br>
2) Or, leaving the packet number in the clear but using different encryptio=
n contexts for each path, and using separate packet sequences for each path=
.<br>
<br>
The second option requires more computation when explicitly setting up a ne=
w path. The connection ID would be used as part of the &quot;salt&quot; whe=
n deriving connection contexts. The packet number on each path will start a=
t 1 (or maybe 0 ;-). This requires maintaining
 separate SACK dashboards for each path/Connection-ID, and constraining ACK=
 to be per/path, or alternatively adding a PATH-ACK frame that indicates th=
e path for which packets are acked.<br>
<br>
The pros and cons of the two options are easy to get:<br>
<br>
1) Option 2 does not require the cost of encrypting every packet, thus per =
packet processing will be maybe 1% faster than option 1.
<br>
<br>
2) Option 2 requires computing encryption contexts for each path, which is =
more complex than option 1, but the cost will be amortized over the duratio=
n of the path.<br>
<br>
3) Option 2 requires more complex data structures and ACK management, thus =
increasing the chances that something goes wrong.<br>
<br>
4) Option 2 does nothing against packet number ossification. The packet num=
ber effectively becomes part of the invariants.<br>
<br>
In short, the only advantage of option 2 is to avoid a single symmetric enc=
ryption operation per packet, while making the code significantly more comp=
lex, and at the cost of not protecting against PN ossification. The way I s=
ee that, there is hardly any debate.<br>
<br>
-- Christian Huitema<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></=
div></div>

--f4f5e80afa48a91dc30564ccae95--


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From: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
To: David Benjamin <davidben@chromium.org>
CC: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
Subject: RE: Packet number encryption
Thread-Topic: Packet number encryption
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From nobody Fri Feb  9 12:24:26 2018
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you're right - its ok. I missed the "when a larger" part (reading it as
"when it is recovered").

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<div dir="ltr">you&#39;re right - its ok. I missed the &quot;when a larger&quot; part (reading it as &quot;when it is recovered&quot;).<br></div>

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From nobody Fri Feb  9 12:37:00 2018
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Some comments below, but

*tldr;*  Sorry for crossed wires, but I think much of what you raise is
addressed in 3.2
<https://krasic.github.io/draft-krasic-quic-hpack/draft-krasic-quic-qcram.html#rfc.section.3.2>
, 3.3
<https://krasic.github.io/draft-krasic-quic-hpack/draft-krasic-quic-qcram.html#rfc.section.3.3>
and 4.2
<https://krasic.github.io/draft-krasic-quic-hpack/draft-krasic-quic-qcram.html#rfc.section.4.2>
of
the editor's copy
<https://krasic.github.io/draft-krasic-quic-hpack/#go.draft-krasic-quic-qcram.html>
(changes were announced on this list
<https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/quic/CS-guyGGwgTXUMr3I2BfxSqUtSg/?qid=730e62053d1db65f86e00c822184f971>
).

On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 2:08 AM, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
wrote:

> I have implemented QCRAM and have a few things to comment on.
>
> My implementation is here:
>   https://github.com/martinthomson/minhq/tree/master/hc
>
> This is my first attempt at go, so this took a little longer than it might
> have
> otherwise. Test coverage is still a little light, though go thinks that I
> have
> pretty good coverage. There's probably still a lot to go on the corner
> cases,
> but I think that I've done enough to get an idea for the complexity bump.
>
> I started by implementing HPACK, which is surprisingly easy if you don't
> care
> about being efficient. Though I knew that I was going to add QCRAM, I made
> only
> minimal design concessions when building HPACK.
>
> Building QCRAM on top of HPACK took at least 50% more than just doing
> HPACK (at
> a guess, HPACK took about 10-12 hours, QCRAM took closer to 20). Even
> though
> you can reuse Huffman coding and most of the primitives, retrofitting it
> was
> tricky. My lack of familiarity with go definitely contributed a lot to
> that,
> but I'd say that QCRAM is more difficult to implement than it seems in
> theory.
>
> I didn't implement QCRAM entirely as specified. There are a few things that
> I'll describe below that would make it either better or easier to
> implement (or
> both).
>
>
> # Separate Stream Roles
>
> There are actually three streams of data that are of interest, and there
> is no
> clarity about those streams.
>
> 1. I suggest that we use unidirectional streams in each direction for table
> updates.



> 2. A separate stream for acknowledgments ensures that the encoder can
> consume
> that separately to the decoder.
>

I have a hard time seeing a practical difference, but sure.


>
> 3. Request/response streams. I think that we all understand these.
>
> These can be separate from the hq control stream, and they should be.
> Rather
> than pick a specific stream number, we should add a header for these
> streams
> that will allow them to be identified clearly. If we do that, add strict
> rules
> about cardinality.
>



>
> # Define Framing More Clearly
>
> The definition of the framing that is used on the control stream is
> unclear. I
> assume that the intent is to use HEADERS frames, but I'm only really
> guessing.
> If you take my suggestion for separate framing, then you can use very
> different
> logic for the different streams.
>
> Honestly, the overhead of framing is excessive for anything but
> request/response streams. I found that framing on the control stream wasn't
> necessary at all. This might depend on implementation strategy, because it
> might be easier to collect a framed thing than it is to read until you are
> blocked, then pickle that state so that you can go back to something else.
> In
> my implementation I hold state on the stack, so it's pretty easy.
>
> Also, it should suffice to have just a stream of varints indicating
> acknowledgments. Duplicates can be used to acknowledge multiple header
> blocks
> on the same stream in order.
>
> # Split the Instruction Space
>
> Having to check that only certain instructions appear on different streams
> is
> annoying to implement and a waste of bits. Define two separate spaces. That
> should make things much simpler: there are exactly two instructions in each
> space then (leaving aside acknowledgments, which I will cover below).
>
> # Base in Every HEADERS Frame
>
> Base (the number of inserts in the table at the start of a header block)
> seems
> to be required for all HEADERS frames, including both table modification
> and
> request/response streams.  But...
>
>
FWIW, in the editor's copy there was already a change that the prefix is
only for request-response streams (see 3.2
<https://krasic.github.io/draft-krasic-quic-hpack/draft-krasic-quic-qcram.html#rfc.section.3.2>
 and 3.3
<https://krasic.github.io/draft-krasic-quic-hpack/draft-krasic-quic-qcram.html#rfc.section.3.3>
)


> # Base on the Table Update Stream
>
> You don't need base for table updates. It is more of a hazard than a help.
> It
> is easier if you treat indexing on the table update stream as in HPACK
> where
> each insert moves the reference point for the next insertion.
>

Yep, see above.


>
> # Remove BLOCKING
>
> The BLOCKING flag complicates the design unnecessarily. As a fixed
> overhead,
> pay the extra byte always.


I disagree.  Fixed overheads in every header block do really hurt.   Close
to 1% per byte.   Since blocking is less than 10% of blocks, I think your
proposal is a material waste.



> Furthermore, the table update stream will never need
> to use depends, so that further motivates having different instruction sets
> (and formats) for different streams.  And you don't need it...
>
> This is true, and was already addressed as mentioned above.



> # Base and the Static Table
>
> It is not explained at all that the base is applied to the dynamic table
> only.
>

afrind@ pointed this out Jan. 24 in a design committee thread (About
simplifying QCRAM further.)    The editors copy had significant work to try
and clarify these points.   Again sections 3.2 and 3.3.  Also in response
to earlier feedback, Section 4.2
<https://krasic.github.io/draft-krasic-quic-hpack/draft-krasic-quic-qcram.html#rfc.section.4.2>,
has a lot of new implementation guidance.



> That is, index 1 is a straight index into the static table and that index
> 62
> will use the current number of inserts and the base to determine the actual
> index into the dynamic table (this is the first table entry only when the
> number of table inserts and base are the same, if the base is smaller,
> then it
> will be further along the table).
>
> To be clear, my logic for finding entries is:
>
>     if i == 0: error
>     if i <= len(staticTable): return staticTable[i-1]
>     delta = tableBase - base
>     if delta < 0: error
>     return dynamicTable[i - len(staticTable) - 1 + delta]
>
> # Remove Depends
>
> Depends is useless. I did not implement it. Base is sufficient.
>
> This follows from preferring to use the smallest value for base possible.
> Doing
> that also keeps table references as small as possible. (Because references
> are
> counted in the opposite direction to base, a larger base means larger
> references.)
>
> The cost is that you have to do a two pass check: the first to find the
> newest
> reference, the second to write out the header block. I find that it's
> basically
> necessary to do two passes anyway: on the first I write out the table
> updates,
> on the second I write the header block. During that phase you want to do
> lookups anyway, so you can save the largest base from that pass. Also,
> when you
> insert anything, that tends to set the base, so it's pretty easy overall.
>

It's a nit, but in my proxygen prototype
<https://github.com/krasic/proxygen>, I didn't have to do two passes,
partly because FB's IOBuf abstraction has powerful abilities to prepend
prefixes to an existing buf, avoiding the need for two pass logic.


>
> # Tracking ACKs is Harder Than It Seems
>
> There are multiple header blocks per stream, and ACKs only identify the
> stream.
> You can't just store a stream reference (or Request-ID) against each header
> block, you have to store a tuple of stream and header block index. This
> needs
> to be explained somewhere.
>

See above, I think the new stuff in Section 4.2
<https://krasic.github.io/draft-krasic-quic-hpack/draft-krasic-quic-qcram.html#rfc.section.4.2>
covers
this.



>
> I decided to externalize ACKs - the QCRAM encoder takes a generic blob as
> input
> when it encodes a header block and the same generic blob to acknowledge
> it. The
> caller then has to combine stream ID and header block index in a sensible
> fashion.
>
> # Acknowledge Dmitry
>
> So I don't forget... Dmitry did a lot of work on the design team.
>

Already done in the editor's copy.


>
> # Dynamic Table Overhead
>
> The draft has a TODO about overhead for each dynamic entry. I added a
> field to
> every entry that allows it to know its own position in the table, but that
> is a
> simplification/optimization, and you don't really need that. The other
> per-record overheads are all the same for the decoder, with a small
> increase to
> the fixed overhead. It's a little more state for an encoder, but that is
> mostly
> because of having to track usage.
>
> I don't think that we need to change from a 32 byte overhead. This decision
> could reduce code complexity in shared QCRAM/HPACK implementations (in my
> implementation it would).Section 4.2
>
> # Duplication Doesn't Need to Reference the Static Table
>
> Duplication only makes sense for dynamic entries and yet the index is (I
> assume), the normal table index. That is highly suboptimal. This is worse
> because the prefix is only 5 bits for this instruction (up to 62 values),
> which
> leads to the encoding taking an extra byte always. If you take my
> suggestion
> for separate instruction spaces, this is better, but still not as good as a
> direct index into the dynamic table, starting at 0. Better yet would be a
> reverse index, starting from the end of the table, because duplication
> often
> needs to refer to the end of the table.
>
> # Need Better Advice on Referencing strategy
>
> Referencing entries near the end of the table in a new header block is
> hazardous. If you just compress as you do in HPACK, you can end up pinning
> entries in the header table, making it impossible to add new entries.
> Thus, you
> have to stop referencing entries as they get nearer to the table capacity
> limit.
>
> In my implementation I added a threshold variable that governs my
> referencing
> strategy. A portion of the header table space is marked as being
> off-limits for
> header block usage. The encoder duplicates those entries if it wants to
> compress, but won't reference them. If the table is under pressure from
> the new
> header fields being added, then it should be able to advance by at least
> this
> amount every round trip.
>
> This is a simple strategy, and probably suboptimal in various ways, but it
> seems to work out. For instance, I continuously update the cutoff as
> entries
> are inserted, so that a header block might end up referencing things that
> get
> pushed into this space by later header fields.
>
> You can imagine more advanced techniques. For instance, you might tune this
> window automatically based on the rate that the header table grows. Because
> references in that window block eviction, it should be sized to the rate of
> *desired* growth in the header table over a round trip. Taking a running
> estimate of that desired growth and allowing a margin for variance could
> produce the right value. I haven't experimented with this.
>
>


-- 
Charles 'Buck' Krasic | Software Engineer | ckrasic@google.com | +1 (408)
412-1141

--001a1142340217d02e0564cd7dc9
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Some comments below, but=C2=A0<div><br></div><div><b>tldr;=
</b>=C2=A0=C2=A0<span style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-s=
erif;font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-v=
ariant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;t=
ext-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;back=
ground-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration=
-color:initial;float:none;display:inline">Sorry for crossed wires, but I th=
ink much of what you raise is addressed in=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://k=
rasic.github.io/draft-krasic-quic-hpack/draft-krasic-quic-qcram.html#rfc.se=
ction.3.2" style=3D"color:rgb(17,85,204);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-=
size:small;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-cap=
s:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent=
:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-col=
or:rgb(255,255,255)">3.2</a><span style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:=
arial,sans-serif;font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:n=
ormal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-a=
lign:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spac=
ing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;tex=
t-decoration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline">,</span><span style=
=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small;font-s=
tyle:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-wei=
ght:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transfo=
rm:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,25=
5);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;float:none;d=
isplay:inline">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://krasic.github.io/draft-krasi=
c-quic-hpack/draft-krasic-quic-qcram.html#rfc.section.3.3" style=3D"color:r=
gb(17,85,204);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small;font-style:norma=
l;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;le=
tter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;wh=
ite-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">3.3</a=
><span style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:=
small;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:nor=
mal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;=
text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rg=
b(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;=
float:none;display:inline">=C2=A0 and=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"https://krasic=
.github.io/draft-krasic-quic-hpack/draft-krasic-quic-qcram.html#rfc.section=
.4.2" style=3D"color:rgb(17,85,204);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:=
small;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:nor=
mal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;=
text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rg=
b(255,255,255)">4.2</a><span style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial=
,sans-serif;font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal=
;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:=
start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0=
px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-dec=
oration-color:initial;float:none;display:inline">=C2=A0of the <a href=3D"ht=
tps://krasic.github.io/draft-krasic-quic-hpack/#go.draft-krasic-quic-qcram.=
html">editor&#39;s copy</a> (changes=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://mailarchive.ie=
tf.org/arch/msg/quic/CS-guyGGwgTXUMr3I2BfxSqUtSg/?qid=3D730e62053d1db65f86e=
00c822184f971">were announced on this list</a>).</span><br><div class=3D"gm=
ail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 2:08 AM, M=
artin Thomson <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.thomson@gmail.=
com" target=3D"_blank">martin.thomson@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-le=
ft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">I have implemented QCRAM an=
d have a few things to comment on.<br>
<br>
My implementation is here:<br>
=C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://github.com/martinthomson/minhq/tree/master/hc" re=
l=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/<wbr>martinthomson/mi=
nhq/tree/<wbr>master/hc</a><br>
<br>
This is my first attempt at go, so this took a little longer than it might =
have<br>
otherwise. Test coverage is still a little light, though go thinks that I h=
ave<br>
pretty good coverage. There&#39;s probably still a lot to go on the corner =
cases,<br>
but I think that I&#39;ve done enough to get an idea for the complexity bum=
p.<br>
<br>
I started by implementing HPACK, which is surprisingly easy if you don&#39;=
t care<br>
about being efficient. Though I knew that I was going to add QCRAM, I made =
only<br>
minimal design concessions when building HPACK.<br>
<br>
Building QCRAM on top of HPACK took at least 50% more than just doing HPACK=
 (at<br>
a guess, HPACK took about 10-12 hours, QCRAM took closer to 20). Even thoug=
h<br>
you can reuse Huffman coding and most of the primitives, retrofitting it wa=
s<br>
tricky. My lack of familiarity with go definitely contributed a lot to that=
,<br>
but I&#39;d say that QCRAM is more difficult to implement than it seems in =
theory.<br>
<br>
I didn&#39;t implement QCRAM entirely as specified. There are a few things =
that<br>
I&#39;ll describe below that would make it either better or easier to imple=
ment (or<br>
both).<br>
<br>
<br>
# Separate Stream Roles<br>
<br>
There are actually three streams of data that are of interest, and there is=
 no<br>
clarity about those streams.<br>
<br>
1. I suggest that we use unidirectional streams in each direction for table=
<br>
updates.=C2=A0</blockquote><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204)=
;padding-left:1ex">
2. A separate stream for acknowledgments ensures that the encoder can consu=
me<br>
that separately to the decoder.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I have =
a hard time seeing a practical difference, but sure.</div><div>=C2=A0</div>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
3. Request/response streams. I think that we all understand these.<br>
<br>
These can be separate from the hq control stream, and they should be. Rathe=
r<br>
than pick a specific stream number, we should add a header for these stream=
s<br>
that will allow them to be identified clearly. If we do that, add strict ru=
les<br>
about cardinality.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px=
 solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
# Define Framing More Clearly<br>
<br>
The definition of the framing that is used on the control stream is unclear=
. I<br>
assume that the intent is to use HEADERS frames, but I&#39;m only really gu=
essing.<br>
If you take my suggestion for separate framing, then you can use very diffe=
rent<br>
logic for the different streams.<br>
<br>
Honestly, the overhead of framing is excessive for anything but<br>
request/response streams. I found that framing on the control stream wasn&#=
39;t<br>
necessary at all. This might depend on implementation strategy, because it<=
br>
might be easier to collect a framed thing than it is to read until you are<=
br>
blocked, then pickle that state so that you can go back to something else. =
In<br>
my implementation I hold state on the stack, so it&#39;s pretty easy.<br>
<br>
Also, it should suffice to have just a stream of varints indicating<br>
acknowledgments. Duplicates can be used to acknowledge multiple header bloc=
ks<br>
on the same stream in order.<br>
<br>
# Split the Instruction Space<br>
<br>
Having to check that only certain instructions appear on different streams =
is<br>
annoying to implement and a waste of bits. Define two separate spaces. That=
<br>
should make things much simpler: there are exactly two instructions in each=
<br>
space then (leaving aside acknowledgments, which I will cover below).<br>
<br>
# Base in Every HEADERS Frame<br>
<br>
Base (the number of inserts in the table at the start of a header block) se=
ems<br>
to be required for all HEADERS frames, including both table modification an=
d<br>
request/response streams.=C2=A0 But...<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>FWIW, in the editor&#39;s copy there w=
as already a change that the prefix is only for request-response streams (s=
ee=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://krasic.github.io/draft-krasic-quic-hpack/draft-k=
rasic-quic-qcram.html#rfc.section.3.2">3.2</a>=C2=A0and=C2=A0<a href=3D"htt=
ps://krasic.github.io/draft-krasic-quic-hpack/draft-krasic-quic-qcram.html#=
rfc.section.3.3">3.3</a>)</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,=
204);padding-left:1ex">
# Base on the Table Update Stream<br>
<br>
You don&#39;t need base for table updates. It is more of a hazard than a he=
lp. It<br>
is easier if you treat indexing on the table update stream as in HPACK wher=
e<br>
each insert moves the reference point for the next insertion.<br></blockquo=
te><div><br></div><div>Yep, see above.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid=
 rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
# Remove BLOCKING<br>
<br>
The BLOCKING flag complicates the design unnecessarily. As a fixed overhead=
,<br>
pay the extra byte always.</blockquote><div><br></div><div>I disagree.=C2=
=A0 Fixed overheads in every header block do really hurt.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Close=
 to 1% per byte.=C2=A0 =C2=A0Since blocking is less than 10% of blocks, I t=
hink your proposal is a material waste.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e=
x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Furthermore, the=
 table update stream will never need<br>
to use depends, so that further motivates having different instruction sets=
<br>
(and formats) for different streams.=C2=A0 And you don&#39;t need it...<br>
<br></blockquote><div>This is true, and was already addressed as mentioned =
above.</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204)=
;padding-left:1ex">
# Base and the Static Table<br>
<br>
It is not explained at all that the base is applied to the dynamic table on=
ly.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>afrind@ pointed this out Jan. 24 in=
 a design committee thread (About simplifying QCRAM further.)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
The editors copy had significant work to try and clarify these points.=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0Again sections 3.2 and 3.3.=C2=A0 Also in response to earlier fee=
dback,=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://krasic.github.io/draft-krasic-quic-hpack/dra=
ft-krasic-quic-qcram.html#rfc.section.4.2">Section 4.2</a>, has a lot of ne=
w implementation guidance.<br><br>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,20=
4);padding-left:1ex">
That is, index 1 is a straight index into the static table and that index 6=
2<br>
will use the current number of inserts and the base to determine the actual=
<br>
index into the dynamic table (this is the first table entry only when the<b=
r>
number of table inserts and base are the same, if the base is smaller, then=
 it<br>
will be further along the table).<br>
<br>
To be clear, my logic for finding entries is:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 if i =3D=3D 0: error<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 if i &lt;=3D len(staticTable): return staticTable[i-1]<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 delta =3D tableBase - base<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 if delta &lt; 0: error<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 return dynamicTable[i - len(staticTable) - 1 + delta]<br>
<br>
# Remove Depends<br>
<br>
Depends is useless. I did not implement it. Base is sufficient.<br>
<br>
This follows from preferring to use the smallest value for base possible. D=
oing<br>
that also keeps table references as small as possible. (Because references =
are<br>
counted in the opposite direction to base, a larger base means larger<br>
references.)<br>
<br>
The cost is that you have to do a two pass check: the first to find the new=
est<br>
reference, the second to write out the header block. I find that it&#39;s b=
asically<br>
necessary to do two passes anyway: on the first I write out the table updat=
es,<br>
on the second I write the header block. During that phase you want to do<br=
>
lookups anyway, so you can save the largest base from that pass. Also, when=
 you<br>
insert anything, that tends to set the base, so it&#39;s pretty easy overal=
l.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>It&#39;s a nit, but in <a href=3D"ht=
tps://github.com/krasic/proxygen">my proxygen prototype</a>, I didn&#39;t h=
ave to do two passes, partly because FB&#39;s IOBuf abstraction has powerfu=
l abilities to prepend prefixes to an existing buf, avoiding the need for t=
wo pass logic.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);paddin=
g-left:1ex">
<br>
# Tracking ACKs is Harder Than It Seems<br>
<br>
There are multiple header blocks per stream, and ACKs only identify the str=
eam.<br>
You can&#39;t just store a stream reference (or Request-ID) against each he=
ader<br>
block, you have to store a tuple of stream and header block index. This nee=
ds<br>
to be explained somewhere.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>See above, I=
 think the new stuff in=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://krasic.github.io/draft-kras=
ic-quic-hpack/draft-krasic-quic-qcram.html#rfc.section.4.2" style=3D"color:=
rgb(17,85,204);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small;font-style:norm=
al;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;l=
etter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;w=
hite-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Secti=
on 4.2</a>=C2=A0covers this.</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
I decided to externalize ACKs - the QCRAM encoder takes a generic blob as i=
nput<br>
when it encodes a header block and the same generic blob to acknowledge it.=
 The<br>
caller then has to combine stream ID and header block index in a sensible<b=
r>
fashion.<br>
<br>
# Acknowledge Dmitry<br>
<br>
So I don&#39;t forget... Dmitry did a lot of work on the design team.<br></=
blockquote><div><br></div><div>Already done in the editor&#39;s copy.</div>=
<div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
# Dynamic Table Overhead<br>
<br>
The draft has a TODO about overhead for each dynamic entry. I added a field=
 to<br>
every entry that allows it to know its own position in the table, but that =
is a<br>
simplification/optimization, and you don&#39;t really need that. The other<=
br>
per-record overheads are all the same for the decoder, with a small increas=
e to<br>
the fixed overhead. It&#39;s a little more state for an encoder, but that i=
s mostly<br>
because of having to track usage.<br>
<br>
I don&#39;t think that we need to change from a 32 byte overhead. This deci=
sion<br>
could reduce code complexity in shared QCRAM/HPACK implementations (in my<b=
r>
implementation it would).Section 4.2<br>
<br>
# Duplication Doesn&#39;t Need to Reference the Static Table<br>
<br>
Duplication only makes sense for dynamic entries and yet the index is (I<br=
>
assume), the normal table index. That is highly suboptimal. This is worse<b=
r>
because the prefix is only 5 bits for this instruction (up to 62 values), w=
hich<br>
leads to the encoding taking an extra byte always. If you take my suggestio=
n<br>
for separate instruction spaces, this is better, but still not as good as a=
<br>
direct index into the dynamic table, starting at 0. Better yet would be a<b=
r>
reverse index, starting from the end of the table, because duplication ofte=
n<br>
needs to refer to the end of the table.<br>
<br>
# Need Better Advice on Referencing strategy<br>
<br>
Referencing entries near the end of the table in a new header block is<br>
hazardous. If you just compress as you do in HPACK, you can end up pinning<=
br>
entries in the header table, making it impossible to add new entries. Thus,=
 you<br>
have to stop referencing entries as they get nearer to the table capacity<b=
r>
limit.<br>
<br>
In my implementation I added a threshold variable that governs my referenci=
ng<br>
strategy. A portion of the header table space is marked as being off-limits=
 for<br>
header block usage. The encoder duplicates those entries if it wants to<br>
compress, but won&#39;t reference them. If the table is under pressure from=
 the new<br>
header fields being added, then it should be able to advance by at least th=
is<br>
amount every round trip.<br>
<br>
This is a simple strategy, and probably suboptimal in various ways, but it<=
br>
seems to work out. For instance, I continuously update the cutoff as entrie=
s<br>
are inserted, so that a header block might end up referencing things that g=
et<br>
pushed into this space by later header fields.<br>
<br>
You can imagine more advanced techniques. For instance, you might tune this=
<br>
window automatically based on the rate that the header table grows. Because=
<br>
references in that window block eviction, it should be sized to the rate of=
<br>
*desired* growth in the header table over a round trip. Taking a running<br=
>
estimate of that desired growth and allowing a margin for variance could<br=
>
produce the right value. I haven&#39;t experimented with this.<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class=
=3D"gmail_signature"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;=
;font-size:medium"><span style=3D"color:rgb(85,85,85);font-family:sans-seri=
f;line-height:20px;font-size:small"><span style=3D"border-width:2px 0px 0px=
;border-style:solid;border-color:rgb(213,15,37);padding-top:2px;margin-top:=
2px">Charles &#39;Buck&#39; Krasic=C2=A0|</span><span style=3D"border-width=
:2px 0px 0px;border-style:solid;border-color:rgb(51,105,232);padding-top:2p=
x;margin-top:2px">=C2=A0Software Engineer=C2=A0|</span><span style=3D"borde=
r-width:2px 0px 0px;border-style:solid;border-color:rgb(0,153,57);padding-t=
op:2px;margin-top:2px">=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:ckrasic@google.com" target=
=3D"_blank">ckrasic@google.com</a>=C2=A0|</span><span style=3D"border-width=
:2px 0px 0px;border-style:solid;border-color:rgb(238,178,17);padding-top:2p=
x;margin-top:2px">=C2=A0<span title=3D"Call with Google Voice">+1 (408) 412=
-1141</span></span></span><br><br></span></div>
</div></div></div>

--001a1142340217d02e0564cd7dc9--


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From: "Deval, Manasi" <manasi.deval@intel.com>
To: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>, David Benjamin <davidben@chromium.org>
CC: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
Subject: RE: Packet number encryption
Thread-Topic: Packet number encryption
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Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 20:55:24 +0000
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From: "Deval, Manasi" <manasi.deval@intel.com>
To: "Deval, Manasi" <manasi.deval@intel.com>, Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>, David Benjamin <davidben@chromium.org>
CC: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
Subject: RE: Packet number encryption
Thread-Topic: Packet number encryption
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Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 21:16:35 +0000
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From: Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv@google.com>
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 16:17:10 -0500
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Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
To: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
Cc: Marten Seemann <martenseemann@gmail.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>,  huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
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On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 5:32 PM, Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com
> wrote:

> AFAICT the goal is to perform some transform for preventing middlebox
> ossification. Encryption is one possible transform but is it the only
> possible one?
>

The goal of the transform is to prevent the middleboxes from interpreting
the packet number, so yes, anything you'll propose would be encryption.


> The numbers I quoted were from a quick test by modifying the winquic
> implementation to add an additional encrypt / decrypt step on packet number
> size worth of data. If anyone else has any data please share.
>

I am very confused about the 1.25% number.  1280 bytes is about 80 AES
blocks, and one extra block is 1.25% on top of total *encryption* costs
(you don't have to MAC the PN, so that's even cheaper).  And the encryption
itself is fairly cheap compared to almost any other part of the QUIC stack
(sent packet tracking, ack processing, I/O, timers, etc).

--94eb2c124aa23bd91b0564ce0d6a
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On T=
hu, Feb 8, 2018 at 5:32 PM, Praveen Balasubramanian <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:pravb@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank">pravb@microsoft.com=
</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_-4220692937248332026WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">AFAICT the goal is to perform some transform for pre=
venting middlebox ossification. Encryption is one possible transform but is=
 it the only possible one?</p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>=
The goal of the transform is to prevent the middleboxes from interpreting t=
he packet number, so yes, anything you&#39;ll propose would be encryption.<=
/div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0=
 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US" li=
nk=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div class=3D"m_-4220692937248332026WordSectio=
n1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal">The numbers I quoted were from a quick test by m=
odifying the winquic implementation
 to add an additional encrypt / decrypt step on packet number size worth of=
 data. If anyone else has any data please share.</p></div></div></blockquot=
e><div><br></div><div>I am very confused about the 1.25% number.=C2=A0 1280=
 bytes is about 80 AES blocks, and one extra block is 1.25% on top of total=
 *encryption* costs (you don&#39;t have to MAC the PN, so that&#39;s even c=
heaper).=C2=A0 And the encryption itself is fairly cheap compared to almost=
 any other part of the QUIC stack (sent packet tracking, ack processing, I/=
O, timers, etc).</div></div></div></div>

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Subject: RE: Packet number encryption
To: David Benjamin <davidben@chromium.org>, "Deval, Manasi" <manasi.deval@intel.com>,  Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
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The obvious advantage of a clear text nonce is that it can be immediately
decrypted without extra processing and without modifying the packet
content, and it avoids latency from a separate packet number decryption
step.

However, having per path unique nonces per path jumping randomly in order
to gain an insignificant amount of anti-ossification is not every
appealing. Neither is the extra space required for having both packet
numbers and nonces, when they in the majority of cases is one and the same,
effectively. The random jumps are effectively a hidden encryption step
although cheaper than packet number encryption.

So, I propose having a nonce that counts from 0 per path per direction and
also having a unique connection identifier per path direction (asymmetric
CID). Lets call this a half-path context (CID+nonce counter). It could also
work shared path CID as today, but it is not as clean.

The nonce can at most count to 2^32-1 due to hard limits on AES-GCM and
possibly general TLS requirements.

This leaves the packet number encoding:

If we enumerate each half-path with a path ID PID as a simpler counter
starting at zero, we have a 1-1 mapping from PID to CID. The packet number
PN is then encoded as <PID * 2^32 + nonce counter>. The PN is used
explicitly and implicitly in ACK frames but is never carried directly on
the wire.

During path migration packet numbers in the same ACK frame may have large
predictable jumps, but the ACK frame already competently deals with this,
and the jumps are limited to the number of concurrently active paths.

The only loss is the ossification concern of having predictable per path
counters, but I think that is low price of admission. There are no
linkability concerns with this, and all the networking monitoring people
would be happy too.

Kind Regards,
Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen


On 9 February 2018 at 21.55.33, Deval, Manasi (manasi.deval@intel.com)
wrote:

Going back to Ian=E2=80=99s point here =E2=80=93 Can you be explicit about =
the issue you
see in the packet number encryption?



Thanks,

Manasi





*From:* QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Praveen
Balasubramanian
*Sent:* Friday, February 09, 2018 11:59 AM
*To:* David Benjamin <davidben@chromium.org>
*Cc:* Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>; quic@ietf.org; huitema <
huitema@huitema.net>
*Subject:* RE: Packet number encryption



With VLE its minimal overhead per packet so you are not encrypting 4 bytes
more all the time even with 64 bit or 128 bit packet number . So its
decidedly better. Also fewer calls into TLS, but I suppose one could do
some refactoring of TLS API. Many CPUs yes but this is a general purpose
transport and could run on CPUs that don=E2=80=99t.



Didn=E2=80=99t ask for nonce to be variable length. Fixed length for connec=
tion
lifetime. Datacenters connections could use 64-bit nonce to avoid frequent
key rollover.



Effectively the plain text nonce is a sequence number since it increases
monotonically with small jumps as needed to avoid ossification. So no worse
off than gQUIC or current draft. No more complex than using the packet
number. Just the starting number is randomized. Also please notice that
this proposal does not preclude using encrypted packet number as the nonce
as proposed previously. Changing how the nonce works makes 0 impact on the
transport logic. An implementation can choose to implement any form of
non-repeating nonce without revving the RFC. This is the biggest advantage
of separation of concerns IMHO.



*From:* David Benjamin [mailto:davidben@chromium.org]
*Sent:* Friday, February 9, 2018 11:39 AM
*To:* Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
*Cc:* Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>; quic@ietf.org; huitema <
huitema@huitema.net>
*Subject:* Re: Packet number encryption



Your primary worry here was the extra block cipher operation, right? By
moving the packet number into the plaintext, this proposal increases the
length, which will cost that same one extra block cipher operation, no?



It is one block operation under the same key, rather than a different key
so I suppose there are minuscule cache footprint wins (one symmetric key is
16 or 32 bytes). But the cost is per-packet (!) bandwidth and complexity. I
do not see how this could be worth it. Note that, for AES, many CPUs have
dedicated instructions for it already.



> Clear separation of concerns results if we don=E2=80=99t overload the pac=
ket
number as the nonce. Connection migration and multi-path are optional
features and we pay no extra compute cost for most connections that are not
impacted by unlnkability. Nonce field becomes optional for crypto that
doesn=E2=80=99t need it and can grow to larger size as needed for bulk tran=
sfers to
prevent frequent key rollovers (say in datacenter scenarios).



You're not going to find AEADs that don't require a nonce. Encryption must
not produce the same ciphertext twice for the same plaintext, so you need
some input to diversify them. That input is the nonce. Nonces also are not
variable-length, so you don't get to arbitrarily grow them. (AES-GCM per
spec is variable length, but that's a spec bug. If you size it above 96
bits, it's as if you randomized it and your nonce space crashes per
birthday.)



It is also harmful to separate the two concerns. When you are building a
transport, derive the nonce from a sequence number. TLS 1.2 AES-GCM
separated them, which was a mistake. It's less efficient (the world wasted
quite a lot of bandwidth due to this), and more error-prone. There was
nothing stopping implementations from sending the same nonce or generating
nonces randomly (the AEADs we use don't have large enough nonces for that),
and indeed some did just that. If you use some sort of sequence number, you
can lean on existing work both to filter out the obvious implementation
mistakes and to avoid sending unnecessary data.



On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 12:38 PM Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.co=
m>
wrote:

Let me try to summarize the proposal again:



   1. Packet number is in the encrypted portion of the header and is no
   longer used as the nonce. It is encoded as a variable length number. Alw=
ays
   starts at 0.


   1. No ossification of PN
      2. No linkability using PN
      3. Allows for growth beyond 64 bits if needed in future


   1. The nonce is in the clear in plaintext header. It is generated *per
   path* as a secure random number. Call this the =E2=80=9Cstarting value=
=E2=80=9D. Both
   sides MUST initialize the =E2=80=9Cstarting value=E2=80=9D nonce *per pa=
th*. Within a
   path it grows monotonically (to avoid repeats just like PN today) and ca=
n
   include short random jumps periodically so that middleboxes cannot assum=
e
   anything about the field. Since nonce has nothing to do with PN the jump=
s
   don=E2=80=99t add any complexity to transport logic. Jumps are for greas=
ing and
   preventing ossification. When the nonce rolls over and reaches close to =
the
   =E2=80=9Cstarting value=E2=80=9D, key rollover must happen. At high data=
 rates the nonce
   field can be 64-bits to prevent frequent key rollover. For crypto that
   doesn=E2=80=99t need nonces, the field can be omitted.


   1. No ossification because there is no pre-determined sequence to the
      nonce.
      2. In gQUIC and the RFC as defined the nonce is a simple sequence
      that increments by one, so this is no worse off in terms of
security. It is
      non-repeating.
      3. No linkability because different paths start at a completely
      different random number. If repeating is a concern then
different paths use
      different keys. Carries forward to not just connection migration but
      mutli-path.
      4. Supports key rollover just like gQUIC and currently defined draft
      RFC.
      5. Allows for omitting the nonce when we use crypto that doesn=E2=80=
=99t need
      it.
      6. Allows for larger nonces for high data rates.
      7. It doesn=E2=80=99t preclude any other type of non-repeating nonces=
 without
      having to modify the RFC! So implementations that want to use
cryptographic
      nonces can still do so.



The downsides:

   1. Even with variable length encoding the extra PN field is more space
   used per packet when a nonce is required. I think we can do with 2 bytes=
 in
   version 1.
   2. It=E2=80=99s not perfect unlinkabiltiy but I have yet to see any solu=
tion
   that can provide this. A simple time based analysis using machine learni=
ng
   will allow flow correlation especially for connection migration. The IP
   addresses in the clear allow for a high degree of correlation. There is
   also the application sending pattern and other signals that could be use=
d.



*From:* Eric Rescorla [mailto:ekr@rtfm.com]
*Sent:* Friday, February 9, 2018 5:52 AM
*To:* Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
*Cc:* huitema <huitema@huitema.net>; quic@ietf.org


*Subject:* Re: Packet number encryption







On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 9:40 PM, Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.co=
m>
wrote:

Actually taking a step back what if we don=E2=80=99t we overloaded packet n=
umber as
the nonce?



Can we:

   1. Put packet number as a separate variable length field in the
   encrypted portion of the header. This allows for growth beyond 64 bits i=
n
   future and completely avoids ossification. For short lived flows variabl=
e
   length encoding leads to minimal space overhead.
   2. Put a separate plaintext nonce which starts out as a secure random
   number and monotonically increases as short random jumps (every packet o=
r
   every few packets) and could then rollover. This will prevent linkabilit=
y
   and scales to multi-path as well. No major compute overhead. We can also
   make the nonce optional for crypto algorithms that do not need a nonce
   saving more space.



I'm not sure how to do #2 safely and efficiently. The primary concern is
that short random jumps don't actually prevent linkability because the high
order bits don't change and long random jumps are effectively randomly
sampling out of the nonce space, and you start to run into birthday
problems. Additionally, the cheapest PRNGs are basically ciphers in counter
mode, so at best you're going to get a small amount of overhead reduction
by getting multiple jump computations out of a single block, though if you
use 96-bit jumps, you only get 25% savings...



-Ekr







Some MSB of the nonce could be used for signaling reorder to the network if
needed. I don=E2=80=99t have the historical context for overloading of PN a=
s the
nonce so pardon me if un-overloading option was discussed and ruled out
before.



*From:* QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Praveen
Balasubramanian
*Sent:* Thursday, February 8, 2018 5:51 PM
*To:* huitema <huitema@huitema.net>; quic@ietf.org
*Subject:* RE: Packet number encryption



>> and using separate packet sequences for each path

This alone prevents linkability right?



>> The packet number on each path will start at 1 (or maybe 0 ;-).

Is supporting multiple paths at the same time a goal? If yes, then yes all
paths will need to have separate tracking and ACK state and congestion
control etc. I thought this is not part of V1 RFC. If its just one
additional path for connection migration scenario then all you need is a
(random) jump to a offset in packet number space for the new path so that
the few packets in the old path can continue for a little bit. This works
with just one ACK space so no implementation complexity.



>> 2) Or, leaving the packet number in the clear but using different
encryption contexts for each path, and using separate packet sequences for
each path.
In addition if the value in the clear was obfuscated with an XOR transform
it will help prevent ossification. The obfuscation is not meant to guard
against later analysis that reveals the packet numbers - why do we care
about that. It is meant to grease the space and not make the numbers serial
so middleboxes cannot assume ordering etc.



All said if I am alone in being concerned about the perf hit then I=E2=80=
=99d say
go on with option 1.



*From:* QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org <quic-bounces@ietf.org>] *On
Behalf Of *Christian Huitema
*Sent:* Thursday, February 8, 2018 3:54 PM
*To:* quic@ietf.org
*Subject:* Re: Packet number encryption



On 2/8/2018 1:13 PM, Mike Bishop wrote:

#2 won=E2=80=99t work.  The packet number is an input to the AEAD nonce, so=
 you
have to get to the packet number before you can decrypt the payload.  It
can=E2=80=99t be based on anything internal to the encrypted packet.



In Martin=E2=80=99s proposal, it=E2=80=99s using a combination of the encry=
pted payload
(which requires nothing to access) and some stored state on each endpoint,
which requires only the Connection ID to look up.  You want the thing you
XOR by to be constantly changing, or it becomes easier to look at sequences
of obfuscated packet numbers and start drawing inferences about what the
XOR value is.  If overhead is the primary concern, I think there are a
couple approaches that might allow you to precompute values and amortize
the cost of doing the encryption step.  (At the cost of keeping the table
of precomputed values, of course.)



I still think Jana=E2=80=99s pushing in the right direction here:  Let=E2=
=80=99s agree on
goals, and then see if we can craft a design that meets those goals.  I
hear you saying that low overhead is a goal, which I think we can all agree
on.  I also think I hear you saying that 1-1.5% overhead is too high, but
it sounds like there=E2=80=99s less agreement on that.  You also raise an
interesting point that some clients will care less about linkability
because they will never intentionally migrate.


I think Victor said it best, "Obfuscation is just encryption done poorly."
Either we encrypt, or we don't. But there is no such thing as an
obfuscation middle-ground. Obfuscation would just be a speed bump, easily
broken. It won't provide privacy, and it won't prevent linkability.

As far as I am concerned, there are only two designs that prevent
linkability:

1) Martin's PR, in which the packet number is encrypted using sensible
crypto;

2) Or, leaving the packet number in the clear but using different
encryption contexts for each path, and using separate packet sequences for
each path.

The second option requires more computation when explicitly setting up a
new path. The connection ID would be used as part of the "salt" when
deriving connection contexts. The packet number on each path will start at
1 (or maybe 0 ;-). This requires maintaining separate SACK dashboards for
each path/Connection-ID, and constraining ACK to be per/path, or
alternatively adding a PATH-ACK frame that indicates the path for which
packets are acked.

The pros and cons of the two options are easy to get:

1) Option 2 does not require the cost of encrypting every packet, thus per
packet processing will be maybe 1% faster than option 1.

2) Option 2 requires computing encryption contexts for each path, which is
more complex than option 1, but the cost will be amortized over the
duration of the path.

3) Option 2 requires more complex data structures and ACK management, thus
increasing the chances that something goes wrong.

4) Option 2 does nothing against packet number ossification. The packet
number effectively becomes part of the invariants.

In short, the only advantage of option 2 is to avoid a single symmetric
encryption operation per packet, while making the code significantly more
complex, and at the cost of not protecting against PN ossification. The way
I see that, there is hardly any debate.

-- Christian Huitema

--f403045d914c4603dc0564ce1166
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">The obvious advantag=
e of a clear text nonce is that it can be immediately decrypted without ext=
ra processing and without modifying the packet content, and it avoids laten=
cy from a separate packet number decryption step.</div><div id=3D"bloop_cus=
tomfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0=
,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont"=
 style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);=
margin:0px;line-height:auto">However, having per path unique nonces per pat=
h jumping randomly in order to gain an insignificant amount of anti-ossific=
ation is not every appealing. Neither is the extra space required for havin=
g both packet numbers and nonces, when they in the majority of cases is one=
 and the same, effectively. The random jumps are effectively a hidden encry=
ption step although cheaper than packet number encryption.</div><div id=3D"=
bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color=
:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_cu=
stomfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,=
0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">So, I propose having a nonce that cou=
nts from 0 per path per direction and also having a unique connection ident=
ifier per path direction (asymmetric CID). Lets call this a half-path conte=
xt (CID+nonce counter). It could also work shared path CID as today, but it=
 is not as clean.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:He=
lvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:a=
uto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,=
Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">The=
 nonce can at most count to 2^32-1 due to hard limits on AES-GCM and possib=
ly general TLS requirements.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"fon=
t-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;li=
ne-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family=
:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-heigh=
t:auto">This leaves the packet number encoding:</div><div id=3D"bloop_custo=
mfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0=
,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" s=
tyle=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);ma=
rgin:0px;line-height:auto">If we enumerate each half-path with a path ID PI=
D as a simpler counter starting at zero, we have a 1-1 mapping from PID to =
CID. The packet number PN is then encoded as &lt;PID * 2^32 + nonce counter=
&gt;. The PN is used explicitly and implicitly in ACK frames but is never c=
arried directly on the wire.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"fon=
t-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;li=
ne-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family=
:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-heigh=
t:auto">During path migration packet numbers in the same ACK frame may have=
 large predictable jumps, but the ACK frame already competently deals with =
this, and the jumps are limited to the number of concurrently active paths.=
</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;fon=
t-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div> <=
div>The only loss is the ossification concern of having predictable per pat=
h counters, but I think that is low price of admission. There are no linkab=
ility concerns with this, and all the networking monitoring people would be=
 happy too.</div><br> <div id=3D"bloop_sign_1518210109457553920" class=3D"b=
loop_sign"><div style=3D"font-family:helvetica,arial;font-size:13px">Kind R=
egards,</div><div style=3D"font-family:helvetica,arial;font-size:13px">Mikk=
el Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen<br><br></div></div> <br><p class=3D"airmail_o=
n">On 9 February 2018 at 21.55.33, Deval, Manasi (<a href=3D"mailto:manasi.=
deval@intel.com">manasi.deval@intel.com</a>) wrote:</p> <blockquote type=3D=
"cite" class=3D"clean_bq"><span><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"=
purple"><div></div><div>






<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Going back to Ian=E2=
=80=99s point here =E2=80=93 Can you be explicit about the issue you see in=
 the packet number encryption?
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Thanks,</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Manasi</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">=C2=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"_MailEndCompose"><span style=3D"color:#1f=
497d">=C2=A0</span></a></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> QUIC [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bou=
nces@ietf.org">quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Praveen Balasubramanian<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 09, 2018 11:59 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> David Benjamin &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:davidben@chromium.org">davi=
dben@chromium.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Eric Rescorla &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com">ekr@rtfm.com</=
a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@ietf.org</a>; huitema &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:huitema@huitema.net">huitema@huitema.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Packet number encryption</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">With VLE its minimal overhead per packet so you are =
not encrypting 4 bytes more all the time even with 64 bit or 128 bit packet=
 number . So its decidedly better. Also fewer calls into TLS, but I suppose=
 one could do some refactoring of
 TLS API. Many CPUs yes but this is a general purpose transport and could r=
un on CPUs that don=E2=80=99t.
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Didn=E2=80=99t ask for nonce to be variable length. =
Fixed length for connection lifetime. Datacenters connections could use 64-=
bit nonce to avoid frequent key rollover.
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Effectively the plain text nonce is a sequence numbe=
r since it increases monotonically with small jumps as needed to avoid ossi=
fication. So no worse off than gQUIC or current draft. No more complex than=
 using the packet number. Just the
 starting number is randomized. Also please notice that this proposal does =
not preclude using encrypted packet number as the nonce as proposed previou=
sly. Changing how the nonce works makes 0 impact on the transport logic. An=
 implementation can choose to implement
 any form of non-repeating nonce without revving the RFC. This is the bigge=
st advantage of separation of concerns IMHO.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> David Benjamin [mailto:<a href=3D"mailt=
o:davidben@chromium.org">davidben@chromium.org</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 9, 2018 11:39 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Praveen Balasubramanian &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pravb@microsoft.co=
m">pravb@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Eric Rescorla &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com">ekr@rtfm.com</=
a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@ietf.org</a>; huitema &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:huitema@huitema.net">huitema@huitema.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Packet number encryption</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Your primary worry here was the extra block cipher o=
peration, right? By moving the packet number into the plaintext, this propo=
sal increases the length, which will cost that same one extra block cipher =
operation, no?</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It is one block operation under the same key, rather=
 than a different key so I suppose there are minuscule=C2=A0cache footprint=
 wins (one symmetric key is 16 or 32 bytes). But the cost is per-packet (!)=
 bandwidth and complexity. I do not see
 how this could be worth it.=C2=A0Note that, for AES, many CPUs have dedica=
ted instructions for it already.</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&gt;=C2=A0Clear separation of concerns results if we=
 don=E2=80=99t overload the packet number as the nonce. Connection migratio=
n and multi-path are optional features and we pay no extra compute cost for=
 most connections that are not impacted by unlnkability.
 Nonce field becomes optional for crypto that doesn=E2=80=99t need it and c=
an grow to larger size as needed for bulk transfers to prevent frequent key=
 rollovers (say in datacenter scenarios).</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">You&#39;re not going to find AEADs that don&#39;t re=
quire a nonce. Encryption must not produce the same ciphertext twice for th=
e same plaintext, so you need some input to diversify them. That input is t=
he nonce. Nonces also are not variable-length,
 so you don&#39;t get to arbitrarily grow them. (AES-GCM per spec is variab=
le length, but that&#39;s a spec bug. If you size it above 96 bits, it&#39;=
s as if you randomized it and your nonce space crashes per birthday.)</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It is also harmful to separate the two concerns.=C2=
=A0When you are building a transport, derive the nonce from a sequence numb=
er. TLS 1.2 AES-GCM separated them, which was a mistake. It&#39;s less effi=
cient (the world wasted quite a lot of bandwidth
 due to this), and more error-prone. There was nothing stopping implementat=
ions from sending the same nonce or generating nonces randomly (the AEADs w=
e use don&#39;t have large enough nonces for that), and indeed some did jus=
t that. If you use some sort of sequence
 number, you can lean on existing work both to filter out the obvious imple=
mentation mistakes and to avoid sending unnecessary data.</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 12:38 PM Praveen Balasubraman=
ian &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pravb@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank">pravb@micr=
osoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">Let me try to summarize the proposal again:</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
<ol start=3D"1" type=3D"1">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-=
alt:auto;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo1">
Packet number is in the encrypted portion of the header and is no longer us=
ed as the nonce. It is encoded as a variable length number. Always starts a=
t 0.
</li></ol>
<ol start=3D"1" type=3D"1">
<ol start=3D"1" type=3D"a">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-=
alt:auto;mso-list:l2 level2 lfo1">
No ossification of PN</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-a=
lt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l2 level2 lfo1">
No linkability using PN</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top=
-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l2 level2 lfo1">
Allows for growth beyond 64 bits if needed in future</li></ol>
</ol>
<ol start=3D"2" type=3D"1">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-=
alt:auto;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo1">
The nonce is in the clear in plaintext header. It is generated <i>per path<=
/i> as a secure random number. Call this the =E2=80=9Cstarting value=E2=80=
=9D. Both sides MUST initialize the =E2=80=9Cstarting value=E2=80=9D nonce
<i>per path</i>. Within a path it grows monotonically (to avoid repeats jus=
t like PN today) and can include short random jumps periodically so that mi=
ddleboxes cannot assume anything about the field. Since nonce has nothing t=
o do with PN the jumps don=E2=80=99t add
 any complexity to transport logic. Jumps are for greasing and preventing o=
ssification. When the nonce rolls over and reaches close to the =E2=80=9Cst=
arting value=E2=80=9D, key rollover must happen. At high data rates the non=
ce field can be 64-bits to prevent frequent key
 rollover. For crypto that doesn=E2=80=99t need nonces, the field can be om=
itted. </li></ol>
<ol start=3D"2" type=3D"1">
<ol start=3D"1" type=3D"a">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-=
alt:auto;mso-list:l2 level2 lfo2">
No ossification because there is no pre-determined sequence to the nonce.</=
li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bott=
om-alt:auto;mso-list:l2 level2 lfo2">
In gQUIC and the RFC as defined the nonce is a simple sequence that increme=
nts by one, so this is no worse off in terms of security. It is non-repeati=
ng.</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin=
-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l2 level2 lfo2">
No linkability because different paths start at a completely different rand=
om number. If repeating is a concern then different paths use different key=
s. Carries forward to not just connection migration but mutli-path.
</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bo=
ttom-alt:auto;mso-list:l2 level2 lfo2">
Supports key rollover just like gQUIC and currently defined draft RFC.</li>=
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-=
alt:auto;mso-list:l2 level2 lfo2">
Allows for omitting the nonce when we use crypto that doesn=E2=80=99t need =
it.</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin=
-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l2 level2 lfo2">
Allows for larger nonces for high data rates. </li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l2 lev=
el2 lfo2">
It doesn=E2=80=99t preclude any other type of non-repeating nonces without =
having to modify the RFC! So implementations that want to use cryptographic=
 nonces can still do so.
</li></ol>
</ol>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">The downsides:</p>
<ol start=3D"1" type=3D"1">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-=
alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3">
Even with variable length encoding the extra PN field is more space used pe=
r packet when a nonce is required. I think we can do with 2 bytes in versio=
n 1.</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margi=
n-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3">
It=E2=80=99s not perfect unlinkabiltiy but I have yet to see any solution t=
hat can provide this. A simple time based analysis using machine learning w=
ill allow flow correlation especially for connection migration. The IP addr=
esses in the clear allow for a high degree
 of correlation. There is also the application sending pattern and other si=
gnals that could be used.
</li></ol>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b>From:</b> Eric Rescorla [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 9, 2018 5:52 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Praveen Balasubramanian &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pravb@microsoft.co=
m" target=3D"_blank">pravb@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> huitema &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:huitema@huitema.net" target=3D"_bl=
ank">huitema@huitema.net</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic@ietf.org</a></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Packet number encryption</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 9:40 PM, Praveen Balasubramanian &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:pravb@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank">pravb@microsoft.com</a>&=
gt; wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">Actually taking a step back what if we don=E2=80=99t we overloaded=
 packet number as the nonce?</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">Can we:</p>
<ol start=3D"1" type=3D"1">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-=
alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo4">
Put packet number as a separate variable length field in the encrypted port=
ion of the header. This allows for growth beyond 64 bits in future and comp=
letely avoids ossification. For short lived flows variable length encoding =
leads to minimal space overhead.
</li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bo=
ttom-alt:auto;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo4">
Put a separate plaintext nonce which starts out as a secure random number a=
nd monotonically increases as short random jumps (every packet or every few=
 packets) and could then rollover. This will prevent linkability and scales=
 to multi-path as well. No major
 compute overhead. We can also make the nonce optional for crypto algorithm=
s that do not need a nonce saving more space.</li></ol>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">I&#39;m not sure how to do #2 safely and efficiently. The primary =
concern is that short random jumps don&#39;t actually prevent linkability b=
ecause the high order bits don&#39;t change and
 long random jumps are effectively randomly sampling out of the nonce space=
, and you start to run into birthday problems. Additionally, the cheapest P=
RNGs are basically ciphers in counter mode, so at best you&#39;re going to =
get a small amount of overhead reduction
 by getting multiple jump computations out of a single block, though if you=
 use 96-bit jumps, you only get 25% savings...</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">-Ekr</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">Some MSB of the nonce could be used for signaling reorder to the n=
etwork if needed. I don=E2=80=99t have the historical context for overloadi=
ng of PN as the nonce so pardon me if un-overloading
 option was discussed and ruled out before.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b>From:</b> QUIC [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org"=
 target=3D"_blank">quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Praveen Balasubramanian<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 8, 2018 5:51 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> huitema &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:huitema@huitema.net" target=3D"_bl=
ank">huitema@huitema.net</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Packet number encryption</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">&gt;&gt; and using separate packet sequences for each path</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">This alone prevents linkability right?</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">&gt;&gt; The packet number on each path will start at 1 (or maybe =
0 ;-).</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">Is supporting multiple paths at the same time a goal? If yes, then=
 yes all paths will need to have separate tracking and ACK state and conges=
tion control etc. I thought this is
 not part of V1 RFC. If its just one additional path for connection migrati=
on scenario then all you need is a (random) jump to a offset in packet numb=
er space for the new path so that the few packets in the old path can conti=
nue for a little bit. This works
 with just one ACK space so no implementation complexity.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">&gt;&gt; 2) Or, leaving the packet number in the clear but using d=
ifferent encryption contexts for each path, and using separate packet seque=
nces for each path.<br>
In addition if the value in the clear was obfuscated with an XOR transform =
it will help prevent ossification. The obfuscation is not meant to guard ag=
ainst later analysis that reveals the packet numbers - why do we care about=
 that. It is meant to grease the
 space and not make the numbers serial so middleboxes cannot assume orderin=
g etc.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">All said if I am alone in being concerned about the perf hit then =
I=E2=80=99d say go on with option 1.
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b>From:</b> QUIC [<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Christian Huitema<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 8, 2018 3:54 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic@ietf.org=
</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Packet number encryption</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
<p>On 2/8/2018 1:13 PM, Mike Bishop wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">#2 won=E2=80=99t work.=C2=A0 The packet number is an input to the =
AEAD nonce, so you have to get to the packet number before you can decrypt =
the payload.=C2=A0 It can=E2=80=99t be based on anything internal
 to the encrypted packet.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">In Martin=E2=80=99s proposal, it=E2=80=99s using a combination of =
the encrypted payload (which requires nothing to access) and some stored st=
ate on each endpoint, which requires only the Connection
 ID to look up.=C2=A0 You want the thing you XOR by to be constantly changi=
ng, or it becomes easier to look at sequences of obfuscated packet numbers =
and start drawing inferences about what the XOR value is.=C2=A0 If overhead=
 is the primary concern, I think there are
 a couple approaches that might allow you to precompute values and amortize=
 the cost of doing the encryption step.=C2=A0 (At the cost of keeping the t=
able of precomputed values, of course.)</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">I still think Jana=E2=80=99s pushing in the right direction here:=
=C2=A0 Let=E2=80=99s agree on goals, and then see if we can craft a design =
that meets those goals.=C2=A0 I hear you saying that low overhead
 is a goal, which I think we can all agree on.=C2=A0 I also think I hear yo=
u saying that 1-1.5% overhead is too high, but it sounds like there=E2=80=
=99s less agreement on that.=C2=A0 You also raise an interesting point that=
 some clients will care less about linkability because
 they will never intentionally migrate.</p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
I think Victor said it best, &quot;Obfuscation is just encryption done poor=
ly.&quot; Either we encrypt, or we don&#39;t. But there is no such thing as=
 an obfuscation middle-ground. Obfuscation would just be a speed bump, easi=
ly broken. It won&#39;t provide privacy, and it won&#39;t
 prevent linkability.<br>
<br>
As far as I am concerned, there are only two designs that prevent linkabili=
ty:<br>
<br>
1) Martin&#39;s PR, in which the packet number is encrypted using sensible =
crypto;<br>
<br>
2) Or, leaving the packet number in the clear but using different encryptio=
n contexts for each path, and using separate packet sequences for each path=
.<br>
<br>
The second option requires more computation when explicitly setting up a ne=
w path. The connection ID would be used as part of the &quot;salt&quot; whe=
n deriving connection contexts. The packet number on each path will start a=
t 1 (or maybe 0 ;-). This requires maintaining
 separate SACK dashboards for each path/Connection-ID, and constraining ACK=
 to be per/path, or alternatively adding a PATH-ACK frame that indicates th=
e path for which packets are acked.<br>
<br>
The pros and cons of the two options are easy to get:<br>
<br>
1) Option 2 does not require the cost of encrypting every packet, thus per =
packet processing will be maybe 1% faster than option 1.
<br>
<br>
2) Option 2 requires computing encryption contexts for each path, which is =
more complex than option 1, but the cost will be amortized over the duratio=
n of the path.<br>
<br>
3) Option 2 requires more complex data structures and ACK management, thus =
increasing the chances that something goes wrong.<br>
<br>
4) Option 2 does nothing against packet number ossification. The packet num=
ber effectively becomes part of the invariants.<br>
<br>
In short, the only advantage of option 2 is to avoid a single symmetric enc=
ryption operation per packet, while making the code significantly more comp=
lex, and at the cost of not protecting against PN ossification. The way I s=
ee that, there is hardly any debate.<br>
<br>
-- Christian Huitema</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>


</div></div></span></blockquote></body></html>

--f403045d914c4603dc0564ce1166--


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From: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
To: Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv@google.com>
CC: Marten Seemann <martenseemann@gmail.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>,  huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
Subject: RE: Packet number encryption
Thread-Topic: Packet number encryption
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Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
To: Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv@google.com>, Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
Cc: "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, huitema <huitema@huitema.net>,  Marten Seemann <martenseemann@gmail.com>
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--001a1140d9449d126c0564ce3224
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I am very confused about the 1.25% number.  1280 bytes is about 80 AES
blocks, and one extra block is 1.25% on top of total *encryption* costs
(you don't have to MAC the PN, so that's even cheaper).  And the encryption
itself is fairly cheap compared to almost any other part of the QUIC stack
(sent packet tracking, ack processing, I/O, timers, etc).

This is for the large file upload case. It does not consider low latency
applications with small messages and separate cores for different
responsibilities. It also does not consider that that a single block costs
the same as 4 blocks on Intel, nor does it consider that the packet cannot
be decoded in-place. But yes, in the common large file download case, the
cost is not very significant. But it can be significant enough to choose
another protocol in other scenarios. So there needs to be a really good
reason to add this extra latency step. Linkability might be an argument,
and ossification might be too, and the complexity of alternatives might as
well. However, I=E2=80=99m not convinced. I=E2=80=99m also not completely d=
ismissing it,
but I would like to see alternatives explored more thoroughly before
throwing in a cost for no good reason.

--001a1140d9449d126c0564ce3224
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq" style=3D"font-family:Helvet=
ica,Arial;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-we=
ight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tra=
nsform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span><div><div><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>I am ve=
ry confused about the 1.25% number.=C2=A0 1280 bytes is about 80 AES blocks=
, and one extra block is 1.25% on top of total *encryption* costs (you don&=
#39;t have to MAC the PN, so that&#39;s even cheaper).=C2=A0 And the encryp=
tion itself is fairly cheap compared to almost any other part of the QUIC s=
tack (sent packet tracking, ack processing, I/O, timers, etc).</div></div><=
/div></div></div></div></span></blockquote></div><p>This is for the large f=
ile upload case. It does not consider low latency applications with small m=
essages and separate cores for different responsibilities. It also does not=
 consider that that a single block costs the same as 4 blocks on Intel, nor=
 does it consider that the packet cannot be decoded in-place. But yes, in t=
he common large file download case, the cost is not very significant. But i=
t can be significant enough to choose another protocol in other scenarios. =
So there needs to be a really good reason to add this extra latency step. L=
inkability might be an argument, and ossification might be too, and the com=
plexity of alternatives might as well. However, I=E2=80=99m not convinced. =
I=E2=80=99m also not completely dismissing it, but I would like to see alte=
rnatives explored more thoroughly before throwing in a cost for no good rea=
son.</p><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq" style=3D"font-fam=
ily:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:norm=
al;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0p=
x;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span><div><div>=
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"></di=
v></div></div></div></div></span></blockquote></div></body></html>

--001a1140d9449d126c0564ce3224--


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From: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2018 08:35:03 +1100
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Subject: Re: Review of QCRAM
To: Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>
Cc: Lucas Pardue <Lucas.Pardue@bbc.co.uk>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 4:56 AM, Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be> wrote:
> Your observation that you=E2=80=99re keeping a tuple of stream-blocknum o=
n each
> entry is interesting.  Can you go into more detail where this is?  Couldn=
=E2=80=99t
> you also keep a simple refcount of outstanding blocks, then separately tr=
ack
> which entries are referenced by outstanding blocks?  IIRC, in QCRAM there=
=E2=80=99s
> not a situation in which you need to determine which outstanding header
> block is blocking eviction, only whether an outstanding HEADERS frame blo=
cks
> eviction.  Or am I misunderstanding where you=E2=80=99re keeping the tupl=
e?

So you send out two header blocks on a stream.  One includes
:status=3D307, the other digest=3Dblah.  When the acks come in, they
identify the stream.  The first ack needs to ensure that it removes
any block on :status=3D307, the second digest=3Dblah.  You can't just say
that ":status=3D307 is blocked from eviction, because you need to know
when it is no longer blocked, which means tracking where you sent it.

A refcount of outstanding blocks will likely never hit zero, meaning
you can never evict.

I realize now that I didn't consider stream resets, which my scheme
doesn't manage well (you need to have a nuke-all-that-partially-match
option).


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From: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2018 08:36:02 +1100
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Subject: Re: Review of QCRAM
To: Lucas Pardue <Lucas.Pardue@bbc.co.uk>
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It would be relatively easy in my implementation to have different
static tables.  (I was a bit harder in other versions of my code.)

On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 9:51 PM, Lucas Pardue <Lucas.Pardue@bbc.co.uk> wrote:
> Hi Martin,
>
> Very interesting, thanks.
>
> Given that your implementation supports both HPACK and QCRAM, do you have any opinion how much pain it would be to have different static tables between them?
>
> Regards
> Lucas
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Martin Thomson
>> Sent: 09 February 2018 10:09
>> To: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Review of QCRAM
>>
>> I have implemented QCRAM and have a few things to comment on.
>>
>> My implementation is here:
>>   https://github.com/martinthomson/minhq/tree/master/hc
>>
>> This is my first attempt at go, so this took a little longer than it might have
>> otherwise. Test coverage is still a little light, though go thinks that I have
>> pretty good coverage. There's probably still a lot to go on the corner cases,
>> but I think that I've done enough to get an idea for the complexity bump.
>>
>> I started by implementing HPACK, which is surprisingly easy if you don't care
>> about being efficient. Though I knew that I was going to add QCRAM, I made
>> only minimal design concessions when building HPACK.
>>
>> Building QCRAM on top of HPACK took at least 50% more than just doing
>> HPACK (at a guess, HPACK took about 10-12 hours, QCRAM took closer to 20).
>> Even though you can reuse Huffman coding and most of the primitives,
>> retrofitting it was tricky. My lack of familiarity with go definitely contributed a
>> lot to that, but I'd say that QCRAM is more difficult to implement than it
>> seems in theory.
>>
>> I didn't implement QCRAM entirely as specified. There are a few things that
>> I'll describe below that would make it either better or easier to implement
>> (or both).
>>
>>
>> # Separate Stream Roles
>>
>> There are actually three streams of data that are of interest, and there is no
>> clarity about those streams.
>>
>> 1. I suggest that we use unidirectional streams in each direction for table
>> updates.
>>
>> 2. A separate stream for acknowledgments ensures that the encoder can
>> consume that separately to the decoder.
>>
>> 3. Request/response streams. I think that we all understand these.
>>
>> These can be separate from the hq control stream, and they should be.
>> Rather than pick a specific stream number, we should add a header for these
>> streams that will allow them to be identified clearly. If we do that, add strict
>> rules about cardinality.
>>
>> # Define Framing More Clearly
>>
>> The definition of the framing that is used on the control stream is unclear. I
>> assume that the intent is to use HEADERS frames, but I'm only really
>> guessing.
>> If you take my suggestion for separate framing, then you can use very
>> different logic for the different streams.
>>
>> Honestly, the overhead of framing is excessive for anything but
>> request/response streams. I found that framing on the control stream wasn't
>> necessary at all. This might depend on implementation strategy, because it
>> might be easier to collect a framed thing than it is to read until you are
>> blocked, then pickle that state so that you can go back to something else. In
>> my implementation I hold state on the stack, so it's pretty easy.
>>
>> Also, it should suffice to have just a stream of varints indicating
>> acknowledgments. Duplicates can be used to acknowledge multiple header
>> blocks on the same stream in order.
>>
>> # Split the Instruction Space
>>
>> Having to check that only certain instructions appear on different streams is
>> annoying to implement and a waste of bits. Define two separate spaces. That
>> should make things much simpler: there are exactly two instructions in each
>> space then (leaving aside acknowledgments, which I will cover below).
>>
>> # Base in Every HEADERS Frame
>>
>> Base (the number of inserts in the table at the start of a header block) seems
>> to be required for all HEADERS frames, including both table modification and
>> request/response streams.  But...
>>
>> # Base on the Table Update Stream
>>
>> You don't need base for table updates. It is more of a hazard than a help. It is
>> easier if you treat indexing on the table update stream as in HPACK where
>> each insert moves the reference point for the next insertion.
>>
>> # Remove BLOCKING
>>
>> The BLOCKING flag complicates the design unnecessarily. As a fixed
>> overhead, pay the extra byte always. Furthermore, the table update stream
>> will never need to use depends, so that further motivates having different
>> instruction sets (and formats) for different streams.  And you don't need it...
>>
>> # Base and the Static Table
>>
>> It is not explained at all that the base is applied to the dynamic table only.
>> That is, index 1 is a straight index into the static table and that index 62 will
>> use the current number of inserts and the base to determine the actual
>> index into the dynamic table (this is the first table entry only when the
>> number of table inserts and base are the same, if the base is smaller, then it
>> will be further along the table).
>>
>> To be clear, my logic for finding entries is:
>>
>>     if i == 0: error
>>     if i <= len(staticTable): return staticTable[i-1]
>>     delta = tableBase - base
>>     if delta < 0: error
>>     return dynamicTable[i - len(staticTable) - 1 + delta]
>>
>> # Remove Depends
>>
>> Depends is useless. I did not implement it. Base is sufficient.
>>
>> This follows from preferring to use the smallest value for base possible.
>> Doing that also keeps table references as small as possible. (Because
>> references are counted in the opposite direction to base, a larger base
>> means larger
>> references.)
>>
>> The cost is that you have to do a two pass check: the first to find the newest
>> reference, the second to write out the header block. I find that it's basically
>> necessary to do two passes anyway: on the first I write out the table
>> updates, on the second I write the header block. During that phase you want
>> to do lookups anyway, so you can save the largest base from that pass. Also,
>> when you insert anything, that tends to set the base, so it's pretty easy
>> overall.
>>
>> # Tracking ACKs is Harder Than It Seems
>>
>> There are multiple header blocks per stream, and ACKs only identify the
>> stream.
>> You can't just store a stream reference (or Request-ID) against each header
>> block, you have to store a tuple of stream and header block index. This needs
>> to be explained somewhere.
>>
>> I decided to externalize ACKs - the QCRAM encoder takes a generic blob as
>> input when it encodes a header block and the same generic blob to
>> acknowledge it. The caller then has to combine stream ID and header block
>> index in a sensible fashion.
>>
>> # Acknowledge Dmitry
>>
>> So I don't forget... Dmitry did a lot of work on the design team.
>>
>> # Dynamic Table Overhead
>>
>> The draft has a TODO about overhead for each dynamic entry. I added a field
>> to every entry that allows it to know its own position in the table, but that is a
>> simplification/optimization, and you don't really need that. The other per-
>> record overheads are all the same for the decoder, with a small increase to
>> the fixed overhead. It's a little more state for an encoder, but that is mostly
>> because of having to track usage.
>>
>> I don't think that we need to change from a 32 byte overhead. This decision
>> could reduce code complexity in shared QCRAM/HPACK implementations (in
>> my implementation it would).
>>
>> # Duplication Doesn't Need to Reference the Static Table
>>
>> Duplication only makes sense for dynamic entries and yet the index is (I
>> assume), the normal table index. That is highly suboptimal. This is worse
>> because the prefix is only 5 bits for this instruction (up to 62 values), which
>> leads to the encoding taking an extra byte always. If you take my suggestion
>> for separate instruction spaces, this is better, but still not as good as a direct
>> index into the dynamic table, starting at 0. Better yet would be a reverse
>> index, starting from the end of the table, because duplication often needs to
>> refer to the end of the table.
>>
>> # Need Better Advice on Referencing strategy
>>
>> Referencing entries near the end of the table in a new header block is
>> hazardous. If you just compress as you do in HPACK, you can end up pinning
>> entries in the header table, making it impossible to add new entries. Thus,
>> you have to stop referencing entries as they get nearer to the table capacity
>> limit.
>>
>> In my implementation I added a threshold variable that governs my
>> referencing strategy. A portion of the header table space is marked as being
>> off-limits for header block usage. The encoder duplicates those entries if it
>> wants to compress, but won't reference them. If the table is under pressure
>> from the new header fields being added, then it should be able to advance
>> by at least this amount every round trip.
>>
>> This is a simple strategy, and probably suboptimal in various ways, but it
>> seems to work out. For instance, I continuously update the cutoff as entries
>> are inserted, so that a header block might end up referencing things that get
>> pushed into this space by later header fields.
>>
>> You can imagine more advanced techniques. For instance, you might tune
>> this window automatically based on the rate that the header table grows.
>> Because references in that window block eviction, it should be sized to the
>> rate of
>> *desired* growth in the header table over a round trip. Taking a running
>> estimate of that desired growth and allowing a margin for variance could
>> produce the right value. I haven't experimented with this.
>


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From: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 16:46:28 -0500
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Subject: Re: hardware offload (was: Packet number encryption)
To: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
Cc: "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>, Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>,  "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>
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I should say that I don't have a specific API, implementation, or NIC in
mind, so hopefully someone(Praveen?) can provide some context about what is
possible with existing APIs or what is relatively easy to add to them.

The API I had in mind was of the "encrypt this byte string" form, but in
the NIC.  ie: When I write a sequence of packets I supply crypto info, as
well as a minimum release time(or pacing rate).  The goal is to do the bulk
crypto as the network stack is packetizing and copying into the NIC
memory.  Ideally this can avoid an extra memcpy and avoids touching the
data to be sent until the last possible moment.

Hardware acceleration of AES in modern CPUs is extremely good, so another
approach is to do the above in a userspace networking stack or the kernel
and use the CPU's AES acceleration.  If the networking code that was
writing into NIC memory had a deep understanding of QUIC, possibly it could
do the packet number encryption as a second pass?

On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 3:17 PM, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
wrote:

> On 2/9/2018 8:20 AM, Ian Swett wrote:
>
> > One issue with the current encryption proposal is you can't use
> > hardware crypto offload for the bulk encryption because the packet
> > number has to be encrypted after the bulk data.
> >
> > Any suggestions on how to fix that?
>
> Ian, could you be a bit more explicit about the type of hardware offload
> that you have in mind?
>
> I can think of two extreme types. One is embedding crypto offload in the
> NIC, and is generally tied to TCP/TLS/TLO. That one type has no hope
> whatsoever of working with UDP/QUIC. The other type is simply providing
> an "encrypt this byte string" API, and can be trivially used with QUIC
> -- much like we can use Intel's AES extended instructions today. So
> obviously you have something else in mind, and maybe you should explain it.
>
> -- Christian Huitema
>
>
>
>

--94eb2c11479635b1240564ce77f4
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>I should say that I don&#39;t have a specific API, im=
plementation, or NIC in mind, so hopefully someone(Praveen?) can provide so=
me context about what is possible with existing APIs or what is relatively =
easy to add to them.</div><div><br></div>The API I had in mind was of the &=
quot;encrypt this byte string&quot; form, but in the NIC.=C2=A0 ie: When I =
write a sequence of packets I supply crypto info, as well as a minimum rele=
ase time(or pacing rate).=C2=A0 The goal is to do the bulk crypto as the ne=
twork stack is packetizing and copying into the NIC memory.=C2=A0 Ideally t=
his can avoid an extra memcpy and avoids touching the data to be sent until=
 the last possible moment.<div><br></div><div>Hardware acceleration of AES =
in modern CPUs is extremely good, so another approach is to do the above in=
 a userspace networking stack or the kernel and use the CPU&#39;s AES accel=
eration.=C2=A0 If the networking code that was writing into NIC memory had =
a deep understanding of QUIC, possibly it could do the packet number encryp=
tion as a second pass?</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 3:17 PM, Christian Huitema <span di=
r=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:huitema@huitema.net" target=3D"_blank">huit=
ema@huitema.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">On =
2/9/2018 8:20 AM, Ian Swett wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; One issue with the current encryption proposal is you can&#39;t use<br=
>
&gt; hardware crypto offload for the bulk encryption because the packet<br>
&gt; number has to be encrypted after the bulk data.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Any suggestions on how to fix that?<br>
<br>
Ian, could you be a bit more explicit about the type of hardware offload<br=
>
that you have in mind?<br>
<br>
I can think of two extreme types. One is embedding crypto offload in the<br=
>
NIC, and is generally tied to TCP/TLS/TLO. That one type has no hope<br>
whatsoever of working with UDP/QUIC. The other type is simply providing<br>
an &quot;encrypt this byte string&quot; API, and can be trivially used with=
 QUIC<br>
-- much like we can use Intel&#39;s AES extended instructions today. So<br>
obviously you have something else in mind, and maybe you should explain it.=
<br>
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
-- Christian Huitema<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div>

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From: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2018 08:49:51 +1100
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Subject: Re: Review of QCRAM
To: "Charles 'Buck' Krasic" <ckrasic@google.com>
Cc: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 7:36 AM, Charles 'Buck' Krasic
<ckrasic@google.com> wrote:
>> 2. A separate stream for acknowledgments ensures that the encoder can
>> consume that separately to the decoder.
>
> I have a hard time seeing a practical difference, but sure.

Consider that acknowledgments go to an encoder, and stream updates go
to a decoder.  These are entirely separate in my code, and I'd expect
that to be common.  Having to demux could be difficult - and it adds
overhead.

>> # Base and the Static Table
>>
>> It is not explained at all that the base is applied to the dynamic table
>> only.
>
> afrind@ pointed this out Jan. 24 in a design committee thread (About
> simplifying QCRAM further.)    The editors copy had significant work to try
> and clarify these points.   Again sections 3.2 and 3.3.  Also in response to
> earlier feedback, Section 4.2, has a lot of new implementation guidance.

I don't understand 3.3.  I'm happy to send a PR that clarifies things.

> It's a nit, but in my proxygen prototype, I didn't have to do two passes,
> partly because FB's IOBuf abstraction has powerful abilities to prepend
> prefixes to an existing buf, avoiding the need for two pass logic.

Sure, if you can do that, you just update the base at the end.  I
found that to be unnecessary because it's easy to write out table
changes in one pass, then all the references in a second pass.  The
only extra overhead is iteration (over small N, that's not a real
cost).

>> # Tracking ACKs is Harder Than It Seems
>
> See above, I think the new stuff in Section 4.2 covers this.

I think that could be improved.  I might have a PR for you later (or
maybe after this becomes a WG item).


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From: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 16:53:24 -0500
Message-ID: <CAKcm_gP1UF=+0zLK+Nfa0KMeqEwwJyi3uUVWU_UNGhc05TNEZg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
To: "Deval, Manasi" <manasi.deval@intel.com>
Cc: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>, David Benjamin <davidben@chromium.org>,  Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
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Good question.  I'm still trying to understand how crypto offload might
work for QUIC, but I tried to clarify what I was thinking on the side
thread Christian started.  But yes, the two step encryption was the
concern, particularly the need to use the results of the bulk crypto when
encrypting the packet number.

On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 4:16 PM, Deval, Manasi <manasi.deval@intel.com>
wrote:

> Hi All,
>
>
>
> The issue with TCP crypto offload does not directly apply to the QUIC
> Crypto offload. For example, received TCP frames need to be coalesced
> before decryption. This is a prohibitive operation to achieve in hardware
> but much simpler to achieve in the software. The QUIC data encryption and
> header update is therefore achievable.
>
>
>
> Encrypting the packet number complicates the crypto offload, though. Is
> there another way to achieve the same security? In some early tests with
> the existing QUIC stacks, I see that the crypto cost is quite significant
> so high speed deployments may find use of crypto offload.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Manasi
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Deval, Manasi
> *Sent:* Friday, February 09, 2018 12:55 PM
> *To:* Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>; David Benjamin <
> davidben@chromium.org>
>
> *Cc:* Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>; quic@ietf.org; huitema <
> huitema@huitema.net>
> *Subject:* RE: Packet number encryption
>
>
>
> Going back to Ian=E2=80=99s point here =E2=80=93 Can you be explicit abou=
t the issue you
> see in the packet number encryption?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Manasi
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org <quic-bounces@ietf.org>] *On
> Behalf Of *Praveen Balasubramanian
> *Sent:* Friday, February 09, 2018 11:59 AM
> *To:* David Benjamin <davidben@chromium.org>
> *Cc:* Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>; quic@ietf.org; huitema <
> huitema@huitema.net>
> *Subject:* RE: Packet number encryption
>
>
>
> With VLE its minimal overhead per packet so you are not encrypting 4 byte=
s
> more all the time even with 64 bit or 128 bit packet number . So its
> decidedly better. Also fewer calls into TLS, but I suppose one could do
> some refactoring of TLS API. Many CPUs yes but this is a general purpose
> transport and could run on CPUs that don=E2=80=99t.
>
>
>
> Didn=E2=80=99t ask for nonce to be variable length. Fixed length for conn=
ection
> lifetime. Datacenters connections could use 64-bit nonce to avoid frequen=
t
> key rollover.
>
>
>
> Effectively the plain text nonce is a sequence number since it increases
> monotonically with small jumps as needed to avoid ossification. So no wor=
se
> off than gQUIC or current draft. No more complex than using the packet
> number. Just the starting number is randomized. Also please notice that
> this proposal does not preclude using encrypted packet number as the nonc=
e
> as proposed previously. Changing how the nonce works makes 0 impact on th=
e
> transport logic. An implementation can choose to implement any form of
> non-repeating nonce without revving the RFC. This is the biggest advantag=
e
> of separation of concerns IMHO.
>
>
>
> *From:* David Benjamin [mailto:davidben@chromium.org
> <davidben@chromium.org>]
> *Sent:* Friday, February 9, 2018 11:39 AM
> *To:* Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
> *Cc:* Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>; quic@ietf.org; huitema <
> huitema@huitema.net>
> *Subject:* Re: Packet number encryption
>
>
>
> Your primary worry here was the extra block cipher operation, right? By
> moving the packet number into the plaintext, this proposal increases the
> length, which will cost that same one extra block cipher operation, no?
>
>
>
> It is one block operation under the same key, rather than a different key
> so I suppose there are minuscule cache footprint wins (one symmetric key =
is
> 16 or 32 bytes). But the cost is per-packet (!) bandwidth and complexity.=
 I
> do not see how this could be worth it. Note that, for AES, many CPUs have
> dedicated instructions for it already.
>
>
>
> > Clear separation of concerns results if we don=E2=80=99t overload the p=
acket
> number as the nonce. Connection migration and multi-path are optional
> features and we pay no extra compute cost for most connections that are n=
ot
> impacted by unlnkability. Nonce field becomes optional for crypto that
> doesn=E2=80=99t need it and can grow to larger size as needed for bulk tr=
ansfers to
> prevent frequent key rollovers (say in datacenter scenarios).
>
>
>
> You're not going to find AEADs that don't require a nonce. Encryption mus=
t
> not produce the same ciphertext twice for the same plaintext, so you need
> some input to diversify them. That input is the nonce. Nonces also are no=
t
> variable-length, so you don't get to arbitrarily grow them. (AES-GCM per
> spec is variable length, but that's a spec bug. If you size it above 96
> bits, it's as if you randomized it and your nonce space crashes per
> birthday.)
>
>
>
> It is also harmful to separate the two concerns. When you are building a
> transport, derive the nonce from a sequence number. TLS 1.2 AES-GCM
> separated them, which was a mistake. It's less efficient (the world waste=
d
> quite a lot of bandwidth due to this), and more error-prone. There was
> nothing stopping implementations from sending the same nonce or generatin=
g
> nonces randomly (the AEADs we use don't have large enough nonces for that=
),
> and indeed some did just that. If you use some sort of sequence number, y=
ou
> can lean on existing work both to filter out the obvious implementation
> mistakes and to avoid sending unnecessary data.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 12:38 PM Praveen Balasubramanian <
> pravb@microsoft.com> wrote:
>
> Let me try to summarize the proposal again:
>
>
>
>    1. Packet number is in the encrypted portion of the header and is no
>    longer used as the nonce. It is encoded as a variable length number. A=
lways
>    starts at 0.
>
>
>    1. No ossification of PN
>       2. No linkability using PN
>       3. Allows for growth beyond 64 bits if needed in future
>
>
>    1. The nonce is in the clear in plaintext header. It is generated *per
>    path* as a secure random number. Call this the =E2=80=9Cstarting value=
=E2=80=9D. Both
>    sides MUST initialize the =E2=80=9Cstarting value=E2=80=9D nonce *per =
path*. Within a
>    path it grows monotonically (to avoid repeats just like PN today) and =
can
>    include short random jumps periodically so that middleboxes cannot ass=
ume
>    anything about the field. Since nonce has nothing to do with PN the ju=
mps
>    don=E2=80=99t add any complexity to transport logic. Jumps are for gre=
asing and
>    preventing ossification. When the nonce rolls over and reaches close t=
o the
>    =E2=80=9Cstarting value=E2=80=9D, key rollover must happen. At high da=
ta rates the nonce
>    field can be 64-bits to prevent frequent key rollover. For crypto that
>    doesn=E2=80=99t need nonces, the field can be omitted.
>
>
>    1. No ossification because there is no pre-determined sequence to the
>       nonce.
>       2. In gQUIC and the RFC as defined the nonce is a simple sequence
>       that increments by one, so this is no worse off in terms of securit=
y. It is
>       non-repeating.
>       3. No linkability because different paths start at a completely
>       different random number. If repeating is a concern then different p=
aths use
>       different keys. Carries forward to not just connection migration bu=
t
>       mutli-path.
>       4. Supports key rollover just like gQUIC and currently defined
>       draft RFC.
>       5. Allows for omitting the nonce when we use crypto that doesn=E2=
=80=99t
>       need it.
>       6. Allows for larger nonces for high data rates.
>       7. It doesn=E2=80=99t preclude any other type of non-repeating nonc=
es
>       without having to modify the RFC! So implementations that want to u=
se
>       cryptographic nonces can still do so.
>
>
>
> The downsides:
>
>    1. Even with variable length encoding the extra PN field is more space
>    used per packet when a nonce is required. I think we can do with 2 byt=
es in
>    version 1.
>    2. It=E2=80=99s not perfect unlinkabiltiy but I have yet to see any so=
lution
>    that can provide this. A simple time based analysis using machine lear=
ning
>    will allow flow correlation especially for connection migration. The I=
P
>    addresses in the clear allow for a high degree of correlation. There i=
s
>    also the application sending pattern and other signals that could be u=
sed.
>
>
>
> *From:* Eric Rescorla [mailto:ekr@rtfm.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, February 9, 2018 5:52 AM
> *To:* Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
> *Cc:* huitema <huitema@huitema.net>; quic@ietf.org
>
>
> *Subject:* Re: Packet number encryption
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 9:40 PM, Praveen Balasubramanian <
> pravb@microsoft.com> wrote:
>
> Actually taking a step back what if we don=E2=80=99t we overloaded packet=
 number
> as the nonce?
>
>
>
> Can we:
>
>    1. Put packet number as a separate variable length field in the
>    encrypted portion of the header. This allows for growth beyond 64 bits=
 in
>    future and completely avoids ossification. For short lived flows varia=
ble
>    length encoding leads to minimal space overhead.
>    2. Put a separate plaintext nonce which starts out as a secure random
>    number and monotonically increases as short random jumps (every packet=
 or
>    every few packets) and could then rollover. This will prevent linkabil=
ity
>    and scales to multi-path as well. No major compute overhead. We can al=
so
>    make the nonce optional for crypto algorithms that do not need a nonce
>    saving more space.
>
>
>
> I'm not sure how to do #2 safely and efficiently. The primary concern is
> that short random jumps don't actually prevent linkability because the hi=
gh
> order bits don't change and long random jumps are effectively randomly
> sampling out of the nonce space, and you start to run into birthday
> problems. Additionally, the cheapest PRNGs are basically ciphers in count=
er
> mode, so at best you're going to get a small amount of overhead reduction
> by getting multiple jump computations out of a single block, though if yo=
u
> use 96-bit jumps, you only get 25% savings...
>
>
>
> -Ekr
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Some MSB of the nonce could be used for signaling reorder to the network
> if needed. I don=E2=80=99t have the historical context for overloading of=
 PN as the
> nonce so pardon me if un-overloading option was discussed and ruled out
> before.
>
>
>
> *From:* QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Praveen
> Balasubramanian
> *Sent:* Thursday, February 8, 2018 5:51 PM
> *To:* huitema <huitema@huitema.net>; quic@ietf.org
> *Subject:* RE: Packet number encryption
>
>
>
> >> and using separate packet sequences for each path
>
> This alone prevents linkability right?
>
>
>
> >> The packet number on each path will start at 1 (or maybe 0 ;-).
>
> Is supporting multiple paths at the same time a goal? If yes, then yes al=
l
> paths will need to have separate tracking and ACK state and congestion
> control etc. I thought this is not part of V1 RFC. If its just one
> additional path for connection migration scenario then all you need is a
> (random) jump to a offset in packet number space for the new path so that
> the few packets in the old path can continue for a little bit. This works
> with just one ACK space so no implementation complexity.
>
>
>
> >> 2) Or, leaving the packet number in the clear but using different
> encryption contexts for each path, and using separate packet sequences fo=
r
> each path.
> In addition if the value in the clear was obfuscated with an XOR transfor=
m
> it will help prevent ossification. The obfuscation is not meant to guard
> against later analysis that reveals the packet numbers - why do we care
> about that. It is meant to grease the space and not make the numbers seri=
al
> so middleboxes cannot assume ordering etc.
>
>
>
> All said if I am alone in being concerned about the perf hit then I=E2=80=
=99d say
> go on with option 1.
>
>
>
> *From:* QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org <quic-bounces@ietf.org>] *On
> Behalf Of *Christian Huitema
> *Sent:* Thursday, February 8, 2018 3:54 PM
> *To:* quic@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: Packet number encryption
>
>
>
> On 2/8/2018 1:13 PM, Mike Bishop wrote:
>
> #2 won=E2=80=99t work.  The packet number is an input to the AEAD nonce, =
so you
> have to get to the packet number before you can decrypt the payload.  It
> can=E2=80=99t be based on anything internal to the encrypted packet.
>
>
>
> In Martin=E2=80=99s proposal, it=E2=80=99s using a combination of the enc=
rypted payload
> (which requires nothing to access) and some stored state on each endpoint=
,
> which requires only the Connection ID to look up.  You want the thing you
> XOR by to be constantly changing, or it becomes easier to look at sequenc=
es
> of obfuscated packet numbers and start drawing inferences about what the
> XOR value is.  If overhead is the primary concern, I think there are a
> couple approaches that might allow you to precompute values and amortize
> the cost of doing the encryption step.  (At the cost of keeping the table
> of precomputed values, of course.)
>
>
>
> I still think Jana=E2=80=99s pushing in the right direction here:  Let=E2=
=80=99s agree on
> goals, and then see if we can craft a design that meets those goals.  I
> hear you saying that low overhead is a goal, which I think we can all agr=
ee
> on.  I also think I hear you saying that 1-1.5% overhead is too high, but
> it sounds like there=E2=80=99s less agreement on that.  You also raise an
> interesting point that some clients will care less about linkability
> because they will never intentionally migrate.
>
>
> I think Victor said it best, "Obfuscation is just encryption done poorly.=
"
> Either we encrypt, or we don't. But there is no such thing as an
> obfuscation middle-ground. Obfuscation would just be a speed bump, easily
> broken. It won't provide privacy, and it won't prevent linkability.
>
> As far as I am concerned, there are only two designs that prevent
> linkability:
>
> 1) Martin's PR, in which the packet number is encrypted using sensible
> crypto;
>
> 2) Or, leaving the packet number in the clear but using different
> encryption contexts for each path, and using separate packet sequences fo=
r
> each path.
>
> The second option requires more computation when explicitly setting up a
> new path. The connection ID would be used as part of the "salt" when
> deriving connection contexts. The packet number on each path will start a=
t
> 1 (or maybe 0 ;-). This requires maintaining separate SACK dashboards for
> each path/Connection-ID, and constraining ACK to be per/path, or
> alternatively adding a PATH-ACK frame that indicates the path for which
> packets are acked.
>
> The pros and cons of the two options are easy to get:
>
> 1) Option 2 does not require the cost of encrypting every packet, thus pe=
r
> packet processing will be maybe 1% faster than option 1.
>
> 2) Option 2 requires computing encryption contexts for each path, which i=
s
> more complex than option 1, but the cost will be amortized over the
> duration of the path.
>
> 3) Option 2 requires more complex data structures and ACK management, thu=
s
> increasing the chances that something goes wrong.
>
> 4) Option 2 does nothing against packet number ossification. The packet
> number effectively becomes part of the invariants.
>
> In short, the only advantage of option 2 is to avoid a single symmetric
> encryption operation per packet, while making the code significantly more
> complex, and at the cost of not protecting against PN ossification. The w=
ay
> I see that, there is hardly any debate.
>
> -- Christian Huitema
>
>
>
>

--001a113f94f40019ea0564ce909a
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Good question.=C2=A0 I&#39;m still trying to understand ho=
w crypto offload might work for QUIC, but I tried to clarify what I was thi=
nking on the side thread Christian started.=C2=A0 But yes, the two step enc=
ryption was the concern, particularly the need to use the results of the bu=
lk crypto when encrypting the packet number.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra=
"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 4:16 PM, Deval, Man=
asi <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:manasi.deval@intel.com" target=
=3D"_blank">manasi.deval@intel.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pa=
dding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_-8936939707042141152WordSection1">
<p class=3D"m_-8936939707042141152MsoPlainText">Hi All,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-8936939707042141152MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-8936939707042141152MsoPlainText">The issue with TCP crypto o=
ffload does not directly apply to the QUIC Crypto offload. For example, rec=
eived TCP frames need to be coalesced before decryption. This is a prohibit=
ive operation to achieve in hardware but much simpler to
 achieve in the software. The QUIC data encryption and header update is the=
refore achievable.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-8936939707042141152MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-8936939707042141152MsoPlainText">Encrypting the packet numbe=
r complicates the crypto offload, though. Is there another way to achieve t=
he same security? In some early tests with the existing QUIC stacks, I see =
that the crypto cost is quite significant so high speed
 deployments may find use of crypto offload.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-8936939707042141152MsoPlainText"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-8936939707042141152MsoPlainText">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"m_-8936939707042141152MsoPlainText">Manasi<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"m_-8936939707042141152__MailEndCompose"><=
span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></a></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> QUIC [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bou=
nces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of
</b>Deval, Manasi<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 09, 2018 12:55 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Praveen Balasubramanian &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pravb@microsoft.co=
m" target=3D"_blank">pravb@microsoft.com</a>&gt;; David Benjamin &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:davidben@chromium.org" target=3D"_blank">davidben@chromium.org<=
/a>&gt;</p><div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Eric Rescorla &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">quic@ietf.org</a>; huitema &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:huitema@huitema.net" tar=
get=3D"_blank">huitema@huitema.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Packet number encryption<u></u><u></u></div></div><p></=
p>
</div>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Going back to Ian=E2=
=80=99s point here =E2=80=93 Can you be explicit about the issue you see in=
 the packet number encryption?
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Thanks,<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d">Manasi<u></u><u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> QUIC [<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bounces@ie=
tf.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Praveen Balasubramanian<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 09, 2018 11:59 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> David Benjamin &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:davidben@chromium.org" targ=
et=3D"_blank">davidben@chromium.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Eric Rescorla &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">
quic@ietf.org</a>; huitema &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:huitema@huitema.net" targe=
t=3D"_blank">huitema@huitema.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Packet number encryption<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">With VLE its minimal overhead per packet so you are =
not encrypting 4 bytes more all the time even with 64 bit or 128 bit packet=
 number . So its decidedly better. Also fewer calls into TLS, but I suppose=
 one could do some refactoring of
 TLS API. Many CPUs yes but this is a general purpose transport and could r=
un on CPUs that don=E2=80=99t.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Didn=E2=80=99t ask for nonce to be variable length. =
Fixed length for connection lifetime. Datacenters connections could use 64-=
bit nonce to avoid frequent key rollover.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Effectively the plain text nonce is a sequence numbe=
r since it increases monotonically with small jumps as needed to avoid ossi=
fication. So no worse off than gQUIC or current draft. No more complex than=
 using the packet number. Just the
 starting number is randomized. Also please notice that this proposal does =
not preclude using encrypted packet number as the nonce as proposed previou=
sly. Changing how the nonce works makes 0 impact on the transport logic. An=
 implementation can choose to implement
 any form of non-repeating nonce without revving the RFC. This is the bigge=
st advantage of separation of concerns IMHO.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> David Benjamin [<a href=3D"mailto:david=
ben@chromium.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:davidben@chromium.org</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 9, 2018 11:39 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Praveen Balasubramanian &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pravb@microsoft.co=
m" target=3D"_blank">pravb@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Eric Rescorla &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank=
">
quic@ietf.org</a>; huitema &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:huitema@huitema.net" targe=
t=3D"_blank">huitema@huitema.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Packet number encryption<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Your primary worry here was the extra block cipher o=
peration, right? By moving the packet number into the plaintext, this propo=
sal increases the length, which will cost that same one extra block cipher =
operation, no?<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It is one block operation under the same key, rather=
 than a different key so I suppose there are minuscule=C2=A0cache footprint=
 wins (one symmetric key is 16 or 32 bytes). But the cost is per-packet (!)=
 bandwidth and complexity. I do not see
 how this could be worth it.=C2=A0Note that, for AES, many CPUs have dedica=
ted instructions for it already.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&gt;=C2=A0Clear separation of concerns results if we=
 don=E2=80=99t overload the packet number as the nonce. Connection migratio=
n and multi-path are optional features and we pay no extra compute cost for=
 most connections that are not impacted by unlnkability.
 Nonce field becomes optional for crypto that doesn=E2=80=99t need it and c=
an grow to larger size as needed for bulk transfers to prevent frequent key=
 rollovers (say in datacenter scenarios).<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">You&#39;re not going to find AEADs that don&#39;t re=
quire a nonce. Encryption must not produce the same ciphertext twice for th=
e same plaintext, so you need some input to diversify them. That input is t=
he nonce. Nonces also are not variable-length,
 so you don&#39;t get to arbitrarily grow them. (AES-GCM per spec is variab=
le length, but that&#39;s a spec bug. If you size it above 96 bits, it&#39;=
s as if you randomized it and your nonce space crashes per birthday.)<u></u=
><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It is also harmful to separate the two concerns.=C2=
=A0When you are building a transport, derive the nonce from a sequence numb=
er. TLS 1.2 AES-GCM separated them, which was a mistake. It&#39;s less effi=
cient (the world wasted quite a lot of bandwidth
 due to this), and more error-prone. There was nothing stopping implementat=
ions from sending the same nonce or generating nonces randomly (the AEADs w=
e use don&#39;t have large enough nonces for that), and indeed some did jus=
t that. If you use some sort of sequence
 number, you can lean on existing work both to filter out the obvious imple=
mentation mistakes and to avoid sending unnecessary data.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 12:38 PM Praveen Balasubraman=
ian &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pravb@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank">pravb@micr=
osoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Let me try to summarize the proposal again:<u></u><u=
></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<ol start=3D"1" type=3D"1">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal">
Packet number is in the encrypted portion of the header and is no longer us=
ed as the nonce. It is encoded as a variable length number. Always starts a=
t 0.
<u></u><u></u></li></ol>
<ol start=3D"1" type=3D"1">
<ol start=3D"1" type=3D"a">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal">
No ossification of PN<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
No linkability using PN<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
Allows for growth beyond 64 bits if needed in future<u></u><u></u></li></ol=
>
</ol>
<ol start=3D"2" type=3D"1">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal">
The nonce is in the clear in plaintext header. It is generated <i>per path<=
/i> as a secure random number. Call this the =E2=80=9Cstarting value=E2=80=
=9D. Both sides MUST initialize the =E2=80=9Cstarting value=E2=80=9D nonce
<i>per path</i>. Within a path it grows monotonically (to avoid repeats jus=
t like PN today) and can include short random jumps periodically so that mi=
ddleboxes cannot assume anything about the field. Since nonce has nothing t=
o do with PN the jumps don=E2=80=99t add
 any complexity to transport logic. Jumps are for greasing and preventing o=
ssification. When the nonce rolls over and reaches close to the =E2=80=9Cst=
arting value=E2=80=9D, key rollover must happen. At high data rates the non=
ce field can be 64-bits to prevent frequent key
 rollover. For crypto that doesn=E2=80=99t need nonces, the field can be om=
itted. <u></u><u></u></li></ol>
<ol start=3D"2" type=3D"1">
<ol start=3D"1" type=3D"a">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal">
No ossification because there is no pre-determined sequence to the nonce.<u=
></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
In gQUIC and the RFC as defined the nonce is a simple sequence that increme=
nts by one, so this is no worse off in terms of security. It is non-repeati=
ng.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
No linkability because different paths start at a completely different rand=
om number. If repeating is a concern then different paths use different key=
s. Carries forward to not just connection migration but mutli-path.
<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
Supports key rollover just like gQUIC and currently defined draft RFC.<u></=
u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
Allows for omitting the nonce when we use crypto that doesn=E2=80=99t need =
it.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
Allows for larger nonces for high data rates. <u></u><u></u></li><li class=
=3D"MsoNormal">
It doesn=E2=80=99t preclude any other type of non-repeating nonces without =
having to modify the RFC! So implementations that want to use cryptographic=
 nonces can still do so.
<u></u><u></u></li></ol>
</ol>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The downsides:<u></u><u></u></p>
<ol start=3D"1" type=3D"1">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal">
Even with variable length encoding the extra PN field is more space used pe=
r packet when a nonce is required. I think we can do with 2 bytes in versio=
n 1.<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
It=E2=80=99s not perfect unlinkabiltiy but I have yet to see any solution t=
hat can provide this. A simple time based analysis using machine learning w=
ill allow flow correlation especially for connection migration. The IP addr=
esses in the clear allow for a high degree
 of correlation. There is also the application sending pattern and other si=
gnals that could be used.
<u></u><u></u></li></ol>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Eric Rescorla [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto=
:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 9, 2018 5:52 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Praveen Balasubramanian &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pravb@microsoft.co=
m" target=3D"_blank">pravb@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> huitema &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:huitema@huitema.net" target=3D"_bl=
ank">huitema@huitema.net</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic@ietf.org</a><u></u>=
<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Packet number encryption<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 9:40 PM, Praveen Balasubraman=
ian &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pravb@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank">pravb@micr=
osoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Actually taking a step back what if we don=E2=80=99t=
 we overloaded packet number as the nonce?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Can we:<u></u><u></u></p>
<ol start=3D"1" type=3D"1">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal">
Put packet number as a separate variable length field in the encrypted port=
ion of the header. This allows for growth beyond 64 bits in future and comp=
letely avoids ossification. For short lived flows variable length encoding =
leads to minimal space overhead.
<u></u><u></u></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal">
Put a separate plaintext nonce which starts out as a secure random number a=
nd monotonically increases as short random jumps (every packet or every few=
 packets) and could then rollover. This will prevent linkability and scales=
 to multi-path as well. No major
 compute overhead. We can also make the nonce optional for crypto algorithm=
s that do not need a nonce saving more space.<u></u><u></u></li></ol>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I&#39;m not sure how to do #2 safely and efficiently=
. The primary concern is that short random jumps don&#39;t actually prevent=
 linkability because the high order bits don&#39;t change and
 long random jumps are effectively randomly sampling out of the nonce space=
, and you start to run into birthday problems. Additionally, the cheapest P=
RNGs are basically ciphers in counter mode, so at best you&#39;re going to =
get a small amount of overhead reduction
 by getting multiple jump computations out of a single block, though if you=
 use 96-bit jumps, you only get 25% savings...<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">-Ekr<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0i=
n 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Some MSB of the nonce could be used for signaling re=
order to the network if needed. I don=E2=80=99t have the historical context=
 for overloading of PN as the nonce so pardon me if un-overloading
 option was discussed and ruled out before.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> QUIC [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bou=
nces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Praveen Balasubramanian<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 8, 2018 5:51 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> huitema &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:huitema@huitema.net" target=3D"_bl=
ank">huitema@huitema.net</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Packet number encryption<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&gt;&gt; and using separate packet sequences for eac=
h path<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This alone prevents linkability right?<u></u><u></u>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&gt;&gt; The packet number on each path will start a=
t 1 (or maybe 0 ;-).<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Is supporting multiple paths at the same time a goal=
? If yes, then yes all paths will need to have separate tracking and ACK st=
ate and congestion control etc. I thought this is
 not part of V1 RFC. If its just one additional path for connection migrati=
on scenario then all you need is a (random) jump to a offset in packet numb=
er space for the new path so that the few packets in the old path can conti=
nue for a little bit. This works
 with just one ACK space so no implementation complexity.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&gt;&gt; 2) Or, leaving the packet number in the cle=
ar but using different encryption contexts for each path, and using separat=
e packet sequences for each path.<br>
In addition if the value in the clear was obfuscated with an XOR transform =
it will help prevent ossification. The obfuscation is not meant to guard ag=
ainst later analysis that reveals the packet numbers - why do we care about=
 that. It is meant to grease the
 space and not make the numbers serial so middleboxes cannot assume orderin=
g etc.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">All said if I am alone in being concerned about the =
perf hit then I=E2=80=99d say go on with option 1.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> QUIC [<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bounces@ie=
tf.org" target=3D"_blank">mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Christian Huitema<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, February 8, 2018 3:54 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic@ietf.org=
</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Packet number encryption<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p>On 2/8/2018 1:13 PM, Mike Bishop wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">#2 won=E2=80=99t work.=C2=A0 The packet number is an=
 input to the AEAD nonce, so you have to get to the packet number before yo=
u can decrypt the payload.=C2=A0 It can=E2=80=99t be based on anything inte=
rnal
 to the encrypted packet.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In Martin=E2=80=99s proposal, it=E2=80=99s using a c=
ombination of the encrypted payload (which requires nothing to access) and =
some stored state on each endpoint, which requires only the Connection
 ID to look up.=C2=A0 You want the thing you XOR by to be constantly changi=
ng, or it becomes easier to look at sequences of obfuscated packet numbers =
and start drawing inferences about what the XOR value is.=C2=A0 If overhead=
 is the primary concern, I think there are
 a couple approaches that might allow you to precompute values and amortize=
 the cost of doing the encryption step.=C2=A0 (At the cost of keeping the t=
able of precomputed values, of course.)<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I still think Jana=E2=80=99s pushing in the right di=
rection here:=C2=A0 Let=E2=80=99s agree on goals, and then see if we can cr=
aft a design that meets those goals.=C2=A0 I hear you saying that low overh=
ead
 is a goal, which I think we can all agree on.=C2=A0 I also think I hear yo=
u saying that 1-1.5% overhead is too high, but it sounds like there=E2=80=
=99s less agreement on that.=C2=A0 You also raise an interesting point that=
 some clients will care less about linkability because
 they will never intentionally migrate.<u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
I think Victor said it best, &quot;Obfuscation is just encryption done poor=
ly.&quot; Either we encrypt, or we don&#39;t. But there is no such thing as=
 an obfuscation middle-ground. Obfuscation would just be a speed bump, easi=
ly broken. It won&#39;t provide privacy, and it won&#39;t
 prevent linkability.<br>
<br>
As far as I am concerned, there are only two designs that prevent linkabili=
ty:<br>
<br>
1) Martin&#39;s PR, in which the packet number is encrypted using sensible =
crypto;<br>
<br>
2) Or, leaving the packet number in the clear but using different encryptio=
n contexts for each path, and using separate packet sequences for each path=
.<br>
<br>
The second option requires more computation when explicitly setting up a ne=
w path. The connection ID would be used as part of the &quot;salt&quot; whe=
n deriving connection contexts. The packet number on each path will start a=
t 1 (or maybe 0 ;-). This requires maintaining
 separate SACK dashboards for each path/Connection-ID, and constraining ACK=
 to be per/path, or alternatively adding a PATH-ACK frame that indicates th=
e path for which packets are acked.<br>
<br>
The pros and cons of the two options are easy to get:<br>
<br>
1) Option 2 does not require the cost of encrypting every packet, thus per =
packet processing will be maybe 1% faster than option 1.
<br>
<br>
2) Option 2 requires computing encryption contexts for each path, which is =
more complex than option 1, but the cost will be amortized over the duratio=
n of the path.<br>
<br>
3) Option 2 requires more complex data structures and ACK management, thus =
increasing the chances that something goes wrong.<br>
<br>
4) Option 2 does nothing against packet number ossification. The packet num=
ber effectively becomes part of the invariants.<br>
<br>
In short, the only advantage of option 2 is to avoid a single symmetric enc=
ryption operation per packet, while making the code significantly more comp=
lex, and at the cost of not protecting against PN ossification. The way I s=
ee that, there is hardly any debate.<br>
<br>
-- Christian Huitema<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div></div></div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a113f94f40019ea0564ce909a--


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From: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2018 08:54:14 +1100
Message-ID: <CABkgnnUY-xKBMW3uMQ_wbuOKQ2GxwZ1pDybC5T9ToivcozUDZw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
To: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>
Cc: "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>, Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>,  "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
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On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 5:20 AM, Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com> wrote:
> One issue with the current encryption proposal is you can't use hardware
> crypto offload for the bulk encryption because the packet number has to be
> encrypted after the bulk data.

Why?  Are you expecting the hardware to take the packet and run away
with it?  (I know that happens, but is that really a requirement?)


From nobody Fri Feb  9 13:58:42 2018
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--94eb2c05667a7d4b720564cea185
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 I'm still trying to understand how crypto offload might work for QUIC,

You could start looking at the netmap API. It exposes a vector of fixed
size buffers than can originate directly from the NIC buffer memory. The
same API can also be used to offload work by other CPU cores because you
essentially commit a buffer and leave it for the next stage in a pipeline.

https://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=netmap&sektion=4

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<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq" style=3D"font-family:Helvet=
ica,Arial;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-we=
ight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tra=
nsform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span><div><span style=3D"=
color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:&quot;helvetica Neue&quot;,helvetica;font-size=
:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-=
spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-s=
pace:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;d=
isplay:inline!important"><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span=
>I&#39;m still trying to understand how crypto offload might work for QUIC,=
</span></div></span></blockquote></div><p>You could start looking at the ne=
tmap API. It exposes a vector of fixed size buffers than can originate dire=
ctly from the NIC buffer memory. The same API can also be used to offload w=
ork by other CPU cores because you essentially commit a buffer and leave it=
 for the next stage in a pipeline.</p><p><a href=3D"https://www.freebsd.org=
/cgi/man.cgi?query=3Dnetmap&amp;sektion=3D4">https://www.freebsd.org/cgi/ma=
n.cgi?query=3Dnetmap&amp;sektion=3D4</a></p><div></div></body></html>

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Suggest text if you think it can be made better!

On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 12:24 PM, Patrick McManus <pmcmanus@mozilla.com>
wrote:

> you're right - its ok. I missed the "when a larger" part (reading it as
> "when it is recovered").
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Suggest text if you think it can be made better!</div><div=
 class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 a=
t 12:24 PM, Patrick McManus <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pmcmanu=
s@mozilla.com" target=3D"_blank">pmcmanus@mozilla.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:=
<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-lef=
t:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">you&#39;re right - its =
ok. I missed the &quot;when a larger&quot; part (reading it as &quot;when i=
t is recovered&quot;).<br></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

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From: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2018 09:20:57 +1100
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Subject: Re: The Recovery Period
To: Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>
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Ian already did.  I think that putting that in the draft would be a good idea.

On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 9:03 AM, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com> wrote:
> Suggest text if you think it can be made better!
>
> On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 12:24 PM, Patrick McManus <pmcmanus@mozilla.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> you're right - its ok. I missed the "when a larger" part (reading it as
>> "when it is recovered").
>
>


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From: "Charles 'Buck' Krasic" <ckrasic@google.com>
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 14:22:22 -0800
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Subject: Re: Review of QCRAM
To: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
Cc: Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>, Lucas Pardue <Lucas.Pardue@bbc.co.uk>,  QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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--f403045d914c97c9410564cef757
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On blocked evictions.

a) there's a real possibility that setting table size to 64KB is the most
elegant solution, because evictions may not happen for the vast majority of
connections.
    Perhaps something along these lines is worth mentioning (in section 4?)=
.

b) if not it should be possible to prevent blocked evictions using indexed
duplicates (Section 3.5
<https://krasic.github.io/draft-krasic-quic-hpack/draft-krasic-quic-qcram.h=
tml#rfc.section.3.5>),
I can think of a couple of complementary policies that might be useful:

   1. based on index, duplicate if the encoder emits a reference that is
   (getting close to) the threshold where the HPACK instruction size jumps
   from 1 to 2 bytes.  (I'm feeling too lazy to figure this out precisely, =
but
   I think it is when the HPACK relative index is getting close to 128).  t=
his
   practice also benefits compression ratio independent of evictions.
   2. based on dynamic table fill.  duplicate if the encoder the cumulative
   number of bytes for the referenced entry (the size of the entry and all
   newer entries in the table) is more than some threshold (e.g. 80% of tab=
le
   capacity).

   Neither of the above works if you have an entry that sits in the table
un-referenced until it is time to evict.  My intuition is such a scenario
should not arise in practice.




On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 1:35 PM, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 4:56 AM, Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be> wrote=
:
> > Your observation that you=E2=80=99re keeping a tuple of stream-blocknum=
 on each
> > entry is interesting.  Can you go into more detail where this is?
> Couldn=E2=80=99t
> > you also keep a simple refcount of outstanding blocks, then separately
> track
> > which entries are referenced by outstanding blocks?  IIRC, in QCRAM
> there=E2=80=99s
> > not a situation in which you need to determine which outstanding header
> > block is blocking eviction, only whether an outstanding HEADERS frame
> blocks
> > eviction.  Or am I misunderstanding where you=E2=80=99re keeping the tu=
ple?
>
> So you send out two header blocks on a stream.  One includes
> :status=3D307, the other digest=3Dblah.  When the acks come in, they
> identify the stream.  The first ack needs to ensure that it removes
> any block on :status=3D307, the second digest=3Dblah.  You can't just say
> that ":status=3D307 is blocked from eviction, because you need to know
> when it is no longer blocked, which means tracking where you sent it.
>
> A refcount of outstanding blocks will likely never hit zero, meaning
> you can never evict.
>
> I realize now that I didn't consider stream resets, which my scheme
> doesn't manage well (you need to have a nuke-all-that-partially-match
> option).
>
>


--=20
Charles 'Buck' Krasic | Software Engineer | ckrasic@google.com | +1 (408)
412-1141

--f403045d914c97c9410564cef757
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<div dir=3D"ltr">On blocked evictions.<div><br></div><div>a) there&#39;s a =
real possibility that setting table size to 64KB is the most elegant soluti=
on, because evictions may not happen for the vast majority of connections.<=
/div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Perhaps something along these lines is worth mentio=
ning (in section 4?).</div><div><br></div><div>b) if not it should be possi=
ble to prevent blocked evictions using indexed duplicates (<a href=3D"https=
://krasic.github.io/draft-krasic-quic-hpack/draft-krasic-quic-qcram.html#rf=
c.section.3.5">Section 3.5</a>), I can think of a couple of complementary p=
olicies that might be useful:</div><div><ol><li>based on index, duplicate i=
f the encoder emits a reference that is (getting close to) the threshold wh=
ere the HPACK instruction size jumps from 1 to 2 bytes.=C2=A0 (I&#39;m feel=
ing too lazy to figure this out precisely, but I think it is when the HPACK=
 relative index is getting close to 128).=C2=A0 this practice also benefits=
 compression ratio independent of evictions.</li><li>based on dynamic table=
 fill.=C2=A0 duplicate if the encoder the cumulative number of bytes for th=
e referenced entry (the size of the entry and all newer entries in the tabl=
e) is more than some threshold (e.g. 80% of table capacity).=C2=A0</li></ol=
><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Neither of the above works if you have an entry that sit=
s in the table un-referenced until it is time to evict.=C2=A0 My intuition =
is such a scenario should not arise in practice.</div></div><div><br></div>=
<div><div><br></div><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"g=
mail_quote">On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 1:35 PM, Martin Thomson <span dir=3D"ltr=
">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.thomson@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">martin.=
thomson@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><=
span class=3D"">On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 4:56 AM, Mike Bishop &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:mbishop@evequefou.be">mbishop@evequefou.be</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; Your observation that you=E2=80=99re keeping a tuple of stream-blocknu=
m on each<br>
&gt; entry is interesting.=C2=A0 Can you go into more detail where this is?=
=C2=A0 Couldn=E2=80=99t<br>
&gt; you also keep a simple refcount of outstanding blocks, then separately=
 track<br>
&gt; which entries are referenced by outstanding blocks?=C2=A0 IIRC, in QCR=
AM there=E2=80=99s<br>
&gt; not a situation in which you need to determine which outstanding heade=
r<br>
&gt; block is blocking eviction, only whether an outstanding HEADERS frame =
blocks<br>
&gt; eviction.=C2=A0 Or am I misunderstanding where you=E2=80=99re keeping =
the tuple?<br>
<br>
</span>So you send out two header blocks on a stream.=C2=A0 One includes<br=
>
:status=3D307, the other digest=3Dblah.=C2=A0 When the acks come in, they<b=
r>
identify the stream.=C2=A0 The first ack needs to ensure that it removes<br=
>
any block on :status=3D307, the second digest=3Dblah.=C2=A0 You can&#39;t j=
ust say<br>
that &quot;:status=3D307 is blocked from eviction, because you need to know=
<br>
when it is no longer blocked, which means tracking where you sent it.<br>
<br>
A refcount of outstanding blocks will likely never hit zero, meaning<br>
you can never evict.<br>
<br>
I realize now that I didn&#39;t consider stream resets, which my scheme<br>
doesn&#39;t manage well (you need to have a nuke-all-that-partially-match<b=
r>
option).<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div class=
=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><span style=3D"font=
-family:&#39;Times New Roman&#39;;font-size:medium"><span style=3D"color:rg=
b(85,85,85);font-family:sans-serif;line-height:20px;font-size:small"><span =
style=3D"border-top-width:2px;border-right-width:0px;border-bottom-width:0p=
x;border-left-width:0px;border-top-style:solid;border-right-style:solid;bor=
der-bottom-style:solid;border-left-style:solid;border-top-color:rgb(213,15,=
37);border-right-color:rgb(213,15,37);border-bottom-color:rgb(213,15,37);bo=
rder-left-color:rgb(213,15,37);padding-top:2px;margin-top:2px">Charles &#39=
;Buck&#39; Krasic=C2=A0|</span><span style=3D"border-top-width:2px;border-r=
ight-width:0px;border-bottom-width:0px;border-left-width:0px;border-top-sty=
le:solid;border-right-style:solid;border-bottom-style:solid;border-left-sty=
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);border-bottom-color:rgb(51,105,232);border-left-color:rgb(51,105,232);pad=
ding-top:2px;margin-top:2px">=C2=A0Software Engineer=C2=A0|</span><span sty=
le=3D"border-top-width:2px;border-right-width:0px;border-bottom-width:0px;b=
order-left-width:0px;border-top-style:solid;border-right-style:solid;border=
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eft-color:rgb(0,153,57);padding-top:2px;margin-top:2px">=C2=A0<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:ckrasic@google.com" target=3D"_blank">ckrasic@google.com</a>=C2=A0|</s=
pan><span style=3D"border-top-width:2px;border-right-width:0px;border-botto=
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">=C2=A0<span title=3D"Call with Google Voice">+1 (408) 412-1141</span></sp=
an></span><br><br></span></div>
</div></div></div></div>

--f403045d914c97c9410564cef757--


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From: "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>
To: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>, =?utf-8?B?TWlra2VsIEZhaG7DuGUgSsO4cmdlbnNlbg==?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>, "Victor Vasiliev" <vasilvv@google.com>
CC: Marten Seemann <martenseemann@gmail.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>,  huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
Thread-Topic: Packet number encryption
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Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 23:16:41 +0000
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From: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
To: "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>, =?utf-8?B?TWlra2VsIEZhaG7DuGUgSsO4cmdlbnNlbg==?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>, Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv@google.com>
CC: Marten Seemann <martenseemann@gmail.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>,  huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
Subject: RE: Packet number encryption
Thread-Topic: Packet number encryption
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From: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
To: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>, huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
CC: "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: hardware offload (was: Packet number encryption)
Thread-Topic: hardware offload (was: Packet number encryption)
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Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 23:35:29 +0000
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From: "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>
To: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
CC: "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
Thread-Topic: Packet number encryption
Thread-Index: AQHTmW31Be9MxlVQxEqrVhXIOG6b4KOM1RYAgABeoICAAAgVAIAAd3KAgAA8YgCAACPDAIAAAicAgAOBloCAALfcgIAACBoAgAEGFwCAANx+AIAAn5GAgAB7xICAADUigIAADBaAgADXOgCAAGaugIAAEEkAgACizACAADhiAIAAHkiAgAADUYCAACdEAIAAVRYAgAAUZgCAAA5oAIAAEIEAgABFkgCAAAUSgIAABUkAgAABmYCAAAaRgIAAC4qAgACi8ACAAe5ygIAACzgAgAAgsACAAEARAIAAiWKAgAA/NwD//61lgIAAbFsA///2toA=
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Subject: RE: Packet number encryption
To: David Benjamin <davidben@chromium.org>, "Deval, Manasi" <manasi.deval@intel.com>,  Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
Cc: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>
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--94eb2c05667a11a1470564d0465e
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On 9 February 2018 at 22.18.18, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen (mikkelfj=
@gmail.com)
wrote:

If we enumerate each half-path with a path ID PID as a simpler counter
starting at zero, we have a 1-1 mapping from PID to CID. The packet number
PN is then encoded as <PID * 2^32 + nonce counter>. The PN is used
explicitly and implicitly in ACK frames but is never carried directly on
the wire.

