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From: Lucas Pardue <lucaspardue.24.7@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 14:46:48 +0100
Message-ID: <CALGR9oasuQ+GEh=5UCvf3aPPmcFnHbNmtOqEMEQtcXJJPEC7aA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Analysing the HTTP/3 error code space
To: Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>
Cc: Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>, Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>,  Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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On Wed, Jun 26, 2019 at 12:29 AM Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be> wrote:
>
> For those not following GitHub closely, I=E2=80=99d like to point out tha=
t these proposals have shown up as PRs, and that they have been reviewed by=
 a few of us over there.  I plan to merge later this week, modulo any objec=
tions.
>
> #2808 makes the H2 comparison point from PROTOCOL_ERROR to GENERAL_PROTOC=
OL_ERROR, while noting that H3 has more specific error codes for some thing=
s that were PE in H2
> #2813:  Expands the use of REQUEST_CANCELLED to cancelling push streams a=
nd removes the more specific error codes for why one might not want the pus=
hed content
> #2814:  Collects anything that could be wrong with the payload of a SETTI=
NGS frame (server settings sent by clients, duplicates) into SETTINGS_ERROR
> #2820:  Groups LIMIT_EXCEEDED and various misuses of Push IDs into a sing=
le error code (ID_ERROR) for any misuse of identifiers defined by HTTP
> #2822:  Groups UNKNOWN_STREAM_TYPE, WRONG_STREAM_COUNT, and WRONG_STREAM_=
DIRECTION into a single error code (STREAM_CREATION_ERROR) for any reason w=
hy a newly opened unidirectional stream is unacceptable to the recipient
>

These were merged (thanks Mike!) so I rebased and updated PR 2662 [1]
that replaces HTTP_MALFORMED_FRAME with simpler code points [2]. It
does a few things:

* Resurrects H2's FRAME_SIZE_ERROR but broadens it to include frame
layout errors - name is HTTP_FRAME_ERROR.
* Introduces a new error code HTTP_INVALID_PRIORITY that captures
cases where a frame with valid wire layout attempts to create a
prioritization relationship (see additional point below).
* Replaces occurrences of HTTP_MALFORMED_FRAME with: HTTP_ID_ERROR,
HTTP_FRAME_ERROR, HTTP_INVALID_PRIORITY as appropriate.
* Reshuffles all of the error codes. In doing so, I tried to align the
code space with H2 and avoid there being any gaps.

I'm not 100% convinced we need a HTTP_INVALID_PRIORITY code. I'm open
to simply using HTTP_FRAME_ERROR.

HTTP_SETTINGS_ERROR and HTTP_MISSING_SETTINGS are candidates to be
consolidated (either together, or into another code). This is
dependent on discussion in (and related to) #2783. I suggest we solve
that in a different PR.

Feedback on this thread or the PR is welcome.


[1] https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2662
[2] https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2551


From nobody Mon Jul  1 23:00:43 2019
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Subject: Fwd: [105attendees] IRTF ANRW at IETF 105
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References: <361ECB8E-03B4-4C73-B597-5E66124A9F05@csperkins.org>
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FYI, some QUIC-related talks at the ANRW (as well as otherwise =
interesting & related stuff!)

Begin forwarded message:
>=20
> From: Colin Perkins <csp@csperkins.org>
> Subject: [105attendees] IRTF ANRW at IETF 105
> Date: July 1, 2019 at 20:28:46 GMT+3
> To: 105attendees@ietf.org
>=20
> The IRTF/ACM Applied Networking Research Workshop will be held on 22 =
July 2019, co-located with the IETF 105 meeting in Montreal. The =
workshop provides a forum for researchers, vendors, network operators =
and the Internet standards community to present and discuss emerging =
results in applied networking research.
>=20
> The programme for the workshop is available at =
https://irtf.org/anrw/2019/program.html - there will be talks on several =
topics likely of interest to the IETF community, including QUIC, DNS and =
DoH, NTP, ALTO, middleboxes, and network measurement.
>=20
> Attendance is free for those registered to attend IETF 105, but you =
MUST pre-register for the ANRW if you=E2=80=99d like to attend using the =
form at https://irtf.org/anrw/2019/attend.html
>=20
> Colin Perkins
> As IRTF Chair
>=20
> --
> 105attendees mailing list
> 105attendees@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/105attendees


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">FYI, =
some QUIC-related talks at the ANRW (as well as otherwise interesting =
&amp; related stuff!)<br class=3D""><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Begin =
forwarded message:<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span=
 style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, =
sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">From: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica =
Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Colin Perkins &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:csp@csperkins.org" class=3D"">csp@csperkins.org</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, =
sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica =
Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">[105attendees] =
IRTF ANRW at IETF 105</b><br class=3D""></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
-webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; =
color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">Date: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica =
Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">July 1, 2019 at 20:28:46 =
GMT+3<br class=3D""></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span=
 style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, =
sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">To: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica =
Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:105attendees@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">105attendees@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""></span></div><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">The IRTF/ACM Applied =
Networking Research Workshop will be held on 22 July 2019, co-located =
with the IETF 105 meeting in Montreal. The workshop provides a forum for =
researchers, vendors, network operators and the Internet standards =
community to present and discuss emerging results in applied networking =
research.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">The programme for the workshop is =
available at <a href=3D"https://irtf.org/anrw/2019/program.html" =
class=3D"">https://irtf.org/anrw/2019/program.html</a> - there will be =
talks on several topics likely of interest to the IETF community, =
including QUIC, DNS and DoH, NTP, ALTO, middleboxes, and network =
measurement.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Attendance is free for those =
registered to attend IETF 105, but you MUST pre-register for the ANRW if =
you=E2=80=99d like to attend using the form at <a =
href=3D"https://irtf.org/anrw/2019/attend.html" =
class=3D"">https://irtf.org/anrw/2019/attend.html</a><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Colin Perkins<br class=3D"">As IRTF Chair<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">-- <br class=3D"">105attendees mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:105attendees@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">105attendees@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/105attendees<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=

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From nobody Wed Jul  3 11:07:01 2019
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Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 11:06:43 -0700
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Subject: QUIC API Origin Trial
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We did a ClueCon Weekly session yesterday on the QUIC APIs currently in
Origin Trial in Chrome and Edge Preview.  This includes links to
documentation, demos, etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=964yH8GoD-I

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<div dir=3D"ltr">We did a ClueCon Weekly session yesterday on the QUIC APIs=
 currently in Origin Trial in Chrome and Edge Preview.=C2=A0 This includes =
links to documentation, demos, etc.=C2=A0<div><br></div><div><a href=3D"htt=
ps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D964yH8GoD-I">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=
=3D964yH8GoD-I</a><br></div></div>

--000000000000ebf254058ccab96f--


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Subject: Question about 0-RTT
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Hi folks,

Reading https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-quic-transport-20, I have a
question about 0-RTT: What is it?

The draft talks a lot about it, but I didn't see anywhere that clearly
defined what it is. When I see "RTT" without a definition I tend to think
"round trip time," but the explanation of 0-RTT seems to have more to do
with encryption setup during connection initialization than any tie to
which round trip completes the setup. I find this confusing.

Would someone comment and either show me the definition I missed or add one
to the next draft?

Thanks,
Bill Herrin

-- 
William Herrin
bill@herrin.us
https://bill.herrin.us/

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi folks,<div><br></div><div>Reading=C2=
=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-quic-transport-20">htt=
ps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-quic-transport-20</a>, I have a questio=
n about 0-RTT: What is it?</div><div><br></div><div>The draft talks a lot a=
bout it, but I didn&#39;t see anywhere that clearly defined what it is. Whe=
n I see &quot;RTT&quot; without a definition I tend to think &quot;round tr=
ip time,&quot; but the explanation of 0-RTT seems to have more to do with e=
ncryption setup during connection initialization than any tie to which roun=
d trip completes the setup. I find this confusing.<br clear=3D"all"><div><b=
r></div><div>Would someone comment and either show me the definition I miss=
ed or add one to the next draft?</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div=
>Bill Herrin</div><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_sig=
nature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>William Herrin</div><div><a href=3D"mailto:bi=
ll@herrin.us" target=3D"_blank">bill@herrin.us</a></div><div><a href=3D"htt=
ps://bill.herrin.us/" target=3D"_blank">https://bill.herrin.us/</a><br></di=
v></div></div></div></div></div>

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From: "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>
To: William Herrin <bill@herrin.us>
CC: "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Question about 0-RTT
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From: William Herrin <bill@herrin.us>
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2019 16:52:09 -0700
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Subject: Re: Question about 0-RTT
To: "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>
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Thanks Igor,

I get the impression in RFC8446 that 0-RTT data is literally transmitted in
the first round trip before the server returns back the key. After the
first round trip, the data is always encrypted. Is that accurate?

Is that true in QUIC as well? I was under the (possibly mistaken)
impression that quic will in some cases need additional round trips before
negotiation is complete and it moves to the 1-RTT state?

Regardless, can something be added to section 1.2 (terms and definitions)
referring the reader to the explanation of 0-RTT and 1-RTT?

Thanks,
Bill Herrin


On Wed, Jul 3, 2019 at 4:21 PM Lubashev, Igor <ilubashe@akamai.com> wrote:

> Hi Bill,
>
>
>
> 0-RTT is a term commonly used by TLS =E2=80=93 the crypto protocol that Q=
UIC uses
> to secure data.
>
> See https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8446#section-2.3.
>
>
>
> 0-RTT is a feature of a protocol that allows data to be delivered to the
> other endpoint in less than 1 RTT (round trip time) from the connection
> initiation (more accurately, it is a protocol feature that allows data to
> be sent before the protocol handshake is complete).
>
>
>
> 0-RTT data (also known as =E2=80=9Cearly data=E2=80=9D) is the data that =
is sent before
> the handshake completion.  0-RTT packets are packets containing 0-RTT dat=
a.
>
>
>
>    - Igor
>
>
>
> *From:* William Herrin <bill@herrin.us>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 03, 2019 6:29 PM
> *To:* quic@ietf.org
> *Subject:* Question about 0-RTT
>
>
>
> Hi folks,
>
>
>
> Reading https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-quic-transport-20
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_ht=
ml_draft-2Dietf-2Dquic-2Dtransport-2D20&d=3DDwMFaQ&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6L=
Zg&r=3DDjn3bQ5uNJDPM_2skfL3rW1tzcIxyjUZdn_m55KPmlo&m=3DmsfZzbaeOpr7Gt4WhhK5=
mhZnk3Rzx2GqgBOkE18nG6c&s=3DQp2ZTiT1jKK_6xTpaZAgSlJK9epps9hNNzWC7KxS7Js&e=
=3D>,
> I have a question about 0-RTT: What is it?
>
>
>
> The draft talks a lot about it, but I didn't see anywhere that clearly
> defined what it is. When I see "RTT" without a definition I tend to think
> "round trip time," but the explanation of 0-RTT seems to have more to do
> with encryption setup during connection initialization than any tie to
> which round trip completes the setup. I find this confusing.
>
>
>
> Would someone comment and either show me the definition I missed or add
> one to the next draft?
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Bill Herrin
>
>
>
> --
>
> William Herrin
>
> bill@herrin.us
>
> https://bill.herrin.us/
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__bill.herrin.us_&d=
=3DDwMFaQ&c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=3DDjn3bQ5uNJDPM_2skfL3rW1tzcIxyjUZdn=
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HKFAOfs473d_g6_fQPYYjttzpRopic&e=3D>
>


--=20
William Herrin
bill@herrin.us
https://bill.herrin.us/

--0000000000004eddde058ccf8dac
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Thanks Igor,</div><div><br></div><div>I get the impre=
ssion in RFC8446 that 0-RTT data is literally transmitted in the first roun=
d trip before the server returns back the key. After the first round trip, =
the data is always encrypted. Is that accurate?</div><div><br></div><div>Is=
 that true in QUIC as well? I was under the (possibly mistaken) impression =
that quic will in some cases need additional round trips before negotiation=
 is complete and it moves to the 1-RTT state?</div><div><br></div><div>Rega=
rdless, can something be added to section 1.2 (terms and definitions) refer=
ring the reader to the explanation of 0-RTT and 1-RTT?</div><div><br></div>=
<div>Thanks,</div><div>Bill Herrin</div><div><br></div><br><div class=3D"gm=
ail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Jul 3, 2019 at 4:2=
1 PM Lubashev, Igor &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ilubashe@akamai.com">ilubashe@aka=
mai.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;bord=
er-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_-2173594856085603062WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Bill,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">0-RTT is a term commonly used by TLS =E2=80=93 the c=
rypto protocol that QUIC uses to secure data.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">See <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8446#s=
ection-2.3" target=3D"_blank">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8446#section-2.3</a>.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">0-RTT is a feature of a protocol that allows data to=
 be delivered to the other endpoint in less than 1 RTT (round trip time) fr=
om the connection initiation (more accurately, it is a protocol feature tha=
t allows data to be sent before the
 protocol handshake is complete).<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">0-RTT data (also known as =E2=80=9Cearly data=E2=80=
=9D) is the data that is sent before the handshake completion.=C2=A0 0-RTT =
packets are packets containing 0-RTT data.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"gmail-m_-2173594856085603062MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-=
left:0in">Igor<u></u><u></u></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-width:1.5pt;bor=
der-left-color:blue;padding:0in 0in 0in 4pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border-style:solid none none;border-top-width:1pt;border-top-=
color:rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> William Herrin &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bi=
ll@herrin.us" target=3D"_blank">bill@herrin.us</a>&gt; <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, July 03, 2019 6:29 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic@ietf.org=
</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Question about 0-RTT<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi folks,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Reading=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoin=
t.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__tools.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dietf-2Dquic-2Dtransp=
ort-2D20&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&amp;r=3DDjn3bQ5uNJDP=
M_2skfL3rW1tzcIxyjUZdn_m55KPmlo&amp;m=3DmsfZzbaeOpr7Gt4WhhK5mhZnk3Rzx2GqgBO=
kE18nG6c&amp;s=3DQp2ZTiT1jKK_6xTpaZAgSlJK9epps9hNNzWC7KxS7Js&amp;e=3D" targ=
et=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-quic-transport-20</a>,
 I have a question about 0-RTT: What is it?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The draft talks a lot about it, but I didn&#39;t see=
 anywhere that clearly defined what it is. When I see &quot;RTT&quot; witho=
ut a definition I tend to think &quot;round trip time,&quot; but the explan=
ation of 0-RTT seems to have more to do with encryption setup
 during connection initialization than any tie to which round trip complete=
s the setup. I find this confusing.<br clear=3D"all">
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Would someone comment and either show me the definit=
ion I missed or add one to the next draft?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Bill Herrin<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">-- <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">William Herrin<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"mailto:bill@herrin.us" target=3D"_blank">=
bill@herrin.us</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?=
u=3Dhttps-3A__bill.herrin.us_&amp;d=3DDwMFaQ&amp;c=3D96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg=
&amp;r=3DDjn3bQ5uNJDPM_2skfL3rW1tzcIxyjUZdn_m55KPmlo&amp;m=3DmsfZzbaeOpr7Gt=
4WhhK5mhZnk3Rzx2GqgBOkE18nG6c&amp;s=3DjPAJj-S1TqI7CHKFAOfs473d_g6_fQPYYjttz=
pRopic&amp;e=3D" target=3D"_blank">https://bill.herrin.us/</a><u></u><u></u=
></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"=
 class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>William Herrin</div><div><=
a href=3D"mailto:bill@herrin.us" target=3D"_blank">bill@herrin.us</a></div>=
<div><a href=3D"https://bill.herrin.us/" target=3D"_blank">https://bill.her=
rin.us/</a><br></div></div></div></div>

--0000000000004eddde058ccf8dac--


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Subject: Re: Question about 0-RTT
To: William Herrin <bill@herrin.us>
Cc: "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>
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On Wed, Jul 3, 2019 at 7:54 PM William Herrin <bill@herrin.us> wrote:

> Thanks Igor,
>
> I get the impression in RFC8446 that 0-RTT data is literally transmitted
> in the first round trip before the server returns back the key. After the
> first round trip, the data is always encrypted. Is that accurate?
>

it is encrypted in both the first round trip and thereafter - the two
phases just use different keys. The 0-RTT key is distributed in an earlier
session (so this is only for repeat visitors). Its not ephemeral to the
session you're in, so it is replaced with the ephemeral 1-RTT key as soon
as possible.

>
>

--0000000000000dd3d2058cd079ce
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Jul 3, 2019 at 7:54 PM Willia=
m Herrin &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:bill@herrin.us">bill@herrin.us</a>&gt; wrote=
:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.=
8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"lt=
r"><div>Thanks Igor,</div><div><br></div><div>I get the impression in RFC84=
46 that 0-RTT data is literally transmitted in the first round trip before =
the server returns back the key. After the first round trip, the data is al=
ways encrypted. Is that accurate?</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><d=
iv>it is encrypted in both the first round trip and thereafter - the two ph=
ases just use different keys. The 0-RTT key is distributed in an earlier se=
ssion (so this is only for repeat visitors). Its not ephemeral to the sessi=
on you&#39;re in, so it is replaced with the ephemeral 1-RTT key as soon as=
 possible.</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0=
px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail-m_1419172771554903271gmail_signatu=
re"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div></div></div></div>
</blockquote></div></div>

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From: "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>
To: William Herrin <bill@herrin.us>
CC: "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Question about 0-RTT
Thread-Topic: Question about 0-RTT
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From: Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 17:42:07 +0900
Message-ID: <CANatvzym7Da28HXdOtmv8GdGpPYaOyX943gv_Y=dXweFJHpwqg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Submission of QUIC-AH draft-01, with support for version number greasing (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-quic-authenticated-handshake-01.txt)
To: IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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Hi all,

Christian and I have submitted -01 of
draft-ietf-quic-authenticated-handshake (QUIC-AH), that descriibes a
variant of QUIC v1 that uses ESNI [1] to protect Initial packets (and
therefore the entire lifetime of a QUIC connection) from MITM attacks.

Since -00 [2], we have fixed a design flaw (pointed out by EKR), added
Considerations, and introduced the capability to advertise alternative
QUIC version numbers to be used on the wire, as we have discussed in
London [3].

Version number greasing, the new feature in -01, works as follows:

1. Alternative versions to be used on the wire is published using DNS,
through an extension of the ESNI Resource Record. ESNI requires the
Resource Record be known to the server.
2. Client that supports QUIC-AH picks one of the wire-versions found
in the ESNI RR. The obfuscation key of the Initial packet is derived
the same way as QUICv1 (i.e. from DCID).
3. The server, with the knowledge of the mapping between the versions
on the wire and the actual versions, decodes and processes the Initial
packet.

I think that this design is simple, and that it would be trivial to
implement on top of QUIC-AH (or on top of QUIC v1/TLS+ESNI, if the WG
prefers just using the version number greasing but not the
=E2=80=9Cauthenticated handshake=E2=80=9D part of the I-D).

That said, I think the broader question is how we should protect not
only the version number field but also other non-encrypted fields of
QUIC packets (e.g., payload format of Initial packet =3D ClientHello)
from getting ossified. I think there are three options:

a) Merely obfuscate the version number field. That's what is currently
being achieved by the draft.

b) In addition to the version numbers, advertise alternative salt
values to be used on the wire using the ESNI Resource Record. Doing so
does not prevent a middlebox from observing the content of ClientHello
(even though it cannot see the plaintext SNI), however it would
require the middlebox more work, as it needs to fetch the ESNI
Resource Record to obtain the salt. IIRC, this is analogous to what
was proposed in #2573 [4].

c) Encrypt the Initial payload [5]. ESNI provides a semi-static public
key known to the server. In case of ESNI, that key is used to encrypt
only the server name, but in case of QUIC, because the format of the
Initial packet is not yet encrypted, we have the freedom to change the
design as we would like. That would be the ultimate method to prevent
the payload of v1 CRYPTO frame from getting ossified. Though in turn,
the way the client encodes it's public key in the AH Initial packet
(most likely a particular encoding of HPKE [6]) could become an
ossification vector.

What do you think? I would appreciate it if you could give us
feedback, either on QUIC-AH in general, or on the version number
greasing design.


[1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tls-esni-03
[2] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/quic/DdT-gIgzxUDnSajyoMwDm1A_URQ
[3] https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2496
[4] https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2573
[5] https://github.com/kazuho/draft-kazuho-quic-authenticated-handshake/iss=
ues/9
[6] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-barnes-cfrg-hpke-01



---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
Date: 2019=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=885=E6=97=A5(=E9=87=91) 17:37
Subject: New Version Notification for
draft-kazuho-quic-authenticated-handshake-01.txt
To: Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.ne=
t>



A new version of I-D, draft-kazuho-quic-authenticated-handshake-01.txt
has been successfully submitted by Kazuho Oku and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:           draft-kazuho-quic-authenticated-handshake
Revision:       01
Title:          Authenticated Handshake for QUIC
Document date:  2019-07-05
Group:          Individual Submission
Pages:          11
URL:
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-kazuho-quic-authenticated-handsh=
ake-01.txt
Status:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kazuho-quic-authenticated-handshake/
Htmlized:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kazuho-quic-authenticated-handshake-01
Htmlized:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-kazuho-quic-authenticated-hands=
hake
Diff:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-kazuho-quic-authenticated-handsha=
ke-01

Abstract:
   This document explains a variant of QUIC protocol version 1 that uses
   the ESNI Keys to authenticate the Initial packets thereby making the
   entire handshake tamper-proof.




Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio=
n
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat



--=20
Kazuho Oku


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From: Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2019 17:43:39 +0900
Message-ID: <CANatvzyQs47sU1NPUQ4LTcRRSs376WE==ry3ac+n3y0PG-_52g@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Submission of QUIC-AH draft-01, with support for version number greasing (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-quic-authenticated-handshake-01.txt)
To: IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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PS. Apologies, I failed to put the link to the new I-D at the top of
my mail. Maybe it's obvious, but it's
https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-kazuho-quic-authenticated-handshake-01.txt.

2019=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=885=E6=97=A5(=E9=87=91) 17:42 Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gm=
ail.com>:
>
> Hi all,
>
> Christian and I have submitted -01 of
> draft-ietf-quic-authenticated-handshake (QUIC-AH), that descriibes a
> variant of QUIC v1 that uses ESNI [1] to protect Initial packets (and
> therefore the entire lifetime of a QUIC connection) from MITM attacks.
>
> Since -00 [2], we have fixed a design flaw (pointed out by EKR), added
> Considerations, and introduced the capability to advertise alternative
> QUIC version numbers to be used on the wire, as we have discussed in
> London [3].
>
> Version number greasing, the new feature in -01, works as follows:
>
> 1. Alternative versions to be used on the wire is published using DNS,
> through an extension of the ESNI Resource Record. ESNI requires the
> Resource Record be known to the server.
> 2. Client that supports QUIC-AH picks one of the wire-versions found
> in the ESNI RR. The obfuscation key of the Initial packet is derived
> the same way as QUICv1 (i.e. from DCID).
> 3. The server, with the knowledge of the mapping between the versions
> on the wire and the actual versions, decodes and processes the Initial
> packet.
>
> I think that this design is simple, and that it would be trivial to
> implement on top of QUIC-AH (or on top of QUIC v1/TLS+ESNI, if the WG
> prefers just using the version number greasing but not the
> =E2=80=9Cauthenticated handshake=E2=80=9D part of the I-D).
>
> That said, I think the broader question is how we should protect not
> only the version number field but also other non-encrypted fields of
> QUIC packets (e.g., payload format of Initial packet =3D ClientHello)
> from getting ossified. I think there are three options:
>
> a) Merely obfuscate the version number field. That's what is currently
> being achieved by the draft.
>
> b) In addition to the version numbers, advertise alternative salt
> values to be used on the wire using the ESNI Resource Record. Doing so
> does not prevent a middlebox from observing the content of ClientHello
> (even though it cannot see the plaintext SNI), however it would
> require the middlebox more work, as it needs to fetch the ESNI
> Resource Record to obtain the salt. IIRC, this is analogous to what
> was proposed in #2573 [4].
>
> c) Encrypt the Initial payload [5]. ESNI provides a semi-static public
> key known to the server. In case of ESNI, that key is used to encrypt
> only the server name, but in case of QUIC, because the format of the
> Initial packet is not yet encrypted, we have the freedom to change the
> design as we would like. That would be the ultimate method to prevent
> the payload of v1 CRYPTO frame from getting ossified. Though in turn,
> the way the client encodes it's public key in the AH Initial packet
> (most likely a particular encoding of HPKE [6]) could become an
> ossification vector.
>
> What do you think? I would appreciate it if you could give us
> feedback, either on QUIC-AH in general, or on the version number
> greasing design.
>
>
> [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tls-esni-03
> [2] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/quic/DdT-gIgzxUDnSajyoMwDm1A_UR=
Q
> [3] https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2496
> [4] https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2573
> [5] https://github.com/kazuho/draft-kazuho-quic-authenticated-handshake/i=
ssues/9
> [6] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-barnes-cfrg-hpke-01
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
> Date: 2019=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=885=E6=97=A5(=E9=87=91) 17:37
> Subject: New Version Notification for
> draft-kazuho-quic-authenticated-handshake-01.txt
> To: Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.=
net>
>
>
>
> A new version of I-D, draft-kazuho-quic-authenticated-handshake-01.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Kazuho Oku and posted to the
> IETF repository.
>
> Name:           draft-kazuho-quic-authenticated-handshake
> Revision:       01
> Title:          Authenticated Handshake for QUIC
> Document date:  2019-07-05
> Group:          Individual Submission
> Pages:          11
> URL:
> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-kazuho-quic-authenticated-hand=
shake-01.txt
> Status:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kazuho-quic-authenticated-handshak=
e/
> Htmlized:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kazuho-quic-authenticated-handshake-01
> Htmlized:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-kazuho-quic-authenticated-han=
dshake
> Diff:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-kazuho-quic-authenticated-hands=
hake-01
>
> Abstract:
>    This document explains a variant of QUIC protocol version 1 that uses
>    the ESNI Keys to authenticate the Initial packets thereby making the
>    entire handshake tamper-proof.
>
>
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss=
ion
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>
> The IETF Secretariat
>
>
>
> --
> Kazuho Oku



--=20
Kazuho Oku


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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the QUIC WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Applicability of the QUIC Transport Protocol
        Authors         : Mirja Kuehlewind
                          Brian Trammell
	Filename        : draft-ietf-quic-applicability-05.txt
	Pages           : 16
	Date            : 2019-07-05

Abstract:
   This document discusses the applicability of the QUIC transport
   protocol, focusing on caveats impacting application protocol
   development and deployment over QUIC.  Its intended audience is
   designers of application protocol mappings to QUIC, and implementors
   of these application protocols.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-quic-applicability/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-quic-applicability-05
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-quic-applicability-05

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-quic-applicability-05


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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the QUIC WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Manageability of the QUIC Transport Protocol
        Authors         : Mirja Kuehlewind
                          Brian Trammell
	Filename        : draft-ietf-quic-manageability-05.txt
	Pages           : 21
	Date            : 2019-07-05

Abstract:
   This document discusses manageability of the QUIC transport protocol,
   focusing on caveats impacting network operations involving QUIC
   traffic.  Its intended audience is network operators, as well as
   content providers that rely on the use of QUIC-aware middleboxes,
   e.g. for load balancing.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-quic-manageability/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-quic-manageability-05
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-quic-manageability-05

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-quic-manageability-05


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until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

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From nobody Fri Jul  5 03:45:45 2019
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Greetings, all,

We've submitted updated revisions of the applicability and manageability =
drafts, mainly rolling up editor-generated text for open issues, in =
advance of the meeting in Montreal.

We have a few open issues: https://github.com/quicwg/ops-drafts/issues. =
Some of these are pending on open issues in the transport, the others =
need text from contributors other than us. This is your friendly =
reminder to volunteer for these if you can help, before we start =
tracking down people in the hallways in Montreal and volunteering them. =
;)

Thanks, cheers,

Brian (for the editors)

> On 5 Jul 2019, at 10:47, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:
>=20
>=20
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts =
directories.
> This draft is a work item of the QUIC WG of the IETF.
>=20
>        Title           : Manageability of the QUIC Transport Protocol
>        Authors         : Mirja Kuehlewind
>                          Brian Trammell
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-quic-manageability-05.txt
> 	Pages           : 21
> 	Date            : 2019-07-05
>=20
> Abstract:
>   This document discusses manageability of the QUIC transport =
protocol,
>   focusing on caveats impacting network operations involving QUIC
>   traffic.  Its intended audience is network operators, as well as
>   content providers that rely on the use of QUIC-aware middleboxes,
>   e.g. for load balancing.
>=20
>=20
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-quic-manageability/
>=20
> There are also htmlized versions available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-quic-manageability-05
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-quic-manageability-05
>=20
> A diff from the previous version is available at:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-quic-manageability-05
>=20
>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>=20
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>=20


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Issues
------
* quicwg/base-drafts (+4/-3/=F0=9F=92=AC40)
  4 issues created:
  - transport: dangling references (by reschke)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2874 =

  - Retransmission Instructions do not include NEW_TOKEN (by martinduke)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2871 =

  - Stateless Reset packet sizes should not depend on the maximum connectio=
n ID length (by DavidSchinazi)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2869 =

  - unrecoverable loss pattern leads to deadlock (by marten-seemann)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2863 =


  12 issues received 40 new comments:
  - #2869 Stateless Reset packet sizes should not depend on the maximum con=
nection ID length (10 by DavidSchinazi, martinthomson, ianswett)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2869 [-transport] =

  - #2863 unrecoverable loss pattern leads to deadlock (6 by kazuho, marten=
-seemann, nibanks, martinthomson, mikkelfj)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2863 [-transport] [design] =

  - #2778 CID change still required in response to migration? (6 by kazuho,=
 tatsuhiro-t, larseggert, mikkelfj)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2778 [-transport] [editori=
al] =

  - #2823 Do Initial secrets change after Retry packet? (4 by martinthomson=
, nharper, larseggert, dtikhonov)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2823 [-tls] [editorial] =

  - #2153 Increase the odds of a stateless reset? (4 by martinthomson, mikk=
elfj)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2153 [-transport] =

  - #2837 Does a Retry really need to change the CID? (3 by DavidSchinazi, =
larseggert, ianswett)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2837 [-transport] =

  - #2838 Provide Signal that SCID is client assigned (2 by martinthomson, =
larseggert)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2838 [-invariants] [-trans=
port] =

  - #2818 Invalid Push ID error codes (1 by LPardue)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2818 [-http] =

  - #2789 Use a higher seed RTT for new paths (1 by gorryfair)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2789 [-recovery] [design] =

  - #2760 NEW_TOKEN should be symmetric (1 by martinthomson)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2760 [-transport] [design] =

  - #2777 HTTP/3 Cookie Crumbling (1 by bencebeky)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2777 [-http] [design] =

  - #2815 H3 has a stale reference to STREAM_ID_ERROR (1 by LPardue)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2815 [-http] =


  3 issues closed:
  - Provide Signal that SCID is client assigned https://github.com/quicwg/b=
ase-drafts/issues/2838 [-invariants] [-transport] =

  - Invalid Push ID error codes https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issue=
s/2818 [-http] =

  - Why would late-arriving packets create state? https://github.com/quicwg=
/base-drafts/issues/2148 [-transport] [editorial] =




Pull requests
-------------
* quicwg/base-drafts (+9/-4/=F0=9F=92=AC15)
  9 pull requests submitted:
  - grease transport parameters (by marten-seemann)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2873 =

  - move definition of active_connection_id_limit to where it belongs (by m=
arten-seemann)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2872 =

  - Initial secrets change after Retry (by martinthomson)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2870 [-tls] [editorial] =

  - Add normative reference to RFC7540 8.1.2.5. (by bencebeky)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2868 =

  - Tighten HEADERS and DATA frame order requirements. (by bencebeky)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2867 =

  - Don't state QUIC error codes in HTTP/3 (by LPardue)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2866 =

  - Fix HPACK xref (by LPardue)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2865 =

  - Explicitly allow discard of packets <40 bytes (by martinthomson)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2864 [-transport] [design] =

  - remove incorrect statement about empty STREAM frames (by marten-seemann)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2862 =


  6 pull requests received 15 new comments:
  - #2662 Replace HTTP_MALFORMED_FRAME error code (8 by kazuho, LPardue, ia=
nswett)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2662 [-http] [design] =

  - #2864 Explicitly allow discard of packets <40 bytes (3 by DavidSchinazi=
, martinthomson)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2864 [-transport] [design] =

  - #2859 Delayed packets can't create state (1 by martinthomson)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2859 [-transport] [editorial=
] =

  - #2677 Trigger unhappy (1 by LPardue)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2677 [-http] [editorial] =

  - #2806 Merge Crypto timeout and PTO (1 by ianswett)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2806 [-recovery] =

  - #2870 Initial secrets change after Retry (1 by nharper)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2870 [-tls] [editorial] =


  4 pull requests merged:
  - move definition of active_connection_id_limit to where it belongs
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2872 [-transport] [editorial=
] =

  - Delayed packets can't create state
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2859 [-transport] [editorial=
] =

  - Fix grammar
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2860 [-tls] [editorial] =

  - remove incorrect statement about empty STREAM frames
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2862 [-tls] [editorial] =



Repositories tracked by this digest:
-----------------------------------
* https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts

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<h1>Sunday July 07, 2019</h1>


<h2>Issues</h2>

<h3>quicwg/base-drafts (+4/-3/=F0=9F=92=AC40)</h3>
  <p class=3D"new">4 issues created:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#2874 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2874">t=
ransport: dangling references</a> (by reschke) </li>
  =

  <li>#2871 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2871">R=
etransmission Instructions do not include NEW_TOKEN</a> (by martinduke) </l=
i>
  =

  <li>#2869 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2869">S=
tateless Reset packet sizes should not depend on the maximum connection ID =
length</a> (by DavidSchinazi) </li>
  =

  <li>#2863 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2863">u=
nrecoverable loss pattern leads to deadlock</a> (by marten-seemann) </li>
  </ul>

  <p>12 issues received 40 new comments:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#2869 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2869">S=
tateless Reset packet sizes should not depend on the maximum connection ID =
length</a> (10 by DavidSchinazi, martinthomson, ianswett) <span class=3D"la=
bel" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-transport</span> =
</li>
  =

  <li>#2863 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2863">u=
nrecoverable loss pattern leads to deadlock</a> (6 by kazuho, marten-seeman=
n, nibanks, martinthomson, mikkelfj) <span class=3D"label" style=3D"backgro=
und-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-transport</span> <span class=3D"label"=
 style=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color: #ffffff">design</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2778 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2778">C=
ID change still required in response to migration?</a> (6 by kazuho, tatsuh=
iro-t, larseggert, mikkelfj) <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-colo=
r: #fbca04; color: #000000">-transport</span> <span class=3D"label" style=
=3D"background-color: #0e8a16; color: #ffffff">editorial</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2823 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2823">D=
o Initial secrets change after Retry packet?</a> (4 by martinthomson, nharp=
er, larseggert, dtikhonov) <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color:=
 #fbca04; color: #000000">-tls</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"backgr=
ound-color: #0e8a16; color: #ffffff">editorial</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2153 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2153">I=
ncrease the odds of a stateless reset?</a> (4 by martinthomson, mikkelfj) <=
span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-t=
ransport</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2837 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2837">D=
oes a Retry really need to change the CID?</a> (3 by DavidSchinazi, larsegg=
ert, ianswett) <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; co=
lor: #000000">-transport</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2838 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2838">P=
rovide Signal that SCID is client assigned</a> (2 by martinthomson, larsegg=
ert) <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #0000=
00">-invariants</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fb=
ca04; color: #000000">-transport</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2818 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2818">I=
nvalid Push ID error codes</a> (1 by LPardue) <span class=3D"label" style=
=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-http</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2789 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2789">U=
se a higher seed RTT for new paths</a> (1 by gorryfair) <span class=3D"labe=
l" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-recovery</span> <sp=
an class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color: #ffffff">desi=
gn</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2760 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2760">N=
EW_TOKEN should be symmetric</a> (1 by martinthomson) <span class=3D"label"=
 style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-transport</span> <spa=
n class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color: #ffffff">desig=
n</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2777 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2777">H=
TTP/3 Cookie Crumbling</a> (1 by bencebeky) <span class=3D"label" style=3D"=
background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-http</span> <span class=3D"labe=
l" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color: #ffffff">design</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2815 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2815">H=
3 has a stale reference to STREAM_ID_ERROR</a> (1 by LPardue) <span class=
=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-http</span>=
 </li>
  </ul>

  <p>3 issues closed:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#2838 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2838">P=
rovide Signal that SCID is client assigned</a> <span class=3D"label" style=
=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-invariants</span> <span cla=
ss=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-transport=
</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2818 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2818">I=
nvalid Push ID error codes</a> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-co=
lor: #fbca04; color: #000000">-http</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2148 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2148">W=
hy would late-arriving packets create state?</a> <span class=3D"label" styl=
e=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-transport</span> <span cla=
ss=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #0e8a16; color: #ffffff">editorial<=
/span> </li>
  </ul>



<h2>Pull requests</h2>
<h3>quicwg/base-drafts (+9/-4/=F0=9F=92=AC15)</h3>
  <p class=3D"new">9 pull requests submitted:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#2873 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2873">gre=
ase transport parameters</a> (by marten-seemann) </li>
  =

  <li>#2872 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2872">mov=
e definition of active_connection_id_limit to where it belongs</a> (by mart=
en-seemann) </li>
  =

  <li>#2870 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2870">Ini=
tial secrets change after Retry</a> (by martinthomson) <span class=3D"label=
" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #">-tls</span> <span class=3D"=
label" style=3D"background-color: #0e8a16; color: #">editorial</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2868 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2868">Add=
 normative reference to RFC7540 8.1.2.5.</a> (by bencebeky) </li>
  =

  <li>#2867 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2867">Tig=
hten HEADERS and DATA frame order requirements.</a> (by bencebeky) </li>
  =

  <li>#2866 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2866">Don=
&#x27;t state QUIC error codes in HTTP/3</a> (by LPardue) </li>
  =

  <li>#2865 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2865">Fix=
 HPACK xref</a> (by LPardue) </li>
  =

  <li>#2864 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2864">Exp=
licitly allow discard of packets &lt;40 bytes</a> (by martinthomson) <span =
class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #">-transport</s=
pan> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color: #">de=
sign</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2862 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2862">rem=
ove incorrect statement about empty STREAM frames</a> (by marten-seemann) <=
/li>
  </ul>

  <p>6 pull requests received 15 new comments:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#2662 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2662">Rep=
lace HTTP_MALFORMED_FRAME error code</a> (8 by kazuho, LPardue, ianswett) <=
span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-h=
ttp</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color:=
 #ffffff">design</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2864 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2864">Exp=
licitly allow discard of packets &lt;40 bytes</a> (3 by DavidSchinazi, mart=
inthomson) <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color:=
 #000000">-transport</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color=
: #1d76db; color: #ffffff">design</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2859 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2859">Del=
ayed packets can&#x27;t create state</a> (1 by martinthomson) <span class=
=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-transport</=
span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #0e8a16; color: #fff=
fff">editorial</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2677 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2677">Tri=
gger unhappy</a> (1 by LPardue) <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-c=
olor: #fbca04; color: #000000">-http</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"=
background-color: #0e8a16; color: #ffffff">editorial</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2806 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2806">Mer=
ge Crypto timeout and PTO</a> (1 by ianswett) <span class=3D"label" style=
=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-recovery</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2870 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2870">Ini=
tial secrets change after Retry</a> (1 by nharper) <span class=3D"label" st=
yle=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-tls</span> <span class=
=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #0e8a16; color: #ffffff">editorial</s=
pan> </li>
  </ul>

  <p>4 pull requests merged:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#2872 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2872">mov=
e definition of active_connection_id_limit to where it belongs</a> <span cl=
ass=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #">-transport</spa=
n> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #0e8a16; color: #">edit=
orial</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2859 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2859">Del=
ayed packets can&#x27;t create state</a> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"bac=
kground-color: #fbca04; color: #">-transport</span> <span class=3D"label" s=
tyle=3D"background-color: #0e8a16; color: #">editorial</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2860 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2860">Fix=
 grammar</a> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; colo=
r: #">-tls</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #0e8a16;=
 color: #">editorial</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2862 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2862">rem=
ove incorrect statement about empty STREAM frames</a> <span class=3D"label"=
 style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #">-tls</span> <span class=3D"l=
abel" style=3D"background-color: #0e8a16; color: #">editorial</span> </li>
  </ul>


<h2>Repositories tracked by this digest:</h2>
<ul class=3D"repos">
  <li><a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts">https://github.com/=
quicwg/base-drafts</a></li>
  </ul>
</body>
</html>

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Subject: Re: Consensus Calls on Recent Transport/TLS Issues
From: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
In-Reply-To: <B047C15F-5143-4F89-8683-DB28C76B79DB@mnot.net>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 11:14:41 +1000
Cc: Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>
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To: IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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Not hearing any pushback, these have consensus.


> On 1 Jul 2019, at 12:21 pm, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:
>=20
> The following issues have proposals for resolution, and discussion so =
far seems to support consensus to accept them. If you object, please do =
so on the issue or in response to this message (changing the Subject =
appropriately!).
>=20
> See <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/projects/5> for the current =
state of issues in the Late Stage process.
>=20
> * #2839: Consider adding flags transport parameter for extension, =
frame, or feature negotiation
>   The proposal is to close this issue with 'quicv2' -- i.e., no =
current action.
>=20
> * #2724: Clarify PATH_RESPONSE lack of retransmission in Path =
Validation
>   Proposal: <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2729>
>=20
> * #2645: Retire My Own CID
>  Proposal: <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2769>
>=20
> * #2638: max_ack_delay is unknown when a new connection is established
>  Proposal: <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2646>
>=20
> * #2546: ACK of ACK are useful
>  Proposal: <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2794>
>=20
> * #2309: Migration before handshake completed is very messy
>  Proposal: <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2370>
>=20
> * #2736: More Connection ID Space
>  Revised proposal: <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2749>
>=20
> --
> Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/
>=20

--
Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/


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From: Mirja Kuehlewind <mirja.kuehlewind@ericsson.com>
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From nobody Mon Jul  8 05:22:56 2019
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Hi Mirja,

another use case for proxying QUIC is to speed up QUIC's connection
establishment on high-latency access networks.

An article with more details can be found
here: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1907.01291.pdf

Best regards,
Erik

On 7/8/19 14:01, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> we posted an update of draft-kuehlewind-quic-substrate which some smaller edits, some more text on requirements for discovery, and a new sub use case (thanks Lucas!).
>
> Feedback would be very welcome! Also on github here:
>
> https://github.com/mirjak/draft-kuehlewind-quic-substrate
>
> Mirja
>
>
>
> ﻿On 05.07.19, 17:38, "internet-drafts@ietf.org" <internet-drafts@ietf.org> wrote:
>
>     
>     A new version of I-D, draft-kuehlewind-quic-substrate-01.txt
>     has been successfully submitted by Mirja Kuehlewind and posted to the
>     IETF repository.
>     
>     Name:		draft-kuehlewind-quic-substrate
>     Revision:	01
>     Title:		Use Cases and Requirements for QUIC as a Substrate
>     Document date:	2019-07-05
>     Group:		Individual Submission
>     Pages:		9
>     URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-kuehlewind-quic-substrate-01.txt
>     Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kuehlewind-quic-substrate/
>     Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kuehlewind-quic-substrate-01
>     Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-kuehlewind-quic-substrate
>     Diff:           https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-kuehlewind-quic-substrate-01
>     
>     Abstract:
>        TCP is often used as a proxying or tunneling protocol.  QUIC is a
>        new, emerging transport protocol and there is a similar expectation
>        that it too will be used as a substrate once it is widely deployed.
>        Using QUIC instead of TCP in existing scenarios will allow proxying
>        and tunneling services to maintain the benefits of QUIC natively,
>        without degrading the performance and security characteristics.  QUIC
>        also opens up new opportunities for these services to have lower
>        latency and better multistreaming support.  This document summarizes
>        current and future usage scenarios to derive requirements for QUIC
>        and to provide additional protocol considerations.
>     
>                                                                                       
>     
>     
>     Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
>     until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>     
>     The IETF Secretariat
>     
>     
>


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------D9xt21mMgj8HysE2-Y.M63mjS8_JkrNXBjpDkLoC2xhC_XEY=_a40c7_--


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--Apple-Mail=_6B39B886-8D39-41F6-A323-780AEB1C13D6
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	charset=utf-8

Hello all,

We=E2=80=99ve updated the QUIC DATAGRAM draft to incorporate some of the =
feedback we received at the side meeting in Prague. Notably, it =
clarifies:

- Guidance around datagram acknowledgements
- Datagrams do not participate in any flow control
- Datagrams do participate in congestion control

The remaining area of open discussion is around the newly re-named =
optional =E2=80=9Cflow identifiers=E2=80=9D. The primary argument for =
removing these is that applications can add identifiers onto datagrams =
themselves, and the transport should not transmit a field that it does =
not do anything with. We did add some text clarifying that these =
identifiers are essentially like UDP ports for demultiplexing, and =
pointed out some *minimal* things the transport can do to help batch =
transmission of datagrams in the same flow and promote fate-sharing =
within a flow. There=E2=80=99s been some discussion on Slack of other =
approaches that would make these flow IDs more first-class =
citizens=E2=80=94adding reliable signaling for opening and closing =
flows, as many applications would also generally need some similar sort =
of control channel=E2=80=94but these seem a bit heavy-weight. Either =
way, this is an area where discussion is welcome and I expect the =
document to change.

Best,
Tommy

> Begin forwarded message:
>=20
> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
> Subject: New Version Notification for draft-pauly-quic-datagram-03.txt
> Date: July 6, 2019 at 6:30:01 PM PDT
> To: Eric Kinnear <ekinnear@apple.com>, David Schinazi =
<dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com>, Tommy Pauly <tpauly@apple.com>
>=20
>=20
> A new version of I-D, draft-pauly-quic-datagram-03.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Tommy Pauly and posted to the
> IETF repository.
>=20
> Name:		draft-pauly-quic-datagram
> Revision:	03
> Title:		An Unreliable Datagram Extension to QUIC
> Document date:	2019-07-06
> Group:		Individual Submission
> Pages:		8
> URL:            =
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-pauly-quic-datagram-03.txt
> Status:         =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-pauly-quic-datagram/
> Htmlized:       =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pauly-quic-datagram-03
> Htmlized:       =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-pauly-quic-datagram
> Diff:           =
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-pauly-quic-datagram-03
>=20
> Abstract:
>   This document defines an extension to the QUIC transport protocol to
>   add support for sending and receiving unreliable datagrams over a
>   QUIC connection.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>=20
> The IETF Secretariat
>=20


--Apple-Mail=_6B39B886-8D39-41F6-A323-780AEB1C13D6
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Hello=
 all,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">We=E2=80=99ve =
updated the QUIC DATAGRAM draft to incorporate some of the feedback we =
received at the side meeting in Prague. Notably, it clarifies:</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">- Guidance around =
datagram acknowledgements</div><div class=3D"">- Datagrams do not =
participate in any flow control</div><div class=3D"">- Datagrams do =
participate in congestion control</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The remaining area of open discussion =
is around the newly re-named optional =E2=80=9Cflow identifiers=E2=80=9D. =
The primary argument for removing these is that applications can add =
identifiers onto datagrams themselves, and the transport should not =
transmit a field that it does not do anything with. We did add some text =
clarifying that these identifiers are essentially like UDP ports for =
demultiplexing, and pointed out some *minimal* things the transport can =
do to help batch transmission of datagrams in the same flow and promote =
fate-sharing within a flow. There=E2=80=99s been some discussion on =
Slack of other approaches that would make these flow IDs more =
first-class citizens=E2=80=94adding reliable signaling for opening and =
closing flows, as many applications would also generally need some =
similar sort of control channel=E2=80=94but these seem a bit =
heavy-weight. Either way, this is an area where discussion is welcome =
and I expect the document to change.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Best,</div><div =
class=3D"">Tommy</div><div class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">Begin forwarded =
message:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
-webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; =
color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">From: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica =
Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
-webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif; =
color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica =
Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">New Version =
Notification for draft-pauly-quic-datagram-03.txt</b><br =
class=3D""></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, =
sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">Date: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica =
Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">July 6, 2019 at 6:30:01 PM =
PDT<br class=3D""></span></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span=
 style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, =
sans-serif; color:rgba(0, 0, 0, 1.0);" class=3D""><b class=3D"">To: =
</b></span><span style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, Helvetica =
Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Eric Kinnear &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ekinnear@apple.com" class=3D"">ekinnear@apple.com</a>&gt;, =
David Schinazi &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;, Tommy Pauly &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:tpauly@apple.com" class=3D"">tpauly@apple.com</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""></span></div><br class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br=
 class=3D"">A new version of I-D, draft-pauly-quic-datagram-03.txt<br =
class=3D"">has been successfully submitted by Tommy Pauly and posted to =
the<br class=3D"">IETF repository.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Name:<span=
 class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>draft-pauly-quic-datagram<br class=3D"">Revision:<span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>03<br =
class=3D"">Title:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">=
	</span><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>An Unreliable Datagram Extension to QUIC<br class=3D"">Document =
date:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>2019-07-06<br class=3D"">Group:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>Individual Submission<br =
class=3D"">Pages:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">=
	</span><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>8<br class=3D"">URL: =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-pauly-quic-datagram-03.=
txt" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-pauly-quic-datagram-=
03.txt</a><br class=3D"">Status: =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-pauly-quic-datagram/" =
class=3D"">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-pauly-quic-datagram/</a>=
<br class=3D"">Htmlized: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pauly-quic-datagram-03" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pauly-quic-datagram-03</a><br=
 class=3D"">Htmlized: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-pauly-quic-datagram" =
class=3D"">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-pauly-quic-datagram=
</a><br class=3D"">Diff: =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-pauly-quic-datagram-03" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-pauly-quic-datagram-0=
3</a><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Abstract:<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;This document defines an extension to the QUIC transport =
protocol to<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;add support for sending and =
receiving unreliable datagrams over a<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;QUIC =
connection.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br=
 class=3D"">Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the =
time of submission<br class=3D"">until the htmlized version and diff are =
available at <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org" =
class=3D"">tools.ietf.org</a>.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">The IETF =
Secretariat<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_6B39B886-8D39-41F6-A323-780AEB1C13D6--


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From: Mirja Kuehlewind <mirja.kuehlewind@ericsson.com>
To: "sy@informatik.uni-hamburg.de" <sy@informatik.uni-hamburg.de>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>
CC: "masque@ietf.org" <masque@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-kuehlewind-quic-substrate-01.txt
Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-kuehlewind-quic-substrate-01.txt
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From: Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 14:34:00 -0700
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Subject: Handshake timeout failures?
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--0000000000007beda0058d32342c
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Is there somewhere in the drafts where we provide suggestions about how to
time out connections when not yet established? I believe the Idle Timeout
section applies specifically to established connections.

This need not be intensely prescriptive, but it would be nice to have some
guidelines on how not to fail too quickly.

--0000000000007beda0058d32342c
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Is there somewhere in the drafts where we provide sug=
gestions about how to time out connections when not yet established? I beli=
eve the Idle Timeout section applies specifically to established connection=
s.</div><div><br></div><div>This need not be intensely prescriptive, but it=
 would be nice to have some guidelines on how not to fail too quickly.</div=
></div>

--0000000000007beda0058d32342c--


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From: Nick Banks <nibanks@microsoft.com>
To: Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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The WG talked about dead path timeouts for a little bit (in Tokyo I think) =
but, at the time, decided to leave it to implementations. I personally thin=
k having a dead path timeout description in the text would be a good idea. =
I=92d be happy to revisit the discussion.

- Nick

Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=3D550986> for Window=
s 10
[HxS - 18936 - 16.0.11901.20042]

________________________________
From: QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@=
gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, July 8, 2019 4:34:00 PM
To: IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
Subject: Handshake timeout failures?

Is there somewhere in the drafts where we provide suggestions about how to =
time out connections when not yet established? I believe the Idle Timeout s=
ection applies specifically to established connections.

This need not be intensely prescriptive, but it would be nice to have some =
guidelines on how not to fail too quickly.

--_000_BYAPR21MB133486ABBED83A6907776708B3F60BYAPR21MB1334namp_
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<html>
<head>
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252">
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<meta name=3D"Generator" content=3D"Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)">
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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The WG talked about dead path timeouts for a little =
bit (in Tokyo I think) but, at the time, decided to leave it to implementat=
ions. I personally think having a dead path timeout description in the text=
 would be a good idea. I=92d be happy
 to revisit the discussion.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- Nick</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sent from <a href=3D"https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink=
/?LinkId=3D550986">
Mail</a> for Windows 10</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[HxS - 18936 - 16.0.11901.20042]</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<hr style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%" tabindex=3D"-1">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" st=
yle=3D"font-size:11pt" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> QUIC &lt;quic-bounces=
@ietf.org&gt; on behalf of Martin Duke &lt;martin.h.duke@gmail.com&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, July 8, 2019 4:34:00 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> IETF QUIC WG &lt;quic@ietf.org&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Handshake timeout failures?</font>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>Is there somewhere in the drafts where we provide suggestions about ho=
w to time out connections when not yet established? I believe the Idle Time=
out section applies specifically to established connections.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This need not be intensely prescriptive, but it would be nice to have =
some guidelines on how not to fail too quickly.</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_BYAPR21MB133486ABBED83A6907776708B3F60BYAPR21MB1334namp_--


From nobody Mon Jul  8 16:43:41 2019
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Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-quic-invariants-05.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the QUIC WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Version-Independent Properties of QUIC
        Author          : Martin Thomson
	Filename        : draft-ietf-quic-invariants-05.txt
	Pages           : 9
	Date            : 2019-07-08

Abstract:
   This document defines the properties of the QUIC transport protocol
   that are expected to remain unchanged over time as new versions of
   the protocol are developed.

Note to Readers

   Discussion of this draft takes place on the QUIC working group
   mailing list (quic@ietf.org), which is archived at
   https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?email_list=quic [1].

   Working Group information can be found at https://github.com/quicwg
   [2]; source code and issues list for this draft can be found at
   https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/labels/-invariants [3].


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-quic-invariants/

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https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-quic-invariants-05
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From nobody Mon Jul  8 16:43:54 2019
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the QUIC WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Using TLS to Secure QUIC
        Authors         : Martin Thomson
                          Sean Turner
	Filename        : draft-ietf-quic-tls-21.txt
	Pages           : 44
	Date            : 2019-07-08

Abstract:
   This document describes how Transport Layer Security (TLS) is used to
   secure QUIC.

Note to Readers

   Discussion of this draft takes place on the QUIC working group
   mailing list (quic@ietf.org), which is archived at
   https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?email_list=quic [1].

   Working Group information can be found at https://github.com/quicwg
   [2]; source code and issues list for this draft can be found at
   https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/labels/-tls [3].


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-quic-tls/

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https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-quic-tls-21
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From nobody Mon Jul  8 16:44:07 2019
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the QUIC WG of the IETF.

        Title           : QUIC: A UDP-Based Multiplexed and Secure Transport
        Authors         : Jana Iyengar
                          Martin Thomson
	Filename        : draft-ietf-quic-transport-21.txt
	Pages           : 147
	Date            : 2019-07-08

Abstract:
   This document defines the core of the QUIC transport protocol.
   Accompanying documents describe QUIC's loss detection and congestion
   control and the use of TLS for key negotiation.

Note to Readers

   Discussion of this draft takes place on the QUIC working group
   mailing list (quic@ietf.org), which is archived at
   <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?email_list=quic>.

   Working Group information can be found at <https://github.com/
   quicwg>; source code and issues list for this draft can be found at
   <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/labels/-transport>.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-quic-transport/

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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the QUIC WG of the IETF.

        Title           : QPACK: Header Compression for HTTP/3
        Authors         : Charles 'Buck' Krasic
                          Mike Bishop
                          Alan Frindell
	Filename        : draft-ietf-quic-qpack-09.txt
	Pages           : 37
	Date            : 2019-07-08

Abstract:
   This specification defines QPACK, a compression format for
   efficiently representing HTTP header fields, to be used in HTTP/3.
   This is a variation of HPACK header compression that seeks to reduce
   head-of-line blocking.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-quic-qpack/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-quic-qpack-09
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-quic-qpack-09

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https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-quic-qpack-09


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Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2019 10:05:06 +1000
From: "Martin Thomson" <mt@lowentropy.net>
To: quic@ietf.org
Subject: -21 drafts out, missing important changes
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For some reason, PR 2749, one of the main reasons we are publishing draft-21, didn't get merged.  Don't ask me how that happened.  Worse, the draft submission deadline just passed, so fixing this might get complicated.  Stay tuned.


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Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-quic-recovery-21.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the QUIC WG of the IETF.

        Title           : QUIC Loss Detection and Congestion Control
        Authors         : Jana Iyengar
                          Ian Swett
	Filename        : draft-ietf-quic-recovery-21.txt
	Pages           : 42
	Date            : 2019-07-08

Abstract:
   This document describes loss detection and congestion control
   mechanisms for QUIC.

Note to Readers

   Discussion of this draft takes place on the QUIC working group
   mailing list (quic@ietf.org), which is archived at
   https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?email_list=quic [1].

   Working Group information can be found at https://github.com/quicwg
   [2]; source code and issues list for this draft can be found at
   https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/labels/-recovery [3].


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-quic-recovery/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-quic-recovery-21
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-quic-recovery-21

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https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-quic-recovery-21


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From: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2019 22:22:47 -0400
Message-ID: <CAKcm_gMqGnq=0S=GaNLZm0tS=vfUDF3yDX7Zu=mEpwvYTfKs6Q@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Handshake timeout failures?
To: Nick Banks <nibanks=40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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--0000000000004715d9058d363dfa
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I think some text on both a handshake timeout(that's presumably shorter
than a standard idle timeout) and a dead path timeout would be helpful,
even if it's not normative.

On Mon, Jul 8, 2019 at 5:56 PM Nick Banks <nibanks=3D
40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

> The WG talked about dead path timeouts for a little bit (in Tokyo I think=
)
> but, at the time, decided to leave it to implementations. I personally
> think having a dead path timeout description in the text would be a good
> idea. I=E2=80=99d be happy to revisit the discussion.
>
>
>
> - Nick
>
>
>
> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=3D550986> for
> Windows 10
>
> [HxS - 18936 - 16.0.11901.20042]
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Martin Duke <
> martin.h.duke@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, July 8, 2019 4:34:00 PM
> *To:* IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Handshake timeout failures?
>
> Is there somewhere in the drafts where we provide suggestions about how t=
o
> time out connections when not yet established? I believe the Idle Timeout
> section applies specifically to established connections.
>
> This need not be intensely prescriptive, but it would be nice to have som=
e
> guidelines on how not to fail too quickly.
>

--0000000000004715d9058d363dfa
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">I think some text on both a handshake timeout(that&#39;s p=
resumably shorter than a standard idle timeout) and a dead path timeout wou=
ld be helpful, even if it&#39;s not normative.</div><br><div class=3D"gmail=
_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Jul 8, 2019 at 5:56 P=
M Nick Banks &lt;nibanks=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org=
">40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">



<div>


<div class=3D"gmail-m_-1205124174887045564WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The WG talked about dead path timeouts for a little =
bit (in Tokyo I think) but, at the time, decided to leave it to implementat=
ions. I personally think having a dead path timeout description in the text=
 would be a good idea. I=E2=80=99d be happy
 to revisit the discussion.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- Nick</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sent from <a href=3D"https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink=
/?LinkId=3D550986" target=3D"_blank">
Mail</a> for Windows 10</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[HxS - 18936 - 16.0.11901.20042]</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<hr style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%">
<div id=3D"gmail-m_-1205124174887045564divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font fac=
e=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" style=3D"font-size:11pt" color=3D"#000000"><b>Fro=
m:</b> QUIC &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">=
quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Martin Duke &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:martin.h.duke@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">martin.h.duke@gmail.com</a>&gt=
;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, July 8, 2019 4:34:00 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> IETF QUIC WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">quic@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Handshake timeout failures?</font>
<div>=C2=A0</div>
</div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>Is there somewhere in the drafts where we provide suggestions about ho=
w to time out connections when not yet established? I believe the Idle Time=
out section applies specifically to established connections.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This need not be intensely prescriptive, but it would be nice to have =
some guidelines on how not to fail too quickly.</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div>

--0000000000004715d9058d363dfa--


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From: "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>
To: Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>
CC: "isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com" <isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com>, "alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com" <alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com>
Subject: Packet Loss Signaling for Encrypted Protocols - draft-ferrieuxhamchaoui-tsvwg-lossbits
Thread-Topic: Packet Loss Signaling for Encrypted Protocols - draft-ferrieuxhamchaoui-tsvwg-lossbits
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Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 04:44:17 +0000
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Alexandre, Isabelle, and I have posted a draft on a method for endpoints to=
 signal packet loss to the path, while maintaining end user privacy and res=
isting ossification.  The method is protocol-independent, but of course you=
 get the most benefit by applying the method to encrypted transports, and Q=
UIC is what people usually think of first in such context.

The draft is not targeted at the QUIC WG specifically, since it is describi=
ng a general method of such loss reporting.  But we do mention QUIC, so the=
 WG may find it interesting.  We would welcome feedback from the QUIC WG.

Lars, Mark, I am sure the meeting agenda for Montreal is pretty tight, but =
if the WG is interested, we are happy to have a quick QUIC-specific present=
ation on this.

Thank you!

- Igor

P.S.  We've implemented this proposal in some Akamai servers and have been =
using it to serve actual end-user QUIC traffic for a subset of Orange custo=
mers.  Orange implemented a passive observer that used this signal to detec=
t and identify loss.  We can share the high-level of the results and will s=
hare the detailed analysis of the data and measurement techniques in maprg.

---------------------

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ferrieuxhamchaoui-tsvwg-lossbits/

Abstract:
   This document describes a protocol-independent method that employs
   two bits to allow endpoints to signal packet loss in a way that can
   be used by network devices to measure and locate the source of the
   loss.  The signaling method applies to all protocols with a protocol-
   specific way to identify packet loss.  The method is especially
   valuable when applied to protocols that encrypt transport header and
   do not allow an alternative method for loss detection.


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Subject: Re: Packet Loss Signaling for Encrypted Protocols - draft-ferrieuxhamchaoui-tsvwg-lossbits
From: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
In-Reply-To: <f405ea70fc994867b3585b267106bc84@ustx2ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 14:48:54 +1000
Cc: Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, "isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com" <isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com>, "alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com" <alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com>
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To: "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>
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Hi Igor,

Thanks for that. Our agenda is indeed tight, so I'd recommend discussing =
on the list and having side conversations in Montreal.

Thanks,


> On 9 Jul 2019, at 2:44 pm, Lubashev, Igor <ilubashe@akamai.com> wrote:
>=20
> Alexandre, Isabelle, and I have posted a draft on a method for =
endpoints to signal packet loss to the path, while maintaining end user =
privacy and resisting ossification.  The method is protocol-independent, =
but of course you get the most benefit by applying the method to =
encrypted transports, and QUIC is what people usually think of first in =
such context.
>=20
> The draft is not targeted at the QUIC WG specifically, since it is =
describing a general method of such loss reporting.  But we do mention =
QUIC, so the WG may find it interesting.  We would welcome feedback from =
the QUIC WG.
>=20
> Lars, Mark, I am sure the meeting agenda for Montreal is pretty tight, =
but if the WG is interested, we are happy to have a quick QUIC-specific =
presentation on this.
>=20
> Thank you!
>=20
> - Igor
>=20
> P.S.  We've implemented this proposal in some Akamai servers and have =
been using it to serve actual end-user QUIC traffic for a subset of =
Orange customers.  Orange implemented a passive observer that used this =
signal to detect and identify loss.  We can share the high-level of the =
results and will share the detailed analysis of the data and measurement =
techniques in maprg.
>=20
> ---------------------
>=20
> =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ferrieuxhamchaoui-tsvwg-lossbits/
>=20
> Abstract:
>   This document describes a protocol-independent method that employs
>   two bits to allow endpoints to signal packet loss in a way that can
>   be used by network devices to measure and locate the source of the
>   loss.  The signaling method applies to all protocols with a =
protocol-
>   specific way to identify packet loss.  The method is especially
>   valuable when applied to protocols that encrypt transport header and
>   do not allow an alternative method for loss detection.

--
Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/


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From: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
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Subject: DRAFT agenda for IETF 105, Montreal
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Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 16:34:36 +1000
Cc: Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>
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... is at:
  https://github.com/quicwg/wg-materials/blob/master/ietf105/agenda.md

As keen observers will note, we're spending almost all of our time =
discussing outstanding issues.  If there is an open design issue =
assigned to you, please try to make a proposal -- preferably a PR -- as =
soon as possible, or request that the issue be reassigned.

Cheers,


--
Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/


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Subject: Re: Handshake timeout failures?
To: IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>
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I have commented on this a few times and I think the response was always a
bit wishy washy with the endpoint decides how long it cares to wait, and it
depends.


On 8 July 2019 at 23.35.45, Martin Duke (martin.h.duke@gmail.com) wrote:

Is there somewhere in the drafts where we provide suggestions about how to
time out connections when not yet established? I believe the Idle Timeout
section applies specifically to established connections.

This need not be intensely prescriptive, but it would be nice to have some
guidelines on how not to fail too quickly.

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<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">I have commented on =
this a few times and I think the response was always a bit wishy washy with=
 the endpoint decides how long it cares to wait, and it depends.</div><div =
id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px=
;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div> <br><p class=
=3D"airmail_on">On 8 July 2019 at 23.35.45, Martin Duke (<a href=3D"mailto:=
martin.h.duke@gmail.com">martin.h.duke@gmail.com</a>) wrote:</p> <blockquot=
e type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq"><span><div><div></div><div>


<title></title>


<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>Is there somewhere in the drafts where we provide suggestions
about how to time out connections when not yet established? I
believe the Idle Timeout section applies specifically to
established connections.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>This need not be intensely prescriptive, but it would be nice
to have some guidelines on how not to fail too quickly.</div>
</div>


</div></div></span></blockquote></body></html>

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Subject: Re: Packet Loss Signaling for Encrypted Protocols - draft-ferrieuxhamchaoui-tsvwg-lossbits
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On 2019-7-9, at 7:48, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:
> Thanks for that. Our agenda is indeed tight, so I'd recommend =
discussing on the list and having side conversations in Montreal.

Igor, are you going to present the draft elsewhere (e.g., TSVWG?) If so, =
please send a notice to the QUIC WG so interested folks can add it to =
their agenda.

Thanks,
Lars

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Subject: Re: Packet Loss Signaling for Encrypted Protocols - draft-ferrieuxhamchaoui-tsvwg-lossbits
To: Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>
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The Q Period needs to be chosen carefully, since the observation could
become too unreliable in case of packet reordering and loss if Q Period is
too small. However, when Q Period is too large, short connections may not
yield a useful upstream loss measurement.

Wrt. short connections, do you mean low-latency, small RTT, or short-lived?

While this looks interesting, can you explain how the objectives compete or
differ from the spin bit, and quality and information provided?

Mikkel



On 9 July 2019 at 06.45.42, Lubashev, Igor (ilubashe@akamai.com) wrote:

Alexandre, Isabelle, and I have posted a draft on a method for endpoints to
signal packet loss to the path, while maintaining end user privacy and
resisting ossification. The method is protocol-independent, but of course
you get the most benefit by applying the method to encrypted transports,
and QUIC is what people usually think of first in such context.

The draft is not targeted at the QUIC WG specifically, since it is
describing a general method of such loss reporting. But we do mention QUIC,
so the WG may find it interesting. We would welcome feedback from the QUIC
WG.

Lars, Mark, I am sure the meeting agenda for Montreal is pretty tight, but
if the WG is interested, we are happy to have a quick QUIC-specific
presentation on this.

Thank you!

- Igor

P.S. We've implemented this proposal in some Akamai servers and have been
using it to serve actual end-user QUIC traffic for a subset of Orange
customers. Orange implemented a passive observer that used this signal to
detect and identify loss. We can share the high-level of the results and
will share the detailed analysis of the data and measurement techniques in
maprg.

---------------------

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ferrieuxhamchaoui-tsvwg-lossbits/

Abstract:
This document describes a protocol-independent method that employs
two bits to allow endpoints to signal packet loss in a way that can
be used by network devices to measure and locate the source of the
loss. The signaling method applies to all protocols with a protocol-
specific way to identify packet loss. The method is especially
valuable when applied to protocols that encrypt transport header and
do not allow an alternative method for loss detection.

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.send { color:#77bb77; }
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.error { color:#AA0000; }</style></head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word=
;line-break:after-white-space"><div class=3D"bloop_markdown"><blockquote>
<p>The Q Period needs to be chosen carefully, since the observation
 could become too unreliable in case of packet reordering and loss if
 Q Period is too small. However, when Q Period is too large, short
 connections may not yield a useful upstream loss measurement.</p>
</blockquote>

<p>Wrt. short connections, do you mean low-latency, small RTT, or short-liv=
ed?</p>

<p>While this looks interesting, can you explain how the objectives compete=
 or differ from the spin bit, and quality and information provided?</p>

<p>Mikkel</p>

<p></p></div><div class=3D"bloop_original_html"><style>body{font-family:Hel=
vetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"f=
ont-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;=
line-height:auto"><br></div> <br><p class=3D"airmail_on">On 9 July 2019 at =
06.45.42, Lubashev, Igor (<a href=3D"mailto:ilubashe@akamai.com">ilubashe@a=
kamai.com</a>) wrote:</p> <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq"><spa=
n><div><div></div><div>Alexandre, Isabelle, and I have posted a draft on a =
method for endpoints to signal packet loss to the path, while maintaining e=
nd user privacy and resisting ossification.  The method is protocol-indepen=
dent, but of course you get the most benefit by applying the method to encr=
ypted transports, and QUIC is what people usually think of first in such co=
ntext.
<br>
<br>The draft is not targeted at the QUIC WG specifically, since it is desc=
ribing a general method of such loss reporting.  But we do mention QUIC, so=
 the WG may find it interesting.  We would welcome feedback from the QUIC W=
G.
<br>
<br>Lars, Mark, I am sure the meeting agenda for Montreal is pretty tight, =
but if the WG is interested, we are happy to have a quick QUIC-specific pre=
sentation on this.
<br>
<br>Thank you!
<br>
<br>- Igor
<br>
<br>P.S.  We&#39;ve implemented this proposal in some Akamai servers and ha=
ve been using it to serve actual end-user QUIC traffic for a subset of Oran=
ge customers.  Orange implemented a passive observer that used this signal =
to detect and identify loss.  We can share the high-level of the results an=
d will share the detailed analysis of the data and measurement techniques i=
n maprg.
<br>
<br>---------------------
<br>
<br><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ferrieuxhamchaoui-tsv=
wg-lossbits/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ferrieuxhamchaoui-tsvw=
g-lossbits/</a>
<br>
<br>Abstract:
<br>   This document describes a protocol-independent method that employs
<br>   two bits to allow endpoints to signal packet loss in a way that can
<br>   be used by network devices to measure and locate the source of the
<br>   loss.  The signaling method applies to all protocols with a protocol=
-
<br>   specific way to identify packet loss.  The method is especially
<br>   valuable when applied to protocols that encrypt transport header and
<br>   do not allow an alternative method for loss detection.
<br>
<br></div></div></span></blockquote></div><div class=3D"bloop_markdown"><p>=
</p></div></body></html>

--0000000000009008ad058d3c0a15--


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From: Lucas Pardue <lucaspardue.24.7@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 11:19:02 +0100
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Hi Erik,

Thanks for sharing your work. Did you compare your approach to DNS
prefetching (whether instigated by user agent heuristics or
"dns-prefetch" link relation)?

