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From: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
To: "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
CC: 'Benjamin Kaduk' <kaduk@mit.edu>
Thread-Topic: BOF Preparation
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Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 12:30:21 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/oqoHGiNr13XYP1JCjJxVXgNoc4w>
Subject: [Rats] BOF Preparation
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Hi Ben, Hi BOF chairs, Hi all,

I have been thinking about how to turn this BoF into a success. I see a few=
 challenges:

There are different items in scope of the work and we (Arm) are interested =
in contributing to those that relate to the EAT/attestation token work. We =
are happy to give a presentation about those but I haven't seen any agenda =
for the BoF yet. Who is in charge of preparing an agenda? I have seen BoFs =
fail where the presentations weren't well aligned or not clearly demonstrat=
ing a real-world problem.

At the BoF we will have to demonstrate that there are companies involved wh=
o are actually willing to do the heavy lifting to turn this effort into a s=
uccess. Since there are very different items listed on the proposed charter=
 text I am curious whether there is reasonable support for all of them. I c=
an only speak for our interest in the EAT items and we are working with com=
panies to state their support on the mailing list. But the BoF is likely go=
ing to fail if there is only support for a subset of the items. Where are w=
e with the rest and who is reaching out to which part of the industry?

Ciao
Hannes

IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid=
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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Ben, Hi BOF chairs, Hi all, <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I have been thinking about how to turn this BoF into=
 a success. I see a few challenges:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">There are different items in scope of the work and w=
e (Arm) are interested in contributing to those that relate to the EAT/atte=
station token work. We are happy to give a presentation about those but I h=
aven&#8217;t seen any agenda for the BoF
 yet. Who is in charge of preparing an agenda? I have seen BoFs fail where =
the presentations weren&#8217;t well aligned or not clearly demonstrating a=
 real-world problem.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">At the BoF we will have to demonstrate that there ar=
e companies involved who are actually willing to do the heavy lifting to tu=
rn this effort into a success. Since there are very different items listed =
on the proposed charter text I am
 curious whether there is reasonable support for all of them. I can only sp=
eak for our interest in the EAT items and we are working with companies to =
state their support on the mailing list. But the BoF is likely going to fai=
l if there is only support for a
 subset of the items. Where are we with the rest and who is reaching out to=
 which part of the industry?
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Ciao<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hannes<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid=
ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p=
lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any=
 other person, use it for any purpose,
 or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
</body>
</html>

--_000_VI1PR0801MB21125327AA79966191E874B4FAEB0VI1PR0801MB2112_--


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From: "Diego R. Lopez" <diego.r.lopez@telefonica.com>
To: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
CC: 'Benjamin Kaduk' <kaduk@mit.edu>
Thread-Topic: [EAT] BOF Preparation
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Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2018 22:27:12 +0000
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--_000_199F12B4011C465684C88BEDC2589282telefonicacom_--


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Subject: [Rats] Constrained Node/Network Cluster @ IETF103: DRAFT AGENDA
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Here is my usual eclectic condensed agenda based on the DRAFT AGENDA
for IETF103.  Remember that there is still quite some potential for
changes.

cbor/teep and 6tisch/suit are annoying but probably livable.
No qirg for core goers...

All times are ICT (Indochina Time) =3D=3D UTC +7 hours.  There is no
daylight saving time in effect in Thailand.  DST will have ended in
Europe by then (e.g., CET =3D UTC+0100) and will end in the US during
the initial weekend (On Sun, Nov 4; e.g. EST =3D UTC-0500).  (You can
get pure UTC times on https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/agenda-utc,
for those who want to listen from remote.)

Please note that the Friday schedule is still evolving; plan to stick
around until 13:20 or you may miss interesting conversations.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten

SATURDAY/SUNDAY, November 3/4. 2018
-- Hackathon (including various interops) (Centre Ville)
-- Sun 1700-1900  Welcome Reception - Garden at Queen's Park
-- Sun 1800-2000  Hot RFC Lightning Talks - Thai Chitlada 3

MONDAY, November 5, 2018

0900-1100  Morning Session I
Thai Chitlada 3	IRTF***	dinrg	Decentralized Internet Infrastructure =
Proposed RG
Meeting 1	OPS	v6ops	IPv6 Operations WG
Boromph. 1/2	RTG ***	roll	Routing Over Low power and Lossy =
networks WG
Thai Chitlada 1	SEC	secdispatch	Security Dispatch WG
Thai Chitlada 2	TSV	taps	Transport Services WG

1120-1220  Morning Session II
Thai Chitlada 1	IRTF	cfrg	Crypto Forum
Thai Chitlada 2	TSV	tsvarea	Transport Area Open Meeting

1350-1550  Afternoon Session I
Boromph. 1/2	ART ***	core	Constrained RESTful Environments WG
Meeting 2	OPS	anima	Autonomic Networking Integrated Model =
and Approach WG
Thai Chitlada 2	SEC	tls	Transport Layer Security WG
Thai Chitlada 3	TSV	tsvwg	Transport Area Working Group WG

1610-1810  Afternoon Session II
Meeting 1	INT ***	6lo	IPv6 over Networks of =
Resource-constrained Nodes WG
Thai Chitlada 1	IRTF	irtfopen	IRTF Open Meeting
Thai Chitlada 2	SEC	mls	Messaging Layer Security WG

TUESDAY, November 6, 2018

0900-1100  Morning Session I
Thai Chitlada 2	ART	httpbis	Hypertext Transfer Protocol WG
Meeting 1	INT ***	lpwan	IPv6 over Low Power Wide-Area Networks =
WG
Boromph. 1/2	SEC	oauth	Web Authorization Protocol WG

1120-1220  Morning Session II
Thai Chitlada 3	INT	ipwave	IP Wireless Access in Vehicular =
Environments WG
Meeting 2	SEC	oauth	Web Authorization Protocol WG

1350-1550  Afternoon Session I
Thai Chitlada 3	INT	6man	IPv6 Maintenance WG
Thai Chitlada 2	SEC	rats	Remote ATtestation ProcedureS BOF
Thai Chitlada 1	TSV	quic	QUIC WG

1610-1810  Afternoon Session II
Thai Chitlada 1	IRTF	maprg	Measurement and Analysis for Protocols
Meeting 2	IRTF***	t2trg	Thing-to-Thing

WEDNESDAY, November 7, 2018

0900-1100  Morning Session !
Thai Chitlada 3	ART ***	cbor	Concise Binary Object Representation =
Maintenance and Extensions WG
Boromph. 3	RTG	bier	Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG
Meeting 1	SEC ***	teep	Trusted Execution Environment =
Provisioning WG
Boromph. 1/2	SEC	tokbind	Token Binding WG
Thai Chitlada 1	TSV	quic	QUIC WG

1120-1220  Morning Session II
Boromph. 1/2	INT ***	lwig	Light-Weight Implementation Guidance WG
Thai Chitlada 1	SEC	tls	Transport Layer Security WG
Thai Chitlada 2	TSV	tsvwg	Transport Area Working Group WG

1350-1520  Afternoon Session I
Meeting 1	GEN	wugh	WGs Using GitHub BOF
Thai Chitlada 3	INT	homenet	Home Networking WG
Meeting 2	IRTF	panrg	Path Aware Networking RG

1540-1710  Afternoon Session II
Meeting 1	ART	dispatch	Dispatch WG - Joint with ARTAREA
Thai Chitlada 3	INT	intarea	Internet Area Working Group WG
Meeting 2	IRTF	pearg	Privacy Enhancements and Assessments =
Proposed Research Group
Boromph. 3	RTG	babel	Babel routing protocol WG
Boromph. 1/2	RTG	rift	Routing In Fat Trees WG

THURSDAY, November 8, 2018

0900-1100  Morning Session I
Thai Chitlada 1	ART	httpbis	Hypertext Transfer Protocol WG
Boromph. 4	INT ***	6tisch	IPv6 over the TSCH mode of IEEE =
802.15.4e WG
Meeting 1	IRTF	icnrg	Information-Centric Networking
Thai Chitlada 2	SEC ***	suit	Software Updates for Internet of Things =
WG

1120-1220  Morning Session II
Thai Chitlada 2	ART ***	core	Constrained RESTful Environments WG
Thai Chitlada 3	IRTF	qirg	Quantum Internet Proposed Research Group
Boromph. 4	RTG	bier	Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG
Thai Chitlada 1	SEC	mls	Messaging Layer Security WG
Meeting 2	TSV	rmcat	RTP Media Congestion Avoidance =
Techniques WG

1350-1550  Afternoon Session I
Meeting 1	INT	dnssd	Extensions for Scalable DNS Service =
Discovery  WG
Thai Chitlada 2	RTG	detnet	Deterministic Networking WG
Thai Chitlada 1	SEC	saag	Security Area Open Meeting

1610-1810  Afternoon Session II
Thai Chitlada 3	RTG	rtgarea	Routing Area Open Meeting
Thai Chitlada 1	SEC ***	ace	Authentication and Authorization for =
Constrained Environments WG
Boromph. 1/2	SEC	acme	Automated Certificate Management =
Environment WG

FRIDAY, November 9, 2018

Various ad-hoc meetings, please see
https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/103sidemeetings#FRIDAY
-- 0900..1320 T2TRG work meeting
-- 1000..???  COIN (Computing in the Network)


From nobody Fri Oct  5 23:23:58 2018
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Subject: [Rats] Attestation BoF charter updates?
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Hi Henk,

Bangkok IETF is getting close, will you be able to update the charter =
for the attestation BoF to properly include EAT?  I sent you some text =
that just needs to be pasted along with some comments. It doesn=E2=80=99t =
look like there=E2=80=99s been any updates.=20

LL


From nobody Fri Oct  5 23:51:14 2018
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From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Attestation BoF charter updates?
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------LOST9WVZX15N90N5W1HZD7CYZLDZOS
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
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Hello Laurance,

the BoF proponents are refactoring the charter based on various inputs, in=
cluding yours for example=2E This also includes some quite extensive trimmi=
ng of charter size=2E Hence, a tad bit more is done than simply the merging=
 of proposals right now=2E

We plan to float a new version to the list early next week, including an i=
nitial agenda layout=2E

Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,

Henk



On October 6, 2018 8:23:36 AM GMT+02:00, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-re=
sort=2Ecom> wrote:
>Hi Henk,
>
>Bangkok IETF is getting close, will you be able to update the charter
>for the attestation BoF to properly include EAT?  I sent you some text
>that just needs to be pasted along with some comments=2E It doesn=E2=80=
=99t look
>like there=E2=80=99s been any updates=2E=20
>
>LL

--=20
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail=2E Please excuse my brevity=2E
------LOST9WVZX15N90N5W1HZD7CYZLDZOS
Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head></head><body>Hello Laurance,<br>
<br>
the BoF proponents are refactoring the charter based on various inputs, in=
cluding yours for example=2E This also includes some quite extensive trimmi=
ng of charter size=2E Hence, a tad bit more is done than simply the merging=
 of proposals right now=2E<br>
<br>
We plan to float a new version to the list early next week, including an i=
nitial agenda layout=2E<br>
<br>
Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,<br>
<br>
Henk<br>
<br>
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On October 6, 2018 8:23:36 AM GMT+02:00=
, Laurence Lundblade &lt;lgl@island-resort=2Ecom&gt; wrote:<blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0=2E8ex; border-left: 1px so=
lid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<pre class=3D"k9mail">Hi Henk,<br /><br />Bangkok IETF is getting close, w=
ill you be able to update the charter for the attestation BoF to properly i=
nclude EAT?  I sent you some text that just needs to be pasted along with s=
ome comments=2E It doesn&rsquo;t look like there&rsquo;s been any updates=
=2E <br /><br />LL<br /><br /></pre></blockquote></div><br>
-- <br>
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail=2E Please excuse my brevity=2E</=
body></html>
------LOST9WVZX15N90N5W1HZD7CYZLDZOS--


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To: "Diego R. Lopez" <diego.r.lopez@telefonica.com>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
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From nobody Sat Oct  6 07:29:02 2018
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I believe one of the area directors asked who=E2=80=99s going to =
implement these attestation schemes we standardize.  One answer is =
Qualcomm=E2=80=99s already commercialized precursor implementation of =
EAT which is described very briefly in official marketing material on =
Qualcomm=E2=80=99s web site =
<https://www.qualcomm.com/solutions/mobile-computing/features/security/mob=
ile-security> as =E2=80=9CHardware Token=E2=80=9D.=20

LL


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">I =
believe one of the area directors asked who=E2=80=99s going to implement =
these attestation schemes we standardize. &nbsp;One answer is =
Qualcomm=E2=80=99s already commercialized precursor implementation of =
EAT which is described very briefly in&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://www.qualcomm.com/solutions/mobile-computing/features/secur=
ity/mobile-security" class=3D"">official marketing material on =
Qualcomm=E2=80=99s web site</a>&nbsp;as =E2=80=9CHardware =
Token=E2=80=9D.&nbsp;<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From nobody Sat Oct  6 10:30:52 2018
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--=-=-=
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Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com> wrote:
    > I believe one of the area directors asked who=E2=80=99s going to impl=
ement
    > these attestation schemes we standardize. One answer is Qualcomm=E2=
=80=99s
    > already commercialized precursor implementation of EAT which is
    > described very briefly in official marketing material on Qualcomm=E2=
=80=99s
    > web site as =E2=80=9CHardware Token=E2=80=9D.

I see this as evidence:
  1) the market doesn't need/want a standard
  2) Qualcomm isn't going to implement our standard, they already have thei=
r own.

Now that could be trivially be refuted if we saw clear participation from
qualcomm, but I haven't seen it yet.  But, maybe I missed it.

I await the charter.
So far I haven't seen something that is concrete enough to be useful on its=
 own.

=2D-
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-




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To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
CC: "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [EXTERNAL] Re: [EAT] [Rats] Real EAT implementations
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EXTERNAL] Re: [EAT]  Real EAT implementations
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From: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>,  "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/f5G2p864vwZTB6hp0NbjlYkVPAc>
Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT]  Real EAT implementations
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Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2018 10:11:01 -0400
From: Carl Wallace <carl@redhoundsoftware.com>
To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, <eat@ietf.org>, <rats@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <D7DF897C.C2954%carl@redhoundsoftware.com>
Thread-Topic: [EAT] [Rats] Real EAT implementations
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/oI8JKAghg9L5_NJ4Xl9dvCuPH-s>
Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT]  Real EAT implementations
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On 10/6/18, 1:30 PM, "EAT on behalf of Michael Richardson"
<eat-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:

>
>Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com> wrote:
>    > I believe one of the area directors asked who=E2=80=99s going to implement
>    > these attestation schemes we standardize.

[CW] I work on a product that consumes several different types of
attestations in support of public key certificate issuance to phones and
tablets. We would likely adopt standard formats, verification rules and
bindings to certificate management protocols, where possible. We've had to
roll our own mechanisms to work around lack of standards support in some
cases (but in no case are we the source of an attestation, which may be
the spirit of the question).

>    > One answer is Qualcomm=E2=80=99s
>    > already commercialized precursor implementation of EAT which is
>    > described very briefly in official marketing material on Qualcomm=E2=80=99=
s
>    > web site as =E2=80=9CHardware Token=E2=80=9D.
>
>I see this as evidence:
>  1) the market doesn't need/want a standard

[CW] There are definitely gaps that would benefit from standardization and
some proprietary mechanisms that could be improved by adopting the result
of standards work, if vendors that generate attestations are willing.

>  2) Qualcomm isn't going to implement our standard, they already have
>their own.
>
>Now that could be trivially be refuted if we saw clear participation from
>qualcomm, but I haven't seen it yet.  But, maybe I missed it.
>
>I await the charter.
>So far I haven't seen something that is concrete enough to be useful on
>its own.
>
>--
>Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
> -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>EAT mailing list
>EAT@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat



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From: "Diego R. Lopez" <diego.r.lopez@telefonica.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/U25MWrpM3GL4JJt9os6RRikB9dg>
Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT] BOF Preparation
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From: Suresh Marisetty <Suresh.Marisetty@arm.com>
To: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [EAT] [Rats] Real EAT implementations
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT]  Real EAT implementations
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From: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
To: "Diego R. Lopez" <diego.r.lopez@telefonica.com>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
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From: "Shwetha Bhandari (shwethab)" <shwethab@cisco.com>
To: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, "Diego R. Lopez" <diego.r.lopez@telefonica.com>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
CC: "'Benjamin Kaduk'" <kaduk@mit.edu>, "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] [EAT] BOF Preparation
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Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2018 02:00:43 +0000
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From: Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay <jmfmckay@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2018 11:41:34 -0400
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To: shwethab@cisco.com
Cc: Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com, "Diego R. Lopez" <diego.r.lopez@telefonica.com>, eat@ietf.org,  rats@ietf.org, "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>, kaduk@mit.edu,  "Fitzgerald-McKay, Jessica M" <jmfitz2@radium.ncsc.mil>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT]  BOF Preparation
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All,
Wanted to weigh in while we are still scoping this work. I'd be interested
in seeing RATS address solutions that meet supply chain risk and cyber
hygiene use cases. For example, knowing that the device on the network is
the one you are expecting, knowing what it is running and that it's code
has not been modified, being able to compare an expected posture to the
current posture of the device, and so forth. Being able to answer these
questions in a vendor-neutral way is critical for networks with diverse
infrastructure.

Thanks,
Jess

On Mon, Oct 8, 2018 at 10:00 PM Shwetha Bhandari (shwethab) <
shwethab@cisco.com> wrote:

> Hi Hannes, All,
>
>
>
> A number of networking vendors have expressed interest in contributing to
> and implementing the models on the network devices to provide
> challenge-response as well as unidirectional attestation.
> =E2=80=9Cdraft-birkholz-yang-basic-remote-attestation=E2=80=9D shows some=
 of this support.
>
>
>
> Also commercial implementations of applications exposing the boot
> integrity of devices exist.  E.g., see:
>
>
> https://www.cisco.com/c/dam/en/us/td/docs/cloud-systems-management/applic=
ation-policy-infrastructure-controller-enterprise-module/1-5-x/integrity_ve=
rification/release-notes_ver_275/Cisco_IV_App_RN_1_5_0_275.pdf
>
>
>
> A standard data model and any protocol extension(s) for interoperability
> that fits in the existing network operations will be of key value in
> exposing proof of network device integrity. At Cisco, we are geared up to
> progress this work.
>
>
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Shwetha
>
> *From: *RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Hannes Tschofenig <
> Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
> *Date: *Tuesday, October 9, 2018 at 1:13 AM
> *To: *"Diego R. Lopez" <diego.r.lopez@telefonica.com>, "eat@ietf.org" <
> eat@ietf.org>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
> *Cc: *'Benjamin Kaduk' <kaduk@mit.edu>
> *Subject: *Re: [Rats] [EAT] BOF Preparation
>
>
>
> Thanks, Diego. That=E2=80=99s useful input on the scenarios you are looki=
ng into.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Diego R. Lopez <diego.r.lopez@telefonica.com>
> *Sent:* Sunday, October 7, 2018 6:53 PM
> *To:* Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>; eat@ietf.org;
> rats@ietf.org
> *Cc:* 'Benjamin Kaduk' <kaduk@mit.edu>
> *Subject:* Re: [EAT] BOF Preparation
>
>
>
> Hi Hannes,
>
>
>
> We are interested in using the base technology (whatever is supported in
> low level software or operating systems) to support attestation of NFV
> deployments, especially those related with the collaboration of third
> parties: with universal EPC, and edge computing as the main use cases. An=
d,
> while is true we are not developing the base software, we are collaborati=
ng
> with academic teams working at the hypervisor and container platform leve=
l.
>
>
>
> Be goode,
>
>
>
> --
>
> "Esta vez no fallaremos, Doctor Infierno"
>
>
>
> Dr Diego R. Lopez
>
> Telefonica I+D
>
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr2lopez/
>
>
>
> e-mail: diego.r.lopez@telefonica.com
>
> Tel:         +34 913 129 041
>
> Mobile:  +34 682 051 091
>
> ----------------------------------
>
>
>
> On 06/10/2018, 11:08, "Hannes Tschofenig" <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi Diego,
>
>
>
> I guess Telefonica is a user of the technology*. How would leverage the
> results?
>
>
>
> Ciao
>
> Hannes
>
>
>
> *: You are not manufacturing chips, developing operating systems, or
> writing low level software (like firmware) that integrates the discussed
> attestation technology. Is that correct?
>
>
>
> *From:* Diego R. Lopez <diego.r.lopez@telefonica.com>
> *Sent:* Saturday, October 6, 2018 12:27 AM
> *To:* Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>; eat@ietf.org;
> rats@ietf.org
> *Cc:* 'Benjamin Kaduk' <kaduk@mit.edu>
> *Subject:* Re: [EAT] BOF Preparation
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
>
> We are interested in fostering attestation technologies able to support
> and leverage network virtualization techniques (yes, NFV strikes back=E2=
=80=A6),
> and are in contact with other companies that share the same interest.
>
>
>
> I won=E2=80=99t make it to Bangkok, but will be happy to help in anything=
 I can
> through remote participation.
>
>
>
> Be goode,
>
>
>
> --
>
> "Esta vez no fallaremos, Doctor Infierno"
>
>
>
> Dr Diego R. Lopez
>
> Telefonica I+D
>
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr2lopez/
>
>
>
> e-mail: diego.r.lopez@telefonica.com
>
> Tel:         +34 913 129 041
>
> Mobile:  +34 682 051 091
>
> ----------------------------------
>
>
>
> On 05/10/2018, 14:30, "EAT on behalf of Hannes Tschofenig" <
> eat-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi Ben, Hi BOF chairs, Hi all,
>
>
>
> I have been thinking about how to turn this BoF into a success. I see a
> few challenges:
>
>
>
> There are different items in scope of the work and we (Arm) are intereste=
d
> in contributing to those that relate to the EAT/attestation token work. W=
e
> are happy to give a presentation about those but I haven=E2=80=99t seen a=
ny agenda
> for the BoF yet. Who is in charge of preparing an agenda? I have seen BoF=
s
> fail where the presentations weren=E2=80=99t well aligned or not clearly
> demonstrating a real-world problem.
>
>
>
> At the BoF we will have to demonstrate that there are companies involved
> who are actually willing to do the heavy lifting to turn this effort into=
 a
> success. Since there are very different items listed on the proposed
> charter text I am curious whether there is reasonable support for all of
> them. I can only speak for our interest in the EAT items and we are worki=
ng
> with companies to state their support on the mailing list. But the BoF is
> likely going to fail if there is only support for a subset of the items.
> Where are we with the rest and who is reaching out to which part of the
> industry?
>
>
>
> Ciao
>
> Hannes
>
>
>
> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are
> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the
> contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy th=
e
> information in any medium. Thank you.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
> Este mensaje y sus adjuntos se dirigen exclusivamente a su destinatario,
> puede contener informaci=C3=B3n privilegiada o confidencial y es para uso
> exclusivo de la persona o entidad de destino. Si no es usted. el
> destinatario indicado, queda notificado de que la lectura, utilizaci=C3=
=B3n,
> divulgaci=C3=B3n y/o copia sin autorizaci=C3=B3n puede estar prohibida en=
 virtud de
> la legislaci=C3=B3n vigente. Si ha recibido este mensaje por error, le ro=
gamos
> que nos lo comunique inmediatamente por esta misma v=C3=ADa y proceda a s=
u
> destrucci=C3=B3n.
>
> The information contained in this transmission is privileged and
> confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or
> entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended
> recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution o=
r
> copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have receive=
d
> this transmission in error, do not read it. Please immediately reply to t=
he
> sender that you have received this communication in error and then delete
> it.
>
> Esta mensagem e seus anexos se dirigem exclusivamente ao seu destinat=C3=
=A1rio,
> pode conter informa=C3=A7=C3=A3o privilegiada ou confidencial e =C3=A9 pa=
ra uso exclusivo
> da pessoa ou entidade de destino. Se n=C3=A3o =C3=A9 vossa senhoria o des=
tinat=C3=A1rio
> indicado, fica notificado de que a leitura, utiliza=C3=A7=C3=A3o, divulga=
=C3=A7=C3=A3o e/ou
> c=C3=B3pia sem autoriza=C3=A7=C3=A3o pode estar proibida em virtude da le=
gisla=C3=A7=C3=A3o vigente.
> Se recebeu esta mensagem por erro, rogamos-lhe que nos o comunique
> imediatamente por esta mesma via e proceda a sua destrui=C3=A7=C3=A3o
>
> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are
> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the
> contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy th=
e
> information in any medium. Thank you.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
> Este mensaje y sus adjuntos se dirigen exclusivamente a su destinatario,
> puede contener informaci=C3=B3n privilegiada o confidencial y es para uso
> exclusivo de la persona o entidad de destino. Si no es usted. el
> destinatario indicado, queda notificado de que la lectura, utilizaci=C3=
=B3n,
> divulgaci=C3=B3n y/o copia sin autorizaci=C3=B3n puede estar prohibida en=
 virtud de
> la legislaci=C3=B3n vigente. Si ha recibido este mensaje por error, le ro=
gamos
> que nos lo comunique inmediatamente por esta misma v=C3=ADa y proceda a s=
u
> destrucci=C3=B3n.
>
> The information contained in this transmission is privileged and
> confidential information intended only for the use of the individual or
> entity named above. If the reader of this message is not the intended
> recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution o=
r
> copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have receive=
d
> this transmission in error, do not read it. Please immediately reply to t=
he
> sender that you have received this communication in error and then delete
> it.
>
> Esta mensagem e seus anexos se dirigem exclusivamente ao seu destinat=C3=
=A1rio,
> pode conter informa=C3=A7=C3=A3o privilegiada ou confidencial e =C3=A9 pa=
ra uso exclusivo
> da pessoa ou entidade de destino. Se n=C3=A3o =C3=A9 vossa senhoria o des=
tinat=C3=A1rio
> indicado, fica notificado de que a leitura, utiliza=C3=A7=C3=A3o, divulga=
=C3=A7=C3=A3o e/ou
> c=C3=B3pia sem autoriza=C3=A7=C3=A3o pode estar proibida em virtude da le=
gisla=C3=A7=C3=A3o vigente.
> Se recebeu esta mensagem por erro, rogamos-lhe que nos o comunique
> imediatamente por esta mesma via e proceda a sua destrui=C3=A7=C3=A3o
>
> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are
> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the
> contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy th=
e
> information in any medium. Thank you.
> _______________________________________________
> EAT mailing list
> EAT@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat
>

--0000000000004d69df0577cd9348
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">Al=
l,<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">Wanted =
to weigh in while we are still scoping this work. I&#39;d be interested in =
seeing RATS address solutions that meet supply chain risk and cyber hygiene=
 use cases. For example, knowing that the device on the network is the one =
you are expecting, knowing what it is running and that it&#39;s code has no=
t been modified, being able to compare an expected posture to the current p=
osture of the device, and so forth. Being able to answer these questions in=
 a vendor-neutral way is critical for networks with diverse infrastructure.=
 <br><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">Than=
ks,<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0)">Jess<b=
r></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Mon, Oct 8=
, 2018 at 10:00 PM Shwetha Bhandari (shwethab) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:shweth=
ab@cisco.com">shwethab@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex">







<div bgcolor=3D"white" lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div class=3D"m_8815898697962209402WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">Hi Hannes, All,<=
u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier"><u></u>=C2=A0<u>=
</u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">A number of netw=
orking vendors have expressed interest in contributing to and implementing =
the models on the network devices to provide challenge-response as well as =
unidirectional attestation.=C2=A0 =E2=80=9Cdraft-birkholz-yang-basic-remote=
-attestation=E2=80=9D
 shows some of this support. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier"><u></u>=C2=A0<u>=
</u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">Also commercial =
implementations of applications exposing the boot integrity of devices exis=
t.=C2=A0 E.g., see:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier"><a href=3D"https=
://www.cisco.com/c/dam/en/us/td/docs/cloud-systems-management/application-p=
olicy-infrastructure-controller-enterprise-module/1-5-x/integrity_verificat=
ion/release-notes_ver_275/Cisco_IV_App_RN_1_5_0_275.pdf" target=3D"_blank">=
https://www.cisco.com/c/dam/en/us/td/docs/cloud-systems-management/applicat=
ion-policy-infrastructure-controller-enterprise-module/1-5-x/integrity_veri=
fication/release-notes_ver_275/Cisco_IV_App_RN_1_5_0_275.pdf</a><u></u><u><=
/u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier"><u></u>=C2=A0<u>=
</u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">A standard data =
model and any protocol extension(s) for interoperability that fits in the e=
xisting network operations will be of key value in exposing proof of networ=
k device integrity. At Cisco, we are
 geared up to progress this work.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier"><u></u>=C2=A0<u>=
</u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier"><u></u>=C2=A0<u>=
</u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">Thanks,<u></u><u=
></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Courier">Shwetha<u></u><u=
></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"color:black">From: </span></b><spa=
n style=3D"color:black">RATS &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org" t=
arget=3D"_blank">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Hannes Tschofen=
ig &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com" target=3D"_blank">Hanne=
s.Tschofenig@arm.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Date: </b>Tuesday, October 9, 2018 at 1:13 AM<br>
<b>To: </b>&quot;Diego R. Lopez&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:diego.r.lopez@t=
elefonica.com" target=3D"_blank">diego.r.lopez@telefonica.com</a>&gt;, &quo=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:eat@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">eat@ietf.org</a>&quot; =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eat@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">eat@ietf.org</a>&gt;,=
 &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rats@ietf.org</a>=
&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rats@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc: </b>&#39;Benjamin Kaduk&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kaduk@mit.edu" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">kaduk@mit.edu</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Rats] [EAT] BOF Preparation</span><span style=3D"font-=
size:12.0pt;color:black"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quo=
t;"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks, Diego. That=E2=80=99s useful input on the sc=
enarios you are looking into.
<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Diego R. Lopez &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:di=
ego.r.lopez@telefonica.com" target=3D"_blank">diego.r.lopez@telefonica.com<=
/a>&gt; <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, October 7, 2018 6:53 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Hannes Tschofenig &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.co=
m" target=3D"_blank">Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:e=
at@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">eat@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:rats@iet=
f.org" target=3D"_blank">rats@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> &#39;Benjamin Kaduk&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kaduk@mit.edu" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">kaduk@mit.edu</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [EAT] BOF Preparation<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">Hi Hannes,</span><u=
></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">=C2=A0</span><u></u=
><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">We are interested i=
n using the base technology (whatever is supported in low level software or=
 operating systems) to support attestation of NFV deployments, especially t=
hose related with the collaboration
 of third parties: with universal EPC, and edge computing as the main use c=
ases. And, while is true we are not developing the base software, we are co=
llaborating with academic teams working at the hypervisor and container pla=
tform level.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">=C2=A0</span><u></u=
><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">Be goode,</span><u>=
</u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">=C2=A0</span><u></u=
><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"ES" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">--</spa=
n><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"ES" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">&quot;E=
sta vez no fallaremos, Doctor Infierno&quot;</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"ES" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">=C2=A0<=
/span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"ES" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">Dr Dieg=
o R. Lopez</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"ES" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">Telefon=
ica I+D</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"ES" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt"><a href=
=3D"https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr2lopez/" target=3D"_blank">https://www.li=
nkedin.com/in/dr2lopez/</a>=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"ES" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">=C2=A0<=
/span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"ES" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">e-mail:=
=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt"><a href=3D"mailto:diego.r.lop=
ez@telefonica.com" target=3D"_blank">diego.r.lopez@telefonica.com</a></span=
><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">Tel:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +34 913 129 041</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">Mobile: =C2=A0+34 6=
82 051 091</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">-------------------=
---------------</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">=C2=A0</span><u></u=
><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span lang=3D"ES">On 06/1=
0/2018, 11:08, &quot;Hannes Tschofenig&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Hannes.T=
schofenig@arm.com" target=3D"_blank">Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com</a>&gt; wrot=
e:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span lang=3D"ES">=C2=A0<=
/span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span lang=3D"ES">Hi Dieg=
o, </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span lang=3D"ES">=C2=A0<=
/span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span lang=3D"ES">I guess=
 Telefonica is a user of the technology*. How would leverage the results?
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span lang=3D"ES">=C2=A0<=
/span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span lang=3D"ES">Ciao</s=
pan><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span lang=3D"ES">Hannes<=
/span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span lang=3D"ES">=C2=A0<=
/span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span lang=3D"ES">*: You =
are not manufacturing chips, developing operating systems, or writing low l=
evel software (like firmware) that integrates the discussed attestation tec=
hnology. Is that correct?
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span lang=3D"ES">=C2=A0<=
/span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><b>From:</b> Diego R. Lop=
ez &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:diego.r.lopez@telefonica.com" target=3D"_blank">di=
ego.r.lopez@telefonica.com</a>&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, October 6, 2018 12:27 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Hannes Tschofenig &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.co=
m" target=3D"_blank">Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:eat@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">eat@ietf.org</a>; <a href=
=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rats@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> &#39;Benjamin Kaduk&#39; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kaduk@mit.edu" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">kaduk@mit.edu</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [EAT] BOF Preparation<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span lang=3D"ES">=C2=A0<=
/span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span lang=3D"ES" style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt">Hi,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span lang=3D"ES" style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span lang=3D"ES" style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt">We are interested in fostering attestation technologi=
es able to support and leverage network virtualization techniques (yes, NFV=
 strikes back=E2=80=A6), and are in contact with other
 companies that share the same interest.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span lang=3D"ES" style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span lang=3D"ES" style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt">I won=E2=80=99t make it to Bangkok, but will be happy=
 to help in anything I can through remote participation.</span><u></u><u></=
u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span lang=3D"ES" style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span lang=3D"ES" style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt">Be goode,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span lang=3D"ES" style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span lang=3D"ES" style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt">--</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span lang=3D"ES" style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt">&quot;Esta vez no fallaremos, Doctor Infierno&quot;</=
span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span lang=3D"ES" style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span lang=3D"ES" style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt">Dr Diego R. Lopez</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span lang=3D"ES" style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt">Telefonica I+D</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span lang=3D"ES" style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt"><a href=3D"https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr2lopez/" tar=
get=3D"_blank">https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr2lopez/</a>=C2=A0</span><u></u=
><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span lang=3D"ES" style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span lang=3D"ES" style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt">e-mail:=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:diego.r.lopez@telefoni=
ca.com" target=3D"_blank"><span lang=3D"EN-US">diego.r.lopez@telefonica.com=
</span></a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span lang=3D"ES" style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt">Tel:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 +34 9=
13 129 041</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span lang=3D"ES" style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt">Mobile: =C2=A0+34 682 051 091</span><u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span lang=3D"ES" style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt">----------------------------------</span><u></u><u></=
u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span lang=3D"ES" style=
=3D"font-size:10.0pt">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><span lang=3D"ES">On 05/=
10/2018, 14:30, &quot;EAT on behalf of Hannes Tschofenig&quot; &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">eat-bounces@ietf.org</a>=
 on behalf of
<a href=3D"mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com" target=3D"_blank">Hannes.Tscho=
fenig@arm.com</a>&gt; wrote:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><span lang=3D"ES">=C2=A0=
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><span lang=3D"ES">Hi Ben=
, Hi BOF chairs, Hi all,
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><span lang=3D"ES">=C2=A0=
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><span lang=3D"ES">I have=
 been thinking about how to turn this BoF into a success. I see a few chall=
enges:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><span lang=3D"ES">=C2=A0=
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><span lang=3D"ES">There =
are different items in scope of the work and we (Arm) are interested in con=
tributing to those that relate to the EAT/attestation token work. We are ha=
ppy to give a presentation about those
 but I haven=E2=80=99t seen any agenda for the BoF yet. Who is in charge of=
 preparing an agenda? I have seen BoFs fail where the presentations weren=
=E2=80=99t well aligned or not clearly demonstrating a real-world problem.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><span lang=3D"ES">=C2=A0=
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><span lang=3D"ES">At the=
 BoF we will have to demonstrate that there are companies involved who are =
actually willing to do the heavy lifting to turn this effort into a success=
. Since there are very different items
 listed on the proposed charter text I am curious whether there is reasonab=
le support for all of them. I can only speak for our interest in the EAT it=
ems and we are working with companies to state their support on the mailing=
 list. But the BoF is likely going
 to fail if there is only support for a subset of the items. Where are we w=
ith the rest and who is reaching out to which part of the industry?
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><span lang=3D"ES">=C2=A0=
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><span lang=3D"ES">Ciao</=
span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><span lang=3D"ES">Hannes=
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><span lang=3D"ES">=C2=A0=
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:1.0in"><span lang=3D"ES">IMPORT=
ANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential=
 and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please =
notify the sender immediately and do not
 disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or stor=
e or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span lang=3D"ES">=C2=A0<=
/span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style=3D"margin-left:.5in">
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span=
 lang=3D"ES">
<hr size=3D"1" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</span></div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span lang=3D"ES" style=
=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:gray"><br>
Este mensaje y sus adjuntos se dirigen exclusivamente a su destinatario, pu=
ede contener informaci=C3=B3n privilegiada o confidencial y es para uso exc=
lusivo de la persona o entidad de destino. Si no es usted. el destinatario =
indicado, queda notificado de que la
 lectura, utilizaci=C3=B3n, divulgaci=C3=B3n y/o copia sin autorizaci=C3=B3=
n puede estar prohibida en virtud de la legislaci=C3=B3n vigente. Si ha rec=
ibido este mensaje por error, le rogamos que nos lo comunique inmediatament=
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=3D"ES" style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:PMingLiU;color:gray"><br>
<br>
</span><span lang=3D"ES" style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:g=
ray">The information contained in this transmission is privileged and confi=
dential information intended only for the use of the individual or entity n=
amed above. If the reader of this message
 is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disseminat=
ion, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. =
If you have received this transmission in error, do not read it. Please imm=
ediately reply to the sender that
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Esta mensagem e seus anexos se dirigem exclusivamente ao seu destinat=C3=A1=
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span lang=3D"ES">IMPORTA=
NT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential =
and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please n=
otify the sender immediately and do not
 disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or stor=
e or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"ES">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><span=
 lang=3D"ES">
<hr size=3D"3" width=3D"100%" align=3D"center">
</span></div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"ES" style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-fami=
ly:Arial;color:gray"><br>
Este mensaje y sus adjuntos se dirigen exclusivamente a su destinatario, pu=
ede contener informaci=C3=B3n privilegiada o confidencial y es para uso exc=
lusivo de la persona o entidad de destino. Si no es usted. el destinatario =
indicado, queda notificado de que la
 lectura, utilizaci=C3=B3n, divulgaci=C3=B3n y/o copia sin autorizaci=C3=B3=
n puede estar prohibida en virtud de la legislaci=C3=B3n vigente. Si ha rec=
ibido este mensaje por error, le rogamos que nos lo comunique inmediatament=
e por esta misma v=C3=ADa y proceda a su destrucci=C3=B3n.</span><span lang=
=3D"ES" style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:PMingLiU;color:gray"><br>
<br>
</span><span lang=3D"ES" style=3D"font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:g=
ray">The information contained in this transmission is privileged and confi=
dential information intended only for the use of the individual or entity n=
amed above. If the reader of this message
 is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disseminat=
ion, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. =
If you have received this transmission in error, do not read it. Please imm=
ediately reply to the sender that
 you have received this communication in error and then delete it.<br>
<br>
Esta mensagem e seus anexos se dirigem exclusivamente ao seu destinat=C3=A1=
rio, pode conter informa=C3=A7=C3=A3o privilegiada ou confidencial e =C3=A9=
 para uso exclusivo da pessoa ou entidade de destino. Se n=C3=A3o =C3=A9 vo=
ssa senhoria o destinat=C3=A1rio indicado, fica notificado de que a
 leitura, utiliza=C3=A7=C3=A3o, divulga=C3=A7=C3=A3o e/ou c=C3=B3pia sem au=
toriza=C3=A7=C3=A3o pode estar proibida em virtude da legisla=C3=A7=C3=A3o =
vigente. Se recebeu esta mensagem por erro, rogamos-lhe que nos o comunique=
 imediatamente por esta mesma via e proceda a sua destrui=C3=A7=C3=A3o</spa=
n><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ti=
mes New Roman&quot;">IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any a=
ttachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the =
intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately
 and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpo=
se, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>

_______________________________________________<br>
EAT mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:EAT@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">EAT@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat" rel=3D"noreferrer" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

--0000000000004d69df0577cd9348--


From nobody Thu Oct 11 09:50:05 2018
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To: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
CC: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>
References: <5D773C02-5083-4B10-A705-782E28FD8ADB@island-resort.com>
From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
Message-ID: <f84515dd-2e1a-7e66-7c23-b16f8f425d2a@sit.fraunhofer.de>
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2018 18:49:46 +0200
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Attestation BoF charter updates?
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Hi all,

sorry for the delay. Please find an updated charter proposal here:

> https://github.com/ietf-rats/charter/blob/RC2/ietf-rats-charter.md

The BoF proponents tried to merge all comments and proposals on 
keystores, existing solutions, provenance & device characteristics, etc 
that were raised on the list - and align them in homogeneous fashion.

This draft is intended to focus the discussion and improve the wording.

Viele Grüße,

Henk

On 10/06/2018 08:23 AM, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
> Hi Henk,
> 
> Bangkok IETF is getting close, will you be able to update the charter for the attestation BoF to properly include EAT?  I sent you some text that just needs to be pasted along with some comments. It doesn’t look like there’s been any updates.
> 
> LL
> 


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From: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
cc: "rats\@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, "eat\@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
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Comments: In-reply-to Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> message dated "Thu, 11 Oct 2018 18:49:46 +0200."
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re: "Information Elements (IE)"

If you have some wiggle room (i.e. you aren't trying to align with some other
pre-existing standards work elsehwere), it might be worth using another term,
as I think that this term is used for layer-2 extensions in 802.15.4
networks. I think that some people will be confused by this.  I think your
usage is very much a layer 6+ (abstract) concept.

I found the introduction to be meaningful only to those who already know what
it is about.  I suggest the following edits.  I make some of them just that
the charter will continue to meaningful in a year or two.

    Introduction
    Remote ATtestation ProcedureS (RATS) are included in network protocols to
    provide the basis for establishing trustworthy exchanges with a device.
    RATS expose trusted claim sets to detailed Attestation Evidence that
    enables a Verifying Party to retrace every step that led to its current
    Operational State. A consequence of this retracing is that it is possible
    to appraise the trustworthiness of a device. Application of RATS
    encompasses infrastructure supporting financial transactions, critical
    infrastructure, constrained-node environments, or the management of
    end-user devices.

    Measured file execution procedures (including the now deprecated term
    Secure Boot) provide the basis for conveying additional device
    characteristics that enable a Verifying Party to assess that a device is
    a Trusted System: one that operates as expected, does what is required,
    and does not do other things. Various Roots of Trust (e.g. for
    Measurement, for Reporting, or for Verification) provide the foundation
    to enable Implicit Attestation (the fact that a secret key is accessible
    implies specific meaning) and Explicit Attestation, which uses the output
    of Measured file execution as Attestation Evidence which along with event
    Log details can be used to can ratify that the device is actually a
    Trusted System.

    Problem Statement
    (1) We need a standard way to establish a sufficient level of confidence that a communication
    partner is with a trustworthy endpoint. This is a fundamental
    challenge.

    a) In 2018, there were no agreed upon standards that define a
       minimal set of Reference Values and Attestation Evidence that
       distinguishes a trustworthy execution environment over one that
       isn't.

    b) There isn't agreement on how to convey it appropriately, how to
        appraise evidence and how to present the appraisal results in an
        interoperable fashion. In essence, there is increasing demand for an
        overall communication, trust and assurance model to establish trust in
        potentially lying endpoints that is not currently met by other
        standards.

    (2) In 2018, there are no common, standard ways for Relying Parties to know
    the provenance and characteristics of a device (e.g., an end-user device,
    platform or endpoint, servers, IoT devices, device subsystems and
    sub-modules) that may be requesting services.

    As a result, in 2018, a Relying Party would be unable to tell if a device is
    trying to mimic the identity of another device or
    some of its characteristics.   For instance, distinguishing between a
    secure wallet and INSERT SOMETHING would be relevant for a financial
    transaction.

    In 2018 there are existing domain-specific ways to do this, such as TCG TPM
    Attestation, FIDO Alliance attestation and Android Keystore Attestation.

    (3) Risk engines collect large amounts of information from a device in
    order to determine whether it is allowed access to data, a financial
    transaction or to perform other risk-sensitive operations. Agreement over
    the syntax and semantics of provenance and characteristics is essential
    for interoperability. Attestation provenance and characteristics
    represented via IE require proper definitions as Assertions. Standardized
    assertions promote increased - possibly ubiquitous -
    interoperability. Assertions also must be believable, for example, via
    Evidence that proves Assertion veracity.

...

Goals
    > Syntax for each Assertion in CBOR, JSON, YANG, and potentially others
    > [reintroduce terminology here? TARGET 2 @everyone, please chime in
    > here}

The only two have missed are XML and ASN.1, and I don't see that as a bug.
Writing in YANG, it's all mappable there if someone wants to do this.
I think you will also be using YANG for data at rest (yang-data), rather than
accessed by API.  This seems an increasingly common usage.

>Deliverables
> Attestation information flows, consolidated terminology and corresponding
> taxonomies (overview/architecture to be developed in parallel with solution
> documents; can be separate document or go into 2, 3, 4 below)

In a break from the waterfall method of requirements, use-cases and then
protocols (or rather, in this case, artifact formats), I suggest that that
each be worked on in parallel, and that the terminology and architecture
documents be constrained to be published *LAST*. But, the WG should issue WG
Consensus Calls on the documents at intervals such that the text is in them
can be considered authoritative enough to answer questions in the protocol.

Note that I cut out a bunch of text from the Introduction. It didn't help me
understand the purpose of the group.  Also I note that IE is never used again
after the first paragraph, so I think you could just call them artifacts.

--
]               Never tell me the odds!                 | ipv6 mesh networks [
]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works        | network architect  [
]     mcr@sandelman.ca  http://www.sandelman.ca/        |   ruby on rails    [







--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-




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From nobody Thu Oct 11 13:43:25 2018
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From: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
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Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2018 22:43:12 +0200
Cc: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT]  Attestation BoF charter updates?
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On Oct 11, 2018, at 22:07, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> =
wrote:
>=20
> re: "Information Elements (IE)"
>=20
> If you have some wiggle room (i.e. you aren't trying to align with =
some other
> pre-existing standards work elsehwere), it might be worth using =
another term,
> as I think that this term is used for layer-2 extensions in 802.15.4
> networks.

I prefer =E2=80=9Cdata item=E2=80=9D (about half the number of =
syllables), but maybe this is too much of a CBOR term.

>> Deliverables
>> Attestation information flows, consolidated terminology and =
corresponding
>> taxonomies (overview/architecture to be developed in parallel with =
solution
>> documents; can be separate document or go into 2, 3, 4 below)
>=20
> In a break from the waterfall method of requirements, use-cases and =
then
> protocols (or rather, in this case, artifact formats), I suggest that =
that
> each be worked on in parallel,

Absolutely!  (This may now be so obvious to the charter authors that =
they neglected to state it.)

> and that the terminology and architecture
> documents be constrained to be published *LAST*.

Well, at the same time, because the other documents will want to use the =
terms.

> But, the WG should issue WG
> Consensus Calls on the documents at intervals such that the text is in =
them
> can be considered authoritative enough to answer questions in the =
protocol.

The charter doesn=E2=80=99t go into a lot of details of how the WG =
should work =E2=80=94 that is normally not part of the IESG-WG contract =
(which we call charter).  But doing this in a sequence of milestones may =
be a good suggestion.

> Note that I cut out a bunch of text from the Introduction. It didn't =
help me
> understand the purpose of the group.  Also I note that IE is never =
used again
> after the first paragraph, so I think you could just call them =
artifacts.

Works for me, too.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


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From: Carl Wallace <carl@redhoundsoftware.com>
To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: [Rats] Attestation BoF charter updates?
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As with the earlier draft, there are many references to verify and
verifier in the lead up to the deliverable but no deliverables describing
verification rules. I'd like to see rules in one of these documents and
think it worth citing in the deliverables. Are bindings to certificate
management protocols out of scope?

On 10/11/18, 9:49 AM, "RATS on behalf of Henk Birkholz"
<rats-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:

>Hi all,
>
>sorry for the delay. Please find an updated charter proposal here:
>
>> https://github.com/ietf-rats/charter/blob/RC2/ietf-rats-charter.md
>
>The BoF proponents tried to merge all comments and proposals on
>keystores, existing solutions, provenance & device characteristics, etc
>that were raised on the list - and align them in homogeneous fashion.
>
>This draft is intended to focus the discussion and improve the wording.
>
>Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>
>Henk
>
>On 10/06/2018 08:23 AM, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>> Hi Henk,
>>=20
>> Bangkok IETF is getting close, will you be able to update the charter
>>for the attestation BoF to properly include EAT?  I sent you some text
>>that just needs to be pasted along with some comments. It doesn=E2=80=99t look
>>like there=E2=80=99s been any updates.
>>=20
>> LL
>>=20
>
>_______________________________________________
>RATS mailing list
>RATS@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats



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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT] [EXTERNAL] Re:  Attestation BoF charter updates?
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Hi Jeremy & Denis,

all these points of view have merit, I think.

Please have a look at these quotes:

> knowing the provenance of the device

> having the entity creator/manufacturer provide a set of claims which can be verified

> to know the characteristics of a device by issuing to the device a public key certificate which will only be issued to the device if it fulfills an expected set of functionalities.

To me, these descriptions seem to have different intents, scope or 
audience and require most certainly different work-flows, but 
semantically and in consequence representation-wise they also seem quite 
related.

If you think of an identity document as a set of claims (potentially 
including a public key), that is signed and that can match one or more 
things, maybe all three types highlighted above are actually covered by 
the same identity document concept?

With respect to identity documents, I think it is safe so say that we 
can find common ground here rather easily. That said, the way how these 
identity documents come into existence, when and how they are deployed 
on the thing or associated with multiple things is another question. We 
most certainly do not want to end up with a "signing fool" that does not 
add value to the level of confidence (I am quoting Ned Smith here).

This has to be fleshed out explicitly for each scenario and the parts 
that are reused in every scenario should get special attention in the 
upcoming RATS architecture draft.

Identifying claims aggregated in an identity document most certainly can 
include device characteristics, public key(s), or claims about the 
intended functions and capabilities of the thing. Claims can even 
originate from Claimants that are not the thing itself, but external 
entities providing an assertion (e.g. these things are CC-certified).

All different composites of identifying claims have a specific shared 
intend in this context though, I think: expressing Attestation 
Provenance (again - one for one or more things of the same kind). And 
all of them originate from Claimants and therefore use a root of trust 
of measurement, I think.

That said, establishing trustworthy knowledge about attestation 
provenance is only the first step and provides the foundation for more 
complex attestation procedures. In any case, this seem to be required by 
every scenario that was highlighted so far and therefore will most 
certainly be covered in a deliverable.

IHTH,

Henk


On 10/15/2018 12:22 PM, Jeremy O'Donoghue wrote:
> On 12 Oct 2018, at 14:33, Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr 
> <mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr>> wrote:
>> The "Problem Statement" continues as follows:
>>
>> (2) Today, there is no common, standard way for Relying Parties to 
>> know the provenance and characteristics of a device (e.g., an end-user 
>> device,
>> platform or endpoint, servers, IoT devices, device subsystems and 
>> sub-modules) that may be requesting services.
>>
>> Knowing the provenance of the device is not always necessary. What is 
>> important is to know that a specific set of functions is (securely) 
>> supported by the device.
>> There already exists a common way to know the characteristics of a 
>> device by issuing to the device a public key certificate which will 
>> only be issued to the device
>> if it fulfills an expected set of functionalities. In such a case a 
>> syntax for a trusted claim sets**is not needed.
>>
> This is indeed a possible way to address the problem, but suffers from 
> challenges which come down to:
> 
> - Who issues such certificates. An option is that there is some form of 
> security certification behind this issuance otherwise it is of very 
> limited value.
> - In order to capture the wide variety of different devices (I prefer 
> "entity" here as it is more general than "device"), many different forms 
> of such certificates would be required. This ends up being much the same 
> thing as a set of claims.
> 
> Given the multiplicity of entities for which attestation might be 
> useful, it seems to me that having the entity creator/manufacturer 
> provide a set of claims which can be verified is more flexible than 
> requiring a certificate. It seems likely to me that where a formal 
> security certification is needed there will be a certificate issued by 
> the Certifying Body as one of the claims about an entity, but I can 
> think of many cases (supply chain management, to take just one example) 
> where provenance is by far the most useful information.
> 
> I'm not in favour of changes to the charter in this direction.
>>
>> The simplest cases should also be part of the framework.
>>
>> Note: I personally appreciate that privacy is an aspect that 
>> will/should be taken into consideration.
>>
>> Denis
>>
>>> As with the earlier draft, there are many references to verify and
>>> verifier in the lead up to the deliverable but no deliverables describing
>>> verification rules. I'd like to see rules in one of these documents and
>>> think it worth citing in the deliverables. Are bindings to certificate
>>> management protocols out of scope?
>>>
>>> On 10/11/18, 9:49 AM, "RATS on behalf of Henk Birkholz"
>>> <rats-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>  wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> sorry for the delay. Please find an updated charter proposal here:
>>>>
>>>>> https://github.com/ietf-rats/charter/blob/RC2/ietf-rats-charter.md
>>>> The BoF proponents tried to merge all comments and proposals on
>>>> keystores, existing solutions, provenance & device characteristics, etc
>>>> that were raised on the list - and align them in homogeneous fashion.
>>>>
>>>> This draft is intended to focus the discussion and improve the wording.
>>>>
>>>> Viele Grüße,
>>>>
>>>> Henk
>>>>
>>>> On 10/06/2018 08:23 AM, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>>>>> Hi Henk,
>>>>>
>>>>> Bangkok IETF is getting close, will you be able to update the charter
>>>>> for the attestation BoF to properly include EAT?  I sent you some text
>>>>> that just needs to be pasted along with some comments. It doesn’t look
>>>>> like there’s been any updates.
>>>>>
>>>>> LL
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> RATS mailing list
>>>> RATS@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> EAT mailing list
>>> EAT@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> EAT mailing list
>> EAT@ietf.org <mailto:EAT@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> EAT mailing list
> EAT@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat
> 


From nobody Mon Oct 15 08:53:35 2018
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Subject: [Rats] Update to the refactored charter draft (including recent updates)
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Hi all,

most of the recent comments and some that we missed are now incorporated 
into the charter text. If anyone feels misrepresented or totally 
misunderstood even, please do not hesitate to comment.

> https://github.com/ietf-rats/charter/blob/RC2/ietf-rats-charter.md

Viele Grüße,

Henk


From nobody Mon Oct 15 08:59:39 2018
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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>, Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr>
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Thread-Topic: [EAT] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Rats] Attestation BoF charter updates?
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Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 15:59:35 +0000
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References: <5D773C02-5083-4B10-A705-782E28FD8ADB@island-resort.com> <f84515dd-2e1a-7e66-7c23-b16f8f425d2a@sit.fraunhofer.de> <D7E5069D.C2E65%carl@redhoundsoftware.com> <c72a3b6c-88f2-d452-96be-947a4be1d9c8@free.fr> <73EF502E-B68C-4106-8311-4897B4F2DF8C@qti.qualcomm.com> <b6c9ff4a-cc35-8175-3294-4e6ec366409f@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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From: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
To: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>, Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr>
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Thread-Topic: [EAT] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Rats] Attestation BoF charter updates?
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Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 17:49:35 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/XoLyo_GcmdKcbzxrrQCeh5wjCRk>
Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT] [EXTERNAL] Re:  Attestation BoF charter updates?
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To: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>
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From: Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr>
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Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 21:30:14 +0200
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT] [EXTERNAL] Re:  Attestation BoF charter updates?
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> Here are my 5 cents on the term 'identity'.
>
> I have been working on identity management for many years (partially because of my OAuth co-chair role) and I have noticed that the use of the term "identity" tends to confuse more than it helps (even more so when the term is applied to devices and software rather than humans).
>
> I believe we could get away with describing what we want without ever using the term.
>
> In this context I would argue that we are about identifying different components, such as hardware and software.
>
> Ciao
> Hannes

+1

The single sentence where currently the word "identity" is being used is:

    As a result, in 2018, a Relying Party would be unable to tell if a
    device is trying to mimic the identity of another device or some of
    its characteristics.

This could be rephrased as:

    As a result, in 2018, there is no common way allowing Relying
    Parties to tell if some data originates from a trustworthy device
    designed to support a specific set of operations/functionalities or
    not .

The text currently states:

    2) In 2018, there are no common, standard ways for Relying Parties
    to know the provenance and characteristics of a device
    (e.g., an end-user device, platform or endpoint, servers, IoT
    devices, device subsystems and sub-modules) that may be requesting
    services.

As already said on this list, knowing the provenance of a device is not 
always necessary (but may be useful in some cases).
The key point is to know the characteristics of the device.

This could be rephrased as:

    2) In 2018, there are no common, standard ways for Relying Parties
    to know the characteristics of a device (e.g., an end-user device,
    platform or endpoint,
    servers, IoT devices, device subsystems and sub-modules) that may be
    requesting services.

Probably a typo in the following sentence:

    (1) A standardized way to establish a sufficient level of confidence
    that some data originates from a trustworthy device (e.g.,
    platforms, servers,
    user endpoints, IoT devices, device subsystems or subcomponents)
    designed to support a specific set of operations/functionalities /a
    communication partner is a trustworthy endpoint./

The end of the sentence (i.e. "a communication partner is a trustworthy 
endpoint.") looks odd and should probably be deleted.

The goals are currently limited to the definition of the content of the 
Assertions. A key point is the way to verify/validate an Attestation.
The more complex is the content of an Attestation, the more complex it 
will be to validate it by a RP.

A framework for validating the Attestations should also be part of the 
charter.

Denis


Note:At this stage, I still see no text to address both simple cases 
(e.g. FIDO attestations) and more complex cases.

>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: EAT <eat-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Smith, Ned
> Sent: Monday, October 15, 2018 9:00 AM
> To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>; rats@ietf.org; Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>; Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr>
> Cc: eat@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [EAT] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Rats] Attestation BoF charter updates?
>
> I agree with Henk's observation that there is opportunity to find common ground on identity as identity can be a collection of attributes, that if signed, becomes a set of verifiable claims (about identity attributes). Attestation has a similar structure in that it consists of a set of attributes, that if signed becomes a set of verifiable claims. The main difference between identity and attestation attributes is whether the attribute semantically relate to trust (vs. identity). For example, claims of security certification compliance resonates as attestation.
>
> It may be possible to combine a set of attestation attributes in such a way that the combination uniquely identifies an entity. But that doesn't make it an identity system per se and shouldn't cause a conflict in charter goals with respect to other identity focused efforts in IETF.
>
> Also, inclusion of attributes that don't have semantics that reasonably relate to trust should not be of interest to a working group focused on attestation.
>
> -Ned
>
> ﻿On 10/15/18, 3:53 PM, "EAT on behalf of Henk Birkholz" <eat-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
>
>      Hi Jeremy & Denis,
>
>      all these points of view have merit, I think.
>
>      Please have a look at these quotes:
>
>      > knowing the provenance of the device
>
>      > having the entity creator/manufacturer provide a set of claims which can be verified
>
>      > to know the characteristics of a device by issuing to the device a public key certificate which will only be issued to the device if it fulfills an expected set of functionalities.
>
>      To me, these descriptions seem to have different intents, scope or
>      audience and require most certainly different work-flows, but
>      semantically and in consequence representation-wise they also seem quite
>      related.
>
>      If you think of an identity document as a set of claims (potentially
>      including a public key), that is signed and that can match one or more
>      things, maybe all three types highlighted above are actually covered by
>      the same identity document concept?
>
>      With respect to identity documents, I think it is safe so say that we
>      can find common ground here rather easily. That said, the way how these
>      identity documents come into existence, when and how they are deployed
>      on the thing or associated with multiple things is another question. We
>      most certainly do not want to end up with a "signing fool" that does not
>      add value to the level of confidence (I am quoting Ned Smith here).
>
>      This has to be fleshed out explicitly for each scenario and the parts
>      that are reused in every scenario should get special attention in the
>      upcoming RATS architecture draft.
>
>      Identifying claims aggregated in an identity document most certainly can
>      include device characteristics, public key(s), or claims about the
>      intended functions and capabilities of the thing. Claims can even
>      originate from Claimants that are not the thing itself, but external
>      entities providing an assertion (e.g. these things are CC-certified).
>
>      All different composites of identifying claims have a specific shared
>      intend in this context though, I think: expressing Attestation
>      Provenance (again - one for one or more things of the same kind). And
>      all of them originate from Claimants and therefore use a root of trust
>      of measurement, I think.
>
>      That said, establishing trustworthy knowledge about attestation
>      provenance is only the first step and provides the foundation for more
>      complex attestation procedures. In any case, this seem to be required by
>      every scenario that was highlighted so far and therefore will most
>      certainly be covered in a deliverable.
>
>      IHTH,
>
>      Henk
>
>
>      On 10/15/2018 12:22 PM, Jeremy O'Donoghue wrote:
>      > On 12 Oct 2018, at 14:33, Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr
>      > <mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr>> wrote:
>      >> The "Problem Statement" continues as follows:
>      >>
>      >> (2) Today, there is no common, standard way for Relying Parties to
>      >> know the provenance and characteristics of a device (e.g., an end-user
>      >> device,
>      >> platform or endpoint, servers, IoT devices, device subsystems and
>      >> sub-modules) that may be requesting services.
>      >>
>      >> Knowing the provenance of the device is not always necessary. What is
>      >> important is to know that a specific set of functions is (securely)
>      >> supported by the device.
>      >> There already exists a common way to know the characteristics of a
>      >> device by issuing to the device a public key certificate which will
>      >> only be issued to the device
>      >> if it fulfills an expected set of functionalities. In such a case a
>      >> syntax for a trusted claim sets**is not needed.
>      >>
>      > This is indeed a possible way to address the problem, but suffers from
>      > challenges which come down to:
>      >
>      > - Who issues such certificates. An option is that there is some form of
>      > security certification behind this issuance otherwise it is of very
>      > limited value.
>      > - In order to capture the wide variety of different devices (I prefer
>      > "entity" here as it is more general than "device"), many different forms
>      > of such certificates would be required. This ends up being much the same
>      > thing as a set of claims.
>      >
>      > Given the multiplicity of entities for which attestation might be
>      > useful, it seems to me that having the entity creator/manufacturer
>      > provide a set of claims which can be verified is more flexible than
>      > requiring a certificate. It seems likely to me that where a formal
>      > security certification is needed there will be a certificate issued by
>      > the Certifying Body as one of the claims about an entity, but I can
>      > think of many cases (supply chain management, to take just one example)
>      > where provenance is by far the most useful information.
>      >
>      > I'm not in favour of changes to the charter in this direction.
>      >>
>      >> The simplest cases should also be part of the framework.
>      >>
>      >> Note: I personally appreciate that privacy is an aspect that
>      >> will/should be taken into consideration.
>      >>
>      >> Denis
>      >>
>      >>> As with the earlier draft, there are many references to verify and
>      >>> verifier in the lead up to the deliverable but no deliverables describing
>      >>> verification rules. I'd like to see rules in one of these documents and
>      >>> think it worth citing in the deliverables. Are bindings to certificate
>      >>> management protocols out of scope?
>      >>>
>      >>> On 10/11/18, 9:49 AM, "RATS on behalf of Henk Birkholz"
>      >>> <rats-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>  wrote:
>      >>>
>      >>>> Hi all,
>      >>>>
>      >>>> sorry for the delay. Please find an updated charter proposal here:
>      >>>>
>      >>>>> https://github.com/ietf-rats/charter/blob/RC2/ietf-rats-charter.md
>      >>>> The BoF proponents tried to merge all comments and proposals on
>      >>>> keystores, existing solutions, provenance & device characteristics, etc
>      >>>> that were raised on the list - and align them in homogeneous fashion.
>      >>>>
>      >>>> This draft is intended to focus the discussion and improve the wording.
>      >>>>
>      >>>> Viele Grüße,
>      >>>>
>      >>>> Henk
>      >>>>
>      >>>> On 10/06/2018 08:23 AM, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>      >>>>> Hi Henk,
>      >>>>>
>      >>>>> Bangkok IETF is getting close, will you be able to update the charter
>      >>>>> for the attestation BoF to properly include EAT?  I sent you some text
>      >>>>> that just needs to be pasted along with some comments. It doesn’t look
>      >>>>> like there’s been any updates.
>      >>>>>
>      >>>>> LL
>      >>>>>
>      >>>> _______________________________________________
>      >>>> RATS mailing list
>      >>>> RATS@ietf.org
>      >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>      >>> _______________________________________________
>      >>> EAT mailing list
>      >>> EAT@ietf.org
>      >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat
>      >>
>      >>
>      >> _______________________________________________
>      >> EAT mailing list
>      >> EAT@ietf.org <mailto:EAT@ietf.org>
>      >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      > _______________________________________________
>      > EAT mailing list
>      > EAT@ietf.org
>      > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat
>      >
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<html>
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    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:VI1PR0801MB211230882A5B0D594D66DCFDFAFD0@VI1PR0801MB2112.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com">
      <pre wrap="">Here are my 5 cents on the term 'identity'.

I have been working on identity management for many years (partially because of my OAuth co-chair role) and I have noticed that the use of the term "identity" tends to confuse more than it helps (even more so when the term is applied to devices and software rather than humans).

I believe we could get away with describing what we want without ever using the term.

In this context I would argue that we are about identifying different components, such as hardware and software.

Ciao
Hannes</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <font face="Arial">+1<br>
      <br>
    </font>
    <p
style="margin-top:6.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><font
        face="Arial">The single sentence where currently the word
        "identity" is being used is:</font></p>
    <font face="Arial"></font>
    <blockquote>
      <p
style="margin-top:6.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><font
          face="Arial">As a result, in 2018, a Relying Party would be
          unable to tell if a
          device is trying to <span
            style="background:yellow;mso-highlight:yellow">mimic
            the identity of another device or some of its
            characteristics.</span></font></p>
    </blockquote>
    <font face="Arial">
      This could be rephrased as:<br>
    </font>
    <blockquote><font face="Arial">As a result, in 2018, there is no
        common way allowing Relying Parties to tell if some data
        originates from a trustworthy device <br>
        designed to support a specific set of operations/functionalities
        or not .<br>
      </font></blockquote>
    <font face="Arial">The text currently states:<br>
    </font>
    <blockquote>
      <p
style="margin-top:6.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><font
          face="Arial">2) In 2018, there are no common, standard ways
          for Relying Parties <span
            style="background:yellow;mso-highlight:yellow">to know the
            provenance and
            characteristics of a device</span> <br>
        </font>
        <font face="Arial">(e.g., an end-user device, platform or
          endpoint, servers, IoT devices, device subsystems and
          sub-modules) that may be
          requesting services.</font></p>
    </blockquote>
    <font face="Arial">
    </font>
    <p
style="margin-top:6.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><font
        face="Arial">As already said on this list, knowing the
        provenance of a device is not always necessary (but may be
        useful in some cases). <br>
        The key point is to know the characteristics of the device.</font></p>
    <font face="Arial">
    </font>
    <p
style="margin-top:6.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><font
        face="Arial">This could be rephrased as:</font></p>
    <blockquote>
      <p
style="margin-top:6.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><font
          face="Arial">2) In 2018, there are no common, standard ways
          for Relying Parties to know the characteristics of a device
          (e.g., an end-user device, platform or endpoint,<br>
          servers, IoT devices, device subsystems and sub-modules) that
          may be requesting services.<br>
        </font></p>
    </blockquote>
    <p
style="margin-top:6.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><font
        face="Arial">Probably a typo in the following sentence:</font></p>
    <blockquote>
      <p
style="margin-top:6.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><font
          face="Arial">(1) A standardized way to establish a sufficient
          level of confidence that some data originates from a
          trustworthy device (e.g., platforms, servers, <br>
          user endpoints, IoT devices, device subsystems or
          subcomponents) designed to support a specific set of
          operations/functionalities <i>a communication partner is a
            trustworthy endpoint.</i> <br>
        </font></p>
    </blockquote>
    <p
style="margin-top:6.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><font
        face="Arial">The end of the sentence (i.e. "a communication
        partner is a trustworthy endpoint.") looks odd and should
        probably be deleted.</font></p>
    <p
style="margin-top:6.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><font
        face="Arial">The goals are currently limited to the <span
          style="font-size: 12pt;" lang="EN-US">definition of the
          content of the Assertions. </span>A key point is the way to
        verify/validate an Attestation. <br>
        The more complex is the content of an Attestation, the more
        complex it will be to validate it by a RP. <br>
      </font></p>
    <p
style="margin-top:6.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><font
        face="Arial">A framework for validating the Attestations should
        also be part of the charter.</font></p>
    <p
style="margin-top:6.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><font
        face="Arial">Denis<br>
      </font></p>
    <font face="Arial"><br>
      Note:<font face="Arial"> At this stage, I still see no text to
        address both simple cases (e.g. FIDO attestations) and more
        complex cases.<br>
        <br>
      </font></font>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:VI1PR0801MB211230882A5B0D594D66DCFDFAFD0@VI1PR0801MB2112.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com">
      <pre wrap="">

-----Original Message-----
From: EAT <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org">&lt;eat-bounces@ietf.org&gt;</a> On Behalf Of Smith, Ned
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2018 9:00 AM
To: Henk Birkholz <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de">&lt;henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de&gt;</a>; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:rats@ietf.org">rats@ietf.org</a>; Jeremy O'Donoghue <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com">&lt;jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com&gt;</a>; Denis <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr">&lt;denis.ietf@free.fr&gt;</a>
Cc: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:eat@ietf.org">eat@ietf.org</a>
Subject: Re: [EAT] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Rats] Attestation BoF charter updates?

I agree with Henk's observation that there is opportunity to find common ground on identity as identity can be a collection of attributes, that if signed, becomes a set of verifiable claims (about identity attributes). Attestation has a similar structure in that it consists of a set of attributes, that if signed becomes a set of verifiable claims. The main difference between identity and attestation attributes is whether the attribute semantically relate to trust (vs. identity). For example, claims of security certification compliance resonates as attestation.

It may be possible to combine a set of attestation attributes in such a way that the combination uniquely identifies an entity. But that doesn't make it an identity system per se and shouldn't cause a conflict in charter goals with respect to other identity focused efforts in IETF.

Also, inclusion of attributes that don't have semantics that reasonably relate to trust should not be of interest to a working group focused on attestation.

-Ned

﻿On 10/15/18, 3:53 PM, "EAT on behalf of Henk Birkholz" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.orgonbehalfofhenk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de">&lt;eat-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de&gt;</a> wrote:

    Hi Jeremy &amp; Denis,

    all these points of view have merit, I think.

    Please have a look at these quotes:

    &gt; knowing the provenance of the device

    &gt; having the entity creator/manufacturer provide a set of claims which can be verified

    &gt; to know the characteristics of a device by issuing to the device a public key certificate which will only be issued to the device if it fulfills an expected set of functionalities.

    To me, these descriptions seem to have different intents, scope or
    audience and require most certainly different work-flows, but
    semantically and in consequence representation-wise they also seem quite
    related.

    If you think of an identity document as a set of claims (potentially
    including a public key), that is signed and that can match one or more
    things, maybe all three types highlighted above are actually covered by
    the same identity document concept?

    With respect to identity documents, I think it is safe so say that we
    can find common ground here rather easily. That said, the way how these
    identity documents come into existence, when and how they are deployed
    on the thing or associated with multiple things is another question. We
    most certainly do not want to end up with a "signing fool" that does not
    add value to the level of confidence (I am quoting Ned Smith here).

    This has to be fleshed out explicitly for each scenario and the parts
    that are reused in every scenario should get special attention in the
    upcoming RATS architecture draft.

    Identifying claims aggregated in an identity document most certainly can
    include device characteristics, public key(s), or claims about the
    intended functions and capabilities of the thing. Claims can even
    originate from Claimants that are not the thing itself, but external
    entities providing an assertion (e.g. these things are CC-certified).

    All different composites of identifying claims have a specific shared
    intend in this context though, I think: expressing Attestation
    Provenance (again - one for one or more things of the same kind). And
    all of them originate from Claimants and therefore use a root of trust
    of measurement, I think.

    That said, establishing trustworthy knowledge about attestation
    provenance is only the first step and provides the foundation for more
    complex attestation procedures. In any case, this seem to be required by
    every scenario that was highlighted so far and therefore will most
    certainly be covered in a deliverable.

    IHTH,

    Henk


    On 10/15/2018 12:22 PM, Jeremy O'Donoghue wrote:
    &gt; On 12 Oct 2018, at 14:33, Denis <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr">&lt;denis.ietf@free.fr
    &gt;</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr">&lt;mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr&gt;</a>&gt; wrote:
    &gt;&gt; The "Problem Statement" continues as follows:
    &gt;&gt;
    &gt;&gt; (2) Today, there is no common, standard way for Relying Parties to
    &gt;&gt; know the provenance and characteristics of a device (e.g., an end-user
    &gt;&gt; device,
    &gt;&gt; platform or endpoint, servers, IoT devices, device subsystems and
    &gt;&gt; sub-modules) that may be requesting services.
    &gt;&gt;
    &gt;&gt; Knowing the provenance of the device is not always necessary. What is
    &gt;&gt; important is to know that a specific set of functions is (securely)
    &gt;&gt; supported by the device.
    &gt;&gt; There already exists a common way to know the characteristics of a
    &gt;&gt; device by issuing to the device a public key certificate which will
    &gt;&gt; only be issued to the device
    &gt;&gt; if it fulfills an expected set of functionalities. In such a case a
    &gt;&gt; syntax for a trusted claim sets**is not needed.
    &gt;&gt;
    &gt; This is indeed a possible way to address the problem, but suffers from
    &gt; challenges which come down to:
    &gt;
    &gt; - Who issues such certificates. An option is that there is some form of
    &gt; security certification behind this issuance otherwise it is of very
    &gt; limited value.
    &gt; - In order to capture the wide variety of different devices (I prefer
    &gt; "entity" here as it is more general than "device"), many different forms
    &gt; of such certificates would be required. This ends up being much the same
    &gt; thing as a set of claims.
    &gt;
    &gt; Given the multiplicity of entities for which attestation might be
    &gt; useful, it seems to me that having the entity creator/manufacturer
    &gt; provide a set of claims which can be verified is more flexible than
    &gt; requiring a certificate. It seems likely to me that where a formal
    &gt; security certification is needed there will be a certificate issued by
    &gt; the Certifying Body as one of the claims about an entity, but I can
    &gt; think of many cases (supply chain management, to take just one example)
    &gt; where provenance is by far the most useful information.
    &gt;
    &gt; I'm not in favour of changes to the charter in this direction.
    &gt;&gt;
    &gt;&gt; The simplest cases should also be part of the framework.
    &gt;&gt;
    &gt;&gt; Note: I personally appreciate that privacy is an aspect that
    &gt;&gt; will/should be taken into consideration.
    &gt;&gt;
    &gt;&gt; Denis
    &gt;&gt;
    &gt;&gt;&gt; As with the earlier draft, there are many references to verify and
    &gt;&gt;&gt; verifier in the lead up to the deliverable but no deliverables describing
    &gt;&gt;&gt; verification rules. I'd like to see rules in one of these documents and
    &gt;&gt;&gt; think it worth citing in the deliverables. Are bindings to certificate
    &gt;&gt;&gt; management protocols out of scope?
    &gt;&gt;&gt;
    &gt;&gt;&gt; On 10/11/18, 9:49 AM, "RATS on behalf of Henk Birkholz"
    &gt;&gt;&gt; <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.orgonbehalfofhenk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de">&lt;rats-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de&gt;</a>  wrote:
    &gt;&gt;&gt;
    &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi all,
    &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
    &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; sorry for the delay. Please find an updated charter proposal here:
    &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
    &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://github.com/ietf-rats/charter/blob/RC2/ietf-rats-charter.md">https://github.com/ietf-rats/charter/blob/RC2/ietf-rats-charter.md</a>
    &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; The BoF proponents tried to merge all comments and proposals on
    &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; keystores, existing solutions, provenance &amp; device characteristics, etc
    &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; that were raised on the list - and align them in homogeneous fashion.
    &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
    &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; This draft is intended to focus the discussion and improve the wording.
    &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
    &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Viele Grüße,
    &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
    &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Henk
    &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
    &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On 10/06/2018 08:23 AM, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
    &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi Henk,
    &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
    &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Bangkok IETF is getting close, will you be able to update the charter
    &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; for the attestation BoF to properly include EAT?  I sent you some text
    &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; that just needs to be pasted along with some comments. It doesn’t look
    &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; like there’s been any updates.
    &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
    &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; LL
    &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
    &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________
    &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; RATS mailing list
    &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:RATS@ietf.org">RATS@ietf.org</a>
    &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats</a>
    &gt;&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________
    &gt;&gt;&gt; EAT mailing list
    &gt;&gt;&gt; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:EAT@ietf.org">EAT@ietf.org</a>
    &gt;&gt;&gt; <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat</a>
    &gt;&gt;
    &gt;&gt;
    &gt;&gt; _______________________________________________
    &gt;&gt; EAT mailing list
    &gt;&gt; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:EAT@ietf.org">EAT@ietf.org</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:EAT@ietf.org">&lt;mailto:EAT@ietf.org&gt;</a>
    &gt;&gt; <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat</a>
    &gt;
    &gt;
    &gt;
    &gt; _______________________________________________
    &gt; EAT mailing list
    &gt; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:EAT@ietf.org">EAT@ietf.org</a>
    &gt; <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat</a>
    &gt;

    _______________________________________________
    EAT mailing list
    <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:EAT@ietf.org">EAT@ietf.org</a>
    <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat</a>


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From nobody Tue Oct 16 05:25:04 2018
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From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT] [EXTERNAL] Re: Attestation BoF charter updates?
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Hello Giridhar,

I totally agree that attestation procedures do not always use network 
protocols as conveyance methods. In a composite device, e.g. a network 
equipment chassis, there can be a component hierarchy in which each 
component can be associated with an attester role and/or verifier role; 
enabling (mutual) attestation between each component/sub-component 
relationship using various kinds of interconnects (and none of them have 
to be IP). Keeping that in mind when designing data models and 
corresponding serializations is important. For remote attestation via 
network protocols it might not be the most important thing, though.

There are most certainly "on behalf" roles, provided that there is a 
"trusted path" relationship (quoting orange book here) via which the 
attestation procedure could be behave like a local one.
I am not sure, if I see a "verifiers on behalf of a remote relying 
party" scenario, but in general, I'd agree with the concept.

In summary, if the attester and the verifier are connected via a 
"trusted path" then it is essentially local attestation.

Unfortunately, you issued the pull request on master, the current 
version is in the RC2 branch:

> https://github.com/ietf-rats/charter/blob/RC2/ietf-rats-charter.md

We are currently trimming the text, refactoring the content by using 
more generic terminology, and cut out about half of the content (wrt to 
the master branch) in order to segregate problem statements and goals 
into phases. The current version referenced above is intended to be 
become phase one.

Viele Grüße,

Henk

On 10/15/2018 09:33 PM, Giridhar Mandyam wrote:
> Sorry to switch topics.
> 
> Just posted my requested changes at https://github.com/ietf-rats/charter/pull/1.
> 
> 2 areas to consider:
> 
> a) Many resource-constrained devices will not support Internet Connectivity.  This does not mean that remote attestation is not possible.  It just means that this effort will be more broadly applicable if an interoperable format for 'Attestation Evidence' results that can be conveyed over multiple protocols, not just the internet.  EAT was designed with this goal in mind.
> 
> b) Local attestation is more than just on-device.  We have seen gateways in the market that allow for remote administration of devices in a local network that may only communicate via short-range protocols such as Bluetooth or Zigbee.  Such gateways may very well also serve as verifiers on behalf of a remote relying party.
> 
> -Giri Mandyam
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: EAT <eat-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Hannes Tschofenig
> Sent: Monday, October 15, 2018 10:50 AM
> To: Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com>; Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>; rats@ietf.org; Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>; Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr>
> Cc: eat@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [EAT] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Rats] Attestation BoF charter updates?
> 
> Here are my 5 cents on the term 'identity'.
> 
> I have been working on identity management for many years (partially because of my OAuth co-chair role) and I have noticed that the use of the term "identity" tends to confuse more than it helps (even more so when the term is applied to devices and software rather than humans).
> 
> I believe we could get away with describing what we want without ever using the term.
> 
> In this context I would argue that we are about identifying different components, such as hardware and software.
> 
> Ciao
> Hannes
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: EAT <eat-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Smith, Ned
> Sent: Monday, October 15, 2018 9:00 AM
> To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>; rats@ietf.org; Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>; Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr>
> Cc: eat@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [EAT] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Rats] Attestation BoF charter updates?
> 
> I agree with Henk's observation that there is opportunity to find common ground on identity as identity can be a collection of attributes, that if signed, becomes a set of verifiable claims (about identity attributes). Attestation has a similar structure in that it consists of a set of attributes, that if signed becomes a set of verifiable claims. The main difference between identity and attestation attributes is whether the attribute semantically relate to trust (vs. identity). For example, claims of security certification compliance resonates as attestation.
> 
> It may be possible to combine a set of attestation attributes in such a way that the combination uniquely identifies an entity. But that doesn't make it an identity system per se and shouldn't cause a conflict in charter goals with respect to other identity focused efforts in IETF.
> 
> Also, inclusion of attributes that don't have semantics that reasonably relate to trust should not be of interest to a working group focused on attestation.
> 
> -Ned
> 
> ﻿On 10/15/18, 3:53 PM, "EAT on behalf of Henk Birkholz" <eat-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
> 
>      Hi Jeremy & Denis,
> 
>      all these points of view have merit, I think.
> 
>      Please have a look at these quotes:
> 
>      > knowing the provenance of the device
> 
>      > having the entity creator/manufacturer provide a set of claims which can be verified
> 
>      > to know the characteristics of a device by issuing to the device a public key certificate which will only be issued to the device if it fulfills an expected set of functionalities.
> 
>      To me, these descriptions seem to have different intents, scope or
>      audience and require most certainly different work-flows, but
>      semantically and in consequence representation-wise they also seem quite
>      related.
> 
>      If you think of an identity document as a set of claims (potentially
>      including a public key), that is signed and that can match one or more
>      things, maybe all three types highlighted above are actually covered by
>      the same identity document concept?
> 
>      With respect to identity documents, I think it is safe so say that we
>      can find common ground here rather easily. That said, the way how these
>      identity documents come into existence, when and how they are deployed
>      on the thing or associated with multiple things is another question. We
>      most certainly do not want to end up with a "signing fool" that does not
>      add value to the level of confidence (I am quoting Ned Smith here).
> 
>      This has to be fleshed out explicitly for each scenario and the parts
>      that are reused in every scenario should get special attention in the
>      upcoming RATS architecture draft.
> 
>      Identifying claims aggregated in an identity document most certainly can
>      include device characteristics, public key(s), or claims about the
>      intended functions and capabilities of the thing. Claims can even
>      originate from Claimants that are not the thing itself, but external
>      entities providing an assertion (e.g. these things are CC-certified).
> 
>      All different composites of identifying claims have a specific shared
>      intend in this context though, I think: expressing Attestation
>      Provenance (again - one for one or more things of the same kind). And
>      all of them originate from Claimants and therefore use a root of trust
>      of measurement, I think.
> 
>      That said, establishing trustworthy knowledge about attestation
>      provenance is only the first step and provides the foundation for more
>      complex attestation procedures. In any case, this seem to be required by
>      every scenario that was highlighted so far and therefore will most
>      certainly be covered in a deliverable.
> 
>      IHTH,
> 
>      Henk
> 
> 
>      On 10/15/2018 12:22 PM, Jeremy O'Donoghue wrote:
>      > On 12 Oct 2018, at 14:33, Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr
>      > <mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr>> wrote:
>      >> The "Problem Statement" continues as follows:
>      >>
>      >> (2) Today, there is no common, standard way for Relying Parties to
>      >> know the provenance and characteristics of a device (e.g., an end-user
>      >> device,
>      >> platform or endpoint, servers, IoT devices, device subsystems and
>      >> sub-modules) that may be requesting services.
>      >>
>      >> Knowing the provenance of the device is not always necessary. What is
>      >> important is to know that a specific set of functions is (securely)
>      >> supported by the device.
>      >> There already exists a common way to know the characteristics of a
>      >> device by issuing to the device a public key certificate which will
>      >> only be issued to the device
>      >> if it fulfills an expected set of functionalities. In such a case a
>      >> syntax for a trusted claim sets**is not needed.
>      >>
>      > This is indeed a possible way to address the problem, but suffers from
>      > challenges which come down to:
>      >
>      > - Who issues such certificates. An option is that there is some form of
>      > security certification behind this issuance otherwise it is of very
>      > limited value.
>      > - In order to capture the wide variety of different devices (I prefer
>      > "entity" here as it is more general than "device"), many different forms
>      > of such certificates would be required. This ends up being much the same
>      > thing as a set of claims.
>      >
>      > Given the multiplicity of entities for which attestation might be
>      > useful, it seems to me that having the entity creator/manufacturer
>      > provide a set of claims which can be verified is more flexible than
>      > requiring a certificate. It seems likely to me that where a formal
>      > security certification is needed there will be a certificate issued by
>      > the Certifying Body as one of the claims about an entity, but I can
>      > think of many cases (supply chain management, to take just one example)
>      > where provenance is by far the most useful information.
>      >
>      > I'm not in favour of changes to the charter in this direction.
>      >>
>      >> The simplest cases should also be part of the framework.
>      >>
>      >> Note: I personally appreciate that privacy is an aspect that
>      >> will/should be taken into consideration.
>      >>
>      >> Denis
>      >>
>      >>> As with the earlier draft, there are many references to verify and
>      >>> verifier in the lead up to the deliverable but no deliverables describing
>      >>> verification rules. I'd like to see rules in one of these documents and
>      >>> think it worth citing in the deliverables. Are bindings to certificate
>      >>> management protocols out of scope?
>      >>>
>      >>> On 10/11/18, 9:49 AM, "RATS on behalf of Henk Birkholz"
>      >>> <rats-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>  wrote:
>      >>>
>      >>>> Hi all,
>      >>>>
>      >>>> sorry for the delay. Please find an updated charter proposal here:
>      >>>>
>      >>>>> https://github.com/ietf-rats/charter/blob/RC2/ietf-rats-charter.md
>      >>>> The BoF proponents tried to merge all comments and proposals on
>      >>>> keystores, existing solutions, provenance & device characteristics, etc
>      >>>> that were raised on the list - and align them in homogeneous fashion.
>      >>>>
>      >>>> This draft is intended to focus the discussion and improve the wording.
>      >>>>
>      >>>> Viele Grüße,
>      >>>>
>      >>>> Henk
>      >>>>
>      >>>> On 10/06/2018 08:23 AM, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>      >>>>> Hi Henk,
>      >>>>>
>      >>>>> Bangkok IETF is getting close, will you be able to update the charter
>      >>>>> for the attestation BoF to properly include EAT?  I sent you some text
>      >>>>> that just needs to be pasted along with some comments. It doesn’t look
>      >>>>> like there’s been any updates.
>      >>>>>
>      >>>>> LL
>      >>>>>
>      >>>> _______________________________________________
>      >>>> RATS mailing list
>      >>>> RATS@ietf.org
>      >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>      >>> _______________________________________________
>      >>> EAT mailing list
>      >>> EAT@ietf.org
>      >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat
>      >>
>      >>
>      >> _______________________________________________
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To: Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr>, Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>,  "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, "Jeremy O'Donoghue" <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
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From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT] [EXTERNAL] Re:  Attestation BoF charter updates?
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Hi Denis,

I just pulled in your first proposal as an example in paragraph five.

I am a bit concerned to drop the intent of establishing a believable 
context about attestation provenance. As you referred, for example, to 
FIDO - I think that is the intent there, is it not? Laurence proposed 
the terms "provenance and characteristics" as high level terms and all 
proponents agreed to use these. If this is a relevant disabler for a 
specific usage scenario, we might have to reconsider that.

We cut out differentiating simple cases and more complex cases to reduce 
the complexity of the charter text for now. If that is 
counterproductive, we would like to get more input on that, please.

