From nobody Wed Jan 1 16:04:33 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0245612006B for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2020 16:04:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5-qedR88_egV for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2020 16:04:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x234.google.com (mail-lj1-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 10B87120058 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 2020 16:04:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x234.google.com with SMTP id j1so31820636lja.2 for ; Wed, 01 Jan 2020 16:04:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=rtfm-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=g/U42+soTd1Ti5fec2rTTcjWXVmsi8dqXClZ6iUUFIk=; b=fsHVfsF3u8yi9SAv5sZ5n6NDI30bx1M9ktwnU2LmAHflh+WnvUwRd7aDgxK2oW/gQY RSa+dDk3RN8ipOY1jaXR6t/gvi6LmMlf/jVAMUPSle630Uki9w2HVCbme95Wdwli9EQp u2M7CW6Uy0THnF9LF0W2Ae+OdoEYqYoaF2pEngu5hTAyKRBfeScVxKqQhKtSUaUDZbfG KaNCruVxmWLXbEdWPAEyT6rL+aAbP8OM86ySkwOFkVWNfLloXxTjaPi8nJoFVpNzMbY8 nh7y9bhrGAoYeHw8r45NMzqF9nuyKhE7P5/JZe9msoWdQ++LkGNpYjAyW4wz7KebrtBE eyIA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=g/U42+soTd1Ti5fec2rTTcjWXVmsi8dqXClZ6iUUFIk=; b=sRZZ1GO0efuagh2kuS7mTWlJu5DOdXOvRMpPjpb5hU74luTGQt1jn+J9j6OXn5gDVo TAlf28f6P9KtknAxvXCtQy9OWIE5IQxu3VLlGlH6WzWdNGOTYm1wvELeOHk543CNZGAR O0adRbMBf7RPWpAh0Id+UBlq0w9fTo2T5rvlod8twH82jxyVTXVMOdPC8p7e1OPIh5OP Z3IvZe08NKSkpCgSM30Jqp3vPdlv35IrmyIcQOEzDmY1PzqkP4eQtHlGvvsEH8FE+a1X rGzGiAtuuY44DTMGRCfQOhqKAd7U4HSAeCHQOI/ctr2I6DKtrxE8eDfn5H9DACrNNsfG BeAQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWaZ++BdB5f53sz7GcpXzVE73Il3sgkY5jPfdpnEEU+kbBBBkzY 1tBeXTKKe0Q08e7KI7aoyNB564pBMsSf1TK83+ke+Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzlI8NrhidhSi3m5lLXniViQUJPuDJdN8ws3Ibhg1EG5LzG7IqPXpi/ThAFw0SmYt59FFbdUzRB1J4avpT2+ro= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:3a13:: with SMTP id h19mr47383226lja.16.1577923468723; Wed, 01 Jan 2020 16:04:28 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5A21DBF8-996D-410D-A868-95D640C39298@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 16:03:52 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Call for Adoption: draft-pauly-quic-datagram To: Thomas Fossati Cc: Mark Nottingham , IETF QUIC WG , Lars Eggert Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d6190f059b1cefc9" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2020 00:04:33 -0000 --000000000000d6190f059b1cefc9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I support adoption On Mon, Dec 30, 2019 at 2:11 AM Thomas Fossati wrote: > On 11/12/2019, 21:36, Mark Nottingham wrote: > > This is a Call for Adoption of the following document: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pauly-quic-datagram-05 > > > > The Working Group has discussed this document for some time, most > > recently in Singapore. > > > > Please state whether you support adoption of the document by the > > Working Group, and any additional information that you feel may be > > helpful. > > I support adoption of this document. > > Cheers, > > > > > > IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are > confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended > recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the > contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the > information in any medium. Thank you. > --000000000000d6190f059b1cefc9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I support adoption

On Mon, Dec 30, 2019 at 2:11 AM Thom= as Fossati <Thomas.Fossati@arm= .com> wrote:
On 11/12/2019, 21:36, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:
> This is a Call for Adoption of the following document:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/html= /draft-pauly-quic-datagram-05
>
> The Working Group has discussed this document for some time, most
> recently in Singapore.
>
> Please state whether you support adoption of the document by the
> Working Group, and any additional information that you feel may be
> helpful.

I support adoption of this document.

Cheers,





IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in = any medium. Thank you.
--000000000000d6190f059b1cefc9-- From nobody Thu Jan 2 05:33:21 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8396312008D for ; Thu, 2 Jan 2020 05:33:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0t-kQemQYzvf for ; Thu, 2 Jan 2020 05:33:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x235.google.com (mail-lj1-x235.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C29FB120071 for ; Thu, 2 Jan 2020 05:33:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x235.google.com with SMTP id j1so33331587lja.2 for ; Thu, 02 Jan 2020 05:33:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=vd93TE9r1UHlFL5kZPSC3w7ezjUWheia9tnLE6+OZhY=; b=GvIxgh95H6moBjgC/lHZRzfVi/oggJ/E0Mh/Puh9yBLzzMgner0u+1A7uCDr7wuBTA vt7rERu+8XzwoJpFf0ChqECzpCwaJigpR0kjHMBkewKPJjp99asP73BRPOSyX3UOTn/8 GGIXKtOfdjoMPGa3Z7CmhMQx3Nq/nvwZDbur//CzNoQ7JYfpHC1qQK3hkdVriZjjfFA6 kSOpfBC+3Mi+6AWtCLVP74KlgxeZWM1xv5/YynK3Nfhs6pX4S5Bj2ghk2w52mZPMMClv K8KphpoqpXTGSRCXdgOdDrm9ykM7pNjI1ppOivWLK3JUJayfRw97P+FJS9Q6T42xdisB YnNg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=vd93TE9r1UHlFL5kZPSC3w7ezjUWheia9tnLE6+OZhY=; b=ooxTvvXgudOGQLSMbT+gtecKyI/MVxNVIyj3UAPeCgLDk4uLUhWA/Q8Yb4HK3a+JCY fpztseWaLIDC1sJiOC1gYpvyfhaqLnyYDjNRr0DzGFnYSptmmWu4KAGDnS6f4FPSti+s IUrgh3RuQnAP4rOn02wy/FJkfgJ9I9StEZ5pdq/RNnLuJXzQUfI5kQvWMtfru2Gvc7Tm 3ZheNlWUM+spypq0n7WC59dSkm79lFQb+5RQXo17crPmj29kOWkfGtAlw94q4EgUh/rP am7wKa3r2PgsXAfWvsXGVa3jQg4dFdfsMmLUmg5NK47EZ2e+NlZype6Rr3NViXwDuboh OWqA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWBGyijq9x9nuTKVu4jIq1rqc6cWE9hs2EFzvG1fr7OTczXsYNr K6MJIMmh1TjdhQHoXNmrBTjJlQuCyfnREiwmrLdMNkGg X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqypCmkaq8tBAS7F/3PhEp3EcuWcMfG7+EI+PXm0WoUR/hEgmbpP2iTb9cNKXkoJ9Tuha1S82pQ0B1HWw8IfbyM= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:58c:: with SMTP id 134mr50313407ljf.12.1577971993754; Thu, 02 Jan 2020 05:33:13 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Jiuhai Zhang Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2020 21:33:02 +0800 Message-ID: Subject: streamid attack To: quic@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000273e84059b283cdb" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2020 13:33:18 -0000 --000000000000273e84059b283cdb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" In 2.1. Stream Types and Identifiers A stream ID that is used out of order results in all streams of that type with lower-numbered stream IDs also being opened. Attacker can send a stream frame with a large streamid, then server will open a lot of streams. How to avoid this besides flow control? Why we should open lower-numbered stream IDs? --000000000000273e84059b283cdb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In=C2=A02.1. Stream Types and Identifiers
A stream ID that is used out of = order results in all streams of that type with lower-numbered stream IDs al= so being opened.

Attacker can send a stream frame with a large streamid, t= hen server will open a lot of streams. How to avoid this besides flow contr= ol? Why we should open=C2=A0lower-numbered stream IDs?
--000000000000273e84059b283cdb-- From nobody Thu Jan 2 06:56:16 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4ECD12007C for ; Thu, 2 Jan 2020 06:56:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -17.5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-17.5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b2MHXV9HeZ2v for ; Thu, 2 Jan 2020 06:56:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm1-x335.google.com (mail-wm1-x335.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::335]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D97D912004F for ; Thu, 2 Jan 2020 06:56:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm1-x335.google.com with SMTP id b19so5774893wmj.4 for ; Thu, 02 Jan 2020 06:56:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=k9mOv5VSPWVinVzsXZJ4CQC2OWBUuQx8MZHmD6Aqoxw=; b=s3nn2wREl2BEFcG0lGvwM/AymfnKeyHZUVpNRHrUdGiO6Qnv+yRjphXDaTbWF9WJkg bJfQyTnunma7zJn7ypWbMfIAJE4N8fu+cq4mDqmuzZOuIbvoegFDFp4KLTyovr2/c165 +65ysZvPyCGOykB7xxd+2D9qzsEugFo/YFQ50pre8QeHxT7B+sfakNlIinDY5jKxbedM qIRt7Vjyti7t8Jc6s63joa6uwyfQ6u9eNvMg5bJMO36fwE0dAN9Qbwkkxd5Xv1e/PrTo Xlb53/0MwkM2NcnMH2UuJQ0mToG+eLChqjZdL3NZreFpXcfGk/04MBnS9RpP242lBYz4 lo1A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=k9mOv5VSPWVinVzsXZJ4CQC2OWBUuQx8MZHmD6Aqoxw=; b=BC619OSnyMIKmctClpk1WSiVj/Qm0gsRd2sawhx7d82+/l39oc54IWqj0e9pUYJnsQ urxIylmvNrh82HIB+xC6+EsnpWKTd3W2+6CKBlxbSY9t/nfbc+70t7rBzdNoUe/NM/kr gOkIXZvqNRYP7566D4dPsH1HrBgPNJZo17pA9hG6mPQ8+tNWbRmYYCq/LmBNcOHWV4ql zezTya5tUosjf4RuUuoUtI8Nte/7/2AYiEqPH3AtYXm97dBSejKdXUC7zOz1T5eRlzHr YJBPNmbQgm683c1bKSFFJiu+KPvS9SpnIE1NaglDNOOVnc2ph4V6/oBtvfeZHUp/mpKE eS7Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXA453H3WFUU0/GxOc7fKWsdmXwZT5YszwRjWnpzYPoVlr354pF iPzGlyFrthAsmZArneAys0JD9/kReGQKJyJZCM7iEQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwDdyh9bkB7VU9YpS2qiTCHLNrLNoV+kU+E9tZ+mD0J79727iU6VNfDMvxTK3hii6RIFdIi3/4oJOVtyNExyQ0= X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:210b:: with SMTP id u11mr14795117wml.43.1577976971114; Thu, 02 Jan 2020 06:56:11 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Ian Swett Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2020 09:55:58 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: streamid attack To: Jiuhai Zhang Cc: IETF QUIC WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d45936059b296465" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2020 14:56:15 -0000 --000000000000d45936059b296465 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" This is avoided by limiting the number of open streams with MAX_STREAMS. If you're willing to let the peer open a certain number of streams, the only 'attack' is that it's lower cost to do it with a single frame. I'll note there are ways to reduce the state associated with these 'open', but not yet referenced streams to a few bytes(ie: a hashmap entry), and that sort of accounting would have to be done whether you consider them open or closed. I believe it made some implementations simpler to assume they were opened once a higher number was referenced, but I don't have a link to the relevant issue on hand at the moment. On Thu, Jan 2, 2020 at 8:33 AM Jiuhai Zhang wrote: > In 2.1. Stream Types and Identifiers > A stream ID that is used out of order results in all streams of that type > with lower-numbered stream IDs also being opened. > > Attacker can send a stream frame with a large streamid, then server will > open a lot of streams. How to avoid this besides flow control? Why we > should open lower-numbered stream IDs? > --000000000000d45936059b296465 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This is avoided by limiting the number of open streams wit= h MAX_STREAMS.=C2=A0 If you're willing to let the peer open a certain n= umber of streams, the only 'attack' is that it's lower cost to = do it with a single frame.

I'll note there are ways = to reduce the state associated with these 'open', but not yet refer= enced streams to a few bytes(ie: a hashmap entry), and that sort of account= ing would have to be done whether you consider them open or closed.

I believe it made some implementations=C2=A0simpler to as= sume they were opened once a higher number was referenced, but I don't = have a link to the relevant issue on hand at the moment.

On Thu, Jan 2= , 2020 at 8:33 AM Jiuhai Zhang <jiuhai.zhang@gmail.com> wrote:
In=C2=A02.1. Stream Types and Iden= tifiers
A stream = ID that is used out of order results in all streams of that type with lower= -numbered stream IDs also being opened.

Attacker can send a stream frame= with a large streamid, then server will open a lot of streams. How to avoi= d this besides flow control? Why we should open=C2=A0lower-numbered = stream IDs?
--000000000000d45936059b296465-- From nobody Fri Jan 3 14:17:21 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADBD61200C5 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2020 14:17:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vyNgYgkBw6dU for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2020 14:17:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx36-out10.antispamcloud.com (mx36-out10.antispamcloud.com [209.126.121.30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 028A81200B8 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2020 14:17:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from xse20.mail2web.com ([66.113.196.20] helo=xse.mail2web.com) by mx35.antispamcloud.com with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1inVFq-0002FU-Li for quic@ietf.org; Fri, 03 Jan 2020 23:17:16 +0100 Received: from xsmtp21.mail2web.com (unknown [10.100.68.60]) by xse.mail2web.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47qK5N1L3yzLGZ for ; Fri, 3 Jan 2020 14:17:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.5.2.14] (helo=xmail04.myhosting.com) by xsmtp21.mail2web.com with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1inVFo-0007Fx-1p for quic@ietf.org; Fri, 03 Jan 2020 14:17:12 -0800 Received: (qmail 16041 invoked from network); 3 Jan 2020 22:17:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.200.66]) (Authenticated-user:_huitema@huitema.net@[72.235.197.82]) (envelope-sender ) by xmail04.myhosting.com (qmail-ldap-1.03) with ESMTPA for ; 3 Jan 2020 22:17:11 -0000 Subject: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-huitema-quic-1wd-00.txt References: <157808947065.9004.17349694784024748553.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: IETF QUIC WG From: Christian Huitema Autocrypt: addr=huitema@huitema.net; 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WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <157808947065.9004.17349694784024748553.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------1CE93D5A572E838A09224635" Content-Language: en-US X-Originating-IP: 66.113.196.20 X-Spampanel-Domain: xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Username: 66.113.196.20/32 Authentication-Results: antispamcloud.com; auth=pass smtp.auth=66.113.196.20/32@xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Class: ham X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.04) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: Mvzo4OR0dZXEDF/gcnlw0c2Pj46HODYmpAMVAv0J1pOpSDasLI4SayDByyq9LIhVuMTcAAUlHU7q uRySZLWRlkTNWdUk1Ol2OGx3IfrIJKywOmJyM1qr8uRnWBrbSAGDcnqpk5VeF3xR4kF6iVwRtbgN zB/4Jkrw1eDLcif59ftxUN88peKr8zBk6CUIzDy3U7Tmz6iKnkQL9gqsxD347235Nhqq+/HvroPq 8GSPg+7KJix/R2qbtdH2ZflMjNgfUz0sPgnpAk2KA2vJwMd1uY6jSvfpO+1kZkomjtjB6X7/nuj3 koRhn2BlE7dXoT0pGVmhMAaQ/AfCRwRe7yHm5oY+NYmsSGn+svMubxnbgm1cr18FZBEPC2/c16Xd 7sC9aC4xteE1WLqGS9YoqrsZ2DyteN0e+ECCv9/f+GPymkgDVo7QBKA4MctKq4ifYPcXFRL2K3LA EfDXVOdt7wDbusYnuEVWSxKMHbU0zkNM3EElFDaoLuOPKc8gc82pKfhB7T02ZXdoQxMs//iOE4Fl hiCv9TR+UxzLZWL8hwGBjhoI3W+YcuHfP5PkZb5A+wE5qGdpH54Oa3V8I76VOEvlwPpZ90pncljT Sb0eCPh6fGVjVg/I1zTYZRaNE2jpldWq6eE+/eK5AMpoINLAqG+nukQFvZCW98vYpJKK67eWWbCH gbVpRK3T9+h2PwMALJBCd4KYdSkxvdUr9nZxUI0KdbdCp3Zd9clP8wSiJZWbJCg35R5vCGCRun6Y x0PkyFKG3rCz80DDiVW8aSy8wE19PTXg724gFzhHYUe+7aKm0vUz5WpLW3D2lOiKNAOTEjb3Ti+J 2sBvM/O0p+zizleC4lU8fDj1CnRx+r4b/1Q/PZ/kq8vSl1Wa6SIVOhAl6lCBvOnCUbNPgcPcQwzM gKHyQxUo+ql2ySTkvEFH/23XMww2BnTTFGX5/yI4Ky+1ZJcbGqc5H4PEZHeoI/d6LWFf332z7LMw LGdoi9FMQ5j9dQUvMi1YKAun15JQSJLyCT5k+MTObVKxHy/dols381l9r9ft9daDonlwd6LnuX+J u10= X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@quarantine11.antispamcloud.com Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2020 22:17:20 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------1CE93D5A572E838A09224635 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just posted this draft defining a timestamp option in ACK. It enables 1 way delay measurements, which are quite useful if you are running time based congestion algorithms (e.g. LEDBAT) or bandwidth measurement based algorithms (e.g. BBR). It is implemented in Picoquic. -- Christian Huitema -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: New Version Notification for draft-huitema-quic-1wd-00.txt Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2020 14:11:10 -0800 From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Christian Huitema A new version of I-D, draft-huitema-quic-1wd-00.txt has been successfully submitted by Christian Huitema and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-huitema-quic-1wd Revision: 00 Title: Quic ACK Timestamps For Measuring One-Way Delays Document date: 2020-01-03 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 7 URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-huitema-quic-1wd-00.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-huitema-quic-1wd/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-huitema-quic-1wd-00 Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-huitema-quic-1wd Abstract: The QUIC extension for one way delay mesurements adds a single timestamp to the ACK frame. The timestamp is set to the number of microseconds from the beginning of the connection to the time at which the ACK frame is sent. The draft defines the "enable_one_way_delay" transport parameter for negotiating the extension, and two new frame types for timestamped ACK with or without ECN counts. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat --------------1CE93D5A572E838A09224635 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Just posted this draft defining a timestamp option in ACK. It enables 1 way delay measurements, which are quite useful if you are running time based congestion algorithms (e.g. LEDBAT) or bandwidth measurement based algorithms (e.g. BBR). It is implemented in Picoquic.

-- Christian Huitema



-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-huitema-quic-1wd-00.txt
Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2020 14:11:10 -0800
From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
To: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>



A new version of I-D, draft-huitema-quic-1wd-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by Christian Huitema and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name: draft-huitema-quic-1wd
Revision: 00
Title: Quic ACK Timestamps For Measuring One-Way Delays
Document date: 2020-01-03
Group: Individual Submission
Pages: 7
URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-huitema-quic-1wd-00.txt
Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-huitema-quic-1wd/
Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-huitema-quic-1wd-00
Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-huitema-quic-1wd


Abstract:
The QUIC extension for one way delay mesurements adds a single
timestamp to the ACK frame. The timestamp is set to the number of
microseconds from the beginning of the connection to the time at
which the ACK frame is sent. The draft defines the
"enable_one_way_delay" transport parameter for negotiating the
extension, and two new frame types for timestamped ACK with or
without ECN counts.



Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat

--------------1CE93D5A572E838A09224635-- From nobody Sat Jan 4 08:13:21 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACF0412007C for ; Sat, 4 Jan 2020 08:13:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id azUyj7WU8gFz for ; Sat, 4 Jan 2020 08:13:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd2f.google.com (mail-io1-xd2f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d2f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1D36A120046 for ; Sat, 4 Jan 2020 08:13:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd2f.google.com with SMTP id x1so44323081iop.7 for ; Sat, 04 Jan 2020 08:13:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=8t1stLFf3GlOak9h+j6JbTEIY0Z2XLU5wuvl7AAdh9c=; b=a4bpsIf5bmte0sY/1WQXf5L1ypEcgptmDyFoJujpJYHY8WZegDFWTCCQFEoHRYTaGn 1ii5GHBp+PcjuHrZMc3GpG9qT0f4/+dkAdN1UGmEUjasXkP0eoZdNsbe2gS4oXr7f61r FpUnEsPoJrtiUONTgN7UHcsX21Q56mZ8MB/vUo0Rx+BDeZTbCTVwf4yRn9vrcr6wZ7Vy 7Wd1WjtbjI0lwel7ZUzkMfy7guvnrDh3IH9Khj5CJ4RI5PnzslXa05ZOMu1WbENrWRJ0 kB+KO18Xuwf/V3Ozg6KT+Spvl2CA9VZazhVhEkYa6/Pfe6EiEMO1JX35JzALqyhlMsd5 6y+g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=8t1stLFf3GlOak9h+j6JbTEIY0Z2XLU5wuvl7AAdh9c=; b=aBg4jhXv/w7QIgE+MabpUhvqCIqUHtiuzHPK4qNrmms21TtiveHJUvwckPXBGGDgrk iVrD9iRFD0Ma5L+ASySgie/RPKtZwE8511U8mQACD1fXzlgoZlDGhUXajxcaJP1dT8rU IgfY/U7rI5TvxhEKqLEpkWDYducBIk8ZXRsImU2xcxqfIXYWfXLLucx+xlBq4rKaMBgh AJOUilDTlws5aSgtoEd9gb/vr5I0+fr5HMU1JUtT3HQtsio6Auxgm/h1ZoygZj6ZRlLd 5CeSCYeU0K0G+IRsO0KxLn9W+3QdOKBKf9z5z6l8HVW8oJFLaRPOT0TL0SGKETuF6bGt Qd/Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUpjXJeYQJi/BYNkQO8BGEyrSGt3JRNmqSs65SFiusgIuBAx9Aj DsqAEHq++V0/Ipg0bv301gHf3k2apjPznxgUMq0c5tPM X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxoaO5H4T25d+YojeRkWALp/RdoUXffcdIFCFi2jMxogHOR1gdEhm7YxlJpHh2oqVR1N6upcQyJmsPROvUAMSI= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:c007:: with SMTP id q7mr59318369iof.58.1578154395070; Sat, 04 Jan 2020 08:13:15 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Gyan Mishra Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 11:13:04 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: QUIC Chrome Error with GSUITE & QUIC transport draft publication ETA To: "quic@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001e79bf059b52b410" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2020 16:13:19 -0000 --0000000000001e79bf059b52b410 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable QUIC WG, We had some issues at work recently with Chrome and getting QUIC error. The issue appears to be related to our DMZ firewalls blocking QUIC. I believe GQUIC was working but was somehow bypassing the firewalls logging ; but then when google switched to using QUIC IETF standard I believe that=E2=80=99s when we started seeing the chrome error. Below is an email I sent at work as an overview of QUIC and recommendations on how to resolve the QUIC error. Please provide me any feedback and suggestions on how to best resolve this issue. We use GSUITE at work which uses QUIC and we noticed all traffic to GSUITE was using QUIC over IPV6. We have our network infrastructure enterprise fully dual stacked and since google URIs are all dual stacked as well ; since IPv6 is preferred over IPv4 by default with windows ; all the GSUITE traffic was now using QUIC over IPv6. Has anyone else had any encounter with this scenario where they are using GSUITE and are dual stacked and are seeing all GSUITE traffic use IPv6. Also what is the appropriate ETA of when the QUIC transport draft will be approved standard RFC. =E2=80=94=E2=80=94email below related to google chrome QUIC error and remed= iation=E2=80=94=E2=80=94 What was the patch that was applied to the default silo firewalls that was deployed. Was the patch for QUIC support? Also were we seeing QUIC or GQUIC being logged and dropped on the firewall? Below is some information related to QUIC and how the protocol works: G-QUIC was the protocol developed by google to improve and secure all web traffic. QUIC is the IETF standard version of the protocol. QUIC protocol brief: QUIC was designed to be low overhead and robust and secure by default to eliminate issues with traditional TCP and improving transaction response times. QUIC provides a secure default transport using TLS 1.3 by replacing the TLS record layer with its own framing format while keeping the same TLS handshake. QUIC improves head of line blocking issues with HTTP/2 which multiplexes multiple http requests into the same TCP connection. QUIC transport stream is delivered just as the acronym states =E2=80=9Cquic= k udp internet connections=E2=80=9D over udp instead of traditional TCP. https://www.google.com/amp/s/blog.cloudflare.com/the-road-to-quic/amp/ Wireshark is able to decode and differentiate both G-QUIC and QUIC. QUIC has an IETF WG which I am part of as development of standards for quic transport protocol. At this time QUIC transport is maturing but is still in draft state awaiting WG Last call and IESG review and final reviews before publication as an RFC. Some vendors have started early adoption of the protocol. We should reach out to Checkpoint to see if they support QUIC. Chrome has QUIC enabled by default. At this time google sites such as YouTube and GSUITE apps are the only web URIs that have QUIC protocol enabled on the server for client/server communication to use QUIC. QUIC IETF Draft: https://tools.ietf.org/pdf/draft-ietf-quic-transport-24.pdf For security reasons If the firewall and security appliances don=E2=80=99t = support QUIC then it is recommend to disable QUIC. How to disable QUIC on chrome: https://kinsta.com/knowledgebase/err_quic_protocol_error/ If Checkpoint does support QUIC I would recommend to keep it enabled as it improves web performance and is more secure than traditional TCP. =E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94end email=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94- Kind regards, Gyan Mishra Verizon Communications (VZ) Cell 301 502-1347 --=20 Gyan S. Mishra IT Network Engineering & Technology Verizon Communications Inc. (VZ) 13101 Columbia Pike FDC1 3rd Floor Silver Spring, MD 20904 United States Phone: 301 502-1347 Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com www.linkedin.com/in/networking-technologies-consultant --0000000000001e79bf059b52b410 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
QUIC WG,

We ha= d some issues at work recently with Chrome and getting QUIC error.=C2=A0 Th= e issue appears to be related to our DMZ firewalls blocking QUIC.

I believe GQUIC was working but was somehow bypassing the = firewalls logging ; =C2=A0but then when google switched to using QUIC IETF = standard I believe that=E2=80=99s when we started seeing the chrome error.<= /div>

Below is an email I sent at work as an overview o= f QUIC and recommendations on how to resolve the QUIC error.

Please provide me any feedback and suggestions on how to best = resolve this issue.

We use GSUITE at work which u= ses QUIC and we noticed all traffic to GSUITE was using QUIC over IPV6.=C2= =A0 We have our network infrastructure enterprise fully dual stacked and si= nce google URIs are all dual stacked as well ; since IPv6 is preferred over= IPv4 by default with windows ; all the GSUITE traffic was now using QUIC o= ver IPv6.

Has anyone else had any encounter with = this scenario where they are using GSUITE and are dual stacked and are seei= ng all GSUITE traffic use IPv6.

Also what is the = appropriate ETA of when the QUIC transport draft will be approved standard = RFC.

=E2=80=94=E2=80=94email below related to goo= gle chrome QUIC error and remediation=E2=80=94=E2=80=94

What was the patch that was applied to the default silo firewalls th= at was deployed. =C2=A0

Was the patch for QUIC support?

Also were we seeing QUIC or GQUIC being logged and dropped on the fi= rewall?

Below is some information related to QUIC and how the pro= tocol works:

G-QUIC was the protocol developed by google to impro= ve and secure all web traffic.

QUIC is the IETF standard version = of the protocol.

QUIC protocol brief:

QUIC was designed= to be low overhead and robust and secure by default to eliminate issues wi= th traditional TCP and improving transaction response times. =C2=A0

QUIC provides a secure default transport using TLS 1.3 by replacing the = TLS record layer with its own framing format while keeping the same TLS han= dshake.

QUIC improves head of line blocking issues with HTTP/2 wh= ich multiplexes multiple http requests into the same TCP connection.
<= div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"color:rgb(49,49,49);word-spacing:1px">
<= div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"font-size:1rem;color:rgb(49,49,49);word-spacing:1= px">QUIC transport stream is delivered just as the acronym states =E2=80=9C= quick udp internet connections=E2=80=9D over udp instead of traditional TCP= .


Wireshark is able to = decode and differentiate both G-QUIC and QUIC.

QUIC has an IETF W= G which I am part of as development of standards for quic transport protoco= l.
At this time QUIC transport is maturing but is still in draft = state awaiting WG Last call and IESG review and final reviews before public= ation as an RFC. =C2=A0

Some vendors have started early adoption = of the protocol.=C2=A0 We should reach out to Checkpoint to see if they sup= port QUIC. =C2=A0

Chrome has QUIC enabled by default.=C2=A0 At th= is time google sites such as YouTube and GSUITE apps are the only web URIs = that have QUIC protocol enabled on the server for client/server communicati= on to use QUIC.

QUIC IETF Draft:

For security reasons If the firewall and security appli= ances don=E2=80=99t support QUIC then it is recommend to disable QUIC. =C2= =A0

How to disable QUIC on chrome:

If Checkpoint does support QUIC I would = recommend to keep it enabled as it improves web performance and is more sec= ure than traditional TCP.
<= br>
=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2= =80=94end email=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94-

Kind regards,

Gyan Mishra=C2=A0
Verizon Communications (VZ)
Cell=C2=A0301 502-1347
--
=

Gyan S. Mishr= a

IT Network Engineering & Technology=C2=A0=

Verizon Communications=C2=A0Inc. (VZ)=

13101 Columbia Pike FDC1 3rd Floor

=

Silver Spring, MD 20904

United States<= span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);background-image:initial;background-positi= on:initial;background-repeat:initial">

Phone:=C2=A0301 502-1347

Email:=C2=A0gyan.s.mishra@verizon.= com

www.linkedin.com/in/networking-technologies-co= nsultant


--0000000000001e79bf059b52b410-- From nobody Sat Jan 4 08:23:09 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B721A12025D for ; Sat, 4 Jan 2020 08:23:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SGxLXTk7hCwa for ; Sat, 4 Jan 2020 08:23:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io1-xd29.google.com (mail-io1-xd29.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 62E05120046 for ; Sat, 4 Jan 2020 08:23:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-io1-xd29.google.com with SMTP id b10so44328368iof.11 for ; Sat, 04 Jan 2020 08:23:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=wotroMVjz79jB0cHPXzBK9ybSTzzwxHZNN6/5JohAeQ=; b=TvrhMehXrvxkqZ/XFvEucpmbg2qJwH7ce/DV3aQgZeiheOTHqQcczx2gyfSh24q6W8 MVa5T+S6DsVTM185PPpGLFcmyu7jeqqhBRTVTK5Goj6i4ZBD58Jzpm1NlW4J8AUF5T+X TYsbRqujMtpAYaIQ6PSpO0OuGK0+i3P4OLYvMHTiqOstFmeStDgRUaXFw8fXhmr1q4dF S3J3nWZS/wyOldtC4LFfqA+4BU6ZFQl6Bjj19IoDauVLt4Q+cX9liYn5OsI2WQcHSWI5 Q/jSDIITcn1nU2ni6CqXNqyw0XdeyA1AmFBEjGxypJFkbCC0rmO4QpeqZuB2X8ckrXbY yChw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=wotroMVjz79jB0cHPXzBK9ybSTzzwxHZNN6/5JohAeQ=; b=WrYXPfC2Z3s2AyAutPhEhU2fCNfWGx4MdlkOQCzjtpZX61quGOCJZz+bj0qR2Hax4d cw2c3Lm/l0vpKyQV/Ng3JF5fzbp6GKfqpqvGM7QUz7K04WRoRB3q7r62Nxn50CzF9C/m Td5grKQpqffvINQTyQDxu0rZjKX6GKF3YpzQz+WUxjMdMdHAWKDClLcPpgvUJhm1wzXg sT47BV2zCxhqUMkz3MrEE/2qBBTDX8wDzGw2TjjzAdrfei7XhKPAHqOstaz546AZNIAn wbiUO0PIndNEjoH7Qv8ZDqyh0/BnCyBYQy80iagj/yp80FYCPixN13izFqoTxy05Apfv zaCA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXlwLJnlbNJK5mHlUtmRlf0uAVeccYHM4wB43qqDJmIUeWyXN9m 45oYK377DarVE3h45swEwvmAsAIu3dmSrTTG9SLx/a8v X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwTbEbU3c0z0biqdrFZLxx3m1CHgshqH17uH+Jo41EzyimVrMMffCR2XSlwvDG31/hvdn0hGB7fWyXXQuzFzK0= X-Received: by 2002:a6b:7316:: with SMTP id e22mr64868826ioh.205.1578154984725; Sat, 04 Jan 2020 08:23:04 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5A21DBF8-996D-410D-A868-95D640C39298@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: From: Gyan Mishra Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 11:22:54 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Call for Adoption: draft-pauly-quic-datagram To: Eric Rescorla Cc: IETF QUIC WG , Lars Eggert , Mark Nottingham , Thomas Fossati Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000043e34f059b52d78b" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2020 16:23:08 -0000 --00000000000043e34f059b52d78b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I support adoption. Since Google GSUITE I believe has recently switched to using IETF standard protocol QUIC versus the original proprietary developed by google GQUIC ; I believe for firewalls, load balancer and other network appliances to get on board with support WG adoption of QUIC is critical for any google customers using GSUITE. Kind Regards, Gyan Verizon Communications (VZ) Cell 301 502-1347 On Wed, Jan 1, 2020 at 7:04 PM Eric Rescorla wrote: > I support adoption > > On Mon, Dec 30, 2019 at 2:11 AM Thomas Fossati > wrote: > >> On 11/12/2019, 21:36, Mark Nottingham wrote: >> > This is a Call for Adoption of the following document: >> > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pauly-quic-datagram-05 >> > >> > The Working Group has discussed this document for some time, most >> > recently in Singapore. >> > >> > Please state whether you support adoption of the document by the >> > Working Group, and any additional information that you feel may be >> > helpful. >> >> I support adoption of this document. >> >> Cheers, >> >> >> >> >> >> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are >> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended >> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the >> contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the >> information in any medium. Thank you. >> > -- Gyan S. Mishra IT Network Engineering & Technology Verizon Communications Inc. (VZ) 13101 Columbia Pike FDC1 3rd Floor Silver Spring, MD 20904 United States Phone: 301 502-1347 Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com www.linkedin.com/in/networking-technologies-consultant --00000000000043e34f059b52d78b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I support adoption. =C2=A0

Since Google =C2=A0GSUITE I believe h= as recently switched to using IETF standard protocol QUIC versus the origin= al proprietary developed by google GQUIC ; I believe for firewalls, load ba= lancer and other network appliances to get on board with support WG adoptio= n of QUIC is critical for any google customers using GSUITE.

Kind Regards,
=
Gyan
Verizon Communicati= ons (VZ)
Cell =C2=A0301 502-1347

On Wed, Jan 1, = 2020 at 7:04 PM Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.= com> wrote:
I support adoption

On Mon, Dec 30, 2019 at 2:11 AM Thomas Fossati <<= a href=3D"mailto:Thomas.Fossati@arm.com" target=3D"_blank">Thomas.Fossati@a= rm..com> wrote:
On 11/12/2019, 21:36, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:
> This is a Call for Adoption of the following document:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/html= /draft-pauly-quic-datagram-05
>
> The Working Group has discussed this document for some time, most
> recently in Singapore.
>
> Please state whether you support adoption of the document by the
> Working Group, and any additional information that you feel may be
> helpful.

I support adoption of this document.

Cheers,





IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in = any medium. Thank you.
--
<= div dir=3D"ltr">

Gyan S. Mishra

IT Networ= k Engineering & Technology=C2=A0=

Verizon Communications=C2=A0Inc. (VZ)=

13101 Columbia Pike FDC1 3rd Floor

=

Silver Spring, MD 20904

United States<= span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);background-image:initial;background-positi= on:initial;background-repeat:initial">

Phone:=C2=A0301 502-1347

Email:=C2=A0gyan.s.mishra@verizon.= com

www.linkedin.com/in/networking-technologies-co= nsultant


--00000000000043e34f059b52d78b-- From nobody Sat Jan 4 08:38:34 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C16A4120046 for ; Sat, 4 Jan 2020 08:38:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TqlG0WDCe4Ar for ; Sat, 4 Jan 2020 08:38:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x135.google.com (mail-il1-x135.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9DC5F120241 for ; Sat, 4 Jan 2020 08:38:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x135.google.com with SMTP id v15so39102133iln.0 for ; Sat, 04 Jan 2020 08:38:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=oY4BD0MVUPvMG/jf8eJx/yjSl9bcta+1TkfSphmOhn4=; b=SD6e1Y3kATtrJqVqLeRFKqJZqelIXbfvxvVguxsPZZ3bw4eId49JcfoyN1R13daeqr TUbyhNz5KVE+aBiVC8wk9VEpmLoehjRLb+11Z6+zqOowruPUDsqovqT+H/Q15oKIwYZp r+RPK0pZ+CDP8F/meRdNBT1OLmqSmvpbXBaah31ZXXMen8fh9eqp0sTmukfTFNnNtnep S3rJvvZCC/VrdPPHGqkcFmTcYj3btMADeuxNzOH8Sl+LQU7kQ31xTy/w6HqlpzXzTKu2 MifeTBII64fVukVDVjPCB78PtJdcPGL7p3TxQ3a4kvmRpLkhFrHK65HMnrml/VJnRn7A UL1w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=oY4BD0MVUPvMG/jf8eJx/yjSl9bcta+1TkfSphmOhn4=; b=djuv0ZGVIMvDe1dCDejlTz9tRxBhhIR9or/WC4DC1PS9ae+Xyv7T0LJd9PbOsFRmAw MSulYwtCoIR9DW/i6rMgCd/fTnMX9CblAWKYSZYwJqo7FUkWEAcUwPs/Ohx8zFZLK5S7 bIMoefFalso4wB/ujGSZxYcbsZY4u87bEshF3KsMKXDY2t0LjCEnyaWnB7COqCoiEuki OR2jn2ldMZdbrc+325kke9d9z+tAzua50N8C+8bTbbtJCpuJPePF1aadnn69PP7iWbTD WhN78G+CuR/vVUkFCAK+UWF391cVvCVVLooqwVEDMo8ZenyrH0d1bBdokIk1OWSpbtQg x+6g== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXtGdD+GKD3Pj8g5Fw0a30BMR/7DNu3EdHhbsVxUSlE3O07YGvt 5GJzuoYeaIgLOp8Lt2xuz21tvfAH0kn6qKt1yh69fwQj X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyPMgoYtoOwPA7F0hMarw9n9pVhQgMWWGWiWTFWsdDok2QQ9MRN4Ddcmm6wJ9x7W4R7nZT58Uz6ZE4+hUffCUA= X-Received: by 2002:a92:dc91:: with SMTP id c17mr84024368iln.78.1578155909681; Sat, 04 Jan 2020 08:38:29 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Gyan Mishra Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 11:38:03 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: QUIC and router Nat support and To: IETF QUIC WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000659548059b530e7e" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2020 16:38:33 -0000 --000000000000659548059b530e7e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" QUIC WG, I have a few questions related to QUIC and network support for NAT and also with out of order packets as well as other network related issues in supporting QUIC over UDP. Routers today do not support QUIC for Nat and treat the connections as traditional udp and may not have the proper long lived timers as tcp. Most router vendors have global timeouts for Nat but and the setting are global for all tcp and udp. Since QUIC used udp and is long lived connections how do you break that out of the generic udp timer. It sounds like routers need special treatment like a NAT ALG to support QUIC. As far as routing with ECMP paths since QUIC is udp based has that could cause issues with out of sequence packets. I believe load balancing may also be an issue and how is that addressed since QUIC used udp and really the LB appliances now need to support the QUIC protocol to monitor state of the connections. >From a routing and QOS perspective there also could be issue with WRED which is used to prevent saw tooth effect ramp up and down tcp globalization ; since QUIC uses udp wred will not work. Is their any development in the routing or internet WGs related to support of QUIC from a routing and switching perspective? Kind regards, Gyan Verizon Communications Cell 301 502-1347 -- Gyan S. Mishra IT Network Engineering & Technology Verizon Communications Inc. (VZ) 13101 Columbia Pike FDC1 3rd Floor Silver Spring, MD 20904 United States Phone: 301 502-1347 Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com www.linkedin.com/in/networking-technologies-consultant --000000000000659548059b530e7e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
QUIC WG,

I have a few questions related to QUIC and network support for NAT and a= lso with out of order packets as well as other network related issues in su= pporting QUIC over UDP.

= Routers today do not support QUIC for Nat and treat the connections as trad= itional udp and may not have the proper long lived timers as tcp.=C2=A0

Most router vendors have gl= obal timeouts for Nat but and the setting are global for all tcp and udp.

Since QUIC used udp and i= s long lived connections how do you break that out of the generic udp timer= .

It sounds like routers= need special treatment like a NAT ALG to support QUIC.

As far as routing with ECMP paths since QUI= C is udp based has that could cause issues with out of sequence packets.

I believe load balancing m= ay also be an issue and how is that addressed since QUIC used udp and reall= y the LB appliances now need to support the QUIC protocol to monitor state = of the connections.

From= a routing and QOS perspective there also could be issue with WRED which is= used to prevent saw tooth effect ramp up and down tcp globalization ; sinc= e QUIC uses udp wred will not work.


Is their any development in the rou= ting or internet WGs related to support of QUIC from a routing and switchin= g perspective?

Kind rega= rds,

Gyan
Verizon Communications=C2=A0
Cell 301 502-= 1347
--

Gyan S. Mishra

IT Network Engineering = & Technology=C2=A0=

Verizon Communications=C2=A0Inc. (VZ)=

13101 Columbia Pike FDC1 3rd Floor

=

Silver Spring, MD 20904

United States<= span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);background-image:initial;background-positi= on:initial;background-repeat:initial">

Phone:=C2=A0301 502-1347

Email:=C2=A0gyan.s.mishra@verizon.= com

www.linkedin.com/in/networking-technologies-co= nsultant


--000000000000659548059b530e7e-- From nobody Sat Jan 4 09:07:34 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EBD7120074 for ; Sat, 4 Jan 2020 09:07:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.399 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.399 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id juV7Dw1bAtY9 for ; Sat, 4 Jan 2020 09:07:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-oi1-f180.google.com (mail-oi1-f180.google.com [209.85.167.180]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A2007120046 for ; Sat, 4 Jan 2020 09:07:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-oi1-f180.google.com with SMTP id z64so9058846oia.4 for ; Sat, 04 Jan 2020 09:07:30 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=sEAAs4L3BR7PThwHXoyFhD6riMWzMRUHEuiYpTZQrjk=; b=YCTu2er6XbR3v0rJW2bWzIjRslwjBfA4p8AtCJtqnWGWZuA+W0yYZ+wcEal6NBRGCe HWhXXuNxxxBEHyFRr8xeEVPL68Pi49sTBA3TFU6MbiIyTvfXSBkcYewaIQmKqNqyPXMW LIfg6FqJ39TfNefoegZZmn9CPgR6nkxARcz5zCBefEMukNhfBIWummnfL18SuD/blKxL FVv5WC+tdCO02qI9iUym4CwB94MQabB5CWV1QVdYp2fNoe252onCMhKK0PKLjzkvu5N2 un2qLdxBpZNwSMpTLZZM/KGo8vq3C8TKciWav1tBmfGVHFO4L4OENBFTFRJE0egl35wW Kx9Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUHMC4a9MUrPHxXlju2DPVRCZXsfsVMe1aBBtWsvelJErC5/QyS 1rYsytATfIJ+J83RyIuTNx5oKBlPxjBQk/84zS1xkTII X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxMAZCdeuFItk0pCioDcYHDegafNrs0cfaACcDt7ZsC7sNroaYRDXn4I6NvtZ0v4r+Aj6wOYs4G+fbhfnM4O4A= X-Received: by 2002:aca:cdd6:: with SMTP id d205mr4875473oig.90.1578157649544; Sat, 04 Jan 2020 09:07:29 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5A21DBF8-996D-410D-A868-95D640C39298@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: <5A21DBF8-996D-410D-A868-95D640C39298@mnot.net> From: Phillip Hallam-Baker Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 12:07:16 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Call for Adoption: draft-pauly-quic-datagram To: Mark Nottingham Cc: IETF QUIC WG , Lars Eggert Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000019c8d0059b537604" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2020 17:07:32 -0000 --00000000000019c8d0059b537604 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I support adoption. I am currently looking at a secure monitoring application which provides a low resolution live feed and a higher resolution complete feed. The idea being that the operator screens should always show the most up to date information in real time. The 4K video can lag if there is congestion. On Wed, Dec 11, 2019 at 4:36 PM Mark Nottingham wrote: > This is a Call for Adoption of the following document: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pauly-quic-datagram-05 > > The Working Group has discussed this document for some time, most recently > in Singapore. > > Please state whether you support adoption of the document by the Working > Group, and any additional information that you feel may be helpful. > > This call will end on 15 January 2020. > > Regards, > > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ > > --00000000000019c8d0059b537604 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I s= upport adoption.

I am cur= rently looking=C2=A0at a secure monitoring application which provides a low= resolution live feed and a higher resolution complete feed.

The idea being that the operator screen= s should always show the most up to date information in real time. The 4K v= ideo can lag if there is congestion.



On Wed, Dec 11, 2019 at 4:36 PM Mark Nottingham <<= a href=3D"mailto:mnot@mnot.net">mnot@mnot.net> wrote:
This is a Call for Adoption of= the following document:
=C2=A0 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pau= ly-quic-datagram-05

The Working Group has discussed this document for some time, most recently = in Singapore.

Please state whether you support adoption of the document by the Working Gr= oup, and any additional information that you feel may be helpful.

This call will end on 15 January 2020.

Regards,

--
Mark Nottingham=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.mnot.net/

--00000000000019c8d0059b537604-- From nobody Sat Jan 4 16:51:18 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE5A91200A1 for ; Sat, 4 Jan 2020 16:51:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vXlj-6PFRm08 for ; Sat, 4 Jan 2020 16:51:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x232.google.com (mail-lj1-x232.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 755B912008F for ; Sat, 4 Jan 2020 16:51:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x232.google.com with SMTP id o13so35969755ljg.4 for ; Sat, 04 Jan 2020 16:51:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=E+NWCEEgAKbDlVr9oYamYNXfhBvSaslreNRRNPTvIGw=; b=Wzal8nfHeU62vmyzIGS+ByExWx13ksuFRwcb2aRNfZkbxeYaIkQvwdBoFzkqKaWYgR gG3wdt2MSyhPVTTtYnhKLLkCWjcQvD8nsoo8LtQX9qYm1VWoHVguySFRLZyaR8jVQtA0 ISd7eLhGDXXPypTzzrcc4fe9+/r03zpHPoGkxFxuT5WPVre7PmdlF0N9aM+b/WlXNPvM bnDiKDXU4ZdyRXdaWd04TN5BxHfsn6N2jSgDyLkNNefMK4FE49UxYj8bejBq8j8rCFNX w5xewqNDdjJeibJ/bfqhQwxpudFHHQDYVkzSSwgosY1y2+YRt5xPM5Nws5BunPO/zZdF qGtA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=E+NWCEEgAKbDlVr9oYamYNXfhBvSaslreNRRNPTvIGw=; b=V9kW7mJPUnGXLIC+o9KS5B9hHVRInQdYvpujehaxQ/23neszty0+riWQXFAT6vh1wS GQe3x+3iN55CLPlnQBwQ2BTxpTqtLZUGWByZxLbMDa4KSDrSpFLsVoOR+Aydqcpk9Jse BsiwA8WkrksL6mnE70Yx8tiPIMbk19yOxyDvqS5VHz1UK6RYrLBDu1FfLsLntOxMQW97 Ld/IrQ1h6EY4PHICKilffm0FDOOvxw7ZhtEgTLwJ8hRA10P7/QYaaenA2RRG8eJ7JasI NLlTcKMr5f3bO1BAINDA17xuOnBVNWZqIjYaPQ9E3FYRUYn6KiGQFCSwhAla21QhXcZv hqpw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVKVuEjNT9pFpZFui/NtPnXjCm1axub1QHUPvkzHUVTjquuNivf aPOq+FtwMMDWg6boW1pPvizTxE/2DU/9QvJ/Ok0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxfOhD5IsE82JbegkYesentzPJlil0TtIPVXflard3qlfxQ0zAZbPhES6IPjUYF/mdzCtZA7+0s4LAzOLzNvHU= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:8946:: with SMTP id b6mr54861205ljk.1.1578185471520; Sat, 04 Jan 2020 16:51:11 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Jana Iyengar Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 16:51:00 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: QUIC Chrome Error with GSUITE & QUIC transport draft publication ETA To: Gyan Mishra Cc: "quic@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006b7202059b59f046" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2020 00:51:16 -0000 --0000000000006b7202059b59f046 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Gyan, Firewalls that relied on gQUIC signatures to detect QUIC packets are not going to be able to detect IETF QUIC. You should discuss specific Chrome errors you are seeing as a result of this on the proto-quic@chromium.org mailing list. - jana On Sat, Jan 4, 2020 at 8:13 AM Gyan Mishra wrote: > QUIC WG, > > We had some issues at work recently with Chrome and getting QUIC error. > The issue appears to be related to our DMZ firewalls blocking QUIC. > > I believe GQUIC was working but was somehow bypassing the firewalls > logging ; but then when google switched to using QUIC IETF standard I > believe that=E2=80=99s when we started seeing the chrome error. > > Below is an email I sent at work as an overview of QUIC and > recommendations on how to resolve the QUIC error. > > Please provide me any feedback and suggestions on how to best resolve thi= s > issue. > > We use GSUITE at work which uses QUIC and we noticed all traffic to GSUIT= E > was using QUIC over IPV6. We have our network infrastructure enterprise > fully dual stacked and since google URIs are all dual stacked as well ; > since IPv6 is preferred over IPv4 by default with windows ; all the GSUIT= E > traffic was now using QUIC over IPv6. > > Has anyone else had any encounter with this scenario where they are using > GSUITE and are dual stacked and are seeing all GSUITE traffic use IPv6. > > Also what is the appropriate ETA of when the QUIC transport draft will be > approved standard RFC. > > =E2=80=94=E2=80=94email below related to google chrome QUIC error and rem= ediation=E2=80=94=E2=80=94 > > What was the patch that was applied to the default silo firewalls that wa= s > deployed. > > Was the patch for QUIC support? > > Also were we seeing QUIC or GQUIC being logged and dropped on the firewal= l? > > Below is some information related to QUIC and how the protocol works: > > G-QUIC was the protocol developed by google to improve and secure all web > traffic. > > QUIC is the IETF standard version of the protocol. > > QUIC protocol brief: > > QUIC was designed to be low overhead and robust and secure by default to > eliminate issues with traditional TCP and improving transaction response > times. > > QUIC provides a secure default transport using TLS 1.3 by replacing the > TLS record layer with its own framing format while keeping the same TLS > handshake. > > QUIC improves head of line blocking issues with HTTP/2 which multiplexes > multiple http requests into the same TCP connection. > > QUIC transport stream is delivered just as the acronym states =E2=80=9Cqu= ick udp > internet connections=E2=80=9D over udp instead of traditional TCP.. > > > https://www.google.com/amp/s/blog.cloudflare.com/the-road-to-quic/amp/ > > > Wireshark is able to decode and differentiate both G-QUIC and QUIC. > > QUIC has an IETF WG which I am part of as development of standards for > quic transport protocol. > > At this time QUIC transport is maturing but is still in draft state > awaiting WG Last call and IESG review and final reviews before publicatio= n > as an RFC. > > Some vendors have started early adoption of the protocol. We should reac= h > out to Checkpoint to see if they support QUIC. > > Chrome has QUIC enabled by default. At this time google sites such as > YouTube and GSUITE apps are the only web URIs that have QUIC protocol > enabled on the server for client/server communication to use QUIC. > > QUIC IETF Draft: > https://tools.ietf.org/pdf/draft-ietf-quic-transport-24.pdf > > For security reasons If the firewall and security appliances don=E2=80=99= t support > QUIC then it is recommend to disable QUIC. > > How to disable QUIC on chrome: > https://kinsta.com/knowledgebase/err_quic_protocol_error/ > > > If Checkpoint does support QUIC I would recommend to keep it enabled as i= t > improves web performance and is more secure than traditional TCP. > > =E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94end email=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94- > > Kind regards, > > Gyan Mishra > Verizon Communications (VZ) > Cell 301 502-1347 > -- > > Gyan S. Mishra > > IT Network Engineering & Technology > > Verizon Communications Inc. (VZ) > > 13101 Columbia Pike FDC1 3rd Floor > > Silver Spring, MD 20904 > > United States > > Phone: 301 502-1347 > > Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com > > www.linkedin.com/in/networking-technologies-consultant > > --0000000000006b7202059b59f046 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Gyan,

Firewalls that relied on gQUIC signatures to= detect QUIC packets are not going to be able to detect IETF QUIC. You shou= ld=C2=A0discuss specific Chrome errors you are seeing as a result of this o= n the=C2=A0proto-quic@chromium.o= rg mailing list.

- jana

On Sat, Jan 4, 20= 20 at 8:13 AM Gyan Mishra <haya= busagsm@gmail.com> wrote:
QUIC WG,

We had some issues at work recently with Chrome and getting QUIC = error.=C2=A0 The issue appears to be related to our DMZ firewalls blocking = QUIC.

I believe GQUIC was working but was somehow= bypassing the firewalls logging ; =C2=A0but then when google switched to u= sing QUIC IETF standard I believe that=E2=80=99s when we started seeing the= chrome error.

Below is an email I sent at work a= s an overview of QUIC and recommendations on how to resolve the QUIC error.=

Please provide me any feedback and suggestions o= n how to best resolve this issue.

We use GSUITE a= t work which uses QUIC and we noticed all traffic to GSUITE was using QUIC = over IPV6.=C2=A0 We have our network infrastructure enterprise fully dual s= tacked and since google URIs are all dual stacked as well ; since IPv6 is p= referred over IPv4 by default with windows ; all the GSUITE traffic was now= using QUIC over IPv6.

=
Has anyone else had any en= counter with this scenario where they are using GSUITE and are dual stacked= and are seeing all GSUITE traffic use IPv6.

Al= so what is the appropriate ETA of when the QUIC transport draft will be app= roved standard RFC.

=E2=80=94=E2=80=94email below= related to google chrome QUIC error and remediation=E2=80=94=E2=80=94

What was the patch that was applied to the default si= lo firewalls that was deployed. =C2=A0

Was the patch for = QUIC support?

Also were we seeing QUIC or GQUIC being logged and = dropped on the firewall?

Below is some information related to QUI= C and how the protocol works:

G-QUIC was the protocol developed b= y google to improve and secure all web traffic.

QUIC is the IETF = standard version of the protocol.

QUIC protocol brief:

= QUIC was designed to be low overhead and robust and secure by default to el= iminate issues with traditional TCP and improving transaction response time= s. =C2=A0

QUIC provides a secure default transport using TLS 1.3 = by replacing the TLS record layer with its own framing format while keeping= the same TLS handshake.

QUIC improves head of line blocking issu= es with HTTP/2 which multiplexes multiple http requests into the same TCP c= onnection.

QUIC transport stream is delivered just as the acronym= states =E2=80=9Cquick udp internet connections=E2=80=9D over udp instead o= f traditional TCP..




Wir= eshark is able to decode and differentiate both G-QUIC and QUIC.

= QUIC has an IETF WG which I am part of as development of standards for quic= transport protocol.

At this time QUIC transport is maturing but = is still in draft state awaiting WG Last call and IESG review and final rev= iews before publication as an RFC. =C2=A0

Some vendors have start= ed early adoption of the protocol.=C2=A0 We should reach out to Checkpoint = to see if they support QUIC. =C2=A0

Chrome has QUIC enabled by de= fault.=C2=A0 At this time google sites such as YouTube and GSUITE apps are = the only web URIs that have QUIC protocol enabled on the server for client/= server communication to use QUIC.

QUIC IETF Draft:

For security reasons If the firewal= l and security appliances don=E2=80=99t support QUIC then it is recommend t= o disable QUIC. =C2=A0

How to disable QUIC on chrome:

If Checkpoint does su= pport QUIC I would recommend to keep it enabled as it improves web performa= nce and is more secure than traditional TCP.

= =E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94end email=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94-

Kind regards,

Gyan Mishr= a=C2=A0
Verizon Communicati= ons (VZ)
Cell=C2=A0301 502-1347
--

Gyan S. Mishra

= IT Ne= twork Engineering & Technology=C2=A0=

Verizon Communications=C2=A0Inc. (VZ)=

13101 Columbia Pike FDC1 3rd Floor

=

Silver Spring, MD 20904

United States<= span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);background-image:initial;background-positi= on:initial;background-repeat:initial">

Phone:=C2=A0301 502-1347

Email:=C2=A0gyan.s.mishra@verizon.= com

www.linkedin.com/in/networking-technologies-co= nsultant


--0000000000006b7202059b59f046-- From nobody Sat Jan 4 17:10:36 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82EE612008F for ; Sat, 4 Jan 2020 17:10:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id niPX3EUVKTWb for ; Sat, 4 Jan 2020 17:10:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x133.google.com (mail-il1-x133.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9E3C612008D for ; Sat, 4 Jan 2020 17:10:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x133.google.com with SMTP id x5so39577355ila.6 for ; Sat, 04 Jan 2020 17:10:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=KwXpU0uA0PUzKwpTt99P4vWYZO3zNziln9IENtNrWBc=; b=VVS9RDaApnhS6hPBs0xf5i+qm84UCtQLvJeLtU7SXuoplUtuTFGOUTS6DvqGMg4mHm 0b42ynp1BwtH/bE7PRkezFUjso6YYUdwKmDCjIRNkBvNAhoBol6w4gplXRA/jRP9ltca RfFoeJqdMRQc/16PBxSZrnKq1CEptr0RUZky+x1jBzgeMeCHHSQ7QWH/coLTtWgbTx2Y 6nistPQj6dUi2nNCkVazdCwPPihyjc3YKdsQRqpKLCF0lV6UUdjqe0cIRE2oTrJB226b 6cwoZ+kY4QyMlLNAmGB9VYEvmx43cP4cSU4mRrrryj6Z7yAugkRcIbFVb896nRb8ylbg gUNg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=KwXpU0uA0PUzKwpTt99P4vWYZO3zNziln9IENtNrWBc=; b=LNcgeuEkp6uNpK5L5bQUw4Skb0oEt7G+MRC57+RONxNxgBsDIxVDPAHyNIEdaXiCmc 4wcBl+KYgvwbPcGyro+JWsl7TUjpwqWV+EorAMhQWFhQsOfNS4V2PmhPBFqzGxXCJnG0 7w+OSlmN5joo3bt8h1dsJxh2kDwZTz/8PyhhhHledTS4gmWCOQpXatYoNImCR8UObiJj fpy1XkM4zffbnsP8hghr/Cvf1+Z5St2V8UKMrLk9ZyFxfx3YhXI9xphc2qpBR7FcZM2s VBeZ91nyd3bTwF2QnBuD1kn37UPcxa4vPVVbkEXbbKEYptXkNEoZ6d2J5yKO+MKCkbr9 MxnA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWtFoydRkEU4FBp5LUoypbdMCOr5aWYN3zOCg6GMAft3RSvKx5X 3OnyVDv8rW326qpWDBuLe/lzxAAKcio+MauKedQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwSO6dmRwF1hJjlbX/arErVAzA8wscQq/ZyQt+/FQvVJKhqxrlS++t+FSbOqo4iKOtgTne2177Q1NaMGafTCL0= X-Received: by 2002:a92:4e:: with SMTP id 75mr79885886ila.276.1578186631757; Sat, 04 Jan 2020 17:10:31 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Gyan Mishra Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 20:10:21 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: QUIC Chrome Error with GSUITE & QUIC transport draft publication ETA To: Jana Iyengar Cc: "quic@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000934581059b5a35ee" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2020 01:10:34 -0000 --000000000000934581059b5a35ee Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Jana! Gyan On Sat, Jan 4, 2020 at 7:51 PM Jana Iyengar wrote: > Gyan, > > Firewalls that relied on gQUIC signatures to detect QUIC packets are not > going to be able to detect IETF QUIC. You should discuss specific Chrome > errors you are seeing as a result of this on the proto-quic@chromium.org > mailing list. > > - jana > > On Sat, Jan 4, 2020 at 8:13 AM Gyan Mishra wrote: > >> QUIC WG, >> >> We had some issues at work recently with Chrome and getting QUIC error. >> The issue appears to be related to our DMZ firewalls blocking QUIC. >> >> I believe GQUIC was working but was somehow bypassing the firewalls >> logging ; but then when google switched to using QUIC IETF standard I >> believe that=E2=80=99s when we started seeing the chrome error. >> >> Below is an email I sent at work as an overview of QUIC and >> recommendations on how to resolve the QUIC error. >> >> Please provide me any feedback and suggestions on how to best resolve >> this issue. >> >> We use GSUITE at work which uses QUIC and we noticed all traffic to >> GSUITE was using QUIC over IPV6. We have our network infrastructure >> enterprise fully dual stacked and since google URIs are all dual stacked= as >> well ; since IPv6 is preferred over IPv4 by default with windows ; all t= he >> GSUITE traffic was now using QUIC over IPv6. >> >> Has anyone else had any encounter with this scenario where they are usin= g >> GSUITE and are dual stacked and are seeing all GSUITE traffic use IPv6. >> >> Also what is the appropriate ETA of when the QUIC transport draft will b= e >> approved standard RFC. >> >> =E2=80=94=E2=80=94email below related to google chrome QUIC error and re= mediation=E2=80=94=E2=80=94 >> >> What was the patch that was applied to the default silo firewalls that >> was deployed. >> >> Was the patch for QUIC support? >> >> Also were we seeing QUIC or GQUIC being logged and dropped on the >> firewall? >> >> Below is some information related to QUIC and how the protocol works: >> >> G-QUIC was the protocol developed by google to improve and secure all we= b >> traffic. >> >> QUIC is the IETF standard version of the protocol. >> >> QUIC protocol brief: >> >> QUIC was designed to be low overhead and robust and secure by default to >> eliminate issues with traditional TCP and improving transaction response >> times. >> >> QUIC provides a secure default transport using TLS 1.3 by replacing the >> TLS record layer with its own framing format while keeping the same TLS >> handshake. >> >> QUIC improves head of line blocking issues with HTTP/2 which multiplexes >> multiple http requests into the same TCP connection. >> >> QUIC transport stream is delivered just as the acronym states =E2=80=9Cq= uick udp >> internet connections=E2=80=9D over udp instead of traditional TCP.. >> > >> >> https://www.google.com/amp/s/blog.cloudflare.com/the-road-to-quic/amp/ >> >> >> Wireshark is able to decode and differentiate both G-QUIC and QUIC. >> >> QUIC has an IETF WG which I am part of as development of standards for >> quic transport protocol. >> >> At this time QUIC transport is maturing but is still in draft state >> awaiting WG Last call and IESG review and final reviews before publicati= on >> as an RFC. >> >> Some vendors have started early adoption of the protocol. We should >> reach out to Checkpoint to see if they support QUIC. >> >> Chrome has QUIC enabled by default. At this time google sites such as >> YouTube and GSUITE apps are the only web URIs that have QUIC protocol >> enabled on the server for client/server communication to use QUIC. >> >> QUIC IETF Draft: >> https://tools.ietf.org/pdf/draft-ietf-quic-transport-24.pdf >> >> For security reasons If the firewall and security appliances don=E2=80= =99t >> support QUIC then it is recommend to disable QUIC. >> >> How to disable QUIC on chrome: >> https://kinsta.com/knowledgebase/err_quic_protocol_error/ >> >> >> If Checkpoint does support QUIC I would recommend to keep it enabled as >> it improves web performance and is more secure than traditional TCP. >> >> =E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94end email=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94= - >> >> Kind regards, >> >> Gyan Mishra >> Verizon Communications (VZ) >> Cell 301 502-1347 >> -- >> >> Gyan S. Mishra >> >> IT Network Engineering & Technology >> >> Verizon Communications Inc. (VZ) >> >> 13101 Columbia Pike >> >> FDC1 3rd Floor >> >> Silver Spring, MD 20904 >> >> United States >> >> Phone: 301 502-1347 >> >> Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com >> >> www.linkedin.com/in/networking-technologies-consultant >> >> -- Gyan S. Mishra IT Network Engineering & Technology Verizon Communications Inc. (VZ) 13101 Columbia Pike FDC1 3rd Floor Silver Spring, MD 20904 United States Phone: 301 502-1347 Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com www.linkedin.com/in/networking-technologies-consultant --000000000000934581059b5a35ee Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks Jana!

=
Gyan

On Sat, Jan 4, 2020 at 7:51 PM Jana Iyengar <= jri.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
=
Gyan,

Firewal= ls that relied on gQUIC signatures to detect QUIC packets are not going to = be able to detect IETF QUIC. You should=C2=A0discuss specific Chrome errors= you are seeing as a result of this on the=C2=A0proto-quic@chromium.org mailing list.=

- jana

=
On Sat, Jan 4, 2020 at 8:13 AM Gyan M= ishra <hayabu= sagsm@gmail.com> wrote:
QUIC WG,

We had some issues at work recently with Chrome and getting QUIC er= ror.=C2=A0 The issue appears to be related to our DMZ firewalls blocking QU= IC.

I believe GQUIC was working but was somehow b= ypassing the firewalls logging ; =C2=A0but then when google switched to usi= ng QUIC IETF standard I believe that=E2=80=99s when we started seeing the c= hrome error.

Below is an email I sent at work as = an overview of QUIC and recommendations on how to resolve the QUIC error.

Please provide me any feedback and suggestions on = how to best resolve this issue.

We use GSUITE at = work which uses QUIC and we noticed all traffic to GSUITE was using QUIC ov= er IPV6.=C2=A0 We have our network infrastructure enterprise fully dual sta= cked and since google URIs are all dual stacked as well ; since IPv6 is pre= ferred over IPv4 by default with windows ; all the GSUITE traffic was now u= sing QUIC over IPv6.

Has anyone else had any enco= unter with this scenario where they are using GSUITE and are dual stacked a= nd are seeing all GSUITE traffic use IPv6.

Also w= hat is the appropriate ETA of when the QUIC transport draft will be approve= d standard RFC.

<= div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"font-size:1rem">=E2=80=94=E2=80=94email below rel= ated to google chrome QUIC error and remediation=E2=80=94=E2=80=94

What was the patch that was applied to the default silo= firewalls that was deployed. =C2=A0

Was the patch for QUIC= support?

Also were we seeing QUIC or GQUIC being logged and drop= ped on the firewall?

Below is some information related to QUIC an= d how the protocol works:

G-QUIC was the protocol developed by go= ogle to improve and secure all web traffic.

QUIC is the IETF stan= dard version of the protocol.

QUIC protocol brief:

QUI= C was designed to be low overhead and robust and secure by default to elimi= nate issues with traditional TCP and improving transaction response times. = =C2=A0

QUIC provides a secure default transport using TLS 1.3 by = replacing the TLS record layer with its own framing format while keeping th= e same TLS handshake.

QUIC improves head of line blocking issues = with HTTP/2 which multiplexes multiple http requests into the same TCP conn= ection.

QUIC transport stream is delivered just as the acronym st= ates =E2=80=9Cquick udp internet connections=E2=80=9D over udp instead of t= raditional TCP..


=
=
Wireshark is able to decode and differentiate both G-QUIC an= d QUIC.

QUIC has an IETF WG which I am part of as development of = standards for quic transport protocol.

At this time QUIC transpor= t is maturing but is still in draft state awaiting WG Last call and IESG re= view and final reviews before publication as an RFC. =C2=A0

Som= e vendors have started early adoption of the protocol.=C2=A0 We should reac= h out to Checkpoint to see if they support QUIC. =C2=A0

Chrome ha= s QUIC enabled by default.=C2=A0 At this time google sites such as YouTube = and GSUITE apps are the only web URIs that have QUIC protocol enabled on th= e server for client/server communication to use QUIC.

QUIC IETF Draft:

For security reas= ons If the firewall and security appliances don=E2=80=99t support QUIC then= it is recommend to disable QUIC. =C2=A0

<= div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"font-size:1rem">How to disable QUIC on chrome:


If = Checkpoint does support QUIC I would recommend to keep it enabled as it imp= roves web performance and is more secure than traditional TCP.

=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94end email=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80= =94=E2=80=94-

Kind regards,

Gyan Mishra=C2=A0
Veri= zon Communications (VZ)
Cel= l=C2=A0301 502= -1347
--

Gyan S. Mishra

IT Network Engineering & Technology=C2=A0=

Verizon Communications=C2=A0Inc. (VZ)=

13101 Columb= ia Pike FDC1 3rd Floor

=

Silver Spring, MD 20904

United States<= span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);background-image:initial;background-positi= on:initial;background-repeat:initial">

Phone:=C2=A0301 502-1347

Email:=C2=A0gyan.s.mishra@verizon.= com

www.linkedin.com/in/networking-technologies-co= nsultant


--
<= div dir=3D"ltr">

Gyan S. Mishra

IT Networ= k Engineering & Technology=C2=A0=

Verizon Communications=C2=A0Inc. (VZ)=

13101 Columbia Pike FDC1 3rd Floor

=

Silver Spring, MD 20904

United States<= span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80);background-image:initial;background-positi= on:initial;background-repeat:initial">

Phone:=C2=A0301 502-1347

Email:=C2=A0gyan.s.mishra@verizon.= com

www.linkedin.com/in/networking-technologies-co= nsultant


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Sun, 5 Jan 2020 02:32:30 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="===============7426598927621840156==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Repository Activity Summary Bot To: quic@ietf.org Subject: Weekly github digest ( Activity Summary) Message-Id: <20200105073230.5725930600A8@mailuser.nyi.internal> Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2020 02:32:30 -0500 (EST) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2020 07:32:34 -0000 --===============7426598927621840156== MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format="flowed" Events without label "editorial" Issues ------ * quicwg/base-drafts (+2/-0/=F0=9F=92=AC14) 2 issues created: - Note that initial packets coalesced with other packets to make a 1200 b= yte UDP datagram could be split up by the network (by erickinnear) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3317=20 - Irrelevant normative language in section recommending ack-range limits = (by janaiyengar) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3316=20 7 issues received 14 new comments: - #3317 Note that initial packets coalesced with other packets to make a = 1200 byte UDP datagram could be split up by the network (3 by ekr, ianswett= , janaiyengar) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3317=20 - #3316 Fix language in recommendations for ack-range limits (1 by ianswe= tt) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3316=20 - #3311 Guidance wrt ACK frames that don't fit in a packet (3 by ianswett= , janaiyengar) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3311 [-transport]=20 - #3300 Forwarding upstream errors, and the implications (4 by ianswett, = kazuho, martinthomson) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3300 [-http]=20 - #3294 Make transport parameter ID and length varint (1 by ekr) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3294 [-transport]=20 - #3274 Encrypting Retry token (1 by ekr) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3274 [-tls] [design] [prop= osal-ready]=20 - #2999 QPACK decoder stream buffer grows without bounds (1 by dtikhonov) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2999 [-qpack]=20 Pull requests ------------- * quicwg/base-drafts (+3/-0/=F0=9F=92=AC6) 3 pull requests submitted: - Rewrite section on ack range limiting (by janaiyengar) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3315=20 - Editorial suggestion against #3311 (by janaiyengar) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3314=20 - What if an ACK frame doesn't fit in a packet (by ianswett) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3312 [-transport]=20 2 pull requests received 6 new comments: - #3312 What if an ACK frame doesn't fit in a packet (2 by ianswett, jana= iyengar) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3312 [-transport]=20 - #3303 Forwarding status of errors on streams (4 by MikeBishop, kazuho, = martinthomson) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3303 [-http] [design]=20 Repositories tracked by this digest: ----------------------------------- * https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts --===============7426598927621840156== Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Weekly github digest ( Activity Summary)

Sunday January 05, 2020

Events without label "editorial"

Issues

quicwg/base-drafts (+2/-0/=F0=9F=92=AC14)

2 issues created:

7 issues received 14 new comments:

Pull requests

quicwg/base-drafts (+3/-0/=F0=9F=92=AC6)

3 pull requests submitted:

2 pull requests received 6 new comments:

Repositories tracked by this digest:

--===============7426598927621840156==-- From nobody Sun Jan 5 19:57:09 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC480120099 for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2020 19:57:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.72 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.72 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=IqGmX47K; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=o9xwCh8j Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZQfQf_Db4pfa for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2020 19:57:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3A60212001B for ; Sun, 5 Jan 2020 19:57:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id B246E21E56; Sun, 5 Jan 2020 22:57:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend2 ([10.202.2.163]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 05 Jan 2020 22:57:03 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h=from :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject :message-id:date:cc:to; s=fm1; bh=soo39rEipNkkZLgME8SOUL2bWz9+Mt zKOpDW+4ErVUg=; b=IqGmX47KBip7oUD/wHB0U5ntK8oxnJqTJ2dIotVbKbkEEB Nx/aZuWn6tGKgkW2it3ePN5RsjUQQu8rnBJi7U1Ll9D9JnxcbMkZtLhFsfgUz8Rh Nt4UfFQL4HBhn/4n+IsPAmQuBQ/6Sl1wMU5Xfzup8TNnPU8MEL21+UPlJKhOe02/ kSOGsiTB0EPrOQo2KGr3i37/e+2tQ/p8EWlLswfinbyhI1UVSMG9t3+fYBqhM8fk Nphqqp3nTIJTMwdrj4R80vkh3oL7R+agpsBgiuwE3cd1bY676VheY4TJyEpxe+JW kLgTJG50T2+bo972O0T/QUSijbjLi23fI8OKMEwA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=soo39r EipNkkZLgME8SOUL2bWz9+MtzKOpDW+4ErVUg=; b=o9xwCh8jVRFoWpFC0k2ksr LfxJE+M84Lxk9hXs5g8+9n35E8NqY0LpW5kS1Q7/hHdDtih6o06KbxQKFLtFnJqN uKrP75RahKce8r32ISIX43SJ9MeViYF5hWmwlnCRvwDUkODUdcBBt2WYYxCfW43/ tSMZxxd08fBCnT7gLP3GC6j+m/DM18asaVd8lwvkKTzKxfXZKuqTQoppVxlvmrFx qzmo86JoEDGSgP1vx6Twy2J7XYv3XeS9yAnDu81X6FEoYwBwW/M2t9DUDThvJCNK nGn2ZGw1xniTGx+aypuGoSljioRFmH/ovztK/24/iZUrRU/hraA1ekNn6otHl5xA == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedrvdegledgieefucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhephfgtgfgguffkfffvofesthhqmhdthhdtvdenucfhrhhomhepofgrrhhkucfp ohhtthhinhhghhgrmhcuoehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtqeenucffohhmrghinhepgh hithhhuhgsrdgtohhmpdhmnhhothdrnhgvthenucfkphepudduledrudejrdduheekrddv hedunecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtnecuve hluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptd X-ME-Proxy: Received: from macbook-pro.mnot.net (unknown [119.17.158.251]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id ABDC330602DB; Sun, 5 Jan 2020 22:57:01 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Nottingham Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.40.2.2.4\)) Subject: Consensus Calls for Late Stage Documents Message-Id: <43D8DACA-C1C4-449A-A4BC-4F0E6F8F1CAB@mnot.net> Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2020 14:56:58 +1100 Cc: Lars Eggert To: IETF QUIC WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.40.2.2.4) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2020 03:57:08 -0000 Happy New Year, Working Group. The following issues have proposals for resolution, and discussion so = far seems to support consensus to accept them. If you object, please do = so on the issue or in response to this message (changing the Subject = appropriately!). Absent any pushback, we'll direct the editors to = incorporate them late next week. See for the current = state of issues in the Late Stage process, itself defined at = . * #3274: Encrypting Retry token The proposal is * #3247: I am concerned the congestion control text is too permissive. The proposal is * #3245: Make RFC 6928 normative The proposal is * #3244: Can we make a normative ref to RFC8085? The proposal is * #3243: Add caution when using IW10 and fragmentation=20 The proposal is * #3152: Client storage of tokens should be independent of other stored = state The proposal is * #3142: It is unspecified how a server sends Handshake packets during / = after migration The proposal is * #3094: congestion window increase on every ACKed packet could result = in bursty sends The proposal is * #3014: Handling of corrupt Retry packets The proposal is * #2863: unrecoverable loss pattern leads to deadlock The proposal is * #2789: Use a higher seed RTT for new paths The proposal is to close with no action. * #2744: Idle Timer Can Fire Even with Outstanding Data to Send The proposal is * #2602: Idle timeout needs more description and a recommendation The proposal is -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Mon Jan 6 03:29:53 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com 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Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EFC212008A; Mon, 6 Jan 2020 06:03:52 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: quic@ietf.org Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-quic-applicability-06.txt X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.115.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quic@ietf.org Message-ID: <157831943199.8124.16389351966526383477@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2020 06:03:52 -0800 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2020 14:03:52 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the QUIC WG of the IETF. Title : Applicability of the QUIC Transport Protocol Authors : Mirja Kuehlewind Brian Trammell Filename : draft-ietf-quic-applicability-06.txt Pages : 16 Date : 2020-01-06 Abstract: This document discusses the applicability of the QUIC transport protocol, focusing on caveats impacting application protocol development and deployment over QUIC. Its intended audience is designers of application protocol mappings to QUIC, and implementors of these application protocols. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-quic-applicability/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-quic-applicability-06 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-quic-applicability-06 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-quic-applicability-06 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Jan 6 06:04:10 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietf.org Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A805120845; Mon, 6 Jan 2020 06:03:52 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: quic@ietf.org Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-quic-manageability-06.txt X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.115.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quic@ietf.org Message-ID: <157831943226.8020.11034388732020203374@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2020 06:03:52 -0800 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2020 14:03:52 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the QUIC WG of the IETF. Title : Manageability of the QUIC Transport Protocol Authors : Mirja Kuehlewind Brian Trammell Filename : draft-ietf-quic-manageability-06.txt Pages : 22 Date : 2020-01-06 Abstract: This document discusses manageability of the QUIC transport protocol, focusing on caveats impacting network operations involving QUIC traffic. Its intended audience is network operators, as well as content providers that rely on the use of QUIC-aware middleboxes, e.g. for load balancing. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-quic-manageability/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-quic-manageability-06 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-quic-manageability-06 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-quic-manageability-06 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Jan 6 14:31:17 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69B4B120041 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2020 14:31:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -17.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-17.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iGZIZL0ZdQkj for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2020 14:31:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm1-x32b.google.com (mail-wm1-x32b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A2A8D120020 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2020 14:31:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm1-x32b.google.com with SMTP id b19so16799236wmj.4 for ; Mon, 06 Jan 2020 14:31:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=1XgqyKnWA4jY/sGfCPk9naxc6Bjf5y0JzN2m4eeoubg=; b=ZICwDx3Tjlpd69LvUXqSrJLUOJv6FFiy25bJ2dus8lXIvqk3Jf/o3ESv2BsOJy7+8I KKTzWwR0SBIn6rcDAIkdCyXPhBPWcNPYjM+6jtGnsodu7dqH5PexYIP4LBHKI9yBIVbO fCGGbOqJ1zoe8ulxTU4dRMMiHXIxnbp7p9tRClnciVnTEYPvcZ8QwpTB/u0LV9tKaxUC LUL2cDlurgI1lsYMg4eOTaVyiVYmDxZ6+oEH5sP42T0091kW9QxJ8w90XXdewlAaQ2ys VC/NiWkzzllmwH2aM6geo8o/4D4hwhzdWCOqE0mbwN1UfwBZP9qpCj+zk/NALFqaK930 aMrw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=1XgqyKnWA4jY/sGfCPk9naxc6Bjf5y0JzN2m4eeoubg=; b=CzpkK5HFWVbMJz5v5bCFKkXe1fULiM4lJnTXoSTmgmxNZhld5CQ2Mey3HXPeS4roE2 QhFu/Je/y16in2WHYYYwQfimKteMJaJjG0M8UnWWA1k1U99fnRyXUpDmpc2xDcbjxnaq +V2TDQRNXqEVtSQozDxKPLJsNkG9/EoNBdkdBdEFcVQBHBnuK1gPKijG+zm61iQIzzTb nQdndO5fGPyp5YtsgBAx8ZSJxgadHb83EJb9DmPyqzRD18xBjewx2fdlvMaQyPKPibDE pnQI1C11gGMlJYpN8NSUSjuvJm3Na2pwbSHIb0P1hW5kS0KusUafF37PkK+2ALPDdBFs HWEA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAX73ojI1ES7ZGowODL4e5ovchDgKPhAhwVnxZ1DUFtOyvHpWUyw eamOzVcWrV24t6qF5BNgv6pGb1KZqIWExt3ofrIHgg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwgXrU7En2pg1cUpBBetnUZvvIKcb6nX9vpjUTqXnxKpPco7OmgfQf4GfchYIFS1ZdWeoOw0Gu7bTg+2PmmHVc= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:dc85:: with SMTP id t127mr36144951wmg.16.1578349866720; Mon, 06 Jan 2020 14:31:06 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <43D8DACA-C1C4-449A-A4BC-4F0E6F8F1CAB@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: <43D8DACA-C1C4-449A-A4BC-4F0E6F8F1CAB@mnot.net> From: Ian Swett Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2020 17:30:54 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Consensus Calls for Late Stage Documents To: Mark Nottingham Cc: IETF QUIC WG , Lars Eggert Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002388cb059b803774" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2020 22:31:11 -0000 --0000000000002388cb059b803774 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Thanks for the call, all these resolutions look great to me, but I think the PR is incorrect for the two Retry issues. On Sun, Jan 5, 2020 at 10:57 PM Mark Nottingham wrote: > Happy New Year, Working Group. > > The following issues have proposals for resolution, and discussion so far > seems to support consensus to accept them. If you object, please do so on > the issue or in response to this message (changing the Subject > appropriately!). Absent any pushback, we'll direct the editors to > incorporate them late next week. > > See for the current > state of issues in the Late Stage process, itself defined at < > https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md>. > > * #3274: Encrypting Retry token > The proposal is > I believe the proposal is https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3120 > > * #3247: I am concerned the congestion control text is too permissive. > The proposal is > > * #3245: Make RFC 6928 normative > The proposal is > > * #3244: Can we make a normative ref to RFC8085? > The proposal is > > * #3243: Add caution when using IW10 and fragmentation > The proposal is > > * #3152: Client storage of tokens should be independent of other stored > state > The proposal is > > * #3142: It is unspecified how a server sends Handshake packets during / > after migration > The proposal is > > * #3094: congestion window increase on every ACKed packet could result in > bursty sends > The proposal is > > * #3014: Handling of corrupt Retry packets > The proposal is > Also https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3120 > > * #2863: unrecoverable loss pattern leads to deadlock > The proposal is > > * #2789: Use a higher seed RTT for new paths > The proposal is to close with no action. > > * #2744: Idle Timer Can Fire Even with Outstanding Data to Send > The proposal is > > * #2602: Idle timeout needs more description and a recommendation > The proposal is > > > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ > > --0000000000002388cb059b803774 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for the call, all these resolutions look great= to me, but I think the PR is incorrect for the two Retry issues.

=
On Sun, Ja= n 5, 2020 at 10:57 PM Mark Nottingham <= mnot@mnot.net> wrote:
Happy New Year, Working Group.

The following issues have proposals for resolution, and discussion so far s= eems to support consensus to accept them. If you object, please do so on th= e issue or in response to this message (changing the Subject appropriately!= ). Absent any pushback, we'll direct the editors to incorporate them la= te next week.

See <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/projec= ts/5> for the current state of issues in the Late Stage process, its= elf defined at <https://github.c= om/quicwg/base-drafts/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md>.

* #3274: Encrypting Retry token
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The proposal is <https://github.com= /quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3274>
I believe the = proposal is=C2=A0https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3120=C2=A0

* #3247: I am concerned the congestion control text is too permissive.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The proposal is <https://github.com/q= uicwg/base-drafts/pull/3248>

* #3245: Make RFC 6928 normative
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The proposal is <https://github.com/q= uicwg/base-drafts/pull/3287>

* #3244: Can we make a normative ref to=C2=A0 RFC8085?
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The proposal is <https://github.com/q= uicwg/base-drafts/pull/3248>

* #3243: Add caution when using IW10 and fragmentation
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The proposal is <https://github.com/q= uicwg/base-drafts/pull/3280>

* #3152: Client storage of tokens should be independent of other stored sta= te
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The proposal is <https://github.com/q= uicwg/base-drafts/pull/3150>

* #3142: It is unspecified how a server sends Handshake packets during / af= ter migration
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The proposal is <https://github.com/q= uicwg/base-drafts/pull/3145>

* #3094: congestion window increase on every ACKed packet could result in b= ursty sends
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The proposal is <https://github.com/q= uicwg/base-drafts/pull/3232>

* #3014: Handling of corrupt Retry packets
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The proposal is <https://github.com= /quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3274>

* #2863: unrecoverable loss pattern leads to deadlock
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The proposal is <https://github.com/q= uicwg/base-drafts/pull/3145>

* #2789: Use a higher seed RTT for new paths
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The proposal is to close with no action.

* #2744: Idle Timer Can Fire Even with Outstanding Data to Send
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The proposal is <https://github.com/q= uicwg/base-drafts/pull/3266>

* #2602: Idle timeout needs more description and a recommendation
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The proposal is <https://github.com/q= uicwg/base-drafts/pull/3099>


--
Mark Nottingham=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.mnot.net/

--0000000000002388cb059b803774-- From nobody Mon Jan 6 15:14:25 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 135EE1200CE for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2020 15:14:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=L1tnc7Ix; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=X/FQTlJY Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nz_gO5oxYl21 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2020 15:14:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout4-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3D298120041 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2020 15:14:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 764FC5A2; Mon, 6 Jan 2020 18:14:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Mon, 06 Jan 2020 18:14:20 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm1; bh=L /W4Mt0qApEDrN+rKPqhx7qGo55/5kOtFIivwYCLAiU=; b=L1tnc7IxiglOq7dKw B2WfD7AkgFgOsyLEkj+Hi/PmT+L4seX7hBfjSquyxBb7d/dHyG84LMp15gasObb2 B4nxnhJ4w9FhCPc1LUlQ0WkZhohIvsX+V+cw27YAGw8W5MzytDf/CCJL8hq+ntyP yw9XvA0grAEIHcH1aXjybPhpxthV5WR6GuBQuGEF28bDr3EQDaXMdWAtqDQ4ATIW 0UTOnDyMALslC+fuvj8UJfDk20u0QgqZT+IA6N0o2K2p1OrZO8VHUgWSVMmiPyPZ jSEg+UwuVQtA9YT7ZDayr+5IPLokWdIrDXs8GK0mPIzTHrJE1caPc9OpUwRmSZnf QBI2Q== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=L/W4Mt0qApEDrN+rKPqhx7qGo55/5kOtFIivwYCLA iU=; b=X/FQTlJY/NkGvShR8iY+VWNv7r8Q2IG6+tm2anCExwsxDyTcf938UKtyi 7K2Vx1rNay4fMZb5AAI2zbLnBIlYKTZDzaqk3hbU1kuRpPfzftAmRFncVq/KUbqt kogxiSFoh47ZVg83Z50RWkzhxHZ1qXUCie+VaKtyiJhuZsO4f1Z7vWuYjWHjjzb2 3Hbt5Q7mO7KR+qPgvhFstfmO24RXBqQZYDLcNl0OfBxw/SlgY+Xkztq/eLlF+7fu DePPEMvRftgAXyUOhvPTIK2n57DzKAUePbGJO3YxBtsNZiRkuYRQF5o+mzb/mdb/ yHgL6TnGzrfFDsodV+ZqqnoQCiCgw== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedrvdehuddgtdekucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurheptggguffhjgffgffkfhfvofesthhqmhdthhdtvdenucfhrhhomhepofgrrhhk ucfpohhtthhinhhghhgrmhcuoehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtqeenucffohhmrghinh epghhithhhuhgsrdgtohhmpdhmnhhothdrnhgvthenucfkphepudduledrudejrdduheek rddvhedunecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtne cuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptd X-ME-Proxy: Received: from macbook-pro.mnot.net (unknown [119.17.158.251]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id EA10680059; Mon, 6 Jan 2020 18:14:17 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.40.2.2.4\)) Subject: Re: Consensus Calls for Late Stage Documents From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 10:14:14 +1100 Cc: IETF QUIC WG , Lars Eggert Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <57D80BC3-80F9-4748-9CDC-59245FECBFF5@mnot.net> References: <43D8DACA-C1C4-449A-A4BC-4F0E6F8F1CAB@mnot.net> To: Ian Swett X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.40.2.2.4) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2020 23:14:24 -0000 Correct - sorry about that, my jet lag is obviously not quite finished. Cheers, > On 7 Jan 2020, at 9:30 am, Ian Swett wrote: >=20 > Thanks for the call, all these resolutions look great to me, but I = think the PR is incorrect for the two Retry issues. >=20 > On Sun, Jan 5, 2020 at 10:57 PM Mark Nottingham wrote: > Happy New Year, Working Group. >=20 > The following issues have proposals for resolution, and discussion so = far seems to support consensus to accept them. If you object, please do = so on the issue or in response to this message (changing the Subject = appropriately!). Absent any pushback, we'll direct the editors to = incorporate them late next week. >=20 > See for the current = state of issues in the Late Stage process, itself defined at = . >=20 > * #3274: Encrypting Retry token > The proposal is > I believe the proposal is = https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3120=20 >=20 > * #3247: I am concerned the congestion control text is too permissive. > The proposal is >=20 > * #3245: Make RFC 6928 normative > The proposal is >=20 > * #3244: Can we make a normative ref to RFC8085? > The proposal is >=20 > * #3243: Add caution when using IW10 and fragmentation=20 > The proposal is >=20 > * #3152: Client storage of tokens should be independent of other = stored state > The proposal is >=20 > * #3142: It is unspecified how a server sends Handshake packets during = / after migration > The proposal is >=20 > * #3094: congestion window increase on every ACKed packet could result = in bursty sends > The proposal is >=20 > * #3014: Handling of corrupt Retry packets > The proposal is > Also https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3120=20 >=20 > * #2863: unrecoverable loss pattern leads to deadlock > The proposal is >=20 > * #2789: Use a higher seed RTT for new paths > The proposal is to close with no action. >=20 > * #2744: Idle Timer Can Fire Even with Outstanding Data to Send > The proposal is >=20 > * #2602: Idle timeout needs more description and a recommendation > The proposal is >=20 >=20 > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >=20 -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Mon Jan 6 15:25:44 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65AEF120041 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2020 15:25:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.996 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.996 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Afe8dcsZrEIv for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2020 15:25:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qv1-xf35.google.com (mail-qv1-xf35.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::f35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2352C12007C for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2020 15:25:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qv1-xf35.google.com with SMTP id dp13so19803091qvb.7 for ; Mon, 06 Jan 2020 15:25:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject:date:message-id :references:cc:in-reply-to:to; bh=/dRBJaVYJcsjh63LcQKC8V+3FT44EWs3BEAMYTbmX+0=; b=qltacW+zU7fayw+0eMwu9teHuLH+ANkvUKHO4a3dYtIsraiWDP23IDrEnVLkcOnaGW VLD/Z5lJsmtjH0hLXfArorPryKywpEzVaScwsXIAeMzvVU+AMen64O9Rg/tvV2xJXUaP QQQRDs1Fowf99gnqpn4ZqXQQ0JlBiefwcGCSekIO3LU+k+bMLhvrHojDh28RO4C70Uds T6MTz+2rFS3zUWcoZaAVS1RTfzKHpm9VBj7ch7ZE0B/4/3pw+5qluO5IiJKbr3565khm 5PSB8xVWPPVKUbaXrtLUDz82M+Wvlkpd2PdN74fjlPJ/KofDWxhpPA5X/flLLwT9HzTb dVrw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:date:message-id:references:cc:in-reply-to:to; bh=/dRBJaVYJcsjh63LcQKC8V+3FT44EWs3BEAMYTbmX+0=; b=Vzr0T06VyKb6n/M4LKOrYAao7tt8VjoNCCQI8JuF2C+43bDC07ERQmQJgfzGv7DieL PLqLPXHmaXUaWnthyk5eaAHx7MLvItRKJLNaoRi7t9FPev3qgsfcRbelMC6msLMUIl/k yaY4/i006tjgLJHXQRQx8Qs2ywoUoPAAfkR1LcTz7JoS1cK0/yMlwr0cy3Xkb6UWVX4o wJ43nqpjsfu/lprUxhu/Dm49RXPdxlIYE/sbab8Mp12u0h/Awyl6BAI5+6PQVVoKgbjO x0XzNc4TzOfwWGYjmbI4keibir2YXtF7SvoLCmnSn0dZ02DtQZHj0+C1hsh8Bm1JpVdE Zf4g== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAV3ZuMdxV1xkdOeBy1RpGmLTKBcU3SifQ12k6Lhis+UI64W6yu4 Kr/o/Djxq38jRjRXwOEl3jVCytEScF8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxf6yjPJgskhhbIujrUQz89/I36SNqs4WJupIQHquLTn1G3eVyuYOKLSSmKpHxv6E9ksz1toA== X-Received: by 2002:ad4:4f94:: with SMTP id em20mr78396044qvb.95.1578353139992; Mon, 06 Jan 2020 15:25:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2600:1003:b104:3309:adf3:1833:a2ef:bd0f? ([2600:1003:b104:3309:adf3:1833:a2ef:bd0f]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k184sm21705590qke.2.2020.01.06.15.25.38 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 06 Jan 2020 15:25:39 -0800 (PST) From: Gyan Mishra X-Google-Original-From: Gyan Mishra Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-FFEC7E68-687E-4523-8A8F-8DD8C53FBB04 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: QUIC and router Nat support and Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2020 18:25:38 -0500 Message-Id: <2F1BB899-05DE-41BB-8332-DB74C693652F@gmail.com> References: Cc: IETF QUIC WG In-Reply-To: To: Mirja Kuehlewind X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17C54) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2020 23:25:43 -0000 --Apple-Mail-FFEC7E68-687E-4523-8A8F-8DD8C53FBB04 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Great!! Thank you=20 Kind regards, Gyan Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 6, 2020, at 6:29 AM, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > Hi Gyan, >=20 > We have a document on manageability that should cover most of the points y= ou raised below: >=20 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-quic-manageability/ >=20 > There is also an open issue on GitHub regarding NAT support which explicit= ly say that CID should not be used for NAT. Short time-outs are actually not= a problem if a CID is used from the endpoint that is NATed as address migra= tion is supported by Quic.=20 >=20 > https://github.com/quicwg/ops-drafts/issues/87 >=20 > If you have further points that should be covered by this document but are= currently not, please feel free to raise another issue on GitHub! >=20 > Mirja >=20 >=20 >>> Am 04.01.2020 um 17:38 schrieb Gyan Mishra : >>>=20 >> =EF=BB=BF >> QUIC WG, >>=20 >> I have a few questions related to QUIC and network support for NAT and al= so with out of order packets as well as other network related issues in supp= orting QUIC over UDP. >>=20 >> Routers today do not support QUIC for Nat and treat the connections as tr= aditional udp and may not have the proper long lived timers as tcp.=20 >>=20 >> Most router vendors have global timeouts for Nat but and the setting are g= lobal for all tcp and udp. >>=20 >> Since QUIC used udp and is long lived connections how do you break that o= ut of the generic udp timer.. >>=20 >> It sounds like routers need special treatment like a NAT ALG to support Q= UIC. >>=20 >> As far as routing with ECMP paths since QUIC is udp based has that could c= ause issues with out of sequence packets. >>=20 >> I believe load balancing may also be an issue and how is that addressed s= ince QUIC used udp and really the LB appliances now need to support the QUIC= protocol to monitor state of the connections. >>=20 >> =46rom a routing and QOS perspective there also could be issue with WRED w= hich is used to prevent saw tooth effect ramp up and down tcp globalization ;= since QUIC uses udp wred will not work. >>=20 >>=20 >> Is their any development in the routing or internet WGs related to suppor= t of QUIC from a routing and switching perspective? >>=20 >> Kind regards, >>=20 >> Gyan >> Verizon Communications=20 >> Cell 301 502-1347 >> --=20 >> Gyan S. Mishra >>=20 >> IT Network Engineering & Technology=20 >>=20 >> Verizon Communications Inc. (VZ) >>=20 >> 13101 Columbia Pike FDC1 3rd Floor >>=20 >> Silver Spring, MD 20904 >>=20 >> United States >>=20 >> Phone: 301 502-1347 >>=20 >> Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com >>=20 >> www.linkedin.com/in/networking-technologies-consultant >>=20 >>=20 --Apple-Mail-FFEC7E68-687E-4523-8A8F-8DD8C53FBB04 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Great!!