Lucas

On Mon, Jul 8, 2019 at 1:23 PM Erik Sy <sy@informatik.uni-hamburg.de> wrote=
:
>
> Hi Mirja,
>
> another use case for proxying QUIC is to speed up QUIC's connection
> establishment on high-latency access networks.
>
> An article with more details can be found
> here: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1907.01291.pdf
>
> Best regards,
> Erik
>
> On 7/8/19 14:01, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > we posted an update of draft-kuehlewind-quic-substrate which some small=
er edits, some more text on requirements for discovery, and a new sub use c=
ase (thanks Lucas!).
> >
> > Feedback would be very welcome! Also on github here:
> >
> > https://github.com/mirjak/draft-kuehlewind-quic-substrate
> >
> > Mirja
> >
> >
> >
> > =EF=BB=BFOn 05.07.19, 17:38, "internet-drafts@ietf.org" <internet-draft=
s@ietf.org> wrote:
> >
> >
> >     A new version of I-D, draft-kuehlewind-quic-substrate-01.txt
> >     has been successfully submitted by Mirja Kuehlewind and posted to t=
he
> >     IETF repository.
> >
> >     Name:             draft-kuehlewind-quic-substrate
> >     Revision: 01
> >     Title:            Use Cases and Requirements for QUIC as a Substrat=
e
> >     Document date:    2019-07-05
> >     Group:            Individual Submission
> >     Pages:            9
> >     URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-kuehlewi=
nd-quic-substrate-01.txt
> >     Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kuehlewind-q=
uic-substrate/
> >     Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kuehlewind-quic-s=
ubstrate-01
> >     Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-kuehlew=
ind-quic-substrate
> >     Diff:           https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-kuehlewin=
d-quic-substrate-01
> >
> >     Abstract:
> >        TCP is often used as a proxying or tunneling protocol.  QUIC is =
a
> >        new, emerging transport protocol and there is a similar expectat=
ion
> >        that it too will be used as a substrate once it is widely deploy=
ed.
> >        Using QUIC instead of TCP in existing scenarios will allow proxy=
ing
> >        and tunneling services to maintain the benefits of QUIC natively=
,
> >        without degrading the performance and security characteristics. =
 QUIC
> >        also opens up new opportunities for these services to have lower
> >        latency and better multistreaming support.  This document summar=
izes
> >        current and future usage scenarios to derive requirements for QU=
IC
> >        and to provide additional protocol considerations.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >     Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of s=
ubmission
> >     until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org=
.
> >
> >     The IETF Secretariat
> >
> >
> >
>


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Subject: Re: FW: New Version Notification for draft-kuehlewind-quic-substrate-01.txt
To: Lucas Pardue <lucaspardue.24.7@gmail.com>
Cc: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
References: <156234111227.21943.6370804489378532746.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <601B5A7E-09ED-4BF3-80C4-5A475B84FE59@ericsson.com> <de3de3cb-d18b-fe5c-a24a-1fce1b79b0d6@informatik.uni-hamburg.de> <CALGR9oZ9Gm=aDtXNZhdPD1kWW-Vd8ASEOFmarfrCYsgcqFQvwA@mail.gmail.com>
From: Erik Sy <sy@informatik.uni-hamburg.de>
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Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 14:15:03 +0200
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Hi Lucas,

thanks for this interesting question!
Here you can find a plot with the respective behaviour similar to Figure
7 of the article: https://erik-sy.de/QuicSocks_plot.pdf
It assumes perfect DNS prefetching, thus the DNS lookup is completed
before the client starts the establishment of the QUIC connection.
Are you aware of a real-world performance evaluation of DNS prefetching?

Best regards,
Erik

On 7/9/19 12:19, Lucas Pardue wrote:
> Hi Erik,
>
> Thanks for sharing your work. Did you compare your approach to DNS
> prefetching (whether instigated by user agent heuristics or
> "dns-prefetch" link relation)?
>
> Lucas
>
> On Mon, Jul 8, 2019 at 1:23 PM Erik Sy <sy@informatik.uni-hamburg.de> wrote:
>> Hi Mirja,
>>
>> another use case for proxying QUIC is to speed up QUIC's connection
>> establishment on high-latency access networks.
>>
>> An article with more details can be found
>> here: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1907.01291.pdf
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Erik
>>
>> On 7/8/19 14:01, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> we posted an update of draft-kuehlewind-quic-substrate which some smaller edits, some more text on requirements for discovery, and a new sub use case (thanks Lucas!).
>>>
>>> Feedback would be very welcome! Also on github here:
>>>
>>> https://github.com/mirjak/draft-kuehlewind-quic-substrate
>>>
>>> Mirja
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ﻿On 05.07.19, 17:38, "internet-drafts@ietf.org" <internet-drafts@ietf.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>     A new version of I-D, draft-kuehlewind-quic-substrate-01.txt
>>>     has been successfully submitted by Mirja Kuehlewind and posted to the
>>>     IETF repository.
>>>
>>>     Name:             draft-kuehlewind-quic-substrate
>>>     Revision: 01
>>>     Title:            Use Cases and Requirements for QUIC as a Substrate
>>>     Document date:    2019-07-05
>>>     Group:            Individual Submission
>>>     Pages:            9
>>>     URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-kuehlewind-quic-substrate-01.txt
>>>     Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kuehlewind-quic-substrate/
>>>     Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kuehlewind-quic-substrate-01
>>>     Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-kuehlewind-quic-substrate
>>>     Diff:           https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-kuehlewind-quic-substrate-01
>>>
>>>     Abstract:
>>>        TCP is often used as a proxying or tunneling protocol.  QUIC is a
>>>        new, emerging transport protocol and there is a similar expectation
>>>        that it too will be used as a substrate once it is widely deployed.
>>>        Using QUIC instead of TCP in existing scenarios will allow proxying
>>>        and tunneling services to maintain the benefits of QUIC natively,
>>>        without degrading the performance and security characteristics.  QUIC
>>>        also opens up new opportunities for these services to have lower
>>>        latency and better multistreaming support.  This document summarizes
>>>        current and future usage scenarios to derive requirements for QUIC
>>>        and to provide additional protocol considerations.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>     Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
>>>     until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>>>
>>>     The IETF Secretariat
>>>
>>>
>>>


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From: "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>
To: Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
CC: "isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com" <isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, "alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com" <alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com>
Subject: RE: Packet Loss Signaling for Encrypted Protocols - draft-ferrieuxhamchaoui-tsvwg-lossbits
Thread-Topic: Packet Loss Signaling for Encrypted Protocols - draft-ferrieuxhamchaoui-tsvwg-lossbits
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Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 14:56:49 +0000
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Thanks, Lars.  Will do.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2019 3:36 AM
> To: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
> Cc: Lubashev, Igor <ilubashe@akamai.com>; isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com;
> quic@ietf.org; alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com
> Subject: Re: Packet Loss Signaling for Encrypted Protocols - draft-
> ferrieuxhamchaoui-tsvwg-lossbits
>=20
> On 2019-7-9, at 7:48, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:
> > Thanks for that. Our agenda is indeed tight, so I'd recommend discussin=
g on the
> list and having side conversations in Montreal.
>=20
> Igor, are you going to present the draft elsewhere (e.g., TSVWG?) If so, =
please
> send a notice to the QUIC WG so interested folks can add it to their agen=
da.
>=20
> Thanks,
> Lars


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From: "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>
To: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>
CC: Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>, "isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com" <isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com>, "alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com" <alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com>
Subject: RE: Packet Loss Signaling for Encrypted Protocols - draft-ferrieuxhamchaoui-tsvwg-lossbits
Thread-Topic: Packet Loss Signaling for Encrypted Protocols - draft-ferrieuxhamchaoui-tsvwg-lossbits
Thread-Index: AdU2CmyJiha8kWgiTzSY5F1e75TnXwAMRh8AAArB47A=
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 15:07:22 +0000
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References: <f405ea70fc994867b3585b267106bc84@ustx2ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com> <EE34622F-54F5-4C23-9457-5645E368070F@mnot.net>
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Understood (and not unexpected).

For those who are interested, we'll talk about the draft in tsvwg (focus on=
 signaling behavior, privacy preservation, ossification resistance, maybe s=
pecifics of where the signals can be carried) and maprg (focus on the data =
collected, accuracy of measurement, capabilities at detecting/measuring var=
ious causes of loss, and techniques to improve noise filtering due to reord=
ering).  Both of the WG meetings are later in the week (tsvwg is on Thu, ma=
prg on Fri).

Alexandre and I will be in Montreal, and we are happy to have side meetings=
 with interested people.

Many thanks,

- Igor


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2019 12:49 AM
> To: Lubashev, Igor <ilubashe@akamai.com>
> Cc: Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>; quic@ietf.org;
> isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com; alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com
> Subject: Re: Packet Loss Signaling for Encrypted Protocols - draft-
> ferrieuxhamchaoui-tsvwg-lossbits
>=20
> Hi Igor,
>=20
> Thanks for that. Our agenda is indeed tight, so I'd recommend discussing =
on the
> list and having side conversations in Montreal.
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
>=20
> > On 9 Jul 2019, at 2:44 pm, Lubashev, Igor <ilubashe@akamai.com> wrote:
> >
> > Alexandre, Isabelle, and I have posted a draft on a method for endpoint=
s to
> signal packet loss to the path, while maintaining end user privacy and re=
sisting
> ossification.  The method is protocol-independent, but of course you get =
the
> most benefit by applying the method to encrypted transports, and QUIC is =
what
> people usually think of first in such context.
> >
> > The draft is not targeted at the QUIC WG specifically, since it is desc=
ribing a
> general method of such loss reporting.  But we do mention QUIC, so the WG=
 may
> find it interesting.  We would welcome feedback from the QUIC WG.
> >
> > Lars, Mark, I am sure the meeting agenda for Montreal is pretty tight, =
but if the
> WG is interested, we are happy to have a quick QUIC-specific presentation=
 on
> this.
> >
> > Thank you!
> >
> > - Igor
> >
> > P.S.  We've implemented this proposal in some Akamai servers and have b=
een
> using it to serve actual end-user QUIC traffic for a subset of Orange cus=
tomers.
> Orange implemented a passive observer that used this signal to detect and
> identify loss.  We can share the high-level of the results and will share=
 the
> detailed analysis of the data and measurement techniques in maprg.
> >
> > ---------------------
> >
> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ferrieuxhamchaoui-tsvwg-lossbits=
/
> >
> > Abstract:
> >   This document describes a protocol-independent method that employs
> >   two bits to allow endpoints to signal packet loss in a way that can
> >   be used by network devices to measure and locate the source of the
> >   loss.  The signaling method applies to all protocols with a protocol-
> >   specific way to identify packet loss.  The method is especially
> >   valuable when applied to protocols that encrypt transport header and
> >   do not allow an alternative method for loss detection.
>=20
> --
> Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/


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From: "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>
To: =?utf-8?B?TWlra2VsIEZhaG7DuGUgSsO4cmdlbnNlbg==?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>, Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>
CC: "alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com" <alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com>, "isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com" <isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com>
Subject: RE: Packet Loss Signaling for Encrypted Protocols - draft-ferrieuxhamchaoui-tsvwg-lossbits
Thread-Topic: Packet Loss Signaling for Encrypted Protocols - draft-ferrieuxhamchaoui-tsvwg-lossbits
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From nobody Tue Jul  9 08:39:42 2019
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the QUIC WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Using TLS to Secure QUIC
        Authors         : Martin Thomson
                          Sean Turner
	Filename        : draft-ietf-quic-tls-22.txt
	Pages           : 44
	Date            : 2019-07-09

Abstract:
   This document describes how Transport Layer Security (TLS) is used to
   secure QUIC.

Note to Readers

   Discussion of this draft takes place on the QUIC working group
   mailing list (quic@ietf.org), which is archived at
   https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?email_list=quic [1].

   Working Group information can be found at https://github.com/quicwg
   [2]; source code and issues list for this draft can be found at
   https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/labels/-tls [3].


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-quic-tls/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-quic-tls-22
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From nobody Tue Jul  9 08:43:28 2019
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the QUIC WG of the IETF.

        Title           : QUIC: A UDP-Based Multiplexed and Secure Transport
        Authors         : Jana Iyengar
                          Martin Thomson
	Filename        : draft-ietf-quic-transport-22.txt
	Pages           : 148
	Date            : 2019-07-09

Abstract:
   This document defines the core of the QUIC transport protocol.
   Accompanying documents describe QUIC's loss detection and congestion
   control and the use of TLS for key negotiation.

Note to Readers

   Discussion of this draft takes place on the QUIC working group
   mailing list (quic@ietf.org), which is archived at
   <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?email_list=quic>.

   Working Group information can be found at <https://github.com/
   quicwg>; source code and issues list for this draft can be found at
   <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/labels/-transport>.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-quic-transport/

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https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-quic-transport-22
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From nobody Tue Jul  9 08:46:13 2019
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the QUIC WG of the IETF.

        Title           : QUIC Loss Detection and Congestion Control
        Authors         : Jana Iyengar
                          Ian Swett
	Filename        : draft-ietf-quic-recovery-22.txt
	Pages           : 42
	Date            : 2019-07-09

Abstract:
   This document describes loss detection and congestion control
   mechanisms for QUIC.

Note to Readers

   Discussion of this draft takes place on the QUIC working group
   mailing list (quic@ietf.org), which is archived at
   https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?email_list=quic [1].

   Working Group information can be found at https://github.com/quicwg
   [2]; source code and issues list for this draft can be found at
   https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/labels/-recovery [3].


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https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-quic-recovery/

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https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-quic-recovery-22
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On 09.07.2019 02:05, Martin Thomson wrote:
> For some reason, PR 2749, one of the main reasons we are publishing draf=
t-21, didn't get merged.  Don't ask me how that happened.  Worse, the draf=
t submission deadline just passed, so fixing this might get complicated.  =
Stay tuned.

FWIW, <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-quic-http/> doesn't
show version 21...

Best regards, Julian


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Subject: max_ack_delay for handshake
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New to section 4.4 of quic-recovery;

*For Initial and Handshake packets, a
   max_ack_delay of 0 is used.*


I see two possible meanings of this:
1) endpoints MUST not intentionally delay acks of Initial and Handshake
packets;
2) In RTT calculation, endpoints should assume a peer max_ack_delay of zero.

(2) is a little hairy because there is one RTT estimate, not a per-context
one. But what is the intent here?

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>New to section 4.4 of quic-recovery;</div><div><br></=
div><div>

<pre style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:nor=
mal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-ali=
gn:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;word-spacing:0px;text-decorati=
on-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial"><strong><font color=3D"gree=
n">For Initial and Handshake packets, a
   max_ack_delay of 0 is used.</font></strong></pre>

</div><div><br></div><div>I see two possible meanings of this:</div><div>1)=
 endpoints MUST not intentionally delay acks of Initial and Handshake packe=
ts;</div><div>2) In RTT calculation, endpoints should assume a peer max_ack=
_delay of zero.</div><div><br></div><div>(2) is a little hairy because ther=
e is one RTT estimate, not a per-context one. But what is the intent here?<=
br></div></div>

--000000000000da3004058d427a8b--


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From: Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: max_ack_delay for handshake
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Ah, I see now that Section 5.3 makes it clear that we must use a value of
zero. Never mind!

On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 9:59 AM Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com> wrote:

> New to section 4.4 of quic-recovery;
>
> *For Initial and Handshake packets, a
>    max_ack_delay of 0 is used.*
>
>
> I see two possible meanings of this:
> 1) endpoints MUST not intentionally delay acks of Initial and Handshake
> packets;
> 2) In RTT calculation, endpoints should assume a peer max_ack_delay of
> zero.
>
> (2) is a little hairy because there is one RTT estimate, not a per-context
> one. But what is the intent here?
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Ah, I see now that Section 5.3 makes it clear that we must=
 use a value of zero. Never mind!<br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><=
div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 9:59 AM Martin =
Duke &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.h.duke@gmail.com">martin.h.duke@gmail.com=
</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">=
<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>New to section 4.4 of quic-recovery;</div><div><br></=
div><div>

<pre style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:nor=
mal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-ali=
gn:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;word-spacing:0px;text-decorati=
on-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial"><strong><font color=3D"gree=
n">For Initial and Handshake packets, a
   max_ack_delay of 0 is used.</font></strong></pre>

</div><div><br></div><div>I see two possible meanings of this:</div><div>1)=
 endpoints MUST not intentionally delay acks of Initial and Handshake packe=
ts;</div><div>2) In RTT calculation, endpoints should assume a peer max_ack=
_delay of zero.</div><div><br></div><div>(2) is a little hairy because ther=
e is one RTT estimate, not a per-context one. But what is the intent here?<=
br></div></div>
</blockquote></div>

--0000000000007c11da058d427f90--


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From: "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>
To: Kuhn Nicolas <Nicolas.Kuhn@cnes.fr>, "tsvwg@ietf.org" <tsvwg@ietf.org>, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, "'tls@ietf.org'" <tls@ietf.org>
CC: "'gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk'" <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>, "'emile.stephan@orange.com'" <emile.stephan@orange.com>
Subject: RE: Updates on the "Transport parameters for 0-RTT connections" draft
Thread-Topic: Updates on the "Transport parameters for 0-RTT connections" draft
Thread-Index: AdUP24Zg+1VIa8FMRoKfDVG/fwUlTgmnZqQg
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 17:42:32 +0000
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Nico, thanks for caring about clients behind high-latency links.

> The NewSessionTicket carries an additional field named 'early_data'
> that indicates to the client the maximum size of application data to
> insert in the 0-RTT message.

I see that draft-ietf-quic-tls requires use of initial_max_data instead and=
 required "early_data" to carry no information.  See section 4.5 "Enabling =
0-RTT".  Is there an advantage to use one vs the other?=20


> BDP_metadata

All these parameters the client can calculate itself. You mention that the =
clients may actually reject BDP_metadata, if its contents seem suspect to i=
t. So is this structure useful because some clients will be able to make us=
e of these fields on a subsequent 0-RTT connection but would not care to im=
plement the needed measurements themselves? Or is there some other reason?

Best wishes,

- Igor

-----------------------

From: Kuhn Nicolas <Nicolas.Kuhn@cnes.fr>=20
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2019 9:47 AM
Subject: Updates on the "Transport parameters for 0-RTT connections" draft

Dear all,=20

Following the different feedbacks on this draft, we have proposed an update=
d version on the "Transport parameters for 0-RTT connections".=20
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kuhn-quic-0rtt-bdp/

The draft proposes a solution where path characteristics are shared between=
 the peers to improve the ingress traffic for 0-RTT connections.

The difference with version 01 are mainly based on the received feedback.
In short, we now a BDP_metadata structure so that various path parameters c=
an be exposed to the client (MTU, RTT, bandwidth, loss-rate).
We have also added a section to discuss what happens when BDP is used incor=
rectly.

Let us know if we have any views or interest in this proposal.=20

Cheers,

Nico for the authors


From nobody Tue Jul  9 14:14:04 2019
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From: <emile.stephan@orange.com>
To: "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>, Kuhn Nicolas <Nicolas.Kuhn@cnes.fr>, "tsvwg@ietf.org" <tsvwg@ietf.org>, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, "'tls@ietf.org'" <tls@ietf.org>
CC: "'gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk'" <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>
Subject: QUIC vs TLS1.3 initial_max_data (was RE: Updates on the "Transport parameters for 0-RTT connections" draft)
Thread-Topic: QUIC vs TLS1.3 initial_max_data (was RE: Updates on the "Transport parameters for 0-RTT connections" draft)
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Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 21:13:57 +0000
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Hi Igor,

You are right, QUIC TLS spec maps TLS1.3  'early_data' field in the "initia=
l_max_data" transport parameter.
I don't know the motivation. It sounds good to move transport parameters ou=
t of the TLS NewSessionTicket.

Regards
Emile

-----Message d'origine-----
De=A0: Lubashev, Igor [mailto:ilubashe@akamai.com]=20
Envoy=E9=A0: mardi 9 juillet 2019 19:43
=C0=A0: Kuhn Nicolas; tsvwg@ietf.org; IETF QUIC WG; 'tls@ietf.org'
Cc=A0: 'gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk'; STEPHAN Emile TGI/OLN
Objet=A0: RE: Updates on the "Transport parameters for 0-RTT connections" d=
raft

Nico, thanks for caring about clients behind high-latency links.

> The NewSessionTicket carries an additional field named 'early_data'
> that indicates to the client the maximum size of application data to
> insert in the 0-RTT message.

I see that draft-ietf-quic-tls requires use of initial_max_data instead and=
 required "early_data" to carry no information.  See section 4.5 "Enabling =
0-RTT".  Is there an advantage to use one vs the other?=20


> BDP_metadata

All these parameters the client can calculate itself. You mention that the =
clients may actually reject BDP_metadata, if its contents seem suspect to i=
t. So is this structure useful because some clients will be able to make us=
e of these fields on a subsequent 0-RTT connection but would not care to im=
plement the needed measurements themselves? Or is there some other reason?

Best wishes,

- Igor

-----------------------

From: Kuhn Nicolas <Nicolas.Kuhn@cnes.fr>=20
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2019 9:47 AM
Subject: Updates on the "Transport parameters for 0-RTT connections" draft

Dear all,=20

Following the different feedbacks on this draft, we have proposed an update=
d version on the "Transport parameters for 0-RTT connections".=20
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kuhn-quic-0rtt-bdp/

The draft proposes a solution where path characteristics are shared between=
 the peers to improve the ingress traffic for 0-RTT connections.

The difference with version 01 are mainly based on the received feedback.
In short, we now a BDP_metadata structure so that various path parameters c=
an be exposed to the client (MTU, RTT, bandwidth, loss-rate).
We have also added a section to discuss what happens when BDP is used incor=
rectly.

Let us know if we have any views or interest in this proposal.=20

Cheers,

Nico for the authors


___________________________________________________________________________=
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From: Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 14:31:59 -0700
Message-ID: <CAM4esxRjdw9Q+jZt0SycMAy3YFAMPO3g3L2uFRyriv0bQMO-KQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Handshake timeout failures?
To: Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com>
Cc: Ian Swett <ianswett=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>,  Nick Banks <nibanks=40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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--00000000000021242c058d464bed
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

OK, I'll file an issue

On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 2:27 PM Praveen Balasubramanian <pravb@microsoft.com=
>
wrote:

> Agreed. One consideration in picking a min bound is VM live migration
> where its desirable to have at least one retry post the blackout period. =
I
> wonder if we should add text specifying a minimum value for both handshak=
e
> timeout and idle timeout.
>
>
>
> *From:* QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of * Ian Swett
> *Sent:* Monday, July 8, 2019 7:23 PM
> *To:* Nick Banks <nibanks=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
> *Cc:* IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>; Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>
> *Subject:* Re: Handshake timeout failures?
>
>
>
> I think some text on both a handshake timeout(that's presumably shorter
> than a standard idle timeout) and a dead path timeout would be helpful,
> even if it's not normative.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 8, 2019 at 5:56 PM Nick Banks <nibanks=3D
> 40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>
> The WG talked about dead path timeouts for a little bit (in Tokyo I think=
)
> but, at the time, decided to leave it to implementations. I personally
> think having a dead path timeout description in the text would be a good
> idea. I=E2=80=99d be happy to revisit the discussion.
>
>
>
> - Nick
>
>
>
> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=3D550986> for
> Windows 10
>
> [HxS - 18936 - 16.0.11901.20042]
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Martin Duke <
> martin.h.duke@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, July 8, 2019 4:34:00 PM
> *To:* IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Handshake timeout failures?
>
>
>
> Is there somewhere in the drafts where we provide suggestions about how t=
o
> time out connections when not yet established? I believe the Idle Timeout
> section applies specifically to established connections.
>
>
>
> This need not be intensely prescriptive, but it would be nice to have som=
e
> guidelines on how not to fail too quickly.
>
>

--00000000000021242c058d464bed
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">OK, I&#39;ll file an issue<br></div><br><div class=3D"gmai=
l_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 2:27 =
PM Praveen Balasubramanian &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:pravb@microsoft.com">pravb=
@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
yle=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padd=
ing-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_-5165925287439389481WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Agreed. One consideration in picking a min bound is =
VM live migration where its desirable to have at least one retry post the b=
lackout period. I wonder if we should add text specifying a minimum value f=
or both handshake timeout and idle
 timeout. <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> QUIC &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bounces=
@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; <b>On Behalf Of =
</b>
Ian Swett<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, July 8, 2019 7:23 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Nick Banks &lt;nibanks=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40microsoft.com@dmarc=
.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> IETF QUIC WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">quic@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Martin Duke &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:martin.h.duke@=
gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">martin.h.duke@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Handshake timeout failures?<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think some text on both a handshake timeout(that&#=
39;s presumably shorter than a standard idle timeout) and a dead path timeo=
ut would be helpful, even if it&#39;s not normative.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Mon, Jul 8, 2019 at 5:56 PM Nick Banks &lt;nibank=
s=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">40m=
icrosoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-color:currentcolor currentcolor currentcolor rg=
b(204,204,204);border-style:none none none solid;border-width:medium medium=
 medium 1pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin:5pt 0in 5pt 4.8pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The WG talked about dead path timeouts for a little =
bit (in Tokyo I think) but, at the time, decided to leave it to implementat=
ions. I personally think having a dead path timeout
 description in the text would be a good idea. I=E2=80=99d be happy to revi=
sit the discussion.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- Nick<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Sent from
<a href=3D"https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=3D550986" target=3D"_bla=
nk">Mail</a> for Windows 10<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[HxS - 18936 - 16.0.11901.20042]<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-align:center" align=3D"center">
<hr width=3D"98%" size=3D"2" align=3D"center">
</div>
<div id=3D"gmail-m_-5165925287439389481gmail-m_-1205124174887045564divRplyF=
wdMsg">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"color:black">From:</span></b><span=
 style=3D"color:black"> QUIC &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:quic-bounces@ietf=
.org" target=3D"_blank">quic-bounces@ietf.org</a><span style=3D"color:black=
">&gt; on behalf of Martin Duke &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:martin.h.duke@=
gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">martin.h.duke@gmail.com</a><span style=3D"colo=
r:black">&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, July 8, 2019 4:34:00 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> IETF QUIC WG &lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">quic@ietf.org</a><span style=3D"color:black">&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Handshake timeout failures?</span> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Is there somewhere in the drafts where we provide su=
ggestions about how to time out connections when not yet established? I bel=
ieve the Idle Timeout section applies specifically to established connectio=
ns.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This need not be intensely prescriptive, but it woul=
d be nice to have some guidelines on how not to fail too quickly.<u></u><u>=
</u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div>

--00000000000021242c058d464bed--


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Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 21:00:06 -0400
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Subject: HTTP(3) priorities
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There has been quite a bit of discussion of HTTP priorities lately on both
the QUIC and HTTP mailing lists, with more to follow.  The plan for IETF in
Montreal is as follows:

   - Monday: Overview of priorities for 15 minutes in HTTP, with 15 minutes
   discussion.
   - Wednesday: A side meeting will be held from 8:30-9:45am in Van Horne.
   - Thursday: I'll summarise the side meeting in Wednesday's HTTP session.

Thanks, Ian

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>There has been quite a bit of discussion of HTTP prio=
rities lately on both the QUIC and HTTP mailing lists, with more to follow.=
=C2=A0 The plan for IETF in Montreal is as=C2=A0follows:</div><ul><li>Monda=
y: Overview of priorities for 15 minutes in HTTP, with 15 minutes discussio=
n.</li><li>Wednesday: A side meeting will be held from 8:30-9:45am in Van H=
orne.</li><li>Thursday: I&#39;ll summarise the side meeting in Wednesday&#3=
9;s HTTP session.</li></ul><div>Thanks, Ian</div></div>

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From: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2019 21:22:23 -0400
Message-ID: <CAKcm_gMnPXU-0=k98av_w7G31ohkza6LbWEHCW5_VE3Dfrkqcw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Updated DATAGRAM -03 draft
To: Tommy Pauly <tpauly=40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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Thanks Tommy.  As I've expressed before, I'm not a big fan of the ID
field(now flow identifiers) unless they have clear transport level
functionality.

Adding signaling for opening and closing these flows seems like a stronger
reason to add these IDs to the transport layer.  Have you considered
splitting this draft into two or the frame type into two and making the
version with a flow identifier more full-featured?

On Mon, Jul 8, 2019 at 11:20 AM Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D
40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> We=E2=80=99ve updated the QUIC DATAGRAM draft to incorporate some of the =
feedback
> we received at the side meeting in Prague. Notably, it clarifies:
>
> - Guidance around datagram acknowledgements
> - Datagrams do not participate in any flow control
> - Datagrams do participate in congestion control
>
> The remaining area of open discussion is around the newly re-named
> optional =E2=80=9Cflow identifiers=E2=80=9D. The primary argument for rem=
oving these is
> that applications can add identifiers onto datagrams themselves, and the
> transport should not transmit a field that it does not do anything with. =
We
> did add some text clarifying that these identifiers are essentially like
> UDP ports for demultiplexing, and pointed out some *minimal* things the
> transport can do to help batch transmission of datagrams in the same flow
> and promote fate-sharing within a flow. There=E2=80=99s been some discuss=
ion on
> Slack of other approaches that would make these flow IDs more first-class
> citizens=E2=80=94adding reliable signaling for opening and closing flows,=
 as many
> applications would also generally need some similar sort of control
> channel=E2=80=94but these seem a bit heavy-weight. Either way, this is an=
 area
> where discussion is welcome and I expect the document to change.
>
> Best,
> Tommy
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> *From: *internet-drafts@ietf.org
> *Subject: **New Version Notification for draft-pauly-quic-datagram-03.txt=
*
> *Date: *July 6, 2019 at 6:30:01 PM PDT
> *To: *Eric Kinnear <ekinnear@apple.com>, David Schinazi <
> dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com>, Tommy Pauly <tpauly@apple.com>
>
>
> A new version of I-D, draft-pauly-quic-datagram-03.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Tommy Pauly and posted to the
> IETF repository.
>
> Name: draft-pauly-quic-datagram
> Revision: 03
> Title: An Unreliable Datagram Extension to QUIC
> Document date: 2019-07-06
> Group: Individual Submission
> Pages: 8
> URL:
> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-pauly-quic-datagram-03.txt
> Status:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-pauly-quic-datagram/
> Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pauly-quic-datagram-03
> Htmlized:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-pauly-quic-datagram
> Diff:
> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-pauly-quic-datagram-03
>
> Abstract:
>   This document defines an extension to the QUIC transport protocol to
>   add support for sending and receiving unreliable datagrams over a
>   QUIC connection.
>
>
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
> submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>
> The IETF Secretariat
>
>
>

--00000000000022298e058d4983ec
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Thanks Tommy.=C2=A0 As I&#39;ve expressed before, I&#39;m =
not a big fan of the ID field(now flow identifiers) unless they have clear =
transport level functionality.<div><br></div><div>Adding signaling for open=
ing and closing these flows seems like a stronger reason to add these IDs t=
o the transport layer.=C2=A0 Have you considered splitting this draft into =
two or the frame type into two and making the version with a flow identifie=
r more full-featured?</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D=
"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Jul 8, 2019 at 11:20 AM Tommy Pauly &lt;=
tpauly=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">40=
apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204=
,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>Hello all,<div><br></div><div>We=E2=80=99ve up=
dated the QUIC DATAGRAM draft to incorporate some of the feedback we receiv=
ed at the side meeting in Prague. Notably, it clarifies:</div><div><br></di=
v><div>- Guidance around datagram acknowledgements</div><div>- Datagrams do=
 not participate in any flow control</div><div>- Datagrams do participate i=
n congestion control</div><div><br></div><div>The remaining area of open di=
scussion is around the newly re-named optional =E2=80=9Cflow identifiers=E2=
=80=9D. The primary argument for removing these is that applications can ad=
d identifiers onto datagrams themselves, and the transport should not trans=
mit a field that it does not do anything with. We did add some text clarify=
ing that these identifiers are essentially like UDP ports for demultiplexin=
g, and pointed out some *minimal* things the transport can do to help batch=
 transmission of datagrams in the same flow and promote fate-sharing within=
 a flow. There=E2=80=99s been some discussion on Slack of other approaches =
that would make these flow IDs more first-class citizens=E2=80=94adding rel=
iable signaling for opening and closing flows, as many applications would a=
lso generally need some similar sort of control channel=E2=80=94but these s=
eem a bit heavy-weight. Either way, this is an area where discussion is wel=
come and I expect the document to change.</div><div><br></div><div>Best,</d=
iv><div>Tommy</div><div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>Begin forwa=
rded message:</div><br class=3D"gmail-m_-2161425353029619216gmail-m_-339613=
0755833843507Apple-interchange-newline"><div style=3D"margin:0px"><span sty=
le=3D"font-family:-webkit-system-font,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,=
sans-serif;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b>From: </b></span><span style=3D"font-family=
:-webkit-system-font,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,sans-serif"><a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">internet-drafts@ie=
tf.org</a><br></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0px"><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:-webkit-system-font,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,sans-serif;co=
lor:rgb(0,0,0)"><b>Subject: </b></span><span style=3D"font-family:-webkit-s=
ystem-font,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,sans-serif"><b>New Version =
Notification for draft-pauly-quic-datagram-03.txt</b><br></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin:0px"><span style=3D"font-family:-webkit-system-font,&quot;H=
elvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b>Date: </b></s=
pan><span style=3D"font-family:-webkit-system-font,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quo=
t;,Helvetica,sans-serif">July 6, 2019 at 6:30:01 PM PDT<br></span></div><di=
v style=3D"margin:0px"><span style=3D"font-family:-webkit-system-font,&quot=
;Helvetica Neue&quot;,Helvetica,sans-serif;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><b>To: </b></s=
pan><span style=3D"font-family:-webkit-system-font,&quot;Helvetica Neue&quo=
t;,Helvetica,sans-serif">Eric Kinnear &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekinnear@apple.=
com" target=3D"_blank">ekinnear@apple.com</a>&gt;, David Schinazi &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">dschinazi.ietf@gma=
il.com</a>&gt;, Tommy Pauly &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tpauly@apple.com" target=
=3D"_blank">tpauly@apple.com</a>&gt;<br></span></div><br><div><div><br>A ne=
w version of I-D, draft-pauly-quic-datagram-03.txt<br>has been successfully=
 submitted by Tommy Pauly and posted to the<br>IETF repository.<br><br>Name=
:<span class=3D"gmail-m_-2161425353029619216gmail-m_-3396130755833843507App=
le-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_=
-2161425353029619216gmail-m_-3396130755833843507Apple-tab-span" style=3D"wh=
ite-space:pre-wrap">	</span>draft-pauly-quic-datagram<br>Revision:<span cla=
ss=3D"gmail-m_-2161425353029619216gmail-m_-3396130755833843507Apple-tab-spa=
n" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>03<br>Title:<span class=3D"gmail-=
m_-2161425353029619216gmail-m_-3396130755833843507Apple-tab-span" style=3D"=
white-space:pre-wrap">	</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-2161425353029619216gm=
ail-m_-3396130755833843507Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	<=
/span>An Unreliable Datagram Extension to QUIC<br>Document date:<span class=
=3D"gmail-m_-2161425353029619216gmail-m_-3396130755833843507Apple-tab-span"=
 style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>2019-07-06<br>Group:<span class=3D"=
gmail-m_-2161425353029619216gmail-m_-3396130755833843507Apple-tab-span" sty=
le=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-216142535302961=
9216gmail-m_-3396130755833843507Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wr=
ap">	</span>Individual Submission<br>Pages:<span class=3D"gmail-m_-21614253=
53029619216gmail-m_-3396130755833843507Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space=
:pre-wrap">	</span><span class=3D"gmail-m_-2161425353029619216gmail-m_-3396=
130755833843507Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>8<br>=
URL: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<a h=
ref=3D"https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-pauly-quic-datagram-03.tx=
t" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-pauly-quic-=
datagram-03.txt</a><br>Status: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-pauly-quic-datagram=
/" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-pauly-quic-data=
gram/</a><br>Htmlized: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<a href=3D"https=
://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pauly-quic-datagram-03" target=3D"_blank">http=
s://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pauly-quic-datagram-03</a><br>Htmlized: =C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/do=
c/html/draft-pauly-quic-datagram" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.iet=
f.org/doc/html/draft-pauly-quic-datagram</a><br>Diff: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/rfcd=
iff?url2=3Ddraft-pauly-quic-datagram-03" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf=
.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-pauly-quic-datagram-03</a><br><br>Abstract:<br> =
=C2=A0=C2=A0This document defines an extension to the QUIC transport protoc=
ol to<br> =C2=A0=C2=A0add support for sending and receiving unreliable data=
grams over a<br> =C2=A0=C2=A0QUIC connection.<br><br><br><br><br>Please not=
e that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission<br>until=
 the htmlized version and diff are available at <a href=3D"http://tools.iet=
f.org" target=3D"_blank">tools.ietf.org</a>.<br><br>The IETF Secretariat<br=
><br></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></blockquote></div>

--00000000000022298e058d4983ec--


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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the QUIC WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Hypertext Transfer Protocol Version 3 (HTTP/3)
        Author          : Mike Bishop
	Filename        : draft-ietf-quic-http-21.txt
	Pages           : 61
	Date            : 2019-07-08

Abstract:
   The QUIC transport protocol has several features that are desirable
   in a transport for HTTP, such as stream multiplexing, per-stream flow
   control, and low-latency connection establishment.  This document
   describes a mapping of HTTP semantics over QUIC.  This document also
   identifies HTTP/2 features that are subsumed by QUIC, and describes
   how HTTP/2 extensions can be ported to HTTP/3.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-quic-http/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-quic-http-21
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-quic-http-21

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-quic-http-21


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the QUIC WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Hypertext Transfer Protocol Version 3 (HTTP/3)
        Author          : Mike Bishop
	Filename        : draft-ietf-quic-http-22.txt
	Pages           : 61
	Date            : 2019-07-09

Abstract:
   The QUIC transport protocol has several features that are desirable
   in a transport for HTTP, such as stream multiplexing, per-stream flow
   control, and low-latency connection establishment.  This document
   describes a mapping of HTTP semantics over QUIC.  This document also
   identifies HTTP/2 features that are subsumed by QUIC, and describes
   how HTTP/2 extensions can be ported to HTTP/3.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-quic-http/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-quic-http-22
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-quic-http-22

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-quic-http-22


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 21:35:03 +1000
From: "Martin Thomson" <mt@lowentropy.net>
To: quic@ietf.org
Subject: Re: -21 drafts out, missing important changes
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On Wed, Jul 10, 2019, at 02:19, Julian Reschke wrote:
> FWIW, <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-quic-http/> doesn't
> show version 21...

Our editor is having a well-earned break right now, so it didn't get approved.  The secretariat just fixed it up for us.


From nobody Wed Jul 10 05:14:41 2019
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Subject: Re: -21 drafts out, missing important changes
To: Martin Thomson <mt@lowentropy.net>, quic@ietf.org
References: <0e87bb0b-0298-4f93-92f3-7e2883ba7750@www.fastmail.com> <91c85c66-b4a3-67d8-cc1c-d56cb4e3a67f@gmx.de> <868e541a-c18a-40a0-a105-3c7b69e2d825@www.fastmail.com>
From: Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de>
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Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 14:14:21 +0200
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On 10.07.2019 13:35, Martin Thomson wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 10, 2019, at 02:19, Julian Reschke wrote:
>> FWIW, <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-quic-http/> doesn't
>> show version 21...
>
> Our editor is having a well-earned break right now, so it didn't get app=
roved.  The secretariat just fixed it up for us.

Yep, figured that out in the meantime :-)

Best regards, Julian


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Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-quic-invariants-06.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the QUIC WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Version-Independent Properties of QUIC
        Author          : Martin Thomson
	Filename        : draft-ietf-quic-invariants-06.txt
	Pages           : 10
	Date            : 2019-07-10

Abstract:
   This document defines the properties of the QUIC transport protocol
   that are expected to remain unchanged over time as new versions of
   the protocol are developed.

Note to Readers

   Discussion of this draft takes place on the QUIC working group
   mailing list (quic@ietf.org), which is archived at
   https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/search/?email_list=quic [1].

   Working Group information can be found at https://github.com/quicwg
   [2]; source code and issues list for this draft can be found at
   https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/labels/-invariants [3].


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-quic-invariants/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-quic-invariants-06
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-quic-invariants-06

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-quic-invariants-06


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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From: Tommy Pauly <tpauly@apple.com>
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Subject: Re: Updated DATAGRAM -03 draft
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2019 09:12:18 -0700
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Cc: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
To: Ian Swett <ianswett=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
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> On Jul 9, 2019, at 6:22 PM, Ian Swett =
<ianswett=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>=20
> Thanks Tommy.  As I've expressed before, I'm not a big fan of the ID =
field(now flow identifiers) unless they have clear transport level =
functionality.

Understood!=20
>=20
> Adding signaling for opening and closing these flows seems like a =
stronger reason to add these IDs to the transport layer.  Have you =
considered splitting this draft into two or the frame type into two and =
making the version with a flow identifier more full-featured?
>=20

That's certainly an option. As it stands, the frame type with a Flow ID =
is already a different type value. I think if people decide that the =
datagrams are mainly useful with the extra signaling being part of the =
transport layer, then I'd prefer to just do that in this document, but =
if not, then it can be separate.

Overall, I see a few different options for handling flow IDs:

- Remove them from the DATAGRAM transport altogether
- Support flow IDs in the DATAGRAM draft with more explicit tie-ins to =
the transport, like flow lifetime management
- Have a separate draft specifying how the next layer above the QUIC =
transport should manage multiplexing of datagram flows, by putting =
identifiers at the start of datagram payloads, and using reliable =
control stream(s) to negotiate lifetimes of flows

Thanks,
Tommy

> On Mon, Jul 8, 2019 at 11:20 AM Tommy Pauly =
<tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org =
<mailto:40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:
> Hello all,
>=20
> We=E2=80=99ve updated the QUIC DATAGRAM draft to incorporate some of =
the feedback we received at the side meeting in Prague. Notably, it =
clarifies:
>=20
> - Guidance around datagram acknowledgements
> - Datagrams do not participate in any flow control
> - Datagrams do participate in congestion control
>=20
> The remaining area of open discussion is around the newly re-named =
optional =E2=80=9Cflow identifiers=E2=80=9D. The primary argument for =
removing these is that applications can add identifiers onto datagrams =
themselves, and the transport should not transmit a field that it does =
not do anything with. We did add some text clarifying that these =
identifiers are essentially like UDP ports for demultiplexing, and =
pointed out some *minimal* things the transport can do to help batch =
transmission of datagrams in the same flow and promote fate-sharing =
within a flow. There=E2=80=99s been some discussion on Slack of other =
approaches that would make these flow IDs more first-class =
citizens=E2=80=94adding reliable signaling for opening and closing =
flows, as many applications would also generally need some similar sort =
of control channel=E2=80=94but these seem a bit heavy-weight. Either =
way, this is an area where discussion is welcome and I expect the =
document to change.
>=20
> Best,
> Tommy
>=20
>> Begin forwarded message:
>>=20
>> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org>
>> Subject: New Version Notification for =
draft-pauly-quic-datagram-03.txt
>> Date: July 6, 2019 at 6:30:01 PM PDT
>> To: Eric Kinnear <ekinnear@apple.com <mailto:ekinnear@apple.com>>, =
David Schinazi <dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com =
<mailto:dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com>>, Tommy Pauly <tpauly@apple.com =
<mailto:tpauly@apple.com>>
>>=20
>>=20
>> A new version of I-D, draft-pauly-quic-datagram-03.txt
>> has been successfully submitted by Tommy Pauly and posted to the
>> IETF repository.
>>=20
>> Name:		draft-pauly-quic-datagram
>> Revision:	03
>> Title:		An Unreliable Datagram Extension to QUIC
>> Document date:	2019-07-06
>> Group:		Individual Submission
>> Pages:		8
>> URL:            =
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-pauly-quic-datagram-03.txt =
<https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-pauly-quic-datagram-03.txt>
>> Status:         =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-pauly-quic-datagram/ =
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-pauly-quic-datagram/>
>> Htmlized:       =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pauly-quic-datagram-03 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pauly-quic-datagram-03>
>> Htmlized:       =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-pauly-quic-datagram =
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-pauly-quic-datagram>
>> Diff:           =
https://www.ietf..org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-pauly-quic-datagram-03 =
<https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-pauly-quic-datagram-03>
>>=20
>> Abstract:
>>   This document defines an extension to the QUIC transport protocol =
to
>>   add support for sending and receiving unreliable datagrams over a
>>   QUIC connection.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission
>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org =
<http://tools.ietf.org/>.
>>=20
>> The IETF Secretariat
>>=20
>=20


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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Jul 9, 2019, at 6:22 PM, Ian Swett &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ianswett=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org" =
class=3D"">ianswett=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"">Thanks Tommy.&nbsp; As I've expressed before, I'm =
not a big fan of the ID field(now flow identifiers) unless they have =
clear transport level functionality.</div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div>Understood!&nbsp;<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite"=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Adding signaling for =
opening and closing these flows seems like a stronger reason to add =
these IDs to the transport layer.&nbsp; Have you considered splitting =
this draft into two or the frame type into two and making the version =
with a flow identifier more full-featured?</div></div><br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>That's =
certainly an option. As it stands, the frame type with a Flow ID is =
already a different type value. I think if people decide that the =
datagrams are mainly useful with the extra signaling being part of the =
transport layer, then I'd prefer to just do that in this document, but =
if not, then it can be separate.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Overall, I see a few different options for =
handling flow IDs:</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>- Remove them =
from the DATAGRAM transport altogether</div><div>- Support flow IDs in =
the DATAGRAM draft with more explicit tie-ins to the transport, like =
flow lifetime management</div><div>- Have a separate draft specifying =
how the next layer above the QUIC transport should manage multiplexing =
of datagram flows, by putting identifiers at the start of datagram =
payloads, and using reliable control stream(s) to negotiate lifetimes of =
flows</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Tommy</div><br=
 class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Jul =
8, 2019 at 11:20 AM Tommy Pauly &lt;tpauly=3D<a =
href=3D"mailto:40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"">Hello all,<div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">We=E2=80=99ve updated =
the QUIC DATAGRAM draft to incorporate some of the feedback we received =
at the side meeting in Prague. Notably, it clarifies:</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">- Guidance around =
datagram acknowledgements</div><div class=3D"">- Datagrams do not =
participate in any flow control</div><div class=3D"">- Datagrams do =
participate in congestion control</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The remaining area of open discussion =
is around the newly re-named optional =E2=80=9Cflow identifiers=E2=80=9D. =
The primary argument for removing these is that applications can add =
identifiers onto datagrams themselves, and the transport should not =
transmit a field that it does not do anything with. We did add some text =
clarifying that these identifiers are essentially like UDP ports for =
demultiplexing, and pointed out some *minimal* things the transport can =
do to help batch transmission of datagrams in the same flow and promote =
fate-sharing within a flow. There=E2=80=99s been some discussion on =
Slack of other approaches that would make these flow IDs more =
first-class citizens=E2=80=94adding reliable signaling for opening and =
closing flows, as many applications would also generally need some =
similar sort of control channel=E2=80=94but these seem a bit =
heavy-weight. Either way, this is an area where discussion is welcome =
and I expect the document to change.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Best,</div><div =
class=3D"">Tommy</div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">Begin =
forwarded message:</div><br =
class=3D"gmail-m_-2161425353029619216gmail-m_-3396130755833843507Apple-int=
erchange-newline"><div style=3D"margin:0px" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, &quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;, =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">From: </b></span><span =
style=3D"font-family:-webkit-system-font,&quot;Helvetica =
Neue&quot;,Helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin:0px" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
-webkit-system-font, &quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;, Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject: </b></span><span =
style=3D"font-family:-webkit-system-font,&quot;Helvetica =
Neue&quot;,Helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D""><b class=3D"">New Version =
Notification for draft-pauly-quic-datagram-03.txt</b><br =
class=3D""></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0px" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, &quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;, =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">Date: </b></span><span =
style=3D"font-family:-webkit-system-font,&quot;Helvetica =
Neue&quot;,Helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"">July 6, 2019 at 6:30:01 PM =
PDT<br class=3D""></span></div><div style=3D"margin:0px" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: -webkit-system-font, &quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;, =
Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">To: </b></span><span =
style=3D"font-family:-webkit-system-font,&quot;Helvetica =
Neue&quot;,Helvetica,sans-serif" class=3D"">Eric Kinnear &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ekinnear@apple.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">ekinnear@apple.com</a>&gt;, David Schinazi &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;, Tommy Pauly &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:tpauly@apple.com" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">tpauly@apple.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""></span></div><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D"">A new version =
of I-D, draft-pauly-quic-datagram-03.txt<br class=3D"">has been =
successfully submitted by Tommy Pauly and posted to the<br class=3D"">IETF=
 repository.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Name:<span =
class=3D"gmail-m_-2161425353029619216gmail-m_-3396130755833843507Apple-tab=
-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span><span =
class=3D"gmail-m_-2161425353029619216gmail-m_-3396130755833843507Apple-tab=
-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	=
</span>draft-pauly-quic-datagram<br class=3D"">Revision:<span =
class=3D"gmail-m_-2161425353029619216gmail-m_-3396130755833843507Apple-tab=
-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>03<br =
class=3D"">Title:<span =
class=3D"gmail-m_-2161425353029619216gmail-m_-3396130755833843507Apple-tab=
-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span><span =
class=3D"gmail-m_-2161425353029619216gmail-m_-3396130755833843507Apple-tab=
-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>An Unreliable Datagram =
Extension to QUIC<br class=3D"">Document date:<span =
class=3D"gmail-m_-2161425353029619216gmail-m_-3396130755833843507Apple-tab=
-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>2019-07-06<br =
class=3D"">Group:<span =
class=3D"gmail-m_-2161425353029619216gmail-m_-3396130755833843507Apple-tab=
-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span><span =
class=3D"gmail-m_-2161425353029619216gmail-m_-3396130755833843507Apple-tab=
-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>Individual Submission<br =
class=3D"">Pages:<span =
class=3D"gmail-m_-2161425353029619216gmail-m_-3396130755833843507Apple-tab=
-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span><span =
class=3D"gmail-m_-2161425353029619216gmail-m_-3396130755833843507Apple-tab=
-span" style=3D"white-space:pre-wrap">	</span>8<br class=3D"">URL: =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-pauly-quic-datagram-03.=
txt" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-pauly-quic-datagram-=
03.txt</a><br class=3D"">Status: =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-pauly-quic-datagram/" =
target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-pauly-quic-datagram/</a>=
<br class=3D"">Htmlized: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pauly-quic-datagram-03" =
target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pauly-quic-datagram-03</a><br=
 class=3D"">Htmlized: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-pauly-quic-datagram" =
target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-pauly-quic-datagram=
</a><br class=3D"">Diff: =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-pauly-quic-datagram-03" =
target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf..org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-pauly-quic-datagram-=
03</a><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Abstract:<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;This document defines an extension to the QUIC transport =
protocol to<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;add support for sending and =
receiving unreliable datagrams over a<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;QUIC =
connection.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br=
 class=3D"">Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the =
time of submission<br class=3D"">until the htmlized version and diff are =
available at <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">tools.ietf.org</a>.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">The IETF =
Secretariat<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div>
</div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=

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--_000_BL0PR2101MB1332DED052BF219969E70F43B3F00BL0PR2101MB1332_--


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From: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
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Subject: Presentations for issues you own in Montreal
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Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 13:14:37 +1000
Cc: Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>
To: IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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If you've been assigned an issue:
   =
https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues?utf8=3D=E2=9C=93&q=3Dis%3Aope=
n+is%3Aissue+-label%3A-http+label%3Adesign+-label%3Aproposal-ready

... and wish to present slides to guide discussion in Montreal, please =
send Lars and/or I your BRIEF presentation by next Wednesday; we will =
not accept last-minute slides.

Thanks,

--
Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/


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From: Dave Plonka <dave@plonka.us>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2019 14:32:37 -0500
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Subject: QUIC topics at MAPRG meeting, IETF 105 Montreal, Friday morning
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Hi folks,

Please note that the Measurement and Analysis for Protocols Research
Group (MAPRG)
has arranged for presentaiton of three measurement contributions
pertinent to QUIC engineering
and/or operation at our upcoming meeting during IETF 105 in Montreal:

* Measuring QUIC Dynamics over a High Delay Path

* Trials and tribulations of migrating to IETF QUIC

* Packet Loss Signaling for Encrypted Protocols

MARG is scheduled to meet as follows:

   Date: Friday July 26, 10:00-12:00 (Morning session I)
   Room: Place du Canada

and the meeting full agenda including abstracts is here:

   https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/105/materials/agenda-105-maprg.html

Please join us if you are interested!

Thanks,
Dave & Mirja (MAPRG chairs)

-- 
dave@plonka.us  http://www.cs.wisc.edu/~plonka/


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Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2019 14:37:39 +0800
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            <DIV>We have submitted a draft '<A=20
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f/">draft-dai-quic-netconf-00</A>'=20
            which is about 'using</DIV>
            <DIV>netconf over QUIC connections', if you have any comments,=
=20
            please let us know.</DIV>
            <DIV>Thank you very much!</DIV>
            <DIV>Best regards!</DIV>
            <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
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f/">draft-dai-quic-netconf-00</A>'=20
            which is about 'using</DIV>
            <DIV>netconf over QUIC connections', if you have any comments,=
=20
            please let us know.</DIV>
            <DIV>Thank you very much!</DIV>
            <DIV>Best regards!</DIV>
            <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
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Subject: Handshake costs 2-RTT when token validation fail
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--00000000000013d17a058d78c6d7
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Can server continue to handshake when token validation fail? Client

may send new token in Handshake packet.

Just like this

Client                                                  Server

   Initial ->

                                                   <- Retry+Token
                                                   <- Handshake

   Handshake+Token->


Is there other solution to avoid 2-RTT?

--------------------

Client                                                  Server

   Initial[0]: CRYPTO[CH] ->

                                                   <- Retry+Token

   Initial+Token[1]: CRYPTO[CH] ->

                                    Initial[0]: CRYPTO[SH] ACK[1]
                          Handshake[0]: CRYPTO[EE, CERT, CV, FIN]
                                    <- 1-RTT[0]: STREAM[1, "..."]

                  Figure 5: Example Handshake with Retry

--00000000000013d17a058d78c6d7
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><pre class=3D"gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;=
margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Can se=
rver continue to handshake when token validation fail? Client</pre><pre cla=
ss=3D"gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bot=
tom:0px;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)">may send new token in Handshake=
 packet.</pre><pre class=3D"gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;mar=
gin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Just like=
 this</pre><pre class=3D"gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin=
-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Client =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Server<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Initial -&gt;<br><br>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;- Retry+Token<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;- Handshake<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Handshake+Token-&gt;<br></=
pre><pre class=3D"gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0p=
x;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></pre><pre clas=
s=3D"gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bott=
om:0px;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Is there other solution to avoid=
 2-RTT?</pre><pre class=3D"gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;marg=
in-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)">----------=
----------</pre><pre class=3D"gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;m=
argin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Client =
                                                 Server

   Initial[0]: CRYPTO[CH] -&gt;

                                                   &lt;- Retry+Token

   Initial+Token[1]: CRYPTO[CH] -&gt;

                                    Initial[0]: CRYPTO[SH] ACK[1]
                          Handshake[0]: CRYPTO[EE, CERT, CV, FIN]
                                    &lt;- 1-RTT[0]: STREAM[1, &quot;...&quo=
t;]

                  Figure 5: Example Handshake with Retry</pre><pre class=3D=
"gmail-newpage" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0=
px;break-before:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></pre><pre class=3D"gmail-newpag=
e" style=3D"font-size:13.3333px;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;break-befo=
re:page;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><br></pre></div>

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Issues
------
* quicwg/base-drafts (+9/-5/=F0=9F=92=AC38)
  9 issues created:
  - Advise bundling a PING or other small ACK eliciting frame with Initials=
 (by ianswett)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2895 [-recovery] =

  - In Initial and Handshake packets, knowing undecryptable packets could a=
ccelerate handshakes with loss (by ianswett)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2894 [-transport] =

  - QPACK Required Insert Count decoding pseudocode does not enforce that e=
ncoding is valid (by bencebeky)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2892 =

  - HTTP/2 in Peer Denial of Service? (by zz85)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2890 =

  - HTTP/3 support for status 101(Switching Protocols) (by LPardue)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2889 =

  - Crypto Retransmission Timeout interacts poorly with Congestion Control =
(by marten-seemann)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2886 =

  - Appendix A of quic-tls is wrong (by martinduke)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2885 =

  - Inconsistency in STOP_SENDING requirements relative to resetting stream=
s in general (by mjoras)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2884 =

  - Section 10.4 Stateless Reset grammatical error (by gjnance)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2876 =


  15 issues received 38 new comments:
  - #2670 Remove ack_delay_exponent TP (10 by marten-seemann, martinthomson=
, ianswett, kazuho, mikkelfj)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2670 [-transport] [design] =

  - #2884 Inconsistency in STOP_SENDING requirements relative to resetting =
streams in general (6 by mjoras, martinthomson, ianswett, mikkelfj)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2884 [-transport] [editori=
al] =

  - #2823 Do Initial secrets change after Retry packet? (3 by DavidSchinazi=
, ianswett)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2823 [-tls] [editorial] =

  - #2844 Client connection IDs are broken (3 by DavidSchinazi, Ralith)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2844 [-transport] [design] =

  - #2205 Largest acked in ACK frame MUST NOT decrease (3 by martinthomson,=
 janaiyengar)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2205 [-transport] [design] =

  - #2869 Stateless Reset packet sizes should not depend on the maximum con=
nection ID length (3 by martinthomson, mikkelfj, ianswett)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2869 [-transport] =

  - #2834 Long Header Packets and Routing Connection IDs (2 by mirjak, mart=
inthomson)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2834 [-transport] [design] =

  - #2339 QPACK: instructions and stream description is suboptimal (1 by af=
rind)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2339 [-qpack] [editorial] =

  - #2885 Appendix A of quic-tls is wrong (1 by martinthomson)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2885 [-tls] [editorial] =

  - #2886 Crypto Retransmission Timeout interacts poorly with Congestion Co=
ntrol (1 by ianswett)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2886 =

  - #2892 QPACK Required Insert Count decoding pseudocode does not enforce =
that encoding is valid (1 by bencebeky)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2892 =

  - #2638 max_ack_delay is unknown when a new connection is established (1 =
by ianswett)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2638 [-recovery] [-transpo=
rt] [design] [has-consensus] =

  - #2143 Be more conservative about migration? (1 by erickinnear)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2143 [-transport] [design] =

  - #2541 Clients cannot abandon Initial packets while server can still sen=
d initial close (1 by DavidSchinazi)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2541 [-transport] [design] =

  - #2550 Apply GREASE to transport parameters (1 by mjoras)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2550 [-transport] [design] =


  5 issues closed:
  - max_ack_delay is unknown when a new connection is established https://g=
ithub.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2638 [-recovery] [-transport] [design] =
[has-consensus] =

  - QPACK: instructions and stream description is suboptimal https://github=
.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2339 [-qpack] [editorial] =

  - More Connection ID Space https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2=
736 [-invariants] [design] [has-consensus] =

  - Section 10.4 Stateless Reset grammatical error https://github.com/quicw=
g/base-drafts/issues/2876 [-transport] [editorial] =

  - transport: dangling references https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/is=
sues/2874 [-transport] [editorial] =




Pull requests
-------------
* quicwg/base-drafts (+11/-5/=F0=9F=92=AC31)
  11 pull requests submitted:
  - Remove DoS vector for spoofed connection migration (by erickinnear)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2893 =

  - qpack: fix reference to blocked-streams section (by dtikhonov)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2891 =

  - Firm up language around stream termination (by martinthomson)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2888 [-transport] [editorial=
] =

  - Get test vectors in place for -23 (by martinthomson)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2887 [-tls] [design] =

  - fixed typo (by martinduke)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2883 =

  - Remove spin coordination requirement (by martinthomson)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2882 [-transport] [design] =

  - Explain asymmetric confirmation condition (by martinthomson)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2881 [-transport] [design] =

  - Articulate error code principles (by martinthomson)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2880 [-transport] [design] =

  - Add note about stale ACK frames breaking ECN (by janaiyengar)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2879 =

  - Initial secrets do not change after Retry (by ianswett)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2878 [-tls] =

  - Editorial fix for #2479 (by ianswett)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2877 =


  8 pull requests received 31 new comments:
  - #2881 Explain asymmetric confirmation condition (14 by martinthomson, m=
arten-seemann, ianswett)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2881 [-transport] [design] =

  - #2880 Articulate error code principles (8 by martinthomson, mikkelfj, L=
Pardue, ianswett)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2880 [-transport] [design] =

  - #2878 Initial secrets do not change after Retry (4 by martinthomson, ma=
rten-seemann, ianswett)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2878 [-tls] [-transport] [de=
sign] =

  - #2873 grease transport parameters (1 by marten-seemann)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2873 [-transport] [design] =

  - #2877 Editorial fix for #2479 (1 by ianswett)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2877 [-transport] [editorial=
] =

  - #2882 Remove spin coordination requirement (1 by mikkelfj)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2882 [-transport] [design] =

  - #2887 Get test vectors in place for -23 (1 by martinthomson)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2887 [-tls] [design] =

  - #2851 Allow connections to share a port by adding restrictions on zero-=
length connection IDs (1 by DavidSchinazi)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2851 [-transport] =


  5 pull requests merged:
  - qpack: fix reference to blocked-streams section
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2891 =

  - fixed typo
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2883 [-transport] [editorial=
] =

  - Editorial fix for #2479
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2877 [-invariants] [-transpo=
rt] [editorial] =

  - Allow longer CIDs
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2749 [-invariants] [-transpo=
rt] [design] =

  - Change log for -21
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2875 [editorial] =



Repositories tracked by this digest:
-----------------------------------
* https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts

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<body>
<h1>Sunday July 14, 2019</h1>


<h2>Issues</h2>

<h3>quicwg/base-drafts (+9/-5/=F0=9F=92=AC38)</h3>
  <p class=3D"new">9 issues created:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#2895 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2895">A=
dvise bundling a PING or other small ACK eliciting frame with Initials</a> =
(by ianswett) <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; col=
or: #000000">-recovery</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2894 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2894">I=
n Initial and Handshake packets, knowing undecryptable packets could accele=
rate handshakes with loss</a> (by ianswett) <span class=3D"label" style=3D"=
background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-transport</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2892 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2892">Q=
PACK Required Insert Count decoding pseudocode does not enforce that encodi=
ng is valid</a> (by bencebeky) </li>
  =

  <li>#2890 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2890">H=
TTP/2 in Peer Denial of Service?</a> (by zz85) </li>
  =

  <li>#2889 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2889">H=
TTP/3 support for status 101(Switching Protocols)</a> (by LPardue) </li>
  =

  <li>#2886 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2886">C=
rypto Retransmission Timeout interacts poorly with Congestion Control</a> (=
by marten-seemann) </li>
  =

  <li>#2885 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2885">A=
ppendix A of quic-tls is wrong</a> (by martinduke) </li>
  =

  <li>#2884 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2884">I=
nconsistency in STOP_SENDING requirements relative to resetting streams in =
general</a> (by mjoras) </li>
  =

  <li>#2876 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2876">S=
ection 10.4 Stateless Reset grammatical error</a> (by gjnance) </li>
  </ul>

  <p>15 issues received 38 new comments:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#2670 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2670">R=
emove ack_delay_exponent TP</a> (10 by marten-seemann, martinthomson, iansw=
ett, kazuho, mikkelfj) <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fb=
ca04; color: #000000">-transport</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"back=
ground-color: #1d76db; color: #ffffff">design</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2884 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2884">I=
nconsistency in STOP_SENDING requirements relative to resetting streams in =
general</a> (6 by mjoras, martinthomson, ianswett, mikkelfj) <span class=3D=
"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-transport</spa=
n> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #0e8a16; color: #ffffff=
">editorial</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2823 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2823">D=
o Initial secrets change after Retry packet?</a> (3 by DavidSchinazi, iansw=
ett) <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #0000=
00">-tls</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #0e8a16; c=
olor: #ffffff">editorial</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2844 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2844">C=
lient connection IDs are broken</a> (3 by DavidSchinazi, Ralith) <span clas=
s=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-transport<=
/span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color: #ff=
ffff">design</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2205 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2205">L=
argest acked in ACK frame MUST NOT decrease</a> (3 by martinthomson, janaiy=
engar) <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #00=
0000">-transport</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1=
d76db; color: #ffffff">design</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2869 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2869">S=
tateless Reset packet sizes should not depend on the maximum connection ID =
length</a> (3 by martinthomson, mikkelfj, ianswett) <span class=3D"label" s=
tyle=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-transport</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2834 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2834">L=
ong Header Packets and Routing Connection IDs</a> (2 by mirjak, martinthoms=
on) <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #00000=
0">-transport</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76=
db; color: #ffffff">design</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2339 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2339">Q=
PACK: instructions and stream description is suboptimal</a> (1 by afrind) <=
span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-q=
pack</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #0e8a16; color=
: #ffffff">editorial</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2885 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2885">A=
ppendix A of quic-tls is wrong</a> (1 by martinthomson) <span class=3D"labe=
l" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-tls</span> <span cl=
ass=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #0e8a16; color: #ffffff">editorial=
</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2886 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2886">C=
rypto Retransmission Timeout interacts poorly with Congestion Control</a> (=
1 by ianswett) </li>
  =

  <li>#2892 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2892">Q=
PACK Required Insert Count decoding pseudocode does not enforce that encodi=
ng is valid</a> (1 by bencebeky) </li>
  =

  <li>#2638 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2638">m=
ax_ack_delay is unknown when a new connection is established</a> (1 by ians=
wett) <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000=
000">-recovery</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbc=
a04; color: #000000">-transport</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"backg=
round-color: #1d76db; color: #ffffff">design</span> <span class=3D"label" s=
tyle=3D"background-color: #5319e7; color: #ffffff">has-consensus</span> </l=
i>
  =

  <li>#2143 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2143">B=
e more conservative about migration?</a> (1 by erickinnear) <span class=3D"=
label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-transport</span=
> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color: #ffffff"=
>design</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2541 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2541">C=
lients cannot abandon Initial packets while server can still send initial c=
lose</a> (1 by DavidSchinazi) <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-col=
or: #fbca04; color: #000000">-transport</span> <span class=3D"label" style=
=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color: #ffffff">design</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2550 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2550">A=
pply GREASE to transport parameters</a> (1 by mjoras) <span class=3D"label"=
 style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-transport</span> <spa=
n class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color: #ffffff">desig=
n</span> </li>
  </ul>

  <p>5 issues closed:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#2638 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2638">m=
ax_ack_delay is unknown when a new connection is established</a> <span clas=
s=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-recovery</=
span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000=
000">-transport</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d=
76db; color: #ffffff">design</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"backgrou=
nd-color: #5319e7; color: #ffffff">has-consensus</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2339 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2339">Q=
PACK: instructions and stream description is suboptimal</a> <span class=3D"=
label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-qpack</span> <s=
pan class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #0e8a16; color: #ffffff">edi=
torial</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2736 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2736">M=
ore Connection ID Space</a> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color=
: #fbca04; color: #000000">-invariants</span> <span class=3D"label" style=
=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color: #ffffff">design</span> <span class=3D=
"label" style=3D"background-color: #5319e7; color: #ffffff">has-consensus</=
span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2876 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2876">S=
ection 10.4 Stateless Reset grammatical error</a> <span class=3D"label" sty=
le=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-transport</span> <span cl=
ass=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #0e8a16; color: #ffffff">editorial=
</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2874 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2874">t=
ransport: dangling references</a> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background=
-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-transport</span> <span class=3D"label" st=
yle=3D"background-color: #0e8a16; color: #ffffff">editorial</span> </li>
  </ul>



<h2>Pull requests</h2>
<h3>quicwg/base-drafts (+11/-5/=F0=9F=92=AC31)</h3>
  <p class=3D"new">11 pull requests submitted:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#2893 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2893">Rem=
ove DoS vector for spoofed connection migration</a> (by erickinnear) </li>
  =

  <li>#2891 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2891">qpa=
ck: fix reference to blocked-streams section</a> (by dtikhonov) </li>
  =

  <li>#2888 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2888">Fir=
m up language around stream termination</a> (by martinthomson) <span class=
=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #">-transport</span> =
<span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #0e8a16; color: #">editori=
al</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2887 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2887">Get=
 test vectors in place for -23</a> (by martinthomson) <span class=3D"label"=
 style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #">-tls</span> <span class=3D"l=
abel" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color: #">design</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2883 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2883">fix=
ed typo</a> (by martinduke) </li>
  =

  <li>#2882 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2882">Rem=
ove spin coordination requirement</a> (by martinthomson) <span class=3D"lab=
el" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #">-transport</span> <span c=
lass=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color: #">design</span> =
</li>
  =

  <li>#2881 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2881">Exp=
lain asymmetric confirmation condition</a> (by martinthomson) <span class=
=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #">-transport</span> =
<span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color: #">design<=
/span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2880 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2880">Art=
iculate error code principles</a> (by martinthomson) <span class=3D"label" =
style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #">-transport</span> <span class=
=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color: #">design</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2879 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2879">Add=
 note about stale ACK frames breaking ECN</a> (by janaiyengar) </li>
  =

  <li>#2878 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2878">Ini=
tial secrets do not change after Retry</a> (by ianswett) <span class=3D"lab=
el" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #">-tls</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2877 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2877">Edi=
torial fix for #2479</a> (by ianswett) </li>
  </ul>

  <p>8 pull requests received 31 new comments:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#2881 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2881">Exp=
lain asymmetric confirmation condition</a> (14 by martinthomson, marten-see=
mann, ianswett) <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; c=
olor: #000000">-transport</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-=
color: #1d76db; color: #ffffff">design</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2880 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2880">Art=
iculate error code principles</a> (8 by martinthomson, mikkelfj, LPardue, i=
answett) <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #=
000000">-transport</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: =
#1d76db; color: #ffffff">design</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2878 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2878">Ini=
tial secrets do not change after Retry</a> (4 by martinthomson, marten-seem=
ann, ianswett) <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; co=
lor: #000000">-tls</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: =
#fbca04; color: #000000">-transport</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"b=
ackground-color: #1d76db; color: #ffffff">design</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2873 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2873">gre=
ase transport parameters</a> (1 by marten-seemann) <span class=3D"label" st=
yle=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-transport</span> <span c=
lass=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color: #ffffff">design</=
span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2877 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2877">Edi=
torial fix for #2479</a> (1 by ianswett) <span class=3D"label" style=3D"bac=
kground-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-transport</span> <span class=3D"la=
bel" style=3D"background-color: #0e8a16; color: #ffffff">editorial</span> <=
/li>
  =

  <li>#2882 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2882">Rem=
ove spin coordination requirement</a> (1 by mikkelfj) <span class=3D"label"=
 style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-transport</span> <spa=
n class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color: #ffffff">desig=
n</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2887 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2887">Get=
 test vectors in place for -23</a> (1 by martinthomson) <span class=3D"labe=
l" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-tls</span> <span cl=
ass=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color: #ffffff">design</s=
pan> </li>
  =

  <li>#2851 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2851">All=
ow connections to share a port by adding restrictions on zero-length connec=
tion IDs</a> (1 by DavidSchinazi) <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background=
-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-transport</span> </li>
  </ul>

  <p>5 pull requests merged:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#2891 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2891">qpa=
ck: fix reference to blocked-streams section</a> </li>
  =

  <li>#2883 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2883">fix=
ed typo</a> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color=
: #">-transport</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #0e=
8a16; color: #">editorial</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2877 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2877">Edi=
torial fix for #2479</a> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #=
fbca04; color: #">-invariants</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"backgro=
und-color: #fbca04; color: #">-transport</span> <span class=3D"label" style=
=3D"background-color: #0e8a16; color: #">editorial</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2749 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2749">All=
ow longer CIDs</a> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04=
; color: #">-invariants</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-co=
lor: #fbca04; color: #">-transport</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"ba=
ckground-color: #1d76db; color: #">design</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2875 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2875">Cha=
nge log for -21</a> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #0e8a1=
6; color: #">editorial</span> </li>
  </ul>


<h2>Repositories tracked by this digest:</h2>
<ul class=3D"repos">
  <li><a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts">https://github.com/=
quicwg/base-drafts</a></li>
  </ul>
</body>
</html>

--===============3535337387347897642==--


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Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2019 12:27:18 +1000
From: "Martin Thomson" <mt@lowentropy.net>
To: quic@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Handshake costs 2-RTT when token validation fail
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The reason we have Retry is to force an extra RTT.  This is really only =
for the case where the server is unable or unwilling to process the Init=
ial without proof that the client is "live".  That is, the client can de=
monstrate that they are not spoofing their source address.