Viele Grüße,

Henk

On 10/15/2018 09:30 PM, Denis wrote:
>> Here are my 5 cents on the term 'identity'.
>>
>> I have been working on identity management for many years (partially because of my OAuth co-chair role) and I have noticed that the use of the term "identity" tends to confuse more than it helps (even more so when the term is applied to devices and software rather than humans).
>>
>> I believe we could get away with describing what we want without ever using the term.
>>
>> In this context I would argue that we are about identifying different components, such as hardware and software.
>>
>> Ciao
>> Hannes
> 
> +1
> 
> The single sentence where currently the word "identity" is being used is:
> 
>     As a result, in 2018, a Relying Party would be unable to tell if a
>     device is trying to mimic the identity of another device or some of
>     its characteristics.
> 
> This could be rephrased as:
> 
>     As a result, in 2018, there is no common way allowing Relying
>     Parties to tell if some data originates from a trustworthy device
>     designed to support a specific set of operations/functionalities or
>     not .
> 
> The text currently states:
> 
>     2) In 2018, there are no common, standard ways for Relying Parties
>     to know the provenance and characteristics of a device
>     (e.g., an end-user device, platform or endpoint, servers, IoT
>     devices, device subsystems and sub-modules) that may be requesting
>     services.
> 
> As already said on this list, knowing the provenance of a device is not 
> always necessary (but may be useful in some cases).
> The key point is to know the characteristics of the device.
> 
> This could be rephrased as:
> 
>     2) In 2018, there are no common, standard ways for Relying Parties
>     to know the characteristics of a device (e.g., an end-user device,
>     platform or endpoint,
>     servers, IoT devices, device subsystems and sub-modules) that may be
>     requesting services.
> 
> Probably a typo in the following sentence:
> 
>     (1) A standardized way to establish a sufficient level of confidence
>     that some data originates from a trustworthy device (e.g.,
>     platforms, servers,
>     user endpoints, IoT devices, device subsystems or subcomponents)
>     designed to support a specific set of operations/functionalities /a
>     communication partner is a trustworthy endpoint./
> 
> The end of the sentence (i.e. "a communication partner is a trustworthy 
> endpoint.") looks odd and should probably be deleted.
> 
> The goals are currently limited to the definition of the content of the 
> Assertions. A key point is the way to verify/validate an Attestation.
> The more complex is the content of an Attestation, the more complex it 
> will be to validate it by a RP.
> 
> A framework for validating the Attestations should also be part of the 
> charter.
> 
> Denis
> 
> 
> Note:At this stage, I still see no text to address both simple cases 
> (e.g. FIDO attestations) and more complex cases.
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: EAT<eat-bounces@ietf.org>  On Behalf Of Smith, Ned
>> Sent: Monday, October 15, 2018 9:00 AM
>> To: Henk Birkholz<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>;rats@ietf.org; Jeremy O'Donoghue<jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>; Denis<denis.ietf@free.fr>
>> Cc:eat@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [EAT] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Rats] Attestation BoF charter updates?
>>
>> I agree with Henk's observation that there is opportunity to find common ground on identity as identity can be a collection of attributes, that if signed, becomes a set of verifiable claims (about identity attributes). Attestation has a similar structure in that it consists of a set of attributes, that if signed becomes a set of verifiable claims. The main difference between identity and attestation attributes is whether the attribute semantically relate to trust (vs. identity). For example, claims of security certification compliance resonates as attestation.
>>
>> It may be possible to combine a set of attestation attributes in such a way that the combination uniquely identifies an entity. But that doesn't make it an identity system per se and shouldn't cause a conflict in charter goals with respect to other identity focused efforts in IETF.
>>
>> Also, inclusion of attributes that don't have semantics that reasonably relate to trust should not be of interest to a working group focused on attestation.
>>
>> -Ned
>>
>> ﻿On 10/15/18, 3:53 PM, "EAT on behalf of Henk Birkholz"<eat-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>  wrote:
>>
>>      Hi Jeremy & Denis,
>>
>>      all these points of view have merit, I think.
>>
>>      Please have a look at these quotes:
>>
>>      > knowing the provenance of the device
>>
>>      > having the entity creator/manufacturer provide a set of claims which can be verified
>>
>>      > to know the characteristics of a device by issuing to the device a public key certificate which will only be issued to the device if it fulfills an expected set of functionalities.
>>
>>      To me, these descriptions seem to have different intents, scope or
>>      audience and require most certainly different work-flows, but
>>      semantically and in consequence representation-wise they also seem quite
>>      related.
>>
>>      If you think of an identity document as a set of claims (potentially
>>      including a public key), that is signed and that can match one or more
>>      things, maybe all three types highlighted above are actually covered by
>>      the same identity document concept?
>>
>>      With respect to identity documents, I think it is safe so say that we
>>      can find common ground here rather easily. That said, the way how these
>>      identity documents come into existence, when and how they are deployed
>>      on the thing or associated with multiple things is another question. We
>>      most certainly do not want to end up with a "signing fool" that does not
>>      add value to the level of confidence (I am quoting Ned Smith here).
>>
>>      This has to be fleshed out explicitly for each scenario and the parts
>>      that are reused in every scenario should get special attention in the
>>      upcoming RATS architecture draft.
>>
>>      Identifying claims aggregated in an identity document most certainly can
>>      include device characteristics, public key(s), or claims about the
>>      intended functions and capabilities of the thing. Claims can even
>>      originate from Claimants that are not the thing itself, but external
>>      entities providing an assertion (e.g. these things are CC-certified).
>>
>>      All different composites of identifying claims have a specific shared
>>      intend in this context though, I think: expressing Attestation
>>      Provenance (again - one for one or more things of the same kind). And
>>      all of them originate from Claimants and therefore use a root of trust
>>      of measurement, I think.
>>
>>      That said, establishing trustworthy knowledge about attestation
>>      provenance is only the first step and provides the foundation for more
>>      complex attestation procedures. In any case, this seem to be required by
>>      every scenario that was highlighted so far and therefore will most
>>      certainly be covered in a deliverable.
>>
>>      IHTH,
>>
>>      Henk
>>
>>
>>      On 10/15/2018 12:22 PM, Jeremy O'Donoghue wrote:
>>      > On 12 Oct 2018, at 14:33, Denis<denis.ietf@free.fr >  <mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr>> wrote:
>>      >> The "Problem Statement" continues as follows:
>>      >>
>>      >> (2) Today, there is no common, standard way for Relying Parties to
>>      >> know the provenance and characteristics of a device (e.g., an end-user
>>      >> device,
>>      >> platform or endpoint, servers, IoT devices, device subsystems and
>>      >> sub-modules) that may be requesting services.
>>      >>
>>      >> Knowing the provenance of the device is not always necessary. What is
>>      >> important is to know that a specific set of functions is (securely)
>>      >> supported by the device.
>>      >> There already exists a common way to know the characteristics of a
>>      >> device by issuing to the device a public key certificate which will
>>      >> only be issued to the device
>>      >> if it fulfills an expected set of functionalities. In such a case a
>>      >> syntax for a trusted claim sets**is not needed.
>>      >>
>>      > This is indeed a possible way to address the problem, but suffers from
>>      > challenges which come down to:
>>      >
>>      > - Who issues such certificates. An option is that there is some form of
>>      > security certification behind this issuance otherwise it is of very
>>      > limited value.
>>      > - In order to capture the wide variety of different devices (I prefer
>>      > "entity" here as it is more general than "device"), many different forms
>>      > of such certificates would be required. This ends up being much the same
>>      > thing as a set of claims.
>>      >
>>      > Given the multiplicity of entities for which attestation might be
>>      > useful, it seems to me that having the entity creator/manufacturer
>>      > provide a set of claims which can be verified is more flexible than
>>      > requiring a certificate. It seems likely to me that where a formal
>>      > security certification is needed there will be a certificate issued by
>>      > the Certifying Body as one of the claims about an entity, but I can
>>      > think of many cases (supply chain management, to take just one example)
>>      > where provenance is by far the most useful information.
>>      >
>>      > I'm not in favour of changes to the charter in this direction.
>>      >>
>>      >> The simplest cases should also be part of the framework.
>>      >>
>>      >> Note: I personally appreciate that privacy is an aspect that
>>      >> will/should be taken into consideration.
>>      >>
>>      >> Denis
>>      >>
>>      >>> As with the earlier draft, there are many references to verify and
>>      >>> verifier in the lead up to the deliverable but no deliverables describing
>>      >>> verification rules. I'd like to see rules in one of these documents and
>>      >>> think it worth citing in the deliverables. Are bindings to certificate
>>      >>> management protocols out of scope?
>>      >>>
>>      >>> On 10/11/18, 9:49 AM, "RATS on behalf of Henk Birkholz"
>>      >>><rats-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>   wrote:
>>      >>>
>>      >>>> Hi all,
>>      >>>>
>>      >>>> sorry for the delay. Please find an updated charter proposal here:
>>      >>>>
>>      >>>>>https://github.com/ietf-rats/charter/blob/RC2/ietf-rats-charter.md
>>      >>>> The BoF proponents tried to merge all comments and proposals on
>>      >>>> keystores, existing solutions, provenance & device characteristics, etc
>>      >>>> that were raised on the list - and align them in homogeneous fashion.
>>      >>>>
>>      >>>> This draft is intended to focus the discussion and improve the wording.
>>      >>>>
>>      >>>> Viele Grüße,
>>      >>>>
>>      >>>> Henk
>>      >>>>
>>      >>>> On 10/06/2018 08:23 AM, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>>      >>>>> Hi Henk,
>>      >>>>>
>>      >>>>> Bangkok IETF is getting close, will you be able to update the charter
>>      >>>>> for the attestation BoF to properly include EAT?  I sent you some text
>>      >>>>> that just needs to be pasted along with some comments. It doesn’t look
>>      >>>>> like there’s been any updates.
>>      >>>>>
>>      >>>>> LL
>>      >>>>>
>>      >>>> _______________________________________________
>>      >>>> RATS mailing list
>>      >>>>RATS@ietf.org
>>      >>>>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>>      >>> _______________________________________________
>>      >>> EAT mailing list
>>      >>>EAT@ietf.org
>>      >>>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat
>>      >>
>>      >>
>>      >> _______________________________________________
>>      >> EAT mailing list
>>      >>EAT@ietf.org  <mailto:EAT@ietf.org>
>>      >>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat
>>      >
>>      >
>>      >
>>      > _______________________________________________
>>      > EAT mailing list
>>      >EAT@ietf.org
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>>      >
>>
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>>
>>
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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
To: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, "Jeremy O'Donoghue" <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>, Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr>
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From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
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Cc: Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr>, Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>,  "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT] [EXTERNAL] Re:  Attestation BoF charter updates?
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Hi Henk,

Appreciate the work you are putting into this.  It is getting closer.

EAT and CWT refer to things like a GPS location, SW version or device =
debug-enable state as =E2=80=9Cclaims=E2=80=9D.  I=E2=80=99m not sure =
what the equivalent in the current charter is. Grabbing every possible =
string it could be I came up with this list:

Introduction
"trusted claim sets=E2=80=9D
"Attestation Evidence=E2=80=9D
"information=E2=80=9D
"additional device characteristics=E2=80=9D
Problem Statement
"some data=E2=80=9D
"the evidence=E2=80=9D
=E2=80=9CSome data=E2=80=9D
Goals
"inter-operable, cross-platform Assertions=E2=80=9D
=E2=80=9CAssertion"
Deliverables
"Information elements for use in evidence-based attestation=E2=80=9D
"CWT claim definitions"


Per previous charter:

Attestation Evidence: Proof for one or more Attestation Claims =
(characteristics, attributes, ...) that affect device trustworthiness, =
such as its hardware identity, firmware, software, configuration or =
composition, compliance status and runtime state. Attestation Evidence =
may be consolidated through the use of cryptographic hash and key =
generation algorithms. Attestation Evidence veracity may be augmented by =
Claimant signatures over portions of the Attestation Evidence. Note that =
Claims are non-proven assertions as opposed to Attestation Evidence.

So what is the equivalent of a =E2=80=9Cclaim=E2=80=9D in this charter?

LL






> On Oct 16, 2018, at 6:41 PM, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Denis,
>=20
> I just pulled in your first proposal as an example in paragraph five.
>=20
> I am a bit concerned to drop the intent of establishing a believable =
context about attestation provenance. As you referred, for example, to =
FIDO - I think that is the intent there, is it not? Laurence proposed =
the terms "provenance and characteristics" as high level terms and all =
proponents agreed to use these. If this is a relevant disabler for a =
specific usage scenario, we might have to reconsider that.
>=20
> We cut out differentiating simple cases and more complex cases to =
reduce the complexity of the charter text for now. If that is =
counterproductive, we would like to get more input on that, please.
>=20
> Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>=20
> Henk
>=20
> On 10/15/2018 09:30 PM, Denis wrote:
>>> Here are my 5 cents on the term 'identity'.
>>>=20
>>> I have been working on identity management for many years (partially =
because of my OAuth co-chair role) and I have noticed that the use of =
the term "identity" tends to confuse more than it helps (even more so =
when the term is applied to devices and software rather than humans).
>>>=20
>>> I believe we could get away with describing what we want without =
ever using the term.
>>>=20
>>> In this context I would argue that we are about identifying =
different components, such as hardware and software.
>>>=20
>>> Ciao
>>> Hannes
>> +1
>> The single sentence where currently the word "identity" is being used =
is:
>>    As a result, in 2018, a Relying Party would be unable to tell if a
>>    device is trying to mimic the identity of another device or some =
of
>>    its characteristics.
>> This could be rephrased as:
>>    As a result, in 2018, there is no common way allowing Relying
>>    Parties to tell if some data originates from a trustworthy device
>>    designed to support a specific set of operations/functionalities =
or
>>    not .
>> The text currently states:
>>    2) In 2018, there are no common, standard ways for Relying Parties
>>    to know the provenance and characteristics of a device
>>    (e.g., an end-user device, platform or endpoint, servers, IoT
>>    devices, device subsystems and sub-modules) that may be requesting
>>    services.
>> As already said on this list, knowing the provenance of a device is =
not always necessary (but may be useful in some cases).
>> The key point is to know the characteristics of the device.
>> This could be rephrased as:
>>    2) In 2018, there are no common, standard ways for Relying Parties
>>    to know the characteristics of a device (e.g., an end-user device,
>>    platform or endpoint,
>>    servers, IoT devices, device subsystems and sub-modules) that may =
be
>>    requesting services.
>> Probably a typo in the following sentence:
>>    (1) A standardized way to establish a sufficient level of =
confidence
>>    that some data originates from a trustworthy device (e.g.,
>>    platforms, servers,
>>    user endpoints, IoT devices, device subsystems or subcomponents)
>>    designed to support a specific set of operations/functionalities =
/a
>>    communication partner is a trustworthy endpoint./
>> The end of the sentence (i.e. "a communication partner is a =
trustworthy endpoint.") looks odd and should probably be deleted.
>> The goals are currently limited to the definition of the content of =
the Assertions. A key point is the way to verify/validate an =
Attestation.
>> The more complex is the content of an Attestation, the more complex =
it will be to validate it by a RP.
>> A framework for validating the Attestations should also be part of =
the charter.
>> Denis
>> Note:At this stage, I still see no text to address both simple cases =
(e.g. FIDO attestations) and more complex cases.
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: EAT<eat-bounces@ietf.org>  On Behalf Of Smith, Ned
>>> Sent: Monday, October 15, 2018 9:00 AM
>>> To: Henk Birkholz<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>;rats@ietf.org; =
Jeremy O'Donoghue<jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>; Denis<denis.ietf@free.fr>
>>> Cc:eat@ietf.org
>>> Subject: Re: [EAT] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Rats] Attestation BoF charter =
updates?
>>>=20
>>> I agree with Henk's observation that there is opportunity to find =
common ground on identity as identity can be a collection of attributes, =
that if signed, becomes a set of verifiable claims (about identity =
attributes). Attestation has a similar structure in that it consists of =
a set of attributes, that if signed becomes a set of verifiable claims. =
The main difference between identity and attestation attributes is =
whether the attribute semantically relate to trust (vs. identity). For =
example, claims of security certification compliance resonates as =
attestation.
>>>=20
>>> It may be possible to combine a set of attestation attributes in =
such a way that the combination uniquely identifies an entity. But that =
doesn't make it an identity system per se and shouldn't cause a conflict =
in charter goals with respect to other identity focused efforts in IETF.
>>>=20
>>> Also, inclusion of attributes that don't have semantics that =
reasonably relate to trust should not be of interest to a working group =
focused on attestation.
>>>=20
>>> -Ned
>>>=20
>>> =EF=BB=BFOn 10/15/18, 3:53 PM, "EAT on behalf of Henk =
Birkholz"<eat-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of =
henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>  wrote:
>>>=20
>>>     Hi Jeremy & Denis,
>>>=20
>>>     all these points of view have merit, I think.
>>>=20
>>>     Please have a look at these quotes:
>>>=20
>>>     > knowing the provenance of the device
>>>=20
>>>     > having the entity creator/manufacturer provide a set of claims =
which can be verified
>>>=20
>>>     > to know the characteristics of a device by issuing to the =
device a public key certificate which will only be issued to the device =
if it fulfills an expected set of functionalities.
>>>=20
>>>     To me, these descriptions seem to have different intents, scope =
or
>>>     audience and require most certainly different work-flows, but
>>>     semantically and in consequence representation-wise they also =
seem quite
>>>     related.
>>>=20
>>>     If you think of an identity document as a set of claims =
(potentially
>>>     including a public key), that is signed and that can match one =
or more
>>>     things, maybe all three types highlighted above are actually =
covered by
>>>     the same identity document concept?
>>>=20
>>>     With respect to identity documents, I think it is safe so say =
that we
>>>     can find common ground here rather easily. That said, the way =
how these
>>>     identity documents come into existence, when and how they are =
deployed
>>>     on the thing or associated with multiple things is another =
question. We
>>>     most certainly do not want to end up with a "signing fool" that =
does not
>>>     add value to the level of confidence (I am quoting Ned Smith =
here).
>>>=20
>>>     This has to be fleshed out explicitly for each scenario and the =
parts
>>>     that are reused in every scenario should get special attention =
in the
>>>     upcoming RATS architecture draft.
>>>=20
>>>     Identifying claims aggregated in an identity document most =
certainly can
>>>     include device characteristics, public key(s), or claims about =
the
>>>     intended functions and capabilities of the thing. Claims can =
even
>>>     originate from Claimants that are not the thing itself, but =
external
>>>     entities providing an assertion (e.g. these things are =
CC-certified).
>>>=20
>>>     All different composites of identifying claims have a specific =
shared
>>>     intend in this context though, I think: expressing Attestation
>>>     Provenance (again - one for one or more things of the same =
kind). And
>>>     all of them originate from Claimants and therefore use a root of =
trust
>>>     of measurement, I think.
>>>=20
>>>     That said, establishing trustworthy knowledge about attestation
>>>     provenance is only the first step and provides the foundation =
for more
>>>     complex attestation procedures. In any case, this seem to be =
required by
>>>     every scenario that was highlighted so far and therefore will =
most
>>>     certainly be covered in a deliverable.
>>>=20
>>>     IHTH,
>>>=20
>>>     Henk
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>     On 10/15/2018 12:22 PM, Jeremy O'Donoghue wrote:
>>>     > On 12 Oct 2018, at 14:33, Denis<denis.ietf@free.fr >  =
<mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr>> wrote:
>>>     >> The "Problem Statement" continues as follows:
>>>     >>
>>>     >> (2) Today, there is no common, standard way for Relying =
Parties to
>>>     >> know the provenance and characteristics of a device (e.g., an =
end-user
>>>     >> device,
>>>     >> platform or endpoint, servers, IoT devices, device subsystems =
and
>>>     >> sub-modules) that may be requesting services.
>>>     >>
>>>     >> Knowing the provenance of the device is not always necessary. =
What is
>>>     >> important is to know that a specific set of functions is =
(securely)
>>>     >> supported by the device.
>>>     >> There already exists a common way to know the characteristics =
of a
>>>     >> device by issuing to the device a public key certificate =
which will
>>>     >> only be issued to the device
>>>     >> if it fulfills an expected set of functionalities. In such a =
case a
>>>     >> syntax for a trusted claim sets**is not needed.
>>>     >>
>>>     > This is indeed a possible way to address the problem, but =
suffers from
>>>     > challenges which come down to:
>>>     >
>>>     > - Who issues such certificates. An option is that there is =
some form of
>>>     > security certification behind this issuance otherwise it is of =
very
>>>     > limited value.
>>>     > - In order to capture the wide variety of different devices (I =
prefer
>>>     > "entity" here as it is more general than "device"), many =
different forms
>>>     > of such certificates would be required. This ends up being =
much the same
>>>     > thing as a set of claims.
>>>     >
>>>     > Given the multiplicity of entities for which attestation might =
be
>>>     > useful, it seems to me that having the entity =
creator/manufacturer
>>>     > provide a set of claims which can be verified is more flexible =
than
>>>     > requiring a certificate. It seems likely to me that where a =
formal
>>>     > security certification is needed there will be a certificate =
issued by
>>>     > the Certifying Body as one of the claims about an entity, but =
I can
>>>     > think of many cases (supply chain management, to take just one =
example)
>>>     > where provenance is by far the most useful information.
>>>     >
>>>     > I'm not in favour of changes to the charter in this direction.
>>>     >>
>>>     >> The simplest cases should also be part of the framework.
>>>     >>
>>>     >> Note: I personally appreciate that privacy is an aspect that
>>>     >> will/should be taken into consideration.
>>>     >>
>>>     >> Denis
>>>     >>
>>>     >>> As with the earlier draft, there are many references to =
verify and
>>>     >>> verifier in the lead up to the deliverable but no =
deliverables describing
>>>     >>> verification rules. I'd like to see rules in one of these =
documents and
>>>     >>> think it worth citing in the deliverables. Are bindings to =
certificate
>>>     >>> management protocols out of scope?
>>>     >>>
>>>     >>> On 10/11/18, 9:49 AM, "RATS on behalf of Henk Birkholz"
>>>     >>><rats-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of =
henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>   wrote:
>>>     >>>
>>>     >>>> Hi all,
>>>     >>>>
>>>     >>>> sorry for the delay. Please find an updated charter =
proposal here:
>>>     >>>>
>>>     =
>>>>>https://github.com/ietf-rats/charter/blob/RC2/ietf-rats-charter.md
>>>     >>>> The BoF proponents tried to merge all comments and =
proposals on
>>>     >>>> keystores, existing solutions, provenance & device =
characteristics, etc
>>>     >>>> that were raised on the list - and align them in =
homogeneous fashion.
>>>     >>>>
>>>     >>>> This draft is intended to focus the discussion and improve =
the wording.
>>>     >>>>
>>>     >>>> Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>>>     >>>>
>>>     >>>> Henk
>>>     >>>>
>>>     >>>> On 10/06/2018 08:23 AM, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>>>     >>>>> Hi Henk,
>>>     >>>>>
>>>     >>>>> Bangkok IETF is getting close, will you be able to update =
the charter
>>>     >>>>> for the attestation BoF to properly include EAT?  I sent =
you some text
>>>     >>>>> that just needs to be pasted along with some comments. It =
doesn=E2=80=99t look
>>>     >>>>> like there=E2=80=99s been any updates.
>>>     >>>>>
>>>     >>>>> LL
>>>     >>>>>
>>>     >>>> _______________________________________________
>>>     >>>> RATS mailing list
>>>     >>>>RATS@ietf.org
>>>     >>>>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>>>     >>> _______________________________________________
>>>     >>> EAT mailing list
>>>     >>>EAT@ietf.org
>>>     >>>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat
>>>     >>
>>>     >>
>>>     >> _______________________________________________
>>>     >> EAT mailing list
>>>     >>EAT@ietf.org  <mailto:EAT@ietf.org>
>>>     >>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat
>>>     >
>>>     >
>>>     >
>>>     > _______________________________________________
>>>     > EAT mailing list
>>>     >EAT@ietf.org
>>>     >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat
>>>     >
>>>=20
>>>     _______________________________________________
>>>     EAT mailing list
>>>     EAT@ietf.org
>>>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> EAT mailing list
>>> EAT@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat
>>> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are =
confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended =
recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the =
contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy =
the information in any medium. Thank you.
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> EAT mailing list
> EAT@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat


--Apple-Mail=_E71BBBF8-9693-446C-B398-D700C159EE43
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Hi Henk,</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Appreciate the work you are putting into this. &nbsp;It is =
getting closer.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">EAT and CWT refer to things like a GPS location, SW version =
or device debug-enable state as =E2=80=9Cclaims=E2=80=9D. &nbsp;I=E2=80=99=
m not sure what the equivalent in the current charter is. Grabbing every =
possible string it could be I came up with this list:</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; =
border: none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><u =
class=3D"">Introduction</u></div><div class=3D"">"trusted claim =
sets=E2=80=9D</div><div class=3D"">"Attestation Evidence=E2=80=9D</div><di=
v class=3D"">"information=E2=80=9D</div><div class=3D"">"additional =
device characteristics=E2=80=9D</div><div class=3D""><u class=3D"">Problem=
 Statement</u></div><div class=3D"">"some data=E2=80=9D</div><div =
class=3D"">"the evidence=E2=80=9D</div><div class=3D"">=E2=80=9CSome =
data=E2=80=9D</div><div class=3D""><u class=3D"">Goals</u></div><div =
class=3D"">"inter-operable, cross-platform Assertions=E2=80=9D</div><div =
class=3D"">=E2=80=9CAssertion"</div><div class=3D""><u =
class=3D"">Deliverables</u></div><div class=3D"">"Information elements =
for use in evidence-based attestation=E2=80=9D</div><div class=3D"">"CWT =
claim definitions"</div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Per =
previous charter:</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><pre class=3D"wordwrap" style=3D"box-sizing: border-box; =
overflow: auto; font-family: Menlo, Monaco, Consolas, &quot;Courier =
New&quot;, monospace; padding: 0px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: =
10px; line-height: 1.42857143; word-break: normal; word-wrap: normal; =
color: rgb(51, 51, 51); background-color: white; border: 0px none black; =
border-top-left-radius: 4px; border-top-right-radius: 4px; =
border-bottom-right-radius: 4px; border-bottom-left-radius: 4px; =
white-space: pre-wrap; caret-color: rgb(51, 51, 51);"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11px;" class=3D"">Attestation Evidence: Proof for =
one or more Attestation Claims (characteristics, attributes, ...) that =
affect device trustworthiness, such as its hardware identity, firmware, =
software, configuration or composition, compliance status and runtime =
state. Attestation Evidence may be consolidated through the use of =
cryptographic hash and key generation algorithms. Attestation Evidence =
veracity may be augmented by Claimant signatures over portions of the =
Attestation Evidence. Note that Claims are non-proven assertions as =
opposed to Attestation Evidence.</span></pre></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D"">So =
what is the equivalent of a =E2=80=9Cclaim=E2=80=9D in this =
charter?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><br class=3D""><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Oct =
16, 2018, at 6:41 PM, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">Hi =
Denis,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I just pulled in your first proposal =
as an example in paragraph five.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I am a bit =
concerned to drop the intent of establishing a believable context about =
attestation provenance. As you referred, for example, to FIDO - I think =
that is the intent there, is it not? Laurence proposed the terms =
"provenance and characteristics" as high level terms and all proponents =
agreed to use these. If this is a relevant disabler for a specific usage =
scenario, we might have to reconsider that.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">We cut out differentiating simple cases and more complex =
cases to reduce the complexity of the charter text for now. If that is =
counterproductive, we would like to get more input on that, please.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Henk<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">On 10/15/2018 09:30 PM, =
Denis wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Here are my 5 cents on =
the term 'identity'.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I have been working on =
identity management for many years (partially because of my OAuth =
co-chair role) and I have noticed that the use of the term "identity" =
tends to confuse more than it helps (even more so when the term is =
applied to devices and software rather than humans).<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">I believe we could get away with describing what we want =
without ever using the term.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">In this =
context I would argue that we are about identifying different =
components, such as hardware and software.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Ciao<br class=3D"">Hannes<br class=3D""></blockquote>+1<br =
class=3D"">The single sentence where currently the word "identity" is =
being used is:<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;As a result, in 2018, a =
Relying Party would be unable to tell if a<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;device is trying to mimic the identity of another =
device or some of<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;its =
characteristics.<br class=3D"">This could be rephrased as:<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;As a result, in 2018, there is no common way allowing =
Relying<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Parties to tell if some data =
originates from a trustworthy device<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;designed to support a specific set of =
operations/functionalities or<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;not .<br =
class=3D"">The text currently states:<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;2) In 2018, there are no common, standard ways for =
Relying Parties<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;to know the provenance =
and characteristics of a device<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;(e.g., =
an end-user device, platform or endpoint, servers, IoT<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;devices, device subsystems and sub-modules) that may =
be requesting<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;services.<br class=3D"">As =
already said on this list, knowing the provenance of a device is not =
always necessary (but may be useful in some cases).<br class=3D"">The =
key point is to know the characteristics of the device.<br class=3D"">This=
 could be rephrased as:<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;2) In 2018, =
there are no common, standard ways for Relying Parties<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;to know the characteristics of a device (e.g., an =
end-user device,<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;platform or =
endpoint,<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;servers, IoT devices, device =
subsystems and sub-modules) that may be<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;requesting services.<br class=3D"">Probably a typo in =
the following sentence:<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;(1) A =
standardized way to establish a sufficient level of confidence<br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;that some data originates from a =
trustworthy device (e.g.,<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;platforms, =
servers,<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;user endpoints, IoT devices, =
device subsystems or subcomponents)<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;designed to support a specific set of =
operations/functionalities /a<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;communication partner is a trustworthy endpoint./<br =
class=3D"">The end of the sentence (i.e. "a communication partner is a =
trustworthy endpoint.") looks odd and should probably be deleted.<br =
class=3D"">The goals are currently limited to the definition of the =
content of the Assertions. A key point is the way to verify/validate an =
Attestation.<br class=3D"">The more complex is the content of an =
Attestation, the more complex it will be to validate it by a RP.<br =
class=3D"">A framework for validating the Attestations should also be =
part of the charter.<br class=3D"">Denis<br class=3D"">Note:At this =
stage, I still see no text to address both simple cases (e.g. FIDO =
attestations) and more complex cases.<br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"">-----Original Message-----<br class=3D"">From: =
EAT&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">eat-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; &nbsp;On Behalf Of Smith, Ned<br =
class=3D"">Sent: Monday, October 15, 2018 9:00 AM<br class=3D"">To: Henk =
Birkholz&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" class=3D"">rats@ietf.org</a>; Jeremy =
O'Donoghue&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com" =
class=3D"">jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com</a>&gt;; Denis&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr" =
class=3D"">denis.ietf@free.fr</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">Cc:<a =
href=3D"mailto:eat@ietf.org" class=3D"">eat@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">Subject: Re: [EAT] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Rats] Attestation BoF =
charter updates?<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I agree with Henk's =
observation that there is opportunity to find common ground on identity =
as identity can be a collection of attributes, that if signed, becomes a =
set of verifiable claims (about identity attributes). Attestation has a =
similar structure in that it consists of a set of attributes, that if =
signed becomes a set of verifiable claims. The main difference between =
identity and attestation attributes is whether the attribute =
semantically relate to trust (vs. identity). For example, claims of =
security certification compliance resonates as attestation.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">It may be possible to combine a set of =
attestation attributes in such a way that the combination uniquely =
identifies an entity. But that doesn't make it an identity system per se =
and shouldn't cause a conflict in charter goals with respect to other =
identity focused efforts in IETF.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Also, =
inclusion of attributes that don't have semantics that reasonably relate =
to trust should not be of interest to a working group focused on =
attestation.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">-Ned<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">=EF=BB=BFOn 10/15/18, 3:53 PM, "EAT on behalf of Henk =
Birkholz"&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">eat-bounces@ietf.org</a> on behalf of <a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt; &nbsp;wrote:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Hi Jeremy &amp; =
Denis,<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;all these =
points of view have merit, I think.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Please have a look at these quotes:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; knowing the =
provenance of the device<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; having the entity creator/manufacturer =
provide a set of claims which can be verified<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; to know the characteristics of =
a device by issuing to the device a public key certificate which will =
only be issued to the device if it fulfills an expected set of =
functionalities.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;To me, these descriptions seem to have different =
intents, scope or<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;audience and =
require most certainly different work-flows, but<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;semantically and in consequence =
representation-wise they also seem quite<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;related.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;If you think of an identity document as a set of =
claims (potentially<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;including a =
public key), that is signed and that can match one or more<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;things, maybe all three types highlighted above =
are actually covered by<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;the same =
identity document concept?<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;With respect to identity documents, I think it =
is safe so say that we<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;can find =
common ground here rather easily. That said, the way how these<br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;identity documents come into =
existence, when and how they are deployed<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;on the thing or associated with multiple things =
is another question. We<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;most =
certainly do not want to end up with a "signing fool" that does not<br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;add value to the level of confidence =
(I am quoting Ned Smith here).<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;This has to be fleshed out explicitly for each =
scenario and the parts<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;that are =
reused in every scenario should get special attention in the<br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;upcoming RATS architecture draft.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Identifying claims =
aggregated in an identity document most certainly can<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;include device characteristics, public key(s), =
or claims about the<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;intended =
functions and capabilities of the thing. Claims can even<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;originate from Claimants that are not the thing =
itself, but external<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;entities =
providing an assertion (e.g. these things are CC-certified).<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;All different =
composites of identifying claims have a specific shared<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;intend in this context though, I think: =
expressing Attestation<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Provenance =
(again - one for one or more things of the same kind). And<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;all of them originate from Claimants and =
therefore use a root of trust<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;of =
measurement, I think.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;That said, establishing trustworthy knowledge =
about attestation<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;provenance is =
only the first step and provides the foundation for more<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;complex attestation procedures. In any case, =
this seem to be required by<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;every =
scenario that was highlighted so far and therefore will most<br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;certainly be covered in a =
deliverable.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;IHTH,<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Henk<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;On 10/15/2018 12:22 PM, Jeremy O'Donoghue =
wrote:<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; On 12 Oct 2018, at =
14:33, Denis&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr" =
class=3D"">denis.ietf@free.fr</a> &gt; &nbsp;&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr" =
class=3D"">mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt; The "Problem Statement" continues as =
follows:<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt; (2) Today, there is no common, standard =
way for Relying Parties to<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt; know the provenance and characteristics =
of a device (e.g., an end-user<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt; device,<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt; platform or endpoint, servers, IoT =
devices, device subsystems and<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt; sub-modules) that may be requesting =
services.<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt; Knowing the provenance of the device is =
not always necessary. What is<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt; important is to know that a specific =
set of functions is (securely)<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt; supported by the device.<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt; There already exists a common way to =
know the characteristics of a<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt; device by issuing to the device a =
public key certificate which will<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt; only be issued to the device<br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt; if it fulfills an expected =
set of functionalities. In such a case a<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt; syntax for a trusted claim sets**is not =
needed.<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; This is indeed a possible way to address =
the problem, but suffers from<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; challenges which come down to:<br class=3D"">=
 &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; - Who issues such certificates. An option =
is that there is some form of<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; security certification behind this issuance =
otherwise it is of very<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; =
limited value.<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; - In order to =
capture the wide variety of different devices (I prefer<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; "entity" here as it is more general than =
"device"), many different forms<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; of such certificates would be required. =
This ends up being much the same<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; thing as a set of claims.<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; =
Given the multiplicity of entities for which attestation might be<br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; useful, it seems to me that =
having the entity creator/manufacturer<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; provide a set of claims which can be =
verified is more flexible than<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; requiring a certificate. It seems likely to =
me that where a formal<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; =
security certification is needed there will be a certificate issued =
by<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; the Certifying Body as =
one of the claims about an entity, but I can<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; think of many cases (supply chain =
management, to take just one example)<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; where provenance is by far the most useful =
information.<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; I'm not in favour of changes to the charter =
in this direction.<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;<br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt; The simplest cases should =
also be part of the framework.<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt; Note: I personally appreciate that =
privacy is an aspect that<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt; will/should be taken into =
consideration.<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;<br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt; Denis<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;&gt; As with the earlier draft, there =
are many references to verify and<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;&gt; verifier in the lead up to the =
deliverable but no deliverables describing<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;&gt; verification rules. I'd like to see =
rules in one of these documents and<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;&gt; think it worth citing in the =
deliverables. Are bindings to certificate<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;&gt; management protocols out of =
scope?<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;&gt; On 10/11/18, 9:49 AM, "RATS on =
behalf of Henk Birkholz"<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;&gt;&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org" class=3D"">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>=
 on behalf of <a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt; &nbsp;&nbsp;wrote:<br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi all,<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; sorry for the delay. Please =
find an updated charter proposal here:<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<a =
href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-rats/charter/blob/RC2/ietf-rats-charter.md=
" =
class=3D"">https://github.com/ietf-rats/charter/blob/RC2/ietf-rats-charter=
.md</a><br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; The BoF =
proponents tried to merge all comments and proposals on<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; keystores, existing solutions, =
provenance &amp; device characteristics, etc<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; that were raised on the list - =
and align them in homogeneous fashion.<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; This draft is intended to focus =
the discussion and improve the wording.<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,<br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Henk<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On 10/06/2018 08:23 AM, =
Laurence Lundblade wrote:<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Hi Henk,<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Bangkok IETF is getting =
close, will you be able to update the charter<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; for the attestation BoF to =
properly include EAT? &nbsp;I sent you some text<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; that just needs to be =
pasted along with some comments. It doesn=E2=80=99t look<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; like there=E2=80=99s been =
any updates.<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; LL<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
_______________________________________________<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; RATS mailing list<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">RATS@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats</a><br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
_______________________________________________<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;&gt; EAT mailing list<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:EAT@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">EAT@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;&gt;<a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat</a><br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt; =
_______________________________________________<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt; EAT mailing list<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:EAT@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">EAT@ietf.org</a> &nbsp;&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:EAT@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">mailto:EAT@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;&gt;<a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat</a><br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; =
_______________________________________________<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt; EAT mailing list<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;<a href=3D"mailto:EAT@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">EAT@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;<a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat</a><br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&gt;<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;_______________________________________________<br=
 class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;EAT mailing list<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href=3D"mailto:EAT@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">EAT@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat</a><br class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">EAT mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:EAT@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">EAT@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat<br =
class=3D"">IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any =
attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not =
the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not =
disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or =
store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.<br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">EAT mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:EAT@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">EAT@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_E71BBBF8-9693-446C-B398-D700C159EE43--


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From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT] [EXTERNAL] Re:  Attestation BoF charter updates?
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From: Giridhar Mandyam <mandyam@qti.qualcomm.com>
To: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: [Rats] [EAT] [EXTERNAL] Re: Attestation BoF charter updates?
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Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2018 16:11:49 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT] [EXTERNAL] Re:  Attestation BoF charter updates?
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I think the TCG has a certain developed notion of identity that is =
different from others.  A way to get sharper about what a particular =
identity means is to describe the space and how the identifier selects =
in the space.  Here=E2=80=99s a few examples:

- The space is physical human beings with fingers. A fingerprint scanner =
select one of these humans. This is typical biometric auth.
- The space is humans that know a password. A password authenticator =
selects the humans that know the password. Typical authentication.
- The space is humans as legal entities / citizens with criminal =
records, passports and such. A national ID selects.=20
- The space is physical manufactured devices from one maker.  A serial =
number narrows it down to one physical device.
- The space is physical devices from one maker. A model number or =
version, narrows down to a subset of these devices.

My understanding of the TCG world is that identities goes beyond any of =
the above because they include things like the version of the SW and =
configuration of the device. The identity is largely a hash of an =
identifier of the physical device, various SW components and various =
configuration states.  The point being that a change in any of these is =
a change in the security characteristics of the device and if it was =
trusted with a particular key or particular data in the past, that trust =
should be revoked until re established.

- The space is physical devices from any maker
  + Measurement of the SW (the SW versions)
     + Measurements of some configuration

Changing any of these change the identity of the device.=20

I know I hardly need to ask, but TCG folks, did I describe this =
correctly?


So that said, many, perhaps most, use cases for EAT do not want this =
kind of device identity. It is not a prerequisite for trusting  claims =
coming from the device. In some cases this level of identity seems =
extremely disruptive as small SW upgrades could result in re enrollment =
of biometrics. We already are annoyed when we have to answer security =
questions when start using a service from a new device.=20

I think this WG needs to address both this very tight TCG-style device =
identity and the more heuristic EAT-style claims-for-risk-engines. I =
could see multi-decade evolution where risk engine use cases want more =
and more of the tight TCG-style device identity as criminals become more =
adept at forging EAT-style claims. (Today risk engines work off of =
unsecured browser parameters).=20

The Introduction in the charter seems entirely focused on the TCG-based =
identity use case. I think text should be added for EAT-style =
attestation. I will write some after some comments on this message.

LL=20





> On Oct 16, 2018, at 8:24 PM, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
>=20
> To quote Carsten, there is "the usual terminology problem about =
identity".
>=20
> Identifying vs. Identity brings back memories about an extensive =
discussion in SACM that in the end resulted in using Profiles...
>=20
> Profiles are the "things" that you can aggregate identity claims in =
(in SACM these claims are "Target Endpoint Characteristics", which are =
pretty much the same thing as Device Characteristics) - and you use the =
Profiles to (re-)identify target endpoints.
>=20
> In the scope of remote attestation procedures, I think that "just not =
calling" claim sets that are composed (amongst others) of identifying =
claims "identity documents" might just end up in making up another name =
for something that is effectively composing identity documents anyways. =
If calling the same thing something else helps in some way, I am all for =
it. But I am really not sure.
>=20
> That said, Ned's elaboration on the relationship of identity and =
attestation claims and corresponding claim semantics / trust semantics =
is spot on, I think.
>=20
> Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>=20
> Henk
>=20
> On 10/16/2018 03:51 PM, Smith, Ned wrote:
>> Agree with Hannes that identity discussion can lead to confusion as =
identity is often highly dependent on some sort of context (domain of =
interpretation).
>> In order to have productive conversation about attestation and =
identity, it may be important to understand that attestation semantics =
sets the context for identity.
>> * Attestation attributes have trust semantics (and trust semantics =
are interpreted through the eyes of the verifier). Identity attributes =
may also have trust semantics (in addition to identity semantics) hence =
can be regarded as playing a role in both identity and attestation. =
Since RATS should be interested primarily in trust semantics, it makes =
sense to understand, discuss and consider identity in terms of its trust =
semantics. Hence identity attributes are only interesting to RATS if =
they are useful for evaluating trust semantics.
>> * In a closed ecosystem, the trust characteristics and properties may =
be implied because there often exists out-of-band processes that ensure =
the characteristics are applied (for example, if an IT organization sets =
a policy that all asymmetric keys are to be hardened using a smartcard, =
they can apply a deployment process where the IT professional verifies =
the smartcard is used during enrollment.) But in a non-closed ecosystem, =
there isn't an assumption that out-of-band processes exist. Attestation =
attempts to make explicit what otherwise is implicit and therefore =
subject to misinterpretation if the verifier, relying party and attester =
are not part of the same closed ecosystem. Implicit attestation =
therefore can lead to semantic confusion if we're not careful. =
Therefore, the rigor of treating implicit attestation claims (assertions =
assumed to exist but not explicitly named) should nevertheless be =
defined explicitly. Then, if there is a need for implicit attestation, =
the specifications that describe them can describe them in terms of an =
explicit definition.
>> * In the context of asserting trust characteristics, the verifier =
needs to know that a set of characteristics applies to the instance of =
the endpoint being evaluated (aka the attester). (Otherwise a MITM could =
supply characteristics that may be valid, but don=E2=80=99t apply to the =
specific instance). Consequently, it makes sense to consider that =
*attestation* keys are needed to authenticate the endpoint being =
evaluated. This doesn't imply an identity key couldn't double as an =
attestation key. But if it does, we care about its relevance to the =
attester endpoint.
>> -Ned
>> =EF=BB=BFOn 10/15/18, 6:49 PM, "Hannes Tschofenig" =
<Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> wrote:
>>     Here are my 5 cents on the term 'identity'.
>>          I have been working on identity management for many years =
(partially because of my OAuth co-chair role) and I have noticed that =
the use of the term "identity" tends to confuse more than it helps (even =
more so when the term is applied to devices and software rather than =
humans).
>>          I believe we could get away with describing what we want =
without ever using the term.
>>          In this context I would argue that we are about identifying =
different components, such as hardware and software.
>>          Ciao
>>     Hannes
>>          -----Original Message-----
>>     From: EAT <eat-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Smith, Ned
>>     Sent: Monday, October 15, 2018 9:00 AM
>>     To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>; =
rats@ietf.org; Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>; Denis =
<denis.ietf@free.fr>
>>     Cc: eat@ietf.org
>>     Subject: Re: [EAT] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Rats] Attestation BoF charter =
updates?
>>          I agree with Henk's observation that there is opportunity to =
find common ground on identity as identity can be a collection of =
attributes, that if signed, becomes a set of verifiable claims (about =
identity attributes). Attestation has a similar structure in that it =
consists of a set of attributes, that if signed becomes a set of =
verifiable claims. The main difference between identity and attestation =
attributes is whether the attribute semantically relate to trust (vs. =
identity). For example, claims of security certification compliance =
resonates as attestation.
>>          It may be possible to combine a set of attestation =
attributes in such a way that the combination uniquely identifies an =
entity. But that doesn't make it an identity system per se and shouldn't =
cause a conflict in charter goals with respect to other identity focused =
efforts in IETF.
>>          Also, inclusion of attributes that don't have semantics that =
reasonably relate to trust should not be of interest to a working group =
focused on attestation.
>>          -Ned
>>          On 10/15/18, 3:53 PM, "EAT on behalf of Henk Birkholz" =
<eat-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> =
wrote:
>>              Hi Jeremy & Denis,
>>              all these points of view have merit, I think.
>>              Please have a look at these quotes:
>>              > knowing the provenance of the device
>>              > having the entity creator/manufacturer provide a set =
of claims which can be verified
>>              > to know the characteristics of a device by issuing to =
the device a public key certificate which will only be issued to the =
device if it fulfills an expected set of functionalities.
>>              To me, these descriptions seem to have different =
intents, scope or
>>         audience and require most certainly different work-flows, but
>>         semantically and in consequence representation-wise they also =
seem quite
>>         related.
>>              If you think of an identity document as a set of claims =
(potentially
>>         including a public key), that is signed and that can match =
one or more
>>         things, maybe all three types highlighted above are actually =
covered by
>>         the same identity document concept?
>>              With respect to identity documents, I think it is safe =
so say that we
>>         can find common ground here rather easily. That said, the way =
how these
>>         identity documents come into existence, when and how they are =
deployed
>>         on the thing or associated with multiple things is another =
question. We
>>         most certainly do not want to end up with a "signing fool" =
that does not
>>         add value to the level of confidence (I am quoting Ned Smith =
here).
>>              This has to be fleshed out explicitly for each scenario =
and the parts
>>         that are reused in every scenario should get special =
attention in the
>>         upcoming RATS architecture draft.
>>              Identifying claims aggregated in an identity document =
most certainly can
>>         include device characteristics, public key(s), or claims =
about the
>>         intended functions and capabilities of the thing. Claims can =
even
>>         originate from Claimants that are not the thing itself, but =
external
>>         entities providing an assertion (e.g. these things are =
CC-certified).
>>              All different composites of identifying claims have a =
specific shared
>>         intend in this context though, I think: expressing =
Attestation
>>         Provenance (again - one for one or more things of the same =
kind). And
>>         all of them originate from Claimants and therefore use a root =
of trust
>>         of measurement, I think.
>>              That said, establishing trustworthy knowledge about =
attestation
>>         provenance is only the first step and provides the foundation =
for more
>>         complex attestation procedures. In any case, this seem to be =
required by
>>         every scenario that was highlighted so far and therefore will =
most
>>         certainly be covered in a deliverable.
>>              IHTH,
>>              Henk
>>                   On 10/15/2018 12:22 PM, Jeremy O'Donoghue wrote:
>>         > On 12 Oct 2018, at 14:33, Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr
>>         > <mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr>> wrote:
>>         >> The "Problem Statement" continues as follows:
>>         >>
>>         >> (2) Today, there is no common, standard way for Relying =
Parties to
>>         >> know the provenance and characteristics of a device (e.g., =
an end-user
>>         >> device,
>>         >> platform or endpoint, servers, IoT devices, device =
subsystems and
>>         >> sub-modules) that may be requesting services.
>>         >>
>>         >> Knowing the provenance of the device is not always =
necessary. What is
>>         >> important is to know that a specific set of functions is =
(securely)
>>         >> supported by the device.
>>         >> There already exists a common way to know the =
characteristics of a
>>         >> device by issuing to the device a public key certificate =
which will
>>         >> only be issued to the device
>>         >> if it fulfills an expected set of functionalities. In such =
a case a
>>         >> syntax for a trusted claim sets**is not needed.
>>         >>
>>         > This is indeed a possible way to address the problem, but =
suffers from
>>         > challenges which come down to:
>>         >
>>         > - Who issues such certificates. An option is that there is =
some form of
>>         > security certification behind this issuance otherwise it is =
of very
>>         > limited value.
>>         > - In order to capture the wide variety of different devices =
(I prefer
>>         > "entity" here as it is more general than "device"), many =
different forms
>>         > of such certificates would be required. This ends up being =
much the same
>>         > thing as a set of claims.
>>         >
>>         > Given the multiplicity of entities for which attestation =
might be
>>         > useful, it seems to me that having the entity =
creator/manufacturer
>>         > provide a set of claims which can be verified is more =
flexible than
>>         > requiring a certificate. It seems likely to me that where a =
formal
>>         > security certification is needed there will be a =
certificate issued by
>>         > the Certifying Body as one of the claims about an entity, =
but I can
>>         > think of many cases (supply chain management, to take just =
one example)
>>         > where provenance is by far the most useful information.
>>         >
>>         > I'm not in favour of changes to the charter in this =
direction.
>>         >>
>>         >> The simplest cases should also be part of the framework.
>>         >>
>>         >> Note: I personally appreciate that privacy is an aspect =
that
>>         >> will/should be taken into consideration.
>>         >>
>>         >> Denis
>>         >>
>>         >>> As with the earlier draft, there are many references to =
verify and
>>         >>> verifier in the lead up to the deliverable but no =
deliverables describing
>>         >>> verification rules. I'd like to see rules in one of these =
documents and
>>         >>> think it worth citing in the deliverables. Are bindings =
to certificate
>>         >>> management protocols out of scope?
>>         >>>
>>         >>> On 10/11/18, 9:49 AM, "RATS on behalf of Henk Birkholz"
>>         >>> <rats-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of =
henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>  wrote:
>>         >>>
>>         >>>> Hi all,
>>         >>>>
>>         >>>> sorry for the delay. Please find an updated charter =
proposal here:
>>         >>>>
>>         >>>>> =
https://github.com/ietf-rats/charter/blob/RC2/ietf-rats-charter.md
>>         >>>> The BoF proponents tried to merge all comments and =
proposals on
>>         >>>> keystores, existing solutions, provenance & device =
characteristics, etc
>>         >>>> that were raised on the list - and align them in =
homogeneous fashion.
>>         >>>>
>>         >>>> This draft is intended to focus the discussion and =
improve the wording.
>>         >>>>
>>         >>>> Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>>         >>>>
>>         >>>> Henk
>>         >>>>
>>         >>>> On 10/06/2018 08:23 AM, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>>         >>>>> Hi Henk,
>>         >>>>>
>>         >>>>> Bangkok IETF is getting close, will you be able to =
update the charter
>>         >>>>> for the attestation BoF to properly include EAT?  I =
sent you some text
>>         >>>>> that just needs to be pasted along with some comments. =
It doesn=E2=80=99t look
>>         >>>>> like there=E2=80=99s been any updates.
>>         >>>>>
>>         >>>>> LL
>>         >>>>>
>>         >>>> _______________________________________________
>>         >>>> RATS mailing list
>>         >>>> RATS@ietf.org
>>         >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>>         >>> _______________________________________________
>>         >>> EAT mailing list
>>         >>> EAT@ietf.org
>>         >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat
>>         >>
>>         >>
>>         >> _______________________________________________
>>         >> EAT mailing list
>>         >> EAT@ietf.org <mailto:EAT@ietf.org>
>>         >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat
>>         >
>>         >
>>         >
>>         > _______________________________________________
>>         > EAT mailing list
>>         > EAT@ietf.org
>>         > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat
>>         >
>>              _______________________________________________
>>         EAT mailing list
>>         EAT@ietf.org
>>         https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat
>>               _______________________________________________
>>     EAT mailing list
>>     EAT@ietf.org
>>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat
>>     IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments =
are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended =
recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the =
contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy =
the information in any medium. Thank you.
>>    =20
> _______________________________________________
> EAT mailing list
> EAT@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat


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From: "Diego R. Lopez" <diego.r.lopez@telefonica.com>
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
CC: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr>
Thread-Topic: [EAT] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Rats] Attestation BoF charter updates?
Thread-Index: AQHUZJbpNOn21x1eTk2jvp6xCIn9NKUgdvSAgAAevICAAU/wgIAAEX0AgADkMICAAIJ9gA==
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/d0sPkLkmsvz2OHS_0wJlf9Bqzh0>
Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT] [EXTERNAL] Re:  Attestation BoF charter updates?
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From: Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net>
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
CC: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>, Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [EAT] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Rats] Attestation BoF charter updates?
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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 10:56:05 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT] [EXTERNAL] Re:  Attestation BoF charter updates?
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From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT] [EXTERNAL] Re:  Attestation BoF charter updates?
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	charset=utf-8

Wasn=E2=80=99t saying there was ambiguity in the TCG case. Not being a =
TCGer, was just was trying to understand what the TCG definition is.=20

Your mentioning 802.1AR DevID helps a lot as I have some knowledge of =
it.

I see now that my speculation about SW / config version was wrong. =
That=E2=80=99s fine. I only wrote it to try to get to clarity.

Thanks for help clarifying.

In EAT, we defined a UEID for what TCGer=E2=80=99s mean by =E2=80=9Cidenti=
ty":
   UEID's identify individual manufactured entities / devices such as a
   mobile phone, a water meter, a Bluetooth speaker or a networked
   security camera.  It may identify the entire device or a submodule or
   subsystem.  It does not identify types, models or classes of devices.
   It is akin to a serial number, though it does not have to be
   sequential. =20

See here <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mandyam-eat-00#section-3.1> =
for more on UEID.

In EAT there is a strong desire to separate the signing key material =
from UEID to have flexibility in the signing scheme. For example FIDO =
and Android both have privacy-preserving schemes were a signing key is =
shared by 100,000 devices. (Some use cases need privacy, some don=E2=80=99=
t, perhaps because of legal agreements with customers, and correlation =
between use cases and privacy schemes can=E2=80=99t be counted on for =
high-volume devices like mobile phones).

I don=E2=80=99t know what the right answer(s) is(are) in the design =
yet...

LL



> On Oct 17, 2018, at 4:26 PM, Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net> =
wrote:
>=20
> Hi Laurence,
>  I don't think there's ambiguity in the TCG case...  current work in =
attestation focuses on using the 802.1AR DevID spec, which corresponds =
exactly to one of your cases below -- it's a vendor, model and serial =
number.
>  It's true that TCG technology can be used to validate software =
integrity, but that's hardly the same as identity.
>  Considerations of user privacy commonly accepted in TCG would =
preclude the inclusion of software state as part of identity, =
practicalities aside.  In general, privacy considerations lead TCG to =
carefully avoid unauthorized disclosure of either software or hardware =
based assertions.
>  Let me know if I'm missing the point...
> Thanks
> /guy fedorkow, juniper networks
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>=20
> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 12:31 AM
> To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> Cc: Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com>; Hannes Tschofenig =
<Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>; rats@ietf.org; Jeremy O'Donoghue =
<jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>; Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr>; eat@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [EAT] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Rats] Attestation BoF charter =
updates?
>=20
> I think the TCG has a certain developed notion of identity that is =
different from others.  A way to get sharper about what a particular =
identity means is to describe the space and how the identifier selects =
in the space.  Here=E2=80=99s a few examples:
>=20
> - The space is physical human beings with fingers. A fingerprint =
scanner select one of these humans. This is typical biometric auth.
> - The space is humans that know a password. A password authenticator =
selects the humans that know the password. Typical authentication.
> - The space is humans as legal entities / citizens with criminal =
records, passports and such. A national ID selects.=20
> - The space is physical manufactured devices from one maker.  A serial =
number narrows it down to one physical device.
> - The space is physical devices from one maker. A model number or =
version, narrows down to a subset of these devices.
>=20
> My understanding of the TCG world is that identities goes beyond any =
of the above because they include things like the version of the SW and =
configuration of the device. The identity is largely a hash of an =
identifier of the physical device, various SW components and various =
configuration states.  The point being that a change in any of these is =
a change in the security characteristics of the device and if it was =
trusted with a particular key or particular data in the past, that trust =
should be revoked until re established.
>=20
> - The space is physical devices from any maker
>  + Measurement of the SW (the SW versions)
>     + Measurements of some configuration
>=20
> Changing any of these change the identity of the device.=20
>=20
> I know I hardly need to ask, but TCG folks, did I describe this =
correctly?
>=20
>=20
> So that said, many, perhaps most, use cases for EAT do not want this =
kind of device identity. It is not a prerequisite for trusting  claims =
coming from the device. In some cases this level of identity seems =
extremely disruptive as small SW upgrades could result in re enrollment =
of biometrics. We already are annoyed when we have to answer security =
questions when start using a service from a new device.=20
>=20
> I think this WG needs to address both this very tight TCG-style device =
identity and the more heuristic EAT-style claims-for-risk-engines. I =
could see multi-decade evolution where risk engine use cases want more =
and more of the tight TCG-style device identity as criminals become more =
adept at forging EAT-style claims. (Today risk engines work off of =
unsecured browser parameters).=20
>=20
> The Introduction in the charter seems entirely focused on the =
TCG-based identity use case. I think text should be added for EAT-style =
attestation. I will write some after some comments on this message.
>=20
> LL=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> On Oct 16, 2018, at 8:24 PM, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
>>=20
>> To quote Carsten, there is "the usual terminology problem about =
identity".
>>=20
>> Identifying vs. Identity brings back memories about an extensive =
discussion in SACM that in the end resulted in using Profiles...
>>=20
>> Profiles are the "things" that you can aggregate identity claims in =
(in SACM these claims are "Target Endpoint Characteristics", which are =
pretty much the same thing as Device Characteristics) - and you use the =
Profiles to (re-)identify target endpoints.
>>=20
>> In the scope of remote attestation procedures, I think that "just not =
calling" claim sets that are composed (amongst others) of identifying =
claims "identity documents" might just end up in making up another name =
for something that is effectively composing identity documents anyways. =
If calling the same thing something else helps in some way, I am all for =
it. But I am really not sure.
>>=20
>> That said, Ned's elaboration on the relationship of identity and =
attestation claims and corresponding claim semantics / trust semantics =
is spot on, I think.
>>=20
>> Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>>=20
>> Henk
>>=20
>> On 10/16/2018 03:51 PM, Smith, Ned wrote:
>>> Agree with Hannes that identity discussion can lead to confusion as =
identity is often highly dependent on some sort of context (domain of =
interpretation).
>>> In order to have productive conversation about attestation and =
identity, it may be important to understand that attestation semantics =
sets the context for identity.
>>> * Attestation attributes have trust semantics (and trust semantics =
are interpreted through the eyes of the verifier). Identity attributes =
may also have trust semantics (in addition to identity semantics) hence =
can be regarded as playing a role in both identity and attestation. =
Since RATS should be interested primarily in trust semantics, it makes =
sense to understand, discuss and consider identity in terms of its trust =
semantics. Hence identity attributes are only interesting to RATS if =
they are useful for evaluating trust semantics.
>>> * In a closed ecosystem, the trust characteristics and properties =
may be implied because there often exists out-of-band processes that =
ensure the characteristics are applied (for example, if an IT =
organization sets a policy that all asymmetric keys are to be hardened =
using a smartcard, they can apply a deployment process where the IT =
professional verifies the smartcard is used during enrollment.) But in a =
non-closed ecosystem, there isn't an assumption that out-of-band =
processes exist. Attestation attempts to make explicit what otherwise is =
implicit and therefore subject to misinterpretation if the verifier, =
relying party and attester are not part of the same closed ecosystem. =
Implicit attestation therefore can lead to semantic confusion if we're =
not careful. Therefore, the rigor of treating implicit attestation =
claims (assertions assumed to exist but not explicitly named) should =
nevertheless be defined explicitly. Then, if there is a need for =
implicit attestation, the specifications that describe them can describe =
them in terms of an explicit definition.
>>> * In the context of asserting trust characteristics, the verifier =
needs to know that a set of characteristics applies to the instance of =
the endpoint being evaluated (aka the attester). (Otherwise a MITM could =
supply characteristics that may be valid, but don=E2=80=99t apply to the =
specific instance). Consequently, it makes sense to consider that =
*attestation* keys are needed to authenticate the endpoint being =
evaluated. This doesn't imply an identity key couldn't double as an =
attestation key. But if it does, we care about its relevance to the =
attester endpoint.
>>> -Ned
>>> =EF=BB=BFOn 10/15/18, 6:49 PM, "Hannes Tschofenig" =
<Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> wrote:
>>>    Here are my 5 cents on the term 'identity'.
>>>         I have been working on identity management for many years =
(partially because of my OAuth co-chair role) and I have noticed that =
the use of the term "identity" tends to confuse more than it helps (even =
more so when the term is applied to devices and software rather than =
humans).
>>>         I believe we could get away with describing what we want =
without ever using the term.
>>>         In this context I would argue that we are about identifying =
different components, such as hardware and software.
>>>         Ciao
>>>    Hannes
>>>         -----Original Message-----
>>>    From: EAT <eat-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Smith, Ned
>>>    Sent: Monday, October 15, 2018 9:00 AM
>>>    To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>; =
rats@ietf.org; Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>; Denis =
<denis.ietf@free.fr>
>>>    Cc: eat@ietf.org
>>>    Subject: Re: [EAT] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Rats] Attestation BoF charter =
updates?
>>>         I agree with Henk's observation that there is opportunity to =
find common ground on identity as identity can be a collection of =
attributes, that if signed, becomes a set of verifiable claims (about =
identity attributes). Attestation has a similar structure in that it =
consists of a set of attributes, that if signed becomes a set of =
verifiable claims. The main difference between identity and attestation =
attributes is whether the attribute semantically relate to trust (vs. =
identity). For example, claims of security certification compliance =
resonates as attestation.
>>>         It may be possible to combine a set of attestation =
attributes in such a way that the combination uniquely identifies an =
entity. But that doesn't make it an identity system per se and shouldn't =
cause a conflict in charter goals with respect to other identity focused =
efforts in IETF.
>>>         Also, inclusion of attributes that don't have semantics that =
reasonably relate to trust should not be of interest to a working group =
focused on attestation.
>>>         -Ned
>>>         On 10/15/18, 3:53 PM, "EAT on behalf of Henk Birkholz" =
<eat-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> =
wrote:
>>>             Hi Jeremy & Denis,
>>>             all these points of view have merit, I think.
>>>             Please have a look at these quotes:
>>>> knowing the provenance of the device
>>>> having the entity creator/manufacturer provide a set of claims =
which can be verified
>>>> to know the characteristics of a device by issuing to the device a =
public key certificate which will only be issued to the device if it =
fulfills an expected set of functionalities.
>>>             To me, these descriptions seem to have different =
intents, scope or
>>>        audience and require most certainly different work-flows, but
>>>        semantically and in consequence representation-wise they also =
seem quite
>>>        related.
>>>             If you think of an identity document as a set of claims =
(potentially
>>>        including a public key), that is signed and that can match =
one or more
>>>        things, maybe all three types highlighted above are actually =
covered by
>>>        the same identity document concept?
>>>             With respect to identity documents, I think it is safe =
so say that we
>>>        can find common ground here rather easily. That said, the way =
how these
>>>        identity documents come into existence, when and how they are =
deployed
>>>        on the thing or associated with multiple things is another =
question. We
>>>        most certainly do not want to end up with a "signing fool" =
that does not
>>>        add value to the level of confidence (I am quoting Ned Smith =
here).
>>>             This has to be fleshed out explicitly for each scenario =
and the parts
>>>        that are reused in every scenario should get special =
attention in the
>>>        upcoming RATS architecture draft.
>>>             Identifying claims aggregated in an identity document =
most certainly can
>>>        include device characteristics, public key(s), or claims =
about the
>>>        intended functions and capabilities of the thing. Claims can =
even
>>>        originate from Claimants that are not the thing itself, but =
external
>>>        entities providing an assertion (e.g. these things are =
CC-certified).
>>>             All different composites of identifying claims have a =
specific shared
>>>        intend in this context though, I think: expressing =
Attestation
>>>        Provenance (again - one for one or more things of the same =
kind). And
>>>        all of them originate from Claimants and therefore use a root =
of trust
>>>        of measurement, I think.
>>>             That said, establishing trustworthy knowledge about =
attestation
>>>        provenance is only the first step and provides the foundation =
for more
>>>        complex attestation procedures. In any case, this seem to be =
required by
>>>        every scenario that was highlighted so far and therefore will =
most
>>>        certainly be covered in a deliverable.
>>>             IHTH,
>>>             Henk
>>>                  On 10/15/2018 12:22 PM, Jeremy O'Donoghue wrote:
>>>> On 12 Oct 2018, at 14:33, Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr
>>>> <mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr>> wrote:
>>>>> The "Problem Statement" continues as follows:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> (2) Today, there is no common, standard way for Relying Parties to
>>>>> know the provenance and characteristics of a device (e.g., an =
end-user
>>>>> device,
>>>>> platform or endpoint, servers, IoT devices, device subsystems and
>>>>> sub-modules) that may be requesting services.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Knowing the provenance of the device is not always necessary. What =
is
>>>>> important is to know that a specific set of functions is =
(securely)
>>>>> supported by the device.
>>>>> There already exists a common way to know the characteristics of a
>>>>> device by issuing to the device a public key certificate which =
will
>>>>> only be issued to the device
>>>>> if it fulfills an expected set of functionalities. In such a case =
a
>>>>> syntax for a trusted claim sets**is not needed.
>>>>>=20
>>>> This is indeed a possible way to address the problem, but suffers =
from
>>>> challenges which come down to:
>>>>=20
>>>> - Who issues such certificates. An option is that there is some =
form of
>>>> security certification behind this issuance otherwise it is of very
>>>> limited value.
>>>> - In order to capture the wide variety of different devices (I =
prefer
>>>> "entity" here as it is more general than "device"), many different =
forms
>>>> of such certificates would be required. This ends up being much the =
same
>>>> thing as a set of claims.
>>>>=20
>>>> Given the multiplicity of entities for which attestation might be
>>>> useful, it seems to me that having the entity creator/manufacturer
>>>> provide a set of claims which can be verified is more flexible than
>>>> requiring a certificate. It seems likely to me that where a formal
>>>> security certification is needed there will be a certificate issued =
by
>>>> the Certifying Body as one of the claims about an entity, but I can
>>>> think of many cases (supply chain management, to take just one =
example)
>>>> where provenance is by far the most useful information.
>>>>=20
>>>> I'm not in favour of changes to the charter in this direction.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The simplest cases should also be part of the framework.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Note: I personally appreciate that privacy is an aspect that
>>>>> will/should be taken into consideration.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Denis
>>>>>=20
>>>>>> As with the earlier draft, there are many references to verify =
and
>>>>>> verifier in the lead up to the deliverable but no deliverables =
describing
>>>>>> verification rules. I'd like to see rules in one of these =
documents and
>>>>>> think it worth citing in the deliverables. Are bindings to =
certificate
>>>>>> management protocols out of scope?
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> On 10/11/18, 9:49 AM, "RATS on behalf of Henk Birkholz"
>>>>>> <rats-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of =
henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>  wrote:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> sorry for the delay. Please find an updated charter proposal =
here:
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__github.com_ietf-2Dr=
ats_charter_blob_RC2_ietf-2Drats-2Dcharter.md&d=3DDwIFaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr=
6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DsebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VX=
hmfk&m=3Dp5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&s=3DrPzmwhcwy8eob4eMi=
wWzDg5DY-mcC5HYgQqhUGCZ2RI&e=3D
>>>>>>> The BoF proponents tried to merge all comments and proposals on
>>>>>>> keystores, existing solutions, provenance & device =
characteristics, etc
>>>>>>> that were raised on the list - and align them in homogeneous =
fashion.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> This draft is intended to focus the discussion and improve the =
wording.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Henk
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> On 10/06/2018 08:23 AM, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hi Henk,
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Bangkok IETF is getting close, will you be able to update the =
charter
>>>>>>>> for the attestation BoF to properly include EAT?  I sent you =
some text
>>>>>>>> that just needs to be pasted along with some comments. It =
doesn=E2=80=99t look
>>>>>>>> like there=E2=80=99s been any updates.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> LL
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> RATS mailing list
>>>>>>> RATS@ietf.org
>>>>>>> =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
n_listinfo_rats&d=3DDwIFaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI=
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>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> EAT mailing list
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>>>>>> =
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>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> EAT mailing list
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>>>>> =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
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>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> EAT mailing list
>>>> EAT@ietf.org
>>>> =
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>>>>=20
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>>>    IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments =
are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended =
recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the =
contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy =
the information in any medium. Thank you.
>>>=20
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>=20
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--Apple-Mail=_1929F32F-C0E5-453E-900C-76116FFAE57D
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Wasn=E2=80=99t saying there was ambiguity in the TCG case. =
Not being a TCGer, was just was trying to understand what the TCG =
definition is.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Your mentioning 802.1AR DevID helps a lot as I have some =
knowledge of it.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">I see now that my speculation about SW / config version was =
wrong. That=E2=80=99s fine. I only wrote it to try to get to =
clarity.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Thanks =
for help clarifying.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">In EAT, we defined a UEID for what TCGer=E2=80=99s mean by =
=E2=80=9Cidentity":</div><div class=3D""><pre class=3D"newpage" =
style=3D"font-size: 13.333333015441895px; margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;">   UEID's identify individual =
manufactured entities / devices such as a
   mobile phone, a water meter, a Bluetooth speaker or a networked
   security camera.  It may identify the entire device or a submodule or
   subsystem.  It does not identify types, models or classes of devices.
   It is akin to a serial number, though it does not have to be
   sequential. &nbsp;</pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: =
13.333333015441895px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: =
page;"><br class=3D""></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font face=3D"Helvetica" =
class=3D"">See <a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mandyam-eat-00#section-3.1" =
class=3D"">here</a> for more on UEID.</font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font =
face=3D"Helvetica" class=3D""><br class=3D""></font></pre><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;"><font face=3D"Helvetica" class=3D"">In EAT there is =
a strong desire to separate the signing key material from UEID to have =
flexibility in the signing scheme. For example FIDO and Android both =
have privacy-preserving schemes were a signing key is shared by 100,000 =
devices. (Some use cases need privacy, some don=E2=80=99t, perhaps =
because of legal agreements with customers, and correlation between use =
cases and privacy schemes can=E2=80=99t be counted on for high-volume =
devices like mobile phones).</font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font =
face=3D"Helvetica" class=3D""><br class=3D""></font></pre><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;"><font face=3D"Helvetica" class=3D"">I don=E2=80=99t =
know what the right answer(s) is(are) in the design =
yet...</font></pre><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">LL<br class=3D""><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote=
 type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Oct 17, 2018, at 4:26 PM, =
Guy Fedorkow &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gfedorkow@juniper.net" =
class=3D"">gfedorkow@juniper.net</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">Hi =
Laurence,<br class=3D""> &nbsp;I don't think there's ambiguity in the =
TCG case... &nbsp;current work in attestation focuses on using the =
802.1AR DevID spec, which corresponds exactly to one of your cases below =
-- it's a vendor, model and serial number.<br class=3D""> &nbsp;It's =
true that TCG technology can be used to validate software integrity, but =
that's hardly the same as identity.<br class=3D""> &nbsp;Considerations =
of user privacy commonly accepted in TCG would preclude the inclusion of =
software state as part of identity, practicalities aside. &nbsp;In =
general, privacy considerations lead TCG to carefully avoid unauthorized =
disclosure of either software or hardware based assertions.<br class=3D"">=
 &nbsp;Let me know if I'm missing the point...<br class=3D"">Thanks<br =
class=3D"">/guy fedorkow, juniper networks<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">-----Original Message-----<br class=3D"">From: Laurence =
Lundblade &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" =
class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt; <br class=3D"">Sent: Wednesday, =
October 17, 2018 12:31 AM<br class=3D"">To: Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">Cc: =
Smith, Ned &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com" =
class=3D"">ned.smith@intel.com</a>&gt;; Hannes Tschofenig &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com" =
class=3D"">Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com</a>&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" class=3D"">rats@ietf.org</a>; Jeremy =
O'Donoghue &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com" =
class=3D"">jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com</a>&gt;; Denis &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr" class=3D"">denis.ietf@free.fr</a>&gt;; =
<a href=3D"mailto:eat@ietf.org" class=3D"">eat@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">Subject: Re: [EAT] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Rats] Attestation BoF =
charter updates?<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I think the TCG has a =
certain developed notion of identity that is different from others. =
&nbsp;A way to get sharper about what a particular identity means is to =
describe the space and how the identifier selects in the space. =
&nbsp;Here=E2=80=99s a few examples:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">- The =
space is physical human beings with fingers. A fingerprint scanner =
select one of these humans. This is typical biometric auth.<br =
class=3D"">- The space is humans that know a password. A password =
authenticator selects the humans that know the password. Typical =
authentication.<br class=3D"">- The space is humans as legal entities / =
citizens with criminal records, passports and such. A national ID =
selects. <br class=3D"">- The space is physical manufactured devices =
from one maker. &nbsp;A serial number narrows it down to one physical =
device.<br class=3D"">- The space is physical devices from one maker. A =
model number or version, narrows down to a subset of these devices.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">My understanding of the TCG world is that =
identities goes beyond any of the above because they include things like =
the version of the SW and configuration of the device. The identity is =
largely a hash of an identifier of the physical device, various SW =
components and various configuration states. &nbsp;The point being that =
a change in any of these is a change in the security characteristics of =
the device and if it was trusted with a particular key or particular =
data in the past, that trust should be revoked until re established.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">- The space is physical devices from any =
maker<br class=3D""> &nbsp;+ Measurement of the SW (the SW versions)<br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;+ Measurements of some =
configuration<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Changing any of these change =
the identity of the device. <br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I know I =
hardly need to ask, but TCG folks, did I describe this correctly?<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">So that said, many, perhaps =
most, use cases for EAT do not want this kind of device identity. It is =
not a prerequisite for trusting &nbsp;claims coming from the device. In =
some cases this level of identity seems extremely disruptive as small SW =
upgrades could result in re enrollment of biometrics. We already are =
annoyed when we have to answer security questions when start using a =
service from a new device. <br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I think this WG =
needs to address both this very tight TCG-style device identity and the =
more heuristic EAT-style claims-for-risk-engines. I could see =
multi-decade evolution where risk engine use cases want more and more of =
the tight TCG-style device identity as criminals become more adept at =
forging EAT-style claims. (Today risk engines work off of unsecured =
browser parameters). <br class=3D""><br class=3D"">The Introduction in =
the charter seems entirely focused on the TCG-based identity use case. I =
think text should be added for EAT-style attestation. I will write some =
after some comments on this message.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">LL <br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">On Oct 16, 2018, at =
8:24 PM, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">To quote Carsten, there is "the usual =
terminology problem about identity".<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Identifying vs. Identity brings back memories about an =
extensive discussion in SACM that in the end resulted in using =
Profiles...<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Profiles are the "things" that =
you can aggregate identity claims in (in SACM these claims are "Target =
Endpoint Characteristics", which are pretty much the same thing as =
Device Characteristics) - and you use the Profiles to (re-)identify =
target endpoints.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">In the scope of remote =
attestation procedures, I think that "just not calling" claim sets that =
are composed (amongst others) of identifying claims "identity documents" =
might just end up in making up another name for something that is =
effectively composing identity documents anyways. If calling the same =
thing something else helps in some way, I am all for it. But I am really =
not sure.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">That said, Ned's elaboration on =
the relationship of identity and attestation claims and corresponding =
claim semantics / trust semantics is spot on, I think.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Henk<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">On 10/16/2018 03:51 PM, Smith, Ned wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Agree with Hannes that =
identity discussion can lead to confusion as identity is often highly =
dependent on some sort of context (domain of interpretation).<br =
class=3D"">In order to have productive conversation about attestation =
and identity, it may be important to understand that attestation =
semantics sets the context for identity.<br class=3D"">* Attestation =
attributes have trust semantics (and trust semantics are interpreted =
through the eyes of the verifier). Identity attributes may also have =
trust semantics (in addition to identity semantics) hence can be =
regarded as playing a role in both identity and attestation. Since RATS =
should be interested primarily in trust semantics, it makes sense to =
understand, discuss and consider identity in terms of its trust =
semantics. Hence identity attributes are only interesting to RATS if =
they are useful for evaluating trust semantics.<br class=3D"">* In a =
closed ecosystem, the trust characteristics and properties may be =
implied because there often exists out-of-band processes that ensure the =
characteristics are applied (for example, if an IT organization sets a =
policy that all asymmetric keys are to be hardened using a smartcard, =
they can apply a deployment process where the IT professional verifies =
the smartcard is used during enrollment.) But in a non-closed ecosystem, =
there isn't an assumption that out-of-band processes exist. Attestation =
attempts to make explicit what otherwise is implicit and therefore =
subject to misinterpretation if the verifier, relying party and attester =
are not part of the same closed ecosystem. Implicit attestation =
therefore can lead to semantic confusion if we're not careful. =
Therefore, the rigor of treating implicit attestation claims (assertions =
assumed to exist but not explicitly named) should nevertheless be =
defined explicitly. Then, if there is a need for implicit attestation, =
the specifications that describe them can describe them in terms of an =
explicit definition.<br class=3D"">* In the context of asserting trust =
characteristics, the verifier needs to know that a set of =
characteristics applies to the instance of the endpoint being evaluated =
(aka the attester). (Otherwise a MITM could supply characteristics that =
may be valid, but don=E2=80=99t apply to the specific instance). =
Consequently, it makes sense to consider that *attestation* keys are =
needed to authenticate the endpoint being evaluated. This doesn't imply =
an identity key couldn't double as an attestation key. But if it does, =
we care about its relevance to the attester endpoint.<br =
class=3D"">-Ned<br class=3D"">=EF=BB=BFOn 10/15/18, 6:49 PM, "Hannes =
Tschofenig" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com" =
class=3D"">Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Here are my 5 cents on the term 'identity'.<br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I have been =
working on identity management for many years (partially because of my =
OAuth co-chair role) and I have noticed that the use of the term =
"identity" tends to confuse more than it helps (even more so when the =
term is applied to devices and software rather than humans).<br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I believe we =
could get away with describing what we want without ever using the =
term.<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;In =
this context I would argue that we are about identifying different =
components, such as hardware and software.<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Ciao<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Hannes<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;-----Original =
Message-----<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;From: EAT &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">eat-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; On Behalf Of Smith, Ned<br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Sent: Monday, October 15, 2018 9:00 AM<br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;To: Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" class=3D"">rats@ietf.org</a>; Jeremy =
O'Donoghue &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com" =
class=3D"">jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com</a>&gt;; Denis &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr" =
class=3D"">denis.ietf@free.fr</a>&gt;<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:eat@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">eat@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Subject: =
Re: [EAT] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Rats] Attestation BoF charter updates?<br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I agree with =
Henk's observation that there is opportunity to find common ground on =
identity as identity can be a collection of attributes, that if signed, =
becomes a set of verifiable claims (about identity attributes). =
Attestation has a similar structure in that it consists of a set of =
attributes, that if signed becomes a set of verifiable claims. The main =
difference between identity and attestation attributes is whether the =
attribute semantically relate to trust (vs. identity). For example, =
claims of security certification compliance resonates as attestation.<br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;It may be =
possible to combine a set of attestation attributes in such a way that =
the combination uniquely identifies an entity. But that doesn't make it =
an identity system per se and shouldn't cause a conflict in charter =
goals with respect to other identity focused efforts in IETF.<br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Also, =
inclusion of attributes that don't have semantics that reasonably relate =
to trust should not be of interest to a working group focused on =
attestation.<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;-Ned<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;On 10/15/18, 3:53 PM, =
"EAT on behalf of Henk Birkholz" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org" class=3D"">eat-bounces@ietf.org</a> =
on behalf of <a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Hi=
 Jeremy &amp; Denis,<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;al=
l these points of view have merit, I think.<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Pl=
ease have a look at these quotes:<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">knowing the provenance of the device<br class=3D"">having the =
entity creator/manufacturer provide a set of claims which can be =
verified<br class=3D"">to know the characteristics of a device by =
issuing to the device a public key certificate which will only be issued =
to the device if it fulfills an expected set of functionalities.<br =
class=3D""></blockquote> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;To=
 me, these descriptions seem to have different intents, scope or<br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;audience and =
require most certainly different work-flows, but<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;semantically and in =
consequence representation-wise they also seem quite<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;related.<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;If=
 you think of an identity document as a set of claims (potentially<br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;including a public =
key), that is signed and that can match one or more<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;things, maybe all three types =
highlighted above are actually covered by<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;the same identity document =
concept?<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Wi=
th respect to identity documents, I think it is safe so say that we<br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;can find common =
ground here rather easily. That said, the way how these<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;identity documents come into =
existence, when and how they are deployed<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;on the thing or associated =
with multiple things is another question. We<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;most certainly do not want to =
end up with a "signing fool" that does not<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;add value to the level of =
confidence (I am quoting Ned Smith here).<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Th=
is has to be fleshed out explicitly for each scenario and the parts<br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;that are reused in =
every scenario should get special attention in the<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;upcoming RATS architecture =
draft.<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Id=
entifying claims aggregated in an identity document most certainly =
can<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;include =
device characteristics, public key(s), or claims about the<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;intended functions and =
capabilities of the thing. Claims can even<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;originate from Claimants that =
are not the thing itself, but external<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;entities providing an =
assertion (e.g. these things are CC-certified).<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Al=
l different composites of identifying claims have a specific shared<br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;intend in this =
context though, I think: expressing Attestation<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Provenance (again - one for =
one or more things of the same kind). And<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;all of them originate from =
Claimants and therefore use a root of trust<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;of measurement, I think.<br =
class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Th=
at said, establishing trustworthy knowledge about attestation<br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;provenance is only =
the first step and provides the foundation for more<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;complex attestation =
procedures. In any case, this seem to be required by<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;every scenario that was =
highlighted so far and therefore will most<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;certainly be covered in a =
deliverable.<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;IH=
TH,<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;He=
nk<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;On 10/15/2018 12:22 PM, Jeremy O'Donoghue =
wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">On 12 Oct =
2018, at 14:33, Denis &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr" =
class=3D"">denis.ietf@free.fr</a><br class=3D"">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr" =
class=3D"">mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">The "Problem Statement" =
continues as follows:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">(2) Today, there is =
no common, standard way for Relying Parties to<br class=3D"">know the =
provenance and characteristics of a device (e.g., an end-user<br =
class=3D"">device,<br class=3D"">platform or endpoint, servers, IoT =
devices, device subsystems and<br class=3D"">sub-modules) that may be =
requesting services.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Knowing the provenance =
of the device is not always necessary. What is<br class=3D"">important =
is to know that a specific set of functions is (securely)<br =
class=3D"">supported by the device.<br class=3D"">There already exists a =
common way to know the characteristics of a<br class=3D"">device by =
issuing to the device a public key certificate which will<br =
class=3D"">only be issued to the device<br class=3D"">if it fulfills an =
expected set of functionalities. In such a case a<br class=3D"">syntax =
for a trusted claim sets**is not needed.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></blockquote>This is indeed a possible way to address the =
problem, but suffers from<br class=3D"">challenges which come down =
to:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">- Who issues such certificates. An =
option is that there is some form of<br class=3D"">security =
certification behind this issuance otherwise it is of very<br =
class=3D"">limited value.<br class=3D"">- In order to capture the wide =
variety of different devices (I prefer<br class=3D"">"entity" here as it =
is more general than "device"), many different forms<br class=3D"">of =
such certificates would be required. This ends up being much the same<br =
class=3D"">thing as a set of claims.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Given =
the multiplicity of entities for which attestation might be<br =
class=3D"">useful, it seems to me that having the entity =
creator/manufacturer<br class=3D"">provide a set of claims which can be =
verified is more flexible than<br class=3D"">requiring a certificate. It =
seems likely to me that where a formal<br class=3D"">security =
certification is needed there will be a certificate issued by<br =
class=3D"">the Certifying Body as one of the claims about an entity, but =
I can<br class=3D"">think of many cases (supply chain management, to =
take just one example)<br class=3D"">where provenance is by far the most =
useful information.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I'm not in favour of =
changes to the charter in this direction.<br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D"">The simplest cases should also =
be part of the framework.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Note: I =
personally appreciate that privacy is an aspect that<br =
class=3D"">will/should be taken into consideration.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Denis<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">As with the earlier draft, there are many references to =
verify and<br class=3D"">verifier in the lead up to the deliverable but =
no deliverables describing<br class=3D"">verification rules. I'd like to =
see rules in one of these documents and<br class=3D"">think it worth =
citing in the deliverables. Are bindings to certificate<br =
class=3D"">management protocols out of scope?<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">On 10/11/18, 9:49 AM, "RATS on behalf of Henk Birkholz"<br =
class=3D"">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a> on behalf of <a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt; &nbsp;wrote:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Hi =
all,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">sorry for the delay. Please find an =
updated charter proposal here:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__github.com_=
ietf-2Drats_charter_blob_RC2_ietf-2Drats-2Dcharter.md&amp;d=3DDwIFaQ&amp;c=
=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DsebUyXCidr_CEuZObmO=
ub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&amp;m=3Dp5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyW=
GM&amp;s=3DrPzmwhcwy8eob4eMiwWzDg5DY-mcC5HYgQqhUGCZ2RI&amp;e=3D" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__github.c=
om_ietf-2Drats_charter_blob_RC2_ietf-2Drats-2Dcharter.md&amp;d=3DDwIFaQ&am=
p;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DsebUyXCidr_CEuZO=
bmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&amp;m=3Dp5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AU=
wyWGM&amp;s=3DrPzmwhcwy8eob4eMiwWzDg5DY-mcC5HYgQqhUGCZ2RI&amp;e=3D</a><br =
class=3D""></blockquote>The BoF proponents tried to merge all comments =
and proposals on<br class=3D"">keystores, existing solutions, provenance =
&amp; device characteristics, etc<br class=3D"">that were raised on the =
list - and align them in homogeneous fashion.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">This draft is intended to focus the discussion and improve =
the wording.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Henk<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">On =
10/06/2018 08:23 AM, Laurence Lundblade wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Hi Henk,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Bangkok =
IETF is getting close, will you be able to update the charter<br =
class=3D"">for the attestation BoF to properly include EAT? &nbsp;I sent =
you some text<br class=3D"">that just needs to be pasted along with some =
comments. It doesn=E2=80=99t look<br class=3D"">like there=E2=80=99s =
been any updates.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">LL<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></blockquote>_______________________________________________<br=
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Cc: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT] [EXTERNAL] Re:  Attestation BoF charter updates?
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I hope we don=E2=80=99t do any work related to identifying humans or =
accounts here. I only mentioned them for context in trying to figure out =
what people meant by identity.=20

LL

> On Oct 17, 2018, at 3:48 PM, Diego R. Lopez =
<diego.r.lopez@telefonica.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> May be this is a fairly na=C3=AFve proposal, but if we use =
"identification" rather than "identity" and therefore avoid the =
ontological implications of the latter, especially when it comes to the =
points it touches human-vs-machine issues?
>=20
> Be goode,
>=20
> --
> "Esta vez no fallaremos, Doctor Infierno"
>=20
> Dr Diego R. Lopez
> Telefonica I+D
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr2lopez/
>=20
> e-mail: diego.r.lopez@telefonica.com
> Tel:         +34 913 129 041
> Mobile:  +34 682 051 091
> ----------------------------------
>=20
> =EF=BB=BFOn 17/10/2018, 06:31, "EAT on behalf of Laurence Lundblade" =
<eat-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of lgl@island-resort.com> wrote:
>=20
>    I think the TCG has a certain developed notion of identity that is =
different from others.  A way to get sharper about what a particular =
identity means is to describe the space and how the identifier selects =
in the space.  Here=E2=80=99s a few examples:
>=20
>    - The space is physical human beings with fingers. A fingerprint =
scanner select one of these humans. This is typical biometric auth.
>    - The space is humans that know a password. A password =
authenticator selects the humans that know the password. Typical =
authentication.
>    - The space is humans as legal entities / citizens with criminal =
records, passports and such. A national ID selects.
>    - The space is physical manufactured devices from one maker.  A =
serial number narrows it down to one physical device.
>    - The space is physical devices from one maker. A model number or =
version, narrows down to a subset of these devices.
>=20
>    My understanding of the TCG world is that identities goes beyond =
any of the above because they include things like the version of the SW =
and configuration of the device. The identity is largely a hash of an =
identifier of the physical device, various SW components and various =
configuration states.  The point being that a change in any of these is =
a change in the security characteristics of the device and if it was =
trusted with a particular key or particular data in the past, that trust =
should be revoked until re established.
>=20
>    - The space is physical devices from any maker
>      + Measurement of the SW (the SW versions)
>         + Measurements of some configuration
>=20
>    Changing any of these change the identity of the device.
>=20
>    I know I hardly need to ask, but TCG folks, did I describe this =
correctly?
>=20
>=20
>    So that said, many, perhaps most, use cases for EAT do not want =
this kind of device identity. It is not a prerequisite for trusting  =
claims coming from the device. In some cases this level of identity =
seems extremely disruptive as small SW upgrades could result in re =
enrollment of biometrics. We already are annoyed when we have to answer =
security questions when start using a service from a new device.
>=20
>    I think this WG needs to address both this very tight TCG-style =
device identity and the more heuristic EAT-style =
claims-for-risk-engines. I could see multi-decade evolution where risk =
engine use cases want more and more of the tight TCG-style device =
identity as criminals become more adept at forging EAT-style claims. =
(Today risk engines work off of unsecured browser parameters).
>=20
>    The Introduction in the charter seems entirely focused on the =
TCG-based identity use case. I think text should be added for EAT-style =
attestation. I will write some after some comments on this message.
>=20
>    LL
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> On Oct 16, 2018, at 8:24 PM, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
>>=20
>> To quote Carsten, there is "the usual terminology problem about =
identity".
>>=20
>> Identifying vs. Identity brings back memories about an extensive =
discussion in SACM that in the end resulted in using Profiles...
>>=20
>> Profiles are the "things" that you can aggregate identity claims in =
(in SACM these claims are "Target Endpoint Characteristics", which are =
pretty much the same thing as Device Characteristics) - and you use the =
Profiles to (re-)identify target endpoints.
>>=20
>> In the scope of remote attestation procedures, I think that "just not =
calling" claim sets that are composed (amongst others) of identifying =
claims "identity documents" might just end up in making up another name =
for something that is effectively composing identity documents anyways. =
If calling the same thing something else helps in some way, I am all for =
it. But I am really not sure.
>>=20
>> That said, Ned's elaboration on the relationship of identity and =
attestation claims and corresponding claim semantics / trust semantics =
is spot on, I think.
>>=20
>> Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>>=20
>> Henk
>>=20
>> On 10/16/2018 03:51 PM, Smith, Ned wrote:
>>> Agree with Hannes that identity discussion can lead to confusion as =
identity is often highly dependent on some sort of context (domain of =
interpretation).
>>> In order to have productive conversation about attestation and =
identity, it may be important to understand that attestation semantics =
sets the context for identity.
>>> * Attestation attributes have trust semantics (and trust semantics =
are interpreted through the eyes of the verifier). Identity attributes =
may also have trust semantics (in addition to identity semantics) hence =
can be regarded as playing a role in both identity and attestation. =
Since RATS should be interested primarily in trust semantics, it makes =
sense to understand, discuss and consider identity in terms of its trust =
semantics. Hence identity attributes are only interesting to RATS if =
they are useful for evaluating trust semantics.
>>> * In a closed ecosystem, the trust characteristics and properties =
may be implied because there often exists out-of-band processes that =
ensure the characteristics are applied (for example, if an IT =
organization sets a policy that all asymmetric keys are to be hardened =
using a smartcard, they can apply a deployment process where the IT =
professional verifies the smartcard is used during enrollment.) But in a =
non-closed ecosystem, there isn't an assumption that out-of-band =
processes exist. Attestation attempts to make explicit what otherwise is =
implicit and therefore subject to misinterpretation if the verifier, =
relying party and attester are not part of the same closed ecosystem. =
Implicit attestation therefore can lead to semantic confusion if we're =
not careful. Therefore, the rigor of treating implicit attestation =
claims (assertions assumed to exist but not explicitly named) should =
nevertheless be defined explicitly. Then, if there is a need for =
implicit attestation, the specifications that describe them can describe =
them in terms of an explicit definition.
>>> * In the context of asserting trust characteristics, the verifier =
needs to know that a set of characteristics applies to the instance of =
the endpoint being evaluated (aka the attester). (Otherwise a MITM could =
supply characteristics that may be valid, but don=E2=80=99t apply to the =
specific instance). Consequently, it makes sense to consider that =
*attestation* keys are needed to authenticate the endpoint being =
evaluated. This doesn't imply an identity key couldn't double as an =
attestation key. But if it does, we care about its relevance to the =
attester endpoint.
>>> -Ned
>>> On 10/15/18, 6:49 PM, "Hannes Tschofenig" =
<Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> wrote:
>>>    Here are my 5 cents on the term 'identity'.
>>>         I have been working on identity management for many years =
(partially because of my OAuth co-chair role) and I have noticed that =
the use of the term "identity" tends to confuse more than it helps (even =
more so when the term is applied to devices and software rather than =
humans).
>>>         I believe we could get away with describing what we want =
without ever using the term.
>>>         In this context I would argue that we are about identifying =
different components, such as hardware and software.
>>>         Ciao
>>>    Hannes
>>>         -----Original Message-----
>>>    From: EAT <eat-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Smith, Ned
>>>    Sent: Monday, October 15, 2018 9:00 AM
>>>    To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>; =
rats@ietf.org; Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>; Denis =
<denis.ietf@free.fr>
>>>    Cc: eat@ietf.org
>>>    Subject: Re: [EAT] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Rats] Attestation BoF charter =
updates?
>>>         I agree with Henk's observation that there is opportunity to =
find common ground on identity as identity can be a collection of =
attributes, that if signed, becomes a set of verifiable claims (about =
identity attributes). Attestation has a similar structure in that it =
consists of a set of attributes, that if signed becomes a set of =
verifiable claims. The main difference between identity and attestation =
attributes is whether the attribute semantically relate to trust (vs. =
identity). For example, claims of security certification compliance =
resonates as attestation.
>>>         It may be possible to combine a set of attestation =
attributes in such a way that the combination uniquely identifies an =
entity. But that doesn't make it an identity system per se and shouldn't =
cause a conflict in charter goals with respect to other identity focused =
efforts in IETF.
>>>         Also, inclusion of attributes that don't have semantics that =
reasonably relate to trust should not be of interest to a working group =
focused on attestation.
>>>         -Ned
>>>         On 10/15/18, 3:53 PM, "EAT on behalf of Henk Birkholz" =
<eat-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> =
wrote:
>>>             Hi Jeremy & Denis,
>>>             all these points of view have merit, I think.
>>>             Please have a look at these quotes:
>>>> knowing the provenance of the device
>>>> having the entity creator/manufacturer provide a set of claims =
which can be verified
>>>> to know the characteristics of a device by issuing to the device a =
public key certificate which will only be issued to the device if it =
fulfills an expected set of functionalities.
>>>             To me, these descriptions seem to have different =
intents, scope or
>>>        audience and require most certainly different work-flows, but
>>>        semantically and in consequence representation-wise they also =
seem quite
>>>        related.
>>>             If you think of an identity document as a set of claims =
(potentially
>>>        including a public key), that is signed and that can match =
one or more
>>>        things, maybe all three types highlighted above are actually =
covered by
>>>        the same identity document concept?
>>>             With respect to identity documents, I think it is safe =
so say that we
>>>        can find common ground here rather easily. That said, the way =
how these
>>>        identity documents come into existence, when and how they are =
deployed
>>>        on the thing or associated with multiple things is another =
question. We
>>>        most certainly do not want to end up with a "signing fool" =
that does not
>>>        add value to the level of confidence (I am quoting Ned Smith =
here).
>>>             This has to be fleshed out explicitly for each scenario =
and the parts
>>>        that are reused in every scenario should get special =
attention in the
>>>        upcoming RATS architecture draft.
>>>             Identifying claims aggregated in an identity document =
most certainly can
>>>        include device characteristics, public key(s), or claims =
about the
>>>        intended functions and capabilities of the thing. Claims can =
even
>>>        originate from Claimants that are not the thing itself, but =
external
>>>        entities providing an assertion (e.g. these things are =
CC-certified).
>>>             All different composites of identifying claims have a =
specific shared
>>>        intend in this context though, I think: expressing =
Attestation
>>>        Provenance (again - one for one or more things of the same =
kind). And
>>>        all of them originate from Claimants and therefore use a root =
of trust
>>>        of measurement, I think.
>>>             That said, establishing trustworthy knowledge about =
attestation
>>>        provenance is only the first step and provides the foundation =
for more
>>>        complex attestation procedures. In any case, this seem to be =
required by
>>>        every scenario that was highlighted so far and therefore will =
most
>>>        certainly be covered in a deliverable.
>>>             IHTH,
>>>             Henk
>>>                  On 10/15/2018 12:22 PM, Jeremy O'Donoghue wrote:
>>>> On 12 Oct 2018, at 14:33, Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr
>>>> <mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr>> wrote:
>>>>> The "Problem Statement" continues as follows:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> (2) Today, there is no common, standard way for Relying Parties to
>>>>> know the provenance and characteristics of a device (e.g., an =
end-user
>>>>> device,
>>>>> platform or endpoint, servers, IoT devices, device subsystems and
>>>>> sub-modules) that may be requesting services.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Knowing the provenance of the device is not always necessary. What =
is
>>>>> important is to know that a specific set of functions is =
(securely)
>>>>> supported by the device.
>>>>> There already exists a common way to know the characteristics of a
>>>>> device by issuing to the device a public key certificate which =
will
>>>>> only be issued to the device
>>>>> if it fulfills an expected set of functionalities. In such a case =
a
>>>>> syntax for a trusted claim sets**is not needed.
>>>>>=20
>>>> This is indeed a possible way to address the problem, but suffers =
from
>>>> challenges which come down to:
>>>>=20
>>>> - Who issues such certificates. An option is that there is some =
form of
>>>> security certification behind this issuance otherwise it is of very
>>>> limited value.
>>>> - In order to capture the wide variety of different devices (I =
prefer
>>>> "entity" here as it is more general than "device"), many different =
forms
>>>> of such certificates would be required. This ends up being much the =
same
>>>> thing as a set of claims.
>>>>=20
>>>> Given the multiplicity of entities for which attestation might be
>>>> useful, it seems to me that having the entity creator/manufacturer
>>>> provide a set of claims which can be verified is more flexible than
>>>> requiring a certificate. It seems likely to me that where a formal
>>>> security certification is needed there will be a certificate issued =
by
>>>> the Certifying Body as one of the claims about an entity, but I can
>>>> think of many cases (supply chain management, to take just one =
example)
>>>> where provenance is by far the most useful information.
>>>>=20
>>>> I'm not in favour of changes to the charter in this direction.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The simplest cases should also be part of the framework.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Note: I personally appreciate that privacy is an aspect that
>>>>> will/should be taken into consideration.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Denis
>>>>>=20
>>>>>> As with the earlier draft, there are many references to verify =
and
>>>>>> verifier in the lead up to the deliverable but no deliverables =
describing
>>>>>> verification rules. I'd like to see rules in one of these =
documents and
>>>>>> think it worth citing in the deliverables. Are bindings to =
certificate
>>>>>> management protocols out of scope?
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> On 10/11/18, 9:49 AM, "RATS on behalf of Henk Birkholz"
>>>>>> <rats-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of =
henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>  wrote:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> sorry for the delay. Please find an updated charter proposal =
here:
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> =
https://github.com/ietf-rats/charter/blob/RC2/ietf-rats-charter.md
>>>>>>> The BoF proponents tried to merge all comments and proposals on
>>>>>>> keystores, existing solutions, provenance & device =
characteristics, etc
>>>>>>> that were raised on the list - and align them in homogeneous =
fashion.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> This draft is intended to focus the discussion and improve the =
wording.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Henk
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> On 10/06/2018 08:23 AM, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hi Henk,
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Bangkok IETF is getting close, will you be able to update the =
charter
>>>>>>>> for the attestation BoF to properly include EAT?  I sent you =
some text
>>>>>>>> that just needs to be pasted along with some comments. It =
doesn=E2=80=99t look
>>>>>>>> like there=E2=80=99s been any updates.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> LL
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> RATS mailing list
>>>>>>> RATS@ietf.org
>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> EAT mailing list
>>>>>> EAT@ietf.org
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> EAT mailing list
>>>>> EAT@ietf.org <mailto:EAT@ietf.org>
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> EAT mailing list
>>>> EAT@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat
>>>>=20
>>>             _______________________________________________
>>>        EAT mailing list
>>>        EAT@ietf.org
>>>        https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat
>>>              _______________________________________________
>>>    EAT mailing list
>>>    EAT@ietf.org
>>>    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat
>>>    IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments =
are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended =
recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the =
contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy =
the information in any medium. Thank you.
>>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> EAT mailing list
>> EAT@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat
>=20
>    _______________________________________________
>    EAT mailing list
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> ________________________________
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From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT] [EXTERNAL] Re:  Attestation BoF charter updates?
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Hi Laurence,

maybe I understand now where the general confusion is originating from.