T= hank you 

Kind regards,

Gyan

Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 6, 2020, at 6:29 AM, Mirja Kuehlewind <= ;mirja.kuehlewind@ericsson.com> wrote:

=EF=BB=BF
Hi Gyan,

We have a document on manageability t= hat should cover most of the points you raised below:
=

There is= also an open issue on GitHub regarding NAT support which explicitly say tha= t CID should not be used for NAT. Short time-outs are actually not a problem= if a CID is used from the endpoint that is NATed as address migration is su= pported by Quic. 


If you have further points that should be covered by this document but ar= e currently not, please feel free to raise another issue on GitHub!

Mirja


Am 04.01.2020 um 17:38 sch= rieb Gyan Mishra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com>:

=EF=BB=BF
QUIC WG,

I have a few questions rela= ted to QUIC and network support for NAT and also with out of order packets a= s well as other network related issues in supporting QUIC over UDP.

Routers today do not support QUIC= for Nat and treat the connections as traditional udp and may not have the p= roper long lived timers as tcp. 

Most router vendors have global timeouts for Nat but and the set= ting are global for all tcp and udp.

Since QUIC used udp and is long lived connections how do you bre= ak that out of the generic udp timer..

It sounds like routers need special treatment like a NAT ALG t= o support QUIC.

As far as= routing with ECMP paths since QUIC is udp based has that could cause issues= with out of sequence packets.

I believe load balancing may also be an issue and how is that addresse= d since QUIC used udp and really the LB appliances now need to support the Q= UIC protocol to monitor state of the connections.
=46rom a routing and QOS perspective there also cou= ld be issue with WRED which is used to prevent saw tooth effect ramp up and d= own tcp globalization ; since QUIC uses udp wred will not work.


Is their a= ny development in the routing or internet WGs related to support of QUIC fro= m a routing and switching perspective?

Kind regards,

Gyan
Verizon Communications 
Cell 301 502-1347
--

Gyan S. Mishra

IT Network Eng= ineering & Technology 

Verizon Communications Inc. (VZ)

13101 Columbia Pike FDC1 3rd Floor

Silver Spring, MD 20904

United States

Phone: 301 502-1347

= Email: <= span style=3D"color:rgb(17,85,204)">gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com

www.linkedin.com/in/networking-tec= hnologies-consultant=


=
= --Apple-Mail-FFEC7E68-687E-4523-8A8F-8DD8C53FBB04-- From nobody Tue Jan 7 06:31:21 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4B03120059 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2020 06:31:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=litespeedtech-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ot7UdslBwSTM for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2020 06:31:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x72b.google.com (mail-qk1-x72b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 12D1512001A for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2020 06:31:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x72b.google.com with SMTP id z14so41514339qkg.9 for ; Tue, 07 Jan 2020 06:31:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=litespeedtech-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:mail-followup-to:mime-version :content-disposition:user-agent; bh=NxDFZINoM+sZT6NhTnmPJ942PkOfl1msxEXD1t8WmfI=; b=QsdvXF7bMPRWbi5o5MkiXZlXCwmkIxAFw2TRfifhICXeaUHE1x3EirZhzXK7lMbn3u HOh6kftdhc8B5QQj2484ZB3CbRqaM2lAsrwqTqvijFVrBywwSHS35K5BSuFkvmovBSc7 YLa4DgxgzxqPtHBe5fkaCvsAjGLblZJjstiPDl0SlEbIBh58J6n1TCzq8BQWDyt0jM3c 5kuL82ui8kaFWUZCnRLfJ694XV/Dmpdaj1hb91ZN1czs3glKq0p+PZ/tFLgFbL+U56Kj Kb0jljHIeVs/qK6onJh4UP/DRX2IXA4fSO2enTimStVE3Yu6k9CpP2ZoV/ch4j1CxoN+ Dpsg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:mail-followup-to :mime-version:content-disposition:user-agent; bh=NxDFZINoM+sZT6NhTnmPJ942PkOfl1msxEXD1t8WmfI=; b=DKcHxhKNRkyrLiWPmzP/7D6HuuiI4EBXOhBZRynskmOjhe+tgf6DU3MdJY1hT0JPQ6 +0z+jZr5u3rc5Tu54nJAKHixXdBi1aB7ZQou/yJrrr7exzuwHi2mlSij/oh/RTSqyaf/ J7jhxl7UOpNQt5Z/kHMF/YLghWtXde2Nq9XwbaPgssnDTxT7y6M+YUowFcx1PUDnWeWp 9iVo2ukLsUTDtrqcTD9sKySKd7yAzNO3XC68NHW3Tn9v94tHvtO2dZrw3YLvHTd94Ui9 Y++irDiTLDxWzia5Tpgon2rVBRRxOHruopIqxRtu6nII6RgSrGRSonC4geZ1T8FpjYQw EK0g== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXykDm/FGJr7uTzgIpLubYnmIdpSJhPNW+O5SWaLQ/lSGhGw2B4 h1JxfCASiHHwnZLEs/dWmQs/aU6rIeY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwymO/7bH8zdq0xe8XKrknAMAngp5K9EfiyNQeMZgvGVlXj3dhS6dzdiVvDdB50optln05aEQ== X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:918:: with SMTP id v24mr88171450qkv.22.1578407477813; Tue, 07 Jan 2020 06:31:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from ubuntu-dmitri (ool-2f1636b6.static.optonline.net. [47.22.54.182]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i6sm22489415qkk.7.2020.01.07.06.31.17 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 07 Jan 2020 06:31:17 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 09:31:15 -0500 From: Dmitri Tikhonov To: IETF QUIC WG Subject: Add extension work to Interop matrix Message-ID: <20200107143114.GC14229@ubuntu-dmitri> Mail-Followup-To: IETF QUIC WG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2020 14:31:21 -0000 Hello, There are now a few extensions that have been proposed and implemented. We should add them to the next Interop matrix. I suggest using the following codes: g Datagram extension r HTTP priorities extension q Loss bits extension ('l' looks too much like '1') 1 One-way delay extension 'g' and 'r' can be added to the third row, while 'q' and '1' can be added to the second row (dropping the "use uppercase letters only" requirement). - Dmitri. From nobody Tue Jan 7 07:17:05 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA7F0120807 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2020 07:17:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.748 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.748 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dcfHRKGGgwB6 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2020 07:17:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ua1-x932.google.com (mail-ua1-x932.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::932]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B71AB120806 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2020 07:17:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ua1-x932.google.com with SMTP id 73so18614168uac.6 for ; Tue, 07 Jan 2020 07:17:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=QdkrwAm3jktMJNnIRXiKRbLYICgDWHLUiqogh2xUjcs=; b=HR6VY5AQAyEkNdP3kt4Vwa48NvRt4046oK9O7grOHgt6Yg+FFL/QTsrW+Ttq5jFQ83 HHMciHzrJXHRwq6nHmcVlbwNf29dh/pde1uKtCa5MHk7D56xrS8fGZgD1aWi/BeFnCar FTH74fuS3GOMpmqk+Q2b65FPh1LkTZ+iZGhRBgLiOldWTonoEIb5caag5M/sL2GMNV4z K62rXjvFdWJPw01FEAdJqJX8L53AUp799+v0MWeij4VUuteFlDiZUx0k7WdyMXIfahSk JcAlrknXhZwQG3WoXq6oUS/7qzkvgggmcOj/T3uW9Ybs4MK7F4nY28Uxdh1Hcl58b+1O KjdA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=QdkrwAm3jktMJNnIRXiKRbLYICgDWHLUiqogh2xUjcs=; b=FdmMW3qiKJnQDVrugUTHDGKiKCuqP9rp0Vx3ejBl8y0H+rWJsctdeT4LP/cd/yxB8K 2L3bKt5cUnKaPctUftzP3H1aQzxxOeW40UZ9Y+K/Ddi20uqD7MtZjApM23EXfaPKMau/ uxioY7TXS3iAKCE6ZN6eWn9k7m1c7JEDifROhTCPiqmd2AqICphHFKId11pUdnX822JU KvybRLCW84tjbnlTCchv9YwgvkIgCDz4xalf0yoaOpnICC+odbilwCtLBbzVkewvsW8n 39bL4tUbk9tJd1y4bhl9XCUWGteYaOq2I9irgv2xsCO3Wf1Nf5ZnDe12EeBzZm83vjis S1rQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWQ3MvMsIOtDSz2+8/EKUNccuDotivC0zLmxUqucS5AwwmNEtZj PXW4QXzKK2YClLQiFC9+adAxtOgo5KOUeIb1sgziThCU X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqweYAzQH9W0dukrEls+33C0lBMGhl8Cyq6T4o4QqVj6uKKXs9c2UuqtzdUsvTCz8gjZ3v6Q40x9JbEdWUjBhQI= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:280c:: with SMTP id w12mr49028826uap.79.1578410219399; Tue, 07 Jan 2020 07:16:59 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200107143114.GC14229@ubuntu-dmitri> In-Reply-To: <20200107143114.GC14229@ubuntu-dmitri> From: Lucas Pardue Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 15:16:48 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Add extension work to Interop matrix To: IETF QUIC WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006fee45059b8e4437" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2020 15:17:04 -0000 --0000000000006fee45059b8e4437 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, 7 Jan 2020, 14:31 Dmitri Tikhonov, wrote: > Hello, > > There are now a few extensions that have been proposed and implemented. > We should add them to the next Interop matrix. I suggest using the > following codes: > > g Datagram extension > r HTTP priorities extension > q Loss bits extension ('l' looks too much like '1') > 1 One-way delay extension > > 'g' and 'r' can be added to the third row, while 'q' and '1' can be > added to the second row (dropping the "use uppercase letters only" > requirement). > > - Dmitri. > Personally I disagree with adding extension-related letters to the matrix. Some of these are in call for adoption, while others are far off that. I'd rather keep the main matrix for features of the core documents. Its great that people want to test these extensions out, but where its difficult to see why these extensions should be included an not others. We're at 19 "codes" right now, and not many implementations satisfy them all. I'd like to find a solution that is more sustainable in the longer term that can support extensions along with QUIC v2 or whatever comes next. I don't know what that looks like but I'd take some inspiration from things like the QUIC Network Simulator interop runner and Web Platform Tests ( https://wpt.fyi/results/?label=experimental&label=master&aligned). Cheers Lucas --0000000000006fee45059b8e4437 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Tue, 7 Jan 202= 0, 14:31 Dmitri Tikhonov, <dtikhonov@litespeedtech.com> wrote:
Hello,

There are now a few extensions that have been proposed and implemented.
We should add them to the next Interop matrix.=C2=A0 I suggest using the following codes:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 g=C2=A0 =C2=A0Datagram extension
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 r=C2=A0 =C2=A0HTTP priorities extension
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 q=C2=A0 =C2=A0Loss bits extension ('l' looks too much= like '1')
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 1=C2=A0 =C2=A0One-way delay extension

'g' and 'r' can be added to the third row, while 'q'= ; and '1' can be
added to the second row (dropping the "use uppercase letters only"= ;
requirement).

=C2=A0 - Dmitri.

Personally I disagree = with adding extension-related letters to the matrix. Some of these are in c= all for adoption, while others are far off that. I'd rather keep the ma= in matrix for features of the core documents.

Its great that people want to= test these extensions out, but where its difficult to see why these extens= ions should be included an not others. We're at 19 "codes" ri= ght now, and not many implementations satisfy them all. I'd like to fin= d a solution that is more sustainable in the longer term that can support e= xtensions along with QUIC v2 or whatever comes next. I don't know what = that looks like but I'd take some inspiration from things like the QUIC= Network Simulator interop runner and Web Platform Tests (htt= ps://wpt.fyi/results/?label=3Dexperimental&label=3Dmaster&aligned).

C= heers
Lucas


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[47.22.54.182]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e3sm57342qtj.30.2020.01.07.07.56.29 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 07 Jan 2020 07:56:29 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 10:56:27 -0500 From: Dmitri Tikhonov To: Lucas Pardue Cc: IETF QUIC WG Subject: Re: Add extension work to Interop matrix Message-ID: <20200107155627.GF14229@ubuntu-dmitri> Mail-Followup-To: Lucas Pardue , IETF QUIC WG References: <20200107143114.GC14229@ubuntu-dmitri> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2020 15:56:34 -0000 On Tue, Jan 07, 2020 at 03:16:48PM +0000, Lucas Pardue wrote: > > g Datagram extension > > r HTTP priorities extension > > q Loss bits extension ('l' looks too much like '1') > > 1 One-way delay extension > --- 8< --- SNIP --- 8< --- > > Its great that people want to test these extensions out, but where its > difficult to see why these extensions should be included an not others. I did not state that we should exclude any extensions. I believe the list above is exhaustive. If not, I am all for adding to it. > We're at 19 "codes" right now, and not many implementations satisfy them > all. I'd like to find a solution that is more sustainable in the longer > term that can support extensions along with QUIC v2 or whatever comes next. The good thing about the current form of the Interop matrix is that it is easy to start a new sheet and that older matrices become useless rapidly. The English alphabet has 26 letters, so we are using 19 / (26 * 2 + 10) = 31% of all easily readable code available to us. Going up to 23 codes (37%) is not a big deal. I don't expect us to run out. Even if we do, we can always do something new with the next version of the matrix. (I considered proposing E1, E2, or Eq, Eg, but one-letter codes are simpler and fit with the current model.) > I don't know what that looks like but I'd take some inspiration from things > like the QUIC Network Simulator interop runner and Web Platform Tests ( > https://wpt.fyi/results/?label=experimental&label=master&aligned). My proposal is just to capture extension work in a simple, low entry cost, manner. I am not willing to commit to create a framework such as to which you refer above. - Dmitri. From nobody Tue Jan 7 09:46:29 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74A7912012D for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2020 09:46:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.748 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.748 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5ED8miUMdGfd for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2020 09:46:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vs1-xe32.google.com (mail-vs1-xe32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C83AF1200CC for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2020 09:46:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-vs1-xe32.google.com with SMTP id y125so49151vsb.6 for ; Tue, 07 Jan 2020 09:46:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=qWGOzZHxw67cGbQobSdb/zuYs99Xxn1S+WahyQnPetA=; b=jCVPY4LxojFSadvXrNVMZW/tNHWkjhD36fVp83P5dzgCHELIJusQDqOUPSYR5OBZPX rTvYSV/FjOxhHRzrfYjwFrjGXYwdWyoF/Bief8IpVbtrJcfx4iJClv2LkLv4xYvig17m CCNP5QCTgs0gEo1bplLWeFpFMSXyoUqO7ogaz4b2/Nptt4gLrjvZKvyXtTePk3ypkOk5 ovqScuGFoomrqD2aqU7DqgbmFFTwA7/9IR7SQBycHPX8Qy7v5swgfp+aka+wuFZ8/EPe EsaWqIRX/IQ0W7eLe36fF7iBQZIgYgVK2QCTqpPXa7D6AvS8uheRMLDFphXBK3NxtzdO TwaQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=qWGOzZHxw67cGbQobSdb/zuYs99Xxn1S+WahyQnPetA=; b=tZMY3L3PiV4aWUscx6B6/7axwt9yq25+lfToqAuFatTE+788of5cQGyLt2JTHtD+YB D7eLmbdvlOIOAQhf68zVFBele75kiaTjuXA22wA5kEXcLDO8sqWW12fOVVSNHWptDM8a 70BZ41uuYZxdbPfXIjgsO6uHUCusRPG373WlD5RLtIJi0hqGsoWxxlaVU7I3D4KeyAHS iFHUzaaKWN+ZXNxUpjmsN+qk5YFRqrrusN7ZSVgpNz/hBZ/ygNI5v8DTQdjII9r5RLIM X4We9ZaBuN0rV4NBih0alTlnxVy0kiugabaRyI5zAVAJPl2nvMnH5gtMQjFw0u54qVln 2azQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXTzVn/u+DW7Cx3ARePUmqLAAdO+J3KKIowo717dAcbddwDARBf gcnd/vDcoIgoPpg76bUVpoq94IlKLtNvevIUiYw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyzG0vtXdEuZ3zNGw7is9WrfqgfsVCutel0Mp/Zq4EXLuFsjshvnFaGkOmOv6VK0pSIORX7DGG/Sw+qkFzYwMw= X-Received: by 2002:a67:e2c4:: with SMTP id i4mr207406vsm.143.1578419184864; Tue, 07 Jan 2020 09:46:24 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200107143114.GC14229@ubuntu-dmitri> <20200107155627.GF14229@ubuntu-dmitri> In-Reply-To: <20200107155627.GF14229@ubuntu-dmitri> From: Lucas Pardue Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 17:46:13 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Add extension work to Interop matrix To: Lucas Pardue , IETF QUIC WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d2122c059b905aaa" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2020 17:46:27 -0000 --000000000000d2122c059b905aaa Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Jan 7, 2020 at 3:56 PM Dmitri Tikhonov wrote: > I did not state that we should exclude any extensions. I believe > the list above is exhaustive. If not, I am all for adding to it. > A salient view of QUIC-related I-Ds is at https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/quic/documents/ which is 19 documents strong, albeit some do not relate to specific implementation work e.g. use cases. No doubt there are others not accounted for on that page. The recent email threads related to the topic "Re-chartering for extension work" [1] show there are a lot of people that want to discuss a range of topics. > > We're at 19 "codes" right now, and not many implementations satisfy them > > all. I'd like to find a solution that is more sustainable in the longer > > term that can support extensions along with QUIC v2 or whatever comes > next. > > The good thing about the current form of the Interop matrix is that > it is easy to start a new sheet and that older matrices become useless > rapidly. The English alphabet has 26 letters, so we are using > 19 / (26 * 2 + 10) = 31% of all easily readable code available to us. > Going up to 23 codes (37%) is not a big deal. I don't expect us to > run out. Even if we do, we can always do something new with the > next version of the matrix. > > (I considered proposing E1, E2, or Eq, Eg, but one-letter codes are > simpler and fit with the current model.) > > > I don't know what that looks like but I'd take some inspiration from > things > > like the QUIC Network Simulator interop runner and Web Platform Tests ( > > https://wpt.fyi/results/?label=experimental&label=master&aligned). > > My proposal is just to capture extension work in a simple, low entry > cost, manner. I am not willing to commit to create a framework such > as to which you refer above. > I think the simple approach will scale poorly given the active discussion about QUIC extensibility. There are three aspects to consider: what to test and how to test it, where to capture results, and how to represent results. Today we achieve that with "Implementation drafts" and the interop matrix. Your proposal addresses the second and third aspects. To address the first one, we could brake it into a set of questions: 1) Should QUIC adopted extensions be in scope for the next interop? * Datagram and Version Negotiation are in calls for adoption ending on January 15. 2) Should QUIC non-adopted extensions be in scope for the next interop? * If so, which ones? 3) Who is willing to help define or review interoperability tests for the above? 4) Who is interested in testing during the interop event? 5) Is it important to record the results? * If so, where? The answers to these questions then help to decide if testing is incorporated into an implementation draft and the results included in the Interop matrix. Personally, I have interest in interop testing of Datagram. I don't think it needs to be included in the implementation draft nor the interop matrix but capturing the results in some other location might be interesting. Cheers Lucas --000000000000d2122c059b905aaa Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, Jan 7, 2020 at 3:56 PM Dmitri= Tikhonov <dtikhonov@lite= speedtech.com> wrote:
I did not state that we should exclude any extensions.=C2=A0 I believe
the list above is exhaustive.=C2=A0 If not, I am all for adding to it.
<= /blockquote>

A salient view of QUIC-related I-Ds is at <= a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/quic/documents/">https://datatrac= ker.ietf.org/wg/quic/documents/ which is 19 documents strong, albeit so= me do not relate to specific implementation work e.g. use cases. No doubt t= here are others not accounted for on that page.

The recent email threads related to the topic "Re-chartering for ext= ension work" [1] show there are a lot of people that want to discuss a= range of topics.


> We're at 19 "codes" right now, and not many implementati= ons satisfy them
> all. I'd like to find a solution that is more sustainable in the l= onger
> term that can support extensions along with QUIC v2 or whatever comes = next.

The good thing about the current form of the Interop matrix is that
it is easy to start a new sheet and that older matrices become useless
rapidly.=C2=A0 The English alphabet has 26 letters, so we are using
19 / (26 * 2 + 10) =3D 31% of all easily readable code available to us.
Going up to 23 codes (37%) is not a big deal.=C2=A0 I don't expect us t= o
run out.=C2=A0 Even if we do, we can always do something new with the
next version of the matrix.

(I considered proposing E1, E2, or Eq, Eg, but one-letter codes are
simpler and fit with the current model.)

> I don't know what that looks like but I'd take some inspiratio= n from things
> like the QUIC Network Simulator interop runner and Web Platform Tests = (
> https://wpt.fyi/res= ults/?label=3Dexperimental&label=3Dmaster&aligned).

My proposal is just to capture extension work in a simple, low entry
cost, manner.=C2=A0 I am not willing to commit to create a framework such as to which you refer above.

I think th= e simple approach will scale poorly given the active discussion about QUIC = extensibility. There are three aspects to consider: what to test and how to= test it, where to capture results, and how to represent results. Today we = achieve that with "Implementation drafts" and the interop matrix.= Your proposal addresses the second and third aspects. To address the first= one, we could brake it into a set of questions:

1) Should QUIC adopted extensions be in scope for the next interop?
=C2=A0 * Datagram and Version Negotiation are in calls for adoption e= nding on January 15.
2) Should QUIC non-adopted extensions be in = scope for the next interop?
=C2=A0 * If so, which ones?
=
3) Who is willing to help define or review interoperability tests for = the above?
4) Who is interested in testing during the interop eve= nt?
5) Is it important to record the results?
=C2=A0 * = If so, where?

The answers to these questions t= hen help to decide if testing is incorporated into an implementation draft = and the results included in the Interop matrix.

Pe= rsonally, I have interest in interop testing of Datagram. I don't think= it needs to be included in the implementation draft nor the interop matrix= but capturing the results in some other location might be interesting.

Cheers
Lucas

=
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prod-mail-ppoint3.akamai.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id 007IHAZR032761; Tue, 7 Jan 2020 13:20:40 -0500 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.165.117]) by prod-mail-ppoint3.akamai.com with ESMTP id 2xapx1pa9d-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 07 Jan 2020 13:20:36 -0500 Received: from USTX2EX-DAG1MB5.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.165.123) by ustx2ex-dag1mb2.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.165.120) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1473.3; Tue, 7 Jan 2020 12:20:21 -0600 Received: from USTX2EX-DAG1MB5.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.165.123]) by ustx2ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.165.123]) with mapi id 15.00.1473.005; Tue, 7 Jan 2020 12:20:21 -0600 From: "Lubashev, Igor" To: Lucas Pardue , IETF QUIC WG Subject: RE: Add extension work to Interop matrix Thread-Topic: Add extension work to Interop matrix Thread-Index: AQHVxWcmFO4FvlorkkiDPV0H6cxhlKfftLwAgAALFICAAB6rgP//nyeg Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 18:20:21 +0000 Message-ID: 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[47.22.54.182]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g52sm310390qta.58.2020.01.07.10.49.14 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 07 Jan 2020 10:49:15 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 13:49:13 -0500 From: Dmitri Tikhonov To: Lucas Pardue Cc: IETF QUIC WG Subject: Re: Add extension work to Interop matrix Message-ID: <20200107184912.GH14229@ubuntu-dmitri> Mail-Followup-To: Lucas Pardue , IETF QUIC WG References: <20200107143114.GC14229@ubuntu-dmitri> <20200107155627.GF14229@ubuntu-dmitri> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2020 18:49:24 -0000 On Tue, Jan 07, 2020 at 05:46:13PM +0000, Lucas Pardue wrote: > On Tue, Jan 7, 2020 at 3:56 PM Dmitri Tikhonov > wrote: > > > > The good thing about the current form of the Interop matrix is that > > it is easy to start a new sheet and that older matrices become useless > --- 8< --- SNIP --- 8< --- > > I think the simple approach will scale poorly given the active discussion > about QUIC extensibility. I get the feeling we are talking past each other. Do you not acknowledge the evanescent nature of the Interop matrix? You want to impose artificial strictures on the way the Interop results are recorded because it may scale poorly, but this argument is invalid: To "scale," we can simply choose to do record things differently for the next Interop. - Dmitri. From nobody Tue Jan 7 10:52:03 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE07112010E for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2020 10:52:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.748 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.748 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yHsFrHn_fgNZ for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2020 10:52:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ua1-x930.google.com (mail-ua1-x930.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::930]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 95252120169 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2020 10:52:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ua1-x930.google.com with SMTP id 1so126526uao.1 for ; Tue, 07 Jan 2020 10:52:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=CAgEsyghJWcllU1MaCitjYVW+hfGAgo2haZ+IRjdtdI=; b=EghySdBEX+LPdkTB1ca+ZZ/phjshiCgpLpbcBlvjnrIb0GbAxI6QAeAG0GK/vR0Iru 2iug0J7XyWgA61i6wC3LDpoG4ksIEmY9t4eUvjSUqVZ0UWGgHhuEnG+ICl61/FUE9HqT uyfmQvusXPgI1YPYc6539s59Wd0qmQr3KKVCbznNc307leqQbEdGJLtHupDDwHdznZCJ zoVfQfBz/KjuKVU9KcieOP0FCmiD3qLi9kbTnw7MZrbTCUJRheZ/pMeABb6/pH7woivx dozOAGo/ZmNkYH/NSh+Z6qumLEyhZtIim7JXn0nJpcEyokyOb3Zz6LTQnDkl0qiFCMyw buuQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=CAgEsyghJWcllU1MaCitjYVW+hfGAgo2haZ+IRjdtdI=; b=HjBxoFQ/682dWNfiQC74OiW9Z5ng31pcuU23umVq2D4t2nTDBMPVxZaHFQBHg9B4lp 9nNp/8RZNd8XlJsW6yLXZiUJwo3lHQDN0BaNQsRvr10qAJ8+XEeHuqN5XI6gpCFrtUvI UHi3naUnK5LqyVXy3tMepR6YIlr8FJAOSgNMlNmfkYsWs850JMZO2JvxPP9iLxVPdvBd Qbp0EN71MbAj6Ogp95zOcdbNxtC/qtUxKWgqrG0eIyEWRDfMaRx+eDFzJlOnu1Hg7wjH 0Hu7sKZGbPY6CpjdJqplLzIXYW3Fyjyo8OOBf39+gOLZbuCEBm9q8uaKV1Yz/9P7vnOO /5bQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVPyiTuuIdGrr/DQhEpH0Q//ltdyY0kDNRZL1wgFuwrL1p+kRxi n+1d1OnF+AuO5gR01//TfLafwenjX50iz9o5Pps= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzUPl3maQIo6sXnND2eh67rZvwvwpqP7FRUeF46FlghciIvovRp2Pxye9nbIjYgR2nA1UeL3eDrirVfGv9cKhw= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:3415:: with SMTP id z21mr605894uap.9.1578423120612; Tue, 07 Jan 2020 10:52:00 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200107143114.GC14229@ubuntu-dmitri> <20200107155627.GF14229@ubuntu-dmitri> In-Reply-To: From: Lucas Pardue Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 18:51:48 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Add extension work to Interop matrix To: "Lubashev, Igor" Cc: IETF QUIC WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000068d160059b9145d0" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2020 18:52:03 -0000 --00000000000068d160059b9145d0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jan 7, 2020 at 6:20 PM Lubashev, Igor wrote: > An interop is not an IETF event, so its =E2=80=9Cscope and agenda=E2=80= =9D is whatever the > people who show up want to work on. If more than one implementation is > interested in implementing an extension, it seems simple to designate a > letter and have them go at it. We=E2=80=99ll not run out of letters (60+ > case-sensitive alphanumerics). > That's a fair point. I wasn't suggesting it was the IETF's role to make such decisions but the ones involved in populating and consuming the matrix should probably have some framework for discussion how to use it. To date things have grown a bit organically, with safety rails of a constrained charter scope and many implementations focusing on the same super-set of core protocol features. I'm not so concerned about the availability of codes/letters but the managability of the the interop matrix as a shared resource. Why is it important to capture the results of such extension interop in this one resource? Are all extensions equal? To me it would be just as useful to record such results in standalone documents, its slightly more work for those testing extensions but reduces the cognitive overload of those consuming the presented information for core protocol features. Cheers Lucas --00000000000068d160059b9145d0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, Jan 7, 2020 at 6:20 PM Lubash= ev, Igor <ilubashe@akamai.com= > wrote:

An interop is not an IETF event, so its =E2=80=9Csco= pe and agenda=E2=80=9D is whatever the people who show up want to work on.= =C2=A0 =C2=A0If more than one implementation is interested in implementing = an extension, it seems simple to designate a letter and have them go at it.=C2=A0 We=E2=80=99ll not run out of letters (60+ case-sensit= ive alphanumerics).


<= div>That's a fair point. I wasn't suggesting it was the IETF's = role to make such decisions but the ones involved in populating and consumi= ng the matrix should probably have some framework for discussion how to use= it. To date things have grown a bit organically, with safety rails of a co= nstrained charter scope and many implementations focusing on the same super= -set of core protocol features.

I'm not s= o concerned about the availability of codes/letters but the managability of= the the interop matrix as a shared resource. Why is it important to captur= e the results of such extension interop in this one resource? Are all exten= sions equal? To me it would be just as useful to record such results in sta= ndalone documents, its slightly more work for those testing extensions but = reduces the cognitive overload of those consuming the presented information= for core protocol features.

Cheers
= Lucas


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prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFIRX8gBCAC26usy/Ya38IqaLBSu33vKD6hP5Yw390XsWLaAZTeQR64OJEkoOdXpvcOS HWfMIlD5s5+oHfLe8jjmErFAXYJ8yytPj1fD2OdSKAe1TccUBiOXT8wdVxSr5d0alExVv/LO I/vA2aU1TwOkVHKSapD7j8/HZBrqIWRrXUSj2f5n9tY2nJzG9KRzSG0giaJWBfUFiGb4lvsy IaCaIU0YpfkDDk6PtK5YYzuCeF0B+O7N9LhDu/foUUc4MNq4K3EKDPb2FL1Hrv0XHpkXeMRZ olpH8SUFUJbmi+zYRuUgcXgMZRmZFL1tu6z9h6gY4/KPyF9aYot6zG28Qk/BFQRtj7V1ABEB AAG0J0NocmlzdGlhbiBIdWl0ZW1hIDxodWl0ZW1hQGh1aXRlbWEubmV0PokBOQQTAQIAIwUC UhFfyAIbLwcLCQgHAwIBBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJEJNDCbJVyA1yhbYH/1ud6x6m VqGIp0JcZUfSQO8w+TjugqxCyGNn+w/6Qb5O/xENxNQ4HaMQ5uSRK9n8WKKDDRSzwZ4syKKf wbkfj05vgFxrjCynVbm1zs2X2aGXh+PxPL/WHUaxzEP7KjYbLtCUZDRzOOrm+0LMktngT/k3 6+EZoLEM52hwwpIAzJoscyEz7QfqMOZtFm6xQnlvDQeIrHx0KUvwo/vgDLK3SuruG1CSHcR0 D24kEEUa044AIUKBS3b0b8AR7f6mP2NcnLpdsibtpabi9BzqAidcY/EjTaoea46HXALk/eJd 6OLkLE6UQe1PPzQC4jB7rErX2BxnSkHDw50xMgLRcl5/b1a5AQ0EUhFfyAEIAKp7Cp8lqKTV CC9QiAf6QTIjW+lie5J44Ad++0k8gRgANZVWubQuCQ71gxDWLtxYfFkEXjG4TXV/MUtnOliG 5rc2E+ih6Dg61Y5PQakm9OwPIsOx+2R+iSW325ngln2UQrVPgloO83QiUoi7mBJPbcHlxkhZ bd3+EjFxSLIQogt29sTcg2oSh4oljUpz5niTt69IOfZx21kf29NfDE+Iw56gfrxI2ywZbu5o G+d0ZSp0lsovygpk4jK04fDTq0vxjEU5HjPcsXC4CSZdq5E2DrF4nOh1UHkHzeaXdYR2Bn1Y wTePfaHBFlvQzI+Li/Q6AD/uxbTM0vIcsUxrv3MNHCUAEQEAAYkCPgQYAQIACQUCUhFfyAIb LgEpCRCTQwmyVcgNcsBdIAQZAQIABgUCUhFfyAAKCRC22tOSFDh1UOlBB/94RsCJepNvmi/c YiNmMnm0mKb6vjv43OsHkqrrCqJSfo95KHyl5Up4JEp8tiJMyYT2mp4IsirZHxz/5lqkw9Az tcGAF3GlFsj++xTyD07DXlNeddwTKlqPRi/b8sppjtWur6Pm+wnAHp0mQ7GidhxHccFCl65w uT7S/ocb1MjrTgnAMiz+x87d48n1UJ7yIdI41Wpg2XFZiA9xPBiDuuoPwFj14/nK0elV5Dvq 4/HVgfurb4+fd74PV/CC/dmd7hg0ZRlgnB5rFUcFO7ywb7/TvICIIaLWcI42OJDSZjZ/MAzz BeXm263lHh+kFxkh2LxEHnQGHCHGpTYyi4Z3dv03HtkH/1SI8joQMQq00Bv+RdEbJXfEExrT u4gtdZAihwvy97OPA2nCdTAHm/phkzryMeOaOztI4PS8u2Ce5lUB6P/HcGtK/038KdX5MYST Fn8KUDt4o29bkv0CUXwDzS3oTzPNtGdryBkRMc9b+yn9+AdwFEH4auhiTQXPMnl0+G3nhKr7 jvzVFJCRif3OAhEm4vmBNDE3uuaXFQnbK56GJrnqVN+KX5Z3M7X3fA8UcVCGOEHXRP/aubiw Ngawj0V9x+43kUapFp+nF69R53UI65YtJ95ec4PTO/Edvap8h1UbdEOc4+TiYwY1TBuIKltY 1cnrjgAWUh/Ucvr++/KbD9tD6C8= Subject: ALPN negotiation (was Re: Add extension work to Interop matrix) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 09:06:49 -1000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200107143114.GC14229@ubuntu-dmitri> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US X-Originating-IP: 66.113.196.82 X-Spampanel-Domain: xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Username: 66.113.196.82/32 Authentication-Results: antispamcloud.com; auth=pass smtp.auth=66.113.196.82/32@xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Class: unsure X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.15) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: Mvzo4OR0dZXEDF/gcnlw0c2Pj46HODYmpAMVAv0J1pOpSDasLI4SayDByyq9LIhVUZbR67CQ7/vm /hHDJU4RXkTNWdUk1Ol2OGx3IfrIJKywOmJyM1qr8uRnWBrbSAGDcnqpk5VeF3xR4kF6iVwRtbgN zB/4Jkrw1eDLcif59ftovGW5CQotOKPZu+kW5Mg5U7Tmz6iKnkQL9gqsxD347235Nhqq+/HvroPq 8GSPg+5aB4itzNZ07CdqP+KMfGjQ1aOsarGPChhedL2Py5oHk46jSvfpO+1kZkomjtjB6X5Q5Q9f RUeIpTIC2ySfqvnqLwoxlgatmaBb0rBiK9xbkDrUqzcKIief90MVLZY9LbIZh9+IQ1oS9LBn3VIP 95Jz7ujRlJ9wSMlhvaudJXZ9EIBG/qaR+8r9SKFMmPJLf850OvZYsmoVQuOIhwKLK6IKBNB4LZ0v UHHKTzJX7b1JhLSQQ4vSj0QEim26t/Moy0UPX5E73H1QfrH/5kkrV/Cr0bm2vWdo8usP65i82q1C dZgGrpL44wdx9eXqjQjbvUopOMQJvQ/Ck3iiU+4DQAj3fuQgzT3K9JUHTNiGwfwAm0riDIK/dqde 2nXgzgoJuyoBy9f6KBxo9wHp7B5kzFX+lsOCwqqspfu3Jktl3hSBnhZIlT2D/eRuY67qKJWjdAck 6Q9V9YO5wBS5yaTKclLkiDa/O4zd9QW8Fd7xMgRBhRg66gs5OuzYxJgw5atIxePaw4mGPOB1lCDk b7ANR1sPv6sLOqER2q+WwMhS2RsW5NQ84QG89JN6MvpNdzLqW7o3nagFnJbfrf+Rdb1NBqYBHHAS JNUmoOHSoqgqxfHmWfZIwxxhwvMcWh0MGcvUtQhhQjA6/pxLQaYVtPHMCWn51vEjHyvS2QZiR+AZ YvfxEvZFKu+ZM2mB1CpThxyaBpbeNHk15VolAGHS5rCXQKDyCQUljhSWDhWh87HBSLhNUo4qiB0X MVQG2R7iUfOzATaF5R3hQJk8CwyURYKQ0Ye0iR3bHfnMCIEU+nrglojKwJanfcoq9IsR6l/OZb9V MEM= X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@quarantine11.antispamcloud.com Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2020 19:07:15 -0000 On 1/7/2020 4:31 AM, Dmitri Tikhonov wrote: > Hello, > > There are now a few extensions that have been proposed and implemented.= > We should add them to the next Interop matrix. I suggest using the > following codes: > > g Datagram extension > r HTTP priorities extension > q Loss bits extension ('l' looks too much like '1') > 1 One-way delay extension > > 'g' and 'r' can be added to the third row, while 'q' and '1' can be > added to the second row (dropping the "use uppercase letters only" > requirement). Looking at https://interop.seemann.io/, it seems that the worst interop problem so far is the H09/H3 split. Of the 7 implementations listed there, we see 2 that do not support H3 and at least one that does not support H09. Most of the failures in the "measurement" matrix are related: clients and servers are programmed to request or serve only H09, and fail if the peer does not support it. But some propose a list of supported ALPN and the ALPN negotiation succeeds. It seems that ALPN negotiation is going to be a practical requirement going forward. Not so much for negotiating H09 versus H3, we can expect H09 to fade away at some point. But we will have to negotiate h3-24 vs h3-25 and similar transitions for a good bit of time, and then we will probably move to h4-00, h4-01, etc. So maybe we should start testing that= =2E -- Christian Huitema From nobody Tue Jan 7 11:18:24 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A7B11200C7 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2020 11:18:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.748 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.748 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a58Z_23tpntL for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2020 11:18:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vs1-xe2a.google.com (mail-vs1-xe2a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8278012025D for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2020 11:18:21 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-vs1-xe2a.google.com with SMTP id f8so228025vsq.8 for ; Tue, 07 Jan 2020 11:18:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=D3B3TvCegk4Tt1ogZ+ewpEOVxcaJTnnsj5pJtxZ5/fY=; b=EIbXC1EpkUT3L8l71GJ5DYli7ZfYlqNU/Y9sSXuX1zVPu64PNy+xTRsCSalWbtdx7Y oPWaQ7XrT3D/0Ca5rIulfZQHXx7UeMZP23+Q8mSmtXPJVJaU1JfyWVkZhij23tVhbyrp UcVDGmVB30u/vTXQgs7cjsaRnh2n/kCwk991sg58vhROmouLeyZ3Iq0Mb8n39zx+7UUb jnlD1y+jgl/edxGoThjeDWa0lPsMhsjQ175JWdqFwPUt+pyDAy/rKtKgwRP5bTKIDM0l NCQGTqV5I3BCAVEZv2ChkHLjufbZKFCFAL09AIvqVF6qxx6/OzCqLqvSB9FJD0dcqBVs ScJQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=D3B3TvCegk4Tt1ogZ+ewpEOVxcaJTnnsj5pJtxZ5/fY=; b=JmL5qC7UCFuK/oyqUNbXgfj7+C5wUrwxsC94gie6q6QHw82++sSTgz5fDQ1Lfi6/+X LBHm9sl3TVMApA5551XeKTB0QtBQbxve+xwJpioVvsNuhmWjZOsPjj29qBpynQeGIKxY dJP53CWgD7bA0Yd95WL7gZxj5U2q4s6A9Ds0nBVt1vgajMRo2G7n/mdGhyR5otHqw3Oo 0jEP9x1q9VkuSHkeBr/EQuLfg6KE9SMqWGb546pXfInEfDCLMLNIPFflJkJLhmNymeAZ t9etvEiAdMIpzxjtiyi4Z5DiE1uSaF01kNtB+9eLX6Vlz852tPv9WgLED6f8OmbQ99ea T90w== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXG8OEbSTIPejD2l1LfbsrOqa5PD3o2Dc6UJbiOQSrpGljgsnUH /QanG+SXlqoXj1l1pizg0ZcxRZPSFYNLWyg3bdK2NY9s X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwTK3qdAUeA8xehOM6oLpVpALl4zmk9rUFCr0WPLvHcnJBg893ZWneaQU71GxS18RJ7cAQVyHgsDFwlcDlhTtU= X-Received: by 2002:a67:fd17:: with SMTP id f23mr562212vsr.100.1578424700598; Tue, 07 Jan 2020 11:18:20 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200107143114.GC14229@ubuntu-dmitri> <20200107155627.GF14229@ubuntu-dmitri> <20200107184912.GH14229@ubuntu-dmitri> In-Reply-To: <20200107184912.GH14229@ubuntu-dmitri> From: Lucas Pardue Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 19:18:09 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Add extension work to Interop matrix To: Lucas Pardue , IETF QUIC WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000957afd059b91a38d" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2020 19:18:22 -0000 --000000000000957afd059b91a38d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Jan 7, 2020 at 6:49 PM Dmitri Tikhonov wrote: > > I get the feeling we are talking past each other. Do you not > acknowledge the evanescent nature of the Interop matrix > You want to impose artificial strictures on the way the Interop > results are recorded because it may scale poorly, but this argument > is invalid: To "scale," we can simply choose to do record things > differently for the next Interop. > The standardisation process is iterative but to date we've followed a fairly rudimentary pattern where each incarnation of the matrix relates to a specific implementation draft, which in turn relates to some set of versioned drafts. The proposal changes the pattern to now consider extensions. Across the sheets we have little evidence of burning or substituted letters, so its not clear how people would read into such a occurrence. The scaling problem is not invalid. Parsing the interop matrix, even in its current form, is not user-friendly, especially for those not actively engaged in the process. We all share the matrix. Adding letters might help you but it doesn't help me. Lucas > - Dmitri. > --000000000000957afd059b91a38d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, Jan 7, 2020 at 6:49 PM Dmitri= Tikhonov <dtikhonov@lite= speedtech.com> wrote:

I get the feeling we are talking past each other.=C2=A0 Do you not
acknowledge the evanescent nature of the Interop matrix

You want to impose artificial strictures on the way the Interop
results are recorded because it may scale poorly, but this argument
is invalid:=C2=A0 To "scale," we can simply choose to do record t= hings
differently for the next Interop.

The s= tandardisation process is iterative but to date we've followed a fairly= rudimentary pattern where each incarnation of the matrix relates to a spec= ific implementation draft, which in turn relates to some set of versioned d= rafts. The proposal changes the pattern to now consider extensions. Across = the sheets we have little evidence of burning or substituted letters, so it= s not clear how people would read into such a occurrence.

The scaling problem is not invalid. Parsing the interop matrix, eve= n in its current form, is not user-friendly, especially for those not activ= ely engaged in the process.

We all share the = matrix. Adding letters might help you but it doesn't help me.

Lucas


=C2=A0 - Dmitri.
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[47.22.54.182]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 201sm301544qkf.10.2020.01.07.11.45.45 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 07 Jan 2020 11:45:46 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 14:45:44 -0500 From: Dmitri Tikhonov To: Christian Huitema Cc: IETF QUIC WG Subject: Re: ALPN negotiation (was Re: Add extension work to Interop matrix) Message-ID: <20200107194543.GK14229@ubuntu-dmitri> Mail-Followup-To: Christian Huitema , IETF QUIC WG References: <20200107143114.GC14229@ubuntu-dmitri> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2020 19:45:49 -0000 On Tue, Jan 07, 2020 at 09:06:49AM -1000, Christian Huitema wrote: > It seems that ALPN negotiation is going to be a practical requirement > going forward. Not so much for negotiating H09 versus H3, we can expect > H09 to fade away at some point. But we will have to negotiate h3-24 vs > h3-25 and similar transitions for a good bit of time, and then we will > probably move to h4-00, h4-01, etc. So maybe we should start testing that. I would be for it. Is the testing as simple as 1. Client sends (h3-X, h3-Y), server responds with h3-X; and 2. Client sends (h3-Y, h3-X), server responds with h3-Y? Of course, this assumes that the server support both h3-X and h3-Y. For example, supporting drafts 23 and 24 at the same time was easy; 24 and 25 might not be as easy. - Dmitri. 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Tue, 7 Jan 2020 19:49:52 +0000 From: Andrei Popov To: Dmitri Tikhonov , Christian Huitema CC: IETF QUIC WG Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: ALPN negotiation (was Re: Add extension work to Interop matrix) Thread-Topic: [EXTERNAL] Re: ALPN negotiation (was Re: Add extension work to Interop matrix) Thread-Index: AQHVxZMYj/ulOh4bgUu9aP7vAYeIGaffm4Lw Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 19:49:52 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20200107143114.GC14229@ubuntu-dmitri> <20200107194543.GK14229@ubuntu-dmitri> In-Reply-To: <20200107194543.GK14229@ubuntu-dmitri> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: msip_labels: MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_ActionId=bd9d9c1c-23b4-4178-a2af-0000b7582a5f; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_ContentBits=0; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Enabled=true; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Method=Standard; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Name=Internal; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_SetDate=2020-01-07T19:47:45Z; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 159e29c1-06af-4dbe-fd1d-08d793aac339 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 07 Jan 2020 19:49:52.3376 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: AQQD5wXSfI0Fj5OQrTcmSesNSmT2AqDGApZA006cCV29pxosWURBnZ4RScrr17Jn5iTvYimUfbpiKK34+GHKjg== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN8PR00MB0468 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2020 19:49:56 -0000 > 1. Client sends (h3-X, h3-Y), server responds with h3-X; and > 2. Client sends (h3-Y, h3-X), server responds with h3-Y? Not necessarily. The server will likely choose an ALPN ID based on the serv= er's application protocol preferences, rather than the client's. Cheers, Andrei -----Original Message----- From: QUIC On Behalf Of Dmitri Tikhonov Sent: Tuesday, January 7, 2020 11:46 AM To: Christian Huitema Cc: IETF QUIC WG Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: ALPN negotiation (was Re: Add extension work to Int= erop matrix) On Tue, Jan 07, 2020 at 09:06:49AM -1000, Christian Huitema wrote: > It seems that ALPN negotiation is going to be a practical requirement=20 > going forward. Not so much for negotiating H09 versus H3, we can=20 > expect > H09 to fade away at some point. But we will have to negotiate h3-24 vs > h3-25 and similar transitions for a good bit of time, and then we will=20 > probably move to h4-00, h4-01, etc. So maybe we should start testing that= . I would be for it. Is the testing as simple as 1. Client sends (h3-X, h3-Y), server responds with h3-X; and 2. Client sends (h3-Y, h3-X), server responds with h3-Y? Of course, this assumes that the server support both h3-X and h3-Y. For example, supporting drafts 23 and 24 at the same time was easy; 24 and 25 might not be as easy. - Dmitri. From nobody Tue Jan 7 11:52:13 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBFAA12085A for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2020 11:52:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.748 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.748 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HddG_4aL9c0R for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2020 11:52:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ua1-x936.google.com (mail-ua1-x936.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::936]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 62793120251 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2020 11:52:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ua1-x936.google.com with SMTP id o42so178255uad.10 for ; Tue, 07 Jan 2020 11:52:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=f2Cx0tRbJEc72k3DTBWhxrb+D1DfdFOt+RlXjbQm3Vk=; b=hCpAj9rz6tSPv2K9Hc2vyKjN3pro+tbmEkRLVcpM2mfCOtd62d3QH6TgbHVwqo5xhv 8/PE0Z0veklISb8UI8cbwdF+EycNDcHxU22fNviGWZvgC2Y7dvoLFG5aIvAFlCIbBK8k /s8VG4pRL+4yVdHYrv/UHhQVaynoyq6dI9GiAG+Ik6/0oTyDF7yFIpDWFM8d8plrijzT MrOcgAfsQTEnLU1xFXL1Qkz6ThXPP+5n5cLspk8DFjJc0WLfTIIBIWLCCv4j3rfcOMD1 tyQob+gcWTFiTSAFwFAivAP1+hhNj3u+5tvFNC/ezeE+nbLo2d4mG98MBS830lQTcg4S E2Vw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=f2Cx0tRbJEc72k3DTBWhxrb+D1DfdFOt+RlXjbQm3Vk=; b=MhzqkxkDs0iNlHSEkAfCVMmhKakaS6lAOY9fbmhqkJBUDYAIwIocjJWPaliciLUrWT FQVPdt4id07oyWxfPnXpY7gOVdbXJtzOr+tA/2Nqq2zy254U8sBXZFbANQT0d/FSZamz c3sazU5p+M7jIL/DqV9cRrDVm0uHmHmgHodQ7WLt7zaro1JkX2Q6Z4Pq0wNAywt9U3f9 V0U5m8FNkDpzX16Shjup5KcvU7vhqtbcAs9sLF6IfmDFfT45xuTKx1FIKBi9WxL54Dl8 hZqwLSeMfr5u3OxEQmHFW0ae8qmH7asymZzpNmWNrDbEVxx5ZBvHygJcuDumfZFK4Lt5 5lkg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVLAWBgPtcc2aHbNkg3aEh3A1GhYfHBGQjK3kJYURHPvFCIrsPa vOegw4uxUyjHJx/eY2+lndxu9TT0gJ7jY2mHrRTTiw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzcaWIl3AKq6KzuzYfTKqmSCfOmyFSaytP+IkNgA6cbl0iIzZ+S0s7JdNLfrK412lCHUnulOBE4DywKe+rgArk= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:280c:: with SMTP id w12mr765586uap.79.1578426725384; Tue, 07 Jan 2020 11:52:05 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200107143114.GC14229@ubuntu-dmitri> <20200107194543.GK14229@ubuntu-dmitri> In-Reply-To: <20200107194543.GK14229@ubuntu-dmitri> From: Lucas Pardue Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 19:51:54 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: ALPN negotiation (was Re: Add extension work to Interop matrix) To: Christian Huitema , IETF QUIC WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004548f7059b921c3e" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2020 19:52:11 -0000 --0000000000004548f7059b921c3e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Probably a good idea. IIUC I think you could solve the multi- version problem by creating two (or more) aliases for each version of the same protocol. This means testing of ALPN ordering but implementations don't need to support protocol level changes. The upshot is that this could also be used for Alt-Svc testing. Lucas On Tue, 7 Jan 2020, 19:45 Dmitri Tikhonov, wrote: > On Tue, Jan 07, 2020 at 09:06:49AM -1000, Christian Huitema wrote: > > It seems that ALPN negotiation is going to be a practical requirement > > going forward. Not so much for negotiating H09 versus H3, we can expect > > H09 to fade away at some point. But we will have to negotiate h3-24 vs > > h3-25 and similar transitions for a good bit of time, and then we will > > probably move to h4-00, h4-01, etc. So maybe we should start testing > that. > > I would be for it. Is the testing as simple as > > 1. Client sends (h3-X, h3-Y), server responds with h3-X; and > 2. Client sends (h3-Y, h3-X), server responds with h3-Y? > > Of course, this assumes that the server support both h3-X and h3-Y. > For example, supporting drafts 23 and 24 at the same time was easy; > 24 and 25 might not be as easy. > > - Dmitri. > > --0000000000004548f7059b921c3e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Probably a good idea.=C2=A0

IIUC I think you could solve the multi- version problem by = creating two (or more) aliases for each version of the same protocol. This = means testing of ALPN ordering but implementations don't need to suppor= t protocol level changes.

The upshot is that this could also be used for Alt-Svc testing.=C2=A0

Lucas

On Tue, 7 Jan 20= 20, 19:45 Dmitri Tikhonov, <dtikhonov@litespeedtech.com> wrote:
On Tue, Jan 07, 2020 at 09:06:49AM -1000, Christian Huitema wrot= e:
> It seems that ALPN negotiation is going to be a practical requirement<= br> > going forward. Not so much for negotiating H09 versus H3, we can expec= t
> H09 to fade away at some point. But we will have to negotiate h3-24 vs=
> h3-25 and similar transitions for a good bit of time, and then we will=
> probably move to h4-00, h4-01, etc. So maybe we should start testing t= hat.

I would be for it.=C2=A0 Is the testing as simple as

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 1. Client sends (h3-X, h3-Y), server responds with h3-X; and<= br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2. Client sends (h3-Y, h3-X), server responds with h3-Y?

Of course, this assumes that the server support both h3-X and h3-Y.
For example, supporting drafts 23 and 24 at the same time was easy;
24 and 25 might not be as easy.

=C2=A0 - Dmitri.

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<20200107143114.GC14229@ubuntu-dmitri> <20200107155627.GF14229@ubuntu-dmitri> <20200107184912.GH14229@ubuntu-dmitri> <8a6f9655780d4d4ba276d42ea36b645f@ustx2ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com> In-Reply-To: <8a6f9655780d4d4ba276d42ea36b645f@ustx2ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com> From: Lucas Pardue Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 23:27:46 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Add extension work to Interop matrix To: "Lubashev, Igor" Cc: IETF QUIC WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003c1f00059b952010" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2020 23:27:59 -0000 --0000000000003c1f00059b952010 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 7 Jan 2020, 22:43 Lubashev, Igor, wrote: > Lucas, I think you are worried that letters were used to identify require= d > features of QUIC V1, and adding optional =E2=80=9Cextension=E2=80=9D lett= ers to the mix > would cause confusion. Is that correct? > Yes my main concern is avoiding overloading things. > A single matrix with letters proved to be an effective way to summarize > and report on the interop, so it is pretty clear why people interested in > implementing extensions want to record their progress in this way. Would > it make more sense to you if there was a clear separation of QUIC V1 > feature interop from Extension interop results? Like two matrices: =E2= =80=9CQUIC > V1=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CExtensions=E2=80=9D? > I think this is a good articulation of the benefit. Adding non WG extensions to the matrix makes reporting on interop during the QUIC sessions clunky. IMO separating out V1 from other stuff is useful. Whether that's a single matrix for all extensions or a collection of them is something that can be worked through. I am supportive of extension work and now seems like a good time to distill what worked well and create some patterns to help and empower people, rather than have them reinvent or feel restricted. Extensions vary in their complexity, so it's hard to predict what letters would be useful to articulate each features and interop tests. Just considering DATAGRAM, this immediately gets complicated with the nuance of HTTP/3 datagram. I can think of several useful tests in this domain. We made some interop headway in Singapore, it would be nice to have a record of that. Cheers Lucas > --0000000000003c1f00059b952010 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Tue, 7 Jan 2020, 22:43 Lubashev, Igor, <ilubashe@akamai.com> wrote:

Lucas, I think you are worried that letters were use= d to identify required features of QUIC V1, and adding optional =E2=80=9Cex= tension=E2=80=9D letters to the mix would cause confusion.=C2=A0 Is that co= rrect?


=
Yes my main concern is avoiding overloading things.=C2=A0=

=C2=A0A single matrix with letters proved to = be an effective way to summarize and report on the interop, so it is pretty= clear why people interested in implementing extensions want to record thei= r progress in this way.=C2=A0 Would it make more sense to you if there was a clear separation of QUIC V1 feature interop from Ext= ension interop results?=C2=A0 Like two matrices: =E2=80=9CQUIC V1=E2=80=9D = and =E2=80=9CExtensions=E2=80=9D?

<= div dir=3D"auto">I think this is a good articulation of the benefit. Adding= non WG extensions to the matrix makes reporting on interop during the QUIC= sessions clunky.=C2=A0

= IMO separating out V1 from other stuff is useful. Whether that's a sing= le matrix for all extensions or a collection of them is something that can = be worked through.=C2=A0

I am supportive of extension work and now seems like a good time to distil= l what worked well and create some patterns to help and empower people, rat= her than have them reinvent or feel restricted.=C2=A0

Extensions vary in their complexity, so it= 9;s hard to predict what letters would be useful to articulate each feature= s and interop tests. Just considering DATAGRAM, this immediately gets compl= icated with the nuance of HTTP/3 datagram. I can think of several useful te= sts in this domain. We made some interop headway in Singapore, it would be = nice to have a record of that.

Cheers
Lucas
--0000000000003c1f00059b952010-- From nobody Tue Jan 7 16:08:35 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72E9112004F for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2020 16:08:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TFI0VwIJJF7V for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2020 16:08:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vs1-xe2b.google.com (mail-vs1-xe2b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e2b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CA64A120025 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2020 16:08:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-vs1-xe2b.google.com with SMTP id f8so730448vsq.8 for ; Tue, 07 Jan 2020 16:08:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=33/Fo+0eIQbdiUhYp5YooeXaoGZsxdze8yhgG9koUw0=; b=ttYsbM+qtB8+tAeCUfDFh9M3/KASghBfFm1EHU8xKf0ORrEUKKdOE3Ernl1jRtmFzD aL8pyg6CyLocqrgipSQpZKFKNiQMRIHuem5zjxdo4BaP+Exdkim9P1qcJa3PUbTgoDKq /i3/eEztey6G//oA32vFGiJpU9uf5ektjOdYWWk5ciDZxjMHZDPmc71rJ0U+aWoylez9 BEh4NTSRw5XVQYSG+qVf9xSOix7fZL4u+R8BEgr6LPyviVgUICU1T6lHMEOyAq6t4IaV 0s+O8oAPgIWrnIiv1VI+d3Z/dXThHwW+6rpbOgI8NmYbDDdvX/CtyMomdJ4FHufFvKdv rR2Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=33/Fo+0eIQbdiUhYp5YooeXaoGZsxdze8yhgG9koUw0=; b=Si7JO+uqj9rntIN9YYaplD8WcueEs9FGP3/W1rcpeDWKhHv19LkfJXpSR96GX/yLAJ axHEBS7hFROdurHEFe2WcXz8zP1GZFa8mbLIYQSSB9I/IzhKdcTtWMRuqNa8bb22Lr2b Q4Ui1bPBVWC8I0I5sr5JoG1UMaSZPIpyGr/IcAc68COv40o/KmPY0fcFrutiub6vJBSP +QNFh51QjMtbiJJjjaGTc8ZL6DSRauMtkbeXKuyLatfnM5Nw8BtCyRUjEqDMOGLMCejA sxWmM9EgOLfbAGOiWvMYIk0h47y7NEXzKGj/idZ/lQB5VLjs/51GjVe7IFWNKV7/mPwl XbSA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAX2k6FduAi5zC/DuCOgOcr87gO1A7dH9Dq/cawsVoulZqdXzvcj SmRD9HMbeFUn3DjbRb6eXGq5MEb2FaGcMy71rjwFgT2L X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyZRgdSTUNwsfiMipVu7m0CmWSBjXGwl6O9STrdUkSpxZVCVqT7bV27ij96nhk22GXW0vLFLM3KaxZH8evg4KM= X-Received: by 2002:a67:f1ca:: with SMTP id v10mr1131844vsm.180.1578442111429; Tue, 07 Jan 2020 16:08:31 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Bernard Aboba Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 16:08:20 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Call for Adoption: draft-pauly-quic-datagram To: QUIC WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000059b2a9059b95b162" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2020 00:08:34 -0000 --00000000000059b2a9059b95b162 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I support adoption of this document. Call for Adoption: draft-pauly-quic-datagram Mark Nottingham Wed, 11 December 2019 21:36 UTCShow header This is a Call for Adoption of the following document: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pauly-quic-datagram-05 The Working Group has discussed this document for some time, most recently in Singapore. Please state whether you support adoption of the document by the Working Group, and any additional information that you feel may be helpful. This call will end on 15 January 2020. Regards, -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ --00000000000059b2a9059b95b162 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I support adoption of this document.
<= div>

Call for Adoption: draft-pauly-quic-datagram

Mark Nottin= gham <mnot@mnot.net>=C2= =A0Wed, 11 December 2019 21:36 UTCShow h= eader

This is a Call for Adoption of the follow=
ing document:
  https://tools.ietf.org/html=
/draft-pauly-quic-datagram-05

The Working Group has discussed this document for some time, most recently =
in Singapore.

Please state whether you support adoption of the document by the Working Gr=
oup, and any additional information that you feel may be helpful.

This call will end on 15 January 2020.

Regards,

--
Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/
--00000000000059b2a9059b95b162-- From nobody Tue Jan 7 18:48:21 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 278B1120043 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2020 18:48:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=sn3rd.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RtfcavvSkxx9 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2020 18:48:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x72e.google.com (mail-qk1-x72e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6B65812002E for ; 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Tue, 07 Jan 2020 18:48:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from sn3rd.lan ([75.102.131.34]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 124sm779286qko.11.2020.01.07.18.48.15 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 07 Jan 2020 18:48:16 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Subject: Re: Call for Adoption: draft-duke-quic-load-balancers From: Sean Turner In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 21:48:15 -0500 Cc: IETF QUIC WG , Lars Eggert Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <5414B05B-7A35-4204-857F-2945FD0170F7@sn3rd.com> References: To: Mark Nottingham X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2020 02:48:19 -0000 Piling on late to the game: I support adoption. spt > On Dec 11, 2019, at 16:37, Mark Nottingham wrote: >=20 > This is a Call for Adoption of the following document: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-duke-quic-load-balancers-06 >=20 > The Working Group has discussed this document for some time, most = recently in Singapore. >=20 > Please state whether you support adoption of the document by the = Working Group, and any additional information that you feel may be = helpful. >=20 > This call will end on 15 January 2020. >=20 > Regards, >=20 >=20 > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >=20 From nobody Tue Jan 7 18:49:02 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A97B6120043 for ; 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Tue, 07 Jan 2020 18:48:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from sn3rd.lan ([75.102.131.34]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 124sm779286qko.11.2020.01.07.18.48.57 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 07 Jan 2020 18:48:57 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Subject: Re: Call for Adoption: draft-schinazi-quic-version-negotiation From: Sean Turner In-Reply-To: <080BEA58-D52B-4552-A11C-03D5BFCDFAE3@mnot.net> Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 21:48:57 -0500 Cc: IETF QUIC WG , Lars Eggert Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <162E448E-B301-4DC8-AADA-793D9540BE46@sn3rd.com> References: <080BEA58-D52B-4552-A11C-03D5BFCDFAE3@mnot.net> To: Mark Nottingham X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2020 02:49:01 -0000 Piling on late to the game: I support adoption. spt > On Dec 11, 2019, at 16:35, Mark Nottingham wrote: >=20 > This is a Call for Adoption of the following document: > = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-schinazi-quic-version-negotiation-02 >=20 > The Working Group has discussed recently in Singapore, where there was = support for quick adoption. >=20 > Please state whether you support adoption of the document by the = Working Group, and any additional information that you feel may be = helpful. >=20 > This call will end on 15 January 2020. >=20 > Regards, >=20 > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >=20 From nobody Tue Jan 7 18:49:54 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6E7112007A for ; 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Tue, 07 Jan 2020 18:49:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from sn3rd.lan ([75.102.131.34]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 124sm779286qko.11.2020.01.07.18.49.50 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 07 Jan 2020 18:49:50 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Subject: Re: Call for Adoption: draft-pauly-quic-datagram From: Sean Turner In-Reply-To: <5A21DBF8-996D-410D-A868-95D640C39298@mnot.net> Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 21:49:50 -0500 Cc: IETF QUIC WG , Lars Eggert Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <232EE4DE-0A32-4892-827E-388C70D974B0@sn3rd.com> References: <5A21DBF8-996D-410D-A868-95D640C39298@mnot.net> To: Mark Nottingham X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2020 02:49:54 -0000 Piling on late to the game: I support adoption. spt > On Dec 11, 2019, at 16:36, Mark Nottingham wrote: >=20 > This is a Call for Adoption of the following document: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pauly-quic-datagram-05 >=20 > The Working Group has discussed this document for some time, most = recently in Singapore. >=20 > Please state whether you support adoption of the document by the = Working Group, and any additional information that you feel may be = helpful. >=20 > This call will end on 15 January 2020. >=20 > Regards, >=20 > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >=20 From nobody Tue Jan 7 23:20:18 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A89CA120105 for ; 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Tue, 7 Jan 2020 23:20:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.5.2.17] (helo=xmail07.myhosting.com) by xsmtp22.mail2web.com with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1ip5dS-00057Q-Rq for quic@ietf.org; Tue, 07 Jan 2020 23:20:10 -0800 Received: (qmail 19407 invoked from network); 8 Jan 2020 07:20:10 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.200.66]) (Authenticated-user:_huitema@huitema.net@[72.235.197.82]) (envelope-sender ) by xmail07.myhosting.com (qmail-ldap-1.03) with ESMTPA for ; 8 Jan 2020 07:20:10 -0000 To: Lucas Pardue , IETF QUIC WG References: <20200107143114.GC14229@ubuntu-dmitri> <20200107194543.GK14229@ubuntu-dmitri> From: Christian Huitema Autocrypt: addr=huitema@huitema.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFIRX8gBCAC26usy/Ya38IqaLBSu33vKD6hP5Yw390XsWLaAZTeQR64OJEkoOdXpvcOS HWfMIlD5s5+oHfLe8jjmErFAXYJ8yytPj1fD2OdSKAe1TccUBiOXT8wdVxSr5d0alExVv/LO I/vA2aU1TwOkVHKSapD7j8/HZBrqIWRrXUSj2f5n9tY2nJzG9KRzSG0giaJWBfUFiGb4lvsy IaCaIU0YpfkDDk6PtK5YYzuCeF0B+O7N9LhDu/foUUc4MNq4K3EKDPb2FL1Hrv0XHpkXeMRZ olpH8SUFUJbmi+zYRuUgcXgMZRmZFL1tu6z9h6gY4/KPyF9aYot6zG28Qk/BFQRtj7V1ABEB AAG0J0NocmlzdGlhbiBIdWl0ZW1hIDxodWl0ZW1hQGh1aXRlbWEubmV0PokBOQQTAQIAIwUC UhFfyAIbLwcLCQgHAwIBBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJEJNDCbJVyA1yhbYH/1ud6x6m VqGIp0JcZUfSQO8w+TjugqxCyGNn+w/6Qb5O/xENxNQ4HaMQ5uSRK9n8WKKDDRSzwZ4syKKf wbkfj05vgFxrjCynVbm1zs2X2aGXh+PxPL/WHUaxzEP7KjYbLtCUZDRzOOrm+0LMktngT/k3 6+EZoLEM52hwwpIAzJoscyEz7QfqMOZtFm6xQnlvDQeIrHx0KUvwo/vgDLK3SuruG1CSHcR0 D24kEEUa044AIUKBS3b0b8AR7f6mP2NcnLpdsibtpabi9BzqAidcY/EjTaoea46HXALk/eJd 6OLkLE6UQe1PPzQC4jB7rErX2BxnSkHDw50xMgLRcl5/b1a5AQ0EUhFfyAEIAKp7Cp8lqKTV CC9QiAf6QTIjW+lie5J44Ad++0k8gRgANZVWubQuCQ71gxDWLtxYfFkEXjG4TXV/MUtnOliG 5rc2E+ih6Dg61Y5PQakm9OwPIsOx+2R+iSW325ngln2UQrVPgloO83QiUoi7mBJPbcHlxkhZ bd3+EjFxSLIQogt29sTcg2oSh4oljUpz5niTt69IOfZx21kf29NfDE+Iw56gfrxI2ywZbu5o G+d0ZSp0lsovygpk4jK04fDTq0vxjEU5HjPcsXC4CSZdq5E2DrF4nOh1UHkHzeaXdYR2Bn1Y wTePfaHBFlvQzI+Li/Q6AD/uxbTM0vIcsUxrv3MNHCUAEQEAAYkCPgQYAQIACQUCUhFfyAIb LgEpCRCTQwmyVcgNcsBdIAQZAQIABgUCUhFfyAAKCRC22tOSFDh1UOlBB/94RsCJepNvmi/c YiNmMnm0mKb6vjv43OsHkqrrCqJSfo95KHyl5Up4JEp8tiJMyYT2mp4IsirZHxz/5lqkw9Az tcGAF3GlFsj++xTyD07DXlNeddwTKlqPRi/b8sppjtWur6Pm+wnAHp0mQ7GidhxHccFCl65w uT7S/ocb1MjrTgnAMiz+x87d48n1UJ7yIdI41Wpg2XFZiA9xPBiDuuoPwFj14/nK0elV5Dvq 4/HVgfurb4+fd74PV/CC/dmd7hg0ZRlgnB5rFUcFO7ywb7/TvICIIaLWcI42OJDSZjZ/MAzz BeXm263lHh+kFxkh2LxEHnQGHCHGpTYyi4Z3dv03HtkH/1SI8joQMQq00Bv+RdEbJXfEExrT u4gtdZAihwvy97OPA2nCdTAHm/phkzryMeOaOztI4PS8u2Ce5lUB6P/HcGtK/038KdX5MYST Fn8KUDt4o29bkv0CUXwDzS3oTzPNtGdryBkRMc9b+yn9+AdwFEH4auhiTQXPMnl0+G3nhKr7 jvzVFJCRif3OAhEm4vmBNDE3uuaXFQnbK56GJrnqVN+KX5Z3M7X3fA8UcVCGOEHXRP/aubiw Ngawj0V9x+43kUapFp+nF69R53UI65YtJ95ec4PTO/Edvap8h1UbdEOc4+TiYwY1TBuIKltY 1cnrjgAWUh/Ucvr++/KbD9tD6C8= Subject: Re: ALPN negotiation (was Re: Add extension work to Interop matrix) Message-ID: <0199d52e-22c8-0297-1daf-0e2d58bb7146@huitema.net> Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 21:20:10 -1000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US X-Originating-IP: 66.113.197.241 X-Spampanel-Domain: xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Username: 66.113.197.0/24 Authentication-Results: antispamcloud.com; auth=pass smtp.auth=66.113.197.0/24@xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Class: unsure X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.15) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: Mvzo4OR0dZXEDF/gcnlw0c2Pj46HODYmpAMVAv0J1pOpSDasLI4SayDByyq9LIhVUZbR67CQ7/vm /hHDJU4RXkTNWdUk1Ol2OGx3IfrIJKywOmJyM1qr8uRnWBrbSAGDcnqpk5VeF3xR4kF6iVwRtbgN zB/4Jkrw1eDLcif59fs7qjd8W+GXDZXHwHPCtA5eU7Tmz6iKnkQL9gqsxD347235Nhqq+/HvroPq 8GSPg+5aB4itzNZ07CdqP+KMfGjQX2XX9bIsGDSYq5OAASmskY6jSvfpO+1kZkomjtjB6X5Q5Q9f RUeIpTIC2ySfqvnqLwoxlgatmaBb0rBiK9xbkDrUqzcKIief90MVLZY9LbIZh9+IQ1oS9LBn3VIP 95Jz7ujRlJ9wSMlhvaudJXZ9EIBG/qaR+8r9SKFMmPJLf850OvZYsmoVQuOIhwKLK6IKBNB4LZ0v UHHKTzJX7b1JhLSQQ4vSj0QEim26t/Moy0UPX5E73H1QfrH/5kkrV/Cr0bm2vWdo8usP65i82q1C dZgGrpL44wdx9eXqjQjbvUopOMQJvQ/Ck3iiU+4DQAj3fuQgzT3K9JUHTNiGwfwAm3OZmI6+6AcH EU4XbMnrDapXSV0lPHjGZLkASD9YtLp9Tmjc8j+tOSWU+Bn4Vz6Mj0VGse/cM3OE24kK8fSBg6Qv UwPy3x0FYtCNEb10sHyQCLHEvD1OqP6bgZ4L66GcgBg66gs5OuzYxJgw5atIxeNDvjI/CYe5WPy0 +t1RP0azpFMsWFZJr4WEMkTiya02oZxMPnetLBJMh51NiRRoHIBcx7f8ve2CAs+4/dnikaUumiK7 x42VjdzChZMe6O/Did+/hGXTmfhE+Dx2/NyzMXrjqfPIfBO6tFKU+RyVUyb6vOnCUbNPgcPcQwzM gKHyQxUo+ql2ySTkvEFH/23XMww2BnTTFGX5/yI4Ky+1ZJcbGqc5H4PEZHeoI/d6LWFf332z7LMw LGdoi9FMQ5j9dQUvMi1YKAun15JQSJLyCT5k+MTObVKxHy/dols381l9r9ft9daDonlwd6LnuX+J u10= X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@quarantine11.antispamcloud.com Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2020 07:20:18 -0000 On 1/7/2020 9:51 AM, Lucas Pardue wrote: > Probably a good idea.=C2=A0 > > IIUC I think you could solve the multi- version problem by creating > two (or more) aliases for each version of the same protocol. This > means testing of ALPN ordering but implementations don't need to > support protocol level changes. > > The upshot is that this could also be used for Alt-Svc testing.=C2=A0 > > Lucas The aliasing part is interesting, but it requires some WG conventions, e.g. stating that "hq-24" and "a24-hq" are equivalent. We would have to agree on the convention as part of interop testing. Also, if the list proposed by the client is "a24-hq, hq-24", how do you define success? Negotiating the first value in the list? Negotiating any of the values in the list? Related thought: is there an ALPN range reserved for greasing? -- Christian Huitema From nobody Wed Jan 8 03:56:04 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19D711201CE for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2020 03:56:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.719 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.719 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=bt.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0LXtB11rg_2L for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2020 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([fe80::393d:418c:3f1d:991d%21]) with mapi id 14.03.0468.000; Wed, 8 Jan 2020 13:19:35 +0100 From: To: Dmitri Tikhonov , IETF QUIC WG Subject: RE: Add extension work to Interop matrix Thread-Topic: Add extension work to Interop matrix Thread-Index: AQHVxWcngjxvOb5vE0+Txp/QSbUc+qfgeCQg Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 12:19:35 +0000 Message-ID: <24595_1578485976_5E15C8D8_24595_35_1_5AE9CCAA1B4A2248AB61B4C7F0AD5FB931F8D50E@OPEXCAUBM44.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <20200107143114.GC14229@ubuntu-dmitri> In-Reply-To: <20200107143114.GC14229@ubuntu-dmitri> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.114.13.247] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2020 12:19:40 -0000 Hi +1, I am supporting this since we initiated the work on the spinbit. Regards Emile -----Original Message----- From: QUIC [mailto:quic-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Dmitri Tikhonov Sent: mardi 7 janvier 2020 15:31 To: IETF QUIC WG Subject: Add extension work to Interop matrix Hello, There are now a few extensions that have been proposed and implemented. We should add them to the next Interop matrix. I suggest using the following codes: g Datagram extension r HTTP priorities extension q Loss bits extension ('l' looks too much like '1') 1 One-way delay extension 'g' and 'r' can be added to the third row, while 'q' and '1' can be added to the second row (dropping the "use uppercase letters only" requirement). - Dmitri. ___________________________________________________________________________= ______________________________________________ Ce message et ses pieces jointes peuvent contenir des informations confiden= tielles ou privilegiees et ne doivent donc pas etre diffuses, exploites ou copies sans autorisation. Si vous avez recu= ce message par erreur, veuillez le signaler a l'expediteur et le detruire ainsi que les pieces jointes. Les messages el= ectroniques etant susceptibles d'alteration, Orange decline toute responsabilite si ce message a ete altere, deforme ou = falsifie. Merci. This message and its attachments may contain confidential or privileged inf= ormation that may be protected by law; they should not be distributed, used or copied without authorisation. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender and dele= te this message and its attachments. As emails may be altered, Orange is not liable for messages that have been = modified, changed or falsified. Thank you. From nobody Wed Jan 8 04:27:55 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F64F120119 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2020 04:27:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W4ZkBFd9j8KF for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2020 04:27:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from vs21.mail.saunalahti.fi (vs21.mail.saunalahti.fi [193.64.193.197]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 10A931200B5 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2020 04:27:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from vs21.mail.saunalahti.fi (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vs21.mail.saunalahti.fi (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2443202E3; Wed, 8 Jan 2020 14:27:49 +0200 (EET) Received: from gw03.mail.saunalahti.fi (gw03.mail.saunalahti.fi [195.197.172.111]) by vs21.mail.saunalahti.fi (Postfix) with ESMTP id B78402024A; Wed, 8 Jan 2020 14:27:49 +0200 (EET) Received: from eggert.org (unknown [62.248.255.8]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: eggert@elisanet.fi) by gw03.mail.saunalahti.fi (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A4DCE20075; Wed, 8 Jan 2020 14:27:47 +0200 (EET) Received: from slate.eggert.org (Slate.eggert.org [172.19.235.111]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D36C4600503; Wed, 8 Jan 2020 14:27:40 +0200 (EET) From: Lars Eggert Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A291A5E7-3D9B-4C51-BCEB-B862A19C09A8"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.40.2.2.4\)) Subject: Re: Add extension work to Interop matrix Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 14:27:39 +0200 In-Reply-To: <20200107143114.GC14229@ubuntu-dmitri> Cc: IETF QUIC WG To: Dmitri Tikhonov References: <20200107143114.GC14229@ubuntu-dmitri> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.40.2.2.4) X-MailScanner-ID: D36C4600503.A1ACA X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2020 12:27:54 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_A291A5E7-3D9B-4C51-BCEB-B862A19C09A8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, On 2020-1-7, at 16:31, Dmitri Tikhonov = wrote: > There are now a few extensions that have been proposed and = implemented. > We should add them to the next Interop matrix. maybe we should add a fourth row for extensions? I'm with Lucas on that I'd like to keep the sheet focused on protocol = features (and now possibly extensions) that have seen WG adoption. The = rough idea is that unless we believe that the majority of = implementations are going to implement something, it's probably not = worthwhile adding it to the sheet. Lars --Apple-Mail=_A291A5E7-3D9B-4C51-BCEB-B862A19C09A8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAl4VyrwACgkQVLXDCb9w wVfE/A/+Ix0bdRsKYtgu7UdyQ5GHv7z7kko76mkJ8JSZ/eqBwHacVk+NTP8vjwiE XQ2hcxea9J3Jq0wyLtswZGQP7EbE7r2abMp5pgJtLrwhaOcI3hwRqqa7fRWVz8j1 m+T7z/pKlsDvZMjWI8LrlFvzuPKNuZ+8NVEHhub3iJbWSnB1Ixurmdi7RJpkrq5q cpmyDt60ZwimjHwq9CnCh8CX7SEjB+z5/vhow1AmeP22360kt3k9Avk0O4BJt3eN lIVvi0FIWaxipRVDTd2aEkwPgdMkiHcrbrdrTmyLrZqHokIzvRlGzm0lzWMUHVvQ r41q5/232Oxfj/TWN7j1p3rHpdsvt9pkx6NvQmUS8hfz2yNTmphYzYTb6b1LS/jg bK/SsEdvMJgV/zHHcITl36UB5tD9VcstGEJQKqK5G8z936jjBgIBXpRTrGuWyTQP 0YExgJ+vceqv6oVGSt5Z3gfFjavTw7rSLEDXOol4OxRIWw/W9FwsukhQzgPACTHQ ag3e23u8X/Gdk33vqzU9EoNCAlcOq0e7apFjoXIqD0TIPh2TyJJ9Vvrjihnd1CWJ jkrM+Ai9Vny/ltgwmU6P6sQrqLin14yBd7NdmO5ITznp6K2SK2teQyFnJCykapNn 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[47.22.54.182]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m68sm3075206qke.17.2020.01.09.05.54.22 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 09 Jan 2020 05:54:22 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2020 08:54:20 -0500 From: Dmitri Tikhonov To: Andrei Popov Cc: Christian Huitema , IETF QUIC WG Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: ALPN negotiation (was Re: Add extension work to Interop matrix) Message-ID: <20200109135420.GB7263@ubuntu-dmitri> Mail-Followup-To: Andrei Popov , Christian Huitema , IETF QUIC WG References: <20200107143114.GC14229@ubuntu-dmitri> <20200107194543.GK14229@ubuntu-dmitri> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2020 13:54:25 -0000 That's true. Then, what would the test be? - Dmitri. On Tue, Jan 07, 2020 at 07:49:52PM +0000, Andrei Popov wrote: > > 1. Client sends (h3-X, h3-Y), server responds with h3-X; and > > 2. Client sends (h3-Y, h3-X), server responds with h3-Y? > > Not necessarily. The server will likely choose an ALPN ID based on the server's application protocol preferences, rather than the client's. > > Cheers, > > Andrei > > -----Original Message----- > From: QUIC On Behalf Of Dmitri Tikhonov > Sent: Tuesday, January 7, 2020 11:46 AM > To: Christian Huitema > Cc: IETF QUIC WG > Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: ALPN negotiation (was Re: Add extension work to Interop matrix) > > On Tue, Jan 07, 2020 at 09:06:49AM -1000, Christian Huitema wrote: > > It seems that ALPN negotiation is going to be a practical requirement > > going forward. Not so much for negotiating H09 versus H3, we can > > expect > > H09 to fade away at some point. But we will have to negotiate h3-24 vs > > h3-25 and similar transitions for a good bit of time, and then we will > > probably move to h4-00, h4-01, etc. So maybe we should start testing that. > > I would be for it. Is the testing as simple as > > 1. Client sends (h3-X, h3-Y), server responds with h3-X; and > 2. Client sends (h3-Y, h3-X), server responds with h3-Y? > > Of course, this assumes that the server support both h3-X and h3-Y. > For example, supporting drafts 23 and 24 at the same time was easy; > 24 and 25 might not be as easy. > > - Dmitri. > From nobody Thu Jan 9 06:01:54 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5975E12004E for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2020 06:01:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=litespeedtech-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JIsg4mo4yyRp for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2020 06:01:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x72e.google.com (mail-qk1-x72e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EEC51120227 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2020 06:01:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x72e.google.com with SMTP id z14so5999063qkg.9 for ; Thu, 09 Jan 2020 06:01:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=litespeedtech-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:mail-followup-to:references :mime-version:content-disposition:in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=wNRHtBzvpTGOUDyw2oNoO0mDyeM50Eu1dadXVq24bz8=; b=LnBaA40OLDUqf8RxZ4HXXhl01In2wxio22DxvQlb4h9+9+QHu/OJzRiKMWp6k1H9b+ DM1c+pmklp8+60IidaOEK8dFzkl4vkEb8M2peY9W8FTBxSYnwmKiyW8uWgcoLGBmW+tM RCNYv797+gbYlHxp+GiJYxVXuRaC2c2aY/Py1MjalIS1eYE9PTZk9HpNJTD6RXekHkMf XB6QRD6C8Bp2cby2Wk7V8onerSHsKADbhM2x6m+0BTLmQ3jIzi5UKV5bRTI1QCrpsZcm UQv76qPqNPfYYrcNbOtdnX4Mc6pWp5nWSgQCTG8QCcAHXs0JljijlvQHZq4yk0U0LE8D amaw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id :mail-followup-to:references:mime-version:content-disposition :in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=wNRHtBzvpTGOUDyw2oNoO0mDyeM50Eu1dadXVq24bz8=; b=BDW395yb+z5P7nsh8UZ6EPkmim8q5qFIb8aQ9cRrm1svbB2iuf/IK1EKfc6CuHz7Dn LeQs/GZia8bq29gqSH/D8bL/r5sMPFZ3h/lav3BKtA/zDHwkvsIZuz5LFJPtL8+hFJE2 O126KVQBSnNksOYAYAD70jtLRnpBhJpwfPqx8ugAUfO9OmZgeejG/qLnrUXxAgJPlpvV 4nhV9fErcBHw2YyfEk0MupjFaGvx5JzUClS3siJ9UQWzhe+L9Affa9kAKo1xu/w9Ov2h IPozLEd6k1OK4xi0qbAmS+2fQQme4zSBhbqj5g94DhNr21FHYBjF1shv8SH6PfyS9uVt XBmw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVG0wUF15d/za0gRlnDZrLbwRUafIpwecC7JwsKmOI3kY6NJbml 2dbvuzT2h+CHVSIzwZpAXzH0+g== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqy5m4YRu76swvv0U7XjJpmOtyxWy7KYV+TAqV2UAzeALcd99+29b1s/zis7vphDDQUaO/jp6A== X-Received: by 2002:ae9:ee11:: with SMTP id i17mr9657460qkg.333.1578578509174; Thu, 09 Jan 2020 06:01:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from ubuntu-dmitri (ool-2f1636b6.static.optonline.net. [47.22.54.182]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a36sm3394108qtk.29.2020.01.09.06.01.48 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 09 Jan 2020 06:01:48 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2020 09:01:46 -0500 From: Dmitri Tikhonov To: Mark Nottingham Cc: "Lubashev, Igor" , Magnus Westerlund , "Roni Even (A)" , "quic@ietf.org" , Lars Eggert Subject: Re: Re-chartering for extension work Message-ID: <20200109140145.GC7263@ubuntu-dmitri> Mail-Followup-To: Mark Nottingham , "Lubashev, Igor" , Magnus Westerlund , "Roni Even (A)" , "quic@ietf.org" , Lars Eggert References: <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD27D34F98@dggemm526-mbx.china.huawei.com> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD27D34FD8@dggemm526-mbx.china.huawei.com> <18FA3A15-D580-43FD-A64C-E12E79D91419@mnot.net> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD27D35044@dggemm526-mbx.china.huawei.com> <1575ae9dcdcade6a8ec68289fd6b735eae04ed32.camel@ericsson.com> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD27D3512A@dggemm526-mbx.china.huawei.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2020 14:01:52 -0000 On Fri, Dec 13, 2019 at 10:16:45AM +1100, Mark Nottingham wrote: > > On 13 Dec 2019, at 3:14 am, Lubashev, Igor wrote: > > We were planning to present the draft of lossbits as a negotiated > > extension in Zurich, but given that the time for the inclusion > > in the Charter is now, we can get the draft out next week. > > Given the prior discussion and expressed willingness of at > > least a part of the WG to work on this, would you include > > that extension draft in the WG adoption call prior to the > > charter update? (As usual, adoption != publication, which is > > subject to the deliberations of the WG, including a positive > > privacy/security analysis.) > > If we performed a Call for Adoption now, I strongly suspect it > would fail, because the privacy and security evaluation hasn't > been performed; we went through the same process for the spin bit. What is the security evaluation process? Can just anyone do it (for example, myself sitting down and thinking about it really hard) or are there designated IETF people or entities that do this sort of thing? - Dmitri. From nobody Thu Jan 9 06:18:44 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D19F1120026 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2020 06:18:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D7F4CfDrwHPz for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2020 06:18:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9001:583::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C1AEA12004E for ; 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Thu, 09 Jan 2020 06:59:39 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200107143114.GC14229@ubuntu-dmitri> <20200107194543.GK14229@ubuntu-dmitri> <20200109135420.GB7263@ubuntu-dmitri> In-Reply-To: <20200109135420.GB7263@ubuntu-dmitri> From: Lucas Pardue Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2020 14:59:28 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: ALPN negotiation (was Re: Add extension work to Interop matrix) To: Andrei Popov , Christian Huitema , IETF QUIC WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000027a17e059bb642e2" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2020 14:59:43 -0000 --00000000000027a17e059bb642e2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" While writing up a response I was reminded of David Benjamin's TLS Extensibility draft, draft-ietf-tls-grease-04 [1], which probably covers some of the discussion in this thread and defines ALPN grease values. If we want to do something QUIC specific we may want to incorporate some of that. Interop tests would probably require some idea of the client knowing what to expect the server to select, without that, how success is measured is tricky (as mentioned above). I'm starting to wonder if such a test becomes a little contrived though. ALPN for HTTP/1.1 and HTTP/2 seems to be working fine on the Internet. There might be merit in expanding the scope a little to think about testing connection establishment including negotiation extension. The example case is DATAGRAM, where "h3-NN" is agreed in ALPN but there is a mismatch of the QUIC connection parameters for max_datagram_frame_size. [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tls-grease-04 --00000000000027a17e059bb642e2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
While writing up a response I was reminded of David B= enjamin's TLS Extensibility draft, draft-ietf-tls-grease-04 [1], which = probably covers some of the discussion in this thread and defines ALPN grea= se values.

If we want to do something QUIC spe= cific we may want to incorporate some of that. Interop tests would probably= require some idea of the client knowing what to expect the server to selec= t, without that, how success is measured is tricky (as mentioned above).

I'm starting to wonder if such a test becomes a = little contrived though. ALPN for HTTP/1.1 and HTTP/2 seems to be working f= ine on the Internet. There might be merit in expanding the scope a little t= o think about testing connection establishment including negotiation extens= ion. The example case is DATAGRAM, where "h3-NN" is agreed in ALP= N but there is a mismatch of the QUIC connection parameters for=C2=A0 max_d= atagram_frame_size.