Using a segment packet number space can also be used to deal with
optimistic ACK attacks:

Each path is given two connection ID=E2=80=99s which may very just at the l=
ower
bit. Rather than randomly skipping some packet numbers, a few packets could
be sent on the alternative CID. This will introduce gaps but each nonce
range remains gapless which keeps the ACK frame defragmented and avoids
false loss signals. It does required that CID is present on the wire, but
if it is not, a single header bit could be used to imply which of packet
number segments is in use. On its own this is not a very attractive ack
attack solution, but it may be relevant if packet numbers are segmented,
and especially with a v2 multi-path solution.

--94eb2c05667a11a1470564d0465e
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<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">On 9 February 2018 a=
t 22.18.18, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen (<a href=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@g=
mail.com">mikkelfj@gmail.com</a>) wrote:</div> <div><blockquote type=3D"cit=
e" class=3D"clean_bq" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;f=
ont-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing=
:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:no=
rmal;word-spacing:0px"><span><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-fami=
ly:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:norma=
l;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px=
;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:r=
gb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline!important">If we enumerate each h=
alf-path with a path ID PID as a simpler counter starting at zero, we have =
a 1-1 mapping from PID to CID. The packet number PN is then encoded as &lt;=
PID * 2^32 + nonce counter&gt;. The PN is used explicitly and implicitly in=
 ACK frames but is never carried directly on the wire.</span></div></span><=
/blockquote></div><p>Using a segment packet number space can also be used t=
o deal with optimistic ACK attacks:</p><p>Each path is given two connection=
 ID=E2=80=99s which may very just at the lower bit. Rather than randomly sk=
ipping some packet numbers, a few packets could be sent on the alternative =
CID. This will introduce gaps but each nonce range remains gapless which ke=
eps the ACK frame defragmented and avoids false loss signals. It does requi=
red that CID is present on the wire, but if it is not, a single header bit =
could be used to imply which of packet number segments is in use. On its ow=
n this is not a very attractive ack attack solution, but it may be relevant=
 if packet numbers are segmented, and especially with a v2 multi-path solut=
ion.</p><div></div></body></html>

--94eb2c05667a11a1470564d0465e--


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From: Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv@google.com>
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 20:01:37 -0500
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Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
To: =?UTF-8?Q?Mikkel_Fahn=C3=B8e_J=C3=B8rgensen?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>
Cc: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, huitema <huitema@huitema.net>,  Marten Seemann <martenseemann@gmail.com>
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--001a1147ed36e327ac0564d12ff0
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Large download case is the case in which the percent of time spent on
symmetric crypto is the greatest.  As your packets become smaller,
non-cryptographic overheads of sending a packet become bigger.

On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 4:27 PM, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen <mikkelfj=
@gmail.com>
wrote:

> I am very confused about the 1.25% number.  1280 bytes is about 80 AES
> blocks, and one extra block is 1.25% on top of total *encryption* costs
> (you don't have to MAC the PN, so that's even cheaper).  And the encrypti=
on
> itself is fairly cheap compared to almost any other part of the QUIC stac=
k
> (sent packet tracking, ack processing, I/O, timers, etc).
>
> This is for the large file upload case. It does not consider low latency
> applications with small messages and separate cores for different
> responsibilities. It also does not consider that that a single block cost=
s
> the same as 4 blocks on Intel, nor does it consider that the packet canno=
t
> be decoded in-place. But yes, in the common large file download case, the
> cost is not very significant. But it can be significant enough to choose
> another protocol in other scenarios. So there needs to be a really good
> reason to add this extra latency step. Linkability might be an argument,
> and ossification might be too, and the complexity of alternatives might a=
s
> well. However, I=E2=80=99m not convinced. I=E2=80=99m also not completely=
 dismissing it,
> but I would like to see alternatives explored more thoroughly before
> throwing in a cost for no good reason.
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Large download case is the case in which the percent of ti=
me spent on symmetric crypto is the greatest.=C2=A0 As your packets become =
smaller, non-cryptographic overheads of sending a packet become bigger.<br>=
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Feb 9, 20=
18 at 4:27 PM, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mikkelfj@gmail.com</a>&=
gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 =
0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap=
:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><span class=3D""><div><blockquote=
 type=3D"cite" class=3D"m_-350714649695081885clean_bq" style=3D"font-family=
:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;=
font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;t=
ext-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span><div><div><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div>I =
am very confused about the 1.25% number.=C2=A0 1280 bytes is about 80 AES b=
locks, and one extra block is 1.25% on top of total *encryption* costs (you=
 don&#39;t have to MAC the PN, so that&#39;s even cheaper).=C2=A0 And the e=
ncryption itself is fairly cheap compared to almost any other part of the Q=
UIC stack (sent packet tracking, ack processing, I/O, timers, etc).</div></=
div></div></div></div></div></span></blockquote></div></span><p>This is for=
 the large file upload case. It does not consider low latency applications =
with small messages and separate cores for different responsibilities. It a=
lso does not consider that that a single block costs the same as 4 blocks o=
n Intel, nor does it consider that the packet cannot be decoded in-place. B=
ut yes, in the common large file download case, the cost is not very signif=
icant. But it can be significant enough to choose another protocol in other=
 scenarios. So there needs to be a really good reason to add this extra lat=
ency step. Linkability might be an argument, and ossification might be too,=
 and the complexity of alternatives might as well. However, I=E2=80=99m not=
 convinced. I=E2=80=99m also not completely dismissing it, but I would like=
 to see alternatives explored more thoroughly before throwing in a cost for=
 no good reason.</p><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"m_-350714649695=
081885clean_bq" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;font-st=
yle:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:norma=
l;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;w=
ord-spacing:0px"><span><div><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra=
"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"></div></div></div></div></div></span></blockqu=
ote></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

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Subject: Re: Questions about Version Negotiation Concerning Possible Handshake Interruption
To: =?UTF-8?Q?Mikkel_Fahn=c3=b8e_J=c3=b8rgensen?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>, Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>
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From: Lingmo Zhu <zlm2006@gmail.com>
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IMHO we can see that such interference is pretty easy to be used and it 
could leading to aborted QUIC connection and probably a fallback to any 
old approach for higher level protocol. Even virus targeting home 
routers could do that, without gov involved. For what outcome, I think 
it's pretty simple: forcing higher level protocol fallback to other 
transport protocol. Since QUIC has been designed much more secure than 
older protocols, it could be hard to do some eavesdropping or hijacking. 
But if fallback happens, it would be another story. Considering DNS over 
QUIC, a virus-infected home router could interfere with QUIC handshake 
cause fallback to TLS, then RST may cause fallback to clear text, which 
is easy to be hijacked and leads client to some phishing site.


On 2018/02/09 19:56, Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen wrote:
> A realistic on-path attack involves a government body that taps optic 
> fiber at an internet distribution node. The original intention behind 
> the construct may be to trigger an alarm whenever the string “dirty 
> bomb” appears in a protocol RFC 821 message (such as this one), and 
> subsequently for logging purposes to monitor traffic directed towards 
> bulk fertiliser suppliers. It is not possible to drop packets both due 
> to the mechanical construct, due to legislation, and because it might 
> be too obvious. However, having a datacenter with optic fibre near 
> said access point gives excellent insights into early handshakes 
> including IP, port, connection ID, and possible even a profile of the 
> PRNG being used at some endpoint.
>
> This makes it very simple to spoof and inject packets into handshake 
> with a good chance of winning any race. More difficult, but possible, 
> it could also observe packets and inject packets closer to the 
> endpoint, for example using long distance point to point radio 
> communication to race the ordinary packet stream.
>
> Any argument about friendly gov is void because the internet travels 
> across multiple regions that each with near certainty have taps as 
> those described above making it a prime target in cyber warfare.
>
> The question is then to what extend such a position can be utilised to 
> interfere with the handshake and what the outcome of such interference 
> would be, rather than a discussion of how plausible such an attack is, 
> because it is probably a 99% given if feasible.


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<html>
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    <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
  </head>
  <body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
    <p>IMHO we can see that such interference is pretty easy to be used
      and it could leading to aborted QUIC connection and probably a
      fallback to any old approach for higher level protocol. Even virus
      targeting home routers could do that, without gov involved. For
      what outcome, I think it's pretty simple: forcing higher level
      protocol fallback to other transport protocol. Since QUIC has been
      designed much more secure than older protocols, it could be hard
      to do some eavesdropping or hijacking. But if fallback happens, it
      would be another story. Considering DNS over QUIC, a
      virus-infected home router could interfere with QUIC handshake
      cause fallback to TLS, then RST may cause fallback to clear text,
      which is easy to be hijacked and leads client to some phishing
      site.<br>
    </p>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2018/02/09 19:56, Mikkel Fahnøe
      Jørgensen wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAN1APdfov8Q3E+5NkT5pmMeU=eB=fsnDFe_=BK7TDE0TpXD3yA@mail.gmail.com">
      <style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>A
      realistic on-path attack involves a government body that taps
      optic fiber at an internet distribution node. The original
      intention behind the construct may be to trigger an alarm whenever
      the string “dirty bomb” appears in a protocol RFC 821 message
      (such as this one), and subsequently for logging purposes to
      monitor traffic directed towards bulk fertiliser suppliers. It is
      not possible to drop packets both due to the mechanical construct,
      due to legislation, and because it might be too obvious. However,
      having a datacenter with optic fibre near said access point gives
      excellent insights into early handshakes including IP, port,
      connection ID, and possible even a profile of the PRNG being used
      at some endpoint.
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>This makes it very simple to spoof and inject packets into
        handshake with a good chance of winning any race. More
        difficult, but possible, it could also observe packets and
        inject packets closer to the endpoint, for example using long
        distance point to point radio communication to race the ordinary
        packet stream.</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>Any argument about friendly gov is void because the internet
        travels across multiple regions that each with near certainty
        have taps as those described above making it a prime target in
        cyber warfare.</div>
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>The question is then to what extend such a position can be
        utilised to interfere with the handshake and what the outcome of
        such interference would be, rather than a discussion of how
        plausible such an attack is, because it is probably a 99% given
        if feasible.</div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------C161A067F8A746B5DFD645AE--


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From: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
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Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2018 10:17:52 -1000
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Subject: Re: hardware offload (was: Packet number encryption)
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On 2/9/2018 8:20 AM, Ian Swett wrote:

> One issue with the current encryption proposal is you can't use
> hardware crypto offload for the bulk encryption because the packet
> number has to be encrypted after the bulk data.
>
> Any suggestions on how to fix that?

Ian, could you be a bit more explicit about the type of hardware offload
that you have in mind?

I can think of two extreme types. One is embedding crypto offload in the
NIC, and is generally tied to TCP/TLS/TLO. That one type has no hope
whatsoever of working with UDP/QUIC. The other type is simply providing
an "encrypt this byte string" API, and can be trivially used with QUIC
-- much like we can use Intel's AES extended instructions today. So
obviously you have something else in mind, and maybe you should explain i=
t.

-- Christian Huitema




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From: =?Windows-1252?Q?Mikkel_Fahn=F8e_J=F8rgensen?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>
To: Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv@google.com>
CC: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, Marten Seemann <martenseemann@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
Thread-Topic: Packet number encryption
Thread-Index: AdOiC23yPjuHQYOq5U2Xo3VH04y7gAAIyLPn
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98ns for 68 byte messages

https://www.solarflare.com/solarflare-lda-penguin-unleash-ultimate-trading-=
machine-stac-t0-benchmark

________________________________
From: Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv@google.com>
Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2018 2:01:37 AM
To: Mikkel Fahn=F8e J=F8rgensen
Cc: Praveen Balasubramanian; quic@ietf.org; huitema; Marten Seemann
Subject: Re: Packet number encryption

Large download case is the case in which the percent of time spent on symme=
tric crypto is the greatest.  As your packets become smaller, non-cryptogra=
phic overheads of sending a packet become bigger.

On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 4:27 PM, Mikkel Fahn=F8e J=F8rgensen <mikkelfj@gmail=
.com<mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com>> wrote:
I am very confused about the 1.25% number.  1280 bytes is about 80 AES bloc=
ks, and one extra block is 1.25% on top of total *encryption* costs (you do=
n't have to MAC the PN, so that's even cheaper).  And the encryption itself=
 is fairly cheap compared to almost any other part of the QUIC stack (sent =
packet tracking, ack processing, I/O, timers, etc).

This is for the large file upload case. It does not consider low latency ap=
plications with small messages and separate cores for different responsibil=
ities. It also does not consider that that a single block costs the same as=
 4 blocks on Intel, nor does it consider that the packet cannot be decoded =
in-place. But yes, in the common large file download case, the cost is not =
very significant. But it can be significant enough to choose another protoc=
ol in other scenarios. So there needs to be a really good reason to add thi=
s extra latency step. Linkability might be an argument, and ossification mi=
ght be too, and the complexity of alternatives might as well. However, I=92=
m not convinced. I=92m also not completely dismissing it, but I would like =
to see alternatives explored more thoroughly before throwing in a cost for =
no good reason.


--_000_DB6PR10MB176692436653B08C1CA949C2ACF10DB6PR10MB1766EURP_
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<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-1=
252">
<meta content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8">
</head>
<body>
<div id=3D"compose-container" itemscope=3D"" itemtype=3D"https://schema.org=
/EmailMessage" style=3D"direction:ltr">
<span itemprop=3D"creator" itemscope=3D"" itemtype=3D"https://schema.org/Or=
ganization"><span itemprop=3D"name"></span></span>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"direction:ltr">98ns for 68 byte messages </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"direction:ltr">https://www.solarflare.com/solarflare-lda-peng=
uin-unleash-ultimate-trading-machine-stac-t0-benchmark</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div class=3D"acompli_signature"></div>
</div>
</div>
<hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" co=
lor=3D"#000000" style=3D"font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> Victor Vasiliev &lt;v=
asilvv@google.com&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, February 10, 2018 2:01:37 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mikkel Fahn=F8e J=F8rgensen<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Praveen Balasubramanian; quic@ietf.org; huitema; Marten Seemann<=
br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Packet number encryption</font>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Large download case is the case in which the percent of ti=
me spent on symmetric crypto is the greatest.&nbsp; As your packets become =
smaller, non-cryptographic overheads of sending a packet become bigger.<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 4:27 PM, Mikkel Fahn=F8e =
J=F8rgensen <span dir=3D"ltr">
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mikkelfj@gmail.=
com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex; border-left:1=
px #ccc solid; padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word; line-break:after-white-space"><span cla=
ss=3D"">
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"m_-350714649695081885clean_bq" style=3D"=
font-family:Helvetica,Arial; font-size:13px; font-style:normal; font-weight=
:normal; letter-spacing:normal; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-tra=
nsform:none; white-space:normal; word-spacing:0px">
<span>
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_extra">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div>I am very confused about the 1.25% number.&nbsp; 1280 bytes is about 8=
0 AES blocks, and one extra block is 1.25% on top of total *encryption* cos=
ts (you don't have to MAC the PN, so that's even cheaper).&nbsp; And the en=
cryption itself is fairly cheap compared to
 almost any other part of the QUIC stack (sent packet tracking, ack process=
ing, I/O, timers, etc).</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span></blockquote>
</div>
</span>
<p>This is for the large file upload case. It does not consider low latency=
 applications with small messages and separate cores for different responsi=
bilities. It also does not consider that that a single block costs the same=
 as 4 blocks on Intel, nor does
 it consider that the packet cannot be decoded in-place. But yes, in the co=
mmon large file download case, the cost is not very significant. But it can=
 be significant enough to choose another protocol in other scenarios. So th=
ere needs to be a really good reason
 to add this extra latency step. Linkability might be an argument, and ossi=
fication might be too, and the complexity of alternatives might as well. Ho=
wever, I=92m not convinced. I=92m also not completely dismissing it, but I =
would like to see alternatives explored
 more thoroughly before throwing in a cost for no good reason.</p>
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"m_-350714649695081885clean_bq" style=3D"=
font-family:Helvetica,Arial; font-size:13px; font-style:normal; font-weight=
:normal; letter-spacing:normal; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-tra=
nsform:none; white-space:normal; word-spacing:0px">
<span>
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div class=3D"gmail_extra">
<div class=3D"gmail_quote"></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</span></blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_DB6PR10MB176692436653B08C1CA949C2ACF10DB6PR10MB1766EURP_--


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On 2/9/2018 3:06 PM, Lingmo Zhu wrote:
>
> IMHO we can see that such interference is pretty easy to be used and
> it could leading to aborted QUIC connection and probably a fallback to
> any old approach for higher level protocol. Even virus targeting home
> routers could do that, without gov involved. For what outcome, I think
> it's pretty simple: forcing higher level protocol fallback to other
> transport protocol. Since QUIC has been designed much more secure than
> older protocols, it could be hard to do some eavesdropping or
> hijacking. But if fallback happens, it would be another story.
> Considering DNS over QUIC, a virus-infected home router could
> interfere with QUIC handshake cause fallback to TLS, then RST may
> cause fallback to clear text, which is easy to be hijacked and leads
> client to some phishing site.
>

In theory, it should be possible to protect against "man on the side"
attacks. Do some kind of speculative execution on the first packet that
you receive, but also keep the context available for some time in case a
"better" packet comes later. With that approach, the attacker could not
just inject a "packet of death"; they will also need to suppress the
correct response from the actual server. That's an interesting idea.
Have you tried some experiments?

-- Christian Huitema


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Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2018 09:34:45 +0100
From: <alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com>
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To: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
CC: Lingmo Zhu <zlm2006@gmail.com>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Mikkel_Fahn=F8e_J=F8?= =?ISO-8859-1?Q?rgensen?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>, Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Questions about Version Negotiation Concerning Possible Handshake Interruption
References: <1d386744-c46a-842a-b172-24e290e03668@gmail.com> <CABkgnnVRn+1sNZQFB8BZc4VyzN5usLmYJ3xLo+p2uTeW_0Ji_Q@mail.gmail.com> <CAN1APdfpJ0rYPPiOgfcdDRx3noh+YYvJatP0MYTqRRXMBwF6pA@mail.gmail.com> <3d558827-f2a7-877c-e00a-d6a22ef241c5@gmail.com> <CANatvzzZEuJ3TY=+0BMLqbBE5mScG_Jnrypg3xkciykOX78G8A@mail.gmail.com> <CAN1APdfov8Q3E+5NkT5pmMeU=eB=fsnDFe_=BK7TDE0TpXD3yA@mail.gmail.com> <142211e0-c7c9-642f-69ef-5f0d722b77cc@gmail.com> <529ac475-5291-2b2e-acf9-05efe720d584@huitema.net>
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On 10/02/2018 07:24, Christian Huitema wrote:
>
>
> On 2/9/2018 3:06 PM, Lingmo Zhu wrote:
>>
>>  IMHO we can see that such interference is pretty easy to be used and
>>  it could leading to aborted QUIC connection and probably a fallback to
>>  any old approach for higher level protocol. Even virus targeting home
>>  routers could do that, without gov involved. For what outcome, I think
>>  it's pretty simple: forcing higher level protocol fallback to other
>>  transport protocol. Since QUIC has been designed much more secure than
>>  older protocols, it could be hard to do some eavesdropping or
>>  hijacking. But if fallback happens, it would be another story.
>>  Considering DNS over QUIC, a virus-infected home router could
>>  interfere with QUIC handshake cause fallback to TLS, then RST may
>>  cause fallback to clear text, which is easy to be hijacked and leads
>>  client to some phishing site.
>>
>
> In theory, it should be possible to protect against "man on the side"
> attacks. Do some kind of speculative execution on the first packet that
> you receive, but also keep the context available for some time in case a
> "better" packet comes later. With that approach, the attacker could not
> just inject a "packet of death"; they will also need to suppress the
> correct response from the actual server. That's an interesting idea.
> Have you tried some experiments?

Alternatively, what about a "no fallback" mode for sensitive applications like DNS ?

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From: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2018 19:48:48 +1100
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Subject: Re: Review of QCRAM
To: "Charles 'Buck' Krasic" <ckrasic@google.com>
Cc: Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>, Lucas Pardue <Lucas.Pardue@bbc.co.uk>,  QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 9:22 AM, Charles 'Buck' Krasic
<ckrasic@google.com> wrote:
> On blocked evictions.
>
> a) there's a real possibility that setting table size to 64KB is the most
> elegant solution, because evictions may not happen for the vast majority of
> connections.
>     Perhaps something along these lines is worth mentioning (in section 4?).

Setting a higher limit just delays things (or makes them much more
unlikely).  It's not a real solution, unless you think that throwing
away the connection or suffering compression degradation is preferable
to using duplication.


> b) if not it should be possible to prevent blocked evictions using indexed
> duplicates (Section 3.5), I can think of a couple of complementary policies
> that might be useful:
>
> based on index, duplicate if the encoder emits a reference that is (getting
> close to) the threshold where the HPACK instruction size jumps from 1 to 2
> bytes.  (I'm feeling too lazy to figure this out precisely, but I think it
> is when the HPACK relative index is getting close to 128).  this practice
> also benefits compression ratio independent of evictions.
> based on dynamic table fill.  duplicate if the encoder the cumulative number
> of bytes for the referenced entry (the size of the entry and all newer
> entries in the table) is more than some threshold (e.g. 80% of table
> capacity).

I have implemented the latter, and though I don't have a lot of tests
to confirm it, it seems to work.  The threshold is tunable (I covered
this point in the OP).

>    Neither of the above works if you have an entry that sits in the table
> un-referenced until it is time to evict.  My intuition is such a scenario
> should not arise in practice.

Not sure why you would be concerned about this.  That would only
happen if you speculatively added things to the table.  Possible, but
probably not that useful.  Nor is this really a problem aside from the
opportunity cost, which could be zero anyway.


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From: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2018 19:56:42 +1100
Message-ID: <CABkgnnU5vA6Ypb9MnvQKDuvZvW1hTWt87_tH2uGSwGR48AaeaA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Questions about Version Negotiation Concerning Possible Handshake Interruption
To: alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com
Cc: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, Lingmo Zhu <zlm2006@gmail.com>,  =?UTF-8?Q?Mikkel_Fahn=C3=B8e_J=C3=B8rgensen?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>,  Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>
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On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 7:34 PM,  <alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com> wrote:
> Alternatively, what about a "no fallback" mode for sensitive applications
> like DNS ?

If versioning were strictly linear, you could do as we do for TLS and
remember that server X supported version Y and ignore any version
negotiation from X that claimed to support only Y-1.  That's not
necessarily an ideal outcome, but you can do that.


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From: Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2018 18:00:07 +0900
Message-ID: <CANatvzz_2BeRns5E-OO=CKKwK66LgMd=3vVCM84_+OAxj8CutQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Questions about Version Negotiation Concerning Possible Handshake Interruption
To: alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com
Cc: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, Lingmo Zhu <zlm2006@gmail.com>,  =?UTF-8?Q?Mikkel_Fahn=C3=B8e_J=C3=B8rgensen?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>,  "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
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2018-02-10 17:34 GMT+09:00  <alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com>:
> On 10/02/2018 07:24, Christian Huitema wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On 2/9/2018 3:06 PM, Lingmo Zhu wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>  IMHO we can see that such interference is pretty easy to be used and
>>>  it could leading to aborted QUIC connection and probably a fallback to
>>>  any old approach for higher level protocol. Even virus targeting home
>>>  routers could do that, without gov involved. For what outcome, I think
>>>  it's pretty simple: forcing higher level protocol fallback to other
>>>  transport protocol. Since QUIC has been designed much more secure than
>>>  older protocols, it could be hard to do some eavesdropping or
>>>  hijacking. But if fallback happens, it would be another story.
>>>  Considering DNS over QUIC, a virus-infected home router could
>>>  interfere with QUIC handshake cause fallback to TLS, then RST may
>>>  cause fallback to clear text, which is easy to be hijacked and leads
>>>  client to some phishing site.
>>>
>>
>> In theory, it should be possible to protect against "man on the side"
>> attacks. Do some kind of speculative execution on the first packet that
>> you receive, but also keep the context available for some time in case a
>> "better" packet comes later. With that approach, the attacker could not
>> just inject a "packet of death"; they will also need to suppress the
>> correct response from the actual server. That's an interesting idea.
>> Have you tried some experiments?
>
>
> Alternatively, what about a "no fallback" mode for sensitive applications
> like DNS ?

I agree that providing such an option would narrow the attack window.
The other option is to let the client propose multiple versions and
the server select one, as proposed in my previous mail.

But even if we do that, there's still the chance of an attacker
injecting a Handshake packet that contains a corrupt ServerHello
message. In such case, the client would fail to complete the handshake
with the server.

To evade such attacks, a client is required to create a backup of its
TLS context before handling the Handshake packet that might have been
sent from an attacker, so that it could restore the context one the
TLS handshake ends up in an error.

However, I am not sure if any of the TLS stacks provide such a feature
(personally I would be interested in adding one in picotls, though).


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> Thank you.
>



-- 
Kazuho Oku


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Subject: Re: Questions about Version Negotiation Concerning Possible Handshake Interruption
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On 10/02/2018 10:00, Kazuho Oku wrote:
>> >  Alternatively, what about a "no fallback" mode for sensitive applications
>> >  like DNS ?
 >
> I agree that providing such an option would narrow the attack window.
> The other option is to let the client propose multiple versions and
> the server select one, as proposed in my previous mail.
>
> But even if we do that, there's still the chance of an attacker
> injecting a Handshake packet that contains a corrupt ServerHello
> message. In such case, the client would fail to complete the handshake
> with the server.

Yes, but this weakens the threat from outright intrusion to mere DOS, right ?

If so, note that the attacker may always follow its packet-of-death with a 
flood, making the receiver-side UDP socket overflow and eventually drop the 
legitimate server's response. In this case, not even a TLS context backup will 
be able to recover. Agreed, that's a heavier sword for a thicker shield, but 
that's doable ;)

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

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If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and delete this message and its attachments.
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Subject: Re: Questions about Version Negotiation Concerning Possible Handshake Interruption
To: Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>, alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Mikkel_Fahn=c3=b8e_J=c3=b8rgensen?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
References: <1d386744-c46a-842a-b172-24e290e03668@gmail.com> <CABkgnnVRn+1sNZQFB8BZc4VyzN5usLmYJ3xLo+p2uTeW_0Ji_Q@mail.gmail.com> <CAN1APdfpJ0rYPPiOgfcdDRx3noh+YYvJatP0MYTqRRXMBwF6pA@mail.gmail.com> <3d558827-f2a7-877c-e00a-d6a22ef241c5@gmail.com> <CANatvzzZEuJ3TY=+0BMLqbBE5mScG_Jnrypg3xkciykOX78G8A@mail.gmail.com> <CAN1APdfov8Q3E+5NkT5pmMeU=eB=fsnDFe_=BK7TDE0TpXD3yA@mail.gmail.com> <142211e0-c7c9-642f-69ef-5f0d722b77cc@gmail.com> <529ac475-5291-2b2e-acf9-05efe720d584@huitema.net> <6937_1518251684_5A7EAEA4_6937_191_1_5A7EAEA5.2000605@orange.com> <CANatvzz_2BeRns5E-OO=CKKwK66LgMd=3vVCM84_+OAxj8CutQ@mail.gmail.com>
From: Lingmo Zhu <zlm2006@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d3c8688a-3f01-30b1-a3de-1300a43c1d99@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2018 18:30:22 +0800
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On 10/02/2018 07:24, Christian Huitema wrote:
 >
 > In theory, it should be possible to protect against "man on the side"
 > attacks. Do some kind of speculative execution on the first packet that
 > you receive, but also keep the context available for some time in case a
 > "better" packet comes later. With that approach, the attacker could not
 > just inject a "packet of death"; they will also need to suppress the
 > correct response from the actual server. That's an interesting idea.
 > Have you tried some experiments?

No experiments yet but I'd love to. Though my current work is not so
related to this field so maybe I'm not professional enough.


On 2018/02/10 17:00, Kazuho Oku wrote:
> 2018-02-10 17:34 GMT+09:00  <alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com>:
>> On 10/02/2018 07:24, Christian Huitema wrote:
>>>
>>> In theory, it should be possible to protect against "man on the side"
>>> attacks. Do some kind of speculative execution on the first packet that
>>> you receive, but also keep the context available for some time in case a
>>> "better" packet comes later. With that approach, the attacker could not
>>> just inject a "packet of death"; they will also need to suppress the
>>> correct response from the actual server. That's an interesting idea.
>>> Have you tried some experiments?
>>
>>
>> Alternatively, what about a "no fallback" mode for sensitive applications
>> like DNS ?
> 
> I agree that providing such an option would narrow the attack window.
> The other option is to let the client propose multiple versions and
> the server select one, as proposed in my previous mail.
> 
> But even if we do that, there's still the chance of an attacker
> injecting a Handshake packet that contains a corrupt ServerHello
> message. In such case, the client would fail to complete the handshake
> with the server.
> 
> To evade such attacks, a client is required to create a backup of its
> TLS context before handling the Handshake packet that might have been
> sent from an attacker, so that it could restore the context one the
> TLS handshake ends up in an error.
> 
> However, I am not sure if any of the TLS stacks provide such a feature
> (personally I would be interested in adding one in picotls, though).
> 
> 

IMHO even though we want no fallback for service like DNS, in reality
that could not be possible for several years due to deploying progress
and its critical position (if no fallback, no name resolving would be
available if QUIC & TLS connection failed if my understanding is
correct).

To be cleared, spoofing clear text VERSION NEGOTIATION packet is cheap
from my POV so it could be misused easily. I'm not sure but injecting
corrupt ServerHello message could be sort of expensive thanks to
encryption so I didn't consider that far. So if we still decide to use
current version negotiation mechanism, considering only the attack
approach using VERSION NEGOTIATION and we hold different contexts for
a short period, there would be several cases:

* fake VERSION NEGOTIATION with no acceptable versions was sent to the
   client but the server could accept the QUIC version INITIAL packet
   used, it could be mitigated by simply wait for a short period. Retry
   might be applied considering packet lost.
* sever actually could not accept any version that the client supported,
   client would abort the QUIC connection after several retries and that
   should be expected.
* fake VERSION NEGOTIATION with no acceptable versions was sent to the
   client and the server also rejected the QUIC version with a VERSION
   NEGOTIATION with acceptable versions, client could try an acceptable
   version and process the handshake.
* fake VERSION NEGOTIATION with acceptable versions was sent to the
   client and the server could accept the QUIC version INITIAL packet
   used, things could be tricky. At least two contexts should be hold
   by the client. If the new version selected by client is not acceptable
   to server, that could be a better scenario since the original context
   would simply become the finally negotiated one. But if the new version
   is also acceptable by server, I'm not sure what would happen.
* fake VERSION NEGOTIATION with acceptable versions was sent to the
   client but the server rejected the QUIC version with a VERSION
   NEGOTIATION with acceptable versions, things would be really complex.
   But the downgrade attack mentioned by Mikkel should be tolerant by
   current verifying mechanism. I'm not sure if we should consider this
   case.

So as a summary, holding original context for a short period should be
enough for mitigating the interruption caused by VERSION NEGOTIATION
according to the first three cases. But for the remaining misuse cases,
it might need further consideration if they should.

Lingmo Zhu

>> _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
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>>
> 
> 
> 


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Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
To: Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv@google.com>
Cc: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>,  Marten Seemann <martenseemann@gmail.com>, huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
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To put numbers into perspective using Intel 2015 data

https://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/improving-openssl-performance#_To=
c416943490

A 64 byte message in AES-GCM AEAD in HW would use 1.03 cycles per byte or
66 cycles total, or 22ns on a 3GHz core.

For packet numbers we use the CBC encrypt numbers because here AES cannot
exploit block parallelism.
Here we see 4.44 cycles/byte in HW or 71 cycles per block. With a 3GHz
setup that would amount to about 24ns overhead for packet encryption.

Clearly it makes no sense that AES-GCM is faster than a single AES block
encryption, but these are only approximate numbers and CBC mode might have
a little overhead, so we clamp packet numbers to 22ns.

Taking the 98ns overhead by the Solarflare report we get a total
(simplified) processing time is 98ns non-crypto, 22ns for packet number,
and 22ns for AEAD totalling 142ns. So the packet number encryption overhead
would be 22/(98+22)*100% =3D 18%. The numbers ignore other QUIC bookkeeping=
,
but that can be done in other cores or outside the latency critical window.

This does not take into account that AEAD operation may operate less than
optimal because the packet number must be extracted first. On the other
hand, it is also not a disastrous overhead if no good alternative can be
found.

Earlier AES-NI I=E2=80=99ve seen from Intel doc suggests around 100cycles i=
n HW for
a single AES-128 block which would be 33ns per packet number in the above
example.

On 10 February 2018 at 06.18.25, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen (mikkelf=
j@gmail.com)
wrote:

98ns for 68 byte messages

--001a1144b828c4b7580564da0ba7
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">To put numbers into =
perspective using Intel 2015 data</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin=
:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font=
-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;lin=
e-height:auto"><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"margin:0px"><a href=3D=
"https://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/improving-openssl-performance#_T=
oc416943490">https://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/improving-openssl-pe=
rformance#_Toc416943490</a></div><div><br></div><div>A 64 byte message in A=
ES-GCM AEAD in HW would use 1.03 cycles per byte or 66 cycles total, or 22n=
s on a 3GHz core.</div></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-fam=
ily:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-he=
ight:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helv=
etica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:aut=
o"><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"margin:0px">For packet numbers we =
use the CBC encrypt numbers because here AES cannot exploit block paralleli=
sm.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"margin:0px">Here we see 4.44=
 cycles/byte in HW or 71 cycles per block. With a 3GHz setup that would amo=
unt to about 24ns overhead for packet encryption.</div><div id=3D"bloop_cus=
tomfont" style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);m=
argin:0px;line-height:auto">Clearly it makes no sense that AES-GCM is faste=
r than a single AES block encryption, but these are only approximate number=
s and CBC mode might have a little overhead, so we clamp packet numbers to =
22ns.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Aria=
l;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></d=
iv><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-s=
ize:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">Taking the 98ns=
 overhead by the Solarflare report we get a total (simplified) processing t=
ime is 98ns non-crypto, 22ns for packet number, and 22ns for AEAD totalling=
 142ns. So the packet number encryption overhead would be 22/(98+22)*100% =
=3D 18%. The numbers ignore other QUIC bookkeeping, but that can be done in=
 other cores or outside the latency critical window.</div><div id=3D"bloop_=
customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(=
0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfo=
nt" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.=
0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">This does not take into account that AEAD o=
peration may operate less than optimal because the packet number must be ex=
tracted first. On the other hand, it is also not a disastrous overhead if n=
o good alternative can be found.=C2=A0</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" st=
yle=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);mar=
gin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"f=
ont-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;=
line-height:auto">Earlier AES-NI I=E2=80=99ve seen from Intel doc suggests =
around 100cycles in HW for a single AES-128 block which would be 33ns per p=
acket number in the above example.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin=
:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><p class=3D"airmail_on">On 10 February 201=
8 at 06.18.25, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen (<a href=3D"mailto:mikkelf=
j@gmail.com">mikkelfj@gmail.com</a>) wrote:</p> <blockquote type=3D"cite" c=
lass=3D"clean_bq"><span><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:&q=
uot;helvetica Neue&quot;,helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-va=
riant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start=
;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;ba=
ckground-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline!important;float:none">98ns f=
or 68 byte messages</span></div></span></blockquote></body></html>

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From: "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>
To: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>
CC: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>,  Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, "Praveen Balasubramanian" <pravb@microsoft.com>
Subject: Re: hardware offload (was: Packet number encryption)
Thread-Topic: hardware offload (was: Packet number encryption)
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Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2018 14:25:39 +0000
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On 2018-2-9, at 13:46, Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com> wrote:
> Hardware acceleration of AES in modern CPUs is extremely good, so =
another approach is to do the above in a userspace networking stack or =
the kernel and use the CPU's AES acceleration.  If the networking code =
that was writing into NIC memory had a deep understanding of QUIC, =
possibly it could do the packet number encryption as a second pass?

FWIW, this is exactly what I intend on doing with quant, which can sit =
on top of netmap. At the moment, I do the crypto on the same core as =
anything else (so I can run-to-completion w/o locks), but eventually I =
want to try to push things over to other cores for crypto.

I'm also chatting with the Cambridge NetFPGA people to see what type of =
crypto (and segmentation offload they could provide that would tie in =
well with a QUIC stack.

Lars

--Apple-Mail=_44DC5A63-5ED2-4E37-B9AF-C3B389B36F11
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">On =
2018-2-9, at 13:46, Ian Swett &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ianswett@google.com" =
class=3D"">ianswett@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: =
inline !important;" class=3D"">Hardware acceleration of AES in modern =
CPUs is extremely good, so another approach is to do the above in a =
userspace networking stack or the kernel and use the CPU's AES =
acceleration.&nbsp; If the networking code that was writing into NIC =
memory had a deep understanding of QUIC, possibly it could do the packet =
number encryption as a second pass?</span></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">FWIW, this is exactly what I intend on doing =
with quant, which can sit on top of netmap. At the moment, I do the =
crypto on the same core as anything else (so I can run-to-completion w/o =
locks), but eventually I want to try to push things over to other cores =
for crypto.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I'm =
also chatting with the Cambridge NetFPGA people to see what type of =
crypto (and segmentation offload they could provide that would tie in =
well with a QUIC stack.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Lars</div></body></html>=

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Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2018 11:08:18 -0500
From: Dmitri Tikhonov <dtikhonov@litespeedtech.com>
To: Charles 'Buck' Krasic <ckrasic@google.com>
Cc: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>, Lucas Pardue <Lucas.Pardue@bbc.co.uk>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>
Subject: Re: Review of QCRAM
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On Fri, Feb 09, 2018 at 02:22:22PM -0800, Charles 'Buck' Krasic wrote:
> On blocked evictions.
> 
> a) there's a real possibility that setting table size to 64KB is the most
> elegant solution, because evictions may not happen for the vast majority of
> connections.

I think this is the opposite of "elegant."

HTTPQ is not just a protocol for web browsers.  We should try to make
the header compression mechanism perform well in various scenarios.

In addition, we were getting good compression performance with 4KB tables
in our simulations.  Increasing the size to 64KB to address that which
can be solved by other means seems like a suboptimal approach.

  - Dmitri.


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From: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
To: "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>, Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>
CC: huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: hardware offload (was: Packet number encryption)
Thread-Topic: hardware offload (was: Packet number encryption)
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>> I want to try to push things over to other cores for crypto
There might be context switch costs and cache misses. I don't know if this =
will be better than just doing it inline on current core. Run to completion=
 makes for easier to maintain implementation and no locks is great. Plus th=
e overall CPU cost of network stack processing will remain the same and may=
be even go up a tad bit.

From: Eggert, Lars [mailto:lars@netapp.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2018 6:26 AM
To: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>
Cc: huitema <huitema@huitema.net>; Salz, Rich <rsalz@akamai.com>; Eric Resc=
orla <ekr@rtfm.com>; quic@ietf.org; Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsof=
t.com>
Subject: Re: hardware offload (was: Packet number encryption)

On 2018-2-9, at 13:46, Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com<mailto:ianswett@googl=
e.com>> wrote:
Hardware acceleration of AES in modern CPUs is extremely good, so another a=
pproach is to do the above in a userspace networking stack or the kernel an=
d use the CPU's AES acceleration.  If the networking code that was writing =
into NIC memory had a deep understanding of QUIC, possibly it could do the =
packet number encryption as a second pass?

FWIW, this is exactly what I intend on doing with quant, which can sit on t=
op of netmap. At the moment, I do the crypto on the same core as anything e=
lse (so I can run-to-completion w/o locks), but eventually I want to try to=
 push things over to other cores for crypto.

I'm also chatting with the Cambridge NetFPGA people to see what type of cry=
pto (and segmentation offload they could provide that would tie in well wit=
h a QUIC stack.

Lars

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&gt;&gt; I want to try to push things over to other =
cores for crypto<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">There might be context switch costs and cache misses=
. I don&#8217;t know if this will be better than just doing it inline on cu=
rrent core. Run to completion makes for easier to maintain implementation a=
nd no locks is great. Plus the overall CPU
 cost of network stack processing will remain the same and maybe even go up=
 a tad bit.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Eggert, Lars [mailto:lars@netapp.com] <=
br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, February 10, 2018 6:26 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Ian Swett &lt;ianswett@google.com&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> huitema &lt;huitema@huitema.net&gt;; Salz, Rich &lt;rsalz@akamai=
.com&gt;; Eric Rescorla &lt;ekr@rtfm.com&gt;; quic@ietf.org; Praveen Balasu=
bramanian &lt;pravb@microsoft.com&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: hardware offload (was: Packet number encryption)<o:p></=
o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 2018-2-9, at 13:46, Ian Swett &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:ianswett@google.com">ianswett@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Men=
lo-Regular&quot;,serif">Hardware acceleration of AES in modern CPUs is extr=
emely good, so another approach is to do the above in a userspace networkin=
g stack or the kernel and use the CPU's AES acceleration.&nbsp;
 If the networking code that was writing into NIC memory had a deep underst=
anding of QUIC, possibly it could do the packet number encryption as a seco=
nd pass?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">FWIW, this is exactly what I intend on doing with qu=
ant, which can sit on top of netmap. At the moment, I do the crypto on the =
same core as anything else (so I can run-to-completion w/o locks), but even=
tually I want to try to push things
 over to other cores for crypto.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I'm also chatting with the Cambridge NetFPGA people =
to see what type of crypto (and segmentation offload they could provide tha=
t would tie in well with a QUIC stack.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Lars<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_CY4PR21MB01334422F4AEE04A02A28066B6F10CY4PR21MB0133namp_--


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Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2018 18:34:54 +0100
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Subject: Measurement bit(s) or not
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On 07/02/2018 14:34, Brian Trammell (IETF) wrote:
 > hi Jana,
 >
 >> 3. Some sequencing information -- a few bits of the packet number perhaps
 >> -- should be revealed (for monitoring. Number of bits TBD.)
 >
 > This is the crux of the argument. On one side we have the risk of misuse and
 > ossification (well, not ossification -- these bits are *meant* for the path
 > -- rather the risk that we'll figure out later that we specified the wrong
 > thing), on the other side we have the loss of visibility into how QUIC
 > traffic interacts with the network as compared to TCP, with a side question
 > of whether or not this visibility is really the transport layer's problem
 > despite the evolution the practice of diagnostics and troubleshooting using
 > TCP information.
 >
 > If we can come to agreement on this question, everything else falls into
 > place. I have my arguments here, but as you said, this subthread is not the
 > place for them. :)

The crux indeed. So what about settling it first ?

With the troubleshooting hat, I can only stress the need for measurement bits, 
for the benefit of everybody, since s**t happens, networks are imperfect, and 
nifty encapsulations-with-seqnum will simply not be where you need them.

Now to the exact nature of these measurement bits:

Thanks to the detailed exchanges on this thread, it is by now clear that a 
simple gapless counter, even nonzero-based and XORed, is not acceptable. The 
4-bit SSN comes pretty close but is not enough when things go really wrong (and 
they will - and that's where we need the tool).

Then Kazuho's square signal and Mikkel's Pi (or any other consensual 
self-synchronizing sequence) ramification came up. They are both appealing for 
their elegance and low complexity on QUIC endpoints. Beyond their quirks 
acknowledged here, here are a few considerations for troubleshooting:

  (1) Since reordering is less of a concern to QUIC than to TCP, it becomes a 
secondary goal. This is nice, because the square doesn't see it, and the 
self-synchronizing sequence will only tolerate a mild one, and never see its 
detail like cycle length etc.

  (2) There's of course a huge difference between them in complexity for the 
midpoint: square is trivial, Pi is hefty.

Given these, a benevolent, troubleshooting-minded passive midpoint will clearly 
vote for the square. Now the obvious question is: is this acceptable, or deemed 
too easy for a Murphy, Inc. active middlebox to see upstream losses and 
benevolently wreak havoc by delaying packets ?

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From nobody Sat Feb 10 10:02:03 2018
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Subject: Re: Measurement bit(s) or not
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> On 10 Feb 2018, at 17:34, <alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com> <alexandre.ferri=
eux@orange.com> wrote:
>=20
> On 07/02/2018 14:34, Brian Trammell (IETF) wrote:
> > hi Jana,
> >
> >> 3. Some sequencing information -- a few bits of the packet number perha=
ps
> >> -- should be revealed (for monitoring. Number of bits TBD.)
> >
> > This is the crux of the argument. On one side we have the risk of misuse=
 and
> > ossification (well, not ossification -- these bits are *meant* for the p=
ath
> > -- rather the risk that we'll figure out later that we specified the wro=
ng
> > thing), on the other side we have the loss of visibility into how QUIC
> > traffic interacts with the network as compared to TCP, with a side quest=
ion
> > of whether or not this visibility is really the transport layer's proble=
m
> > despite the evolution the practice of diagnostics and troubleshooting us=
ing
> > TCP information.
> >
> > If we can come to agreement on this question, everything else falls into=

> > place. I have my arguments here, but as you said, this subthread is not t=
he
> > place for them. :)

> The crux indeed. So what about settling it first ?
>=20
> With the troubleshooting hat, I can only stress the need for measurement b=
its, for the benefit of everybody, since s**t happens, networks are imperfec=
t, and nifty encapsulations-with-seqnum will simply not be where you need th=
em.
>=20
+1
... at the time when this is most useful for troubleshooting, a lot may be h=
appening that is not normal.

> Now to the exact nature of these measurement bits:
>=20
> Thanks to the detailed exchanges on this thread, it is by now clear that a=
 simple gapless counter, even nonzero-based and XORed, is not acceptable.
Again +1

> The 4-bit SSN comes pretty close but is not enough when things go really w=
rong (and they will - and that's where we need the tool).
>=20
8 bits could be enough - and still would be les than 0.1% overhead.

> Then Kazuho's square signal and Mikkel's Pi (or any other consensual self-=
synchronizing sequence) ramification came up. They are both appealing for th=
eir elegance and low complexity on QUIC endpoints. Beyond their quirks ackno=
wledged here, here are a few considerations for troubleshooting:
>=20
> (1) Since reordering is less of a concern to QUIC than to TCP, it becomes a=
 secondary goal. This is nice, because the square doesn't see it, and the se=
lf-synchronizing sequence will only tolerate a mild one, and never see its d=
etail like cycle length etc.

Being able to observe that the network is doing this could still be good whe=
n debugging network faults.
>=20
> (2) There's of course a huge difference between them in complexity for the=
 midpoint: square is trivial, Pi is hefty.
>=20
> Given these, a benevolent, troubleshooting-minded passive midpoint will cl=
early vote for the square. Now the obvious question is: is this acceptable, o=
r deemed too easy for a Murphy, Inc. active middlebox to see upstream losses=
 and benevolently wreak havoc by delaying packets ?
>=20
No amount of encryption is going to actually prevent a middlebox/tunnel/lowe=
r layer doing things - such as link retransmission.

Gorry

> __________________________________________________________________________=
_______________________________________________
>=20
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confide=
ntielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez rec=
u ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages e=
lectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou=
 falsifie. Merci.
>=20
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged in=
formation that may be protected by law;
> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and del=
ete this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been=
 modified, changed or falsified.
> Thank you.


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Subject: RE: Packet number encryption
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
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I wrote up my previous suggestion to use segmented packet numbers with
clear text nonce in an issue, and I added a comment where I propose a
variation that encrypts the nonce, but this encryption is 16 times faster
than the current packet number encryption scheme. In both cases there is no
duplication of nonce and packet numbers because they are the same modulo
path.

https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1105



On 10 February 2018 at 19.22.50, Praveen Balasubramanian (
pravb@microsoft.com) wrote:

>> a packet number **exactly** meets the requirements of an authenticated
encrypted nonce. Not using it for that purpose is being wasteful for
absolutely no good reason.

For better or worse we have chosen to tie the transport very tightly with
TLS. This means extra work will be needed for unencrypted QUIC or QUIC over
IPsec for example. Case in point transport parameters not being in the
transport header but rather in the TLS header. In HTTPS over TCP, TLS will
use its own sequence number for nonce and TCP will have its own sequence
number. This is a clear separation of concerns. From what I can tell, since
QUIC uses its own packet framing and the PN doesn=E2=80=99t repeat we have =
tried to
optimize this by overloading it with the nonce.



That said nothing prevents an implementation from using the packet number
as the nonce. By separating concerns one can pick whatever one wants for
the nonce, the receiver doesn=E2=80=99t care about the nonce value other th=
an for
decryption i.e. no impact on transport logic. We can use a VLE field or
other methods to reduce the extra space needed for the PN.



>> and then encrypting the nonce

You don=E2=80=99t have to but you can . The only *functional* requirement f=
or the
nonce is non-repeatability. Encryption is only being considered for
ossification and unlinkability concerns. For connections that don=E2=80=99t=
 care
about unlinkability (no migration, no multi path) the overhead is not worth
it. Ossification can be avoided by a random initial value and jumps in
between since this is a form of greasing.



>> Do you have a non-authenticated crypto mechanism we should consider?

I am not a crypto expert. I don=E2=80=99t know what future crypto will look=
 like.
Making the nonce field optional or larger size when needed (but not
variable for given connection) allows the transport protocol to be more
future proof. Forcing the PN to be the nonce makes things more inflexible.
I care much less about the nonce getting ossified compared to the PN.



*From:* Salz, Rich [mailto:rsalz@akamai.com]
*Sent:* Friday, February 9, 2018 3:37 PM
*To:* Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
*Cc:* quic@ietf.org
*Subject:* Re: Packet number encryption



> Clear separation of concerns results if we don=E2=80=99t overload the pac=
ket
number as the nonce. Connection migration and multi-path are optional
features and we pay no extra compute cost for most connections that are not
impacted by unlnkability. Nonce field becomes optional for crypto that
doesn=E2=80=99t need it and can grow to larger size as needed for bulk tran=
sfers to
prevent frequent key rollovers (say in datacenter scenarios).



David already replied pretty definitively, but for those not on his level =
=E2=80=A6



It seems highly unlikely that we will want to use non-authenticated crypto
=E2=80=93 ie., AEAD or similar.  TLS 1.3 is all and only authenticated encr=
yption.
The difference in cost is a few extra bytes of encryption, as opposed to
bigger packets for plaintext and then encrypting the nonce, right?  That
difference should be hard to notice.



If we assume it=E2=80=99s all authenticated crypto, and therefore we need a=
 nonce,
then separation of concerns becomes a non-issue. In fact, as David pointed
out, a packet number **exactly** meets the requirements of an authenticated
encrypted nonce. Not using it for that purpose is being wasteful for
absolutely no good reason.



Do you have a non-authenticated crypto mechanism we should consider?

--001a1144b82829a12d0564e0e09f
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">I wrote up my previo=
us suggestion to use segmented packet numbers with clear text nonce in an i=
ssue, and I added a comment where I propose a variation that encrypts the n=
once, but this encryption is 16 times faster than the current packet number=
 encryption scheme. In both cases there is no duplication of nonce and pack=
et numbers because they are the same modulo path.</div><div id=3D"bloop_cus=
tomfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0=
,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont"=
 style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);=
margin:0px;line-height:auto"><a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-draf=
ts/issues/1105">https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1105</a></div>=
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=
=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;c=
olor:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div> <br><p class=
=3D"airmail_on">On 10 February 2018 at 19.22.50, Praveen Balasubramanian (<=
a href=3D"mailto:pravb@microsoft.com">pravb@microsoft.com</a>) wrote:</p> <=
blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq"><span><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=
=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72"><div></div><div>






<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&gt;&gt; a packet number *<b>exactly</b>* meets the =
requirements of an authenticated encrypted nonce. Not using it for that pur=
pose is being wasteful for absolutely no good reason.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">For better or worse we have chosen to tie the transp=
ort very tightly with TLS. This means extra work will be needed for unencry=
pted QUIC or QUIC over IPsec for example. Case in point transport parameter=
s not being in the transport header
 but rather in the TLS header. In HTTPS over TCP, TLS will use its own sequ=
ence number for nonce and TCP will have its own sequence number. This is a =
clear separation of concerns. From what I can tell, since QUIC uses its own=
 packet framing and the PN doesn=E2=80=99t
 repeat we have tried to optimize this by overloading it with the nonce. </=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">That said nothing prevents an implementation from us=
ing the packet number as the nonce. By separating concerns one can pick wha=
tever one wants for the nonce, the receiver doesn=E2=80=99t care about the =
nonce value other than for decryption i.e.
 no impact on transport logic. We can use a VLE field or other methods to r=
educe the extra space needed for the PN.
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&gt;&gt; and then encrypting the nonce</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">You don=E2=80=99t have to but you can . The only <i>=
functional</i> requirement for the nonce is non-repeatability. Encryption i=
s only being considered for ossification and unlinkability concerns. For co=
nnections that don=E2=80=99t care about unlinkability
 (no migration, no multi path) the overhead is not worth it. Ossification c=
an be avoided by a random initial value and jumps in between since this is =
a form of greasing.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&gt;&gt; Do you have a non-authenticated crypto mech=
anism we should consider?</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I am not a crypto expert. I don=E2=80=99t know what =
future crypto will look like. Making the nonce field optional or larger siz=
e when needed (but not variable for given connection) allows the transport =
protocol to be more future proof. Forcing
 the PN to be the nonce makes things more inflexible. I care much less abou=
t the nonce getting ossified compared to the PN.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Salz, Rich [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:rs=
alz@akamai.com">rsalz@akamai.com</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, February 9, 2018 3:37 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Praveen Balasubramanian &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pravb@microsoft.co=
m">pravb@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Packet number encryption</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"_MailOriginalBody">&gt; Clear separation =
of concerns results if we don=E2=80=99t overload the packet number as the n=
once. Connection migration and multi-path are optional features and we pay =
no extra compute cost for most connections that
 are not impacted by unlnkability. Nonce field becomes optional for crypto =
that doesn=E2=80=99t need it and can grow to larger size as needed for bulk=
 transfers to prevent frequent key rollovers (say in datacenter scenarios).
</a></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody">=C2=
=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody">David=
 already replied pretty definitively, but for those not on his level =E2=80=
=A6</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody">=C2=
=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody">It se=
ems highly unlikely that we will want to use non-authenticated crypto =E2=
=80=93 ie., AEAD or similar.=C2=A0 TLS 1.3 is all and only authenticated en=
cryption.=C2=A0 The difference in cost is a few extra bytes
 of encryption, as opposed to bigger packets for plaintext and then encrypt=
ing the nonce, right?=C2=A0 That difference should be hard to notice.</span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody">=C2=
=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody">If we=
 assume it=E2=80=99s all authenticated crypto, and therefore we need a nonc=
e, then separation of concerns becomes a non-issue. In fact, as David point=
ed out, a packet number *<b>exactly</b>* meets
 the requirements of an authenticated encrypted nonce. Not using it for tha=
t purpose is being wasteful for absolutely no good reason.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody">=C2=
=A0</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-bookmark:_MailOriginalBody">Do yo=
u have a non-authenticated crypto mechanism we should consider?</span></p>
</div>


</div></div></span></blockquote></body></html>

--001a1144b82829a12d0564e0e09f--


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From: "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>
To: "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, "alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com" <alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com>
Subject: RE: Measurement bit(s) or not
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--_000_aa7a56d01f0a41fe9ad0fd9e61c54c50usma1exdag1mb5msgcorpak_
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I am a bit sceptical about the square. With TCP, packet trace shows loss of=
 any packet, except for SYN. The "square wave" whould show no loss at all f=
or short connections (fewer than a "wavelength" of packets). Moreover, the =
square wave can only detect loss after up to the wave length of subsequent =
packets has been transmitted. If there is an application pause in transmiss=
ion, loss may not become evident.

Basically, a spin bit or a bit pattern (like a square wave) may help in tro=
ubleshooting, but it will be more uncertain and hokey than what people come=
 to expect of tcp. We have be very clear in acknowledging it.

-----Original Message-----
From: alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com [alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com]
Received: Saturday, 10 Feb 2018, 12:34PM
To: quic@ietf.org [quic@ietf.org]
Subject: Measurement bit(s) or not

On 07/02/2018 14:34, Brian Trammell (IETF) wrote:
 > hi Jana,
 >
 >> 3. Some sequencing information -- a few bits of the packet number perha=
ps
 >> -- should be revealed (for monitoring. Number of bits TBD.)
 >
 > This is the crux of the argument. On one side we have the risk of misuse=
 and
 > ossification (well, not ossification -- these bits are *meant* for the p=
ath
 > -- rather the risk that we'll figure out later that we specified the wro=
ng
 > thing), on the other side we have the loss of visibility into how QUIC
 > traffic interacts with the network as compared to TCP, with a side quest=
ion
 > of whether or not this visibility is really the transport layer's proble=
m
 > despite the evolution the practice of diagnostics and troubleshooting us=
ing
 > TCP information.
 >
 > If we can come to agreement on this question, everything else falls into
 > place. I have my arguments here, but as you said, this subthread is not =
the
 > place for them. :)

The crux indeed. So what about settling it first ?

With the troubleshooting hat, I can only stress the need for measurement bi=
ts,
for the benefit of everybody, since s**t happens, networks are imperfect, a=
nd
nifty encapsulations-with-seqnum will simply not be where you need them.

Now to the exact nature of these measurement bits:

Thanks to the detailed exchanges on this thread, it is by now clear that a
simple gapless counter, even nonzero-based and XORed, is not acceptable. Th=
e
4-bit SSN comes pretty close but is not enough when things go really wrong =
(and
they will - and that's where we need the tool).

Then Kazuho's square signal and Mikkel's Pi (or any other consensual
self-synchronizing sequence) ramification came up. They are both appealing =
for
their elegance and low complexity on QUIC endpoints. Beyond their quirks
acknowledged here, here are a few considerations for troubleshooting:

  (1) Since reordering is less of a concern to QUIC than to TCP, it becomes=
 a
secondary goal. This is nice, because the square doesn't see it, and the
self-synchronizing sequence will only tolerate a mild one, and never see it=
s
detail like cycle length etc.

  (2) There's of course a huge difference between them in complexity for th=
e
midpoint: square is trivial, Pi is hefty.

Given these, a benevolent, troubleshooting-minded passive midpoint will cle=
arly
vote for the square. Now the obvious question is: is this acceptable, or de=
emed
too easy for a Murphy, Inc. active middlebox to see upstream losses and
benevolently wreak havoc by delaying packets ?

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--_000_aa7a56d01f0a41fe9ad0fd9e61c54c50usma1exdag1mb5msgcorpak_
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1">
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<body>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:11p=
t; color:black">
<span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:11=
pt; color:black">I am a bit sceptical about the square. With TCP, packet tr=
ace shows loss of any packet, except for SYN. The &quot;square wave&quot; w=
hould show no loss at all for short connections
 (fewer than a &quot;wavelength&quot; of packets). Moreover, the square wav=
e can only detect loss after up to the wave length of subsequent packets ha=
s been transmitted. If there is an application pause in transmission, loss =
may not become evident.<br>
<br>
Basically, a spin bit or a bit pattern (like a square wave) may help in tro=
ubleshooting, but it will be more uncertain and hokey than what people come=
 to expect of tcp. We have be very clear in acknowledging it.<br>
<br>
<span style=3D"color:black">-----Original Message----- <br>
<b>From:</b> alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com [alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com]<=
br>
<b>Received:</b> Saturday, 10 Feb 2018, 12:34PM<br>
<b>To:</b> quic@ietf.org [quic@ietf.org]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Measurement bit(s) or not<br>
<br>
</span></span></div>
<font size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;">
<div class=3D"PlainText">On 07/02/2018 14:34, Brian Trammell (IETF) wrote:<=
br>
&nbsp;&gt; hi Jana,<br>
&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&nbsp;&gt;&gt; 3. Some sequencing information -- a few bits of the packet n=
umber perhaps<br>
&nbsp;&gt;&gt; -- should be revealed (for monitoring. Number of bits TBD.)<=
br>
&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&nbsp;&gt; This is the crux of the argument. On one side we have the risk o=
f misuse and<br>
&nbsp;&gt; ossification (well, not ossification -- these bits are *meant* f=
or the path<br>
&nbsp;&gt; -- rather the risk that we'll figure out later that we specified=
 the wrong<br>
&nbsp;&gt; thing), on the other side we have the loss of visibility into ho=
w QUIC<br>
&nbsp;&gt; traffic interacts with the network as compared to TCP, with a si=
de question<br>
&nbsp;&gt; of whether or not this visibility is really the transport layer'=
s problem<br>
&nbsp;&gt; despite the evolution the practice of diagnostics and troublesho=
oting using<br>
&nbsp;&gt; TCP information.<br>
&nbsp;&gt;<br>
&nbsp;&gt; If we can come to agreement on this question, everything else fa=
lls into<br>
&nbsp;&gt; place. I have my arguments here, but as you said, this subthread=
 is not the<br>
&nbsp;&gt; place for them. :)<br>
<br>
The crux indeed. So what about settling it first ?<br>
<br>
With the troubleshooting hat, I can only stress the need for measurement bi=
ts, <br>
for the benefit of everybody, since s**t happens, networks are imperfect, a=
nd <br>
nifty encapsulations-with-seqnum will simply not be where you need them.<br=
>
<br>
Now to the exact nature of these measurement bits:<br>
<br>
Thanks to the detailed exchanges on this thread, it is by now clear that a =
<br>
simple gapless counter, even nonzero-based and XORed, is not acceptable. Th=
e <br>
4-bit SSN comes pretty close but is not enough when things go really wrong =
(and <br>
they will - and that's where we need the tool).<br>
<br>
Then Kazuho's square signal and Mikkel's Pi (or any other consensual <br>
self-synchronizing sequence) ramification came up. They are both appealing =
for <br>
their elegance and low complexity on QUIC endpoints. Beyond their quirks <b=
r>
acknowledged here, here are a few considerations for troubleshooting:<br>
<br>
&nbsp; (1) Since reordering is less of a concern to QUIC than to TCP, it be=
comes a <br>
secondary goal. This is nice, because the square doesn't see it, and the <b=
r>
self-synchronizing sequence will only tolerate a mild one, and never see it=
s <br>
detail like cycle length etc.<br>
<br>
&nbsp; (2) There's of course a huge difference between them in complexity f=
or the <br>
midpoint: square is trivial, Pi is hefty.<br>
<br>
Given these, a benevolent, troubleshooting-minded passive midpoint will cle=
arly <br>
vote for the square. Now the obvious question is: is this acceptable, or de=
emed <br>
too easy for a Murphy, Inc. active middlebox to see upstream losses and <br=
>
benevolently wreak havoc by delaying packets ?<br>
<br>
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Events without label "editorial"

Issues
------
* quicwg/base-drafts (+8/-5/=F0=9F=92=AC40)
  8 issues created:
  - Segmented Packet Numbers (by mikkelfj)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1105 =

  - wrong MSS value in congestion avoidance phase (by yangchi)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1102 =

  - Asymmetric Connection IDs (by ekr)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1101 =

  - Push Stream Header duplication (by LPardue)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1099 =

  - Stream error handling is ambiguously specified (by huitema)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1098 =

  - Should path migration mimic an initial connection? (by huitema)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1096 =

  - Clarify how frames are retransmitted (by mikkelfj)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1095 =

  - Clarification: HRR which does not perform address validation (by tatsuh=
iro-t)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1094 =


  10 issues received 40 new comments:
  - #1094 Clarification: HRR which does not perform address validation (17 =
by kazuho, janaiyengar, MikeBishop, martinthomson, mcmanus, huitema, ianswe=
tt)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1094 [-tls] [design] =

  - #203 Connection migration should be indistinguishable from a new connec=
tion (6 by kazuho, larseggert, huitema, mikkelfj)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/203 [-transport] [design] =
[quicv2] =

  - #441 Priority grouping node ambiguity (6 by martinthomson, MikeBishop, =
kazuho, ianswett)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/441 [-http] [design] =

  - #1101 Asymmetric Connection IDs (4 by hardie, ekr, mikkelfj)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1101 =

  - #1105 Segmented Packet Numbers (2 by mikkelfj)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1105 =

  - #296 GREASE and Version Negotiation Hint (1 by MikeBishop)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/296 [-http] [design] =

  - #879 RTT Measurement for HelloRetryRequest (1 by marten-seemann)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/879 [-transport] [design] =

  - #1096 Should path migration mimic an initial connection? (1 by ianswett)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1096 =

  - #219 Increasing initial flow control window for streams (1 by MikeBisho=
p)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/219 [-transport] [design] =

  - #1085 Handshake failure with Retry and multiple Initial packets (1 by m=
arten-seemann)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1085 [-tls] [design] =


  5 issues closed:
  - Asymmetric Connection IDs https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/=
1101 [-transport] [design] =

  - GREASE and Version Negotiation Hint https://github.com/quicwg/base-draf=
ts/issues/296 [-http] [design] =

  - Guidance for port number use https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issu=
es/495 [-http] [-ops] [design] =

  - Avoid tracking bits in Alt-Svc quic=3D parameter https://github.com/qui=
cwg/base-drafts/issues/1081 [-http] =

  - Should path migration mimic an initial connection? https://github.com/q=
uicwg/base-drafts/issues/1096 =




Pull requests
-------------
* quicwg/base-drafts (+3/-3/=F0=9F=92=AC9)
  3 pull requests submitted:
  - Fix the label length in the QHKDF-Expand example (by nharper)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1104 =

  - Fix outdated function reference (by martinduke)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1103 =

  - Extract request cancellation from GOAWAY (by MikeBishop)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1100 =


  3 pull requests received 9 new comments:
  - #1097 Alt-Svc quic=3D a list (6 by martinthomson, LPardue, MikeBishop)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1097 [-http] =

  - #1100 Extract request cancellation from GOAWAY (2 by martinthomson, Mik=
eBishop)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1100 [-http] =

  - #257 do not normatively specify application delivery order (1 by MikeBi=
shop)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/257 [-transport] [parked] =


  3 pull requests merged:
  - Fix the label length in the QHKDF-Expand example
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1104 =

  - Fix outdated function reference
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1103 =

  - Alt-Svc quic=3D a list
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1097 =



Repositories tracked by this digest:
-----------------------------------
* https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts

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<body>
<h1>Sunday February 11, 2018</h1>

<p>Events without label "editorial"</p>

<h2>Issues</h2>

<h3>quicwg/base-drafts (+8/-5/=F0=9F=92=AC40)</h3>
  <p class=3D"new">8 issues created:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#1105 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1105">S=
egmented Packet Numbers</a> (by mikkelfj) </li>
  =

  <li>#1102 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1102">w=
rong MSS value in congestion avoidance phase</a> (by yangchi) </li>
  =

  <li>#1101 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1101">A=
symmetric Connection IDs</a> (by ekr) </li>
  =

  <li>#1099 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1099">P=
ush Stream Header duplication</a> (by LPardue) </li>
  =

  <li>#1098 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1098">S=
tream error handling is ambiguously specified</a> (by huitema) </li>
  =

  <li>#1096 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1096">S=
hould path migration mimic an initial connection?</a> (by huitema) </li>
  =

  <li>#1095 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1095">C=
larify how frames are retransmitted</a> (by mikkelfj) </li>
  =

  <li>#1094 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1094">C=
larification: HRR which does not perform address validation</a> (by tatsuhi=
ro-t) </li>
  </ul>

  <p>10 issues received 40 new comments:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#1094 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1094">C=
larification: HRR which does not perform address validation</a> (17 by kazu=
ho, janaiyengar, MikeBishop, martinthomson, mcmanus, huitema, ianswett) <sp=
an class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-tls=
</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color: #f=
fffff">design</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#203 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/203">Con=
nection migration should be indistinguishable from a new connection</a> (6 =
by kazuho, larseggert, huitema, mikkelfj) <span class=3D"label" style=3D"ba=
ckground-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-transport</span> <span class=3D"l=
abel" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color: #ffffff">design</span> <sp=
an class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #8e64e0; color: #ffffff">quic=
v2</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#441 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/441">Pri=
ority grouping node ambiguity</a> (6 by martinthomson, MikeBishop, kazuho, =
ianswett) <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: =
#000000">-http</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d7=
6db; color: #ffffff">design</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#1101 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1101">A=
symmetric Connection IDs</a> (4 by hardie, ekr, mikkelfj) </li>
  =

  <li>#1105 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1105">S=
egmented Packet Numbers</a> (2 by mikkelfj) </li>
  =

  <li>#296 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/296">GRE=
ASE and Version Negotiation Hint</a> (1 by MikeBishop) <span class=3D"label=
" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-http</span> <span cl=
ass=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color: #ffffff">design</s=
pan> </li>
  =

  <li>#879 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/879">RTT=
 Measurement for HelloRetryRequest</a> (1 by marten-seemann) <span class=3D=
"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-transport</spa=
n> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color: #ffffff=
">design</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#1096 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1096">S=
hould path migration mimic an initial connection?</a> (1 by ianswett) </li>
  =

  <li>#219 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/219">Inc=
reasing initial flow control window for streams</a> (1 by MikeBishop) <span=
 class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-trans=
port</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color=
: #ffffff">design</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#1085 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1085">H=
andshake failure with Retry and multiple Initial packets</a> (1 by marten-s=
eemann) <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #0=
00000">-tls</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db=
; color: #ffffff">design</span> </li>
  </ul>

  <p>5 issues closed:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#1101 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1101">A=
symmetric Connection IDs</a> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-colo=
r: #fbca04; color: #000000">-transport</span> <span class=3D"label" style=
=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color: #ffffff">design</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#296 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/296">GRE=
ASE and Version Negotiation Hint</a> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"backgro=
und-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-http</span> <span class=3D"label" styl=
e=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color: #ffffff">design</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#495 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/495">Gui=
dance for port number use</a> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-col=
or: #fbca04; color: #000000">-http</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"ba=
ckground-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-ops</span> <span class=3D"label" =
style=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color: #ffffff">design</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#1081 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1081">A=
void tracking bits in Alt-Svc quic=3D parameter</a> <span class=3D"label" s=
tyle=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-http</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#1096 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1096">S=
hould path migration mimic an initial connection?</a> </li>
  </ul>



<h2>Pull requests</h2>
<h3>quicwg/base-drafts (+3/-3/=F0=9F=92=AC9)</h3>
  <p class=3D"new">3 pull requests submitted:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#1104 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1104">Fix=
 the label length in the QHKDF-Expand example</a> (by nharper) </li>
  =

  <li>#1103 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1103">Fix=
 outdated function reference</a> (by martinduke) </li>
  =

  <li>#1100 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1100">Ext=
ract request cancellation from GOAWAY</a> (by MikeBishop) </li>
  </ul>

  <p>3 pull requests received 9 new comments:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#1097 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1097">Alt=
-Svc quic=3D a list</a> (6 by martinthomson, LPardue, MikeBishop) <span cla=
ss=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-http</spa=
n> </li>
  =

  <li>#1100 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1100">Ext=
ract request cancellation from GOAWAY</a> (2 by martinthomson, MikeBishop) =
<span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-=
http</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#257 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/257">do no=
t normatively specify application delivery order</a> (1 by MikeBishop) <spa=
n class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-tran=
sport</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #f9d0c4; colo=
r: #000000">parked</span> </li>
  </ul>

  <p>3 pull requests merged:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#1104 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1104">Fix=
 the label length in the QHKDF-Expand example</a> </li>
  =

  <li>#1103 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1103">Fix=
 outdated function reference</a> </li>
  =

  <li>#1097 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1097">Alt=
-Svc quic=3D a list</a> </li>
  </ul>


<h2>Repositories tracked by this digest:</h2>
<ul class=3D"repos">
  <li><a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts">https://github.com/=
quicwg/base-drafts</a></li>
  </ul>
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Subject: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-quic-perf-metrics-00.txt (Re: Measurement bit(s) or not)
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2018-02-11 2:34 GMT+09:00  <alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com>:
> Then Kazuho's square signal and Mikkel's Pi (or any other consensual
> self-synchronizing sequence) ramification came up. They are both appealing
> for their elegance and low complexity on QUIC endpoints. Beyond their quirks
> acknowledged here, here are a few considerations for troubleshooting:
> (snip)
> Given these, a benevolent, troubleshooting-minded passive midpoint will
> clearly vote for the square. Now the obvious question is: is this
> acceptable, or deemed too easy for a Murphy, Inc. active middlebox to see
> upstream losses and benevolently wreak havoc by delaying packets ?

Thank you for raising the question.

While I think that using square wave is a neat idea, I am not so sure
if the wavelength is correct, or if it would continue to be correct
for the lifetime of the transport protocol. I assume that other
patterns that have been proposed (e.g., PI, random) share the same
weakness.

Therefore, I have written a proposal of a very different approach,
which is the following I-D.

    Performance Metrics Subprotocol for QUIC
    https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kazuho-quic-perf-metrics/

The I-D proposes to add a subprotocol that is used between an on-path
observer and the QUIC server to obtain the performance metrics. At the
latency of 1 RTT, the subprotocol can observe accurate upstream
loss/reorder rate, as well as SRTT / RTTVAR.

I believe that it is not difficult to implement on the server-side
(please refer to section 4). Client needs no change.

Since the proposed approach does not hard-code any information for
observation on the wire, the hard part of the design issue goes away.
We can adjust what (and how) to observe independently from the QUIC
transport. I think that this is not only a win in terms of design but
also might have positive effect on moving the standardization process
forward, since we would no longer be constrained by the discussion of
what should be observable "on-the-wire."

Privacy concern regarding observation becomes minor, since observation
becomes "observable" and deniable by an endpoint.

Although SRTT / RTTVAR is observable, I am not sure if it can be used
to replace the Spin Bit proposal. It depends on how often and how fast
an observer needs to see the metrics. Primary target of my proposal is
to help diagnosing issues.

Please let me know what you think.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From:  <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
Date: 2018-02-12 1:43 GMT+09:00
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-quic-perf-metrics-00.txt
To: Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>



A new version of I-D, draft-kazuho-quic-perf-metrics-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by Kazuho Oku and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:           draft-kazuho-quic-perf-metrics
Revision:       00
Title:          Performance Metrics Subprotocol for QUIC
Document date:  2018-02-12
Group:          Individual Submission
Pages:          8
URL:
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-kazuho-quic-perf-metrics-00.txt
Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kazuho-quic-perf-metrics/
Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kazuho-quic-perf-metrics-00
Htmlized:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-kazuho-quic-perf-metrics-00


Abstract:
   This memo proposes a subprotocol that can be used to query the
   performance metrics of a QUIC path.




Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat



-- 
Kazuho Oku


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Subject: Re: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-quic-perf-metrics-00.txt (Re: Measurement bit(s) or not)
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--001a113520ee718ec10564f39b35
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I need to read it more closely to understand the finer details, but my
immediate reaction is that I do not like this at all.

It appears to add unnecessary complication and there could be a host of
hidden security issues. The basic fact that someone other than the
endpoints can affect the traffic can lead to all sorts of issues and the
information transmitted might be abused in a number of ways, for example to
learn about the kind of traffic being sent, the internal layout of a
subnetwork by leaking presence of other middleware, the OS and applications
in use etc.

I much prefer a simple no-nonsense solution over trying to handle protocol
lifetime variations. The QUIC protocol could fix issues in new versions and
until then a simple predictable signal should suffice, even if it isn=E2=80=
=99t
perfect. This also makes middleware simpler, since a signal is always
present in a predictable manner.

We could have some fractal square waves to deal by having a short repeating
signal that periodically changes at different wave lengths, e.g. a a
repeating 8 bit pattern where each bit is flipped at the period of the wave
length it represents. That ought to be enough. The pattern repeats every 8
packets. The wave lengths could be 16, 32, 64, 128,  256, 512, 1024, 2048
so that same 8 bits are always transmitted twice before a bit changes which
should help synchronise it. It might not be perfect, but it ought to be
sufficient.

I=E2=80=99m also starting to think that just exposing a sequential counter =
per path
is much simpler even if it leads to ossification - see segment packet
number proposal https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1105



Kind Regards,
Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen


On 11 February 2018 at 17.51.37, Kazuho Oku (kazuhooku@gmail.com) wrote:

2018-02-11 2:34 GMT+09:00 <alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com>:
> Then Kazuho's square signal and Mikkel's Pi (or any other consensual
> self-synchronizing sequence) ramification came up. They are both
appealing
> for their elegance and low complexity on QUIC endpoints. Beyond their
quirks
> acknowledged here, here are a few considerations for troubleshooting:
> (snip)
> Given these, a benevolent, troubleshooting-minded passive midpoint will
> clearly vote for the square. Now the obvious question is: is this
> acceptable, or deemed too easy for a Murphy, Inc. active middlebox to see
> upstream losses and benevolently wreak havoc by delaying packets ?

Thank you for raising the question.

While I think that using square wave is a neat idea, I am not so sure
if the wavelength is correct, or if it would continue to be correct
for the lifetime of the transport protocol. I assume that other
patterns that have been proposed (e.g., PI, random) share the same
weakness.

Therefore, I have written a proposal of a very different approach,
which is the following I-D.

Performance Metrics Subprotocol for QUIC
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kazuho-quic-perf-metrics/

The I-D proposes to add a subprotocol that is used between an on-path
observer and the QUIC server to obtain the performance metrics. At the
latency of 1 RTT, the subprotocol can observe accurate upstream
loss/reorder rate, as well as SRTT / RTTVAR.

I believe that it is not difficult to implement on the server-side
(please refer to section 4). Client needs no change.

Since the proposed approach does not hard-code any information for
observation on the wire, the hard part of the design issue goes away.
We can adjust what (and how) to observe independently from the QUIC
transport. I think that this is not only a win in terms of design but
also might have positive effect on moving the standardization process
forward, since we would no longer be constrained by the discussion of
what should be observable "on-the-wire."

Privacy concern regarding observation becomes minor, since observation
becomes "observable" and deniable by an endpoint.

Although SRTT / RTTVAR is observable, I am not sure if it can be used
to replace the Spin Bit proposal. It depends on how often and how fast
an observer needs to see the metrics. Primary target of my proposal is
to help diagnosing issues.

Please let me know what you think.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
Date: 2018-02-12 1:43 GMT+09:00
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-quic-perf-metrics-00.txt
To: Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>



A new version of I-D, draft-kazuho-quic-perf-metrics-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by Kazuho Oku and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name: draft-kazuho-quic-perf-metrics
Revision: 00
Title: Performance Metrics Subprotocol for QUIC
Document date: 2018-02-12
Group: Individual Submission
Pages: 8
URL:
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-kazuho-quic-perf-metrics-00.txt
Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kazuho-quic-perf-metrics/
Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kazuho-quic-perf-metrics-00
Htmlized:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-kazuho-quic-perf-metrics-00


Abstract:
This memo proposes a subprotocol that can be used to query the
performance metrics of a QUIC path.




Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat



--=20
Kazuho Oku

--001a113520ee718ec10564f39b35
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">I need to read it mo=
re closely to understand the finer details, but my immediate reaction is th=
at I do not like this at all.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"fo=
nt-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;l=
ine-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-famil=
y:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-heig=
ht:auto">It appears to add unnecessary complication and there could be a ho=
st of hidden security issues. The basic fact that someone other than the en=
dpoints can affect the traffic can lead to all sorts of issues and the info=
rmation transmitted might be abused in a number of ways, for example to lea=
rn about the kind of traffic being sent, the internal layout of a subnetwor=
k by leaking presence of other middleware, the OS and applications in use e=
tc.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;=
font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div=
><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-siz=
e:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">I much prefer a s=
imple no-nonsense solution over trying to handle protocol lifetime variatio=
ns. The QUIC protocol could fix issues in new versions and until then a sim=
ple predictable signal should suffice, even if it isn=E2=80=99t perfect. Th=
is also makes middleware simpler, since a signal is always present in a pre=
dictable manner.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Hel=
vetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:au=
to"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,A=
rial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">We c=
ould have some fractal square waves to deal by having a short repeating sig=
nal that periodically changes at different wave lengths, e.g. a a repeating=
 8 bit pattern where each bit is flipped at the period of the wave length i=
t represents. That ought to be enough. The pattern repeats every 8 packets.=
 The wave lengths could be 16, 32, 64, 128, =C2=A0256, 512, 1024, 2048 so t=
hat same 8 bits are always transmitted twice before a bit changes which sho=
uld help synchronise it. It might not be perfect, but it ought to be suffic=
ient.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Aria=
l;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></d=
iv><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-s=
ize:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">I=E2=80=99m als=
o starting to think that just exposing a sequential counter per path is muc=
h simpler even if it leads to ossification - see segment packet number prop=
osal=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1105">htt=
ps://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1105</a></div><div id=3D"bloop_cu=
stomfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,=
0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont=
" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0)=
;margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div> <br> <div id=3D"bloop_sign_1518371=
068795803904" class=3D"bloop_sign"><div style=3D"font-family:helvetica,aria=
l;font-size:13px">Kind Regards,</div><div style=3D"font-family:helvetica,ar=
ial;font-size:13px">Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen<br><br></div></div> <=
br><p class=3D"airmail_on">On 11 February 2018 at 17.51.37, Kazuho Oku (<a =
href=3D"mailto:kazuhooku@gmail.com">kazuhooku@gmail.com</a>) wrote:</p> <bl=
ockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq"><span><div><div></div><div>2018-0=
2-11 2:34 GMT+09:00  &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com">a=
lexandre.ferrieux@orange.com</a>&gt;:
<br>&gt; Then Kazuho&#39;s square signal and Mikkel&#39;s Pi (or any other =
consensual
<br>&gt; self-synchronizing sequence) ramification came up. They are both a=
ppealing
<br>&gt; for their elegance and low complexity on QUIC endpoints. Beyond th=
eir quirks
<br>&gt; acknowledged here, here are a few considerations for troubleshooti=
ng:
<br>&gt; (snip)
<br>&gt; Given these, a benevolent, troubleshooting-minded passive midpoint=
 will
<br>&gt; clearly vote for the square. Now the obvious question is: is this
<br>&gt; acceptable, or deemed too easy for a Murphy, Inc. active middlebox=
 to see
<br>&gt; upstream losses and benevolently wreak havoc by delaying packets ?
<br>
<br>Thank you for raising the question.
<br>
<br>While I think that using square wave is a neat idea, I am not so sure
<br>if the wavelength is correct, or if it would continue to be correct
<br>for the lifetime of the transport protocol. I assume that other
<br>patterns that have been proposed (e.g., PI, random) share the same
<br>weakness.
<br>
<br>Therefore, I have written a proposal of a very different approach,
<br>which is the following I-D.
<br>
<br>    Performance Metrics Subprotocol for QUIC
<br>    <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kazuho-quic-perf-=
metrics/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kazuho-quic-perf-metrics/<=
/a>
<br>
<br>The I-D proposes to add a subprotocol that is used between an on-path
<br>observer and the QUIC server to obtain the performance metrics. At the
<br>latency of 1 RTT, the subprotocol can observe accurate upstream
<br>loss/reorder rate, as well as SRTT / RTTVAR.
<br>
<br>I believe that it is not difficult to implement on the server-side
<br>(please refer to section 4). Client needs no change.
<br>
<br>Since the proposed approach does not hard-code any information for
<br>observation on the wire, the hard part of the design issue goes away.
<br>We can adjust what (and how) to observe independently from the QUIC
<br>transport. I think that this is not only a win in terms of design but
<br>also might have positive effect on moving the standardization process
<br>forward, since we would no longer be constrained by the discussion of
<br>what should be observable &quot;on-the-wire.&quot;
<br>
<br>Privacy concern regarding observation becomes minor, since observation
<br>becomes &quot;observable&quot; and deniable by an endpoint.
<br>
<br>Although SRTT / RTTVAR is observable, I am not sure if it can be used
<br>to replace the Spin Bit proposal. It depends on how often and how fast
<br>an observer needs to see the metrics. Primary target of my proposal is
<br>to help diagnosing issues.
<br>
<br>Please let me know what you think.
<br>
<br>---------- Forwarded message ----------
<br>From:  &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org">internet-drafts@=
ietf.org</a>&gt;
<br>Date: 2018-02-12 1:43 GMT+09:00
<br>Subject: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-quic-perf-metrics-00=
.txt
<br>To: Kazuho Oku &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kazuhooku@gmail.com">kazuhooku@gma=
il.com</a>&gt;
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>A new version of I-D, draft-kazuho-quic-perf-metrics-00.txt
<br>has been successfully submitted by Kazuho Oku and posted to the
<br>IETF repository.
<br>
<br>Name:           draft-kazuho-quic-perf-metrics
<br>Revision:       00
<br>Title:          Performance Metrics Subprotocol for QUIC
<br>Document date:  2018-02-12
<br>Group:          Individual Submission
<br>Pages:          8
<br>URL:
<br><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-kazuho-quic-perf-=
metrics-00.txt">https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-kazuho-quic-perf=
-metrics-00.txt</a>
<br>Status:         <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kazuh=
o-quic-perf-metrics/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kazuho-quic-pe=
rf-metrics/</a>
<br>Htmlized:       <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kazuho-qui=
c-perf-metrics-00">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kazuho-quic-perf-metri=
cs-00</a>
<br>Htmlized:
<br><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-kazuho-quic-perf=
-metrics-00">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-kazuho-quic-perf-m=
etrics-00</a>
<br>
<br>
<br>Abstract:
<br>   This memo proposes a subprotocol that can be used to query the
<br>   performance metrics of a QUIC path.
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submi=
ssion
<br>until the htmlized version and diff are available at <a href=3D"http://=
tools.ietf.org">tools.ietf.org</a>.
<br>
<br>The IETF Secretariat
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>-- =20
<br>Kazuho Oku
<br>
<br></div></div></span></blockquote></body></html>

--001a113520ee718ec10564f39b35--


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Subject: Re: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-quic-perf-metrics-00.txt (Re: Measurement bit(s) or not)
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On 11/02/2018 17:51, Kazuho Oku wrote:
> 2018-02-11 2:34 GMT+09:00<alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com>:
>>  Then Kazuho's square signal and Mikkel's Pi (or any other consensual
>>  self-synchronizing sequence) ramification came up. They are both appealing
>>  for their elegance and low complexity on QUIC endpoints. Beyond their quirks
>>  acknowledged here, here are a few considerations for troubleshooting:
>>  (snip)
>>  Given these, a benevolent, troubleshooting-minded passive midpoint will
>>  clearly vote for the square. Now the obvious question is: is this
>>  acceptable, or deemed too easy for a Murphy, Inc. active middlebox to see
>>  upstream losses and benevolently wreak havoc by delaying packets ?
>
> Thank you for raising the question.
>
> While I think that using square wave is a neat idea, I am not so sure
> if the wavelength is correct, or if it would continue to be correct
> for the lifetime of the transport protocol. I assume that other
> patterns that have been proposed (e.g., PI, random) share the same
> weakness.

Again, these shortcomings have been acknowledged here, and could be addressed 
later, once the more general question I'm asking is settled:

  => Do "we", or do "we" not, want to disclose a signal that allows a midpoint 
observer to deduce:

	- both upstream and downstream half-RTTs (spin bit)
	- upstream losses (consensual sequence: square, Pi, fractal, whatever)

  Pros: manageability, troubleshooting
  Cons: some Murphy middlebox ossifying the Internet instead of dying in flames

Once the answer is known and agreed upon, dedicated research on the best design 
for "measurement bits" will be timely. Not before.


_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

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--001a114a9d82d4b5000564f43041
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Just to give a name to the fractal proposal: it is actually a grey code and
these have a long history of use in coding theory

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gray_code


On 11 February 2018 at 19.36.06, alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com (
alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com) wrote:

On 11/02/2018 17:51, Kazuho Oku wrote:
> 2018-02-11 2:34 GMT+09:00<alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com>:
>> Then Kazuho's square signal and Mikkel's Pi (or any other consensual
>> self-synchronizing sequence) ramification came up. They are both
appealing
>> for their elegance and low complexity on QUIC endpoints. Beyond their
quirks
>> acknowledged here, here are a few considerations for troubleshooting:
>> (snip)
>> Given these, a benevolent, troubleshooting-minded passive midpoint will
>> clearly vote for the square. Now the obvious question is: is this
>> acceptable, or deemed too easy for a Murphy, Inc. active middlebox to
see
>> upstream losses and benevolently wreak havoc by delaying packets ?
>
> Thank you for raising the question.
>
> While I think that using square wave is a neat idea, I am not so sure
> if the wavelength is correct, or if it would continue to be correct
> for the lifetime of the transport protocol. I assume that other
> patterns that have been proposed (e.g., PI, random) share the same
> weakness.

Again, these shortcomings have been acknowledged here, and could be
addressed
later, once the more general question I'm asking is settled:

=> Do "we", or do "we" not, want to disclose a signal that allows a
midpoint
observer to deduce:

- both upstream and downstream half-RTTs (spin bit)
- upstream losses (consensual sequence: square, Pi, fractal, whatever)

Pros: manageability, troubleshooting
Cons: some Murphy middlebox ossifying the Internet instead of dying in
flames

Once the answer is known and agreed upon, dedicated research on the best
design
for "measurement bits" will be timely. Not before.


_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


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--001a114a9d82d4b5000564f43041
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<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">Just to give a name =
to the fractal proposal: it is actually a grey code and these have a long h=
istory of use in coding theory</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"f=
ont-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;=
line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-fami=
ly:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-hei=
ght:auto"><a href=3D"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gray_code">https://en.wi=
kipedia.org/wiki/Gray_code</a></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"f=
ont-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;=
line-height:auto"><br></div> <br><p class=3D"airmail_on">On 11 February 201=
8 at 19.36.06, <a href=3D"mailto:alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com">alexandre.f=
errieux@orange.com</a> (<a href=3D"mailto:alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com">al=
exandre.ferrieux@orange.com</a>) wrote:</p> <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=
=3D"clean_bq"><span><div><div></div><div>On 11/02/2018 17:51, Kazuho Oku wr=
ote:
<br>&gt; 2018-02-11 2:34 GMT+09:00&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:alexandre.ferrieux@=
orange.com">alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com</a>&gt;:
<br>&gt;&gt;  Then Kazuho&#39;s square signal and Mikkel&#39;s Pi (or any o=
ther consensual
<br>&gt;&gt;  self-synchronizing sequence) ramification came up. They are b=
oth appealing
<br>&gt;&gt;  for their elegance and low complexity on QUIC endpoints. Beyo=
nd their quirks
<br>&gt;&gt;  acknowledged here, here are a few considerations for troubles=
hooting:
<br>&gt;&gt;  (snip)
<br>&gt;&gt;  Given these, a benevolent, troubleshooting-minded passive mid=
point will
<br>&gt;&gt;  clearly vote for the square. Now the obvious question is: is =
this
<br>&gt;&gt;  acceptable, or deemed too easy for a Murphy, Inc. active midd=
lebox to see
<br>&gt;&gt;  upstream losses and benevolently wreak havoc by delaying pack=
ets ?
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; Thank you for raising the question.
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; While I think that using square wave is a neat idea, I am not so s=
ure
<br>&gt; if the wavelength is correct, or if it would continue to be correc=
t
<br>&gt; for the lifetime of the transport protocol. I assume that other
<br>&gt; patterns that have been proposed (e.g., PI, random) share the same
<br>&gt; weakness.
<br>
<br>Again, these shortcomings have been acknowledged here, and could be add=
ressed =20
<br>later, once the more general question I&#39;m asking is settled:
<br>
<br>  =3D&gt; Do &quot;we&quot;, or do &quot;we&quot; not, want to disclose=
 a signal that allows a midpoint =20
<br>observer to deduce:
<br>
<br>	- both upstream and downstream half-RTTs (spin bit)
<br>	- upstream losses (consensual sequence: square, Pi, fractal, whatever)
<br>
<br>  Pros: manageability, troubleshooting
<br>  Cons: some Murphy middlebox ossifying the Internet instead of dying i=
n flames
<br>
<br>Once the answer is known and agreed upon, dedicated research on the bes=
t design =20
<br>for &quot;measurement bits&quot; will be timely. Not before.
<br>
<br>
<br>_______________________________________________________________________=
__________________________________________________
<br>
<br>Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations conf=
identielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
<br>pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez =
recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
<br>a l&#39;expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les mes=
sages electroniques etant susceptibles d&#39;alteration,
<br>Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme=
 ou falsifie. Merci.
<br>
<br>This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged=
 information that may be protected by law;
<br>they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
<br>If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and =
delete this message and its attachments.
<br>As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have b=
een modified, changed or falsified.
<br>Thank you.
<br>
<br></div></div></span></blockquote></body></html>

--001a114a9d82d4b5000564f43041--


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Subject: RE: Measurement bit(s) or not
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--001a114a9d82a45b560564f47401
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
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I already wrote this elsewhere, but the mail topic was a bit off, and I
think it might actually be a good alternative to the other approaches
balancing the simplicity of the square without the problem of having to
wait for the square half period to detect loss.

It is a fractal pattern in the form of grey code. For example an 8 bit code
that is transmitted one bit a time. Each bit represents a wave length and
changes at half the wave length. To simplify synchronisation, the same 8
bit pattern could be transmitted twice before a bit changes. This would
support half-periods of 16, 32, =E2=80=A6, 2048 packets.

In addition, there is a lot of error correcting coding theory around this
with noise analysis and maximum likelihood decoders.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gray_code
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constellation_diagram

The encoding is simple as per Wikipedia:

/* * This function converts an unsigned binary * number to reflected
binary Gray code. * * The operator >> is shift right. The operator ^
is exclusive or. */unsigned int binaryToGray(unsigned int num){
    return num ^ (num >> 1);}
/* * This function converts a reflected binary * Gray code number to a
binary number. * Each Gray code bit is exclusive-ored with all * more
significant bits. */unsigned int grayToBinary(unsigned int num){
    unsigned int mask =3D num;
    while (mask !=3D 0)
    {
        mask =3D mask >> 1;
        num =3D num ^ mask;
    }
    return num;}
/* * A more efficient version, for Gray codes of 32 or fewer bits.
*/unsigned int grayToBinary32(unsigned int num){
    num =3D num ^ (num >> 16);
    num =3D num ^ (num >> 8);
    num =3D num ^ (num >> 4);
    num =3D num ^ (num >> 2);
    num =3D num ^ (num >> 1);
    return num;}



On 10 February 2018 at 22.41.51, Lubashev, Igor (ilubashe@akamai.com) wrote=
:

I am a bit sceptical about the square. With TCP, packet trace shows loss of
any packet, except for SYN. The "square wave" whould show no loss at all
for short connections (fewer than a "wavelength" of packets). Moreover, the
square wave can only detect loss after up to the wave length of subsequent
packets has been transmitted. If there is an application pause in
transmission, loss may not become evident.

Basically, a spin bit or a bit pattern (like a square wave) may help in
troubleshooting, but it will be more uncertain and hokey than what people
come to expect of tcp. We have be very clear in acknowledging it.

-----Original Message-----
*From:* alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com [alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com]
*Received:* Saturday, 10 Feb 2018, 12:34PM
*To:* quic@ietf.org [quic@ietf.org]
*Subject:* Measurement bit(s) or not

On 07/02/2018 14:34, Brian Trammell (IETF) wrote:
 > hi Jana,
 >
 >> 3. Some sequencing information -- a few bits of the packet number
perhaps
 >> -- should be revealed (for monitoring. Number of bits TBD.)
 >
 > This is the crux of the argument. On one side we have the risk of misuse
and
 > ossification (well, not ossification -- these bits are *meant* for the
path
 > -- rather the risk that we'll figure out later that we specified the
wrong
 > thing), on the other side we have the loss of visibility into how QUIC
 > traffic interacts with the network as compared to TCP, with a side
question
 > of whether or not this visibility is really the transport layer's proble=
m
 > despite the evolution the practice of diagnostics and troubleshooting
using
 > TCP information.
 >
 > If we can come to agreement on this question, everything else falls into
 > place. I have my arguments here, but as you said, this subthread is not
the
 > place for them. :)

The crux indeed. So what about settling it first ?

With the troubleshooting hat, I can only stress the need for measurement
bits,
for the benefit of everybody, since s**t happens, networks are imperfect,
and
nifty encapsulations-with-seqnum will simply not be where you need them.

Now to the exact nature of these measurement bits:

Thanks to the detailed exchanges on this thread, it is by now clear that a
simple gapless counter, even nonzero-based and XORed, is not acceptable. Th=
e
4-bit SSN comes pretty close but is not enough when things go really wrong
(and
they will - and that's where we need the tool).

Then Kazuho's square signal and Mikkel's Pi (or any other consensual
self-synchronizing sequence) ramification came up. They are both appealing
for
their elegance and low complexity on QUIC endpoints. Beyond their quirks
acknowledged here, here are a few considerations for troubleshooting:

  (1) Since reordering is less of a concern to QUIC than to TCP, it becomes
a
secondary goal. This is nice, because the square doesn't see it, and the
self-synchronizing sequence will only tolerate a mild one, and never see it=
s
detail like cycle length etc.

  (2) There's of course a huge difference between them in complexity for th=
e
midpoint: square is trivial, Pi is hefty.

Given these, a benevolent, troubleshooting-minded passive midpoint will
clearly
vote for the square. Now the obvious question is: is this acceptable, or
deemed
too easy for a Murphy, Inc. active middlebox to see upstream losses and
benevolently wreak havoc by delaying packets ?

___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations
confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu
ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages
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Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou
falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged
information that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and
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--001a114a9d82a45b560564f47401
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">I already wrote this=
 elsewhere, but the mail topic was a bit off, and I think it might actually=
 be a good alternative to the other approaches balancing the simplicity of =
the square without the problem of having to wait for the square half period=
 to detect loss.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Hel=
vetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:au=
to"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"margin:0px">It is a fra=
ctal pattern in the form of grey code. For example an 8 bit code that is tr=
ansmitted one bit a time. Each bit represents a wave length and changes at =
half the wave length. To simplify synchronisation, the same 8 bit pattern c=
ould be transmitted twice before a bit changes. This would support half-per=
iods of 16, 32, =E2=80=A6, 2048 packets.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" =
style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"margin=
:0px">In addition, there is a lot of error correcting coding theory around =
this with noise analysis and maximum likelihood decoders.</div><div id=3D"b=
loop_customfont" style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont=
" style=3D"margin:0px"><a href=3D"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gray_code">=
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gray_code</a></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfon=
t" style=3D"margin:0px"><a href=3D"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constellat=
ion_diagram">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constellation_diagram</a></div><=
div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop=
_customfont" style=3D"margin:0px">The encoding is simple as per Wikipedia:<=
/div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div id=3D=
"bloop_customfont" style=3D"margin:0px"><pre style=3D"font-family:monospace=
,monospace;background-color:rgb(248,249,250);border:1px solid rgb(234,236,2=
40);padding:1em;white-space:pre-wrap;line-height:1.3em;font-size:14px"><spa=
n class=3D"cm" style=3D"color:rgb(64,128,128);font-style:italic">/*</span>
<span class=3D"cm" style=3D"color:rgb(64,128,128);font-style:italic"> * Thi=
s function converts an unsigned binary</span>
<span class=3D"cm" style=3D"color:rgb(64,128,128);font-style:italic"> * num=
ber to reflected binary Gray code.</span>
<span class=3D"cm" style=3D"color:rgb(64,128,128);font-style:italic"> *</sp=
an>
<span class=3D"cm" style=3D"color:rgb(64,128,128);font-style:italic"> * The=
 operator &gt;&gt; is shift right. The operator ^ is exclusive or.</span>
<span class=3D"cm" style=3D"color:rgb(64,128,128);font-style:italic"> */</s=
pan>
<span class=3D"kt" style=3D"color:rgb(176,0,64)">unsigned</span> <span clas=
s=3D"kt" style=3D"color:rgb(176,0,64)">int</span> <span class=3D"nf" style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,0,255)">binaryToGray</span><span class=3D"p">(</span><span =
class=3D"kt" style=3D"color:rgb(176,0,64)">unsigned</span> <span class=3D"k=
t" style=3D"color:rgb(176,0,64)">int</span> <span class=3D"n">num</span><sp=
an class=3D"p">)</span>
<span class=3D"p">{</span>
    <span class=3D"k" style=3D"color:rgb(0,128,0);font-weight:bold">return<=
/span> <span class=3D"n">num</span> <span class=3D"o" style=3D"color:rgb(10=
2,102,102)">^</span> <span class=3D"p">(</span><span class=3D"n">num</span>=
 <span class=3D"o" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,102)">&gt;&gt;</span> <span c=
lass=3D"mi" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,102)">1</span><span class=3D"p">);</=
span>
<span class=3D"p">}</span>

<span class=3D"cm" style=3D"color:rgb(64,128,128);font-style:italic">/*</sp=
an>
<span class=3D"cm" style=3D"color:rgb(64,128,128);font-style:italic"> * Thi=
s function converts a reflected binary</span>
<span class=3D"cm" style=3D"color:rgb(64,128,128);font-style:italic"> * Gra=
y code number to a binary number.</span>
<span class=3D"cm" style=3D"color:rgb(64,128,128);font-style:italic"> * Eac=
h Gray code bit is exclusive-ored with all</span>
<span class=3D"cm" style=3D"color:rgb(64,128,128);font-style:italic"> * mor=
e significant bits.</span>
<span class=3D"cm" style=3D"color:rgb(64,128,128);font-style:italic"> */</s=
pan>
<span class=3D"kt" style=3D"color:rgb(176,0,64)">unsigned</span> <span clas=
s=3D"kt" style=3D"color:rgb(176,0,64)">int</span> <span class=3D"nf" style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,0,255)">grayToBinary</span><span class=3D"p">(</span><span =
class=3D"kt" style=3D"color:rgb(176,0,64)">unsigned</span> <span class=3D"k=
t" style=3D"color:rgb(176,0,64)">int</span> <span class=3D"n">num</span><sp=
an class=3D"p">)</span>
<span class=3D"p">{</span>
    <span class=3D"kt" style=3D"color:rgb(176,0,64)">unsigned</span> <span =
class=3D"kt" style=3D"color:rgb(176,0,64)">int</span> <span class=3D"n">mas=
k</span> <span class=3D"o" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,102)">=3D</span> <spa=
n class=3D"n">num</span><span class=3D"p">;</span>
    <span class=3D"k" style=3D"color:rgb(0,128,0);font-weight:bold">while</=
span> <span class=3D"p">(</span><span class=3D"n">mask</span> <span class=
=3D"o" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,102)">!=3D</span> <span class=3D"mi" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(102,102,102)">0</span><span class=3D"p">)</span>
    <span class=3D"p">{</span>
        <span class=3D"n">mask</span> <span class=3D"o" style=3D"color:rgb(=
102,102,102)">=3D</span> <span class=3D"n">mask</span> <span class=3D"o" st=
yle=3D"color:rgb(102,102,102)">&gt;&gt;</span> <span class=3D"mi" style=3D"=
color:rgb(102,102,102)">1</span><span class=3D"p">;</span>
        <span class=3D"n">num</span> <span class=3D"o" style=3D"color:rgb(1=
02,102,102)">=3D</span> <span class=3D"n">num</span> <span class=3D"o" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(102,102,102)">^</span> <span class=3D"n">mask</span><span cl=
ass=3D"p">;</span>
    <span class=3D"p">}</span>
    <span class=3D"k" style=3D"color:rgb(0,128,0);font-weight:bold">return<=
/span> <span class=3D"n">num</span><span class=3D"p">;</span>
<span class=3D"p">}</span>

<span class=3D"cm" style=3D"color:rgb(64,128,128);font-style:italic">/*</sp=
an>
<span class=3D"cm" style=3D"color:rgb(64,128,128);font-style:italic"> * A m=
ore efficient version, for Gray codes of 32 or fewer bits.</span>
<span class=3D"cm" style=3D"color:rgb(64,128,128);font-style:italic"> */</s=
pan>
<span class=3D"kt" style=3D"color:rgb(176,0,64)">unsigned</span> <span clas=
s=3D"kt" style=3D"color:rgb(176,0,64)">int</span> <span class=3D"nf" style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,0,255)">grayToBinary32</span><span class=3D"p">(</span><spa=
n class=3D"kt" style=3D"color:rgb(176,0,64)">unsigned</span> <span class=3D=
"kt" style=3D"color:rgb(176,0,64)">int</span> <span class=3D"n">num</span><=
span class=3D"p">)</span>
<span class=3D"p">{</span>
    <span class=3D"n">num</span> <span class=3D"o" style=3D"color:rgb(102,1=
02,102)">=3D</span> <span class=3D"n">num</span> <span class=3D"o" style=3D=
"color:rgb(102,102,102)">^</span> <span class=3D"p">(</span><span class=3D"=
n">num</span> <span class=3D"o" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,102)">&gt;&gt;</=
span> <span class=3D"mi" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,102)">16</span><span cl=
ass=3D"p">);</span>
    <span class=3D"n">num</span> <span class=3D"o" style=3D"color:rgb(102,1=
02,102)">=3D</span> <span class=3D"n">num</span> <span class=3D"o" style=3D=
"color:rgb(102,102,102)">^</span> <span class=3D"p">(</span><span class=3D"=
n">num</span> <span class=3D"o" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,102)">&gt;&gt;</=
span> <span class=3D"mi" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,102)">8</span><span cla=
ss=3D"p">);</span>
    <span class=3D"n">num</span> <span class=3D"o" style=3D"color:rgb(102,1=
02,102)">=3D</span> <span class=3D"n">num</span> <span class=3D"o" style=3D=
"color:rgb(102,102,102)">^</span> <span class=3D"p">(</span><span class=3D"=
n">num</span> <span class=3D"o" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,102)">&gt;&gt;</=
span> <span class=3D"mi" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,102)">4</span><span cla=
ss=3D"p">);</span>
    <span class=3D"n">num</span> <span class=3D"o" style=3D"color:rgb(102,1=
02,102)">=3D</span> <span class=3D"n">num</span> <span class=3D"o" style=3D=
"color:rgb(102,102,102)">^</span> <span class=3D"p">(</span><span class=3D"=
n">num</span> <span class=3D"o" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,102)">&gt;&gt;</=
span> <span class=3D"mi" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,102)">2</span><span cla=
ss=3D"p">);</span>
    <span class=3D"n">num</span> <span class=3D"o" style=3D"color:rgb(102,1=
02,102)">=3D</span> <span class=3D"n">num</span> <span class=3D"o" style=3D=
"color:rgb(102,102,102)">^</span> <span class=3D"p">(</span><span class=3D"=
n">num</span> <span class=3D"o" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,102)">&gt;&gt;</=
span> <span class=3D"mi" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,102)">1</span><span cla=
ss=3D"p">);</span>
    <span class=3D"k" style=3D"color:rgb(0,128,0);font-weight:bold">return<=
/span> <span class=3D"n">num</span><span class=3D"p">;</span>
<span class=3D"p">}</span></pre></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D=
"margin:0px"><br></div> <br><p class=3D"airmail_on">On 10 February 2018 at =
22.41.51, Lubashev, Igor (<a href=3D"mailto:ilubashe@akamai.com">ilubashe@a=
kamai.com</a>) wrote:</p> <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq"><spa=
n><div><div></div><div>






<title></title>


<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:11pt=
;color:black">
<span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:11p=
t;color:black">
I am a bit sceptical about the square. With TCP, packet trace shows
loss of any packet, except for SYN. The &quot;square wave&quot; whould show
no loss at all for short connections (fewer than a &quot;wavelength&quot; o=
f
packets). Moreover, the square wave can only detect loss after up
to the wave length of subsequent packets has been transmitted. If
there is an application pause in transmission, loss may not become
evident.<br>
<br>
Basically, a spin bit or a bit pattern (like a square wave) may
help in troubleshooting, but it will be more uncertain and hokey
than what people come to expect of tcp. We have be very clear in
acknowledging it.<br>
<br>
<span style=3D"color:black">-----Original Message-----<br>
<b>From:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com">alexandre.fer=
rieux@orange.com</a>
[<a href=3D"mailto:alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com">alexandre.ferrieux@orange=
.com</a>]<br>
<b>Received:</b> Saturday, 10 Feb 2018, 12:34PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@ietf.org</a> [<a href=3D"m=
ailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@ietf.org</a>]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Measurement bit(s) or not<br>
<br></span></span></div>
<div class=3D"PlainText"><font size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">On=
 07/02/2018 14:34, Brian Trammell (IETF)
wrote:<br>
=C2=A0&gt; hi Jana,<br>
=C2=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; 3. Some sequencing information -- a few bits of the
packet number perhaps<br>
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; -- should be revealed (for monitoring. Number of
bits TBD.)<br>
=C2=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0&gt; This is the crux of the argument. On one side we have
the risk of misuse and<br>
=C2=A0&gt; ossification (well, not ossification -- these bits are
*meant* for the path<br>
=C2=A0&gt; -- rather the risk that we&#39;ll figure out later that we
specified the wrong<br>
=C2=A0&gt; thing), on the other side we have the loss of visibility
into how QUIC<br>
=C2=A0&gt; traffic interacts with the network as compared to TCP,
with a side question<br>
=C2=A0&gt; of whether or not this visibility is really the
transport layer&#39;s problem<br>
=C2=A0&gt; despite the evolution the practice of diagnostics and
troubleshooting using<br>
=C2=A0&gt; TCP information.<br>
=C2=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0&gt; If we can come to agreement on this question, everything
else falls into<br>
=C2=A0&gt; place. I have my arguments here, but as you said, this
subthread is not the<br>
=C2=A0&gt; place for them. :)<br>
<br>
The crux indeed. So what about settling it first ?<br>
<br>
With the troubleshooting hat, I can only stress the need for
measurement bits,<br>
for the benefit of everybody, since s**t happens, networks are
imperfect, and<br>
nifty encapsulations-with-seqnum will simply not be where you need
them.<br>
<br>
Now to the exact nature of these measurement bits:<br>
<br>
Thanks to the detailed exchanges on this thread, it is by now clear
that a<br>
simple gapless counter, even nonzero-based and XORed, is not
acceptable. The<br>
4-bit SSN comes pretty close but is not enough when things go
really wrong (and<br>
they will - and that&#39;s where we need the tool).<br>
<br>
Then Kazuho&#39;s square signal and Mikkel&#39;s Pi (or any other
consensual<br>
self-synchronizing sequence) ramification came up. They are both
appealing for<br>
their elegance and low complexity on QUIC endpoints. Beyond their
quirks<br>
acknowledged here, here are a few considerations for
troubleshooting:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 (1) Since reordering is less of a concern to QUIC than to
TCP, it becomes a<br>
secondary goal. This is nice, because the square doesn&#39;t see it,
and the<br>
self-synchronizing sequence will only tolerate a mild one, and
never see its<br>
detail like cycle length etc.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 (2) There&#39;s of course a huge difference between them in
complexity for the<br>
midpoint: square is trivial, Pi is hefty.<br>
<br>
Given these, a benevolent, troubleshooting-minded passive midpoint
will clearly<br>
vote for the square. Now the obvious question is: is this
acceptable, or deemed<br>
too easy for a Murphy, Inc. active middlebox to see upstream losses
and<br>
benevolently wreak havoc by delaying packets ?<br>
<br>
___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________<br>

<br>
Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations
confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc<br>
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous
avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler<br>
a l&#39;expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les
messages electroniques etant susceptibles d&#39;alteration,<br>
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere,
deforme ou falsifie. Merci.<br>
<br>
This message and its attachments may contain confidential or
privileged information that may be protected by law;<br>
they should not be distributed, used or copied without
authorisation.<br>
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender
and delete this message and its attachments.<br>
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that
have been modified, changed or falsified.<br>
Thank you.<br>
<br></span></font></div>


</div></div></span></blockquote></body></html>

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Subject: RE: Measurement bit(s) or not
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Actually, since the half-period is 16*2048 so loss can be detected up to
32K packets, or typically 32MB worth of data. At the same time loss can be
detected within the first 16 bytes by trivially comparing the first 8 bits
with the next 8 bits. If these are not the same, something is off.

But it is perfect because all bits could be zero.

To improve on this, each transmitted bit could be spread over two packets,
0, 1 for sending a reset bit, and 1, 0 for sending a set bit. If we then
drop repeating the 8 bit pattern, the shortest half-period remains at 16
packets since an 8-bit Gray code requires 16 packets.

Now we can detect a single loss or swap already after two packets, although
this is probably not interesting since reordering could happen already in
multiple send queues.

On 11 February 2018 at 20.06.14, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen (mikkelf=
j@gmail.com)
wrote:

I already wrote this elsewhere, but the mail topic was a bit off, and I
think it might actually be a good alternative to the other approaches
balancing the simplicity of the square without the problem of having to
wait for the square half period to detect loss.

It is a fractal pattern in the form of grey code. For example an 8 bit code
that is transmitted one bit a time. Each bit represents a wave length and
changes at half the wave length. To simplify synchronisation, the same 8
bit pattern could be transmitted twice before a bit changes. This would
support half-periods of 16, 32, =E2=80=A6, 2048 packets.

In addition, there is a lot of error correcting coding theory around this
with noise analysis and maximum likelihood decoders.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gray_code
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constellation_diagram

The encoding is simple as per Wikipedia:

/* * This function converts an unsigned binary * number to reflected
binary Gray code. * * The operator >> is shift right. The operator ^
is exclusive or. */unsigned int binaryToGray(unsigned int num){
    return num ^ (num >> 1);}
/* * This function converts a reflected binary * Gray code number to a
binary number. * Each Gray code bit is exclusive-ored with all * more
significant bits. */unsigned int grayToBinary(unsigned int num){
    unsigned int mask =3D num;
    while (mask !=3D 0)
    {
        mask =3D mask >> 1;
        num =3D num ^ mask;
    }
    return num;}
/* * A more efficient version, for Gray codes of 32 or fewer bits.
*/unsigned int grayToBinary32(unsigned int num){
    num =3D num ^ (num >> 16);
    num =3D num ^ (num >> 8);
    num =3D num ^ (num >> 4);
    num =3D num ^ (num >> 2);
    num =3D num ^ (num >> 1);
    return num;}



On 10 February 2018 at 22.41.51, Lubashev, Igor (ilubashe@akamai.com) wrote=
:

I am a bit sceptical about the square. With TCP, packet trace shows loss of
any packet, except for SYN. The "square wave" whould show no loss at all
for short connections (fewer than a "wavelength" of packets). Moreover, the
square wave can only detect loss after up to the wave length of subsequent
packets has been transmitted. If there is an application pause in
transmission, loss may not become evident.