I dug through some parts of the EAT draft again and could it be that 
UIED are identifier and not an identities? They literally are claims 
(aka assertions) that can be signed as content of a CWT as illustrated in

> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mandyam-eat-00#section-1.4.2

1.4.2. talks about identity documents by mentioning "X.509 certificate 
chains or something similar but different". But as you highlighted 
anything with regard to that is explicitly intended _not_ to go into the 
EAT claim set as content, but is stored on the thing (or maybe on a 
thing that signs "on behalf of" the thing the EAT is about?) and 
consequently is only used to potentially sign the EAT claim set (via 
COSE). Is that correct?

As a result, an EAT would never be able to act as an identity document 
itself, but the key material that comes along with an x.509 certificate 
(as one example of many highlighted) could be used to sign the EAT.

RATS are able to use the "X.509 certificate chains or something similar 
but different" and the corresponding key material comes along with a 
certificate (as one example amongst others) to establish Attestation 
Provenance.

Viele Grüße,

Henk

On 10/17/2018 01:19 PM, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
> Wasn’t saying there was ambiguity in the TCG case. Not being a TCGer, 
> was just was trying to understand what the TCG definition is.
> 
> Your mentioning 802.1AR DevID helps a lot as I have some knowledge of it.
> 
> I see now that my speculation about SW / config version was wrong. 
> That’s fine. I only wrote it to try to get to clarity.
> 
> Thanks for help clarifying.
> 
> In EAT, we defined a UEID for what TCGer’s mean by “identity":
> 
>     UEID's identify individual manufactured entities / devices such as a
>     mobile phone, a water meter, a Bluetooth speaker or a networked
>     security camera.  It may identify the entire device or a submodule or
>     subsystem.  It does not identify types, models or classes of devices.
>     It is akin to a serial number, though it does not have to be
>     sequential.
> 
> 
> See here <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mandyam-eat-00#section-3.1> 
> for more on UEID.
> 
> 
> In EAT there is a strong desire to separate the signing key material 
> from UEID to have flexibility in the signing scheme. For example FIDO 
> and Android both have privacy-preserving schemes were a signing key is 
> shared by 100,000 devices. (Some use cases need privacy, some don’t, 
> perhaps because of legal agreements with customers, and correlation 
> between use cases and privacy schemes can’t be counted on for 
> high-volume devices like mobile phones).
> 
> 
> I don’t know what the right answer(s) is(are) in the design yet...
> 
> 
> LL
> 
> 
> 
>> On Oct 17, 2018, at 4:26 PM, Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net 
>> <mailto:gfedorkow@juniper.net>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Laurence,
>>  I don't think there's ambiguity in the TCG case...  current work in 
>> attestation focuses on using the 802.1AR DevID spec, which corresponds 
>> exactly to one of your cases below -- it's a vendor, model and serial 
>> number.
>>  It's true that TCG technology can be used to validate software 
>> integrity, but that's hardly the same as identity.
>>  Considerations of user privacy commonly accepted in TCG would 
>> preclude the inclusion of software state as part of identity, 
>> practicalities aside.  In general, privacy considerations lead TCG to 
>> carefully avoid unauthorized disclosure of either software or hardware 
>> based assertions.
>>  Let me know if I'm missing the point...
>> Thanks
>> /guy fedorkow, juniper networks
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com 
>> <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>>
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 12:31 AM
>> To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de 
>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>
>> Cc: Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com <mailto:ned.smith@intel.com>>; 
>> Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com 
>> <mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>>; rats@ietf.org 
>> <mailto:rats@ietf.org>; Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com 
>> <mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>>; Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr 
>> <mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr>>; eat@ietf.org <mailto:eat@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [EAT] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Rats] Attestation BoF charter updates?
>>
>> I think the TCG has a certain developed notion of identity that is 
>> different from others.  A way to get sharper about what a particular 
>> identity means is to describe the space and how the identifier selects 
>> in the space.  Here’s a few examples:
>>
>> - The space is physical human beings with fingers. A fingerprint 
>> scanner select one of these humans. This is typical biometric auth.
>> - The space is humans that know a password. A password authenticator 
>> selects the humans that know the password. Typical authentication.
>> - The space is humans as legal entities / citizens with criminal 
>> records, passports and such. A national ID selects.
>> - The space is physical manufactured devices from one maker.  A serial 
>> number narrows it down to one physical device.
>> - The space is physical devices from one maker. A model number or 
>> version, narrows down to a subset of these devices.
>>
>> My understanding of the TCG world is that identities goes beyond any 
>> of the above because they include things like the version of the SW 
>> and configuration of the device. The identity is largely a hash of an 
>> identifier of the physical device, various SW components and various 
>> configuration states.  The point being that a change in any of these 
>> is a change in the security characteristics of the device and if it 
>> was trusted with a particular key or particular data in the past, that 
>> trust should be revoked until re established.
>>
>> - The space is physical devices from any maker
>>  + Measurement of the SW (the SW versions)
>>     + Measurements of some configuration
>>
>> Changing any of these change the identity of the device.
>>
>> I know I hardly need to ask, but TCG folks, did I describe this correctly?
>>
>>
>> So that said, many, perhaps most, use cases for EAT do not want this 
>> kind of device identity. It is not a prerequisite for trusting  claims 
>> coming from the device. In some cases this level of identity seems 
>> extremely disruptive as small SW upgrades could result in re 
>> enrollment of biometrics. We already are annoyed when we have to 
>> answer security questions when start using a service from a new device.
>>
>> I think this WG needs to address both this very tight TCG-style device 
>> identity and the more heuristic EAT-style claims-for-risk-engines. I 
>> could see multi-decade evolution where risk engine use cases want more 
>> and more of the tight TCG-style device identity as criminals become 
>> more adept at forging EAT-style claims. (Today risk engines work off 
>> of unsecured browser parameters).
>>
>> The Introduction in the charter seems entirely focused on the 
>> TCG-based identity use case. I think text should be added for 
>> EAT-style attestation. I will write some after some comments on this 
>> message.
>>
>> LL
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Oct 16, 2018, at 8:24 PM, Henk Birkholz 
>>> <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de 
>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
>>>
>>> To quote Carsten, there is "the usual terminology problem about 
>>> identity".
>>>
>>> Identifying vs. Identity brings back memories about an extensive 
>>> discussion in SACM that in the end resulted in using Profiles...
>>>
>>> Profiles are the "things" that you can aggregate identity claims in 
>>> (in SACM these claims are "Target Endpoint Characteristics", which 
>>> are pretty much the same thing as Device Characteristics) - and you 
>>> use the Profiles to (re-)identify target endpoints.
>>>
>>> In the scope of remote attestation procedures, I think that "just not 
>>> calling" claim sets that are composed (amongst others) of identifying 
>>> claims "identity documents" might just end up in making up another 
>>> name for something that is effectively composing identity documents 
>>> anyways. If calling the same thing something else helps in some way, 
>>> I am all for it. But I am really not sure.
>>>
>>> That said, Ned's elaboration on the relationship of identity and 
>>> attestation claims and corresponding claim semantics / trust 
>>> semantics is spot on, I think.
>>>
>>> Viele Grüße,
>>>
>>> Henk
>>>
>>> On 10/16/2018 03:51 PM, Smith, Ned wrote:
>>>> Agree with Hannes that identity discussion can lead to confusion as 
>>>> identity is often highly dependent on some sort of context (domain 
>>>> of interpretation).
>>>> In order to have productive conversation about attestation and 
>>>> identity, it may be important to understand that attestation 
>>>> semantics sets the context for identity.
>>>> * Attestation attributes have trust semantics (and trust semantics 
>>>> are interpreted through the eyes of the verifier). Identity 
>>>> attributes may also have trust semantics (in addition to identity 
>>>> semantics) hence can be regarded as playing a role in both identity 
>>>> and attestation. Since RATS should be interested primarily in trust 
>>>> semantics, it makes sense to understand, discuss and consider 
>>>> identity in terms of its trust semantics. Hence identity attributes 
>>>> are only interesting to RATS if they are useful for evaluating trust 
>>>> semantics.
>>>> * In a closed ecosystem, the trust characteristics and properties 
>>>> may be implied because there often exists out-of-band processes that 
>>>> ensure the characteristics are applied (for example, if an IT 
>>>> organization sets a policy that all asymmetric keys are to be 
>>>> hardened using a smartcard, they can apply a deployment process 
>>>> where the IT professional verifies the smartcard is used during 
>>>> enrollment.) But in a non-closed ecosystem, there isn't an 
>>>> assumption that out-of-band processes exist. Attestation attempts to 
>>>> make explicit what otherwise is implicit and therefore subject to 
>>>> misinterpretation if the verifier, relying party and attester are 
>>>> not part of the same closed ecosystem. Implicit attestation 
>>>> therefore can lead to semantic confusion if we're not careful. 
>>>> Therefore, the rigor of treating implicit attestation claims 
>>>> (assertions assumed to exist but not explicitly named) should 
>>>> nevertheless be defined explicitly. Then, if there is a need for 
>>>> implicit attestation, the specifications that describe them can 
>>>> describe them in terms of an explicit definition.
>>>> * In the context of asserting trust characteristics, the verifier 
>>>> needs to know that a set of characteristics applies to the instance 
>>>> of the endpoint being evaluated (aka the attester). (Otherwise a 
>>>> MITM could supply characteristics that may be valid, but don’t apply 
>>>> to the specific instance). Consequently, it makes sense to consider 
>>>> that *attestation* keys are needed to authenticate the endpoint 
>>>> being evaluated. This doesn't imply an identity key couldn't double 
>>>> as an attestation key. But if it does, we care about its relevance 
>>>> to the attester endpoint.
>>>> -Ned
>>>> ﻿On 10/15/18, 6:49 PM, "Hannes Tschofenig" 
>>>> <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com <mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>> wrote:
>>>>    Here are my 5 cents on the term 'identity'.
>>>>         I have been working on identity management for many years 
>>>> (partially because of my OAuth co-chair role) and I have noticed 
>>>> that the use of the term "identity" tends to confuse more than it 
>>>> helps (even more so when the term is applied to devices and software 
>>>> rather than humans).
>>>>         I believe we could get away with describing what we want 
>>>> without ever using the term.
>>>>         In this context I would argue that we are about identifying 
>>>> different components, such as hardware and software.
>>>>         Ciao
>>>>    Hannes
>>>>         -----Original Message-----
>>>>    From: EAT <eat-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org>> On 
>>>> Behalf Of Smith, Ned
>>>>    Sent: Monday, October 15, 2018 9:00 AM
>>>>    To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de 
>>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>; rats@ietf.org 
>>>> <mailto:rats@ietf.org>; Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com 
>>>> <mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>>; Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr 
>>>> <mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr>>
>>>>    Cc: eat@ietf.org <mailto:eat@ietf.org>
>>>>    Subject: Re: [EAT] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Rats] Attestation BoF charter 
>>>> updates?
>>>>         I agree with Henk's observation that there is opportunity to 
>>>> find common ground on identity as identity can be a collection of 
>>>> attributes, that if signed, becomes a set of verifiable claims 
>>>> (about identity attributes). Attestation has a similar structure in 
>>>> that it consists of a set of attributes, that if signed becomes a 
>>>> set of verifiable claims. The main difference between identity and 
>>>> attestation attributes is whether the attribute semantically relate 
>>>> to trust (vs. identity). For example, claims of security 
>>>> certification compliance resonates as attestation.
>>>>         It may be possible to combine a set of attestation 
>>>> attributes in such a way that the combination uniquely identifies an 
>>>> entity. But that doesn't make it an identity system per se and 
>>>> shouldn't cause a conflict in charter goals with respect to other 
>>>> identity focused efforts in IETF.
>>>>         Also, inclusion of attributes that don't have semantics that 
>>>> reasonably relate to trust should not be of interest to a working 
>>>> group focused on attestation.
>>>>         -Ned
>>>>         On 10/15/18, 3:53 PM, "EAT on behalf of Henk Birkholz" 
>>>> <eat-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of 
>>>> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de 
>>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
>>>>             Hi Jeremy & Denis,
>>>>             all these points of view have merit, I think.
>>>>             Please have a look at these quotes:
>>>>> knowing the provenance of the device
>>>>> having the entity creator/manufacturer provide a set of claims 
>>>>> which can be verified
>>>>> to know the characteristics of a device by issuing to the device a 
>>>>> public key certificate which will only be issued to the device if 
>>>>> it fulfills an expected set of functionalities.
>>>>             To me, these descriptions seem to have different 
>>>> intents, scope or
>>>>        audience and require most certainly different work-flows, but
>>>>        semantically and in consequence representation-wise they also 
>>>> seem quite
>>>>        related.
>>>>             If you think of an identity document as a set of claims 
>>>> (potentially
>>>>        including a public key), that is signed and that can match 
>>>> one or more
>>>>        things, maybe all three types highlighted above are actually 
>>>> covered by
>>>>        the same identity document concept?
>>>>             With respect to identity documents, I think it is safe 
>>>> so say that we
>>>>        can find common ground here rather easily. That said, the way 
>>>> how these
>>>>        identity documents come into existence, when and how they are 
>>>> deployed
>>>>        on the thing or associated with multiple things is another 
>>>> question. We
>>>>        most certainly do not want to end up with a "signing fool" 
>>>> that does not
>>>>        add value to the level of confidence (I am quoting Ned Smith 
>>>> here).
>>>>             This has to be fleshed out explicitly for each scenario 
>>>> and the parts
>>>>        that are reused in every scenario should get special 
>>>> attention in the
>>>>        upcoming RATS architecture draft.
>>>>             Identifying claims aggregated in an identity document 
>>>> most certainly can
>>>>        include device characteristics, public key(s), or claims 
>>>> about the
>>>>        intended functions and capabilities of the thing. Claims can even
>>>>        originate from Claimants that are not the thing itself, but 
>>>> external
>>>>        entities providing an assertion (e.g. these things are 
>>>> CC-certified).
>>>>             All different composites of identifying claims have a 
>>>> specific shared
>>>>        intend in this context though, I think: expressing Attestation
>>>>        Provenance (again - one for one or more things of the same 
>>>> kind). And
>>>>        all of them originate from Claimants and therefore use a root 
>>>> of trust
>>>>        of measurement, I think.
>>>>             That said, establishing trustworthy knowledge about 
>>>> attestation
>>>>        provenance is only the first step and provides the foundation 
>>>> for more
>>>>        complex attestation procedures. In any case, this seem to be 
>>>> required by
>>>>        every scenario that was highlighted so far and therefore will 
>>>> most
>>>>        certainly be covered in a deliverable.
>>>>             IHTH,
>>>>             Henk
>>>>                  On 10/15/2018 12:22 PM, Jeremy O'Donoghue wrote:
>>>>> On 12 Oct 2018, at 14:33, Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr 
>>>>> <mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr>
>>>>> <mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr>> wrote:
>>>>>> The "Problem Statement" continues as follows:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (2) Today, there is no common, standard way for Relying Parties to
>>>>>> know the provenance and characteristics of a device (e.g., an end-user
>>>>>> device,
>>>>>> platform or endpoint, servers, IoT devices, device subsystems and
>>>>>> sub-modules) that may be requesting services.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Knowing the provenance of the device is not always necessary. What is
>>>>>> important is to know that a specific set of functions is (securely)
>>>>>> supported by the device.
>>>>>> There already exists a common way to know the characteristics of a
>>>>>> device by issuing to the device a public key certificate which will
>>>>>> only be issued to the device
>>>>>> if it fulfills an expected set of functionalities. In such a case a
>>>>>> syntax for a trusted claim sets**is not needed.
>>>>>>
>>>>> This is indeed a possible way to address the problem, but suffers from
>>>>> challenges which come down to:
>>>>>
>>>>> - Who issues such certificates. An option is that there is some form of
>>>>> security certification behind this issuance otherwise it is of very
>>>>> limited value.
>>>>> - In order to capture the wide variety of different devices (I prefer
>>>>> "entity" here as it is more general than "device"), many different 
>>>>> forms
>>>>> of such certificates would be required. This ends up being much the 
>>>>> same
>>>>> thing as a set of claims.
>>>>>
>>>>> Given the multiplicity of entities for which attestation might be
>>>>> useful, it seems to me that having the entity creator/manufacturer
>>>>> provide a set of claims which can be verified is more flexible than
>>>>> requiring a certificate. It seems likely to me that where a formal
>>>>> security certification is needed there will be a certificate issued by
>>>>> the Certifying Body as one of the claims about an entity, but I can
>>>>> think of many cases (supply chain management, to take just one example)
>>>>> where provenance is by far the most useful information.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not in favour of changes to the charter in this direction.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The simplest cases should also be part of the framework.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Note: I personally appreciate that privacy is an aspect that
>>>>>> will/should be taken into consideration.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Denis
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As with the earlier draft, there are many references to verify and
>>>>>>> verifier in the lead up to the deliverable but no deliverables 
>>>>>>> describing
>>>>>>> verification rules. I'd like to see rules in one of these 
>>>>>>> documents and
>>>>>>> think it worth citing in the deliverables. Are bindings to 
>>>>>>> certificate
>>>>>>> management protocols out of scope?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 10/11/18, 9:49 AM, "RATS on behalf of Henk Birkholz"
>>>>>>> <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf 
>>>>>>> of henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de 
>>>>>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>  wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> sorry for the delay. Please find an updated charter proposal here:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_ietf-2Drats_charter_blob_RC2_ietf-2Drats-2Dcharter.md&d=DwIFaQ&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=sebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&m=p5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&s=rPzmwhcwy8eob4eMiwWzDg5DY-mcC5HYgQqhUGCZ2RI&e=
>>>>>>>> The BoF proponents tried to merge all comments and proposals on
>>>>>>>> keystores, existing solutions, provenance & device 
>>>>>>>> characteristics, etc
>>>>>>>> that were raised on the list - and align them in homogeneous 
>>>>>>>> fashion.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This draft is intended to focus the discussion and improve the 
>>>>>>>> wording.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Viele Grüße,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Henk
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 10/06/2018 08:23 AM, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hi Henk,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Bangkok IETF is getting close, will you be able to update the 
>>>>>>>>> charter
>>>>>>>>> for the attestation BoF to properly include EAT?  I sent you 
>>>>>>>>> some text
>>>>>>>>> that just needs to be pasted along with some comments. It 
>>>>>>>>> doesn’t look
>>>>>>>>> like there’s been any updates.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> LL
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> RATS mailing list
>>>>>>>> RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_rats&d=DwIFaQ&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=sebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&m=p5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&s=xThsQTXgadltVkHTYpOWknadi7puxZt8O6XOIUm_bzo&e=
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> EAT mailing list
>>>>>>> EAT@ietf.org <mailto:EAT@ietf.org>
>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_eat&d=DwIFaQ&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=sebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&m=p5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&s=N7kKkDdCvl_MNmB3Guyg9HC-kQnMrX1cP5w44SbDsAw&e=
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> EAT mailing list
>>>>>> EAT@ietf.org <mailto:EAT@ietf.org> <mailto:EAT@ietf.org>
>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_eat&d=DwIFaQ&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=sebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&m=p5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&s=N7kKkDdCvl_MNmB3Guyg9HC-kQnMrX1cP5w44SbDsAw&e=
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> EAT mailing list
>>>>> EAT@ietf.org <mailto:EAT@ietf.org>
>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_eat&d=DwIFaQ&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=sebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&m=p5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&s=N7kKkDdCvl_MNmB3Guyg9HC-kQnMrX1cP5w44SbDsAw&e=
>>>>>
>>>>             _______________________________________________
>>>>        EAT mailing list
>>>> EAT@ietf.org <mailto:EAT@ietf.org>
>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_eat&d=DwIFaQ&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=sebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&m=p5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&s=N7kKkDdCvl_MNmB3Guyg9HC-kQnMrX1cP5w44SbDsAw&e=
>>>>              _______________________________________________
>>>>    EAT mailing list
>>>> EAT@ietf.org <mailto:EAT@ietf.org>
>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_eat&d=DwIFaQ&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=sebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&m=p5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&s=N7kKkDdCvl_MNmB3Guyg9HC-kQnMrX1cP5w44SbDsAw&e=
>>>>    IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments 
>>>> are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the 
>>>> intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not 
>>>> disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, 
>>>> or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> EAT mailing list
>>> EAT@ietf.org <mailto:EAT@ietf.org>
>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_eat&d=DwIFaQ&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=sebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&m=p5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&s=N7kKkDdCvl_MNmB3Guyg9HC-kQnMrX1cP5w44SbDsAw&e=
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> EAT mailing list
>> EAT@ietf.org <mailto:EAT@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat
> 


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CC: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, "Jeremy O'Donoghue" <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr>
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From nobody Wed Oct 17 07:40:36 2018
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From: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
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Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2018 16:40:17 +0200
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To: suit <suit@ietf.org>, teep@ietf.org, din@irtf.org, rats@ietf.org, eat@ietf.org
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Subject: [Rats] Constrained Node/Network Cluster @ IETF103: "FINAL" AGENDA
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Here is my usual eclectic condensed agenda based on the "FINAL" AGENDA
for IETF103.  A few changes from the DRAFT AGENDA.  I waited a bit
with sending this as a few more side meetings have become known, as
well.  Of course, "FINAL" doesn't mean final.

cbor/teep and 6tisch/ace (was suit) are annoying but probably livable.
qirg no longer conflicts with core :-).  dinrg is now on top of lpwan.
secdispatch on top of t2trg will all but make sure no security people
attend t2trg.

All times are ICT (Indochina Time) =3D=3D UTC +7 hours.  There is no
daylight saving time in effect in Thailand.  DST will have ended in
Europe by then (e.g., CET =3D UTC+0100) and will end in the US during
the initial weekend (On Sun, Nov 4; e.g. EST =3D UTC-0500).  (You can
get pure UTC times on https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/agenda-utc,
for those who want to listen from remote.)

Please note that the Friday schedule is still evolving; plan to stick
around until 13:20 or you may miss interesting conversations.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten

SATURDAY/SUNDAY, November 3/4. 2018
-- Hackathon (including various interops) (Centre Ville), e.g.:
   T2TRG WISHI, possibly some CBOR, LPWAN, TLS 1.3, EST-COAPS, TEEP
   Please see https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/103hackathon
-- Sun 1700-1900  Welcome Reception - Garden at Queen's Park
-- Sun 1800-2000  Hot RFC Lightning Talks - Chitlada 3

MONDAY, November 5, 2018

0900-1100  Morning Session I
Chitlada 2	ART	dispatch	Dispatch WG - Joint with ARTAREA
Meeting 1	OPS	v6ops	IPv6 Operations WG
Boromph. 1/2	RTG ***	roll	Routing Over Low power and Lossy =
networks WG
Meeting 2	SEC	oauth	Web Authorization Protocol WG

1120-1220  Morning Session II
Chitlada 1	IRTF	cfrg	Crypto Forum
Chitlada 2	TSV	tsvarea	Transport Area Open Meeting

1350-1550  Afternoon Session I
Boromph. 1/2	ART ***	core	Constrained RESTful Environments WG
Meeting 1	OPS	anima	Autonomic Networking Integrated Model =
and Approach WG
Chitlada 2	SEC	tls	Transport Layer Security WG
Chitlada 3	TSV	tsvwg	Transport Area Working Group WG

1610-1810  Afternoon Session II
Meeting 2	INT ***	6lo	IPv6 over Networks of =
Resource-constrained Nodes WG
Chitlada 1	IRTF	irtfopen	IRTF Open Meeting
Chitlada 2	SEC	mls	Messaging Layer Security WG

TUESDAY, November 6, 2018

0900-1100  Morning Session I
Chitlada 1	ART	httpbis	Hypertext Transfer Protocol WG
Meeting 1	INT ***	lpwan	IPv6 over Low Power Wide-Area Networks =
WG
Meeting 2	IRTF***	dinrg	Decentralized Internet Infrastructure =
Proposed RG
Boromph. 4	SEC	tokbind	Token Binding WG

1120-1220  Morning Session II
Chitlada 3	INT	ipwave	IP Wireless Access in Vehicular =
Environments WG
Chitlada 2	IRTF	qirg	Quantum Internet Proposed Research Group
Meeting 1	SEC	oauth	Web Authorization Protocol WG

1350-1550  Afternoon Session I
Chitlada 3	INT	6man	IPv6 Maintenance WG
Chitlada 2	SEC	rats	Remote ATtestation ProcedureS BOF
Chitlada 1	TSV	quic	QUIC WG

1610-1810  Afternoon Session II
Chitlada 1	IRTF	maprg	Measurement and Analysis for Protocols
Meeting 1	IRTF***	t2trg	Thing-to-Thing
Meeting 2	SEC	secdispatch	Security Dispatch WG
Pagoda -- 1700..1800 CACAO side meeting
Apartment 3 -- 1800..2000 IoT Onboarding side meeting (lear/mcr)

WEDNESDAY, November 7, 2018

0900-1100  Morning Session I
Chitlada 3	ART ***	cbor	Concise Binary Object Representation =
Maintenance and Extensions WG
Boromph. 3	RTG	bier	Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG
Meeting 2	SEC ***	teep	Trusted Execution Environment =
Provisioning WG
Chitlada 1	TSV	quic	QUIC WG

1120-1220  Morning Session II
Meeting 2	INT ***	lwig	Light-Weight Implementation Guidance WG
Chitlada 1	SEC	tls	Transport Layer Security WG
Chitlada 2	TSV	tsvwg	Transport Area Working Group WG

1350-1520  Afternoon Session I
Meeting 2	GEN	wugh	WGs Using GitHub BOF
Chitlada 3	INT	homenet	Home Networking WG
Meeting 1	IRTF	panrg	Path Aware Networking RG
-- 1400..1500 IoT Onboarding Mechanisms side meeting

1540-1710  Afternoon Session II
Chitlada 3	INT	intarea	Internet Area Working Group WG
Meeting 1	IRTF	pearg	Privacy Enhancements and Assessments =
Proposed Research Group
Boromph. 3	RTG	babel	Babel routing protocol WG
Boromph. 1/2	RTG	rift	Routing In Fat Trees WG
Meeting 2	TSV	taps	Transport Services WG

THURSDAY, November 8, 2018

0900-1100  Morning Session I
Chitlada 1	ART	httpbis	Hypertext Transfer Protocol WG
Meeting 2	IRTF	icnrg	Information-Centric Networking
Chitlada 2	SEC ***	suit	Software Updates for Internet of Things =
WG

1120-1220  Morning Session II
Chitlada 2	ART ***	core	Constrained RESTful Environments WG
Boromph. 1/2	RTG	bier	Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG
Chitlada 1	SEC	mls	Messaging Layer Security WG
Meeting 1	TSV	rmcat	RTP Media Congestion Avoidance =
Techniques WG

1350-1550  Afternoon Session I
Meeting 2	INT	dnssd	Extensions for Scalable DNS Service =
Discovery  WG
Chitlada 2	RTG	detnet	Deterministic Networking WG
Chitlada 1	SEC	saag	Security Area Open Meeting

1610-1810  Afternoon Session II
Boromph. 3	INT ***	6tisch	IPv6 over the TSCH mode of IEEE =
802.15.4e WG
Chitlada 3	RTG	rtgarea	Routing Area Open Meeting
Chitlada 1	SEC ***	ace	Authentication and Authorization for =
Constrained Environments WG
Boromph. 1/2	SEC	acme	Automated Certificate Management =
Environment WG

FRIDAY, November 9, 2018

Various ad-hoc meetings, please see
https://trac.ietf.org/trac/ietf/meeting/wiki/103sidemeetings#FRIDAY
Boromph. 4 -- 0900..1320 T2TRG work meeting
Boromph. 3 -- 1000..1200  COIN (Computing in the Network)


From nobody Thu Oct 18 11:37:46 2018
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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
To: "Diego R. Lopez" <diego.r.lopez@telefonica.com>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
CC: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr>
Thread-Topic: [EAT] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Rats] Attestation BoF charter updates?
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Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 18:37:21 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT] [EXTERNAL] Re:  Attestation BoF charter updates?
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From nobody Fri Oct 19 12:00:40 2018
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From: "\"IETF Secretariat\"" <agenda@ietf.org>
To: <cmorgan@amsl.com>, <rats-chairs@ietf.org>
Cc: rats@ietf.org, kaduk@mit.edu
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Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2018 11:56:33 -0700
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/dqTw4pFP6neaFX6qtIAtQRat6iw>
Subject: [Rats] rats - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 103
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Dear Cindy Morgan,

The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled.
Below is the scheduled session information followed by
the original request. 


    rats Session 1 (2:00 requested)
    Tuesday, 6 November 2018, Afternoon Session I 1350-1550
    Room Name: Chitlada 2 size: 250
    ---------------------------------------------


iCalendar: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/103/sessions/rats.ics

Request Information:


---------------------------------------------------------
Working Group Name: Remote ATtestation ProcedureS
Area Name: Security Area
Session Requester: Cindy Morgan

Number of Sessions: 1
Length of Session(s):  2 Hours
Number of Attendees: 100
Conflicts to Avoid: 
 First Priority: i2nsf sacm cbor core ace teep suit




People who must be present:
  Ned Smith
  Benjamin Kaduk
  Eric Voit
  Henk Birkholz
  Monty Wiseman

Resources Requested:

Special Requests:
  
---------------------------------------------------------


From nobody Fri Oct 19 22:55:15 2018
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To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
References: <5D773C02-5083-4B10-A705-782E28FD8ADB@island-resort.com> <f84515dd-2e1a-7e66-7c23-b16f8f425d2a@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT] Attestation BoF charter updates?
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I=E2=80=99d like to propose this for the Introduction in the charter. I =
tried pretty hard to write what I wanted through edits to the existing =
intro, but really couldn=E2=80=99t make it work, so this is mostly new =
text. Some phrases are re used. Apologies for not finding a better way =
to do this. I have tried to put all the ideas and concepts in Henk=E2=80=99=
s original charter intro in here, though I have gone for a more abstract =
conceptual level. A few more notes below.

RATS enables remote parties communicating with a device to evaluate the =
trustworthiness, device identity, origin of manufacture, system =
integrity, configuration, operational state and other characteristics of =
that device. Conceptually, the remote party ends up knowing a set of =
claims about the device and using them to make the evaluation. The =
claims may explicitly be transmitted or implicitly derived from other =
things known about the device. Various means are used to secure, or =
prove the security of, claims for the remote party. Signing of the =
claims is the most important but may not be the only means of securing =
the claims. These claims can provide evidence that a device supports a =
certain set of operations and functions and/or that it is actually the =
exact device it is supposed to be.

RATS includes the measurement of SW running on the device and securely =
conveying those measurements to the remote party.  These measurements =
enable tje remote party to evaluate device trustworthiness, that it =
operates as expected, does what is required and does not do other =
things.

RATS may include definition of procedures by which a remote party =
evaluates certain claims. For example, how some measurement or other =
claims are compared to expected values to evaluate trustworthiness of =
the device.

RATS may include the definition new protocols and/or definition of =
secured data structures (e.g., signed) that are carried in existing =
protocols.

RATS is general purpose and aims to address a broad range of uses cases =
including on-line banking, payment transactions, critical =
infrastructure, network security functions, constrained devices, =
business and government enterprises and management of end-user devices.

Notes:

I have avoided the use of the formally defined terms in the introduction =
so it can stand more on its own, is easier to understand and is less =
presumption about architectures and designs. Seems like it is work for =
the WG to define the terms and create the designs.
My use of the lower case =E2=80=9Cdevice=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Cclaim=E2=80=9D=
 and =E2=80=9Cremote party=E2=80=9D are just as broad concepts to be =
able to get the general idea across. The WG documents should use the =
more formal and specific definitions.
Hope I=E2=80=99ve covered both EAT and RATS concepts here. It was my =
goal.=20
While I used the term RATS, I still want the WG name change to CREATE.

LL


> On Oct 11, 2018, at 10:19 PM, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
>=20
> Hi all,
>=20
> sorry for the delay. Please find an updated charter proposal here:
>=20
>> https://github.com/ietf-rats/charter/blob/RC2/ietf-rats-charter.md
>=20
> The BoF proponents tried to merge all comments and proposals on =
keystores, existing solutions, provenance & device characteristics, etc =
that were raised on the list - and align them in homogeneous fashion.
>=20
> This draft is intended to focus the discussion and improve the =
wording.
>=20
> Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>=20
> Henk
>=20
> On 10/06/2018 08:23 AM, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>> Hi Henk,
>> Bangkok IETF is getting close, will you be able to update the charter =
for the attestation BoF to properly include EAT?  I sent you some text =
that just needs to be pasted along with some comments. It doesn=E2=80=99t =
look like there=E2=80=99s been any updates.
>> LL
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> EAT mailing list
> EAT@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">I=E2=80=99d like to propose this for the Introduction in the =
charter. I tried pretty hard to write what I wanted through edits to the =
existing intro, but really couldn=E2=80=99t make it work, so this is =
mostly new text. Some phrases are re used. Apologies for not finding a =
better way to do this. I have tried to put all the ideas and concepts in =
Henk=E2=80=99s original charter intro in here, though I have gone for a =
more abstract conceptual level. A few more notes below.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; =
border: none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><p =
style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:=

0in;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;
=
mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-bidi=
-theme-font:
minor-latin;color:#24292E" class=3D"">RATS enables remote parties =
communicating with a
device to evaluate the trustworthiness, device identity, origin of =
manufacture,
system integrity, configuration, operational state and other =
characteristics of
that device. Conceptually, the remote party ends up knowing a set of =
claims
about the device and using them to make the evaluation. The claims may
explicitly be transmitted or implicitly derived from other things known =
about
the device. Various means are used to secure, or prove the security of, =
claims for
the remote party. Signing of the claims is the most important but may =
not be
the only means of securing the claims. These claims can provide evidence =
that a
device supports a certain set of operations and functions and/or that it =
is
actually the exact device it is supposed to be.</span></p></div><div =
class=3D""><p =
style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:=

0in;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;
=
mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-bidi=
-theme-font:
minor-latin;color:#24292E" class=3D"">RATS includes the measurement of =
SW running on the
device and securely conveying those measurements to the remote party. =
&nbsp;These measurements enable tje remote party to
evaluate device trustworthiness, that it operates as expected, does what =
is required
and does not do other things.</span></p></div><div class=3D""><p =
style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:=

0in;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;
=
mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-bidi=
-theme-font:
minor-latin;color:#24292E" class=3D"">RATS may include definition of =
procedures by which a
remote party evaluates certain claims. For example, how some measurement =
or
other claims are compared to expected values to evaluate trustworthiness =
of the
device.</span></p></div><div class=3D""><p =
style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:=

0in;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;
=
mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-bidi=
-theme-font:
minor-latin;color:#24292E" class=3D"">RATS may include the definition =
new protocols and/or
definition of secured data structures (e.g., signed) that are carried in
existing protocols.</span></p></div><div class=3D""><p =
style=3D"margin-top:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:=

0in;background:white" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;
=
mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;mso-bidi=
-theme-font:
minor-latin;color:#24292E" class=3D"">RATS is general purpose and aims =
to address a broad
range of uses cases including on-line banking, payment transactions, =
critical
infrastructure, network security functions, constrained devices, =
business and
government enterprises and management of end-user =
devices.</span></p></div></blockquote>Notes:<div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></span></div><div =
class=3D""><ul class=3D"MailOutline"><li class=3D""><font size=3D"2" =
class=3D"">I have avoided the use of the formally defined
terms in the introduction so it can stand more on its own, is easier to =
understand and is less presumption about architectures and designs. =
Seems like it is work for the WG to define the terms and create the =
designs.</font></li><li class=3D"">My use of the lower case =
=E2=80=9Cdevice=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Cclaim=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cremote =
party=E2=80=9D are just as broad concepts to be able to get the general =
idea across. The WG documents should use the more formal and specific =
definitions.</li><li class=3D"">Hope I=E2=80=99ve covered both EAT and =
RATS concepts here. It was my goal.&nbsp;</li><li class=3D""><font =
size=3D"2" class=3D"">While I used the term RATS, I still want the WG =
name change to CREATE.</font></li></ul><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div>LL</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Oct =
11, 2018, at 10:19 PM, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">Hi =
all,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">sorry for the delay. Please find an =
updated charter proposal here:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-rats/charter/blob/RC2/ietf-rats-charter.md=
" =
class=3D"">https://github.com/ietf-rats/charter/blob/RC2/ietf-rats-charter=
.md</a><br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">The BoF proponents =
tried to merge all comments and proposals on keystores, existing =
solutions, provenance &amp; device characteristics, etc that were raised =
on the list - and align them in homogeneous fashion.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">This draft is intended to focus the discussion and improve =
the wording.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Henk<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">On =
10/06/2018 08:23 AM, Laurence Lundblade wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Hi Henk,<br class=3D"">Bangkok IETF is getting =
close, will you be able to update the charter for the attestation BoF to =
properly include EAT? &nbsp;I sent you some text that just needs to be =
pasted along with some comments. It doesn=E2=80=99t look like there=E2=80=99=
s been any updates.<br class=3D"">LL<br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">EAT mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:EAT@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">EAT@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 11:49:47 +0530
In-Reply-To: <9c73f9b7-9129-c273-254e-465f92ab3650@sit.fraunhofer.de>
Cc: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net>, Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr>, Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>
To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
References: <5D773C02-5083-4B10-A705-782E28FD8ADB@island-resort.com> <f84515dd-2e1a-7e66-7c23-b16f8f425d2a@sit.fraunhofer.de> <D7E5069D.C2E65%carl@redhoundsoftware.com> <c72a3b6c-88f2-d452-96be-947a4be1d9c8@free.fr> <73EF502E-B68C-4106-8311-4897B4F2DF8C@qti.qualcomm.com> <b6c9ff4a-cc35-8175-3294-4e6ec366409f@sit.fraunhofer.de> <615BB1D3-29E3-468B-B988-84852F47742C@intel.com> <VI1PR0801MB211230882A5B0D594D66DCFDFAFD0@VI1PR0801MB2112.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com> <71A01CDA-380F-4A57-B601-02F9A2699471@intel.com> <6f28e6a4-1930-84b2-1399-8aed75e3a6b4@sit.fraunhofer.de> <FB52EAA1-21F9-4792-B6A2-B58BBFBB53D6@island-resort.com> <BN7PR05MB4097DAA623B0F77573982910BAFF0@BN7PR05MB4097.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <04976C31-F18C-4F99-847D-110641DCDE80@island-resort.com> <9c73f9b7-9129-c273-254e-465f92ab3650@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: [Rats] Device Identity (was Re: [EAT] [EXTERNAL] Re: Attestation BoF charter updates?)
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I consider device identity an absolute critical part of our work. It is =
a critical part of most EAT use cases such as enrollment of IoT devices =
with IoT management systems. It is the first claim defined in EAT.=20

What is the definition of an =E2=80=9Cidentity document=E2=80=9D? Maybe =
you are thinking of it specifically as what was defined for IEEE Dev ID. =
If I recall, the identification claims for the device are in the subject =
DN of an X.509 certificate.=20

Seems like any EAT with an EUID in it could server well as an identity =
document too. It provides signed, secured proof of the identity of the =
device. It can include manufacturer info in addition to the EUID. The =
EAT style identity could be as tiny as 150 bytes in CBOR syntax. All you =
need to store on the device is the EUID and the signing key. Maybe they =
are even deterministically KDF=E2=80=99d from the same seed so you maybe =
you only need to store 32 bytes on the device.

EAT=E2=80=99s mention of X.509 in 1.4.2 is as one of many ways to =
establish key material so the remote / relying / verifying party can =
verify the signature. So yes, I think you have it correct below. =
(Technically speaking the private key associated with the X.509 cert is =
used to sign, not the X.509 cert or keys in the cert. The X.509 is only =
to help the verifier find and verify the verification key. You might =
even have a means to get it from some service based on a key ID and not =
even store it on the device).

It is an EAT design goal to keep all the claims in the signed payload. =
That includes identity of the device, identity of the manufacturer and =
so on. That way you can use many different signing schemes (ECDAA, =
symmetric key, non-X.509 public key, X.509 pubic key, simple public key =
with just a key id=E2=80=A6) with the same claims.

LL




> On Oct 17, 2018, at 5:49 PM, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Laurence,
>=20
> maybe I understand now where the general confusion is originating =
from.
>=20
> I dug through some parts of the EAT draft again and could it be that =
UIED are identifier and not an identities? They literally are claims =
(aka assertions) that can be signed as content of a CWT as illustrated =
in
>=20
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mandyam-eat-00#section-1.4.2
>=20
> 1.4.2. talks about identity documents by mentioning "X.509 certificate =
chains or something similar but different". But as you highlighted =
anything with regard to that is explicitly intended _not_ to go into the =
EAT claim set as content, but is stored on the thing (or maybe on a =
thing that signs "on behalf of" the thing the EAT is about?) and =
consequently is only used to potentially sign the EAT claim set (via =
COSE). Is that correct?
>=20
> As a result, an EAT would never be able to act as an identity document =
itself, but the key material that comes along with an x.509 certificate =
(as one example of many highlighted) could be used to sign the EAT.
>=20
> RATS are able to use the "X.509 certificate chains or something =
similar but different" and the corresponding key material comes along =
with a certificate (as one example amongst others) to establish =
Attestation Provenance.
>=20
> Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>=20
> Henk
>=20
> On 10/17/2018 01:19 PM, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>> Wasn=E2=80=99t saying there was ambiguity in the TCG case. Not being =
a TCGer, was just was trying to understand what the TCG definition is.
>> Your mentioning 802.1AR DevID helps a lot as I have some knowledge of =
it.
>> I see now that my speculation about SW / config version was wrong. =
That=E2=80=99s fine. I only wrote it to try to get to clarity.
>> Thanks for help clarifying.
>> In EAT, we defined a UEID for what TCGer=E2=80=99s mean by =
=E2=80=9Cidentity":
>>    UEID's identify individual manufactured entities / devices such as =
a
>>    mobile phone, a water meter, a Bluetooth speaker or a networked
>>    security camera.  It may identify the entire device or a submodule =
or
>>    subsystem.  It does not identify types, models or classes of =
devices.
>>    It is akin to a serial number, though it does not have to be
>>    sequential.
>> See here =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mandyam-eat-00#section-3.1> for more =
on UEID.
>> In EAT there is a strong desire to separate the signing key material =
from UEID to have flexibility in the signing scheme. For example FIDO =
and Android both have privacy-preserving schemes were a signing key is =
shared by 100,000 devices. (Some use cases need privacy, some don=E2=80=99=
t, perhaps because of legal agreements with customers, and correlation =
between use cases and privacy schemes can=E2=80=99t be counted on for =
high-volume devices like mobile phones).
>> I don=E2=80=99t know what the right answer(s) is(are) in the design =
yet...
>> LL
>>> On Oct 17, 2018, at 4:26 PM, Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net =
<mailto:gfedorkow@juniper.net>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Hi Laurence,
>>>  I don't think there's ambiguity in the TCG case...  current work in =
attestation focuses on using the 802.1AR DevID spec, which corresponds =
exactly to one of your cases below -- it's a vendor, model and serial =
number.
>>>  It's true that TCG technology can be used to validate software =
integrity, but that's hardly the same as identity.
>>>  Considerations of user privacy commonly accepted in TCG would =
preclude the inclusion of software state as part of identity, =
practicalities aside.  In general, privacy considerations lead TCG to =
carefully avoid unauthorized disclosure of either software or hardware =
based assertions.
>>>  Let me know if I'm missing the point...
>>> Thanks
>>> /guy fedorkow, juniper networks
>>>=20
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com =
<mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 12:31 AM
>>> To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>
>>> Cc: Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com <mailto:ned.smith@intel.com>>; =
Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com =
<mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>>; rats@ietf.org =
<mailto:rats@ietf.org>; Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com =
<mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>>; Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr =
<mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr>>; eat@ietf.org <mailto:eat@ietf.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [EAT] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Rats] Attestation BoF charter =
updates?
>>>=20
>>> I think the TCG has a certain developed notion of identity that is =
different from others.  A way to get sharper about what a particular =
identity means is to describe the space and how the identifier selects =
in the space.  Here=E2=80=99s a few examples:
>>>=20
>>> - The space is physical human beings with fingers. A fingerprint =
scanner select one of these humans. This is typical biometric auth.
>>> - The space is humans that know a password. A password authenticator =
selects the humans that know the password. Typical authentication.
>>> - The space is humans as legal entities / citizens with criminal =
records, passports and such. A national ID selects.
>>> - The space is physical manufactured devices from one maker.  A =
serial number narrows it down to one physical device.
>>> - The space is physical devices from one maker. A model number or =
version, narrows down to a subset of these devices.
>>>=20
>>> My understanding of the TCG world is that identities goes beyond any =
of the above because they include things like the version of the SW and =
configuration of the device. The identity is largely a hash of an =
identifier of the physical device, various SW components and various =
configuration states.  The point being that a change in any of these is =
a change in the security characteristics of the device and if it was =
trusted with a particular key or particular data in the past, that trust =
should be revoked until re established.
>>>=20
>>> - The space is physical devices from any maker
>>>  + Measurement of the SW (the SW versions)
>>>     + Measurements of some configuration
>>>=20
>>> Changing any of these change the identity of the device.
>>>=20
>>> I know I hardly need to ask, but TCG folks, did I describe this =
correctly?
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> So that said, many, perhaps most, use cases for EAT do not want this =
kind of device identity. It is not a prerequisite for trusting  claims =
coming from the device. In some cases this level of identity seems =
extremely disruptive as small SW upgrades could result in re enrollment =
of biometrics. We already are annoyed when we have to answer security =
questions when start using a service from a new device.
>>>=20
>>> I think this WG needs to address both this very tight TCG-style =
device identity and the more heuristic EAT-style =
claims-for-risk-engines. I could see multi-decade evolution where risk =
engine use cases want more and more of the tight TCG-style device =
identity as criminals become more adept at forging EAT-style claims. =
(Today risk engines work off of unsecured browser parameters).
>>>=20
>>> The Introduction in the charter seems entirely focused on the =
TCG-based identity use case. I think text should be added for EAT-style =
attestation. I will write some after some comments on this message.
>>>=20
>>> LL
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> On Oct 16, 2018, at 8:24 PM, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> To quote Carsten, there is "the usual terminology problem about =
identity".
>>>>=20
>>>> Identifying vs. Identity brings back memories about an extensive =
discussion in SACM that in the end resulted in using Profiles...
>>>>=20
>>>> Profiles are the "things" that you can aggregate identity claims in =
(in SACM these claims are "Target Endpoint Characteristics", which are =
pretty much the same thing as Device Characteristics) - and you use the =
Profiles to (re-)identify target endpoints.
>>>>=20
>>>> In the scope of remote attestation procedures, I think that "just =
not calling" claim sets that are composed (amongst others) of =
identifying claims "identity documents" might just end up in making up =
another name for something that is effectively composing identity =
documents anyways. If calling the same thing something else helps in =
some way, I am all for it. But I am really not sure.
>>>>=20
>>>> That said, Ned's elaboration on the relationship of identity and =
attestation claims and corresponding claim semantics / trust semantics =
is spot on, I think.
>>>>=20
>>>> Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>>>>=20
>>>> Henk
>>>>=20
>>>> On 10/16/2018 03:51 PM, Smith, Ned wrote:
>>>>> Agree with Hannes that identity discussion can lead to confusion =
as identity is often highly dependent on some sort of context (domain of =
interpretation).
>>>>> In order to have productive conversation about attestation and =
identity, it may be important to understand that attestation semantics =
sets the context for identity.
>>>>> * Attestation attributes have trust semantics (and trust semantics =
are interpreted through the eyes of the verifier). Identity attributes =
may also have trust semantics (in addition to identity semantics) hence =
can be regarded as playing a role in both identity and attestation. =
Since RATS should be interested primarily in trust semantics, it makes =
sense to understand, discuss and consider identity in terms of its trust =
semantics. Hence identity attributes are only interesting to RATS if =
they are useful for evaluating trust semantics.
>>>>> * In a closed ecosystem, the trust characteristics and properties =
may be implied because there often exists out-of-band processes that =
ensure the characteristics are applied (for example, if an IT =
organization sets a policy that all asymmetric keys are to be hardened =
using a smartcard, they can apply a deployment process where the IT =
professional verifies the smartcard is used during enrollment.) But in a =
non-closed ecosystem, there isn't an assumption that out-of-band =
processes exist. Attestation attempts to make explicit what otherwise is =
implicit and therefore subject to misinterpretation if the verifier, =
relying party and attester are not part of the same closed ecosystem. =
Implicit attestation therefore can lead to semantic confusion if we're =
not careful. Therefore, the rigor of treating implicit attestation =
claims (assertions assumed to exist but not explicitly named) should =
nevertheless be defined explicitly. Then, if there is a need for =
implicit attestation, the specifications that describe them can describe =
them in terms of an explicit definition.
>>>>> * In the context of asserting trust characteristics, the verifier =
needs to know that a set of characteristics applies to the instance of =
the endpoint being evaluated (aka the attester). (Otherwise a MITM could =
supply characteristics that may be valid, but don=E2=80=99t apply to the =
specific instance). Consequently, it makes sense to consider that =
*attestation* keys are needed to authenticate the endpoint being =
evaluated. This doesn't imply an identity key couldn't double as an =
attestation key. But if it does, we care about its relevance to the =
attester endpoint.
>>>>> -Ned
>>>>> =EF=BB=BFOn 10/15/18, 6:49 PM, "Hannes Tschofenig" =
<Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com <mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>> wrote:
>>>>>    Here are my 5 cents on the term 'identity'.
>>>>>         I have been working on identity management for many years =
(partially because of my OAuth co-chair role) and I have noticed that =
the use of the term "identity" tends to confuse more than it helps (even =
more so when the term is applied to devices and software rather than =
humans).
>>>>>         I believe we could get away with describing what we want =
without ever using the term.
>>>>>         In this context I would argue that we are about =
identifying different components, such as hardware and software.
>>>>>         Ciao
>>>>>    Hannes
>>>>>         -----Original Message-----
>>>>>    From: EAT <eat-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org>> =
On Behalf Of Smith, Ned
>>>>>    Sent: Monday, October 15, 2018 9:00 AM
>>>>>    To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>; rats@ietf.org =
<mailto:rats@ietf.org>; Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com =
<mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>>; Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr =
<mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr>>
>>>>>    Cc: eat@ietf.org <mailto:eat@ietf.org>
>>>>>    Subject: Re: [EAT] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Rats] Attestation BoF =
charter updates?
>>>>>         I agree with Henk's observation that there is opportunity =
to find common ground on identity as identity can be a collection of =
attributes, that if signed, becomes a set of verifiable claims (about =
identity attributes). Attestation has a similar structure in that it =
consists of a set of attributes, that if signed becomes a set of =
verifiable claims. The main difference between identity and attestation =
attributes is whether the attribute semantically relate to trust (vs. =
identity). For example, claims of security certification compliance =
resonates as attestation.
>>>>>         It may be possible to combine a set of attestation =
attributes in such a way that the combination uniquely identifies an =
entity. But that doesn't make it an identity system per se and shouldn't =
cause a conflict in charter goals with respect to other identity focused =
efforts in IETF.
>>>>>         Also, inclusion of attributes that don't have semantics =
that reasonably relate to trust should not be of interest to a working =
group focused on attestation.
>>>>>         -Ned
>>>>>         On 10/15/18, 3:53 PM, "EAT on behalf of Henk Birkholz" =
<eat-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of =
henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
>>>>>             Hi Jeremy & Denis,
>>>>>             all these points of view have merit, I think.
>>>>>             Please have a look at these quotes:
>>>>>> knowing the provenance of the device
>>>>>> having the entity creator/manufacturer provide a set of claims =
which can be verified
>>>>>> to know the characteristics of a device by issuing to the device =
a public key certificate which will only be issued to the device if it =
fulfills an expected set of functionalities.
>>>>>             To me, these descriptions seem to have different =
intents, scope or
>>>>>        audience and require most certainly different work-flows, =
but
>>>>>        semantically and in consequence representation-wise they =
also seem quite
>>>>>        related.
>>>>>             If you think of an identity document as a set of =
claims (potentially
>>>>>        including a public key), that is signed and that can match =
one or more
>>>>>        things, maybe all three types highlighted above are =
actually covered by
>>>>>        the same identity document concept?
>>>>>             With respect to identity documents, I think it is safe =
so say that we
>>>>>        can find common ground here rather easily. That said, the =
way how these
>>>>>        identity documents come into existence, when and how they =
are deployed
>>>>>        on the thing or associated with multiple things is another =
question. We
>>>>>        most certainly do not want to end up with a "signing fool" =
that does not
>>>>>        add value to the level of confidence (I am quoting Ned =
Smith here).
>>>>>             This has to be fleshed out explicitly for each =
scenario and the parts
>>>>>        that are reused in every scenario should get special =
attention in the
>>>>>        upcoming RATS architecture draft.
>>>>>             Identifying claims aggregated in an identity document =
most certainly can
>>>>>        include device characteristics, public key(s), or claims =
about the
>>>>>        intended functions and capabilities of the thing. Claims =
can even
>>>>>        originate from Claimants that are not the thing itself, but =
external
>>>>>        entities providing an assertion (e.g. these things are =
CC-certified).
>>>>>             All different composites of identifying claims have a =
specific shared
>>>>>        intend in this context though, I think: expressing =
Attestation
>>>>>        Provenance (again - one for one or more things of the same =
kind). And
>>>>>        all of them originate from Claimants and therefore use a =
root of trust
>>>>>        of measurement, I think.
>>>>>             That said, establishing trustworthy knowledge about =
attestation
>>>>>        provenance is only the first step and provides the =
foundation for more
>>>>>        complex attestation procedures. In any case, this seem to =
be required by
>>>>>        every scenario that was highlighted so far and therefore =
will most
>>>>>        certainly be covered in a deliverable.
>>>>>             IHTH,
>>>>>             Henk
>>>>>                  On 10/15/2018 12:22 PM, Jeremy O'Donoghue wrote:
>>>>>> On 12 Oct 2018, at 14:33, Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr =
<mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr>
>>>>>> <mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr>> wrote:
>>>>>>> The "Problem Statement" continues as follows:
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> (2) Today, there is no common, standard way for Relying Parties =
to
>>>>>>> know the provenance and characteristics of a device (e.g., an =
end-user
>>>>>>> device,
>>>>>>> platform or endpoint, servers, IoT devices, device subsystems =
and
>>>>>>> sub-modules) that may be requesting services.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Knowing the provenance of the device is not always necessary. =
What is
>>>>>>> important is to know that a specific set of functions is =
(securely)
>>>>>>> supported by the device.
>>>>>>> There already exists a common way to know the characteristics of =
a
>>>>>>> device by issuing to the device a public key certificate which =
will
>>>>>>> only be issued to the device
>>>>>>> if it fulfills an expected set of functionalities. In such a =
case a
>>>>>>> syntax for a trusted claim sets**is not needed.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> This is indeed a possible way to address the problem, but suffers =
from
>>>>>> challenges which come down to:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> - Who issues such certificates. An option is that there is some =
form of
>>>>>> security certification behind this issuance otherwise it is of =
very
>>>>>> limited value.
>>>>>> - In order to capture the wide variety of different devices (I =
prefer
>>>>>> "entity" here as it is more general than "device"), many =
different forms
>>>>>> of such certificates would be required. This ends up being much =
the same
>>>>>> thing as a set of claims.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Given the multiplicity of entities for which attestation might be
>>>>>> useful, it seems to me that having the entity =
creator/manufacturer
>>>>>> provide a set of claims which can be verified is more flexible =
than
>>>>>> requiring a certificate. It seems likely to me that where a =
formal
>>>>>> security certification is needed there will be a certificate =
issued by
>>>>>> the Certifying Body as one of the claims about an entity, but I =
can
>>>>>> think of many cases (supply chain management, to take just one =
example)
>>>>>> where provenance is by far the most useful information.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> I'm not in favour of changes to the charter in this direction.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> The simplest cases should also be part of the framework.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Note: I personally appreciate that privacy is an aspect that
>>>>>>> will/should be taken into consideration.
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> Denis
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> As with the earlier draft, there are many references to verify =
and
>>>>>>>> verifier in the lead up to the deliverable but no deliverables =
describing
>>>>>>>> verification rules. I'd like to see rules in one of these =
documents and
>>>>>>>> think it worth citing in the deliverables. Are bindings to =
certificate
>>>>>>>> management protocols out of scope?
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> On 10/11/18, 9:49 AM, "RATS on behalf of Henk Birkholz"
>>>>>>>> <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf =
of henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>  wrote:
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> sorry for the delay. Please find an updated charter proposal =
here:
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__github.com_ietf-2Dr=
ats_charter_blob_RC2_ietf-2Drats-2Dcharter.md&d=3DDwIFaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr=
6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DsebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VX=
hmfk&m=3Dp5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&s=3DrPzmwhcwy8eob4eMi=
wWzDg5DY-mcC5HYgQqhUGCZ2RI&e=3D
>>>>>>>>> The BoF proponents tried to merge all comments and proposals =
on
>>>>>>>>> keystores, existing solutions, provenance & device =
characteristics, etc
>>>>>>>>> that were raised on the list - and align them in homogeneous =
fashion.
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> This draft is intended to focus the discussion and improve the =
wording.
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> Henk
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> On 10/06/2018 08:23 AM, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Henk,
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> Bangkok IETF is getting close, will you be able to update the =
charter
>>>>>>>>>> for the attestation BoF to properly include EAT?  I sent you =
some text
>>>>>>>>>> that just needs to be pasted along with some comments. It =
doesn=E2=80=99t look
>>>>>>>>>> like there=E2=80=99s been any updates.
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> LL
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> RATS mailing list
>>>>>>>>> RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>> =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
n_listinfo_rats&d=3DDwIFaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI=
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-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&s=3DxThsQTXgadltVkHTYpOWknadi7puxZt8O6XOIUm_bzo&e=3D=

>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> EAT mailing list
>>>>>>>> EAT@ietf.org <mailto:EAT@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>> =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
n_listinfo_eat&d=3DDwIFaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&=
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>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> EAT mailing list
>>>>>>> EAT@ietf.org <mailto:EAT@ietf.org> <mailto:EAT@ietf.org>
>>>>>>> =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
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>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> EAT mailing list
>>>>>> EAT@ietf.org <mailto:EAT@ietf.org>
>>>>>> =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailma=
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>>>>>>=20
>>>>>             _______________________________________________
>>>>>        EAT mailing list
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>>>>> =
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>>>>>              _______________________________________________
>>>>>    EAT mailing list
>>>>> EAT@ietf.org <mailto:EAT@ietf.org>
>>>>> =
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>>>>>    IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any =
attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not =
the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not =
disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or =
store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
>>>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> EAT mailing list
>>>> EAT@ietf.org <mailto:EAT@ietf.org>
>>>> =
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>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> EAT mailing list
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>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat
>=20
> _______________________________________________
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">I consider <i class=3D"">device identity</i> an absolute =
critical part of our work. It is a critical part of most EAT use cases =
such as enrollment of IoT devices with IoT management systems. It is the =
first claim defined in EAT.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">What is the definition of an =
=E2=80=9Cidentity document=E2=80=9D? Maybe you are thinking of it =
specifically as what was defined for IEEE Dev ID. If I recall, the =
identification claims for the device are in the subject DN of an X.509 =
certificate.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Seems like any EAT with an EUID in it could server well as an =
identity document too. It provides signed, secured proof of the identity =
of the device. It can include manufacturer info in addition to the EUID. =
The EAT style identity could be as tiny as 150 bytes in CBOR syntax. All =
you need to store on the device is the EUID and the signing key. Maybe =
they are even deterministically KDF=E2=80=99d from the same seed so you =
maybe you only need to store 32 bytes on the device.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">EAT=E2=80=99s mention of =
X.509 in 1.4.2 is as one of many ways to establish key material so the =
remote / relying / verifying party can verify the signature. So yes, I =
think you have it correct below. (Technically speaking the private key =
associated with the X.509 cert is used to sign, not the X.509 cert or =
keys in the cert. The X.509 is only to help the verifier find and verify =
the verification key. You might even have a means to get it from some =
service based on a key ID and not even store it on the =
device).</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">It is =
an EAT design goal to keep <i class=3D"">all</i> the claims in the =
signed payload. That includes identity of the device, identity of the =
manufacturer and so on. That way you can use many different signing =
schemes (ECDAA, symmetric key, non-X.509 public key, X.509 pubic key, =
simple public key with just a key id=E2=80=A6) with the same =
claims.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Oct 17, 2018, at 5:49 PM, Henk Birkholz =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">Hi =
Laurence,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">maybe I understand now where the =
general confusion is originating from.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I =
dug through some parts of the EAT draft again and could it be that UIED =
are identifier and not an identities? They literally are claims (aka =
assertions) that can be signed as content of a CWT as illustrated in<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mandyam-eat-00#section-1.4.2" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mandyam-eat-00#section-1.4.2<=
/a><br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">1.4.2. talks about =
identity documents by mentioning "X.509 certificate chains or something =
similar but different". But as you highlighted anything with regard to =
that is explicitly intended _not_ to go into the EAT claim set as =
content, but is stored on the thing (or maybe on a thing that signs "on =
behalf of" the thing the EAT is about?) and consequently is only used to =
potentially sign the EAT claim set (via COSE). Is that correct?<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">As a result, an EAT would never be able to act =
as an identity document itself, but the key material that comes along =
with an x.509 certificate (as one example of many highlighted) could be =
used to sign the EAT.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">RATS are able to use =
the "X.509 certificate chains or something similar but different" and =
the corresponding key material comes along with a certificate (as one =
example amongst others) to establish Attestation Provenance.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Henk<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">On 10/17/2018 01:19 PM, =
Laurence Lundblade wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">Wasn=E2=80=99t saying there was ambiguity in the TCG case. =
Not being a TCGer, was just was trying to understand what the TCG =
definition is.<br class=3D"">Your mentioning 802.1AR DevID helps a lot =
as I have some knowledge of it.<br class=3D"">I see now that my =
speculation about SW / config version was wrong. That=E2=80=99s fine. I =
only wrote it to try to get to clarity.<br class=3D"">Thanks for help =
clarifying.<br class=3D"">In EAT, we defined a UEID for what TCGer=E2=80=99=
s mean by =E2=80=9Cidentity":<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;UEID's =
identify individual manufactured entities / devices such as a<br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;mobile phone, a water meter, a Bluetooth =
speaker or a networked<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;security camera. =
&nbsp;It may identify the entire device or a submodule or<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;subsystem. &nbsp;It does not identify types, models or =
classes of devices.<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;It is akin to a =
serial number, though it does not have to be<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;sequential.<br class=3D"">See here &lt;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mandyam-eat-00#section-3.1" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mandyam-eat-00#section-3.1</a=
>&gt; for more on UEID.<br class=3D"">In EAT there is a strong desire to =
separate the signing key material from UEID to have flexibility in the =
signing scheme. For example FIDO and Android both have =
privacy-preserving schemes were a signing key is shared by 100,000 =
devices. (Some use cases need privacy, some don=E2=80=99t, perhaps =
because of legal agreements with customers, and correlation between use =
cases and privacy schemes can=E2=80=99t be counted on for high-volume =
devices like mobile phones).<br class=3D"">I don=E2=80=99t know what the =
right answer(s) is(are) in the design yet...<br class=3D"">LL<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">On Oct 17, 2018, at 4:26 =
PM, Guy Fedorkow &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gfedorkow@juniper.net" =
class=3D"">gfedorkow@juniper.net</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:gfedorkow@juniper.net" =
class=3D"">mailto:gfedorkow@juniper.net</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Hi Laurence,<br class=3D"">&nbsp;I don't think =
there's ambiguity in the TCG case... &nbsp;current work in attestation =
focuses on using the 802.1AR DevID spec, which corresponds exactly to =
one of your cases below -- it's a vendor, model and serial number.<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;It's true that TCG technology can be used to validate =
software integrity, but that's hardly the same as identity.<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;Considerations of user privacy commonly accepted in TCG =
would preclude the inclusion of software state as part of identity, =
practicalities aside. &nbsp;In general, privacy considerations lead TCG =
to carefully avoid unauthorized disclosure of either software or =
hardware based assertions.<br class=3D"">&nbsp;Let me know if I'm =
missing the point...<br class=3D"">Thanks<br class=3D"">/guy fedorkow, =
juniper networks<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">-----Original =
Message-----<br class=3D"">From: Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</a>=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" =
class=3D"">mailto:lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt;&gt;<br class=3D"">Sent: =
Wednesday, October 17, 2018 12:31 AM<br class=3D"">To: Henk Birkholz =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;&gt;<br =
class=3D"">Cc: Smith, Ned &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com" =
class=3D"">ned.smith@intel.com</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com" =
class=3D"">mailto:ned.smith@intel.com</a>&gt;&gt;; Hannes Tschofenig =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com" =
class=3D"">Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com" =
class=3D"">mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com</a>&gt;&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" class=3D"">rats@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" class=3D"">mailto:rats@ietf.org</a>&gt;; =
Jeremy O'Donoghue &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com" =
class=3D"">jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com" =
class=3D"">mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com</a>&gt;&gt;; Denis &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr" class=3D"">denis.ietf@free.fr</a> =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr" =
class=3D"">mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr</a>&gt;&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:eat@ietf.org" class=3D"">eat@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:eat@ietf.org" class=3D"">mailto:eat@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D"">Subject: Re: [EAT] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Rats] Attestation BoF =
charter updates?<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I think the TCG has a =
certain developed notion of identity that is different from others. =
&nbsp;A way to get sharper about what a particular identity means is to =
describe the space and how the identifier selects in the space. =
&nbsp;Here=E2=80=99s a few examples:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">- The =
space is physical human beings with fingers. A fingerprint scanner =
select one of these humans. This is typical biometric auth.<br =
class=3D"">- The space is humans that know a password. A password =
authenticator selects the humans that know the password. Typical =
authentication.<br class=3D"">- The space is humans as legal entities / =
citizens with criminal records, passports and such. A national ID =
selects.<br class=3D"">- The space is physical manufactured devices from =
one maker. &nbsp;A serial number narrows it down to one physical =
device.<br class=3D"">- The space is physical devices from one maker. A =
model number or version, narrows down to a subset of these devices.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">My understanding of the TCG world is that =
identities goes beyond any of the above because they include things like =
the version of the SW and configuration of the device. The identity is =
largely a hash of an identifier of the physical device, various SW =
components and various configuration states. &nbsp;The point being that =
a change in any of these is a change in the security characteristics of =
the device and if it was trusted with a particular key or particular =
data in the past, that trust should be revoked until re established.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">- The space is physical devices from any =
maker<br class=3D"">&nbsp;+ Measurement of the SW (the SW versions)<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;+ Measurements of some =
configuration<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Changing any of these change =
the identity of the device.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I know I hardly =
need to ask, but TCG folks, did I describe this correctly?<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">So that said, many, perhaps =
most, use cases for EAT do not want this kind of device identity. It is =
not a prerequisite for trusting &nbsp;claims coming from the device. In =
some cases this level of identity seems extremely disruptive as small SW =
upgrades could result in re enrollment of biometrics. We already are =
annoyed when we have to answer security questions when start using a =
service from a new device.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I think this WG =
needs to address both this very tight TCG-style device identity and the =
more heuristic EAT-style claims-for-risk-engines. I could see =
multi-decade evolution where risk engine use cases want more and more of =
the tight TCG-style device identity as criminals become more adept at =
forging EAT-style claims. (Today risk engines work off of unsecured =
browser parameters).<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">The Introduction in =
the charter seems entirely focused on the TCG-based identity use case. I =
think text should be added for EAT-style attestation. I will write some =
after some comments on this message.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">LL<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">On Oct 16, 2018, at =
8:24 PM, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">To quote Carsten, there is "the usual =
terminology problem about identity".<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Identifying vs. Identity brings back memories about an =
extensive discussion in SACM that in the end resulted in using =
Profiles...<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Profiles are the "things" that =
you can aggregate identity claims in (in SACM these claims are "Target =
Endpoint Characteristics", which are pretty much the same thing as =
Device Characteristics) - and you use the Profiles to (re-)identify =
target endpoints.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">In the scope of remote =
attestation procedures, I think that "just not calling" claim sets that =
are composed (amongst others) of identifying claims "identity documents" =
might just end up in making up another name for something that is =
effectively composing identity documents anyways. If calling the same =
thing something else helps in some way, I am all for it. But I am really =
not sure.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">That said, Ned's elaboration on =
the relationship of identity and attestation claims and corresponding =
claim semantics / trust semantics is spot on, I think.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Henk<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">On 10/16/2018 03:51 PM, Smith, Ned wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Agree with Hannes that =
identity discussion can lead to confusion as identity is often highly =
dependent on some sort of context (domain of interpretation).<br =
class=3D"">In order to have productive conversation about attestation =
and identity, it may be important to understand that attestation =
semantics sets the context for identity.<br class=3D"">* Attestation =
attributes have trust semantics (and trust semantics are interpreted =
through the eyes of the verifier). Identity attributes may also have =
trust semantics (in addition to identity semantics) hence can be =
regarded as playing a role in both identity and attestation. Since RATS =
should be interested primarily in trust semantics, it makes sense to =
understand, discuss and consider identity in terms of its trust =
semantics. Hence identity attributes are only interesting to RATS if =
they are useful for evaluating trust semantics.<br class=3D"">* In a =
closed ecosystem, the trust characteristics and properties may be =
implied because there often exists out-of-band processes that ensure the =
characteristics are applied (for example, if an IT organization sets a =
policy that all asymmetric keys are to be hardened using a smartcard, =
they can apply a deployment process where the IT professional verifies =
the smartcard is used during enrollment.) But in a non-closed ecosystem, =
there isn't an assumption that out-of-band processes exist. Attestation =
attempts to make explicit what otherwise is implicit and therefore =
subject to misinterpretation if the verifier, relying party and attester =
are not part of the same closed ecosystem. Implicit attestation =
therefore can lead to semantic confusion if we're not careful. =
Therefore, the rigor of treating implicit attestation claims (assertions =
assumed to exist but not explicitly named) should nevertheless be =
defined explicitly. Then, if there is a need for implicit attestation, =
the specifications that describe them can describe them in terms of an =
explicit definition.<br class=3D"">* In the context of asserting trust =
characteristics, the verifier needs to know that a set of =
characteristics applies to the instance of the endpoint being evaluated =
(aka the attester). (Otherwise a MITM could supply characteristics that =
may be valid, but don=E2=80=99t apply to the specific instance). =
Consequently, it makes sense to consider that *attestation* keys are =
needed to authenticate the endpoint being evaluated. This doesn't imply =
an identity key couldn't double as an attestation key. But if it does, =
we care about its relevance to the attester endpoint.<br =
class=3D"">-Ned<br class=3D"">=EF=BB=BFOn 10/15/18, 6:49 PM, "Hannes =
Tschofenig" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com" =
class=3D"">Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com" =
class=3D"">mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Here are my 5 cents on the term =
'identity'.<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I have been =
working on identity management for many years (partially because of my =
OAuth co-chair role) and I have noticed that the use of the term =
"identity" tends to confuse more than it helps (even more so when the =
term is applied to devices and software rather than humans).<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I believe we =
could get away with describing what we want without ever using the =
term.<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;In =
this context I would argue that we are about identifying different =
components, such as hardware and software.<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Ciao<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Hannes<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;-----Original =
Message-----<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;From: EAT &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org" class=3D"">eat-bounces@ietf.org</a> =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt; On Behalf Of Smith, =
Ned<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Sent: Monday, October 15, 2018 9:00 =
AM<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;To: Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" class=3D"">rats@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" class=3D"">mailto:rats@ietf.org</a>&gt;; =
Jeremy O'Donoghue &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com" =
class=3D"">jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com" =
class=3D"">mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com</a>&gt;&gt;; Denis &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr" class=3D"">denis.ietf@free.fr</a> =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr" =
class=3D"">mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr</a>&gt;&gt;<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:eat@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">eat@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eat@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">mailto:eat@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Subject: Re: [EAT] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Rats] =
Attestation BoF charter updates?<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I agree with =
Henk's observation that there is opportunity to find common ground on =
identity as identity can be a collection of attributes, that if signed, =
becomes a set of verifiable claims (about identity attributes). =
Attestation has a similar structure in that it consists of a set of =
attributes, that if signed becomes a set of verifiable claims. The main =
difference between identity and attestation attributes is whether the =
attribute semantically relate to trust (vs. identity). For example, =
claims of security certification compliance resonates as attestation.<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;It may be =
possible to combine a set of attestation attributes in such a way that =
the combination uniquely identifies an entity. But that doesn't make it =
an identity system per se and shouldn't cause a conflict in charter =
goals with respect to other identity focused efforts in IETF.<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Also, =
inclusion of attributes that don't have semantics that reasonably relate =
to trust should not be of interest to a working group focused on =
attestation.<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;-Ned<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;On 10/15/18, =
3:53 PM, "EAT on behalf of Henk Birkholz" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org" class=3D"">eat-bounces@ietf.org</a> =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of <a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;Hi Jeremy &amp; Denis,<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;all these points of view have merit, I think.<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;Please have a look at these quotes:<br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"">knowing the provenance of the device<br =
class=3D"">having the entity creator/manufacturer provide a set of =
claims which can be verified<br class=3D"">to know the characteristics =
of a device by issuing to the device a public key certificate which will =
only be issued to the device if it fulfills an expected set of =
functionalities.<br =
class=3D""></blockquote>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;To me, these descriptions seem to have different =
intents, scope or<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;audience and =
require most certainly different work-flows, but<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;semantically and in =
consequence representation-wise they also seem quite<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;related.<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;If you think of an identity document as a set of claims =
(potentially<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;including a public =
key), that is signed and that can match one or more<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;things, maybe all =
three types highlighted above are actually covered by<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;the same identity =
document concept?<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;With respect to identity documents, I think it is safe so say =
that we<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;can find =
common ground here rather easily. That said, the way how these<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;identity documents =
come into existence, when and how they are deployed<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;on the thing or =
associated with multiple things is another question. We<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;most certainly do =
not want to end up with a "signing fool" that does not<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;add value to the =
level of confidence (I am quoting Ned Smith here).<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;This has to be fleshed out explicitly for each scenario and the =
parts<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;that are =
reused in every scenario should get special attention in the<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;upcoming RATS =
architecture draft.<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;Identifying claims aggregated in an identity document most =
certainly can<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;include device =
characteristics, public key(s), or claims about the<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;intended functions =
and capabilities of the thing. Claims can even<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;originate from =
Claimants that are not the thing itself, but external<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;entities providing =
an assertion (e.g. these things are CC-certified).<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;All different composites of identifying claims have a specific =
shared<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;intend in =
this context though, I think: expressing Attestation<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Provenance (again - =
one for one or more things of the same kind). And<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;all of them =
originate from Claimants and therefore use a root of trust<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;of measurement, I =
think.<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;That said, establishing trustworthy knowledge about =
attestation<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;provenance is only =
the first step and provides the foundation for more<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;complex attestation =
procedures. In any case, this seem to be required by<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;every scenario that =
was highlighted so far and therefore will most<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;certainly be =
covered in a deliverable.<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;IHTH,<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;Henk<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;On 10/15/2018 12:22 PM, Jeremy =
O'Donoghue wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">On =
12 Oct 2018, at 14:33, Denis &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr" =
class=3D"">denis.ietf@free.fr</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr" =
class=3D"">mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr" =
class=3D"">mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">The "Problem Statement" =
continues as follows:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">(2) Today, there is =
no common, standard way for Relying Parties to<br class=3D"">know the =
provenance and characteristics of a device (e.g., an end-user<br =
class=3D"">device,<br class=3D"">platform or endpoint, servers, IoT =
devices, device subsystems and<br class=3D"">sub-modules) that may be =
requesting services.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Knowing the provenance =
of the device is not always necessary. What is<br class=3D"">important =
is to know that a specific set of functions is (securely)<br =
class=3D"">supported by the device.<br class=3D"">There already exists a =
common way to know the characteristics of a<br class=3D"">device by =
issuing to the device a public key certificate which will<br =
class=3D"">only be issued to the device<br class=3D"">if it fulfills an =
expected set of functionalities. In such a case a<br class=3D"">syntax =
for a trusted claim sets**is not needed.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></blockquote>This is indeed a possible way to address the =
problem, but suffers from<br class=3D"">challenges which come down =
to:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">- Who issues such certificates. An =
option is that there is some form of<br class=3D"">security =
certification behind this issuance otherwise it is of very<br =
class=3D"">limited value.<br class=3D"">- In order to capture the wide =
variety of different devices (I prefer<br class=3D"">"entity" here as it =
is more general than "device"), many different forms<br class=3D"">of =
such certificates would be required. This ends up being much the same<br =
class=3D"">thing as a set of claims.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Given =
the multiplicity of entities for which attestation might be<br =
class=3D"">useful, it seems to me that having the entity =
creator/manufacturer<br class=3D"">provide a set of claims which can be =
verified is more flexible than<br class=3D"">requiring a certificate. It =
seems likely to me that where a formal<br class=3D"">security =
certification is needed there will be a certificate issued by<br =
class=3D"">the Certifying Body as one of the claims about an entity, but =
I can<br class=3D"">think of many cases (supply chain management, to =
take just one example)<br class=3D"">where provenance is by far the most =
useful information.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I'm not in favour of =
changes to the charter in this direction.<br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D"">The simplest cases should also =
be part of the framework.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Note: I =
personally appreciate that privacy is an aspect that<br =
class=3D"">will/should be taken into consideration.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Denis<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">As with the earlier draft, there are many references to =
verify and<br class=3D"">verifier in the lead up to the deliverable but =
no deliverables describing<br class=3D"">verification rules. I'd like to =
see rules in one of these documents and<br class=3D"">think it worth =
citing in the deliverables. Are bindings to certificate<br =
class=3D"">management protocols out of scope?<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">On 10/11/18, 9:49 AM, "RATS on behalf of Henk Birkholz"<br =
class=3D"">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of <a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;&gt; =
&nbsp;wrote:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">Hi all,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">sorry for the delay. =
Please find an updated charter proposal here:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__github.com_=
ietf-2Drats_charter_blob_RC2_ietf-2Drats-2Dcharter.md&amp;d=3DDwIFaQ&amp;c=
=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DsebUyXCidr_CEuZObmO=
ub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&amp;m=3Dp5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyW=
GM&amp;s=3DrPzmwhcwy8eob4eMiwWzDg5DY-mcC5HYgQqhUGCZ2RI&amp;e=3D" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__github.c=
om_ietf-2Drats_charter_blob_RC2_ietf-2Drats-2Dcharter.md&amp;d=3DDwIFaQ&am=
p;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DsebUyXCidr_CEuZO=
bmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&amp;m=3Dp5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AU=
wyWGM&amp;s=3DrPzmwhcwy8eob4eMiwWzDg5DY-mcC5HYgQqhUGCZ2RI&amp;e=3D</a><br =
class=3D""></blockquote>The BoF proponents tried to merge all comments =
and proposals on<br class=3D"">keystores, existing solutions, provenance =
&amp; device characteristics, etc<br class=3D"">that were raised on the =
list - and align them in homogeneous fashion.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">This draft is intended to focus the discussion and improve =
the wording.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Henk<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">On =
10/06/2018 08:23 AM, Laurence Lundblade wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Hi Henk,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Bangkok =
IETF is getting close, will you be able to update the charter<br =
class=3D"">for the attestation BoF to properly include EAT? &nbsp;I sent =
you some text<br class=3D"">that just needs to be pasted along with some =
comments. It doesn=E2=80=99t look<br class=3D"">like there=E2=80=99s =
been any updates.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">LL<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></blockquote>_______________________________________________<br=
 class=3D"">RATS mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" class=3D"">RATS@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" class=3D"">mailto:RATS@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mailman_listinfo_rats&amp;d=3DDwIFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK=
-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DsebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&amp;m=
=3Dp5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&amp;s=3DxThsQTXgadltVkHTYpO=
Wknadi7puxZt8O6XOIUm_bzo&amp;e=3D" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf=
.org_mailman_listinfo_rats&amp;d=3DDwIFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBX=
eMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DsebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&am=
p;m=3Dp5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&amp;s=3DxThsQTXgadltVkHT=
YpOWknadi7puxZt8O6XOIUm_bzo&amp;e=3D</a><br =
class=3D""></blockquote>_______________________________________________<br=
 class=3D"">EAT mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:EAT@ietf.org"=
 class=3D"">EAT@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:EAT@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">mailto:EAT@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mailman_listinfo_eat&amp;d=3DDwIFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-=
ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DsebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&amp;m=3D=
p5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&amp;s=3DN7kKkDdCvl_MNmB3Guyg9H=
C-kQnMrX1cP5w44SbDsAw&amp;e=3D" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf=
.org_mailman_listinfo_eat&amp;d=3DDwIFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXe=
MK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DsebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&amp=
;m=3Dp5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&amp;s=3DN7kKkDdCvl_MNmB3G=
uyg9HC-kQnMrX1cP5w44SbDsAw&amp;e=3D</a><br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">EAT mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:EAT@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">EAT@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:EAT@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">mailto:EAT@ietf.org</a>&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:EAT@ietf.org"=
 class=3D"">mailto:EAT@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mailman_listinfo_eat&amp;d=3DDwIFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-=
ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DsebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&amp;m=3D=
p5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&amp;s=3DN7kKkDdCvl_MNmB3Guyg9H=
C-kQnMrX1cP5w44SbDsAw&amp;e=3D" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf=
.org_mailman_listinfo_eat&amp;d=3DDwIFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXe=
MK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DsebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&amp=
;m=3Dp5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&amp;s=3DN7kKkDdCvl_MNmB3G=
uyg9HC-kQnMrX1cP5w44SbDsAw&amp;e=3D</a><br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">EAT mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:EAT@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">EAT@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:EAT@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">mailto:EAT@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mailman_listinfo_eat&amp;d=3DDwIFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-=
ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DsebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&amp;m=3D=
p5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&amp;s=3DN7kKkDdCvl_MNmB3Guyg9H=
C-kQnMrX1cP5w44SbDsAw&amp;e=3D" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf=
.org_mailman_listinfo_eat&amp;d=3DDwIFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXe=
MK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DsebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&amp=
;m=3Dp5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&amp;s=3DN7kKkDdCvl_MNmB3G=
uyg9HC-kQnMrX1cP5w44SbDsAw&amp;e=3D</a><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></blockquote>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;EAT mailing list<br =
class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:EAT@ietf.org" class=3D"">EAT@ietf.org</a> =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:EAT@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">mailto:EAT@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mailman_listinfo_eat&amp;d=3DDwIFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-=
ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DsebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&amp;m=3D=
p5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&amp;s=3DN7kKkDdCvl_MNmB3Guyg9H=
C-kQnMrX1cP5w44SbDsAw&amp;e=3D" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf=
.org_mailman_listinfo_eat&amp;d=3DDwIFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXe=
MK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DsebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&amp=
;m=3Dp5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&amp;s=3DN7kKkDdCvl_MNmB3G=
uyg9HC-kQnMrX1cP5w44SbDsAw&amp;e=3D</a><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;EAT mailing list<br class=3D"">EAT@ietf.org =
&lt;mailto:EAT@ietf.org&gt;<br =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf=
.org_mailman_listinfo_eat&amp;d=3DDwIFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXe=
MK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DsebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&amp=
;m=3Dp5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&amp;s=3DN7kKkDdCvl_MNmB3G=
uyg9HC-kQnMrX1cP5w44SbDsAw&amp;e=3D<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this =
email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. =
If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender =
immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it =
for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank =
you.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></blockquote>_______________________________________________<br=
 class=3D"">EAT mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:EAT@ietf.org"=
 class=3D"">EAT@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:EAT@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">mailto:EAT@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mailman_listinfo_eat&amp;d=3DDwIFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-=
ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DsebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&amp;m=3D=
p5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&amp;s=3DN7kKkDdCvl_MNmB3Guyg9H=
C-kQnMrX1cP5w44SbDsAw&amp;e=3D" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf=
.org_mailman_listinfo_eat&amp;d=3DDwIFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXe=
MK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DsebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&amp=
;m=3Dp5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&amp;s=3DN7kKkDdCvl_MNmB3G=
uyg9HC-kQnMrX1cP5w44SbDsAw&amp;e=3D</a><br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">EAT mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:EAT@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">EAT@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:EAT@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">mailto:EAT@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat</a><br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">EAT mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:EAT@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">EAT@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=

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To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
CC: Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net>, Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr>, Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, "Jeremy O'Donoghue" <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>
References: <5D773C02-5083-4B10-A705-782E28FD8ADB@island-resort.com> <f84515dd-2e1a-7e66-7c23-b16f8f425d2a@sit.fraunhofer.de> <D7E5069D.C2E65%carl@redhoundsoftware.com> <c72a3b6c-88f2-d452-96be-947a4be1d9c8@free.fr> <73EF502E-B68C-4106-8311-4897B4F2DF8C@qti.qualcomm.com> <b6c9ff4a-cc35-8175-3294-4e6ec366409f@sit.fraunhofer.de> <615BB1D3-29E3-468B-B988-84852F47742C@intel.com> <VI1PR0801MB211230882A5B0D594D66DCFDFAFD0@VI1PR0801MB2112.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com> <71A01CDA-380F-4A57-B601-02F9A2699471@intel.com> <6f28e6a4-1930-84b2-1399-8aed75e3a6b4@sit.fraunhofer.de> <FB52EAA1-21F9-4792-B6A2-B58BBFBB53D6@island-resort.com> <BN7PR05MB4097DAA623B0F77573982910BAFF0@BN7PR05MB4097.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <04976C31-F18C-4F99-847D-110641DCDE80@island-resort.com> <9c73f9b7-9129-c273-254e-465f92ab3650@sit.fraunhofer.de> <09818298-9FE1-430A-8045-A9A7E76ED64C@island-resort.com>
From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Device Identity (was Re: [EAT] [EXTERNAL] Re: Attestation BoF charter updates?)
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Hello Laurence,

unfortunately, I am traveling at the moment, but let me try to address 
an eclectically chosen topic.