On Fri, Jul 12, 2019, at 19:45, Jiuhai Zhang wrote:
> Can server continue to handshake when token validation fail? Clientmay=
=20
> send new token in Handshake packet.Just like thisClient =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=20
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Server
>=20
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0Initial ->
>=20
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<- Retry+Token
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<- Handshake
>=20
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0Handshake+Token->
>=20
> Is there other solution to avoid 2-RTT?--------------------Client     =
 =20
>                                            Server
>=20
>    Initial[0]: CRYPTO[CH] ->
>=20
>                                                    <- Retry+Token
>=20
>    Initial+Token[1]: CRYPTO[CH] ->
>=20
>                                     Initial[0]: CRYPTO[SH] ACK[1]
>                           Handshake[0]: CRYPTO[EE, CERT, CV, FIN]
>                                     <- 1-RTT[0]: STREAM[1, "..."]
>=20
>                   Figure 5: Example Handshake with Retry
>


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From: Robin MARX <robin.marx@uhasselt.be>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2019 12:03:05 +0200
Message-ID: <CAC7UV9aOPdy3wYaJGnq9UmYz6wr42TkfJS1qXH-PvLGLf1w+5Q@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Updated DATAGRAM -03 draft
To: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
Cc: Tommy Pauly <tpauly=40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
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Hello Tommy,

Good to see the updated draft.
I do wonder about the decision to enforce congestion control for DATAGRAM
frames and the effect this will have on the gaming use case.
As also discussed in Prague, real-time gaming often requires a set update
rate frequency (e.g., 30-60 messages per second) for responsiveness.
I wonder if congestion controlling the frames (e.g., delaying/dropping
them) will produce some weird edge cases that really mess with this setup.
It's a bit difficult to assess because the messages are usually relatively
small (though they could be mixed with larger messages, e.g., RPCs) and you
could make the argument that, if there is actual congestion, the packets
will be dropped in the network either way.
You could also say that custom game-focused implementations will just
ignore the text and do their own logic as needed.

So I'm not sure the text needs changes, I just wanted to mention that it
might not be optimal for the real-time gaming use case and that it might be
capable footgun with some weird edge cases if people do stick to the text.

With best regards,
Robin


On Wed, 10 Jul 2019 at 18:30, Nick Banks <nibanks=3D
40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

> My preference would also be to support flow control for the IDs. Though, =
I
> still think that the IDs by themselves have merit. As Tommy has said, you
> can think of a datagram ID on a given connection as pretty much the same
> thing as a UDP port for an IP address. If both sides know before hand wha=
t
> port to use, everything is fine.
>
>
>
> - Nick
>
>
>
> *From:* QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of * Tommy Pauly
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 10, 2019 9:12 AM
> *To:* Ian Swett <ianswett=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
> *Cc:* QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: Updated DATAGRAM -03 draft
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jul 9, 2019, at 6:22 PM, Ian Swett <
> ianswett=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> Thanks Tommy.  As I've expressed before, I'm not a big fan of the ID
> field(now flow identifiers) unless they have clear transport level
> functionality.
>
>
>
> Understood!
>
>
>
> Adding signaling for opening and closing these flows seems like a stronge=
r
> reason to add these IDs to the transport layer.  Have you considered
> splitting this draft into two or the frame type into two and making the
> version with a flow identifier more full-featured?
>
>
>
>
>
> That's certainly an option. As it stands, the frame type with a Flow ID i=
s
> already a different type value. I think if people decide that the datagra=
ms
> are mainly useful with the extra signaling being part of the transport
> layer, then I'd prefer to just do that in this document, but if not, then
> it can be separate.
>
>
>
> Overall, I see a few different options for handling flow IDs:
>
>
>
> - Remove them from the DATAGRAM transport altogether
>
> - Support flow IDs in the DATAGRAM draft with more explicit tie-ins to th=
e
> transport, like flow lifetime management
>
> - Have a separate draft specifying how the next layer above the QUIC
> transport should manage multiplexing of datagram flows, by putting
> identifiers at the start of datagram payloads, and using reliable control
> stream(s) to negotiate lifetimes of flows
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Tommy
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 8, 2019 at 11:20 AM Tommy Pauly <tpauly=3D
> 40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>
> Hello all,
>
>
>
> We=E2=80=99ve updated the QUIC DATAGRAM draft to incorporate some of the =
feedback
> we received at the side meeting in Prague. Notably, it clarifies:
>
>
>
> - Guidance around datagram acknowledgements
>
> - Datagrams do not participate in any flow control
>
> - Datagrams do participate in congestion control
>
>
>
> The remaining area of open discussion is around the newly re-named
> optional =E2=80=9Cflow identifiers=E2=80=9D. The primary argument for rem=
oving these is
> that applications can add identifiers onto datagrams themselves, and the
> transport should not transmit a field that it does not do anything with. =
We
> did add some text clarifying that these identifiers are essentially like
> UDP ports for demultiplexing, and pointed out some *minimal* things the
> transport can do to help batch transmission of datagrams in the same flow
> and promote fate-sharing within a flow. There=E2=80=99s been some discuss=
ion on
> Slack of other approaches that would make these flow IDs more first-class
> citizens=E2=80=94adding reliable signaling for opening and closing flows,=
 as many
> applications would also generally need some similar sort of control
> channel=E2=80=94but these seem a bit heavy-weight. Either way, this is an=
 area
> where discussion is welcome and I expect the document to change.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Tommy
>
>
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
>
>
> *From: *internet-drafts@ietf.org
>
> *Subject: New Version Notification for draft-pauly-quic-datagram-03.txt*
>
> *Date: *July 6, 2019 at 6:30:01 PM PDT
>
> *To: *Eric Kinnear <ekinnear@apple.com>, David Schinazi <
> dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com>, Tommy Pauly <tpauly@apple.com>
>
>
>
>
> A new version of I-D, draft-pauly-quic-datagram-03.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Tommy Pauly and posted to the
> IETF repository.
>
> Name: draft-pauly-quic-datagram
> Revision: 03
> Title: An Unreliable Datagram Extension to QUIC
> Document date: 2019-07-06
> Group: Individual Submission
> Pages: 8
> URL:
> https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-pauly-quic-datagram-03.txt
> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.=
ietf.org%2Finternet-drafts%2Fdraft-pauly-quic-datagram-03.txt&data=3D02%7C0=
1%7Cnibanks%40microsoft.com%7Cc6d3ea0c350e4fe3c06408d705517895%7C72f988bf86=
f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636983719793956874&sdata=3DVi6tqg74ZTl5s%2=
BG5aU1v4R4dHbSbweBuz2vSBYn6sIU%3D&reserved=3D0>
> Status:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-pauly-quic-datagram/
> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdata=
tracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fdraft-pauly-quic-datagram%2F&data=3D02%7C01%7Cniba=
nks%40microsoft.com%7Cc6d3ea0c350e4fe3c06408d705517895%7C72f988bf86f141af91=
ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636983719793961863&sdata=3DhDx9XfQUXu5YgfkzStkR47J=
5dYYjSeoEJH4hhj9RFsk%3D&reserved=3D0>
> Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pauly-quic-datagram-03
> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftool=
s.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-pauly-quic-datagram-03&data=3D02%7C01%7Cnibanks%4=
0microsoft.com%7Cc6d3ea0c350e4fe3c06408d705517895%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7=
cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636983719793966856&sdata=3DfPeG461Z1OEpy2z5vgyptHWZTgha=
DfLLqtlByAfQN%2FA%3D&reserved=3D0>
> Htmlized:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-pauly-quic-datagram
> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdata=
tracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-pauly-quic-datagram&data=3D02%7C01%7C=
nibanks%40microsoft.com%7Cc6d3ea0c350e4fe3c06408d705517895%7C72f988bf86f141=
af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636983719793971846&sdata=3D%2F5BpNnlBfTjXJKcIX=
Pw0AtSI4ZnR5ANBy0dI8uKkhFw%3D&reserved=3D0>
> Diff:
> https://www.ietf..org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-pauly-quic-datagram-03
> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.=
ietf.org%2Frfcdiff%3Furl2%3Ddraft-pauly-quic-datagram-03&data=3D02%7C01%7Cn=
ibanks%40microsoft.com%7Cc6d3ea0c350e4fe3c06408d705517895%7C72f988bf86f141a=
f91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636983719793976837&sdata=3DgEChkKf0lX7YYGBeMKiZ=
POKsN8LNerq3HURRpmzNfDc%3D&reserved=3D0>
>
> Abstract:
>   This document defines an extension to the QUIC transport protocol to
>   add support for sending and receiving unreliable datagrams over a
>   QUIC connection.
>
>
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
> submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org
> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Ftools=
.ietf.org%2F&data=3D02%7C01%7Cnibanks%40microsoft.com%7Cc6d3ea0c350e4fe3c06=
408d705517895%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C6369837197939818=
24&sdata=3DvoffvGDVz3PluwcN5wuAZqtflBE9zgk%2FD6wt2rfNU0M%3D&reserved=3D0>
> .
>
> The IETF Secretariat
>
>
>
>
>


--=20

Robin Marx
PhD researcher - web performance
Expertise centre for Digital Media

T +32(0)11 26 84 79 - GSM +32(0)497 72 86 94

www.uhasselt.be
Universiteit Hasselt - Campus Diepenbeek
Agoralaan Gebouw D - B-3590 Diepenbeek
Kantoor EDM-2.05

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hello Tommy,</div><div><br></div><div>Good to see the=
 updated draft.</div><div>I do wonder about the decision to enforce congest=
ion control for DATAGRAM frames and the effect this will have on the gaming=
 use case.=C2=A0</div><div>As also discussed in Prague, real-time gaming of=
ten requires a set update rate frequency (e.g., 30-60 messages per second) =
for responsiveness.=C2=A0</div><div>I wonder if congestion controlling the =
frames (e.g., delaying/dropping them) will produce some weird edge cases th=
at really mess with this setup.=C2=A0</div><div>It&#39;s a bit difficult to=
 assess because the messages are usually relatively small (though they coul=
d be mixed with larger messages, e.g., RPCs) and you could make the argumen=
t that, if there is actual congestion, the packets will be dropped in the n=
etwork either way.=C2=A0</div><div>You could also say that custom game-focu=
sed implementations will just ignore the text and do their own logic as nee=
ded.</div><div><br></div><div>So I&#39;m not sure the text needs changes, I=
 just wanted to mention that it might not be optimal for the real-time gami=
ng use case and that it might be capable footgun with some weird edge cases=
 if people do stick to the text.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>With best r=
egards,</div><div>Robin</div><div><br></div><div></div><br><div class=3D"gm=
ail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, 10 Jul 2019 at 18:=
30, Nick Banks &lt;nibanks=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.o=
rg">40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid r=
gb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_-8889772208090244046WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">My preference would also be to support flow control =
for the IDs. Though, I still think that the IDs by themselves have merit. A=
s Tommy has said, you can think of a datagram ID on a given connection as p=
retty much the same thing as a UDP
 port for an IP address. If both sides know before hand what port to use, e=
verything is fine.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- Nick <u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-=
top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> QUIC &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bounces=
@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; <b>On Behalf Of =
</b>
Tommy Pauly<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, July 10, 2019 9:12 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Ian Swett &lt;ianswett=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40google.com@dmarc.ie=
tf.org" target=3D"_blank">40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> QUIC WG &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">q=
uic@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Updated DATAGRAM -03 draft<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Jul 9, 2019, at 6:22 PM, Ian Swett &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:ianswett=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ianswett=
=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks Tommy.=C2=A0 As I&#39;ve expressed before, I&=
#39;m not a big fan of the ID field(now flow identifiers) unless they have =
clear transport level functionality.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Understood!=C2=A0<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Adding signaling for opening and closing these flows=
 seems like a stronger reason to add these IDs to the transport layer.=C2=
=A0 Have you considered splitting this draft into two or the frame type int=
o two and making the version with a flow
 identifier more full-featured?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">That&#39;s certainly an option. As it stands, the fr=
ame type with a Flow ID is already a different type value. I think if peopl=
e decide that the datagrams are mainly useful with the extra signaling bein=
g part of the transport layer, then I&#39;d
 prefer to just do that in this document, but if not, then it can be separa=
te.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Overall, I see a few different options for handling =
flow IDs:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- Remove them from the DATAGRAM transport altogether=
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- Support flow IDs in the DATAGRAM draft with more e=
xplicit tie-ins to the transport, like flow lifetime management<u></u><u></=
u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- Have a separate draft specifying how the next laye=
r above the QUIC transport should manage multiplexing of datagram flows, by=
 putting identifiers at the start of datagram payloads, and using reliable =
control stream(s) to negotiate lifetimes
 of flows<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Tommy<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Mon, Jul 8, 2019 at 11:20 AM Tommy Pauly &lt;tpau=
ly=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">40appl=
e.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none;border-bottom:none;b=
order-left:1pt solid rgb(204,204,204);padding:0in 0in 0in 6pt;margin-left:4=
.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hello all,<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We=E2=80=99ve updated the QUIC DATAGRAM draft to inc=
orporate some of the feedback we received at the side meeting in Prague. No=
tably, it clarifies:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- Guidance around datagram acknowledgements<u></u><u=
></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- Datagrams do not participate in any flow control<u=
></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">- Datagrams do participate in congestion control<u><=
/u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The remaining area of open discussion is around the =
newly re-named optional =E2=80=9Cflow identifiers=E2=80=9D. The primary arg=
ument for removing these is that applications can add identifiers onto data=
grams themselves, and the transport should not transmit
 a field that it does not do anything with. We did add some text clarifying=
 that these identifiers are essentially like UDP ports for demultiplexing, =
and pointed out some *minimal* things the transport can do to help batch tr=
ansmission of datagrams in the same
 flow and promote fate-sharing within a flow. There=E2=80=99s been some dis=
cussion on Slack of other approaches that would make these flow IDs more fi=
rst-class citizens=E2=80=94adding reliable signaling for opening and closin=
g flows, as many applications would also generally
 need some similar sort of control channel=E2=80=94but these seem a bit hea=
vy-weight. Either way, this is an area where discussion is welcome and I ex=
pect the document to change.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Best,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Tommy<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Begin forwarded message:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">=
From: </span>
</b><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><a href=3D"mailto:inte=
rnet-drafts@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a></span>=
<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">=
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-pauly-quic-datagram-03.txt</spa=
n></b><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">=
Date: </span>
</b><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">July 6, 2019 at 6:30:0=
1 PM PDT</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">=
To: </span>
</b><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">Eric Kinnear &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:ekinnear@apple.com" target=3D"_blank">ekinnear@apple.com</a>&g=
t;, David Schinazi &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;, Tommy Pauly
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tpauly@apple.com" target=3D"_blank">tpauly@apple.com=
</a>&gt;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><br>
A new version of I-D, draft-pauly-quic-datagram-03.txt<br>
has been successfully submitted by Tommy Pauly and posted to the<br>
IETF repository.<br>
<br>
Name:<span class=3D"gmail-m_-8889772208090244046gmail-m-2161425353029619216=
gmail-m-3396130755833843507apple-tab-span">
</span>draft-pauly-quic-datagram<br>
Revision:<span class=3D"gmail-m_-8889772208090244046gmail-m-216142535302961=
9216gmail-m-3396130755833843507apple-tab-span">
</span>03<br>
Title:<span class=3D"gmail-m_-8889772208090244046gmail-m-216142535302961921=
6gmail-m-3396130755833843507apple-tab-span">
</span>An Unreliable Datagram Extension to QUIC<br>
Document date:<span class=3D"gmail-m_-8889772208090244046gmail-m-2161425353=
029619216gmail-m-3396130755833843507apple-tab-span">
</span>2019-07-06<br>
Group:<span class=3D"gmail-m_-8889772208090244046gmail-m-216142535302961921=
6gmail-m-3396130755833843507apple-tab-span">
</span>Individual Submission<br>
Pages:<span class=3D"gmail-m_-8889772208090244046gmail-m-216142535302961921=
6gmail-m-3396130755833843507apple-tab-span">
</span>8<br>
URL: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<a h=
ref=3D"https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2F=
www.ietf.org%2Finternet-drafts%2Fdraft-pauly-quic-datagram-03.txt&amp;data=
=3D02%7C01%7Cnibanks%40microsoft.com%7Cc6d3ea0c350e4fe3c06408d705517895%7C7=
2f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636983719793956874&amp;sdata=3DVi=
6tqg74ZTl5s%2BG5aU1v4R4dHbSbweBuz2vSBYn6sIU%3D&amp;reserved=3D0" target=3D"=
_blank">https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-pauly-quic-datagram-03.t=
xt</a><br>
Status: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://=
nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.iet=
f.org%2Fdoc%2Fdraft-pauly-quic-datagram%2F&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Cnibanks%40m=
icrosoft.com%7Cc6d3ea0c350e4fe3c06408d705517895%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd=
011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636983719793961863&amp;sdata=3DhDx9XfQUXu5YgfkzStkR47J5dY=
YjSeoEJH4hhj9RFsk%3D&amp;reserved=3D0" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracke=
r.ietf.org/doc/draft-pauly-quic-datagram/</a><br>
Htmlized: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://nam06.safe=
links.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fd=
raft-pauly-quic-datagram-03&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Cnibanks%40microsoft.com%7C=
c6d3ea0c350e4fe3c06408d705517895%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0=
%7C636983719793966856&amp;sdata=3DfPeG461Z1OEpy2z5vgyptHWZTghaDfLLqtlByAfQN=
%2FA%3D&amp;reserved=3D0" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/dra=
ft-pauly-quic-datagram-03</a><br>
Htmlized: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://nam06.safe=
links.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdo=
c%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-pauly-quic-datagram&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Cnibanks%40microso=
ft.com%7Cc6d3ea0c350e4fe3c06408d705517895%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db4=
7%7C1%7C0%7C636983719793971846&amp;sdata=3D%2F5BpNnlBfTjXJKcIXPw0AtSI4ZnR5A=
NBy0dI8uKkhFw%3D&amp;reserved=3D0" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ie=
tf.org/doc/html/draft-pauly-quic-datagram</a><br>
Diff: =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<a href=
=3D"https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww=
.ietf.org%2Frfcdiff%3Furl2%3Ddraft-pauly-quic-datagram-03&amp;data=3D02%7C0=
1%7Cnibanks%40microsoft.com%7Cc6d3ea0c350e4fe3c06408d705517895%7C72f988bf86=
f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636983719793976837&amp;sdata=3DgEChkKf0lX7=
YYGBeMKiZPOKsN8LNerq3HURRpmzNfDc%3D&amp;reserved=3D0" target=3D"_blank">htt=
ps://www.ietf..org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-pauly-quic-datagram-03</a><br>
<br>
Abstract:<br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0This document defines an extension to the QUIC transport protoc=
ol to<br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0add support for sending and receiving unreliable datagrams over=
 a<br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0QUIC connection.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio=
n<br>
until the htmlized version and diff are available at <a href=3D"https://nam=
06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2F&a=
mp;data=3D02%7C01%7Cnibanks%40microsoft.com%7Cc6d3ea0c350e4fe3c06408d705517=
895%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636983719793981824&amp;sda=
ta=3DvoffvGDVz3PluwcN5wuAZqtflBE9zgk%2FD6wt2rfNU0M%3D&amp;reserved=3D0" tar=
get=3D"_blank">
tools.ietf.org</a>.<br>
<br>
The IETF Secretariat<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"=
 class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br><table border=3D"0" ce=
llpadding=3D"0" cellspacing=3D"0" style=3D"width:600px;vertical-align:top;f=
ont-size:12px;color:rgb(0,0,0);text-align:left;padding:0px;font-family:Verd=
ana,Geneva,sans-serif"><tbody><tr><td style=3D"font-weight:bold;font-size:1=
6px;color:rgb(231,59,43);line-height:1.1em;padding:0px;font-family:Verdana,=
Geneva,sans-serif">Robin=C2=A0Marx</td></tr><tr><td style=3D"font-family:Ve=
rdana,Geneva,sans-serif">PhD researcher - web performance</td></tr><tr><td =
style=3D"font-family:Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif">Expertise centre for Digita=
l Media</td></tr><tr><td>=C2=A0</td></tr><tr><td style=3D"font-family:Verda=
na,Geneva,sans-serif"><span style=3D"color:rgb(231,59,43);font-weight:bold;=
font-family:Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif">T</span> +32(0)11 26 84 79 - <span s=
tyle=3D"color:rgb(231,59,43);font-weight:bold">GSM</span> +32(0)497 72 86 9=
4 </td></tr><tr><td>=C2=A0</td></tr><tr><td style=3D"font-family:Verdana,Ge=
neva,sans-serif"><a href=3D"http://www.uhasselt.be" target=3D"_blank"><span=
>www.uhasselt.be</span></a></td></tr><tr><td style=3D"font-family:Verdana,G=
eneva,sans-serif">Universiteit Hasselt  -  Campus Diepenbeek</td></tr><tr><=
td style=3D"font-family:Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif">Agoralaan  Gebouw D  -  =
B-3590 Diepenbeek</td></tr><tr><td style=3D"font-family:Verdana,Geneva,sans=
-serif">Kantoor=C2=A0EDM-2.05</td></tr><tr><td>=C2=A0</td></tr><tr><td styl=
e=3D"font-family:Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif"><div style=3D"width:100%;text-a=
lign:left"><img src=3D"https://www.uhasselt.be/images/nieuwsbrief/dcm/UHass=
elt-liggend.jpg" style=3D"float: none;" alt=3D""></div></td></tr></tbody></=
table></div></div></div></div>

--00000000000072e17b058db55e2a--


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To: Robin MARX <robin.marx@uhasselt.be>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
Cc: Tommy Pauly <tpauly=40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: Updated DATAGRAM -03 draft
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On 7/15/2019 3:03 AM, Robin MARX wrote:
> Hello Tommy,
>
> Good to see the updated draft.
> I do wonder about the decision to enforce congestion control for
> DATAGRAM frames and the effect this will have on the gaming use case.=C2=
=A0
> As also discussed in Prague, real-time gaming often requires a set
> update rate frequency (e.g., 30-60 messages per second) for
> responsiveness.=C2=A0
> I wonder if congestion controlling the frames (e.g., delaying/dropping
> them) will produce some weird edge cases that really mess with this
> setup.=C2=A0
> It's a bit difficult to assess because the messages are usually
> relatively small (though they could be mixed with larger messages,
> e.g., RPCs) and you could make the argument that, if there is actual
> congestion, the packets will be dropped in the network either way.=C2=A0=

> You could also say that custom game-focused implementations will just
> ignore the text and do their own logic as needed.
>
> So I'm not sure the text needs changes, I just wanted to mention that
> it might not be optimal for the real-time gaming use case and that it
> might be capable footgun with some weird edge cases if people do stick
> to the text.


Not really. If the network is congested and the video game still
persists sending frequent messages the most likely outcome will be
queuing and losses, and thus bad game play. The proper behavior in a
congested network is to switch to a low bandwidth mode of some kind --
maybe a lower frame rate, or a lower resolution. This is pretty much the
same issue as voice or video over IP: if the network is congested, it
makes sense to use a higher compression rate. With congestion control,
the application can detect the upset of congestion and adopt these
strategies. That's generally much better than to just passively accept
queues and losses.

-- Christian Huitema



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Subject: Re: Updated DATAGRAM -03 draft
To: QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>,  Robin MARX <robin.marx@uhasselt.be>
Cc: Tommy Pauly <tpauly=40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
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--000000000000734903058dbd0961
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You could also carry two connections, one for video and one for game status
updates.

I=E2=80=99m wondering if there is, or should be, a way to accomplish this o=
n a
single connection.
I asked something similar a long time ago and I don=E2=80=99t think there i=
s any
amition for managing bandwidth in this for on a single connection, at least
for QUIC v1.


On 15 July 2019 at 21.04.58, Christian Huitema (huitema@huitema.net) wrote:


On 7/15/2019 3:03 AM, Robin MARX wrote:
> Hello Tommy,
>
> Good to see the updated draft.
> I do wonder about the decision to enforce congestion control for
> DATAGRAM frames and the effect this will have on the gaming use case.
> As also discussed in Prague, real-time gaming often requires a set
> update rate frequency (e.g., 30-60 messages per second) for
> responsiveness.
> I wonder if congestion controlling the frames (e.g., delaying/dropping
> them) will produce some weird edge cases that really mess with this
> setup.
> It's a bit difficult to assess because the messages are usually
> relatively small (though they could be mixed with larger messages,
> e.g., RPCs) and you could make the argument that, if there is actual
> congestion, the packets will be dropped in the network either way.
> You could also say that custom game-focused implementations will just
> ignore the text and do their own logic as needed.
>
> So I'm not sure the text needs changes, I just wanted to mention that
> it might not be optimal for the real-time gaming use case and that it
> might be capable footgun with some weird edge cases if people do stick
> to the text.


Not really. If the network is congested and the video game still
persists sending frequent messages the most likely outcome will be
queuing and losses, and thus bad game play. The proper behavior in a
congested network is to switch to a low bandwidth mode of some kind --
maybe a lower frame rate, or a lower resolution. This is pretty much the
same issue as voice or video over IP: if the network is congested, it
makes sense to use a higher compression rate. With congestion control,
the application can detect the upset of congestion and adopt these
strategies. That's generally much better than to just passively accept
queues and losses.

-- Christian Huitema

--000000000000734903058dbd0961
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">You could also carry=
 two connections, one for video and one for game status updates.</div><div =
id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px=
;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bl=
oop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:r=
gba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">I=E2=80=99m wondering if there =
is, or should be, a way to accomplish this on a single connection.</div><di=
v id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13=
px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">I asked something sim=
ilar a long time ago and I don=E2=80=99t think there is any amition for man=
aging bandwidth in this for on a single connection, at least for QUIC v1.</=
div> <div id=3D"bloop_sign_1563217806308105984" class=3D"bloop_sign"><div s=
tyle=3D"font-family:helvetica,arial;font-size:13px"><br></div></div> <br><p=
 class=3D"airmail_on">On 15 July 2019 at 21.04.58, Christian Huitema (<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:huitema@huitema.net">huitema@huitema.net</a>) wrote:</p> <bloc=
kquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq"><span><div><div></div><div>
<br>On 7/15/2019 3:03 AM, Robin MARX wrote:
<br>&gt; Hello Tommy,
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; Good to see the updated draft.
<br>&gt; I do wonder about the decision to enforce congestion control for
<br>&gt; DATAGRAM frames and the effect this will have on the gaming use ca=
se.=C2=A0
<br>&gt; As also discussed in Prague, real-time gaming often requires a set
<br>&gt; update rate frequency (e.g., 30-60 messages per second) for
<br>&gt; responsiveness.=C2=A0
<br>&gt; I wonder if congestion controlling the frames (e.g., delaying/drop=
ping
<br>&gt; them) will produce some weird edge cases that really mess with thi=
s
<br>&gt; setup.=C2=A0
<br>&gt; It&#39;s a bit difficult to assess because the messages are usuall=
y
<br>&gt; relatively small (though they could be mixed with larger messages,
<br>&gt; e.g., RPCs) and you could make the argument that, if there is actu=
al
<br>&gt; congestion, the packets will be dropped in the network either way.=
=C2=A0
<br>&gt; You could also say that custom game-focused implementations will j=
ust
<br>&gt; ignore the text and do their own logic as needed.
<br>&gt;
<br>&gt; So I&#39;m not sure the text needs changes, I just wanted to menti=
on that
<br>&gt; it might not be optimal for the real-time gaming use case and that=
 it
<br>&gt; might be capable footgun with some weird edge cases if people do s=
tick
<br>&gt; to the text.
<br>
<br>
<br>Not really. If the network is congested and the video game still
<br>persists sending frequent messages the most likely outcome will be
<br>queuing and losses, and thus bad game play. The proper behavior in a
<br>congested network is to switch to a low bandwidth mode of some kind --
<br>maybe a lower frame rate, or a lower resolution. This is pretty much th=
e
<br>same issue as voice or video over IP: if the network is congested, it
<br>makes sense to use a higher compression rate. With congestion control,
<br>the application can detect the upset of congestion and adopt these
<br>strategies. That&#39;s generally much better than to just passively acc=
ept
<br>queues and losses.
<br>
<br>-- Christian Huitema
<br>
<br>
<br></div></div></span></blockquote></body></html>

--000000000000734903058dbd0961--


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Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 06:56:40 +1000
From: "Martin Thomson" <mt@lowentropy.net>
To: quic@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Updated DATAGRAM -03 draft
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On Tue, Jul 16, 2019, at 05:12, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen wrote:=

> You could also carry two connections, one for video and one for game=20=

> status updates.
>=20
> I=E2=80=99m wondering if there is, or should be, a way to accomplish t=
his on a=20
> single connection.

The effective use of priority is difficult, but it should allow for mixe=
d use of the one connection.  The two-connection case is just this, exce=
pt that it relies on the congestion controller of each connection to man=
age contention.  If you have decent prioritization, two connections is s=
trictly worse than one.


From nobody Mon Jul 15 15:23:42 2019
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From: Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>
To: =?Windows-1252?Q?Mikkel_Fahn=F8e_J=F8rgensen?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>, "QUIC WG" <quic@ietf.org>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, Robin MARX <robin.marx@uhasselt.be>
CC: Tommy Pauly <tpauly=40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Updated DATAGRAM -03 draft
Thread-Topic: Updated DATAGRAM -03 draft
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Using two connections would be unfortunate-- this will almost always guaran=
tee worse results than even the most simple proportional prioritization or =
fair-share scheduling because you can cause self contention and dilute your=
 measurement accuracy.

-=3DR
________________________________
From: QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Mikkel Fahn=F8e J=F8rgensen=
 <mikkelfj@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, July 15, 2019 12:12:09 PM
To: QUIC WG; Christian Huitema; Robin MARX
Cc: Tommy Pauly
Subject: Re: Updated DATAGRAM -03 draft

You could also carry two connections, one for video and one for game status=
 updates.

I=92m wondering if there is, or should be, a way to accomplish this on a si=
ngle connection.
I asked something similar a long time ago and I don=92t think there is any =
amition for managing bandwidth in this for on a single connection, at least=
 for QUIC v1.



On 15 July 2019 at 21.04.58, Christian Huitema (huitema@huitema.net<mailto:=
huitema@huitema.net>) wrote:

On 7/15/2019 3:03 AM, Robin MARX wrote:
> Hello Tommy,
>
> Good to see the updated draft.
> I do wonder about the decision to enforce congestion control for
> DATAGRAM frames and the effect this will have on the gaming use case.
> As also discussed in Prague, real-time gaming often requires a set
> update rate frequency (e.g., 30-60 messages per second) for
> responsiveness.
> I wonder if congestion controlling the frames (e.g., delaying/dropping
> them) will produce some weird edge cases that really mess with this
> setup.
> It's a bit difficult to assess because the messages are usually
> relatively small (though they could be mixed with larger messages,
> e.g., RPCs) and you could make the argument that, if there is actual
> congestion, the packets will be dropped in the network either way.
> You could also say that custom game-focused implementations will just
> ignore the text and do their own logic as needed.
>
> So I'm not sure the text needs changes, I just wanted to mention that
> it might not be optimal for the real-time gaming use case and that it
> might be capable footgun with some weird edge cases if people do stick
> to the text.


Not really. If the network is congested and the video game still
persists sending frequent messages the most likely outcome will be
queuing and losses, and thus bad game play. The proper behavior in a
congested network is to switch to a low bandwidth mode of some kind --
maybe a lower frame rate, or a lower resolution. This is pretty much the
same issue as voice or video over IP: if the network is congested, it
makes sense to use a higher compression rate. With congestion control,
the application can detect the upset of congestion and adopt these
strategies. That's generally much better than to just passively accept
queues and losses.

-- Christian Huitema



--_000_CY4PR15MB1542BBF479C310E861C733F0CDCF0CY4PR15MB1542namp_
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-1=
252">
<style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>
</head>
<body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-fami=
ly: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">
Using two connections would be unfortunate-- this will almost always guaran=
tee worse results than even the most simple proportional prioritization or =
fair-share scheduling because you can cause self contention and dilute your=
 measurement accuracy.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-fami=
ly: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">
-=3DR<span id=3D"OutlookSignature"></span><br>
</div>
<hr style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%" tabindex=3D"-1">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" st=
yle=3D"font-size:11pt" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> QUIC &lt;quic-bounces=
@ietf.org&gt; on behalf of Mikkel Fahn=F8e J=F8rgensen &lt;mikkelfj@gmail.c=
om&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, July 15, 2019 12:12:09 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> QUIC WG; Christian Huitema; Robin MARX<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Tommy Pauly<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Updated DATAGRAM -03 draft</font>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
You could also carry two connections, one for video and one for game status=
 updates.</div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<br>
</div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
I=92m wondering if there is, or should be, a way to accomplish this on a si=
ngle connection.</div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
I asked something similar a long time ago and I don=92t think there is any =
amition for managing bandwidth in this for on a single connection, at least=
 for QUIC v1.</div>
<div id=3D"bloop_sign_1563217806308105984" class=3D"bloop_sign">
<div style=3D"font-family:helvetica,arial;font-size:13px"><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<p class=3D"airmail_on">On 15 July 2019 at 21.04.58, Christian Huitema (<a =
href=3D"mailto:huitema@huitema.net">huitema@huitema.net</a>) wrote:</p>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq"><span>
<div>
<div></div>
<div><br>
On 7/15/2019 3:03 AM, Robin MARX wrote: <br>
&gt; Hello Tommy, <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Good to see the updated draft. <br>
&gt; I do wonder about the decision to enforce congestion control for <br>
&gt; DATAGRAM frames and the effect this will have on the gaming use case.&=
nbsp; <br>
&gt; As also discussed in Prague, real-time gaming often requires a set <br=
>
&gt; update rate frequency (e.g., 30-60 messages per second) for <br>
&gt; responsiveness.&nbsp; <br>
&gt; I wonder if congestion controlling the frames (e.g., delaying/dropping=
 <br>
&gt; them) will produce some weird edge cases that really mess with this <b=
r>
&gt; setup.&nbsp; <br>
&gt; It's a bit difficult to assess because the messages are usually <br>
&gt; relatively small (though they could be mixed with larger messages, <br=
>
&gt; e.g., RPCs) and you could make the argument that, if there is actual <=
br>
&gt; congestion, the packets will be dropped in the network either way.&nbs=
p; <br>
&gt; You could also say that custom game-focused implementations will just =
<br>
&gt; ignore the text and do their own logic as needed. <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; So I'm not sure the text needs changes, I just wanted to mention that =
<br>
&gt; it might not be optimal for the real-time gaming use case and that it =
<br>
&gt; might be capable footgun with some weird edge cases if people do stick=
 <br>
&gt; to the text. <br>
<br>
<br>
Not really. If the network is congested and the video game still <br>
persists sending frequent messages the most likely outcome will be <br>
queuing and losses, and thus bad game play. The proper behavior in a <br>
congested network is to switch to a low bandwidth mode of some kind -- <br>
maybe a lower frame rate, or a lower resolution. This is pretty much the <b=
r>
same issue as voice or video over IP: if the network is congested, it <br>
makes sense to use a higher compression rate. With congestion control, <br>
the application can detect the upset of congestion and adopt these <br>
strategies. That's generally much better than to just passively accept <br>
queues and losses. <br>
<br>
-- Christian Huitema <br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</span></blockquote>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2019 22:25:12 -0400
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Subject: Experimental data on priorities
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When I presented slides on HTTP/3 priorities at the QUIC interim, one
consistent point was that the HTTP/3 working group wanted some experimental
evidence that an alternate scheme worked in practice.  gQUIC has always
used SPDY style priorities, FWIW, but we have no comparative data at
the moment.

I can imagine a few ways to evaluate a priority scheme, but I'd like to
know whether I have the correct ones(and relative importance).
- Application performance
- Code size/complexity
- Bytes on the wire
- Computational complexity/potential for attacks
- Reduction/change in edge cases(particularly for HTTP/3 without HoL
blocking)
- New capabilities (ie: easier for LBs/AFEs to contribute?)

*Experimentation Options*
The H2 stack at Google supports FIFO, LIFO and H2 priorities.  However,
it=E2=80=99s not currently using LOWAT and previous experiments have yielde=
d no
measurable change in performance, so H2 does not seem like a good
experiment platform.

For gQUIC, we already have an implementation of H2 priorities that we=E2=80=
=99re
not using.  We can wire up an experiment to start using them and compare to
SPDY style priorities, but given Chrome's internal priority scheme with 5
levels and translation to a linked list in H2 priorities, I believe that
would only provide information on code size/complexity and bytes on the
wire.  Application performance would only change if one of the two schemes
had an implementation bug.

Expanding Chrome=E2=80=99s usage of priorities is possible, but it=E2=80=99=
s a longer term
project and I don't know whether they'll change.

*Other data*
Most thinking about priorities is based on the idea that a page is loaded
over a single connection, but in fact, that=E2=80=99s extraordinarily rare =
as I
presented at the interim(except Wikipedia).   Would it be useful to have
more data on this from the client and/or server perspective?

We'd be happy to work with someone else on gathering data as well, assuming
the WG would find the data we're gathering more valuable than what
Chrome/Google can provide alone.

Thanks, Ian

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<div dir=3D"ltr">When I presented slides on HTTP/3 priorities at the QUIC i=
nterim, one consistent point was that the HTTP/3 working group wanted some =
experimental evidence that an alternate scheme worked in practice.=C2=A0 gQ=
UIC has always used SPDY style priorities, FWIW, but we have no comparative=
 data at the=C2=A0moment.<br><br>I can imagine a few ways to evaluate a pri=
ority scheme, but I&#39;d like to know whether I have the correct ones(and =
relative importance).<br>- Application performance<br>- Code size/complexit=
y<br>- Bytes on the wire<br>- Computational complexity/potential for attack=
s<br>- Reduction/change in edge cases(particularly for HTTP/3 without HoL b=
locking)<br>- New capabilities (ie: easier for LBs/AFEs to contribute?)<br>=
<br><b>Experimentation Options</b><br>The H2 stack at Google supports FIFO,=
 LIFO and H2 priorities.=C2=A0 However, it=E2=80=99s not currently using LO=
WAT and previous experiments have yielded no measurable change in performan=
ce, so H2 does not seem like a good experiment platform.<br><br>For gQUIC, =
we already have an implementation of H2 priorities that we=E2=80=99re not u=
sing.=C2=A0 We can wire up an experiment to start using them and compare to=
 SPDY style priorities, but given Chrome&#39;s internal priority scheme wit=
h 5 levels and translation to a linked list in H2 priorities, I believe tha=
t would only provide information on code size/complexity and bytes on the w=
ire.=C2=A0 Application performance would only change if one of the two sche=
mes had an implementation bug.<br><br>Expanding Chrome=E2=80=99s usage of p=
riorities is possible, but it=E2=80=99s a longer term project and I don&#39=
;t know whether they&#39;ll change.<br><br><b>Other data</b><br>Most thinki=
ng about priorities is based on the idea that a page is loaded over a singl=
e connection, but in fact, that=E2=80=99s extraordinarily rare as I present=
ed at the interim(except Wikipedia). =C2=A0 Would it be useful to have more=
 data on this from the client and/or server perspective?<div><br></div><div=
>We&#39;d be happy to work with someone else on gathering data as well, ass=
uming the WG would find the data we&#39;re gathering more valuable than wha=
t Chrome/Google can provide alone.</div><div><br>Thanks, Ian<br></div></div=
>

--000000000000befae1058dc316b8--


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Subject: Re: Experimental data on priorities
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Most thinking about priorities is based on the idea that a page is loaded
over a single connection, but in fact, that=E2=80=99s extraordinarily rare =
as I
presented at the interim(except Wikipedia). Would it be useful to have more
data on this from the client and/or server perspective?

Is that for historical reasons like http/1.1 opening 8 connections to load
faster? Because that shouldn=E2=80=99t be necessary with QUIC, as you surel=
y are
aware of. With H/2 it is more muddled because of HoL.

Or, is it because content is cached from other pages and previous visits?

I notice a trend towards content splitting as opposed to content bundling
that was popular a few years back. Splitting theoretically allows for
faster page loads and especially with new transports like H/2 and QUIC,
they probably don=E2=80=99t bring anything. Even on H/1.1 it would prevent =
parallel
loads over multiple connections.

Mikkel



On 16 July 2019 at 04.25.37, Ian Swett (ianswett=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.=
org)
wrote:

Most thinking about priorities is based on the idea that a page is loaded
over a single connection, but in fact, that=E2=80=99s extraordinarily rare =
as I
presented at the interim(except Wikipedia).   Would it be useful to have
more data on this from the client and/or server perspective?

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.error { color:#AA0000; }</style></head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word=
;line-break:after-white-space"><div class=3D"bloop_markdown"><blockquote>
<p>Most thinking about priorities is based on the idea that a page is loade=
d over a single connection, but in fact, that=E2=80=99s extraordinarily rar=
e as I presented at the interim(except Wikipedia). Would it be useful to ha=
ve more data on this from the client and/or server perspective?</p>
</blockquote>

<p>Is that for historical reasons like http/1.1 opening 8 connections to lo=
ad faster? Because that shouldn=E2=80=99t be necessary with QUIC, as you su=
rely are aware of. With H/2 it is more muddled because of HoL.</p>

<p>Or, is it because content is cached from other pages and previous visits=
?</p>

<p>I notice a trend towards content splitting as opposed to content bundlin=
g that was popular a few years back. Splitting theoretically allows for fas=
ter page loads and especially with new transports like H/2 and QUIC, they p=
robably don=E2=80=99t bring anything. Even on H/1.1 it would prevent parall=
el loads over multiple connections.</p>

<p>Mikkel</p>

<p></p></div><div class=3D"bloop_original_html"><style>body{font-family:Hel=
vetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"f=
ont-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;=
line-height:auto"><br></div> <br><p class=3D"airmail_on">On 16 July 2019 at=
 04.25.37, Ian Swett (<a href=3D"mailto:ianswett=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.=
org">ianswett=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>) wrote:</p> <blockquote typ=
e=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq"><span><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);fo=
nt-family:&quot;helvetica Neue&quot;,helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:no=
rmal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text=
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acing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration:none;display:in=
line!important;float:none">Most thinking about priorities is based on the i=
dea that a page is loaded over a single connection, but in fact, that=E2=80=
=99s extraordinarily rare as I presented at the interim(except Wikipedia). =
=C2=A0 Would it be useful to have more data on this from the client and/or =
server perspective?</span><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></div></s=
pan></blockquote></div><div class=3D"bloop_markdown"><p></p></div></body></=
html>

--0000000000000ae18c058dc76e75--


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Subject: Re: Experimental data on priorities
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Correction:  "and especially with new transports like H/2 and QUIC, they
probably don=E2=80=99t bring anything.=E2=80=9D

I meant to say that bunding does not bring anything, while splitting
certainly does - loads less.


On 16 July 2019 at 09.36.06, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen (mikkelfj@gm=
ail.com)
wrote:

 and especially with new transports like H/2 and QUIC, they probably don=E2=
=80=99t
bring anything.

--0000000000007ae464058dc77d6c
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<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"margin:0px">Correction:=C2=A0<span styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:&quot;helvetica Neue&quot;,helvetica;font=
-size:14px">=C2=A0&quot;</span><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:=
&quot;helvetica Neue&quot;,helvetica;font-size:14px">and especially with ne=
w transports like H/2 and QUIC, they probably don=E2=80=99t bring anything.=
</span><font face=3D"helvetica Neue, helvetica"><span style=3D"font-size:14=
px">=E2=80=9D</span></font></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font=
-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;lin=
e-height:auto"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;helvetica Neue&quot;,helvet=
ica;font-size:14px"><br></span></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"=
font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px=
;line-height:auto"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;helvetica Neue&quot;,he=
lvetica;font-size:14px">I meant to say that bunding does not bring anything=
, while splitting certainly does - loads less.</span></div><div id=3D"bloop=
_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba=
(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div> <br><p class=3D"airmail=
_on">On 16 July 2019 at 09.36.06, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen (<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com">mikkelfj@gmail.com</a>) wrote:</p> <blockqu=
ote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq"><span><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(0,=
0,0);font-family:&quot;helvetica Neue&quot;,helvetica;font-size:14px;font-s=
tyle:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:norm=
al;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;=
word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration:none;dis=
play:inline!important;float:none"><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=
=A0</span>and especially with new transports like H/2 and QUIC, they probab=
ly don=E2=80=99t bring anything.</span></div></span></blockquote></body></h=
tml>

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From: Tommy Pauly <tpauly@apple.com>
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Subject: Re: Updated DATAGRAM -03 draft
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 08:47:17 -0400
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Cc: =?utf-8?Q?Mikkel_Fahn=C3=B8e_J=C3=B8rgensen?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, Robin MARX <robin.marx@uhasselt.be>
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To: Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>
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I definitely agree that sharing one connection, where the frames are all sub=
ject to a shared congestion control, will provide the most control and the b=
est results.

What it does bring up, however, is the need for text regarding prioritizatio=
n in the document, similar to the =E2=80=9CStream Prioritization=E2=80=9D se=
ction in the main transport document. The application should be able to indi=
cate to the quic implementation the relative priority of a flow of datagrams=
 with regards to other streams and other flows, thus indicating how to sched=
ule frames when congestion control opens up. This is also a way in which hav=
ing a flow identifier known at the transport can be useful (although this id=
entifier could be used strictly locally to get a similar effect).=20

Thanks,
Tommy

> On Jul 15, 2019, at 6:23 PM, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com> wrote:
>=20
> =EF=BB=BF
> Using two connections would be unfortunate-- this will almost always guara=
ntee worse results than even the most simple proportional prioritization or f=
air-share scheduling because you can cause self contention and dilute your m=
easurement accuracy.
>=20
> -=3DR
> From: QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8=
rgensen <mikkelfj@gmail.com>
> Sent: Monday, July 15, 2019 12:12:09 PM
> To: QUIC WG; Christian Huitema; Robin MARX
> Cc: Tommy Pauly
> Subject: Re: Updated DATAGRAM -03 draft
> =20
> You could also carry two connections, one for video and one for game statu=
s updates.
>=20
> I=E2=80=99m wondering if there is, or should be, a way to accomplish this o=
n a single connection.
> I asked something similar a long time ago and I don=E2=80=99t think there i=
s any amition for managing bandwidth in this for on a single connection, at l=
east for QUIC v1.
>=20
>=20
>> On 15 July 2019 at 21.04.58, Christian Huitema (huitema@huitema.net) wrot=
e:
>>=20
>>=20
>> On 7/15/2019 3:03 AM, Robin MARX wrote:=20
>> > Hello Tommy,=20
>> >=20
>> > Good to see the updated draft.=20
>> > I do wonder about the decision to enforce congestion control for=20
>> > DATAGRAM frames and the effect this will have on the gaming use case. =20=

>> > As also discussed in Prague, real-time gaming often requires a set=20
>> > update rate frequency (e.g., 30-60 messages per second) for=20
>> > responsiveness. =20
>> > I wonder if congestion controlling the frames (e.g., delaying/dropping=20=

>> > them) will produce some weird edge cases that really mess with this=20
>> > setup. =20
>> > It's a bit difficult to assess because the messages are usually=20
>> > relatively small (though they could be mixed with larger messages,=20
>> > e.g., RPCs) and you could make the argument that, if there is actual=20=

>> > congestion, the packets will be dropped in the network either way. =20
>> > You could also say that custom game-focused implementations will just=20=

>> > ignore the text and do their own logic as needed.=20
>> >=20
>> > So I'm not sure the text needs changes, I just wanted to mention that=20=

>> > it might not be optimal for the real-time gaming use case and that it=20=

>> > might be capable footgun with some weird edge cases if people do stick=20=

>> > to the text.=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Not really. If the network is congested and the video game still=20
>> persists sending frequent messages the most likely outcome will be=20
>> queuing and losses, and thus bad game play. The proper behavior in a=20
>> congested network is to switch to a low bandwidth mode of some kind --=20=

>> maybe a lower frame rate, or a lower resolution. This is pretty much the=20=

>> same issue as voice or video over IP: if the network is congested, it=20
>> makes sense to use a higher compression rate. With congestion control,=20=

>> the application can detect the upset of congestion and adopt these=20
>> strategies. That's generally much better than to just passively accept=20=

>> queues and losses.=20
>>=20
>> -- Christian Huitema=20
>>=20
>>=20

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto" role=3D"textbox" aria-label=3D"Message Body=
"><div dir=3D"ltr">I definitely agree that sharing one connection, where the=
 frames are all subject to a shared congestion control, will provide the mos=
t control and the best results.</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"=
ltr">What it does bring up, however, is the need for text regarding prioriti=
zation in the document, similar to the =E2=80=9CStream Prioritization=E2=80=9D=
 section in the main transport document. The application should be able to i=
ndicate to the quic implementation the relative priority of a flow of datagr=
ams with regards to other streams and other flows, thus indicating how to sc=
hedule frames when congestion control opens up. This is also a way in which h=
aving a flow identifier known at the transport can be useful (although this i=
dentifier could be used strictly locally to get a similar effect).&nbsp;</di=
v><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">Thanks,</div><div dir=3D"ltr">=
Tommy</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">On Jul 15, 2019, a=
t 6:23 PM, Roberto Peon &lt;fenix@fb.com&gt; wrote:<br><br></blockquote></di=
v><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF

<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-12=
52">
<style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>


<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-famil=
y: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">
Using two connections would be unfortunate-- this will almost always guarant=
ee worse results than even the most simple proportional prioritization or fa=
ir-share scheduling because you can cause self contention and dilute your me=
asurement accuracy.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-famil=
y: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">
-=3DR<span id=3D"OutlookSignature"></span><br>
</div>
<hr style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%" tabindex=3D"-1">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" sty=
le=3D"font-size:11pt" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> QUIC &lt;quic-bounces@i=
etf.org&gt; on behalf of Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen &lt;mikkelfj@gmai=
l.com&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, July 15, 2019 12:12:09 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> QUIC WG; Christian Huitema; Robin MARX<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Tommy Pauly<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Updated DATAGRAM -03 draft</font>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:=
13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
You could also carry two connections, one for video and one for game status u=
pdates.</div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:=
13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
<br>
</div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:=
13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
I=E2=80=99m wondering if there is, or should be, a way to accomplish this on=
 a single connection.</div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:=
13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">
I asked something similar a long time ago and I don=E2=80=99t think there is=
 any amition for managing bandwidth in this for on a single connection, at l=
east for QUIC v1.</div>
<div id=3D"bloop_sign_1563217806308105984" class=3D"bloop_sign">
<div style=3D"font-family:helvetica,arial;font-size:13px"><br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<p class=3D"airmail_on">On 15 July 2019 at 21.04.58, Christian Huitema (<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:huitema@huitema.net">huitema@huitema.net</a>) wrote:</p>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq"><span>
<div>
<div></div>
<div><br>
On 7/15/2019 3:03 AM, Robin MARX wrote: <br>
&gt; Hello Tommy, <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Good to see the updated draft. <br>
&gt; I do wonder about the decision to enforce congestion control for <br>
&gt; DATAGRAM frames and the effect this will have on the gaming use case.&n=
bsp; <br>
&gt; As also discussed in Prague, real-time gaming often requires a set <br>=

&gt; update rate frequency (e.g., 30-60 messages per second) for <br>
&gt; responsiveness.&nbsp; <br>
&gt; I wonder if congestion controlling the frames (e.g., delaying/dropping <=
br>
&gt; them) will produce some weird edge cases that really mess with this <br=
>
&gt; setup.&nbsp; <br>
&gt; It's a bit difficult to assess because the messages are usually <br>
&gt; relatively small (though they could be mixed with larger messages, <br>=

&gt; e.g., RPCs) and you could make the argument that, if there is actual <b=
r>
&gt; congestion, the packets will be dropped in the network either way.&nbsp=
; <br>
&gt; You could also say that custom game-focused implementations will just <=
br>
&gt; ignore the text and do their own logic as needed. <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; So I'm not sure the text needs changes, I just wanted to mention that <=
br>
&gt; it might not be optimal for the real-time gaming use case and that it <=
br>
&gt; might be capable footgun with some weird edge cases if people do stick <=
br>
&gt; to the text. <br>
<br>
<br>
Not really. If the network is congested and the video game still <br>
persists sending frequent messages the most likely outcome will be <br>
queuing and losses, and thus bad game play. The proper behavior in a <br>
congested network is to switch to a low bandwidth mode of some kind -- <br>
maybe a lower frame rate, or a lower resolution. This is pretty much the <br=
>
same issue as voice or video over IP: if the network is congested, it <br>
makes sense to use a higher compression rate. With congestion control, <br>
the application can detect the upset of congestion and adopt these <br>
strategies. That's generally much better than to just passively accept <br>
queues and losses. <br>
<br>
-- Christian Huitema <br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</span></blockquote>
</div>


</div></blockquote></body></html>=

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From: Patrick Meenan <patmeenan@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2019 09:00:47 -0400
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Subject: Re: Experimental data on priorities
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--000000000000cbc042058dcbf767
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
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Lucas can speak to the current state of deployment at Cloudflare but the
scheme we deployed mirrors the current proposal well enough that the
results should apply. It's a little different because the prioritization
isn't originating from the client but it is being applied as if it was.

Cloudflare has ample evidence that "it works" at least in place of HTTP/2's
scheme over TCP and compares well to a well-implemented HTTP/2 client (when
serving web content to browsers anyway). Where the really big gains came
into play were in overriding the client-requested prioritization from
Safari and Edge and applying something that looks more like a mix of Chrome
and Firefox (sequential critical assets, interleaved images). In that case
it worked much better than HTTP/2 but it was because of the specific client
HTTP/2 priority schemes and the bulk of the gains came from applying better
sequencing server-side (though the ability to make server-side decisions
was a huge benefit of the scheme).  It also works well enough that the new
scheme is applied independent of the client so Chrome and Firefox also
don't regress.

Given that you can represent the proposed scheme in it's entirety with the
HTTP/2 schemes, I'm not sure you'll ever see an application performance
gain if you are using the same client and applying the exact same scheme to
both modes.  That said, the code complexity may prevent some features from
being implemented in the tree that could be added fairly easily to the new
scheme. The one that comes to mind for Chrome in particular is to enable
interleaving of image data instead of delivering them sequentially. With
the new scheme it's pretty much just carrying a bit through the stack to
indicate that the given fetch should be interleaved and it can be mixed in
to the serialized priorities trivially. Doing the same with the full HTTP/2
tree would be considerably more complex.

On Mon, Jul 15, 2019 at 10:29 PM Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com> wrote:

> When I presented slides on HTTP/3 priorities at the QUIC interim, one
> consistent point was that the HTTP/3 working group wanted some experiment=
al
> evidence that an alternate scheme worked in practice.  gQUIC has always
> used SPDY style priorities, FWIW, but we have no comparative data at
> the moment.
>
> I can imagine a few ways to evaluate a priority scheme, but I'd like to
> know whether I have the correct ones(and relative importance).
> - Application performance
> - Code size/complexity
> - Bytes on the wire
> - Computational complexity/potential for attacks
> - Reduction/change in edge cases(particularly for HTTP/3 without HoL
> blocking)
> - New capabilities (ie: easier for LBs/AFEs to contribute?)
>
> *Experimentation Options*
> The H2 stack at Google supports FIFO, LIFO and H2 priorities.  However,
> it=E2=80=99s not currently using LOWAT and previous experiments have yiel=
ded no
> measurable change in performance, so H2 does not seem like a good
> experiment platform.
>
> For gQUIC, we already have an implementation of H2 priorities that we=E2=
=80=99re
> not using.  We can wire up an experiment to start using them and compare =
to
> SPDY style priorities, but given Chrome's internal priority scheme with 5
> levels and translation to a linked list in H2 priorities, I believe that
> would only provide information on code size/complexity and bytes on the
> wire.  Application performance would only change if one of the two scheme=
s
> had an implementation bug.
>
> Expanding Chrome=E2=80=99s usage of priorities is possible, but it=E2=80=
=99s a longer term
> project and I don't know whether they'll change.
>
> *Other data*
> Most thinking about priorities is based on the idea that a page is loaded
> over a single connection, but in fact, that=E2=80=99s extraordinarily rar=
e as I
> presented at the interim(except Wikipedia).   Would it be useful to have
> more data on this from the client and/or server perspective?
>
> We'd be happy to work with someone else on gathering data as well,
> assuming the WG would find the data we're gathering more valuable than wh=
at
> Chrome/Google can provide alone.
>
> Thanks, Ian
>

--000000000000cbc042058dcbf767
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Lucas can speak to the current state of deployment at Clou=
dflare but the scheme we deployed mirrors the current proposal well enough =
that the results should apply. It&#39;s a little different because the prio=
ritization isn&#39;t originating from the client but it is being applied as=
 if it was.=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>Cloudflare has ample evidence that &qu=
ot;it works&quot; at least in place of HTTP/2&#39;s scheme over TCP and com=
pares well to a well-implemented HTTP/2 client (when serving web content to=
 browsers anyway). Where the really big gains came into play were in overri=
ding the client-requested prioritization from Safari and Edge and applying =
something that looks more like a mix of Chrome and Firefox (sequential crit=
ical assets, interleaved images). In that case it worked much better than H=
TTP/2 but it was because of the specific client HTTP/2 priority schemes and=
 the bulk of the gains came from applying better sequencing server-side (th=
ough the ability to make server-side decisions was a huge benefit of the sc=
heme).=C2=A0 It also works well enough that the new scheme is applied indep=
endent of the client so Chrome and Firefox also don&#39;t regress.</div><di=
v><br></div><div>Given that you can represent the proposed scheme in it&#39=
;s entirety with the HTTP/2 schemes, I&#39;m not sure you&#39;ll ever see a=
n application performance gain if you are using the same client and applyin=
g the exact same scheme to both modes.=C2=A0 That said, the code complexity=
 may prevent some features from being implemented in the tree that could be=
 added fairly easily to the new scheme. The one that comes to mind for Chro=
me in particular is to enable interleaving of image data instead of deliver=
ing them sequentially. With the new scheme it&#39;s pretty much just carryi=
ng a bit through the stack to indicate that the given fetch should be inter=
leaved and it can be mixed in to the serialized priorities trivially. Doing=
 the same with the full HTTP/2 tree would be considerably more complex.</di=
v></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr=
">On Mon, Jul 15, 2019 at 10:29 PM Ian Swett &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ianswett=
@google.com">ianswett@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">When I presented slides o=
n HTTP/3 priorities at the QUIC interim, one consistent point was that the =
HTTP/3 working group wanted some experimental evidence that an alternate sc=
heme worked in practice.=C2=A0 gQUIC has always used SPDY style priorities,=
 FWIW, but we have no comparative data at the=C2=A0moment.<br><br>I can ima=
gine a few ways to evaluate a priority scheme, but I&#39;d like to know whe=
ther I have the correct ones(and relative importance).<br>- Application per=
formance<br>- Code size/complexity<br>- Bytes on the wire<br>- Computationa=
l complexity/potential for attacks<br>- Reduction/change in edge cases(part=
icularly for HTTP/3 without HoL blocking)<br>- New capabilities (ie: easier=
 for LBs/AFEs to contribute?)<br><br><b>Experimentation Options</b><br>The =
H2 stack at Google supports FIFO, LIFO and H2 priorities.=C2=A0 However, it=
=E2=80=99s not currently using LOWAT and previous experiments have yielded =
no measurable change in performance, so H2 does not seem like a good experi=
ment platform.<br><br>For gQUIC, we already have an implementation of H2 pr=
iorities that we=E2=80=99re not using.=C2=A0 We can wire up an experiment t=
o start using them and compare to SPDY style priorities, but given Chrome&#=
39;s internal priority scheme with 5 levels and translation to a linked lis=
t in H2 priorities, I believe that would only provide information on code s=
ize/complexity and bytes on the wire.=C2=A0 Application performance would o=
nly change if one of the two schemes had an implementation bug.<br><br>Expa=
nding Chrome=E2=80=99s usage of priorities is possible, but it=E2=80=99s a =
longer term project and I don&#39;t know whether they&#39;ll change.<br><br=
><b>Other data</b><br>Most thinking about priorities is based on the idea t=
hat a page is loaded over a single connection, but in fact, that=E2=80=99s =
extraordinarily rare as I presented at the interim(except Wikipedia). =C2=
=A0 Would it be useful to have more data on this from the client and/or ser=
ver perspective?<div><br></div><div>We&#39;d be happy to work with someone =
else on gathering data as well, assuming the WG would find the data we&#39;=
re gathering more valuable than what Chrome/Google can provide alone.</div>=
<div><br>Thanks, Ian<br></div></div>
</blockquote></div>

--000000000000cbc042058dcbf767--


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From: Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>
To: Tommy Pauly <tpauly@apple.com>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>
CC: =?utf-8?B?TWlra2VsIEZhaG7DuGUgSsO4cmdlbnNlbg==?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>, QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, Robin MARX <robin.marx@uhasselt.be>, Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>
Subject: RE: Updated DATAGRAM -03 draft
Thread-Topic: Updated DATAGRAM -03 draft
Thread-Index: AQHVPAi5RGl8N8lyN0SYGyNU0RUUwKbOVJ+w
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 06:31:03 +0000
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+1.=20

In the general non-QoS scenario it is to prefer that the streams share =
one connection and thus one congestion control.=20

=20

My experiments with SCReAM (RFC8298) shows that this can be made to work =
quite well on RTP streams, an implementation of this is found at  =
<https://github.com/EricssonResearch/scream> =
https://github.com/EricssonResearch/scream. It is however not =
straightforward to get perfect prioritization such as 70% of the =
bandwidth goes to stream A and 30% to stream B when it comes to =
real-time low latency media. The key reason is that the low latency goal =
means that there are often no packets to schedule as extra delay due to =
queueing in the sender should be avoided, variations on source rates =
from video encoder makes it more challenging.=20

In comparison, =E2=80=9CInfinite=E2=80=9D bitrate sources such as file =
transfers are much easier to work with as they provide data ready to =
schedule for transmission on the sender side until the file transfer is =
done.

In the SCReAM case I have so far managed to get something like ball-park =
weighted fairness, fig 7 in  =
<https://www.hindawi.com/journals/wcmc/2018/3142496/> =
https://www.hindawi.com/journals/wcmc/2018/3142496/ shows how it works =
in a real test scenario over a LTE access.=20

=20

I mentioned non-QoS scenarios. In scenarios where an underlying network =
supports QoS (such as 4G/5G), then it can be beneficial to use two or =
more connections, which are then scheduled over different bearers.

=20

/Ingemar

=20

From: Tommy Pauly <tpauly@apple.com>=20
Sent: den 16 juli 2019 14:47
To: Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>
Cc: Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen <mikkelfj@gmail.com>; QUIC WG =
<quic@ietf.org>; Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>; Robin MARX =
<robin.marx@uhasselt.be>
Subject: Re: Updated DATAGRAM -03 draft

=20

I definitely agree that sharing one connection, where the frames are all =
subject to a shared congestion control, will provide the most control =
and the best results.

=20

What it does bring up, however, is the need for text regarding =
prioritization in the document, similar to the =E2=80=9CStream =
Prioritization=E2=80=9D section in the main transport document. The =
application should be able to indicate to the quic implementation the =
relative priority of a flow of datagrams with regards to other streams =
and other flows, thus indicating how to schedule frames when congestion =
control opens up. This is also a way in which having a flow identifier =
known at the transport can be useful (although this identifier could be =
used strictly locally to get a similar effect).=20

=20

Thanks,

Tommy





On Jul 15, 2019, at 6:23 PM, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com =
<mailto:fenix@fb.com> > wrote:

=EF=BB=BF=20

Using two connections would be unfortunate-- this will almost always =
guarantee worse results than even the most simple proportional =
prioritization or fair-share scheduling because you can cause self =
contention and dilute your measurement accuracy.

-=3DR

  _____ =20

From: QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org> > on =
behalf of Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen <mikkelfj@gmail.com =
<mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com> >
Sent: Monday, July 15, 2019 12:12:09 PM
To: QUIC WG; Christian Huitema; Robin MARX
Cc: Tommy Pauly
Subject: Re: Updated DATAGRAM -03 draft=20

=20

You could also carry two connections, one for video and one for game =
status updates.

=20

I=E2=80=99m wondering if there is, or should be, a way to accomplish =
this on a single connection.

I asked something similar a long time ago and I don=E2=80=99t think =
there is any amition for managing bandwidth in this for on a single =
connection, at least for QUIC v1.