[1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-tls-grease-04
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Thu, 9 Jan 2020 18:36:57 +0000 From: Andrei Popov To: Dmitri Tikhonov CC: Christian Huitema , IETF QUIC WG Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: ALPN negotiation (was Re: Add extension work to Interop matrix) Thread-Topic: [EXTERNAL] Re: ALPN negotiation (was Re: Add extension work to Interop matrix) Thread-Index: AQHVxZMYj/ulOh4bgUu9aP7vAYeIGaffm4LwgALB7ACAAE0P8A== Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2020 18:36:56 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20200107143114.GC14229@ubuntu-dmitri> <20200107194543.GK14229@ubuntu-dmitri> <20200109135420.GB7263@ubuntu-dmitri> In-Reply-To: <20200109135420.GB7263@ubuntu-dmitri> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: msip_labels: MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_ActionId=949d6284-d7f7-45bf-bb78-00000a68af56; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_ContentBits=0; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Enabled=true; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Method=Standard; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Name=Internal; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:MN2PR00MB0576; H:MN2PR00MB0464.namprd00.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: microsoft.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: J8yU+rd9wyanDl5rFcSPW6zqcjM6eZH7CkxnOiLIXR4hFd8QlYtj6wY+E0z6KYDxB5WaCBb5m8o2hvR7krZ0Y1qf01gh/8lvQZkiWvCS5P6NyeD29r9MgR8utY12gYuhFmfMGhvcxLD4wEbQHm9O41r2PoKLOBqF3l/FWaJkCM7sqyQq3NzYZO8/lIkTUzAY0o9iRHlN8Cj5lDh/0ZFHhQ== x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: b7f8feb6-3b89-4d7d-cfdd-08d79532e80a X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 09 Jan 2020 18:36:56.8611 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: QftNYh7KcUEm2u3CN5w1eaOjuXKvlqZqM462zE7vcLf9wP0Pct3JX2w/pGzpfvP619fdTRCNn50kgCDtzgSAuA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MN2PR00MB0576 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2020 18:37:02 -0000 The test would need to consider the server's ALPN preferences, e.g.: Client: (h3-X, h3-Y), server: (h3-Y, h3-X) =3D> server chooses h3-Y. Client: (h3-X, h3-Y), server: (h3-X, h3-Y) =3D> server chooses h3-X. Client: (h3-Y, h3-X), server: (h3-Y, h3-X) =3D> server chooses h3-Y. Client: (h3-Y, h3-X), server: (h3-X, h3-Y) =3D> server chooses h3-X. There are a lot of other possible test cases. Cheers, Andrei -----Original Message----- From: Dmitri Tikhonov =20 Sent: Thursday, January 9, 2020 5:54 AM To: Andrei Popov Cc: Christian Huitema ; IETF QUIC WG Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: ALPN negotiation (was Re: Add extension work to= Interop matrix) That's true. Then, what would the test be? - Dmitri. On Tue, Jan 07, 2020 at 07:49:52PM +0000, Andrei Popov wrote: > > 1. Client sends (h3-X, h3-Y), server responds with h3-X; and > > 2. Client sends (h3-Y, h3-X), server responds with h3-Y? >=20 > Not necessarily. The server will likely choose an ALPN ID based on the se= rver's application protocol preferences, rather than the client's. >=20 > Cheers, >=20 > Andrei >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: QUIC On Behalf Of Dmitri Tikhonov > Sent: Tuesday, January 7, 2020 11:46 AM > To: Christian Huitema > Cc: IETF QUIC WG > Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: ALPN negotiation (was Re: Add extension work=20 > to Interop matrix) >=20 > On Tue, Jan 07, 2020 at 09:06:49AM -1000, Christian Huitema wrote: > > It seems that ALPN negotiation is going to be a practical=20 > > requirement going forward. Not so much for negotiating H09 versus=20 > > H3, we can expect > > H09 to fade away at some point. But we will have to negotiate h3-24=20 > > vs > > h3-25 and similar transitions for a good bit of time, and then we=20 > > will probably move to h4-00, h4-01, etc. So maybe we should start testi= ng that. >=20 > I would be for it. Is the testing as simple as >=20 > 1. Client sends (h3-X, h3-Y), server responds with h3-X; and > 2. Client sends (h3-Y, h3-X), server responds with h3-Y? >=20 > Of course, this assumes that the server support both h3-X and h3-Y. > For example, supporting drafts 23 and 24 at the same time was easy; > 24 and 25 might not be as easy. >=20 > - Dmitri. >=20 From nobody Thu Jan 9 17:41:39 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF02E120131 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2020 17:41:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=lowentropy.net header.b=YQlI7cgT; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=FuZMPQ5E Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SokL2xepcgrK for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2020 17:41:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout5-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6CA9E120288 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2020 17:41:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A8455F1 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2020 20:41:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from imap2 ([10.202.2.52]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 09 Jan 2020 20:41:35 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=lowentropy.net; h=mime-version:message-id:in-reply-to:references:date:from:to :subject:content-type; s=fm1; bh=nsjJkxikvoyFpfkZJKE3KL1XZ+161MX LSX9um89m4bk=; b=YQlI7cgTMTZ83B/MMPfhRVHY89KdMUKudlrE3Soxspsc4ok YmlrAJir9qhyzlzWGTaKWYHkA8tP9kGAljI8hzhztxk41jMMLy8+GR005Vbt+SQ8 O+pxLlgY5XKjOpK/IIJ+lNOyWYiz2cBbn/w1xXlu1r0pbtazCOGjy5bT1bUbwpXc qsICM/fSnp6VxXIxjzwMVK2rdAk+/WecUdmlOiMi+ZN9KlYqoFJgTU1ZaWzaSr9B RS3LRZzvIcuSX+0wn17azKkuGgXx6Qd0PS3wfbCQo1cljUJT1i+I7mrIvymOY8RK VCHNUswx0Q/wqGOQxk2yzefTfOdbzJ3fyahAWjQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=nsjJkx ikvoyFpfkZJKE3KL1XZ+161MXLSX9um89m4bk=; b=FuZMPQ5E9mBhT/56Fe39M4 54MciIRWbQ0kVCfBo7tIQbQIhK2oDQfLjsT1QFNj+fRgS25iiaIkvV6y5UHBPELm QMRGoQxNF+Qmik22F4pmEgnIh7YhEtNA8FlUiXSlHm0IXWCexeYPKnuSCAmJaSnL CMMuPzBxyc2Mgz/pl/x4j3QnoLhopWgA/03HwdJqxTAfJXhz5RQ5hOb0ZD9aPiPT OUXug8B/KBrQ6nMv3kQNxv7L8V90gqV2TqGoK7D6+Fcz3B3k6qpGwYdIIeDC7OVa WmNhhEzJ5Kx8V1NbWGIOSXIq2sxYJhR/6cbZmNnUjIHPityByYoLgpTh1uqZU2yg == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedrvdeivddgfeefucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucenucfjughrpefofgggkfgjfhffhffvufgtsehttd ertderredtnecuhfhrohhmpedfofgrrhhtihhnucfvhhhomhhsohhnfdcuoehmtheslhho figvnhhtrhhophihrdhnvghtqeenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepmhhtsehloh ifvghnthhrohhphidrnhgvthenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedt X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id D8B09E00A2; Thu, 9 Jan 2020 20:41:34 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.7-740-g7d9d84e-fmstable-20200109v1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <72ef65b4-0a12-4fba-975b-a35b1a425ec7@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <20200109140145.GC7263@ubuntu-dmitri> References: <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD27D34F98@dggemm526-mbx.china.huawei.com> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD27D34FD8@dggemm526-mbx.china.huawei.com> <18FA3A15-D580-43FD-A64C-E12E79D91419@mnot.net> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD27D35044@dggemm526-mbx.china.huawei.com> <1575ae9dcdcade6a8ec68289fd6b735eae04ed32.camel@ericsson.com> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD27D3512A@dggemm526-mbx.china.huawei.com> <20200109140145.GC7263@ubuntu-dmitri> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 12:41:15 +1100 From: "Martin Thomson" To: quic@ietf.org Subject: Re: Re-chartering for extension work Content-Type: text/plain Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 01:41:38 -0000 On Fri, Jan 10, 2020, at 01:01, Dmitri Tikhonov wrote: > What is the security evaluation process? Can just anyone do it > (for example, myself sitting down and thinking about it really > hard) or are there designated IETF people or entities that do > this sort of thing? The goal is to reach consensus on what the properties of the proposal are. Maybe we might not agree on the value proposition, but we should be able to agree on the impact a proposal has to the privacy and security of different participants. When we did the spin bit, we formed a design team that discussed potential threats and produced an assessment of the overall impact of the proposal. That design team reported their findings to the group, people asked questions that were answered, we each reached our own conclusions, and ultimately we concluded that the findings were sound. That meant that we were able to make a decision about adoption that wasn't confused by a disagreement about the facts. It's probably not the case that everything needs a design team or that level of process as long as we are able to reach consensus, but for contentious or complicated topics, you could need even more support or background work when it comes to establishing what the facts are. For instance, when we did HPACK, Google funded academic research into the proposal and the researchers set out to break the scheme. That was hugely helpful in informing our decision to adopt that approach. From nobody Fri Jan 10 01:51:05 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2E49120848 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2020 01:51:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=tessares-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PRK9mHP2dVzf for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2020 01:51:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr1-x42a.google.com (mail-wr1-x42a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AA83712081F for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2020 01:51:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr1-x42a.google.com with SMTP id b6so1187635wrq.0 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2020 01:51:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tessares-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=LVgvR2KQ/Eb58kaenVLnMFrEF6+Cz2c/Mllp1uU0UcA=; b=JziGezcpydyvTKtZEczkpwpvQ8/At9EnELPX2t7ZGLkPLz2YC5JLSrp9dY/djgG2ep NPeJ3I+XIA+ySASk1a7dOA7jt7WmpdUzCEJNHV460Rlgj96epIbr5wDVhQfH5H8LuSpw uWx521q/y8zMqsQwU4yJeBqGZZvBC7cnb4Kgf5SV0JnaE+h9lkksnu/EL6sx7QxirokR fnAzPZZjhQD67fEodKfAi3PEwa1SG5IlFutFRx7WfOnlLcMtXsKK1Ev+Jp/kpI7JrqC+ nnUo4o40fJxEmdJSiAPZMMwlYWmxybtrsFF9zjA2Bbmj6gHWJcpyH+b3ANaaJcMQII4P 3r+w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=LVgvR2KQ/Eb58kaenVLnMFrEF6+Cz2c/Mllp1uU0UcA=; b=h52F/sdk0Tm01eKYVfLhYOk5UsAFJyz1EqPmvCnso2FEU4uCb0gz5iTbpNr9LqxVNj oDAxbyu9+R2+NdvUteDf7EHl0ZGIe3HmZ3ExdO4iIsLhKk3mjoJOHOdYdH75fMMHSr7n uDvPzoB6A/4VGYzTueKFx9besIyPeCoOpp5m5iuBjS4rETYtoFiRCFmmFuyhMxUK3HSM cwF7IqpZHzliE3p1ok6/hQe9UFLgfYQybSMSnHOSVd0gRDLIFsKFGbBmY3MAZgCxFm8a UHWmfNfAfvUutcFjgjwkep1j9T6EH8vxs5xQceEMynSmU2GiKa30w0Luqc1OVcEh2cWh EFCA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXNPxV2rK5BqhPJpSq6hZVvM7j93wLrSZhOstujBNRU89o237+S ry2Z4kX/bVrKAvHRK9ANaAqEFN6BTTzQvokDmB4ab8NNfRq1AwI77FEjHBHYJf7Ulu2ml9gu X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxsRgp7kv+8shuvz3m4YjGI//s7avpoerPxLEgsZhiIRzTbG1PN2fIuLk8aOVn2ei++3yOA5g== X-Received: by 2002:a5d:5491:: with SMTP id h17mr2584814wrv.374.1578649858821; Fri, 10 Jan 2020 01:50:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:6a8:308f:2:e03b:2967:3016:4f90? ([2001:6a8:308f:2:e03b:2967:3016:4f90]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r5sm1542723wrt.43.2020.01.10.01.50.57 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 10 Jan 2020 01:50:58 -0800 (PST) From: Olivier Bonaventure Message-Id: <3A7DF177-3C7B-45AE-8677-BA1D0DC84A74@tessares.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Subject: Re: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extension work) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 10:50:57 +0100 In-Reply-To: <148DA586-6EDF-4DBE-9CB0-685C66745A7C@ericsson.com> Cc: Jana Iyengar , Tommy Pauly , Quentin De Coninck , Ryan Hamilton , Mark Nottingham , Christian Huitema , Lars Eggert , =?utf-8?Q?Mikkel_Fahn=C3=B8e_J=C3=B8rgensen?= , IETF QUIC WG To: Mirja Kuehlewind References: <8EC91F90-2799-48EF-B083-D9C32F2D28F0@apple.com> <148DA586-6EDF-4DBE-9CB0-685C66745A7C@ericsson.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C72B095C-DB1B-4F80-A973-FF6D56D9AB73" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 09:51:04 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_C72B095C-DB1B-4F80-A973-FF6D56D9AB73 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Dear Mirja, > =20 > As Tommy said, migration is already the first half of multipath support f= or QUIC. So I expect it will be easier to add it to QUIC than it was for TC= P. The main benefit of QUIC is that we do not need to take middleboxes into ac= count and can reason about the transport layer directly.=20 > I would at least be curious to spend some time on figuring out how much (= or how less) effort it would be. Maybe there is also another step before go= ing to full multipath support that could support the handover use case bett= er, e.g. sending redundant data on multi paths or something. I think it wor= th think about it. Please don=E2=80=99t do that. With QUIC, have a unique opportunity to desi= gn an architecturally clean and easily deployable multipath transport proto= col. We should not pollute this design with hacks and short term solutions = that have been included in too many Internet protocols for various reasons.= =20 > However, while I would like to see this discussion starting now, I think = it=E2=80=99s fine to wait for adoption of any draft until v1 is done. As already explained in previous emails, Quentin De Coninck has leveraged a= ll the lessons learned from Multipath TCP in a Multipath QUIC design that h= as evolved in parallel with the standardisation work of QUIC v1. The initia= l design was described in https://multipath-quic.org/conext17-deconinck.pdf and in https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-de= coninck-multipath-quic-00.txt There was a running implementation on top of quic-go that is available from= https://multipath-quic.org The draft has evolved several times on https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dra= ft-deconinck-quic-multipath/ =20 The recent draft has been implemented on top of picoquic and was released o= n pquic.org =20 Quentin has studied these designs in details with many experiments, both in= the lab and in the wild on smartphones. He=E2=80=99d be ready to present t= his in details to the working group if if eventually decides to work on the= multipath item of its charter. I would encourage the working group members= to start to read the last version of Quentin=E2=80=99s draft and provide c= omments. Best regards, Olivier --=20 Disclaimer: https://www.tessares.net/mail-disclaimer/=20 --Apple-Mail=_C72B095C-DB1B-4F80-A973-FF6D56D9AB73 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Dear Mirja,

 
As Tommy said, migration is already the first half of multipath = support for QUIC. So I expect it will be easier to add it to QUIC than it w= as for TCP.
The main benefit of QUIC is that we do not need to = take middleboxes into account and can reason about the transport layer dire= ctly. 

I would at least be curious to spen= d some time on figuring out how much (or how less) effort it would be. Mayb= e there is also another step before going to full multipath support that co= uld support the handover use case better, e.g. sending redundant data on mu= lti paths or something. I think it worth think about it.


Please don=E2=80=99t do that. With QUIC,  have a u= nique opportunity to design an architecturally clean and easily deployable = multipath transport protocol. We should not pollute this design with hacks = and short term solutions that have been included in too many Internet proto= cols for various reasons. 

However, while I would like to = see this discussion starting now, I think it=E2=80=99s fine to wait for ado= ption of any draft until v1 is done.

As already explained in previous email= s, Quentin De Coninck has leveraged all the lessons learned from Multipath = TCP in a Multipath QUIC design that has evolved in parallel with the standa= rdisation work of QUIC v1. The initial design was described in

The= re was a running implementation on top of quic-go that is available from&nb= sp;https://multipath-quic= .org

The draft has evolved several = times on https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-deconinck= -quic-multipath/ 

The recent d= raft has been implemented on top of picoquic and was released on pquic.org 

=
Quentin has studied these designs in details with many experimen= ts, both in the lab and in the wild on smartphones. He=E2=80=99d be ready t= o present this in details to the working group if if eventually decides to = work on the multipath item of its charter. I would encourage the working gr= oup members to start to read the last version of Quentin=E2=80=99s draft an= d provide comments.


Best regards,


Olivier





--Apple-Mail=_C72B095C-DB1B-4F80-A973-FF6D56D9AB73-- From nobody Fri Jan 10 03:39:31 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FF9F1208AB for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2020 03:39:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.747 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.747 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Gb5oru-5o6OP for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2020 03:39:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ua1-x92a.google.com (mail-ua1-x92a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::92a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BA822120024 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2020 03:39:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ua1-x92a.google.com with SMTP id c14so581240uaq.11 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2020 03:39:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=pe9qYCiq9ONPTgJazuBGPgzFMKe1KFkxoVkGJYu2pSE=; b=nsdRunNcIhpCn4rBGZR4S9nRieNTW4lCH45jnEdytwMzxB/q6aZ//ABAtkTO4pYCu4 4nCzoOUhj4oJqRzb2G9q7JgScjfCyHWDZRGSvi5fxvRAaj5mDNPosTV2CQ1hT+nYTr+S bYjCPaUm0CzCVYb7ICqV5u74wDIvqVE5etuKLzxz/rIEr6N//HXWwngDxd63gGDf3Cd4 hyPqvQoeRlcU7eQvXui2kEzA3L+u3w8Yl2yVhp9zz2x+0TG9hjVYKcO8QH9DHusCGSXL DU5AX0HtJOL/agnkZ4GvllaLLBEbfEpdm/HDOQGFaP8wlnEGeXnARKm4zgb5Rv5bpHZd ChBg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=pe9qYCiq9ONPTgJazuBGPgzFMKe1KFkxoVkGJYu2pSE=; b=J3zsOHBGhzm+wvJapSsT0pwPjRU2975UVFluK7gf5w08+SnrYBCORV2++nK5elMsgE sfdhOshnoJgBr1i6YBIVq/rpiOhcY0mLASOdk7mdJmTdS68QC6A7eALuKoC2KBsEyF96 HUK9JZXcIpVw1LXzJpINcQL5+T2Vu/BQyyBgg7jaadsq+fSX+N462a8o4U7xrcvg2xud h2ZQxLAh03s5pzab+/sHshIwB96iGN8t9XKLpfS0/I5yYSm2c4KPtKmd0aRFz0/H5jgY wiHY4SeNsumDOPrdNkSwXY6FTSisqPRlpPCohdH+kWyy/5D3Eil/SVIpuSm/WdbeN7Hm t2nQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUypJbx1Hn0plizXx2b1VaL16kWcxl2LYexOFxGurjK/TjuNfu1 dyEQ7Iz4N+tdoEQ3WuJcFWVTRdW8d/KOPUGQ8aU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxMlCZ0r96Yt3PduTJKuqAvHtyT5FTq/1hzkxBwuesiJ8cfrfwkb9CorY8MJpO+mG41XheOpUiRSwOOQopDqh8= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:71da:: with SMTP id n26mr1593432uao.102.1578656366771; Fri, 10 Jan 2020 03:39:26 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <8EC91F90-2799-48EF-B083-D9C32F2D28F0@apple.com> <148DA586-6EDF-4DBE-9CB0-685C66745A7C@ericsson.com> <3A7DF177-3C7B-45AE-8677-BA1D0DC84A74@tessares.net> In-Reply-To: <3A7DF177-3C7B-45AE-8677-BA1D0DC84A74@tessares.net> From: Lucas Pardue Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 11:39:15 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Multipath (was: Re: Re-chartering for extension work) To: Olivier Bonaventure Cc: Mirja Kuehlewind , Quentin De Coninck , Jana Iyengar , Ryan Hamilton , Mark Nottingham , Christian Huitema , Lars Eggert , =?UTF-8?Q?Mikkel_Fahn=C3=B8e_J=C3=B8rgensen?= , IETF QUIC WG , Tommy Pauly Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f6c1aa059bc7939c" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 11:39:30 -0000 --000000000000f6c1aa059bc7939c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Oliver, all, Taking a very brief look over the 03 draft, if I grokked it properly I have an observation that may be interesting in the broader thinking about extending QUIC. In draft-deconinck-quic-multipath-03 [1] it states that because there are new path-related IDs, some frames need to be modified and then lists them: NEW_CONNECTION_ID, RETIRE_CONNECTION_ID and ACK. IIUC this would keep the type value but modify the frame contents. My model of thinking has been to assume that frame definitions are immutable, and that extensions that require tweaks to frames would define new ones. For example, draft-huitema-quic-1wd-00 [2] proposes a timestamped ack and so requires a "Time Stamp" field in the ACK frame. It does so by defining two new ACK frame types (vanilla, and one to contain ECN marking). So my observation is not about the proposals themselves but about the composability of extensions. Say for example someone wanted to combine mpquic with 1wd, would they modify the ACK frame or define a new one? >From an implementation perspective, making frame parsing condition on connection-level characteristics such as extensions seems like a bad idea. Frame types are cheap so lets use them. [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-deconinck-quic-multipath-03 [2] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-huitema-quic-1wd-00 On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 9:51 AM Olivier Bonaventure < olivier.bonaventure@tessares.net> wrote: > Dear Mirja, > > > As Tommy said, migration is already the first half of multipath support > for QUIC. So I expect it will be easier to add it to QUIC than it was for > TCP. > > > The main benefit of QUIC is that we do not need to take middleboxes into > account and can reason about the transport layer directly. > > I would at least be curious to spend some time on figuring out how much > (or how less) effort it would be. Maybe there is also another step before > going to full multipath support that could support the handover use case > better, e.g. sending redundant data on multi paths or something. I think = it > worth think about it. > > > > Please don=E2=80=99t do that. With QUIC, have a unique opportunity to de= sign an > architecturally clean and easily deployable multipath transport protocol. > We should not pollute this design with hacks and short term solutions tha= t > have been included in too many Internet protocols for various reasons. > > However, while I would like to see this discussion starting now, I think > it=E2=80=99s fine to wait for adoption of any draft until v1 is done. > > > As already explained in previous emails, Quentin De Coninck has leveraged > all the lessons learned from Multipath TCP in a Multipath QUIC design tha= t > has evolved in parallel with the standardisation work of QUIC v1. The > initial design was described in > > https://multipath-quic.org/conext17-deconinck.pdf and in > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-deconinck-multipath-quic-00.txt > > There was a running implementation on top of quic-go that is available > from https://multipath-quic..org > > The draft has evolved several times on > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-deconinck-quic-multipath/ > > The recent draft has been implemented on top of picoquic and was released > on pquic.org > > Quentin has studied these designs in details with many experiments, both > in the lab and in the wild on smartphones. He=E2=80=99d be ready to prese= nt this in > details to the working group if if eventually decides to work on the > multipath item of its charter. I would encourage the working group member= s > to start to read the last version of Quentin=E2=80=99s draft and provide = comments. > > > Best regards, > > > Olivier > > > ------------------------------ > > Disclaimer: https://www.tessares.net/mail-disclaimer/ > > > --000000000000f6c1aa059bc7939c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Oliver, all,

<= div>Taking a very brief look over the 03 draft, if I grokked it properly I = have an observation that may be interesting in the broader thinking about e= xtending QUIC.

In draft-deconinck-quic-multipath-0= 3 [1] it states that because there are new path-related IDs, some frames ne= ed to be modified and then lists them: NEW_CONNECTION_ID, RETIRE_CONNECTION= _ID and ACK. IIUC this would keep the type value but modify the frame conte= nts. My model of thinking has been to assume that frame definitions are imm= utable, and that extensions that require tweaks to frames would define new = ones.

For example, draft-huitema-quic-1wd-00 = [2] proposes a timestamped ack and so requires a "Time Stamp" fie= ld in the ACK frame. It does so by defining two new ACK frame types (vanill= a, and one to contain ECN marking).

So my obs= ervation is not about the proposals themselves but about the composability = of extensions. Say for example someone wanted to combine mpquic with 1wd, w= ould they modify the ACK frame or define a new one?

From an implementation perspective, making frame parsing condition on con= nection-level characteristics such as extensions seems like a bad idea. Fra= me types are cheap so lets use them.

[2] <= a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-huitema-quic-1wd-00">https://to= ols.ietf.org/html/draft-huitema-quic-1wd-00

<= /div>
O= n Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 9:51 AM Olivier Bonaventure <olivier.bonaventure@tessares.net> wr= ote:
Dear Mirja,

=C2= =A0
As Tommy said, migration is = already the first half of multipath support for QUIC. So I expect it will b= e easier to add it to QUIC than it was for TCP.

The main benefit of QUIC i= s that we do not need to take middleboxes into account and can reason about= the transport layer directly.=C2=A0

I woul= d at least be curious to spend some time on figuring out how much (or how l= ess) effort it would be. Maybe there is also another step before going to f= ull multipath support that could support the handover use case better, e.g.= sending redundant data on multi paths or something. I think it worth think= about it.

Please don=E2=80=99t do that. With QUIC, =C2=A0h= ave a unique opportunity to design an architecturally clean and easily depl= oyable multipath transport protocol. We should not pollute this design with= hacks and short term solutions that have been included in too many Interne= t protocols for various reasons.=C2=A0

<= div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-va= riant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start= ;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;te= xt-decoration:none">
However, = while I would like to see this discussion starting now, I think it=E2=80=99= s fine to wait for adoption of any draft until v1 is done.

As already explained in pre= vious emails, Quentin De Coninck has leveraged all the lessons learned from= Multipath TCP in a Multipath QUIC design that has evolved in parallel with= the standardisation work of QUIC v1. The initial design was described in


= There was a running implementation on top of quic-go that is available from= =C2=A0https://mult= ipath-quic..org

The draft has evolved several = times on=C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-de= coninck-quic-multipath/=C2=A0

The recent draft= has been implemented on top of picoquic and was released on pquic.org=C2=A0

Quentin has studied these designs in details with many experiments, both= in the lab and in the wild on smartphones. He=E2=80=99d be ready to presen= t this in details to the working group if if eventually decides to work on = the multipath item of its charter. I would encourage the working group memb= ers to start to read the last version of Quentin=E2=80=99s draft and provid= e comments.


Best regards,


Olivier





--000000000000f6c1aa059bc7939c-- From nobody Fri Jan 10 05:49:21 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCEC61208D3 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2020 05:49:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=litespeedtech-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TJ1xdlwnibiS for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2020 05:49:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt1-x835.google.com (mail-qt1-x835.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::835]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 95D3B1208D2 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2020 05:49:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt1-x835.google.com with SMTP id j5so1910079qtq.9 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2020 05:49:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=litespeedtech-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:mail-followup-to:references :mime-version:content-disposition:in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=3kEgso1MG9FTrgc13vwHvyZCGFx1rMsy1vAQ3VFVqMk=; b=KmkUTRRQO7Icce6ssjk4szyn2PWD8sgDXWhlEqCBT8ngLcYbyBPkuH9tIkhu1bJ04a gbpUVmYixa7tKn3xk+DNv+5FO1vy6sRjbvJtv2Hq8uelZpvOc4ihMYO4MI0UH02IJrxj BD2MguEmRRYHHvofzQqZCwggr/VxbvegXgd8nCJeFds60H+CDo2kUnTvX+1WA6HgMTmU 3JPVhbT3ePT2bIvpIvzPLdBSA+PqilS45+hwRvKfW/VJcY9rF0fL26WWDOnPJ4QrK3vF u+FYRCeGyg0UQlJPCOltOK3gsVOs47HnqZI3d54M49m2SFUlCsN58U0IT3sNxGJlVHT1 rIvg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id :mail-followup-to:references:mime-version:content-disposition :in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=3kEgso1MG9FTrgc13vwHvyZCGFx1rMsy1vAQ3VFVqMk=; b=GdSunO3v9fu0H5hcMdDS0GCgBNqZ9jQdwREXJl4VWjt/0TQ7txpoRBP8x+uORWlSqk wBlE9orPg+BEJ0QLvwgaOZT6FLgQsSMWeoFkuE4MnvXtrifLbgZab8SNRRfyO/HOf+K0 BYJdCjtu4Nh6f0Ad2sjaF137B+WPbK6bSMwAEBuJcNI02lPbpKRq8n83yUZnu6GzoEvr 90KRWnHuIq0jBBR5UW58oSZS+baAWsH6xWpXB0yJc9+/w4niX9rVtvKGvCxVp8OVeITv PC4Dw6rbpRS1NTam0qVAMXZTv1F7jl2kTsvB6GC3meB4hTl/20NntAcmXJoxnz/Xh8H5 TQHw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVX7koFWe5vutHiFtFMzy7iMiC+nyeq7MpNmAWU9YygZoFbEs7f U32AZF4kh5K7rJs2RwTwspHg8hM+DHg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqx/zSI916wmLpwppWx453SMnwFG63UxUH1S6McRRXkM8qELFsVSOADaUb6qXb9kOZdpY5hfAQ== X-Received: by 2002:aed:2c03:: with SMTP id f3mr2432928qtd.80.1578664155751; Fri, 10 Jan 2020 05:49:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from ubuntu-dmitri (ool-44c1d219.dyn.optonline.net. [68.193.210.25]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a144sm892118qkc.30.2020.01.10.05.49.15 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 10 Jan 2020 05:49:15 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 08:49:10 -0500 From: Dmitri Tikhonov To: Martin Thomson Cc: quic@ietf.org Subject: Re: Re-chartering for extension work Message-ID: <20200110134909.GA2650@ubuntu-dmitri> Mail-Followup-To: Martin Thomson , quic@ietf.org References: <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD27D34FD8@dggemm526-mbx.china.huawei.com> <18FA3A15-D580-43FD-A64C-E12E79D91419@mnot.net> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD27D35044@dggemm526-mbx.china.huawei.com> <1575ae9dcdcade6a8ec68289fd6b735eae04ed32.camel@ericsson.com> <6E58094ECC8D8344914996DAD28F1CCD27D3512A@dggemm526-mbx.china.huawei.com> <20200109140145.GC7263@ubuntu-dmitri> <72ef65b4-0a12-4fba-975b-a35b1a425ec7@www.fastmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <72ef65b4-0a12-4fba-975b-a35b1a425ec7@www.fastmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 13:49:20 -0000 Thank you for the comprehensive and insightful answer, Martin. On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 12:41:15PM +1100, Martin Thomson wrote: > On Fri, Jan 10, 2020, at 01:01, Dmitri Tikhonov wrote: > > What is the security evaluation process? Can just anyone do it > > (for example, myself sitting down and thinking about it really > > hard) or are there designated IETF people or entities that do > > this sort of thing? > > The goal is to reach consensus on what the properties of the > proposal are. Maybe we might not agree on the value proposition, > but we should be able to agree on the impact a proposal has to the > privacy and security of different participants. When we did the > spin bit, we formed a design team that discussed potential threats > and produced an assessment of the overall impact of the proposal. > That design team reported their findings to the group, people asked > questions that were answered, we each reached our own conclusions, and > ultimately we concluded that the findings were sound. That meant that > we were able to make a decision about adoption that wasn't confused > by a disagreement about the facts. > > It's probably not the case that everything needs a design team or that > level of process as long as we are able to reach consensus, but for > contentious or complicated topics, you could need even more support > or background work when it comes to establishing what the facts are. > For instance, when we did HPACK, Google funded academic research into > the proposal and the researchers set out to break the scheme. That was > hugely helpful in informing our decision to adopt that approach. > From nobody Fri Jan 10 07:29:16 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79BFE1200C5 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2020 07:29:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B2RuSVspvV5V for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2020 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h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=AroWTpLqJh5YPgro0b50g0RhpgZ8iug72ZQC2hQTHew=; b=t7/dj+TB6Xpk9EXOnEwDJQ0vMm9fVNtnLBZngt+CW54IhsmYFZAUP1eS1MscYkTjLs 2eR5hkgzsb5BHri/PUt+ZoGn9Zid5j5BlrJRm26CIGdqqzV2XGs1U892rfr2hWqgA1FV iJFI4HucA/vyMhCbBe12zqgIsGGOsdBwMeg97S3CCgZr07tLnIrtdxDtUq8zKJHPftBE 5kpy0q+UwYCH+l0P9Z464BVTP7TbP0zK037acuhn9qOiVjvYBz+wboYiouyWyOxVSefj 0bNzZZl9cE9v3mWwozshZaND+2w0icAF/YQl/f5tQOJ7/S1MaIXU54ejM4bVocXqaQ6W oSkg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVaHyDUcmVgaG6LKafXkaIrCOTjI/s0ImO1iva4gks5Bs1eQxvq dNXKqaXIpBJPL0JkOlS5zMdT2SJotzmHttUrd65ANQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqz4AjAVVIVRbvQlVg6ST40lltsWqtYQKbaskewXwwcSiEw3gWkzAwNOlzf0sHK6fkHTjnNQkLudKHX73bRuqdg= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:4849:: with SMTP id 9mr3734248lfy.11.1578697806427; Fri, 10 Jan 2020 15:10:06 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <43D8DACA-C1C4-449A-A4BC-4F0E6F8F1CAB@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: From: Eric Rescorla Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 15:09:30 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Consensus Calls for Late Stage Documents To: Ian Swett Cc: Mark Nottingham , Lars Eggert , IETF QUIC WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f5d0e7059bd13990" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 23:10:11 -0000 --000000000000f5d0e7059bd13990 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 2:31 PM Ian Swett wrote: > Thanks for the call, all these resolutions look great to me, but I think > the PR is incorrect for the two Retry issues. > > On Sun, Jan 5, 2020 at 10:57 PM Mark Nottingham wrote: > >> Happy New Year, Working Group. >> >> The following issues have proposals for resolution, and discussion so far >> seems to support consensus to accept them. If you object, please do so on >> the issue or in response to this message (changing the Subject >> appropriately!). Absent any pushback, we'll direct the editors to >> incorporate them late next week. >> >> See for the current >> state of issues in the Late Stage process, itself defined at < >> https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md>. >> >> * #3274: Encrypting Retry token >> The proposal is >> > I believe the proposal is https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3120 > I added some editorial comments here but I can live with the substantive outcome, The rest of these look fine. -Ekr >> * #3247: I am concerned the congestion control text is too permissive. >> The proposal is >> >> * #3245: Make RFC 6928 normative >> The proposal is >> >> * #3244: Can we make a normative ref to RFC8085? >> The proposal is >> >> * #3243: Add caution when using IW10 and fragmentation >> The proposal is >> >> * #3152: Client storage of tokens should be independent of other stored >> state >> The proposal is >> >> * #3142: It is unspecified how a server sends Handshake packets during / >> after migration >> The proposal is >> >> * #3094: congestion window increase on every ACKed packet could result in >> bursty sends >> The proposal is >> >> * #3014: Handling of corrupt Retry packets >> The proposal is >> > Also https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3120 > >> >> * #2863: unrecoverable loss pattern leads to deadlock >> The proposal is >> >> * #2789: Use a higher seed RTT for new paths >> The proposal is to close with no action. >> >> * #2744: Idle Timer Can Fire Even with Outstanding Data to Send >> The proposal is >> >> * #2602: Idle timeout needs more description and a recommendation >> The proposal is >> >> >> -- >> Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >> >> --000000000000f5d0e7059bd13990 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 2:31 PM Ian Sw= ett <ianswett=3D40google.= com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
Thanks for the call, all these reso= lutions look great to me, but I think the PR is incorrect for the two Retry= issues.

On Sun, Jan 5, 2020 at 10:57 PM Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Happy New Year, Working Gr= oup.

The following issues have proposals for resolution, and discussion so far s= eems to support consensus to accept them. If you object, please do so on th= e issue or in response to this message (changing the Subject appropriately!= ). Absent any pushback, we'll direct the editors to incorporate them la= te next week.

See <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/projec= ts/5> for the current state of issues in the Late Stage process, its= elf defined at <https://github.c= om/quicwg/base-drafts/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md>.

* #3274: Encrypting Retry token
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The proposal is <https://github.com= /quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3274>
I believe the = proposal is=C2=A0https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3120=C2= =A0

I added some editoria= l comments here but I can live with the substantive outcome,
=
The rest of these look fine.

-E= kr


* #3247: I am concerned the congestion control text is too permissive.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The proposal is <https://github.com/q= uicwg/base-drafts/pull/3248>

* #3245: Make RFC 6928 normative
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The proposal is <https://github.com/q= uicwg/base-drafts/pull/3287>

* #3244: Can we make a normative ref to=C2=A0 RFC8085?
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The proposal is <https://github.com/q= uicwg/base-drafts/pull/3248>

* #3243: Add caution when using IW10 and fragmentation
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The proposal is <https://github.com/q= uicwg/base-drafts/pull/3280>

* #3152: Client storage of tokens should be independent of other stored sta= te
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The proposal is <https://github.com/q= uicwg/base-drafts/pull/3150>

* #3142: It is unspecified how a server sends Handshake packets during / af= ter migration
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The proposal is <https://github.com/q= uicwg/base-drafts/pull/3145>

* #3094: congestion window increase on every ACKed packet could result in b= ursty sends
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The proposal is <https://github.com/q= uicwg/base-drafts/pull/3232>

* #3014: Handling of corrupt Retry packets
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The proposal is <https://github.com= /quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3274>

* #2863: unrecoverable loss pattern leads to deadlock
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The proposal is <https://github.com/q= uicwg/base-drafts/pull/3145>

* #2789: Use a higher seed RTT for new paths
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The proposal is to close with no action.

* #2744: Idle Timer Can Fire Even with Outstanding Data to Send
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The proposal is <https://github.com/q= uicwg/base-drafts/pull/3266>

* #2602: Idle timeout needs more description and a recommendation
=C2=A0 =C2=A0The proposal is <https://github.com/q= uicwg/base-drafts/pull/3099>


--
Mark Nottingham=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.mnot.net/

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Sun, 12 Jan 2020 02:32:32 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="===============4891505454923814729==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Repository Activity Summary Bot To: quic@ietf.org Subject: Weekly github digest (QUIC Activity Summary) Message-Id: <20200112073232.6C51A80061@mailuser.nyi.internal> Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2020 02:32:32 -0500 (EST) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2020 07:32:40 -0000 --===============4891505454923814729== MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format="flowed" Events without label "editorial" Issues ------ * quicwg/base-drafts (+7/-0/=F0=9F=92=AC33) 7 issues created: - Padding outside QUIC packet (by tatsuhiro-t) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3333=20 - Composability of QUIC Extensions (by marten-seemann) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3332=20 - MSS Clamping Support (by TheBlueMatt) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3330=20 - Clarify what the "first Initial packet" is (by dtikhonov) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3329=20 - recovery: broken links to -tls (by reschke) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3328=20 - Grease HTTP/3 error codes (by martinthomson) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3325 [-http]=20 - Confusing SNI recommendation in the HTTP/3 spec (by RyanAtGoogle) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3324=20 8 issues received 33 new comments: - #3332 Composability of QUIC Extensions (11 by DavidSchinazi, LPardue, M= ikeBishop, dtikhonov, ekr, huitema, ianswett) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3332=20 - #3330 MSS Clamping Support (6 by TheBlueMatt, ianswett, martinthomson) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3330 [-transport]=20 - #3329 Clarify what the "first Initial packet" is (1 by ianswett) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3329 [-transport]=20 - #3325 Grease HTTP/3 error codes (1 by LPardue) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3325 [-http]=20 - #3324 Confusing SNI recommendation in the HTTP/3 spec (6 by MikeBishop,= RyanAtGoogle, davidben, martinthomson) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3324 [-http]=20 - #3317 Note that initial packets coalesced with other packets to make a = 1200 byte UDP datagram could be split up by the network (1 by huitema) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3317 [-transport]=20 - #3304 ACK generation recommendation (2 by mirjak, mjoras) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3304 [-transport] [design]= =20 - #3275 Why are there two ways of associating push with requests? (5 by M= ikeBishop, RyanAtGoogle, ianswett, kazuho, martinthomson) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3275 [-http] [design]=20 Pull requests ------------- * quicwg/base-drafts (+4/-0/=F0=9F=92=AC7) 4 pull requests submitted: - Unknown error codes are equivalent to NO_ERROR (by MikeBishop) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3331 [-http]=20 - Make SNI more clearly mandatory (by martinthomson) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3326 [-http]=20 - Require QUICv1 for HTTP/3 (by MikeBishop) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3323 [-http]=20 - TLS: update xref to HTTP/3 (by LPardue) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3318=20 4 pull requests received 7 new comments: - #3326 Make SNI more clearly mandatory (2 by ekr) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3326 [-http]=20 - #3314 Editorial suggestion against #3313 (1 by janaiyengar) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3314=20 - #3312 What if an ACK frame doesn't fit in a packet (1 by janaiyengar) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3312 [-transport]=20 - #3309 Remove DUPLICATE_PUSH and allow duplicate PUSH_PROMISE (3 by LPar= due, RyanAtGoogle) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3309 [-http]=20 Repositories tracked by this digest: ----------------------------------- * https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts --===============4891505454923814729== Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Weekly github digest (QUIC Activity Summary)

Sunday January 12, 2020

Events without label "editorial"

Issues

quicwg/base-drafts (+7/-0/=F0=9F=92=AC33)

7 issues created:

8 issues received 33 new comments:

Pull requests

quicwg/base-drafts (+4/-0/=F0=9F=92=AC7)

4 pull requests submitted:

4 pull requests received 7 new comments:

Repositories tracked by this digest:

--===============4891505454923814729==-- From nobody Mon Jan 13 23:57:02 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A71112010E for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2020 23:57:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JkBesgzeS1wY for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2020 23:56:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr1-x430.google.com (mail-wr1-x430.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::430]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1EB7612003F for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2020 23:56:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr1-x430.google.com with SMTP id c14so11111475wrn.7 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 2020 23:56:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=3lCdpNLaFxnKehzOEQiNlHssXen9NwVDN6p67dLK5xE=; b=t8m8GE3KfJa3b+oYg9BQhWK5fSvRAzhh+uMnQfgTXehai2mYwDPvJIgzIqUDbpgkcJ 3xWmOuPRzce8mAbPXsbiLh99R1zXivt/v4tY53aZDwtmxTJ/PXZ2Ed92UAxVBkhA9IiJ Z5JbtASfO/tq0pvCbs+OPMZ9ZOP6uOt0EQAXTqL3vKQdfRkYw77tHpaGmjAgGiMcQgFv 1T3jzvMt083A2kXMVeXVWvz1VEW4+1Nl9YiENNcbvDiXB3VjHPFFlb5UeJ6BCrGYS8tj d1LpO6sb3Xuh0L5qbLpMVtGEMpiR7u4cQf46isIh56urPpx2oC6mEHTMYEe2Z/+CD/wG pUUg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=3lCdpNLaFxnKehzOEQiNlHssXen9NwVDN6p67dLK5xE=; b=Wp+T+Frl2pE2eeWP5KrEiXIDyX+F/KkxO+SpB0uru8UUllVei9vudS/2MmDzVLlL42 92CXVP33mOI4itxcCa9kdsyB8hp37XgJaQrXW3AnJOQ8ajhcJrasfuqd/wh62AdVvnhe CDo5+4YZVhOfu4mcVuQxdSdEVHsqbHJ7J9oiuX4v60XNGbHAC/9b2eDDCd018SdhSTuS FbS81K1G3FToeOvk/flBi1NVqK+xHHZBQBvLc+CLpgYso5knEasAUMqraTj0+aJ0Fxqi Ekv8GL1YTxuetmf2ciWHWwJ4orBdOY+FPllwOHffkmyMtjNn3viTNDpOX0PLrh3gO3e4 iQ8w== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWHlntQ8MusEOnNKCxDMHm6DsecfTnwPz6VxIBcKTd5VM5sNO8V zdSv/6W2Lye9Zk2BMIrDV0YRLUye6dpTUopyhR8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxX0UK0ZIVx5M4Hrg4vrNB2su8eHylzFq/c9HMMCUxKgtzLWb7L5ilKpeUnNOFJEWoDpQ/vVlLKaUZCtB7pzYk= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:5704:: with SMTP id a4mr23326582wrv.198.1578988617672; Mon, 13 Jan 2020 23:56:57 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5A21DBF8-996D-410D-A868-95D640C39298@mnot.net> In-Reply-To: <5A21DBF8-996D-410D-A868-95D640C39298@mnot.net> From: Tal Mizrahi Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 09:56:46 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Call for Adoption: draft-pauly-quic-datagram To: Mark Nottingham Cc: IETF QUIC WG , Lars Eggert Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a92db8059c14ef71" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 07:57:01 -0000 --000000000000a92db8059c14ef71 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I support the adoption of this draft. One comment regarding Section 5.3 "Congestion Control": it looks like the data sent over DATAGRAM frames is (by definition) not sensitive to occasional packet loss, while the congestion control mechanism may be sensitive to occasional packet loss (depending on what we mean by "occasional"). It may be a good idea to add some discussion about this to Section 5.3. Specifically, I believe that when DATAGRAM frames are used, it may be desirable for an implementation to use a congestion control mechanism that can tolerate occasional packet loss without significantly reducing the rate. Cheers, Tal. On Wed, Dec 11, 2019 at 11:36 PM Mark Nottingham wrote: > This is a Call for Adoption of the following document: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pauly-quic-datagram-05 > > The Working Group has discussed this document for some time, most recently > in Singapore. > > Please state whether you support adoption of the document by the Working > Group, and any additional information that you feel may be helpful. > > This call will end on 15 January 2020. > > Regards, > > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ > > --000000000000a92db8059c14ef71 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I support the adoption of this draft.

<= /div>
One comment regarding Section 5.3 "Congestion Control":= it looks like the data sent over DATAGRAM frames is (by definition) not se= nsitive to occasional=C2=A0packet loss, while the congestion control mechan= ism may be sensitive to occasional packet loss (depending on what we mean b= y "occasional"). It may be a good idea to add some discussion abo= ut this to Section 5.3. Specifically, I believe that when DATAGRAM frames a= re used, it may be desirable for an implementation to use a congestion cont= rol mechanism that can tolerate occasional packet loss without significantl= y reducing the rate.

Cheers,
Tal.
<= br>
On Wed,= Dec 11, 2019 at 11:36 PM Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:
This is a Call for Adoption of the following document:
=C2=A0 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pau= ly-quic-datagram-05

The Working Group has discussed this document for some time, most recently = in Singapore.

Please state whether you support adoption of the document by the Working Gr= oup, and any additional information that you feel may be helpful.

This call will end on 15 January 2020.

Regards,

--
Mark Nottingham=C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.mnot.net/

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boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0459_01D5CB82.96917600" ------=_NextPart_001_0459_01D5CB82.96917600 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi I too believe that this is a good idea and therefore support it. I am however not convinced that that transmission of DATAGRAM frames should mandate a different congestion control. While the scenario you outline below can hold in networks with small buffers, you will likely not achieve the desired goal in cellular networks which still can have a large delay threshold for packet discards. /Ingemar From: Tal Mizrahi Sent: den 14 januari 2020 08:57 To: Mark Nottingham Cc: IETF QUIC WG ; Lars Eggert Subject: Re: Call for Adoption: draft-pauly-quic-datagram I support the adoption of this draft. One comment regarding Section 5.3 "Congestion Control": it looks like the data sent over DATAGRAM frames is (by definition) not sensitive to occasional packet loss, while the congestion control mechanism may be sensitive to occasional packet loss (depending on what we mean by "occasional"). It may be a good idea to add some discussion about this to Section 5.3. Specifically, I believe that when DATAGRAM frames are used, it may be desirable for an implementation to use a congestion control mechanism that can tolerate occasional packet loss without significantly reducing the rate. Cheers, Tal. On Wed, Dec 11, 2019 at 11:36 PM Mark Nottingham > wrote: This is a Call for Adoption of the following document: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pauly-quic-datagram-05 The Working Group has discussed this document for some time, most recently in Singapore. Please state whether you support adoption of the document by the Working Group, and any additional information that you feel may be helpful. This call will end on 15 January 2020. Regards, -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ ------=_NextPart_001_0459_01D5CB82.96917600 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi

 

I too = believe that this is a good idea and therefore support it. =

 

I am however not convinced that that transmission of = DATAGRAM frames should mandate a different congestion control. While the = scenario you outline below can hold in networks with small buffers, you = will likely not achieve the desired goal in cellular networks which = still can have a large delay threshold for packet = discards.

 

/Ingemar

 

From: Tal = Mizrahi <tal.mizrahi.phd@gmail.com>
Sent: den 14 = januari 2020 08:57
To: Mark Nottingham = <mnot@mnot.net>
Cc: IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>; = Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>
Subject: Re: Call for = Adoption: draft-pauly-quic-datagram

 

I = support the adoption of this draft.

 

One comment regarding Section 5.3 "Congestion = Control": it looks like the data sent over DATAGRAM frames is (by = definition) not sensitive to occasional packet loss, while the = congestion control mechanism may be sensitive to occasional packet loss = (depending on what we mean by "occasional"). It may be a good = idea to add some discussion about this to Section 5.3. Specifically, I = believe that when DATAGRAM frames are used, it may be desirable for an = implementation to use a congestion control mechanism that can tolerate = occasional packet loss without significantly reducing the = rate.

 

Cheers,

Tal.

 

On = Wed, Dec 11, 2019 at 11:36 PM Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> = wrote:

This is a Call for Adoption of the = following document:
  https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pauly-quic-datagram-0= 5

The Working Group has discussed this document for some = time, most recently in Singapore.

Please state whether you = support adoption of the document by the Working Group, and any = additional information that you feel may be helpful.

This call = will end on 15 January 2020.

Regards,

--
Mark = Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/

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quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D41C120219; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 00:14:52 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool To: Cc: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com, lars@eggert.org, quic@ietf.org, quic-chairs@ietf.org Subject: quic - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 107 X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.116.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <157907609200.8818.15772597577738087357.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 00:14:52 -0800 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 08:14:55 -0000 A new meeting session request has just been submitted by Lars Eggert, a Chair of the quic working group. --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: QUIC Area Name: Transport Area Session Requester: Lars Eggert Number of Sessions: 2 Length of Session(s): 2 Hours, 2 Hours Number of Attendees: 200 Conflicts to Avoid: Chair Conflict: httpbis Technology Overlap: mptcp tls iccrg tcpm tsvwg tsvarea saag Key Participant Conflict: doh capport abcd People who must be present: Sean Turner Mark Nottingham Magnus Westerlund Jana Iyengar Martin Thomson Brian Trammell Mirja Kuehlewind Lars Eggert Mike Bishop Ian Swett Lucas Pardue Alan Frindell Resources Requested: Experimental Room Setup (U-Shape and classroom, subject to availability) Special Requests: Two consecutive days early in the week, if possible. 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charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable WG,=20 I have appointed Lucas Pardue as a third WG chair for the QUIC WG. Please welcome him in his new role in the WG.=20 Appointing a third WG chair is in preparation for Mark Nottingham stepping = down when the QUIC version 1 and its HTTP work is done.=20 =20 Cheers Magnus Westerlund=20 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Networks, Ericsson Research ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Torshamnsgatan 23 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --=-/GSZLCfSBpsh+vC5C9AQ Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADCABgkqhkiG9w0BBwEAAKCCEtww ggYHMIID76ADAgECAhALRm3NcHtuMGWutmt5cXntMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBCwUAMEcxCzAJBgNVBAYT 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--000000000000e0d0a7059c2ec5bc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Congratulations Lucas, welcome and thanks for your help. On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 8:03 AM Magnus Westerlund wrote: > WG, > > I have appointed Lucas Pardue as a third WG chair for the QUIC WG. Please > welcome him in his new role in the WG. > > Appointing a third WG chair is in preparation for Mark Nottingham stepping > down > when the QUIC version 1 and its HTTP work is done. > > Cheers > > Magnus Westerlund > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Networks, Ericsson Research > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 > <+46%2010%20714%2082%2087> > Torshamnsgatan 23 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 > <+46%2073%20094%2090%2079> > SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > --000000000000e0d0a7059c2ec5bc Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Congratulations Lucas, welcome and thanks for your help.
On= Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 8:03 AM Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org= > wrote:
= WG,

I have appointed Lucas Pardue as a third WG chair for the QUIC WG. Please welcome him in his new role in the WG.

Appointing a third WG chair is in preparation for Mark Nottingham stepping = down
when the QUIC version 1 and its HTTP work is done.

Cheers

Magnus Westerlund


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Networks, Ericsson Research
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| = Phone=C2=A0 +46 10 7148287
Torshamnsgatan 23=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Mobile = +46 73 0949079
SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------


--000000000000e0d0a7059c2ec5bc-- From nobody Wed Jan 15 10:09:55 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F0CA12087F for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 10:09:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Bf3jHUpdn6vH for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 10:08:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x133.google.com (mail-lf1-x133.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 50E9212085B for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 10:08:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x133.google.com with SMTP id r14so13453343lfm.5 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 10:08:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=zmx4+gFZJRGFQFaYR/CJuJeoziut2QcU5LupuE6E5+g=; b=QDwzS105PoytXvS+erHE687iwJ48VdCwTSWRMGalLdprDXgW8ilQ3MquN18zEJKoQj OHzVROMlv2d6yJujL8XD3V6prZ+cy859TcmT/2457Jj/dSUGFm4/kb/prKvMTEQv4wA4 JlNWlXkHvES3DWBt+tCbHR2X6/WHsIoF47nmHqKsZYc0YcQBz3m01b+3EbCnuzL0EkkK l53D3rdTH5J7qCaeuQmdHd3s8cZzpRsP3i3UHmuUWYNXjXalXGJwG+GkDlyMDvMs/6Cv QPqhImXQMOW5kUtqgY/9R+Czb2aDI4ruQv47aLaBowH4mpWmc1aL2VGc+ZFE0VfflCLa ORxw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=zmx4+gFZJRGFQFaYR/CJuJeoziut2QcU5LupuE6E5+g=; b=iMDrpjbYDXN2h2OergwF77Pa7USQSj8aZWgQBpDfoFQKBDjfW/r2fwUdmGd1qjOGdP pY/xctOM1taG96HXaY7OiWrEcvR9UCQchdnvrrYEVVqOkz5oHwOTu2c2mxvDaulXYC36 tGfXslukXYu2KTTVEEMiY9ms+ch1rREXRKHrlcT8xhWlTwI/xH0dAYqf9ToVcScIlzaH ugMwgtSRgGLjOvuYlV7aiTwALGnyRY55Nn9EWT+Ngplmx1qWewhwX3XPSF1FnczogSKS 6Lb7VRmj81y2tuxAbhBrBzCGBzYYHXaSDxMEEZYQ6mB0RwaD7PYw7WMNoUnMBsSoh9p7 C+pA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAX7vN0uFOLlIjpkiaxNg/DDOK/+lEoPpbkrdDc/uX1mfA2DrmxP TBi9OQdaycE4xjrzQXTymMJTFBVPRTXDQfjsWL4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwtxmo2/Gn9+BFW2xv5Of5QHitT4KtHDZKncI8Gnrea45vcYzwVWM0EAc1ECtqMggki6uQY+bzoLgQhg2n3boc= X-Received: by 2002:a19:4ac2:: with SMTP id x185mr70947lfa.131.1579111735575; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 10:08:55 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Jana Iyengar Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 10:08:44 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: WG Chair Appointment To: Ian Swett Cc: Magnus Westerlund , Lucas Pardue , "quic@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000f4a70059c319a9a" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 18:09:02 -0000 --0000000000000f4a70059c319a9a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Excellent choice, Magnus! Welcome to your fun role as our overlord, Lucas! On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 6:47 AM Ian Swett wrote: > Congratulations Lucas, welcome and thanks for your help. > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 8:03 AM Magnus Westerlund 40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > >> WG, >> >> I have appointed Lucas Pardue as a third WG chair for the QUIC WG. Please >> welcome him in his new role in the WG. >> >> Appointing a third WG chair is in preparation for Mark Nottingham >> stepping down >> when the QUIC version 1 and its HTTP work is done. >> >> Cheers >> >> Magnus Westerlund >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Networks, Ericsson Research >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 >> <+46%2010%20714%2082%2087> >> Torshamnsgatan 23 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 >> <+46%2073%20094%2090%2079> >> SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> >> --0000000000000f4a70059c319a9a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Excellent choice, Magnus! Welcome to your fun role as our = overlord, Lucas!

On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 6:47 AM Ian Swett <ianswett=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
Congratulations Lucas, welcome and thanks for your help.
On We= d, Jan 15, 2020 at 8:03 AM Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund=3D40ericsson.com= @dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
WG,

I have appointed Lucas Pardue as a third WG chair for the QUIC WG. Please welcome him in his new role in the WG.

Appointing a third WG chair is in preparation for Mark Nottingham stepping = down
when the QUIC version 1 and its HTTP work is done.

Cheers

Magnus Westerlund


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Networks, Ericsson Research
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| = Phone=C2=A0 +46 10 7148287
Torshamnsgatan 23=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Mobile = +46 73 0949079
SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------


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Wed, 15 Jan 2020 13:46:42 -0800 (PST) Sender: vidhi_goel@apple.com From: Vidhi Goel Message-id: <247B1759-7D5C-436D-B6C5-BC2AF2479366@apple.com> Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_E9160C1C-6BD8-4A86-B7D5-B1A297F20927" MIME-version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3616\)) Subject: Re: Consensus Calls for Late Stage Documents Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 13:46:42 -0800 In-reply-to: <43D8DACA-C1C4-449A-A4BC-4F0E6F8F1CAB@mnot.net> Cc: IETF QUIC WG , Lars Eggert , Christoph Paasch , Eric Kinnear , Tommy Pauly , Rui Cunha Paulo To: Mark Nottingham References: <43D8DACA-C1C4-449A-A4BC-4F0E6F8F1CAB@mnot.net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3616) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2020-01-15_03:, , signatures=0 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 21:46:58 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_E9160C1C-6BD8-4A86-B7D5-B1A297F20927 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Mark, > * #3094: congestion window increase on every ACKed packet could result = in bursty sends > The proposal is We would like to hold off on this change as we are working on specifying = Pacing mechanism which would allow the implementations to decouple = congestion window increase from sending rate and thus eliminate the need = for 2MSS limit during slow start. Below is the PR: https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3351 = I will create a issue to start the discussion. Thanks, Vidhi > On Jan 5, 2020, at 7:56 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: >=20 > Happy New Year, Working Group. >=20 > The following issues have proposals for resolution, and discussion so = far seems to support consensus to accept them. If you object, please do = so on the issue or in response to this message (changing the Subject = appropriately!). Absent any pushback, we'll direct the editors to = incorporate them late next week. >=20 > See for the current = state of issues in the Late Stage process, itself defined at = . >=20 > * #3274: Encrypting Retry token > The proposal is >=20 > * #3247: I am concerned the congestion control text is too permissive. > The proposal is >=20 > * #3245: Make RFC 6928 normative > The proposal is >=20 > * #3244: Can we make a normative ref to RFC8085? > The proposal is >=20 > * #3243: Add caution when using IW10 and fragmentation=20 > The proposal is >=20 > * #3152: Client storage of tokens should be independent of other = stored state > The proposal is >=20 > * #3142: It is unspecified how a server sends Handshake packets during = / after migration > The proposal is >=20 > * #3094: congestion window increase on every ACKed packet could result = in bursty sends > The proposal is >=20 > * #3014: Handling of corrupt Retry packets > The proposal is >=20 > * #2863: unrecoverable loss pattern leads to deadlock > The proposal is >=20 > * #2789: Use a higher seed RTT for new paths > The proposal is to close with no action. >=20 > * #2744: Idle Timer Can Fire Even with Outstanding Data to Send > The proposal is >=20 > * #2602: Idle timeout needs more description and a recommendation > The proposal is >=20 >=20 > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >=20 --Apple-Mail=_E9160C1C-6BD8-4A86-B7D5-B1A297F20927 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Hi = Mark,

* #3094: congestion window increase on every = ACKed packet could result in bursty sends
  The = proposal is <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3232>

We would like to hold off on = this change as we are working on specifying Pacing mechanism which would = allow the implementations to decouple congestion window increase from = sending rate and thus eliminate the need for 2MSS limit during slow = start.
Below is the PR:
https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3351

I will create a issue to = start the discussion.

Thanks,
Vidhi

On Jan 5, 2020, at 7:56 PM, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> = wrote:

Happy New Year, Working Group.

The= following issues have proposals for resolution, and discussion so far = seems to support consensus to accept them. If you object, please do so = on the issue or in response to this message (changing the Subject = appropriately!). Absent any pushback, we'll direct the editors to = incorporate them late next week.

See <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/projects/5> for = the current state of issues in the Late Stage process, itself defined at = <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.= md>.

* #3274: Encrypting Retry = token
  The proposal is <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3274>

* #3247: I am concerned the congestion control = text is too permissive.
  The proposal is = <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3248>

* #3245: Make RFC 6928 normative
=   The proposal is <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3287>

* #3244: Can we make a normative ref to =  RFC8085?
  The proposal is <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3248>

* #3243: Add caution when using IW10 and = fragmentation
  The proposal is <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3280>

* #3152: Client storage of tokens should be = independent of other stored state
  The = proposal is <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3150>

* #3142: It is unspecified how a server sends = Handshake packets during / after migration
=   The proposal is <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3145>

* #3094: congestion window increase on every = ACKed packet could result in bursty sends
  The = proposal is <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3232>

* #3014: Handling of corrupt Retry packets
  The proposal is <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3274>

* #2863: unrecoverable loss pattern leads to = deadlock
  The proposal is <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3145>

* #2789: Use a higher seed RTT for new = paths
  The proposal is to close with no = action.

* #2744: Idle Timer Can Fire Even = with Outstanding Data to Send
  The proposal is = <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3266>

* #2602: Idle timeout needs more description = and a recommendation
  The proposal is <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3099>


--
Mark = Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/


= --Apple-Mail=_E9160C1C-6BD8-4A86-B7D5-B1A297F20927-- From nobody Wed Jan 15 14:16:23 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFCB01209C9 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 14:16:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jB4v33ITkLyE for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 14:16:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x12c.google.com (mail-lf1-x12c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4CC3D120992 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 14:16:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x12c.google.com with SMTP id 15so13990170lfr.2 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 14:16:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ZUIN//FB/8J2qKsa2t1oaRTpemlNtaUmx1awpPjtLso=; b=k5TXpfxIaEBrPMUN+Ibx+vfwXeum7Slviv2gdVcv3gT8L9BTE0UNS/Xi2AxLBeP6Mo z81ObmEgw3RJQLqVXFEh/CNQQtuKBmvmJ2/0Z6yxBBFAIh+UvAb28KLmdBNEoTZz09a5 2lYfaM1gyR6WW7sBQRg3DEVToMcOCrDur14/eiOMeR3Emanw2cYsnGQDCY7vMR/X3wAC OJ+IL2fhmgM0PcLgnFKBOOkZ+7uFW6/nEAzs8rA2ga2wwETHPq28nMdZnAq34pte18D3 NbVl9eq9NSnMAT8gMC9e/DkjKKkCOhFcWi7/DxnG9KVypP6Uv68T9SCi7uq8d2usNvLW Ka+Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ZUIN//FB/8J2qKsa2t1oaRTpemlNtaUmx1awpPjtLso=; b=P4anMpNcXbyJBD+Eb3jbCTKZxycWth9+WumnulZ4qZejdTyIHo3a3FK/fBeXO2vrD/ Wqcr41dma/kl01zHhHBGyefkF2tDOiDy0/ztMk6s8Fr7lUIvaZHFRXAAEjXcYMmL3n6/ Y+xQzwGYRDGv7gmbS4fVXCYxHDvr+lq698XTMGBjUQJhih2MDvBTw4wT7X6gvG9TnTNy Khnx21Wv/1RgnCObRwUdsbVWExaO4Pw1p2sAW8InFg/cC32kT841+qaCRJsToh8+CByK uX1GHocXf3QYA7l+SBTkU0VsmyHRkDXL6PJLgIV11eADM1n+Xdx2XB8e3qlL76usPCBN Z9Jg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWhWDDtUGrRsbJ6g3+aP+JO3RUZY5I7qj7wyAHtFq1mpCNfIMq+ ERYK1EL+fbaAJMDMBT3Zdg/6bg0hJrBrHlrlf+g= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyZ+WvoUK8dZdMBFvKK4n+I94qfMMfFUR8TUxygQj18iL6heaLbKUxI5/QF4D5qFT923Sa6n6Fp9xxYfBrNsfk= X-Received: by 2002:a19:dc1e:: with SMTP id t30mr616483lfg.34.1579126577439; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 14:16:17 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <43D8DACA-C1C4-449A-A4BC-4F0E6F8F1CAB@mnot.net> <247B1759-7D5C-436D-B6C5-BC2AF2479366@apple.com> In-Reply-To: <247B1759-7D5C-436D-B6C5-BC2AF2479366@apple.com> From: Jana Iyengar Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 14:16:05 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Consensus Calls for Late Stage Documents To: Vidhi Goel Cc: Mark Nottingham , IETF QUIC WG , Eric Kinnear , Rui Cunha Paulo , Lars Eggert , Christoph Paasch , Tommy Pauly Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b42789059c350e54" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 22:16:22 -0000 --000000000000b42789059c350e54 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Vidhi, The current draft already recommends use of a pacer, and your PR 3351 suggests a mechanism that an endpoint can use for doing it. That still doesn't obviate the earlier need to specify a requirement for endpoints that do not implement any pacing. Basically, codifying an example pacer does not change the premise of PR 3232 - that implementations might choose to not pace. Said differently, even if we were to specify one way of pacing, as PR 3351 does, PR 3232 still applies. I don't think we need to hold off on PR 3232 based on PR 3351. - jana On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 1:47 PM Vidhi Goel wrote: > Hi Mark, > > * #3094: congestion window increase on every ACKed packet could result in > bursty sends > The proposal is > > > We would like to hold off on this change as we are working on specifying > Pacing mechanism which would allow the implementations to decouple > congestion window increase from sending rate and thus eliminate the need > for 2MSS limit during slow start. > Below is the PR: > https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3351 > > I will create a issue to start the discussion. > > Thanks, > Vidhi > > On Jan 5, 2020, at 7:56 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: > > Happy New Year, Working Group. > > The following issues have proposals for resolution, and discussion so far > seems to support consensus to accept them. If you object, please do so on > the issue or in response to this message (changing the Subject > appropriately!). Absent any pushback, we'll direct the editors to > incorporate them late next week. > > See for the current > state of issues in the Late Stage process, itself defined at < > https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md>. > > * #3274: Encrypting Retry token > The proposal is > > * #3247: I am concerned the congestion control text is too permissive. > The proposal is > > * #3245: Make RFC 6928 normative > The proposal is > > * #3244: Can we make a normative ref to RFC8085? > The proposal is > > * #3243: Add caution when using IW10 and fragmentation > The proposal is > > * #3152: Client storage of tokens should be independent of other stored > state > The proposal is > > * #3142: It is unspecified how a server sends Handshake packets during / > after migration > The proposal is > > * #3094: congestion window increase on every ACKed packet could result in > bursty sends > The proposal is > > * #3014: Handling of corrupt Retry packets > The proposal is > > * #2863: unrecoverable loss pattern leads to deadlock > The proposal is > > * #2789: Use a higher seed RTT for new paths > The proposal is to close with no action. > > * #2744: Idle Timer Can Fire Even with Outstanding Data to Send > The proposal is > > * #2602: Idle timeout needs more description and a recommendation > The proposal is > > > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ > > > --000000000000b42789059c350e54 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Vidhi,

The current draft already recomm= ends use of a pacer, and your PR 3351 suggests a mechanism that an endpoint= can use for doing it. That still doesn't obviate the earlier need to s= pecify a requirement for endpoints that do not implement any pacing.
<= div>
Basically, codifying an example pacer does not change th= e premise of PR 3232 - that implementations=C2=A0might choose to not pace.<= /div>

Said differently, even if we were to specify one w= ay of pacing, as PR 3351 does, PR 3232 still applies. I don't think we = need to hold off on PR 3232 based on PR 3351.

- ja= na

On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 1:47 PM Vidhi Goel <vidhi_goel=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org> w= rote:
Hi Mark,

* #3094: congestion window increase on every ACKed packet could = result in bursty sends
=C2=A0=C2=A0The proposal is <https://github= .com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3232>

We wou= ld like to hold off on this change as we are working on specifying Pacing m= echanism which would allow the implementations to decouple congestion windo= w increase from sending rate and thus eliminate the need for 2MSS limit dur= ing slow start.
Below is the PR:

I will create a i= ssue to start the discussion.

Thanks,
Vi= dhi

On Jan 5, 2020, at 7:= 56 PM, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:

Happy New Year, Working = Group.

The following issues have proposals for resolution, and discu= ssion so far seems to support consensus to accept them. If you object, plea= se do so on the issue or in response to this message (changing the Subject = appropriately!). Absent any pushback, we'll direct the editors to incor= porate them late next week.

See <https://github.com/quicwg/ba= se-drafts/projects/5> for the current state of issues in the Late St= age process, itself defined at <https://github.com/= quicwg/base-drafts/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md>.

* #3274: Enc= rypting Retry token
=C2=A0=C2=A0The proposal is <https://github= .com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3274>

* #3247: I am concerned = the congestion control text is too permissive.
=C2=A0=C2=A0The proposal= is <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3248>

= * #3245: Make RFC 6928 normative
=C2=A0=C2=A0The proposal is <htt= ps://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3287>

* #3244: Can we= make a normative ref to =C2=A0RFC8085?
=C2=A0=C2=A0The proposal is <= ;https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3248>

* #3243:= Add caution when using IW10 and fragmentation
=C2=A0=C2=A0The proposa= l is <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3280>

= * #3152: Client storage of tokens should be independent of other stored sta= te
=C2=A0=C2=A0The proposal is <https://github.com/quicwg/base-dr= afts/pull/3150>

* #3142: It is unspecified how a server sends= Handshake packets during / after migration
=C2=A0=C2=A0The proposal is= <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3145>

* #3= 094: congestion window increase on every ACKed packet could result in burst= y sends
=C2=A0=C2=A0The proposal is <https://github.com/quicwg/ba= se-drafts/pull/3232>

* #3014: Handling of corrupt Retry packe= ts
=C2=A0=C2=A0The proposal is <https://github.com/quicwg/base-= drafts/issues/3274>

* #2863: unrecoverable loss pattern leads= to deadlock
=C2=A0=C2=A0The proposal is <https://github.com/quic= wg/base-drafts/pull/3145>

* #2789: Use a higher seed RTT for = new paths
=C2=A0=C2=A0The proposal is to close with no action.

*= #2744: Idle Timer Can Fire Even with Outstanding Data to Send
=C2=A0= =C2=A0The proposal is <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/326= 6>

* #2602: Idle timeout needs more description and a recomme= ndation
=C2=A0=C2=A0The proposal is <https://github.com/quicwg/ba= se-drafts/pull/3099>


--
Mark Nottingham =C2=A0=C2=A0https://www.mnot.net/=


--000000000000b42789059c350e54-- From nobody Wed Jan 15 14:26:04 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4C581209DB for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 14:26:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=apple.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tAo4Ir6trD3r for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 14:26:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-aaemail-lapp01.apple.com (nwk-aaemail-lapp01.apple.com [17.151.62.66]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6ECFD120992 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 14:26:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (nwk-aaemail-lapp01.apple.com [127.0.0.1]) by nwk-aaemail-lapp01.apple.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id 00FMGw5U019566; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 14:25:55 -0800 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=apple.com; h=sender : from : message-id : content-type : mime-version : subject : date : in-reply-to : cc : to : references; s=20180706; bh=lMzrktXSmdpGKTIFj1+wSw4PJzY5o2KBmyDFxIOwbGw=; b=XgGayeFkILzgKNlf82FZ0+mb2kFydfBxwOXQZ2i3+2eDIyArKKGOTYS5Qcde2AxPdb29 zxjzdk5Xh5PkGYkhIiBtG8/Re1MoJA4xEBWbkfUTWek0luay60kvhpcwyjt5hwhayb4V /5OeiVphkzB2bIk5S+GaWstwktSr4U1+S+txqNVTkh8O1AL96ikaKUyWxKu6Pr/eMTIz ufe3zAgNp69riNTDBuzc/v/SScLVTpylGBmIWkYGs4wt6ndRjqmvGbYy7U5cdUA4oLyF MHtJ1O1noVki6/P17OleRSuWOV3KUlGjVzdviEbXYnmoJZxCe3+FGR0OYW1a0BcUzpPE qg== Received: from ma1-mtap-s03.corp.apple.com (ma1-mtap-s03.corp.apple.com [17.40.76.7]) by nwk-aaemail-lapp01.apple.com with ESMTP id 2xfe658ut1-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 15 Jan 2020 14:25:55 -0800 Received: from nwk-mmpp-sz11.apple.com (nwk-mmpp-sz11.apple.com [17.128.115.155]) by ma1-mtap-s03.corp.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.0.2.4.20190507 64bit (built May 7 2019)) with ESMTPS id <0Q4600MQ36B5CX00@ma1-mtap-s03.corp.apple.com>; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 14:25:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from process_milters-daemon.nwk-mmpp-sz11.apple.com by nwk-mmpp-sz11.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.0.2.4.20190507 64bit (built May 7 2019)) id <0Q4600G0060KDM00@nwk-mmpp-sz11.apple.com>; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 14:25:53 -0800 (PST) X-Va-A: X-Va-T-CD: a5deab3aa8128cfa8ffecae1f592b6eb X-Va-E-CD: 19d396bd906248db80241e801e59b99e X-Va-R-CD: 2b935ab2a48956a4bdee46aba64c1dcc X-Va-CD: 0 X-Va-ID: 86ad834d-43f0-49ab-b085-7d706969eda6 X-V-A: X-V-T-CD: a5deab3aa8128cfa8ffecae1f592b6eb X-V-E-CD: 19d396bd906248db80241e801e59b99e X-V-R-CD: 2b935ab2a48956a4bdee46aba64c1dcc X-V-CD: 0 X-V-ID: 2374d2e6-f497-454d-93d0-acd152e4812a X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:,, definitions=2020-01-15_03:,, signatures=0 Received: from [17.230.161.30] by nwk-mmpp-sz11.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.0.2.4.20190507 64bit (built May 7 2019)) with ESMTPSA id <0Q4600D7K6B20W00@nwk-mmpp-sz11.apple.com>; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 14:25:50 -0800 (PST) Sender: tpauly@apple.com From: Tommy Pauly Message-id: <02B7142E-B5EF-418F-9F52-0105FD770755@apple.com> Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_41703082-48CF-4906-BF0E-E5ED12EAB6D5" MIME-version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3594.4.17\)) Subject: Re: Consensus Calls for Late Stage Documents Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 14:25:47 -0800 In-reply-to: Cc: Vidhi Goel , Mark Nottingham , IETF QUIC WG , Eric Kinnear , Rui Cunha Paulo , Lars Eggert , Christoph Paasch To: Jana Iyengar References: <43D8DACA-C1C4-449A-A4BC-4F0E6F8F1CAB@mnot.net> <247B1759-7D5C-436D-B6C5-BC2AF2479366@apple.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3594.4.17) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2020-01-15_03:, , signatures=0 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 22:26:03 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_41703082-48CF-4906-BF0E-E5ED12EAB6D5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On Jan 15, 2020, at 2:16 PM, Jana Iyengar wrote: >=20 > Vidhi, >=20 > The current draft already recommends use of a pacer, and your PR 3351 = suggests a mechanism that an endpoint can use for doing it. That still = doesn't obviate the earlier need to specify a requirement for endpoints = that do not implement any pacing. >=20 > Basically, codifying an example pacer does not change the premise of = PR 3232 - that implementations might choose to not pace. >=20 > Said differently, even if we were to specify one way of pacing, as PR = 3351 does, PR 3232 still applies. I don't think we need to hold off on = PR 3232 based on PR 3351. We can discuss more on the issues/PRs, but one quick note on why we'd = like to hold off on merging anything just yet: In our testing, the specific solution described in #3232 can actually = cause some issues with underutilizing the link that are undesirable. = Beyond that, it still leaves edge cases open in which burst can still = occur, which is the problem originally described in #3094. The new PR is = describing another approach to solve #3094. The main spirit of the new PR is noting that the main problem with = non-pacing implementations being too bursty is that the burst limit = specified in the pacing section today gives a byte limit, but no time = limit. It should be sufficient to specify some bounds on the delay = between bursts to solve the problem described in #3094, without locking = implementations into a specific congestion-control relationship with the = number of ack packets (not just acked bytes as it is today). Best, Tommy >=20 > - jana >=20 > On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 1:47 PM Vidhi Goel = > wrote: > Hi Mark, >=20 >> * #3094: congestion window increase on every ACKed packet could = result in bursty sends >> The proposal is > >=20 > We would like to hold off on this change as we are working on = specifying Pacing mechanism which would allow the implementations to = decouple congestion window increase from sending rate and thus eliminate = the need for 2MSS limit during slow start. > Below is the PR: > https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3351 = >=20 > I will create a issue to start the discussion. >=20 > Thanks, > Vidhi >=20 >> On Jan 5, 2020, at 7:56 PM, Mark Nottingham > wrote: >>=20 >> Happy New Year, Working Group. >>=20 >> The following issues have proposals for resolution, and discussion so = far seems to support consensus to accept them. If you object, please do = so on the issue or in response to this message (changing the Subject = appropriately!). Absent any pushback, we'll direct the editors to = incorporate them late next week. >>=20 >> See > for the current = state of issues in the Late Stage process, itself defined at = >. >>=20 >> * #3274: Encrypting Retry token >> The proposal is > >>=20 >> * #3247: I am concerned the congestion control text is too = permissive. >> The proposal is > >>=20 >> * #3245: Make RFC 6928 normative >> The proposal is > >>=20 >> * #3244: Can we make a normative ref to RFC8085? >> The proposal is > >>=20 >> * #3243: Add caution when using IW10 and fragmentation=20 >> The proposal is > >>=20 >> * #3152: Client storage of tokens should be independent of other = stored state >> The proposal is > >>=20 >> * #3142: It is unspecified how a server sends Handshake packets = during / after migration >> The proposal is > >>=20 >> * #3094: congestion window increase on every ACKed packet could = result in bursty sends >> The proposal is > >>=20 >> * #3014: Handling of corrupt Retry packets >> The proposal is > >>=20 >> * #2863: unrecoverable loss pattern leads to deadlock >> The proposal is > >>=20 >> * #2789: Use a higher seed RTT for new paths >> The proposal is to close with no action. >>=20 >> * #2744: Idle Timer Can Fire Even with Outstanding Data to Send >> The proposal is > >>=20 >> * #2602: Idle timeout needs more description and a recommendation >> The proposal is > >>=20 >>=20 >> -- >> Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >>=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_41703082-48CF-4906-BF0E-E5ED12EAB6D5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

On Jan 15, 2020, at 2:16 PM, Jana Iyengar <jri.ietf@gmail.com> = wrote:

Vidhi,

The current draft already recommends use of a pacer, and your = PR 3351 suggests a mechanism that an endpoint can use for doing it. That = still doesn't obviate the earlier need to specify a requirement for = endpoints that do not implement any pacing.

Basically, codifying an example pacer = does not change the premise of PR 3232 - that implementations might = choose to not pace.

Said differently, even if we were to specify one way of = pacing, as PR 3351 does, PR 3232 still applies. I don't think we need to = hold off on PR 3232 based on PR = 3351.

We = can discuss more on the issues/PRs, but one quick note on why we'd like = to hold off on merging anything just yet:

In our testing, the specific solution described in = #3232 can actually cause some issues with underutilizing the link that = are undesirable. Beyond that, it still leaves edge cases open in which = burst can still occur, which is the problem originally described = in #3094. The new PR is describing another approach to = solve #3094.

The main spirit of = the new PR is noting that the main problem with non-pacing = implementations being too bursty is that the burst limit specified in = the pacing section today gives a byte limit, but no time limit. It = should be sufficient to specify some bounds on the delay between bursts = to solve the problem described in #3094, without locking implementations = into a specific congestion-control relationship with the number of ack = packets (not just acked bytes as it is today).

Best,
Tommy


- jana

On Wed, Jan = 15, 2020 at 1:47 PM Vidhi Goel <vidhi_goel=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
Hi Mark,

* #3094: congestion = window increase on every ACKed packet could result in bursty sends
  The proposal is <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3232>

We would like to hold off on = this change as we are working on specifying Pacing mechanism which would = allow the implementations to decouple congestion window increase from = sending rate and thus eliminate the need for 2MSS limit during slow = start.
Below is the PR:
https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3351

I will create a issue to = start the discussion.

Thanks,
Vidhi

On Jan 5, 2020, at 7:56 PM, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:

Happy New Year, Working Group.

The following issues have proposals for = resolution, and discussion so far seems to support consensus to accept = them. If you object, please do so on the issue or in response to this = message (changing the Subject appropriately!). Absent any pushback, = we'll direct the editors to incorporate them late next week.

See <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/projects/5> for = the current state of issues in the Late Stage process, itself defined at = <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.= md>.

* #3274: Encrypting Retry = token
  The proposal is <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3274>

* #3247: I am concerned the congestion control = text is too permissive.
  The proposal is = <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3248>

* #3245: Make RFC 6928 normative
=   The proposal is <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3287>

* #3244: Can we make a normative ref to =  RFC8085?
  The proposal is <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3248>

* #3243: Add caution when using IW10 and = fragmentation
  The proposal is <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3280>

* #3152: Client storage of tokens should be = independent of other stored state
  The = proposal is <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3150>

* #3142: It is unspecified how a server sends = Handshake packets during / after migration
=   The proposal is <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3145>

* #3094: congestion window increase on every = ACKed packet could result in bursty sends
  The = proposal is <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3232>

* #3014: Handling of corrupt Retry packets
  The proposal is <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3274>

* #2863: unrecoverable loss pattern leads to = deadlock
  The proposal is <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3145>

* #2789: Use a higher seed RTT for new = paths
  The proposal is to close with no = action.

* #2744: Idle Timer Can Fire Even = with Outstanding Data to Send
  The proposal is = <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3266>

* #2602: Idle timeout needs more description = and a recommendation
  The proposal is <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3099>


--
Mark = Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/



= --Apple-Mail=_41703082-48CF-4906-BF0E-E5ED12EAB6D5-- From nobody Wed Jan 15 14:43:16 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E289C1208DE for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 14:43:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fnOep0vgyGCq for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 14:43:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x133.google.com (mail-lf1-x133.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C6F1F120639 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 14:43:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x133.google.com with SMTP id y1so14011077lfb.6 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 14:43:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=rH4W9O/8jzGLqDSyUAMx3mAmrxxO6/Kw7zgPsMKde9U=; b=GEwWxnZgwZW0rX/5BFcB7CWPz+U9l90h8wcRFWC8jgYjAiZNdl9CLCncwm6CiqV6ZX 0RpwHq2+4ISkCky0BakSlphfsqX5Sc/j05+ZXrGCDxO8H2Jfq2sN/BBvlfpR7h/IOyiV 0RVhzmAkGOKpxbk7k4uyhj3fb2uq+fA1rURJ2DBuxclCPzThZ8R1OjvvT985IO6bftsH PPtxfjfxv5ImVJe3VL6i6jXgUw+souLrURxDfXz/qonBFxcbp2jKy9SRjaNBTbKlssna RnsEDddX6AUn++WfbqT5Kb0Lr1zSd7Lna6/Ze4cEXGXoKDvATaKTnDb5L/wVqMfzhPLV SBoA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=rH4W9O/8jzGLqDSyUAMx3mAmrxxO6/Kw7zgPsMKde9U=; b=OIFDo9Evd4QTjPhSO+yM8nbVrzepv/iwP2MOxhSo1NRjccDniACApc31VQQwsf+p5H 6nyyAWMtScdekFoowbHNP9a+mR4xJWPAbDHKUX1B68RIN6WK9f3tx2Q4DpuXSVfaZkNu X9fu+KxayXTlQbgao3ev5bjGGRskPgyqGdQPOY5tBbT4PXnfJZCez+KVAD2Rttkyjk8o 7cd1nhWL1PVT/HblZEHP7HjrtaefR4CrrAbd69Ou63Tle0POqrC00oi2OIGGlRiVRtig MWnfqc5ABHXTfQUowQUiIlmhAOI9viQEb1ToPTbuFKGF1mTOYV6vjGD1kcDpGUw6iAAJ bGGw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAW5UZJsjiBtDjNLnxETyVoiwuvgG7kRLDAb48RV0F5c9fqog1xR 6JvWJbr8eL8VWojPTX9LXJ5APhbnRBnVBPvVMr0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyhN14bo8TzLowcknalqxqPkl5cim23lh8rTbPHcqHW6E7mXtpd/yS7fxjv6y67DfQPGfyMsVzvRX9W4rpAntc= X-Received: by 2002:a19:850a:: with SMTP id h10mr631554lfd.89.1579128188034; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 14:43:08 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <43D8DACA-C1C4-449A-A4BC-4F0E6F8F1CAB@mnot.net> <247B1759-7D5C-436D-B6C5-BC2AF2479366@apple.com> <02B7142E-B5EF-418F-9F52-0105FD770755@apple.com> In-Reply-To: <02B7142E-B5EF-418F-9F52-0105FD770755@apple.com> From: Jana Iyengar Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 14:42:56 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Consensus Calls for Late Stage Documents To: Tommy Pauly Cc: Vidhi Goel , Mark Nottingham , IETF QUIC WG , Eric Kinnear , Rui Cunha Paulo , Lars Eggert , Christoph Paasch Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b3e3aa059c356e8b" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 22:43:14 -0000 --000000000000b3e3aa059c356e8b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Tommy, The draft currently says that senders SHOULD pace, and PR 3351 gets into more detailed guidance for a sender that does not follow our recommendation. I have questions about the specific guidance in that PR, but more to the point here, the wg was clear in Singapore that we should not do more pseudo-code for cases we don't recommend. Description of more mechanism for cases that are not recommended falls in a similar category. PR 3232 is meant to be a safety mechanism to protect a network from a sender that does not follow our recommendation to pace. I'm not opposed to making such a sender performant, but it seems to me that we do not need to get into this in the spec. Perhaps it might help if we added a note about how a non-paced sender might encounter performance issues? - jana On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 2:26 PM Tommy Pauly wrote: > > > On Jan 15, 2020, at 2:16 PM, Jana Iyengar wrote: > > Vidhi, > > The current draft already recommends use of a pacer, and your PR 3351 > suggests a mechanism that an endpoint can use for doing it. That still > doesn't obviate the earlier need to specify a requirement for endpoints > that do not implement any pacing. > > Basically, codifying an example pacer does not change the premise of PR > 3232 - that implementations might choose to not pace. > > Said differently, even if we were to specify one way of pacing, as PR 3351 > does, PR 3232 still applies. I don't think we need to hold off on PR 3232 > based on PR 3351. > > > We can discuss more on the issues/PRs, but one quick note on why we'd like > to hold off on merging anything just yet: > > In our testing, the specific solution described in #3232 can actually > cause some issues with underutilizing the link that are undesirable. Beyond > that, it still leaves edge cases open in which burst can still occur, which > is the problem originally described in #3094. The new PR is describing > another approach to solve #3094. > > The main spirit of the new PR is noting that the main problem with > non-pacing implementations being too bursty is that the burst limit > specified in the pacing section today gives a byte limit, but no time > limit. It should be sufficient to specify some bounds on the delay between > bursts to solve the problem described in #3094, without locking > implementations into a specific congestion-control relationship with the > number of ack packets (not just acked bytes as it is today). > > Best, > Tommy > > > - jana > > On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 1:47 PM Vidhi Goel 40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > >> Hi Mark, >> >> * #3094: congestion window increase on every ACKed packet could result in >> bursty sends >> The proposal is >> >> >> We would like to hold off on this change as we are working on specifying >> Pacing mechanism which would allow the implementations to decouple >> congestion window increase from sending rate and thus eliminate the need >> for 2MSS limit during slow start. >> Below is the PR: >> https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3351 >> >> I will create a issue to start the discussion. >> >> Thanks, >> Vidhi >> >> On Jan 5, 2020, at 7:56 PM, Mark Nottingham wrote: >> >> Happy New Year, Working Group. >> >> The following issues have proposals for resolution, and discussion so far >> seems to support consensus to accept them. If you object, please do so on >> the issue or in response to this message (changing the Subject >> appropriately!). Absent any pushback, we'll direct the editors to >> incorporate them late next week. >> >> See for the current >> state of issues in the Late Stage process, itself defined at < >> https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md>. >> >> * #3274: Encrypting Retry token >> The proposal is >> >> * #3247: I am concerned the congestion control text is too permissive. >> The proposal is >> >> * #3245: Make RFC 6928 normative >> The proposal is >> >> * #3244: Can we make a normative ref to RFC8085? >> The proposal is >> >> * #3243: Add caution when using IW10 and fragmentation >> The proposal is >> >> * #3152: Client storage of tokens should be independent of other stored >> state >> The proposal is >> >> * #3142: It is unspecified how a server sends Handshake packets during / >> after migration >> The proposal is >> >> * #3094: congestion window increase on every ACKed packet could result in >> bursty sends >> The proposal is >> >> * #3014: Handling of corrupt Retry packets >> The proposal is >> >> * #2863: unrecoverable loss pattern leads to deadlock >> The proposal is >> >> * #2789: Use a higher seed RTT for new paths >> The proposal is to close with no action. >> >> * #2744: Idle Timer Can Fire Even with Outstanding Data to Send >> The proposal is >> >> * #2602: Idle timeout needs more description and a recommendation >> The proposal is >> >> >> -- >> Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >> >> >> > --000000000000b3e3aa059c356e8b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Tommy,

The draft currently says that se= nders SHOULD pace, and PR 3351 gets into more detailed guidance=C2=A0for a = sender that does not follow our recommendation. I have questions about the = specific guidance in that PR, but more to the point here, the wg was clear = in Singapore that we should not do more pseudo-code for cases we don't = recommend. Description of more mechanism for cases that are not recommended= falls in a similar category.

PR 3232 is meant= to be a safety mechanism to protect a network from a sender that does not = follow our recommendation to pace. I'm not opposed to making such a sen= der performant, but it seems to me that we do not need to get into this in = the spec.

Perhaps it might help if we added a note= about how a non-paced sender might encounter=C2=A0performance issues?

- jana

On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 2:26 PM Tommy Paul= y <tpauly@apple.com> wrote:


On Jan= 15, 2020, at 2:16 PM, Jana Iyengar <jri.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

Vidhi,

The current draft already recommends u= se of a pacer, and your PR 3351 suggests a mechanism that an endpoint can u= se for doing it. That still doesn't obviate the earlier need to specify= a requirement for endpoints that do not implement any pacing.
Basically, codifying an example pacer does not change the prem= ise of PR 3232 - that implementations=C2=A0might choose to not pace.
<= div>
Said differently, even if we were to specify one way of = pacing, as PR 3351 does, PR 3232 still applies. I don't think we need t= o hold off on PR 3232 based on PR 3351.
=
We can discuss more on the issues/PRs, but one quick note on= why we'd like to hold off on merging anything just yet:

=
In our testing, the specific solution described in #3232 can act= ually cause some issues with underutilizing the link that are undesirable. = Beyond that, it still leaves edge cases open in which burst can still occur= , which is the problem originally described in=C2=A0#3094. The new PR is de= scribing another approach to solve=C2=A0#3094.

The= main spirit of the new PR is noting that the main problem with non-pacing = implementations being too bursty is that the burst limit specified in the p= acing section today gives a byte limit, but no time limit. It should be suf= ficient to specify some bounds on the delay between bursts to solve the pro= blem described in #3094, without locking implementations into a specific co= ngestion-control relationship with the number of ack packets (not just acke= d bytes as it is today).

Best,
Tommy

-= jana

On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 1:47 PM Vidhi Goel <vidhi_goel=3D40apple.com@dma= rc.ietf.org> wrote:
Hi Mark,

* #30= 94: congestion window increase on every ACKed packet could result in bursty= sends
=C2=A0=C2=A0The proposal is <https://github.com/quicwg/base= -drafts/pull/3232>

We would like to hold = off on this change as we are working on specifying Pacing mechanism which w= ould allow the implementations to decouple congestion window increase from = sending rate and thus eliminate the need for 2MSS limit during slow start.<= /div>
Below is the PR:

I will create a issue to start th= e discussion.

Thanks,
Vidhi

On Jan 5, 2020, at 7:56 PM, Mark Nott= ingham <mnot@mnot.net= > wrote:

Happy New Year, Working Group.

Th= e following issues have proposals for resolution, and discussion so far see= ms to support consensus to accept them. If you object, please do so on the = issue or in response to this message (changing the Subject appropriately!).= Absent any pushback, we'll direct the editors to incorporate them late= next week.

See <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/projec= ts/5> for the current state of issues in the Late Stage process, its= elf defined at <https://github.com/quicwg/base-draf= ts/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.md>.

* #3274: Encrypting Retry to= ken
=C2=A0=C2=A0The proposal is <https://github.com/quicwg/base= -drafts/issues/3274>

* #3247: I am concerned the congestion c= ontrol text is too permissive.
=C2=A0=C2=A0The proposal is <http= s://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3248>

* #3245: Make RF= C 6928 normative
=C2=A0=C2=A0The proposal is <https://github.com/= quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3287>

* #3244: Can we make a normativ= e ref to =C2=A0RFC8085?
=C2=A0=C2=A0The proposal is <https://gith= ub.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3248>

* #3243: Add caution whe= n using IW10 and fragmentation
=C2=A0=C2=A0The proposal is <http= s://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3280>

* #3152: Client = storage of tokens should be independent of other stored state
=C2=A0=C2= =A0The proposal is <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3150>

* #3142: It is unspecified how a server sends Handshake packe= ts during / after migration
=C2=A0=C2=A0The proposal is <https://= github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3145>

* #3094: congestion = window increase on every ACKed packet could result in bursty sends
=C2= =A0=C2=A0The proposal is <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/= 3232>

* #3014: Handling of corrupt Retry packets
=C2=A0= =C2=A0The proposal is <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues= /3274>

* #2863: unrecoverable loss pattern leads to deadlock<= br> =C2=A0=C2=A0The proposal is <https://github.com/quicwg/base-draft= s/pull/3145>

* #2789: Use a higher seed RTT for new paths
= =C2=A0=C2=A0The proposal is to close with no action.