Basically, a spin bit or a bit pattern (like a square wave) may help in
troubleshooting, but it will be more uncertain and hokey than what people
come to expect of tcp. We have be very clear in acknowledging it.

-----Original Message-----
*From:* alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com [alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com]
*Received:* Saturday, 10 Feb 2018, 12:34PM
*To:* quic@ietf.org [quic@ietf.org]
*Subject:* Measurement bit(s) or not

On 07/02/2018 14:34, Brian Trammell (IETF) wrote:
 > hi Jana,
 >
 >> 3. Some sequencing information -- a few bits of the packet number
perhaps
 >> -- should be revealed (for monitoring. Number of bits TBD.)
 >
 > This is the crux of the argument. On one side we have the risk of misuse
and
 > ossification (well, not ossification -- these bits are *meant* for the
path
 > -- rather the risk that we'll figure out later that we specified the
wrong
 > thing), on the other side we have the loss of visibility into how QUIC
 > traffic interacts with the network as compared to TCP, with a side
question
 > of whether or not this visibility is really the transport layer's proble=
m
 > despite the evolution the practice of diagnostics and troubleshooting
using
 > TCP information.
 >
 > If we can come to agreement on this question, everything else falls into
 > place. I have my arguments here, but as you said, this subthread is not
the
 > place for them. :)

The crux indeed. So what about settling it first ?

With the troubleshooting hat, I can only stress the need for measurement
bits,
for the benefit of everybody, since s**t happens, networks are imperfect,
and
nifty encapsulations-with-seqnum will simply not be where you need them.

Now to the exact nature of these measurement bits:

Thanks to the detailed exchanges on this thread, it is by now clear that a
simple gapless counter, even nonzero-based and XORed, is not acceptable. Th=
e
4-bit SSN comes pretty close but is not enough when things go really wrong
(and
they will - and that's where we need the tool).

Then Kazuho's square signal and Mikkel's Pi (or any other consensual
self-synchronizing sequence) ramification came up. They are both appealing
for
their elegance and low complexity on QUIC endpoints. Beyond their quirks
acknowledged here, here are a few considerations for troubleshooting:

  (1) Since reordering is less of a concern to QUIC than to TCP, it becomes
a
secondary goal. This is nice, because the square doesn't see it, and the
self-synchronizing sequence will only tolerate a mild one, and never see it=
s
detail like cycle length etc.

  (2) There's of course a huge difference between them in complexity for th=
e
midpoint: square is trivial, Pi is hefty.

Given these, a benevolent, troubleshooting-minded passive midpoint will
clearly
vote for the square. Now the obvious question is: is this acceptable, or
deemed
too easy for a Murphy, Inc. active middlebox to see upstream losses and
benevolently wreak havoc by delaying packets ?

___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________

Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations
confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu
ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages
electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou
falsifie. Merci.

This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged
information that may be protected by law;
they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and
delete this message and its attachments.
As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been
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<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">Actually, since the =
half-period is 16*2048 so loss can be detected up to 32K packets, or typica=
lly 32MB worth of data. At the same time loss can be detected within the fi=
rst 16 bytes by trivially comparing the first 8 bits with the next 8 bits. =
If these are not the same, something is off.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfo=
nt" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.=
0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" styl=
e=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margi=
n:0px;line-height:auto">But it is perfect because all bits could be zero.</=
div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-=
size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div=
 id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13p=
x;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">To improve on this, ea=
ch transmitted bit could be spread over two packets, 0, 1 for sending a res=
et bit, and 1, 0 for sending a set bit. If we then drop repeating the 8 bit=
 pattern, the shortest half-period remains at 16 packets since an 8-bit Gra=
y code requires 16 packets.</div> <div><br></div>Now we can detect a single=
 loss or swap already after two packets, although this is probably not inte=
resting since reordering could happen already in multiple send queues.<br><=
p class=3D"airmail_on">On 11 February 2018 at 20.06.14, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e =
J=C3=B8rgensen (<a href=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com">mikkelfj@gmail.com</a=
>) wrote:</p> <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq"><span><div style=
=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><div></div><div>




<title></title>



<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
I already wrote this elsewhere, but the mail topic was a bit off,
and I think it might actually be a good alternative to the other
approaches balancing the simplicity of the square without the
problem of having to wait for the square half period to detect
loss.</div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<br></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"margin:0px">It is a fractal
pattern in the form of grey code. For example an 8 bit code that is
transmitted one bit a time. Each bit represents a wave length and
changes at half the wave length. To simplify synchronisation, the
same 8 bit pattern could be transmitted twice before a bit changes.
This would support half-periods of 16, 32, =E2=80=A6, 2048 packets.</div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"margin:0px">In addition, there
is a lot of error correcting coding theory around this with noise
analysis and maximum likelihood decoders.</div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"margin:0px"><a href=3D"https://en.wik=
ipedia.org/wiki/Gray_code">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gray_code</a></div=
>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"margin:0px"><a href=3D"https://en.wik=
ipedia.org/wiki/Constellation_diagram">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conste=
llation_diagram</a></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"margin:0px">The encoding is
simple as per Wikipedia:</div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"margin:0px">
<pre style=3D"font-family:monospace,monospace;background-color:rgb(248,249,=
250);border:1px solid rgb(234,236,240);padding:1em;white-space:pre-wrap;lin=
e-height:1.3em;font-size:14px"><span class=3D"cm" style=3D"color:rgb(64,128=
,128);font-style:italic">/*</span>
<span class=3D"cm" style=3D"color:rgb(64,128,128);font-style:italic"> * Thi=
s function converts an unsigned binary</span>
<span class=3D"cm" style=3D"color:rgb(64,128,128);font-style:italic"> * num=
ber to reflected binary Gray code.</span>
<span class=3D"cm" style=3D"color:rgb(64,128,128);font-style:italic"> *</sp=
an>
<span class=3D"cm" style=3D"color:rgb(64,128,128);font-style:italic"> * The=
 operator &gt;&gt; is shift right. The operator ^ is exclusive or.</span>
<span class=3D"cm" style=3D"color:rgb(64,128,128);font-style:italic"> */</s=
pan>
<span class=3D"kt" style=3D"color:rgb(176,0,64)">unsigned</span> <span clas=
s=3D"kt" style=3D"color:rgb(176,0,64)">int</span> <span class=3D"nf" style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,0,255)">binaryToGray</span><span class=3D"p">(</span><span =
class=3D"kt" style=3D"color:rgb(176,0,64)">unsigned</span> <span class=3D"k=
t" style=3D"color:rgb(176,0,64)">int</span> <span class=3D"n">num</span><sp=
an class=3D"p">)</span>
<span class=3D"p">{</span>
    <span class=3D"k" style=3D"color:rgb(0,128,0);font-weight:bold">return<=
/span> <span class=3D"n">num</span> <span class=3D"o" style=3D"color:rgb(10=
2,102,102)">^</span> <span class=3D"p">(</span><span class=3D"n">num</span>=
 <span class=3D"o" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,102)">&gt;&gt;</span> <span c=
lass=3D"mi" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,102)">1</span><span class=3D"p">);</=
span>
<span class=3D"p">}</span>

<span class=3D"cm" style=3D"color:rgb(64,128,128);font-style:italic">/*</sp=
an>
<span class=3D"cm" style=3D"color:rgb(64,128,128);font-style:italic"> * Thi=
s function converts a reflected binary</span>
<span class=3D"cm" style=3D"color:rgb(64,128,128);font-style:italic"> * Gra=
y code number to a binary number.</span>
<span class=3D"cm" style=3D"color:rgb(64,128,128);font-style:italic"> * Eac=
h Gray code bit is exclusive-ored with all</span>
<span class=3D"cm" style=3D"color:rgb(64,128,128);font-style:italic"> * mor=
e significant bits.</span>
<span class=3D"cm" style=3D"color:rgb(64,128,128);font-style:italic"> */</s=
pan>
<span class=3D"kt" style=3D"color:rgb(176,0,64)">unsigned</span> <span clas=
s=3D"kt" style=3D"color:rgb(176,0,64)">int</span> <span class=3D"nf" style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,0,255)">grayToBinary</span><span class=3D"p">(</span><span =
class=3D"kt" style=3D"color:rgb(176,0,64)">unsigned</span> <span class=3D"k=
t" style=3D"color:rgb(176,0,64)">int</span> <span class=3D"n">num</span><sp=
an class=3D"p">)</span>
<span class=3D"p">{</span>
    <span class=3D"kt" style=3D"color:rgb(176,0,64)">unsigned</span> <span =
class=3D"kt" style=3D"color:rgb(176,0,64)">int</span> <span class=3D"n">mas=
k</span> <span class=3D"o" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,102)">=3D</span> <spa=
n class=3D"n">num</span><span class=3D"p">;</span>
    <span class=3D"k" style=3D"color:rgb(0,128,0);font-weight:bold">while</=
span> <span class=3D"p">(</span><span class=3D"n">mask</span> <span class=
=3D"o" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,102)">!=3D</span> <span class=3D"mi" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(102,102,102)">0</span><span class=3D"p">)</span>
    <span class=3D"p">{</span>
        <span class=3D"n">mask</span> <span class=3D"o" style=3D"color:rgb(=
102,102,102)">=3D</span> <span class=3D"n">mask</span> <span class=3D"o" st=
yle=3D"color:rgb(102,102,102)">&gt;&gt;</span> <span class=3D"mi" style=3D"=
color:rgb(102,102,102)">1</span><span class=3D"p">;</span>
        <span class=3D"n">num</span> <span class=3D"o" style=3D"color:rgb(1=
02,102,102)">=3D</span> <span class=3D"n">num</span> <span class=3D"o" styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(102,102,102)">^</span> <span class=3D"n">mask</span><span cl=
ass=3D"p">;</span>
    <span class=3D"p">}</span>
    <span class=3D"k" style=3D"color:rgb(0,128,0);font-weight:bold">return<=
/span> <span class=3D"n">num</span><span class=3D"p">;</span>
<span class=3D"p">}</span>

<span class=3D"cm" style=3D"color:rgb(64,128,128);font-style:italic">/*</sp=
an>
<span class=3D"cm" style=3D"color:rgb(64,128,128);font-style:italic"> * A m=
ore efficient version, for Gray codes of 32 or fewer bits.</span>
<span class=3D"cm" style=3D"color:rgb(64,128,128);font-style:italic"> */</s=
pan>
<span class=3D"kt" style=3D"color:rgb(176,0,64)">unsigned</span> <span clas=
s=3D"kt" style=3D"color:rgb(176,0,64)">int</span> <span class=3D"nf" style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,0,255)">grayToBinary32</span><span class=3D"p">(</span><spa=
n class=3D"kt" style=3D"color:rgb(176,0,64)">unsigned</span> <span class=3D=
"kt" style=3D"color:rgb(176,0,64)">int</span> <span class=3D"n">num</span><=
span class=3D"p">)</span>
<span class=3D"p">{</span>
    <span class=3D"n">num</span> <span class=3D"o" style=3D"color:rgb(102,1=
02,102)">=3D</span> <span class=3D"n">num</span> <span class=3D"o" style=3D=
"color:rgb(102,102,102)">^</span> <span class=3D"p">(</span><span class=3D"=
n">num</span> <span class=3D"o" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,102)">&gt;&gt;</=
span> <span class=3D"mi" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,102)">16</span><span cl=
ass=3D"p">);</span>
    <span class=3D"n">num</span> <span class=3D"o" style=3D"color:rgb(102,1=
02,102)">=3D</span> <span class=3D"n">num</span> <span class=3D"o" style=3D=
"color:rgb(102,102,102)">^</span> <span class=3D"p">(</span><span class=3D"=
n">num</span> <span class=3D"o" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,102)">&gt;&gt;</=
span> <span class=3D"mi" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,102)">8</span><span cla=
ss=3D"p">);</span>
    <span class=3D"n">num</span> <span class=3D"o" style=3D"color:rgb(102,1=
02,102)">=3D</span> <span class=3D"n">num</span> <span class=3D"o" style=3D=
"color:rgb(102,102,102)">^</span> <span class=3D"p">(</span><span class=3D"=
n">num</span> <span class=3D"o" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,102)">&gt;&gt;</=
span> <span class=3D"mi" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,102)">4</span><span cla=
ss=3D"p">);</span>
    <span class=3D"n">num</span> <span class=3D"o" style=3D"color:rgb(102,1=
02,102)">=3D</span> <span class=3D"n">num</span> <span class=3D"o" style=3D=
"color:rgb(102,102,102)">^</span> <span class=3D"p">(</span><span class=3D"=
n">num</span> <span class=3D"o" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,102)">&gt;&gt;</=
span> <span class=3D"mi" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,102)">2</span><span cla=
ss=3D"p">);</span>
    <span class=3D"n">num</span> <span class=3D"o" style=3D"color:rgb(102,1=
02,102)">=3D</span> <span class=3D"n">num</span> <span class=3D"o" style=3D=
"color:rgb(102,102,102)">^</span> <span class=3D"p">(</span><span class=3D"=
n">num</span> <span class=3D"o" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,102)">&gt;&gt;</=
span> <span class=3D"mi" style=3D"color:rgb(102,102,102)">1</span><span cla=
ss=3D"p">);</span>
    <span class=3D"k" style=3D"color:rgb(0,128,0);font-weight:bold">return<=
/span> <span class=3D"n">num</span><span class=3D"p">;</span>
<span class=3D"p">}</span></pre></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div>
<br>
<p class=3D"airmail_on">On 10 February 2018 at 22.41.51, Lubashev,
Igor (<a href=3D"mailto:ilubashe@akamai.com">ilubashe@akamai.com</a>)
wrote:</p>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq">
<div>
<div><span></span>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:11pt=
;color:black">
<span><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-si=
ze:11pt;color:black">
I am a bit sceptical about the square. With TCP, packet trace shows
loss of any packet, except for SYN. The &quot;square wave&quot; whould show
no loss at all for short connections (fewer than a &quot;wavelength&quot; o=
f
packets). Moreover, the square wave can only detect loss after up
to the wave length of subsequent packets has been transmitted. If
there is an application pause in transmission, loss may not become
evident.<br>
<br>
Basically, a spin bit or a bit pattern (like a square wave) may
help in troubleshooting, but it will be more uncertain and hokey
than what people come to expect of tcp. We have be very clear in
acknowledging it.<br>
<br>
<span style=3D"color:black">-----Original Message-----<br>
<b>From:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com">alexandre.fer=
rieux@orange.com</a>
[<a href=3D"mailto:alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com">alexandre.ferrieux@orange=
.com</a>]<br>
<b>Received:</b> Saturday, 10 Feb 2018, 12:34PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@ietf.org</a> [<a href=3D"m=
ailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@ietf.org</a>]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Measurement bit(s) or not<br>
<br></span></span></span></div>
<div class=3D"PlainText"><font size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt">On=
 07/02/2018 14:34, Brian Trammell (IETF)
wrote:<br>
=C2=A0&gt; hi Jana,<br>
=C2=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; 3. Some sequencing information -- a few bits of the
packet number perhaps<br>
=C2=A0&gt;&gt; -- should be revealed (for monitoring. Number of
bits TBD.)<br>
=C2=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0&gt; This is the crux of the argument. On one side we have
the risk of misuse and<br>
=C2=A0&gt; ossification (well, not ossification -- these bits are
*meant* for the path<br>
=C2=A0&gt; -- rather the risk that we&#39;ll figure out later that we
specified the wrong<br>
=C2=A0&gt; thing), on the other side we have the loss of visibility
into how QUIC<br>
=C2=A0&gt; traffic interacts with the network as compared to TCP,
with a side question<br>
=C2=A0&gt; of whether or not this visibility is really the
transport layer&#39;s problem<br>
=C2=A0&gt; despite the evolution the practice of diagnostics and
troubleshooting using<br>
=C2=A0&gt; TCP information.<br>
=C2=A0&gt;<br>
=C2=A0&gt; If we can come to agreement on this question, everything
else falls into<br>
=C2=A0&gt; place. I have my arguments here, but as you said, this
subthread is not the<br>
=C2=A0&gt; place for them. :)<br>
<br>
The crux indeed. So what about settling it first ?<br>
<br>
With the troubleshooting hat, I can only stress the need for
measurement bits,<br>
for the benefit of everybody, since s**t happens, networks are
imperfect, and<br>
nifty encapsulations-with-seqnum will simply not be where you need
them.<br>
<br>
Now to the exact nature of these measurement bits:<br>
<br>
Thanks to the detailed exchanges on this thread, it is by now clear
that a<br>
simple gapless counter, even nonzero-based and XORed, is not
acceptable. The<br>
4-bit SSN comes pretty close but is not enough when things go
really wrong (and<br>
they will - and that&#39;s where we need the tool).<br>
<br>
Then Kazuho&#39;s square signal and Mikkel&#39;s Pi (or any other
consensual<br>
self-synchronizing sequence) ramification came up. They are both
appealing for<br>
their elegance and low complexity on QUIC endpoints. Beyond their
quirks<br>
acknowledged here, here are a few considerations for
troubleshooting:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 (1) Since reordering is less of a concern to QUIC than to
TCP, it becomes a<br>
secondary goal. This is nice, because the square doesn&#39;t see it,
and the<br>
self-synchronizing sequence will only tolerate a mild one, and
never see its<br>
detail like cycle length etc.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 (2) There&#39;s of course a huge difference between them in
complexity for the<br>
midpoint: square is trivial, Pi is hefty.<br>
<br>
Given these, a benevolent, troubleshooting-minded passive midpoint
will clearly<br>
vote for the square. Now the obvious question is: is this
acceptable, or deemed<br>
too easy for a Murphy, Inc. active middlebox to see upstream losses
and<br>
benevolently wreak havoc by delaying packets ?<br>
<br>
___________________________________________________________________________=
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</div>
</div>
</blockquote>


</div></div></span></blockquote></body></html>

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From: Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 06:12:57 +0900
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Subject: Re: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-quic-perf-metrics-00.txt (Re: Measurement bit(s) or not)
To: =?UTF-8?Q?Mikkel_Fahn=C3=B8e_J=C3=B8rgensen?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>
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Hi Mikkel,

Thank you for the response. Please see my comments in-line.

2018-02-12 3:05 GMT+09:00 Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen <mikkelfj@gmail=
.com>:
> I need to read it more closely to understand the finer details, but my
> immediate reaction is that I do not like this at all.
>
> It appears to add unnecessary complication and there could be a host of
> hidden security issues. The basic fact that someone other than the endpoi=
nts
> can affect the traffic can lead to all sorts of issues and the informatio=
n
> transmitted might be abused in a number of ways, for example to learn abo=
ut
> the kind of traffic being sent, the internal layout of a subnetwork by
> leaking presence of other middleware, the OS and applications in use etc.

That is generally true.

But I am not sure why giving the option to the server to expose the
values being listed (# of packets sent, lost, rtt, number of lost
packets between the packets that the on-path device has received) is a
concern.

They are the stats that can be collected by observing a TCP connection.

Note that in the proposed approach, the exposure only happens if the
server wants to expose them, and the server can choose what to expose.
I think that this is a good thing in terms of privacy concern,
compared to unconditionally using some bits to expose information that
can be collected by a passible observer.

>
> I much prefer a simple no-nonsense solution over trying to handle protoco=
l
> lifetime variations. The QUIC protocol could fix issues in new versions a=
nd
> until then a simple predictable signal should suffice, even if it isn=E2=
=80=99t
> perfect.

I think that I have a different goal here.

I want to provide network operators a good set of tools that they can
use for diagnosing issues of QUIC v1. I do not want to see people not
using QUIC due to the network operator not being diagnose and fix the
issues.

We might come up with a good signal encoded on each packet, as we
define multiple versions of QUIC. But that means spending multiple
years (if not multiple decades). I am not sure if I want to wait that
long.

That is the motive behind my proposal of using a subprotocol that can
be optionally implemented by a server and an on-path observer, and
that also can evolve independently from QUIC.

>  This also makes middleware simpler, since a signal is always
> present in a predictable manner.
>
> We could have some fractal square waves to deal by having a short repeati=
ng
> signal that periodically changes at different wave lengths, e.g. a a
> repeating 8 bit pattern where each bit is flipped at the period of the wa=
ve
> length it represents. That ought to be enough. The pattern repeats every =
8
> packets. The wave lengths could be 16, 32, 64, 128,  256, 512, 1024, 2048=
 so
> that same 8 bits are always transmitted twice before a bit changes which
> should help synchronise it. It might not be perfect, but it ought to be
> sufficient.
>
> I=E2=80=99m also starting to think that just exposing a sequential counte=
r per path
> is much simpler even if it leads to ossification - see segment packet num=
ber
> proposal https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1105
>
>
>
> Kind Regards,
> Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen
>
>
> On 11 February 2018 at 17.51.37, Kazuho Oku (kazuhooku@gmail.com) wrote:
>
> 2018-02-11 2:34 GMT+09:00 <alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com>:
>> Then Kazuho's square signal and Mikkel's Pi (or any other consensual
>> self-synchronizing sequence) ramification came up. They are both appeali=
ng
>> for their elegance and low complexity on QUIC endpoints. Beyond their
>> quirks
>> acknowledged here, here are a few considerations for troubleshooting:
>> (snip)
>> Given these, a benevolent, troubleshooting-minded passive midpoint will
>> clearly vote for the square. Now the obvious question is: is this
>> acceptable, or deemed too easy for a Murphy, Inc. active middlebox to se=
e
>> upstream losses and benevolently wreak havoc by delaying packets ?
>
> Thank you for raising the question.
>
> While I think that using square wave is a neat idea, I am not so sure
> if the wavelength is correct, or if it would continue to be correct
> for the lifetime of the transport protocol. I assume that other
> patterns that have been proposed (e.g., PI, random) share the same
> weakness.
>
> Therefore, I have written a proposal of a very different approach,
> which is the following I-D.
>
> Performance Metrics Subprotocol for QUIC
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kazuho-quic-perf-metrics/
>
> The I-D proposes to add a subprotocol that is used between an on-path
> observer and the QUIC server to obtain the performance metrics. At the
> latency of 1 RTT, the subprotocol can observe accurate upstream
> loss/reorder rate, as well as SRTT / RTTVAR.
>
> I believe that it is not difficult to implement on the server-side
> (please refer to section 4). Client needs no change.
>
> Since the proposed approach does not hard-code any information for
> observation on the wire, the hard part of the design issue goes away.
> We can adjust what (and how) to observe independently from the QUIC
> transport. I think that this is not only a win in terms of design but
> also might have positive effect on moving the standardization process
> forward, since we would no longer be constrained by the discussion of
> what should be observable "on-the-wire."
>
> Privacy concern regarding observation becomes minor, since observation
> becomes "observable" and deniable by an endpoint.
>
> Although SRTT / RTTVAR is observable, I am not sure if it can be used
> to replace the Spin Bit proposal. It depends on how often and how fast
> an observer needs to see the metrics. Primary target of my proposal is
> to help diagnosing issues.
>
> Please let me know what you think.
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
> Date: 2018-02-12 1:43 GMT+09:00
> Subject: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-quic-perf-metrics-00.t=
xt
> To: Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>
>
>
>
> A new version of I-D, draft-kazuho-quic-perf-metrics-00.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Kazuho Oku and posted to the
> IETF repository.
>
> Name: draft-kazuho-quic-perf-metrics
> Revision: 00
> Title: Performance Metrics Subprotocol for QUIC
> Document date: 2018-02-12
> Group: Individual Submission
> Pages: 8
> URL:
> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-kazuho-quic-perf-metrics-00.tx=
t
> Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kazuho-quic-perf-metrics/
> Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kazuho-quic-perf-metrics-00
> Htmlized:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-kazuho-quic-perf-metrics-00
>
>
> Abstract:
> This memo proposes a subprotocol that can be used to query the
> performance metrics of a QUIC path.
>
>
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss=
ion
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>
> The IETF Secretariat
>
>
>
> --
> Kazuho Oku
>



--=20
Kazuho Oku


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From: Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 06:32:24 +0900
Message-ID: <CANatvzyDS7h=p-frao94jS09_WA41ePon3kO-7onuZ77_DorBw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-quic-perf-metrics-00.txt (Re: Measurement bit(s) or not)
To: Lili Peaudchien <alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com>
Cc: IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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2018-02-12 3:36 GMT+09:00  <alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com>:
> On 11/02/2018 17:51, Kazuho Oku wrote:
>>
>> 2018-02-11 2:34 GMT+09:00<alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com>:
>>>
>>>  Then Kazuho's square signal and Mikkel's Pi (or any other consensual
>>>  self-synchronizing sequence) ramification came up. They are both
>>> appealing
>>>  for their elegance and low complexity on QUIC endpoints. Beyond their
>>> quirks
>>>  acknowledged here, here are a few considerations for troubleshooting:
>>>  (snip)
>>>  Given these, a benevolent, troubleshooting-minded passive midpoint will
>>>  clearly vote for the square. Now the obvious question is: is this
>>>  acceptable, or deemed too easy for a Murphy, Inc. active middlebox to
>>> see
>>>  upstream losses and benevolently wreak havoc by delaying packets ?
>>
>>
>> Thank you for raising the question.
>>
>> While I think that using square wave is a neat idea, I am not so sure
>> if the wavelength is correct, or if it would continue to be correct
>> for the lifetime of the transport protocol. I assume that other
>> patterns that have been proposed (e.g., PI, random) share the same
>> weakness.
>
>
> Again, these shortcomings have been acknowledged here, and could be
> addressed later, once the more general question I'm asking is settled:
>
>  => Do "we", or do "we" not, want to disclose a signal that allows a
> midpoint observer to deduce:
>
>         - both upstream and downstream half-RTTs (spin bit)
>         - upstream losses (consensual sequence: square, Pi, fractal,
> whatever)
>
>  Pros: manageability, troubleshooting
>  Cons: some Murphy middlebox ossifying the Internet instead of dying in
> flames
>
> Once the answer is known and agreed upon, dedicated research on the best
> design for "measurement bits" will be timely. Not before.

Hi Lili, thank you for your response.

While I like the orderly approach that you propose, I might also argue
that "if" we want to disclose a signal to observers might depend on
"how" the signal looks like.

And to me it seemed that, until now, we have shared a hidden premise
that the observation is a passive action.

But as I stated in my I-D, it is possible to define the observation
scheme as a request-response protocol.

The two (i.e. passive observation and use of request-response protocol
to obtain the metrics) have very different characteristics; something
that we might want to consider before making the decision.

That it one of the reasons behind my submitting the I-D at this moment.

>
>
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-- 
Kazuho Oku


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From: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2018 16:49:45 -0500
Message-ID: <CAKcm_gPpUj1YstNwLYvCuMEguUmgZYhwP7oQp8ENC0OPKLJGyg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: The Recovery Period
To: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
Cc: Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com>, Patrick McManus <pmcmanus@mozilla.com>, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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PR sent: https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1106

On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 5:20 PM, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Ian already did.  I think that putting that in the draft would be a good
> idea.
>
> On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 9:03 AM, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com> wrote:
> > Suggest text if you think it can be made better!
> >
> > On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 12:24 PM, Patrick McManus <pmcmanus@mozilla.com>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> you're right - its ok. I missed the "when a larger" part (reading it as
> >> "when it is recovered").
> >
> >
>

--94eb2c0621dc9f4a390564f6be1f
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<div dir=3D"ltr">PR sent:=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-dr=
afts/pull/1106">https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1106</a></div><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Feb 9, 2018=
 at 5:20 PM, Martin Thomson <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.=
thomson@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">martin.thomson@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span=
> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Ian already did.=C2=A0 I think t=
hat putting that in the draft would be a good idea.<br>
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 9:03 AM, Jana Iyengar &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jri@goo=
gle.com">jri@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; Suggest text if you think it can be made better!<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 12:24 PM, Patrick McManus &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:pmcmanus@mozilla.com">pmcmanus@mozilla.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; you&#39;re right - its ok. I missed the &quot;when a larger&quot; =
part (reading it as<br>
&gt;&gt; &quot;when it is recovered&quot;).<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

--94eb2c0621dc9f4a390564f6be1f--


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On 11/02/2018 22:32, Kazuho Oku wrote:
> 2018-02-12 3:36 GMT+09:00<alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com>:
>>
>>   =>  Do "we", or do "we" not, want to disclose a signal that allows a
>>  midpoint observer to deduce:
>>
>>          - both upstream and downstream half-RTTs (spin bit)
>>          - upstream losses (consensual sequence: square, Pi, fractal,
>>  whatever)
>>
>>   Pros: manageability, troubleshooting
>>   Cons: some Murphy middlebox ossifying the Internet instead of dying in
>>  flames
>>
>>  Once the answer is known and agreed upon, dedicated research on the best
>>  design for "measurement bits" will be timely. Not before.
>
> While I like the orderly approach that you propose, I might also argue
> that "if" we want to disclose a signal to observers might depend on
> "how" the signal looks like.
>
> And to me it seemed that, until now, we have shared a hidden premise
> that the observation is a passive action.
>
> But as I stated in my I-D, it is possible to define the observation
> scheme as a request-response protocol.

Well, from doing network troubleshooting every day, I can tell you that passive 
analysis is enormously superior to active one:
  - you (midpoint) may be too far and too untrusted from the server to request 
any debug info from it (which is wht your protocol is about)
  - you may not know in advance which connection will display the problem of 
interest, and hence need to request debug for many of them
  - the problem may occur early in the connection's life, and the debug request 
may come too late
  - this simply doesn't scale up: you cannot do stats unless you request really 
too much debug info (and may be flagged by the server)
  - the potential for threats coming through the debug request channel is unknown.

For this reason, please let us first see what is acceptable for a passive 
measurement signal (including the spin bit).




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From: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>
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Subject: Re: The Recovery Period
To: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
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And I should add, that in one case, there was a bug in the pseudocode where
it should have been <= and instead was <.

On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 4:49 PM, Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com> wrote:

> PR sent: https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1106
>
> On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 5:20 PM, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Ian already did.  I think that putting that in the draft would be a good
>> idea.
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 9:03 AM, Jana Iyengar <jri@google.com> wrote:
>> > Suggest text if you think it can be made better!
>> >
>> > On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 12:24 PM, Patrick McManus <pmcmanus@mozilla.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> you're right - its ok. I missed the "when a larger" part (reading it as
>> >> "when it is recovered").
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">And I should add, that in one case, there was a bug in the=
 pseudocode where it should have been &lt;=3D and instead was &lt;.</div><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Feb 11, 201=
8 at 4:49 PM, Ian Swett <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ianswett@go=
ogle.com" target=3D"_blank">ianswett@google.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px =
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">PR sent:=C2=A0<a href=3D"http=
s://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1106" target=3D"_blank">https://gith=
ub.com/<wbr>quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1106</a></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><di=
v class=3D"h5"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On=
 Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 5:20 PM, Martin Thomson <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:martin.thomson@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">martin.thomson@gmail=
.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Ian already di=
d.=C2=A0 I think that putting that in the draft would be a good idea.<br>
<div class=3D"m_-6173601810284472211HOEnZb"><div class=3D"m_-61736018102844=
72211h5"><br>
On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 9:03 AM, Jana Iyengar &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jri@goo=
gle.com" target=3D"_blank">jri@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; Suggest text if you think it can be made better!<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 12:24 PM, Patrick McManus &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:pmcmanus@mozilla.com" target=3D"_blank">pmcmanus@mozilla.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; you&#39;re right - its ok. I missed the &quot;when a larger&quot; =
part (reading it as<br>
&gt;&gt; &quot;when it is recovered&quot;).<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

--f4f5e80671984188060564f6c26c--


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From: "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge)" <thomas.fossati@nokia.com>
To: Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
CC: "alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com" <alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com>, "Fossati,  Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge)" <thomas.fossati@nokia.com>
Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-quic-perf-metrics-00.txt (Re: Measurement bit(s) or not)
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From nobody Sun Feb 11 22:12:00 2018
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From: "Roni Even (A)" <roni.even@huawei.com>
To: Alexandre Ferrieux <alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com>, Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>
CC: IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-quic-perf-metrics-00.txt (Re: Measurement bit(s) or not)
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+1
This is not monitoring  it can serve to get the statistics of a call/sessio=
n and this total session information is better served using for example SNM=
P or similar management protocol and not QUIC
Roni

-----Original Message-----
From: QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of alexandre.ferrieux@o=
range.com
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2018 11:50 PM
To: Kazuho Oku
Cc: IETF QUIC WG
Subject: Re: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-quic-perf-metri=
cs-00.txt (Re: Measurement bit(s) or not)

On 11/02/2018 22:32, Kazuho Oku wrote:
> 2018-02-12 3:36 GMT+09:00<alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com>:
>>
>>   =3D>  Do "we", or do "we" not, want to disclose a signal that allows=20
>> a  midpoint observer to deduce:
>>
>>          - both upstream and downstream half-RTTs (spin bit)
>>          - upstream losses (consensual sequence: square, Pi, fractal,
>>  whatever)
>>
>>   Pros: manageability, troubleshooting
>>   Cons: some Murphy middlebox ossifying the Internet instead of dying=20
>> in  flames
>>
>>  Once the answer is known and agreed upon, dedicated research on the=20
>> best  design for "measurement bits" will be timely. Not before.
>
> While I like the orderly approach that you propose, I might also argue=20
> that "if" we want to disclose a signal to observers might depend on=20
> "how" the signal looks like.
>
> And to me it seemed that, until now, we have shared a hidden premise=20
> that the observation is a passive action.
>
> But as I stated in my I-D, it is possible to define the observation=20
> scheme as a request-response protocol.

Well, from doing network troubleshooting every day, I can tell you that pas=
sive analysis is enormously superior to active one:
  - you (midpoint) may be too far and too untrusted from the server to requ=
est any debug info from it (which is wht your protocol is about)
  - you may not know in advance which connection will display the problem o=
f interest, and hence need to request debug for many of them
  - the problem may occur early in the connection's life, and the debug req=
uest may come too late
  - this simply doesn't scale up: you cannot do stats unless you request re=
ally too much debug info (and may be flagged by the server)
  - the potential for threats coming through the debug request channel is u=
nknown.

For this reason, please let us first see what is acceptable for a passive m=
easurement signal (including the spin bit).




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FYI: PR #1012 <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1012> about
connection migration.

This PR replaces the existing connection migration mechanism in the draft
with one that allows a client to probe from an alternate address before
actually migrating to it. It also fixes a few holes in the current
mechanism.

I've done a rewrite based on the comments on the previous version and from
the interim. The packet number skip behavior remains unchanged, but that's
going to have to come out of the ongoing packet number encryption
conversation. For the time being, I would like to leave that aspect
untouched in this PR.

FWIW, encrypting packet numbers makes it trivial to not track state across
multiple connection IDs in series. It needs careful thought otherwise.

I am also limiting the migration protocol to client migration since making
the description symmetric adds sharp edges that need to be more carefully
dealt with. I'm restricting the scope of this PR to the client/server use
case that's most relevant for v1.

--f403045c0020c583f00564fe6906
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>FYI:=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-d=
rafts/pull/1012" class=3D"cremed">PR #1012</a>=C2=A0about connection migrat=
ion.</div><div><br></div><div>This PR replaces the existing connection migr=
ation mechanism in the draft with one that allows a client to probe from an=
 alternate address before actually migrating to it. It also fixes a few hol=
es in the current mechanism.</div><div><br></div><div><div style=3D"color:r=
gb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small;font-style:normal=
;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi=
te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration-style:initial;text-decorat=
ion-color:initial">I&#39;ve done a rewrite based on the comments on the pre=
vious version and from the interim. The packet number skip behavior remains=
 unchanged, but that&#39;s going to have to come out of the ongoing packet =
number encryption conversation. For the time being, I would like to leave t=
hat aspect untouched in this PR.</div><div style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);fon=
t-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-variant-li=
gatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:norm=
al;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;=
word-spacing:0px;text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initia=
l"><br></div><div style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif=
;font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-dec=
oration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial">FWIW, encrypting packe=
t numbers makes it trivial to not track state across multiple connection ID=
s in series. It needs careful thought otherwise.</div><div style=3D"color:r=
gb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small;font-style:normal=
;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi=
te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration-style:initial;text-decorat=
ion-color:initial"><br></div><div style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:=
arial,sans-serif;font-size:small;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:n=
ormal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-a=
lign:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spac=
ing:0px;text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial">I am a=
lso limiting the migration protocol to client migration since making the de=
scription symmetric adds sharp edges that need to be more carefully dealt w=
ith. I&#39;m restricting the scope of this PR to the client/server use case=
 that&#39;s most relevant for v1.</div></div></div>

--f403045c0020c583f00564fe6906--


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From: Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv@google.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 02:19:06 -0500
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Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
To: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Mikkel_Fahn=C3=B8e_J=C3=B8rgensen?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>,  "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, Marten Seemann <martenseemann@gmail.com>, huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
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I have no idea how you get that number (by which I mean, I have a lot of
guesses, but none of which are solid or useful here).  I looked at the
profiles of various workloads we're running in production, and I estimate
that none of them would be impacted by PN encryption by worse than 0.1%.

On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 12:12 PM, Praveen Balasubramanian <
pravb@microsoft.com> wrote:

> Makes sense. The 1%+ overhead I had quoted was in comparison to *full
> protocol processing all the way from app to NIC*. This is with an
> unoptimized early QUIC implementation and not fully optimized UDP/IP stac=
k
> (we have focused much much more on optimizing TCP in the past). After
> software stack optimizations, the crypto share of the cost will only keep
> going up for which we have no technique other than to offload when such
> support is available in hardware and offload is way more challenging when
> workload is hosted in VMs and containers.
>
>
>
> *From:* Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen [mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Saturday, February 10, 2018 3:36 AM
> *To:* Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv@google.com>
> *Cc:* Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>; quic@ietf.org;
> Marten Seemann <martenseemann@gmail.com>; huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
> *Subject:* Re: Packet number encryption
>
>
>
> To put numbers into perspective using Intel 2015 data
>
>
>
> https://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/improving-openssl-
> performance#_Toc416943490
> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fsoftw=
are.intel.com%2Fen-us%2Farticles%2Fimproving-openssl-performance%23_Toc4169=
43490&data=3D04%7C01%7Cpravb%40microsoft.com%7C947ea96d592c498130df08d5707a=
6db1%7Cee3303d7fb734b0c8589bcd847f1c277%7C1%7C0%7C636538593507129957%7CUnkn=
own%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwifQ%3D=
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ved=3D0>
>
>
>
> A 64 byte message in AES-GCM AEAD in HW would use 1.03 cycles per byte or
> 66 cycles total, or 22ns on a 3GHz core.
>
>
>
> For packet numbers we use the CBC encrypt numbers because here AES cannot
> exploit block parallelism.
>
> Here we see 4.44 cycles/byte in HW or 71 cycles per block. With a 3GHz
> setup that would amount to about 24ns overhead for packet encryption.
>
>
>
> Clearly it makes no sense that AES-GCM is faster than a single AES block
> encryption, but these are only approximate numbers and CBC mode might hav=
e
> a little overhead, so we clamp packet numbers to 22ns.
>
>
>
> Taking the 98ns overhead by the Solarflare report we get a total
> (simplified) processing time is 98ns non-crypto, 22ns for packet number,
> and 22ns for AEAD totalling 142ns. So the packet number encryption overhe=
ad
> would be 22/(98+22)*100% =3D 18%. The numbers ignore other QUIC bookkeepi=
ng,
> but that can be done in other cores or outside the latency critical windo=
w.
>
>
>
> This does not take into account that AEAD operation may operate less than
> optimal because the packet number must be extracted first. On the other
> hand, it is also not a disastrous overhead if no good alternative can be
> found.
>
>
>
> Earlier AES-NI I=E2=80=99ve seen from Intel doc suggests around 100cycles=
 in HW
> for a single AES-128 block which would be 33ns per packet number in the
> above example.
>
>
>
> On 10 February 2018 at 06.18.25, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen (
> mikkelfj@gmail.com) wrote:
>
> 98ns for 68 byte messages
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">I have no idea how you get that number (by which I mean, I=
 have a lot of guesses, but none of which are solid or useful here).=C2=A0 =
I looked at the profiles of various workloads we&#39;re running in producti=
on, and I estimate that none of them would be impacted by PN encryption by =
worse than 0.1%.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote">On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 12:12 PM, Praveen Balasubramanian <span dir=3D=
"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pravb@microsoft.com" target=3D"_blank">pravb@mi=
crosoft.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"m_1923188476307337401WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Makes sense. The 1%+ overhead I had quoted was in co=
mparison to
<i>full protocol processing all the way from app to NIC</i>. This is with a=
n unoptimized early QUIC implementation and not fully optimized UDP/IP stac=
k (we have focused much much more on optimizing TCP in the past). After sof=
tware stack optimizations, the crypto
 share of the cost will only keep going up for which we have no technique o=
ther than to offload when such support is available in hardware and offload=
 is way more challenging when workload is hosted in VMs and containers.<u><=
/u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span class=3D""><b>From:</b> Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=
=C3=B8rgensen [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">mikkelfj@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
</span><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, February 10, 2018 3:36 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Victor Vasiliev &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:vasilvv@google.com" target=
=3D"_blank">vasilvv@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Praveen Balasubramanian &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pravb@microsoft.co=
m" target=3D"_blank">pravb@microsoft.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:quic@ie=
tf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic@ietf.org</a>; Marten Seemann &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:martenseemann@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">martenseemann@gmail.com</=
a>&gt;; huitema &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:huitema@huitema.net" target=3D"_blank=
">huitema@huitema.net</a>&gt;<span class=3D""><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Packet number encryption<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div id=3D"m_1923188476307337401bloop_customfont">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;He=
lvetica&quot;,sans-serif">To put numbers into perspective using Intel 2015 =
data<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div id=3D"m_1923188476307337401bloop_customfont">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;He=
lvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_1923188476307337401bloop_customfont">
<div id=3D"m_1923188476307337401bloop_customfont">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;He=
lvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><a href=3D"https://na01.safelinks.protection.outl=
ook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fsoftware.intel.com%2Fen-us%2Farticles%2Fimprov=
ing-openssl-performance%23_Toc416943490&amp;data=3D04%7C01%7Cpravb%40micros=
oft.com%7C947ea96d592c498130df08d5707a6db1%7Cee3303d7fb734b0c8589bcd847f1c2=
77%7C1%7C0%7C636538593507129957%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDA=
iLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwifQ%3D%3D%7C-1&amp;sdata=3DI1%2BnvvFBfsQ1P%=
2BwSI7riWr%2FkP9ydkAihxlpAgpFggEg%3D&amp;reserved=3D0" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://software.intel.com/en-<wbr>us/articles/improving-openssl-<wbr>perform=
ance#_Toc416943490</a><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;He=
lvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;He=
lvetica&quot;,sans-serif">A 64 byte message in AES-GCM AEAD in HW would use=
 1.03 cycles per byte or 66 cycles total, or 22ns on a 3GHz core.<u></u><u>=
</u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_1923188476307337401bloop_customfont">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;He=
lvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_1923188476307337401bloop_customfont">
<div id=3D"m_1923188476307337401bloop_customfont">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;He=
lvetica&quot;,sans-serif">For packet numbers we use the CBC encrypt numbers=
 because here AES cannot exploit block parallelism.<u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_1923188476307337401bloop_customfont">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;He=
lvetica&quot;,sans-serif">Here we see 4.44 cycles/byte in HW or 71 cycles p=
er block. With a 3GHz setup that would amount to about 24ns overhead for pa=
cket encryption.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_1923188476307337401bloop_customfont">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;He=
lvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_1923188476307337401bloop_customfont">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;He=
lvetica&quot;,sans-serif">Clearly it makes no sense that AES-GCM is faster =
than a single AES block encryption, but these are only approximate numbers =
and CBC mode might have a little overhead, so
 we clamp packet numbers to 22ns.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_1923188476307337401bloop_customfont">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;He=
lvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_1923188476307337401bloop_customfont">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;He=
lvetica&quot;,sans-serif">Taking the 98ns overhead by the Solarflare report=
 we get a total (simplified) processing time is 98ns non-crypto, 22ns for p=
acket number, and 22ns for AEAD totalling 142ns.
 So the packet number encryption overhead would be 22/(98+22)*100% =3D 18%.=
 The numbers ignore other QUIC bookkeeping, but that can be done in other c=
ores or outside the latency critical window.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_1923188476307337401bloop_customfont">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;He=
lvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_1923188476307337401bloop_customfont">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;He=
lvetica&quot;,sans-serif">This does not take into account that AEAD operati=
on may operate less than optimal because the packet number must be extracte=
d first. On the other hand, it is also not a disastrous
 overhead if no good alternative can be found.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_1923188476307337401bloop_customfont">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;He=
lvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_1923188476307337401bloop_customfont">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;He=
lvetica&quot;,sans-serif">Earlier AES-NI I=E2=80=99ve seen from Intel doc s=
uggests around 100cycles in HW for a single AES-128 block which would be 33=
ns per packet number in the above example.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"m_1923188476307337401bloop_customfont">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;He=
lvetica&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"m_1923188476307337401airmailon"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif">On 10 February 2018 at 06.18=
.25, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen (<a href=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.co=
m" target=3D"_blank">mikkelfj@gmail.com</a>) wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p=
>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;He=
lvetica Neue&quot;;color:black;background:white">98ns for 68 byte messages<=
/span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,san=
s-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div></div></div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a113f4b1c91a6f80564feb10a--


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From: Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 17:13:36 +0900
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Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-quic-perf-metrics-00.txt (Re: Measurement bit(s) or not)
To: "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge)" <thomas.fossati@nokia.com>
Cc: IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>,  "alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com" <alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com>
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Hi Thomas,

Thank you for your response. Please see my comments below.

2018-02-12 6:51 GMT+09:00 Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge)
<thomas.fossati@nokia.com>:
> On 11/02/2018, 16:51, "QUIC on behalf of Kazuho Oku" <quic-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of kazuhooku@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Therefore, I have written a proposal of a very different approach,
>> which is the following I-D.
>>
>>     Performance Metrics Subprotocol for QUIC
>>     https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kazuho-quic-perf-metrics/
>>
>> The I-D proposes to add a subprotocol that is used between an on-path
>> observer and the QUIC server to obtain the performance metrics. At the
>> latency of 1 RTT, the subprotocol can observe accurate upstream
>> loss/reorder rate, as well as SRTT / RTTVAR.
>>
>> I believe that it is not difficult to implement on the server-side
>> (please refer to section 4). Client needs no change.
>>
>> [...]
>>
>> Please let me know what you think.
>
> Hi Kazuho
>
> Thanks very much for taking the time to articulate your proposal.
>
> A few notes:
>
> - It looks like a quite significant DoS surface (both server and
>   client-side) is enabled by accepting REQUESTs from anyone.

First, let me assert that only on-path devices that observe a QUIC
packet used for that path can build a legitimate REQUEST.

Regarding DoS surface, a server typically accepts packet from any
address, so it is not an issue for the server in terms of bandwidth.
Regarding computational cost, it would be much cheaper to process the
REQUEST packet and send the response than to handle a handshake packet
(which involves a public-key crypto). Therefore, I do not think that
it would be an attractive attack surface in terms of computational
cost.

So the only aspect of this potentially being a DoS vector is the
possibility of it being used to saturate the bandwidth from the server
to the client. I agree that it is a concern and that the server should
rate-limit how often it sends the RESPONSE packets.

> - Couldn't we expose the same info via an already existing interface,
>   e.g. IPFIX / SNMP?

We can expect higher chance of the feature being deployed, if it can
be implemented solely by the QUIC server, and if it can be deployed
without any additional hassles.

Since the server with the knowledge of the packet number encryption
key (which is required to calculate distances) is often located behind
a load balancer, it makes sense to send the REQUEST packet with its
destination address and Connection ID set to the values that would be
found in a QUIC packet sent by a client.

We can expect that a QUIC server is always capable to send a packet to
the client. Therefore, it makes sense for a server to respond in the
form of a QUIC packet sent to the client.

> - If this is not a requirement for QUIC endpoints, what do you think
>   is the incentive for servers to cooperate?

Let my first point out that any feature that is specific to
observation becomes an optional feature, because endpoints do not need
to implement them to be able to communicate.

At the same time, I think that designing observation as something that
can be implemented solely as part of the QUIC server and deployable
without any other restriction gives us a higher chance of being it
deployed, as I explained above.

>
> Cheers
>



-- 
Kazuho Oku


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Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
To: Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv@google.com>, Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
Cc: Marten Seemann <martenseemann@gmail.com>, huitema <huitema@huitema.net>,  "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>
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Running the math with 0.1% PN encrypt overhead and an assumed 1200 byte
packet size

We get 66 cycles for PN encrypt (lower bound) and 66000 cycles for total
processing. AEAD is 1200 * 1,03 = 1236 cycles.
This means non-crypto processing is 66000 - 66 - 1236 = 64698 cycles.
1200/

On a 3GHz core this is 21566ns.
The Solarflare 98 ns/68 bytes result scaled to 1200 bytes is 1729 ns, which
suggests there is a theoretical 10x optimisation potential (which of course
is not realistic in a large scale production environment).

In packets per second this is 1e9/21566 packets/s = 46369pps
With 1200 bytes / packet this is 55,64 MiB/s.

This is roughly 1/2 Gbps which could be related to the network throughput
including loss and retransmission, context switches, and cache effects.

To compare with raw processing time, 55MiB/s is more than 10x slower than a
JSON parser that I have.


On 12 February 2018 at 08.19.07, Victor Vasiliev (vasilvv@google.com) wrote:

 I looked at the profiles of various workloads we're running in production,
and I estimate that none of them would be impacted by PN encryption by
worse than 0.1%.

--001a114a9d822b87020564ff7b8c
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">Running the math wit=
h 0.1% PN encrypt overhead and an assumed 1200 byte packet size</div><div i=
d=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;=
color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"blo=
op_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rg=
ba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">We get 66 cycles for PN encrypt =
(lower bound) and 66000 cycles for total processing. AEAD is 1200 * 1,03 =
=3D 1236 cycles.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Hel=
vetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:au=
to">This means non-crypto processing is 66000 - 66 - 1236 =3D 64698 cycles.=
</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;fon=
t-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">1200/</div><=
div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:=
13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=
=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;c=
olor:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">On a 3GHz core this is 21=
566ns.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Ari=
al;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">The So=
larflare 98 ns/68 bytes result scaled to 1200 bytes is 1729 ns, which sugge=
sts there is a theoretical 10x optimisation potential (which of course is n=
ot realistic in a large scale production environment).</div><div id=3D"bloo=
p_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgb=
a(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_custom=
font" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,=
1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">In packets per second this is 1e9/21566 p=
ackets/s =3D 46369pps</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-famil=
y:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-heig=
ht:auto">With 1200 bytes / packet this is 55,64 MiB/s.</div><div id=3D"bloo=
p_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgb=
a(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_custom=
font" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,=
1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">This is roughly 1/2 Gbps which could be r=
elated to the network throughput including loss and retransmission, context=
 switches, and cache effects.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"fo=
nt-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;l=
ine-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-famil=
y:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-heig=
ht:auto"><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"margin:0px">To compare with =
raw processing time, 55MiB/s is more than 10x slower than a JSON parser tha=
t I have.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div>=
</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;fon=
t-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><p=
 class=3D"airmail_on">On 12 February 2018 at 08.19.07, Victor Vasiliev (<a =
href=3D"mailto:vasilvv@google.com">vasilvv@google.com</a>) wrote:</p> <bloc=
kquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq"><span><div><span style=3D"color:rgb=
(0,0,0);font-family:&quot;helvetica Neue&quot;,helvetica;font-size:14px;fon=
t-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:n=
ormal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:norm=
al;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline!import=
ant;float:none"><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>I looked=
 at the profiles of various workloads we&#39;re running in production, and =
I estimate that none of them would be impacted by PN encryption by worse th=
an 0.1%.</span></div></span></blockquote></body></html>

--001a114a9d822b87020564ff7b8c--


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On 12 February 2018 at 09.13.44, Kazuho Oku (kazuhooku@gmail.com) wrote:

> - Couldn't we expose the same info via an already existing interface,
> e.g. IPFIX / SNMP?

We can expect higher chance of the feature being deployed, if it can
be implemented solely by the QUIC server, and if it can be deployed
without any additional hassles.


The proposal could also be implemented as an application protocol on top of
QUIC so network monitoring software could connect, authenticate and
subscribe to data. This would with the security of QUIC instead of against
it, and it could break some ground compared to ageing monitoring protocols
that might have their own security issues. I=E2=80=99d be much more in favo=
ur of
such a solution.

I don=E2=80=99t 2018 is the year to put more clear text on the wire, especi=
ally not
when to goal is to remove something as mundane as a sequential counter from
clear text.

In either case I would assume that it would not be an acceptable
replacement for passive monitoring.

--001a113fa9263477410564ff99cb
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<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">On 12 February 2018 =
at 09.13.44, Kazuho Oku (<a href=3D"mailto:kazuhooku@gmail.com">kazuhooku@g=
mail.com</a>) wrote:</div> <div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq=
" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;fon=
t-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:s=
tart;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0p=
x"><span><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:&quot;helvetica N=
eue&quot;,helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:norm=
al;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0p=
x;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:=
rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline!important">&gt; - Couldn&#39;t w=
e expose the same info via an already existing interface,<span class=3D"App=
le-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span><br style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-=
family:&quot;helvetica Neue&quot;,helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:norma=
l;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-al=
ign:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spaci=
ng:0px"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:&quot;helvetica Neue&qu=
ot;,helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;fon=
t-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text=
-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(25=
5,255,255);float:none;display:inline!important">&gt; e.g. IPFIX / SNMP?<spa=
n class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span><br style=3D"color:rg=
b(0,0,0);font-family:&quot;helvetica Neue&quot;,helvetica;font-size:14px;fo=
nt-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:=
normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:nor=
mal;word-spacing:0px"><br style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:&quot;helve=
tica Neue&quot;,helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-cap=
s:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-ind=
ent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:&quot;helvetica Neue&quot;,helvetica;font=
-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;le=
tter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;wh=
ite-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:n=
one;display:inline!important">We can expect higher chance of the feature be=
ing deployed, if it can<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><=
/span><br style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:&quot;helvetica Neue&quot;,=
helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-we=
ight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tra=
nsform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0=
,0,0);font-family:&quot;helvetica Neue&quot;,helvetica;font-size:14px;font-=
style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:nor=
mal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal=
;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inli=
ne!important">be implemented solely by the QUIC server, and if it can be de=
ployed<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span><br style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:&quot;helvetica Neue&quot;,helvetica;font-=
size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi=
te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-fami=
ly:&quot;helvetica Neue&quot;,helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;fo=
nt-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:=
start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0=
px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline!important">w=
ithout any additional hassles.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0<=
/span></span></div></span></blockquote></div><p><br></p><p>The proposal cou=
ld also be implemented as an application protocol on top of QUIC so network=
 monitoring software could connect, authenticate and subscribe to data. Thi=
s would with the security of QUIC instead of against it, and it could break=
 some ground compared to ageing monitoring protocols that might have their =
own security issues. I=E2=80=99d be much more in favour of such a solution.=
</p><p>I don=E2=80=99t 2018 is the year to put more clear text on the wire,=
 especially not when to goal is to remove something as mundane as a sequent=
ial counter from clear text.</p><p>In either case I would assume that it wo=
uld not be an acceptable replacement for passive monitoring.</p><div></div>=
</body></html>

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Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-quic-perf-metrics-00.txt (Re: Measurement bit(s) or not)
To: Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>,  "Fossati, Thomas (Nokia - GB/Cambridge)" <thomas.fossati@nokia.com>
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--001a113520ee1692410564ffae37
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The proposal could also be implemented as an application protocol on top of
QUIC

A way to do this could be to post monitoring data on an MQTT message queue,
especially if that queue is secured with QUIC. I=E2=80=99ve build applicati=
on
monitoring solutions in a similar manner and it works quite well.

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<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq" style=3D"font-family:Helvet=
ica,Arial;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-we=
ight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tra=
nsform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span><div style=3D"word-w=
rap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><div><p>The proposal could als=
o be implemented as an application protocol on top of QUIC</p></div></div><=
/span></blockquote></div><p>A way to do this could be to post monitoring da=
ta on an MQTT message queue, especially if that queue is secured with QUIC.=
 I=E2=80=99ve build application monitoring solutions in a similar manner an=
d it works quite well.</p></body></html>

--001a113520ee1692410564ffae37--


From nobody Mon Feb 12 01:20:24 2018
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Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-quic-perf-metrics-00.txt (Re: Measurement bit(s) or not)
From: "Brian Trammell (IETF)" <ietf@trammell.ch>
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hi Kazuho,

Many thanks for the draft. I've had a quick look at it. I like the =
architecture it proposes -- hey, since the endpoints have full access to =
all of these parameters, why not just ask them? -- but I'm afraid I =
agree with the chorus of negative voices here that this raises too many =
new issues to really be workable.

We looked at something like this for PLUS -- a generic path-request =
mechanism allowing a middlebox to ask an endpoint for a value -- and =
decided to drop it from the proposal because the trust and DoS issues =
were just too hairy.

First, the mechanism adds up to 1RTT of delay, depending on the relative =
position of the requesting device and the endpoint it wants to request =
information from. Second, the reported metrics only have the resolution =
available from the queried endpoint -- as we've seen in our work with =
the spin bit, completely exposed signals don't suffer from this issue. =
But most importantly, adding a hook for on path devices to query =
endpoints adds significant complexity and attack surface, and seems =
extremely difficult to secure against collaborating malicious devices =
on-and-off-path.

One nice thing about purely passive signals is that we know what the =
information content is, we have a pretty good handle on how to restrict =
their design to reduce the risk of additional endpoint fingerprinting, =
and if we find the right tradeoff in endpoint complexity and measurement =
fidelity, can get a lot of win for minimal implementation effort and =
very little if any attack surface.

I certainly think measurement and debugging approaches where both =
servers and clients use existing mechanisms or extensions thereof (IPFIX =
or something like Prometheus on the server side; extensions to JS APIs =
for browsers or some other instrumentation on the client side) are a =
useful part of diagnosing issues with QUIC traffic; indeed, =
standardizing one or two of these would be a useful side project to =
reduce the shock widespread QUIC deployment represents to the hosting =
and web development communities. But neither scales very well to getting =
information to other-than-client and other-than-server entities.

Thanks, chsser,

Brian


> On 11 Feb 2018, at 17:51, Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> 2018-02-11 2:34 GMT+09:00  <alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com>:
>> Then Kazuho's square signal and Mikkel's Pi (or any other consensual
>> self-synchronizing sequence) ramification came up. They are both =
appealing
>> for their elegance and low complexity on QUIC endpoints. Beyond their =
quirks
>> acknowledged here, here are a few considerations for troubleshooting:
>> (snip)
>> Given these, a benevolent, troubleshooting-minded passive midpoint =
will
>> clearly vote for the square. Now the obvious question is: is this
>> acceptable, or deemed too easy for a Murphy, Inc. active middlebox to =
see
>> upstream losses and benevolently wreak havoc by delaying packets ?
>=20
> Thank you for raising the question.
>=20
> While I think that using square wave is a neat idea, I am not so sure
> if the wavelength is correct, or if it would continue to be correct
> for the lifetime of the transport protocol. I assume that other
> patterns that have been proposed (e.g., PI, random) share the same
> weakness.
>=20
> Therefore, I have written a proposal of a very different approach,
> which is the following I-D.
>=20
>    Performance Metrics Subprotocol for QUIC
>    https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kazuho-quic-perf-metrics/
>=20
> The I-D proposes to add a subprotocol that is used between an on-path
> observer and the QUIC server to obtain the performance metrics. At the
> latency of 1 RTT, the subprotocol can observe accurate upstream
> loss/reorder rate, as well as SRTT / RTTVAR.
>=20
> I believe that it is not difficult to implement on the server-side
> (please refer to section 4). Client needs no change.
>=20
> Since the proposed approach does not hard-code any information for
> observation on the wire, the hard part of the design issue goes away.
> We can adjust what (and how) to observe independently from the QUIC
> transport. I think that this is not only a win in terms of design but
> also might have positive effect on moving the standardization process
> forward, since we would no longer be constrained by the discussion of
> what should be observable "on-the-wire."
>=20
> Privacy concern regarding observation becomes minor, since observation
> becomes "observable" and deniable by an endpoint.
>=20
> Although SRTT / RTTVAR is observable, I am not sure if it can be used
> to replace the Spin Bit proposal. It depends on how often and how fast
> an observer needs to see the metrics. Primary target of my proposal is
> to help diagnosing issues.
>=20
> Please let me know what you think.
>=20
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From:  <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
> Date: 2018-02-12 1:43 GMT+09:00
> Subject: New Version Notification for =
draft-kazuho-quic-perf-metrics-00.txt
> To: Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>
>=20
>=20
>=20
> A new version of I-D, draft-kazuho-quic-perf-metrics-00.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Kazuho Oku and posted to the
> IETF repository.
>=20
> Name:           draft-kazuho-quic-perf-metrics
> Revision:       00
> Title:          Performance Metrics Subprotocol for QUIC
> Document date:  2018-02-12
> Group:          Individual Submission
> Pages:          8
> URL:
> =
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-kazuho-quic-perf-metrics-00.txt=

> Status:         =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kazuho-quic-perf-metrics/
> Htmlized:       =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kazuho-quic-perf-metrics-00
> Htmlized:
> =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-kazuho-quic-perf-metrics-00
>=20
>=20
> Abstract:
>   This memo proposes a subprotocol that can be used to query the
>   performance metrics of a QUIC path.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>=20
> The IETF Secretariat
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> Kazuho Oku
>=20


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Subject: Re: Measurement bit(s) or not
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 10:20:14 +0100
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Cc: "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>, "alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com" <alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com>, =?utf-8?Q?Mikkel_Fahn=C3=B8e_J=C3=B8rgensen?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>
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hi Mikkel, Igor, Alexandre, all,

Engineering is fun, but let's step back a bit. :)

It looks like we're exploring a space of proposals that have different =
tradeoffs for the patterns of loss and reordering they can easily make =
visible, tradeoffs for sender (endpoint) versus observer (midpoint) =
complexity, and tradeoffs for fidelity versus overhead.

In any case, it seems like it is possible to design a signal that would =
be a vast improvement (from the measurement utility standpoint) over no =
signal and no discernible pattern in the packet number that will fit in =
bits scavenged from the Type field of the short header, i.e., the =
bandwidth overhead will be *zero*, because otherwise in an encrypted-PN =
world we just have to grease those bits anyway.

Back to Alexandre's question:

Do we want to do this?

Rephrased: Is the passive measurability of loss, reordering (and, if we =
consider the spin bit as one of the measurement bits, latency) of QUIC =
important to us, or do we decide we can live with the negative pressure =
a complete loss of visibility and an vast increase in diagnostic =
complexity will place on deployment?

Note, of course, that all the proposals we have so far represent a =
decrease in visibility and an increase in complexity of measurement =
compared to passive measurement of TCP. New tools will have to be =
developed. But the loss of visibility is minimal compared to blackout, =
and the deployability and feasibility of all of these is far, far better =
than an SSLKEYLOGFILE-based debugging approach, especially in the =
interdomain case.

I've heard at least one dismissal of this whole space as being too =
abstract to take seriously. (I'm not concerned, but maybe I've been =
staring at network measurement both passive and active for too long to =
know what's intuitive anymore.) Let me then suggest a way forward:

I've announced a table at the London hackathon for "Transport =
Measurability" (see =
https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/101hackathon), which we =
intend to set up in the vicinity of QUIC. This was originally intended =
as the "Spin Bit" table, and we (from ETH) will be there working on =
scalable, open-source passive measurement tools both for the spin bit as =
well as for the current TCP TSOPT and SEQ/ACK methodologies (as a basis =
of comparison, mainly; at least in the case of the spin bit we so far =
believe the explicit signal=C5=93 to have superior usability compared to =
current TCP measurement). I suggest we expand the scope of table to hack =
on various signals for loss and reordering, and to compare their =
complexity and fidelity against the loss and reordering patterns we want =
visibility into. One output of this work could be a (smaller) set of =
suggestion(s) for which signal(s) to add, so that those who want to have =
concrete proposals to evaluate can do so.

Cheers,

Brian


> On 11 Feb 2018, at 20:25, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen =
<mikkelfj@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> Actually, since the half-period is 16*2048 so loss can be detected up =
to 32K packets, or typically 32MB worth of data. At the same time loss =
can be detected within the first 16 bytes by trivially comparing the =
first 8 bits with the next 8 bits. If these are not the same, something =
is off.
>=20
> But it is perfect because all bits could be zero.
>=20
> To improve on this, each transmitted bit could be spread over two =
packets, 0, 1 for sending a reset bit, and 1, 0 for sending a set bit. =
If we then drop repeating the 8 bit pattern, the shortest half-period =
remains at 16 packets since an 8-bit Gray code requires 16 packets.
>=20
> Now we can detect a single loss or swap already after two packets, =
although this is probably not interesting since reordering could happen =
already in multiple send queues.
> On 11 February 2018 at 20.06.14, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen =
(mikkelfj@gmail.com) wrote:
>=20
>> I already wrote this elsewhere, but the mail topic was a bit off, and =
I think it might actually be a good alternative to the other approaches =
balancing the simplicity of the square without the problem of having to =
wait for the square half period to detect loss.
>>=20
>> It is a fractal pattern in the form of grey code. For example an 8 =
bit code that is transmitted one bit a time. Each bit represents a wave =
length and changes at half the wave length. To simplify synchronisation, =
the same 8 bit pattern could be transmitted twice before a bit changes. =
This would support half-periods of 16, 32, =E2=80=A6, 2048 packets.
>>=20
>> In addition, there is a lot of error correcting coding theory around =
this with noise analysis and maximum likelihood decoders.
>>=20
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gray_code
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constellation_diagram
>>=20
>> The encoding is simple as per Wikipedia:
>>=20
>> /*
>>  * This function converts an unsigned binary
>>  * number to reflected binary Gray code.
>>  *
>>  * The operator >> is shift right. The operator ^ is exclusive or.
>>  */
>> unsigned int binaryToGray(unsigned int num)
>> {
>>=20
>>=20
>> return num ^ (num >> 1);
>> }
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> /*
>>  * This function converts a reflected binary
>>  * Gray code number to a binary number.
>>  * Each Gray code bit is exclusive-ored with all
>>  * more significant bits.
>>  */
>> unsigned int grayToBinary(unsigned int num)
>> {
>>=20
>>=20
>> unsigned int mask =3D num;
>>=20
>>=20
>> while (mask !=3D 0)
>>=20
>>=20
>> {
>>=20
>>=20
>> mask =3D mask >> 1;
>>=20
>>=20
>> num =3D num ^ mask;
>>=20
>>=20
>> }
>>=20
>>=20
>> return num;
>> }
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> /*
>>  * A more efficient version, for Gray codes of 32 or fewer bits.
>>  */
>> unsigned int grayToBinary32(unsigned int num)
>> {
>>=20
>>=20
>> num =3D num ^ (num >> 16);
>>=20
>>=20
>> num =3D num ^ (num >> 8);
>>=20
>>=20
>> num =3D num ^ (num >> 4);
>>=20
>>=20
>> num =3D num ^ (num >> 2);
>>=20
>>=20
>> num =3D num ^ (num >> 1);
>>=20
>>=20
>> return num;
>> }
>>=20
>>=20
>> On 10 February 2018 at 22.41.51, Lubashev, Igor (ilubashe@akamai.com) =
wrote:
>>=20
>>> I am a bit sceptical about the square. With TCP, packet trace shows =
loss of any packet, except for SYN. The "square wave" whould show no =
loss at all for short connections (fewer than a "wavelength" of =
packets). Moreover, the square wave can only detect loss after up to the =
wave length of subsequent packets has been transmitted. If there is an =
application pause in transmission, loss may not become evident.
>>>=20
>>> Basically, a spin bit or a bit pattern (like a square wave) may help =
in troubleshooting, but it will be more uncertain and hokey than what =
people come to expect of tcp. We have be very clear in acknowledging it.
>>>=20
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com [alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com]
>>> Received: Saturday, 10 Feb 2018, 12:34PM
>>> To: quic@ietf.org [quic@ietf.org]
>>> Subject: Measurement bit(s) or not
>>>=20
>>> On 07/02/2018 14:34, Brian Trammell (IETF) wrote:
>>>  > hi Jana,
>>>  >
>>>  >> 3. Some sequencing information -- a few bits of the packet =
number perhaps
>>>  >> -- should be revealed (for monitoring. Number of bits TBD.)
>>>  >
>>>  > This is the crux of the argument. On one side we have the risk of =
misuse and
>>>  > ossification (well, not ossification -- these bits are *meant* =
for the path
>>>  > -- rather the risk that we'll figure out later that we specified =
the wrong
>>>  > thing), on the other side we have the loss of visibility into how =
QUIC
>>>  > traffic interacts with the network as compared to TCP, with a =
side question
>>>  > of whether or not this visibility is really the transport layer's =
problem
>>>  > despite the evolution the practice of diagnostics and =
troubleshooting using
>>>  > TCP information.
>>>  >
>>>  > If we can come to agreement on this question, everything else =
falls into
>>>  > place. I have my arguments here, but as you said, this subthread =
is not the
>>>  > place for them. :)
>>>=20
>>> The crux indeed. So what about settling it first ?
>>>=20
>>> With the troubleshooting hat, I can only stress the need for =
measurement bits,
>>> for the benefit of everybody, since s**t happens, networks are =
imperfect, and
>>> nifty encapsulations-with-seqnum will simply not be where you need =
them.
>>>=20
>>> Now to the exact nature of these measurement bits:
>>>=20
>>> Thanks to the detailed exchanges on this thread, it is by now clear =
that a
>>> simple gapless counter, even nonzero-based and XORed, is not =
acceptable. The
>>> 4-bit SSN comes pretty close but is not enough when things go really =
wrong (and
>>> they will - and that's where we need the tool).
>>>=20
>>> Then Kazuho's square signal and Mikkel's Pi (or any other consensual
>>> self-synchronizing sequence) ramification came up. They are both =
appealing for
>>> their elegance and low complexity on QUIC endpoints. Beyond their =
quirks
>>> acknowledged here, here are a few considerations for =
troubleshooting:
>>>=20
>>>   (1) Since reordering is less of a concern to QUIC than to TCP, it =
becomes a
>>> secondary goal. This is nice, because the square doesn't see it, and =
the
>>> self-synchronizing sequence will only tolerate a mild one, and never =
see its
>>> detail like cycle length etc.
>>>=20
>>>   (2) There's of course a huge difference between them in complexity =
for the
>>> midpoint: square is trivial, Pi is hefty.
>>>=20
>>> Given these, a benevolent, troubleshooting-minded passive midpoint =
will clearly
>>> vote for the square. Now the obvious question is: is this =
acceptable, or deemed
>>> too easy for a Murphy, Inc. active middlebox to see upstream losses =
and
>>> benevolently wreak havoc by delaying packets ?
>>>=20
>>> =
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Subject: Re: Measurement bit(s) or not
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On 12 February 2018 at 10.20.16, Brian Trammell (IETF) (ietf@trammell.ch)
wrote:

Do we want to do this?

Rephrased: Is the passive measurability of loss, reordering (and, if we
consider the spin bit as one of the measurement bits, latency) of QUIC
important to us, or do we decide we can live with the negative pressure a
complete loss of visibility and an vast increase in diagnostic complexity
will place on deployment?

Originally I did not care much, but I think there is self-interest in
supporting some level of passive monitoring:

External hostile agents that can drop packets are more easily exposed,
hence monitoring is a deterrent.

Traffic shaping by an internet provider might be exposed more easily.
Internet providers might =E2=80=9Caccidentally=E2=80=9D misplace some netfl=
ix packets.

Routers that experience faulty paths can more readily route traffic towards
higher fidelity path in terms of latency and loss.

Omitting monitoring might just add tunnel headers increasing overhead.

Clearly there is a privacy concern, and we should not expose unnecessary
details. Packets could be sorted against the applications interest. But
this can happen with tunnel headers. Latency cannot as easily be monitored
without help, but it is not that difficult either: measure timing between
packets and find a pause, then wait for traffic the other way.

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<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">On 12 February 2018 =
at 10.20.16, Brian Trammell (IETF) (<a href=3D"mailto:ietf@trammell.ch">iet=
f@trammell.ch</a>) wrote:</div> <div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"cle=
an_bq" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;font-style:norma=
l;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-al=
ign:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spaci=
ng:0px"><span><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:&quot;helvet=
ica Neue&quot;,helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps=
:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-inde=
nt:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-c=
olor:rgb(255,255,255);float:none;display:inline!important">Do we want to do=
 this?<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span><br style=
=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:&quot;helvetica Neue&quot;,helvetica;font-=
size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;let=
ter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whi=
te-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family=
:&quot;helvetica Neue&quot;,helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font=
-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:st=
art;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px=
"><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:&quot;helvetica Neue&quot;,he=
lvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weig=
ht:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-trans=
form:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,=
255);float:none;display:inline!important">Rephrased: Is the passive measura=
bility of loss, reordering (and, if we consider the spin bit as one of the =
measurement bits, latency) of QUIC important to us, or do we decide we can =
live with the negative pressure a complete loss of visibility and an vast i=
ncrease in diagnostic complexity will place on deployment?<span class=3D"Ap=
ple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span></div></span></blockquote></div><p=
>Originally I did not care much, but I think there is self-interest in supp=
orting some level of passive monitoring:</p><p>External hostile agents that=
 can drop packets are more easily exposed, hence monitoring is a deterrent.=
</p><p>Traffic shaping by an internet provider might be exposed more easily=
. Internet providers might =E2=80=9Caccidentally=E2=80=9D misplace some net=
flix packets.</p><p>Routers that experience faulty paths can more readily r=
oute traffic towards higher fidelity path in terms of latency and loss.</p>=
<p>Omitting monitoring might just add tunnel headers increasing overhead.</=
p><p>Clearly there is a privacy concern, and we should not expose unnecessa=
ry details. Packets could be sorted against the applications interest. But =
this can happen with tunnel headers. Latency cannot as easily be monitored =
without help, but it is not that difficult either: measure timing between p=
ackets and find a pause, then wait for traffic the other way.</p><div></div=
></body></html>

--001a114a9d826cfa110565009711--


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From: Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 20:43:59 +0900
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Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
To: Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv@google.com>
Cc: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>, Marten Seemann <martenseemann@gmail.com>,  =?UTF-8?Q?Mikkel_Fahn=C3=B8e_J=C3=B8rgensen?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>,  "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
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Victor, Mikkel, thank you for the estimations.

To me it seems that the estimated overhead of 0.1% seems like a
natural number that we would see on production environment, where the
average packet size is not small.

I also agree that it would be worthwhile to look the case where small
packets are exchanged. The numbers deducted from Solarflare report is
interesting, however I am not sure if that reflects the ordinary use
of a protocol; my understanding is that HFT is exceptional.

One benchmark that might give us a more meaningful number is the DNS benchm=
ark.

https://www.knot-dns.cz/benchmark/ lists a benchmark of several
authoritative DNS servers. The TLD benchmark and the Hosting (10k)
benchmark gives us the rough estimation on how much PPS we can achieve
when exchanging small packets.

The numbers we see on the benchmark is roughly 2M RPS (4M pps) on a 16
core (8x2) Intel Xeon processer running with HP enabled, when the
fastest DNS server is being used.

Running `openssl speed -evp` on a similar CPU gives me the following result=
:

    $ /usr/local/openssl-1.1.0/bin/openssl speed -evp aes128
    Doing aes-128-cbc for 3s on 16 size blocks: 133387877 aes-128-cbc's in =
3.00s

This shows that 40M AES block operations can be run on a single core,
per second, which in turn means that a server with 16 cores can
perform 640M AES block operations per second (or 1,280M if HT is
enabled and if AES is not the bottleneck).

To summarize, if DNS had packet encryption, the overhead would be
somewhere from 0.3% to 0.6%.

Considering that, I would anticipate that the overhead of packet
number encryption will be neglible even for short packet workloads.


2018-02-12 16:19 GMT+09:00 Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv@google.com>:
> I have no idea how you get that number (by which I mean, I have a lot of
> guesses, but none of which are solid or useful here).  I looked at the
> profiles of various workloads we're running in production, and I estimate
> that none of them would be impacted by PN encryption by worse than 0.1%.
>
> On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 12:12 PM, Praveen Balasubramanian
> <pravb@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>
>> Makes sense. The 1%+ overhead I had quoted was in comparison to full
>> protocol processing all the way from app to NIC. This is with an unoptim=
ized
>> early QUIC implementation and not fully optimized UDP/IP stack (we have
>> focused much much more on optimizing TCP in the past). After software st=
ack
>> optimizations, the crypto share of the cost will only keep going up for
>> which we have no technique other than to offload when such support is
>> available in hardware and offload is way more challenging when workload =
is
>> hosted in VMs and containers.
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen [mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2018 3:36 AM
>> To: Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv@google.com>
>> Cc: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>; quic@ietf.org; Marten
>> Seemann <martenseemann@gmail.com>; huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
>> Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
>>
>>
>>
>> To put numbers into perspective using Intel 2015 data
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> https://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/improving-openssl-performance#=
_Toc416943490
>>
>>
>>
>> A 64 byte message in AES-GCM AEAD in HW would use 1.03 cycles per byte o=
r
>> 66 cycles total, or 22ns on a 3GHz core.
>>
>>
>>
>> For packet numbers we use the CBC encrypt numbers because here AES canno=
t
>> exploit block parallelism.
>>
>> Here we see 4.44 cycles/byte in HW or 71 cycles per block. With a 3GHz
>> setup that would amount to about 24ns overhead for packet encryption.
>>
>>
>>
>> Clearly it makes no sense that AES-GCM is faster than a single AES block
>> encryption, but these are only approximate numbers and CBC mode might ha=
ve a
>> little overhead, so we clamp packet numbers to 22ns.
>>
>>
>>
>> Taking the 98ns overhead by the Solarflare report we get a total
>> (simplified) processing time is 98ns non-crypto, 22ns for packet number,=
 and
>> 22ns for AEAD totalling 142ns. So the packet number encryption overhead
>> would be 22/(98+22)*100% =3D 18%. The numbers ignore other QUIC bookkeep=
ing,
>> but that can be done in other cores or outside the latency critical wind=
ow.
>>
>>
>>
>> This does not take into account that AEAD operation may operate less tha=
n
>> optimal because the packet number must be extracted first. On the other
>> hand, it is also not a disastrous overhead if no good alternative can be
>> found.
>>
>>
>>
>> Earlier AES-NI I=E2=80=99ve seen from Intel doc suggests around 100cycle=
s in HW
>> for a single AES-128 block which would be 33ns per packet number in the
>> above example.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10 February 2018 at 06.18.25, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen
>> (mikkelfj@gmail.com) wrote:
>>
>> 98ns for 68 byte messages
>
>



--=20
Kazuho Oku


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Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
To: Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv@google.com>, Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>
Cc: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>,  Marten Seemann <martenseemann@gmail.com>, huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
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I can add some more numbers here
https://github.com/openssl/openssl/blob/master/crypto/aes/asm/aesni-x86_64.=
pl

The numbers deducted from Solarflare report is
interesting, however I am not sure if that reflects the ordinary use
of a protocol; my understanding is that HFT is exceptional.

HFT is the extreme case which is why the benchmark is interesting, not
necessarily the use case itself.

The same concern applies to how fast a distributed database can achieve
consensus, which is something I do care about.

On 12 February 2018 at 12.44.01, Kazuho Oku (kazuhooku@gmail.com) wrote:

Victor, Mikkel, thank you for the estimations.

To me it seems that the estimated overhead of 0.1% seems like a
natural number that we would see on production environment, where the
average packet size is not small.

I also agree that it would be worthwhile to look the case where small
packets are exchanged. The numbers deducted from Solarflare report is
interesting, however I am not sure if that reflects the ordinary use
of a protocol; my understanding is that HFT is exceptional.

One benchmark that might give us a more meaningful number is the DNS
benchmark.

https://www.knot-dns.cz/benchmark/ lists a benchmark of several
authoritative DNS servers. The TLD benchmark and the Hosting (10k)
benchmark gives us the rough estimation on how much PPS we can achieve
when exchanging small packets.

The numbers we see on the benchmark is roughly 2M RPS (4M pps) on a 16
core (8x2) Intel Xeon processer running with HP enabled, when the
fastest DNS server is being used.

Running `openssl speed -evp` on a similar CPU gives me the following
result:

$ /usr/local/openssl-1.1.0/bin/openssl speed -evp aes128
Doing aes-128-cbc for 3s on 16 size blocks: 133387877 aes-128-cbc's in
3.00s

This shows that 40M AES block operations can be run on a single core,
per second, which in turn means that a server with 16 cores can
perform 640M AES block operations per second (or 1,280M if HT is
enabled and if AES is not the bottleneck).

To summarize, if DNS had packet encryption, the overhead would be
somewhere from 0.3% to 0.6%.

Considering that, I would anticipate that the overhead of packet
number encryption will be neglible even for short packet workloads.


2018-02-12 16:19 GMT+09:00 Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv@google.com>:
> I have no idea how you get that number (by which I mean, I have a lot of
> guesses, but none of which are solid or useful here). I looked at the
> profiles of various workloads we're running in production, and I estimate
> that none of them would be impacted by PN encryption by worse than 0.1%.
>
> On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 12:12 PM, Praveen Balasubramanian
> <pravb@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>
>> Makes sense. The 1%+ overhead I had quoted was in comparison to full
>> protocol processing all the way from app to NIC. This is with an
unoptimized
>> early QUIC implementation and not fully optimized UDP/IP stack (we have
>> focused much much more on optimizing TCP in the past). After software
stack
>> optimizations, the crypto share of the cost will only keep going up for
>> which we have no technique other than to offload when such support is
>> available in hardware and offload is way more challenging when workload
is
>> hosted in VMs and containers.
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen [mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2018 3:36 AM
>> To: Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv@google.com>
>> Cc: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>; quic@ietf.org; Marten
>> Seemann <martenseemann@gmail.com>; huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
>> Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
>>
>>
>>
>> To put numbers into perspective using Intel 2015 data
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
https://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/improving-openssl-performance#_To=
c416943490
>>
>>
>>
>> A 64 byte message in AES-GCM AEAD in HW would use 1.03 cycles per byte
or
>> 66 cycles total, or 22ns on a 3GHz core.
>>
>>
>>
>> For packet numbers we use the CBC encrypt numbers because here AES
cannot
>> exploit block parallelism.
>>
>> Here we see 4.44 cycles/byte in HW or 71 cycles per block. With a 3GHz
>> setup that would amount to about 24ns overhead for packet encryption.
>>
>>
>>
>> Clearly it makes no sense that AES-GCM is faster than a single AES block
>> encryption, but these are only approximate numbers and CBC mode might
have a
>> little overhead, so we clamp packet numbers to 22ns.
>>
>>
>>
>> Taking the 98ns overhead by the Solarflare report we get a total
>> (simplified) processing time is 98ns non-crypto, 22ns for packet number,
and
>> 22ns for AEAD totalling 142ns. So the packet number encryption overhead
>> would be 22/(98+22)*100% =3D 18%. The numbers ignore other QUIC
bookkeeping,
>> but that can be done in other cores or outside the latency critical
window.
>>
>>
>>
>> This does not take into account that AEAD operation may operate less
than
>> optimal because the packet number must be extracted first. On the other
>> hand, it is also not a disastrous overhead if no good alternative can be
>> found.
>>
>>
>>
>> Earlier AES-NI I=E2=80=99ve seen from Intel doc suggests around 100cycle=
s in HW
>> for a single AES-128 block which would be 33ns per packet number in the
>> above example.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10 February 2018 at 06.18.25, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen
>> (mikkelfj@gmail.com) wrote:
>>
>> 98ns for 68 byte messages
>
>



--=20
Kazuho Oku

--001a114fd4c815943a05650279f4
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">I can add some more =
numbers here</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helveti=
ca,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">=
<a href=3D"https://github.com/openssl/openssl/blob/master/crypto/aes/asm/ae=
sni-x86_64.pl">https://github.com/openssl/openssl/blob/master/crypto/aes/as=
m/aesni-x86_64.pl</a></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-famil=
y:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-heig=
ht:auto"><br></div> <div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq" style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;te=
xt-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">The =
numbers deducted from Solarflare report is=C2=A0<br>interesting, however I =
am not sure if that reflects the ordinary use=C2=A0<br>of a protocol; my un=
derstanding is that HFT is exceptional.=C2=A0</blockquote></div><p>HFT is t=
he extreme case which is why the benchmark is interesting, not necessarily =
the use case itself.</p><p>The same concern applies to how fast a distribut=
ed database can achieve consensus, which is something I do care about.</p> =
<br><p class=3D"airmail_on">On 12 February 2018 at 12.44.01, Kazuho Oku (<a=
 href=3D"mailto:kazuhooku@gmail.com">kazuhooku@gmail.com</a>) wrote:</p> <b=
lockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq"><span><div><div></div><div>Victo=
r, Mikkel, thank you for the estimations.
<br>
<br>To me it seems that the estimated overhead of 0.1% seems like a
<br>natural number that we would see on production environment, where the
<br>average packet size is not small.
<br>
<br>I also agree that it would be worthwhile to look the case where small
<br>packets are exchanged. The numbers deducted from Solarflare report is
<br>interesting, however I am not sure if that reflects the ordinary use
<br>of a protocol; my understanding is that HFT is exceptional.
<br>
<br>One benchmark that might give us a more meaningful number is the DNS be=
nchmark.
<br>
<br><a href=3D"https://www.knot-dns.cz/benchmark/">https://www.knot-dns.cz/=
benchmark/</a> lists a benchmark of several
<br>authoritative DNS servers. The TLD benchmark and the Hosting (10k)
<br>benchmark gives us the rough estimation on how much PPS we can achieve
<br>when exchanging small packets.
<br>
<br>The numbers we see on the benchmark is roughly 2M RPS (4M pps) on a 16
<br>core (8x2) Intel Xeon processer running with HP enabled, when the
<br>fastest DNS server is being used.
<br>
<br>Running `openssl speed -evp` on a similar CPU gives me the following re=
sult:
<br>
<br>    $ /usr/local/openssl-1.1.0/bin/openssl speed -evp aes128
<br>    Doing aes-128-cbc for 3s on 16 size blocks: 133387877 aes-128-cbc&#=
39;s in 3.00s
<br>
<br>This shows that 40M AES block operations can be run on a single core,
<br>per second, which in turn means that a server with 16 cores can
<br>perform 640M AES block operations per second (or 1,280M if HT is
<br>enabled and if AES is not the bottleneck).
<br>
<br>To summarize, if DNS had packet encryption, the overhead would be
<br>somewhere from 0.3% to 0.6%.
<br>
<br>Considering that, I would anticipate that the overhead of packet
<br>number encryption will be neglible even for short packet workloads.
<br>
<br>
<br>2018-02-12 16:19 GMT+09:00 Victor Vasiliev &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:vasilv=
v@google.com">vasilvv@google.com</a>&gt;:
<br>&gt; I have no idea how you get that number (by which I mean, I have a =
lot of
<br>&gt; guesses, but none of which are solid or useful here).  I looked at=
 the
<br>&gt; profiles of various workloads we&#39;re running in production, and=
 I estimate
<br>&gt; that none of them would be impacted by PN encryption by worse than=
 0.1%.
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 12:12 PM, Praveen Balasubramanian
<br>&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pravb@microsoft.com">pravb@microsoft.com</a>=
&gt; wrote:
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt; Makes sense. The 1%+ overhead I had quoted was in comparison t=
o full
<br>&gt;&gt; protocol processing all the way from app to NIC. This is with =
an unoptimized
<br>&gt;&gt; early QUIC implementation and not fully optimized UDP/IP stack=
 (we have
<br>&gt;&gt; focused much much more on optimizing TCP in the past). After s=
oftware stack
<br>&gt;&gt; optimizations, the crypto share of the cost will only keep goi=
ng up for
<br>&gt;&gt; which we have no technique other than to offload when such sup=
port is
<br>&gt;&gt; available in hardware and offload is way more challenging when=
 workload is
<br>&gt;&gt; hosted in VMs and containers.
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt; From: Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen [mailto:<a href=3D"mai=
lto:mikkelfj@gmail.com">mikkelfj@gmail.com</a>]
<br>&gt;&gt; Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2018 3:36 AM
<br>&gt;&gt; To: Victor Vasiliev &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:vasilvv@google.com">=
vasilvv@google.com</a>&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt; Cc: Praveen Balasubramanian &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pravb@micros=
oft.com">pravb@microsoft.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic=
@ietf.org</a>; Marten
<br>&gt;&gt; Seemann &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martenseemann@gmail.com">martens=
eemann@gmail.com</a>&gt;; huitema &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:huitema@huitema.net=
">huitema@huitema.net</a>&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt; Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt; To put numbers into perspective using Intel 2015 data
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/improving=
-openssl-performance#_Toc416943490">https://software.intel.com/en-us/articl=
es/improving-openssl-performance#_Toc416943490</a>
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt; A 64 byte message in AES-GCM AEAD in HW would use 1.03 cycles =
per byte or
<br>&gt;&gt; 66 cycles total, or 22ns on a 3GHz core.
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt; For packet numbers we use the CBC encrypt numbers because here=
 AES cannot
<br>&gt;&gt; exploit block parallelism.
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt; Here we see 4.44 cycles/byte in HW or 71 cycles per block. Wit=
h a 3GHz
<br>&gt;&gt; setup that would amount to about 24ns overhead for packet encr=
yption.
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt; Clearly it makes no sense that AES-GCM is faster than a single=
 AES block
<br>&gt;&gt; encryption, but these are only approximate numbers and CBC mod=
e might have a
<br>&gt;&gt; little overhead, so we clamp packet numbers to 22ns.
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt; Taking the 98ns overhead by the Solarflare report we get a tot=
al
<br>&gt;&gt; (simplified) processing time is 98ns non-crypto, 22ns for pack=
et number, and
<br>&gt;&gt; 22ns for AEAD totalling 142ns. So the packet number encryption=
 overhead
<br>&gt;&gt; would be 22/(98+22)*100% =3D 18%. The numbers ignore other QUI=
C bookkeeping,
<br>&gt;&gt; but that can be done in other cores or outside the latency cri=
tical window.
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt; This does not take into account that AEAD operation may operat=
e less than
<br>&gt;&gt; optimal because the packet number must be extracted first. On =
the other
<br>&gt;&gt; hand, it is also not a disastrous overhead if no good alternat=
ive can be
<br>&gt;&gt; found.
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt; Earlier AES-NI I=E2=80=99ve seen from Intel doc suggests aroun=
d 100cycles in HW
<br>&gt;&gt; for a single AES-128 block which would be 33ns per packet numb=
er in the
<br>&gt;&gt; above example.
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt; On 10 February 2018 at 06.18.25, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rge=
nsen
<br>&gt;&gt; (<a href=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com">mikkelfj@gmail.com</a>)=
 wrote:
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt; 98ns for 68 byte messages
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt;
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>-- =20
<br>Kazuho Oku
<br></div></div></span></blockquote></body></html>

--001a114fd4c815943a05650279f4--


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Hi Brian,

We're clearly in violent agreement about both the potential to make intelli=
gent
use of this measurement nibble, and the desirability of *some* troubleshoot=
ing
helper. Thanks for proposing to include this discussion in the spin bit tab=
le.

As it turns out, we do have concrete illustrations to show there, on real
networks and long distances. But beyond that, I'd like to "probe" this grou=
p for
a possible veto before digging further: while I have no doubt about an even=
tual
consensus among us "troubleshooters", I'm more worried by the other side of=
 the=20
board: people primarily concerned about ossification and linkability, to wh=
om
network debugging is at best a secondary goal.

More precisely, as you accurately described, the position of the cursor of =
both
tradeoffs may display a kind of threshold for acceptability by them :

- endpoint vs midpoint complexity: if the tool is too easy on the midpoint,
active Murphies will come in ; at kind of entry barrier should be set -- ho=
w high ?

- fidelity: the coarser, or the more delayed, the better, since it preclude=
s any
real-time feedback loop like active Murphies do ; what is the minimum
degradation that is needed ?




On 12/02/2018 10:20, Brian Trammell (IETF) wrote:
> hi Mikkel, Igor, Alexandre, all,
>
> Engineering is fun, but let's step back a bit. :)
>
> It looks like we're exploring a space of proposals that have different
> tradeoffs for the patterns of loss and reordering they can easily make
> visible, tradeoffs for sender (endpoint) versus observer (midpoint)
> complexity, and tradeoffs for fidelity versus overhead.
>
> In any case, it seems like it is possible to design a signal that would b=
e a
> vast improvement (from the measurement utility standpoint) over no signal=
 and
> no discernible pattern in the packet number that will fit in bits scaveng=
ed
> from the Type field of the short header, i.e., the bandwidth overhead wil=
l be
> *zero*, because otherwise in an encrypted-PN world we just have to grease
> those bits anyway.
>
> Back to Alexandre's question:
>
> Do we want to do this?
>
> Rephrased: Is the passive measurability of loss, reordering (and, if we
> consider the spin bit as one of the measurement bits, latency) of QUIC
> important to us, or do we decide we can live with the negative pressure a
> complete loss of visibility and an vast increase in diagnostic complexity
> will place on deployment?
>
> Note, of course, that all the proposals we have so far represent a decrea=
se
> in visibility and an increase in complexity of measurement compared to
> passive measurement of TCP. New tools will have to be developed. But the =
loss
> of visibility is minimal compared to blackout, and the deployability and
> feasibility of all of these is far, far better than an SSLKEYLOGFILE-based
> debugging approach, especially in the interdomain case.
>
> I've heard at least one dismissal of this whole space as being too abstra=
ct
> to take seriously. (I'm not concerned, but maybe I've been staring at net=
work
> measurement both passive and active for too long to know what's intuitive
> anymore.) Let me then suggest a way forward:
>
> I've announced a table at the London hackathon for "Transport Measurabili=
ty"
> (see https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/101hackathon), which we
> intend to set up in the vicinity of QUIC. This was originally intended as=
 the
> "Spin Bit" table, and we (from ETH) will be there working on scalable,
> open-source passive measurement tools both for the spin bit as well as for
> the current TCP TSOPT and SEQ/ACK methodologies (as a basis of comparison,
> mainly; at least in the case of the spin bit we so far believe the explic=
it
> signal=9C to have superior usability compared to current TCP measurement)=
. I
> suggest we expand the scope of table to hack on various signals for loss =
and
> reordering, and to compare their complexity and fidelity against the loss=
 and
> reordering patterns we want visibility into. One output of this work coul=
d be
> a (smaller) set of suggestion(s) for which signal(s) to add, so that those
> who want to have concrete proposals to evaluate can do so.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Brian
>
> [...]





>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message----- From: alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com
>>>> [alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com] Received: Saturday, 10 Feb 2018,
>>>> 12:34PM To: quic@ietf.org [quic@ietf.org] Subject: Measurement bit(s)
>>>> or not
>>>>
>>>> On 07/02/2018 14:34, Brian Trammell (IETF) wrote:
>>>>> hi Jana,
>>>>>
>>>>>> 3. Some sequencing information -- a few bits of the packet number
>>>>>> perhaps -- should be revealed (for monitoring. Number of bits
>>>>>> TBD.)
>>>>>
>>>>> This is the crux of the argument. On one side we have the risk of
>>>>> misuse and ossification (well, not ossification -- these bits are
>>>>> *meant* for the path -- rather the risk that we'll figure out later
>>>>> that we specified the wrong thing), on the other side we have the
>>>>> loss of visibility into how QUIC traffic interacts with the network
>>>>> as compared to TCP, with a side question of whether or not this
>>>>> visibility is really the transport layer's problem despite the
>>>>> evolution the practice of diagnostics and troubleshooting using TCP
>>>>> information.
>>>>>
>>>>> If we can come to agreement on this question, everything else falls
>>>>> into place. I have my arguments here, but as you said, this subthread
>>>>> is not the place for them. :)
>>>>
>>>> The crux indeed. So what about settling it first ?
>>>>
>>>> With the troubleshooting hat, I can only stress the need for
>>>> measurement bits, for the benefit of everybody, since s**t happens,
>>>> networks are imperfect, and nifty encapsulations-with-seqnum will
>>>> simply not be where you need them.
>>>>
>>>> Now to the exact nature of these measurement bits:
>>>>
>>>> Thanks to the detailed exchanges on this thread, it is by now clear
>>>> that a simple gapless counter, even nonzero-based and XORed, is not
>>>> acceptable. The 4-bit SSN comes pretty close but is not enough when
>>>> things go really wrong (and they will - and that's where we need the
>>>> tool).
>>>>
>>>> Then Kazuho's square signal and Mikkel's Pi (or any other consensual
>>>> self-synchronizing sequence) ramification came up. They are both
>>>> appealing for their elegance and low complexity on QUIC endpoints.
>>>> Beyond their quirks acknowledged here, here are a few considerations
>>>> for troubleshooting:
>>>>
>>>> (1) Since reordering is less of a concern to QUIC than to TCP, it
>>>> becomes a secondary goal. This is nice, because the square doesn't see
>>>> it, and the self-synchronizing sequence will only tolerate a mild one,
>>>> and never see its detail like cycle length etc.
>>>>
>>>> (2) There's of course a huge difference between them in complexity for
>>>> the midpoint: square is trivial, Pi is hefty.
>>>>
>>>> Given these, a benevolent, troubleshooting-minded passive midpoint will
>>>> clearly vote for the square. Now the obvious question is: is this
>>>> acceptable, or deemed too easy for a Murphy, Inc. active middlebox to
>>>> see upstream losses and benevolently wreak havoc by delaying packets ?
>>>>
>>>> ______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________


___________________________________________________________________________=
______________________________________________

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From nobody Mon Feb 12 04:35:10 2018
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From: "Brian Trammell (IETF)" <ietf@trammell.ch>
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Subject: Re: Measurement bit(s) or not
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 13:35:02 +0100
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To: Alexandre Ferrieux <alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com>
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hi Alexandre,

> On 12 Feb 2018, at 12:56, alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com wrote:
>=20
> Hi Brian,
>=20
> We're clearly in violent agreement about both the potential to make =
intelligent
> use of this measurement nibble, and the desirability of *some* =
troubleshooting
> helper. Thanks for proposing to include this discussion in the spin =
bit table.
>=20
> As it turns out, we do have concrete illustrations to show there, on =
real
> networks and long distances. But beyond that, I'd like to "probe" this =
group for
> a possible veto before digging further: while I have no doubt about an =
eventual
> consensus among us "troubleshooters", I'm more worried by the other =
side of the board: people primarily concerned about ossification and =
linkability, to whom
> network debugging is at best a secondary goal.
>=20
> More precisely, as you accurately described, the position of the =
cursor of both
> tradeoffs may display a kind of threshold for acceptability by them :
>=20
> - endpoint vs midpoint complexity: if the tool is too easy on the =
midpoint,
> active Murphies will come in ; at kind of entry barrier should be set =
-- how high ?
>=20
> - fidelity: the coarser, or the more delayed, the better, since it =
precludes any
> real-time feedback loop like active Murphies do ; what is the minimum
> degradation that is needed ?
>=20

While our experience with TCP here provides ample, loud warning about =
the dangers of letting the middle know too much, IMO these worries are a =
little misplaced with QUIC.

Two important things to note:

(1) A middlebox that speaks TCP can modify the header without breaking =
the connection, and it knows which ACK belongs with which packet. It has =
a wide variety of actions available to it: it can delay or drop packets; =
coalesce, delay, or even falsify ACKs; manipulate seq/ack and timestamps =
(though I don't know of any that do the latter), and so on. A middlebox =
that understands QUIC can only delay or drop a packet.

(2) Nobody will buy (or build and deploy) middlebox that can't even =
pretend to solve a problem. If we've designed QUIC such that selective =
drop or delay of packets based only on path-observable latency and loss =
will improve performance for anyone, we have done something horribly =
wrong.

In general, the cost of deriving a measurement from a signal should be =
paid by the user of the measurement, not the endpoint generating the =
signal (principle 3 from Principles for Measurability in Protocol Design =
(https://arxiv.org/pdf/1612.02902.pdf) if you're playing along at home =
:). This isn't meant to make it harder to mess something up, rather to =
make it so easy to implement the signal at the endpoint that doing so =
isn't seen as a negative tradeoff.

Fidelity is a hard one. Some troubleshooting tasks turn on the pattern =
of losses, which means you really want to know *which* packet was lost. =
Again, knowing which packet was lost doesn't give a QUIC-understanding =
measurement box as much freedom to get things wrong as the equivalent =
TCP box.

Cheers,

Brian



>=20
>=20
> On 12/02/2018 10:20, Brian Trammell (IETF) wrote:
>> hi Mikkel, Igor, Alexandre, all,
>>=20
>> Engineering is fun, but let's step back a bit. :)
>>=20
>> It looks like we're exploring a space of proposals that have =
different
>> tradeoffs for the patterns of loss and reordering they can easily =
make
>> visible, tradeoffs for sender (endpoint) versus observer (midpoint)
>> complexity, and tradeoffs for fidelity versus overhead.
>>=20
>> In any case, it seems like it is possible to design a signal that =
would be a
>> vast improvement (from the measurement utility standpoint) over no =
signal and
>> no discernible pattern in the packet number that will fit in bits =
scavenged
>> from the Type field of the short header, i.e., the bandwidth overhead =
will be
>> *zero*, because otherwise in an encrypted-PN world we just have to =
grease
>> those bits anyway.
>>=20
>> Back to Alexandre's question:
>>=20
>> Do we want to do this?
>>=20
>> Rephrased: Is the passive measurability of loss, reordering (and, if =
we
>> consider the spin bit as one of the measurement bits, latency) of =
QUIC
>> important to us, or do we decide we can live with the negative =
pressure a
>> complete loss of visibility and an vast increase in diagnostic =
complexity
>> will place on deployment?
>>=20
>> Note, of course, that all the proposals we have so far represent a =
decrease
>> in visibility and an increase in complexity of measurement compared =
to
>> passive measurement of TCP. New tools will have to be developed. But =
the loss
>> of visibility is minimal compared to blackout, and the deployability =
and
>> feasibility of all of these is far, far better than an =
SSLKEYLOGFILE-based
>> debugging approach, especially in the interdomain case.
>>=20
>> I've heard at least one dismissal of this whole space as being too =
abstract
>> to take seriously. (I'm not concerned, but maybe I've been staring at =
network
>> measurement both passive and active for too long to know what's =
intuitive
>> anymore.) Let me then suggest a way forward:
>>=20
>> I've announced a table at the London hackathon for "Transport =
Measurability"
>> (see https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/101hackathon), =
which we
>> intend to set up in the vicinity of QUIC. This was originally =
intended as the
>> "Spin Bit" table, and we (from ETH) will be there working on =
scalable,
>> open-source passive measurement tools both for the spin bit as well =
as for
>> the current TCP TSOPT and SEQ/ACK methodologies (as a basis of =
comparison,
>> mainly; at least in the case of the spin bit we so far believe the =
explicit
>> signal=C5=93 to have superior usability compared to current TCP =
measurement). I
>> suggest we expand the scope of table to hack on various signals for =
loss and
>> reordering, and to compare their complexity and fidelity against the =
loss and
>> reordering patterns we want visibility into. One output of this work =
could be
>> a (smaller) set of suggestion(s) for which signal(s) to add, so that =
those
>> who want to have concrete proposals to evaluate can do so.
>>=20
>> Cheers,
>>=20
>> Brian
>>=20
>> [...]
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com
>>>>> [alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com] Received: Saturday, 10 Feb 2018,
>>>>> 12:34PM To: quic@ietf.org [quic@ietf.org] Subject: Measurement =
bit(s)
>>>>> or not
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On 07/02/2018 14:34, Brian Trammell (IETF) wrote:
>>>>>> hi Jana,
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> 3. Some sequencing information -- a few bits of the packet =
number
>>>>>>> perhaps -- should be revealed (for monitoring. Number of bits
>>>>>>> TBD.)
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> This is the crux of the argument. On one side we have the risk of
>>>>>> misuse and ossification (well, not ossification -- these bits are
>>>>>> *meant* for the path -- rather the risk that we'll figure out =
later
>>>>>> that we specified the wrong thing), on the other side we have the
>>>>>> loss of visibility into how QUIC traffic interacts with the =
network
>>>>>> as compared to TCP, with a side question of whether or not this
>>>>>> visibility is really the transport layer's problem despite the
>>>>>> evolution the practice of diagnostics and troubleshooting using =
TCP
>>>>>> information.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> If we can come to agreement on this question, everything else =
falls
>>>>>> into place. I have my arguments here, but as you said, this =
subthread
>>>>>> is not the place for them. :)
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The crux indeed. So what about settling it first ?
>>>>>=20
>>>>> With the troubleshooting hat, I can only stress the need for
>>>>> measurement bits, for the benefit of everybody, since s**t =
happens,
>>>>> networks are imperfect, and nifty encapsulations-with-seqnum will
>>>>> simply not be where you need them.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Now to the exact nature of these measurement bits:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Thanks to the detailed exchanges on this thread, it is by now =
clear
>>>>> that a simple gapless counter, even nonzero-based and XORed, is =
not
>>>>> acceptable. The 4-bit SSN comes pretty close but is not enough =
when
>>>>> things go really wrong (and they will - and that's where we need =
the
>>>>> tool).
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Then Kazuho's square signal and Mikkel's Pi (or any other =
consensual
>>>>> self-synchronizing sequence) ramification came up. They are both
>>>>> appealing for their elegance and low complexity on QUIC endpoints.
>>>>> Beyond their quirks acknowledged here, here are a few =
considerations
>>>>> for troubleshooting:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> (1) Since reordering is less of a concern to QUIC than to TCP, it
>>>>> becomes a secondary goal. This is nice, because the square doesn't =
see
>>>>> it, and the self-synchronizing sequence will only tolerate a mild =
one,
>>>>> and never see its detail like cycle length etc.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> (2) There's of course a huge difference between them in complexity =
for
>>>>> the midpoint: square is trivial, Pi is hefty.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Given these, a benevolent, troubleshooting-minded passive midpoint =
will
>>>>> clearly vote for the square. Now the obvious question is: is this
>>>>> acceptable, or deemed too easy for a Murphy, Inc. active middlebox =
to
>>>>> see upstream losses and benevolently wreak havoc by delaying =
packets ?
>>>>>=20
>>>>> =
__________________________________________________________________________=
_______________________________________________
>=20
>=20
> =
__________________________________________________________________________=
_______________________________________________
>=20
> Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations =
confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc
> pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez =
recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler
> a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les =
messages electroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, =
deforme ou falsifie. Merci.
>=20
> This message and its attachments may contain confidential or =
privileged information that may be protected by law;
> they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.
> If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and =
delete this message and its attachments.
> As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have =
been modified, changed or falsified.
> Thank you.
>=20


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From nobody Mon Feb 12 06:00:58 2018
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Subject: Re: Measurement bit(s) or not
From: "Gorry (erg)" <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>
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In-Reply-To: <27669_1518436598_5A8180F6_27669_174_1_5A8180F8.6020705@orange.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 15:00:02 +0100
Cc: "Brian Trammell (IETF)" <ietf@trammell.ch>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>
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References: <1817_1518284090_5A7F2D3A_1817_79_1_5A7F2D3E.4050806@orange.com> <aa7a56d01f0a41fe9ad0fd9e61c54c50@usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com> <CAN1APddOWZRF6FxiEcJ4MbOpMwxqHm9=LbMB92pVkdUJNMuMyQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAN1APdcTH=oHdf=wixJZXOCCXcaYKR1ZkJQLDpndRdehuKfvBA@mail.gmail.com> <19F415EA-DC06-4FEE-8AFA-8A6EBEBB9AFA@trammell.ch> <27669_1518436598_5A8180F6_27669_174_1_5A8180F8.6020705@orange.com>
To: Alexandre Ferrieux <alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com>
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/quic/3o_ufu7TwHEfEXl1Vf5QKeMHnXE>
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Since this is now discussing issues that relate to any new protocol at the t=
ransport layer, I would be interested in understanding the impacts on curren=
t practice. I have written:
draft-fairhurst-tsvwg-transport-encrypt-06

To explore some of these topics across a wider front than just QUIC. Thought=
s welcome,

Gorry=20

> On 12 Feb 2018, at 12:56, <alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com> <alexandre.ferri=
eux@orange.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Brian,
>=20
> We're clearly in violent agreement about both the potential to make intell=
igent
> use of this measurement nibble, and the desirability of *some* troubleshoo=
ting
> helper. Thanks for proposing to include this discussion in the spin bit ta=
ble.
>=20
> As it turns out, we do have concrete illustrations to show there, on real
> networks and long distances. But beyond that, I'd like to "probe" this gro=
up for
> a possible veto before digging further: while I have no doubt about an eve=
ntual
> consensus among us "troubleshooters", I'm more worried by the other side o=
f the board: people primarily concerned about ossification and linkability, t=
o whom
> network debugging is at best a secondary goal.
>=20
> More precisely, as you accurately described, the position of the cursor of=
 both
> tradeoffs may display a kind of threshold for acceptability by them :
>=20
> - endpoint vs midpoint complexity: if the tool is too easy on the midpoint=
,
> active Murphies will come in ; at kind of entry barrier should be set -- h=
ow high ?
>=20
> - fidelity: the coarser, or the more delayed, the better, since it preclud=
es any
> real-time feedback loop like active Murphies do ; what is the minimum
> degradation that is needed ?
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> On 12/02/2018 10:20, Brian Trammell (IETF) wrote:
>> hi Mikkel, Igor, Alexandre, all,
>>=20
>> Engineering is fun, but let's step back a bit. :)
>>=20
>> It looks like we're exploring a space of proposals that have different
>> tradeoffs for the patterns of loss and reordering they can easily make
>> visible, tradeoffs for sender (endpoint) versus observer (midpoint)
>> complexity, and tradeoffs for fidelity versus overhead.
>>=20
>> In any case, it seems like it is possible to design a signal that would b=
e a
>> vast improvement (from the measurement utility standpoint) over no signal=
 and
>> no discernible pattern in the packet number that will fit in bits scaveng=
ed
>> from the Type field of the short header, i.e., the bandwidth overhead wil=
l be
>> *zero*, because otherwise in an encrypted-PN world we just have to grease=

>> those bits anyway.
>>=20
>> Back to Alexandre's question:
>>=20
>> Do we want to do this?
>>=20
>> Rephrased: Is the passive measurability of loss, reordering (and, if we
>> consider the spin bit as one of the measurement bits, latency) of QUIC
>> important to us, or do we decide we can live with the negative pressure a=

>> complete loss of visibility and an vast increase in diagnostic complexity=

>> will place on deployment?
>>=20
>> Note, of course, that all the proposals we have so far represent a decrea=
se
>> in visibility and an increase in complexity of measurement compared to
>> passive measurement of TCP. New tools will have to be developed. But the l=
oss
>> of visibility is minimal compared to blackout, and the deployability and
>> feasibility of all of these is far, far better than an SSLKEYLOGFILE-base=
d
>> debugging approach, especially in the interdomain case.
>>=20
>> I've heard at least one dismissal of this whole space as being too abstra=
ct
>> to take seriously. (I'm not concerned, but maybe I've been staring at net=
work
>> measurement both passive and active for too long to know what's intuitive=

>> anymore.) Let me then suggest a way forward:
>>=20
>> I've announced a table at the London hackathon for "Transport Measurabili=
ty"
>> (see https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/101hackathon), which we=

>> intend to set up in the vicinity of QUIC. This was originally intended as=
 the
>> "Spin Bit" table, and we (from ETH) will be there working on scalable,
>> open-source passive measurement tools both for the spin bit as well as fo=
r
>> the current TCP TSOPT and SEQ/ACK methodologies (as a basis of comparison=
,
>> mainly; at least in the case of the spin bit we so far believe the explic=
it
>> signal=C5=93 to have superior usability compared to current TCP measureme=
nt). I
>> suggest we expand the scope of table to hack on various signals for loss a=
nd
>> reordering, and to compare their complexity and fidelity against the loss=
 and
>> reordering patterns we want visibility into. One output of this work coul=
d be
>> a (smaller) set of suggestion(s) for which signal(s) to add, so that thos=
e
>> who want to have concrete proposals to evaluate can do so.
>>=20
>> Cheers,
>>=20
>> Brian
>>=20
>> [...]
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com
>>>>> [alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com] Received: Saturday, 10 Feb 2018,
>>>>> 12:34PM To: quic@ietf.org [quic@ietf.org] Subject: Measurement bit(s)
>>>>> or not
>>>>>=20
>>>>>> On 07/02/2018 14:34, Brian Trammell (IETF) wrote:
>>>>>> hi Jana,
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> 3. Some sequencing information -- a few bits of the packet number
>>>>>>> perhaps -- should be revealed (for monitoring. Number of bits
>>>>>>> TBD.)
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> This is the crux of the argument. On one side we have the risk of
>>>>>> misuse and ossification (well, not ossification -- these bits are
>>>>>> *meant* for the path -- rather the risk that we'll figure out later
>>>>>> that we specified the wrong thing), on the other side we have the
>>>>>> loss of visibility into how QUIC traffic interacts with the network
>>>>>> as compared to TCP, with a side question of whether or not this
>>>>>> visibility is really the transport layer's problem despite the
>>>>>> evolution the practice of diagnostics and troubleshooting using TCP
>>>>>> information.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> If we can come to agreement on this question, everything else falls
>>>>>> into place. I have my arguments here, but as you said, this subthread=

>>>>>> is not the place for them. :)
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The crux indeed. So what about settling it first ?
>>>>>=20
>>>>> With the troubleshooting hat, I can only stress the need for
>>>>> measurement bits, for the benefit of everybody, since s**t happens,
>>>>> networks are imperfect, and nifty encapsulations-with-seqnum will
>>>>> simply not be where you need them.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Now to the exact nature of these measurement bits:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Thanks to the detailed exchanges on this thread, it is by now clear
>>>>> that a simple gapless counter, even nonzero-based and XORed, is not
>>>>> acceptable. The 4-bit SSN comes pretty close but is not enough when
>>>>> things go really wrong (and they will - and that's where we need the
>>>>> tool).
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Then Kazuho's square signal and Mikkel's Pi (or any other consensual
>>>>> self-synchronizing sequence) ramification came up. They are both
>>>>> appealing for their elegance and low complexity on QUIC endpoints.
>>>>> Beyond their quirks acknowledged here, here are a few considerations
>>>>> for troubleshooting:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> (1) Since reordering is less of a concern to QUIC than to TCP, it
>>>>> becomes a secondary goal. This is nice, because the square doesn't see=

>>>>> it, and the self-synchronizing sequence will only tolerate a mild one,=

>>>>> and never see its detail like cycle length etc.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> (2) There's of course a huge difference between them in complexity for=

>>>>> the midpoint: square is trivial, Pi is hefty.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Given these, a benevolent, troubleshooting-minded passive midpoint wil=
l
>>>>> clearly vote for the square. Now the obvious question is: is this
>>>>> acceptable, or deemed too easy for a Murphy, Inc. active middlebox to
>>>>> see upstream losses and benevolently wreak havoc by delaying packets ?=

>>>>>=20
>>>>> ______________________________________________________________________=
___________________________________________________
>=20
>=20
> __________________________________________________________________________=
_______________________________________________
>=20
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lectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration,
> Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou=
 falsifie. Merci.
>=20
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formation that may be protected by law;
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--Apple-Mail-84123B3A-4B2E-4B1D-8D62-9953CC610CB8
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div></div><div><br></div><div>Since this i=
s now discussing issues that relate to any new protocol at the transport lay=
er, I would be interested in understanding the impacts on current practice. I=
 have written:</div><div><h2 style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; font-weight: 4=
00; line-height: 1.1; margin-top: 21px; margin-bottom: 10.5px;"><small style=
=3D"box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 1; font-size: 23px; background-colo=
r: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">draft-fairhurst-tsvwg-transport-encrypt-06</smal=
l></h2></div><div><small style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 1; fo=
nt-size: 23px; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><br></small></div>=
<div><small style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 1; font-size: 23px=
; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">To explore some of these topics=
 across a wider front than just QUIC. Thoughts welcome,</small></div><div><s=
mall style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 1; font-size: 23px; backg=
round-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><br></small></div><div><small style=3D=
"box-sizing: border-box; line-height: 1; font-size: 23px; background-color: r=
gba(255, 255, 255, 0);">Gorry&nbsp;</small></div><div><br>On 12 Feb 2018, at=
 12:56, &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com">alexandre.ferri=
eux@orange.com</a>&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com">=
alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D=
"cite"><div><span>Hi Brian,</span><br><span></span><br><span>We're clearly i=
n violent agreement about both the potential to make intelligent</span><br><=
span>use of this measurement nibble, and the desirability of *some* troubles=
hooting</span><br><span>helper. Thanks for proposing to include this discuss=
ion in the spin bit table.</span><br><span></span><br><span>As it turns out,=
 we do have concrete illustrations to show there, on real</span><br><span>ne=
tworks and long distances. But beyond that, I'd like to "probe" this group f=
or</span><br><span>a possible veto before digging further: while I have no d=
oubt about an eventual</span><br><span>consensus among us "troubleshooters",=
 I'm more worried by the other side of the board: people primarily concerned=
 about ossification and linkability, to whom</span><br><span>network debuggi=
ng is at best a secondary goal.</span><br><span></span><br><span>More precis=
ely, as you accurately described, the position of the cursor of both</span><=
br><span>tradeoffs may display a kind of threshold for acceptability by them=
 :</span><br><span></span><br><span>- endpoint vs midpoint complexity: if th=
e tool is too easy on the midpoint,</span><br><span>active Murphies will com=
e in ; at kind of entry barrier should be set -- how high ?</span><br><span>=
</span><br><span>- fidelity: the coarser, or the more delayed, the better, s=
ince it precludes any</span><br><span>real-time feedback loop like active Mu=
rphies do ; what is the minimum</span><br><span>degradation that is needed ?=
</span><br><span></span><br><span></span><br><span></span><br><span></span><=
br><span>On 12/02/2018 10:20, Brian Trammell (IETF) wrote:</span><br><blockq=
uote type=3D"cite"><span>hi Mikkel, Igor, Alexandre, all,</span><br></blockq=
uote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote typ=
e=3D"cite"><span>Engineering is fun, but let's step back a bit. :)</span><br=
></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><block=
quote type=3D"cite"><span>It looks like we're exploring a space of proposals=
 that have different</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>=
tradeoffs for the patterns of loss and reordering they can easily make</span=
><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>visible, tradeoffs for sen=
der (endpoint) versus observer (midpoint)</span><br></blockquote><blockquote=
 type=3D"cite"><span>complexity, and tradeoffs for fidelity versus overhead.=
</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span></span><br></blockqu=
ote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>In any case, it seems like it is possibl=
e to design a signal that would be a</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=
=3D"cite"><span>vast improvement (from the measurement utility standpoint) o=
ver no signal and</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>no d=
iscernible pattern in the packet number that will fit in bits scavenged</spa=
n><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>from the Type field of th=
e short header, i.e., the bandwidth overhead will be</span><br></blockquote>=
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>*zero*, because otherwise in an encrypted-PN=
 world we just have to grease</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cit=
e"><span>those bits anyway.</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"=
><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>Back to Alexa=
ndre's question:</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span></sp=
an><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>Do we want to do this?</=
span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span></span><br></blockquot=
e><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>Rephrased: Is the passive measurability of=
 loss, reordering (and, if we</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cit=
e"><span>consider the spin bit as one of the measurement bits, latency) of Q=
UIC</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>important to us, o=
r do we decide we can live with the negative pressure a</span><br></blockquo=
te><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>complete loss of visibility and an vast i=
ncrease in diagnostic complexity</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"=
cite"><span>will place on deployment?</span><br></blockquote><blockquote typ=
e=3D"cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>Not=
e, of course, that all the proposals we have so far represent a decrease</sp=
an><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>in visibility and an inc=
rease in complexity of measurement compared to</span><br></blockquote><block=
quote type=3D"cite"><span>passive measurement of TCP. New tools will have to=
 be developed. But the loss</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"=
><span>of visibility is minimal compared to blackout, and the deployability a=
nd</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>feasibility of all=
 of these is far, far better than an SSLKEYLOGFILE-based</span><br></blockqu=
ote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>debugging approach, especially in the in=
terdomain case.</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span></spa=
n><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>I've heard at least one d=
ismissal of this whole space as being too abstract</span><br></blockquote><b=
lockquote type=3D"cite"><span>to take seriously. (I'm not concerned, but may=
be I've been staring at network</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"c=
ite"><span>measurement both passive and active for too long to know what's i=
ntuitive</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>anymore.) Le=
t me then suggest a way forward:</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"=
cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>I've ann=
ounced a table at the London hackathon for "Transport Measurability"</span><=
br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>(see <a href=3D"https://trac=
.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/101hackathon">https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ie=
tf/meeting/wiki/101hackathon</a>), which we</span><br></blockquote><blockquo=
te type=3D"cite"><span>intend to set up in the vicinity of QUIC. This was or=
iginally intended as the</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><s=
pan>"Spin Bit" table, and we (from ETH) will be there working on scalable,</=
span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>open-source passive me=
asurement tools both for the spin bit as well as for</span><br></blockquote>=
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>the current TCP TSOPT and SEQ/ACK methodolog=
ies (as a basis of comparison,</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"ci=
te"><span>mainly; at least in the case of the spin bit we so far believe the=
 explicit</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>signal=C5=93=
 to have superior usability compared to current TCP measurement). I</span><b=
r></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>suggest we expand the scope o=
f table to hack on various signals for loss and</span><br></blockquote><bloc=
kquote type=3D"cite"><span>reordering, and to compare their complexity and f=
idelity against the loss and</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite=
"><span>reordering patterns we want visibility into. One output of this work=
 could be</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>a (smaller)=
 set of suggestion(s) for which signal(s) to add, so that those</span><br></=
blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>who want to have concrete proposa=
ls to evaluate can do so.</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><=
span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>Cheers,</span><=
br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blo=
ckquote type=3D"cite"><span>Brian</span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D=
"cite"><span></span><br></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>[...]</=
span><br></blockquote><span></span><br><span></span><br><span></span><br><sp=
an></span><br><span></span><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D=
"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span></span><br>=
</blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite=
"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"ci=
te"><span>-----Original Message----- From: <a href=3D"mailto:alexandre.ferri=
eux@orange.com">alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com</a></span><br></blockquote></b=
lockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote ty=
pe=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>[<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com">alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com</a=
>] Received: Saturday, 10 Feb 2018,</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></bl=
ockquote></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><b=
lockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>12:34PM To: <a href=3D=
"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@ietf.org</a> [<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">q=
uic@ietf.org</a>] Subject: Measurement bit(s)</span><br></blockquote></block=
quote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D=
"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>or not</spa=
n><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type=3D=
"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D=
"cite"><span></span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>=
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite=
"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>On 07/02/2018 14:34, Brian Trammell (IETF)=
 wrote:</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><block=
quote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blo=
ckquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>hi Jana,</span><br></b=
lockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote ty=
pe=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote t=
ype=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span></span><br></blockquote></block=
quote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><bloc=
kquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><bl=
ockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>3. Some sequencing in=
formation -- a few bits of the packet number</span><br></blockquote></blockq=
uote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type=3D=
"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D=
"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>perhaps -- s=
hould be revealed (for monitoring. Number of bits</span><br></blockquote></b=
lockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote ty=
pe=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote t=
ype=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>TBD.)=
</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>=
</blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote=
 type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span></s=
pan><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><bl=
ockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><=
blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>This is the crux of=
 the argument. On one side we have the risk of</span><br></blockquote></bloc=
kquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blo=
ckquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><b=
lockquote type=3D"cite"><span>misuse and ossification (well, not ossificatio=
n -- these bits are</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></block=
quote></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><bloc=
kquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><sp=
an>*meant* for the path -- rather the risk that we'll figure out later</span=
><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><block=
quote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blo=
ckquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>that we specified the w=
rong thing), on the other side we have the</span><br></blockquote></blockquo=
te></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockqu=
ote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><block=
quote type=3D"cite"><span>loss of visibility into how QUIC traffic interacts=
 with the network</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockqu=
ote></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockq=
uote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span=
>as compared to TCP, with a side question of whether or not this</span><br><=
/blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote t=
ype=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote=
 type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>visibility is really the tran=
sport layer's problem despite the</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></bloc=
kquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D=
"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D=
"cite"><span>evolution the practice of diagnostics and troubleshooting using=
 TCP</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockqu=
ote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"=
cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>information.=
</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>=
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite=
"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span></span><br></blo=
ckquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type=
=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote ty=
pe=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>If we can come to agreement on t=
his question, everything else falls</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></bl=
ockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote typ=
e=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote t=
ype=3D"cite"><span>into place. I have my arguments here, but as you said, th=
is subthread</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><=
/blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote t=
ype=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>is no=
t the place for them. :)</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></=
blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">=
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span></span><br></block=
quote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><bloc=
kquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><sp=
an>The crux indeed. So what about settling it first ?</span><br></blockquote=
></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquot=
e type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span></=
span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote typ=
e=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote t=
ype=3D"cite"><span>With the troubleshooting hat, I can only stress the need f=
or</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote=
 type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquo=
te type=3D"cite"><span>measurement bits, for the benefit of everybody, since=
 s**t happens,</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote=
><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cit=
e"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>networks are imperfect, and nifty encapsu=
lations-with-seqnum will</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></=
blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote t=
ype=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>simply not be where you need th=
em.</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquot=
e type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockqu=
ote type=3D"cite"><span></span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></=
blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote t=
ype=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>Now to the exact nature of thes=
e measurement bits:</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></block=
quote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D=
"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span></span><br></blockquote></blockquote>=
</blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite=
"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>Thanks to the de=
tailed exchanges on this thread, it is by now clear</span><br></blockquote><=
/blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote t=
ype=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>that a=
 simple gapless counter, even nonzero-based and XORed, is not</span><br></bl=
ockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><b=
lockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">=
<span>acceptable. The 4-bit SSN comes pretty close but is not enough when</s=
pan><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type=
=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote ty=
pe=3D"cite"><span>things go really wrong (and they will - and that's where w=
e need the</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><bl=
ockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><=
blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>tool).</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></=
blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">=
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span></span><br></block=
quote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><bloc=
kquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><sp=
an>Then Kazuho's square signal and Mikkel's Pi (or any other consensual</spa=
n><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type=3D=
"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D=
"cite"><span>self-synchronizing sequence) ramification came up. They are bot=
h</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote t=
ype=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote=
 type=3D"cite"><span>appealing for their elegance and low complexity on QUIC=
 endpoints.</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><b=
lockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">=
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>Beyond their quirks acknowledged here, here a=
re a few considerations</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></b=
lockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote ty=
pe=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>for troubleshooting:</span><br><=
/blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"=
><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cit=
e"><span></span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blo=
ckquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><b=
lockquote type=3D"cite"><span>(1) Since reordering is less of a concern to Q=
UIC than to TCP, it</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></block=
quote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D=
"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>becomes a secondary goal. This is nic=
e, because the square doesn't see</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></bloc=
kquote></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blo=
ckquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>it, and the self-synch=
ronizing sequence will only tolerate a mild one,</span><br></blockquote></bl=
ockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote typ=
e=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>and nev=
er see its detail like cycle length etc.</span><br></blockquote></blockquote=
></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cit=
e"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span></span><br></bl=
ockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><b=
lockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">=
<span>(2) There's of course a huge difference between them in complexity for=
</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote t=
ype=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote=
 type=3D"cite"><span>the midpoint: square is trivial, Pi is hefty.</span><br=
></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cit=
e"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"c=
ite"><span></span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><b=
lockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">=
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>Given these, a benevolent, troubleshooting-m=
inded passive midpoint will</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote=
></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquot=
e type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>clearly vote for the square.=
 Now the obvious question is: is this</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></=
blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite">=
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>acceptable, or dee=
med too easy for a Murphy, Inc. active middlebox to</span><br></blockquote><=
/blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote t=
ype=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>see u=
pstream losses and benevolently wreak havoc by delaying packets ?</span><br>=
</blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite=
"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"ci=
te"><span></span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><bl=
ockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><=
blockquote type=3D"cite"><span>_____________________________________________=
____________________________________________________________________________=
</span><br></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><span></span>=
<br><span></span><br><span>_________________________________________________=
________________________________________________________________________</sp=
an><br><span></span><br><span>Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent conte=
nir des informations confidentielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc</spa=
n><br><span>pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vou=
s avez recu ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler</span><br><span>a l'=
expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages electro=
niques etant susceptibles d'alteration,</span><br><span>Orange decline toute=
 responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou falsifie. Merci.</spa=
n><br><span></span><br><span>This message and its attachments may contain co=
nfidential or privileged information that may be protected by law;</span><br=
><span>they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation.=
</span><br><span>If you have received this email in error, please notify the=
 sender and delete this message and its attachments.</span><br><span>As emai=
ls may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been modified=
, changed or falsified.</span><br><span>Thank you.</span><br></div></blockqu=
ote></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail-84123B3A-4B2E-4B1D-8D62-9953CC610CB8--


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Subject: Re: ECN in QUIC connection migration 
From: =?utf-8?Q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
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Hi Ingemar,

two points.=20

I think it would be good to be as explicit as possible here, therefore I =
would prefer if an endpoint that knows that it can not access the ECN IP =
bits indicates this directly in the handshake. In this case no further =
testing is needed.