=20

=20

On 15 July 2019 at 21.04.58, Christian Huitema (huitema@huitema.net =
<mailto:huitema@huitema.net> ) wrote:


On 7/15/2019 3:03 AM, Robin MARX wrote:=20
> Hello Tommy,=20
>=20
> Good to see the updated draft.=20
> I do wonder about the decision to enforce congestion control for=20
> DATAGRAM frames and the effect this will have on the gaming use case.  =

> As also discussed in Prague, real-time gaming often requires a set=20
> update rate frequency (e.g., 30-60 messages per second) for=20
> responsiveness. =20
> I wonder if congestion controlling the frames (e.g., delaying/dropping =

> them) will produce some weird edge cases that really mess with this=20
> setup. =20
> It's a bit difficult to assess because the messages are usually=20
> relatively small (though they could be mixed with larger messages,=20
> e.g., RPCs) and you could make the argument that, if there is actual=20
> congestion, the packets will be dropped in the network either way. =20
> You could also say that custom game-focused implementations will just=20
> ignore the text and do their own logic as needed.=20
>=20
> So I'm not sure the text needs changes, I just wanted to mention that=20
> it might not be optimal for the real-time gaming use case and that it=20
> might be capable footgun with some weird edge cases if people do stick =

> to the text.=20


Not really. If the network is congested and the video game still=20
persists sending frequent messages the most likely outcome will be=20
queuing and losses, and thus bad game play. The proper behavior in a=20
congested network is to switch to a low bandwidth mode of some kind --=20
maybe a lower frame rate, or a lower resolution. This is pretty much the =

same issue as voice or video over IP: if the network is congested, it=20
makes sense to use a higher compression rate. With congestion control,=20
the application can detect the upset of congestion and adopt these=20
strategies. That's generally much better than to just passively accept=20
queues and losses.=20

-- Christian Huitema=20




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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DSV link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>+1. =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>In the general non-QoS scenario it =
is to prefer that the streams share one connection and thus one =
congestion control. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>My experiments with SCReAM =
(RFC8298) shows that this can be made to work quite well on RTP streams, =
an implementation of this is found at </span><a =
href=3D"https://github.com/EricssonResearch/scream"><span =
lang=3DEN-US>https://github.com/EricssonResearch/scream</span></a><span =
lang=3DEN-US style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>. It is however not =
straightforward to get perfect prioritization such as 70% of the =
bandwidth goes to stream A and 30% to stream B when it comes to =
real-time low latency media. The key reason is that the low latency goal =
means that there are often no packets to schedule as extra delay due to =
queueing in the sender should be avoided, variations on source rates =
from video encoder makes it more challenging. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>In comparison, =
=E2=80=9CInfinite=E2=80=9D bitrate sources such as file transfers are =
much easier to work with as they provide data ready to schedule for =
transmission on the sender side until the file transfer is =
done.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>In the SCReAM case I have so far =
managed to get something like ball-park weighted fairness, fig 7 in =
</span><a =
href=3D"https://www.hindawi.com/journals/wcmc/2018/3142496/"><span =
lang=3DEN-US>https://www.hindawi.com/journals/wcmc/2018/3142496/</span></=
a> <span lang=3DEN-US>shows how it works in a real test scenario over a =
LTE access. </span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>=C2=A0<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>I mentioned =
non-QoS scenarios. </span><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>In scenarios where an underlying =
network supports QoS (such as 4G/5G), then it can be beneficial to use =
two or more connections, which are then scheduled over different =
bearers.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>/Ingemar<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US =
style=3D'mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
lang=3DEN-US>From:</span></b><span lang=3DEN-US> Tommy Pauly =
&lt;tpauly@apple.com&gt; <br><b>Sent:</b> den 16 juli 2019 =
14:47<br><b>To:</b> Roberto Peon &lt;fenix@fb.com&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b> =
Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen &lt;mikkelfj@gmail.com&gt;; QUIC WG =
&lt;quic@ietf.org&gt;; Christian Huitema &lt;huitema@huitema.net&gt;; =
Robin MARX &lt;robin.marx@uhasselt.be&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: Updated =
DATAGRAM -03 draft<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
definitely agree that sharing one connection, where the frames are all =
subject to a shared congestion control, will provide the most control =
and the best results.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>What it does bring up, however, is the need for text =
regarding prioritization in the document, similar to the =E2=80=9CStream =
Prioritization=E2=80=9D section in the main transport document. The =
application should be able to indicate to the quic implementation the =
relative priority of a flow of datagrams with regards to other streams =
and other flows, thus indicating how to schedule frames when congestion =
control opens up. This is also a way in which having a flow identifier =
known at the transport can be useful (although this identifier could be =
used strictly locally to get a similar =
effect).&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Tommy<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>On Jul 15, 2019, at 6:23 PM, Roberto Peon =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.com">fenix@fb.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>=EF=BB=BF <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>Using two =
connections would be unfortunate-- this will almost always guarantee =
worse results than even the most simple proportional prioritization or =
fair-share scheduling because you can cause self contention and dilute =
your measurement accuracy.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black'>-=3DR<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p></div><div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'text-align:center'><hr size=3D3 width=3D"98%" =
align=3Dcenter></div><div id=3DdivRplyFwdMsg><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'color:black'>From:</span></b><span =
style=3D'color:black'> QUIC &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org">quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on =
behalf of Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com">mikkelfj@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Sent:=
</b> Monday, July 15, 2019 12:12:09 PM<br><b>To:</b> QUIC WG; Christian =
Huitema; Robin MARX<br><b>Cc:</b> Tommy Pauly<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: =
Updated DATAGRAM -03 draft</span> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div =
id=3D"bloop_customfont"><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>You could =
also carry two connections, one for video and one for game status =
updates.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont"><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></span></p></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont"><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>I=E2=80=99m=
 wondering if there is, or should be, a way to accomplish this on a =
single connection.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div =
id=3D"bloop_customfont"><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>I asked =
something similar a long time ago and I don=E2=80=99t think there is any =
amition for managing bandwidth in this for on a single connection, at =
least for QUIC v1.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div =
id=3D"bloop_sign_1563217806308105984"><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></span></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3Dairmailon>On 15 July =
2019 at 21.04.58, Christian Huitema (<a =
href=3D"mailto:huitema@huitema.net">huitema@huitema.net</a>) =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>On 7/15/2019 3:03 =
AM, Robin MARX wrote: <br>&gt; Hello Tommy, <br>&gt; <br>&gt; Good to =
see the updated draft. <br>&gt; I do wonder about the decision to =
enforce congestion control for <br>&gt; DATAGRAM frames and the effect =
this will have on the gaming use case.&nbsp; <br>&gt; As also discussed =
in Prague, real-time gaming often requires a set <br>&gt; update rate =
frequency (e.g., 30-60 messages per second) for <br>&gt; =
responsiveness.&nbsp; <br>&gt; I wonder if congestion controlling the =
frames (e.g., delaying/dropping <br>&gt; them) will produce some weird =
edge cases that really mess with this <br>&gt; setup.&nbsp; <br>&gt; =
It's a bit difficult to assess because the messages are usually <br>&gt; =
relatively small (though they could be mixed with larger messages, =
<br>&gt; e.g., RPCs) and you could make the argument that, if there is =
actual <br>&gt; congestion, the packets will be dropped in the network =
either way.&nbsp; <br>&gt; You could also say that custom game-focused =
implementations will just <br>&gt; ignore the text and do their own =
logic as needed. <br>&gt; <br>&gt; So I'm not sure the text needs =
changes, I just wanted to mention that <br>&gt; it might not be optimal =
for the real-time gaming use case and that it <br>&gt; might be capable =
footgun with some weird edge cases if people do stick <br>&gt; to the =
text. <br><br><br>Not really. If the network is congested and the video =
game still <br>persists sending frequent messages the most likely =
outcome will be <br>queuing and losses, and thus bad game play. The =
proper behavior in a <br>congested network is to switch to a low =
bandwidth mode of some kind -- <br>maybe a lower frame rate, or a lower =
resolution. This is pretty much the <br>same issue as voice or video =
over IP: if the network is congested, it <br>makes sense to use a higher =
compression rate. With congestion control, <br>the application can =
detect the upset of congestion and adopt these <br>strategies. That's =
generally much better than to just passively accept <br>queues and =
losses. <br><br>-- Christian Huitema =
<br><br><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote>=
</div></div></body></html>
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From nobody Wed Jul 17 12:51:59 2019
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From: Bjorn Mellem <mellem@google.com>
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Subject: Re: Updated DATAGRAM -03 draft
To: Ingemar Johansson S <ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com>
Cc: Tommy Pauly <tpauly@apple.com>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, Robin MARX <robin.marx@uhasselt.be>,  =?UTF-8?Q?Mikkel_Fahn=C3=B8e_J=C3=B8rgensen?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>,  QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
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In Google's work on WebRTC-over-QUIC, we've generally used the GCC (Google
Congestion Control) scheme described in this draft:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rmcat-gcc-02.

We're moving toward an approach that essentially tunnels media over a QUIC
datagram flow.  In doing this, I've made a couple of observations about
congestion-controlled datagrams:

 1. In cases where we control the QUIC implementation, it's simple enough
to make it use GCC.  However, we'd like to be able to use it through
interfaces like WebTransport (https://github.com/WICG/web-transport,
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vvv-webtransport-overview-00), where we
do not control the QUIC transport directly.  (This could probably be solved
with appropriate APIs for configuring WebTransport's congestion control.)

 2. GCC is work-in-progress.  There are fairly regular changes aimed at
improving its performance in various edge cases.  In order to deploy
changes we either need an extremely broad API or control of the transport.

While this might seem like an API problem, among the proposed solutions is
"don't congestion control datagrams (let the application do that) and
implement a circuit-breaker instead".  That would obviously require that
the transport does not congestion control datagrams, either.

There are other possibilities that might work for real-time media, such as
exposing timing information and allowing an application to set a *lower*
rate if it wants to preserve latency.  But what about tunneling other
protocols over QUIC datagrams?  Do we expect those to work within QUIC's
congestion control?  Disable the upper-layer protocol's congestion
control?  Or hook the two together in some cooperative manner?

Bjorn

On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 11:31 PM Ingemar Johansson S <
ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com> wrote:

> +1.
>
> In the general non-QoS scenario it is to prefer that the streams share on=
e
> connection and thus one congestion control.
>
>
>
> My experiments with SCReAM (RFC8298) shows that this can be made to work
> quite well on RTP streams, an implementation of this is found at
> https://github.com/EricssonResearch/scream. It is however not
> straightforward to get perfect prioritization such as 70% of the bandwidt=
h
> goes to stream A and 30% to stream B when it comes to real-time low laten=
cy
> media. The key reason is that the low latency goal means that there are
> often no packets to schedule as extra delay due to queueing in the sender
> should be avoided, variations on source rates from video encoder makes it
> more challenging.
>
> In comparison, =E2=80=9CInfinite=E2=80=9D bitrate sources such as file tr=
ansfers are much
> easier to work with as they provide data ready to schedule for transmissi=
on
> on the sender side until the file transfer is done.
>
> In the SCReAM case I have so far managed to get something like ball-park
> weighted fairness, fig 7 in
> https://www.hindawi.com/journals/wcmc/2018/3142496/ shows how it works in
> a real test scenario over a LTE access.
>
>
>
> I mentioned non-QoS scenarios. In scenarios where an underlying network
> supports QoS (such as 4G/5G), then it can be beneficial to use two or mor=
e
> connections, which are then scheduled over different bearers.
>
>
>
> /Ingemar
>
>
>
> *From:* Tommy Pauly <tpauly@apple.com>
> *Sent:* den 16 juli 2019 14:47
> *To:* Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>
> *Cc:* Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen <mikkelfj@gmail.com>; QUIC WG <qu=
ic@ietf.org>;
> Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>; Robin MARX <
> robin.marx@uhasselt.be>
> *Subject:* Re: Updated DATAGRAM -03 draft
>
>
>
> I definitely agree that sharing one connection, where the frames are all
> subject to a shared congestion control, will provide the most control and
> the best results.
>
>
>
> What it does bring up, however, is the need for text regarding
> prioritization in the document, similar to the =E2=80=9CStream Prioritiza=
tion=E2=80=9D
> section in the main transport document. The application should be able to
> indicate to the quic implementation the relative priority of a flow of
> datagrams with regards to other streams and other flows, thus indicating
> how to schedule frames when congestion control opens up. This is also a w=
ay
> in which having a flow identifier known at the transport can be useful
> (although this identifier could be used strictly locally to get a similar
> effect).
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Tommy
>
>
>
> On Jul 15, 2019, at 6:23 PM, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com> wrote:
>
> =EF=BB=BF
>
> Using two connections would be unfortunate-- this will almost always
> guarantee worse results than even the most simple proportional
> prioritization or fair-share scheduling because you can cause self
> contention and dilute your measurement accuracy.
>
> -=3DR
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=
=B8rgensen
> <mikkelfj@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, July 15, 2019 12:12:09 PM
> *To:* QUIC WG; Christian Huitema; Robin MARX
> *Cc:* Tommy Pauly
> *Subject:* Re: Updated DATAGRAM -03 draft
>
>
>
> You could also carry two connections, one for video and one for game
> status updates.
>
>
>
> I=E2=80=99m wondering if there is, or should be, a way to accomplish this=
 on a
> single connection.
>
> I asked something similar a long time ago and I don=E2=80=99t think there=
 is any
> amition for managing bandwidth in this for on a single connection, at lea=
st
> for QUIC v1.
>
>
>
>
>
> On 15 July 2019 at 21.04.58, Christian Huitema (huitema@huitema.net)
> wrote:
>
>
> On 7/15/2019 3:03 AM, Robin MARX wrote:
> > Hello Tommy,
> >
> > Good to see the updated draft.
> > I do wonder about the decision to enforce congestion control for
> > DATAGRAM frames and the effect this will have on the gaming use case.
> > As also discussed in Prague, real-time gaming often requires a set
> > update rate frequency (e.g., 30-60 messages per second) for
> > responsiveness.
> > I wonder if congestion controlling the frames (e.g., delaying/dropping
> > them) will produce some weird edge cases that really mess with this
> > setup.
> > It's a bit difficult to assess because the messages are usually
> > relatively small (though they could be mixed with larger messages,
> > e.g., RPCs) and you could make the argument that, if there is actual
> > congestion, the packets will be dropped in the network either way.
> > You could also say that custom game-focused implementations will just
> > ignore the text and do their own logic as needed.
> >
> > So I'm not sure the text needs changes, I just wanted to mention that
> > it might not be optimal for the real-time gaming use case and that it
> > might be capable footgun with some weird edge cases if people do stick
> > to the text.
>
>
> Not really. If the network is congested and the video game still
> persists sending frequent messages the most likely outcome will be
> queuing and losses, and thus bad game play. The proper behavior in a
> congested network is to switch to a low bandwidth mode of some kind --
> maybe a lower frame rate, or a lower resolution. This is pretty much the
> same issue as voice or video over IP: if the network is congested, it
> makes sense to use a higher compression rate. With congestion control,
> the application can detect the upset of congestion and adopt these
> strategies. That's generally much better than to just passively accept
> queues and losses.
>
> -- Christian Huitema
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,he=
lvetica,sans-serif">In Google&#39;s work on WebRTC-over-QUIC, we&#39;ve gen=
erally used the GCC (Google Congestion Control) scheme described in this dr=
aft:=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rmcat-gcc-02" s=
tyle=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif" target=3D"_blank">https://t=
ools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rmcat-gcc-02</a>.</div><div class=3D"gmail_de=
fault" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br></div><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">We&#39=
;re moving toward an approach that essentially tunnels media over a QUIC da=
tagram flow.=C2=A0 In doing this, I&#39;ve made a couple of observations ab=
out congestion-controlled datagrams:</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" styl=
e=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_=
default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">=C2=A01. In cases=
 where we control the QUIC implementation, it&#39;s simple enough to make i=
t use GCC.=C2=A0 However, we&#39;d like to be able to use it through interf=
aces like WebTransport (<a href=3D"https://github.com/WICG/web-transport" s=
tyle=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif" target=3D"_blank">https://g=
ithub.com/WICG/web-transport</a>,=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/ht=
ml/draft-vvv-webtransport-overview-00" style=3D"font-family:Arial,Helvetica=
,sans-serif" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vvv-webtra=
nsport-overview-00</a>), where we do not control the QUIC transport directl=
y.=C2=A0 (This could probably be solved with appropriate APIs for configuri=
ng WebTransport&#39;s congestion control.)</div><div class=3D"gmail_default=
" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br></div><div class=3D"=
gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">=C2=A02. GC=
C is work-in-progress.=C2=A0 There are fairly regular changes aimed at impr=
oving its performance in various edge cases.=C2=A0 In order to deploy chang=
es we either need an extremely broad API or control of the transport.</div>=
<div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-seri=
f"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvet=
ica,sans-serif"></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:ari=
al,helvetica,sans-serif">While this might seem like an API problem, among t=
he proposed solutions is &quot;don&#39;t congestion control datagrams (let =
the application do that) and implement a circuit-breaker instead&quot;.=C2=
=A0 That would obviously require that the transport does not congestion con=
trol datagrams, either.<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font=
-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" =
style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">There are other possibilit=
ies that might work for real-time media, such as exposing timing informatio=
n and allowing an application to set a *lower* rate if it wants to preserve=
 latency.=C2=A0 But what about tunneling other protocols over QUIC datagram=
s?=C2=A0 Do we expect those to work within QUIC&#39;s congestion control?=
=C2=A0 Disable the upper-layer protocol&#39;s congestion control?=C2=A0 Or =
hook the two together in some cooperative manner?</div><div class=3D"gmail_=
default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><br></div><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Bjor=
n</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail=
_attr">On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 11:31 PM Ingemar Johansson S &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:ingemar.s.johansson@ericsson.com" target=3D"_blank">ingemar.s.johans=
son@ericsson.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pa=
dding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"SV"><div class=3D"gmail-m_2438511627457853278g=
mail-m_-7074547935369486604WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=
=3D"EN-US">+1. <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=
=3D"EN-US">In the general non-QoS scenario it is to prefer that the streams=
 share one connection and thus one congestion control. <u></u><u></u></span=
></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span=
></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">My experiments with SCReAM=
 (RFC8298) shows that this can be made to work quite well on RTP streams, a=
n implementation of this is found at </span><a href=3D"https://github.com/E=
ricssonResearch/scream" target=3D"_blank"><span lang=3D"EN-US">https://gith=
ub.com/EricssonResearch/scream</span></a><span lang=3D"EN-US">. It is howev=
er not straightforward to get perfect prioritization such as 70% of the ban=
dwidth goes to stream A and 30% to stream B when it comes to real-time low =
latency media. The key reason is that the low latency goal means that there=
 are often no packets to schedule as extra delay due to queueing in the sen=
der should be avoided, variations on source rates from video encoder makes =
it more challenging. <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
lang=3D"EN-US">In comparison, =E2=80=9CInfinite=E2=80=9D bitrate sources su=
ch as file transfers are much easier to work with as they provide data read=
y to schedule for transmission on the sender side until the file transfer i=
s done.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
>In the SCReAM case I have so far managed to get something like ball-park w=
eighted fairness, fig 7 in </span><a href=3D"https://www.hindawi.com/journa=
ls/wcmc/2018/3142496/" target=3D"_blank"><span lang=3D"EN-US">https://www.h=
indawi.com/journals/wcmc/2018/3142496/</span></a> <span lang=3D"EN-US">show=
s how it works in a real test scenario over a LTE access. </span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN=
-US">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span>I mentione=
d non-QoS scenarios. </span><span lang=3D"EN-US">In scenarios where an unde=
rlying network supports QoS (such as 4G/5G), then it can be beneficial to u=
se two or more connections, which are then scheduled over different bearers=
.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></=
u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">/Inge=
mar<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u>=
</u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><div style=3D"border-top:none;border-right:none=
;border-bottom:none;border-left:1.5pt solid blue;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt"><=
div><div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;bor=
der-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0cm 0cm"><p class=3D"MsoNorm=
al"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"> Tommy Pau=
ly &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tpauly@apple.com" target=3D"_blank">tpauly@apple.c=
om</a>&gt; <br><b>Sent:</b> den 16 juli 2019 14:47<br><b>To:</b> Roberto Pe=
on &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.com" target=3D"_blank">fenix@fb.com</a>&g=
t;<br><b>Cc:</b> Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mi=
kkelfj@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mikkelfj@gmail.com</a>&gt;; QUIC WG &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic@ietf.org</a>&gt;; =
Christian Huitema &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:huitema@huitema.net" target=3D"_bla=
nk">huitema@huitema.net</a>&gt;; Robin MARX &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:robin.mar=
x@uhasselt.be" target=3D"_blank">robin.marx@uhasselt.be</a>&gt;<br><b>Subje=
ct:</b> Re: Updated DATAGRAM -03 draft<u></u><u></u></span></p></div></div>=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
I definitely agree that sharing one connection, where the frames are all su=
bject to a shared congestion control, will provide the most control and the=
 best results.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=
=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">What it does bring up, h=
owever, is the need for text regarding prioritization in the document, simi=
lar to the =E2=80=9CStream Prioritization=E2=80=9D section in the main tran=
sport document. The application should be able to indicate to the quic impl=
ementation the relative priority of a flow of datagrams with regards to oth=
er streams and other flows, thus indicating how to schedule frames when con=
gestion control opens up. This is also a way in which having a flow identif=
ier known at the transport can be useful (although this identifier could be=
 used strictly locally to get a similar effect).=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></d=
iv><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">T=
ommy<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br><br><u></u><u><=
/u></p><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><p class=3D"M=
soNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt">On Jul 15, 2019, at 6:23 PM, Roberto=
 Peon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.com" target=3D"_blank">fenix@fb.com</a=
>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></blockquote></div><blockquote style=3D"margi=
n-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=EF=BB=BF <u></u><=
u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><span st=
yle=3D"font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">Using two connections woul=
d be unfortunate-- this will almost always guarantee worse results than eve=
n the most simple proportional prioritization or fair-share scheduling beca=
use you can cause self contention and dilute your measurement accuracy.<u><=
/u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-=
family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">-=3DR<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><d=
iv class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><hr siz=
e=3D"3" width=3D"98%" align=3D"center"></div><div id=3D"gmail-m_24385116274=
57853278gmail-m_-7074547935369486604divRplyFwdMsg"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><=
b><span style=3D"color:black">From:</span></b><span style=3D"color:black"> =
QUIC &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">quic-bo=
unces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mikkelfj@gmail.com</=
a>&gt;<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, July 15, 2019 12:12:09 PM<br><b>To:</b> QUIC=
 WG; Christian Huitema; Robin MARX<br><b>Cc:</b> Tommy Pauly<br><b>Subject:=
</b> Re: Updated DATAGRAM -03 draft</span> <u></u><u></u></p><div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><div><div id=3D"gmail-m_=
2438511627457853278gmail-m_-7074547935369486604bloop_customfont"><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-ser=
if">You could also carry two connections, one for video and one for game st=
atus updates.<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div id=3D"gmail-m_243851162745=
7853278gmail-m_-7074547935369486604bloop_customfont"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
><span style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></span></p></div><div id=3D"gmail-m_2438511627457853278gmail-m_-7=
074547935369486604bloop_customfont"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">I=E2=80=99m wondering if th=
ere is, or should be, a way to accomplish this on a single connection.<u></=
u><u></u></span></p></div><div id=3D"gmail-m_2438511627457853278gmail-m_-70=
74547935369486604bloop_customfont"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:10pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif">I asked something similar a =
long time ago and I don=E2=80=99t think there is any amition for managing b=
andwidth in this for on a single connection, at least for QUIC v1.<u></u><u=
></u></span></p></div><div id=3D"gmail-m_2438511627457853278gmail-m_-707454=
7935369486604bloop_sign_1563217806308105984"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0=
<u></u></span></p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></=
p><p class=3D"gmail-m_2438511627457853278gmail-m_-7074547935369486604airmai=
lon">On 15 July 2019 at 21.04.58, Christian Huitema (<a href=3D"mailto:huit=
ema@huitema.net" target=3D"_blank">huitema@huitema.net</a>) wrote:<u></u><u=
></u></p><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><div><div><=
p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12pt"><br>On 7/15/2019 3:03 AM=
, Robin MARX wrote: <br>&gt; Hello Tommy, <br>&gt; <br>&gt; Good to see the=
 updated draft. <br>&gt; I do wonder about the decision to enforce congesti=
on control for <br>&gt; DATAGRAM frames and the effect this will have on th=
e gaming use case.=C2=A0 <br>&gt; As also discussed in Prague, real-time ga=
ming often requires a set <br>&gt; update rate frequency (e.g., 30-60 messa=
ges per second) for <br>&gt; responsiveness.=C2=A0 <br>&gt; I wonder if con=
gestion controlling the frames (e.g., delaying/dropping <br>&gt; them) will=
 produce some weird edge cases that really mess with this <br>&gt; setup.=
=C2=A0 <br>&gt; It&#39;s a bit difficult to assess because the messages are=
 usually <br>&gt; relatively small (though they could be mixed with larger =
messages, <br>&gt; e.g., RPCs) and you could make the argument that, if the=
re is actual <br>&gt; congestion, the packets will be dropped in the networ=
k either way.=C2=A0 <br>&gt; You could also say that custom game-focused im=
plementations will just <br>&gt; ignore the text and do their own logic as =
needed. <br>&gt; <br>&gt; So I&#39;m not sure the text needs changes, I jus=
t wanted to mention that <br>&gt; it might not be optimal for the real-time=
 gaming use case and that it <br>&gt; might be capable footgun with some we=
ird edge cases if people do stick <br>&gt; to the text. <br><br><br>Not rea=
lly. If the network is congested and the video game still <br>persists send=
ing frequent messages the most likely outcome will be <br>queuing and losse=
s, and thus bad game play. The proper behavior in a <br>congested network i=
s to switch to a low bandwidth mode of some kind -- <br>maybe a lower frame=
 rate, or a lower resolution. This is pretty much the <br>same issue as voi=
ce or video over IP: if the network is congested, it <br>makes sense to use=
 a higher compression rate. With congestion control, <br>the application ca=
n detect the upset of congestion and adopt these <br>strategies. That&#39;s=
 generally much better than to just passively accept <br>queues and losses.=
 <br><br>-- Christian Huitema <br><br><u></u><u></u></p></div></div></block=
quote></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div>

--000000000000a54cc1058de5d259--


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From: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2019 19:51:28 -0400
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Subject: Re: Experimental data on priorities
To: Patrick Meenan <patmeenan@gmail.com>
Cc: IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, HTTP Working Group <ietf-http-wg@w3.org>,  Lucas Pardue <lucas@cloudflare.com>
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Mikkel, the 'why' is complicated and varied I suspect.

In Google's case, I know we like to isolate services like authentication
from static content from ads from large content(ie: YouTube) for a variety
of reasons.  I suspect we currently end up with as many as 2x more
connections than we really need, and we can likely fix a few of them, but I
anticipate we'll end up with >2 connections for the foreseeable future.

Why TaoBoa.com and TMall.com(both Alexa top 10) were using >20 H2
connections is quite confusing to me, or why Amazon is using 15 H2
connections, so I'd be curious if anyone knows.

On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 9:00 AM Patrick Meenan <patmeenan@gmail.com> wrote:

> Lucas can speak to the current state of deployment at Cloudflare but the
> scheme we deployed mirrors the current proposal well enough that the
> results should apply. It's a little different because the prioritization
> isn't originating from the client but it is being applied as if it was.
>
> Cloudflare has ample evidence that "it works" at least in place of
> HTTP/2's scheme over TCP and compares well to a well-implemented HTTP/2
> client (when serving web content to browsers anyway). Where the really bi=
g
> gains came into play were in overriding the client-requested prioritizati=
on
> from Safari and Edge and applying something that looks more like a mix of
> Chrome and Firefox (sequential critical assets, interleaved images). In
> that case it worked much better than HTTP/2 but it was because of the
> specific client HTTP/2 priority schemes and the bulk of the gains came fr=
om
> applying better sequencing server-side (though the ability to make
> server-side decisions was a huge benefit of the scheme).  It also works
> well enough that the new scheme is applied independent of the client so
> Chrome and Firefox also don't regress.
>

Thanks, this makes complete sense to me.

>
> Given that you can represent the proposed scheme in it's entirety with th=
e
> HTTP/2 schemes, I'm not sure you'll ever see an application performance
> gain if you are using the same client and applying the exact same scheme =
to
> both modes.  That said, the code complexity may prevent some features fro=
m
> being implemented in the tree that could be added fairly easily to the ne=
w
> scheme. The one that comes to mind for Chrome in particular is to enable
> interleaving of image data instead of delivering them sequentially. With
> the new scheme it's pretty much just carrying a bit through the stack to
> indicate that the given fetch should be interleaved and it can be mixed i=
n
> to the serialized priorities trivially. Doing the same with the full HTTP=
/2
> tree would be considerably more complex.
>

Agreed, we're starting to write the code to compare gQUIC's use of SPDY
priorities with Chrome's usage of the H2 tree with your proposal(in this
case, basically a variant of SPDY priorities), and we think that should be
relatively straightforward, but anything more complex would be a large
amount of work.


> On Mon, Jul 15, 2019 at 10:29 PM Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com> wrote:
>
>> When I presented slides on HTTP/3 priorities at the QUIC interim, one
>> consistent point was that the HTTP/3 working group wanted some experimen=
tal
>> evidence that an alternate scheme worked in practice.  gQUIC has always
>> used SPDY style priorities, FWIW, but we have no comparative data at
>> the moment.
>>
>> I can imagine a few ways to evaluate a priority scheme, but I'd like to
>> know whether I have the correct ones(and relative importance).
>> - Application performance
>> - Code size/complexity
>> - Bytes on the wire
>> - Computational complexity/potential for attacks
>> - Reduction/change in edge cases(particularly for HTTP/3 without HoL
>> blocking)
>> - New capabilities (ie: easier for LBs/AFEs to contribute?)
>>
>> *Experimentation Options*
>> The H2 stack at Google supports FIFO, LIFO and H2 priorities.  However,
>> it=E2=80=99s not currently using LOWAT and previous experiments have yie=
lded no
>> measurable change in performance, so H2 does not seem like a good
>> experiment platform.
>>
>> For gQUIC, we already have an implementation of H2 priorities that we=E2=
=80=99re
>> not using.  We can wire up an experiment to start using them and compare=
 to
>> SPDY style priorities, but given Chrome's internal priority scheme with =
5
>> levels and translation to a linked list in H2 priorities, I believe that
>> would only provide information on code size/complexity and bytes on the
>> wire.  Application performance would only change if one of the two schem=
es
>> had an implementation bug.
>>
>> Expanding Chrome=E2=80=99s usage of priorities is possible, but it=E2=80=
=99s a longer
>> term project and I don't know whether they'll change.
>>
>> *Other data*
>> Most thinking about priorities is based on the idea that a page is loade=
d
>> over a single connection, but in fact, that=E2=80=99s extraordinarily ra=
re as I
>> presented at the interim(except Wikipedia).   Would it be useful to have
>> more data on this from the client and/or server perspective?
>>
>> We'd be happy to work with someone else on gathering data as well,
>> assuming the WG would find the data we're gathering more valuable than w=
hat
>> Chrome/Google can provide alone.
>>
>> Thanks, Ian
>>
>

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Mikkel, the &#39;why&#39; is complicated and varied I=
 suspect.</div><div><br></div><div>In Google&#39;s case, I know we like to =
isolate services like authentication from static content from ads from larg=
e content(ie: YouTube) for a variety of reasons.=C2=A0 I suspect we current=
ly end up with as many as 2x more connections than we really need, and we c=
an likely fix a few of them, but I anticipate we&#39;ll end up with &gt;2 c=
onnections for the foreseeable=C2=A0future.</div><div><br></div><div>Why Ta=
oBoa.com and TMall.com(both Alexa top 10) were using &gt;20 H2 connections =
is quite confusing to me, or why Amazon is using 15 H2 connections, so I&#3=
9;d be curious if anyone knows.=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 9:00 AM =
Patrick Meenan &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:patmeenan@gmail.com">patmeenan@gmail.c=
om</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex=
"><div dir=3D"ltr">Lucas can speak to the current state of deployment at Cl=
oudflare but the scheme we deployed mirrors the current proposal well enoug=
h that the results should apply. It&#39;s a little different because the pr=
ioritization isn&#39;t originating from the client but it is being applied =
as if it was.=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>Cloudflare has ample evidence that &=
quot;it works&quot; at least in place of HTTP/2&#39;s scheme over TCP and c=
ompares well to a well-implemented HTTP/2 client (when serving web content =
to browsers anyway). Where the really big gains came into play were in over=
riding the client-requested prioritization from Safari and Edge and applyin=
g something that looks more like a mix of Chrome and Firefox (sequential cr=
itical assets, interleaved images). In that case it worked much better than=
 HTTP/2 but it was because of the specific client HTTP/2 priority schemes a=
nd the bulk of the gains came from applying better sequencing server-side (=
though the ability to make server-side decisions was a huge benefit of the =
scheme).=C2=A0 It also works well enough that the new scheme is applied ind=
ependent of the client so Chrome and Firefox also don&#39;t regress.</div><=
/div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Thanks, this makes complete sense to =
me.=C2=A0 =C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px=
 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div><div>Given that you can represent the proposed=
 scheme in it&#39;s entirety with the HTTP/2 schemes, I&#39;m not sure you&=
#39;ll ever see an application performance gain if you are using the same c=
lient and applying the exact same scheme to both modes.=C2=A0 That said, th=
e code complexity may prevent some features from being implemented in the t=
ree that could be added fairly easily to the new scheme. The one that comes=
 to mind for Chrome in particular is to enable interleaving of image data i=
nstead of delivering them sequentially. With the new scheme it&#39;s pretty=
 much just carrying a bit through the stack to indicate that the given fetc=
h should be interleaved and it can be mixed in to the serialized priorities=
 trivially. Doing the same with the full HTTP/2 tree would be considerably =
more complex.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Agreed, we&#39;re=
 starting to write the code to compare gQUIC&#39;s use of SPDY priorities w=
ith Chrome&#39;s usage of the H2 tree with your proposal(in this case, basi=
cally a variant of SPDY priorities), and we think that should be relatively=
 straightforward, but anything more complex would be a large amount of work=
.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px=
 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br=
><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, J=
ul 15, 2019 at 10:29 PM Ian Swett &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ianswett@google.com=
" target=3D"_blank">ianswett@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px so=
lid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">When I presented sl=
ides on HTTP/3 priorities at the QUIC interim, one consistent point was tha=
t the HTTP/3 working group wanted some experimental evidence that an altern=
ate scheme worked in practice.=C2=A0 gQUIC has always used SPDY style prior=
ities, FWIW, but we have no comparative data at the=C2=A0moment.<br><br>I c=
an imagine a few ways to evaluate a priority scheme, but I&#39;d like to kn=
ow whether I have the correct ones(and relative importance).<br>- Applicati=
on performance<br>- Code size/complexity<br>- Bytes on the wire<br>- Comput=
ational complexity/potential for attacks<br>- Reduction/change in edge case=
s(particularly for HTTP/3 without HoL blocking)<br>- New capabilities (ie: =
easier for LBs/AFEs to contribute?)<br><br><b>Experimentation Options</b><b=
r>The H2 stack at Google supports FIFO, LIFO and H2 priorities.=C2=A0 Howev=
er, it=E2=80=99s not currently using LOWAT and previous experiments have yi=
elded no measurable change in performance, so H2 does not seem like a good =
experiment platform.<br><br>For gQUIC, we already have an implementation of=
 H2 priorities that we=E2=80=99re not using.=C2=A0 We can wire up an experi=
ment to start using them and compare to SPDY style priorities, but given Ch=
rome&#39;s internal priority scheme with 5 levels and translation to a link=
ed list in H2 priorities, I believe that would only provide information on =
code size/complexity and bytes on the wire.=C2=A0 Application performance w=
ould only change if one of the two schemes had an implementation bug.<br><b=
r>Expanding Chrome=E2=80=99s usage of priorities is possible, but it=E2=80=
=99s a longer term project and I don&#39;t know whether they&#39;ll change.=
<br><br><b>Other data</b><br>Most thinking about priorities is based on the=
 idea that a page is loaded over a single connection, but in fact, that=E2=
=80=99s extraordinarily rare as I presented at the interim(except Wikipedia=
). =C2=A0 Would it be useful to have more data on this from the client and/=
or server perspective?<div><br></div><div>We&#39;d be happy to work with so=
meone else on gathering data as well, assuming the WG would find the data w=
e&#39;re gathering more valuable than what Chrome/Google can provide alone.=
</div><div><br>Thanks, Ian<br></div></div>
</blockquote></div>
</blockquote></div></div>

--000000000000b49faf058de92cb3--


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From: Frederick Kautz <fkautz@alumni.cmu.edu>
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 08:26:56 -0700
Message-ID: <CAJGwveDw2bBagAwuKE82rw4_kuk4FtKYxryK1-A2VnrHo+U8bA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
To: brent.bilger=40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org
Cc: IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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--0000000000000d4d5a058e0a5cd3
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
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What techniques are common in standard TCP/UDP stacks for both kernel and
userspace networking scenarios?

On Fri, Jul 19, 2019, 08:16 <brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
wrote:

> Problem:
> QUIC servers, like just about all other servers, are far too susceptible
> to DoS attacks.  Integral to the client-server architecture is the
> fact that servers must listen to all potential clients on the network(s)
> they serve =E2=80=93 whether the connection is from a legitimate client o=
r
> not. This was fine when IT controlled the network, but the scope of the
> Internet changed all that. Servers listening to all communications enable=
s
> resource DoS attacks. Resource DoS attacks on QUIC servers are amplified =
by
> the processing requirements of public/private key cryptography which an
> attacker a can induce the server to do without burdening the attacker.  I=
n
> addition, servers responding to all queries can leak information that
> adversaries can later use to attack them.
>
> Requirement:
> Provide a way that QUIC servers can easily, with very low processing
> requirement, tell if a connection is from a legitimate client.
>
>
>
> Brent Bliger
> Director-Technology Verizon SDP
> brent.bilger@verizon.com
>
>
>
>
>
>

--0000000000000d4d5a058e0a5cd3
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"auto"><div>What techniques are common in standard TCP/UDP stack=
s for both kernel and userspace networking scenarios?</div><div dir=3D"auto=
"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote" dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gma=
il_attr">On Fri, Jul 19, 2019, 08:16  &lt;brent.bilger=3D<a href=3D"mailto:=
40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org">40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<b=
r></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border=
-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">



<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
Problem:<br>
QUIC servers, like just about all other servers, are far too susceptible to=
 DoS attacks.=C2=A0=C2=A0Integral to the client-server architecture is the =
fact=C2=A0that servers must listen to all potential clients on the network(=
s) they serve =E2=80=93 whether the connection is from
 a legitimate client or not.=C2=A0This was fine when IT controlled the netw=
ork, but the scope of the Internet changed all that. Servers listening to a=
ll communications=C2=A0enables resource DoS attacks. Resource DoS attacks o=
n QUIC servers are amplified by the processing
 requirements of public/private=C2=A0key cryptography which an attacker a c=
an induce the server to do without burdening the attacker.=C2=A0=C2=A0In ad=
dition, servers responding to all=C2=A0queries can leak information that ad=
versaries can later use to attack them.<br>
<br>
Requirement:<br>
Provide a way that QUIC servers can easily, with very low processing requir=
ement, tell if a connection is from a legitimate client.<br>
<div>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size=
:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-=
spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-s=
pace:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;word-wrap:break-word;line=
-break:after-white-space">
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-spac=
e">
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:norm=
al;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;=
word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<br class=3D"m_-3232228461469812674Apple-interchange-newline">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:norm=
al;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;=
word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:norm=
al;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;=
word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
Brent Bliger</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:norm=
al;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;=
word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
Director-Technology=C2=A0Verizon SDP=C2=A0<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:norm=
al;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;=
word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"norefe=
rrer">brent.bilger@verizon.com</a></div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:24px;font-st=
yle:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:norma=
l;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;w=
ord-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<br>
</div>
<br class=3D"m_-3232228461469812674Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
</div>
<br class=3D"m_-3232228461469812674Apple-interchange-newline" style=3D"colo=
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xt-decoration:none">
<br class=3D"m_-3232228461469812674Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br>
</div>

</blockquote></div></div></div>

--0000000000000d4d5a058e0a5cd3--


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From: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 11:31:26 -0400
Message-ID: <CAKcm_gMBGdv2p4afhPb8tztBZaBQdwtwTJ2tWQ+xV1xr=q8viQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
To: brent.bilger=40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org
Cc: "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>
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On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 11:16 AM <brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.o=
rg>
wrote:

> Problem:
> QUIC servers, like just about all other servers, are far too susceptible
> to DoS attacks.  Integral to the client-server architecture is the
> fact that servers must listen to all potential clients on the network(s)
> they serve =E2=80=93 whether the connection is from a legitimate client o=
r
> not. This was fine when IT controlled the network, but the scope of the
> Internet changed all that. Servers listening to all communications enable=
s
> resource DoS attacks. Resource DoS attacks on QUIC servers are amplified =
by
> the processing requirements of public/private key cryptography which an
> attacker a can induce the server to do without burdening the attacker.  I=
n
> addition, servers responding to all queries can leak information that
> adversaries can later use to attack them.
>
> Requirement:
> Provide a way that QUIC servers can easily, with very low processing
> requirement, tell if a connection is from a legitimate client.
>

QUIC's Retry token is designed for this purpose.  I believe that should be
sufficient and make QUIC equivalent to TCP.

Also, QUIC requires much larger Initial packet sizes than a TCP SYN,
increasing the amount of work an attacker has to expend.


>
>
> Brent Bliger
> Director-Technology Verizon SDP
> brent.bilger@verizon.com
>
>
>
>
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 11:16 AM &lt;=
brent.bilger=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org">40verizon.co=
m@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" =
style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pa=
dding-left:1ex">



<div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;">
Problem:<br>
QUIC servers, like just about all other servers, are far too susceptible to=
 DoS attacks.=C2=A0=C2=A0Integral to the client-server architecture is the =
fact=C2=A0that servers must listen to all potential clients on the network(=
s) they serve =E2=80=93 whether the connection is from
 a legitimate client or not.=C2=A0This was fine when IT controlled the netw=
ork, but the scope of the Internet changed all that. Servers listening to a=
ll communications=C2=A0enables resource DoS attacks. Resource DoS attacks o=
n QUIC servers are amplified by the processing
 requirements of public/private=C2=A0key cryptography which an attacker a c=
an induce the server to do without burdening the attacker.=C2=A0=C2=A0In ad=
dition, servers responding to all=C2=A0queries can leak information that ad=
versaries can later use to attack them.<br>
<br>
Requirement:<br>
Provide a way that QUIC servers can easily, with very low processing requir=
ement, tell if a connection is from a legitimate client.<br></div></blockqu=
ote><div><br></div><div>QUIC&#39;s Retry token is designed for this purpose=
.=C2=A0 I believe that should be sufficient and make QUIC equivalent to TCP=
.</div><div><br></div><div>Also, QUIC requires much larger Initial packet s=
izes than a TCP SYN, increasing the amount of work an attacker has to expen=
d.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0p=
x 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><d=
iv style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;">
<div>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size=
:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-=
spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-s=
pace:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;">
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:norm=
al;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;=
word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<br class=3D"gmail-m_5244921203470393373Apple-interchange-newline">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:norm=
al;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;=
word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:norm=
al;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;=
word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
Brent Bliger</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:norm=
al;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;=
word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
Director-Technology=C2=A0Verizon SDP=C2=A0<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:norm=
al;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;=
word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com" target=3D"_blank">brent.bilger@=
verizon.com</a></div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:24px;font-st=
yle:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:norma=
l;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;w=
ord-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<br>
</div>
<br class=3D"gmail-m_5244921203470393373Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
</div>
<br class=3D"gmail-m_5244921203470393373Apple-interchange-newline" style=3D=
"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;fo=
nt-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:=
start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0=
px;text-decoration:none">
<br class=3D"gmail-m_5244921203470393373Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br>
</div>

</blockquote></div></div>

--00000000000010cabb058e0a6ce6--


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Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 17:53:23 +0200
From: Willy Tarreau <w@1wt.eu>
To: Frederick Kautz <fkautz@alumni.cmu.edu>
Cc: brent.bilger=40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
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On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 08:26:56AM -0700, Frederick Kautz wrote:
> What techniques are common in standard TCP/UDP stacks for both kernel and
> userspace networking scenarios?

For TCP, typically SYN cookies, which can easily be offloaded very low
into the stack or even on external devices so that multi-10G at line
rate is easily achieved on commodity hardware.

Willy


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Subject: Re: DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
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QUIC v1 does have some mitigations such as amplification attack prevention
and mostly avoiding disconnect on bad input.

If there are multiple server endpoints, a load balancer SHOULD choose an
arbitrary endpoint that is not dependent on client input. This prevents
targeting a single server during the expensive public key handshake.

An endpoint can also issue a RETRY request. This forces the client to
confirm that traffic can be routed back to it before more resources are
invested in the handshake. Outside of QUIC this can be used to learn about
bad addresses since the number of source IP=E2=80=99s are now limited to ac=
tual
attackers, so rate limiting can be applied.

If the client can be controlled, such as in a client library on a phone
handset, or an IoT device, there are more options. These would in principle
amount to a new custom QUIC version, but it is not strictly necessary:

When a connection is established, a random OCID (original connection ID) is
sent to what ever endpoint care to answer when traffic is sent towards a
server address as stated before. The OCID is NOT used to route traffic to
prevent attacks. However, if client generates the OCID not randomly but
from some shared key crypto scheme, then a load balancer can quickly filter
out invalid traffic, except for replay attacks. If a time factor is also
encoded, such replays can be limited.


What techniques are common in standard TCP/UDP stacks for both kernel and
userspace networking scenarios?



I guess the folks at CloudFlare can speak a lot more about that.

But a common practice is to route traffic through a gateway service.
Normally that traffic just passes through to the endpoint or cluster of
endpoints. This means the DNS points to the gateway, shall we say,
midpoints.

If an attack is detected, the gateway starts to create a maze of new
midpoints with suitably updated DNS records that can be disorienting to an
attacker that is trying to lock on to one single endpoint in order to
overload it. The gateway can then forward traffic to the endpoints as
before since the attack is becoming diluted and possibly ending blind.

At the same time the gateway may start to learn about the source of the
attack and filter out traffic more or less brutally for the greater good,
for example taking out an entire country or continent. Since DDoS attacks
are distributed, this can be difficult to achieve at a granular level, if
at all. At least the gateway service can drop excess traffic instead of
overloading resources such as auto-scalers or triggering crashes due to
memory exhaustion.

Machine learning probably pays a part in this. Such attack prevention
mechanisms are far to complex to handle at the individual endpoint level.

That said, it would be possible to place more emphasis on client
authentication, and there is support in TLS and QUIC, but it is not
practical for general browser deployment, and for attack prevention the
detection may come to late, if only because it has a cost to validate the
clients.

Mikkel

On 19 July 2019 at 17.27.23, Frederick Kautz (fkautz@alumni.cmu.edu) wrote:

What techniques are common in standard TCP/UDP stacks for both kernel and
userspace networking scenarios?

On Fri, Jul 19, 2019, 08:16 <brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
wrote:

> Problem:
> QUIC servers, like just about all other servers, are far too susceptible
> to DoS attacks.  Integral to the client-server architecture is the
> fact that servers must listen to all potential clients on the network(s)
> they serve =E2=80=93 whether the connection is from a legitimate client o=
r
> not. This was fine when IT controlled the network, but the scope of the
> Internet changed all that. Servers listening to all communications enable=
s
> resource DoS attacks. Resource DoS attacks on QUIC servers are amplified =
by
> the processing requirements of public/private key cryptography which an
> attacker a can induce the server to do without burdening the attacker.  I=
n
> addition, servers responding to all queries can leak information that
> adversaries can later use to attack them.
>
> Requirement:
> Provide a way that QUIC servers can easily, with very low processing
> requirement, tell if a connection is from a legitimate client.
>
>
>
> Brent Bliger
> Director-Technology Verizon SDP
> brent.bilger@verizon.com
>
>
>
>
>
>

--00000000000036b111058e0ad0f6
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><div id=3D"bloop_cus=
tomfont" style=3D"margin:0px">QUIC v1 does have some mitigations such as am=
plification attack prevention and mostly avoiding disconnect on bad input.<=
/div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div id=3D=
"bloop_customfont" style=3D"margin:0px"><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=
=3D"margin:0px">If there are multiple server endpoints, a load balancer SHO=
ULD choose an arbitrary endpoint that is not dependent on client input. Thi=
s prevents targeting a single server during the expensive public key handsh=
ake.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div =
id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"margin:0px">An endpoint can also issue a R=
ETRY request. This forces the client to confirm that traffic can be routed =
back to it before more resources are invested in the handshake. Outside of =
QUIC this can be used to learn about bad addresses since the number of sour=
ce IP=E2=80=99s are now limited to actual attackers, so rate limiting can b=
e applied.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div=
><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"margin:0px">If the client can be con=
trolled, such as in a client library on a phone handset, or an IoT device, =
there are more options. These would in principle amount to a new custom QUI=
C version, but it is not strictly necessary:</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfo=
nt" style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"ma=
rgin:0px">When a connection is established, a random OCID (original connect=
ion ID) is sent to what ever endpoint care to answer when traffic is sent t=
owards a server address as stated before. The OCID is NOT used to route tra=
ffic to prevent attacks. However, if client generates the OCID not randomly=
 but from some shared key crypto scheme, then a load balancer can quickly f=
ilter out invalid traffic, except for replay attacks. If a time factor is a=
lso encoded, such replays can be limited.</div></div><div id=3D"bloop_custo=
mfont" style=3D"margin:0px"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D=
"margin:0px"><br></div></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-fam=
ily:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-he=
ight:auto"><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq"><div dir=3D"auto">W=
hat techniques are common in standard TCP/UDP stacks for both kernel and us=
erspace networking scenarios?</div></blockquote><div><div dir=3D"auto"><br>=
</div></div></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helveti=
ca,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">=
<br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial=
;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">I guess =
the folks at CloudFlare can speak a lot more about that.</div><div id=3D"bl=
oop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:r=
gba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_cust=
omfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,=
0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">But a common practice is to route traff=
ic through a gateway service. Normally that traffic just passes through to =
the endpoint or cluster of endpoints. This means the DNS points to the gate=
way, shall we say, midpoints.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"fo=
nt-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;l=
ine-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-famil=
y:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-heig=
ht:auto">If an attack is detected, the gateway starts to create a maze of n=
ew midpoints with suitably updated DNS records that can be disorienting to =
an attacker that is trying to lock on to one single endpoint in order to ov=
erload it. The gateway can then forward traffic to the endpoints as before =
since the attack is becoming diluted and possibly ending blind.</div><div i=
d=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;=
color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"blo=
op_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rg=
ba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">At the same time the gateway may=
 start to learn about the source of the attack and filter out traffic more =
or less brutally for the greater good, for example taking out an entire cou=
ntry or continent. Since DDoS attacks are distributed, this can be difficul=
t to achieve at a granular level, if at all. At least the gateway service c=
an drop excess traffic instead of overloading resources such as auto-scaler=
s or triggering crashes due to memory exhaustion.</div><div id=3D"bloop_cus=
tomfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0=
,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont"=
 style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);=
margin:0px;line-height:auto">Machine learning probably pays a part in this.=
 Such attack prevention mechanisms are far to complex to handle at the indi=
vidual endpoint level.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-fami=
ly:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-hei=
ght:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helve=
tica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto=
">That said, it would be possible to place more emphasis on client authenti=
cation, and there is support in TLS and QUIC, but it is not practical for g=
eneral browser deployment, and for attack prevention the detection may come=
 to late, if only because it has a cost to validate the clients.</div><div =
id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px=
;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bl=
oop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:r=
gba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">Mikkel</div><div id=3D"bloop_cu=
stomfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,=
0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont=
" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0)=
;margin:0px;line-height:auto">On 19 July 2019 at 17.27.23, Frederick Kautz =
(<a href=3D"mailto:fkautz@alumni.cmu.edu">fkautz@alumni.cmu.edu</a>) wrote:=
</div> <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq"><span><div><div></div><=
div>


<title></title>


<div dir=3D"auto">
<div>What techniques are common in standard TCP/UDP stacks for both
kernel and userspace networking scenarios?</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote" dir=3D"auto">
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Jul 19, 2019, 08:16
&lt;brent.bilger=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org">40verizo=
n.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;
wrote:<br></div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space">
Problem:<br>
QUIC servers, like just about all other servers, are far too
susceptible to DoS attacks.=C2=A0=C2=A0Integral to the
client-server architecture is the fact=C2=A0that servers must
listen to all potential clients on the network(s) they serve =E2=80=93
whether the connection is from a legitimate client or
not.=C2=A0This was fine when IT controlled the network, but the
scope of the Internet changed all that. Servers listening to all
communications=C2=A0enables resource DoS attacks. Resource DoS
attacks on QUIC servers are amplified by the processing
requirements of public/private=C2=A0key cryptography which an
attacker a can induce the server to do without burdening the
attacker.=C2=A0=C2=A0In addition, servers responding to
all=C2=A0queries can leak information that adversaries can later
use to attack them.<br>
<br>
Requirement:<br>
Provide a way that QUIC servers can easily, with very low
processing requirement, tell if a connection is from a legitimate
client.<br>
<div>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size=
:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-=
spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-s=
pace:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;word-wrap:break-word;line=
-break:after-white-space">
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-spac=
e">
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:norm=
al;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;=
word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<br class=3D"m_-3232228461469812674Apple-interchange-newline">
<br></div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:norm=
al;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;=
word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<br></div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:norm=
al;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;=
word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
Brent Bliger</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:norm=
al;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;=
word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
Director-Technology=C2=A0Verizon SDP=C2=A0<br></div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:norm=
al;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;=
word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"norefe=
rrer">brent.bilger@verizon.com</a></div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:24px;font-st=
yle:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:norma=
l;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;w=
ord-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<br></div>
<br class=3D"m_-3232228461469812674Apple-interchange-newline"></div>
</div>
<br class=3D"m_-3232228461469812674Apple-interchange-newline" style=3D"colo=
r:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-va=
riant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start=
;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;te=
xt-decoration:none">

<br class=3D"m_-3232228461469812674Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>


</div></div></span></blockquote></body></html>

--00000000000036b111058e0ad0f6--


From nobody Fri Jul 19 09:04:50 2019
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Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 18:04:32 +0200
From: Willy Tarreau <w@1wt.eu>
To: Ian Swett <ianswett=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: brent.bilger=40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
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Hi Ian,

On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 11:31:26AM -0400, Ian Swett wrote:
> QUIC's Retry token is designed for this purpose.  I believe that should be
> sufficient and make QUIC equivalent to TCP.

The important difference is that only the QUIC stack can process this,
so the packet has to pass all the way through the whole stack to userland,
the protection cannot be offloaded to lower layers nor to an external
device. This remains a pretty big concern to me.

> Also, QUIC requires much larger Initial packet sizes than a TCP SYN,
> increasing the amount of work an attacker has to expend.

Sure but not that much. Even with an initial packet as large as 200 bytes
you still feed the whole stack at 5 million packets per second on a single
10G port. This is a lot to pass through the whole stack, not counting the
potential crypto that is associated with it nor building the response, of
course. But we'll see.

Willy


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From: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 13:47:19 -0400
Message-ID: <CAKcm_gN8O+M_gWGzAxyWch10mKk7xC=xj-+B6=-hjNQk711eCA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
To: Willy Tarreau <w@1wt.eu>
Cc: brent.bilger@verizon.com, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>
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On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 12:04 PM Willy Tarreau <w@1wt.eu> wrote:

> Hi Ian,
>
> On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 11:31:26AM -0400, Ian Swett wrote:
> > QUIC's Retry token is designed for this purpose.  I believe that should
> be
> > sufficient and make QUIC equivalent to TCP.
>
> The important difference is that only the QUIC stack can process this,
> so the packet has to pass all the way through the whole stack to userland,
> the protection cannot be offloaded to lower layers nor to an external
> device. This remains a pretty big concern to me.
>

There's a proposed draft(draft-duke-quic-load-balancers
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-duke-quic-load-balancers/>) on QUIC
load balancers, so I don't think the above is necessarily true.

>
> > Also, QUIC requires much larger Initial packet sizes than a TCP SYN,
> > increasing the amount of work an attacker has to expend.
>
> Sure but not that much. Even with an initial packet as large as 200 bytes
> you still feed the whole stack at 5 million packets per second on a single
> 10G port. This is a lot to pass through the whole stack, not counting the
> potential crypto that is associated with it nor building the response, of
> course. But we'll see.
>
>
The minimum is 1200 bytes FYI.

> Willy
>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 12:04 PM Will=
y Tarreau &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:w@1wt.eu">w@1wt.eu</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi Ian,<br>
<br>
On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 11:31:26AM -0400, Ian Swett wrote:<br>
&gt; QUIC&#39;s Retry token is designed for this purpose.=C2=A0 I believe t=
hat should be<br>
&gt; sufficient and make QUIC equivalent to TCP.<br>
<br>
The important difference is that only the QUIC stack can process this,<br>
so the packet has to pass all the way through the whole stack to userland,<=
br>
the protection cannot be offloaded to lower layers nor to an external<br>
device. This remains a pretty big concern to me.<br></blockquote><div><br><=
/div><div>There&#39;s a proposed draft(<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.=
org/doc/draft-duke-quic-load-balancers/">draft-duke-quic-load-balancers</a>=
) on QUIC load balancers, so I don&#39;t think the above is necessarily tru=
e.=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px=
 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
&gt; Also, QUIC requires much larger Initial packet sizes than a TCP SYN,<b=
r>
&gt; increasing the amount of work an attacker has to expend.<br>
<br>
Sure but not that much. Even with an initial packet as large as 200 bytes<b=
r>
you still feed the whole stack at 5 million packets per second on a single<=
br>
10G port. This is a lot to pass through the whole stack, not counting the<b=
r>
potential crypto that is associated with it nor building the response, of<b=
r>
course. But we&#39;ll see.<br>
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The minimum is 1200 bytes FYI.=C2=A0</=
div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bor=
der-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
Willy<br>
</blockquote></div></div>

--000000000000092921058e0c5239--


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Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 14:10:29 -0400
From: "Martin Thomson" <mt@lowentropy.net>
To: quic@ietf.org
Subject: Re: DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
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On Fri, Jul 19, 2019, at 12:04, Willy Tarreau wrote:
> Hi Ian,
> 
> On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 11:31:26AM -0400, Ian Swett wrote:
> > QUIC's Retry token is designed for this purpose.  I believe that should be
> > sufficient and make QUIC equivalent to TCP.
> 
> The important difference is that only the QUIC stack can process this,
> so the packet has to pass all the way through the whole stack to userland,
> the protection cannot be offloaded to lower layers nor to an external
> device. This remains a pretty big concern to me.

The design only requires cooperation between the device that generates the Retry and the eventual endpoint.  That doesn't require heavy processing before offload.  As Ian says, there is work going on to formalize a protocol between the two, but this could be an extremely simple process if you want to keep the two at arms length.


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From: "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>
To: "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com>, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>
CC: Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>, "isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com" <isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com>, "alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com" <alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com>
Subject: RE: Packet Loss Signaling for Encrypted Protocols - draft-ferrieuxhamchaoui-tsvwg-lossbits
Thread-Topic: Packet Loss Signaling for Encrypted Protocols - draft-ferrieuxhamchaoui-tsvwg-lossbits
Thread-Index: AdU2CmyJiha8kWgiTzSY5F1e75TnXwAMRh8AAArB47AB/e9+UA==
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 18:22:28 +0000
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Since tsvwg and maprg meetings are rather late in the week, I've booked a s=
ide meeting time.

So, for those who are interested in loss signaling for encrypted protocols =
(such as QUIC), we can discuss this:

* side meeting -- Monday 8:30am-9:30am in Sainte-Catherine
* tsvwg (Thu) -- focus on signaling, privacy, ossification
* maprg (Fri) -- focus on real world data collected and capabilities/limita=
tions of the measurement method=20

- Igor

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lubashev, Igor <ilubashe@akamai.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2019 11:07 AM
>=20
> Understood (and not unexpected).
>=20
> For those who are interested, we'll talk about the draft in tsvwg (focus =
on
> signaling behavior, privacy preservation, ossification resistance, maybe =
specifics
> of where the signals can be carried) and maprg (focus on the data collect=
ed,
> accuracy of measurement, capabilities at detecting/measuring various caus=
es of
> loss, and techniques to improve noise filtering due to reordering).  Both=
 of the
> WG meetings are later in the week (tsvwg is on Thu, maprg on Fri).
>=20
> Alexandre and I will be in Montreal, and we are happy to have side meetin=
gs with
> interested people.
>=20
> Many thanks,
>=20
> - Igor
>=20
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2019 12:49 AM
> > To: Lubashev, Igor <ilubashe@akamai.com>
> > Cc: Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>; quic@ietf.org;
> > isabelle.hamchaoui@orange.com; alexandre.ferrieux@orange.com
> > Subject: Re: Packet Loss Signaling for Encrypted Protocols - draft-
> > ferrieuxhamchaoui-tsvwg-lossbits
> >
> > Hi Igor,
> >
> > Thanks for that. Our agenda is indeed tight, so I'd recommend discussin=
g on the
> > list and having side conversations in Montreal.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> >
> > > On 9 Jul 2019, at 2:44 pm, Lubashev, Igor <ilubashe@akamai.com> wrote=
:
> > >
> > > Alexandre, Isabelle, and I have posted a draft on a method for endpoi=
nts to
> > signal packet loss to the path, while maintaining end user privacy and =
resisting
> > ossification.  The method is protocol-independent, but of course you ge=
t the
> > most benefit by applying the method to encrypted transports, and QUIC i=
s
> what
> > people usually think of first in such context.
> > >
> > > The draft is not targeted at the QUIC WG specifically, since it is de=
scribing a
> > general method of such loss reporting.  But we do mention QUIC, so the =
WG
> may
> > find it interesting.  We would welcome feedback from the QUIC WG.
> > >
> > > Lars, Mark, I am sure the meeting agenda for Montreal is pretty tight=
, but if
> the
> > WG is interested, we are happy to have a quick QUIC-specific presentati=
on on
> > this.
> > >
> > > Thank you!
> > >
> > > - Igor
> > >
> > > P.S.  We've implemented this proposal in some Akamai servers and have
> been
> > using it to serve actual end-user QUIC traffic for a subset of Orange c=
ustomers.
> > Orange implemented a passive observer that used this signal to detect a=
nd
> > identify loss.  We can share the high-level of the results and will sha=
re the
> > detailed analysis of the data and measurement techniques in maprg.
> > >
> > > ---------------------
> > >
> > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ferrieuxhamchaoui-tsvwg-lossbi=
ts/
> > >
> > > Abstract:
> > >   This document describes a protocol-independent method that employs
> > >   two bits to allow endpoints to signal packet loss in a way that can
> > >   be used by network devices to measure and locate the source of the
> > >   loss.  The signaling method applies to all protocols with a protoco=
l-
> > >   specific way to identify packet loss.  The method is especially
> > >   valuable when applied to protocols that encrypt transport header an=
d
> > >   do not allow an alternative method for loss detection.
> >
> > --
> > Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/


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From: =?UTF-8?Q?T=C3=B6ma_Gavrichenkov?= <ximaera@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2019 03:07:12 +0300
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Subject: Re: DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
To: Ian Swett <ianswett=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: brent.bilger=40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>
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Peace,

On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 6:31 PM Ian Swett
<ianswett=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
> QUIC's Retry token is designed for this purpose..
> I believe that should be sufficient and make QUIC
> equivalent to TCP..

For a server, yes.

However, mitigating a Server Hello DDoS attack towards a _client_ is
very complicated (if even possible) with QUIC, as opposed to TCP with
SYN/ACK floods.
We've discussed that during the hackathon in Prague (I don't remember
if you were there or not).  Possible solution with respect to the
current QUIC threat model and architecture probably has something to
do with the likes of potential DOTS integration or something like
that.

> Also, QUIC requires much larger Initial packet sizes than a TCP SYN, incr=
easing the amount of work an attacker has to expend.

No, there's no increase.

What we see in practice are combined UDP+SYN flood incidents where
proper SYN packet rates (w/o fast open) are roughly equal to UDP
packet rates but the bandwidth consumed by SYN segments is an order of
magnitude lower than the UDP bandwidth (without amplification).
Therefore, currently the bottleneck for DDoSers is the packet rate,
not the bandwidth, and the initial packet size growth won't help here.

--
T=C3=B6ma


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From: William Herrin <bill@herrin.us>
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 17:57:18 -0700
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Subject: Re: DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
To: =?UTF-8?Q?T=C3=B6ma_Gavrichenkov?= <ximaera@gmail.com>
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--000000000000bcbfd3058e125307
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On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 5:07 PM T=C3=B6ma Gavrichenkov <ximaera@gmail.com> =
wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 6:31 PM Ian Swett
> <ianswett=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
> > QUIC's Retry token is designed for this purpose..
> > I believe that should be sufficient and make QUIC
> > equivalent to TCP..
>
> For a server, yes.
>
> However, mitigating a Server Hello DDoS attack towards a _client_ is
> very complicated (if even possible) with QUIC, as opposed to TCP with
> SYN/ACK floods.
> We've discussed that during the hackathon in Prague (I don't remember
> if you were there or not).  Possible solution with respect to the
> current QUIC threat model and architecture probably has something to
> do with the likes of potential DOTS integration or something like
> that.
>

Would you elaborate on this? Considering that the quic client employs an
ephemeral UDP port, what is the quic-specific threat model here? I.e. how
does it differ from any other client with a handful of open ephemeral UDP
ports?

Thanks,
Bill Herrin


--=20
William Herrin
bill@herrin.us
https://bill.herrin.us/

--000000000000bcbfd3058e125307
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 5:07 PM T=C3=
=B6ma Gavrichenkov &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ximaera@gmail.com">ximaera@gmail.c=
om</a>&gt; wrote:</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0p=
x 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-c=
olor:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 6:31 PM Ian Swett<br>
&lt;ianswett=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; QUIC&#39;s Retry token is designed for this purpose..<br>
&gt; I believe that should be sufficient and make QUIC<br>
&gt; equivalent to TCP..<br>
<br>
For a server, yes.<br>
<br>
However, mitigating a Server Hello DDoS attack towards a _client_ is<br>
very complicated (if even possible) with QUIC, as opposed to TCP with<br>
SYN/ACK floods.<br>
We&#39;ve discussed that during the hackathon in Prague (I don&#39;t rememb=
er<br>
if you were there or not).=C2=A0 Possible solution with respect to the<br>
current QUIC threat model and architecture probably has something to<br>
do with the likes of potential DOTS integration or something like<br>
that.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Would you elaborate on this? Cons=
idering that the quic client employs an ephemeral UDP port, what is the qui=
c-specific threat model here? I.e. how does it differ from any other client=
 with a handful of open ephemeral UDP ports?</div><div><br></div><div>Thank=
s,</div><div>Bill Herrin</div><div><br></div></div><div><br></div>-- <br><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>William Herr=
in</div><div><a href=3D"mailto:bill@herrin.us" target=3D"_blank">bill@herri=
n.us</a></div><div><a href=3D"https://bill.herrin.us/" target=3D"_blank">ht=
tps://bill.herrin.us/</a><br></div></div></div></div>

--000000000000bcbfd3058e125307--


From nobody Fri Jul 19 22:06:54 2019
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Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2019 07:06:47 +0200
From: Willy Tarreau <w@1wt.eu>
To: Martin Thomson <mt@lowentropy.net>
Cc: quic@ietf.org, brent.bilger@verizon.com
Subject: Re: DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
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Hi Martin!

On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 02:10:29PM -0400, Martin Thomson wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 19, 2019, at 12:04, Willy Tarreau wrote:
> > Hi Ian,
> > 
> > On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 11:31:26AM -0400, Ian Swett wrote:
> > > QUIC's Retry token is designed for this purpose.  I believe that should be
> > > sufficient and make QUIC equivalent to TCP.
> > 
> > The important difference is that only the QUIC stack can process this,
> > so the packet has to pass all the way through the whole stack to userland,
> > the protection cannot be offloaded to lower layers nor to an external
> > device. This remains a pretty big concern to me.
> 
> The design only requires cooperation between the device that generates the
> Retry and the eventual endpoint.  That doesn't require heavy processing
> before offload.  As Ian says, there is work going on to formalize a protocol
> between the two, but this could be an extremely simple process if you want to
> keep the two at arms length.

I've read Martin's proposal when he sent it a few months ago. But honestly
I think the proposal tries hard to work around some protocol weaknesses
that were purposely created to prevent linkability, and I remain convinced
that all of this is not heading in the right direction.

I think that another approach would be to let the server ask enforce some
verifiable computational cost on the client. For example, an initial packet
could contain a 32-bit nonce and a 32-bit hash of the header+nonce. The
server would demand that the hash starts with a given number of zeroes
(i.e. the hash is inferior to a limit). The default value could for example
be 8 zeroes, meaning the client on average needs to try 256 different nonces
before finding a valid hash. For the server, this means that when an initial
packet comes, it just has to check the hash. If it doesn't match, no need to
parse the packet nor to even reply. If the server is under heavy load or
attack, it could send back a retry packet indicating how many zeroes it
expects in the hash (e.g. try again with at least 12 zeroes, or 4096 tries).
Just like an MTU, the expected number of zeroes for a server could be saved
locally for future connections.

And what is nice with such a method is that it becomes easy to deal with
DDoS : all a front equipment has to do is to:
  - check incoming hashes and drop packets which do not match ;
  - take a fingerprint of the headers or just the hash itself, and
    keep a packet counter for such fingerprint over a period, and drop
    those that are too frequent (so that precomputed hashes cannot be
    used to form an attack)
  - optionally respond with a retry packet informing about the expected
    hash value, or just let valid packet with insufficient hashes pass
    through since there will be much less of them (typically 1/256 for
    random packets).

A very inexpensive hash for small messages should be used for this, it
doesn't even need to be very secure, it just needs not to be reversible
(i.e. not a CRC32). Possibly that even a MAC algorithm like Poly1305
could be a good candidate for example as it's inexpensive for small
devices and would be cheap on servers to validate messages as they
arrive. What matters is that verifying small messages is extremely
fast, much faster than the time it takes to serialize a packet.

The default number of leading zeroes would just need to be calculated
so that there is no impact on smallest devices used for browsing nor
on proxies. On the server side, gateways could be configured to use a
much lower value in agreement with the servers. And similarly a server
working well could advertise in responses "no need to spend your time
hashing too much, I'm fine with X zeroes".

But typically if a regular 4-core hacked hosted server on the net cannot
compute more than a few tens of thousands packets per second, we'll
greatly reduce the risk of DDoS compared even to TCP today (which has
become easy to deal with).

Just my two cents,
Willy


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Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2019 07:08:56 +0200
From: Willy Tarreau <w@1wt.eu>
To: Ian Swett <ianswett=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, brent.bilger@verizon.com
Subject: Re: DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
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Hi Ian,

On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 01:47:19PM -0400, Ian Swett wrote:
> There's a proposed draft(draft-duke-quic-load-balancers
> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-duke-quic-load-balancers/>) on QUIC
> load balancers, so I don't think the above is necessarily true.

Yes, as mentioned in my other message I've already seen this one.

> > > Also, QUIC requires much larger Initial packet sizes than a TCP SYN,
> > > increasing the amount of work an attacker has to expend.
> >
> > Sure but not that much. Even with an initial packet as large as 200 bytes
> > you still feed the whole stack at 5 million packets per second on a single
> > 10G port. This is a lot to pass through the whole stack, not counting the
> > potential crypto that is associated with it nor building the response, of
> > course. But we'll see.
> >
> >
> The minimum is 1200 bytes FYI.

My understanding was that it was the minimum supported so that it should
be the maximum used by clients. i.e. a valid initial packet can be much
smaller than this. But I could be mistaken as I've had a hard time keeping
up with the progress made on the protocol.

Thanks,
Willy


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From: Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 22:53:37 -0700
Message-ID: <CACsn0ckdMOSCaBWM7kkRPGhO4XtRbyrLMV+hms60BECL=KboHQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
To: Willy Tarreau <w@1wt.eu>
Cc: Martin Thomson <mt@lowentropy.net>, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, brent.bilger@verizon.com
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On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 10:07 PM Willy Tarreau <w@1wt.eu> wrote:
>
> Hi Martin!
>
> On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 02:10:29PM -0400, Martin Thomson wrote:
> > On Fri, Jul 19, 2019, at 12:04, Willy Tarreau wrote:
> > > Hi Ian,
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 11:31:26AM -0400, Ian Swett wrote:
> > > > QUIC's Retry token is designed for this purpose.  I believe that should be
> > > > sufficient and make QUIC equivalent to TCP.
> > >
> > > The important difference is that only the QUIC stack can process this,
> > > so the packet has to pass all the way through the whole stack to userland,
> > > the protection cannot be offloaded to lower layers nor to an external
> > > device. This remains a pretty big concern to me.
> >
> > The design only requires cooperation between the device that generates the
> > Retry and the eventual endpoint.  That doesn't require heavy processing
> > before offload.  As Ian says, there is work going on to formalize a protocol
> > between the two, but this could be an extremely simple process if you want to
> > keep the two at arms length.
>
> I've read Martin's proposal when he sent it a few months ago. But honestly
> I think the proposal tries hard to work around some protocol weaknesses
> that were purposely created to prevent linkability, and I remain convinced
> that all of this is not heading in the right direction.
>
> I think that another approach would be to let the server ask enforce some
> verifiable computational cost on the client. For example, an initial packet
> could contain a 32-bit nonce and a 32-bit hash of the header+nonce. The
> server would demand that the hash starts with a given number of zeroes
> (i.e. the hash is inferior to a limit). The default value could for example
> be 8 zeroes, meaning the client on average needs to try 256 different nonces
> before finding a valid hash. For the server, this means that when an initial
> packet comes, it just has to check the hash. If it doesn't match, no need to
> parse the packet nor to even reply. If the server is under heavy load or
> attack, it could send back a retry packet indicating how many zeroes it
> expects in the hash (e.g. try again with at least 12 zeroes, or 4096 tries).
> Just like an MTU, the expected number of zeroes for a server could be saved
> locally for future connections.