* #2744: Idle = Timer Can Fire Even with Outstanding Data to Send
=C2=A0=C2=A0The propo= sal is <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3266>
* #2602: Idle timeout needs more description and a recommendation
=C2= =A0=C2=A0The proposal is <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/= 3099>


--
Mark Nottingham =C2=A0=C2=A0https://www.mnot.net/

<= /div>


--000000000000b3e3aa059c356e8b-- From nobody Wed Jan 15 15:02:30 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AAEFB120110 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 15:02:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=apple.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qluP0vmLP-eO for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 15:02:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp01.apple.com (ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp01.apple.com [17.171.2.60]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E838F120855 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 15:01:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp01.apple.com [127.0.0.1]) by ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp01.apple.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id 00FMvOfq062197; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 15:01:45 -0800 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=apple.com; h=sender : from : message-id : content-type : mime-version : subject : date : in-reply-to : cc : to : references; s=20180706; bh=1a3AkndlvDy/0F28I24ji8g2zNHf0eCa9WL7NahdJ0M=; b=LFpy0zL2QDAXW8XUuo3IEYIxogIUJ4B06FDfUHPx217QUbQgxS8MbsVzGX2bzN1ZH22z Btu6df1S4X4PCNyLJoc1Rb9Q8WbvYyvZfs3Owqh8tk9s7PF0sr6ah78Hsn7LV/3IGQmn AJ1xVBdLQikBznuuhnFR1yliCADt5Tgu45qcQVJuonNDvE+AVVqOy+XHIa9WwYRSD7oA bTDpaFZe0YOc1kIxGFnLCBkCCtEypEho9u95M2ML3fxI+G3QAa0IKGPntSyxVXHmdHUc ESDJt1MS8eP6EugcjckPZ92TDkWwKoTY5JIPGpNL3lEtu0Z2NRYYT9yEiVLdKc6Lzzet Cg== Received: from ma1-mtap-s01.corp.apple.com (ma1-mtap-s01.corp.apple.com [17.40.76.5]) by ma1-aaemail-dr-lapp01.apple.com with ESMTP id 2xfdw7trhh-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NO); Wed, 15 Jan 2020 15:01:45 -0800 Received: from nwk-mmpp-sz11.apple.com (nwk-mmpp-sz11.apple.com [17.128.115.155]) by ma1-mtap-s01.corp.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.0.2.4.20190507 64bit (built May 7 2019)) with ESMTPS id <0Q46002MP7YW6960@ma1-mtap-s01.corp.apple.com>; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 15:01:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from process_milters-daemon.nwk-mmpp-sz11.apple.com by nwk-mmpp-sz11.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.0.2.4.20190507 64bit (built May 7 2019)) id <0Q4600B007XDC300@nwk-mmpp-sz11.apple.com>; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 15:01:44 -0800 (PST) X-Va-A: X-Va-T-CD: a5deab3aa8128cfa8ffecae1f592b6eb X-Va-E-CD: 19d396bd906248db80241e801e59b99e X-Va-R-CD: 2b935ab2a48956a4bdee46aba64c1dcc X-Va-CD: 0 X-Va-ID: b7cb10b6-36e2-4fff-b98d-af12f68f8158 X-V-A: X-V-T-CD: a5deab3aa8128cfa8ffecae1f592b6eb X-V-E-CD: 19d396bd906248db80241e801e59b99e X-V-R-CD: 2b935ab2a48956a4bdee46aba64c1dcc X-V-CD: 0 X-V-ID: 54e218ab-da16-4732-9270-4988d20d77e6 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:,, definitions=2020-01-15_03:,, signatures=0 Received: from [17.230.161.30] by nwk-mmpp-sz11.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.0.2.4.20190507 64bit (built May 7 2019)) with ESMTPSA id <0Q4600D3A7YT0W90@nwk-mmpp-sz11.apple.com>; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 15:01:41 -0800 (PST) Sender: tpauly@apple.com From: Tommy Pauly Message-id: <60DC738C-6465-4797-BCFC-227944E8CB93@apple.com> Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_4956574E-01D5-43FF-A143-F531F8EDBE95" MIME-version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3594.4.17\)) Subject: Re: Consensus Calls for Late Stage Documents Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 15:01:38 -0800 In-reply-to: Cc: Christoph Paasch , Eric Kinnear , Mark Nottingham , Rui Cunha Paulo , Lars Eggert , Vidhi Goel , IETF QUIC WG To: Jana Iyengar References: <43D8DACA-C1C4-449A-A4BC-4F0E6F8F1CAB@mnot.net> <247B1759-7D5C-436D-B6C5-BC2AF2479366@apple.com> <02B7142E-B5EF-418F-9F52-0105FD770755@apple.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3594.4.17) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2020-01-15_03:, , signatures=0 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 23:02:29 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_4956574E-01D5-43FF-A143-F531F8EDBE95 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Jana, That definitely makes sense that we don't want to spend too much time in = the text on a non-recommended case, such as not pacing. Let's use the = new PR to discuss any text reworking that can get closer to that goal, = while clarifying the recommendations. With regards to #3232, one of the things we found in testing was that it = could (a) still allow an implementation to be vulnerable to too much = bursting (the original problem), but more importantly (b) locked = receivers into an ack pattern of acking every other packet. My main = concern is that this causes problems if receivers want to experiment = with and change acking strategies going forward in way that otherwise = would be fine. Best, Tommy > On Jan 15, 2020, at 2:42 PM, Jana Iyengar wrote: >=20 > Tommy, >=20 > The draft currently says that senders SHOULD pace, and PR 3351 gets = into more detailed guidance for a sender that does not follow our = recommendation. I have questions about the specific guidance in that PR, = but more to the point here, the wg was clear in Singapore that we should = not do more pseudo-code for cases we don't recommend. Description of = more mechanism for cases that are not recommended falls in a similar = category. >=20 > PR 3232 is meant to be a safety mechanism to protect a network from a = sender that does not follow our recommendation to pace. I'm not opposed = to making such a sender performant, but it seems to me that we do not = need to get into this in the spec. >=20 > Perhaps it might help if we added a note about how a non-paced sender = might encounter performance issues? >=20 > - jana >=20 > On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 2:26 PM Tommy Pauly > wrote: >=20 >=20 >> On Jan 15, 2020, at 2:16 PM, Jana Iyengar > wrote: >>=20 >> Vidhi, >>=20 >> The current draft already recommends use of a pacer, and your PR 3351 = suggests a mechanism that an endpoint can use for doing it. That still = doesn't obviate the earlier need to specify a requirement for endpoints = that do not implement any pacing. >>=20 >> Basically, codifying an example pacer does not change the premise of = PR 3232 - that implementations might choose to not pace. >>=20 >> Said differently, even if we were to specify one way of pacing, as PR = 3351 does, PR 3232 still applies. I don't think we need to hold off on = PR 3232 based on PR 3351. >=20 > We can discuss more on the issues/PRs, but one quick note on why we'd = like to hold off on merging anything just yet: >=20 > In our testing, the specific solution described in #3232 can actually = cause some issues with underutilizing the link that are undesirable. = Beyond that, it still leaves edge cases open in which burst can still = occur, which is the problem originally described in #3094. The new PR is = describing another approach to solve #3094. >=20 > The main spirit of the new PR is noting that the main problem with = non-pacing implementations being too bursty is that the burst limit = specified in the pacing section today gives a byte limit, but no time = limit. It should be sufficient to specify some bounds on the delay = between bursts to solve the problem described in #3094, without locking = implementations into a specific congestion-control relationship with the = number of ack packets (not just acked bytes as it is today). >=20 > Best, > Tommy >=20 >>=20 >> - jana >>=20 >> On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 1:47 PM Vidhi Goel = > wrote: >> Hi Mark, >>=20 >>> * #3094: congestion window increase on every ACKed packet could = result in bursty sends >>> The proposal is > >>=20 >> We would like to hold off on this change as we are working on = specifying Pacing mechanism which would allow the implementations to = decouple congestion window increase from sending rate and thus eliminate = the need for 2MSS limit during slow start. >> Below is the PR: >> https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3351 = >>=20 >> I will create a issue to start the discussion. >>=20 >> Thanks, >> Vidhi >>=20 >>> On Jan 5, 2020, at 7:56 PM, Mark Nottingham > wrote: >>>=20 >>> Happy New Year, Working Group. >>>=20 >>> The following issues have proposals for resolution, and discussion = so far seems to support consensus to accept them. If you object, please = do so on the issue or in response to this message (changing the Subject = appropriately!). Absent any pushback, we'll direct the editors to = incorporate them late next week. >>>=20 >>> See > for the current = state of issues in the Late Stage process, itself defined at = >. >>>=20 >>> * #3274: Encrypting Retry token >>> The proposal is > >>>=20 >>> * #3247: I am concerned the congestion control text is too = permissive. >>> The proposal is > >>>=20 >>> * #3245: Make RFC 6928 normative >>> The proposal is > >>>=20 >>> * #3244: Can we make a normative ref to RFC8085? >>> The proposal is > >>>=20 >>> * #3243: Add caution when using IW10 and fragmentation=20 >>> The proposal is > >>>=20 >>> * #3152: Client storage of tokens should be independent of other = stored state >>> The proposal is > >>>=20 >>> * #3142: It is unspecified how a server sends Handshake packets = during / after migration >>> The proposal is > >>>=20 >>> * #3094: congestion window increase on every ACKed packet could = result in bursty sends >>> The proposal is > >>>=20 >>> * #3014: Handling of corrupt Retry packets >>> The proposal is > >>>=20 >>> * #2863: unrecoverable loss pattern leads to deadlock >>> The proposal is > >>>=20 >>> * #2789: Use a higher seed RTT for new paths >>> The proposal is to close with no action. >>>=20 >>> * #2744: Idle Timer Can Fire Even with Outstanding Data to Send >>> The proposal is > >>>=20 >>> * #2602: Idle timeout needs more description and a recommendation >>> The proposal is > >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> -- >>> Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >>>=20 >>=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_4956574E-01D5-43FF-A143-F531F8EDBE95 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Hi = Jana,

That = definitely makes sense that we don't want to spend too much time in the = text on a non-recommended case, such as not pacing. Let's use the new PR = to discuss any text reworking that can get closer to that goal, while = clarifying the recommendations.

With regards to #3232, one of the = things we found in testing was that it could (a) still allow an = implementation to be vulnerable to too much bursting (the original = problem), but more importantly (b) locked receivers into an ack pattern = of acking every other packet. My main concern is that this causes = problems if receivers want to experiment with and change acking = strategies going forward in way that otherwise would be fine.

Best,
Tommy

On Jan 15, 2020, at 2:42 PM, = Jana Iyengar <jri.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

Tommy,

The = draft currently says that senders SHOULD pace, and PR 3351 gets into = more detailed guidance for a sender that does not follow our = recommendation. I have questions about the specific guidance in that PR, = but more to the point here, the wg was clear in Singapore that we should = not do more pseudo-code for cases we don't recommend. Description of = more mechanism for cases that are not recommended falls in a similar = category.

PR 3232 is meant to be a safety mechanism to protect a = network from a sender that does not follow our recommendation to pace. = I'm not opposed to making such a sender performant, but it seems to me = that we do not need to get into this in the spec.
Perhaps it might help if we added a = note about how a non-paced sender might encounter performance = issues?

- = jana

On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 2:26 PM Tommy Pauly <tpauly@apple.com> = wrote:


On Jan = 15, 2020, at 2:16 PM, Jana Iyengar <jri.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

Vidhi,

The current draft already recommends = use of a pacer, and your PR 3351 suggests a mechanism that an endpoint = can use for doing it. That still doesn't obviate the earlier need to = specify a requirement for endpoints that do not implement any = pacing.

Basically, codifying an example pacer does not change the = premise of PR 3232 - that implementations might choose to not = pace.

Said = differently, even if we were to specify one way of pacing, as PR 3351 = does, PR 3232 still applies. I don't think we need to hold off on PR = 3232 based on PR 3351.

We can discuss more on the issues/PRs, = but one quick note on why we'd like to hold off on merging anything just = yet:

In our = testing, the specific solution described in #3232 can actually cause = some issues with underutilizing the link that are undesirable. Beyond = that, it still leaves edge cases open in which burst can still occur, = which is the problem originally described in #3094. The new PR is = describing another approach to solve #3094.

The main spirit of the new PR is noting = that the main problem with non-pacing implementations being too bursty = is that the burst limit specified in the pacing section today gives a = byte limit, but no time limit. It should be sufficient to specify some = bounds on the delay between bursts to solve the problem described in = #3094, without locking implementations into a specific = congestion-control relationship with the number of ack packets (not just = acked bytes as it is today).

Best,
Tommy

- jana

On Wed, Jan = 15, 2020 at 1:47 PM Vidhi Goel <vidhi_goel=3D40apple.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
Hi Mark,

* #3094: congestion window increase on every ACKed packet = could result in bursty sends
  The proposal is = <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3232>

We would like to hold off on = this change as we are working on specifying Pacing mechanism which would = allow the implementations to decouple congestion window increase from = sending rate and thus eliminate the need for 2MSS limit during slow = start.
Below is the PR:
https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3351

I will create a issue to = start the discussion.

Thanks,
Vidhi

On Jan 5, 2020, at 7:56 PM, Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> wrote:

Happy New Year, Working Group.

The following issues have proposals for = resolution, and discussion so far seems to support consensus to accept = them. If you object, please do so on the issue or in response to this = message (changing the Subject appropriately!). Absent any pushback, = we'll direct the editors to incorporate them late next week.

See <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/projects/5> for = the current state of issues in the Late Stage process, itself defined at = <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/blob/master/CONTRIBUTING.= md>.

* #3274: Encrypting Retry = token
  The proposal is <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3274>

* #3247: I am concerned the congestion control = text is too permissive.
  The proposal is = <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3248>

* #3245: Make RFC 6928 normative
=   The proposal is <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3287>

* #3244: Can we make a normative ref to =  RFC8085?
  The proposal is <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3248>

* #3243: Add caution when using IW10 and = fragmentation
  The proposal is <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3280>

* #3152: Client storage of tokens should be = independent of other stored state
  The = proposal is <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3150>

* #3142: It is unspecified how a server sends = Handshake packets during / after migration
=   The proposal is <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3145>

* #3094: congestion window increase on every = ACKed packet could result in bursty sends
  The = proposal is <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3232>

* #3014: Handling of corrupt Retry packets
  The proposal is <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3274>

* #2863: unrecoverable loss pattern leads to = deadlock
  The proposal is <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3145>

* #2789: Use a higher seed RTT for new = paths
  The proposal is to close with no = action.

* #2744: Idle Timer Can Fire Even = with Outstanding Data to Send
  The proposal is = <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3266>

* #2602: Idle timeout needs more description = and a recommendation
  The proposal is <https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3099>


--
Mark = Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/




= --Apple-Mail=_4956574E-01D5-43FF-A143-F531F8EDBE95-- From nobody Wed Jan 15 15:11:27 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8538E120855 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 15:11:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Wz1H61_Uiop8 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 15:11:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x236.google.com (mail-lj1-x236.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9139F120639 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 15:11:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x236.google.com with SMTP id l2so20408054lja.6 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 15:11:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=vN/TiegxCLIqTsw0yZKTXtZn0+uk8CvvvbiSymW/ab8=; b=dDIxPo76H96vmOc+etN314E4M41AjfYHTHwp95pr5DEyGcojwnFl4/7VwCHW+RZzDO sTIKyPbCiCkTUBsGUzRPLH4YGgXLtoagii6/6yOhCD7lA/0aQEFnhZpccqfD9OgnJJpd FtxaeFsyaCWffa7evM5iIrY4diECaSUDCjIVZ8Ornx+y5fGgJqlLxwznwokfSJ6U1AX2 9PvcPW9lCP5z7jTcRA6uZ/YWKIOnQQDLbbxCpVln3jPujxy7vsKy+wMimUEMGKnqH0rw +Q55LhFHC0SRirQGtk48YMVm8bhcp+WO/kSyl7i3Ca/rKXJ2SuK4ZI5f1THrgr/OBZfP FdQA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=vN/TiegxCLIqTsw0yZKTXtZn0+uk8CvvvbiSymW/ab8=; b=rHEKY3yqcDtmwvyxZKfd14G5JuGSs1prJGMc6fEKoLBJ8ce0P5rAlfDQ8xZip89AlM A2EvyJniSJs/82ouNhvL7F5QIlTFmpvGQLusqIu5xtwIw+Jza7WHdXgRPA1CJ7amiBgv WOVX8oG+sdTf1om/wT/QE6R4GR0U4pHFTuh584RsjvNEGwrYeOo8pDH7DP+GzXpyF2fd CRjKpLOa+2xdQv1jTdrHd0jWHPigUhvTgceBxj+gA/op74pDvH90UR/0gCdHphF+vcJ0 ykFdmHvXJfWaxTHifF2p2YmUWlgyeAo6saGUFOTpg1N1IYKdlfEI4sZ3cYJP4nRpJnqV f/Sw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXrvpAz38vF6SxOlULYoXpVbIy9wPDf3lTMjTFDRu1aC2zqn+Ai r3hYf6sFfTx8MfaVBvZggHchn6z6bVejbY3ZTas= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwW5B2ma8t/9QNjPr2I28tFSz8dB3WhVwl2HiqAqFqm+3ESPoILscvAeQFPGYtPY7Yf/j0H2QjWyWOlAIGYmPY= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:8015:: with SMTP id j21mr432956ljg.172.1579129880823; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 15:11:20 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <43D8DACA-C1C4-449A-A4BC-4F0E6F8F1CAB@mnot.net> <247B1759-7D5C-436D-B6C5-BC2AF2479366@apple.com> <02B7142E-B5EF-418F-9F52-0105FD770755@apple.com> <60DC738C-6465-4797-BCFC-227944E8CB93@apple.com> In-Reply-To: <60DC738C-6465-4797-BCFC-227944E8CB93@apple.com> From: Jana Iyengar Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 15:11:09 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Consensus Calls for Late Stage Documents To: Tommy Pauly Cc: Christoph Paasch , Eric Kinnear , Mark Nottingham , Rui Cunha Paulo , Lars Eggert , Vidhi Goel , IETF QUIC WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000099cd1d059c35d3e8" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 23:11:25 -0000 --00000000000099cd1d059c35d3e8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Tommy, Responses inline. That definitely makes sense that we don't want to spend too much time in > the text on a non-recommended case, such as not pacing. Let's use the new > PR to discuss any text reworking that can get closer to that goal, while > clarifying the recommendations. > SG. > With regards to #3232, one of the things we found in testing was that it > could (a) still allow an implementation to be vulnerable to too much > bursting (the original problem), but more importantly (b) locked receivers > into an ack pattern of acking every other packet. My main concern is that > this causes problems if receivers want to experiment with and change acking > strategies going forward in way that otherwise would be fine. > These are good points, thank you for raising them. If the PR does not help with the original problem, I'm ok with holding off on merging. I'm much less convinced that we need to specify anything as elaborate as PR 3351, however. I'm curious to understand more about your testing -- do you want to continue this discussion on the original issue (3094) so we can find a way forward? - jana --00000000000099cd1d059c35d3e8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Tommy,

Responses inline.

That defi= nitely makes sense that we don't want to spend too much time in the tex= t on a non-recommended case, such as not pacing. Let's use the new PR t= o discuss any text reworking that can get closer to that goal, while clarif= ying the recommendations.

SG.
=C2=A0
With regards to #3232, one of th= e things we found in testing was that it could (a) still allow an implement= ation to be vulnerable to too much bursting (the original problem), but mor= e importantly (b) locked receivers into an ack pattern of acking every othe= r packet. My main concern is that this causes problems if receivers want to= experiment with and change acking strategies going forward in way that oth= erwise would be fine.

These are= good points, thank you for raising them. If the PR does not help with the = original problem, I'm ok with holding off on merging. I'm much less= convinced that we need to specify anything as elaborate as PR 3351, howeve= r.=C2=A0

I'm curious to understand more about = your testing -- do you want to continue this discussion on the original iss= ue (3094) so we can find a way forward?

- jana=
--00000000000099cd1d059c35d3e8-- From nobody Wed Jan 15 15:14:35 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 111FB1209E4 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 15:14:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=apple.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FfEi3P32v_Kc for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 15:14:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from nwk-aaemail-lapp01.apple.com (nwk-aaemail-lapp01.apple.com [17.151.62.66]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ED41D120044 for ; 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Wed, 15 Jan 2020 15:14:21 -0800 (PST) Sender: tpauly@apple.com From: Tommy Pauly Message-id: <8D177C9E-D216-4A6A-942C-1C669FAE8231@apple.com> Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_BFA34712-61D1-4E6E-B993-E71B40819A7A" MIME-version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3594.4.17\)) Subject: Re: Consensus Calls for Late Stage Documents Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 15:14:18 -0800 In-reply-to: Cc: Christoph Paasch , Eric Kinnear , Mark Nottingham , Rui Cunha Paulo , Lars Eggert , Vidhi Goel , IETF QUIC WG To: Jana Iyengar References: <43D8DACA-C1C4-449A-A4BC-4F0E6F8F1CAB@mnot.net> <247B1759-7D5C-436D-B6C5-BC2AF2479366@apple.com> <02B7142E-B5EF-418F-9F52-0105FD770755@apple.com> <60DC738C-6465-4797-BCFC-227944E8CB93@apple.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3594.4.17) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2020-01-15_03:, , signatures=0 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 23:14:31 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_BFA34712-61D1-4E6E-B993-E71B40819A7A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On Jan 15, 2020, at 3:11 PM, Jana Iyengar wrote: >=20 > Tommy, >=20 > Responses inline. >=20 > That definitely makes sense that we don't want to spend too much time = in the text on a non-recommended case, such as not pacing. Let's use the = new PR to discuss any text reworking that can get closer to that goal, = while clarifying the recommendations. >=20 > SG. > =20 > With regards to #3232, one of the things we found in testing was that = it could (a) still allow an implementation to be vulnerable to too much = bursting (the original problem), but more importantly (b) locked = receivers into an ack pattern of acking every other packet. My main = concern is that this causes problems if receivers want to experiment = with and change acking strategies going forward in way that otherwise = would be fine. >=20 > These are good points, thank you for raising them. If the PR does not = help with the original problem, I'm ok with holding off on merging. I'm = much less convinced that we need to specify anything as elaborate as PR = 3351, however.=20 >=20 > I'm curious to understand more about your testing -- do you want to = continue this discussion on the original issue (3094) so we can find a = way forward? Sure, let's use the initial issue (#3094) for discussion! Tommy >=20 > - jana --Apple-Mail=_BFA34712-61D1-4E6E-B993-E71B40819A7A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

On Jan 15, 2020, at 3:11 PM, Jana Iyengar <jri.ietf@gmail.com> = wrote:

Tommy,

Responses inline.

That definitely makes sense that = we don't want to spend too much time in the text on a non-recommended = case, such as not pacing. Let's use the new PR to discuss any text = reworking that can get closer to that goal, while clarifying the = recommendations.

SG.
 
With regards to #3232, one of = the things we found in testing was that it could (a) still allow an = implementation to be vulnerable to too much bursting (the original = problem), but more importantly (b) locked receivers into an ack pattern = of acking every other packet. My main concern is that this causes = problems if receivers want to experiment with and change acking = strategies going forward in way that otherwise would be = fine.

These are good points, thank you for raising them. If the PR = does not help with the original problem, I'm ok with holding off on = merging. I'm much less convinced that we need to specify anything as = elaborate as PR 3351, however. 

I'm curious to understand more about = your testing -- do you want to continue this discussion on the original = issue (3094) so we can find a way forward?

Sure, let's use the initial issue (#3094) for = discussion!

Tommy

- jana

= --Apple-Mail=_BFA34712-61D1-4E6E-B993-E71B40819A7A-- From nobody Thu Jan 16 05:37:55 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA81B12008A for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2020 05:37:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id szpn_AUx3SQM for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2020 05:37:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x231.google.com (mail-lj1-x231.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8662012007C for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2020 05:37:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x231.google.com with SMTP id r19so22663925ljg.3 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2020 05:37:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=ZOU1DLdaGTH4sP1B+lhEmlRKDKIwxmTZF887IITmxk4=; b=hLSsBCCn95CQR8/pxlv4UGbPg33r+o5OsNjx4n6bNuTj2pN7MeFPgX/kfLsvu0wAcm J+ojgepizM0nVosXOz2NMWjZNdZpUHcWTp6bXndHoytcXBMNhVw3HAj8Co1OhrEE8JWo QISDWGLdOtH9ueM3Xwz4+FUplpBp5jUfJi3m+TmAhOaNRyb4mAgJfY7CAHfNSd9UdYAT zAwwfhd+OpsW+7Bz8vG9gObwQaR7z40JO1DAozEXnQcdx85pqygQGJeyKboih8g2vQVH iQHhpydlDysyzDXxYCgG9MucPGthLqQFoayngxdKru+iqFFsL59mLMc0QQkCF9W7QkbT XFLg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=ZOU1DLdaGTH4sP1B+lhEmlRKDKIwxmTZF887IITmxk4=; b=Il7qpdP5N51AyljB/e4PqcfGv1hRM/hdKI+8c8fpNRjhftB6axQE/nVKpENKyHi/yJ QBMQ5cw5RdGUytzjy+KtsG3U4XWzGVfYeqBvvCN5sIAnG9SCR4tMLYovEReOCfRalSeQ EfyQ+00tqQS4m+JW8PApwVjiPzg3Bo3qnNml9OsRa5MhLuQ7yBd53fCkQG7cisLB//VQ 9lmByvVrzBam9MR2maxfV/fpsb+LWn0yb9ODxz3w1r2ppdNwE9/w+kIjrHMUoZzwqYQi wDDyjavTxIOqTtAd8Kkl5DNVjxOQT2gP/3bmogliDu0UEzL10Rkb7/S/GER1vCYK8Gfm FO1Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVJKGG6JV855bTbI5y5RrCahYcVDOP3wU5WApAvRkyBQGArwL3q dTlFGo+u2pFEF7kRb3hNovlzWZ6TztHmtaH/OiUqJnvfDwE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwqNWBgdugTpE6EoOnbutZkKFCDHG9ayVKIrYWGyYHDRjPhvBDaeuCR5ii+jrQFQLPSfuG2sbIVcfjTglkHKGs= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:7e11:: with SMTP id z17mr2315887ljc.117.1579181870575; Thu, 16 Jan 2020 05:37:50 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Jiuhai Zhang Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2020 21:37:39 +0800 Message-ID: Subject: How to parse cid if cid length change To: quic@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006e74b9059c41ee27" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2020 13:37:54 -0000 --0000000000006e74b9059c41ee27 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" We cannot get cid length in short header packet, how can we parse cid from short header packet? Long header packet has cid length, but we can't find the connection before cid parsed. --0000000000006e74b9059c41ee27 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 We cannot get cid length in short header pac= ket, how can we parse cid from=C2=A0short header packet? Long header packet= has cid length, but we can't find the connection before cid parsed. --0000000000006e74b9059c41ee27-- From nobody Thu Jan 16 05:41:57 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7243B12008A for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2020 05:41:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ze4GbF69i3ga for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2020 05:41:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from vs23.mail.saunalahti.fi (vs23.mail.saunalahti.fi [193.64.193.199]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4923512007C for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2020 05:41:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from vs23.mail.saunalahti.fi (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vs23.mail.saunalahti.fi (Postfix) with ESMTP id D61FF20F67; Thu, 16 Jan 2020 15:41:47 +0200 (EET) Received: from gw03.mail.saunalahti.fi (gw03.mail.saunalahti.fi [195.197.172.111]) by vs23.mail.saunalahti.fi (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB43820EC1; Thu, 16 Jan 2020 15:41:47 +0200 (EET) Received: from eggert.org (unknown [62.248.255.8]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: eggert@elisanet.fi) by gw03.mail.saunalahti.fi (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9A2F120040; Thu, 16 Jan 2020 15:41:45 +0200 (EET) Received: from stickers.eggert.org (Stickers.eggert.org [172.24.110.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by eggert.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 25D24601043; Thu, 16 Jan 2020 15:41:39 +0200 (EET) From: Lars Eggert Message-Id: <40A4DD99-2AFD-4B00-A636-C9F8473CAE5E@eggert.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_BA40C488-2F5A-4CFE-9041-B0351E20960B"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.40.2.2.4\)) Subject: Re: How to parse cid if cid length change Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2020 15:41:39 +0200 In-Reply-To: Cc: quic@ietf.org To: Jiuhai Zhang References: X-MailScanner-ID: 25D24601043.AFB63 X-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: lars@eggert.org Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2020 13:41:56 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_BA40C488-2F5A-4CFE-9041-B0351E20960B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, On 2020-1-16, at 15:37, Jiuhai Zhang wrote: > We cannot get cid length in short header packet, how can we parse = cid from short header packet? Long header packet has cid length, but we = can't find the connection before cid parsed. your endpoint chooses the destination CID the peer includes in packets = it sends to you. You need to remember what length you chose. Lars --Apple-Mail=_BA40C488-2F5A-4CFE-9041-B0351E20960B Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEmpq0ZpSoejRmyhheVLXDCb9wwVcFAl4gaBMACgkQVLXDCb9w wVfIiw//axe2lWA925rAfr5B308YRitkooVwTMboPnKYOPzKTzrGhNJqrL4PoB5h PiCfstxN4N3Sd4g7xI1OItuUP2pAMbC6gVanZE+qafUbnvGDNNwCmfp2xTDeFb4v IUe4aIGXqnyrEWKt88iQDtRIsAY9LSZKP1wd7qbU1bTH5gPyp09o4ITu6yGx4wRY CiGDrob9mNaFovW5oqXXKqbL8ae8ZZyff6CCWE/urffwyDyoovEe7ehgEaHRr7GB 5+gt/KR+OFze1nluTlFZ/G4jwyYGVbyYgh83y40uJYPVZhnOLOdIgVQ/K0m+Zh5k rmIeEE5TatnOPQG/QFNLCZPIZDr20UliVwjo3SiQ3ocf8rB8KnIi33S6KGY7qH3c RZfyWROLVn+Avy4DJ1/p69aLUamCx+SOYPKt3cyAUSMOCdPXmJ/nzfUaM8aea8cc jxOcd1ydRaUo8Ux696E36XX4oDZKvosTKZa0JO3qukQpGdz0q6P+YULH2yhVl1p7 A8oFNgB2ZEqMtry3hdLLo9joPrcR4W2gSIfd95Oo3xnrKCVged7GwTmpK9e2BsJy P1MLoq8ZjaXKqd5oJPQFU6nG+OvtkZuavKSWnfJMtgJnFfZcKEqA3166hw5Fu/mZ GlBfayWuZGC19T/u3pZYUioU97ixSS9cXq50RE++72a00al3YLQ= =wk6V -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_BA40C488-2F5A-4CFE-9041-B0351E20960B-- From nobody Thu Jan 16 10:09:16 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 512AC12009E; 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Thu, 16 Jan 2020 20:26:07 +0000 From: Mike Bishop To: Lars Eggert , Jiuhai Zhang CC: "quic@ietf.org" Subject: RE: How to parse cid if cid length change Thread-Topic: How to parse cid if cid length change Thread-Index: AQHVzHItvjXa168scEy9r8IiPcVpy6ftTHeAgABwyWA= Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2020 20:26:07 +0000 Message-ID: References: <40A4DD99-2AFD-4B00-A636-C9F8473CAE5E@eggert.org> In-Reply-To: <40A4DD99-2AFD-4B00-A636-C9F8473CAE5E@eggert.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=mbishop@evequefou.be; x-originating-ip: [2600:2b00:9327:7d01:2d2c:b58e:713d:b7a9] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: ae8c88a5-2d50-4cbd-4380-08d79ac25171 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: CH2PR22MB1960: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:4303; x-forefront-prvs: 02843AA9E0 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(39830400003)(136003)(396003)(346002)(366004)(376002)(199004)(189003)(4744005)(52536014)(81166006)(81156014)(4326008)(9686003)(8676002)(55016002)(5660300002)(4001150100001)(8936002)(66476007)(316002)(71200400001)(66946007)(66446008)(64756008)(76116006)(86362001)(508600001)(110136005)(2906002)(66556008)(53546011)(6506007)(33656002)(186003)(7696005); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:CH2PR22MB1960; H:CH2PR22MB2086.namprd22.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: evequefou.be does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: vG90TpaR+i0bJtOx1NxnJWgxQFlsVr7ivFPcu2c98bnJN6T10U96/RAO8CDMGnVtokErLCYbntsqHOxbZ5kih93s9bGaVQfd5VQo1DtwC5yYvykbV5ksCtxeysQpb5BhqUuCDAVUnBmvtmTndqNggomKNKbTsq4d3eURlw/sG4ig8SWOWgdbaatwr0CR7gWgrNUVEyu7B4lbWQ6Nizqmt9Lv+sIfm+nkPgT3ol7StSPlY8CySxwZACYBX5Q7fmuu5POV8FCHMiUuB0QV4XC+Xk6DEecUrAoR3wL159fLdjnPkh+3U/ObzxYwteihxwFUl1hXdQm2NYKMcWe5ooezI0L99H4qOA2H2Ts5TG3JgVL9KfYSNgGRZ0qYxQEhWMnXd5CycnR3Sd6KP8stULqZLAfFISCpP0ojwNl1XPFlMyj6PcELd7MJaG8okhATHwan x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: evequefou.be X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: ae8c88a5-2d50-4cbd-4380-08d79ac25171 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 16 Jan 2020 20:26:07.4286 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 41eaf50b-882d-47eb-8c4c-0b5b76a9da8f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 5n7D2htISb68JHOWw6qqk7XtPHUJsumkXchrDEcx96tey7VhQivirC5lNPS7zPBN8vYXumWguyzV8l2tE0AnVw== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CH2PR22MB1960 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2020 20:26:16 -0000 Note that, since your implementation chooses the CIDs, you could opt to rem= ember by embedding the length in the CID itself -- use the first few bits t= o indicate which of the sizes you support was chosen. -----Original Message----- From: QUIC On Behalf Of Lars Eggert Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2020 8:42 AM To: Jiuhai Zhang Cc: quic@ietf.org Subject: Re: How to parse cid if cid length change Hi, On 2020-1-16, at 15:37, Jiuhai Zhang wrote: > We cannot get cid length in short header packet, how can we parse cid= from short header packet? Long header packet has cid length, but we can't = find the connection before cid parsed. your endpoint chooses the destination CID the peer includes in packets it s= ends to you. You need to remember what length you chose. 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Thu, 16 Jan 2020 18:05:43 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Gyan Mishra Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2020 21:05:32 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: QUIC use with multicast To: IETF QUIC WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000d7a5c059c4c616f" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 02:05:50 -0000 --0000000000000d7a5c059c4c616f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable QUIC WG Has anyone ever tried using QUIC with multicast RTP UDP streamed using QUIC transport. Multicast has always been problematic with use on the internet MBONE and even on intranets due the unreliable UDP RTP transport for MPEG4 MPEG-TS and even newer protocols MPED-DASH abs and HLS multicast has struggled with using UDP transport. Multicast has thus required stringent end to end QOS in profile guaranteed scheduling bandwidth hop by hop PHB to ensue no drops to avoid dropping of I frame resulting in client frozen window and buffering. Since QUIC is a secure reliable transport and supports unidirectional flows it would be a perfect fit for multicast. This would be a game changer for multicast as over the internet which you don=E2=80=99t have any QOS guarantee. Kind regards Gyan --=20 Gyan Mishra Network Engineering & Technology Verizon Silver Spring, MD 20904 Phone: 301 502-1347 Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com --0000000000000d7a5c059c4c616f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

QUIC WG

Has anyone ever tried using QUIC with multica= st RTP UDP streamed using QUIC transport.

=
Multicast has always been problematic with use on the int= ernet MBONE and even on intranets due the unreliable UDP RTP transport for = MPEG4 MPEG-TS and even newer protocols MPED-DASH abs and HLS multicast has = struggled with using UDP transport.

Multicast has thus required stringent end to end QOS in profile= guaranteed scheduling bandwidth hop by hop PHB to ensue no drops to avoid = dropping of I frame resulting in client frozen window and buffering.
<= div dir=3D"auto">
Since QUIC is a secure reliabl= e transport and supports unidirectional flows it would be a perfect fit for= multicast. =C2=A0

This = would be a game changer for multicast as over the internet which you don=E2= =80=99t have any QOS guarantee.

Kind=C2=A0regards=C2=A0

Gyan


--

Gyan=C2=A0 Mishra

Network Engineering & Technology=C2=A0

V= erizon=C2=A0

Silver Spring, MD 20904

Phon= e: 301 502-1347

Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com



=
--0000000000000d7a5c059c4c616f-- From nobody Thu Jan 16 20:39:25 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0701120099 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2020 20:39:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=M4/GPMlw; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=GHqDQJzV Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nHi9TOZuDZGF for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2020 20:39:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com (out3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 60A4A1200CD for ; Thu, 16 Jan 2020 20:39:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADC372202A; Thu, 16 Jan 2020 23:39:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 16 Jan 2020 23:39:20 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s=fm1; bh=c /ixPSitx96NWcsPxxCt2w2x767Sk8+qOiDqNifhUy0=; b=M4/GPMlw9Qq3ZXY/1 uH6L2Nmtwb6ODcgSYFxQDZXCPj8EGeDfanZNmKk3nhe28p8JQRnVCFrUcnG3u7zG hoF7MOJya1+TT/lJIsHaDbwb8+RJmu7+1Lb7Y+7EFtTTPoaCmpSJSzlk04b2Lq/x ++IkqFwXxOaP6yyUdrd+2kCQ7maensQFRBk4+GwzHmNGJroekI+4rfvXtu1Wc5Nd ppx2qrfoSCJw9yhpEKw112qNyQLHDeJ5TYP50dlidisVI7cfaqk2qDlkNO+6qXPe cf9yWE+gpKC1Qjdf4NTnltNq9In3pVkY7Tq+W3O2UVkZ/9j+zn7z2pWIMbcGtVuu QH++w== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=cc:content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version:references :subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender :x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=c/ixPSitx96NWcsPxxCt2w2x767Sk8+qOiDqNifhU y0=; b=GHqDQJzVGfqjctqMMlQkYu71O1a07VVYp+wy0fhcgqP1XJRa29noNPlOZ 4wquF90qaFvqaybrTUP1rj8nTMGq8Yu+NJ9xfuHoARw9CXswrUHiu3JxhZ3v1fJf NDdWOGIEnjiln1clBFVcgX+AahkF0IWBzw2aA+hMnCr/LNkhn4UG0/aQThJn5NZq it9nvkTevhg/4zU1mThoQwHxF/MlDknGZdhwCw08KQkQjt+gq5+NQpTZBHrclpID mECaWy2RK7xtwopt93BdoELkaw+0Rnwf3++M2g3qQPQBDVS55nfdc2PrIlU66TYj cVbyr7zmOdT+yS/1rwEBsYp102JcA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedugedrtdeigdejtdcutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecusecvtfgvtghiphhivghnthhsucdlqddutddtmdenuc fjughrpegtggfuhfgjfffgkfhfvffosehtqhhmtdhhtddvnecuhfhrohhmpeforghrkhcu pfhothhtihhnghhhrghmuceomhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvtheqnecuffhomhgrihhnpe hgihhthhhusgdrtghomhdpmhhnohhtrdhnvghtnecukfhppedurddugeefrdduheefrddv geegnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtnecuve hluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptd X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [IPv6:2001:8004:1303:387:5c31:e881:537e:f5a2] (unknown [1.143.153.244]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 70C7E80061; Thu, 16 Jan 2020 23:39:16 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.40.2.2.4\)) Subject: Re: Consensus Calls for Late Stage Documents From: Mark Nottingham In-Reply-To: <43D8DACA-C1C4-449A-A4BC-4F0E6F8F1CAB@mnot.net> Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 14:39:09 +1000 Cc: Lars Eggert Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <983BC131-67E6-4DE1-A40F-0587E28B2085@mnot.net> References: <43D8DACA-C1C4-449A-A4BC-4F0E6F8F1CAB@mnot.net> To: IETF QUIC WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.40.2.2.4) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 04:39:24 -0000 Seeing no pushback, consensus is declared for all but #3094, where = discussion will continue. > On 6 Jan 2020, at 1:56 pm, Mark Nottingham wrote: >=20 > Happy New Year, Working Group. >=20 > The following issues have proposals for resolution, and discussion so = far seems to support consensus to accept them. If you object, please do = so on the issue or in response to this message (changing the Subject = appropriately!). Absent any pushback, we'll direct the editors to = incorporate them late next week. >=20 > See for the current = state of issues in the Late Stage process, itself defined at = . >=20 > * #3274: Encrypting Retry token > The proposal is >=20 > * #3247: I am concerned the congestion control text is too permissive. > The proposal is >=20 > * #3245: Make RFC 6928 normative > The proposal is >=20 > * #3244: Can we make a normative ref to RFC8085? > The proposal is >=20 > * #3243: Add caution when using IW10 and fragmentation=20 > The proposal is >=20 > * #3152: Client storage of tokens should be independent of other = stored state > The proposal is >=20 > * #3142: It is unspecified how a server sends Handshake packets during = / after migration > The proposal is >=20 > * #3094: congestion window increase on every ACKed packet could result = in bursty sends > The proposal is >=20 > * #3014: Handling of corrupt Retry packets > The proposal is >=20 > * #2863: unrecoverable loss pattern leads to deadlock > The proposal is >=20 > * #2789: Use a higher seed RTT for new paths > The proposal is to close with no action. >=20 > * #2744: Idle Timer Can Fire Even with Outstanding Data to Send > The proposal is >=20 > * #2602: Idle timeout needs more description and a recommendation > The proposal is >=20 >=20 > -- > Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ >=20 -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Fri Jan 17 02:23:42 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4543E120071 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2020 02:23:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4F55S7bImY0b for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2020 02:23:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from tlsmtp.bbc.co.uk (tlsmtp0.cwwtf.bbc.co.uk [132.185.160.172]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5331D120047 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2020 02:23:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from gateh.kw.bbc.co.uk ([10.118.193.77]) by tlsmtp.bbc.co.uk (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 00HANWP4003665 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2020 10:23:33 GMT Received: from mailhub0.rd.bbc.co.uk ([172.29.120.128]) by gateh.kw.bbc.co.uk (8.14.5+Sun/8.13.6) with ESMTP id 00HANWJI029757 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2020 10:23:32 GMT Received: from goliath.rd.bbc.co.uk ([172.29.90.42]:32898) by mailhub0.rd.bbc.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1isOmq-0008B5-A0 for quic@ietf.org; Fri, 17 Jan 2020 10:23:32 +0000 Subject: Re: QUIC use with multicast To: quic@ietf.org References: From: David Waring Message-ID: <50b1f5ae-bf18-1b0a-183a-e40b2bbe969c@rd.bbc.co.uk> Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 10:23:32 +0000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 10:23:40 -0000 Hi Gyan, You might want to look at https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-pardue-quic-http-mcast/ which looks at using HTTP/3 in QUIC over IP multicast. It not as simple as just using QUIC in multicast. As you point out, there are unidirectional streams, but these are encapsulated within a bidirectional QUIC session. The bidirectional nature is required to make the protocol reliable. Unfortunately bidirectional doesn't work well with multicast. The draft above makes the stream truly unidirectional by removing the ack system on the QUIC multicast session, which removes the reliability, but also means that the session no longer needs to send anything back from receiver to sender. A separate bidirectional unicast session is used to fill in any gaps in the data streams received. Another solution, which we considered as too complex at this stage, is to use multipath, with the unicast session being setup but using a second unidirectional multicast path to deliver the majority of shared content (live video stream for example). This would however require a separate packet number space for the multicast stream in order to share that path between multiple connections, which complicates the ack system and isn't catered for in the current incarnation of QUIC. But this is something we may look into in the future. Regards, David On 17/01/2020 02:05, Gyan Mishra wrote: > > QUIC WG > > Has anyone ever tried using QUIC with multicast RTP UDP streamed using > QUIC transport. > > Multicast has always been problematic with use on the internet MBONE and > even on intranets due the unreliable UDP RTP transport for MPEG4 MPEG-TS > and even newer protocols MPED-DASH abs and HLS multicast has struggled > with using UDP transport. > > Multicast has thus required stringent end to end QOS in profile > guaranteed scheduling bandwidth hop by hop PHB to ensue no drops to > avoid dropping of I frame resulting in client frozen window and buffering. > > Since QUIC is a secure reliable transport and supports unidirectional > flows it would be a perfect fit for multicast. > > This would be a game changer for multicast as over the internet which > you don’t have any QOS guarantee. > > Kind regards > > Gyan > > > -- > > Gyan  Mishra > > Network Engineering & Technology > > Verizon > > Silver Spring, MD 20904 > > Phone: 301 502-1347 > > Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com > > > -- David Waring, Project Software Engineer, BBC Research & Development From nobody Fri Jan 17 04:28:43 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 420B112003F for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2020 04:28:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.748 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.748 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rrM3xxBV6j32 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2020 04:28:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vs1-xe36.google.com (mail-vs1-xe36.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 01FAF12001A for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2020 04:28:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-vs1-xe36.google.com with SMTP id y125so14709838vsb.6 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2020 04:28:35 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=MscsCewiuFwDfsTB7Fc/1m5sg4pOI8W4DbMmIwN2vbU=; b=D1xcOWL856hDxVOCoMw8cka4BrOfKwKNrQbi2s4EglpSriHmKXnv1Z16axajsIP4oF oB/V5i4SViWJ2ojNhuO28zXL03aXh6jvlKfUXUR/sNIouEyqgjyIwniOkj0G5LPBEVST FOC1hILU6ttB9J9auOieP+gmECqpt4etlnWeQRWGFm4u+ln2wGQBWrljdcAZlFxmcsCC ucoNyEgFMZRLTroTWuP0X6Z2iPyWHJeJkDBXPOFYTfSa9IdlHvHfeOTg8JDwJ49D/6Il sc6kvunQkOtQmIczlpSUSpYlyZX2+rVeihynCuC80foPZs0E//AInFAZvTU0ml53ZP5C 3NSg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=MscsCewiuFwDfsTB7Fc/1m5sg4pOI8W4DbMmIwN2vbU=; b=uYGOkGgpGRdvPMR2jCZQCLi+b7EGL9rInhTaNQGsIwF+ll/Tz4wDQiqAzj+5rPr36h 63pSf8Exkz+3NUdlZ8yqu5JR7kSEvwUnJxGgJSXAeXfRT1TePJxriUaVrCXUTAa+ZZbQ N8A3lfB4VZoj4k3UGEoyn09MKI2UEnIuHOU22Bq/M3bJoDmLcwTCtLbtMSzsZj/ooDXy HwGydxtQGUHpPSAY9QUhnY5bvcqAFWv6w7mJrzsQ/WqlewvWFfpkIiobQjIqc4CKVsx4 311vM+uRY5BLhv1l5GRlUwVPjoAdLYny8TIQ0BCzwyZeBVCfdLoygfG/XCoiOa4z9hQZ nijg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXRunZnqgicN1cZyTuRI2lBfQlLSjyQmKVPSSVVfAMu7URSnfDK tByhTkTray7AqBmcLs2aeWPOZZlWuBy19eN40PdmBCsu X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxBINlwWWA+WJNmTJnpMt1X0Njgu/nN1am+irU9N+O0O1LPnZQq54sxksyOrrZ8FexO65FdHBz+27v2MUjL6x8= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6102:30a7:: with SMTP id y7mr4150648vsd.212.1579264115024; Fri, 17 Jan 2020 04:28:35 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <50b1f5ae-bf18-1b0a-183a-e40b2bbe969c@rd.bbc.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <50b1f5ae-bf18-1b0a-183a-e40b2bbe969c@rd.bbc.co.uk> From: Lucas Pardue Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 12:28:23 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: QUIC use with multicast To: David Waring Cc: QUIC WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000952c20059c5514b3" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 12:28:42 -0000 --000000000000952c20059c5514b3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Gyan, Speaking as an individual, and author on the above mentioned I-D, I think you've touched on quite a few interrelated topics in quite a succinct question. Teasing them apart a little bit, the things that stand out to me are listed below. Many of turn out not to be QUIC specific, or even multicast specific, and are probably better addressed in various other IETF WGs or areas; some under active discussion right now. * Interdomain multicast on unmanaged networks (including ingress to or egress from cloud providers). Covering both vanilla MBONE-like deployments, or some kind of tunnelling between publisher and subscriber * Multicast in managed networks. * Multicast in WiFi networks. * "Congestion control" or how to avoid detrimental over subscription. Covering both accidental and malign causes. * Management and Operability of multicast and video-oriented traffic more generally. * Loss detection and recovery. Including tunable FEC. * Discoverability, handover and fallback. * Confidentiality, Authentication and Integrity. * Unidirectional transports (of at least one path in a "connection"). * Mapping of application layers to QUIC. For your example, RTP over QUIC might be achievable via encapsulation in DATAGRAM[] frames or a more-specific TRP application mapping document e.g. draft-rtpfolks-quic-rtp-over-quic-01. Cheers Lucas --000000000000952c20059c5514b3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Gyan,

Speaking as an indi= vidual, and author on the above mentioned I-D, I think you've touched o= n quite a few interrelated topics in quite a succinct question. Teasing the= m apart a little bit, the things that stand out to me are listed below. Man= y of turn out not to be QUIC specific, or even multicast specific, and are = probably better addressed in various other IETF WGs or areas; some under ac= tive discussion right now.

* Interdomain multi= cast on unmanaged networks (including ingress to or egress from cloud provi= ders). Covering both vanilla MBONE-like deployments, or some kind of tunnel= ling between publisher and subscriber
* Multicast in managed netw= orks.
* Multicast in WiFi networks.
* "Congest= ion control" or how to avoid detrimental over subscription. Covering b= oth accidental and malign causes.
* Management and Operability of= multicast and video-oriented traffic more generally.
* Loss = detection and recovery. Including tunable FEC.
* Discoverabil= ity, handover and fallback.
* Confidentiality, Authentication and= Integrity.
* Unidirectional transports (of at least one pat= h in a "connection").
* Mapping of application layers t= o QUIC. For your example, RTP over QUIC might be achievable via encapsulati= on in DATAGRAM[] frames or a more-specific TRP application mapping document= e.g. draft-rtpfolks-quic-rtp-over-quic-01.

Cheers=
Lucas

--000000000000952c20059c5514b3-- From nobody Fri Jan 17 06:38:36 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A360A12002F for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2020 06:38:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fFZy0vL7JcHE for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2020 06:38:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.fh-muenster.de (mail.fh-muenster.de [212.201.120.190]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4D84F120074 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2020 06:38:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from fhad-ex04.fhad.fh-muenster.de (unknown [10.40.11.27]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.fh-muenster.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F1334285211 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2020 15:38:29 +0100 (CET) Received: from fhad-ex03.fhad.fh-muenster.de (10.40.11.26) by fhad-ex04.fhad.fh-muenster.de (10.40.11.27) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1847.3; Fri, 17 Jan 2020 15:38:29 +0100 Received: from fhad-ex03.fhad.fh-muenster.de ([fe80::d4ba:be3f:f532:b60a]) by fhad-ex03.fhad.fh-muenster.de ([fe80::d4ba:be3f:f532:b60a%2]) with mapi id 15.01.1847.005; Fri, 17 Jan 2020 15:38:29 +0100 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Timo_V=F6lker?= To: "quic@ietf.org" Subject: Ack Delay Thread-Topic: Ack Delay Thread-Index: AQHVzUPJ1/H5MxoXSkmsq5mfGDYKWA== Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 14:38:29 +0000 Message-ID: <21866129-DC80-4817-90AF-202E4586D8F8@fh-muenster.de> Accept-Language: en-US, de-DE Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.40.10.31] Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_788D4A8F-E4C2-4F24-9967-0A8B21CF31C4"; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 14:38:35 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_788D4A8F-E4C2-4F24-9967-0A8B21CF31C4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi everybody, I have two minor issues with the text in the transport/recovery draft = regarding ack delay. 1. Measuring Ack Delay In quic-transport draft, the first sentence of section 13.2.5. tells me = that the ack delay depends on the last received ack-eliciting packet. An endpoint measures the delays intentionally introduced between when an ack-eliciting packet is received and the corresponding acknowledgment is sent. This does not match to my understanding of ack delay. That is, ack delay = describes the time between an ACK frame was sent and the largest = acknowledged packet (even if it is a non-ack-eliciting one) was = received. I propose to remove "ack-eliciting" in this sentence. 2. Ack Delay scaling In quic-recovery draft, sections 4.3. and A.6. describe how to use the = value from the ack delay field of an ACK frame without mentioning the = ack_delay_exponent. I propose to include the ack_delay_exponent in the = pseudo code or, alternatively, add a note that mentions the = ack_delay_exponent. Either of them would have helped me to interpret the = value correctly. 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X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWmDsUiuv5fjz6vKEeRf2Ng2VGj96asxRGkzcKaMk4CUEN3jZFM GQHPf6eDVai+x09NJUl37xPfb83c3fttXRJd8uOP9A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwyrHuwwJ9WHPnVdsIe/b/IsdjfcFoD4UR1zrcjxRjW1m3IyriUxKpbEh1o7xqqgSExT9/YCOndPmSddMnk6DA= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:40c9:: with SMTP id b9mr4741504wrq.419.1579287063585; Fri, 17 Jan 2020 10:51:03 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <21866129-DC80-4817-90AF-202E4586D8F8@fh-muenster.de> In-Reply-To: <21866129-DC80-4817-90AF-202E4586D8F8@fh-muenster.de> From: Ian Swett Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 13:50:51 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Ack Delay To: =?UTF-8?B?VGltbyBWw7Zsa2Vy?= Cc: "quic@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006cbf6a059c5a6c33" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 18:51:11 -0000 --0000000000006cbf6a059c5a6c33 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks, comments inline. On Fri, Jan 17, 2020 at 9:38 AM Timo V=C3=B6lker wrote: > Hi everybody, > > I have two minor issues with the text in the transport/recovery draft > regarding ack delay. > > 1. Measuring Ack Delay > > In quic-transport draft, the first sentence of section 13.2.5. tells me > that the ack delay depends on the last received ack-eliciting packet. > > An endpoint measures the delays intentionally introduced between when > an ack-eliciting packet is received and the corresponding > acknowledgment is sent. > This does not match to my understanding of ack delay. That is, ack delay > describes the time between an ACK frame was sent and the largest > acknowledged packet (even if it is a non-ack-eliciting one) was received.= I > propose to remove "ack-eliciting" in this sentence. > I think your suggestion is a good one, though I may attempt a slightly larger change to make the entire paragraph a bit clearer. > > 2. Ack Delay scaling > > In quic-recovery draft, sections 4.3. and A.6. describe how to use the > value from the ack delay field of an ACK frame without mentioning the > ack_delay_exponent. I propose to include the ack_delay_exponent in the > pseudo code or, alternatively, add a note that mentions the > ack_delay_exponent. Either of them would have helped me to interpret the > value correctly. > https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3355 filed to add a note about ack_delay_exponent. > > Timo > > --0000000000006cbf6a059c5a6c33 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks, comments inline.

On Fri, Jan 17, 2020 at 9:38 = AM Timo V=C3=B6lker <timo= .voelker@fh-muenster.de> wrote:
Hi everybody,

I have two minor issues with the text in the transport/recovery draft regar= ding ack delay.

1. Measuring Ack Delay

In quic-transport draft, the first sentence of section 13.2.5. tells me tha= t the ack delay depends on the last received ack-eliciting packet.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0An endpoint measures the delays intentionally introduced betwe= en when
=C2=A0 =C2=A0an ack-eliciting packet is received and the corresponding
=C2=A0 =C2=A0acknowledgment is sent.=C2=A0

This does not match to my understanding of ack delay. That is, ack delay de= scribes the time between an ACK frame was sent and the largest acknowledged= packet (even if it is a non-ack-eliciting one) was received. I propose to = remove "ack-eliciting" in this sentence.
I think your suggestion is a good one, though I may attempt a s= lightly larger change to make the entire paragraph a bit clearer.

2. Ack Delay scaling

In quic-recovery draft, sections 4.3. and A.6. describe how to use the valu= e from the ack delay field of an ACK frame without mentioning the ack_delay= _exponent. I propose to include the ack_delay_exponent in the pseudo code o= r, alternatively, add a note that mentions the ack_delay_exponent. Either o= f them would have helped me to interpret the value correctly.

https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3355=C2=A0filed = to add a note about ack_delay_exponent.=C2=A0

Timo

--0000000000006cbf6a059c5a6c33-- From nobody Fri Jan 17 12:13:11 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E7F81200D6 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2020 12:13:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MqQWuGKcMVHp for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2020 12:13:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx36-out10.antispamcloud.com (mx36-out10.antispamcloud.com [209.126.121.30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 007E11200A4 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2020 12:13:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from xse460.mail2web.com ([66.113.197.206] helo=xse.mail2web.com) by mx62.antispamcloud.com with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1isXzM-0009OD-Vz for quic@ietf.org; Fri, 17 Jan 2020 21:13:06 +0100 Received: from xsmtp22.mail2web.com (unknown [10.100.68.61]) by xse.mail2web.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47zsgf2mnWz44d4 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2020 12:13:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.5.2.14] (helo=xmail04.myhosting.com) by xsmtp22.mail2web.com with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1isXzK-0003M4-8N for quic@ietf.org; Fri, 17 Jan 2020 12:13:02 -0800 Received: (qmail 21271 invoked from network); 17 Jan 2020 20:13:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.200.64]) (Authenticated-user:_huitema@huitema.net@[72.235.197.82]) (envelope-sender ) by xmail04.myhosting.com (qmail-ldap-1.03) with ESMTPA for ; 17 Jan 2020 20:13:01 -0000 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-CA19D98F-14A2-4018-AA10-35A3991A8337 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Christian Huitema Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Subject: Re: Ack Delay Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 10:13:00 -1000 Message-Id: <52E731DE-F96D-4B68-B62D-DD877F26DC32@huitema.net> References: Cc: =?utf-8?Q?Timo_V=C3=B6lker?= , "quic@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: To: Ian Swett X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17C54) X-Originating-IP: 66.113.197.206 X-Spampanel-Domain: xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Username: 66.113.197.0/24 Authentication-Results: antispamcloud.com; auth=pass smtp.auth=66.113.197.0/24@xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Class: ham X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.08) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: Mvzo4OR0dZXEDF/gcnlw0YvzwMmgjmY0UwihWARy7g6pSDasLI4SayDByyq9LIhVLIn9QqZzo73B u43qWQtA+0TNWdUk1Ol2OGx3IfrIJKywOmJyM1qr8uRnWBrbSAGDcnqpk5VeF3xR4kF6iVwRtbgN zB/4Jkrw1eDLcif59fsp3OedQzISbAK1K3iSq0L6U7Tmz6iKnkQL9gqsxD347235Nhqq+/HvroPq 8GSPg+5aB4itzNZ07CdqP+KMfGjQfOdU2kQFJEzfkq4ITozmM46jSvfpO+1kZkomjtjB6X7/nuj3 koRhn2BlE7dXoT0pGVmhMAaQ/AfCRwRe7yHm5oY+NYmsSGn+svMubxnbgm1cr18FZBEPC2/c16Xd 7sC9aC4xteE1WLqGS9YoqrsZ2DyteN0e+ECCv9/f+GPymkgDVo7QBKA4MctKq4ifYPcXFRL2K3LA EfDXVOdt7wDbusYnuEVWSxKMHbU0zkNM3EElFDaoLuOPKc8gc82pKfhB7T02ZXdoQxMs//iOE4Fl hiCv9TR+UxzLZWL8hwGBjhoI3W+YcuHfP5PkZb5A+wE5qGdpH54Oa3V8I76VOEvlwB+XPdEXquZ7 t0MUOMrNUB3ffy/lWBtKgE7/B4q5Qh1gTlXrD2KVBUkAtPoM3pdBrwzaip3fHpaTYscdez0tlz3v 5pWb82qAoDl3ILGSF0vmDvI0DEihOd7XzCAIcFZdY11677oPXF7r5zsW33ZNliqQWXiK63IBlEyx 50xFFL1+inurZ3735mFQrc40fVtRx9Q84QG89JN6MvpNdzLqW7oOmGqlR8Lr0m2hhcMlAkxwHHAS JNUmoOHSoqgqxfHmWRWcrRhLeB34s3hUb32GO+1lUpqRKHIa0SXOR/G5fMOU08QV3No+S2msRDep v5w/kkG0v17AmegcpQ0tml/sN9lmMy/o83jVXTcfb9k0nLWblJy7uxV6dw8jzlsaNZe6hynMJcjx DydxsJEju76A7X1QIVydqXpZ6MHhiKws9Iiut28r9wo4SqUIg8Yh9hAM0n3LLzx/F2gT3wl8JQJv Bho= X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@quarantine11.antispamcloud.com Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 20:13:10 -0000 --Apple-Mail-CA19D98F-14A2-4018-AA10-35A3991A8337 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There are two different usage of ack delay. The implementation has an intern= al concept of how long to wait before acking a packet; this is the delay bet= ween ack time and the oldest ack-eliciting packet. The ACK frame has an ACK d= elay field; this is the delay between ACK time and the highest-numbered acke= d packet, which may very well be non ack eliciting. -- Christian Huitema=20 > On Jan 17, 2020, at 8:51 AM, Ian Swett wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF > Thanks, comments inline. >=20 >> On Fri, Jan 17, 2020 at 9:38 AM Timo V=C3=B6lker wrote: >> Hi everybody, >>=20 >> I have two minor issues with the text in the transport/recovery draft reg= arding ack delay. >>=20 >> 1. Measuring Ack Delay >>=20 >> In quic-transport draft, the first sentence of section 13.2.5. tells me t= hat the ack delay depends on the last received ack-eliciting packet. >>=20 >> An endpoint measures the delays intentionally introduced between when >> an ack-eliciting packet is received and the corresponding >> acknowledgment is sent.=20 >>=20 >> This does not match to my understanding of ack delay. That is, ack delay d= escribes the time between an ACK frame was sent and the largest acknowledged= packet (even if it is a non-ack-eliciting one) was received. I propose to r= emove "ack-eliciting" in this sentence. >=20 > I think your suggestion is a good one, though I may attempt a slightly lar= ger change to make the entire paragraph a bit clearer. >>=20 >> 2. Ack Delay scaling >>=20 >> In quic-recovery draft, sections 4.3. and A.6. describe how to use the va= lue from the ack delay field of an ACK frame without mentioning the ack_dela= y_exponent. I propose to include the ack_delay_exponent in the pseudo code o= r, alternatively, add a note that mentions the ack_delay_exponent. Either of= them would have helped me to interpret the value correctly. >=20 > https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3355 filed to add a note abou= t ack_delay_exponent.=20 >>=20 >> Timo >>=20 --Apple-Mail-CA19D98F-14A2-4018-AA10-35A3991A8337 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There are two different usage of ack delay.= The implementation has an internal concept of how long to wait before ackin= g a packet; this is the delay between ack time and the oldest ack-eliciting p= acket. The ACK frame has an ACK delay field; this is the delay between ACK t= ime and the highest-numbered acked packet, which may very well be non ack el= iciting.

-- Christian Huitema 

On Jan 17, 2020, at 8:51 AM, Ian Swett &= lt;ianswett=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

=EF=BB=BF
Thanks, comments inline.

On Fri, Jan 17, 2020 at 9:38 AM Timo V=C3=B6lker <= ;timo..voelker@fh-muenster.de= > wrote:
Hi= everybody,

I have two minor issues with the text in the transport/recovery draft regard= ing ack delay.

1. Measuring Ack Delay

In quic-transport draft, the first sentence of section 13.2.5. tells me that= the ack delay depends on the last received ack-eliciting packet.

   An endpoint measures the delays intentionally introduced betwee= n when
   an ack-eliciting packet is received and the corresponding
   acknowledgment is sent. 

This does not match to my understanding of ack delay. That is, ack delay des= cribes the time between an ACK frame was sent and the largest acknowledged p= acket (even if it is a non-ack-eliciting one) was received. I propose to rem= ove "ack-eliciting" in this sentence.

I t= hink your suggestion is a good one, though I may attempt a slightly larger c= hange to make the entire paragraph a bit clearer.

2. Ack Delay scaling

In quic-recovery draft, sections 4.3. and A.6. describe how to use the value= from the ack delay field of an ACK frame without mentioning the ack_delay_e= xponent. I propose to include the ack_delay_exponent in the pseudo code or, a= lternatively, add a note that mentions the ack_delay_exponent. Either of the= m would have helped me to interpret the value correctly.

https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3355 filed to add a= note about ack_delay_exponent. 

Timo

= --Apple-Mail-CA19D98F-14A2-4018-AA10-35A3991A8337-- From nobody Fri Jan 17 15:33:32 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DD5012009E for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2020 15:33:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Xj2SElzTRt7O for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2020 15:33:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-il1-x12d.google.com (mail-il1-x12d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3B2C5120091 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2020 15:33:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-il1-x12d.google.com with SMTP id c4so22689063ilo.7 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2020 15:33:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=YYNHjHV3YuO6ErozJqTDdsiR53CjI/+SM+SnKPAWJGw=; b=IK1byv7wq3xeumBr0FbSdhewbjbK3z6vAgi83yh47vPde33FJKMVFK1iqsObq4ZeTu t27/dtgSwTj0yCTWX8Ed1Xf3fhlnKRc24nKa3P1zOJHr2n3lOczT3NAWILObDs7sG0aM GDg3E6s9dCy/aCpkf6HTNlMe5SONAp2X4+qTlcYWwQ/8PLjy8ZTGfb5Vf7IrrCSJ7IHc hv/Tx8WQyadjb2agyc8NCK97bebHXpTkMEtbu2qzq2hApLnYQgS8/oo599MC0FcGHVNN ayWfOh92JnevZ/eJREsyQlRQVUOa0MMNd/o8/3Nf07j+tHNaK7xX9CfmEUKzKICn5i9K KN1w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=YYNHjHV3YuO6ErozJqTDdsiR53CjI/+SM+SnKPAWJGw=; b=bi1FHOcUZt3fU30l7XN7sTVGXZidPfqJYxpgDsoqkmw8cWXtgYyUFPkrcGVIV/0Fx4 KpVxcrVEHLa0k2J9e5sJJpeerBQft9Egs/iXYAUeNmBkqvSuwsxBrlg3ExksCSXMreGD nKK5UvdCSnybcUmq27RlAtvF2uQPnwr58rluA9biRXr1F4X+xtydU8Rv9I+tlV/cmvoD tBStU6SoxEDsTTAhbxdzt91KRs5LOHaZV64VITrFj3qHX3CFwTK17nA6hzkUHXY+mMzn fYL0043t2tKZ1XNvtDpxOsfFbCbmzepbx/8ac1iTyd777SE56z1Sxgcr4l9IbHew/RZy tM2g== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUARBoOy5a/kc4+72EZ45Bar73ghfmqR8vrwF5iSbtO90ujL2bw zdfimAv5yb0eZIRNj4C90um9WZ+6BU4gyBiFDtI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxQfmZsDae9muO3zZrQT9jmvBFBTia5g0ih2WAYyEgSNkMO83sSTRRekR93I46E1smRCkalyLVs7fIZTh+Prfo= X-Received: by 2002:a92:4e:: with SMTP id 75mr927445ila.276.1579304005265; Fri, 17 Jan 2020 15:33:25 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <50b1f5ae-bf18-1b0a-183a-e40b2bbe969c@rd.bbc.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <50b1f5ae-bf18-1b0a-183a-e40b2bbe969c@rd.bbc.co.uk> From: Gyan Mishra Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 18:33:14 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: QUIC use with multicast To: David Waring Cc: quic@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000039ebf0059c5e5e9b" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 23:33:30 -0000 --00000000000039ebf0059c5e5e9b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks David Glad to hear that QUIC WG is looking at this gap that exists with today=E2= =80=99s udp RTP multicast unreliable transport and a means of leveraging QUIC to make it reliable. I read the draft mentioned QUIC-http-multicast, which provides a means via http/3 to carry multicast in QUIC, however since multicast has to be unidirectional, a special QUIC profile is created that eliminates ACK by receiver for multicast to work which makes it an unreliable transport and unfortunately in the same boat as RTP udp based multicast. I would be very interested in developing the possible multipath draft described as using a separate unicast control channel for the connection establishment carrying the ACK and a separate data channel carrying the live video stream. Just an idea. Is it possible to use the datagram draft below for the live video data channel and use the main QUIC transport draft for the bidirectional control channel. The QUIC transport channel would provide control mechanism to provide feedback in quality from the RTCP packets at the receiver end to retransmit packets over the datagram channel. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-pauly-quic-datagram/ Kind regards Gyan On Fri, Jan 17, 2020 at 5:23 AM David Waring wrote: > Hi Gyan, > > You might want to look at > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-pardue-quic-http-mcast/ > which looks at using HTTP/3 in QUIC over IP multicast. > > It not as simple as just using QUIC in multicast. As you point out, > there are unidirectional streams, but these are encapsulated within a > bidirectional QUIC session. The bidirectional nature is required to make > the protocol reliable. Unfortunately bidirectional doesn't work well > with multicast. > > The draft above makes the stream truly unidirectional by removing the > ack system on the QUIC multicast session, which removes the reliability, > but also means that the session no longer needs to send anything back > from receiver to sender. A separate bidirectional unicast session is > used to fill in any gaps in the data streams received. > > Another solution, which we considered as too complex at this stage, is > to use multipath, with the unicast session being setup but using a > second unidirectional multicast path to deliver the majority of shared > content (live video stream for example). This would however require a > separate packet number space for the multicast stream in order to share > that path between multiple connections, which complicates the ack system > and isn't catered for in the current incarnation of QUIC. But this is > something we may look into in the future. > > Regards, > David > > On 17/01/2020 02:05, Gyan Mishra wrote: > > > > QUIC WG > > > > Has anyone ever tried using QUIC with multicast RTP UDP streamed using > > QUIC transport. > > > > Multicast has always been problematic with use on the internet MBONE an= d > > even on intranets due the unreliable UDP RTP transport for MPEG4 MPEG-T= S > > and even newer protocols MPED-DASH abs and HLS multicast has struggled > > with using UDP transport. > > > > Multicast has thus required stringent end to end QOS in profile > > guaranteed scheduling bandwidth hop by hop PHB to ensue no drops to > > avoid dropping of I frame resulting in client frozen window and > buffering. > > > > Since QUIC is a secure reliable transport and supports unidirectional > > flows it would be a perfect fit for multicast. > > > > This would be a game changer for multicast as over the internet which > > you don=E2=80=99t have any QOS guarantee. > > > > Kind regards > > > > Gyan > > > > > > -- > > > > Gyan Mishra > > > > Network Engineering & Technology > > > > Verizon > > > > Silver Spring, MD 20904 > > > > Phone: 301 502-1347 > > > > Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com > > > > > > > -- > David Waring, Project Software Engineer, BBC Research & Development > > -- Gyan Mishra Network Engineering & Technology Verizon Silver Spring, MD 20904 Phone: 301 502-1347 Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com --00000000000039ebf0059c5e5e9b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thanks David=C2=A0
=
Glad to hear that QUIC WG is looking at this ga= p that exists with today=E2=80=99s =C2=A0udp RTP multicast unreliable trans= port and a means of leveraging QUIC to make it reliable.

I read the draft mentioned QUIC-http-multi= cast, which provides a means via http/3 to carry multicast in QUIC, however= since multicast has to be unidirectional, a special QUIC profile is create= d that eliminates ACK by receiver for multicast to work =C2=A0which makes i= t an unreliable transport and unfortunately in the same boat as RTP udp bas= ed multicast.

I would be= very interested in developing the possible multipath draft described as us= ing a separate unicast control channel for the connection establishment car= rying the ACK and a separate =C2=A0data channel carrying the live video str= eam. =C2=A0

Just an idea= .

Is it possible to use = the datagram draft below for the live video data channel and use the main Q= UIC transport draft for the bidirectional control channel.

The QUIC transport channel would provide= control mechanism to provide feedback in quality from the RTCP packets at = the receiver end to retransmit packets over the datagram channel.


Kind=C2= =A0regards

Gyan

On F= ri, Jan 17, 2020 at 5:23 AM David Waring <david.waring@rd.bbc.co.uk> wrote:
Hi Gyan,

You might want to look at
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft= -pardue-quic-http-mcast/
which looks at using HTTP/3 in QUIC over IP multicast.

It not as simple as just using QUIC in multicast. As you point out,
there are unidirectional streams, but these are encapsulated within a
bidirectional QUIC session. The bidirectional nature is required to make the protocol reliable. Unfortunately bidirectional doesn't work well with multicast.

The draft above makes the stream truly unidirectional by removing the
ack system on the QUIC multicast session, which removes the reliability, but also means that the session no longer needs to send anything back
from receiver to sender. A separate bidirectional unicast session is
used to fill in any gaps in the data streams received.

Another solution, which we considered as too complex at this stage, is
to use multipath, with the unicast session being setup but using a
second unidirectional multicast path to deliver the majority of shared
content (live video stream for example). This would however require a
separate packet number space for the multicast stream in order to share that path between multiple connections, which complicates the ack system and isn't catered for in the current incarnation of QUIC. But this is <= br> something we may look into in the future.

Regards,
David

On 17/01/2020 02:05, Gyan Mishra wrote:
>
> QUIC WG
>
> Has anyone ever tried using QUIC with multicast RTP UDP streamed using=
> QUIC transport.
>
> Multicast has always been problematic with use on the internet MBONE a= nd
> even on intranets due the unreliable UDP RTP transport for MPEG4 MPEG-= TS
> and even newer protocols MPED-DASH abs and HLS multicast has struggled=
> with using UDP transport.
>
> Multicast has thus required stringent end to end QOS in profile
> guaranteed scheduling bandwidth hop by hop PHB to ensue no drops to > avoid dropping of I frame resulting in client frozen window and buffer= ing.
>
> Since QUIC is a secure reliable transport and supports unidirectional =
> flows it would be a perfect fit for multicast.
>
> This would be a game changer for multicast as over the internet which =
> you don=E2=80=99t have any QOS guarantee.
>
> Kind=C2=A0regards
>
> Gyan
>
>
> --
>
> Gyan=C2=A0 Mishra
>
> Network Engineering & Technology
>
> Verizon
>
> Silver Spring, MD 20904
>
> Phone: 301 502-1347
>
> Email: = gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com <mailto:gyan.s.mishra@verizon.com>
>
>
>
--
David Waring, Project Software Engineer, BBC Research & Development

--
<= div dir=3D"ltr">

Gyan= =C2=A0 Mishra

Network Engineering & Technology= =C2=A0

Verizon=C2=A0

Silver Spring, MD 20= 904

Phone: 301 502-1347

<= font size=3D"1" color=3D"#000000" face=3D"georgia, serif">Email: gyan.s.mishra@verizon.= com



--00000000000039ebf0059c5e5e9b-- From nobody Fri Jan 17 15:57:13 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED4A0120086 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2020 15:57:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.748 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.748 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AX3cx42kOMOW for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2020 15:57:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vs1-xe35.google.com (mail-vs1-xe35.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9DFE812006B for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2020 15:57:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-vs1-xe35.google.com with SMTP id s16so15897692vsc.10 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 2020 15:57:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=f4/Eezb6632yKMGuJvnbx5mVRtonX/Z6ZhA5DOg7Fcg=; b=vVN9XvIuSMyyx7VrmGHH2mZVGG2B2Pf6AHBoGpEX0cREoZtzkwLenDehFx4hFnSDxv jLqTS8LqPeSvoHkrTPUvvyq6hxkCiHETssYUVLRIXe5pi7YbMXcwWpKyhRuJTpC3Glzh AvoDG6l9mbgtxUnEzA/PeXp3w3xyS8mDmvISKZjHvQePb8X/AFP5hIrE1KhNIQZ+toUk p6vykMA2tsKWZs9kQ+KBoK9fpzTSoNokgluVaek9tGFXbB8MVW+G4ALqhY6/L4Vu5aH1 T/wwHMx6c23rZGqHg43P83QOmNnyXB2pBIylWfSp3jIMhwbfz6VIstdEaBkc5jG6URQR oU4w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=f4/Eezb6632yKMGuJvnbx5mVRtonX/Z6ZhA5DOg7Fcg=; b=FOWlPKG0pTFiTXhnK6Xl55iz0zXIF6aoRggdEdzaFRUy0gBqxcMUlTTSJ6P8/Y0kf4 hmZGl+sukVH+lWEe33u0n42zmvg+Z7OdCnjaDCApFiqnSnwzB+ixYDh23Ay18ErlV0MZ sFsQwFuksSdyhyfCd3vqrcIgHHZMsCxJhylBZoA6w5jlfaM9cTESYh4IPx1W9QrLFYVl L6jKxllHL3S2GCai0WNJAbEFPmVVCsterhvcjJPUrwx82c+/Q+E9EYTp6P8Wv664QA/f Q6gjFBRJ3+YeD3h0a3Sa5CPYC+S8bynyD68TJp21SdGDF5WQvTTBlk6iIo/cqm+ug43E ypJA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWhVKLKW3VpZyxbvQmn38jCSldhfhqpr0PZWWiFU7jUldLLK4T8 DNf6pTEb0OQNg0OEl+y9e5mcbayi6kn7l/r4/NI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxsa9tmDZNjqSCiQDO0uZvi3178shfOq40Otdto+Za20b8nXGDJEMQI1BkKCl9lzp14KQAblXL9cD+mc+YYCjQ= X-Received: by 2002:a67:e2c4:: with SMTP id i4mr6885403vsm.143.1579305428543; Fri, 17 Jan 2020 15:57:08 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <50b1f5ae-bf18-1b0a-183a-e40b2bbe969c@rd.bbc.co.uk> In-Reply-To: From: Lucas Pardue Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 23:56:57 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: QUIC use with multicast To: Gyan Mishra Cc: David Waring , QUIC WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000f7d5f059c5eb376" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 23:57:11 -0000 --0000000000000f7d5f059c5eb376 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey Gyan, Picking up on one thing: On Fri, Jan 17, 2020 at 11:33 PM Gyan Mishra wrote: > Glad to hear that QUIC WG is looking at this gap that exists with today= =E2=80=99s > udp RTP multicast unreliable transport and a means of leveraging QUIC to > make it reliable. > Just to be clear here, the gap you describe is not covered by an item in the QUIC charter. draft-pardue-quic-http-mcast is an Individual Draft and not a QUIC Working Group document. Cheers Lucas --0000000000000f7d5f059c5eb376 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hey Gyan,

P= icking up on one thing:

On Fri, Jan 17, 2020 at 11:33 PM Gyan Mish= ra <hayabusagsm@gmail.com&g= t; wrote:
Glad to hear that QUIC WG is looking at= this gap that exists with today=E2=80=99s =C2=A0udp RTP multicast unreliab= le transport and a means of leveraging QUIC to make it reliable.

Just to be clear here, the gap you describe is = not covered by an item in the QUIC charter. draft-pardue-quic-http-mcast is= an Individual Draft and not a QUIC Working Group document.

<= /div>
Cheers
Lucas
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Sun, 19 Jan 2020 02:32:19 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="===============6140724701962377437==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Repository Activity Summary Bot To: quic@ietf.org Subject: Weekly github digest (QUIC Activity Summary) Message-Id: <20200119073219.DDE4F30609BB@mailuser.nyi.internal> Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2020 02:32:19 -0500 (EST) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2020 07:32:26 -0000 --===============6140724701962377437== MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format="flowed" Events without label "editorial" Issues ------ * quicwg/base-drafts (+9/-10/=F0=9F=92=AC46) 9 issues created: - Retry integrity protection should not add new requirements to TLS API (= by kazuho) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3366=20 - max_ack_delay should be in us, not ms (by ianswett) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3363 [-transport]=20 - Only send one immediate ACK after reordering (by ianswett) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3357 [-transport]=20 - Description of the use of Preferred Address is unclear (by kazuho) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3353=20 - Ignoring ACK delay can result in wrong RTT calculations (by kixelated) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3350=20 - Which DCID do Handshake retransmissions use? (by marten-seemann) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3348=20 - Define how an "out of order" packet is detected (by janaiyengar) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3347=20 - Remove mention of round-trip time in HTTP/3 (by LPardue) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3346=20 - Clarify what "prohibited header fields" are (by kazuho) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3345=20 11 issues received 46 new comments: - #3357 Only send one immediate ACK after reordering (1 by ianswett) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3357 [-transport]=20 - #3353 Description of the use of Preferred Address is unclear (5 by Mike= Bishop, ianswett, kazuho) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3353 [-transport]=20 - #3350 Ignoring ACK delay can result in wrong RTT calculations (5 by ian= swett, janaiyengar, kixelated) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3350 [-recovery]=20 - #3348 Which DCID do Handshake retransmissions use? (20 by DavidSchinazi= , MikeBishop, ianswett, janaiyengar, kazuho, marten-seemann, martinthomson,= nibanks, tatsuhiro-t) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3348 [-transport]=20 - #3346 Remove mention of round-trip time in HTTP/3 (3 by MikeBishop, kaz= uho) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3346=20 - #3345 Clarify the definition of things that make messages malformed (1 = by MikeBishop) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3345 [-http]=20 - #3340 Anti-amplification limits should count junk too (3 by ianswett, k= azuho, marten-seemann) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3340 [-transport]=20 - #3333 Padding outside QUIC packet (3 by agrover, ekr, kazuho) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3333 [-transport]=20 - #3325 Grease HTTP/3 error codes (1 by MikeBishop) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3325 [-http]=20 - #3300 Forwarding upstream errors, and the implications (2 by MikeBishop= , kazuho) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3300 [-http]=20 - #3094 congestion window increase on every ACKed packet could result in = bursty sends (2 by martinthomson, tfpauly) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3094 [-recovery] [design] = [proposal-ready]=20 10 issues closed: - It is unspecified how a server sends Handshake packets during / after m= igration https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3142 [-transport] [de= sign] [has-consensus]=20 - unrecoverable loss pattern leads to deadlock https://github.com/quicwg/= base-drafts/issues/2863 [-transport] [design] [has-consensus]=20 - Client storage of tokens should be independent of other stored state ht= tps://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3152 [-transport] [design] [has-= consensus]=20 - Add caution when using IW10 and fragmentation https://github.com/quicw= g/base-drafts/issues/3243 [-transport] [design] [has-consensus]=20 - Make RFC 6928 normative https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/32= 45 [-recovery] [design] [has-consensus]=20 - Can we make a normative ref to RFC8085? https://github.com/quicwg/base= -drafts/issues/3244 [-recovery] [design] [has-consensus]=20 - I am concerned the congestion control text is too permissive. https://g= ithub.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3247 [-recovery] [design] [has-consensu= s]=20 - Encrypting Retry token https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/327= 4 [-tls] [design] [has-consensus]=20 - Handling of corrupt Retry packets https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts= /issues/3014 [-transport] [design] [has-consensus]=20 - Forwarding upstream errors, and the implications https://github.com/qui= cwg/base-drafts/issues/3300 [-http]=20 Pull requests ------------- * quicwg/base-drafts (+9/-7/=F0=9F=92=AC10) 9 pull requests submitted: - Remove hole left in error codes from early response removal. (by scalab= lecory) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3367=20 - for Retry integrity protection, use values that can be derived from AEA= D API (by kazuho) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3365=20 - Change max_ack_delay to microseconds (by ianswett) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3364 [-transport]=20 - Ack delays are adjusted by ack_delay_exponent (by ianswett) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3362 [-recovery]=20 - Only send one immediate ACK (by ianswett) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3361 [-transport]=20 - Better describe the use of Preferred Address (by kazuho) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3354=20 - Clarify and split the "malformed" definition (by MikeBishop) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3352 [-http]=20 - Specify pacing to allow decoupling from congestion window increase (by = goelvidhi) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3351=20 - Clarify section on negotiating connection IDs (by janaiyengar) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3349=20 6 pull requests received 10 new comments: - #3354 Better describe the use of Preferred Address (1 by kazuho) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3354 [-transport]=20 - #3352 Clarify and split the "malformed" definition (1 by MikeBishop) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3352 [-http]=20 - #3351 Specify pacing to allow decoupling from congestion window increas= e (1 by martinthomson) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3351 [-recovery]=20 - #3337 Add note that middleboxes might change datagram boundaries (1 by = erickinnear) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3337 [-transport]=20 - #3336 Limit fallout of on-stream badness (3 by MikeBishop, martinthomso= n) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3336 [-http]=20 - #3120 Add retry integrity tag (3 by huitema, kazuho) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3120 [-tls] [-transport] [de= sign]=20 7 pull requests merged: - use a HANDSHAKE_DONE frame to drive the handshake to confirmation https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3145 [-tls] [-transport] [de= sign]=20 - Clarify the state a client stores with a token https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3150 [-transport]=20 - Prohibit IP fragmentation https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3280 [-transport] [design]=20 - Keep RFC6928 informative https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3287 [-recovery]=20 - Fix congestion control permissiveness https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3248 [-recovery]=20 - Add retry integrity tag https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3120 [-tls] [-transport] [de= sign]=20 - GOAWAY means no more https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3338 [-http]=20 Repositories tracked by this digest: ----------------------------------- * https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts --===============6140724701962377437== Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Weekly github digest (QUIC Activity Summary)

Sunday January 19, 2020

Events without label "editorial"

Issues

quicwg/base-drafts (+9/-10/=F0=9F=92=AC46)

9 issues created:

11 issues received 46 new comments:

10 issues closed:

Pull requests

quicwg/base-drafts (+9/-7/=F0=9F=92=AC10)

9 pull requests submitted:

6 pull requests received 10 new comments:

7 pull requests merged:

Repositories tracked by this digest:

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[47.22.54.182]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r6sm19052448qtm.63.2020.01.21.08.43.10 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 21 Jan 2020 08:43:10 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 11:43:03 -0500 From: Dmitri Tikhonov To: IETF QUIC WG Subject: ID-25: why aren't we there yet? Message-ID: <20200121164302.GA5757@ubuntu-dmitri> Mail-Followup-To: IETF QUIC WG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 16:43:18 -0000 Hello, Last set of the QUIC Drafts arrived about two weeks before the Interop event and it resulted in some implementations not being ready [1]. Today, the next Interop is less than two weeks away and yet there are no Drafts. I am concerned that we may do even worse because of time constraints this time around. Can we release the 25 series soon? (Please.) Is there something that's *really* holding it up? Thanks, - Dmitri. 1. https://github.com/quicwg/wg-materials/blob/master/ietf106/minutes.md#hackathon--interop-report From nobody Tue Jan 21 09:05:41 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99F22120804 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 09:05:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=evequefou.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HNHBQL0DHhf0 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 09:05:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from NAM12-DM6-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-dm6nam12on2122.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.243.122]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 71A3F120848 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 09:05:32 -0800 (PST) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=R8TzqLIx0GUK00eekq+E5WgKCEa/9MvBKFj27OeBtIDrK/e1O4vaUtXmALrrtLrTH50aIzTc/Eyc1zJQlUuJe69Z8d/kbyYlGKeTqhpFC3/RXkqr6t3F1RQfuIAWuxbLSBvL+01ZFDkTqA3GRDhFGViet+qp+J6RV7kl2ZPR9JM94UetOp6EOluO4cZmWGTX0v34wb4XhAHBI+jR+u84QsqAErJO/I/HvNZL0W6kzn7v45YYhIDAmJ/QF3f93INblODsnIMtddQU8Upz70Di4/TXP8sAEKJbMyH4DmYK0mlpUfD3mlOvjoOtY1/2bAuejz/leMvTPz4yzDotYyHHUQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=UQbJV52vNNDlkYfQ1t3Avv2YFog9Z2OGSGiSYfiwSTQ=; b=PhQjQL8RG59BAJ1hZ7f1yp6cUuh8+/1g5k6RYJqOBh0dtg1sBAl4LCTDrAtETscbo2Q0T2GlhRftxjzDy3y6WUxHnJP3FN3oKsiW3qH1W9jQxPd1x3POw1fXPZ+YYXy6Y8dUDaJS+t0nfO+lCQxpMwHKKYPPTJcUmqs8acHF4HLVccZVlIJy2V7L0PicLSehd05qqtdtaa2yNDBheKsDnNTwjX+te15R23FDrYk70TJjTlGH9O67enOqsY0nE+O8Aw3HWje9Y1Ulu6yDMCt7gsS5rA5A7Higf8PPCLybaVo0/AD8BJfsXmsuf+s8nK1cYdiBYItGGSy7OVpGzbTRhw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=evequefou.be; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=evequefou.be; dkim=pass header.d=evequefou.be; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=evequefou.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-evequefou-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=UQbJV52vNNDlkYfQ1t3Avv2YFog9Z2OGSGiSYfiwSTQ=; b=mxr4ci1lb57ees9OwXnNDZBpy6JECLnBSAXono9ba+UYSyxJTTSuhGdtVvwwIf4KkUNmD9bVrGz04BJ0XBlJ5Y79OuOoMNbxl8jIP0kGzhfowqJtK9t6JgnVZF+REFzHnOeDd2AxCqD+6gp4Afsap9MeXai1wfMtpiFc9Rb/ZXo= Received: from CH2PR22MB2086.namprd22.prod.outlook.com (20.180.11.136) by CH2PR22MB1800.namprd22.prod.outlook.com (20.180.11.12) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2644.18; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 17:05:29 +0000 Received: from CH2PR22MB2086.namprd22.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::fc4c:de9:3fcd:96dd]) by CH2PR22MB2086.namprd22.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::fc4c:de9:3fcd:96dd%7]) with mapi id 15.20.2644.026; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 17:05:29 +0000 From: Mike Bishop To: Dmitri Tikhonov , IETF QUIC WG Subject: RE: ID-25: why aren't we there yet? Thread-Topic: ID-25: why aren't we there yet? Thread-Index: AQHV0HnrEK3E6WfuPEW0+bB2cJpcLaf1V/qw Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 17:05:29 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20200121164302.GA5757@ubuntu-dmitri> In-Reply-To: <20200121164302.GA5757@ubuntu-dmitri> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=mbishop@evequefou.be; x-originating-ip: [2600:2b00:9327:7d01:439:9527:5292:4177] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 652a1e44-fdc1-4b2c-bafd-08d79e941e62 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: CH2PR22MB1800: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:7219; x-forefront-prvs: 0289B6431E x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(366004)(376002)(346002)(39830400003)(396003)(136003)(189003)(199004)(4744005)(76116006)(66446008)(66946007)(64756008)(66476007)(66556008)(508600001)(2906002)(186003)(55016002)(81166006)(81156014)(9686003)(8936002)(8676002)(86362001)(966005)(52536014)(53546011)(6506007)(110136005)(316002)(5660300002)(7696005)(33656002)(71200400001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:CH2PR22MB1800; H:CH2PR22MB2086.namprd22.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: evequefou.be does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: evequefou.be X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 652a1e44-fdc1-4b2c-bafd-08d79e941e62 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 21 Jan 2020 17:05:29.6567 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 41eaf50b-882d-47eb-8c4c-0b5b76a9da8f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: W/90bb3N+sZz2qzfWOv6doHcWYVLIVKNxsI33IXh6hYntxKrTc2qqcLyexx/gkqkLh/vqFfskBIKMGlcBCvQqg== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CH2PR22MB1800 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 17:05:40 -0000 We wanted to cut new drafts last week, but decided to wait for the open con= sensus call to close first. That closed EOW last week, followed by a holid= ay weekend in the US. Editors' meeting is today; expect -25 drafts shortly= thereafter. -----Original Message----- From: QUIC On Behalf Of Dmitri Tikhonov Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2020 11:43 AM To: IETF QUIC WG Subject: ID-25: why aren't we there yet? Hello, Last set of the QUIC Drafts arrived about two weeks before the Interop even= t and it resulted in some implementations not being ready [1]. Today, the = next Interop is less than two weeks away and yet there are no Drafts. I am= concerned that we may do even worse because of time constraints this time = around. Can we release the 25 series soon? (Please.) Is there something that's *r= eally* holding it up? Thanks, - Dmitri. 1. https://github.com/quicwg/wg-materials/blob/master/ietf106/minutes.md#ha= ckathon--interop-report From nobody Tue Jan 21 17:52:45 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietf.org Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A4831200C3; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 17:52:44 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: quic@ietf.org Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-quic-tls-25.txt X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.116.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quic@ietf.org Message-ID: <157965796422.28803.14831595673103649251@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 17:52:44 -0800 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2020 01:52:44 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the QUIC WG of the IETF. Title : Using TLS to Secure QUIC Authors : Martin Thomson Sean Turner Filename : draft-ietf-quic-tls-25.txt Pages : 51 Date : 2020-01-21 Abstract: This document describes how Transport Layer Security (TLS) is used to secure QUIC. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-quic-tls/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-quic-tls-25 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-quic-tls-25 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-quic-tls-25 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Tue Jan 21 17:53:47 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietf.org Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 595651200C3; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 17:53:40 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: quic@ietf.org Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-quic-http-25.txt X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.116.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quic@ietf.org Message-ID: <157965802032.28819.7728498506245445970@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 17:53:40 -0800 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2020 01:53:40 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the QUIC WG of the IETF. Title : Hypertext Transfer Protocol Version 3 (HTTP/3) Author : Mike Bishop Filename : draft-ietf-quic-http-25.txt Pages : 59 Date : 2020-01-21 Abstract: The QUIC transport protocol has several features that are desirable in a transport for HTTP, such as stream multiplexing, per-stream flow control, and low-latency connection establishment. This document describes a mapping of HTTP semantics over QUIC. This document also identifies HTTP/2 features that are subsumed by QUIC, and describes how HTTP/2 extensions can be ported to HTTP/3. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-quic-http/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-quic-http-25 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-quic-http-25 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-quic-http-25 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Tue Jan 21 17:54:50 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietf.org Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4FBB120013; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 17:54:43 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: quic@ietf.org Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-quic-transport-25.txt X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.116.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quic@ietf.org Message-ID: <157965808380.28827.17911425901265996419@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 17:54:43 -0800 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2020 01:54:44 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the QUIC WG of the IETF. Title : QUIC: A UDP-Based Multiplexed and Secure Transport Authors : Jana Iyengar Martin Thomson Filename : draft-ietf-quic-transport-25.txt Pages : 175 Date : 2020-01-21 Abstract: This document defines the core of the QUIC transport protocol. Accompanying documents describe QUIC's loss detection and congestion control and the use of TLS for key negotiation. Note to Readers Discussion of this draft takes place on the QUIC working group mailing list (quic@ietf.org), which is archived at . Working Group information can be found at ; source code and issues list for this draft can be found at . The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-quic-transport/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-quic-transport-25 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-quic-transport-25 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-quic-transport-25 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Tue Jan 21 18:17:28 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietf.org Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36A431200C3; Tue, 21 Jan 2020 18:17:22 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: quic@ietf.org Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-quic-recovery-25.txt X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.116.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quic@ietf.org Message-ID: <157965944218.28979.2786154779022451392@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2020 18:17:22 -0800 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2020 02:17:22 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the QUIC WG of the IETF. Title : QUIC Loss Detection and Congestion Control Authors : Jana Iyengar Ian Swett Filename : draft-ietf-quic-recovery-25.txt Pages : 41 Date : 2020-01-21 Abstract: This document describes loss detection and congestion control mechanisms for QUIC. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-quic-recovery/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-quic-recovery-25 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-quic-recovery-25 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-quic-recovery-25 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Wed Jan 22 00:05:28 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68750120013 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 00:05:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Qji3m5SYuGZm for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 00:05:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from giant.haxx.se (www.haxx.se [IPv6:2a00:1a28:1200:9::2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6F10D120052 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 00:05:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from giant.haxx.se (mail [127.0.0.1]) by giant.haxx.se (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-4) with ESMTPS id 00M85Jah011479 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 22 Jan 2020 09:05:19 +0100 Received: from localhost (dast@localhost) by giant.haxx.se (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id 00M85GOr011430; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 09:05:17 +0100 X-Authentication-Warning: giant.haxx.se: dast owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2020 09:05:15 +0100 (CET) From: Daniel Stenberg X-X-Sender: dast@giant.haxx.se To: Lucas Pardue cc: QUIC WG , HTTP Working Group Subject: Re: HTTP Alternative Services Best Practices? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (DEB 67 2015-01-07) X-fromdanielhimself: yes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2020 08:05:26 -0000 On Tue, 17 Dec 2019, Daniel Stenberg wrote: Me and Lucas ran into a few other "interesting" alt-svc related details: The Alt-Used header is specified to only include host + port. Meaning, that if we switch from h1/h2 to to h3 (on the same host and port) we'd specify an identical host + port and it can't be used for loop detection etc. Further, the Alt-Used header says the port number is optional. But what does it mean when you don't specify the port number? We don't provide a scheme or alpn to aid. It seems at least Firefox thinks no port implies port 443. We found a service that didn't like when curl *includes* port 443 in that header when going from h2 port 443 to h3 port 443... -- / daniel.haxx.se From nobody Wed Jan 22 05:54:39 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34EA11200E9; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 05:54:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_FONT_LOW_CONTRAST=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with 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Version Notification for draft-kuehlewind-quic-proxy-discovery-00.txt To: Mirja Kuehlewind Cc: Patrick McManus , "masque@ietf.org" , "quic@ietf.org" , Zaheduzzaman Sarker , "Su, Chi-Jiun" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f235f3059cbd677c" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2020 16:56:35 -0000 --000000000000f235f3059cbd677c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey Mirja, So it turns out that me skim reading the draft results in misunderstanding its intent. I think I got it into my head that this document was a survey of general proxy discovery protocols, not a set of specific proposals for QUIC proxies. With my renewed understanding, I agree that the document shouldn't recommend the use of WPAD. Maybe there is an opportunity to discuss the more broad considerations, such as authentication, to make when deploying, advertising and selecting a QUIC proxy. But maybe that is covered in text elsewhere. Taking a deeper look at the proposals, I wonder how some of the presented option play with the ALPN and SNI in the QUIC handshake. For instance, in the DHCP example, a client might discover that there is a QUIC proxy but not know its name or application layer protocol and hence could have a hard time setting up the QUIC connection. And on this note I wonder if we need to delineate between what might be a general purpose "QUIC transport proxy" and an "Application-on-QUIC proxy". For example, with HTTPS proxies today it is possible for them to use Alt-Service to advertise the availability of HTTP/3. Cheers Lucas On Wed, Jan 22, 2020 at 1:54 PM Mirja Kuehlewind < mirja.kuehlewind@ericsson.com> wrote: > Hi Partick, hi Lucus, hi all, > > > > I=E2=80=99m currently updating the discovery draft and therefore looking = at this > email thread. > > > > So looking at WPAD, it also uses DHCP and/or DNS to get a config file. In > the draft we mentioned also the use of Provisioning Domains (PvDs) to get > information about local configuration. This seems to be the more > appropriate and soon to be standardized alternative, so I don=E2=80=99t t= hink > mentioning WPAD will add much. Lucas? > > > > Mentioning WPAD could maybe lead to a discussion about who this > information can be access by an application/browser (if needed because it > could also be the OS that handles the proxying transparently for the app)= , > however, this seems a bit out of scope for this document and probably is > mostly covered by taps for PvDs. > > > > Patrick, you said below that =E2=80=9Cseries of CONNECT tunnels to the pr= oxy are > giving up the end to end security of transport features that QUIC=E2=80= =9C. In > the setup we have in mind for use with MASQUE, we never touch the encrypt= ed > QUIC end-to-end connection and just forward those packets. Other than for > HTTP/TCP proxies, the idea is to always have an outer QUIC connection > between the client and the proxy and an inner QUIC connection between the > client and the server. So I think if you only look for a forwarding servi= ce > (+ address translation/anonymization), it=E2=80=99s actually okay to rely= on > potentially unauthenticated local discovery as you basically only have to > trust the proxy as much as you trust any router on the path. However, giv= en > there is a QUIC connection between the client and the server which includ= es > authentication, you may even be able to authenticate a known proxy even i= f > the discovery was not authenticated. > > > > Mirja > > > > > > > > *From: *Masque on behalf of Patrick McManus < > mcmanus@ducksong.com> > *Date: *Tuesday, 5. November 2019 at 22:37 > *To: *"Su, Chi-Jiun" > *Cc: *"masque@ietf.org" , "quic@ietf.org" , > Mirja Kuehlewind , Zaheduzzaman Sarker < > zaheduzzaman.sarker@ericsson.com>, Lucas Pardue < > lucaspardue.24.7@gmail.com> > *Subject: *Re: [Masque] FW: New Version Notification for > draft-kuehlewind-quic-proxy-discovery-00.txt > > > > wpad is mostly an anti-pattern these days for important reasons - there i= s > no authentication. When there was less https it was chronically responsib= le > for people getting owned. > > > > If the client is explicitly using a proxy it must have a reason to use an= d > trust a particular one (or class of one). quic of course provides > authentication to the peer and in the normal http way of things this auth > is linked to the origin which is rooted in some kind of out of band > information (i.e. the url obtained from a secure source such as an input > box, a bookmark, the command line, or transitively by finding the url > embedded in a resource found in those ways). unsecured broadcast mechanis= ms > like dhcp on (mostly) unauthenticated local networks don't satisfy that > which is why proxy config is generally viewed as an end host configuratio= n > requirement that can't be autodiscovered. (often done right via enterpris= e > config). > > > > even scenarios that only envision a series of CONNECT tunnels to the prox= y > are giving up the end to end security of transport features that QUIC has > added and so I would think use of a untrusted proxy (i.e. one not rooted = in > a trust anchor in some meaningful way) should be discouraged. > > > > On Mon, Nov 4, 2019 at 3:35 PM Su, Chi-Jiun > wrote: > > Here are some more related to wpd for http: > > > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-chow-httpbis-proxy-discovery-00 > > > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nottingham-web-proxy-desc-01 > > > > > > > > *From:* Masque *On Behalf Of *Lucas Pardue > *Sent:* Monday, November 4, 2019 12:16 PM > *To:* Mirja Kuehlewind > > *Cc:* quic@ietf.org; Zaheduzzaman Sarker ; > masque@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Masque] FW: New Version Notification for > draft-kuehlewind-quic-proxy-discovery-00.txt > > > > *CAUTION:* This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not > click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know > the content is safe. > > I'm not an expert in either WPAD [1] or PAC [2], but I am an expert in > feeling their pain as a user on Windows. Part of their pain comes from la= ck > of formal standardization, resulting in some word-of-mouth approaches to > problem solving, especially how they work (or don't) with the > standardised approaches such as DHCP. > > > > In looking this up, I did discover draft-ietf-wrec-wpad-01, a > 20 I-D fo= r > WPAD [3], wow! > > > > [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_Proxy_Auto-Discovery_Protocol > > > [2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxy_auto-config > > > [3] - https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-wrec-wpad-01 > > > > > On Mon, Nov 4, 2019 at 5:09 PM Mirja Kuehlewind < > mirja.kuehlewind@ericsson.com> wrote: > > Hi Lucas, > > > > no, we didn=E2=80=99t consider this yet but only because we were not real= ly aware > of that. Do you have a pointer? Or send a PR =F0=9F=98=8A > > > > https://github.com/mirjak/draft-kuehlewind-quic-proxy-discovery > > > > > Mirja > > > > > > *From: *Lucas Pardue > > *Date: *Monday, 4. November 2019 at 18:06 > *To: *Mirja Kuehlewind > > *Cc: *"quic@ietf.org" , "masque@ietf.org" , > Zaheduzzaman Sarker > *Subject: *Re: [Masque] FW: New Version Notification for > draft-kuehlewind-quic-proxy-discovery-00.txt > > > > Thanks for sharing this. > > > > I wonder if you considered WPAD (Web Proxy Autodiscovery) or PAC (Proxy > auto-config)? Although targetted at the application layer, it might help = to > comment on how those forms of discovery would relate to the methods > outlined in your draft. > > > > Cheers, > > Lucas > > > > On Mon, Nov 4, 2019 at 4:58 PM Mirja Kuehlewind 40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > Hi all, > > we submitted a new draft that lists discovery mechanisms for QUIC-based > proxies (see below). This is one piece of work that is needed for most of > the use cases in draft-kuehlewind-quic-substrate. > > Let me know if you have any questions or comments! > > Mirja > > > On 04.11.19, 17:53, "internet-drafts@ietf.org" > wrote: > > > A new version of I-D, draft-kuehlewind-quic-proxy-discovery-00.txt > has been successfully submitted by Mirja Kuehlewind and posted to the > IETF repository. > > Name: draft-kuehlewind-quic-proxy-discovery > Revision: 00 > Title: Discovery Mechanism for QUIC-based, > Non-transparent Proxy Services > Document date: 2019-11-04 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 11 > URL: > https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-kuehlewind-quic-proxy-discover= y-00.txt > > Status: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kuehlewind-quic-proxy-discovery/ > > Htmlized: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kuehlewind-quic-proxy-discovery-00 > > Htmlized: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-kuehlewind-quic-proxy-discove= ry > > > > Abstract: > Often an intermediate instance (such as a proxy server) is used to > connect to a web server or a communicating peer if a direct end-to= - > end IP connectivity is not possible or the proxy can provide a > support service like, e.g., address anonymisation. To use a non- > transparent proxy a client explicitly connects to it and requests > forwarding to the final target server. The client either knows th= e > proxy address as preconfigured in the application or can dynamical= ly > learn about available proxy services. This document describes > different discovery mechanisms for non-transparent proxies that ar= e > either located in the local network, e.g. home or enterprise > network, > in the access network, or somewhere else on the Internet usually > close to the target server or even in the same network as the targ= et > server. > > This document assumes that the non-transparent proxy server is > connected via QUIC and discusses potential discovery mechanisms fo= r > such a QUIC-based, non-transparent proxy. > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org > > . > > The IETF Secretariat > > > > -- > Masque mailing list > Masque@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/masque > > > -- > Masque mailing list > Masque@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/masque > > --000000000000f235f3059cbd677c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hey Mirja,

So it turns out t= hat me skim reading the draft results in misunderstanding its intent. I thi= nk I got it into my head that this document was a survey of general proxy d= iscovery protocols, not a set of specific proposals for QUIC proxies. With = my renewed understanding, I agree that the document shouldn't recommend= the use of WPAD. Maybe there is an opportunity to discuss the more broad c= onsiderations, such as authentication, to make when deploying, advertising = and selecting a QUIC proxy. But maybe that is covered in text elsewhere.