Further, the path testing itself is independent of QUIC and can be used =
for any protocol. Moreover, it=E2=80=99s more complicated than just =
testing ECT. I guess the general advice here is to remember which =
codepoints were send and compare this to the feedback provided. If =
discrepancies are observed that indicate that a middlebox has changed =
these bits, all packets should be marked as no-ECT (while additional =
testing MAY be performed at any later point in time). However, how =
exactly this testing should look like, should not be specified in this =
doc (but more generally).

Mirja


> Am 09.02.2018 um 08:34 schrieb Ingemar Johansson S =
<ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>:
>=20
> Hi Eric, Koen + others
> =20
> Thanks for the comments and the update. A question to the rest of the =
audience, does the presented text explain sufficiently enough how ECN =
works with connection migration ?
> =
https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/wiki/ECN-in-QUIC#transport-draft-con=
nection-migration
> =20
> =20
> /Ingemar
> =20
> =20
> From: De Schepper, Koen (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) =
[mailto:koen.de_schepper@nokia-bell-labs.com]=20
> Sent: den 2 februari 2018 15:44
> To: ekinnear@apple.com; Ingemar Johansson S =
<ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>
> Cc: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>; Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>; =
Lubashev, Igor <ilubashe@akamai.com>; Christian Huitema =
<huitema@huitema.net>
> Subject: RE: ECN in QUIC connection migration
> =20
> Hi Ingemar,
> =20
> I also read again through the document, and had following comments:
> =20
> I replaced:
> =E2=80=9CThe ACK_ECN frame is used to convey ACKs when the ECN =
capability exchange concludes that ECN should be used for the given =
connection.=E2=80=9D
> Originally it sounds as if the counters are not echoed anymore if the =
ECN capability check fails. I assume this was not the intention, but if =
it is: First, we don=E2=80=99t have a protocol or decision point defined =
when that condition is met (sender should let the receiver know in the =
next packet), and second, I would always send the echo, as we might =
=E2=80=9Ctry again later (with another ECT?)=E2=80=9D, or might decide =
to use the ECN bits differently later.
> =20
> I also changed the text around the connection migration, I think =
before Eric reviewed it. I made it such that every new path creates a =
new connection state with an initialized congestion control state and =
ECN counters (at least ECN counters reset to 0s). Not sure if this =
matches with the other sections in the QUIC draft.
> =20
> I also had the thought whether it was really needed to have the 2 =
cases. I agree we should simplify, by just starting over and doing the =
check unconditionally whether it was successful or not in a previous =
path.
> =20
> Regards,
> Koen.
> =20
> From: ekinnear@apple.com [mailto:ekinnear@apple.com]=20
> Sent: Friday, February 2, 2018 12:02 AM
> To: Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>
> Cc: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>; Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>; =
Lubashev, Igor <ilubashe@akamai.com>; Christian Huitema =
<huitema@huitema.net>; De Schepper, Koen (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) =
<koen.de_schepper@nokia-bell-labs.com>
> Subject: Re: ECN in QUIC connection migration
> =20
> Hi Ingemar,=20
> =20
> This generally looks good to me!
> A few questions and observations:=20
> =20
> There are two unique cases:
>=20
>                 =E2=80=A2 ECN capability check successful at initial =
connection setup
>                 =E2=80=A2 ECN capability check failed at initial =
connection setup
> =20
> Are these actually any different in terms of action taken by an =
endpoint?
> It seems like on the new network path the endpoint would go through =
the same process of: (a) verify ECN capability and if successful to =
whatever degree then (b) run the rest of the ECN machinery as =
appropriate.
> =20
> In other words, as long as you allow people to start using ECN upon =
migration (in other words, to allow starting it after the initial =
connection establishment), then the specifics for ECN with migration is =
essentially one statement, which is =E2=80=9Cdo the ECN process on each =
new network path that you use=E2=80=9D.=20
> =20
> Connection migration has impact on the number of reported CE marked =
packets. A new connection state with new congestion control state and =
ECN counters is instantiated at the sender and receiver. The ECN =
counters MUST start from zero again.
> =20
> This seems fine to me, it=E2=80=99s inline with the rest of the =
congestion control/loss recovery state that also needs to be reset for =
the new path.=20
> =20
> Given that each migration requires at least one exchange of packets at =
the beginning (at the very least for address validation from the side of =
the endpoint that didn=E2=80=99t migrate), it seems like that=E2=80=99s =
an excellent moment to mark the packets and perform the ECN capability =
detection. Those packets are also likely padded, etc. similar to initial =
packets since they=E2=80=99re on a previously unused network path.=20
> =20
> I think the current proposed requirement of just using the =E2=80=9Cfirs=
t=E2=80=9D packets and marking those is sufficient (and good to avoid =
any requirement as to which frames are contained in those packets), =
since we are always exchanging packets in both directions immediately =
after migration.=20
> =20
> This has the added benefit such that any endpoint =E2=80=9Cprobing=E2=80=
=9D possible network paths could include the bits necessary to detect =
ECN capability on the path being probed, so it could even know before =
migrating whether or not it would be able to use ECN on that new path.=20=

> =20
> Thanks,
> Eric
> =20
> =20
> =20
>=20
> On Feb 1, 2018, at 3:07 AM, Ingemar Johansson S =
<ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com> wrote:
> =20
> Hi
> I have written up different aspects of connection migration and how it =
plays with ECN.
> =
https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/wiki/ECN-in-QUIC#transport-draft-con=
nection-migration
> =20
> A caveat.. I am a bit unsure about the definition of connection =
migration . My interpretation is that a client moves to a new IP address =
due to e.g. a NAT rebind or switch from WiFi to cellular, right ?. Is a =
new connection instantiated at a connection migration ?=20
> =20
> /Ingemar
> =20
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> Ingemar Johansson  M.Sc.
> Master Researcher
> =20
> Ericsson Research
> Network Protocols & E2E Performance
> Labratoriegr=C3=A4nd 11
> 971 28, Lule=C3=A5, Sweden
> Phone +46-1071 43042
> SMS/MMS +46-73 078 3289
> ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com
> www.ericsson.com
> =20
>                  You can't start a fire
>   Worrying 'bout your little world falling apart
>                Bruce Springsteen
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D


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Subject: Re: ECN in QUIC connection migration
To: =?UTF-8?Q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>,  Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>
Cc: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>,  "De Schepper, Koen (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" <koen.de_schepper@nokia-bell-labs.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>,  Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>, "ekinnear@apple.com" <ekinnear@apple.com>,  "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>
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--001a1140d9446776c2056505b856
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I haven=E2=80=99t followed the ECN discussion very closely, but I miss a di=
scussion
of possible abuse scenarios and how to avoid them.

On 12 February 2018 at 16.26.32, Mirja K=C3=BChlewind (
mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch) wrote:

Hi Ingemar,

two points.

I think it would be good to be as explicit as possible here, therefore I
would prefer if an endpoint that knows that it can not access the ECN IP
bits indicates this directly in the handshake. In this case no further
testing is needed.

Further, the path testing itself is independent of QUIC and can be used for
any protocol. Moreover, it=E2=80=99s more complicated than just testing ECT=
. I
guess the general advice here is to remember which codepoints were send and
compare this to the feedback provided. If discrepancies are observed that
indicate that a middlebox has changed these bits, all packets should be
marked as no-ECT (while additional testing MAY be performed at any later
point in time). However, how exactly this testing should look like, should
not be specified in this doc (but more generally).

Mirja


> Am 09.02.2018 um 08:34 schrieb Ingemar Johansson S <
ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>:
>
> Hi Eric, Koen + others
>
> Thanks for the comments and the update. A question to the rest of the
audience, does the presented text explain sufficiently enough how ECN works
with connection migration ?
>
https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/wiki/ECN-in-QUIC#transport-draft-conn=
ection-migration
>
>
> /Ingemar
>
>
> From: De Schepper, Koen (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) [mailto:
koen.de_schepper@nokia-bell-labs.com]
> Sent: den 2 februari 2018 15:44
> To: ekinnear@apple.com; Ingemar Johansson S <
ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>
> Cc: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>; Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>; Lubashev,
Igor <ilubashe@akamai.com>; Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
> Subject: RE: ECN in QUIC connection migration
>
> Hi Ingemar,
>
> I also read again through the document, and had following comments:
>
> I replaced:
> =E2=80=9CThe ACK_ECN frame is used to convey ACKs when the ECN capability
exchange concludes that ECN should be used for the given connection.=E2=80=
=9D
> Originally it sounds as if the counters are not echoed anymore if the ECN
capability check fails. I assume this was not the intention, but if it is:
First, we don=E2=80=99t have a protocol or decision point defined when that
condition is met (sender should let the receiver know in the next packet),
and second, I would always send the echo, as we might =E2=80=9Ctry again la=
ter
(with another ECT?)=E2=80=9D, or might decide to use the ECN bits different=
ly
later.
>
> I also changed the text around the connection migration, I think before
Eric reviewed it. I made it such that every new path creates a new
connection state with an initialized congestion control state and ECN
counters (at least ECN counters reset to 0s). Not sure if this matches with
the other sections in the QUIC draft.
>
> I also had the thought whether it was really needed to have the 2 cases.
I agree we should simplify, by just starting over and doing the check
unconditionally whether it was successful or not in a previous path.
>
> Regards,
> Koen.
>
> From: ekinnear@apple.com [mailto:ekinnear@apple.com]
> Sent: Friday, February 2, 2018 12:02 AM
> To: Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>
> Cc: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>; Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>; Lubashev,
Igor <ilubashe@akamai.com>; Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>; De
Schepper, Koen (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) <koen.de_schepper@nokia-bell-labs.com>
> Subject: Re: ECN in QUIC connection migration
>
> Hi Ingemar,
>
> This generally looks good to me!
> A few questions and observations:
>
> There are two unique cases:
>
> =E2=80=A2 ECN capability check successful at initial connection setup
> =E2=80=A2 ECN capability check failed at initial connection setup
>
> Are these actually any different in terms of action taken by an endpoint?
> It seems like on the new network path the endpoint would go through the
same process of: (a) verify ECN capability and if successful to whatever
degree then (b) run the rest of the ECN machinery as appropriate.
>
> In other words, as long as you allow people to start using ECN upon
migration (in other words, to allow starting it after the initial
connection establishment), then the specifics for ECN with migration is
essentially one statement, which is =E2=80=9Cdo the ECN process on each new=
 network
path that you use=E2=80=9D.
>
> Connection migration has impact on the number of reported CE marked
packets. A new connection state with new congestion control state and ECN
counters is instantiated at the sender and receiver. The ECN counters MUST
start from zero again.
>
> This seems fine to me, it=E2=80=99s inline with the rest of the congestio=
n
control/loss recovery state that also needs to be reset for the new path.
>
> Given that each migration requires at least one exchange of packets at
the beginning (at the very least for address validation from the side of
the endpoint that didn=E2=80=99t migrate), it seems like that=E2=80=99s an =
excellent moment
to mark the packets and perform the ECN capability detection. Those packets
are also likely padded, etc. similar to initial packets since they=E2=80=99=
re on a
previously unused network path.
>
> I think the current proposed requirement of just using the =E2=80=9Cfirst=
=E2=80=9D
packets and marking those is sufficient (and good to avoid any requirement
as to which frames are contained in those packets), since we are always
exchanging packets in both directions immediately after migration.
>
> This has the added benefit such that any endpoint =E2=80=9Cprobing=E2=80=
=9D possible
network paths could include the bits necessary to detect ECN capability on
the path being probed, so it could even know before migrating whether or
not it would be able to use ECN on that new path.
>
> Thanks,
> Eric
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 1, 2018, at 3:07 AM, Ingemar Johansson S <
ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com> wrote:
>
> Hi
> I have written up different aspects of connection migration and how it
plays with ECN.
>
https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/wiki/ECN-in-QUIC#transport-draft-conn=
ection-migration
>
> A caveat.. I am a bit unsure about the definition of connection migration
. My interpretation is that a client moves to a new IP address due to e.g.
a NAT rebind or switch from WiFi to cellular, right ?. Is a new connection
instantiated at a connection migration ?
>
> /Ingemar
>
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> Ingemar Johansson M.Sc.
> Master Researcher
>
> Ericsson Research
> Network Protocols & E2E Performance
> Labratoriegr=C3=A4nd 11
> 971 28, Lule=C3=A5, Sweden
> Phone +46-1071 43042
> SMS/MMS +46-73 078 3289
> ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com
> www.ericsson.com
>
> You can't start a fire
> Worrying 'bout your little world falling apart
> Bruce Springsteen
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

--001a1140d9446776c2056505b856
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">I haven=E2=80=99t fo=
llowed the ECN discussion very closely, but I miss a discussion of possible=
 abuse scenarios and how to avoid them.</div> <br><p class=3D"airmail_on">O=
n 12 February 2018 at 16.26.32, Mirja K=C3=BChlewind (<a href=3D"mailto:mir=
ja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch">mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch</a>) wrote:</=
p> <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq"><span><div><div></div><div>=
Hi Ingemar,
<br>
<br>two points. =20
<br>
<br>I think it would be good to be as explicit as possible here, therefore =
I would prefer if an endpoint that knows that it can not access the ECN IP =
bits indicates this directly in the handshake. In this case no further test=
ing is needed.
<br>
<br>Further, the path testing itself is independent of QUIC and can be used=
 for any protocol. Moreover, it=E2=80=99s more complicated than just testin=
g ECT. I guess the general advice here is to remember which codepoints were=
 send and compare this to the feedback provided. If discrepancies are obser=
ved that indicate that a middlebox has changed these bits, all packets shou=
ld be marked as no-ECT (while additional testing MAY be performed at any la=
ter point in time). However, how exactly this testing should look like, sho=
uld not be specified in this doc (but more generally).
<br>
<br>Mirja
<br>
<br>
<br>&gt; Am 09.02.2018 um 08:34 schrieb Ingemar Johansson S &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com">ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com</=
a>&gt;:
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; Hi Eric, Koen + others
<br>&gt;  =20
<br>&gt; Thanks for the comments and the update. A question to the rest of =
the audience, does the presented text explain sufficiently enough how ECN w=
orks with connection migration ?
<br>&gt; <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/wiki/ECN-in-QUIC#=
transport-draft-connection-migration">https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts=
/wiki/ECN-in-QUIC#transport-draft-connection-migration</a>
<br>&gt;  =20
<br>&gt;  =20
<br>&gt; /Ingemar
<br>&gt;  =20
<br>&gt;  =20
<br>&gt; From: De Schepper, Koen (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) [mailto:<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:koen.de_schepper@nokia-bell-labs.com">koen.de_schepper@nokia-bell-labs=
.com</a>] =20
<br>&gt; Sent: den 2 februari 2018 15:44
<br>&gt; To: <a href=3D"mailto:ekinnear@apple.com">ekinnear@apple.com</a>; =
Ingemar Johansson S &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com"=
>ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com</a>&gt;
<br>&gt; Cc: QUIC WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@ietf.org</a>=
&gt;; Ian Swett &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ianswett@google.com">ianswett@google.=
com</a>&gt;; Lubashev, Igor &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ilubashe@akamai.com">ilub=
ashe@akamai.com</a>&gt;; Christian Huitema &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:huitema@hu=
itema.net">huitema@huitema.net</a>&gt;
<br>&gt; Subject: RE: ECN in QUIC connection migration
<br>&gt;  =20
<br>&gt; Hi Ingemar,
<br>&gt;  =20
<br>&gt; I also read again through the document, and had following comments=
:
<br>&gt;  =20
<br>&gt; I replaced:
<br>&gt; =E2=80=9CThe ACK_ECN frame is used to convey ACKs when the ECN cap=
ability exchange concludes that ECN should be used for the given connection=
.=E2=80=9D
<br>&gt; Originally it sounds as if the counters are not echoed anymore if =
the ECN capability check fails. I assume this was not the intention, but if=
 it is: First, we don=E2=80=99t have a protocol or decision point defined w=
hen that condition is met (sender should let the receiver know in the next =
packet), and second, I would always send the echo, as we might =E2=80=9Ctry=
 again later (with another ECT?)=E2=80=9D, or might decide to use the ECN b=
its differently later.
<br>&gt;  =20
<br>&gt; I also changed the text around the connection migration, I think b=
efore Eric reviewed it. I made it such that every new path creates a new co=
nnection state with an initialized congestion control state and ECN counter=
s (at least ECN counters reset to 0s). Not sure if this matches with the ot=
her sections in the QUIC draft.
<br>&gt;  =20
<br>&gt; I also had the thought whether it was really needed to have the 2 =
cases. I agree we should simplify, by just starting over and doing the chec=
k unconditionally whether it was successful or not in a previous path.
<br>&gt;  =20
<br>&gt; Regards,
<br>&gt; Koen.
<br>&gt;  =20
<br>&gt; From: <a href=3D"mailto:ekinnear@apple.com">ekinnear@apple.com</a>=
 [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ekinnear@apple.com">ekinnear@apple.com</a>] =20
<br>&gt; Sent: Friday, February 2, 2018 12:02 AM
<br>&gt; To: Ingemar Johansson S &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ingemar.s.johansson@=
ericsson.com">ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com</a>&gt;
<br>&gt; Cc: QUIC WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@ietf.org</a>=
&gt;; Ian Swett &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ianswett@google.com">ianswett@google.=
com</a>&gt;; Lubashev, Igor &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ilubashe@akamai.com">ilub=
ashe@akamai.com</a>&gt;; Christian Huitema &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:huitema@hu=
itema.net">huitema@huitema.net</a>&gt;; De Schepper, Koen (Nokia - BE/Antwe=
rp) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:koen.de_schepper@nokia-bell-labs.com">koen.de_sch=
epper@nokia-bell-labs.com</a>&gt;
<br>&gt; Subject: Re: ECN in QUIC connection migration
<br>&gt;  =20
<br>&gt; Hi Ingemar, =20
<br>&gt;  =20
<br>&gt; This generally looks good to me!
<br>&gt; A few questions and observations: =20
<br>&gt;  =20
<br>&gt; There are two unique cases:
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt;                 =E2=80=A2 ECN capability check successful at initi=
al connection setup
<br>&gt;                 =E2=80=A2 ECN capability check failed at initial c=
onnection setup
<br>&gt;  =20
<br>&gt; Are these actually any different in terms of action taken by an en=
dpoint?
<br>&gt; It seems like on the new network path the endpoint would go throug=
h the same process of: (a) verify ECN capability and if successful to whate=
ver degree then (b) run the rest of the ECN machinery as appropriate.
<br>&gt;  =20
<br>&gt; In other words, as long as you allow people to start using ECN upo=
n migration (in other words, to allow starting it after the initial connect=
ion establishment), then the specifics for ECN with migration is essentiall=
y one statement, which is =E2=80=9Cdo the ECN process on each new network p=
ath that you use=E2=80=9D. =20
<br>&gt;  =20
<br>&gt; Connection migration has impact on the number of reported CE marke=
d packets. A new connection state with new congestion control state and ECN=
 counters is instantiated at the sender and receiver. The ECN counters MUST=
 start from zero again.
<br>&gt;  =20
<br>&gt; This seems fine to me, it=E2=80=99s inline with the rest of the co=
ngestion control/loss recovery state that also needs to be reset for the ne=
w path. =20
<br>&gt;  =20
<br>&gt; Given that each migration requires at least one exchange of packet=
s at the beginning (at the very least for address validation from the side =
of the endpoint that didn=E2=80=99t migrate), it seems like that=E2=80=99s =
an excellent moment to mark the packets and perform the ECN capability dete=
ction. Those packets are also likely padded, etc. similar to initial packet=
s since they=E2=80=99re on a previously unused network path. =20
<br>&gt;  =20
<br>&gt; I think the current proposed requirement of just using the =E2=80=
=9Cfirst=E2=80=9D packets and marking those is sufficient (and good to avoi=
d any requirement as to which frames are contained in those packets), since=
 we are always exchanging packets in both directions immediately after migr=
ation. =20
<br>&gt;  =20
<br>&gt; This has the added benefit such that any endpoint =E2=80=9Cprobing=
=E2=80=9D possible network paths could include the bits necessary to detect=
 ECN capability on the path being probed, so it could even know before migr=
ating whether or not it would be able to use ECN on that new path. =20
<br>&gt;  =20
<br>&gt; Thanks,
<br>&gt; Eric
<br>&gt;  =20
<br>&gt;  =20
<br>&gt;  =20
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; On Feb 1, 2018, at 3:07 AM, Ingemar Johansson S &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com">ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com</a>&=
gt; wrote:
<br>&gt;  =20
<br>&gt; Hi
<br>&gt; I have written up different aspects of connection migration and ho=
w it plays with ECN.
<br>&gt; <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/wiki/ECN-in-QUIC#=
transport-draft-connection-migration">https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts=
/wiki/ECN-in-QUIC#transport-draft-connection-migration</a>
<br>&gt;  =20
<br>&gt; A caveat.. I am a bit unsure about the definition of connection mi=
gration . My interpretation is that a client moves to a new IP address due =
to e.g. a NAT rebind or switch from WiFi to cellular, right ?. Is a new con=
nection instantiated at a connection migration ? =20
<br>&gt;  =20
<br>&gt; /Ingemar
<br>&gt;  =20
<br>&gt; =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
<br>&gt; Ingemar Johansson  M.Sc.
<br>&gt; Master Researcher
<br>&gt;  =20
<br>&gt; Ericsson Research
<br>&gt; Network Protocols &amp; E2E Performance
<br>&gt; Labratoriegr=C3=A4nd 11
<br>&gt; 971 28, Lule=C3=A5, Sweden
<br>&gt; Phone +46-1071 43042
<br>&gt; SMS/MMS +46-73 078 3289
<br>&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com">ingemar.s.joha=
nsson@ericsson.com</a>
<br>&gt; <a href=3D"http://www.ericsson.com">www.ericsson.com</a>
<br>&gt;  =20
<br>&gt;                  You can&#39;t start a fire
<br>&gt;   Worrying &#39;bout your little world falling apart
<br>&gt;                Bruce Springsteen
<br>&gt; =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
<br>
<br></div></div></span></blockquote></body></html>

--001a1140d9446776c2056505b856--


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Subject: Re: ECN in QUIC connection migration
From: =?utf-8?Q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
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Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 16:43:36 +0100
Cc: Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, "De Schepper, Koen (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" <koen.de_schepper@nokia-bell-labs.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>, "ekinnear@apple.com" <ekinnear@apple.com>, "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>
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What do you mean by abuse scenarios? However, I would guess again that =
this is not a quic specific discussion and should probably rather happen =
in tsvwg which is the group that is maintain ECN in general.

Mirja


> Am 12.02.2018 um 16:42 schrieb Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen =
<mikkelfj@gmail.com>:
>=20
> I haven=E2=80=99t followed the ECN discussion very closely, but I miss =
a discussion of possible abuse scenarios and how to avoid them.
>=20
> On 12 February 2018 at 16.26.32, Mirja K=C3=BChlewind =
(mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch) wrote:
>=20
>> Hi Ingemar,=20
>>=20
>> two points. =20
>>=20
>> I think it would be good to be as explicit as possible here, =
therefore I would prefer if an endpoint that knows that it can not =
access the ECN IP bits indicates this directly in the handshake. In this =
case no further testing is needed.=20
>>=20
>> Further, the path testing itself is independent of QUIC and can be =
used for any protocol. Moreover, it=E2=80=99s more complicated than just =
testing ECT. I guess the general advice here is to remember which =
codepoints were send and compare this to the feedback provided. If =
discrepancies are observed that indicate that a middlebox has changed =
these bits, all packets should be marked as no-ECT (while additional =
testing MAY be performed at any later point in time). However, how =
exactly this testing should look like, should not be specified in this =
doc (but more generally).=20
>>=20
>> Mirja=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> > Am 09.02.2018 um 08:34 schrieb Ingemar Johansson S =
<ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>:=20
>> > =20
>> > Hi Eric, Koen + others=20
>> > =20
>> > Thanks for the comments and the update. A question to the rest of =
the audience, does the presented text explain sufficiently enough how =
ECN works with connection migration ?=20
>> > =
https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/wiki/ECN-in-QUIC#transport-draft-con=
nection-migration=20
>> > =20
>> > =20
>> > /Ingemar=20
>> > =20
>> > =20
>> > From: De Schepper, Koen (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) =
[mailto:koen.de_schepper@nokia-bell-labs.com] =20
>> > Sent: den 2 februari 2018 15:44=20
>> > To: ekinnear@apple.com; Ingemar Johansson S =
<ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>=20
>> > Cc: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>; Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>; =
Lubashev, Igor <ilubashe@akamai.com>; Christian Huitema =
<huitema@huitema.net>=20
>> > Subject: RE: ECN in QUIC connection migration=20
>> > =20
>> > Hi Ingemar,=20
>> > =20
>> > I also read again through the document, and had following comments:=20=

>> > =20
>> > I replaced:=20
>> > =E2=80=9CThe ACK_ECN frame is used to convey ACKs when the ECN =
capability exchange concludes that ECN should be used for the given =
connection.=E2=80=9D=20
>> > Originally it sounds as if the counters are not echoed anymore if =
the ECN capability check fails. I assume this was not the intention, but =
if it is: First, we don=E2=80=99t have a protocol or decision point =
defined when that condition is met (sender should let the receiver know =
in the next packet), and second, I would always send the echo, as we =
might =E2=80=9Ctry again later (with another ECT?)=E2=80=9D, or might =
decide to use the ECN bits differently later.=20
>> > =20
>> > I also changed the text around the connection migration, I think =
before Eric reviewed it. I made it such that every new path creates a =
new connection state with an initialized congestion control state and =
ECN counters (at least ECN counters reset to 0s). Not sure if this =
matches with the other sections in the QUIC draft.=20
>> > =20
>> > I also had the thought whether it was really needed to have the 2 =
cases. I agree we should simplify, by just starting over and doing the =
check unconditionally whether it was successful or not in a previous =
path.=20
>> > =20
>> > Regards,=20
>> > Koen.=20
>> > =20
>> > From: ekinnear@apple.com [mailto:ekinnear@apple.com] =20
>> > Sent: Friday, February 2, 2018 12:02 AM=20
>> > To: Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>=20
>> > Cc: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>; Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>; =
Lubashev, Igor <ilubashe@akamai.com>; Christian Huitema =
<huitema@huitema.net>; De Schepper, Koen (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) =
<koen.de_schepper@nokia-bell-labs.com>=20
>> > Subject: Re: ECN in QUIC connection migration=20
>> > =20
>> > Hi Ingemar, =20
>> > =20
>> > This generally looks good to me!=20
>> > A few questions and observations: =20
>> > =20
>> > There are two unique cases:=20
>> > =20
>> > =E2=80=A2 ECN capability check successful at initial connection =
setup=20
>> > =E2=80=A2 ECN capability check failed at initial connection setup=20=

>> > =20
>> > Are these actually any different in terms of action taken by an =
endpoint?=20
>> > It seems like on the new network path the endpoint would go through =
the same process of: (a) verify ECN capability and if successful to =
whatever degree then (b) run the rest of the ECN machinery as =
appropriate.=20
>> > =20
>> > In other words, as long as you allow people to start using ECN upon =
migration (in other words, to allow starting it after the initial =
connection establishment), then the specifics for ECN with migration is =
essentially one statement, which is =E2=80=9Cdo the ECN process on each =
new network path that you use=E2=80=9D. =20
>> > =20
>> > Connection migration has impact on the number of reported CE marked =
packets. A new connection state with new congestion control state and =
ECN counters is instantiated at the sender and receiver. The ECN =
counters MUST start from zero again.=20
>> > =20
>> > This seems fine to me, it=E2=80=99s inline with the rest of the =
congestion control/loss recovery state that also needs to be reset for =
the new path. =20
>> > =20
>> > Given that each migration requires at least one exchange of packets =
at the beginning (at the very least for address validation from the side =
of the endpoint that didn=E2=80=99t migrate), it seems like that=E2=80=99s=
 an excellent moment to mark the packets and perform the ECN capability =
detection. Those packets are also likely padded, etc. similar to initial =
packets since they=E2=80=99re on a previously unused network path. =20
>> > =20
>> > I think the current proposed requirement of just using the =
=E2=80=9Cfirst=E2=80=9D packets and marking those is sufficient (and =
good to avoid any requirement as to which frames are contained in those =
packets), since we are always exchanging packets in both directions =
immediately after migration. =20
>> > =20
>> > This has the added benefit such that any endpoint =E2=80=9Cprobing=E2=
=80=9D possible network paths could include the bits necessary to detect =
ECN capability on the path being probed, so it could even know before =
migrating whether or not it would be able to use ECN on that new path. =20=

>> > =20
>> > Thanks,=20
>> > Eric=20
>> > =20
>> > =20
>> > =20
>> > =20
>> > On Feb 1, 2018, at 3:07 AM, Ingemar Johansson S =
<ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com> wrote:=20
>> > =20
>> > Hi=20
>> > I have written up different aspects of connection migration and how =
it plays with ECN.=20
>> > =
https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/wiki/ECN-in-QUIC#transport-draft-con=
nection-migration=20
>> > =20
>> > A caveat.. I am a bit unsure about the definition of connection =
migration . My interpretation is that a client moves to a new IP address =
due to e.g. a NAT rebind or switch from WiFi to cellular, right ?. Is a =
new connection instantiated at a connection migration ? =20
>> > =20
>> > /Ingemar=20
>> > =20
>> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=20
>> > Ingemar Johansson M.Sc.=20
>> > Master Researcher=20
>> > =20
>> > Ericsson Research=20
>> > Network Protocols & E2E Performance=20
>> > Labratoriegr=C3=A4nd 11=20
>> > 971 28, Lule=C3=A5, Sweden=20
>> > Phone +46-1071 43042=20
>> > SMS/MMS +46-73 078 3289=20
>> > ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com=20
>> > www.ericsson.com=20
>> > =20
>> > You can't start a fire=20
>> > Worrying 'bout your little world falling apart=20
>> > Bruce Springsteen=20
>> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D


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References: <HE1PR0702MB36252D61A7A51B848B5DA9E7C2FA0@HE1PR0702MB3625.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <639A6936-34F2-4C27-973A-EEAE878677FA@apple.com> <VI1PR0701MB2126E79A17DB715F6C91EA05B9F90@VI1PR0701MB2126.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <HE1PR0702MB36256D92C008302CBD908DE9C2F20@HE1PR0702MB3625.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <EFA61DBC-1F6F-49C2-906C-D0054F2341C7@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <CAN1APdcLO8HsT5cbbzHSvYBbBzz=3pfXLqm_2gLhZN-TiWVCbw@mail.gmail.com> <79E89348-6C18-42A7-B378-487E84E7FF31@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
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Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 07:54:53 -0800
Message-ID: <CAN1APdcCWhz3nZ9M-TLqCV7oJ0oT_nSHDOuq2cD5txoguRAXZA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: ECN in QUIC connection migration
To: =?UTF-8?Q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
Cc: "ekinnear@apple.com" <ekinnear@apple.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>,  Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>,  "De Schepper, Koen (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" <koen.de_schepper@nokia-bell-labs.com>, "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>
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I don=E2=80=99t know enough about ECN to have a qualified opinion, but I me=
an that,
for example, someone on the path might make a false impression of the
available bandwidth. It may be a general ECN discussion but I=E2=80=99d lik=
e to
know how it affects security of QUIC if made mandatory, just like there are
other sections in QUIC transport on potential attacks to be aware of.

http://web.cs.ucla.edu/~todd/research/sigcomm11.pdf
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/6993126/


Kind Regards,
Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen


On 12 February 2018 at 16.43.43, Mirja K=C3=BChlewind (
mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch) wrote:

What do you mean by abuse scenarios? However, I would guess again that this
is not a quic specific discussion and should probably rather happen in
tsvwg which is the group that is maintain ECN in general.

Mirja


> Am 12.02.2018 um 16:42 schrieb Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen <mikkelf=
j@gmail.com>:

>
> I haven=E2=80=99t followed the ECN discussion very closely, but I miss a
discussion of possible abuse scenarios and how to avoid them.
>
> On 12 February 2018 at 16.26.32, Mirja K=C3=BChlewind (
mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch) wrote:
>
>> Hi Ingemar,
>>
>> two points.
>>
>> I think it would be good to be as explicit as possible here, therefore I
would prefer if an endpoint that knows that it can not access the ECN IP
bits indicates this directly in the handshake. In this case no further
testing is needed.
>>
>> Further, the path testing itself is independent of QUIC and can be used
for any protocol. Moreover, it=E2=80=99s more complicated than just testing=
 ECT. I
guess the general advice here is to remember which codepoints were send and
compare this to the feedback provided. If discrepancies are observed that
indicate that a middlebox has changed these bits, all packets should be
marked as no-ECT (while additional testing MAY be performed at any later
point in time). However, how exactly this testing should look like, should
not be specified in this doc (but more generally).
>>
>> Mirja
>>
>>
>> > Am 09.02.2018 um 08:34 schrieb Ingemar Johansson S <
ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>:
>> >
>> > Hi Eric, Koen + others
>> >
>> > Thanks for the comments and the update. A question to the rest of the
audience, does the presented text explain sufficiently enough how ECN works
with connection migration ?
>> >
https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/wiki/ECN-in-QUIC#transport-draft-conn=
ection-migration
>> >
>> >
>> > /Ingemar
>> >
>> >
>> > From: De Schepper, Koen (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) [mailto:
koen.de_schepper@nokia-bell-labs.com]
>> > Sent: den 2 februari 2018 15:44
>> > To: ekinnear@apple.com; Ingemar Johansson S <
ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>
>> > Cc: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>; Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>;
Lubashev, Igor <ilubashe@akamai.com>; Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.ne=
t>

>> > Subject: RE: ECN in QUIC connection migration
>> >
>> > Hi Ingemar,
>> >
>> > I also read again through the document, and had following comments:
>> >
>> > I replaced:
>> > =E2=80=9CThe ACK_ECN frame is used to convey ACKs when the ECN capabil=
ity
exchange concludes that ECN should be used for the given connection.=E2=80=
=9D
>> > Originally it sounds as if the counters are not echoed anymore if the
ECN capability check fails. I assume this was not the intention, but if it
is: First, we don=E2=80=99t have a protocol or decision point defined when =
that
condition is met (sender should let the receiver know in the next packet),
and second, I would always send the echo, as we might =E2=80=9Ctry again la=
ter
(with another ECT?)=E2=80=9D, or might decide to use the ECN bits different=
ly
later.
>> >
>> > I also changed the text around the connection migration, I think
before Eric reviewed it. I made it such that every new path creates a new
connection state with an initialized congestion control state and ECN
counters (at least ECN counters reset to 0s). Not sure if this matches with
the other sections in the QUIC draft.
>> >
>> > I also had the thought whether it was really needed to have the 2
cases. I agree we should simplify, by just starting over and doing the
check unconditionally whether it was successful or not in a previous path.
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> > Koen.
>> >
>> > From: ekinnear@apple.com [mailto:ekinnear@apple.com]
>> > Sent: Friday, February 2, 2018 12:02 AM
>> > To: Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>
>> > Cc: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>; Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>;
Lubashev, Igor <ilubashe@akamai.com>; Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.ne=
t>;
De Schepper, Koen (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) <koen.de_schepper@nokia-bell-labs.co=
m>

>> > Subject: Re: ECN in QUIC connection migration
>> >
>> > Hi Ingemar,
>> >
>> > This generally looks good to me!
>> > A few questions and observations:
>> >
>> > There are two unique cases:
>> >
>> > =E2=80=A2 ECN capability check successful at initial connection setup
>> > =E2=80=A2 ECN capability check failed at initial connection setup
>> >
>> > Are these actually any different in terms of action taken by an
endpoint?
>> > It seems like on the new network path the endpoint would go through
the same process of: (a) verify ECN capability and if successful to
whatever degree then (b) run the rest of the ECN machinery as appropriate.
>> >
>> > In other words, as long as you allow people to start using ECN upon
migration (in other words, to allow starting it after the initial
connection establishment), then the specifics for ECN with migration is
essentially one statement, which is =E2=80=9Cdo the ECN process on each new=
 network
path that you use=E2=80=9D.
>> >
>> > Connection migration has impact on the number of reported CE marked
packets. A new connection state with new congestion control state and ECN
counters is instantiated at the sender and receiver. The ECN counters MUST
start from zero again.
>> >
>> > This seems fine to me, it=E2=80=99s inline with the rest of the conges=
tion
control/loss recovery state that also needs to be reset for the new path.
>> >
>> > Given that each migration requires at least one exchange of packets at
the beginning (at the very least for address validation from the side of
the endpoint that didn=E2=80=99t migrate), it seems like that=E2=80=99s an =
excellent moment
to mark the packets and perform the ECN capability detection. Those packets
are also likely padded, etc. similar to initial packets since they=E2=80=99=
re on a
previously unused network path.
>> >
>> > I think the current proposed requirement of just using the =E2=80=9Cfi=
rst=E2=80=9D
packets and marking those is sufficient (and good to avoid any requirement
as to which frames are contained in those packets), since we are always
exchanging packets in both directions immediately after migration.
>> >
>> > This has the added benefit such that any endpoint =E2=80=9Cprobing=E2=
=80=9D possible
network paths could include the bits necessary to detect ECN capability on
the path being probed, so it could even know before migrating whether or
not it would be able to use ECN on that new path.
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> > Eric
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Feb 1, 2018, at 3:07 AM, Ingemar Johansson S <
ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi
>> > I have written up different aspects of connection migration and how it
plays with ECN.
>> >
https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/wiki/ECN-in-QUIC#transport-draft-conn=
ection-migration
>> >
>> > A caveat.. I am a bit unsure about the definition of connection
migration . My interpretation is that a client moves to a new IP address
due to e.g. a NAT rebind or switch from WiFi to cellular, right ?. Is a new
connection instantiated at a connection migration ?
>> >
>> > /Ingemar
>> >
>> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>> > Ingemar Johansson M.Sc.
>> > Master Researcher
>> >
>> > Ericsson Research
>> > Network Protocols & E2E Performance
>> > Labratoriegr=C3=A4nd 11
>> > 971 28, Lule=C3=A5, Sweden
>> > Phone +46-1071 43042
>> > SMS/MMS +46-73 078 3289
>> > ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com
>> > www.ericsson.com
>> >
>> > You can't start a fire
>> > Worrying 'bout your little world falling apart
>> > Bruce Springsteen
>> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

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<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">I don=E2=80=99t know=
 enough about ECN to have a qualified opinion, but I mean that, for example=
, someone on the path might make a false impression of the available bandwi=
dth. It may be a general ECN discussion but I=E2=80=99d like to know how it=
 affects security of QUIC if made mandatory, just like there are other sect=
ions in QUIC transport on potential attacks to be aware of.</div><div id=3D=
"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;colo=
r:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_c=
ustomfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0=
,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><a href=3D"http://web.cs.ucla.edu/~t=
odd/research/sigcomm11.pdf">http://web.cs.ucla.edu/~todd/research/sigcomm11=
.pdf</a></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,A=
rial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><a h=
ref=3D"http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/6993126/">http://ieeexplore.ieee=
.org/document/6993126/</a></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-=
family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line=
-height:auto"><br></div> <br> <div id=3D"bloop_sign_1518450257330054144" cl=
ass=3D"bloop_sign"><div style=3D"font-family:helvetica,arial;font-size:13px=
">Kind Regards,</div><div style=3D"font-family:helvetica,arial;font-size:13=
px">Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen<br><br></div></div> <br><p class=3D"a=
irmail_on">On 12 February 2018 at 16.43.43, Mirja K=C3=BChlewind (<a href=
=3D"mailto:mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch">mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch=
</a>) wrote:</p> <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq"><span><div><d=
iv></div><div>What do you mean by abuse scenarios? However, I would guess a=
gain that this is not a quic specific discussion and should probably rather=
 happen in tsvwg which is the group that is maintain ECN in general.
<br>
<br>Mirja
<br>
<br>
<br>&gt; Am 12.02.2018 um 16:42 schrieb Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com">mikkelfj@gmail.com</a>&gt;:
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; I haven=E2=80=99t followed the ECN discussion very closely, but I =
miss a discussion of possible abuse scenarios and how to avoid them.
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; On 12 February 2018 at 16.26.32, Mirja K=C3=BChlewind (<a href=3D"=
mailto:mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch">mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch</a>=
) wrote:
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt;&gt; Hi Ingemar, =20
<br>&gt;&gt; =20
<br>&gt;&gt; two points.  =20
<br>&gt;&gt; =20
<br>&gt;&gt; I think it would be good to be as explicit as possible here, t=
herefore I would prefer if an endpoint that knows that it can not access th=
e ECN IP bits indicates this directly in the handshake. In this case no fur=
ther testing is needed. =20
<br>&gt;&gt; =20
<br>&gt;&gt; Further, the path testing itself is independent of QUIC and ca=
n be used for any protocol. Moreover, it=E2=80=99s more complicated than ju=
st testing ECT. I guess the general advice here is to remember which codepo=
ints were send and compare this to the feedback provided. If discrepancies =
are observed that indicate that a middlebox has changed these bits, all pac=
kets should be marked as no-ECT (while additional testing MAY be performed =
at any later point in time). However, how exactly this testing should look =
like, should not be specified in this doc (but more generally). =20
<br>&gt;&gt; =20
<br>&gt;&gt; Mirja =20
<br>&gt;&gt; =20
<br>&gt;&gt; =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; Am 09.02.2018 um 08:34 schrieb Ingemar Johansson S &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com">ingemar.s.johansson@erics=
son.com</a>&gt;: =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;  =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; Hi Eric, Koen + others =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;  =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; Thanks for the comments and the update. A question to the=
 rest of the audience, does the presented text explain sufficiently enough =
how ECN works with connection migration ? =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/wiki/ECN=
-in-QUIC#transport-draft-connection-migration">https://github.com/quicwg/ba=
se-drafts/wiki/ECN-in-QUIC#transport-draft-connection-migration</a> =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;  =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;  =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; /Ingemar =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;  =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;  =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; From: De Schepper, Koen (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) [mailto:<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:koen.de_schepper@nokia-bell-labs.com">koen.de_schepper@nokia-=
bell-labs.com</a>]  =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; Sent: den 2 februari 2018 15:44 =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; To: <a href=3D"mailto:ekinnear@apple.com">ekinnear@apple.=
com</a>; Ingemar Johansson S &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ingemar.s.johansson@eric=
sson.com">ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com</a>&gt; =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; Cc: QUIC WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@iet=
f.org</a>&gt;; Ian Swett &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ianswett@google.com">ianswet=
t@google.com</a>&gt;; Lubashev, Igor &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ilubashe@akamai.=
com">ilubashe@akamai.com</a>&gt;; Christian Huitema &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:h=
uitema@huitema.net">huitema@huitema.net</a>&gt; =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; Subject: RE: ECN in QUIC connection migration =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;  =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; Hi Ingemar, =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;  =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; I also read again through the document, and had following=
 comments: =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;  =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; I replaced: =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; =E2=80=9CThe ACK_ECN frame is used to convey ACKs when th=
e ECN capability exchange concludes that ECN should be used for the given c=
onnection.=E2=80=9D =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; Originally it sounds as if the counters are not echoed an=
ymore if the ECN capability check fails. I assume this was not the intentio=
n, but if it is: First, we don=E2=80=99t have a protocol or decision point =
defined when that condition is met (sender should let the receiver know in =
the next packet), and second, I would always send the echo, as we might =E2=
=80=9Ctry again later (with another ECT?)=E2=80=9D, or might decide to use =
the ECN bits differently later. =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;  =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; I also changed the text around the connection migration, =
I think before Eric reviewed it. I made it such that every new path creates=
 a new connection state with an initialized congestion control state and EC=
N counters (at least ECN counters reset to 0s). Not sure if this matches wi=
th the other sections in the QUIC draft. =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;  =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; I also had the thought whether it was really needed to ha=
ve the 2 cases. I agree we should simplify, by just starting over and doing=
 the check unconditionally whether it was successful or not in a previous p=
ath. =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;  =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; Regards, =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; Koen. =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;  =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; From: <a href=3D"mailto:ekinnear@apple.com">ekinnear@appl=
e.com</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:ekinnear@apple.com">ekinnear@apple.com<=
/a>]  =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; Sent: Friday, February 2, 2018 12:02 AM =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; To: Ingemar Johansson S &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ingemar.s.j=
ohansson@ericsson.com">ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com</a>&gt; =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; Cc: QUIC WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@iet=
f.org</a>&gt;; Ian Swett &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ianswett@google.com">ianswet=
t@google.com</a>&gt;; Lubashev, Igor &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ilubashe@akamai.=
com">ilubashe@akamai.com</a>&gt;; Christian Huitema &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:h=
uitema@huitema.net">huitema@huitema.net</a>&gt;; De Schepper, Koen (Nokia -=
 BE/Antwerp) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:koen.de_schepper@nokia-bell-labs.com">ko=
en.de_schepper@nokia-bell-labs.com</a>&gt; =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; Subject: Re: ECN in QUIC connection migration =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;  =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; Hi Ingemar,  =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;  =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; This generally looks good to me! =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; A few questions and observations:  =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;  =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; There are two unique cases: =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;  =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; =E2=80=A2 ECN capability check successful at initial conn=
ection setup =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; =E2=80=A2 ECN capability check failed at initial connecti=
on setup =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;  =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; Are these actually any different in terms of action taken=
 by an endpoint? =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; It seems like on the new network path the endpoint would =
go through the same process of: (a) verify ECN capability and if successful=
 to whatever degree then (b) run the rest of the ECN machinery as appropria=
te. =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;  =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; In other words, as long as you allow people to start usin=
g ECN upon migration (in other words, to allow starting it after the initia=
l connection establishment), then the specifics for ECN with migration is e=
ssentially one statement, which is =E2=80=9Cdo the ECN process on each new =
network path that you use=E2=80=9D.  =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;  =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; Connection migration has impact on the number of reported=
 CE marked packets. A new connection state with new congestion control stat=
e and ECN counters is instantiated at the sender and receiver. The ECN coun=
ters MUST start from zero again. =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;  =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; This seems fine to me, it=E2=80=99s inline with the rest =
of the congestion control/loss recovery state that also needs to be reset f=
or the new path.  =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;  =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; Given that each migration requires at least one exchange =
of packets at the beginning (at the very least for address validation from =
the side of the endpoint that didn=E2=80=99t migrate), it seems like that=
=E2=80=99s an excellent moment to mark the packets and perform the ECN capa=
bility detection. Those packets are also likely padded, etc. similar to ini=
tial packets since they=E2=80=99re on a previously unused network path.  =
=20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;  =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; I think the current proposed requirement of just using th=
e =E2=80=9Cfirst=E2=80=9D packets and marking those is sufficient (and good=
 to avoid any requirement as to which frames are contained in those packets=
), since we are always exchanging packets in both directions immediately af=
ter migration.  =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;  =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; This has the added benefit such that any endpoint =E2=80=
=9Cprobing=E2=80=9D possible network paths could include the bits necessary=
 to detect ECN capability on the path being probed, so it could even know b=
efore migrating whether or not it would be able to use ECN on that new path=
.  =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;  =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; Thanks, =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; Eric =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;  =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;  =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;  =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;  =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; On Feb 1, 2018, at 3:07 AM, Ingemar Johansson S &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com">ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson=
.com</a>&gt; wrote: =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;  =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; Hi =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; I have written up different aspects of connection migrati=
on and how it plays with ECN. =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/wiki/ECN=
-in-QUIC#transport-draft-connection-migration">https://github.com/quicwg/ba=
se-drafts/wiki/ECN-in-QUIC#transport-draft-connection-migration</a> =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;  =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; A caveat.. I am a bit unsure about the definition of conn=
ection migration . My interpretation is that a client moves to a new IP add=
ress due to e.g. a NAT rebind or switch from WiFi to cellular, right ?. Is =
a new connection instantiated at a connection migration ?  =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;  =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; /Ingemar =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;  =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; Ingemar Johansson M.Sc. =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; Master Researcher =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;  =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; Ericsson Research =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; Network Protocols &amp; E2E Performance =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; Labratoriegr=C3=A4nd 11 =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; 971 28, Lule=C3=A5, Sweden =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; Phone +46-1071 43042 =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; SMS/MMS +46-73 078 3289 =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com">ingem=
ar.s.johansson@ericsson.com</a> =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"http://www.ericsson.com">www.ericsson.com</a> =
=20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt;  =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; You can&#39;t start a fire =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; Worrying &#39;bout your little world falling apart =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; Bruce Springsteen =20
<br>&gt;&gt; &gt; =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
<br>
<br></div></div></span></blockquote></body></html>

--001a1140d94429bd04056505e633--


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Subject: Re: ECN in QUIC connection migration
From: =?utf-8?Q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
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Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 17:04:53 +0100
Cc: "ekinnear@apple.com" <ekinnear@apple.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>, Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, "De Schepper, Koen (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" <koen.de_schepper@nokia-bell-labs.com>, "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>
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ECN is an explicit congestion signal that can be used to avoid loss. ECN =
makes no assumption on how exactly the signal is generated but usually =
you need some kind of active queue management. The ECN signal is then =
used by the congestion controller at the sender, similar as loss or =
other signals are used today. It is the network decision how and when to =
signal congestion using ECN and the endpoints decision how to exactly =
react to it.

If the network sets ECN-CE even though there is no congestion it would =
likely cause a reduction in sending of that flow but it can also just =
drop some packets to achieve the same. However, as I said this is =
nothing quic-specific and should be discussed on the tsvwg list instead.



> Am 12.02.2018 um 16:54 schrieb Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen =
<mikkelfj@gmail.com>:
>=20
> I don=E2=80=99t know enough about ECN to have a qualified opinion, but =
I mean that, for example, someone on the path might make a false =
impression of the available bandwidth. It may be a general ECN =
discussion but I=E2=80=99d like to know how it affects security of QUIC =
if made mandatory, just like there are other sections in QUIC transport =
on potential attacks to be aware of.
>=20
> http://web.cs.ucla.edu/~todd/research/sigcomm11.pdf
> http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/6993126/
>=20
>=20
> Kind Regards,
> Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen
>=20
>=20
> On 12 February 2018 at 16.43.43, Mirja K=C3=BChlewind =
(mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch) wrote:
>=20
>> What do you mean by abuse scenarios? However, I would guess again =
that this is not a quic specific discussion and should probably rather =
happen in tsvwg which is the group that is maintain ECN in general.=20
>>=20
>> Mirja=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> > Am 12.02.2018 um 16:42 schrieb Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen =
<mikkelfj@gmail.com>:=20
>> > =20
>> > I haven=E2=80=99t followed the ECN discussion very closely, but I =
miss a discussion of possible abuse scenarios and how to avoid them.=20
>> > =20
>> > On 12 February 2018 at 16.26.32, Mirja K=C3=BChlewind =
(mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch) wrote:=20
>> > =20
>> >> Hi Ingemar, =20
>> >> =20
>> >> two points. =20
>> >> =20
>> >> I think it would be good to be as explicit as possible here, =
therefore I would prefer if an endpoint that knows that it can not =
access the ECN IP bits indicates this directly in the handshake. In this =
case no further testing is needed. =20
>> >> =20
>> >> Further, the path testing itself is independent of QUIC and can be =
used for any protocol. Moreover, it=E2=80=99s more complicated than just =
testing ECT. I guess the general advice here is to remember which =
codepoints were send and compare this to the feedback provided. If =
discrepancies are observed that indicate that a middlebox has changed =
these bits, all packets should be marked as no-ECT (while additional =
testing MAY be performed at any later point in time). However, how =
exactly this testing should look like, should not be specified in this =
doc (but more generally). =20
>> >> =20
>> >> Mirja =20
>> >> =20
>> >> =20
>> >> > Am 09.02.2018 um 08:34 schrieb Ingemar Johansson S =
<ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>: =20
>> >> > =20
>> >> > Hi Eric, Koen + others =20
>> >> > =20
>> >> > Thanks for the comments and the update. A question to the rest =
of the audience, does the presented text explain sufficiently enough how =
ECN works with connection migration ? =20
>> >> > =
https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/wiki/ECN-in-QUIC#transport-draft-con=
nection-migration =20
>> >> > =20
>> >> > =20
>> >> > /Ingemar =20
>> >> > =20
>> >> > =20
>> >> > From: De Schepper, Koen (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) =
[mailto:koen.de_schepper@nokia-bell-labs.com] =20
>> >> > Sent: den 2 februari 2018 15:44 =20
>> >> > To: ekinnear@apple.com; Ingemar Johansson S =
<ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com> =20
>> >> > Cc: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>; Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>; =
Lubashev, Igor <ilubashe@akamai.com>; Christian Huitema =
<huitema@huitema.net> =20
>> >> > Subject: RE: ECN in QUIC connection migration =20
>> >> > =20
>> >> > Hi Ingemar, =20
>> >> > =20
>> >> > I also read again through the document, and had following =
comments: =20
>> >> > =20
>> >> > I replaced: =20
>> >> > =E2=80=9CThe ACK_ECN frame is used to convey ACKs when the ECN =
capability exchange concludes that ECN should be used for the given =
connection.=E2=80=9D =20
>> >> > Originally it sounds as if the counters are not echoed anymore =
if the ECN capability check fails. I assume this was not the intention, =
but if it is: First, we don=E2=80=99t have a protocol or decision point =
defined when that condition is met (sender should let the receiver know =
in the next packet), and second, I would always send the echo, as we =
might =E2=80=9Ctry again later (with another ECT?)=E2=80=9D, or might =
decide to use the ECN bits differently later. =20
>> >> > =20
>> >> > I also changed the text around the connection migration, I think =
before Eric reviewed it. I made it such that every new path creates a =
new connection state with an initialized congestion control state and =
ECN counters (at least ECN counters reset to 0s). Not sure if this =
matches with the other sections in the QUIC draft. =20
>> >> > =20
>> >> > I also had the thought whether it was really needed to have the =
2 cases. I agree we should simplify, by just starting over and doing the =
check unconditionally whether it was successful or not in a previous =
path. =20
>> >> > =20
>> >> > Regards, =20
>> >> > Koen. =20
>> >> > =20
>> >> > From: ekinnear@apple.com [mailto:ekinnear@apple.com] =20
>> >> > Sent: Friday, February 2, 2018 12:02 AM =20
>> >> > To: Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com> =20
>> >> > Cc: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>; Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>; =
Lubashev, Igor <ilubashe@akamai.com>; Christian Huitema =
<huitema@huitema.net>; De Schepper, Koen (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) =
<koen.de_schepper@nokia-bell-labs.com> =20
>> >> > Subject: Re: ECN in QUIC connection migration =20
>> >> > =20
>> >> > Hi Ingemar, =20
>> >> > =20
>> >> > This generally looks good to me! =20
>> >> > A few questions and observations: =20
>> >> > =20
>> >> > There are two unique cases: =20
>> >> > =20
>> >> > =E2=80=A2 ECN capability check successful at initial connection =
setup =20
>> >> > =E2=80=A2 ECN capability check failed at initial connection =
setup =20
>> >> > =20
>> >> > Are these actually any different in terms of action taken by an =
endpoint? =20
>> >> > It seems like on the new network path the endpoint would go =
through the same process of: (a) verify ECN capability and if successful =
to whatever degree then (b) run the rest of the ECN machinery as =
appropriate. =20
>> >> > =20
>> >> > In other words, as long as you allow people to start using ECN =
upon migration (in other words, to allow starting it after the initial =
connection establishment), then the specifics for ECN with migration is =
essentially one statement, which is =E2=80=9Cdo the ECN process on each =
new network path that you use=E2=80=9D. =20
>> >> > =20
>> >> > Connection migration has impact on the number of reported CE =
marked packets. A new connection state with new congestion control state =
and ECN counters is instantiated at the sender and receiver. The ECN =
counters MUST start from zero again. =20
>> >> > =20
>> >> > This seems fine to me, it=E2=80=99s inline with the rest of the =
congestion control/loss recovery state that also needs to be reset for =
the new path. =20
>> >> > =20
>> >> > Given that each migration requires at least one exchange of =
packets at the beginning (at the very least for address validation from =
the side of the endpoint that didn=E2=80=99t migrate), it seems like =
that=E2=80=99s an excellent moment to mark the packets and perform the =
ECN capability detection. Those packets are also likely padded, etc. =
similar to initial packets since they=E2=80=99re on a previously unused =
network path. =20
>> >> > =20
>> >> > I think the current proposed requirement of just using the =
=E2=80=9Cfirst=E2=80=9D packets and marking those is sufficient (and =
good to avoid any requirement as to which frames are contained in those =
packets), since we are always exchanging packets in both directions =
immediately after migration. =20
>> >> > =20
>> >> > This has the added benefit such that any endpoint =E2=80=9Cprobing=
=E2=80=9D possible network paths could include the bits necessary to =
detect ECN capability on the path being probed, so it could even know =
before migrating whether or not it would be able to use ECN on that new =
path. =20
>> >> > =20
>> >> > Thanks, =20
>> >> > Eric =20
>> >> > =20
>> >> > =20
>> >> > =20
>> >> > =20
>> >> > On Feb 1, 2018, at 3:07 AM, Ingemar Johansson S =
<ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com> wrote: =20
>> >> > =20
>> >> > Hi =20
>> >> > I have written up different aspects of connection migration and =
how it plays with ECN. =20
>> >> > =
https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/wiki/ECN-in-QUIC#transport-draft-con=
nection-migration =20
>> >> > =20
>> >> > A caveat.. I am a bit unsure about the definition of connection =
migration . My interpretation is that a client moves to a new IP address =
due to e.g. a NAT rebind or switch from WiFi to cellular, right ?. Is a =
new connection instantiated at a connection migration ? =20
>> >> > =20
>> >> > /Ingemar =20
>> >> > =20
>> >> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D =20
>> >> > Ingemar Johansson M.Sc. =20
>> >> > Master Researcher =20
>> >> > =20
>> >> > Ericsson Research =20
>> >> > Network Protocols & E2E Performance =20
>> >> > Labratoriegr=C3=A4nd 11 =20
>> >> > 971 28, Lule=C3=A5, Sweden =20
>> >> > Phone +46-1071 43042 =20
>> >> > SMS/MMS +46-73 078 3289 =20
>> >> > ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com =20
>> >> > www.ericsson.com =20
>> >> > =20
>> >> > You can't start a fire =20
>> >> > Worrying 'bout your little world falling apart =20
>> >> > Bruce Springsteen =20
>> >> > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D


From nobody Mon Feb 12 13:01:59 2018
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From: Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>
To: =?utf-8?B?TWlra2VsIEZhaG7DuGUgSsO4cmdlbnNlbg==?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>, =?utf-8?B?TWlyamEgS8O8aGxld2luZA==?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
CC: "ekinnear@apple.com" <ekinnear@apple.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, "Ian Swett" <ianswett@google.com>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, "De Schepper, Koen (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" <koen.de_schepper@nokia-bell-labs.com>, "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>
Subject: RE: ECN in QUIC connection migration
Thread-Topic: ECN in QUIC connection migration
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From nobody Mon Feb 12 13:12:04 2018
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From: Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>
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CC: "De Schepper, Koen (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" <koen.de_schepper@nokia-bell-labs.com>, "ekinnear@apple.com" <ekinnear@apple.com>, "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>, Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
Subject: RE: ECN in QUIC connection migration 
Thread-Topic: ECN in QUIC connection migration 
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From: Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 14:11:03 -0800
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Subject: draft-duke-quic-load-balancers-00.txt
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--089e082468ec680ad505650b273a
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Based on conversations in Melbourne, I posted a straw man for a standard
way for load balancers and servers to coordinate on routable, unlinkable
connection IDs.

Datatracker:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-duke-quic-load-balancers/
Github: https://github.com/martinduke/draft-duke-quic-load-balancers

There's nothing earthshaking here: we use DTLS for authentication and
encryption, and have a few very simple UDP messages to keep the conn IDs
synced. The draft isn't very long.

I'll incorporate variable length connection IDs, etc, when and if they
enter the mainline. I'm certainly interested if this meets the needs of the
people actively looking for a solution in this space.

--089e082468ec680ad505650b273a
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Based on conversations in Melbourne, I posted a straw man =
for a standard way for load balancers and servers to coordinate on routable=
, unlinkable connection IDs.<div><br></div><div>Datatracker:=C2=A0<a href=
=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-duke-quic-load-balancers/">https=
://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-duke-quic-load-balancers/</a></div><div>G=
ithub:=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://github.com/martinduke/draft-duke-quic-load-b=
alancers">https://github.com/martinduke/draft-duke-quic-load-balancers</a><=
/div><div><br></div><div>There&#39;s nothing earthshaking here: we use DTLS=
 for authentication and encryption, and have a few very simple UDP messages=
 to keep the conn IDs synced. The draft isn&#39;t very long.</div><div><br>=
</div><div>I&#39;ll incorporate variable length connection IDs, etc, when a=
nd if they enter the mainline. I&#39;m certainly interested if this meets t=
he needs of the people actively looking for a solution in this space.</div>=
<div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div>

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From: Erik Kline <ek@google.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2018 17:34:46 -0800
Message-ID: <CAAedzxrdwHOKhXKxN90yxWh1Zcb3wmHtktMnGPXsCkXNDB6DpQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: draft-duke-quic-load-balancers-00.txt
To: Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>
Cc: IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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I wasn't in Melbourne, but I'm curious: why not specify a protocol
over QUIC itself?

In my experience, load balancers maintain connections to ~essentially~
all the backends for which they balance.  Could this protocol instead
be mapped onto streams in a QUIC connection between LB and backend?
If so, liveness via PING frames could be incorporated.

For security purposes, IP Tries of whitelisted LB IPs and/or running
this kind of thing over connections to backends on non-standard ports
is something I know is done.

On 12 February 2018 at 14:11, Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com> wrote:
> Based on conversations in Melbourne, I posted a straw man for a standard way
> for load balancers and servers to coordinate on routable, unlinkable
> connection IDs.
>
> Datatracker:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-duke-quic-load-balancers/
> Github: https://github.com/martinduke/draft-duke-quic-load-balancers
>
> There's nothing earthshaking here: we use DTLS for authentication and
> encryption, and have a few very simple UDP messages to keep the conn IDs
> synced. The draft isn't very long.
>
> I'll incorporate variable length connection IDs, etc, when and if they enter
> the mainline. I'm certainly interested if this meets the needs of the people
> actively looking for a solution in this space.
>
>
>

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Subject: Re: ECN in QUIC connection migration 
From: =?utf-8?Q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
In-Reply-To: <HE1PR0702MB3625AF6F741A89D4BD68E7CCC2F70@HE1PR0702MB3625.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 13:29:29 +0100
Cc: "De Schepper, Koen (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" <koen.de_schepper@nokia-bell-labs.com>,  "ekinnear@apple.com" <ekinnear@apple.com>, "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>, Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
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To: Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>
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Hi Ingemar,

see below.

> Am 12.02.2018 um 22:11 schrieb Ingemar Johansson S =
<ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>:
>=20
> Hi=20
>=20
> Please see inline
>=20
> BR
> Ingemar
>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Mirja K=C3=BChlewind [mailto:mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch]
>> Sent: den 12 februari 2018 16:26
>> To: Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>
>> Cc: De Schepper, Koen (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) <koen.de_schepper@nokia-
>> bell-labs.com>; ekinnear@apple.com; Lubashev, Igor
>> <ilubashe@akamai.com>; Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>; QUIC WG
>> <quic@ietf.org>; Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
>> Subject: Re: ECN in QUIC connection migration
>>=20
>> Hi Ingemar,
>>=20
>> two points.
>>=20
>> I think it would be good to be as explicit as possible here, =
therefore I would
>> prefer if an endpoint that knows that it can not access the ECN IP =
bits
>> indicates this directly in the handshake. In this case no further =
testing is
>> needed.
> <IJ> Yes, this was the original idea, we discussed this at the ECN =
QUIC side meeting though and afterwards and as far as I understand it, =
there was a consensus that it was unnecessarily complicated. So we =
selected a method where we just verify that the ECT(0),ECT(1),CE =
counters have reasonable values. If that is not the case, then it is an =
indication that either the path or the endpoints do not support ECN. =
</IJ>

I checked the minutes and could not really find a conclusion there. I =
agree that there should be no negotiation in the handshake (both =
endpoint need to implement the ECN logic as part of v1) but what would =
be helpful is to let the other end know if you already know that you =
never will be able to provide feedback because you can just not read the =
bits in the IP header. That is not complicated at all.

I think what we need to specify in v1 is a way to provide ECN feedback =
(or indicate that this is not possible). However, we actually would not =
need to say anything about how ECN should be used. That=E2=80=99s a =
sender side decision. As long as you can get feedback, we are flexible =
in how to use and test ECN in v1 or anytime later. Of course it would be =
nice to provide some default recommendations with some easy fallback =
logic but that's the part we can experiment with and change any time =
without any need to change the protocol spec (as long as ECN feedback is =
provided, when ECN is used by the sender).

>=20
>>=20
>> Further, the path testing itself is independent of QUIC and can be =
used for
>> any protocol. Moreover, it=E2=80=99s more complicated than just =
testing ECT. I guess
>> the general advice here is to remember which codepoints were send and
>> compare this to the feedback provided. If discrepancies are observed =
that
>> indicate that a middlebox has changed these bits, all packets should =
be
>> marked as no-ECT (while additional testing MAY be performed at any =
later
>> point in time). However, how exactly this testing should look like, =
should not
>> be specified in this doc (but more generally).
> <IJ> It is possible that the actual path verification can be put as a =
separate document, not sure if that is accepted by the group or it is =
desired with a more elaborate description directly in the QUIC drafts. =
As regards to verification, I do believe that the proposed counters =
should be able to detect bleaching, accidental remarking from ECT(0) to =
ECT(1) and also cases where packets are not CE marked at all despite =
other signs of congestion </IJ>

We tried to design a more elaborated testing scheme where we would send =
3 ECT0, the 3 ECT1, and the 3 CE (which we would of cause not count as a =
congestion indication as the CE was set by the sender). However, this =
was mostly to detect black-whaling which is probably less a concern than =
re-marking. I think today the most common case it that the bits will be =
set to zeros which is only a problem when there was some CE marking =
previously on the path that then would get lost. Thus in this case it =
would be recommend to not use ECN/not set packets as ECT at sender side.

However, as I said above, we probably should make recommendation how to =
use ECN by default but need to leave room for other usage/testing =
schemes. But after all the receiver being not able to read the bits and =
remarking on the path are to different things and should not be mixed =
up. If the sender can not read the bits this is know a priori and there =
is no ambiguity that needs to be tested. So why not signal it directly. =
The question if the sender can write ECN does not need to be =
communicated. There is no difference in the sender decided to not use =
ECN or it just can not use it; in both cases it is not necessary to send =
ECN feedback back. Only if a non-non-ECT is observed at the receiver, =
ECN feedback needs to be provided. However, knowing that the receiver =
can=E2=80=99t not provide feedback is important because in this case the =
sender MUST not set the packets as ECT as it will not be able to react =
to that signal. Testing the path in independent of that.

Mirja


>=20
>=20
>>=20
>> Mirja
>>=20
>>=20
>>> Am 09.02.2018 um 08:34 schrieb Ingemar Johansson S
>> <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>:
>>>=20
>>> Hi Eric, Koen + others
>>>=20
>>> Thanks for the comments and the update. A question to the rest of =
the
>> audience, does the presented text explain sufficiently enough how ECN
>> works with connection migration ?
>>> https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/wiki/ECN-in-QUIC#transport-
>> draft-connection-migration
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> /Ingemar
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> From: De Schepper, Koen (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)
>> [mailto:koen.de_schepper@nokia-bell-labs.com]
>>> Sent: den 2 februari 2018 15:44
>>> To: ekinnear@apple.com; Ingemar Johansson S
>> <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>
>>> Cc: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>; Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>;
>> Lubashev, Igor <ilubashe@akamai.com>; Christian Huitema
>> <huitema@huitema.net>
>>> Subject: RE: ECN in QUIC connection migration
>>>=20
>>> Hi Ingemar,
>>>=20
>>> I also read again through the document, and had following comments:
>>>=20
>>> I replaced:
>>> =E2=80=9CThe ACK_ECN frame is used to convey ACKs when the ECN =
capability
>> exchange concludes that ECN should be used for the given =
connection.=E2=80=9D
>>> Originally it sounds as if the counters are not echoed anymore if =
the ECN
>> capability check fails. I assume this was not the intention, but if =
it is: First, we
>> don=E2=80=99t have a protocol or decision point defined when that =
condition is met
>> (sender should let the receiver know in the next packet), and second, =
I
>> would always send the echo, as we might =E2=80=9Ctry again later =
(with another
>> ECT?)=E2=80=9D, or might decide to use the ECN bits differently =
later.
>>>=20
>>> I also changed the text around the connection migration, I think =
before Eric
>> reviewed it. I made it such that every new path creates a new =
connection
>> state with an initialized congestion control state and ECN counters =
(at least
>> ECN counters reset to 0s). Not sure if this matches with the other =
sections in
>> the QUIC draft.
>>>=20
>>> I also had the thought whether it was really needed to have the 2 =
cases. I
>> agree we should simplify, by just starting over and doing the check
>> unconditionally whether it was successful or not in a previous path.
>>>=20
>>> Regards,
>>> Koen.
>>>=20
>>> From: ekinnear@apple.com [mailto:ekinnear@apple.com]
>>> Sent: Friday, February 2, 2018 12:02 AM
>>> To: Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>
>>> Cc: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>; Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>;
>> Lubashev, Igor <ilubashe@akamai.com>; Christian Huitema
>> <huitema@huitema.net>; De Schepper, Koen (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)
>> <koen.de_schepper@nokia-bell-labs.com>
>>> Subject: Re: ECN in QUIC connection migration
>>>=20
>>> Hi Ingemar,
>>>=20
>>> This generally looks good to me!
>>> A few questions and observations:
>>>=20
>>> There are two unique cases:
>>>=20
>>>                =E2=80=A2 ECN capability check successful at initial =
connection setup
>>>                =E2=80=A2 ECN capability check failed at initial =
connection setup
>>>=20
>>> Are these actually any different in terms of action taken by an =
endpoint?
>>> It seems like on the new network path the endpoint would go through =
the
>> same process of: (a) verify ECN capability and if successful to =
whatever
>> degree then (b) run the rest of the ECN machinery as appropriate.
>>>=20
>>> In other words, as long as you allow people to start using ECN upon
>> migration (in other words, to allow starting it after the initial =
connection
>> establishment), then the specifics for ECN with migration is =
essentially one
>> statement, which is =E2=80=9Cdo the ECN process on each new network =
path that you
>> use=E2=80=9D.
>>>=20
>>> Connection migration has impact on the number of reported CE marked
>> packets. A new connection state with new congestion control state and =
ECN
>> counters is instantiated at the sender and receiver. The ECN counters =
MUST
>> start from zero again.
>>>=20
>>> This seems fine to me, it=E2=80=99s inline with the rest of the =
congestion
>> control/loss recovery state that also needs to be reset for the new =
path.
>>>=20
>>> Given that each migration requires at least one exchange of packets =
at the
>> beginning (at the very least for address validation from the side of =
the
>> endpoint that didn=E2=80=99t migrate), it seems like that=E2=80=99s =
an excellent moment to
>> mark the packets and perform the ECN capability detection. Those =
packets
>> are also likely padded, etc. similar to initial packets since =
they=E2=80=99re on a
>> previously unused network path.
>>>=20
>>> I think the current proposed requirement of just using the =
=E2=80=9Cfirst=E2=80=9D packets
>> and marking those is sufficient (and good to avoid any requirement as =
to
>> which frames are contained in those packets), since we are always
>> exchanging packets in both directions immediately after migration.
>>>=20
>>> This has the added benefit such that any endpoint =E2=80=9Cprobing=E2=80=
=9D possible
>> network paths could include the bits necessary to detect ECN =
capability on
>> the path being probed, so it could even know before migrating whether =
or
>> not it would be able to use ECN on that new path.
>>>=20
>>> Thanks,
>>> Eric
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On Feb 1, 2018, at 3:07 AM, Ingemar Johansson S
>> <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Hi
>>> I have written up different aspects of connection migration and how =
it
>> plays with ECN.
>>> https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/wiki/ECN-in-QUIC#transport-
>> draft-connection-migration
>>>=20
>>> A caveat.. I am a bit unsure about the definition of connection =
migration .
>> My interpretation is that a client moves to a new IP address due to =
e.g. a NAT
>> rebind or switch from WiFi to cellular, right ?. Is a new connection
>> instantiated at a connection migration ?
>>>=20
>>> /Ingemar
>>>=20
>>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>>> Ingemar Johansson  M.Sc.
>>> Master Researcher
>>>=20
>>> Ericsson Research
>>> Network Protocols & E2E Performance
>>> Labratoriegr=C3=A4nd 11
>>> 971 28, Lule=C3=A5, Sweden
>>> Phone +46-1071 43042
>>> SMS/MMS +46-73 078 3289
>>> ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com
>>> www.ericsson.com
>>>=20
>>>                 You can't start a fire
>>>  Worrying 'bout your little world falling apart
>>>               Bruce Springsteen
>>> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>=20


From nobody Tue Feb 13 13:55:04 2018
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Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 16:54:54 -0500
From: Dmitri Tikhonov <dtikhonov@litespeedtech.com>
To: Erik Kline <ek@google.com>
Cc: Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: draft-duke-quic-load-balancers-00.txt
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On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 05:34:46PM -0800, Erik Kline wrote:
> I wasn't in Melbourne, but I'm curious: why not specify a protocol
> over QUIC itself?

+1: As I was reading the draft, I was wondering the same thing.

  - Dmitri.


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From: Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2018 19:49:08 -0800
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Subject: Re: draft-duke-quic-load-balancers-00.txt
To: Erik Kline <ek@google.com>, Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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Oops, I didn't reply all. Repeated below:

Hi Erik,

That would certainly work. In TCP the load balancers we make have
"monitors" that open up TCP connections periodically with servers to make
sure they're there and functioning.

My thought was that a full-fledged QUIC client implementation might be a
little heavyweight for some of these devices. Certainly, if you have an
existing Linux L4 load balancer and are looking to write some lightweight
code to support QUIC, you probably already have the DTLS APIs you need
there. But I am perfectly happy to go with the consensus here.


On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 1:54 PM, Dmitri Tikhonov <
dtikhonov@litespeedtech.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 05:34:46PM -0800, Erik Kline wrote:
> > I wasn't in Melbourne, but I'm curious: why not specify a protocol
> > over QUIC itself?
>
> +1: As I was reading the draft, I was wondering the same thing.
>
>   - Dmitri.
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Oops, I didn&#39;t reply all. Repeated below:<div><br>

<span style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:1=
2.8px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:nor=
mal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;=
text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rg=
b(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;=
float:none;display:inline">Hi Erik,</span><div style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34)=
;font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px;font-style:normal;font-varia=
nt-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing=
:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:no=
rmal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-sty=
le:initial;text-decoration-color:initial"><br></div><div style=3D"color:rgb=
(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px;font-style:normal;=
font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;lett=
er-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whit=
e-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-deco=
ration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial">That would certainly wo=
rk. In TCP the load balancers we make have &quot;monitors&quot; that open u=
p TCP connections periodically with servers to make sure they&#39;re there =
and functioning.</div><div style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,s=
ans-serif;font-size:12.8px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;=
font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:s=
tart;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0p=
x;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-deco=
ration-color:initial"><br></div><div style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-fami=
ly:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatur=
es:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;te=
xt-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-=
spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial=
;text-decoration-color:initial">My thought was that a full-fledged QUIC cli=
ent implementation might be a little heavyweight for some of these devices.=
 Certainly, if you have an existing Linux L4 load balancer and are looking =
to write some lightweight code to support QUIC, you probably already have t=
he DTLS APIs you need there. But I am perfectly happy to go with the consen=
sus here.</div>

<br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">O=
n Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 1:54 PM, Dmitri Tikhonov <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:dtikhonov@litespeedtech.com" target=3D"_blank">dtikhonov@lites=
peedtech.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span =
class=3D"">On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 05:34:46PM -0800, Erik Kline wrote:<br>
&gt; I wasn&#39;t in Melbourne, but I&#39;m curious: why not specify a prot=
ocol<br>
&gt; over QUIC itself?<br>
<br>
</span>+1: As I was reading the draft, I was wondering the same thing.<br>
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
=C2=A0 - Dmitri.<br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div>

--f403043a17a05949d3056523fed1--


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From: "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>
To: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
CC: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Call for Adoption: QCRAM
Thread-Topic: Call for Adoption: QCRAM
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Having seen nothing but support, this document is adopted.

Lars

On 2018-2-5, at 7:07, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:
>=20
> In Melbourne, there was strong support (with a small amount of =
pushback which was discussed) for adopting QCRAM:
>=20
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-krasic-quic-qcram-04
>=20
> Any objections / concerns about doing so? Unless we hear otherwise, =
we'll adopt at the end of the week.
>=20
> Cheers,
>=20
> --
> Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/
>=20


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From: "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>
To: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
CC: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Call for Adoption: Invariants
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Having seen nothing but support, this document is adopted.

Lars

> On 2018-2-5, at 7:07, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:
>=20
> At the Melbourne meeting, there was strong support for adopting =
Martin's invariants draft:
>=20
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thomson-quic-invariants-00
>=20
> Any objections / concerns about doing so? Unless we hear otherwise, =
we'll adopt at the end of the week.
>=20
> Cheers,
>=20
> --
> Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/
>=20


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Subject: Re: draft-duke-quic-load-balancers-00.txt
To: Erik Kline <ek@google.com>, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>
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I was also wondering about why not using QUIC, but a load balancer does not
need to understand QUIC to route QUIC, especially not with this protocol.

But it complicates QUIC endpoints having to deal with another crypto
transport mechanism.
I don=E2=80=99t think the argument of keeping routers simpler is very stron=
g - it
may be true short term - but eventually routers will understand QUIC.

A downside to using QUIC is that routers may stick to an old version of
QUIC for a long time.

One could imagine a set of central control servers providing CID=E2=80=99s =
rather
than the QUIC server itself - this would remove some of the versioning
concern, but then bother router and QUIC server would have to connect to
the central control system. This isn=E2=80=99t so different from a MQTT
configuration and would simplify the configuration matrix.

Kind Regards,
Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen


On 14 February 2018 at 04.49.17, Martin Duke (martin.h.duke@gmail.com)
wrote:

Oops, I didn't reply all. Repeated below:

Hi Erik,

That would certainly work. In TCP the load balancers we make have
"monitors" that open up TCP connections periodically with servers to make
sure they're there and functioning.

My thought was that a full-fledged QUIC client implementation might be a
little heavyweight for some of these devices. Certainly, if you have an
existing Linux L4 load balancer and are looking to write some lightweight
code to support QUIC, you probably already have the DTLS APIs you need
there. But I am perfectly happy to go with the consensus here.


On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 1:54 PM, Dmitri Tikhonov <
dtikhonov@litespeedtech.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 05:34:46PM -0800, Erik Kline wrote:
> > I wasn't in Melbourne, but I'm curious: why not specify a protocol
> > over QUIC itself?
>
> +1: As I was reading the draft, I was wondering the same thing.
>
>   - Dmitri.
>

--001a11427686ad2ba505652890a8
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">I was also wondering=
 about why not using QUIC, but a load balancer does not need to understand =
QUIC to route QUIC, especially not with this protocol.</div><div id=3D"bloo=
p_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgb=
a(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_custom=
font" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,=
1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">But it complicates QUIC endpoints having =
to deal with another crypto transport mechanism.</div><div id=3D"bloop_cust=
omfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,=
0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">I don=E2=80=99t think the argument of k=
eeping routers simpler is very strong - it may be true short term - but eve=
ntually routers will understand QUIC.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" sty=
le=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);marg=
in:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"fo=
nt-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;l=
ine-height:auto">A downside to using QUIC is that routers may stick to an o=
ld version of QUIC for a long time.</div> <div><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_c=
ustomfont" style=3D"margin:0px">One could imagine a set of central control =
servers providing CID=E2=80=99s rather than the QUIC server itself - this w=
ould remove some of the versioning concern, but then bother router and QUIC=
 server would have to connect to the central control system. This isn=E2=80=
=99t so different from a MQTT configuration and would simplify the configur=
ation matrix.</div><div><br></div> <div id=3D"bloop_sign_151859925166964812=
8" class=3D"bloop_sign"><div style=3D"font-family:helvetica,arial;font-size=
:13px">Kind Regards,</div><div style=3D"font-family:helvetica,arial;font-si=
ze:13px">Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen<br><br></div></div> <br><p class=
=3D"airmail_on">On 14 February 2018 at 04.49.17, Martin Duke (<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:martin.h.duke@gmail.com">martin.h.duke@gmail.com</a>) wrote:</p> <bloc=
kquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq"><span><div><div></div><div>


<title></title>


<div dir=3D"ltr">Oops, I didn&#39;t reply all. Repeated below:
<div><br>
<span style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:1=
2.8px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:nor=
mal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;=
text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rg=
b(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial;=
float:none;display:inline">
Hi Erik,</span>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12=
.8px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:norm=
al;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;t=
ext-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb=
(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial">
<br></div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12=
.8px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:norm=
al;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;t=
ext-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb=
(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial">
That would certainly work. In TCP the load balancers we make have
&quot;monitors&quot; that open up TCP connections periodically with servers
to make sure they&#39;re there and functioning.</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12=
.8px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:norm=
al;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;t=
ext-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb=
(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial">
<br></div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12=
.8px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:norm=
al;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;t=
ext-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb=
(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial">
My thought was that a full-fledged QUIC client implementation might
be a little heavyweight for some of these devices. Certainly, if
you have an existing Linux L4 load balancer and are looking to
write some lightweight code to support QUIC, you probably already
have the DTLS APIs you need there. But I am perfectly happy to go
with the consensus here.</div>
<br></div>
</div>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 1:54 PM, Dmitri
Tikhonov <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dtikhonov@litespeedtech.co=
m" target=3D"_blank">dtikhonov@litespeedtech.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<span class=3D"">On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 05:34:46PM -0800, Erik Kline
wrote:<br>
&gt; I wasn&#39;t in Melbourne, but I&#39;m curious: why not specify a
protocol<br>
&gt; over QUIC itself?<br>
<br></span>+1: As I was reading the draft, I was wondering the
same thing.<br>
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
=C2=A0 - Dmitri.<br></font></span></blockquote>
</div>
<br></div>


</div></div></span></blockquote></body></html>

--001a11427686ad2ba505652890a8--


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From nobody Wed Feb 14 06:49:46 2018
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From: Lucas Pardue <Lucas.Pardue@bbc.co.uk>
To: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
Subject: Multipath Milestones
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Hi,

For fear of kicking a hornet's nest...

This might be a bit pedantic but when the milestones were adjusted back in =
December, the Multipath extension milestones were left as originally stated=
 (Nov '17, May '19).

Is there any intention to modify these? The Nov '17 adoption has obviously =
been missed and I'm wondering what I would tell someone less familiar with =
the WG when they hypothetically asks me what that means.

Kind regards
Lucas

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">For fear of kicking a hornet&#8217;s nest&#8230;<o:p=
></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This might be a bit pedantic but when the milestones=
 were adjusted back in December, the Multipath extension milestones were le=
ft as originally stated (Nov &#8217;17, May &#8217;19).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Is there any intention to modify these? The Nov &#82=
17;17 adoption has obviously been missed and I&#8217;m wondering what I wou=
ld tell someone less familiar with the WG when they hypothetically asks me =
what that means.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Kind regards<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Lucas<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>
To: Lucas Pardue <Lucas.Pardue@bbc.co.uk>
CC: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Multipath Milestones
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Hi,

On 2018-2-14, at 15:49, Lucas Pardue <Lucas.Pardue@bbc.co.uk> wrote:
> This might be a bit pedantic but when the milestones were adjusted =
back in December, the Multipath extension milestones were left as =
originally stated (Nov =E2=80=9917, May =E2=80=9919).
>=20
> Is there any intention to modify these? The Nov =E2=80=9917 adoption =
has obviously been missed and I=E2=80=99m wondering what I would tell =
someone less familiar with the WG when they hypothetically asks me what =
that means.

yes, we need to update those milestones.

I can't recall that we explicitly discussed this when we discussed =
pushing the base-drafts milestones back. But to me personally, the =
decision to focus all efforts on v1 - and multipath not being part of v1 =
- implicitly meant that we'd not really start any real effort before the =
base-drafts are shipped off to the IESG. In other words, WG adoption =
would probably not happen before Nov 2018, and completion sometime in =
2019 (?).

As I said, this is my personal interpretation - it would be good to know =
if this is the WG consensus.

Lars

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Hi,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">On =
2018-2-14, at 15:49, Lucas Pardue &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Lucas.Pardue@bbc.co.uk" =
class=3D"">Lucas.Pardue@bbc.co.uk</a>&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 11pt;" =
class=3D"">This might be a bit pedantic but when the milestones were =
adjusted back in December, the Multipath extension milestones were left =
as originally stated (Nov =E2=80=9917, May =E2=80=9919).</span><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: =
WordSection1; font-family: Menlo-Regular; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px;"><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Is there =
any intention to modify these? The Nov =E2=80=9917 adoption has =
obviously been missed and I=E2=80=99m wondering what I would tell =
someone less familiar with the WG when they hypothetically asks me what =
that means.</div></div></div></blockquote><br =
class=3D""></div></div><div>yes, we need to update those =
milestones.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I can't recall that we =
explicitly discussed this when we discussed pushing the base-drafts =
milestones back. But to me personally, the decision to focus all efforts =
on v1 - and multipath not being part of v1 - implicitly meant that we'd =
not really start any real effort before the base-drafts are shipped off =
to the IESG. In other words, WG adoption would probably not happen =
before Nov 2018, and completion sometime in 2019 (?).</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>As I said, this is my personal interpretation - it =
would be good to know if this is the WG consensus.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Lars</div></body></html>=

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From: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2018 14:22:06 -0500
Message-ID: <CAKcm_gO4gc-iek4_VKi+ekyUyWTQ0Pt-wmr=zvXdGezzXDBiNA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Multipath Milestones
To: "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>
Cc: Lucas Pardue <Lucas.Pardue@bbc.co.uk>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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Lars, that was my interpretation as well.

I think the right path forward is for those particularly interested in
multipath to experiment with QUIC extensions inside v1, once the extension
mechanism is defined.  Once some experimentation has happened, we'll be in
a better place to have an informed discussion about some of the points
Christian raised in his multipath requirements draft:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-huitema-quic-mpath-req-01

The recent text being added about Connection Migration should lay some of
the groundwork for adding second paths. https://github.com/
quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1012

On Wed, Feb 14, 2018 at 2:14 PM, Eggert, Lars <lars@netapp.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On 2018-2-14, at 15:49, Lucas Pardue <Lucas.Pardue@bbc.co.uk> wrote:
>
> This might be a bit pedantic but when the milestones were adjusted back i=
n
> December, the Multipath extension milestones were left as originally stat=
ed
> (Nov =E2=80=9917, May =E2=80=9919).
>
> Is there any intention to modify these? The Nov =E2=80=9917 adoption has =
obviously
> been missed and I=E2=80=99m wondering what I would tell someone less fami=
liar with
> the WG when they hypothetically asks me what that means.
>
>
> yes, we need to update those milestones.
>
> I can't recall that we explicitly discussed this when we discussed pushin=
g
> the base-drafts milestones back. But to me personally, the decision to
> focus all efforts on v1 - and multipath not being part of v1 - implicitly
> meant that we'd not really start any real effort before the base-drafts a=
re
> shipped off to the IESG. In other words, WG adoption would probably not
> happen before Nov 2018, and completion sometime in 2019 (?).
>
> As I said, this is my personal interpretation - it would be good to know
> if this is the WG consensus.
>
> Lars
>

--001a114abbba12aa0a0565310802
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Lars, that was my interpretation as well.<div><br></div><d=
iv>I think the right path forward is for those particularly interested in m=
ultipath to experiment with QUIC extensions inside v1, once the extension m=
echanism is defined.=C2=A0 Once some experimentation has happened, we&#39;l=
l be in a better place to have an informed discussion about some of the poi=
nts Christian raised in his multipath requirements draft:=C2=A0<a href=3D"h=
ttps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-huitema-quic-mpath-req-01" target=3D"_blan=
k">https://tools.ietf.org/<wbr>html/draft-huitema-quic-mpath-<wbr>req-01</a=
></div><div><br></div><div>The recent text being added about Connection Mig=
ration should lay some of the groundwork for adding second paths.=C2=A0<a h=
ref=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1012" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://github.com/<wbr>quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1012</a></div><div class=3D"=
gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Feb 14, 2018 at 2:14 PM=
, Eggert, Lars <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lars@netapp.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">lars@netapp.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-spa=
ce">Hi,<span><div><br></div><div>On 2018-2-14, at 15:49, Lucas Pardue &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:Lucas.Pardue@bbc.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">Lucas.Pardue@bbc=
.co.uk</a>&gt; wrote:<br><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span style=3D"font=
-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:11pt">This might be a bit pedantic but=
 when the milestones were adjusted back in December, the Multipath extensio=
n milestones were left as originally stated (Nov =E2=80=9917, May =E2=80=99=
19).</span><br><div><div class=3D"m_695862175074301060m_8360455917400659914=
WordSection1" style=3D"font-family:Menlo-Regular;font-size:12px;font-style:=
normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;te=
xt-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-=
spacing:0px"><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0=
001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif">Is there any intention to modify these? The Nov =E2=80=9917 a=
doption has obviously been missed and I=E2=80=99m wondering what I would te=
ll someone less familiar with the WG when they hypothetically asks me what =
that means.</div></div></div></blockquote><br></div></div></span><div>yes, =
we need to update those milestones.</div><div><br></div><div>I can&#39;t re=
call that we explicitly discussed this when we discussed pushing the base-d=
rafts milestones back. But to me personally, the decision to focus all effo=
rts on v1 - and multipath not being part of v1 - implicitly meant that we&#=
39;d not really start any real effort before the base-drafts are shipped of=
f to the IESG. In other words, WG adoption would probably not happen before=
 Nov 2018, and completion sometime in 2019 (?).</div><div><br></div><div>As=
 I said, this is my personal interpretation - it would be good to know if t=
his is the WG consensus.</div><span class=3D"m_695862175074301060HOEnZb"><f=
ont color=3D"#888888"><div><br></div><div>Lars</div></font></span></div></b=
lockquote></div><br></div></div>

--001a114abbba12aa0a0565310802--


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Subject: Re: Multipath Milestones
To: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>
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I agree with Lars and Ian, and I presume this was left out inadvertently.

Lars: maybe the chairs could come up with a "fix" to the milestones and do
a consensus call?

On Wed, Feb 14, 2018 at 11:22 AM, Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com> wrote:

> Lars, that was my interpretation as well.
>
> I think the right path forward is for those particularly interested in
> multipath to experiment with QUIC extensions inside v1, once the extensio=
n
> mechanism is defined.  Once some experimentation has happened, we'll be i=
n
> a better place to have an informed discussion about some of the points
> Christian raised in his multipath requirements draft:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-huitema-quic-mpath-req-01
>
> The recent text being added about Connection Migration should lay some of
> the groundwork for adding second paths. https://github.com/quic
> wg/base-drafts/pull/1012
>
> On Wed, Feb 14, 2018 at 2:14 PM, Eggert, Lars <lars@netapp.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> On 2018-2-14, at 15:49, Lucas Pardue <Lucas.Pardue@bbc.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> This might be a bit pedantic but when the milestones were adjusted back
>> in December, the Multipath extension milestones were left as originally
>> stated (Nov =E2=80=9917, May =E2=80=9919).
>>
>> Is there any intention to modify these? The Nov =E2=80=9917 adoption has
>> obviously been missed and I=E2=80=99m wondering what I would tell someon=
e less
>> familiar with the WG when they hypothetically asks me what that means.
>>
>>
>> yes, we need to update those milestones.
>>
>> I can't recall that we explicitly discussed this when we discussed
>> pushing the base-drafts milestones back. But to me personally, the decis=
ion
>> to focus all efforts on v1 - and multipath not being part of v1 -
>> implicitly meant that we'd not really start any real effort before the
>> base-drafts are shipped off to the IESG. In other words, WG adoption wou=
ld
>> probably not happen before Nov 2018, and completion sometime in 2019 (?)=
.
>>
>> As I said, this is my personal interpretation - it would be good to know
>> if this is the WG consensus.
>>
>> Lars
>>
>
>

--f403045c00200b5360056532dc90
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"ltr">I agree with Lars and Ian, and I presume this was left out=
 inadvertently.<div><br></div><div>Lars: maybe the chairs could come up wit=
h a &quot;fix&quot; to the milestones and do a consensus call?</div></div><=
div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Feb 14, 20=
18 at 11:22 AM, Ian Swett <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ianswett@=
google.com" target=3D"_blank">ianswett@google.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Lars, that was my interpret=
ation as well.<div><br></div><div>I think the right path forward is for tho=
se particularly interested in multipath to experiment with QUIC extensions =
inside v1, once the extension mechanism is defined.=C2=A0 Once some experim=
entation has happened, we&#39;ll be in a better place to have an informed d=
iscussion about some of the points Christian raised in his multipath requir=
ements draft:=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-huitema-qui=
c-mpath-req-01" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/<wbr>html/draft-hu=
itema-quic-mpath-<wbr>req-01</a></div><div><br></div><div>The recent text b=
eing added about Connection Migration should lay some of the groundwork for=
 adding second paths.=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts=
/pull/1012" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/quic<wbr>wg/base-drafts/pu=
ll/1012</a></div><div><div class=3D"h5"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div=
 class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Feb 14, 2018 at 2:14 PM, Eggert, Lars <span =
dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lars@netapp.com" target=3D"_blank">lars@n=
etapp.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div sty=
le=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">Hi,<span><div><br>=
</div><div>On 2018-2-14, at 15:49, Lucas Pardue &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Lucas=
.Pardue@bbc.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">Lucas.Pardue@bbc.co.uk</a>&gt; wrote:<=
br><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,sans-s=
erif;font-size:11pt">This might be a bit pedantic but when the milestones w=
ere adjusted back in December, the Multipath extension milestones were left=
 as originally stated (Nov =E2=80=9917, May =E2=80=9919).</span><br><div><d=
iv class=3D"m_-4070583750238122452m_695862175074301060m_8360455917400659914=
WordSection1" style=3D"font-family:Menlo-Regular;font-size:12px;font-style:=
normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;te=
xt-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-=
spacing:0px"><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-fami=
ly:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0=
001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
div><div style=3D"margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibr=
i,sans-serif">Is there any intention to modify these? The Nov =E2=80=9917 a=
doption has obviously been missed and I=E2=80=99m wondering what I would te=
ll someone less familiar with the WG when they hypothetically asks me what =
that means.</div></div></div></blockquote><br></div></div></span><div>yes, =
we need to update those milestones.</div><div><br></div><div>I can&#39;t re=
call that we explicitly discussed this when we discussed pushing the base-d=
rafts milestones back. But to me personally, the decision to focus all effo=
rts on v1 - and multipath not being part of v1 - implicitly meant that we&#=
39;d not really start any real effort before the base-drafts are shipped of=
f to the IESG. In other words, WG adoption would probably not happen before=
 Nov 2018, and completion sometime in 2019 (?).</div><div><br></div><div>As=
 I said, this is my personal interpretation - it would be good to know if t=
his is the WG consensus.</div><span class=3D"m_-4070583750238122452m_695862=
175074301060HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><div><br></div><div>Lars</div><=
/font></span></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

--f403045c00200b5360056532dc90--


From nobody Wed Feb 14 13:42:48 2018
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From: Lucas Pardue <Lucas.Pardue@bbc.co.uk>
To: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>
CC: "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Multipath Milestones
Thread-Topic: Multipath Milestones
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Yes I think Ian summarised things well.

>From my own perspective, changing milestone dates to <TBD>, <suspended unti=
l further notice> etc would give a more honest reflection of current status=
. Not sure if the datatracker allows such a thing.

Regards
Lucas
________________________________________
From: Jana Iyengar [jri@google.com]
Sent: 14 February 2018 21:33
To: Ian Swett
Cc: Eggert, Lars; Lucas Pardue; QUIC WG
Subject: Re: Multipath Milestones

I agree with Lars and Ian, and I presume this was left out inadvertently.

Lars: maybe the chairs could come up with a "fix" to the milestones and do =
a consensus call?

On Wed, Feb 14, 2018 at 11:22 AM, Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com<mailto:ian=
swett@google.com>> wrote:
Lars, that was my interpretation as well.

I think the right path forward is for those particularly interested in mult=
ipath to experiment with QUIC extensions inside v1, once the extension mech=
anism is defined.  Once some experimentation has happened, we'll be in a be=
tter place to have an informed discussion about some of the points Christia=
n raised in his multipath requirements draft: https://tools.ietf.org/html/d=
raft-huitema-quic-mpath-req-01

The recent text being added about Connection Migration should lay some of t=
he groundwork for adding second paths. https://github.com/quicwg/base-draft=
s/pull/1012

On Wed, Feb 14, 2018 at 2:14 PM, Eggert, Lars <lars@netapp.com<mailto:lars@=
netapp.com>> wrote:
Hi,

On 2018-2-14, at 15:49, Lucas Pardue <Lucas.Pardue@bbc.co.uk<mailto:Lucas.P=
ardue@bbc.co.uk>> wrote:
This might be a bit pedantic but when the milestones were adjusted back in =
December, the Multipath extension milestones were left as originally stated=
 (Nov =9217, May =9219).

Is there any intention to modify these? The Nov =9217 adoption has obviousl=
y been missed and I=92m wondering what I would tell someone less familiar w=
ith the WG when they hypothetically asks me what that means.

yes, we need to update those milestones.

I can't recall that we explicitly discussed this when we discussed pushing =
the base-drafts milestones back. But to me personally, the decision to focu=
s all efforts on v1 - and multipath not being part of v1 - implicitly meant=
 that we'd not really start any real effort before the base-drafts are ship=
ped off to the IESG. In other words, WG adoption would probably not happen =
before Nov 2018, and completion sometime in 2019 (?).

As I said, this is my personal interpretation - it would be good to know if=
 this is the WG consensus.

Lars




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 Possible missed messages on this list

Dear list participants -

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<div dir=3D"ltr">

Possible missed messages on this list<br><br>Dear list participants -<br><b=
r>An
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n
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From: "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>
To: Lucas Pardue <Lucas.Pardue@bbc.co.uk>
CC: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Multipath Milestones
Thread-Topic: Multipath Milestones
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Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 08:08:42 +0000
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On 2018-2-14, at 22:42, Lucas Pardue <Lucas.Pardue@bbc.co.uk> wrote:
> =46rom my own perspective, changing milestone dates to <TBD>, =
<suspended until further notice> etc would give a more honest reflection =
of current status. Not sure if the datatracker allows such a thing.

Unfortunately, it doesn't. It needs a date, I can delete a milestone, or =
mark as completed.

My suggestion would be to move the "adoption" milestone to Nov 2018, and =
the completion milestone to July 2019. Do people think we can ship v2 by =
then?

Lars

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">On =
2018-2-14, at 22:42, Lucas Pardue &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Lucas.Pardue@bbc.co.uk" =
class=3D"">Lucas.Pardue@bbc.co.uk</a>&gt; wrote:<div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: =
inline !important;" class=3D"">=46rom my own perspective, changing =
milestone dates to &lt;TBD&gt;, &lt;suspended until further notice&gt; =
etc would give a more honest reflection of current status. Not sure if =
the datatracker allows such a thing.</span><br style=3D"font-family: =
Menlo-Regular; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Unfortunately, it doesn't. It needs a date, I can delete a =
milestone, or mark as completed.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">My suggestion would be to move the =
"adoption" milestone to Nov 2018, and the completion milestone to July =
2019. Do people think we can ship v2 by then?</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Lars</div></body></html>=

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Subject: Re: Multipath Milestones
To: "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>
Cc: Lucas Pardue <Lucas.Pardue@bbc.co.uk>, Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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Depends on what v2 is. I'd like to ship some v2 by then, but that may not
include multipath... that's a conversation we need to have with more
details about strategy and so on. This is perhaps a can of worms to open in
London?

As I remember it, multipath was on the charter because we wanted to signal
that we were going to work on it, just not yet. If we are agreed on doing
it after v1, I wonder if it makes most sense now to simply remove it from
the charter and re-litigate it when we create a charter for post-v1 work.

On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 12:08 AM, Eggert, Lars <lars@netapp.com> wrote:

> On 2018-2-14, at 22:42, Lucas Pardue <Lucas.Pardue@bbc.co.uk> wrote:
>
> From my own perspective, changing milestone dates to <TBD>, <suspended
> until further notice> etc would give a more honest reflection of current
> status. Not sure if the datatracker allows such a thing.
>
>
> Unfortunately, it doesn't. It needs a date, I can delete a milestone, or
> mark as completed.
>
> My suggestion would be to move the "adoption" milestone to Nov 2018, and
> the completion milestone to July 2019. Do people think we can ship v2 by
> then?
>
> Lars
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Depends on what v2 is. I&#39;d like to ship some v2 by the=
n, but that may not include multipath... that&#39;s a conversation we need =
to have with more details about strategy and so on. This is perhaps a can o=
f worms to open in London?<div><br></div><div>As I remember it, multipath w=
as on the charter because we wanted to signal that we were going to work on=
 it, just not yet. If we are agreed on doing it after v1, I wonder if it ma=
kes most sense now to simply remove it from the charter and re-litigate it =
when we create a charter for post-v1 work.=C2=A0</div></div><div class=3D"g=
mail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 12:08 AM=
, Eggert, Lars <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lars@netapp.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">lars@netapp.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-spa=
ce">On 2018-2-14, at 22:42, Lucas Pardue &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Lucas.Pardue=
@bbc.co.uk" target=3D"_blank">Lucas.Pardue@bbc.co.uk</a>&gt; wrote:<div><bl=
ockquote type=3D"cite"><div><span style=3D"font-family:Menlo-Regular;font-s=
ize:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;lett=
er-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;whit=
e-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline!important">From m=
y own perspective, changing milestone dates to &lt;TBD&gt;, &lt;suspended u=
ntil further notice&gt; etc would give a more honest reflection of current =
status. Not sure if the datatracker allows such a thing.</span><br style=3D=
"font-family:Menlo-Regular;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ca=
ps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-in=
dent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"></div></b=
lockquote></div><br><div>Unfortunately, it doesn&#39;t. It needs a date, I =
can delete a milestone, or mark as completed.</div><div><br></div><div>My s=
uggestion would be to move the &quot;adoption&quot; milestone to Nov 2018, =
and the completion milestone to July 2019. Do people think we can ship v2 b=
y then?</div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><div><br></div>=
<div>Lars</div></font></span></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

--089e082d00f87199f3056549a4f5--


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From: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 11:50:25 +1100
Message-ID: <CABkgnnUOXrD3iAftmvWe6TVhukCOCNLrLw7DfyfafHe3PocPOw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Multipath Milestones
To: Jana Iyengar <jri.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>, Lucas Pardue <Lucas.Pardue@bbc.co.uk>,  Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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I don't have a lot of interest in spending too much time on procedural
issues.  An unrealistic milestone is only a problem if you think that
it is.  I'm more interested in executing on the plan (shipping).

Let's talk about v2 when it is time to work on v2.  I'm aware that
this might be very soon after v1, but I think that talking v2 in
London might be a little premature.

On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 11:44 AM, Jana Iyengar <jri.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
> Depends on what v2 is. I'd like to ship some v2 by then, but that may not
> include multipath... that's a conversation we need to have with more details
> about strategy and so on. This is perhaps a can of worms to open in London?
>
> As I remember it, multipath was on the charter because we wanted to signal
> that we were going to work on it, just not yet. If we are agreed on doing it
> after v1, I wonder if it makes most sense now to simply remove it from the
> charter and re-litigate it when we create a charter for post-v1 work.
>
> On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 12:08 AM, Eggert, Lars <lars@netapp.com> wrote:
>>
>> On 2018-2-14, at 22:42, Lucas Pardue <Lucas.Pardue@bbc.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> From my own perspective, changing milestone dates to <TBD>, <suspended
>> until further notice> etc would give a more honest reflection of current
>> status. Not sure if the datatracker allows such a thing.
>>
>>
>> Unfortunately, it doesn't. It needs a date, I can delete a milestone, or
>> mark as completed.
>>
>> My suggestion would be to move the "adoption" milestone to Nov 2018, and
>> the completion milestone to July 2019. Do people think we can ship v2 by
>> then?
>>
>> Lars
>
>


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From: Jana Iyengar <jri.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2018 16:53:13 -0800
Message-ID: <CACpbDcdHoSsrdENrrJK6-0_YtF2o-09CPZGUf6FJsVw43v0paA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Multipath Milestones
To: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
Cc: "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>, Lucas Pardue <Lucas.Pardue@bbc.co.uk>,  Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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--089e082d00f8e18d5b056549c493
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

I agree with all that, except multipath is > v1, and it is on the list of
milestones. I'd be in favor of removing it entirely from the list of
milestones.