There is an implicit assumption here that special devices are needed
to deal with DDoS attacks. That assumption is wrong. See
https://blog.cloudflare.com/meet-gatebot-a-bot-that-allows-us-to-sleep/
for an approach that is far more capital efficient. You can drop
oodles and oodles of packets in eBPF filters. If you want to go to
kernel bypass you might be able to drop even more, and line rate FPGA
is doable at 40Gbits. Cloudflare doesn't do that, but I've talked to
some organizations that have for some other services.

Now let's consider the cost of responding to a QUIC ServerHello. It is
one signature and one ECDHE exchange. One core can do 500,000 of those
a second. A beefy server can devote two cores to the task of handling
the flood of a million packets per second, and the other 22 to other
miscellany.

Are you sure there is a problem here?

Sincerely,
Watson Ladd


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From: Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 23:09:16 -0700
Message-ID: <CACsn0cm81BGOM39Udbds7i+QEUdfQj2uyShkecqNrmi77k+HDA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
To: Willy Tarreau <w@1wt.eu>
Cc: Martin Thomson <mt@lowentropy.net>, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, brent.bilger@verizon.com
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On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 10:53 PM Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 10:07 PM Willy Tarreau <w@1wt.eu> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Martin!
> >
> > On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 02:10:29PM -0400, Martin Thomson wrote:
> > > On Fri, Jul 19, 2019, at 12:04, Willy Tarreau wrote:
> > > > Hi Ian,
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 11:31:26AM -0400, Ian Swett wrote:
> > > > > QUIC's Retry token is designed for this purpose.  I believe that should be
> > > > > sufficient and make QUIC equivalent to TCP.
> > > >
> > > > The important difference is that only the QUIC stack can process this,
> > > > so the packet has to pass all the way through the whole stack to userland,
> > > > the protection cannot be offloaded to lower layers nor to an external
> > > > device. This remains a pretty big concern to me.
> > >
> > > The design only requires cooperation between the device that generates the
> > > Retry and the eventual endpoint.  That doesn't require heavy processing
> > > before offload.  As Ian says, there is work going on to formalize a protocol
> > > between the two, but this could be an extremely simple process if you want to
> > > keep the two at arms length.
> >
> > I've read Martin's proposal when he sent it a few months ago. But honestly
> > I think the proposal tries hard to work around some protocol weaknesses
> > that were purposely created to prevent linkability, and I remain convinced
> > that all of this is not heading in the right direction.
> >
> > I think that another approach would be to let the server ask enforce some
> > verifiable computational cost on the client. For example, an initial packet
> > could contain a 32-bit nonce and a 32-bit hash of the header+nonce. The
> > server would demand that the hash starts with a given number of zeroes
> > (i.e. the hash is inferior to a limit). The default value could for example
> > be 8 zeroes, meaning the client on average needs to try 256 different nonces
> > before finding a valid hash. For the server, this means that when an initial
> > packet comes, it just has to check the hash. If it doesn't match, no need to
> > parse the packet nor to even reply. If the server is under heavy load or
> > attack, it could send back a retry packet indicating how many zeroes it
> > expects in the hash (e.g. try again with at least 12 zeroes, or 4096 tries).
> > Just like an MTU, the expected number of zeroes for a server could be saved
> > locally for future connections.
>
> There is an implicit assumption here that special devices are needed
> to deal with DDoS attacks. That assumption is wrong. See
> https://blog.cloudflare.com/meet-gatebot-a-bot-that-allows-us-to-sleep/
> for an approach that is far more capital efficient. You can drop
> oodles and oodles of packets in eBPF filters. If you want to go to
> kernel bypass you might be able to drop even more, and line rate FPGA
> is doable at 40Gbits. Cloudflare doesn't do that, but I've talked to
> some organizations that have for some other services.
>
> Now let's consider the cost of responding to a QUIC ServerHello. It is
> one signature and one ECDHE exchange. One core can do 500,000 of those
> a second. A beefy server can devote two cores to the task of handling
> the flood of a million packets per second, and the other 22 to other
> miscellany.

Unfortunately I was off by three orders of magnitude (prefix
confusion).  A core can only do 7,000 of these per second, so you
would need some more servers to handle the million packet flood with
complete responses (vs. filtering the attacking machines). The
conclusion that commodity hardware can filter DDoS beyond that rate I
do stand by.

>
> Are you sure there is a problem here?
>
> Sincerely,
> Watson Ladd



-- 
"Man is born free, but everywhere he is in chains".
--Rousseau.


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From: =?UTF-8?Q?T=C3=B6ma_Gavrichenkov?= <ximaera@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2019 09:37:00 +0300
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Subject: Re: DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
To: William Herrin <bill@herrin.us>
Cc: Ian Swett <ianswett=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, brent.bilger=40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org
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On Sat, Jul 20, 2019 at 3:57 AM William Herrin <bill@herrin.us> wrote:
>> However, mitigating a Server Hello DDoS attack towards a _client_ is
>> very complicated (if even possible) with QUIC, as opposed to TCP with
>> SYN/ACK floods.
>
> Would you elaborate on this? Considering that the quic client employs
> an ephemeral UDP port, what is the quic-specific threat model here?

That's a big assumption already.  Another (implicit) assumption is
that the ephemeral port generation algorithm built into a device
implements randomness properly (which is especially complicated in
IoT).

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gont-numeric-ids-generation-04

But anyway, ephemeral port number consists of just 15 bits and is
prone to brute force.  In TCP, we had initial sequence number which
could've been changed by a device near the border of the network,
along with the port, to ensure those are random enough, and that's
already 47 bits.  In QUIC, I don't see any way to reliably protect the
network border from such incidents without just blackholing the
device.

--
T=C3=B6ma


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From: =?UTF-8?Q?T=C3=B6ma_Gavrichenkov?= <ximaera@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2019 09:51:16 +0300
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Subject: Re: DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
To: Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com>
Cc: Willy Tarreau <w@1wt.eu>, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, brent.bilger@verizon.com, Martin Thomson <mt@lowentropy.net>
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On Sat, Jul 20, 2019 at 9:09 AM Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com> wrote:
> A core can only do 7,000 of these per second, so you
> would need some more servers to handle the million packet flood with
> complete responses (vs. filtering the attacking machines).

You would need multiple servers anyway, because the world has seen
incidents over 1 Tbps (and even 400GbE is still just not there by the
way).  For instance, SYN flood attack seen by Cloudflare in April 2018
topped 942 Gbps with approximately 1000-octet packets (which is also
an evidence bandwidth isn't a bottleneck for SYN floods, packet rate
is).

https://blog.cloudflare.com/the-rise-of-multivector-amplifications/

You cannot handle that in a single machine.

--
T=C3=B6ma


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From: Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2019 23:57:53 -0700
Message-ID: <CACsn0cmFE4r=sOqqieBG26hJCdb6fMGWnAk3Ue7JH51hoeo-cQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
To: =?UTF-8?Q?T=C3=B6ma_Gavrichenkov?= <ximaera@gmail.com>
Cc: William Herrin <bill@herrin.us>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>,  brent.bilger=40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org,  Ian Swett <ianswett=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
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On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 11:37 PM T=C3=B6ma Gavrichenkov <ximaera@gmail.com>=
 wrote:
>
> On Sat, Jul 20, 2019 at 3:57 AM William Herrin <bill@herrin.us> wrote:
> >> However, mitigating a Server Hello DDoS attack towards a _client_ is
> >> very complicated (if even possible) with QUIC, as opposed to TCP with
> >> SYN/ACK floods.
> >
> > Would you elaborate on this? Considering that the quic client employs
> > an ephemeral UDP port, what is the quic-specific threat model here?
>
> That's a big assumption already.  Another (implicit) assumption is
> that the ephemeral port generation algorithm built into a device
> implements randomness properly (which is especially complicated in
> IoT).
>
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-gont-numeric-ids-generation-04
>
> But anyway, ephemeral port number consists of just 15 bits and is
> prone to brute force.  In TCP, we had initial sequence number which
> could've been changed by a device near the border of the network,
> along with the port, to ensure those are random enough, and that's
> already 47 bits.  In QUIC, I don't see any way to reliably protect the
> network border from such incidents without just blackholing the
> device.

Isn't the Connection ID just such a thing? Looking at
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-quic-transport-22#section-7.2
in conjunction with 17 the server sends a packet with the destination
ID that the client told it to use.

>
> --
> T=C3=B6ma
>


--=20
"Man is born free, but everywhere he is in chains".
--Rousseau.


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Subject: Re: DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
To: Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com>
Cc: William Herrin <bill@herrin.us>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>,  brent.bilger=40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org,  Ian Swett <ianswett=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
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On Sat, Jul 20, 2019 at 9:58 AM Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com> wrote:
> Isn't the Connection ID just such a thing?

No. Could be zero.

Also, the issue with predictable IDs is still there.

--
T=C3=B6ma


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Subject: Re: DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
To: Martin Thomson <mt@lowentropy.net>, Willy Tarreau <w@1wt.eu>
Cc: brent.bilger@verizon.com, quic@ietf.org
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On 20 July 2019 at 07.07.06, Willy Tarreau (w@1wt.eu) wrote:

I think that another approach would be to let the server ask enforce some
verifiable computational cost on the client. For example, an initial packet
could contain a 32-bit nonce and a 32-bit hash of the header+nonce. The
server would demand that the hash starts with a given number of zeroes
(i.e. the hash is inferior to a limit). The default value could for example
be 8 zeroes, meaning the client on average needs to try 256 different nonce=
s

before finding a valid hash.

You need to make that hash a hmac or similar with a pre-shared key, or an
extra roundtrip, otherwise you just use a precomputed table.  With a
roundtrip this would be an extension to Retry, with a pre-shared key it is
somewhat similar to my earlier email where you sign the OCID, but here you
don=E2=80=99t need proof-of-work, only proof-of-ownership (of the key).


Mikkel

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<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">On 20 July 2019 at 0=
7.07.06, Willy Tarreau (<a href=3D"mailto:w@1wt.eu">w@1wt.eu</a>) wrote:</d=
iv><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-s=
ize:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div> <div=
><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq" style=3D"font-family:Helvetic=
a,Arial;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weig=
ht:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-trans=
form:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><span><=
div><div></div><div>I think that another approach would be to let the serve=
r ask enforce some<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><br>ve=
rifiable computational cost on the client. For example, an initial packet<s=
pan class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><br>could contain a 32-bit=
 nonce and a 32-bit hash of the header+nonce. The<span class=3D"Apple-conve=
rted-space">=C2=A0</span><br>server would demand that the hash starts with =
a given number of zeroes<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>=
<br>(i.e. the hash is inferior to a limit). The default value could for exa=
mple<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><br>be 8 zeroes, mea=
ning the client on average needs to try 256 different nonces<span class=3D"=
Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><br>before finding a valid hash.</div><=
/div></span></blockquote></div><p>You need to make that hash a hmac or simi=
lar with a pre-shared key, or an extra roundtrip, otherwise you just use a =
precomputed table.=C2=A0 With a roundtrip this would be an extension to Ret=
ry, with a pre-shared key it is somewhat similar to my earlier email where =
you sign the OCID, but here you don=E2=80=99t need proof-of-work, only proo=
f-of-ownership (of the key).</p><p><br></p><p>Mikkel</p></body></html>

--000000000000f01368058e17c180--


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To: =?utf-8?B?TWlra2VsIEZhaG7DuGUgSsO4cmdlbnNlbg==?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [E] Re: DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
Thread-Topic: [E] Re: DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
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From: Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2019 10:30:26 -0700
Message-ID: <CACsn0cn6ZTQ_dCd9AXiFwjRi5QD9pey2COmvzrAhoRCfpX68Pg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
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Cc: Willy Tarreau <w@1wt.eu>, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, brent.bilger@verizon.com, Martin Thomson <mt@lowentropy.net>
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On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 11:51 PM T=C3=B6ma Gavrichenkov <ximaera@gmail.com>=
 wrote:
>
> On Sat, Jul 20, 2019 at 9:09 AM Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com> wrote=
:
> > A core can only do 7,000 of these per second, so you
> > would need some more servers to handle the million packet flood with
> > complete responses (vs. filtering the attacking machines).
>
> You would need multiple servers anyway, because the world has seen
> incidents over 1 Tbps (and even 400GbE is still just not there by the
> way).  For instance, SYN flood attack seen by Cloudflare in April 2018
> topped 942 Gbps with approximately 1000-octet packets (which is also
> an evidence bandwidth isn't a bottleneck for SYN floods, packet rate
> is).
>
> https://blog.cloudflare.com/the-rise-of-multivector-amplifications/
>
> You cannot handle that in a single machine.

Of course not. But I don't understand the magic properties of this box
that is supposed to be doing the filtering. What actually happened is
anycast spread that attack geographically, and then ECMP spread it
over machines, and then the attacking machines were blackholed with
firewall rules determined by statistical analysis of incoming packets.
The changes to the protocol being discussed are not going to reduce
the damage 1 Tbps does to a site with a smaller connection: you are
going to need multiple links, you are going to need to have rules to
efficiently drop the attack traffic.

What is the setup where these issues are a problem? I get that you
might not want to share, but it helps think about solutions if we know
more about the problem.

As for predictability: don't use devices that can't make random numbers.


>
> --
> T=C3=B6ma



--
"Man is born free, but everywhere he is in chains".
--Rousseau.


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From: =?UTF-8?Q?T=C3=B6ma_Gavrichenkov?= <ximaera@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2019 21:14:39 +0300
Message-ID: <CALZ3u+Z3R=FPyH8co5vDhnoa3T62A9ou4g5=UX6myywPHENhog@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
To: Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com>
Cc: Willy Tarreau <w@1wt.eu>, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, brent.bilger@verizon.com, Martin Thomson <mt@lowentropy.net>
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Peace,

On Sat, Jul 20, 2019 at 8:30 PM Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 11:51 PM T=C3=B6ma Gavrichenkov <ximaera@gmail.co=
m> wrote:
> > You cannot handle that in a single machine.
>
> Of course not. But I don't understand the magic properties of this box
> that is supposed to be doing the filtering.

Yes, the properties of a filtering box are hardly relevant.  Why?


> What actually happened is
> anycast spread that attack geographically, and then ECMP spread it
> over machines, and then the attacking machines were blackholed with
> firewall rules determined by statistical analysis of incoming packets.

Statistical analysis is generally useless against SYN flood.
It was useful in the 942 Gbps case just because the attacker was dumb
enough to try to multiply the bandwidth by adding payload to a SYN
segment, thus exposing it to a simple packet length filter.

With QUIC, an attacker won't be able to make such a mistake.


> As for predictability: don't use devices that can't make random numbers.

1) Is this when we ban RIOT from participating in IETF hackathons?

https://github.com/RIOT-OS/RIOT/blob/637bbdd9856c14cb8c56a6191253363d53f54a=
9f/sys/random/random.c#L42
https://github.com/RIOT-OS/RIOT/blob/637bbdd9856c14cb8c56a6191253363d53f54a=
9f/sys/include/random.h#L37

2) This is not how companies choose MRI devices or any other
industrial IoT stuff.  I don't even think they *could* evaluate such a
criteria, but even if they could, they wouldn't.

3) Even worse, DDoS mitigation is widely believed to be a
responsibility of an access network, and I can't imagine circumstances
under which that ISP would be asked by their client if the latter
should order an expensive device or not.

--
T=C3=B6ma


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From: Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2019 12:22:20 -0700
Message-ID: <CACsn0cko1WXzXXnOexx7gSia-BV0rThQXbtQ5fsU_8GRfzDHjw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
To: =?UTF-8?Q?T=C3=B6ma_Gavrichenkov?= <ximaera@gmail.com>
Cc: Willy Tarreau <w@1wt.eu>, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, brent.bilger@verizon.com, Martin Thomson <mt@lowentropy.net>
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On Sat, Jul 20, 2019 at 11:14 AM T=C3=B6ma Gavrichenkov <ximaera@gmail.com>=
 wrote:
>
> Peace,
>
> On Sat, Jul 20, 2019 at 8:30 PM Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com> wrote=
:
> > On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 11:51 PM T=C3=B6ma Gavrichenkov <ximaera@gmail.=
com> wrote:
> > > You cannot handle that in a single machine.
> >
> > Of course not. But I don't understand the magic properties of this box
> > that is supposed to be doing the filtering.
>
> Yes, the properties of a filtering box are hardly relevant.  Why?

It's relevant because unless I understand the setup and the
constraints, I don't understand the problem. Clearly commodity servers
can drop packets en masse. But for some reason this isn't a solution.
There are constraints here that make run lots of load balancers going
back to a few servers also not a solution. Is the ask that we need a
way to filter packets associated with flows that can be interpreted by
boxes without any setup between boxes and server?

>
>
> > What actually happened is
> > anycast spread that attack geographically, and then ECMP spread it
> > over machines, and then the attacking machines were blackholed with
> > firewall rules determined by statistical analysis of incoming packets.
>
> Statistical analysis is generally useless against SYN flood.
> It was useful in the 942 Gbps case just because the attacker was dumb
> enough to try to multiply the bandwidth by adding payload to a SYN
> segment, thus exposing it to a simple packet length filter.
>
> With QUIC, an attacker won't be able to make such a mistake.

How would your solution (which you claim works for TCP but not QUIC)
handle a SYN flood?

>
>
> > As for predictability: don't use devices that can't make random numbers=
.
>
> 1) Is this when we ban RIOT from participating in IETF hackathons?
>
> https://github.com/RIOT-OS/RIOT/blob/637bbdd9856c14cb8c56a6191253363d53f5=
4a9f/sys/random/random.c#L42
> https://github.com/RIOT-OS/RIOT/blob/637bbdd9856c14cb8c56a6191253363d53f5=
4a9f/sys/include/random.h#L37
>
> 2) This is not how companies choose MRI devices or any other
> industrial IoT stuff.  I don't even think they *could* evaluate such a
> criteria, but even if they could, they wouldn't.
>
> 3) Even worse, DDoS mitigation is widely believed to be a
> responsibility of an access network, and I can't imagine circumstances
> under which that ISP would be asked by their client if the latter
> should order an expensive device or not.
>
> --
> T=C3=B6ma


--
"Man is born free, but everywhere he is in chains".
--Rousseau.


From nobody Sat Jul 20 17:45:29 2019
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Issues
------
* quicwg/base-drafts (+9/-6/=F0=9F=92=AC19)
  9 issues created:
  - Separate HTTP/3 stream errors from connection errors. (by DaanDeMeyer)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2911 =

  - PATH_CHALLENGE timer period (by gorryfair)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2910 =

  - Path Migration makes unjustified assumptions about a new path. (by gorr=
yfair)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2909 =

  - Why is Min RTT kept for the connection lifetime? (by gorryfair)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2908 =

  - Pseudo-code for SetLossDetectionTimer looks odd (by jlaine)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2906 =

  - Tradeoffs with padding (by martinthomson)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2905 =

  - Small clarification in 12.2 Coalescing Packets (by anrossi)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2900 =

  - Sample offset incorrect post draft-22 (by mjoras)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2899 =

  - DCID Len's description should be updated in draft-ietf-quic-transport-2=
2 (by mengguer)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2897 =


  9 issues received 19 new comments:
  - #2900 Small clarification in 12.2 Coalescing Packets (8 by DavidSchinaz=
i, martinthomson, mikkelfj, ianswett, nibanks)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2900 [-transport] =

  - #2789 Use a higher seed RTT for new paths (3 by gorryfair, ianswett)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2789 [-recovery] [design] =

  - #2899 Sample offset incorrect post draft-20 (2 by mjoras, larseggert)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2899 =

  - #2863 unrecoverable loss pattern leads to deadlock (1 by tatsuhiro-t)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2863 [-transport] [design] =

  - #2890 HTTP/2 in Peer Denial of Service? (1 by martinthomson)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2890 [-tls] [-transport] [=
editorial] =

  - #2894 In Initial and Handshake packets, knowing undecryptable packets c=
ould accelerate handshakes with loss (1 by martinthomson)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2894 [-transport] =

  - #2895 Advise bundling a PING or other small ACK eliciting frame with In=
itials (1 by martinthomson)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2895 [-recovery] =

  - #2897 DCID Len's description should be updated in draft-ietf-quic-trans=
port-22 (1 by martinthomson)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2897 [-transport] [editori=
al] =

  - #2906 Pseudo-code for SetLossDetectionTimer looks odd (1 by ianswett)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2906 [-recovery] =


  6 issues closed:
  - Sample offset incorrect post draft-20 https://github.com/quicwg/base-dr=
afts/issues/2899 [-tls] [editorial] =

  - H3 has a stale reference to STREAM_ID_ERROR https://github.com/quicwg/b=
ase-drafts/issues/2815 [-http] =

  - Crypto Retransmission Timeout interacts poorly with Congestion Control =
https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2886 [-recovery] =

  - Recovery would be simpler if the Handshake timer was unified with the P=
TO timer https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2650 [-recovery] [des=
ign] =

  - Crypto timeout value should include rttvar https://github.com/quicwg/ba=
se-drafts/issues/2648 [-recovery] [design] =

  - DCID Len's description should be updated in draft-ietf-quic-transport-2=
2 https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2897 [-transport] [editorial=
] =




Pull requests
-------------
* quicwg/base-drafts (+7/-6/=F0=9F=92=AC12)
  7 pull requests submitted:
  - Fix Recovery Pseudocode (by ianswett)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2907 [-recovery] [editorial] =

  - Add one to sample offset for header protection (by martinthomson)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2904 [-tls] [editorial] =

  - Remove Incorrect Sentence in Coalescing Section (by nibanks)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2903 =

  - Fix lack of exponential backoff in pseudocode (by ianswett)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2902 [-recovery] [editorial] =

  - Fix typo (by tandf)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2901 =

  - HTTP Upgrade in H3 is silliness (by LPardue)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2898 =

  - Move wasteful packet stuff to -transport (by martinthomson)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2896 [-tls] [-transport] [ed=
itorial] =


  8 pull requests received 12 new comments:
  - #2907 Fix Recovery Pseudocode (4 by martinthomson, ianswett)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2907 [-recovery] [editorial] =

  - #2896 Move wasteful packet stuff to -transport (2 by martinthomson, zz8=
5)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2896 [-tls] [-transport] [ed=
itorial] =

  - #2881 Explain asymmetric confirmation condition (1 by ianswett)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2881 [-transport] [design] =

  - #2662 Replace HTTP_MALFORMED_FRAME error code (1 by LPardue)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2662 [-http] [design] =

  - #2893 Remove DoS vector for spoofed connection migration (1 by erickinn=
ear)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2893 =

  - #2867 Tighten HEADERS and DATA frame order requirements. (1 by bencebek=
y)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2867 [-http] =

  - #2903 Remove Incorrect Sentence in Coalescing Section (1 by martinthoms=
on)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2903 [-transport] =

  - #2878 Initial secrets do not change after Retry (1 by ianswett)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2878 [-tls] [-transport] [de=
sign] =


  6 pull requests merged:
  - Fix typo
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2901 [-tls] [editorial] =

  - Add one to sample offset for header protection
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2904 [-tls] [editorial] =

  - Fix HPACK xref
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2865 [-http] =

  - Fix lack of exponential backoff in pseudocode
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2902 [-recovery] [editorial] =

  - Don't state QUIC error codes in HTTP/3
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2866 [-http] [editorial] =

  - Merge Crypto timeout and PTO
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2806 [-recovery] [design] =



Repositories tracked by this digest:
-----------------------------------
* https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts

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<body>
<h1>Sunday July 21, 2019</h1>


<h2>Issues</h2>

<h3>quicwg/base-drafts (+9/-6/=F0=9F=92=AC19)</h3>
  <p class=3D"new">9 issues created:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#2911 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2911">S=
eparate HTTP/3 stream errors from connection errors.</a> (by DaanDeMeyer) <=
/li>
  =

  <li>#2910 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2910">P=
ATH_CHALLENGE timer period</a> (by gorryfair) </li>
  =

  <li>#2909 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2909">P=
ath Migration makes unjustified assumptions about a new path.</a> (by gorry=
fair) </li>
  =

  <li>#2908 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2908">W=
hy is Min RTT kept for the connection lifetime?</a> (by gorryfair) </li>
  =

  <li>#2906 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2906">P=
seudo-code for SetLossDetectionTimer looks odd</a> (by jlaine) </li>
  =

  <li>#2905 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2905">T=
radeoffs with padding</a> (by martinthomson) </li>
  =

  <li>#2900 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2900">S=
mall clarification in 12.2 Coalescing Packets</a> (by anrossi) </li>
  =

  <li>#2899 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2899">S=
ample offset incorrect post draft-22</a> (by mjoras) </li>
  =

  <li>#2897 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2897">D=
CID Len&#x27;s description should be updated in draft-ietf-quic-transport-2=
2</a> (by mengguer) </li>
  </ul>

  <p>9 issues received 19 new comments:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#2900 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2900">S=
mall clarification in 12.2 Coalescing Packets</a> (8 by DavidSchinazi, mart=
inthomson, mikkelfj, ianswett, nibanks) <span class=3D"label" style=3D"back=
ground-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-transport</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2789 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2789">U=
se a higher seed RTT for new paths</a> (3 by gorryfair, ianswett) <span cla=
ss=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-recovery<=
/span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color: #ff=
ffff">design</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2899 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2899">S=
ample offset incorrect post draft-20</a> (2 by mjoras, larseggert) </li>
  =

  <li>#2863 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2863">u=
nrecoverable loss pattern leads to deadlock</a> (1 by tatsuhiro-t) <span cl=
ass=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-transpor=
t</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color: #=
ffffff">design</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2890 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2890">H=
TTP/2 in Peer Denial of Service?</a> (1 by martinthomson) <span class=3D"la=
bel" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-tls</span> <span =
class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-transp=
ort</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #0e8a16; color:=
 #ffffff">editorial</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2894 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2894">I=
n Initial and Handshake packets, knowing undecryptable packets could accele=
rate handshakes with loss</a> (1 by martinthomson) <span class=3D"label" st=
yle=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-transport</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2895 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2895">A=
dvise bundling a PING or other small ACK eliciting frame with Initials</a> =
(1 by martinthomson) <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca=
04; color: #000000">-recovery</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2897 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2897">D=
CID Len&#x27;s description should be updated in draft-ietf-quic-transport-2=
2</a> (1 by martinthomson) <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color:=
 #fbca04; color: #000000">-transport</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"=
background-color: #0e8a16; color: #ffffff">editorial</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2906 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2906">P=
seudo-code for SetLossDetectionTimer looks odd</a> (1 by ianswett) <span cl=
ass=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-recovery=
</span> </li>
  </ul>

  <p>6 issues closed:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#2899 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2899">S=
ample offset incorrect post draft-20</a> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"bac=
kground-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-tls</span> <span class=3D"label" s=
tyle=3D"background-color: #0e8a16; color: #ffffff">editorial</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2815 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2815">H=
3 has a stale reference to STREAM_ID_ERROR</a> <span class=3D"label" style=
=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-http</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2886 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2886">C=
rypto Retransmission Timeout interacts poorly with Congestion Control</a> <=
span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-r=
ecovery</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2650 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2650">R=
ecovery would be simpler if the Handshake timer was unified with the PTO ti=
mer</a> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #0=
00000">-recovery</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1=
d76db; color: #ffffff">design</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2648 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2648">C=
rypto timeout value should include rttvar</a> <span class=3D"label" style=
=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-recovery</span> <span class=
=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color: #ffffff">design</span=
> </li>
  =

  <li>#2897 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2897">D=
CID Len&#x27;s description should be updated in draft-ietf-quic-transport-2=
2</a> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000=
000">-transport</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #0e=
8a16; color: #ffffff">editorial</span> </li>
  </ul>



<h2>Pull requests</h2>
<h3>quicwg/base-drafts (+7/-6/=F0=9F=92=AC12)</h3>
  <p class=3D"new">7 pull requests submitted:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#2907 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2907">Fix=
 Recovery Pseudocode</a> (by ianswett) <span class=3D"label" style=3D"backg=
round-color: #fbca04; color: #">-recovery</span> <span class=3D"label" styl=
e=3D"background-color: #0e8a16; color: #">editorial</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2904 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2904">Add=
 one to sample offset for header protection</a> (by martinthomson) <span cl=
ass=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #">-tls</span> <sp=
an class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #0e8a16; color: #">editorial<=
/span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2903 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2903">Rem=
ove Incorrect Sentence in Coalescing Section</a> (by nibanks) </li>
  =

  <li>#2902 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2902">Fix=
 lack of exponential backoff in pseudocode</a> (by ianswett) <span class=3D=
"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #">-recovery</span> <spa=
n class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #0e8a16; color: #">editorial</=
span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2901 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2901">Fix=
 typo</a> (by tandf) </li>
  =

  <li>#2898 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2898">HTT=
P Upgrade in H3 is silliness</a> (by LPardue) </li>
  =

  <li>#2896 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2896">Mov=
e wasteful packet stuff to -transport</a> (by martinthomson) <span class=3D=
"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #">-tls</span> <span cla=
ss=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #">-transport</span=
> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #0e8a16; color: #">edito=
rial</span> </li>
  </ul>

  <p>8 pull requests received 12 new comments:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#2907 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2907">Fix=
 Recovery Pseudocode</a> (4 by martinthomson, ianswett) <span class=3D"labe=
l" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-recovery</span> <sp=
an class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #0e8a16; color: #ffffff">edit=
orial</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2896 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2896">Mov=
e wasteful packet stuff to -transport</a> (2 by martinthomson, zz85) <span =
class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-tls</s=
pan> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #0000=
00">-transport</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #0e8=
a16; color: #ffffff">editorial</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2881 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2881">Exp=
lain asymmetric confirmation condition</a> (1 by ianswett) <span class=3D"l=
abel" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-transport</span>=
 <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color: #ffffff">=
design</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2662 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2662">Rep=
lace HTTP_MALFORMED_FRAME error code</a> (1 by LPardue) <span class=3D"labe=
l" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-http</span> <span c=
lass=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color: #ffffff">design</=
span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2893 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2893">Rem=
ove DoS vector for spoofed connection migration</a> (1 by erickinnear) </li>
  =

  <li>#2867 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2867">Tig=
hten HEADERS and DATA frame order requirements.</a> (1 by bencebeky) <span =
class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-http</=
span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2903 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2903">Rem=
ove Incorrect Sentence in Coalescing Section</a> (1 by martinthomson) <span=
 class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-trans=
port</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2878 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2878">Ini=
tial secrets do not change after Retry</a> (1 by ianswett) <span class=3D"l=
abel" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-tls</span> <span=
 class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-trans=
port</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color=
: #ffffff">design</span> </li>
  </ul>

  <p>6 pull requests merged:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#2901 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2901">Fix=
 typo</a> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: =
#">-tls</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #0e8a16; co=
lor: #">editorial</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2904 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2904">Add=
 one to sample offset for header protection</a> <span class=3D"label" style=
=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #">-tls</span> <span class=3D"label" =
style=3D"background-color: #0e8a16; color: #">editorial</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2865 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2865">Fix=
 HPACK xref</a> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; c=
olor: #">-http</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2902 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2902">Fix=
 lack of exponential backoff in pseudocode</a> <span class=3D"label" style=
=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #">-recovery</span> <span class=3D"la=
bel" style=3D"background-color: #0e8a16; color: #">editorial</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2866 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2866">Don=
&#x27;t state QUIC error codes in HTTP/3</a> <span class=3D"label" style=3D=
"background-color: #fbca04; color: #">-http</span> <span class=3D"label" st=
yle=3D"background-color: #0e8a16; color: #">editorial</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2806 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2806">Mer=
ge Crypto timeout and PTO</a> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-col=
or: #fbca04; color: #">-recovery</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"back=
ground-color: #1d76db; color: #">design</span> </li>
  </ul>


<h2>Repositories tracked by this digest:</h2>
<ul class=3D"repos">
  <li><a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts">https://github.com/=
quicwg/base-drafts</a></li>
  </ul>
</body>
</html>

--===============8085425235824392727==--


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From: =?UTF-8?Q?T=C3=B6ma_Gavrichenkov?= <ximaera@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 04:21:33 +0300
Message-ID: <CALZ3u+ZUShOZ3sYR84SFdQiFSdabuUZ4T=+kw0smfcfKu3YOuQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
To: Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com>
Cc: IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, brent.bilger@verizon.com
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Peace,

On Sat, Jul 20, 2019 at 10:22 PM Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Yes, the properties of a filtering box are hardly relevant.  Why?
>
> It's relevant because unless I understand the setup and the
> constraints, I don't understand the problem. Clearly commodity servers
> can drop packets en masse. But for some reason this isn't a solution.

Err...?  It *is*.
(Of course, if you don't need the HTTPS private key to generate Retry.)

Special hardware can also drop packets en masse.  Sometimes it's just
the same commodity in a nice designer box.  What's the difference?


> > With QUIC, an attacker won't be able to make such a mistake.
>
> How would your solution (which you claim works for TCP but not QUIC)
> handle a SYN flood?

It'll do that via retries.  SYN flood isn't a big issue here, SYN/ACK flood=
 is.

That being said, with SYN flood, we could've been dropping anything
bigger than a proper short SYN, while with QUIC, we'll have to handle
20x more traffic for the same purpose.  Like I said before, the
assumption that raising the initial packet size up to 1200 octets
helps to reduce the footprint of DDoS attacks doesn't happen to be
true.

--
T=C3=B6ma


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From: Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 13:48:22 -0400
Message-ID: <CANatvzzTg0dLuvJD1Cxmfm6FJrrR1Jo8i_LjiZJB2S64GLd+Kw@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-httpbis-priority-01.txt
To: HTTP Working Group <ietf-http-wg@w3.org>, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
Cc: Lucas Pardue <lucaspardue.24.7@gmail.com>
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Hello all,

Lucas and I have submitted the -01 draft of the Priority header field propo=
sal.

    https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kazuho-httpbis-priority/

The repository of the draft is at:
https://github.com/kazuho/draft-kazuho-httpbis-priority

As we have discussed on the mailing list [1], there are now 8 urgency
levels. We have also renamed these levels from "blocking" / "document"
/ "non-blocking" to "prerequisite" / "default" / "supplementary", to
make them less browser-centric while retaining their semantics.

Please let us know what you think. Thank you in advance.

[1] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/ietf-http-wg/2019JulSep/thread.htm=
l#msg21

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
Date: 2019=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8821=E6=97=A5(=E6=97=A5) 13:32
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-httpbis-priority-01.txt
To: Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>, Lucas Pardue <lucaspardue.24.7@gmail.=
com>



A new version of I-D, draft-kazuho-httpbis-priority-01.txt
has been successfully submitted by Kazuho Oku and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:           draft-kazuho-httpbis-priority
Revision:       01
Title:          The Priority HTTP Header Field
Document date:  2019-07-21
Group:          Individual Submission
Pages:          12
URL:
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-kazuho-httpbis-priority-01.txt
Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kazuho-httpbis-prior=
ity/
Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kazuho-httpbis-priority-0=
1
Htmlized:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-kazuho-httpbis-priority
Diff:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-kazuho-httpbis-priority-01

Abstract:
   This document describes the Priority HTTP header field.  This header
   field can be used by endpoints to specify the absolute precedence of
   an HTTP response in an HTTP-version-independent way.




Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio=
n
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat



--=20
Kazuho Oku


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From: Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>
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Subject: Wanted: slides
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Hi,

if you are covering an issue discussion during our sessions, please send =
us your slides ASAP. Github PR against the wg-materials repo preferred.

Thanks,
Lars

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From nobody Sun Jul 21 23:23:26 2019
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Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 08:23:17 +0200
From: Willy Tarreau <w@1wt.eu>
To: Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com>
Cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?T=F6ma?= Gavrichenkov <ximaera@gmail.com>, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, brent.bilger@verizon.com, Martin Thomson <mt@lowentropy.net>
Subject: Re: DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
Message-ID: <20190722062317.GA26817@1wt.eu>
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Hi,

On Sat, Jul 20, 2019 at 10:30:26AM -0700, Watson Ladd wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 19, 2019 at 11:51 PM Töma Gavrichenkov <ximaera@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Sat, Jul 20, 2019 at 9:09 AM Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > A core can only do 7,000 of these per second, so you
> > > would need some more servers to handle the million packet flood with
> > > complete responses (vs. filtering the attacking machines).
> >
> > You would need multiple servers anyway, because the world has seen
> > incidents over 1 Tbps (and even 400GbE is still just not there by the
> > way).  For instance, SYN flood attack seen by Cloudflare in April 2018
> > topped 942 Gbps with approximately 1000-octet packets (which is also
> > an evidence bandwidth isn't a bottleneck for SYN floods, packet rate
> > is).
> >
> > https://blog.cloudflare.com/the-rise-of-multivector-amplifications/
> >
> > You cannot handle that in a single machine.
> 
> Of course not. But I don't understand the magic properties of this box
> that is supposed to be doing the filtering.

There is no magic involved. It's just that the application servers are
often unsuited to such a task because of the amount of work involved
through the whole stack, their sizing which matches application needs
more than network bandwidth, the fact that very commonly nowadays they
run in VM and that the hypervisor itself is unable to cope with line-rate
attacks etc. In practice you need to filter packet-based attacks at the
edge and prevent them from entering the network. For some content providers
who use ECMP traffic distribution, this means having a fast packet processing
layer on the front hosts themselves (either using XDP, or by dedicating a
set of NICs and CPU cores to DPDK, or running alternatives), or just doing
it on the front load-balancers since most of the time they're very close
to the edge and they need to protect themselves.

> What actually happened is
> anycast spread that attack geographically, and then ECMP spread it
> over machines, and then the attacking machines were blackholed with
> firewall rules determined by statistical analysis of incoming packets.
> The changes to the protocol being discussed are not going to reduce
> the damage 1 Tbps does to a site with a smaller connection: you are
> going to need multiple links, you are going to need to have rules to
> efficiently drop the attack traffic.

Absolutely. However 1 Tbps attacks are not that common. But certain
sites I know deal with around 10G several times a day. And while
some attacks are trivial to handle *when you have the bandwidth* (i.e.
all those that can quickly be evicted based on stateful filtering,
thus SYN-ACK, ACK, NTP/DNS amplification, etc), others are technically
simple but cost a lot (typically SYN floods). They cost a lot because
when packets appear normal you have to resort to solutions involving
responding SYN cookies, or randomly dropping and waiting for retranmits.
When you decide to send SYN cookies, it means that for 10G of traffic
inbound, you generate 10G outbound and that is damaging to your useful
trafic. When you randomly drop and wait for retransmits, it is damaging
for the user's experience.

Here what I'm seeing with QUIC is :
  - with the ability to migrate connection to a different IP address,
    existing stateful filtering will not work very well anymore until
    the connection ID is taken into account by equipments. In practice
    what will happen is that stateful filtering will continue to be used
    and only enforced during attacks. This way only users migrating during
    an attack will be affected and that will probably be acceptable to
    most sites.

  - if the only way to slow down attacks on the server side is to
    build a retry packet, this is exactly equivalent to SYN cookies, and
    it does not slow attacks down, it only allows to sort the good from
    the bad at a high cost.

Thus my suggestion to offset the packet production cost on the client in
order to limit to reasonable values. If even the most basic smartphone is
limited to 1000 connections per second, it will already be a lot. If a
hacked server participating to a botnet can do 10k connections per second,
that's trivial to deal with on the server side. Right now a gigabit connected
server can produce 1.488 million packets per second. Just take 10 of such
bots and you force the target server to 1) be able to cope with 10G of
SYN flood, and 2) produce 10G of parasitic SYN-ACK reducing the room for
useful trafic.

If we consider that a default limit to ~10k conn/s for a large client is
something acceptable to deal with during attacks, some devices will be
affected, these are intermediaries. But there are mainly two categories of
intermediaries, the server-side ones (e.g. haproxy, varnish), which are
very close to the servers or at least under the same authority, so it is
possible to configure a lower communication cost between them (i.e. in
the equipment configuration the difficulty just has to be lowered, knowing
that the server is OK with this). The other main category are on the client
side (e.g. Squid). These ones would probably learn from the most used servers
the accepted difficulty and will probably coalesce a number of connections,
thus not being too much impacted by this either.

That doesn't remove anything from the principle of the retry packet, it
just makes the retry packet needed only when the incoming one is considered
too cheap to compute. And doing this definitely allows servers to generate
the retry packets themselves without requiring that a smart front box does
all the job, because a stupid box can be configured to automatically drop
all packets with a difficulty below the default limit, and deliver only
other ones to the servers. The servers can then decide to adjust their
behaviour based on their load. But having to send a retry packet for
100% incoming packets or for 1% of them definitely is not the same job.

Regarding the risk of precomputed tables, I already thought about it and
I consider it's reasonably easy to deal with: the front filtering device
just has to implement per-signature counters and drop the too frequent
ones when under attack. Keep in mind that dealing with an attack doesn't
mean you want a perfect service and that nobody notices the problem. It
just means you're using statistical tools to maintain the highest ratio
of good traffic so that your activity is not affected by the attack, and
the attacker gives up and moves to another target.

I'm not claiming all of this is trivial, I'm just suggesting that we
don't reproduce some of the designs of the past which in a hostile
environment cause some trouble, and that we also consider modern
techniques that allow to offset costs between the attacker and the
victim. And I really think that forcing computation on the attacker is
effective. I've been doing this in the past using javascript to efficiently
slow down attacking browsers and you see that you can quickly turn an
armada of infected machines trying to assault you into an armada of
electric heaters. It may not be the nicest thing for the environment
but multiplying the size of server farms to deal with small attacks
is even worse.

Just my two cents,
Willy


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To: Ian Swett <ianswett=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [E] Re: DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
Thread-Topic: [E] Re: DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
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Subject: Re: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 11:01:53 -0400
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Hi,

On 2019-7-22, at 10:38, brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org =
wrote:
> But we can make QUIC much, much better than TCP because the first =
packet of the UDP connection that the server receives can =
pre-authenticate the client. Therefore, the server could: 1) allocate =
very little resource to the client to check that the client is =
authorized to connect, 2) eliminate the process intensive crypto for =
unauthorized clients, and 3) reject the connection immediately instead =
of waiting for some timeout.

how is the current Retry token mechanism not fulfilling this goal?

Thanks,
Lars


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Subject: Re: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
To: Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>, brent.bilger=40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org
Cc: brent.bilger@verizon.com, Ian Swett <ianswett=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>
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The Retry token forces the infrastructure to send data instead of black
holing.

Why don=E2=80=99t we look into optionally signing long OCIDs that can be us=
ed if
under attack and otherwise just serve as dumb randomness.

The 0-RTT token could also be used in case of an attack.

Mikkel

On 22 July 2019 at 17.02.22, Lars Eggert (lars@eggert.org) wrote:

Hi,

On 2019-7-22, at 10:38, brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org wrote:
> But we can make QUIC much, much better than TCP because the first packet
of the UDP connection that the server receives can pre-authenticate the
client. Therefore, the server could: 1) allocate very little resource to
the client to check that the client is authorized to connect, 2) eliminate
the process intensive crypto for unauthorized clients, and 3) reject the
connection immediately instead of waiting for some timeout.

how is the current Retry token mechanism not fulfilling this goal?

Thanks,
Lars

--0000000000006648ce058e469994
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<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">The Retry token forc=
es the infrastructure to send data instead of black holing.</div><div id=3D=
"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;colo=
r:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_c=
ustomfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0=
,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">Why don=E2=80=99t we look into optio=
nally signing long OCIDs that can be used if under attack and otherwise jus=
t serve as dumb randomness.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font=
-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;lin=
e-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:=
Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height=
:auto">The 0-RTT token could also be used in case of an attack.</div><div i=
d=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;=
color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div> Mikkel<div><b=
r><p class=3D"airmail_on">On 22 July 2019 at 17.02.22, Lars Eggert (<a href=
=3D"mailto:lars@eggert.org">lars@eggert.org</a>) wrote:</p> <blockquote typ=
e=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq"><span><div><div></div><div>Hi,
<br>
<br>On 2019-7-22, at 10:38, brent.bilger=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40verizon.com@=
dmarc.ietf.org">40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a> wrote:
<br>&gt; But we can make QUIC much, much better than TCP because the first =
packet of the UDP connection that the server receives can pre-authenticate =
the client. Therefore, the server could: 1) allocate very little resource t=
o the client to check that the client is authorized to connect, 2) eliminat=
e the process intensive crypto for unauthorized clients, and 3) reject the =
connection immediately instead of waiting for some timeout.
<br>
<br>how is the current Retry token mechanism not fulfilling this goal?
<br>
<br>Thanks,
<br>Lars
<br>
<br></div></div></span></blockquote></div></body></html>

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From: Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv@google.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 16:36:19 -0400
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Subject: WebTransport Side Meeting (Tuesday, 15:20)
To: dispatch@ietf.org, David Schinazi <dschinazi@google.com>
Cc: IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, HTTP Working Group <ietf-http-wg@w3.org>, hybi@ietf.org
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Hello everyone,

Today, at the dispatch working group meeting (18:10), I am going to present
WebTransport. WebTransport is a protocol framework that allows multiplexed
and datagram-oriented transport protocols to be used by the web
applications (think =E2=80=9CWebSocket for UDP=E2=80=9D).

Since it=E2=80=99s quite likely we will run out of time during dispatch, I
scheduled a side-meeting to discuss this in more depth. Below are the side
meeting details.

*Time:* Tuesday, 15:20 ~ 16:50
*Place:* Room C2 (21st floor)
*Organizers:* Victor Vasiliev, David Schinazi
*Agenda:*

   1. A more in-depth overview of WebTransport.
   2. Discussion of the overall design and the use cases.
   3. As time permits, some of the major outstanding design issues in Web
   transport, e.g.:
      - What fallback protocol to use?
      - How to multiplex streams and datagrams within a single connection?
      - Can we let web applications do their own congestion control?
      - Should WebTransport sessions have URLs associated with them?

As usual, here are some helpful links:

   - WebTransport overview:
   https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vvv-webtransport-overview-00
   - QuicTransport:
   https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vvv-webtransport-quic-00
   - Http3Transport:
   https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vvv-webtransport-http3-00
   - Web API Spec draft: https://wicg.github.io/web-transport/
   - Discussion on use cases:
   https://discourse.wicg.io/t/webtransport-proposal/3508

Cheers,
  Victor.

--000000000000f0ea9e058e4b0703
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hello everyone,<br><br>Today, at the dispatch working grou=
p meeting (18:10), I am going to present WebTransport. WebTransport is a pr=
otocol framework that allows multiplexed and datagram-oriented transport pr=
otocols to be used by the web applications (think =E2=80=9CWebSocket for UD=
P=E2=80=9D).<br><br>Since it=E2=80=99s quite likely we will run out of time=
 during dispatch, I scheduled a side-meeting to discuss this in more depth.=
 Below are the side meeting details.<br><br><b>Time:</b> Tuesday, 15:20 ~ 1=
6:50<br><b>Place:</b> Room C2 (21st floor)<br><b>Organizers:</b> Victor Vas=
iliev, David Schinazi<br><b>Agenda:</b><br><ol><li>A more in-depth overview=
 of WebTransport.</li><li>Discussion of the overall design and the use case=
s.</li><li>As time permits, some of the major outstanding design issues in =
Web transport, e.g.:</li><ul><li>What fallback protocol to use?</li><li>How=
 to multiplex streams and datagrams within a single connection?</li><li>Can=
 we let web applications do their own congestion control?</li><li>Should We=
bTransport sessions have URLs associated with them?</li></ul></ol>As usual,=
 here are some helpful links:<br><ul><li>WebTransport overview: <a href=3D"=
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vvv-webtransport-overview-00">https://too=
ls.ietf.org/html/draft-vvv-webtransport-overview-00</a></li><li>QuicTranspo=
rt: <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vvv-webtransport-quic-00">=
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vvv-webtransport-quic-00</a></li><li>Http=
3Transport: <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vvv-webtransport-h=
ttp3-00">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vvv-webtransport-http3-00</a></l=
i><li>Web API Spec draft: <a href=3D"https://wicg.github.io/web-transport/"=
>https://wicg.github.io/web-transport/</a></li><li>Discussion on use cases:=
 <a href=3D"https://discourse.wicg.io/t/webtransport-proposal/3508">https:/=
/discourse.wicg.io/t/webtransport-proposal/3508</a></li></ul>Cheers,<br>=C2=
=A0 Victor.<br></div>

--000000000000f0ea9e058e4b0703--


From nobody Mon Jul 22 14:00:26 2019
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Subject: Re: [hybi] WebTransport Side Meeting (Tuesday, 15:20)
To: Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, dispatch@ietf.org,  David Schinazi <dschinazi@google.com>
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On 7/22/19 1:36 PM, Victor Vasiliev wrote:
> Hello everyone,
> 
> Today, at the dispatch working group meeting (18:10), I am going to 
> present WebTransport. WebTransport is a protocol framework that allows 
> multiplexed and datagram-oriented transport protocols to be used by the 
> web applications (think “WebSocket for UDP”).

"Historically, web applications that needed bidirectional data stream
    between a client and a server could rely on WebSockets [RFC6455], a
    message-based protocol compatible with Web security model.  However,
    since the abstraction it provides is a single ordered stream of
    messages, it suffers from head-of-line blocking (HOLB), meaning that
    all messages must be sent and received in order even if they are
    independent and some of them are no longer needed.  This makes it a
    poor fit for latency sensitive applications which rely on partial
    reliability and stream independence for performance."

The HOLB isn't really entirely the case... RFC6455 ws allows arbitrary 
fragmentation of messages allowing interleaving with control frames.

ws-over-h2 allows you to can the h2 stream when you want as well.

" Each new stream would require a WebSocket handshake to agree on
       application protocol used, meaning that it would take at least one
       RTT for each new stream before the client can write to it."

Yes it was knowingly done as a hack to try to encourage uptake from 
browser vendors... it's not really integrated into the encapsulating 
protocol.

>   * WebTransport overview:
>     https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vvv-webtransport-overview-00
>   * QuicTransport:
>     https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vvv-webtransport-quic-00
>   * Http3Transport:
>     https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vvv-webtransport-http3-00

There's no h2 transport implementation?

Not everything that might want to use this will get h3 capability in a 
reasonable timeframe.  If there's more momentum behind it than RFC8441 
there's probably room for a generic long-lived bidirectional extension 
to h2 either reusing DATA or a new frame type.

It's a good idea to have it ride on other protocols.  Not doing this 
really hurt RFC6455 ws since deploying it usually needed extra, 
different servers with the attendant difficulties interoperating with 
other protocols.

I really suggest thinking through the effects of not having an RFC6455 
type subprotocol (unless I failed to spot it).  It really makes an 
implicit assumption about what the stream will carry that doesn't scale 
beyond one server carrying one thing.  That's not how things tend to pan 
out if the protocol is useful.  The url path could be hacked to imply 
the subprotocol but if that's not standardized it's still a mess.  And 
the subprotocol binding may be orthogonal to the url layout complicating 
things needlessly.

-Andy

>   * Web API Spec draft: https://wicg.github.io/web-transport/
>   * Discussion on use cases:
>     https://discourse.wicg.io/t/webtransport-proposal/3508
> 
> Cheers,
>    Victor.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> hybi mailing list
> hybi@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hybi
> 


From nobody Mon Jul 22 14:15:44 2019
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From: Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>
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Subject: Wiki for related activities
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Hi,

we've started a a wiki at =
https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/wiki/Related-Activities to collect =
information about the various QUIC-related proposals and activities in =
the wider IETF space. The intent is to make it easier for people to find =
these activities and join in.

Please add to this list and update the various items as needed.

Thanks,
Lars

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Subject: Re: [hybi] WebTransport Side Meeting (Tuesday, 15:20)
From: Eric Kinnear <ekinnear@apple.com>
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Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 17:29:09 -0400
Cc: Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, dispatch@ietf.org,  David Schinazi <dschinazi@google.com>, hybi@ietf.org, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, HTTP Working Group <ietf-http-wg@w3.org>
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> On Jul 22, 2019, at 4:59 PM, Andy Green <andy@warmcat.com> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On 7/22/19 1:36 PM, Victor Vasiliev wrote:
>> Hello everyone,
>> Today, at the dispatch working group meeting (18:10), I am going to =
present WebTransport. WebTransport is a protocol framework that allows =
multiplexed and datagram-oriented transport protocols to be used by the =
web applications (think =E2=80=9CWebSocket for UDP=E2=80=9D).
>=20
> "Historically, web applications that needed bidirectional data stream
>   between a client and a server could rely on WebSockets [RFC6455], a
>   message-based protocol compatible with Web security model.  However,
>   since the abstraction it provides is a single ordered stream of
>   messages, it suffers from head-of-line blocking (HOLB), meaning that
>   all messages must be sent and received in order even if they are
>   independent and some of them are no longer needed.  This makes it a
>   poor fit for latency sensitive applications which rely on partial
>   reliability and stream independence for performance."
>=20
> The HOLB isn't really entirely the case... RFC6455 ws allows arbitrary =
fragmentation of messages allowing interleaving with control frames.
>=20
> ws-over-h2 allows you to can the h2 stream when you want as well.
>=20
> " Each new stream would require a WebSocket handshake to agree on
>      application protocol used, meaning that it would take at least =
one
>      RTT for each new stream before the client can write to it."
>=20
> Yes it was knowingly done as a hack to try to encourage uptake from =
browser vendors... it's not really integrated into the encapsulating =
protocol.
>=20
>>  * WebTransport overview:
>>    https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vvv-webtransport-overview-00
>>  * QuicTransport:
>>    https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vvv-webtransport-quic-00
>>  * Http3Transport:
>>    https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vvv-webtransport-http3-00
>=20
> There's no h2 transport implementation?
>=20
> Not everything that might want to use this will get h3 capability in a =
reasonable timeframe.  If there's more momentum behind it than RFC8441 =
there's probably room for a generic long-lived bidirectional extension =
to h2 either reusing DATA or a new frame type.

Definitely agree! I know that we=E2=80=99ve been chatting a bit with =
Victor about =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kinnear-httpbis-http2-transport/ =
which aims to provide this, and I think it would be worth making sure =
that this works nicely with WebTransport.=20
-00 for that document covers effectively what you=E2=80=99d get with a =
new frame type, and -01 extends 8441 to cover more than just WebSockets =
with the extended CONNECT handshake.
I don=E2=80=99t have a particularly strong preference for the mechanism =
used, but rather care more about the outcome =E2=80=94 very much agree =
that this is a useful component.

Thanks,
Eric

>=20
> It's a good idea to have it ride on other protocols.  Not doing this =
really hurt RFC6455 ws since deploying it usually needed extra, =
different servers with the attendant difficulties interoperating with =
other protocols.
>=20
> I really suggest thinking through the effects of not having an RFC6455 =
type subprotocol (unless I failed to spot it).  It really makes an =
implicit assumption about what the stream will carry that doesn't scale =
beyond one server carrying one thing.  That's not how things tend to pan =
out if the protocol is useful.  The url path could be hacked to imply =
the subprotocol but if that's not standardized it's still a mess.  And =
the subprotocol binding may be orthogonal to the url layout complicating =
things needlessly.
>=20
> -Andy
>=20
>>  * Web API Spec draft: https://wicg.github.io/web-transport/
>>  * Discussion on use cases:
>>    https://discourse.wicg.io/t/webtransport-proposal/3508
>> Cheers,
>>   Victor.
>> _______________________________________________
>> hybi mailing list
>> hybi@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hybi
>=20


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To: Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>
Subject: Re: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
Thread-Topic: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
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On Jul 22, 2019, at 8:01 AM, Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org<mailto:lars@egger=
t.org>> wrote:

Hi,

On 2019-7-22, at 10:38, brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org<mailto:=
brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
But we can make QUIC much, much better than TCP because the first packet of=
 the UDP connection that the server receives can pre-authenticate the clien=
t. Therefore, the server could: 1) allocate very little resource to the cli=
ent to check that the client is authorized to connect, 2) eliminate the pro=
cess intensive crypto for unauthorized clients, and 3) reject the connectio=
n immediately instead of waiting for some timeout.

how is the current Retry token mechanism not fulfilling this goal?

If every server always requested a Retry token, it would be able to validat=
e that the source ID is not being spoofed. However,

  1.  It adds a round trip time to the connection (a stated goal is to elim=
inate this)
  2.  it does not prove that the client is authorized to access the client,
  3.  it requires that the server maintain a resource allocation for the cl=
ient until the client replies (which maybe never),
  4.  it enables scanning the internet to find QUIC servers, and
  5.  it leaks information about the server - information that may be used =
by an adversary to attack the server (e.g., that it is a certain Windows se=
rver that is vulnerable to some future Eternal Blue vulnerability).

Regards,
Brent


Thanks,
Lars





Brent Bliger
Director-Technology Verizon SDP
brent.bilger@verizon.com<mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com>






--_000_6352C686585B4D6B845AD855244BE971oneverizoncom_
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<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii"=
>
</head>
<body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break:=
 after-white-space;" class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<div><br class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">On Jul 22, 2019, at 8:01 AM, Lars Eggert &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:lars@eggert.org" class=3D"">lars@eggert.org</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">Hi,<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
On 2019-7-22, at 10:38, <a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmar=
c.ietf.org" class=3D"">
brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a> wrote:<br class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">But we can make QUIC much, much better=
 than TCP because the first packet of the UDP connection that the server re=
ceives can pre-authenticate the client. Therefore, the server could: 1) all=
ocate very little resource to the client
 to check that the client is authorized to connect, 2) eliminate the proces=
s intensive crypto for unauthorized clients, and 3) reject the connection i=
mmediately instead of waiting for some timeout.<br class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<br class=3D"">
how is the current Retry token mechanism not fulfilling this goal?<br class=
=3D"">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br class=3D"">
</div>
If every server always requested a Retry token, it would be able to validat=
e that the source ID is not being spoofed. However,&nbsp;</div>
<div>
<ol class=3D"MailOutline">
<li class=3D"">It adds a round trip time to the connection (a stated goal i=
s to eliminate this)</li><li class=3D"">it does not prove that the client i=
s authorized to access the client,&nbsp;</li><li class=3D"">it requires tha=
t the server maintain a resource allocation for the client until the client=
 replies (which maybe never),&nbsp;</li><li class=3D"">it enables scanning =
the internet to find QUIC servers, and&nbsp;</li><li class=3D"">it leaks in=
formation about the server - information that may be used by an adversary t=
o attack the server (e.g., that it is a certain Windows server that is vuln=
erable to some future Eternal Blue vulnerability).</li></ol>
</div>
<div><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Brent</div>
<div><br class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
Thanks,<br class=3D"">
Lars<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-c=
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To: Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>
Subject: Re: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
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From: Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 21:16:02 -0700
Message-ID: <CACsn0cmx+7OrmRMEMo7-rxPeZEx+=mw6+suur4E7y0zi1jwgVA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
To: brent.bilger=40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org
Cc: Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, brent.bilger@verizon.com, Ian Swett <ianswett=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
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On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 5:29 PM
<brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Jul 22, 2019, at 10:10 AM, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com> wrote:
>
> When you=E2=80=99re talking about pre-authentication, are you referring t=
o the 0-rtt stuff?
>
>
> 0-RTT is good stuff. It reduces time for a device that=E2=80=99s already =
known to be authorized to connect to the server.
>
> Part of the problem is to stop resource DoS. The other part is about info=
rmation leakage.
>
> Let=E2=80=99s assume a time when all website use QUIC and let's take an a=
dversary who has just learned about a vulnerability in Wordpress. The adver=
sary wants to scan the Internet finding Wordpress sites. Now, if the QUIC c=
onnection required pre-authentication, then the server would be black to th=
e connection and the adversary could not determine if the site uses Wordpre=
ss. But, as it stands today, in this future time, the adversary scans the I=
nternet, connects to the server, and is handed a Wordpress login screen. No=
w the adversary knows where to attack.

If connection requires preauthentication then no one can see the site, no?

>
> In the enterprise it is a little different. Companies implement reverse p=
roxies to try to protect servers from unauthorized users. But what if the s=
ervers required a pre-authentication token. Then, reverse proxies would not=
 be needed.

So I think there are two different things here, or maybe I'm misunderstandi=
ng:
1: We have servers that have a limited number of clients that will
ever want to connect to them, and want to enable other devices to
filter the traffic, so need some mechanism that enables a middlebox to
filter.
2: We have servers generally available to the public and are concerned
that the QUIC version of a SYN flood can't be dealt with (despite
evidence to the contrary).

I don't know much about how Cloudflare (my place of employment)  deals
with 2 but hopefully some people who do/implementors can speak up
about how much of a problem it is. But 1 is I think very much a
nongoal: middlebox ossification is part of the reason we have QUIC.

Sincerely,
Watson Ladd


From nobody Tue Jul 23 05:21:15 2019
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To: Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
Thread-Topic: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
Thread-Index: AQHVQO2TMeh9llpV6EqU+Dk6tm4oPqbYDioAgACHhoA=
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 12:21:05 +0000
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From: Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>
To: "brent.bilger@verizon.com" <brent.bilger@verizon.com>, Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com>
CC: "brent.bilger=40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org" <brent.bilger=40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, "brent.bilger@verizon.com" <brent.bilger@verizon.com>, Ian Swett <ianswett=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
Thread-Topic: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
Thread-Index: AQHVQO2o7IJCZ4s53kuA0LJW4b7AGKbXmNEAgACHhoCAABFu5A==
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 13:26:21 +0000
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References: <21E3AE84-02C5-4943-A88E-B62329E21002@one.verizon.com> <CAKcm_gMBGdv2p4afhPb8tztBZaBQdwtwTJ2tWQ+xV1xr=q8viQ@mail.gmail.com> <507D5DB7-EDF2-4429-A518-604A377F92D9@one.verizon.com> <9BF2DC9D-F14C-4451-9191-1A1557556691@fb.com> <B3599409-72E7-4E15-9549-93663CDC561A@one.verizon.com> <CACsn0cmx+7OrmRMEMo7-rxPeZEx+=mw6+suur4E7y0zi1jwgVA@mail.gmail.com>, <9DC40032-3852-4237-A621-5C6B1102E74F@one.verizon.com>
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I'm trying to understand how anything was pre-authenticated without sufferi=
ng from all of the same problems.

How would such pre-authentication be done in practice, especially in scenar=
ios where the server doesn't have a whitelist of clients, and that service =
desires traffic from non-malicious clients?

-=3DR

Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/ghei36>

________________________________
From: brent.bilger@verizon.com <brent.bilger@verizon.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2019 8:21:05 AM
To: Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com>
Cc: brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org <brent.bilger=3D40verizon.c=
om@dmarc.ietf.org>; Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>; quic@ietf.org <quic@ietf.o=
rg>; brent.bilger@verizon.com <brent.bilger@verizon.com>; Ian Swett <ianswe=
tt=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy



On Jul 22, 2019, at 9:16 PM, Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com<mailto:wats=
onbladd@gmail.com>> wrote:

On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 5:29 PM
<brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org<mailto:brent.bilger=3D40verizo=
n.com@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:



On Jul 22, 2019, at 10:10 AM, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com<mailto:fenix@fb.co=
m>> wrote:

When you=92re talking about pre-authentication, are you referring to the 0-=
rtt stuff?


0-RTT is good stuff. It reduces time for a device that=92s already known to=
 be authorized to connect to the server.

Part of the problem is to stop resource DoS. The other part is about inform=
ation leakage.

Let=92s assume a time when all website use QUIC and let's take an adversary=
 who has just learned about a vulnerability in Wordpress. The adversary wan=
ts to scan the Internet finding Wordpress sites. Now, if the QUIC connectio=
n required pre-authentication, then the server would be black to the connec=
tion and the adversary could not determine if the site uses Wordpress. But,=
 as it stands today, in this future time, the adversary scans the Internet,=
 connects to the server, and is handed a Wordpress login screen. Now the ad=
versary knows where to attack.

If connection requires preauthentication then no one can see the site, no?


In the enterprise it is a little different. Companies implement reverse pro=
xies to try to protect servers from unauthorized users. But what if the ser=
vers required a pre-authentication token. Then, reverse proxies would not b=
e needed.

So I think there are two different things here, or maybe I'm misunderstandi=
ng:
1: We have servers that have a limited number of clients that will
ever want to connect to them, and want to enable other devices to
filter the traffic, so need some mechanism that enables a middlebox to
filter.

No middle box! Pre-authentication makes servers self-defending. Lack of pre=
-authentication is why we have middle boxes.

2: We have servers generally available to the public and are concerned
that the QUIC version of a SYN flood can't be dealt with (despite
evidence to the contrary).

Companies and website owners have to pay for anti-DoS services from the lik=
es of Verizon and others BECAUSE servers listen to all clients. With pre-au=
thentication, the need to have an anti-DoS service would be greatly reduced=
 because servers would not respond to unauthorized clients.

And the point about information leakage is important, too.

Brent


I don't know much about how Cloudflare (my place of employment)  deals
with 2 but hopefully some people who do/implementors can speak up
about how much of a problem it is. But 1 is I think very much a
nongoal: middlebox ossification is part of the reason we have QUIC.

Sincerely,
Watson Ladd




Brent Bliger
Director-Technology Verizon SDP
brent.bilger@verizon.com<mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com>






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<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-1=
252">
</head>
<body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break:=
 after-white-space;" class=3D"">
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-fami=
ly: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">
I'm trying to understand how anything was pre-authenticated without sufferi=
ng from all of the same problems.<br>
<br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-fami=
ly: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">
How would such pre-authentication be done in practice, especially in scenar=
ios where the server doesn't have a whitelist of clients, and that service =
desires traffic from non-malicious clients?<br>
<br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-fami=
ly: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">
-=3DR<br>
<br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-fami=
ly: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">
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Get <a href=3D"https://aka.ms/ghei36">Outlook for Android</a></div>
</span><br>
</div>
<hr style=3D"display:inline-block;width:98%" tabindex=3D"-1">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" st=
yle=3D"font-size:11pt" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> brent.bilger@verizon.=
com &lt;brent.bilger@verizon.com&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 23, 2019 8:21:05 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Watson Ladd &lt;watsonbladd@gmail.com&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org &lt;brent.bilger=3D4=
0verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org&gt;; Roberto Peon &lt;fenix@fb.com&gt;; quic@ie=
tf.org &lt;quic@ietf.org&gt;; brent.bilger@verizon.com &lt;brent.bilger@ver=
izon.com&gt;; Ian Swett &lt;ianswett=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy</font>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<div><br class=3D"">
<div><br class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">On Jul 22, 2019, at 9:16 PM, Watson Ladd &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:watsonbladd@gmail.com" class=3D"">watsonbladd@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<=
/div>
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helv=
etica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font=
-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0p=
x; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-te=
xt-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !=
important;" class=3D"">On
 Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 5:29 PM</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);=
 font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-=
caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: star=
t; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacin=
g: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size=
: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;=
 letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transfor=
m: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:=
 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" clas=
s=3D"">&lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf=
.org" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal;=
 font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; or=
phans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; whi=
te-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust=
: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">brent.bilger=3D40verizo=
n.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-fami=
ly: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: norm=
al; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-in=
dent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -w=
ebkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: =
inline !important;" class=3D"">&gt;
 wrote:</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetic=
a; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-wei=
ght: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; t=
ext-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-s=
troke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px;=
 font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter=
-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-=
transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -web=
kit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration=
: none;" class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
On Jul 22, 2019, at 10:10 AM, Roberto Peon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.c=
om" class=3D"">fenix@fb.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
When you=92re talking about pre-authentication, are you referring to the 0-=
rtt stuff?<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
0-RTT is good stuff. It reduces time for a device that=92s already known to=
 be authorized to connect to the server.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Part of the problem is to stop resource DoS. The other part is about inform=
ation leakage.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Let=92s assume a time when all website use QUIC and let's take an adversary=
 who has just learned about a vulnerability in Wordpress. The adversary wan=
ts to scan the Internet finding Wordpress sites. Now, if the QUIC connectio=
n required pre-authentication, then
 the server would be black to the connection and the adversary could not de=
termine if the site uses Wordpress. But, as it stands today, in this future=
 time, the adversary scans the Internet, connects to the server, and is han=
ded a Wordpress login screen. Now
 the adversary knows where to attack.<br class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; l=
etter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:=
 none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0=
px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size=
: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;=
 letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transfor=
m: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:=
 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" clas=
s=3D"">If
 connection requires preauthentication then no one can see the site, no?</s=
pan></div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvet=
ica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-w=
eight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;=
 text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text=
-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px;=
 font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter=
-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-=
transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -web=
kit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration=
: none;" class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
In the enterprise it is a little different. Companies implement reverse pro=
xies to try to protect servers from unauthorized users. But what if the ser=
vers required a pre-authentication token. Then, reverse proxies would not b=
e needed.<br class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; l=
etter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:=
 none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0=
px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size=
: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;=
 letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transfor=
m: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:=
 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" clas=
s=3D"">So
 I think there are two different things here, or maybe I'm misunderstanding=
:</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; fon=
t-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: n=
ormal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-tr=
ansform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-=
width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size=
: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;=
 letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transfor=
m: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:=
 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" clas=
s=3D"">1:
 We have servers that have a limited number of clients that will</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px=
; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; lette=
r-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: non=
e; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size=
: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;=
 letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transfor=
m: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:=
 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" clas=
s=3D"">ever
 want to connect to them, and want to enable other devices to</span><br sty=
le=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; f=
ont-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-s=
pacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; tex=
t-decoration: none;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size=
: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;=
 letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transfor=
m: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:=
 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" clas=
s=3D"">filter
 the traffic, so need some mechanism that enables a middlebox to</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px=
; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; lette=
r-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: non=
e; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size=
: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;=
 letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transfor=
m: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:=
 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" clas=
s=3D"">filter.</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: H=
elvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; f=
ont-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent:=
 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit=
-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br class=3D"">
</div>
No middle box! Pre-authentication makes servers self-defending. Lack of pre=
-authentication is why we have middle boxes.</div>
<div><br class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helv=
etica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font=
-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0p=
x; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-te=
xt-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !=
important;" class=3D"">2:
 We have servers generally available to the public and are concerned</span>=
<br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; l=
etter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:=
 none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0=
px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size=
: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;=
 letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transfor=
m: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:=
 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" clas=
s=3D"">that
 the QUIC version of a SYN flood can't be dealt with (despite</span><br sty=
le=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; f=
ont-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-s=
pacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; tex=
t-decoration: none;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size=
: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;=
 letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transfor=
m: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:=
 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" clas=
s=3D"">evidence
 to the contrary).</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-famil=
y: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: norma=
l; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-ind=
ent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -we=
bkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br class=3D"">
</div>
Companies and website owners have to pay for anti-DoS services&nbsp;from th=
e likes of Verizon and others BECAUSE servers listen to all clients. With p=
re-authentication, the need to have an anti-DoS service would be greatly re=
duced because servers would not respond
 to unauthorized clients.</div>
<div><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div>And the point about information leakage is important, too.</div>
<div><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div>Brent</div>
<div><br class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvet=
ica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-w=
eight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;=
 text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text=
-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size=
: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;=
 letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transfor=
m: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:=
 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" clas=
s=3D"">I
 don't know much about how Cloudflare (my place of employment) &nbsp;deals<=
/span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-=
size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: nor=
mal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-tran=
sform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-wi=
dth: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size=
: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;=
 letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transfor=
m: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:=
 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" clas=
s=3D"">with
 2 but hopefully some people who do/implementors can speak up</span><br sty=
le=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; f=
ont-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-s=
pacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; tex=
t-decoration: none;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size=
: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;=
 letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transfor=
m: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:=
 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" clas=
s=3D"">about
 how much of a problem it is. But 1 is I think very much a</span><br style=
=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; fon=
t-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spa=
cing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; wh=
ite-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-=
decoration: none;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size=
: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;=
 letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transfor=
m: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:=
 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" clas=
s=3D"">nongoal:
 middlebox ossification is part of the reason we have QUIC.</span><br style=
=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; fon=
t-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spa=
cing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; wh=
ite-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-=
decoration: none;" class=3D"">
<br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; l=
etter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:=
 none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0=
px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size=
: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;=
 letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transfor=
m: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:=
 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" clas=
s=3D"">Sincerely,</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family=
: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal=
; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-inde=
nt: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -web=
kit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size=
: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;=
 letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transfor=
m: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:=
 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" clas=
s=3D"">Watson
 Ladd</span></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant-c=
aps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start=
; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing=
: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; word-wrap: br=
eak-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=
=3D"">
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;=
 line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">
<div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-variant-=
caps: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-=
stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
<br class=3D"">
</div>
<div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-variant-=
caps: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-=
stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">
<br class=3D"">
</div>
<div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-variant-=
caps: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-=
stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">
Brent Bliger</div>
<div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-variant-=
caps: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-=
stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">
Director-Technology&nbsp;Verizon SDP&nbsp;<br class=3D"">
</div>
<div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-variant-=
caps: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-=
stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">
<a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com" class=3D"">brent.bilger@verizon=
.com</a></div>
<div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 24px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
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: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webki=
t-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
</div>
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
</div>
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0);=
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<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
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To: Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>
Subject: Re: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
Thread-Topic: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
Thread-Index: AQHVQO2TMeh9llpV6EqU+Dk6tm4oPqbYDioAgACHhoCAABI8gIAACRKA
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 13:58:49 +0000
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From: Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>
To: "brent.bilger@verizon.com" <brent.bilger@verizon.com>
CC: Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com>, "brent.bilger=40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org" <brent.bilger=40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, Ian Swett <ianswett=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
Thread-Topic: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
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Subject: Re: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
To: Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, "brent.bilger@verizon.com" <brent.bilger@verizon.com>
Cc: Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>,  "brent.bilger=40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org" <brent.bilger=40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>,  Ian Swett <ianswett=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
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--000000000000af0b5e058e5a5b7b
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
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It is not that easy to steal a token and replay, but it can happen.