Taking a deeper look at the proposals, I wonder how = some of the presented option play with the ALPN and SNI in the QUIC handsha= ke. For instance, in the DHCP example, a client might discover that there i= s a QUIC proxy but not know its name or application layer protocol and henc= e could have a hard time setting up the QUIC connection.

And on this note I wonder if we need to delineate between what might= be a general purpose "QUIC transport proxy" and an "Applica= tion-on-QUIC proxy". For example, with HTTPS proxies today it is possi= ble for them to use Alt-Service to advertise the availability of HTTP/3.

Cheers
Lucas

On Wed, Jan 22, 2020= at 1:54 PM Mirja Kuehlewind <mirja.kuehlewind@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hi Partick, hi Lucus, hi all,

=C2=A0

I=E2=80=99m currently updating = the discovery draft and therefore looking at this email thread.

=C2=A0

So looking at WPAD, it also use= s DHCP and/or DNS to get a config file. In the draft we mentioned also the = use of Provisioning Domains (PvDs) to get information about local configura= tion. This seems to be the more appropriate and soon to be standardized alternat= ive, so I don=E2=80=99t think mentioning WPAD will add much. Lucas?<= u>

=C2=A0

Mentioning WPAD could maybe lea= d to a discussion about who this information can be access by an applicatio= n/browser (if needed because it could also be the OS that handles the proxy= ing transparently for the app), however, this seems a bit out of scope for thi= s document and probably is mostly covered by taps for PvDs.

=C2=A0

Patrick, you said below that = =E2=80=9Cseries of CONNECT tunnels to the proxy are giving up the en= d to end security of transport features that QUIC=E2= =80=9C. In the setup we have in mind for use with MASQUE, we never touch the encrypted QUIC end-to= -end connection and just forward those packets. Other than for HTTP/TCP pro= xies, the idea is to always have an outer QUIC connection between the clien= t and the proxy and an inner QUIC connection between the client and the server. So I think if you only look = for a forwarding service (+ address translation/anonymization), it=E2=80=99= s actually okay to rely on potentially unauthenticated local discovery as y= ou basically only have to trust the proxy as much as you trust any router on the path. However, given there is a QUI= C connection between the client and the server which includes authenticatio= n, you may even be able to authenticate a known proxy even if the discovery= was not authenticated.

=C2=A0

Mirja

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Masque <masque-bounces@ietf.org<= /a>> on behalf of Patrick McManus <mcmanus@ducksong.com>
Date: Tuesday, 5. November 2019 at 22:37
To: "Su, Chi-Jiun" <Chi-Jiun.Su@hughes.com>
Cc: "masqu= e@ietf.org" <masque@ietf.org>, "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>, Mirja Kuehlewind <mirja.kuehlewind@ericss= on.com>, Zaheduzzaman Sarker <zaheduzzaman.sarker@ericsson.com>= , Lucas Pardue <lucaspardue.24.7@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Masque] FW: New Version Notification for draft-kuehlew= ind-quic-proxy-discovery-00.txt

=C2=A0

wpad is mostly an anti-pa= ttern these days for important reasons - there is no authentication. When t= here was less https it was chronically responsible for people getting owned= .

=C2=A0

If the client is explicit= ly using a proxy it must have a reason to use and trust a particular one (o= r class of one). quic of course provides authentication to the peer and in = the normal http way of things this auth is linked to the origin which is rooted in some kind of out of band i= nformation (i.e. the url obtained from a secure source such as an input box= , a bookmark, the command line, or transitively by finding the url embedded= in a resource found in those ways). unsecured broadcast mechanisms like dhcp on (mostly) unauthenticated local= networks don't satisfy that which is why proxy config is generally vie= wed as an end host configuration requirement that can't be autodiscover= ed. (often done right via enterprise config).

=C2=A0

even scenarios that only = envision a series of CONNECT tunnels to the proxy are giving up the end to = end security of transport features that QUIC has added and so I would think= use of a untrusted proxy (i.e. one not rooted in a trust anchor in some meaningful way) should be discouraged= .

=C2=A0

On Mon, Nov 4, 2019 at 3:= 35 PM Su, Chi-Jiun <Chi-Jiun.Su@hughes.com> wrote:

Here are some more related to wpd for http:<= /u>

=C2=A0

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft= -chow-httpbis-proxy-discovery-00

=C2=A0

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-no= ttingham-web-proxy-desc-01

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: Masque <masque-bounces@i= etf.org> On Behalf Of Lucas Pardue
Sent: Monday, November 4, 2019 12:16 PM
To: Mirja Kuehlewind <mirja.kuehlewind@ericsson.com>
Cc: quic@ietf.org= ; Zaheduzzaman Sarker <zaheduzzaman.sarker@ericsson.com>; masque@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Masque] FW: New Version Notification for draft-kuehlew= ind-quic-proxy-discovery-00.txt

=C2=A0

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organiza= tion. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.

I'm not an expert in either = WPAD [1] or PAC [2], but I am an expert in feeling their pain as a user on = Windows. Part of their pain comes from lack of formal standardization, resu= lting in some word-of-mouth approaches to problem solving, especially how they work (or = don't) with the standardised approaches such as DHCP.

=C2=A0

In looking this up, I did discover draft-ietf-wrec-wpa= d-01, a > 20 I-D for WPAD [3], wow!

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

On Mon, Nov 4, 2019 at 5:09 PM Mirja Kuehlewind <mirja.kueh= lewind@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hi Lucas,

=C2=A0

no, we didn=E2=80=99t consider this yet but only becau= se we were not really aware of that. Do you have a pointer? Or send a PR =F0=9F=98=8A

=C2=A0

https://github.com/mirjak/draft-kuehle= wind-quic-proxy-discovery

=C2=A0

Mirja

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: = Lucas Pardue <lucaspardue.24= ..7@gmail.com>
Date: Monday, 4. November 2019 at 18:06
To: Mirja Kuehlewind <mirja.kuehlewind@ericsson.com>
Cc: "quic@ie= tf.org" <qui= c@ietf.org>, "masque@ietf.org" <masque@ietf.org>, Zaheduzzaman Sarker <zaheduzzaman.sarker@ericsson.com>
Subject: Re: [Masque] FW: New Version Notification for draft-kuehlew= ind-quic-proxy-discovery-00.txt

=C2=A0

Thanks for sharing this.

=C2=A0

I wonder if you considered WPAD (Web Proxy Autodiscovery)= or PAC (Proxy auto-config)? Although targetted at the application layer, i= t might help to comment on how those forms of discovery would relate to the= methods outlined in your draft.<= /span>

=C2=A0

Cheers,<= /p>

Lucas

=C2=A0

On Mon, Nov 4, 2019 at 4:58 PM Mirja Kuehlewind <mirja= ..kuehlewind=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

Hi all,

we submitted a new draft that lists discovery mechanisms for QUIC-based pro= xies (see below). This is one piece of work that is needed for most of the = use cases in draft-kuehlewind-quic-substrate.

Let me know if you have any questions or comments!

Mirja


On 04.11.19, 17:53, "internet-drafts@ietf.org" <internet-drafts@ietf.org> wro= te:


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 A new version of I-D, draft-kuehlewind-quic-proxy-discovery-0= 0.txt
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 has been successfully submitted by Mirja Kuehlewind and poste= d to the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 IETF repository.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0d= raft-kuehlewind-quic-proxy-discovery
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A000
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Discov= ery Mechanism for QUIC-based, Non-transparent Proxy Services
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Document date:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 2019-11-04
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Indivi= dual Submission
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 11
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-kuehlewind-quic-proxy-discovery-= 00.txt
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kuehlewind-quic-proxy-discove= ry/
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https= ://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-kuehlewind-quic-proxy-discovery-00
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-kuehlewind-quic-proxy-disco= very


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Abstract:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Often an intermediate instance (such as a proxy = server) is used to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0connect to a web server or a communicating peer = if a direct end-to-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0end IP connectivity is not possible or the proxy= can provide a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0support service like, e.g., address anonymisatio= n.=C2=A0 To use a non-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0transparent proxy a client explicitly connects t= o it and requests
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0forwarding to the final target server.=C2=A0 The= client either knows the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0proxy address as preconfigured in the applicatio= n or can dynamically
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0learn about available proxy services.=C2=A0 This= document describes
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0different discovery mechanisms for non-transpare= nt proxies that are
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0either located in the local network, e.g. home o= r enterprise network,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0in the access network, or somewhere else on the = Internet usually
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0close to the target server or even in the same n= etwork as the target
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0server.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This document assumes that the non-transparent p= roxy server is
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0connected via QUIC and discusses potential disco= very mechanisms for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0such a QUIC-based, non-transparent proxy.




=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the tim= e of submission
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 The IETF Secretariat



--
Masque mailing list
Masque@ietf.org ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/masque<= u>

--
Masque mailing list
Masque@ietf.org = https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/masque

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X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 17:25:20 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the QUIC WG of the IETF. Title : QPACK: Header Compression for HTTP/3 Authors : Charles 'Buck' Krasic Mike Bishop Alan Frindell Filename : draft-ietf-quic-qpack-12.txt Pages : 37 Date : 2020-01-21 Abstract: This specification defines QPACK, a compression format for efficiently representing HTTP header fields, to be used in HTTP/3. This is a variation of HPACK header compression that seeks to reduce head-of-line blocking. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-quic-qpack/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-quic-qpack-12 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-quic-qpack-12 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-quic-qpack-12 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Thu Jan 23 13:51:15 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1E1812011C for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 13:51:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AvWbJmEbXkEy for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 13:51:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x235.google.com (mail-lj1-x235.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D47F4120077 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 13:51:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x235.google.com with SMTP id z22so45998ljg.1 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 13:51:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=+R43V+GQTlxQImPWIXaAGMEN1wPC2fyFr7P7B17/EjI=; b=fhIOt0mi1gj8dVgIVlXpqdPYm4fnVsmC09qIjCJ1Z31LkYmATk1I4eeaFneAtCllKm dm1ILMLmtN+HeKk1h0NMwO2pZTzO076vvgY+XB1tRscO9qIJjgx4wpznK9M2PAKFJiuC NuZipLtYYegQhR7L1uvf83MIyCu9xgascN28LH+lIG1F7CHPGRW1ZsKQSj9uSrzQdZ6F nW/3CjG1UvMqJxXYebFaDkKmnrfAnmPC5k2SyLExKclluUyia/w7/2P5tqvUVy40CiK3 Z55eQHloflEB09LMX4IJY//X7K5GbLPA5nMaMEcer8Pir0GsIhpy7ljZ4kZKKGWnDwmI mLLQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=+R43V+GQTlxQImPWIXaAGMEN1wPC2fyFr7P7B17/EjI=; b=YmqVE9wGtbOCQcgX5ypjLL549H6INwbN28/iBQ0Ywg8a8Pl13zL0wHj0el+sZOQkN9 ENtpUPpG6lyt1kUAhBxunrBz+ciKFE7V/ZXI04AKqNYhstAMNK69G2f9++5iQsiTz6jV 9MeqP3aKx2UlqE5FdzLSVFpT94B+hZPFZSj1XkdAUo56P93VQ7F9RMgfvgK4BOshFFD1 /RFNJgIGCDX3Kr7ucCwidUOzB80CkscYeAHKFCIIgokKZ46Tmk2vKirOFsxsXN5ECa4d rblB0K+8lHI+F9rfS6Kgdf86nLxzkc+mYr5PP8FCmsm/eex+iq33kuSsQflgCXVyq3DQ /j8A== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAV+UL3rC/54OkTikNYIEMiyYReJz0KA/3PSaieNo7iXJeOHxJtM kKWCFxtuDG+4okANjrjmR3wjgpQzSsXKCn3j/rvK2b70 X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxI0OtYSF/2qX7iIQ52NzTkmNuReO6g+lZX0zyeWrpx9SsIsBID6AL748O14Ig/lWwxS5swU5MpDme4QvuSoxY= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9ad1:: with SMTP id p17mr299732ljj.26.1579816269984; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 13:51:09 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Jana Iyengar Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 13:50:59 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Proposed extension for delayed acknowledgments To: QUIC WG Cc: Ian Swett Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009537dd059cd5a36c" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 21:51:14 -0000 --0000000000009537dd059cd5a36c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi all, Ian and I have proposed an extension to enable sender-side control of acknowledgement frequency: draft-iyengar-quic-delayed-ack-00 . The problem this extension solves was originally discussed in #1978 , where we agreed that this might be best done in an extension. The desire to reduce the frequency of acknowledgements was more recently brought up and discussed in #3304 , where it seemed clear that there was interest in working on this now. This proposed extension is a result. This is an individual draft. Please feel free to use the following github repo, which is NOT the working group's repo, for filing issues and discussion pertaining to the draft: https://github.com/janaiyengar/ack-frequency - jana --0000000000009537dd059cd5a36c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi all,

Ian and I have proposed an exte= nsion to enable sender-side control of acknowledgement frequency:=C2=A0dr= aft-iyengar-quic-delayed-ack-00.=C2=A0

The pro= blem this extension solves was originally discussed in #1978, where we agreed that t= his might be best done in an extension. The desire to reduce the frequency = of acknowledgements was more recently brought up and discussed in=C2=A0#3304, where = it seemed clear that there was interest in working on this now. This propos= ed extension is a result.

This is an individual dr= aft. Please feel free to use the following github repo, which is NOT the wo= rking group's repo, for filing issues and discussion pertaining to the = draft:=C2=A0https:= //github.com/janaiyengar/ack-frequency

- jana<= /div>
--0000000000009537dd059cd5a36c-- From nobody Thu Jan 23 13:59:34 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 784D012011C for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 13:59:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -17.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-17.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jRZLywe2l8XP for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 13:59:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm1-x32f.google.com (mail-wm1-x32f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 99101120077 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 13:59:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm1-x32f.google.com with SMTP id t14so4196141wmi.5 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 13:59:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=IJeYrkh6u2T7MWCNv8uwxqPMAEPPZS5SFLTXUNFdPFc=; b=L1tVcK8Y7ofBsV7cR28Z7RiUx1voAMbagXUdH/WsDcHAPx4KdCQ04Sse1OTbabcXQU zVjRT4nPVRdlqRT5PDQD9WlDryYyl9BvPERxcorCEdFdBMepM1X3ODBWa99MjbFIUef/ 3g/dFo+fQ99R+rkaNQOANSz4vOBNu8eJYebbTdzLzs0OFZQi066Pw/6IMUrgjiUC8FWy c6aPROttzGdzUHrhlfJvlPtrIWzkC+5Dert+SIuw0HJVXdNsFKHmEvG5mI4lplKswLL5 V+sUR9fTrmtm4N8cL3GsoMnUtH11OdxmhkR2DlShL6qtF9Q8ML8582d9qsh5ODPjaEIQ 9ZqQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=IJeYrkh6u2T7MWCNv8uwxqPMAEPPZS5SFLTXUNFdPFc=; b=CAxTErkpgZBhXTXMf6jnuiYUwMof318ZyWieja8OwJZWVgj/WpGo/DeDsyDx//GM4K vUogbR+fB6gmBSmjPZBHAhzAVQtPxNCAOVvv3soC5aXBpI4dUPF1cqlv73lUCqag3abv 00Hll7NcaK+ghk4yniBvFQi8QW7/+A7joxfhApdWEENfXwJ96PQr5Yz1rgBH/qFa9mgM O8nH5hsKMrjHYM2uw0KRXy/SBAXyrsBDZefQpQb1A4idpexrHktwayI2PW7airCoENLZ umf/YpRjk++NREAaUf8O/1kG5GeDxT2ATGkW6KmXB/BfkuCyp83IrBrHep0Yv31ClWv1 xbtQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAW+OEKUNt26nygfKe9fgmjzpPotOVg9q+AJ4sS5JmOr2p7+a1av to1v/dF/m5mMVkHwTVfydtUYd1dr27QUi2wqnz2BcLEK X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqy/eKw4tga8gMYpgWZMYBdd9sd8sbg8jA+Lp2SoOa1KyC77eO5W/YdDIv2aK75ta3G1QHFrJyu1wP9BoR7vAkM= X-Received: by 2002:a7b:c392:: with SMTP id s18mr32072wmj.169.1579816767697; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 13:59:27 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Ian Swett Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 16:59:15 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Proposed extension for delayed acknowledgments To: Jana Iyengar Cc: QUIC WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000403d06059cd5c1fd" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 21:59:33 -0000 --000000000000403d06059cd5c1fd Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Thanks Jana! This draft was motivated both by the fact Chrome(and Cronet) clients already have a variation on this enabled(ack every 10 packets or 1/4 min_rtt), and it has shown huge(ie: 2x+) improvements in client CPU, particularly on mobile clients. Other clients have had similar experiences. Additionally, testing on satellite networks has shown this is a critical performance improvement, because these networks are commonly highly asymmetric and they can't add proxies which terminate transport(ie: TCP) separately from crypto for QUIC. Additionally, by specifying the update_max_ack_delay field in microseconds, this is a potential fix for Issue #3363 (max_ack_delay should be in us, not ms). I'm very excited about this extension and our team intends to implement it relatively soon in Chrome and Google servers when an IETF QUIC draft is enabled. Ian On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 4:51 PM Jana Iyengar wrote: > Hi all, > > Ian and I have proposed an extension to enable sender-side control of > acknowledgement frequency: draft-iyengar-quic-delayed-ack-00 > . > > The problem this extension solves was originally discussed in #1978 > , where we agreed that > this might be best done in an extension. The desire to reduce the frequency > of acknowledgements was more recently brought up and discussed in #3304 > , where it seemed > clear that there was interest in working on this now. This proposed > extension is a result. > > This is an individual draft. Please feel free to use the following github > repo, which is NOT the working group's repo, for filing issues and > discussion pertaining to the draft: > https://github.com/janaiyengar/ack-frequency > > - jana > --000000000000403d06059cd5c1fd Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks Jana!

This draft was motivated b= oth by the fact Chrome(and Cronet) clients already=C2=A0have a variation on= this enabled(ack every 10 packets or 1/4 min_rtt), and it has shown huge(i= e: 2x+) improvements in client CPU, particularly on mobile clients.=C2=A0 O= ther clients have=C2=A0had similar experiences.

Ad= ditionally, testing on satellite networks has shown this is a critical perf= ormance improvement, because these networks are commonly highly asymmetric= =C2=A0and they can't add proxies which terminate transport(ie: TCP) sep= arately from crypto for QUIC.

Additionally, by spe= cifying the update_max_ack_delay field in microseconds, this is a potential= fix for Issue #3363(max_ack_delay should be in us, not ms).

I'm very excited about this extension and our=C2=A0team intends to im= plement it relatively soon in Chrome and Google servers when an IETF QUIC d= raft is enabled.

Ian

On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at = 4:51 PM Jana Iyengar <jri.ietf@gma= il.com> wrote:
Hi all,

Ian and I have proposed a= n extension to enable sender-side control of acknowledgement frequency:=C2= =A0draft-iyengar-quic-delayed-ack-00.=C2=A0

The problem this extension solves was originally discusse= d in #1978, where we agreed that this might be best done in an e= xtension. The desire to reduce the frequency of acknowledgements was more r= ecently brought up and discussed in=C2=A0#3304, where it seemed cl= ear that there was interest in working on this now. This proposed extension= is a result.

This is an individual draft. Please = feel free to use the following github repo, which is NOT the working group&= #39;s repo, for filing issues and discussion pertaining to the draft:=C2=A0= = https://github.com/janaiyengar/ack-frequency

-= jana
--000000000000403d06059cd5c1fd-- From nobody Thu Jan 23 14:25:20 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFFFD1200E9 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 14:25:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FBqWyfRTTq8S for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 14:25:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ua1-x936.google.com (mail-ua1-x936.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::936]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D4C53120077 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 14:25:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ua1-x936.google.com with SMTP id y3so105904uae.3 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 14:25:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=bly6eVAeKY6/lOfxJ1XX6wALhDZRyFDQBgYphMDOOvE=; b=qoY/hZoohYZArVanr/CEgaXcSwUeFGXRlj6mg4fKvwEJ286d8aZUJagk4vOLvQJCtu D9mllmIUI+/JKqI205cfnJs0XRkaCTZMjue9fcQyJ9AQQRTJPt2fNlXsHYfeqXuHtL9Q 0lEdyY2hkYgV8aIl8gU0dnOToUhS8h5tdi1vTltF4aE51lCZyAXqyg4nuPwuZqVcn7fS swlyU3M88GuYDzPNqxtrnjWV5cUaV+diJiy5m1sqOA2PG4eq9DRpcXPssTEKZIVUDOT+ zTcGDHDeyB85nqDAi658m+bukyc2jkFSUIvOPUD+pPOWxoTz/rDAPdjovqKPT8UMqqOy NJ6Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=bly6eVAeKY6/lOfxJ1XX6wALhDZRyFDQBgYphMDOOvE=; b=icQctKv5oStuBZJWqtNJS5SbYvwzoXIW3rtMvXYrD4vrcjjIeRWypAdAAlB/pmAmic yB6j3cwVwvIyZnWh3nHGMtUD8bnh2zBFEpXOm7I6ie7U/XfZJyiXky1E3G6ZjaE9/Nt6 +tNofYIjMbkwwmsEckq90M+vOHczu5CgFNSBSZPFjhPnhVHxhXNeem6DzA+HZ39Ezcfy mTAOXz82HLfIvKtAVATHor8IcsfA2zbnhyY9CR3a91zLo12JMaM4V/JPKiYXe+ju3jgP xwTrRsEy6QHVY3YcWE5xzvrMPU3p7Wl7izz4tK6ppHPjGaa/i+MEtLLVpSIAsVwX54Rn LbPw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAV/ktvUvjmebqfCMfnzqHArrNm3Et+5He+IMJ4pmowCubtWto+R M09zr8AEedddeh9drkLYzWExHDQNkaYB6hRFSsU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqw7XAsQA4am4W7SUEUgf/pEE+nKMYy2IhpAotdV+1cNK6Xv/HLKIOfnO/Ml24Ar/2vMbtNytxvKqrA+YxvUWHI= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:e16:: with SMTP id g22mr84306uak.129.1579818316747; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 14:25:16 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Matt Joras Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 14:25:05 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Proposed extension for delayed acknowledgments To: Ian Swett Cc: Jana Iyengar , QUIC WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009457ee059cd61d8b" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 22:25:20 -0000 --0000000000009457ee059cd61d8b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Thank you Jana and Ian for doing this! As I noted on #3304, we have also observed this sort of change is critical to reducing client-originated ACK traffic for typical Internet content, and for CPU performance of both client and server. Noting here that I have opened an issue (#17 ) for the following: given that we have a basic heuristic that seems to work pretty well for multiple deployments (default behavior for first 100 packets, packet tolerance of 10 after), do we want to make that recommendation explicit in the extension itself? Matt Joras On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 1:59 PM Ian Swett wrote: > Thanks Jana! > > This draft was motivated both by the fact Chrome(and Cronet) clients > already have a variation on this enabled(ack every 10 packets or 1/4 > min_rtt), and it has shown huge(ie: 2x+) improvements in client CPU, > particularly on mobile clients. Other clients have had similar experiences. > > Additionally, testing on satellite networks has shown this is a critical > performance improvement, because these networks are commonly highly > asymmetric and they can't add proxies which terminate transport(ie: TCP) > separately from crypto for QUIC. > > Additionally, by specifying the update_max_ack_delay field in > microseconds, this is a potential fix for Issue #3363 > (max_ack_delay should > be in us, not ms). > > I'm very excited about this extension and our team intends to implement it > relatively soon in Chrome and Google servers when an IETF QUIC draft is > enabled. > > Ian > > On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 4:51 PM Jana Iyengar wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> Ian and I have proposed an extension to enable sender-side control of >> acknowledgement frequency: draft-iyengar-quic-delayed-ack-00 >> . >> >> The problem this extension solves was originally discussed in #1978 >> , where we agreed >> that this might be best done in an extension. The desire to reduce the >> frequency of acknowledgements was more recently brought up and discussed in >> #3304 , where it >> seemed clear that there was interest in working on this now. This proposed >> extension is a result. >> >> This is an individual draft. Please feel free to use the following github >> repo, which is NOT the working group's repo, for filing issues and >> discussion pertaining to the draft: >> https://github.com/janaiyengar/ack-frequency >> >> - jana >> > --0000000000009457ee059cd61d8b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thank you Jana and Ian for doing this!

As I no= ted on #3304, we have also observed this sort of change is critical to redu= cing client-originated ACK traffic for typical Internet content, and for CP= U performance of both client and server. Noting here that I have opened an = issue (#= 17) for the following: given that we have a basic heuristic that seems = to work pretty well for multiple deployments (default behavior for first 10= 0 packets, packet tolerance of 10 after), do we want to make that recommend= ation explicit in the extension itself?

Matt Joras

On T= hu, Jan 23, 2020 at 1:59 PM Ian Swett <ianswett=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
Thanks= Jana!

This draft was motivated both by the fact Chrome(= and Cronet) clients already=C2=A0have a variation on this enabled(ack every= 10 packets or 1/4 min_rtt), and it has shown huge(ie: 2x+) improvements in= client CPU, particularly on mobile clients.=C2=A0 Other clients have=C2=A0= had similar experiences.

Additionally, testing on = satellite networks has shown this is a critical performance improvement, be= cause these networks are commonly highly asymmetric=C2=A0and they can't= add proxies which terminate transport(ie: TCP) separately from crypto for = QUIC.

Additionally, by specifying the update_max_a= ck_delay field in microseconds, this is a potential fix for Issue #3= 363(max_ack_delay should be in us, not ms).

I&= #39;m very excited about this extension and our=C2=A0team intends to implem= ent it relatively soon in Chrome and Google servers when an IETF QUIC draft= is enabled.

Ian

On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 4:51= PM Jana Iyengar <jri.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi all,

Ian and I h= ave proposed an extension to enable sender-side control of acknowledgement = frequency:=C2=A0draft-iyengar-quic-delayed-ack-00.= =C2=A0

The problem this extension solves was origi= nally discussed in #1978, where we agreed that this might be best = done in an extension. The desire to reduce the frequency of acknowledgement= s was more recently brought up and discussed in=C2=A0#3304, where = it seemed clear that there was interest in working on this now. This propos= ed extension is a result.

This is an individual dr= aft. Please feel free to use the following github repo, which is NOT the wo= rking group's repo, for filing issues and discussion pertaining to the = draft:=C2=A0https://github.com/janaiyengar/ack-frequency

=
- jana
--0000000000009457ee059cd61d8b-- From nobody Thu Jan 23 15:53:46 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B85F120041 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 15:53:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wG_W5GxkAevg for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 15:53:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx43-out1.antispamcloud.com (mx43-out1.antispamcloud.com [138.201.61.189]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B127F120019 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 15:53:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from xse54.mail2web.com ([66.113.196.54] helo=xse.mail2web.com) by mx3.antispamcloud.com with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1iumI6-00048G-L1 for quic@ietf.org; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 00:53:39 +0100 Received: from xsmtp21.mail2web.com (unknown [10.100.68.60]) by xse.mail2web.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 483fHM4xcWz3JVv for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 15:53:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.5.2.16] (helo=xmail06.myhosting.com) by xsmtp21.mail2web.com with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1iumI3-0006L0-I3 for quic@ietf.org; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 15:53:35 -0800 Received: (qmail 9088 invoked from network); 23 Jan 2020 23:53:35 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.105]) (Authenticated-user:_huitema@huitema.net@[172.58.46.251]) (envelope-sender ) by xmail06.myhosting.com (qmail-ldap-1.03) with ESMTPA for ; 23 Jan 2020 23:53:35 -0000 Subject: Re: Proposed extension for delayed acknowledgments To: Matt Joras , Ian Swett Cc: Jana Iyengar , QUIC WG References: From: Christian Huitema Autocrypt: addr=huitema@huitema.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFIRX8gBCAC26usy/Ya38IqaLBSu33vKD6hP5Yw390XsWLaAZTeQR64OJEkoOdXpvcOS HWfMIlD5s5+oHfLe8jjmErFAXYJ8yytPj1fD2OdSKAe1TccUBiOXT8wdVxSr5d0alExVv/LO I/vA2aU1TwOkVHKSapD7j8/HZBrqIWRrXUSj2f5n9tY2nJzG9KRzSG0giaJWBfUFiGb4lvsy IaCaIU0YpfkDDk6PtK5YYzuCeF0B+O7N9LhDu/foUUc4MNq4K3EKDPb2FL1Hrv0XHpkXeMRZ olpH8SUFUJbmi+zYRuUgcXgMZRmZFL1tu6z9h6gY4/KPyF9aYot6zG28Qk/BFQRtj7V1ABEB AAG0J0NocmlzdGlhbiBIdWl0ZW1hIDxodWl0ZW1hQGh1aXRlbWEubmV0PokBOQQTAQIAIwUC UhFfyAIbLwcLCQgHAwIBBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJEJNDCbJVyA1yhbYH/1ud6x6m VqGIp0JcZUfSQO8w+TjugqxCyGNn+w/6Qb5O/xENxNQ4HaMQ5uSRK9n8WKKDDRSzwZ4syKKf wbkfj05vgFxrjCynVbm1zs2X2aGXh+PxPL/WHUaxzEP7KjYbLtCUZDRzOOrm+0LMktngT/k3 6+EZoLEM52hwwpIAzJoscyEz7QfqMOZtFm6xQnlvDQeIrHx0KUvwo/vgDLK3SuruG1CSHcR0 D24kEEUa044AIUKBS3b0b8AR7f6mP2NcnLpdsibtpabi9BzqAidcY/EjTaoea46HXALk/eJd 6OLkLE6UQe1PPzQC4jB7rErX2BxnSkHDw50xMgLRcl5/b1a5AQ0EUhFfyAEIAKp7Cp8lqKTV CC9QiAf6QTIjW+lie5J44Ad++0k8gRgANZVWubQuCQ71gxDWLtxYfFkEXjG4TXV/MUtnOliG 5rc2E+ih6Dg61Y5PQakm9OwPIsOx+2R+iSW325ngln2UQrVPgloO83QiUoi7mBJPbcHlxkhZ bd3+EjFxSLIQogt29sTcg2oSh4oljUpz5niTt69IOfZx21kf29NfDE+Iw56gfrxI2ywZbu5o G+d0ZSp0lsovygpk4jK04fDTq0vxjEU5HjPcsXC4CSZdq5E2DrF4nOh1UHkHzeaXdYR2Bn1Y wTePfaHBFlvQzI+Li/Q6AD/uxbTM0vIcsUxrv3MNHCUAEQEAAYkCPgQYAQIACQUCUhFfyAIb LgEpCRCTQwmyVcgNcsBdIAQZAQIABgUCUhFfyAAKCRC22tOSFDh1UOlBB/94RsCJepNvmi/c YiNmMnm0mKb6vjv43OsHkqrrCqJSfo95KHyl5Up4JEp8tiJMyYT2mp4IsirZHxz/5lqkw9Az tcGAF3GlFsj++xTyD07DXlNeddwTKlqPRi/b8sppjtWur6Pm+wnAHp0mQ7GidhxHccFCl65w uT7S/ocb1MjrTgnAMiz+x87d48n1UJ7yIdI41Wpg2XFZiA9xPBiDuuoPwFj14/nK0elV5Dvq 4/HVgfurb4+fd74PV/CC/dmd7hg0ZRlgnB5rFUcFO7ywb7/TvICIIaLWcI42OJDSZjZ/MAzz BeXm263lHh+kFxkh2LxEHnQGHCHGpTYyi4Z3dv03HtkH/1SI8joQMQq00Bv+RdEbJXfEExrT u4gtdZAihwvy97OPA2nCdTAHm/phkzryMeOaOztI4PS8u2Ce5lUB6P/HcGtK/038KdX5MYST Fn8KUDt4o29bkv0CUXwDzS3oTzPNtGdryBkRMc9b+yn9+AdwFEH4auhiTQXPMnl0+G3nhKr7 jvzVFJCRif3OAhEm4vmBNDE3uuaXFQnbK56GJrnqVN+KX5Z3M7X3fA8UcVCGOEHXRP/aubiw Ngawj0V9x+43kUapFp+nF69R53UI65YtJ95ec4PTO/Edvap8h1UbdEOc4+TiYwY1TBuIKltY 1cnrjgAWUh/Ucvr++/KbD9tD6C8= Message-ID: Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 13:53:34 -1000 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.3.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------28660DCB9C0C0F927A029571" Content-Language: en-US X-Originating-IP: 66.113.196.54 X-Spampanel-Domain: xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Username: 66.113.196.54/32 Authentication-Results: antispamcloud.com; auth=pass smtp.auth=66.113.196.54/32@xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Class: unsure X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.15) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: Mvzo4OR0dZXEDF/gcnlw0Xm17NJf4el5vffImWwWrhCpSDasLI4SayDByyq9LIhVUZbR67CQ7/vm /hHDJU4RXkTNWdUk1Ol2OGx3IfrIJKywOmJyM1qr8uRnWBrbSAGDcnqpk5VeF3xR4kF6iVwRtbgN zB/4Jkrw1eDLcif59fuv7H4fAEd3jDxi+CPHMabQU7Tmz6iKnkQL9gqsxD347235Nhqq+/HvroPq 8GSPg+74LWa7CQmuPqubx6p17OY0mdySlZou9qHIGOZDEEo7O2nS6C1mWTD2n8BB0gTSSfDtw+Ut ziY+nbU7qa50sEXj8hEv6ylbrSataIASdByf+qyWDcKgIew/Pqmv8CiR0A+Ffy7fEg460Hn2xYnW avStyzAiWbbj13U46jbWFIz21cHX/YzWyFk7762whX3QQ+5uhkPm88V7ziklAaTl19sU919xeAvO xjeQEcL5lNmXdLn4jABaJqtNDIuGYj2WGeveXgFMyx0sD4hRS2uyMFprER9E+btGG8Xk1uugE/FU 4J9TrjYo22Tif+7yfJXbGyN6EipRzMVZ5LqwTx7Vvn9SP+LiFhV9TEgXGI3XmDfDnENKZoz6+9jH ZlRrmMBt+BDz2d1yjkFv24BTZKvMCQ2EMdGf9jxTjAbcssxOWvzSO7zHfbHlDWvW4ZZiIFi92a5U m8KWdSFeQnTBRLwS7gfuOqm8/r0+qTPcKikROuC+AF1677oPXF7r5zsW33ZNlioxqQg0B9zqPYtr 2ATQN1BqWDvBhuNO4tpnc980Bg7nrcP4xTYs4wbkOHSIXWflfJyI7SXtDEcYqeKNf++YLaVuXPWl FdaGOH191uXjgjQN/bk/tOvsMDZmQNfeGxdXg4HrMugt+zJJgxKvNpt0Ev3o83g9ueTJOU6a76yp yxjdeg8YhWenlMfuvb1mNY5/IPiuedK/Z3MvnAyDmuOaA5CGZRWsGw8ac2InzcAP/gmxwNpms+rB 6wJM+NNhN3aT35NSU/fjw6KbqLw80r1gDO3m6U0LjBzYuQztdAThgtWSU3qCINKqlAdh+ePAcEwD s/8= X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@quarantine11.antispamcloud.com Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 23:53:44 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------28660DCB9C0C0F927A029571 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 1/23/2020 12:25 PM, Matt Joras wrote: > Thank you Jana and Ian for doing this! > > As I noted on #3304, we have also observed this sort of change is > critical to reducing client-originated ACK traffic for typical > Internet content, and for CPU performance of both client and server. > Noting here that I have opened an issue (#17 > ) for the > following: given that we have a basic heuristic that seems to work > pretty well for multiple deployments (default behavior for first 100 > packets, packet tolerance of 10 after), do we want to make that > recommendation explicit in the extension itself? +1 Also, I am a bit concerned of the slippery slope there. Suppose a peer receives a frame that says "only every 22 packets please". Are we going to flag a protocol violation if the receiver acks after 23 packets? Or 10? Or 1? -- Christian Huitema --------------28660DCB9C0C0F927A029571 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On 1/23/2020 12:25 PM, Matt Joras wrote:

Thank you Jana and Ian for doing this!

As I noted on #3304, we have also observed this sort of change is critical to reducing client-originated ACK traffic for typical Internet content, and for CPU performance of both client and server. Noting here that I have opened an issue (#17) for the following: given that we have a basic heuristic that seems to work pretty well for multiple deployments (default behavior for first 100 packets, packet tolerance of 10 after), do we want to make that recommendation explicit in the extension itself?

+1

Also, I am a bit concerned of the slippery slope there. Suppose a peer receives a frame that says "only every 22 packets please". Are we going to flag a protocol violation if the receiver acks after 23 packets? Or 10? Or 1?

-- Christian Huitema

--------------28660DCB9C0C0F927A029571-- From nobody Thu Jan 23 16:08:50 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9525120091 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 16:08:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ABCC_QWr6s3j for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 16:08:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x234.google.com (mail-lj1-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EE83C120041 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 16:08:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x234.google.com with SMTP id y4so376186ljj.9 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 16:08:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=xuzmqeJ4OhMBGEKqQUbVIdb+gTO98gHRjwxgabj5oME=; b=jESDXI1a3hTisz8+exsTxIDyCcAPRtRQaCJgZCspkxrvGF/f3ABGTjMUW6P53E5w6B vpzl1+GqsC789WNDU71ErLAMQq2VWhqa3nmKu3PQC6KN+p8xDUhcC65zDjj8ca1jicsY fwr09iQyme1Sha+ASHzdOHYS+HEPDLXWZ5YXUA6EZfWZ0/nJktC/HxQ/Sqi8OC3DAyx5 9Z3PVhQK47f+tPqA6ejeJ6LpsTAoDaGvlUvxri8PC5AOH+GR5nmOATVcHjEM6r9ENzh6 YENpCxwf0POx4m1SP3l22wf2/gsQuv9GFLidGTngMST5xrLAZxhAxzWE+URrdpRgYYk2 CInA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=xuzmqeJ4OhMBGEKqQUbVIdb+gTO98gHRjwxgabj5oME=; b=mTp5B1QDpcxh4vorSJCwCvE/9erlCY5CQAjQ5Yc+zwqif85FctnVQVKfdT2HapzmT/ aVl01tcM8JZSO52KbTjnCo+s0GfeVwPHTRHfbEo448BvKwO277gMvNlwlVJloup42U2g 5VGSvyXskG/CNc0PBxwQQ7v3bdmVa9wW85GwC593yUAlys/C6iVUnYjmFzAl9yOVLh9+ 7TvWD85JjzXBR4EmZ1qIGtq3/Zs34Luz2/msGWGH2rJqc5B/kX4jT8UmMxG9QSvm6oVU B8yBTApOFb0WHc9hbhDvK97kPtfwmmgW++nRNCbWtGNI5GWhDIvKopQWhg4mhoIGFkaK UoXQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWvJXB4CjPZGdBKHBV7xnBVwIdQ/4ad2adfm4pdAT/2Gk+NYTD3 039cQV/NNwjVhayOv8N96c7HmbqkpwUNfiBOne4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwq86nuYu9EymuMir7bEMdeb6DWKRJqm6FCqYyN8Dy760bloxMm6YVOIChr11wO5LisgsRLizK+IOZk8ilDu7Q= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:2201:: with SMTP id i1mr560144lji.110.1579824521969; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 16:08:41 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Jana Iyengar Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 16:08:31 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Proposed extension for delayed acknowledgments To: Christian Huitema Cc: Matt Joras , Ian Swett , QUIC WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000070833b059cd78f03" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2020 00:08:48 -0000 --00000000000070833b059cd78f03 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Christian, No, that would be silly :-) There are exceptions allowed at a receiver -- such as when the receiver receives a batch of packets -- and we have to allow for such things to happen. Also, ack loss, late timers, scheduler delays, are all things that can cause a receiver to not follow the schedule exactly. That's ok. - jana On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 3:53 PM Christian Huitema wrote: > On 1/23/2020 12:25 PM, Matt Joras wrote: > > Thank you Jana and Ian for doing this! > > As I noted on #3304, we have also observed this sort of change is critical > to reducing client-originated ACK traffic for typical Internet content, and > for CPU performance of both client and server. Noting here that I have > opened an issue (#17 > ) for the > following: given that we have a basic heuristic that seems to work pretty > well for multiple deployments (default behavior for first 100 packets, > packet tolerance of 10 after), do we want to make that recommendation > explicit in the extension itself? > > +1 > > Also, I am a bit concerned of the slippery slope there. Suppose a peer > receives a frame that says "only every 22 packets please". Are we going to > flag a protocol violation if the receiver acks after 23 packets? Or 10? Or > 1? > > -- Christian Huitema > --00000000000070833b059cd78f03 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Christian,

No, that would be silly :-) = There are exceptions allowed at a receiver -- such as when the receiver rec= eives a batch of packets -- and we have to allow for such things to happen.= Also, ack loss, late timers, scheduler delays, are all things that can cau= se a receiver to not follow the schedule exactly. That's ok.
=
- jana

On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 3:53 PM Christian Huitem= a <huitema@huitema.net> wr= ote:
=20 =20 =20

On 1/23/2020 12:25 PM, Matt Joras wrote:

Thank you Jana and Ian for doing this!

As I noted on #3304, we have also observed this sort of change is critical to reducing client-originated ACK traffic for typical Internet content, and for CPU performance of both client and server. Noting here that I have opened an issue (#17<= /a>) for the following: given that we have a basic heuristic that seems to work pretty well for multiple deployments (default behavior for first 100 packets, packet tolerance of 10 after), do we want to make that recommendation explicit in the extension itself?

+1

Also, I am a bit concerned of the slippery slope there. Suppose a peer receives a frame that says "only every 22 packets please&qu= ot;. Are we going to flag a protocol violation if the receiver acks after 23 packets? Or 10? Or 1?

-- Christian Huitema

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If you object, please do = so on the issue or in response to this message (changing the Subject = appropriately!). Absent any pushback, we'll direct the editors to = incorporate them just before the Zurich meeting. See for the current = state of issues in the Late Stage process, itself defined at = . * #3357: Only send one immediate ACK after reordering The proposal is * #3345: Clarify the definition of things that make messages malformed The proposal is * #3307: Allow use of token after client address changes The proposal is * #3297: Immediate close without state The proposal is * #3275: Why are there two ways of associating push with requests? The proposal is * #3269: CONNECTION_CLOSE for unpadded Initial The proposal is * #3117: Recouple QUIC version and ALPN The proposal is * #2555: Define idle period for congestion control The proposal is * #2125: Document what needs to be checked for address validation The proposal is -- Mark Nottingham https://www.mnot.net/ From nobody Fri Jan 24 14:24:49 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3ED8120A2E for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 14:24:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=litespeedtech-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZBp0r4qI3O0t for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 14:24:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x730.google.com (mail-qk1-x730.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::730]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0B5DC120A05 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 14:24:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x730.google.com with SMTP id 21so3697572qky.4 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 14:24:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=litespeedtech-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:mail-followup-to:mime-version :content-disposition:user-agent; bh=idNCEI8F11OK96Hn3OG4ZwL3uTy9TBHV6W1qlzw2LHo=; b=VrMQYquWovBm5Z8d3cLuBeoTdhFxwJ/HQNYgAtp7iwt4rshPvd/r0FE+uv4BUfRYk8 E4R2mrkPsjOY9t7i0pa3aA/ISF8b5HNHxFNXetGi7Gda/NQBdFuTKLAPYMfaj9NaWl6H IYbgD0JkcH0BdGtw+0XmynhunrtIrOke2nlkcropiKS+pf+IY06ouC0MmYTmWjjpP75x Y37FeX6GvtOK9QL9XZpDb9yhfpeLCMZEMmIiJFNLBDShy7lMQIdh1obx+5KlKZ9/qEKZ RLqP1rwW0NV/ZIys3ikEkptZ2JtTsyx53OiF6xgSmaLHlSbOsDM6+LV+/OdhZEZbHvzM pn1A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:mail-followup-to :mime-version:content-disposition:user-agent; bh=idNCEI8F11OK96Hn3OG4ZwL3uTy9TBHV6W1qlzw2LHo=; b=D1ymfVv3XzwwT2PUgW7Kv9cKw7dIaRrwI2WHu/aS0R9/bsNyWIkPcBn9MK10WPvKdV Suci8iTZ+C1WSg1ugtrBEjQE6dGDAK2gAtz2Jh/okRFiqziNjHh/8MJwtjeU37IFxZnT fVe15j8zFtOEHCPSTBuc1NplDfICSiTw18MWIpuKq5DGN6Qqrd0A+0Ln6RkSvqUlqywi KWaP+N1FgwwEaR3xDU3p4K89c4l9wkV8Px4yhE9ddGYR8UxXoKRmitYxFIpoO/ybsKDX g6SVSzxjV54XKtTxFeITei93zL/nBw6tLO8T2uRhp/cXUeIESRD3X7d8pN/RStUaUqUI GYrQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVJq/JZsAqdb+cQ0OCt0SQ7XaWv9Am7sQqPW0asL1pLESKYgF5A 5t/XLtCwKQKkAnTtRfM9bKHVDlUkoTo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqw2UBQMDKOwGOFuN88aUjMwEjQpgy0aIPdXOk5dfpFiiny4w25vsjA8fnC7nlRlCRV1MVRZ/A== X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:718:: with SMTP id 24mr5042564qkc.77.1579904683783; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 14:24:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from ubuntu-dmitri (ool-2f1636b6.static.optonline.net. [47.22.54.182]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s20sm4053855qkj.100.2020.01.24.14.24.43 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 24 Jan 2020 14:24:43 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2020 17:24:35 -0500 From: Dmitri Tikhonov To: IETF QUIC WG Subject: Alternative ways to keeps ODCID on the server Message-ID: <20200124222434.GA8279@ubuntu-dmitri> Mail-Followup-To: IETF QUIC WG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2020 22:24:47 -0000 Hello, PR 3107 introduced the following text: If a server receives a client Initial that can be unprotected but contains an invalid Retry token, it knows the client will not accept another Retry token. The server can discard such a packet and allow the client to time out to detect handshake failure, but that could impose a significant latency penalty on the client. A server MAY proceed with the connection without verifying the token, though the server MUST NOT consider the client address validated. If a server chooses not to proceed with the handshake, it SHOULD immediately close (Section 10.3) the connection with an INVALID_TOKEN error. Note that a server has not established any state for the connection at this point and so does not enter the closing period. The problem with the "server MAY proceed" part is that the server's transport parameters MUST include original_connection_id. If ODCID cannot be extracted from the invalid Retry token, then the server cannot let this connection proceed. Questions: 1. The Retry token seems like the obvious place for the server to store ODCID. Is there an implementation that does something else (state on server)? 2. Should we spell out this caveat in the draft? I.e. "server MAY proceed if it possesses ODCID." Thanks, - Dmitri. 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Jan 2020 02:18:20 -0000 On 1/24/2020 2:24 PM, Dmitri Tikhonov wrote: > Hello, > > PR 3107 introduced the following text: > > If a server receives a client Initial that can be unprotected but > contains an invalid Retry token, it knows the client will not accept > another Retry token. The server can discard such a packet and allow > the client to time out to detect handshake failure, but that could > impose a significant latency penalty on the client. A server MAY > proceed with the connection without verifying the token, though the > server MUST NOT consider the client address validated. If a server > chooses not to proceed with the handshake, it SHOULD immediately > close (Section 10.3) the connection with an INVALID_TOKEN error. > Note that a server has not established any state for the connection > at this point and so does not enter the closing period. > > The problem with the "server MAY proceed" part is that the server's > transport parameters MUST include original_connection_id. If ODCID > cannot be extracted from the invalid Retry token, then the server > cannot let this connection proceed. > > Questions: > > 1. The Retry token seems like the obvious place for the server > to store ODCID. Is there an implementation that does something > else (state on server)? > > 2. Should we spell out this caveat in the draft? I.e. "server MAY > proceed if it possesses ODCID." What if the Initial packet carried a token from an expired NEW TOKEN frame? -- Christian Huitema From nobody Fri Jan 24 20:42:12 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6282F1200F3 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 20:42:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x4_D-mRNLfv0 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 20:42:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x133.google.com (mail-lf1-x133.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::133]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4C15012004E for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 20:42:09 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x133.google.com with SMTP id f24so2627975lfh.3 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 20:42:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=QvhUZ4RbHACo7TDTJIC/pfilale4gR0jnft3OZlXqJU=; b=Nxd9QbKe/honZp3jKfW7DPlLa8dlEMB0Cv9RfUCMjfYtKGTwfHb8k16DAt6yxbHRnD bKxrJ6vHLCewE3RQKVYoPRUomuxtu2YDeakNJx1oc773Zed/2HpM7wgkOI6w1I/J1xRb HUXKWlEbHwK76vz1iGQx02olWB1NlWxAm39Hu+QoUrTkxblxgE5NCceI2I7qD3+7pv0c l+2zKdGXpmi8my26T5XILNO/5AH8LOJiO+SuqrOyjagT2Scm5r3TV3+NTrhhRDxF+EWH 6pRCVN4E8i+Q+cErzmTDu5dlJw09Xo04P+nIBcuI3u1BYGZ8cXslftvJ3NjfzupYHqaL LKfg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=QvhUZ4RbHACo7TDTJIC/pfilale4gR0jnft3OZlXqJU=; b=M2wQamEyLPLAACpIBX85BHpN0CwsGI3/6szg0pkWLp0BN3ECDRzpPlgwEW6lzXeU6S PD7+zIybKTVoCYLuXpOlRHwzI92+3/qB+PlhOadt1me4i0A67QCbtI8KsHftfQC68ddw fecU26x/RLosUQwirtEBdlxAZqjq7U6+rpuPSn7ZwqfsUeZApvVNKunO3w27+fzWbPd7 iEBBOuf6gS0JYg1HaFwYSJ6fXSyXPqnXgirz1PY1NQwoD96kRj6dT/yLucItuTejKGXM ZcEr2Cr+ARirqK19wv6fLRqJtkC87cWxeA59Hhj0mu7Uq2GWOkNr4n4sZE+By/ZDT6gu GVhQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVe4dYoRe25qd8rx56KtZpDQ9YdZLQAhNt8Dh7zR0ivsl0RjKtK aHT2Kp8F7VdZBlVH0PRTxehAgKqdsoy+O5zMe0Eve2su X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwdLkrALNump5wCKQD8Zt0DMNUNxuWMBdEtTuwI7OevjK4qEvSunbRX+snBCJnX7q3TCIGfMQer5qaOi/ZcFvE= X-Received: by 2002:a19:4849:: with SMTP id v70mr3090139lfa.30.1579927327349; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 20:42:07 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200124222434.GA8279@ubuntu-dmitri> <7b228c14-c0d3-6458-77ab-945e713ef429@huitema.net> In-Reply-To: <7b228c14-c0d3-6458-77ab-945e713ef429@huitema.net> From: Marten Seemann Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2020 11:41:55 +0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Alternative ways to keeps ODCID on the server To: Christian Huitema Cc: IETF QUIC WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001e1efe059cef7fd4" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2020 04:42:11 -0000 --0000000000001e1efe059cef7fd4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Then it's not a *Retry* token, then it's a NEW_TOKEN token. It's a kind of subtle distinction (as I noted in https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3107#discussion_r349859380). On Sat, Jan 25, 2020 at 9:18 AM Christian Huitema wrote: > On 1/24/2020 2:24 PM, Dmitri Tikhonov wrote: > > Hello, > > > > PR 3107 introduced the following text: > > > > If a server receives a client Initial that can be unprotected but > > contains an invalid Retry token, it knows the client will not accept > > another Retry token. The server can discard such a packet and allow > > the client to time out to detect handshake failure, but that could > > impose a significant latency penalty on the client. A server MAY > > proceed with the connection without verifying the token, though the > > server MUST NOT consider the client address validated. If a server > > chooses not to proceed with the handshake, it SHOULD immediately > > close (Section 10.3) the connection with an INVALID_TOKEN error. > > Note that a server has not established any state for the connection > > at this point and so does not enter the closing period. > > > > The problem with the "server MAY proceed" part is that the server's > > transport parameters MUST include original_connection_id. If ODCID > > cannot be extracted from the invalid Retry token, then the server > > cannot let this connection proceed. > > > > Questions: > > > > 1. The Retry token seems like the obvious place for the server > > to store ODCID. Is there an implementation that does something > > else (state on server)? > > > > 2. Should we spell out this caveat in the draft? I.e. "server MAY > > proceed if it possesses ODCID." > > > What if the Initial packet carried a token from an expired NEW TOKEN frame? > > -- Christian Huitema > > --0000000000001e1efe059cef7fd4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sat, Jan 25, 2020 at 9:18 AM Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net> wrote:
On 1/24/2020 2:24 PM, = Dmitri Tikhonov wrote:
> Hello,
>
> PR 3107 introduced the following text:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 If a server receives a client Initial that can be unprote= cted but
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 contains an invalid Retry token, it knows the client will= not accept
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 another Retry token.=C2=A0 The server can discard such a = packet and allow
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 the client to time out to detect handshake failure, but t= hat could
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 impose a significant latency penalty on the client.=C2=A0= A server MAY
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 proceed with the connection without verifying the token, = though the
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 server MUST NOT consider the client address validated.=C2= =A0 If a server
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 chooses not to proceed with the handshake, it SHOULD imme= diately
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 close (Section 10.3) the connection with an INVALID_TOKEN= error.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Note that a server has not established any state for the = connection
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 at this point and so does not enter the closing period. >
> The problem with the "server MAY proceed" part is that the s= erver's
> transport parameters MUST include original_connection_id.=C2=A0 If ODC= ID
> cannot be extracted from the invalid Retry token, then the server
> cannot let this connection proceed.
>
> Questions:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A01. The Retry token seems like the obvious place for= the server
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 to store ODCID.=C2=A0 Is there an implement= ation that does something
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 else (state on server)?
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A02. Should we spell out this caveat in the draft?=C2= =A0 I.e. "server MAY
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 proceed if it possesses ODCID."


What if the Initial packet carried a token from an expired NEW TOKEN frame?=

-- Christian Huitema

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Fri, 24 Jan 2020 21:11:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from xse76.mail2web.com ([66.113.196.76] helo=xse.mail2web.com) by mx105.antispamcloud.com with esmtp (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1ivDih-000858-FP for quic@ietf.org; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 06:10:58 +0100 Received: from xsmtp21.mail2web.com (unknown [10.100.68.60]) by xse.mail2web.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 484PH200lHzDPr for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 21:10:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.5.2.13] (helo=xmail03.myhosting.com) by xsmtp21.mail2web.com with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1ivDif-0007MZ-SN for quic@ietf.org; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 21:10:53 -0800 Received: (qmail 9842 invoked from network); 25 Jan 2020 05:10:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.105]) (Authenticated-user:_huitema@huitema.net@[172.58.46.251]) (envelope-sender ) by xmail03.myhosting.com (qmail-ldap-1.03) with ESMTPA for ; 25 Jan 2020 05:10:53 -0000 To: Marten Seemann Cc: IETF QUIC WG References: <20200124222434.GA8279@ubuntu-dmitri> <7b228c14-c0d3-6458-77ab-945e713ef429@huitema.net> From: Christian Huitema Autocrypt: addr=huitema@huitema.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFIRX8gBCAC26usy/Ya38IqaLBSu33vKD6hP5Yw390XsWLaAZTeQR64OJEkoOdXpvcOS HWfMIlD5s5+oHfLe8jjmErFAXYJ8yytPj1fD2OdSKAe1TccUBiOXT8wdVxSr5d0alExVv/LO I/vA2aU1TwOkVHKSapD7j8/HZBrqIWRrXUSj2f5n9tY2nJzG9KRzSG0giaJWBfUFiGb4lvsy IaCaIU0YpfkDDk6PtK5YYzuCeF0B+O7N9LhDu/foUUc4MNq4K3EKDPb2FL1Hrv0XHpkXeMRZ olpH8SUFUJbmi+zYRuUgcXgMZRmZFL1tu6z9h6gY4/KPyF9aYot6zG28Qk/BFQRtj7V1ABEB AAG0J0NocmlzdGlhbiBIdWl0ZW1hIDxodWl0ZW1hQGh1aXRlbWEubmV0PokBOQQTAQIAIwUC UhFfyAIbLwcLCQgHAwIBBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJEJNDCbJVyA1yhbYH/1ud6x6m VqGIp0JcZUfSQO8w+TjugqxCyGNn+w/6Qb5O/xENxNQ4HaMQ5uSRK9n8WKKDDRSzwZ4syKKf wbkfj05vgFxrjCynVbm1zs2X2aGXh+PxPL/WHUaxzEP7KjYbLtCUZDRzOOrm+0LMktngT/k3 6+EZoLEM52hwwpIAzJoscyEz7QfqMOZtFm6xQnlvDQeIrHx0KUvwo/vgDLK3SuruG1CSHcR0 D24kEEUa044AIUKBS3b0b8AR7f6mP2NcnLpdsibtpabi9BzqAidcY/EjTaoea46HXALk/eJd 6OLkLE6UQe1PPzQC4jB7rErX2BxnSkHDw50xMgLRcl5/b1a5AQ0EUhFfyAEIAKp7Cp8lqKTV CC9QiAf6QTIjW+lie5J44Ad++0k8gRgANZVWubQuCQ71gxDWLtxYfFkEXjG4TXV/MUtnOliG 5rc2E+ih6Dg61Y5PQakm9OwPIsOx+2R+iSW325ngln2UQrVPgloO83QiUoi7mBJPbcHlxkhZ bd3+EjFxSLIQogt29sTcg2oSh4oljUpz5niTt69IOfZx21kf29NfDE+Iw56gfrxI2ywZbu5o G+d0ZSp0lsovygpk4jK04fDTq0vxjEU5HjPcsXC4CSZdq5E2DrF4nOh1UHkHzeaXdYR2Bn1Y wTePfaHBFlvQzI+Li/Q6AD/uxbTM0vIcsUxrv3MNHCUAEQEAAYkCPgQYAQIACQUCUhFfyAIb LgEpCRCTQwmyVcgNcsBdIAQZAQIABgUCUhFfyAAKCRC22tOSFDh1UOlBB/94RsCJepNvmi/c YiNmMnm0mKb6vjv43OsHkqrrCqJSfo95KHyl5Up4JEp8tiJMyYT2mp4IsirZHxz/5lqkw9Az tcGAF3GlFsj++xTyD07DXlNeddwTKlqPRi/b8sppjtWur6Pm+wnAHp0mQ7GidhxHccFCl65w uT7S/ocb1MjrTgnAMiz+x87d48n1UJ7yIdI41Wpg2XFZiA9xPBiDuuoPwFj14/nK0elV5Dvq 4/HVgfurb4+fd74PV/CC/dmd7hg0ZRlgnB5rFUcFO7ywb7/TvICIIaLWcI42OJDSZjZ/MAzz BeXm263lHh+kFxkh2LxEHnQGHCHGpTYyi4Z3dv03HtkH/1SI8joQMQq00Bv+RdEbJXfEExrT u4gtdZAihwvy97OPA2nCdTAHm/phkzryMeOaOztI4PS8u2Ce5lUB6P/HcGtK/038KdX5MYST Fn8KUDt4o29bkv0CUXwDzS3oTzPNtGdryBkRMc9b+yn9+AdwFEH4auhiTQXPMnl0+G3nhKr7 jvzVFJCRif3OAhEm4vmBNDE3uuaXFQnbK56GJrnqVN+KX5Z3M7X3fA8UcVCGOEHXRP/aubiw Ngawj0V9x+43kUapFp+nF69R53UI65YtJ95ec4PTO/Edvap8h1UbdEOc4+TiYwY1TBuIKltY 1cnrjgAWUh/Ucvr++/KbD9tD6C8= Subject: Re: Alternative ways to keeps ODCID on the server Message-ID: Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2020 21:10:53 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------6644F2EAA31BD141E322892E" Content-Language: en-US X-Originating-IP: 66.113.196.76 X-Spampanel-Domain: xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Username: 66.113.196.76/32 Authentication-Results: antispamcloud.com; auth=pass smtp.auth=66.113.196.76/32@xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Class: unsure X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.15) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: Mvzo4OR0dZXEDF/gcnlw0Xm17NJf4el5vffImWwWrhCpSDasLI4SayDByyq9LIhVUZbR67CQ7/vm /hHDJU4RXkTNWdUk1Ol2OGx3IfrIJKywOmJyM1qr8uRnWBrbSAGDcnqpk5VeF3xR4kF6iVwRtbgN zB/4Jkrw1eDLcif59fszEzXKmn63swpHo/PelNqAU7Tmz6iKnkQL9gqsxD347235Nhqq+/HvroPq 8GSPg+60/QPNqXybIny9WGhadIo/G0KF6HkLuWi8fS7fvK7Hsbyme9ldZJ7uNXfg/GfS8fUvP/L5 rCqHDsKZM+xa1iwJX+gRCHfMVnsAk591zk0uilUI+ZL4xWiN8NS6C+dmX6OEdA4u1aThyWrQ/ou2 +v/lmX4Em37yFgrCB6NHRn1g+f3uncIqYSL3lhh5c81YyJqFoLZMmkWsaurVZfvqROaDnDtHb8z5 dpPkEuJ8Snwqla7jUnW3hy14Yji8fo+4xCnSRo4Rcu5Z37rMuDjCny5fE9ykbJ7I9co1MAEE3ruN Xsm8UJsAPvDcVSKtDCYkioPY5Qx4fJOk03R5fJtf/Dv/dkIzS7m4GUpXCY1Y3j3ilWEbX+OBfQvZ a2Z4uSB28NLsVfldh9QC5asKXSds+jxTE2178q9+io3QjGp37HglmXgGKVfhC8zq9PE22YzskJf0 lSfuxANzRU5MAZzTOSGBXmU+7Bi0hHs5Xv3mbYdSg/KY2AXNZGS5G93aGyH8MqMNONNOB63tZ91H 4Bn0Oix6QdNdUv0AhDIVja4pEVuz/JxMPnetLBJMh51NiRRoHIAB2kNBUEwtDRIYyiaSWeh/miK7 x42VjdzChZMe6O/DiWiiIzuXMTE3l4bIsk+O50vnufqXdvUcknHtggd4AM9V08QV3No+S2msRDep v5w/kkG0v17AmegcpQ0tml/sN9lmMy/o83jVXTcfb9k0nLWblJy7uxV6dw8jzlsaNZe6hynMJcjx DydxsJEju76A7X1QIVydqXpZ6MHhiKws9Iiut28r9wo4SqUIg8Yh9hAM0n3LLzx/F2gT3wl8JQJv Bho= X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@quarantine11.antispamcloud.com Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2020 05:11:03 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------6644F2EAA31BD141E322892E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 1/24/2020 8:41 PM, Marten Seemann wrote: > Then it's not a *Retry* token, then it's a NEW_TOKEN token. > It's a kind of subtle distinction (as I noted in > https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3107#discussion_r349859380).= I understand that they are different. But look at the text in draft-25: If a server receives a client Initial that can be unprotected but contains an invalid Retry token, it knows the client will not accept another Retry token. The server can discard such a packet and allow the client to time out to detect handshake failure, but that could impose a significant latency penalty on the client. A server MAY proceed with the connection without verifying the token, though the server MUST NOT consider the client address validated. If a server chooses not to proceed with the handshake, it SHOULD immediately close (Section 10.3 ) the connection with an INVALID_TOKEN error. Note that a server has not established any state for the connection at this point and so does not enter the closing period. Invalid is invalid. An invalid token is something that the server cannot = parse. The server does not know whether the client got the token from a retry pa= cket or a new token frame, or just made it up with random bytes.=20 -- Christian Huitema --------------6644F2EAA31BD141E322892E Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit


On 1/24/2020 8:41 PM, Marten Seemann wrote:
Then it's not a *Retry* token, then it's a NEW_TOKEN token.
It's a kind of subtle distinction (as I noted in https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3107#discussion_r349859380).


I understand that they are different. But look at the text in draft-25:

   If a server receives a client Initial that can be unprotected but
   contains an invalid Retry token, it knows the client will not accept
   another Retry token.  The server can discard such a packet and allow
   the client to time out to detect handshake failure, but that could
   impose a significant latency penalty on the client.  A server MAY
   proceed with the connection without verifying the token, though the
   server MUST NOT consider the client address validated.  If a server
   chooses not to proceed with the handshake, it SHOULD immediately
   close (Section 10.3) the connection with an INVALID_TOKEN error.
   Note that a server has not established any state for the connection
   at this point and so does not enter the closing period.

Invalid is invalid. An invalid token is something that the server cannot parse.
The server does not know whether the client got the token from a retry packet
or a new token frame, or just made it up with random bytes. 

-- Christian Huitema
--------------6644F2EAA31BD141E322892E-- From nobody Sat Jan 25 13:37:09 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1947512006F for ; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 13:37:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -17.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-17.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kslLdToekC8Q for ; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 13:37:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr1-x42f.google.com (mail-wr1-x42f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0FA2512004C for ; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 13:37:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr1-x42f.google.com with SMTP id w15so6336109wru.4 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 13:37:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=FKgrlI9NCba9/W9gNRAqsxzph/U41yZqrLZTuSJgH2I=; b=GCaxO1mL8O90TA72ZRNuuHLV8VqrL6rFS69GPCrY40+s02+sjfoap1/cUkpT29s3Hr mBRTSHxDELwPJAIjaQ20qN7mk9qC1m+NpKGkCg8Jt5GRQHPsS5e2TUevvrxfwyGHAWuN gFJ0uPX75zJd17BMSFY98xG7HAi5DehDofgHV3e32nekm98T0JhXheHIvTKaQmjeUqzK bU6ZWU3ETC8Jbpqmc7YiPeudLOL4y2laW8WL7VhqMdpljSYlTnAwNbT8VoOclq2g3o94 iVT7sFHXhfTk4CwUtPrfthuGo3P3cnN9ME0DUN2pbnogSlT3cJoil7nOU04PnMf5DVqU 7uLw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=FKgrlI9NCba9/W9gNRAqsxzph/U41yZqrLZTuSJgH2I=; b=cD7AiYWfIVkQMC05X1ZdGrVZSnzzVouHw6Dr9Ty/KqZMie1ySXD2ZFFKDxLL/kaXqe Wis+c1fIOA8gI/57ZeCszLNo6RfwHmfORcCDhG1UgOInDc/KMnJrcr5DWGCUlNLJW/by y7gEEcfeSei5a38thDkcquvu9Co0IrFkOq47JAxpcP16fXRr86LkY1PDnIPFLlxf4MRm I/1yMTJ1RMJXVxbvDl/0NMxU99IECYjaz9PhQ3lUbqcjb7C0JF10bgFpGe4kJbyWo3ZI 62qeH3L+xi/iBjKwr3taI42DhUkGFpUYAT8jUBBl397PTr3TxGIAIXsWClQWRGGyAmch FkrQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVCdut9znaNN7LmVFGLSDOWH7nu0pVlc+FoP2xBv6PyQSK6wF3t FWdAiACcQt74crh/yWowFdZVK1P4nQKzQK0Ar90E3w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwCgHVpnkI5OYaRbW7iUXriDZ65s1pCHyZHaoVTGQzhro6vPvZRCzO0XVWSyCkp2DO88P5an8/32/AMSk9crlY= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:40c9:: with SMTP id b9mr12519751wrq.419.1579988223245; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 13:37:03 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200124222434.GA8279@ubuntu-dmitri> <7b228c14-c0d3-6458-77ab-945e713ef429@huitema.net> In-Reply-To: From: Ian Swett Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2020 16:36:51 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Alternative ways to keeps ODCID on the server To: Christian Huitema Cc: Marten Seemann , IETF QUIC WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000cc101c059cfdaca1" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2020 21:37:07 -0000 --000000000000cc101c059cfdaca1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" This is a bit of an edge case, so spelling out what's required to proceed seems reasonable to me. On Sat, Jan 25, 2020 at 12:11 AM Christian Huitema wrote: > > On 1/24/2020 8:41 PM, Marten Seemann wrote: > > Then it's not a *Retry* token, then it's a NEW_TOKEN token. > It's a kind of subtle distinction (as I noted in > https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3107#discussion_r349859380). > > > I understand that they are different. But look at the text in draft-25: > > If a server receives a client Initial that can be unprotected but > contains an invalid Retry token, it knows the client will not accept > another Retry token. The server can discard such a packet and allow > the client to time out to detect handshake failure, but that could > impose a significant latency penalty on the client. A server MAY > proceed with the connection without verifying the token, though the > server MUST NOT consider the client address validated. If a server > chooses not to proceed with the handshake, it SHOULD immediately > close (Section 10.3 ) the connection with an INVALID_TOKEN error. > Note that a server has not established any state for the connection > at this point and so does not enter the closing period. > > Invalid is invalid. An invalid token is something that the server cannot parse. > The server does not know whether the client got the token from a retry packet > or a new token frame, or just made it up with random bytes. > > -- Christian Huitema > > --000000000000cc101c059cfdaca1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This is a bit of an edge case, so spelling out what's = required to proceed seems reasonable to me.

On Sat, Jan 25, 2020 at 12:11 AM= Christian Huitema <huitema@huite= ma.net> wrote:
=20 =20 =20


On 1/24/2020 8:41 PM, Marten Seemann wrote:
=20
Then it's not a *Retry* token, then it's a NEW_TOKEN t= oken.
It's a kind of subtle distinction (as I noted in https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3107#discussio= n_r349859380).


I understand that they are different. But look at the text in draft-25:

   If a server receives a client Initial that can be unprotected b=
ut
   contains an invalid Retry token, it knows the client will not accept
   another Retry token.  The server can discard such a packet and allow
   the client to time out to detect handshake failure, but that could
   impose a significant latency penalty on the client.  A server MAY
   proceed with the connection without verifying the token, though the
   server MUST NOT consider the client address validated.  If a server
   chooses not to proceed with the handshake, it SHOULD immediately
   close (Section 10.3) the connection with an=
 INVALID_TOKEN error.
   Note that a server has not established any state for the connection
   at this point and so does not enter the closing period.

Invalid is invalid. An invalid token is something that the server cannot pa=
rse.
The server does not know whether the client got the token from a retry pack=
et
or a new token frame, or just made it up with random bytes.=20

-- Christian Huitema
--000000000000cc101c059cfdaca1-- From nobody Sat Jan 25 13:50:35 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4668412006F for ; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 13:50:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -17.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-17.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WJq-89Sap03U for ; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 13:50:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr1-x42b.google.com (mail-wr1-x42b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8620012001E for ; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 13:50:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr1-x42b.google.com with SMTP id g17so6360602wro.2 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 13:50:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=zziaADOt2jZR3pfgQklNXjGZu7t1lL2ClqL0bwqPpeo=; b=Olk9yEDrTyo6B4fJ6nnNMOPHwXOda4X9nBYCxYbVZ2Xgnh4PVNcHZEzI+rDYIE2/C4 MFhUo9ev0rjJCIXPEP+kq5MWQuK6WJ/OLUocq7qIG3JniuwsccA9WXW1M3asRS3kbIT+ W0d0eKzgaUkXGhs1z06kj8+eHVsqhUNKJ83Xzx9D11zOevEwIboF3aZtmEGe2D4CcZgO G60HA6NusA0O2tBUejI74I686Diw/zxFjBIKz4qDPczJzndRVTGFvW//vPzF594xHmGy XE6DOWH4u7Xi0q13T4E/MbF0icd+pukvoffVV6fsfe9hYKDUU/8upt0SAaZ1Rh+Cz9EB QNwQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=zziaADOt2jZR3pfgQklNXjGZu7t1lL2ClqL0bwqPpeo=; b=acF7qaCu/MJ6HSEBInUFLtV9pTJ0Bm4yvLCm8htjqyOl8ajcLx5Cj5SqFDfZ8epZmg jnNvx65heh4omOcMS99Ngus9qYrErbd29HHxgpqanxhkzMzMTQbgpTNj9yGJ2aEnFN/z ZnSNbekv9INXZshg7BHkoAjwKdBhGt5IKhHz4yUTrnfrjSwGKIICZysjq++iWfm/rNKL 68R3cppO85RRV5vn7wCy4ToqCBIR7X3CSHDHAjDeMhtiE2TmJNXxFvkptqRNbHkJaubT Uiy1U2uK5bckpRwk9dRj4Z3DBlWfeo6fhP5DZEEzQOMtzWfUlR1ECifbSljKtmFOonNZ ouMQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUKbaSN267dMmk0ho/55ztD4UkwjR3wbFiqSx2HfZMSos0hGdam lE4Ep/R2ArlTQsqZU7XpOfKHlc7GgIexW8Dvdbhxkw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwCVnHjg26tr0BN5/pVmtDCToOi/CysG/LoHQvChf3jgGdBkpwPnNjnoObMNRge5wy2iLmKIDhTzYSobTdHv5c= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:53d1:: with SMTP id a17mr11447933wrw.327.1579989028702; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 13:50:28 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Ian Swett Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2020 16:50:16 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: FW: [Masque] Proposed draft charter To: Mirja Kuehlewind , David Schinazi Cc: "quic@ietf.org" , tsvwg Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ce60e1059cfddc37" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2020 21:50:34 -0000 --000000000000ce60e1059cfddc37 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Some Q's. This charter looks to be scoped such that it includes any VPN/tunnel that goes over the QUIC transport, not just when HTTP/3 is used. However, it's only scoped to work on use cases when multiple applications want to run over a single QUIC connection? Two thoughts: 1) This seems to put a simple tunnel over QUIC functionality out of scope? I've heard a fair bit of interest in this and I'm not aware of any other group working on it. 2) Some people suggested that multiplexing multiple applications over a single QUIC connection should be in scope for QUIC v2. This charter seems like it's moving that work out of the QUIC WG? Thanks, Ian On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 6:34 PM Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: > Hi all, > > For your information, we've just sent a proposed draft charter text for > MASQUE to the respective mailing list. If you are interested in this work > and would like to comment, please use the MASQUE list. Feedback and > community input is very welcome! > > Mirja > > > > =EF=BB=BFOn 25.01.20, 00:29, "Masque on behalf of Mirja Kuehlewind" < > masque-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of mirja.kuehlewind=3D > 40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > Hi everybody, > > as already indicated by David in his last mail, some of us worked on = a > proposed draft charter for a new group. Please find the text below and > provide comments! > > Thanks! > Mirja > > --------------------------------- > MASQUE draft charter text > > > Many network topologies lead to situations where transport protocol > proxying is beneficial. For example: helping endpoints to communicate whe= n > end-to-end connectivity is not possible, applying additional encryption > where desirable (such as a VPN), or accommodating differences in network > segment characteristics (e.g. long paths such as satellite, or high-loss > links). Many existing proxy solutions deployed today rely on transparent > intermediation. However, an increasing amount of traffic is using QUIC, a= nd > QUIC's improved security model prevents transparent proxies. In order to > allow transport protocol proxying when QUIC is in use, we will need a > mechanism where at least one of the QUIC endpoints actively collaborates > with the proxy. QUIC is a good candidate protocols for tunneling or > forwarding this kind of traffic, as QUIC provides secure connection > establishment, multiplexed streams, and connection migration. Further, us= e > of HTTP/3 on top of QUIC enables HTTP-level proxying and caching. > > This working group will work on MASQUE (Multiplexed Application > Substrate over QUIC Encryption) - a framework that allows concurrently > running multiple networking applications inside a QUIC connection. The > MASQUE framework will specify the actions and processes for establishing > tunneled proxy connectivity as well as a signaling protocol that is used > between the endpoint(s) and the MASQUE server to negotiate and request > proxy service capabilities and parameters, and realize services that > require communication between endpoints and proxies. A proxy may provide > simple forwarding with optional address translation only, or more advance= d > services like name resolution, multipath support, or assistance for > congestion control on link segments with challenging characteristics, suc= h > as high loss or strongly varying delays. > > As use-cases for deploying MASQUE have different security or > performance requirements, the working group may define multiple MASQUE > services for proxying to suit these disparate use-cases. In particular, > some deployments may want to avoid double-encryption to reduce > computational costs if the inner connection as well as the outer QUIC > tunnel connection use encryption, while others might prefer to keep the > double-encryption of user data to sure strong privacy guarantees. Such > options will need to produce documentation of the resulting security and > privacy properties. > > Alongside the definition of the MASQUE framework, the group will > further work on discovery mechanisms for MASQUE servers and which MASQUE > services they support, taking into account deployment across network > segments with different operability and end-user relationship > characteristics. > > Proxy services that extend the signaling of the base MASQUE protocol > can be adopted by the group by creating a new milestone with AD review. > > If MASQUE requires any extensions to existing protocols, the group > will coordinate closely with the respective group responsible for > maintaining that protocol, such as the HTTPBIS, QUIC, or TLS working grou= ps. > > Milestones > > July 2021 MASQUE framework and base protocol to be submitted to the > IESG for publication as PS > Nov 2021 Discovery mechanism for MASQUE servers to be submitted to th= e > IESG for publication as PS > Nov 2021 [Example WG Item] Use Case specific extension to the MASQUE > protocol be submitted to the IESG for publication as EXP or PS > > > > > -- > Masque mailing list > Masque@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/masque > > > --000000000000ce60e1059cfddc37 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Some Q's.=C2=A0 This charter looks to be scoped such t= hat it includes any VPN/tunnel that goes over the QUIC transport, not just = when HTTP/3 is used.=C2=A0 However, it's only scoped to work on use cas= es when multiple applications want to run over a single QUIC connection?
Two thoughts:
1) This seems to put a simple tunn= el over QUIC functionality out of scope?=C2=A0 I've heard a fair bit of= interest in this and I'm not aware of any other group working on it.
2) Some people suggested that multiplexing multiple applications o= ver a single QUIC=C2=A0connection=C2=A0should be in scope for QUIC v2.=C2= =A0 This charter seems like it's moving that work out of the QUIC WG?

Thanks, Ian

On Fri, Jan 24, 2020 at 6:34 PM Mi= rja Kuehlewind <mirja.kuehlewind=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:<= br>
Hi all,

For your information, we've just sent a proposed draft charter text for= MASQUE to the respective mailing list. If you are interested in this work = and would like to comment, please use the MASQUE list. Feedback and communi= ty input is very welcome!

Mirja



=EF=BB=BFOn 25.01.20, 00:29, "Masque on behalf of Mirja Kuehlewind&quo= t; <masque-= bounces@ietf.org on behalf of mirja.kuehlewind=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org<= /a>> wrote:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Hi everybody,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 as already indicated by David in his last mail, some of us wo= rked on a proposed draft charter for a new group. Please find the text belo= w and provide comments!