On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 4:50 PM, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
wrote:

> I don't have a lot of interest in spending too much time on procedural
> issues.  An unrealistic milestone is only a problem if you think that
> it is.  I'm more interested in executing on the plan (shipping).
>
> Let's talk about v2 when it is time to work on v2.  I'm aware that
> this might be very soon after v1, but I think that talking v2 in
> London might be a little premature.
>
> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 11:44 AM, Jana Iyengar <jri.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Depends on what v2 is. I'd like to ship some v2 by then, but that may not
> > include multipath... that's a conversation we need to have with more
> details
> > about strategy and so on. This is perhaps a can of worms to open in
> London?
> >
> > As I remember it, multipath was on the charter because we wanted to
> signal
> > that we were going to work on it, just not yet. If we are agreed on
> doing it
> > after v1, I wonder if it makes most sense now to simply remove it from
> the
> > charter and re-litigate it when we create a charter for post-v1 work.
> >
> > On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 12:08 AM, Eggert, Lars <lars@netapp.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> On 2018-2-14, at 22:42, Lucas Pardue <Lucas.Pardue@bbc.co.uk> wrote:
> >>
> >> From my own perspective, changing milestone dates to <TBD>, <suspended
> >> until further notice> etc would give a more honest reflection of current
> >> status. Not sure if the datatracker allows such a thing.
> >>
> >>
> >> Unfortunately, it doesn't. It needs a date, I can delete a milestone, or
> >> mark as completed.
> >>
> >> My suggestion would be to move the "adoption" milestone to Nov 2018, and
> >> the completion milestone to July 2019. Do people think we can ship v2 by
> >> then?
> >>
> >> Lars
> >
> >
>

--089e082d00f8e18d5b056549c493
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">I agree with all that, except multipath is &gt; v1, and it=
 is on the list of milestones. I&#39;d be in favor of removing it entirely =
from the list of milestones.<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 4:50 PM, Martin Thomson <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.thomson@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">=
martin.thomson@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left=
:1ex">I don&#39;t have a lot of interest in spending too much time on proce=
dural<br>
issues.=C2=A0 An unrealistic milestone is only a problem if you think that<=
br>
it is.=C2=A0 I&#39;m more interested in executing on the plan (shipping).<b=
r>
<br>
Let&#39;s talk about v2 when it is time to work on v2.=C2=A0 I&#39;m aware =
that<br>
this might be very soon after v1, but I think that talking v2 in<br>
London might be a little premature.<br>
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 11:44 AM, Jana Iyengar &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jri.ie=
tf@gmail.com">jri.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; Depends on what v2 is. I&#39;d like to ship some v2 by then, but that =
may not<br>
&gt; include multipath... that&#39;s a conversation we need to have with mo=
re details<br>
&gt; about strategy and so on. This is perhaps a can of worms to open in Lo=
ndon?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; As I remember it, multipath was on the charter because we wanted to si=
gnal<br>
&gt; that we were going to work on it, just not yet. If we are agreed on do=
ing it<br>
&gt; after v1, I wonder if it makes most sense now to simply remove it from=
 the<br>
&gt; charter and re-litigate it when we create a charter for post-v1 work.<=
br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Thu, Feb 15, 2018 at 12:08 AM, Eggert, Lars &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:l=
ars@netapp.com">lars@netapp.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On 2018-2-14, at 22:42, Lucas Pardue &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Lucas.P=
ardue@bbc.co.uk">Lucas.Pardue@bbc.co.uk</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; From my own perspective, changing milestone dates to &lt;TBD&gt;, =
&lt;suspended<br>
&gt;&gt; until further notice&gt; etc would give a more honest reflection o=
f current<br>
&gt;&gt; status. Not sure if the datatracker allows such a thing.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Unfortunately, it doesn&#39;t. It needs a date, I can delete a mil=
estone, or<br>
&gt;&gt; mark as completed.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; My suggestion would be to move the &quot;adoption&quot; milestone =
to Nov 2018, and<br>
&gt;&gt; the completion milestone to July 2019. Do people think we can ship=
 v2 by<br>
&gt;&gt; then?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Lars<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--089e082d00f8e18d5b056549c493--


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Subject: Re: Multipath Milestones
To: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>, "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>
Cc: Lucas Pardue <Lucas.Pardue@bbc.co.uk>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
References: <7CF7F94CB496BF4FAB1676F375F9666A3BAE0BEA@bgb01xud1012> <DE0B9AF2-915C-42A0-85E4-C419782D46B5@netapp.com> <CAKcm_gO4gc-iek4_VKi+ekyUyWTQ0Pt-wmr=zvXdGezzXDBiNA@mail.gmail.com>
From: Quentin De Coninck <quentin.deconinck@uclouvain.be>
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Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 14:10:58 +0100
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Hello,

Le 14/02/18 à 20:22, Ian Swett a écrit :
> I think the right path forward is for those particularly interested in 
> multipath to experiment with QUIC extensions inside v1, once the 
> extension mechanism is defined.  Once some experimentation has 
> happened, we'll be in a better place to have an informed discussion 
> about some of the points Christian raised in his multipath 
> requirements draft: 
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-huitema-quic-mpath-req-01 
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-huitema-quic-mpath-req-01>

I totally agree that experimenting is key. That's why we implemented the 
multipath extensions that we proposed last year in 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-deconinck-multipath-quic/

This document has evolved and we'll release a new version before the 
London IETF to take into account various comments received. In parallel 
with that, we are finalizing an iOS application that uses multipath QUIC 
to evaluate how this works in the wild. This application will perform 
various measurements to analyze the benefits of multipath. If you have 
ideas, feel free to contact me offline. If there is interest, I might be 
able to report some results with multipath QUIC in the wild at the 
London IETF.

Quentin

--------------CBB83CD749352F532172DA6C
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<html>
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    Hello,<br>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">Le 14/02/18 à 20:22, Ian Swett a
      écrit :<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAKcm_gO4gc-iek4_VKi+ekyUyWTQ0Pt-wmr=zvXdGezzXDBiNA@mail.gmail.com">I
      think the right path forward is for those particularly interested
      in multipath to experiment with QUIC extensions inside v1, once
      the extension mechanism is defined.  Once some experimentation has
      happened, we'll be in a better place to have an informed
      discussion about some of the points Christian raised in his
      multipath requirements draft: <a
        href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-huitema-quic-mpath-req-01"
        target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://tools.ietf.org/<wbr>html/draft-huitema-quic-mpath-<wbr>req-01</a></blockquote>
    <br>
    I totally agree that experimenting is key. That's why we implemented
    the multipath extensions that we proposed last year in
    <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
      href="https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-deconinck-multipath-quic/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-deconinck-multipath-quic/</a>
    <br>
    <br>
    This document has evolved and we'll release a new version before the
    London IETF to take into account various comments received.
    In parallel with that, we are finalizing an iOS application that
    uses multipath QUIC to evaluate how this works in the wild. This
    application will perform various measurements to analyze the
    benefits of multipath. If you have ideas, feel free to contact me
    offline. If there is interest, I might be able to report some
    results with multipath QUIC in the wild at the London IETF.<br>
    <br>
    Quentin
  </body>
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Subject: Re: Multipath Milestones
To: "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>, Quentin De Coninck <quentin.deconinck@uclouvain.be>,  Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>
Cc: Lucas Pardue <lucas.pardue@bbc.co.uk>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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I briefly skimmed the multi path proposal and one thing that comes to mind
is the limit of 256 paths.
I think there could be much more than 256 paths and that path ID=E2=80=99s =
could be
varint encoded. A single address could have multiple paths over time, key
migration could be tied to paths, although two paths may still share a key.
Path swapping could potentially be used to protect against optimistic ACK
attack. I wrote an issue on segmented packet numbers:
https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1105 here the objective is to
avoid the packet number encryption and to provide simpler per path loss
management, but it overlaps with multi-path. I wonder how much the current
design actually needs to change in order to support multi-path if using
segmented packet numbers. There is already PATH_CHALLENGE.


Kind Regards,
Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen


On 16 February 2018 at 14.11.17, Quentin De Coninck (
quentin.deconinck@uclouvain.be) wrote:

Hello,

Le 14/02/18 =C3=A0 20:22, Ian Swett a =C3=A9crit :

I think the right path forward is for those particularly interested in
multipath to experiment with QUIC extensions inside v1, once the extension
mechanism is defined.  Once some experimentation has happened, we'll be in
a better place to have an informed discussion about some of the points
Christian raised in his multipath requirements draft:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-huitema-quic-mpath-req-01


I totally agree that experimenting is key. That's why we implemented the
multipath extensions that we proposed last year in
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-deconinck-multipath-quic/

This document has evolved and we'll release a new version before the London
IETF to take into account various comments received. In parallel with that,
we are finalizing an iOS application that uses multipath QUIC to evaluate
how this works in the wild. This application will perform various
measurements to analyze the benefits of multipath. If you have ideas, feel
free to contact me offline. If there is interest, I might be able to report
some results with multipath QUIC in the wild at the London IETF.

Quentin

--001a114043bc422d620565545847
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<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">I briefly skimmed th=
e multi path proposal and one thing that comes to mind is the limit of 256 =
paths.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Ari=
al;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">I thin=
k there could be much more than 256 paths and that path ID=E2=80=99s could =
be varint encoded. A single address could have multiple paths over time, ke=
y migration could be tied to paths, although two paths may still share a ke=
y. Path swapping could potentially be used to protect against optimistic AC=
K attack. I wrote an issue on segmented packet numbers:=C2=A0<a href=3D"htt=
ps://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1105">https://github.com/quicwg/b=
ase-drafts/issues/1105</a>=C2=A0here the objective is to avoid the packet n=
umber encryption and to provide simpler per path loss management, but it ov=
erlaps with multi-path. I wonder how much the current design actually needs=
 to change in order to support multi-path if using segmented packet numbers=
. There is already PATH_CHALLENGE.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin=
:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div> <br> <div id=3D"bloop_sign_15187873906101=
82144" class=3D"bloop_sign"><div style=3D"font-family:helvetica,arial;font-=
size:13px">Kind Regards,</div><div style=3D"font-family:helvetica,arial;fon=
t-size:13px">Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen<br><br></div></div> <br><p c=
lass=3D"airmail_on">On 16 February 2018 at 14.11.17, Quentin De Coninck (<a=
 href=3D"mailto:quentin.deconinck@uclouvain.be">quentin.deconinck@uclouvain=
.be</a>) wrote:</p> <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq"><span><div=
 text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div></div><div>



<title></title>


Hello,<br>
<br>
<div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">Le 14/02/18 =C3=A0 20:22, Ian Swett a
=C3=A9crit=C2=A0:<br></div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" cite=3D"mid:CAKcm_gO4gc-iek4_VKi+ekyUyWTQ0Pt-wmr=
=3DzvXdGezzXDBiNA@mail.gmail.com">
I think the right path forward is for those particularly interested
in multipath to experiment with QUIC extensions inside v1, once the
extension mechanism is defined.=C2=A0 Once some experimentation has
happened, we&#39;ll be in a better place to have an informed discussion
about some of the points Christian raised in his multipath
requirements draft:=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-huite=
ma-quic-mpath-req-01" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/<wbr>html/dr=
aft-huitema-quic-mpath-<wbr>req-01</a></blockquote>
<br>
I totally agree that experimenting is key. That&#39;s why we
implemented the multipath extensions that we proposed last year in
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc=
/draft-deconinck-multipath-quic/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-de=
coninck-multipath-quic/</a><br>

<br>
This document has evolved and we&#39;ll release a new version before
the London IETF to take into account various comments received. In
parallel with that, we are finalizing an iOS application that uses
multipath QUIC to evaluate how this works in the wild. This
application will perform various measurements to analyze the
benefits of multipath. If you have ideas, feel free to contact me
offline. If there is interest, I might be able to report some
results with multipath QUIC in the wild at the London IETF.<br>
<br>
Quentin


</div></div></span></blockquote></body></html>

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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 09:01:13 -0800
Message-ID: <CABcZeBMVabN9LQ42BxpSwK71hzu_TbzwqhHTJV1uJBKr5g-N3A@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Asymmetric CIDs
To: IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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Hi folks,

After a bunch of discussion, the CID task force came down to rough
consensus that asymmetric conn IDs were probably the right
direction (CID task force members, please feel free to voice dissent
here). Here's a complete writeup of what I think would be needed
for asymmetric connection IDs. It's not a PR, because I think
something self-contained is cleaner.

Note that if we adopt this direction, we would be sacrificing
public reset under some conditions (see previous emails to the
list) and we would need to decide if it was worth keeping at all.


OVERVIEW
The basic idea is that each side gets to dictate the connection IDs
that are used to send to it. During the handshake, you establish those
CIDs and then each side can issue new CIDs during the connection.  The
main advantage of this is that it allows for symmetric topologies in which
the client is also behind some kind of stateless LB/router rather than
just the server. See Issue #1091 for more info on this.


The overall handshake looks something like this:

Client                                      Server

Initial [CID=XXX] {recv-CID=YYY} ---------------->
<-------------- Cleartext [CID=YYY] {recv-CID=ZZZ}
Cleartext [CID=ZZZ], {recv-CID=YYY} ------------->
<-------------------------- Short header [CID=YYY]
Short header [CID=ZZZ] -------------------------->


The client's initial CID (XXX) is special, and either consists of

    (a) a randomly chosen dummy CID. Proposal: require this to be
        8 bytes or at least a minimum. This should be the same
        for all Initial packets in a connection (unless a stateless
        reject is received, as below).
    (b) a CID which it received from the server in a stateless reject

All the server's packets are sent with the client's receive CID (YYY)
and all subsequent client packets are sent with the server's receive
CID (ZZZ). The general rule is that you should send with the
connection ID that you most recently received (where recently
is defined as highest PN).

Note: I believe it's safe to just use the sending CID as the mixin
for the KDF, but I haven't thought this entirely through yet.

Finally, you can send NEW_CONNECTION_ID in either direction to provide
a new connection ID for the other side to use. The general assumption
is that you can do this at any time, just as with current QUIC, and
that any time you send to a new remote 3-tuple you should change CIDs
if you can. Note that this means that endpoints should try to make
sure that the other side has spare CIDs in case they need to migrate.


WIRE ENCODING
As we discussed in the meeting the short header should just have
an implicit length CID. This gives us the following short header:

   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
   |0|C|K| Type (5)|
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
   |                                                               |
   +                     [Connection ID (*)]                       +  <-
change from 64
   |                                                               |
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
   |                      Packet Number (8/16/32)                ...
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
   |                     Protected Payload (*)                   ...
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Note that we may also be able to dispense with the C bit, if each
side just gets to say "send me this CID exactly", why do we want
to say "here is my CID but you can omit it".


We have several options about the long header. The first question
is where recv-CIDs go. In previous versions I suggested putting
them in transport parameters, or elsewhere in the TLS handshake,
and that might still be viable, though it has some drawbacks [0],
so the other alternative is to put both CIDs in in the long header.
This would look something like:

   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
   |1|   Type (7)  |
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
   |  DCID-Length  |                                               |
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+   Dst Connection ID (*)                       +
   |                                                               |
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
   |  SCID-Length  |                                               |
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+   Src Connection ID (*)                       +
   |                                                               |
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
   |                         Version (32)                          |
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
   |                       Packet Number (32)                      |
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
   |                          Payload (*)                        ...
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

The semantics here are that the first value is the CID you want to
send to and the second one is the value you want used to send to you
(I've inverted these to keep the order the same as short header).

Two notes about this encoding:

1. I think we agreed that we didn't want arbitrary length CIDs up to
255 bytes, and yet we have room in this length byte. I propose we
limit it to 31 bytes and then grease the remaining 3 bits [1].

2. Because the client sends its CID first, there's no way to get the
current QUIC semantics of the server just dictates the CID.  I propose
we fix that by defining a special sentinel CID (all 1s, all 0s,
whatever) of whatever our maximum length is that means "just use your
own CID".

We can endlessly bikeshed on this structure.


Finally, we will need to update NEW_CONNECTION_ID to allow a variable
length CID. This would look like this:

    0                   1                   2                   3
    0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
   |                          Sequence (i)                       ...
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
   |  CID-Length   |                                               |
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+       Connection ID (*)                       +
   |                                                               |
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
   |                                                               |
   +                                                               +
   |                                                               |
   +                   Stateless Reset Token (128)                 +
   |                                                               |
   +                                                               +
   |                                                               |
   +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+



[0] However, in the transport parameters design, if the server's
handshake gets reordered, the client might need to send some ACKs with
the initial CID. However, we've agreed that the client's IP address
has to be stable, so this isn't a problem. Alternately, you could
change C->S CIDs in the short header if that was easier.

[1] An alternative would be to have a sparse range (e.g., you can
express 0-7 and then 8-22 by 2s, assuming I have counted correctly)
and then we could pack both lengths into a single byte. As I said,
lots of opportunities for bikeshedding here.

--089e08264fa41f02d00565574dc5
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi folks,</div><div><br></div><div>After a bunch of d=
iscussion, the CID task force came down to rough</div><div>consensus that a=
symmetric conn IDs were probably the right</div><div>direction (CID task fo=
rce members, please feel free to voice dissent</div><div>here). Here&#39;s =
a complete writeup of what I think would be needed</div><div>for asymmetric=
 connection IDs. It&#39;s not a PR, because I think</div><div>something sel=
f-contained is cleaner.</div><div><br></div><div>Note that if we adopt this=
 direction, we would be sacrificing</div><div>public reset under some condi=
tions (see previous emails to the</div><div>list) and we would need to deci=
de if it was worth keeping at all.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>=
OVERVIEW</div><div>The basic idea is that each side gets to dictate the con=
nection IDs</div><div>that are used to send to it. During the handshake, yo=
u establish those</div><div>CIDs and then each side can issue new CIDs duri=
ng the connection.=C2=A0 The</div><div>main advantage of this is that it al=
lows for symmetric topologies in which</div><div>the client is also behind =
some kind of stateless LB/router rather than</div><div>just the server. See=
 Issue #1091 for more info on this.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div=
>The overall handshake looks something like this:</div><div><br></div><div>=
Client=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Server</div=
><div><br></div><div>Initial [CID=3DXXX] {recv-CID=3DYYY} ----------------&=
gt;</div><div>&lt;-------------- Cleartext [CID=3DYYY] {recv-CID=3DZZZ}</di=
v><div>Cleartext [CID=3DZZZ], {recv-CID=3DYYY} -------------&gt;</div><div>=
&lt;-------------------------- Short header [CID=3DYYY]</div><div>Short hea=
der [CID=3DZZZ] --------------------------&gt;</div><div><br></div><div><br=
></div><div>The client&#39;s initial CID (XXX) is special, and either consi=
sts of</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (a) a randomly chosen dummy C=
ID. Proposal: require this to be</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 8 by=
tes or at least a minimum. This should be the same</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 for all Initial packets in a connection (unless a stateless</=
div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 reject is received, as below).</div><d=
iv>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (b) a CID which it received from the server in a stateless=
 reject</div><div><br></div><div>All the server&#39;s packets are sent with=
 the client&#39;s receive CID (YYY)</div><div>and all subsequent client pac=
kets are sent with the server&#39;s receive</div><div>CID (ZZZ). The genera=
l rule is that you should send with the</div><div>connection ID that you mo=
st recently received (where recently</div><div>is defined as highest PN).</=
div><div><br></div><div>Note: I believe it&#39;s safe to just use the sendi=
ng CID as the mixin</div><div>for the KDF, but I haven&#39;t thought this e=
ntirely through yet.</div><div><br></div><div>Finally, you can send NEW_CON=
NECTION_ID in either direction to provide</div><div>a new connection ID for=
 the other side to use. The general assumption</div><div>is that you can do=
 this at any time, just as with current QUIC, and</div><div>that any time y=
ou send to a new remote 3-tuple you should change CIDs</div><div>if you can=
. Note that this means that endpoints should try to make</div><div>sure tha=
t the other side has spare CIDs in case they need to migrate.</div><div><br=
></div><div><br></div><div>WIRE ENCODING</div><div>As we discussed in the m=
eeting the short header should just have</div><div>an implicit length CID. =
This gives us the following short header:</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|0|C|K| Type (5)|</div><div>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-=
+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[Connection ID (=
*)]=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0+=C2=A0 &lt;- change from 64</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div=
><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-=
+-+-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Packet Number (8/16/32)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ...</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-=
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Protected Payload (*)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0...</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-=
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+</div><div><br></div><div>Note=
 that we may also be able to dispense with the C bit, if each</div><div>sid=
e just gets to say &quot;send me this CID exactly&quot;, why do we want</di=
v><div>to say &quot;here is my CID but you can omit it&quot;.</div><div><br=
></div><div><br></div><div>We have several options about the long header. T=
he first question</div><div>is where recv-CIDs go. In previous versions I s=
uggested putting</div><div>them in transport parameters, or elsewhere in th=
e TLS handshake,</div><div>and that might still be viable, though it has so=
me drawbacks [0],</div><div>so the other alternative is to put both CIDs in=
 in the long header.</div><div>This would look something like:</div><div><b=
r></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|1|=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0Type (7)=C2=A0 |</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 DCI=
D-Length=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-=
+=C2=A0 =C2=A0Dst Connection ID (*)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|<=
/div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-=
+-+-+-+-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 SCID-Length=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=C2=A0 =C2=A0Src Connec=
tion ID (*)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-=
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+</div><div>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Version (32)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |</div><div>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=
</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Packet Number (32)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |</div><div>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+</di=
v><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Payload (*)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ...</div><div>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-=
+-+</div><div><br></div><div>The semantics here are that the first value is=
 the CID you want to</div><div>send to and the second one is the value you =
want used to send to you</div><div>(I&#39;ve inverted these to keep the ord=
er the same as short header).</div><div><br></div><div>Two notes about this=
 encoding:</div><div><br></div><div>1. I think we agreed that we didn&#39;t=
 want arbitrary length CIDs up to</div><div>255 bytes, and yet we have room=
 in this length byte. I propose we</div><div>limit it to 31 bytes and then =
grease the remaining 3 bits [1].</div><div><br></div><div>2. Because the cl=
ient sends its CID first, there&#39;s no way to get the</div><div>current Q=
UIC semantics of the server just dictates the CID.=C2=A0 I propose</div><di=
v>we fix that by defining a special sentinel CID (all 1s, all 0s,</div><div=
>whatever) of whatever our maximum length is that means &quot;just use your=
</div><div>own CID&quot;.</div><div><br></div><div>We can endlessly bikeshe=
d on this structure.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Finally, we wi=
ll need to update NEW_CONNECTION_ID to allow a variable</div><div>length CI=
D. This would look like this:</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 0=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A01=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A02=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A03</div><div>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1<=
/div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-=
+-+-+-+-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Sequence (i)=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0...</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 CID-Length=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Connection ID (*)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div=
><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-=
+-+-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+</div><div>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Stateless Reset Token (128)=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-=
+-+</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>[0] However, in =
the transport parameters design, if the server&#39;s</div><div>handshake ge=
ts reordered, the client might need to send some ACKs with</div><div>the in=
itial CID. However, we&#39;ve agreed that the client&#39;s IP address</div>=
<div>has to be stable, so this isn&#39;t a problem. Alternately, you could<=
/div><div>change C-&gt;S CIDs in the short header if that was easier.</div>=
<div><br></div><div>[1] An alternative would be to have a sparse range (e.g=
., you can</div><div>express 0-7 and then 8-22 by 2s, assuming I have count=
ed correctly)</div><div>and then we could pack both lengths into a single b=
yte. As I said,</div><div>lots of opportunities for bikeshedding here.</div=
><div><br></div></div>

--089e08264fa41f02d00565574dc5--


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Subject: Re: Asymmetric CIDs
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--001a114abbba7839b2056557a458
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Thanks for the excellent summary EKR.  I like this design and think the
breakage of stateless reset in certain cases is acceptable, since it only
applies if both sides must have their preferred connection ID present in
order to route correctly, which is a use case that's impossible in the
status quo.  I have not come up with any other downsides.

On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 12:01 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:

> Hi folks,
>
> After a bunch of discussion, the CID task force came down to rough
> consensus that asymmetric conn IDs were probably the right
> direction (CID task force members, please feel free to voice dissent
> here). Here's a complete writeup of what I think would be needed
> for asymmetric connection IDs. It's not a PR, because I think
> something self-contained is cleaner.
>
> Note that if we adopt this direction, we would be sacrificing
> public reset under some conditions (see previous emails to the
> list) and we would need to decide if it was worth keeping at all.
>
>
> OVERVIEW
> The basic idea is that each side gets to dictate the connection IDs
> that are used to send to it. During the handshake, you establish those
> CIDs and then each side can issue new CIDs during the connection.  The
> main advantage of this is that it allows for symmetric topologies in which
> the client is also behind some kind of stateless LB/router rather than
> just the server. See Issue #1091 for more info on this.
>
>
> The overall handshake looks something like this:
>
> Client                                      Server
>
> Initial [CID=XXX] {recv-CID=YYY} ---------------->
> <-------------- Cleartext [CID=YYY] {recv-CID=ZZZ}
> Cleartext [CID=ZZZ], {recv-CID=YYY} ------------->
> <-------------------------- Short header [CID=YYY]
> Short header [CID=ZZZ] -------------------------->
>
>
> The client's initial CID (XXX) is special, and either consists of
>
>     (a) a randomly chosen dummy CID. Proposal: require this to be
>         8 bytes or at least a minimum. This should be the same
>         for all Initial packets in a connection (unless a stateless
>         reject is received, as below).
>     (b) a CID which it received from the server in a stateless reject
>
> All the server's packets are sent with the client's receive CID (YYY)
> and all subsequent client packets are sent with the server's receive
> CID (ZZZ). The general rule is that you should send with the
> connection ID that you most recently received (where recently
> is defined as highest PN).
>
> Note: I believe it's safe to just use the sending CID as the mixin
> for the KDF, but I haven't thought this entirely through yet.
>
> Finally, you can send NEW_CONNECTION_ID in either direction to provide
> a new connection ID for the other side to use. The general assumption
> is that you can do this at any time, just as with current QUIC, and
> that any time you send to a new remote 3-tuple you should change CIDs
> if you can. Note that this means that endpoints should try to make
> sure that the other side has spare CIDs in case they need to migrate.
>
>
> WIRE ENCODING
> As we discussed in the meeting the short header should just have
> an implicit length CID. This gives us the following short header:
>
>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>    |0|C|K| Type (5)|
>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>    |                                                               |
>    +                     [Connection ID (*)]                       +  <-
> change from 64
>    |                                                               |
>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>    |                      Packet Number (8/16/32)                ...
>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>    |                     Protected Payload (*)                   ...
>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>
> Note that we may also be able to dispense with the C bit, if each
> side just gets to say "send me this CID exactly", why do we want
> to say "here is my CID but you can omit it".
>
>
> We have several options about the long header. The first question
> is where recv-CIDs go. In previous versions I suggested putting
> them in transport parameters, or elsewhere in the TLS handshake,
> and that might still be viable, though it has some drawbacks [0],
> so the other alternative is to put both CIDs in in the long header.
> This would look something like:
>
>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>    |1|   Type (7)  |
>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>    |  DCID-Length  |                                               |
>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+   Dst Connection ID (*)                       +
>    |                                                               |
>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>    |  SCID-Length  |                                               |
>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+   Src Connection ID (*)                       +
>    |                                                               |
>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>    |                         Version (32)                          |
>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>    |                       Packet Number (32)                      |
>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>    |                          Payload (*)                        ...
>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>
> The semantics here are that the first value is the CID you want to
> send to and the second one is the value you want used to send to you
> (I've inverted these to keep the order the same as short header).
>
> Two notes about this encoding:
>
> 1. I think we agreed that we didn't want arbitrary length CIDs up to
> 255 bytes, and yet we have room in this length byte. I propose we
> limit it to 31 bytes and then grease the remaining 3 bits [1].
>
> 2. Because the client sends its CID first, there's no way to get the
> current QUIC semantics of the server just dictates the CID.  I propose
> we fix that by defining a special sentinel CID (all 1s, all 0s,
> whatever) of whatever our maximum length is that means "just use your
> own CID".
>
> We can endlessly bikeshed on this structure.
>
>
> Finally, we will need to update NEW_CONNECTION_ID to allow a variable
> length CID. This would look like this:
>
>     0                   1                   2                   3
>     0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>    |                          Sequence (i)                       ...
>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>    |  CID-Length   |                                               |
>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+       Connection ID (*)                       +
>    |                                                               |
>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>    |                                                               |
>    +                                                               +
>    |                                                               |
>    +                   Stateless Reset Token (128)                 +
>    |                                                               |
>    +                                                               +
>    |                                                               |
>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>
>
>
> [0] However, in the transport parameters design, if the server's
> handshake gets reordered, the client might need to send some ACKs with
> the initial CID. However, we've agreed that the client's IP address
> has to be stable, so this isn't a problem. Alternately, you could
> change C->S CIDs in the short header if that was easier.
>
> [1] An alternative would be to have a sparse range (e.g., you can
> express 0-7 and then 8-22 by 2s, assuming I have counted correctly)
> and then we could pack both lengths into a single byte. As I said,
> lots of opportunities for bikeshedding here.
>
>

--001a114abbba7839b2056557a458
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Thanks for the excellent summary EKR.=C2=A0 I like this de=
sign and think the breakage of stateless reset in certain cases is acceptab=
le, since it only applies if both sides must have their preferred connectio=
n ID present in order to route correctly, which is a use case that&#39;s im=
possible in the status quo.=C2=A0 I have not come up with any other downsid=
es.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, =
Feb 16, 2018 at 12:01 PM, Eric Rescorla <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi folks,</div><div><b=
r></div><div>After a bunch of discussion, the CID task force came down to r=
ough</div><div>consensus that asymmetric conn IDs were probably the right</=
div><div>direction (CID task force members, please feel free to voice disse=
nt</div><div>here). Here&#39;s a complete writeup of what I think would be =
needed</div><div>for asymmetric connection IDs. It&#39;s not a PR, because =
I think</div><div>something self-contained is cleaner.</div><div><br></div>=
<div>Note that if we adopt this direction, we would be sacrificing</div><di=
v>public reset under some conditions (see previous emails to the</div><div>=
list) and we would need to decide if it was worth keeping at all.</div><div=
><br></div><div><br></div><div>OVERVIEW</div><div>The basic idea is that ea=
ch side gets to dictate the connection IDs</div><div>that are used to send =
to it. During the handshake, you establish those</div><div>CIDs and then ea=
ch side can issue new CIDs during the connection.=C2=A0 The</div><div>main =
advantage of this is that it allows for symmetric topologies in which</div>=
<div>the client is also behind some kind of stateless LB/router rather than=
</div><div>just the server. See Issue #1091 for more info on this.</div><di=
v><br></div><div><br></div><div>The overall handshake looks something like =
this:</div><div><br></div><div>Client=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Server</div><div><br></div><div>Initial [CID=3DXXX] {r=
ecv-CID=3DYYY} ----------------&gt;</div><div>&lt;-------------- Cleartext =
[CID=3DYYY] {recv-CID=3DZZZ}</div><div>Cleartext [CID=3DZZZ], {recv-CID=3DY=
YY} -------------&gt;</div><div>&lt;-------------------------- Short header=
 [CID=3DYYY]</div><div>Short header [CID=3DZZZ] --------------------------&=
gt;</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>The client&#39;s initial CID (X=
XX) is special, and either consists of</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 (a) a randomly chosen dummy CID. Proposal: require this to be</div><div=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 8 bytes or at least a minimum. This should be =
the same</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 for all Initial packets in a=
 connection (unless a stateless</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 rejec=
t is received, as below).</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (b) a CID which it receiv=
ed from the server in a stateless reject</div><div><br></div><div>All the s=
erver&#39;s packets are sent with the client&#39;s receive CID (YYY)</div><=
div>and all subsequent client packets are sent with the server&#39;s receiv=
e</div><div>CID (ZZZ). The general rule is that you should send with the</d=
iv><div>connection ID that you most recently received (where recently</div>=
<div>is defined as highest PN).</div><div><br></div><div>Note: I believe it=
&#39;s safe to just use the sending CID as the mixin</div><div>for the KDF,=
 but I haven&#39;t thought this entirely through yet.</div><div><br></div><=
div>Finally, you can send NEW_CONNECTION_ID in either direction to provide<=
/div><div>a new connection ID for the other side to use. The general assump=
tion</div><div>is that you can do this at any time, just as with current QU=
IC, and</div><div>that any time you send to a new remote 3-tuple you should=
 change CIDs</div><div>if you can. Note that this means that endpoints shou=
ld try to make</div><div>sure that the other side has spare CIDs in case th=
ey need to migrate.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>WIRE ENCODING</=
div><div>As we discussed in the meeting the short header should just have</=
div><div>an implicit length CID. This gives us the following short header:<=
/div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0|0|C|K| Type (5)|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-=
+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|<=
/div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[Connection ID (*)]=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+=C2=A0 &lt;- change=
 from 64</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-=
+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Packet Number (8/16/32)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ...</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<=
wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Pr=
otected Payload (*)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0...</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-=
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div><br></div><div>Note that=
 we may also be able to dispense with the C bit, if each</div><div>side jus=
t gets to say &quot;send me this CID exactly&quot;, why do we want</div><di=
v>to say &quot;here is my CID but you can omit it&quot;.</div><div><br></di=
v><div><br></div><div>We have several options about the long header. The fi=
rst question</div><div>is where recv-CIDs go. In previous versions I sugges=
ted putting</div><div>them in transport parameters, or elsewhere in the TLS=
 handshake,</div><div>and that might still be viable, though it has some dr=
awbacks [0],</div><div>so the other alternative is to put both CIDs in in t=
he long header.</div><div>This would look something like:</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|1|=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0Type (7)=C2=A0 |</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wb=
r>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =
DCID-Length=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-=
+-+-+=C2=A0 =C2=A0Dst Connection ID (*)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-=
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 SCID-Length=C2=
=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0Src Connection ID (*)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=
-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Version (32)=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 |</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-=
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Packet=
 Number (32)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 |</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+=
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 Payload (*)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ...</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-=
+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div><br></div=
><div>The semantics here are that the first value is the CID you want to</d=
iv><div>send to and the second one is the value you want used to send to yo=
u</div><div>(I&#39;ve inverted these to keep the order the same as short he=
ader).</div><div><br></div><div>Two notes about this encoding:</div><div><b=
r></div><div>1. I think we agreed that we didn&#39;t want arbitrary length =
CIDs up to</div><div>255 bytes, and yet we have room in this length byte. I=
 propose we</div><div>limit it to 31 bytes and then grease the remaining 3 =
bits [1].</div><div><br></div><div>2. Because the client sends its CID firs=
t, there&#39;s no way to get the</div><div>current QUIC semantics of the se=
rver just dictates the CID.=C2=A0 I propose</div><div>we fix that by defini=
ng a special sentinel CID (all 1s, all 0s,</div><div>whatever) of whatever =
our maximum length is that means &quot;just use your</div><div>own CID&quot=
;.</div><div><br></div><div>We can endlessly bikeshed on this structure.</d=
iv><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Finally, we will need to update NEW_C=
ONNECTION_ID to allow a variable</div><div>length CID. This would look like=
 this:</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A01=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A02=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A03</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7=
 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+=
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</d=
iv><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Sequence (i)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0...</div><div>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=
-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 CID-Length=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0Connection ID (*)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=
-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+</div=
><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Stateless Reset Token (128)=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+</div><div>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><d=
iv>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-=
+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>[0]=
 However, in the transport parameters design, if the server&#39;s</div><div=
>handshake gets reordered, the client might need to send some ACKs with</di=
v><div>the initial CID. However, we&#39;ve agreed that the client&#39;s IP =
address</div><div>has to be stable, so this isn&#39;t a problem. Alternatel=
y, you could</div><div>change C-&gt;S CIDs in the short header if that was =
easier.</div><div><br></div><div>[1] An alternative would be to have a spar=
se range (e.g., you can</div><div>express 0-7 and then 8-22 by 2s, assuming=
 I have counted correctly)</div><div>and then we could pack both lengths in=
to a single byte. As I said,</div><div>lots of opportunities for bikesheddi=
ng here.</div><div><br></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a114abbba7839b2056557a458--


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From: "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>
To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Asymmetric CIDs
Thread-Topic: Asymmetric CIDs
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Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 17:43:27 +0000
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From: Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 09:49:03 -0800
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Subject: Re: Asymmetric CIDs
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Thanks for the write-up, some questions in-line.

On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 9:01 AM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:

> Hi folks,
>
> After a bunch of discussion, the CID task force came down to rough
> consensus that asymmetric conn IDs were probably the right
> direction (CID task force members, please feel free to voice dissent
> here). Here's a complete writeup of what I think would be needed
> for asymmetric connection IDs. It's not a PR, because I think
> something self-contained is cleaner.
>
> Note that if we adopt this direction, we would be sacrificing
> public reset under some conditions (see previous emails to the
> list) and we would need to decide if it was worth keeping at all.
>
>
> OVERVIEW
> The basic idea is that each side gets to dictate the connection IDs
> that are used to send to it. During the handshake, you establish those
> CIDs and then each side can issue new CIDs during the connection.  The
> main advantage of this is that it allows for symmetric topologies in which
> the client is also behind some kind of stateless LB/router rather than
> just the server. See Issue #1091 for more info on this.
>
>
> The overall handshake looks something like this:
>
> Client                                      Server
>
> Initial [CID=XXX] {recv-CID=YYY} ---------------->
> <-------------- Cleartext [CID=YYY] {recv-CID=ZZZ}
> Cleartext [CID=ZZZ], {recv-CID=YYY} ------------->
> <-------------------------- Short header [CID=YYY]
> Short header [CID=ZZZ] -------------------------->
>
>
> The client's initial CID (XXX) is special, and either consists of
>
>     (a) a randomly chosen dummy CID. Proposal: require this to be
>         8 bytes or at least a minimum. This should be the same
>         for all Initial packets in a connection (unless a stateless
>         reject is received, as below).
>     (b) a CID which it received from the server in a stateless reject
>
> All the server's packets are sent with the client's receive CID (YYY)
> and all subsequent client packets are sent with the server's receive
> CID (ZZZ). The general rule is that you should send with the
> connection ID that you most recently received (where recently
> is defined as highest PN).
>
> Note: I believe it's safe to just use the sending CID as the mixin
> for the KDF, but I haven't thought this entirely through yet.
>

For the client, is this the dummy randomly generated Initial CID?

If not randomly generated appropriately, is there a risk here that the KDF
isn't as strong (see my concern in a previous email)?


>
> Finally, you can send NEW_CONNECTION_ID in either direction to provide
> a new connection ID for the other side to use. The general assumption
> is that you can do this at any time, just as with current QUIC, and
> that any time you send to a new remote 3-tuple you should change CIDs
> if you can. Note that this means that endpoints should try to make
> sure that the other side has spare CIDs in case they need to migrate.
>

Is there any sense in which you can "go back" to a previously used CID, or
are they burned once a new one is used?  The situation I'm thinking of is a
variant of the parking lot problem--if someone goes in and out of range of
a WiFi service for which they have a current DHCP lease, they can alternate
between Cellular and WiFi without actually changing origin IP.  Can they go
back to a previously used CID in that case?  My intuition is that this
should be no, but the implication is that the stack of spare CIDs may need
to be larger as a result; if we did allow it, then the  minimum number of
spare CIDs is a simple function of the number of available network
interfaces.  We could either estimate that and pick a number or ask each
side to state how many spare CIDs they'd prefer (knowing they may get
fewer).



>
> WIRE ENCODING
> As we discussed in the meeting the short header should just have
> an implicit length CID. This gives us the following short header:
>
>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>    |0|C|K| Type (5)|
>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>    |                                                               |
>    +                     [Connection ID (*)]                       +  <-
> change from 64
>    |                                                               |
>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>    |                      Packet Number (8/16/32)                ...
>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>    |                     Protected Payload (*)                   ...
>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>
> Note that we may also be able to dispense with the C bit, if each
> side just gets to say "send me this CID exactly", why do we want
> to say "here is my CID but you can omit it".
>
>
> We have several options about the long header. The first question
> is where recv-CIDs go. In previous versions I suggested putting
> them in transport parameters, or elsewhere in the TLS handshake,
> and that might still be viable, though it has some drawbacks [0],
> so the other alternative is to put both CIDs in in the long header.
> This would look something like:
>
>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>    |1|   Type (7)  |
>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>    |  DCID-Length  |                                               |
>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+   Dst Connection ID (*)                       +
>    |                                                               |
>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>    |  SCID-Length  |                                               |
>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+   Src Connection ID (*)                       +
>    |                                                               |
>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>    |                         Version (32)                          |
>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>    |                       Packet Number (32)                      |
>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>    |                          Payload (*)                        ...
>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>
> The semantics here are that the first value is the CID you want to
> send to and the second one is the value you want used to send to you
> (I've inverted these to keep the order the same as short header).
>
> Two notes about this encoding:
>
> 1. I think we agreed that we didn't want arbitrary length CIDs up to
> 255 bytes, and yet we have room in this length byte. I propose we
> limit it to 31 bytes and then grease the remaining 3 bits [1].
>
> 2. Because the client sends its CID first, there's no way to get the
> current QUIC semantics of the server just dictates the CID.  I propose
> we fix that by defining a special sentinel CID (all 1s, all 0s,
> whatever) of whatever our maximum length is that means "just use your
> own CID".
>
> We can endlessly bikeshed on this structure.
>
> Well, it's only worth painting if there are bikes coming in. I'm not sure
at this point what having the server dictate both sides of this gives you
in a structure that presumes they are asymmetric.


> Finally, we will need to update NEW_CONNECTION_ID to allow a variable
> length CID. This would look like this:
>
>     0                   1                   2                   3
>     0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>    |                          Sequence (i)                       ...
>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>    |  CID-Length   |                                               |
>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+       Connection ID (*)                       +
>    |                                                               |
>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>    |                                                               |
>    +                                                               +
>    |                                                               |
>    +                   Stateless Reset Token (128)                 +
>    |                                                               |
>    +                                                               +
>    |                                                               |
>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>
>
Ted


>
>
> [0] However, in the transport parameters design, if the server's
> handshake gets reordered, the client might need to send some ACKs with
> the initial CID. However, we've agreed that the client's IP address
> has to be stable, so this isn't a problem. Alternately, you could
> change C->S CIDs in the short header if that was easier.
>
> [1] An alternative would be to have a sparse range (e.g., you can
> express 0-7 and then 8-22 by 2s, assuming I have counted correctly)
> and then we could pack both lengths into a single byte. As I said,
> lots of opportunities for bikeshedding here.
>
>

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Thanks for the write-up, some questions in-line.<br><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at=
 9:01 AM, Eric Rescorla <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.co=
m" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pad=
ding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi folks,</div><div><br></div><div>Aft=
er a bunch of discussion, the CID task force came down to rough</div><div>c=
onsensus that asymmetric conn IDs were probably the right</div><div>directi=
on (CID task force members, please feel free to voice dissent</div><div>her=
e). Here&#39;s a complete writeup of what I think would be needed</div><div=
>for asymmetric connection IDs. It&#39;s not a PR, because I think</div><di=
v>something self-contained is cleaner.</div><div><br></div><div>Note that i=
f we adopt this direction, we would be sacrificing</div><div>public reset u=
nder some conditions (see previous emails to the</div><div>list) and we wou=
ld need to decide if it was worth keeping at all.</div><div><br></div><div>=
<br></div><div>OVERVIEW</div><div>The basic idea is that each side gets to =
dictate the connection IDs</div><div>that are used to send to it. During th=
e handshake, you establish those</div><div>CIDs and then each side can issu=
e new CIDs during the connection.=C2=A0 The</div><div>main advantage of thi=
s is that it allows for symmetric topologies in which</div><div>the client =
is also behind some kind of stateless LB/router rather than</div><div>just =
the server. See Issue #1091 for more info on this.</div><div><br></div><div=
><br></div><div>The overall handshake looks something like this:</div><div>=
<br></div><div>Client=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 Server</div><div><br></div><div>Initial [CID=3DXXX] {recv-CID=3DYYY}=
 ----------------&gt;</div><div>&lt;-------------- Cleartext [CID=3DYYY] {r=
ecv-CID=3DZZZ}</div><div>Cleartext [CID=3DZZZ], {recv-CID=3DYYY} ----------=
---&gt;</div><div>&lt;-------------------------- Short header [CID=3DYYY]</=
div><div>Short header [CID=3DZZZ] --------------------------&gt;</div><div>=
<br></div><div><br></div><div>The client&#39;s initial CID (XXX) is special=
, and either consists of</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (a) a rando=
mly chosen dummy CID. Proposal: require this to be</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 8 bytes or at least a minimum. This should be the same</div><=
div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 for all Initial packets in a connection (un=
less a stateless</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 reject is received, =
as below).</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (b) a CID which it received from the ser=
ver in a stateless reject</div><div><br></div><div>All the server&#39;s pac=
kets are sent with the client&#39;s receive CID (YYY)</div><div>and all sub=
sequent client packets are sent with the server&#39;s receive</div><div>CID=
 (ZZZ). The general rule is that you should send with the</div><div>connect=
ion ID that you most recently received (where recently</div><div>is defined=
 as highest PN).</div><div><br></div><div>Note: I believe it&#39;s safe to =
just use the sending CID as the mixin</div><div>for the KDF, but I haven&#3=
9;t thought this entirely through yet.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></d=
iv><div>For the client, is this the dummy randomly generated Initial CID?<b=
r></div><div><br></div><div>If not randomly generated appropriately, is the=
re a risk here that the KDF isn&#39;t as strong (see my concern in a previo=
us email)?<br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div di=
r=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Finally, you can send NEW_CONNECTION_ID in ei=
ther direction to provide</div><div>a new connection ID for the other side =
to use. The general assumption</div><div>is that you can do this at any tim=
e, just as with current QUIC, and</div><div>that any time you send to a new=
 remote 3-tuple you should change CIDs</div><div>if you can. Note that this=
 means that endpoints should try to make</div><div>sure that the other side=
 has spare CIDs in case they need to migrate.</div></div></blockquote><div>=
<br></div><div>Is there any sense in which you can &quot;go back&quot; to a=
 previously used CID, or are they burned once a new one is used?=C2=A0 The =
situation I&#39;m thinking of is a variant of the parking lot problem--if s=
omeone goes in and out of range of a WiFi service for which they have a cur=
rent DHCP lease, they can alternate between Cellular and WiFi without actua=
lly changing origin IP.=C2=A0 Can they go back to a previously used CID in =
that case?=C2=A0 My intuition is that this should be no, but the implicatio=
n is that the stack of spare CIDs may need to be larger as a result; if we =
did allow it, then the=C2=A0 minimum number of spare CIDs is a simple funct=
ion of the number of available network interfaces.=C2=A0 We could either es=
timate that and pick a number or ask each side to state how many spare CIDs=
 they&#39;d prefer (knowing they may get fewer).<br></div><div>=C2=A0<br></=
div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 =
0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><=
/div><div><br></div><div>WIRE ENCODING</div><div>As we discussed in the mee=
ting the short header should just have</div><div>an implicit length CID. Th=
is gives us the following short header:</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|0|C|K| Type (5)|</div><div>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<=
wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[Connecti=
on ID (*)]=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+=C2=A0 &lt;- change from 64</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-=
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Packet Number (8/16=
/32)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ...</div><div>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=
-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Protected Payload (*)=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0...</div><div>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<=
wbr>-+-+-+</div><div><br></div><div>Note that we may also be able to dispen=
se with the C bit, if each</div><div>side just gets to say &quot;send me th=
is CID exactly&quot;, why do we want</div><div>to say &quot;here is my CID =
but you can omit it&quot;.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>We have =
several options about the long header. The first question</div><div>is wher=
e recv-CIDs go. In previous versions I suggested putting</div><div>them in =
transport parameters, or elsewhere in the TLS handshake,</div><div>and that=
 might still be viable, though it has some drawbacks [0],</div><div>so the =
other alternative is to put both CIDs in in the long header.</div><div>This=
 would look something like:</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+=
-+-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|1|=C2=A0 =C2=A0Type (7)=C2=A0 |</div><div>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=
-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 DCID-Length=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=C2=A0 =C2=A0Dst Connec=
tion ID (*)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-=
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</=
div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 SCID-Length=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div=
><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=C2=A0 =C2=A0Src Connection ID (*)=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-=
+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Version (32)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |</div><div>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>=
-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Packet Number (32)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |</div><div>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=
-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Payload (*)=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 ...</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+=
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div><br></div><div>The semantics here=
 are that the first value is the CID you want to</div><div>send to and the =
second one is the value you want used to send to you</div><div>(I&#39;ve in=
verted these to keep the order the same as short header).</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>Two notes about this encoding:</div><div><br></div><div>1. I think =
we agreed that we didn&#39;t want arbitrary length CIDs up to</div><div>255=
 bytes, and yet we have room in this length byte. I propose we</div><div>li=
mit it to 31 bytes and then grease the remaining 3 bits [1].</div><div><br>=
</div><div>2. Because the client sends its CID first, there&#39;s no way to=
 get the</div><div>current QUIC semantics of the server just dictates the C=
ID.=C2=A0 I propose</div><div>we fix that by defining a special sentinel CI=
D (all 1s, all 0s,</div><div>whatever) of whatever our maximum length is th=
at means &quot;just use your</div><div>own CID&quot;.</div><div><br></div><=
/div></blockquote></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-lef=
t:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div></div><div>We can endlessly bikeshed on this s=
tructure.</div><div><br></div></div></blockquote><div>Well, it&#39;s only w=
orth painting if there are bikes coming in. I&#39;m not sure at this point =
what having the server dictate both sides of this gives you in a structure =
that presumes they are asymmetric.=C2=A0 <br></div><div><br></div><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc so=
lid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div></div><div><br></div><div>Final=
ly, we will need to update NEW_CONNECTION_ID to allow a variable</div><div>=
length CID. This would look like this:</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A01=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A02=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A03</div><d=
iv>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 =
9 0 1</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+=
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Seque=
nce (i)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0...</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<w=
br>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0=
 CID-Length=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+=
-+-+-+-+-+-+=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Connection ID (*)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+</div><d=
iv>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<=
wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|<=
/div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0+=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0Stateless Reset Token (128)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+<=
/div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=
-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div><br></div></=
div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Ted<br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s=
olid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div></div><div><br></div><div><br>=
</div><div>[0] However, in the transport parameters design, if the server&#=
39;s</div><div>handshake gets reordered, the client might need to send some=
 ACKs with</div><div>the initial CID. However, we&#39;ve agreed that the cl=
ient&#39;s IP address</div><div>has to be stable, so this isn&#39;t a probl=
em. Alternately, you could</div><div>change C-&gt;S CIDs in the short heade=
r if that was easier.</div><div><br></div><div>[1] An alternative would be =
to have a sparse range (e.g., you can</div><div>express 0-7 and then 8-22 b=
y 2s, assuming I have counted correctly)</div><div>and then we could pack b=
oth lengths into a single byte. As I said,</div><div>lots of opportunities =
for bikeshedding here.</div><div><br></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--001a113dc276961a28056557f7c0--


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Subject: Re: Asymmetric CIDs
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--94eb2c0742eceb133c0565580252
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Thanks for writing this up, ekr. This incorporates many of the suggestions
I made in objection to this project (perhaps coincidentally) and I like it
a lot.

Advantages of this:
- In the common case where most of the data is server->client, clients can
get away with shorter Conn IDs to reduce overhead.
- Omit-conn-id just becomes a case where length = 0. Does this sidestep
some of Google's transition issues?
- If a client sends NEW_CONNECTION_ID, that indicates an intention to
migrate, and is a good cue for the server to send the same. We should add a
SHOULD to specify this behavior.

I must be missing something, however, regarding implicit CIDs.

If there's a NAT rebinding, how is the server supposed to extract the CID?
Furthermore, this obviates the entire concept of using Connection ID for
routing; it's not obviously a savings to store CID length in a table vs.
just storing the destination server.

Lastly, if we encode the length somewhere that seems to solve the Stateless
Reset issue.


On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 9:25 AM, Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com> wrote:

> Thanks for the excellent summary EKR.  I like this design and think the
> breakage of stateless reset in certain cases is acceptable, since it only
> applies if both sides must have their preferred connection ID present in
> order to route correctly, which is a use case that's impossible in the
> status quo.  I have not come up with any other downsides.
>
> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 12:01 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi folks,
>>
>> After a bunch of discussion, the CID task force came down to rough
>> consensus that asymmetric conn IDs were probably the right
>> direction (CID task force members, please feel free to voice dissent
>> here). Here's a complete writeup of what I think would be needed
>> for asymmetric connection IDs. It's not a PR, because I think
>> something self-contained is cleaner.
>>
>> Note that if we adopt this direction, we would be sacrificing
>> public reset under some conditions (see previous emails to the
>> list) and we would need to decide if it was worth keeping at all.
>>
>>
>> OVERVIEW
>> The basic idea is that each side gets to dictate the connection IDs
>> that are used to send to it. During the handshake, you establish those
>> CIDs and then each side can issue new CIDs during the connection.  The
>> main advantage of this is that it allows for symmetric topologies in which
>> the client is also behind some kind of stateless LB/router rather than
>> just the server. See Issue #1091 for more info on this.
>>
>>
>> The overall handshake looks something like this:
>>
>> Client                                      Server
>>
>> Initial [CID=XXX] {recv-CID=YYY} ---------------->
>> <-------------- Cleartext [CID=YYY] {recv-CID=ZZZ}
>> Cleartext [CID=ZZZ], {recv-CID=YYY} ------------->
>> <-------------------------- Short header [CID=YYY]
>> Short header [CID=ZZZ] -------------------------->
>>
>>
>> The client's initial CID (XXX) is special, and either consists of
>>
>>     (a) a randomly chosen dummy CID. Proposal: require this to be
>>         8 bytes or at least a minimum. This should be the same
>>         for all Initial packets in a connection (unless a stateless
>>         reject is received, as below).
>>     (b) a CID which it received from the server in a stateless reject
>>
>> All the server's packets are sent with the client's receive CID (YYY)
>> and all subsequent client packets are sent with the server's receive
>> CID (ZZZ). The general rule is that you should send with the
>> connection ID that you most recently received (where recently
>> is defined as highest PN).
>>
>> Note: I believe it's safe to just use the sending CID as the mixin
>> for the KDF, but I haven't thought this entirely through yet.
>>
>> Finally, you can send NEW_CONNECTION_ID in either direction to provide
>> a new connection ID for the other side to use. The general assumption
>> is that you can do this at any time, just as with current QUIC, and
>> that any time you send to a new remote 3-tuple you should change CIDs
>> if you can. Note that this means that endpoints should try to make
>> sure that the other side has spare CIDs in case they need to migrate.
>>
>>
>> WIRE ENCODING
>> As we discussed in the meeting the short header should just have
>> an implicit length CID. This gives us the following short header:
>>
>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>    |0|C|K| Type (5)|
>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>    |                                                               |
>>    +                     [Connection ID (*)]                       +  <-
>> change from 64
>>    |                                                               |
>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>    |                      Packet Number (8/16/32)                ...
>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>    |                     Protected Payload (*)                   ...
>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>
>> Note that we may also be able to dispense with the C bit, if each
>> side just gets to say "send me this CID exactly", why do we want
>> to say "here is my CID but you can omit it".
>>
>>
>> We have several options about the long header. The first question
>> is where recv-CIDs go. In previous versions I suggested putting
>> them in transport parameters, or elsewhere in the TLS handshake,
>> and that might still be viable, though it has some drawbacks [0],
>> so the other alternative is to put both CIDs in in the long header.
>> This would look something like:
>>
>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>    |1|   Type (7)  |
>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>    |  DCID-Length  |                                               |
>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+   Dst Connection ID (*)                       +
>>    |                                                               |
>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>    |  SCID-Length  |                                               |
>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+   Src Connection ID (*)                       +
>>    |                                                               |
>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>    |                         Version (32)                          |
>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>    |                       Packet Number (32)                      |
>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>    |                          Payload (*)                        ...
>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>
>> The semantics here are that the first value is the CID you want to
>> send to and the second one is the value you want used to send to you
>> (I've inverted these to keep the order the same as short header).
>>
>> Two notes about this encoding:
>>
>> 1. I think we agreed that we didn't want arbitrary length CIDs up to
>> 255 bytes, and yet we have room in this length byte. I propose we
>> limit it to 31 bytes and then grease the remaining 3 bits [1].
>>
>> 2. Because the client sends its CID first, there's no way to get the
>> current QUIC semantics of the server just dictates the CID.  I propose
>> we fix that by defining a special sentinel CID (all 1s, all 0s,
>> whatever) of whatever our maximum length is that means "just use your
>> own CID".
>>
>> We can endlessly bikeshed on this structure.
>>
>>
>> Finally, we will need to update NEW_CONNECTION_ID to allow a variable
>> length CID. This would look like this:
>>
>>     0                   1                   2                   3
>>     0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>    |                          Sequence (i)                       ...
>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>    |  CID-Length   |                                               |
>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+       Connection ID (*)                       +
>>    |                                                               |
>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>    |                                                               |
>>    +                                                               +
>>    |                                                               |
>>    +                   Stateless Reset Token (128)                 +
>>    |                                                               |
>>    +                                                               +
>>    |                                                               |
>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>
>>
>>
>> [0] However, in the transport parameters design, if the server's
>> handshake gets reordered, the client might need to send some ACKs with
>> the initial CID. However, we've agreed that the client's IP address
>> has to be stable, so this isn't a problem. Alternately, you could
>> change C->S CIDs in the short header if that was easier.
>>
>> [1] An alternative would be to have a sparse range (e.g., you can
>> express 0-7 and then 8-22 by 2s, assuming I have counted correctly)
>> and then we could pack both lengths into a single byte. As I said,
>> lots of opportunities for bikeshedding here.
>>
>>
>

--94eb2c0742eceb133c0565580252
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Thanks for writing this up, ekr. This incorporates many of=
 the suggestions I made in objection to this project (perhaps coincidentall=
y) and I like it a lot.<div><br></div><div>Advantages of this:</div><div>- =
In the common case where most of the data is server-&gt;client, clients can=
 get away with shorter Conn IDs to reduce overhead.</div><div>- Omit-conn-i=
d just becomes a case where length =3D 0. Does this sidestep some of Google=
&#39;s transition issues?</div><div>- If a client sends NEW_CONNECTION_ID, =
that indicates an intention to migrate, and is a good cue for the server to=
 send the same. We should add a SHOULD to specify this behavior.</div><div>=
<br></div><div>I must be missing something, however, regarding implicit CID=
s.</div><div><br></div><div>If there&#39;s a NAT rebinding, how is the serv=
er supposed to extract the CID? Furthermore, this obviates the entire conce=
pt of using Connection ID for routing; it&#39;s not obviously a savings to =
store CID length in a table vs. just storing the destination server.</div><=
div><br></div><div>Lastly, if we encode the length somewhere that seems to =
solve the Stateless Reset issue.</div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gm=
ail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 9:25 AM, =
Ian Swett <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ianswett@google.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">ianswett@google.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pad=
ding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Thanks for the excellent summary EKR.=C2=A0=
 I like this design and think the breakage of stateless reset in certain ca=
ses is acceptable, since it only applies if both sides must have their pref=
erred connection ID present in order to route correctly, which is a use cas=
e that&#39;s impossible in the status quo.=C2=A0 I have not come up with an=
y other downsides.</div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 12:=
01 PM, Eric Rescorla <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" =
target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi folks,</div><div><br></div><div>Afte=
r a bunch of discussion, the CID task force came down to rough</div><div>co=
nsensus that asymmetric conn IDs were probably the right</div><div>directio=
n (CID task force members, please feel free to voice dissent</div><div>here=
). Here&#39;s a complete writeup of what I think would be needed</div><div>=
for asymmetric connection IDs. It&#39;s not a PR, because I think</div><div=
>something self-contained is cleaner.</div><div><br></div><div>Note that if=
 we adopt this direction, we would be sacrificing</div><div>public reset un=
der some conditions (see previous emails to the</div><div>list) and we woul=
d need to decide if it was worth keeping at all.</div><div><br></div><div><=
br></div><div>OVERVIEW</div><div>The basic idea is that each side gets to d=
ictate the connection IDs</div><div>that are used to send to it. During the=
 handshake, you establish those</div><div>CIDs and then each side can issue=
 new CIDs during the connection.=C2=A0 The</div><div>main advantage of this=
 is that it allows for symmetric topologies in which</div><div>the client i=
s also behind some kind of stateless LB/router rather than</div><div>just t=
he server. See Issue #1091 for more info on this.</div><div><br></div><div>=
<br></div><div>The overall handshake looks something like this:</div><div><=
br></div><div>Client=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 Server</div><div><br></div><div>Initial [CID=3DXXX] {recv-CID=3DYYY} --=
--------------&gt;</div><div>&lt;-------------- Cleartext [CID=3DYYY] {recv=
-CID=3DZZZ}</div><div>Cleartext [CID=3DZZZ], {recv-CID=3DYYY} -------------=
&gt;</div><div>&lt;-------------------------- Short header [CID=3DYYY]</div=
><div>Short header [CID=3DZZZ] --------------------------&gt;</div><div><br=
></div><div><br></div><div>The client&#39;s initial CID (XXX) is special, a=
nd either consists of</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (a) a randomly=
 chosen dummy CID. Proposal: require this to be</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 8 bytes or at least a minimum. This should be the same</div><div=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 for all Initial packets in a connection (unles=
s a stateless</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 reject is received, as =
below).</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (b) a CID which it received from the server=
 in a stateless reject</div><div><br></div><div>All the server&#39;s packet=
s are sent with the client&#39;s receive CID (YYY)</div><div>and all subseq=
uent client packets are sent with the server&#39;s receive</div><div>CID (Z=
ZZ). The general rule is that you should send with the</div><div>connection=
 ID that you most recently received (where recently</div><div>is defined as=
 highest PN).</div><div><br></div><div>Note: I believe it&#39;s safe to jus=
t use the sending CID as the mixin</div><div>for the KDF, but I haven&#39;t=
 thought this entirely through yet.</div><div><br></div><div>Finally, you c=
an send NEW_CONNECTION_ID in either direction to provide</div><div>a new co=
nnection ID for the other side to use. The general assumption</div><div>is =
that you can do this at any time, just as with current QUIC, and</div><div>=
that any time you send to a new remote 3-tuple you should change CIDs</div>=
<div>if you can. Note that this means that endpoints should try to make</di=
v><div>sure that the other side has spare CIDs in case they need to migrate=
.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>WIRE ENCODING</div><div>As we dis=
cussed in the meeting the short header should just have</div><div>an implic=
it length CID. This gives us the following short header:</div><div><br></di=
v><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|0|C|K| Type (=
5)|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0+=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0[Connection ID (*)]=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+=C2=A0 &lt;- change from 64</div><di=
v>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr=
>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Packe=
t Number (8/16/32)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 .=
..</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-=
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Protected Payload (*)=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0...</d=
iv><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=
-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div><br></div><div>Note that we may also be abl=
e to dispense with the C bit, if each</div><div>side just gets to say &quot=
;send me this CID exactly&quot;, why do we want</div><div>to say &quot;here=
 is my CID but you can omit it&quot;.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><d=
iv>We have several options about the long header. The first question</div><=
div>is where recv-CIDs go. In previous versions I suggested putting</div><d=
iv>them in transport parameters, or elsewhere in the TLS handshake,</div><d=
iv>and that might still be viable, though it has some drawbacks [0],</div><=
div>so the other alternative is to put both CIDs in in the long header.</di=
v><div>This would look something like:</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|1|=C2=A0 =C2=A0Type (7)=C2=A0 =
|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 DCID-Length=C2=A0 =
|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
Dst Connection ID (*)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<=
wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 SCID-Length=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=C2=A0 =C2=A0Src Connection=
 ID (*)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+=
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div=
><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Version (32)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |</div><div>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=
-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Packet Number (32)=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |</di=
v><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-=
+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Payload (*)=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 ...</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-=
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div><br></div><div>The semanti=
cs here are that the first value is the CID you want to</div><div>send to a=
nd the second one is the value you want used to send to you</div><div>(I&#3=
9;ve inverted these to keep the order the same as short header).</div><div>=
<br></div><div>Two notes about this encoding:</div><div><br></div><div>1. I=
 think we agreed that we didn&#39;t want arbitrary length CIDs up to</div><=
div>255 bytes, and yet we have room in this length byte. I propose we</div>=
<div>limit it to 31 bytes and then grease the remaining 3 bits [1].</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>2. Because the client sends its CID first, there&#39;s no=
 way to get the</div><div>current QUIC semantics of the server just dictate=
s the CID.=C2=A0 I propose</div><div>we fix that by defining a special sent=
inel CID (all 1s, all 0s,</div><div>whatever) of whatever our maximum lengt=
h is that means &quot;just use your</div><div>own CID&quot;.</div><div><br>=
</div><div>We can endlessly bikeshed on this structure.</div><div><br></div=
><div><br></div><div>Finally, we will need to update NEW_CONNECTION_ID to a=
llow a variable</div><div>length CID. This would look like this:</div><div>=
<br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A01=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A02=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A03</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 =
6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-=
+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Sequence (i)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0...</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+=
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</d=
iv><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 CID-Length=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|<=
/div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Connecti=
on ID (*)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+=
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div=
><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Stateless Reset Token (128)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><d=
iv>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-=
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</=
div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>[0] However, in the t=
ransport parameters design, if the server&#39;s</div><div>handshake gets re=
ordered, the client might need to send some ACKs with</div><div>the initial=
 CID. However, we&#39;ve agreed that the client&#39;s IP address</div><div>=
has to be stable, so this isn&#39;t a problem. Alternately, you could</div>=
<div>change C-&gt;S CIDs in the short header if that was easier.</div><div>=
<br></div><div>[1] An alternative would be to have a sparse range (e.g., yo=
u can</div><div>express 0-7 and then 8-22 by 2s, assuming I have counted co=
rrectly)</div><div>and then we could pack both lengths into a single byte. =
As I said,</div><div>lots of opportunities for bikeshedding here.</div><div=
><br></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

--94eb2c0742eceb133c0565580252--


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From: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
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Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 08:14:57 -1000
Cc: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: Asymmetric CIDs
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I like the concept, but I would like to understand how we avoid linkability o=
n migration.

-- Christian Huitema=20

> On Feb 16, 2018, at 7:52 AM, Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> Thanks for writing this up, ekr. This incorporates many of the suggestions=
 I made in objection to this project (perhaps coincidentally) and I like it a=
 lot.
>=20
> Advantages of this:
> - In the common case where most of the data is server->client, clients can=
 get away with shorter Conn IDs to reduce overhead.
> - Omit-conn-id just becomes a case where length =3D 0. Does this sidestep s=
ome of Google's transition issues?
> - If a client sends NEW_CONNECTION_ID, that indicates an intention to migr=
ate, and is a good cue for the server to send the same. We should add a SHOU=
LD to specify this behavior.
>=20
> I must be missing something, however, regarding implicit CIDs.
>=20
> If there's a NAT rebinding, how is the server supposed to extract the CID?=
 Furthermore, this obviates the entire concept of using Connection ID for ro=
uting; it's not obviously a savings to store CID length in a table vs. just s=
toring the destination server.
>=20
> Lastly, if we encode the length somewhere that seems to solve the Stateles=
s Reset issue.
>=20
>=20
>> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 9:25 AM, Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com> wrote:
>> Thanks for the excellent summary EKR.  I like this design and think the b=
reakage of stateless reset in certain cases is acceptable, since it only app=
lies if both sides must have their preferred connection ID present in order t=
o route correctly, which is a use case that's impossible in the status quo. =
 I have not come up with any other downsides.
>>=20
>>> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 12:01 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>>> Hi folks,
>>>=20
>>> After a bunch of discussion, the CID task force came down to rough
>>> consensus that asymmetric conn IDs were probably the right
>>> direction (CID task force members, please feel free to voice dissent
>>> here). Here's a complete writeup of what I think would be needed
>>> for asymmetric connection IDs. It's not a PR, because I think
>>> something self-contained is cleaner.
>>>=20
>>> Note that if we adopt this direction, we would be sacrificing
>>> public reset under some conditions (see previous emails to the
>>> list) and we would need to decide if it was worth keeping at all.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> OVERVIEW
>>> The basic idea is that each side gets to dictate the connection IDs
>>> that are used to send to it. During the handshake, you establish those
>>> CIDs and then each side can issue new CIDs during the connection.  The
>>> main advantage of this is that it allows for symmetric topologies in whi=
ch
>>> the client is also behind some kind of stateless LB/router rather than
>>> just the server. See Issue #1091 for more info on this.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> The overall handshake looks something like this:
>>>=20
>>> Client                                      Server
>>>=20
>>> Initial [CID=3DXXX] {recv-CID=3DYYY} ---------------->
>>> <-------------- Cleartext [CID=3DYYY] {recv-CID=3DZZZ}
>>> Cleartext [CID=3DZZZ], {recv-CID=3DYYY} ------------->
>>> <-------------------------- Short header [CID=3DYYY]
>>> Short header [CID=3DZZZ] -------------------------->
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> The client's initial CID (XXX) is special, and either consists of
>>>=20
>>>     (a) a randomly chosen dummy CID. Proposal: require this to be
>>>         8 bytes or at least a minimum. This should be the same
>>>         for all Initial packets in a connection (unless a stateless
>>>         reject is received, as below).
>>>     (b) a CID which it received from the server in a stateless reject
>>>=20
>>> All the server's packets are sent with the client's receive CID (YYY)
>>> and all subsequent client packets are sent with the server's receive
>>> CID (ZZZ). The general rule is that you should send with the
>>> connection ID that you most recently received (where recently
>>> is defined as highest PN).
>>>=20
>>> Note: I believe it's safe to just use the sending CID as the mixin
>>> for the KDF, but I haven't thought this entirely through yet.
>>>=20
>>> Finally, you can send NEW_CONNECTION_ID in either direction to provide
>>> a new connection ID for the other side to use. The general assumption
>>> is that you can do this at any time, just as with current QUIC, and
>>> that any time you send to a new remote 3-tuple you should change CIDs
>>> if you can. Note that this means that endpoints should try to make
>>> sure that the other side has spare CIDs in case they need to migrate.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> WIRE ENCODING
>>> As we discussed in the meeting the short header should just have
>>> an implicit length CID. This gives us the following short header:
>>>=20
>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>    |0|C|K| Type (5)|
>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>    |                                                               |
>>>    +                     [Connection ID (*)]                       +  <-=
 change from 64
>>>    |                                                               |
>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>    |                      Packet Number (8/16/32)                ...
>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>    |                     Protected Payload (*)                   ...
>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>=20
>>> Note that we may also be able to dispense with the C bit, if each
>>> side just gets to say "send me this CID exactly", why do we want
>>> to say "here is my CID but you can omit it".
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> We have several options about the long header. The first question
>>> is where recv-CIDs go. In previous versions I suggested putting
>>> them in transport parameters, or elsewhere in the TLS handshake,
>>> and that might still be viable, though it has some drawbacks [0],
>>> so the other alternative is to put both CIDs in in the long header.
>>> This would look something like:
>>>=20
>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>    |1|   Type (7)  |
>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>    |  DCID-Length  |                                               |
>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+   Dst Connection ID (*)                       +
>>>    |                                                               |
>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>    |  SCID-Length  |                                               |
>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+   Src Connection ID (*)                       +
>>>    |                                                               |
>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>    |                         Version (32)                          |
>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>    |                       Packet Number (32)                      |
>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>    |                          Payload (*)                        ...
>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>=20
>>> The semantics here are that the first value is the CID you want to
>>> send to and the second one is the value you want used to send to you
>>> (I've inverted these to keep the order the same as short header).
>>>=20
>>> Two notes about this encoding:
>>>=20
>>> 1. I think we agreed that we didn't want arbitrary length CIDs up to
>>> 255 bytes, and yet we have room in this length byte. I propose we
>>> limit it to 31 bytes and then grease the remaining 3 bits [1].
>>>=20
>>> 2. Because the client sends its CID first, there's no way to get the
>>> current QUIC semantics of the server just dictates the CID.  I propose
>>> we fix that by defining a special sentinel CID (all 1s, all 0s,
>>> whatever) of whatever our maximum length is that means "just use your
>>> own CID".
>>>=20
>>> We can endlessly bikeshed on this structure.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Finally, we will need to update NEW_CONNECTION_ID to allow a variable
>>> length CID. This would look like this:
>>>=20
>>>     0                   1                   2                   3
>>>     0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>    |                          Sequence (i)                       ...
>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>    |  CID-Length   |                                               |
>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+       Connection ID (*)                       +
>>>    |                                                               |
>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>    |                                                               |
>>>    +                                                               +
>>>    |                                                               |
>>>    +                   Stateless Reset Token (128)                 +
>>>    |                                                               |
>>>    +                                                               +
>>>    |                                                               |
>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> [0] However, in the transport parameters design, if the server's
>>> handshake gets reordered, the client might need to send some ACKs with
>>> the initial CID. However, we've agreed that the client's IP address
>>> has to be stable, so this isn't a problem. Alternately, you could
>>> change C->S CIDs in the short header if that was easier.
>>>=20
>>> [1] An alternative would be to have a sparse range (e.g., you can
>>> express 0-7 and then 8-22 by 2s, assuming I have counted correctly)
>>> and then we could pack both lengths into a single byte. As I said,
>>> lots of opportunities for bikeshedding here.
>>>=20
>>=20
>=20

--Apple-Mail-5360B801-F24E-4074-BD1C-633DD2DBA600
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto">I like the concept, but I would like to und=
erstand how we avoid linkability on migration.<br><br><div id=3D"AppleMailSi=
gnature">-- Christian Huitema&nbsp;</div><div><br>On Feb 16, 2018, at 7:52 A=
M, Martin Duke &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.h.duke@gmail.com">martin.h.duke@=
gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div di=
r=3D"ltr">Thanks for writing this up, ekr. This incorporates many of the sug=
gestions I made in objection to this project (perhaps coincidentally) and I l=
ike it a lot.<div><br></div><div>Advantages of this:</div><div>- In the comm=
on case where most of the data is server-&gt;client, clients can get away wi=
th shorter Conn IDs to reduce overhead.</div><div>- Omit-conn-id just become=
s a case where length =3D 0. Does this sidestep some of Google's transition i=
ssues?</div><div>- If a client sends NEW_CONNECTION_ID, that indicates an in=
tention to migrate, and is a good cue for the server to send the same. We sh=
ould add a SHOULD to specify this behavior.</div><div><br></div><div>I must b=
e missing something, however, regarding implicit CIDs.</div><div><br></div><=
div>If there's a NAT rebinding, how is the server supposed to extract the CI=
D? Furthermore, this obviates the entire concept of using Connection ID for r=
outing; it's not obviously a savings to store CID length in a table vs. just=
 storing the destination server.</div><div><br></div><div>Lastly, if we enco=
de the length somewhere that seems to solve the Stateless Reset issue.</div>=
<div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quot=
e">On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 9:25 AM, Ian Swett <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:ianswett@google.com" target=3D"_blank">ianswett@google.com</a>&gt;</=
span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Thanks for th=
e excellent summary EKR.&nbsp; I like this design and think the breakage of s=
tateless reset in certain cases is acceptable, since it only applies if both=
 sides must have their preferred connection ID present in order to route cor=
rectly, which is a use case that's impossible in the status quo.&nbsp; I hav=
e not come up with any other downsides.</div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div clas=
s=3D"h5"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Fe=
b 16, 2018 at 12:01 PM, Eric Rescorla <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=
c solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi folks,</div><div><br></di=
v><div>After a bunch of discussion, the CID task force came down to rough</d=
iv><div>consensus that asymmetric conn IDs were probably the right</div><div=
>direction (CID task force members, please feel free to voice dissent</div><=
div>here). Here's a complete writeup of what I think would be needed</div><d=
iv>for asymmetric connection IDs. It's not a PR, because I think</div><div>s=
omething self-contained is cleaner.</div><div><br></div><div>Note that if we=
 adopt this direction, we would be sacrificing</div><div>public reset under s=
ome conditions (see previous emails to the</div><div>list) and we would need=
 to decide if it was worth keeping at all.</div><div><br></div><div><br></di=
v><div>OVERVIEW</div><div>The basic idea is that each side gets to dictate t=
he connection IDs</div><div>that are used to send to it. During the handshak=
e, you establish those</div><div>CIDs and then each side can issue new CIDs d=
uring the connection.&nbsp; The</div><div>main advantage of this is that it a=
llows for symmetric topologies in which</div><div>the client is also behind s=
ome kind of stateless LB/router rather than</div><div>just the server. See I=
ssue #1091 for more info on this.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Th=
e overall handshake looks something like this:</div><div><br></div><div>Clie=
nt&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Server</div><div>=
<br></div><div>Initial [CID=3DXXX] {recv-CID=3DYYY} ----------------&gt;</di=
v><div>&lt;-------------- Cleartext [CID=3DYYY] {recv-CID=3DZZZ}</div><div>C=
leartext [CID=3DZZZ], {recv-CID=3DYYY} -------------&gt;</div><div>&lt;-----=
--------------------- Short header [CID=3DYYY]</div><div>Short header [CID=3D=
ZZZ] --------------------------&gt;</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>=
The client's initial CID (XXX) is special, and either consists of</div><div>=
<br></div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; (a) a randomly chosen dummy CID. Proposal: requ=
ire this to be</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 8 bytes or at least a m=
inimum. This should be the same</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; for al=
l Initial packets in a connection (unless a stateless</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; reject is received, as below).</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; (b) a=
 CID which it received from the server in a stateless reject</div><div><br><=
/div><div>All the server's packets are sent with the client's receive CID (Y=
YY)</div><div>and all subsequent client packets are sent with the server's r=
eceive</div><div>CID (ZZZ). The general rule is that you should send with th=
e</div><div>connection ID that you most recently received (where recently</d=
iv><div>is defined as highest PN).</div><div><br></div><div>Note: I believe i=
t's safe to just use the sending CID as the mixin</div><div>for the KDF, but=
 I haven't thought this entirely through yet.</div><div><br></div><div>Final=
ly, you can send NEW_CONNECTION_ID in either direction to provide</div><div>=
a new connection ID for the other side to use. The general assumption</div><=
div>is that you can do this at any time, just as with current QUIC, and</div=
><div>that any time you send to a new remote 3-tuple you should change CIDs<=
/div><div>if you can. Note that this means that endpoints should try to make=
</div><div>sure that the other side has spare CIDs in case they need to migr=
ate.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>WIRE ENCODING</div><div>As we d=
iscussed in the meeting the short header should just have</div><div>an impli=
cit length CID. This gives us the following short header:</div><div><br></di=
v><div>&nbsp; &nbsp;+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp;|0|C|K| Type (5=
)|</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp;+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp;|&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nb=
sp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;|</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp;+&nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;[Conn=
ection ID (*)]&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;=
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;+&nbsp; &lt;- change from 64</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp;|&n=
bsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;|</div><=
div>&nbsp; &nbsp;+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-=
+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp;|&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Packet Number (8/16/32)&nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; ...</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp;+-+-+=
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div>=
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp;|&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Protected Payload (*)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;...</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp;+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-=
+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div><br></=
div><div>Note that we may also be able to dispense with the C bit, if each</=
div><div>side just gets to say "send me this CID exactly", why do we want</d=
iv><div>to say "here is my CID but you can omit it".</div><div><br></div><di=
v><br></div><div>We have several options about the long header. The first qu=
estion</div><div>is where recv-CIDs go. In previous versions I suggested put=
ting</div><div>them in transport parameters, or elsewhere in the TLS handsha=
ke,</div><div>and that might still be viable, though it has some drawbacks [=
0],</div><div>so the other alternative is to put both CIDs in in the long he=
ader.</div><div>This would look something like:</div><div><br></div><div>&nb=
sp; &nbsp;+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp;|1|&nbsp; &nbsp;Type (7)&=
nbsp; |</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp;+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-=
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp;|&nbsp; DCID-Length&nb=
sp; |&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;|</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp;+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+&nbsp; &nbsp;Ds=
t Connection ID (*)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;+</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp;|&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nb=
sp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;|</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp;+-+-=
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div=
><div>&nbsp; &nbsp;|&nbsp; SCID-Length&nbsp; |&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;|</div><div>&nb=
sp; &nbsp;+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+&nbsp; &nbsp;Src Connection ID (*)&nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;+</div><=
div>&nbsp; &nbsp;|&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp;|</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp;+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-=
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp;|&nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;V=
ersion (32)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp;+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=
-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp;|&=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp;Packet Number (32)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp;+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=
-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp;|&nb=
sp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nbsp; Payload (*)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; ...</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp;+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-=
+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div><br></di=
v><div>The semantics here are that the first value is the CID you want to</d=
iv><div>send to and the second one is the value you want used to send to you=
</div><div>(I've inverted these to keep the order the same as short header).=
</div><div><br></div><div>Two notes about this encoding:</div><div><br></div=
><div>1. I think we agreed that we didn't want arbitrary length CIDs up to</=
div><div>255 bytes, and yet we have room in this length byte. I propose we</=
div><div>limit it to 31 bytes and then grease the remaining 3 bits [1].</div=
><div><br></div><div>2. Because the client sends its CID first, there's no w=
ay to get the</div><div>current QUIC semantics of the server just dictates t=
he CID.&nbsp; I propose</div><div>we fix that by defining a special sentinel=
 CID (all 1s, all 0s,</div><div>whatever) of whatever our maximum length is t=
hat means "just use your</div><div>own CID".</div><div><br></div><div>We can=
 endlessly bikeshed on this structure.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><d=
iv>Finally, we will need to update NEW_CONNECTION_ID to allow a variable</di=
v><div>length CID. This would look like this:</div><div><br></div><div>&nbsp=
; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nb=
sp;1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;2&n=
bsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;3</div><d=
iv>&nbsp; &nbsp; 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9=
 0 1</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp;+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp;|&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nb=
sp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Sequence (=
i)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp;...</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp;+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+=
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp;|&nbsp; CID-Lengt=
h&nbsp; &nbsp;|&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;|</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp;+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+&nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Connection ID (*)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;+</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp;|&nb=
sp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;|</div><=
div>&nbsp; &nbsp;+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-=
+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp;|&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;|</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp;+&nbsp; &nbsp; &nb=
sp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;+</div><div>&nbsp; &nb=
sp;|&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;|=
</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp;+&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;Stateless Reset Token (128)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nb=
sp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;+</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp;|&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nb=
sp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;|</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp=
;+&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nb=
sp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;+</=
div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp;|&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nb=
sp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;|</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp;+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr=
>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div><br></div><div><br></di=
v><div><br></div><div>[0] However, in the transport parameters design, if th=
e server's</div><div>handshake gets reordered, the client might need to send=
 some ACKs with</div><div>the initial CID. However, we've agreed that the cl=
ient's IP address</div><div>has to be stable, so this isn't a problem. Alter=
nately, you could</div><div>change C-&gt;S CIDs in the short header if that w=
as easier.</div><div><br></div><div>[1] An alternative would be to have a sp=
arse range (e.g., you can</div><div>express 0-7 and then 8-22 by 2s, assumin=
g I have counted correctly)</div><div>and then we could pack both lengths in=
to a single byte. As I said,</div><div>lots of opportunities for bikesheddin=
g here.</div><div><br></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></blockquote></body></html>=

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From: Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>
To: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>
CC: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, "Eric Rescorla" <ekr@rtfm.com>
Subject: Re: Asymmetric CIDs
Thread-Topic: Asymmetric CIDs
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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 10:38:55 -0800
Message-ID: <CABcZeBOyiOwyd=UFHfAxzXx=Gv_5MdZwvGkk5vHHM7m3BGCqxA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Asymmetric CIDs
To: Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>
Cc: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 9:52 AM, Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Thanks for writing this up, ekr. This incorporates many of the suggestions
> I made in objection to this project (perhaps coincidentally) and I like it
> a lot.
>
> Advantages of this:
> - In the common case where most of the data is server->client, clients can
> get away with shorter Conn IDs to reduce overhead.
> - Omit-conn-id just becomes a case where length = 0. Does this sidestep
> some of Google's transition issues?
> - If a client sends NEW_CONNECTION_ID, that indicates an intention to
> migrate, and is a good cue for the server to send the same. We should add a
> SHOULD to specify this behavior.
>
> I must be missing something, however, regarding implicit CIDs.
>
> If there's a NAT rebinding, how is the server supposed to extract the CID?
>

The assumption is that the server either:

(a) always uses the same CID length
(b) has a structured CID which starts with the length.

But that we don't need to mandate which one in the protoocl


> Furthermore, this obviates the entire concept of using Connection ID for
> routing; it's not obviously a savings to store CID length in a table vs.
> just storing the destination server.
>

I don't think you hae to do this, but maybe I am confused. See above and
tell me if you think I'm wrong

-Ekr


> Lastly, if we encode the length somewhere that seems to solve the
> Stateless Reset issue.
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 9:25 AM, Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com> wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the excellent summary EKR.  I like this design and think the
>> breakage of stateless reset in certain cases is acceptable, since it only
>> applies if both sides must have their preferred connection ID present in
>> order to route correctly, which is a use case that's impossible in the
>> status quo.  I have not come up with any other downsides.
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 12:01 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi folks,
>>>
>>> After a bunch of discussion, the CID task force came down to rough
>>> consensus that asymmetric conn IDs were probably the right
>>> direction (CID task force members, please feel free to voice dissent
>>> here). Here's a complete writeup of what I think would be needed
>>> for asymmetric connection IDs. It's not a PR, because I think
>>> something self-contained is cleaner.
>>>
>>> Note that if we adopt this direction, we would be sacrificing
>>> public reset under some conditions (see previous emails to the
>>> list) and we would need to decide if it was worth keeping at all.
>>>
>>>
>>> OVERVIEW
>>> The basic idea is that each side gets to dictate the connection IDs
>>> that are used to send to it. During the handshake, you establish those
>>> CIDs and then each side can issue new CIDs during the connection.  The
>>> main advantage of this is that it allows for symmetric topologies in
>>> which
>>> the client is also behind some kind of stateless LB/router rather than
>>> just the server. See Issue #1091 for more info on this.
>>>
>>>
>>> The overall handshake looks something like this:
>>>
>>> Client                                      Server
>>>
>>> Initial [CID=XXX] {recv-CID=YYY} ---------------->
>>> <-------------- Cleartext [CID=YYY] {recv-CID=ZZZ}
>>> Cleartext [CID=ZZZ], {recv-CID=YYY} ------------->
>>> <-------------------------- Short header [CID=YYY]
>>> Short header [CID=ZZZ] -------------------------->
>>>
>>>
>>> The client's initial CID (XXX) is special, and either consists of
>>>
>>>     (a) a randomly chosen dummy CID. Proposal: require this to be
>>>         8 bytes or at least a minimum. This should be the same
>>>         for all Initial packets in a connection (unless a stateless
>>>         reject is received, as below).
>>>     (b) a CID which it received from the server in a stateless reject
>>>
>>> All the server's packets are sent with the client's receive CID (YYY)
>>> and all subsequent client packets are sent with the server's receive
>>> CID (ZZZ). The general rule is that you should send with the
>>> connection ID that you most recently received (where recently
>>> is defined as highest PN).
>>>
>>> Note: I believe it's safe to just use the sending CID as the mixin
>>> for the KDF, but I haven't thought this entirely through yet.
>>>
>>> Finally, you can send NEW_CONNECTION_ID in either direction to provide
>>> a new connection ID for the other side to use. The general assumption
>>> is that you can do this at any time, just as with current QUIC, and
>>> that any time you send to a new remote 3-tuple you should change CIDs
>>> if you can. Note that this means that endpoints should try to make
>>> sure that the other side has spare CIDs in case they need to migrate.
>>>
>>>
>>> WIRE ENCODING
>>> As we discussed in the meeting the short header should just have
>>> an implicit length CID. This gives us the following short header:
>>>
>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>    |0|C|K| Type (5)|
>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>    |                                                               |
>>>    +                     [Connection ID (*)]                       +  <-
>>> change from 64
>>>    |                                                               |
>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>    |                      Packet Number (8/16/32)                ...
>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>    |                     Protected Payload (*)                   ...
>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>
>>> Note that we may also be able to dispense with the C bit, if each
>>> side just gets to say "send me this CID exactly", why do we want
>>> to say "here is my CID but you can omit it".
>>>
>>>
>>> We have several options about the long header. The first question
>>> is where recv-CIDs go. In previous versions I suggested putting
>>> them in transport parameters, or elsewhere in the TLS handshake,
>>> and that might still be viable, though it has some drawbacks [0],
>>> so the other alternative is to put both CIDs in in the long header.
>>> This would look something like:
>>>
>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>    |1|   Type (7)  |
>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>    |  DCID-Length  |                                               |
>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+   Dst Connection ID (*)                       +
>>>    |                                                               |
>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>    |  SCID-Length  |                                               |
>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+   Src Connection ID (*)                       +
>>>    |                                                               |
>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>    |                         Version (32)                          |
>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>    |                       Packet Number (32)                      |
>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>    |                          Payload (*)                        ...
>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>
>>> The semantics here are that the first value is the CID you want to
>>> send to and the second one is the value you want used to send to you
>>> (I've inverted these to keep the order the same as short header).
>>>
>>> Two notes about this encoding:
>>>
>>> 1. I think we agreed that we didn't want arbitrary length CIDs up to
>>> 255 bytes, and yet we have room in this length byte. I propose we
>>> limit it to 31 bytes and then grease the remaining 3 bits [1].
>>>
>>> 2. Because the client sends its CID first, there's no way to get the
>>> current QUIC semantics of the server just dictates the CID.  I propose
>>> we fix that by defining a special sentinel CID (all 1s, all 0s,
>>> whatever) of whatever our maximum length is that means "just use your
>>> own CID".
>>>
>>> We can endlessly bikeshed on this structure.
>>>
>>>
>>> Finally, we will need to update NEW_CONNECTION_ID to allow a variable
>>> length CID. This would look like this:
>>>
>>>     0                   1                   2                   3
>>>     0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>    |                          Sequence (i)                       ...
>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>    |  CID-Length   |                                               |
>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+       Connection ID (*)                       +
>>>    |                                                               |
>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>    |                                                               |
>>>    +                                                               +
>>>    |                                                               |
>>>    +                   Stateless Reset Token (128)                 +
>>>    |                                                               |
>>>    +                                                               +
>>>    |                                                               |
>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> [0] However, in the transport parameters design, if the server's
>>> handshake gets reordered, the client might need to send some ACKs with
>>> the initial CID. However, we've agreed that the client's IP address
>>> has to be stable, so this isn't a problem. Alternately, you could
>>> change C->S CIDs in the short header if that was easier.
>>>
>>> [1] An alternative would be to have a sparse range (e.g., you can
>>> express 0-7 and then 8-22 by 2s, assuming I have counted correctly)
>>> and then we could pack both lengths into a single byte. As I said,
>>> lots of opportunities for bikeshedding here.
>>>
>>>
>>
>

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 9:52 AM, Martin Duke <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:martin.h.duke@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">martin.h.duke@gmai=
l.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"l=
tr">Thanks for writing this up, ekr. This incorporates many of the suggesti=
ons I made in objection to this project (perhaps coincidentally) and I like=
 it a lot.<div><br></div><div>Advantages of this:</div><div>- In the common=
 case where most of the data is server-&gt;client, clients can get away wit=
h shorter Conn IDs to reduce overhead.</div><div>- Omit-conn-id just become=
s a case where length =3D 0. Does this sidestep some of Google&#39;s transi=
tion issues?</div><div>- If a client sends NEW_CONNECTION_ID, that indicate=
s an intention to migrate, and is a good cue for the server to send the sam=
e. We should add a SHOULD to specify this behavior.</div><div><br></div><di=
v>I must be missing something, however, regarding implicit CIDs.</div><div>=
<br></div><div>If there&#39;s a NAT rebinding, how is the server supposed t=
o extract the CID? </div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The assumpt=
ion is that the server either:</div><div><br></div><div>(a) always uses the=
 same CID length</div><div>(b) has a structured CID which starts with the l=
ength.</div><div><br></div><div>But that we don&#39;t need to mandate which=
 one in the protoocl</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Furthermore, this obviates the entire concept of using=
 Connection ID for routing; it&#39;s not obviously a savings to store CID l=
ength in a table vs. just storing the destination server.</div></div></bloc=
kquote><div><br></div><div>I don&#39;t think you hae to do this, but maybe =
I am confused. See above and tell me if you think I&#39;m wrong</div><div><=
br></div><div>-Ekr</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
yle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div =
dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Lastly, if we encode the length somewhere t=
hat seems to solve the Stateless Reset issue.</div><div><br></div></div><di=
v class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 9:25 AM, Ian Swett <span dir=3D=
"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ianswett@google.com" target=3D"_blank">ianswett=
@google.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div di=
r=3D"ltr">Thanks for the excellent summary EKR.=C2=A0 I like this design an=
d think the breakage of stateless reset in certain cases is acceptable, sin=
ce it only applies if both sides must have their preferred connection ID pr=
esent in order to route correctly, which is a use case that&#39;s impossibl=
e in the status quo.=C2=A0 I have not come up with any other downsides.</di=
v><div class=3D"m_-4542502491769540613HOEnZb"><div class=3D"m_-454250249176=
9540613h5"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri=
, Feb 16, 2018 at 12:01 PM, Eric Rescorla <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<b=
r><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:=
1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi folks,</div><div>=
<br></div><div>After a bunch of discussion, the CID task force came down to=
 rough</div><div>consensus that asymmetric conn IDs were probably the right=
</div><div>direction (CID task force members, please feel free to voice dis=
sent</div><div>here). Here&#39;s a complete writeup of what I think would b=
e needed</div><div>for asymmetric connection IDs. It&#39;s not a PR, becaus=
e I think</div><div>something self-contained is cleaner.</div><div><br></di=
v><div>Note that if we adopt this direction, we would be sacrificing</div><=
div>public reset under some conditions (see previous emails to the</div><di=
v>list) and we would need to decide if it was worth keeping at all.</div><d=
iv><br></div><div><br></div><div>OVERVIEW</div><div>The basic idea is that =
each side gets to dictate the connection IDs</div><div>that are used to sen=
d to it. During the handshake, you establish those</div><div>CIDs and then =
each side can issue new CIDs during the connection.=C2=A0 The</div><div>mai=
n advantage of this is that it allows for symmetric topologies in which</di=
v><div>the client is also behind some kind of stateless LB/router rather th=
an</div><div>just the server. See Issue #1091 for more info on this.</div><=
div><br></div><div><br></div><div>The overall handshake looks something lik=
e this:</div><div><br></div><div>Client=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Server</div><div><br></div><div>Initial [CID=3DXXX=
] {recv-CID=3DYYY} ----------------&gt;</div><div>&lt;-------------- Cleart=
ext [CID=3DYYY] {recv-CID=3DZZZ}</div><div>Cleartext [CID=3DZZZ], {recv-CID=
=3DYYY} -------------&gt;</div><div>&lt;-------------------------- Short he=
ader [CID=3DYYY]</div><div>Short header [CID=3DZZZ] -----------------------=
---&gt;</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>The client&#39;s initial CI=
D (XXX) is special, and either consists of</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 (a) a randomly chosen dummy CID. Proposal: require this to be</div><=
div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 8 bytes or at least a minimum. This should =
be the same</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 for all Initial packets i=
n a connection (unless a stateless</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 re=
ject is received, as below).</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (b) a CID which it rec=
eived from the server in a stateless reject</div><div><br></div><div>All th=
e server&#39;s packets are sent with the client&#39;s receive CID (YYY)</di=
v><div>and all subsequent client packets are sent with the server&#39;s rec=
eive</div><div>CID (ZZZ). The general rule is that you should send with the=
</div><div>connection ID that you most recently received (where recently</d=
iv><div>is defined as highest PN).</div><div><br></div><div>Note: I believe=
 it&#39;s safe to just use the sending CID as the mixin</div><div>for the K=
DF, but I haven&#39;t thought this entirely through yet.</div><div><br></di=
v><div>Finally, you can send NEW_CONNECTION_ID in either direction to provi=
de</div><div>a new connection ID for the other side to use. The general ass=
umption</div><div>is that you can do this at any time, just as with current=
 QUIC, and</div><div>that any time you send to a new remote 3-tuple you sho=
uld change CIDs</div><div>if you can. Note that this means that endpoints s=
hould try to make</div><div>sure that the other side has spare CIDs in case=
 they need to migrate.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>WIRE ENCODIN=
G</div><div>As we discussed in the meeting the short header should just hav=
e</div><div>an implicit length CID. This gives us the following short heade=
r:</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0=
 =C2=A0|0|C|K| Type (5)|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=
-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[Connection ID (*)]=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+=C2=A0 &lt;- ch=
ange from 64</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-=
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Packet Number (8/16/32)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ...</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-=
+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0Protected Payload (*)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0...</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-=
+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div><br></div><div>No=
te that we may also be able to dispense with the C bit, if each</div><div>s=
ide just gets to say &quot;send me this CID exactly&quot;, why do we want</=
div><div>to say &quot;here is my CID but you can omit it&quot;.</div><div><=
br></div><div><br></div><div>We have several options about the long header.=
 The first question</div><div>is where recv-CIDs go. In previous versions I=
 suggested putting</div><div>them in transport parameters, or elsewhere in =
the TLS handshake,</div><div>and that might still be viable, though it has =
some drawbacks [0],</div><div>so the other alternative is to put both CIDs =
in in the long header.</div><div>This would look something like:</div><div>=
<br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|1|=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0Type (7)=C2=A0 |</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=
-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=
=C2=A0 DCID-Length=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+=
-+-+-+-+-+-+=C2=A0 =C2=A0Dst Connection ID (*)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+</div><div>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+=
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 SCID-Len=
gth=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Src Connection ID (*)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div=
><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=
-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Version (32)=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 |</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+=
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Pa=
cket Number (32)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wb=
r>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 Payload (*)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ...</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-=
+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div><br><=
/div><div>The semantics here are that the first value is the CID you want t=
o</div><div>send to and the second one is the value you want used to send t=
o you</div><div>(I&#39;ve inverted these to keep the order the same as shor=
t header).</div><div><br></div><div>Two notes about this encoding:</div><di=
v><br></div><div>1. I think we agreed that we didn&#39;t want arbitrary len=
gth CIDs up to</div><div>255 bytes, and yet we have room in this length byt=
e. I propose we</div><div>limit it to 31 bytes and then grease the remainin=
g 3 bits [1].</div><div><br></div><div>2. Because the client sends its CID =
first, there&#39;s no way to get the</div><div>current QUIC semantics of th=
e server just dictates the CID.=C2=A0 I propose</div><div>we fix that by de=
fining a special sentinel CID (all 1s, all 0s,</div><div>whatever) of whate=
ver our maximum length is that means &quot;just use your</div><div>own CID&=
quot;.</div><div><br></div><div>We can endlessly bikeshed on this structure=
.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Finally, we will need to update N=
EW_CONNECTION_ID to allow a variable</div><div>length CID. This would look =
like this:</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A01=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A02=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A03</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 0 1 2 3 4 5=
 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-=
+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Sequence (i)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0...</div>=
<div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-=
+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 CID-Length=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Connection ID (*)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div=
><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=
-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+<=
/div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Stateless Reset Token (128)=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+</div><div>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|<=
/div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=
-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><=
div>[0] However, in the transport parameters design, if the server&#39;s</d=
iv><div>handshake gets reordered, the client might need to send some ACKs w=
ith</div><div>the initial CID. However, we&#39;ve agreed that the client&#3=
9;s IP address</div><div>has to be stable, so this isn&#39;t a problem. Alt=
ernately, you could</div><div>change C-&gt;S CIDs in the short header if th=
at was easier.</div><div><br></div><div>[1] An alternative would be to have=
 a sparse range (e.g., you can</div><div>express 0-7 and then 8-22 by 2s, a=
ssuming I have counted correctly)</div><div>and then we could pack both len=
gths into a single byte. As I said,</div><div>lots of opportunities for bik=
eshedding here.</div><div><br></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--94eb2c03548487955f056558aab4--


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Subject: Re: Asymmetric CIDs
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That sounds workable to me. Thanks for clarifying. However, if this is the
case then how is Stateless Reset broken?

If a load balancer is encoding different lengths in the CID, that
introduces additional overhead to a LB/Server communication protocol as
I've drafted. It's solvable but annoying.


On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 10:38 AM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 9:52 AM, Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Thanks for writing this up, ekr. This incorporates many of the
>> suggestions I made in objection to this project (perhaps coincidentally)
>> and I like it a lot.
>>
>> Advantages of this:
>> - In the common case where most of the data is server->client, clients
>> can get away with shorter Conn IDs to reduce overhead.
>> - Omit-conn-id just becomes a case where length = 0. Does this sidestep
>> some of Google's transition issues?
>> - If a client sends NEW_CONNECTION_ID, that indicates an intention to
>> migrate, and is a good cue for the server to send the same. We should add a
>> SHOULD to specify this behavior.
>>
>> I must be missing something, however, regarding implicit CIDs.
>>
>> If there's a NAT rebinding, how is the server supposed to extract the
>> CID?
>>
>
> The assumption is that the server either:
>
> (a) always uses the same CID length
> (b) has a structured CID which starts with the length.
>
> But that we don't need to mandate which one in the protoocl
>
>
>> Furthermore, this obviates the entire concept of using Connection ID for
>> routing; it's not obviously a savings to store CID length in a table vs.
>> just storing the destination server.
>>
>
> I don't think you hae to do this, but maybe I am confused. See above and
> tell me if you think I'm wrong
>
> -Ekr
>
>
>> Lastly, if we encode the length somewhere that seems to solve the
>> Stateless Reset issue.
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 9:25 AM, Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks for the excellent summary EKR.  I like this design and think the
>>> breakage of stateless reset in certain cases is acceptable, since it only
>>> applies if both sides must have their preferred connection ID present in
>>> order to route correctly, which is a use case that's impossible in the
>>> status quo.  I have not come up with any other downsides.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 12:01 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi folks,
>>>>
>>>> After a bunch of discussion, the CID task force came down to rough
>>>> consensus that asymmetric conn IDs were probably the right
>>>> direction (CID task force members, please feel free to voice dissent
>>>> here). Here's a complete writeup of what I think would be needed
>>>> for asymmetric connection IDs. It's not a PR, because I think
>>>> something self-contained is cleaner.
>>>>
>>>> Note that if we adopt this direction, we would be sacrificing
>>>> public reset under some conditions (see previous emails to the
>>>> list) and we would need to decide if it was worth keeping at all.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> OVERVIEW
>>>> The basic idea is that each side gets to dictate the connection IDs
>>>> that are used to send to it. During the handshake, you establish those
>>>> CIDs and then each side can issue new CIDs during the connection.  The
>>>> main advantage of this is that it allows for symmetric topologies in
>>>> which
>>>> the client is also behind some kind of stateless LB/router rather than
>>>> just the server. See Issue #1091 for more info on this.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The overall handshake looks something like this:
>>>>
>>>> Client                                      Server
>>>>
>>>> Initial [CID=XXX] {recv-CID=YYY} ---------------->
>>>> <-------------- Cleartext [CID=YYY] {recv-CID=ZZZ}
>>>> Cleartext [CID=ZZZ], {recv-CID=YYY} ------------->
>>>> <-------------------------- Short header [CID=YYY]
>>>> Short header [CID=ZZZ] -------------------------->
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The client's initial CID (XXX) is special, and either consists of
>>>>
>>>>     (a) a randomly chosen dummy CID. Proposal: require this to be
>>>>         8 bytes or at least a minimum. This should be the same
>>>>         for all Initial packets in a connection (unless a stateless
>>>>         reject is received, as below).
>>>>     (b) a CID which it received from the server in a stateless reject
>>>>
>>>> All the server's packets are sent with the client's receive CID (YYY)
>>>> and all subsequent client packets are sent with the server's receive
>>>> CID (ZZZ). The general rule is that you should send with the
>>>> connection ID that you most recently received (where recently
>>>> is defined as highest PN).
>>>>
>>>> Note: I believe it's safe to just use the sending CID as the mixin
>>>> for the KDF, but I haven't thought this entirely through yet.
>>>>
>>>> Finally, you can send NEW_CONNECTION_ID in either direction to provide
>>>> a new connection ID for the other side to use. The general assumption
>>>> is that you can do this at any time, just as with current QUIC, and
>>>> that any time you send to a new remote 3-tuple you should change CIDs
>>>> if you can. Note that this means that endpoints should try to make
>>>> sure that the other side has spare CIDs in case they need to migrate.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> WIRE ENCODING
>>>> As we discussed in the meeting the short header should just have
>>>> an implicit length CID. This gives us the following short header:
>>>>
>>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>>    |0|C|K| Type (5)|
>>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>>    |                                                               |
>>>>    +                     [Connection ID (*)]                       +
>>>> <- change from 64
>>>>    |                                                               |
>>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>>    |                      Packet Number (8/16/32)                ...
>>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>>    |                     Protected Payload (*)                   ...
>>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>>
>>>> Note that we may also be able to dispense with the C bit, if each
>>>> side just gets to say "send me this CID exactly", why do we want
>>>> to say "here is my CID but you can omit it".
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We have several options about the long header. The first question
>>>> is where recv-CIDs go. In previous versions I suggested putting
>>>> them in transport parameters, or elsewhere in the TLS handshake,
>>>> and that might still be viable, though it has some drawbacks [0],
>>>> so the other alternative is to put both CIDs in in the long header.
>>>> This would look something like:
>>>>
>>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>>    |1|   Type (7)  |
>>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>>    |  DCID-Length  |                                               |
>>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+   Dst Connection ID (*)                       +
>>>>    |                                                               |
>>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>>    |  SCID-Length  |                                               |
>>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+   Src Connection ID (*)                       +
>>>>    |                                                               |
>>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>>    |                         Version (32)                          |
>>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>>    |                       Packet Number (32)                      |
>>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>>    |                          Payload (*)                        ...
>>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>>
>>>> The semantics here are that the first value is the CID you want to
>>>> send to and the second one is the value you want used to send to you
>>>> (I've inverted these to keep the order the same as short header).
>>>>
>>>> Two notes about this encoding:
>>>>
>>>> 1. I think we agreed that we didn't want arbitrary length CIDs up to
>>>> 255 bytes, and yet we have room in this length byte. I propose we
>>>> limit it to 31 bytes and then grease the remaining 3 bits [1].
>>>>
>>>> 2. Because the client sends its CID first, there's no way to get the
>>>> current QUIC semantics of the server just dictates the CID.  I propose
>>>> we fix that by defining a special sentinel CID (all 1s, all 0s,
>>>> whatever) of whatever our maximum length is that means "just use your
>>>> own CID".
>>>>
>>>> We can endlessly bikeshed on this structure.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Finally, we will need to update NEW_CONNECTION_ID to allow a variable
>>>> length CID. This would look like this:
>>>>
>>>>     0                   1                   2                   3
>>>>     0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
>>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>>    |                          Sequence (i)                       ...
>>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>>    |  CID-Length   |                                               |
>>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+       Connection ID (*)                       +
>>>>    |                                                               |
>>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>>    |                                                               |
>>>>    +                                                               +
>>>>    |                                                               |
>>>>    +                   Stateless Reset Token (128)                 +
>>>>    |                                                               |
>>>>    +                                                               +
>>>>    |                                                               |
>>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> [0] However, in the transport parameters design, if the server's
>>>> handshake gets reordered, the client might need to send some ACKs with
>>>> the initial CID. However, we've agreed that the client's IP address
>>>> has to be stable, so this isn't a problem. Alternately, you could
>>>> change C->S CIDs in the short header if that was easier.
>>>>
>>>> [1] An alternative would be to have a sparse range (e.g., you can
>>>> express 0-7 and then 8-22 by 2s, assuming I have counted correctly)
>>>> and then we could pack both lengths into a single byte. As I said,
>>>> lots of opportunities for bikeshedding here.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>That sounds workable to me. Thanks for clarifying. How=
ever, if this is the case then how is Stateless Reset broken?<div><br></div=
><div>If a load balancer is encoding different lengths in the CID, that int=
roduces additional overhead to a LB/Server communication protocol as I&#39;=
ve drafted. It&#39;s solvable but annoying.<br></div><div><br></div></div><=
div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Feb 16, 20=
18 at 10:38 AM, Eric Rescorla <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@r=
tfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc sol=
id;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_quote"><span class=3D"">On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 9:52 AM, =
Martin Duke <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.h.duke@gmail.com=
" target=3D"_blank">martin.h.duke@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc=
 solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Thanks for writing this up, ekr. =
This incorporates many of the suggestions I made in objection to this proje=
ct (perhaps coincidentally) and I like it a lot.<div><br></div><div>Advanta=
ges of this:</div><div>- In the common case where most of the data is serve=
r-&gt;client, clients can get away with shorter Conn IDs to reduce overhead=
.</div><div>- Omit-conn-id just becomes a case where length =3D 0. Does thi=
s sidestep some of Google&#39;s transition issues?</div><div>- If a client =
sends NEW_CONNECTION_ID, that indicates an intention to migrate, and is a g=
ood cue for the server to send the same. We should add a SHOULD to specify =
this behavior.</div><div><br></div><div>I must be missing something, howeve=
r, regarding implicit CIDs.</div><div><br></div><div>If there&#39;s a NAT r=
ebinding, how is the server supposed to extract the CID? </div></div></bloc=
kquote><div><br></div></span><div>The assumption is that the server either:=
</div><div><br></div><div>(a) always uses the same CID length</div><div>(b)=
 has a structured CID which starts with the length.</div><div><br></div><di=
v>But that we don&#39;t need to mandate which one in the protoocl</div><spa=
n class=3D""><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"lt=
r"><div>Furthermore, this obviates the entire concept of using Connection I=
D for routing; it&#39;s not obviously a savings to store CID length in a ta=
ble vs. just storing the destination server.</div></div></blockquote><div><=
br></div></span><div>I don&#39;t think you hae to do this, but maybe I am c=
onfused. See above and tell me if you think I&#39;m wrong</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>-Ekr</div><div><div class=3D"h5"><div><br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Lastly, if we encode the=
 length somewhere that seems to solve the Stateless Reset issue.</div><div>=
<br></div></div><div class=3D"m_-8182407008406645295HOEnZb"><div class=3D"m=
_-8182407008406645295h5"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote">On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 9:25 AM, Ian Swett <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:ianswett@google.com" target=3D"_blank">ianswett@google.com<=
/a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Th=
anks for the excellent summary EKR.=C2=A0 I like this design and think the =
breakage of stateless reset in certain cases is acceptable, since it only a=
pplies if both sides must have their preferred connection ID present in ord=
er to route correctly, which is a use case that&#39;s impossible in the sta=
tus quo.=C2=A0 I have not come up with any other downsides.</div><div class=
=3D"m_-8182407008406645295m_-4542502491769540613HOEnZb"><div class=3D"m_-81=
82407008406645295m_-4542502491769540613h5"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><=
div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 12:01 PM, Eric Rescorla <=
span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@=
rtfm.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div>Hi folks,</div><div><br></div><div>After a bunch of discussio=
n, the CID task force came down to rough</div><div>consensus that asymmetri=
c conn IDs were probably the right</div><div>direction (CID task force memb=
ers, please feel free to voice dissent</div><div>here). Here&#39;s a comple=
te writeup of what I think would be needed</div><div>for asymmetric connect=
ion IDs. It&#39;s not a PR, because I think</div><div>something self-contai=
ned is cleaner.</div><div><br></div><div>Note that if we adopt this directi=
on, we would be sacrificing</div><div>public reset under some conditions (s=
ee previous emails to the</div><div>list) and we would need to decide if it=
 was worth keeping at all.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>OVERVIEW=
</div><div>The basic idea is that each side gets to dictate the connection =
IDs</div><div>that are used to send to it. During the handshake, you establ=
ish those</div><div>CIDs and then each side can issue new CIDs during the c=
onnection.=C2=A0 The</div><div>main advantage of this is that it allows for=
 symmetric topologies in which</div><div>the client is also behind some kin=
d of stateless LB/router rather than</div><div>just the server. See Issue #=
1091 for more info on this.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>The ove=
rall handshake looks something like this:</div><div><br></div><div>Client=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Server</div><di=
v><br></div><div>Initial [CID=3DXXX] {recv-CID=3DYYY} ----------------&gt;<=
/div><div>&lt;-------------- Cleartext [CID=3DYYY] {recv-CID=3DZZZ}</div><d=
iv>Cleartext [CID=3DZZZ], {recv-CID=3DYYY} -------------&gt;</div><div>&lt;=
-------------------------- Short header [CID=3DYYY]</div><div>Short header =
[CID=3DZZZ] --------------------------&gt;</div><div><br></div><div><br></d=
iv><div>The client&#39;s initial CID (XXX) is special, and either consists =
of</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (a) a randomly chosen dummy CID. =
Proposal: require this to be</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 8 bytes =
or at least a minimum. This should be the same</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 for all Initial packets in a connection (unless a stateless</div=
><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 reject is received, as below).</div><div>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (b) a CID which it received from the server in a stateless re=
ject</div><div><br></div><div>All the server&#39;s packets are sent with th=
e client&#39;s receive CID (YYY)</div><div>and all subsequent client packet=
s are sent with the server&#39;s receive</div><div>CID (ZZZ). The general r=
ule is that you should send with the</div><div>connection ID that you most =
recently received (where recently</div><div>is defined as highest PN).</div=
><div><br></div><div>Note: I believe it&#39;s safe to just use the sending =
CID as the mixin</div><div>for the KDF, but I haven&#39;t thought this enti=
rely through yet.</div><div><br></div><div>Finally, you can send NEW_CONNEC=
TION_ID in either direction to provide</div><div>a new connection ID for th=
e other side to use. The general assumption</div><div>is that you can do th=
is at any time, just as with current QUIC, and</div><div>that any time you =
send to a new remote 3-tuple you should change CIDs</div><div>if you can. N=
ote that this means that endpoints should try to make</div><div>sure that t=
he other side has spare CIDs in case they need to migrate.</div><div><br></=
div><div><br></div><div>WIRE ENCODING</div><div>As we discussed in the meet=
ing the short header should just have</div><div>an implicit length CID. Thi=
s gives us the following short header:</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|0|C|K| Type (5)|</div><div>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<=
wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[Connecti=
on ID (*)]=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+=C2=A0 &lt;- change from 64</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-=
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Packet Number (8/16=
/32)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ...</div><div>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=
-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Protected Payload (*)=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0...</div><div>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<=
wbr>-+-+-+</div><div><br></div><div>Note that we may also be able to dispen=
se with the C bit, if each</div><div>side just gets to say &quot;send me th=
is CID exactly&quot;, why do we want</div><div>to say &quot;here is my CID =
but you can omit it&quot;.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>We have =
several options about the long header. The first question</div><div>is wher=
e recv-CIDs go. In previous versions I suggested putting</div><div>them in =
transport parameters, or elsewhere in the TLS handshake,</div><div>and that=
 might still be viable, though it has some drawbacks [0],</div><div>so the =
other alternative is to put both CIDs in in the long header.</div><div>This=
 would look something like:</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+=
-+-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|1|=C2=A0 =C2=A0Type (7)=C2=A0 |</div><div>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=
-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 DCID-Length=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=C2=A0 =C2=A0Dst Connec=
tion ID (*)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-=
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</=
div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 SCID-Length=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div=
><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=C2=A0 =C2=A0Src Connection ID (*)=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-=
+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Version (32)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |</div><div>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>=
-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Packet Number (32)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |</div><div>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=
-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Payload (*)=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 ...</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+=
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div><br></div><div>The semantics here=
 are that the first value is the CID you want to</div><div>send to and the =
second one is the value you want used to send to you</div><div>(I&#39;ve in=
verted these to keep the order the same as short header).</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>Two notes about this encoding:</div><div><br></div><div>1. I think =
we agreed that we didn&#39;t want arbitrary length CIDs up to</div><div>255=
 bytes, and yet we have room in this length byte. I propose we</div><div>li=
mit it to 31 bytes and then grease the remaining 3 bits [1].</div><div><br>=
</div><div>2. Because the client sends its CID first, there&#39;s no way to=
 get the</div><div>current QUIC semantics of the server just dictates the C=
ID.=C2=A0 I propose</div><div>we fix that by defining a special sentinel CI=
D (all 1s, all 0s,</div><div>whatever) of whatever our maximum length is th=
at means &quot;just use your</div><div>own CID&quot;.</div><div><br></div><=
div>We can endlessly bikeshed on this structure.</div><div><br></div><div><=
br></div><div>Finally, we will need to update NEW_CONNECTION_ID to allow a =
variable</div><div>length CID. This would look like this:</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A01=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A02=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A03</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9=
 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=
-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Sequence (i)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0...</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-=
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 CID-Length=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><d=
iv>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Connection ID (=
*)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-=
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|<=
/div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Stateless Reset Token (128)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0+=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+=
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div=
><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>[0] However, in the tran=
sport parameters design, if the server&#39;s</div><div>handshake gets reord=
ered, the client might need to send some ACKs with</div><div>the initial CI=
D. However, we&#39;ve agreed that the client&#39;s IP address</div><div>has=
 to be stable, so this isn&#39;t a problem. Alternately, you could</div><di=
v>change C-&gt;S CIDs in the short header if that was easier.</div><div><br=
></div><div>[1] An alternative would be to have a sparse range (e.g., you c=
an</div><div>express 0-7 and then 8-22 by 2s, assuming I have counted corre=
ctly)</div><div>and then we could pack both lengths into a single byte. As =
I said,</div><div>lots of opportunities for bikeshedding here.</div><div><b=
r></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div></div></div><br></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a1144309e02ad9205655911b0--


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Subject: Re: Asymmetric CIDs
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On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 11:08 AM, Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> That sounds workable to me. Thanks for clarifying. However, if this is the
> case then how is Stateless Reset broken?
>

The server knows it's CID (from the offending packet) but doesn't know the
client's CID (because it's statelsss), so when it sends SR, there's a
chance it gets misrouted at the client.