If you add a time factor such an attack will have limited value. In fact a
token need not be valid for more than about 10 minutes to account for
skewed clocks.

On 23 July 2019 at 16.41.09, Roberto Peon (fenix@fb.com) wrote:

I=E2=80=99d assume #1 is less likely to experience crippling SYN-based DoS =
attacks,
and could otherwise be accomplished by limiting access in IP-space
(imperfect, but we=E2=80=99re looking for =E2=80=9Cgood-enough=E2=80=9D, he=
re).


.. which means that I think we should consider 2+3 only, really.

For #2 and #3, which I suspect have significant overlaps (sites may provide
services both to logged-in users and users who aren=E2=80=99t logged in), t=
he
pre-authorization either:
  a) can be DoS=E2=80=99d itself.
  b) can be used to do a DoS in the future.

In case b, as an attacker, you=E2=80=99d get or wait for the client to
authenticate, then use that authentication in a replay attack, e.g. by
replicating the auth token across many hosts.
In cases where you are disallowed to replicate the auth token, e.g. because
it is tied to a particular IP, you can help solve the replay attack however
you=E2=80=99ll be biasing traffic to users whose IP is stable and who are l=
ogged
in/auth=E2=80=99d.
In the pre-shared key scenario that was described, if any one client leaks
the shared-secret, then it becomes not very useful and certainly doesn=E2=
=80=99t
protect against a DoS. I=E2=80=99d guess that the probability of the loss o=
f a
symmetric key is proportional to the breadth of the distribution of the key=
.

What I=E2=80=99m trying to point out is that this doesn=E2=80=99t really se=
em to solve the
generic DoS attack.
You=E2=80=99ll still need to do some heuristics/rules based upon whatever i=
s
observable, at a minimum the 5-tuple.
Getting more than the 5-tuple to be visible will take more work by the
server, true, but given other design constraints, I don=E2=80=99t see how t=
hat is
avoidable.

-=3DR



*From: *"brent.bilger@verizon.com" <brent.bilger@verizon.com>
*Date: *Tuesday, July 23, 2019 at 9:59 AM
*To: *Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>
*Cc: *"brent.bilger@verizon.com" <brent.bilger@verizon.com>, Watson Ladd <
watsonbladd@gmail.com>, "brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org"
<brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.o=
rg>,
Ian Swett <ianswett=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
*Subject: *Re: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy



There are lots of possible scenarios, so please just consider these to be
examples. Let=E2=80=99s divide the world of servers in to 1) enterprise
business-to-business websites, 2) websites meant for consumers where
authentication is desirable, and 3) websites that will want to allow their
users to be anonymous, therefore, pre-authentication would not apply.



Enterprise business-to-business websites could use something similar to the
Software Defined Perimeter (SDP) Single Packet Authorization (SPA) protocol
created by the Cloud Security Alliance. It uses the fact that clients are
on-boarded to the system in a one time event to provide the clients with a
shared secret key. The key is used in a counter-based HMAC calculation.
Since only an authorized client can calculate the proper HMAC, the HMAC can
be used for pre-authentication. Thus, the pre-authentication token could
look something like this:

Client->Server: ClientID, Counter, HMAC[ClientID || Counter, Ks] where Ks
is a shared secret key that both the client and server have.

On the server side, the server would recalculate the HMAC and compare it to
the one provided by the client.

Note that this information is sent from the client to the server in clear
text (i.e., not encrypted).

In practice, there would probably be more fields, but the important part is
that the one-time on boarding enables a lifetime of pre-authentication
tokens.



Websites meant for consumers would probably be handled differently -
specifically, no on-boarding. That means there would be some kind of token
service - similar to OAuth, but operating prior to the TCP equivalent of
SYN/ACK. Perhaps CloudFlair or Google or Microsoft could invent something
like this and offer it as a service???



Again, there will be other websites that will not want pre-authentication
because they want to allow anonymous users to their site.



Brent



On Jul 23, 2019, at 6:26 AM, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com> wrote:



I'm trying to understand how anything was pre-authenticated without
suffering from all of the same problems.

How would such pre-authentication be done in practice, especially in
scenarios where the server doesn't have a whitelist of clients, and that
service desires traffic from non-malicious clients?

-=3DR

Get Outlook for Android
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__aka.ms_ghei36&d=3DD=
wMF-g&c=3DudBTRvFvXC5Dhqg7UHpJlPps3mZ3LRxpb6__0PomBTQ&r=3DW-O0t0zwhgXHP8ujp=
h6uz3rH0MtuaLwEr_7gE2p1X5o&m=3DCV-HIhbRVp-argiNrVu_DK7rONk5xt9L5r0Efmw170I&=
s=3DWXhjQ5cGfCrw6BSXdq5jydKEbOF2Pu3tjL2QZWXz6eY&e=3D>


------------------------------

*From:* brent.bilger@verizon.com <brent.bilger@verizon.com>
*Sent:* Tuesday, July 23, 2019 8:21:05 AM
*To:* Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com>
*Cc:* brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org <
brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>;
quic@ietf.org <quic@ietf.org>; brent.bilger@verizon.com <
brent.bilger@verizon.com>; Ian Swett <ianswett=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.or=
g>
*Subject:* Re: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy







On Jul 22, 2019, at 9:16 PM, Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com> wrote:



On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 5:29 PM
<brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:




On Jul 22, 2019, at 10:10 AM, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com> wrote:

When you=E2=80=99re talking about pre-authentication, are you referring to =
the
0-rtt stuff?


0-RTT is good stuff. It reduces time for a device that=E2=80=99s already kn=
own to
be authorized to connect to the server.

Part of the problem is to stop resource DoS. The other part is about
information leakage.

Let=E2=80=99s assume a time when all website use QUIC and let's take an adv=
ersary
who has just learned about a vulnerability in Wordpress. The adversary
wants to scan the Internet finding Wordpress sites. Now, if the QUIC
connection required pre-authentication, then the server would be black to
the connection and the adversary could not determine if the site uses
Wordpress. But, as it stands today, in this future time, the adversary
scans the Internet, connects to the server, and is handed a Wordpress login
screen. Now the adversary knows where to attack.


If connection requires preauthentication then no one can see the site, no?




In the enterprise it is a little different. Companies implement reverse
proxies to try to protect servers from unauthorized users. But what if the
servers required a pre-authentication token. Then, reverse proxies would
not be needed.


So I think there are two different things here, or maybe I'm
misunderstanding:
1: We have servers that have a limited number of clients that will
ever want to connect to them, and want to enable other devices to
filter the traffic, so need some mechanism that enables a middlebox to
filter.



No middle box! Pre-authentication makes servers self-defending. Lack of
pre-authentication is why we have middle boxes.



2: We have servers generally available to the public and are concerned
that the QUIC version of a SYN flood can't be dealt with (despite
evidence to the contrary).



Companies and website owners have to pay for anti-DoS services from the
likes of Verizon and others BECAUSE servers listen to all clients. With
pre-authentication, the need to have an anti-DoS service would be greatly
reduced because servers would not respond to unauthorized clients.



And the point about information leakage is important, too.



Brent




I don't know much about how Cloudflare (my place of employment)  deals
with 2 but hopefully some people who do/implementors can speak up
about how much of a problem it is. But 1 is I think very much a
nongoal: middlebox ossification is part of the reason we have QUIC.

Sincerely,
Watson Ladd







Brent Bliger

Director-Technology Verizon SDP

brent.bilger@verizon.com















Brent Bliger

Director-Technology Verizon SDP

brent.bilger@verizon.com

--000000000000af0b5e058e5a5b7b
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">It is not that easy =
to steal a token and replay, but it can happen.</div><div id=3D"bloop_custo=
mfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0=
,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" s=
tyle=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);ma=
rgin:0px;line-height:auto">If you add a time factor such an attack will hav=
e limited value. In fact a token need not be valid for more than about 10 m=
inutes to account for skewed clocks.</div> <br><p class=3D"airmail_on">On 2=
3 July 2019 at 16.41.09, Roberto Peon (<a href=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.com">feni=
x@fb.com</a>) wrote:</p> <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq"><span=
><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div></div><div>






<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I=E2=80=99d assume #1 is less likely to experience c=
rippling SYN-based DoS attacks, and could otherwise be accomplished by limi=
ting access in IP-space (imperfect, but we=E2=80=99re looking for =E2=80=9C=
good-enough=E2=80=9D, here).</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
.. which means that I think we should consider 2+3 only, really.<br>
<br>
For #2 and #3, which I suspect have significant overlaps (sites may provide=
 services both to logged-in users and users who aren=E2=80=99t logged in), =
the pre-authorization either:<br>
=C2=A0 a) can be DoS=E2=80=99d itself.<br>
=C2=A0 b) can be used to do a DoS in the future.<br>
<br>
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In case b, as an attacker, you=E2=80=99d get or wait=
 for the client to authenticate, then use that authentication in a replay a=
ttack, e.g. by replicating the auth token across many hosts.<br>
In cases where you are disallowed to replicate the auth token, e.g. because=
 it is tied to a particular IP, you can help solve the replay attack howeve=
r you=E2=80=99ll be biasing traffic to users whose IP is stable and who are=
 logged in/auth=E2=80=99d.<br>
In the pre-shared key scenario that was described, if any one client leaks =
the shared-secret, then it becomes not very useful and certainly doesn=E2=
=80=99t protect against a DoS. I=E2=80=99d guess that the probability of th=
e loss of a symmetric key is proportional to the breadth
 of the distribution of the key.<br>
<br>
What I=E2=80=99m trying to point out is that this doesn=E2=80=99t really se=
em to solve the generic DoS attack.<br>
You=E2=80=99ll still need to do some heuristics/rules based upon whatever i=
s observable, at a minimum the 5-tuple.<br>
Getting more than the 5-tuple to be visible will take more work by the serv=
er, true, but given other design constraints, I don=E2=80=99t see how that =
is avoidable.<br>
<br>
-=3DR</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From=
: </span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">&quot;<a href=3D"=
mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.bilger@verizon.com</a>&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.bilger@verizon.com</a>&gt;<b=
r>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, July 23, 2019 at 9:59 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>Roberto Peon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.com">fenix@fb.com</a=
>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.bilger@v=
erizon.com</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.=
bilger@verizon.com</a>&gt;, Watson Ladd &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:watsonbladd@g=
mail.com">watsonbladd@gmail.com</a>&gt;, &quot;brent.bilger=3D<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org">40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&quot; &=
lt;brent.bilger=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org">40verizon=
.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@ie=
tf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@ietf.org</a>&gt;=
, Ian Swett &lt;ianswett=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org">4=
0google.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">There are lots of possible scenarios, so please just=
 consider these to be examples. Let=E2=80=99s divide the world of servers i=
n to 1) enterprise business-to-business websites, 2) websites meant for con=
sumers where authentication is desirable,
 and 3) websites that will want to allow their users to be anonymous, there=
fore, pre-authentication would not apply.
</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Enterprise business-to-business websites could use s=
omething similar to the Software Defined Perimeter (SDP) Single Packet Auth=
orization (SPA) protocol created by the Cloud Security Alliance. It uses th=
e fact that clients are on-boarded
 to the system in a one time event to provide the clients with a shared sec=
ret key. The key is used in a counter-based HMAC calculation. Since only an=
 authorized client can calculate the proper HMAC, the HMAC can be used for =
pre-authentication. Thus, the pre-authentication
 token could look something like this:</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Client-&gt;Server: ClientID, Counter, HMAC[ClientID =
|| Counter, Ks] where Ks is a shared secret key that both the client and se=
rver have.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On the server side, the server would recalculate the=
 HMAC and compare it to the one provided by the client.=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Note that this information is sent from the client t=
o the server in clear text (i.e., not encrypted).</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In practice, there would probably be more fields, bu=
t the important part is that the one-time on boarding enables a lifetime of=
 pre-authentication tokens.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Websites meant for consumers would probably be handl=
ed differently - specifically, no on-boarding. That means there would be so=
me kind of token service - similar to OAuth, but operating prior to the TCP=
 equivalent of SYN/ACK. Perhaps CloudFlair
 or Google or Microsoft could invent something like this and offer it as a =
service???</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Again, there will be other websites that will not wa=
nt pre-authentication because they want to allow anonymous users to their s=
ite.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Brent</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
</p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Jul 23, 2019, at 6:26 AM, Roberto Peon &lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.com">fenix@fb.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">I&#39;m trying to understand how anythi=
ng was pre-authenticated without suffering from all of the same problems.</=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">How would such pre-authentication be do=
ne in practice, especially in scenarios where the server doesn&#39;t have a=
 whitelist of clients, and that service desires traffic
 from non-malicious clients?</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">-=3DR</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">Get <a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__=
aka.ms_ghei36&amp;d=3DDwMF-g&amp;c=3DudBTRvFvXC5Dhqg7UHpJlPps3mZ3LRxpb6__0P=
omBTQ&amp;r=3DW-O0t0zwhgXHP8ujph6uz3rH0MtuaLwEr_7gE2p1X5o&amp;m=3DCV-HIhbRV=
p-argiNrVu_DK7rONk5xt9L5r0Efmw170I&amp;s=3DWXhjQ5cGfCrw6BSXdq5jydKEbOF2Pu3t=
jL2QZWXz6eY&amp;e=3D">
Outlook for Android</a></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-se=
rif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center">
<hr size=3D"0" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</div>
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.=
com">brent.bilger@verizon.com</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizo=
n.com">brent.bilger@verizon.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 23, 2019 8:21:05 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Watson Ladd &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:watsonbladd@gmail.com">watsonb=
ladd@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org">b=
rent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brent.=
bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org">brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.i=
etf.org</a>&gt;; Roberto Peon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.com">fenix@fb.=
com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:qu=
ic@ietf.org">quic@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.bilger@verizon.com</a> &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.bilger@verizon.com</a>&=
gt;; Ian Swett &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ianswett=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org=
">ianswett=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy </p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
</p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Jul 22, 2019, at 9:16 PM, Watson Ladd &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:watsonbladd@gmail.com">watsonbladd@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 5:29 PM<br>
&lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org"><=
span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica">brent.bilger=3D40veri=
zon.com@dmarc.ietf.org</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-famil=
y:Helvetica">&gt; wrote:<br style=3D"font-variant-caps:normal;text-align:st=
art;word-spacing:0px">
<br>
</span></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a"><br>
<br>
<br>
On Jul 22, 2019, at 10:10 AM, Roberto Peon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.c=
om">fenix@fb.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
When you=E2=80=99re talking about pre-authentication, are you referring to =
the 0-rtt stuff?<br>
<br>
<br>
0-RTT is good stuff. It reduces time for a device that=E2=80=99s already kn=
own to be authorized to connect to the server.<br>
<br>
Part of the problem is to stop resource DoS. The other part is about inform=
ation leakage.<br>
<br>
Let=E2=80=99s assume a time when all website use QUIC and let&#39;s take an=
 adversary who has just learned about a vulnerability in Wordpress. The adv=
ersary wants to scan the Internet finding Wordpress sites. Now, if the QUIC=
 connection required pre-authentication, then
 the server would be black to the connection and the adversary could not de=
termine if the site uses Wordpress. But, as it stands today, in this future=
 time, the adversary scans the Internet, connects to the server, and is han=
ded a Wordpress login screen. Now
 the adversary knows where to attack.</span></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a"><br>
If connection requires preauthentication then no one can see the site, no?<=
/span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a"><br style=3D"font-variant-caps:normal;text-align:start;word-spacing:0px"=
>
<br>
</span></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a"><br>
In the enterprise it is a little different. Companies implement reverse pro=
xies to try to protect servers from unauthorized users. But what if the ser=
vers required a pre-authentication token. Then, reverse proxies would not b=
e needed.</span></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a"><br>
So I think there are two different things here, or maybe I&#39;m misunderst=
anding:<br>
1: We have servers that have a limited number of clients that will<br>
ever want to connect to them, and want to enable other devices to<br>
filter the traffic, so need some mechanism that enables a middlebox to<br>
filter.</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">No middle box! Pre-authentication makes servers self=
-defending. Lack of pre-authentication is why we have middle boxes.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
</p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">2: We have servers generally available to the public and are concerned<b=
r>
that the QUIC version of a SYN flood can&#39;t be dealt with (despite<br>
evidence to the contrary).</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Companies and website owners have to pay for anti-Do=
S services=C2=A0from the likes of Verizon and others BECAUSE servers listen=
 to all clients. With pre-authentication, the need to have an anti-DoS serv=
ice would be greatly reduced because servers
 would not respond to unauthorized clients.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">And the point about information leakage is important=
, too.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Brent</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
</p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a"><br>
I don&#39;t know much about how Cloudflare (my place of employment) =C2=A0d=
eals<br>
with 2 but hopefully some people who do/implementors can speak up<br>
about how much of a problem it is. But 1 is I think very much a<br>
nongoal: middlebox ossification is part of the reason we have QUIC.<br>
<br>
Sincerely,<br>
Watson Ladd</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:13.5pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica">=C2=A0</span></p>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">Brent Bliger</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">Director-Technology=C2=A0Verizon SDP=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a"><a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.bilger@verizon.com</a>=
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:18.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">=C2=A0</span></p>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">=C2=A0</p>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:13.5pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">=C2=A0</span></p>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a;color:black">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a;color:black">Brent Bliger</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a;color:black">Director-Technology=C2=A0Verizon SDP=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a;color:black"><a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.bilger@ver=
izon.com</a></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:18.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a;color:black">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a;color:black">=C2=A0</span></p>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
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Subject: Re: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
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Subject: Re: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
To: Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, "brent.bilger@verizon.com" <brent.bilger@verizon.com>
Cc: Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>,  "brent.bilger=40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org" <brent.bilger=40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>,  Ian Swett <ianswett=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
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No that is not the point.

You send a token with the initial packet (which is large anyway). It is not
thought to be a high quality authentication token - for that you can use
TLS client auth. But you need to pre-qualify before wasting handshake
resources.

It is intended to get priority over other packets on a load balancer the
experience high load, and only for initial packets. After that, the load
balancer can track existing sessions either by remembering them, or by
algorithmically checking the server assigned CID on subsequent packets.

A load balancer may choose to drop or down prioritize intial packets that
do not have a signed token.


Kind Regards,
Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen


On 23 July 2019 at 17.01.26, Roberto Peon (fenix@fb.com) wrote:

With short timeouts for the auth-token you have a requirement to
authenticate often, which means that a significant percentage of the
population of clients/users will be unable to connect when the
authentication endpoint is DoS=E2=80=99d.

If, ultimately, we keep needing to look at 5-tuples to solve the DoS, then
why have the additional complexity of an additional service?
-=3DR



*From: *Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen <mikkelfj@gmail.com>
*Date: *Tuesday, July 23, 2019 at 10:54 AM
*To: *Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, "brent.bilger@verizon.com" <
brent.bilger@verizon.com>
*Cc: *Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>,
"brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org" <brent.bilger=3D
40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Ian Swett <ianswett=3D
40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
*Subject: *Re: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy



It is not that easy to steal a token and replay, but it can happen.



If you add a time factor such an attack will have limited value. In fact a
token need not be valid for more than about 10 minutes to account for
skewed clocks.



On 23 July 2019 at 16.41.09, Roberto Peon (fenix@fb.com) wrote:

I=E2=80=99d assume #1 is less likely to experience crippling SYN-based DoS =
attacks,
and could otherwise be accomplished by limiting access in IP-space
(imperfect, but we=E2=80=99re looking for =E2=80=9Cgood-enough=E2=80=9D, he=
re).


.. which means that I think we should consider 2+3 only, really.

For #2 and #3, which I suspect have significant overlaps (sites may provide
services both to logged-in users and users who aren=E2=80=99t logged in), t=
he
pre-authorization either:
  a) can be DoS=E2=80=99d itself.
  b) can be used to do a DoS in the future.

In case b, as an attacker, you=E2=80=99d get or wait for the client to
authenticate, then use that authentication in a replay attack, e.g. by
replicating the auth token across many hosts.
In cases where you are disallowed to replicate the auth token, e.g. because
it is tied to a particular IP, you can help solve the replay attack however
you=E2=80=99ll be biasing traffic to users whose IP is stable and who are l=
ogged
in/auth=E2=80=99d.
In the pre-shared key scenario that was described, if any one client leaks
the shared-secret, then it becomes not very useful and certainly doesn=E2=
=80=99t
protect against a DoS. I=E2=80=99d guess that the probability of the loss o=
f a
symmetric key is proportional to the breadth of the distribution of the key=
.

What I=E2=80=99m trying to point out is that this doesn=E2=80=99t really se=
em to solve the
generic DoS attack.
You=E2=80=99ll still need to do some heuristics/rules based upon whatever i=
s
observable, at a minimum the 5-tuple.
Getting more than the 5-tuple to be visible will take more work by the
server, true, but given other design constraints, I don=E2=80=99t see how t=
hat is
avoidable.

-=3DR



*From: *"brent.bilger@verizon.com" <brent.bilger@verizon.com>
*Date: *Tuesday, July 23, 2019 at 9:59 AM
*To: *Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>
*Cc: *"brent.bilger@verizon.com" <brent.bilger@verizon.com>, Watson Ladd <
watsonbladd@gmail.com>, "brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org"
<brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.o=
rg>,
Ian Swett <ianswett=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
*Subject: *Re: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy



There are lots of possible scenarios, so please just consider these to be
examples. Let=E2=80=99s divide the world of servers in to 1) enterprise
business-to-business websites, 2) websites meant for consumers where
authentication is desirable, and 3) websites that will want to allow their
users to be anonymous, therefore, pre-authentication would not apply.



Enterprise business-to-business websites could use something similar to the
Software Defined Perimeter (SDP) Single Packet Authorization (SPA) protocol
created by the Cloud Security Alliance. It uses the fact that clients are
on-boarded to the system in a one time event to provide the clients with a
shared secret key. The key is used in a counter-based HMAC calculation.
Since only an authorized client can calculate the proper HMAC, the HMAC can
be used for pre-authentication. Thus, the pre-authentication token could
look something like this:

Client->Server: ClientID, Counter, HMAC[ClientID || Counter, Ks] where Ks
is a shared secret key that both the client and server have.

On the server side, the server would recalculate the HMAC and compare it to
the one provided by the client.

Note that this information is sent from the client to the server in clear
text (i.e., not encrypted).

In practice, there would probably be more fields, but the important part is
that the one-time on boarding enables a lifetime of pre-authentication
tokens.



Websites meant for consumers would probably be handled differently -
specifically, no on-boarding. That means there would be some kind of token
service - similar to OAuth, but operating prior to the TCP equivalent of
SYN/ACK. Perhaps CloudFlair or Google or Microsoft could invent something
like this and offer it as a service???



Again, there will be other websites that will not want pre-authentication
because they want to allow anonymous users to their site.



Brent



On Jul 23, 2019, at 6:26 AM, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com> wrote:



I'm trying to understand how anything was pre-authenticated without
suffering from all of the same problems.

How would such pre-authentication be done in practice, especially in
scenarios where the server doesn't have a whitelist of clients, and that
service desires traffic from non-malicious clients?

-=3DR

Get Outlook for Android
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__aka.ms_ghei36&d=3DD=
wMF-g&c=3DudBTRvFvXC5Dhqg7UHpJlPps3mZ3LRxpb6__0PomBTQ&r=3DW-O0t0zwhgXHP8ujp=
h6uz3rH0MtuaLwEr_7gE2p1X5o&m=3DCV-HIhbRVp-argiNrVu_DK7rONk5xt9L5r0Efmw170I&=
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------------------------------

*From:* brent.bilger@verizon.com <brent.bilger@verizon.com>
*Sent:* Tuesday, July 23, 2019 8:21:05 AM
*To:* Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com>
*Cc:* brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org <
brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>;
quic@ietf.org <quic@ietf.org>; brent.bilger@verizon.com <
brent.bilger@verizon.com>; Ian Swett <ianswett=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.or=
g>
*Subject:* Re: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy







On Jul 22, 2019, at 9:16 PM, Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com> wrote:



On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 5:29 PM
<brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:




On Jul 22, 2019, at 10:10 AM, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com> wrote:

When you=E2=80=99re talking about pre-authentication, are you referring to =
the
0-rtt stuff?


0-RTT is good stuff. It reduces time for a device that=E2=80=99s already kn=
own to
be authorized to connect to the server.

Part of the problem is to stop resource DoS. The other part is about
information leakage.

Let=E2=80=99s assume a time when all website use QUIC and let's take an adv=
ersary
who has just learned about a vulnerability in Wordpress. The adversary
wants to scan the Internet finding Wordpress sites. Now, if the QUIC
connection required pre-authentication, then the server would be black to
the connection and the adversary could not determine if the site uses
Wordpress. But, as it stands today, in this future time, the adversary
scans the Internet, connects to the server, and is handed a Wordpress login
screen. Now the adversary knows where to attack.


If connection requires preauthentication then no one can see the site, no?




In the enterprise it is a little different. Companies implement reverse
proxies to try to protect servers from unauthorized users. But what if the
servers required a pre-authentication token. Then, reverse proxies would
not be needed.


So I think there are two different things here, or maybe I'm
misunderstanding:
1: We have servers that have a limited number of clients that will
ever want to connect to them, and want to enable other devices to
filter the traffic, so need some mechanism that enables a middlebox to
filter.



No middle box! Pre-authentication makes servers self-defending. Lack of
pre-authentication is why we have middle boxes.



2: We have servers generally available to the public and are concerned
that the QUIC version of a SYN flood can't be dealt with (despite
evidence to the contrary).



Companies and website owners have to pay for anti-DoS services from the
likes of Verizon and others BECAUSE servers listen to all clients. With
pre-authentication, the need to have an anti-DoS service would be greatly
reduced because servers would not respond to unauthorized clients.



And the point about information leakage is important, too.



Brent




I don't know much about how Cloudflare (my place of employment)  deals
with 2 but hopefully some people who do/implementors can speak up
about how much of a problem it is. But 1 is I think very much a
nongoal: middlebox ossification is part of the reason we have QUIC.

Sincerely,
Watson Ladd







Brent Bliger

Director-Technology Verizon SDP

brent.bilger@verizon.com















Brent Bliger

Director-Technology Verizon SDP

brent.bilger@verizon.com

--0000000000003da321058e5a8616
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">No that is not the p=
oint.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Aria=
l;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></d=
iv><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-s=
ize:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">You send a toke=
n with the initial packet (which is large anyway). It is not thought to be =
a high quality authentication token - for that you can use TLS client auth.=
 But you need to pre-qualify before wasting handshake resources.</div><div =
id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px=
;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bl=
oop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:r=
gba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">It is intended to get priority =
over other packets on a load balancer the experience high load, and only fo=
r initial packets. After that, the load balancer can track existing session=
s either by remembering them, or by algorithmically checking the server ass=
igned CID on subsequent packets.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D=
"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0p=
x;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-fa=
mily:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-h=
eight:auto">A load balancer may choose to drop or down prioritize intial pa=
ckets that do not have a signed token.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" st=
yle=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);mar=
gin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div> <br> <div id=3D"bloop_sign_15638941088=
33088000" class=3D"bloop_sign"><div style=3D"font-family:helvetica,arial;fo=
nt-size:13px">Kind Regards,</div><div style=3D"font-family:helvetica,arial;=
font-size:13px">Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen<br><br></div></div> <br><=
p class=3D"airmail_on">On 23 July 2019 at 17.01.26, Roberto Peon (<a href=
=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.com">fenix@fb.com</a>) wrote:</p> <blockquote type=3D"c=
ite" class=3D"clean_bq"><span><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"pu=
rple"><div></div><div>






<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">With short timeouts for the auth-token you have a re=
quirement to authenticate often, which means that a significant percentage =
of the population of clients/users will be unable to connect when the authe=
ntication endpoint is DoS=E2=80=99d.<br>
<br>
If, ultimately, we keep needing to look at 5-tuples to solve the DoS, then =
why have the additional complexity of an additional service?<br>
-=3DR</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From=
: </span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8=
e J=C3=B8rgensen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com">mikkelfj@gmail.c=
om</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, July 23, 2019 at 10:54 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>Roberto Peon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.com">fenix@fb.com</a=
>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.bilger@veriz=
on.com</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.bilg=
er@verizon.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>Watson Ladd &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:watsonbladd@gmail.com">watsonb=
ladd@gmail.com</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@ietf.or=
g</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &qu=
ot;brent.bilger=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org">40verizon=
.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;brent.bilger=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40verizo=
n.com@dmarc.ietf.org">40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;, Ian Swett &lt;i=
answett=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org">40google.com@dmarc=
.ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">It is not that easy to steal a token and replay, but it can happen.</spa=
n></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">If you add a time factor such an attack will have limited value. In fact=
 a token need not be valid for more than about 10 minutes to account for sk=
ewed clocks.</span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"airmailon">On 23 July 2019 at 16.41.09, Roberto Peon (<a href=
=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.com">fenix@fb.com</a>) wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">I=E2=80=99d assume #1 is less likely to experience crippling SYN-b=
ased DoS attacks, and could otherwise be accomplished by limiting access in=
 IP-space (imperfect, but we=E2=80=99re looking for
 =E2=80=9Cgood-enough=E2=80=9D, here).</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
.. which means that I think we should consider 2+3 only, really.<br>
<br>
For #2 and #3, which I suspect have significant overlaps (sites may provide=
 services both to logged-in users and users who aren=E2=80=99t logged in), =
the pre-authorization either:<br>
=C2=A0 a) can be DoS=E2=80=99d itself.<br>
=C2=A0 b) can be used to do a DoS in the future.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">In case b, as an attacker, you=E2=80=99d get or wait for the clien=
t to authenticate, then use that authentication in a replay attack, e.g. by=
 replicating the auth token across many hosts.<br>
In cases where you are disallowed to replicate the auth token, e.g. because=
 it is tied to a particular IP, you can help solve the replay attack howeve=
r you=E2=80=99ll be biasing traffic to users whose IP is stable and who are=
 logged in/auth=E2=80=99d.<br>
In the pre-shared key scenario that was described, if any one client leaks =
the shared-secret, then it becomes not very useful and certainly doesn=E2=
=80=99t protect against a DoS. I=E2=80=99d guess that the probability of th=
e loss of a symmetric key is proportional to the breadth
 of the distribution of the key.<br>
<br>
What I=E2=80=99m trying to point out is that this doesn=E2=80=99t really se=
em to solve the generic DoS attack.<br>
You=E2=80=99ll still need to do some heuristics/rules based upon whatever i=
s observable, at a minimum the 5-tuple.<br>
Getting more than the 5-tuple to be visible will take more work by the serv=
er, true, but given other design constraints, I don=E2=80=99t see how that =
is avoidable.<br>
<br>
-=3DR</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">&quot;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.bilger@verizon.com</a>&quot; &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.bilger@verizon.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, July 23, 2019 at 9:59 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>Roberto Peon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.com">fenix@fb.com</a=
>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.bilger@v=
erizon.com</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.=
bilger@verizon.com</a>&gt;, Watson Ladd &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:watsonbladd@g=
mail.com">watsonbladd@gmail.com</a>&gt;, &quot;brent.bilger=3D<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org">40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&quot;
 &lt;brent.bilger=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org">40veriz=
on.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@=
ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@ietf.org</a>&g=
t;, Ian Swett &lt;ianswett=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org"=
>40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">There are lots of possible scenarios, so please just consider thes=
e to be examples. Let=E2=80=99s divide the world of servers in to 1) enterp=
rise business-to-business websites, 2) websites
 meant for consumers where authentication is desirable, and 3) websites tha=
t will want to allow their users to be anonymous, therefore, pre-authentica=
tion would not apply.
</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">Enterprise business-to-business websites could use something simil=
ar to the Software Defined Perimeter (SDP) Single Packet Authorization (SPA=
) protocol created by the Cloud Security
 Alliance. It uses the fact that clients are on-boarded to the system in a =
one time event to provide the clients with a shared secret key. The key is =
used in a counter-based HMAC calculation. Since only an authorized client c=
an calculate the proper HMAC, the
 HMAC can be used for pre-authentication. Thus, the pre-authentication toke=
n could look something like this:</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">Client-&gt;Server: ClientID, Counter, HMAC[ClientID || Counter, Ks=
] where Ks is a shared secret key that both the client and server have.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">On the server side, the server would recalculate the HMAC and comp=
are it to the one provided by the client.=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">Note that this information is sent from the client to the server i=
n clear text (i.e., not encrypted).</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">In practice, there would probably be more fields, but the importan=
t part is that the one-time on boarding enables a lifetime of pre-authentic=
ation tokens.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">Websites meant for consumers would probably be handled differently=
 - specifically, no on-boarding. That means there would be some kind of tok=
en service - similar to OAuth, but operating
 prior to the TCP equivalent of SYN/ACK. Perhaps CloudFlair or Google or Mi=
crosoft could invent something like this and offer it as a service???</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">Again, there will be other websites that will not want pre-authent=
ication because they want to allow anonymous users to their site.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">Brent</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">=C2=A0</p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">On Jul 23, 2019, at 6:26 AM, Roberto Peon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fe=
nix@fb.com">fenix@fb.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">I&#39;m trying to understand how anythi=
ng was pre-authenticated without suffering from all of the same problems.</=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">How would such pre-authentication be do=
ne in practice, especially in scenarios where the server doesn&#39;t have a=
 whitelist of clients, and that
 service desires traffic from non-malicious clients?</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">-=3DR</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">Get
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__aka.ms_gh=
ei36&amp;d=3DDwMF-g&amp;c=3DudBTRvFvXC5Dhqg7UHpJlPps3mZ3LRxpb6__0PomBTQ&amp=
;r=3DW-O0t0zwhgXHP8ujph6uz3rH0MtuaLwEr_7gE2p1X5o&amp;m=3DCV-HIhbRVp-argiNrV=
u_DK7rONk5xt9L5r0Efmw170I&amp;s=3DWXhjQ5cGfCrw6BSXdq5jydKEbOF2Pu3tjL2QZWXz6=
eY&amp;e=3D">
Outlook for Android</a></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</s=
pan></p>
</div>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center">
<hr size=3D"0" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</div>
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b>From:</b>
<a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.bilger@verizon.com</a> &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.bilger@verizon.com</a>&=
gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 23, 2019 8:21:05 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Watson Ladd &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:watsonbladd@gmail.com">watsonb=
ladd@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org">b=
rent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brent.=
bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org">brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.i=
etf.org</a>&gt;; Roberto Peon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.com">fenix@fb.=
com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:qu=
ic@ietf.org">quic@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.bilger@verizon.com</a> &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.bilger@verizon.com</a>&=
gt;; Ian Swett &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ianswett=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org=
">ianswett=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy </p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">=C2=A0</p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">On Jul 22, 2019, at 9:16 PM, Watson Ladd &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:wat=
sonbladd@gmail.com">watsonbladd@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica">On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 5:29 PM<br>
&lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org"><=
span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica">brent.bilger=3D40veri=
zon.com@dmarc.ietf.org</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-famil=
y:Helvetica">&gt; wrote:</span></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica"><br>
<br>
<br>
On Jul 22, 2019, at 10:10 AM, Roberto Peon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.c=
om">fenix@fb.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
When you=E2=80=99re talking about pre-authentication, are you referring to =
the 0-rtt stuff?<br>
<br>
<br>
0-RTT is good stuff. It reduces time for a device that=E2=80=99s already kn=
own to be authorized to connect to the server.<br>
<br>
Part of the problem is to stop resource DoS. The other part is about inform=
ation leakage.<br>
<br>
Let=E2=80=99s assume a time when all website use QUIC and let&#39;s take an=
 adversary who has just learned about a vulnerability in Wordpress. The adv=
ersary wants to scan the Internet finding Wordpress sites. Now, if the QUIC=
 connection required pre-authentication, then
 the server would be black to the connection and the adversary could not de=
termine if the site uses Wordpress. But, as it stands today, in this future=
 time, the adversary scans the Internet, connects to the server, and is han=
ded a Wordpress login screen. Now
 the adversary knows where to attack.</span></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica"><br>
If connection requires preauthentication then no one can see the site, no?<=
/span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">=C2=A0</p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica"><br>
In the enterprise it is a little different. Companies implement reverse pro=
xies to try to protect servers from unauthorized users. But what if the ser=
vers required a pre-authentication token. Then, reverse proxies would not b=
e needed.</span></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica"><br>
So I think there are two different things here, or maybe I&#39;m misunderst=
anding:<br>
1: We have servers that have a limited number of clients that will<br>
ever want to connect to them, and want to enable other devices to<br>
filter the traffic, so need some mechanism that enables a middlebox to<br>
filter.</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">No middle box! Pre-authentication makes servers self-defending. La=
ck of pre-authentication is why we have middle boxes.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">=C2=A0</p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica">2: We have =
servers generally available to the public and are concerned<br>
that the QUIC version of a SYN flood can&#39;t be dealt with (despite<br>
evidence to the contrary).</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">Companies and website owners have to pay for anti-DoS services=C2=
=A0from the likes of Verizon and others BECAUSE servers listen to all clien=
ts. With pre-authentication, the need to have
 an anti-DoS service would be greatly reduced because servers would not res=
pond to unauthorized clients.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">And the point about information leakage is important, too.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">Brent</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">=C2=A0</p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica"><br>
I don&#39;t know much about how Cloudflare (my place of employment) =C2=A0d=
eals<br>
with 2 but hopefully some people who do/implementors can speak up<br>
about how much of a problem it is. But 1 is I think very much a<br>
nongoal: middlebox ossification is part of the reason we have QUIC.<br>
<br>
Sincerely,<br>
Watson Ladd</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:13.5pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica">=C2=A0</spa=
n></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica">Brent Blige=
r</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica">Director-Te=
chnology=C2=A0Verizon SDP=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica"><a href=3D"=
mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.bilger@verizon.com</a></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:18.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">=C2=A0</spa=
n></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica">=C2=A0</spa=
n></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:13.5pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"=
>=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"=
>Brent Bliger</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"=
>Director-Technology=C2=A0Verizon SDP=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"=
><a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.bilger@verizon.com</a></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:18.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"=
>=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"=
>=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>


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From nobody Tue Jul 23 08:08:32 2019
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Cc: brent.bilger@verizon.com, Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com>, "brent.bilger=40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org" <brent.bilger=40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>,  Ian Swett <ianswett=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
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To: Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>
Subject: Re: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
Thread-Topic: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
Thread-Index: AQHVQO2TMeh9llpV6EqU+Dk6tm4oPqbYDioAgACHhoCAABI8gIAACRKAgAALXgCAAAgGgA==
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 15:08:13 +0000
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Subject: Re: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
To: Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, "brent.bilger@verizon.com" <brent.bilger@verizon.com>
Cc: Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>,  "brent.bilger=40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org" <brent.bilger=40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>,  Ian Swett <ianswett=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
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And, if you don=E2=80=99t like load balances doing the job, the endpoint ca=
n do it
too.

The endpoint already checks the connection ID for non-initial packets, so
it can drop bad traffic very fast, except for the handshake. A signed token
would allow it to avoid sending Retry or initiate handshake unless it is
lightly loaded.



On 23 July 2019 at 17.05.33, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen (mikkelfj@gm=
ail.com)
wrote:

No that is not the point.

You send a token with the initial packet (which is large anyway). It is not
thought to be a high quality authentication token - for that you can use
TLS client auth. But you need to pre-qualify before wasting handshake
resources.

It is intended to get priority over other packets on a load balancer the
experience high load, and only for initial packets. After that, the load
balancer can track existing sessions either by remembering them, or by
algorithmically checking the server assigned CID on subsequent packets.

A load balancer may choose to drop or down prioritize intial packets that
do not have a signed token.


Kind Regards,
Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen


On 23 July 2019 at 17.01.26, Roberto Peon (fenix@fb.com) wrote:

With short timeouts for the auth-token you have a requirement to
authenticate often, which means that a significant percentage of the
population of clients/users will be unable to connect when the
authentication endpoint is DoS=E2=80=99d.

If, ultimately, we keep needing to look at 5-tuples to solve the DoS, then
why have the additional complexity of an additional service?
-=3DR



*From: *Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen <mikkelfj@gmail.com>
*Date: *Tuesday, July 23, 2019 at 10:54 AM
*To: *Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, "brent.bilger@verizon.com" <
brent.bilger@verizon.com>
*Cc: *Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>,
"brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org" <brent.bilger=3D
40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Ian Swett <ianswett=3D
40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
*Subject: *Re: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy



It is not that easy to steal a token and replay, but it can happen.



If you add a time factor such an attack will have limited value. In fact a
token need not be valid for more than about 10 minutes to account for
skewed clocks.



On 23 July 2019 at 16.41.09, Roberto Peon (fenix@fb.com) wrote:

I=E2=80=99d assume #1 is less likely to experience crippling SYN-based DoS =
attacks,
and could otherwise be accomplished by limiting access in IP-space
(imperfect, but we=E2=80=99re looking for =E2=80=9Cgood-enough=E2=80=9D, he=
re).


.. which means that I think we should consider 2+3 only, really.

For #2 and #3, which I suspect have significant overlaps (sites may provide
services both to logged-in users and users who aren=E2=80=99t logged in), t=
he
pre-authorization either:
  a) can be DoS=E2=80=99d itself.
  b) can be used to do a DoS in the future.

In case b, as an attacker, you=E2=80=99d get or wait for the client to
authenticate, then use that authentication in a replay attack, e.g. by
replicating the auth token across many hosts.
In cases where you are disallowed to replicate the auth token, e.g. because
it is tied to a particular IP, you can help solve the replay attack however
you=E2=80=99ll be biasing traffic to users whose IP is stable and who are l=
ogged
in/auth=E2=80=99d.
In the pre-shared key scenario that was described, if any one client leaks
the shared-secret, then it becomes not very useful and certainly doesn=E2=
=80=99t
protect against a DoS. I=E2=80=99d guess that the probability of the loss o=
f a
symmetric key is proportional to the breadth of the distribution of the key=
.

What I=E2=80=99m trying to point out is that this doesn=E2=80=99t really se=
em to solve the
generic DoS attack.
You=E2=80=99ll still need to do some heuristics/rules based upon whatever i=
s
observable, at a minimum the 5-tuple.
Getting more than the 5-tuple to be visible will take more work by the
server, true, but given other design constraints, I don=E2=80=99t see how t=
hat is
avoidable.

-=3DR



*From: *"brent.bilger@verizon.com" <brent.bilger@verizon.com>
*Date: *Tuesday, July 23, 2019 at 9:59 AM
*To: *Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>
*Cc: *"brent.bilger@verizon.com" <brent.bilger@verizon.com>, Watson Ladd <
watsonbladd@gmail.com>, "brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org"
<brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.o=
rg>,
Ian Swett <ianswett=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
*Subject: *Re: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy



There are lots of possible scenarios, so please just consider these to be
examples. Let=E2=80=99s divide the world of servers in to 1) enterprise
business-to-business websites, 2) websites meant for consumers where
authentication is desirable, and 3) websites that will want to allow their
users to be anonymous, therefore, pre-authentication would not apply.



Enterprise business-to-business websites could use something similar to the
Software Defined Perimeter (SDP) Single Packet Authorization (SPA) protocol
created by the Cloud Security Alliance. It uses the fact that clients are
on-boarded to the system in a one time event to provide the clients with a
shared secret key. The key is used in a counter-based HMAC calculation.
Since only an authorized client can calculate the proper HMAC, the HMAC can
be used for pre-authentication. Thus, the pre-authentication token could
look something like this:

Client->Server: ClientID, Counter, HMAC[ClientID || Counter, Ks] where Ks
is a shared secret key that both the client and server have.

On the server side, the server would recalculate the HMAC and compare it to
the one provided by the client.

Note that this information is sent from the client to the server in clear
text (i.e., not encrypted).

In practice, there would probably be more fields, but the important part is
that the one-time on boarding enables a lifetime of pre-authentication
tokens.



Websites meant for consumers would probably be handled differently -
specifically, no on-boarding. That means there would be some kind of token
service - similar to OAuth, but operating prior to the TCP equivalent of
SYN/ACK. Perhaps CloudFlair or Google or Microsoft could invent something
like this and offer it as a service???



Again, there will be other websites that will not want pre-authentication
because they want to allow anonymous users to their site.



Brent



On Jul 23, 2019, at 6:26 AM, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com> wrote:



I'm trying to understand how anything was pre-authenticated without
suffering from all of the same problems.

How would such pre-authentication be done in practice, especially in
scenarios where the server doesn't have a whitelist of clients, and that
service desires traffic from non-malicious clients?

-=3DR

Get Outlook for Android
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__aka.ms_ghei36&d=3DD=
wMF-g&c=3DudBTRvFvXC5Dhqg7UHpJlPps3mZ3LRxpb6__0PomBTQ&r=3DW-O0t0zwhgXHP8ujp=
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------------------------------

*From:* brent.bilger@verizon.com <brent.bilger@verizon.com>
*Sent:* Tuesday, July 23, 2019 8:21:05 AM
*To:* Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com>
*Cc:* brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org <
brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>;
quic@ietf.org <quic@ietf.org>; brent.bilger@verizon.com <
brent.bilger@verizon.com>; Ian Swett <ianswett=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.or=
g>
*Subject:* Re: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy







On Jul 22, 2019, at 9:16 PM, Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com> wrote:



On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 5:29 PM
<brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:




On Jul 22, 2019, at 10:10 AM, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com> wrote:

When you=E2=80=99re talking about pre-authentication, are you referring to =
the
0-rtt stuff?


0-RTT is good stuff. It reduces time for a device that=E2=80=99s already kn=
own to
be authorized to connect to the server.

Part of the problem is to stop resource DoS. The other part is about
information leakage.

Let=E2=80=99s assume a time when all website use QUIC and let's take an adv=
ersary
who has just learned about a vulnerability in Wordpress. The adversary
wants to scan the Internet finding Wordpress sites. Now, if the QUIC
connection required pre-authentication, then the server would be black to
the connection and the adversary could not determine if the site uses
Wordpress. But, as it stands today, in this future time, the adversary
scans the Internet, connects to the server, and is handed a Wordpress login
screen. Now the adversary knows where to attack.


If connection requires preauthentication then no one can see the site, no?




In the enterprise it is a little different. Companies implement reverse
proxies to try to protect servers from unauthorized users. But what if the
servers required a pre-authentication token. Then, reverse proxies would
not be needed.


So I think there are two different things here, or maybe I'm
misunderstanding:
1: We have servers that have a limited number of clients that will
ever want to connect to them, and want to enable other devices to
filter the traffic, so need some mechanism that enables a middlebox to
filter.



No middle box! Pre-authentication makes servers self-defending. Lack of
pre-authentication is why we have middle boxes.



2: We have servers generally available to the public and are concerned
that the QUIC version of a SYN flood can't be dealt with (despite
evidence to the contrary).



Companies and website owners have to pay for anti-DoS services from the
likes of Verizon and others BECAUSE servers listen to all clients. With
pre-authentication, the need to have an anti-DoS service would be greatly
reduced because servers would not respond to unauthorized clients.



And the point about information leakage is important, too.



Brent




I don't know much about how Cloudflare (my place of employment)  deals
with 2 but hopefully some people who do/implementors can speak up
about how much of a problem it is. But 1 is I think very much a
nongoal: middlebox ossification is part of the reason we have QUIC.

Sincerely,
Watson Ladd







Brent Bliger

Director-Technology Verizon SDP

brent.bilger@verizon.com















Brent Bliger

Director-Technology Verizon SDP

brent.bilger@verizon.com

--00000000000035f864058e5aa7b7
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">And, if you don=E2=
=80=99t like load balances doing the job, the endpoint can do it too.</div>=
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=
=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;c=
olor:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">The endpoint already chec=
ks the connection ID for non-initial packets, so it can drop bad traffic ve=
ry fast, except for the handshake. A signed token would allow it to avoid s=
ending Retry or initiate handshake unless it is lightly loaded.</div><div i=
d=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;=
color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"blo=
op_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rg=
ba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div> <br><p class=3D"airma=
il_on">On 23 July 2019 at 17.05.33, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen (<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com">mikkelfj@gmail.com</a>) wrote:</p> <block=
quote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq"><span><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-=
word;line-break:after-white-space"><div></div><div><div id=3D"bloop_customf=
ont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1=
.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">No that is not the point.</div><div id=3D"=
bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color=
:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_cu=
stomfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,=
0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">You send a token with the initial pac=
ket (which is large anyway). It is not thought to be a high quality authent=
ication token - for that you can use TLS client auth. But you need to pre-q=
ualify before wasting handshake resources.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont=
" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0)=
;margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin=
:0px;line-height:auto">It is intended to get priority over other packets on=
 a load balancer the experience high load, and only for initial packets. Af=
ter that, the load balancer can track existing sessions either by rememberi=
ng them, or by algorithmically checking the server assigned CID on subseque=
nt packets.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetic=
a,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><=
br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;=
font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">A load ba=
lancer may choose to drop or down prioritize intial packets that do not hav=
e a signed token.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:He=
lvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:a=
uto"><br></div> <br> <div id=3D"bloop_sign_1563894108833088000" class=3D"bl=
oop_sign"><div style=3D"font-family:helvetica,arial;font-size:13px">Kind Re=
gards,</div><div style=3D"font-family:helvetica,arial;font-size:13px">Mikke=
l Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen<br><br></div></div> <br><p class=3D"airmail_on=
">On 23 July 2019 at 17.01.26, Roberto Peon (<a href=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.com=
">fenix@fb.com</a>) wrote:</p> <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq"=
><span><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div></div><div>






<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">With short timeouts for the auth-token you have a re=
quirement to authenticate often, which means that a significant percentage =
of the population of clients/users will be unable to connect when the authe=
ntication endpoint is DoS=E2=80=99d.<br>
<br>
If, ultimately, we keep needing to look at 5-tuples to solve the DoS, then =
why have the additional complexity of an additional service?<br>
-=3DR</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From=
: </span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8=
e J=C3=B8rgensen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com">mikkelfj@gmail.c=
om</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, July 23, 2019 at 10:54 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>Roberto Peon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.com">fenix@fb.com</a=
>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.bilger@veriz=
on.com</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.bilg=
er@verizon.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>Watson Ladd &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:watsonbladd@gmail.com">watsonb=
ladd@gmail.com</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@ietf.or=
g</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &qu=
ot;brent.bilger=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org">40verizon=
.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;brent.bilger=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40verizo=
n.com@dmarc.ietf.org">40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;, Ian Swett &lt;i=
answett=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org">40google.com@dmarc=
.ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">It is not that easy to steal a token and replay, but it can happen.</spa=
n></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">If you add a time factor such an attack will have limited value. In fact=
 a token need not be valid for more than about 10 minutes to account for sk=
ewed clocks.</span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<p class=3D"airmailon">On 23 July 2019 at 16.41.09, Roberto Peon (<a href=
=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.com">fenix@fb.com</a>) wrote:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">I=E2=80=99d assume #1 is less likely to experience crippling SYN-b=
ased DoS attacks, and could otherwise be accomplished by limiting access in=
 IP-space (imperfect, but we=E2=80=99re looking for
 =E2=80=9Cgood-enough=E2=80=9D, here).</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><br>
.. which means that I think we should consider 2+3 only, really.<br>
<br>
For #2 and #3, which I suspect have significant overlaps (sites may provide=
 services both to logged-in users and users who aren=E2=80=99t logged in), =
the pre-authorization either:<br>
=C2=A0 a) can be DoS=E2=80=99d itself.<br>
=C2=A0 b) can be used to do a DoS in the future.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">In case b, as an attacker, you=E2=80=99d get or wait for the clien=
t to authenticate, then use that authentication in a replay attack, e.g. by=
 replicating the auth token across many hosts.<br>
In cases where you are disallowed to replicate the auth token, e.g. because=
 it is tied to a particular IP, you can help solve the replay attack howeve=
r you=E2=80=99ll be biasing traffic to users whose IP is stable and who are=
 logged in/auth=E2=80=99d.<br>
In the pre-shared key scenario that was described, if any one client leaks =
the shared-secret, then it becomes not very useful and certainly doesn=E2=
=80=99t protect against a DoS. I=E2=80=99d guess that the probability of th=
e loss of a symmetric key is proportional to the breadth
 of the distribution of the key.<br>
<br>
What I=E2=80=99m trying to point out is that this doesn=E2=80=99t really se=
em to solve the generic DoS attack.<br>
You=E2=80=99ll still need to do some heuristics/rules based upon whatever i=
s observable, at a minimum the 5-tuple.<br>
Getting more than the 5-tuple to be visible will take more work by the serv=
er, true, but given other design constraints, I don=E2=80=99t see how that =
is avoidable.<br>
<br>
-=3DR</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">&quot;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.bilger@verizon.com</a>&quot; &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.bilger@verizon.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, July 23, 2019 at 9:59 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>Roberto Peon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.com">fenix@fb.com</a=
>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.bilger@v=
erizon.com</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.=
bilger@verizon.com</a>&gt;, Watson Ladd &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:watsonbladd@g=
mail.com">watsonbladd@gmail.com</a>&gt;, &quot;brent.bilger=3D<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org">40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&quot;
 &lt;brent.bilger=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org">40veriz=
on.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@=
ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@ietf.org</a>&g=
t;, Ian Swett &lt;ianswett=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org"=
>40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">There are lots of possible scenarios, so please just consider thes=
e to be examples. Let=E2=80=99s divide the world of servers in to 1) enterp=
rise business-to-business websites, 2) websites
 meant for consumers where authentication is desirable, and 3) websites tha=
t will want to allow their users to be anonymous, therefore, pre-authentica=
tion would not apply.
</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">Enterprise business-to-business websites could use something simil=
ar to the Software Defined Perimeter (SDP) Single Packet Authorization (SPA=
) protocol created by the Cloud Security
 Alliance. It uses the fact that clients are on-boarded to the system in a =
one time event to provide the clients with a shared secret key. The key is =
used in a counter-based HMAC calculation. Since only an authorized client c=
an calculate the proper HMAC, the
 HMAC can be used for pre-authentication. Thus, the pre-authentication toke=
n could look something like this:</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">Client-&gt;Server: ClientID, Counter, HMAC[ClientID || Counter, Ks=
] where Ks is a shared secret key that both the client and server have.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">On the server side, the server would recalculate the HMAC and comp=
are it to the one provided by the client.=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">Note that this information is sent from the client to the server i=
n clear text (i.e., not encrypted).</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">In practice, there would probably be more fields, but the importan=
t part is that the one-time on boarding enables a lifetime of pre-authentic=
ation tokens.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">Websites meant for consumers would probably be handled differently=
 - specifically, no on-boarding. That means there would be some kind of tok=
en service - similar to OAuth, but operating
 prior to the TCP equivalent of SYN/ACK. Perhaps CloudFlair or Google or Mi=
crosoft could invent something like this and offer it as a service???</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">Again, there will be other websites that will not want pre-authent=
ication because they want to allow anonymous users to their site.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">Brent</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">=C2=A0</p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">On Jul 23, 2019, at 6:26 AM, Roberto Peon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fe=
nix@fb.com">fenix@fb.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">I&#39;m trying to understand how anythi=
ng was pre-authenticated without suffering from all of the same problems.</=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">How would such pre-authentication be do=
ne in practice, especially in scenarios where the server doesn&#39;t have a=
 whitelist of clients, and that
 service desires traffic from non-malicious clients?</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">-=3DR</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">Get
<a href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__aka.ms_gh=
ei36&amp;d=3DDwMF-g&amp;c=3DudBTRvFvXC5Dhqg7UHpJlPps3mZ3LRxpb6__0PomBTQ&amp=
;r=3DW-O0t0zwhgXHP8ujph6uz3rH0MtuaLwEr_7gE2p1X5o&amp;m=3DCV-HIhbRVp-argiNrV=
u_DK7rONk5xt9L5r0Efmw170I&amp;s=3DWXhjQ5cGfCrw6BSXdq5jydKEbOF2Pu3tjL2QZWXz6=
eY&amp;e=3D">
Outlook for Android</a></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</s=
pan></p>
</div>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center">
<hr size=3D"0" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</div>
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b>From:</b>
<a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.bilger@verizon.com</a> &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.bilger@verizon.com</a>&=
gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, July 23, 2019 8:21:05 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Watson Ladd &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:watsonbladd@gmail.com">watsonb=
ladd@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org">b=
rent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brent.=
bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org">brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.i=
etf.org</a>&gt;; Roberto Peon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.com">fenix@fb.=
com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:qu=
ic@ietf.org">quic@ietf.org</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.bilger@verizon.com</a> &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.bilger@verizon.com</a>&=
gt;; Ian Swett &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ianswett=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org=
">ianswett=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy </p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">=C2=A0</p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">On Jul 22, 2019, at 9:16 PM, Watson Ladd &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:wat=
sonbladd@gmail.com">watsonbladd@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica">On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 5:29 PM<br>
&lt;</span><a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org"><=
span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica">brent.bilger=3D40veri=
zon.com@dmarc.ietf.org</span></a><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-famil=
y:Helvetica">&gt; wrote:</span></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica"><br>
<br>
<br>
On Jul 22, 2019, at 10:10 AM, Roberto Peon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.c=
om">fenix@fb.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
When you=E2=80=99re talking about pre-authentication, are you referring to =
the 0-rtt stuff?<br>
<br>
<br>
0-RTT is good stuff. It reduces time for a device that=E2=80=99s already kn=
own to be authorized to connect to the server.<br>
<br>
Part of the problem is to stop resource DoS. The other part is about inform=
ation leakage.<br>
<br>
Let=E2=80=99s assume a time when all website use QUIC and let&#39;s take an=
 adversary who has just learned about a vulnerability in Wordpress. The adv=
ersary wants to scan the Internet finding Wordpress sites. Now, if the QUIC=
 connection required pre-authentication, then
 the server would be black to the connection and the adversary could not de=
termine if the site uses Wordpress. But, as it stands today, in this future=
 time, the adversary scans the Internet, connects to the server, and is han=
ded a Wordpress login screen. Now
 the adversary knows where to attack.</span></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica"><br>
If connection requires preauthentication then no one can see the site, no?<=
/span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">=C2=A0</p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica"><br>
In the enterprise it is a little different. Companies implement reverse pro=
xies to try to protect servers from unauthorized users. But what if the ser=
vers required a pre-authentication token. Then, reverse proxies would not b=
e needed.</span></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica"><br>
So I think there are two different things here, or maybe I&#39;m misunderst=
anding:<br>
1: We have servers that have a limited number of clients that will<br>
ever want to connect to them, and want to enable other devices to<br>
filter the traffic, so need some mechanism that enables a middlebox to<br>
filter.</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">No middle box! Pre-authentication makes servers self-defending. La=
ck of pre-authentication is why we have middle boxes.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">=C2=A0</p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica">2: We have =
servers generally available to the public and are concerned<br>
that the QUIC version of a SYN flood can&#39;t be dealt with (despite<br>
evidence to the contrary).</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">Companies and website owners have to pay for anti-DoS services=C2=
=A0from the likes of Verizon and others BECAUSE servers listen to all clien=
ts. With pre-authentication, the need to have
 an anti-DoS service would be greatly reduced because servers would not res=
pond to unauthorized clients.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">And the point about information leakage is important, too.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">Brent</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">=C2=A0</p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica"><br>
I don&#39;t know much about how Cloudflare (my place of employment) =C2=A0d=
eals<br>
with 2 but hopefully some people who do/implementors can speak up<br>
about how much of a problem it is. But 1 is I think very much a<br>
nongoal: middlebox ossification is part of the reason we have QUIC.<br>
<br>
Sincerely,<br>
Watson Ladd</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:13.5pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica">=C2=A0</spa=
n></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica">Brent Blige=
r</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica">Director-Te=
chnology=C2=A0Verizon SDP=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica"><a href=3D"=
mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.bilger@verizon.com</a></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:18.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">=C2=A0</spa=
n></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica">=C2=A0</spa=
n></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:13.5pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"=
>=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"=
>Brent Bliger</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"=
>Director-Technology=C2=A0Verizon SDP=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"=
><a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.bilger@verizon.com</a></=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:18.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"=
>=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"=
>=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>


</div></div></span></blockquote></div></div></span></blockquote></body></ht=
ml>

--00000000000035f864058e5aa7b7--


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From: brent.bilger@verizon.com
Cc: Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, brent.bilger@verizon.com, Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com>,  "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, "brent.bilger=40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org" <brent.bilger=40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Ian Swett <ianswett=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
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To: =?utf-8?B?TWlra2VsIEZhaG7DuGUgSsO4cmdlbnNlbg==?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
Thread-Topic: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
Thread-Index: AQHVQO2TMeh9llpV6EqU+Dk6tm4oPqbYDioAgACHhoCAABI8gIAACRKAgAALXgCAAAPzAIAABxkA
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Subject: Re: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
To: brent.bilger@verizon.com
Cc: Ian Swett <ianswett=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>,  Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, "brent.bilger=40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org" <brent.bilger=40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
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--000000000000b1928d058e5ae041
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I believe that we largely agree, but a counter is not very good from a
distributed perspective. I=E2=80=99d consider it a non-starter.

I do have a proposal for QUIC v2 about preventing replay attacks on 0-RTT
that involves something similar - but 0-RTT is sort of guaranteed to land
on the same server based on routing on said token.

An initial packet is guaranteed to not land on the same server because
otherwise an attacker could target that single server.

Placing the counter in the load balancer infrastructure also isn=E2=80=99t =
good
because it requires coordination which is a vary scarce resource in high
volume areas.

But a counter isn=E2=80=99t necessary as you can just share some comparativ=
ely weak
keys and hash a timestamp. It will be good enough, and otherwise you can
use stronger 0-RTT tokens for return visits. The keys can be rotated
periodically and shared to an extend, and so forth.

On 23 July 2019 at 17.19.06, brent.bilger@verizon.com (
brent.bilger@verizon.com) wrote:

As noted on a different posting, Single Packet Authorization is based on
RFC 4226 which has both a counter and a time based approach. Personally, I
prefer a counter.

But again, this is all irrelevant because I=E2=80=99m not suggesting any on=
e
pre-authentication. I=E2=80=99m just using an example to show how it can st=
op
multiple types of attacks.

--000000000000b1928d058e5ae041
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">I believe that we la=
rgely agree, but a counter is not very good from a distributed perspective.=
 I=E2=80=99d consider it a non-starter.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" s=
tyle=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);ma=
rgin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"=
font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px=
;line-height:auto">I do have a proposal for QUIC v2 about preventing replay=
 attacks on 0-RTT that involves something similar - but 0-RTT is sort of gu=
aranteed to land on the same server based on routing on said token.</div><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D=
"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;colo=
r:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">An initial packet is guarant=
eed to not land on the same server because otherwise an attacker could targ=
et that single server.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-fami=
ly:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-hei=
ght:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helve=
tica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto=
">Placing the counter in the load balancer infrastructure also isn=E2=80=99=
t good because it requires coordination which is a vary scarce resource in =
high volume areas.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:H=
elvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:=
auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica=
,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">Bu=
t a counter isn=E2=80=99t necessary as you can just share some comparativel=
y weak keys and hash a timestamp. It will be good enough, and otherwise you=
 can use stronger 0-RTT tokens for return visits. The keys can be rotated p=
eriodically and shared to an extend, and so forth.</div> <br><p class=3D"ai=
rmail_on">On 23 July 2019 at 17.19.06, <a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@veriz=
on.com">brent.bilger@verizon.com</a> (<a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizo=
n.com">brent.bilger@verizon.com</a>) wrote:</p> <blockquote type=3D"cite" c=
lass=3D"clean_bq"><span><div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:&qu=
ot;helvetica Neue&quot;,helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:normal;font-var=
iant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;=
text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;tex=
t-decoration:none">As noted on a different posting, Single Packet Authoriza=
tion is based on RFC 4226 which has both a counter and a time based approac=
h. Personally, I prefer a counter.</div><div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font=
-family:&quot;helvetica Neue&quot;,helvetica;font-size:14px;font-style:norm=
al;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-a=
lign:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spac=
ing:0px;text-decoration:none"><br class=3D""></div><div style=3D"color:rgb(=
0,0,0);font-family:&quot;helvetica Neue&quot;,helvetica;font-size:14px;font=
-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:no=
rmal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:norma=
l;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">But again, this is all irrelevant =
because I=E2=80=99m not suggesting any one pre-authentication. I=E2=80=99m =
just using an example to show how it can stop multiple types of attacks.</d=
iv></div></span></blockquote></body></html>

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From: Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>
To: "brent.bilger@verizon.com" <brent.bilger@verizon.com>, =?utf-8?B?TWlra2VsIEZhaG7DuGUgSsO4cmdlbnNlbg==?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
Thread-Topic: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
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From: Peter Thatcher <pthatcher@google.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 11:37:04 -0400
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] [hybi] WebTransport Side Meeting (Tuesday, 15:20)
To: Eric Kinnear <ekinnear=40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: Andy Green <andy@warmcat.com>, Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, hybi@ietf.org,  David Schinazi <dschinazi@google.com>, dispatch@ietf.org,  HTTP Working Group <ietf-http-wg@w3.org>, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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At a quick glance,
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kinnear-httpbis-http2-transport/?inc=
lude_text=3D1
seems
like a decent fit for the WebTransport  API.  It seems better than trying
to fit the WebSocket API.  But do we expect people to implement it on
servers before they implement QUIC?  I suppose even if it takes longer, it
may have the advantage of working on more networks than QUIC and HTTP/3
potentially (for networks that still block UDP, for example).