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thanks!
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Mirja

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ---------------------------------
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 MASQUE draft charter text


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Many network topologies lead to situations where transport pr= otocol proxying is beneficial. For example: helping endpoints to communicat= e when end-to-end connectivity is not possible, applying additional encrypt= ion where desirable (such as a VPN), or accommodating differences in networ= k segment characteristics (e.g. long paths such as satellite, or high-loss = links). Many existing proxy solutions deployed today rely on transparent in= termediation. However, an increasing amount of traffic is using QUIC, and Q= UIC's improved security model prevents transparent proxies. In order to= allow transport protocol proxying when QUIC is in use, we will need a mech= anism where at least one of the QUIC endpoints actively collaborates with t= he proxy. QUIC is a good candidate protocols for tunneling or forwarding th= is kind of traffic, as QUIC provides secure connection establishment, multi= plexed streams, and connection migration. Further, use of HTTP/3 on top of = QUIC enables HTTP-level proxying and caching.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 This working group will work on MASQUE (Multiplexed Applicati= on Substrate over QUIC Encryption) - a framework that allows concurrently r= unning multiple networking applications inside a QUIC connection. The MASQU= E framework will specify the actions and processes for establishing tunnele= d proxy connectivity as well as a signaling protocol that is used between t= he endpoint(s) and the MASQUE server to negotiate and request proxy service= capabilities and parameters, and realize services that require communicati= on between endpoints and proxies. A proxy may provide simple forwarding wit= h optional address translation only, or more advanced services like name re= solution, multipath support, or assistance for congestion control on link s= egments with challenging characteristics, such as high loss or strongly var= ying delays.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 As use-cases for deploying MASQUE have different security or = performance requirements, the working group may define multiple MASQUE serv= ices for proxying to suit these disparate use-cases. In particular, some de= ployments may want to avoid double-encryption to reduce computational costs= if the inner connection as well as the outer QUIC tunnel connection use en= cryption, while others might prefer to keep the double-encryption of user d= ata to sure strong privacy guarantees. Such options will need to produce do= cumentation of the resulting security and privacy properties.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Alongside the definition of the MASQUE framework, the group w= ill further work on discovery mechanisms for MASQUE servers and which MASQU= E services they support, taking into account deployment across network segm= ents with different operability and end-user relationship characteristics.<= br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Proxy services that extend the signaling of the base MASQUE p= rotocol can be adopted by the group by creating a new milestone with AD rev= iew.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 If MASQUE requires any extensions to existing protocols, the = group will coordinate closely with the respective group responsible for mai= ntaining that protocol, such as the HTTPBIS, QUIC, or TLS working groups.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Milestones

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 July 2021 MASQUE framework and base protocol to be submitted = to the IESG for publication as PS
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Nov 2021 Discovery mechanism for MASQUE servers to be submitt= ed to the IESG for publication as PS
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Nov 2021 [Example WG Item] Use Case specific extension to the= MASQUE protocol be submitted to the IESG for publication as EXP or PS




=C2=A0 =C2=A0 --
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Masque mailing list
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Masque@i= etf.org
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mas= que


--000000000000ce60e1059cfddc37-- From nobody Sat Jan 25 23:32:38 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9AC612008F for ; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 23:32:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=RMA/4522; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=VGe7ieVW Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LmIQrWfCmuZk for ; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 23:32:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com (wout2-smtp.messagingengine.com [64.147.123.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 560C912001E for ; Sat, 25 Jan 2020 23:32:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute4.internal (compute4.nyi.internal [10.202.2.44]) by mailout.west.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id C98784C2 for ; Sun, 26 Jan 2020 02:32:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute4.internal (MEProxy); Sun, 26 Jan 2020 02:32:30 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h= content-type:mime-version:from:to:subject:message-id:date; s= fm1; bh=Y6Thl991jz17oyA1lQKLBUwNfA2XHRYgG/IpCftoevY=; b=RMA/4522 IWfK5hKXALm6Fmy8fN1rKn43zJZRBGqCZBdJyKwk1Acp/kKvgZ6BZhKhQUv8IytA ucWYQmk9avRJhijMBfetwgVIV5xtEBz1KfYFxP/qRezu9D++IKBOEP1mVpQuiAZp ehURfqncYIJG0RTc/8T0En0iRmXgPbxWPJZuK/ik4D2bHGTQXFPRNqvHbR6PTxge jIZq/FGS8OGt8bICA8WTGfW6ReNQJn7mxEdz8ZIIhv6Wge2sFUaBP05p65ViCHoM P7FQul4EmJzKAt+37PKg+8j/fmWX48aCVujRB5fjOC6H0cEp4NyjWHPMYi5yHo0L 1yK0QCaJvedHiw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:message-id :mime-version:subject:to:x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender :x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=Y6Thl991jz17oyA1lQKLBUwNfA2XH RYgG/IpCftoevY=; b=VGe7ieVWinvoU2osRcMvD+1O+8o5GeYiF/3Jfuubxr61x mWzpUGnzgToe7UzWGCtaQNpC+hKFpY0Kvrl0QxeNcwiGLszKgN/XyFLe63gjMHot qiPVDgIXXWfN8b3WeMXJlGlwt3sDVplO3N+q4F4uyW+zbPxquZPd060HNnTWc5CH dKrKrtwZQHCDAOVl4HDUcRh13Q05tuBo9nYAYrv7Mo8N6D3K0+Sm5S1NI2Eu6IJD x7ocbg95iwhJXunqEvG0VElNynlY+jJ7DcsMNm38E0GFjl0gt2V/hYizkRNlxFXJ f5qhjaIuiClnB24ULagca/frnBlAEBBJYhv31kZJw== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedugedrvdelgdduhecutefuodetggdotefrodftvf curfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfghnecu uegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurheptggghffvufesrgdttdertddtjeenuc fhrhhomheptfgvphhoshhithhorhihucettghtihhvihhthicuufhumhhmrghrhicuueho thcuoeguohgpnhhothgprhgvphhlhiesmhhnohhtrdhnvghtqeenucffohhmrghinhepgh hithhhuhgsrdgtohhmnecukfhppeehvddrudekgedrudeljedrgeenucevlhhushhtvghr ufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpeguohgpnhhothgprhgvphhlhi esmhhnohhtrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: from [10.1.0.4] (unknown [52.184.197.4]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 1000F328005D for ; Sun, 26 Jan 2020 02:32:30 -0500 (EST) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="===============3004568412217368806==" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Repository Activity Summary Bot To: quic@ietf.org Subject: Weekly github digest (QUIC Activity Summary) Message-Id: <20200126073230.1000F328005D@mailuser.nyi.internal> Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2020 02:32:30 -0500 (EST) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2020 07:32:37 -0000 --===============3004568412217368806== MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format="flowed" Events without label "editorial" Issues ------ * quicwg/base-drafts (+5/-3/=F0=9F=92=AC14) 5 issues created: - Discarding Initial context too soon leads to deadlock (by huitema) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3395=20 - recovery: initial reordering threshold (by mirjak) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3389=20 - Clarify CANCEL_PUSH server send conditions (by BrianGithubber) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3387=20 - "Between when" is an awkward wording (by dtikhonov) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3378=20 - More strongly recommend ECN marking (by martinthomson) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3373 [-transport]=20 8 issues received 14 new comments: - #3395 Discarding Initial context too soon leads to deadlock (4 by huite= ma, ianswett) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3395=20 - #3389 recovery: initial reordering threshold (1 by ianswett) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3389 [-recovery]=20 - #3387 Clarify CANCEL_PUSH server send conditions (1 by LPardue) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3387=20 - #3366 Retry integrity protection should not add new requirements to TLS= API (2 by janaiyengar, kazuho) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3366 [-tls]=20 - #3363 max_ack_delay should be in us, not ms (2 by ianswett, mnot) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3363 [-transport]=20 - #3350 Ignoring ACK delay can result in wrong RTT calculations (2 by mar= tinthomson, mirjak) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3350 [-recovery]=20 - #3094 congestion window increase on every ACKed packet could result in = bursty sends (1 by tfpauly) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3094 [-recovery] [design] = - #2125 Document what needs to be checked for address validation (1 by ma= rtinthomson) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/2125 [-transport]=20 3 issues closed: - max_ack_delay should be in us, not ms https://github.com/quicwg/base-dr= afts/issues/3363 [-transport]=20 - Grease HTTP/3 error codes https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/= 3325 [-http]=20 - Retry integrity protection should not add new requirements to TLS API h= ttps://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3366 [-tls]=20 Pull requests ------------- * quicwg/base-drafts (+16/-1/=F0=9F=92=AC12) 16 pull requests submitted: - Normative language for PTO (by mirjak) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3393=20 - Small clarification and one nit (recovery) (by mirjak) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3392=20 - Remove pointer to appendix in PTO section (recover) (by mirjak) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3391=20 - Clarify when timer should be set (by mirjak) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3390=20 - editorial: value for kGranularity (recovery) (by mirjak) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3388=20 - Add HANDSHAKE_DONE to list of frames ineligible for 0-RTT (by dtikhonov) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3386=20 - nit: brackets for section reference (recovery) (by mirjak) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3385=20 - editorial: simplify pseudo code (recovery) (by mirjak) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3384=20 - editorial: This sentence was hard to parse for me (recovery) (by mirjak) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3383=20 - editorial: split long sentence (recovery) (by mirjak) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3382=20 - editorial: Remove ACK-only (by mirjak) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3381=20 - Editorial: More concise intro text (by mirjak) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3380=20 - Fix two instances of "between when" in the transport draft (by dtikhono= v) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3379=20 - Fix sentence describing the Packets column in Table 3 (by dtikhonov) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3377=20 - Drop unnecessary indefinite article (by dtikhonov) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3376=20 - Improve readility of a sentence in the transport draft (by dtikhonov) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3375=20 6 pull requests received 12 new comments: - #3392 Small clarification and one nit (recovery) (1 by LPardue) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3392=20 - #3388 editorial: value for kGranularity (recovery) (6 by martinthomson,= mirjak) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3388 [-recovery]=20 - #3381 editorial: Remove ACK-only (recovery) (2 by MikeBishop, mirjak) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3381=20 - #3371 Fix section references to DPLPMTUD (1 by martinthomson) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3371 [-transport]=20 - #3370 Changelogs for draft-25 (1 by MikeBishop) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3370=20 - #3337 Add note that middleboxes might change datagram boundaries (1 by = martinthomson) https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3337 [-transport]=20 1 pull requests merged: - Fix section references to DPLPMTUD https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3371 [-transport]=20 Repositories tracked by this digest: ----------------------------------- * https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts --===============3004568412217368806== Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Weekly github digest (QUIC Activity Summary)

Sunday January 26, 2020

Events without label "editorial"

Issues

quicwg/base-drafts (+5/-3/=F0=9F=92=AC14)

5 issues created:

8 issues received 14 new comments:

3 issues closed:

Pull requests

quicwg/base-drafts (+16/-1/=F0=9F=92=AC12)

16 pull requests submitted:

6 pull requests received 12 new comments:

1 pull requests merged:

Repositories tracked by this digest:

--===============3004568412217368806==-- From nobody Sun Jan 26 11:38:10 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E12112007A; Sun, 26 Jan 2020 11:38:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.748 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.748 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AeziCJCxSQaF; Sun, 26 Jan 2020 11:38:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vs1-xe29.google.com (mail-vs1-xe29.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6839B120043; Sun, 26 Jan 2020 11:38:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-vs1-xe29.google.com with SMTP id e188so4176842vse.3; Sun, 26 Jan 2020 11:38:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=UL966HYR0PqXI2jaqkmyPXK7+GPDAG/8nR7WnThIcrY=; b=GoFaXnE/TgJO4KaHK5pQF7AALxwHoSicIcfY/pfdcXHdxQPixTe9RBgeJd1IKqjsnx 4DPc65Y41AqpeK+zAekj3gXpQ6zjEVAgontmcKFdJQ+2WiQpO74WByOK2nNhBHYkTH0g tscu/p0/YklVurRSxtDPSBAD3z0u69r7FbLt8zvcRSReQxW9+a9IrTud7Ib4VO7tIL9z FAyvg++hZVEA+Vk9kozxctCuI/alGrSBk8qq4Zj4nasCmzCAKU55GkYiJh3ReHaJj5e/ d3k1+hVbGmOcpQGT2ISgsbe0dwZmEocSF0edF6A4ijsty1vb6c5yCs5nlXG//YVyM8Y3 JEVQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=UL966HYR0PqXI2jaqkmyPXK7+GPDAG/8nR7WnThIcrY=; b=qdPxjdzhY7jrB065tFzj5wIJflpjgDwNMENc61N6i6AZblbbcD6THDmfQAT01p/r96 bzDrWPksBLfkOLrEWqRAK8Py9UQ4HL+PCBGsIeWnRCaYIljvbYhq0hTN6VUpz5JymOR9 8+WruP28AxhY6LX/dWiygaln9mbpbEISdCv68pMyGcPcOtfTOOaklUyzkJu4fSkQDYXI lnjML3Mzb1jFCeW4dnlDr5wZ5eeOh7aZtD665pwZ+g/c1M8omLzCaHCuI8qf6x6E9HJh 8zxFwHa3XKAL42D7NZVYsEJCK4d36pS2ZG7wrcUGM6uMsVXJ9NTCbuWU7pcapMqz6ffA e6Fg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUv0aTKNDNeYjQBQ/OtQJuFy6aidPmH/yFIjtwDe38fRCXGj2ii ADgK9sC4tagSjj9wciX6h5DD5LBD4l3RUBp38TU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzzVwLa3z1aQUpNlFuD0vGypHjx3tItlmzEqXl8+JBZjFf22lGSBVR4mzkSQLkk70qZUjKRUm+H3ZV0UlI+XI8= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6102:30a7:: with SMTP id y7mr7954985vsd.212.1580067485528; Sun, 26 Jan 2020 11:38:05 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Lucas Pardue Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2020 19:37:50 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: FW: [Masque] Proposed draft charter To: Ian Swett Cc: Mirja Kuehlewind , David Schinazi , "quic@ietf.org" , tsvwg Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000323746059d1021c8" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2020 19:38:08 -0000 --000000000000323746059d1021c8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hey Ian, On Sat, Jan 25, 2020 at 9:50 PM Ian Swett wrote: > Some Q's. This charter looks to be scoped such that it includes any > VPN/tunnel that goes over the QUIC transport, not just when HTTP/3 is > used. However, it's only scoped to work on use cases when multiple > applications want to run over a single QUIC connection? > > Two thoughts: > 1) This seems to put a simple tunnel over QUIC functionality out of > scope? I've heard a fair bit of interest in this and I'm not aware of any > other group working on it. > I don't believe the intent is to support only multiple applications, multiplexing with a cardinality of 1 should be supported IMO. Streams allow for many, but I think there would also be support for a DATAGRAM-only tunnel relationship that allows only a simple 1:1 mapping (discovered up-front and negotiated in the QUIC connection). 2) Some people suggested that multiplexing multiple applications over a > single QUIC connection should be in scope for QUIC v2. This charter seems > like it's moving that work out of the QUIC WG? > I'm not aware of that, it would be good to figure these kinds of things out to avoid duplication or overlap where possible. Cheers, Lucas --000000000000323746059d1021c8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hey Ian,

<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">
On Sat, Jan= 25, 2020 at 9:50 PM Ian Swett <ianswett=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
Some Q's.= =C2=A0 This charter looks to be scoped such that it includes any VPN/tunnel= that goes over the QUIC transport, not just when HTTP/3 is used.=C2=A0 How= ever, it's only scoped to work on use cases when multiple applications = want to run over a single QUIC connection?

Two thoughts:=
1) This seems to put a simple tunnel over QUIC functionality out= of scope?=C2=A0 I've heard a fair bit of interest in this and I'm = not aware of any other group working on it.
I don't believe the intent is to support only multiple app= lications, multiplexing with a cardinality of 1 should be supported IMO.=20 Streams allow for many, but I think there would also be support for a=C2=A0= DATAGRAM-only tunnel relationship=C2=A0that allows only a simple 1:1 mappin= g (discovered up-front and negotiated in the QUIC connection).
=
2) Some people suggested that multiplexing multiple applications over = a single QUIC=C2=A0connection=C2=A0should be in scope for QUIC v2.=C2=A0 Th= is charter seems like it's moving that work out of the QUIC WG?
=C2=A0
I'm not aware of that, it would = be good to figure these kinds of things out to avoid duplication or overlap= where possible.

Cheers,
Lucas
=
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charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable WG, Below you will find the draft charter text proposed by ADs and WG chairs. I intended to have the IESG agree to send this out for External Review at the= next IESG meeting (2020-02-06). So if you have any comments and proposal for cha= nges now is a good time.=20 Below is a copy of the current draft in the datatracker: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-quic/ Diff:=20 https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdo= c%2Fcharter-ietf-quic%2Fwithmilestones-01.txt&url2=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatatrac= ker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-quic%2Fwithmilestones-01-00.txt QUIC WG Draft Charter (01-00) The QUIC working group will provide standards-track specifications for a UDP- based, stream-multiplexing, encrypted transport protocol, based on pre- standardization implementation and deployment experience. Key goals for QUIC are: - Minimizing connection establishment and overall transport latency for applications, starting with HTTP/2; - Providing multiplexing without head-of-line blocking; - Requiring only changes to path endpoints to enable deployment; - Enabling multipath and forward error correction extensions; a= nd - Providing always-secure transport, using TLS 1.3 by default. The work of the group will have five main focus areas, corresponding to fiv= e core deliverables. The first of these is the core transport work, which will describe the wire format, along with the mechanisms for connection establishment, stream multiplexing, data reliability, loss detection and recovery, congestion control, and options negotiation. Work on congestion control will describe = use of a standardized congestion controller as a default scheme for QUIC. Defin= ing new congestion control schemes is explicitly out of scope for this group. Q= UIC is expected to support rapid, distributed development and testing of featur= es. The second of these focus areas is security. This work will describe how th= e protocol uses TLS 1.3 for key negotiation and will also describe how those = keys are used to provide confidentiality and integrity protection of both application data and QUIC headers. This work will ensure that QUIC has secu= rity and privacy properties that are at least as good as a stack composed of TLS= 1.3 using TCP (or MPTCP when using multipath). The third focus area will describe mappings between specific application protocols and the transport facilities of QUIC. The first mapping will be a description of HTTP/2 semantics using QUIC, specifically with the goal of minimizing web latency using QUIC. This mapping will accommodate the extens= ion mechanisms defined in the HTTP/2 specification. Upon completion of that mapping, additional protocols may be added by updating this charter to incl= ude them, or working elsewhere. The fourth focus area will be on extensions to core protocol facilities, to enable datagram delivery, version negotiation, and multipath capabilities. Other extensions are out of the scope of this charter. The fifth focus area will provide an Applicability and Manageability Statem= ent, describing how, and under what circumstances, QUIC may be safely used, and describing deployment and manageability implications of the protocol. Additionally, the Working Group will delivery a mechanism to assist load balancers in their handling of QUIC. Current practices for network management of transport protocols include the ability to apply access control lists (ACLs), hashing of flows for equal-co= st multipath routing (ECMP), directional signaling of flows, signaling of flow setup and teardown, and the ability to export information about flows for accounting purposes. The QUIC protocol need not be defined to enable each o= f these abilities, or enable them in the same way as they are enabled by TCP = when used with TLS 1.3, but the working group must consider the impact of the protocol on network management practices, reflecting the tensions described= in RFC 7258. Note that consensus is required both for changes to the current protocol mechanisms and retention of current mechanisms. In particular, because something is in the initial document set does not imply that there is conse= nsus around the feature or around how it is specified. The QUIC working group will work closely with the HTTPbis working group, especially on the QUIC mapping for HTTP/2. --=20 Cheers Magnus Westerlund=20 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Networks, Ericsson Research ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Torshamnsgatan 23 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --=-QfwfWyxvMq79mSmz8VVY Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADCABgkqhkiG9w0BBwEAAKCCEtww ggYHMIID76ADAgECAhALRm3NcHtuMGWutmt5cXntMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBCwUAMEcxCzAJBgNVBAYT AlNFMREwDwYDVQQKDAhFcmljc3NvbjElMCMGA1UEAwwcRXJpY3Nzb24gTkwgSW5kaXZpZHVhbCBD 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[47.22.54.182]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q7sm9537745qkc.43.2020.01.27.05.15.17 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 27 Jan 2020 05:15:17 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2020 08:54:12 -0500 From: Dmitri Tikhonov To: Ian Swett Cc: Christian Huitema , Marten Seemann , IETF QUIC WG Subject: Re: Alternative ways to keeps ODCID on the server Message-ID: <20200125135411.GA19655@ubuntu-dmitri> Mail-Followup-To: Ian Swett , Christian Huitema , Marten Seemann , IETF QUIC WG References: <20200124222434.GA8279@ubuntu-dmitri> <7b228c14-c0d3-6458-77ab-945e713ef429@huitema.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2020 13:15:20 -0000 After considering this for a few days, I now think that the "server MAY proceed" part should be removed from the draft. This is because it is impossible to get ODCID from an invalid Retry token. There is no other way reliably to associate an incoming packet with a previous packet (if the server were willing to stored ODCIDs in memory somewhere). Specifying that the server MAY proceed only makes the issue more confusing. - Dmitri. On Sat, Jan 25, 2020 at 04:36:51PM -0500, Ian Swett wrote: > This is a bit of an edge case, so spelling out what's required to proceed > seems reasonable to me. > > On Sat, Jan 25, 2020 at 12:11 AM Christian Huitema > wrote: > > > > > On 1/24/2020 8:41 PM, Marten Seemann wrote: > > > > Then it's not a *Retry* token, then it's a NEW_TOKEN token. > > It's a kind of subtle distinction (as I noted in > > https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3107#discussion_r349859380). > > > > > > I understand that they are different. But look at the text in draft-25: > > > > If a server receives a client Initial that can be unprotected but > > contains an invalid Retry token, it knows the client will not accept > > another Retry token. The server can discard such a packet and allow > > the client to time out to detect handshake failure, but that could > > impose a significant latency penalty on the client. A server MAY > > proceed with the connection without verifying the token, though the > > server MUST NOT consider the client address validated. If a server > > chooses not to proceed with the handshake, it SHOULD immediately > > close (Section 10.3 ) the connection with an INVALID_TOKEN error. > > Note that a server has not established any state for the connection > > at this point and so does not enter the closing period. > > > > Invalid is invalid. An invalid token is something that the server cannot parse. > > The server does not know whether the client got the token from a retry packet > > or a new token frame, or just made it up with random bytes. > > > > -- Christian Huitema > > > > From nobody Mon Jan 27 05:50:59 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62D5312004E for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2020 05:50:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=litespeedtech-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yG6dhw8jyoiu for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2020 05:50:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt1-x833.google.com (mail-qt1-x833.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::833]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6594612002E for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2020 05:50:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt1-x833.google.com with SMTP id j5so7363808qtq.9 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2020 05:50:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=litespeedtech-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:mail-followup-to:references :mime-version:content-disposition:in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=lc1n2DqJHsLN6eSLBkTjM2E2MzoLGWcLUEmGax33hUo=; b=UbIlDJBjEQKUu++MbeQZyRKKvDBSVUCIEemipa8giVS7lojPIkMJoKUsTz6TRpggm+ /EFASH5uE+lynqOjDtUOh4oMB04gSR2sjyL8pFoDBVv5KEIxDVTXw+6bpxCcpmK6STxP 6VwGJLraS0cgpgGUNe/9jbJsy7lmf2YToRcm5igizlCGv/H+MYVjayyTpOhalLdZXPC+ O0+ALAGibEbtfZwop/BeYu+0rbgEKJVUGjzZxHiTI+j0iX1xyYldDu+LL+sdMKs77kvl pue3dQ0bEU4DKwyUgggm7TROcWOx9bC6JTWVZlKK62yACesgiUtxXzs0mIs2KsKjuVLe AZXA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id :mail-followup-to:references:mime-version:content-disposition :in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=lc1n2DqJHsLN6eSLBkTjM2E2MzoLGWcLUEmGax33hUo=; b=q8YsIUzXYNGkrry4OfN39emLDkudmwldGhfUuQKE61CnK/0P08GPFHKZr3v1NjFeiL zSn0EvHGtQTAxa+o4mfV9vECqfY9U1HDi1OUsvQWfG4jlowICYl3CbzMikSBbl3BrDb8 1BZlSrV0HlJR+kCf4DuHvmo7ARpecNDHDl3pAbpi/EKBW6JrHcRJTvCbZr72VTZ5OgdF mX6B67j7eILhukrmo5BavFNHxn2MuPuNysvUBwqDBmBAzBbNP4M5A8hT/G3NQ1u9cCCB OpW0tBycLz1UBAjgEkLeFzd5+Zuu0ArPHT/EeBNkgUwR6CFduynqMlCaW5lsTgGi2r85 8BcA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXUwVFwh0356bOasPMjonuMfGacOloXyUhGc+RvyB2TYztTApyY NHmQSANqSnlnLhF9WjaZ0p8LnQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyeLLTR4y5r3K+IqzP1cYvq8VS/A6pk1QuGrQGWg15cRtPKVtOLXJa5mqYsYQ/MXQYWZXy91w== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:7158:: with SMTP id h24mr15591402qtp.63.1580133055535; Mon, 27 Jan 2020 05:50:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from ubuntu-dmitri (ool-2f1636b6.static.optonline.net. [47.22.54.182]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r10sm9372013qkm.23.2020.01.27.05.50.55 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 27 Jan 2020 05:50:55 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2020 08:50:53 -0500 From: Dmitri Tikhonov To: Jana Iyengar Cc: QUIC WG , Ian Swett Subject: Re: Proposed extension for delayed acknowledgments Message-ID: <20200127135053.GB19655@ubuntu-dmitri> Mail-Followup-To: Jana Iyengar , QUIC WG , Ian Swett References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2020 13:50:58 -0000 I'll commit to implementing this by the Interop next week if at least one other implementation does so as well. Takers? (And let's pick the TP ID.) - Dmitri. On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 01:50:59PM -0800, Jana Iyengar wrote: > Hi all, > > Ian and I have proposed an extension to enable sender-side control of > acknowledgement frequency: draft-iyengar-quic-delayed-ack-00 > . > > The problem this extension solves was originally discussed in #1978 > , where we agreed that > this might be best done in an extension. The desire to reduce the frequency > of acknowledgements was more recently brought up and discussed in #3304 > , where it seemed clear > that there was interest in working on this now. This proposed extension is > a result. > > This is an individual draft. Please feel free to use the following github > repo, which is NOT the working group's repo, for filing issues and > discussion pertaining to the draft: > https://github.com/janaiyengar/ack-frequency > > - jana From nobody Mon Jan 27 06:07:48 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50FAB12004F for ; Mon, 27 Jan 2020 06:07:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=ericsson.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id axtvNVwFnvBv for ; 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charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, Due to the reshuffeling it may be hard to see exactly what is changing. So = to clarify in text what is being changed.=20 The big change is to allow work on three "extension": Version Negotiation, datagram (these two are listed under fourth focus area) and how to better support load balancers (fifth focus area).=20 Otherwise the changes are: - removal of the initial input drafts to base the work on in first paragrap= h. - Reshuffling of the paragraphs, the one "current practices for network management ..." is moved down.=20 - Removal of pragaraph regarding interim during first year.=20 - Removal of stand alone paragraph preventing extension work. The no other extensions is now baked into paragraph on fourth focus area.=20 - Clarification that mapping work may also be done outside of QUIC WG.=20 Cheers Magnus Westerlund On Mon, 2020-01-27 at 12:22 +0000, Magnus Westerlund wrote: > WG, >=20 > Below you will find the draft charter text proposed by ADs and WG chairs.= I > intended to have the IESG agree to send this out for External Review at t= he > next > IESG meeting (2020-02-06). So if you have any comments and proposal for > changes > now is a good time.=20 >=20 > Below is a copy of the current draft in the datatracker: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-quic/ >=20 > Diff:=20 >=20 https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdo= c%2Fcharter-ietf-quic%2Fwithmilestones-01.txt&url2=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatatrac= ker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-quic%2Fwithmilestones-01-00.txt >=20 > QUIC WG Draft Charter (01-00) >=20 > The QUIC working group will provide standards-track specifications for a > UDP- > based, stream-multiplexing, encrypted transport protocol, based on > pre- > standardization implementation and deployment experience. >=20 > Key goals for QUIC are: >=20 > - Minimizing connection establishment and overall transport latency for > applications, starting with HTTP/2; - Providing multiplexing without > head-of-line blocking; - Requiring only changes to path endpoints to enab= le > deployment; - Enabling multipath and forward error correction extensions;= and > - > Providing always-secure transport, using TLS 1.3 by default. >=20 > The work of the group will have five main focus areas, corresponding to f= ive > core deliverables. >=20 > The first of these is the core transport work, which will describe the wi= re > format, along with the mechanisms for connection establishment, stream > multiplexing, data reliability, loss detection and recovery, congestion > control, and options negotiation. Work on congestion control will describ= e use > of a standardized congestion controller as a default scheme for QUIC. Def= ining > new congestion control schemes is explicitly out of scope for this group.= QUIC > is expected to support rapid, distributed development and testing of feat= ures. >=20 > The second of these focus areas is security. This work will describe how = the > protocol uses TLS 1.3 for key negotiation and will also describe how thos= e > keys > are used to provide confidentiality and integrity protection of both > application data and QUIC headers. This work will ensure that QUIC has > security > and privacy properties that are at least as good as a stack composed of T= LS > 1.3 > using TCP (or MPTCP when using multipath). >=20 > The third focus area will describe mappings between specific application > protocols and the transport facilities of QUIC. The first mapping will be= a > description of HTTP/2 semantics using QUIC, specifically with the goal of > minimizing web latency using QUIC. This mapping will accommodate the exte= nsion > mechanisms defined in the HTTP/2 specification. Upon completion of that > mapping, additional protocols may be added by updating this charter to in= clude > them, or working elsewhere. >=20 > The fourth focus area will be on extensions to core protocol facilities, = to > enable datagram delivery, version negotiation, and multipath capabilities= . > Other extensions are out of the scope of this charter. >=20 > The fifth focus area will provide an Applicability and Manageability > Statement, > describing how, and under what circumstances, QUIC may be safely used, an= d > describing deployment and manageability implications of the protocol. > Additionally, the Working Group will delivery a mechanism to assist load > balancers in their handling of QUIC. >=20 > Current practices for network management of transport protocols include t= he > ability to apply access control lists (ACLs), hashing of flows for equal-= cost > multipath routing (ECMP), directional signaling of flows, signaling of fl= ow > setup and teardown, and the ability to export information about flows for > accounting purposes. The QUIC protocol need not be defined to enable each= of > these abilities, or enable them in the same way as they are enabled by TC= P > when > used with TLS 1.3, but the working group must consider the impact of the > protocol on network management practices, reflecting the tensions describ= ed in > RFC 7258. >=20 > Note that consensus is required both for changes to the current protocol > mechanisms and retention of current mechanisms. In particular, because > something is in the initial document set does not imply that there is > consensus > around the feature or around how it is specified. >=20 > The QUIC working group will work closely with the HTTPbis working group, > especially on the QUIC mapping for HTTP/2. >=20 --=20 Cheers Magnus Westerlund=20 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Networks, Ericsson Research ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Torshamnsgatan 23 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --=-m0WwYlCru84YRjqsz6Lm Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADCABgkqhkiG9w0BBwEAAKCCEtww 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a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=p0fMawdbvGOaPH5cqy8jMUWEPFHmwoetnT1i9u7owVA=; b=mI5HEjVQk8q/WZdVWY1Lgx+6kz63HB7KcrBKCaeSkLzXYxmpphEke0BKTdK4zbgdAA II6Vv0iGWUBez0NjA/71ZLH+cfHIrS20LwWCoWEXBbAJ8RLRgomCHH5y4UrKo9osFG0J ww2my0TEPmLTsn5ssjypGOlvMaWyG9ppUjVtPr4HVRuhJ8Lzx9bwkJv1v2NKhlhP4toN gYI0W0MElguV6WFw44+C+WhsPZMYHhluL6PDlwG4Q3Ko6S/plOS7OrMI/Jq2zf1xbtAn W7d/1sfQunixpECNkUSpeNR9+ZE3WkY9Eja78/23aCGii5kKtCp4EjesvLfeMoRoGFxX PR8A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=p0fMawdbvGOaPH5cqy8jMUWEPFHmwoetnT1i9u7owVA=; b=r56Sd1xdpEDonhoZA3ngKhbb7r2+2Kbz1md1oc63LqInhEgPBgrXD6fedYl3P1Hf4Z 393XFYReBv6dfaTTQMZqvI2B509+PPOpmwMrfrxeE5yivLxOvPJfS769YaaeVmTDLnE2 +v689mYPGLT9LElKoWmknu8558zkfdvO8+Zh9kn/buyowhqkVLm5iHn8CYVBdySd6wLC 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X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Jan 2020 14:24:52 -0000 --0000000000008ab9e7059d1fdeaa Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Thanks for the update. The original charter mentions HTTP/2 multiple times, but except for when it's in reference to extensions, I think it would be preferable to use HTTP instead of HTTP/2. For example, "The first mapping will be a description of HTTP/2 semantics using QUIC," and "especially on the QUIC mapping for HTTP/2" are quite odd now that HTTP/3 is it's own thing which shares very little with HTTP/2. And two small comments below. Ian On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 9:07 AM Magnus Westerlund wrote: > Hi, > > Due to the reshuffeling it may be hard to see exactly what is changing. So > to > clarify in text what is being changed. > > The big change is to allow work on three "extension": Version Negotiation, > datagram (these two are listed under fourth focus area) and how to better > support load balancers (fifth focus area). > > Otherwise the changes are: > - removal of the initial input drafts to base the work on in first > paragraph. > - Reshuffling of the paragraphs, the one "current practices for network > management ..." is moved down. > - Removal of pragaraph regarding interim during first year. > - Removal of stand alone paragraph preventing extension work. The no other > extensions is now baked into paragraph on fourth focus area. > - Clarification that mapping work may also be done outside of QUIC WG. > > Cheers > > Magnus Westerlund > > On Mon, 2020-01-27 at 12:22 +0000, Magnus Westerlund wrote: > > WG, > > > > Below you will find the draft charter text proposed by ADs and WG > chairs. I > > intended to have the IESG agree to send this out for External Review at > the > > next > > IESG meeting (2020-02-06). So if you have any comments and proposal for > > changes > > now is a good time. > > > > Below is a copy of the current draft in the datatracker: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-quic/ > > > > Diff: > > > > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-quic%2Fwithmilestones-01.txt&url2=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-quic%2Fwithmilestones-01-00.txt > > > > QUIC WG Draft Charter (01-00) > > > > The QUIC working group will provide standards-track specifications for a > > UDP- > > based, stream-multiplexing, encrypted transport protocol, based on > > pre- > > standardization implementation and deployment experience. > > > > Key goals for QUIC are: > > > > - Minimizing connection establishment and overall transport latency for > > applications, starting with HTTP/2; - Providing multiplexing without > > head-of-line blocking; - Requiring only changes to path endpoints to > enable > > deployment; - Enabling multipath and forward error correction > extensions; and > > - > > Providing always-secure transport, using TLS 1.3 by default. > > > > The work of the group will have five main focus areas, corresponding to > five > > core deliverables. > > > > The first of these is the core transport work, which will describe the > wire > > format, along with the mechanisms for connection establishment, stream > > multiplexing, data reliability, loss detection and recovery, congestion > > control, and options negotiation. Work on congestion control will > describe use > > of a standardized congestion controller as a default scheme for QUIC. > Defining > > new congestion control schemes is explicitly out of scope for this > group. QUIC > > is expected to support rapid, distributed development and testing of > features. > > > > The second of these focus areas is security. This work will describe how > the > > protocol uses TLS 1.3 for key negotiation and will also describe how > those > > keys > > are used to provide confidentiality and integrity protection of both > > application data and QUIC headers. This work will ensure that QUIC has > > security > > and privacy properties that are at least as good as a stack composed of > TLS > > 1.3 > > using TCP (or MPTCP when using multipath). > > > > The third focus area will describe mappings between specific application > > protocols and the transport facilities of QUIC. The first mapping will > be a > > description of HTTP/2 semantics using QUIC, specifically with the goal of > > minimizing web latency using QUIC. This mapping will accommodate the > extension > > mechanisms defined in the HTTP/2 specification. Upon completion of that > > mapping, additional protocols may be added by updating this charter to > include > > them, or working elsewhere. > > > > The fourth focus area will be on extensions to core protocol facilities, > to > > enable datagram delivery, version negotiation, and multipath > capabilities.. > > Other extensions are out of the scope of this charter. > > > > The fifth focus area will provide an Applicability and Manageability > > Statement, > > describing how, and under what circumstances, QUIC may be safely used, > and > > describing deployment and manageability implications of the protocol. > > Additionally, the Working Group will delivery a mechanism to assist load > > balancers in their handling of QUIC. > delivery -> deliver > > > > Current practices for network management of transport protocols include > the > > ability to apply access control lists (ACLs), hashing of flows for > equal-cost > > multipath routing (ECMP), directional signaling of flows, signaling of > flow > > setup and teardown, and the ability to export information about flows for > > accounting purposes. The QUIC protocol need not be defined to enable > each of > > these abilities, or enable them in the same way as they are enabled by > TCP > > when > > used with TLS 1.3, but the working group must consider the impact of the > > protocol on network management practices, reflecting the tensions > described in > > RFC 7258. > > > > Note that consensus is required both for changes to the current protocol > > mechanisms and retention of current mechanisms. In particular, because > > something is in the initial document set does not imply that there is > > consensus > > around the feature or around how it is specified. > I think the above paragraph should now be removed. > > > > The QUIC working group will work closely with the HTTPbis working group, > > especially on the QUIC mapping for HTTP/2. > > > -- > Cheers > > Magnus Westerlund > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Networks, Ericsson Research > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 > <+46%2010%20714%2082%2087> > Torshamnsgatan 23 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 > <+46%2073%20094%2090%2079> > SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > --0000000000008ab9e7059d1fdeaa Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for the update.=C2=A0 The original charter men= tions HTTP/2 multiple times, but except for when it's in reference to e= xtensions, I think it would be preferable to use HTTP instead of HTTP/2.=C2= =A0 For example, "The first mapping will be a
description of= HTTP/2 semantics using QUIC," and=C2=A0 "especially on the QUIC = mapping for HTTP/2" are quite odd now that HTTP/3 is it's own thin= g which shares very little with HTTP/2.

And two sm= all comments below.

Ian

On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 9:0= 7 AM Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
=
Hi,

Due to the reshuffeling it may be hard to see exactly what is changing. So = to
clarify in text what is being changed.

The big change is to allow work on three "extension": Version Neg= otiation,
datagram (these two are listed under fourth focus area) and how to better support load balancers (fifth focus area).

Otherwise the changes are:
- removal of the initial input drafts to base the work on in first paragrap= h.
- Reshuffling of the paragraphs, the one "current practices for networ= k
management ..." is moved down.
- Removal of pragaraph regarding interim during first year.
- Removal of stand alone paragraph preventing extension work. The no other<= br> extensions is now baked into paragraph on fourth focus area.
- Clarification that mapping work may also be done outside of QUIC WG.

Cheers

Magnus Westerlund

On Mon, 2020-01-27 at 12:22 +0000, Magnus Westerlund wrote:
> WG,
>
> Below you will find the draft charter text proposed by ADs and WG chai= rs. I
> intended to have the IESG agree to send this out for External Review a= t the
> next
> IESG meeting (2020-02-06). So if you have any comments and proposal fo= r
> changes
> now is a good time.
>
> Below is a copy of the current draft in the datatracker:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-iet= f-quic/
>
> Diff:
>
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?ur= l1=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-quic%2Fwithmil= estones-01.txt&url2=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharte= r-ietf-quic%2Fwithmilestones-01-00.txt
>
> QUIC WG Draft Charter (01-00)
>
> The QUIC working group will provide standards-track specifications for= a
> UDP-
> based, stream-multiplexing, encrypted transport protocol, based on
> pre-
> standardization implementation and deployment experience.
>
> Key goals for QUIC are:
>
> - Minimizing connection establishment and overall transport latency fo= r
> applications, starting with HTTP/2; - Providing multiplexing without > head-of-line blocking; - Requiring only changes to path endpoints to e= nable
> deployment; - Enabling multipath and forward error correction extensio= ns; and
> -
> Providing always-secure transport, using TLS 1.3 by default.
>
> The work of the group will have five main focus areas, corresponding t= o five
> core deliverables.
>
> The first of these is the core transport work, which will describe the= wire
> format, along with the mechanisms for connection establishment, stream=
> multiplexing, data reliability, loss detection and recovery, congestio= n
> control, and options negotiation. Work on congestion control will desc= ribe use
> of a standardized congestion controller as a default scheme for QUIC. = Defining
> new congestion control schemes is explicitly out of scope for this gro= up. QUIC
> is expected to support rapid, distributed development and testing of f= eatures.
>
> The second of these focus areas is security. This work will describe h= ow the
> protocol uses TLS 1.3 for key negotiation and will also describe how t= hose
> keys
> are used to provide confidentiality and integrity protection of both > application data and QUIC headers. This work will ensure that QUIC has=
> security
> and privacy properties that are at least as good as a stack composed o= f TLS
> 1.3
> using TCP (or MPTCP when using multipath).
>
> The third focus area will describe mappings between specific applicati= on
> protocols and the transport facilities of QUIC. The first mapping will= be a
> description of HTTP/2 semantics using QUIC, specifically with the goal= of
> minimizing web latency using QUIC. This mapping will accommodate the e= xtension
> mechanisms defined in the HTTP/2 specification. Upon completion of tha= t
> mapping, additional protocols may be added by updating this charter to= include
> them, or working elsewhere.
>
> The fourth focus area will be on extensions to core protocol facilitie= s, to
> enable datagram delivery, version negotiation, and multipath capabilit= ies..
> Other extensions are out of the scope of this charter.
>
> The fifth focus area will provide an Applicability and Manageability > Statement,
> describing how, and under what circumstances, QUIC may be safely used,= and
> describing deployment and manageability implications of the protocol.<= br> > Additionally, the Working Group will delivery a mechanism to assist lo= ad
> balancers in their handling of QUIC.

delivery -> deliver=C2=A0
>
> Current practices for network management of transport protocols includ= e the
> ability to apply access control lists (ACLs), hashing of flows for equ= al-cost
> multipath routing (ECMP), directional signaling of flows, signaling of= flow
> setup and teardown, and the ability to export information about flows = for
> accounting purposes. The QUIC protocol need not be defined to enable e= ach of
> these abilities, or enable them in the same way as they are enabled by= TCP
> when
> used with TLS 1.3, but the working group must consider the impact of t= he
> protocol on network management practices, reflecting the tensions desc= ribed in
> RFC 7258.
>
> Note that consensus is required both for changes to the current protoc= ol
> mechanisms and retention of current mechanisms. In particular, because=
> something is in the initial document set does not imply that there is<= br> > consensus
> around the feature or around how it is specified.

I think the above paragraph should now be removed.
=C2=A0
>
> The QUIC working group will work closely with the HTTPbis working grou= p,
> especially on the QUIC mapping for HTTP/2.
>
--
Cheers

Magnus Westerlund


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Networks, Ericsson Research
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| = Phone=C2=A0 +46 10 7148287
Torshamnsgatan 23=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Mobile = +46 73 0949079
SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------


--0000000000008ab9e7059d1fdeaa-- From nobody Tue Jan 28 05:19:15 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85A13120077 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 05:19:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=litespeedtech-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jcWFJakWWKvo for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 05:19:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qv1-xf33.google.com (mail-qv1-xf33.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::f33]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 92F1C120071 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 05:19:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qv1-xf33.google.com with SMTP id y8so6193062qvk.6 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 05:19:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=litespeedtech-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:mail-followup-to:references :mime-version:content-disposition:content-transfer-encoding :in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=jN2pBW1NNQI8+JyhI9gCGrAA3/swwmgNHX8imoG9ufU=; b=jd6G8sX23wUWDSOOv6sL3hp4+6gIfx9cb4DBiROPf6/IgFQwBaTe4SHDZSJe65/oyO y9oDni1LonAieE2OgKAhnfUxDcJUPTx5UiwF8oOxw5peA6ns3XjRLV7ILcahM6684ZrZ LdD4ElYRYWpwLLFp0wBzIzllSD6n9E3fNx5/0KQUQPhIu7Rs5fXdC2d2Z3mJg7ellxoj s5Rt1qzpaY72YoBezJ1PiMlkMoorkxs95EYQsvc5v1t3qF4wE+A5geLFfdVQ0ej20/ys nJ2dtCjgURGHjW1tGfe+o7SUbK2Ok3qZOKAzlQX8hLqSfPfeDHH4FqUTXGqSADK38BI7 gfyQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id :mail-followup-to:references:mime-version:content-disposition :content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=jN2pBW1NNQI8+JyhI9gCGrAA3/swwmgNHX8imoG9ufU=; b=r6oV91SsMlwS/GTT2TRQ/rMNVFb6oTYQEX8gaXMuUyxabKZ71bbow+nJXBAYj2pU5P 0voiYSQ9kuDhzaTujzZsXLwAdJ9jFmN+emhHDMHfmaMQbNlzvF8M8iGJ7uKSI4sMWDr6 AIN17WiMOBST0Cgv/iZJNzYLadlbbWkdNhwRKE3JRawUBn1pFu1xxrEiA/Z2EwAqlyIJ 3mmdMb55lRb/Xb6o5yRJLtiGNwDkBea57PEaVVSxaiQM+TArZB3SO+Sbhx+SDjioPodM 9NgOhJIuEJQ8oS+YHjLb5bGjqlang5IUxNnx7C2fZT5mb98fba8sTlzuMILmdbcxVBeA kX0g== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXcG0JPbbtGwTqnqMTyyQLMpqgQMLNBTOZlQAOqoWfGUgbeN36L cvTFcXpROby1e3kzD0sVWjFIBA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqza0U1igLFyu164e0t5Kvje4GjlDdktgp+7lhvq8CiRmw9A7J3oJEucFoxAsvodGC7Bqt0H4g== X-Received: by 2002:a0c:e2d1:: with SMTP id t17mr22384961qvl.25.1580217550458; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 05:19:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from ubuntu-dmitri (ool-2f1636b6.static.optonline.net. [47.22.54.182]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w2sm8311125qtd.97.2020.01.28.05.19.09 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 28 Jan 2020 05:19:09 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 08:19:05 -0500 From: Dmitri Tikhonov To: Kazuho Oku Cc: Ian Swett , Christian Huitema , Marten Seemann , IETF QUIC WG Subject: Re: Alternative ways to keeps ODCID on the server Message-ID: <20200128131904.GA12466@ubuntu-dmitri> Mail-Followup-To: Kazuho Oku , Ian Swett , Christian Huitema , Marten Seemann , IETF QUIC WG References: <20200124222434.GA8279@ubuntu-dmitri> <7b228c14-c0d3-6458-77ab-945e713ef429@huitema.net> <20200125135411.GA19655@ubuntu-dmitri> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 13:19:15 -0000 The server cannot pretend as if the Retry token weren't there, because the client knows that it sent the Retry token and will verify the subsequent Initial packet from the server according to rules in Section 17.2.5 [1]: If the client received and processed a Retry packet, it MUST validate that the original_connection_id transport parameter is present and correct; otherwise, it MUST validate that the transport parameter is absent. A client MUST treat a failed validation as a connection error of type TRANSPORT_PARAMETER_ERROR. A conformant client will fail the connection. - Dmitri. 1. https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-quic-transport-25#section-17.2.5 On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 07:39:48AM +0900, Kazuho Oku wrote: > I am not sure if I agree with dropping the sentence. > > IIRC, this sentence (i.e. "server MAY proceed with the connection without > verifying the token, though the server MUST NOT consider the client address > validated.") suggests that a server might proceed the handshake as if it > did not receive the token when that token cannot be used. > > I think that is not an unreasonable thing to do along with the other two > stated option (i.e. discard packet, send CONNECTION_CLOSE without creating > state). > > Maybe changing "verifying the token" to "as if there was no token being > attached" would clarify things? > > 2020年1月27日(月) 22:15 Dmitri Tikhonov : > > > After considering this for a few days, I now think that the "server > > MAY proceed" part should be removed from the draft. This is because > > it is impossible to get ODCID from an invalid Retry token. There is > > no other way reliably to associate an incoming packet with a previous > > packet (if the server were willing to stored ODCIDs in memory > > somewhere). > > > > Specifying that the server MAY proceed only makes the issue more > > confusing. > > > > - Dmitri. > > > > On Sat, Jan 25, 2020 at 04:36:51PM -0500, Ian Swett wrote: > > > This is a bit of an edge case, so spelling out what's required to proceed > > > seems reasonable to me. > > > > > > On Sat, Jan 25, 2020 at 12:11 AM Christian Huitema > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On 1/24/2020 8:41 PM, Marten Seemann wrote: > > > > > > > > Then it's not a *Retry* token, then it's a NEW_TOKEN token. > > > > It's a kind of subtle distinction (as I noted in > > > > https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/pull/3107#discussion_r349859380 > > ). > > > > > > > > > > > > I understand that they are different. But look at the text in draft-25: > > > > > > > > If a server receives a client Initial that can be unprotected but > > > > contains an invalid Retry token, it knows the client will not accept > > > > another Retry token. The server can discard such a packet and allow > > > > the client to time out to detect handshake failure, but that could > > > > impose a significant latency penalty on the client. A server MAY > > > > proceed with the connection without verifying the token, though the > > > > server MUST NOT consider the client address validated. If a server > > > > chooses not to proceed with the handshake, it SHOULD immediately > > > > close (Section 10.3 < > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-quic-transport-25#section-10.3>) > > the connection with an INVALID_TOKEN error. > > > > Note that a server has not established any state for the connection > > > > at this point and so does not enter the closing period. > > > > > > > > Invalid is invalid. An invalid token is something that the server > > cannot parse. > > > > The server does not know whether the client got the token from a retry > > packet > > > > or a new token frame, or just made it up with random bytes. > > > > > > > > -- Christian Huitema > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Kazuho Oku From nobody Tue Jan 28 05:58:48 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF0B61200BA for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 05:58:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=litespeedtech-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E20FVxlMhiK7 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 05:58:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt1-x836.google.com (mail-qt1-x836.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::836]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 692B912009E for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 05:58:44 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt1-x836.google.com with SMTP id w8so10265374qts.11 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 05:58:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=litespeedtech-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:mail-followup-to:references :mime-version:content-disposition:content-transfer-encoding :in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=m53CY6yFxH6jnzfmu5akqDaT8Ix5+XW+VCUShAh1kz8=; b=XoW9vmN/vs2wXNQCCLKSY6i92uV5AhYPoXypbSrZCom47n1JVdhZHN8kRCc84dd2GR OE7J0WwW2slz4C6FTKUdUxsFqMvlt9AY+hORzh6OJlNgjQ90zBwP4tUvwjuaQHsFz2tj h7Jm2SR7TgUUEa3YD7dCGYmFjyhkENtmKWlfAXquN26fhehQLWg7Is3mXIkitAYeWTUg JQypE3SnthEmt65kVzfgp/LPppILjyA7XfK4BPpppBsv6BHnqlHqGFr97B7pMLUIx6mT 083o94eDoSs7eiJ3a/Tlocm6q2rv6hRO40F2Y95DID63YME5zguP3h8IAOGbK+TigNfP JsuA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id :mail-followup-to:references:mime-version:content-disposition :content-transfer-encoding:in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=m53CY6yFxH6jnzfmu5akqDaT8Ix5+XW+VCUShAh1kz8=; b=FkuL/GL2xjMplwgydEpNBWFnVeJ6XrtbhhJMru1l9eJyo3AveoBYQ8L0B1Gi8+fLYn I0MpyljW6lZC+ssgxGKj+ayUaNkYl8xxT1iAw5B1GvD5FYOYtVPmDYs2BWxX59ZpZEVR tixqBbhq03VY3REyvcq+Xjkt8WIOmrCQsYePiX/T/N4a893Os4UrDfnFXJgYMzuaqg30 iKnu13QF9S6wlidXvhD0vDCqPAda9MvgilI90CDxiTIdkYI6BJmQzNdPivQv1IhzuxxD yYvjtlTUPaQIK7lMw+fgMGExCjD9JJ0O95BEWQU8qTxtK7FSpO5oQGebndLXgZpv4P8c ZbMA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVIXxtuLikgkmnoBBExBnNjgz3BSr6Iony6TUH20Ztqcm+cXfVr 9fnry5dtfks38XETg0IWmC/VCw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqx3gjkT8Phwd+QH2TNY6hcvWfDOJzF+mxGJips/O0+EDduPJYjLngQl+iVkFqTjaXrjKMyl/w== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:47cc:: with SMTP id d12mr21689902qtr.246.1580219923416; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 05:58:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from ubuntu-dmitri (ool-2f1636b6.static.optonline.net. [47.22.54.182]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v55sm10468517qtc.1.2020.01.28.05.58.42 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 28 Jan 2020 05:58:42 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 08:58:40 -0500 From: Dmitri Tikhonov To: Jana Iyengar Cc: Mike Bishop , Ian Swett , QUIC WG , Matt Joras , Lucas Pardue Subject: Re: Proposed extension for delayed acknowledgments Message-ID: <20200128135839.GB12466@ubuntu-dmitri> Mail-Followup-To: Jana Iyengar , Mike Bishop , Ian Swett , QUIC WG , Matt Joras , Lucas Pardue References: <20200127135053.GB19655@ubuntu-dmitri> <20200127184007.GC19655@ubuntu-dmitri> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 13:58:47 -0000 OK, thanks for the heads up: I'll wait for the updated draft. I hope it is ready in a day or two so that Matt Joras and I (and others?) can have it by the Interop. - Dmitri. On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 03:46:16PM -0800, Jana Iyengar wrote: > Thanks for proposing the TP: I'll update the draft to use it, knowing that > we're squatting on it. > FWIW, I'm going to change the Reordering TP to a frame, per the discussion > on #18 , so hold > off on implementing that bit if you can. > > On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 1:15 PM Mike Bishop wrote: > > > The registry doesn’t exist until the document defining it ships, does it? > > So technically, there’s nothing to make a provisional registration in at > > this point; we’re just picking a value and squatting on it. > > > > > > > > (Which, to be clear, is a totally reasonable experimentation strategy > > within the working group.) > > > > > > > > *From:* QUIC *On Behalf Of * Lucas Pardue > > *Sent:* Monday, January 27, 2020 3:06 PM > > *To:* Matt Joras ; Jana Iyengar ; > > QUIC WG ; Ian Swett > > *Subject:* Re: Proposed extension for delayed acknowledgments > > > > > > > > Having been guilty of writing proposals that include "TBD" codepoints > > myself, I think it would be a good idea if proposals started to exercise > > the provisional registration policy defined in QUIC Transport draft 25 > > Section 22.1.1 [1] > > > > > > > > Provisional registration of codepoints are intended to allow for > > > > private use and experimentation with extensions to QUIC. Provisional > > > > registrations only require the inclusion of the codepoint value and > > > > contact information. However, provisional registrations could be > > > > reclaimed and reassigned for another purpose. > > > > That saves interested folk from having to come up with their own in order > > to do experimental interop. (thanks for picking something and soliciting it > > Dmitri). > > > > > > > > Lucas > > > > > > > > [1] - > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-quic-transport-25#section-22.1 > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 6:46 PM Dmitri Tikhonov < > > dtikhonov@litespeedtech.com> wrote: > > > > Cool. As for TP, let's use 0xDE1A ("DEL"ayed "A"ck)? > > > > - Dmitri. > > > > On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 10:01:35AM -0800, Matt Joras wrote: > > > I'll bite. I can do my best to implement it for interop. We already have > > a > > > mechanism to do something with an out-of-band configuration. > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 5:51 AM Dmitri Tikhonov < > > dtikhonov@litespeedtech.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > I'll commit to implementing this by the Interop next week if at least > > > > one other implementation does so as well. > > > > > > > > Takers? (And let's pick the TP ID.) > > > > > > > > - Dmitri. > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 01:50:59PM -0800, Jana Iyengar wrote: > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > > > Ian and I have proposed an extension to enable sender-side control of > > > > > acknowledgement frequency: draft-iyengar-quic-delayed-ack-00 > > > > > . > > > > > > > > > > The problem this extension solves was originally discussed in #1978 > > > > > , where we agreed > > > > that > > > > > this might be best done in an extension. The desire to reduce the > > > > frequency > > > > > of acknowledgements was more recently brought up and discussed in > > #3304 > > > > > , where it seemed > > > > clear > > > > > that there was interest in working on this now. This proposed > > extension > > > > is > > > > > a result. > > > > > > > > > > This is an individual draft. Please feel free to use the following > > github > > > > > repo, which is NOT the working group's repo, for filing issues and > > > > > discussion pertaining to the draft: > > > > > https://github.com/janaiyengar/ack-frequency > > > > > > > > > > - jana > > > > > > > > > > > > From nobody Tue Jan 28 08:57:20 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A13912003E for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 08:57:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EeHNQqa6RNRF for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 08:57:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x231.google.com (mail-lj1-x231.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A572F120019 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 08:57:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x231.google.com with SMTP id a13so15426789ljm.10 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 08:57:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=E/3olIOwx9EnCGCNH6agq5+ZkuaAAKTGr4FqErTD1dw=; b=FjWJk9FD8YT6mtj2h4GiP3MxLWTDUJ77/TUWzv05/xi/qWvDYZsm245XMPnEB6e94e z+V9KgtXr8TRWZvlSP89AZm9AbwCONK2zsscPjG3iLKDE23AJrNtnI9968klfJQyUn9q gY4tcBiYSEDQ+AlabppDTXGVjl9Qf1pKFlL6EchWwRxVXAy4j8E2vlIbUXEX7aQBhkrC /SjTiBDDex0rwu65WPb6bSHjQIWDtuFrSlEcI2Ifz9OEAciLmRMCanAI/zvjsQJQ7tVT mZMq2USiolILlO/L2/rkREdz5aisktrCBS+n0mLaL4c+CDF3f1OU8WfJ/HsNF6LSUV0u caqg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=E/3olIOwx9EnCGCNH6agq5+ZkuaAAKTGr4FqErTD1dw=; b=fgUKSSr4MlotOvcLlHXLszR8GiSRjj5Y4yYqoLCxjwNLCP148n9DmYt5c4NNjpbn/d F93rSsJ+72DeYq+POmCCHqBwkUbrOneutHAbPTOjIeO94DHSMtt384vbkscBzzA2EXfg PDRtxg4ZEmvr9qNZzlxziGgBbAumv87u+yiNPBzbX2QojzLNCskWZkooX2aIZMZiehQj P19zjujWSpn30RMhsPrWGLIwdRhpV7VIAnpXzOPiEfUoeppD6CUy5MbSSUIQgvBTKN0Q qNpaWKQc5ILAMNxVcPqKAUvr0Z3ys3fz9pgTSO0xf9h6HhfzLiY4YPrnyHRBMLxQY1iB 8a2Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVipFUEV5qErurirGq+IoRvPgNW8X/tDbrJXRCLksmLQNuk0gA6 XaPvR80ds1VKBXLTRZRBQCGV5zI99P2NhffKm7I= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwNl3pFAAm1CQLbxXu2aqZei5IYbiR72yvj8d6xLZv9wpPQ8+Ob+6xFqkhucPs72D70OgqporhgCI9epeyUp/s= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:93c5:: with SMTP id p5mr13632185ljh.192.1580230633705; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 08:57:13 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200127135053.GB19655@ubuntu-dmitri> <20200127184007.GC19655@ubuntu-dmitri> <20200128135839.GB12466@ubuntu-dmitri> In-Reply-To: <20200128135839.GB12466@ubuntu-dmitri> From: Jana Iyengar Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 08:57:02 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Proposed extension for delayed acknowledgments To: Jana Iyengar , Mike Bishop , Ian Swett , QUIC WG , Matt Joras , Lucas Pardue Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000095dce9059d361da6" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 16:57:19 -0000 --00000000000095dce9059d361da6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yup, will try to get a PR out today. On Tue, Jan 28, 2020, 5:58 AM Dmitri Tikhonov wrote: > OK, thanks for the heads up: I'll wait for the updated draft. I hope > it is ready in a day or two so that Matt Joras and I (and others?) can > have it by the Interop. > > - Dmitri. > > On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 03:46:16PM -0800, Jana Iyengar wrote: > > Thanks for proposing the TP: I'll update the draft to use it, knowing > that > > we're squatting on it. > > FWIW, I'm going to change the Reordering TP to a frame, per the > discussion > > on #18 , so hol= d > > off on implementing that bit if you can. > > > > On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 1:15 PM Mike Bishop > wrote: > > > > > The registry doesn=E2=80=99t exist until the document defining it shi= ps, does > it? > > > So technically, there=E2=80=99s nothing to make a provisional registr= ation in > at > > > this point; we=E2=80=99re just picking a value and squatting on it. > > > > > > > > > > > > (Which, to be clear, is a totally reasonable experimentation strategy > > > within the working group.) > > > > > > > > > > > > *From:* QUIC *On Behalf Of * Lucas Pardue > > > *Sent:* Monday, January 27, 2020 3:06 PM > > > *To:* Matt Joras ; Jana Iyengar < > jri.ietf@gmail.com>; > > > QUIC WG ; Ian Swett > > > *Subject:* Re: Proposed extension for delayed acknowledgments > > > > > > > > > > > > Having been guilty of writing proposals that include "TBD" codepoints > > > myself, I think it would be a good idea if proposals started to > exercise > > > the provisional registration policy defined in QUIC Transport draft 2= 5 > > > Section 22.1.1 [1] > > > > > > > > > > > > Provisional registration of codepoints are intended to allow for > > > > > > private use and experimentation with extensions to QUIC. > Provisional > > > > > > registrations only require the inclusion of the codepoint value an= d > > > > > > contact information. However, provisional registrations could be > > > > > > reclaimed and reassigned for another purpose. > > > > > > That saves interested folk from having to come up with their own in > order > > > to do experimental interop. (thanks for picking something and > soliciting it > > > Dmitri). > > > > > > > > > > > > Lucas > > > > > > > > > > > > [1] - > > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-quic-transport-25#section-22.1 > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 6:46 PM Dmitri Tikhonov < > > > dtikhonov@litespeedtech.com> wrote: > > > > > > Cool. As for TP, let's use 0xDE1A ("DEL"ayed "A"ck)? > > > > > > - Dmitri. > > > > > > On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 10:01:35AM -0800, Matt Joras wrote: > > > > I'll bite. I can do my best to implement it for interop. We already > have > > > a > > > > mechanism to do something with an out-of-band configuration. > > > > > > > > Matt > > > > > > > > On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 5:51 AM Dmitri Tikhonov < > > > dtikhonov@litespeedtech.com> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > I'll commit to implementing this by the Interop next week if at > least > > > > > one other implementation does so as well. > > > > > > > > > > Takers? (And let's pick the TP ID.) > > > > > > > > > > - Dmitri. > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 01:50:59PM -0800, Jana Iyengar wrote: > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > > > > > > > Ian and I have proposed an extension to enable sender-side > control of > > > > > > acknowledgement frequency: draft-iyengar-quic-delayed-ack-00 > > > > > > < > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iyengar-quic-delayed-ack/>. > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem this extension solves was originally discussed in > #1978 > > > > > > , where we > agreed > > > > > that > > > > > > this might be best done in an extension. The desire to reduce t= he > > > > > frequency > > > > > > of acknowledgements was more recently brought up and discussed = in > > > #3304 > > > > > > , where it > seemed > > > > > clear > > > > > > that there was interest in working on this now. This proposed > > > extension > > > > > is > > > > > > a result. > > > > > > > > > > > > This is an individual draft. Please feel free to use the > following > > > github > > > > > > repo, which is NOT the working group's repo, for filing issues > and > > > > > > discussion pertaining to the draft: > > > > > > https://github.com/janaiyengar/ack-frequency > > > > > > > > > > > > - jana > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --00000000000095dce9059d361da6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Yup, will try to get a PR out today.

On Tue, Jan 28, 2020= , 5:58 AM Dmitri Tikhonov <dtikhonov@litespeedtech.com> wrote:
OK, thanks for the heads up: I'll wait for the updated draft.= =C2=A0 I hope
it is ready in a day or two so that Matt Joras and I (and others?) can
have it by the Interop.

=C2=A0 - Dmitri.

On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 03:46:16PM -0800, Jana Iyengar wrote:
> Thanks for proposing the TP: I'll update the draft to use it, know= ing that
> we're squatting on it.
> FWIW, I'm going to change the Reordering TP to a frame, per the di= scussion
> on #18 <https://github.com/= janaiyengar/ack-frequency/issues/18>, so hold
> off on implementing that bit if you can.
>
> On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 1:15 PM Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be= > wrote:
>
> > The registry doesn=E2=80=99t exist until the document defining it= ships, does it?
> > So technically, there=E2=80=99s nothing to make a provisional reg= istration in at
> > this point; we=E2=80=99re just picking a value and squatting on i= t.
> >
> >
> >
> > (Which, to be clear, is a totally reasonable experimentation stra= tegy
> > within the working group.)
> >
> >
> >
> > *From:* QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of = * Lucas Pardue
> > *Sent:* Monday, January 27, 2020 3:06 PM
> > *To:* Matt Joras <matt.joras@gmail.com>; Jana Iyengar= <jri.ietf@gmail.com>;
> > QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>; Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com<= /a>>
> > *Subject:* Re: Proposed extension for delayed acknowledgments
> >
> >
> >
> > Having been guilty of writing proposals that include "TBD&qu= ot; codepoints
> > myself, I think it would be a good idea if proposals started to e= xercise
> > the provisional registration policy defined in QUIC Transport dra= ft 25
> > Section 22.1.1 [1]
> >
> >
> >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Provisional registration of codepoints are intended = to allow for
> >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 private use and experimentation with extensions to Q= UIC.=C2=A0 Provisional
> >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 registrations only require the inclusion of the code= point value and
> >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 contact information.=C2=A0 However, provisional regi= strations could be
> >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 reclaimed and reassigned for another purpose.
> >
> > That saves interested folk from having to come up with their own = in order
> > to do experimental interop. (thanks for picking something and sol= iciting it
> > Dmitri).
> >
> >
> >
> > Lucas
> >
> >
> >
> > [1] -
> > https://to= ols.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-quic-transport-25#section-22.1
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 6:46 PM Dmitri Tikhonov <
> > dtikhonov@litespeedtech.com> wrote:
> >
> > Cool.=C2=A0 As for TP, let's use 0xDE1A ("DEL"ayed = "A"ck)?
> >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Dmitri.
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 10:01:35AM -0800, Matt Joras wrote:
> > > I'll bite. I can do my best to implement it for interop.= We already have
> > a
> > > mechanism to do something with an out-of-band configuration.=
> > >
> > > Matt
> > >
> > > On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 5:51 AM Dmitri Tikhonov <
> > dtikhonov@litespeedtech.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > I'll commit to implementing this by the Interop nex= t week if at least
> > > > one other implementation does so as well.
> > > >
> > > > Takers?=C2=A0 (And let's pick the TP ID.)
> > > >
> > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0- Dmitri.
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Jan 23, 2020 at 01:50:59PM -0800, Jana Iyengar = wrote:
> > > > > Hi all,
> > > > >
> > > > > Ian and I have proposed an extension to enable sen= der-side control of
> > > > > acknowledgement frequency: draft-iyengar-quic-dela= yed-ack-00
> > > > > <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-iyengar-quic-delayed-ack/>= ;.
> > > > >
> > > > > The problem this extension solves was originally d= iscussed in #1978
> > > > > <https://git= hub.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/1978>, where we agreed
> > > > that
> > > > > this might be best done in an extension. The desir= e to reduce the
> > > > frequency
> > > > > of acknowledgements was more recently brought up a= nd discussed in
> > #3304
> > > > > <https://git= hub.com/quicwg/base-drafts/issues/3304>, where it seemed
> > > > clear
> > > > > that there was interest in working on this now. Th= is proposed
> > extension
> > > > is
> > > > > a result.
> > > > >
> > > > > This is an individual draft. Please feel free to u= se the following
> > github
> > > > > repo, which is NOT the working group's repo, f= or filing issues and
> > > > > discussion pertaining to the draft:
> > > > > https://github.com/j= anaiyengar/ack-frequency
> > > > >
> > > > > - jana
> > > >
> > > >
> >
> >
--00000000000095dce9059d361da6-- From nobody Tue Jan 28 10:29:06 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7441120026 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 10:29:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WDGEFdnPxtgb for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 10:29:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr1-x42e.google.com (mail-wr1-x42e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 18EBE12006D for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 10:29:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr1-x42e.google.com with SMTP id w15so17261931wru.4 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 10:29:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=fhsHjJsijL5khkm7jPo4qGU7/3TyEf5WohHZQ6QWfzg=; b=ix/zzRdyFbnL+yLuz5K+jYgPkh5yJzyGw2ZW4uQ7AAghrW45qQIVCIHfQkuefgYO9+ Z38eeUVdP9ULYNTPT1Sn8SH9L7g0Z8Rxr2/bHPuhvBbPVSBX77KFDKxkwIei9h2g+Ra3 ZjmbEY9YUvT7q5JSKE1gIj9CqWZAYfO/QfFLdWEDKagnlfKSg2y0Gu0iXhf7Wa1lvrd3 OFtUtbj56zwUS3QjYwsl6OyTRw9vtaUpGY1t0FG5iQHnN5xOgjUhqmL550+b2FMKwt3j cNw4v2HRtH6QEBAX6/oiK5I81/iU22Yy2KSJZl1/wciW93+213guedOm7xyylJjSDibd XqdQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=fhsHjJsijL5khkm7jPo4qGU7/3TyEf5WohHZQ6QWfzg=; b=GNX/qgnf0N8QpThgcDy5/jKom4oOLQ413BE4BOkSfQueqomK/F2a+s0nt2u20QM32a RgU9UTpYj0sjCfDkwcia6ruJbC9WuKqmUeXYvhlFOZie5Ot3hLIsQ7zLKntLkOQC1f5C MKRN/zQxwJNduNozUW0OYrItGsD3hERyZvUey25Ssc52KQrPqPxNosN5r5VMZJsEIQBf 7im+QNGPEgGF+elpm+XYQHW47WqGRZsaTSz5WNHLj9dG/8z98j6jPoldUsSTzvu4zBhb h+/wewrmjRMrLmggHNaifujk0CO94l8aYTxV/7t2OI5uOWkG98MqjZnhFEzU1z5dJ3oa pZXQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWWfWZjvDEJmiyK4To/ywLeg37KIMCLgo37rlN0JUiytW8WH4d2 lfZH62oCGthKHBALKeCZTk16ff3vrSWKvWr4vv9Y4w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqx3h8BLpyQ7lFH0ZAsHVZ1aJUwHFqSCfBaM//1dAhAO/9VyEE/waBJ5bR+2EKdR4TLWcVoBzvPzSC5A1Qcp0sQ= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:6151:: with SMTP id y17mr29616753wrt.110.1580236141342; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 10:29:01 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <157470946896.14159.17248985824634821547.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <157470946896.14159.17248985824634821547.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Martin Duke Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 10:28:50 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-duke-quic-natsupp-00.txt To: IETF QUIC WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ddb54d059d3765f1" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 18:29:06 -0000 --000000000000ddb54d059d3765f1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" At Gorry's suggestion, I took the NAT recommendations and put them in a short draft that NAT guys are more likely to read. If this seems extraneous, I'm happy to get that feedback. ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Date: Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 11:17 AM Subject: New Version Notification for draft-duke-quic-natsupp-00.txt To: Martin Duke A new version of I-D, draft-duke-quic-natsupp-00.txt has been successfully submitted by Martin Duke and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-duke-quic-natsupp Revision: 00 Title: Network Address Translation Support for QUIC Document date: 2019-11-25 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 5 URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-duke-quic-natsupp-00.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-duke-quic-natsupp/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-duke-quic-natsupp-00 Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-duke-quic-natsupp Abstract: Network Address Translators (NATs) are widely deployed to share scarce public IPv4 addresses among mutiple end hosts. They overwrite IP addresses and ports in IP packets to do so. QUIC is a protocol on top of UDP that provides transport-like services. QUIC is better- behaved in the presence of NATs than older protocols, and existing UDP NATs should operate without incident if unmodified. QUIC offers additional features that may tempt NAT implementers as potential optimizations. However, in practice, leveraging these features will lead to new connection failure modes and security vulnerabilities. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat --000000000000ddb54d059d3765f1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
At Gorry's suggestion, I took the NAT recommendations = and put them in a short draft that NAT guys are more likely to read. If thi= s seems extraneous, I'm happy to get that feedback.

---------- Forwar= ded message ---------
From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
Date: Mon= , Nov 25, 2019 at 11:17 AM
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-d= uke-quic-natsupp-00.txt
To: Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>



A new version of I-D, draft-duke-quic-natsupp-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by Martin Duke and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-duke-quic-natsupp
Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A000
Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Network Address Translation Suppor= t for QUIC
Document date:=C2=A0 2019-11-25
Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Individual Submission
Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 5
URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-duke-quic-natsupp-0= 0.txt
Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ht= tps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-duke-quic-natsupp/
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://to= ols.ietf.org/html/draft-duke-quic-natsupp-00
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0htt= ps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-duke-quic-natsupp


Abstract:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Network Address Translators (NATs) are widely deployed to shar= e
=C2=A0 =C2=A0scarce public IPv4 addresses among mutiple end hosts.=C2=A0 Th= ey overwrite
=C2=A0 =C2=A0IP addresses and ports in IP packets to do so.=C2=A0 QUIC is a= protocol on
=C2=A0 =C2=A0top of UDP that provides transport-like services.=C2=A0 QUIC i= s better-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0behaved in the presence of NATs than older protocols, and exis= ting
=C2=A0 =C2=A0UDP NATs should operate without incident if unmodified.=C2=A0 = QUIC offers
=C2=A0 =C2=A0additional features that may tempt NAT implementers as potenti= al
=C2=A0 =C2=A0optimizations.=C2=A0 However, in practice, leveraging these fe= atures will
=C2=A0 =C2=A0lead to new connection failure modes and security vulnerabilit= ies.




Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat

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h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=8EUzVbFccpAma5jHtqY8bMmlaozmUGO20RgNRNl63Ss=; b=o5vIIH9uKFZsYwodKlr0JaB1t1WV1GHdeN2aUEWWR0LEhZZxg4UUlvqk+J8kTz+eF3 9HQZ8/pXW2tpBAsYx/RxtItZFKqshdwoIPijoikqu219mSBHVm5kzMVnW2BEY0U1D1p6 FzgKcfxzo5J5hqjQkyrHhDD9PEt8xR5E5TaJKoQ1F+qFxnV1+IVuJgINdMt+/J7G7uDC n2zADmXag/UujOf3jBMufVf33vjpwURduzRXQ9FsKR5z3qA4TVfzWYq2A7WoBMOBKS8e 9lQCtbwwKjP0FeH3uDfMtY9Ui2VzGXM4iEnR5+I8+RZxQpgBj2LuFego2JgqwsvVMRoD /AHA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVwQfO1qmrjfVtU/AgiLkTg2y/xaMzwYJ7kyM44QNpBSue20tS9 TFt69OyweNIaRgv13pS4O6VUU4YDRTei4L55YNM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwblMyZa5W2e86p0f7Q0+I7OSAXfR1G4qTsSvRoUa69C2RUNOiGjtYDAc9sg5nMwuZ4WU4la+NuQRKWKlCiDD8= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:280c:: with SMTP id w12mr13818666uap.79.1580239157904; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 11:19:17 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200127135053.GB19655@ubuntu-dmitri> <20200127184007.GC19655@ubuntu-dmitri> In-Reply-To: From: Lucas Pardue Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 19:19:09 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Proposed extension for delayed acknowledgments To: Mike Bishop Cc: Matt Joras , Jana Iyengar , QUIC WG , Ian Swett Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000aacadb059d3819c2" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 19:19:20 -0000 --000000000000aacadb059d3819c2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 27 Jan 2020, 21:15 Mike Bishop, wrote: > The registry doesn=E2=80=99t exist until the document defining it ships, = does it? > So technically, there=E2=80=99s nothing to make a provisional registratio= n in at > this point; we=E2=80=99re just picking a value and squatting on it. > > Fair point, I agree. As an individual, I might predict that we'll see a few proposals that need code points before the registries get set up. I think there is benefit in (provisional) provisional registration to help set a good example and adopt the spirit of the guidance. Lucas > > > --000000000000aacadb059d3819c2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Mon, 27 Jan 2020, 21:15 Mike Bishop, <mbishop@evequefou.be> wrote:

The registry doesn=E2=80=99t exist until the documen= t defining it ships, does it?=C2=A0 So technically, there=E2=80=99s nothing= to make a provisional registration in at this point; we=E2=80=99re just pi= cking a value and squatting on it.

Fair point, I agree.

As an individual, I might predict that we'll see a few propo= sals that need code points before the registries get set up. I think there = is benefit in (provisional) provisional registration to help set a good exa= mple and adopt the spirit of the guidance.

Lucas
=




--000000000000aacadb059d3819c2-- From nobody Tue Jan 28 11:28:56 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 171A612004D for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 11:28:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5175yHOuyLhc for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 11:28:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x235.google.com (mail-lj1-x235.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 324E9120044 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 11:28:51 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x235.google.com with SMTP id o11so15927517ljc.6 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 11:28:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=VlW50ZHtyhcPqYF5EtUbPQTYbZxkv8rU8GPks+MfwJU=; b=DzSFf876j8lf1B9TJsKBY/tsX3aVZsCQq0pLmP8GGLJ24iTbWi5v/6asTqfK8DX5nV /s5dodpAyOhUcwLJYZTW2hFFm7MJS21ZTW9ICkZtQ/0bWcvgdaCaJAEpBHtWAFk0xgYe pzsOg6RJ/cLPPeWuB0WRQMjGB0YJ9eHnhktEWdpIdHwUpuwyukYuvlnnQGOHugwu3RcG SQRi34inqGSxOAO4puuOv6Dr09ZwVUxzsWMEF1v2h4vECqFaisjL7Z30IX6a4fQ9OPZS pKejkASPG1MnY8rQN5y9a1Nt9UUtrgMp7YL6bHztCcfK7K8v2BxkfajlUsGVA0EXoviM YZQA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=VlW50ZHtyhcPqYF5EtUbPQTYbZxkv8rU8GPks+MfwJU=; b=PykNDuGCRYb0t17ZSSLK/Qux3NqU9G0d7grbh9a2YeEQlicJ/Hlsi7NomRRzsdaGU5 Iv1abD+l7ayifn+nSLZ6a3yuZkdIMZT0+wNcNO8jC/FEzwj8eIkcfyNr+vewpfu/zDbb 6ZAs8Kn+a855R1s8EeCRvAb5CFMGllJqb7pemTWLSxqRqa/PT40EkOhPcFyb4GB7o3LV gTQDEOMRQUPIdmK7BZCRsEYipIUxAor2t5R4wyRByaCjxG+cBMCjiSyuA6sxIq0Y+Elo 43Nsu4rJ7lOXIDLtYvznq59F8KwABPCoObn1og0PMmbDFy6TU2P+vgr1X6CwMvNkcCti OHmw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXX9KHsxk2ymIE1o6Q5syvKQieIO8y0Gpkk9aGwk9UOORoJxtqj WvmAH0z0igWRPdK+AHCkPT0OmbNzKZ5v/Q715gM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwZMaALR3S+ZX/rtzCAvYxLSLvrGQ/wvtGdGEj0B0+gWGOE6knX1gIHOuYDpspg0zMSc5t8BKaLRmLAsQSjvM8= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:2201:: with SMTP id i1mr14143196lji.110.1580239729317; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 11:28:49 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200127135053.GB19655@ubuntu-dmitri> <20200127184007.GC19655@ubuntu-dmitri> In-Reply-To: From: Jana Iyengar Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 11:28:37 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Proposed extension for delayed acknowledgments To: Lucas Pardue Cc: Mike Bishop , Matt Joras , QUIC WG , Ian Swett Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b9e255059d383bdb" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 19:28:54 -0000 --000000000000b9e255059d383bdb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 11:19 AM Lucas Pardue wrote: > > On Mon, 27 Jan 2020, 21:15 Mike Bishop, wrote: > >> The registry doesn=E2=80=99t exist until the document defining it ships,= does >> it? So technically, there=E2=80=99s nothing to make a provisional regis= tration in >> at this point; we=E2=80=99re just picking a value and squatting on it. >> >> Fair point, I agree. > > As an individual, I might predict that we'll see a few proposals that nee= d > code points before the registries get set up. I think there is benefit in > (provisional) provisional registration to help set a good example and ado= pt > the spirit of the guidance. > Given the space available, I think informal agreement among implementers (as we're doing here and now) is probably adequate. Let's not set another system up in preparation for the provisional registry that ought to happen Real Soon Now. --000000000000b9e255059d383bdb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 11:19 AM Lucas Pa= rdue <lu= caspardue.24.7@gmail.com> wrote:
<= br>
On Mon,= 27 Jan 2020, 21:15 Mike Bishop, <mbishop@evequefou.be> wrote:

The registry doesn=E2=80=99t exist until the documen= t defining it ships, does it?=C2=A0 So technically, there=E2=80=99s nothing= to make a provisional registration in at this point; we=E2=80=99re just pi= cking a value and squatting on it.

Fair point, I agree.

As an individual, I might predict that we'll see a few propo= sals that need code points before the registries get set up. I think there = is benefit in (provisional) provisional registration to help set a good exa= mple and adopt the spirit of the guidance.
Given the space available, I think informal agreement among imp= lementers (as we're doing here and now) is probably adequate. Let's= not set another system up in preparation for the provisional registry that= ought to happen Real Soon Now.
--000000000000b9e255059d383bdb-- From nobody Tue Jan 28 11:44:36 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2184120024 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 11:44:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.748 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.748 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nYCf56Ew3GGn for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 11:44:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vs1-xe2b.google.com (mail-vs1-xe2b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e2b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4A9F2120020 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 11:44:34 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-vs1-xe2b.google.com with SMTP id g15so8921938vsf.1 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 11:44:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=SfQoO11GX8etwZBQm29WaFGNea+2bKkNjtsHXSphqgE=; b=OyqCLda/h6ofXgaag2XxDf1pXMmEwPamkqiMpagHxzH0XpMqXyeihm/muQDFtYCJZs D8oULcXylrGjbyym46YWr7C+/h7xsJmO6lvNN/L7lbIf0e8OqY2dQpMB81WSZtvAKtK+ NVkIXCdeocZsZpkuNAICb0+SjiPRAMt2QfLnnWu95bW3OoP2Gk8yfJr7xtr7kYGbHi5L 24fc4O196i9VGJrqGOfym7h9AJFKAM98+OSzum1xww22jwX0Pyl5h7qm23pWzVMUMePG ZhoIM0y11k1B71HR2ch3zIy1maUQ9iiXCe87XblfMdVMunafF2EB3gzwM+SH0IVygllm nh0Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=SfQoO11GX8etwZBQm29WaFGNea+2bKkNjtsHXSphqgE=; b=Qxm66DcpeCzMxoNxZdgt+NmjwMM0MKxc/SXgm0GpKmYqXhLyrLNj5geqe1ZpsxG/lK /2lGMLqRjgz9Ed+/IlzfWyZPgr7q/4bZXisvxHhxQvBzmbaI4VnShbzh8OTfV+vF9tT1 Lh1wilBnxhEQA0ZoMtCdAWtYiAJTqeI4omqWHjoInw3EIeZKWE9Iw9zNgb9EMqO6US3j oCa3GC4uVz5EAcMVeJqErncQ7McXf3qEG0LM1WC3Xek0ovqmY/a7IMGccebdrFRDoAor T3c49x9cnqDxi3hcK/bfklfJGRG9urXcqhFfNWRtfnp5nkIMTEVaL+1ThwzdFbFJYs9I jVQw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWKvvoOLzL0bMIPl05V9JvOfLIvECD8ZeIh+dnSDyTaOjvzTE5Y G95W0pXbjcEPhCZBLL7Ss+4LZfVmxaCrV1qyAxg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqx3YHEImZzIEHxGi/uWzvqvo3HSoe7m3UD+nOFw/YkMYRnXpyfRpTw/7j4KxPnF4DGY8MTzgFJKWQovOuujdp4= X-Received: by 2002:a67:cf46:: with SMTP id f6mr12088772vsm.143.1580240673359; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 11:44:33 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200127135053.GB19655@ubuntu-dmitri> <20200127184007.GC19655@ubuntu-dmitri> In-Reply-To: From: Lucas Pardue Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 19:44:24 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Proposed extension for delayed acknowledgments To: Jana Iyengar Cc: Mike Bishop , Matt Joras , QUIC WG , Ian Swett Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000fecadb059d3873db" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 19:44:36 -0000 --000000000000fecadb059d3873db Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, 28 Jan 2020, 19:28 Jana Iyengar, wrote: Given the space available, I think informal agreement among implementers > (as we're doing here and now) is probably adequate. Let's not set another > system up in preparation for the provisional registry that ought to happen > Real Soon Now. > My observation was that of all the available space, none were selected. It doesn't seem too onerous a habit for 00 drafts to pick a value and replace IANA TBD sections with value and status fields. It might be squatting but in practice aliases with the registration process pretty well. Lucas > --000000000000fecadb059d3873db Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Tue, 28 Jan 2020, 19:28 Jana Iyengar, <jri.i= etf@gmail.com> wrote:
Given the space available, I think informal agreement among imp= lementers (as we're doing here and now) is probably adequate. Let's= not set another system up in preparation for the provisional registry that= ought to happen Real Soon Now.

My observation was that of all t= he available space, none were selected. It doesn't seem too onerous a h= abit for 00 drafts to pick a value and replace IANA TBD sections with value= and status fields. It might be squatting but in practice aliases with the = registration process pretty well.

Lucas
--000000000000fecadb059d3873db-- From nobody Tue Jan 28 11:49:51 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96D8F120024 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 11:49:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -17.5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-17.5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dR8LAbBdmgLk for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 11:49:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm1-x32e.google.com (mail-wm1-x32e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 599E1120033 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 11:49:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm1-x32e.google.com with SMTP id a9so3919377wmj.3 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 11:49:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=qQZhJMp8E3OhZTWO3Jbx6t+B2VRihApM4TWkKfDTMG0=; b=Pn0ChWQHSqtzLd99cuI3JhItWhj2CD6YjI7g/XRIs8kzB9cd7XnZM/y/Z97gfMO2Zn YFLL+I8uK9kvYWd+Dm86RndvyacLvi9YWMFgDYrjWNnkebGmPkgPPa4zk651uKaFplpg aXRbeKSFcL0UGZags1EX/fb98GEXIrboWQSMkETqcn4SAAlQgpJhkj9h4MAK0Taxbqpg +h7TsqugMWZbhUGLOucwK/zQxhDPtswDGhABgPgzSyYZDKC2i/Hsd/FWZZUskGLgus82 LfGAGxcy8OWAofhXLMVae6anfdFNoJhtOkjU8BM01rzXqimYw1k3cMXnuRL9MvD2rts/ 0WMA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=qQZhJMp8E3OhZTWO3Jbx6t+B2VRihApM4TWkKfDTMG0=; b=ugpO0TvC5HnR/naext5/6xoiYTwpgT6U4c7XZRzoqmmbZTC3h5I6skrBUfsS6Q3IDk wTI9VBMvJ0NY6C2AoF4hWqK03TBQ93zGhYaUtiH/4UK0Inf5wxbJv1oPdr77AfmBPdFD pQrOHkBP4ahg2IorM1YQeLI2CznxvAe6YdJLpCyklRsy/h7PHnTSg6C/xsZUc+qJBRfw KKaJTgydc05O5MDwzzlb9nm8EI0dSKhJjyxj0TSDy7z3C8w0jFaQ2uFSCDnD4oKfPt1U c+OkfQU3cRgVQXyUSeOzrwhJmcRLpOUVeonI/MR1sFbjTzSnrDH5eK+fEJ0NU4GvYiqb FfIQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAW2nZLWKDlDvOAh/X0OEsEXrpm5lP1AHegKrsjxoD0DlsjdO28m t0Hgv4/NjRT5NZVIfbo+40+9wG680MV3YEr1A8/FeA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqywcrGViXP+xAfAdACDBOb9Bk73AemNDtWqkxchYnQs4Dodb0zDak45sO6t70SyPCAFUEdIO3FLvmXhkzheUHM= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:e2c3:: with SMTP id z186mr3111999wmg.70.1580240984268; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 11:49:44 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <431df6637385ca6eb762a4c26b697fd936148543.camel@ericsson.com> <2966511B-93C8-4798-BB56-A8FAE76E91F0@fb.com> In-Reply-To: <2966511B-93C8-4798-BB56-A8FAE76E91F0@fb.com> From: Ian Swett Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 14:49:31 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Proposed Charter Text To: Roberto Peon Cc: Magnus Westerlund , "mbishop@evequefou.be" , "quic@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008752ba059d388623" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 19:49:50 -0000 --0000000000008752ba059d388623 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 2:04 PM Roberto Peon wrote: > Pretty sure I've been a strong cheerleader for avoiding distractions to > V1, so you won't hear disagreements there. > Since we want to make V1 happen, we haven't been discussing V2 stuff. > Datagrams aren't V1 stuff. Worse, datagrams are certainly in the same > sphere of stuff as is partial reliability, and so having it now as a 'QUI= C' > wg draft is going to make the V2 stuff harder in several ways. > > This is the root of my concern. > > We're too early to adopt Datagrams as an official document, imho, even as > an extension, because doing so makes it more difficult to get the more > complete thing done, which we've been avoiding solely to get V1 done. > I'm unclear on why you think Datagrams make it more difficult to complete v1? Aside from a few people writing the draft and this charter conversation, the working group has spent almost no time on them. I also don't believe they add complication to the core spec. > -=3DR > > > =EF=BB=BFOn 1/28/20, 2:32 AM, "Magnus Westerlund" > wrote: > > Roberto, > > On Mon, 2020-01-27 at 21:28 +0000, Roberto Peon wrote: > > Quite frankly, if we=E2=80=99re proposing to allow extensions for d= atagrams, > but not > > partial reliability, I don=E2=80=99t understand the motivation and = I won=E2=80=99t > support it. > > Is that the case here, =E2=80=98cause we=E2=80=99re not explicitly = talking about it > at all > > with the proposed change? > > To my understanding partial reliability for datagrams do not require > standardization on protocol level. This is a feature that given > datagram frames > in QUIC packets that has PSN that will be acknowledged can be > implemented sender > side with the appropriate API. If the WG think there are aspect of > this that > would benefit from description and alignment on API semnatics then we > can > include that later. However, I don't see it as anyway necessary in > this small > update. And if you think this is something that requires actual > specification > then I would encourage you to ensure that those pieces are written up > as a draft > for discussion. > > And as Mike already stated there will be a bigger rechartering later > when the v1 > specifications are done. > > Cheers > > Magnus > > > -=3DR > > > > From: QUIC on behalf of Mike Bishop < > > mbishop@evequefou.be> > > Date: Monday, January 27, 2020 at 10:06 AM > > To: Ian Swett , Magnus > Westerlund < > > magnus.westerlund=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org> > > Cc: "quic@ietf.org" > > Subject: RE: Proposed Charter Text > > > > This is true, but has also been a useful guide to our work on > HTTP/3. As you > > note, =E2=80=9CHTTP/2 semantics=E2=80=9D isn=E2=80=99t really a thi= ng =E2=80=93 HTTP/2 is a mapping > of HTTP > > semantics over TCP =E2=80=93 but we=E2=80=99ve interpreted this as = saying that > HTTP/3 by > > default has the same feature set as HTTP/2. We=E2=80=99ve required > consensus in both > > QUIC and HTTP working groups to deviate from that (e.g. priorities)= . > > Clarifying that language wouldn=E2=80=99t be inappropriate, but als= o isn=E2=80=99t > closely > > bound to the point of this update. > > > > Depends how much we want to fix existing text, just like any other > PR, I > > suppose. =F0=9F=98=8A > > > > Other feedback: > > Formatting nit: Your =E2=80=9Ckey goals=E2=80=9D bullet points are= folded into a > single > > mishmash paragraph > > With the removal of the mention of the initial documents, do we nee= d > the > > discussion about how we decide what to keep/change from those initi= al > > documents? > > > > From: QUIC On Behalf Of Ian Swett > > Sent: Monday, January 27, 2020 9:25 AM > > To: Magnus Westerlund 40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org> > > Cc: quic@ietf.org > > Subject: Re: Proposed Charter Text > > > > Thanks for the update. The original charter mentions HTTP/2 > multiple times, > > but except for when it's in reference to extensions, I think it > would be > > preferable to use HTTP instead of HTTP/2. For example, "The first > mapping > > will be a > > description of HTTP/2 semantics using QUIC," and "especially on th= e > QUIC > > mapping for HTTP/2" are quite odd now that HTTP/3 is it's own thing > which > > shares very little with HTTP/2. > > > > And two small comments below. > > > > Ian > > > > On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 9:07 AM Magnus Westerlund < > > magnus.westerlund=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > Due to the reshuffeling it may be hard to see exactly what is > changing. So > > > to > > > clarify in text what is being changed. > > > > > > The big change is to allow work on three "extension": Version > Negotiation, > > > datagram (these two are listed under fourth focus area) and how t= o > better > > > support load balancers (fifth focus area). > > > > > > Otherwise the changes are: > > > - removal of the initial input drafts to base the work on in firs= t > > > paragraph. > > > - Reshuffling of the paragraphs, the one "current practices for > network > > > management ..." is moved down. > > > - Removal of pragaraph regarding interim during first year. > > > - Removal of stand alone paragraph preventing extension work. The > no other > > > extensions is now baked into paragraph on fourth focus area. > > > - Clarification that mapping work may also be done outside of QUI= C > WG. > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > Magnus Westerlund > > > > > > On Mon, 2020-01-27 at 12:22 +0000, Magnus Westerlund wrote: > > > > WG, > > > > > > > > Below you will find the draft charter text proposed by ADs and > WG chairs. > > > I > > > > intended to have the IESG agree to send this out for External > Review at > > > the > > > > next > > > > IESG meeting (2020-02-06). So if you have any comments and > proposal for > > > > changes > > > > now is a good time. > > > > > > > > Below is a copy of the current draft in the datatracker: > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-quic/ > > > > > > > > Diff: > > > > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2F= doc%2Fcharter-ietf-quic%2Fwithmilestones-01.txt&url2=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatatr= acker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-quic%2Fwithmilestones-01-00.txt > > > > > > > > QUIC WG Draft Charter (01-00) > > > > > > > > The QUIC working group will provide standards-track > specifications for a > > > > UDP- > > > > based, stream-multiplexing, encrypted transport protocol, based > on > > > > pre- > > > > standardization implementation and deployment experience. > > > > > > > > Key goals for QUIC are: > > > > > > > > - Minimizing connection establishment and overall transport > latency for > > > > applications, starting with HTTP/2; - Providing multiplexing > without > > > > head-of-line blocking; - Requiring only changes to path > endpoints to > > > enable > > > > deployment; - Enabling multipath and forward error correction > extensions; > > > and > > > > - > > > > Providing always-secure transport, using TLS 1.3 by default. > > > > > > > > The work of the group will have five main focus areas, > corresponding to > > > five > > > > core deliverables. > > > > > > > > The first of these is the core transport work, which will > describe the > > > wire > > > > format, along with the mechanisms for connection establishment, > stream > > > > multiplexing, data reliability, loss detection and recovery, > congestion > > > > control, and options negotiation. Work on congestion control > will describe > > > use > > > > of a standardized congestion controller as a default scheme for > QUIC. > > > Defining > > > > new congestion control schemes is explicitly out of scope for > this group. > > > QUIC > > > > is expected to support rapid, distributed development and > testing of > > > features. > > > > > > > > The second of these focus areas is security. This work will > describe how > > > the > > > > protocol uses TLS 1.3 for key negotiation and will also describ= e > how those > > > > keys > > > > are used to provide confidentiality and integrity protection of > both > > > > application data and QUIC headers. This work will ensure that > QUIC has > > > > security > > > > and privacy properties that are at least as good as a stack > composed of > > > TLS > > > > 1.3 > > > > using TCP (or MPTCP when using multipath). > > > > > > > > The third focus area will describe mappings between specific > application > > > > protocols and the transport facilities of QUIC. The first > mapping will be > > > a > > > > description of HTTP/2 semantics using QUIC, specifically with > the goal of > > > > minimizing web latency using QUIC. This mapping will accommodat= e > the > > > extension > > > > mechanisms defined in the HTTP/2 specification. Upon completion > of that > > > > mapping, additional protocols may be added by updating this > charter to > > > include > > > > them, or working elsewhere. > > > > > > > > The fourth focus area will be on extensions to core protocol > facilities, > > > to > > > > enable datagram delivery, version negotiation, and multipath > > > capabilities.. > > > > Other extensions are out of the scope of this charter. > > > > > > > > The fifth focus area will provide an Applicability and > Manageability > > > > Statement, > > > > describing how, and under what circumstances, QUIC may be safel= y > used, and > > > > describing deployment and manageability implications of the > protocol. > > > > Additionally, the Working Group will delivery a mechanism to > assist load > > > > balancers in their handling of QUIC. > > > > > > delivery -> deliver > > > > > > > > Current practices for network management of transport protocols > include > > > the > > > > ability to apply access control lists (ACLs), hashing of flows > for equal- > > > cost > > > > multipath routing (ECMP), directional signaling of flows, > signaling of > > > flow > > > > setup and teardown, and the ability to export information about > flows for > > > > accounting purposes. The QUIC protocol need not be defined to > enable each > > > of > > > > these abilities, or enable them in the same way as they are > enabled by TCP > > > > when > > > > used with TLS 1.3, but the working group must consider the > impact of the > > > > protocol on network management practices, reflecting the tensio= ns > > > described in > > > > RFC 7258. > > > > > > > > Note that consensus is required both for changes to the current > protocol > > > > mechanisms and retention of current mechanisms. In particular, > because > > > > something is in the initial document set does not imply that > there is > > > > consensus > > > > around the feature or around how it is specified. > > > > > > I think the above paragraph should now be removed. > > > > > > > > > > The QUIC working group will work closely with the HTTPbis > working group, > > > > especially on the QUIC mapping for HTTP/2. > > > > > -- > Cheers > > Magnus Westerlund > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------= - > Networks, Ericsson Research > ---------------------------------------------------------------------= - > Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 > <+46%2010%20714%2082%2087> > Torshamnsgatan 23 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 > <+46%2073%20094%2090%2079> > SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------= - > > > > > --0000000000008752ba059d388623 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 2:04 PM Rober= to Peon <fenix@fb.com> wrote:
=
Pretty sure I'v= e been a strong cheerleader for avoiding distractions to V1, so you won'= ;t hear disagreements there.
Since we want to make V1 happen, we haven't been discussing V2 stuff. Datagrams aren't V1 stuff. Worse, datagrams are certainly in the same s= phere of stuff as is partial reliability, and so having it now as a 'QU= IC' wg draft is going to make the V2 stuff harder in several ways.

This is the root of my concern.

We're too early to adopt Datagrams as an official document, imho, even = as an extension, because doing so makes it more difficult to get the more c= omplete thing done, which we've been avoiding solely to get V1 done.

I'm unclear on why you think Datagram= s make it more difficult to complete v1?=C2=A0 =C2=A0Aside from a few peopl= e writing the draft and this charter conversation, the working group has sp= ent almost no time on them.=C2=A0 I also don't believe they add complic= ation to the core spec.



-=3DR


=EF=BB=BFOn 1/28/20, 2:32 AM, "Magnus Westerlund" <magnus.westerlund@= ericsson.com> wrote:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Roberto,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 On Mon, 2020-01-27 at 21:28 +0000, Roberto Peon wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Quite frankly, if we=E2=80=99re proposing to allow exten= sions for datagrams, but not
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > partial reliability, I don=E2=80=99t understand the moti= vation and I won=E2=80=99t support it.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Is that the case here, =E2=80=98cause we=E2=80=99re not = explicitly talking about it at all
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > with the proposed change?