-Ekr


>
> If a load balancer is encoding different lengths in the CID, that
> introduces additional overhead to a LB/Server communication protocol as
> I've drafted. It's solvable but annoying.
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 10:38 AM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 9:52 AM, Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks for writing this up, ekr. This incorporates many of the
>>> suggestions I made in objection to this project (perhaps coincidentally)
>>> and I like it a lot.
>>>
>>> Advantages of this:
>>> - In the common case where most of the data is server->client, clients
>>> can get away with shorter Conn IDs to reduce overhead.
>>> - Omit-conn-id just becomes a case where length = 0. Does this sidestep
>>> some of Google's transition issues?
>>> - If a client sends NEW_CONNECTION_ID, that indicates an intention to
>>> migrate, and is a good cue for the server to send the same. We should add a
>>> SHOULD to specify this behavior.
>>>
>>> I must be missing something, however, regarding implicit CIDs.
>>>
>>> If there's a NAT rebinding, how is the server supposed to extract the
>>> CID?
>>>
>>
>> The assumption is that the server either:
>>
>> (a) always uses the same CID length
>> (b) has a structured CID which starts with the length.
>>
>> But that we don't need to mandate which one in the protoocl
>>
>>
>>> Furthermore, this obviates the entire concept of using Connection ID for
>>> routing; it's not obviously a savings to store CID length in a table vs.
>>> just storing the destination server.
>>>
>>
>> I don't think you hae to do this, but maybe I am confused. See above and
>> tell me if you think I'm wrong
>>
>> -Ekr
>>
>>
>>> Lastly, if we encode the length somewhere that seems to solve the
>>> Stateless Reset issue.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 9:25 AM, Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks for the excellent summary EKR.  I like this design and think the
>>>> breakage of stateless reset in certain cases is acceptable, since it only
>>>> applies if both sides must have their preferred connection ID present in
>>>> order to route correctly, which is a use case that's impossible in the
>>>> status quo.  I have not come up with any other downsides.
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 12:01 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi folks,
>>>>>
>>>>> After a bunch of discussion, the CID task force came down to rough
>>>>> consensus that asymmetric conn IDs were probably the right
>>>>> direction (CID task force members, please feel free to voice dissent
>>>>> here). Here's a complete writeup of what I think would be needed
>>>>> for asymmetric connection IDs. It's not a PR, because I think
>>>>> something self-contained is cleaner.
>>>>>
>>>>> Note that if we adopt this direction, we would be sacrificing
>>>>> public reset under some conditions (see previous emails to the
>>>>> list) and we would need to decide if it was worth keeping at all.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> OVERVIEW
>>>>> The basic idea is that each side gets to dictate the connection IDs
>>>>> that are used to send to it. During the handshake, you establish those
>>>>> CIDs and then each side can issue new CIDs during the connection.  The
>>>>> main advantage of this is that it allows for symmetric topologies in
>>>>> which
>>>>> the client is also behind some kind of stateless LB/router rather than
>>>>> just the server. See Issue #1091 for more info on this.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The overall handshake looks something like this:
>>>>>
>>>>> Client                                      Server
>>>>>
>>>>> Initial [CID=XXX] {recv-CID=YYY} ---------------->
>>>>> <-------------- Cleartext [CID=YYY] {recv-CID=ZZZ}
>>>>> Cleartext [CID=ZZZ], {recv-CID=YYY} ------------->
>>>>> <-------------------------- Short header [CID=YYY]
>>>>> Short header [CID=ZZZ] -------------------------->
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The client's initial CID (XXX) is special, and either consists of
>>>>>
>>>>>     (a) a randomly chosen dummy CID. Proposal: require this to be
>>>>>         8 bytes or at least a minimum. This should be the same
>>>>>         for all Initial packets in a connection (unless a stateless
>>>>>         reject is received, as below).
>>>>>     (b) a CID which it received from the server in a stateless reject
>>>>>
>>>>> All the server's packets are sent with the client's receive CID (YYY)
>>>>> and all subsequent client packets are sent with the server's receive
>>>>> CID (ZZZ). The general rule is that you should send with the
>>>>> connection ID that you most recently received (where recently
>>>>> is defined as highest PN).
>>>>>
>>>>> Note: I believe it's safe to just use the sending CID as the mixin
>>>>> for the KDF, but I haven't thought this entirely through yet.
>>>>>
>>>>> Finally, you can send NEW_CONNECTION_ID in either direction to provide
>>>>> a new connection ID for the other side to use. The general assumption
>>>>> is that you can do this at any time, just as with current QUIC, and
>>>>> that any time you send to a new remote 3-tuple you should change CIDs
>>>>> if you can. Note that this means that endpoints should try to make
>>>>> sure that the other side has spare CIDs in case they need to migrate.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> WIRE ENCODING
>>>>> As we discussed in the meeting the short header should just have
>>>>> an implicit length CID. This gives us the following short header:
>>>>>
>>>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>>>    |0|C|K| Type (5)|
>>>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>>>    |                                                               |
>>>>>    +                     [Connection ID (*)]                       +
>>>>> <- change from 64
>>>>>    |                                                               |
>>>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>>>    |                      Packet Number (8/16/32)                ...
>>>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>>>    |                     Protected Payload (*)                   ...
>>>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>>>
>>>>> Note that we may also be able to dispense with the C bit, if each
>>>>> side just gets to say "send me this CID exactly", why do we want
>>>>> to say "here is my CID but you can omit it".
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> We have several options about the long header. The first question
>>>>> is where recv-CIDs go. In previous versions I suggested putting
>>>>> them in transport parameters, or elsewhere in the TLS handshake,
>>>>> and that might still be viable, though it has some drawbacks [0],
>>>>> so the other alternative is to put both CIDs in in the long header.
>>>>> This would look something like:
>>>>>
>>>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>>>    |1|   Type (7)  |
>>>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>>>    |  DCID-Length  |                                               |
>>>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+   Dst Connection ID (*)                       +
>>>>>    |                                                               |
>>>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>>>    |  SCID-Length  |                                               |
>>>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+   Src Connection ID (*)                       +
>>>>>    |                                                               |
>>>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>>>    |                         Version (32)                          |
>>>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>>>    |                       Packet Number (32)                      |
>>>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>>>    |                          Payload (*)                        ...
>>>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>>>
>>>>> The semantics here are that the first value is the CID you want to
>>>>> send to and the second one is the value you want used to send to you
>>>>> (I've inverted these to keep the order the same as short header).
>>>>>
>>>>> Two notes about this encoding:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. I think we agreed that we didn't want arbitrary length CIDs up to
>>>>> 255 bytes, and yet we have room in this length byte. I propose we
>>>>> limit it to 31 bytes and then grease the remaining 3 bits [1].
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. Because the client sends its CID first, there's no way to get the
>>>>> current QUIC semantics of the server just dictates the CID.  I propose
>>>>> we fix that by defining a special sentinel CID (all 1s, all 0s,
>>>>> whatever) of whatever our maximum length is that means "just use your
>>>>> own CID".
>>>>>
>>>>> We can endlessly bikeshed on this structure.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Finally, we will need to update NEW_CONNECTION_ID to allow a variable
>>>>> length CID. This would look like this:
>>>>>
>>>>>     0                   1                   2                   3
>>>>>     0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
>>>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>>>    |                          Sequence (i)                       ...
>>>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>>>    |  CID-Length   |                                               |
>>>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+       Connection ID (*)                       +
>>>>>    |                                                               |
>>>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>>>    |                                                               |
>>>>>    +                                                               +
>>>>>    |                                                               |
>>>>>    +                   Stateless Reset Token (128)                 +
>>>>>    |                                                               |
>>>>>    +                                                               +
>>>>>    |                                                               |
>>>>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> [0] However, in the transport parameters design, if the server's
>>>>> handshake gets reordered, the client might need to send some ACKs with
>>>>> the initial CID. However, we've agreed that the client's IP address
>>>>> has to be stable, so this isn't a problem. Alternately, you could
>>>>> change C->S CIDs in the short header if that was easier.
>>>>>
>>>>> [1] An alternative would be to have a sparse range (e.g., you can
>>>>> express 0-7 and then 8-22 by 2s, assuming I have counted correctly)
>>>>> and then we could pack both lengths into a single byte. As I said,
>>>>> lots of opportunities for bikeshedding here.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>

--001a114bb0ac40fbf80565596732
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 11:08 AM, Martin Duke <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:martin.h.duke@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">martin.h.duke@gma=
il.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"=
ltr"><br>That sounds workable to me. Thanks for clarifying. However, if thi=
s is the case then how is Stateless Reset broken?</div></blockquote><div><b=
r></div><div>The server knows it&#39;s CID (from the offending packet) but =
doesn&#39;t know the client&#39;s CID (because it&#39;s statelsss), so when=
 it sends SR, there&#39;s a chance it gets misrouted at the client.</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>-Ekr</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"=
><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>If a load balancer is encoding differ=
ent lengths in the CID, that introduces additional overhead to a LB/Server =
communication protocol as I&#39;ve drafted. It&#39;s solvable but annoying.=
<br></div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><div=
 class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 =
at 10:38 AM, Eric Rescorla <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm=
.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;=
padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><span>On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 9:52 AM, Martin Duke <s=
pan dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.h.duke@gmail.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">martin.h.duke@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding=
-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Thanks for writing this up, ekr. This incorpora=
tes many of the suggestions I made in objection to this project (perhaps co=
incidentally) and I like it a lot.<div><br></div><div>Advantages of this:</=
div><div>- In the common case where most of the data is server-&gt;client, =
clients can get away with shorter Conn IDs to reduce overhead.</div><div>- =
Omit-conn-id just becomes a case where length =3D 0. Does this sidestep som=
e of Google&#39;s transition issues?</div><div>- If a client sends NEW_CONN=
ECTION_ID, that indicates an intention to migrate, and is a good cue for th=
e server to send the same. We should add a SHOULD to specify this behavior.=
</div><div><br></div><div>I must be missing something, however, regarding i=
mplicit CIDs.</div><div><br></div><div>If there&#39;s a NAT rebinding, how =
is the server supposed to extract the CID? </div></div></blockquote><div><b=
r></div></span><div>The assumption is that the server either:</div><div><br=
></div><div>(a) always uses the same CID length</div><div>(b) has a structu=
red CID which starts with the length.</div><div><br></div><div>But that we =
don&#39;t need to mandate which one in the protoocl</div><span><div>=C2=A0<=
/div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-le=
ft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Furthermore, this=
 obviates the entire concept of using Connection ID for routing; it&#39;s n=
ot obviously a savings to store CID length in a table vs. just storing the =
destination server.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>I do=
n&#39;t think you hae to do this, but maybe I am confused. See above and te=
ll me if you think I&#39;m wrong</div><div><br></div><div>-Ekr</div><div><d=
iv class=3D"m_170502315430548980h5"><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-lef=
t:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Lastly, if we encode the length=
 somewhere that seems to solve the Stateless Reset issue.</div><div><br></d=
iv></div><div class=3D"m_170502315430548980m_-8182407008406645295HOEnZb"><d=
iv class=3D"m_170502315430548980m_-8182407008406645295h5"><div class=3D"gma=
il_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 9:25 AM, I=
an Swett <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ianswett@google.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">ianswett@google.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Thanks for the excellent summary EKR.=C2=A0 =
I like this design and think the breakage of stateless reset in certain cas=
es is acceptable, since it only applies if both sides must have their prefe=
rred connection ID present in order to route correctly, which is a use case=
 that&#39;s impossible in the status quo.=C2=A0 I have not come up with any=
 other downsides.</div><div class=3D"m_170502315430548980m_-818240700840664=
5295m_-4542502491769540613HOEnZb"><div class=3D"m_170502315430548980m_-8182=
407008406645295m_-4542502491769540613h5"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><di=
v class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 12:01 PM, Eric Rescorla <sp=
an dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rt=
fm.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"=
ltr"><div>Hi folks,</div><div><br></div><div>After a bunch of discussion, t=
he CID task force came down to rough</div><div>consensus that asymmetric co=
nn IDs were probably the right</div><div>direction (CID task force members,=
 please feel free to voice dissent</div><div>here). Here&#39;s a complete w=
riteup of what I think would be needed</div><div>for asymmetric connection =
IDs. It&#39;s not a PR, because I think</div><div>something self-contained =
is cleaner.</div><div><br></div><div>Note that if we adopt this direction, =
we would be sacrificing</div><div>public reset under some conditions (see p=
revious emails to the</div><div>list) and we would need to decide if it was=
 worth keeping at all.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>OVERVIEW</di=
v><div>The basic idea is that each side gets to dictate the connection IDs<=
/div><div>that are used to send to it. During the handshake, you establish =
those</div><div>CIDs and then each side can issue new CIDs during the conne=
ction.=C2=A0 The</div><div>main advantage of this is that it allows for sym=
metric topologies in which</div><div>the client is also behind some kind of=
 stateless LB/router rather than</div><div>just the server. See Issue #1091=
 for more info on this.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>The overall=
 handshake looks something like this:</div><div><br></div><div>Client=C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Server</div><div><br><=
/div><div>Initial [CID=3DXXX] {recv-CID=3DYYY} ----------------&gt;</div><d=
iv>&lt;-------------- Cleartext [CID=3DYYY] {recv-CID=3DZZZ}</div><div>Clea=
rtext [CID=3DZZZ], {recv-CID=3DYYY} -------------&gt;</div><div>&lt;-------=
------------------- Short header [CID=3DYYY]</div><div>Short header [CID=3D=
ZZZ] --------------------------&gt;</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div=
>The client&#39;s initial CID (XXX) is special, and either consists of</div=
><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (a) a randomly chosen dummy CID. Proposa=
l: require this to be</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 8 bytes or at l=
east a minimum. This should be the same</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 for all Initial packets in a connection (unless a stateless</div><div>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 reject is received, as below).</div><div>=C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 (b) a CID which it received from the server in a stateless reject</=
div><div><br></div><div>All the server&#39;s packets are sent with the clie=
nt&#39;s receive CID (YYY)</div><div>and all subsequent client packets are =
sent with the server&#39;s receive</div><div>CID (ZZZ). The general rule is=
 that you should send with the</div><div>connection ID that you most recent=
ly received (where recently</div><div>is defined as highest PN).</div><div>=
<br></div><div>Note: I believe it&#39;s safe to just use the sending CID as=
 the mixin</div><div>for the KDF, but I haven&#39;t thought this entirely t=
hrough yet.</div><div><br></div><div>Finally, you can send NEW_CONNECTION_I=
D in either direction to provide</div><div>a new connection ID for the othe=
r side to use. The general assumption</div><div>is that you can do this at =
any time, just as with current QUIC, and</div><div>that any time you send t=
o a new remote 3-tuple you should change CIDs</div><div>if you can. Note th=
at this means that endpoints should try to make</div><div>sure that the oth=
er side has spare CIDs in case they need to migrate.</div><div><br></div><d=
iv><br></div><div>WIRE ENCODING</div><div>As we discussed in the meeting th=
e short header should just have</div><div>an implicit length CID. This give=
s us the following short header:</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-=
+-+-+-+-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|0|C|K| Type (5)|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-=
+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[Connection ID (=
*)]=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0+=C2=A0 &lt;- change from 64</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div=
><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=
-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Packet Number (8/16/32)=C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ...</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-=
+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Protected Payload (*)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0...</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+=
</div><div><br></div><div>Note that we may also be able to dispense with th=
e C bit, if each</div><div>side just gets to say &quot;send me this CID exa=
ctly&quot;, why do we want</div><div>to say &quot;here is my CID but you ca=
n omit it&quot;.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>We have several op=
tions about the long header. The first question</div><div>is where recv-CID=
s go. In previous versions I suggested putting</div><div>them in transport =
parameters, or elsewhere in the TLS handshake,</div><div>and that might sti=
ll be viable, though it has some drawbacks [0],</div><div>so the other alte=
rnative is to put both CIDs in in the long header.</div><div>This would loo=
k something like:</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+</=
div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|1|=C2=A0 =C2=A0Type (7)=C2=A0 |</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-=
+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 DCID-Length=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|<=
/div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=C2=A0 =C2=A0Dst Connection ID (*)=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-=
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 SCID-Length=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=C2=A0 =C2=A0Src Connection ID (*)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+</div=
><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<=
wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Version (32)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-=
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><d=
iv>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Packet Number (32)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+=
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+<=
/div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Payload (*)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ...</div><di=
v>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=
-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div><br></div><div>The semantics here are that the fi=
rst value is the CID you want to</div><div>send to and the second one is th=
e value you want used to send to you</div><div>(I&#39;ve inverted these to =
keep the order the same as short header).</div><div><br></div><div>Two note=
s about this encoding:</div><div><br></div><div>1. I think we agreed that w=
e didn&#39;t want arbitrary length CIDs up to</div><div>255 bytes, and yet =
we have room in this length byte. I propose we</div><div>limit it to 31 byt=
es and then grease the remaining 3 bits [1].</div><div><br></div><div>2. Be=
cause the client sends its CID first, there&#39;s no way to get the</div><d=
iv>current QUIC semantics of the server just dictates the CID.=C2=A0 I prop=
ose</div><div>we fix that by defining a special sentinel CID (all 1s, all 0=
s,</div><div>whatever) of whatever our maximum length is that means &quot;j=
ust use your</div><div>own CID&quot;.</div><div><br></div><div>We can endle=
ssly bikeshed on this structure.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Fi=
nally, we will need to update NEW_CONNECTION_ID to allow a variable</div><d=
iv>length CID. This would look like this:</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A01=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A02=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A03</div=
><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7=
 8 9 0 1</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-=
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 S=
equence (i)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0...</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-=
+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=
=A0 CID-Length=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-=
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Connection ID (*)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+</div=
><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<=
wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|<=
/div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0+=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0Stateless Reset Token (128)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0+<=
/div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0|=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0|</div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=
-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+<wbr>-+-+-+</div><div><br></div><d=
iv><br></div><div><br></div><div>[0] However, in the transport parameters d=
esign, if the server&#39;s</div><div>handshake gets reordered, the client m=
ight need to send some ACKs with</div><div>the initial CID. However, we&#39=
;ve agreed that the client&#39;s IP address</div><div>has to be stable, so =
this isn&#39;t a problem. Alternately, you could</div><div>change C-&gt;S C=
IDs in the short header if that was easier.</div><div><br></div><div>[1] An=
 alternative would be to have a sparse range (e.g., you can</div><div>expre=
ss 0-7 and then 8-22 by 2s, assuming I have counted correctly)</div><div>an=
d then we could pack both lengths into a single byte. As I said,</div><div>=
lots of opportunities for bikeshedding here.</div><div><br></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div></div></div><br></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--001a114bb0ac40fbf80565596732--


From nobody Fri Feb 16 14:10:38 2018
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To: Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>
Cc: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
References: <CABcZeBMVabN9LQ42BxpSwK71hzu_TbzwqhHTJV1uJBKr5g-N3A@mail.gmail.com> <CAKcm_gOvf0N7sq2so38sQaD+2jHGnDpsSQHEwU8HPgSpMJRfzA@mail.gmail.com> <CAM4esxQW1-dVfJSi4zoURNV-7u0EP6h-Xdyx5Wbo0QMdrkLk=w@mail.gmail.com> <AA0705E2-7A79-47DD-846A-C0B74A8A4B24@huitema.net> <D7E469CD-B9D8-41ED-8F5C-9933DCBA90E6@fb.com>
From: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
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Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 14:10:04 -0800
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Subject: Re: Asymmetric CIDs
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To be explicit, I am concerned by the following scenario:

1) Client sends a PATH CHALLENGE to server from a new client address
with never-seen-before connection ID, obtained previously in NEW
CONNECTION ID frame from server

2) Server respond by sending reply to new address with
previously-negotiated-and-used CID of client.

3) Instant linkage.

The key is of course that the server picks a different CID to respond to
the migration, normally in a NEW CONNECTION ID frame.


On 2/16/2018 10:25 AM, Roberto Peon wrote:
>
> ++ what Christian says.
> The fact that it now takes two implementations to prevent linkability
> (either side messes it up, and that half-path is exposed, likely
> rendering it all exposed) is a bit sad.
>
> -=3DR
>
> =C2=A0
>
> =C2=A0
>
> *From: *QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Christian Huitema
> <huitema@huitema.net>
> *Date: *Friday, February 16, 2018 at 10:16 AM
> *To: *Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>
> *Cc: *Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>,
> Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
> *Subject: *Re: Asymmetric CIDs
>
> =C2=A0
>
> I like the concept, but I would like to understand how we avoid
> linkability on migration.
>
> -- Christian Huitema=C2=A0
>


--------------12AF80F802C4B4267D03B2AD
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
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<html>
  <head>
    <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
  </head>
  <body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
    <p>To be explicit, I am concerned by the following scenario:</p>
    <p>1) Client sends a PATH CHALLENGE to server from a new client
      address with never-seen-before connection ID, obtained previously
      in NEW CONNECTION ID frame from server<br>
    </p>
    <p>2) Server respond by sending reply to new address with
      previously-negotiated-and-used CID of client.</p>
    <p>3) Instant linkage.</p>
    <p>The key is of course that the server picks a different CID to
      respond to the migration, normally in a NEW CONNECTION ID frame. </p>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/16/2018 10:25 AM, Roberto Peon
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:D7E469CD-B9D8-41ED-8F5C-9933DCBA90E6@fb.com">
      <p class="MsoNormal">++ what Christian says.<br>
        The fact that it now takes two implementations to prevent
        linkability (either side messes it up, and that half-path is
        exposed, likely rendering it all exposed) is a bit sad.<o:p></o:p></p>
      <p class="MsoNormal">-=R<o:p></o:p></p>
      <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
      <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
      <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
        1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
        <p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
              style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span></b><span
            style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">QUIC
            <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org">&lt;quic-bounces@ietf.org&gt;</a> on behalf of Christian Huitema
            <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:huitema@huitema.net">&lt;huitema@huitema.net&gt;</a><br>
            <b>Date: </b>Friday, February 16, 2018 at 10:16 AM<br>
            <b>To: </b>Martin Duke <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:martin.h.duke@gmail.com">&lt;martin.h.duke@gmail.com&gt;</a><br>
            <b>Cc: </b>Ian Swett <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ianswett@google.com">&lt;ianswett@google.com&gt;</a>, IETF QUIC
            WG <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:quic@ietf.org">&lt;quic@ietf.org&gt;</a>, Eric Rescorla <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ekr@rtfm.com">&lt;ekr@rtfm.com&gt;</a><br>
            <b>Subject: </b>Re: Asymmetric CIDs<o:p></o:p></span></p>
      </div>
      <div>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
      </div>
      <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">I like the
        concept, but I would like to understand how we avoid linkability
        on migration.<o:p></o:p></p>
      <div id="AppleMailSignature">
        <p class="MsoNormal">-- Christian Huitema </p>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------12AF80F802C4B4267D03B2AD--


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From: Nick Banks <nibanks@microsoft.com>
To: huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>
CC: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Subject: RE: Asymmetric CIDs
Thread-Topic: Asymmetric CIDs
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From: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2018 17:45:02 -0500
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Subject: Re: Asymmetric CIDs
To: Nick Banks <nibanks@microsoft.com>
Cc: huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>,  Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
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--001a113fb9268cf19905655c19f1
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

I agree that could be a concern, but I think it's no more difficult to
solve than the status quo.  It just means both sides need to have more
connection IDs, not just one side.

Nick's solution is a good suggestion, but one can also imagine cases when
other connection IDs have previously been made available.

In practice, for most of the cases we're discussing, I'm expecting the
connection ID from server to client will be 0 bytes in length, making this
a non-issue.

--001a113fb9268cf19905655c19f1
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>I agree that could be a concern, but I think it&#39;s=
 no more difficult to solve than the status quo.=C2=A0 It just means both s=
ides need to have more connection IDs, not just one side.</div><div><br></d=
iv>Nick&#39;s solution is a good suggestion, but one can also imagine cases=
 when other connection IDs have previously been made available.<div><br></d=
iv><div>In practice, for most of the cases we&#39;re discussing, I&#39;m ex=
pecting the connection ID from server to client will be 0 bytes in length, =
making this a non-issue.</div></div>

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From: Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>
To: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>, Nick Banks <nibanks@microsoft.com>
CC: huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Subject: Re: Asymmetric CIDs
Thread-Topic: Asymmetric CIDs
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That would make multipath hard/interesting.

I expect non-zero length (-> client) CIDs when multipath is not theoretical=
.
-=3DR

Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S7, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>
Date: 2/16/18 2:45 PM (GMT-08:00)
To: Nick Banks <nibanks@microsoft.com>
Cc: huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, Martin Duke=
 <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Eric Rescorla <ek=
r@rtfm.com>
Subject: Re: Asymmetric CIDs

I agree that could be a concern, but I think it's no more difficult to solv=
e than the status quo.  It just means both sides need to have more connecti=
on IDs, not just one side.

Nick's solution is a good suggestion, but one can also imagine cases when o=
ther connection IDs have previously been made available.

In practice, for most of the cases we're discussing, I'm expecting the conn=
ection ID from server to client will be 0 bytes in length, making this a no=
n-issue.

--_000_BY2PR15MB077577E4358F9922047685A8CDCB0BY2PR15MB0775namp_
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<div>That would make multipath hard/interesting.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I expect non-zero length (-&gt; client) CIDs when multipath is not the=
oretical.</div>
<div>-=3DR</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div id=3D"composer_signature">
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"font-size:85%; color:#575757">Sent via the Samsu=
ng Galaxy S7, an AT&amp;T 4G LTE smartphone</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-------- Original message --------</div>
<div>From: Ian Swett &lt;ianswett@google.com&gt; </div>
<div>Date: 2/16/18 2:45 PM (GMT-08:00) </div>
<div>To: Nick Banks &lt;nibanks@microsoft.com&gt; </div>
<div>Cc: huitema &lt;huitema@huitema.net&gt;, Roberto Peon &lt;fenix@fb.com=
&gt;, Martin Duke &lt;martin.h.duke@gmail.com&gt;, IETF QUIC WG &lt;quic@ie=
tf.org&gt;, Eric Rescorla &lt;ekr@rtfm.com&gt;
</div>
<div>Subject: Re: Asymmetric CIDs </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>I agree that could be a concern, but I think it's no more difficult to=
 solve than the status quo.&nbsp; It just means both sides need to have mor=
e connection IDs, not just one side.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
Nick's solution is a good suggestion, but one can also imagine cases when o=
ther connection IDs have previously been made available.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>In practice, for most of the cases we're discussing, I'm expecting the=
 connection ID from server to client will be 0 bytes in length, making this=
 a non-issue.</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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Subject: Re: Asymmetric CIDs
To: Nick Banks <nibanks@microsoft.com>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>
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This looks good to me.

Path migration might involve CID validation so a connection shuts down if a
single endpoint messes up linkage.

The stateless reset has been discussed - problem with routing to peer (I
don=E2=80=99t recall if reset can go both ways, but I think is is currently=
 only
server to client ATM) with ACID it would be more relevant to also discuss
opposite reset because the use case would/could be p2p servers.

I think perhaps getting rid of reset would be good. As an alternative a
PATH_CHALLENGE or a PING could be used if one endpoint thinks the other end
is a tad silent. The sub protocol for updating router CID could also be
extended to filter out noisy clients by cancelling a CID that is not in use=
.

The stateless retry concern has not been discussed in this thread, I
suppose. It is mentioned in the ACID issue:

https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1089


Kind Regards,
Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen


On 16 February 2018 at 23.56.35, Roberto Peon (fenix@fb.com) wrote:

That would make multipath hard/interesting.

I expect non-zero length (-> client) CIDs when multipath is not theoretical=
.
-=3DR

Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S7, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone


-------- Original message --------
From: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>
Date: 2/16/18 2:45 PM (GMT-08:00)
To: Nick Banks <nibanks@microsoft.com>
Cc: huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, Martin Duke
<martin.h.duke@gmail.com>, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Eric Rescorla <
ekr@rtfm.com>
Subject: Re: Asymmetric CIDs

I agree that could be a concern, but I think it's no more difficult to
solve than the status quo.  It just means both sides need to have more
connection IDs, not just one side.

Nick's solution is a good suggestion, but one can also imagine cases when
other connection IDs have previously been made available.

In practice, for most of the cases we're discussing, I'm expecting the
connection ID from server to client will be 0 bytes in length, making this
a non-issue.

--001a114f7e84dc6e6e05655d7555
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">This looks good to m=
e.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;f=
ont-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div>=
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">Path migration mig=
ht involve CID validation so a connection shuts down if a single endpoint m=
esses up linkage.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:He=
lvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:a=
uto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,=
Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">The=
 stateless reset has been discussed - problem with routing to peer (I don=
=E2=80=99t recall if reset can go both ways, but I think is is currently on=
ly server to client ATM) with ACID it would be more relevant to also discus=
s opposite reset because the use case would/could be p2p servers.</div><div=
 id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13p=
x;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"b=
loop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:=
rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">I think perhaps getting rid of=
 reset would be good. As an alternative a PATH_CHALLENGE or a PING could be=
 used if one endpoint thinks the other end is a tad silent. The sub protoco=
l for updating router CID could also be extended to filter out noisy client=
s by cancelling a CID that is not in use.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont"=
 style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);=
margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin=
:0px;line-height:auto">The stateless retry concern has not been discussed i=
n this thread, I suppose. It is mentioned in the ACID issue:=C2=A0</div><di=
v id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13=
px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"=
bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color=
:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><a href=3D"https://github.com=
/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1089">https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issu=
es/1089</a></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetic=
a,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><=
br></div> <br> <div id=3D"bloop_sign_1518826399268986112" class=3D"bloop_si=
gn"><div style=3D"font-family:helvetica,arial;font-size:13px">Kind Regards,=
</div><div style=3D"font-family:helvetica,arial;font-size:13px">Mikkel Fahn=
=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen<br><br></div></div> <br><p class=3D"airmail_on">On 1=
6 February 2018 at 23.56.35, Roberto Peon (<a href=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.com">=
fenix@fb.com</a>) wrote:</p> <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq"><=
span><div><div></div><div>




<title></title>


<div>That would make multipath hard/interesting.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>I expect non-zero length (-&gt; client) CIDs when multipath is
not theoretical.</div>
<div>-=3DR</div>
<div><br></div>
<div id=3D"composer_signature">
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"font-size:85%;color:#575757">Sent via the
Samsung Galaxy S7, an AT&amp;T 4G LTE smartphone</div>
</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>-------- Original message --------</div>
<div>From: Ian Swett &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ianswett@google.com">ianswett@go=
ogle.com</a>&gt;</div>
<div>Date: 2/16/18 2:45 PM (GMT-08:00)</div>
<div>To: Nick Banks &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nibanks@microsoft.com">nibanks@mi=
crosoft.com</a>&gt;</div>
<div>Cc: huitema &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:huitema@huitema.net">huitema@huitema=
.net</a>&gt;, Roberto Peon
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.com">fenix@fb.com</a>&gt;, Martin Duke &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:martin.h.duke@gmail.com">martin.h.duke@gmail.com</a>&gt;,
IETF QUIC WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Er=
ic Rescorla
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;</div>
<div>Subject: Re: Asymmetric CIDs</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>I agree that could be a concern, but I think it&#39;s no more
difficult to solve than the status quo.=C2=A0 It just means both
sides need to have more connection IDs, not just one side.</div>
<div><br></div>
Nick&#39;s solution is a good suggestion, but one can also imagine
cases when other connection IDs have previously been made
available.
<div><br></div>
<div>In practice, for most of the cases we&#39;re discussing, I&#39;m
expecting the connection ID from server to client will be 0 bytes
in length, making this a non-issue.</div>
</div>
</div>


</div></div></span></blockquote></body></html>

--001a114f7e84dc6e6e05655d7555--


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From: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
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Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2018 00:12:02 -0800
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On 2/16/2018 4:22 PM, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen wrote:

> This looks good to me.
>
> Path migration might involve CID validation so a connection shuts down
> if a single endpoint messes up linkage.

"Implement migration correctly, or the connection will break on
migration." That may work if the QUIC stack wants to actually make
migration work. And I suppose that a stack that does not care about
migration would simply not provide "NEW CONNECTION ID" in the first
place. If one peer sends data with a CID, the responder needs to also
select a new asymmetric CID in the replies, and must not send a reply if
no such new asymmetric CID is available -- with suitable exception for
0-length CID. This requires that a new asymmetric CID is available, and
as Nick suggested this can be made foolproof by sending a NEW CID frame
in the migration packets.

My point is mostly that iwhen we write the asymmetric CID PR, we must
actually specify the migration behavior.

-- Christian Huitema

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<html>
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    <p>On 2/16/2018 4:22 PM, Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen wrote:<br>
    </p>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAN1APdeOm+Bguwx=9hZxgnArNi+iC=QufKkQ=4bScNEU+dyK4g@mail.gmail.com">
      <div id="bloop_customfont"
style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">This
        looks good to me.</div>
      <div id="bloop_customfont"
style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br>
      </div>
      <div id="bloop_customfont"
style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">Path
        migration might involve CID validation so a connection shuts
        down if a single endpoint messes up linkage.</div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    "Implement migration correctly, or the connection will break on
    migration." That may work if the QUIC stack wants to actually make
    migration work. And I suppose that a stack that does not care about
    migration would simply not provide "NEW CONNECTION ID" in the first
    place. If one peer sends data with a CID, the responder needs to
    also select a new asymmetric CID in the replies, and must not send a
    reply if no such new asymmetric CID is available -- with suitable
    exception for 0-length CID. This requires that a new asymmetric CID
    is available, and as Nick suggested this can be made foolproof by
    sending a NEW CID frame in the migration packets.<br>
    <br>
    My point is mostly that iwhen we write the asymmetric CID PR, we
    must actually specify the migration behavior. <br>
    <br>
    -- Christian Huitema<br>
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</html>

--------------C068D5E77F8C156120A97080--


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Events without label "editorial"

Issues
------
* quicwg/base-drafts (+2/-2/=F0=9F=92=AC2)
  2 issues created:
  - text on retry and connection id (by mcmanus)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1118 =

  - Server responses to multiple Initial packets (by martinthomson)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1115 [-transport] [design] =


  1 issues received 2 new comments:
  - #1115 Server responses to multiple Initial packets (2 by huitema, mikke=
lfj)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1115 [-transport] [design] =


  2 issues closed:
  - Cancellation of requests with (partial) responses https://github.com/qu=
icwg/base-drafts/issues/756 [-http] [design] [has-proposal] =

  - When to send Version Negotiation https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/=
issues/1038 [-transport] [design] =




Pull requests
-------------
* quicwg/base-drafts (+10/-7/=F0=9F=92=AC10)
  10 pull requests submitted:
  - Added reference to stateless reset (by martinduke)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1116 =

  - Simplify QCRAM abstract (by LPardue)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1114 =

  - Add QCRAM links to README (by LPardue)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1113 =

  - qcram: section reference format (by reschke)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1112 =

  - qcram: consistent formatting of range (by reschke)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1111 =

  - qcram: make boilerplate consistent (by reschke)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1110 =

  - Invariants (by martinthomson)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1109 =

  - Adopted QCRAM draft (by afrind)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1108 =

  - Frame types that are Protocol Violations (by martinduke)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1107 =

  - Define InRecovery() (by ianswett)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1106 =


  5 pull requests received 10 new comments:
  - #1108 Adopted QCRAM draft (5 by larseggert, martinthomson, janaiyengar,=
 krasic, MikeBishop)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1108 =

  - #1114 Simplify QCRAM abstract (2 by martinthomson, LPardue)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1114 =

  - #1039 Rewrite text about Version Negotiation (1 by martinthomson)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1039 =

  - #1012 A more complete connection migration (1 by janaiyengar)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1012 =

  - #1053 Rework packetization section (1 by martinthomson)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1053 [-transport] =


  7 pull requests merged:
  - Extract request cancellation from GOAWAY
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1100 [-http] [merge-imminent=
] =

  - Rewrite text about Version Negotiation
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1039 =

  - Add QCRAM links to README
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1113 =

  - Adopted QCRAM draft
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1108 =

  - Rework packetization section
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1053 [-transport] [merge-imm=
inent] =

  - Define InRecovery()
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1106 =

  - Frame types that are Protocol Violations
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1107 =



Repositories tracked by this digest:
-----------------------------------
* https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts

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<h1>Sunday February 18, 2018</h1>

<p>Events without label "editorial"</p>

<h2>Issues</h2>

<h3>quicwg/base-drafts (+2/-2/=F0=9F=92=AC2)</h3>
  <p class=3D"new">2 issues created:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#1118 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1118">t=
ext on retry and connection id</a> (by mcmanus) </li>
  =

  <li>#1115 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1115">S=
erver responses to multiple Initial packets</a> (by martinthomson) <span cl=
ass=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-transpor=
t</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color: #=
ffffff">design</span> </li>
  </ul>

  <p>1 issues received 2 new comments:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#1115 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1115">S=
erver responses to multiple Initial packets</a> (2 by huitema, mikkelfj) <s=
pan class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-tr=
ansport</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db; co=
lor: #ffffff">design</span> </li>
  </ul>

  <p>2 issues closed:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#756 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/756">Can=
cellation of requests with (partial) responses</a> <span class=3D"label" st=
yle=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-http</span> <span class=
=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color: #ffffff">design</span=
> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #c5def5; color: #000000"=
>has-proposal</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#1038 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1038">W=
hen to send Version Negotiation</a> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"backgrou=
nd-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-transport</span> <span class=3D"label" =
style=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color: #ffffff">design</span> </li>
  </ul>



<h2>Pull requests</h2>
<h3>quicwg/base-drafts (+10/-7/=F0=9F=92=AC10)</h3>
  <p class=3D"new">10 pull requests submitted:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#1116 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1116">Add=
ed reference to stateless reset</a> (by martinduke) </li>
  =

  <li>#1114 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1114">Sim=
plify QCRAM abstract</a> (by LPardue) </li>
  =

  <li>#1113 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1113">Add=
 QCRAM links to README</a> (by LPardue) </li>
  =

  <li>#1112 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1112">qcr=
am: section reference format</a> (by reschke) </li>
  =

  <li>#1111 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1111">qcr=
am: consistent formatting of range</a> (by reschke) </li>
  =

  <li>#1110 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1110">qcr=
am: make boilerplate consistent</a> (by reschke) </li>
  =

  <li>#1109 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1109">Inv=
ariants</a> (by martinthomson) </li>
  =

  <li>#1108 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1108">Ado=
pted QCRAM draft</a> (by afrind) </li>
  =

  <li>#1107 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1107">Fra=
me types that are Protocol Violations</a> (by martinduke) </li>
  =

  <li>#1106 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1106">Def=
ine InRecovery()</a> (by ianswett) </li>
  </ul>

  <p>5 pull requests received 10 new comments:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#1108 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1108">Ado=
pted QCRAM draft</a> (5 by larseggert, martinthomson, janaiyengar, krasic, =
MikeBishop) </li>
  =

  <li>#1114 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1114">Sim=
plify QCRAM abstract</a> (2 by martinthomson, LPardue) </li>
  =

  <li>#1039 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1039">Rew=
rite text about Version Negotiation</a> (1 by martinthomson) </li>
  =

  <li>#1012 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1012">A m=
ore complete connection migration</a> (1 by janaiyengar) </li>
  =

  <li>#1053 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1053">Rew=
ork packetization section</a> (1 by martinthomson) <span class=3D"label" st=
yle=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-transport</span> </li>
  </ul>

  <p>7 pull requests merged:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#1100 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1100">Ext=
ract request cancellation from GOAWAY</a> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"ba=
ckground-color: #fbca04; color: #">-http</span> <span class=3D"label" style=
=3D"background-color: #c5def5; color: #">merge-imminent</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#1039 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1039">Rew=
rite text about Version Negotiation</a> </li>
  =

  <li>#1113 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1113">Add=
 QCRAM links to README</a> </li>
  =

  <li>#1108 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1108">Ado=
pted QCRAM draft</a> </li>
  =

  <li>#1053 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1053">Rew=
ork packetization section</a> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-col=
or: #fbca04; color: #">-transport</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"bac=
kground-color: #c5def5; color: #">merge-imminent</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#1106 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1106">Def=
ine InRecovery()</a> </li>
  =

  <li>#1107 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1107">Fra=
me types that are Protocol Violations</a> </li>
  </ul>


<h2>Repositories tracked by this digest:</h2>
<ul class=3D"repos">
  <li><a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts">https://github.com/=
quicwg/base-drafts</a></li>
  </ul>
</body>
</html>

--===============3030128415837924970==--


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Subject: Malicious Version Negotiation Handling (Was: Questions about Version Negotiation Concerning Possible Handshake Interruption)
From: Lingmo Zhu <zlm2006@gmail.com>
To: Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>, alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Mikkel_Fahn=c3=b8e_J=c3=b8rgensen?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
References: <1d386744-c46a-842a-b172-24e290e03668@gmail.com> <CABkgnnVRn+1sNZQFB8BZc4VyzN5usLmYJ3xLo+p2uTeW_0Ji_Q@mail.gmail.com> <CAN1APdfpJ0rYPPiOgfcdDRx3noh+YYvJatP0MYTqRRXMBwF6pA@mail.gmail.com> <3d558827-f2a7-877c-e00a-d6a22ef241c5@gmail.com> <CANatvzzZEuJ3TY=+0BMLqbBE5mScG_Jnrypg3xkciykOX78G8A@mail.gmail.com> <CAN1APdfov8Q3E+5NkT5pmMeU=eB=fsnDFe_=BK7TDE0TpXD3yA@mail.gmail.com> <142211e0-c7c9-642f-69ef-5f0d722b77cc@gmail.com> <529ac475-5291-2b2e-acf9-05efe720d584@huitema.net> <6937_1518251684_5A7EAEA4_6937_191_1_5A7EAEA5.2000605@orange.com> <CANatvzz_2BeRns5E-OO=CKKwK66LgMd=3vVCM84_+OAxj8CutQ@mail.gmail.com> <d3c8688a-3f01-30b1-a3de-1300a43c1d99@gmail.com>
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Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 23:48:21 +0800
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Hi all

After some discussion with Kazuho and thanks to his help, I want to
propose that for Version Negotiation handling, "a client MAY wait for a
handshake packet after receiving a Version Negotiation packet".

The attack utilizing fake Version Negotiation is too cheap and easy to
be performed (due to no encryption exists) and would be harmful (even
stopping the establishment of connections) so should be mitigated. The
attack that means to make the client abort QUIC connection could be
easily performed with small footprint but also could be mitigated by
simply ignoring those unacceptable Version Negotiation packets in my
rough experiment (if could be called so). Some possible approaches might
be considered:

* A timer could be set after Initial packet sent (might be combined with
one used for re-transmit) for waiting ServerHello. If a Version
Negotiation is received but totally unacceptable, just ignore it. If the
received Version Negotiation is acceptable, it could be considered after
the timeout instead of handled immediately. If a fake packet with
ServerHello received, it should be rejected by TLS so not considered
here.

* When a Version Negotiation is received, instead of handling it within
the same connection, handle it as another connection and remain the
original connection context. If then the ServerHello packet is received,
the new connection context could be dropped and the original connection
would be used following up. This approach might be more difficult to be
implemented than the previous one.

The approaches above are both covered by the statement to be proposed 
but not exhaustive. This should be a handling for client side so server
side would have no modification. Due to different implementations of
different clients, it could not be ensure that those approaches are
simple enough to be applied but those malicious Version Negotiation
packets should be properly handled. Also, the scenario where fake
Version Negotiation packets are triggered by each outgoing QUIC
(Initial) packet should also be considered.

For why those Version Negotiation attack would be utilized by malware, I
think they could pretend as server side problem then attract less
attention. If simply dropping packet or faking ICMP host unreachable are
utilized, it would be considered as an issue on route configuration so
more likely a client-side problem thus more attention.

Lingmo Zhu


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Subject: Re: Malicious Version Negotiation Handling (Was: Questions about Version Negotiation Concerning Possible Handshake Interruption)
To: Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>,  alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com, Lingmo Zhu <zlm2006@gmail.com>
Cc: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>
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I was very close to proposing dropping the version negotation packet in
favor of having the client offering multiple versions in the initial
ClientHello. It would also save a roundtrip if negotiating.

However, I realized that it would probably tie the version negotiation to
the TLS handshake which is not a very good idea.

Kind Regards,
Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen


On 18 February 2018 at 16.48.27, Lingmo Zhu (zlm2006@gmail.com) wrote:

Hi all

After some discussion with Kazuho and thanks to his help, I want to
propose that for Version Negotiation handling, "a client MAY wait for a
handshake packet after receiving a Version Negotiation packet".

The attack utilizing fake Version Negotiation is too cheap and easy to
be performed (due to no encryption exists) and would be harmful (even
stopping the establishment of connections) so should be mitigated. The
attack that means to make the client abort QUIC connection could be
easily performed with small footprint but also could be mitigated by
simply ignoring those unacceptable Version Negotiation packets in my
rough experiment (if could be called so). Some possible approaches might
be considered:

* A timer could be set after Initial packet sent (might be combined with
one used for re-transmit) for waiting ServerHello. If a Version
Negotiation is received but totally unacceptable, just ignore it. If the
received Version Negotiation is acceptable, it could be considered after
the timeout instead of handled immediately. If a fake packet with
ServerHello received, it should be rejected by TLS so not considered
here.

* When a Version Negotiation is received, instead of handling it within
the same connection, handle it as another connection and remain the
original connection context. If then the ServerHello packet is received,
the new connection context could be dropped and the original connection
would be used following up. This approach might be more difficult to be
implemented than the previous one.

The approaches above are both covered by the statement to be proposed
but not exhaustive. This should be a handling for client side so server
side would have no modification. Due to different implementations of
different clients, it could not be ensure that those approaches are
simple enough to be applied but those malicious Version Negotiation
packets should be properly handled. Also, the scenario where fake
Version Negotiation packets are triggered by each outgoing QUIC
(Initial) packet should also be considered.

For why those Version Negotiation attack would be utilized by malware, I
think they could pretend as server side problem then attract less
attention. If simply dropping packet or faking ICMP host unreachable are
utilized, it would be considered as an issue on route configuration so
more likely a client-side problem thus more attention.

Lingmo Zhu

--001a113eda8abbed4105657ed2de
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<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">I was very close to =
proposing dropping the version negotation packet in favor of having the cli=
ent offering multiple versions in the initial ClientHello. It would also sa=
ve a roundtrip if negotiating.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"f=
ont-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;=
line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-fami=
ly:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-hei=
ght:auto">However, I realized that it would probably tie the version negoti=
ation to the TLS handshake which is not a very good idea.</div> <br> <div i=
d=3D"bloop_sign_1518969977764264192" class=3D"bloop_sign"><div style=3D"fon=
t-family:helvetica,arial;font-size:13px">Kind Regards,</div><div style=3D"f=
ont-family:helvetica,arial;font-size:13px">Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgense=
n<br><br></div></div> <br><p class=3D"airmail_on">On 18 February 2018 at 16=
.48.27, Lingmo Zhu (<a href=3D"mailto:zlm2006@gmail.com">zlm2006@gmail.com<=
/a>) wrote:</p> <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq"><span><div><di=
v></div><div>Hi all
<br>
<br>After some discussion with Kazuho and thanks to his help, I want to
<br>propose that for Version Negotiation handling, &quot;a client MAY wait =
for a
<br>handshake packet after receiving a Version Negotiation packet&quot;.
<br>
<br>The attack utilizing fake Version Negotiation is too cheap and easy to
<br>be performed (due to no encryption exists) and would be harmful (even
<br>stopping the establishment of connections) so should be mitigated. The
<br>attack that means to make the client abort QUIC connection could be
<br>easily performed with small footprint but also could be mitigated by
<br>simply ignoring those unacceptable Version Negotiation packets in my
<br>rough experiment (if could be called so). Some possible approaches migh=
t
<br>be considered:
<br>
<br>* A timer could be set after Initial packet sent (might be combined wit=
h
<br>one used for re-transmit) for waiting ServerHello. If a Version
<br>Negotiation is received but totally unacceptable, just ignore it. If th=
e
<br>received Version Negotiation is acceptable, it could be considered afte=
r
<br>the timeout instead of handled immediately. If a fake packet with
<br>ServerHello received, it should be rejected by TLS so not considered
<br>here.
<br>
<br>* When a Version Negotiation is received, instead of handling it within
<br>the same connection, handle it as another connection and remain the
<br>original connection context. If then the ServerHello packet is received=
,
<br>the new connection context could be dropped and the original connection
<br>would be used following up. This approach might be more difficult to be
<br>implemented than the previous one.
<br>
<br>The approaches above are both covered by the statement to be proposed =
=20
<br>but not exhaustive. This should be a handling for client side so server
<br>side would have no modification. Due to different implementations of
<br>different clients, it could not be ensure that those approaches are
<br>simple enough to be applied but those malicious Version Negotiation
<br>packets should be properly handled. Also, the scenario where fake
<br>Version Negotiation packets are triggered by each outgoing QUIC
<br>(Initial) packet should also be considered.
<br>
<br>For why those Version Negotiation attack would be utilized by malware, =
I
<br>think they could pretend as server side problem then attract less
<br>attention. If simply dropping packet or faking ICMP host unreachable ar=
e
<br>utilized, it would be considered as an issue on route configuration so
<br>more likely a client-side problem thus more attention.
<br>
<br>Lingmo Zhu
<br></div></div></span></blockquote></body></html>

--001a113eda8abbed4105657ed2de--


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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
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Subject: Re: Malicious Version Negotiation Handling (Was: Questions about Version Negotiation Concerning Possible Handshake Interruption)
To: Lingmo Zhu <zlm2006@gmail.com>
Cc: Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>, alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com,  Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, =?UTF-8?Q?Mikkel_Fahn=C3=B8e_J=C3=B8rgensen?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>,  "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
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On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 7:48 AM, Lingmo Zhu <zlm2006@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi all
>
> After some discussion with Kazuho and thanks to his help, I want to
> propose that for Version Negotiation handling, "a client MAY wait for a
> handshake packet after receiving a Version Negotiation packet".
>

Can you describe the precise attack you are concerned about? The VN packet
contains the client's randomly chosen CID, so only an on-path attacker can
forge a VN, but such an attacker can also generate a bogus ServerHello or
other messages that would cause the QUIC negotiation to fail.

-Ekr


>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 7:48 AM, Lingmo Zhu <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:zlm2006@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">zlm2006@gmail.com</a>&gt;=
</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .=
8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi all<br>
<br>
After some discussion with Kazuho and thanks to his help, I want to<br>
propose that for Version Negotiation handling, &quot;a client MAY wait for =
a<br>
handshake packet after receiving a Version Negotiation packet&quot;.<br></b=
lockquote><div><br></div><div>Can you describe the precise attack you are c=
oncerned about? The VN packet</div><div>contains the client&#39;s randomly =
chosen CID, so only an on-path attacker can</div><div>forge a VN, but such =
an attacker can also generate a bogus ServerHello or</div><div>other messag=
es that would cause the QUIC negotiation to fail.</div><div><br></div><div>=
-Ekr</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br></blockquote>=
</div></div></div>

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The breakage of a stateless reset is limited.  It is only a problem
for clients that use - and depend on - connection IDs.

A stateless reset will not carry the client-selected connection ID.
It will appear - to the network - to be a change in connection ID.  If
we change connection IDs occasionally for other reasons, then this
won't be a significant problem.

The main problem is in ensuring that the packet arrives at the right
place at the client.  However, it is possible that we can suggest
routing based on address tuple over short timescales at clients.  In
that case, the reset might still arrive at the right place.  That, or
exceptional processing for unrouteable packets.

BTW, I like ekr's idea of making the number space for connection IDs
sparse.  A (short-ish) fixed limit is necessary to ensure that the
stateless reset can be constructed such that it appears plausible and
that means at least overhead + max(connection ID) + AEAD expansion +
an ACK frame.

Would also add the idea of a minimum size for connection IDs.  A one
octet connection ID has awful linkability properties that are pretty
much irredeemable.  You can get 8-22 with single octet steps if you
are willing to make 1-7 invalid.


On Sat, Feb 17, 2018 at 4:25 AM, Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com> wrote:
> Thanks for the excellent summary EKR.  I like this design and think the
> breakage of stateless reset in certain cases is acceptable, since it only
> applies if both sides must have their preferred connection ID present in
> order to route correctly, which is a use case that's impossible in the
> status quo.  I have not come up with any other downsides.
>
> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 12:01 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi folks,
>>
>> After a bunch of discussion, the CID task force came down to rough
>> consensus that asymmetric conn IDs were probably the right
>> direction (CID task force members, please feel free to voice dissent
>> here). Here's a complete writeup of what I think would be needed
>> for asymmetric connection IDs. It's not a PR, because I think
>> something self-contained is cleaner.
>>
>> Note that if we adopt this direction, we would be sacrificing
>> public reset under some conditions (see previous emails to the
>> list) and we would need to decide if it was worth keeping at all.
>>
>>
>> OVERVIEW
>> The basic idea is that each side gets to dictate the connection IDs
>> that are used to send to it. During the handshake, you establish those
>> CIDs and then each side can issue new CIDs during the connection.  The
>> main advantage of this is that it allows for symmetric topologies in which
>> the client is also behind some kind of stateless LB/router rather than
>> just the server. See Issue #1091 for more info on this.
>>
>>
>> The overall handshake looks something like this:
>>
>> Client                                      Server
>>
>> Initial [CID=XXX] {recv-CID=YYY} ---------------->
>> <-------------- Cleartext [CID=YYY] {recv-CID=ZZZ}
>> Cleartext [CID=ZZZ], {recv-CID=YYY} ------------->
>> <-------------------------- Short header [CID=YYY]
>> Short header [CID=ZZZ] -------------------------->
>>
>>
>> The client's initial CID (XXX) is special, and either consists of
>>
>>     (a) a randomly chosen dummy CID. Proposal: require this to be
>>         8 bytes or at least a minimum. This should be the same
>>         for all Initial packets in a connection (unless a stateless
>>         reject is received, as below).
>>     (b) a CID which it received from the server in a stateless reject
>>
>> All the server's packets are sent with the client's receive CID (YYY)
>> and all subsequent client packets are sent with the server's receive
>> CID (ZZZ). The general rule is that you should send with the
>> connection ID that you most recently received (where recently
>> is defined as highest PN).
>>
>> Note: I believe it's safe to just use the sending CID as the mixin
>> for the KDF, but I haven't thought this entirely through yet.
>>
>> Finally, you can send NEW_CONNECTION_ID in either direction to provide
>> a new connection ID for the other side to use. The general assumption
>> is that you can do this at any time, just as with current QUIC, and
>> that any time you send to a new remote 3-tuple you should change CIDs
>> if you can. Note that this means that endpoints should try to make
>> sure that the other side has spare CIDs in case they need to migrate.
>>
>>
>> WIRE ENCODING
>> As we discussed in the meeting the short header should just have
>> an implicit length CID. This gives us the following short header:
>>
>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>    |0|C|K| Type (5)|
>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>    |                                                               |
>>    +                     [Connection ID (*)]                       +  <-
>> change from 64
>>    |                                                               |
>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>    |                      Packet Number (8/16/32)                ...
>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>    |                     Protected Payload (*)                   ...
>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>
>> Note that we may also be able to dispense with the C bit, if each
>> side just gets to say "send me this CID exactly", why do we want
>> to say "here is my CID but you can omit it".
>>
>>
>> We have several options about the long header. The first question
>> is where recv-CIDs go. In previous versions I suggested putting
>> them in transport parameters, or elsewhere in the TLS handshake,
>> and that might still be viable, though it has some drawbacks [0],
>> so the other alternative is to put both CIDs in in the long header.
>> This would look something like:
>>
>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>    |1|   Type (7)  |
>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>    |  DCID-Length  |                                               |
>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+   Dst Connection ID (*)                       +
>>    |                                                               |
>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>    |  SCID-Length  |                                               |
>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+   Src Connection ID (*)                       +
>>    |                                                               |
>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>    |                         Version (32)                          |
>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>    |                       Packet Number (32)                      |
>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>    |                          Payload (*)                        ...
>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>
>> The semantics here are that the first value is the CID you want to
>> send to and the second one is the value you want used to send to you
>> (I've inverted these to keep the order the same as short header).
>>
>> Two notes about this encoding:
>>
>> 1. I think we agreed that we didn't want arbitrary length CIDs up to
>> 255 bytes, and yet we have room in this length byte. I propose we
>> limit it to 31 bytes and then grease the remaining 3 bits [1].
>>
>> 2. Because the client sends its CID first, there's no way to get the
>> current QUIC semantics of the server just dictates the CID.  I propose
>> we fix that by defining a special sentinel CID (all 1s, all 0s,
>> whatever) of whatever our maximum length is that means "just use your
>> own CID".
>>
>> We can endlessly bikeshed on this structure.
>>
>>
>> Finally, we will need to update NEW_CONNECTION_ID to allow a variable
>> length CID. This would look like this:
>>
>>     0                   1                   2                   3
>>     0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>    |                          Sequence (i)                       ...
>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>    |  CID-Length   |                                               |
>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+       Connection ID (*)                       +
>>    |                                                               |
>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>    |                                                               |
>>    +                                                               +
>>    |                                                               |
>>    +                   Stateless Reset Token (128)                 +
>>    |                                                               |
>>    +                                                               +
>>    |                                                               |
>>    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>
>>
>>
>> [0] However, in the transport parameters design, if the server's
>> handshake gets reordered, the client might need to send some ACKs with
>> the initial CID. However, we've agreed that the client's IP address
>> has to be stable, so this isn't a problem. Alternately, you could
>> change C->S CIDs in the short header if that was easier.
>>
>> [1] An alternative would be to have a sparse range (e.g., you can
>> express 0-7 and then 8-22 by 2s, assuming I have counted correctly)
>> and then we could pack both lengths into a single byte. As I said,
>> lots of opportunities for bikeshedding here.
>>
>


From nobody Sun Feb 18 18:10:49 2018
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Subject: Re: Malicious Version Negotiation Handling (Was: Questions about Version Negotiation Concerning Possible Handshake Interruption)
To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Cc: Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>, alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, =?UTF-8?Q?Mikkel_Fahn=c3=b8e_J=c3=b8rgensen?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
References: <1d386744-c46a-842a-b172-24e290e03668@gmail.com> <CABkgnnVRn+1sNZQFB8BZc4VyzN5usLmYJ3xLo+p2uTeW_0Ji_Q@mail.gmail.com> <CAN1APdfpJ0rYPPiOgfcdDRx3noh+YYvJatP0MYTqRRXMBwF6pA@mail.gmail.com> <3d558827-f2a7-877c-e00a-d6a22ef241c5@gmail.com> <CANatvzzZEuJ3TY=+0BMLqbBE5mScG_Jnrypg3xkciykOX78G8A@mail.gmail.com> <CAN1APdfov8Q3E+5NkT5pmMeU=eB=fsnDFe_=BK7TDE0TpXD3yA@mail.gmail.com> <142211e0-c7c9-642f-69ef-5f0d722b77cc@gmail.com> <529ac475-5291-2b2e-acf9-05efe720d584@huitema.net> <6937_1518251684_5A7EAEA4_6937_191_1_5A7EAEA5.2000605@orange.com> <CANatvzz_2BeRns5E-OO=CKKwK66LgMd=3vVCM84_+OAxj8CutQ@mail.gmail.com> <d3c8688a-3f01-30b1-a3de-1300a43c1d99@gmail.com> <835e5014-3306-e7ac-fed0-3c90320551a9@gmail.com> <CABcZeBOHgM1xnvmx=CWEEeLnU9bO3DuFCYzbk6m2Kg=sxbYZYA@mail.gmail.com>
From: Lingmo Zhu <zlm2006@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <efc46f51-41ff-f69c-d627-f6d585013b1e@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 10:10:40 +0800
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On 2018/02/19 1:25, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> 
> 
> On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 7:48 AM, Lingmo Zhu <zlm2006@gmail.com 
> <mailto:zlm2006@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
>     Hi all
> 
>     After some discussion with Kazuho and thanks to his help, I want to
>     propose that for Version Negotiation handling, "a client MAY wait for a
>     handshake packet after receiving a Version Negotiation packet".
> 
> 
> Can you describe the precise attack you are concerned about? The VN packet
> contains the client's randomly chosen CID, so only an on-path attacker can
> forge a VN, but such an attacker can also generate a bogus ServerHello or
> other messages that would cause the QUIC negotiation to fail.
> 
> -Ekr
> 
> 

It's an attack that generates VN packets with no acceptable version, on 
path. Of course such an attacker can generate other messages to 
interfere QUIC but utilizing VN packets needs no knowledge other than 
CID and no encryption, or only CID needs to be changed from a template. 
If other cleartext packet with wrong or no AEAD encryption described for 
the TLS handshake would be just ignored, those other messages should at 
least be encrypted, which costs much more and more complex to be 
implemented.

Lingmo Zhu


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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 18:55:45 -0800
Message-ID: <CABcZeBO4OHJDtFkjcCwRFNL_mU5QzOGBcC-zMJPHStJq090gzw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Malicious Version Negotiation Handling (Was: Questions about Version Negotiation Concerning Possible Handshake Interruption)
To: Lingmo Zhu <zlm2006@gmail.com>
Cc: Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>, alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com,  Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, =?UTF-8?Q?Mikkel_Fahn=C3=B8e_J=C3=B8rgensen?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>,  "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
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On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 6:10 PM, Lingmo Zhu <zlm2006@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On 2018/02/19 1:25, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 7:48 AM, Lingmo Zhu <zlm2006@gmail.com <mailto:
>> zlm2006@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>     Hi all
>>
>>     After some discussion with Kazuho and thanks to his help, I want to
>>     propose that for Version Negotiation handling, "a client MAY wait for
>> a
>>     handshake packet after receiving a Version Negotiation packet".
>>
>>
>> Can you describe the precise attack you are concerned about? The VN packet
>> contains the client's randomly chosen CID, so only an on-path attacker can
>> forge a VN, but such an attacker can also generate a bogus ServerHello or
>> other messages that would cause the QUIC negotiation to fail.
>>
>> -Ekr
>>
>>
>>
> It's an attack that generates VN packets with no acceptable version, on
> path. Of course such an attacker can generate other messages to interfere
> QUIC but utilizing VN packets needs no knowledge other than CID and no
> encryption, or only CID needs to be changed from a template. If other
> cleartext packet with wrong or no AEAD encryption described for the TLS
> handshake would be just ignored, those other messages should at least be
> encrypted, which costs much more and more complex to be implemented.


Thanks for the explanation. I don't consider this a significant difference
in attacker capabilities.

-Ekr


>
> Lingmo Zhu
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 6:10 PM, Lingmo Zhu <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:zlm2006@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">zlm2006@gmail.com</a>&gt;=
</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .=
8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
<br>
On 2018/02/19 1:25, Eric Rescorla wrote:<span class=3D""><br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
<br>
On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 7:48 AM, Lingmo Zhu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zlm2006@g=
mail.com" target=3D"_blank">zlm2006@gmail.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mai=
lto:zlm2006@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">zlm2006@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrot=
e:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Hi all<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 After some discussion with Kazuho and thanks to his help, I w=
ant to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 propose that for Version Negotiation handling, &quot;a client=
 MAY wait for a<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 handshake packet after receiving a Version Negotiation packet=
&quot;.<br>
<br>
<br>
Can you describe the precise attack you are concerned about? The VN packet<=
br>
contains the client&#39;s randomly chosen CID, so only an on-path attacker =
can<br>
forge a VN, but such an attacker can also generate a bogus ServerHello or<b=
r>
other messages that would cause the QUIC negotiation to fail.<br>
<br>
-Ekr<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br></span>
It&#39;s an attack that generates VN packets with no acceptable version, on=
 path. Of course such an attacker can generate other messages to interfere =
QUIC but utilizing VN packets needs no knowledge other than CID and no encr=
yption, or only CID needs to be changed from a template. If other cleartext=
 packet with wrong or no AEAD encryption described for the TLS handshake wo=
uld be just ignored, those other messages should at least be encrypted, whi=
ch costs much more and more complex to be implemented.</blockquote><div><br=
></div><div>Thanks for the explanation. I don&#39;t consider this a signifi=
cant difference in attacker capabilities.</div><div><br></div><div>-Ekr</di=
v><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8=
ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><fon=
t color=3D"#888888"><br>
<br>
Lingmo Zhu<br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

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From: Subodh Iyengar <subodh@fb.com>
To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, Lingmo Zhu <zlm2006@gmail.com>
CC: "alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com" <alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mikkel_Fahn=F8e_J=F8rgensen?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>, Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Malicious Version Negotiation Handling (Was: Questions about Version Negotiation Concerning Possible Handshake Interruption)
Thread-Topic: Malicious Version Negotiation Handling (Was: Questions about Version Negotiation Concerning Possible Handshake Interruption)
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> It's an attack that generates VN packets with no acceptable version, on p=
ath. Of course such an attacker can generate other messages to interfere QU=
IC but utilizing VN packets needs no knowledge other than CID and no encryp=
tion, or only CID needs to be changed from a template. If other cleartext p=
acket with wrong or no AEAD encryption described for the TLS handshake woul=
d be just ignored, those other messages should at least be encrypted, which=
 costs much more and more complex to be implemented.

I agree with ekr, a TLS alert is similar and does not require knowledge of =
any state, knowledge of the cid gives you the ability to craft a packet tha=
t will be accepted by the client (even Handshake packets).


Subodh

________________________________
From: QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com=
>
Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2018 6:55:45 PM
To: Lingmo Zhu
Cc: alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com; Christian Huitema; Mikkel Fahn=F8e J=F8r=
gensen; quic@ietf.org; Martin Thomson; Kazuho Oku
Subject: Re: Malicious Version Negotiation Handling (Was: Questions about V=
ersion Negotiation Concerning Possible Handshake Interruption)



On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 6:10 PM, Lingmo Zhu <zlm2006@gmail.com<mailto:zlm20=
06@gmail.com>> wrote:


On 2018/02/19 1:25, Eric Rescorla wrote:


On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 7:48 AM, Lingmo Zhu <zlm2006@gmail.com<mailto:zlm20=
06@gmail.com> <mailto:zlm2006@gmail.com<mailto:zlm2006@gmail.com>>> wrote:

    Hi all

    After some discussion with Kazuho and thanks to his help, I want to
    propose that for Version Negotiation handling, "a client MAY wait for a
    handshake packet after receiving a Version Negotiation packet".


Can you describe the precise attack you are concerned about? The VN packet
contains the client's randomly chosen CID, so only an on-path attacker can
forge a VN, but such an attacker can also generate a bogus ServerHello or
other messages that would cause the QUIC negotiation to fail.

-Ekr



It's an attack that generates VN packets with no acceptable version, on pat=
h. Of course such an attacker can generate other messages to interfere QUIC=
 but utilizing VN packets needs no knowledge other than CID and no encrypti=
on, or only CID needs to be changed from a template. If other cleartext pac=
ket with wrong or no AEAD encryption described for the TLS handshake would =
be just ignored, those other messages should at least be encrypted, which c=
osts much more and more complex to be implemented.

Thanks for the explanation. I don't consider this a significant difference =
in attacker capabilities.

-Ekr



Lingmo Zhu


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<p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"></p>
<div><br>
&gt; It's an attack that generates VN packets with no acceptable version, o=
n path. Of course such an attacker can generate other messages to interfere=
 QUIC but utilizing VN packets needs no knowledge other than CID and no enc=
ryption, or only CID needs to be changed
 from a template. If other cleartext packet with wrong or no AEAD encryptio=
n described for the TLS handshake would be just ignored, those other messag=
es should at least be encrypted, which costs much more and more complex to =
be implemented.</div>
<br>
I agree with ekr, a TLS alert is similar and does not require knowledge of =
any state, knowledge of the cid gives you the ability to craft a packet tha=
t will be accepted by the client (even Handshake packets).
<p></p>
<p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><br>
</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">Subodh<br>
</p>
</div>
<hr style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%" tabindex=3D"-1">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" st=
yle=3D"font-size:11pt" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> QUIC &lt;quic-bounces=
@ietf.org&gt; on behalf of Eric Rescorla &lt;ekr@rtfm.com&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, February 18, 2018 6:55:45 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Lingmo Zhu<br>
<b>Cc:</b> alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com; Christian Huitema; Mikkel Fahn=F8=
e J=F8rgensen; quic@ietf.org; Martin Thomson; Kazuho Oku<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Malicious Version Negotiation Handling (Was: Questions =
about Version Negotiation Concerning Possible Handshake Interruption)</font=
>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
<div class=3D"x_gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"x_gmail_quote">On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 6:10 PM, Lingmo Zhu <s=
pan dir=3D"ltr">
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zlm2006@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">zlm2006@gmail.co=
m</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"x_gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex; border-left=
:1px #ccc solid; padding-left:1ex">
<br>
<br>
On 2018/02/19 1:25, Eric Rescorla wrote:<span class=3D""><br>
<blockquote class=3D"x_gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex; border-left=
:1px #ccc solid; padding-left:1ex">
<br>
<br>
On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 7:48 AM, Lingmo Zhu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zlm2006@g=
mail.com" target=3D"_blank">zlm2006@gmail.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mai=
lto:zlm2006@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">zlm2006@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrot=
e:<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; Hi all<br>
<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; After some discussion with Kazuho and thanks to his help, I w=
ant to<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; propose that for Version Negotiation handling, &quot;a client=
 MAY wait for a<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; handshake packet after receiving a Version Negotiation packet=
&quot;.<br>
<br>
<br>
Can you describe the precise attack you are concerned about? The VN packet<=
br>
contains the client's randomly chosen CID, so only an on-path attacker can<=
br>
forge a VN, but such an attacker can also generate a bogus ServerHello or<b=
r>
other messages that would cause the QUIC negotiation to fail.<br>
<br>
-Ekr<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
</span>It's an attack that generates VN packets with no acceptable version,=
 on path. Of course such an attacker can generate other messages to interfe=
re QUIC but utilizing VN packets needs no knowledge other than CID and no e=
ncryption, or only CID needs to
 be changed from a template. If other cleartext packet with wrong or no AEA=
D encryption described for the TLS handshake would be just ignored, those o=
ther messages should at least be encrypted, which costs much more and more =
complex to be implemented.</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks for the explanation. I don't consider this a significant differ=
ence in attacker capabilities.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-Ekr</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"x_gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex; border-left=
:1px #ccc solid; padding-left:1ex">
<span class=3D"x_HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
<br>
Lingmo Zhu<br>
</font></span></blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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Subject: Re: Malicious Version Negotiation Handling (Was: Questions about Version Negotiation Concerning Possible Handshake Interruption)
To: Subodh Iyengar <subodh@fb.com>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Cc: "alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com" <alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, =?UTF-8?Q?Mikkel_Fahn=c3=b8e_J=c3=b8rgensen?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>, Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>
References: <1d386744-c46a-842a-b172-24e290e03668@gmail.com> <CABkgnnVRn+1sNZQFB8BZc4VyzN5usLmYJ3xLo+p2uTeW_0Ji_Q@mail.gmail.com> <CAN1APdfpJ0rYPPiOgfcdDRx3noh+YYvJatP0MYTqRRXMBwF6pA@mail.gmail.com> <3d558827-f2a7-877c-e00a-d6a22ef241c5@gmail.com> <CANatvzzZEuJ3TY=+0BMLqbBE5mScG_Jnrypg3xkciykOX78G8A@mail.gmail.com> <CAN1APdfov8Q3E+5NkT5pmMeU=eB=fsnDFe_=BK7TDE0TpXD3yA@mail.gmail.com> <142211e0-c7c9-642f-69ef-5f0d722b77cc@gmail.com> <529ac475-5291-2b2e-acf9-05efe720d584@huitema.net> <6937_1518251684_5A7EAEA4_6937_191_1_5A7EAEA5.2000605@orange.com> <CANatvzz_2BeRns5E-OO=CKKwK66LgMd=3vVCM84_+OAxj8CutQ@mail.gmail.com> <d3c8688a-3f01-30b1-a3de-1300a43c1d99@gmail.com> <835e5014-3306-e7ac-fed0-3c90320551a9@gmail.com> <CABcZeBOHgM1xnvmx=CWEEeLnU9bO3DuFCYzbk6m2Kg=sxbYZYA@mail.gmail.com> <efc46f51-41ff-f69c-d627-f6d585013b1e@gmail.com> <CABcZeBO4OHJDtFkjcCwRFNL_mU5QzOGBcC-zMJPHStJq090gzw@mail.gmail.com> <MWHPR15MB182101493383DBBDD889B6C7B6C80@MWHPR15MB1821.namprd15.prod.outlook.com>
From: Lingmo Zhu <zlm2006@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ae2d881a-1966-dc9a-f69a-44d13ad3d2e8@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 12:34:56 +0800
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Thank you for your comments and explanations. IMHO VN packet handling is 
part of QUIC transport which is independent with any specific TLS 
version, though attacks targeting TLS handshake could get similar result.

I understand that we could never win against on-path attackers. But I 
just wonder if we should consider about that or how far we could.

Lingmo Zhu

On 2018/02/19 11:41, Subodh Iyengar wrote:
> 
>  > It's an attack that generates VN packets with no acceptable version, 
> on path. Of course such an attacker can generate other messages to 
> interfere QUIC but utilizing VN packets needs no knowledge other than 
> CID and no encryption, or only CID needs to be changed from a template. 
> If other cleartext packet with wrong or no AEAD encryption described for 
> the TLS handshake would be just ignored, those other messages should at 
> least be encrypted, which costs much more and more complex to be 
> implemented.
> 
> I agree with ekr, a TLS alert is similar and does not require knowledge 
> of any state, knowledge of the cid gives you the ability to craft a 
> packet that will be accepted by the client (even Handshake packets).
> 
> 
> Subodh
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Eric Rescorla 
> <ekr@rtfm.com>
> *Sent:* Sunday, February 18, 2018 6:55:45 PM
> *To:* Lingmo Zhu
> *Cc:* alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com; Christian Huitema; Mikkel Fahnøe 
> Jørgensen; quic@ietf.org; Martin Thomson; Kazuho Oku
> *Subject:* Re: Malicious Version Negotiation Handling (Was: Questions 
> about Version Negotiation Concerning Possible Handshake Interruption)
> 
> 
> On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 6:10 PM, Lingmo Zhu <zlm2006@gmail.com 
> <mailto:zlm2006@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>     On 2018/02/19 1:25, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>         On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 7:48 AM, Lingmo Zhu <zlm2006@gmail.com
>         <mailto:zlm2006@gmail.com> <mailto:zlm2006@gmail.com
>         <mailto:zlm2006@gmail.com>>> wrote:
> 
>              Hi all
> 
>              After some discussion with Kazuho and thanks to his help, I
>         want to
>              propose that for Version Negotiation handling, "a client
>         MAY wait for a
>              handshake packet after receiving a Version Negotiation packet".
> 
> 
>         Can you describe the precise attack you are concerned about? The
>         VN packet
>         contains the client's randomly chosen CID, so only an on-path
>         attacker can
>         forge a VN, but such an attacker can also generate a bogus
>         ServerHello or
>         other messages that would cause the QUIC negotiation to fail.
> 
>         -Ekr
> 
> 
> 
>     It's an attack that generates VN packets with no acceptable version,
>     on path. Of course such an attacker can generate other messages to
>     interfere QUIC but utilizing VN packets needs no knowledge other
>     than CID and no encryption, or only CID needs to be changed from a
>     template. If other cleartext packet with wrong or no AEAD encryption
>     described for the TLS handshake would be just ignored, those other
>     messages should at least be encrypted, which costs much more and
>     more complex to be implemented.
> 
> 
> Thanks for the explanation. I don't consider this a significant 
> difference in attacker capabilities.
> 
> -Ekr
> 
> 
> 
>     Lingmo Zhu
> 
> 


From nobody Sun Feb 18 20:42:21 2018
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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 20:41:36 -0800
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Subject: Re: Malicious Version Negotiation Handling (Was: Questions about Version Negotiation Concerning Possible Handshake Interruption)
To: Lingmo Zhu <zlm2006@gmail.com>
Cc: Subodh Iyengar <subodh@fb.com>,  "alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com" <alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>,  =?UTF-8?Q?Mikkel_Fahn=C3=B8e_J=C3=B8rgensen?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>,  "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>,  Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>
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--001a113a7dd08cc7e3056589511f
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I don't think increasing the on-path attacker's marginal difficulty from
not requiring any crypto to requiring simple crypto in order to mount a DoS
attack is worth changing the protocol for.

-Ekr


On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 8:34 PM, Lingmo Zhu <zlm2006@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thank you for your comments and explanations. IMHO VN packet handling is
> part of QUIC transport which is independent with any specific TLS version=
,
> though attacks targeting TLS handshake could get similar result.
>
> I understand that we could never win against on-path attackers. But I jus=
t
> wonder if we should consider about that or how far we could.
>
> Lingmo Zhu
>
> On 2018/02/19 11:41, Subodh Iyengar wrote:
>
>>
>>  > It's an attack that generates VN packets with no acceptable version,
>> on path. Of course such an attacker can generate other messages to
>> interfere QUIC but utilizing VN packets needs no knowledge other than CI=
D
>> and no encryption, or only CID needs to be changed from a template. If
>> other cleartext packet with wrong or no AEAD encryption described for th=
e
>> TLS handshake would be just ignored, those other messages should at leas=
t
>> be encrypted, which costs much more and more complex to be implemented.
>>
>> I agree with ekr, a TLS alert is similar and does not require knowledge
>> of any state, knowledge of the cid gives you the ability to craft a pack=
et
>> that will be accepted by the client (even Handshake packets).
>>
>>
>> Subodh
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Eric Rescorla <
>> ekr@rtfm.com>
>> *Sent:* Sunday, February 18, 2018 6:55:45 PM
>> *To:* Lingmo Zhu
>> *Cc:* alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com; Christian Huitema; Mikkel Fahn=C3=
=B8e
>> J=C3=B8rgensen; quic@ietf.org; Martin Thomson; Kazuho Oku
>> *Subject:* Re: Malicious Version Negotiation Handling (Was: Questions
>> about Version Negotiation Concerning Possible Handshake Interruption)
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 6:10 PM, Lingmo Zhu <zlm2006@gmail.com <mailto:
>> zlm2006@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>     On 2018/02/19 1:25, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>         On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 7:48 AM, Lingmo Zhu <zlm2006@gmail.com
>>         <mailto:zlm2006@gmail.com> <mailto:zlm2006@gmail.com
>>
>>         <mailto:zlm2006@gmail.com>>> wrote:
>>
>>              Hi all
>>
>>              After some discussion with Kazuho and thanks to his help, I
>>         want to
>>              propose that for Version Negotiation handling, "a client
>>         MAY wait for a
>>              handshake packet after receiving a Version Negotiation
>> packet".
>>
>>
>>         Can you describe the precise attack you are concerned about? The
>>         VN packet
>>         contains the client's randomly chosen CID, so only an on-path
>>         attacker can
>>         forge a VN, but such an attacker can also generate a bogus
>>         ServerHello or
>>         other messages that would cause the QUIC negotiation to fail.
>>
>>         -Ekr
>>
>>
>>
>>     It's an attack that generates VN packets with no acceptable version,
>>     on path. Of course such an attacker can generate other messages to
>>     interfere QUIC but utilizing VN packets needs no knowledge other
>>     than CID and no encryption, or only CID needs to be changed from a
>>     template. If other cleartext packet with wrong or no AEAD encryption
>>     described for the TLS handshake would be just ignored, those other
>>     messages should at least be encrypted, which costs much more and
>>     more complex to be implemented.
>>
>>
>> Thanks for the explanation. I don't consider this a significant
>> difference in attacker capabilities.
>>
>> -Ekr
>>
>>
>>
>>     Lingmo Zhu
>>
>>
>>

--001a113a7dd08cc7e3056589511f
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">I don&#39;t think increasing the on-path attacker&#39;s ma=
rginal difficulty from not requiring any crypto to requiring simple crypto =
in order to mount a DoS attack is worth changing the protocol for.<div><br>=
</div><div>-Ekr</div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 8:34 PM, Lingmo Zhu <span =
dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zlm2006@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">zlm2=
006@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
yle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Thank=
 you for your comments and explanations. IMHO VN packet handling is part of=
 QUIC transport which is independent with any specific TLS version, though =
attacks targeting TLS handshake could get similar result.<br>
<br>
I understand that we could never win against on-path attackers. But I just =
wonder if we should consider about that or how far we could.<br>
<br>
Lingmo Zhu<span class=3D""><br>
<br>
On 2018/02/19 11:41, Subodh Iyengar wrote:<br>
</span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-=
left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D"">
<br>
=C2=A0&gt; It&#39;s an attack that generates VN packets with no acceptable =
version, on path. Of course such an attacker can generate other messages to=
 interfere QUIC but utilizing VN packets needs no knowledge other than CID =
and no encryption, or only CID needs to be changed from a template. If othe=
r cleartext packet with wrong or no AEAD encryption described for the TLS h=
andshake would be just ignored, those other messages should at least be enc=
rypted, which costs much more and more complex to be implemented.<br>
<br>
I agree with ekr, a TLS alert is similar and does not require knowledge of =
any state, knowledge of the cid gives you the ability to craft a packet tha=
t will be accepted by the client (even Handshake packets).<br>
<br>
<br>
Subodh<br>
<br></span>
------------------------------<wbr>------------------------------<wbr>-----=
-------<br>
*From:* QUIC &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Eric Rescorla &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_blank">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt;<br>
*Sent:* Sunday, February 18, 2018 6:55:45 PM<br>
*To:* Lingmo Zhu<br>
*Cc:* <a href=3D"mailto:alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com" target=3D"_blank">al=
exandre.ferrieux@orange.com</a>; Christian Huitema; Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=
=B8rgensen; <a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic@ietf.or=
g</a>; Martin Thomson; Kazuho Oku<br>
*Subject:* Re: Malicious Version Negotiation Handling (Was: Questions about=
 Version Negotiation Concerning Possible Handshake Interruption)<span class=
=3D""><br>
<br>
<br>
On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 6:10 PM, Lingmo Zhu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:zlm2006@g=
mail.com" target=3D"_blank">zlm2006@gmail.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mai=
lto:zlm2006@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">zlm2006@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrot=
e:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On 2018/02/19 1:25, Eric Rescorla wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 7:48 AM, Lingmo Zhu &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:zlm2006@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">zlm2006@gmail.com</=
a><br></span>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:zlm2006@gmail.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">zlm2006@gmail.com</a>&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:z=
lm2006@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">zlm2006@gmail.com</a><div><div class=3D=
"h5"><br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:zlm2006@gmail.com"=
 target=3D"_blank">zlm2006@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Hi all<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 After some discussion with =
Kazuho and thanks to his help, I<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 want to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 propose that for Version Ne=
gotiation handling, &quot;a client<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 MAY wait for a<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 handshake packet after rece=
iving a Version Negotiation packet&quot;.<br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Can you describe the precise attack you are con=
cerned about? The<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 VN packet<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 contains the client&#39;s randomly chosen CID, =
so only an on-path<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 attacker can<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 forge a VN, but such an attacker can also gener=
ate a bogus<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ServerHello or<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 other messages that would cause the QUIC negoti=
ation to fail.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 -Ekr<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 It&#39;s an attack that generates VN packets with no acceptab=
le version,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 on path. Of course such an attacker can generate other messag=
es to<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 interfere QUIC but utilizing VN packets needs no knowledge ot=
her<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 than CID and no encryption, or only CID needs to be changed f=
rom a<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 template. If other cleartext packet with wrong or no AEAD enc=
ryption<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 described for the TLS handshake would be just ignored, those =
other<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 messages should at least be encrypted, which costs much more =
and<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 more complex to be implemented.<br>
<br>
<br>
Thanks for the explanation. I don&#39;t consider this a significant differe=
nce in attacker capabilities.<br>
<br>
-Ekr<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Lingmo Zhu<br>
<br>
<br>
</div></div></blockquote>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a113a7dd08cc7e3056589511f--


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Subject: Re: Malicious Version Negotiation Handling (Was: Questions about Version Negotiation Concerning Possible Handshake Interruption)
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On 2/18/2018 8:41 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:

> I don't think increasing the on-path attacker's marginal difficulty
> from not requiring any crypto to requiring simple crypto in order to
> mount a DoS attack is worth changing the protocol for.

Changing the protocol, probably not. But Lingmo's suggestion is one of
the several steps that we could take against hardening against a man on
the side attack. And it is a very simple one: if you receive a VN that
does not contain any acceptable option, just ignore it. If this was
legit, the connection will actually break after a short timer. If it was
not, the next received message will be a Server Hello, and the
connection will progress. Sounds like a reasonable trade-off.

-- Christian Huitema



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References: <1d386744-c46a-842a-b172-24e290e03668@gmail.com> <3d558827-f2a7-877c-e00a-d6a22ef241c5@gmail.com> <CANatvzzZEuJ3TY=+0BMLqbBE5mScG_Jnrypg3xkciykOX78G8A@mail.gmail.com> <CAN1APdfov8Q3E+5NkT5pmMeU=eB=fsnDFe_=BK7TDE0TpXD3yA@mail.gmail.com> <142211e0-c7c9-642f-69ef-5f0d722b77cc@gmail.com> <529ac475-5291-2b2e-acf9-05efe720d584@huitema.net> <6937_1518251684_5A7EAEA4_6937_191_1_5A7EAEA5.2000605@orange.com> <CANatvzz_2BeRns5E-OO=CKKwK66LgMd=3vVCM84_+OAxj8CutQ@mail.gmail.com> <d3c8688a-3f01-30b1-a3de-1300a43c1d99@gmail.com> <835e5014-3306-e7ac-fed0-3c90320551a9@gmail.com> <CABcZeBOHgM1xnvmx=CWEEeLnU9bO3DuFCYzbk6m2Kg=sxbYZYA@mail.gmail.com> <efc46f51-41ff-f69c-d627-f6d585013b1e@gmail.com> <CABcZeBO4OHJDtFkjcCwRFNL_mU5QzOGBcC-zMJPHStJq090gzw@mail.gmail.com> <MWHPR15MB182101493383DBBDD889B6C7B6C80@MWHPR15MB1821.namprd15.prod.outlook.com> <ae2d881a-1966-dc9a-f69a-44d13ad3d2e8@gmail.com> <CABcZeBPBZBaYigxNdbBq3=JtKuz8wN-WhNBwsxTdAtS=uJv2Rw@mail.gmail.com> <7317339e-3b4a-bf03-5624-e0d81f5c8a2c@huitema.net>
From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 20:54:18 -0800
Message-ID: <CABcZeBN1hYug-0_VEVyGPRgG0=zHzJazcSo9=WdR09yk9WDO4Q@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Malicious Version Negotiation Handling (Was: Questions about Version Negotiation Concerning Possible Handshake Interruption)
To: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
Cc: IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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--94eb2c062738f8ece70565897ebb
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 8:49 PM, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
wrote:

> On 2/18/2018 8:41 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>
> > I don't think increasing the on-path attacker's marginal difficulty
> > from not requiring any crypto to requiring simple crypto in order to
> > mount a DoS attack is worth changing the protocol for.
>
> Changing the protocol, probably not. But Lingmo's suggestion is one of
> the several steps that we could take against hardening against a man on
> the side attack. And it is a very simple one: if you receive a VN that
> does not contain any acceptable option, just ignore it. If this was
> legit, the connection will actually break after a short timer. If it was
> not, the next received message will be a Server Hello, and the
> connection will progress. Sounds like a reasonable trade-off.
>

I think it's fine if people do this. I don't think it's worth requiring in
the spec given the existence of other trivial man-on-the-side attacks.

-Ekr


> -- Christian Huitema
>
>
>

--94eb2c062738f8ece70565897ebb
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 8:49 PM, Christian Huitema <span dir=3D"ltr">&l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:huitema@huitema.net" target=3D"_blank">huitema@huitema.=
net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D"=
">On 2/18/2018 8:41 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; I don&#39;t think increasing the on-path attacker&#39;s marginal diffi=
culty<br>
&gt; from not requiring any crypto to requiring simple crypto in order to<b=
r>
&gt; mount a DoS attack is worth changing the protocol for.<br>
<br>
</span>Changing the protocol, probably not. But Lingmo&#39;s suggestion is =
one of<br>
the several steps that we could take against hardening against a man on<br>
the side attack. And it is a very simple one: if you receive a VN that<br>
does not contain any acceptable option, just ignore it. If this was<br>
legit, the connection will actually break after a short timer. If it was<br=
>
not, the next received message will be a Server Hello, and the<br>
connection will progress. Sounds like a reasonable trade-off.<br></blockquo=
te><div><br></div><div>I think it&#39;s fine if people do this. I don&#39;t=
 think it&#39;s worth requiring in the spec given the existence of other tr=
ivial man-on-the-side attacks.</div><div><br></div><div>-Ekr</div><div><br>=
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l=
eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
-- Christian Huitema<br>
<br>
<br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--94eb2c062738f8ece70565897ebb--


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From: "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>
To: "ekr@rtfm.com" <ekr@rtfm.com>, "huitema@huitema.net" <huitema@huitema.net>
CC: "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Malicious Version Negotiation Handling (Was: Questions about Version Negotiation Concerning Possible Handshake Interruption)
Thread-Topic: Malicious Version Negotiation Handling (Was: Questions about Version Negotiation Concerning Possible Handshake Interruption)
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Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2018 13:26:37 +0000
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--_000_6ec913dc5ecd494eb951ac716e87d40eusma1exdag1mb5msgcorpak_
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For clients that have a tcp fallback, this kind of an attack mitigation wou=
ld need to be done together with some happy eyeballs race. Otherwise, waiti=
ng for a timeout on VN has a real performance cost to the user in case ther=
e is no attack happening. So if this kind of an artificial delay in VN is m=
entioned, starting the fallback would need to be mentioned as well. All thi=
s seems like it could belong to an optimization/applicability/happy-eyeball=
s-for-QUIC draft, if it belongs anywhere at all, but not the transport draf=
t.

-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Rescorla [ekr@rtfm.com]
Received: Sunday, 18 Feb 2018, 11:55PM
To: Christian Huitema [huitema@huitema.net]
CC: IETF QUIC WG [quic@ietf.org]
Subject: Re: Malicious Version Negotiation Handling (Was: Questions about V=
ersion Negotiation Concerning Possible Handshake Interruption)



On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 8:49 PM, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net<mai=
lto:huitema@huitema.net>> wrote:
On 2/18/2018 8:41 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:

> I don't think increasing the on-path attacker's marginal difficulty
> from not requiring any crypto to requiring simple crypto in order to
> mount a DoS attack is worth changing the protocol for.

Changing the protocol, probably not. But Lingmo's suggestion is one of
the several steps that we could take against hardening against a man on
the side attack. And it is a very simple one: if you receive a VN that
does not contain any acceptable option, just ignore it. If this was
legit, the connection will actually break after a short timer. If it was
not, the next received message will be a Server Hello, and the
connection will progress. Sounds like a reasonable trade-off.

I think it's fine if people do this. I don't think it's worth requiring in =
the spec given the existence of other trivial man-on-the-side attacks.

-Ekr


-- Christian Huitema




--_000_6ec913dc5ecd494eb951ac716e87d40eusma1exdag1mb5msgcorpak_
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<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii"=
>
<meta content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8">
</head>
<body>
<span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:11=
pt; color:black">For clients that have a tcp fallback, this kind of an atta=
ck mitigation would need to be done together with some happy eyeballs race.=
 Otherwise, waiting for a timeout
 on VN has a real performance cost to the user in case there is no attack h=
appening. So if this kind of an artificial delay in VN is mentioned, starti=
ng the fallback would need to be mentioned as well. All this seems like it =
could belong to an optimization/applicability/happy-eyeballs-for-QUIC
 draft, if it belongs anywhere at all, but not the transport draft.<br>
<br>
<span style=3D"color:black">-----Original Message----- <br>
<b>From:</b> Eric Rescorla [ekr@rtfm.com]<br>
<b>Received:</b> Sunday, 18 Feb 2018, 11:55PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Christian Huitema [huitema@huitema.net]<br>
<b>CC:</b> IETF QUIC WG [quic@ietf.org]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Malicious Version Negotiation Handling (Was: Questions =
about Version Negotiation Concerning Possible Handshake Interruption)<br>
<br>
</span></span>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 8:49 PM, Christian Huite=
ma <span dir=3D"ltr">
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:huitema@huitema.net" target=3D"_blank">huitema@huitem=
a.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex; border-left:1=
px #ccc solid; padding-left:1ex">
<span class=3D"">On 2/18/2018 8:41 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; I don't think increasing the on-path attacker's marginal difficulty<br=
>
&gt; from not requiring any crypto to requiring simple crypto in order to<b=
r>
&gt; mount a DoS attack is worth changing the protocol for.<br>
<br>
</span>Changing the protocol, probably not. But Lingmo's suggestion is one =
of<br>
the several steps that we could take against hardening against a man on<br>
the side attack. And it is a very simple one: if you receive a VN that<br>
does not contain any acceptable option, just ignore it. If this was<br>
legit, the connection will actually break after a short timer. If it was<br=
>
not, the next received message will be a Server Hello, and the<br>
connection will progress. Sounds like a reasonable trade-off.<br>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I think it's fine if people do this. I don't think it's worth requirin=
g in the spec given the existence of other trivial man-on-the-side attacks.=
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-Ekr</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex; border-left:1=
px #ccc solid; padding-left:1ex">
<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
-- Christian Huitema<br>
<br>
<br>
</font></span></blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_6ec913dc5ecd494eb951ac716e87d40eusma1exdag1mb5msgcorpak_--


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From: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
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On 2/19/2018 5:26 AM, Lubashev, Igor wrote:

> For clients that have a tcp fallback, this kind of an attack
> mitigation would need to be done together with some happy eyeballs
> race. Otherwise, waiting for a timeout on VN has a real performance
> cost to the user in case there is no attack happening. So if this kind
> of an artificial delay in VN is mentioned, starting the fallback would
> need to be mentioned as well. All this seems like it could belong to
> an optimization/applicability/happy-eyeballs-for-QUIC draft, if it
> belongs anywhere at all, but not the transport draft.

That's reasonable. Several people have expressed concerns about
man-on-the-side attacks. We have heard various proposals for hardening
the initial handshake. The typical concern is an adversary "that taps
optic fiber at an internet distribution node", to use Mikkel's words,
although we may also be concerned by an on-link attacker in an Ethernet
or Wi-Fi network. The adversary gets a copy of packets, parses them, and
finds a pattern that triggers an attack. The adversary then sends a
forged packet to one end of the connection or another, with a goal of
causing either a connection failure or a security downgrade.

Lingmo Zhu is concerned with a specific variant of this attack, sending
a forged version negotiation packet. I think that's a valid concern, but
only one of many. We should be equally concerned with forged stateless
reset packets, or forged handshake packets: anything that happens before
protection is negotiated can be forged.=A0 I would support writing a draf=
t
that enumerates these attacks, and proposes plausible defenses.

-- Christian Huitema

--=20

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  <body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
    <p>On 2/19/2018 5:26 AM, Lubashev, Igor wrote:<br>
    </p>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:6ec913dc5ecd494eb951ac716e87d40e@usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com"><span
        style="font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;
        font-size:11pt; color:black">For clients that have a tcp
        fallback, this kind of an attack mitigation would need to be
        done together with some happy eyeballs race. Otherwise, waiting
        for a timeout on VN has a real performance cost to the user in
        case there is no attack happening. So if this kind of an
        artificial delay in VN is mentioned, starting the fallback would
        need to be mentioned as well. All this seems like it could
        belong to an optimization/applicability/happy-eyeballs-for-QUIC
        draft, if it belongs anywhere at all, but not the transport
        draft.</span></blockquote>
    <br>
    That's reasonable. Several people have expressed concerns about
    man-on-the-side attacks. We have heard various proposals for
    hardening the initial handshake. The typical concern is an adversary
    "that taps optic fiber at an internet distribution node", to use
    Mikkel's words, although we may also be concerned by an on-link
    attacker in an Ethernet or Wi-Fi network. The adversary gets a copy
    of packets, parses them, and finds a pattern that triggers an
    attack. The adversary then sends a forged packet to one end of the
    connection or another, with a goal of causing either a connection
    failure or a security downgrade.<br>
    <br>
    Lingmo Zhu is concerned with a specific variant of this attack,
    sending a forged version negotiation packet. I think that's a valid
    concern, but only one of many. We should be equally concerned with
    forged stateless reset packets, or forged handshake packets:
    anything that happens before protection is negotiated can be
    forged.  I would support writing a draft that enumerates these
    attacks, and proposes plausible defenses.<br>
    <br>
    -- Christian Huitema<br>
    <br>
    -- <br>
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Subject: Re: Malicious Version Negotiation Handling (Was: Questions about Version Negotiation Concerning Possible Handshake Interruption)
To: "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, "ekr@rtfm.com" <ekr@rtfm.com>
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Two factor hasn't been mentioned at all - and at first sight it might seem
a bit off.

However, considering the availability of both auth apps and Fido HW
authentication devices, this could be built into the early handshake as an
option.


On 19 February 2018 at 19.32.46, Christian Huitema (huitema@huitema.net)
wrote:

On 2/19/2018 5:26 AM, Lubashev, Igor wrote:

For clients that have a tcp fallback, this kind of an attack mitigation
would need to be done together with some happy eyeballs race. Otherwise,
waiting for a timeout on VN has a real performance cost to the user in case
there is no attack happening. So if this kind of an artificial delay in VN
is mentioned, starting the fallback would need to be mentioned as well. All
this seems like it could belong to an
optimization/applicability/happy-eyeballs-for-QUIC draft, if it belongs
anywhere at all, but not the transport draft.


That's reasonable. Several people have expressed concerns about
man-on-the-side attacks. We have heard various proposals for hardening the
initial handshake. The typical concern is an adversary "that taps optic
fiber at an internet distribution node", to use Mikkel's words, although we
may also be concerned by an on-link attacker in an Ethernet or Wi-Fi
network. The adversary gets a copy of packets, parses them, and finds a
pattern that triggers an attack. The adversary then sends a forged packet
to one end of the connection or another, with a goal of causing either a
connection failure or a security downgrade.

Lingmo Zhu is concerned with a specific variant of this attack, sending a
forged version negotiation packet. I think that's a valid concern, but only
one of many. We should be equally concerned with forged stateless reset
packets, or forged handshake packets: anything that happens before
protection is negotiated can be forged.  I would support writing a draft
that enumerates these attacks, and proposes plausible defenses.

-- Christian Huitema

--

--001a114760b24bdd300565950db3
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">Two factor hasn&#39;=
t been mentioned at all - and at first sight it might seem a bit off.</div>=
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=
=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;c=
olor:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">However, considering the =
availability of both auth apps and Fido HW authentication devices, this cou=
ld be built into the early handshake as an option.</div><div id=3D"bloop_cu=
stomfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,=
0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div> <br><p class=3D"airmail_on=
">On 19 February 2018 at 19.32.46, Christian Huitema (<a href=3D"mailto:hui=
tema@huitema.net">huitema@huitema.net</a>) wrote:</p> <blockquote type=3D"c=
ite" class=3D"clean_bq"><span><div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><di=
v></div><div>



<title></title>


<p>On 2/19/2018 5:26 AM, Lubashev, Igor wrote:<br></p>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" cite=3D"mid:6ec913dc5ecd494eb951ac716e87d40e@usma=
1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com">
<span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:11p=
t;color:black">
For clients that have a tcp fallback, this kind of an attack
mitigation would need to be done together with some happy eyeballs
race. Otherwise, waiting for a timeout on VN has a real performance
cost to the user in case there is no attack happening. So if this
kind of an artificial delay in VN is mentioned, starting the
fallback would need to be mentioned as well. All this seems like it
could belong to an
optimization/applicability/happy-eyeballs-for-QUIC draft, if it
belongs anywhere at all, but not the transport
draft.</span></blockquote>
<br>
That&#39;s reasonable. Several people have expressed concerns about
man-on-the-side attacks. We have heard various proposals for
hardening the initial handshake. The typical concern is an
adversary &quot;that taps optic fiber at an internet distribution node&quot=
;,
to use Mikkel&#39;s words, although we may also be concerned by an
on-link attacker in an Ethernet or Wi-Fi network. The adversary
gets a copy of packets, parses them, and finds a pattern that
triggers an attack. The adversary then sends a forged packet to one
end of the connection or another, with a goal of causing either a
connection failure or a security downgrade.<br>
<br>
Lingmo Zhu is concerned with a specific variant of this attack,
sending a forged version negotiation packet. I think that&#39;s a valid
concern, but only one of many. We should be equally concerned with
forged stateless reset packets, or forged handshake packets:
anything that happens before protection is negotiated can be
forged.=C2=A0 I would support writing a draft that enumerates these
attacks, and proposes plausible defenses.<br>
<br>
-- Christian Huitema<br>
<br>
--<br>


</div></div></span></blockquote></body></html>

--001a114760b24bdd300565950db3--


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Subject: Re: Asymmetric CIDs
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I don=E2=80=99t want to shoot down ACID at all, but if a stateless reset is
intended to be invisible (not sure why? ossification?, hardly replay?) then
it cannot reflect the clients CID because it would light up like a
Christmas tree simply because the CID is the same in both directions,
unless CID=E2=80=99s are somehow encrypted which would be hard for stateles=
s reset.

On the other hand, if the reset is intentionally visible, then peer routers
could attempt to match the reverse routing path, or do some internal
broadcasting find and terminate the relevant destination.

Resets should exponentially back off, but that binds state which could be
exploited to a degree.

Resets could enter a strange ping pong pattern, especially when not routed
correctly: B sends reset to A, A does not understand reset and sends a
reset to B to silence A, which in turn sends a reset to A.

A and B is cluster, so there could be many endpoint in each so back-off
would not kick in.

As I said before, I=E2=80=99d prefer clients to stop sending when peer is n=
ot
responding. If a reset is to work, the other end needs to cooperate anyway.
Routers could drop packets of unwanted CID=E2=80=99s. This would also handl=
e cases
where peer receives packets and ACK=E2=80=99s but the return path is broken
(eventually timeout will kill, but it could happen faster with a challenge)=
.

Kind Regards,
Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen


On 19 February 2018 at 01.30.50, Martin Thomson (martin.thomson@gmail.com)
wrote:

The breakage of a stateless reset is limited. It is only a problem
for clients that use - and depend on - connection IDs.

A stateless reset will not carry the client-selected connection ID.
It will appear - to the network - to be a change in connection ID. If
we change connection IDs occasionally for other reasons, then this
won't be a significant problem.

The main problem is in ensuring that the packet arrives at the right
place at the client. However, it is possible that we can suggest
routing based on address tuple over short timescales at clients. In
that case, the reset might still arrive at the right place. That, or
exceptional processing for unrouteable packets.

BTW, I like ekr's idea of making the number space for connection IDs
sparse. A (short-ish) fixed limit is necessary to ensure that the
stateless reset can be constructed such that it appears plausible and
that means at least overhead + max(connection ID) + AEAD expansion +
an ACK frame.

Would also add the idea of a minimum size for connection IDs. A one
octet connection ID has awful linkability properties that are pretty
much irredeemable. You can get 8-22 with single octet steps if you
are willing to make 1-7 invalid.


On Sat, Feb 17, 2018 at 4:25 AM, Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com> wrote:
> Thanks for the excellent summary EKR. I like this design and think the
> breakage of stateless reset in certain cases is acceptable, since it only
> applies if both sides must have their preferred connection ID present in
> order to route correctly, which is a use case that's impossible in the
> status quo. I have not come up with any other downsides.
>
> On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 12:01 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi folks,
>>
>> After a bunch of discussion, the CID task force came down to rough
>> consensus that asymmetric conn IDs were probably the right
>> direction (CID task force members, please feel free to voice dissent
>> here). Here's a complete writeup of what I think would be needed
>> for asymmetric connection IDs. It's not a PR, because I think
>> something self-contained is cleaner.
>>
>> Note that if we adopt this direction, we would be sacrificing
>> public reset under some conditions (see previous emails to the
>> list) and we would need to decide if it was worth keeping at all.
>>
>>
>> OVERVIEW
>> The basic idea is that each side gets to dictate the connection IDs
>> that are used to send to it. During the handshake, you establish those
>> CIDs and then each side can issue new CIDs during the connection. The
>> main advantage of this is that it allows for symmetric topologies in
which
>> the client is also behind some kind of stateless LB/router rather than
>> just the server. See Issue #1091 for more info on this.
>>
>>
>> The overall handshake looks something like this:
>>
>> Client Server
>>
>> Initial [CID=3DXXX] {recv-CID=3DYYY} ---------------->
>> <-------------- Cleartext [CID=3DYYY] {recv-CID=3DZZZ}
>> Cleartext [CID=3DZZZ], {recv-CID=3DYYY} ------------->
>> <-------------------------- Short header [CID=3DYYY]
>> Short header [CID=3DZZZ] -------------------------->
>>
>>
>> The client's initial CID (XXX) is special, and either consists of
>>
>> (a) a randomly chosen dummy CID. Proposal: require this to be
>> 8 bytes or at least a minimum. This should be the same
>> for all Initial packets in a connection (unless a stateless
>> reject is received, as below).
>> (b) a CID which it received from the server in a stateless reject
>>
>> All the server's packets are sent with the client's receive CID (YYY)
>> and all subsequent client packets are sent with the server's receive
>> CID (ZZZ). The general rule is that you should send with the
>> connection ID that you most recently received (where recently
>> is defined as highest PN).
>>
>> Note: I believe it's safe to just use the sending CID as the mixin
>> for the KDF, but I haven't thought this entirely through yet.
>>
>> Finally, you can send NEW_CONNECTION_ID in either direction to provide
>> a new connection ID for the other side to use. The general assumption
>> is that you can do this at any time, just as with current QUIC, and
>> that any time you send to a new remote 3-tuple you should change CIDs
>> if you can. Note that this means that endpoints should try to make
>> sure that the other side has spare CIDs in case they need to migrate.
>>
>>
>> WIRE ENCODING
>> As we discussed in the meeting the short header should just have
>> an implicit length CID. This gives us the following short header:
>>
>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>> |0|C|K| Type (5)|
>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>> | |
>> + [Connection ID (*)] + <-
>> change from 64
>> | |
>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>> | Packet Number (8/16/32) ...
>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>> | Protected Payload (*) ...
>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>
>> Note that we may also be able to dispense with the C bit, if each
>> side just gets to say "send me this CID exactly", why do we want
>> to say "here is my CID but you can omit it".
>>
>>
>> We have several options about the long header. The first question
>> is where recv-CIDs go. In previous versions I suggested putting
>> them in transport parameters, or elsewhere in the TLS handshake,
>> and that might still be viable, though it has some drawbacks [0],
>> so the other alternative is to put both CIDs in in the long header.
>> This would look something like:
>>
>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>> |1| Type (7) |
>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>> | DCID-Length | |
>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Dst Connection ID (*) +
>> | |
>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>> | SCID-Length | |
>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Src Connection ID (*) +
>> | |
>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>> | Version (32) |
>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>> | Packet Number (32) |
>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>> | Payload (*) ...
>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>
>> The semantics here are that the first value is the CID you want to
>> send to and the second one is the value you want used to send to you
>> (I've inverted these to keep the order the same as short header).
>>
>> Two notes about this encoding:
>>
>> 1. I think we agreed that we didn't want arbitrary length CIDs up to
>> 255 bytes, and yet we have room in this length byte. I propose we
>> limit it to 31 bytes and then grease the remaining 3 bits [1].
>>
>> 2. Because the client sends its CID first, there's no way to get the
>> current QUIC semantics of the server just dictates the CID. I propose
>> we fix that by defining a special sentinel CID (all 1s, all 0s,
>> whatever) of whatever our maximum length is that means "just use your
>> own CID".
>>
>> We can endlessly bikeshed on this structure.
>>
>>
>> Finally, we will need to update NEW_CONNECTION_ID to allow a variable
>> length CID. This would look like this:
>>
>> 0 1 2 3
>> 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1
>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>> | Sequence (i) ...
>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>> | CID-Length | |
>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Connection ID (*) +
>> | |
>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>> | |
>> + +
>> | |
>> + Stateless Reset Token (128) +
>> | |
>> + +
>> | |
>> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
>>
>>
>>
>> [0] However, in the transport parameters design, if the server's
>> handshake gets reordered, the client might need to send some ACKs with
>> the initial CID. However, we've agreed that the client's IP address
>> has to be stable, so this isn't a problem. Alternately, you could
>> change C->S CIDs in the short header if that was easier.
>>
>> [1] An alternative would be to have a sparse range (e.g., you can
>> express 0-7 and then 8-22 by 2s, assuming I have counted correctly)
>> and then we could pack both lengths into a single byte. As I said,
>> lots of opportunities for bikeshedding here.
>>
>

--f403043d0f88919b6b05659567ef
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">I don=E2=80=99t want=
 to shoot down ACID at all, but if a stateless reset is intended to be invi=
sible (not sure why? ossification?, hardly replay?) then it cannot reflect =
the clients CID because it would light up like a Christmas tree simply beca=
use the CID is the same in both directions, unless CID=E2=80=99s are someho=
w encrypted which would be hard for stateless reset.=C2=A0</div><div id=3D"=
bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color=
:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_cu=
stomfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,=
0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">On the other hand, if the reset is in=
tentionally visible, then peer routers could attempt to match the reverse r=
outing path, or do some internal broadcasting find and terminate the releva=
nt destination.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helv=
etica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:aut=
o"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Ar=
ial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">Reset=
s should exponentially back off, but that binds state which could be exploi=
ted to a degree.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Hel=
vetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:au=
to"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,A=
rial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">Rese=
ts could enter a strange ping pong pattern, especially when not routed corr=
ectly: B sends reset to A, A does not understand reset and sends a reset to=
 B to silence A, which in turn sends a reset to A.</div><div id=3D"bloop_cu=
stomfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,=
0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont=
" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0)=
;margin:0px;line-height:auto">A and B is cluster, so there could be many en=
dpoint in each so back-off would not kick in.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customf=
ont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1=
.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" sty=
le=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);marg=
in:0px;line-height:auto">As I said before, I=E2=80=99d prefer clients to st=
op sending when peer is not responding. If a reset is to work, the other en=
d needs to cooperate anyway. Routers could drop packets of unwanted CID=E2=
=80=99s. This would also handle cases where peer receives packets and ACK=
=E2=80=99s but the return path is broken (eventually timeout will kill, but=
 it could happen faster with a challenge).</div> <br> <div id=3D"bloop_sign=
_1519066470823954176" class=3D"bloop_sign"><div style=3D"font-family:helvet=
ica,arial;font-size:13px">Kind Regards,</div><div style=3D"font-family:helv=
etica,arial;font-size:13px">Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen<br><br></div>=
</div> <br><p class=3D"airmail_on">On 19 February 2018 at 01.30.50, Martin =
Thomson (<a href=3D"mailto:martin.thomson@gmail.com">martin.thomson@gmail.c=
om</a>) wrote:</p> <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq"><span><div>=
<div></div><div>The breakage of a stateless reset is limited.  It is only a=
 problem
<br>for clients that use - and depend on - connection IDs.
<br>
<br>A stateless reset will not carry the client-selected connection ID.
<br>It will appear - to the network - to be a change in connection ID.  If
<br>we change connection IDs occasionally for other reasons, then this
<br>won&#39;t be a significant problem.
<br>
<br>The main problem is in ensuring that the packet arrives at the right
<br>place at the client.  However, it is possible that we can suggest
<br>routing based on address tuple over short timescales at clients.  In
<br>that case, the reset might still arrive at the right place.  That, or
<br>exceptional processing for unrouteable packets.
<br>
<br>BTW, I like ekr&#39;s idea of making the number space for connection ID=
s
<br>sparse.  A (short-ish) fixed limit is necessary to ensure that the
<br>stateless reset can be constructed such that it appears plausible and
<br>that means at least overhead + max(connection ID) + AEAD expansion +
<br>an ACK frame.
<br>
<br>Would also add the idea of a minimum size for connection IDs.  A one
<br>octet connection ID has awful linkability properties that are pretty
<br>much irredeemable.  You can get 8-22 with single octet steps if you
<br>are willing to make 1-7 invalid.
<br>
<br>
<br>On Sat, Feb 17, 2018 at 4:25 AM, Ian Swett &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ianswe=
tt@google.com">ianswett@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:
<br>&gt; Thanks for the excellent summary EKR.  I like this design and thin=
k the
<br>&gt; breakage of stateless reset in certain cases is acceptable, since =
it only
<br>&gt; applies if both sides must have their preferred connection ID pres=
ent in
<br>&gt; order to route correctly, which is a use case that&#39;s impossibl=
e in the
<br>&gt; status quo.  I have not come up with any other downsides.
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 12:01 PM, Eric Rescorla &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:ekr@rtfm.com">ekr@rtfm.com</a>&gt; wrote:
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt; Hi folks,
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt; After a bunch of discussion, the CID task force came down to r=
ough
<br>&gt;&gt; consensus that asymmetric conn IDs were probably the right
<br>&gt;&gt; direction (CID task force members, please feel free to voice d=
issent
<br>&gt;&gt; here). Here&#39;s a complete writeup of what I think would be =
needed
<br>&gt;&gt; for asymmetric connection IDs. It&#39;s not a PR, because I th=
ink
<br>&gt;&gt; something self-contained is cleaner.
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt; Note that if we adopt this direction, we would be sacrificing
<br>&gt;&gt; public reset under some conditions (see previous emails to the
<br>&gt;&gt; list) and we would need to decide if it was worth keeping at a=
ll.
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt; OVERVIEW
<br>&gt;&gt; The basic idea is that each side gets to dictate the connectio=
n IDs
<br>&gt;&gt; that are used to send to it. During the handshake, you establi=
sh those
<br>&gt;&gt; CIDs and then each side can issue new CIDs during the connecti=
on.  The
<br>&gt;&gt; main advantage of this is that it allows for symmetric topolog=
ies in which
<br>&gt;&gt; the client is also behind some kind of stateless LB/router rat=
her than
<br>&gt;&gt; just the server. See Issue #1091 for more info on this.
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt; The overall handshake looks something like this:
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt; Client                                      Server
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt; Initial [CID=3DXXX] {recv-CID=3DYYY} ----------------&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt; &lt;-------------- Cleartext [CID=3DYYY] {recv-CID=3DZZZ}
<br>&gt;&gt; Cleartext [CID=3DZZZ], {recv-CID=3DYYY} -------------&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt; &lt;-------------------------- Short header [CID=3DYYY]
<br>&gt;&gt; Short header [CID=3DZZZ] --------------------------&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt; The client&#39;s initial CID (XXX) is special, and either cons=
ists of
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt;     (a) a randomly chosen dummy CID. Proposal: require this to=
 be
<br>&gt;&gt;         8 bytes or at least a minimum. This should be the same
<br>&gt;&gt;         for all Initial packets in a connection (unless a stat=
eless
<br>&gt;&gt;         reject is received, as below).
<br>&gt;&gt;     (b) a CID which it received from the server in a stateless=
 reject
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt; All the server&#39;s packets are sent with the client&#39;s re=
ceive CID (YYY)
<br>&gt;&gt; and all subsequent client packets are sent with the server&#39=
;s receive
<br>&gt;&gt; CID (ZZZ). The general rule is that you should send with the
<br>&gt;&gt; connection ID that you most recently received (where recently
<br>&gt;&gt; is defined as highest PN).
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt; Note: I believe it&#39;s safe to just use the sending CID as t=
he mixin
<br>&gt;&gt; for the KDF, but I haven&#39;t thought this entirely through y=
et.
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt; Finally, you can send NEW_CONNECTION_ID in either direction to=
 provide
<br>&gt;&gt; a new connection ID for the other side to use. The general ass=
umption
<br>&gt;&gt; is that you can do this at any time, just as with current QUIC=
, and
<br>&gt;&gt; that any time you send to a new remote 3-tuple you should chan=
ge CIDs
<br>&gt;&gt; if you can. Note that this means that endpoints should try to =
make
<br>&gt;&gt; sure that the other side has spare CIDs in case they need to m=
igrate.
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt; WIRE ENCODING
<br>&gt;&gt; As we discussed in the meeting the short header should just ha=
ve
<br>&gt;&gt; an implicit length CID. This gives us the following short head=
er:
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt;    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
<br>&gt;&gt;    |0|C|K| Type (5)|
<br>&gt;&gt;    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=
-+-+-+
<br>&gt;&gt;    |                                                          =
     |
<br>&gt;&gt;    +                     [Connection ID (*)]                  =
     +  &lt;-
<br>&gt;&gt; change from 64
<br>&gt;&gt;    |                                                          =
     |
<br>&gt;&gt;    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=
-+-+-+
<br>&gt;&gt;    |                      Packet Number (8/16/32)             =
   ...
<br>&gt;&gt;    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=
-+-+-+
<br>&gt;&gt;    |                     Protected Payload (*)                =
   ...
<br>&gt;&gt;    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=
-+-+-+
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt; Note that we may also be able to dispense with the C bit, if e=
ach
<br>&gt;&gt; side just gets to say &quot;send me this CID exactly&quot;, wh=
y do we want
<br>&gt;&gt; to say &quot;here is my CID but you can omit it&quot;.
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt; We have several options about the long header. The first quest=
ion
<br>&gt;&gt; is where recv-CIDs go. In previous versions I suggested puttin=
g
<br>&gt;&gt; them in transport parameters, or elsewhere in the TLS handshak=
e,
<br>&gt;&gt; and that might still be viable, though it has some drawbacks [=
0],
<br>&gt;&gt; so the other alternative is to put both CIDs in in the long he=
ader.
<br>&gt;&gt; This would look something like:
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt;    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
<br>&gt;&gt;    |1|   Type (7)  |
<br>&gt;&gt;    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=
-+-+-+
<br>&gt;&gt;    |  DCID-Length  |                                          =
     |
<br>&gt;&gt;    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+   Dst Connection ID (*)                  =
     +
<br>&gt;&gt;    |                                                          =
     |
<br>&gt;&gt;    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=
-+-+-+
<br>&gt;&gt;    |  SCID-Length  |                                          =
     |
<br>&gt;&gt;    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+   Src Connection ID (*)                  =
     +
<br>&gt;&gt;    |                                                          =
     |
<br>&gt;&gt;    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=
-+-+-+
<br>&gt;&gt;    |                         Version (32)                     =
     |
<br>&gt;&gt;    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=
-+-+-+
<br>&gt;&gt;    |                       Packet Number (32)                 =
     |
<br>&gt;&gt;    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=
-+-+-+
<br>&gt;&gt;    |                          Payload (*)                     =
   ...
<br>&gt;&gt;    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=
-+-+-+
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt; The semantics here are that the first value is the CID you wan=
t to
<br>&gt;&gt; send to and the second one is the value you want used to send =
to you
<br>&gt;&gt; (I&#39;ve inverted these to keep the order the same as short h=
eader).
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt; Two notes about this encoding:
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt; 1. I think we agreed that we didn&#39;t want arbitrary length =
CIDs up to
<br>&gt;&gt; 255 bytes, and yet we have room in this length byte. I propose=
 we
<br>&gt;&gt; limit it to 31 bytes and then grease the remaining 3 bits [1].
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt; 2. Because the client sends its CID first, there&#39;s no way =
to get the
<br>&gt;&gt; current QUIC semantics of the server just dictates the CID.  I=
 propose
<br>&gt;&gt; we fix that by defining a special sentinel CID (all 1s, all 0s=
,
<br>&gt;&gt; whatever) of whatever our maximum length is that means &quot;j=
ust use your
<br>&gt;&gt; own CID&quot;.
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt; We can endlessly bikeshed on this structure.
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt; Finally, we will need to update NEW_CONNECTION_ID to allow a v=
ariable
<br>&gt;&gt; length CID. This would look like this:
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt;     0                   1                   2                 =
  3
<br>&gt;&gt;     0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 =
9 0 1
<br>&gt;&gt;    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=
-+-+-+
<br>&gt;&gt;    |                          Sequence (i)                    =
   ...
<br>&gt;&gt;    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=
-+-+-+
<br>&gt;&gt;    |  CID-Length   |                                          =
     |
<br>&gt;&gt;    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+       Connection ID (*)                  =
     +
<br>&gt;&gt;    |                                                          =
     |
<br>&gt;&gt;    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=
-+-+-+
<br>&gt;&gt;    |                                                          =
     |
<br>&gt;&gt;    +                                                          =
     +
<br>&gt;&gt;    |                                                          =
     |
<br>&gt;&gt;    +                   Stateless Reset Token (128)            =
     +
<br>&gt;&gt;    |                                                          =
     |
<br>&gt;&gt;    +                                                          =
     +
<br>&gt;&gt;    |                                                          =
     |
<br>&gt;&gt;    +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+=
-+-+-+
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt; [0] However, in the transport parameters design, if the server=
&#39;s
<br>&gt;&gt; handshake gets reordered, the client might need to send some A=
CKs with
<br>&gt;&gt; the initial CID. However, we&#39;ve agreed that the client&#39=
;s IP address
<br>&gt;&gt; has to be stable, so this isn&#39;t a problem. Alternately, yo=
u could
<br>&gt;&gt; change C-&gt;S CIDs in the short header if that was easier.
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;&gt; [1] An alternative would be to have a sparse range (e.g., you =
can
<br>&gt;&gt; express 0-7 and then 8-22 by 2s, assuming I have counted corre=
ctly)
<br>&gt;&gt; and then we could pack both lengths into a single byte. As I s=
aid,
<br>&gt;&gt; lots of opportunities for bikeshedding here.
<br>&gt;&gt;
<br>&gt;
<br>
<br></div></div></span></blockquote></body></html>

--f403043d0f88919b6b05659567ef--


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From: Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 15:56:28 +0900
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Subject: Re: Asymmetric CIDs
To: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>
Cc: Nick Banks <nibanks@microsoft.com>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>,  huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>,  Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>
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2018-02-17 7:45 GMT+09:00 Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>:
> I agree that could be a concern, but I think it's no more difficult to solve
> than the status quo.  It just means both sides need to have more connection
> IDs, not just one side.
>
> Nick's solution is a good suggestion, but one can also imagine cases when
> other connection IDs have previously been made available.