On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 5:29 PM Eric Kinnear <ekinnear=3D
40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

>
>
> > On Jul 22, 2019, at 4:59 PM, Andy Green <andy@warmcat.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > On 7/22/19 1:36 PM, Victor Vasiliev wrote:
> >> Hello everyone,
> >> Today, at the dispatch working group meeting (18:10), I am going to
> present WebTransport. WebTransport is a protocol framework that allows
> multiplexed and datagram-oriented transport protocols to be used by the w=
eb
> applications (think =E2=80=9CWebSocket for UDP=E2=80=9D).
> >
> > "Historically, web applications that needed bidirectional data stream
> >   between a client and a server could rely on WebSockets [RFC6455], a
> >   message-based protocol compatible with Web security model.  However,
> >   since the abstraction it provides is a single ordered stream of
> >   messages, it suffers from head-of-line blocking (HOLB), meaning that
> >   all messages must be sent and received in order even if they are
> >   independent and some of them are no longer needed.  This makes it a
> >   poor fit for latency sensitive applications which rely on partial
> >   reliability and stream independence for performance."
> >
> > The HOLB isn't really entirely the case... RFC6455 ws allows arbitrary
> fragmentation of messages allowing interleaving with control frames.
> >
> > ws-over-h2 allows you to can the h2 stream when you want as well.
> >
> > " Each new stream would require a WebSocket handshake to agree on
> >      application protocol used, meaning that it would take at least one
> >      RTT for each new stream before the client can write to it."
> >
> > Yes it was knowingly done as a hack to try to encourage uptake from
> browser vendors... it's not really integrated into the encapsulating
> protocol.
> >
> >>  * WebTransport overview:
> >>    https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vvv-webtransport-overview-00
> >>  * QuicTransport:
> >>    https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vvv-webtransport-quic-00
> >>  * Http3Transport:
> >>    https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vvv-webtransport-http3-00
> >
> > There's no h2 transport implementation?
> >
> > Not everything that might want to use this will get h3 capability in a
> reasonable timeframe.  If there's more momentum behind it than RFC8441
> there's probably room for a generic long-lived bidirectional extension to
> h2 either reusing DATA or a new frame type.
>
> Definitely agree! I know that we=E2=80=99ve been chatting a bit with Vict=
or about
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kinnear-httpbis-http2-transport/
> which aims to provide this, and I think it would be worth making sure tha=
t
> this works nicely with WebTransport.
> -00 for that document covers effectively what you=E2=80=99d get with a ne=
w frame
> type, and -01 extends 8441 to cover more than just WebSockets with the
> extended CONNECT handshake.
> I don=E2=80=99t have a particularly strong preference for the mechanism u=
sed, but
> rather care more about the outcome =E2=80=94 very much agree that this is=
 a useful
> component.
>
> Thanks,
> Eric
>
> >
> > It's a good idea to have it ride on other protocols.  Not doing this
> really hurt RFC6455 ws since deploying it usually needed extra, different
> servers with the attendant difficulties interoperating with other protoco=
ls.
> >
> > I really suggest thinking through the effects of not having an RFC6455
> type subprotocol (unless I failed to spot it).  It really makes an implic=
it
> assumption about what the stream will carry that doesn't scale beyond one
> server carrying one thing.  That's not how things tend to pan out if the
> protocol is useful.  The url path could be hacked to imply the subprotoco=
l
> but if that's not standardized it's still a mess.  And the subprotocol
> binding may be orthogonal to the url layout complicating things needlessl=
y.
> >
> > -Andy
> >
> >>  * Web API Spec draft: https://wicg.github.io/web-transport/
> >>  * Discussion on use cases:
> >>    https://discourse.wicg.io/t/webtransport-proposal/3508
> >> Cheers,
> >>   Victor.
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> hybi mailing list
> >> hybi@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hybi
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> dispatch mailing list
> dispatch@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><br></div>At a quick glance,=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://=
datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kinnear-httpbis-http2-transport/?include_tex=
t=3D1">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kinnear-httpbis-http2-transpo=
rt/?include_text=3D1</a>=C2=A0seems like a decent fit for the WebTransport=
=C2=A0=C2=A0API.=C2=A0 It seems better than trying to fit the WebSocket API=
.=C2=A0 But do we expect people to implement it on servers before they impl=
ement QUIC?=C2=A0 I suppose even if it takes longer, it may have the advant=
age of working on more networks than QUIC and HTTP/3 potentially (for netwo=
rks that still block UDP, for example).=C2=A0<div><br></div><div><br></div>=
</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">=
On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 5:29 PM Eric Kinnear &lt;ekinnear=3D<a href=3D"mail=
to:40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org">40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br=
></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;=
border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
<br>
&gt; On Jul 22, 2019, at 4:59 PM, Andy Green &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:andy@war=
mcat.com" target=3D"_blank">andy@warmcat.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; On 7/22/19 1:36 PM, Victor Vasiliev wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; Hello everyone,<br>
&gt;&gt; Today, at the dispatch working group meeting (18:10), I am going t=
o present WebTransport. WebTransport is a protocol framework that allows mu=
ltiplexed and datagram-oriented transport protocols to be used by the web a=
pplications (think =E2=80=9CWebSocket for UDP=E2=80=9D).<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &quot;Historically, web applications that needed bidirectional data st=
ream<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0between a client and a server could rely on WebSockets [RF=
C6455], a<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0message-based protocol compatible with Web security model.=
=C2=A0 However,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0since the abstraction it provides is a single ordered stre=
am of<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0messages, it suffers from head-of-line blocking (HOLB), me=
aning that<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0all messages must be sent and received in order even if th=
ey are<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0independent and some of them are no longer needed.=C2=A0 T=
his makes it a<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0poor fit for latency sensitive applications which rely on =
partial<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0reliability and stream independence for performance.&quot;=
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; The HOLB isn&#39;t really entirely the case... RFC6455 ws allows arbit=
rary fragmentation of messages allowing interleaving with control frames.<b=
r>
&gt; <br>
&gt; ws-over-h2 allows you to can the h2 stream when you want as well.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; &quot; Each new stream would require a WebSocket handshake to agree on=
<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 application protocol used, meaning that it would t=
ake at least one<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 RTT for each new stream before the client can writ=
e to it.&quot;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Yes it was knowingly done as a hack to try to encourage uptake from br=
owser vendors... it&#39;s not really integrated into the encapsulating prot=
ocol.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 * WebTransport overview:<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vvv-webt=
ransport-overview-00" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ie=
tf.org/html/draft-vvv-webtransport-overview-00</a><br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 * QuicTransport:<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vvv-webt=
ransport-quic-00" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.o=
rg/html/draft-vvv-webtransport-quic-00</a><br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 * Http3Transport:<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vvv-webt=
ransport-http3-00" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.=
org/html/draft-vvv-webtransport-http3-00</a><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; There&#39;s no h2 transport implementation?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Not everything that might want to use this will get h3 capability in a=
 reasonable timeframe.=C2=A0 If there&#39;s more momentum behind it than RF=
C8441 there&#39;s probably room for a generic long-lived bidirectional exte=
nsion to h2 either reusing DATA or a new frame type.<br>
<br>
Definitely agree! I know that we=E2=80=99ve been chatting a bit with Victor=
 about <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kinnear-httpbis-ht=
tp2-transport/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ie=
tf.org/doc/draft-kinnear-httpbis-http2-transport/</a> which aims to provide=
 this, and I think it would be worth making sure that this works nicely wit=
h WebTransport. <br>
-00 for that document covers effectively what you=E2=80=99d get with a new =
frame type, and -01 extends 8441 to cover more than just WebSockets with th=
e extended CONNECT handshake.<br>
I don=E2=80=99t have a particularly strong preference for the mechanism use=
d, but rather care more about the outcome =E2=80=94 very much agree that th=
is is a useful component.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
Eric<br>
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; It&#39;s a good idea to have it ride on other protocols.=C2=A0 Not doi=
ng this really hurt RFC6455 ws since deploying it usually needed extra, dif=
ferent servers with the attendant difficulties interoperating with other pr=
otocols.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I really suggest thinking through the effects of not having an RFC6455=
 type subprotocol (unless I failed to spot it).=C2=A0 It really makes an im=
plicit assumption about what the stream will carry that doesn&#39;t scale b=
eyond one server carrying one thing.=C2=A0 That&#39;s not how things tend t=
o pan out if the protocol is useful.=C2=A0 The url path could be hacked to =
imply the subprotocol but if that&#39;s not standardized it&#39;s still a m=
ess.=C2=A0 And the subprotocol binding may be orthogonal to the url layout =
complicating things needlessly.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; -Andy<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 * Web API Spec draft: <a href=3D"https://wicg.github.io/web-=
transport/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://wicg.github.io/web=
-transport/</a><br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 * Discussion on use cases:<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://discourse.wicg.io/t/webtransport-p=
roposal/3508" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://discourse.wicg.i=
o/t/webtransport-proposal/3508</a><br>
&gt;&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0Victor.<br>
&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt; hybi mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:hybi@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">hybi@ietf.org</=
a><br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hybi" rel=3D"nore=
ferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hybi</a><br=
>
&gt; <br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
dispatch mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:dispatch@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dispatch@ietf.org</a=
><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

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Subject: Re: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
To: Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, "brent.bilger@verizon.com" <brent.bilger@verizon.com>
Cc: Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>,  "brent.bilger=40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org" <brent.bilger=40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>,  Ian Swett <ianswett=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
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I agree that only the time based approach is workable. But again, it is not
about keeping clients authenticated. It is only to allow the initial packet
to survive end to end, once. An since timers are inaccurate, you need some
slack. That opens for an attack. But that attack assumes that an earlier
token has been intercepted within the last few minutes, and if that is
possible, you have a compromised machine that can do this all day long. So
it is no better than no token. It is not perfect. But even then, you can
filter on high volume tokens - it will kill a few clients that generate
tokens the same way, but that is it.

However, you would not normally have a compromised client, and if you do,
well, you have bigger problems. And if somehow the 10minute pre-auth token
was stolen without any means to regenerated, that is useless, so nobody
would bother to raise such an attack.


On 23 July 2019 at 17.36.21, Roberto Peon (fenix@fb.com) wrote:

If you=E2=80=99re in a =E2=80=9Csmall=E2=80=9D deployment that is exposed t=
o the internet, then
you=E2=80=99re going to be dead regardless of the tokens because the links =
will be
full of useless packets if someone decides to do an attack at any
reasonable scale.

If you=E2=80=99re in a =E2=80=9Clarge=E2=80=9D deployment that is exposed t=
o the internet, then a
counter-based implementation that requires any state at servers (to verify
the counter) is likely to be very expensive as it either requires an RPC
for each incoming packet-to-be-authenticated, or it requires that the
packet be routed to a specific server, which makes the individual servers
DoSable.

If you have a =E2=80=9Clarge=E2=80=9D deployment and use a time-based imple=
mentation, then
you have the goldilocks-like problem of choosing the correct TTL, and that
is going to be difficult as the DoS effectiveness becomes directly
(inversely) related to the TTL length as TTL length determines the amount
of the population that is no longer authenticated. A short TTL means very
little benefit can be ascribed by having the token because few clients will
remain authenticated.

The combination of time and counter doesn=E2=80=99t negate any of the disad=
vantages
of either.

I don=E2=80=99t ultimately see a way out of having to heuristically examine
5-tuples.
-=3DR



*From: *"brent.bilger@verizon.com" <brent.bilger@verizon.com>
*Date: *Tuesday, July 23, 2019 at 11:19 AM
*To: *Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen <mikkelfj@gmail.com>
*Cc: *Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, "brent.bilger@verizon.com" <
brent.bilger@verizon.com>, Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com>, "
quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, "brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.or=
g"
<brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Ian Swett <ianswett=3D
40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
*Subject: *Re: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy







On Jul 23, 2019, at 7:53 AM, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen <mikkelfj@gm=
ail.com>
wrote:



It is not that easy to steal a token and replay, but it can happen.



Yes, it requires compromising a client and stealing the key or just using
the key from a back door. In practice the latter may be advantageous to the
adversary because the source of the attack will be from a normal location
and because future device authorizations may include a fingerprint of the
device - a fingerprint that would fail on the stolen key. But look at what
we=E2=80=99ve done to the unauthorized adversary with the pre-authenticatio=
n token
- defeated resource DoS, information leakage, all vulnerabilities of the
server, all configuration errors of the applications of the server. And it
augments TLS to defeat man-in-the-middle attacks.





If you add a time factor such an attack will have limited value. In fact a
token need not be valid for more than about 10 minutes to account for
skewed clocks.



As noted on a different posting, Single Packet Authorization is based on
RFC 4226 which has both a counter and a time based approach. Personally, I
prefer a counter.



But again, this is all irrelevant because I=E2=80=99m not suggesting any on=
e
pre-authentication. I=E2=80=99m just using an example to show how it can st=
op
multiple types of attacks.



Brent





On 23 July 2019 at 16.41.09, Roberto Peon (fenix@fb.com) wrote:

I=E2=80=99d assume #1 is less likely to experience crippling SYN-based DoS =
attacks,
and could otherwise be accomplished by limiting access in IP-space
(imperfect, but we=E2=80=99re looking for =E2=80=9Cgood-enough=E2=80=9D, he=
re).


.. which means that I think we should consider 2+3 only, really.

For #2 and #3, which I suspect have significant overlaps (sites may provide
services both to logged-in users and users who aren=E2=80=99t logged in), t=
he
pre-authorization either:
  a) can be DoS=E2=80=99d itself.
  b) can be used to do a DoS in the future.

In case b, as an attacker, you=E2=80=99d get or wait for the client to
authenticate, then use that authentication in a replay attack, e.g. by
replicating the auth token across many hosts.
In cases where you are disallowed to replicate the auth token, e.g. because
it is tied to a particular IP, you can help solve the replay attack however
you=E2=80=99ll be biasing traffic to users whose IP is stable and who are l=
ogged
in/auth=E2=80=99d.
In the pre-shared key scenario that was described, if any one client leaks
the shared-secret, then it becomes not very useful and certainly doesn=E2=
=80=99t
protect against a DoS. I=E2=80=99d guess that the probability of the loss o=
f a
symmetric key is proportional to the breadth of the distribution of the key=
.

What I=E2=80=99m trying to point out is that this doesn=E2=80=99t really se=
em to solve the
generic DoS attack.
You=E2=80=99ll still need to do some heuristics/rules based upon whatever i=
s
observable, at a minimum the 5-tuple.
Getting more than the 5-tuple to be visible will take more work by the
server, true, but given other design constraints, I don=E2=80=99t see how t=
hat is
avoidable.

-=3DR



*From: *"brent.bilger@verizon.com" <brent.bilger@verizon.com>
*Date: *Tuesday, July 23, 2019 at 9:59 AM
*To: *Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>
*Cc: *"brent.bilger@verizon.com" <brent.bilger@verizon.com>, Watson Ladd <
watsonbladd@gmail.com>, "brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org"
<brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.o=
rg>,
Ian Swett <ianswett=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
*Subject: *Re: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy



There are lots of possible scenarios, so please just consider these to be
examples. Let=E2=80=99s divide the world of servers in to 1) enterprise
business-to-business websites, 2) websites meant for consumers where
authentication is desirable, and 3) websites that will want to allow their
users to be anonymous, therefore, pre-authentication would not apply.



Enterprise business-to-business websites could use something similar to the
Software Defined Perimeter (SDP) Single Packet Authorization (SPA) protocol
created by the Cloud Security Alliance. It uses the fact that clients are
on-boarded to the system in a one time event to provide the clients with a
shared secret key. The key is used in a counter-based HMAC calculation.
Since only an authorized client can calculate the proper HMAC, the HMAC can
be used for pre-authentication. Thus, the pre-authentication token could
look something like this:

Client->Server: ClientID, Counter, HMAC[ClientID || Counter, Ks] where Ks
is a shared secret key that both the client and server have.

On the server side, the server would recalculate the HMAC and compare it to
the one provided by the client.

Note that this information is sent from the client to the server in clear
text (i.e., not encrypted).

In practice, there would probably be more fields, but the important part is
that the one-time on boarding enables a lifetime of pre-authentication
tokens.



Websites meant for consumers would probably be handled differently -
specifically, no on-boarding. That means there would be some kind of token
service - similar to OAuth, but operating prior to the TCP equivalent of
SYN/ACK. Perhaps CloudFlair or Google or Microsoft could invent something
like this and offer it as a service???



Again, there will be other websites that will not want pre-authentication
because they want to allow anonymous users to their site.



Brent



On Jul 23, 2019, at 6:26 AM, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com> wrote:



I'm trying to understand how anything was pre-authenticated without
suffering from all of the same problems.

How would such pre-authentication be done in practice, especially in
scenarios where the server doesn't have a whitelist of clients, and that
service desires traffic from non-malicious clients?

-=3DR

Get Outlook for Android
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__aka.ms_ghei36&d=3DD=
wMF-g&c=3DudBTRvFvXC5Dhqg7UHpJlPps3mZ3LRxpb6__0PomBTQ&r=3DW-O0t0zwhgXHP8ujp=
h6uz3rH0MtuaLwEr_7gE2p1X5o&m=3DCV-HIhbRVp-argiNrVu_DK7rONk5xt9L5r0Efmw170I&=
s=3DWXhjQ5cGfCrw6BSXdq5jydKEbOF2Pu3tjL2QZWXz6eY&e=3D>


------------------------------

*From:* brent.bilger@verizon.com <brent.bilger@verizon.com>
*Sent:* Tuesday, July 23, 2019 8:21:05 AM
*To:* Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com>
*Cc:* brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org <
brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>;
quic@ietf.org <quic@ietf.org>; brent.bilger@verizon.com <
brent.bilger@verizon.com>; Ian Swett <ianswett=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.or=
g>
*Subject:* Re: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy







On Jul 22, 2019, at 9:16 PM, Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com> wrote:



On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 5:29 PM
<brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:




On Jul 22, 2019, at 10:10 AM, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com> wrote:

When you=E2=80=99re talking about pre-authentication, are you referring to =
the
0-rtt stuff?


0-RTT is good stuff. It reduces time for a device that=E2=80=99s already kn=
own to
be authorized to connect to the server.

Part of the problem is to stop resource DoS. The other part is about
information leakage.

Let=E2=80=99s assume a time when all website use QUIC and let's take an adv=
ersary
who has just learned about a vulnerability in Wordpress. The adversary
wants to scan the Internet finding Wordpress sites. Now, if the QUIC
connection required pre-authentication, then the server would be black to
the connection and the adversary could not determine if the site uses
Wordpress. But, as it stands today, in this future time, the adversary
scans the Internet, connects to the server, and is handed a Wordpress login
screen. Now the adversary knows where to attack.


If connection requires preauthentication then no one can see the site, no?




In the enterprise it is a little different. Companies implement reverse
proxies to try to protect servers from unauthorized users. But what if the
servers required a pre-authentication token. Then, reverse proxies would
not be needed.


So I think there are two different things here, or maybe I'm
misunderstanding:
1: We have servers that have a limited number of clients that will
ever want to connect to them, and want to enable other devices to
filter the traffic, so need some mechanism that enables a middlebox to
filter.



No middle box! Pre-authentication makes servers self-defending. Lack of
pre-authentication is why we have middle boxes.



2: We have servers generally available to the public and are concerned
that the QUIC version of a SYN flood can't be dealt with (despite
evidence to the contrary).



Companies and website owners have to pay for anti-DoS services from the
likes of Verizon and others BECAUSE servers listen to all clients. With
pre-authentication, the need to have an anti-DoS service would be greatly
reduced because servers would not respond to unauthorized clients.



And the point about information leakage is important, too.



Brent




I don't know much about how Cloudflare (my place of employment)  deals
with 2 but hopefully some people who do/implementors can speak up
about how much of a problem it is. But 1 is I think very much a
nongoal: middlebox ossification is part of the reason we have QUIC.

Sincerely,
Watson Ladd







Brent Bliger

Director-Technology Verizon SDP

brent.bilger@verizon.com















Brent Bliger

Director-Technology Verizon SDP

brent.bilger@verizon.com







Brent Bliger

Director-Technology Verizon SDP

brent.bilger@verizon.com

--000000000000909469058e5b168e
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">I agree that only th=
e time based approach is workable. But again, it is not about keeping clien=
ts authenticated. It is only to allow the initial packet to survive end to =
end, once. An since timers are inaccurate, you need some slack. That opens =
for an attack. But that attack assumes that an earlier token has been inter=
cepted within the last few minutes, and if that is possible, you have a com=
promised machine that can do this all day long. So it is no better than no =
token. It is not perfect. But even then, you can filter on high volume toke=
ns - it will kill a few clients that generate tokens the same way, but that=
 is it.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Ar=
ial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br><=
/div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font=
-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">However, you =
would not normally have a compromised client, and if you do, well, you have=
 bigger problems. And if somehow the 10minute pre-auth token was stolen wit=
hout any means to regenerated, that is useless, so nobody would bother to r=
aise such an attack.</div> <div id=3D"bloop_sign_1563896400236510976" class=
=3D"bloop_sign"><div style=3D"font-family:helvetica,arial;font-size:13px"><=
br></div></div> <br><p class=3D"airmail_on">On 23 July 2019 at 17.36.21, Ro=
berto Peon (<a href=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.com">fenix@fb.com</a>) wrote:</p> <b=
lockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq"><span><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=
=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div></div><div>






<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If you=E2=80=99re in a =E2=80=9Csmall=E2=80=9D deplo=
yment that is exposed to the internet, then you=E2=80=99re going to be dead=
 regardless of the tokens because the links will be full of useless packets=
 if someone decides to do an attack at any reasonable scale.<br>
<br>
If you=E2=80=99re in a =E2=80=9Clarge=E2=80=9D deployment that is exposed t=
o the internet, then a counter-based implementation that requires any state=
 at servers (to verify the counter) is likely to be very expensive as it ei=
ther requires an RPC for each incoming packet-to-be-authenticated,
 or it requires that the packet be routed to a specific server, which makes=
 the individual servers DoSable.<br>
<br>
If you have a =E2=80=9Clarge=E2=80=9D deployment and use a time-based imple=
mentation, then you have the goldilocks-like problem of choosing the correc=
t TTL, and that is going to be difficult as the DoS effectiveness becomes d=
irectly (inversely) related to the TTL length as
 TTL length determines the amount of the population that is no longer authe=
nticated. A short TTL means very little benefit can be ascribed by having t=
he token because few clients will remain authenticated.<br>
<br>
The combination of time and counter doesn=E2=80=99t negate any of the disad=
vantages of either.<br>
<br>
I don=E2=80=99t ultimately see a way out of having to heuristically examine=
 5-tuples.<br>
-=3DR<br>
<br>
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From=
: </span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">&quot;<a href=3D"=
mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.bilger@verizon.com</a>&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.bilger@verizon.com</a>&gt;<b=
r>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, July 23, 2019 at 11:19 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mikkelfj=
@gmail.com">mikkelfj@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>Roberto Peon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.com">fenix@fb.com</a=
>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.bilger@veriz=
on.com</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.bilg=
er@verizon.com</a>&gt;, Watson Ladd &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:watsonbladd@gmail=
.com">watsonbladd@gmail.com</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org"=
>quic@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;, &quot;brent.bilger=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.o=
rg">40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;brent.bilger=3D<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org">40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;, Ia=
n
 Swett &lt;ianswett=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org">40goog=
le.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
</p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Jul 23, 2019, at 7:53 AM, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=
=B8rgensen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com">mikkelfj@gmail.com</a>=
&gt; wrote:</p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">It is not that easy to steal a token and replay, but it can happen.</spa=
n></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Yes, it requires compromising a client and stealing =
the key or just using the key from a back door. In practice the latter may =
be advantageous to the adversary because the source of the attack will be f=
rom a normal location and because
 future device authorizations may include a fingerprint of the device - a f=
ingerprint that would fail on the stolen key. But look at what we=E2=80=99v=
e done to the unauthorized adversary with the pre-authentication token - de=
feated resource DoS, information leakage,
 all vulnerabilities of the server, all configuration errors of the applica=
tions of the server. And it augments TLS to defeat man-in-the-middle attack=
s.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
</p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">If you add a time factor such an attack will have limited value. In fact=
 a token need not be valid for more than about 10 minutes to account for sk=
ewed clocks.</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As noted on a different posting, Single Packet Autho=
rization is based on RFC 4226 which has both a counter and a time based app=
roach. Personally, I prefer a counter.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">But again, this is all irrelevant because I=E2=80=99=
m not suggesting any one pre-authentication. I=E2=80=99m just using an exam=
ple to show how it can stop multiple types of attacks.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Brent</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
</p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a"><br style=3D"font-variant-caps:normal;text-align:start;word-spacing:0px"=
>
<br>
</span></p>
<p class=3D"airmailon"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">On 23 July 2019 at 16.41.09, Roberto Peon (<a href=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.co=
m">fenix@fb.com</a>) wrote:</span></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;font-variant-caps=
:normal;text-align:start;word-spacing:0px">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">I=E2=80=99d=
 assume #1 is less likely to experience crippling SYN-based DoS attacks, an=
d could otherwise be accomplished by limiting
 access in IP-space (imperfect, but we=E2=80=99re looking for =E2=80=9Cgood=
-enough=E2=80=9D, here).</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica"><br>
.. which means that I think we should consider 2+3 only, really.<br>
<br>
For #2 and #3, which I suspect have significant overlaps (sites may provide=
 services both to logged-in users and users who aren=E2=80=99t logged in), =
the pre-authorization either:<br>
=C2=A0 a) can be DoS=E2=80=99d itself.<br>
=C2=A0 b) can be used to do a DoS in the future.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">In case b, =
as an attacker, you=E2=80=99d get or wait for the client to authenticate, t=
hen use that authentication in a replay attack,
 e.g. by replicating the auth token across many hosts.<br>
In cases where you are disallowed to replicate the auth token, e.g. because=
 it is tied to a particular IP, you can help solve the replay attack howeve=
r you=E2=80=99ll be biasing traffic to users whose IP is stable and who are=
 logged in/auth=E2=80=99d.<br>
In the pre-shared key scenario that was described, if any one client leaks =
the shared-secret, then it becomes not very useful and certainly doesn=E2=
=80=99t protect against a DoS. I=E2=80=99d guess that the probability of th=
e loss of a symmetric key is proportional to the breadth
 of the distribution of the key.<br>
<br>
What I=E2=80=99m trying to point out is that this doesn=E2=80=99t really se=
em to solve the generic DoS attack.<br>
You=E2=80=99ll still need to do some heuristics/rules based upon whatever i=
s observable, at a minimum the 5-tuple.<br>
Getting more than the 5-tuple to be visible will take more work by the serv=
er, true, but given other design constraints, I don=E2=80=99t see how that =
is avoidable.<br>
<br>
-=3DR</span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">From:<sp=
an class=3D"apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span></b><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:12.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger=
@verizon.com">brent.bilger@verizon.com</a>&quot;
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.bilger@verizon.com</=
a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date:<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Tuesday, Jul=
y 23, 2019 at 9:59 AM<br>
<b>To:<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Roberto Peon &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.com">fenix@fb.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>&quot;<a href=
=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.bilger@verizon.com</a>&quot; &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.bilger@verizon.com</a>&g=
t;, Watson Ladd &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:watsonbladd@gmail.com">watsonbladd@gm=
ail.com</a>&gt;,
 &quot;brent.bilger=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org">40ver=
izon.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;brent.bilger=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40ve=
rizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org">40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;, &quot;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:q=
uic@ietf.org">quic@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
 Ian Swett &lt;ianswett=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org">40=
google.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Re: [E] D=
oS-ing QUIC servers is too easy</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:Helvetica"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">There are l=
ots of possible scenarios, so please just consider these to be examples. Le=
t=E2=80=99s divide the world of servers in to
 1) enterprise business-to-business websites, 2) websites meant for consume=
rs where authentication is desirable, and 3) websites that will want to all=
ow their users to be anonymous, therefore, pre-authentication would not app=
ly.</span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">Enterprise =
business-to-business websites could use something similar to the Software D=
efined Perimeter (SDP) Single Packet Authorization
 (SPA) protocol created by the Cloud Security Alliance. It uses the fact th=
at clients are on-boarded to the system in a one time event to provide the =
clients with a shared secret key. The key is used in a counter-based HMAC c=
alculation. Since only an authorized
 client can calculate the proper HMAC, the HMAC can be used for pre-authent=
ication. Thus, the pre-authentication token could look something like this:=
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">Client-&gt;=
Server: ClientID, Counter, HMAC[ClientID || Counter, Ks] where Ks is a shar=
ed secret key that both the client and server
 have.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">On the serv=
er side, the server would recalculate the HMAC and compare it to the one pr=
ovided by the client.=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">Note that t=
his information is sent from the client to the server in clear text (i.e., =
not encrypted).</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">In practice=
, there would probably be more fields, but the important part is that the o=
ne-time on boarding enables a lifetime
 of pre-authentication tokens.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">Websites me=
ant for consumers would probably be handled differently - specifically, no =
on-boarding. That means there would be
 some kind of token service - similar to OAuth, but operating prior to the =
TCP equivalent of SYN/ACK. Perhaps CloudFlair or Google or Microsoft could =
invent something like this and offer it as a service???</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">Again, ther=
e will be other websites that will not want pre-authentication because they=
 want to allow anonymous users to their
 site.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">Brent</span=
></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">=C2=A0</span></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">On Jul 23, =
2019, at 6:26 AM, Roberto Peon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.com">fenix@fb=
.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">I&#39;m trying to unde=
rstand how anything was pre-authenticated without suffering from all of the=
 same problems.</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica=
"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">How would such pre-aut=
hentication be done in practice, especially in scenarios where the server d=
oesn&#39;t have a whitelist
 of clients, and that service desires traffic from non-malicious clients?</=
span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">-=3DR</span><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans=
-serif">Get<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"ht=
tps://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__aka.ms_ghei36&amp;d=3D=
DwMF-g&amp;c=3DudBTRvFvXC5Dhqg7UHpJlPps3mZ3LRxpb6__0PomBTQ&amp;r=3DW-O0t0zw=
hgXHP8ujph6uz3rH0MtuaLwEr_7gE2p1X5o&amp;m=3DCV-HIhbRVp-argiNrVu_DK7rONk5xt9=
L5r0Efmw170I&amp;s=3DWXhjQ5cGfCrw6BSXdq5jydKEbOF2Pu3tjL2QZWXz6eY&amp;e=3D">=
Outlook
 for Android</a></span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-fam=
ily:Helvetica"></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">
<hr size=3D"0" width=3D"89%" align=3D"center">
</span></div>
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">From:</s=
pan></b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0=
pt;font-family:Helvetica">=C2=A0</span></span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0=
pt;font-family:Helvetica"><a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent=
.bilger@verizon.com</a><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.bilger@verizon.com</a>=
&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Tuesday, Jul=
y 23, 2019 8:21:05 AM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Watson Ladd &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:watsonbladd@gmail.com">watsonbladd@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br=
>
<b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"mai=
lto:brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org">brent.bilger=3D40verizon.c=
om@dmarc.ietf.org</a><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org">brent.bilge=
r=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;;
 Roberto Peon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.com">fenix@fb.com</a>&gt;;<spa=
n class=3D"apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.=
org">quic@ietf.org</a><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@ietf.org</a>&gt;;<span class=3D"app=
le-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com=
">brent.bilger@verizon.com</a><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">=C2=A0<=
/span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.bilger@verizon.=
com</a>&gt;;
 Ian Swett &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ianswett=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org">ia=
nswett=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Re: [E] D=
oS-ing QUIC servers is too easy<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">=C2=A0=
</span></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">=C2=A0</span></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">On Jul 22, =
2019, at 9:16 PM, Watson Ladd &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:watsonbladd@gmail.com">=
watsonbladd@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica">On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 5:29 PM<br>
&lt;</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica"><a href=
=3D"mailto:brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org"><span style=3D"font=
-size:13.5pt">brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org</span></a></span>=
<span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica">&gt;
 wrote:</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica"></span=
></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica"><br>
<br>
<br>
On Jul 22, 2019, at 10:10 AM, Roberto Peon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.c=
om">fenix@fb.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
When you=E2=80=99re talking about pre-authentication, are you referring to =
the 0-rtt stuff?<br>
<br>
<br>
0-RTT is good stuff. It reduces time for a device that=E2=80=99s already kn=
own to be authorized to connect to the server.<br>
<br>
Part of the problem is to stop resource DoS. The other part is about inform=
ation leakage.<br>
<br>
Let=E2=80=99s assume a time when all website use QUIC and let&#39;s take an=
 adversary who has just learned about a vulnerability in Wordpress. The adv=
ersary wants to scan the Internet finding Wordpress sites. Now, if the QUIC=
 connection required pre-authentication, then
 the server would be black to the connection and the adversary could not de=
termine if the site uses Wordpress. But, as it stands today, in this future=
 time, the adversary scans the Internet, connects to the server, and is han=
ded a Wordpress login screen. Now
 the adversary knows where to attack.</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt=
;font-family:Helvetica"></span></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica"><br>
If connection requires preauthentication then no one can see the site, no?<=
/span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica"></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">=C2=A0</span></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica"><br>
In the enterprise it is a little different. Companies implement reverse pro=
xies to try to protect servers from unauthorized users. But what if the ser=
vers required a pre-authentication token. Then, reverse proxies would not b=
e needed.</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica"></sp=
an></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica"><br>
So I think there are two different things here, or maybe I&#39;m misunderst=
anding:<br>
1: We have servers that have a limited number of clients that will<br>
ever want to connect to them, and want to enable other devices to<br>
filter the traffic, so need some mechanism that enables a middlebox to<br>
filter.</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica"></span=
></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">No middle b=
ox! Pre-authentication makes servers self-defending. Lack of pre-authentica=
tion is why we have middle boxes.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">=C2=A0</span></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica">2: We have =
servers generally available to the public and are concerned<br>
that the QUIC version of a SYN flood can&#39;t be dealt with (despite<br>
evidence to the contrary).</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-famil=
y:Helvetica"></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">Companies a=
nd website owners have to pay for anti-DoS services=C2=A0from the likes of =
Verizon and others BECAUSE servers listen to
 all clients. With pre-authentication, the need to have an anti-DoS service=
 would be greatly reduced because servers would not respond to unauthorized=
 clients.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">And the poi=
nt about information leakage is important, too.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">Brent</span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">=C2=A0</span></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica"><br>
I don&#39;t know much about how Cloudflare (my place of employment) =C2=A0d=
eals<br>
with 2 but hopefully some people who do/implementors can speak up<br>
about how much of a problem it is. But 1 is I think very much a<br>
nongoal: middlebox ossification is part of the reason we have QUIC.<br>
<br>
Sincerely,<br>
Watson Ladd</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica"></=
span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin-bottom:13.5pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica"></sp=
an></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica"></sp=
an></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica">Brent Blige=
r</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica">Director-Te=
chnology=C2=A0Verizon SDP=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:Helvetica"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica"><a href=3D"=
mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.bilger@verizon.com</a></span><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:18.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica"></sp=
an></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica"></sp=
an></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin-bottom:13.5pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica"></sp=
an></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica"></sp=
an></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica">Brent Blige=
r</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica">Director-Te=
chnology=C2=A0Verizon SDP=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-=
family:Helvetica"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica"><a href=3D"=
mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.bilger@verizon.com</a></span><span s=
tyle=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica"></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:13.5pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a;color:black">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a;color:black">Brent Bliger</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a;color:black">Director-Technology=C2=A0Verizon SDP=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a;color:black"><a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.bilger@ver=
izon.com</a></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:18.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a;color:black">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a;color:black">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
</p>
</div>


</div></div></span></blockquote></body></html>

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Subject: Re: [Potential Spoof] Re: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
To: Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, "brent.bilger@verizon.com" <brent.bilger@verizon.com>
Cc: Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>,  "brent.bilger=40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org" <brent.bilger=40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>,  Ian Swett <ianswett=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
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Yes

On 23 July 2019 at 17.42.25, Roberto Peon (fenix@fb.com) wrote:

I think Mikkel is/was saying the same w.r.t. counters.

-=3DR



*From: *QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.co=
m
>
*Date: *Tuesday, July 23, 2019 at 11:38 AM
*To: *"brent.bilger@verizon.com" <brent.bilger@verizon.com>, Mikkel Fahn=C3=
=B8e
J=C3=B8rgensen <mikkelfj@gmail.com>
*Cc: *Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>,
"brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org" <brent.bilger=3D
40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Ian Swett <ianswett=3D
40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
*Subject: *[Potential Spoof] Re: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy



If you=E2=80=99re in a =E2=80=9Csmall=E2=80=9D deployment that is exposed t=
o the internet, then
you=E2=80=99re going to be dead regardless of the tokens because the links =
will be
full of useless packets if someone decides to do an attack at any
reasonable scale.

If you=E2=80=99re in a =E2=80=9Clarge=E2=80=9D deployment that is exposed t=
o the internet, then a
counter-based implementation that requires any state at servers (to verify
the counter) is likely to be very expensive as it either requires an RPC
for each incoming packet-to-be-authenticated, or it requires that the
packet be routed to a specific server, which makes the individual servers
DoSable.

If you have a =E2=80=9Clarge=E2=80=9D deployment and use a time-based imple=
mentation, then
you have the goldilocks-like problem of choosing the correct TTL, and that
is going to be difficult as the DoS effectiveness becomes directly
(inversely) related to the TTL length as TTL length determines the amount
of the population that is no longer authenticated. A short TTL means very
little benefit can be ascribed by having the token because few clients will
remain authenticated.

The combination of time and counter doesn=E2=80=99t negate any of the disad=
vantages
of either.

I don=E2=80=99t ultimately see a way out of having to heuristically examine
5-tuples.
-=3DR




*From: *"brent.bilger@verizon.com" <brent.bilger@verizon.com>
*Date: *Tuesday, July 23, 2019 at 11:19 AM
*To: *Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen <mikkelfj@gmail.com>
*Cc: *Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, "brent.bilger@verizon.com" <
brent.bilger@verizon.com>, Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com>, "
quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, "brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.or=
g"
<brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Ian Swett <ianswett=3D
40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
*Subject: *Re: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy








On Jul 23, 2019, at 7:53 AM, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen <mikkelfj@gm=
ail.com>
wrote:



It is not that easy to steal a token and replay, but it can happen.



Yes, it requires compromising a client and stealing the key or just using
the key from a back door. In practice the latter may be advantageous to the
adversary because the source of the attack will be from a normal location
and because future device authorizations may include a fingerprint of the
device - a fingerprint that would fail on the stolen key. But look at what
we=E2=80=99ve done to the unauthorized adversary with the pre-authenticatio=
n token
- defeated resource DoS, information leakage, all vulnerabilities of the
server, all configuration errors of the applications of the server. And it
augments TLS to defeat man-in-the-middle attacks.






If you add a time factor such an attack will have limited value. In fact a
token need not be valid for more than about 10 minutes to account for
skewed clocks.



As noted on a different posting, Single Packet Authorization is based on
RFC 4226 which has both a counter and a time based approach. Personally, I
prefer a counter.



But again, this is all irrelevant because I=E2=80=99m not suggesting any on=
e
pre-authentication. I=E2=80=99m just using an example to show how it can st=
op
multiple types of attacks.



Brent







On 23 July 2019 at 16.41.09, Roberto Peon (fenix@fb.com) wrote:

I=E2=80=99d assume #1 is less likely to experience crippling SYN-based DoS =
attacks,
and could otherwise be accomplished by limiting access in IP-space
(imperfect, but we=E2=80=99re looking for =E2=80=9Cgood-enough=E2=80=9D, he=
re).


.. which means that I think we should consider 2+3 only, really.

For #2 and #3, which I suspect have significant overlaps (sites may provide
services both to logged-in users and users who aren=E2=80=99t logged in), t=
he
pre-authorization either:
  a) can be DoS=E2=80=99d itself.
  b) can be used to do a DoS in the future.

In case b, as an attacker, you=E2=80=99d get or wait for the client to
authenticate, then use that authentication in a replay attack, e.g. by
replicating the auth token across many hosts.
In cases where you are disallowed to replicate the auth token, e.g. because
it is tied to a particular IP, you can help solve the replay attack however
you=E2=80=99ll be biasing traffic to users whose IP is stable and who are l=
ogged
in/auth=E2=80=99d.
In the pre-shared key scenario that was described, if any one client leaks
the shared-secret, then it becomes not very useful and certainly doesn=E2=
=80=99t
protect against a DoS. I=E2=80=99d guess that the probability of the loss o=
f a
symmetric key is proportional to the breadth of the distribution of the key=
.

What I=E2=80=99m trying to point out is that this doesn=E2=80=99t really se=
em to solve the
generic DoS attack.
You=E2=80=99ll still need to do some heuristics/rules based upon whatever i=
s
observable, at a minimum the 5-tuple.
Getting more than the 5-tuple to be visible will take more work by the
server, true, but given other design constraints, I don=E2=80=99t see how t=
hat is
avoidable.

-=3DR



*From: *"brent.bilger@verizon.com" <brent.bilger@verizon.com>
*Date: *Tuesday, July 23, 2019 at 9:59 AM
*To: *Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>
*Cc: *"brent.bilger@verizon.com" <brent.bilger@verizon.com>, Watson Ladd <
watsonbladd@gmail.com>, "brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org"
<brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.o=
rg>,
Ian Swett <ianswett=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
*Subject: *Re: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy



There are lots of possible scenarios, so please just consider these to be
examples. Let=E2=80=99s divide the world of servers in to 1) enterprise
business-to-business websites, 2) websites meant for consumers where
authentication is desirable, and 3) websites that will want to allow their
users to be anonymous, therefore, pre-authentication would not apply.



Enterprise business-to-business websites could use something similar to the
Software Defined Perimeter (SDP) Single Packet Authorization (SPA) protocol
created by the Cloud Security Alliance. It uses the fact that clients are
on-boarded to the system in a one time event to provide the clients with a
shared secret key. The key is used in a counter-based HMAC calculation.
Since only an authorized client can calculate the proper HMAC, the HMAC can
be used for pre-authentication. Thus, the pre-authentication token could
look something like this:

Client->Server: ClientID, Counter, HMAC[ClientID || Counter, Ks] where Ks
is a shared secret key that both the client and server have.

On the server side, the server would recalculate the HMAC and compare it to
the one provided by the client.

Note that this information is sent from the client to the server in clear
text (i.e., not encrypted).

In practice, there would probably be more fields, but the important part is
that the one-time on boarding enables a lifetime of pre-authentication
tokens.



Websites meant for consumers would probably be handled differently -
specifically, no on-boarding. That means there would be some kind of token
service - similar to OAuth, but operating prior to the TCP equivalent of
SYN/ACK. Perhaps CloudFlair or Google or Microsoft could invent something
like this and offer it as a service???



Again, there will be other websites that will not want pre-authentication
because they want to allow anonymous users to their site.



Brent



On Jul 23, 2019, at 6:26 AM, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com> wrote:



I'm trying to understand how anything was pre-authenticated without
suffering from all of the same problems.

How would such pre-authentication be done in practice, especially in
scenarios where the server doesn't have a whitelist of clients, and that
service desires traffic from non-malicious clients?

-=3DR

Get Outlook for Android
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__aka.ms_ghei36&d=3DD=
wMF-g&c=3DudBTRvFvXC5Dhqg7UHpJlPps3mZ3LRxpb6__0PomBTQ&r=3DW-O0t0zwhgXHP8ujp=
h6uz3rH0MtuaLwEr_7gE2p1X5o&m=3DCV-HIhbRVp-argiNrVu_DK7rONk5xt9L5r0Efmw170I&=
s=3DWXhjQ5cGfCrw6BSXdq5jydKEbOF2Pu3tjL2QZWXz6eY&e=3D>


------------------------------

*From:* brent.bilger@verizon.com <brent.bilger@verizon.com>
*Sent:* Tuesday, July 23, 2019 8:21:05 AM
*To:* Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com>
*Cc:* brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org <
brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>;
quic@ietf.org <quic@ietf.org>; brent.bilger@verizon.com <
brent.bilger@verizon.com>; Ian Swett <ianswett=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.or=
g>
*Subject:* Re: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy







On Jul 22, 2019, at 9:16 PM, Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com> wrote:



On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 5:29 PM
<brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:




On Jul 22, 2019, at 10:10 AM, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com> wrote:

When you=E2=80=99re talking about pre-authentication, are you referring to =
the
0-rtt stuff?


0-RTT is good stuff. It reduces time for a device that=E2=80=99s already kn=
own to
be authorized to connect to the server.

Part of the problem is to stop resource DoS. The other part is about
information leakage.

Let=E2=80=99s assume a time when all website use QUIC and let's take an adv=
ersary
who has just learned about a vulnerability in Wordpress. The adversary
wants to scan the Internet finding Wordpress sites. Now, if the QUIC
connection required pre-authentication, then the server would be black to
the connection and the adversary could not determine if the site uses
Wordpress. But, as it stands today, in this future time, the adversary
scans the Internet, connects to the server, and is handed a Wordpress login
screen. Now the adversary knows where to attack.


If connection requires preauthentication then no one can see the site, no?




In the enterprise it is a little different. Companies implement reverse
proxies to try to protect servers from unauthorized users. But what if the
servers required a pre-authentication token. Then, reverse proxies would
not be needed.


So I think there are two different things here, or maybe I'm
misunderstanding:
1: We have servers that have a limited number of clients that will
ever want to connect to them, and want to enable other devices to
filter the traffic, so need some mechanism that enables a middlebox to
filter.



No middle box! Pre-authentication makes servers self-defending. Lack of
pre-authentication is why we have middle boxes.



2: We have servers generally available to the public and are concerned
that the QUIC version of a SYN flood can't be dealt with (despite
evidence to the contrary).



Companies and website owners have to pay for anti-DoS services from the
likes of Verizon and others BECAUSE servers listen to all clients. With
pre-authentication, the need to have an anti-DoS service would be greatly
reduced because servers would not respond to unauthorized clients.



And the point about information leakage is important, too.



Brent




I don't know much about how Cloudflare (my place of employment)  deals
with 2 but hopefully some people who do/implementors can speak up
about how much of a problem it is. But 1 is I think very much a
nongoal: middlebox ossification is part of the reason we have QUIC.

Sincerely,
Watson Ladd







Brent Bliger

Director-Technology Verizon SDP

brent.bilger@verizon.com















Brent Bliger

Director-Technology Verizon SDP

brent.bilger@verizon.com







Brent Bliger

Director-Technology Verizon SDP

brent.bilger@verizon.com

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<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">Yes</div> <br><p cla=
ss=3D"airmail_on">On 23 July 2019 at 17.42.25, Roberto Peon (<a href=3D"mai=
lto:fenix@fb.com">fenix@fb.com</a>) wrote:</p> <blockquote type=3D"cite" cl=
ass=3D"clean_bq"><span><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><=
div></div><div>






<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think Mikkel is/was saying the same w.r.t. counter=
s.</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">-=3DR</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From=
: </span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">QUIC &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org">quic-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf o=
f Roberto Peon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.com">fenix@fb.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, July 23, 2019 at 11:38 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.bilger@v=
erizon.com</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.=
bilger@verizon.com</a>&gt;, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com">mikkelfj@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>Watson Ladd &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:watsonbladd@gmail.com">watsonb=
ladd@gmail.com</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@ietf.or=
g</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@ietf.org</a>&gt;, &qu=
ot;brent.bilger=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org">40verizon=
.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;brent.bilger=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40verizo=
n.com@dmarc.ietf.org">40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;, Ian Swett &lt;i=
answett=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org">40google.com@dmarc=
.ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>[Potential Spoof] Re: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy<=
/span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If you=E2=80=99re in a =E2=80=9Csmall=E2=80=9D deplo=
yment that is exposed to the internet, then you=E2=80=99re going to be dead=
 regardless of the tokens because the links will be full of useless packets=
 if someone decides to do an attack at any reasonable scale.<br>
<br>
If you=E2=80=99re in a =E2=80=9Clarge=E2=80=9D deployment that is exposed t=
o the internet, then a counter-based implementation that requires any state=
 at servers (to verify the counter) is likely to be very expensive as it ei=
ther requires an RPC for each incoming packet-to-be-authenticated,
 or it requires that the packet be routed to a specific server, which makes=
 the individual servers DoSable.<br>
<br>
If you have a =E2=80=9Clarge=E2=80=9D deployment and use a time-based imple=
mentation, then you have the goldilocks-like problem of choosing the correc=
t TTL, and that is going to be difficult as the DoS effectiveness becomes d=
irectly (inversely) related to the TTL length as
 TTL length determines the amount of the population that is no longer authe=
nticated. A short TTL means very little benefit can be ascribed by having t=
he token because few clients will remain authenticated.<br>
<br>
The combination of time and counter doesn=E2=80=99t negate any of the disad=
vantages of either.<br>
<br>
I don=E2=80=99t ultimately see a way out of having to heuristically examine=
 5-tuples.<br>
-=3DR<br>
<br>
<br>
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From=
: </span></b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;color:black">&quot;<a href=3D"=
mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.bilger@verizon.com</a>&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.bilger@verizon.com</a>&gt;<b=
r>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, July 23, 2019 at 11:19 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mikkelfj=
@gmail.com">mikkelfj@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>Roberto Peon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.com">fenix@fb.com</a=
>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.bilger@veriz=
on.com</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.bilg=
er@verizon.com</a>&gt;, Watson Ladd &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:watsonbladd@gmail=
.com">watsonbladd@gmail.com</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org"=
>quic@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;, &quot;brent.bilger=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.o=
rg">40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;brent.bilger=3D<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org">40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;, Ia=
n
 Swett &lt;ianswett=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org">40goog=
le.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
</p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Jul 23, 2019, at 7:53 AM, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=
=B8rgensen &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com">mikkelfj@gmail.com</a>=
&gt; wrote:</p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">It is not that easy to steal a token and replay, but it can happen.</spa=
n></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Yes, it requires compromising a client and stealing =
the key or just using the key from a back door. In practice the latter may =
be advantageous to the adversary because the source of the attack will be f=
rom a normal location and because
 future device authorizations may include a fingerprint of the device - a f=
ingerprint that would fail on the stolen key. But look at what we=E2=80=99v=
e done to the unauthorized adversary with the pre-authentication token - de=
feated resource DoS, information leakage,
 all vulnerabilities of the server, all configuration errors of the applica=
tions of the server. And it augments TLS to defeat man-in-the-middle attack=
s.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
</p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">If you add a time factor such an attack will have limited value. In fact=
 a token need not be valid for more than about 10 minutes to account for sk=
ewed clocks.</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">As noted on a different posting, Single Packet Autho=
rization is based on RFC 4226 which has both a counter and a time based app=
roach. Personally, I prefer a counter.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">But again, this is all irrelevant because I=E2=80=99=
m not suggesting any one pre-authentication. I=E2=80=99m just using an exam=
ple to show how it can stop multiple types of attacks.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Brent</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
</p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a"><br>
<br>
<br>
</span></p>
<p class=3D"airmailon"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">On 23 July 2019 at 16.41.09, Roberto Peon (<a href=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.co=
m">fenix@fb.com</a>) wrote:</span></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;font-variant-caps=
:normal;text-align:start;word-spacing:0px">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">I=E2=80=99d=
 assume #1 is less likely to experience crippling SYN-based DoS attacks, an=
d could otherwise be accomplished by limiting
 access in IP-space (imperfect, but we=E2=80=99re looking for =E2=80=9Cgood=
-enough=E2=80=9D, here).</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica"><br>
.. which means that I think we should consider 2+3 only, really.<br>
<br>
For #2 and #3, which I suspect have significant overlaps (sites may provide=
 services both to logged-in users and users who aren=E2=80=99t logged in), =
the pre-authorization either:<br>
=C2=A0 a) can be DoS=E2=80=99d itself.<br>
=C2=A0 b) can be used to do a DoS in the future.</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">In case b, =
as an attacker, you=E2=80=99d get or wait for the client to authenticate, t=
hen use that authentication in a replay attack,
 e.g. by replicating the auth token across many hosts.<br>
In cases where you are disallowed to replicate the auth token, e.g. because=
 it is tied to a particular IP, you can help solve the replay attack howeve=
r you=E2=80=99ll be biasing traffic to users whose IP is stable and who are=
 logged in/auth=E2=80=99d.<br>
In the pre-shared key scenario that was described, if any one client leaks =
the shared-secret, then it becomes not very useful and certainly doesn=E2=
=80=99t protect against a DoS. I=E2=80=99d guess that the probability of th=
e loss of a symmetric key is proportional to the breadth
 of the distribution of the key.<br>
<br>
What I=E2=80=99m trying to point out is that this doesn=E2=80=99t really se=
em to solve the generic DoS attack.<br>
You=E2=80=99ll still need to do some heuristics/rules based upon whatever i=
s observable, at a minimum the 5-tuple.<br>
Getting more than the 5-tuple to be visible will take more work by the serv=
er, true, but given other design constraints, I don=E2=80=99t see how that =
is avoidable.<br>
<br>
-=3DR</span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">From:<sp=
an class=3D"apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></span></b><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:12.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">&quot;<a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger=
@verizon.com">brent.bilger@verizon.com</a>&quot;
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.bilger@verizon.com</=
a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date:<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Tuesday, Jul=
y 23, 2019 at 9:59 AM<br>
<b>To:<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Roberto Peon &=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.com">fenix@fb.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>&quot;<a href=
=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.bilger@verizon.com</a>&quot; &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.bilger@verizon.com</a>&g=
t;, Watson Ladd &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:watsonbladd@gmail.com">watsonbladd@gm=
ail.com</a>&gt;,
 &quot;brent.bilger=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org">40ver=
izon.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;brent.bilger=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40ve=
rizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org">40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;, &quot;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:q=
uic@ietf.org">quic@ietf.org</a>&gt;,
 Ian Swett &lt;ianswett=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org">40=
google.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span></b>Re: [E] D=
oS-ing QUIC servers is too easy</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">There are l=
ots of possible scenarios, so please just consider these to be examples. Le=
t=E2=80=99s divide the world of servers in to
 1) enterprise business-to-business websites, 2) websites meant for consume=
rs where authentication is desirable, and 3) websites that will want to all=
ow their users to be anonymous, therefore, pre-authentication would not app=
ly.</span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">Enterprise =
business-to-business websites could use something similar to the Software D=
efined Perimeter (SDP) Single Packet Authorization
 (SPA) protocol created by the Cloud Security Alliance. It uses the fact th=
at clients are on-boarded to the system in a one time event to provide the =
clients with a shared secret key. The key is used in a counter-based HMAC c=
alculation. Since only an authorized
 client can calculate the proper HMAC, the HMAC can be used for pre-authent=
ication. Thus, the pre-authentication token could look something like this:=
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">Client-&gt;=
Server: ClientID, Counter, HMAC[ClientID || Counter, Ks] where Ks is a shar=
ed secret key that both the client and server
 have.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">On the serv=
er side, the server would recalculate the HMAC and compare it to the one pr=
ovided by the client.=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">Note that t=
his information is sent from the client to the server in clear text (i.e., =
not encrypted).</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">In practice=
, there would probably be more fields, but the important part is that the o=
ne-time on boarding enables a lifetime
 of pre-authentication tokens.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">Websites me=
ant for consumers would probably be handled differently - specifically, no =
on-boarding. That means there would be
 some kind of token service - similar to OAuth, but operating prior to the =
TCP equivalent of SYN/ACK. Perhaps CloudFlair or Google or Microsoft could =
invent something like this and offer it as a service???</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">Again, ther=
e will be other websites that will not want pre-authentication because they=
 want to allow anonymous users to their
 site.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">Brent</span=
></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">=C2=A0</span></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">On Jul 23, =
2019, at 6:26 AM, Roberto Peon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.com">fenix@fb=
.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">I&#39;m trying to unde=
rstand how anything was pre-authenticated without suffering from all of the=
 same problems.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">How would such pre-aut=
hentication be done in practice, especially in scenarios where the server d=
oesn&#39;t have a whitelist
 of clients, and that service desires traffic from non-malicious clients?</=
span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif">-=3DR</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans=
-serif">Get<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"ht=
tps://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__aka.ms_ghei36&amp;d=3D=
DwMF-g&amp;c=3DudBTRvFvXC5Dhqg7UHpJlPps3mZ3LRxpb6__0PomBTQ&amp;r=3DW-O0t0zw=
hgXHP8ujph6uz3rH0MtuaLwEr_7gE2p1X5o&amp;m=3DCV-HIhbRVp-argiNrVu_DK7rONk5xt9=
L5r0Efmw170I&amp;s=3DWXhjQ5cGfCrw6BSXdq5jydKEbOF2Pu3tjL2QZWXz6eY&amp;e=3D">=
Outlook
 for Android</a></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ar=
ial&quot;,sans-serif">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">
<hr size=3D"0" width=3D"79%" align=3D"center">
</span></div>
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">From:</s=
pan></b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0=
pt;font-family:Helvetica">=C2=A0</span></span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0=
pt;font-family:Helvetica"><a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent=
.bilger@verizon.com</a><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.bilger@verizon.com</a>=
&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Tuesday, Jul=
y 23, 2019 8:21:05 AM<br>
<b>To:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Watson Ladd &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:watsonbladd@gmail.com">watsonbladd@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br=
>
<b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"mai=
lto:brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org">brent.bilger=3D40verizon.c=
om@dmarc.ietf.org</a><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org">brent.bilge=
r=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;;
 Roberto Peon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.com">fenix@fb.com</a>&gt;;<spa=
n class=3D"apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.=
org">quic@ietf.org</a><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>&l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:quic@ietf.org">quic@ietf.org</a>&gt;;<span class=3D"app=
le-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com=
">brent.bilger@verizon.com</a><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">=C2=A0<=
/span>&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.bilger@verizon.=
com</a>&gt;;
 Ian Swett &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ianswett=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org">ia=
nswett=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>Re: [E] D=
oS-ing QUIC servers is too easy<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">=C2=A0=
</span></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">=C2=A0</span></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">On Jul 22, =
2019, at 9:16 PM, Watson Ladd &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:watsonbladd@gmail.com">=
watsonbladd@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica">On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 5:29 PM<br>
&lt;</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica"><a href=
=3D"mailto:brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org"><span style=3D"font=
-size:13.5pt">brent.bilger=3D40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org</span></a></span>=
<span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica">&gt;
 wrote:</span></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica"><br>
<br>
<br>
On Jul 22, 2019, at 10:10 AM, Roberto Peon &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:fenix@fb.c=
om">fenix@fb.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
When you=E2=80=99re talking about pre-authentication, are you referring to =
the 0-rtt stuff?<br>
<br>
<br>
0-RTT is good stuff. It reduces time for a device that=E2=80=99s already kn=
own to be authorized to connect to the server.<br>
<br>
Part of the problem is to stop resource DoS. The other part is about inform=
ation leakage.<br>
<br>
Let=E2=80=99s assume a time when all website use QUIC and let&#39;s take an=
 adversary who has just learned about a vulnerability in Wordpress. The adv=
ersary wants to scan the Internet finding Wordpress sites. Now, if the QUIC=
 connection required pre-authentication, then
 the server would be black to the connection and the adversary could not de=
termine if the site uses Wordpress. But, as it stands today, in this future=
 time, the adversary scans the Internet, connects to the server, and is han=
ded a Wordpress login screen. Now
 the adversary knows where to attack.</span></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica"><br>
If connection requires preauthentication then no one can see the site, no?<=
/span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">=C2=A0</span></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica"><br>
In the enterprise it is a little different. Companies implement reverse pro=
xies to try to protect servers from unauthorized users. But what if the ser=
vers required a pre-authentication token. Then, reverse proxies would not b=
e needed.</span></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica"><br>
So I think there are two different things here, or maybe I&#39;m misunderst=
anding:<br>
1: We have servers that have a limited number of clients that will<br>
ever want to connect to them, and want to enable other devices to<br>
filter the traffic, so need some mechanism that enables a middlebox to<br>
filter.</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">No middle b=
ox! Pre-authentication makes servers self-defending. Lack of pre-authentica=
tion is why we have middle boxes.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">=C2=A0</span></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica">2: We have =
servers generally available to the public and are concerned<br>
that the QUIC version of a SYN flood can&#39;t be dealt with (despite<br>
evidence to the contrary).</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">Companies a=
nd website owners have to pay for anti-DoS services=C2=A0from the likes of =
Verizon and others BECAUSE servers listen to
 all clients. With pre-authentication, the need to have an anti-DoS service=
 would be greatly reduced because servers would not respond to unauthorized=
 clients.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">And the poi=
nt about information leakage is important, too.</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">Brent</span=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">=C2=A0</span></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica"><br>
I don&#39;t know much about how Cloudflare (my place of employment) =C2=A0d=
eals<br>
with 2 but hopefully some people who do/implementors can speak up<br>
about how much of a problem it is. But 1 is I think very much a<br>
nongoal: middlebox ossification is part of the reason we have QUIC.<br>
<br>
Sincerely,<br>
Watson Ladd</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin-bottom:13.5pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica">Brent Blige=
r</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica">Director-Te=
chnology=C2=A0Verizon SDP=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica"><a href=3D"=
mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.bilger@verizon.com</a></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:18.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin-bottom:13.5pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica">Brent Blige=
r</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica">Director-Te=
chnology=C2=A0Verizon SDP=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica"><a href=3D"=
mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.bilger@verizon.com</a></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0</p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:13.5pt"><span style=3D"font-s=
ize:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a;color:black">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a;color:black">Brent Bliger</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a;color:black">Director-Technology=C2=A0Verizon SDP=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a;color:black"><a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com">brent.bilger@ver=
izon.com</a></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:18.0pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a;color:black">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-family:Helvetic=
a;color:black">=C2=A0</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt">=C2=A0</p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<br>
</p>
</div>


</div></div></span></blockquote></body></html>

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From: brent.bilger@verizon.com
Cc: brent.bilger@verizon.com, Ian Swett <ianswett=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Watson Ladd <watsonbladd@gmail.com>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com>, "brent.bilger=40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org" <brent.bilger=40verizon.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
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To: =?utf-8?B?TWlra2VsIEZhaG7DuGUgSsO4cmdlbnNlbg==?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
Thread-Topic: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
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Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 16:03:48 +0000
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Subject: Re: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
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We are talking about an architecture where you have K load balancers that
routes traffic to N endpoints. It is assumed that the load balancers are
trusted by the the N endpoints. Sometimes the endpoints can coordinate with
the load balancers, but not always (e.g. public cloud computing).

Initially the endpoint is chosen at random (sort of). It must be. If the
client can decide, an attacker can send all traffic to that end point.
After that, obviously traffic should land on the same endpoint throughout
the connection.

Since we are discussing a token for the initial packet, it can pass through
any of the K load balancers and land on any of the N endpoints.

Where should the counter be stored? It must be server side (i.e. either
endpoint or load balancer) in order to validate the token. And of course
also client side.

Aside from problems with clients and servers crashing and persistent
recovery, which is a whole problem on its own, we now have KxN places to
have a counter. This is reduced to N if we decide to store at the end
points, or K if the load balancers take on the job. Let's just say K.

How do you increment the counter or check it? You add a separate service
that all K load balancers talk to. This is either a single point of
failure, and a very slow bottleneck with network latency, or it is a
distributed service like etcd.

Both of these coordination approaches are used for load balancers, but that
happens at an entirely different time scale. If for super high speed
distributed coordination servers, you typically cannot go faster than a
single machine. They also typically need to have persistent crash safe
storage.

This is way way too slow for high volume traffic. Especially under attack.

Now, even if it was fast enough it would be vulnerable to single point of
failure and getting out of sync.

A lot of cryptography and security these days work really hard to avoid
having such shared state. Public key cryptography is a prominent example,
and we could use that to authenticate tokens - only - it is also too slow -
in fact - slow crypto is largely what we are trying to avoid with the token
in the first place.

What is not too slow is a pre-shared secret with a timestamp. It is on the
other hand not strong enough for proper authentication, but it is good
enough for our purposes. Each of the KxN locations can independently check
the token with low overhead.


On 23 July 2019 at 18.03.51, brent.bilger@verizon.com (
brent.bilger@verizon.com) wrote:

Again, I=E2=80=99m not sure it matters at this point because we=E2=80=99re =
not recommending
a method for creating a pre-authentication token, but I am curious about
counter vs. timer. In counter-based HOTP (hashed one time password), the
counter value is sent as part of the token. Since the client is storing the
secret shared key, presumably, it would keep the counter is the same
general location in long term memory. Since the counter changes every time,
the OTP changes every time. What is it about the above that make it
difficult to distribute in an enterprise environment?

Brent

On Jul 23, 2019, at 8:30 AM, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgensen <mikkelfj@gm=
ail.com>
wrote:

I believe that we largely agree, but a counter is not very good from a
distributed perspective. I=E2=80=99d consider it a non-starter.

I do have a proposal for QUIC v2 about preventing replay attacks on 0-RTT
that involves something similar - but 0-RTT is sort of guaranteed to land
on the same server based on routing on said token.

An initial packet is guaranteed to not land on the same server because
otherwise an attacker could target that single server.

Placing the counter in the load balancer infrastructure also isn=E2=80=99t =
good
because it requires coordination which is a vary scarce resource in high
volume areas.

But a counter isn=E2=80=99t necessary as you can just share some comparativ=
ely weak
keys and hash a timestamp. It will be good enough, and otherwise you can
use stronger 0-RTT tokens for return visits. The keys can be rotated
periodically and shared to an extend, and so forth.

On 23 July 2019 at 17.19.06, brent.bilger@verizon.com (
brent.bilger@verizon.com) wrote:

As noted on a different posting, Single Packet Authorization is based on
RFC 4226 which has both a counter and a time based approach. Personally, I
prefer a counter.

But again, this is all irrelevant because I=E2=80=99m not suggesting any on=
e
pre-authentication. I=E2=80=99m just using an example to show how it can st=
op
multiple types of attacks.





Brent Bliger
Director-Technology Verizon SDP
brent.bilger@verizon.com

--000000000000961827058e5bb561
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">We are talking about=
 an architecture where you have K load balancers that routes traffic to N e=
ndpoints. It is assumed that the load balancers are trusted by the the N en=
dpoints. Sometimes the endpoints can coordinate with the load balancers, bu=
t not always (e.g. public cloud computing).</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfon=
t" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0=
);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin=
:0px;line-height:auto">Initially the endpoint is chosen at random (sort of)=
. It must be. If the client can decide, an attacker can send all traffic to=
 that end point. After that, obviously traffic should land on the same endp=
oint throughout the connection.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"=
font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px=
;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-fam=
ily:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-he=
ight:auto">Since we are discussing a token for the initial packet, it can p=
ass through any of the K load balancers and land on any of the N endpoints.=
</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;fon=
t-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">Where should the cou=
nter be stored? It must be server side (i.e. either endpoint or load balanc=
er) in order to validate the token. And of course also client side.</div><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D=
"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;colo=
r:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">Aside from problems with cli=
ents and servers crashing and persistent recovery, which is a whole problem=
 on its own, we now have KxN places to have a counter. This is reduced to N=
 if we decide to store at the end points, or K if the load balancers take o=
n the job. Let&#39;s just say K.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D=
"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0p=
x;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-fa=
mily:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-h=
eight:auto">How do you increment the counter or check it? You add a separat=
e service that all K load balancers talk to. This is either a single point =
of failure, and a very slow bottleneck with network latency, or it is a dis=
tributed service like etcd.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font=
-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;lin=
e-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:=
Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height=
:auto">Both of these coordination approaches are used for load balancers, b=
ut that happens at an entirely different time scale. If for super high spee=
d distributed coordination servers, you typically cannot go faster than a s=
ingle machine. They also typically need to have persistent crash safe stora=
ge.</div><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;=
font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div=
><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-siz=
e:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">This is way way t=
oo slow for high volume traffic. Especially under attack.</div><div id=3D"b=
loop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:=
rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_cus=
tomfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0=
,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">Now, even if it was fast enough it wou=
ld be vulnerable to single point of failure and getting out of sync.</div><=
div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:=
13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=
=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;c=
olor:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">A lot of cryptography and=
 security these days work really hard to avoid having such shared state. Pu=
blic key cryptography is a prominent example, and we could use that to auth=
enticate tokens - only - it is also too slow - in fact - slow crypto is lar=
gely what we are trying to avoid with the token in the first place.</div><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D=
"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;colo=
r:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">What is not too slow is a pr=
e-shared secret with a timestamp. It is on the other hand not strong enough=
 for proper authentication, but it is good enough for our purposes. Each of=
 the KxN locations can independently check the token with low overhead.</di=
v><div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-si=
ze:13px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div> <br><=
p class=3D"airmail_on">On 23 July 2019 at 18.03.51, <a href=3D"mailto:brent=
.bilger@verizon.com">brent.bilger@verizon.com</a> (<a href=3D"mailto:brent.=
bilger@verizon.com">brent.bilger@verizon.com</a>) wrote:</p> <blockquote ty=
pe=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq"><span><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;lin=
e-break:after-white-space" class=3D""><div></div><div>



<title></title>


Again, I=E2=80=99m not sure it matters at this point because we=E2=80=99re =
not
recommending a method for creating a pre-authentication token, but
I am curious about counter vs. timer. In counter-based HOTP (hashed
one time password), the counter value is sent as part of the token.
Since the client is storing the secret shared key, presumably, it
would keep the counter is the same general location in long term
memory. Since the counter changes every time, the OTP changes every
time. What is it about the above that make it difficult to
distribute in an enterprise environment?
<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>
<div class=3D"">Brent<br class=3D"">
<div><br class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">On Jul 23, 2019, at 8:30 AM, Mikkel Fahn=C3=B8e J=C3=B8rgen=
sen
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mikkelfj@gmail.com" class=3D"">mikkelfj@gmail.com</a>=
&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class=3D"">
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-=
spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-s=
pace:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;margin:0px" class=3D"">I =
believe that we largely agree, but a counter is not very
good from a distributed perspective. I=E2=80=99d consider it a
non-starter.</div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-=
spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-s=
pace:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;margin:0px" class=3D""><b=
r class=3D""></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-=
spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-s=
pace:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;margin:0px" class=3D"">I =
do have a proposal for QUIC v2 about preventing replay
attacks on 0-RTT that involves something similar - but 0-RTT is
sort of guaranteed to land on the same server based on routing on
said token.</div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-=
spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-s=
pace:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;margin:0px" class=3D""><b=
r class=3D""></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-=
spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-s=
pace:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;margin:0px" class=3D"">An=
 initial packet is guaranteed to not land on the same
server because otherwise an attacker could target that single
server.</div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-=
spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-s=
pace:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;margin:0px" class=3D""><b=
r class=3D""></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-=
spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-s=
pace:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;margin:0px" class=3D"">Pl=
acing the counter in the load balancer infrastructure
also isn=E2=80=99t good because it requires coordination which is a vary
scarce resource in high volume areas.</div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-=
spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-s=
pace:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;margin:0px" class=3D""><b=
r class=3D""></div>
<div id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size=
:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-=
spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-s=
pace:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;margin:0px" class=3D"">Bu=
t a counter isn=E2=80=99t necessary as you can just share some
comparatively weak keys and hash a timestamp. It will be good
enough, and otherwise you can use stronger 0-RTT tokens for return
visits. The keys can be rotated periodically and shared to an
extend, and so forth.</div>
<br style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;f=
ont-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align=
:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:=
0px;text-decoration:none" class=3D"">
<p class=3D"airmail_on" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px=
;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spaci=
ng:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:=
normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
On 23 July 2019 at 17.19.06,<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</s=
pan><a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com" class=3D"">brent.bilger@ver=
izon.com</a><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>(<a href=3D"=
mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com" class=3D"">brent.bilger@verizon.com</a>) w=
rote:</p>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica=
,Arial;font-size:13px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weigh=
t:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transf=
orm:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"font-family:&quot;helvetica Neue&quot;,helvetica;font-size:14=
px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spa=
cing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-spac=
e:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none" class=3D""><span class=3D""=
>As noted on a different posting, Single
Packet Authorization is based on RFC 4226 which has both a counter
and a time based approach. Personally, I prefer a
counter.</span></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:&quot;helvetica Neue&quot;,helvetica;font-size:14=
px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spa=
cing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-spac=
e:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none" class=3D""><span class=3D""=
><br class=3D""></span></div>
<div style=3D"font-family:&quot;helvetica Neue&quot;,helvetica;font-size:14=
px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spa=
cing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-spac=
e:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none" class=3D""><span class=3D""=
>But again, this is all irrelevant because
I=E2=80=99m not suggesting any one pre-authentication. I=E2=80=99m just usi=
ng an
example to show how it can stop multiple types of
attacks.</span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size=
:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-=
spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-s=
pace:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;word-wrap:break-word;line=
-break:after-white-space" class=3D"">
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-spac=
e" class=3D"">
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:norm=
al;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;=
word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
<br class=3D""></div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:norm=
al;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;=
word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<br class=3D""></div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:norm=
al;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;=
word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
Brent Bliger</div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:norm=
al;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;=
word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
Director-Technology=C2=A0Verizon SDP=C2=A0<br class=3D""></div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-variant-caps:normal;letter-spacing:norm=
al;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;=
word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">
<a href=3D"mailto:brent.bilger@verizon.com" class=3D"">brent.bilger@verizon=
.com</a></div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Helvetica;font-size:24px;font-st=
yle:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:norma=
l;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;w=
ord-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></div>
</div>
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0);font-fami=
ly:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font=
-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-=
transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none">

<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></div>
<br class=3D""></div>


</div></div></span></blockquote></body></html>

--000000000000961827058e5bb561--


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To: =?utf-8?B?TWlra2VsIEZhaG7DuGUgSsO4cmdlbnNlbg==?= <mikkelfj@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
Thread-Topic: [E] DoS-ing QUIC servers is too easy
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Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 18:39:35 +0000
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From: David Schinazi <dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 17:35:06 -0400
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Subject: Re: WebTransport Side Meeting (Tuesday, 15:20)
To: Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv@google.com>
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Thanks to everyone who came to the side-meeting today. We had 27 people in
the room and strong interest in the topic.