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 To my understanding partial reliability for datagrams do not = require
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 standardization on protocol level. This is a feature that giv= en datagram frames
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 in QUIC packets that has PSN that will be acknowledged can be= implemented sender
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 side with the appropriate API. If the WG think there are aspe= ct of this that
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 would benefit from description and alignment on API semnatics= then we can
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 include that later. However, I don't see it as anyway nec= essary in this small
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 update. And if you think this is something that requires actu= al specification
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 then I would encourage you to ensure that those pieces are wr= itten up as a draft
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 for discussion.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 And as Mike already stated there will be a bigger recharterin= g later when the v1
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 specifications are done.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Cheers

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Magnus

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > -=3DR
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > From: QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Mike Bishop &l= t;
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > mbishop@evequefou.be>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Date: Monday, January 27, 2020 at 10:06 AM
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > To: Ian Swett <ianswett=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, = Magnus Westerlund <
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > magnus.westerlund=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Cc: "quic@ietf.org" <quic@ietf.org>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Subject: RE: Proposed Charter Text
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > This is true, but has also been a useful guide to our wo= rk on HTTP/3.=C2=A0 As you
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > note, =E2=80=9CHTTP/2 semantics=E2=80=9D isn=E2=80=99t r= eally a thing =E2=80=93 HTTP/2 is a mapping of HTTP
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > semantics over TCP =E2=80=93 but we=E2=80=99ve interpret= ed this as saying that HTTP/3 by
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > default has the same feature set as HTTP/2.=C2=A0 We=E2= =80=99ve required consensus in both
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > QUIC and HTTP working groups to deviate from that (e.g. = priorities).
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Clarifying that language wouldn=E2=80=99t be inappropria= te, but also isn=E2=80=99t closely
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > bound to the point of this update.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Depends how much we want to fix existing text, just like= any other PR, I
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > suppose.=C2=A0 =F0=9F=98=8A
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Other feedback:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Formatting nit:=C2=A0 Your =E2=80=9Ckey goals=E2=80=9D b= ullet points are folded into a single
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > mishmash paragraph
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > With the removal of the mention of the initial documents= , do we need the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > discussion about how we decide what to keep/change from = those initial
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > documents?
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > From: QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Ian Swett
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Sent: Monday, January 27, 2020 9:25 AM
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > To: Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund=3D40ericsson.com@dma= rc.ietf.org>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Cc: q= uic@ietf.org
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Subject: Re: Proposed Charter Text
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Thanks for the update.=C2=A0 The original charter mentio= ns HTTP/2 multiple times,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > but except for when it's in reference to extensions,= I think it would be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > preferable to use HTTP instead of HTTP/2.=C2=A0 For exam= ple, "The first mapping
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > will be a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > description of HTTP/2 semantics using QUIC," and=C2= =A0 "especially on the QUIC
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > mapping for HTTP/2" are quite odd now that HTTP/3 i= s it's own thing which
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > shares very little with HTTP/2.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > And two small comments below.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Ian
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 9:07 AM Magnus Westerlund < =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > magnus.westerlund=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Hi,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Due to the reshuffeling it may be hard to see exact= ly what is changing. So
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > clarify in text what is being changed.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > The big change is to allow work on three "exte= nsion": Version Negotiation,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > datagram (these two are listed under fourth focus a= rea) and how to better
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > support load balancers (fifth focus area).
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Otherwise the changes are:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > - removal of the initial input drafts to base the w= ork on in first
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > paragraph.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > - Reshuffling of the paragraphs, the one "curr= ent practices for network
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > management ..." is moved down.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > - Removal of pragaraph regarding interim during fir= st year.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > - Removal of stand alone paragraph preventing exten= sion work. The no other
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > extensions is now baked into paragraph on fourth fo= cus area.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > - Clarification that mapping work may also be done = outside of QUIC WG.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Cheers
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Magnus Westerlund
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > On Mon, 2020-01-27 at 12:22 +0000, Magnus Westerlun= d wrote:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > WG,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > Below you will find the draft charter text pro= posed by ADs and WG chairs.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > I
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > intended to have the IESG agree to send this o= ut for External Review at
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > next
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > IESG meeting (2020-02-06). So if you have any = comments and proposal for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > changes
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > now is a good time.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > Below is a copy of the current draft in the da= tatracker:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > https://datatracker.= ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-quic/
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > Diff:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.= org/rfcdiff?url1=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-= quic%2Fwithmilestones-01.txt&url2=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%= 2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-quic%2Fwithmilestones-01-00.txt
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > QUIC WG Draft Charter (01-00)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > The QUIC working group will provide standards-= track specifications for a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > UDP-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > based, stream-multiplexing, encrypted transpor= t protocol, based on
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > pre-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > standardization implementation and deployment = experience.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > Key goals for QUIC are:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > - Minimizing connection establishment and over= all transport latency for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > applications, starting with HTTP/2; - Providin= g multiplexing without
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > head-of-line blocking; - Requiring only change= s to path endpoints to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > enable
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > deployment; - Enabling multipath and forward e= rror correction extensions;
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > -
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > Providing always-secure transport, using TLS 1= .3 by default.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > The work of the group will have five main focu= s areas, corresponding to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > five
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > core deliverables.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > The first of these is the core transport work,= which will describe the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > wire
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > format, along with the mechanisms for connecti= on establishment, stream
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > multiplexing, data reliability, loss detection= and recovery, congestion
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > control, and options negotiation. Work on cong= estion control will describe
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > use
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > of a standardized congestion controller as a d= efault scheme for QUIC.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Defining
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > new congestion control schemes is explicitly o= ut of scope for this group.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > QUIC
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > is expected to support rapid, distributed deve= lopment and testing of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > features.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > The second of these focus areas is security. T= his work will describe how
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > protocol uses TLS 1.3 for key negotiation and = will also describe how those
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > keys
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > are used to provide confidentiality and integr= ity protection of both
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > application data and QUIC headers. This work w= ill ensure that QUIC has
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > security
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > and privacy properties that are at least as go= od as a stack composed of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > TLS
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > 1.3
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > using TCP (or MPTCP when using multipath).
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > The third focus area will describe mappings be= tween specific application
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > protocols and the transport facilities of QUIC= . The first mapping will be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > description of HTTP/2 semantics using QUIC, sp= ecifically with the goal of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > minimizing web latency using QUIC. This mappin= g will accommodate the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > extension
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > mechanisms defined in the HTTP/2 specification= . Upon completion of that
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > mapping, additional protocols may be added by = updating this charter to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > include
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > them, or working elsewhere.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > The fourth focus area will be on extensions to= core protocol facilities,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > enable datagram delivery, version negotiation,= and multipath
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > capabilities..
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > Other extensions are out of the scope of this = charter.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > The fifth focus area will provide an Applicabi= lity and Manageability
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > Statement,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > describing how, and under what circumstances, = QUIC may be safely used, and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > describing deployment and manageability implic= ations of the protocol.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > Additionally, the Working Group will delivery = a mechanism to assist load
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > balancers in their handling of QUIC.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > delivery -> deliver
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > Current practices for network management of tr= ansport protocols include
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > ability to apply access control lists (ACLs), = hashing of flows for equal-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > cost
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > multipath routing (ECMP), directional signalin= g of flows, signaling of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > flow
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > setup and teardown, and the ability to export = information about flows for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > accounting purposes. The QUIC protocol need no= t be defined to enable each
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > these abilities, or enable them in the same wa= y as they are enabled by TCP
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > when
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > used with TLS 1.3, but the working group must = consider the impact of the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > protocol on network management practices, refl= ecting the tensions
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > described in
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > RFC 7258.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > Note that consensus is required both for chang= es to the current protocol
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > mechanisms and retention of current mechanisms= . In particular, because
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > something is in the initial document set does = not imply that there is
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > consensus
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > around the feature or around how it is specifi= ed.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I think the above paragraph should now be removed.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 >=C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > The QUIC working group will work closely with = the HTTPbis working group,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > > especially on the QUIC mapping for HTTP/2.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > >
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 --
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Cheers

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Magnus Westerlund


=C2=A0 =C2=A0 -------------------------------------------------------------= ---------
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Networks, Ericsson Research
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 -------------------------------------------------------------= ---------
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Ericsson AB=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Phone=C2=A0 +46 10 7148287
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Torshamnsgatan 23=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| M= obile +46 73 0949079
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 -------------------------------------------------------------= ---------




--0000000000008752ba059d388623-- From nobody Tue Jan 28 11:59:00 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietf.org Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99CE612007C; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 11:58:55 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: quic@ietf.org Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-quic-load-balancers-00.txt X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.116.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quic@ietf.org Message-ID: <158024153536.4587.960303563728733024@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 11:58:55 -0800 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 19:58:56 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the QUIC WG of the IETF. Title : QUIC-LB: Generating Routable QUIC Connection IDs Authors : Martin Duke Nick Banks Filename : draft-ietf-quic-load-balancers-00.txt Pages : 31 Date : 2020-01-28 Abstract: QUIC connection IDs allow continuation of connections across address/ port 4-tuple changes, and can store routing information for stateless or low-state load balancers. They also can prevent linkability of connections across deliberate address migration through the use of protected communications between client and server. This creates issues for load-balancing intermediaries. This specification standardizes methods for encoding routing information and proposes an optional protocol called QUIC-LB to exchange the parameters of that encoding. This framework also enables offload of other QUIC functions to trusted intermediaries, given the explicit cooperation of the QUIC server. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-quic-load-balancers/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-quic-load-balancers-00 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-quic-load-balancers-00 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Tue Jan 28 13:08:23 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D8AB1200A3 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 13:08:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KSa4cAVqFGnw for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 13:08:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x22a.google.com (mail-lj1-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A6F68120013 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 13:08:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x22a.google.com with SMTP id h23so16202632ljc.8 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 13:08:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=UFXMxlmUy37YVkVocPtwtqIwH6fxZ53gsbFoMJHaGaY=; b=MdKv7yLjxtS0ZJ20mV+03unZl7gE9HiWV831n8zyCHDRwX+l59KhV6x07/BxJ2/cAg 3IcbmNDxamrO/3JsNWen1SGl96y4+b0T6KjpbcYcq3T94sTznZ+S13hCrj/dmboNKob7 yZ86XBocv1euGEfZ0KM9n4D69lZV4sfiC6gK/ekkCYMnjtFZjjnLirDH6lbBYlWLncHx hy2ioVpYI5httrq2RenHmu6reAULHS9SzTSPUuJbqWZtVeumLC/mfDVNOZvR6ufxJm31 Y2oI/VMjNCVKwFJMzgLvFTWn7csXYM1+Gpxq0OGukdnmLjgj9QInp7ASrvLDGg5DrST6 qftw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=UFXMxlmUy37YVkVocPtwtqIwH6fxZ53gsbFoMJHaGaY=; b=T2DRjn3QiYMr3g3jEVFV4HTVDJmYd/tpFNvuBUYfLOWdm99ywVMoXY5CLRAFnEjYPQ C+IFJSH5ekuDM5mTRA+CQ62nrEelREcxFepayv1Qfq0zeqYkiwv88XSG8u5wIi7AmaJL R4S3KgNRrd9RrqEQDvpu8FZfl3LOsDNXp8MaKSEMU0DXig9X5Lbe+YSEOz7ZenuV34U3 o1aesy7hcPYkqxgexJ4uVsEWGUpg1w7g4ZSrWajvMN91PPOzKvaq99aJThpj1TywQAMW M09hjfVVlkS6oyZxapubIr2jHIPKeGD7meBtpbnolz8MJN6QwbvVXqoYP92R4p6XJ4eG HwEw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVZ0ZlAjOHphl6z7sDsMeLeP5oLKygJxQ/SFPEEpkR56GbPUNfG q9te1cLADPczrw+h+aYwKYaHK6JWLqeVREDDzLM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqx1vALgyLk7tQoCK4Qu0PFY/+NGjdF5E1KCdYsAFvhjNh5H/+kMISna+xMudQ549vui48du+6LrXWbaxTBu0Uk= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9e85:: with SMTP id f5mr15622704ljk.132.1580245696794; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 13:08:16 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200127135053.GB19655@ubuntu-dmitri> <20200127184007.GC19655@ubuntu-dmitri> In-Reply-To: From: Jana Iyengar Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 13:08:05 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Proposed extension for delayed acknowledgments To: Lucas Pardue Cc: Mike Bishop , Matt Joras , QUIC WG , Ian Swett Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006a5538059d399fc6" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 21:08:20 -0000 --0000000000006a5538059d399fc6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 11:44 AM Lucas Pardue wrote: > > On Tue, 28 Jan 2020, 19:28 Jana Iyengar, wrote: > > Given the space available, I think informal agreement among implementers >> (as we're doing here and now) is probably adequate. Let's not set another >> system up in preparation for the provisional registry that ought to happen >> Real Soon Now. >> > > My observation was that of all the available space, none were selected. It > doesn't seem too onerous a habit for 00 drafts to pick a value and replace > IANA TBD sections with value and status fields. It might be squatting but > in practice aliases with the registration process pretty well. > Fair enough, and I agree. --0000000000006a5538059d399fc6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 11:44 AM Lucas Pa= rdue <lucaspardue.24.7@gma= il.com> wrote:

On Tue, 28 Jan 20= 20, 19:28 Jana Iyengar, <jri.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

Given the s= pace available, I think informal agreement among implementers (as we're= doing here and now) is probably adequate. Let's not set another system= up in preparation for the provisional registry that ought to happen Real S= oon Now.

My observation was that of all the available space, non= e were selected. It doesn't seem too onerous a habit for 00 drafts to p= ick a value and replace IANA TBD sections with value and status fields. It = might be squatting but in practice aliases with the registration process pr= etty well.

Fair enough, and I a= gree.
--0000000000006a5538059d399fc6-- From nobody Tue Jan 28 15:26:57 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C2B5120104 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 15:26:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -17.5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-17.5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lKxwY4aa-ySP for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 15:26:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr1-x42e.google.com (mail-wr1-x42e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A039A1200EB for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 15:26:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr1-x42e.google.com with SMTP id j104so2184190wrj.7 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 15:26:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=5rGdlgTyiYCatlDb3PvvW1jtZgv7G8fvpBGVhdO7mII=; b=YK32TIm1x5SghF2kwy1Dr9nHKbusXFFSY2e6VbcbRbd1emX7rHfJ+6eRMmjT/R2PzE 8zr/umke7HCShgJ2gGfLCllrV8tXOrRkp3FJMrEHVbLL5UHSY4+svddPfM8sJexy7V+D K/FmZfjkAGfmijde2mJSwZKBaDDmT5tWelcsCcuQSaEvFeXNlcAX4ekOGL4A1CEoLPOo YgBNnH6MTNbPbA5WPaQM4sAtkTdiRolmd0ZSScoRCKhcRzbVI9IdqbOEKKlHtZDLb6pU 6DEqdws+oSTqVpHEoXQrfzFwjgooyv2wN3MRG47EmAM+/nNFS8PYV8pqeOkc8PJ4GsIA YqFQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=5rGdlgTyiYCatlDb3PvvW1jtZgv7G8fvpBGVhdO7mII=; b=YMJrcqNhgaP1djkWPWqL6l16i45zzZkKrH4ceTLqNCF2axw82sNKXxc6FU1CYYINNY 4T8jMYaIZX6G43BFjvc2Yyk6hCJ6HgVquCBoEK2IB6ytBNiEkF1WwBBb2IvZOpsHPkFM AxWqrlKF7Q6lA3xUOa5cKbgIzVu52tSfVLsIogfd4XtFqiLpyj+75GOmqttlEj6ou3JO SBsFHGG8d+/hw/9ViilnYhJ5Yg8X0FQV8gGCDuuKmRYen0U3TRHzn9TSSx8rbXFs1YnF mJVKOD47xn7TXrAdDcAgIr5Q1ONqpg7pvFSTNh3zCn3c11enha2xNxUvxvaEOzk2bHfx MK9Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUOKBsOKPsThxDY/mDEks5SbRyt2v2undXJkHEhmZtQG5NHrEaZ jJ85buiOINSQHonRZ0oIHsKFpo12p+D+2UdkERK850dBTEc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyPhEwk7eMkLF1QiSyJbvavSs9zu7fStf3pLHYW8eXSC6rwM5MaGfSKshO8pVnyREgbnN/kSlkY1DxEUNtVBfc= X-Received: by 2002:adf:dd52:: with SMTP id u18mr30529768wrm.131.1580254012830; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 15:26:52 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <431df6637385ca6eb762a4c26b697fd936148543.camel@ericsson.com> <2966511B-93C8-4798-BB56-A8FAE76E91F0@fb.com> In-Reply-To: From: Ryan Hamilton Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 15:26:39 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Proposed Charter Text To: Ian Swett Cc: Roberto Peon , Magnus Westerlund , "quic@ietf.org" , "mbishop@evequefou.be" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000173f81059d3b8f1e" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 23:26:56 -0000 --000000000000173f81059d3b8f1e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 11:49 AM Ian Swett wrote: > On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 2:04 PM Roberto Peon wrote: > >> Pretty sure I've been a strong cheerleader for avoiding distractions to >> V1, so you won't hear disagreements there. >> Since we want to make V1 happen, we haven't been discussing V2 stuff. >> Datagrams aren't V1 stuff. Worse, datagrams are certainly in the same >> sphere of stuff as is partial reliability, and so having it now as a 'QUIC' >> wg draft is going to make the V2 stuff harder in several ways. >> >> This is the root of my concern. >> >> We're too early to adopt Datagrams as an official document, imho, even as >> an extension, because doing so makes it more difficult to get the more >> complete thing done, which we've been avoiding solely to get V1 done. >> > > I'm unclear on why you think Datagrams make it more difficult to complete > v1? Aside from a few people writing the draft and this charter > conversation, the working group has spent almost no time on them. I also > don't believe they add complication to the core spec. > Completely agree. The spec and the mechanism are quite simple. I have a hard time understanding how they would cause the core spec to be delayed. --000000000000173f81059d3b8f1e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 11:49 AM Ian Swett <ianswett=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org= > wrote:
On Tu= e, Jan 28, 2020 at 2:04 PM Roberto Peon <fenix@fb.com> wrote:
= Pretty sure I've been a strong cheerleader for avoiding distractions to= V1, so you won't hear disagreements there.
Since we want to make V1 happen, we haven't been discussing V2 stuff. Datagrams aren't V1 stuff. Worse, datagrams are certainly in the same s= phere of stuff as is partial reliability, and so having it now as a 'QU= IC' wg draft is going to make the V2 stuff harder in several ways.

This is the root of my concern.

We're too early to adopt Datagrams as an official document, imho, even = as an extension, because doing so makes it more difficult to get the more c= omplete thing done, which we've been avoiding solely to get V1 done.

I'm unclear on why you think Datagram= s make it more difficult to complete v1?=C2=A0 =C2=A0Aside from a few peopl= e writing the draft and this charter conversation, the working group has sp= ent almost no time on them.=C2=A0 I also don't believe they add complic= ation to the core spec.

Completely agree. The spec and the mechanism are quite simple. I have= a hard time understanding how they would cause the core spec to be delayed= .
--000000000000173f81059d3b8f1e-- From nobody Tue Jan 28 15:58:32 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CFFD1200FF for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 15:58:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pAn8pyANzJyU for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 15:58:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ua1-x935.google.com (mail-ua1-x935.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::935]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ECB0A1200EB for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 15:58:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ua1-x935.google.com with SMTP id y3so5537895uae.3 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 15:58:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=w3fiCYq4pTibbKkL23Y/YQHXAC/T31COmE4GZCwd3Hw=; b=Yk43dTh4IQVUDOq0klubeClCmE3giN8Zq8nPBLJiU2Yi+9Oq4lxYrkbNkr6ZLnIln6 zH9oQmFO6lTttYC4MW4zectOLkA/fQea9Y9sMkGE6zw0osFPo/gOzf0x3lJ+P50a3kbS ZaHwS8duynuZG/CBk4vGGdi0acXZcTulKlOW/OB+PuFQtrdjcEhXIhFp3BsHenjY5Byz VAQDfHKGOz6uAFR/P4vyaBS7WSRAOOOozGfxw7k2FNnYB+Dlc0rbYL7UgrbG/Sh2e+GP ELTbSOGydMmHWwMpeg/M09WhHIz77Zztw3Pk+zErUBnmFIN4JiZg9UyVU4rqYmrDw1K4 0BiA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=w3fiCYq4pTibbKkL23Y/YQHXAC/T31COmE4GZCwd3Hw=; b=o3RFUum/FBfSqWNJmre11rMdctEOVYDMTz7y+Deg8riBzsXJUFnnxIgc0oVEUKddDz RCAyJ34o7T3Ju9CvHzsA5Y40rRlo97yx1Evj5vEC7zZZ+JAYMRTTAx6NPtLZxqYfbKAF gzh79kP0HUI+nk9eVruWwO5V2ly12Ot41OGCpST6o810gIP2gUw36lG3oRByHr1JEdTN 2HB29gMUhEm+LRRt96/rXQtZ+V24ZGSvK4RANSNg2D5LmGXYD5r2YTVjtcKvvl5FDXKg Fnxk0WhkJk3IMs2dxBvrXVGdJH8nsajXK8MfTkzd9iwL6zvUBuig4pg228QARUIFj7/x BA2w== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAV1ifuPx+lsb9KcAHpyNjqBG+MT6TEnx42e7tUIhrh5Lf1oM/Fj s5rbM+MmxkdnWPpjGb0nrvHPGkrIU/vA7FBmVZw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxRXvXPWmz53C6drzdewMJARzCIjlVToRpTAl2hq2VIF0U4lFnGUfyXgBAc20qG3CPRGsdM7nR7EKXY8xjYVOw= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:471a:: with SMTP id h26mr15482610uac.34.1580255908069; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 15:58:28 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200124222434.GA8279@ubuntu-dmitri> <7b228c14-c0d3-6458-77ab-945e713ef429@huitema.net> <20200125135411.GA19655@ubuntu-dmitri> In-Reply-To: From: Kazuho Oku Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 08:58:17 +0900 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Alternative ways to keeps ODCID on the server To: Christian Huitema Cc: Marten Seemann , Ian Swett , IETF QUIC WG , Dmitri Tikhonov Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000e05e3059d3c00e0" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 23:58:31 -0000 --0000000000000e05e3059d3c00e0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=8828=E6=97=A5(=E7=81=AB) 15:45 Christian Huitema : > But then, the client that responded to a retry will fail the connection i= f > the ODCID parameter is not there. There are two alternative in the bad > token scenario: good faith client with an obsolete new token, or client > that received a bad faith retry. In the first case, there is no harm > completing the connection. In the second case, the client will drop it so > there is only a modest issue of temporary resource allocation. > While I agree that the two scenarios being described here are the possibilities, I now tend to agree that the MAY can be dropped. Previously, I missed the fact that ODCID has to be carried as a TP (as correctly pointed out by Marten and Dmitri). Regarding attack scenarios, I'd argue that it would be awkward for an attacker to only send a spoofed packet to the server-side, when a malicious middlebox can also send a packet to the client. I'd also argue that there are many other ways of spoofing a client-sent Initial packet, and that having a defense just for retry tokens does not change the picture. Therefore, I think dropping the MAY is fine. I think a server can continue to ignore the retry token when it assumes that it was spoofed, but my take is that it's not worth writing it down. > On 1/27/2020 8:35 PM, Marten Seemann wrote: > > The client knows if it used a NEW_TOKEN token. More specifically, the > client knows if it received and responded to a Retry packet. > > On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 11:21 AM Christian Huitema > wrote: > >> >> On 1/27/2020 7:11 PM, Marten Seemann wrote: >> >> > That's actually what I implemented. If the token can be verified, acce= pt >> > the connection, treat it as validated. If it cannot be verified, check >> > whether the token is necessary, e.g., would any incoming connection >> > trigger retry. If it is necessary, drop the connection; if not >> > necessary, continue as if no token was there. >> >> Doesn't that defeat the purpose of the original_connection_id transport >> parameter? We introduced it to prevent middleboxes from performing a Ret= ry. >> With this logic, a middlebox could perform a Retry, and then corrupt the >> token on the second Initial to trick the server into accepting the >> connection. >> Furthermore, client implementation will check for the >> original_connection_id TP, and fail the connection if this TP is missing= . >> >> The spec also has language that I'd interpret as forbidding this: >> If the server sends a Retry packet, it MUST include the Destination >> Connection ID field from the client's first Initial packet in the transp= ort >> parameter. >> >> How do you reconcile that requirement with the "NEW TOKEN" mechanism? If >> the Initial packet carries a NEW TOKEN, it will be accepted and there wo= n't >> be any ODCID transport parameter. >> >> -- Christian Huitema >> > --=20 Kazuho Oku --0000000000000e05e3059d3c00e0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=8828=E6=97=A5(= =E7=81=AB) 15:45 Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>:
=20 =20 =20

But then, the client that responded to a retry will fail the connection if the ODCID parameter is not there. There are two alternative in the bad token scenario: good faith client with an obsolete new token, or client that received a bad faith retry. In the first case, there is no harm completing the connection. In the second case, the client will drop it so there is only a modest issue of temporary resource allocation.


While I agree that the two scenarios being described here = are the possibilities, I now tend to agree that the MAY can be dropped. Pre= viously, I missed the fact that ODCID has to be carried as a TP (as correct= ly pointed out by Marten and Dmitri).

Regarding at= tack scenarios, I'd argue that it would be awkward for an attacker to o= nly send a spoofed packet to the server-side, when a malicious middlebox ca= n also send a packet to the client. I'd also argue that there are many = other ways of spoofing a client-sent Initial packet, and that having a defe= nse just for retry tokens does not change the picture.

=
Therefore, I think dropping the MAY is fine. I think a server can cont= inue to ignore the retry token when it assumes that it was spoofed, but my = take is that it's not worth writing it down.

On 1/27/2020 8:35 PM, Marten Seemann wrote:
=20
The client knows if it used a NEW_TOKEN token. More specifically, the client knows if it received and responded to a Retry packet.

On Tue, Jan 28, 2020 at 11:21 AM Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net> wrote:


On 1/27/2020 7:11 PM, Marten Seemann wrote:
> That's actually what I implemented. If the token can be verified, accept
> the connection, treat it as validated. If it cannot be verified, check
> whether the token is necessary, e.g., would any incoming connection
> trigger retry. If it is necessary, drop the connection; if not
> necessary, continue as if no token was there.

Doesn't that defeat the purpose of the original_connection_id transport parameter? We introduced it to prevent middleboxes from performing a Retry.
With this logic, a middlebox could perform a Retry, and then corrupt the token on the second Initial to trick the server into accepting the connection.
Furthermore, client implementation will check for the original_connection_id TP, and fail the connection if this TP is missing.

The spec also has language that I'd interpret as forbidding this:
If the server sends a Retry packet, it MUST include the Destination Connection ID field from the client's first Initial packet in the transport parameter.

How do you reconcile that requirement with the "NEW TOKEN" mechanism? If the Initial packet carries a NEW TOKEN, it will be accepted and there won't be any ODCID transport parameter.

-- Christian Huitema



--
Kazuho Oku
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Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 12:20:41 -0000 --=-r+BC5BQGnhSlK85Kh1qt Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 2020-01-27 at 16:36 +0000, Mike Bishop wrote: > This is true, but has also been a useful guide to our work on HTTP/3. As= you > note, =E2=80=9CHTTP/2 semantics=E2=80=9D isn=E2=80=99t really a thing =E2= =80=93 HTTP/2 is a mapping of HTTP > semantics over TCP =E2=80=93 but we=E2=80=99ve interpreted this as saying= that HTTP/3 by > default has the same feature set as HTTP/2. We=E2=80=99ve required conse= nsus in both > QUIC and HTTP working groups to deviate from that (e.g. priorities).=20 > Clarifying that language wouldn=E2=80=99t be inappropriate, but also isn= =E2=80=99t closely > bound to the point of this update. I agree that the HTTP/2 looks a bit strange. However, I think I will leave = it in place as there quite a bit to reword. Lets deal this in the next recharter = when maybe some of this text may not even be needed.=20 > =20 > Depends how much we want to fix existing text, just like any other PR, I > suppose. =F0=9F=98=8A > =20 > Other feedback: > Formatting nit: Your =E2=80=9Ckey goals=E2=80=9D bullet points are folde= d into a single > mishmash paragraph In the editing view in the datatracker they are nice individual lines. So I think it is some output reflowing that occurs. Will attempt to add some whi= te spaces to see if it looks better.=20 > With the removal of the mention of the initial documents, do we need the > discussion about how we decide what to keep/change from those initial > documents? So when initially chartered it was an indication of the starting point. How= ever, three years down the line I would think all decision has been made about wh= at to keep and not from the input. And any change to the drafts today should not = be based on the argument, this was part of the individual drafts and therefore should be added/changed.=20 Cheers Magnus > =20 > From: QUIC On Behalf Of Ian Swett > Sent: Monday, January 27, 2020 9:25 AM > To: Magnus Westerlund > Cc: quic@ietf.org > Subject: Re: Proposed Charter Text > =20 > Thanks for the update. The original charter mentions HTTP/2 multiple tim= es, > but except for when it's in reference to extensions, I think it would be > preferable to use HTTP instead of HTTP/2. For example, "The first mappin= g > will be a > description of HTTP/2 semantics using QUIC," and "especially on the QUIC > mapping for HTTP/2" are quite odd now that HTTP/3 is it's own thing which > shares very little with HTTP/2. > =20 > And two small comments below. > =20 > Ian > =20 > On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 9:07 AM Magnus Westerlund < > magnus.westerlund=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > Hi, > >=20 > > Due to the reshuffeling it may be hard to see exactly what is changing.= So > > to > > clarify in text what is being changed.=20 > >=20 > > The big change is to allow work on three "extension": Version Negotiati= on, > > datagram (these two are listed under fourth focus area) and how to bett= er > > support load balancers (fifth focus area).=20 > >=20 > > Otherwise the changes are: > > - removal of the initial input drafts to base the work on in first > > paragraph. > > - Reshuffling of the paragraphs, the one "current practices for network > > management ..." is moved down.=20 > > - Removal of pragaraph regarding interim during first year.=20 > > - Removal of stand alone paragraph preventing extension work. The no ot= her > > extensions is now baked into paragraph on fourth focus area.=20 > > - Clarification that mapping work may also be done outside of QUIC WG.= =20 > >=20 > > Cheers > >=20 > > Magnus Westerlund > >=20 > > On Mon, 2020-01-27 at 12:22 +0000, Magnus Westerlund wrote: > > > WG, > > >=20 > > > Below you will find the draft charter text proposed by ADs and WG cha= irs. > > I > > > intended to have the IESG agree to send this out for External Review = at > > the > > > next > > > IESG meeting (2020-02-06). So if you have any comments and proposal f= or > > > changes > > > now is a good time.=20 > > >=20 > > > Below is a copy of the current draft in the datatracker: > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-quic/ > > >=20 > > > Diff:=20 > > >=20 > >=20 https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdo= c%2Fcharter-ietf-quic%2Fwithmilestones-01.txt&url2=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatatrac= ker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-quic%2Fwithmilestones-01-00.txt > > >=20 > > > QUIC WG Draft Charter (01-00) > > >=20 > > > The QUIC working group will provide standards-track specifications fo= r a > > > UDP- > > > based, stream-multiplexing, encrypted transport protocol, based on > > > pre- > > > standardization implementation and deployment experience. > > >=20 > > > Key goals for QUIC are: > > >=20 > > > - Minimizing connection establishment and overall transport latency f= or > > > applications, starting with HTTP/2; - Providing multiplexing without > > > head-of-line blocking; - Requiring only changes to path endpoints to > > enable > > > deployment; - Enabling multipath and forward error correction extensi= ons; > > and > > > - > > > Providing always-secure transport, using TLS 1.3 by default. > > >=20 > > > The work of the group will have five main focus areas, corresponding = to > > five > > > core deliverables. > > >=20 > > > The first of these is the core transport work, which will describe th= e > > wire > > > format, along with the mechanisms for connection establishment, strea= m > > > multiplexing, data reliability, loss detection and recovery, congesti= on > > > control, and options negotiation. Work on congestion control will des= cribe > > use > > > of a standardized congestion controller as a default scheme for QUIC. > > Defining > > > new congestion control schemes is explicitly out of scope for this gr= oup. > > QUIC > > > is expected to support rapid, distributed development and testing of > > features. > > >=20 > > > The second of these focus areas is security. This work will describe = how > > the > > > protocol uses TLS 1.3 for key negotiation and will also describe how = those > > > keys > > > are used to provide confidentiality and integrity protection of both > > > application data and QUIC headers. This work will ensure that QUIC ha= s > > > security > > > and privacy properties that are at least as good as a stack composed = of > > TLS > > > 1.3 > > > using TCP (or MPTCP when using multipath). > > >=20 > > > The third focus area will describe mappings between specific applicat= ion > > > protocols and the transport facilities of QUIC. The first mapping wil= l be > > a > > > description of HTTP/2 semantics using QUIC, specifically with the goa= l of > > > minimizing web latency using QUIC. This mapping will accommodate the > > extension > > > mechanisms defined in the HTTP/2 specification. Upon completion of th= at > > > mapping, additional protocols may be added by updating this charter t= o > > include > > > them, or working elsewhere. > > >=20 > > > The fourth focus area will be on extensions to core protocol faciliti= es, > > to > > > enable datagram delivery, version negotiation, and multipath > > capabilities.. > > > Other extensions are out of the scope of this charter. > > >=20 > > > The fifth focus area will provide an Applicability and Manageability > > > Statement, > > > describing how, and under what circumstances, QUIC may be safely used= , and > > > describing deployment and manageability implications of the protocol. > > > Additionally, the Working Group will delivery a mechanism to assist l= oad > > > balancers in their handling of QUIC. >=20 > =20 > delivery -> deliver=20 > > >=20 > > > Current practices for network management of transport protocols inclu= de > > the > > > ability to apply access control lists (ACLs), hashing of flows for eq= ual- > > cost > > > multipath routing (ECMP), directional signaling of flows, signaling o= f > > flow > > > setup and teardown, and the ability to export information about flows= for > > > accounting purposes. The QUIC protocol need not be defined to enable = each > > of > > > these abilities, or enable them in the same way as they are enabled b= y TCP > > > when > > > used with TLS 1.3, but the working group must consider the impact of = the > > > protocol on network management practices, reflecting the tensions > > described in > > > RFC 7258. > > >=20 > > > Note that consensus is required both for changes to the current proto= col > > > mechanisms and retention of current mechanisms. In particular, becaus= e > > > something is in the initial document set does not imply that there is > > > consensus > > > around the feature or around how it is specified. >=20 > =20 > I think the above paragraph should now be removed. > =20 > > >=20 > > > The QUIC working group will work closely with the HTTPbis working gro= up, > > > especially on the QUIC mapping for HTTP/2. > > >=20 --=20 Cheers Magnus Westerlund=20 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Networks, Ericsson Research ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Torshamnsgatan 23 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --=-r+BC5BQGnhSlK85Kh1qt Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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+0000 From: Magnus Westerlund To: "mirja.kuehlewind=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org" , "martin.h.duke@gmail.com" , "quic@ietf.org" Subject: Re: I-D Action: draft-ietf-quic-load-balancers-00.txt Thread-Topic: I-D Action: draft-ietf-quic-load-balancers-00.txt Thread-Index: AQHV1hVqikYBxO3VHU6VK6ujH7l4Y6gBV+QAgABI8wA= Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 13:17:51 +0000 Message-ID: <7a981f3d699723e432658d7c2d79035edcbfb8df.camel@ericsson.com> References: <158024153536.4587.960303563728733024@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: sv-SE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com; x-originating-ip: [158.174.130.211] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 37f3104c-1985-403f-8d4d-08d7a4bda4ac x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: DB7PR07MB6092: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; x-forefront-prvs: 02973C87BC 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 x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: dc/NJUY6iMmsajdDdqiJrke5ApHtMCQz1yzprTGGlg3hJBItlE7nvtcf+K2yb0CDdggoy8NN7pTxU3MLwk66z5c1OZktgyS1COVEKq1HwVK/OX+d7OAm217fYwvqeV4biVQzStj6ujlQmursMadQ3w== x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg="sha-256"; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; boundary="=-UIXLmpGbeEwM70uinISy" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 37f3104c-1985-403f-8d4d-08d7a4bda4ac X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 29 Jan 2020 13:17:51.4430 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: KcQRoSRBYdwbnwE86t6K7/B3l4VotsycAsyFZKs2ImN+B3mwRyU+G+kALZIGA8f8Jh99XIgu1NYqtP8hEvAM6x5RwOI8aFvzCHwzP6/QpQE= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB7PR07MB6092 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 13:17:56 -0000 --=-UIXLmpGbeEwM70uinISy Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, (as AD) This document should not have been posted as a WG document yet. The intenti= on was to complete the re-chartering and then adopt documents in a controlled fashion. It was submitted but not approved to be posted by any of the chair= s. We think it got posted due to the datatracker server outage recovery work.=20 Cheers Magnus On Wed, 2020-01-29 at 08:56 +0000, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: > Hi all, hi Martin, >=20 > This is now a working group document. I thought the plan was to move the > protocol part of this proposal to a separate draft. Is that still the pla= n? >=20 > Mirja >=20 >=20 >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 28.01.20, 20:59, "QUIC on behalf of internet-drafts@ietf.org"= < > quic-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of internet-drafts@ietf.org> wrote: >=20 > =20 > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > directories. > This draft is a work item of the QUIC WG of the IETF. > =20 > Title : QUIC-LB: Generating Routable QUIC Connectio= n IDs > Authors : Martin Duke > Nick Banks > Filename : draft-ietf-quic-load-balancers-00.txt > Pages : 31 > Date : 2020-01-28 > =20 > Abstract: > QUIC connection IDs allow continuation of connections across addre= ss/ > port 4-tuple changes, and can store routing information for statel= ess > or low-state load balancers. They also can prevent linkability of > connections across deliberate address migration through the use of > protected communications between client and server. This creates > issues for load-balancing intermediaries. This specification > standardizes methods for encoding routing information and proposes= an > optional protocol called QUIC-LB to exchange the parameters of tha= t > encoding. This framework also enables offload of other QUIC > functions to trusted intermediaries, given the explicit cooperatio= n > of the QUIC server. > =20 > =20 > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-quic-load-balancers/ > =20 > There are also htmlized versions available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-quic-load-balancers-00 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-quic-load-balancers-= 00 > =20 > =20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > =20 > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > =20 > =20 >=20 --=20 Cheers Magnus Westerlund=20 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Networks, Ericsson Research ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: ce603f4c-536f-4889-cb82-08d7a4c49663 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 29 Jan 2020 14:07:33.9032 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: w9AlM13Q0bHjxPhTyAIEEdBY+8ASN8VWzBoI7kbHHqQAbGVzD2qJ33YoR3Yzf22hFU+BIHGelfaZT2lJ8/ZPdMybFkj11Fp8who51hE2F2Q= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB7PR07MB5529 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 14:07:48 -0000 --=-rDwsC4p7RRPkmSZa1gt3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, 2020-01-27 at 16:28 -0800, Jana Iyengar wrote: > Looks fine.=20 >=20 > Since you've made broader changes, some nits on the rest of the text: >=20 > - "Upon completion of that mapping, additional protocols may be added by > updating this charter to include them, or working elsewhere." This > sentence does not make sense anymore. What is that "or working elsewhere" > supposed to be adding? Should this phrase be dropped? "working elsewhere" as in other WGs. I still think it is correct, but lets clarify that other WGs may work on such mappings. >=20 > - The fifth focus area should be described _after_ the paragraph starting= with > "Current network management practices", since that para is related to the > fourth focus area. It was Mark that drafted this change. But, I don't understand why that para= graph should have specific relationship with the 4th focus area of extensions or = even multipaht specifically. I see it as a general requirement for the protocol = to consider hwat is mentioned here. Thus, I think the move is a good oen.=20 > - In the fifth focus area, "the Working Group will delivery a mechanism t= o > assist load balancers in their handling of QUIC." > First, a nit: "delivery" --> "deliver". Will fix.=20 > Second, perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't remember that we agreed to deliv= er a > "mechanism" for this. A more inclusive phrasing here might be "will deliv= er > solutions for load balancers to handle QUIC traffic." I would appreciate more feedback on this. Yes, a solution may not require a mechanism. I guess you envision simply that some guidance on how a load bal= ancer can use what already exists rather than charter a requirement for something= that is a protocol change?=20 >=20 > - Final nit that has already been noted, "the QUIC mapping for HTTP/2". I= f we > are going to touch that text, let's change it to "the QUIC mapping for HT= TP". > I agree with Mike that we've used HTTP/2 as the effective API that we're > building to, but I think that purpose has been served. I don't we're in d= anger > of veering way off-course on the HTTP mapping from HTTP/2, if only for > pragmatic reasons. I am fine with just writing HTTP in first bullet and in that last paragraph= . However, I like to avoid having to rewrite the whole third focus area parag= raph. Cheers Magnus Westerlund=20 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Networks, Ericsson Research ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Torshamnsgatan 23 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --=-rDwsC4p7RRPkmSZa1gt3 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADCABgkqhkiG9w0BBwEAAKCCEtww ggYHMIID76ADAgECAhALRm3NcHtuMGWutmt5cXntMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBCwUAMEcxCzAJBgNVBAYT AlNFMREwDwYDVQQKDAhFcmljc3NvbjElMCMGA1UEAwwcRXJpY3Nzb24gTkwgSW5kaXZpZHVhbCBD QSB2MzAeFw0xNzEyMTUwNzIyMjNaFw0yMDEyMTUwNzIyMjJaMHAxETAPBgNVBAoMCEVyaWNzc29u MRowGAYDVQQDDBFNYWdudXMgV2VzdGVybHVuZDEtMCsGCSqGSIb3DQEJARYebWFnbnVzLndlc3Rl 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SMTP id b26mr6548243vso.27.1580309217493; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 06:46:57 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3d2e70c1f581579a97124c31b096f0bda8b053b5.camel@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <3d2e70c1f581579a97124c31b096f0bda8b053b5.camel@ericsson.com> From: Lucas Pardue Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 14:46:46 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Proposed Charter Text To: Magnus Westerlund Cc: "mbishop@evequefou.be" , "jri.ietf@gmail.com" , "ianswett@google.com" , "quic@ietf.org" , "fenix@fb.com" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008b45db059d4869dc" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 14:46:59 -0000 --0000000000008b45db059d4869dc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Since we have only one mapping, is it fine to talk more solidly about it in the third focus area? For example, the paragraph could be rewritten as such: The third focus area describes the mapping between the HTTP application protocol and the transport facilities of QUIC. This mapping will have performance characteristics comparable with HTTP/2, and provide extension mechanisms similar to HTTP/2. Upon completion of this mapping, work to define additional mappings may be included by updates to this charter, or may be worked on by other working groups. --0000000000008b45db059d4869dc Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Since we have only one mapping, is it fine to talk mo= re solidly about it in the third focus area? For example, the paragraph cou= ld be rewritten as such:

The third focus area desc= ribes the mapping between the HTTP application
protocol and the transport facilities of QUIC. This mapping will have
<= /div>
performance characteristics comparable with HTTP/2, and provide e= xtension
mechanisms similar to HTTP/2. Upon completion of this
mapping, work to define additional mappings may be included by updates to <= br>
this charter, or may be worked on by other working groups.
--0000000000008b45db059d4869dc-- From nobody Wed Jan 29 07:17:26 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6CC61200BA for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 07:17:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -17.5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-17.5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bSJBjMUOvJoQ for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 07:17:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm1-x32e.google.com (mail-wm1-x32e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 21F0212009C for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 07:17:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm1-x32e.google.com with SMTP id c84so135395wme.4 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 07:17:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=h62ColxdhHMM8nKDaZuIb0QLQWhfxKLtsp7Tk+O6Zr8=; b=F83fxCtsPOcEq9nB+TsLLBUV/Qgf/sjIUKhHQKDtci/GiHGvm6VfryiqZPct7+GCWJ pPi1r4x86jOSo3Y68w+OYa6tBK2JJ2bzrWwEnpRVlbiPl0VmK0UrEuZWlXUDxxQcQ1Au K6aL5ARVAlx5HiiB4VUDI3I0n8mjg4KXRghLVaP+ivjgAXCkcnmYzdyeizcQPIqqvRYy bd5PhlszWScnOYVXmEr++aI0sBfO5Zzot+Apxj7x3MEhkncbKDR9tu8xCSf3C563fe8u bh153Ei9iANqJgrX5kj5wcGOwGJE5LmHT4xXmCETnOjrnz3xX1bdPV1ncdhzshxGBxSD IdkA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=h62ColxdhHMM8nKDaZuIb0QLQWhfxKLtsp7Tk+O6Zr8=; b=jd89awB/J1CP7R2bzT8TH4L+D1tFzqb3zbPfFq0o/R0qJxCslwT/xFJ3pCxaWBIjvB zNoxyfT4tAqX7MRhVx8/T5dg4KLHFPO3RQNM+nPHjk6C7tj8xSafuORJhLv04VjuY0K5 bRR8SVtQtnGnxlCjOIOxK3+Pp2Z0iPZGwpE0sxYQADNe4q/BviqpWa+z9JN5ZpvZzLBx Ew/YQPxcO51T4JYjFb/RmvxY/Ck+GKcx4qjiWmh/9W0FbaDBDMTl3dijFSj4fBLOMoeq eLoGGa6kl5OZYrRRKq37f5a7AICQyMzePB1ODx92FdAe1t4fE+lc532rn/DuEqkOZaUJ 4Ifg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXGDifwOGHaShSA1QiBZJ5IsUMl+GIeFjhODWUCJ4ClQGfTX805 jdBMbU6704q5MRxVAxzPqqJotooCX0YEg4Zmjjq6cQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyMmcL+wXjZFCxfd2Eo+gVMcIqAlBMaHf0LDRJO7HhFkuR+xAM9og9xwlWX5uJLOnUcQ18TFJKtYSR1z0RtDD8= X-Received: by 2002:a7b:c392:: with SMTP id s18mr12030499wmj.169.1580311040329; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 07:17:20 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3d2e70c1f581579a97124c31b096f0bda8b053b5.camel@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: From: Ian Swett Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 10:17:08 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Proposed Charter Text To: Lucas Pardue Cc: Magnus Westerlund , "mbishop@evequefou.be" , "jri.ietf@gmail.com" , "quic@ietf.org" , "fenix@fb.com" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000320273059d48d6f7" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 15:17:25 -0000 --000000000000320273059d48d6f7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I like Lucas suggestion. On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 9:46 AM Lucas Pardue wrote: > Since we have only one mapping, is it fine to talk more solidly about it > in the third focus area? For example, the paragraph could be rewritten as > such: > > The third focus area describes the mapping between the HTTP application > protocol and the transport facilities of QUIC. This mapping will have > performance characteristics comparable with HTTP/2, and provide extension > mechanisms similar to HTTP/2. Upon completion of this > mapping, work to define additional mappings may be included by updates to > this charter, or may be worked on by other working groups. > --000000000000320273059d48d6f7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I like Lucas suggestion.

On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 9:46 AM Lu= cas Pardue <lucaspardue.24.7@gmail.com> wrote:
Since we have only one = mapping, is it fine to talk more solidly about it in the third focus area? = For example, the paragraph could be rewritten as such:

=
The third focus area describes the mapping between the HTTP applicatio= n
protocol and the transport facilities of QUIC. This mapping will have
<= /div>
performance characteristics comparable with HTTP/2, and provide e= xtension
mechanisms similar to HTTP/2. Upon completion of this
mapping, work to define additional mappings may be included by updates to <= br>
this charter, or may be worked on by other working groups.
--000000000000320273059d48d6f7-- From nobody Wed Jan 29 08:30:47 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietf.org Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6373812009C; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 08:30:45 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: quic@ietf.org Subject: I-D Action: draft-ietf-quic-load-balancers-01.txt X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.116.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: quic@ietf.org Message-ID: <158031544526.2815.8473292709070343668@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 08:30:45 -0800 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 16:30:46 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the QUIC WG of the IETF. Title : QUIC-LB: Generating Routable QUIC Connection IDs Authors : Martin Duke Nick Banks Filename : draft-ietf-quic-load-balancers-01.txt Pages : 24 Date : 2020-01-29 Abstract: QUIC connection IDs allow continuation of connections across address/ port 4-tuple changes, and can store routing information for stateless or low-state load balancers. They also can prevent linkability of connections across deliberate address migration through the use of protected communications between client and server. This creates issues for load-balancing intermediaries. This specification standardizes methods for encoding routing information given a small set of configuration parameters. This framework also enables offload of other QUIC functions to trusted intermediaries, given the explicit cooperation of the QUIC server. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-quic-load-balancers/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-quic-load-balancers-01 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-quic-load-balancers-01 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-quic-load-balancers-01 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Wed Jan 29 08:41:34 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CDA3120881 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 08:41:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SjysqyPMsjDg for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 08:41:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm1-x32a.google.com (mail-wm1-x32a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6724A120880 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 08:41:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm1-x32a.google.com with SMTP id a9so499601wmj.3 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 08:41:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=JKSonidIQaSD8pGk4PRiVK4l1t7RIkgYMTo3a8QA7tc=; b=esOJ440vMoQtXBwEEOCHBZYxmnuXs6n77v5l0xxpAzgRjHoZnEYoy+pvIZ/d761o5i w3NchXMKWYviGlppurop0gXbwnxAHZsfJR1dnKKdK+r40UTSsY5lgXkyRv/VObRXYTuv /vapk6VUkOtscl2Hl4CnrKdX8olGj8B2k2sEv9vNEj+KSNci0zrp2U8Vsq0FoQtESXNW FoxL6LkvJOIEu8rqF4KUNtl2hywECRvtgYvdwGvr6LbxrDczwjJrWSUMrbZ0mRHR8E+0 WAjBtUEE4PJT0zwE7D1SC4G6d0nTef1nRO2BNn4V6jeDcsawjISydgRCkrVYjdzTIgJ+ +f+Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=JKSonidIQaSD8pGk4PRiVK4l1t7RIkgYMTo3a8QA7tc=; b=TF0E1ekIaTth+opTAIntdHg9s2zfT8yb+ic99w4yg9DwcyU6MhjvJCZ3Y+mlKK40VJ Oaj5twfvULtelyOl41IkTxHbi0EDhz8lSvj4mOlhmkXw/fNbggR3Ysg4A8GaBtpM2oOn C6Xj4cobppiNNYB0KPhQmhy45H19XWHxt8tYOAVHZTBeHbXdb/Ab55ASEcQwUJntjH72 c4JnF4P6AYehwsMcf5fwyH3lBOsqoQyYhzK0lNkW3Mv30o0Jlqxd6OyHZypLvZrEIcbI xlC4rH41xHkKW0MlO5nck/iehvm8Sjnk7toeaUCpuTN1atLBtljGbYZ0iRDDBiEYlgKU zvIg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVnOzWs1fnfvuVjo5tXxoB07rAPJZvX5dDrwySZ1ZJfzys6aT/s bssbyYO6JurtZH3MSVmYPOFRn4AoNKJYU0SIljZj7XH9 X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzK2rec9A0mn65AX/2XIJp4KNbSC6ayrTOPaYK06Jz2FePviPfpQ0iSm45i8PhtaMdIR2MclD8sWFcFtmrKWy0= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:7215:: with SMTP id n21mr128104wmc.154.1580316087626; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 08:41:27 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <158031544568.2815.15754654508005430640.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <158031544568.2815.15754654508005430640.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Martin Duke Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 08:41:16 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-quic-load-balancers-01.txt To: IETF QUIC WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000931bb059d4a03ca" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 16:41:32 -0000 --0000000000000931bb059d4a03ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" At mnot's suggestion, I submitted draft-00 as an exact copy of the last individual draft. draft-01 (below) strips out the in-band protocol, by popular demand. To my knowledge the intended repo for the next wave of WG drafts is not yet operative. However, if you are fired up to file an issue or PR you can do so at my personal repo. I promise I won't lose it. https://github.com/martinduke/draft-duke-quic-load-balancers I'll be in Zurich if you would like to discuss. I would like to get an interop/hackathon effort going in Vancouver, but would very much like someone to take the lead on it. ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Date: Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 8:30 AM Subject: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-quic-load-balancers-01.txt To: Nick Banks , Martin Duke A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-quic-load-balancers-01.txt has been successfully submitted by Martin Duke and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-ietf-quic-load-balancers Revision: 01 Title: QUIC-LB: Generating Routable QUIC Connection IDs Document date: 2020-01-29 Group: quic Pages: 24 URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-quic-load-balancers-01.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-quic-load-balancers/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-quic-load-balancers-01 Htmlized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-quic-load-balancers Diff: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-quic-load-balancers-01 Abstract: QUIC connection IDs allow continuation of connections across address/ port 4-tuple changes, and can store routing information for stateless or low-state load balancers. They also can prevent linkability of connections across deliberate address migration through the use of protected communications between client and server. This creates issues for load-balancing intermediaries. This specification standardizes methods for encoding routing information given a small set of configuration parameters. This framework also enables offload of other QUIC functions to trusted intermediaries, given the explicit cooperation of the QUIC server. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat --0000000000000931bb059d4a03ca Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
At mnot's suggestion, I submitted draft-00 as an exact= copy of the last individual draft. draft-01 (below) strips out the in-band= protocol, by popular demand.

To my knowle= dge the intended repo for the next wave of WG drafts is not yet operative. = However, if you are fired up to file an issue or PR you can do so at my per= sonal repo. I promise I won't lose it.

I'll be in Zurich if you would like to discuss. I would li= ke to get an interop/hackathon effort going in Vancouver, but would very mu= ch like someone to take the lead on it.

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: <= ;internet-drafts@ietf.org&g= t;
Date: Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 8:30 AM
Subject: New Version Not= ification for draft-ietf-quic-load-balancers-01.txt
To: Nick Banks <<= a href=3D"mailto:nibanks@microsoft.com">nibanks@microsoft.com>, Mart= in Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.= com>



A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-quic-load-balancers-01.txt
has been successfully submitted by Martin Duke and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-ietf-quic-load-balancer= s
Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A001
Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 QUIC-LB: Generating Routable QUIC = Connection IDs
Document date:=C2=A0 2020-01-29
Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 quic
Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 24
URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-quic-lo= ad-balancers-01.txt
Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-quic-load-balancers/ Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0htt= ps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-quic-load-balancers-01
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-quic-load-balancers
Diff:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-quic-load-bal= ancers-01

Abstract:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0QUIC connection IDs allow continuation of connections across a= ddress/
=C2=A0 =C2=A0port 4-tuple changes, and can store routing information for st= ateless
=C2=A0 =C2=A0or low-state load balancers.=C2=A0 They also can prevent linka= bility of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0connections across deliberate address migration through the us= e of
=C2=A0 =C2=A0protected communications between client and server.=C2=A0 This= creates
=C2=A0 =C2=A0issues for load-balancing intermediaries.=C2=A0 This specifica= tion
=C2=A0 =C2=A0standardizes methods for encoding routing information given a = small
=C2=A0 =C2=A0set of configuration parameters.=C2=A0 This framework also ena= bles offload
=C2=A0 =C2=A0of other QUIC functions to trusted intermediaries, given the e= xplicit
=C2=A0 =C2=A0cooperation of the QUIC server.




Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat

--0000000000000931bb059d4a03ca-- From nobody Wed Jan 29 08:44:10 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC8AC12029C for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 08:44:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=litespeedtech-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Bzchhu14kL48 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 08:44:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk1-x72c.google.com (mail-qk1-x72c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3970012081D for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 08:44:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk1-x72c.google.com with SMTP id j20so17637454qka.10 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 08:44:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=litespeedtech-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id:mail-followup-to:references :mime-version:content-disposition:in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=Q4s9EulF+RJpFCbXzzb159kgy1jme7o9BV6MWiWG/F8=; b=LYawQ6ck3iUFcHZD0inq1RyMFDC9f7vtD+kq7fztyXg+FHjoTPq93tF/AvYA/pDUVQ IsvoISzjPfo9uspqDz3MyyHh70kLisJ8ImMd7n5ar7B9wXNK+PudJL8YaKt+x3M03gYk WLBgBIb1l+QiPDEluhk5wz/dwuh5Q0ECrj9Vqrjs8BukrcsTRAQHCXgQ8v9ewL65m1zp 7fORTSotrCtOBYwaptDi/YnpUc9vji5oG1FJxI2IWRCAjObh+7yYDeSPirR3YSFZUoFG Zp9fUuXytjc5Hk1fY6NwetloXroNyTorsAn+EfSEFDouPGC5TrFSmW5hWmUrFV6mrWEe ZVkg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id :mail-followup-to:references:mime-version:content-disposition :in-reply-to:user-agent; bh=Q4s9EulF+RJpFCbXzzb159kgy1jme7o9BV6MWiWG/F8=; b=T7BMxq0ejZdi/jgTLR09k+ST+ioRh0rG5MdNHCBWVZB1aQg82EQ2zMCIjJnYeuc6dE eBw/3mR+T1Zyx+RWTdYSVZ4TnE0YHnKPnGqoCzGQFw0HaIA1Z7dv0n92kYX+ax3tuCIW V2NGlSW4lgqA8ee8xnKLgxLF6Uq8YytbeqreYvhuMkc0c9yR1nL1WpgQmbHKUYof3vED QRBMJ9bAflpuvVy23mcDcnBeO7jYL9kWGVcS0YoEXh4ZjbMXXglnZpUrqGg0rNz9o5Rn QSQaz2rmOQ+mcMscqy1TyjGN2Xu7vFVIdyXlL41KApi6X/WJAhrY1UjM+hjvuyYoAzYx GW6Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVaksg7XlHz6om9SXhxRvPpNJPptjyrqYKC/xf6RzBS/zhUpK1l tFp1pNhscA92Fx2sJ78ogKraGLMQ/4E= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxNUBMf+cg5Se04hLAgZBApPBhg029gqo85P2X392snGWrHh6WDpQYRhAcYewnHSfpDEugKBg== X-Received: by 2002:ae9:e007:: with SMTP id m7mr544578qkk.215.1580316244390; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 08:44:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from ubuntu-dmitri (ool-2f1636b6.static.optonline.net. [47.22.54.182]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a24sm1202284qkl.82.2020.01.29.08.44.03 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 29 Jan 2020 08:44:03 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 11:43:59 -0500 From: Dmitri Tikhonov To: Martin Duke Cc: IETF QUIC WG Subject: Re: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-quic-load-balancers-01.txt Message-ID: <20200129164358.GA18661@ubuntu-dmitri> Mail-Followup-To: Martin Duke , IETF QUIC WG References: <158031544568.2815.15754654508005430640.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 16:44:09 -0000 On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 08:41:16AM -0800, Martin Duke wrote: > https://github.com/martinduke/draft-duke-quic-load-balancers > > I'll be in Zurich if you would like to discuss. I would like to get an > interop/hackathon effort going in Vancouver, but would very much like > someone to take the lead on it. What do you think an LB interop/hackathon would look like? - Dmitri. 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I may have misinterpreted it. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I am happy to proceed however you see fit. Martin On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 5:17 AM Magnus Westerlund < magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com> wrote: > Hi, > (as AD) > > This document should not have been posted as a WG document yet. The > intention > was to complete the re-chartering and then adopt documents in a controlle= d > fashion. It was submitted but not approved to be posted by any of the > chairs. We > think it got posted due to the datatracker server outage recovery work. > > Cheers > > Magnus > > > > On Wed, 2020-01-29 at 08:56 +0000, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote: > > Hi all, hi Martin, > > > > This is now a working group document. I thought the plan was to move th= e > > protocol part of this proposal to a separate draft. Is that still the > plan? > > > > Mirja > > > > > > > > =EF=BB=BFOn 28.01.20, 20:59, "QUIC on behalf of internet-drafts@ietf.or= g" < > > quic-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of internet-drafts@ietf.org> wrote: > > > > > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > > directories. > > This draft is a work item of the QUIC WG of the IETF. > > > > Title : QUIC-LB: Generating Routable QUIC > Connection IDs > > Authors : Martin Duke > > Nick Banks > > Filename : draft-ietf-quic-load-balancers-00.txt > > Pages : 31 > > Date : 2020-01-28 > > > > Abstract: > > QUIC connection IDs allow continuation of connections across > address/ > > port 4-tuple changes, and can store routing information for > stateless > > or low-state load balancers. They also can prevent linkability = of > > connections across deliberate address migration through the use = of > > protected communications between client and server. This create= s > > issues for load-balancing intermediaries. This specification > > standardizes methods for encoding routing information and > proposes an > > optional protocol called QUIC-LB to exchange the parameters of > that > > encoding. This framework also enables offload of other QUIC > > functions to trusted intermediaries, given the explicit > cooperation > > of the QUIC server. > > > > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-quic-load-balancers/ > > > > There are also htmlized versions available at: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-quic-load-balancers-00 > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-quic-load-balancers-00 > > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > > submission > > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org= . > > > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > > > > > > -- > Cheers > > Magnus Westerlund > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Networks, Ericsson Research > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 > Torshamnsgatan 23 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 > SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > --000000000000c67fde059d4a12a8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Magnus,

An email from the= chairs made me believe the adoption process was already complete. I may ha= ve misinterpreted it.

Sorry for the misunderstandi= ng. I am happy to proceed however you see fit.

Mar= tin

On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 5:17 AM Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com> wrote:
Hi= ,
(as AD)

This document should not have been posted as a WG document yet. The intenti= on
was to complete the re-chartering and then adopt documents in a controlled<= br> fashion. It was submitted but not approved to be posted by any of the chair= s. We
think it got posted due to the datatracker server outage recovery work.
Cheers

Magnus



On Wed, 2020-01-29 at 08:56 +0000, Mirja Kuehlewind wrote:
> Hi all, hi Martin,
>
> This is now a working group document. I thought the plan was to move t= he
> protocol part of this proposal to a separate draft. Is that still the = plan?
>
> Mirja
>
>
>
> =EF=BB=BFOn 28.01.20, 20:59, "QUIC on behalf of internet-drafts@ietf.org&q= uot; <
> quic-bounce= s@ietf.org on behalf of internet-drafts@ietf.org> wrote:
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line = Internet-Drafts
> directories.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This draft is a work item of the QUIC WG of the IET= F.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: QUIC-LB: Generating Routable QUIC Connection IDs<= br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Authors=C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: Martin Duke
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Nick Banks
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Filename=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : draft-= ietf-quic-load-balancers-00.txt
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Pages=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0: 31
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 : 2020-01-28
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Abstract:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 QUIC connection IDs allow continuation of c= onnections across address/
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 port 4-tuple changes, and can store routing= information for stateless
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 or low-state load balancers.=C2=A0 They als= o can prevent linkability of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 connections across deliberate address migra= tion through the use of
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 protected communications between client and= server.=C2=A0 This creates
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 issues for load-balancing intermediaries.= =C2=A0 This specification
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 standardizes methods for encoding routing i= nformation and proposes an
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 optional protocol called QUIC-LB to exchang= e the parameters of that
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 encoding.=C2=A0 This framework also enables= offload of other QUIC
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 functions to trusted intermediaries, given = the explicit cooperation
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 of the QUIC server.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://data= tracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-quic-load-balancers/
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0There are also htmlized versions available at:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://tools.i= etf.org/html/draft-ietf-quic-load-balancers-00
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https= ://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-quic-load-balancers-00
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Please note that it may take a couple of minutes fr= om the time of
> submission
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0until the htmlized version and diff are available a= t to= ols.ietf.org.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP= at:
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0
>
--
Cheers

Magnus Westerlund


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Networks, Ericsson Research
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| = Phone=C2=A0 +46 10 7148287
Torshamnsgatan 23=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Mobile +46 73 0= 949079
SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------


--000000000000c67fde059d4a12a8-- From nobody Wed Jan 29 08:50:13 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C30701201B7 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 08:50:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1HVLwBEhqseb for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 08:50:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm1-x32f.google.com (mail-wm1-x32f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 867EF12009C for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 08:50:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm1-x32f.google.com with SMTP id b17so558010wmb.0 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 08:50:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=RHK60id4DeRt1z77zSJ+cbBoGcm6tVioEs+XZx/qQIo=; b=aZ6d2hrOuKKZNfmyWUCgxkO5lGdngDkQApjKtOT/YhgYCBLXiLPaHg2Z/KiXRwyN4w DR5/vcvQVUP9JJaafhQNaNdGsaHOMsuRKl/CY0PGFMEM7XwWuQecxqDjcoRirEKzORUe bKUxAPg07AUqUIHSoInM4k0kmUiFmcBd2pxaJ1OLJPWkk5+4q+V3owVxIkgeGegCrWE/ tuj9p2Q8tWwVPvAaZktkHLCp7jxvnLhAU72h5RgSJfNaYw3aoy7s6D3YNFQvvQu4vUGf ixxsGLreO7ccko7Qr0Zv/jnYdbGxLGC98viCqyhXDvG5PwBkRUsAfVbrsswCASB8dRbw FgfA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=RHK60id4DeRt1z77zSJ+cbBoGcm6tVioEs+XZx/qQIo=; b=XwwKzHfzbkIF2GO2npbXbqVzDCTjSs79KYKrjY//oL/MMDrZqJRU8++7yuA1XSKpJH /y2oo2M6ofT8G1Qm509LRHk0YCM2njrZxoRudQaKsBxoxHBUxrZvEfGU0GkA6j5LYJRE 6zC/ndmGA/pg9BcWZIJJkkDfyUR4949bW7JIbWbWug4p8klfc3WdSUWJel1n/0WTnGBa IkHofMtd+7ZtlxoVDGycMZ4qHyGZvpnlixwUScVFvj1bThTi+t4XkaBZMIHgu/XlXL5h wkyf4/NYgrU39ZxNJGAVTejYnl6GOOkfAAgwlZVKP/0p7HFVBD5K1VO0PnQ+TXX1Cd5L 7PnA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUEiEY60qKK5Y7SmRsbK7umm798xu27Ag9G3g2az7/u9PoupTp9 QQ+Nkai6Zi5qRgQSyIsA9RyL6t26qVUafmHGs4Q= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwiLP3VOxxhAUAaS7wfER37BQaeKa3Q6NeAnrms0/zqUWVNATTnVxWPly6I///etV5NgX+/4DTV5nTCIG4D4ps= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:7215:: with SMTP id n21mr162757wmc.154.1580316606041; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 08:50:06 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <158031544568.2815.15754654508005430640.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <20200129164358.GA18661@ubuntu-dmitri> In-Reply-To: <20200129164358.GA18661@ubuntu-dmitri> From: Martin Duke Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 08:49:54 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-quic-load-balancers-01.txt To: Martin Duke , IETF QUIC WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ef92ca059d4a212f" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 16:50:12 -0000 --000000000000ef92ca059d4a212f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" What I have in mind is something like QPACK interop - given a set of parameters, implementers generate a series of CIDs and other teams try to successfully extract the server id. But I'm certainly open to other ideas. On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 8:44 AM Dmitri Tikhonov wrote: > On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 08:41:16AM -0800, Martin Duke wrote: > > https://github.com/martinduke/draft-duke-quic-load-balancers > > > > I'll be in Zurich if you would like to discuss. I would like to get an > > interop/hackathon effort going in Vancouver, but would very much like > > someone to take the lead on it. > > What do you think an LB interop/hackathon would look like? > > - Dmitri. > --000000000000ef92ca059d4a212f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
What I have in mind is something like QPACK interop - give= n a set of parameters, implementers generate a series of CIDs and other tea= ms try to successfully extract the server id. But I'm certainly open to= other ideas.

On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 8:44 AM Dmitri Tikhonov <dtikhonov@litespeedtech.com>= ; wrote:
On Wed,= Jan 29, 2020 at 08:41:16AM -0800, Martin Duke wrote:
> https://github.com/martinduke/draft= -duke-quic-load-balancers
>
> I'll be in Zurich if you would like to discuss. I would like to ge= t an
> interop/hackathon effort going in Vancouver, but would very much like<= br> > someone to take the lead on it.

What do you think an LB interop/hackathon would look like?

=C2=A0 - Dmitri.
--000000000000ef92ca059d4a212f-- From nobody Wed Jan 29 09:09:57 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11DF9120884 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 09:09:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Nz5QmmJG-ODv for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 09:09:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr1-x42a.google.com (mail-wr1-x42a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 94C0F120130 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 09:09:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr1-x42a.google.com with SMTP id y17so228738wrh.5 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 09:09:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ziPIr12KpD6h7bt6KXCIbpr1IEpl8vmuKjMCPedwZvk=; b=Vbr04UY2p2+H6sIh1A2wrYnNXdVdjTEql0uDNc2bXJzsaGLFM2olu93xFYO3aBurRR e/kVqcpxd3E0pnXDGevI0276Q3xxM6cP1gGJ3H1rGhNlPtsRd08OkMfP0gq2AZ0dIzGi 3UletMlJV8uFo/SCT7jdzLBBEU7/yKMqXDMsKojT86EGzSQNhWInrb65+neIryHNJKuH J5FfnIgTYeQhh8yBkm+KFCdZhYMvDgjDjdxGsuXsFa5YGtcmiiu5n7BbPrO90KD2NuCH iVXVlYg7Pz3NoWtysvxyOj0aU4eAJ0W/Dd2iOJKwfA/0q91l7zdRHW/TjPIsvkO/28HY /A6w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ziPIr12KpD6h7bt6KXCIbpr1IEpl8vmuKjMCPedwZvk=; b=O8dBtNC+oBhzqnsZAJzBeeseeNZYswZV9T0xVTRKU8QOqeBhMnsAyE+IG7HQULe4xQ LpGiYqoaPOPgXhqu7sOCLjl0KtNlwJG8tXhHFVKRd/XJa+lBEt4+tbDWnY96sX3QOx51 ganBSTOjHLF4LMwfguq3ktEQAdMKNIheYnrIIeXWlVdsrvRb6Jn4ecH586e2htHqfZud zUG7JgUT4KuGsFqShXz02WuQZF8fv4g78lNtAEXLCeeEjIdM0jZC8pNVr7KJTdxM7yYd bR6zo/Df6rJMlY3EAkza9/hJpJ70ieZgvCdSaeFhig6Ovc/Qvz8wXZnOSHV9syaJ7GwN IzIg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVtjEZNhreot/BL4f5IrlHfSFPImYepcFmChwFt9Vj3N2OO1LCm tXapK+evJxufFuHVQxBISqKn6dpiF/i/ktopjdU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzgO2+ef04Wt1NIqYXy3gg5ukO19e/1CJcCOElRHqFPunbsmxRFaroOJ812sC34rmsX1RikSMfPICB0Rii2b04= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:6151:: with SMTP id y17mr35874068wrt.110.1580317791022; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 09:09:51 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <157470946896.14159.17248985824634821547.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: From: Martin Duke Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 09:09:39 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-duke-quic-natsupp-00.txt To: Mirja Kuehlewind Cc: IETF QUIC WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000090f17f059d4a68db" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 17:09:55 -0000 --00000000000090f17f059d4a68db Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Mirja, For Section 4.1, here is the scenario I have in mind: - the NAT is out of public addresses and ports and uses CIDs to multiplex clients over one port (which the draft is arguing it should not do) - NAT routes packets coming in from the internet with address/port A:B and CID C to client #1 - NAT routes packets coming in from the internet with address/port A:B and CID D to client #2 - Client #1 provides a new CID E to the server - The NAT receives a packet for address/port A:B and CID E, and cannot disambiguate the two clients. Section 4.2. - Server deployment has 4-tuple routing and it is expensive to change - IT installs a NAT at the front of the infrastructure that stores a mapping of CIDs to inbound source address and port. - If a packet arrives with a known CID but a different source address/port, the NAT will rewrite the source/address port to the old value, and thus the packet will route to the correct back-end server. Thus the infrastructure is robust to NAT rebinding, if not intentional migration with a new CID. - While this "works", it has security implications as discussed. If we decide this is worth writing up at all, I'll try to make it clearer. Or have I made a mistake somewhere? Thanks for the comments. Let's discuss next week if this worth living as a separate document. Martin On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 1:28 AM Mirja Kuehlewind < mirja.kuehlewind@ericsson.com> wrote: > Hi Martin, > > > > thanks for writing this up. I have two questions and a comment. > > > > This part in section 4.1: > > =E2=80=9CTherefore, leveraging Connection IDs will cause sudden connec= tion > > breakage when an incoming packet uses CIDs with no clear mapping.=E2= =80=9D > > Not sure I understand this correctly but would a NAT simply assign a new > port/address when a new CID shows up..? Why would that break connectivity= ? > Or what do you mean with that? > > > > Regarding section 4.2: > > You basically say that changing the port/address might break 4-tuple > routing on the other end. But wouldn=E2=80=99t mean that any NAT rebindin= g would > break connectivity and that=E2=80=99s a problem by the other end that sho= uld be > solved there? > > > > I think the most important part of the document is the last paragraph in > section 4.2. I=E2=80=99d recommend to put that in an own section. However= , I=E2=80=99m > actually not convinced about the other two points (above). If that is the > only point we would need to make, maybe that=E2=80=99s also something to = put in the > manageability document. > > > > Mirja > > > > > > *From: *QUIC on behalf of Martin Duke < > martin.h.duke@gmail.com> > *Date: *Tuesday, 28. January 2020 at 19:29 > *To: *IETF QUIC WG > *Subject: *Fwd: New Version Notification for > draft-duke-quic-natsupp-00.txt > > > > At Gorry's suggestion, I took the NAT recommendations and put them in a > short draft that NAT guys are more likely to read. If this seems > extraneous, I'm happy to get that feedback. > > > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > From: > Date: Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 11:17 AM > Subject: New Version Notification for draft-duke-quic-natsupp-00.txt > To: Martin Duke > > > > > A new version of I-D, draft-duke-quic-natsupp-00.txt > has been successfully submitted by Martin Duke and posted to the > IETF repository. > > Name: draft-duke-quic-natsupp > Revision: 00 > Title: Network Address Translation Support for QUIC > Document date: 2019-11-25 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 5 > URL: > https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-duke-quic-natsupp-00.txt > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-duke-quic-natsupp/ > Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-duke-quic-natsupp-00 > Htmlized: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-duke-quic-natsupp > > > Abstract: > Network Address Translators (NATs) are widely deployed to share > scarce public IPv4 addresses among mutiple end hosts. They overwrite > IP addresses and ports in IP packets to do so. QUIC is a protocol on > top of UDP that provides transport-like services. QUIC is better- > behaved in the presence of NATs than older protocols, and existing > UDP NATs should operate without incident if unmodified. QUIC offers > additional features that may tempt NAT implementers as potential > optimizations. However, in practice, leveraging these features will > lead to new connection failure modes and security vulnerabilities. > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > The IETF Secretariat > --00000000000090f17f059d4a68db Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Mirja,

For Section 4.1, h= ere is the scenario I have in mind:
- the NAT is out of public ad= dresses and ports and uses CIDs to multiplex clients over one port (which t= he draft is arguing it should not do)
-=C2=A0 NAT routes pack= ets coming in from the internet with address/port A:B and CID C to client #= 1
- NAT routes packets coming in from the internet with address/p= ort A:B and CID D to client #2
- Client #1 provides a new CID E t= o the server
- The NAT receives a packet for address/port A:B and= CID E, and cannot disambiguate the two clients.

S= ection 4.2.
- Server deployment has 4-tuple routing and it is exp= ensive to change
- IT installs a NAT at the front of the infrastr= ucture that stores a mapping of CIDs to inbound source address and port.
- If a packet arrives with a known CID but a different source a= ddress/port, the NAT will rewrite the source/address port to the old value,= and thus the packet will route to the correct back-end server. Thus the in= frastructure is robust to NAT rebinding, if not intentional migration with = a new CID.
- While this "works", it has security implic= ations as discussed.

If we decide this is wort= h writing up at all, I'll try to make it clearer. Or have I made a mist= ake somewhere?

Thanks for the comments. Let= 9;s discuss next week if this worth living as a separate document.

Martin

<= div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 1:28 AM Mirja = Kuehlewind <mirja.kuehl= ewind@ericsson.com> wrote:

Hi Martin,

=C2=A0

thanks for writing this up. I h= ave two questions and a comment.

=C2=A0

This part in section 4.1:

=C2=A0=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CTherefore= , leveraging Connection IDs will cause sudden connection

=C2=A0=C2=A0 breakage when an i= ncoming packet uses CIDs with no clear mapping.=E2=80=9D

Not sure I understand this corr= ectly but would a NAT simply assign a new port/address when a new CID shows= up..? Why would that break connectivity? Or what do you mean with that?=

=C2=A0

Regarding section 4.2:

You basically say that changing= the port/address might break 4-tuple routing on the other end. But wouldn= =E2=80=99t mean that any NAT rebinding would break connectivity and that=E2= =80=99s a problem by the other end that should be solved there?

=C2=A0

I think the most important part= of the document is the last paragraph in section 4.2. I=E2=80=99d recommen= d to put that in an own section. However, I=E2=80=99m actually not convince= d about the other two points (above). If that is the only point we would need to make, maybe= that=E2=80=99s also something to put in the manageability document.=

=C2=A0

Mirja

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

From: QUIC <quic-bounces@ietf.org>= ; on behalf of Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>
Date: Tuesday, 28. January 2020 at 19:29
To: IETF QUIC WG <quic@ietf.org>
Subject: Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-duke-quic-natsupp-0= 0.txt

=C2=A0

At Gorry's suggestion= , I took the NAT recommendations and put them in a short draft that NAT guy= s are more likely to read. If this seems extraneous, I'm happy to get t= hat feedback.

=C2=A0

---------- Forwarded mess= age ---------
From: <int= ernet-drafts@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, Nov 25, 2019 at 11:17 AM
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-duke-quic-natsupp-00.txt
To: Martin Duke <martin.h.duke@gmail.com>




A new version of I-D, draft-duke-quic-natsupp-00.txt
has been successfully submitted by Martin Duke and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0draft-duke-quic-natsupp
Revision:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A000
Title:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Network Address Translation Suppor= t for QUIC
Document date:=C2=A0 2019-11-25
Group:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Individual Submission
Pages:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 5
URL:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-duke-quic-natsupp-00.txt
Status:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker.i= etf.org/doc/draft-duke-quic-natsupp/
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/html/d= raft-duke-quic-natsupp-00
Htmlized:=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0https://datatracker.ie= tf.org/doc/html/draft-duke-quic-natsupp


Abstract:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Network Address Translators (NATs) are widely deployed to shar= e
=C2=A0 =C2=A0scarce public IPv4 addresses among mutiple end hosts.=C2=A0 Th= ey overwrite
=C2=A0 =C2=A0IP addresses and ports in IP packets to do so.=C2=A0 QUIC is a= protocol on
=C2=A0 =C2=A0top of UDP that provides transport-like services.=C2=A0 QUIC i= s better-
=C2=A0 =C2=A0behaved in the presence of NATs than older protocols, and exis= ting
=C2=A0 =C2=A0UDP NATs should operate without incident if unmodified.=C2=A0 = QUIC offers
=C2=A0 =C2=A0additional features that may tempt NAT implementers as potenti= al
=C2=A0 =C2=A0optimizations.=C2=A0 However, in practice, leveraging these fe= atures will
=C2=A0 =C2=A0lead to new connection failure modes and security vulnerabilit= ies.




Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat

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[47.22.54.182]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h7sm1600598qke.30.2020.01.29.12.46.44 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 29 Jan 2020 12:46:45 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 15:46:43 -0500 From: Dmitri Tikhonov To: Jana Iyengar Cc: Mike Bishop , Ian Swett , QUIC WG , Matt Joras , Lucas Pardue Subject: Re: Proposed extension for delayed acknowledgments Message-ID: <20200129204642.GB18661@ubuntu-dmitri> Mail-Followup-To: Jana Iyengar , Mike Bishop , Ian Swett , QUIC WG , Matt Joras , Lucas Pardue References: <20200127135053.GB19655@ubuntu-dmitri> <20200127184007.GC19655@ubuntu-dmitri> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 20:46:51 -0000 On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 03:46:16PM -0800, Jana Iyengar wrote: > Thanks for proposing the TP: I'll update the draft to use it, knowing that > we're squatting on it. And 0xAF (obvious reasons) for the ACK-FREQUENCY frame? - Dmitri. From nobody Wed Jan 29 13:34:49 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54B80120059 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 13:34:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -17.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-17.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LTO0u6-e_jHc for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 13:34:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr1-x42b.google.com (mail-wr1-x42b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::42b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DE4D7120045 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 13:34:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr1-x42b.google.com with SMTP id y11so1295611wrt.6 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 13:34:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=dbR39lGpxAzCBE143dMEH0Soys8M8SDyH8nhTYHPcpo=; b=sj/DevTLtz7gN5ARfg6govAisRBeiM2GcEXhlPLUjBRjPx22+hH+HmYShJqBtlGk0/ Nvy+rxRHpLAzXCYtPyQ15HVpjzojKFX94c+ojwTKUIHM+U1YtUgca7CTosbCJ6Xg2LZx 6qyCNBp1oSGoEpwIZPzhtLfQjVtAkxbfXXwQvGST6AyWPzSbEulvfK4Pk3tIZp1sXXPo 71fpA+JvCdxs0adgorc2plEyeAljpS2UfmNwEX8qKuSSMiWfmKFXNAruL5l5/pL/3ZWs uh7YxE3V7n8P+uiLuvADK1CyBk65EAasgQjEZ7i4U5ueaUgHsF/XLWhIu7HPyYwSd8ut M37Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=dbR39lGpxAzCBE143dMEH0Soys8M8SDyH8nhTYHPcpo=; b=HUnTE7N5OQUQ+TFrHGuZv+tIvJAYlJfqREMt4wC4F41QhYEkFt9VwgvzKLqtbnZZ+N 8W9wDQ6EXdOx3zjqnD8PQbHeOgReLjedonYBzAfC3sQ4b6ljaZ2rvg6Y//bYAK9A9qbc wxklTiiQJLKq94MS4ge71lKmXPH1Zq0yQyql7v6/Qm1tDN24QlYehxe6rKgP4qVYUznv kVNZzbqdGgBNWBxYxWHChIxnvshsonc4slkmFN5ZMwI6hGuAbRniBstmikHS5qF0oX82 UL2g3c/Ta8nPbT2JYsFYhUn9DtouLqMEqitFjSSIj7oxovpArAEjpYJ/48PltBA3mFUU 5Hlw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAV+pfG/u7NPNNzb3jmUFdtg416ey69ZG6KrNm9LxQeiAFff6IRI uncJS8fMX2xcoI2DlwVbGe5xJkhwd1cpK6WyvCKBQg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyPhFVPKhtuotAA9YINT1VtSLHxbZFwTGhd6C5j+PJ8Rpq88MieC28tmvc/AAY1iisKrAlkF6WeioPRSjhoZ5k= X-Received: by 2002:adf:e984:: with SMTP id h4mr897997wrm.275.1580333683867; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 13:34:43 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200127135053.GB19655@ubuntu-dmitri> <20200127184007.GC19655@ubuntu-dmitri> <20200129204642.GB18661@ubuntu-dmitri> In-Reply-To: <20200129204642.GB18661@ubuntu-dmitri> From: Ian Swett Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 16:34:28 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Proposed extension for delayed acknowledgments To: Jana Iyengar , Mike Bishop , Ian Swett , QUIC WG , Matt Joras , Lucas Pardue Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000dace0d059d4e1b7f" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 21:34:48 -0000 --000000000000dace0d059d4e1b7f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Good point Dmitri, PR(https://github.com/janaiyengar/ack-frequency/pull/21) created. I didn't define a codepoint for the reordering field, because I believe it needs more discussion and isn't critical for initial interop. On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 3:46 PM Dmitri Tikhonov wrote: > On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 03:46:16PM -0800, Jana Iyengar wrote: > > Thanks for proposing the TP: I'll update the draft to use it, knowing > that > > we're squatting on it. > > And 0xAF (obvious reasons) for the ACK-FREQUENCY frame? > > - Dmitri. > --000000000000dace0d059d4e1b7f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Good point Dmitri, PR(https://github.com/janaiyengar/ack-frequency/p= ull/21) created.

I didn't define a codepoint for= the reordering field, because I believe it needs more discussion and isn&#= 39;t critical for initial interop.

On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 3:46 PM Dmi= tri Tikhonov <dtikhonov@l= itespeedtech.com> wrote:
On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 03:46:16PM -0800, Jana Iyengar wrot= e:
> Thanks for proposing the TP: I'll update the draft to use it, know= ing that
> we're squatting on it.

And 0xAF (obvious reasons) for the ACK-FREQUENCY frame?

=C2=A0 - Dmitri.
--000000000000dace0d059d4e1b7f-- From nobody Wed Jan 29 14:41:57 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF0C012001B; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 14:41:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=mnot.net header.b=o8VdU91D; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=messagingengine.com header.b=VSEKq2Kq Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eZm5kJXp5IW8; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 14:41:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com (out2-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1C79412004C; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 14:41:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from compute3.internal (compute3.nyi.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1F5B21B1B; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 17:41:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute3.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 29 Jan 2020 17:41:49 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mnot.net; h=from :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:reply-to:mime-version :subject:message-id:date:to; s=fm1; bh=Q3z700OD/S18QIepm+eFoHIuZ snEY2xqGgbeSlp8eiE=; b=o8VdU91DDd8GwTCNFE9S0qSn3kXQJkrsyPfEOhOE0 ++xRqTYl8Cad0JGux9r7Mjk0ub20j9fxMLwWCMYJ7sH3AHB0YBoWlnhj4nOChNMg 9V/zZdfVONF+SOOjHiw9DUNMeEAkIW+si41UCIfLq2MdxRUE35QDVwbOu+mOyQuT zMwzh3/b8yx5uy08CJoJnNzbvPkVZJAMx2maadcrhGrQzEdBrF3j6c4AznWUebRP 7zFEHrs74FK6SFWP4YRl2xdfbJLO8gPgmNe87IpnU/9WjaEA/ytjQOdplZkXArGD JqJ2nHAKQYDdihccjSMHS2RkNGdIi22oN75OmfrUtAz2A== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-transfer-encoding:content-type :date:from:message-id:mime-version:reply-to:subject:to :x-me-proxy:x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s= fm1; bh=Q3z700OD/S18QIepm+eFoHIuZsnEY2xqGgbeSlp8eiE=; b=VSEKq2Kq kMp4yOoOD+nH4zk9y9QQ+rsEuw5IMpZY9GPrOCBINjOhu6wvjIfXMyqf9E4wEOl3 ZMp8i/b80KpAtiEhkHbgxi7JS2E7BNLEXNyvRbkIKTnVpDd82zA8jgv8Mjez/8O/ bUR/1mRmTVOK2fya2LNfh5WYQtUoiCGsej0EnsMS36WZX2QMfGSZ9ji2+Xl2v8NU Gxm8FKrmQJbDcGU44/8d+nOULmzrNrfWb7OM1whBRT1DWmGW3xQ4Mm2AFx8CHsl7 5G7Y9X9D/2XgvEgWSAy85vs7HmxNbktspOA4yp2fxxjsLktv9nKQ25v3hzPwCJFC pnqX+nwZWmwoHA== X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedugedrfeeigdduieduucetufdoteggodetrfdotf fvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdfqfgfvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgen uceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmne cujfgurhephfgtgfhrggfukfffvffosehtqhhmtdhhtddvnecuhfhrohhmpeforghrkhcu pfhothhtihhnghhhrghmuceomhhnohhtsehmnhhothdrnhgvtheqnecuffhomhgrihhnpe hgihhthhhusgdrtghomhdprhhftgdqvgguihhtohhrrdhorhhgnecukfhppeduudelrddu jedrudehkedrvdehudenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedtnecurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrih hlfhhrohhmpehmnhhothesmhhnohhtrdhnvght X-ME-Proxy: Received: from macbook-pro.mnot.net (unknown [119.17.158.251]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id B7C493280059; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 17:41:47 -0500 (EST) From: Mark Nottingham Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Reply-To: IETF QUIC WG Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.0 \(3608.40.2.2.4\)) Subject: DISPATCHing QUIC-related work in Vancouver Message-Id: <79D7CB95-3B81-4A65-A118-F5636F0899A4@mnot.net> Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 09:41:45 +1100 To: IETF QUIC WG , HTTP Working Group , ART Area , tsv-area@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.40.2.2.4) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 22:41:56 -0000 As discussed in the Transport Area meeting in Singapore, there are a = number of proposals for extensions to QUIC, application protocols using = QUIC, and other QUIC-related work items. While the QUIC Working Group has discussed adopting a limited number of = extensions in the near future, it was felt that a DISPATCH-like* forum = might help to route QUIC-related work appropriately. So, as an experiment, the QUIC Working Group will hold a third, = hour-long session in Vancouver to discuss proposals for new QUIC = extensions, applications, and related work not yet being considered for = adoption in QUIC or another Working Group. This session will enable people to raise their proposals, get feedback = on them, and allow the appropriate Area Directors to get a sense of what = work will be reasonable to continue. Such work might be adopted by the = QUIC WG (when it has capacity to take on new work), another existing = group, or it might require a BoF. If you have a proposal, please list it here: https://github.com/quicwg/dispatch/wiki/IETF107 ... by 2020-02-28. Kind regards, Lars, Lucas and Mark, QUIC WG Chairs * See for a = description of DISPATCH.= From nobody Wed Jan 29 16:13:16 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E645A12003F for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 16:13:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g-1p94vpilRo for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 16:13:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx36-out10.antispamcloud.com (mx36-out10.antispamcloud.com [209.126.121.30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 92267120018 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 16:13:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from xse196.mail2web.com ([66.113.196.196] helo=xse.mail2web.com) by mx181.antispamcloud.com with esmtp (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1iwxSH-000UNw-Mg for quic@ietf.org; Thu, 30 Jan 2020 01:13:11 +0100 Received: from xsmtp22.mail2web.com (unknown [10.100.68.61]) by xse.mail2web.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 487LR63N49z4b1V for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 16:13:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.5.2.13] (helo=xmail03.myhosting.com) by xsmtp22.mail2web.com with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1iwxSE-0003KK-Bi for quic@ietf.org; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 16:13:06 -0800 Received: (qmail 8456 invoked from network); 30 Jan 2020 00:13:05 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.105]) (Authenticated-user:_huitema@huitema.net@[172.58.43.84]) (envelope-sender ) by xmail03.myhosting.com (qmail-ldap-1.03) with ESMTPA for ; 30 Jan 2020 00:13:05 -0000 Subject: Re: Proposed extension for delayed acknowledgments To: Ian Swett , Jana Iyengar , Mike Bishop , Ian Swett , QUIC WG , Matt Joras , Lucas Pardue References: <20200127135053.GB19655@ubuntu-dmitri> <20200127184007.GC19655@ubuntu-dmitri> <20200129204642.GB18661@ubuntu-dmitri> From: Christian Huitema Autocrypt: addr=huitema@huitema.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFIRX8gBCAC26usy/Ya38IqaLBSu33vKD6hP5Yw390XsWLaAZTeQR64OJEkoOdXpvcOS HWfMIlD5s5+oHfLe8jjmErFAXYJ8yytPj1fD2OdSKAe1TccUBiOXT8wdVxSr5d0alExVv/LO I/vA2aU1TwOkVHKSapD7j8/HZBrqIWRrXUSj2f5n9tY2nJzG9KRzSG0giaJWBfUFiGb4lvsy IaCaIU0YpfkDDk6PtK5YYzuCeF0B+O7N9LhDu/foUUc4MNq4K3EKDPb2FL1Hrv0XHpkXeMRZ olpH8SUFUJbmi+zYRuUgcXgMZRmZFL1tu6z9h6gY4/KPyF9aYot6zG28Qk/BFQRtj7V1ABEB AAG0J0NocmlzdGlhbiBIdWl0ZW1hIDxodWl0ZW1hQGh1aXRlbWEubmV0PokBOQQTAQIAIwUC UhFfyAIbLwcLCQgHAwIBBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJEJNDCbJVyA1yhbYH/1ud6x6m VqGIp0JcZUfSQO8w+TjugqxCyGNn+w/6Qb5O/xENxNQ4HaMQ5uSRK9n8WKKDDRSzwZ4syKKf wbkfj05vgFxrjCynVbm1zs2X2aGXh+PxPL/WHUaxzEP7KjYbLtCUZDRzOOrm+0LMktngT/k3 6+EZoLEM52hwwpIAzJoscyEz7QfqMOZtFm6xQnlvDQeIrHx0KUvwo/vgDLK3SuruG1CSHcR0 D24kEEUa044AIUKBS3b0b8AR7f6mP2NcnLpdsibtpabi9BzqAidcY/EjTaoea46HXALk/eJd 6OLkLE6UQe1PPzQC4jB7rErX2BxnSkHDw50xMgLRcl5/b1a5AQ0EUhFfyAEIAKp7Cp8lqKTV CC9QiAf6QTIjW+lie5J44Ad++0k8gRgANZVWubQuCQ71gxDWLtxYfFkEXjG4TXV/MUtnOliG 5rc2E+ih6Dg61Y5PQakm9OwPIsOx+2R+iSW325ngln2UQrVPgloO83QiUoi7mBJPbcHlxkhZ bd3+EjFxSLIQogt29sTcg2oSh4oljUpz5niTt69IOfZx21kf29NfDE+Iw56gfrxI2ywZbu5o G+d0ZSp0lsovygpk4jK04fDTq0vxjEU5HjPcsXC4CSZdq5E2DrF4nOh1UHkHzeaXdYR2Bn1Y wTePfaHBFlvQzI+Li/Q6AD/uxbTM0vIcsUxrv3MNHCUAEQEAAYkCPgQYAQIACQUCUhFfyAIb LgEpCRCTQwmyVcgNcsBdIAQZAQIABgUCUhFfyAAKCRC22tOSFDh1UOlBB/94RsCJepNvmi/c YiNmMnm0mKb6vjv43OsHkqrrCqJSfo95KHyl5Up4JEp8tiJMyYT2mp4IsirZHxz/5lqkw9Az tcGAF3GlFsj++xTyD07DXlNeddwTKlqPRi/b8sppjtWur6Pm+wnAHp0mQ7GidhxHccFCl65w uT7S/ocb1MjrTgnAMiz+x87d48n1UJ7yIdI41Wpg2XFZiA9xPBiDuuoPwFj14/nK0elV5Dvq 4/HVgfurb4+fd74PV/CC/dmd7hg0ZRlgnB5rFUcFO7ywb7/TvICIIaLWcI42OJDSZjZ/MAzz BeXm263lHh+kFxkh2LxEHnQGHCHGpTYyi4Z3dv03HtkH/1SI8joQMQq00Bv+RdEbJXfEExrT u4gtdZAihwvy97OPA2nCdTAHm/phkzryMeOaOztI4PS8u2Ce5lUB6P/HcGtK/038KdX5MYST Fn8KUDt4o29bkv0CUXwDzS3oTzPNtGdryBkRMc9b+yn9+AdwFEH4auhiTQXPMnl0+G3nhKr7 jvzVFJCRif3OAhEm4vmBNDE3uuaXFQnbK56GJrnqVN+KX5Z3M7X3fA8UcVCGOEHXRP/aubiw Ngawj0V9x+43kUapFp+nF69R53UI65YtJ95ec4PTO/Edvap8h1UbdEOc4+TiYwY1TBuIKltY 1cnrjgAWUh/Ucvr++/KbD9tD6C8= Message-ID: <59420244-634e-5194-0aab-685f0522bd15@huitema.net> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 16:13:06 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.4.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------62461BAEB3BBA46A0F7A0D0F" Content-Language: en-US X-Originating-IP: 66.113.196.196 X-Spampanel-Domain: xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Username: 66.113.196.196/32 Authentication-Results: antispamcloud.com; auth=pass smtp.auth=66.113.196.196/32@xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Class: unsure X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.15) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: Mvzo4OR0dZXEDF/gcnlw0YfsolMNZcEgL2mqy3zzv3mpSDasLI4SayDByyq9LIhVUZbR67CQ7/vm /hHDJU4RXkTNWdUk1Ol2OGx3IfrIJKywOmJyM1qr8uRnWBrbSAGDcnqpk5VeF3xR4kF6iVwRtbgN zB/4Jkrw1eDLcif59ftNSal6XODfT3gCzlmly1lCU7Tmz6iKnkQL9gqsxD347235Nhqq+/HvroPq 8GSPg+60/QPNqXybIny9WGhadIo/ICKD+bz1QuA8GxLVsb4edbyme9ldZJ7uNXfg/GfS8fUvP/L5 rCqHDsKZM+xa1iwJX+gRCHfMVnsAk591zk0uilUI+ZL4xWiN8NS6C+dmX6OEdA4u1aThyWrQ/ou2 +v/lmX4Em37yFgrCB6NHRn1g+f3uncIqYSL3lhh5c81YyJqFoLZMmkWsaurVZfvqROaDnDtHb8z5 dpPkEuJ8Snwqla7jUnW3hy14Yji8fo+4xCnSRo4Rcu5Z37rMuDjCny5fE9ykbJ7I9co1MAEE3ruN Xsm8UJsAPvDcVSKtDCYkioPY5Qx4fJOk03R5fJtf/Dv/dkIzS7m4GUpXCY1Y3j3ilWEbX+OBfQvZ a2Z4uSB28NKCS+noqnLkLJ1dbiS8jHdfS/h3L19wBD7W52nkWY1elV6MH4aIA+AKRV3+wlQRSLIM 7OYFXYdC3tRq275m/U3VjobH6hnobczuiVN3uErzhbdCp3Zd9clP8wSiJZWbJCj+xRrjVmRxpGtS cvUmgj1LeOaVIUus1tSPQctgqVCyXV2jZAOanSBpz6Rja2u/0jLQCJInbLHeNB2v6HNwfYA664kH xeYwT2BQsE4Pf+6rf/ysta6u1iHEyuS7GD1uvcoy5OAzbSvXWq7FeIoGSF6XJOYIJd4MvQ0Nf4Ec bvHO1diDanHV9KirFAIIecsyj+YNTo81GR+jDXFsz/ZQnbbTizvwlZsrbltGiZoUh+c+5pFVgpT1 b21uZVckGp0ccOa2XhkGbmsUNPNkere1WheNsVXmhO8BzADiszcWR9bz/SDtF09JpSbuuCeiIDK0 C/0= X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@quarantine11.antispamcloud.com Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 00:13:15 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------62461BAEB3BBA46A0F7A0D0F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 1/29/2020 1:34 PM, Ian Swett wrote: > Good point Dmitri, > PR(https://github.com/janaiyengar/ack-frequency/pull/21) created. > > I didn't define a codepoint for the reordering field, because I > believe it needs more discussion and isn't critical for initial interop. > > On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 3:46 PM Dmitri Tikhonov > > wrote: > > On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 03:46:16PM -0800, Jana Iyengar wrote: > > Thanks for proposing the TP: I'll update the draft to use it, > knowing that > > we're squatting on it. > > And 0xAF (obvious reasons) for the ACK-FREQUENCY frame? > Cool. Good way to test encoding of frame type on two bytes! -- Christian Huitema --------------62461BAEB3BBA46A0F7A0D0F Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


On 1/29/2020 1:34 PM, Ian Swett wrote:
Good point Dmitri, PR(https://github.com/janaiyengar/ack-frequency/pull/21) created.