In an attempt to answer your question "What is the definition of an 
“identity document” I will just reference

> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-birkholz-core-coid-00#section-1

for now (instead of writing a wall of text again. Sorry, if I do that 
sometimes, that does not always help...)

Based on the reference text, the important principle here is that an 
identity document is signed using secret keys issued by a (sub) 
certificate authority that one or more entities *can* put trust into.

In comparison, if a CWT is signed with key material deployed on the 
device in question, what you provide is proof-of-possession of that 
signing (most likely intended to be secret) key.

Again, you *can* put trust into that proof-of-possession, but the trust 
relationships here can have vastly different semantics. In both cases 
though, putting trust into, for example, CoID (via TVP) or EAT (via PoP) 
is a decision, I think. If you choose to put trust into the signature of 
these CWT, both are Trusted Claim Sets - to you.

This trust has unfortunately nothing to do with the actual 
trustworthiness of the thing in question. As Ned illustrated already, 
"in a closed ecosystem, the trust characteristics and properties may be 
implied". In consequence, if you choose to trust that possession of a 
key provides an appropriate level of confidence in trustworthiness - 
that is a decision you make.

This does not provide actual evidence that a thing is really 
trustworthy. And providing this evidence via interoperable network 
protocols is the gap that RATS intent to address - not only in closed 
ecosystems, but also the Internet in general.

IHTH,

Henk


On 10/20/2018 08:19 AM, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
> I consider /device identity/ an absolute critical part of our work. It 
> is a critical part of most EAT use cases such as enrollment of IoT 
> devices with IoT management systems. It is the first claim defined in EAT.
> 
> What is the definition of an “identity document”? Maybe you are thinking 
> of it specifically as what was defined for IEEE Dev ID. If I recall, the 
> identification claims for the device are in the subject DN of an X.509 
> certificate.
> 
> Seems like any EAT with an EUID in it could server well as an identity 
> document too. It provides signed, secured proof of the identity of the 
> device. It can include manufacturer info in addition to the EUID. The 
> EAT style identity could be as tiny as 150 bytes in CBOR syntax. All you 
> need to store on the device is the EUID and the signing key. Maybe they 
> are even deterministically KDF’d from the same seed so you maybe you 
> only need to store 32 bytes on the device.
> 
> EAT’s mention of X.509 in 1.4.2 is as one of many ways to establish key 
> material so the remote / relying / verifying party can verify the 
> signature. So yes, I think you have it correct below. (Technically 
> speaking the private key associated with the X.509 cert is used to sign, 
> not the X.509 cert or keys in the cert. The X.509 is only to help the 
> verifier find and verify the verification key. You might even have a 
> means to get it from some service based on a key ID and not even store 
> it on the device).
> 
> It is an EAT design goal to keep /all/ the claims in the signed payload. 
> That includes identity of the device, identity of the manufacturer and 
> so on. That way you can use many different signing schemes (ECDAA, 
> symmetric key, non-X.509 public key, X.509 pubic key, simple public key 
> with just a key id…) with the same claims.
> 
> LL
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Oct 17, 2018, at 5:49 PM, Henk Birkholz 
>> <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de 
>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Laurence,
>>
>> maybe I understand now where the general confusion is originating from.
>>
>> I dug through some parts of the EAT draft again and could it be that 
>> UIED are identifier and not an identities? They literally are claims 
>> (aka assertions) that can be signed as content of a CWT as illustrated in
>>
>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mandyam-eat-00#section-1.4.2
>>
>> 1.4.2. talks about identity documents by mentioning "X.509 certificate 
>> chains or something similar but different". But as you highlighted 
>> anything with regard to that is explicitly intended _not_ to go into 
>> the EAT claim set as content, but is stored on the thing (or maybe on 
>> a thing that signs "on behalf of" the thing the EAT is about?) and 
>> consequently is only used to potentially sign the EAT claim set (via 
>> COSE). Is that correct?
>>
>> As a result, an EAT would never be able to act as an identity document 
>> itself, but the key material that comes along with an x.509 
>> certificate (as one example of many highlighted) could be used to sign 
>> the EAT.
>>
>> RATS are able to use the "X.509 certificate chains or something 
>> similar but different" and the corresponding key material comes along 
>> with a certificate (as one example amongst others) to establish 
>> Attestation Provenance.
>>
>> Viele Grüße,
>>
>> Henk
>>
>> On 10/17/2018 01:19 PM, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>>> Wasn’t saying there was ambiguity in the TCG case. Not being a TCGer, 
>>> was just was trying to understand what the TCG definition is.
>>> Your mentioning 802.1AR DevID helps a lot as I have some knowledge of it.
>>> I see now that my speculation about SW / config version was wrong. 
>>> That’s fine. I only wrote it to try to get to clarity.
>>> Thanks for help clarifying.
>>> In EAT, we defined a UEID for what TCGer’s mean by “identity":
>>>    UEID's identify individual manufactured entities / devices such as a
>>>    mobile phone, a water meter, a Bluetooth speaker or a networked
>>>    security camera.  It may identify the entire device or a submodule or
>>>    subsystem.  It does not identify types, models or classes of devices.
>>>    It is akin to a serial number, though it does not have to be
>>>    sequential.
>>> See here 
>>> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mandyam-eat-00#section-3.1> for 
>>> more on UEID.
>>> In EAT there is a strong desire to separate the signing key material 
>>> from UEID to have flexibility in the signing scheme. For example FIDO 
>>> and Android both have privacy-preserving schemes were a signing key 
>>> is shared by 100,000 devices. (Some use cases need privacy, some 
>>> don’t, perhaps because of legal agreements with customers, and 
>>> correlation between use cases and privacy schemes can’t be counted on 
>>> for high-volume devices like mobile phones).
>>> I don’t know what the right answer(s) is(are) in the design yet...
>>> LL
>>>> On Oct 17, 2018, at 4:26 PM, Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net 
>>>> <mailto:gfedorkow@juniper.net> <mailto:gfedorkow@juniper.net>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Laurence,
>>>>  I don't think there's ambiguity in the TCG case...  current work in 
>>>> attestation focuses on using the 802.1AR DevID spec, which 
>>>> corresponds exactly to one of your cases below -- it's a vendor, 
>>>> model and serial number.
>>>>  It's true that TCG technology can be used to validate software 
>>>> integrity, but that's hardly the same as identity.
>>>>  Considerations of user privacy commonly accepted in TCG would 
>>>> preclude the inclusion of software state as part of identity, 
>>>> practicalities aside.  In general, privacy considerations lead TCG 
>>>> to carefully avoid unauthorized disclosure of either software or 
>>>> hardware based assertions.
>>>>  Let me know if I'm missing the point...
>>>> Thanks
>>>> /guy fedorkow, juniper networks
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com 
>>>> <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com> <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 12:31 AM
>>>> To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de 
>>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> 
>>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>
>>>> Cc: Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com <mailto:ned.smith@intel.com> 
>>>> <mailto:ned.smith@intel.com>>; Hannes Tschofenig 
>>>> <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com <mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> 
>>>> <mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>>; rats@ietf.org 
>>>> <mailto:rats@ietf.org> <mailto:rats@ietf.org>; Jeremy O'Donoghue 
>>>> <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com <mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com> 
>>>> <mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>>; Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr 
>>>> <mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr> <mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr>>; 
>>>> eat@ietf.org <mailto:eat@ietf.org> <mailto:eat@ietf.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [EAT] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Rats] Attestation BoF charter 
>>>> updates?
>>>>
>>>> I think the TCG has a certain developed notion of identity that is 
>>>> different from others.  A way to get sharper about what a particular 
>>>> identity means is to describe the space and how the identifier 
>>>> selects in the space.  Here’s a few examples:
>>>>
>>>> - The space is physical human beings with fingers. A fingerprint 
>>>> scanner select one of these humans. This is typical biometric auth.
>>>> - The space is humans that know a password. A password authenticator 
>>>> selects the humans that know the password. Typical authentication.
>>>> - The space is humans as legal entities / citizens with criminal 
>>>> records, passports and such. A national ID selects.
>>>> - The space is physical manufactured devices from one maker.  A 
>>>> serial number narrows it down to one physical device.
>>>> - The space is physical devices from one maker. A model number or 
>>>> version, narrows down to a subset of these devices.
>>>>
>>>> My understanding of the TCG world is that identities goes beyond any 
>>>> of the above because they include things like the version of the SW 
>>>> and configuration of the device. The identity is largely a hash of 
>>>> an identifier of the physical device, various SW components and 
>>>> various configuration states.  The point being that a change in any 
>>>> of these is a change in the security characteristics of the device 
>>>> and if it was trusted with a particular key or particular data in 
>>>> the past, that trust should be revoked until re established.
>>>>
>>>> - The space is physical devices from any maker
>>>>  + Measurement of the SW (the SW versions)
>>>>     + Measurements of some configuration
>>>>
>>>> Changing any of these change the identity of the device.
>>>>
>>>> I know I hardly need to ask, but TCG folks, did I describe this 
>>>> correctly?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So that said, many, perhaps most, use cases for EAT do not want this 
>>>> kind of device identity. It is not a prerequisite for trusting 
>>>>  claims coming from the device. In some cases this level of identity 
>>>> seems extremely disruptive as small SW upgrades could result in re 
>>>> enrollment of biometrics. We already are annoyed when we have to 
>>>> answer security questions when start using a service from a new device.
>>>>
>>>> I think this WG needs to address both this very tight TCG-style 
>>>> device identity and the more heuristic EAT-style 
>>>> claims-for-risk-engines. I could see multi-decade evolution where 
>>>> risk engine use cases want more and more of the tight TCG-style 
>>>> device identity as criminals become more adept at forging EAT-style 
>>>> claims. (Today risk engines work off of unsecured browser parameters).
>>>>
>>>> The Introduction in the charter seems entirely focused on the 
>>>> TCG-based identity use case. I think text should be added for 
>>>> EAT-style attestation. I will write some after some comments on this 
>>>> message.
>>>>
>>>> LL
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Oct 16, 2018, at 8:24 PM, Henk Birkholz 
>>>>> <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de 
>>>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> 
>>>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> To quote Carsten, there is "the usual terminology problem about 
>>>>> identity".
>>>>>
>>>>> Identifying vs. Identity brings back memories about an extensive 
>>>>> discussion in SACM that in the end resulted in using Profiles...
>>>>>
>>>>> Profiles are the "things" that you can aggregate identity claims in 
>>>>> (in SACM these claims are "Target Endpoint Characteristics", which 
>>>>> are pretty much the same thing as Device Characteristics) - and you 
>>>>> use the Profiles to (re-)identify target endpoints.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the scope of remote attestation procedures, I think that "just 
>>>>> not calling" claim sets that are composed (amongst others) of 
>>>>> identifying claims "identity documents" might just end up in making 
>>>>> up another name for something that is effectively composing 
>>>>> identity documents anyways. If calling the same thing something 
>>>>> else helps in some way, I am all for it. But I am really not sure.
>>>>>
>>>>> That said, Ned's elaboration on the relationship of identity and 
>>>>> attestation claims and corresponding claim semantics / trust 
>>>>> semantics is spot on, I think.
>>>>>
>>>>> Viele Grüße,
>>>>>
>>>>> Henk
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10/16/2018 03:51 PM, Smith, Ned wrote:
>>>>>> Agree with Hannes that identity discussion can lead to confusion 
>>>>>> as identity is often highly dependent on some sort of context 
>>>>>> (domain of interpretation).
>>>>>> In order to have productive conversation about attestation and 
>>>>>> identity, it may be important to understand that attestation 
>>>>>> semantics sets the context for identity.
>>>>>> * Attestation attributes have trust semantics (and trust semantics 
>>>>>> are interpreted through the eyes of the verifier). Identity 
>>>>>> attributes may also have trust semantics (in addition to identity 
>>>>>> semantics) hence can be regarded as playing a role in both 
>>>>>> identity and attestation. Since RATS should be interested 
>>>>>> primarily in trust semantics, it makes sense to understand, 
>>>>>> discuss and consider identity in terms of its trust semantics. 
>>>>>> Hence identity attributes are only interesting to RATS if they are 
>>>>>> useful for evaluating trust semantics.
>>>>>> * In a closed ecosystem, the trust characteristics and properties 
>>>>>> may be implied because there often exists out-of-band processes 
>>>>>> that ensure the characteristics are applied (for example, if an IT 
>>>>>> organization sets a policy that all asymmetric keys are to be 
>>>>>> hardened using a smartcard, they can apply a deployment process 
>>>>>> where the IT professional verifies the smartcard is used during 
>>>>>> enrollment.) But in a non-closed ecosystem, there isn't an 
>>>>>> assumption that out-of-band processes exist. Attestation attempts 
>>>>>> to make explicit what otherwise is implicit and therefore subject 
>>>>>> to misinterpretation if the verifier, relying party and attester 
>>>>>> are not part of the same closed ecosystem. Implicit attestation 
>>>>>> therefore can lead to semantic confusion if we're not careful. 
>>>>>> Therefore, the rigor of treating implicit attestation claims 
>>>>>> (assertions assumed to exist but not explicitly named) should 
>>>>>> nevertheless be defined explicitly. Then, if there is a need for 
>>>>>> implicit attestation, the specifications that describe them can 
>>>>>> describe them in terms of an explicit definition.
>>>>>> * In the context of asserting trust characteristics, the verifier 
>>>>>> needs to know that a set of characteristics applies to the 
>>>>>> instance of the endpoint being evaluated (aka the attester). 
>>>>>> (Otherwise a MITM could supply characteristics that may be valid, 
>>>>>> but don’t apply to the specific instance). Consequently, it makes 
>>>>>> sense to consider that *attestation* keys are needed to 
>>>>>> authenticate the endpoint being evaluated. This doesn't imply an 
>>>>>> identity key couldn't double as an attestation key. But if it 
>>>>>> does, we care about its relevance to the attester endpoint.
>>>>>> -Ned
>>>>>> ﻿On 10/15/18, 6:49 PM, "Hannes Tschofenig" 
>>>>>> <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com <mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> 
>>>>>> <mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>    Here are my 5 cents on the term 'identity'.
>>>>>>         I have been working on identity management for many years 
>>>>>> (partially because of my OAuth co-chair role) and I have noticed 
>>>>>> that the use of the term "identity" tends to confuse more than it 
>>>>>> helps (even more so when the term is applied to devices and 
>>>>>> software rather than humans).
>>>>>>         I believe we could get away with describing what we want 
>>>>>> without ever using the term.
>>>>>>         In this context I would argue that we are about 
>>>>>> identifying different components, such as hardware and software.
>>>>>>         Ciao
>>>>>>    Hannes
>>>>>>         -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>    From: EAT <eat-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org> 
>>>>>> <mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf Of Smith, Ned
>>>>>>    Sent: Monday, October 15, 2018 9:00 AM
>>>>>>    To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de 
>>>>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> 
>>>>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>; rats@ietf.org 
>>>>>> <mailto:rats@ietf.org> <mailto:rats@ietf.org>; Jeremy O'Donoghue 
>>>>>> <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com <mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com> 
>>>>>> <mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>>; Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr 
>>>>>> <mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr> <mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr>>
>>>>>>    Cc: eat@ietf.org <mailto:eat@ietf.org> <mailto:eat@ietf.org>
>>>>>>    Subject: Re: [EAT] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Rats] Attestation BoF 
>>>>>> charter updates?
>>>>>>         I agree with Henk's observation that there is opportunity 
>>>>>> to find common ground on identity as identity can be a collection 
>>>>>> of attributes, that if signed, becomes a set of verifiable claims 
>>>>>> (about identity attributes). Attestation has a similar structure 
>>>>>> in that it consists of a set of attributes, that if signed becomes 
>>>>>> a set of verifiable claims. The main difference between identity 
>>>>>> and attestation attributes is whether the attribute semantically 
>>>>>> relate to trust (vs. identity). For example, claims of security 
>>>>>> certification compliance resonates as attestation.
>>>>>>         It may be possible to combine a set of attestation 
>>>>>> attributes in such a way that the combination uniquely identifies 
>>>>>> an entity. But that doesn't make it an identity system per se and 
>>>>>> shouldn't cause a conflict in charter goals with respect to other 
>>>>>> identity focused efforts in IETF.
>>>>>>         Also, inclusion of attributes that don't have semantics 
>>>>>> that reasonably relate to trust should not be of interest to a 
>>>>>> working group focused on attestation.
>>>>>>         -Ned
>>>>>>         On 10/15/18, 3:53 PM, "EAT on behalf of Henk Birkholz" 
>>>>>> <eat-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org> 
>>>>>> <mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of 
>>>>>> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de 
>>>>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> 
>>>>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
>>>>>>             Hi Jeremy & Denis,
>>>>>>             all these points of view have merit, I think.
>>>>>>             Please have a look at these quotes:
>>>>>>> knowing the provenance of the device
>>>>>>> having the entity creator/manufacturer provide a set of claims 
>>>>>>> which can be verified
>>>>>>> to know the characteristics of a device by issuing to the device 
>>>>>>> a public key certificate which will only be issued to the device 
>>>>>>> if it fulfills an expected set of functionalities.
>>>>>>             To me, these descriptions seem to have different 
>>>>>> intents, scope or
>>>>>>        audience and require most certainly different work-flows, but
>>>>>>        semantically and in consequence representation-wise they 
>>>>>> also seem quite
>>>>>>        related.
>>>>>>             If you think of an identity document as a set of 
>>>>>> claims (potentially
>>>>>>        including a public key), that is signed and that can match 
>>>>>> one or more
>>>>>>        things, maybe all three types highlighted above are 
>>>>>> actually covered by
>>>>>>        the same identity document concept?
>>>>>>             With respect to identity documents, I think it is safe 
>>>>>> so say that we
>>>>>>        can find common ground here rather easily. That said, the 
>>>>>> way how these
>>>>>>        identity documents come into existence, when and how they 
>>>>>> are deployed
>>>>>>        on the thing or associated with multiple things is another 
>>>>>> question. We
>>>>>>        most certainly do not want to end up with a "signing fool" 
>>>>>> that does not
>>>>>>        add value to the level of confidence (I am quoting Ned 
>>>>>> Smith here).
>>>>>>             This has to be fleshed out explicitly for each 
>>>>>> scenario and the parts
>>>>>>        that are reused in every scenario should get special 
>>>>>> attention in the
>>>>>>        upcoming RATS architecture draft.
>>>>>>             Identifying claims aggregated in an identity document 
>>>>>> most certainly can
>>>>>>        include device characteristics, public key(s), or claims 
>>>>>> about the
>>>>>>        intended functions and capabilities of the thing. Claims 
>>>>>> can even
>>>>>>        originate from Claimants that are not the thing itself, but 
>>>>>> external
>>>>>>        entities providing an assertion (e.g. these things are 
>>>>>> CC-certified).
>>>>>>             All different composites of identifying claims have a 
>>>>>> specific shared
>>>>>>        intend in this context though, I think: expressing Attestation
>>>>>>        Provenance (again - one for one or more things of the same 
>>>>>> kind). And
>>>>>>        all of them originate from Claimants and therefore use a 
>>>>>> root of trust
>>>>>>        of measurement, I think.
>>>>>>             That said, establishing trustworthy knowledge about 
>>>>>> attestation
>>>>>>        provenance is only the first step and provides the 
>>>>>> foundation for more
>>>>>>        complex attestation procedures. In any case, this seem to 
>>>>>> be required by
>>>>>>        every scenario that was highlighted so far and therefore 
>>>>>> will most
>>>>>>        certainly be covered in a deliverable.
>>>>>>             IHTH,
>>>>>>             Henk
>>>>>>                  On 10/15/2018 12:22 PM, Jeremy O'Donoghue wrote:
>>>>>>> On 12 Oct 2018, at 14:33, Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr 
>>>>>>> <mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr> <mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr>
>>>>>>> <mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> The "Problem Statement" continues as follows:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> (2) Today, there is no common, standard way for Relying Parties to
>>>>>>>> know the provenance and characteristics of a device (e.g., an 
>>>>>>>> end-user
>>>>>>>> device,
>>>>>>>> platform or endpoint, servers, IoT devices, device subsystems and
>>>>>>>> sub-modules) that may be requesting services.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Knowing the provenance of the device is not always necessary. 
>>>>>>>> What is
>>>>>>>> important is to know that a specific set of functions is (securely)
>>>>>>>> supported by the device.
>>>>>>>> There already exists a common way to know the characteristics of a
>>>>>>>> device by issuing to the device a public key certificate which will
>>>>>>>> only be issued to the device
>>>>>>>> if it fulfills an expected set of functionalities. In such a case a
>>>>>>>> syntax for a trusted claim sets**is not needed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is indeed a possible way to address the problem, but suffers 
>>>>>>> from
>>>>>>> challenges which come down to:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> - Who issues such certificates. An option is that there is some 
>>>>>>> form of
>>>>>>> security certification behind this issuance otherwise it is of very
>>>>>>> limited value.
>>>>>>> - In order to capture the wide variety of different devices (I prefer
>>>>>>> "entity" here as it is more general than "device"), many 
>>>>>>> different forms
>>>>>>> of such certificates would be required. This ends up being much 
>>>>>>> the same
>>>>>>> thing as a set of claims.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Given the multiplicity of entities for which attestation might be
>>>>>>> useful, it seems to me that having the entity creator/manufacturer
>>>>>>> provide a set of claims which can be verified is more flexible than
>>>>>>> requiring a certificate. It seems likely to me that where a formal
>>>>>>> security certification is needed there will be a certificate 
>>>>>>> issued by
>>>>>>> the Certifying Body as one of the claims about an entity, but I can
>>>>>>> think of many cases (supply chain management, to take just one 
>>>>>>> example)
>>>>>>> where provenance is by far the most useful information.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm not in favour of changes to the charter in this direction.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The simplest cases should also be part of the framework.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Note: I personally appreciate that privacy is an aspect that
>>>>>>>> will/should be taken into consideration.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Denis
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As with the earlier draft, there are many references to verify and
>>>>>>>>> verifier in the lead up to the deliverable but no deliverables 
>>>>>>>>> describing
>>>>>>>>> verification rules. I'd like to see rules in one of these 
>>>>>>>>> documents and
>>>>>>>>> think it worth citing in the deliverables. Are bindings to 
>>>>>>>>> certificate
>>>>>>>>> management protocols out of scope?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 10/11/18, 9:49 AM, "RATS on behalf of Henk Birkholz"
>>>>>>>>> <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org> 
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of 
>>>>>>>>> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de 
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> 
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>  wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> sorry for the delay. Please find an updated charter proposal here:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_ietf-2Drats_charter_blob_RC2_ietf-2Drats-2Dcharter.md&d=DwIFaQ&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=sebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&m=p5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&s=rPzmwhcwy8eob4eMiwWzDg5DY-mcC5HYgQqhUGCZ2RI&e=
>>>>>>>>>> The BoF proponents tried to merge all comments and proposals on
>>>>>>>>>> keystores, existing solutions, provenance & device 
>>>>>>>>>> characteristics, etc
>>>>>>>>>> that were raised on the list - and align them in homogeneous 
>>>>>>>>>> fashion.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This draft is intended to focus the discussion and improve the 
>>>>>>>>>> wording.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Viele Grüße,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Henk
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 10/06/2018 08:23 AM, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Henk,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Bangkok IETF is getting close, will you be able to update the 
>>>>>>>>>>> charter
>>>>>>>>>>> for the attestation BoF to properly include EAT?  I sent you 
>>>>>>>>>>> some text
>>>>>>>>>>> that just needs to be pasted along with some comments. It 
>>>>>>>>>>> doesn’t look
>>>>>>>>>>> like there’s been any updates.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> LL
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> RATS mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org> <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_rats&d=DwIFaQ&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=sebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&m=p5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&s=xThsQTXgadltVkHTYpOWknadi7puxZt8O6XOIUm_bzo&e=
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> EAT mailing list
>>>>>>>>> EAT@ietf.org <mailto:EAT@ietf.org> <mailto:EAT@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_eat&d=DwIFaQ&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=sebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&m=p5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&s=N7kKkDdCvl_MNmB3Guyg9HC-kQnMrX1cP5w44SbDsAw&e=
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> EAT mailing list
>>>>>>>> EAT@ietf.org <mailto:EAT@ietf.org> <mailto:EAT@ietf.org> 
>>>>>>>> <mailto:EAT@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_eat&d=DwIFaQ&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=sebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&m=p5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&s=N7kKkDdCvl_MNmB3Guyg9HC-kQnMrX1cP5w44SbDsAw&e=
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> EAT mailing list
>>>>>>> EAT@ietf.org <mailto:EAT@ietf.org> <mailto:EAT@ietf.org>
>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_eat&d=DwIFaQ&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=sebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&m=p5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&s=N7kKkDdCvl_MNmB3Guyg9HC-kQnMrX1cP5w44SbDsAw&e=
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>             _______________________________________________
>>>>>>        EAT mailing list
>>>>>> EAT@ietf.org <mailto:EAT@ietf.org> <mailto:EAT@ietf.org>
>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_eat&d=DwIFaQ&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=sebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&m=p5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&s=N7kKkDdCvl_MNmB3Guyg9HC-kQnMrX1cP5w44SbDsAw&e=
>>>>>>              _______________________________________________
>>>>>>    EAT mailing list
>>>>>> EAT@ietf.org <mailto:EAT@ietf.org>
>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_eat&d=DwIFaQ&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=sebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&m=p5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&s=N7kKkDdCvl_MNmB3Guyg9HC-kQnMrX1cP5w44SbDsAw&e=
>>>>>>    IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any 
>>>>>> attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you 
>>>>>> are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender 
>>>>>> immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, 
>>>>>> use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any 
>>>>>> medium. Thank you.
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> EAT mailing list
>>>>> EAT@ietf.org <mailto:EAT@ietf.org> <mailto:EAT@ietf.org>
>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_eat&d=DwIFaQ&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=sebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&m=p5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&s=N7kKkDdCvl_MNmB3Guyg9HC-kQnMrX1cP5w44SbDsAw&e=
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> EAT mailing list
>>>> EAT@ietf.org <mailto:EAT@ietf.org> <mailto:EAT@ietf.org>
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> EAT mailing list
>> EAT@ietf.org <mailto:EAT@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat
> 


From nobody Sat Oct 20 03:42:02 2018
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Subject: [Rats] Preliminary RATS BoF Agenda
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Hi all,

please find below a first agenda draft for the RATS BoF ("may be subject 
to change") create by the BoF proponents. In order to support the 
discussion about intersection of RATS and EAT, we reserved a 
presentation slot for the EAT draft.

> RATS BOF Agenda at IETF 103 in Bangkok, Thailand
> Tuesday, November 6th, 2018, Chitlada 2
> Afternoon Session I 1350-1550 (UTC+7)
> 
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/103/floor-plan?room=chitlada-2
> 
> 0)  Minute Takers, Jabber Scribe, Bluesheets (chairs)
> 
> 1)  Hello Room & Agenda Bash (chairs)
> 
> 2)  Introduction & Summary of Current IETF Work (Ned & Henk)
> 
> 3)  The Entity Attestation Token (TBD)
> 
> 4)  Compromise Trustworthy Visibility in Working Systems (Eric)
> 
> 5)  Charter Text Discussion (Ned & Henk)
> 
> 6)  Wrap Up (chairs) 

The current plan is to limit presentations to approx. 15 min or shorter 
- item 5 is an exception to this rule as it is intended to be a kick-off 
presentation to start charter discussions in the time remaining until 
wrap up.

Viele Grüße,

Henk


From nobody Sat Oct 20 06:59:45 2018
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From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
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Cc: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net>, Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>, Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr>
To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
References: <5D773C02-5083-4B10-A705-782E28FD8ADB@island-resort.com> <f84515dd-2e1a-7e66-7c23-b16f8f425d2a@sit.fraunhofer.de> <D7E5069D.C2E65%carl@redhoundsoftware.com> <c72a3b6c-88f2-d452-96be-947a4be1d9c8@free.fr> <73EF502E-B68C-4106-8311-4897B4F2DF8C@qti.qualcomm.com> <b6c9ff4a-cc35-8175-3294-4e6ec366409f@sit.fraunhofer.de> <615BB1D3-29E3-468B-B988-84852F47742C@intel.com> <VI1PR0801MB211230882A5B0D594D66DCFDFAFD0@VI1PR0801MB2112.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com> <71A01CDA-380F-4A57-B601-02F9A2699471@intel.com> <6f28e6a4-1930-84b2-1399-8aed75e3a6b4@sit.fraunhofer.de> <FB52EAA1-21F9-4792-B6A2-B58BBFBB53D6@island-resort.com> <BN7PR05MB4097DAA623B0F77573982910BAFF0@BN7PR05MB4097.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <04976C31-F18C-4F99-847D-110641DCDE80@island-resort.com> <9c73f9b7-9129-c273-254e-465f92ab3650@sit.fraunhofer.de> <09818298-9FE1-430A-8045-A9A7E76ED64C@island-resort.com> <aaf49ef2-d161-aa9d-7b8a-fd852c5806c4@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT] Device Identity (was Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Attestation BoF charter updates?)
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Henk,

I think you are grossly misunderstanding EAT. I certainly wouldn=E2=80=99t=
 propose such an insecure system as you assume it is and folks like =
FIDO, Google and ARM would not be supporting systems that are very =
similar if it wasn=E2=80=99t a secure model. =20

It is true that EAT doesn=E2=80=99t directly specify how the remote =
party comes to know the key material on the device is authentic, but it =
leaves this out with foresight and intention so that the EAT claims can =
be used with key material established by IEEE-802.1AR, ECDAA as deployed =
by Intel, Googles Attestation Service and others to come.=20

I don=E2=80=99t think we can rely solely on IEEE-802.1AR. It has size =
issues for small devices. It has operational issues.  Maybe even some of =
the central / hierarchy issues that caused X.500 to fail.

The core picture and system diagram shows how this works and the loop. =
In this picture the IEEE-802.1AR roots/CAs correspond to the Entity =
Manufacturer box. EAT certainly doesn=E2=80=99t preclude a group of =
manufacturers getting together and running a central CA based on =
IEEE-802.1AR.

If EAT was just proof-of-possesion, then there would only be the one =
line from the Entity/Device to the Relying Party. There would be no =
provisioning step of any obtaining of Verification Keys.




LL





> On Oct 20, 2018, at 3:19 PM, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
>=20
> Hello Laurence,
>=20
> unfortunately, I am traveling at the moment, but let me try to address =
an eclectically chosen topic.
>=20
> In an attempt to answer your question "What is the definition of an =
=E2=80=9Cidentity document=E2=80=9D I will just reference
>=20
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-birkholz-core-coid-00#section-1
>=20
> for now (instead of writing a wall of text again. Sorry, if I do that =
sometimes, that does not always help...)
>=20
> Based on the reference text, the important principle here is that an =
identity document is signed using secret keys issued by a (sub) =
certificate authority that one or more entities *can* put trust into.
>=20
> In comparison, if a CWT is signed with key material deployed on the =
device in question, what you provide is proof-of-possession of that =
signing (most likely intended to be secret) key.
>=20
> Again, you *can* put trust into that proof-of-possession, but the =
trust relationships here can have vastly different semantics. In both =
cases though, putting trust into, for example, CoID (via TVP) or EAT =
(via PoP) is a decision, I think. If you choose to put trust into the =
signature of these CWT, both are Trusted Claim Sets - to you.
>=20
> This trust has unfortunately nothing to do with the actual =
trustworthiness of the thing in question. As Ned illustrated already, =
"in a closed ecosystem, the trust characteristics and properties may be =
implied". In consequence, if you choose to trust that possession of a =
key provides an appropriate level of confidence in trustworthiness - =
that is a decision you make.
>=20
> This does not provide actual evidence that a thing is really =
trustworthy. And providing this evidence via interoperable network =
protocols is the gap that RATS intent to address - not only in closed =
ecosystems, but also the Internet in general.
>=20
> IHTH,
>=20
> Henk
>=20
>=20
> On 10/20/2018 08:19 AM, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>> I consider /device identity/ an absolute critical part of our work. =
It is a critical part of most EAT use cases such as enrollment of IoT =
devices with IoT management systems. It is the first claim defined in =
EAT.
>> What is the definition of an =E2=80=9Cidentity document=E2=80=9D? =
Maybe you are thinking of it specifically as what was defined for IEEE =
Dev ID. If I recall, the identification claims for the device are in the =
subject DN of an X.509 certificate.
>> Seems like any EAT with an EUID in it could server well as an =
identity document too. It provides signed, secured proof of the identity =
of the device. It can include manufacturer info in addition to the EUID. =
The EAT style identity could be as tiny as 150 bytes in CBOR syntax. All =
you need to store on the device is the EUID and the signing key. Maybe =
they are even deterministically KDF=E2=80=99d from the same seed so you =
maybe you only need to store 32 bytes on the device.
>> EAT=E2=80=99s mention of X.509 in 1.4.2 is as one of many ways to =
establish key material so the remote / relying / verifying party can =
verify the signature. So yes, I think you have it correct below. =
(Technically speaking the private key associated with the X.509 cert is =
used to sign, not the X.509 cert or keys in the cert. The X.509 is only =
to help the verifier find and verify the verification key. You might =
even have a means to get it from some service based on a key ID and not =
even store it on the device).
>> It is an EAT design goal to keep /all/ the claims in the signed =
payload. That includes identity of the device, identity of the =
manufacturer and so on. That way you can use many different signing =
schemes (ECDAA, symmetric key, non-X.509 public key, X.509 pubic key, =
simple public key with just a key id=E2=80=A6) with the same claims.
>> LL
>>> On Oct 17, 2018, at 5:49 PM, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Hi Laurence,
>>>=20
>>> maybe I understand now where the general confusion is originating =
from.
>>>=20
>>> I dug through some parts of the EAT draft again and could it be that =
UIED are identifier and not an identities? They literally are claims =
(aka assertions) that can be signed as content of a CWT as illustrated =
in
>>>=20
>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mandyam-eat-00#section-1.4.2
>>>=20
>>> 1.4.2. talks about identity documents by mentioning "X.509 =
certificate chains or something similar but different". But as you =
highlighted anything with regard to that is explicitly intended _not_ to =
go into the EAT claim set as content, but is stored on the thing (or =
maybe on a thing that signs "on behalf of" the thing the EAT is about?) =
and consequently is only used to potentially sign the EAT claim set (via =
COSE). Is that correct?
>>>=20
>>> As a result, an EAT would never be able to act as an identity =
document itself, but the key material that comes along with an x.509 =
certificate (as one example of many highlighted) could be used to sign =
the EAT.
>>>=20
>>> RATS are able to use the "X.509 certificate chains or something =
similar but different" and the corresponding key material comes along =
with a certificate (as one example amongst others) to establish =
Attestation Provenance.
>>>=20
>>> Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>>>=20
>>> Henk
>>>=20
>>> On 10/17/2018 01:19 PM, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>>>> Wasn=E2=80=99t saying there was ambiguity in the TCG case. Not =
being a TCGer, was just was trying to understand what the TCG definition =
is.
>>>> Your mentioning 802.1AR DevID helps a lot as I have some knowledge =
of it.
>>>> I see now that my speculation about SW / config version was wrong. =
That=E2=80=99s fine. I only wrote it to try to get to clarity.
>>>> Thanks for help clarifying.
>>>> In EAT, we defined a UEID for what TCGer=E2=80=99s mean by =
=E2=80=9Cidentity":
>>>>    UEID's identify individual manufactured entities / devices such =
as a
>>>>    mobile phone, a water meter, a Bluetooth speaker or a networked
>>>>    security camera.  It may identify the entire device or a =
submodule or
>>>>    subsystem.  It does not identify types, models or classes of =
devices.
>>>>    It is akin to a serial number, though it does not have to be
>>>>    sequential.
>>>> See here =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mandyam-eat-00#section-3.1> for more =
on UEID.
>>>> In EAT there is a strong desire to separate the signing key =
material from UEID to have flexibility in the signing scheme. For =
example FIDO and Android both have privacy-preserving schemes were a =
signing key is shared by 100,000 devices. (Some use cases need privacy, =
some don=E2=80=99t, perhaps because of legal agreements with customers, =
and correlation between use cases and privacy schemes can=E2=80=99t be =
counted on for high-volume devices like mobile phones).
>>>> I don=E2=80=99t know what the right answer(s) is(are) in the design =
yet...
>>>> LL
>>>>> On Oct 17, 2018, at 4:26 PM, Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net =
<mailto:gfedorkow@juniper.net> <mailto:gfedorkow@juniper.net>> wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Hi Laurence,
>>>>>  I don't think there's ambiguity in the TCG case...  current work =
in attestation focuses on using the 802.1AR DevID spec, which =
corresponds exactly to one of your cases below -- it's a vendor, model =
and serial number.
>>>>>  It's true that TCG technology can be used to validate software =
integrity, but that's hardly the same as identity.
>>>>>  Considerations of user privacy commonly accepted in TCG would =
preclude the inclusion of software state as part of identity, =
practicalities aside.  In general, privacy considerations lead TCG to =
carefully avoid unauthorized disclosure of either software or hardware =
based assertions.
>>>>>  Let me know if I'm missing the point...
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>> /guy fedorkow, juniper networks
>>>>>=20
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com =
<mailto:lgl@island-resort.com> <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 12:31 AM
>>>>> To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>
>>>>> Cc: Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com <mailto:ned.smith@intel.com> =
<mailto:ned.smith@intel.com>>; Hannes Tschofenig =
<Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com <mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> =
<mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>>; rats@ietf.org =
<mailto:rats@ietf.org> <mailto:rats@ietf.org>; Jeremy O'Donoghue =
<jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com <mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com> =
<mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>>; Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr =
<mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr> <mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr>>; eat@ietf.org =
<mailto:eat@ietf.org> <mailto:eat@ietf.org>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [EAT] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Rats] Attestation BoF charter =
updates?
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I think the TCG has a certain developed notion of identity that is =
different from others.  A way to get sharper about what a particular =
identity means is to describe the space and how the identifier selects =
in the space.  Here=E2=80=99s a few examples:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> - The space is physical human beings with fingers. A fingerprint =
scanner select one of these humans. This is typical biometric auth.
>>>>> - The space is humans that know a password. A password =
authenticator selects the humans that know the password. Typical =
authentication.
>>>>> - The space is humans as legal entities / citizens with criminal =
records, passports and such. A national ID selects.
>>>>> - The space is physical manufactured devices from one maker.  A =
serial number narrows it down to one physical device.
>>>>> - The space is physical devices from one maker. A model number or =
version, narrows down to a subset of these devices.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> My understanding of the TCG world is that identities goes beyond =
any of the above because they include things like the version of the SW =
and configuration of the device. The identity is largely a hash of an =
identifier of the physical device, various SW components and various =
configuration states.  The point being that a change in any of these is =
a change in the security characteristics of the device and if it was =
trusted with a particular key or particular data in the past, that trust =
should be revoked until re established.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> - The space is physical devices from any maker
>>>>>  + Measurement of the SW (the SW versions)
>>>>>     + Measurements of some configuration
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Changing any of these change the identity of the device.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I know I hardly need to ask, but TCG folks, did I describe this =
correctly?
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> So that said, many, perhaps most, use cases for EAT do not want =
this kind of device identity. It is not a prerequisite for trusting  =
claims coming from the device. In some cases this level of identity =
seems extremely disruptive as small SW upgrades could result in re =
enrollment of biometrics. We already are annoyed when we have to answer =
security questions when start using a service from a new device.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I think this WG needs to address both this very tight TCG-style =
device identity and the more heuristic EAT-style =
claims-for-risk-engines. I could see multi-decade evolution where risk =
engine use cases want more and more of the tight TCG-style device =
identity as criminals become more adept at forging EAT-style claims. =
(Today risk engines work off of unsecured browser parameters).
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The Introduction in the charter seems entirely focused on the =
TCG-based identity use case. I think text should be added for EAT-style =
attestation. I will write some after some comments on this message.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> LL
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>> On Oct 16, 2018, at 8:24 PM, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> To quote Carsten, there is "the usual terminology problem about =
identity".
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Identifying vs. Identity brings back memories about an extensive =
discussion in SACM that in the end resulted in using Profiles...
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Profiles are the "things" that you can aggregate identity claims =
in (in SACM these claims are "Target Endpoint Characteristics", which =
are pretty much the same thing as Device Characteristics) - and you use =
the Profiles to (re-)identify target endpoints.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> In the scope of remote attestation procedures, I think that "just =
not calling" claim sets that are composed (amongst others) of =
identifying claims "identity documents" might just end up in making up =
another name for something that is effectively composing identity =
documents anyways. If calling the same thing something else helps in =
some way, I am all for it. But I am really not sure.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> That said, Ned's elaboration on the relationship of identity and =
attestation claims and corresponding claim semantics / trust semantics =
is spot on, I think.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Henk
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> On 10/16/2018 03:51 PM, Smith, Ned wrote:
>>>>>>> Agree with Hannes that identity discussion can lead to confusion =
as identity is often highly dependent on some sort of context (domain of =
interpretation).
>>>>>>> In order to have productive conversation about attestation and =
identity, it may be important to understand that attestation semantics =
sets the context for identity.
>>>>>>> * Attestation attributes have trust semantics (and trust =
semantics are interpreted through the eyes of the verifier). Identity =
attributes may also have trust semantics (in addition to identity =
semantics) hence can be regarded as playing a role in both identity and =
attestation. Since RATS should be interested primarily in trust =
semantics, it makes sense to understand, discuss and consider identity =
in terms of its trust semantics. Hence identity attributes are only =
interesting to RATS if they are useful for evaluating trust semantics.
>>>>>>> * In a closed ecosystem, the trust characteristics and =
properties may be implied because there often exists out-of-band =
processes that ensure the characteristics are applied (for example, if =
an IT organization sets a policy that all asymmetric keys are to be =
hardened using a smartcard, they can apply a deployment process where =
the IT professional verifies the smartcard is used during enrollment.) =
But in a non-closed ecosystem, there isn't an assumption that =
out-of-band processes exist. Attestation attempts to make explicit what =
otherwise is implicit and therefore subject to misinterpretation if the =
verifier, relying party and attester are not part of the same closed =
ecosystem. Implicit attestation therefore can lead to semantic confusion =
if we're not careful. Therefore, the rigor of treating implicit =
attestation claims (assertions assumed to exist but not explicitly =
named) should nevertheless be defined explicitly. Then, if there is a =
need for implicit attestation, the specifications that describe them can =
describe them in terms of an explicit definition.
>>>>>>> * In the context of asserting trust characteristics, the =
verifier needs to know that a set of characteristics applies to the =
instance of the endpoint being evaluated (aka the attester). (Otherwise =
a MITM could supply characteristics that may be valid, but don=E2=80=99t =
apply to the specific instance). Consequently, it makes sense to =
consider that *attestation* keys are needed to authenticate the endpoint =
being evaluated. This doesn't imply an identity key couldn't double as =
an attestation key. But if it does, we care about its relevance to the =
attester endpoint.
>>>>>>> -Ned
>>>>>>> =EF=BB=BFOn 10/15/18, 6:49 PM, "Hannes Tschofenig" =
<Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com <mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> =
<mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>    Here are my 5 cents on the term 'identity'.
>>>>>>>         I have been working on identity management for many =
years (partially because of my OAuth co-chair role) and I have noticed =
that the use of the term "identity" tends to confuse more than it helps =
(even more so when the term is applied to devices and software rather =
than humans).
>>>>>>>         I believe we could get away with describing what we want =
without ever using the term.
>>>>>>>         In this context I would argue that we are about =
identifying different components, such as hardware and software.
>>>>>>>         Ciao
>>>>>>>    Hannes
>>>>>>>         -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>    From: EAT <eat-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org> =
<mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf Of Smith, Ned
>>>>>>>    Sent: Monday, October 15, 2018 9:00 AM
>>>>>>>    To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>; rats@ietf.org =
<mailto:rats@ietf.org> <mailto:rats@ietf.org>; Jeremy O'Donoghue =
<jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com <mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com> =
<mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>>; Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr =
<mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr> <mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr>>
>>>>>>>    Cc: eat@ietf.org <mailto:eat@ietf.org> <mailto:eat@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>    Subject: Re: [EAT] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Rats] Attestation BoF =
charter updates?
>>>>>>>         I agree with Henk's observation that there is =
opportunity to find common ground on identity as identity can be a =
collection of attributes, that if signed, becomes a set of verifiable =
claims (about identity attributes). Attestation has a similar structure =
in that it consists of a set of attributes, that if signed becomes a set =
of verifiable claims. The main difference between identity and =
attestation attributes is whether the attribute semantically relate to =
trust (vs. identity). For example, claims of security certification =
compliance resonates as attestation.
>>>>>>>         It may be possible to combine a set of attestation =
attributes in such a way that the combination uniquely identifies an =
entity. But that doesn't make it an identity system per se and shouldn't =
cause a conflict in charter goals with respect to other identity focused =
efforts in IETF.
>>>>>>>         Also, inclusion of attributes that don't have semantics =
that reasonably relate to trust should not be of interest to a working =
group focused on attestation.
>>>>>>>         -Ned
>>>>>>>         On 10/15/18, 3:53 PM, "EAT on behalf of Henk Birkholz" =
<eat-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org> =
<mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of =
henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
>>>>>>>             Hi Jeremy & Denis,
>>>>>>>             all these points of view have merit, I think.
>>>>>>>             Please have a look at these quotes:
>>>>>>>> knowing the provenance of the device
>>>>>>>> having the entity creator/manufacturer provide a set of claims =
which can be verified
>>>>>>>> to know the characteristics of a device by issuing to the =
device a public key certificate which will only be issued to the device =
if it fulfills an expected set of functionalities.
>>>>>>>             To me, these descriptions seem to have different =
intents, scope or
>>>>>>>        audience and require most certainly different work-flows, =
but
>>>>>>>        semantically and in consequence representation-wise they =
also seem quite
>>>>>>>        related.
>>>>>>>             If you think of an identity document as a set of =
claims (potentially
>>>>>>>        including a public key), that is signed and that can =
match one or more
>>>>>>>        things, maybe all three types highlighted above are =
actually covered by
>>>>>>>        the same identity document concept?
>>>>>>>             With respect to identity documents, I think it is =
safe so say that we
>>>>>>>        can find common ground here rather easily. That said, the =
way how these
>>>>>>>        identity documents come into existence, when and how they =
are deployed
>>>>>>>        on the thing or associated with multiple things is =
another question. We
>>>>>>>        most certainly do not want to end up with a "signing =
fool" that does not
>>>>>>>        add value to the level of confidence (I am quoting Ned =
Smith here).
>>>>>>>             This has to be fleshed out explicitly for each =
scenario and the parts
>>>>>>>        that are reused in every scenario should get special =
attention in the
>>>>>>>        upcoming RATS architecture draft.
>>>>>>>             Identifying claims aggregated in an identity =
document most certainly can
>>>>>>>        include device characteristics, public key(s), or claims =
about the
>>>>>>>        intended functions and capabilities of the thing. Claims =
can even
>>>>>>>        originate from Claimants that are not the thing itself, =
but external
>>>>>>>        entities providing an assertion (e.g. these things are =
CC-certified).
>>>>>>>             All different composites of identifying claims have =
a specific shared
>>>>>>>        intend in this context though, I think: expressing =
Attestation
>>>>>>>        Provenance (again - one for one or more things of the =
same kind). And
>>>>>>>        all of them originate from Claimants and therefore use a =
root of trust
>>>>>>>        of measurement, I think.
>>>>>>>             That said, establishing trustworthy knowledge about =
attestation
>>>>>>>        provenance is only the first step and provides the =
foundation for more
>>>>>>>        complex attestation procedures. In any case, this seem to =
be required by
>>>>>>>        every scenario that was highlighted so far and therefore =
will most
>>>>>>>        certainly be covered in a deliverable.
>>>>>>>             IHTH,
>>>>>>>             Henk
>>>>>>>                  On 10/15/2018 12:22 PM, Jeremy O'Donoghue =
wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 12 Oct 2018, at 14:33, Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr =
<mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr> <mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr>
>>>>>>>> <mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> The "Problem Statement" continues as follows:
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> (2) Today, there is no common, standard way for Relying =
Parties to
>>>>>>>>> know the provenance and characteristics of a device (e.g., an =
end-user
>>>>>>>>> device,
>>>>>>>>> platform or endpoint, servers, IoT devices, device subsystems =
and
>>>>>>>>> sub-modules) that may be requesting services.
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> Knowing the provenance of the device is not always necessary. =
What is
>>>>>>>>> important is to know that a specific set of functions is =
(securely)
>>>>>>>>> supported by the device.
>>>>>>>>> There already exists a common way to know the characteristics =
of a
>>>>>>>>> device by issuing to the device a public key certificate which =
will
>>>>>>>>> only be issued to the device
>>>>>>>>> if it fulfills an expected set of functionalities. In such a =
case a
>>>>>>>>> syntax for a trusted claim sets**is not needed.
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> This is indeed a possible way to address the problem, but =
suffers from
>>>>>>>> challenges which come down to:
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> - Who issues such certificates. An option is that there is some =
form of
>>>>>>>> security certification behind this issuance otherwise it is of =
very
>>>>>>>> limited value.
>>>>>>>> - In order to capture the wide variety of different devices (I =
prefer
>>>>>>>> "entity" here as it is more general than "device"), many =
different forms
>>>>>>>> of such certificates would be required. This ends up being much =
the same
>>>>>>>> thing as a set of claims.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> Given the multiplicity of entities for which attestation might =
be
>>>>>>>> useful, it seems to me that having the entity =
creator/manufacturer
>>>>>>>> provide a set of claims which can be verified is more flexible =
than
>>>>>>>> requiring a certificate. It seems likely to me that where a =
formal
>>>>>>>> security certification is needed there will be a certificate =
issued by
>>>>>>>> the Certifying Body as one of the claims about an entity, but I =
can
>>>>>>>> think of many cases (supply chain management, to take just one =
example)
>>>>>>>> where provenance is by far the most useful information.
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> I'm not in favour of changes to the charter in this direction.
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> The simplest cases should also be part of the framework.
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> Note: I personally appreciate that privacy is an aspect that
>>>>>>>>> will/should be taken into consideration.
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>> Denis
>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> As with the earlier draft, there are many references to =
verify and
>>>>>>>>>> verifier in the lead up to the deliverable but no =
deliverables describing
>>>>>>>>>> verification rules. I'd like to see rules in one of these =
documents and
>>>>>>>>>> think it worth citing in the deliverables. Are bindings to =
certificate
>>>>>>>>>> management protocols out of scope?
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>> On 10/11/18, 9:49 AM, "RATS on behalf of Henk Birkholz"
>>>>>>>>>> <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org> =
<mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of =
henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>  wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> sorry for the delay. Please find an updated charter proposal =
here:
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>> =
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__github.com_ietf-2Dr=
ats_charter_blob_RC2_ietf-2Drats-2Dcharter.md&d=3DDwIFaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr=
6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=3DsebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VX=
hmfk&m=3Dp5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&s=3DrPzmwhcwy8eob4eMi=
wWzDg5DY-mcC5HYgQqhUGCZ2RI&e=3D
>>>>>>>>>>> The BoF proponents tried to merge all comments and proposals =
on
>>>>>>>>>>> keystores, existing solutions, provenance & device =
characteristics, etc
>>>>>>>>>>> that were raised on the list - and align them in homogeneous =
fashion.
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> This draft is intended to focus the discussion and improve =
the wording.
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> Henk
>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/06/2018 08:23 AM, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Henk,
>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>> Bangkok IETF is getting close, will you be able to update =
the charter
>>>>>>>>>>>> for the attestation BoF to properly include EAT?  I sent =
you some text
>>>>>>>>>>>> that just needs to be pasted along with some comments. It =
doesn=E2=80=99t look
>>>>>>>>>>>> like there=E2=80=99s been any updates.
>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>>> LL
>>>>>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> RATS mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org> <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> =
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n_listinfo_rats&d=3DDwIFaQ&c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI=
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>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> EAT mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> EAT@ietf.org <mailto:EAT@ietf.org> <mailto:EAT@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>> =
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Henk,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I =
think you are grossly misunderstanding EAT. I certainly wouldn=E2=80=99t =
propose such an insecure system as you assume it is and folks like FIDO, =
Google and ARM would not be supporting systems that are very similar if =
it wasn=E2=80=99t a secure model. &nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">It is true that EAT doesn=E2=80=99t =
directly specify how the remote party comes to know the key material on =
the device is authentic, but it leaves this out with foresight and =
intention so that the EAT claims can be used with key material =
established by IEEE-802.1AR, ECDAA as deployed by Intel, Googles =
Attestation Service and others to come.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I don=E2=80=99t think we can rely =
solely on IEEE-802.1AR. It has size issues for small devices. It has =
operational issues. &nbsp;Maybe even some of the central / hierarchy =
issues that caused X.500 to fail.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The core picture and system diagram =
shows how this works and the loop. In this picture the IEEE-802.1AR =
roots/CAs correspond to the Entity Manufacturer box. EAT certainly =
doesn=E2=80=99t preclude a group of manufacturers getting together and =
running a central CA based on IEEE-802.1AR.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If EAT was just proof-of-possesion, =
then there would only be the one line from the Entity/Device to the =
Relying Party. There would be no provisioning step of any obtaining of =
Verification Keys.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><img apple-inline=3D"yes" =
id=3D"7159ADCC-1B22-4BC1-B9B3-67B7B4481449" width=3D"883" height=3D"466" =
src=3D"cid:7ACD3186-5466-4E4B-8B88-A715B07CFC62" class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Oct =
20, 2018, at 3:19 PM, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">Hello =
Laurence,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">unfortunately, I am traveling at =
the moment, but let me try to address an eclectically chosen topic.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">In an attempt to answer your question "What is =
the definition of an =E2=80=9Cidentity document=E2=80=9D I will just =
reference<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-birkholz-core-coid-00#section-1"=
 =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-birkholz-core-coid-00#section=
-1</a><br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">for now (instead of =
writing a wall of text again. Sorry, if I do that sometimes, that does =
not always help...)<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Based on the reference =
text, the important principle here is that an identity document is =
signed using secret keys issued by a (sub) certificate authority that =
one or more entities *can* put trust into.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">In=
 comparison, if a CWT is signed with key material deployed on the device =
in question, what you provide is proof-of-possession of that signing =
(most likely intended to be secret) key.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Again, you *can* put trust into that proof-of-possession, but =
the trust relationships here can have vastly different semantics. In =
both cases though, putting trust into, for example, CoID (via TVP) or =
EAT (via PoP) is a decision, I think. If you choose to put trust into =
the signature of these CWT, both are Trusted Claim Sets - to you.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">This trust has unfortunately nothing to do =
with the actual trustworthiness of the thing in question. As Ned =
illustrated already, "in a closed ecosystem, the trust characteristics =
and properties may be implied". In consequence, if you choose to trust =
that possession of a key provides an appropriate level of confidence in =
trustworthiness - that is a decision you make.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">This does not provide actual evidence that a thing is really =
trustworthy. And providing this evidence via interoperable network =
protocols is the gap that RATS intent to address - not only in closed =
ecosystems, but also the Internet in general.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">IHTH,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Henk<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">On 10/20/2018 08:19 AM, Laurence Lundblade =
wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">I consider =
/device identity/ an absolute critical part of our work. It is a =
critical part of most EAT use cases such as enrollment of IoT devices =
with IoT management systems. It is the first claim defined in EAT.<br =
class=3D"">What is the definition of an =E2=80=9Cidentity document=E2=80=9D=
? Maybe you are thinking of it specifically as what was defined for IEEE =
Dev ID. If I recall, the identification claims for the device are in the =
subject DN of an X.509 certificate.<br class=3D"">Seems like any EAT =
with an EUID in it could server well as an identity document too. It =
provides signed, secured proof of the identity of the device. It can =
include manufacturer info in addition to the EUID. The EAT style =
identity could be as tiny as 150 bytes in CBOR syntax. All you need to =
store on the device is the EUID and the signing key. Maybe they are even =
deterministically KDF=E2=80=99d from the same seed so you maybe you only =
need to store 32 bytes on the device.<br class=3D"">EAT=E2=80=99s =
mention of X.509 in 1.4.2 is as one of many ways to establish key =
material so the remote / relying / verifying party can verify the =
signature. So yes, I think you have it correct below. (Technically =
speaking the private key associated with the X.509 cert is used to sign, =
not the X.509 cert or keys in the cert. The X.509 is only to help the =
verifier find and verify the verification key. You might even have a =
means to get it from some service based on a key ID and not even store =
it on the device).<br class=3D"">It is an EAT design goal to keep /all/ =
the claims in the signed payload. That includes identity of the device, =
identity of the manufacturer and so on. That way you can use many =
different signing schemes (ECDAA, symmetric key, non-X.509 public key, =
X.509 pubic key, simple public key with just a key id=E2=80=A6) with the =
same claims.<br class=3D"">LL<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">On Oct 17, 2018, at 5:49 PM, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Hi Laurence,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">maybe =
I understand now where the general confusion is originating from.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">I dug through some parts of the EAT draft =
again and could it be that UIED are identifier and not an identities? =
They literally are claims (aka assertions) that can be signed as content =
of a CWT as illustrated in<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mandyam-eat-00#section-1.4.2" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mandyam-eat-00#section-1.4.2<=
/a><br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">1.4.2. talks about =
identity documents by mentioning "X.509 certificate chains or something =
similar but different". But as you highlighted anything with regard to =
that is explicitly intended _not_ to go into the EAT claim set as =
content, but is stored on the thing (or maybe on a thing that signs "on =
behalf of" the thing the EAT is about?) and consequently is only used to =
potentially sign the EAT claim set (via COSE). Is that correct?<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">As a result, an EAT would never be able to act =
as an identity document itself, but the key material that comes along =
with an x.509 certificate (as one example of many highlighted) could be =
used to sign the EAT.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">RATS are able to use =
the "X.509 certificate chains or something similar but different" and =
the corresponding key material comes along with a certificate (as one =
example amongst others) to establish Attestation Provenance.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Henk<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">On 10/17/2018 01:19 PM, =
Laurence Lundblade wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">Wasn=E2=80=99t saying there was ambiguity in the TCG case. =
Not being a TCGer, was just was trying to understand what the TCG =
definition is.<br class=3D"">Your mentioning 802.1AR DevID helps a lot =
as I have some knowledge of it.<br class=3D"">I see now that my =
speculation about SW / config version was wrong. That=E2=80=99s fine. I =
only wrote it to try to get to clarity.<br class=3D"">Thanks for help =
clarifying.<br class=3D"">In EAT, we defined a UEID for what TCGer=E2=80=99=
s mean by =E2=80=9Cidentity":<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;UEID's =
identify individual manufactured entities / devices such as a<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;mobile phone, a water meter, a Bluetooth =
speaker or a networked<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;security camera. =
&nbsp;It may identify the entire device or a submodule or<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;subsystem. &nbsp;It does not identify =
types, models or classes of devices.<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;It =
is akin to a serial number, though it does not have to be<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;sequential.<br class=3D"">See here &lt;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mandyam-eat-00#section-3.1" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mandyam-eat-00#section-3.1</a=
>&gt; for more on UEID.<br class=3D"">In EAT there is a strong desire to =
separate the signing key material from UEID to have flexibility in the =
signing scheme. For example FIDO and Android both have =
privacy-preserving schemes were a signing key is shared by 100,000 =
devices. (Some use cases need privacy, some don=E2=80=99t, perhaps =
because of legal agreements with customers, and correlation between use =
cases and privacy schemes can=E2=80=99t be counted on for high-volume =
devices like mobile phones).<br class=3D"">I don=E2=80=99t know what the =
right answer(s) is(are) in the design yet...<br class=3D"">LL<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">On Oct 17, 2018, at 4:26 =
PM, Guy Fedorkow &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gfedorkow@juniper.net" =
class=3D"">gfedorkow@juniper.net</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:gfedorkow@juniper.net" =
class=3D"">mailto:gfedorkow@juniper.net</a>&gt; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:gfedorkow@juniper.net" =
class=3D"">mailto:gfedorkow@juniper.net</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Hi Laurence,<br class=3D"">&nbsp;I don't think =
there's ambiguity in the TCG case... &nbsp;current work in attestation =
focuses on using the 802.1AR DevID spec, which corresponds exactly to =
one of your cases below -- it's a vendor, model and serial number.<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;It's true that TCG technology can be used to validate =
software integrity, but that's hardly the same as identity.<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;Considerations of user privacy commonly accepted in TCG =
would preclude the inclusion of software state as part of identity, =
practicalities aside. &nbsp;In general, privacy considerations lead TCG =
to carefully avoid unauthorized disclosure of either software or =
hardware based assertions.<br class=3D"">&nbsp;Let me know if I'm =
missing the point...<br class=3D"">Thanks<br class=3D"">/guy fedorkow, =
juniper networks<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">-----Original =
Message-----<br class=3D"">From: Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</a>=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" =
class=3D"">mailto:lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" =
class=3D"">mailto:lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt;&gt;<br class=3D"">Sent: =
Wednesday, October 17, 2018 12:31 AM<br class=3D"">To: Henk Birkholz =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;&gt;<br =
class=3D"">Cc: Smith, Ned &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com" =
class=3D"">ned.smith@intel.com</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com" =
class=3D"">mailto:ned.smith@intel.com</a>&gt; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com" =
class=3D"">mailto:ned.smith@intel.com</a>&gt;&gt;; Hannes Tschofenig =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com" =
class=3D"">Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com" =
class=3D"">mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com</a>&gt; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com" =
class=3D"">mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com</a>&gt;&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" class=3D"">rats@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" class=3D"">mailto:rats@ietf.org</a>&gt; =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">mailto:rats@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Jeremy O'Donoghue &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com" =
class=3D"">jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com" =
class=3D"">mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com</a>&gt; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com" =
class=3D"">mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com</a>&gt;&gt;; Denis &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr" class=3D"">denis.ietf@free.fr</a> =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr" =
class=3D"">mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr</a>&gt; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr" =
class=3D"">mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr</a>&gt;&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:eat@ietf.org" class=3D"">eat@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:eat@ietf.org" class=3D"">mailto:eat@ietf.org</a>&gt; =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eat@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">mailto:eat@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">Subject: Re: [EAT] =
[EXTERNAL] Re: [Rats] Attestation BoF charter updates?<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">I think the TCG has a certain developed notion of identity =
that is different from others. &nbsp;A way to get sharper about what a =
particular identity means is to describe the space and how the =
identifier selects in the space. &nbsp;Here=E2=80=99s a few examples:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">- The space is physical human beings with =
fingers. A fingerprint scanner select one of these humans. This is =
typical biometric auth.<br class=3D"">- The space is humans that know a =
password. A password authenticator selects the humans that know the =
password. Typical authentication.<br class=3D"">- The space is humans as =
legal entities / citizens with criminal records, passports and such. A =
national ID selects.<br class=3D"">- The space is physical manufactured =
devices from one maker. &nbsp;A serial number narrows it down to one =
physical device.<br class=3D"">- The space is physical devices from one =
maker. A model number or version, narrows down to a subset of these =
devices.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">My understanding of the TCG world =
is that identities goes beyond any of the above because they include =
things like the version of the SW and configuration of the device. The =
identity is largely a hash of an identifier of the physical device, =
various SW components and various configuration states. &nbsp;The point =
being that a change in any of these is a change in the security =
characteristics of the device and if it was trusted with a particular =
key or particular data in the past, that trust should be revoked until =
re established.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">- The space is physical =
devices from any maker<br class=3D"">&nbsp;+ Measurement of the SW (the =
SW versions)<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;+ Measurements of =
some configuration<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Changing any of these =
change the identity of the device.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I know I =
hardly need to ask, but TCG folks, did I describe this correctly?<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">So that said, many, perhaps =
most, use cases for EAT do not want this kind of device identity. It is =
not a prerequisite for trusting &nbsp;claims coming from the device. In =
some cases this level of identity seems extremely disruptive as small SW =
upgrades could result in re enrollment of biometrics. We already are =
annoyed when we have to answer security questions when start using a =
service from a new device.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I think this WG =
needs to address both this very tight TCG-style device identity and the =
more heuristic EAT-style claims-for-risk-engines. I could see =
multi-decade evolution where risk engine use cases want more and more of =
the tight TCG-style device identity as criminals become more adept at =
forging EAT-style claims. (Today risk engines work off of unsecured =
browser parameters).<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">The Introduction in =
the charter seems entirely focused on the TCG-based identity use case. I =
think text should be added for EAT-style attestation. I will write some =
after some comments on this message.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">LL<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">On Oct 16, 2018, at =
8:24 PM, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">To quote Carsten, there is "the usual =
terminology problem about identity".<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Identifying vs. Identity brings back memories about an =
extensive discussion in SACM that in the end resulted in using =
Profiles...<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Profiles are the "things" that =
you can aggregate identity claims in (in SACM these claims are "Target =
Endpoint Characteristics", which are pretty much the same thing as =
Device Characteristics) - and you use the Profiles to (re-)identify =
target endpoints.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">In the scope of remote =
attestation procedures, I think that "just not calling" claim sets that =
are composed (amongst others) of identifying claims "identity documents" =
might just end up in making up another name for something that is =
effectively composing identity documents anyways. If calling the same =
thing something else helps in some way, I am all for it. But I am really =
not sure.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">That said, Ned's elaboration on =
the relationship of identity and attestation claims and corresponding =
claim semantics / trust semantics is spot on, I think.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Henk<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">On 10/16/2018 03:51 PM, Smith, Ned wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Agree with Hannes that =
identity discussion can lead to confusion as identity is often highly =
dependent on some sort of context (domain of interpretation).<br =
class=3D"">In order to have productive conversation about attestation =
and identity, it may be important to understand that attestation =
semantics sets the context for identity.<br class=3D"">* Attestation =
attributes have trust semantics (and trust semantics are interpreted =
through the eyes of the verifier). Identity attributes may also have =
trust semantics (in addition to identity semantics) hence can be =
regarded as playing a role in both identity and attestation. Since RATS =
should be interested primarily in trust semantics, it makes sense to =
understand, discuss and consider identity in terms of its trust =
semantics. Hence identity attributes are only interesting to RATS if =
they are useful for evaluating trust semantics.<br class=3D"">* In a =
closed ecosystem, the trust characteristics and properties may be =
implied because there often exists out-of-band processes that ensure the =
characteristics are applied (for example, if an IT organization sets a =
policy that all asymmetric keys are to be hardened using a smartcard, =
they can apply a deployment process where the IT professional verifies =
the smartcard is used during enrollment.) But in a non-closed ecosystem, =
there isn't an assumption that out-of-band processes exist. Attestation =
attempts to make explicit what otherwise is implicit and therefore =
subject to misinterpretation if the verifier, relying party and attester =
are not part of the same closed ecosystem. Implicit attestation =
therefore can lead to semantic confusion if we're not careful. =
Therefore, the rigor of treating implicit attestation claims (assertions =
assumed to exist but not explicitly named) should nevertheless be =
defined explicitly. Then, if there is a need for implicit attestation, =
the specifications that describe them can describe them in terms of an =
explicit definition.<br class=3D"">* In the context of asserting trust =
characteristics, the verifier needs to know that a set of =
characteristics applies to the instance of the endpoint being evaluated =
(aka the attester). (Otherwise a MITM could supply characteristics that =
may be valid, but don=E2=80=99t apply to the specific instance). =
Consequently, it makes sense to consider that *attestation* keys are =
needed to authenticate the endpoint being evaluated. This doesn't imply =
an identity key couldn't double as an attestation key. But if it does, =
we care about its relevance to the attester endpoint.<br =
class=3D"">-Ned<br class=3D"">=EF=BB=BFOn 10/15/18, 6:49 PM, "Hannes =
Tschofenig" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com" =
class=3D"">Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com" =
class=3D"">mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com</a>&gt; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com" =
class=3D"">mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Here are my 5 cents on the term =
'identity'.<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I have been =
working on identity management for many years (partially because of my =
OAuth co-chair role) and I have noticed that the use of the term =
"identity" tends to confuse more than it helps (even more so when the =
term is applied to devices and software rather than humans).<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I believe we =
could get away with describing what we want without ever using the =
term.<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;In =
this context I would argue that we are about identifying different =
components, such as hardware and software.<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Ciao<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Hannes<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;-----Original =
Message-----<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;From: EAT &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org" class=3D"">eat-bounces@ietf.org</a> =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt; On Behalf Of Smith, =
Ned<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Sent: Monday, October 15, 2018 9:00 =
AM<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;To: Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" class=3D"">rats@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" class=3D"">mailto:rats@ietf.org</a>&gt; =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">mailto:rats@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Jeremy O'Donoghue &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com" =
class=3D"">jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com" =
class=3D"">mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com</a>&gt; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com" =
class=3D"">mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com</a>&gt;&gt;; Denis &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr" class=3D"">denis.ietf@free.fr</a> =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr" =
class=3D"">mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr</a>&gt; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr" =
class=3D"">mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr</a>&gt;&gt;<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:eat@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">eat@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eat@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">mailto:eat@ietf.org</a>&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eat@ietf.org"=
 class=3D"">mailto:eat@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Subject: Re: [EAT] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Rats] =
Attestation BoF charter updates?<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I agree with =
Henk's observation that there is opportunity to find common ground on =
identity as identity can be a collection of attributes, that if signed, =
becomes a set of verifiable claims (about identity attributes). =
Attestation has a similar structure in that it consists of a set of =
attributes, that if signed becomes a set of verifiable claims. The main =
difference between identity and attestation attributes is whether the =
attribute semantically relate to trust (vs. identity). For example, =
claims of security certification compliance resonates as attestation.<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;It may be =
possible to combine a set of attestation attributes in such a way that =
the combination uniquely identifies an entity. But that doesn't make it =
an identity system per se and shouldn't cause a conflict in charter =
goals with respect to other identity focused efforts in IETF.<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Also, =
inclusion of attributes that don't have semantics that reasonably relate =
to trust should not be of interest to a working group focused on =
attestation.<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;-Ned<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;On 10/15/18, =
3:53 PM, "EAT on behalf of Henk Birkholz" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org" class=3D"">eat-bounces@ietf.org</a> =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of <a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;Hi Jeremy &amp; Denis,<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;all these points of view have merit, I think.<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;Please have a look at these quotes:<br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"">knowing the provenance of the device<br =
class=3D"">having the entity creator/manufacturer provide a set of =
claims which can be verified<br class=3D"">to know the characteristics =
of a device by issuing to the device a public key certificate which will =
only be issued to the device if it fulfills an expected set of =
functionalities.<br =
class=3D""></blockquote>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;To me, these descriptions seem to have different =
intents, scope or<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;audience and =
require most certainly different work-flows, but<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;semantically and in =
consequence representation-wise they also seem quite<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;related.<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;If you think of an identity document as a set of claims =
(potentially<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;including a public =
key), that is signed and that can match one or more<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;things, maybe all =
three types highlighted above are actually covered by<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;the same identity =
document concept?<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;With respect to identity documents, I think it is safe so say =
that we<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;can find =
common ground here rather easily. That said, the way how these<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;identity documents =
come into existence, when and how they are deployed<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;on the thing or =
associated with multiple things is another question. We<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;most certainly do =
not want to end up with a "signing fool" that does not<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;add value to the =
level of confidence (I am quoting Ned Smith here).<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;This has to be fleshed out explicitly for each scenario and the =
parts<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;that are =
reused in every scenario should get special attention in the<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;upcoming RATS =
architecture draft.<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;Identifying claims aggregated in an identity document most =
certainly can<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;include device =
characteristics, public key(s), or claims about the<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;intended functions =
and capabilities of the thing. Claims can even<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;originate from =
Claimants that are not the thing itself, but external<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;entities providing =
an assertion (e.g. these things are CC-certified).<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;All different composites of identifying claims have a specific =
shared<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;intend in =
this context though, I think: expressing Attestation<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Provenance (again - =
one for one or more things of the same kind). And<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;all of them =
originate from Claimants and therefore use a root of trust<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;of measurement, I =
think.<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;That said, establishing trustworthy knowledge about =
attestation<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;provenance is only =
the first step and provides the foundation for more<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;complex attestation =
procedures. In any case, this seem to be required by<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;every scenario that =
was highlighted so far and therefore will most<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;certainly be =
covered in a deliverable.<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;IHTH,<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;Henk<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;On 10/15/2018 12:22 PM, Jeremy =
O'Donoghue wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">On =
12 Oct 2018, at 14:33, Denis &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr" =
class=3D"">denis.ietf@free.fr</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr" =
class=3D"">mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr</a>&gt; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr" =
class=3D"">mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr" =
class=3D"">mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">The "Problem Statement" =
continues as follows:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">(2) Today, there is =
no common, standard way for Relying Parties to<br class=3D"">know the =
provenance and characteristics of a device (e.g., an end-user<br =
class=3D"">device,<br class=3D"">platform or endpoint, servers, IoT =
devices, device subsystems and<br class=3D"">sub-modules) that may be =
requesting services.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Knowing the provenance =
of the device is not always necessary. What is<br class=3D"">important =
is to know that a specific set of functions is (securely)<br =
class=3D"">supported by the device.<br class=3D"">There already exists a =
common way to know the characteristics of a<br class=3D"">device by =
issuing to the device a public key certificate which will<br =
class=3D"">only be issued to the device<br class=3D"">if it fulfills an =
expected set of functionalities. In such a case a<br class=3D"">syntax =
for a trusted claim sets**is not needed.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></blockquote>This is indeed a possible way to address the =
problem, but suffers from<br class=3D"">challenges which come down =
to:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">- Who issues such certificates. An =
option is that there is some form of<br class=3D"">security =
certification behind this issuance otherwise it is of very<br =
class=3D"">limited value.<br class=3D"">- In order to capture the wide =
variety of different devices (I prefer<br class=3D"">"entity" here as it =
is more general than "device"), many different forms<br class=3D"">of =
such certificates would be required. This ends up being much the same<br =
class=3D"">thing as a set of claims.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Given =
the multiplicity of entities for which attestation might be<br =
class=3D"">useful, it seems to me that having the entity =
creator/manufacturer<br class=3D"">provide a set of claims which can be =
verified is more flexible than<br class=3D"">requiring a certificate. It =
seems likely to me that where a formal<br class=3D"">security =
certification is needed there will be a certificate issued by<br =
class=3D"">the Certifying Body as one of the claims about an entity, but =
I can<br class=3D"">think of many cases (supply chain management, to =
take just one example)<br class=3D"">where provenance is by far the most =
useful information.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I'm not in favour of =
changes to the charter in this direction.<br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D"">The simplest cases should also =
be part of the framework.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Note: I =
personally appreciate that privacy is an aspect that<br =
class=3D"">will/should be taken into consideration.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Denis<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">As with the earlier draft, there are many references to =
verify and<br class=3D"">verifier in the lead up to the deliverable but =
no deliverables describing<br class=3D"">verification rules. I'd like to =
see rules in one of these documents and<br class=3D"">think it worth =
citing in the deliverables. Are bindings to certificate<br =
class=3D"">management protocols out of scope?<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">On 10/11/18, 9:49 AM, "RATS on behalf of Henk Birkholz"<br =
class=3D"">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of <a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;&gt; =
&nbsp;wrote:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">Hi all,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">sorry for the delay. =
Please find an updated charter proposal here:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__github.com_=
ietf-2Drats_charter_blob_RC2_ietf-2Drats-2Dcharter.md&amp;d=3DDwIFaQ&amp;c=
=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DsebUyXCidr_CEuZObmO=
ub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&amp;m=3Dp5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyW=
GM&amp;s=3DrPzmwhcwy8eob4eMiwWzDg5DY-mcC5HYgQqhUGCZ2RI&amp;e=3D" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__github.c=
om_ietf-2Drats_charter_blob_RC2_ietf-2Drats-2Dcharter.md&amp;d=3DDwIFaQ&am=
p;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DsebUyXCidr_CEuZO=
bmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&amp;m=3Dp5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AU=
wyWGM&amp;s=3DrPzmwhcwy8eob4eMiwWzDg5DY-mcC5HYgQqhUGCZ2RI&amp;e=3D</a><br =
class=3D""></blockquote>The BoF proponents tried to merge all comments =
and proposals on<br class=3D"">keystores, existing solutions, provenance =
&amp; device characteristics, etc<br class=3D"">that were raised on the =
list - and align them in homogeneous fashion.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">This draft is intended to focus the discussion and improve =
the wording.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Henk<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">On =
10/06/2018 08:23 AM, Laurence Lundblade wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Hi Henk,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Bangkok =
IETF is getting close, will you be able to update the charter<br =
class=3D"">for the attestation BoF to properly include EAT? &nbsp;I sent =
you some text<br class=3D"">that just needs to be pasted along with some =
comments. It doesn=E2=80=99t look<br class=3D"">like there=E2=80=99s =
been any updates.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">LL<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></blockquote>_______________________________________________<br=
 class=3D"">RATS mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" class=3D"">RATS@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" class=3D"">mailto:RATS@ietf.org</a>&gt; =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">mailto:RATS@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mailman_listinfo_rats&amp;d=3DDwIFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK=
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=3Dp5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&amp;s=3DxThsQTXgadltVkHTYpO=
Wknadi7puxZt8O6XOIUm_bzo&amp;e=3D" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf=
.org_mailman_listinfo_rats&amp;d=3DDwIFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBX=
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p;m=3Dp5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&amp;s=3DxThsQTXgadltVkHT=
YpOWknadi7puxZt8O6XOIUm_bzo&amp;e=3D</a><br =
class=3D""></blockquote>_______________________________________________<br=
 class=3D"">EAT mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:EAT@ietf.org"=
 class=3D"">EAT@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:EAT@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">mailto:EAT@ietf.org</a>&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:EAT@ietf.org"=
 class=3D"">mailto:EAT@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
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ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DsebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&amp;m=3D=
p5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&amp;s=3DN7kKkDdCvl_MNmB3Guyg9H=
C-kQnMrX1cP5w44SbDsAw&amp;e=3D" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf=
.org_mailman_listinfo_eat&amp;d=3DDwIFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXe=
MK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DsebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&amp=
;m=3Dp5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&amp;s=3DN7kKkDdCvl_MNmB3G=
uyg9HC-kQnMrX1cP5w44SbDsAw&amp;e=3D</a><br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">EAT mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:EAT@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">EAT@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:EAT@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">mailto:EAT@ietf.org</a>&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:EAT@ietf.org"=
 class=3D"">mailto:EAT@ietf.org</a>&gt; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:EAT@ietf.org" class=3D"">mailto:EAT@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mailman_listinfo_eat&amp;d=3DDwIFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-=
ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DsebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&amp;m=3D=
p5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&amp;s=3DN7kKkDdCvl_MNmB3Guyg9H=
C-kQnMrX1cP5w44SbDsAw&amp;e=3D" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf=
.org_mailman_listinfo_eat&amp;d=3DDwIFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXe=
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;m=3Dp5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&amp;s=3DN7kKkDdCvl_MNmB3G=
uyg9HC-kQnMrX1cP5w44SbDsAw&amp;e=3D</a><br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">EAT mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:EAT@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">EAT@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:EAT@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">mailto:EAT@ietf.org</a>&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:EAT@ietf.org"=
 class=3D"">mailto:EAT@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mailman_listinfo_eat&amp;d=3DDwIFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-=
ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DsebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&amp;m=3D=
p5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&amp;s=3DN7kKkDdCvl_MNmB3Guyg9H=
C-kQnMrX1cP5w44SbDsAw&amp;e=3D" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf=
.org_mailman_listinfo_eat&amp;d=3DDwIFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXe=
MK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DsebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&amp=
;m=3Dp5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&amp;s=3DN7kKkDdCvl_MNmB3G=
uyg9HC-kQnMrX1cP5w44SbDsAw&amp;e=3D</a><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></blockquote>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;EAT mailing list<br =
class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:EAT@ietf.org" class=3D"">EAT@ietf.org</a> =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:EAT@ietf.org" class=3D"">mailto:EAT@ietf.org</a>&gt;=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:EAT@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">mailto:EAT@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
g_mailman_listinfo_eat&amp;d=3DDwIFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-=
ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=3DsebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&amp;m=3D=
p5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&amp;s=3DN7kKkDdCvl_MNmB3Guyg9H=
C-kQnMrX1cP5w44SbDsAw&amp;e=3D" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf=
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uyg9HC-kQnMrX1cP5w44SbDsAw&amp;e=3D</a><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;EAT mailing list<br class=3D"">EAT@ietf.org =
&lt;mailto:EAT@ietf.org&gt;<br =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf=
.org_mailman_listinfo_eat&amp;d=3DDwIFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXe=
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uyg9HC-kQnMrX1cP5w44SbDsAw&amp;e=3D<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this =
email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. =
If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender =
immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it =
for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank =
you.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></blockquote>_______________________________________________<br=
 class=3D"">EAT mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:EAT@ietf.org"=
 class=3D"">EAT@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:EAT@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">mailto:EAT@ietf.org</a>&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:EAT@ietf.org"=
 class=3D"">mailto:EAT@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.or=
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p5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&amp;s=3DN7kKkDdCvl_MNmB3Guyg9H=
C-kQnMrX1cP5w44SbDsAw&amp;e=3D" =
class=3D"">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf=
.org_mailman_listinfo_eat&amp;d=3DDwIFaQ&amp;c=3DHAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXe=
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;m=3Dp5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&amp;s=3DN7kKkDdCvl_MNmB3G=
uyg9HC-kQnMrX1cP5w44SbDsAw&amp;e=3D</a><br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
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class=3D"">EAT@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:EAT@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">mailto:EAT@ietf.org</a>&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:EAT@ietf.org"=
 class=3D"">mailto:EAT@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><a =
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class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat</a><br =
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class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
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class=3D"">EAT@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:EAT@ietf.org" =
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href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat</a><br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
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class=3D"">EAT@ietf.org</a><br =
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class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net>, Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, "Jeremy O'Donoghue" <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>, Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr>
References: <5D773C02-5083-4B10-A705-782E28FD8ADB@island-resort.com> <f84515dd-2e1a-7e66-7c23-b16f8f425d2a@sit.fraunhofer.de> <D7E5069D.C2E65%carl@redhoundsoftware.com> <c72a3b6c-88f2-d452-96be-947a4be1d9c8@free.fr> <73EF502E-B68C-4106-8311-4897B4F2DF8C@qti.qualcomm.com> <b6c9ff4a-cc35-8175-3294-4e6ec366409f@sit.fraunhofer.de> <615BB1D3-29E3-468B-B988-84852F47742C@intel.com> <VI1PR0801MB211230882A5B0D594D66DCFDFAFD0@VI1PR0801MB2112.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com> <71A01CDA-380F-4A57-B601-02F9A2699471@intel.com> <6f28e6a4-1930-84b2-1399-8aed75e3a6b4@sit.fraunhofer.de> <FB52EAA1-21F9-4792-B6A2-B58BBFBB53D6@island-resort.com> <BN7PR05MB4097DAA623B0F77573982910BAFF0@BN7PR05MB4097.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <04976C31-F18C-4F99-847D-110641DCDE80@island-resort.com> <9c73f9b7-9129-c273-254e-465f92ab3650@sit.fraunhofer.de> <09818298-9FE1-430A-8045-A9A7E76ED64C@island-resort.com> <aaf49ef2-d161-aa9d-7b8a-fd852c5806c4@sit.fraunhofer.de> <35F3F15E-5B24-4CBA-921E-FAC50A1F3122@island-resort.com>
From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 16:56:10 +0200
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT] Device Identity (was Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Attestation BoF charter updates?)
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Hello Laurence,

well... I was actually including this picture as it is the only 
complementary material to the EAT draft that I know of. And I am 
perplexed how you think I was implying that EAT or CoID are insecure. 
How did I make the impression to have suggested that? It seems to me 
that I am unable to convey a very fundamental concept here, of which I 
assumed that it was way more obvious. And I am a bit afraid that our 
dialog is becoming somewhat circular.

I get the step named "provision private keys during manufacturing". In a 
given scope (probably in this case defined by the manufacturer) the 
decision (let's call it design) is to trust the keys deployed (in this 
scenario it seems to be a secret signing key, which is an assumption!), 
right? Where did I dispute that?

Wrt the "verification keys" I am not so sure, what the diagram means by 
that. With an asymmetric key-pair these would probably be public keys to 
check the signature by (I assume)?

My point is that evidence about system integrity (first phase of RATS 
WG) are just something else then putting trust in identity documents, 
deployed keys or signed claim sets - that is all :-)

Further comments in-line:

On 10/20/2018 03:59 PM, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
> Henk,
> 
> I think you are grossly misunderstanding EAT. I certainly wouldn’t 
> propose such an insecure system as you assume it is and folks like FIDO, 
> Google and ARM would not be supporting systems that are very similar if 
> it wasn’t a secure model.

I was not remotely (sorry for the pun) assuming that this 'system' was 
insecure - how should I be able to assess that? I was trying to 
highlight what trust means in the scope of identity documents and 
corresponding key material. That was the question, correct? And:

1.) trust is does not guarantee trustworthiness
2.) trusted claims are not always attestation evidence

It depends on the 'system' to use your wording, and if you trust that 
system or the way it is designed you can derive meaning from that trust.

Could you please explain to me what I got wrong here? I seem to miss 
something very obvious.

> 
> It is true that EAT doesn’t directly specify how the remote party comes 
> to know the key material on the device is authentic, but it leaves this 
> out with foresight and intention so that the EAT claims can be used with 
> key material established by IEEE-802.1AR, ECDAA as deployed by Intel, 
> Googles Attestation Service and others to come.

Our current understanding is also assuming out-of-band mechanisms that 
provide, for example, claim semantics. Still, trusting key material that 
is deployed with foresight and intention is based - obviously... - on 
trust. That is the only point I am trying to make here. RATS require 
similar trust relationships in order to trust Attestation Provenance. 
That is how trust relationships work, right?

> 
> I don’t think we can rely solely on IEEE-802.1AR. It has size issues for 
> small devices. It has operational issues.  Maybe even some of the 
> central / hierarchy issues that caused X.500 to fail.

Correct. That is why we started to incubate the Concise Identity draft.

> 
> The core picture and system diagram shows how this works and the loop. 
> In this picture the IEEE-802.1AR roots/CAs correspond to the Entity 
> Manufacturer box. EAT certainly doesn’t preclude a group of 
> manufacturers getting together and running a central CA based on 
> IEEE-802.1AR.

I also assumed exactly that, how else would you trust the corresponding 
identity documents?

> 
> If EAT was just proof-of-possesion, then there would only be the one 
> line from the Entity/Device to the Relying Party. There would be no 
> provisioning step of any obtaining of Verification Keys.

This is not true. You get the keys from from somewhere (or they are 
create by the thing itself, which requires some type of CSR anyways), 
you get the signed identity documents from somewhere.... I thought it 
was very obvious that I am not implying that there is no provisioning 
step - how would that even work?

Possession has meaning to it. That is the whole point of possessing a 
key as you pointed out above. Trusting that meaning enables you to 
assume a trustworthy devices, but there are additional methods, such as 
explicit attestation, that provide you with more evidence for the 
purpose of assessing device trustworthiness.