In terms of next steps: this work will proceed in parallel at the W3C, and
we will seek to open an IETF mailing list to discuss WebTransport (we'll
report the list here when it exists).

Thanks in particular to Steve Anton for recording the following minutes:

Roberto Peon: best to share connection even for data with different
congestion controllers
Seth Blank: many games open many TCP connections for reliable data, in
addition to UDP
Seth: others will layer a reliable layer on top of UDP
Jana Iyengar: having all types of data under the same cc is very useful,
but needs a way to prioritize traffic. Another issue with existing
approaches: some connections (if multiple TCP/UDP/etc) may fail which is
awkward (e.g., TCP may work but UDP not).
Is connection setup latency important?
Yes, RTC use cases find call setup very important
QUIC should help a lot here
Use case: for legacy apps, map UDP sockets to QUIC datagrams, TCP sockets
to QUIC streams
Brian Trammell: but these legacy apps want to interop with things that
speak TCP and UDP, not QUIC
Solution: host a shim proxy
Roberto: a L7 proxy wants very low level APIs to forward data avoid
compounding delays.
Partial reliability models
Jana: agree that datagrams are too low level for from-scratch applications.
SCTP made this mistake. What is the API for sending application-sized
messages? (streams?)
Roberto: QUIC is missing the concept of =E2=80=9Csession=E2=80=9D (bundling=
 streams
together to the same endpoint). Use case: L7 proxies that route at the
session level.
Roberto: protocol needs to know about framing and ordering (for flow
control)
Martin Thomson: don=E2=80=99t invent partial reliability here, or else it c=
ould be
the hill to die on.
Victor Vasiliev: want to just expose APIs for QUIC primitives that are
already defined (imagine streams are a useful abstraction, datagrams are
the most minimal abstraction)
Target application: real-time client-server streaming
Not going to solve this in WebTransport, instead offer primitives to build
on.
TAPS
Brian: Underlying transport depends on application and deployment. Will
likely need a transport selection algorithm.
Victor: want to do transport selection as a higher level layer, not in
WebTransport.
Victor: some of the data API will use Web primitives (like WHATWG Streams).
Don=E2=80=99t want to over abstract.
Brian: take a close look at the TAPS architecture document.
QuicTransport vs. Http3Transport
Roberto: things we implement in HTTP: redirection, shut down state,
caching, multiplexing. These are very valuable, let=E2=80=99s not forget.
Important to ship an API which performs and is what people want to use.
Eric Kinnear: HTTP has a few downsides, e.g. bidirectionality. There=E2=80=
=99s a
use case for just a QUIC transport.
Peter Thatcher: HTTP doesn=E2=80=99t make sense for P2P.
Martin: How does this spec handle fallback if e.g. QUIC can=E2=80=99t conne=
ct?
There should be a transparent fallback.
Victor: WebSocket fallback (can even implement as a polyfill).
Jana: may need to break down spec into pieces before bringing it into the
IETF.
Victor: wire format changes are clearly IETF. API design is clearly W3C.
Framework definition could go either way, not sure which venue right now.
Martin: kind of weird but seems to work to have the same people wear IETF
and W3C hats
David Schinazi: seems to be interest: in terms of process, should a new
IETF mailing list be formed?
Martin: get an AD to form a mailing list. IETF should do work for W3C, not
the other way around.
Roberto: implementations of WebTransport could be useful without it
necessarily being a Web API.
Mark Nottingham/Martin/Peter: W3C work is in WICG right now. Needs to be a
working group before IETF would form a working group.
Can still make a mailing list, have a BOF before the working group was
formed.
Jana: Other way of doing it: W3C driving requirements for IETF protocol,
creates API.
Roberto: some use cases for L7 proxies even if this doesn=E2=80=99t end up =
in the
browser.
Jana: Is the RTCDataChannel a first application for WebTransport?
Harald Alvestrand: desire in WebRTC to redesign the RTCDataChannel API.
Roberto: a major application that wants this is low latency broadcast video=
.
Bandwidth prediction APIs
Roberto: value for this, very complicated though. Today the server which
has lower level control can send the browser cc info.
Harald: started with receiver cc, went back to sender cc later
Brian: should take this out of scope for a BOF
Roberto: defer this or else it will fail (e.g., HTTP2 started without QUIC
even though they knew QUIC was needed).
Jana: don=E2=80=99t bring bandwidth prediction up or else it will be front =
and
center and kill the effort

On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 4:36 PM Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv=3D
40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

> Hello everyone,
>
> Today, at the dispatch working group meeting (18:10), I am going to
> present WebTransport. WebTransport is a protocol framework that allows
> multiplexed and datagram-oriented transport protocols to be used by the w=
eb
> applications (think =E2=80=9CWebSocket for UDP=E2=80=9D).
>
> Since it=E2=80=99s quite likely we will run out of time during dispatch, =
I
> scheduled a side-meeting to discuss this in more depth. Below are the sid=
e
> meeting details.
>
> *Time:* Tuesday, 15:20 ~ 16:50
> *Place:* Room C2 (21st floor)
> *Organizers:* Victor Vasiliev, David Schinazi
> *Agenda:*
>
>    1. A more in-depth overview of WebTransport.
>    2. Discussion of the overall design and the use cases.
>    3. As time permits, some of the major outstanding design issues in Web
>    transport, e.g.:
>       - What fallback protocol to use?
>       - How to multiplex streams and datagrams within a single connection=
?
>       - Can we let web applications do their own congestion control?
>       - Should WebTransport sessions have URLs associated with them?
>
> As usual, here are some helpful links:
>
>    - WebTransport overview:
>    https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vvv-webtransport-overview-00
>    - QuicTransport:
>    https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vvv-webtransport-quic-00
>    - Http3Transport:
>    https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vvv-webtransport-http3-00
>    - Web API Spec draft: https://wicg.github.io/web-transport/
>    - Discussion on use cases:
>    https://discourse.wicg.io/t/webtransport-proposal/3508
>
> Cheers,
>   Victor.
>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Thanks to everyone who came to the side-meeting today. We =
had 27 people in the room and strong interest in the topic.<div><br></div><=
div>In terms of next steps: this work will proceed in parallel at the W3C, =
and we will seek to open an IETF mailing list to discuss WebTransport (we&#=
39;ll report the list here when it exists).<br><div><br></div><div>Thanks i=
n particular to Steve Anton for recording the following minutes:</div><div>=
<br>Roberto Peon: best to share connection even for data with different con=
gestion controllers<br>Seth Blank: many games open many TCP connections for=
 reliable data, in addition to UDP<br>Seth: others will layer a reliable la=
yer on top of UDP<br>Jana Iyengar: having all types of data under the same =
cc is very useful, but needs a way to prioritize traffic. Another issue wit=
h existing approaches: some connections (if multiple TCP/UDP/etc) may fail =
which is awkward (e.g., TCP may work but UDP not).<br>Is connection setup l=
atency important?<br>Yes, RTC use cases find call setup very important<br>Q=
UIC should help a lot here<br>Use case: for legacy apps, map UDP sockets to=
 QUIC datagrams, TCP sockets to QUIC streams<br>Brian Trammell: but these l=
egacy apps want to interop with things that speak TCP and UDP, not QUIC<br>=
Solution: host a shim proxy<br>Roberto: a L7 proxy wants very low level API=
s to forward data avoid compounding delays.<br>Partial reliability models<b=
r>Jana: agree that datagrams are too low level for from-scratch application=
s. SCTP made this mistake. What is the API for sending application-sized me=
ssages? (streams?)<br>Roberto: QUIC is missing the concept of =E2=80=9Csess=
ion=E2=80=9D (bundling streams together to the same endpoint). Use case: L7=
 proxies that route at the session level.<br>Roberto: protocol needs to kno=
w about framing and ordering (for flow control)<br>Martin Thomson: don=E2=
=80=99t invent partial reliability here, or else it could be the hill to di=
e on.<br>Victor Vasiliev: want to just expose APIs for QUIC primitives that=
 are already defined (imagine streams are a useful abstraction, datagrams a=
re the most minimal abstraction)<br>Target application: real-time client-se=
rver streaming<br>Not going to solve this in WebTransport, instead offer pr=
imitives to build on.<br>TAPS<br>Brian: Underlying transport depends on app=
lication and deployment. Will likely need a transport selection algorithm.<=
br>Victor: want to do transport selection as a higher level layer, not in W=
ebTransport.<br>Victor: some of the data API will use Web primitives (like =
WHATWG Streams). Don=E2=80=99t want to over abstract.<br>Brian: take a clos=
e look at the TAPS architecture document.<br>QuicTransport vs. Http3Transpo=
rt<br>Roberto: things we implement in HTTP: redirection, shut down state, c=
aching, multiplexing. These are very valuable, let=E2=80=99s not forget.<br=
>Important to ship an API which performs and is what people want to use.<br=
>Eric Kinnear: HTTP has a few downsides, e.g. bidirectionality. There=E2=80=
=99s a use case for just a QUIC transport.<br>Peter Thatcher: HTTP doesn=E2=
=80=99t make sense for P2P.<br>Martin: How does this spec handle fallback i=
f e.g. QUIC can=E2=80=99t connect? There should be a transparent fallback.<=
br>Victor: WebSocket fallback (can even implement as a polyfill).<br>Jana: =
may need to break down spec into pieces before bringing it into the IETF.<b=
r>Victor: wire format changes are clearly IETF. API design is clearly W3C. =
Framework definition could go either way, not sure which venue right now.<b=
r>Martin: kind of weird but seems to work to have the same people wear IETF=
 and W3C hats<br>David Schinazi: seems to be interest: in terms of process,=
 should a new IETF mailing list be formed?<br>Martin: get an AD to form a m=
ailing list. IETF should do work for W3C, not the other way around.<br>Robe=
rto: implementations of WebTransport could be useful without it necessarily=
 being a Web API.<br>Mark Nottingham/Martin/Peter: W3C work is in WICG righ=
t now. Needs to be a working group before IETF would form a working group.<=
br>Can still make a mailing list, have a BOF before the working group was f=
ormed.<br>Jana: Other way of doing it: W3C driving requirements for IETF pr=
otocol, creates API.<br>Roberto: some use cases for L7 proxies even if this=
 doesn=E2=80=99t end up in the browser.<br>Jana: Is the RTCDataChannel a fi=
rst application for WebTransport?<br>Harald Alvestrand: desire in WebRTC to=
 redesign the RTCDataChannel API.<br>Roberto: a major application that want=
s this is low latency broadcast video.<br>Bandwidth prediction APIs<br>Robe=
rto: value for this, very complicated though. Today the server which has lo=
wer level control can send the browser cc info.<br>Harald: started with rec=
eiver cc, went back to sender cc later<br>Brian: should take this out of sc=
ope for a BOF<br>Roberto: defer this or else it will fail (e.g., HTTP2 star=
ted without QUIC even though they knew QUIC was needed).<br>Jana: don=E2=80=
=99t bring bandwidth prediction up or else it will be front and center and =
kill the effort<br></div></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div di=
r=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Jul 22, 2019 at 4:36 PM Victor Vasil=
iev &lt;vasilvv=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org">40google.c=
om@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);p=
adding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hello everyone,<br><br>Today, at the disp=
atch working group meeting (18:10), I am going to present WebTransport. Web=
Transport is a protocol framework that allows multiplexed and datagram-orie=
nted transport protocols to be used by the web applications (think =E2=80=
=9CWebSocket for UDP=E2=80=9D).<br><br>Since it=E2=80=99s quite likely we w=
ill run out of time during dispatch, I scheduled a side-meeting to discuss =
this in more depth. Below are the side meeting details.<br><br><b>Time:</b>=
 Tuesday, 15:20 ~ 16:50<br><b>Place:</b> Room C2 (21st floor)<br><b>Organiz=
ers:</b> Victor Vasiliev, David Schinazi<br><b>Agenda:</b><br><ol><li>A mor=
e in-depth overview of WebTransport.</li><li>Discussion of the overall desi=
gn and the use cases.</li><li>As time permits, some of the major outstandin=
g design issues in Web transport, e.g.:</li><ul><li>What fallback protocol =
to use?</li><li>How to multiplex streams and datagrams within a single conn=
ection?</li><li>Can we let web applications do their own congestion control=
?</li><li>Should WebTransport sessions have URLs associated with them?</li>=
</ul></ol>As usual, here are some helpful links:<br><ul><li>WebTransport ov=
erview: <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vvv-webtransport-overv=
iew-00" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vvv-webtranspor=
t-overview-00</a></li><li>QuicTransport: <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/=
html/draft-vvv-webtransport-quic-00" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.o=
rg/html/draft-vvv-webtransport-quic-00</a></li><li>Http3Transport: <a href=
=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vvv-webtransport-http3-00" target=3D"=
_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vvv-webtransport-http3-00</a></li=
><li>Web API Spec draft: <a href=3D"https://wicg.github.io/web-transport/" =
target=3D"_blank">https://wicg.github.io/web-transport/</a></li><li>Discuss=
ion on use cases: <a href=3D"https://discourse.wicg.io/t/webtransport-propo=
sal/3508" target=3D"_blank">https://discourse.wicg.io/t/webtransport-propos=
al/3508</a></li></ul>Cheers,<br>=C2=A0 Victor.<br></div>
</blockquote></div>

--00000000000003b8ff058e5ff839--


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From: Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 13:14:55 -0400
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Subject: Re: HTTP(3) priorities
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Hi!

Attached are the slides that Lucas and I presented during the side meeting.

Thank you all for the feedback.

2019=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=889=E6=97=A5(=E7=81=AB) 21:00 Ian Swett <ianswett=3D40=
google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>:
>
> There has been quite a bit of discussion of HTTP priorities lately on bot=
h the QUIC and HTTP mailing lists, with more to follow.  The plan for IETF =
in Montreal is as follows:
>
> Monday: Overview of priorities for 15 minutes in HTTP, with 15 minutes di=
scussion.
> Wednesday: A side meeting will be held from 8:30-9:45am in Van Horne.
> Thursday: I'll summarise the side meeting in Wednesday's HTTP session.
>
> Thanks, Ian



--=20
Kazuho Oku

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	charset=utf-8

We had a productive lunch meeting for Datagram today after the QUIC =
session (with Lars, ekr, Martin Thomson, Lucas Pardue, David Schinazi, =
Eric Kinnear, Nick Banks, and Tommy Pauly in attendance).

The group agreed that the relevant open issue was the use of flow IDs in =
the transport. The decision we came to collectively was to:

- Remove Flow Identifiers from the QUIC DATAGRAM (transport) draft. =
Specify that each application is responsible for defining its datagram =
flow management scheme.
- David will be creating a new document to define how HTTP/3 marks and =
uses DATAGRAM frames.

I have opened a Pull Request to remove flow IDs from the draft here: =
https://github.com/tfpauly/draft-pauly-quic-datagram/pull/11

While this may get merged, we don't plan to submit a new version of the =
draft until the new HTTP/3 draft has been written.

Best,
Tommy

> On Jul 8, 2019, at 11:20 AM, Tommy Pauly =
<tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>=20
> Hello all,
>=20
> We=E2=80=99ve updated the QUIC DATAGRAM draft to incorporate some of =
the feedback we received at the side meeting in Prague. Notably, it =
clarifies:
>=20
> - Guidance around datagram acknowledgements
> - Datagrams do not participate in any flow control
> - Datagrams do participate in congestion control
>=20
> The remaining area of open discussion is around the newly re-named =
optional =E2=80=9Cflow identifiers=E2=80=9D. The primary argument for =
removing these is that applications can add identifiers onto datagrams =
themselves, and the transport should not transmit a field that it does =
not do anything with. We did add some text clarifying that these =
identifiers are essentially like UDP ports for demultiplexing, and =
pointed out some *minimal* things the transport can do to help batch =
transmission of datagrams in the same flow and promote fate-sharing =
within a flow. There=E2=80=99s been some discussion on Slack of other =
approaches that would make these flow IDs more first-class =
citizens=E2=80=94adding reliable signaling for opening and closing =
flows, as many applications would also generally need some similar sort =
of control channel=E2=80=94but these seem a bit heavy-weight. Either =
way, this is an area where discussion is welcome and I expect the =
document to change.
>=20
> Best,
> Tommy
>=20
>> Begin forwarded message:
>>=20
>> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org>
>> Subject: New Version Notification for =
draft-pauly-quic-datagram-03.txt
>> Date: July 6, 2019 at 6:30:01 PM PDT
>> To: Eric Kinnear <ekinnear@apple.com <mailto:ekinnear@apple.com>>, =
David Schinazi <dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com =
<mailto:dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com>>, Tommy Pauly <tpauly@apple.com =
<mailto:tpauly@apple.com>>
>>=20
>>=20
>> A new version of I-D, draft-pauly-quic-datagram-03.txt
>> has been successfully submitted by Tommy Pauly and posted to the
>> IETF repository.
>>=20
>> Name:		draft-pauly-quic-datagram
>> Revision:	03
>> Title:		An Unreliable Datagram Extension to QUIC
>> Document date:	2019-07-06
>> Group:		Individual Submission
>> Pages:		8
>> URL:            =
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-pauly-quic-datagram-03.txt =
<https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-pauly-quic-datagram-03.txt>
>> Status:         =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-pauly-quic-datagram/ =
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-pauly-quic-datagram/>
>> Htmlized:       =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pauly-quic-datagram-03 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pauly-quic-datagram-03>
>> Htmlized:       =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-pauly-quic-datagram =
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-pauly-quic-datagram>
>> Diff:           =
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-pauly-quic-datagram-03 =
<https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-pauly-quic-datagram-03>
>>=20
>> Abstract:
>>   This document defines an extension to the QUIC transport protocol =
to
>>   add support for sending and receiving unreliable datagrams over a
>>   QUIC connection.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of =
submission
>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org =
<http://tools.ietf.org/>.
>>=20
>> The IETF Secretariat
>>=20
>=20


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">We =
had a productive lunch meeting for Datagram today after the QUIC session =
(with Lars, ekr, Martin Thomson, Lucas Pardue, David Schinazi, Eric =
Kinnear, Nick Banks, and Tommy Pauly in attendance).<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">The group agreed that =
the relevant open issue was the use of flow IDs in the transport. The =
decision we came to collectively was to:</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">- Remove Flow Identifiers from the QUIC =
DATAGRAM (transport) draft. Specify that each application is responsible =
for defining its datagram flow management scheme.</div><div class=3D"">- =
David will be creating a new document to define how HTTP/3 marks and =
uses&nbsp;DATAGRAM&nbsp;frames.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I have opened a Pull Request to remove =
flow IDs from the draft here:&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://github.com/tfpauly/draft-pauly-quic-datagram/pull/11" =
class=3D"">https://github.com/tfpauly/draft-pauly-quic-datagram/pull/11</a=
></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">While this =
may get merged, we don't plan to submit a new version of the draft until =
the new HTTP/3 draft has been written.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Best,</div><div =
class=3D"">Tommy</div><div class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jul 8, 2019, at 11:20 AM, =
Tommy Pauly &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org" =
class=3D"">tpauly=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Hello all,<div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">We=E2=80=99ve updated =
the QUIC DATAGRAM draft to incorporate some of the feedback we received =
at the side meeting in Prague. Notably, it clarifies:</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">- Guidance around =
datagram acknowledgements</div><div class=3D"">- Datagrams do not =
participate in any flow control</div><div class=3D"">- Datagrams do =
participate in congestion control</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The remaining area of open discussion =
is around the newly re-named optional =E2=80=9Cflow identifiers=E2=80=9D. =
The primary argument for removing these is that applications can add =
identifiers onto datagrams themselves, and the transport should not =
transmit a field that it does not do anything with. We did add some text =
clarifying that these identifiers are essentially like UDP ports for =
demultiplexing, and pointed out some *minimal* things the transport can =
do to help batch transmission of datagrams in the same flow and promote =
fate-sharing within a flow. There=E2=80=99s been some discussion on =
Slack of other approaches that would make these flow IDs more =
first-class citizens=E2=80=94adding reliable signaling for opening and =
closing flows, as many applications would also generally need some =
similar sort of control channel=E2=80=94but these seem a bit =
heavy-weight. Either way, this is an area where discussion is welcome =
and I expect the document to change.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Best,</div><div =
class=3D"">Tommy</div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">Begin =
forwarded message:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
-webkit-system-font, &quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;, Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">From: </b></span><span style=3D"font-family: =
-webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a=
 href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
-webkit-system-font, &quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;, Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject: </b></span><span style=3D"font-family: =
-webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b=
 class=3D"">New Version Notification for =
draft-pauly-quic-datagram-03.txt</b><br class=3D""></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
-webkit-system-font, &quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;, Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Date: </b></span><span style=3D"font-family: =
-webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">July 6, 2019 at 6:30:01 PM PDT<br class=3D""></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
-webkit-system-font, &quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;, Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">To: </b></span><span style=3D"font-family: =
-webkit-system-font, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Eric Kinnear &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ekinnear@apple.com" =
class=3D"">ekinnear@apple.com</a>&gt;, David Schinazi &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;, Tommy Pauly &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:tpauly@apple.com" class=3D"">tpauly@apple.com</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""></span></div><br class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br=
 class=3D"">A new version of I-D, draft-pauly-quic-datagram-03.txt<br =
class=3D"">has been successfully submitted by Tommy Pauly and posted to =
the<br class=3D"">IETF repository.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Name:<span=
 class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>draft-pauly-quic-datagram<br class=3D"">Revision:<span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>03<br =
class=3D"">Title:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">=
	</span><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>An Unreliable Datagram Extension to QUIC<br class=3D"">Document =
date:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>2019-07-06<br class=3D"">Group:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>Individual Submission<br =
class=3D"">Pages:<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">=
	</span><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>8<br class=3D"">URL: =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-pauly-quic-datagram-03.=
txt" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-pauly-quic-datagram-=
03.txt</a><br class=3D"">Status: =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-pauly-quic-datagram/" =
class=3D"">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-pauly-quic-datagram/</a>=
<br class=3D"">Htmlized: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pauly-quic-datagram-03" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pauly-quic-datagram-03</a><br=
 class=3D"">Htmlized: &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-pauly-quic-datagram" =
class=3D"">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-pauly-quic-datagram=
</a><br class=3D"">Diff: =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-pauly-quic-datagram-03" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-pauly-quic-datagram-0=
3</a><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Abstract:<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;This document defines an extension to the QUIC transport =
protocol to<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;add support for sending and =
receiving unreliable datagrams over a<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;QUIC =
connection.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br=
 class=3D"">Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the =
time of submission<br class=3D"">until the htmlized version and diff are =
available at <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/" =
class=3D"">tools.ietf.org</a>.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">The IETF =
Secretariat<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_F2DFFA76-D146-42D6-8922-BC2DE497F9F2--


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From: Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 2019 09:48:21 -0400
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Subject: Re: [WARNING: ATTACHMENT(S) MAY CONTAIN MALWARE]Re: HTTP(3) priorities
To: "Oliver, Wesley, Vodacom South Africa (External)" <Wesley.Oliver@vcontractor.co.za>
Cc: Ian Swett <ianswett=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, HTTP Working Group <ietf-http-wg@w3.org>
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Hi Oliver,

Thank you for your comments.

Being a server developer, I like the idea of splitting the urgency
groups, but I am not sure if we should bake something that we *might*
want to use into the core design. IIUC, your suggestion is to have a
more fine-grained signaling between the web application and the H2/H3
terminator. Assuming that is the case, these two parties can do an
experiment, by defining a proprietary parameter of the Proxy header
field, do the experiments, then ask for it to become an official
extension.

Now that we are dropping support for priorities in H3, it is
beneficial to have some alternative shipped at an early moment.

Therefore, it is my view that we should first standardize something
minimally viable, based on what the clients and servers already do, at
the same time leaving room for experiments and improvements. While I
agree that having 20*8 urgency levels is possible, it is complex than
just having 8 urgency levels. Broad adoption of the H2 prioritization
scheme happened, even though it was implementable. At least two
large-scale server operators do support it the way spec is written.
But for others, it seemed too complicated. I think we would like to
minimize the chance of repeating that failure.

Regarding your other comments, I am not sure if I am following, but I
do not think that routers or switches would deal with the HTTP-level
priority information. Plaintext H2 is not a thing, and H3 will always
be encrypted. It is also my understanding that sending some packets of
a connection with a different QoS label is a bad idea, because doing
so would have bad impact on loss recovery and congestion control. I
could be wrong (or there might be some solution that I am not aware of
- I'm not a transport persone), though.

2019=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=8825=E6=97=A5(=E6=9C=A8) 2:48 Oliver, Wesley, Vodacom =
South Africa (External)
<Wesley.Oliver@vcontractor.co.za>:
>
> Hi,
>
> The only thing I could suggest is that you make those priority flags incr=
ements of 20,
> So that if there are changes or minor priority preference per website, th=
en
> That in between numbers can be used. If there is any new future priority =
conventions
> Then just add them in the middle of the 20 group splitting the existing g=
roup.
> Maybe make the field 2 bytes, which allows for future expansion, were the=
re are many files, streams
> Which require a new priority order.
>
> Otherwise one needs to build a priority map, over the deps, converting a =
high resolution to low resolution.
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> Wesley Oliver
>
> > On 24 Jul 2019, at 19:14, Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hi!
> >
> > Attached are the slides that Lucas and I presented during the side meet=
ing.
> >
> > Thank you all for the feedback.
> >
> > 2019=E5=B9=B47=E6=9C=889=E6=97=A5(=E7=81=AB) 21:00 Ian Swett <ianswett=
=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>:
> >>
> >> There has been quite a bit of discussion of HTTP priorities lately on =
both the QUIC and HTTP mailing lists, with more to follow.  The plan for IE=
TF in Montreal is as follows:
> >>
> >> Monday: Overview of priorities for 15 minutes in HTTP, with 15 minutes=
 discussion.
> >> Wednesday: A side meeting will be held from 8:30-9:45am in Van Horne.
> >> Thursday: I'll summarise the side meeting in Wednesday's HTTP session.
> >>
> >> Thanks, Ian
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Kazuho Oku
> > <The Priority Header Field.pdf>
>
> This e-mail is classified C2 - Vodacom Restricted - Information to be use=
d inside Vodacom but it may be shared with authorised partners.
>
> "This e-mail is sent on the Terms and Conditions that can be accessed by =
Clicking on this linkhttps://www.vodacom.co.za/vodacom/terms/email-acceptab=
le-user-policy"



--=20
Kazuho Oku


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Issues
------
* quicwg/base-drafts (+6/-6/=F0=9F=92=AC90)
  6 issues created:
  - Non-ACK-eliciting packets never need to be ACKed (by dtikhonov)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2931 =

  - Lift single-packet ClientHello requirement? (by davidben)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2928 =

  - ICID or OCID? (by mikkelfj)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2926 =

  - Remove PRIORITY (by martinthomson)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2924 [-http] [design] =

  - MIn_RTT management (by gorryfair)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2923 =

  - Should server TP encryption be a requirement for the cryptographic hand=
shake? (by chris-wood)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2920 =


  28 issues received 90 new comments:
  - #2844 Client connection IDs are broken (27 by kazuho, marten-seemann, m=
ikkelfj, Ralith, larseggert, DavidSchinazi, martinthomson, igorlord, martin=
duke)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2844 [-transport] [design] =

  - #2924 Remove PRIORITY (11 by RyanAtGoogle, martinthomson, rmarx, LPardu=
e, mikkelfj)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2924 [-http] [design] =

  - #2928 Lift single-packet ClientHello requirement? (9 by janaiyengar, mi=
kkelfj, nibanks, martinthomson, davidben, ianswett)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2928 [-tls] =

  - #2670 Remove ack_delay_exponent TP (7 by janaiyengar, martinthomson, la=
rseggert, huitema, mikkelfj)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2670 [-transport] [design]=
 [proposal-ready] =

  - #2632 H3 GOAWAY should be symmetric and cover bidi and uni streams (4 b=
y martinthomson, LPardue, afrind)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2632 [-http] [design] =

  - #2143 Be more conservative about migration? (4 by erickinnear, gorryfai=
r, mikkelfj)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2143 [-transport] [design] =

  - #2834 Long Header Packets and Routing Connection IDs (3 by igorlord, la=
rseggert, martinduke)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2834 [-transport] [design] =

  - #2496 QUIC Version Ossification (2 by mnot, martinduke)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2496 [-transport] [design] =

  - #2785 Disallow reuse of stateless reset tokens (2 by martinthomson, lar=
seggert)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2785 [-transport] [design] =

  - #2792 Timing side-channel on key updates (2 by larseggert, ekr)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2792 [-tls] [design] =

  - #2920 Should server TP encryption be a requirement for the cryptographi=
c handshake? (2 by DavidSchinazi, martinthomson)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2920 [-transport] [design] =

  - #2593 Persistent congestion interaction with app limited state (1 by si=
yengar)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2593 [-recovery] [editoria=
l] =

  - #2084 Discuss requirement that connection IDs not be correlatable (1 by=
 martinduke)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2084 [-transport] [design] =

  - #2863 unrecoverable loss pattern leads to deadlock (1 by ianswett)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2863 [-transport] [design] =

  - #2931 Non-ACK-eliciting packets never need to be ACKed (1 by mikkelfj)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2931 =

  - #2498 Error Code when SETTINGS exceeds maximum (1 by MikeBishop)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2498 [-http] [design] =

  - #1860 ACK-only feedback loop in recovery instead of transport (1 by ian=
swett)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1860 [-recovery] [editoria=
l] =

  - #2895 Advise bundling a PING or other small ACK eliciting frame with In=
itials (1 by janaiyengar)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2895 [-recovery] [design] =

  - #2387 Write up our security target against on-path attack (1 by larsegg=
ert)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2387 [-transport] [design] =

  - #2656 Discarding connection state at server on unvalidated client (1 by=
 larseggert)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2656 [-transport] [design] =

  - #2789 Use a higher seed RTT for new paths (1 by mnot)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2789 [-recovery] [design] =

  - #2534 ECN text disables ECN too aggressively (1 by janaiyengar)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2534 [-recovery] [-transpo=
rt] [design] =

  - #2923 MIn_RTT management (1 by gorryfair)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2923 =

  - #2163 ECN attacks (1 by gloinul)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2163 [-transport] [editori=
al] =

  - #2170 Embed QUIC version in expansion (1 by larseggert)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2170 [-tls] [design] =

  - #2555 Define idle period for congestion control (1 by mnot)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2555 [-recovery] [design] =

  - #2556 Should kPersistentCongestionThreshold be 2 or 3? (1 by mnot)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2556 [-recovery] [design] =

  - #2685 CC state after a change of path? (1 by janaiyengar)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2685 [-transport] [design] =


  6 issues closed:
  - Should kPersistentCongestionThreshold be 2 or 3? https://github.com/qui=
cwg/base-drafts/issues/2556 [-recovery] [design] =

  - Persistent congestion interaction with app limited state https://github=
.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2593 [-recovery] [editorial] =

  - Clients cannot abandon Initial packets while server can still send init=
ial close https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2541 [-transport] [d=
esign] =

  - Error Code when SETTINGS exceeds maximum https://github.com/quicwg/base=
-drafts/issues/2498 [-http] [design] =

  - Advise bundling a PING or other small ACK eliciting frame with Initials=
 https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2895 [-recovery] [design] =

  - CC state after a change of path? https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/=
issues/2685 [-transport] [design] =




Pull requests
-------------
* quicwg/base-drafts (+8/-4/=F0=9F=92=AC14)
  8 pull requests submitted:
  - Fix typo in transport draft: eliciting (by dtikhonov)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2930 =

  - Minor clarification. Fixes #2084 (by ekr)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2929 =

  - Update draft-ietf-quic-transport.md (by ianswett)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2927 [-transport] =

  - Add initial threat model appendix (by erickinnear)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2925 =

  - Remove PRIORITY (by martinthomson)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2922 [-http] [design] =

  - Confidentiality for server transport parameters (by martinthomson)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2921 [-transport] [design] =

  - MinRTT for the congestion control context (by ianswett)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2919 =

  - Fix language around CC on migration (by janaiyengar)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2918 =


  4 pull requests received 14 new comments:
  - #2922 Remove PRIORITY (11 by kazuho, rmarx, janaiyengar, LPardue, mikke=
lfj)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2922 [-http] [design] =

  - #2893 Remove DoS vector for spoofed connection migration (1 by igorlord)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2893 [-transport] =

  - #2907 Fix Recovery Pseudocode (1 by janaiyengar)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2907 [-recovery] [editorial] =

  - #2925 Add initial threat model appendix (1 by erickinnear)
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2925 =


  4 pull requests merged:
  - Fix typo in transport draft: eliciting
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2930 =

  - PTO should always send an ack-eliciting packet
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2912 [-recovery] =

  - Up to two full-sized datagrams, not packets
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2915 [-recovery] =

  - Clarify resetting congestion control
    https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2917 [-transport] [editorial=
] =



Repositories tracked by this digest:
-----------------------------------
* https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts

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<body>
<h1>Sunday July 28, 2019</h1>


<h2>Issues</h2>

<h3>quicwg/base-drafts (+6/-6/=F0=9F=92=AC90)</h3>
  <p class=3D"new">6 issues created:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#2931 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2931">N=
on-ACK-eliciting packets never need to be ACKed</a> (by dtikhonov) </li>
  =

  <li>#2928 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2928">L=
ift single-packet ClientHello requirement?</a> (by davidben) </li>
  =

  <li>#2926 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2926">I=
CID or OCID?</a> (by mikkelfj) </li>
  =

  <li>#2924 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2924">R=
emove PRIORITY</a> (by martinthomson) <span class=3D"label" style=3D"backgr=
ound-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-http</span> <span class=3D"label" sty=
le=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color: #ffffff">design</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2923 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2923">M=
In_RTT management</a> (by gorryfair) </li>
  =

  <li>#2920 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2920">S=
hould server TP encryption be a requirement for the cryptographic handshake=
?</a> (by chris-wood) </li>
  </ul>

  <p>28 issues received 90 new comments:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#2844 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2844">C=
lient connection IDs are broken</a> (27 by kazuho, marten-seemann, mikkelfj=
, Ralith, larseggert, DavidSchinazi, martinthomson, igorlord, martinduke) <=
span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-t=
ransport</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db; c=
olor: #ffffff">design</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2924 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2924">R=
emove PRIORITY</a> (11 by RyanAtGoogle, martinthomson, rmarx, LPardue, mikk=
elfj) <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000=
000">-http</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db;=
 color: #ffffff">design</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2928 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2928">L=
ift single-packet ClientHello requirement?</a> (9 by janaiyengar, mikkelfj,=
 nibanks, martinthomson, davidben, ianswett) <span class=3D"label" style=3D=
"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-tls</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2670 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2670">R=
emove ack_delay_exponent TP</a> (7 by janaiyengar, martinthomson, larsegger=
t, huitema, mikkelfj) <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbc=
a04; color: #000000">-transport</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"backg=
round-color: #1d76db; color: #ffffff">design</span> <span class=3D"label" s=
tyle=3D"background-color: #c5def5; color: #000000">proposal-ready</span> </=
li>
  =

  <li>#2632 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2632">H=
3 GOAWAY should be symmetric and cover bidi and uni streams</a> (4 by marti=
nthomson, LPardue, afrind) <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color:=
 #fbca04; color: #000000">-http</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"backg=
round-color: #1d76db; color: #ffffff">design</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2143 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2143">B=
e more conservative about migration?</a> (4 by erickinnear, gorryfair, mikk=
elfj) <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000=
000">-transport</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d=
76db; color: #ffffff">design</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2834 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2834">L=
ong Header Packets and Routing Connection IDs</a> (3 by igorlord, larsegger=
t, martinduke) <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; co=
lor: #000000">-transport</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-c=
olor: #1d76db; color: #ffffff">design</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2496 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2496">Q=
UIC Version Ossification</a> (2 by mnot, martinduke) <span class=3D"label" =
style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-transport</span> <span=
 class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color: #ffffff">design=
</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2785 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2785">D=
isallow reuse of stateless reset tokens</a> (2 by martinthomson, larseggert=
) <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000"=
>-transport</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db=
; color: #ffffff">design</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2792 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2792">T=
iming side-channel on key updates</a> (2 by larseggert, ekr) <span class=3D=
"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-tls</span> <sp=
an class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color: #ffffff">desi=
gn</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2920 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2920">S=
hould server TP encryption be a requirement for the cryptographic handshake=
?</a> (2 by DavidSchinazi, martinthomson) <span class=3D"label" style=3D"ba=
ckground-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-transport</span> <span class=3D"l=
abel" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color: #ffffff">design</span> </l=
i>
  =

  <li>#2593 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2593">P=
ersistent congestion interaction with app limited state</a> (1 by siyengar)=
 <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">=
-recovery</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #0e8a16; =
color: #ffffff">editorial</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2084 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2084">D=
iscuss requirement that connection IDs not be correlatable</a> (1 by martin=
duke) <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000=
000">-transport</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d=
76db; color: #ffffff">design</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2863 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2863">u=
nrecoverable loss pattern leads to deadlock</a> (1 by ianswett) <span class=
=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-transport</=
span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color: #fff=
fff">design</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2931 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2931">N=
on-ACK-eliciting packets never need to be ACKed</a> (1 by mikkelfj) </li>
  =

  <li>#2498 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2498">E=
rror Code when SETTINGS exceeds maximum</a> (1 by MikeBishop) <span class=
=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-http</span>=
 <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color: #ffffff">=
design</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#1860 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1860">A=
CK-only feedback loop in recovery instead of transport</a> (1 by ianswett) =
<span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-=
recovery</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #0e8a16; c=
olor: #ffffff">editorial</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2895 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2895">A=
dvise bundling a PING or other small ACK eliciting frame with Initials</a> =
(1 by janaiyengar) <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04=
; color: #000000">-recovery</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"backgroun=
d-color: #1d76db; color: #ffffff">design</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2387 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2387">W=
rite up our security target against on-path attack</a> (1 by larseggert) <s=
pan class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-tr=
ansport</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db; co=
lor: #ffffff">design</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2656 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2656">D=
iscarding connection state at server on unvalidated client</a> (1 by larseg=
gert) <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000=
000">-transport</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d=
76db; color: #ffffff">design</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2789 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2789">U=
se a higher seed RTT for new paths</a> (1 by mnot) <span class=3D"label" st=
yle=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-recovery</span> <span cl=
ass=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color: #ffffff">design</s=
pan> </li>
  =

  <li>#2534 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2534">E=
CN text disables ECN too aggressively</a> (1 by janaiyengar) <span class=3D=
"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-recovery</span=
> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000"=
>-transport</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db=
; color: #ffffff">design</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2923 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2923">M=
In_RTT management</a> (1 by gorryfair) </li>
  =

  <li>#2163 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2163">E=
CN attacks</a> (1 by gloinul) <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-col=
or: #fbca04; color: #000000">-transport</span> <span class=3D"label" style=
=3D"background-color: #0e8a16; color: #ffffff">editorial</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2170 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2170">E=
mbed QUIC version in expansion</a> (1 by larseggert) <span class=3D"label" =
style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-tls</span> <span class=
=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color: #ffffff">design</span=
> </li>
  =

  <li>#2555 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2555">D=
efine idle period for congestion control</a> (1 by mnot) <span class=3D"lab=
el" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-recovery</span> <s=
pan class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color: #ffffff">des=
ign</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2556 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2556">S=
hould kPersistentCongestionThreshold be 2 or 3?</a> (1 by mnot) <span class=
=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-recovery</s=
pan> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color: #ffff=
ff">design</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2685 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2685">C=
C state after a change of path?</a> (1 by janaiyengar) <span class=3D"label=
" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-transport</span> <sp=
an class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color: #ffffff">desi=
gn</span> </li>
  </ul>

  <p>6 issues closed:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#2556 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2556">S=
hould kPersistentCongestionThreshold be 2 or 3?</a> <span class=3D"label" s=
tyle=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-recovery</span> <span c=
lass=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color: #ffffff">design</=
span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2593 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2593">P=
ersistent congestion interaction with app limited state</a> <span class=3D"=
label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-recovery</span>=
 <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #0e8a16; color: #ffffff">=
editorial</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2541 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2541">C=
lients cannot abandon Initial packets while server can still send initial c=
lose</a> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #=
000000">-transport</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: =
#1d76db; color: #ffffff">design</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2498 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2498">E=
rror Code when SETTINGS exceeds maximum</a> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"=
background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-http</span> <span class=3D"labe=
l" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color: #ffffff">design</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2895 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2895">A=
dvise bundling a PING or other small ACK eliciting frame with Initials</a> =
<span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-=
recovery</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db; c=
olor: #ffffff">design</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2685 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2685">C=
C state after a change of path?</a> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"backgrou=
nd-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-transport</span> <span class=3D"label" =
style=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color: #ffffff">design</span> </li>
  </ul>



<h2>Pull requests</h2>
<h3>quicwg/base-drafts (+8/-4/=F0=9F=92=AC14)</h3>
  <p class=3D"new">8 pull requests submitted:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#2930 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2930">Fix=
 typo in transport draft: eliciting</a> (by dtikhonov) </li>
  =

  <li>#2929 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2929">Min=
or clarification. Fixes #2084</a> (by ekr) </li>
  =

  <li>#2927 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2927">Upd=
ate draft-ietf-quic-transport.md</a> (by ianswett) <span class=3D"label" st=
yle=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #">-transport</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2925 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2925">Add=
 initial threat model appendix</a> (by erickinnear) </li>
  =

  <li>#2922 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2922">Rem=
ove PRIORITY</a> (by martinthomson) <span class=3D"label" style=3D"backgrou=
nd-color: #fbca04; color: #">-http</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"ba=
ckground-color: #1d76db; color: #">design</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2921 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2921">Con=
fidentiality for server transport parameters</a> (by martinthomson) <span c=
lass=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #">-transport</sp=
an> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color: #">des=
ign</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2919 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2919">Min=
RTT for the congestion control context</a> (by ianswett) </li>
  =

  <li>#2918 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2918">Fix=
 language around CC on migration</a> (by janaiyengar) </li>
  </ul>

  <p>4 pull requests received 14 new comments:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#2922 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2922">Rem=
ove PRIORITY</a> (11 by kazuho, rmarx, janaiyengar, LPardue, mikkelfj) <spa=
n class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-http=
</span> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #1d76db; color: #f=
fffff">design</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2893 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2893">Rem=
ove DoS vector for spoofed connection migration</a> (1 by igorlord) <span c=
lass=3D"label" style=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-transpo=
rt</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2907 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2907">Fix=
 Recovery Pseudocode</a> (1 by janaiyengar) <span class=3D"label" style=3D"=
background-color: #fbca04; color: #000000">-recovery</span> <span class=3D"=
label" style=3D"background-color: #0e8a16; color: #ffffff">editorial</span>=
 </li>
  =

  <li>#2925 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2925">Add=
 initial threat model appendix</a> (1 by erickinnear) </li>
  </ul>

  <p>4 pull requests merged:</p>
  <ul>
  <li>#2930 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2930">Fix=
 typo in transport draft: eliciting</a> </li>
  =

  <li>#2912 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2912">PTO=
 should always send an ack-eliciting packet</a> <span class=3D"label" style=
=3D"background-color: #fbca04; color: #">-recovery</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2915 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2915">Up =
to two full-sized datagrams, not packets</a> <span class=3D"label" style=3D=
"background-color: #fbca04; color: #">-recovery</span> </li>
  =

  <li>#2917 <a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/2917">Cla=
rify resetting congestion control</a> <span class=3D"label" style=3D"backgr=
ound-color: #fbca04; color: #">-transport</span> <span class=3D"label" styl=
e=3D"background-color: #0e8a16; color: #">editorial</span> </li>
  </ul>


<h2>Repositories tracked by this digest:</h2>
<ul class=3D"repos">
  <li><a href=3D"https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts">https://github.com/=
quicwg/base-drafts</a></li>
  </ul>
</body>
</html>

--===============7206424627899281272==--


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From: "Deval, Manasi" <manasi.deval@intel.com>
To: "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>
Subject: Interop testing of QUIC with other protocols over long haul paths
Thread-Topic: Interop testing of QUIC with other protocols over long haul paths
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Hi All,

Is there any congestion testing done with QUIC and TCP running Cubic / BBR =
sharing the same link? If so, please can you point me to the exeriments?

Thanks,
Manasi



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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi All,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Is there any congestion testing done with QUIC and T=
CP running Cubic / BBR sharing the same link? If so, please can you point m=
e to the exeriments?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Manasi<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
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From: Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>
To: "Oliver, Wesley, Vodacom South Africa (External)" <Wesley.Oliver@vcontractor.co.za>, Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>
CC: Ian Swett <ianswett=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, HTTP Working Group <ietf-http-wg@w3.org>
Subject: RE: [WARNING: ATTACHMENT(S) MAY CONTAIN MALWARE]Re: HTTP(3) priorities
Thread-Topic: [WARNING: ATTACHMENT(S) MAY CONTAIN MALWARE]Re: HTTP(3) priorities
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Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2019 19:32:04 +0000
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From: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
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Subject: DRAFT minutes from IETF105 Montreal
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Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2019 16:46:55 -0400
Cc: Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>
To: IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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... are at:
   https://github.com/quicwg/wg-materials/blob/master/ietf105/minutes.md

As always, please send suggestions and corrections, preferably as Pull =
Requests but also as responses to this e-mail, and thanks to our =
scribes.

Cheers,


--
Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/


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From: Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv@google.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2019 16:58:23 -0400
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Subject: WebTransport Mailing List
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--000000000000bc9794058ed827c0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Hello everyone,

Judging from the in-person discussions in Montreal, there appears to be a
decent amount of interest in the WebTransport work.  Everyone interested is
invited to join our mailing list:

  https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/webtransport

Cheers,
  Victor.

--000000000000bc9794058ed827c0
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hello everyone,</div><div><br></div><div>Judging from=
 the in-person discussions in Montreal, there appears to be a decent amount=
 of interest in the WebTransport work.=C2=A0 Everyone interested is invited=
 to join our mailing list:<br></div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0=C2=A0<a href=
=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/webtransport">https://www.ietf.or=
g/mailman/listinfo/webtransport</a></div><div><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><=
div>=C2=A0 Victor.</div></div>

--000000000000bc9794058ed827c0--


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On Mon, Jul 29, 2019 at 06:47:13AM +0000, Oliver, Wesley, Vodacom South Africa (External) wrote:
> Ideally the payload should be encrypted!

The metadata should be as well.


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From: Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: WebTransport Mailing List
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2019 23:28:57 +0200
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Cc: dispatch@ietf.org, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, HTTP Working Group <ietf-http-wg@w3.org>, hybi@ietf.org, webtransport@ietf.org
To: Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
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Hi Victor,

Sorry if this has been covered, but for those of us out of the room, =
could you provide two or three sentences as to what the mailing list is =
supposed to cover?  Is this more BCP 190 stuff or something more generic =
or just something else?

Thanks,

Eliot

> On 29 Jul 2019, at 22:58, Victor Vasiliev =
<vasilvv=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>=20
> Hello everyone,
>=20
> Judging from the in-person discussions in Montreal, there appears to =
be a decent amount of interest in the WebTransport work.  Everyone =
interested is invited to join our mailing list:
>=20
>   https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/webtransport =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/webtransport>
>=20
> Cheers,
>   Victor.


--Apple-Mail=_9C2CC47E-110E-4838-ABF0-460CE1ACEE5A
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Hi =
Victor,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Sorry if =
this has been covered, but for those of us out of the room, could you =
provide two or three sentences as to what the mailing list is supposed =
to cover? &nbsp;Is this more BCP 190 stuff or something more generic or =
just something else?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Thanks,</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Eliot</div><div class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On 29 Jul 2019, at 22:58, =
Victor Vasiliev &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:vasilvv=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.or=
g" class=3D"">vasilvv=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><div class=3D"">Hello =
everyone,</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Judging from the in-person discussions in Montreal, there =
appears to be a decent amount of interest in the WebTransport =
work.&nbsp; Everyone interested is invited to join our mailing list:<br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/webtransport" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/webtransport</a></div><di=
v class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Cheers,</div><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp; Victor.</div></div>
</div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv@google.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2019 17:32:30 -0400
Message-ID: <CAAZdMaff4y7s=SfajaPxjfqGqnNQ3trcqxO+Xofq2-M35s7-FA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: WebTransport Mailing List
To: Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>
Cc: dispatch@ietf.org, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>,  HTTP Working Group <ietf-http-wg@w3.org>, hybi@ietf.org, webtransport@ietf.org
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Hi Eliot,

WebTransport is roughly "WebSockets, but for unreliable transport",
currently described in
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vvv-webtransport-overview-00 and
https://wicg.github.io/web-transport/.  It's not related to BCP 190
discussion that happened at the other portion of ARTAREA meeting.

Cheers,
  Victor.

On Mon, Jul 29, 2019 at 5:29 PM Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com> wrote:

> Hi Victor,
>
> Sorry if this has been covered, but for those of us out of the room, could
> you provide two or three sentences as to what the mailing list is supposed
> to cover?  Is this more BCP 190 stuff or something more generic or just
> something else?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Eliot
>
> On 29 Jul 2019, at 22:58, Victor Vasiliev <
> vasilvv=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>
> Hello everyone,
>
> Judging from the in-person discussions in Montreal, there appears to be a
> decent amount of interest in the WebTransport work.  Everyone interested is
> invited to join our mailing list:
>
>   https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/webtransport
>
> Cheers,
>   Victor.
>
>
>

--000000000000c49c62058ed8a126
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Eliot,<div><br></div><div>WebTransport is roughly &quot=
;WebSockets, but for unreliable transport&quot;, currently described in=C2=
=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vvv-webtransport-overview-0=
0">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vvv-webtransport-overview-00</a>=C2=A0=
and=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://wicg.github.io/web-transport/">https://wicg.git=
hub.io/web-transport/</a>.=C2=A0 It&#39;s not related to BCP 190 discussion=
 that happened at the other portion of ARTAREA meeting.</div><div><br></div=
><div>Cheers,</div><div>=C2=A0 Victor.</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_q=
uote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Jul 29, 2019 at 5:29 PM=
 Eliot Lear &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lear@cisco.com">lear@cisco.com</a>&gt; wr=
ote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px=
 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=
=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;">Hi Victor,<div><br></div><div>Sorry if this=
 has been covered, but for those of us out of the room, could you provide t=
wo or three sentences as to what the mailing list is supposed to cover?=C2=
=A0 Is this more BCP 190 stuff or something more generic or just something =
else?</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div><br></div><div>Eliot</div>=
<div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On 29 Jul 2019, at 22:58, Vict=
or Vasiliev &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:vasilvv=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">vasilvv=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:</div><=
br class=3D"gmail-m_-8947632560352852245Apple-interchange-newline"><div><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hello everyone,</div><div><br></div><div>Judging from th=
e in-person discussions in Montreal, there appears to be a decent amount of=
 interest in the WebTransport work.=C2=A0 Everyone interested is invited to=
 join our mailing list:<br></div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0=C2=A0<a href=3D=
"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/webtransport" target=3D"_blank">http=
s://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/webtransport</a></div><div><br></div><div=
>Cheers,</div><div>=C2=A0 Victor.</div></div>
</div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></blockquote></div>

--000000000000c49c62058ed8a126--


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Subject: Re: Interop testing of QUIC with other protocols over long haul paths
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To: "Deval, Manasi" <manasi.deval@intel.com>
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Hi,

On 2019-7-29, at 17:18, Deval, Manasi <manasi.deval@intel.com> wrote:
> Is there any congestion testing done with QUIC and TCP running Cubic / =
BBR sharing the same link? If so, please can you point me to the =
exeriments?

Jana and Marten have been working on integrating QUIC stacks into ns3 =
virtual topologies, which can include cross traffic. It's early days =
still, but see https://github.com/marten-seemann/quic-network-simulator

Lars


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From nobody Tue Jul 30 07:38:22 2019
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From: "Deval, Manasi" <manasi.deval@intel.com>
To: Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>
CC: "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: Interop testing of QUIC with other protocols over long haul paths
Thread-Topic: Interop testing of QUIC with other protocols over long haul paths
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Thanks Lars!=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Lars Eggert [mailto:lars@eggert.org]=20
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2019 11:45 PM
To: Deval, Manasi <manasi.deval@intel.com>
Cc: quic@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Interop testing of QUIC with other protocols over long haul pa=
ths

Hi,

On 2019-7-29, at 17:18, Deval, Manasi <manasi.deval@intel.com> wrote:
> Is there any congestion testing done with QUIC and TCP running Cubic / BB=
R sharing the same link? If so, please can you point me to the exeriments?

Jana and Marten have been working on integrating QUIC stacks into ns3 virtu=
al topologies, which can include cross traffic. It's early days still, but =
see https://github.com/marten-seemann/quic-network-simulator

Lars


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Subject: Re: [dispatch] [hybi] WebTransport Mailing List
From: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
In-Reply-To: <4f6894c1-b6ea-46c6-d662-9b2e2f4daf02@it.aoyama.ac.jp>
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 09:49:30 -0400
Cc: Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>, "dispatch@ietf.org" <dispatch@ietf.org>, "webtransport@ietf.org" <webtransport@ietf.org>, "hybi@ietf.org" <hybi@ietf.org>, HTTP Working Group <ietf-http-wg@w3.org>, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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+1.=20

Naming things is hard, but when they're generic and confusable with =
other things, it's worth the pain.


> On 29 Jul 2019, at 11:53 pm, Martin J. D=C3=BCrst =
<duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp> wrote:
>=20
> I think Eliot's question shows that "WebTransport" may greatly benefit=20=

> from a better name (or acronym).
>=20
> Regards,   Martin.
>=20
> P.S.: I already subscribed to the list.
>=20
> On 2019/07/30 06:32, Victor Vasiliev wrote:
>> Hi Eliot,
>>=20
>> WebTransport is roughly "WebSockets, but for unreliable transport",
>> currently described in
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vvv-webtransport-overview-00 and
>> https://wicg.github.io/web-transport/.  It's not related to BCP 190
>> discussion that happened at the other portion of ARTAREA meeting.
>>=20
>> Cheers,
>>   Victor.
>>=20
>> On Mon, Jul 29, 2019 at 5:29 PM Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com> wrote:
>>=20
>>> Hi Victor,
>>>=20
>>> Sorry if this has been covered, but for those of us out of the room, =
could
>>> you provide two or three sentences as to what the mailing list is =
supposed
>>> to cover?  Is this more BCP 190 stuff or something more generic or =
just
>>> something else?
>>>=20
>>> Thanks,
>>>=20
>>> Eliot
>>>=20
>>> On 29 Jul 2019, at 22:58, Victor Vasiliev <
>>> vasilvv=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Hello everyone,
>>>=20
>>> Judging from the in-person discussions in Montreal, there appears to =
be a
>>> decent amount of interest in the WebTransport work.  Everyone =
interested is
>>> invited to join our mailing list:
>>>=20
>>>   https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/webtransport
>>>=20
>>> Cheers,
>>>   Victor.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> hybi mailing list
>> hybi@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hybi
>>=20
>=20
> --=20
> Prof. Dr.sc. Martin J. D=C3=BCrst
> Department of Intelligent Information Technology
> College of Science and Engineering
> Aoyama Gakuin University
> Fuchinobe 5-1-10, Chuo-ku, Sagamihara
> 252-5258 Japan
> _______________________________________________
> dispatch mailing list
> dispatch@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch

--
Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/


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From: Peter Thatcher <pthatcher@google.com>
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2019 13:36:41 -0700
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Subject: Re: [dispatch] [hybi] WebTransport Mailing List
To: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2E_D=C3=BCrst?= <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>,  Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "hybi@ietf.org" <hybi@ietf.org>,  Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>, "webtransport@ietf.org" <webtransport@ietf.org>,  "dispatch@ietf.org" <dispatch@ietf.org>, HTTP Working Group <ietf-http-wg@w3.org>, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
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What's wrong with "WebTransport"?  It seems like a good name to me.  With
what is it confusable?

On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 6:50 AM Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:

> +1.
>
> Naming things is hard, but when they're generic and confusable with other
> things, it's worth the pain.
>
>
> > On 29 Jul 2019, at 11:53 pm, Martin J. D=C3=BCrst <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.=
jp>
> wrote:
> >
> > I think Eliot's question shows that "WebTransport" may greatly benefit
> > from a better name (or acronym).
> >
> > Regards,   Martin.
> >
> > P.S.: I already subscribed to the list.
> >
> > On 2019/07/30 06:32, Victor Vasiliev wrote:
> >> Hi Eliot,
> >>
> >> WebTransport is roughly "WebSockets, but for unreliable transport",
> >> currently described in
> >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vvv-webtransport-overview-00 and
> >> https://wicg.github.io/web-transport/.  It's not related to BCP 190
> >> discussion that happened at the other portion of ARTAREA meeting.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >>   Victor.
> >>
> >> On Mon, Jul 29, 2019 at 5:29 PM Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi Victor,
> >>>
> >>> Sorry if this has been covered, but for those of us out of the room,
> could
> >>> you provide two or three sentences as to what the mailing list is
> supposed
> >>> to cover?  Is this more BCP 190 stuff or something more generic or ju=
st
> >>> something else?
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>>
> >>> Eliot
> >>>
> >>> On 29 Jul 2019, at 22:58, Victor Vasiliev <
> >>> vasilvv=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hello everyone,
> >>>
> >>> Judging from the in-person discussions in Montreal, there appears to
> be a
> >>> decent amount of interest in the WebTransport work.  Everyone
> interested is
> >>> invited to join our mailing list:
> >>>
> >>>   https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/webtransport
> >>>
> >>> Cheers,
> >>>   Victor.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> hybi mailing list
> >> hybi@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hybi
> >>
> >
> > --
> > Prof. Dr.sc. Martin J. D=C3=BCrst
> > Department of Intelligent Information Technology
> > College of Science and Engineering
> > Aoyama Gakuin University
> > Fuchinobe 5-1-10, Chuo-ku, Sagamihara
> > 252-5258 Japan
> > _______________________________________________
> > dispatch mailing list
> > dispatch@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
>
> --
> Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/
>
> _______________________________________________
> dispatch mailing list
> dispatch@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>What&#39;s wrong with &quot;WebTransport&quot;?=C2=A0=
 It seems like a good name to me.=C2=A0 With what is it confusable?</div></=
div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On=
 Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 6:50 AM Mark Nottingham &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mnot@mn=
ot.net">mnot@mnot.net</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,20=
4);padding-left:1ex">+1. <br>
<br>
Naming things is hard, but when they&#39;re generic and confusable with oth=
er things, it&#39;s worth the pain.<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; On 29 Jul 2019, at 11:53 pm, Martin J. D=C3=BCrst &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp" target=3D"_blank">duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I think Eliot&#39;s question shows that &quot;WebTransport&quot; may g=
reatly benefit <br>
&gt; from a better name (or acronym).<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Regards,=C2=A0 =C2=A0Martin.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; P.S.: I already subscribed to the list.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; On 2019/07/30 06:32, Victor Vasiliev wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; Hi Eliot,<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; WebTransport is roughly &quot;WebSockets, but for unreliable trans=
port&quot;,<br>
&gt;&gt; currently described in<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vvv-webtransport-over=
view-00" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/d=
raft-vvv-webtransport-overview-00</a> and<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://wicg.github.io/web-transport/" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">https://wicg.github.io/web-transport/</a>.=C2=A0 It&#3=
9;s not related to BCP 190<br>
&gt;&gt; discussion that happened at the other portion of ARTAREA meeting.<=
br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0Victor.<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; On Mon, Jul 29, 2019 at 5:29 PM Eliot Lear &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:l=
ear@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">lear@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi Victor,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Sorry if this has been covered, but for those of us out of the=
 room, could<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; you provide two or three sentences as to what the mailing list=
 is supposed<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; to cover?=C2=A0 Is this more BCP 190 stuff or something more g=
eneric or just<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; something else?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Eliot<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; On 29 Jul 2019, at 22:58, Victor Vasiliev &lt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; vasilvv=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org" targe=
t=3D"_blank">40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Hello everyone,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Judging from the in-person discussions in Montreal, there appe=
ars to be a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; decent amount of interest in the WebTransport work.=C2=A0 Ever=
yone interested is<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; invited to join our mailing list:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/w=
ebtransport" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mail=
man/listinfo/webtransport</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0Victor.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt; hybi mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:hybi@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">hybi@ietf.org</=
a><br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hybi" rel=3D"nore=
ferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hybi</a><br=
>
&gt;&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; -- <br>
&gt; Prof. Dr.sc. Martin J. D=C3=BCrst<br>
&gt; Department of Intelligent Information Technology<br>
&gt; College of Science and Engineering<br>
&gt; Aoyama Gakuin University<br>
&gt; Fuchinobe 5-1-10, Chuo-ku, Sagamihara<br>
&gt; 252-5258 Japan<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; dispatch mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:dispatch@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dispatch@ietf.o=
rg</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch" rel=3D"nore=
ferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch</a=
><br>
<br>
--<br>
Mark Nottingham=C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.mnot.net/" rel=3D"norefe=
rrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.mnot.net/</a><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
dispatch mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:dispatch@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dispatch@ietf.org</a=
><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

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Subject: Re: [dispatch] [hybi] WebTransport Mailing List
To: Peter Thatcher <pthatcher=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
Cc: "webtransport@ietf.org" <webtransport@ietf.org>, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>,  Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>,  HTTP Working Group <ietf-http-wg@w3.org>, =?UTF-8?Q?Martin_J=2E_D=C3=BCrst?= <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp>,  "dispatch@ietf.org" <dispatch@ietf.org>, "hybi@ietf.org" <hybi@ietf.org>, Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>
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Same as for WebAssembly and WebSocket when not used with a browser with
HTTP.

For example MQTT over WebSocket to penetrate firewalls has very little to
do with Web.

On 31 July 2019 at 22.37.39, Peter Thatcher (
pthatcher=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org) wrote:

What's wrong with "WebTransport"?  It seems like a good name to me.  With
what is it confusable?

On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 6:50 AM Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:

> +1.
>
> Naming things is hard, but when they're generic and confusable with other
> things, it's worth the pain.
>
>
> > On 29 Jul 2019, at 11:53 pm, Martin J. D=C3=BCrst <duerst@it.aoyama.ac.=
jp>
> wrote:
> >
> > I think Eliot's question shows that "WebTransport" may greatly benefit
> > from a better name (or acronym).
> >
> > Regards,   Martin.
> >
> > P.S.: I already subscribed to the list.
> >
> > On 2019/07/30 06:32, Victor Vasiliev wrote:
> >> Hi Eliot,
> >>
> >> WebTransport is roughly "WebSockets, but for unreliable transport",
> >> currently described in
> >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vvv-webtransport-overview-00 and
> >> https://wicg.github.io/web-transport/.  It's not related to BCP 190
> >> discussion that happened at the other portion of ARTAREA meeting.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >>   Victor.
> >>
> >> On Mon, Jul 29, 2019 at 5:29 PM Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi Victor,
> >>>
> >>> Sorry if this has been covered, but for those of us out of the room,
> could
> >>> you provide two or three sentences as to what the mailing list is
> supposed
> >>> to cover?  Is this more BCP 190 stuff or something more generic or ju=
st
> >>> something else?
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>>
> >>> Eliot
> >>>
> >>> On 29 Jul 2019, at 22:58, Victor Vasiliev <
> >>> vasilvv=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hello everyone,
> >>>
> >>> Judging from the in-person discussions in Montreal, there appears to
> be a
> >>> decent amount of interest in the WebTransport work.  Everyone
> interested is
> >>> invited to join our mailing list:
> >>>
> >>>   https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/webtransport
> >>>
> >>> Cheers,
> >>>   Victor.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> hybi mailing list
> >> hybi@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hybi
> >>
> >
> > --
> > Prof. Dr.sc. Martin J. D=C3=BCrst
> > Department of Intelligent Information Technology
> > College of Science and Engineering
> > Aoyama Gakuin University
> > Fuchinobe 5-1-10, Chuo-ku, Sagamihara
> > 252-5258 Japan
> > _______________________________________________
> > dispatch mailing list
> > dispatch@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
>
> --
> Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/
>
> _______________________________________________
> dispatch mailing list
> dispatch@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch
>

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<html><head><style>body{font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px}</style>=
</head><body style=3D"word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space"><d=
iv id=3D"bloop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:1=
3px;color:rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">Same as for WebAssem=
bly and WebSocket when not used with a browser with HTTP.</div><div id=3D"b=
loop_customfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:=
rgba(0,0,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto"><br></div><div id=3D"bloop_cus=
tomfont" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica,Arial;font-size:13px;color:rgba(0,0=
,0,1.0);margin:0px;line-height:auto">For example MQTT over WebSocket to pen=
etrate firewalls has very little to do with Web.</div> <br><p class=3D"airm=
ail_on">On 31 July 2019 at 22.37.39, Peter Thatcher (<a href=3D"mailto:ptha=
tcher=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org">pthatcher=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.or=
g</a>) wrote:</p> <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"clean_bq"><span><div><=
div></div><div>


<title></title>


<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>What&#39;s wrong with &quot;WebTransport&quot;?=C2=A0 It seems like a =
good
name to me.=C2=A0 With what is it confusable?</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 6:50 AM
Mark Nottingham &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mnot@mnot.net">mnot@mnot.net</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br></div>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
+1.<br>
<br>
Naming things is hard, but when they&#39;re generic and confusable with
other things, it&#39;s worth the pain.<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; On 29 Jul 2019, at 11:53 pm, Martin J. D=C3=BCrst &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp" target=3D"_blank">duerst@it.aoyama.ac.jp</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I think Eliot&#39;s question shows that &quot;WebTransport&quot; may g=
reatly
benefit<br>
&gt; from a better name (or acronym).<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Regards,=C2=A0 =C2=A0Martin.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; P.S.: I already subscribed to the list.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On 2019/07/30 06:32, Victor Vasiliev wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; Hi Eliot,<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; WebTransport is roughly &quot;WebSockets, but for unreliable
transport&quot;,<br>
&gt;&gt; currently described in<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vvv-webtransport-over=
view-00" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/d=
raft-vvv-webtransport-overview-00</a>
and<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://wicg.github.io/web-transport/" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">https://wicg.github.io/web-transport/</a>.=C2=A0 It&#3=
9;s not
related to BCP 190<br>
&gt;&gt; discussion that happened at the other portion of ARTAREA
meeting.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0Victor.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On Mon, Jul 29, 2019 at 5:29 PM Eliot Lear &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:l=
ear@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">lear@cisco.com</a>&gt;
wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi Victor,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Sorry if this has been covered, but for those of us
out of the room, could<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; you provide two or three sentences as to what the
mailing list is supposed<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; to cover?=C2=A0 Is this more BCP 190 stuff or
something more generic or just<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; something else?<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Thanks,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Eliot<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; On 29 Jul 2019, at 22:58, Victor Vasiliev &lt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; vasilvv=3D<a href=3D"mailto:40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org" targe=
t=3D"_blank">40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Hello everyone,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Judging from the in-person discussions in Montreal,
there appears to be a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; decent amount of interest in the WebTransport
work.=C2=A0 Everyone interested is<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; invited to join our mailing list:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/w=
ebtransport" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mail=
man/listinfo/webtransport</a><br>

&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0Victor.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt; hybi mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:hybi@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">hybi@ietf.org</=
a><br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hybi" rel=3D"nore=
ferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/hybi</a><br=
>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; --<br>
&gt; Prof. Dr.sc. Martin J. D=C3=BCrst<br>
&gt; Department of Intelligent Information Technology<br>
&gt; College of Science and Engineering<br>
&gt; Aoyama Gakuin University<br>
&gt; Fuchinobe 5-1-10, Chuo-ku, Sagamihara<br>
&gt; 252-5258 Japan<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; dispatch mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:dispatch@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dispatch@ietf.o=
rg</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch" rel=3D"nore=
ferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch</a=
><br>
<br>
--<br>
Mark Nottingham=C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.mnot.net/" rel=3D"norefe=
rrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.mnot.net/</a><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
dispatch mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:dispatch@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">dispatch@ietf.org</a=
><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dispatch</a><br>=
</blockquote>
</div>


</div></div></span></blockquote></body></html>

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Subject: Re: [hybi] WebTransport Mailing List
To: hybi@ietf.org, Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, dispatch@ietf.org, IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>, HTTP Working Group <ietf-http-wg@w3.org>, webtransport@ietf.org
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On July 29, 2019 9:58:23 PM GMT+01:00, Victor Vasiliev <vasilvv=3D40google=
=2Ecom@dmarc=2Eietf=2Eorg> wrote:
>Hello everyone,
>
>Judging from the in-person discussions in Montreal, there appears to be
>a

Could you find a moment in your busy schedule to respond to what I wrote o=
n this list before making your own new and exciting list, esp wrt this shou=
ld find a way to target h2?

-Andy

>decent amount of interest in the WebTransport work=2E  Everyone
>interested is
>invited to join our mailing list:
>
>  https://www=2Eietf=2Eorg/mailman/listinfo/webtransport
>
>Cheers,
>  Victor=2E