I didn't define a codepoint for the reordering field, because I believe it needs more discussion and isn't critical for initial interop.

On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 3:46 PM Dmitri Tikhonov <dtikhonov@litespeedtech.com> wrote:
On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 03:46:16PM -0800, Jana Iyengar wrote:
> Thanks for proposing the TP: I'll update the draft to use it, knowing that
> we're squatting on it.

And 0xAF (obvious reasons) for the ACK-FREQUENCY frame?


Cool. Good way to test encoding of frame type on two bytes!

-- Christian Huitema

--------------62461BAEB3BBA46A0F7A0D0F-- From nobody Wed Jan 29 17:33:32 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1397120059 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 17:33:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DWwnsfKlSv8o for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 17:33:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x12c.google.com (mail-lf1-x12c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 03001120044 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 17:33:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lf1-x12c.google.com with SMTP id b15so1115340lfc.4 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 17:33:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=t1iXRGeAbKeN5ArUTpBDs6S3g+Z46yCWccngFJ/0jjI=; b=aS+ZhZkcHgVVBZUtdQb7fYAujDHtDPUIiHbuRKgwz44teQI2yYDSMQ1U1qPoi1N2xL gkn3tmkfZ+5LuFDeRVpjY75rI0sfg6YzA/DnVKpLQa0kYc16JzExmqOszyWL3lcVZor4 UWKM7HTe0jxagougB8R9hVUrrGac36SNdotMZZ5g3ppWPbyMfGvXfzAKsP7lOiU97jQj e3PsZXHsDvULD6egRMvHvlNZrMd8QMR7MxuL7cvyI33wjlor5x1telG+enaav1aACigJ WKUaIx+C8eYxMHDqf0KhPp93f5+mrzkKUbdUOi2HBfkkKbCAKAGUM63iSCrUmX4PbATy An0A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=t1iXRGeAbKeN5ArUTpBDs6S3g+Z46yCWccngFJ/0jjI=; b=D5xyddP83NPMq90SUXgwiPQ2BBtXiddfeK148oqOkvtda1a+V5ufEWZ6llN3pCffgp x54wVYoPdM4//0wA++kSWYhGPQBxIV/T1LPLGf7soVofWVaKg9hdc/JktsttOVrH1tqj WpenaJzXiQs7YZjf+6sqERlaz/IAXZgWryLXP2BFCx0zzX11myRA8wJcAm0A4oAryWJi nEIOjABeZybHtz8Rm7uXBJacHbRaoSgM3drsxWN8/sxqnu7jp/vy4eDHHtQ2Hm4DWM1M EZP2KCHoXjxtk788e3eUp1B4U3uYwTVqOadj/sK7+Q3vaZEswQn+fl91Idy6eq+JVIzu +7eA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWUEpVzgHQX8cROclr7rUR0LyoDtLMzKXJkvXMsOl98wrXjV+Ai oBEE2NueQ2g1Q+39IjUTxCHTI3CTFz+yA1h/tEA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxqdqV8tmUe0BA9AECFyCQ50xvwYp+PH/Ks79UtOJHuScaLp4Ajz3iIPbhzEAcd08xWWanoZhVClOM6CqlVFwk= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:44a3:: with SMTP id c3mr1149248lfm.1.1580348007116; Wed, 29 Jan 2020 17:33:27 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200127135053.GB19655@ubuntu-dmitri> <20200127184007.GC19655@ubuntu-dmitri> <20200129204642.GB18661@ubuntu-dmitri> <59420244-634e-5194-0aab-685f0522bd15@huitema.net> In-Reply-To: <59420244-634e-5194-0aab-685f0522bd15@huitema.net> From: David Schinazi Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2020 17:33:16 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Proposed extension for delayed acknowledgments To: Christian Huitema Cc: Ian Swett , Jana Iyengar , Mike Bishop , Ian Swett , QUIC WG , Matt Joras , Lucas Pardue Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000095f414059d5171fc" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 01:33:31 -0000 --00000000000095f414059d5171fc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" To facilitate experimentation and to avoid collisions, I've created a temporary registry on our wiki: https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/wiki/Temporary-IANA-Registry I'd encourage draft writers to avoid TBD and instead pick a random value and add it to the wiki. Hope this helps, David On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 4:13 PM Christian Huitema wrote: > > On 1/29/2020 1:34 PM, Ian Swett wrote: > > Good point Dmitri, PR(https://github.com/janaiyengar/ack-frequency/pull/21) > created. > > I didn't define a codepoint for the reordering field, because I believe it > needs more discussion and isn't critical for initial interop. > > On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 3:46 PM Dmitri Tikhonov < > dtikhonov@litespeedtech.com> wrote: > >> On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 03:46:16PM -0800, Jana Iyengar wrote: >> > Thanks for proposing the TP: I'll update the draft to use it, knowing >> that >> > we're squatting on it. >> >> And 0xAF (obvious reasons) for the ACK-FREQUENCY frame? >> > > Cool. Good way to test encoding of frame type on two bytes! > > -- Christian Huitema > --00000000000095f414059d5171fc Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
To facilitate experimentation and to avoid collisions, I&#= 39;ve created a temporary registry on our wiki:

htt= ps://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/wiki/Temporary-IANA-Registry

I'd encourage draft writers to avoid TBD and instead pi= ck a random value and add it to the wiki.

Ho= pe this helps,
David

On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 4:13 PM Christi= an Huitema <huitema@huitema.net> wrote:
=20 =20 =20


On 1/29/2020 1:34 PM, Ian Swett wrote:
=20
Good point Dmitri, PR(https://github.com/jan= aiyengar/ack-frequency/pull/21) created.

I didn't define a codepoint for the reordering field, because I believe it needs more discussion and isn't critical for initial interop.

On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 3:46 PM Dmitri Tikhonov <dtikhonov@litespeedtech.com> wrote:
On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 03:46:16PM -0800, Jana Iyengar wrote:
> Thanks for proposing the TP: I'll update the draft to us= e it, knowing that
> we're squatting on it.

And 0xAF (obvious reasons) for the ACK-FREQUENCY frame?


Cool. Good way to test encoding of frame type on two bytes!

-- Christian Huitema

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Thu, 30 Jan 2020 09:07:57 +0000 From: Magnus Westerlund To: "lucaspardue.24.7@gmail.com" CC: "fenix@fb.com" , "mbishop@evequefou.be" , "ianswett@google.com" , "jri.ietf@gmail.com" , "quic@ietf.org" Subject: Re: Proposed Charter Text Thread-Topic: Proposed Charter Text Thread-Index: AQHV1QxjvPDTcWegp0eJWJe1gsp2N6f6YuYAgAQt/wCAACJd4P//zegAgACGTeCAADI6gIACdxsAgAAK9gCAATOqAA== Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 09:07:57 +0000 Message-ID: <18ea46cf7536fc266c96067a782a3d5b927cc5e7.camel@ericsson.com> References: <3d2e70c1f581579a97124c31b096f0bda8b053b5.camel@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: sv-SE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com; x-originating-ip: [158.174.130.211] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 374a6b86-611f-4919-a5ca-08d7a563e620 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: AM0PR07MB6049: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; 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micalg="sha-256"; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; boundary="=-ksRKDDCbiQbQOEadZ3gV" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 374a6b86-611f-4919-a5ca-08d7a563e620 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 30 Jan 2020 09:07:57.6359 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: HT6hLOWr7SjF+uC0+K0cBXIfQ8+W7K8FS5/hdgPYYMLO/olcl332fICxy9TUv/eUMjFKyY1iy6JGZe33WwvGZ0N9G8YmLTe8ZlvJBAeSpr8= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM0PR07MB6049 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 09:08:03 -0000 --=-ksRKDDCbiQbQOEadZ3gV Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks Lucas, Yes, I will update the draft charter with this proposal.=20 Cheers Magnus On Wed, 2020-01-29 at 14:46 +0000, Lucas Pardue wrote: > Since we have only one mapping, is it fine to talk more solidly about it = in > the third focus area? For example, the paragraph could be rewritten as su= ch: >=20 > The third focus area describes the mapping between the HTTP application > protocol and the transport facilities of QUIC. This mapping will have=20 > performance characteristics comparable with HTTP/2, and provide extension > mechanisms similar to HTTP/2. Upon completion of this=20 > mapping, work to define additional mappings may be included by updates to= =20 > this charter, or may be worked on by other working groups. --=20 Cheers Magnus Westerlund=20 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Networks, Ericsson Research ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Torshamnsgatan 23 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --=-ksRKDDCbiQbQOEadZ3gV Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADCABgkqhkiG9w0BBwEAAKCCEtww ggYHMIID76ADAgECAhALRm3NcHtuMGWutmt5cXntMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBCwUAMEcxCzAJBgNVBAYT AlNFMREwDwYDVQQKDAhFcmljc3NvbjElMCMGA1UEAwwcRXJpY3Nzb24gTkwgSW5kaXZpZHVhbCBD 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+0000 From: Magnus Westerlund To: "mbishop@evequefou.be" , "magnus.westerlund=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org" , "jri.ietf@gmail.com" CC: "fenix@fb.com" , "ianswett@google.com" , "quic@ietf.org" Subject: Re: Proposed Charter Text Thread-Topic: Proposed Charter Text Thread-Index: AQHV1QxjvPDTcWegp0eJWJe1gsp2N6f6YuYAgAQt/wCAACJd4P//zegAgACGTeCAADI6gIACdxsAgAFB+AA= Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 09:19:55 +0000 Message-ID: <269e8e73b792523247587725709c3e1fde7d0645.camel@ericsson.com> References: <3d2e70c1f581579a97124c31b096f0bda8b053b5.camel@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <3d2e70c1f581579a97124c31b096f0bda8b053b5.camel@ericsson.com> Accept-Language: sv-SE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com; x-originating-ip: [158.174.130.211] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 53d38bd7-7ae3-48e4-246e-08d7a5659207 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: 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yT2amB6+YSVySuOXZdk4/VEwiIlpJFaEYybRdoDVijAkB5BCsgWV89wKRxVkUTL9CPK92BK5yEVyUSTD4r95J6gz1dXGJ7oZDg2NjMmALqox7C0TeMLxNZ/1Xz/JTGwY8IZgY0Ffzs+SzQzhPleQEVfpGX/QcxOhyhWoePLKAMDVZyhoLAqrCfcLFLnJ8wZxEApKuc5fOOypq4hAeT5iC8UAGgOCmGWAZXRfMrLjFOTljRqkAnUGfXFVrMPxdfcFv9hrAztQraQ4e7lTOeiUf7HgN6jxPId+lf7qKiJOYdyaZJv2WqtxldbWD86vdIWkp9x6KLKnDo+3/V8LgensgoA8mbSL1Uda4/Ylp3eCuvA1mYPQ3NdoNuLMw7Jv6V4sob7uqiS0zzXAdSSoU7h3nNRjFSJmbsDUvnckXznmyUd+heXKg0HT5UML+4woExX9 x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: R8obzzdkpm9/fhpYsTAtxxEnoIAIT8dYQYNbHhHrwJpwTDMAJVMVhkpJKcN9j4VAuUG9ILhjKJ+lVy/PcvHbbF+qw65rZoRns+MRO9X0DRVMpnuyeLKsxd5iRimTCdGEXJ0X5fud8FSip1sfgbJHPg== x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg="sha-256"; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; boundary="=-UARgI9840HamYQnoOn8D" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 53d38bd7-7ae3-48e4-246e-08d7a5659207 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 30 Jan 2020 09:19:55.5586 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: VXvJSXIwMm8XZfpqYhXVK1BtLq1E+Bgyr+2SaKlKr0KbW+g0B4d2WoPpDV+XxrfplrR5R4jY+Fsyrx9a2cSnExxlODJJErEJPUjAr+MBN0c= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM0PR07MB6180 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 09:20:01 -0000 --=-UARgI9840HamYQnoOn8D Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, 2020-01-29 at 14:07 +0000, Magnus Westerlund wrote: > On Mon, 2020-01-27 at 16:28 -0800, Jana Iyengar wrote: > >=20 > > - In the fifth focus area, "the Working Group will delivery a mechanism= to > > assist load balancers in their handling of QUIC." > > First, a nit: "delivery" --> "deliver". >=20 > Will fix.=20 >=20 > > Second, perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't remember that we agreed to del= iver > > a > > "mechanism" for this. A more inclusive phrasing here might be "will del= iver > > solutions for load balancers to handle QUIC traffic." >=20 > I would appreciate more feedback on this. Yes, a solution may not require= a > mechanism. I guess you envision simply that some guidance on how a load > balancer > can use what already exists rather than charter a requirement for somethi= ng > that > is a protocol change?=20 >=20 What does the group say about:=20 Additionally, the Working Group will deliver solutions that can improve loa= d balancers handling of QUIC traffic.=20 I have included this is the latest version saved in the datatracker.=20 Cheers Magnus Westerlund=20 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Networks, Ericsson Research ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Torshamnsgatan 23 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --=-UARgI9840HamYQnoOn8D Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 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Thu, 30 Jan 2020 09:25:11 +0000 From: Mirja Kuehlewind To: Magnus Westerlund , "mbishop@evequefou.be" , "jri.ietf@gmail.com" CC: "ianswett@google.com" , "quic@ietf.org" , "fenix@fb.com" Subject: Re: Proposed Charter Text Thread-Topic: Proposed Charter Text Thread-Index: AQHV1QxjvPDTcWegp0eJWJe1gsp2N6f6YuYAgAQt/wCAACJd4P//zegAgACGTeCAADI6gIACdxsAgAFB+ACAABI8AA== Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 09:25:11 +0000 Message-ID: References: <3d2e70c1f581579a97124c31b096f0bda8b053b5.camel@ericsson.com> <269e8e73b792523247587725709c3e1fde7d0645.camel@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <269e8e73b792523247587725709c3e1fde7d0645.camel@ericsson.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=mirja.kuehlewind@ericsson.com; x-originating-ip: [192.176.1.97] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: a6e34e6a-626e-49bb-4250-08d7a5664e43 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: AM0PR07MB6163: 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psprLueVQcBT6VYzRM+t2ozD2Rarhyvdluz9e3vLQp51ivA+a4mAd7pFYH4IRGbYHBr+H40bkrxnqiAI+e6wNSytvdLkAb5VO1+aBTd4EFKOysHEl8Fg+e8XetgOnaoHAjpm+1zghr4b5t4LCFFd64neZnuxZMDdSH9uSDdVonFNBGL+KVKd7EY6SXoiBCClQ7g3KE7KicLlIejN+qFJLE8uPcyPuHkZpGxgXPYpoiqtTChrKcSD4mSv0xFJ6vkqRjyxNHb9Lpm64G4CFMq5iRBuwHONACqIuJamkL99L6L+Fn0mF4Eu+i5x1SCUdm4NQQk2N07/1cdf2n+D63PsRBiQsUfu+gzKFj0lCrktP0AWtrnm9IQ8o7ZjP04m5etitmlf5Gfp6LU9LD1Ab0O4lBs7cMBbMt/uXR29j+6iwm7a3oT8DWLfnWvF81BtQWBR x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: VoTGWk/7RXkddJy3bk4ZsnUPAjOKf0Xl2Y/dbqYjhhAv+0LkCMrhfMt2gPTQsa0vAxz9XcN2+lHvEowRD2T5pliNVVpc6ASRjNcMjbE/JunKTV1yUr6S1VRx3tdcoOTaGyH+Owlo9fBqkQ8Q0ji+Jw== x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha256; boundary="B_3663224711_1744258935" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: a6e34e6a-626e-49bb-4250-08d7a5664e43 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 30 Jan 2020 09:25:11.3563 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: eRUcEXATvvBhiG9cAZI8um03nmVU9ySN8fW2/BmjUNEIkyenH8NlI2Ej1VSwpEmmOFrVPv+iFtjaxWcW+CrSTh+jLuec5TLouaQmRRnPEGs= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM0PR07MB6163 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 09:25:17 -0000 --B_3663224711_1744258935 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, I'm not sure if solution is much better than mechanism. I believe what we a= greed to is to provide guidance. Maybe we can just write that in the charter= : Additionally, the Working Group will provide guidance to support load bala= ncers in handling of QUIC traffic. ? Mirja =EF=BB=BFOn 30.01.20, 10:20, "QUIC on behalf of Magnus Westerlund" wrote= : On Wed, 2020-01-29 at 14:07 +0000, Magnus Westerlund wrote: > On Mon, 2020-01-27 at 16:28 -0800, Jana Iyengar wrote: > >=20 > > - In the fifth focus area, "the Working Group will delivery a mecha= nism to > > assist load balancers in their handling of QUIC." > > First, a nit: "delivery" --> "deliver". >=20 > Will fix.=20 >=20 > > Second, perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't remember that we agreed to= deliver > > a > > "mechanism" for this. A more inclusive phrasing here might be "will= deliver > > solutions for load balancers to handle QUIC traffic." >=20 > I would appreciate more feedback on this. Yes, a solution may not req= uire a > mechanism. I guess you envision simply that some guidance on how a lo= ad > balancer > can use what already exists rather than charter a requirement for som= ething > that > is a protocol change?=20 >=20 =20 What does the group say about:=20 =20 Additionally, the Working Group will deliver solutions that can improve= load balancers handling of QUIC traffic.=20 =20 =20 I have included this is the latest version saved in the datatracker.=20 =20 =20 Cheers =20 Magnus Westerlund=20 =20 =20 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Networks, Ericsson Research ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Torshamnsgatan 23 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- =20 =20 --B_3663224711_1744258935 Content-type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-transfer-encoding: base64 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[47.22.54.182]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o17sm3182457qtj.80.2020.01.30.06.45.06 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 30 Jan 2020 06:45:07 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 09:45:04 -0500 From: Dmitri Tikhonov To: David Schinazi Cc: Christian Huitema , Jana Iyengar , Ian Swett , Lucas Pardue , Matt Joras , Mike Bishop , Ian Swett , QUIC WG Subject: Re: Proposed extension for delayed acknowledgments Message-ID: <20200130144503.GC20300@ubuntu-dmitri> Mail-Followup-To: David Schinazi , Christian Huitema , Jana Iyengar , Ian Swett , Lucas Pardue , Matt Joras , Mike Bishop , Ian Swett , QUIC WG References: <20200127135053.GB19655@ubuntu-dmitri> <20200127184007.GC19655@ubuntu-dmitri> <20200129204642.GB18661@ubuntu-dmitri> <59420244-634e-5194-0aab-685f0522bd15@huitema.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 14:45:11 -0000 Thanks, David! I added loss-bits and delayed-acked extensions to the registry. - Dmitri. On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 05:33:16PM -0800, David Schinazi wrote: > To facilitate experimentation and to avoid collisions, I've created a > temporary registry on our wiki: > > https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/wiki/Temporary-IANA-Registry > > I'd encourage draft writers to avoid TBD and instead pick a random value > and add it to the wiki. > > Hope this helps, > David > > On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 4:13 PM Christian Huitema > wrote: > > > > > On 1/29/2020 1:34 PM, Ian Swett wrote: > > > > Good point Dmitri, PR(https://github.com/janaiyengar/ack-frequency/pull/21) > > created. > > > > I didn't define a codepoint for the reordering field, because I believe it > > needs more discussion and isn't critical for initial interop. > > > > On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 3:46 PM Dmitri Tikhonov < > > dtikhonov@litespeedtech.com> wrote: > > > >> On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 03:46:16PM -0800, Jana Iyengar wrote: > >> > Thanks for proposing the TP: I'll update the draft to use it, knowing > >> that > >> > we're squatting on it. > >> > >> And 0xAF (obvious reasons) for the ACK-FREQUENCY frame? > >> > > > > Cool. Good way to test encoding of frame type on two bytes! > > > > -- Christian Huitema > > From nobody Thu Jan 30 06:48:19 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23D6E1200FE for ; Thu, 30 Jan 2020 06:48:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.748 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.748 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CHb_dmtZ0CD3 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 2020 06:48:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vk1-xa2a.google.com (mail-vk1-xa2a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::a2a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C1BA9120103 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 2020 06:48:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-vk1-xa2a.google.com with SMTP id t129so1090958vkg.6 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 2020 06:48:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=SZ+3v2yGg6A8XvYMcTNEYPrxinKez78NFrf6I1PdVUE=; b=C8VQs05cJlLGPFxwVEJ26uWrHxNXg2ecNAWP2s7KJg6qgiAL5zQwgpverxxZYFhWmE eB+AgDUyXTgWdi3oy5xBu/H8bb+JXdbx9nBzN9eFyeQ6asDcsFXZe6uGcQoI6hQujzo6 YTB0CUuOOjVXWijumitcfDildMxw+w+2R5b6Bq+D+WxxZmmZfVD4b4D5TyKwf7fiY2t5 WRO9NSgqs4lqeGXWrvpZ1krF55kkiy7cTjO5sBxKHaPhi6/1bNmMbosXK799C34jeRjp CvCldSYhG93WerXgZt7IV9E06EpcQDL3fdGMHRVJ/lahb2LJ4Pp9n5vfwaTBGFVdNJOk LuaA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=SZ+3v2yGg6A8XvYMcTNEYPrxinKez78NFrf6I1PdVUE=; b=DN1D1emH1MEqs1TygvukjS//Xv1Z5zc45h/sSwbJAa+Usfjd2JT8jDAYKKLZufXne0 KW2sC/OdBR8wpR46oIe3d9ldgHumJXMnXLjmTWwEf/+d3nEoMjPn9WDo8m8tyYRF1fb2 FacgEMiiQ1Xny95qwzRSnf2yplhM4vyBj/hnHCbjbye2Qib6gXI9s6pFxuDCIlq2Cyqj ITi52XtrI/T5ZLjr/F8vMB/pZsfL8Dbt+GJkd6p/qt5OUAJ1hxR76PaXzlGtxzZek4oh zydXeHlXwrHsr2Z0E12CFo5pnRcts39tCLGPFeG/I2hkNX6jBzhhw8zAkCMdpwz2S3cL RDmw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXeaKYhpDbIp0YG+0JrjlhU9dDxMEpO2slgsLpCyZVKM6RsWFQu Jo/XE9J+w3KabnYeuHqGxWk+3pyzou9KwO/k7Uk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzGRtDEgcCVr4ME5BmF6NRQNwNk97RLE0bkLTuIaGcedjsCDJda/pD1EqA9tZv5iJrUyOHKr3zM85voUj/efXo= X-Received: by 2002:a1f:9d16:: with SMTP id g22mr3044701vke.22.1580395696793; Thu, 30 Jan 2020 06:48:16 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200127135053.GB19655@ubuntu-dmitri> <20200127184007.GC19655@ubuntu-dmitri> <20200129204642.GB18661@ubuntu-dmitri> <59420244-634e-5194-0aab-685f0522bd15@huitema.net> <20200130144503.GC20300@ubuntu-dmitri> In-Reply-To: <20200130144503.GC20300@ubuntu-dmitri> From: Lucas Pardue Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 14:48:08 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Proposed extension for delayed acknowledgments To: David Schinazi , Christian Huitema , Jana Iyengar , Ian Swett , Lucas Pardue , Matt Joras , Mike Bishop , Ian Swett , QUIC WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001caf08059d5c8cbb" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 14:48:19 -0000 --0000000000001caf08059d5c8cbb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Agreed, thanks for taking the initiative and making that page David. On Thu, 30 Jan 2020, 14:45 Dmitri Tikhonov, wrote: > Thanks, David! > > I added loss-bits and delayed-acked extensions to the registry. > > - Dmitri. > > On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 05:33:16PM -0800, David Schinazi wrote: > > To facilitate experimentation and to avoid collisions, I've created a > > temporary registry on our wiki: > > > > https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/wiki/Temporary-IANA-Registry > > > > I'd encourage draft writers to avoid TBD and instead pick a random value > > and add it to the wiki. > > > > Hope this helps, > > David > > > > On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 4:13 PM Christian Huitema > > wrote: > > > > > > > > On 1/29/2020 1:34 PM, Ian Swett wrote: > > > > > > Good point Dmitri, PR( > https://github.com/janaiyengar/ack-frequency/pull/21) > > > created. > > > > > > I didn't define a codepoint for the reordering field, because I > believe it > > > needs more discussion and isn't critical for initial interop. > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 3:46 PM Dmitri Tikhonov < > > > dtikhonov@litespeedtech.com> wrote: > > > > > >> On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 03:46:16PM -0800, Jana Iyengar wrote: > > >> > Thanks for proposing the TP: I'll update the draft to use it, > knowing > > >> that > > >> > we're squatting on it. > > >> > > >> And 0xAF (obvious reasons) for the ACK-FREQUENCY frame? > > >> > > > > > > Cool. Good way to test encoding of frame type on two bytes! > > > > > > -- Christian Huitema > > > > --0000000000001caf08059d5c8cbb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Agreed, thanks for taking the initiative and making that = page David.


On Thu, 30 Jan 2020, 14:45 Dmitri Ti= khonov, <dtikhonov@litesp= eedtech.com> wrote:
Thanks, = David!

I added loss-bits and delayed-acked extensions to the registry.

=C2=A0 - Dmitri.

On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 05:33:16PM -0800, David Schinazi wrote:
> To facilitate experimentation and to avoid collisions, I've create= d a
> temporary registry on our wiki:
>
> https://github.com= /quicwg/base-drafts/wiki/Temporary-IANA-Registry
>
> I'd encourage draft writers to avoid TBD and instead pick a random= value
> and add it to the wiki.
>
> Hope this helps,
> David
>
> On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 4:13 PM Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema= .net>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > On 1/29/2020 1:34 PM, Ian Swett wrote:
> >
> > Good point Dmitri, PR(https= ://github.com/janaiyengar/ack-frequency/pull/21)
> > created.
> >
> > I didn't define a codepoint for the reordering field, because= I believe it
> > needs more discussion and isn't critical for initial interop.=
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 3:46 PM Dmitri Tikhonov <
> > dtikhonov@litespeedtech.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 03:46:16PM -0800, Jana Iyengar wrote:=
> >> > Thanks for proposing the TP: I'll update the draft t= o use it, knowing
> >> that
> >> > we're squatting on it.
> >>
> >> And 0xAF (obvious reasons) for the ACK-FREQUENCY frame?
> >>
> >
> > Cool. Good way to test encoding of frame type on two bytes!
> >
> > -- Christian Huitema
> >
--0000000000001caf08059d5c8cbb-- From nobody Thu Jan 30 13:18:27 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 469FA120073 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 2020 13:18:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n2UG9D0SzsJi for ; Thu, 30 Jan 2020 13:18:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x233.google.com (mail-lj1-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8904712006F for ; Thu, 30 Jan 2020 13:18:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x233.google.com with SMTP id a13so4919216ljm.10 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 2020 13:18:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=qzhKggGSAJHvKWQaLdYH9X/nVTuohXHM6DjSLTIu+nE=; b=pKQdPwpQLq76jD60zHegqfEoWbOBxTv8xPKfAHBO9x4FJRoFsyUH/jAO5YldtIjjEe ks9EdhVT6wGPxJ+AhxJHClomKgfe14oWklltCB0m7xYGJfWMdn6pWJsXVTCcHW3cp2mG wTITOib7+8Ca4oxUMcxUaAX0a3a5ehPefqfZU/xN7+p8SJB/V1pieHTidTpTs+WgM9pi ZAjkK9PNpmKUSlSkVmO1496Wb3n7zqq8mUlT8fOTIF99/1u0Sf9HzXXqLNigBgw0EA2e voqTJ/kYYyck4cLOQTisxg8yVRbT0kZfmk2H+H4RUUCgRWcTEX7hBosAbPH06tAU7BPS iwug== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=qzhKggGSAJHvKWQaLdYH9X/nVTuohXHM6DjSLTIu+nE=; b=OME24K00ruIk9DxKqnA1J1OccUbbBVB9KnxiTI9SV+TVYUs5FaCXzwaeyIFtM17Vcl ENhoqZxF1v1lxpRMJE4hjWUXyWf0O+NdmjNYn7WqaRUuQ4YzxH7m2547bJXrqGvVd37Q jbKuzXjyVInBZZTigb0XuOYSF0OD0pt5XdX4yVSOCSpDgio7GcpchTE+XbdB2jOG5Svj Y7cAQEHcaG9iUoP42jx9PNHkTyhAKCDYhIts+m63As8MPrD6enFGfUwelokp4VQ6C9w2 u8vrvgfYW7NNz90D9j/dCGfB5s022GONyDJQA2+Fsgbqo1zJ4FU/E1warXkdLh7vwBrE 3eqw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAW/6xarE8LV8tm4UcM9evhE1WkxGkyBRE/0314skrlvSdAZwD2A QpKU6YjPoHlYjZ/9+i5UkQpVo+4NfPbdlO4o/RVzGcy8 X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqz0Nh6HIgfH4TceCx20MN20ZLTYaBVIjWU/ly5vD4gVTprXCOjFEHfT12kkOW0K2BF9iTnADqgt4tY65GwOqI4= X-Received: by 2002:a05:651c:10f:: with SMTP id a15mr4077736ljb.237.1580419100601; Thu, 30 Jan 2020 13:18:20 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 15:17:53 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Proposed Charter Text To: Magnus Westerlund Cc: "quic@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001673a0059d61ffe4" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 21:18:26 -0000 --0000000000001673a0059d61ffe4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, Magnus, I have one question. On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 6:22 AM Magnus Westerlund wrote: > WG, > > Below you will find the draft charter text proposed by ADs and WG chairs. I > intended to have the IESG agree to send this out for External Review at > the next > IESG meeting (2020-02-06). So if you have any comments and proposal for > changes > now is a good time. > > Below is a copy of the current draft in the datatracker: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-quic/ > > Diff: > > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-quic%2Fwithmilestones-01.txt&url2=https%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-quic%2Fwithmilestones-01-00.txt > > QUIC WG Draft Charter (01-00) > > The QUIC working group will provide standards-track specifications for a > UDP- > based, stream-multiplexing, encrypted transport protocol, based on > pre- > standardization implementation and deployment experience. > > Key goals for QUIC are: > > - Minimizing connection establishment and overall transport latency for > applications, starting with HTTP/2; - Providing multiplexing without > head-of-line blocking; - Requiring only changes to path endpoints to enable > deployment; - Enabling multipath and forward error correction extensions; > and - > Providing always-secure transport, using TLS 1.3 by default. > > The work of the group will have five main focus areas, corresponding to > five > core deliverables. > > The first of these is the core transport work, which will describe the wire > format, along with the mechanisms for connection establishment, stream > multiplexing, data reliability, loss detection and recovery, congestion > control, and options negotiation. Work on congestion control will describe > use > of a standardized congestion controller as a default scheme for QUIC. > Defining > new congestion control schemes is explicitly out of scope for this group. > QUIC > is expected to support rapid, distributed development and testing of > features. > > The second of these focus areas is security. This work will describe how > the > protocol uses TLS 1.3 for key negotiation and will also describe how those > keys > are used to provide confidentiality and integrity protection of both > application data and QUIC headers. This work will ensure that QUIC has > security > and privacy properties that are at least as good as a stack composed of > TLS 1.3 > using TCP (or MPTCP when using multipath). > > The third focus area will describe mappings between specific application > protocols and the transport facilities of QUIC. The first mapping will be a > description of HTTP/2 semantics using QUIC, specifically with the goal of > minimizing web latency using QUIC. This mapping will accommodate the > extension > mechanisms defined in the HTTP/2 specification. Upon completion of that > mapping, additional protocols may be added by updating this charter to > include > them, or working elsewhere. > > The fourth focus area will be on extensions to core protocol facilities, to > enable datagram delivery, version negotiation, and multipath capabilities. > Other extensions are out of the scope of this charter. > > The fifth focus area will provide an Applicability and Manageability > Statement, > describing how, and under what circumstances, QUIC may be safely used, and > describing deployment and manageability implications of the protocol. > When Mark was talking about QUIC futures in TSVAREA at IETF 106, I asked about this focus area. Mirja and Brian have faithfully kept this work going from the early days of the working group (timeline is at https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-quic-manageability/), but it's not moving very fast ( https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-quic-manageability-06.txt is a six-month diff), and I noted that MOPS had a QUIC troubleshooting discussion at IETF 106 (in their first meeting after being chartered) ( https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/106/materials/slides-106-mops-quic-and-streaming-00 ). I pointed out that this work was in QUIC because there was no other place to put it when QUIC was chartered, but now that MOPS was chartered, and seems to have such topics in scope, there was an opportunity to move it into MOPS and let the operator types chew on it. (My experience as "Spin Bit AD" was that operators do show up in QUIC when management topics are on the agenda, but I don't think they've engaged much on this draft). Actual minutes from TSVAREA 106: Spencer: Operations/mgmt draft isn't on the list. Huh? mnot: Yes, they're important, but not getting enough attention right now. Mirja: Those are WG items. Spencer: We had QUIC ops/mgmt considerations in the QUIC working group charter because there was nowhere else to put it. Now that Media Operations (MOPS) has been chartered, they're already talking about measuring troubleshooting QUIC from an operator perspective in their first working group session. Maybe this document should go into MOPS? I understood Mark to say "interesting idea, we'll think about it". Is that still on the table someplace? Best, Spencer Additionally, the Working Group will delivery a mechanism to assist load > balancers in their handling of QUIC. > > Current practices for network management of transport protocols include the > ability to apply access control lists (ACLs), hashing of flows for > equal-cost > multipath routing (ECMP), directional signaling of flows, signaling of flow > setup and teardown, and the ability to export information about flows for > accounting purposes. The QUIC protocol need not be defined to enable each > of > these abilities, or enable them in the same way as they are enabled by TCP > when > used with TLS 1.3, but the working group must consider the impact of the > protocol on network management practices, reflecting the tensions > described in > RFC 7258. > > Note that consensus is required both for changes to the current protocol > mechanisms and retention of current mechanisms. In particular, because > something is in the initial document set does not imply that there is > consensus > around the feature or around how it is specified. > > The QUIC working group will work closely with the HTTPbis working group, > especially on the QUIC mapping for HTTP/2. > > -- > Cheers > > Magnus Westerlund > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Networks, Ericsson Research > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 > Torshamnsgatan 23 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 > SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > --0000000000001673a0059d61ffe4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi, Magnus,=C2=A0
<= div dir=3D"ltr">
I have one question.=C2=A0

On Mon, Jan 27, 20= 20 at 6:22 AM Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:<= br>
WG,

Below you will find the draft charter text proposed by ADs and WG chairs. I=
intended to have the IESG agree to send this out for External Review at the= next
IESG meeting (2020-02-06). So if you have any comments and proposal for cha= nges
now is a good time.

Below is a copy of the current draft in the datatracker:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-qui= c/

Diff:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?ur= l1=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharter-ietf-quic%2Fwithmil= estones-01.txt&url2=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fdatatracker.ietf.org%2Fdoc%2Fcharte= r-ietf-quic%2Fwithmilestones-01-00.txt

QUIC WG Draft Charter (01-00)

The QUIC working group will provide standards-track specifications for a UDP-
based, stream-multiplexing, encrypted transport protocol, based on
pre-
standardization implementation and deployment experience.

Key goals for QUIC are:

- Minimizing connection establishment and overall transport latency for
applications, starting with HTTP/2; - Providing multiplexing without
head-of-line blocking; - Requiring only changes to path endpoints to enable=
deployment; - Enabling multipath and forward error correction extensions; a= nd -
Providing always-secure transport, using TLS 1.3 by default.

The work of the group will have five main focus areas, corresponding to fiv= e
core deliverables.

The first of these is the core transport work, which will describe the wire=
format, along with the mechanisms for connection establishment, stream
multiplexing, data reliability, loss detection and recovery, congestion
control, and options negotiation. Work on congestion control will describe = use
of a standardized congestion controller as a default scheme for QUIC. Defin= ing
new congestion control schemes is explicitly out of scope for this group. Q= UIC
is expected to support rapid, distributed development and testing of featur= es.

The second of these focus areas is security. This work will describe how th= e
protocol uses TLS 1.3 for key negotiation and will also describe how those = keys
are used to provide confidentiality and integrity protection of both
application data and QUIC headers. This work will ensure that QUIC has secu= rity
and privacy properties that are at least as good as a stack composed of TLS= 1.3
using TCP (or MPTCP when using multipath).

The third focus area will describe mappings between specific application protocols and the transport facilities of QUIC. The first mapping will be a=
description of HTTP/2 semantics using QUIC, specifically with the goal of minimizing web latency using QUIC. This mapping will accommodate the extens= ion
mechanisms defined in the HTTP/2 specification. Upon completion of that
mapping, additional protocols may be added by updating this charter to incl= ude
them, or working elsewhere.

The fourth focus area will be on extensions to core protocol facilities, to=
enable datagram delivery, version negotiation, and multipath capabilities.<= br> Other extensions are out of the scope of this charter.

The fifth focus area will provide an Applicability and Manageability Statem= ent,
describing how, and under what circumstances, QUIC may be safely used, and<= br> describing deployment and manageability implications of the protocol.

When Mark was talking about QUIC futures in = TSVAREA at IETF 106, I asked about this focus area.

Mirja and Brian have faithfully kept this work going from the early days = of the working group (timeline is at https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draf= t-ietf-quic-manageability/), but it's not moving very fast (https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-quic-manageability-06= .txt=C2=A0is a six-month diff), and I noted that MOPS had a QUIC troubl= eshooting discussion at IETF 106 (in their first meeting after being charte= red) (https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/106/ma= terials/slides-106-mops-quic-and-streaming-00).

I pointed out that this work was in QUIC because there was no other place= to put it when QUIC was chartered, but now that MOPS was chartered, and se= ems to have such topics in scope, there was an opportunity to move it into = MOPS and let the operator types chew on it. (My experience as "Spin Bi= t AD" was that operators do show up in QUIC when management topics are= on the agenda, but I don't think they've engaged much on this draf= t).=C2=A0

Actual minutes from TSVAREA 106:=C2=A0
Spencer: Oper=
ations/mgmt draft isn't on the list. Huh?

mnot: Yes, they're important, but not getting enough attention right no=
w.

Mirja: Those are WG items.

Spencer: We had QUIC ops/mgmt considerations in the QUIC working group char=
ter=20
because there was nowhere else to put it. Now that Media Operations (MOPS) =
has=20
been chartered, they're already talking about measuring troubleshooting=
 QUIC from=20
an operator perspective in their first working group session. Maybe this do=
cument=20
should go into MOPS?
I understood Mark to say "interes= ting idea, we'll think about it".=C2=A0

I= s that still on the table someplace?

Best,

Spencer=C2=A0

Additionally, the Working Group will delivery a mechanism to assist load balancers in their handling of QUIC.

Current practices for network management of transport protocols include the=
ability to apply access control lists (ACLs), hashing of flows for equal-co= st
multipath routing (ECMP), directional signaling of flows, signaling of flow=
setup and teardown, and the ability to export information about flows for accounting purposes. The QUIC protocol need not be defined to enable each o= f
these abilities, or enable them in the same way as they are enabled by TCP = when
used with TLS 1.3, but the working group must consider the impact of the protocol on network management practices, reflecting the tensions described= in
RFC 7258.

Note that consensus is required both for changes to the current protocol mechanisms and retention of current mechanisms. In particular, because
something is in the initial document set does not imply that there is conse= nsus
around the feature or around how it is specified.

The QUIC working group will work closely with the HTTPbis working group, especially on the QUIC mapping for HTTP/2.

--
Cheers

Magnus Westerlund


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Networks, Ericsson Research
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| = Phone=C2=A0 +46 10 7148287
Torshamnsgatan 23=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Mobile +46 73 0= 949079
SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------

--0000000000001673a0059d61ffe4-- From nobody Thu Jan 30 14:23:58 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C293D120048 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 2020 14:23:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uV6c8XMS5vrP for ; Thu, 30 Jan 2020 14:23:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lj1-x233.google.com (mail-lj1-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 35056120026 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 2020 14:23:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-lj1-x233.google.com with SMTP id q8so5073893ljj.11 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 2020 14:23:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=TsWwEea+vE6So/Li/9/EHDT9i1kSChjPiKjZe7aIY14=; b=YO3mcNkhDWiICufrkYcajmjGKfUTq1oQ4/Z9Eu2UyRjfTjSnhDrJvIffP4+91oiq+i k9OlRwpfGJR2McG63sFQCBl/Nl/tcgxL55PsLHuuCuC5Nj+mmXejCa3afgVIyrctpZUl 8vNUdi6JAKa7NPtNjoDQtrdOu/pXIavLoa+yp6/75QV4Jy2LW672nG8/IFLpCb7p15Jl EevxzXM5PWZxeG48yre5cRMvjbNc2B9J+6GHhfVuFfgQTrOrHglaUIytjqih8ogSZvJh oDeA0FU1i8f+KpFVzIE9oapAxgKGXr5bhf3JeKZukZ8suNy7PeYPX6KkIyIhHXS8Rex3 1CHw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=TsWwEea+vE6So/Li/9/EHDT9i1kSChjPiKjZe7aIY14=; b=Y+QjxFKO+inuN4NHAqgYOVnXfKfs4JpHoHCT5xdVRDxnvbR7dgFPSMroxJ/ruCUN/J wFeUmYnzuvkL8zo8oGeWRW9B07fh8YC3Pe6NjMP2KyJ70ygpq9B9NwR61Osk6J6wL5oi Bl1DTLdLPP27F1J3p6wmg6cvVNpaNkUGTZn5xSkTTqDwOo95uCuT6fzifI2Xk+nDU15j EaDP5pYzfeWzePU+YgNdk9JY/hkg3fFDKWeiuw61Qg4Qs13bj7BZGT3z+s0PAQl9wPLa KmCUskXq4xtoC8hN8/IEhDdV1RPZYh8G9zcp5+xcGwCJI9SYs5DrV/Zwc4IIXpnxJlMM AjQg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUN27+qXDJZDcWUJbkh7Zntaar+/+OllEo+10g1hKSwK7WLqWXw Q+8qEqCoIJesD6CXsPf79N9/HaiW5/4zUcqbfQ8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqybZRBtIbgk/v8NyE+PLdW2Buuf+u+zzsk1cSGNEy9h+NVhS/THagAK8jvp3JfsJTnK7tjj3PiwUd8RdSL2gF8= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:3609:: with SMTP id d9mr4234325lja.188.1580423033419; Thu, 30 Jan 2020 14:23:53 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3d2e70c1f581579a97124c31b096f0bda8b053b5.camel@ericsson.com> <269e8e73b792523247587725709c3e1fde7d0645.camel@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: From: Jana Iyengar Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 14:23:42 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Proposed Charter Text To: Mirja Kuehlewind Cc: Magnus Westerlund , "mbishop@evequefou.be" , "ianswett@google.com" , "quic@ietf.org" , "fenix@fb.com" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000807a68059d62e9fd" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 22:23:57 -0000 --000000000000807a68059d62e9fd Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > I'm not sure if solution is much better than mechanism. I believe what we > agreed to is to provide guidance. Maybe we can just write that in the > charter: > > Additionally, the Working Group will provide guidance to support load > balancers in handling of QUIC traffic. > Sounds good to me. --000000000000807a68059d62e9fd Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm not sure if solution is much better than mechani= sm. I believe what we agreed to is to provide guidance. Maybe we can just w= rite that in the charter:

=C2=A0Additionally, the Working Group will provide guidance to support load= balancers in handling of QUIC traffic.

Sounds good to me.=C2=A0
--000000000000807a68059d62e9fd-- From nobody Thu Jan 30 18:42:25 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FC98120114 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 2020 18:42:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -17.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-17.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0DV78u6zt9l4 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 2020 18:42:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr1-x434.google.com (mail-wr1-x434.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::434]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0AC85120019 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 2020 18:42:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr1-x434.google.com with SMTP id c9so6740265wrw.8 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 2020 18:42:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=0QdkU/xt5SSqVUPk84rYQGoQHJtF/Izi9LBsaKO9ZF0=; b=iF+KC6BdIGUY44nuavUjYw/aI3iZOsACaTEeTWpRDnHsw6XMThw3lBAjK9DZ+Y3or2 Y0h1yAe3H9oRSc7HaztWdJv5owRAKn/RM+xVGLfSZ0f7YF2nml9qPPN2dg7x91UuC+vN xu6oGjeNIB8Bv6hzmox+1cpXG8My03D2nk94b2fGmqJQze0OVaN3VgMzTzoRNfRPbga5 zPHfKfP6YHH3LFTYzozbala8jPjb2JfLM7ZTM4SQTbEBsHdgrE0CGXGHNFSL99vgSgmU rCUc2QLqoCQ+ACbmtoQwmlkT1S4CA7IcfZYsMg8F4h79oNYEnnAsbvImf2wV8BZfTXoV 1oKw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=0QdkU/xt5SSqVUPk84rYQGoQHJtF/Izi9LBsaKO9ZF0=; b=Slyn0+/aR7d0VpZd6NTHpf8cUkXnsD4e39T2kkP8wXxSwkrSdXSjAoxvQ6zNyG7nqV TVH+pZQ8jeHPMMLJ0mp6OkShLY6JpRFr/zVCdOrjhWyjFjZC72ti2PG04mzdKxAxgPuU bSlSpV+H9T23iBrLywjIKEh5zCROfNCDVDFEKLyVZgQ5Gjh8TNMhxp8JGcty9Gtn7TZJ 3igesO642GGaqaggKmfovr1JGAmbGYnCdR1Dwtg+7qJJOu/+NovJQFRdmpUXPgOsUhFw 3FCSOPXY9hFyTe53ZTkVMey1CbuNIImCVeF7bm+WJRVzz6G3gAJtN03jed/Fifwis4gV ErWg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXXcpP47leyvVMU+T+YzVM3KiaJ2x+hDypODsrc7yhHZpbKwYQF UmFy+f6XhKJeDakyTymOMtY5cjy7lYhRgf9TBkq6Fw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyHvGPvneu7+3LnGuBzDesM0+emhOXeQRG+x5uIOfco2zKhdlnwa2e003RIgKdT2gZ14iYAG0ZvJN7FkG+k3rE= X-Received: by 2002:adf:e984:: with SMTP id h4mr9038034wrm.275.1580438540182; Thu, 30 Jan 2020 18:42:20 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200127135053.GB19655@ubuntu-dmitri> <20200127184007.GC19655@ubuntu-dmitri> <20200129204642.GB18661@ubuntu-dmitri> <59420244-634e-5194-0aab-685f0522bd15@huitema.net> <20200130144503.GC20300@ubuntu-dmitri> In-Reply-To: From: Ian Swett Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2020 21:42:07 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Proposed extension for delayed acknowledgments To: Lucas Pardue Cc: David Schinazi , Christian Huitema , Jana Iyengar , Matt Joras , Mike Bishop , Ian Swett , QUIC WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c75d99059d668586" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 02:42:24 -0000 --000000000000c75d99059d668586 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Thanks for adding the page(and the ack-frequency codepoints). Is there a trick for getting there from the main Wiki page, or do I just need to save the URL? https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/wiki On Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 9:48 AM Lucas Pardue wrote: > Agreed, thanks for taking the initiative and making that page David. > > > On Thu, 30 Jan 2020, 14:45 Dmitri Tikhonov, > wrote: > >> Thanks, David! >> >> I added loss-bits and delayed-acked extensions to the registry. >> >> - Dmitri. >> >> On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 05:33:16PM -0800, David Schinazi wrote: >> > To facilitate experimentation and to avoid collisions, I've created a >> > temporary registry on our wiki: >> > >> > https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/wiki/Temporary-IANA-Registry >> > >> > I'd encourage draft writers to avoid TBD and instead pick a random value >> > and add it to the wiki. >> > >> > Hope this helps, >> > David >> > >> > On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 4:13 PM Christian Huitema >> > wrote: >> > >> > > >> > > On 1/29/2020 1:34 PM, Ian Swett wrote: >> > > >> > > Good point Dmitri, PR( >> https://github.com/janaiyengar/ack-frequency/pull/21) >> > > created. >> > > >> > > I didn't define a codepoint for the reordering field, because I >> believe it >> > > needs more discussion and isn't critical for initial interop. >> > > >> > > On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 3:46 PM Dmitri Tikhonov < >> > > dtikhonov@litespeedtech.com> wrote: >> > > >> > >> On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 03:46:16PM -0800, Jana Iyengar wrote: >> > >> > Thanks for proposing the TP: I'll update the draft to use it, >> knowing >> > >> that >> > >> > we're squatting on it. >> > >> >> > >> And 0xAF (obvious reasons) for the ACK-FREQUENCY frame? >> > >> >> > > >> > > Cool. Good way to test encoding of frame type on two bytes! >> > > >> > > -- Christian Huitema >> > > >> > --000000000000c75d99059d668586 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for adding the page(and the ack-frequency codepoint= s).=C2=A0 Is there a trick for getting there from the main Wiki page, or do= I just need to save the URL?
On Th= u, Jan 30, 2020 at 9:48 AM Lucas Pardue <lucaspardue.24.7@gmail.com> wrote:
Agreed, thanks f= or taking the initiative and making that page David.

<= /div>

On Thu, 30 Jan 2020, 14:45 Dmitri Tikhonov, <dtikhonov@litespeedtech.com&= gt; wrote:
Thank= s, David!

I added loss-bits and delayed-acked extensions to the registry.

=C2=A0 - Dmitri.

On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 05:33:16PM -0800, David Schinazi wrote:
> To facilitate experimentation and to avoid collisions, I've create= d a
> temporary registry on our wiki:
>
> https://github.com= /quicwg/base-drafts/wiki/Temporary-IANA-Registry
>
> I'd encourage draft writers to avoid TBD and instead pick a random= value
> and add it to the wiki.
>
> Hope this helps,
> David
>
> On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 4:13 PM Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema= .net>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > On 1/29/2020 1:34 PM, Ian Swett wrote:
> >
> > Good point Dmitri, PR(https= ://github.com/janaiyengar/ack-frequency/pull/21)
> > created.
> >
> > I didn't define a codepoint for the reordering field, because= I believe it
> > needs more discussion and isn't critical for initial interop.=
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 3:46 PM Dmitri Tikhonov <
> > dtikhonov@litespeedtech.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 03:46:16PM -0800, Jana Iyengar wrote:=
> >> > Thanks for proposing the TP: I'll update the draft t= o use it, knowing
> >> that
> >> > we're squatting on it.
> >>
> >> And 0xAF (obvious reasons) for the ACK-FREQUENCY frame?
> >>
> >
> > Cool. Good way to test encoding of frame type on two bytes!
> >
> > -- Christian Huitema
> >
--000000000000c75d99059d668586-- From nobody Thu Jan 30 20:35:05 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D98CE120168 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 2020 20:35:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.747 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.747 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Xo6rdD7w8Omz for ; Thu, 30 Jan 2020 20:35:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ua1-x930.google.com (mail-ua1-x930.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::930]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E0236120255 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 2020 20:35:01 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ua1-x930.google.com with SMTP id c7so2091692uaf.5 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 2020 20:35:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=5Yyny9MD+7OACHBAQW2wO9JMBNkeJZ/7bhd/A60wFwg=; b=iauf5s03N88ZFHL4KzgreQ+TNAOSiET5fTGcSU+7lajaqvcWHGwTUcLhxG14O3nd2v VewB35bB49pSgG0EKowQm3K9fdrwcrch7EYJX2zmmfdolTXqp7Mozl8/vRk5i8vfJKYm 08l5IEanmGSw68eplg01hIiGSzF0Yq+doh4MGY+9zTIqkCWURSpUQlFcauQ/J6lzRuEi KZGc5coxlHSjWflgXs4h6fLFaErf83KVYHBS1op8QVKeu7t+cX965kCcQOZ4ol9HMDxx EDTVgUqTb1lxjFhkDrB7YKdYOzIXbpHlpB3kGT5SZVSNCbh79Cy2ec5Av2XphHBaPNQb YeqA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=5Yyny9MD+7OACHBAQW2wO9JMBNkeJZ/7bhd/A60wFwg=; b=SotvZbaieyfx2vFwnT6m7azJZxTVmZZL6AhCqaWsKhUKU5tiTiIO/+6h2aFNY6/Bxj gxnzlIAwUvQj4aTMtAxHk5USh8nrNGcMnkks2HDHCk09euDVpykmIL1Jg6wIdVrhZQAF /t4318NH9QT+tz3n24HlgdQFdqeWNqNRWBI7sB3FGWuB7nPWADvPxOIHLDZj2yiIhJw9 nziAcr7P7zy3tXAcTytAGhaaL3xcFYHbqaa44m7ynh5W1JootG+ZndkzpfwlbUMFo/RY rNSnIor4woEQylhigqoFRizZeZNXxgzsMgfGyVIpjBxI+5nt3XfYOgaNLJflELGuMK1Z kdVw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAW43gFeyirws/ficCiCVTGwt+EgqSqJvcCUvUKz36yRvexrQeSn l2Sw8mbmd8zvXmwcbBEGr6hIxxXf3KOZR7P2ijE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyPFjLgP/hxHJ4JiGd+16C/BZ7HxMQqd+YGKeOlYyTPt47YeDzLfOiGAwly9Bhk0CZ9SzDOW1J4fDr0THePc2A= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:69c9:: with SMTP id u9mr4958263uaq.80.1580445300891; Thu, 30 Jan 2020 20:35:00 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200127135053.GB19655@ubuntu-dmitri> <20200127184007.GC19655@ubuntu-dmitri> <20200129204642.GB18661@ubuntu-dmitri> <59420244-634e-5194-0aab-685f0522bd15@huitema.net> <20200130144503.GC20300@ubuntu-dmitri> In-Reply-To: From: Lucas Pardue Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 04:34:53 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Proposed extension for delayed acknowledgments To: Ian Swett Cc: David Schinazi , Christian Huitema , Jana Iyengar , Matt Joras , Mike Bishop , Ian Swett , QUIC WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000bf2850059d681897" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 04:35:04 -0000 --000000000000bf2850059d681897 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I've just added it as a link in the "Top Pages" section on the main wiki page. Githubs poor UI still doesn't help, we could reflect those link into the main wiki page text too. On Fri, 31 Jan 2020, 02:42 Ian Swett, wrote: > Thanks for adding the page(and the ack-frequency codepoints). Is there a > trick for getting there from the main Wiki page, or do I just need to save > the URL? > https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/wiki > > On Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 9:48 AM Lucas Pardue > wrote: > >> Agreed, thanks for taking the initiative and making that page David. >> >> >> On Thu, 30 Jan 2020, 14:45 Dmitri Tikhonov, >> wrote: >> >>> Thanks, David! >>> >>> I added loss-bits and delayed-acked extensions to the registry. >>> >>> - Dmitri. >>> >>> On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 05:33:16PM -0800, David Schinazi wrote: >>> > To facilitate experimentation and to avoid collisions, I've created a >>> > temporary registry on our wiki: >>> > >>> > https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/wiki/Temporary-IANA-Registry >>> > >>> > I'd encourage draft writers to avoid TBD and instead pick a random >>> value >>> > and add it to the wiki. >>> > >>> > Hope this helps, >>> > David >>> > >>> > On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 4:13 PM Christian Huitema >> > >>> > wrote: >>> > >>> > > >>> > > On 1/29/2020 1:34 PM, Ian Swett wrote: >>> > > >>> > > Good point Dmitri, PR( >>> https://github.com/janaiyengar/ack-frequency/pull/21) >>> > > created. >>> > > >>> > > I didn't define a codepoint for the reordering field, because I >>> believe it >>> > > needs more discussion and isn't critical for initial interop. >>> > > >>> > > On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 3:46 PM Dmitri Tikhonov < >>> > > dtikhonov@litespeedtech.com> wrote: >>> > > >>> > >> On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 03:46:16PM -0800, Jana Iyengar wrote: >>> > >> > Thanks for proposing the TP: I'll update the draft to use it, >>> knowing >>> > >> that >>> > >> > we're squatting on it. >>> > >> >>> > >> And 0xAF (obvious reasons) for the ACK-FREQUENCY frame? >>> > >> >>> > > >>> > > Cool. Good way to test encoding of frame type on two bytes! >>> > > >>> > > -- Christian Huitema >>> > > >>> >> --000000000000bf2850059d681897 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I've just added it as a link in the "Top Pages&q= uot; section on the main wiki page.

Githubs poor UI still doesn't help, we could reflect those link i= nto the main wiki page text too.=C2=A0

On Fri, 31 Jan 2020, 02:42 Ian = Swett, <ianswett@google.com> wrote:
Thanks for adding the page(and the = ack-frequency codepoints).=C2=A0 Is there a trick for getting there from th= e main Wiki page, or do I just need to save the URL?
On Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 9:48 AM Lucas Pardue <lucaspardue.24.7@gmail.com> wrote:
Agreed, thanks for takin= g the initiative and making that page David.


On = Thu, 30 Jan 2020, 14:45 Dmitri Tikhonov, <dtikhonov@litespeedtech.com> wrote:
Thanks, David!

I added loss-bits and delayed-acked extensions to the registry.

=C2=A0 - Dmitri.

On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 05:33:16PM -0800, David Schinazi wrote:
> To facilitate experimentation and to avoid collisions, I've create= d a
> temporary registry on our wiki:
>
> https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/wiki/Temporary-IANA-Re= gistry
>
> I'd encourage draft writers to avoid TBD and instead pick a random= value
> and add it to the wiki.
>
> Hope this helps,
> David
>
> On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 4:13 PM Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > On 1/29/2020 1:34 PM, Ian Swett wrote:
> >
> > Good point Dmitri, PR(https://github.com/janaiyengar/ack-frequency/pu= ll/21)
> > created.
> >
> > I didn't define a codepoint for the reordering field, because= I believe it
> > needs more discussion and isn't critical for initial interop.=
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 3:46 PM Dmitri Tikhonov <
> > dtikhonov@litespeedtech= .com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 03:46:16PM -0800, Jana Iyengar wrote:=
> >> > Thanks for proposing the TP: I'll update the draft t= o use it, knowing
> >> that
> >> > we're squatting on it.
> >>
> >> And 0xAF (obvious reasons) for the ACK-FREQUENCY frame?
> >>
> >
> > Cool. Good way to test encoding of frame type on two bytes!
> >
> > -- Christian Huitema
> >
--000000000000bf2850059d681897-- From nobody Fri Jan 31 06:13:39 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A1C31200F9 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 06:13:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -17.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-17.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aWzo-fTeE5YL for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 06:13:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr1-x436.google.com (mail-wr1-x436.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::436]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4695E12008D for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 06:13:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr1-x436.google.com with SMTP id y11so8767088wrt.6 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 06:13:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ap/etc2XdJ0vA+EaZWD+lX4lX0DmnEqMt7zwyJEJZ8w=; b=r7369sYQDeuKIwiKw2XnX1u8mB5h/TFkqUmacfh5fi7o//HGe+h6dWs5qRzGyi2yfD NArItD+j1y+4R9dn85VXS7SFz23mUGCU9bYVFvGvQPj/62ekeEJUXODJ3uNZwe4bTfaY geeLL34VTZjuCYOrvTAFMPLFK1NZ4AFRGmUw4y+9J5PySNPpa2Jkj6x+umLXJU27lnji 4kgOWf9/RGG6yts6ul60XJsdamv5thRwuWMt7Sm8A374IwtyBWPsTvNOYXw4SGQYL1U3 qanbFbP1C91+hB9o97hJO6T9lTV+IQEp0FKTzvg2JKtRutDPe5OUpsQ8Zz2i8SJ1GD1C aJfw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ap/etc2XdJ0vA+EaZWD+lX4lX0DmnEqMt7zwyJEJZ8w=; b=XNk5JmEuhaXYTc8vTt7gbgWoptJFu1Dt5+uOuf7GAdk92ceIf0bUHxja77khAuXJYr k2A8dGDazEy3vh/aVf6WqpzzSShPI7u7Jv7GVf/smLqrn4Z3cDcSJj29tAj7vMwrcUgO v3SPiK6sEzuyVvxFLL+8ENrb5ka6cbNQmdcCIVej/6qFtOhOpToUPw/nvHa1KBzCYSkt LqERjwivJL53szz/BqD249xdZG4V96Av6vyGSGVw2ZIdXvfoYSuwx9W+SaZ1UOXQ1BIW sPaIz5ebBUsKpjdhZTY6rPeBWwugYmc6+qxo3jXW6Dn9xv0SSFWRVNy4/qaQLXfhVcUF Zi1w== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXwGfvORn4oI9bXr/xIhjxDTArLm+AfJazPy24ggFv2HC9rVrpY BvAa/NGpvzQVdiWRkjv4Q16f9/8IvHJhXNX1hvBrhQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyyIn6XT9f4gCI2aVwsYPSNBiQ1nDPg4WNmZf24cInj/WMJ6JxOWjasJsAyeOISP/3+X/AZlC6D2NdRsBPW/lA= X-Received: by 2002:adf:f80b:: with SMTP id s11mr13036820wrp.12.1580480014431; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 06:13:34 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200127135053.GB19655@ubuntu-dmitri> <20200127184007.GC19655@ubuntu-dmitri> <20200129204642.GB18661@ubuntu-dmitri> <59420244-634e-5194-0aab-685f0522bd15@huitema.net> <20200130144503.GC20300@ubuntu-dmitri> In-Reply-To: From: Ian Swett Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 09:13:20 -0500 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Proposed extension for delayed acknowledgments To: Lucas Pardue Cc: David Schinazi , Christian Huitema , Jana Iyengar , Matt Joras , Mike Bishop , Ian Swett , QUIC WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d62484059d702dff" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 14:13:38 -0000 --000000000000d62484059d702dff Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Thanks Lucas! On Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 11:35 PM Lucas Pardue wrote: > I've just added it as a link in the "Top Pages" section on the main wiki > page. > > Githubs poor UI still doesn't help, we could reflect those link into the > main wiki page text too. > > On Fri, 31 Jan 2020, 02:42 Ian Swett, wrote: > >> Thanks for adding the page(and the ack-frequency codepoints). Is there a >> trick for getting there from the main Wiki page, or do I just need to save >> the URL? >> https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/wiki >> >> On Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 9:48 AM Lucas Pardue >> wrote: >> >>> Agreed, thanks for taking the initiative and making that page David. >>> >>> >>> On Thu, 30 Jan 2020, 14:45 Dmitri Tikhonov, >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Thanks, David! >>>> >>>> I added loss-bits and delayed-acked extensions to the registry. >>>> >>>> - Dmitri. >>>> >>>> On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 05:33:16PM -0800, David Schinazi wrote: >>>> > To facilitate experimentation and to avoid collisions, I've created a >>>> > temporary registry on our wiki: >>>> > >>>> > https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/wiki/Temporary-IANA-Registry >>>> > >>>> > I'd encourage draft writers to avoid TBD and instead pick a random >>>> value >>>> > and add it to the wiki. >>>> > >>>> > Hope this helps, >>>> > David >>>> > >>>> > On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 4:13 PM Christian Huitema < >>>> huitema@huitema.net> >>>> > wrote: >>>> > >>>> > > >>>> > > On 1/29/2020 1:34 PM, Ian Swett wrote: >>>> > > >>>> > > Good point Dmitri, PR( >>>> https://github.com/janaiyengar/ack-frequency/pull/21) >>>> > > created. >>>> > > >>>> > > I didn't define a codepoint for the reordering field, because I >>>> believe it >>>> > > needs more discussion and isn't critical for initial interop. >>>> > > >>>> > > On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 3:46 PM Dmitri Tikhonov < >>>> > > dtikhonov@litespeedtech.com> wrote: >>>> > > >>>> > >> On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 03:46:16PM -0800, Jana Iyengar wrote: >>>> > >> > Thanks for proposing the TP: I'll update the draft to use it, >>>> knowing >>>> > >> that >>>> > >> > we're squatting on it. >>>> > >> >>>> > >> And 0xAF (obvious reasons) for the ACK-FREQUENCY frame? >>>> > >> >>>> > > >>>> > > Cool. Good way to test encoding of frame type on two bytes! >>>> > > >>>> > > -- Christian Huitema >>>> > > >>>> >>> --000000000000d62484059d702dff Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks=C2=A0Lucas!

On Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 11:35 PM Lucas P= ardue <lucaspardue.24.7@gm= ail.com> wrote:
I've just added it as a link in the "Top = Pages" section on the main wiki page.

Githubs poor UI still doesn't help, we could reflect those= link into the main wiki page text too.=C2=A0

On Fri, 31 Jan 2020, 02:= 42 Ian Swett, <ianswett@google.com> wrote:
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-l= eft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
Thanks fo= r adding the page(and the ack-frequency codepoints).=C2=A0 Is there a trick= for getting there from the main Wiki page, or do I just need to save the U= RL?

On Thu, Jan 30, 2020 at 9:48 AM Lucas Pardue = <lucaspardue.24.7@gmail.com> wrote:=
Agreed, thanks for taking the initiative and making that page David.

On Thu, 30 Jan 2020, 14:45 Dmitri Tikhonov, <dtikhonov@litespeedtech.com> wrote:
<= /div>
Thanks, David!

I added loss-bits and delayed-acked extensions to the registry.

=C2=A0 - Dmitri.

On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 05:33:16PM -0800, David Schinazi wrote:
> To facilitate experimentation and to avoid collisions, I've create= d a
> temporary registry on our wiki:
>
> https://github.com/quicwg/base-drafts/wiki/Temporary-IANA-Re= gistry
>
> I'd encourage draft writers to avoid TBD and instead pick a random= value
> and add it to the wiki.
>
> Hope this helps,
> David
>
> On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 4:13 PM Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > On 1/29/2020 1:34 PM, Ian Swett wrote:
> >
> > Good point Dmitri, PR(https://github.com/janaiyengar/ack-frequency/pu= ll/21)
> > created.
> >
> > I didn't define a codepoint for the reordering field, because= I believe it
> > needs more discussion and isn't critical for initial interop.=
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 29, 2020 at 3:46 PM Dmitri Tikhonov <
> > dtikhonov@litespeedtech= .com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 03:46:16PM -0800, Jana Iyengar wrote:=
> >> > Thanks for proposing the TP: I'll update the draft t= o use it, knowing
> >> that
> >> > we're squatting on it.
> >>
> >> And 0xAF (obvious reasons) for the ACK-FREQUENCY frame?
> >>
> >
> > Cool. Good way to test encoding of frame type on two bytes!
> >
> > -- Christian Huitema
> >
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charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Spencer, See below, On Thu, 2020-01-30 at 15:17 -0600, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote: > Hi, Magnus,=20 >=20 > I have one question.=20 >=20 > On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 6:22 AM Magnus Westerlund < > magnus.westerlund=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > WG, > >=20 [SNIP] > > The fifth focus area will provide an Applicability and Manageability > > Statement, > > describing how, and under what circumstances, QUIC may be safely used, = and > > describing deployment and manageability implications of the protocol. >=20 > When Mark was talking about QUIC futures in TSVAREA at IETF 106, I asked = about > this focus area. >=20 > Mirja and Brian have faithfully kept this work going from the early days = of > the working group (timeline is at=20 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-quic-manageability/), but it'= s not > moving very fast ( > https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-quic-manageability-06..t= xt is a > six-month diff), and I noted that MOPS had a QUIC troubleshooting discuss= ion > at IETF 106 (in their first meeting after being chartered) ( > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/106/materials/slides-106-mops-quic-a= nd-streaming-00 > ). >=20 > I pointed out that this work was in QUIC because there was no other place= to > put it when QUIC was chartered, but now that MOPS was chartered, and seem= s to > have such topics in scope, there was an opportunity to move it into MOPS = and > let the operator types chew on it. (My experience as "Spin Bit AD" was th= at > operators do show up in QUIC when management topics are on the agenda, bu= t I > don't think they've engaged much on this draft).=20 >=20 > Actual minutes from TSVAREA 106:=20 > Spencer: Operations/mgmt draft isn't on the list. Huh? >=20 > mnot: Yes, they're important, but not getting enough attention right now. >=20 > Mirja: Those are WG items. >=20 > Spencer: We had QUIC ops/mgmt considerations in the QUIC working group > charter=20 > because there was nowhere else to put it. Now that Media Operations (MOPS= ) > has=20 > been chartered, they're already talking about measuring troubleshooting Q= UIC > from=20 > an operator perspective in their first working group session. Maybe this > document=20 > should go into MOPS? > I understood Mark to say "interesting idea, we'll think about it".=20 >=20 > Is that still on the table someplace? So I think this do require more thought and can be considered for the next recharter that will be more substantial. However, from my perspective I wou= ld be careful to move to much of the management parts out the QUIC WG. The protoc= ol defining part do need to consider its impact on managing the protocol. That can't simply be ignored. However, if there are certain aspects of the manag= ement and operational part that make sense to move then I think that is a reasona= ble option.=20 =20 Cheers Magnus Westerlund=20 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Networks, Ericsson Research ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Torshamnsgatan 23 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --=-GslP0/w72YXvoAqL8id3 Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADCABgkqhkiG9w0BBwEAAKCCEtww ggYHMIID76ADAgECAhALRm3NcHtuMGWutmt5cXntMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBCwUAMEcxCzAJBgNVBAYT AlNFMREwDwYDVQQKDAhFcmljc3NvbjElMCMGA1UEAwwcRXJpY3Nzb24gTkwgSW5kaXZpZHVhbCBD 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+0000 From: Magnus Westerlund To: "jri.ietf@gmail.com" , Mirja Kuehlewind CC: "fenix@fb.com" , "mbishop@evequefou.be" , "ianswett@google.com" , "quic@ietf.org" Subject: Re: Proposed Charter Text Thread-Topic: Proposed Charter Text Thread-Index: AQHV1QxjvPDTcWegp0eJWJe1gsp2N6f6YuYAgAQt/wCAACJd4P//zegAgACGTeCAADI6gIACdxsAgAFB+ACAABI8AIAAyMIAgAEilQA= Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 15:43:45 +0000 Message-ID: References: <3d2e70c1f581579a97124c31b096f0bda8b053b5.camel@ericsson.com> <269e8e73b792523247587725709c3e1fde7d0645.camel@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: sv-SE, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com; x-originating-ip: [192.176.1.84] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: fae0722e-89ac-4a32-b047-08d7a6645b55 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: DB7PR07MB4107:|DB7PR07MB4107: x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True 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U5m5o3RoDj/n8WPyJNpaR077RhGUkG3YbeFTTWWzzblzBFyu3Y4HFqckLdoZtrZyA17ESUd4w5g3d0MUFbPojWQgMi8qycJr1HoYJtlx3qJl5x7vQiTSDYHYuYxNkUBQWPSGQMBD+WN/Y9Dbvc07sO134yhD/n8jN3eYl+vVED88JpziySSFdzcE5evkorfE+BOCchHNlnIHMoyBW3SC9/vMmeaw2SIh7vYfLAx4qnWbaOyedxys/gX0rIEVDl7iY/0bnXH8iHeR2g9fXsveRFrdxEWttX6hKs+k0X3DbRXmEtummkuXYQVbMZtc5N1gwTlBMRLQ5TyKGvyq210U08+IPTAN7NLx7YRz0uk57DEQ4EOcLXnBUKYfslkhZFP2AoD2Rmi3R1ROd4RRw8TCPlPNmUHv+K9SVjvSpmr+e7hgk40ECQYH4ZaQn3sGcFZb x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: lzOBxRJDC5xdWADoc+qD2dXkV09PXqKz7n6seufqn5QS5Msfa10MMgEbTgsYexsyTjMWQMYy/WNdu9bCtZ6HttN0Lc6d2/mPGEOtKlAyYYklzO+LHA9OXRE35GBhbq7DB8iEslj9l6kNZBjva3inrA== Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg="sha-256"; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; boundary="=-1A0FLyl2FElzPmjHviuZ" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: ericsson.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: fae0722e-89ac-4a32-b047-08d7a6645b55 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 31 Jan 2020 15:43:45.4078 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 92e84ceb-fbfd-47ab-be52-080c6b87953f X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 4r8mvyoxTceIGfqCoUYeQoYBKsMyQZbaffOmZYErJ0Vuk7RXerJ5DZDDN2B8Qpq01ZHVXTKJy7GCG2HeFKFLrLDzLhd1kaOFeN8uV8Lgt1M= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB7PR07MB4107 Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 15:43:51 -0000 --=-1A0FLyl2FElzPmjHviuZ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 2020-01-30 at 14:23 -0800, Jana Iyengar wrote: > > I'm not sure if solution is much better than mechanism. I believe what = we > > agreed to is to provide guidance. Maybe we can just write that in the > > charter: > >=20 > > Additionally, the Working Group will provide guidance to support load > > balancers in handling of QUIC traffic. > > Sounds good to me.=20 I find the english a bit strange. Wouldn't this be better from an english perspective?=20 Additionally, the Working Group will provide guidance on how to enable load balancers to handle QUIC traffic. This is actually based on that the document proposals scheme defines how endpoints should generate and structure CIDs to enable the load balancers t= o route based on the CID.=20 Any additional feedback on this?=20 Cheers Magnus Westerlund=20 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Networks, Ericsson Research ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 Torshamnsgatan 23 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- --=-1A0FLyl2FElzPmjHviuZ Content-Type: application/x-pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADCABgkqhkiG9w0BBwEAAKCCEtww ggYHMIID76ADAgECAhALRm3NcHtuMGWutmt5cXntMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBCwUAMEcxCzAJBgNVBAYT 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bh=44zL1yKLoyM+pkBTtZi+1JRRC3BA5XRnv9iNKZfXTi0=; b=BtK/CWE4B2CedXXs5LhnS/tXoM0xvVYuDPMGu6kihQQynfxsqtlVJG1xwhsQXdV6de 7SIt7Adv14SYVEz9etzTFqjahsuQ0wABRIqF6AKn6h15htUyv7hEct2NaAa/5LsSKlZS NgX3FA+crNXGYi/a8J/DV0a7ZkX9j0N8TIr+gAkJKZgx6kzfZNmEERHed4m1nyTRvCEA dFpyi2fC4aCir0H6JLyn9oC0yRS5JZmSIhwjMGxrQ8lbp8IbstCcnR4ljV/TSUhvrxhy F1X7lhTH85HiGbsaOuTiAD6vqs4I6ASrDlVcaO1Bv+5fnP9mduXG0VhoWT6/YofD99dh Co1g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=44zL1yKLoyM+pkBTtZi+1JRRC3BA5XRnv9iNKZfXTi0=; b=MWS0tL04zEgdUSUWjgH976eSgzjFw3bjVkq1cMT0ryaZTuG9ZGmVq1A9eZGNwsh6H0 11O9cNnwpIjW4hrS1WxnmW0Db5c2eSBUXZ43+xEkRjVc/N10OfDTF5QhAxyUiUQj6fSw cUHGz+pKUGpRwmYD+n71eNc7Lld3yAtYYBVJNQ2/z310Ffv3QBhPH4Fa1sj+H0DdrmAe Mqv/wC4SX0YBxh4ggClfPNvPdkoO9ctEQ5IqP7XmnBlQWsNdn7XEybbAYG30d52VqR38 2Qs6PdtR5FqC8fXf+TBEKLQA0v2VkZ0WKiPfPP5TGhy1uJ2nYzG8HqFyJ3xqZrZmREUt em1g== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVtFb2kitmflahs5vYRGg3rEaTGOnjVfBzgKq8OFRHe8joQcDsS QGQB0NfRraVnsLd+Dpg1LOGROhNKGdYFP5Q9A/0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxeC5IbMCMQ4oNfmEDWu15ArcVYwFhh8QzLEhVrzSq7kU1jOaOUlLWp8nsMNhtXwlbthKmr0qzWYWwzd0sAAew= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:63c7:: with SMTP id c7mr4505413wrw.158.1580493091766; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 09:51:31 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3d2e70c1f581579a97124c31b096f0bda8b053b5.camel@ericsson.com> <269e8e73b792523247587725709c3e1fde7d0645.camel@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: From: Martin Duke Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 09:51:20 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Proposed Charter Text To: Magnus Westerlund Cc: "jri.ietf@gmail.com" , Mirja Kuehlewind , "ianswett@google.com" , "quic@ietf.org" , "mbishop@evequefou.be" , "fenix@fb.com" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004e065e059d733987" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 17:51:37 -0000 --0000000000004e065e059d733987 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" (speaking as the draft author) In my opinion, the QUIC-LB work is a natural extension of the ops and manageability draft rather than a genuine extension of the WG scope. Nevertheless I have no objection to adding the text to the charter. On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 7:43 AM Magnus Westerlund wrote: > On Thu, 2020-01-30 at 14:23 -0800, Jana Iyengar wrote: > > > I'm not sure if solution is much better than mechanism. I believe what > we > > > agreed to is to provide guidance. Maybe we can just write that in the > > > charter: > > > > > > Additionally, the Working Group will provide guidance to support load > > > balancers in handling of QUIC traffic. > > > > Sounds good to me. > > I find the english a bit strange. Wouldn't this be better from an english > perspective? > > Additionally, the Working Group will provide guidance on how to enable load > balancers to handle QUIC traffic. > > > This is actually based on that the document proposals scheme defines how > endpoints should generate and structure CIDs to enable the load balancers > to > route based on the CID. > > Any additional feedback on this? > > Cheers > > Magnus Westerlund > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Networks, Ericsson Research > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 > Torshamnsgatan 23 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 > SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > --0000000000004e065e059d733987 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
(speaking as the draft author) In my opinion, the QUIC-LB = work is a natural extension of the ops and manageability draft rather than = a genuine extension of the WG scope. Nevertheless I have no objection to ad= ding the text to the charter.

On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 7:43 AM Magnus Wester= lund <magnus.westerlund=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
On Thu, 2020-01-30 at 14:23 -0800, Jana Iy= engar wrote:
> > I'm not sure if solution is much better than mechanism. I bel= ieve what we
> > agreed to is to provide guidance. Maybe we can just write that in= the
> > charter:
> >
> >=C2=A0 Additionally, the Working Group will provide guidance to su= pport load
> > balancers in handling of QUIC traffic.
>
> Sounds good to me.

I find the english a bit strange. Wouldn't this be better from an engli= sh
perspective?

Additionally, the Working Group will provide guidance on how to enable load=
balancers to handle QUIC traffic.


This is actually based on that the document proposals scheme defines how endpoints should generate and structure CIDs to enable the load balancers t= o
route based on the CID.

Any additional feedback on this?

Cheers

Magnus Westerlund


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Networks, Ericsson Research
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| = Phone=C2=A0 +46 10 7148287
Torshamnsgatan 23=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Mobile +46 73 0= 949079
SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------

--0000000000004e065e059d733987-- From nobody Fri Jan 31 11:00:13 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C251F120BA1 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 11:00:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hata-s8PhHMq for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 11:00:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-lf1-x136.google.com (mail-lf1-x136.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 061A1120815 for ; 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Fri, 31 Jan 2020 11:00:06 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <51faec7f9099d7e060157565acc5489543ef09b3.camel@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <51faec7f9099d7e060157565acc5489543ef09b3.camel@ericsson.com> From: Spencer Dawkins at IETF Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 12:59:39 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: Proposed Charter Text To: Magnus Westerlund Cc: "magnus.westerlund=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org" , "quic@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008adfe8059d742e94" Archived-At: X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 19:00:12 -0000 --0000000000008adfe8059d742e94 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi, Magnus, On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 9:35 AM Magnus Westerlund < magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com> wrote: > Hi Spencer, > > See below, > > On Thu, 2020-01-30 at 15:17 -0600, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote: > > Hi, Magnus, > > > > I have one question. > > > > On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 6:22 AM Magnus Westerlund < > > magnus.westerlund=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > > WG, > > > > [SNIP] > > > > The fifth focus area will provide an Applicability and Manageability > > > Statement, > > > describing how, and under what circumstances, QUIC may be safely used, > and > > > describing deployment and manageability implications of the protocol. > > > > When Mark was talking about QUIC futures in TSVAREA at IETF 106, I asked > about > > this focus area. > > > > Mirja and Brian have faithfully kept this work going from the early days > of > > the working group (timeline is at > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-quic-manageability/), but > it's not > > moving very fast ( > > > https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-quic-manageability-06..txt > is a > > six-month diff), and I noted that MOPS had a QUIC troubleshooting > discussion > > at IETF 106 (in their first meeting after being chartered) ( > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/106/materials/slides-106-mops-quic-and-streaming-00 > > ). > > > > I pointed out that this work was in QUIC because there was no other > place to > > put it when QUIC was chartered, but now that MOPS was chartered, and > seems to > > have such topics in scope, there was an opportunity to move it into MOPS > and > > let the operator types chew on it. (My experience as "Spin Bit AD" was > that > > operators do show up in QUIC when management topics are on the agenda, > but I > > don't think they've engaged much on this draft). > > > > Actual minutes from TSVAREA 106: > > Spencer: Operations/mgmt draft isn't on the list. Huh? > > > > mnot: Yes, they're important, but not getting enough attention right now. > > > > Mirja: Those are WG items. > > > > Spencer: We had QUIC ops/mgmt considerations in the QUIC working group > > charter > > because there was nowhere else to put it. Now that Media Operations > (MOPS) > > has > > been chartered, they're already talking about measuring troubleshooting > QUIC > > from > > an operator perspective in their first working group session. Maybe this > > document > > should go into MOPS? > > I understood Mark to say "interesting idea, we'll think about it". > > > > Is that still on the table someplace? > > So I think this do require more thought and can be considered for the next > recharter that will be more substantial. However, from my perspective I > would be > careful to move to much of the management parts out the QUIC WG. The > protocol > defining part do need to consider its impact on managing the protocol. That > can't simply be ignored. However, if there are certain aspects of the > management > and operational part that make sense to move then I think that is a > reasonable > option. > Well, sure. That's why I agreed to add the management and applicability work to the QUIC charter when we approved the working group. :-) I was mostly thinking about ways to move the work forward a bit more quickly, potentially with more operator input. And there may be other ways. And I agree that this requires thought, especially with two ART AD slots, a TSV slot, and one OPS AD slot turning over in March, as of yesterday's Nomcom announcement (only one ART AD will be replaced, of course), so thinking between IETF 106 and 107 would likely have been premature. I just wanted to make sure it hadn't slid off the table, for when it's not premature. Best, Spencer > Cheers > > Magnus Westerlund > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Networks, Ericsson Research > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 > Torshamnsgatan 23 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 > SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > --0000000000008adfe8059d742e94 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi, Magnus,

On Fri, Jan 31, 2020 at 9:35 A= M Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com> wrote:
Hi Spencer,

See below,

On Thu, 2020-01-30 at 15:17 -0600, Spencer Dawkins at IETF wrote:
> Hi, Magnus,
>
> I have one question.
>
> On Mon, Jan 27, 2020 at 6:22 AM Magnus Westerlund <
> magnus.westerlund=3D40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
> > WG,
> >
[SNIP]

> > The fifth focus area will provide an Applicability and Manageabil= ity
> > Statement,
> > describing how, and under what circumstances, QUIC may be safely = used, and
> > describing deployment and manageability implications of the proto= col.
>
> When Mark was talking about QUIC futures in TSVAREA at IETF 106, I ask= ed about
> this focus area.
>
> Mirja and Brian have faithfully kept this work going from the early da= ys of
> the working group (timeline is at
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc= /draft-ietf-quic-manageability/), but it's not
> moving very fast (
> https://tools.ietf.o= rg/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-quic-manageability-06..txt is a
> six-month diff), and I noted that MOPS had a QUIC troubleshooting disc= ussion
> at IETF 106 (in their first meeting after being chartered) (
> https:/= /datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/106/materials/slides-106-mops-quic-and-stream= ing-00
> ).
>
> I pointed out that this work was in QUIC because there was no other pl= ace to
> put it when QUIC was chartered, but now that MOPS was chartered, and s= eems to
> have such topics in scope, there was an opportunity to move it into MO= PS and
> let the operator types chew on it. (My experience as "Spin Bit AD= " was that
> operators do show up in QUIC when management topics are on the agenda,= but I
> don't think they've engaged much on this draft).
>
> Actual minutes from TSVAREA 106:
> Spencer: Operations/mgmt draft isn't on the list. Huh?
>
> mnot: Yes, they're important, but not getting enough attention rig= ht now.
>
> Mirja: Those are WG items.
>
> Spencer: We had QUIC ops/mgmt considerations in the QUIC working group=
> charter
> because there was nowhere else to put it. Now that Media Operations (M= OPS)
> has
> been chartered, they're already talking about measuring troublesho= oting QUIC
> from
> an operator perspective in their first working group session. Maybe th= is
> document
> should go into MOPS?
> I understood Mark to say "interesting idea, we'll think about= it".
>
> Is that still on the table someplace?

So I think this do require more thought and can be considered for the next<= br> recharter that will be more substantial. However, from my perspective I wou= ld be
careful to move to much of the management parts out the QUIC WG. The protoc= ol
defining part do need to consider its impact on managing the protocol. That=
can't simply be ignored. However, if there are certain aspects of the m= anagement
and operational part that make sense to move then I think that is a reasona= ble
option.

Well, sure. That's why I a= greed to add the management and applicability work to the QUIC charter when= we approved the working group. :-)

I was mostly t= hinking about ways to move the work forward a bit more quickly, potentially= with more operator input. And there may be other ways.=C2=A0
And I agree that this requires thought, especially with two ART= AD slots, a TSV slot, and one OPS AD slot turning over in March, as of yes= terday's Nomcom announcement (only one ART AD will be replaced, of cour= se), so thinking between IETF 106 and 107 would likely have been premature.= =C2=A0

I just wanted to make sure it hadn't sl= id off the table, for when it's not premature.

Best,

Spencer
=C2=A0
Cheers

Magnus Westerlund


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Networks, Ericsson Research
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ericsson AB=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| = Phone=C2=A0 +46 10 7148287
Torshamnsgatan 23=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| Mobile +46 73 0= 949079
SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------


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Additionally, the Working Group will provide guidance on how to enable load
balancers to handle QUIC traffic.

SGTM. A minor rephrase: "Additionally, the Working Group will provide guidance on how load balancers can be enabled to handle QUIC traffic."

--000000000000df6d9f059d7a4e3d-- From renjietang@google.com Fri Jan 31 14:02:59 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: quic@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3590C120043 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 14:02:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -17.5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-17.5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Rrtf__8BVcym for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 14:02:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm1-x32b.google.com (mail-wm1-x32b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5E59612002E for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 14:02:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm1-x32b.google.com with SMTP id t23so9695150wmi.1 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 14:02:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=uqqF8rh9eWlEwhFtDloZL2WyylZgJq2ZVxGaKVQPxGk=; b=EVV/X31yMsVjK0UiXwUqrSqqwQZRmy5Aj9RP5pcA8J2oEbuWAAQoUXecRkXxveCcR1 XvXGvyxFy4rHj2kJQMd9RkPi0YWWj5LLO/4TJ+jx+V0D63y+m7xxwDR42rKFOodo9QBr CixI7rK09cWxeFwheHxM9LHYNYRcJcwDR6jqjLU13lo1eDZxbk187WRVsI4cfazYDF33 N3XbBFwkbYBsYNIPRPoh7IZ9rpJ5taTUtvb1CrdbzEaMlw2QWQaoctdTvbQe2I9tvDNW yvzQ1McF1XdIuCvtYZioTY+oDLgYCXvJEKm4rqEm32EGtYkohkrQ6WR/4N9WxJk3v5dA Jyyw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=uqqF8rh9eWlEwhFtDloZL2WyylZgJq2ZVxGaKVQPxGk=; b=Rq5ScsepXFbCsEQzUWGtJtDVI1mN6NLGWhY8UDuQNZYplQE3Z6p9dAmRNx/lCERQ1D vDulZslBxF+rBeXUMGHFyFl4gQz2L75MiqnewB9uhi1WlN7tz3rhAE2hE9TCkzO0v7bc cIusDpKxC5ithmXFPCi5vs+yxk76prZjj+QtBEptFby3y3Kqeya3tgJe8g7QJCVYcYfg xccqI2Ido/iREkb64yZApMA1HMtNKCKdiByMClCVRucabpn9NNdkqAGlr4IsvF3xPLII aa75Uz5pp4X798wMh9KrlEHibhCYZICPkdKXIBQD/ErCuKnEs0MfOjuvL4Jy87vcXmTK Ntog== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWArA+wlTumECgtjGzwYUCxPHUANiWdV5qMyUfVLlQvHMB7LPax DpHjmbaE/7keDSn2EuEVITSTRM6GlGd/PK9fFQlucGSj X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqw95V/yk/pcSItuu850+fFw3NVX7DtphNoDTCt7WhIoDDgnqLxSq22umB+VmSOfz2tYi3TLzITm9vAqwmAPWA0= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:12d1:: with SMTP id k17mr2291721edx.291.1580508175363; Fri, 31 Jan 2020 14:02:55 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Renjie Tang Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 14:02:44 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: [HTTP/3]Sending reserved frame before SETTINGS To: quic@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005bbc63059d76bc26" Archived-At: X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 23:10:27 -0800 X-BeenThere: quic@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Main mailing list of the IETF QUIC working group List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2020 22:06:23 -0000 --0000000000005bbc63059d76bc26 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi all, When I was implementing greasing for HTTP/3 frames, I came across a potential confusion. Presumably, if a non-reserved unknown frame is received before SETTINGS on a control stream, the connection should be closed. But if a reserved frame is received before SETTINGS frame on a control stream, does it count as an error and close the connection? Or should it simply be ignored because it has no semantic meaning? Thanks! Renjie --0000000000005bbc63059d76bc26 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi all,

When I was implementing greasin= g for HTTP/3 frames, I came across a potential confusion.

Presumably, if a non-reserved unknown frame is received before SETT= INGS on a control stream, the connection should be closed.

But if a reserved frame is received before SETTINGS frame on a con= trol stream, does it count as an error and close the connection? Or should = it=C2=A0simply be ignored because it has no semantic meaning?
Thanks!
Renjie
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