Viele Grüße,

Henk


> 
> 
> 
> LL
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Oct 20, 2018, at 3:19 PM, Henk Birkholz 
>> <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de 
>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
>>
>> Hello Laurence,
>>
>> unfortunately, I am traveling at the moment, but let me try to address 
>> an eclectically chosen topic.
>>
>> In an attempt to answer your question "What is the definition of an 
>> “identity document” I will just reference
>>
>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-birkholz-core-coid-00#section-1
>>
>> for now (instead of writing a wall of text again. Sorry, if I do that 
>> sometimes, that does not always help...)
>>
>> Based on the reference text, the important principle here is that an 
>> identity document is signed using secret keys issued by a (sub) 
>> certificate authority that one or more entities *can* put trust into.
>>
>> In comparison, if a CWT is signed with key material deployed on the 
>> device in question, what you provide is proof-of-possession of that 
>> signing (most likely intended to be secret) key.
>>
>> Again, you *can* put trust into that proof-of-possession, but the 
>> trust relationships here can have vastly different semantics. In both 
>> cases though, putting trust into, for example, CoID (via TVP) or EAT 
>> (via PoP) is a decision, I think. If you choose to put trust into the 
>> signature of these CWT, both are Trusted Claim Sets - to you.
>>
>> This trust has unfortunately nothing to do with the actual 
>> trustworthiness of the thing in question. As Ned illustrated already, 
>> "in a closed ecosystem, the trust characteristics and properties may 
>> be implied". In consequence, if you choose to trust that possession of 
>> a key provides an appropriate level of confidence in trustworthiness - 
>> that is a decision you make.
>>
>> This does not provide actual evidence that a thing is really 
>> trustworthy. And providing this evidence via interoperable network 
>> protocols is the gap that RATS intent to address - not only in closed 
>> ecosystems, but also the Internet in general.
>>
>> IHTH,
>>
>> Henk
>>
>>
>> On 10/20/2018 08:19 AM, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>>> I consider /device identity/ an absolute critical part of our work. 
>>> It is a critical part of most EAT use cases such as enrollment of IoT 
>>> devices with IoT management systems. It is the first claim defined in 
>>> EAT.
>>> What is the definition of an “identity document”? Maybe you are 
>>> thinking of it specifically as what was defined for IEEE Dev ID. If I 
>>> recall, the identification claims for the device are in the subject 
>>> DN of an X.509 certificate.
>>> Seems like any EAT with an EUID in it could server well as an 
>>> identity document too. It provides signed, secured proof of the 
>>> identity of the device. It can include manufacturer info in addition 
>>> to the EUID. The EAT style identity could be as tiny as 150 bytes in 
>>> CBOR syntax. All you need to store on the device is the EUID and the 
>>> signing key. Maybe they are even deterministically KDF’d from the 
>>> same seed so you maybe you only need to store 32 bytes on the device.
>>> EAT’s mention of X.509 in 1.4.2 is as one of many ways to establish 
>>> key material so the remote / relying / verifying party can verify the 
>>> signature. So yes, I think you have it correct below. (Technically 
>>> speaking the private key associated with the X.509 cert is used to 
>>> sign, not the X.509 cert or keys in the cert. The X.509 is only to 
>>> help the verifier find and verify the verification key. You might 
>>> even have a means to get it from some service based on a key ID and 
>>> not even store it on the device).
>>> It is an EAT design goal to keep /all/ the claims in the signed 
>>> payload. That includes identity of the device, identity of the 
>>> manufacturer and so on. That way you can use many different signing 
>>> schemes (ECDAA, symmetric key, non-X.509 public key, X.509 pubic key, 
>>> simple public key with just a key id…) with the same claims.
>>> LL
>>>> On Oct 17, 2018, at 5:49 PM, Henk Birkholz 
>>>> <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de 
>>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> 
>>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Laurence,
>>>>
>>>> maybe I understand now where the general confusion is originating from.
>>>>
>>>> I dug through some parts of the EAT draft again and could it be that 
>>>> UIED are identifier and not an identities? They literally are claims 
>>>> (aka assertions) that can be signed as content of a CWT as 
>>>> illustrated in
>>>>
>>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mandyam-eat-00#section-1.4.2
>>>>
>>>> 1.4.2. talks about identity documents by mentioning "X.509 
>>>> certificate chains or something similar but different". But as you 
>>>> highlighted anything with regard to that is explicitly intended 
>>>> _not_ to go into the EAT claim set as content, but is stored on the 
>>>> thing (or maybe on a thing that signs "on behalf of" the thing the 
>>>> EAT is about?) and consequently is only used to potentially sign the 
>>>> EAT claim set (via COSE). Is that correct?
>>>>
>>>> As a result, an EAT would never be able to act as an identity 
>>>> document itself, but the key material that comes along with an x.509 
>>>> certificate (as one example of many highlighted) could be used to 
>>>> sign the EAT.
>>>>
>>>> RATS are able to use the "X.509 certificate chains or something 
>>>> similar but different" and the corresponding key material comes 
>>>> along with a certificate (as one example amongst others) to 
>>>> establish Attestation Provenance.
>>>>
>>>> Viele Grüße,
>>>>
>>>> Henk
>>>>
>>>> On 10/17/2018 01:19 PM, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>>>>> Wasn’t saying there was ambiguity in the TCG case. Not being a 
>>>>> TCGer, was just was trying to understand what the TCG definition is.
>>>>> Your mentioning 802.1AR DevID helps a lot as I have some knowledge 
>>>>> of it.
>>>>> I see now that my speculation about SW / config version was wrong. 
>>>>> That’s fine. I only wrote it to try to get to clarity.
>>>>> Thanks for help clarifying.
>>>>> In EAT, we defined a UEID for what TCGer’s mean by “identity":
>>>>>    UEID's identify individual manufactured entities / devices such as a
>>>>>    mobile phone, a water meter, a Bluetooth speaker or a networked
>>>>>    security camera.  It may identify the entire device or a 
>>>>> submodule or
>>>>>    subsystem.  It does not identify types, models or classes of 
>>>>> devices.
>>>>>    It is akin to a serial number, though it does not have to be
>>>>>    sequential.
>>>>> See here 
>>>>> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mandyam-eat-00#section-3.1> for 
>>>>> more on UEID.
>>>>> In EAT there is a strong desire to separate the signing key 
>>>>> material from UEID to have flexibility in the signing scheme. For 
>>>>> example FIDO and Android both have privacy-preserving schemes were 
>>>>> a signing key is shared by 100,000 devices. (Some use cases need 
>>>>> privacy, some don’t, perhaps because of legal agreements with 
>>>>> customers, and correlation between use cases and privacy schemes 
>>>>> can’t be counted on for high-volume devices like mobile phones).
>>>>> I don’t know what the right answer(s) is(are) in the design yet...
>>>>> LL
>>>>>> On Oct 17, 2018, at 4:26 PM, Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net 
>>>>>> <mailto:gfedorkow@juniper.net> <mailto:gfedorkow@juniper.net> 
>>>>>> <mailto:gfedorkow@juniper.net>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Laurence,
>>>>>>  I don't think there's ambiguity in the TCG case...  current work 
>>>>>> in attestation focuses on using the 802.1AR DevID spec, which 
>>>>>> corresponds exactly to one of your cases below -- it's a vendor, 
>>>>>> model and serial number.
>>>>>>  It's true that TCG technology can be used to validate software 
>>>>>> integrity, but that's hardly the same as identity.
>>>>>>  Considerations of user privacy commonly accepted in TCG would 
>>>>>> preclude the inclusion of software state as part of identity, 
>>>>>> practicalities aside.  In general, privacy considerations lead TCG 
>>>>>> to carefully avoid unauthorized disclosure of either software or 
>>>>>> hardware based assertions.
>>>>>>  Let me know if I'm missing the point...
>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>> /guy fedorkow, juniper networks
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com 
>>>>>> <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com> <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com> 
>>>>>> <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>>
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 12:31 AM
>>>>>> To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de 
>>>>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> 
>>>>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> 
>>>>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>
>>>>>> Cc: Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com <mailto:ned.smith@intel.com> 
>>>>>> <mailto:ned.smith@intel.com> <mailto:ned.smith@intel.com>>; Hannes 
>>>>>> Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com 
>>>>>> <mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> 
>>>>>> <mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> 
>>>>>> <mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>>; rats@ietf.org 
>>>>>> <mailto:rats@ietf.org> <mailto:rats@ietf.org> 
>>>>>> <mailto:rats@ietf.org>; Jeremy O'Donoghue 
>>>>>> <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com <mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com> 
>>>>>> <mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com> 
>>>>>> <mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>>; Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr 
>>>>>> <mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr> <mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr> 
>>>>>> <mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr>>; eat@ietf.org <mailto:eat@ietf.org> 
>>>>>> <mailto:eat@ietf.org> <mailto:eat@ietf.org>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [EAT] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Rats] Attestation BoF charter 
>>>>>> updates?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think the TCG has a certain developed notion of identity that is 
>>>>>> different from others.  A way to get sharper about what a 
>>>>>> particular identity means is to describe the space and how the 
>>>>>> identifier selects in the space.  Here’s a few examples:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - The space is physical human beings with fingers. A fingerprint 
>>>>>> scanner select one of these humans. This is typical biometric auth.
>>>>>> - The space is humans that know a password. A password 
>>>>>> authenticator selects the humans that know the password. Typical 
>>>>>> authentication.
>>>>>> - The space is humans as legal entities / citizens with criminal 
>>>>>> records, passports and such. A national ID selects.
>>>>>> - The space is physical manufactured devices from one maker.  A 
>>>>>> serial number narrows it down to one physical device.
>>>>>> - The space is physical devices from one maker. A model number or 
>>>>>> version, narrows down to a subset of these devices.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My understanding of the TCG world is that identities goes beyond 
>>>>>> any of the above because they include things like the version of 
>>>>>> the SW and configuration of the device. The identity is largely a 
>>>>>> hash of an identifier of the physical device, various SW 
>>>>>> components and various configuration states.  The point being that 
>>>>>> a change in any of these is a change in the security 
>>>>>> characteristics of the device and if it was trusted with a 
>>>>>> particular key or particular data in the past, that trust should 
>>>>>> be revoked until re established.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - The space is physical devices from any maker
>>>>>>  + Measurement of the SW (the SW versions)
>>>>>>     + Measurements of some configuration
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Changing any of these change the identity of the device.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know I hardly need to ask, but TCG folks, did I describe this 
>>>>>> correctly?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So that said, many, perhaps most, use cases for EAT do not want 
>>>>>> this kind of device identity. It is not a prerequisite for 
>>>>>> trusting  claims coming from the device. In some cases this level 
>>>>>> of identity seems extremely disruptive as small SW upgrades could 
>>>>>> result in re enrollment of biometrics. We already are annoyed when 
>>>>>> we have to answer security questions when start using a service 
>>>>>> from a new device.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think this WG needs to address both this very tight TCG-style 
>>>>>> device identity and the more heuristic EAT-style 
>>>>>> claims-for-risk-engines. I could see multi-decade evolution where 
>>>>>> risk engine use cases want more and more of the tight TCG-style 
>>>>>> device identity as criminals become more adept at forging 
>>>>>> EAT-style claims. (Today risk engines work off of unsecured 
>>>>>> browser parameters).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Introduction in the charter seems entirely focused on the 
>>>>>> TCG-based identity use case. I think text should be added for 
>>>>>> EAT-style attestation. I will write some after some comments on 
>>>>>> this message.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> LL
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Oct 16, 2018, at 8:24 PM, Henk Birkholz 
>>>>>>> <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de 
>>>>>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> 
>>>>>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> 
>>>>>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To quote Carsten, there is "the usual terminology problem about 
>>>>>>> identity".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Identifying vs. Identity brings back memories about an extensive 
>>>>>>> discussion in SACM that in the end resulted in using Profiles...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Profiles are the "things" that you can aggregate identity claims 
>>>>>>> in (in SACM these claims are "Target Endpoint Characteristics", 
>>>>>>> which are pretty much the same thing as Device Characteristics) - 
>>>>>>> and you use the Profiles to (re-)identify target endpoints.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In the scope of remote attestation procedures, I think that "just 
>>>>>>> not calling" claim sets that are composed (amongst others) of 
>>>>>>> identifying claims "identity documents" might just end up in 
>>>>>>> making up another name for something that is effectively 
>>>>>>> composing identity documents anyways. If calling the same thing 
>>>>>>> something else helps in some way, I am all for it. But I am 
>>>>>>> really not sure.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That said, Ned's elaboration on the relationship of identity and 
>>>>>>> attestation claims and corresponding claim semantics / trust 
>>>>>>> semantics is spot on, I think.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Viele Grüße,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Henk
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 10/16/2018 03:51 PM, Smith, Ned wrote:
>>>>>>>> Agree with Hannes that identity discussion can lead to confusion 
>>>>>>>> as identity is often highly dependent on some sort of context 
>>>>>>>> (domain of interpretation).
>>>>>>>> In order to have productive conversation about attestation and 
>>>>>>>> identity, it may be important to understand that attestation 
>>>>>>>> semantics sets the context for identity.
>>>>>>>> * Attestation attributes have trust semantics (and trust 
>>>>>>>> semantics are interpreted through the eyes of the verifier). 
>>>>>>>> Identity attributes may also have trust semantics (in addition 
>>>>>>>> to identity semantics) hence can be regarded as playing a role 
>>>>>>>> in both identity and attestation. Since RATS should be 
>>>>>>>> interested primarily in trust semantics, it makes sense to 
>>>>>>>> understand, discuss and consider identity in terms of its trust 
>>>>>>>> semantics. Hence identity attributes are only interesting to 
>>>>>>>> RATS if they are useful for evaluating trust semantics.
>>>>>>>> * In a closed ecosystem, the trust characteristics and 
>>>>>>>> properties may be implied because there often exists out-of-band 
>>>>>>>> processes that ensure the characteristics are applied (for 
>>>>>>>> example, if an IT organization sets a policy that all asymmetric 
>>>>>>>> keys are to be hardened using a smartcard, they can apply a 
>>>>>>>> deployment process where the IT professional verifies the 
>>>>>>>> smartcard is used during enrollment.) But in a non-closed 
>>>>>>>> ecosystem, there isn't an assumption that out-of-band processes 
>>>>>>>> exist. Attestation attempts to make explicit what otherwise is 
>>>>>>>> implicit and therefore subject to misinterpretation if the 
>>>>>>>> verifier, relying party and attester are not part of the same 
>>>>>>>> closed ecosystem. Implicit attestation therefore can lead to 
>>>>>>>> semantic confusion if we're not careful. Therefore, the rigor of 
>>>>>>>> treating implicit attestation claims (assertions assumed to 
>>>>>>>> exist but not explicitly named) should nevertheless be defined 
>>>>>>>> explicitly. Then, if there is a need for implicit attestation, 
>>>>>>>> the specifications that describe them can describe them in terms 
>>>>>>>> of an explicit definition.
>>>>>>>> * In the context of asserting trust characteristics, the 
>>>>>>>> verifier needs to know that a set of characteristics applies to 
>>>>>>>> the instance of the endpoint being evaluated (aka the attester). 
>>>>>>>> (Otherwise a MITM could supply characteristics that may be 
>>>>>>>> valid, but don’t apply to the specific instance). Consequently, 
>>>>>>>> it makes sense to consider that *attestation* keys are needed to 
>>>>>>>> authenticate the endpoint being evaluated. This doesn't imply an 
>>>>>>>> identity key couldn't double as an attestation key. But if it 
>>>>>>>> does, we care about its relevance to the attester endpoint.
>>>>>>>> -Ned
>>>>>>>> ﻿On 10/15/18, 6:49 PM, "Hannes Tschofenig" 
>>>>>>>> <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com <mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> 
>>>>>>>> <mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> 
>>>>>>>> <mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>    Here are my 5 cents on the term 'identity'.
>>>>>>>>         I have been working on identity management for many 
>>>>>>>> years (partially because of my OAuth co-chair role) and I have 
>>>>>>>> noticed that the use of the term "identity" tends to confuse 
>>>>>>>> more than it helps (even more so when the term is applied to 
>>>>>>>> devices and software rather than humans).
>>>>>>>>         I believe we could get away with describing what we want 
>>>>>>>> without ever using the term.
>>>>>>>>         In this context I would argue that we are about 
>>>>>>>> identifying different components, such as hardware and software.
>>>>>>>>         Ciao
>>>>>>>>    Hannes
>>>>>>>>         -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>    From: EAT <eat-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org> 
>>>>>>>> <mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org> <mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org>> On 
>>>>>>>> Behalf Of Smith, Ned
>>>>>>>>    Sent: Monday, October 15, 2018 9:00 AM
>>>>>>>>    To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de 
>>>>>>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> 
>>>>>>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> 
>>>>>>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>; rats@ietf.org 
>>>>>>>> <mailto:rats@ietf.org> <mailto:rats@ietf.org> 
>>>>>>>> <mailto:rats@ietf.org>; Jeremy O'Donoghue 
>>>>>>>> <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com <mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com> 
>>>>>>>> <mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com> 
>>>>>>>> <mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>>; Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr 
>>>>>>>> <mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr> <mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr> 
>>>>>>>> <mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr>>
>>>>>>>>    Cc: eat@ietf.org <mailto:eat@ietf.org> <mailto:eat@ietf.org> 
>>>>>>>> <mailto:eat@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>    Subject: Re: [EAT] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Rats] Attestation BoF 
>>>>>>>> charter updates?
>>>>>>>>         I agree with Henk's observation that there is 
>>>>>>>> opportunity to find common ground on identity as identity can be 
>>>>>>>> a collection of attributes, that if signed, becomes a set of 
>>>>>>>> verifiable claims (about identity attributes). Attestation has a 
>>>>>>>> similar structure in that it consists of a set of attributes, 
>>>>>>>> that if signed becomes a set of verifiable claims. The main 
>>>>>>>> difference between identity and attestation attributes is 
>>>>>>>> whether the attribute semantically relate to trust (vs. 
>>>>>>>> identity). For example, claims of security certification 
>>>>>>>> compliance resonates as attestation.
>>>>>>>>         It may be possible to combine a set of attestation 
>>>>>>>> attributes in such a way that the combination uniquely 
>>>>>>>> identifies an entity. But that doesn't make it an identity 
>>>>>>>> system per se and shouldn't cause a conflict in charter goals 
>>>>>>>> with respect to other identity focused efforts in IETF.
>>>>>>>>         Also, inclusion of attributes that don't have semantics 
>>>>>>>> that reasonably relate to trust should not be of interest to a 
>>>>>>>> working group focused on attestation.
>>>>>>>>         -Ned
>>>>>>>>         On 10/15/18, 3:53 PM, "EAT on behalf of Henk Birkholz" 
>>>>>>>> <eat-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org> 
>>>>>>>> <mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org> <mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org> on 
>>>>>>>> behalf of henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de 
>>>>>>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> 
>>>>>>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> 
>>>>>>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>             Hi Jeremy & Denis,
>>>>>>>>             all these points of view have merit, I think.
>>>>>>>>             Please have a look at these quotes:
>>>>>>>>> knowing the provenance of the device
>>>>>>>>> having the entity creator/manufacturer provide a set of claims 
>>>>>>>>> which can be verified
>>>>>>>>> to know the characteristics of a device by issuing to the 
>>>>>>>>> device a public key certificate which will only be issued to 
>>>>>>>>> the device if it fulfills an expected set of functionalities.
>>>>>>>>             To me, these descriptions seem to have different 
>>>>>>>> intents, scope or
>>>>>>>>        audience and require most certainly different work-flows, but
>>>>>>>>        semantically and in consequence representation-wise they 
>>>>>>>> also seem quite
>>>>>>>>        related.
>>>>>>>>             If you think of an identity document as a set of 
>>>>>>>> claims (potentially
>>>>>>>>        including a public key), that is signed and that can 
>>>>>>>> match one or more
>>>>>>>>        things, maybe all three types highlighted above are 
>>>>>>>> actually covered by
>>>>>>>>        the same identity document concept?
>>>>>>>>             With respect to identity documents, I think it is 
>>>>>>>> safe so say that we
>>>>>>>>        can find common ground here rather easily. That said, the 
>>>>>>>> way how these
>>>>>>>>        identity documents come into existence, when and how they 
>>>>>>>> are deployed
>>>>>>>>        on the thing or associated with multiple things is 
>>>>>>>> another question. We
>>>>>>>>        most certainly do not want to end up with a "signing 
>>>>>>>> fool" that does not
>>>>>>>>        add value to the level of confidence (I am quoting Ned 
>>>>>>>> Smith here).
>>>>>>>>             This has to be fleshed out explicitly for each 
>>>>>>>> scenario and the parts
>>>>>>>>        that are reused in every scenario should get special 
>>>>>>>> attention in the
>>>>>>>>        upcoming RATS architecture draft.
>>>>>>>>             Identifying claims aggregated in an identity 
>>>>>>>> document most certainly can
>>>>>>>>        include device characteristics, public key(s), or claims 
>>>>>>>> about the
>>>>>>>>        intended functions and capabilities of the thing. Claims 
>>>>>>>> can even
>>>>>>>>        originate from Claimants that are not the thing itself, 
>>>>>>>> but external
>>>>>>>>        entities providing an assertion (e.g. these things are 
>>>>>>>> CC-certified).
>>>>>>>>             All different composites of identifying claims have 
>>>>>>>> a specific shared
>>>>>>>>        intend in this context though, I think: expressing 
>>>>>>>> Attestation
>>>>>>>>        Provenance (again - one for one or more things of the 
>>>>>>>> same kind). And
>>>>>>>>        all of them originate from Claimants and therefore use a 
>>>>>>>> root of trust
>>>>>>>>        of measurement, I think.
>>>>>>>>             That said, establishing trustworthy knowledge about 
>>>>>>>> attestation
>>>>>>>>        provenance is only the first step and provides the 
>>>>>>>> foundation for more
>>>>>>>>        complex attestation procedures. In any case, this seem to 
>>>>>>>> be required by
>>>>>>>>        every scenario that was highlighted so far and therefore 
>>>>>>>> will most
>>>>>>>>        certainly be covered in a deliverable.
>>>>>>>>             IHTH,
>>>>>>>>             Henk
>>>>>>>>                  On 10/15/2018 12:22 PM, Jeremy O'Donoghue wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 12 Oct 2018, at 14:33, Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr 
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr> <mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr> 
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr>
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> The "Problem Statement" continues as follows:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> (2) Today, there is no common, standard way for Relying Parties to
>>>>>>>>>> know the provenance and characteristics of a device (e.g., an 
>>>>>>>>>> end-user
>>>>>>>>>> device,
>>>>>>>>>> platform or endpoint, servers, IoT devices, device subsystems and
>>>>>>>>>> sub-modules) that may be requesting services.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Knowing the provenance of the device is not always necessary. 
>>>>>>>>>> What is
>>>>>>>>>> important is to know that a specific set of functions is 
>>>>>>>>>> (securely)
>>>>>>>>>> supported by the device.
>>>>>>>>>> There already exists a common way to know the characteristics of a
>>>>>>>>>> device by issuing to the device a public key certificate which 
>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>> only be issued to the device
>>>>>>>>>> if it fulfills an expected set of functionalities. In such a 
>>>>>>>>>> case a
>>>>>>>>>> syntax for a trusted claim sets**is not needed.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This is indeed a possible way to address the problem, but 
>>>>>>>>> suffers from
>>>>>>>>> challenges which come down to:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> - Who issues such certificates. An option is that there is some 
>>>>>>>>> form of
>>>>>>>>> security certification behind this issuance otherwise it is of very
>>>>>>>>> limited value.
>>>>>>>>> - In order to capture the wide variety of different devices (I 
>>>>>>>>> prefer
>>>>>>>>> "entity" here as it is more general than "device"), many 
>>>>>>>>> different forms
>>>>>>>>> of such certificates would be required. This ends up being much 
>>>>>>>>> the same
>>>>>>>>> thing as a set of claims.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Given the multiplicity of entities for which attestation might be
>>>>>>>>> useful, it seems to me that having the entity creator/manufacturer
>>>>>>>>> provide a set of claims which can be verified is more flexible than
>>>>>>>>> requiring a certificate. It seems likely to me that where a formal
>>>>>>>>> security certification is needed there will be a certificate 
>>>>>>>>> issued by
>>>>>>>>> the Certifying Body as one of the claims about an entity, but I can
>>>>>>>>> think of many cases (supply chain management, to take just one 
>>>>>>>>> example)
>>>>>>>>> where provenance is by far the most useful information.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm not in favour of changes to the charter in this direction.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The simplest cases should also be part of the framework.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Note: I personally appreciate that privacy is an aspect that
>>>>>>>>>> will/should be taken into consideration.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Denis
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> As with the earlier draft, there are many references to 
>>>>>>>>>>> verify and
>>>>>>>>>>> verifier in the lead up to the deliverable but no 
>>>>>>>>>>> deliverables describing
>>>>>>>>>>> verification rules. I'd like to see rules in one of these 
>>>>>>>>>>> documents and
>>>>>>>>>>> think it worth citing in the deliverables. Are bindings to 
>>>>>>>>>>> certificate
>>>>>>>>>>> management protocols out of scope?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/11/18, 9:49 AM, "RATS on behalf of Henk Birkholz"
>>>>>>>>>>> <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org> 
>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org> <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org> 
>>>>>>>>>>> on behalf of henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de 
>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> 
>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> 
>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>  wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> sorry for the delay. Please find an updated charter proposal 
>>>>>>>>>>>> here:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_ietf-2Drats_charter_blob_RC2_ietf-2Drats-2Dcharter.md&d=DwIFaQ&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=sebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&m=p5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&s=rPzmwhcwy8eob4eMiwWzDg5DY-mcC5HYgQqhUGCZ2RI&e=
>>>>>>>>>>>> The BoF proponents tried to merge all comments and proposals on
>>>>>>>>>>>> keystores, existing solutions, provenance & device 
>>>>>>>>>>>> characteristics, etc
>>>>>>>>>>>> that were raised on the list - and align them in homogeneous 
>>>>>>>>>>>> fashion.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> This draft is intended to focus the discussion and improve 
>>>>>>>>>>>> the wording.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Viele Grüße,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Henk
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/06/2018 08:23 AM, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Henk,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bangkok IETF is getting close, will you be able to update 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the charter
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the attestation BoF to properly include EAT?  I sent 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> you some text
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that just needs to be pasted along with some comments. It 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn’t look
>>>>>>>>>>>>> like there’s been any updates.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> LL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> RATS mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org> <mailto:RATS@ietf.org> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_rats&d=DwIFaQ&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=sebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&m=p5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&s=xThsQTXgadltVkHTYpOWknadi7puxZt8O6XOIUm_bzo&e=
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> EAT mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> EAT@ietf.org <mailto:EAT@ietf.org> <mailto:EAT@ietf.org> 
>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:EAT@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_eat&d=DwIFaQ&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=sebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&m=p5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&s=N7kKkDdCvl_MNmB3Guyg9HC-kQnMrX1cP5w44SbDsAw&e=
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> EAT mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> EAT@ietf.org <mailto:EAT@ietf.org> <mailto:EAT@ietf.org> 
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:EAT@ietf.org> <mailto:EAT@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_eat&d=DwIFaQ&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=sebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&m=p5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&s=N7kKkDdCvl_MNmB3Guyg9HC-kQnMrX1cP5w44SbDsAw&e=
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> EAT mailing list
>>>>>>>>> EAT@ietf.org <mailto:EAT@ietf.org> <mailto:EAT@ietf.org> 
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:EAT@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_eat&d=DwIFaQ&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=sebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&m=p5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&s=N7kKkDdCvl_MNmB3Guyg9HC-kQnMrX1cP5w44SbDsAw&e=
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>             _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>        EAT mailing list
>>>>>>>> EAT@ietf.org <mailto:EAT@ietf.org> <mailto:EAT@ietf.org> 
>>>>>>>> <mailto:EAT@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_eat&d=DwIFaQ&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=sebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&m=p5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&s=N7kKkDdCvl_MNmB3Guyg9HC-kQnMrX1cP5w44SbDsAw&e=
>>>>>>>>              _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>    EAT mailing list
>>>>>>>> EAT@ietf.org <mailto:EAT@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_eat&d=DwIFaQ&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=sebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&m=p5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&s=N7kKkDdCvl_MNmB3Guyg9HC-kQnMrX1cP5w44SbDsAw&e=
>>>>>>>>    IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any 
>>>>>>>> attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you 
>>>>>>>> are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender 
>>>>>>>> immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other 
>>>>>>>> person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information 
>>>>>>>> in any medium. Thank you.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> EAT mailing list
>>>>>>> EAT@ietf.org <mailto:EAT@ietf.org> <mailto:EAT@ietf.org> 
>>>>>>> <mailto:EAT@ietf.org>
>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_eat&d=DwIFaQ&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=sebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&m=p5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&s=N7kKkDdCvl_MNmB3Guyg9HC-kQnMrX1cP5w44SbDsAw&e=
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> EAT mailing list
>>>>>> EAT@ietf.org <mailto:EAT@ietf.org> <mailto:EAT@ietf.org> 
>>>>>> <mailto:EAT@ietf.org>
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> EAT mailing list
>>>> EAT@ietf.org <mailto:EAT@ietf.org> <mailto:EAT@ietf.org>
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> EAT mailing list
>> EAT@ietf.org <mailto:EAT@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat
> 


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From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
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Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2018 20:51:52 +0530
In-Reply-To: <e14b9926-03df-bc6f-45be-1707e156cf92@sit.fraunhofer.de>
Cc: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net>, Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>, Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr>
To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
References: <5D773C02-5083-4B10-A705-782E28FD8ADB@island-resort.com> <f84515dd-2e1a-7e66-7c23-b16f8f425d2a@sit.fraunhofer.de> <D7E5069D.C2E65%carl@redhoundsoftware.com> <c72a3b6c-88f2-d452-96be-947a4be1d9c8@free.fr> <73EF502E-B68C-4106-8311-4897B4F2DF8C@qti.qualcomm.com> <b6c9ff4a-cc35-8175-3294-4e6ec366409f@sit.fraunhofer.de> <615BB1D3-29E3-468B-B988-84852F47742C@intel.com> <VI1PR0801MB211230882A5B0D594D66DCFDFAFD0@VI1PR0801MB2112.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com> <71A01CDA-380F-4A57-B601-02F9A2699471@intel.com> <6f28e6a4-1930-84b2-1399-8aed75e3a6b4@sit.fraunhofer.de> <FB52EAA1-21F9-4792-B6A2-B58BBFBB53D6@island-resort.com> <BN7PR05MB4097DAA623B0F77573982910BAFF0@BN7PR05MB4097.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <04976C31-F18C-4F99-847D-110641DCDE80@island-resort.com> <9c73f9b7-9129-c273-254e-465f92ab3650@sit.fraunhofer.de> <09818298-9FE1-430A-8045-A9A7E76ED64C@island-resort.com> <aaf49ef2-d161-aa9d-7b8a-fd852c5806c4@sit.fraunhofer.de> <35F3F15E-5B24-4CBA-921E-FAC50A1F3122@island-resort.com> <e14b9926-03df-bc6f-45be-1707e156cf92@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT] Device Identity (was Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Attestation BoF charter updates?)
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> On Oct 20, 2018, at 8:26 PM, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
>=20
> Hello Laurence,
>=20
>  And I am perplexed how you think I was implying that EAT or CoID are =
insecure. How did I make the impression to have suggested that?

You have characterized EAT as only proof-of-possesion. It is not.

>=20
> Wrt the "verification keys" I am not so sure, what the diagram means =
by that. With an asymmetric key-pair these would probably be public keys =
to check the signature by (I assume)?

It is an open-ended range of things:
An ECDAA interaction with service (Maybe like Intel=E2=80=99s)
A verification request of an Android Attestation from a Google Service
An IEEE-802.1AR CA and Sub-CAs (mostly standard X.509)
A public key fetch based on any reasonable / useful key ID (e.g. Subject =
Key ID)
A submission of the EAT token signed by a symmetric key to a service =
that verifies it (and rather carefully protects the private verification =
keys with high quality HSMs)
A redirect through a privacy CA
Some custom manufacturer defined scheme

I strongly believe this flexibility is necessary for real deployments =
especially for the high investment already made by platform and chip =
vendors.

There is an assumption that the device manufacturer will only put =
attestation keys in devices that are configured correctly. Typically the =
attestation key will only be usable to sign attestation if the device =
booted code that was verified, debug was turned off and such. (I know =
TCG does this in a more elaborate thorough way, and that is good and =
well and can be put to use with EAT for appropriate use cases).=20

LL



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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
Oct 20, 2018, at 8:26 PM, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">Hello =
Laurence,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;And I am perplexed how you =
think I was implying that EAT or CoID are insecure. How did I make the =
impression to have suggested that?</div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>You have characterized EAT as <i class=3D"">only</i>=
 proof-of-possesion. It is not.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><blockquote=
 type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Wrt the "verification keys" I am not so sure, what the =
diagram means by that. With an asymmetric key-pair these would probably =
be public keys to check the signature by (I assume)?<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>It is =
an open-ended range of things:</div><div><ul class=3D"MailOutline"><li =
class=3D"">An ECDAA interaction with service (Maybe like =
Intel=E2=80=99s)</li><li class=3D"">A verification request of an Android =
Attestation from a Google Service</li><li class=3D"">An IEEE-802.1AR CA =
and Sub-CAs (mostly standard X.509)</li><li class=3D"">A public key =
fetch based on any reasonable / useful key ID (e.g. Subject Key =
ID)</li><li class=3D"">A submission of the EAT token signed by a =
symmetric key to a service that verifies it (and rather carefully =
protects the private verification keys with high quality HSMs)</li><li =
class=3D"">A redirect through a privacy CA</li><li class=3D"">Some =
custom manufacturer defined scheme</li></ul><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I strongly believe this flexibility is =
necessary for real deployments especially for the high investment =
already made by platform and chip vendors.</div></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>There is an assumption that the device =
manufacturer will only put attestation keys in devices that are =
configured correctly. Typically the attestation key will only be usable =
to sign attestation if the device booted code that was verified, debug =
was turned off and such. (I know TCG does this in a more elaborate =
thorough way, and that is good and well and can be put to use with EAT =
for appropriate use cases).&nbsp;</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>LL</div><div><br class=3D""></div></div><br =
class=3D""></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_EEBF7BC4-07E5-409C-9C1B-8F357E0BA068--


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References: <5D773C02-5083-4B10-A705-782E28FD8ADB@island-resort.com> <73EF502E-B68C-4106-8311-4897B4F2DF8C@qti.qualcomm.com> <b6c9ff4a-cc35-8175-3294-4e6ec366409f@sit.fraunhofer.de> <615BB1D3-29E3-468B-B988-84852F47742C@intel.com> <VI1PR0801MB211230882A5B0D594D66DCFDFAFD0@VI1PR0801MB2112.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com> <71A01CDA-380F-4A57-B601-02F9A2699471@intel.com> <6f28e6a4-1930-84b2-1399-8aed75e3a6b4@sit.fraunhofer.de> <FB52EAA1-21F9-4792-B6A2-B58BBFBB53D6@island-resort.com> <BN7PR05MB4097DAA623B0F77573982910BAFF0@BN7PR05MB4097.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <04976C31-F18C-4F99-847D-110641DCDE80@island-resort.com> <9c73f9b7-9129-c273-254e-465f92ab3650@sit.fraunhofer.de> <09818298-9FE1-430A-8045-A9A7E76ED64C@island-resort.com> <aaf49ef2-d161-aa9d-7b8a-fd852c5806c4@sit.fraunhofer.de> <35F3F15E-5B24-4CBA-921E-FAC50A1F3122@island-resort.com> <e14b9926-03df-bc6f-45be-1707e156cf92@sit.fraunhofer.de> <59606D5D-F49B-4552-B479-1A7D5BEA0F93@island-resort.com>
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To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net>, Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, "Jeremy O'Donoghue" <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>, Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr>
From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT] Device Identity (was Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Attestation BoF charter updates?)
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Hello Laurence,

what I understood now, I think, is that the processes that will eventually=
 make use of EATs - "in the bigger picture" - are intended to be based on m=
ore than proof-of-possession=2E
The EAT that is the signed claim set is relying on the "assumption that th=
e device manufacturer will only put attestation keys in devices that are co=
nfigured correctly"=2E

And that is exactly what I meant=2E The key material deployed on the thing=
 has meaning: if it is there, you trust the assumption that the thing is co=
nfigured correctly=2E

Do we agree on this? :-)

The reoccurring reference to TCG seems to exclude other more thorough appr=
oaches on how to conduct remote integrity verification a bit, I think=2E I =
am carefully highlighting this, because the reasoning behind an IETF WG is =
the demand for network protocols that are able to consolidate the different=
 "inbox-api" and "out-of-band" concepts used in various domains=2E

Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,

Henk

On October 20, 2018 4:21:52 PM GMT+01:00, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-r=
esort=2Ecom> wrote:
>
>> On Oct 20, 2018, at 8:26 PM, Henk Birkholz
><henk=2Ebirkholz@sit=2Efraunhofer=2Ede> wrote:
>>=20
>> Hello Laurence,
>>=20
>>  And I am perplexed how you think I was implying that EAT or CoID are
>insecure=2E How did I make the impression to have suggested that?
>
>You have characterized EAT as only proof-of-possesion=2E It is not=2E
>
>>=20
>> Wrt the "verification keys" I am not so sure, what the diagram means
>by that=2E With an asymmetric key-pair these would probably be public
>keys to check the signature by (I assume)?
>
>It is an open-ended range of things:
>An ECDAA interaction with service (Maybe like Intel=E2=80=99s)
>A verification request of an Android Attestation from a Google Service
>An IEEE-802=2E1AR CA and Sub-CAs (mostly standard X=2E509)
>A public key fetch based on any reasonable / useful key ID (e=2Eg=2E
>Subject Key ID)
>A submission of the EAT token signed by a symmetric key to a service
>that verifies it (and rather carefully protects the private
>verification keys with high quality HSMs)
>A redirect through a privacy CA
>Some custom manufacturer defined scheme
>
>I strongly believe this flexibility is necessary for real deployments
>especially for the high investment already made by platform and chip
>vendors=2E
>
>There is an assumption that the device manufacturer will only put
>attestation keys in devices that are configured correctly=2E Typically
>the attestation key will only be usable to sign attestation if the
>device booted code that was verified, debug was turned off and such=2E (I
>know TCG does this in a more elaborate thorough way, and that is good
>and well and can be put to use with EAT for appropriate use cases)=2E=20
>
>LL

--=20
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail=2E Please excuse my brevity=2E
------TRP3JB0JH0DXO4SLJG52JJ8RZUDE77
Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" /=
></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; lin=
e-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Hello Laurence,<br>
<br>
what I understood now, I think, is that the processes that will eventually=
 make use of EATs - &quot;in the bigger picture&quot; - are intended to be =
based on more than proof-of-possession=2E<br>
The EAT that is the signed claim set is relying on the &quot;assumption th=
at the device manufacturer will only put attestation keys in devices that a=
re configured correctly&quot;=2E<br>
<br>
And that is exactly what I meant=2E The key material deployed on the thing=
 has meaning: if it is there, you trust the assumption that the thing is co=
nfigured correctly=2E<br>
<br>
Do we agree on this? :-)<br>
<br>
The reoccurring reference to TCG seems to exclude other more thorough appr=
oaches on how to conduct remote integrity verification a bit, I think=2E I =
am carefully highlighting this, because the reasoning behind an IETF WG is =
the demand for network protocols that are able to consolidate the different=
 &quot;inbox-api&quot; and &quot;out-of-band&quot; concepts used in various=
 domains=2E<br>
<br>
Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,<br>
<br>
Henk<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On October 20, 2018 4:21:52 PM GMT+=
01:00, Laurence Lundblade &lt;lgl@island-resort=2Ecom&gt; wrote:<blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0=2E8ex; border-left: 1=
px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<br class=3D"" /><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""=
>On Oct 20, 2018, at 8:26 PM, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk=2Ebi=
rkholz@sit=2Efraunhofer=2Ede" class=3D"">henk=2Ebirkholz@sit=2Efraunhofer=
=2Ede</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline" /><div cl=
ass=3D""><div class=3D"">Hello Laurence,<br class=3D"" /><br class=3D"" />&=
nbsp;And I am perplexed how you think I was implying that EAT or CoID are i=
nsecure=2E How did I make the impression to have suggested that?</div></div=
></blockquote><div><br class=3D"" /></div><div>You have characterized EAT a=
s <i class=3D"">only</i> proof-of-possesion=2E It is not=2E</div><div><br c=
lass=3D"" /></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><br class=3D"" />Wrt the &quot;verification keys&quot; I am not=
 so sure, what the diagram means by that=2E With an asymmetric key-pair the=
se would probably be public keys to check the signature by (I assume)?<br c=
lass=3D"" /></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D"" /></div><div>It is=
 an open-ended range of things:</div><div><ul class=3D"MailOutline"><li cla=
ss=3D"">An ECDAA interaction with service (Maybe like Intel&rsquo;s)</li><l=
i class=3D"">A verification request of an Android Attestation from a Google=
 Service</li><li class=3D"">An IEEE-802=2E1AR CA and Sub-CAs (mostly standa=
rd X=2E509)</li><li class=3D"">A public key fetch based on any reasonable /=
 useful key ID (e=2Eg=2E Subject Key ID)</li><li class=3D"">A submission of=
 the EAT token signed by a symmetric key to a service that verifies it (and=
 rather carefully protects the private verification keys with high quality =
HSMs)</li><li class=3D"">A redirect through a privacy CA</li><li class=3D""=
>Some custom manufacturer defined scheme</li></ul><div class=3D""><br class=
=3D"" /></div><div class=3D"">I strongly believe this flexibility is necess=
ary for real deployments especially for the high investment already made by=
 platform and chip vendors=2E</div></div><div><br class=3D"" /></div><div>T=
here is an assumption that the device manufacturer will only put attestatio=
n keys in devices that are configured correctly=2E Typically the attestatio=
n key will only be usable to sign attestation if the device booted code tha=
t was verified, debug was turned off and such=2E (I know TCG does this in a=
 more elaborate thorough way, and that is good and well and can be put to u=
se with EAT for appropriate use cases)=2E&nbsp;</div><div><br class=3D"" />=
</div><div>LL</div><div><br class=3D"" /></div></div><br class=3D"" /></blo=
ckquote></div><br>
-- <br>
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail=2E Please excuse my brevity=2E</=
body></html>
------TRP3JB0JH0DXO4SLJG52JJ8RZUDE77--


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From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
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In-Reply-To: <695FBEC5-4A2F-4E0B-B4A8-77A2DA18DD5B@sit.fraunhofer.de>
Cc: Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>,  Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr>, Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
References: <5D773C02-5083-4B10-A705-782E28FD8ADB@island-resort.com> <73EF502E-B68C-4106-8311-4897B4F2DF8C@qti.qualcomm.com> <b6c9ff4a-cc35-8175-3294-4e6ec366409f@sit.fraunhofer.de> <615BB1D3-29E3-468B-B988-84852F47742C@intel.com> <VI1PR0801MB211230882A5B0D594D66DCFDFAFD0@VI1PR0801MB2112.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com> <71A01CDA-380F-4A57-B601-02F9A2699471@intel.com> <6f28e6a4-1930-84b2-1399-8aed75e3a6b4@sit.fraunhofer.de> <FB52EAA1-21F9-4792-B6A2-B58BBFBB53D6@island-resort.com> <BN7PR05MB4097DAA623B0F77573982910BAFF0@BN7PR05MB4097.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <04976C31-F18C-4F99-847D-110641DCDE80@island-resort.com> <9c73f9b7-9129-c273-254e-465f92ab3650@sit.fraunhofer.de> <09818298-9FE1-430A-8045-A9A7E76ED64C@island-resort.com> <aaf49ef2-d161-aa9d-7b8a-fd852c5806c4@sit.fraunhofer.de> <35F3F15E-5B24-4CBA-921E-FAC50A1F3122@island-resort.com> <e14b9926-03df-bc6f-45be-1707e156cf92@sit.fraunhofer.de> <59606D5D-F49B-4552-B479-1A7D5BEA0F93@island-resort.com> <695FBEC5-4A2F-4E0B-B4A8-77A2DA18DD5B@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT] Device Identity (was Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Attestation BoF charter updates?)
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> On Oct 20, 2018, at 9:13 PM, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
>=20
> Hello Laurence,
>=20
> what I understood now, I think, is that the processes that will =
eventually make use of EATs - "in the bigger picture" - are intended to =
be based on more than proof-of-possession.
> The EAT that is the signed claim set is relying on the "assumption =
that the device manufacturer will only put attestation keys in devices =
that are configured correctly".
>=20
> And that is exactly what I meant. The key material deployed on the =
thing has meaning: if it is there, you trust the assumption that the =
thing is configured correctly.

Seems to me that there is always some implied trust in the behavior of =
some part of the device you put the key in. It might be a tiny bit of =
HW, but it is something. No matter how many layers of measurement and =
roots-of-trust there are, the bottom that hold the key has to be trusted =
to have some behavior before you put the key in during manufacture.

>=20
> Do we agree on this? :-)
>=20

Well probably, but we haven=E2=80=99t spend enough time together yet to =
know for sure. :-)


> The reoccurring reference to TCG seems to exclude other more thorough =
approaches on how to conduct remote integrity verification a bit, I =
think. I am carefully highlighting this, because the reasoning behind an =
IETF WG is the demand for network protocols that are able to consolidate =
the different "inbox-api" and "out-of-band" concepts used in various =
domains.

I added a few lines below.=20

Not sure what an inbox-api and such are yet...

LL


>=20
> Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>=20
> Henk
>=20
> On October 20, 2018 4:21:52 PM GMT+01:00, Laurence Lundblade =
<lgl@island-resort.com> wrote:
>=20
>> On Oct 20, 2018, at 8:26 PM, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
>>=20
>> Hello Laurence,
>>=20
>>  And I am perplexed how you think I was implying that EAT or CoID are =
insecure. How did I make the impression to have suggested that?
>=20
> You have characterized EAT as only proof-of-possesion. It is not.
>=20
>>=20
>> Wrt the "verification keys" I am not so sure, what the diagram means =
by that. With an asymmetric key-pair these would probably be public keys =
to check the signature by (I assume)?
>=20
> It is an open-ended range of things:
> An ECDAA interaction with service (Maybe like Intel=E2=80=99s)
> A verification request of an Android Attestation from a Google Service
> An IEEE-802.1AR CA and Sub-CAs (mostly standard X.509)
> A public key fetch based on any reasonable / useful key ID (e.g. =
Subject Key ID)
> A submission of the EAT token signed by a symmetric key to a service =
that verifies it (and rather carefully protects the private verification =
keys with high quality HSMs)
> A redirect through a privacy CA
> Some custom manufacturer defined scheme

* A RATS Procedure based on TCG stuff
* A RATS Procedure not using TCG stuff



>=20
> I strongly believe this flexibility is necessary for real deployments =
especially for the high investment already made by platform and chip =
vendors.
>=20
> There is an assumption that the device manufacturer will only put =
attestation keys in devices that are configured correctly. Typically the =
attestation key will only be usable to sign attestation if the device =
booted code that was verified, debug was turned off and such. (I know =
TCG does this in a more elaborate thorough way, and that is good and =
well and can be put to use with EAT for appropriate use cases).=20
>=20
> LL
>=20
>=20
>=20
> --=20
> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
> _______________________________________________
> EAT mailing list
> EAT@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat


--Apple-Mail=_57FB3170-01ED-4DAD-9AD5-284066FCDEA4
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
Oct 20, 2018, at 9:13 PM, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D"">
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Hello Laurence,<br =
class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
what I understood now, I think, is that the processes that will =
eventually make use of EATs - "in the bigger picture" - are intended to =
be based on more than proof-of-possession.<br class=3D"">
The EAT that is the signed claim set is relying on the "assumption that =
the device manufacturer will only put attestation keys in devices that =
are configured correctly".<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
And that is exactly what I meant. The key material deployed on the thing =
has meaning: if it is there, you trust the assumption that the thing is =
configured correctly.<br class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Seems to me that there is always some implied =
trust in the behavior of some part of the device you put the key in. It =
might be a tiny bit of HW, but it is something. No matter how many =
layers of measurement and roots-of-trust there are, the bottom that hold =
the key has to be trusted to have some behavior before you put the key =
in during manufacture.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Do we agree on this? :-)<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Well probably, but we haven=E2=80=99t spend enough =
time together yet to know for sure. :-)</div><div><br class=3D""></div><br=
 class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D"">
The reoccurring reference to TCG seems to exclude other more thorough =
approaches on how to conduct remote integrity verification a bit, I =
think. I am carefully highlighting this, because the reasoning behind an =
IETF WG is the demand for network protocols that are able to consolidate =
the different "inbox-api" and "out-of-band" concepts used in various =
domains.<br class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>I added a<font color=3D"#669c35" class=3D""> few =
lines</font><font color=3D"#0056d6" class=3D""> =
</font>below.&nbsp;</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Not sure what an =
inbox-api and such are yet...</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>LL</div><div><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Henk<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On October =
20, 2018 4:21:52 PM GMT+01:00, Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" =
class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt; wrote:<blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: =
1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<br class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Oct 20, 2018, at 8:26 PM, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">Hello =
Laurence,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;And I am perplexed how you =
think I was implying that EAT or CoID are insecure. How did I make the =
impression to have suggested that?</div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">You have characterized =
EAT as <i class=3D"">only</i> proof-of-possesion. It is not.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D"">Wrt the "verification keys" I =
am not so sure, what the diagram means by that. With an asymmetric =
key-pair these would probably be public keys to check the signature by =
(I assume)?<br class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">It is an open-ended range of =
things:</div><div class=3D""><ul class=3D"MailOutline"><li class=3D"">An =
ECDAA interaction with service (Maybe like Intel=E2=80=99s)</li><li =
class=3D"">A verification request of an Android Attestation from a =
Google Service</li><li class=3D"">An IEEE-802.1AR CA and Sub-CAs (mostly =
standard X.509)</li><li class=3D"">A public key fetch based on any =
reasonable / useful key ID (e.g. Subject Key ID)</li><li class=3D"">A =
submission of the EAT token signed by a symmetric key to a service that =
verifies it (and rather carefully protects the private verification keys =
with high quality HSMs)</li><li class=3D"">A redirect through a privacy =
CA</li><li class=3D"">Some custom manufacturer defined =
scheme</li></ul></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote><d=
iv><br class=3D""></div><font color=3D"#4f7a28" class=3D"">* A RATS =
Procedure based on TCG stuff</font></div><div><font color=3D"#4f7a28" =
class=3D"">* A RATS Procedure not using TCG stuff</font><br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: =
1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I =
strongly believe this flexibility is necessary for real deployments =
especially for the high investment already made by platform and chip =
vendors.</div></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">There is an assumption that the device manufacturer will only =
put attestation keys in devices that are configured correctly. Typically =
the attestation key will only be usable to sign attestation if the =
device booted code that was verified, debug was turned off and such. (I =
know TCG does this in a more elaborate thorough way, and that is good =
and well and can be put to use with EAT for appropriate use =
cases).&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><br =
class=3D""></blockquote></div><br class=3D"">
-- <br class=3D"">
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my =
brevity.</div>_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">EAT mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:EAT@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">EAT@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_57FB3170-01ED-4DAD-9AD5-284066FCDEA4--


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From: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
CC: "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [EAT] Preliminary RATS BoF Agenda
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT] Preliminary RATS BoF Agenda
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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
CC: "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [EAT] Preliminary RATS BoF Agenda
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Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 13:19:35 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT] Preliminary RATS BoF Agenda
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Cc: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>
To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
References: <d9f63399-5fa1-e220-22f3-3e85596a589f@sit.fraunhofer.de> <AM5PR0801MB209735CCC5CF80CCE96E9670FAFA0@AM5PR0801MB2097.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com> <45f29705a33140c58c03ddadf65f6a7f@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT] Preliminary RATS BoF Agenda
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> On Oct 21, 2018, at 6:49 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) <evoit@cisco.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> To me the answer is yes.  For over a year Cisco has offered a =
controller based Integrity Verification application.  This application =
does remote attestation for routers.  See:
> =
https://www.cisco.com/c/dam/en/us/td/docs/cloud-systems-management/applica=
tion-policy-infrastructure-controller-enterprise-module/1-5-x/integrity_ve=
rification/user-guide/Cisco_Integrity_Verification_Application_APIC-EM_Use=
r_Guide_1_5_0_x.pdf =
<https://www.cisco.com/c/dam/en/us/td/docs/cloud-systems-management/applic=
ation-policy-infrastructure-controller-enterprise-module/1-5-x/integrity_v=
erification/user-guide/Cisco_Integrity_Verification_Application_APIC-EM_Us=
er_Guide_1_5_0_x.pdf>

Eric, thanks for sharing that. I read it carefully and that helps me =
understand quite a lot in a more concrete way. Even looked at the KGV =
tar ball. In a lot of ways this isn=E2=80=99t too different some EAT =
uses on mobile phones where the idea is to use TrustZone, virtualization =
and other HW architectures to measure Android.

I=E2=80=99m guessing a lot of this is implemented with TPMs and TCG =
ideas.  Is that right? If you can share implementation HW specifics, =
then I won=E2=80=99t have to guess and have a lower probability of =
saying dumb things, but understand if that is highly proprietary.=20

LL


--Apple-Mail=_72C371AE-A79F-4FE9-9B0D-C00AF39BB564
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
Oct 21, 2018, at 6:49 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:evoit@cisco.com" class=3D"">evoit@cisco.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">To me the answer is yes. =
&nbsp;For over a year Cisco has offered a controller based Integrity =
Verification application. &nbsp;This application does remote attestation =
for routers. &nbsp;See:</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://www.cisco.com/c/dam/en/us/td/docs/cloud-systems-management=
/application-policy-infrastructure-controller-enterprise-module/1-5-x/inte=
grity_verification/user-guide/Cisco_Integrity_Verification_Application_API=
C-EM_User_Guide_1_5_0_x.pdf" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D"">https://www.cisco.com/c/dam/en/us/td/docs/cloud-systems-managem=
ent/application-policy-infrastructure-controller-enterprise-module/1-5-x/i=
ntegrity_verification/user-guide/Cisco_Integrity_Verification_Application_=
APIC-EM_User_Guide_1_5_0_x.pdf</a></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Eric, =
thanks for sharing that. I read it carefully and that helps me =
understand quite a lot in a more concrete way. Even looked at the KGV =
tar ball. In a lot of ways this isn=E2=80=99t too different some EAT =
uses on mobile phones where the idea is to use TrustZone, virtualization =
and other HW architectures to measure Android.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I=E2=80=99m guessing a lot of this is =
implemented with TPMs and TCG ideas. &nbsp;Is that right? If you can =
share implementation HW specifics, then I won=E2=80=99t have to guess =
and have a lower probability of saying dumb things, but understand if =
that is highly proprietary.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_72C371AE-A79F-4FE9-9B0D-C00AF39BB564--


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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
CC: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [EAT] Preliminary RATS BoF Agenda
Thread-Index: AQHUaGGNvCYySbrjaE+BAKDogaa266UoT+VggAFc2DCAAFs+AP//7Yhg
Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2018 17:32:32 +0000
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To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Cc: Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net>, Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>
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From: Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr>
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Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 12:01:41 +0200
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Device Identity (was Re: [EAT] [EXTERNAL] Re: Attestation BoF charter updates?)
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Hello  Henk,

draft-birkholz-core-coid-00 states:*
*

    **An identity document - a certificate - can be conveyed to other
    system entities in order to prove the identity of the owner of the
    identity document.

The wording "identity document" should not be used in the charter, since 
the most important characteristic when using attestations is to be able 
to know
the characteristics of a device, i.e.that it operates as expected, does 
what is required and does not do other (bad) things. Knowing the 
identity of a device
(e.g. the name of its manufacturer and a unique serial number given by 
that manufacturer) may certainly be useful in some cases, but it is not 
always necessary,
nor desirable (e.g. because of privacy issues).

draft-birkholz-core-coid-00 then states:

    "Trust in the proof can be established by mutual trust of the
    provider and assessor of the identity in a third party verification
    (TVP) provided,
    for example, by a certificate authority (CA) or its subsidiaries
    (sub CA)".

A trust relationship is always unilateral : someone trusts somebody for 
something. A reciprocity in a trust relationship is never implied.

A given device MAY disclose /more than one/ attestation, for example:

  * an attestation where only the characteristics of the device are
    certified, or
  * an attestation where both the characteristics of the device and the
    manufacturer identity are certified, or
  * an attestation where the characteristics of the device, the
    manufacturer identity and a unique device serial number are certified.

Such a case could be modeled by using a sequence of three claims 
included in the attestation, namely in that order :
(1) the characteristics of the device, (2) the manufacturer identity and 
(3) the device serial number which would be disclosed by the device
to a verifier "when appropriate".

Another example: a given device MAY disclose /more than one/ attestation:

  * an attestation where only the characteristics of the hardware device
    are certified, or
  * an attestation where both the characteristics of the hardware device
    and of the software running on top of that hardware device are
    certified,

In the general case, an ordered set of claims or a SEQUENCE of claims 
can be supported. This is currently not apparent on the current proposals.

Denis

> Hello Laurence,
>
> unfortunately, I am traveling at the moment, but let me try to address 
> an eclectically chosen topic.
>
> In an attempt to answer your question "What is the definition of an 
> “identity document” I will just reference
>
>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-birkholz-core-coid-00#section-1
>
> for now (instead of writing a wall of text again. Sorry, if I do that 
> sometimes, that does not always help...)
>
> Based on the reference text, the important principle here is that an 
> identity document is signed using secret keys issued by a (sub) 
> certificate authority that one or more entities *can* put trust into.
>
> In comparison, if a CWT is signed with key material deployed on the 
> device in question, what you provide is proof-of-possession of that 
> signing (most likely intended to be secret) key.
>
> Again, you *can* put trust into that proof-of-possession, but the 
> trust relationships here can have vastly different semantics. In both 
> cases though, putting trust into, for example, CoID (via TVP) or EAT 
> (via PoP) is a decision, I think. If you choose to put trust into the 
> signature of these CWT, both are Trusted Claim Sets - to you.
>
> This trust has unfortunately nothing to do with the actual 
> trustworthiness of the thing in question. As Ned illustrated already, 
> "in a closed ecosystem, the trust characteristics and properties may 
> be implied". In consequence, if you choose to trust that possession of 
> a key provides an appropriate level of confidence in trustworthiness - 
> that is a decision you make.
>
> This does not provide actual evidence that a thing is really 
> trustworthy. And providing this evidence via interoperable network 
> protocols is the gap that RATS intent to address - not only in closed 
> ecosystems, but also the Internet in general.
>
> IHTH,
>
> Henk
>
>
> On 10/20/2018 08:19 AM, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>> I consider /device identity/ an absolute critical part of our work. 
>> It is a critical part of most EAT use cases such as enrollment of IoT 
>> devices with IoT management systems. It is the first claim defined in 
>> EAT.
>>
>> What is the definition of an “identity document”? Maybe you are 
>> thinking of it specifically as what was defined for IEEE Dev ID. If I 
>> recall, the identification claims for the device are in the subject 
>> DN of an X.509 certificate.
>>
>> Seems like any EAT with an EUID in it could server well as an 
>> identity document too. It provides signed, secured proof of the 
>> identity of the device. It can include manufacturer info in addition 
>> to the EUID. The EAT style identity could be as tiny as 150 bytes in 
>> CBOR syntax. All you need to store on the device is the EUID and the 
>> signing key. Maybe they are even deterministically KDF’d from the 
>> same seed so you maybe you only need to store 32 bytes on the device.
>>
>> EAT’s mention of X.509 in 1.4.2 is as one of many ways to establish 
>> key material so the remote / relying / verifying party can verify the 
>> signature. So yes, I think you have it correct below. (Technically 
>> speaking the private key associated with the X.509 cert is used to 
>> sign, not the X.509 cert or keys in the cert. The X.509 is only to 
>> help the verifier find and verify the verification key. You might 
>> even have a means to get it from some service based on a key ID and 
>> not even store it on the device).
>>
>> It is an EAT design goal to keep /all/ the claims in the signed 
>> payload. That includes identity of the device, identity of the 
>> manufacturer and so on. That way you can use many different signing 
>> schemes (ECDAA, symmetric key, non-X.509 public key, X.509 pubic key, 
>> simple public key with just a key id…) with the same claims.
>>
>> LL
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Oct 17, 2018, at 5:49 PM, Henk Birkholz 
>>> <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de 
>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Laurence,
>>>
>>> maybe I understand now where the general confusion is originating from.
>>>
>>> I dug through some parts of the EAT draft again and could it be that 
>>> UIED are identifier and not an identities? They literally are claims 
>>> (aka assertions) that can be signed as content of a CWT as 
>>> illustrated in
>>>
>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mandyam-eat-00#section-1.4.2
>>>
>>> 1.4.2. talks about identity documents by mentioning "X.509 
>>> certificate chains or something similar but different". But as you 
>>> highlighted anything with regard to that is explicitly intended 
>>> _not_ to go into the EAT claim set as content, but is stored on the 
>>> thing (or maybe on a thing that signs "on behalf of" the thing the 
>>> EAT is about?) and consequently is only used to potentially sign the 
>>> EAT claim set (via COSE). Is that correct?
>>>
>>> As a result, an EAT would never be able to act as an identity 
>>> document itself, but the key material that comes along with an x.509 
>>> certificate (as one example of many highlighted) could be used to 
>>> sign the EAT.
>>>
>>> RATS are able to use the "X.509 certificate chains or something 
>>> similar but different" and the corresponding key material comes 
>>> along with a certificate (as one example amongst others) to 
>>> establish Attestation Provenance.
>>>
>>> Viele Grüße,
>>>
>>> Henk
>>>
>>> On 10/17/2018 01:19 PM, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>>>> Wasn’t saying there was ambiguity in the TCG case. Not being a 
>>>> TCGer, was just was trying to understand what the TCG definition is.
>>>> Your mentioning 802.1AR DevID helps a lot as I have some knowledge 
>>>> of it.
>>>> I see now that my speculation about SW / config version was wrong. 
>>>> That’s fine. I only wrote it to try to get to clarity.
>>>> Thanks for help clarifying.
>>>> In EAT, we defined a UEID for what TCGer’s mean by “identity":
>>>>    UEID's identify individual manufactured entities / devices such 
>>>> as a
>>>>    mobile phone, a water meter, a Bluetooth speaker or a networked
>>>>    security camera.  It may identify the entire device or a 
>>>> submodule or
>>>>    subsystem.  It does not identify types, models or classes of 
>>>> devices.
>>>>    It is akin to a serial number, though it does not have to be
>>>>    sequential.
>>>> See here 
>>>> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mandyam-eat-00#section-3.1> for 
>>>> more on UEID.
>>>> In EAT there is a strong desire to separate the signing key 
>>>> material from UEID to have flexibility in the signing scheme. For 
>>>> example FIDO and Android both have privacy-preserving schemes were 
>>>> a signing key is shared by 100,000 devices. (Some use cases need 
>>>> privacy, some don’t, perhaps because of legal agreements with 
>>>> customers, and correlation between use cases and privacy schemes 
>>>> can’t be counted on for high-volume devices like mobile phones).
>>>> I don’t know what the right answer(s) is(are) in the design yet...
>>>> LL
>>>>> On Oct 17, 2018, at 4:26 PM, Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net 
>>>>> <mailto:gfedorkow@juniper.net> <mailto:gfedorkow@juniper.net>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Laurence,
>>>>>  I don't think there's ambiguity in the TCG case...  current work 
>>>>> in attestation focuses on using the 802.1AR DevID spec, which 
>>>>> corresponds exactly to one of your cases below -- it's a vendor, 
>>>>> model and serial number.
>>>>>  It's true that TCG technology can be used to validate software 
>>>>> integrity, but that's hardly the same as identity.
>>>>>  Considerations of user privacy commonly accepted in TCG would 
>>>>> preclude the inclusion of software state as part of identity, 
>>>>> practicalities aside.  In general, privacy considerations lead TCG 
>>>>> to carefully avoid unauthorized disclosure of either software or 
>>>>> hardware based assertions.
>>>>>  Let me know if I'm missing the point...
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>> /guy fedorkow, juniper networks
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com 
>>>>> <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com> <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>>
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 12:31 AM
>>>>> To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de 
>>>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> 
>>>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>
>>>>> Cc: Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com <mailto:ned.smith@intel.com> 
>>>>> <mailto:ned.smith@intel.com>>; Hannes Tschofenig 
>>>>> <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com <mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> 
>>>>> <mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>>; rats@ietf.org 
>>>>> <mailto:rats@ietf.org> <mailto:rats@ietf.org>; Jeremy O'Donoghue 
>>>>> <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com <mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com> 
>>>>> <mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>>; Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr 
>>>>> <mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr> <mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr>>; 
>>>>> eat@ietf.org <mailto:eat@ietf.org> <mailto:eat@ietf.org>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [EAT] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Rats] Attestation BoF charter 
>>>>> updates?
>>>>>
>>>>> I think the TCG has a certain developed notion of identity that is 
>>>>> different from others.  A way to get sharper about what a 
>>>>> particular identity means is to describe the space and how the 
>>>>> identifier selects in the space.  Here’s a few examples:
>>>>>
>>>>> - The space is physical human beings with fingers. A fingerprint 
>>>>> scanner select one of these humans. This is typical biometric auth.
>>>>> - The space is humans that know a password. A password 
>>>>> authenticator selects the humans that know the password. Typical 
>>>>> authentication.
>>>>> - The space is humans as legal entities / citizens with criminal 
>>>>> records, passports and such. A national ID selects.
>>>>> - The space is physical manufactured devices from one maker.  A 
>>>>> serial number narrows it down to one physical device.
>>>>> - The space is physical devices from one maker. A model number or 
>>>>> version, narrows down to a subset of these devices.
>>>>>
>>>>> My understanding of the TCG world is that identities goes beyond 
>>>>> any of the above because they include things like the version of 
>>>>> the SW and configuration of the device. The identity is largely a 
>>>>> hash of an identifier of the physical device, various SW 
>>>>> components and various configuration states.  The point being that 
>>>>> a change in any of these is a change in the security 
>>>>> characteristics of the device and if it was trusted with a 
>>>>> particular key or particular data in the past, that trust should 
>>>>> be revoked until re established.
>>>>>
>>>>> - The space is physical devices from any maker
>>>>>  + Measurement of the SW (the SW versions)
>>>>>     + Measurements of some configuration
>>>>>
>>>>> Changing any of these change the identity of the device.
>>>>>
>>>>> I know I hardly need to ask, but TCG folks, did I describe this 
>>>>> correctly?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> So that said, many, perhaps most, use cases for EAT do not want 
>>>>> this kind of device identity. It is not a prerequisite for 
>>>>> trusting  claims coming from the device. In some cases this level 
>>>>> of identity seems extremely disruptive as small SW upgrades could 
>>>>> result in re enrollment of biometrics. We already are annoyed when 
>>>>> we have to answer security questions when start using a service 
>>>>> from a new device.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think this WG needs to address both this very tight TCG-style 
>>>>> device identity and the more heuristic EAT-style 
>>>>> claims-for-risk-engines. I could see multi-decade evolution where 
>>>>> risk engine use cases want more and more of the tight TCG-style 
>>>>> device identity as criminals become more adept at forging 
>>>>> EAT-style claims. (Today risk engines work off of unsecured 
>>>>> browser parameters).
>>>>>
>>>>> The Introduction in the charter seems entirely focused on the 
>>>>> TCG-based identity use case. I think text should be added for 
>>>>> EAT-style attestation. I will write some after some comments on 
>>>>> this message.
>>>>>
>>>>> LL
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Oct 16, 2018, at 8:24 PM, Henk Birkholz 
>>>>>> <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de 
>>>>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> 
>>>>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To quote Carsten, there is "the usual terminology problem about 
>>>>>> identity".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Identifying vs. Identity brings back memories about an extensive 
>>>>>> discussion in SACM that in the end resulted in using Profiles...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Profiles are the "things" that you can aggregate identity claims 
>>>>>> in (in SACM these claims are "Target Endpoint Characteristics", 
>>>>>> which are pretty much the same thing as Device Characteristics) - 
>>>>>> and you use the Profiles to (re-)identify target endpoints.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In the scope of remote attestation procedures, I think that "just 
>>>>>> not calling" claim sets that are composed (amongst others) of 
>>>>>> identifying claims "identity documents" might just end up in 
>>>>>> making up another name for something that is effectively 
>>>>>> composing identity documents anyways. If calling the same thing 
>>>>>> something else helps in some way, I am all for it. But I am 
>>>>>> really not sure.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That said, Ned's elaboration on the relationship of identity and 
>>>>>> attestation claims and corresponding claim semantics / trust 
>>>>>> semantics is spot on, I think.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Viele Grüße,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Henk
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 10/16/2018 03:51 PM, Smith, Ned wrote:
>>>>>>> Agree with Hannes that identity discussion can lead to confusion 
>>>>>>> as identity is often highly dependent on some sort of context 
>>>>>>> (domain of interpretation).
>>>>>>> In order to have productive conversation about attestation and 
>>>>>>> identity, it may be important to understand that attestation 
>>>>>>> semantics sets the context for identity.
>>>>>>> * Attestation attributes have trust semantics (and trust 
>>>>>>> semantics are interpreted through the eyes of the verifier). 
>>>>>>> Identity attributes may also have trust semantics (in addition 
>>>>>>> to identity semantics) hence can be regarded as playing a role 
>>>>>>> in both identity and attestation. Since RATS should be 
>>>>>>> interested primarily in trust semantics, it makes sense to 
>>>>>>> understand, discuss and consider identity in terms of its trust 
>>>>>>> semantics. Hence identity attributes are only interesting to 
>>>>>>> RATS if they are useful for evaluating trust semantics.
>>>>>>> * In a closed ecosystem, the trust characteristics and 
>>>>>>> properties may be implied because there often exists out-of-band 
>>>>>>> processes that ensure the characteristics are applied (for 
>>>>>>> example, if an IT organization sets a policy that all asymmetric 
>>>>>>> keys are to be hardened using a smartcard, they can apply a 
>>>>>>> deployment process where the IT professional verifies the 
>>>>>>> smartcard is used during enrollment.) But in a non-closed 
>>>>>>> ecosystem, there isn't an assumption that out-of-band processes 
>>>>>>> exist. Attestation attempts to make explicit what otherwise is 
>>>>>>> implicit and therefore subject to misinterpretation if the 
>>>>>>> verifier, relying party and attester are not part of the same 
>>>>>>> closed ecosystem. Implicit attestation therefore can lead to 
>>>>>>> semantic confusion if we're not careful. Therefore, the rigor of 
>>>>>>> treating implicit attestation claims (assertions assumed to 
>>>>>>> exist but not explicitly named) should nevertheless be defined 
>>>>>>> explicitly. Then, if there is a need for implicit attestation, 
>>>>>>> the specifications that describe them can describe them in terms 
>>>>>>> of an explicit definition.
>>>>>>> * In the context of asserting trust characteristics, the 
>>>>>>> verifier needs to know that a set of characteristics applies to 
>>>>>>> the instance of the endpoint being evaluated (aka the attester). 
>>>>>>> (Otherwise a MITM could supply characteristics that may be 
>>>>>>> valid, but don’t apply to the specific instance). Consequently, 
>>>>>>> it makes sense to consider that *attestation* keys are needed to 
>>>>>>> authenticate the endpoint being evaluated. This doesn't imply an 
>>>>>>> identity key couldn't double as an attestation key. But if it 
>>>>>>> does, we care about its relevance to the attester endpoint.
>>>>>>> -Ned
>>>>>>> ﻿On 10/15/18, 6:49 PM, "Hannes Tschofenig" 
>>>>>>> <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com <mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> 
>>>>>>> <mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>    Here are my 5 cents on the term 'identity'.
>>>>>>>         I have been working on identity management for many 
>>>>>>> years (partially because of my OAuth co-chair role) and I have 
>>>>>>> noticed that the use of the term "identity" tends to confuse 
>>>>>>> more than it helps (even more so when the term is applied to 
>>>>>>> devices and software rather than humans).
>>>>>>>         I believe we could get away with describing what we want 
>>>>>>> without ever using the term.
>>>>>>>         In this context I would argue that we are about 
>>>>>>> identifying different components, such as hardware and software.
>>>>>>>         Ciao
>>>>>>>    Hannes
>>>>>>>         -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>    From: EAT <eat-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org> 
>>>>>>> <mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf Of Smith, Ned
>>>>>>>    Sent: Monday, October 15, 2018 9:00 AM
>>>>>>>    To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de 
>>>>>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> 
>>>>>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>; rats@ietf.org 
>>>>>>> <mailto:rats@ietf.org> <mailto:rats@ietf.org>; Jeremy O'Donoghue 
>>>>>>> <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com <mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com> 
>>>>>>> <mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>>; Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr 
>>>>>>> <mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr> <mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr>>
>>>>>>>    Cc: eat@ietf.org <mailto:eat@ietf.org> <mailto:eat@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>    Subject: Re: [EAT] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Rats] Attestation BoF 
>>>>>>> charter updates?
>>>>>>>         I agree with Henk's observation that there is 
>>>>>>> opportunity to find common ground on identity as identity can be 
>>>>>>> a collection of attributes, that if signed, becomes a set of 
>>>>>>> verifiable claims (about identity attributes). Attestation has a 
>>>>>>> similar structure in that it consists of a set of attributes, 
>>>>>>> that if signed becomes a set of verifiable claims. The main 
>>>>>>> difference between identity and attestation attributes is 
>>>>>>> whether the attribute semantically relate to trust (vs. 
>>>>>>> identity). For example, claims of security certification 
>>>>>>> compliance resonates as attestation.
>>>>>>>         It may be possible to combine a set of attestation 
>>>>>>> attributes in such a way that the combination uniquely 
>>>>>>> identifies an entity. But that doesn't make it an identity 
>>>>>>> system per se and shouldn't cause a conflict in charter goals 
>>>>>>> with respect to other identity focused efforts in IETF.
>>>>>>>         Also, inclusion of attributes that don't have semantics 
>>>>>>> that reasonably relate to trust should not be of interest to a 
>>>>>>> working group focused on attestation.
>>>>>>>         -Ned
>>>>>>>         On 10/15/18, 3:53 PM, "EAT on behalf of Henk Birkholz" 
>>>>>>> <eat-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org> 
>>>>>>> <mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of 
>>>>>>> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de 
>>>>>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> 
>>>>>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
>>>>>>>             Hi Jeremy & Denis,
>>>>>>>             all these points of view have merit, I think.
>>>>>>>             Please have a look at these quotes:
>>>>>>>> knowing the provenance of the device
>>>>>>>> having the entity creator/manufacturer provide a set of claims 
>>>>>>>> which can be verified
>>>>>>>> to know the characteristics of a device by issuing to the 
>>>>>>>> device a public key certificate which will only be issued to 
>>>>>>>> the device if it fulfills an expected set of functionalities.
>>>>>>>             To me, these descriptions seem to have different 
>>>>>>> intents, scope or
>>>>>>>        audience and require most certainly different work-flows, 
>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>        semantically and in consequence representation-wise they 
>>>>>>> also seem quite
>>>>>>>        related.
>>>>>>>             If you think of an identity document as a set of 
>>>>>>> claims (potentially
>>>>>>>        including a public key), that is signed and that can 
>>>>>>> match one or more
>>>>>>>        things, maybe all three types highlighted above are 
>>>>>>> actually covered by
>>>>>>>        the same identity document concept?
>>>>>>>             With respect to identity documents, I think it is 
>>>>>>> safe so say that we
>>>>>>>        can find common ground here rather easily. That said, the 
>>>>>>> way how these
>>>>>>>        identity documents come into existence, when and how they 
>>>>>>> are deployed
>>>>>>>        on the thing or associated with multiple things is 
>>>>>>> another question. We
>>>>>>>        most certainly do not want to end up with a "signing 
>>>>>>> fool" that does not
>>>>>>>        add value to the level of confidence (I am quoting Ned 
>>>>>>> Smith here).
>>>>>>>             This has to be fleshed out explicitly for each 
>>>>>>> scenario and the parts
>>>>>>>        that are reused in every scenario should get special 
>>>>>>> attention in the
>>>>>>>        upcoming RATS architecture draft.
>>>>>>>             Identifying claims aggregated in an identity 
>>>>>>> document most certainly can
>>>>>>>        include device characteristics, public key(s), or claims 
>>>>>>> about the
>>>>>>>        intended functions and capabilities of the thing. Claims 
>>>>>>> can even
>>>>>>>        originate from Claimants that are not the thing itself, 
>>>>>>> but external
>>>>>>>        entities providing an assertion (e.g. these things are 
>>>>>>> CC-certified).
>>>>>>>             All different composites of identifying claims have 
>>>>>>> a specific shared
>>>>>>>        intend in this context though, I think: expressing 
>>>>>>> Attestation
>>>>>>>        Provenance (again - one for one or more things of the 
>>>>>>> same kind). And
>>>>>>>        all of them originate from Claimants and therefore use a 
>>>>>>> root of trust
>>>>>>>        of measurement, I think.
>>>>>>>             That said, establishing trustworthy knowledge about 
>>>>>>> attestation
>>>>>>>        provenance is only the first step and provides the 
>>>>>>> foundation for more
>>>>>>>        complex attestation procedures. In any case, this seem to 
>>>>>>> be required by
>>>>>>>        every scenario that was highlighted so far and therefore 
>>>>>>> will most
>>>>>>>        certainly be covered in a deliverable.
>>>>>>>             IHTH,
>>>>>>>             Henk
>>>>>>>                  On 10/15/2018 12:22 PM, Jeremy O'Donoghue wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 12 Oct 2018, at 14:33, Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr 
>>>>>>>> <mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr> <mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr>
>>>>>>>> <mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> The "Problem Statement" continues as follows:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> (2) Today, there is no common, standard way for Relying 
>>>>>>>>> Parties to
>>>>>>>>> know the provenance and characteristics of a device (e.g., an 
>>>>>>>>> end-user
>>>>>>>>> device,
>>>>>>>>> platform or endpoint, servers, IoT devices, device subsystems and
>>>>>>>>> sub-modules) that may be requesting services.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Knowing the provenance of the device is not always necessary. 
>>>>>>>>> What is
>>>>>>>>> important is to know that a specific set of functions is 
>>>>>>>>> (securely)
>>>>>>>>> supported by the device.
>>>>>>>>> There already exists a common way to know the characteristics 
>>>>>>>>> of a
>>>>>>>>> device by issuing to the device a public key certificate which 
>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>> only be issued to the device
>>>>>>>>> if it fulfills an expected set of functionalities. In such a 
>>>>>>>>> case a
>>>>>>>>> syntax for a trusted claim sets**is not needed.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is indeed a possible way to address the problem, but 
>>>>>>>> suffers from
>>>>>>>> challenges which come down to:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> - Who issues such certificates. An option is that there is some 
>>>>>>>> form of
>>>>>>>> security certification behind this issuance otherwise it is of 
>>>>>>>> very
>>>>>>>> limited value.
>>>>>>>> - In order to capture the wide variety of different devices (I 
>>>>>>>> prefer
>>>>>>>> "entity" here as it is more general than "device"), many 
>>>>>>>> different forms
>>>>>>>> of such certificates would be required. This ends up being much 
>>>>>>>> the same
>>>>>>>> thing as a set of claims.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Given the multiplicity of entities for which attestation might be
>>>>>>>> useful, it seems to me that having the entity creator/manufacturer
>>>>>>>> provide a set of claims which can be verified is more flexible 
>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>> requiring a certificate. It seems likely to me that where a formal
>>>>>>>> security certification is needed there will be a certificate 
>>>>>>>> issued by
>>>>>>>> the Certifying Body as one of the claims about an entity, but I 
>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>> think of many cases (supply chain management, to take just one 
>>>>>>>> example)
>>>>>>>> where provenance is by far the most useful information.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm not in favour of changes to the charter in this direction.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The simplest cases should also be part of the framework.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Note: I personally appreciate that privacy is an aspect that
>>>>>>>>> will/should be taken into consideration.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Denis
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As with the earlier draft, there are many references to 
>>>>>>>>>> verify and
>>>>>>>>>> verifier in the lead up to the deliverable but no 
>>>>>>>>>> deliverables describing
>>>>>>>>>> verification rules. I'd like to see rules in one of these 
>>>>>>>>>> documents and
>>>>>>>>>> think it worth citing in the deliverables. Are bindings to 
>>>>>>>>>> certificate
>>>>>>>>>> management protocols out of scope?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 10/11/18, 9:49 AM, "RATS on behalf of Henk Birkholz"
>>>>>>>>>> <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org> 
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of 
>>>>>>>>>> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de 
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> 
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>  wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> sorry for the delay. Please find an updated charter proposal 
>>>>>>>>>>> here:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_ietf-2Drats_charter_blob_RC2_ietf-2Drats-2Dcharter.md&d=DwIFaQ&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=sebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&m=p5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&s=rPzmwhcwy8eob4eMiwWzDg5DY-mcC5HYgQqhUGCZ2RI&e= 
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The BoF proponents tried to merge all comments and proposals on
>>>>>>>>>>> keystores, existing solutions, provenance & device 
>>>>>>>>>>> characteristics, etc
>>>>>>>>>>> that were raised on the list - and align them in homogeneous 
>>>>>>>>>>> fashion.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This draft is intended to focus the discussion and improve 
>>>>>>>>>>> the wording.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Viele Grüße,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Henk
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/06/2018 08:23 AM, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Henk,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Bangkok IETF is getting close, will you be able to update 
>>>>>>>>>>>> the charter
>>>>>>>>>>>> for the attestation BoF to properly include EAT?  I sent 
>>>>>>>>>>>> you some text
>>>>>>>>>>>> that just needs to be pasted along with some comments. It 
>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn’t look
>>>>>>>>>>>> like there’s been any updates.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> LL
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> RATS mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org> <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_rats&d=DwIFaQ&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=sebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&m=p5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&s=xThsQTXgadltVkHTYpOWknadi7puxZt8O6XOIUm_bzo&e= 
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> EAT mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> EAT@ietf.org <mailto:EAT@ietf.org> <mailto:EAT@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_eat&d=DwIFaQ&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=sebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&m=p5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&s=N7kKkDdCvl_MNmB3Guyg9HC-kQnMrX1cP5w44SbDsAw&e= 
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> EAT mailing list
>>>>>>>>> EAT@ietf.org <mailto:EAT@ietf.org> <mailto:EAT@ietf.org> 
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:EAT@ietf.org>
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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix"><font face="Arial">Hello  Henk,<br>
        <br>
        <span style="font-size: 12pt;">draft-birkholz-core-coid-00
          states:<b><br>
          </b></span></font><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
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      <blockquote><font face="Arial"><span style="font-size: 12pt;"><b>
            </b></span><span style="font-size: 12pt;" lang="EN-US">An
            identity document - a certificate - can be
            conveyed to other system entities in order to prove the
            identity of the owner
            of the identity document. </span><br>
          <span style="font-size: 12pt;" lang="EN-US"></span></font></blockquote>
      <span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;
        mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New
        Roman&quot;;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
        FR;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US">
        The wording "identity document" should not be used in the
        charter, since the most
        important characteristic when using attestations is to be able
        to know <br>
        the </span><span
        style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
        mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New
        Roman&quot;;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
        FR;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US">characteristics of a
        device, i.e.</span><span
        style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:
        &quot;Times New
Roman&quot;;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:FR;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA"
        lang="EN-US"> that it </span><span
        style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
        10.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New
        Roman&quot;;mso-ansi-language:
        EN-US;mso-fareast-language:FR;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA"
        lang="EN-US">operates as expected,
        does what is required and does not do other (bad) things.
        Knowing the identity
        of a device <br>
        (e.g. the name of its manufacturer and a unique serial number
        given
        by that manufacturer) may certainly be useful in some cases, but
        it is not
        always necessary, <br>
        nor desirable (e.g. because of privacy issues).<br>
        <br>
      </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
        10.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New
        Roman&quot;;mso-ansi-language:
        EN-US;mso-fareast-language:FR;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA"
        lang="EN-US"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;
          mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New
          Roman&quot;;mso-ansi-language:FR;mso-fareast-language:
          FR;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA">draft-birkholz-core-coid-00 </span>then
        states: <br>
      </span>
      <blockquote><span style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:
          10.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times
          New Roman&quot;;mso-ansi-language:
          EN-US;mso-fareast-language:FR;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA"
          lang="EN-US">
          "</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;
          mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New
          Roman&quot;;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
          FR;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US">Trust in the proof
          can be established by <span style="color:blue">mutual trust</span>
          <span style="color:blue">of the provider
            and assessor of the identity</span> in a third party
          verification (TVP)
          provided, <br>
          for example, by a certificate authority (CA) or its
          subsidiaries (sub
          CA)".</span><br>
        <span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;
          mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New
          Roman&quot;;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
          FR;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"></span></blockquote>
      <span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial;
        mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New
        Roman&quot;;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
        FR;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US">
        A trust relationship is always unilateral : someone trusts
        somebody for
        something. A reciprocity in a trust relationship is never
        implied. </span><span
        style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
        mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New
        Roman&quot;;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
        FR;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US"><br>
        <br>
        A given device MAY disclose <i>more than one</i> attestation,
        for example: <br>
      </span>
      <ul>
        <li><span
            style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
            mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New
            Roman&quot;;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
            FR;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US">
            an attestation where only the characteristics of the device
            are certified, or</span></li>
        <li><span
            style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
            mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New
            Roman&quot;;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
            FR;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US">
            an attestation where both the characteristics of the device
            and the
            manufacturer identity are certified, or</span></li>
        <li><span
            style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
            mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New
            Roman&quot;;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
            FR;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US">
            an attestation where the characteristics of the device, the
            manufacturer
            identity and a unique device serial number are certified.</span></li>
      </ul>
      <span
        style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
        mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New
        Roman&quot;;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
        FR;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US">
        Such a case could be modeled by using a sequence of three claims
        included in
        the attestation, namely in that order : <br>
        (1) the characteristics of the device,
        (2) the manufacturer identity and (3) the device serial number
        which would be
        disclosed by the device <br>
        to a verifier "when appropriate".<br>
        <br>
        Another example: a given device MAY disclose <i>more than one</i>
        attestation: <br>
      </span>
      <ul>
        <li><span
            style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
            mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New
            Roman&quot;;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
            FR;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US">
            an attestation where only the characteristics of the
            hardware device are certified,
            or</span></li>
        <li><span
            style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
            mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New
            Roman&quot;;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
            FR;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US">
            an attestation where both the characteristics of the
            hardware device and of the
            software running on top of that hardware device are
            certified,</span></li>
      </ul>
      <span
        style="font-size:12.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;
        mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New
        Roman&quot;;mso-ansi-language:EN-US;mso-fareast-language:
        FR;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA" lang="EN-US">
        In the general case, an ordered set of claims or a SEQUENCE of
        claims can be
        supported. This is currently not apparent on the current
        proposals.<br style="mso-special-character:line-break">
        <br style="mso-special-character:line-break">
      </span>Denis<br>
      <br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:aaf49ef2-d161-aa9d-7b8a-fd852c5806c4@sit.fraunhofer.de">Hello
      Laurence,
      <br>
      <br>
      unfortunately, I am traveling at the moment, but let me try to
      address an eclectically chosen topic.
      <br>
      <br>
      In an attempt to answer your question "What is the definition of
      an “identity document” I will just reference
      <br>
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-birkholz-core-coid-00#section-1">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-birkholz-core-coid-00#section-1</a>
        <br>
      </blockquote>
      <br>
      for now (instead of writing a wall of text again. Sorry, if I do
      that sometimes, that does not always help...)
      <br>
      <br>
      Based on the reference text, the important principle here is that
      an identity document is signed using secret keys issued by a (sub)
      certificate authority that one or more entities *can* put trust
      into.
      <br>
      <br>
      In comparison, if a CWT is signed with key material deployed on
      the device in question, what you provide is proof-of-possession of
      that signing (most likely intended to be secret) key.
      <br>
      <br>
      Again, you *can* put trust into that proof-of-possession, but the
      trust relationships here can have vastly different semantics. In
      both cases though, putting trust into, for example, CoID (via TVP)
      or EAT (via PoP) is a decision, I think. If you choose to put
      trust into the signature of these CWT, both are Trusted Claim Sets
      - to you.
      <br>
      <br>
      This trust has unfortunately nothing to do with the actual
      trustworthiness of the thing in question. As Ned illustrated
      already, "in a closed ecosystem, the trust characteristics and
      properties may be implied". In consequence, if you choose to trust
      that possession of a key provides an appropriate level of
      confidence in trustworthiness - that is a decision you make.
      <br>
      <br>
      This does not provide actual evidence that a thing is really
      trustworthy. And providing this evidence via interoperable network
      protocols is the gap that RATS intent to address - not only in
      closed ecosystems, but also the Internet in general.
      <br>
      <br>
      IHTH,
      <br>
      <br>
      Henk
      <br>
      <br>
      <br>
      On 10/20/2018 08:19 AM, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
      <br>
      <blockquote type="cite">I consider /device identity/ an absolute
        critical part of our work. It is a critical part of most EAT use
        cases such as enrollment of IoT devices with IoT management
        systems. It is the first claim defined in EAT.
        <br>
        <br>
        What is the definition of an “identity document”? Maybe you are
        thinking of it specifically as what was defined for IEEE Dev ID.
        If I recall, the identification claims for the device are in the
        subject DN of an X.509 certificate.
        <br>
        <br>
        Seems like any EAT with an EUID in it could server well as an
        identity document too. It provides signed, secured proof of the
        identity of the device. It can include manufacturer info in
        addition to the EUID. The EAT style identity could be as tiny as
        150 bytes in CBOR syntax. All you need to store on the device is
        the EUID and the signing key. Maybe they are even
        deterministically KDF’d from the same seed so you maybe you only
        need to store 32 bytes on the device.
        <br>
        <br>
        EAT’s mention of X.509 in 1.4.2 is as one of many ways to
        establish key material so the remote / relying / verifying party
        can verify the signature. So yes, I think you have it correct
        below. (Technically speaking the private key associated with the
        X.509 cert is used to sign, not the X.509 cert or keys in the
        cert. The X.509 is only to help the verifier find and verify the
        verification key. You might even have a means to get it from
        some service based on a key ID and not even store it on the
        device).
        <br>
        <br>
        It is an EAT design goal to keep /all/ the claims in the signed
        payload. That includes identity of the device, identity of the
        manufacturer and so on. That way you can use many different
        signing schemes (ECDAA, symmetric key, non-X.509 public key,
        X.509 pubic key, simple public key with just a key id…) with the
        same claims.
        <br>
        <br>
        LL
        <br>
        <br>
        <br>
        <br>
        <br>
        <blockquote type="cite">On Oct 17, 2018, at 5:49 PM, Henk
          Birkholz &lt;<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>
          <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de">&lt;mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de&gt;</a>&gt; wrote:
          <br>
          <br>
          Hi Laurence,
          <br>
          <br>
          maybe I understand now where the general confusion is
          originating from.
          <br>
          <br>
          I dug through some parts of the EAT draft again and could it
          be that UIED are identifier and not an identities? They
          literally are claims (aka assertions) that can be signed as
          content of a CWT as illustrated in
          <br>
          <br>
          <blockquote type="cite"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mandyam-eat-00#section-1.4.2">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mandyam-eat-00#section-1.4.2</a>
            <br>
          </blockquote>
          <br>
          1.4.2. talks about identity documents by mentioning "X.509
          certificate chains or something similar but different". But as
          you highlighted anything with regard to that is explicitly
          intended _not_ to go into the EAT claim set as content, but is
          stored on the thing (or maybe on a thing that signs "on behalf
          of" the thing the EAT is about?) and consequently is only used
          to potentially sign the EAT claim set (via COSE). Is that
          correct?
          <br>
          <br>
          As a result, an EAT would never be able to act as an identity
          document itself, but the key material that comes along with an
          x.509 certificate (as one example of many highlighted) could
          be used to sign the EAT.
          <br>
          <br>
          RATS are able to use the "X.509 certificate chains or
          something similar but different" and the corresponding key
          material comes along with a certificate (as one example
          amongst others) to establish Attestation Provenance.
          <br>
          <br>
          Viele Grüße,
          <br>
          <br>
          Henk
          <br>
          <br>
          On 10/17/2018 01:19 PM, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
          <br>
          <blockquote type="cite">Wasn’t saying there was ambiguity in
            the TCG case. Not being a TCGer, was just was trying to
            understand what the TCG definition is.
            <br>
            Your mentioning 802.1AR DevID helps a lot as I have some
            knowledge of it.
            <br>
            I see now that my speculation about SW / config version was
            wrong. That’s fine. I only wrote it to try to get to
            clarity.
            <br>
            Thanks for help clarifying.
            <br>
            In EAT, we defined a UEID for what TCGer’s mean by
            “identity":
            <br>
               UEID's identify individual manufactured entities /
            devices such as a
            <br>
               mobile phone, a water meter, a Bluetooth speaker or a
            networked
            <br>
               security camera.  It may identify the entire device or a
            submodule or
            <br>
               subsystem.  It does not identify types, models or classes
            of devices.
            <br>
               It is akin to a serial number, though it does not have to
            be
            <br>
               sequential.
            <br>
            See here
            <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mandyam-eat-00#section-3.1">&lt;https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mandyam-eat-00#section-3.1&gt;</a>
            for more on UEID.
            <br>
            In EAT there is a strong desire to separate the signing key
            material from UEID to have flexibility in the signing
            scheme. For example FIDO and Android both have
            privacy-preserving schemes were a signing key is shared by
            100,000 devices. (Some use cases need privacy, some don’t,
            perhaps because of legal agreements with customers, and
            correlation between use cases and privacy schemes can’t be
            counted on for high-volume devices like mobile phones).
            <br>
            I don’t know what the right answer(s) is(are) in the design
            yet...
            <br>
            LL
            <br>
            <blockquote type="cite">On Oct 17, 2018, at 4:26 PM, Guy
              Fedorkow &lt;<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:gfedorkow@juniper.net">gfedorkow@juniper.net</a>
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gfedorkow@juniper.net">&lt;mailto:gfedorkow@juniper.net&gt;</a>
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:gfedorkow@juniper.net">&lt;mailto:gfedorkow@juniper.net&gt;</a>&gt; wrote:
              <br>
              <br>
              Hi Laurence,
              <br>
               I don't think there's ambiguity in the TCG case...
               current work in attestation focuses on using the 802.1AR
              DevID spec, which corresponds exactly to one of your cases
              below -- it's a vendor, model and serial number.
              <br>
               It's true that TCG technology can be used to validate
              software integrity, but that's hardly the same as
              identity.
              <br>
               Considerations of user privacy commonly accepted in TCG
              would preclude the inclusion of software state as part of
              identity, practicalities aside.  In general, privacy
              considerations lead TCG to carefully avoid unauthorized
              disclosure of either software or hardware based
              assertions.
              <br>
               Let me know if I'm missing the point...
              <br>
              Thanks
              <br>
              /guy fedorkow, juniper networks
              <br>
              <br>
              -----Original Message-----
              <br>
              From: Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:lgl@island-resort.com">lgl@island-resort.com</a>
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lgl@island-resort.com">&lt;mailto:lgl@island-resort.com&gt;</a>
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lgl@island-resort.com">&lt;mailto:lgl@island-resort.com&gt;</a>&gt;
              <br>
              Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 12:31 AM
              <br>
              To: Henk Birkholz &lt;<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de">&lt;mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de&gt;</a>
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de">&lt;mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de&gt;</a>&gt;
              <br>
              Cc: Smith, Ned &lt;<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ned.smith@intel.com">ned.smith@intel.com</a>
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ned.smith@intel.com">&lt;mailto:ned.smith@intel.com&gt;</a>
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ned.smith@intel.com">&lt;mailto:ned.smith@intel.com&gt;</a>&gt;; Hannes Tschofenig
              &lt;<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com">Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com</a>
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com">&lt;mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com&gt;</a>
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com">&lt;mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com&gt;</a>&gt;;
              <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:rats@ietf.org">rats@ietf.org</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rats@ietf.org">&lt;mailto:rats@ietf.org&gt;</a>
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rats@ietf.org">&lt;mailto:rats@ietf.org&gt;</a>; Jeremy O'Donoghue
              &lt;<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com">jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com</a>
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com">&lt;mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com&gt;</a>
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com">&lt;mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com&gt;</a>&gt;; Denis
              &lt;<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr">denis.ietf@free.fr</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr">&lt;mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr&gt;</a>
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr">&lt;mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr&gt;</a>&gt;; <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:eat@ietf.org">eat@ietf.org</a>
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:eat@ietf.org">&lt;mailto:eat@ietf.org&gt;</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:eat@ietf.org">&lt;mailto:eat@ietf.org&gt;</a>
              <br>
              Subject: Re: [EAT] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Rats] Attestation BoF
              charter updates?
              <br>
              <br>
              I think the TCG has a certain developed notion of identity
              that is different from others.  A way to get sharper about
              what a particular identity means is to describe the space
              and how the identifier selects in the space.  Here’s a few
              examples:
              <br>
              <br>
              - The space is physical human beings with fingers. A
              fingerprint scanner select one of these humans. This is
              typical biometric auth.
              <br>
              - The space is humans that know a password. A password
              authenticator selects the humans that know the password.
              Typical authentication.
              <br>
              - The space is humans as legal entities / citizens with
              criminal records, passports and such. A national ID
              selects.
              <br>
              - The space is physical manufactured devices from one
              maker.  A serial number narrows it down to one physical
              device.
              <br>
              - The space is physical devices from one maker. A model
              number or version, narrows down to a subset of these
              devices.
              <br>
              <br>
              My understanding of the TCG world is that identities goes
              beyond any of the above because they include things like
              the version of the SW and configuration of the device. The
              identity is largely a hash of an identifier of the
              physical device, various SW components and various
              configuration states.  The point being that a change in
              any of these is a change in the security characteristics
              of the device and if it was trusted with a particular key
              or particular data in the past, that trust should be
              revoked until re established.
              <br>
              <br>
              - The space is physical devices from any maker
              <br>
               + Measurement of the SW (the SW versions)
              <br>
                  + Measurements of some configuration
              <br>
              <br>
              Changing any of these change the identity of the device.
              <br>
              <br>
              I know I hardly need to ask, but TCG folks, did I describe
              this correctly?
              <br>
              <br>
              <br>
              So that said, many, perhaps most, use cases for EAT do not
              want this kind of device identity. It is not a
              prerequisite for trusting  claims coming from the device.
              In some cases this level of identity seems extremely
              disruptive as small SW upgrades could result in re
              enrollment of biometrics. We already are annoyed when we
              have to answer security questions when start using a
              service from a new device.
              <br>
              <br>
              I think this WG needs to address both this very tight
              TCG-style device identity and the more heuristic EAT-style
              claims-for-risk-engines. I could see multi-decade
              evolution where risk engine use cases want more and more
              of the tight TCG-style device identity as criminals become
              more adept at forging EAT-style claims. (Today risk
              engines work off of unsecured browser parameters).
              <br>
              <br>
              The Introduction in the charter seems entirely focused on
              the TCG-based identity use case. I think text should be
              added for EAT-style attestation. I will write some after
              some comments on this message.
              <br>
              <br>
              LL
              <br>
              <br>
              <br>
              <br>
              <br>
              <br>
              <blockquote type="cite">On Oct 16, 2018, at 8:24 PM, Henk
                Birkholz &lt;<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>
                <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de">&lt;mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de&gt;</a>
                <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de">&lt;mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de&gt;</a>&gt;
                wrote:
                <br>
                <br>
                To quote Carsten, there is "the usual terminology
                problem about identity".
                <br>
                <br>
                Identifying vs. Identity brings back memories about an
                extensive discussion in SACM that in the end resulted in
                using Profiles...
                <br>
                <br>
                Profiles are the "things" that you can aggregate
                identity claims in (in SACM these claims are "Target
                Endpoint Characteristics", which are pretty much the
                same thing as Device Characteristics) - and you use the
                Profiles to (re-)identify target endpoints.
                <br>
                <br>
                In the scope of remote attestation procedures, I think
                that "just not calling" claim sets that are composed
                (amongst others) of identifying claims "identity
                documents" might just end up in making up another name
                for something that is effectively composing identity
                documents anyways. If calling the same thing something
                else helps in some way, I am all for it. But I am really
                not sure.
                <br>
                <br>
                That said, Ned's elaboration on the relationship of
                identity and attestation claims and corresponding claim
                semantics / trust semantics is spot on, I think.
                <br>
                <br>
                Viele Grüße,
                <br>
                <br>
                Henk
                <br>
                <br>
                On 10/16/2018 03:51 PM, Smith, Ned wrote:
                <br>
                <blockquote type="cite">Agree with Hannes that identity
                  discussion can lead to confusion as identity is often
                  highly dependent on some sort of context (domain of
                  interpretation).
                  <br>
                  In order to have productive conversation about
                  attestation and identity, it may be important to
                  understand that attestation semantics sets the context
                  for identity.
                  <br>
                  * Attestation attributes have trust semantics (and
                  trust semantics are interpreted through the eyes of
                  the verifier). Identity attributes may also have trust
                  semantics (in addition to identity semantics) hence
                  can be regarded as playing a role in both identity and
                  attestation. Since RATS should be interested primarily
                  in trust semantics, it makes sense to understand,
                  discuss and consider identity in terms of its trust
                  semantics. Hence identity attributes are only
                  interesting to RATS if they are useful for evaluating
                  trust semantics.
                  <br>
                  * In a closed ecosystem, the trust characteristics and
                  properties may be implied because there often exists
                  out-of-band processes that ensure the characteristics
                  are applied (for example, if an IT organization sets a
                  policy that all asymmetric keys are to be hardened
                  using a smartcard, they can apply a deployment process
                  where the IT professional verifies the smartcard is
                  used during enrollment.) But in a non-closed
                  ecosystem, there isn't an assumption that out-of-band
                  processes exist. Attestation attempts to make explicit
                  what otherwise is implicit and therefore subject to
                  misinterpretation if the verifier, relying party and
                  attester are not part of the same closed ecosystem.
                  Implicit attestation therefore can lead to semantic
                  confusion if we're not careful. Therefore, the rigor
                  of treating implicit attestation claims (assertions
                  assumed to exist but not explicitly named) should
                  nevertheless be defined explicitly. Then, if there is
                  a need for implicit attestation, the specifications
                  that describe them can describe them in terms of an
                  explicit definition.
                  <br>
                  * In the context of asserting trust characteristics,
                  the verifier needs to know that a set of
                  characteristics applies to the instance of the
                  endpoint being evaluated (aka the attester).
                  (Otherwise a MITM could supply characteristics that
                  may be valid, but don’t apply to the specific
                  instance). Consequently, it makes sense to consider
                  that *attestation* keys are needed to authenticate the
                  endpoint being evaluated. This doesn't imply an
                  identity key couldn't double as an attestation key.
                  But if it does, we care about its relevance to the
                  attester endpoint.
                  <br>
                  -Ned
                  <br>
                  ﻿On 10/15/18, 6:49 PM, "Hannes Tschofenig"
                  &lt;<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com">Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com</a>
                  <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com">&lt;mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com&gt;</a>
                  <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com">&lt;mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com&gt;</a>&gt; wrote:
                  <br>
                     Here are my 5 cents on the term 'identity'.
                  <br>
                          I have been working on identity management for
                  many years (partially because of my OAuth co-chair
                  role) and I have noticed that the use of the term
                  "identity" tends to confuse more than it helps (even
                  more so when the term is applied to devices and
                  software rather than humans).
                  <br>
                          I believe we could get away with describing
                  what we want without ever using the term.
                  <br>
                          In this context I would argue that we are
                  about identifying different components, such as
                  hardware and software.
                  <br>
                          Ciao
                  <br>
                     Hannes
                  <br>
                          -----Original Message-----
                  <br>
                     From: EAT &lt;<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org">eat-bounces@ietf.org</a>
                  <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org">&lt;mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org&gt;</a>
                  <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org">&lt;mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org&gt;</a>&gt; On Behalf Of
                  Smith, Ned
                  <br>
                     Sent: Monday, October 15, 2018 9:00 AM
                  <br>
                     To: Henk Birkholz
                  &lt;<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>
                  <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de">&lt;mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de&gt;</a>
                  <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de">&lt;mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de&gt;</a>&gt;;
                  <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:rats@ietf.org">rats@ietf.org</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rats@ietf.org">&lt;mailto:rats@ietf.org&gt;</a>
                  <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rats@ietf.org">&lt;mailto:rats@ietf.org&gt;</a>; Jeremy O'Donoghue
                  &lt;<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com">jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com</a>
                  <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com">&lt;mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com&gt;</a>
                  <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com">&lt;mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com&gt;</a>&gt;; Denis
                  &lt;<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr">denis.ietf@free.fr</a>
                  <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr">&lt;mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr&gt;</a>
                  <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr">&lt;mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr&gt;</a>&gt;
                  <br>
                     Cc: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:eat@ietf.org">eat@ietf.org</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:eat@ietf.org">&lt;mailto:eat@ietf.org&gt;</a>
                  <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:eat@ietf.org">&lt;mailto:eat@ietf.org&gt;</a>
                  <br>
                     Subject: Re: [EAT] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Rats]
                  Attestation BoF charter updates?
                  <br>
                          I agree with Henk's observation that there is
                  opportunity to find common ground on identity as
                  identity can be a collection of attributes, that if
                  signed, becomes a set of verifiable claims (about
                  identity attributes). Attestation has a similar
                  structure in that it consists of a set of attributes,
                  that if signed becomes a set of verifiable claims. The
                  main difference between identity and attestation
                  attributes is whether the attribute semantically
                  relate to trust (vs. identity). For example, claims of
                  security certification compliance resonates as
                  attestation.
                  <br>
                          It may be possible to combine a set of
                  attestation attributes in such a way that the
                  combination uniquely identifies an entity. But that
                  doesn't make it an identity system per se and
                  shouldn't cause a conflict in charter goals with
                  respect to other identity focused efforts in IETF.
                  <br>
                          Also, inclusion of attributes that don't have
                  semantics that reasonably relate to trust should not
                  be of interest to a working group focused on
                  attestation.
                  <br>
                          -Ned
                  <br>
                          On 10/15/18, 3:53 PM, "EAT on behalf of Henk
                  Birkholz" &lt;<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org">eat-bounces@ietf.org</a>
                  <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org">&lt;mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org&gt;</a>
                  <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org">&lt;mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org&gt;</a> on behalf of
                  <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>
                  <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de">&lt;mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de&gt;</a>
                  <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de">&lt;mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de&gt;</a>&gt;
                  wrote:
                  <br>
                              Hi Jeremy &amp; Denis,
                  <br>
                              all these points of view have merit, I
                  think.
                  <br>
                              Please have a look at these quotes:
                  <br>
                  <blockquote type="cite">knowing the provenance of the
                    device
                    <br>
                    having the entity creator/manufacturer provide a set
                    of claims which can be verified
                    <br>
                    to know the characteristics of a device by issuing
                    to the device a public key certificate which will
                    only be issued to the device if it fulfills an
                    expected set of functionalities.
                    <br>
                  </blockquote>
                              To me, these descriptions seem to have
                  different intents, scope or
                  <br>
                         audience and require most certainly different
                  work-flows, but
                  <br>
                         semantically and in consequence
                  representation-wise they also seem quite
                  <br>
                         related.
                  <br>
                              If you think of an identity document as a
                  set of claims (potentially
                  <br>
                         including a public key), that is signed and
                  that can match one or more
                  <br>
                         things, maybe all three types highlighted above
                  are actually covered by
                  <br>
                         the same identity document concept?
                  <br>
                              With respect to identity documents, I
                  think it is safe so say that we
                  <br>
                         can find common ground here rather easily. That
                  said, the way how these
                  <br>
                         identity documents come into existence, when
                  and how they are deployed
                  <br>
                         on the thing or associated with multiple things
                  is another question. We
                  <br>
                         most certainly do not want to end up with a
                  "signing fool" that does not
                  <br>
                         add value to the level of confidence (I am
                  quoting Ned Smith here).
                  <br>
                              This has to be fleshed out explicitly for
                  each scenario and the parts
                  <br>
                         that are reused in every scenario should get
                  special attention in the
                  <br>
                         upcoming RATS architecture draft.
                  <br>
                              Identifying claims aggregated in an
                  identity document most certainly can
                  <br>
                         include device characteristics, public key(s),
                  or claims about the
                  <br>
                         intended functions and capabilities of the
                  thing. Claims can even
                  <br>
                         originate from Claimants that are not the thing
                  itself, but external
                  <br>
                         entities providing an assertion (e.g. these
                  things are CC-certified).
                  <br>
                              All different composites of identifying
                  claims have a specific shared
                  <br>
                         intend in this context though, I think:
                  expressing Attestation
                  <br>
                         Provenance (again - one for one or more things
                  of the same kind). And
                  <br>
                         all of them originate from Claimants and
                  therefore use a root of trust
                  <br>
                         of measurement, I think.
                  <br>
                              That said, establishing trustworthy
                  knowledge about attestation
                  <br>
                         provenance is only the first step and provides
                  the foundation for more
                  <br>
                         complex attestation procedures. In any case,
                  this seem to be required by
                  <br>
                         every scenario that was highlighted so far and
                  therefore will most
                  <br>
                         certainly be covered in a deliverable.
                  <br>
                              IHTH,
                  <br>
                              Henk
                  <br>
                                   On 10/15/2018 12:22 PM, Jeremy
                  O'Donoghue wrote:
                  <br>
                  <blockquote type="cite">On 12 Oct 2018, at 14:33,
                    Denis &lt;<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr">denis.ietf@free.fr</a>
                    <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr">&lt;mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr&gt;</a>
                    <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr">&lt;mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr&gt;</a>
                    <br>
                    <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr">&lt;mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr&gt;</a>&gt; wrote:
                    <br>
                    <blockquote type="cite">The "Problem Statement"
                      continues as follows:
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      (2) Today, there is no common, standard way for
                      Relying Parties to
                      <br>
                      know the provenance and characteristics of a
                      device (e.g., an end-user
                      <br>
                      device,
                      <br>
                      platform or endpoint, servers, IoT devices, device
                      subsystems and
                      <br>
                      sub-modules) that may be requesting services.
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      Knowing the provenance of the device is not always
                      necessary. What is
                      <br>
                      important is to know that a specific set of
                      functions is (securely)
                      <br>
                      supported by the device.
                      <br>
                      There already exists a common way to know the
                      characteristics of a
                      <br>
                      device by issuing to the device a public key
                      certificate which will
                      <br>
                      only be issued to the device
                      <br>
                      if it fulfills an expected set of functionalities.
                      In such a case a
                      <br>
                      syntax for a trusted claim sets**is not needed.
                      <br>
                      <br>
                    </blockquote>
                    This is indeed a possible way to address the
                    problem, but suffers from
                    <br>
                    challenges which come down to:
                    <br>
                    <br>
                    - Who issues such certificates. An option is that
                    there is some form of
                    <br>
                    security certification behind this issuance
                    otherwise it is of very
                    <br>
                    limited value.
                    <br>
                    - In order to capture the wide variety of different
                    devices (I prefer
                    <br>
                    "entity" here as it is more general than "device"),
                    many different forms
                    <br>
                    of such certificates would be required. This ends up
                    being much the same
                    <br>
                    thing as a set of claims.
                    <br>
                    <br>
                    Given the multiplicity of entities for which
                    attestation might be
                    <br>
                    useful, it seems to me that having the entity
                    creator/manufacturer
                    <br>
                    provide a set of claims which can be verified is
                    more flexible than
                    <br>
                    requiring a certificate. It seems likely to me that
                    where a formal
                    <br>
                    security certification is needed there will be a
                    certificate issued by
                    <br>
                    the Certifying Body as one of the claims about an
                    entity, but I can
                    <br>
                    think of many cases (supply chain management, to
                    take just one example)
                    <br>
                    where provenance is by far the most useful
                    information.
                    <br>
                    <br>
                    I'm not in favour of changes to the charter in this
                    direction.
                    <br>
                    <blockquote type="cite">
                      <br>
                      The simplest cases should also be part of the
                      framework.
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      Note: I personally appreciate that privacy is an
                      aspect that
                      <br>
                      will/should be taken into consideration.
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      Denis
                      <br>
                      <br>
                      <blockquote type="cite">As with the earlier draft,
                        there are many references to verify and
                        <br>
                        verifier in the lead up to the deliverable but
                        no deliverables describing
                        <br>
                        verification rules. I'd like to see rules in one
                        of these documents and
                        <br>
                        think it worth citing in the deliverables. Are
                        bindings to certificate
                        <br>
                        management protocols out of scope?
                        <br>
                        <br>
                        On 10/11/18, 9:49 AM, "RATS on behalf of Henk
                        Birkholz"
                        <br>
                        &lt;<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>
                        <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org">&lt;mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org&gt;</a>
                        <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org">&lt;mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org&gt;</a> on behalf
                        of <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>
                        <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de">&lt;mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de&gt;</a>
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                         wrote:
                        <br>
                        <br>
                        <blockquote type="cite">Hi all,
                          <br>
                          <br>
                          sorry for the delay. Please find an updated
                          charter proposal here:
                          <br>
                          <br>
                          <blockquote type="cite"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_ietf-2Drats_charter_blob_RC2_ietf-2Drats-2Dcharter.md&amp;d=DwIFaQ&amp;c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=sebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&amp;m=p5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&amp;s=rPzmwhcwy8eob4eMiwWzDg5DY-mcC5HYgQqhUGCZ2RI&amp;e=">https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_ietf-2Drats_charter_blob_RC2_ietf-2Drats-2Dcharter.md&amp;d=DwIFaQ&amp;c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&amp;r=sebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&amp;m=p5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&amp;s=rPzmwhcwy8eob4eMiwWzDg5DY-mcC5HYgQqhUGCZ2RI&amp;e=</a>
                            <br>
                          </blockquote>
                          The BoF proponents tried to merge all comments
                          and proposals on
                          <br>
                          keystores, existing solutions, provenance
                          &amp; device characteristics, etc
                          <br>
                          that were raised on the list - and align them
                          in homogeneous fashion.
                          <br>
                          <br>
                          This draft is intended to focus the discussion
                          and improve the wording.
                          <br>
                          <br>
                          Viele Grüße,
                          <br>
                          <br>
                          Henk
                          <br>
                          <br>
                          On 10/06/2018 08:23 AM, Laurence Lundblade
                          wrote:
                          <br>
                          <blockquote type="cite">Hi Henk,
                            <br>
                            <br>
                            Bangkok IETF is getting close, will you be
                            able to update the charter
                            <br>
                            for the attestation BoF to properly include
                            EAT?  I sent you some text
                            <br>
                            that just needs to be pasted along with some
                            comments. It doesn’t look
                            <br>
                            like there’s been any updates.
                            <br>
                            <br>
                            LL
                            <br>
                            <br>
                          </blockquote>
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From nobody Mon Oct 22 03:26:59 2018
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From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Device Identity (was Re: [EAT] [EXTERNAL] Re: Attestation BoF charter updates?)
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Hello Denis,