Another approach will be to use the first N octets of the stateless
reset token (provided by the server) as the connection ID.

For example, if the stateless reset token is 00 01 02 03 04 ... 7f,
and if the length of the CID is 4 octets, the server will use 00 01 02
03 as the CID and 04..7f as the payload of a stateless reset.

> In practice, for most of the cases we're discussing, I'm expecting the
> connection ID from server to client will be 0 bytes in length, making this a
> non-issue.

Agreed.

-- 
Kazuho Oku


From nobody Tue Feb 20 03:53:25 2018
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From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 06:53:20 -0500
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Subject: Re: Malicious Version Negotiation Handling (Was: Questions about Version Negotiation Concerning Possible Handshake Interruption)
To: "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>
Cc: "ekr@rtfm.com" <ekr@rtfm.com>, "huitema@huitema.net" <huitema@huitema.net>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>
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--001a11c148660473b10565a375e1
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Replying with no hats ...

On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 8:26 AM, Lubashev, Igor <ilubashe@akamai.com> wrote:

> For clients that have a tcp fallback, this kind of an attack mitigation
> would need to be done together with some happy eyeballs race. Otherwise,
> waiting for a timeout on VN has a real performance cost to the user in case
> there is no attack happening.
>

I don't understand this. Is your thinking that the attacker would send a
forged VN packet AND drop the server's response?

If so, that does make sense, but if that's not part of the scenario, I
don't know why the client wouldn't drop the forged "no acceptable version
numbers" packet and accept the server's packet, at roughly the same point
in time where there would have accepted the server's packet if there was no
attack.

Are we talking about the same thing?

(To be clear, I don't have an opinion about what the working group decides,
but I do want to understand what's being discussed)

Thanks,

Spencer


> So if this kind of an artificial delay in VN is mentioned, starting the
> fallback would need to be mentioned as well. All this seems like it could
> belong to an optimization/applicability/happy-eyeballs-for-QUIC draft, if
> it belongs anywhere at all, but not the transport draft.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* Eric Rescorla [ekr@rtfm.com]
> *Received:* Sunday, 18 Feb 2018, 11:55PM
> *To:* Christian Huitema [huitema@huitema.net]
> *CC:* IETF QUIC WG [quic@ietf.org]
> *Subject:* Re: Malicious Version Negotiation Handling (Was: Questions
> about Version Negotiation Concerning Possible Handshake Interruption)
>
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 8:49 PM, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2/18/2018 8:41 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:
>>
>> > I don't think increasing the on-path attacker's marginal difficulty
>> > from not requiring any crypto to requiring simple crypto in order to
>> > mount a DoS attack is worth changing the protocol for.
>>
>> Changing the protocol, probably not. But Lingmo's suggestion is one of
>> the several steps that we could take against hardening against a man on
>> the side attack. And it is a very simple one: if you receive a VN that
>> does not contain any acceptable option, just ignore it. If this was
>> legit, the connection will actually break after a short timer. If it was
>> not, the next received message will be a Server Hello, and the
>> connection will progress. Sounds like a reasonable trade-off.
>>
>
> I think it's fine if people do this. I don't think it's worth requiring in
> the spec given the existence of other trivial man-on-the-side attacks.
>
> -Ekr
>
>
>> -- Christian Huitema
>>
>>
>>
>

--001a11c148660473b10565a375e1
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Replying with no hats ...<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 8:26 AM, Lubashev, Igor <s=
pan dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ilubashe@akamai.com" target=3D"_blank=
">ilubashe@akamai.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1e=
x">




<div>
<span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:11p=
t;color:black">For clients that have a tcp fallback, this kind of an attack=
 mitigation would need to be done together with some happy eyeballs race. O=
therwise, waiting for a timeout
 on VN has a real performance cost to the user in case there is no attack h=
appening. </span></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I don&#39;t underst=
and this. Is your thinking that the attacker would send a forged VN packet =
AND drop the server&#39;s response?=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>If so, t=
hat does make sense, but if that&#39;s not part of the scenario, I don&#39;=
t know why the client wouldn&#39;t drop the forged &quot;no acceptable vers=
ion numbers&quot; packet and accept the server&#39;s packet, at roughly the=
 same point in time where there would have accepted the server&#39;s packet=
 if there was no attack.</div><div><br></div><div>Are we talking about the =
same thing?=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>(To be clear, I don&#39;t have a=
n opinion about what the working group decides, but I do want to understand=
 what&#39;s being discussed)</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div><br=
></div><div>Spencer</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><d=
iv><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:=
11pt;color:black">So if this kind of an artificial delay in VN is mentioned=
, starting the fallback would need to be mentioned as well. All this seems =
like it could belong to an optimization/applicability/<wbr>happy-eyeballs-f=
or-QUIC
 draft, if it belongs anywhere at all, but not the transport draft.<div><di=
v class=3D"h5"><br>
<br>
<span style=3D"color:black">-----Original Message----- <br>
<b>From:</b> Eric Rescorla [<a href=3D"mailto:ekr@rtfm.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">ekr@rtfm.com</a>]<br>
<b>Received:</b> Sunday, 18 Feb 2018, 11:55PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Christian Huitema [<a href=3D"mailto:huitema@huitema.net" target=
=3D"_blank">huitema@huitema.net</a>]<br>
<b>CC:</b> IETF QUIC WG [<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank"=
>quic@ietf.org</a>]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Malicious Version Negotiation Handling (Was: Questions =
about Version Negotiation Concerning Possible Handshake Interruption)<br>
<br>
</span></div></div></span><div><div class=3D"h5">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 8:49 PM, Christian Huite=
ma <span dir=3D"ltr">
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:huitema@huitema.net" target=3D"_blank">huitema@huitem=
a.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<span>On 2/18/2018 8:41 PM, Eric Rescorla wrote:<br>
<br>
&gt; I don&#39;t think increasing the on-path attacker&#39;s marginal diffi=
culty<br>
&gt; from not requiring any crypto to requiring simple crypto in order to<b=
r>
&gt; mount a DoS attack is worth changing the protocol for.<br>
<br>
</span>Changing the protocol, probably not. But Lingmo&#39;s suggestion is =
one of<br>
the several steps that we could take against hardening against a man on<br>
the side attack. And it is a very simple one: if you receive a VN that<br>
does not contain any acceptable option, just ignore it. If this was<br>
legit, the connection will actually break after a short timer. If it was<br=
>
not, the next received message will be a Server Hello, and the<br>
connection will progress. Sounds like a reasonable trade-off.<br>
</blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I think it&#39;s fine if people do this. I don&#39;t think it&#39;s wo=
rth requiring in the spec given the existence of other trivial man-on-the-s=
ide attacks.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-Ekr</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<span class=3D"m_7729523609020470915HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
-- Christian Huitema<br>
<br>
<br>
</font></span></blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div></div></div>

</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--001a11c148660473b10565a375e1--


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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the QUIC WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Header Compression for HTTP over QUIC
        Authors         : Charles 'Buck' Krasic
                          Mike Bishop
                          Alan Frindell
	Filename        : draft-ietf-quic-qcram-00.txt
	Pages           : 11
	Date            : 2018-02-20

Abstract:
   The design of the core QUIC transport subsumes many HTTP/2 features,
   prominent among them stream multiplexing.  A key advantage of the
   QUIC transport is stream multiplexing free of head-of-line (HoL)
   blocking between streams.  In HTTP/2, multiplexed streams can suffer
   HoL blocking due to TCP.

   If HTTP/2's HPACK is used for header compression, HTTP/QUIC is still
   vulnerable to HoL blocking, because of HPACK's assumption of in-order
   delivery.  This draft defines QCRAM, a variation of HPACK and
   mechanisms in the HTTP/QUIC mapping that allow the flexibility to
   avoid header-compression-induced HoL blocking.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-quic-qcram/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-quic-qcram-00
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-quic-qcram-00


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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I know, I know, you are probably still struggling your way through
interop with -09, but the editors want to know if people want a set of
drafts that reference the newly added QCRAM and invariants docs.

There would be no change to interop targets.

We were originally hoping to include fixes to the bigger open issues,
but those seem unlikely to resolve in time for the March 5 draft
submission cutoff.  And now there might be some people who want to try
out hq-10 now that it has a plausible header compression story.


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Sender: rpaulo@apple.com
Subject: Re: Who wants -10 drafts?
From: Rui Paulo <rpaulo@apple.com>
In-reply-to: <CABkgnnVWdRYDKUwgrfTjRmb9q_M9bAiysVYy-zDicGLrEGcvng@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 17:36:10 -0800
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To: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
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On Feb 20, 2018, at 17:00, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> I know, I know, you are probably still struggling your way through
> interop with -09, but the editors want to know if people want a set of
> drafts that reference the newly added QCRAM and invariants docs.

I wouldn=E2=80=99t mind and I think a published draft is reviewed by =
more people.

> There would be no change to interop targets.
>=20
> We were originally hoping to include fixes to the bigger open issues,
> but those seem unlikely to resolve in time for the March 5 draft
> submission cutoff.  And now there might be some people who want to try
> out hq-10 now that it has a plausible header compression story.

For the purposes of the interop, I believe we were still doing HTTP 0.9. =
 Has that changed?

I=E2=80=99m not sure how many people will take advantage of hq-10 =
interop but I don=E2=80=99t see any harm in publishing -10 drafts.

=E2=80=94
Rui Paulo




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From: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 13:08:42 +1100
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Subject: Re: Who wants -10 drafts?
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On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 12:36 PM, Rui Paulo <rpaulo@apple.com> wrote:
> For the purposes of the interop, I believe we were still doing HTTP 0.9. =
 Has that changed?

Yes, interop is QUIC -09 and HTTP 0.9 (no relation).

> I=E2=80=99m not sure how many people will take advantage of hq-10 interop=
 but I don=E2=80=99t see any harm in publishing -10 drafts.

I might, but whether that is possible will depend on a great many
things.  Nor do I think my own implementation matters much in
determining this.


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On 2/20/2018 6:08 PM, Martin Thomson wrote:

> On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 12:36 PM, Rui Paulo <rpaulo@apple.com> wrote:
>> For the purposes of the interop, I believe we were still doing HTTP 0.9.  Has that changed?
> Yes, interop is QUIC -09 and HTTP 0.9 (no relation).
>
>> I’m not sure how many people will take advantage of hq-10 interop but I don’t see any harm in publishing -10 drafts.
> I might, but whether that is possible will depend on a great many
> things.  Nor do I think my own implementation matters much in
> determining this.

I understand that at some point we must start moving up the stack and
test the HTTP mappings. I am not anywhere close to ready with that,
because I am not starting with an HTTP 2 implementation. If it is what
is takes to test the transport, I will do one, or port one. But no way I
can do that in the next 8 days.

-- Christian Huitema

--------------60EC88D1D0ADA80CC31F00EE
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<html>
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    <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
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  <body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
    <p>On 2/20/2018 6:08 PM, Martin Thomson wrote:<br>
    </p>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CABkgnnUBZdexEaxbnXb+L1U-b0mMZ9MH91ZnDduGqT97vcF+Yw@mail.gmail.com">
      <div class="moz-text-plain" wrap="true" graphical-quote="true"
        style="font-family: -moz-fixed; font-size: 14px;"
        lang="x-unicode">
        <pre wrap="">On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 12:36 PM, Rui Paulo <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rpaulo@apple.com" moz-do-not-send="true">&lt;rpaulo@apple.com&gt;</a> wrote:
</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite" style="color: #000000;">
          <pre wrap="">For the purposes of the interop, I believe we were still doing HTTP 0.9.  Has that changed?
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">Yes, interop is QUIC -09 and HTTP 0.9 (no relation).

</pre>
        <blockquote type="cite" style="color: #000000;">
          <pre wrap="">I’m not sure how many people will take advantage of hq-10 interop but I don’t see any harm in publishing -10 drafts.
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">I might, but whether that is possible will depend on a great many
things.  Nor do I think my own implementation matters much in
determining this.
</pre>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    I understand that at some point we must start moving up the stack
    and test the HTTP mappings. I am not anywhere close to ready with
    that, because I am not starting with an HTTP 2 implementation. If it
    is what is takes to test the transport, I will do one, or port one.
    But no way I can do that in the next 8 days. <br>
    <br>
    -- Christian Huitema<br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------60EC88D1D0ADA80CC31F00EE--


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From: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2018 19:36:15 -0800
Message-ID: <CABcZeBMfnMho_E7HMpVWWH-UivDkSODLzZG-a8O0seJ4ZggYmg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Who wants -10 drafts?
To: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
Cc: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>, Rui Paulo <rpaulo@apple.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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I would be very sad if we needed the H2 implementation to test QUIC. That
seems like it would be bad for layering.

-Ekr


On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 7:06 PM, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
wrote:

> On 2/20/2018 6:08 PM, Martin Thomson wrote:
>
> On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 12:36 PM, Rui Paulo <rpaulo@apple.com> <rpaulo@ap=
ple.com> wrote:
>
> For the purposes of the interop, I believe we were still doing HTTP 0.9. =
 Has that changed?
>
> Yes, interop is QUIC -09 and HTTP 0.9 (no relation).
>
>
> I=E2=80=99m not sure how many people will take advantage of hq-10 interop=
 but I don=E2=80=99t see any harm in publishing -10 drafts.
>
> I might, but whether that is possible will depend on a great many
> things.  Nor do I think my own implementation matters much in
> determining this.
>
>
> I understand that at some point we must start moving up the stack and tes=
t
> the HTTP mappings. I am not anywhere close to ready with that, because I =
am
> not starting with an HTTP 2 implementation. If it is what is takes to tes=
t
> the transport, I will do one, or port one. But no way I can do that in th=
e
> next 8 days.
>
> -- Christian Huitema
>

--001a113b7f188ce7480565b0a3fd
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<div dir=3D"ltr">I would be very sad if we needed the H2 implementation to =
test QUIC. That seems like it would be bad for layering.<div><br></div><div=
>-Ekr</div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 7:06 PM, Christian Huitema <span d=
ir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:huitema@huitema.net" target=3D"_blank">hui=
tema@huitema.net</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
 =20
   =20
 =20
  <div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div><div class=3D"h5">
    <p>On 2/20/2018 6:08 PM, Martin Thomson wrote:<br>
    </p>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite">
      <div class=3D"m_4514742309673559151moz-text-plain" style=3D"font-fami=
ly:-moz-fixed;font-size:14px" lang=3D"x-unicode">
        <pre>On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 12:36 PM, Rui Paulo <a class=3D"m_4514=
742309673559151moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href=3D"mailto:rpaulo@apple.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">&lt;rpaulo@apple.com&gt;</a> wrote:
</pre>
        <blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"color:#000000">
          <pre>For the purposes of the interop, I believe we were still doi=
ng HTTP 0.9.  Has that changed?
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre>Yes, interop is QUIC -09 and HTTP 0.9 (no relation).

</pre>
        <blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"color:#000000">
          <pre>I=E2=80=99m not sure how many people will take advantage of =
hq-10 interop but I don=E2=80=99t see any harm in publishing -10 drafts.
</pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre>I might, but whether that is possible will depend on a great m=
any
things.  Nor do I think my own implementation matters much in
determining this.
</pre>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br></div></div>
    I understand that at some point we must start moving up the stack
    and test the HTTP mappings. I am not anywhere close to ready with
    that, because I am not starting with an HTTP 2 implementation. If it
    is what is takes to test the transport, I will do one, or port one.
    But no way I can do that in the next 8 days. <br><span class=3D"HOEnZb"=
><font color=3D"#888888">
    <br>
    -- Christian Huitema<br>
  </font></span></div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>

--001a113b7f188ce7480565b0a3fd--


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From: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 14:45:02 +1100
Message-ID: <CABkgnnWvgE_muuaF5B-ez9v14cGbqvfa9YDaHJn-AixJcEM0sA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Who wants -10 drafts?
To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
Cc: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, Rui Paulo <rpaulo@apple.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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No risk of that.

Some people are looking to take the next step and get some experience
with a non-toy upper layer.  I agree that for the group as a whole,
that step is a little way away just yet.

On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 2:36 PM, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com> wrote:
> I would be very sad if we needed the H2 implementation to test QUIC. That
> seems like it would be bad for layering.
>
> -Ekr
>
>
> On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 7:06 PM, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
> wrote:
>>
>> On 2/20/2018 6:08 PM, Martin Thomson wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 12:36 PM, Rui Paulo <rpaulo@apple.com> wrote:
>>
>> For the purposes of the interop, I believe we were still doing HTTP 0.9.
>> Has that changed?
>>
>> Yes, interop is QUIC -09 and HTTP 0.9 (no relation).
>>
>> I=E2=80=99m not sure how many people will take advantage of hq-10 intero=
p but I
>> don=E2=80=99t see any harm in publishing -10 drafts.
>>
>> I might, but whether that is possible will depend on a great many
>> things.  Nor do I think my own implementation matters much in
>> determining this.
>>
>>
>> I understand that at some point we must start moving up the stack and te=
st
>> the HTTP mappings. I am not anywhere close to ready with that, because I=
 am
>> not starting with an HTTP 2 implementation. If it is what is takes to te=
st
>> the transport, I will do one, or port one. But no way I can do that in t=
he
>> next 8 days.
>>
>> -- Christian Huitema
>
>


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Hi,

On 2018-2-21, at 2:00, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> I know, I know, you are probably still struggling your way through
> interop with -09, but the editors want to know if people want a set of
> drafts that reference the newly added QCRAM and invariants docs.
>=20
> There would be no change to interop targets.

chair hat off, as an implementer: As long as we can agree to stay with =
09 (aka 4th implementation draft) for London, I don't care.

Lars



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References: <CABkgnnVyo3MmWtVULiV=FJTnR528qfY8-OmKGWAs0bCvri-a_g@mail.gmail.com> <2102BDC2-62C0-4A76-8ADE-8167437E2D07@trammell.ch> <CAN1APde6o6=aCXuWajPFSU=jXv-ERdVHk=uyjM71uQ_uU-oMTg@mail.gmail.com> <8e833029-68b5-2787-3897-a0f7818a259f@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <1de39727-eeec-0e7a-1e8b-5ed50433c5bd@cs.tcd.ie> <MWHPR08MB2432D0216BC8FE1B0D9E3690DAFD0@MWHPR08MB2432.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> <CAGD1bZauKbucs_5n7RQbK8H2HiyfiqpGVEcKreGA6umhMBSFgg@mail.gmail.com> <CABcZeBPNrc-9vANSH02r++p53s6gN4pVB8DMd80nUxOhKTp3dA@mail.gmail.com> <CAKcm_gMvHSBhpUvsQCCkV2_o+d_wchF3R3L6H8mp6nKNaaRmSw@mail.gmail.com> <CY4PR21MB0133CCAA6807469BA983D00BB6FC0@CY4PR21MB0133.namprd21.prod.outlook.com> <CABkgnnW4xr_YzpsvCxaJJgcQdBTuX=Yv735_sdd4VoMfji8mbA@mail.gmail.com> <CY4PR21MB0133C759D4A08A4988B641B2B6FC0@CY4PR21MB0133.namprd21.prod.outlook.com> <bdf88936-8edc-d56e-ee59-c9d597058edd@huitema.net> <CY4PR21MB01337C8A700E58B49D90B712B6FC0@CY4PR21MB0133.namprd21.prod.outlook.com> <119b3276-5799-1cc3-8982-7479171bbf27@huitema.net> <CAOYVs2pi8-NVuS+crNMfjsP-n5upK3=5tPeQ8OSGpOvL6RTrjA@mail.gmail.com> <CY4PR21MB0133A1117B2733BBCF049C5FB6FC0@CY4PR21MB0133.namprd21.prod.outlook.com> <CAAZdMad-vEBj4Zw-9=bM8hfSui68YBPTi88ZB434giYMXA1viQ@mail.gmail.com> <MWHPR21MB0144A36781B9AB9BEC7B99A8B6F30@MWHPR21MB0144.namprd21.prod.outlook.com> <CAAZdMaf_okyh1FHemPK90=RQp2Tb-p34SA_C77RLp68bwWSE2Q@mail.gmail.com> <CAN1APdchpj++3K5AcYZk-SMPBRDi3jvo7gjSMQwdYY_NuLNkgQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAAZdMaf-+q+3L9XPBLgDq6qGzVed4NaGOL63DqjGTcSm8g6oBA@mail.gmail.com> <DB6PR10MB176692436653B08C1CA949C2ACF10@DB6PR10MB1766.EURPRD10.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM> <CAN1APddho1==P7x3PV-F2Rj5DJkfzGLx5UqsN4fxOBg-C30RDg@mail.gmail.com> <CY4PR21MB0133D903AD60734920BBC910B6F10@CY4PR21MB0133.namprd21.prod.outlook.com> <CAAZdMaeCoSwCMT3W=8bUPFXjFc8=UcTwa_2_MoKt8FjP0JQtgg@mail.gmail.com> <CANatvzxK-6NcwO2N_F_WX+_q80AAuDmC=YCZze2+tZ4nxq9Nug@mail.gmail.com> <CAN1APdcGrZyjLf+p8UUjTtudrqx_MZwNeQFOG7hCp8wmC5Wc5g@mail.gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
To: Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv@google.com>, Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>
Cc: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>,  Marten Seemann <martenseemann@gmail.com>, huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Maybe I=E2=80=99m missing something (such as exactly how TLS/QUIC maps encr=
yption
headers to packets:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-quic-tls-08#section-5.3

but it appears that the packet number encryption / linkage discussion is
focused entirely on AES-GCM.

The CCM mode which is part of TLS 1.3 has a header of 16 octets that
includes a nonce. This nonce would appear to the packet number.

https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3610

In summary: CCM has the unencrypted form H, LA, A, PA, LM, M, PM, T where H
is a 16 octets header including nonce, LA is a length or the authenticated
data A, LM is the length of the plain text data M, PA and PM is 0-padding
up to block length, and T is tag of up to 16 octets. Some fields optional
depending on first octet (flag) in H. T is computed as a chain of AES
encryptions. Encryption is applied to LM, M, PM, T in CTR mode. (I suppose
there is also padding after A).

CCM is relevant to devices that have AES acceleration but no CLMUL
instruction for GHASH needed by efficient AES-GCM implementations. E.g.
ESP32 microcontrollers:
https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tls/current/msg22495.html

Of course the CCM header could partly or fully be removed if the
authenticated data and encrypted data lengths can be implied otherwise, or
part of it could be encrypted.



On 12 February 2018 at 12.49.38, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen (mikkelf=
j@gmail.com)
wrote:

I can add some more numbers here
https://github.com/openssl/openssl/blob/master/crypto/aes/asm/aesni-x86_64.=
pl

The numbers deducted from Solarflare report is
interesting, however I am not sure if that reflects the ordinary use
of a protocol; my understanding is that HFT is exceptional.

HFT is the extreme case which is why the benchmark is interesting, not
necessarily the use case itself.

The same concern applies to how fast a distributed database can achieve
consensus, which is something I do care about.

On 12 February 2018 at 12.44.01, Kazuho Oku (kazuhooku@gmail.com) wrote:

Victor, Mikkel, thank you for the estimations.

To me it seems that the estimated overhead of 0.1% seems like a
natural number that we would see on production environment, where the
average packet size is not small.

I also agree that it would be worthwhile to look the case where small
packets are exchanged. The numbers deducted from Solarflare report is
interesting, however I am not sure if that reflects the ordinary use
of a protocol; my understanding is that HFT is exceptional.

One benchmark that might give us a more meaningful number is the DNS
benchmark.

https://www.knot-dns.cz/benchmark/ lists a benchmark of several
authoritative DNS servers. The TLD benchmark and the Hosting (10k)
benchmark gives us the rough estimation on how much PPS we can achieve
when exchanging small packets.

The numbers we see on the benchmark is roughly 2M RPS (4M pps) on a 16
core (8x2) Intel Xeon processer running with HP enabled, when the
fastest DNS server is being used.

Running `openssl speed -evp` on a similar CPU gives me the following result=
:

$ /usr/local/openssl-1.1.0/bin/openssl speed -evp aes128
Doing aes-128-cbc for 3s on 16 size blocks: 133387877 aes-128-cbc's in 3.00=
s

This shows that 40M AES block operations can be run on a single core,
per second, which in turn means that a server with 16 cores can
perform 640M AES block operations per second (or 1,280M if HT is
enabled and if AES is not the bottleneck).

To summarize, if DNS had packet encryption, the overhead would be
somewhere from 0.3% to 0.6%.

Considering that, I would anticipate that the overhead of packet
number encryption will be neglible even for short packet workloads.


2018-02-12 16:19 GMT+09:00 Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv@google.com>:
> I have no idea how you get that number (by which I mean, I have a lot of
> guesses, but none of which are solid or useful here). I looked at the
> profiles of various workloads we're running in production, and I estimate
> that none of them would be impacted by PN encryption by worse than 0.1%.
>
> On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 12:12 PM, Praveen Balasubramanian
> <pravb@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>
>> Makes sense. The 1%+ overhead I had quoted was in comparison to full
>> protocol processing all the way from app to NIC. This is with an
unoptimized
>> early QUIC implementation and not fully optimized UDP/IP stack (we have
>> focused much much more on optimizing TCP in the past). After software
stack
>> optimizations, the crypto share of the cost will only keep going up for
>> which we have no technique other than to offload when such support is
>> available in hardware and offload is way more challenging when workload
is
>> hosted in VMs and containers.
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen [mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2018 3:36 AM
>> To: Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv@google.com>
>> Cc: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>; quic@ietf.org; Marten
>> Seemann <martenseemann@gmail.com>; huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
>> Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
>>
>>
>>
>> To put numbers into perspective using Intel 2015 data
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
https://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/improving-openssl-performance#_To=
c416943490
>>
>>
>>
>> A 64 byte message in AES-GCM AEAD in HW would use 1.03 cycles per byte o=
r
>> 66 cycles total, or 22ns on a 3GHz core.
>>
>>
>>
>> For packet numbers we use the CBC encrypt numbers because here AES canno=
t
>> exploit block parallelism.
>>
>> Here we see 4.44 cycles/byte in HW or 71 cycles per block. With a 3GHz
>> setup that would amount to about 24ns overhead for packet encryption.
>>
>>
>>
>> Clearly it makes no sense that AES-GCM is faster than a single AES block
>> encryption, but these are only approximate numbers and CBC mode might
have a
>> little overhead, so we clamp packet numbers to 22ns.
>>
>>
>>
>> Taking the 98ns overhead by the Solarflare report we get a total
>> (simplified) processing time is 98ns non-crypto, 22ns for packet number,
and
>> 22ns for AEAD totalling 142ns. So the packet number encryption overhead
>> would be 22/(98+22)*100% =3D 18%. The numbers ignore other QUIC
bookkeeping,
>> but that can be done in other cores or outside the latency critical
window.
>>
>>
>>
>> This does not take into account that AEAD operation may operate less tha=
n
>> optimal because the packet number must be extracted first. On the other
>> hand, it is also not a disastrous overhead if no good alternative can be
>> found.
>>
>>
>>
>> Earlier AES-NI I=E2=80=99ve seen from Intel doc suggests around 100cycle=
s in HW
>> for a single AES-128 block which would be 33ns per packet number in the
>> above example.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10 February 2018 at 06.18.25, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen
>> (mikkelfj@gmail.com) wrote:
>>
>> 98ns for 68 byte messages
>
>



--
Kazuho Oku

--94eb2c05d0c2aa4a480565b841c4
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">Maybe I=E2=80=99m mi=
ssing something (such as exactly how TLS/QUIC maps encryption headers to pa=
ckets:=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-quic-tls-08#s=
ection-5.3">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-quic-tls-08#section-5.3<=
/a></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;=
font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div=
><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-siz=
e:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">but it appears th=
at the packet number encryption / linkage discussion is focused entirely on=
 AES-GCM.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,=
Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br=
></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;fo=
nt-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">The CCM mod=
e which is part of TLS 1.3 has a header of 16 octets that includes a nonce.=
 This nonce would appear to the packet number.</div><div id=3D"bloop_custom=
font" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,=
1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" st=
yle=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);mar=
gin:0px;line-height:auto"><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3610">h=
ttps://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3610</a></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" st=
yle=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);mar=
gin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"f=
ont-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;=
line-height:auto">In summary: CCM has the unencrypted form H, LA, A, PA, LM=
, M, PM, T where H is a 16 octets header including nonce, LA is a length or=
 the authenticated data A, LM is the length of the plain text data M, PA an=
d PM is 0-padding up to block length, and T is tag of up to 16 octets. Some=
 fields optional depending on first octet (flag) in H. T is computed as a c=
hain of AES encryptions. Encryption is applied to LM, M, PM, T in CTR mode.=
 (I suppose there is also padding after A).</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfon=
t" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0=
);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin=
:0px;line-height:auto">CCM is relevant to devices that have AES acceleratio=
n but no CLMUL instruction for GHASH needed by efficient AES-GCM implementa=
tions. E.g. ESP32 microcontrollers:</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin=
:0px;line-height:auto"><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tls=
/current/msg22495.html">https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tls/current/m=
sg22495.html</a></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Hel=
vetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:au=
to">=C2=A0</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica=
,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">Of=
 course the CCM header could partly or fully be removed if the authenticate=
d data and encrypted data lengths can be implied otherwise, or part of it c=
ould be encrypted.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:H=
elvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:=
auto"><br></div> <div id=3D"bloop_sign_1519215973979565056" class=3D"bloop_=
sign"><div style=3D"font-family:helvetica,arial;font-size:13px"><br></div><=
/div> <br><p class=3D"airmail_on">On 12 February 2018 at 12.49.38, Mikkel F=
ahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen (<a href=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com">mikkelfj@g=
mail.com</a>) wrote:</p> <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq"><span=
><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><div></di=
v><div>




<title></title>



<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
I can add some more numbers here</div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<a href=3D"https://github.com/openssl/openssl/blob/master/crypto/aes/asm/ae=
sni-x86_64.pl">
https://github.com/openssl/openssl/blob/master/crypto/aes/asm/aesni-x86_64.=
pl</a></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<br></div>
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica=
,Arial;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weigh=
t:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transf=
orm:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
The numbers deducted from Solarflare report is=C2=A0<br>
interesting, however I am not sure if that reflects the ordinary
use=C2=A0<br>
of a protocol; my understanding is that HFT is
exceptional.=C2=A0</blockquote>
</div>
<p>HFT is the extreme case which is why the benchmark is
interesting, not necessarily the use case itself.</p>
<p>The same concern applies to how fast a distributed database can
achieve consensus, which is something I do care about.</p>
<br>
<p class=3D"airmail_on">On 12 February 2018 at 12.44.01, Kazuho Oku
(<a href=3D"mailto:kazuhooku@gmail.com">kazuhooku@gmail.com</a>)
wrote:</p>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq">
<div>
<div><span>Victor, Mikkel, thank you for the estimations.<br>
<br>
To me it seems that the estimated overhead of 0.1% seems like
a<br>
natural number that we would see on production environment, where
the<br>
average packet size is not small.<br>
<br>
I also agree that it would be worthwhile to look the case where
small<br>
packets are exchanged. The numbers deducted from Solarflare report
is<br>
interesting, however I am not sure if that reflects the ordinary
use<br>
of a protocol; my understanding is that HFT is exceptional.<br>
<br>
One benchmark that might give us a more meaningful number is the
DNS benchmark.<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"https://www.knot-dns.cz/benchmark/">https://www.knot-dns.cz/benc=
hmark/</a> lists a benchmark of
several<br>
authoritative DNS servers. The TLD benchmark and the Hosting
(10k)<br>
benchmark gives us the rough estimation on how much PPS we can
achieve<br>
when exchanging small packets.<br>
<br>
The numbers we see on the benchmark is roughly 2M RPS (4M pps) on a
16<br>
core (8x2) Intel Xeon processer running with HP enabled, when
the<br>
fastest DNS server is being used.<br>
<br>
Running `openssl speed -evp` on a similar CPU gives me the
following result:<br>
<br>
$ /usr/local/openssl-1.1.0/bin/openssl speed -evp aes128<br>
Doing aes-128-cbc for 3s on 16 size blocks: 133387877 aes-128-cbc&#39;s
in 3.00s<br>
<br>
This shows that 40M AES block operations can be run on a single
core,<br>
per second, which in turn means that a server with 16 cores
can<br>
perform 640M AES block operations per second (or 1,280M if HT
is<br>
enabled and if AES is not the bottleneck).<br>
<br>
To summarize, if DNS had packet encryption, the overhead would
be<br>
somewhere from 0.3% to 0.6%.<br>
<br>
Considering that, I would anticipate that the overhead of
packet<br>
number encryption will be neglible even for short packet
workloads.<br>
<br>
<br>
2018-02-12 16:19 GMT+09:00 Victor Vasiliev
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:vasilvv@google.com">vasilvv@google.com</a>&gt;:<br>
&gt; I have no idea how you get that number (by which I mean, I
have a lot of<br>
&gt; guesses, but none of which are solid or useful here). I looked
at the<br>
&gt; profiles of various workloads we&#39;re running in production, and
I estimate<br>
&gt; that none of them would be impacted by PN encryption by worse
than 0.1%.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 12:12 PM, Praveen
Balasubramanian<br>
&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pravb@microsoft.com">pravb@microsoft.com</a>&gt;=
 wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Makes sense. The 1%+ overhead I had quoted was in
comparison to full<br>
&gt;&gt; protocol processing all the way from app to NIC. This is
with an unoptimized<br>
&gt;&gt; early QUIC implementation and not fully optimized UDP/IP
stack (we have<br>
&gt;&gt; focused much much more on optimizing TCP in the past).
After software stack<br>
&gt;&gt; optimizations, the crypto share of the cost will only keep
going up for<br>
&gt;&gt; which we have no technique other than to offload when such
support is<br>
&gt;&gt; available in hardware and offload is way more challenging
when workload is<br>
&gt;&gt; hosted in VMs and containers.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; From: Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen
[mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com">mikkelfj@gmail.com</a>]<br>
&gt;&gt; Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2018 3:36 AM<br>
&gt;&gt; To: Victor Vasiliev &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:vasilvv@google.com">vasi=
lvv@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Cc: Praveen Balasubramanian &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pravb@microsoft.=
com">pravb@microsoft.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@ietf.org</a>; Marten<br>
&gt;&gt; Seemann &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martenseemann@gmail.com">martenseema=
nn@gmail.com</a>&gt;; huitema
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:huitema@huitema.net">huitema@huitema.net</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Subject: Re: Packet number encryption<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; To put numbers into perspective using Intel 2015
data<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;
<a href=3D"https://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/improving-openssl-perf=
ormance#_Toc416943490">https://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/improving-=
openssl-performance#_Toc416943490</a><br>

&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; A 64 byte message in AES-GCM AEAD in HW would use 1.03
cycles per byte or<br>
&gt;&gt; 66 cycles total, or 22ns on a 3GHz core.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; For packet numbers we use the CBC encrypt numbers because
here AES cannot<br>
&gt;&gt; exploit block parallelism.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Here we see 4.44 cycles/byte in HW or 71 cycles per block.
With a 3GHz<br>
&gt;&gt; setup that would amount to about 24ns overhead for packet
encryption.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Clearly it makes no sense that AES-GCM is faster than a
single AES block<br>
&gt;&gt; encryption, but these are only approximate numbers and CBC
mode might have a<br>
&gt;&gt; little overhead, so we clamp packet numbers to 22ns.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Taking the 98ns overhead by the Solarflare report we get a
total<br>
&gt;&gt; (simplified) processing time is 98ns non-crypto, 22ns for
packet number, and<br>
&gt;&gt; 22ns for AEAD totalling 142ns. So the packet number
encryption overhead<br>
&gt;&gt; would be 22/(98+22)*100% =3D 18%. The numbers ignore other
QUIC bookkeeping,<br>
&gt;&gt; but that can be done in other cores or outside the latency
critical window.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; This does not take into account that AEAD operation may
operate less than<br>
&gt;&gt; optimal because the packet number must be extracted first.
On the other<br>
&gt;&gt; hand, it is also not a disastrous overhead if no good
alternative can be<br>
&gt;&gt; found.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Earlier AES-NI I=E2=80=99ve seen from Intel doc suggests around
100cycles in HW<br>
&gt;&gt; for a single AES-128 block which would be 33ns per packet
number in the<br>
&gt;&gt; above example.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On 10 February 2018 at 06.18.25, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e
J=C3=B8rgensen<br>
&gt;&gt; (<a href=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com">mikkelfj@gmail.com</a>) wro=
te:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; 98ns for 68 byte messages<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
Kazuho Oku<br></span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>


</div></div></span></blockquote></body></html>

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Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
To: Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv@google.com>, Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>
Cc: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>,  Marten Seemann <martenseemann@gmail.com>, huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
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--001a1140f5e6307ff30565b940c3
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I suppose that CCM is not a major concern since the nonce would be computed
from the encrypted packet number and thus not reveal anything surprising.
It does, however, add a fair bit of overhead:

16 bytes of CCM header including nonce and length data. 0 padded
authenticated data so the packet header will consume 16 octets. This
includes the now redundant encrypted packet number. At the is a 0-15 octet
padding which on might be 7.5 octets on average, or 0 if the packet is
filled perfectly, and of course the 16 octet auth tag.

This means that CCM mode will use at least 3x16 octets and addition to
encrypted payload and UDP headers.

It would probably be easy to remove 32 octets of that overhead, but it
would require special adaptation of CCM for QUIC that might not be
worthwhile - as we wait for devices that include GCM hardware support.


Kind Regards,
Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen


On 21 February 2018 at 13.42.12, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen (mikkelf=
j@gmail.com)
wrote:

Maybe I=E2=80=99m missing something (such as exactly how TLS/QUIC maps encr=
yption
headers to packets:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-quic-tls-08#section-5.3

but it appears that the packet number encryption / linkage discussion is
focused entirely on AES-GCM.

The CCM mode which is part of TLS 1.3 has a header of 16 octets that
includes a nonce. This nonce would appear to the packet number.

https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3610

In summary: CCM has the unencrypted form H, LA, A, PA, LM, M, PM, T where H
is a 16 octets header including nonce, LA is a length or the authenticated
data A, LM is the length of the plain text data M, PA and PM is 0-padding
up to block length, and T is tag of up to 16 octets. Some fields optional
depending on first octet (flag) in H. T is computed as a chain of AES
encryptions. Encryption is applied to LM, M, PM, T in CTR mode. (I suppose
there is also padding after A).

CCM is relevant to devices that have AES acceleration but no CLMUL
instruction for GHASH needed by efficient AES-GCM implementations. E.g.
ESP32 microcontrollers:
https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tls/current/msg22495.html

Of course the CCM header could partly or fully be removed if the
authenticated data and encrypted data lengths can be implied otherwise, or
part of it could be encrypted.



On 12 February 2018 at 12.49.38, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen (mikkelf=
j@gmail.com)
wrote:

I can add some more numbers here
https://github.com/openssl/openssl/blob/master/crypto/aes/asm/aesni-x86_64.=
pl

The numbers deducted from Solarflare report is
interesting, however I am not sure if that reflects the ordinary use
of a protocol; my understanding is that HFT is exceptional.

HFT is the extreme case which is why the benchmark is interesting, not
necessarily the use case itself.

The same concern applies to how fast a distributed database can achieve
consensus, which is something I do care about.

On 12 February 2018 at 12.44.01, Kazuho Oku (kazuhooku@gmail.com) wrote:

Victor, Mikkel, thank you for the estimations.

To me it seems that the estimated overhead of 0.1% seems like a
natural number that we would see on production environment, where the
average packet size is not small.

I also agree that it would be worthwhile to look the case where small
packets are exchanged. The numbers deducted from Solarflare report is
interesting, however I am not sure if that reflects the ordinary use
of a protocol; my understanding is that HFT is exceptional.

One benchmark that might give us a more meaningful number is the DNS
benchmark.

https://www.knot-dns.cz/benchmark/ lists a benchmark of several
authoritative DNS servers. The TLD benchmark and the Hosting (10k)
benchmark gives us the rough estimation on how much PPS we can achieve
when exchanging small packets.

The numbers we see on the benchmark is roughly 2M RPS (4M pps) on a 16
core (8x2) Intel Xeon processer running with HP enabled, when the
fastest DNS server is being used.

Running `openssl speed -evp` on a similar CPU gives me the following result=
:

$ /usr/local/openssl-1.1.0/bin/openssl speed -evp aes128
Doing aes-128-cbc for 3s on 16 size blocks: 133387877 aes-128-cbc's in 3.00=
s

This shows that 40M AES block operations can be run on a single core,
per second, which in turn means that a server with 16 cores can
perform 640M AES block operations per second (or 1,280M if HT is
enabled and if AES is not the bottleneck).

To summarize, if DNS had packet encryption, the overhead would be
somewhere from 0.3% to 0.6%.

Considering that, I would anticipate that the overhead of packet
number encryption will be neglible even for short packet workloads.


2018-02-12 16:19 GMT+09:00 Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv@google.com>:
> I have no idea how you get that number (by which I mean, I have a lot of
> guesses, but none of which are solid or useful here). I looked at the
> profiles of various workloads we're running in production, and I estimate
> that none of them would be impacted by PN encryption by worse than 0.1%.
>
> On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 12:12 PM, Praveen Balasubramanian
> <pravb@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>
>> Makes sense. The 1%+ overhead I had quoted was in comparison to full
>> protocol processing all the way from app to NIC. This is with an
unoptimized
>> early QUIC implementation and not fully optimized UDP/IP stack (we have
>> focused much much more on optimizing TCP in the past). After software
stack
>> optimizations, the crypto share of the cost will only keep going up for
>> which we have no technique other than to offload when such support is
>> available in hardware and offload is way more challenging when workload
is
>> hosted in VMs and containers.
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen [mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2018 3:36 AM
>> To: Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv@google.com>
>> Cc: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>; quic@ietf.org; Marten
>> Seemann <martenseemann@gmail.com>; huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
>> Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
>>
>>
>>
>> To put numbers into perspective using Intel 2015 data
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
https://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/improving-openssl-performance#_To=
c416943490
>>
>>
>>
>> A 64 byte message in AES-GCM AEAD in HW would use 1.03 cycles per byte o=
r
>> 66 cycles total, or 22ns on a 3GHz core.
>>
>>
>>
>> For packet numbers we use the CBC encrypt numbers because here AES canno=
t
>> exploit block parallelism.
>>
>> Here we see 4.44 cycles/byte in HW or 71 cycles per block. With a 3GHz
>> setup that would amount to about 24ns overhead for packet encryption.
>>
>>
>>
>> Clearly it makes no sense that AES-GCM is faster than a single AES block
>> encryption, but these are only approximate numbers and CBC mode might
have a
>> little overhead, so we clamp packet numbers to 22ns.
>>
>>
>>
>> Taking the 98ns overhead by the Solarflare report we get a total
>> (simplified) processing time is 98ns non-crypto, 22ns for packet number,
and
>> 22ns for AEAD totalling 142ns. So the packet number encryption overhead
>> would be 22/(98+22)*100% =3D 18%. The numbers ignore other QUIC
bookkeeping,
>> but that can be done in other cores or outside the latency critical
window.
>>
>>
>>
>> This does not take into account that AEAD operation may operate less tha=
n
>> optimal because the packet number must be extracted first. On the other
>> hand, it is also not a disastrous overhead if no good alternative can be
>> found.
>>
>>
>>
>> Earlier AES-NI I=E2=80=99ve seen from Intel doc suggests around 100cycle=
s in HW
>> for a single AES-128 block which would be 33ns per packet number in the
>> above example.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10 February 2018 at 06.18.25, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen
>> (mikkelfj@gmail.com) wrote:
>>
>> 98ns for 68 byte messages
>
>



--
Kazuho Oku

--001a1140f5e6307ff30565b940c3
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">I suppose that CCM i=
s not a major concern since the nonce would be computed from the encrypted =
packet number and thus not reveal anything surprising. It does, however, ad=
d a fair bit of overhead:</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-f=
amily:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-=
height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:He=
lvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:a=
uto">16 bytes of CCM header including nonce and length data. 0 padded authe=
nticated data so the packet header will consume 16 octets. This includes th=
e now redundant encrypted packet number. At the is a 0-15 octet padding whi=
ch on might be 7.5 octets on average, or 0 if the packet is filled perfectl=
y, and of course the 16 octet auth tag.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" s=
tyle=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);ma=
rgin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"=
font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px=
;line-height:auto">This means that CCM mode will use at least 3x16 octets a=
nd addition to encrypted payload and UDP headers.</div><div id=3D"bloop_cus=
tomfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0=
,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont"=
 style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);=
margin:0px;line-height:auto">It would probably be easy to remove 32 octets =
of that overhead, but it would require special adaptation of CCM for QUIC t=
hat might not be worthwhile - as we wait for devices that include GCM hardw=
are support.</div> <div><br></div><br> <div id=3D"bloop_sign_15192207359974=
04928" class=3D"bloop_sign"><div style=3D"font-family:helvetica,arial;font-=
size:13px">Kind Regards,</div><div style=3D"font-family:helvetica,arial;fon=
t-size:13px">Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen<br><br></div></div> <br><p c=
lass=3D"airmail_on">On 21 February 2018 at 13.42.12, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=
=C3=B8rgensen (<a href=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com">mikkelfj@gmail.com</a>=
) wrote:</p> <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq"><span><div style=
=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><div></div><div>




<title></title>



<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
Maybe I=E2=80=99m missing something (such as exactly how TLS/QUIC maps
encryption headers to packets:=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/=
draft-ietf-quic-tls-08#section-5.3">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-=
quic-tls-08#section-5.3</a></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<br></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
but it appears that the packet number encryption / linkage
discussion is focused entirely on AES-GCM.</div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<br></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
The CCM mode which is part of TLS 1.3 has a header of 16 octets
that includes a nonce. This nonce would appear to the packet
number.</div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<br></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3610">https://tools.ietf.org/html=
/rfc3610</a></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<br></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
In summary: CCM has the unencrypted form H, LA, A, PA, LM, M, PM, T
where H is a 16 octets header including nonce, LA is a length or
the authenticated data A, LM is the length of the plain text data
M, PA and PM is 0-padding up to block length, and T is tag of up to
16 octets. Some fields optional depending on first octet (flag) in
H. T is computed as a chain of AES encryptions. Encryption is
applied to LM, M, PM, T in CTR mode. (I suppose there is also
padding after A).</div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<br></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
CCM is relevant to devices that have AES acceleration but no CLMUL
instruction for GHASH needed by efficient AES-GCM implementations.
E.g. ESP32 microcontrollers:</div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tls/current/msg22495.html"=
>https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tls/current/msg22495.html</a></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
=C2=A0</div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
Of course the CCM header could partly or fully be removed if the
authenticated data and encrypted data lengths can be implied
otherwise, or part of it could be encrypted.</div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<br></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_sign_1519215973979565056" class=3D"bloop_sign">
<div style=3D"font-family:helvetica,arial;font-size:13px">
<br></div>
</div>
<br>
<p class=3D"airmail_on">On 12 February 2018 at 12.49.38, Mikkel
Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen (<a href=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com">mikkelfj@=
gmail.com</a>) wrote:</p>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
<div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<span>I can add some more numbers here</span></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<span><a href=3D"https://github.com/openssl/openssl/blob/master/crypto/aes/=
asm/aesni-x86_64.pl">
https://github.com/openssl/openssl/blob/master/crypto/aes/asm/aesni-x86_64.=
pl</a></span></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<span><br></span></div>
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica=
,Arial;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weigh=
t:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transf=
orm:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<span>The numbers deducted from Solarflare report is=C2=A0<br>
interesting, however I am not sure if that reflects the ordinary
use=C2=A0<br>
of a protocol; my understanding is that HFT is
exceptional.=C2=A0</span></blockquote>
</div>
<p><span>HFT is the extreme case which is why the benchmark is
interesting, not necessarily the use case itself.</span></p>
<p><span>The same concern applies to how fast a distributed
database can achieve consensus, which is something I do care
about.</span></p>
<span><br></span>
<p class=3D"airmail_on"><span>On 12 February 2018 at 12.44.01, Kazuho
Oku (<a href=3D"mailto:kazuhooku@gmail.com">kazuhooku@gmail.com</a>)
wrote:</span></p>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq">
<div>
<div><span><span>Victor, Mikkel, thank you for the
estimations.<br>
<br>
To me it seems that the estimated overhead of 0.1% seems like
a<br>
natural number that we would see on production environment, where
the<br>
average packet size is not small.<br>
<br>
I also agree that it would be worthwhile to look the case where
small<br>
packets are exchanged. The numbers deducted from Solarflare report
is<br>
interesting, however I am not sure if that reflects the ordinary
use<br>
of a protocol; my understanding is that HFT is exceptional.<br>
<br>
One benchmark that might give us a more meaningful number is the
DNS benchmark.<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"https://www.knot-dns.cz/benchmark/">https://www.knot-dns.cz/benc=
hmark/</a> lists a benchmark of
several<br>
authoritative DNS servers. The TLD benchmark and the Hosting
(10k)<br>
benchmark gives us the rough estimation on how much PPS we can
achieve<br>
when exchanging small packets.<br>
<br>
The numbers we see on the benchmark is roughly 2M RPS (4M pps) on a
16<br>
core (8x2) Intel Xeon processer running with HP enabled, when
the<br>
fastest DNS server is being used.<br>
<br>
Running `openssl speed -evp` on a similar CPU gives me the
following result:<br>
<br>
$ /usr/local/openssl-1.1.0/bin/openssl speed -evp aes128<br>
Doing aes-128-cbc for 3s on 16 size blocks: 133387877 aes-128-cbc&#39;s
in 3.00s<br>
<br>
This shows that 40M AES block operations can be run on a single
core,<br>
per second, which in turn means that a server with 16 cores
can<br>
perform 640M AES block operations per second (or 1,280M if HT
is<br>
enabled and if AES is not the bottleneck).<br>
<br>
To summarize, if DNS had packet encryption, the overhead would
be<br>
somewhere from 0.3% to 0.6%.<br>
<br>
Considering that, I would anticipate that the overhead of
packet<br>
number encryption will be neglible even for short packet
workloads.<br>
<br>
<br>
2018-02-12 16:19 GMT+09:00 Victor Vasiliev
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:vasilvv@google.com">vasilvv@google.com</a>&gt;:<br>
&gt; I have no idea how you get that number (by which I mean, I
have a lot of<br>
&gt; guesses, but none of which are solid or useful here). I looked
at the<br>
&gt; profiles of various workloads we&#39;re running in production, and
I estimate<br>
&gt; that none of them would be impacted by PN encryption by worse
than 0.1%.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 12:12 PM, Praveen
Balasubramanian<br>
&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pravb@microsoft.com">pravb@microsoft.com</a>&gt;=
 wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Makes sense. The 1%+ overhead I had quoted was in
comparison to full<br>
&gt;&gt; protocol processing all the way from app to NIC. This is
with an unoptimized<br>
&gt;&gt; early QUIC implementation and not fully optimized UDP/IP
stack (we have<br>
&gt;&gt; focused much much more on optimizing TCP in the past).
After software stack<br>
&gt;&gt; optimizations, the crypto share of the cost will only keep
going up for<br>
&gt;&gt; which we have no technique other than to offload when such
support is<br>
&gt;&gt; available in hardware and offload is way more challenging
when workload is<br>
&gt;&gt; hosted in VMs and containers.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; From: Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen
[mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com">mikkelfj@gmail.com</a>]<br>
&gt;&gt; Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2018 3:36 AM<br>
&gt;&gt; To: Victor Vasiliev &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:vasilvv@google.com">vasi=
lvv@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Cc: Praveen Balasubramanian &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pravb@microsoft.=
com">pravb@microsoft.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@ietf.org</a>; Marten<br>
&gt;&gt; Seemann &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martenseemann@gmail.com">martenseema=
nn@gmail.com</a>&gt;; huitema
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:huitema@huitema.net">huitema@huitema.net</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Subject: Re: Packet number encryption<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; To put numbers into perspective using Intel 2015
data<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;
<a href=3D"https://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/improving-openssl-perf=
ormance#_Toc416943490">https://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/improving-=
openssl-performance#_Toc416943490</a><br>

&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; A 64 byte message in AES-GCM AEAD in HW would use 1.03
cycles per byte or<br>
&gt;&gt; 66 cycles total, or 22ns on a 3GHz core.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; For packet numbers we use the CBC encrypt numbers because
here AES cannot<br>
&gt;&gt; exploit block parallelism.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Here we see 4.44 cycles/byte in HW or 71 cycles per block.
With a 3GHz<br>
&gt;&gt; setup that would amount to about 24ns overhead for packet
encryption.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Clearly it makes no sense that AES-GCM is faster than a
single AES block<br>
&gt;&gt; encryption, but these are only approximate numbers and CBC
mode might have a<br>
&gt;&gt; little overhead, so we clamp packet numbers to 22ns.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Taking the 98ns overhead by the Solarflare report we get a
total<br>
&gt;&gt; (simplified) processing time is 98ns non-crypto, 22ns for
packet number, and<br>
&gt;&gt; 22ns for AEAD totalling 142ns. So the packet number
encryption overhead<br>
&gt;&gt; would be 22/(98+22)*100% =3D 18%. The numbers ignore other
QUIC bookkeeping,<br>
&gt;&gt; but that can be done in other cores or outside the latency
critical window.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; This does not take into account that AEAD operation may
operate less than<br>
&gt;&gt; optimal because the packet number must be extracted first.
On the other<br>
&gt;&gt; hand, it is also not a disastrous overhead if no good
alternative can be<br>
&gt;&gt; found.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Earlier AES-NI I=E2=80=99ve seen from Intel doc suggests around
100cycles in HW<br>
&gt;&gt; for a single AES-128 block which would be 33ns per packet
number in the<br>
&gt;&gt; above example.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On 10 February 2018 at 06.18.25, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e
J=C3=B8rgensen<br>
&gt;&gt; (<a href=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com">mikkelfj@gmail.com</a>) wro=
te:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; 98ns for 68 byte messages<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
Kazuho Oku<br></span></span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>


</div></div></span></blockquote></body></html>

--001a1140f5e6307ff30565b940c3--


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Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
To: Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv@google.com>, Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>
Cc: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>,  Marten Seemann <martenseemann@gmail.com>, huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
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If the encrypted packet number is truncated, e.g. wrapping after 4 octets,
it would not be possible to use the encrypted packet number as a nonce
unless it is acceptable to use that octets that follow, which could be hard
to justify. The alternative is to either a) have full length packet
numbers, b) renegotiate keys before wrap, c) drop the CCM header and
compute it based on the decrypted packet number - which saves space as
discussed below, but which also interferes with plain TLS CCM operation.

As I have argued before, it might be simpler to simply have a 32-bit
sequential counter and restrict it to a single path, then user the upper
implicit bits for a path identifier (segmented packet numbers). In this
case there is no encryption overhead and the CCM nonce is trivially
available. The only remaining question is if the packet number should be
redundant in both the QUIC header and the CCM header. This could further be
generalised by moving the packet number out of the QUIC and into an AEAD
specific header field - but that of course impacts monitoring and
ossification.

Kind Regards,
Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen


On 21 February 2018 at 14.53.23, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen (mikkelf=
j@gmail.com)
wrote:

I suppose that CCM is not a major concern since the nonce would be computed
from the encrypted packet number and thus not reveal anything surprising.
It does, however, add a fair bit of overhead:

16 bytes of CCM header including nonce and length data. 0 padded
authenticated data so the packet header will consume 16 octets. This
includes the now redundant encrypted packet number. At the is a 0-15 octet
padding which on might be 7.5 octets on average, or 0 if the packet is
filled perfectly, and of course the 16 octet auth tag.

This means that CCM mode will use at least 3x16 octets and addition to
encrypted payload and UDP headers.

It would probably be easy to remove 32 octets of that overhead, but it
would require special adaptation of CCM for QUIC that might not be
worthwhile - as we wait for devices that include GCM hardware support.


Kind Regards,
Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen


On 21 February 2018 at 13.42.12, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen (mikkelf=
j@gmail.com)
wrote:

Maybe I=E2=80=99m missing something (such as exactly how TLS/QUIC maps encr=
yption
headers to packets:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-quic-tls-08#section-5.3

but it appears that the packet number encryption / linkage discussion is
focused entirely on AES-GCM.

The CCM mode which is part of TLS 1.3 has a header of 16 octets that
includes a nonce. This nonce would appear to the packet number.

https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3610

In summary: CCM has the unencrypted form H, LA, A, PA, LM, M, PM, T where H
is a 16 octets header including nonce, LA is a length or the authenticated
data A, LM is the length of the plain text data M, PA and PM is 0-padding
up to block length, and T is tag of up to 16 octets. Some fields optional
depending on first octet (flag) in H. T is computed as a chain of AES
encryptions. Encryption is applied to LM, M, PM, T in CTR mode. (I suppose
there is also padding after A).

CCM is relevant to devices that have AES acceleration but no CLMUL
instruction for GHASH needed by efficient AES-GCM implementations. E.g.
ESP32 microcontrollers:
https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tls/current/msg22495.html

Of course the CCM header could partly or fully be removed if the
authenticated data and encrypted data lengths can be implied otherwise, or
part of it could be encrypted.



On 12 February 2018 at 12.49.38, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen (mikkelf=
j@gmail.com)
wrote:

I can add some more numbers here
https://github.com/openssl/openssl/blob/master/crypto/aes/asm/aesni-x86_64.=
pl

The numbers deducted from Solarflare report is
interesting, however I am not sure if that reflects the ordinary use
of a protocol; my understanding is that HFT is exceptional.

HFT is the extreme case which is why the benchmark is interesting, not
necessarily the use case itself.

The same concern applies to how fast a distributed database can achieve
consensus, which is something I do care about.

On 12 February 2018 at 12.44.01, Kazuho Oku (kazuhooku@gmail.com) wrote:

Victor, Mikkel, thank you for the estimations.

To me it seems that the estimated overhead of 0.1% seems like a
natural number that we would see on production environment, where the
average packet size is not small.

I also agree that it would be worthwhile to look the case where small
packets are exchanged. The numbers deducted from Solarflare report is
interesting, however I am not sure if that reflects the ordinary use
of a protocol; my understanding is that HFT is exceptional.

One benchmark that might give us a more meaningful number is the DNS
benchmark.

https://www.knot-dns.cz/benchmark/ lists a benchmark of several
authoritative DNS servers. The TLD benchmark and the Hosting (10k)
benchmark gives us the rough estimation on how much PPS we can achieve
when exchanging small packets.

The numbers we see on the benchmark is roughly 2M RPS (4M pps) on a 16
core (8x2) Intel Xeon processer running with HP enabled, when the
fastest DNS server is being used.

Running `openssl speed -evp` on a similar CPU gives me the following result=
:

$ /usr/local/openssl-1.1.0/bin/openssl speed -evp aes128
Doing aes-128-cbc for 3s on 16 size blocks: 133387877 aes-128-cbc's in 3.00=
s

This shows that 40M AES block operations can be run on a single core,
per second, which in turn means that a server with 16 cores can
perform 640M AES block operations per second (or 1,280M if HT is
enabled and if AES is not the bottleneck).

To summarize, if DNS had packet encryption, the overhead would be
somewhere from 0.3% to 0.6%.

Considering that, I would anticipate that the overhead of packet
number encryption will be neglible even for short packet workloads.


2018-02-12 16:19 GMT+09:00 Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv@google.com>:
> I have no idea how you get that number (by which I mean, I have a lot of
> guesses, but none of which are solid or useful here). I looked at the
> profiles of various workloads we're running in production, and I estimate
> that none of them would be impacted by PN encryption by worse than 0.1%.
>
> On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 12:12 PM, Praveen Balasubramanian
> <pravb@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>
>> Makes sense. The 1%+ overhead I had quoted was in comparison to full
>> protocol processing all the way from app to NIC. This is with an
unoptimized
>> early QUIC implementation and not fully optimized UDP/IP stack (we have
>> focused much much more on optimizing TCP in the past). After software
stack
>> optimizations, the crypto share of the cost will only keep going up for
>> which we have no technique other than to offload when such support is
>> available in hardware and offload is way more challenging when workload
is
>> hosted in VMs and containers.
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen [mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2018 3:36 AM
>> To: Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv@google.com>
>> Cc: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>; quic@ietf.org; Marten
>> Seemann <martenseemann@gmail.com>; huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
>> Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
>>
>>
>>
>> To put numbers into perspective using Intel 2015 data
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
https://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/improving-openssl-performance#_To=
c416943490
>>
>>
>>
>> A 64 byte message in AES-GCM AEAD in HW would use 1.03 cycles per byte o=
r
>> 66 cycles total, or 22ns on a 3GHz core.
>>
>>
>>
>> For packet numbers we use the CBC encrypt numbers because here AES canno=
t
>> exploit block parallelism.
>>
>> Here we see 4.44 cycles/byte in HW or 71 cycles per block. With a 3GHz
>> setup that would amount to about 24ns overhead for packet encryption.
>>
>>
>>
>> Clearly it makes no sense that AES-GCM is faster than a single AES block
>> encryption, but these are only approximate numbers and CBC mode might
have a
>> little overhead, so we clamp packet numbers to 22ns.
>>
>>
>>
>> Taking the 98ns overhead by the Solarflare report we get a total
>> (simplified) processing time is 98ns non-crypto, 22ns for packet number,
and
>> 22ns for AEAD totalling 142ns. So the packet number encryption overhead
>> would be 22/(98+22)*100% =3D 18%. The numbers ignore other QUIC
bookkeeping,
>> but that can be done in other cores or outside the latency critical
window.
>>
>>
>>
>> This does not take into account that AEAD operation may operate less tha=
n
>> optimal because the packet number must be extracted first. On the other
>> hand, it is also not a disastrous overhead if no good alternative can be
>> found.
>>
>>
>>
>> Earlier AES-NI I=E2=80=99ve seen from Intel doc suggests around 100cycle=
s in HW
>> for a single AES-128 block which would be 33ns per packet number in the
>> above example.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10 February 2018 at 06.18.25, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen
>> (mikkelfj@gmail.com) wrote:
>>
>> 98ns for 68 byte messages
>
>



--
Kazuho Oku

--001a11c149140118590565b9791d
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">If the encrypted pac=
ket number is truncated, e.g. wrapping after 4 octets, it would not be poss=
ible to use the encrypted packet number as a nonce unless it is acceptable =
to use that octets that follow, which could be hard to justify. The alterna=
tive is to either a) have full length packet numbers, b) renegotiate keys b=
efore wrap, c) drop the CCM header and compute it based on the decrypted pa=
cket number - which saves space as discussed below, but which also interfer=
es with plain TLS CCM operation.</div> <div><br></div><div>As I have argued=
 before, it might be simpler to simply have a 32-bit sequential counter and=
 restrict it to a single path, then user the upper implicit bits for a path=
 identifier (segmented packet numbers). In this case there is no encryption=
 overhead and the CCM nonce is trivially available. The only remaining ques=
tion is if the packet number should be redundant in both the QUIC header an=
d the CCM header. This could further be generalised by moving the packet nu=
mber out of the QUIC and into an AEAD specific header field - but that of c=
ourse impacts monitoring and ossification.</div><br> <div id=3D"bloop_sign_=
1519221647518923008" class=3D"bloop_sign"><div style=3D"font-family:helveti=
ca,arial;font-size:13px">Kind Regards,</div><div style=3D"font-family:helve=
tica,arial;font-size:13px">Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen<br><br></div><=
/div> <br><p class=3D"airmail_on">On 21 February 2018 at 14.53.23, Mikkel F=
ahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen (<a href=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com">mikkelfj@g=
mail.com</a>) wrote:</p> <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq"><span=
><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><div></di=
v><div>




<title></title>



<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
I suppose that CCM is not a major concern since the nonce would be
computed from the encrypted packet number and thus not reveal
anything surprising. It does, however, add a fair bit of
overhead:</div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<br></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
16 bytes of CCM header including nonce and length data. 0 padded
authenticated data so the packet header will consume 16 octets.
This includes the now redundant encrypted packet number. At the is
a 0-15 octet padding which on might be 7.5 octets on average, or 0
if the packet is filled perfectly, and of course the 16 octet auth
tag.</div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<br></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
This means that CCM mode will use at least 3x16 octets and addition
to encrypted payload and UDP headers.</div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<br></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
It would probably be easy to remove 32 octets of that overhead, but
it would require special adaptation of CCM for QUIC that might not
be worthwhile - as we wait for devices that include GCM hardware
support.</div>
<div><br></div>
<br>
<div id=3D"bloop_sign_1519220735997404928" class=3D"bloop_sign">
<div style=3D"font-family:helvetica,arial;font-size:13px">Kind
Regards,</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:helvetica,arial;font-size:13px">Mikkel
Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen<br>
<br></div>
</div>
<br>
<p class=3D"airmail_on">On 21 February 2018 at 13.42.12, Mikkel
Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen (<a href=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com">mikkelfj@=
gmail.com</a>) wrote:</p>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
<div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<span>Maybe I=E2=80=99m missing something (such as exactly how TLS/QUIC
maps encryption headers to packets:=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/=
html/draft-ietf-quic-tls-08#section-5.3">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-=
ietf-quic-tls-08#section-5.3</a></span></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<span><br></span></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<span>but it appears that the packet number encryption / linkage
discussion is focused entirely on AES-GCM.</span></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<span><br></span></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<span>The CCM mode which is part of TLS 1.3 has a header of 16
octets that includes a nonce. This nonce would appear to the packet
number.</span></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<span><br></span></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<span><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3610">https://tools.ietf.or=
g/html/rfc3610</a></span></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<span><br></span></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<span>In summary: CCM has the unencrypted form H, LA, A, PA, LM, M,
PM, T where H is a 16 octets header including nonce, LA is a length
or the authenticated data A, LM is the length of the plain text
data M, PA and PM is 0-padding up to block length, and T is tag of
up to 16 octets. Some fields optional depending on first octet
(flag) in H. T is computed as a chain of AES encryptions.
Encryption is applied to LM, M, PM, T in CTR mode. (I suppose there
is also padding after A).</span></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<span><br></span></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<span>CCM is relevant to devices that have AES acceleration but no
CLMUL instruction for GHASH needed by efficient AES-GCM
implementations. E.g. ESP32 microcontrollers:</span></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<span><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tls/current/msg22495=
.html">https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tls/current/msg22495.html</a><=
/span></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<span>=C2=A0</span></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<span>Of course the CCM header could partly or fully be removed if
the authenticated data and encrypted data lengths can be implied
otherwise, or part of it could be encrypted.</span></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<span><br></span></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_sign_1519215973979565056" class=3D"bloop_sign">
<div style=3D"font-family:helvetica,arial;font-size:13px">
<span><br></span></div>
</div>
<span><br></span>
<p class=3D"airmail_on"><span>On 12 February 2018 at 12.49.38, Mikkel
Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen (<a href=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com">mikkelfj@=
gmail.com</a>)
wrote:</span></p>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
<div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<span><span>I can add some more numbers here</span></span></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<span><a href=3D"https://github.com/openssl/openssl/blob/master/crypto/aes/=
asm/aesni-x86_64.pl">
https://github.com/openssl/openssl/blob/master/crypto/aes/asm/aesni-x86_64.=
pl</a></span></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<span><br></span></div>
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica=
,Arial;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weigh=
t:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transf=
orm:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<span>The numbers deducted from Solarflare report is=C2=A0<br>
interesting, however I am not sure if that reflects the ordinary
use=C2=A0<br>
of a protocol; my understanding is that HFT is
exceptional.=C2=A0</span></blockquote>
</div>
<p><span>HFT is the extreme case which is why the benchmark is
interesting, not necessarily the use case itself.</span></p>
<p><span>The same concern applies to how fast a distributed
database can achieve consensus, which is something I do care
about.</span></p>
<span><br></span>
<p class=3D"airmail_on"><span>On 12 February 2018 at 12.44.01, Kazuho
Oku (<a href=3D"mailto:kazuhooku@gmail.com">kazuhooku@gmail.com</a>)
wrote:</span></p>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq">
<div>
<div><span><span>Victor, Mikkel, thank you for the
estimations.<br>
<br>
To me it seems that the estimated overhead of 0.1% seems like
a<br>
natural number that we would see on production environment, where
the<br>
average packet size is not small.<br>
<br>
I also agree that it would be worthwhile to look the case where
small<br>
packets are exchanged. The numbers deducted from Solarflare report
is<br>
interesting, however I am not sure if that reflects the ordinary
use<br>
of a protocol; my understanding is that HFT is exceptional.<br>
<br>
One benchmark that might give us a more meaningful number is the
DNS benchmark.<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"https://www.knot-dns.cz/benchmark/">https://www.knot-dns.cz/benc=
hmark/</a> lists a benchmark of
several<br>
authoritative DNS servers. The TLD benchmark and the Hosting
(10k)<br>
benchmark gives us the rough estimation on how much PPS we can
achieve<br>
when exchanging small packets.<br>
<br>
The numbers we see on the benchmark is roughly 2M RPS (4M pps) on a
16<br>
core (8x2) Intel Xeon processer running with HP enabled, when
the<br>
fastest DNS server is being used.<br>
<br>
Running `openssl speed -evp` on a similar CPU gives me the
following result:<br>
<br>
$ /usr/local/openssl-1.1.0/bin/openssl speed -evp aes128<br>
Doing aes-128-cbc for 3s on 16 size blocks: 133387877 aes-128-cbc&#39;s
in 3.00s<br>
<br>
This shows that 40M AES block operations can be run on a single
core,<br>
per second, which in turn means that a server with 16 cores
can<br>
perform 640M AES block operations per second (or 1,280M if HT
is<br>
enabled and if AES is not the bottleneck).<br>
<br>
To summarize, if DNS had packet encryption, the overhead would
be<br>
somewhere from 0.3% to 0.6%.<br>
<br>
Considering that, I would anticipate that the overhead of
packet<br>
number encryption will be neglible even for short packet
workloads.<br>
<br>
<br>
2018-02-12 16:19 GMT+09:00 Victor Vasiliev
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:vasilvv@google.com">vasilvv@google.com</a>&gt;:<br>
&gt; I have no idea how you get that number (by which I mean, I
have a lot of<br>
&gt; guesses, but none of which are solid or useful here). I looked
at the<br>
&gt; profiles of various workloads we&#39;re running in production, and
I estimate<br>
&gt; that none of them would be impacted by PN encryption by worse
than 0.1%.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 12:12 PM, Praveen
Balasubramanian<br>
&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pravb@microsoft.com">pravb@microsoft.com</a>&gt;=
 wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Makes sense. The 1%+ overhead I had quoted was in
comparison to full<br>
&gt;&gt; protocol processing all the way from app to NIC. This is
with an unoptimized<br>
&gt;&gt; early QUIC implementation and not fully optimized UDP/IP
stack (we have<br>
&gt;&gt; focused much much more on optimizing TCP in the past).
After software stack<br>
&gt;&gt; optimizations, the crypto share of the cost will only keep
going up for<br>
&gt;&gt; which we have no technique other than to offload when such
support is<br>
&gt;&gt; available in hardware and offload is way more challenging
when workload is<br>
&gt;&gt; hosted in VMs and containers.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; From: Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen
[mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com">mikkelfj@gmail.com</a>]<br>
&gt;&gt; Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2018 3:36 AM<br>
&gt;&gt; To: Victor Vasiliev &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:vasilvv@google.com">vasi=
lvv@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Cc: Praveen Balasubramanian &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pravb@microsoft.=
com">pravb@microsoft.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@ietf.org</a>; Marten<br>
&gt;&gt; Seemann &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martenseemann@gmail.com">martenseema=
nn@gmail.com</a>&gt;; huitema
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:huitema@huitema.net">huitema@huitema.net</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Subject: Re: Packet number encryption<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; To put numbers into perspective using Intel 2015
data<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;
<a href=3D"https://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/improving-openssl-perf=
ormance#_Toc416943490">https://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/improving-=
openssl-performance#_Toc416943490</a><br>

&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; A 64 byte message in AES-GCM AEAD in HW would use 1.03
cycles per byte or<br>
&gt;&gt; 66 cycles total, or 22ns on a 3GHz core.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; For packet numbers we use the CBC encrypt numbers because
here AES cannot<br>
&gt;&gt; exploit block parallelism.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Here we see 4.44 cycles/byte in HW or 71 cycles per block.
With a 3GHz<br>
&gt;&gt; setup that would amount to about 24ns overhead for packet
encryption.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Clearly it makes no sense that AES-GCM is faster than a
single AES block<br>
&gt;&gt; encryption, but these are only approximate numbers and CBC
mode might have a<br>
&gt;&gt; little overhead, so we clamp packet numbers to 22ns.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Taking the 98ns overhead by the Solarflare report we get a
total<br>
&gt;&gt; (simplified) processing time is 98ns non-crypto, 22ns for
packet number, and<br>
&gt;&gt; 22ns for AEAD totalling 142ns. So the packet number
encryption overhead<br>
&gt;&gt; would be 22/(98+22)*100% =3D 18%. The numbers ignore other
QUIC bookkeeping,<br>
&gt;&gt; but that can be done in other cores or outside the latency
critical window.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; This does not take into account that AEAD operation may
operate less than<br>
&gt;&gt; optimal because the packet number must be extracted first.
On the other<br>
&gt;&gt; hand, it is also not a disastrous overhead if no good
alternative can be<br>
&gt;&gt; found.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Earlier AES-NI I=E2=80=99ve seen from Intel doc suggests around
100cycles in HW<br>
&gt;&gt; for a single AES-128 block which would be 33ns per packet
number in the<br>
&gt;&gt; above example.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On 10 February 2018 at 06.18.25, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e
J=C3=B8rgensen<br>
&gt;&gt; (<a href=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com">mikkelfj@gmail.com</a>) wro=
te:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; 98ns for 68 byte messages<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
Kazuho Oku<br></span></span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>


</div></div></span></blockquote></body></html>

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Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
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Cc: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>,  Marten Seemann <martenseemann@gmail.com>, huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
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Sorry for the mail flux,
but using encrypted packet numbers as nonce would not even be possible with
the current proposal, because the nonce must be known before the packet
number is encrypted.



On 21 February 2018 at 15.09.16, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen (mikkelf=
j@gmail.com)
wrote:

If the encrypted packet number is truncated, e.g. wrapping after 4 octets,
it would not be possible to use the encrypted packet number as a nonce
unless it is acceptable to use that octets that follow, which could be hard
to justify. The alternative is to either a) have full length packet
numbers, b) renegotiate keys before wrap, c) drop the CCM header and
compute it based on the decrypted packet number - which saves space as
discussed below, but which also interferes with plain TLS CCM operation.

As I have argued before, it might be simpler to simply have a 32-bit
sequential counter and restrict it to a single path, then user the upper
implicit bits for a path identifier (segmented packet numbers). In this
case there is no encryption overhead and the CCM nonce is trivially
available. The only remaining question is if the packet number should be
redundant in both the QUIC header and the CCM header. This could further be
generalised by moving the packet number out of the QUIC and into an AEAD
specific header field - but that of course impacts monitoring and
ossification.

Kind Regards,
Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen


On 21 February 2018 at 14.53.23, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen (mikkelf=
j@gmail.com)
wrote:

I suppose that CCM is not a major concern since the nonce would be computed
from the encrypted packet number and thus not reveal anything surprising.
It does, however, add a fair bit of overhead:

16 bytes of CCM header including nonce and length data. 0 padded
authenticated data so the packet header will consume 16 octets. This
includes the now redundant encrypted packet number. At the is a 0-15 octet
padding which on might be 7.5 octets on average, or 0 if the packet is
filled perfectly, and of course the 16 octet auth tag.

This means that CCM mode will use at least 3x16 octets and addition to
encrypted payload and UDP headers.

It would probably be easy to remove 32 octets of that overhead, but it
would require special adaptation of CCM for QUIC that might not be
worthwhile - as we wait for devices that include GCM hardware support.


Kind Regards,
Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen


On 21 February 2018 at 13.42.12, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen (mikkelf=
j@gmail.com)
wrote:

Maybe I=E2=80=99m missing something (such as exactly how TLS/QUIC maps encr=
yption
headers to packets:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-quic-tls-08#section-5.3

but it appears that the packet number encryption / linkage discussion is
focused entirely on AES-GCM.

The CCM mode which is part of TLS 1.3 has a header of 16 octets that
includes a nonce. This nonce would appear to the packet number.

https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3610

In summary: CCM has the unencrypted form H, LA, A, PA, LM, M, PM, T where H
is a 16 octets header including nonce, LA is a length or the authenticated
data A, LM is the length of the plain text data M, PA and PM is 0-padding
up to block length, and T is tag of up to 16 octets. Some fields optional
depending on first octet (flag) in H. T is computed as a chain of AES
encryptions. Encryption is applied to LM, M, PM, T in CTR mode. (I suppose
there is also padding after A).

CCM is relevant to devices that have AES acceleration but no CLMUL
instruction for GHASH needed by efficient AES-GCM implementations. E.g.
ESP32 microcontrollers:
https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tls/current/msg22495.html

Of course the CCM header could partly or fully be removed if the
authenticated data and encrypted data lengths can be implied otherwise, or
part of it could be encrypted.



On 12 February 2018 at 12.49.38, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen (mikkelf=
j@gmail.com)
wrote:

I can add some more numbers here
https://github.com/openssl/openssl/blob/master/crypto/aes/asm/aesni-x86_64.=
pl

The numbers deducted from Solarflare report is
interesting, however I am not sure if that reflects the ordinary use
of a protocol; my understanding is that HFT is exceptional.

HFT is the extreme case which is why the benchmark is interesting, not
necessarily the use case itself.

The same concern applies to how fast a distributed database can achieve
consensus, which is something I do care about.

On 12 February 2018 at 12.44.01, Kazuho Oku (kazuhooku@gmail.com) wrote:

Victor, Mikkel, thank you for the estimations.

To me it seems that the estimated overhead of 0.1% seems like a
natural number that we would see on production environment, where the
average packet size is not small.

I also agree that it would be worthwhile to look the case where small
packets are exchanged. The numbers deducted from Solarflare report is
interesting, however I am not sure if that reflects the ordinary use
of a protocol; my understanding is that HFT is exceptional.

One benchmark that might give us a more meaningful number is the DNS
benchmark.

https://www.knot-dns.cz/benchmark/ lists a benchmark of several
authoritative DNS servers. The TLD benchmark and the Hosting (10k)
benchmark gives us the rough estimation on how much PPS we can achieve
when exchanging small packets.

The numbers we see on the benchmark is roughly 2M RPS (4M pps) on a 16
core (8x2) Intel Xeon processer running with HP enabled, when the
fastest DNS server is being used.

Running `openssl speed -evp` on a similar CPU gives me the following result=
:

$ /usr/local/openssl-1.1.0/bin/openssl speed -evp aes128
Doing aes-128-cbc for 3s on 16 size blocks: 133387877 aes-128-cbc's in 3.00=
s

This shows that 40M AES block operations can be run on a single core,
per second, which in turn means that a server with 16 cores can
perform 640M AES block operations per second (or 1,280M if HT is
enabled and if AES is not the bottleneck).

To summarize, if DNS had packet encryption, the overhead would be
somewhere from 0.3% to 0.6%.

Considering that, I would anticipate that the overhead of packet
number encryption will be neglible even for short packet workloads.


2018-02-12 16:19 GMT+09:00 Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv@google.com>:
> I have no idea how you get that number (by which I mean, I have a lot of
> guesses, but none of which are solid or useful here). I looked at the
> profiles of various workloads we're running in production, and I estimate
> that none of them would be impacted by PN encryption by worse than 0.1%.
>
> On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 12:12 PM, Praveen Balasubramanian
> <pravb@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>
>> Makes sense. The 1%+ overhead I had quoted was in comparison to full
>> protocol processing all the way from app to NIC. This is with an
unoptimized
>> early QUIC implementation and not fully optimized UDP/IP stack (we have
>> focused much much more on optimizing TCP in the past). After software
stack
>> optimizations, the crypto share of the cost will only keep going up for
>> which we have no technique other than to offload when such support is
>> available in hardware and offload is way more challenging when workload
is
>> hosted in VMs and containers.
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen [mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2018 3:36 AM
>> To: Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv@google.com>
>> Cc: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>; quic@ietf.org; Marten
>> Seemann <martenseemann@gmail.com>; huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
>> Subject: Re: Packet number encryption
>>
>>
>>
>> To put numbers into perspective using Intel 2015 data
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
https://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/improving-openssl-performance#_To=
c416943490
>>
>>
>>
>> A 64 byte message in AES-GCM AEAD in HW would use 1.03 cycles per byte o=
r
>> 66 cycles total, or 22ns on a 3GHz core.
>>
>>
>>
>> For packet numbers we use the CBC encrypt numbers because here AES canno=
t
>> exploit block parallelism.
>>
>> Here we see 4.44 cycles/byte in HW or 71 cycles per block. With a 3GHz
>> setup that would amount to about 24ns overhead for packet encryption.
>>
>>
>>
>> Clearly it makes no sense that AES-GCM is faster than a single AES block
>> encryption, but these are only approximate numbers and CBC mode might
have a
>> little overhead, so we clamp packet numbers to 22ns.
>>
>>
>>
>> Taking the 98ns overhead by the Solarflare report we get a total
>> (simplified) processing time is 98ns non-crypto, 22ns for packet number,
and
>> 22ns for AEAD totalling 142ns. So the packet number encryption overhead
>> would be 22/(98+22)*100% =3D 18%. The numbers ignore other QUIC
bookkeeping,
>> but that can be done in other cores or outside the latency critical
window.
>>
>>
>>
>> This does not take into account that AEAD operation may operate less tha=
n
>> optimal because the packet number must be extracted first. On the other
>> hand, it is also not a disastrous overhead if no good alternative can be
>> found.
>>
>>
>>
>> Earlier AES-NI I=E2=80=99ve seen from Intel doc suggests around 100cycle=
s in HW
>> for a single AES-128 block which would be 33ns per packet number in the
>> above example.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 10 February 2018 at 06.18.25, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen
>> (mikkelfj@gmail.com) wrote:
>>
>> 98ns for 68 byte messages
>
>



--
Kazuho Oku

--001a1140fe228e791b0565b98871
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">Sorry for the mail f=
lux,</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial=
;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">but usin=
g encrypted packet numbers as nonce would not even be possible with the cur=
rent proposal, because the nonce must be known before the packet number is =
encrypted.</div> <div id=3D"bloop_sign_1519222342451902976" class=3D"bloop_=
sign"><div style=3D"font-family:helvetica,arial;font-size:13px"><br><br></d=
iv></div> <br><p class=3D"airmail_on">On 21 February 2018 at 15.09.16, Mikk=
el Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen (<a href=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com">mikkel=
fj@gmail.com</a>) wrote:</p> <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq"><=
span><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><div>=
</div><div>




<title></title>



<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
If the encrypted packet number is truncated, e.g. wrapping after 4
octets, it would not be possible to use the encrypted packet number
as a nonce unless it is acceptable to use that octets that follow,
which could be hard to justify. The alternative is to either a)
have full length packet numbers, b) renegotiate keys before wrap,
c) drop the CCM header and compute it based on the decrypted packet
number - which saves space as discussed below, but which also
interferes with plain TLS CCM operation.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>As I have argued before, it might be simpler to simply have a
32-bit sequential counter and restrict it to a single path, then
user the upper implicit bits for a path identifier (segmented
packet numbers). In this case there is no encryption overhead and
the CCM nonce is trivially available. The only remaining question
is if the packet number should be redundant in both the QUIC header
and the CCM header. This could further be generalised by moving the
packet number out of the QUIC and into an AEAD specific header
field - but that of course impacts monitoring and
ossification.</div>
<br>
<div id=3D"bloop_sign_1519221647518923008" class=3D"bloop_sign">
<div style=3D"font-family:helvetica,arial;font-size:13px">Kind
Regards,</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:helvetica,arial;font-size:13px">Mikkel
Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen<br>
<br></div>
</div>
<br>
<p class=3D"airmail_on">On 21 February 2018 at 14.53.23, Mikkel
Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen (<a href=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com">mikkelfj@=
gmail.com</a>) wrote:</p>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
<div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<span>I suppose that CCM is not a major concern since the nonce
would be computed from the encrypted packet number and thus not
reveal anything surprising. It does, however, add a fair bit of
overhead:</span></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<span><br></span></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<span>16 bytes of CCM header including nonce and length data. 0
padded authenticated data so the packet header will consume 16
octets. This includes the now redundant encrypted packet number. At
the is a 0-15 octet padding which on might be 7.5 octets on
average, or 0 if the packet is filled perfectly, and of course the
16 octet auth tag.</span></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<span><br></span></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<span>This means that CCM mode will use at least 3x16 octets and
addition to encrypted payload and UDP headers.</span></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<span><br></span></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<span>It would probably be easy to remove 32 octets of that
overhead, but it would require special adaptation of CCM for QUIC
that might not be worthwhile - as we wait for devices that include
GCM hardware support.</span></div>
<div><span><br></span></div>
<span><br></span>
<div id=3D"bloop_sign_1519220735997404928" class=3D"bloop_sign">
<div style=3D"font-family:helvetica,arial;font-size:13px"><span>Kind
Regards,</span></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:helvetica,arial;font-size:13px">
<span>Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen<br>
<br></span></div>
</div>
<span><br></span>
<p class=3D"airmail_on"><span>On 21 February 2018 at 13.42.12, Mikkel
Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen (<a href=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com">mikkelfj@=
gmail.com</a>)
wrote:</span></p>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
<div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<span><span>Maybe I=E2=80=99m missing something (such as exactly how
TLS/QUIC maps encryption headers to packets:=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.=
ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-quic-tls-08#section-5.3">https://tools.ietf.org/ht=
ml/draft-ietf-quic-tls-08#section-5.3</a></span></span></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<span><br></span></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<span>but it appears that the packet number encryption / linkage
discussion is focused entirely on AES-GCM.</span></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<span><br></span></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<span>The CCM mode which is part of TLS 1.3 has a header of 16
octets that includes a nonce. This nonce would appear to the packet
number.</span></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<span><br></span></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<span><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc3610">https://tools.ietf.or=
g/html/rfc3610</a></span></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<span><br></span></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<span>In summary: CCM has the unencrypted form H, LA, A, PA, LM, M,
PM, T where H is a 16 octets header including nonce, LA is a length
or the authenticated data A, LM is the length of the plain text
data M, PA and PM is 0-padding up to block length, and T is tag of
up to 16 octets. Some fields optional depending on first octet
(flag) in H. T is computed as a chain of AES encryptions.
Encryption is applied to LM, M, PM, T in CTR mode. (I suppose there
is also padding after A).</span></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<span><br></span></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<span>CCM is relevant to devices that have AES acceleration but no
CLMUL instruction for GHASH needed by efficient AES-GCM
implementations. E.g. ESP32 microcontrollers:</span></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<span><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tls/current/msg22495=
.html">https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/tls/current/msg22495.html</a><=
/span></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<span>=C2=A0</span></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<span>Of course the CCM header could partly or fully be removed if
the authenticated data and encrypted data lengths can be implied
otherwise, or part of it could be encrypted.</span></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<span><br></span></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_sign_1519215973979565056" class=3D"bloop_sign">
<div style=3D"font-family:helvetica,arial;font-size:13px">
<span><br></span></div>
</div>
<span><br></span>
<p class=3D"airmail_on"><span>On 12 February 2018 at 12.49.38, Mikkel
Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen (<a href=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com">mikkelfj@=
gmail.com</a>)
wrote:</span></p>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
<div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<span><span>I can add some more numbers here</span></span></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<span><a href=3D"https://github.com/openssl/openssl/blob/master/crypto/aes/=
asm/aesni-x86_64.pl">
https://github.com/openssl/openssl/blob/master/crypto/aes/asm/aesni-x86_64.=
pl</a></span></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<span><br></span></div>
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica=
,Arial;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weigh=
t:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transf=
orm:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<span>The numbers deducted from Solarflare report is=C2=A0<br>
interesting, however I am not sure if that reflects the ordinary
use=C2=A0<br>
of a protocol; my understanding is that HFT is
exceptional.=C2=A0</span></blockquote>
</div>
<p><span>HFT is the extreme case which is why the benchmark is
interesting, not necessarily the use case itself.</span></p>
<p><span>The same concern applies to how fast a distributed
database can achieve consensus, which is something I do care
about.</span></p>
<span><br></span>
<p class=3D"airmail_on"><span>On 12 February 2018 at 12.44.01, Kazuho
Oku (<a href=3D"mailto:kazuhooku@gmail.com">kazuhooku@gmail.com</a>)
wrote:</span></p>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq">
<div>
<div><span><span>Victor, Mikkel, thank you for the
estimations.<br>
<br>
To me it seems that the estimated overhead of 0.1% seems like
a<br>
natural number that we would see on production environment, where
the<br>
average packet size is not small.<br>
<br>
I also agree that it would be worthwhile to look the case where
small<br>
packets are exchanged. The numbers deducted from Solarflare report
is<br>
interesting, however I am not sure if that reflects the ordinary
use<br>
of a protocol; my understanding is that HFT is exceptional.<br>
<br>
One benchmark that might give us a more meaningful number is the
DNS benchmark.<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"https://www.knot-dns.cz/benchmark/">https://www.knot-dns.cz/benc=
hmark/</a> lists a benchmark of
several<br>
authoritative DNS servers. The TLD benchmark and the Hosting
(10k)<br>
benchmark gives us the rough estimation on how much PPS we can
achieve<br>
when exchanging small packets.<br>
<br>
The numbers we see on the benchmark is roughly 2M RPS (4M pps) on a
16<br>
core (8x2) Intel Xeon processer running with HP enabled, when
the<br>
fastest DNS server is being used.<br>
<br>
Running `openssl speed -evp` on a similar CPU gives me the
following result:<br>
<br>
$ /usr/local/openssl-1.1.0/bin/openssl speed -evp aes128<br>
Doing aes-128-cbc for 3s on 16 size blocks: 133387877 aes-128-cbc&#39;s
in 3.00s<br>
<br>
This shows that 40M AES block operations can be run on a single
core,<br>
per second, which in turn means that a server with 16 cores
can<br>
perform 640M AES block operations per second (or 1,280M if HT
is<br>
enabled and if AES is not the bottleneck).<br>
<br>
To summarize, if DNS had packet encryption, the overhead would
be<br>
somewhere from 0.3% to 0.6%.<br>
<br>
Considering that, I would anticipate that the overhead of
packet<br>
number encryption will be neglible even for short packet
workloads.<br>
<br>
<br>
2018-02-12 16:19 GMT+09:00 Victor Vasiliev
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:vasilvv@google.com">vasilvv@google.com</a>&gt;:<br>
&gt; I have no idea how you get that number (by which I mean, I
have a lot of<br>
&gt; guesses, but none of which are solid or useful here). I looked
at the<br>
&gt; profiles of various workloads we&#39;re running in production, and
I estimate<br>
&gt; that none of them would be impacted by PN encryption by worse
than 0.1%.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 12:12 PM, Praveen
Balasubramanian<br>
&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pravb@microsoft.com">pravb@microsoft.com</a>&gt;=
 wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Makes sense. The 1%+ overhead I had quoted was in
comparison to full<br>
&gt;&gt; protocol processing all the way from app to NIC. This is
with an unoptimized<br>
&gt;&gt; early QUIC implementation and not fully optimized UDP/IP
stack (we have<br>
&gt;&gt; focused much much more on optimizing TCP in the past).
After software stack<br>
&gt;&gt; optimizations, the crypto share of the cost will only keep
going up for<br>
&gt;&gt; which we have no technique other than to offload when such
support is<br>
&gt;&gt; available in hardware and offload is way more challenging
when workload is<br>
&gt;&gt; hosted in VMs and containers.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; From: Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen
[mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com">mikkelfj@gmail.com</a>]<br>
&gt;&gt; Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2018 3:36 AM<br>
&gt;&gt; To: Victor Vasiliev &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:vasilvv@google.com">vasi=
lvv@google.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Cc: Praveen Balasubramanian &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pravb@microsoft.=
com">pravb@microsoft.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@ietf.org</a>; Marten<br>
&gt;&gt; Seemann &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martenseemann@gmail.com">martenseema=
nn@gmail.com</a>&gt;; huitema
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:huitema@huitema.net">huitema@huitema.net</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Subject: Re: Packet number encryption<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; To put numbers into perspective using Intel 2015
data<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;
<a href=3D"https://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/improving-openssl-perf=
ormance#_Toc416943490">https://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/improving-=
openssl-performance#_Toc416943490</a><br>

&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; A 64 byte message in AES-GCM AEAD in HW would use 1.03
cycles per byte or<br>
&gt;&gt; 66 cycles total, or 22ns on a 3GHz core.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; For packet numbers we use the CBC encrypt numbers because
here AES cannot<br>
&gt;&gt; exploit block parallelism.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Here we see 4.44 cycles/byte in HW or 71 cycles per block.
With a 3GHz<br>
&gt;&gt; setup that would amount to about 24ns overhead for packet
encryption.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Clearly it makes no sense that AES-GCM is faster than a
single AES block<br>
&gt;&gt; encryption, but these are only approximate numbers and CBC
mode might have a<br>
&gt;&gt; little overhead, so we clamp packet numbers to 22ns.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Taking the 98ns overhead by the Solarflare report we get a
total<br>
&gt;&gt; (simplified) processing time is 98ns non-crypto, 22ns for
packet number, and<br>
&gt;&gt; 22ns for AEAD totalling 142ns. So the packet number
encryption overhead<br>
&gt;&gt; would be 22/(98+22)*100% =3D 18%. The numbers ignore other
QUIC bookkeeping,<br>
&gt;&gt; but that can be done in other cores or outside the latency
critical window.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; This does not take into account that AEAD operation may
operate less than<br>
&gt;&gt; optimal because the packet number must be extracted first.
On the other<br>
&gt;&gt; hand, it is also not a disastrous overhead if no good
alternative can be<br>
&gt;&gt; found.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Earlier AES-NI I=E2=80=99ve seen from Intel doc suggests around
100cycles in HW<br>
&gt;&gt; for a single AES-128 block which would be 33ns per packet
number in the<br>
&gt;&gt; above example.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On 10 February 2018 at 06.18.25, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e
J=C3=B8rgensen<br>
&gt;&gt; (<a href=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com">mikkelfj@gmail.com</a>) wro=
te:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; 98ns for 68 byte messages<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
Kazuho Oku<br></span></span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>


</div></div></span></blockquote></body></html>

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From: Marten Seemann <martenseemann@gmail.com>
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Subject: handling a QUIC accept backlog
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When using a socket API for a QUIC server, it can happen that there are
more incoming connections than the server can accepts at that moment. I
imagine that a server will implement some sort of queue containing
connections that have the handshake completed. Do we need any guidance on
what should happen when that queue is full?

There are multiple ways how a server could handle this situation:

   - Drop all Initial packets.
   - Send a CONNECTION_CLOSE as a response to an Initial.
   - Reply with Retries to Initial packets, but drop Handshake packets.
   - Something more sophisticated?

Should we write anything about this in the spec, or is this something that
implementations have to figure out for themselves without any guidance?

--001a1143fc2660e9e60565bb944d
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<div dir=3D"ltr">





<p class=3D"inbox-inbox-p1">When using a socket API for a QUIC server, it c=
an happen that there are more incoming connections than the server can acce=
pts at that moment. I imagine that a server will implement some sort of que=
ue containing connections that have the handshake completed. Do we need any=
 guidance on what should happen when that queue is full?</p>
<p class=3D"inbox-inbox-p1">There are multiple ways how a server could hand=
le this situation:</p>
<ul class=3D"inbox-inbox-ul1">
<li class=3D"inbox-inbox-li1">Drop all Initial packets.</li>
<li class=3D"inbox-inbox-li1">Send a CONNECTION_CLOSE as a response to an I=
nitial.</li>
<li class=3D"inbox-inbox-li1">Reply with Retries to Initial packets, but dr=
op Handshake packets.</li>
<li class=3D"inbox-inbox-li1">Something more sophisticated?</li>
</ul>
<p class=3D"inbox-inbox-p2">Should we write anything about this in the spec=
, or is this something that implementations have to figure out for themselv=
es without any guidance?<br></p></div>

--001a1143fc2660e9e60565bb944d--


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Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2018 16:57:36 +0000
From: Gorry Fairhurst <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>
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To: Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>
CC: "De Schepper, Koen (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" <koen.de_schepper@nokia-bell-labs.com>,  =?UTF-8?B?TWlyamEgS8O8aGxld2luZA==?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>,  QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>,  "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>, "ekinnear@apple.com" <ekinnear@apple.com>
Subject: Re: ECN in QUIC connection migration
References: <HE1PR0702MB36252D61A7A51B848B5DA9E7C2FA0@HE1PR0702MB3625.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <639A6936-34F2-4C27-973A-EEAE878677FA@apple.com> <VI1PR0701MB2126E79A17DB715F6C91EA05B9F90@VI1PR0701MB2126.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <HE1PR0702MB36256D92C008302CBD908DE9C2F20@HE1PR0702MB3625.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <EFA61DBC-1F6F-49C2-906C-D0054F2341C7@tik.ee.ethz.ch> <HE1PR0702MB3625AF6F741A89D4BD68E7CCC2F70@HE1PR0702MB3625.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <5CC94D22-1375-40A2-8084-BA4A43F6FA94@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, <HE1PR0702MB3625310E4FC43F4BCA7717EEC2F50@HE1PR0702MB3625.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <VI1PR0701MB21268D5DE0F26BF9A54530F9B9F50@VI1PR0701MB2126.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <HE1PR0702MB36252D23A798375FE12607FBC2CE0@HE1PR0702MB3625.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com>
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So I worked carefully through the text. Most of what I saw looked sound 
- well done!

At places the language looked inconsistent with either other parts of 
the document or with other RFCs. I updated the wiki to resulve thses 
issues. Hoepfully the new text is more close to what we need,

Gorry

On 21/02/2018, 14:37, Ingemar Johansson S wrote:
>
> Hi
>
> Trying to pick up this thread again.
>
> Do we have some kind of minimal consensus around the proposed ECN 
> functionality in QUIC ?
>
> https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/wiki/ECN-in-QUIC#suggested-additions-to-to-become-rfcs
>
> /Ingemar
>
> *From:* De Schepper, Koen (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) 
> [mailto:koen.de_schepper@nokia-bell-labs.com]
> *Sent:* den 14 februari 2018 17:49
> *To:* Mirja Kühlewind <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>; Ingemar 
> Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>
> *Cc:* ekinnear@apple.com; Lubashev, Igor <ilubashe@akamai.com>; Ian 
> Swett <ianswett@google.com>; QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>; Christian 
> Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>; Ingemar Johansson S 
> <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>
> *Subject:* RE: ECN in QUIC connection migration
>
> Hi Mirja,
>
> Why would you like to see the distinction?
>
> It was indeed decided in the side meeting that we should not foresee 
> extra protocol complexity for signalling that the receiver cannot read 
> the ecn bits.
>
> For me the reasons were: It is not a desired situation which will 
> hopefully disappear in the future, and I don't think it is so useful 
> for a sender to know. We now assume reading 00 bits and echo all 
> counters unincremented with 0 values in that case, just as if the path 
> bleaches it. If we make an explicit protocol exchange for it, it feels 
> like it is an extra feature ;-). Also people might start making their 
> congestion control more complex with up to 2 more conditional 
> parameters (sender-cannot-set-ecn and receiver-cannot-read-ecn 
> booleans, next to no-ecn). Not to mention extra interop testcases with 
> such sender's/receiver's extra functionality.
>
> To make your code simple and platform independent, not being able to 
> set/read echo bits should be invisible until the point of the missing 
> socket API call, which will most probably have conditional compiler 
> directives per platform at that point.
>
> So conclusion was: Any higher layer protocol code should not make any 
> distinction between host inability and path bleaching, and we only 
> have functionality for general "end2end ecn inability".
>
> Agreed that the receiver code should be independent from how ecn is 
> used. This is the case now. For the receiver we only increment and 
> echo the counters all the time. That's it, very simple. Only the 
> sender determines how ecn capability is checked and how ecn is used.
>
> Maybe also a good point that the current capability check is the 
> minimal?? And needs some extra checks?
>
> Regards,
>
> Koen.
>
> Outlook voor Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36> downloaden
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> *From:*Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com 
> <mailto:ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 14, 2018 2:08:30 PM
> *To:* Mirja Kühlewind
> *Cc:* De Schepper, Koen (Nokia - BE/Antwerp); ekinnear@apple.com 
> <mailto:ekinnear@apple.com>; Lubashev, Igor; Ian Swett; QUIC WG; 
> Christian Huitema; Ingemar Johansson S
> *Subject:* RE: ECN in QUIC connection migration
>
> Hi
>
> I attach the minutes from the side meeting in Singapore, I believe 
> that they were only posted on the ecn-quic mailing list ☹ .
>
> I agree that the sender/received issues are probably known a-priory 
> and if a sender does know that its OS stack does not have the 
> necessary API support for ECN then it does not make much sense to try it.
>
> /Ingemar
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Mirja Kühlewind [mailto:mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch]
> > Sent: den 13 februari 2018 13:29
> > To: Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com 
> <mailto:ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>>
> > Cc: De Schepper, Koen (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) <koen.de_schepper@nokia-
> <mailto:koen.de_schepper@nokia-%0b>> bell-labs.com>; 
> ekinnear@apple.com <mailto:ekinnear@apple.com>; Lubashev, Igor
> > <ilubashe@akamai.com <mailto:ilubashe@akamai.com>>; Ian Swett 
> <ianswett@google.com <mailto:ianswett@google.com>>; QUIC WG
> > <quic@ietf.org <mailto:quic@ietf.org>>; Christian Huitema 
> <huitema@huitema.net <mailto:huitema@huitema.net>>
> > Subject: Re: ECN in QUIC connection migration
> >
> > Hi Ingemar,
> >
> > see below.
> >
> > > Am 12.02.2018 um 22:11 schrieb Ingemar Johansson S
> > <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com 
> <mailto:ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>>:
> > >
> > > Hi
> > >
> > > Please see inline
> > >
> > > BR
> > > Ingemar
> > >
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: Mirja Kühlewind [mailto:mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch]
> > >> Sent: den 12 februari 2018 16:26
> > >> To: Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com 
> <mailto:ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>>
> > >> Cc: De Schepper, Koen (Nokia - BE/Antwerp) <koen.de_schepper@nokia-
> <mailto:koen.de_schepper@nokia-%0b>> >> bell-labs.com>; 
> ekinnear@apple.com <mailto:ekinnear@apple.com>; Lubashev, Igor
> > >> <ilubashe@akamai.com <mailto:ilubashe@akamai.com>>; Ian Swett 
> <ianswett@google.com <mailto:ianswett@google.com>>; QUIC WG
> > >> <quic@ietf.org <mailto:quic@ietf.org>>; Christian Huitema 
> <huitema@huitema.net <mailto:huitema@huitema.net>>
> > >> Subject: Re: ECN in QUIC connection migration
> > >>
> > >> Hi Ingemar,
> > >>
> > >> two points.
> > >>
> > >> I think it would be good to be as explicit as possible here,
> > >> therefore I would prefer if an endpoint that knows that it can not
> > >> access the ECN IP bits indicates this directly in the handshake. In
> > >> this case no further testing is needed.
> > > <IJ> Yes, this was the original idea, we discussed this at the ECN
> > > QUIC side meeting though and afterwards and as far as I understand it,
> > > there was a consensus that it was unnecessarily complicated. So we
> > > selected a method where we just verify that the ECT(0),ECT(1),CE
> > > counters have reasonable values. If that is not the case, then it is
> > > an indication that either the path or the endpoints do not support
> > > ECN. </IJ>
> >
> > I checked the minutes and could not really find a conclusion there. 
> I agree
> > that there should be no negotiation in the handshake (both endpoint need
> > to implement the ECN logic as part of v1) but what would be helpful 
> is to let
> > the other end know if you already know that you never will be able to
> > provide feedback because you can just not read the bits in the IP 
> header.
> > That is not complicated at all.
> >
> > I think what we need to specify in v1 is a way to provide ECN 
> feedback (or
> > indicate that this is not possible). However, we actually would not 
> need to
> > say anything about how ECN should be used. That’s a sender side 
> decision.
> > As long as you can get feedback, we are flexible in how to use and 
> test ECN in
> > v1 or anytime later. Of course it would be nice to provide some default
> > recommendations with some easy fallback logic but that's the part we can
> > experiment with and change any time without any need to change the
> > protocol spec (as long as ECN feedback is provided, when ECN is used 
> by the
> > sender).
> >
> > >
> > >>
> > >> Further, the path testing itself is independent of QUIC and can be
> > >> used for any protocol. Moreover, it’s more complicated than just
> > >> testing ECT. I guess the general advice here is to remember which
> > >> codepoints were send and compare this to the feedback provided. If
> > >> discrepancies are observed that indicate that a middlebox has changed
> > >> these bits, all packets should be marked as no-ECT (while additional
> > >> testing MAY be performed at any later point in time). However, how
> > >> exactly this testing should look like, should not be specified in 
> this doc
> > (but more generally).
> > > <IJ> It is possible that the actual path verification can be put as a
> > > separate document, not sure if that is accepted by the group or it is
> > > desired with a more elaborate description directly in the QUIC drafts.
> > > As regards to verification, I do believe that the proposed counters
> > > should be able to detect bleaching, accidental remarking from ECT(0)
> > > to ECT(1) and also cases where packets are not CE marked at all
> > > despite other signs of congestion </IJ>
> >
> > We tried to design a more elaborated testing scheme where we would send
> > 3 ECT0, the 3 ECT1, and the 3 CE (which we would of cause not count as a
> > congestion indication as the CE was set by the sender). However, 
> this was
> > mostly to detect black-whaling which is probably less a concern than re-
> > marking. I think today the most common case it that the bits will be 
> set to
> > zeros which is only a problem when there was some CE marking previously
> > on the path that then would get lost. Thus in this case it would be
> > recommend to not use ECN/not set packets as ECT at sender side.
> >
> > However, as I said above, we probably should make recommendation how to
> > use ECN by default but need to leave room for other usage/testing 
> schemes.
> > But after all the receiver being not able to read the bits and 
> remarking on the
> > path are to different things and should not be mixed up. If the 
> sender can
> > not read the bits this is know a priori and there is no ambiguity 
> that needs to
> > be tested. So why not signal it directly. The question if the sender 
> can write
> > ECN does not need to be communicated. There is no difference in the
> > sender decided to not use ECN or it just can not use it; in both 
> cases it is not
> > necessary to send ECN feedback back. Only if a non-non-ECT is 
> observed at
> > the receiver, ECN feedback needs to be provided. However, knowing that
> > the receiver can’t not provide feedback is important because in this 
> case the
> > sender MUST not set the packets as ECT as it will not be able to 
> react to that
> > signal. Testing the path in independent of that.
> >
> > Mirja
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >>
> > >> Mirja
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> Am 09.02.2018 um 08:34 schrieb Ingemar Johansson S
> > >> <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com 
> <mailto:ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>>:
> > >>>
> > >>> Hi Eric, Koen + others
> > >>>
> > >>> Thanks for the comments and the update. A question to the rest of
> > >>> the
> > >> audience, does the presented text explain sufficiently enough how ECN
> > >> works with connection migration ?
> > >>> https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/wiki/ECN-in-QUIC#transport-
> > >> draft-connection-migration
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> /Ingemar
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> From: De Schepper, Koen (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)
> > >> [mailto:koen.de_schepper@nokia-bell-labs.com]
> > >>> Sent: den 2 februari 2018 15:44
> > >>> To: ekinnear@apple.com <mailto:ekinnear@apple.com>; Ingemar 
> Johansson S
> > >> <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com 
> <mailto:ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>>
> > >>> Cc: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org <mailto:quic@ietf.org>>; Ian Swett 
> <ianswett@google.com <mailto:ianswett@google.com>>;
> > >> Lubashev, Igor <ilubashe@akamai.com 
> <mailto:ilubashe@akamai.com>>; Christian Huitema
> > >> <huitema@huitema.net <mailto:huitema@huitema.net>>
> > >>> Subject: RE: ECN in QUIC connection migration
> > >>>
> > >>> Hi Ingemar,
> > >>>
> > >>> I also read again through the document, and had following comments:
> > >>>
> > >>> I replaced:
> > >>> “The ACK_ECN frame is used to convey ACKs when the ECN capability
> > >> exchange concludes that ECN should be used for the given connection.”
> > >>> Originally it sounds as if the counters are not echoed anymore if
> > >>> the ECN
> > >> capability check fails. I assume this was not the intention, but if
> > >> it is: First, we don’t have a protocol or decision point defined when
> > >> that condition is met (sender should let the receiver know in the
> > >> next packet), and second, I would always send the echo, as we might
> > >> “try again later (with another ECT?)”, or might decide to use the 
> ECN bits
> > differently later.
> > >>>
> > >>> I also changed the text around the connection migration, I think
> > >>> before Eric
> > >> reviewed it. I made it such that every new path creates a new
> > >> connection state with an initialized congestion control state and ECN
> > >> counters (at least ECN counters reset to 0s). Not sure if this
> > >> matches with the other sections in the QUIC draft.
> > >>>
> > >>> I also had the thought whether it was really needed to have the 2
> > >>> cases. I
> > >> agree we should simplify, by just starting over and doing the check
> > >> unconditionally whether it was successful or not in a previous path.
> > >>>
> > >>> Regards,
> > >>> Koen.
> > >>>
> > >>> From: ekinnear@apple.com <mailto:ekinnear@apple.com> 
> [mailto:ekinnear@apple.com]
> > >>> Sent: Friday, February 2, 2018 12:02 AM
> > >>> To: Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com 
> <mailto:ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>>
> > >>> Cc: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org <mailto:quic@ietf.org>>; Ian Swett 
> <ianswett@google.com <mailto:ianswett@google.com>>;
> > >> Lubashev, Igor <ilubashe@akamai.com 
> <mailto:ilubashe@akamai.com>>; Christian Huitema
> > >> <huitema@huitema.net <mailto:huitema@huitema.net>>; De Schepper, 
> Koen (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)
> > >> <koen.de_schepper@nokia-bell-labs.com 
> <mailto:koen.de_schepper@nokia-bell-labs.com>>
> > >>> Subject: Re: ECN in QUIC connection migration
> > >>>
> > >>> Hi Ingemar,
> > >>>
> > >>> This generally looks good to me!
> > >>> A few questions and observations:
> > >>>
> > >>> There are two unique cases:
> > >>>
> > >>>                • ECN capability check successful at initial 
> connection setup
> > >>>                • ECN capability check failed at initial connection
> > >>> setup
> > >>>
> > >>> Are these actually any different in terms of action taken by an 
> endpoint?
> > >>> It seems like on the new network path the endpoint would go through
> > >>> the
> > >> same process of: (a) verify ECN capability and if successful to
> > >> whatever degree then (b) run the rest of the ECN machinery as
> > appropriate.
> > >>>
> > >>> In other words, as long as you allow people to start using ECN upon
> > >> migration (in other words, to allow starting it after the initial
> > >> connection establishment), then the specifics for ECN with migration
> > >> is essentially one statement, which is “do the ECN process on each
> > >> new network path that you use”.
> > >>>
> > >>> Connection migration has impact on the number of reported CE marked
> > >> packets. A new connection state with new congestion control state and
> > >> ECN counters is instantiated at the sender and receiver. The ECN
> > >> counters MUST start from zero again.
> > >>>
> > >>> This seems fine to me, it’s inline with the rest of the congestion
> > >> control/loss recovery state that also needs to be reset for the 
> new path.
> > >>>
> > >>> Given that each migration requires at least one exchange of packets
> > >>> at the
> > >> beginning (at the very least for address validation from the side of
> > >> the endpoint that didn’t migrate), it seems like that’s an excellent
> > >> moment to mark the packets and perform the ECN capability detection.
> > >> Those packets are also likely padded, etc. similar to initial packets
> > >> since they’re on a previously unused network path.
> > >>>
> > >>> I think the current proposed requirement of just using the “first”
> > >>> packets
> > >> and marking those is sufficient (and good to avoid any requirement as
> > >> to which frames are contained in those packets), since we are always
> > >> exchanging packets in both directions immediately after migration.
> > >>>
> > >>> This has the added benefit such that any endpoint “probing” possible
> > >> network paths could include the bits necessary to detect ECN
> > >> capability on the path being probed, so it could even know before
> > >> migrating whether or not it would be able to use ECN on that new 
> path.
> > >>>
> > >>> Thanks,
> > >>> Eric
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> On Feb 1, 2018, at 3:07 AM, Ingemar Johansson S
> > >> <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com 
> <mailto:ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> Hi
> > >>> I have written up different aspects of connection migration and how
> > >>> it
> > >> plays with ECN.
> > >>> https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/wiki/ECN-in-QUIC#transport-
> > >> draft-connection-migration
> > >>>
> > >>> A caveat.. I am a bit unsure about the definition of connection 
> migration
> > .
> > >> My interpretation is that a client moves to a new IP address due to
> > >> e.g. a NAT rebind or switch from WiFi to cellular, right ?. Is a new
> > >> connection instantiated at a connection migration ?
> > >>>
> > >>> /Ingemar
> > >>>
> > >>> ==================================
> > >>> Ingemar Johansson  M.Sc.
> > >>> Master Researcher
> > >>>
> > >>> Ericsson Research
> > >>> Network Protocols & E2E Performance
> > >>> Labratoriegränd 11
> > >>> 971 28, Luleå, Sweden
> > >>> Phone +46-1071 43042
> > >>> SMS/MMS +46-73 078 3289
> > >>> ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com 
> <mailto:ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>
> > >>> www.ericsson.com <http://www.ericsson.com>
> > >>>
> > >>>                 You can't start a fire  Worrying 'bout your little
> > >>> world falling apart
> > >>>               Bruce Springsteen
> > >>> ==================================
> > >
>


From nobody Wed Feb 21 10:13:16 2018
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Subject: Re: handling a QUIC accept backlog
From: =?utf-8?Q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
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Hi Martin,

I think that could fit well in the applicability doc. If people agree, =
please go ahead and file an issue or a PR.