I have to admit that I disagree to some degree here. De facto, identity 
documents are used today as a basis for Attestation Provenance - they 
are either deployed with key material on things or they are requested 
based on key material.

That is not always the best solution, it is not a MUST, but it is a 
widely spread common method that we cannot ignore, I am afraid. That 
said, the deployment of key material or identity documents is 
out-of-scope of this phase for now ("may be subject to change"). We have 
to address "what has to be / can be" on the thing, though, in order to 
have a believable source for knowledge about Attestation Provenance.

Also, an IEEE 802.1AR DevID is an example of an identity document that 
is widely used and about device characteristics. I am aware that a lot 
of very... creative things have been done to x.509 in the last decades, 
some of them quite arcane. There might be better ways to address this... 
solution space, CoID is a first step into that direction.

Having said that, CoID is not intended to be a RATS WG document and I 
would very much like to address your general comments with respect to 
that draft - but not in this scope right now. Would that be okay?

Viele Grüße,

Henk



On 10/22/2018 12:01 PM, Denis wrote:
> Hello  Henk,
> 
> draft-birkholz-core-coid-00 states:*
> *
> 
>     **An identity document - a certificate - can be conveyed to other
>     system entities in order to prove the identity of the owner of the
>     identity document.
> 
> The wording "identity document" should not be used in the charter, since 
> the most important characteristic when using attestations is to be able 
> to know
> the characteristics of a device, i.e.that it operates as expected, does 
> what is required and does not do other (bad) things. Knowing the 
> identity of a device
> (e.g. the name of its manufacturer and a unique serial number given by 
> that manufacturer) may certainly be useful in some cases, but it is not 
> always necessary,
> nor desirable (e.g. because of privacy issues).

Very correct, this will be part of deliverable three. A few stakeholders 
argue that network equipment is not as prone to privacy requirements as 
would be a end-user device. The charter includes to address this topic, 
but is not intended to bias the outcome of an analysis.

> 
> draft-birkholz-core-coid-00 then states:
> 
>     "Trust in the proof can be established by mutual trust of the
>     provider and assessor of the identity in a third party verification
>     (TVP) provided,
>     for example, by a certificate authority (CA) or its subsidiaries
>     (sub CA)".

The mutual trust assumption is a tad bit more complex and I cannot go 
into detail right now, but we can and will address comments on this 
later due to start of moratorium at EoD.

> 
> A trust relationship is always unilateral : someone trusts somebody for 
> something. A reciprocity in a trust relationship is never implied.
> 
> A given device MAY disclose /more than one/ attestation, for example:
> 
>   * an attestation where only the characteristics of the device are
>     certified, or
>   * an attestation where both the characteristics of the device and the
>     manufacturer identity are certified, or
>   * an attestation where the characteristics of the device, the
>     manufacturer identity and a unique device serial number are certified.

This will eventually be part of the templates that are part of 
deliverable two.

> 
> Such a case could be modeled by using a sequence of three claims 
> included in the attestation, namely in that order :
> (1) the characteristics of the device, (2) the manufacturer identity and 
> (3) the device serial number which would be disclosed by the device
> to a verifier "when appropriate".
> 
> Another example: a given device MAY disclose /more than one/ attestation:
> 
>   * an attestation where only the characteristics of the hardware device
>     are certified, or
>   * an attestation where both the characteristics of the hardware device
>     and of the software running on top of that hardware device are
>     certified,
> 
> In the general case, an ordered set of claims or a SEQUENCE of claims 
> can be supported. This is currently not apparent on the current proposals.

Claim Semantics will be part of deliverable one (maybe two, due to 
architecture).

> 
> Denis

Viele Grüße,

Henk

> 
>> Hello Laurence,
>>
>> unfortunately, I am traveling at the moment, but let me try to address 
>> an eclectically chosen topic.
>>
>> In an attempt to answer your question "What is the definition of an 
>> “identity document” I will just reference
>>
>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-birkholz-core-coid-00#section-1
>>
>> for now (instead of writing a wall of text again. Sorry, if I do that 
>> sometimes, that does not always help...)
>>
>> Based on the reference text, the important principle here is that an 
>> identity document is signed using secret keys issued by a (sub) 
>> certificate authority that one or more entities *can* put trust into.
>>
>> In comparison, if a CWT is signed with key material deployed on the 
>> device in question, what you provide is proof-of-possession of that 
>> signing (most likely intended to be secret) key.
>>
>> Again, you *can* put trust into that proof-of-possession, but the 
>> trust relationships here can have vastly different semantics. In both 
>> cases though, putting trust into, for example, CoID (via TVP) or EAT 
>> (via PoP) is a decision, I think. If you choose to put trust into the 
>> signature of these CWT, both are Trusted Claim Sets - to you.
>>
>> This trust has unfortunately nothing to do with the actual 
>> trustworthiness of the thing in question. As Ned illustrated already, 
>> "in a closed ecosystem, the trust characteristics and properties may 
>> be implied". In consequence, if you choose to trust that possession of 
>> a key provides an appropriate level of confidence in trustworthiness - 
>> that is a decision you make.
>>
>> This does not provide actual evidence that a thing is really 
>> trustworthy. And providing this evidence via interoperable network 
>> protocols is the gap that RATS intent to address - not only in closed 
>> ecosystems, but also the Internet in general.
>>
>> IHTH,
>>
>> Henk
>>
>>
>> On 10/20/2018 08:19 AM, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>>> I consider /device identity/ an absolute critical part of our work. 
>>> It is a critical part of most EAT use cases such as enrollment of IoT 
>>> devices with IoT management systems. It is the first claim defined in 
>>> EAT.
>>>
>>> What is the definition of an “identity document”? Maybe you are 
>>> thinking of it specifically as what was defined for IEEE Dev ID. If I 
>>> recall, the identification claims for the device are in the subject 
>>> DN of an X.509 certificate.
>>>
>>> Seems like any EAT with an EUID in it could server well as an 
>>> identity document too. It provides signed, secured proof of the 
>>> identity of the device. It can include manufacturer info in addition 
>>> to the EUID. The EAT style identity could be as tiny as 150 bytes in 
>>> CBOR syntax. All you need to store on the device is the EUID and the 
>>> signing key. Maybe they are even deterministically KDF’d from the 
>>> same seed so you maybe you only need to store 32 bytes on the device.
>>>
>>> EAT’s mention of X.509 in 1.4.2 is as one of many ways to establish 
>>> key material so the remote / relying / verifying party can verify the 
>>> signature. So yes, I think you have it correct below. (Technically 
>>> speaking the private key associated with the X.509 cert is used to 
>>> sign, not the X.509 cert or keys in the cert. The X.509 is only to 
>>> help the verifier find and verify the verification key. You might 
>>> even have a means to get it from some service based on a key ID and 
>>> not even store it on the device).
>>>
>>> It is an EAT design goal to keep /all/ the claims in the signed 
>>> payload. That includes identity of the device, identity of the 
>>> manufacturer and so on. That way you can use many different signing 
>>> schemes (ECDAA, symmetric key, non-X.509 public key, X.509 pubic key, 
>>> simple public key with just a key id…) with the same claims.
>>>
>>> LL
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Oct 17, 2018, at 5:49 PM, Henk Birkholz 
>>>> <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de 
>>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Laurence,
>>>>
>>>> maybe I understand now where the general confusion is originating from.
>>>>
>>>> I dug through some parts of the EAT draft again and could it be that 
>>>> UIED are identifier and not an identities? They literally are claims 
>>>> (aka assertions) that can be signed as content of a CWT as 
>>>> illustrated in
>>>>
>>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mandyam-eat-00#section-1.4.2
>>>>
>>>> 1.4.2. talks about identity documents by mentioning "X.509 
>>>> certificate chains or something similar but different". But as you 
>>>> highlighted anything with regard to that is explicitly intended 
>>>> _not_ to go into the EAT claim set as content, but is stored on the 
>>>> thing (or maybe on a thing that signs "on behalf of" the thing the 
>>>> EAT is about?) and consequently is only used to potentially sign the 
>>>> EAT claim set (via COSE). Is that correct?
>>>>
>>>> As a result, an EAT would never be able to act as an identity 
>>>> document itself, but the key material that comes along with an x.509 
>>>> certificate (as one example of many highlighted) could be used to 
>>>> sign the EAT.
>>>>
>>>> RATS are able to use the "X.509 certificate chains or something 
>>>> similar but different" and the corresponding key material comes 
>>>> along with a certificate (as one example amongst others) to 
>>>> establish Attestation Provenance.
>>>>
>>>> Viele Grüße,
>>>>
>>>> Henk
>>>>
>>>> On 10/17/2018 01:19 PM, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>>>>> Wasn’t saying there was ambiguity in the TCG case. Not being a 
>>>>> TCGer, was just was trying to understand what the TCG definition is.
>>>>> Your mentioning 802.1AR DevID helps a lot as I have some knowledge 
>>>>> of it.
>>>>> I see now that my speculation about SW / config version was wrong. 
>>>>> That’s fine. I only wrote it to try to get to clarity.
>>>>> Thanks for help clarifying.
>>>>> In EAT, we defined a UEID for what TCGer’s mean by “identity":
>>>>>    UEID's identify individual manufactured entities / devices such 
>>>>> as a
>>>>>    mobile phone, a water meter, a Bluetooth speaker or a networked
>>>>>    security camera.  It may identify the entire device or a 
>>>>> submodule or
>>>>>    subsystem.  It does not identify types, models or classes of 
>>>>> devices.
>>>>>    It is akin to a serial number, though it does not have to be
>>>>>    sequential.
>>>>> See here 
>>>>> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-mandyam-eat-00#section-3.1> for 
>>>>> more on UEID.
>>>>> In EAT there is a strong desire to separate the signing key 
>>>>> material from UEID to have flexibility in the signing scheme. For 
>>>>> example FIDO and Android both have privacy-preserving schemes were 
>>>>> a signing key is shared by 100,000 devices. (Some use cases need 
>>>>> privacy, some don’t, perhaps because of legal agreements with 
>>>>> customers, and correlation between use cases and privacy schemes 
>>>>> can’t be counted on for high-volume devices like mobile phones).
>>>>> I don’t know what the right answer(s) is(are) in the design yet...
>>>>> LL
>>>>>> On Oct 17, 2018, at 4:26 PM, Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net 
>>>>>> <mailto:gfedorkow@juniper.net> <mailto:gfedorkow@juniper.net>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Laurence,
>>>>>>  I don't think there's ambiguity in the TCG case...  current work 
>>>>>> in attestation focuses on using the 802.1AR DevID spec, which 
>>>>>> corresponds exactly to one of your cases below -- it's a vendor, 
>>>>>> model and serial number.
>>>>>>  It's true that TCG technology can be used to validate software 
>>>>>> integrity, but that's hardly the same as identity.
>>>>>>  Considerations of user privacy commonly accepted in TCG would 
>>>>>> preclude the inclusion of software state as part of identity, 
>>>>>> practicalities aside.  In general, privacy considerations lead TCG 
>>>>>> to carefully avoid unauthorized disclosure of either software or 
>>>>>> hardware based assertions.
>>>>>>  Let me know if I'm missing the point...
>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>> /guy fedorkow, juniper networks
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com 
>>>>>> <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com> <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>>
>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2018 12:31 AM
>>>>>> To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de 
>>>>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> 
>>>>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>
>>>>>> Cc: Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com <mailto:ned.smith@intel.com> 
>>>>>> <mailto:ned.smith@intel.com>>; Hannes Tschofenig 
>>>>>> <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com <mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> 
>>>>>> <mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>>; rats@ietf.org 
>>>>>> <mailto:rats@ietf.org> <mailto:rats@ietf.org>; Jeremy O'Donoghue 
>>>>>> <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com <mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com> 
>>>>>> <mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>>; Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr 
>>>>>> <mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr> <mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr>>; 
>>>>>> eat@ietf.org <mailto:eat@ietf.org> <mailto:eat@ietf.org>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [EAT] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Rats] Attestation BoF charter 
>>>>>> updates?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think the TCG has a certain developed notion of identity that is 
>>>>>> different from others.  A way to get sharper about what a 
>>>>>> particular identity means is to describe the space and how the 
>>>>>> identifier selects in the space.  Here’s a few examples:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - The space is physical human beings with fingers. A fingerprint 
>>>>>> scanner select one of these humans. This is typical biometric auth.
>>>>>> - The space is humans that know a password. A password 
>>>>>> authenticator selects the humans that know the password. Typical 
>>>>>> authentication.
>>>>>> - The space is humans as legal entities / citizens with criminal 
>>>>>> records, passports and such. A national ID selects.
>>>>>> - The space is physical manufactured devices from one maker.  A 
>>>>>> serial number narrows it down to one physical device.
>>>>>> - The space is physical devices from one maker. A model number or 
>>>>>> version, narrows down to a subset of these devices.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My understanding of the TCG world is that identities goes beyond 
>>>>>> any of the above because they include things like the version of 
>>>>>> the SW and configuration of the device. The identity is largely a 
>>>>>> hash of an identifier of the physical device, various SW 
>>>>>> components and various configuration states.  The point being that 
>>>>>> a change in any of these is a change in the security 
>>>>>> characteristics of the device and if it was trusted with a 
>>>>>> particular key or particular data in the past, that trust should 
>>>>>> be revoked until re established.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - The space is physical devices from any maker
>>>>>>  + Measurement of the SW (the SW versions)
>>>>>>     + Measurements of some configuration
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Changing any of these change the identity of the device.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know I hardly need to ask, but TCG folks, did I describe this 
>>>>>> correctly?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So that said, many, perhaps most, use cases for EAT do not want 
>>>>>> this kind of device identity. It is not a prerequisite for 
>>>>>> trusting  claims coming from the device. In some cases this level 
>>>>>> of identity seems extremely disruptive as small SW upgrades could 
>>>>>> result in re enrollment of biometrics. We already are annoyed when 
>>>>>> we have to answer security questions when start using a service 
>>>>>> from a new device.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think this WG needs to address both this very tight TCG-style 
>>>>>> device identity and the more heuristic EAT-style 
>>>>>> claims-for-risk-engines. I could see multi-decade evolution where 
>>>>>> risk engine use cases want more and more of the tight TCG-style 
>>>>>> device identity as criminals become more adept at forging 
>>>>>> EAT-style claims. (Today risk engines work off of unsecured 
>>>>>> browser parameters).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Introduction in the charter seems entirely focused on the 
>>>>>> TCG-based identity use case. I think text should be added for 
>>>>>> EAT-style attestation. I will write some after some comments on 
>>>>>> this message.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> LL
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Oct 16, 2018, at 8:24 PM, Henk Birkholz 
>>>>>>> <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de 
>>>>>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> 
>>>>>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To quote Carsten, there is "the usual terminology problem about 
>>>>>>> identity".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Identifying vs. Identity brings back memories about an extensive 
>>>>>>> discussion in SACM that in the end resulted in using Profiles...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Profiles are the "things" that you can aggregate identity claims 
>>>>>>> in (in SACM these claims are "Target Endpoint Characteristics", 
>>>>>>> which are pretty much the same thing as Device Characteristics) - 
>>>>>>> and you use the Profiles to (re-)identify target endpoints.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In the scope of remote attestation procedures, I think that "just 
>>>>>>> not calling" claim sets that are composed (amongst others) of 
>>>>>>> identifying claims "identity documents" might just end up in 
>>>>>>> making up another name for something that is effectively 
>>>>>>> composing identity documents anyways. If calling the same thing 
>>>>>>> something else helps in some way, I am all for it. But I am 
>>>>>>> really not sure.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That said, Ned's elaboration on the relationship of identity and 
>>>>>>> attestation claims and corresponding claim semantics / trust 
>>>>>>> semantics is spot on, I think.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Viele Grüße,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Henk
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 10/16/2018 03:51 PM, Smith, Ned wrote:
>>>>>>>> Agree with Hannes that identity discussion can lead to confusion 
>>>>>>>> as identity is often highly dependent on some sort of context 
>>>>>>>> (domain of interpretation).
>>>>>>>> In order to have productive conversation about attestation and 
>>>>>>>> identity, it may be important to understand that attestation 
>>>>>>>> semantics sets the context for identity.
>>>>>>>> * Attestation attributes have trust semantics (and trust 
>>>>>>>> semantics are interpreted through the eyes of the verifier). 
>>>>>>>> Identity attributes may also have trust semantics (in addition 
>>>>>>>> to identity semantics) hence can be regarded as playing a role 
>>>>>>>> in both identity and attestation. Since RATS should be 
>>>>>>>> interested primarily in trust semantics, it makes sense to 
>>>>>>>> understand, discuss and consider identity in terms of its trust 
>>>>>>>> semantics. Hence identity attributes are only interesting to 
>>>>>>>> RATS if they are useful for evaluating trust semantics.
>>>>>>>> * In a closed ecosystem, the trust characteristics and 
>>>>>>>> properties may be implied because there often exists out-of-band 
>>>>>>>> processes that ensure the characteristics are applied (for 
>>>>>>>> example, if an IT organization sets a policy that all asymmetric 
>>>>>>>> keys are to be hardened using a smartcard, they can apply a 
>>>>>>>> deployment process where the IT professional verifies the 
>>>>>>>> smartcard is used during enrollment.) But in a non-closed 
>>>>>>>> ecosystem, there isn't an assumption that out-of-band processes 
>>>>>>>> exist. Attestation attempts to make explicit what otherwise is 
>>>>>>>> implicit and therefore subject to misinterpretation if the 
>>>>>>>> verifier, relying party and attester are not part of the same 
>>>>>>>> closed ecosystem. Implicit attestation therefore can lead to 
>>>>>>>> semantic confusion if we're not careful. Therefore, the rigor of 
>>>>>>>> treating implicit attestation claims (assertions assumed to 
>>>>>>>> exist but not explicitly named) should nevertheless be defined 
>>>>>>>> explicitly. Then, if there is a need for implicit attestation, 
>>>>>>>> the specifications that describe them can describe them in terms 
>>>>>>>> of an explicit definition.
>>>>>>>> * In the context of asserting trust characteristics, the 
>>>>>>>> verifier needs to know that a set of characteristics applies to 
>>>>>>>> the instance of the endpoint being evaluated (aka the attester). 
>>>>>>>> (Otherwise a MITM could supply characteristics that may be 
>>>>>>>> valid, but don’t apply to the specific instance). Consequently, 
>>>>>>>> it makes sense to consider that *attestation* keys are needed to 
>>>>>>>> authenticate the endpoint being evaluated. This doesn't imply an 
>>>>>>>> identity key couldn't double as an attestation key. But if it 
>>>>>>>> does, we care about its relevance to the attester endpoint.
>>>>>>>> -Ned
>>>>>>>> ﻿On 10/15/18, 6:49 PM, "Hannes Tschofenig" 
>>>>>>>> <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com <mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> 
>>>>>>>> <mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>    Here are my 5 cents on the term 'identity'.
>>>>>>>>         I have been working on identity management for many 
>>>>>>>> years (partially because of my OAuth co-chair role) and I have 
>>>>>>>> noticed that the use of the term "identity" tends to confuse 
>>>>>>>> more than it helps (even more so when the term is applied to 
>>>>>>>> devices and software rather than humans).
>>>>>>>>         I believe we could get away with describing what we want 
>>>>>>>> without ever using the term.
>>>>>>>>         In this context I would argue that we are about 
>>>>>>>> identifying different components, such as hardware and software.
>>>>>>>>         Ciao
>>>>>>>>    Hannes
>>>>>>>>         -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>    From: EAT <eat-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org> 
>>>>>>>> <mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf Of Smith, Ned
>>>>>>>>    Sent: Monday, October 15, 2018 9:00 AM
>>>>>>>>    To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de 
>>>>>>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> 
>>>>>>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>; rats@ietf.org 
>>>>>>>> <mailto:rats@ietf.org> <mailto:rats@ietf.org>; Jeremy O'Donoghue 
>>>>>>>> <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com <mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com> 
>>>>>>>> <mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>>; Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr 
>>>>>>>> <mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr> <mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr>>
>>>>>>>>    Cc: eat@ietf.org <mailto:eat@ietf.org> <mailto:eat@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>    Subject: Re: [EAT] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Rats] Attestation BoF 
>>>>>>>> charter updates?
>>>>>>>>         I agree with Henk's observation that there is 
>>>>>>>> opportunity to find common ground on identity as identity can be 
>>>>>>>> a collection of attributes, that if signed, becomes a set of 
>>>>>>>> verifiable claims (about identity attributes). Attestation has a 
>>>>>>>> similar structure in that it consists of a set of attributes, 
>>>>>>>> that if signed becomes a set of verifiable claims. The main 
>>>>>>>> difference between identity and attestation attributes is 
>>>>>>>> whether the attribute semantically relate to trust (vs. 
>>>>>>>> identity). For example, claims of security certification 
>>>>>>>> compliance resonates as attestation.
>>>>>>>>         It may be possible to combine a set of attestation 
>>>>>>>> attributes in such a way that the combination uniquely 
>>>>>>>> identifies an entity. But that doesn't make it an identity 
>>>>>>>> system per se and shouldn't cause a conflict in charter goals 
>>>>>>>> with respect to other identity focused efforts in IETF.
>>>>>>>>         Also, inclusion of attributes that don't have semantics 
>>>>>>>> that reasonably relate to trust should not be of interest to a 
>>>>>>>> working group focused on attestation.
>>>>>>>>         -Ned
>>>>>>>>         On 10/15/18, 3:53 PM, "EAT on behalf of Henk Birkholz" 
>>>>>>>> <eat-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org> 
>>>>>>>> <mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of 
>>>>>>>> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de 
>>>>>>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> 
>>>>>>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>             Hi Jeremy & Denis,
>>>>>>>>             all these points of view have merit, I think.
>>>>>>>>             Please have a look at these quotes:
>>>>>>>>> knowing the provenance of the device
>>>>>>>>> having the entity creator/manufacturer provide a set of claims 
>>>>>>>>> which can be verified
>>>>>>>>> to know the characteristics of a device by issuing to the 
>>>>>>>>> device a public key certificate which will only be issued to 
>>>>>>>>> the device if it fulfills an expected set of functionalities.
>>>>>>>>             To me, these descriptions seem to have different 
>>>>>>>> intents, scope or
>>>>>>>>        audience and require most certainly different work-flows, 
>>>>>>>> but
>>>>>>>>        semantically and in consequence representation-wise they 
>>>>>>>> also seem quite
>>>>>>>>        related.
>>>>>>>>             If you think of an identity document as a set of 
>>>>>>>> claims (potentially
>>>>>>>>        including a public key), that is signed and that can 
>>>>>>>> match one or more
>>>>>>>>        things, maybe all three types highlighted above are 
>>>>>>>> actually covered by
>>>>>>>>        the same identity document concept?
>>>>>>>>             With respect to identity documents, I think it is 
>>>>>>>> safe so say that we
>>>>>>>>        can find common ground here rather easily. That said, the 
>>>>>>>> way how these
>>>>>>>>        identity documents come into existence, when and how they 
>>>>>>>> are deployed
>>>>>>>>        on the thing or associated with multiple things is 
>>>>>>>> another question. We
>>>>>>>>        most certainly do not want to end up with a "signing 
>>>>>>>> fool" that does not
>>>>>>>>        add value to the level of confidence (I am quoting Ned 
>>>>>>>> Smith here).
>>>>>>>>             This has to be fleshed out explicitly for each 
>>>>>>>> scenario and the parts
>>>>>>>>        that are reused in every scenario should get special 
>>>>>>>> attention in the
>>>>>>>>        upcoming RATS architecture draft.
>>>>>>>>             Identifying claims aggregated in an identity 
>>>>>>>> document most certainly can
>>>>>>>>        include device characteristics, public key(s), or claims 
>>>>>>>> about the
>>>>>>>>        intended functions and capabilities of the thing. Claims 
>>>>>>>> can even
>>>>>>>>        originate from Claimants that are not the thing itself, 
>>>>>>>> but external
>>>>>>>>        entities providing an assertion (e.g. these things are 
>>>>>>>> CC-certified).
>>>>>>>>             All different composites of identifying claims have 
>>>>>>>> a specific shared
>>>>>>>>        intend in this context though, I think: expressing 
>>>>>>>> Attestation
>>>>>>>>        Provenance (again - one for one or more things of the 
>>>>>>>> same kind). And
>>>>>>>>        all of them originate from Claimants and therefore use a 
>>>>>>>> root of trust
>>>>>>>>        of measurement, I think.
>>>>>>>>             That said, establishing trustworthy knowledge about 
>>>>>>>> attestation
>>>>>>>>        provenance is only the first step and provides the 
>>>>>>>> foundation for more
>>>>>>>>        complex attestation procedures. In any case, this seem to 
>>>>>>>> be required by
>>>>>>>>        every scenario that was highlighted so far and therefore 
>>>>>>>> will most
>>>>>>>>        certainly be covered in a deliverable.
>>>>>>>>             IHTH,
>>>>>>>>             Henk
>>>>>>>>                  On 10/15/2018 12:22 PM, Jeremy O'Donoghue wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 12 Oct 2018, at 14:33, Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr 
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr> <mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr>
>>>>>>>>> <mailto:denis.ietf@free.fr>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> The "Problem Statement" continues as follows:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> (2) Today, there is no common, standard way for Relying 
>>>>>>>>>> Parties to
>>>>>>>>>> know the provenance and characteristics of a device (e.g., an 
>>>>>>>>>> end-user
>>>>>>>>>> device,
>>>>>>>>>> platform or endpoint, servers, IoT devices, device subsystems and
>>>>>>>>>> sub-modules) that may be requesting services.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Knowing the provenance of the device is not always necessary. 
>>>>>>>>>> What is
>>>>>>>>>> important is to know that a specific set of functions is 
>>>>>>>>>> (securely)
>>>>>>>>>> supported by the device.
>>>>>>>>>> There already exists a common way to know the characteristics 
>>>>>>>>>> of a
>>>>>>>>>> device by issuing to the device a public key certificate which 
>>>>>>>>>> will
>>>>>>>>>> only be issued to the device
>>>>>>>>>> if it fulfills an expected set of functionalities. In such a 
>>>>>>>>>> case a
>>>>>>>>>> syntax for a trusted claim sets**is not needed.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This is indeed a possible way to address the problem, but 
>>>>>>>>> suffers from
>>>>>>>>> challenges which come down to:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> - Who issues such certificates. An option is that there is some 
>>>>>>>>> form of
>>>>>>>>> security certification behind this issuance otherwise it is of 
>>>>>>>>> very
>>>>>>>>> limited value.
>>>>>>>>> - In order to capture the wide variety of different devices (I 
>>>>>>>>> prefer
>>>>>>>>> "entity" here as it is more general than "device"), many 
>>>>>>>>> different forms
>>>>>>>>> of such certificates would be required. This ends up being much 
>>>>>>>>> the same
>>>>>>>>> thing as a set of claims.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Given the multiplicity of entities for which attestation might be
>>>>>>>>> useful, it seems to me that having the entity creator/manufacturer
>>>>>>>>> provide a set of claims which can be verified is more flexible 
>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>> requiring a certificate. It seems likely to me that where a formal
>>>>>>>>> security certification is needed there will be a certificate 
>>>>>>>>> issued by
>>>>>>>>> the Certifying Body as one of the claims about an entity, but I 
>>>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>>>> think of many cases (supply chain management, to take just one 
>>>>>>>>> example)
>>>>>>>>> where provenance is by far the most useful information.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm not in favour of changes to the charter in this direction.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The simplest cases should also be part of the framework.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Note: I personally appreciate that privacy is an aspect that
>>>>>>>>>> will/should be taken into consideration.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Denis
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> As with the earlier draft, there are many references to 
>>>>>>>>>>> verify and
>>>>>>>>>>> verifier in the lead up to the deliverable but no 
>>>>>>>>>>> deliverables describing
>>>>>>>>>>> verification rules. I'd like to see rules in one of these 
>>>>>>>>>>> documents and
>>>>>>>>>>> think it worth citing in the deliverables. Are bindings to 
>>>>>>>>>>> certificate
>>>>>>>>>>> management protocols out of scope?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/11/18, 9:49 AM, "RATS on behalf of Henk Birkholz"
>>>>>>>>>>> <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org> 
>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of 
>>>>>>>>>>> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de 
>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> 
>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>  wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> sorry for the delay. Please find an updated charter proposal 
>>>>>>>>>>>> here:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__github.com_ietf-2Drats_charter_blob_RC2_ietf-2Drats-2Dcharter.md&d=DwIFaQ&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=sebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&m=p5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&s=rPzmwhcwy8eob4eMiwWzDg5DY-mcC5HYgQqhUGCZ2RI&e= 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The BoF proponents tried to merge all comments and proposals on
>>>>>>>>>>>> keystores, existing solutions, provenance & device 
>>>>>>>>>>>> characteristics, etc
>>>>>>>>>>>> that were raised on the list - and align them in homogeneous 
>>>>>>>>>>>> fashion.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> This draft is intended to focus the discussion and improve 
>>>>>>>>>>>> the wording.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Viele Grüße,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Henk
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/06/2018 08:23 AM, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Henk,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bangkok IETF is getting close, will you be able to update 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the charter
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the attestation BoF to properly include EAT?  I sent 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> you some text
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that just needs to be pasted along with some comments. It 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn’t look
>>>>>>>>>>>>> like there’s been any updates.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> LL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>> RATS mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>>> RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org> <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_rats&d=DwIFaQ&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=sebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&m=p5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&s=xThsQTXgadltVkHTYpOWknadi7puxZt8O6XOIUm_bzo&e= 
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> EAT mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> EAT@ietf.org <mailto:EAT@ietf.org> <mailto:EAT@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_eat&d=DwIFaQ&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=sebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&m=p5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&s=N7kKkDdCvl_MNmB3Guyg9HC-kQnMrX1cP5w44SbDsAw&e= 
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> EAT mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> EAT@ietf.org <mailto:EAT@ietf.org> <mailto:EAT@ietf.org> 
>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:EAT@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_eat&d=DwIFaQ&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=sebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&m=p5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&s=N7kKkDdCvl_MNmB3Guyg9HC-kQnMrX1cP5w44SbDsAw&e= 
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> EAT mailing list
>>>>>>>>> EAT@ietf.org <mailto:EAT@ietf.org> <mailto:EAT@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_eat&d=DwIFaQ&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=sebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&m=p5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&s=N7kKkDdCvl_MNmB3Guyg9HC-kQnMrX1cP5w44SbDsAw&e= 
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>             _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>        EAT mailing list
>>>>>>>> EAT@ietf.org <mailto:EAT@ietf.org> <mailto:EAT@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_eat&d=DwIFaQ&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=sebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&m=p5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&s=N7kKkDdCvl_MNmB3Guyg9HC-kQnMrX1cP5w44SbDsAw&e= 
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>              _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>    EAT mailing list
>>>>>>>> EAT@ietf.org <mailto:EAT@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_eat&d=DwIFaQ&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=sebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&m=p5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&s=N7kKkDdCvl_MNmB3Guyg9HC-kQnMrX1cP5w44SbDsAw&e= 
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>    IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any 
>>>>>>>> attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you 
>>>>>>>> are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender 
>>>>>>>> immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other 
>>>>>>>> person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information 
>>>>>>>> in any medium. Thank you.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> EAT mailing list
>>>>>>> EAT@ietf.org <mailto:EAT@ietf.org> <mailto:EAT@ietf.org>
>>>>>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_eat&d=DwIFaQ&c=HAkYuh63rsuhr6Scbfh0UjBXeMK-ndb3voDTXcWzoCI&r=sebUyXCidr_CEuZObmOub9NX0cE_5cRieGL_7VXhmfk&m=p5eO1iMTXM4ZfeXvFBU57-xCILnJh-EOaxl5AUwyWGM&s=N7kKkDdCvl_MNmB3Guyg9HC-kQnMrX1cP5w44SbDsAw&e= 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> EAT mailing list
>>>>>> EAT@ietf.org <mailto:EAT@ietf.org> <mailto:EAT@ietf.org>
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> EAT mailing list
>>>> EAT@ietf.org <mailto:EAT@ietf.org>
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat
>>>
> 


From nobody Mon Oct 22 04:46:31 2018
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From: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
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Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 13:46:00 +0200
Cc: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, "Jeremy O'Donoghue" <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>
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References: <5D773C02-5083-4B10-A705-782E28FD8ADB@island-resort.com> <f84515dd-2e1a-7e66-7c23-b16f8f425d2a@sit.fraunhofer.de> <D7E5069D.C2E65%carl@redhoundsoftware.com> <c72a3b6c-88f2-d452-96be-947a4be1d9c8@free.fr> <73EF502E-B68C-4106-8311-4897B4F2DF8C@qti.qualcomm.com> <b6c9ff4a-cc35-8175-3294-4e6ec366409f@sit.fraunhofer.de> <615BB1D3-29E3-468B-B988-84852F47742C@intel.com> <VI1PR0801MB211230882A5B0D594D66DCFDFAFD0@VI1PR0801MB2112.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com> <71A01CDA-380F-4A57-B601-02F9A2699471@intel.com> <6f28e6a4-1930-84b2-1399-8aed75e3a6b4@sit.fraunhofer.de> <FB52EAA1-21F9-4792-B6A2-B58BBFBB53D6@island-resort.com> <BN7PR05MB4097DAA623B0F77573982910BAFF0@BN7PR05MB4097.namprd05.prod.outlook.com> <04976C31-F18C-4F99-847D-110641DCDE80@island-resort.com> <9c73f9b7-9129-c273-254e-465f92ab3650@sit.fraunhofer.de> <09818298-9FE1-430A-8045-A9A7E76ED64C@island-resort.com> <aaf49ef2-d161-aa9d-7b8a-fd852c5806c4@sit.fraunhofer.de> <92abc587-6657-dcad-1222-611d5e8b78af@free.fr>
To: Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT] Device Identity (was Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Attestation BoF charter updates?)
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On Oct 22, 2018, at 12:01, Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr> wrote:
>=20
> The wording "identity document" should not be used in the charter, =
since the most important characteristic when using attestations is to be =
able to know=20
> the characteristics of a device, i.e. that it operates as expected, =
does what is required and does not do other (bad) things. Knowing the =
identity of a device=20
> (e.g. the name of its manufacturer and a unique serial number given by =
that manufacturer) may certainly be useful in some cases, but it is not =
always necessary,=20
> nor desirable (e.g. because of privacy issues).

Henk forecasted that I would say =E2=80=9Cthe usual identity =
confusion=E2=80=9D earlier=E2=80=A6

This is indeed the usual identity confusion.

RFC 4949 says:

   $ identity
      (I) The collective aspect of a set of attribute values (i.e., a
      set of characteristics) by which a system user or other system
      entity is recognizable or known. (See: authenticate, registration.
      Compare: identifier.)

In other words: A set of claims.

When I buy cigarettes from a vending machine in Germany (I don=E2=80=99t, =
so please excuse inaccuracies), it needs an identity document with =
exactly one claim on it:  age =E2=89=A5 18 years.  For a cash buyer, =
that is the entire identity the vending machine cares about.  =
(Obviously, the asserter of that claim needs to be authorized to do so =
by the operator of a vending machine =E2=80=94 that set of =
authorizations is probably something that is honed by a procession of =
court cases.)

Since even the identity of the entity authorized to make a claim may be =
subject to privacy, the actual identity may be mixed together through a =
number of verification services.  It is useful to have a protocol that =
can be used to convey identities through such a mixer; the actual =
relying party may not need to understand much about what is happening as =
long as it trusts the verification services.  Or, in the above example, =
the vending machine may use a claim from a bank card that I=E2=80=99m =
=E2=89=A5 18yo, without understanding how the bank came to that =
conclusion.

Maybe we should replace the term =E2=80=9Cidentity=E2=80=9D with =E2=80=9C=
set of claims useful for recognizing something or somebody=E2=80=9D, =
hmm, SOCUFRSOS?  =E2=80=9CIdentity=E2=80=9D might be easier to say.

I=E2=80=99m not sure I understand the part about SEQUENCE =E2=80=94 I =
don=E2=80=99t see any (ordered) sequences in the rest of your message.
What I do see is claims that have different kinds; and that is of course =
important.  It is also sometimes important that we can have multiple =
claims of the same kind, something that JWTs are not very good at yet =
(we could fix that in CWT).

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


From nobody Mon Oct 22 06:14:42 2018
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From: Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>
To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [EAT] Attestation BoF charter updates?
Thread-Index: AQHUaDl7oJCVy1SmWEy2j20ofanQ0qUrIFoA
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2018 13:14:30 +0000
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References: <5D773C02-5083-4B10-A705-782E28FD8ADB@island-resort.com> <f84515dd-2e1a-7e66-7c23-b16f8f425d2a@sit.fraunhofer.de> <3347AA26-3FA1-4067-8378-51B533BA77FB@island-resort.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT] Attestation BoF charter updates?
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From: Marcus Streets <Marcus.Streets@arm.com>
To: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>, Denis <denis.ietf@free.fr>
CC: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net>, Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>
Thread-Topic: [EAT] Device Identity (was Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Rats] Attestation BoF charter updates?)
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From nobody Mon Oct 22 14:02:09 2018
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT] Attestation BoF charter updates?
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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain


Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com> wrote:
    > This is a very useful contribution, Laurence.

    > The current draft text is too strongly biased towards attestation based
    > on measurement, and does not adequately cover other mechanisms which
    > are already

But, it's for the charter, for the WG, it's not a treatise on attestation
itself.

This is all supposed to be *meta* text about attestation, about what we want
to say about attestation in the documents, not about what attestation is.

Please go read some other IETF charters:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/6lo/about/
https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/6tisch/about/
https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/suit/about/

Notice how by about the second paragraph (6tisch takes a bit longer), each
gets into what the WG will do?

--
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 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-

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From nobody Mon Oct 22 14:17:32 2018
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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain


Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> wrote:
    > I am missing a "Here is the problem we are solving and this is why we
    > will make the Internet work better" presentation.

+1.

Background material is welcome, but I'm not seeing a charter.
I keep seeing introductory text that belongs in an overview, roadmap or
requirements document (but I don't know which, because the charter hasn't
told me how we are running things)

Also, I don't know how eat@ and rats@ differ, so maybe we can just get rid of
one of these lists?

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From nobody Mon Oct 22 14:36:05 2018
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> Background material is welcome, but I=E2=80=99m not seeing a charter.

One problem with writing a charter in an area without accepted =
terminology is that you need a source of that terminology.
The IESG generally frowns upon a WG defining the terminology used in the =
charter in an I-D, as this means the WG can change the meaning of the =
charter unilaterally.  So there is a need for some terminology =
definitions, more than usually in a charter.

> I keep seeing introductory text that belongs in an overview, roadmap =
or
> requirements document (but I don't know which, because the charter =
hasn't
> told me how we are running things)

Now that looks like a problem, indeed.

> Also, I don=E2=80=99t know how eat@ and rats@ differ,

EAT is one technical approach (put claim sets into CWTs), which I like. =20=

RATS has some additional requirements that are harder to do in a CWT (of =
course, anything can be packaged in a CWT if you really want =E2=80=94 =
RATS is really more about workflows that involve evidence and tend to be =
more complicated than just signing a few CWTs and checking those =
signatures).

> so maybe we can just get rid of
> one of these lists?

Whenever we know the name of the new WG, we can get rid of both.

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


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From: Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>
To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [EAT] [Rats]  Attestation BoF charter updates?
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On 22 Oct 2018, at 22:01, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca<mailto:=
mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>> wrote:


Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com<mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.c=
om>> wrote:
This is a very useful contribution, Laurence.

The current draft text is too strongly biased towards attestation based
on measurement, and does not adequately cover other mechanisms which
are already

But, it's for the charter, for the WG, it's not a treatise on attestation
itself.

This is all supposed to be *meta* text about attestation, about what we wan=
t
to say about attestation in the documents, not about what attestation is.

Please go read some other IETF charters:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/6lo/about/
https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/6tisch/about/
https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/suit/about/

Fair comment.

We have two existing proposals - EAT and RATS - which address a similar pro=
blem space but using different mechanisms. While I believe the RATS and EAT=
 contributors are in broad agreement that there is significant benefit in b=
ringing both work streams under a single umbrella, trying to properly incor=
porate EAT through incremental modification to the draft RATS WG charter te=
xt is proving challenging.

The below probably diverges too far from the current text for some tastes, =
but it may address your point and provide a basis for discussion (at this p=
oint the GitHub draft<https://github.com/ietf-rats/charter/blob/RC2/ietf-ra=
ts-charter.md> seems a long way behind the list). It is deliberately signif=
icantly shorter than the current draft - I have tried to re-use as much exi=
sting text as possible, but it is heavily re-organised and abridged.

I have taken on board the comment from Carsten that perhaps a minimum level=
 of terminology is acceptable in charter text, but deliberately tried to ke=
ep the language simple and fairly generic to enable the proper work of term=
inology definition to take place in the requirements document as you sugges=
t.


Introduction

------------

Remote attestation procedures can be incorporated in network protocols to
provide the basis for establishing claims about an entity in a trustworthy
manner. Such claims may include, but are not limited to, device identity,
manufacturing origin, system integrity, configuration, operational state an=
d
measurements of steps which led to the operational state. Such procedures
expose entity characteristics in the form of claim sets which allow remote
parties to establish the trustworthiness of a device, provide evidence that=
 a
particular set of operations and functions are supported and/or that the
entity is actually what it claims to be.

In the absence of such procedures, while domain-specific attestation
mechanisms such as TCG TPM, FIDO Alliance attestation and Android Keystore
attestation exist, there is no common way for a remote party to tell if dat=
a
originates from a trustworthy device (e.g. a Trusted System designed to
support a specific set of operations/functionalities) or not.

The following minimal terminology is defined for the purposes of clarifying=
 the
Working Group charter text:

- attestation: a set of claims which can be verified as originating in an
          entity.

- claim:  as defined in RFC7519.

- entity: a device or device sub-module that can generate a claim or set of
          claims which can be verified by a remote party.

- remote party: an actor remote from an entity that wishes to verify whethe=
r
          a claim or set of claims originated in a given entity.

Description of the Working Group

--------------------------------

The Working Group will define:

- Standardized and interoperable mechanisms to establish a sufficient level
  of confidence that data originates from a trustworthy entity designed to
  support a specific set of operations/functionalities.
- Standardized and interoperable mechanisms building on (1) to allow remote
  parties to know the provenance and characteristics of an entity that may =
be
  requesting services.

The Working Group will identify security goals which it expects a trustwort=
hy
execution context to address, which will assume the presence of Roots of
Trust (as defined by NIST [SP800-164]). The detailed specification of such
contexts is out of scope.

The Working Group will maintain close relationships with bodies undertaking
complementary work streams in the area of remote attestation such as
GlobalPlatform, Trusted Computing Group and FIDO Alliance.

The Working Group will cooperate with the TEEP Working Group, which may
generate requirements for claims relevant to TEE.


Work Items

----------

The Working Group will develop specifications supporting the creation of
interoperable remote attestation procedures for entities which incorporate
Roots of Trust. The main deliverables are as follows.

- Produce a requirements document establishing a common vocabulary for remo=
te
  attestation, identifying mechanisms which will be supported for establish=
ing
  trust between an entity and a remote party, and enumerating sample use-ca=
ses
  for remote attestation.

- Produce specification text defining interoperable cross-platform claims w=
hich
  provide information about an entity in support of the required use-cases,=
 and
  extending the set of claims defined in RFC7519 and RFC8392. The specifica=
tion
  will describe the syntax for each claim in at least the following formats=
:
    - CBOR [RFC7049]
    - JSON [RFC7159]
    - YANG [RFC6020]

- Produce specification text defining procedures and corresponding architec=
tures
  supporting verification of claims within an attestation based on measured=
 file
  execution procedures and supporting:
    - Explicit attestation wherein a set of claims is transported in the at=
testation;
    - Implicit attestation wherein a set of claims is implied by possession=
 of a secret.

- Produce specification text defining procedures and corresponding architec=
tures
  supporting verification of claims encapsulated in:

    - CBOR Web Token structures [RFC8392]
    - JSON Web Token structures [RFC7519]

- Perform privacy analysis of both claims and the cryptographic procedures =
used to
  establish trust. This information will be included as appropriate in the
  deliverable specifications, and may imply extension of procedures defined=
 in
  other specifications in support of privacy goals.

It seems to me that there are two ways to produce the main specification de=
liverables. I have deliberately left the text above slightly vague on this.

  *   A claims specification common to RATS and EAT with separate RATS and =
EAT procedure specifications.
  *   A claims specification also incorporating EAT procedures and a separa=
te RATS procedure specification. This would be my preferred option.
     *   I believe there are very few procedures needed for EAT other than =
the possible need to support a nonce to ensure freshness

Jeremy

Notice how by about the second paragraph (6tisch takes a bit longer), each
gets into what the WG will do?

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca<mailto:mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>>, S=
andelman Software Works
-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
_______________________________________________
EAT mailing list
EAT@ietf.org<mailto:EAT@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat


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<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii"=
>
</head>
<body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break:=
 after-white-space;" class=3D"">
On 22 Oct 2018, at 22:01, Michael Richardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr&#43;=
ietf@sandelman.ca" class=3D"">mcr&#43;ietf@sandelman.ca</a>&gt; wrote:<br c=
lass=3D"">
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline=
">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
Jeremy O'Donoghue &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com" class=3D=
"">jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">This is a very useful contribution, La=
urence.<br class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<br class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">The current draft text is too strongly=
 biased towards attestation based<br class=3D"">
on measurement, and does not adequately cover other mechanisms which<br cla=
ss=3D"">
are already<br class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<br class=3D"">
But, it's for the charter, for the WG, it's not a treatise on attestation<b=
r class=3D"">
itself.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
This is all supposed to be *meta* text about attestation, about what we wan=
t<br class=3D"">
to say about attestation in the documents, not about what attestation is.<b=
r class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
Please go read some other IETF charters:<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/6lo/about/" class=3D"">https://d=
atatracker.ietf.org/wg/6lo/about/</a><br class=3D"">
https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/6tisch/about/<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/suit/about/" class=3D"">https://=
datatracker.ietf.org/wg/suit/about/</a><br class=3D"">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div>Fair comment.</div>
<div><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div>We have two existing proposals - EAT and RATS - which address a simila=
r problem space but using different mechanisms. While I believe the RATS an=
d EAT contributors are in broad agreement that there is significant benefit=
 in bringing both work streams under
 a single umbrella, trying to properly incorporate EAT through incremental =
modification to the draft RATS WG charter text is proving challenging.</div=
>
<div><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div>The below probably diverges too far from the current text for some tas=
tes, but it may address your point and provide a basis for discussion (at t=
his point the&nbsp;<a href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-rats/charter/blob/RC2=
/ietf-rats-charter.md" class=3D"">GitHub
 draft</a>&nbsp;seems a long way behind the list). It is deliberately signi=
ficantly shorter than the current draft - I have tried to re-use as much ex=
isting text as possible, but it is heavily re-organised and abridged.</div>
<div><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div>I have taken on board the comment from Carsten that perhaps a minimum =
level of terminology is acceptable in charter text, but deliberately tried =
to keep the language simple and fairly generic to enable the proper work of=
 terminology definition to take
 place in the requirements document as you suggest.</div>
<div><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div>
<p style=3D"margin: 2px 0px; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 11px; line-he=
ight: normal; font-family: Courier;" class=3D"">
Introduction</p>
<p style=3D"margin: 2px 0px; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 11px; line-he=
ight: normal; font-family: Courier;" class=3D"">
------------</p>
<p style=3D"margin: 2px 0px; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 11px; line-he=
ight: normal; font-family: Courier;" class=3D"">
Remote attestation procedures can be incorporated in network protocols to<b=
r class=3D"">
provide the basis for establishing claims about an entity in a trustworthy<=
br class=3D"">
manner. Such claims may include, but are not limited to, device identity,<b=
r class=3D"">
manufacturing origin, system integrity, configuration, operational state an=
d<br class=3D"">
measurements of steps which led to the operational state. Such procedures<b=
r class=3D"">
expose entity characteristics in the form of claim sets which allow remote<=
br class=3D"">
parties to establish the trustworthiness of a device, provide evidence that=
 a<br class=3D"">
particular set of operations and functions are supported and/or that the<br=
 class=3D"">
entity is actually what it claims to be.&nbsp;</p>
<p style=3D"margin: 2px 0px; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 11px; line-he=
ight: normal; font-family: Courier;" class=3D"">
In the absence of such procedures, while domain-specific attestation<br cla=
ss=3D"">
mechanisms such as TCG TPM, FIDO Alliance attestation and Android Keystore<=
br class=3D"">
attestation exist, there is no common way for a remote party to tell if dat=
a<br class=3D"">
originates from a trustworthy device (e.g. a Trusted System designed to<br =
class=3D"">
support a specific set of operations/functionalities) or not.</p>
<p style=3D"margin: 2px 0px; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 11px; line-he=
ight: normal; font-family: Courier;" class=3D"">
The following minimal terminology is defined for the purposes of clarifying=
 the<br class=3D"">
Working Group charter text:</p>
<p style=3D"margin: 2px 0px; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 11px; line-he=
ight: normal; font-family: Courier;" class=3D"">
- attestation: a set of claims which can be verified as originating in an<b=
r class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; entity.</p>
<p style=3D"margin: 2px 0px; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 11px; line-he=
ight: normal; font-family: Courier;" class=3D"">
- claim:&nbsp; as defined in RFC7519.</p>
<p style=3D"margin: 2px 0px; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 11px; line-he=
ight: normal; font-family: Courier;" class=3D"">
- entity: a device or device sub-module that can generate a claim or set of=
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; claims which can be verified by a remote=
 party.</p>
<p style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 12px; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 11px; li=
ne-height: normal; font-family: Courier;" class=3D"">
- remote party: an actor remote from an entity that wishes to verify whethe=
r<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; a claim or set of claims originated in a=
 given entity.</p>
<p style=3D"margin: 2px 0px; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 11px; line-he=
ight: normal; font-family: Courier;" class=3D"">
Description of the Working Group</p>
<p style=3D"margin: 2px 0px; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 11px; line-he=
ight: normal; font-family: Courier;" class=3D"">
--------------------------------</p>
<p style=3D"margin: 2px 0px; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 11px; line-he=
ight: normal; font-family: Courier;" class=3D"">
The Working Group will define:</p>
<p style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 12px; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 11px; li=
ne-height: normal; font-family: Courier;" class=3D"">
- Standardized and interoperable mechanisms to establish a sufficient level=
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; of confidence that data originates from a trustworthy entity designe=
d to<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; support a specific set of operations/functionalities.<br class=3D"">
- Standardized and interoperable mechanisms building on (1) to allow remote=
<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; parties to know the provenance and characteristics of an entity that=
 may be<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; requesting services.</p>
<p style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 12px; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 11px; li=
ne-height: normal; font-family: Courier;" class=3D"">
The Working Group will identify security goals which it expects a trustwort=
hy<br class=3D"">
execution context to address, which will assume the presence of Roots of<br=
 class=3D"">
Trust (as defined by NIST [SP800-164]). The detailed specification of such<=
br class=3D"">
contexts is out of scope.</p>
<p style=3D"margin: 2px 0px; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 11px; line-he=
ight: normal; font-family: Courier;" class=3D"">
The Working Group will maintain close relationships with bodies undertaking=
<br class=3D"">
complementary work streams in the area of remote attestation such as<br cla=
ss=3D"">
GlobalPlatform, Trusted Computing Group and FIDO Alliance.</p>
<p style=3D"margin: 2px 0px; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 11px; line-he=
ight: normal; font-family: Courier;" class=3D"">
The Working Group will cooperate with the TEEP Working Group, which may<br =
class=3D"">
generate requirements for claims relevant to TEE.</p>
<p style=3D"margin: 2px 0px; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 11px; line-he=
ight: normal; font-family: Courier; min-height: 13px;" class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
</p>
<p style=3D"margin: 2px 0px; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 11px; line-he=
ight: normal; font-family: Courier;" class=3D"">
Work Items</p>
<p style=3D"margin: 2px 0px; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 11px; line-he=
ight: normal; font-family: Courier;" class=3D"">
----------</p>
<p style=3D"margin: 2px 0px; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 11px; line-he=
ight: normal; font-family: Courier;" class=3D"">
The Working Group will develop specifications supporting the creation of<br=
 class=3D"">
interoperable remote attestation procedures for entities which incorporate&=
nbsp;<br class=3D"">
Roots of Trust. The main deliverables are as follows.&nbsp;</p>
<p style=3D"margin: 2px 0px; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 11px; line-he=
ight: normal; font-family: Courier;" class=3D"">
- Produce a requirements document establishing a common vocabulary for remo=
te<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; attestation, identifying mechanisms which will be supported for esta=
blishing<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; trust between an entity and a remote party, and enumerating sample u=
se-cases<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; for remote attestation.</p>
<p style=3D"margin: 2px 0px; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 11px; line-he=
ight: normal; font-family: Courier;" class=3D"">
- Produce specification text defining interoperable cross-platform claims w=
hich<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; provide information about an entity in support of the required use-c=
ases, and<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; extending the set of claims defined in RFC7519 and RFC8392. The spec=
ification<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; will describe the syntax for each claim in at least the following fo=
rmats:<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; - CBOR [RFC7049]<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; - JSON [RFC7159]<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; - YANG [RFC6020]</p>
<p style=3D"margin: 2px 0px; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 11px; line-he=
ight: normal; font-family: Courier;" class=3D"">
- Produce specification text defining procedures and corresponding architec=
tures<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; supporting verification of claims within an attestation based on mea=
sured file<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; execution procedures and supporting:<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; - Explicit attestation wherein a set of claims is transported=
 in the attestation;<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; - Implicit attestation wherein a set of claims is implied by =
possession of a secret.</p>
<p style=3D"margin: 2px 0px; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 11px; line-he=
ight: normal; font-family: Courier;" class=3D"">
- Produce specification text defining procedures and corresponding architec=
tures<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; supporting verification of claims encapsulated in:</p>
<p style=3D"margin: 2px 0px; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 11px; line-he=
ight: normal; font-family: Courier;" class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; - CBOR Web Token structures [RFC8392]<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; - JSON Web Token structures [RFC7519]</p>
<p style=3D"margin: 2px 0px; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 11px; line-he=
ight: normal; font-family: Courier;" class=3D"">
- Perform privacy analysis of both claims and the cryptographic procedures =
used to<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; establish trust. This information will be included as appropriate in=
 the<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; deliverable specifications, and may imply extension of procedures de=
fined in<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; other specifications in support of privacy goals.</p>
</div>
<div><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div>It seems to me that there are two ways to produce the main specificati=
on deliverables. I have deliberately left the text above slightly vague on =
this.</div>
<div>
<ul class=3D"MailOutline">
<li class=3D"">A claims specification common to RATS and EAT with separate =
RATS and EAT procedure specifications.</li><li class=3D"">A claims specific=
ation also incorporating EAT procedures and a separate RATS procedure speci=
fication. This would be my preferred option.
<ul class=3D"">
<li class=3D"">I believe there are very few procedures needed for EAT other=
 than the possible need to support a nonce to ensure freshness</li></ul>
</li></ul>
</div>
<div><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div>Jeremy</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
Notice how by about the second paragraph (6tisch takes a bit longer), each<=
br class=3D"">
gets into what the WG will do?<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
--<br class=3D"">
Michael Richardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr&#43;IETF@sandelman.ca" class=
=3D"">mcr&#43;IETF@sandelman.ca</a>&gt;, Sandelman Software Works<br class=
=3D"">
-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-<br class=3D"">
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">
EAT mailing list<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"mailto:EAT@ietf.org" class=3D"">EAT@ietf.org</a><br class=3D"">
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat<br class=3D"">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class=3D"">
</body>
</html>

--_000_46150D6797E7457F9C8BD2B3060978CAqtiqualcommcom_--


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Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 11:14:59 -0400
From: Carl Wallace <carl@redhoundsoftware.com>
To: Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: [Rats] [EAT]   Attestation BoF charter updates?
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT]   Attestation BoF charter updates?
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> 
> <snip>
> 
> Work Items
> 
> ----------
> 
> The Working Group will develop specifications supporting the creation of
> interoperable remote attestation procedures for entities which incorporate
> Roots of Trust. The main deliverables are as follows.
> 
> - Produce a requirements document establishing a common vocabulary for remote
>   attestation, identifying mechanisms which will be supported for establishing
>   trust between an entity and a remote party, and enumerating sample use-cases
>   for remote attestation.
> 
> - Produce specification text defining interoperable cross-platform claims
> which
>   provide information about an entity in support of the required use-cases,
> and
>   extending the set of claims defined in RFC7519 and RFC8392. The
> specification
>   will describe the syntax for each claim in at least the following formats:
>     - CBOR [RFC7049]
>     - JSON [RFC7159]
>     - YANG [RFC6020]

[CW] ASN.1 is already player for a number of attestation formats. Any reason
to exclude it?

> - Produce specification text defining procedures and corresponding
> architectures
>   supporting verification of claims within an attestation based on measured
> file
>   execution procedures and supporting:
>     - Explicit attestation wherein a set of claims is transported in the
> attestation;
>     - Implicit attestation wherein a set of claims is implied by possession of
> a secret.
> 
> - Produce specification text defining procedures and corresponding
> architectures
>   supporting verification of claims encapsulated in:
> 
>     - CBOR Web Token structures [RFC8392]
>     - JSON Web Token structures [RFC7519]

[CW] As noted before, I'd like to see binding to certificate enrollment
protocols included here as well. This is something we are doing today,
without standards grounding (as illustrated in pile of attestations shared
via Github a few weeks back).

> - Perform privacy analysis of both claims and the cryptographic procedures
> used to
>   establish trust. This information will be included as appropriate in the
>   deliverable specifications, and may imply extension of procedures defined in
>   other specifications in support of privacy goals.
> 
> 
> It seems to me that there are two ways to produce the main specification
> deliverables. I have deliberately left the text above slightly vague on this.
> * A claims specification common to RATS and EAT with separate RATS and EAT
> procedure specifications.
> * A claims specification also incorporating EAT procedures and a separate RATS
> procedure specification. This would be my preferred option.
>> * I believe there are very few procedures needed for EAT other than the
>> possible need to support a nonce to ensure freshness
> 
> Jeremy
>> 
>> Notice how by about the second paragraph (6tisch takes a bit longer), each
>> gets into what the WG will do?
>> 
>> --
>> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
>> -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-
>> _______________________________________________
>> EAT mailing list
>> EAT@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat
> 
> _______________________________________________ RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats



--B_3623138104_16942883
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<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: s=
pace; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size:=
 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION"><b=
lockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"padding: 0px 0px 0p=
x 5px; margin: 0px 0px 0px 5px;"><div><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -we=
bkit-nbsp-mode: space;" class=3D""><div><div><p style=3D"margin: 2px 0px; font-s=
tretch: normal; line-height: normal; min-height: 13px;" class=3D""><br><font f=
ace=3D"Calibri,sans-serif">&lt;snip&gt;</font></p><p style=3D"font-family: Couri=
er; font-size: 11px; margin: 2px 0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: nor=
mal;" class=3D"">
Work Items</p><p style=3D"font-family: Courier; font-size: 11px; margin: 2px =
0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;" class=3D"">
----------</p><p style=3D"font-family: Courier; font-size: 11px; margin: 2px =
0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;" class=3D"">
The Working Group will develop specifications supporting the creation of<br=
 class=3D"">
interoperable remote attestation procedures for entities which incorporate&=
nbsp;<br class=3D"">
Roots of Trust. The main deliverables are as follows.&nbsp;</p><p style=3D"fo=
nt-family: Courier; font-size: 11px; margin: 2px 0px; font-stretch: normal; =
line-height: normal;" class=3D"">
- Produce a requirements document establishing a common vocabulary for remo=
te<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; attestation, identifying mechanisms which will be supported for esta=
blishing<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; trust between an entity and a remote party, and enumerating sample u=
se-cases<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; for remote attestation.</p><p style=3D"font-family: Courier; font-size=
: 11px; margin: 2px 0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;" class=3D"=
">
- Produce specification text defining interoperable cross-platform claims w=
hich<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; provide information about an entity in support of the required use-c=
ases, and<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; extending the set of claims defined in RFC7519 and RFC8392. The spec=
ification<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; will describe the syntax for each claim in at least the following fo=
rmats:<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; - CBOR [RFC7049]<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; - JSON [RFC7159]<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; - YANG [RFC6020]</p></div></div></div></div></blockquote></sp=
an><div>[CW] ASN.1 is already player for a number of attestation formats. An=
y reason to exclude it?</div><div><br></div><span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION">=
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"padding: 0px 0px =
0px 5px; margin: 0px 0px 0px 5px;"><div><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -=
webkit-nbsp-mode: space;" class=3D""><div><div><p style=3D"font-family: Courier;=
 font-size: 11px; margin: 2px 0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal=
;" class=3D"">
- Produce specification text defining procedures and corresponding architec=
tures<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; supporting verification of claims within an attestation based on mea=
sured file<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; execution procedures and supporting:<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; - Explicit attestation wherein a set of claims is transported=
 in the attestation;<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; - Implicit attestation wherein a set of claims is implied by =
possession of a secret.</p><p style=3D"font-family: Courier; font-size: 11px; =
margin: 2px 0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;" class=3D"">
- Produce specification text defining procedures and corresponding architec=
tures<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; supporting verification of claims encapsulated in:</p><p style=3D"font=
-family: Courier; font-size: 11px; margin: 2px 0px; font-stretch: normal; li=
ne-height: normal;" class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; - CBOR Web Token structures [RFC8392]<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; - JSON Web Token structures [RFC7519]</p></div></div></div></=
div></blockquote></span><div>[CW] As noted before, I'd like to see binding t=
o certificate enrollment protocols included here as well. This is something =
we are doing today, without standards grounding (as illustrated in pile of a=
ttestations shared via Github a few weeks back).&nbsp;</div><div><br></div><=
span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION"><blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCK=
QUOTE" style=3D"padding: 0px 0px 0px 5px; margin: 0px 0px 0px 5px;"><div><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;" class=3D""><div><div>=
<p style=3D"font-family: Courier; font-size: 11px; margin: 2px 0px; font-stret=
ch: normal; line-height: normal;" class=3D"">
- Perform privacy analysis of both claims and the cryptographic procedures =
used to<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; establish trust. This information will be included as appropriate in=
 the<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; deliverable specifications, and may imply extension of procedures de=
fined in<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; other specifications in support of privacy goals.</p></div><div styl=
e=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><br class=3D""></div><d=
iv style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">It seems to me=
 that there are two ways to produce the main specification deliverables. I h=
ave deliberately left the text above slightly vague on this.</div><div style=
=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><ul class=3D"MailOutline=
"><li class=3D"">A claims specification common to RATS and EAT with separate R=
ATS and EAT procedure specifications.</li><li class=3D"">A claims specificatio=
n also incorporating EAT procedures and a separate RATS procedure specificat=
ion. This would be my preferred option.
<ul class=3D""><li class=3D"">I believe there are very few procedures needed fo=
r EAT other than the possible need to support a nonce to ensure freshness</l=
i></ul></li></ul></div><div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-si=
ze: 14px;"><br class=3D""></div><div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
font-size: 14px;">Jeremy</div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"" style=3D"font-f=
amily: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><b=
r class=3D"">
Notice how by about the second paragraph (6tisch takes a bit longer), each<=
br class=3D"">
gets into what the WG will do?<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">
--<br class=3D"">
Michael Richardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca" class=3D"">mcr+=
IETF@sandelman.ca</a>&gt;, Sandelman Software Works<br class=3D"">
-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-<br class=3D"">
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">
EAT mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:EAT@ietf.org" class=3D"">EAT@iet=
f.org</a><br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat">https://www.ietf.org/ma=
ilman/listinfo/eat</a><br class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D=
""></div></div><font face=3D"Calibri,sans-serif">
_______________________________________________
RATS mailing list
</font><a href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-ser=
if; font-size: 14px;">RATS@ietf.org</a>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats" style=3D"font-family: Ca=
libri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/r=
ats</a>
</blockquote></span></body></html>

--B_3623138104_16942883--



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From: Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>
To: Carl Wallace <carl@redhoundsoftware.com>
CC: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] [EAT]   Attestation BoF charter updates?
Thread-Index: AQHUauM1YZGxqVPSIk2WRVqX8pXQ8KUs7y8A
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 17:10:06 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT]   Attestation BoF charter updates?
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On 23 Oct 2018, at 16:14, Carl Wallace <carl@redhoundsoftware.com<mailto:ca=
rl@redhoundsoftware.com>> wrote:

<snip>

Work Items

----------

The Working Group will develop specifications supporting the creation of
interoperable remote attestation procedures for entities which incorporate
Roots of Trust. The main deliverables are as follows.

- Produce a requirements document establishing a common vocabulary for remo=
te
  attestation, identifying mechanisms which will be supported for establish=
ing
  trust between an entity and a remote party, and enumerating sample use-ca=
ses
  for remote attestation.

- Produce specification text defining interoperable cross-platform claims w=
hich
  provide information about an entity in support of the required use-cases,=
 and
  extending the set of claims defined in RFC7519 and RFC8392. The specifica=
tion
  will describe the syntax for each claim in at least the following formats=
:
    - CBOR [RFC7049]
    - JSON [RFC7159]
    - YANG [RFC6020]

[CW] ASN.1 is already player for a number of attestation formats. Any reaso=
n to exclude it?

None I can technically justify. It seems sensible to have ASN.1 in scope, a=
t least in terms of defining the syntax of claims in ASN.1. I am less sure =
whether it makes sense to define signing procedures for ASN1. (since these =
are presumably defined elsewhere), but I could be persuaded (e.g. by the st=
atement "no they aren't defined elsewhere - at least not for this important=
 use-case").


- Produce specification text defining procedures and corresponding architec=
tures
  supporting verification of claims within an attestation based on measured=
 file
  execution procedures and supporting:
    - Explicit attestation wherein a set of claims is transported in the at=
testation;
    - Implicit attestation wherein a set of claims is implied by possession=
 of a secret.

- Produce specification text defining procedures and corresponding architec=
tures
  supporting verification of claims encapsulated in:

    - CBOR Web Token structures [RFC8392]
    - JSON Web Token structures [RFC7519]

[CW] As noted before, I'd like to see binding to certificate enrollment pro=
tocols included here as well. This is something we are doing today, without=
 standards grounding (as illustrated in pile of attestations shared via Git=
hub a few weeks back).

It would be interesting to understand your thinking a bit further. At one l=
evel it is fairly straightforward to define a claim whose value contains an=
 X.509 certificate, but I suspect that binding may imply more than that.


- Perform privacy analysis of both claims and the cryptographic procedures =
used to
  establish trust. This information will be included as appropriate in the
  deliverable specifications, and may imply extension of procedures defined=
 in
  other specifications in support of privacy goals.

It seems to me that there are two ways to produce the main specification de=
liverables. I have deliberately left the text above slightly vague on this.

  *   A claims specification common to RATS and EAT with separate RATS and =
EAT procedure specifications.
  *   A claims specification also incorporating EAT procedures and a separa=
te RATS procedure specification. This would be my preferred option.
     *   I believe there are very few procedures needed for EAT other than =
the possible need to support a nonce to ensure freshness

Jeremy

Notice how by about the second paragraph (6tisch takes a bit longer), each
gets into what the WG will do?

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca<mailto:mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>>, S=
andelman Software Works
-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
_______________________________________________
EAT mailing list
EAT@ietf.org<mailto:EAT@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat

_______________________________________________ RATS mailing list RATS@ietf=
.org<mailto:RATS@ietf.org> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats


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<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii"=
>
</head>
<body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break:=
 after-white-space;" class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">On 23 Oct 2018, at 16:14, Carl Wallace &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:carl@redhoundsoftware.com" class=3D"">carl@redhoundsoftware.com</a>&gt; w=
rote:</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: =
after-white-space; font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" clas=
s=3D"">
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" class=3D"">
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"padding: 0px=
 0px 0px 5px; margin: 0px 0px 0px 5px;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<p style=3D"margin: 2px 0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; min=
-height: 13px;" class=3D"">
<font face=3D"Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D"">&lt;snip&gt;</font></p>
<p style=3D"font-family: Courier; font-size: 11px; margin: 2px 0px; font-st=
retch: normal; line-height: normal;" class=3D"">
Work Items</p>
<p style=3D"font-family: Courier; font-size: 11px; margin: 2px 0px; font-st=
retch: normal; line-height: normal;" class=3D"">
----------</p>
<p style=3D"font-family: Courier; font-size: 11px; margin: 2px 0px; font-st=
retch: normal; line-height: normal;" class=3D"">
The Working Group will develop specifications supporting the creation of<br=
 class=3D"">
interoperable remote attestation procedures for entities which incorporate&=
nbsp;<br class=3D"">
Roots of Trust. The main deliverables are as follows.&nbsp;</p>
<p style=3D"font-family: Courier; font-size: 11px; margin: 2px 0px; font-st=
retch: normal; line-height: normal;" class=3D"">
- Produce a requirements document establishing a common vocabulary for remo=
te<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; attestation, identifying mechanisms which will be supported for esta=
blishing<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; trust between an entity and a remote party, and enumerating sample u=
se-cases<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; for remote attestation.</p>
<p style=3D"font-family: Courier; font-size: 11px; margin: 2px 0px; font-st=
retch: normal; line-height: normal;" class=3D"">
- Produce specification text defining interoperable cross-platform claims w=
hich<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; provide information about an entity in support of the required use-c=
ases, and<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; extending the set of claims defined in RFC7519 and RFC8392. The spec=
ification<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; will describe the syntax for each claim in at least the following fo=
rmats:<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; - CBOR [RFC7049]<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; - JSON [RFC7159]<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; - YANG [RFC6020]</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span>
<div class=3D"">[CW] ASN.1 is already player for a number of attestation fo=
rmats. Any reason to exclude it?</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div>None I can technically justify. It seems sensible to have ASN.1 in sco=
pe, at least in terms of defining the syntax of claims in ASN.1. I am less =
sure whether it makes sense to define signing procedures for ASN1. (since t=
hese are presumably defined elsewhere),
 but I could be persuaded (e.g. by the statement &quot;no they aren't defin=
ed elsewhere - at least not for this important use-case&quot;).</div>
<div><br class=3D"">
</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: =
after-white-space; font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" clas=
s=3D"">
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" class=3D"">
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"padding: 0px=
 0px 0px 5px; margin: 0px 0px 0px 5px;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<p style=3D"font-family: Courier; font-size: 11px; margin: 2px 0px; font-st=
retch: normal; line-height: normal;" class=3D"">
- Produce specification text defining procedures and corresponding architec=
tures<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; supporting verification of claims within an attestation based on mea=
sured file<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; execution procedures and supporting:<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; - Explicit attestation wherein a set of claims is transported=
 in the attestation;<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; - Implicit attestation wherein a set of claims is implied by =
possession of a secret.</p>
<p style=3D"font-family: Courier; font-size: 11px; margin: 2px 0px; font-st=
retch: normal; line-height: normal;" class=3D"">
- Produce specification text defining procedures and corresponding architec=
tures<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; supporting verification of claims encapsulated in:</p>
<p style=3D"font-family: Courier; font-size: 11px; margin: 2px 0px; font-st=
retch: normal; line-height: normal;" class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; - CBOR Web Token structures [RFC8392]<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; - JSON Web Token structures [RFC7519]</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span>
<div class=3D"">[CW] As noted before, I'd like to see binding to certificat=
e enrollment protocols included here as well. This is something we are doin=
g today, without standards grounding (as illustrated in pile of attestation=
s shared via Github a few weeks back).</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div>It would be interesting to understand your thinking a bit further. At =
one level it is fairly straightforward to define a claim whose value contai=
ns an X.509 certificate, but I suspect that binding may imply more than tha=
t.<span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class=
=3D"">&nbsp;</span></div>
<div><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" cla=
ss=3D""><br class=3D"">
</span></div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: =
after-white-space; font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" clas=
s=3D"">
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" class=3D"">
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"padding: 0px=
 0px 0px 5px; margin: 0px 0px 0px 5px;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<p style=3D"font-family: Courier; font-size: 11px; margin: 2px 0px; font-st=
retch: normal; line-height: normal;" class=3D"">
- Perform privacy analysis of both claims and the cryptographic procedures =
used to<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; establish trust. This information will be included as appropriate in=
 the<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; deliverable specifications, and may imply extension of procedures de=
fined in<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; other specifications in support of privacy goals.</p>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class=3D"=
"><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class=3D"=
">It seems to me that there are two ways to produce the main specification =
deliverables. I have deliberately left the text above slightly vague on thi=
s.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class=3D"=
">
<ul class=3D"MailOutline">
<li class=3D"">A claims specification common to RATS and EAT with separate =
RATS and EAT procedure specifications.</li><li class=3D"">A claims specific=
ation also incorporating EAT procedures and a separate RATS procedure speci=
fication. This would be my preferred option.
<ul class=3D"">
<li class=3D"">I believe there are very few procedures needed for EAT other=
 than the possible need to support a nonce to ensure freshness</li></ul>
</li></ul>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class=3D"=
"><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class=3D"=
">Jeremy</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"" style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-se=
rif; font-size: 14px;">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
Notice how by about the second paragraph (6tisch takes a bit longer), each<=
br class=3D"">
gets into what the WG will do?<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
--<br class=3D"">
Michael Richardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr&#43;IETF@sandelman.ca" class=
=3D"">mcr&#43;IETF@sandelman.ca</a>&gt;, Sandelman Software Works<br class=
=3D"">
-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-<br class=3D"">
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">
EAT mailing list<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"mailto:EAT@ietf.org" class=3D"">EAT@ietf.org</a><br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat" class=3D"">https://ww=
w.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat</a><br class=3D"">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class=3D"">
</div>
</div>
<font face=3D"Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D"">______________________________=
_________________ RATS mailing list
</font><a href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans=
-serif; font-size: 14px;" class=3D"">RATS@ietf.org</a>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats" style=3D"font-family=
: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" class=3D"">
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats</a> </blockquote>
</span></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
To: Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [EAT] [Rats]  Attestation BoF charter updates?
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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
To: Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>, Carl Wallace <carl@redhoundsoftware.com>
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Thread-Topic: [EAT] [Rats]    Attestation BoF charter updates?
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT]     Attestation BoF charter updates?
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Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 13:31:28 -0400
From: Carl Wallace <carl@redhoundsoftware.com>
To: Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>
CC: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <D7F4D296.C3CF7%carl@redhoundsoftware.com>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] [EAT]   Attestation BoF charter updates?
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT]   Attestation BoF charter updates?
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From:  Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>
Date:  Tuesday, October 23, 2018 at 1:10 PM
>> On 23 Oct 2018, at 16:14, Carl Wallace <carl@redhoundsoftware.com> wrote:
>>> <snip>
>>> 
>>> Work Items
>>> 
>>> ----------
>>> 
>>> The Working Group will develop specifications supporting the creation of
>>> interoperable remote attestation procedures for entities which incorporate
>>> Roots of Trust. The main deliverables are as follows.
>>> 
>>> - Produce a requirements document establishing a common vocabulary for
>>> remote
>>>   attestation, identifying mechanisms which will be supported for
>>> establishing
>>>   trust between an entity and a remote party, and enumerating sample
>>> use-cases
>>>   for remote attestation.
>>> 
>>> - Produce specification text defining interoperable cross-platform claims
>>> which
>>>   provide information about an entity in support of the required use-cases,
>>> and
>>>   extending the set of claims defined in RFC7519 and RFC8392. The
>>> specification
>>>   will describe the syntax for each claim in at least the following formats:
>>>     - CBOR [RFC7049]
>>>     - JSON [RFC7159]
>>>     - YANG [RFC6020]
>> 
>> [CW] ASN.1 is already player for a number of attestation formats. Any reason
>> to exclude it?
> 
> None I can technically justify. It seems sensible to have ASN.1 in scope, at
> least in terms of defining the syntax of claims in ASN.1. I am less sure
> whether it makes sense to define signing procedures for ASN1. (since these are
> presumably defined elsewhere), but I could be persuaded (e.g. by the statement
> "no they aren't defined elsewhere - at least not for this important
> use-case").
[CW] I'd not discount CMS not because there aren't mechanisms elsewhere, but
because it's already used in some attestation contexts.
> 
>>> - Produce specification text defining procedures and corresponding
>>> architectures
>>>   supporting verification of claims within an attestation based on measured
>>> file
>>>   execution procedures and supporting:
>>>     - Explicit attestation wherein a set of claims is transported in the
>>> attestation;
>>>     - Implicit attestation wherein a set of claims is implied by possession
>>> of a secret.
>>> 
>>> - Produce specification text defining procedures and corresponding
>>> architectures
>>>   supporting verification of claims encapsulated in:
>>> 
>>>     - CBOR Web Token structures [RFC8392]
>>>     - JSON Web Token structures [RFC7519]
>> 
>> [CW] As noted before, I'd like to see binding to certificate enrollment
>> protocols included here as well. This is something we are doing today,
>> without standards grounding (as illustrated in pile of attestations shared
>> via Github a few weeks back).
> 
> It would be interesting to understand your thinking a bit further. At one
> level it is fairly straightforward to define a claim whose value contains an
> X.509 certificate, but I suspect that binding may imply more than that.
[CW] My goal is to present an attestation to a CA before a certificate is
issued so the provenance of the key can be confirmed to inform issuance
decisions. I currently do include self-signed X.509 certificates as claims
in attestations, which may be what you meant.
> <snip>
> 



--B_3623146297_17402904
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<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: s=
pace; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size:=
 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><div><span style=3D"font-family: Cal=
ibri; font-size: 11pt; font-weight: bold;">From: </span><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;"> Jeremy O'Donoghue &lt;</span><a href=3D"mail=
to:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com" style=3D"font-family: Calibri; font-size: 11pt;"=
>jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com</a><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri; font-size: =
11pt;">&gt;</span></div><span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION"><div style=3D"font-fam=
ily:Calibri; font-size:11pt; text-align:left; color:black; BORDER-BOTTOM: me=
dium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in;=
 PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium non=
e; PADDING-TOP: 3pt"><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span> Tuesday, O=
ctober 23, 2018 at 1:10 PM<br></div><blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_=
BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0=
 0 5;"><div><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; lin=
e-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">=
<div class=3D"">On 23 Oct 2018, at 16:14, Carl Wallace &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:car=
l@redhoundsoftware.com" class=3D"">carl@redhoundsoftware.com</a>&gt; wrote:</d=
iv><div class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space=
; line-break: after-white-space; font-size: 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans=
-serif;" class=3D""><span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" class=3D""><blockquote id=3D"M=
AC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"padding: 0px 0px 0px 5px; margin: =
0px 0px 0px 5px;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: =
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">=
<p style=3D"margin: 2px 0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; min-he=
ight: 13px;" class=3D""><font face=3D"Calibri,sans-serif" class=3D"">&lt;snip&gt;<=
/font></p><p style=3D"font-family: Courier; font-size: 11px; margin: 2px 0px; =
font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;" class=3D"">
Work Items</p><p style=3D"font-family: Courier; font-size: 11px; margin: 2px =
0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;" class=3D"">
----------</p><p style=3D"font-family: Courier; font-size: 11px; margin: 2px =
0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;" class=3D"">
The Working Group will develop specifications supporting the creation of<br=
 class=3D"">
interoperable remote attestation procedures for entities which incorporate&=
nbsp;<br class=3D"">
Roots of Trust. The main deliverables are as follows.&nbsp;</p><p style=3D"fo=
nt-family: Courier; font-size: 11px; margin: 2px 0px; font-stretch: normal; =
line-height: normal;" class=3D"">
- Produce a requirements document establishing a common vocabulary for remo=
te<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; attestation, identifying mechanisms which will be supported for esta=
blishing<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; trust between an entity and a remote party, and enumerating sample u=
se-cases<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; for remote attestation.</p><p style=3D"font-family: Courier; font-size=
: 11px; margin: 2px 0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;" class=3D"=
">
- Produce specification text defining interoperable cross-platform claims w=
hich<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; provide information about an entity in support of the required use-c=
ases, and<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; extending the set of claims defined in RFC7519 and RFC8392. The spec=
ification<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; will describe the syntax for each claim in at least the following fo=
rmats:<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; - CBOR [RFC7049]<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; - JSON [RFC7159]<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; - YANG [RFC6020]</p></div></div></div></div></blockquote></sp=
an><div class=3D"">[CW] ASN.1 is already player for a number of attestation fo=
rmats. Any reason to exclude it?</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br clas=
s=3D""></div><div>None I can technically justify. It seems sensible to have AS=
N.1 in scope, at least in terms of defining the syntax of claims in ASN.1. I=
 am less sure whether it makes sense to define signing procedures for ASN1. =
(since these are presumably defined elsewhere),
 but I could be persuaded (e.g. by the statement "no they aren't defined el=
sewhere - at least not for this important use-case").</div></div></div></div=
></blockquote></span><div>[CW] I'd not discount CMS not because there aren't=
 mechanisms elsewhere, but because it's already used in some attestation con=
texts.</div><span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION"><blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTR=
IBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MA=
RGIN:0 0 0 5;"><div><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: sp=
ace; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div><div><br class=3D""></div><=
blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-w=
ord; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space; font-size: 14p=
x; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTIO=
N" class=3D""><blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"paddi=
ng: 0px 0px 0px 5px; margin: 0px 0px 0px 5px;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div cla=
ss=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space;" class=3D""=
><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><p style=3D"font-family: Courier; font-size: 11px=
; margin: 2px 0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;" class=3D"">
- Produce specification text defining procedures and corresponding architec=
tures<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; supporting verification of claims within an attestation based on mea=
sured file<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; execution procedures and supporting:<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; - Explicit attestation wherein a set of claims is transported=
 in the attestation;<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; - Implicit attestation wherein a set of claims is implied by =
possession of a secret.</p><p style=3D"font-family: Courier; font-size: 11px; =
margin: 2px 0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal;" class=3D"">
- Produce specification text defining procedures and corresponding architec=
tures<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; supporting verification of claims encapsulated in:</p><p style=3D"font=
-family: Courier; font-size: 11px; margin: 2px 0px; font-stretch: normal; li=
ne-height: normal;" class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; - CBOR Web Token structures [RFC8392]<br class=3D"">
&nbsp; &nbsp; - JSON Web Token structures [RFC7519]</p></div></div></div></=
div></blockquote></span><div class=3D"">[CW] As noted before, I'd like to see =
binding to certificate enrollment protocols included here as well. This is s=
omething we are doing today, without standards grounding (as illustrated in =
pile of attestations shared via Github a few weeks back).</div></div></div><=
/blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>It would be interesting to understa=
nd your thinking a bit further. At one level it is fairly straightforward to=
 define a claim whose value contains an X.509 certificate, but I suspect tha=
t binding may imply more than that.<span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans-s=
erif; font-size: 14px;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></div></div></div></div></bloc=
kquote></span><div>[CW] My goal is to present an attestation to a CA before =
a certificate is issued so the provenance of the key can be confirmed to inf=
orm issuance decisions. I currently do include self-signed X.509 certificate=
s as claims in attestations, which may be what you meant.&nbsp;</div><span i=
d=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION"><blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"=
 style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;"><div=
><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: af=
ter-white-space;" class=3D""><div><div><span style=3D"font-family: Calibri, sans=
-serif; font-size: 14px;" class=3D"">&lt;snip&gt;</span></div></div><br class=3D=
""></div></div></blockquote></span></body></html>

--B_3623146297_17402904--



From nobody Tue Oct 23 10:34:11 2018
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Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 13:33:56 -0400
From: Carl Wallace <carl@redhoundsoftware.com>
To: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>
CC: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>,  "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: [EAT] [Rats]    Attestation BoF charter updates?
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT]     Attestation BoF charter updates?
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<snip>
>  
> 
> It would be interesting to understand your thinking a bit further. At one
> level it is fairly straightforward to define a claim whose value contains an
> X.509 certificate, but I suspect that binding may imply more than that.
> [nms] It is also reasonable to consider an X.509 certificate as being an
> object that contains a set of claims (rather than the other way around).
[cw] Not if the goal is to prevent issuance of a certificate because
provenance of a key cannot be confirmed. Having a self-issued cert contain
claims is fine, but this does not obviate the need to bind to issuance
protocols to inform CA issuance.

<snip>
> 



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LK_SRC_BODY_SECTION"><blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" sty=
le=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;"><div xml=
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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: "Jeremy O'Donoghue" <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [EAT] [Rats]  Attestation BoF charter updates?
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT]   Attestation BoF charter updates?
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Hi Jeremy,

Thanks for taking a cut at this charter simplification.  There are a few ar=
eas covered within the GitHub Goals<https://github.com/ietf-rats/charter/bl=
ob/RC2/ietf-rats-charter.md> which I can't easily map to your text below.  =
Could you talk about how these elements are covered (or not)?   For context=
, I am working from the perspective of remote attestation application<https=
://www.cisco.com/c/dam/en/us/td/docs/cloud-systems-management/application-p=
olicy-infrastructure-controller-enterprise-module/1-5-x/integrity_verificat=
ion/user-guide/Cisco_Integrity_Verification_Application_APIC-EM_User_Guide_=
1_5_0_x.pdf> developer trying to standardize the interfaces between a contr=
oller (which is acting as a claim verifier) and a network element (which in=
cludes TCG based subsystems.)

For my application to work properly, there are several things needed within=
 a network controller to validate the asserted claims coming out of a route=
r.  These include:


*       How do we expose the attestation evidence which can be used to vali=
date asserted claims?

*       How do we know which root of trust which was used to generate the a=
ttestation evidence (e.g., application event logs), and how does a verifier=
 differentiate this from the root-of-trust which asserts claims made upon t=
his evidence?

*       What entities are allowed to read the info asserted claims?  What s=
ubset of these can see the raw attestation evidence?


These questions are significant because routers/switches are not monolithic=
 devices.  In fact, they are composed of subsystems with different levels o=
f trustworthiness.  As the IETF often aims at protocol specifications at th=
e inter-device level, I am looking for coverage of such questions in the ch=
arter.

Thanks,
Eric

From: Jeremy O'Donoghue, October 23, 2018 10:40 AM

On 22 Oct 2018, at 22:01, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca<mailto:=
mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>> wrote:


Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com<mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.c=
om>> wrote:

This is a very useful contribution, Laurence.


The current draft text is too strongly biased towards attestation based
on measurement, and does not adequately cover other mechanisms which
are already

But, it's for the charter, for the WG, it's not a treatise on attestation
itself.

This is all supposed to be *meta* text about attestation, about what we wan=
t
to say about attestation in the documents, not about what attestation is.

Please go read some other IETF charters:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/6lo/about/
https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/6tisch/about/
https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/suit/about/

Fair comment.

We have two existing proposals - EAT and RATS - which address a similar pro=
blem space but using different mechanisms. While I believe the RATS and EAT=
 contributors are in broad agreement that there is significant benefit in b=
ringing both work streams under a single umbrella, trying to properly incor=
porate EAT through incremental modification to the draft RATS WG charter te=
xt is proving challenging.

The below probably diverges too far from the current text for some tastes, =
but it may address your point and provide a basis for discussion (at this p=
oint the GitHub draft<https://github.com/ietf-rats/charter/blob/RC2/ietf-ra=
ts-charter.md> seems a long way behind the list). It is deliberately signif=
icantly shorter than the current draft - I have tried to re-use as much exi=
sting text as possible, but it is heavily re-organised and abridged.

I have taken on board the comment from Carsten that perhaps a minimum level=
 of terminology is acceptable in charter text, but deliberately tried to ke=
ep the language simple and fairly generic to enable the proper work of term=
inology definition to take place in the requirements document as you sugges=
t.

Introduction
------------
Remote attestation procedures can be incorporated in network protocols to
provide the basis for establishing claims about an entity in a trustworthy
manner. Such claims may include, but are not limited to, device identity,
manufacturing origin, system integrity, configuration, operational state an=
d
measurements of steps which led to the operational state. Such procedures
expose entity characteristics in the form of claim sets which allow remote
parties to establish the trustworthiness of a device, provide evidence that=
 a
particular set of operations and functions are supported and/or that the
entity is actually what it claims to be.
In the absence of such procedures, while domain-specific attestation
mechanisms such as TCG TPM, FIDO Alliance attestation and Android Keystore
attestation exist, there is no common way for a remote party to tell if dat=
a
originates from a trustworthy device (e.g. a Trusted System designed to
support a specific set of operations/functionalities) or not.
The following minimal terminology is defined for the purposes of clarifying=
 the
Working Group charter text:
- attestation: a set of claims which can be verified as originating in an
          entity.
- claim:  as defined in RFC7519.
- entity: a device or device sub-module that can generate a claim or set of
          claims which can be verified by a remote party.
- remote party: an actor remote from an entity that wishes to verify whethe=
r
          a claim or set of claims originated in a given entity.
Description of the Working Group
--------------------------------
The Working Group will define:
- Standardized and interoperable mechanisms to establish a sufficient level
  of confidence that data originates from a trustworthy entity designed to
  support a specific set of operations/functionalities.
- Standardized and interoperable mechanisms building on (1) to allow remote
  parties to know the provenance and characteristics of an entity that may =
be
  requesting services.
The Working Group will identify security goals which it expects a trustwort=
hy
execution context to address, which will assume the presence of Roots of
Trust (as defined by NIST [SP800-164]). The detailed specification of such
contexts is out of scope.
The Working Group will maintain close relationships with bodies undertaking
complementary work streams in the area of remote attestation such as
GlobalPlatform, Trusted Computing Group and FIDO Alliance.
The Working Group will cooperate with the TEEP Working Group, which may
generate requirements for claims relevant to TEE.

Work Items
----------
The Working Group will develop specifications supporting the creation of
interoperable remote attestation procedures for entities which incorporate
Roots of Trust. The main deliverables are as follows.
- Produce a requirements document establishing a common vocabulary for remo=
te
  attestation, identifying mechanisms which will be supported for establish=
ing
  trust between an entity and a remote party, and enumerating sample use-ca=
ses
  for remote attestation.
- Produce specification text defining interoperable cross-platform claims w=
hich
  provide information about an entity in support of the required use-cases,=
 and
  extending the set of claims defined in RFC7519 and RFC8392. The specifica=
tion
  will describe the syntax for each claim in at least the following formats=
:
    - CBOR [RFC7049]
    - JSON [RFC7159]
    - YANG [RFC6020]
- Produce specification text defining procedures and corresponding architec=
tures
  supporting verification of claims within an attestation based on measured=
 file
  execution procedures and supporting:
    - Explicit attestation wherein a set of claims is transported in the at=
testation;
    - Implicit attestation wherein a set of claims is implied by possession=
 of a secret.
- Produce specification text defining procedures and corresponding architec=
tures
  supporting verification of claims encapsulated in:
    - CBOR Web Token structures [RFC8392]
    - JSON Web Token structures [RFC7519]
- Perform privacy analysis of both claims and the cryptographic procedures =
used to
  establish trust. This information will be included as appropriate in the
  deliverable specifications, and may imply extension of procedures defined=
 in
  other specifications in support of privacy goals.

It seems to me that there are two ways to produce the main specification de=
liverables. I have deliberately left the text above slightly vague on this.

  *   A claims specification common to RATS and EAT with separate RATS and =
EAT procedure specifications.
  *   A claims specification also incorporating EAT procedures and a separa=
te RATS procedure specification. This would be my preferred option.

     *   I believe there are very few procedures needed for EAT other than =
the possible need to support a nonce to ensure freshness

Jeremy

Notice how by about the second paragraph (6tisch takes a bit longer), each
gets into what the WG will do?

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca<mailto:mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>>, S=
andelman Software Works
-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
_______________________________________________
EAT mailing list
EAT@ietf.org<mailto:EAT@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat


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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Hi Jeremy,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Thanks for taking a cut at this chart=
er simplification.&nbsp; There are a few areas covered within the
<a href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-rats/charter/blob/RC2/ietf-rats-charter.=
md">GitHub Goals</a> which I can&#8217;t easily map to your text below.&nbs=
p; Could you talk about how these elements are covered (or not)?&nbsp;&nbsp=
; For context, I am working from the perspective of
<a href=3D"https://www.cisco.com/c/dam/en/us/td/docs/cloud-systems-manageme=
nt/application-policy-infrastructure-controller-enterprise-module/1-5-x/int=
egrity_verification/user-guide/Cisco_Integrity_Verification_Application_API=
C-EM_User_Guide_1_5_0_x.pdf">
remote attestation application</a> developer trying to standardize the inte=
rfaces between a controller (which is acting as a claim verifier) and a net=
work element (which includes TCG based subsystems.)&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">For my application to work properly, =
there are several things needed within a network controller to validate the=
 asserted claims coming out of a router.&nbsp; These
 include:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level=
1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Sy=
mbol;color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"=
font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">How do we expose the attestat=
ion evidence which can be used to validate asserted claims?<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level=
1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Sy=
mbol;color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"=
font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">How do we know which root of =
trust which was used to generate the attestation evidence (e.g., applicatio=
n event logs), and how does a verifier differentiate
 this from the root-of-trust which asserts claims made upon this evidence? =
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level=
1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Sy=
mbol;color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&middot;<span style=3D"=
font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">What entities are allowed to =
read the info asserted claims?&nbsp; What subset of these can see the raw a=
ttestation evidence?
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&=
quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">These questions are significant becau=
se routers/switches are not monolithic devices.&nbsp; In fact, they are com=
posed of subsystems with different levels of trustworthiness.&nbsp;
 As the IETF often aims at protocol specifications at the inter-device leve=
l, I am looking for coverage of such questions in the charter.<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D">Eric<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,sans-serif;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;=
font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"> Jeremy O'Donoghue, October 23,=
 2018 10:40 AM<br>
<br>
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On 22 Oct 2018, at 22:01, Michael Richardson &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mcr&#43;ietf@sandelman.ca">mcr&#43;ietf@sandelman.ca</a>&gt;=
 wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
Jeremy O'Donoghue &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com">jodonogh=
@qti.qualcomm.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This is a very useful contribution, Laurence.<o:p></=
o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The current draft text is too strongly biased toward=
s attestation based<br>
on measurement, and does not adequately cover other mechanisms which<br>
are already<o:p></o:p></p>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
But, it's for the charter, for the WG, it's not a treatise on attestation<b=
r>
itself.<br>
<br>
This is all supposed to be *meta* text about attestation, about what we wan=
t<br>
to say about attestation in the documents, not about what attestation is.<b=
r>
<br>
Please go read some other IETF charters:<br>
<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/6lo/about/">https://datatracker.=
ietf.org/wg/6lo/about/</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/6tisch/about/">https://datatrack=
er.ietf.org/wg/6tisch/about/</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/suit/about/">https://datatracker=
.ietf.org/wg/suit/about/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Fair comment.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">We have two existing proposals - EAT and RATS - whic=
h address a similar problem space but using different mechanisms. While I b=
elieve the RATS and EAT contributors are in broad agreement that there is s=
ignificant benefit in bringing both
 work streams under a single umbrella, trying to properly incorporate EAT t=
hrough incremental modification to the draft RATS WG charter text is provin=
g challenging.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The below probably diverges too far from the current=
 text for some tastes, but it may address your point and provide a basis fo=
r discussion (at this point the&nbsp;<a href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-rat=
s/charter/blob/RC2/ietf-rats-charter.md">GitHub
 draft</a>&nbsp;seems a long way behind the list). It is deliberately signi=
ficantly shorter than the current draft - I have tried to re-use as much ex=
isting text as possible, but it is heavily re-organised and abridged.<o:p><=
/o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I have taken on board the comment from Carsten that =
perhaps a minimum level of terminology is acceptable in charter text, but d=
eliberately tried to keep the language simple and fairly generic to enable =
the proper work of terminology definition
 to take place in the requirements document as you suggest.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:1.5pt;margin-right:0in;m=
argin-bottom:1.5pt;margin-left:0in;font-stretch: normal">
<span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Courier">Introduction<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:1.5pt;margin-right:0in;m=
argin-bottom:1.5pt;margin-left:0in;font-stretch: normal">
<span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Courier">------------<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:1.5pt;margin-right:0in;m=
argin-bottom:1.5pt;margin-left:0in;font-stretch: normal">
<span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Courier">Remote attestation proc=
edures can be incorporated in network protocols to<br>
provide the basis for establishing claims about an entity in a trustworthy<=
br>
manner. Such claims may include, but are not limited to, device identity,<b=
r>
manufacturing origin, system integrity, configuration, operational state an=
d<br>
measurements of steps which led to the operational state. Such procedures<b=
r>
expose entity characteristics in the form of claim sets which allow remote<=
br>
parties to establish the trustworthiness of a device, provide evidence that=
 a<br>
particular set of operations and functions are supported and/or that the<br=
>
entity is actually what it claims to be.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:1.5pt;margin-right:0in;m=
argin-bottom:1.5pt;margin-left:0in;font-stretch: normal">
<span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Courier">In the absence of such =
procedures, while domain-specific attestation<br>
mechanisms such as TCG TPM, FIDO Alliance attestation and Android Keystore<=
br>
attestation exist, there is no common way for a remote party to tell if dat=
a<br>
originates from a trustworthy device (e.g. a Trusted System designed to<br>
support a specific set of operations/functionalities) or not.<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:1.5pt;margin-right:0in;m=
argin-bottom:1.5pt;margin-left:0in;font-stretch: normal">
<span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Courier">The following minimal t=
erminology is defined for the purposes of clarifying the<br>
Working Group charter text:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:1.5pt;margin-right:0in;m=
argin-bottom:1.5pt;margin-left:0in;font-stretch: normal">
<span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Courier">- attestation: a set of=
 claims which can be verified as originating in an<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; entity.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:1.5pt;margin-right:0in;m=
argin-bottom:1.5pt;margin-left:0in;font-stretch: normal">
<span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Courier">- claim:&nbsp; as defin=
ed in RFC7519.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:1.5pt;margin-right:0in;m=
argin-bottom:1.5pt;margin-left:0in;font-stretch: normal">
<span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Courier">- entity: a device or d=
evice sub-module that can generate a claim or set of<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; claims which can be verified by a remote=
 party.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:9.0pt;font-stretch: normal"><=
span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Courier">- remote party: an actor=
 remote from an entity that wishes to verify whether<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; a claim or set of claims originated in a=
 given entity.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:1.5pt;margin-right:0in;m=
argin-bottom:1.5pt;margin-left:0in;font-stretch: normal">
<span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Courier">Description of the Work=
ing Group<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:1.5pt;margin-right:0in;m=
argin-bottom:1.5pt;margin-left:0in;font-stretch: normal">
<span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Courier">-----------------------=
---------<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:1.5pt;margin-right:0in;m=
argin-bottom:1.5pt;margin-left:0in;font-stretch: normal">
<span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Courier">The Working Group will =
define:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:9.0pt;font-stretch: normal"><=
span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Courier">- Standardized and inter=
operable mechanisms to establish a sufficient level<br>
&nbsp; of confidence that data originates from a trustworthy entity designe=
d to<br>
&nbsp; support a specific set of operations/functionalities.<br>
- Standardized and interoperable mechanisms building on (1) to allow remote=
<br>
&nbsp; parties to know the provenance and characteristics of an entity that=
 may be<br>
&nbsp; requesting services.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:9.0pt;font-stretch: normal"><=
span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Courier">The Working Group will i=
dentify security goals which it expects a trustworthy<br>
execution context to address, which will assume the presence of Roots of<br=
>
Trust (as defined by NIST [SP800-164]). The detailed specification of such<=
br>
contexts is out of scope.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:1.5pt;margin-right:0in;m=
argin-bottom:1.5pt;margin-left:0in;font-stretch: normal">
<span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Courier">The Working Group will =
maintain close relationships with bodies undertaking<br>
complementary work streams in the area of remote attestation such as<br>
GlobalPlatform, Trusted Computing Group and FIDO Alliance.<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:1.5pt;margin-right:0in;m=
argin-bottom:1.5pt;margin-left:0in;font-stretch: normal">
<span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Courier">The Working Group will =
cooperate with the TEEP Working Group, which may<br>
generate requirements for claims relevant to TEE.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:1.5pt;margin-right:0in;m=
argin-bottom:1.5pt;margin-left:0in;font-stretch: normal;min-height: 13px">
<span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Courier"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:1.5pt;margin-right:0in;m=
argin-bottom:1.5pt;margin-left:0in;font-stretch: normal">
<span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Courier">Work Items<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:1.5pt;margin-right:0in;m=
argin-bottom:1.5pt;margin-left:0in;font-stretch: normal">
<span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Courier">----------<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:1.5pt;margin-right:0in;m=
argin-bottom:1.5pt;margin-left:0in;font-stretch: normal">
<span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Courier">The Working Group will =
develop specifications supporting the creation of<br>
interoperable remote attestation procedures for entities which incorporate&=
nbsp;<br>
Roots of Trust. The main deliverables are as follows.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:1.5pt;margin-right:0in;m=
argin-bottom:1.5pt;margin-left:0in;font-stretch: normal">
<span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Courier">- Produce a requirement=
s document establishing a common vocabulary for remote<br>
&nbsp; attestation, identifying mechanisms which will be supported for esta=
blishing<br>
&nbsp; trust between an entity and a remote party, and enumerating sample u=
se-cases<br>
&nbsp; for remote attestation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:1.5pt;margin-right:0in;m=
argin-bottom:1.5pt;margin-left:0in;font-stretch: normal">
<span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Courier">- Produce specification=
 text defining interoperable cross-platform claims which<br>
&nbsp; provide information about an entity in support of the required use-c=
ases, and<br>
&nbsp; extending the set of claims defined in RFC7519 and RFC8392. The spec=
ification<br>
&nbsp; will describe the syntax for each claim in at least the following fo=
rmats:<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; - CBOR [RFC7049]<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; - JSON [RFC7159]<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; - YANG [RFC6020]<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:1.5pt;margin-right:0in;m=
argin-bottom:1.5pt;margin-left:0in;font-stretch: normal">
<span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Courier">- Produce specification=
 text defining procedures and corresponding architectures<br>
&nbsp; supporting verification of claims within an attestation based on mea=
sured file<br>
&nbsp; execution procedures and supporting:<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; - Explicit attestation wherein a set of claims is transported=
 in the attestation;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; - Implicit attestation wherein a set of claims is implied by =
possession of a secret.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:1.5pt;margin-right:0in;m=
argin-bottom:1.5pt;margin-left:0in;font-stretch: normal">
<span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Courier">- Produce specification=
 text defining procedures and corresponding architectures<br>
&nbsp; supporting verification of claims encapsulated in:<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:1.5pt;margin-right:0in;m=
argin-bottom:1.5pt;margin-left:0in;font-stretch: normal">
<span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Courier">&nbsp; &nbsp; - CBOR We=
b Token structures [RFC8392]<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; - JSON Web Token structures [RFC7519]<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:1.5pt;margin-right:0in;m=
argin-bottom:1.5pt;margin-left:0in;font-stretch: normal">
<span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Courier">- Perform privacy analy=
sis of both claims and the cryptographic procedures used to<br>
&nbsp; establish trust. This information will be included as appropriate in=
 the<br>
&nbsp; deliverable specifications, and may imply extension of procedures de=
fined in<br>
&nbsp; other specifications in support of privacy goals.<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It seems to me that there are two ways to produce th=
e main specification deliverables. I have deliberately left the text above =
slightly vague on this.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-=
alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
A claims specification common to RATS and EAT with separate RATS and EAT pr=
ocedure specifications.<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso=
-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">
A claims specification also incorporating EAT procedures and a separate RAT=
S procedure specification. This would be my preferred option.
<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
<ul type=3D"disc">
<ul type=3D"circle">
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-=
alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1">
I believe there are very few procedures needed for EAT other than the possi=
ble need to support a nonce to ensure freshness<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
</ul>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Jeremy<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
Notice how by about the second paragraph (6tisch takes a bit longer), each<=
br>
gets into what the WG will do?<br>
<br>
--<br>
Michael Richardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr&#43;IETF@sandelman.ca">mcr&#43=
;IETF@sandelman.ca</a>&gt;, Sandelman Software Works<br>
-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
EAT mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:EAT@ietf.org">EAT@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/eat</a><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_f6602afcf1b0440d98f5ded158bfe572XCHRTP013ciscocom_--


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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
To: Carl Wallace <carl@redhoundsoftware.com>, Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>
CC: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>,  "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [EAT] [Rats]    Attestation BoF charter updates?
Thread-Index: AQHUavNRF3KZGpU4TEGGfYgrNJhz76UtFauAgAB27AD//5+qAA==
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 18:49:12 +0000
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Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 15:04:43 -0400
From: Carl Wallace <carl@redhoundsoftware.com>
To: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>
CC: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>,  "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: [EAT] [Rats]    Attestation BoF charter updates?
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT]     Attestation BoF charter updates?
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Inline..

From:  "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
Date:  Tuesday, October 23, 2018 at 2:49 PM
To:  Carl Wallace <carl@redhoundsoftware.com>, Jeremy O'Donoghue
<jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>
Cc:  Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "eat@ietf.org"
<eat@ietf.org>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Subject:  Re: [EAT] [Rats]    Attestation BoF charter updates?

> =20
> =20
>=20
> On 10/23/18, 10:34 AM, "EAT on behalf of Carl Wallace" <eat-bounces@ietf.=
org
> on behalf of carl@redhoundsoftware.com> wrote:
>=20
> =20
>=20
> <snip>
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> It would be interesting to understand your thinking a bit further. At on=
e
>> level it is fairly straightforward to define a claim whose value contain=
s an
>> X.509 certificate, but I suspect that binding may imply more than that.
>> [nms] It is also reasonable to consider an X.509 certificate as being an
>> object that contains a set of claims (rather than the other way around).
>=20
> [cw] Not if the goal is to prevent issuance of a certificate because
> provenance of a key cannot be confirmed. Having a self-issued cert contai=
n
> claims is fine, but this does not obviate the need to bind to issuance
> protocols to inform CA issuance.
>=20
> [nms] I wasn=E2=80=99t asserting that a certificate would be self-issued. This =
is why
> I think it makes sense to talk about a claimant. SP800-164 refers to this=
 as
> either a =E2=80=98device owner=E2=80=99 or =E2=80=98information owner=E2=80=99. I=E2=80=99m OK with the=
se terms too.
> The expectation is the device owner during manufacturing  (aka mfg=E2=80=99r) w=
ill
> know which trust relevant claims can be asserted. They could assert them =
by
> issuing a certificate containing the claims. The verifier/relying party t=
rusts
> the mfg=E2=80=99r to be an authoritative source regarding how a device (but mor=
e
> precisely, how the root-of-trust) was made. If a key is created during mf=
g
> time and the mfg issues evidence (aka a certificate) of that, then it ser=
ves
> as provenance as long as the verifier / relying party trusts the manufact=
urer
> to correctly embed the key. Confirmation can be achieved via manual inspe=
ction
> of the manufacturing process. Nevertheless, the verifier is trusting the =
mfg
> to a certain degree.

[CW] You are referring to a certificate issued to the device by the
manufacturer. I am referring to certifying keys generated by a hardware
crypto module on the device once it is in the hands of a user.  I don't
disagree the verifier must trust the manufacturer when verifying the
attestation, I am suggesting that the verifier is a CA who will have plucke=
d
an attestation from a certificate management message and will, amongst othe=
r
checks that need to be standardized, confirm the public key in the
certificate request corresponds to a claim in the attestation.



--B_3623151892_17738363
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<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION"><div style=3D"font-family:Calibri; font-size:1=
1pt; text-align:left; color:black; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: =
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an style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span> "Smith, Ned" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:n=
ed.smith@intel.com">ned.smith@intel.com</a>&gt;<br><span style=3D"font-weight:=
bold">Date: </span> Tuesday, October 23, 2018 at 2:49 PM<br><span style=3D"fon=
t-weight:bold">To: </span> Carl Wallace &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:carl@redhoundsof=
tware.com">carl@redhoundsoftware.com</a>&gt;, Jeremy O'Donoghue &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com">jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com</a>&gt;<br><spa=
n style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span> Michael Richardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca">mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca</a>&gt;, "<a href=3D"mailto:eat=
@ietf.org">eat@ietf.org</a>" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eat@ietf.org">eat@ietf.org<=
/a>&gt;, "<a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org">rats@ietf.org</a>" &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:rats@ietf.org">rats@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">S=
ubject: </span> Re: [EAT] [Rats]    Attestation BoF charter updates?<br></di=
v><div><br></div><blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"=
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ont-size:10.0pt;mso-contextual-alternates:yes"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><=
div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">On 10/23/18, 10:34 AM=
, "EAT on behalf of Carl Wallace" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org">=
eat-bounces@ietf.org</a> on behalf of
<a href=3D"mailto:carl@redhoundsoftware.com">carl@redhoundsoftware.com</a>&gt=
; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-l=
eft:.5in"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin=
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&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-=
alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in">
It would be interesting to understand your thinking a bit further. At one l=
evel it is fairly straightforward to define a claim whose value contains an =
X.509 certificate, but I suspect that binding may imply more than that.<span=
 style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" s=
tyle=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in"><=
span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;mso-contextual-alternates:yes">[nms] It is also=
 reasonable to consider an X.509 certificate as being an object that contain=
s a set of claims (rather than the other way around).</span><o:p></o:p></p><=
/div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-=
left:.5in">[cw] Not if the goal is to prevent issuance of a certificate beca=
use provenance of a key cannot be confirmed. Having a self-issued cert conta=
in claims is fine, but this does not obviate the need to bind to issuance
 protocols to inform CA issuance.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">[nms] I wasn&#8217;t asserting that a ce=
rtificate would be self-issued. This is why I think it makes sense to talk a=
bout a claimant. SP800-164 refers to this as either a &#8216;device owner&#8=
217; or &#8216;information owner&#8217;. I&#8217;m OK with
 these terms too. The expectation is the device owner during manufacturing =
&nbsp;(aka mfg&#8217;r) will know which trust relevant claims can be asserte=
d. They could assert them by issuing a certificate containing the claims. Th=
e verifier/relying party trusts the mfg&#8217;r
 to be an authoritative source regarding how a device (but more precisely, =
how the root-of-trust) was made. If a key is created during mfg time and the=
 mfg issues evidence (aka a certificate) of that, then it serves as provenan=
ce as long as the verifier / relying
 party trusts the manufacturer to correctly embed the key. Confirmation can=
 be achieved via manual inspection of the manufacturing process. Nevertheles=
s, the verifier is trusting the mfg to a certain degree.</p></div></div></di=
v></div></blockquote></span><div><br></div><div>[CW] You are referring to a =
certificate issued to the device by the manufacturer. I am referring to cert=
ifying keys generated by a hardware crypto module on the device once it is i=
n the hands of a user. &nbsp;I don't disagree the verifier must trust the ma=
nufacturer when verifying the attestation, I am suggesting that the verifier=
 is a CA who will have plucked an attestation from a certificate management =
message and will, amongst other checks that need to be standardized, confirm=
 the public key in the certificate request corresponds to a claim in the att=
estation.&nbsp;</div></body></html>

--B_3623151892_17738363--



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From: Giridhar Mandyam <mandyam@qti.qualcomm.com>
To: Carl Wallace <carl@redhoundsoftware.com>, Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [EAT] [Rats]    Attestation BoF charter updates?
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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
To: Carl Wallace <carl@redhoundsoftware.com>, Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>
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Thread-Topic: [EAT] [Rats]    Attestation BoF charter updates?
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--_000_FCF1711D49364D35A75D84B88C076151intelcom_--


From nobody Tue Oct 23 12:57:05 2018
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Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 15:56:44 -0400
From: Carl Wallace <carl@redhoundsoftware.com>
To: Giridhar Mandyam <mandyam@qti.qualcomm.com>, Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <D7F4F507.C3DB6%carl@redhoundsoftware.com>
Thread-Topic: [EAT] [Rats]    Attestation BoF charter updates?
References: <D7F4B1E4.C3BF8%carl@redhoundsoftware.com> <e0c3f17f709140b7a546eeced55d522b@NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT]     Attestation BoF charter updates?
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From:  Giridhar Mandyam <mandyam@qti.qualcomm.com>
Date:  Tuesday, October 23, 2018 at 3:53 PM
To:  Carl Wallace <carl@redhoundsoftware.com>, Jeremy O'Donoghue
<jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
Cc:  "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>
Subject:  RE: [EAT] [Rats]    Attestation BoF charter updates?

> [CW] As noted before, I'd like to see binding to certificate enrollment
> protocols included here as well. This is something we are doing today, wi=
thout
> standards grounding (as illustrated in pile of attestations shared via Gi=
thub
> a few weeks back).
> =20
> Why isn=E2=80=99t ACME applicable  (https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/acme/about/=
)?
> Granted, it is optimized for the web currently.  But from a message forma=
t
> perspective I don=E2=80=99t think we need to re-invent the wheel.
[CW] I have not suggested defining new certificate management specs, just
codifying the binding of attestations to one or more certificate management
specs. In my case, I am using SCEP (for legacy installed base purposes).
> =20

> -Giri Mandyam, Qualcomm
> =20
>=20
> From: EAT <eat-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Carl Wallace
> Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2018 8:15 AM
> To: Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>; Michael Richardson
> <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
> Cc: rats@ietf.org; eat@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [EAT] [Rats] Attestation BoF charter updates?
> =20
>>=20
>>=20
>> <snip>
>> Work Items
>> ----------
>> The Working Group will develop specifications supporting the creation of
>> interoperable remote attestation procedures for entities which incorpora=
te
>> Roots of Trust. The main deliverables are as follows.
>> - Produce a requirements document establishing a common vocabulary for r=
emote
>>   attestation, identifying mechanisms which will be supported for
>> establishing
>>   trust between an entity and a remote party, and enumerating sample
>> use-cases
>>   for remote attestation.
>> - Produce specification text defining interoperable cross-platform claim=
s
>> which
>>   provide information about an entity in support of the required use-cas=
es,
>> and
>>   extending the set of claims defined in RFC7519 and RFC8392. The
>> specification
>>   will describe the syntax for each claim in at least the following form=
ats:
>>     - CBOR [RFC7049]
>>     - JSON [RFC7159]
>>     - YANG [RFC6020]
>=20
> [CW] ASN.1 is already player for a number of attestation formats. Any rea=
son
> to exclude it?
>=20
> =20
>>=20
>> - Produce specification text defining procedures and corresponding
>> architectures
>>   supporting verification of claims within an attestation based on measu=
red
>> file
>>   execution procedures and supporting:
>>     - Explicit attestation wherein a set of claims is transported in the
>> attestation;
>>     - Implicit attestation wherein a set of claims is implied by possess=
ion
>> of a secret.
>> - Produce specification text defining procedures and corresponding
>> architectures
>>   supporting verification of claims encapsulated in:
>>     - CBOR Web Token structures [RFC8392]
>>     - JSON Web Token structures [RFC7519]
>=20
> [CW] As noted before, I'd like to see binding to certificate enrollment
> protocols included here as well. This is something we are doing today, wi=
thout
> standards grounding (as illustrated in pile of attestations shared via Gi=
thub
> a few weeks back).
>=20
> =20
>>=20
>> - Perform privacy analysis of both claims and the cryptographic procedur=
es
>> used to
>>   establish trust. This information will be included as appropriate in t=
he
>>   deliverable specifications, and may imply extension of procedures defi=
ned
>> in
>>   other specifications in support of privacy goals.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> It seems to me that there are two ways to produce the main specification
>> deliverables. I have deliberately left the text above slightly vague on =
this.
>> * A claims specification common to RATS and EAT with separate RATS and E=
AT
>> procedure specifications.
>> * A claims specification also incorporating EAT procedures and a separat=
e
>> RATS procedure specification. This would be my preferred option.
>>> * I believe there are very few procedures needed for EAT other than the
>>> possible need to support a nonce to ensure freshness
>> =20
>>=20
>> Jeremy
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Notice how by about the second paragraph (6tisch takes a bit longer), e=
ach
>>> gets into what the WG will do?
>>>=20
>>> --
>>> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
>>> -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> EAT mailing list
>>> EAT@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat
>> =20
>> _______________________________________________ RATS mailing list
>> RATS@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats



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pan id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION"><div style=3D"font-family:Calibri; font-size:11p=
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R-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt"><span=
 style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span> Giridhar Mandyam &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:mandyam@qti.qualcomm.com">mandyam@qti.qualcomm.com</a>&gt;<br><span style=3D"=
font-weight:bold">Date: </span> Tuesday, October 23, 2018 at 3:53 PM<br><spa=
n style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </span> Carl Wallace &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:carl=
@redhoundsoftware.com">carl@redhoundsoftware.com</a>&gt;, Jeremy O'Donoghue =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com">jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com</a>=
&gt;, Michael Richardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca">mcr+ietf=
@sandelman.ca</a>&gt;<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span> "<a href=
=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org">rats@ietf.org</a>" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org=
">rats@ietf.org</a>&gt;, "<a href=3D"mailto:eat@ietf.org">eat@ietf.org</a>" &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:eat@ietf.org">eat@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><span style=3D"font-we=
ight:bold">Subject: </span> RE: [EAT] [Rats]    Attestation BoF charter upda=
tes?<br></div><div><br></div><blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQU=
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le"><div class=3D"WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10=
.5pt;color:black">[CW] As noted before, I'd like to see binding to certifica=
te enrollment protocols included here as well. This is something we are doin=
g today, without standards grounding (as illustrated in pile
 of attestations shared via Github a few weeks back).&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Why isn=
&#8217;t ACME applicable &nbsp;(<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/acm=
e/about/">https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/acme/about/</a>)?&nbsp; &nbsp;Gran=
ted, it is optimized for the web currently.&nbsp; But from a message format =
perspective I don&#8217;t think we
 need to re-invent the wheel.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></blockquote>=
</span><div>[CW] I have not suggested defining new certificate management sp=
ecs, just codifying the binding of attestations to one or more certificate m=
anagement specs. In my case, I am using SCEP (for legacy installed base purp=
oses).</div><span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION"><blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTR=
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n><div><br></div><span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION"><blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK=
_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 =
5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;"><div xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"ur=
n:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:of=
fice:word" xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D=
"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purpl=
e"><div class=3D"WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.=
5pt;color:black">-Giri Mandyam, Qualcomm<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E=
1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> EAT=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eat-bounces@ietf.org">eat-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; <b>O=
n Behalf Of </b>
Carl Wallace<br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, October 23, 2018 8:15 AM<br><b>To:</b=
> Jeremy O'Donoghue &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com">jodonogh@=
qti.qualcomm.com</a>&gt;; Michael Richardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr+ietf@sa=
ndelman.ca">mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:rats=
@ietf.org">rats@ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:eat@ietf.org">eat@ietf.org</a>=
<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [EAT] [Rats] Attestation BoF charter updates?<o:p></=
o:p></p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><blockquote st=
yle=3D"margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in"><div><div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoN=
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margin-left:0in"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><br>
&lt;snip&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-to=
p-alt:1.5pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:1.5pt;margin-left:0in;font-stretc=
h: normal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Courier;color:black">Wor=
k Items<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:=
1.5pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:1.5pt;margin-left:0in;font-stretch: nor=
mal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Courier;color:black">---------=
-<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:1.5pt;=
margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:1.5pt;margin-left:0in;font-stretch: normal"><=
span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Courier;color:black">The Working Gro=
up will develop specifications supporting the creation of<br>
interoperable remote attestation procedures for entities which incorporate&=
nbsp;<br>
Roots of Trust. The main deliverables are as follows.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:1.5pt;margin-right:0in;=
margin-bottom:1.5pt;margin-left:0in;font-stretch: normal"><span style=3D"font-=
size:8.5pt;font-family:Courier;color:black">- Produce a requirements documen=
t establishing a common vocabulary for remote<br>
&nbsp; attestation, identifying mechanisms which will be supported for esta=
blishing<br>
&nbsp; trust between an entity and a remote party, and enumerating sample u=
se-cases<br>
&nbsp; for remote attestation.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" st=
yle=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:1.5pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:1.5pt;margin-le=
ft:0in;font-stretch: normal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Courie=
r;color:black">- Produce specification text defining interoperable cross-pla=
tform claims which<br>
&nbsp; provide information about an entity in support of the required use-c=
ases, and<br>
&nbsp; extending the set of claims defined in RFC7519 and RFC8392. The spec=
ification<br>
&nbsp; will describe the syntax for each claim in at least the following fo=
rmats:<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; - CBOR [RFC7049]<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; - JSON [RFC7159]<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; - YANG [RFC6020]<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div=
></blockquote><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:=
black">[CW] ASN.1 is already player for a number of attestation formats. Any=
 reason to exclude it?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
<span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div=
><blockquote style=3D"margin-left:3.75pt;margin-right:0in" id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATT=
RIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-mar=
gin-top-alt:1.5pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:1.5pt;margin-left:0in"><spa=
n style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Courier;color:black">- Produce specific=
ation text defining procedures and corresponding architectures<br>
&nbsp; supporting verification of claims within an attestation based on mea=
sured file<br>
&nbsp; execution procedures and supporting:<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; - Explicit attestation wherein a set of claims is transported=
 in the attestation;<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; - Implicit attestation wherein a set of claims is implied by =
possession of a secret.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso=
-margin-top-alt:1.5pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:1.5pt;margin-left:0in;f=
ont-stretch: normal"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Courier;color:=
black">- Produce specification text defining procedures and corresponding ar=
chitectures<br>
&nbsp; supporting verification of claims encapsulated in:<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:1.5pt;margin-right:0in;ma=
rgin-bottom:1.5pt;margin-left:0in;font-stretch: normal"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:8.5pt;font-family:Courier;color:black">&nbsp; &nbsp; - CBOR Web Token str=
uctures [RFC8392]<br>
&nbsp; &nbsp; - JSON Web Token structures [RFC7519]<o:p></o:p></span></p></=
div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size:10.5pt;color:black">[CW] As noted before, I'd like to see binding to=
 certificate enrollment protocols included here as well. This is something w=
e are doing today, without standards grounding (as illustrated in pile
 of attestations shared via Github a few weeks back).&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:bl=
ack"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-left:3.75pt=
;margin-right:0in" id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE"><div><div><div><d=
iv><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:1.5pt;margin-right:0in;mar=
gin-bottom:1.5pt;margin-left:0in"><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:C=
ourier;color:black">- Perform privacy analysis of both claims and the crypto=
graphic procedures used to<br>
&nbsp; establish trust. This information will be included as appropriate in=
 the<br>
&nbsp; deliverable specifications, and may imply extension of procedures de=
fined in<br>
&nbsp; other specifications in support of privacy goals.<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black=
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:10.5pt;color:black">It seems to me that there are two ways to produ=
ce the main specification deliverables. I have deliberately left the text ab=
ove slightly vague on this.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><ul type=3D"disc">=
<li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-=
bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">A cl=
aims specification common to RATS and EAT with separate RATS and EAT procedu=
re specifications.<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:=
black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo1"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">A claims specification also incorporati=
ng EAT procedures and a separate RATS procedure specification. This would be=
 my preferred option.
<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul><ul type=3D"disc"><ul type=3D"circle"><li class=3D"Ms=
oNormal" style=3D"color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:au=
to;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo1"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt">I believe there a=
re very few procedures needed for EAT other than the possible need to suppor=
t a nonce to ensure freshness<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul></ul></div><div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:=
p></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;c=
olor:black">Jeremy<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:=
5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-=
size:10.5pt;color:black"><br>
Notice how by about the second paragraph (6tisch takes a bit longer), each<=
br>
gets into what the WG will do?<br><br>
--<br>
Michael Richardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca">mcr+IETF@sand=
elman.ca</a>&gt;, Sandelman Software Works<br>
-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
EAT mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:EAT@ietf.org">EAT@ietf.org</a><br><a hr=
ef=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/=
listinfo/eat</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></blockquote></div><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;colo=
r:black">_______________________________________________ RATS mailing list
<a href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org">RATS@ietf.org</a> <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.=
org/mailman/listinfo/rats">
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></bloc=
kquote></div></div></div></blockquote></span></body></html>

--B_3623155011_17934164--



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Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2018 15:57:35 -0400
From: Carl Wallace <carl@redhoundsoftware.com>
To: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>
CC: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>,  "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <D7F4F54C.C3DB8%carl@redhoundsoftware.com>
Thread-Topic: [EAT] [Rats]    Attestation BoF charter updates?
References: <D7F4B1E4.C3BF8%carl@redhoundsoftware.com> <D0C08E47-DBB6-4AAD-95EF-F952155D3152@qti.qualcomm.com> <581DD29C-85D9-4BD8-A0EE-41761ED773B4@intel.com> <D7F4D350.C3CFF%carl@redhoundsoftware.com> <FFA0BB14-48AB-45CE-8D7A-53D43821FC7D@intel.com> <D7F4E84F.C3D97%carl@redhoundsoftware.com> <FCF1711D-4936-4D35-A75D-84B88C076151@intel.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT]     Attestation BoF charter updates?
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<snip>
> [nms] Right. In order for the CA (verifier) to distinguish the certifying=
 key
> is an =E2=80=98attestable key=E2=80=99 vs. a traditional CSR. The CA should look for =
a
> signature from the mfg cert over the CSR (certificate management message?=
)
> containing the generated public key. I=E2=80=99m still not seeing where there i=
s a
> self-signed (issued) certificate in the equation.
This began with request to codify binding to certificate request protocols,
not for a self signed certificate.



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LK_SRC_BODY_SECTION"><blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" sty=
le=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;"><div xml=
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k=3D"purple"><div class=3D"WordSection1"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"=
font-size:10.0pt;mso-contextual-alternates:yes">[nms] Right. In order for th=
e CA (verifier) to distinguish the certifying key is an &#8216;attestable ke=
y&#8217; vs. a traditional CSR. The CA should look for a signature from the =
mfg cert
 over the CSR (certificate management message?) containing the generated pu=
blic key. I&#8217;m still not seeing where there is a self-signed (issued) c=
ertificate in the equation.</span></p></div></div></div></div></blockquote><=
/span><div>This began with request to codify binding to certificate request =
protocols, not for a self signed certificate.&nbsp;</div><span id=3D"OLK_SRC_B=
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To: "Jeremy O'Donoghue" <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT] Attestation BoF charter updates?
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Jeremy, that's awesome work.
Thank you very much for these edits.

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-




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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT]  Attestation BoF charter updates?
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Eric Voit (evoit) <evoit@cisco.com> wrote:
    > Could you talk about how these elements are covered (or not)? For
    > context, I am working from the perspective of remote attestation
    > application developer trying to standardize the interfaces between a
    > controller (which is acting as a claim verifier) and a network element
    > (which includes TCG based subsystems.)

These are good questions, but are they questions that the *CHARTER* of
the *WORKING GROUP* needs to answer?  Sure the *WORKING GROUP* needs to
answer them, but please remember that the charter is META.

    > =C2=B7 How do we know which root of trust which was used to generate =
the
    > attestation evidence (e.g., application event logs), and how does a

Good question... put it in the Internet Draft.

=2D-
]               Never tell me the odds!                 | ipv6 mesh network=
s [
]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works        | network architect=
  [
]     mcr@sandelman.ca  http://www.sandelman.ca/        |   ruby on rails  =
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From: Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>
To: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
CC: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [EAT] [Rats]  Attestation BoF charter updates?
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Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 08:46:18 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT]   Attestation BoF charter updates?
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From: Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>
To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
CC: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [EAT] [Rats]  Attestation BoF charter updates?
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Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 11:36:38 +0000
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From: Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>
To: Carl Wallace <carl@redhoundsoftware.com>
CC: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [EAT] [Rats]    Attestation BoF charter updates?
Thread-Index: AQHUavXP5xlM3Oo/GUa0I+2fOxOmhqUs9bMAgAAVBwCAAARWgIAADiwAgAAAmYCAARnZgA==
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 12:46:21 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT]     Attestation BoF charter updates?
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From nobody Wed Oct 24 05:56:03 2018
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT]  Attestation BoF charter updates?
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Hi all,

based on Jeremy's proposal we did another big refactoring - also tried 
to address everybody's comments, inputs and concerns.

> https://github.com/ietf-rats/charter/blob/RC3/ietf-rats-charter.md

Please note that this charter text is intended to be a first phase, 
which is the reason why, for example, there still is no mentioning about 
provisioning, profiles, or more details about out-of-band dependencies.

As Michael highlighted, most types of content belong into drafts. That 
said - on one hand the charter is a kind of "contract" wrt to scope and 
output, on the other hand we do not want to boil the ocean (at least not 
all at once...).

Viele Grüße,

Henk

On 10/24/2018 01:36 PM, Jeremy O'Donoghue wrote:
> HI Eric,
> 
>> On 23 Oct 2018, at 19:04, Eric Voit (evoit) <evoit@cisco.com 
>> <mailto:evoit@cisco.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Jeremy,
>> Thanks for taking a cut at this charter simplification.  There are a 
>> few areas covered within theGitHub Goals 
>> <https://github.com/ietf-rats/charter/blob/RC2/ietf-rats-charter.md>which 
>> I can’t easily map to your text below.  Could you talk about how these 
>> elements are covered (or not)?   For context, I am working from the 
>> perspective ofremote attestation application 
>> <https://www.cisco.com/c/dam/en/us/td/docs/cloud-systems-management/application-policy-infrastructure-controller-enterprise-module/1-5-x/integrity_verification/user-guide/Cisco_Integrity_Verification_Application_APIC-EM_User_Guide_1_5_0_x.pdf>developer 
>> trying to standardize the interfaces between a controller (which is 
>> acting as a claim verifier) and a network element (which includes TCG 
>> based subsystems.)
>> For my application to work properly, there are several things needed 
>> within a network controller to validate the asserted claims coming out 
>> of a router.  These include:
>> ·How do we expose the attestation evidence which can be used to 
>> validate asserted claims?
> 
> I think that the need to address this is covered sufficiently for a WG 
> Charter by the statement "Produce a specification defining procedures 
> and corresponding architectures  supporting verification of Claims".
> 
> If verification of Claims requires specific forms of attestation 
> evidence (e.g. a set of measurements generated by a TPM), then it is 
> properly a matter for an RFC to specify this, as Michael suggests.
> 
>> ·How do we know which root of trust which was used to generate the 
>> attestation evidence (e.g., application event logs), and how does a 
>> verifier differentiate this from the root-of-trust which asserts 
>> claims made upon this evidence?
> 
> Again, I think this is a matter for specification rather than charter. 
> There are a number of different ways in which Roots of Trust can be 
> realised and many possible device architectures. The EAT draft allows 
> one RoT to include an attestation generated by a different RoT, for 
> example. I believe the RATS draft also provides technical mechanisms by 
> which this can be achieved.
> 
>> ·What entities are allowed to read the info asserted claims?  What 
>> subset of these can see the raw attestation evidence?
>> These questions are significant because routers/switches are not 
>> monolithic devices.  In fact, they are composed of subsystems with 
>> different levels of trustworthiness. As the IETF often aims at 
>> protocol specifications at the inter-device level, I am looking for 
>> coverage of such questions in the charter.
> 
> I agree with you here as the same issue applies to claims with privacy 
> implications. As an example, I may wish to present a unique device ID to 
> a social media website but not my location.
> 
> I have added bullet point 3 to the draft - which I will post separately. 
> Let me know if you think this addresses your concerns sufficiently.
> 
> Best regards
> Jeremy
> 
>> Thanks,
>> Eric
>> *From:*Jeremy O'Donoghue, October 23, 2018 10:40 AM
>>
>> On 22 Oct 2018, at 22:01, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca 
>> <mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>     Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com
>>     <mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>> wrote:
>>
>>         This is a very useful contribution, Laurence.
>>
>>
>>
>>         The current draft text is too strongly biased towards
>>         attestation based
>>         on measurement, and does not adequately cover other mechanisms
>>         which
>>         are already
>>
>>
>>     But, it's for the charter, for the WG, it's not a treatise on
>>     attestation
>>     itself.
>>
>>     This is all supposed to be *meta* text about attestation, about
>>     what we want
>>     to say about attestation in the documents, not about what
>>     attestation is.
>>
>>     Please go read some other IETF charters:
>>
>>     https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/6lo/about/
>>     https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/6tisch/about/
>>     https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/suit/about/
>>
>> Fair comment.
>> We have two existing proposals - EAT and RATS - which address a 
>> similar problem space but using different mechanisms. While I believe 
>> the RATS and EAT contributors are in broad agreement that there is 
>> significant benefit in bringing both work streams under a single 
>> umbrella, trying to properly incorporate EAT through incremental 
>> modification to the draft RATS WG charter text is proving challenging.
>> The below probably diverges too far from the current text for some 
>> tastes, but it may address your point and provide a basis for 
>> discussion (at this point the GitHub draft 
>> <https://github.com/ietf-rats/charter/blob/RC2/ietf-rats-charter.md> seems 
>> a long way behind the list). It is deliberately significantly shorter 
>> than the current draft - I have tried to re-use as much existing text 
>> as possible, but it is heavily re-organised and abridged.
>> I have taken on board the comment from Carsten that perhaps a minimum 
>> level of terminology is acceptable in charter text, but deliberately 
>> tried to keep the language simple and fairly generic to enable the 
>> proper work of terminology definition to take place in the 
>> requirements document as you suggest.
>>
>> Introduction
>>
>> ------------
>>
>> Remote attestation procedures can be incorporated in network protocols to
>> provide the basis for establishing claims about an entity in a trustworthy
>> manner. Such claims may include, but are not limited to, device identity,
>> manufacturing origin, system integrity, configuration, operational 
>> state and
>> measurements of steps which led to the operational state. Such procedures
>> expose entity characteristics in the form of claim sets which allow remote
>> parties to establish the trustworthiness of a device, provide evidence 
>> that a
>> particular set of operations and functions are supported and/or that the
>> entity is actually what it claims to be.
>>
>> In the absence of such procedures, while domain-specific attestation
>> mechanisms such as TCG TPM, FIDO Alliance attestation and Android Keystore
>> attestation exist, there is no common way for a remote party to tell 
>> if data
>> originates from a trustworthy device (e.g. a Trusted System designed to
>> support a specific set of operations/functionalities) or not.
>>
>> The following minimal terminology is defined for the purposes of 
>> clarifying the
>> Working Group charter text:
>>
>> - attestation: a set of claims which can be verified as originating in an
>>           entity.
>>
>> - claim:  as defined in RFC7519.
>>
>> - entity: a device or device sub-module that can generate a claim or 
>> set of
>>           claims which can be verified by a remote party.
>>
>> - remote party: an actor remote from an entity that wishes to verify 
>> whether
>>           a claim or set of claims originated in a given entity.
>>
>> Description of the Working Group
>>
>> --------------------------------
>>
>> The Working Group will define:
>>
>> - Standardized and interoperable mechanisms to establish a sufficient 
>> level
>>   of confidence that data originates from a trustworthy entity designed to
>>   support a specific set of operations/functionalities.
>> - Standardized and interoperable mechanisms building on (1) to allow 
>> remote
>>   parties to know the provenance and characteristics of an entity that 
>> may be
>>   requesting services.
>>
>> The Working Group will identify security goals which it expects a 
>> trustworthy
>> execution context to address, which will assume the presence of Roots of
>> Trust (as defined by NIST [SP800-164]). The detailed specification of such
>> contexts is out of scope.
>>
>> The Working Group will maintain close relationships with bodies 
>> undertaking
>> complementary work streams in the area of remote attestation such as
>> GlobalPlatform, Trusted Computing Group and FIDO Alliance.
>>
>> The Working Group will cooperate with the TEEP Working Group, which may
>> generate requirements for claims relevant to TEE.
>>
>> Work Items
>>
>> ----------
>>
>> The Working Group will develop specifications supporting the creation of
>> interoperable remote attestation procedures for entities which 
>> incorporate
>> Roots of Trust. The main deliverables are as follows.
>>
>> - Produce a requirements document establishing a common vocabulary for 
>> remote
>>   attestation, identifying mechanisms which will be supported for 
>> establishing
>>   trust between an entity and a remote party, and enumerating sample 
>> use-cases
>>   for remote attestation.
>>
>> - Produce specification text defining interoperable cross-platform 
>> claims which
>>   provide information about an entity in support of the required 
>> use-cases, and
>>   extending the set of claims defined in RFC7519 and RFC8392. The 
>> specification
>>   will describe the syntax for each claim in at least the following 
>> formats:
>>     - CBOR [RFC7049]
>>     - JSON [RFC7159]
>>     - YANG [RFC6020]
>>
>> - Produce specification text defining procedures and corresponding 
>> architectures
>>   supporting verification of claims within an attestation based on 
>> measured file
>>   execution procedures and supporting:
>>     - Explicit attestation wherein a set of claims is transported in 
>> the attestation;
>>     - Implicit attestation wherein a set of claims is implied by 
>> possession of a secret.
>>
>> - Produce specification text defining procedures and corresponding 
>> architectures
>>   supporting verification of claims encapsulated in:
>>
>>     - CBOR Web Token structures [RFC8392]
>>     - JSON Web Token structures [RFC7519]
>>
>> - Perform privacy analysis of both claims and the cryptographic 
>> procedures used to
>>   establish trust. This information will be included as appropriate in the
>>   deliverable specifications, and may imply extension of procedures 
>> defined in
>>   other specifications in support of privacy goals.
>>
>> It seems to me that there are two ways to produce the main 
>> specification deliverables. I have deliberately left the text above 
>> slightly vague on this.
>>
>>   * A claims specification common to RATS and EAT with separate RATS
>>     and EAT procedure specifications.
>>   * A claims specification also incorporating EAT procedures and a
>>     separate RATS procedure specification. This would be my preferred
>>     option.
>>
>>       o I believe there are very few procedures needed for EAT other
>>         than the possible need to support a nonce to ensure freshness
>>
>> Jeremy
>>
>>
>>     Notice how by about the second paragraph (6tisch takes a bit
>>     longer), each
>>     gets into what the WG will do?
>>
>>     --
>>     Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca
>>     <mailto:mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>>, Sandelman Software Works
>>     -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     EAT mailing list
>>     EAT@ietf.org <mailto:EAT@ietf.org>
>>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat
>>
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> EAT mailing list
> EAT@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat
> 


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From: Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>
To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
CC: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>,  "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [EAT] [Rats]  Attestation BoF charter updates?
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From nobody Wed Oct 24 07:19:02 2018
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From: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
cc: "Jeremy O'Donoghue" <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>, "Eric Voit \(evoit\)" <evoit@cisco.com>, "rats\@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, "eat\@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT]  Attestation BoF charter updates?
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Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
    > based on Jeremy's proposal we did another big refactoring - also tried to
    > address everybody's comments, inputs and concerns.

    >> https://github.com/ietf-rats/charter/blob/RC3/ietf-rats-charter.md

Well done!
I can live with this text.

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Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-




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From: Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>
To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
CC: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [EAT] [Rats] Attestation BoF charter updates?
Thread-Index: AQHUa5jws5Kikd8Yz0eHI2cCltl68KUuUD8AgAACe4A=
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 14:27:44 +0000
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References: <5D773C02-5083-4B10-A705-782E28FD8ADB@island-resort.com> <f84515dd-2e1a-7e66-7c23-b16f8f425d2a@sit.fraunhofer.de> <3347AA26-3FA1-4067-8378-51B533BA77FB@island-resort.com> <570FEF0C-FD3A-4EBF-B8E6-7B13D2FD8E22@qti.qualcomm.com> <7544.1540242117@localhost> <46150D67-97E7-457F-9C8B-D2B3060978CA@qti.qualcomm.com> <f6602afcf1b0440d98f5ded158bfe572@XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com> <0771A502-32EF-46E9-95FB-55BE0FF04634@qti.qualcomm.com> <54613a6a-48f2-2301-5ebf-f1eb9fa208e4@sit.fraunhofer.de> <18027.1540390730@localhost>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT]  Attestation BoF charter updates?
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I can also live with the new text.

It may be worth double checking the mail I sent a couple of hours back (e-m=
ail crossed Henk's contribution, unfortunately) which addressed comments on=
 my text, although I think you have captured everything except:

3. Standardized and interoperable mechanisms to protect Claims which may ne=
ed to
   be protected from unauthorised disclosure for privacy and/or security
   reasons.

I would be OK leaving that out of the charter although it would certainly b=
e a technical goal of the work on EAT - others may disagree.

Jeremy

On 24 Oct 2018, at 15:18, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca<mailto:=
mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>> wrote:


Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fra=
unhofer.de>> wrote:
based on Jeremy's proposal we did another big refactoring - also tried to
address everybody's comments, inputs and concerns.

https://github.com/ietf-rats/charter/blob/RC3/ietf-rats-charter.md

Well done!
I can live with this text.

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca<mailto:mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>>, S=
andelman Software Works
-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-





--_000_382E3F35F9EC4FA78478A7F504CC69B5qtiqualcommcom_
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<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii"=
>
</head>
<body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break:=
 after-white-space;" class=3D"">
I can also live with the new text.
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">It may be worth double checking the mail I sent a couple of=
 hours back (e-mail crossed Henk's contribution, unfortunately) which addre=
ssed comments on my text, although I think you have captured everything exc=
ept:</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" color=3D"#942192" class=3D"" sty=
le=3D"font-size: 11px;">3. Standardized and interoperable mechanisms to pro=
tect Claims which may need to</font></div>
<div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" color=3D"#942192" class=3D"" sty=
le=3D"font-size: 11px;">&nbsp; &nbsp;be protected from unauthorised disclos=
ure for privacy and/or security</font></div>
<div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier New" color=3D"#942192" class=3D"" sty=
le=3D"font-size: 11px;">&nbsp; &nbsp;reasons.</font></div>
</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">I would be OK leaving that out of the charter although it w=
ould certainly be a technical goal of the work on EAT - others may disagree=
.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Jeremy<br class=3D"">
<div><br class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">On 24 Oct 2018, at 15:18, Michael Richardson &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:mcr&#43;ietf@sandelman.ca" class=3D"">mcr&#43;ietf@sandelman.ca</a>=
&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" class=
=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">based on Jeremy's proposal we did anot=
her big refactoring - also tried to<br class=3D"">
address everybody's comments, inputs and concerns.<br class=3D"">
</blockquote>
<br class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><a href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-rat=
s/charter/blob/RC3/ietf-rats-charter.md" class=3D"">https://github.com/ietf=
-rats/charter/blob/RC3/ietf-rats-charter.md</a><br class=3D"">
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<br class=3D"">
Well done!<br class=3D"">
I can live with this text.<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
--<br class=3D"">
Michael Richardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr&#43;IETF@sandelman.ca" class=
=3D"">mcr&#43;IETF@sandelman.ca</a>&gt;, Sandelman Software Works<br class=
=3D"">
-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class=3D"">
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_382E3F35F9EC4FA78478A7F504CC69B5qtiqualcommcom_--


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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
CC: "Jeremy O'Donoghue" <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [EAT] [Rats] Attestation BoF charter updates?
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Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 14:53:53 +0000
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I am good with the text as well.  =20

> From: Michael Richardson, October 24, 2018 10:19 AM
>=20
> Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
>     > based on Jeremy's proposal we did another big refactoring - also tr=
ied to
>     > address everybody's comments, inputs and concerns.
>=20
>     >> https://github.com/ietf-rats/charter/blob/RC3/ietf-rats-charter.md
>=20
> Well done!
> I can live with this text.
>=20
> --
> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works  -
> =3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
>=20
>=20


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From: Michael Richardson <mcr@sandelman.ca>
To: "Jeremy O'Donoghue" <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>
cc: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT]  Attestation BoF charter updates?
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Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com> wrote:
    > on my text, although I think you have captured everything except:

    > 3. Standardized and interoperable mechanisms to protect Claims which
    > may need to
    > be protected from unauthorised disclosure for privacy and/or security
    > reasons.

That sounds like a friendly amendment.


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CC: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT]     Attestation BoF charter updates?
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Please all keep in mind that we are intending to cut work items into phases=
=2E While we are starting to agree more than we disagree, I think, we shoul=
d continue to pay attention to scoping, please=2E Not now does not mean nev=
er!

Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,

Henk

On October 24, 2018 2:46:21 PM GMT+02:00, Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti=
=2Equalcomm=2Ecom> wrote:
>I have the following understanding (possibly misunderstood) from this
>thread:
>
>
>*   It is desirable to have syntax for incorporating sets of Claims in
>structures that are defined in ASN=2E1=2E At the surface level this may b=
e
>straightforward because claims are essentially (key, value) pairs - the
>key potentially being implicit in some cases, but there could be
>important semantic differences in the meaning of signing in Attestation
>formats vs legacy formats, and there may be challenges in mapping some
>CBOR or JSON constructions to ASN=2E1=2E
>*   The main use-case under discussion is to address mechanisms to
>enable an attestation to be presented to a CA in the context of a
>certificate request protocol=2E If I have correctly understood this, it
>means that a direct mapping of the Claims in an attestation to an X=2E509
>certificate is a non-goal as the CA would be responsible for correctly
>interpreting the semantics of the Claims and incorporating them into an
>issued certificate in ways that make sense in the X=2E509 world=2E
>
>I think we need to take care to limit the scope of work items in this
>area as there exists a considerable existing body of specifications in
>this area=2E Girl has mentioned ACME, and Carl mentioned SCEP, for which
>a new version appears to be nearing publication=2E
>
>My suggestion is that it should be in scope to define a syntax for
>describing attestations which which could be transported via
>certificate request protocols such as ACME and SCEP, but that the
>question of how the semantics of attestations are managed in their
>use-cases is a question for the WGs owning those specifications=2E
>
>Looking at the current SCEP
>draft<https://datatracker=2Eietf=2Eorg/doc/draft-gutmann-scep/?include_te=
xt=3D1>,
>it might be sufficient for the CRIAttributes definition (from RFC2986)
>to include the ASN=2E1 encoding of an attestation=2E ACME seems to encode
>the CSR in RFC2986 for as well, so this might be workable=2E
>
>In terms of the charter text (which is what is really in scope here) we
>could add text to the WG description indicating that the WG will work
>with relevant WGs to identify where attestations may be useful in PKI
>infrastructures=2E I think the existing charter text already covers the
>possibility of defining Claims to enable transport of an X=2E509
>certificate as part of an attestation=2E
>
>Please let me know if I have misunderstood=2E I will be posting an update
>to the text shortly which I believe covers this=2E
>
>Jeremy
>
>On 23 Oct 2018, at 20:57, Carl Wallace
><carl@redhoundsoftware=2Ecom<mailto:carl@redhoundsoftware=2Ecom>> wrote:
>
><snip>
>[nms] Right=2E In order for the CA (verifier) to distinguish the
>certifying key is an =E2=80=98attestable key=E2=80=99 vs=2E a traditional=
 CSR=2E The CA
>should look for a signature from the mfg cert over the CSR (certificate
>management message?) containing the generated public key=2E I=E2=80=99m s=
till not
>seeing where there is a self-signed (issued) certificate in the
>equation=2E
>This began with request to codify binding to certificate request
>protocols, not for a self signed certificate=2E

--=20
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail=2E Please excuse my brevity=2E
------FDJ1RH0N2KOTYDPUWQ11H6TELC52NJ
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" /=
>

</head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; lin=
e-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Please all keep in mind that we are=
 intending to cut work items into phases=2E While we are starting to agree =
more than we disagree, I think, we should continue to pay attention to scop=
ing, please=2E Not now does not mean never!<br>
<br>
Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,<br>
<br>
Henk<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On October 24, 2018 2:46:21 PM GMT+=
02:00, Jeremy O&#39;Donoghue &lt;jodonogh@qti=2Equalcomm=2Ecom&gt; wrote:<b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0=2E8ex; borde=
r-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">

I have the following understanding (possibly misunderstood) from this thre=
ad:
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"" />
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<ul class=3D"MailOutline">
<li class=3D"">It is desirable to have syntax for incorporating sets of Cl=
aims in structures that are defined in ASN=2E1=2E At the surface level this=
 may be straightforward because claims are essentially (key, value) pairs -=
 the key potentially being implicit in
 some cases, but there could be important semantic differences in the mean=
ing of signing in Attestation formats vs legacy formats, and there may be c=
hallenges in mapping some CBOR or JSON constructions to ASN=2E1=2E</li><li =
class=3D"">The main use-case under discussion is to address mechanisms to e=
nable an attestation to be presented to a CA in the context of a certificat=
e request protocol=2E If I have correctly understood this, it means that a =
direct mapping of the Claims in
 an attestation to an X=2E509 certificate is a non-goal as the CA would be=
 responsible for correctly interpreting the semantics of the Claims and inc=
orporating them into an issued certificate in ways that make sense in the X=
=2E509 world=2E</li></ul>
<div><br class=3D"" />
</div>
<div>I think we need to take care to limit the scope of work items in this=
 area as there exists a considerable existing body of specifications in thi=
s area=2E Girl has mentioned ACME, and Carl mentioned SCEP, for which a new=
 version appears to be nearing publication=2E</div>
<div><br class=3D"" />
</div>
<div>My suggestion is that it should be in scope to define a syntax for de=
scribing attestations which which could be transported via certificate requ=
est protocols such as ACME and SCEP, but that the question of how the seman=
tics of attestations are managed
 in their use-cases is a question for the WGs owning those specifications=
=2E</div>
<div><br class=3D"" />
</div>
<div>Looking at the&nbsp;<a href=3D"https://datatracker=2Eietf=2Eorg/doc/d=
raft-gutmann-scep/?include_text=3D1" class=3D"">current SCEP draft</a>, it =
might be sufficient for the CRIAttributes definition (from RFC2986) to incl=
ude the ASN=2E1 encoding of an attestation=2E ACME seems
 to encode the CSR in RFC2986 for as well, so this might be workable=2E</d=
iv>
<div><br class=3D"" />
</div>
<div>In terms of the charter text (which is what is really in scope here) =
we could add text to the WG description indicating that the WG will work wi=
th relevant WGs to identify where attestations may be useful in PKI infrast=
ructures=2E I think the existing charter
 text already covers the possibility of defining Claims to enable transpor=
t of an X=2E509 certificate as part of an attestation=2E</div>
<div><br class=3D"" />
</div>
<div>Please let me know if I have misunderstood=2E I will be posting an up=
date to the text shortly which I believe covers this=2E</div>
<div><br class=3D"" />
</div>
<div>Jeremy</div>
<div><br class=3D"" />
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">On 23 Oct 2018, at 20:57, Carl Wallace &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:carl@redhoundsoftware=2Ecom" class=3D"">carl@redhoundsoftware=2Ecom</a>&=
gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline" />
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;=
 font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weigh=
t: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; tex=
t-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-str=
oke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">
&lt;snip&gt;</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font=
-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-var=
iant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align:=
 start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-s=
pacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=
=3D"">
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"padding: 0p=
x 0px 0px 5px; margin: 0px 0px 0px 5px;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite">
<div o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" w=3D"urn:schemas-micros=
oft-com:office:word" m=3D"http://schemas=2Emicrosoft=2Ecom/office/2004/12/o=
mml" xmlns=3D"http://www=2Ew3=2Eorg/TR/REC-html40" class=3D"">
<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1;">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0=2E0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Ca=
libri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;" class=3D"">[nms] Right=2E In order for th=
e CA (verifier) to distinguish the certifying key is an &lsquo;attestable k=
ey&rsquo; vs=2E a traditional CSR=2E The CA should look for a signature fro=
m the mfg cert over the CSR (certificate management message?)
 containing the generated public key=2E I&rsquo;m still not seeing where t=
here is a self-signed (issued) certificate in the equation=2E</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span>
<div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;=
 font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weigh=
t: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; tex=
t-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-str=
oke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">
This began with request to codify binding to certificate request protocols=
, not for a self signed certificate=2E&nbsp;</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font=
-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-var=
iant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align:=
 start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-s=
pacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=
=3D"">
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"padding: 0p=
x 0px 0px 5px; margin: 0px 0px 0px 5px;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite">
<div o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" w=3D"urn:schemas-micros=
oft-com:office:word" m=3D"http://schemas=2Emicrosoft=2Ecom/office/2004/12/o=
mml" xmlns=3D"http://www=2Ew3=2Eorg/TR/REC-html40" class=3D"">
<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1;">
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0=2E0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Ca=
libri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">
<span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;" class=3D""><p class=3D""></p></span></div=
>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class=3D"" />
</div>

</blockquote></div><br>
-- <br>
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail=2E Please excuse my brevity=2E</=
body></html>
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From: Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>
To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
CC: "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>, Carl Wallace <carl@redhoundsoftware.com>, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [EAT] [Rats]    Attestation BoF charter updates?
Thread-Index: AQHUavXP5xlM3Oo/GUa0I+2fOxOmhqUs9bMAgAAVBwCAAARWgIAADiwAgAAAmYCAARnZgIAAPd8AgAABPQA=
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 16:32:15 +0000
Message-ID: <91CD33FE-A023-464F-A49F-04B38A2A6274@qti.qualcomm.com>
References: <D7F4B1E4.C3BF8%carl@redhoundsoftware.com> <D0C08E47-DBB6-4AAD-95EF-F952155D3152@qti.qualcomm.com> <581DD29C-85D9-4BD8-A0EE-41761ED773B4@intel.com> <D7F4D350.C3CFF%carl@redhoundsoftware.com> <FFA0BB14-48AB-45CE-8D7A-53D43821FC7D@intel.com> <D7F4E84F.C3D97%carl@redhoundsoftware.com> <FCF1711D-4936-4D35-A75D-84B88C076151@intel.com> <D7F4F54C.C3DB8%carl@redhoundsoftware.com> <8340B1B8-775D-4932-B432-29B715A3B45D@qti.qualcomm.com> <D4F3DF93-D63F-4254-8014-9039B856B760@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT]     Attestation BoF charter updates?
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------3446V243X3O1N6LHF1HMZFUM61TRU2
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

It is in the current charter text, because I think your answer in the quote=
 below is well met=2E=20

"ASN=2E1 is already player for a number of attestation formats=2E Any reas=
on to exclude it?