As a general note, both the applicability and the manageability =
statements are outdated, as things are so much in move still and =
therefore we didn=E2=80=99t put effort in to sync up with every =
revision. As soon as things (especially around the wire image and =
handshake) have settle a bit more, we will do an update.

Mirja



> Am 21.02.2018 um 17:39 schrieb Marten Seemann =
<martenseemann@gmail.com>:
>=20
> When using a socket API for a QUIC server, it can happen that there =
are more incoming connections than the server can accepts at that =
moment. I imagine that a server will implement some sort of queue =
containing connections that have the handshake completed. Do we need any =
guidance on what should happen when that queue is full?
>=20
> There are multiple ways how a server could handle this situation:
>=20
> 	=E2=80=A2 Drop all Initial packets.
> 	=E2=80=A2 Send a CONNECTION_CLOSE as a response to an Initial.
> 	=E2=80=A2 Reply with Retries to Initial packets, but drop =
Handshake packets.
> 	=E2=80=A2 Something more sophisticated?
> Should we write anything about this in the spec, or is this something =
that implementations have to figure out for themselves without any =
guidance?
>=20


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Subject: RE: handling a QUIC accept backlog
To: Marten Seemann <martenseemann@gmail.com>,  =?UTF-8?Q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>,  Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
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--001a114760b20190d70565be98b4
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

There is also the argument for HTTP 500 Server Busy - could be protocol
specific.
But load balancer might also want to know when routing encrypted data.
LB signals could also happen through the CID sub protocol -
helping load balancers might otherwise also help DoS attackers?
It could also be an ECN signal + drop.

Unless we really want to help load balancers, I agree it is more an
applicability thing.

On 21 February 2018 at 20.45.42, Praveen Balasubramanian (
pravb@microsoft.com) wrote:

This is somewhat related to DoS attack mitigation and could go into
=E2=80=9CSecurity and Privacy Considerations=E2=80=9D section of either the=
 transport or
the applicability draft with some recommendation on the attack vectors and
mitigations.

-----Original Message-----
From: QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mirja K=C3=BChlewind
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2018 10:13 AM
To: Marten Seemann <martenseemann@gmail.com>
Cc: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: handling a QUIC accept backlog

Hi Martin,

I think that could fit well in the applicability doc. If people agree,
please go ahead and file an issue or a PR.

As a general note, both the applicability and the manageability statements
are outdated, as things are so much in move still and therefore we didn=E2=
=80=99t
put effort in to sync up with every revision. As soon as things (especially
around the wire image and handshake) have settle a bit more, we will do an
update.

Mirja



> Am 21.02.2018 um 17:39 schrieb Marten Seemann <martenseemann@gmail.com>:
>
> When using a socket API for a QUIC server, it can happen that there are
more incoming connections than the server can accepts at that moment. I
imagine that a server will implement some sort of queue containing
connections that have the handshake completed. Do we need any guidance on
what should happen when that queue is full?
>
> There are multiple ways how a server could handle this situation:
>
> =E2=80=A2 Drop all Initial packets.
> =E2=80=A2 Send a CONNECTION_CLOSE as a response to an Initial.
> =E2=80=A2 Reply with Retries to Initial packets, but drop Handshake packe=
ts.
> =E2=80=A2 Something more sophisticated?
> Should we write anything about this in the spec, or is this something
that implementations have to figure out for themselves without any
guidance?
>

--001a114760b20190d70565be98b4
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">There is also the ar=
gument for HTTP 500 Server Busy - could be protocol specific.</div><div id=
=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;c=
olor:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">But load balancer might a=
lso want to know when routing encrypted data.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customf=
ont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1=
.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"marg=
in:0px">LB signals could also happen through the CID sub protocol -</div><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_sign_1519243754483225856" class=3D"bloop_sign"></div></div><=
div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:=
13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">helping load balanc=
ers might otherwise also help DoS attackers?</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfo=
nt" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.=
0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">It could also be an ECN signal + drop.</div=
><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-siz=
e:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=
=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;c=
olor:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">Unless we really want to =
help load balancers, I agree it is more an applicability thing.</div><div i=
d=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;=
color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><p class=3D"ai=
rmail_on">On 21 February 2018 at 20.45.42, Praveen Balasubramanian (<a href=
=3D"mailto:pravb@microsoft.com">pravb@microsoft.com</a>) wrote:</p> <blockq=
uote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq"><span><div><div></div><div>This is so=
mewhat related to DoS attack mitigation and could go into =E2=80=9CSecurity=
 and Privacy Considerations=E2=80=9D section of either the transport or the=
 applicability draft with some recommendation on the attack vectors and mit=
igations.
<br>
<br>-----Original Message-----
<br>From: QUIC [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org">quic-bounce=
s@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf Of Mirja K=C3=BChlewind
<br>Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2018 10:13 AM
<br>To: Marten Seemann &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martenseemann@gmail.com">marte=
nseemann@gmail.com</a>&gt;
<br>Cc: QUIC WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@ietf.org</a>&gt;
<br>Subject: Re: handling a QUIC accept backlog
<br>
<br>Hi Martin,
<br>
<br>I think that could fit well in the applicability doc. If people agree, =
please go ahead and file an issue or a PR.
<br>
<br>As a general note, both the applicability and the manageability stateme=
nts are outdated, as things are so much in move still and therefore we didn=
=E2=80=99t put effort in to sync up with every revision. As soon as things =
(especially around the wire image and handshake) have settle a bit more, we=
 will do an update.
<br>
<br>Mirja
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>&gt; Am 21.02.2018 um 17:39 schrieb Marten Seemann &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:martenseemann@gmail.com">martenseemann@gmail.com</a>&gt;:
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; When using a socket API for a QUIC server, it can happen that ther=
e are more incoming connections than the server can accepts at that moment.=
 I imagine that a server will implement some sort of queue containing conne=
ctions that have the handshake completed. Do we need any guidance on what s=
hould happen when that queue is full?
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; There are multiple ways how a server could handle this situation:
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; 	=E2=80=A2 Drop all Initial packets.
<br>&gt; 	=E2=80=A2 Send a CONNECTION_CLOSE as a response to an Initial.
<br>&gt; 	=E2=80=A2 Reply with Retries to Initial packets, but drop Handsha=
ke packets.
<br>&gt; 	=E2=80=A2 Something more sophisticated?
<br>&gt; Should we write anything about this in the spec, or is this someth=
ing that implementations have to figure out for themselves without any guid=
ance?
<br>&gt; =20
<br>
<br></div></div></span></blockquote></body></html>

--001a114760b20190d70565be98b4--


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From: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2018 10:50:43 +1100
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Subject: Re: handling a QUIC accept backlog
To: =?UTF-8?Q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>
Cc: Marten Seemann <martenseemann@gmail.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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Marten's question is a design one, I think.  But as an operational
practice, some additional documentation elsewhere could help.

I don't think that I had any expectation, but it seems like a good
idea to have some way that a server can signal "not now".  That
increases DoS risk (to the other discussion this week), but I think
that in terms of our agreed principle on trying to stop that sort of
attack, we shouldn't worry too much about that right now.

Dropping Initial packets works.  It's probably something to do in the
extreme case.
CONNECTION_CLOSE is probably better (better yet if we had an "I'm
overloaded" code, PR wanted).
Retry doesn't really work unless you think an extra round trip will
cool things down enough.
If you get to the point of receiving Handshake, then CONNECTION_CLOSE
is all you really have, but you probably want to avoid doing that
(because you already sunk a ton of effort into the first round of
Handshake messages).

Note that a server with too many connections can (and probably should)
use HTTP Alternative Services to shed load, but that won't necessarily
help in the short term.

On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 5:13 AM, Mirja K=C3=BChlewind
<mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch> wrote:
> Hi Martin,
>
> I think that could fit well in the applicability doc. If people agree, pl=
ease go ahead and file an issue or a PR.
>
> As a general note, both the applicability and the manageability statement=
s are outdated, as things are so much in move still and therefore we didn=
=E2=80=99t put effort in to sync up with every revision. As soon as things =
(especially around the wire image and handshake) have settle a bit more, we=
 will do an update.
>
> Mirja
>
>
>
>> Am 21.02.2018 um 17:39 schrieb Marten Seemann <martenseemann@gmail.com>:
>>
>> When using a socket API for a QUIC server, it can happen that there are =
more incoming connections than the server can accepts at that moment. I ima=
gine that a server will implement some sort of queue containing connections=
 that have the handshake completed. Do we need any guidance on what should =
happen when that queue is full?
>>
>> There are multiple ways how a server could handle this situation:
>>
>>       =E2=80=A2 Drop all Initial packets.
>>       =E2=80=A2 Send a CONNECTION_CLOSE as a response to an Initial.
>>       =E2=80=A2 Reply with Retries to Initial packets, but drop Handshak=
e packets.
>>       =E2=80=A2 Something more sophisticated?
>> Should we write anything about this in the spec, or is this something th=
at implementations have to figure out for themselves without any guidance?
>>
>


From nobody Thu Feb 22 02:51:29 2018
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Subject: Milestones changed for quic WG
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Changed milestone "Core Protocol document to IESG", added
draft-ietf-quic-transport to milestone.

Changed milestone "Loss detection and Congestion Control document to IESG",
added draft-ietf-quic-recovery to milestone.

Changed milestone "TLS 1.3 Mapping document to IESG", added
draft-ietf-quic-tls to milestone.

Changed milestone "HTTP/2 mapping document to IESG", added
draft-ietf-quic-http to milestone.

Changed milestone "QUIC Applicability and Manageability Statement to IESG",
added draft-ietf-quic-applicability to milestone.

URL: https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/quic/about/


From nobody Thu Feb 22 05:33:21 2018
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Changed milestone "Working group adoption of Header Compression for HTTP over
QUIC", set state to active from review, accepting new milestone.

Changed milestone "Working group adoption of Version-Independent Properties
of QUIC", set state to active from review, accepting new milestone.

Changed milestone "Version-Independent Properties of QUIC to IESG", set state
to active from review, accepting new milestone.

Changed milestone "Header Compression for HTTP over QUIC to IESG", set state
to active from review, accepting new milestone.

URL: https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/quic/about/


From nobody Thu Feb 22 07:14:07 2018
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Changed milestone "QUIC Applicability and Manageability Statement to IESG",
added draft-ietf-quic-manageability to milestone.

URL: https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/quic/about/


From nobody Sat Feb 24 16:45:23 2018
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Events without label "editorial"

Issues
------
* quicwg/base-drafts (+7/-4/=F0=9F=92=AC31)
  7 issues created:
  - QCRAM encoding requires two passes (by afrind)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1138 [-qcram] [design] =

  - qcram document title should include the term "QCRAM" (by reschke)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1133 =

  - qcram acks (by reschke)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1132 =

  - Remove BLOCKING flag and Depends (by martinthomson)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1125 [-qcram] [design] =

  - Base in header table updates (by martinthomson)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1124 [-qcram] [design] =

  - Framing QCRAM payloads (by martinthomson)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1122 [-http] [-qcram] =

  - RST_STREAM vs PROTOCOL_ERROR (by mikkelfj)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1119 =


  10 issues received 31 new comments:
  - #1128 Duplication can use different indexing (8 by martinthomson, LPard=
ue, afrind, mikkelfj)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1128 [-qcram] [design] =

  - #1121 Separate QCRAM streams (7 by martinthomson, LPardue, afrind, Mike=
Bishop)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1121 [-http] [-qcram] [des=
ign] =

  - #1125 Remove BLOCKING flag and Depends (6 by martinthomson, afrind, Mik=
eBishop)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1125 [-qcram] [design] =

  - #1118 text on retry and connection id (3 by martinthomson, mcmanus)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1118 =

  - #1127 The 32 octet overhead (2 by martinthomson, afrind)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1127 [-qcram] [design] =

  - #1124 Base in header table updates (1 by afrind)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1124 [-qcram] [design] =

  - #1095 Clarify how frames are retransmitted (1 by mikkelfj)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1095 =

  - #1105 Segmented Packet Numbers (1 by martinthomson)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1105 =

  - #910 Applications and Stream IDs (1 by martinthomson)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/910 [-http] [-transport] [=
design] =

  - #1092 Gapless Optimitisk ACK Attack Mitigation (1 by martinthomson)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1092 =


  4 issues closed:
  - Gapless Optimitisk ACK Attack Mitigation https://github.com/quicwg/base=
-drafts/issues/1092 =

  - Segmented Packet Numbers https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1=
105 =

  - HPACK relies on in-order delivery https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts=
/issues/228 [-http] [design] =

  - Clarify how frames are retransmitted https://github.com/quicwg/base-dra=
fts/issues/1095 =




Pull requests
-------------
* quicwg/base-drafts (+6/-9/=F0=9F=92=AC9)
  6 pull requests submitted:
  - Generating Acknowledgements (by ianswett)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1139 =

  - add an error code for rejecting new connections (by marten-seemann)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1137 =

  - Tls error (by huitema)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1135 =

  - qcram: remove authors from acknowledgements (by afrind)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1134 =

  - qcram: move acks to appendix and make it unnumbered (by reschke)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1131 =

  - use the 0x8 short header bit for demultiplexing gQUIC (by marten-seeman=
n)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1120 =


  7 pull requests received 9 new comments:
  - #1120 use the 0x8 short header bit for demultiplexing gQUIC (2 by marti=
nthomson, csperkins)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1120 =

  - #1135 Tls error (2 by martinthomson, huitema)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1135 =

  - #1134 qcram: remove authors from acknowledgements (1 by martinthomson)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1134 =

  - #1111 qcram: consistent formatting of range (1 by afrind)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1111 =

  - #1114 Simplify QCRAM abstract (1 by LPardue)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1114 =

  - #1117 Integrate QCRAM (1 by afrind)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1117 [-http] =

  - #1109 Invariants (1 by mnot)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1109 =


  9 pull requests merged:
  - qcram: remove authors from acknowledgements
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1134 =

  - Tls error
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1135 =

  - qcram: consistent formatting of range
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1111 =

  - qcram: section reference format
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1112 =

  - qcram: move acks to appendix and make it unnumbered
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1131 =

  - Simplify QCRAM abstract
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1114 =

  - qcram: make boilerplate consistent
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1110 =

  - Integrate QCRAM
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1117 [-http] =

  - Invariants
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1109 =



Repositories tracked by this digest:
-----------------------------------
* https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts

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</style>
</head>

<body>
<h1>Sunday February 25, 2018</h1>

<p>Events without label "editorial"</p>

<h2>Issues</h2>

<h3>quicwg/base-drafts (+7/-4/=F0=9F=92=AC31)</h3>
  <p class=3D"new">7 issues created:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#1138 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1138">Q=
CRAM encoding requires two passes</a> (by afrind) <span class=3D"label" sty=
le=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-qcram</span> <span class=
=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color: #ffffff">design</span=
> </li>
  =

  <li>#1133 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1133">q=
cram document title should include the term &quot;QCRAM&quot;</a> (by resch=
ke) </li>
  =

  <li>#1132 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1132">q=
cram acks</a> (by reschke) </li>
  =

  <li>#1125 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1125">R=
emove BLOCKING flag and Depends</a> (by martinthomson) <span class=3D"label=
" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-qcram</span> <span c=
lass=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color: #ffffff">design</=
span> </li>
  =

  <li>#1124 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1124">B=
ase in header table updates</a> (by martinthomson) <span class=3D"label" st=
yle=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-qcram</span> <span class=
=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color: #ffffff">design</span=
> </li>
  =

  <li>#1122 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1122">F=
raming QCRAM payloads</a> (by martinthomson) <span class=3D"label" style=3D=
"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-http</span> <span class=3D"lab=
el" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-qcram</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#1119 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1119">R=
ST_STREAM vs PROTOCOL_ERROR</a> (by mikkelfj) </li>
  </ul>

  <p>10 issues received 31 new comments:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#1128 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1128">D=
uplication can use different indexing</a> (8 by martinthomson, LPardue, afr=
ind, mikkelfj) <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; co=
lor: #000000">-qcram</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color=
: #1d76db; color: #ffffff">design</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#1121 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1121">S=
eparate QCRAM streams</a> (7 by martinthomson, LPardue, afrind, MikeBishop)=
 <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">=
-http</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; colo=
r: #000000">-qcram</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: =
#1d76db; color: #ffffff">design</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#1125 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1125">R=
emove BLOCKING flag and Depends</a> (6 by martinthomson, afrind, MikeBishop=
) <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000"=
>-qcram</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db; co=
lor: #ffffff">design</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#1118 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1118">t=
ext on retry and connection id</a> (3 by martinthomson, mcmanus) </li>
  =

  <li>#1127 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1127">T=
he 32 octet overhead</a> (2 by martinthomson, afrind) <span class=3D"label"=
 style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-qcram</span> <span cl=
ass=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color: #ffffff">design</s=
pan> </li>
  =

  <li>#1124 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1124">B=
ase in header table updates</a> (1 by afrind) <span class=3D"label" style=
=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-qcram</span> <span class=3D=
"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color: #ffffff">design</span> <=
/li>
  =

  <li>#1095 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1095">C=
larify how frames are retransmitted</a> (1 by mikkelfj) </li>
  =

  <li>#1105 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1105">S=
egmented Packet Numbers</a> (1 by martinthomson) </li>
  =

  <li>#910 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/910">App=
lications and Stream IDs</a> (1 by martinthomson) <span class=3D"label" sty=
le=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-http</span> <span class=
=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-transport</=
span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color: #fff=
fff">design</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#1092 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1092">G=
apless Optimitisk ACK Attack Mitigation</a> (1 by martinthomson) </li>
  </ul>

  <p>4 issues closed:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#1092 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1092">G=
apless Optimitisk ACK Attack Mitigation</a> </li>
  =

  <li>#1105 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1105">S=
egmented Packet Numbers</a> </li>
  =

  <li>#228 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/228">HPA=
CK relies on in-order delivery</a> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"backgroun=
d-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-http</span> <span class=3D"label" style=
=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color: #ffffff">design</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#1095 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1095">C=
larify how frames are retransmitted</a> </li>
  </ul>



<h2>Pull requests</h2>
<h3>quicwg/base-drafts (+6/-9/=F0=9F=92=AC9)</h3>
  <p class=3D"new">6 pull requests submitted:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#1139 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1139">Gen=
erating Acknowledgements</a> (by ianswett) </li>
  =

  <li>#1137 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1137">add=
 an error code for rejecting new connections</a> (by marten-seemann) </li>
  =

  <li>#1135 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1135">Tls=
 error</a> (by huitema) </li>
  =

  <li>#1134 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1134">qcr=
am: remove authors from acknowledgements</a> (by afrind) </li>
  =

  <li>#1131 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1131">qcr=
am: move acks to appendix and make it unnumbered</a> (by reschke) </li>
  =

  <li>#1120 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1120">use=
 the 0x8 short header bit for demultiplexing gQUIC</a> (by marten-seemann) =
</li>
  </ul>

  <p>7 pull requests received 9 new comments:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#1120 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1120">use=
 the 0x8 short header bit for demultiplexing gQUIC</a> (2 by martinthomson,=
 csperkins) </li>
  =

  <li>#1135 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1135">Tls=
 error</a> (2 by martinthomson, huitema) </li>
  =

  <li>#1134 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1134">qcr=
am: remove authors from acknowledgements</a> (1 by martinthomson) </li>
  =

  <li>#1111 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1111">qcr=
am: consistent formatting of range</a> (1 by afrind) </li>
  =

  <li>#1114 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1114">Sim=
plify QCRAM abstract</a> (1 by LPardue) </li>
  =

  <li>#1117 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1117">Int=
egrate QCRAM</a> (1 by afrind) <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-co=
lor: #fbca04; color: #000000">-http</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#1109 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1109">Inv=
ariants</a> (1 by mnot) </li>
  </ul>

  <p>9 pull requests merged:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#1134 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1134">qcr=
am: remove authors from acknowledgements</a> </li>
  =

  <li>#1135 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1135">Tls=
 error</a> </li>
  =

  <li>#1111 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1111">qcr=
am: consistent formatting of range</a> </li>
  =

  <li>#1112 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1112">qcr=
am: section reference format</a> </li>
  =

  <li>#1131 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1131">qcr=
am: move acks to appendix and make it unnumbered</a> </li>
  =

  <li>#1114 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1114">Sim=
plify QCRAM abstract</a> </li>
  =

  <li>#1110 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1110">qcr=
am: make boilerplate consistent</a> </li>
  =

  <li>#1117 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1117">Int=
egrate QCRAM</a> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; =
color: #">-http</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#1109 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1109">Inv=
ariants</a> </li>
  </ul>


<h2>Repositories tracked by this digest:</h2>
<ul class=3D"repos">
  <li><a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts">https://github.com/=
quicwg/base-drafts</a></li>
  </ul>
</body>
</html>

--===============1639984626942533518==--


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From: Marten Seemann <martenseemann@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 14:25:52 +0000
Message-ID: <CAOYVs2q1QSpvZjPRfbJmKhhQ6eApwLSSFSbbOBt2J-PAeqVELQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Unrecoverable loss pattern
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--f403043c6cb8518c2b05660a2c42
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I=E2=80=99ve been playing around with QUIC loss recovery and in my tests I=
=E2=80=99m
encountering one specific loss pattern which it seems impossible to recover
from. It's pretty rare, because there are a couple of conditions that must
be fulfilled for it to occur:

1. Client and server perform the handshake, no packets are lost so far.
Client and server both arrive at the CONNECTED state, and the server
receives all ACKs for handshake packets it sent. The client receives ACKs
for all handshake packets except for the one containing the FINISHED
message is lost (the packet containing the ACK for the FINISHED is lost).
2. The client starts using 1-RTT keys, and it sends two packets: First, a
packet only containing an ACK, and then a packet containing stream data
(e.g. a request). The request packet is then lost.
3. The server receives the ACK in the 1-RTT packet, and it stops accepting
unencrypted packets according to 6.1.2 of the TLS draft. It doesn=E2=80=99t
generate an ACK in response, since the packet only contained an ACK.
4. The client is now missing acknowledgements for two packets: the
(unencrypted) packet containing the FINISHED message, and the (1-RTT)
packet containing the request. It runs its loss recovery algorithm (
*OnLossDetectionAlarm*), and since there is one outstanding handshake
packet, it retransmit all outstanding handshake packets.

Now we=E2=80=99ve run into a situation we can=E2=80=99t recover from: The s=
erver won=E2=80=99t even
open packet sent as a retransmission (since these packets are unencrypted,
and arrive after it already received a 1-RTT packet), and the client will
never retransmit the request packet. Furthermore, the server won't send any
other packets, since it's just waiting for a request from the client.

I think the solution for this is to also retransmit 1-RTT packets in a case
like this. Can we just apply the normal retransmission rules in
*OnLossDetectionAlarm*, even if there are still handshake packets
outstanding?

--f403043c6cb8518c2b05660a2c42
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>I=E2=80=99ve been playing around with QUIC loss recov=
ery and in my tests I=E2=80=99m encountering one specific loss pattern whic=
h it seems impossible to recover from. It&#39;s pretty rare, because there =
are a couple of conditions that must be fulfilled for it to occur:</div><di=
v><br></div><div>1. Client and server perform the handshake, no packets are=
 lost so far. Client and server both arrive at the CONNECTED state, and the=
 server receives all ACKs for handshake packets it sent. The client receive=
s ACKs for all handshake packets except for the one containing the FINISHED=
 message is lost (the packet containing the ACK for the FINISHED is lost).<=
/div><div>2. The client starts using 1-RTT keys, and it sends two packets: =
First, a packet only containing an ACK, and then a packet containing stream=
 data (e.g. a request). The request packet is then lost.</div><div>3. The s=
erver receives the ACK in the 1-RTT packet, and it stops accepting unencryp=
ted packets according to 6.1.2 of the TLS draft. It doesn=E2=80=99t generat=
e an ACK in response, since the packet only contained an ACK.</div><div>4. =
The client is now missing acknowledgements for two packets: the (unencrypte=
d) packet containing the FINISHED message, and the (1-RTT) packet containin=
g the request. It runs its loss recovery algorithm (<i>OnLossDetectionAlarm=
</i>), and since there is one outstanding handshake packet, it retransmit a=
ll outstanding handshake packets.</div><div><br></div><div>Now we=E2=80=99v=
e run into a situation we can=E2=80=99t recover from: The server won=E2=80=
=99t even open packet sent as a retransmission (since these packets are une=
ncrypted, and arrive after it already received a 1-RTT packet), and the cli=
ent will never retransmit the request packet. Furthermore, the server won&#=
39;t send any other packets, since it&#39;s just waiting for a request from=
 the client.</div><div><br></div><div>I think the solution for this is to a=
lso retransmit 1-RTT packets in a case like this. Can we just apply the nor=
mal retransmission rules in=C2=A0<i>OnLossDetectionAlarm</i>, even if there=
 are still handshake packets outstanding?</div><div><br><br></div></div>

--f403043c6cb8518c2b05660a2c42--


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From: Nick Banks <nibanks@microsoft.com>
To: Marten Seemann <martenseemann@gmail.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Unrecoverable loss pattern
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From: Marten Seemann <martenseemann@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 17:02:03 +0000
Message-ID: <CAOYVs2pmmCqUFCf91VhUza962qwK734DyD86+k1TsXrb0WfCnA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Unrecoverable loss pattern
To: Nick Banks <nibanks@microsoft.com>
Cc: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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--089e082508e0e0371005660c5ac1
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
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I don=E2=80=99t think this will fix the problem. All handshake packets (sen=
t by the
server) were received by the client and acknowledged (in the first 1-RTT
packet sent by the client).

On Mon 26. Feb 2018 at 00:52, Nick Banks <nibanks@microsoft.com> wrote:

> Perhaps 6.1.2 should be changed just to say the server must continue to
> process unprotected packets until all the handshake packets are received,
> and remove the part about receiving an ACK that acknowledges its handshak=
e
> messages?
>
>
>
> - Nick
>
>
>
> *From:* QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of * Marten Seemann
> *Sent:* Sunday, February 25, 2018 6:26 AM
> *To:* QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Unrecoverable loss pattern
>
>
>
> I=E2=80=99ve been playing around with QUIC loss recovery and in my tests =
I=E2=80=99m
> encountering one specific loss pattern which it seems impossible to recov=
er
> from. It's pretty rare, because there are a couple of conditions that mus=
t
> be fulfilled for it to occur:
>
>
>
> 1. Client and server perform the handshake, no packets are lost so far.
> Client and server both arrive at the CONNECTED state, and the server
> receives all ACKs for handshake packets it sent. The client receives ACKs
> for all handshake packets except for the one containing the FINISHED
> message is lost (the packet containing the ACK for the FINISHED is lost).
>
> 2. The client starts using 1-RTT keys, and it sends two packets: First, a
> packet only containing an ACK, and then a packet containing stream data
> (e.g. a request). The request packet is then lost.
>
> 3. The server receives the ACK in the 1-RTT packet, and it stops acceptin=
g
> unencrypted packets according to 6.1.2 of the TLS draft. It doesn=E2=80=
=99t
> generate an ACK in response, since the packet only contained an ACK.
>
> 4. The client is now missing acknowledgements for two packets: the
> (unencrypted) packet containing the FINISHED message, and the (1-RTT)
> packet containing the request. It runs its loss recovery algorithm (
> *OnLossDetectionAlarm*), and since there is one outstanding handshake
> packet, it retransmit all outstanding handshake packets.
>
>
>
> Now we=E2=80=99ve run into a situation we can=E2=80=99t recover from: The=
 server won=E2=80=99t
> even open packet sent as a retransmission (since these packets are
> unencrypted, and arrive after it already received a 1-RTT packet), and th=
e
> client will never retransmit the request packet. Furthermore, the server
> won't send any other packets, since it's just waiting for a request from
> the client.
>
>
>
> I think the solution for this is to also retransmit 1-RTT packets in a
> case like this. Can we just apply the normal retransmission rules in
> *OnLossDetectionAlarm*, even if there are still handshake packets
> outstanding?
>
>
>

--089e082508e0e0371005660c5ac1
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div><span style=3D"color:rgb(49,49,49);word-spacing:1px;background-color:r=
gb(255,255,255)">I don=E2=80=99t think this will fix the problem. All hands=
hake packets (sent by the server) were received by the client and acknowled=
ged (in the first 1-RTT packet sent by the client).</span></div><div dir=3D=
"auto"><font color=3D"#313131"><span style=3D"word-spacing:1px;background-c=
olor:rgb(255,255,255)"><br></span></font><div class=3D"gmail_quote" dir=3D"=
auto"><div>On Mon 26. Feb 2018 at 00:52, Nick Banks &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:n=
ibanks@microsoft.com">nibanks@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc =
solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div class=3D"m_1899816452450193039WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Perhaps 6.1.2 should be changed just to say the serv=
er must continue to process unprotected packets until all the handshake pac=
kets are received, and remove the part about receiving an ACK that acknowle=
dges its handshake messages?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- Nick<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> QUIC &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bounces=
@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; <b>On Behalf Of =
</b>
Marten Seemann<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, February 25, 2018 6:26 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> QUIC WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">q=
uic@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Unrecoverable loss pattern<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><di=
v lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72"><div class=3D"m_1899816=
452450193039WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I=E2=80=99ve been playing around with QUIC loss reco=
very and in my tests I=E2=80=99m encountering one specific loss pattern whi=
ch it seems impossible to recover from. It&#39;s pretty rare, because there=
 are a couple of conditions that must be fulfilled for
 it to occur:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">1. Client and server perform the handshake, no packe=
ts are lost so far. Client and server both arrive at the CONNECTED state, a=
nd the server receives all ACKs for handshake packets it sent. The client r=
eceives ACKs for all handshake packets
 except for the one containing the FINISHED message is lost (the packet con=
taining the ACK for the FINISHED is lost).<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">2. The client starts using 1-RTT keys, and it sends =
two packets: First, a packet only containing an ACK, and then a packet cont=
aining stream data (e.g. a request). The request packet is then lost.<u></u=
><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">3. The server receives the ACK in the 1-RTT packet, =
and it stops accepting unencrypted packets according to 6.1.2 of the TLS dr=
aft. It doesn=E2=80=99t generate an ACK in response, since the packet only =
contained an ACK.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">4. The client is now missing acknowledgements for tw=
o packets: the (unencrypted) packet containing the FINISHED message, and th=
e (1-RTT) packet containing the request. It runs its loss recovery algorith=
m (<i>OnLossDetectionAlarm</i>), and
 since there is one outstanding handshake packet, it retransmit all outstan=
ding handshake packets.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Now we=E2=80=99ve run into a situation we can=E2=80=
=99t recover from: The server won=E2=80=99t even open packet sent as a retr=
ansmission (since these packets are unencrypted, and arrive after it alread=
y received a 1-RTT packet), and the client will never retransmit
 the request packet. Furthermore, the server won&#39;t send any other packe=
ts, since it&#39;s just waiting for a request from the client.<u></u><u></u=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think the solution for this is to also retransmit =
1-RTT packets in a case like this. Can we just apply the normal retransmiss=
ion rules in=C2=A0<i>OnLossDetectionAlarm</i>, even if there are still hand=
shake packets outstanding?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u><=
/p>
</div>
</div>
</div></div></blockquote></div></div>

--089e082508e0e0371005660c5ac1--


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From: Nick Banks <nibanks@microsoft.com>
To: Marten Seemann <martenseemann@gmail.com>
CC: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Unrecoverable loss pattern
Thread-Topic: Unrecoverable loss pattern
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Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2018 17:51:44 +0000
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Why not? Since the server didn=92t get the last handshake packet, it will c=
ontinue to process unprotected packets. So, when the client retransmits the=
 last handshake message in an unprotected packet, the server processes it. =
Then everything should continue as usual.

Sent from my Windows 10 phone
[HxS - 15254 - 16.0.9029.2104]

________________________________
From: Marten Seemann <martenseemann@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2018 9:02:03 AM
To: Nick Banks
Cc: QUIC WG
Subject: Re: Unrecoverable loss pattern

I don=92t think this will fix the problem. All handshake packets (sent by t=
he server) were received by the client and acknowledged (in the first 1-RTT=
 packet sent by the client).

On Mon 26. Feb 2018 at 00:52, Nick Banks <nibanks@microsoft.com<mailto:niba=
nks@microsoft.com>> wrote:
Perhaps 6.1.2 should be changed just to say the server must continue to pro=
cess unprotected packets until all the handshake packets are received, and =
remove the part about receiving an ACK that acknowledges its handshake mess=
ages?

- Nick

From: QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf =
Of Marten Seemann
Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2018 6:26 AM
To: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org<mailto:quic@ietf.org>>
Subject: Unrecoverable loss pattern

I=92ve been playing around with QUIC loss recovery and in my tests I=92m en=
countering one specific loss pattern which it seems impossible to recover f=
rom. It's pretty rare, because there are a couple of conditions that must b=
e fulfilled for it to occur:

1. Client and server perform the handshake, no packets are lost so far. Cli=
ent and server both arrive at the CONNECTED state, and the server receives =
all ACKs for handshake packets it sent. The client receives ACKs for all ha=
ndshake packets except for the one containing the FINISHED message is lost =
(the packet containing the ACK for the FINISHED is lost).
2. The client starts using 1-RTT keys, and it sends two packets: First, a p=
acket only containing an ACK, and then a packet containing stream data (e.g=
. a request). The request packet is then lost.
3. The server receives the ACK in the 1-RTT packet, and it stops accepting =
unencrypted packets according to 6.1.2 of the TLS draft. It doesn=92t gener=
ate an ACK in response, since the packet only contained an ACK.
4. The client is now missing acknowledgements for two packets: the (unencry=
pted) packet containing the FINISHED message, and the (1-RTT) packet contai=
ning the request. It runs its loss recovery algorithm (OnLossDetectionAlarm=
), and since there is one outstanding handshake packet, it retransmit all o=
utstanding handshake packets.

Now we=92ve run into a situation we can=92t recover from: The server won=92=
t even open packet sent as a retransmission (since these packets are unencr=
ypted, and arrive after it already received a 1-RTT packet), and the client=
 will never retransmit the request packet. Furthermore, the server won't se=
nd any other packets, since it's just waiting for a request from the client=
.

I think the solution for this is to also retransmit 1-RTT packets in a case=
 like this. Can we just apply the normal retransmission rules in OnLossDete=
ctionAlarm, even if there are still handshake packets outstanding?


--_000_BN6PR21MB017882F0266B8C6F39475D28B3C20BN6PR21MB0178namp_
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<meta name=3D"Generator" content=3D"Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)">
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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Why not? Since the server didn=92t get the last hand=
shake packet, it will continue to process unprotected packets. So, when the=
 client retransmits the last handshake message in an unprotected packet, th=
e server processes it. Then everything
 should continue as usual.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sent from my Windows 10 phone</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[HxS - 15254 - 16.0.9029.2104]</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<hr style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%" tabindex=3D"-1">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" st=
yle=3D"font-size:11pt" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> Marten Seemann &lt;ma=
rtenseemann@gmail.com&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, February 25, 2018 9:02:03 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nick Banks<br>
<b>Cc:</b> QUIC WG<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Unrecoverable loss pattern</font>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<div>
<div><span style=3D"color:rgb(49,49,49);word-spacing:1px;background-color:r=
gb(255,255,255)">I don=92t think this will fix the problem. All handshake p=
ackets (sent by the server) were received by the client and acknowledged (i=
n the first 1-RTT packet sent by the
 client).</span></div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><font color=3D"#313131"><span style=3D"word-spacing:1px;b=
ackground-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br>
</span></font>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote" dir=3D"auto">
<div>On Mon 26. Feb 2018 at 00:52, Nick Banks &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:nibanks=
@microsoft.com">nibanks@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div class=3D"m_1899816452450193039WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Perhaps 6.1.2 should be changed just to say the serv=
er must continue to process unprotected packets until all the handshake pac=
kets are received, and remove the part about receiving an ACK that acknowle=
dges its handshake messages?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- Nick<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> QUIC &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bounces=
@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Marten Seemann<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, February 25, 2018 6:26 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> QUIC WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">q=
uic@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Unrecoverable loss pattern<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div class=3D"m_1899816452450193039WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I=92ve been playing around with QUIC loss recovery a=
nd in my tests I=92m encountering one specific loss pattern which it seems =
impossible to recover from. It's pretty rare, because there are a couple of=
 conditions that must be fulfilled for
 it to occur:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">1. Client and server perform the handshake, no packe=
ts are lost so far. Client and server both arrive at the CONNECTED state, a=
nd the server receives all ACKs for handshake packets it sent. The client r=
eceives ACKs for all handshake packets
 except for the one containing the FINISHED message is lost (the packet con=
taining the ACK for the FINISHED is lost).<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">2. The client starts using 1-RTT keys, and it sends =
two packets: First, a packet only containing an ACK, and then a packet cont=
aining stream data (e.g. a request). The request packet is then lost.<u></u=
><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">3. The server receives the ACK in the 1-RTT packet, =
and it stops accepting unencrypted packets according to 6.1.2 of the TLS dr=
aft. It doesn=92t generate an ACK in response, since the packet only contai=
ned an ACK.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">4. The client is now missing acknowledgements for tw=
o packets: the (unencrypted) packet containing the FINISHED message, and th=
e (1-RTT) packet containing the request. It runs its loss recovery algorith=
m (<i>OnLossDetectionAlarm</i>), and
 since there is one outstanding handshake packet, it retransmit all outstan=
ding handshake packets.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Now we=92ve run into a situation we can=92t recover =
from: The server won=92t even open packet sent as a retransmission (since t=
hese packets are unencrypted, and arrive after it already received a 1-RTT =
packet), and the client will never retransmit
 the request packet. Furthermore, the server won't send any other packets, =
since it's just waiting for a request from the client.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think the solution for this is to also retransmit =
1-RTT packets in a case like this. Can we just apply the normal retransmiss=
ion rules in&nbsp;<i>OnLossDetectionAlarm</i>, even if there are still hand=
shake packets outstanding?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><u></u>&nbsp;<u></u><=
/p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_BN6PR21MB017882F0266B8C6F39475D28B3C20BN6PR21MB0178namp_--


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From: Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>
To: "gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk" <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>
CC: "De Schepper, Koen (Nokia - BE/Antwerp)" <koen.de_schepper@nokia-bell-labs.com>, =?utf-8?B?TWlyamEgS8O8aGxld2luZA==?= <mirja.kuehlewind@tik.ee.ethz.ch>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>, "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>, "ekinnear@apple.com" <ekinnear@apple.com>
Subject: RE: ECN in QUIC connection migration
Thread-Topic: ECN in QUIC connection migration
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From: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 09:47:39 +1100
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Subject: Re: Unrecoverable loss pattern
To: Marten Seemann <martenseemann@gmail.com>
Cc: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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I assume that this is the language you refer to:

   A server MUST process ACK frames in unprotected packets
   until the TLS handshake is reported as complete, or it receives an
   ACK frame in a protected packet that acknowledges all of its
   handshake messages.

That talks about ACK frames, not Finished.

On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 1:25 AM, Marten Seemann <martenseemann@gmail.com> w=
rote:
> I=E2=80=99ve been playing around with QUIC loss recovery and in my tests =
I=E2=80=99m
> encountering one specific loss pattern which it seems impossible to recov=
er
> from. It's pretty rare, because there are a couple of conditions that mus=
t
> be fulfilled for it to occur:
>
> 1. Client and server perform the handshake, no packets are lost so far.
> Client and server both arrive at the CONNECTED state, and the server
> receives all ACKs for handshake packets it sent. The client receives ACKs
> for all handshake packets except for the one containing the FINISHED mess=
age
> is lost (the packet containing the ACK for the FINISHED is lost).
> 2. The client starts using 1-RTT keys, and it sends two packets: First, a
> packet only containing an ACK, and then a packet containing stream data
> (e.g. a request). The request packet is then lost.
> 3. The server receives the ACK in the 1-RTT packet, and it stops acceptin=
g
> unencrypted packets according to 6.1.2 of the TLS draft. It doesn=E2=80=
=99t generate
> an ACK in response, since the packet only contained an ACK.
> 4. The client is now missing acknowledgements for two packets: the
> (unencrypted) packet containing the FINISHED message, and the (1-RTT) pac=
ket
> containing the request. It runs its loss recovery algorithm
> (OnLossDetectionAlarm), and since there is one outstanding handshake pack=
et,
> it retransmit all outstanding handshake packets.
>
> Now we=E2=80=99ve run into a situation we can=E2=80=99t recover from: The=
 server won=E2=80=99t even
> open packet sent as a retransmission (since these packets are unencrypted=
,
> and arrive after it already received a 1-RTT packet), and the client will
> never retransmit the request packet. Furthermore, the server won't send a=
ny
> other packets, since it's just waiting for a request from the client.
>
> I think the solution for this is to also retransmit 1-RTT packets in a ca=
se
> like this. Can we just apply the normal retransmission rules in
> OnLossDetectionAlarm, even if there are still handshake packets outstandi=
ng?
>
>


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From: Marten Seemann <martenseemann@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 00:58:45 +0000
Message-ID: <CAOYVs2q0q6YrFfipd7UEENoz2ht2Mr0fPqnvy5pJRz-bPxCJpw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Unrecoverable loss pattern
To: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
Cc: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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--f403043c6cb8b00ce205661303cf
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
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@Nick: The server did get all handshake packets, please see 1. in my
description. It's the server's ACK for the FINISHED message that is lost,
not the FINISHED message itself.
@Martin: Yes, it is, but I don't think there's anything problematic about
the language in this paragraph. Since the server received ACKs for all the
handshake messages it sent, it makes sense to not open unencrypted packets
any more.

On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 6:47 AM Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
wrote:

> I assume that this is the language you refer to:
>
>    A server MUST process ACK frames in unprotected packets
>    until the TLS handshake is reported as complete, or it receives an
>    ACK frame in a protected packet that acknowledges all of its
>    handshake messages.
>
> That talks about ACK frames, not Finished.
>
> On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 1:25 AM, Marten Seemann <martenseemann@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > I=E2=80=99ve been playing around with QUIC loss recovery and in my test=
s I=E2=80=99m
> > encountering one specific loss pattern which it seems impossible to
> recover
> > from. It's pretty rare, because there are a couple of conditions that
> must
> > be fulfilled for it to occur:
> >
> > 1. Client and server perform the handshake, no packets are lost so far.
> > Client and server both arrive at the CONNECTED state, and the server
> > receives all ACKs for handshake packets it sent. The client receives AC=
Ks
> > for all handshake packets except for the one containing the FINISHED
> message
> > is lost (the packet containing the ACK for the FINISHED is lost).
> > 2. The client starts using 1-RTT keys, and it sends two packets: First,=
 a
> > packet only containing an ACK, and then a packet containing stream data
> > (e.g. a request). The request packet is then lost.
> > 3. The server receives the ACK in the 1-RTT packet, and it stops
> accepting
> > unencrypted packets according to 6.1.2 of the TLS draft. It doesn=E2=80=
=99t
> generate
> > an ACK in response, since the packet only contained an ACK.
> > 4. The client is now missing acknowledgements for two packets: the
> > (unencrypted) packet containing the FINISHED message, and the (1-RTT)
> packet
> > containing the request. It runs its loss recovery algorithm
> > (OnLossDetectionAlarm), and since there is one outstanding handshake
> packet,
> > it retransmit all outstanding handshake packets.
> >
> > Now we=E2=80=99ve run into a situation we can=E2=80=99t recover from: T=
he server won=E2=80=99t
> even
> > open packet sent as a retransmission (since these packets are
> unencrypted,
> > and arrive after it already received a 1-RTT packet), and the client wi=
ll
> > never retransmit the request packet. Furthermore, the server won't send
> any
> > other packets, since it's just waiting for a request from the client.
> >
> > I think the solution for this is to also retransmit 1-RTT packets in a
> case
> > like this. Can we just apply the normal retransmission rules in
> > OnLossDetectionAlarm, even if there are still handshake packets
> outstanding?
> >
> >
>

--f403043c6cb8b00ce205661303cf
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><span style=3D"font-size:small">@Nick: The server did get =
all handshake packets, please see 1. in my description. It&#39;s the server=
&#39;s ACK for the FINISHED message that is lost, not the FINISHED message =
itself.</span><br class=3D"m_-5499679069796911833inbox-inbox-Apple-intercha=
nge-newline"><div><span style=3D"font-size:small">@Martin: Yes, it is, but =
I don&#39;t think there&#39;s anything problematic about the language in th=
is paragraph. Since the server received ACKs for all the handshake messages=
 it sent, it makes sense to not open unencrypted packets any more.</span></=
div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at=
 6:47 AM Martin Thomson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.thomson@gmail.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">martin.thomson@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc soli=
d;padding-left:1ex">I assume that this is the language you refer to:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0A server MUST process ACK frames in unprotected packets<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0until the TLS handshake is reported as complete, or it receive=
s an<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0ACK frame in a protected packet that acknowledges all of its<b=
r>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0handshake messages.<br>
<br>
That talks about ACK frames, not Finished.<br>
<br>
On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 1:25 AM, Marten Seemann &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:marte=
nseemann@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">martenseemann@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote=
:<br>
&gt; I=E2=80=99ve been playing around with QUIC loss recovery and in my tes=
ts I=E2=80=99m<br>
&gt; encountering one specific loss pattern which it seems impossible to re=
cover<br>
&gt; from. It&#39;s pretty rare, because there are a couple of conditions t=
hat must<br>
&gt; be fulfilled for it to occur:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; 1. Client and server perform the handshake, no packets are lost so far=
.<br>
&gt; Client and server both arrive at the CONNECTED state, and the server<b=
r>
&gt; receives all ACKs for handshake packets it sent. The client receives A=
CKs<br>
&gt; for all handshake packets except for the one containing the FINISHED m=
essage<br>
&gt; is lost (the packet containing the ACK for the FINISHED is lost).<br>
&gt; 2. The client starts using 1-RTT keys, and it sends two packets: First=
, a<br>
&gt; packet only containing an ACK, and then a packet containing stream dat=
a<br>
&gt; (e.g. a request). The request packet is then lost.<br>
&gt; 3. The server receives the ACK in the 1-RTT packet, and it stops accep=
ting<br>
&gt; unencrypted packets according to 6.1.2 of the TLS draft. It doesn=E2=
=80=99t generate<br>
&gt; an ACK in response, since the packet only contained an ACK.<br>
&gt; 4. The client is now missing acknowledgements for two packets: the<br>
&gt; (unencrypted) packet containing the FINISHED message, and the (1-RTT) =
packet<br>
&gt; containing the request. It runs its loss recovery algorithm<br>
&gt; (OnLossDetectionAlarm), and since there is one outstanding handshake p=
acket,<br>
&gt; it retransmit all outstanding handshake packets.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Now we=E2=80=99ve run into a situation we can=E2=80=99t recover from: =
The server won=E2=80=99t even<br>
&gt; open packet sent as a retransmission (since these packets are unencryp=
ted,<br>
&gt; and arrive after it already received a 1-RTT packet), and the client w=
ill<br>
&gt; never retransmit the request packet. Furthermore, the server won&#39;t=
 send any<br>
&gt; other packets, since it&#39;s just waiting for a request from the clie=
nt.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I think the solution for this is to also retransmit 1-RTT packets in a=
 case<br>
&gt; like this. Can we just apply the normal retransmission rules in<br>
&gt; OnLossDetectionAlarm, even if there are still handshake packets outsta=
nding?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
</blockquote></div></div>

--f403043c6cb8b00ce205661303cf--


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From: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
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Subject: Re: Unrecoverable loss pattern
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On 2/25/2018 4:58 PM, Marten Seemann wrote:

> @Nick: The server did get all handshake packets, please see 1. in my
> description. It's the server's ACK for the FINISHED message that is
> lost, not the FINISHED message itself.
> @Martin: Yes, it is, but I don't think there's anything problematic
> about the language in this paragraph. Since the server received ACKs
> for all the handshake messages it sent, it makes sense to not open
> unencrypted packets any more.

See https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/829 and
https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1018 for=C2=A0 discussion of=

related issues.

Picoquic manages these issues by handling "ACK of ACK". Normally, it
will send ACK frames that acknowledge all packets received so far,
potentially with a long list of ACK ranges. So if an ACK is lost, the
next ACK will repeat the information that it carried. The list is only
pruned when an "ACK of ACK" is received.

In your example, if the FINISHED message is not acknowledged, the client
will retransmit the stream zero data containing the FINISHED message in
a new Handshake packet. The server will have to send an ACK of that
packet, and the ACK range will also cover the previous packet. There is
no problem for sending that ACK. You cannot acknowledge a protected
packet in a clear text message, but nothing prevents you from
acknowledging clear text packets in protected messages.

-- Christian Huitema

--------------DECB6CD3F32DDBD8B2F0FD86
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<html>
  <head>
    <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
  </head>
  <body text="#000000" bgcolor="#FFFFFF">
    <p>On 2/25/2018 4:58 PM, Marten Seemann wrote:<br>
    </p>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAOYVs2q0q6YrFfipd7UEENoz2ht2Mr0fPqnvy5pJRz-bPxCJpw@mail.gmail.com"><span
        style="font-size:small">@Nick: The server did get all handshake
        packets, please see 1. in my description. It's the server's ACK
        for the FINISHED message that is lost, not the FINISHED message
        itself.</span><br
        class="m_-5499679069796911833inbox-inbox-Apple-interchange-newline">
      <div><span style="font-size:small">@Martin: Yes, it is, but I
          don't think there's anything problematic about the language in
          this paragraph. Since the server received ACKs for all the
          handshake messages it sent, it makes sense to not open
          unencrypted packets any more.</span></div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    See <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/829">https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/829</a> and
    <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1018">https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1018</a> for  discussion of
    related issues.<br>
    <br>
    Picoquic manages these issues by handling "ACK of ACK". Normally, it
    will send ACK frames that acknowledge all packets received so far,
    potentially with a long list of ACK ranges. So if an ACK is lost,
    the next ACK will repeat the information that it carried. The list
    is only pruned when an "ACK of ACK" is received.<br>
    <br>
    In your example, if the FINISHED message is not acknowledged, the
    client will retransmit the stream zero data containing the FINISHED
    message in a new Handshake packet. The server will have to send an
    ACK of that packet, and the ACK range will also cover the previous
    packet. There is no problem for sending that ACK. You cannot
    acknowledge a protected packet in a clear text message, but nothing
    prevents you from acknowledging clear text packets in protected
    messages.<br>
    <br>
    -- Christian Huitema<br>
  </body>
</html>

--------------DECB6CD3F32DDBD8B2F0FD86--


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From: Marten Seemann <martenseemann@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 01:30:51 +0000
Message-ID: <CAOYVs2ogy77tjE+e9_mj6YNYcsDP0iduUKsE-_JnMrOeo4jVbQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Unrecoverable loss pattern
To: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
Cc: quic@ietf.org
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--94eb2c07d90a7ecee405661376f1
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

The problem is that the server will not open the unencrypted packet
containing the retransmission of the FINISHED, since it already completed
the handshake AND received ACKs for all its handshake packets. We *could*
fix this problem by making the server accept unencrypted packets
indefinitely, but this comes with a whole range of problems of
man-on-the-side attacks.

On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 9:20 AM Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
wrote:

> On 2/25/2018 4:58 PM, Marten Seemann wrote:
>
> @Nick: The server did get all handshake packets, please see 1. in my
> description. It's the server's ACK for the FINISHED message that is lost,
> not the FINISHED message itself.
> @Martin: Yes, it is, but I don't think there's anything problematic about
> the language in this paragraph. Since the server received ACKs for all the
> handshake messages it sent, it makes sense to not open unencrypted packets
> any more.
>
>
> See https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/829 and
> https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1018 for  discussion of
> related issues.
>
> Picoquic manages these issues by handling "ACK of ACK". Normally, it will
> send ACK frames that acknowledge all packets received so far, potentially
> with a long list of ACK ranges. So if an ACK is lost, the next ACK will
> repeat the information that it carried. The list is only pruned when an
> "ACK of ACK" is received.
>
> In your example, if the FINISHED message is not acknowledged, the client
> will retransmit the stream zero data containing the FINISHED message in a
> new Handshake packet. The server will have to send an ACK of that packet,
> and the ACK range will also cover the previous packet. There is no problem
> for sending that ACK. You cannot acknowledge a protected packet in a clear
> text message, but nothing prevents you from acknowledging clear text
> packets in protected messages.
>
>
> -- Christian Huitema
>

--94eb2c07d90a7ecee405661376f1
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">The problem is that the server will not open the unencrypt=
ed packet containing the retransmission of the FINISHED, since it already c=
ompleted the handshake AND received ACKs for all its handshake packets. We =
*could* fix this problem by making the server accept unencrypted packets in=
definitely, but this comes with a whole range of problems of man-on-the-sid=
e attacks.</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Mon, Feb=
 26, 2018 at 9:20 AM Christian Huitema &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:huitema@huitem=
a.net">huitema@huitema.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-lef=
t:1ex"><div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
    <p>On 2/25/2018 4:58 PM, Marten Seemann wrote:<br>
    </p>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite"><span style=3D"font-size:small">@Nick: The se=
rver did get all handshake
        packets, please see 1. in my description. It&#39;s the server&#39;s=
 ACK
        for the FINISHED message that is lost, not the FINISHED message
        itself.</span><br class=3D"m_2170287445001971467m_-5499679069796911=
833inbox-inbox-Apple-interchange-newline">
      <div><span style=3D"font-size:small">@Martin: Yes, it is, but I
          don&#39;t think there&#39;s anything problematic about the langua=
ge in
          this paragraph. Since the server received ACKs for all the
          handshake messages it sent, it makes sense to not open
          unencrypted packets any more.</span></div>
    </blockquote>
    <br></div><div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF">
    See <a class=3D"m_2170287445001971467moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"htt=
ps://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/829" target=3D"_blank">https://gi=
thub.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/829</a> and
    <a class=3D"m_2170287445001971467moz-txt-link-freetext" href=3D"https:/=
/github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1018" target=3D"_blank">https://githu=
b.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1018</a> for=C2=A0 discussion of
    related issues.<br>
    <br>
    Picoquic manages these issues by handling &quot;ACK of ACK&quot;. Norma=
lly, it
    will send ACK frames that acknowledge all packets received so far,
    potentially with a long list of ACK ranges. So if an ACK is lost,
    the next ACK will repeat the information that it carried. The list
    is only pruned when an &quot;ACK of ACK&quot; is received.<br>
    <br>
    In your example, if the FINISHED message is not acknowledged, the
    client will retransmit the stream zero data containing the FINISHED
    message in a new Handshake packet. The server will have to send an
    ACK of that packet, and the ACK range will also cover the previous
    packet. There is no problem for sending that ACK. You cannot
    acknowledge a protected packet in a clear text message, but nothing
    prevents you from acknowledging clear text packets in protected
    messages.</div><div text=3D"#000000" bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><br>
    <br>
    -- Christian Huitema<br>
  </div></blockquote></div>

--94eb2c07d90a7ecee405661376f1--


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From: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 13:07:46 +1100
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Subject: Re: Unrecoverable loss pattern
To: Marten Seemann <martenseemann@gmail.com>
Cc: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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Yes, this is a real issue.  It arises because the packet that would
normally trigger loss detection for the request packet (the ACK for
the Finished) never gets sent because the server believes the client
to be quiescent.  The server believes that because it discards the
cleartext packets that it receives.

Client sends ...., Finished, ACK, Y. Then Y is lost.  Server
acknowledges up to Finished, but this acknowledgment is lost. Client
detects loss of the Finished.  It does this on a timer, because if the
server was sending data, the client would receive the ACK for the
Finished and things would work out.

If the handshake wasn't special, the client would send Finished again
using the 1-RTT keys, and this wouldn't be a problem.  But in this
case it resends Finished in a new packet and the server throws that
away.  The client never does TLP or RTO for Y.  See
<https://quicwg.github.io/base-drafts/draft-ietf-quic-recovery.html#rfc.section.3.4.7.4>
for that algorithm.

The general case is a little worrying: as long as the Finished is
outstanding, the client will not repair loss from other packets (see
<https://quicwg.github.io/base-drafts/draft-ietf-quic-recovery.html#rfc.section.3.4.8>).

You might consider this failing to be a result of trying to compose
the various timers into a single alarm.  This wouldn't be a problem if
the RTO and TLP for ordinary packets proceeded as normal.  One extra
timer during the handshake isn't that much additional burden.  But
maybe there is a more elegant solution.

On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 12:30 PM, Marten Seemann
<martenseemann@gmail.com> wrote:
> The problem is that the server will not open the unencrypted packet
> containing the retransmission of the FINISHED, since it already completed
> the handshake AND received ACKs for all its handshake packets. We *could*
> fix this problem by making the server accept unencrypted packets
> indefinitely, but this comes with a whole range of problems of
> man-on-the-side attacks.
>
> On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 9:20 AM Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
> wrote:
>>
>> On 2/25/2018 4:58 PM, Marten Seemann wrote:
>>
>> @Nick: The server did get all handshake packets, please see 1. in my
>> description. It's the server's ACK for the FINISHED message that is lost,
>> not the FINISHED message itself.
>> @Martin: Yes, it is, but I don't think there's anything problematic about
>> the language in this paragraph. Since the server received ACKs for all the
>> handshake messages it sent, it makes sense to not open unencrypted packets
>> any more.
>>
>>
>> See https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/829 and
>> https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1018 for  discussion of related
>> issues.
>>
>> Picoquic manages these issues by handling "ACK of ACK". Normally, it will
>> send ACK frames that acknowledge all packets received so far, potentially
>> with a long list of ACK ranges. So if an ACK is lost, the next ACK will
>> repeat the information that it carried. The list is only pruned when an "ACK
>> of ACK" is received.
>>
>> In your example, if the FINISHED message is not acknowledged, the client
>> will retransmit the stream zero data containing the FINISHED message in a
>> new Handshake packet. The server will have to send an ACK of that packet,
>> and the ACK range will also cover the previous packet. There is no problem
>> for sending that ACK. You cannot acknowledge a protected packet in a clear
>> text message, but nothing prevents you from acknowledging clear text packets
>> in protected messages.
>>
>>
>> -- Christian Huitema


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From: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
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On 2/25/2018 6:07 PM, Martin Thomson wrote:

> Yes, this is a real issue.  It arises because the packet that would
> normally trigger loss detection for the request packet (the ACK for
> the Finished) never gets sent because the server believes the client
> to be quiescent.  The server believes that because it discards the
> cleartext packets that it receives.
We debated that with issue #1018
(https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1018). At the time, we saw
two options:

1) Allow the "finished" message to be transmitted in 1-RTT protected
packets. This was nixed because it seems to interfere with the formal
proofs of TLS 1.3.

2) Allow the server to accept retransmission of handshake packets
intermixed with 1-RTT protected packet. Clearly, this open a DOS attack,
as third parties can now inject such packets, consume packet numbers,
and possibly cause good data to be dropped.

I was not aware that the spec pushed a third alternative, to mandate
that the server to just drop handshake packets after receiving the first
copy of the finished message. As Marten says, that puts the client in a
bad position if the first ACK is lost and the server is silent after that=
=2E

The solution might be to send a "Finished received" frame in the
protected data flow, and require an ACK for that frame. That way, the
problem would really be solved.

-- Christian Huitema









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Subject: Re: Unrecoverable loss pattern
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> The solution might be to send a "Finished received" frame in the
protected data flow, and require an ACK for that frame. That way, the
problem would really be solved.

That is sort of a handshake of the handshake, but I like the idea.
Could that somehow extend to 0-RTT as a more general concept?

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<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><span style=3D"font-=
family:&quot;helvetica Neue&quot;,helvetica;font-size:14px">&gt; The soluti=
on might be to send a &quot;Finished received&quot; frame in the=C2=A0</spa=
n><br style=3D"font-family:&quot;helvetica Neue&quot;,helvetica;font-size:1=
4px"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;helvetica Neue&quot;,helvetica;font-s=
ize:14px">protected data flow, and require an ACK for that frame. That way,=
 the=C2=A0</span><br style=3D"font-family:&quot;helvetica Neue&quot;,helvet=
ica;font-size:14px"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;helvetica Neue&quot;,h=
elvetica;font-size:14px">problem would really be solved.=C2=A0</span><br st=
yle=3D"font-family:&quot;helvetica Neue&quot;,helvetica;font-size:14px"></d=
iv> <div id=3D"bloop_sign_1519630336616706816" class=3D"bloop_sign"><div st=
yle=3D"font-family:helvetica,arial;font-size:13px"><br></div><div style=3D"=
font-size:13px">That is sort of a handshake of the handshake, but I like th=
e idea.</div><div style=3D"font-size:13px">Could that somehow extend to 0-R=
TT as a more general concept?</div></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D=
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ext-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word=
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Subject: Re: Unrecoverable loss pattern
To: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>,  Marten Seemann <martenseemann@gmail.com>
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--001a113eda8a29fc4f0566189312
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Another thing:

The concept might be more general handover in path-migration, multi-path,
visible path specific sequence numbers, and rekeying.
Rather than having 7 or so different constructs, there might be an
underlying principle called handoff?

Kind Regards,
Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen


On 26 February 2018 at 08.33.48, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen (mikkelf=
j@gmail.com)
wrote:

> The solution might be to send a "Finished received" frame in the
protected data flow, and require an ACK for that frame. That way, the
problem would really be solved.

That is sort of a handshake of the handshake, but I like the idea.
Could that somehow extend to 0-RTT as a more general concept?

--001a113eda8a29fc4f0566189312
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<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">Another thing:</div>=
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=
=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;c=
olor:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">The concept might be more=
 general handover in path-migration, multi-path, visible path specific sequ=
ence numbers, and rekeying.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font=
-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;lin=
e-height:auto">Rather than having 7 or so different constructs, there might=
 be an underlying principle called handoff?</div> <br> <div id=3D"bloop_sig=
n_1519630459214218240" class=3D"bloop_sign"><div style=3D"font-family:helve=
tica,arial;font-size:13px">Kind Regards,</div><div style=3D"font-family:hel=
vetica,arial;font-size:13px">Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen<br><br></div=
></div> <br><p class=3D"airmail_on">On 26 February 2018 at 08.33.48, Mikkel=
 Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen (<a href=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com">mikkelfj=
@gmail.com</a>) wrote:</p> <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq"><sp=
an><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><div></=
div><div>




<title></title>



<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;helvetica Neue&quot;,helvetica;font-size:1=
4px">
&gt; The solution might be to send a &quot;Finished received&quot; frame in
the=C2=A0</span><br style=3D"font-family:&quot;helvetica Neue&quot;,helveti=
ca;font-size:14px">

<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;helvetica Neue&quot;,helvetica;font-size:1=
4px">
protected data flow, and require an ACK for that frame. That way,
the=C2=A0</span><br style=3D"font-family:&quot;helvetica Neue&quot;,helveti=
ca;font-size:14px">

<span style=3D"font-family:&quot;helvetica Neue&quot;,helvetica;font-size:1=
4px">
problem would really be solved.=C2=A0</span><br style=3D"font-family:&quot;=
helvetica Neue&quot;,helvetica;font-size:14px">
</div>
<div id=3D"bloop_sign_1519630336616706816" class=3D"bloop_sign">
<div style=3D"font-family:helvetica,arial;font-size:13px">
<br></div>
<div style=3D"font-size:13px">That is sort of a handshake of the
handshake, but I like the idea.</div>
<div style=3D"font-size:13px">Could that somehow extend to 0-RTT as
a more general concept?</div>
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq">
<div>
<div class=3D"bloop_toggle" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:&quot;hel=
vetica Neue&quot;,helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-c=
aps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-i=
ndent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>


</div></div></span></blockquote></body></html>

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From nobody Mon Feb 26 00:51:49 2018
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From: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 19:51:37 +1100
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Subject: Re: Unrecoverable loss pattern
To: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
Cc: Marten Seemann <martenseemann@gmail.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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The issue in #1018 (as I understood it) was the fact that Finished
could be protected (and thereby authenticated), but it was not.  Not
having it protected makes it vulnerable to all sorts of attack.

This is different, it's not an attack, it's just an unfortunate
interaction between the loss recovery algorithms and the TLS mapping.

Other than running multiple timers as I suggested, you could also
force the server to respond to cleartext packets with a repeat of its
ACK.  It doesn't even have to look at what it received, it just plays
out the last ACK.  That's what we do in our DTLS 1.3 implementation.
It works.  The trick there is that once you have an ACK for the ACKs
that acknowledge the handshake you stop the special behaviour.




On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 6:28 PM, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net> wrote:
> On 2/25/2018 6:07 PM, Martin Thomson wrote:
>
>> Yes, this is a real issue.  It arises because the packet that would
>> normally trigger loss detection for the request packet (the ACK for
>> the Finished) never gets sent because the server believes the client
>> to be quiescent.  The server believes that because it discards the
>> cleartext packets that it receives.
> We debated that with issue #1018
> (https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1018). At the time, we saw
> two options:
>
> 1) Allow the "finished" message to be transmitted in 1-RTT protected
> packets. This was nixed because it seems to interfere with the formal
> proofs of TLS 1.3.
>
> 2) Allow the server to accept retransmission of handshake packets
> intermixed with 1-RTT protected packet. Clearly, this open a DOS attack,
> as third parties can now inject such packets, consume packet numbers,
> and possibly cause good data to be dropped.
>
> I was not aware that the spec pushed a third alternative, to mandate
> that the server to just drop handshake packets after receiving the first
> copy of the finished message. As Marten says, that puts the client in a
> bad position if the first ACK is lost and the server is silent after that.
>
> The solution might be to send a "Finished received" frame in the
> protected data flow, and require an ACK for that frame. That way, the
> problem would really be solved.
>
> -- Christian Huitema
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


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To: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
Cc: Marten Seemann <martenseemann@gmail.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
References: <CAOYVs2q1QSpvZjPRfbJmKhhQ6eApwLSSFSbbOBt2J-PAeqVELQ@mail.gmail.com> <CABkgnnWuXJb2_BcfU4N=ODwy5JDZKBBd6TyhFmXLbPgVrvCoEA@mail.gmail.com> <CAOYVs2q0q6YrFfipd7UEENoz2ht2Mr0fPqnvy5pJRz-bPxCJpw@mail.gmail.com> <059bc7c6-a8cb-c46b-c971-333b9051c222@huitema.net> <CAOYVs2ogy77tjE+e9_mj6YNYcsDP0iduUKsE-_JnMrOeo4jVbQ@mail.gmail.com> <CABkgnnVLdKiaEDdGKjLXB9wNZ8vxvV_ZyJQnLAR4VxsjUDvjyg@mail.gmail.com> <f62726b4-564a-4e45-726b-63705753ddf2@huitema.net> <CABkgnnU78mE55N9KHx2FqR6AvthyM86-+zG-VknQ3tfpeKh=Gw@mail.gmail.com>
From: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
Message-ID: <9d646ca7-2c95-62fd-206f-10ec6ce4cd5d@huitema.net>
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2018 10:44:51 -0800
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Subject: Re: Unrecoverable loss pattern
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On 2/26/2018 12:51 AM, Martin Thomson wrote:
> The issue in #1018 (as I understood it) was the fact that Finished
> could be protected (and thereby authenticated), but it was not.  Not
> having it protected makes it vulnerable to all sorts of attack.
>
> This is different, it's not an attack, it's just an unfortunate
> interaction between the loss recovery algorithms and the TLS mapping.

Actually, the issue was that allowing Finished to be repeated in clear
text allows for a DOS attack on the server. The spec changed to ignore
handshake packets after Finished is received once. That closes the DOS
issue, but it opens the "ACK of Finished" issue.
=C2=A0
>
> Other than running multiple timers as I suggested, you could also
> force the server to respond to cleartext packets with a repeat of its
> ACK.  It doesn't even have to look at what it received, it just plays
> out the last ACK.  That's what we do in our DTLS 1.3 implementation.
> It works.  The trick there is that once you have an ACK for the ACKs
> that acknowledge the handshake you stop the special behaviour.
>
That was actually the first solution I thought off. That works too, but
there are two downsides. First, you get a "twitch trigger" -- send an
handshake packet, get the server to send an ACK. Not a very big deal,
but slightly annoying. Second, it relies not only on implementing ACK of
ACK, but also on triggering a special behavior for the ACK of the ACK of
the last handshake packet. Many implementations do ACK of ACK
management, but grafting a special case in that path is a bit tricky.
That was my thought process before proposing a simple one byte
"handshake complete" frame. The special frame is easier to integrate in
the receive processing.

-- Christian Huitema


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From: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
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Subject: Testing the proposed PRs in a timely fashion
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There are a couple of PR in the queue that could bring big changes to
transport implementations: the proposed changes in the Connection ID
from 8 to 17 bytes; the proposed encryption of packet numbers; the
extension mechanism; and the proposed redefinition of the migration
mechanism. Such changes are very likely to require interop testing, both
to verify that the specs work as proposed, and to find and correct
implementation bugs. That will take time. I am also worried that if we
check in all these PR at once, we will destabilize the implementations.

My proposal is to pick some but not all of these PR and integrate them
in the next iteration of the transport draft, so we can start interop
testing. If I had to start somewhere, I would start with the path
migration PR. It seems close to ready, it requires significant coding,
and it replaces the PING/PONG mechanism that we would rather forget and
not implement. Path migration also requires some testing infrastructure,
such as opening multiple sockets on the client and migrating the
connection from one to the other. Not hard to do, but requires some time
to get it right, so the sooner we start the better.

What do other developers think?

-- Christian Huitema



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From: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: Testing the proposed PRs in a timely fashion
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The 17-byte thing seems unlikely to be adopted.  Based on the outcome
of the design team discussion, a double connection ID mechanism is
more likely.

As for merging, I think that we are close to merging the migration PR.
It's mostly editorial issues that are holding it back now.

On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 6:19 AM, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net> wrote:
> There are a couple of PR in the queue that could bring big changes to
> transport implementations: the proposed changes in the Connection ID
> from 8 to 17 bytes; the proposed encryption of packet numbers; the
> extension mechanism; and the proposed redefinition of the migration
> mechanism. Such changes are very likely to require interop testing, both
> to verify that the specs work as proposed, and to find and correct
> implementation bugs. That will take time. I am also worried that if we
> check in all these PR at once, we will destabilize the implementations.
>
> My proposal is to pick some but not all of these PR and integrate them
> in the next iteration of the transport draft, so we can start interop
> testing. If I had to start somewhere, I would start with the path
> migration PR. It seems close to ready, it requires significant coding,
> and it replaces the PING/PONG mechanism that we would rather forget and
> not implement. Path migration also requires some testing infrastructure,
> such as opening multiple sockets on the client and migrating the
> connection from one to the other. Not hard to do, but requires some time
> to get it right, so the sooner we start the better.
>
> What do other developers think?
>
> -- Christian Huitema
>
>


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From: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
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Subject: Re: Testing the proposed PRs in a timely fashion
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On 2/26/2018 2:57 PM, Martin Thomson wrote:

> The 17-byte thing seems unlikely to be adopted.  Based on the outcome
> of the design team discussion, a double connection ID mechanism is
> more likely.

Yes. But then moving to double connection ID of variable length is also
going to require serious development and testing effort. To evaluate
that, I changed the "connection_id" type in Picoquic from uint64_t to an
opaque type. This was not simple, since the connection ID is used pretty
much every where, not just in protocol code but also in logging code,
test code, and of course test vectors. And doing that caused a couple
regression bugs, which I only found weeks later. Of course I am sure
that other developers can do it better, but still, they will need time
to work it out.=C2=A0 If we want to be done in November, we may want to t=
est
that kind of stuff sooner rather than later.
> As for merging, I think that we are close to merging the migration PR.
> It's mostly editorial issues that are holding it back now.

Cool. Do you think we could have that spec merged before the London
meeting? Or should we start preparing for interop days in April and May?

-- Christian Huitema


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From: Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: Testing the proposed PRs in a timely fashion
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On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 10:50 AM, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net> wrote:
> Cool. Do you think we could have that spec merged before the London
> meeting? Or should we start preparing for interop days in April and May?

I hope so.  That depends a little on Jana though.  I've been holding
-10 for it, because it seems like a good thing to put into something
more concrete.

I would prepare for more interop days no matter what.  I'm not yet
confident that we're at the point of people deploying code and until
that happens, these events are what we've got.


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Subject: Re: Testing the proposed PRs in a timely fashion
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On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 4:05 PM, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 10:50 AM, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
> wrote:
> > Cool. Do you think we could have that spec merged before the London
> > meeting? Or should we start preparing for interop days in April and May?
>
> I hope so.  That depends a little on Jana though.  I've been holding
> -10 for it, because it seems like a good thing to put into something
> more concrete.
>

I've been in a bit of a lull the past week, but climbing out of it now. I
am hoping to address comments on the PR today, and I think there's enough
momentum in the wg to get it to merge soon. That said ...


I would prepare for more interop days no matter what.  I'm not yet
> confident that we're at the point of people deploying code and until
> that happens, these events are what we've got.
>

... I agree with this. We have a number of moving pieces, and -10 isn't the
end of it. The more interops we have, the faster we move towards spec
maturity, which we sorely need.

--f403045f14e81bfc35056638b4c6
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On M=
on, Feb 26, 2018 at 4:05 PM, Martin Thomson <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:martin.thomson@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">martin.thomson@gmail=
.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D=
"">On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 10:50 AM, Christian Huitema &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:huitema@huitema.net">huitema@huitema.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; Cool. Do you think we could have that spec merged before the London<br=
>
&gt; meeting? Or should we start preparing for interop days in April and Ma=
y?<br>
<br>
</span>I hope so.=C2=A0 That depends a little on Jana though.=C2=A0 I&#39;v=
e been holding<br>
-10 for it, because it seems like a good thing to put into something<br>
more concrete.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I&#39;ve been in a bit o=
f a lull the past week, but climbing out of it now. I am hoping to address =
comments on the PR today, and I think there&#39;s enough momentum in the wg=
 to get it to merge soon. That said ...</div><div><br></div><div><br></div>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
I would prepare for more interop days no matter what.=C2=A0 I&#39;m not yet=
<br>
confident that we&#39;re at the point of people deploying code and until<br=
>
that happens, these events are what we&#39;ve got.<br></blockquote><div><br=
></div><div>... I agree with this. We have a number of moving pieces, and -=
10 isn&#39;t the end of it. The more interops we have, the faster we move t=
owards spec maturity, which we sorely need.</div></div><br></div></div>

--f403045f14e81bfc35056638b4c6--


From nobody Tue Feb 27 15:13:02 2018
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Subject: quic - Requested sessions have been scheduled for IETF 101
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Dear Lars Eggert,

The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled.
Below is the scheduled session information followed by
the original request. 

quic Session 1 (2:30:00)
    Thursday, Morning Session I 0930-1200
    Room Name: Sandringham size: 300
    ---------------------------------------------
    quic Session 2 (2:30:00)
    Monday, Afternoon Session I 1330-1530
    Room Name: Sandringham size: 300
    ---------------------------------------------
    


Request Information:


---------------------------------------------------------
Working Group Name: QUIC
Area Name: Transport Area
Session Requester: Lars Eggert

Number of Sessions: 2
Length of Session(s):  2.5 Hours, 2.5 Hours
Number of Attendees: 200
Conflicts to Avoid: 
 First Priority: tsvarea tsvwg tcpm iccrg httpbis tls dispatch
 Second Priority: mptcp saag
 Third Priority: irtfopen maprg


People who must be present:
  Sean Turner
  Mark Nottingham
  Patrick R. McManus
  Jana Iyengar
  Martin Thomson
  Spencer Dawkins
  Lars Eggert
  Mike Bishop
  Ian Swett

Resources Requested:
  Experimental Room Setup (U-Shape and classroom, subject to availability)

Special Requests:
  Two consecutive days early in the week, if possible; 2 hour slot(s) fine too, if that makes it easier.
---------------------------------------------------------


From nobody Tue Feb 27 21:20:37 2018
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the QUIC WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Version-Independent Properties of QUIC
        Author          : Martin Thomson
	Filename        : draft-ietf-quic-invariants-00.txt
	Pages           : 9
	Date            : 2018-02-27

Abstract:
   This document defines the properties of the QUIC transport protocol
   that are expected to remain unchanged over time as new versions of
   the protocol are developed.

Note to Readers

   Discussion of this draft takes place on the QUIC working group
   mailing list (quic@ietf.org), which is archived at
   https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?email_list=quic [1].

   Working Group information can be found at https://github.com/quicwg
   [2]; source code and issues list for this draft can be found at
   https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/labels/-invariants [3].


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-quic-invariants/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-quic-invariants-00
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-quic-invariants-00


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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Subject: Space for Packet Metadata
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--001a1143b9b03fc70e0566414bad
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Would it make sense to reserve space for additional metadata by reducing
the required initial packet size to, say 1000 octets in order to allow for
a smaller PMTU than the actual PMTU?

This could simplify tunnelling and monitoring, and also other cases where
multiple servers cooperate on handling a single connection.

Kind Regards,
Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen

--001a1143b9b03fc70e0566414bad
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<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">Would it make sense =
to reserve space for additional metadata by reducing the required initial p=
acket size to, say 1000 octets in order to allow for a smaller PMTU than th=
e actual PMTU?</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helve=
tica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto=
"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Ari=
al;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">This c=
ould simplify tunnelling and monitoring, and also other cases where multipl=
e servers cooperate on handling a single connection.</div><br><div id=3D"bl=
oop_sign_1519805234639226880" class=3D"bloop_sign"><div style=3D"font-famil=
y:helvetica,arial;font-size:13px">Kind Regards,</div><div style=3D"font-fam=
ily:helvetica,arial;font-size:13px">Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen<br><b=
r></div></div></body></html>

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Subject: Re: Space for Packet Metadata
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On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 12:11 AM, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen <
mikkelfj@gmail.com> wrote:

> Would it make sense to reserve space for additional metadata by reducing
> the required initial packet size to, say 1000 octets in order to allow fo=
r
> a smaller PMTU than the actual PMTU?
>
> This could simplify tunnelling and monitoring, and also other cases where
> multiple servers cooperate on handling a single connection.
>

How do you imagine those servers would use this space?

-Ekr


> Kind Regards,
> Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On W=
ed, Feb 28, 2018 at 12:11 AM, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mikkel=
fj@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div s=
tyle=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><div id=3D"m_569=
0822405323584871bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font=
-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">Would it make=
 sense to reserve space for additional metadata by reducing the required in=
itial packet size to, say 1000 octets in order to allow for a smaller PMTU =
than the actual PMTU?</div><div id=3D"m_5690822405323584871bloop_customfont=
" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0)=
;margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"m_5690822405323584871blo=
op_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rg=
ba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">This could simplify tunnelling a=
nd monitoring, and also other cases where multiple servers cooperate on han=
dling a single connection.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>How =
do you imagine those servers would use this space?</div><div><br></div><div=
>-Ekr</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word=
-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><br><div id=3D"m_56908224053=
23584871bloop_sign_1519805234639226880" class=3D"m_5690822405323584871bloop=
_sign"><div style=3D"font-family:helvetica,arial;font-size:13px">Kind Regar=
ds,</div><div style=3D"font-family:helvetica,arial;font-size:13px">Mikkel F=
ahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen<br><br></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div>

--001a11487b8c400b52056646451f--


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Subject: Re: Space for Packet Metadata
To: Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
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> This could simplify tunnelling and monitoring, and also other cases where
> multiple servers cooperate on handling a single connection.
>

How do you imagine those servers would use this space?

One example is forming a consensus across servers handling connections from
multiple clients concurrently. A current leader receives the packet and
either just signs it, or verifies the content first, then forwards the
packet to n - 1 other servers in different datacenters (depending on
protocol). Once enough signatures have been collected, the packet is
accepted and processed, adding an ordering across all connections. If a
server is compromised, it can=E2=80=99t do something with the packet the ot=
her
server haven=E2=80=99t already authorised. In some protocols each additiona=
l server
would add to the previous signature thus requiring quite a few signatures
to ensure consensus. It is of great value to have these signatures in a
single packet because it provides atomic read guarantees. This can easily
consume 80 or more bytes.

Obviously there is a lot more to it than that, and it can be done after
unwrapping QUIC and via secure point to point communication, but that would
be less efficient and you might have difficulty proving the content
originated from a given client without even more signatures, and the client
might have to be involved in the protocol.

It only works, it you keep enough servers safe, or course:

https://www.vox.com/world/2017/6/13/15791744/russia-election-39-states-hack=
-putin-trump-sessions

This is just one example, but any time a backend needs to coordinate, extra
space might be useful. Another example could be a virtual routing token
added at the end of the packet.

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<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq" style=3D"font-family:Helvet=
ica,Arial;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-we=
ight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tra=
nsform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span><div><div><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1=
px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:=
1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><div =
id=3D"m_5690822405323584871bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica=
,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgb(0,0,0);margin:0px"><br class=3D"Apple-inter=
change-newline">This could simplify tunnelling and monitoring, and also oth=
er cases where multiple servers cooperate on handling a single connection.<=
/div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>How do you imagine those server=
s would use this space?</div></div></div></div></div></div></span></blockqu=
ote></div><p>One example is forming a consensus across servers handling con=
nections from multiple clients concurrently. A current leader receives the =
packet and either just signs it, or verifies the content first, then forwar=
ds the packet to n - 1 other servers in different datacenters (depending on=
 protocol). Once enough signatures have been collected, the packet is accep=
ted and processed, adding an ordering across all connections. If a server i=
s compromised, it can=E2=80=99t do something with the packet the other serv=
er haven=E2=80=99t already authorised. In some protocols each additional se=
rver would add to the previous signature thus requiring quite a few signatu=
res to ensure consensus. It is of great value to have these signatures in a=
 single packet because it provides atomic read guarantees. This can easily =
consume 80 or more bytes.</p><p>Obviously there is a lot more to it than th=
at, and it can be done after unwrapping QUIC and via secure point to point =
communication, but that would be less efficient and you might have difficul=
ty proving the content originated from a given client without even more sig=
natures, and the client might have to be involved in the protocol.</p><p>It=
 only works, it you keep enough servers safe, or course:</p><p><a href=3D"h=
ttps://www.vox.com/world/2017/6/13/15791744/russia-election-39-states-hack-=
putin-trump-sessions">https://www.vox.com/world/2017/6/13/15791744/russia-e=
lection-39-states-hack-putin-trump-sessions</a></p><p>This is just one exam=
ple, but any time a backend needs to coordinate, extra space might be usefu=
l. Another example could be a virtual routing token added at the end of the=
 packet.</p><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq" style=3D"font=
-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:=
normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-inden=
t:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span><div><=
div><div dir=3D"ltr"></div></div></div></span></blockquote></div></body></h=
tml>

--001a1143b9b06e562a056646a3d2--


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Subject: Re: Space for Packet Metadata
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Hi,

On 2018-2-28, at 9:11, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen =
<mikkelfj@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> Would it make sense to reserve space for additional metadata by =
reducing the required initial packet size to, say 1000 octets in order =
to allow for a smaller PMTU than the actual PMTU?
>=20
> This could simplify tunnelling and monitoring, and also other cases =
where multiple servers cooperate on handling a single connection.

any such servers can already "reserve" such space by not forwarding =
packets that exceed whatever limit they want to enforce - this is how =
PMTUD works.

Lars

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Subject: Re: Space for Packet Metadata
To: "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>
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Yes, but can it go below 1200? It seems the handshake aims to squeeze up
near the minimum guaranteed (required) PMTU and QUIC implementations would
probably not expect to maintain a connection that drops below PMTU 1200.

I=E2=80=99m not saying it can=E2=80=99t work, rather I'm asking because I d=
on=E2=80=99t think so.

On 28 February 2018 at 15.58.39, Eggert, Lars (lars@netapp.com) wrote:

any such servers can already "reserve" such space by not forwarding packets
that exceed whatever limit they want to enforce - this is how PMTUD works.

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<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">Yes, but can it go b=
elow 1200? It seems the handshake aims to squeeze up near the minimum guara=
nteed (required) PMTU and QUIC implementations would probably not expect to=
 maintain a connection that drops below PMTU 1200.</div><div id=3D"bloop_cu=
stomfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,=
0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont=
" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0)=
;margin:0px;line-height:auto">I=E2=80=99m not saying it can=E2=80=99t work,=
 rather I&#39;m asking because I don=E2=80=99t think so.</div><div id=3D"bl=
oop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:r=
gba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><p class=3D"airmail_o=
n">On 28 February 2018 at 15.58.39, Eggert, Lars (<a href=3D"mailto:lars@ne=
tapp.com">lars@netapp.com</a>) wrote:</p> <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=
=3D"clean_bq"><span><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:&quot;=
helvetica Neue&quot;,helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-varian=
t-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;tex=
t-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;backgr=
ound-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline!important;float:none">any such s=
ervers can already &quot;reserve&quot; such space by not forwarding packets=
 that exceed whatever limit they want to enforce - this is how PMTUD works.=
<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span><br style=3D"colo=
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On 2/28/2018 7:03 AM, Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen wrote:
> Yes, but can it go below 1200? It seems the handshake aims to squeeze
> up near the minimum guaranteed (required) PMTU and QUIC
> implementations would probably not expect to maintain a connection
> that drops below PMTU 1200.
>
> I’m not saying it can’t work, rather I'm asking because I don’t think so.
>
> On 28 February 2018 at 15.58.39, Eggert, Lars (lars@netapp.com
> <mailto:lars@netapp.com>) wrote:
>
>> any such servers can already "reserve" such space by not forwarding
>> packets that exceed whatever limit they want to enforce - this is how
>> PMTUD works. 

What Lars said. If networks want to play game with extra forwarding
overhead, they have to ensure that they can tunnel a min MTU packet,
i.e. 1280 bytes. Which is not a problem since the local MTU is generally
1536 bytes, and there is no practical reason to have more than 200 bytes
of overhead.

-- Christian Huitema

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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/28/2018 7:03 AM, Mikkel Fahnøe
      Jørgensen wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CAN1APddJJHrpKBjn+U=rYYzxnuwyRYvA3++0T_ZRMy15fCJgbQ@mail.gmail.com">
      <style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>
      <div id="bloop_customfont"
style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">Yes,
        but can it go below 1200? It seems the handshake aims to squeeze
        up near the minimum guaranteed (required) PMTU and QUIC
        implementations would probably not expect to maintain a
        connection that drops below PMTU 1200.</div>
      <div id="bloop_customfont"
style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br>
      </div>
      <div id="bloop_customfont"
style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">I’m
        not saying it can’t work, rather I'm asking because I don’t
        think so.</div>
      <div id="bloop_customfont"
style="font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br>
      </div>
      <p class="airmail_on">On 28 February 2018 at 15.58.39, Eggert,
        Lars (<a href="mailto:lars@netapp.com" moz-do-not-send="true">lars@netapp.com</a>)
        wrote:</p>
      <blockquote type="cite" class="clean_bq"><span>
          <div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:&quot;helvetica
Neue&quot;,helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);display:inline!important;float:none">any
              such servers can already "reserve" such space by not
              forwarding packets that exceed whatever limit they want to
              enforce - this is how PMTUD works.<span
                class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br
              style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:&quot;helvetica
Neue&quot;,helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
          </div>
        </span></blockquote>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    What Lars said. If networks want to play game with extra forwarding
    overhead, they have to ensure that they can tunnel a min MTU packet,
    i.e. 1280 bytes. Which is not a problem since the local MTU is
    generally 1536 bytes, and there is no practical reason to have more
    than 200 bytes of overhead.<br>
    <br>
    -- Christian Huitema<br>
  </body>
</html>

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On 2018-2-28, at 16:03, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen =
<mikkelfj@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes, but can it go below 1200? It seems the handshake aims to squeeze =
up near the minimum guaranteed (required) PMTU and QUIC implementations =
would probably not expect to maintain a connection that drops below PMTU =
1200.

The minimum IPv4 MTU is 576, so I'd expect QUIC stacks to probe as least =
that low.

Lars

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From nobody Wed Feb 28 07:55:12 2018
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Subject: Re: Space for Packet Metadata
From: Michael Tuexen <michael.tuexen@lurchi.franken.de>
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Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2018 16:55:02 +0100
Cc: "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>, =?utf-8?Q?Mikkel_Fahn=C3=B8e_J=C3=B8rgensen?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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> On Feb 28, 2018, at 4:30 PM, Nick Banks <nibanks@microsoft.com> wrote:
>=20
> According to spec, QUIC requires at least 1280 (from 9.4):
>=20
> "QUIC depends on the network path supporting a MTU of at least 1280 =
octets. This is the IPv6 minimum MTU and therefore also supported by =
most modern IPv4 networks. An endpoint MUST NOT reduce its MTU below =
this number, even if it receives signals that indicate a smaller limit =
might exist.'
When discussing safe MTU values for WebRTC, 1280 for IPv6 was =
acceptable, but not for IPv4. After a discussion,
the suggested value for IPv4 was 1200. See
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-13#section-5

Not sure what changed in between...

Best regards
Michael
>=20
> - Nick
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Eggert, Lars
> Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2018 7:12 AM
> To: Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen <mikkelfj@gmail.com>
> Cc: IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: Space for Packet Metadata
>=20
> On 2018-2-28, at 16:03, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen =
<mikkelfj@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Yes, but can it go below 1200? It seems the handshake aims to squeeze =
up near the minimum guaranteed (required) PMTU and QUIC implementations =
would probably not expect to maintain a connection that drops below PMTU =
1200.
>=20
> The minimum IPv4 MTU is 576, so I'd expect QUIC stacks to probe as =
least that low.
>=20
> Lars


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Subject: Re: Space for Packet Metadata
To: Nick Banks <nibanks@microsoft.com>,  Michael Tuexen <michael.tuexen@lurchi.franken.de>
Cc: IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, "Eggert, Lars" <lars@netapp.com>
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--001a1143b9b04d2184056647e6dd
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https://blogs.cisco.com/enterprise/ipv6-mtu-gotchas-and-other-icmp-issues

IPV6 UDP overhead is 48 bytes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_Datagram_Protocol

Minimum expected PMTU is 1280 bytes (and required by QUIC)
Local MTU expected 1536 bytes

1536 - 48 =3D 1488
1488 - 1280 =3D 208 bytes

So there is already 208 bytes reserved for tunnelling etc. Which is fine.
Exactly what I was asking for.


On 28 February 2018 at 16.55.05, Michael Tuexen (
michael.tuexen@lurchi.franken.de) wrote:

> On Feb 28, 2018, at 4:30 PM, Nick Banks <nibanks@microsoft.com> wrote:
>
> According to spec, QUIC requires at least 1280 (from 9.4):
>
> "QUIC depends on the network path supporting a MTU of at least 1280
octets. This is the IPv6 minimum MTU and therefore also supported by most
modern IPv4 networks. An endpoint MUST NOT reduce its MTU below this
number, even if it receives signals that indicate a smaller limit might
exist.'
When discussing safe MTU values for WebRTC, 1280 for IPv6 was acceptable,
but not for IPv4. After a discussion,
the suggested value for IPv4 was 1200. See
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-13#section-5

Not sure what changed in between...

Best regards
Michael
>
> - Nick
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Eggert, Lars
> Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2018 7:12 AM
> To: Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen <mikkelfj@gmail.com>
> Cc: IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: Space for Packet Metadata
>
> On 2018-2-28, at 16:03, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen <mikkelfj@gmail=
.com>
wrote:
>> Yes, but can it go below 1200? It seems the handshake aims to squeeze up
near the minimum guaranteed (required) PMTU and QUIC implementations would
probably not expect to maintain a connection that drops below PMTU 1200.
>
> The minimum IPv4 MTU is 576, so I'd expect QUIC stacks to probe as least
that low.
>
> Lars

--001a1143b9b04d2184056647e6dd
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><a href=3D"https://b=
logs.cisco.com/enterprise/ipv6-mtu-gotchas-and-other-icmp-issues">https://b=
logs.cisco.com/enterprise/ipv6-mtu-gotchas-and-other-icmp-issues</a></div><=
div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:=
13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=
=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;c=
olor:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">IPV6 UDP overhead is 48 b=
ytes=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_Datagram_Protocol">=
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_Datagram_Protocol</a></div><div id=3D"bl=
oop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:r=
gba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div> <div>Minimum expecte=
d PMTU is 1280 bytes (and required by QUIC)</div><div>Local MTU expected 15=
36 bytes</div><div><br></div><div>1536 - 48 =3D 1488</div><div>1488 - 1280 =
=3D 208 bytes</div><div><br></div><div>So there is already 208 bytes reserv=
ed for tunnelling etc. Which is fine. Exactly what I was asking for.</div><=
div id=3D"bloop_sign_1519833506955880192" class=3D"bloop_sign"><div style=
=3D"font-family:helvetica,arial;font-size:13px"><br></div></div> <br><p cla=
ss=3D"airmail_on">On 28 February 2018 at 16.55.05, Michael Tuexen (<a href=
=3D"mailto:michael.tuexen@lurchi.franken.de">michael.tuexen@lurchi.franken.=
de</a>) wrote:</p> <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq"><span><div>=
<div></div><div>&gt; On Feb 28, 2018, at 4:30 PM, Nick Banks &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:nibanks@microsoft.com">nibanks@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; According to spec, QUIC requires at least 1280 (from 9.4):
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; &quot;QUIC depends on the network path supporting a MTU of at leas=
t 1280 octets. This is the IPv6 minimum MTU and therefore also supported by=
 most modern IPv4 networks. An endpoint MUST NOT reduce its MTU below this =
number, even if it receives signals that indicate a smaller limit might exi=
st.&#39;
<br>When discussing safe MTU values for WebRTC, 1280 for IPv6 was acceptabl=
e, but not for IPv4. After a discussion,
<br>the suggested value for IPv4 was 1200. See
<br><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-1=
3#section-5">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-data-channel-13#=
section-5</a>
<br>
<br>Not sure what changed in between...
<br>
<br>Best regards
<br>Michael
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; - Nick
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; -----Original Message-----
<br>&gt; From: QUIC &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org">quic-bounc=
es@ietf.org</a>&gt; On Behalf Of Eggert, Lars
<br>&gt; Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2018 7:12 AM
<br>&gt; To: Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mikkel=
fj@gmail.com">mikkelfj@gmail.com</a>&gt;
<br>&gt; Cc: IETF QUIC WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@ietf.or=
g</a>&gt;
<br>&gt; Subject: Re: Space for Packet Metadata
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; On 2018-2-28, at 16:03, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com">mikkelfj@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:
<br>&gt;&gt; Yes, but can it go below 1200? It seems the handshake aims to =
squeeze up near the minimum guaranteed (required) PMTU and QUIC implementat=
ions would probably not expect to maintain a connection that drops below PM=
TU 1200.
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; The minimum IPv4 MTU is 576, so I&#39;d expect QUIC stacks to prob=
e as least that low.
<br>&gt; =20
<br>&gt; Lars
<br>
<br></div></div></span></blockquote></body></html>

--001a1143b9b04d2184056647e6dd--


From nobody Wed Feb 28 08:07:29 2018
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From: Gorry Fairhurst <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>
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For IPv6 that may be fine.

The QUIC transport paper (*) Section 7.1 speaks of "Packet Size 
Consideration"- as far as I know this is just UDP traffic from google 
Chrome clients to google servers. They showed 3% unreachable for 1200 B 
payloads. Other networks could well be different.

We are in the midst of a large measurement campaign related to our work 
in TSVWG on path MTU discovery. I would expect a wide variety of Path 
MTUs - even though the current majority of paths will support 1280 
bytes, many IPv4 paths do not - there are also many paths that support 
much more.

Gorry

* 
http://delivery.acm.org/10.1145/3100000/3098842/p183-Langley.pdf?ip=212.159.18.54&id=3098842&acc=OA&key=4D4702B0C3E38B35%2E4D4702B0C3E38B35%2E4D4702B0C3E38B35%2E5945DC2EABF3343C&__acm__=1519833743_fa365ff0c9cc6c6e266add2dba8f385f

On 28/02/2018, 15:30, Nick Banks wrote:
> According to spec, QUIC requires at least 1280 (from 9.4):
>
> "QUIC depends on the network path supporting a MTU of at least 1280 octets. This is the IPv6 minimum MTU and therefore also supported by most modern IPv4 networks. An endpoint MUST NOT reduce its MTU below this number, even if it receives signals that indicate a smaller limit might exist.'
>
> - Nick
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: QUIC<quic-bounces@ietf.org>  On Behalf Of Eggert, Lars
> Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2018 7:12 AM
> To: Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen<mikkelfj@gmail.com>
> Cc: IETF QUIC WG<quic@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: Space for Packet Metadata
>
> On 2018-2-28, at 16:03, Mikkel Fahnøe Jørgensen<mikkelfj@gmail.com>  wrote:
>> Yes, but can it go below 1200? It seems the handshake aims to squeeze up near the minimum guaranteed (required) PMTU and QUIC implementations would probably not expect to maintain a connection that drops below PMTU 1200.
> The minimum IPv4 MTU is 576, so I'd expect QUIC stacks to probe as least that low.
>
> Lars


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https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1141

One suggestion from Martin's implementation feedback that has been mentione=
d before is reworking the QCRAM instruction space.  The QCRAM draft uses th=
e HPACK instructions, except that it cannibalizes table size changes for th=
e Duplicate instruction.  That leads to some inefficiency with the separate=
 streams, since you have to validate that instructions aren't used on the w=
rong stream and some of the opcode space is wasted on each stream.

This PR observes that each stream has a fully disjoint set of commands from=
 the other:

  *   Table updates
     *   Insert with Name Reference from Static Table
     *   Insert with Name Reference from Dynamic Table
     *   Insert without Name Reference
     *   Duplicate
     *   Change table size
  *   Header blocks
     *   Indexed entry from Static
     *   Indexed entry from Dynamic
     *   Literal with Name Reference from Static Table
     *   Literal with Name Reference from Static Table, Never Indexed
     *   Literal with Name Reference from Dynamic Table
     *   Literal with Name Reference from Dynamic Table, Never Indexed
     *   Literal without Name Reference
     *   Literal without Name Reference, Never Indexed

The PR takes advantage of the disjoint space to rework the opcodes in hopes=
 of saving bytes on common instructions.  It does this in two ways:

  *   Uses a bit in the opcode to differentiate static versus dynamic table=
s, instead of concatenating them
     *   Gives us the future option to make the static table longer without=
 hurting the dynamic table performance
  *   Uses a bit in the opcode to identify string literals, instead of usin=
g a sentinel value of zero
     *   Requires modifying the HPACK string definition to not require byte=
 alignment at the beginning
     *   Gives us the future option to make the tables zero-based instead o=
f one-based
     *   Makes indexing easier to explain in a future PR

Here's the impact:

Operation

HPACK

QCRAM

PR#1141

Impact

Table updates









Insert with Name Reference from Static Table

"01" + index < 62

"01" + index < 62

"11" + index

Same

Insert with Name Reference from Dynamic Table

"01" + index >=3D 62
(one byte for first 2 entries, then 2 bytes)

"01" + index >=3D 62
(one byte for first 2 entries, then 2 bytes)

"10" + index
(one byte for first 64 entries)

One byte saved for 62 of 64 most recent entries

Insert without Name Reference

"01000000"

"01000000"

"01"


One byte saved for header names < 32 octets

Duplicate

Not supported

"001" + index >=3D 62

"000" + index

Moot; you're unlikely to duplicate recent entries

Change table size

"001"

Not supported

"001"

Same

Header blocks









Indexed entry from Static

"1" + index < 62

"1" + index < 62

"11" + index

Same

Indexed entry from Dynamic

"1" + index >=3D 62

"1" + index >=3D 62

"10" + index

One byte longer for indices 62-63

Literal with Name Reference from Static Table

"0000" + index < 62
(two bytes for index > 15)

"0000" + index < 62
(two bytes for index > 15)

"0001" + index

Same

Literal with Name Reference from Static Table, Never Indexed

"0001" + index < 62
(two bytes for index > 15)

"0001" + index < 62
(two bytes for index > 15)

"0011" + index

Same

Literal with Name Reference from Dynamic Table

"0000" + index >=3D 62
(always 2+ bytes)

"0000" + index >=3D 62
(always 2+ bytes)

"0000" + index

One byte saved for first 15 entries

Literal with Name Reference from Dynamic Table, Never Indexed

"0001" + index > 62
(always 2+ bytes)

"0001" + index > 62
(always 2+ bytes)

"0010" + index

One byte saved for first 15 entries

Literal without Name Reference

"00000000"

"00000000"

"010"

One byte saved for header names < 16 octets

Literal without Name Reference, Never Indexed

"00010000"

"00010000"

"011"

One byte saved for header names < 16 octets


There's been some churn on the PR today as Martin and I worked some of this=
 out, so please give it a read (or another read) now and provide feedback.

Thanks!

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--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" />
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</head>
<body lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pul=
l/1141">https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/1141</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">One suggestion from Martin&#8217;s implementation fe=
edback that has been mentioned before is reworking the QCRAM instruction sp=
ace.&nbsp; The QCRAM draft uses the HPACK instructions, except that it cann=
ibalizes table size changes for the Duplicate
 instruction.&nbsp; That leads to some inefficiency with the separate strea=
ms, since you have to validate that instructions aren&#8217;t used on the w=
rong stream and some of the opcode space is wasted on each stream.<o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This PR observes that each stream has a fully disjoi=
nt set of commands from the other:<o:p></o:p></p>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo1">Table updates<o:p></o:p>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"circle">
<li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level2 =
lfo1">Insert with Name Reference from Static Table<o:p></o:p></li><li class=
=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1">Ins=
ert with Name Reference from Dynamic Table<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoL=
istParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1">Insert with=
out Name Reference<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"m=
argin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1">Duplicate<o:p></o:p></li><li class=
=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1">Cha=
nge table size<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
</li><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 le=
vel1 lfo1">Header blocks<o:p></o:p>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"circle">
<li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level2 =
lfo1">Indexed entry from Static<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoListParagrap=
h" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1">Indexed entry from Dyn=
amic<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in=
;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1">Literal with Name Reference from Static Table<o:p=
></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-lis=
t:l0 level2 lfo1">Literal with Name Reference from Static Table, Never Inde=
xed<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;=
mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1">Literal with Name Reference from Dynamic Table<o:p=
></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-lis=
t:l0 level2 lfo1">Literal with Name Reference from Dynamic Table, Never Ind=
exed<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in=
;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1">Literal without Name Reference<o:p></o:p></li><li=
 class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo=
1">Literal without Name Reference, Never Indexed<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
</li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The PR takes advantage of the disjoint space to rewo=
rk the opcodes in hopes of saving bytes on common instructions.&nbsp; It do=
es this in two ways:<o:p></o:p></p>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level1 =
lfo2">Uses a bit in the opcode to differentiate static versus dynamic table=
s, instead of concatenating them<o:p></o:p>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"circle">
<li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level2 =
lfo2">Gives us the future option to make the static table longer without hu=
rting the dynamic table performance<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
</li><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 le=
vel1 lfo2">Uses a bit in the opcode to identify string literals, instead of=
 using a sentinel value of zero<o:p></o:p>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"circle">
<li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level2 =
lfo2">Requires modifying the HPACK string definition to not require byte al=
ignment at the beginning<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" styl=
e=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level2 lfo2">Gives us the future option to=
 make the tables zero-based instead of one-based<o:p></o:p></li><li class=
=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level2 lfo2">Mak=
es indexing easier to explain in a future PR<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
</li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Here&#8217;s the impact:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<table class=3D"MsoTable15Grid3" border=3D"1" cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=
=3D"0" style=3D"border-collapse:collapse;border:none">
<tbody>
<tr>
<td width=3D"175" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:131.15pt;border:none;border=
-bottom:solid #666666 1.0pt;background:white;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>Operation<o:p></o:p></b></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.85pt;border:none;border=
-bottom:solid #666666 1.0pt;background:white;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>HPACK<o:p></o:p></b></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.9pt;border:none;border-=
bottom:solid #666666 1.0pt;background:white;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>QCRAM<o:p></o:p></b></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.9pt;border:none;border-=
bottom:solid #666666 1.0pt;background:white;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>PR#1141<o:p></o:p></b></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.9pt;border:none;border-=
bottom:solid #666666 1.0pt;background:white;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>Impact<o:p></o:p></b></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=3D"175" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:131.15pt;border:solid #6666=
66 1.0pt;border-top:none;background:#5B9BD5;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><u><span style=3D"color:white">Table updates</spa=
n><o:p></o:p></u></b></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.85pt;border-top:none;bo=
rder-left:none;border-bottom:solid #666666 1.0pt;border-right:solid #666666=
 1.0pt;background:#5B9BD5;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.9pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid #666666 1.0pt;border-right:solid #666666 =
1.0pt;background:#5B9BD5;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.9pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid #666666 1.0pt;border-right:solid #666666 =
1.0pt;background:#5B9BD5;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.9pt;border:none;backgro=
und:#5B9BD5;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><i><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></i></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=3D"175" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:131.15pt;border:solid #6666=
66 1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>Insert with Name Reference from Static Table<o:p>=
</o:p></b></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.85pt;border-top:none;bo=
rder-left:none;border-bottom:solid #666666 1.0pt;border-right:solid #666666=
 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#8220;01&#8221; &#43; index &lt; 62<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.9pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid #666666 1.0pt;border-right:solid #666666 =
1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#8220;01&#8221; &#43; index &lt; 62<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.9pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid #666666 1.0pt;border-right:solid #666666 =
1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#8220;11&#8221; &#43; index<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.9pt;border:none;backgro=
und:white;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Same<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=3D"175" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:131.15pt;border:solid #6666=
66 1.0pt;border-top:none;background:#CCCCCC;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>Insert with Name Reference from Dynamic Table<o:p=
></o:p></b></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.85pt;border-top:none;bo=
rder-left:none;border-bottom:solid #666666 1.0pt;border-right:solid #666666=
 1.0pt;background:#CCCCCC;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#8220;01&#8221; &#43; index &gt;=3D 62<o:p></o:p></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">(one byte for first 2 entries, then 2 bytes)<o:p></o=
:p></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.9pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid #666666 1.0pt;border-right:solid #666666 =
1.0pt;background:#CCCCCC;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#8220;01&#8221; &#43; index &gt;=3D 62<o:p></o:p></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">(one byte for first 2 entries, then 2 bytes)<o:p></o=
:p></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.9pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid #666666 1.0pt;border-right:solid #666666 =
1.0pt;background:#CCCCCC;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#8220;10&#8221; &#43; index<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">(one byte for first 64 entries)<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.9pt;border:none;backgro=
und:white;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#385723;mso-style-textfill-fill=
-color:#385723;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">One byte saved for 62 =
of 64 most recent entries<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=3D"175" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:131.15pt;border:solid #6666=
66 1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>Insert without Name Reference<o:p></o:p></b></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.85pt;border-top:none;bo=
rder-left:none;border-bottom:solid #666666 1.0pt;border-right:solid #666666=
 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#8220;01000000&#8221;<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.9pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid #666666 1.0pt;border-right:solid #666666 =
1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#8220;01000000&#8221;<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.9pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid #666666 1.0pt;border-right:solid #666666 =
1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#8220;01&#8221;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.9pt;border:none;backgro=
und:white;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#385723;mso-style-textfill-fill=
-color:#385723;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">One byte saved for hea=
der names &lt; 32 octets<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=3D"175" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:131.15pt;border:solid #6666=
66 1.0pt;border-top:none;background:#CCCCCC;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>Duplicate<o:p></o:p></b></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.85pt;border-top:none;bo=
rder-left:none;border-bottom:solid #666666 1.0pt;border-right:solid #666666=
 1.0pt;background:#CCCCCC;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Not supported<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.9pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid #666666 1.0pt;border-right:solid #666666 =
1.0pt;background:#CCCCCC;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#8220;001&#8221; &#43; index &gt;=3D 62<o:p></o:p><=
/p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.9pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid #666666 1.0pt;border-right:solid #666666 =
1.0pt;background:#CCCCCC;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#8220;000&#8221; &#43; index<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.9pt;border:none;backgro=
und:white;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Moot; you&#8217;re unlikely to duplicate recent entr=
ies<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr style=3D"height:3.5pt">
<td width=3D"175" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:131.15pt;border:solid #6666=
66 1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;height:3.5pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>Change table size<o:p></o:p></b></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.85pt;border-top:none;bo=
rder-left:none;border-bottom:solid #666666 1.0pt;border-right:solid #666666=
 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;height:3.5pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#8220;001&#8221;<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.9pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid #666666 1.0pt;border-right:solid #666666 =
1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;height:3.5pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Not supported<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.9pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid #666666 1.0pt;border-right:solid #666666 =
1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;height:3.5pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#8220;001&#8221;<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.9pt;border:none;backgro=
und:white;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;height:3.5pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Same<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=3D"175" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:131.15pt;border:solid #6666=
66 1.0pt;border-top:none;background:#5B9BD5;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><u><span style=3D"color:white">Header blocks<o:p>=
</o:p></span></u></b></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.85pt;border-top:none;bo=
rder-left:none;border-bottom:solid #666666 1.0pt;border-right:solid #666666=
 1.0pt;background:#5B9BD5;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><u><span style=3D"color:white"><o:p><span style=
=3D"text-decoration:none">&nbsp;</span></o:p></span></u></b></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.9pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid #666666 1.0pt;border-right:solid #666666 =
1.0pt;background:#5B9BD5;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><u><span style=3D"color:white"><o:p><span style=
=3D"text-decoration:none">&nbsp;</span></o:p></span></u></b></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.9pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid #666666 1.0pt;border-right:solid #666666 =
1.0pt;background:#5B9BD5;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><u><span style=3D"color:white"><o:p><span style=
=3D"text-decoration:none">&nbsp;</span></o:p></span></u></b></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.9pt;border:none;backgro=
und:#5B9BD5;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><u><span style=3D"color:white"><o:p><span style=
=3D"text-decoration:none">&nbsp;</span></o:p></span></u></b></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=3D"175" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:131.15pt;border:solid #6666=
66 1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>Indexed entry from Static<o:p></o:p></b></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.85pt;border-top:none;bo=
rder-left:none;border-bottom:solid #666666 1.0pt;border-right:solid #666666=
 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#8220;1&#8221; &#43; index &lt; 62<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.9pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid #666666 1.0pt;border-right:solid #666666 =
1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#8220;1&#8221; &#43; index &lt; 62<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.9pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid #666666 1.0pt;border-right:solid #666666 =
1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#8220;11&#8221; &#43; index<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.9pt;border:none;backgro=
und:white;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Same<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=3D"175" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:131.15pt;border:solid #6666=
66 1.0pt;border-top:none;background:#CCCCCC;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>Indexed entry from Dynamic<o:p></o:p></b></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.85pt;border-top:none;bo=
rder-left:none;border-bottom:solid #666666 1.0pt;border-right:solid #666666=
 1.0pt;background:#CCCCCC;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#8220;1&#8221; &#43; index &gt;=3D 62<o:p></o:p></p=
>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.9pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid #666666 1.0pt;border-right:solid #666666 =
1.0pt;background:#CCCCCC;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#8220;1&#8221; &#43; index &gt;=3D 62<o:p></o:p></p=
>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.9pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid #666666 1.0pt;border-right:solid #666666 =
1.0pt;background:#CCCCCC;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#8220;10&#8221; &#43; index<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.9pt;border:none;backgro=
und:white;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#C00000">One byte longer for in=
dices 62-63</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=3D"175" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:131.15pt;border:solid #6666=
66 1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>Literal with Name Reference from Static Table<o:p=
></o:p></b></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.85pt;border-top:none;bo=
rder-left:none;border-bottom:solid #666666 1.0pt;border-right:solid #666666=
 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#8220;0000&#8221; &#43; index &lt; 62<o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">(two bytes for index &gt; 15)<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.9pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid #666666 1.0pt;border-right:solid #666666 =
1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#8220;0000&#8221; &#43; index &lt; 62<o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">(two bytes for index &gt; 15)<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.9pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid #666666 1.0pt;border-right:solid #666666 =
1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#8220;0001&#8221; &#43; index<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.9pt;border:none;backgro=
und:white;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Same<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=3D"175" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:131.15pt;border:solid #6666=
66 1.0pt;border-top:none;background:#CCCCCC;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>Literal with Name Reference from Static Table, Ne=
ver Indexed<o:p></o:p></b></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.85pt;border-top:none;bo=
rder-left:none;border-bottom:solid #666666 1.0pt;border-right:solid #666666=
 1.0pt;background:#CCCCCC;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#8220;0001&#8221; &#43; index &lt; 62<o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">(two bytes for index &gt; 15)<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.9pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid #666666 1.0pt;border-right:solid #666666 =
1.0pt;background:#CCCCCC;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#8220;0001&#8221; &#43; index &lt; 62<o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">(two bytes for index &gt; 15)<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.9pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid #666666 1.0pt;border-right:solid #666666 =
1.0pt;background:#CCCCCC;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#8220;0011&#8221; &#43; index<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.9pt;border:none;backgro=
und:white;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Same<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=3D"175" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:131.15pt;border:solid #6666=
66 1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>Literal with Name Reference from Dynamic Table<o:=
p></o:p></b></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.85pt;border-top:none;bo=
rder-left:none;border-bottom:solid #666666 1.0pt;border-right:solid #666666=
 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#8220;0000&#8221; &#43; index &gt;=3D 62<o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">(always 2&#43; bytes)<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.9pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid #666666 1.0pt;border-right:solid #666666 =
1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#8220;0000&#8221; &#43; index &gt;=3D 62<o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">(always 2&#43; bytes)<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.9pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid #666666 1.0pt;border-right:solid #666666 =
1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#8220;0000&#8221; &#43; index<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.9pt;border:none;backgro=
und:white;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#385723;mso-style-textfill-fill=
-color:#385723;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">One byte saved for fir=
st 15 entries<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=3D"175" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:131.15pt;border:solid #6666=
66 1.0pt;border-top:none;background:#CCCCCC;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>Literal with Name Reference from Dynamic Table, N=
ever Indexed<o:p></o:p></b></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.85pt;border-top:none;bo=
rder-left:none;border-bottom:solid #666666 1.0pt;border-right:solid #666666=
 1.0pt;background:#CCCCCC;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#8220;0001&#8221; &#43; index &gt; 62<o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">(always 2&#43; bytes)<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.9pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid #666666 1.0pt;border-right:solid #666666 =
1.0pt;background:#CCCCCC;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#8220;0001&#8221; &#43; index &gt; 62<o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">(always 2&#43; bytes)<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.9pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid #666666 1.0pt;border-right:solid #666666 =
1.0pt;background:#CCCCCC;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#8220;0010&#8221; &#43; index<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.9pt;border:none;backgro=
und:white;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#385723;mso-style-textfill-fill=
-color:#385723;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">One byte saved for fir=
st 15 entries<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=3D"175" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:131.15pt;border:solid #6666=
66 1.0pt;border-top:none;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>Literal without Name Reference<o:p></o:p></b></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.85pt;border-top:none;bo=
rder-left:none;border-bottom:solid #666666 1.0pt;border-right:solid #666666=
 1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#8220;00000000&#8221;<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.9pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid #666666 1.0pt;border-right:solid #666666 =
1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#8220;00000000&#8221;<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.9pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid #666666 1.0pt;border-right:solid #666666 =
1.0pt;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#8220;010&#8221;<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.9pt;border:none;backgro=
und:white;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#385723;mso-style-textfill-fill=
-color:#385723;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">One byte saved for hea=
der names &lt; 16 octets<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<td width=3D"175" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:131.15pt;border:solid #6666=
66 1.0pt;border-top:none;background:#CCCCCC;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>Literal without Name Reference, Never Indexed<o:p=
></o:p></b></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.85pt;border-top:none;bo=
rder-left:none;border-bottom:solid #666666 1.0pt;border-right:solid #666666=
 1.0pt;background:#CCCCCC;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#8220;00010000&#8221;<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.9pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid #666666 1.0pt;border-right:solid #666666 =
1.0pt;background:#CCCCCC;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#8220;00010000&#8221;<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.9pt;border-top:none;bor=
der-left:none;border-bottom:solid #666666 1.0pt;border-right:solid #666666 =
1.0pt;background:#CCCCCC;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&#8220;011&#8221;<o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td width=3D"156" valign=3D"top" style=3D"width:116.9pt;border:none;backgro=
und:white;padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#385723;mso-style-textfill-fill=
-color:#385723;mso-style-textfill-fill-alpha:100.0%">One byte saved for hea=
der names &lt; 16 octets<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">There&#8217;s been some churn on the PR today as Mar=
tin and I worked some of this out, so please give it a read (or another rea=
d) now and provide feedback.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks!<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_MWHPR08MB24325CADE88C887A869F65F1DAC60MWHPR08MB2432namp_--