None I can technically justify=2E"

However, even boiling of the ocean is subject to phasing - and the ASN=2E1=
 related wording is not intended to be a loophole ;-)

Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,

Henk



On October 24, 2018 6:32:15 PM GMT+02:00, Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti=
=2Equalcomm=2Ecom> wrote:
>I think you already have text which keeps this scenario in scope in the
>latest draft (the bit about ASN=2E1 interoperability)=2E From my
>perspective this is enough for now=2E
>
>Jeremy
>
>On 24 Oct 2018, at 17:27, Henk Birkholz
><henk=2Ebirkholz@sit=2Efraunhofer=2Ede<mailto:henk=2Ebirkholz@sit=2Efraun=
hofer=2Ede>>
>wrote:
>
>Please all keep in mind that we are intending to cut work items into
>phases=2E While we are starting to agree more than we disagree, I think,
>we should continue to pay attention to scoping, please=2E Not now does
>not mean never!
>
>Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>
>Henk
>
>On October 24, 2018 2:46:21 PM GMT+02:00, Jeremy O'Donoghue
><jodonogh@qti=2Equalcomm=2Ecom<mailto:jodonogh@qti=2Equalcomm=2Ecom>> wro=
te:
>I have the following understanding (possibly misunderstood) from this
>thread:
>
>
>*   It is desirable to have syntax for incorporating sets of Claims in
>structures that are defined in ASN=2E1=2E At the surface level this may b=
e
>straightforward because claims are essentially (key, value) pairs - the
>key potentially being implicit in some cases, but there could be
>important semantic differences in the meaning of signing in Attestation
>formats vs legacy formats, and there may be challenges in mapping some
>CBOR or JSON constructions to ASN=2E1=2E
>*   The main use-case under discussion is to address mechanisms to
>enable an attestation to be presented to a CA in the context of a
>certificate request protocol=2E If I have correctly understood this, it
>means that a direct mapping of the Claims in an attestation to an X=2E509
>certificate is a non-goal as the CA would be responsible for correctly
>interpreting the semantics of the Claims and incorporating them into an
>issued certificate in ways that make sense in the X=2E509 world=2E
>
>I think we need to take care to limit the scope of work items in this
>area as there exists a considerable existing body of specifications in
>this area=2E Girl has mentioned ACME, and Carl mentioned SCEP, for which
>a new version appears to be nearing publication=2E
>
>My suggestion is that it should be in scope to define a syntax for
>describing attestations which which could be transported via
>certificate request protocols such as ACME and SCEP, but that the
>question of how the semantics of attestations are managed  in their
>use-cases is a question for the WGs owning those specifications=2E
>
>Looking at the current SCEP
>draft<https://datatracker=2Eietf=2Eorg/doc/draft-gutmann-scep/?include_te=
xt=3D1>,
>it might be sufficient for the CRIAttributes definition (from RFC2986)
>to include the ASN=2E1 encoding of an attestation=2E ACME seems to encode
>the CSR in RFC2986 for as well, so this might be workable=2E
>
>In terms of the charter text (which is what is really in scope here) we
>could add text to the WG description indicating that the WG will work
>with relevant WGs to identify where attestations may be useful in PKI
>infrastructures=2E I think the existing charter text already covers the
>possibility of defining Claims to enable transport of an X=2E509
>certificate as part of an attestation=2E
>
>Please let me know if I have misunderstood=2E I will be posting an update
>to the text shortly which I believe covers this=2E
>
>Jeremy
>
>On 23 Oct 2018, at 20:57, Carl Wallace
><carl@redhoundsoftware=2Ecom<mailto:carl@redhoundsoftware=2Ecom>> wrote:
>
><snip>
>[nms] Right=2E In order for the CA (verifier) to distinguish the
>certifying key is an =E2=80=98attestable key=E2=80=99 vs=2E a traditional=
 CSR=2E The CA
>should look for a signature from the mfg cert over the CSR (certificate
>management message?) containing the generated public key=2E I=E2=80=99m s=
till not
>seeing where there is a self-signed (issued) certificate in the
>equation=2E
>This began with request to codify binding to certificate request
>protocols, not for a self signed certificate=2E
>
>
>
>--
>Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail=2E Please excuse my brevity=2E

--=20
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail=2E Please excuse my brevity=2E
------3446V243X3O1N6LHF1HMZFUM61TRU2
Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" /=
>

</head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; lin=
e-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">It is in the current charter text, =
because I think your answer in the quote below is well met=2E <br>
<br>
&quot;ASN=2E1 is already player for a number of attestation formats=2E Any=
 reason to exclude it?<br>
<br>
None I can technically justify=2E&quot;<br>
<br>
However, even boiling of the ocean is subject to phasing - and the ASN=2E1=
 related wording is not intended to be a loophole ;-)<br>
<br>
Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,<br>
<br>
Henk<br>
<br>
<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On October 24, 2018 6:32:15 PM GMT+02:0=
0, Jeremy O&#39;Donoghue &lt;jodonogh@qti=2Equalcomm=2Ecom&gt; wrote:<block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0=2E8ex; border-le=
ft: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">

I think you already have text which keeps this scenario in scope in the la=
test draft (the bit about ASN=2E1 interoperability)=2E From my perspective =
this is enough for now=2E<br class=3D"" />
<div><br class=3D"" />
</div>
<div>Jeremy</div>
<div><br class=3D"" />
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">On 24 Oct 2018, at 17:27, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:henk=2Ebirkholz@sit=2Efraunhofer=2Ede" class=3D"">henk=2Ebirkholz@sit=
=2Efraunhofer=2Ede</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline" />
<div class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Hel=
vetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; fon=
t-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0=
px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-t=
ext-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline =
!important;" class=3D"">Please
 all keep in mind that we are intending to cut work items into phases=2E W=
hile we are starting to agree more than we disagree, I think, we should con=
tinue to pay attention to scoping, please=2E Not now does not mean never!</=
span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-s=
ize: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: norm=
al; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-trans=
form: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-wid=
th: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D"" />
<br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size:=
 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform=
: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D"" />
<span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-siz=
e: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal=
; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transfo=
rm: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width=
: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" cla=
ss=3D"">Viele
 Gr&uuml;&szlig;e,</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-fami=
ly: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: norm=
al; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-in=
dent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -w=
ebkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D"" />
<br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size:=
 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform=
: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D"" />
<span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-siz=
e: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal=
; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transfo=
rm: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width=
: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" cla=
ss=3D"">Henk</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Hel=
vetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; fon=
t-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0=
px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-t=
ext-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D"" />
<br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size:=
 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform=
: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: =
0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D"" />
<div class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family=
: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal=
; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-inde=
nt: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -web=
kit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">
On October 24, 2018 2:46:21 PM GMT+02:00, Jeremy O'Donoghue &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:jodonogh@qti=2Equalcomm=2Ecom" class=3D"">jodonogh@qti=2Equalcomm=
=2Ecom</a>&gt; wrote:
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0=2E8ex; bo=
rder-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204,=
 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
I have the following understanding (possibly misunderstood) from this thre=
ad:
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"" />
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<ul class=3D"MailOutline">
<li class=3D"">It is desirable to have syntax for incorporating sets of Cl=
aims in structures that are defined in ASN=2E1=2E At the surface level this=
 may be straightforward because claims are essentially (key, value) pairs -=
 the key potentially being implicit in
 some cases, but there could be important semantic differences in the mean=
ing of signing in Attestation formats vs legacy formats, and there may be c=
hallenges in mapping some CBOR or JSON constructions to ASN=2E1=2E</li><li =
class=3D"">The main use-case under discussion is to address mechanisms to e=
nable an attestation to be presented to a CA in the context of a certificat=
e request protocol=2E If I have correctly understood this, it means that a =
direct mapping of the Claims in
 an attestation to an X=2E509 certificate is a non-goal as the CA would be=
 responsible for correctly interpreting the semantics of the Claims and inc=
orporating them into an issued certificate in ways that make sense in the X=
=2E509 world=2E</li></ul>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"" />
</div>
<div class=3D"">I think we need to take care to limit the scope of work it=
ems in this area as there exists a considerable existing body of specificat=
ions in this area=2E Girl has mentioned ACME, and Carl mentioned SCEP, for =
which a new version appears to be nearing
 publication=2E</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"" />
</div>
<div class=3D"">My suggestion is that it should be in scope to define a sy=
ntax for describing attestations which which could be transported via certi=
ficate request protocols such as ACME and SCEP, but that the question of ho=
w the semantics of attestations are
 managed<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span> in their use-c=
ases is a question for the WGs owning those specifications=2E</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"" />
</div>
<div class=3D"">Looking at the&nbsp;<a href=3D"https://datatracker=2Eietf=
=2Eorg/doc/draft-gutmann-scep/?include_text=3D1" class=3D"">current SCEP dr=
aft</a>, it might be sufficient for the CRIAttributes definition (from RFC2=
986) to include the ASN=2E1 encoding of an attestation=2E
 ACME seems to encode the CSR in RFC2986 for as well, so this might be wor=
kable=2E</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"" />
</div>
<div class=3D"">In terms of the charter text (which is what is really in s=
cope here) we could add text to the WG description indicating that the WG w=
ill work with relevant WGs to identify where attestations may be useful in =
PKI infrastructures=2E I think the existing
 charter text already covers the possibility of defining Claims to enable =
transport of an X=2E509 certificate as part of an attestation=2E</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"" />
</div>
<div class=3D"">Please let me know if I have misunderstood=2E I will be po=
sting an update to the text shortly which I believe covers this=2E</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"" />
</div>
<div class=3D"">Jeremy</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"" />
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">On 23 Oct 2018, at 20:57, Carl Wallace &lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:carl@redhoundsoftware=2Ecom" class=3D"">carl@redhoundsoftware=2Ecom</a>&=
gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline" />
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;=
 font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-inden=
t: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webk=
it-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">
&lt;snip&gt;</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" class=3D"" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: norma=
l; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: nor=
mal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: no=
ne;">
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" class=3D"" type=3D"c=
ite" style=3D"padding: 0px 0px 0px 5px; margin: 0px 0px 0px 5px;">
<div o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" w=3D"urn:schemas-micros=
oft-com:office:word" m=3D"http://schemas=2Emicrosoft=2Ecom/office/2004/12/o=
mml" xmlns=3D"http://www=2Ew3=2Eorg/TR/REC-html40" class=3D"">
<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1;">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0=2E0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font=
-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">
<span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 10pt;">[nms] Right=2E In order for th=
e CA (verifier) to distinguish the certifying key is an &lsquo;attestable k=
ey&rsquo; vs=2E a traditional CSR=2E The CA should look for a signature fro=
m the mfg cert over the CSR (certificate management message?)
 containing the generated public key=2E I&rsquo;m still not seeing where t=
here is a self-signed (issued) certificate in the equation=2E</span></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</span>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;=
 font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-inden=
t: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webk=
it-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">
This began with request to codify binding to certificate request protocols=
, not for a self signed certificate=2E&nbsp;</div>
<span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" class=3D"" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: norma=
l; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: nor=
mal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: no=
ne;">
<blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" class=3D"" type=3D"c=
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-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">
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<br class=3D"" />
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<br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size:=
 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform=
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ss=3D"">--<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><br sty=
le=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; f=
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e: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal=
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Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 12:45:22 -0400
From: Carl Wallace <carl@redhoundsoftware.com>
To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>
CC: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <D7F619D9.C3FAF%carl@redhoundsoftware.com>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] [EAT]     Attestation BoF charter updates?
References: <D7F4B1E4.C3BF8%carl@redhoundsoftware.com> <D0C08E47-DBB6-4AAD-95EF-F952155D3152@qti.qualcomm.com> <581DD29C-85D9-4BD8-A0EE-41761ED773B4@intel.com> <D7F4D350.C3CFF%carl@redhoundsoftware.com> <FFA0BB14-48AB-45CE-8D7A-53D43821FC7D@intel.com> <D7F4E84F.C3D97%carl@redhoundsoftware.com> <FCF1711D-4936-4D35-A75D-84B88C076151@intel.com> <D7F4F54C.C3DB8%carl@redhoundsoftware.com> <8340B1B8-775D-4932-B432-29B715A3B45D@qti.qualcomm.com> <D4F3DF93-D63F-4254-8014-9039B856B760@sit.fraunhofer.de> <91CD33FE-A023-464F-A49F-04B38A2A6274@qti.qualcomm.com> <543135F2-9D4F-4411-A561-21B4751EBE26@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT]     Attestation BoF charter updates?
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Not sure I follow.

From:  RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Henk Birkholz
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
Date:  Wednesday, October 24, 2018 at 12:42 PM
To:  Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>
Cc:  Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "Smith, Ned"
<ned.smith@intel.com>, Carl Wallace <carl@redhoundsoftware.com>,
"eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Subject:  Re: [Rats] [EAT]     Attestation BoF charter updates?

> It is in the current charter text, because I think your answer in the quo=
te
> below is well met.
>=20
> "ASN.1 is already player for a number of attestation formats. Any reason =
to
> exclude it?
>=20
> None I can technically justify."
>=20
> However, even boiling of the ocean is subject to phasing - and the ASN.1
> related wording is not intended to be a loophole ;-)
>=20
> Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>=20
> Henk
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On October 24, 2018 6:32:15 PM GMT+02:00, Jeremy O'Donoghue
> <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com> wrote:
>> I think you already have text which keeps this scenario in scope in the
>> latest draft (the bit about ASN.1 interoperability). From my perspective=
 this
>> is enough for now.
>>=20
>> Jeremy
>>=20
>>> On 24 Oct 2018, at 17:27, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.d=
e>
>>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Please all keep in mind that we are intending to cut work items into ph=
ases.
>>> While we are starting to agree more than we disagree, I think, we shoul=
d
>>> continue to pay attention to scoping, please. Not now does not mean nev=
er!
>>>=20
>>> Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>>>=20
>>> Henk
>>>=20
>>> On October 24, 2018 2:46:21 PM GMT+02:00, Jeremy O'Donoghue
>>> <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com> wrote:
>>>> I have the following understanding (possibly misunderstood) from this
>>>> thread:=20
>>>>=20
>>>> * It is desirable to have syntax for incorporating sets of Claims in
>>>> structures that are defined in ASN.1. At the surface level this may be
>>>> straightforward because claims are essentially (key, value) pairs - th=
e key
>>>> potentially being implicit in some cases, but there could be important
>>>> semantic differences in the meaning of signing in Attestation formats =
vs
>>>> legacy formats, and there may be challenges in mapping some CBOR or JS=
ON
>>>> constructions to ASN.1.
>>>> * The main use-case under discussion is to address mechanisms to enabl=
e an
>>>> attestation to be presented to a CA in the context of a certificate re=
quest
>>>> protocol. If I have correctly understood this, it means that a direct
>>>> mapping of the Claims in an attestation to an X.509 certificate is a
>>>> non-goal as the CA would be responsible for correctly interpreting the
>>>> semantics of the Claims and incorporating them into an issued certific=
ate
>>>> in ways that make sense in the X.509 world.
>>>>=20
>>>> I think we need to take care to limit the scope of work items in this =
area
>>>> as there exists a considerable existing body of specifications in this
>>>> area. Girl has mentioned ACME, and Carl mentioned SCEP, for which a ne=
w
>>>> version appears to be nearing publication.
>>>>=20
>>>> My suggestion is that it should be in scope to define a syntax for
>>>> describing attestations which which could be transported via certifica=
te
>>>> request protocols such as ACME and SCEP, but that the question of how =
the
>>>> semantics of attestations are managed  in their use-cases is a questio=
n for
>>>> the WGs owning those specifications.
>>>>=20
>>>> Looking at the current SCEP draft
>>>> <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gutmann-scep/?include_text=3D1> =
, it
>>>> might be sufficient for the CRIAttributes definition (from RFC2986) to
>>>> include the ASN.1 encoding of an attestation. ACME seems to encode the=
 CSR
>>>> in RFC2986 for as well, so this might be workable.
>>>>=20
>>>> In terms of the charter text (which is what is really in scope here) w=
e
>>>> could add text to the WG description indicating that the WG will work =
with
>>>> relevant WGs to identify where attestations may be useful in PKI
>>>> infrastructures. I think the existing charter text already covers the
>>>> possibility of defining Claims to enable transport of an X.509 certifi=
cate
>>>> as part of an attestation.
>>>>=20
>>>> Please let me know if I have misunderstood. I will be posting an updat=
e to
>>>> the text shortly which I believe covers this.
>>>>=20
>>>> Jeremy
>>>>=20
>>>>> On 23 Oct 2018, at 20:57, Carl Wallace <carl@redhoundsoftware.com> wr=
ote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>> [nms] Right. In order for the CA (verifier) to distinguish the certi=
fying
>>>>>> key is an =E2=80=98attestable key=E2=80=99 vs. a traditional CSR. The CA should =
look for
>>>>>> a signature from the mfg cert over the CSR (certificate management
>>>>>> message?) containing the generated public key. I=E2=80=99m still not seein=
g where
>>>>>> there is a self-signed (issued) certificate in the equation.
>>>>> This began with request to codify binding to certificate request
>>>>> protocols, not for a self signed certificate.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> --=20
>>> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>>=20
>=20
> --=20
> Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
> _______________________________________________ RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats



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<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: s=
pace; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size:=
 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><div>Not sure I follow.</div><div>=
<br></div><span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION"><div style=3D"font-family:Calibri; f=
ont-size:11pt; text-align:left; color:black; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BOR=
DER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-RIGHT=
: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP=
: 3pt"><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">From: </span> RATS &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:rats-bounces@ietf.org">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Henk Birk=
holz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de">henk.birkholz@sit.=
fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Date: </span> Wednes=
day, October 24, 2018 at 12:42 PM<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">To: </sp=
an> Jeremy O'Donoghue &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com">jodonog=
h@qti.qualcomm.com</a>&gt;<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Cc: </span> Mic=
hael Richardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca">mcr+ietf@sandelma=
n.ca</a>&gt;, "Smith, Ned" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com">ned.smit=
h@intel.com</a>&gt;, Carl Wallace &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:carl@redhoundsoftware.=
com">carl@redhoundsoftware.com</a>&gt;, "<a href=3D"mailto:eat@ietf.org">eat@i=
etf.org</a>" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:eat@ietf.org">eat@ietf.org</a>&gt;, "<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org">rats@ietf.org</a>" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.or=
g">rats@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><span style=3D"font-weight:bold">Subject: </span> =
Re: [Rats] [EAT]     Attestation BoF charter updates?<br></div><div><br></di=
v><blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #b=
5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;"><div><meta http-equiv=3D"Cont=
ent-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-wo=
rd; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">It is=
 in the current charter text, because I think your answer in the quote below=
 is well met. <br><br>
"ASN.1 is already player for a number of attestation formats. Any reason to=
 exclude it?<br><br>
None I can technically justify."<br><br>
However, even boiling of the ocean is subject to phasing - and the ASN.1 re=
lated wording is not intended to be a loophole ;-)<br><br>
Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,<br><br>
Henk<br><br><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On October 24, 2018 6:32:15 PM=
 GMT+02:00, Jeremy O'Donoghue &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com"=
>jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com</a>&gt; wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); pa=
dding-left: 1ex;">

I think you already have text which keeps this scenario in scope in the lat=
est draft (the bit about ASN.1 interoperability). From my perspective this i=
s enough for now.<br class=3D""><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Jeremy</div><div>=
<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On 24 Oct 2018, =
at 17:27, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de"=
 class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"App=
le-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0)=
; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-=
caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start=
; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing:=
 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; di=
splay: inline !important;" class=3D"">Please
 all keep in mind that we are intending to cut work items into phases. Whil=
e we are starting to agree more than we disagree, I think, we should continu=
e to pay attention to scoping, please. Not now does not mean never!</span><b=
r style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px;=
 font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-=
spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text=
-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-fami=
ly: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: norma=
l; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-inde=
nt: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webk=
it-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"car=
et-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style:=
 normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: nor=
mal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:=
 normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration:=
 none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">Viele
 Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetic=
a; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weig=
ht: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; tex=
t-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stro=
ke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(=
0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-=
variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-alig=
n: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-=
spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D=
""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size=
: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform:=
 none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0p=
x; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D""=
>Henk</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; fo=
nt-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: n=
ormal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-tra=
nsform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-wi=
dth: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0,=
 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-varia=
nt-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: st=
art; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spaci=
ng: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvet=
ica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-we=
ight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; t=
ext-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-st=
roke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">
On October 24, 2018 2:46:21 PM GMT+02:00, Jeremy O'Donoghue &lt;<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com" class=3D"">jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com</a>&gt; w=
rote:
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-le=
ft-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 20=
4); padding-left: 1ex;">
I have the following understanding (possibly misunderstood) from this threa=
d:
<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><ul class=3D"MailOutline"><li =
class=3D"">It is desirable to have syntax for incorporating sets of Claims in =
structures that are defined in ASN.1. At the surface level this may be strai=
ghtforward because claims are essentially (key, value) pairs - the key poten=
tially being implicit in
 some cases, but there could be important semantic differences in the meani=
ng of signing in Attestation formats vs legacy formats, and there may be cha=
llenges in mapping some CBOR or JSON constructions to ASN.1.</li><li class=3D"=
">The main use-case under discussion is to address mechanisms to enable an a=
ttestation to be presented to a CA in the context of a certificate request p=
rotocol. If I have correctly understood this, it means that a direct mapping=
 of the Claims in
 an attestation to an X.509 certificate is a non-goal as the CA would be re=
sponsible for correctly interpreting the semantics of the Claims and incorpo=
rating them into an issued certificate in ways that make sense in the X.509 =
world.</li></ul><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I think we ne=
ed to take care to limit the scope of work items in this area as there exist=
s a considerable existing body of specifications in this area. Girl has ment=
ioned ACME, and Carl mentioned SCEP, for which a new version appears to be n=
earing
 publication.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">My sugges=
tion is that it should be in scope to define a syntax for describing attesta=
tions which which could be transported via certificate request protocols suc=
h as ACME and SCEP, but that the question of how the semantics of attestatio=
ns are
 managed<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span> in their use-case=
s is a question for the WGs owning those specifications.</div><div class=3D"">=
<br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Looking at the&nbsp;<a href=3D"https://datatr=
acker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gutmann-scep/?include_text=3D1" class=3D"">current SCEP=
 draft</a>, it might be sufficient for the CRIAttributes definition (from RF=
C2986) to include the ASN.1 encoding of an attestation.
 ACME seems to encode the CSR in RFC2986 for as well, so this might be work=
able.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">In terms of the ch=
arter text (which is what is really in scope here) we could add text to the =
WG description indicating that the WG will work with relevant WGs to identif=
y where attestations may be useful in PKI infrastructures. I think the exist=
ing
 charter text already covers the possibility of defining Claims to enable t=
ransport of an X.509 certificate as part of an attestation.</div><div class=3D=
""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Please let me know if I have misundersto=
od. I will be posting an update to the text shortly which I believe covers t=
his.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Jeremy</div><div cl=
ass=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On 23 Oct=
 2018, at 20:57, Carl Wallace &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:carl@redhoundsoftware.com"=
 class=3D"">carl@redhoundsoftware.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-int=
erchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; f=
ont-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-=
align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; w=
ord-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">
&lt;snip&gt;</div><span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION" class=3D"" style=3D"caret-col=
or: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-st=
yle: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:=
 normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-sp=
ace: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decorat=
ion: none;"><blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" class=3D"" typ=
e=3D"cite" style=3D"padding: 0px 0px 0px 5px; margin: 0px 0px 0px 5px;"><div o=3D"=
urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office=
:word" m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http://ww=
w.w3.org/TR/REC-html40" class=3D""><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple=
" class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1;"><div class=3D=
""><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-fami=
ly: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-size: 10pt;">[nms] Righ=
t. In order for the CA (verifier) to distinguish the certifying key is an &#=
8216;attestable key&#8217; vs. a traditional CSR. The CA should look for a s=
ignature from the mfg cert over the CSR (certificate management message?)
 containing the generated public key. I&#8217;m still not seeing where ther=
e is a self-signed (issued) certificate in the equation.</span></div></div><=
/div></div></div></blockquote></span><div class=3D"" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0=
, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-style: norm=
al; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: norm=
al; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none=
;">
This began with request to codify binding to certificate request protocols,=
 not for a self signed certificate.&nbsp;</div><span id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTIO=
N" class=3D"" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-ser=
if; font-size: 14px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-wei=
ght: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; te=
xt-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-str=
oke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUT=
ION_BLOCKQUOTE" class=3D"" type=3D"cite" style=3D"padding: 0px 0px 0px 5px; margin=
: 0px 0px 0px 5px;"><div o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" w=3D"urn:=
schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/20=
04/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40" class=3D""><div lang=3D"EN-U=
S" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page=
: WordSection1;"><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt=
; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span class=3D"" style=3D"=
font-size: 10pt;"><div class=3D""><br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><=
/span></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></span></div></blockquote><=
/div><br class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0,=
 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-varia=
nt-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: st=
art; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spaci=
ng: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><s=
pan style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12p=
x; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; lette=
r-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none=
; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; te=
xt-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">--<s=
pan class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><br style=3D"caret-color=
: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal;=
 font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; tex=
t-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;=
 word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; fon=
t-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: no=
rmal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-tran=
sform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-wid=
th: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" cl=
ass=3D"">Sent
 from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.</span></di=
v></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></blockquote></div><br>
-- <br>
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.</div><=
/div>_______________________________________________
RATS mailing list
<a href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org">RATS@ietf.org</a>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats">https://www.ietf.org/m=
ailman/listinfo/rats</a>
</blockquote></span></body></html>

--B_3623229932_19512313--



From nobody Wed Oct 24 09:55:42 2018
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To: Carl Wallace <carl@redhoundsoftware.com>, "Jeremy O'Donoghue" <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>
CC: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
References: <D7F4B1E4.C3BF8%carl@redhoundsoftware.com> <D0C08E47-DBB6-4AAD-95EF-F952155D3152@qti.qualcomm.com> <581DD29C-85D9-4BD8-A0EE-41761ED773B4@intel.com> <D7F4D350.C3CFF%carl@redhoundsoftware.com> <FFA0BB14-48AB-45CE-8D7A-53D43821FC7D@intel.com> <D7F4E84F.C3D97%carl@redhoundsoftware.com> <FCF1711D-4936-4D35-A75D-84B88C076151@intel.com> <D7F4F54C.C3DB8%carl@redhoundsoftware.com> <8340B1B8-775D-4932-B432-29B715A3B45D@qti.qualcomm.com> <D4F3DF93-D63F-4254-8014-9039B856B760@sit.fraunhofer.de> <91CD33FE-A023-464F-A49F-04B38A2A6274@qti.qualcomm.com> <543135F2-9D4F-4411-A561-21B4751EBE26@sit.fraunhofer.de> <D7F619D9.C3FAF%carl@redhoundsoftware.com>
From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT] Attestation BoF charter updates?
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Hello Carl,

as ASN.1 has been there for quite some time, virtually anything is in 
some way represented via an ASN.1 based format in some way, I'd say. Of 
course this opens up a very wide spectrum of attestation related 
content, too.

That does not mean everything attestation related represented via 
something ASN.1 based is in scope for the initial phase. We have to make 
a few careful decisions here, is all I am saying.

"we could add text to the WG description indicating that the WG will 
work with relevant WGs to identify where attestations may be useful in 
PKI infrastructures" could likely prove to be a very big endeavor and 
should maybe be included in a later phase? We are excluding provisioning 
at the moment and that seems to be significant more vital to remote 
attestation procedures (IMHO). I am highlighting this as a point of 
reference wrt to scoping.

Viele Grüße,

Henk


On 10/24/2018 06:45 PM, Carl Wallace wrote:
> Not sure I follow.
> 
> From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>> on 
> behalf of Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de 
> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>
> Date: Wednesday, October 24, 2018 at 12:42 PM
> To: Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com 
> <mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>>
> Cc: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca 
> <mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com 
> <mailto:ned.smith@intel.com>>, Carl Wallace <carl@redhoundsoftware.com 
> <mailto:carl@redhoundsoftware.com>>, "eat@ietf.org 
> <mailto:eat@ietf.org>" <eat@ietf.org <mailto:eat@ietf.org>>, 
> "rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org>" <rats@ietf.org 
> <mailto:rats@ietf.org>>
> Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT] Attestation BoF charter updates?
> 
>     It is in the current charter text, because I think your answer in
>     the quote below is well met.
> 
>     "ASN.1 is already player for a number of attestation formats. Any
>     reason to exclude it?
> 
>     None I can technically justify."
> 
>     However, even boiling of the ocean is subject to phasing - and the
>     ASN.1 related wording is not intended to be a loophole ;-)
> 
>     Viele Grüße,
> 
>     Henk
> 
> 
> 
>     On October 24, 2018 6:32:15 PM GMT+02:00, Jeremy O'Donoghue
>     <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com <mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>> wrote:
> 
>         I think you already have text which keeps this scenario in scope
>         in the latest draft (the bit about ASN.1 interoperability). From
>         my perspective this is enough for now.
> 
>         Jeremy
> 
>>         On 24 Oct 2018, at 17:27, Henk Birkholz
>>         <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de
>>         <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
>>
>>         Please all keep in mind that we are intending to cut work
>>         items into phases. While we are starting to agree more than we
>>         disagree, I think, we should continue to pay attention to
>>         scoping, please. Not now does not mean never!
>>
>>         Viele Grüße,
>>
>>         Henk
>>
>>         On October 24, 2018 2:46:21 PM GMT+02:00, Jeremy O'Donoghue
>>         <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com <mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>>
>>         wrote:
>>
>>             I have the following understanding (possibly
>>             misunderstood) from this thread:
>>
>>               * It is desirable to have syntax for incorporating sets
>>                 of Claims in structures that are defined in ASN.1. At
>>                 the surface level this may be straightforward because
>>                 claims are essentially (key, value) pairs - the key
>>                 potentially being implicit in some cases, but there
>>                 could be important semantic differences in the meaning
>>                 of signing in Attestation formats vs legacy formats,
>>                 and there may be challenges in mapping some CBOR or
>>                 JSON constructions to ASN.1.
>>               * The main use-case under discussion is to address
>>                 mechanisms to enable an attestation to be presented to
>>                 a CA in the context of a certificate request protocol.
>>                 If I have correctly understood this, it means that a
>>                 direct mapping of the Claims in an attestation to an
>>                 X.509 certificate is a non-goal as the CA would be
>>                 responsible for correctly interpreting the semantics
>>                 of the Claims and incorporating them into an issued
>>                 certificate in ways that make sense in the X.509 world.
>>
>>
>>             I think we need to take care to limit the scope of work
>>             items in this area as there exists a considerable existing
>>             body of specifications in this area. Girl has mentioned
>>             ACME, and Carl mentioned SCEP, for which a new version
>>             appears to be nearing publication.
>>
>>             My suggestion is that it should be in scope to define a
>>             syntax for describing attestations which which could be
>>             transported via certificate request protocols such as ACME
>>             and SCEP, but that the question of how the semantics of
>>             attestations are managedin their use-cases is a question
>>             for the WGs owning those specifications.
>>
>>             Looking at the current SCEP draft
>>             <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gutmann-scep/?include_text=1>,
>>             it might be sufficient for the CRIAttributes definition
>>             (from RFC2986) to include the ASN.1 encoding of an
>>             attestation. ACME seems to encode the CSR in RFC2986 for
>>             as well, so this might be workable.
>>
>>             In terms of the charter text (which is what is really in
>>             scope here) we could add text to the WG description
>>             indicating that the WG will work with relevant WGs to
>>             identify where attestations may be useful in PKI
>>             infrastructures. I think the existing charter text already
>>             covers the possibility of defining Claims to enable
>>             transport of an X.509 certificate as part of an attestation.
>>
>>             Please let me know if I have misunderstood. I will be
>>             posting an update to the text shortly which I believe
>>             covers this.
>>
>>             Jeremy
>>
>>>             On 23 Oct 2018, at 20:57, Carl Wallace
>>>             <carl@redhoundsoftware.com
>>>             <mailto:carl@redhoundsoftware.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>             <snip>
>>>>             [nms] Right. In order for the CA (verifier) to
>>>>             distinguish the certifying key is an ‘attestable key’
>>>>             vs. a traditional CSR. The CA should look for a
>>>>             signature from the mfg cert over the CSR (certificate
>>>>             management message?) containing the generated public
>>>>             key. I’m still not seeing where there is a self-signed
>>>>             (issued) certificate in the equation.
>>>             This began with request to codify binding to certificate
>>>             request protocols, not for a self signed certificate.
>>>>
>>
>>
>>         --
>>         Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my
>>         brevity.
> 
> 
>     -- 
>     Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>     _______________________________________________ RATS mailing list
>     RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats 
> 


From nobody Wed Oct 24 10:00:04 2018
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Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 12:59:41 -0400
From: Carl Wallace <carl@redhoundsoftware.com>
To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>
CC: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <D7F61CDB.C3FB7%carl@redhoundsoftware.com>
Thread-Topic: [EAT] [Rats]  Attestation BoF charter updates?
References: <D7F4B1E4.C3BF8%carl@redhoundsoftware.com> <D0C08E47-DBB6-4AAD-95EF-F952155D3152@qti.qualcomm.com> <581DD29C-85D9-4BD8-A0EE-41761ED773B4@intel.com> <D7F4D350.C3CFF%carl@redhoundsoftware.com> <FFA0BB14-48AB-45CE-8D7A-53D43821FC7D@intel.com> <D7F4E84F.C3D97%carl@redhoundsoftware.com> <FCF1711D-4936-4D35-A75D-84B88C076151@intel.com> <D7F4F54C.C3DB8%carl@redhoundsoftware.com> <8340B1B8-775D-4932-B432-29B715A3B45D@qti.qualcomm.com> <D4F3DF93-D63F-4254-8014-9039B856B760@sit.fraunhofer.de> <91CD33FE-A023-464F-A49F-04B38A2A6274@qti.qualcomm.com> <543135F2-9D4F-4411-A561-21B4751EBE26@sit.fraunhofer.de> <D7F619D9.C3FAF%carl@redhoundsoftware.com> <eec02b2e-bf1b-a9ae-96ca-590a1563c222@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT]   Attestation BoF charter updates?
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Got it. No boiling the ocean intended. Goal for me is to present
attestations to CAs to inform cert issuance. This typically involves ASN.1
and cert mgmt protocols (of which there sadly are many). Multiplicity of
cert mgmt protocols notwithstanding, this ought not be too much scope
creep here. A single attribute definition could serve at least three of
them.

On 10/24/18, 12:55 PM, "EAT on behalf of Henk Birkholz"
<eat-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:

>Hello Carl,
>
>as ASN.1 has been there for quite some time, virtually anything is in
>some way represented via an ASN.1 based format in some way, I'd say. Of
>course this opens up a very wide spectrum of attestation related
>content, too.
>
>That does not mean everything attestation related represented via
>something ASN.1 based is in scope for the initial phase. We have to make
>a few careful decisions here, is all I am saying.
>
>"we could add text to the WG description indicating that the WG will
>work with relevant WGs to identify where attestations may be useful in
>PKI infrastructures" could likely prove to be a very big endeavor and
>should maybe be included in a later phase? We are excluding provisioning
>at the moment and that seems to be significant more vital to remote
>attestation procedures (IMHO). I am highlighting this as a point of
>reference wrt to scoping.
>
>Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>
>Henk
>
>
>On 10/24/2018 06:45 PM, Carl Wallace wrote:
>> Not sure I follow.
>>=20
>> From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>> on
>> behalf of Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de
>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>
>> Date: Wednesday, October 24, 2018 at 12:42 PM
>> To: Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com
>> <mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>>
>> Cc: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca
>> <mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com
>> <mailto:ned.smith@intel.com>>, Carl Wallace <carl@redhoundsoftware.com
>> <mailto:carl@redhoundsoftware.com>>, "eat@ietf.org
>> <mailto:eat@ietf.org>" <eat@ietf.org <mailto:eat@ietf.org>>,
>> "rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org>" <rats@ietf.org
>> <mailto:rats@ietf.org>>
>> Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT] Attestation BoF charter updates?
>>=20
>>     It is in the current charter text, because I think your answer in
>>     the quote below is well met.
>>=20
>>     "ASN.1 is already player for a number of attestation formats. Any
>>     reason to exclude it?
>>=20
>>     None I can technically justify."
>>=20
>>     However, even boiling of the ocean is subject to phasing - and the
>>     ASN.1 related wording is not intended to be a loophole ;-)
>>=20
>>     Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>>=20
>>     Henk
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>     On October 24, 2018 6:32:15 PM GMT+02:00, Jeremy O'Donoghue
>>     <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com <mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>>
>>wrote:
>>=20
>>         I think you already have text which keeps this scenario in scope
>>         in the latest draft (the bit about ASN.1 interoperability). From
>>         my perspective this is enough for now.
>>=20
>>         Jeremy
>>=20
>>>         On 24 Oct 2018, at 17:27, Henk Birkholz
>>>         <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de
>>>         <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
>>>
>>>         Please all keep in mind that we are intending to cut work
>>>         items into phases. While we are starting to agree more than we
>>>         disagree, I think, we should continue to pay attention to
>>>         scoping, please. Not now does not mean never!
>>>
>>>         Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>>>
>>>         Henk
>>>
>>>         On October 24, 2018 2:46:21 PM GMT+02:00, Jeremy O'Donoghue
>>>         <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com <mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>>
>>>         wrote:
>>>
>>>             I have the following understanding (possibly
>>>             misunderstood) from this thread:
>>>
>>>               * It is desirable to have syntax for incorporating sets
>>>                 of Claims in structures that are defined in ASN.1. At
>>>                 the surface level this may be straightforward because
>>>                 claims are essentially (key, value) pairs - the key
>>>                 potentially being implicit in some cases, but there
>>>                 could be important semantic differences in the meaning
>>>                 of signing in Attestation formats vs legacy formats,
>>>                 and there may be challenges in mapping some CBOR or
>>>                 JSON constructions to ASN.1.
>>>               * The main use-case under discussion is to address
>>>                 mechanisms to enable an attestation to be presented to
>>>                 a CA in the context of a certificate request protocol.
>>>                 If I have correctly understood this, it means that a
>>>                 direct mapping of the Claims in an attestation to an
>>>                 X.509 certificate is a non-goal as the CA would be
>>>                 responsible for correctly interpreting the semantics
>>>                 of the Claims and incorporating them into an issued
>>>                 certificate in ways that make sense in the X.509 world.
>>>
>>>
>>>             I think we need to take care to limit the scope of work
>>>             items in this area as there exists a considerable existing
>>>             body of specifications in this area. Girl has mentioned
>>>             ACME, and Carl mentioned SCEP, for which a new version
>>>             appears to be nearing publication.
>>>
>>>             My suggestion is that it should be in scope to define a
>>>             syntax for describing attestations which which could be
>>>             transported via certificate request protocols such as ACME
>>>             and SCEP, but that the question of how the semantics of
>>>             attestations are managedin their use-cases is a question
>>>             for the WGs owning those specifications.
>>>
>>>             Looking at the current SCEP draft
>>>            =20
>>><https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-gutmann-scep/?include_text=3D1>,
>>>             it might be sufficient for the CRIAttributes definition
>>>             (from RFC2986) to include the ASN.1 encoding of an
>>>             attestation. ACME seems to encode the CSR in RFC2986 for
>>>             as well, so this might be workable.
>>>
>>>             In terms of the charter text (which is what is really in
>>>             scope here) we could add text to the WG description
>>>             indicating that the WG will work with relevant WGs to
>>>             identify where attestations may be useful in PKI
>>>             infrastructures. I think the existing charter text already
>>>             covers the possibility of defining Claims to enable
>>>             transport of an X.509 certificate as part of an
>>>attestation.
>>>
>>>             Please let me know if I have misunderstood. I will be
>>>             posting an update to the text shortly which I believe
>>>             covers this.
>>>
>>>             Jeremy
>>>
>>>>             On 23 Oct 2018, at 20:57, Carl Wallace
>>>>             <carl@redhoundsoftware.com
>>>>             <mailto:carl@redhoundsoftware.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>             <snip>
>>>>>             [nms] Right. In order for the CA (verifier) to
>>>>>             distinguish the certifying key is an =E2=80=98attestable key=E2=80=99
>>>>>             vs. a traditional CSR. The CA should look for a
>>>>>             signature from the mfg cert over the CSR (certificate
>>>>>             management message?) containing the generated public
>>>>>             key. I=E2=80=99m still not seeing where there is a self-signed
>>>>>             (issued) certificate in the equation.
>>>>             This began with request to codify binding to certificate
>>>>             request protocols, not for a self signed certificate.
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>         --
>>>         Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my
>>>         brevity.
>>=20
>>=20
>>     --=20
>>     Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>>     _______________________________________________ RATS mailing list
>>     RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
>>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>>=20
>
>_______________________________________________
>EAT mailing list
>EAT@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat



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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
To: Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>, "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
CC: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>,  "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [EAT] [Rats]  Attestation BoF charter updates?
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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>, "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: [EAT] [Rats] Attestation BoF charter updates? - Charter introduction section
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT] Attestation BoF charter updates? - Charter introduction section
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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>, "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: [EAT] [Rats] Attestation BoF charter updates? Charter goals section
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Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 18:03:53 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT] Attestation BoF charter updates? Charter goals section
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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>, "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: [EAT] [Rats] Attestation BoF charter updates? - Program of Work section
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Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 18:19:37 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT] Attestation BoF charter updates? - Program of Work section
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Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 20:15:03 +0700
Cc: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>, "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT] Attestation BoF charter updates? - Program of Work section
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The new charter looks pretty good to me.=20

Some comments on claims formats.

The way I=E2=80=99ve been thinking of support for multiple formats =
(JSON, CBOR, ASN.1...) is that we do the main work of defining the claim =
semantics first. Those semantics are in common for all the syntaxes. =
JSON, CBOR, etc. are just syntaxes.

Agreed we should look at existing claim definitions and avoid re =
inventing. They should be from any source though, not just ASN.1.=20

I want to bring up the issue of interoperability when there are multiple =
syntaxes (CBOR, JSON, ASN.1=E2=80=A6) and securing schemes (COSE, JOSE, =
CMS=E2=80=A6). I think the device should be able to pick one format and =
only implement that. I don=E2=80=99t think there should be format =
negotiation. The relying party thus must implement all variants for =
there to be full interoperability.=20

It might be possible to have some intermediate service that translates =
the syntax of claims (e.g. from CBOR to ASN.1), but then that =
intermediary would have to re sign which means it would have to be fully =
trusted as part of the end-end security model.

So I am making some argument against ASN.1 and anything beyond JSON and =
CBOR.  The more formats there are the more work the relying parties will =
have to do and of course some won=E2=80=99t implement all the formats =
and then we=E2=80=99ll have less interop.

LL

BTW, the first EAT implementation I did used CMS because COSE wasn=E2=80=99=
t ready. I did a pretty small CMS implementation and then later a pretty =
small COSE Sign1 implementation. COSE Sign1 was easier and less code.



> On Oct 25, 2018, at 1:19 AM, Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com> wrote:
>=20
> [nms] The Program of Work section (2.) has the following statement:
> "Specify interoperable cross-platform claims which provide information =
about systems and entities in support of the required use-cases, and =
extending the set of claims defined in RFC7519 and RFC8392. The =
specification will describe the syntax for each claim in at least the =
following formats:
>=20
> CBOR [RFC7049]
> JSON [RFC7159]
> using modeling languages, such as:
>=20
> YANG [RFC6020]
> CDDL [I-D.ietf-cbor-cddl]
> while retaining interoperability with existing formats based on ASN.1, =
if possible and feasible."
> [nms] The intent is (should be?) that existing ASN.1 formatted claims =
should be semantically similar/same as their CBOR/JSON/YANG/CDDL =
counterparts. If the WG defines claims for which there isn't a =
pre-existing standardized ASN.1 representation. It should be within the =
scope of the WG to define the ASN.1 representation. Hence, the sentence =
"...while retaining interoperability with existing formats based on =
ASN.1, if possible and feasible." Might better be stated as:
> "...while retaining interoperability with existing formats based on =
ASN.1, where claim semantics are the same (very similar)."
> "Claims that are unique to the efforts of this working group may =
include definition of its ASN.1 representation."
> -Ned
>=20
> =EF=BB=BFOn 10/24/18, 5:56 AM, "EAT on behalf of Henk Birkholz" =
<eat-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> =
wrote:
>=20
>    Hi all,
>=20
>    based on Jeremy's proposal we did another big refactoring - also =
tried=20
>    to address everybody's comments, inputs and concerns.
>=20
>> https://github.com/ietf-rats/charter/blob/RC3/ietf-rats-charter.md
>=20
>    Please note that this charter text is intended to be a first phase,=20=

>    which is the reason why, for example, there still is no mentioning =
about=20
>    provisioning, profiles, or more details about out-of-band =
dependencies.
>=20
>    As Michael highlighted, most types of content belong into drafts. =
That=20
>    said - on one hand the charter is a kind of "contract" wrt to scope =
and=20
>    output, on the other hand we do not want to boil the ocean (at =
least not=20
>    all at once...).
>=20
>    Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>=20
>    Henk
>=20
>    On 10/24/2018 01:36 PM, Jeremy O'Donoghue wrote:
>> HI Eric,
>>=20
>>> On 23 Oct 2018, at 19:04, Eric Voit (evoit) <evoit@cisco.com=20
>>> <mailto:evoit@cisco.com>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Hi Jeremy,
>>> Thanks for taking a cut at this charter simplification.  There are a=20=

>>> few areas covered within theGitHub Goals=20
>>> =
<https://github.com/ietf-rats/charter/blob/RC2/ietf-rats-charter.md>which=20=

>>> I can=E2=80=99t easily map to your text below.  Could you talk about =
how these=20
>>> elements are covered (or not)?   For context, I am working from the=20=

>>> perspective ofremote attestation application=20
>>> =
<https://www.cisco.com/c/dam/en/us/td/docs/cloud-systems-management/applic=
ation-policy-infrastructure-controller-enterprise-module/1-5-x/integrity_v=
erification/user-guide/Cisco_Integrity_Verification_Application_APIC-EM_Us=
er_Guide_1_5_0_x.pdf>developer=20
>>> trying to standardize the interfaces between a controller (which is=20=

>>> acting as a claim verifier) and a network element (which includes =
TCG=20
>>> based subsystems.)
>>> For my application to work properly, there are several things needed=20=

>>> within a network controller to validate the asserted claims coming =
out=20
>>> of a router.  These include:
>>> =C2=B7How do we expose the attestation evidence which can be used to=20=

>>> validate asserted claims?
>>=20
>> I think that the need to address this is covered sufficiently for a =
WG=20
>> Charter by the statement "Produce a specification defining procedures=20=

>> and corresponding architectures
> supporting verification of Claims".
>>=20
>> If verification of Claims requires specific forms of attestation=20
>> evidence (e.g. a set of measurements generated by a TPM), then it is=20=

>> properly a matter for an RFC to specify this, as Michael suggests.
>>=20
>>> =C2=B7How do we know which root of trust which was used to generate =
the=20
>>> attestation evidence (e.g., application event logs), and how does a=20=

>>> verifier differentiate this from the root-of-trust which asserts=20
>>> claims made upon this evidence?
>>=20
>> Again, I think this is a matter for specification rather than =
charter.=20
>> There are a number of different ways in which Roots of Trust can be=20=

>> realised and many possible device architectures. The EAT draft allows=20=

>> one RoT to include an attestation generated by a different RoT, for=20=

>> example. I believe the RATS draft also provides technical mechanisms =
by=20
>> which this can be achieved.
>>=20
>>> =C2=B7What entities are allowed to read the info asserted claims?  =
What=20
>>> subset of these can see the raw attestation evidence?
>>> These questions are significant because routers/switches are not=20
>>> monolithic devices.  In fact, they are composed of subsystems with=20=

>>> different levels of trustworthiness. As the IETF often aims at=20
>>> protocol specifications at the inter-device level, I am looking for=20=

>>> coverage of such questions in the charter.
>>=20
>> I agree with you here as the same issue applies to claims with =
privacy=20
>> implications. As an example, I may wish to present a unique device ID =
to=20
>> a social media website but not my location.
>>=20
>> I have added bullet point 3 to the draft - which I will post =
separately.=20
>> Let me know if you think this addresses your concerns sufficiently.
>>=20
>> Best regards
>> Jeremy
>>=20
>>> Thanks,
>>> Eric
>>> *From:*Jeremy O'Donoghue, October 23, 2018 10:40 AM
>>>=20
>>> On 22 Oct 2018, at 22:01, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca=20=

>>> <mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>    Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com
>>>    <mailto:jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>        This is a very useful contribution, Laurence.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>        The current draft text is too strongly biased towards
>>>        attestation based
>>>        on measurement, and does not adequately cover other =
mechanisms
>>>        which
>>>        are already
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>    But, it's for the charter, for the WG, it's not a treatise on
>>>    attestation
>>>    itself.
>>>=20
>>>    This is all supposed to be *meta* text about attestation, about
>>>    what we want
>>>    to say about attestation in the documents, not about what
>>>    attestation is.
>>>=20
>>>    Please go read some other IETF charters:
>>>=20
>>>    https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/6lo/about/
>>>    https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/6tisch/about/
>>>    https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/suit/about/
>>>=20
>>> Fair comment.
>>> We have two existing proposals - EAT and RATS - which address a=20
>>> similar problem space but using different mechanisms. While I =
believe=20
>>> the RATS and EAT contributors are in broad agreement that there is=20=

>>> significant benefit in bringing both work streams under a single=20
>>> umbrella, trying to properly incorporate EAT through incremental=20
>>> modification to the draft RATS WG charter text is proving =
challenging.
>>> The below probably diverges too far from the current text for some=20=

>>> tastes, but it may address your point and provide a basis for=20
>>> discussion (at this point the GitHub draft=20
>>> <https://github.com/ietf-rats/charter/blob/RC2/ietf-rats-charter.md> =
seems=20
>>> a long way behind the list). It is deliberately significantly =
shorter=20
>>> than the current draft - I have tried to re-use as much existing =
text=20
>>> as possible, but it is heavily re-organised and abridged.
>>> I have taken on board the comment from Carsten that perhaps a =
minimum=20
>>> level of terminology is acceptable in charter text, but deliberately=20=

>>> tried to keep the language simple and fairly generic to enable the=20=

>>> proper work of terminology definition to take place in the=20
>>> requirements document as you suggest.
>>>=20
>>> Introduction
>>>=20
>>> ------------
>>>=20
>>> Remote attestation procedures can be incorporated in network =
protocols to
>>> provide the basis for establishing claims about an entity in a =
trustworthy
>>> manner. Such claims may include, but are not limited to, device =
identity,
>>> manufacturing origin, system integrity, configuration, operational=20=

>>> state and
>>> measurements of steps which led to the operational state. Such =
procedures
>>> expose entity characteristics in the form of claim sets which allow =
remote
>>> parties to establish the trustworthiness of a device, provide =
evidence=20
>>> that a
>>> particular set of operations and functions are supported and/or that =
the
>>> entity is actually what it claims to be.
>>>=20
>>> In the absence of such procedures, while domain-specific attestation
>>> mechanisms such as TCG TPM, FIDO Alliance attestation and Android =
Keystore
>>> attestation exist, there is no common way for a remote party to tell=20=

>>> if data
>>> originates from a trustworthy device (e.g. a Trusted System designed =
to
>>> support a specific set of operations/functionalities) or not.
>>>=20
>>> The following minimal terminology is defined for the purposes of=20
>>> clarifying the
>>> Working Group charter text:
>>>=20
>>> - attestation: a set of claims which can be verified as originating =
in an
>>>          entity.
>>>=20
>>> - claim:  as defined in RFC7519.
>>>=20
>>> - entity: a device or device sub-module that can generate a claim or=20=

>>> set of
>>>          claims which can be verified by a remote party.
>>>=20
>>> - remote party: an actor remote from an entity that wishes to verify=20=

>>> whether
>>>          a claim or set of claims originated in a given entity.
>>>=20
>>> Description of the Working Group
>>>=20
>>> --------------------------------
>>>=20
>>> The Working Group will define:
>>>=20
>>> - Standardized and interoperable mechanisms to establish a =
sufficient=20
>>> level
>>>  of confidence that data originates from a trustworthy entity =
designed to
>>>  support a specific set of operations/functionalities.
>>> - Standardized and interoperable mechanisms building on (1) to allow=20=

>>> remote
>>>  parties to know the provenance and characteristics of an entity =
that=20
>>> may be
>>>  requesting services.
>>>=20
>>> The Working Group will identify security goals which it expects a=20
>>> trustworthy
>>> execution context to address, which will assume the presence of =
Roots of
>>> Trust (as defined by NIST [SP800-164]). The detailed specification =
of such
>>> contexts is out of scope.
>>>=20
>>> The Working Group will maintain close relationships with bodies=20
>>> undertaking
>>> complementary work streams in the area of remote attestation such as
>>> GlobalPlatform, Trusted Computing Group and FIDO Alliance.
>>>=20
>>> The Working Group will cooperate with the TEEP Working Group, which =
may
>>> generate requirements for claims relevant to TEE.
>>>=20
>>> Work Items
>>>=20
>>> ----------
>>>=20
>>> The Working Group will develop specifications supporting the =
creation of
>>> interoperable remote attestation procedures for entities which=20
>>> incorporate
>>> Roots of Trust. The main deliverables are as follows.
>>>=20
>>> - Produce a requirements document establishing a common vocabulary =
for=20
>>> remote
>>>  attestation, identifying mechanisms which will be supported for=20
>>> establishing
>>>  trust between an entity and a remote party, and enumerating sample=20=

>>> use-cases
>>>  for remote attestation.
>>>=20
>>> - Produce specification text defining interoperable cross-platform=20=

>>> claims which
>>>  provide information about an entity in support of the required=20
>>> use-cases, and
>>>  extending the set of claims defined in RFC7519 and RFC8392. The=20
>>> specification
>>>  will describe the syntax for each claim in at least the following=20=

>>> formats:
>>>    - CBOR [RFC7049]
>>>    - JSON [RFC7159]
>>>    - YANG [RFC6020]
>>>=20
>>> - Produce specification text defining procedures and corresponding=20=

>>> architectures
>>>  supporting verification of claims within an attestation based on=20
>>> measured file
>>>  execution procedures and supporting:
>>>    - Explicit attestation wherein a set of claims is transported in=20=

>>> the attestation;
>>>    - Implicit attestation wherein a set of claims is implied by=20
>>> possession of a secret.
>>>=20
>>> - Produce specification text defining procedures and corresponding=20=

>>> architectures
>>>  supporting verification of claims encapsulated in:
>>>=20
>>>    - CBOR Web Token structures [RFC8392]
>>>    - JSON Web Token structures [RFC7519]
>>>=20
>>> - Perform privacy analysis of both claims and the cryptographic=20
>>> procedures used to
>>>  establish trust. This information will be included as appropriate =
in the
>>>  deliverable specifications, and may imply extension of procedures=20=

>>> defined in
>>>  other specifications in support of privacy goals.
>>>=20
>>> It seems to me that there are two ways to produce the main=20
>>> specification deliverables. I have deliberately left the text above=20=

>>> slightly vague on this.
>>>=20
>>>  * A claims specification common to RATS and EAT with separate RATS
>>>    and EAT procedure specifications.
>>>  * A claims specification also incorporating EAT procedures and a
>>>    separate RATS procedure specification. This would be my preferred
>>>    option.
>>>=20
>>>      o I believe there are very few procedures needed for EAT other
>>>        than the possible need to support a nonce to ensure freshness
>>>=20
>>> Jeremy
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>    Notice how by about the second paragraph (6tisch takes a bit
>>>    longer), each
>>>    gets into what the WG will do?
>>>=20
>>>    --
>>>    Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca
>>>    <mailto:mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>>, Sandelman Software Works
>>>    -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
>>>    _______________________________________________
>>>    EAT mailing list
>>>    EAT@ietf.org <mailto:EAT@ietf.org>
>>>    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat
>>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> EAT mailing list
>> EAT@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat
>>=20
>=20
>    _______________________________________________
>    EAT mailing list
>    EAT@ietf.org
>    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> EAT mailing list
> EAT@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat


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Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 09:47:06 -0400
From: Carl Wallace <carl@redhoundsoftware.com>
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
CC: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Rats] [EAT] Attestation BoF charter updates? - Program of Work section
References: <0199DB00-E76E-4664-BE02-E2AF4F4B6AEC@intel.com> <526BB5AC-60A8-4CD3-95F4-39F210E4D2FB@island-resort.com>
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On 10/25/18, 9:15 AM, "RATS on behalf of Laurence Lundblade"
<rats-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of lgl@island-resort.com> wrote:

><snip>
>
>So I am making some argument against ASN.1 and anything beyond JSON and
>CBOR.  The more formats there are the more work the relying parties will
>have to do and of course some won=E2=80=99t implement all the formats and then
>we=E2=80=99ll have less interop.

[CW] At least where the claims are related to cryptographic keys, ASN.1 is
likely unavoidable as it's part of the environment. Avoiding it is not
likely to help interop. =20



From nobody Thu Oct 25 07:11:34 2018
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Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 21:11:26 +0700
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT] Attestation BoF charter updates? - Program of Work section
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> On Oct 25, 2018, at 8:47 PM, Carl Wallace <carl@redhoundsoftware.com> =
wrote:
>=20
>=20
> On 10/25/18, 9:15 AM, "RATS on behalf of Laurence Lundblade"
> <rats-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of lgl@island-resort.com> wrote:
>=20
>> <snip>
>>=20
>> So I am making some argument against ASN.1 and anything beyond JSON =
and
>> CBOR.  The more formats there are the more work the relying parties =
will
>> have to do and of course some won=E2=80=99t implement all the formats =
and then
>> we=E2=80=99ll have less interop.
>=20
> [CW] At least where the claims are related to cryptographic keys, =
ASN.1 is
> likely unavoidable as it's part of the environment. Avoiding it is not
> likely to help interop.


For an attestation in the vein of EAT you have a series of claims that =
are signed. The sane thing to do is pick one format and apply it all the =
way through. The claims are in JOSE format and you sign with JWT. The =
claims are in CBOR and you sign with COSE. The claims are ASN.1 and you =
sign in CMS.=20

It would be possible to have something like a PKCS10 CSR stuffed into a =
CBOR byte string in a CBOR/COSE format attestation, but the overall =
format of the attestation is CBOR/COSE. Maybe this is what you are =
after?=20

Agreed that we might actually have to do this since there is no CBOR =
format CSR (yet).=20

I can also see having to use X.509 for establishing trust in signing =
keys since there is no CBOR format for certificates (yet). Jim Schaad =
was working on extensions to COSE for this.

Any other examples?=20

I would hope we can avoid CMS and creating ASN.1 syntax for every claim =
we define.

LL



From nobody Thu Oct 25 07:36:15 2018
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From: Marcus Streets <Marcus.Streets@arm.com>
To: Carl Wallace <carl@redhoundsoftware.com>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
CC: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>, Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
Thread-Topic: [EAT] [Rats] Attestation BoF charter updates? - Program of Work section
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT] Attestation BoF charter updates? - Program of Work section
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Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 10:43:27 -0400
From: Carl Wallace <carl@redhoundsoftware.com>
To: Marcus Streets <Marcus.Streets@arm.com>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
CC: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>, Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
Message-ID: <D7F74E2C.C419F%carl@redhoundsoftware.com>
Thread-Topic: [EAT] [Rats] Attestation BoF charter updates? - Program of Work section
References: <0199DB00-E76E-4664-BE02-E2AF4F4B6AEC@intel.com> <526BB5AC-60A8-4CD3-95F4-39F210E4D2FB@island-resort.com> <D7F73FD8.C4179%carl@redhoundsoftware.com> <AM0PR08MB3265E49DC63AE37B63FF52088CF70@AM0PR08MB3265.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT] Attestation BoF charter updates? - Program of Work section
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The point is not an alternative certificate format, but to define the
binding between of an attestation with a certificate request.

On 10/25/18, 10:35 AM, "Marcus Streets" <Marcus.Streets@arm.com> wrote:

>That is an argument for never fixing anything.
>
>We can define a CBOR format for certificates and recommend people use it.
>If that creates a need, service providers will offer to sell certificates
>in the correct format.
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: EAT <eat-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Carl Wallace
>Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2018 2:47 PM
>To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>; Smith, Ned
><ned.smith@intel.com>
>Cc: Eric Voit (evoit) <evoit@cisco.com>; Jeremy O'Donoghue
><jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>; eat@ietf.org; Michael Richardson
><mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>; rats@ietf.org; Henk Birkholz
><henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
>Subject: Re: [EAT] [Rats] Attestation BoF charter updates? - Program of
>Work section
>
>
>On 10/25/18, 9:15 AM, "RATS on behalf of Laurence Lundblade"
><rats-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of lgl@island-resort.com> wrote:
>
>><snip>
>>
>>So I am making some argument against ASN.1 and anything beyond JSON and
>>CBOR.  The more formats there are the more work the relying parties
>>will have to do and of course some won=E2=80=99t implement all the formats and
>>then we=E2=80=99ll have less interop.
>
>[CW] At least where the claims are related to cryptographic keys, ASN.1
>is likely unavoidable as it's part of the environment. Avoiding it is not
>likely to help interop.
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>EAT mailing list
>EAT@ietf.org
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eat
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Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2018 11:06:31 -0400
From: Carl Wallace <carl@redhoundsoftware.com>
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
CC: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>,  Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Thread-Topic: [EAT] [Rats] Attestation BoF charter updates? - Program of Work section
References: <0199DB00-E76E-4664-BE02-E2AF4F4B6AEC@intel.com> <526BB5AC-60A8-4CD3-95F4-39F210E4D2FB@island-resort.com> <D7F73FD8.C4179%carl@redhoundsoftware.com> <662EFF28-BC29-4C1F-BB00-086D449D6F0A@island-resort.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT] Attestation BoF charter updates? - Program of Work section
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On 10/25/18, 10:11 AM, "Laurence Lundblade" <lgl@island-resort.com> wrote:

>
>> On Oct 25, 2018, at 8:47 PM, Carl Wallace <carl@redhoundsoftware.com>
>>wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>> On 10/25/18, 9:15 AM, "RATS on behalf of Laurence Lundblade"
>> <rats-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of lgl@island-resort.com> wrote:
>>=20
>>> <snip>
>>>=20
>>> So I am making some argument against ASN.1 and anything beyond JSON and
>>> CBOR.  The more formats there are the more work the relying parties
>>>will
>>> have to do and of course some won=E2=80=99t implement all the formats and the=
n
>>> we=E2=80=99ll have less interop.
>>=20
>> [CW] At least where the claims are related to cryptographic keys, ASN.1
>>is
>> likely unavoidable as it's part of the environment. Avoiding it is not
>> likely to help interop.
>
>
>For an attestation in the vein of EAT you have a series of claims that
>are signed. The sane thing to do is pick one format and apply it all the
>way through. The claims are in JOSE format and you sign with JWT. The
>claims are in CBOR and you sign with COSE. The claims are ASN.1 and you
>sign in CMS.
[CW] It may shake out such that the claims I care about could be ASN.1
from top to bottom but I doubt it. Mixing formats doesn't seem like a
problem. Base64 encodings of DER encoded structures are quite common in
XML and JSON, for example. Including COSE or JOSE structure as an
attribute in an ASN.1 structure seems fine too.
>=20
>
>It would be possible to have something like a PKCS10 CSR stuffed into a
>CBOR byte string in a CBOR/COSE format attestation, but the overall
>format of the attestation is CBOR/COSE. Maybe this is what you are after?

[CW] Not exactly. The CSR would contain a mix of data that is originated
by/protected by a hardware component and data that is external (e.g.,
challenge password). It's not clear to me orchestrating including the P10
in the attestation is the right path. Including a signed claim about key
provenance in a standard cert request seems sufficient and easy enough.
>
>Agreed that we might actually have to do this since there is no CBOR
>format CSR (yet).

[CW] Not sure why that would be required. There was earlier mention of not
boiling the ocean, trying to recast everything as CBOR doesn't seem wise.
>=20
>
>I can also see having to use X.509 for establishing trust in signing keys
>since there is no CBOR format for certificates (yet). Jim Schaad was
>working on extensions to COSE for this.
>
>Any other examples?

[CW] I shared a pile of examples via GitHub some weeks back -
https://github.com/Purebred/SampleAttestations. I will add Pixel 3
artifacts soon. I am not suggesting these as a basis for standardization,
but as illustrative of how attestations are used in certificate requests
in some environments. At present, w.r.t. demonstrating key provenance, we
are using:
	- Android attestations (X.509 certificates that chain to a specific root
represented as a certs-only SignedData),
	- Yubikey attestations (X.509 certificates that chain to a specific
rootrepresented as a certs-only SignedData) and
	- Surface Pro TPM attestations (CMC requests that wrap a mix of TCG and
Microsoft structures).

[CW] Each of these is attached to a SCEP request as an attribute. The
attestations are verified and the public key from the attestation is
compared to the public key in the SCEP request. We have another variant
that does use CBOR for some claims. In that case the Google attestation
certificate is included in the CBOR similar to your description above but
the CBOR layer isn't demonstrating key provenance in this case. SCEP, CMC
and EST all use similar attributes. It is not unlikely that a single spec
defining one or more attributes to convey attestations could be shared by
all three.=20
>=20
>
>I would hope we can avoid CMS and creating ASN.1 syntax for every claim
>we define.

[CW] I can't imagine this would be necessary.
>
>LL
>
>



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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
To: Carl Wallace <carl@redhoundsoftware.com>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
CC: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>, Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>, "Michael Richardson" <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, "Henk Birkholz" <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
Thread-Topic: [EAT] [Rats] Attestation BoF charter updates? - Program of Work section
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Cc: Carl Wallace <carl@redhoundsoftware.com>, "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>, Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT] Attestation BoF charter updates? - Program of Work section
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(This isn=E2=80=99t really charter bashing anymore; think we=E2=80=99re =
mostly done with that)

I=E2=80=99ll put this in the form of a proposal:

A set of claims about a device is aggregated into a 'token' (this is the =
term used in CWT/JWT) or =E2=80=98document'. That token/document will be =
signed.  We will support only two formats for the token/document.

CWT: Claims are mainly in CBOR format, but we can stuff other things =
like commonly used ASN.1, XML, JSON...  structures into an individual =
claim if necessary. Signing is COSE format, though COSE headers might =
carry X.509 certs to help identify and chain up to the verification key.

JWT: Claims are mainly in JSON format, but we can stuff other things =
like commonly used ASN.1, XML, CBOR=E2=80=A6 structures into an =
individual claim if necessary. Signing is JOSE format, though JOSE =
headers might carry X.509 certs to help identify and chain up to the =
verification key.

The number of formats should be minimized for interoperability so there =
are only two. There will be no top-level token/document formatted in =
ASN.1, XML or other. The main singing of the token will never be CMS.  =
X.509 will not be used for the token/document format.

YANG and/or CDDL will be used describe the claims that are to be encoded =
in CBOR and JSON. (YANG and CDDL are not encoding formats, just a =
language for describing structures at a higher level)

The good thing about CBOR and JSON and CWT and JWT is that they are good =
friends. CBOR was designed for easy conversion to/from JSON. CWT and JWT =
already share claims.

I=E2=80=99m not sure if this addresses Carl=E2=80=99s use cases yet.=20

LL



> On Oct 26, 2018, at 7:22 AM, Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com> wrote:
>=20
> I expect a common attestation scenario can be characterized as an =
X.509 certificate chain having an EE certificate whose private key owner =
signs a document containing claims. The document could be expressed in =
any of the formats being discussed here. Use case context may play a =
role in determining which document format is appropriate, and I don't =
believe it is necessarily the objective of the charter to promote a =
philosophical bias toward any particular format, though it does make =
sense for the WG and charter to set some priorities - trying not to boil =
the ocean.=20
>=20
> There seems to be use case context (at least by the participants in =
the BOF) for 3 maybe 4 formats where ASN.1 appears to be the one on the =
edge (CBOR, JSON, YANG being the other less debated formats). ASN.1 =
isn't itself a cryptographic document format (IMO); for that we need to =
turn to something like CMS or X.509.=20
>=20
> A second, likely to be popular attestation scenario, can be =
characterized as an X.509 certificate chain having and EE certificate =
containing claims in an extension (or leverages some other extensibility =
capability described by RFC5280). In this scenario, it seems reasonable =
for the WG to have an ASN.1 description of the normative set of claims =
to avoid other organizations coming up with slight (but semantically =
similar) variants.=20
>=20
> If there is a use case for CMS, RFC5755 (attribute certs) or something =
else that describes a cryptographic document expressed in ASN.1, then it =
is a small / possibly inconsequential step required to include the ASN.1 =
formatted claims into one of these other document structures.=20
>=20
> Conceptually, the 'document' consists of a claims part and a signature =
part. The claim part could be expressed in one format (e.g. CBOR) while =
the signature part expressed in a different format (e.g. JWT). Given =
that perspective we can make lists of format types for claims and =
another for signed documents.
> E.g.
> Claims format possibilities:
> 	- CBOR, JSON, YANG, ASN.1
>=20
> Cryptographic document format possibilities:
> 	- CWT, JWT, YANG(?), CMS, X.509 Cert (RFC5280), Attr Cert =
(RFC5755)
>=20
> The charter / WG could set different priorities for each list. It =
could also set priority for, and/or limit, cross-format enveloping (e.g. =
JSON Claim inside a YANG cryptographic document etc).
>=20
> A third, possibly likely attestation scenario might do away with the =
X.509 certificate chain favoring for example a signed-document-only =
model or possibly an alternative certificate chain using CWT? I don't =
know if anyone is strongly advocating use cases in this third scenario. =
If not, it makes sense to leave it out of the charter for now.=20
>=20
> -Ned
>=20
> =EF=BB=BFOn 10/25/18, 8:06 AM, "Carl Wallace" =
<carl@redhoundsoftware.com> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>    On 10/25/18, 10:11 AM, "Laurence Lundblade" <lgl@island-resort.com> =
wrote:
>=20
>>=20
>>> On Oct 25, 2018, at 8:47 PM, Carl Wallace =
<carl@redhoundsoftware.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On 10/25/18, 9:15 AM, "RATS on behalf of Laurence Lundblade"
>>> <rats-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of lgl@island-resort.com> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>> <snip>
>>>>=20
>>>> So I am making some argument against ASN.1 and anything beyond JSON =
and
>>>> CBOR.  The more formats there are the more work the relying parties
>>>> will
>>>> have to do and of course some won=E2=80=99t implement all the =
formats and then
>>>> we=E2=80=99ll have less interop.
>>>=20
>>> [CW] At least where the claims are related to cryptographic keys, =
ASN.1
>>> is
>>> likely unavoidable as it's part of the environment. Avoiding it is =
not
>>> likely to help interop.
>>=20
>>=20
>> For an attestation in the vein of EAT you have a series of claims =
that
>> are signed. The sane thing to do is pick one format and apply it all =
the
>> way through. The claims are in JOSE format and you sign with JWT. The
>> claims are in CBOR and you sign with COSE. The claims are ASN.1 and =
you
>> sign in CMS.
>    [CW] It may shake out such that the claims I care about could be =
ASN.1
>    from top to bottom but I doubt it. Mixing formats doesn't seem like =
a
>    problem. Base64 encodings of DER encoded structures are quite =
common in
>    XML and JSON, for example. Including COSE or JOSE structure as an
>    attribute in an ASN.1 structure seems fine too.
>>=20
>>=20
>> It would be possible to have something like a PKCS10 CSR stuffed into =
a
>> CBOR byte string in a CBOR/COSE format attestation, but the overall
>> format of the attestation is CBOR/COSE. Maybe this is what you are =
after?
>=20
>    [CW] Not exactly. The CSR would contain a mix of data that is =
originated
>    by/protected by a hardware component and data that is external =
(e.g.,
>    challenge password). It's not clear to me orchestrating including =
the P10
>    in the attestation is the right path. Including a signed claim =
about key
>    provenance in a standard cert request seems sufficient and easy =
enough.
>>=20
>> Agreed that we might actually have to do this since there is no CBOR
>> format CSR (yet).
>=20
>    [CW] Not sure why that would be required. There was earlier mention =
of not
>    boiling the ocean, trying to recast everything as CBOR doesn't seem =
wise.
>>=20
>>=20
>> I can also see having to use X.509 for establishing trust in signing =
keys
>> since there is no CBOR format for certificates (yet). Jim Schaad was
>> working on extensions to COSE for this.
>>=20
>> Any other examples?
>=20
>    [CW] I shared a pile of examples via GitHub some weeks back -
>    https://github.com/Purebred/SampleAttestations. I will add Pixel 3
>    artifacts soon. I am not suggesting these as a basis for =
standardization,
>    but as illustrative of how attestations are used in certificate =
requests
>    in some environments. At present, w.r.t. demonstrating key =
provenance, we
>    are using:
>    	- Android attestations (X.509 certificates that chain to a =
specific root
>    represented as a certs-only SignedData),
>    	- Yubikey attestations (X.509 certificates that chain to a =
specific
>    rootrepresented as a certs-only SignedData) and
>    	- Surface Pro TPM attestations (CMC requests that wrap a mix of =
TCG and
>    Microsoft structures).
>=20
>    [CW] Each of these is attached to a SCEP request as an attribute. =
The
>    attestations are verified and the public key from the attestation =
is
>    compared to the public key in the SCEP request. We have another =
variant
>    that does use CBOR for some claims. In that case the Google =
attestation
>    certificate is included in the CBOR similar to your description =
above but
>    the CBOR layer isn't demonstrating key provenance in this case. =
SCEP, CMC
>    and EST all use similar attributes. It is not unlikely that a =
single spec
>    defining one or more attributes to convey attestations could be =
shared by
>    all three.=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> I would hope we can avoid CMS and creating ASN.1 syntax for every =
claim
>> we define.
>=20
>    [CW] I can't imagine this would be necessary.
>>=20
>> LL
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">(This isn=E2=80=99t really charter bashing anymore; think =
we=E2=80=99re mostly done with that)</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div>I=E2=80=99ll put this in the form of a proposal:<div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; =
border: none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">A =
set of claims about a device is aggregated into a 'token' (this is the =
term used in CWT/JWT) or =E2=80=98document'. That token/document will be =
signed. &nbsp;We will support only two formats for the =
token/document.</div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: =
none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">CWT: =
Claims are mainly in CBOR format, but we can stuff other things like =
commonly used ASN.1, XML, JSON... &nbsp;structures into an individual =
claim if necessary. Signing is COSE format, though COSE headers might =
carry X.509 certs to help identify and chain up to the verification =
key.</div></div></blockquote><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; =
border: none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><blockquote =
style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">JWT: Claims are mainly in JSON format, but we =
can stuff other things like commonly used ASN.1, XML, CBOR=E2=80=A6 =
structures into an individual claim if necessary. Signing is JOSE =
format, though JOSE headers might carry X.509 certs to help identify and =
chain up to the verification key.</div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D"">The number of formats should be minimized for =
interoperability so there are only two. There will be no top-level =
token/document formatted in ASN.1, XML or other. The main singing of the =
token will never be CMS. &nbsp;X.509 will not be used for the =
token/document format.</div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">YANG and/or CDDL =
will be used describe the claims that are to be encoded in CBOR and =
JSON. (YANG and CDDL are not encoding formats, just a language for =
describing structures at a higher level)</div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The good =
thing about CBOR and JSON and CWT and JWT is that they are good friends. =
CBOR was designed for easy conversion to/from JSON. CWT and JWT already =
share claims.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">I=E2=80=99m not sure if this addresses Carl=E2=80=99s use =
cases yet.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Oct 26, 2018, at 7:22 AM, Smith, Ned =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com" =
class=3D"">ned.smith@intel.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">I =
expect a common attestation scenario can be characterized as an X.509 =
certificate chain having an EE certificate whose private key owner signs =
a document containing claims. The document could be expressed in any of =
the formats being discussed here. Use case context may play a role in =
determining which document format is appropriate, and I don't believe it =
is necessarily the objective of the charter to promote a philosophical =
bias toward any particular format, though it does make sense for the WG =
and charter to set some priorities - trying not to boil the ocean. <br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">There seems to be use case context (at least =
by the participants in the BOF) for 3 maybe 4 formats where ASN.1 =
appears to be the one on the edge (CBOR, JSON, YANG being the other less =
debated formats). ASN.1 isn't itself a cryptographic document format =
(IMO); for that we need to turn to something like CMS or X.509. <br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">A second, likely to be popular attestation =
scenario, can be characterized as an X.509 certificate chain having and =
EE certificate containing claims in an extension (or leverages some =
other extensibility capability described by RFC5280). In this scenario, =
it seems reasonable for the WG to have an ASN.1 description of the =
normative set of claims to avoid other organizations coming up with =
slight (but semantically similar) variants. <br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">If there is a use case for CMS, RFC5755 (attribute certs) or =
something else that describes a cryptographic document expressed in =
ASN.1, then it is a small / possibly inconsequential step required to =
include the ASN.1 formatted claims into one of these other document =
structures. <br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Conceptually, the 'document' =
consists of a claims part and a signature part. The claim part could be =
expressed in one format (e.g. CBOR) while the signature part expressed =
in a different format (e.g. JWT). Given that perspective we can make =
lists of format types for claims and another for signed documents.<br =
class=3D"">E.g.<br class=3D"">Claims format possibilities:<br =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>- CBOR, JSON, YANG, ASN.1<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Cryptographic document format possibilities:<br =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>- CWT, JWT, YANG(?), CMS, X.509 Cert (RFC5280), Attr Cert =
(RFC5755)<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">The charter / WG could set =
different priorities for each list. It could also set priority for, =
and/or limit, cross-format enveloping (e.g. JSON Claim inside a YANG =
cryptographic document etc).<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">A third, =
possibly likely attestation scenario might do away with the X.509 =
certificate chain favoring for example a signed-document-only model or =
possibly an alternative certificate chain using CWT? I don't know if =
anyone is strongly advocating use cases in this third scenario. If not, =
it makes sense to leave it out of the charter for now. <br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">-Ned<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">=EF=BB=BFOn 10/25/18, 8:06 =
AM, "Carl Wallace" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:carl@redhoundsoftware.com" =
class=3D"">carl@redhoundsoftware.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;On 10/25/18, =
10:11 AM, "Laurence Lundblade" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" =
class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote=
 type=3D"cite" class=3D"">On Oct 25, 2018, at 8:47 PM, Carl Wallace =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:carl@redhoundsoftware.com" =
class=3D"">carl@redhoundsoftware.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">wrote:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">On 10/25/18, 9:15 AM, "RATS on =
behalf of Laurence Lundblade"<br class=3D"">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org" class=3D"">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>=
 on behalf of <a href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" =
class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">&lt;snip&gt;<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">So I am making some argument against ASN.1 and =
anything beyond JSON and<br class=3D"">CBOR. &nbsp;The more formats =
there are the more work the relying parties<br class=3D"">will<br =
class=3D"">have to do and of course some won=E2=80=99t implement all the =
formats and then<br class=3D"">we=E2=80=99ll have less interop.<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">[CW] At least where the claims =
are related to cryptographic keys, ASN.1<br class=3D"">is<br =
class=3D"">likely unavoidable as it's part of the environment. Avoiding =
it is not<br class=3D"">likely to help interop.<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">For an attestation =
in the vein of EAT you have a series of claims that<br class=3D"">are =
signed. The sane thing to do is pick one format and apply it all the<br =
class=3D"">way through. The claims are in JOSE format and you sign with =
JWT. The<br class=3D"">claims are in CBOR and you sign with COSE. The =
claims are ASN.1 and you<br class=3D"">sign in CMS.<br =
class=3D""></blockquote> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;[CW] It may shake out such =
that the claims I care about could be ASN.1<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;from top to bottom but I doubt it. Mixing formats =
doesn't seem like a<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;problem. Base64 =
encodings of DER encoded structures are quite common in<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;XML and JSON, for example. Including COSE or JOSE =
structure as an<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;attribute in an ASN.1 =
structure seems fine too.<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">It would be possible to have =
something like a PKCS10 CSR stuffed into a<br class=3D"">CBOR byte =
string in a CBOR/COSE format attestation, but the overall<br =
class=3D"">format of the attestation is CBOR/COSE. Maybe this is what =
you are after?<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;[CW] Not exactly. The CSR would contain a mix of data =
that is originated<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;by/protected by a =
hardware component and data that is external (e.g.,<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;challenge password). It's not clear to me =
orchestrating including the P10<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;in the =
attestation is the right path. Including a signed claim about key<br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;provenance in a standard cert request =
seems sufficient and easy enough.<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Agreed that we might actually have to do this =
since there is no CBOR<br class=3D"">format CSR (yet).<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;[CW] Not sure =
why that would be required. There was earlier mention of not<br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;boiling the ocean, trying to recast =
everything as CBOR doesn't seem wise.<br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I can also see =
having to use X.509 for establishing trust in signing keys<br =
class=3D"">since there is no CBOR format for certificates (yet). Jim =
Schaad was<br class=3D"">working on extensions to COSE for this.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Any other examples?<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;[CW] I shared =
a pile of examples via GitHub some weeks back -<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://github.com/Purebred/SampleAttestations" =
class=3D"">https://github.com/Purebred/SampleAttestations</a>. I will =
add Pixel 3<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;artifacts soon. I am not =
suggesting these as a basis for standardization,<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;but as illustrative of how attestations are used in =
certificate requests<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;in some =
environments. At present, w.r.t. demonstrating key provenance, we<br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;are using:<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>- Android attestations (X.509 =
certificates that chain to a specific root<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;represented as a certs-only SignedData),<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>- Yubikey attestations (X.509 =
certificates that chain to a specific<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;rootrepresented as a certs-only SignedData) and<br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>- Surface Pro TPM attestations =
(CMC requests that wrap a mix of TCG and<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Microsoft structures).<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;[CW] Each of these is attached to a SCEP request as an =
attribute. The<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;attestations are =
verified and the public key from the attestation is<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;compared to the public key in the SCEP request. We =
have another variant<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;that does use CBOR =
for some claims. In that case the Google attestation<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;certificate is included in the CBOR similar to your =
description above but<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;the CBOR layer =
isn't demonstrating key provenance in this case. SCEP, CMC<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;and EST all use similar attributes. It is not unlikely =
that a single spec<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;defining one or more =
attributes to convey attestations could be shared by<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;all three. <br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I would hope we can avoid CMS =
and creating ASN.1 syntax for every claim<br class=3D"">we define.<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;[CW] I can't =
imagine this would be necessary.<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">LL<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></div></body></html>=

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Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2018 09:30:33 -0500
From: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
Cc: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>,  "Jeremy O'Donoghue" <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Carl Wallace <carl@redhoundsoftware.com>, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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References: <0199DB00-E76E-4664-BE02-E2AF4F4B6AEC@intel.com> <526BB5AC-60A8-4CD3-95F4-39F210E4D2FB@island-resort.com> <D7F73FD8.C4179%carl@redhoundsoftware.com> <662EFF28-BC29-4C1F-BB00-086D449D6F0A@island-resort.com> <D7F74EE1.C41A5%carl@redhoundsoftware.com> <AF8EF7CD-9024-4BD6-B6B7-03327F9EA0F9@intel.com> <4E928A1C-F207-4661-B176-0DADF12EF705@island-resort.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT] Attestation BoF charter updates? - Program of Work section
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On Fri, Oct 26, 2018 at 12:12:58PM +0700, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
> (This isn’t really charter bashing anymore; think we’re mostly done with that)
> 
> I’ll put this in the form of a proposal:
> 
> A set of claims about a device is aggregated into a 'token' (this is the term used in CWT/JWT) or ‘document'. That token/document will be signed.  We will support only two formats for the token/document.
> 
> CWT: Claims are mainly in CBOR format, but we can stuff other things like commonly used ASN.1, XML, JSON...  structures into an individual claim if necessary. Signing is COSE format, though COSE headers might carry X.509 certs to help identify and chain up to the verification key.
> 
> JWT: Claims are mainly in JSON format, but we can stuff other things like commonly used ASN.1, XML, CBOR… structures into an individual claim if necessary. Signing is JOSE format, though JOSE headers might carry X.509 certs to help identify and chain up to the verification key.

There is perhaps something of a philosophical question about stuffing
ASN.1, XML, etc. structures into individual claims, in that "can you really
trust the signer to vouch for what it's signing if the signed contents are
in a format unknown to the signer?"  There are certainly ways to delegate
or chain trust so that the answer to the question is "yes", but I do not
think we should ignore the question entirely.

-Ben


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From: Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org>
To: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Preliminary RATS Bof Agenda v2
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Hello!

To synthesize the earlier conversation on the agenda at [1], please conside=
r the following:

(It reshuffles the topics around why they are on the agenda; and leaves stu=
bs for where we might need more conversation.)

=3D=3D[ snip ]=3D=3D
1)  Introduction, Logistics and Agenda Bash (chairs)

2)  Problem Statement (Ned & Henk)
-- Problem Statement
-- Who has this problem?
-- Related work in and outside the IETF

3)  State of the Practice
(3a) Cisco (Eric)=20
Compromise Trustworthy Visibility in Working Systems
-- https://www.cisco.com/c/dam/en/us/td/docs/cloud-systems-management/appli=
cation-policy-infrastructure-controller-enterprise-module/1-5-x/integrity_v=
erification/user-guide/Cisco_Integrity_Verification_Application_APIC-EM_Use=
r_Guide_1_5_0_x.pdf

(3b) ??? FIDO, Android Keystore, etc ???

4) An Attestation Format (TBD)
-- The Entity Attestation Token
-- draft-mandyam-eat-00

5) Discussion (open mic)

6) Charter Text Discussion (chairs)

7) Wrap-Up (chairs)
=3D=3D[ snip ]=3D=3D

Comments?

Regards,
Roman

[1] https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/rats/current/msg00141.html


From nobody Fri Oct 26 07:56:43 2018
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From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
In-Reply-To: <20181026143033.GK45914@kduck.kaduk.org>
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2018 21:56:27 +0700
Cc: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>, Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Carl Wallace <carl@redhoundsoftware.com>, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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References: <0199DB00-E76E-4664-BE02-E2AF4F4B6AEC@intel.com> <526BB5AC-60A8-4CD3-95F4-39F210E4D2FB@island-resort.com> <D7F73FD8.C4179%carl@redhoundsoftware.com> <662EFF28-BC29-4C1F-BB00-086D449D6F0A@island-resort.com> <D7F74EE1.C41A5%carl@redhoundsoftware.com> <AF8EF7CD-9024-4BD6-B6B7-03327F9EA0F9@intel.com> <4E928A1C-F207-4661-B176-0DADF12EF705@island-resort.com> <20181026143033.GK45914@kduck.kaduk.org>
To: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/J2gOy8VuEz17zzJifmHxVz1cIY0>
Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT] Attestation BoF charter updates? - Program of Work section
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See end...

> On Oct 26, 2018, at 9:30 PM, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> wrote:
>=20
> On Fri, Oct 26, 2018 at 12:12:58PM +0700, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>> (This isn=E2=80=99t really charter bashing anymore; think we=E2=80=99re=
 mostly done with that)
>>=20
>> I=E2=80=99ll put this in the form of a proposal:
>>=20
>> A set of claims about a device is aggregated into a 'token' (this is =
the term used in CWT/JWT) or =E2=80=98document'. That token/document =
will be signed.  We will support only two formats for the =
token/document.
>>=20
>> CWT: Claims are mainly in CBOR format, but we can stuff other things =
like commonly used ASN.1, XML, JSON...  structures into an individual =
claim if necessary. Signing is COSE format, though COSE headers might =
carry X.509 certs to help identify and chain up to the verification key.
>>=20
>> JWT: Claims are mainly in JSON format, but we can stuff other things =
like commonly used ASN.1, XML, CBOR=E2=80=A6 structures into an =
individual claim if necessary. Signing is JOSE format, though JOSE =
headers might carry X.509 certs to help identify and chain up to the =
verification key.
>=20
> There is perhaps something of a philosophical question about stuffing
> ASN.1, XML, etc. structures into individual claims, in that "can you =
really
> trust the signer to vouch for what it's signing if the signed contents =
are
> in a format unknown to the signer?"  There are certainly ways to =
delegate
> or chain trust so that the answer to the question is "yes", but I do =
not
> think we should ignore the question entirely.

I don=E2=80=99t think the format matters in this case. The basis for the =
signer trusting what it signs is not dependent on the format. Some one =
feeding bad data to the signer could just as well feed it in the format =
the signer typically uses.

What matters is the SW architecture and implementation on the device. In =
a simple set up the signer might be in the kernel and only sign data =
that also came from the kernel. Or it could be in TrustZone or an =
embedded Secure Element and only sign data that came from the same. In =
something more complicated the signer could be in the kernel and accept =
data from user mode processes, but mark it specially (this is what the =
submods claims is for in EAT).  The nonce from the relying party always =
comes from far away, but it is special and it doesn=E2=80=99t matter. If =
a MiTM changes the nonce, the relying party will know.=20

LL




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Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2018 10:05:21 -0500
From: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
Cc: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>, "Jeremy O'Donoghue" <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>, "eat@ietf.org" <eat@ietf.org>, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, Carl Wallace <carl@redhoundsoftware.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
Message-ID: <20181026150521.GM45914@kduck.kaduk.org>
References: <0199DB00-E76E-4664-BE02-E2AF4F4B6AEC@intel.com> <526BB5AC-60A8-4CD3-95F4-39F210E4D2FB@island-resort.com> <D7F73FD8.C4179%carl@redhoundsoftware.com> <662EFF28-BC29-4C1F-BB00-086D449D6F0A@island-resort.com> <D7F74EE1.C41A5%carl@redhoundsoftware.com> <AF8EF7CD-9024-4BD6-B6B7-03327F9EA0F9@intel.com> <4E928A1C-F207-4661-B176-0DADF12EF705@island-resort.com> <20181026143033.GK45914@kduck.kaduk.org> <4B026885-9349-412C-8E47-A71BB866EDCC@island-resort.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EAT] Attestation BoF charter updates? - Program of Work section
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On Fri, Oct 26, 2018 at 09:56:27PM +0700, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
> See end...
> 
> > On Oct 26, 2018, at 9:30 PM, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> wrote:
> > 
> > On Fri, Oct 26, 2018 at 12:12:58PM +0700, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
> >> (This isn’t really charter bashing anymore; think we’re mostly done with that)
> >> 
> >> I’ll put this in the form of a proposal:
> >> 
> >> A set of claims about a device is aggregated into a 'token' (this is the term used in CWT/JWT) or ‘document'. That token/document will be signed.  We will support only two formats for the token/document.
> >> 
> >> CWT: Claims are mainly in CBOR format, but we can stuff other things like commonly used ASN.1, XML, JSON...  structures into an individual claim if necessary. Signing is COSE format, though COSE headers might carry X.509 certs to help identify and chain up to the verification key.
> >> 
> >> JWT: Claims are mainly in JSON format, but we can stuff other things like commonly used ASN.1, XML, CBOR… structures into an individual claim if necessary. Signing is JOSE format, though JOSE headers might carry X.509 certs to help identify and chain up to the verification key.
> > 
> > There is perhaps something of a philosophical question about stuffing
> > ASN.1, XML, etc. structures into individual claims, in that "can you really
> > trust the signer to vouch for what it's signing if the signed contents are
> > in a format unknown to the signer?"  There are certainly ways to delegate
> > or chain trust so that the answer to the question is "yes", but I do not
> > think we should ignore the question entirely.
> 
> I don’t think the format matters in this case. The basis for the signer trusting what it signs is not dependent on the format. Some one feeding bad data to the signer could just as well feed it in the format the signer typically uses.
> 
> What matters is the SW architecture and implementation on the device. In a simple set up the signer might be in the kernel and only sign data that also came from the kernel. Or it could be in TrustZone or an embedded Secure Element and only sign data that came from the same. In something more complicated the signer could be in the kernel and accept data from user mode processes, but mark it specially (this is what the submods claims is for in EAT).  The nonce from the relying party always comes from far away, but it is special and it doesn’t matter. If a MiTM changes the nonce, the relying party will know. 

I agree that the overall system design can include trusted elements feeding
information to the signer, in which case the decision about what gets
signed is made by the individual trusted elements and the signer itself
need not know the formats of the individual claims.  If that's the
architecture we want to use, we just need to be explicit about it.

-Ben


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From: Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org>
To: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Feedback on the RC3 draft charter text
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Subject: [Rats] Feedback on the RC3 draft charter text
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Hello!

I reviewed the v3 draft charter text at https://github.com/ietf-rats/charte=
r/blob/RC3/ietf-rats-charter.md, and had the following feedback/recommendat=
ions/questions:

(1) Use consistent language for the "things" participating in the attestati=
ons.  Each section uses slightly different language -- "devices and service=
s"/"communication partner"/"relying party" (in introduction); "devices, ser=
vices and other third parties" (in high level goals); or "systems/entities"=
, "system/remote party" (in Program of Work).

(2) In the introductory section, I wanted to read a bit more about the cont=
ext -- establish why RATS is needed; notionally define what "trust" and "tr=
ustworthiness" means; what is the continuum of "communication partners" und=
er consideration.

(3) Per this sentence in the introduction, "In the absence of such procedur=
es, while domain-specific attestation mechanisms such as TCG TPM/TSS, FIDO =
Alliance attestation and Android Keystore attestation exist, there is no co=
mmon way for a relying party to tell if data originates from a trustworthy =
device or not.":

** I recommend removing the "In the absence of such procedures" phrase.  It=
 is redundant.

** I like that this sentence acknowledges the related work.  In this sectio=
n, the list of related work is "TCG TPM/TSS, FIDO and Keystore".  In the Hi=
gh Level Goals section, another set of related work is listed, "Global Plat=
form, TCG and FIDO".  Are these meant to be different.  Couldn't Global Pla=
tform also be listed in this sentence.

** Per the notion that the domain-specific attestation methods aren't adequ=
ate,  is the language "there no common way" the same as "there is no genera=
l purpose way"? =20

(4) I struggled with the text in the "high level goals" section as the deta=
ils of the WG goals are buried in the text.  I would recommend opening this=
 section with a declarative statement of the form "The goal of the RATS wor=
king group is to specify the formats, protocols and procedures needed to cr=
eate and verify trust relationships suitable for remote attestation."

The sentence "Correspondingly, the RATS WG will facilitate full device atte=
station ..." introduces new terminology for me that begs explanation (and w=
asn't references in the introduction). =20

IMO the two bullets, under "The WG will define .." aren't necessary because=
 the next section already abstractly defines the activities and there will =
eventually be a set of milestones that will be even more specific.

(5) Program of Work: Per, "The Working Group will develop standards support=
ing the creation of interoperable remote attestation procedures for systems=
 and entities which incorporate roots of trust.":

I wasn't able to tell if the closing phrase "which incorporates roots of tr=
ust" was intended to scope the problem.  In the previous section which disc=
ussed High Level goals, RATS was going to work with both "roots of trust or=
 trust anchors".  I'd recommend consistency in language.

(6) Program of Work.  Activity 1

I recommend simplification as follows:

- "Specify an architecture establishing a common terminology for remote att=
estation, identifying mechanisms which will be supported for establishing t=
rust relationships between a system and a remote party, and enumerating sam=
ple use-cases for remote attestation."
+ "Specify a reference architecture that defines common terminology and sam=
ples use cases for remote attestation"

(7) Program of Work.  Activity 2

I recommend simplification as follows:

-"Specify interoperable cross-platform claims which provide information abo=
ut systems and entities in support of the required use-cases, and extending=
 the set of claims defined in RFC7519 and RFC8392. The specification will d=
escribe the syntax for each claim in at least the following formats:"
+"Extend the set of claims defined in RFC7519 and RFC8392 with additional o=
nes applicable to the required remote attestation use cases."

The activity makes reference to "retaining interoperability with existing f=
ormats based on ASN.1".  What are those formats?  They should be stated exp=
licitly.

(8) Program of Work.  Activity 4

As it relates to claims specification, I'm not sure how this would be diffe=
rent than Activity #2.

(9) Program of Work Activity 6

I recommend dropping this bullet.  This analysis should be an implicit acti=
vity but not a deliverable.

Roman


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From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Feedback on the RC3 draft charter text
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Hi Roman,

thank you for the detailed input. A few first thoughts in-line (most of 
them most certainly not final).

Viele Grüße,

Henk



On 10/26/2018 09:54 PM, Roman Danyliw wrote:
> Hello!
> 
> I reviewed the v3 draft charter text at https://github.com/ietf-rats/charter/blob/RC3/ietf-rats-charter.md, and had the following feedback/recommendations/questions:
> 
> (1) Use consistent language for the "things" participating in the attestations.  Each section uses slightly different language -- "devices and services"/"communication partner"/"relying party" (in introduction); "devices, services and other third parties" (in high level goals); or "systems/entities", "system/remote party" (in Program of Work).

Understood. There was a deliberate attempt to remove a terminology 
subsection (charter size/readability/complexity amongst others). The 
reasoning behind that: if you go down the path of defining terms, the 
"common terms" that are used a bit loosely right now have to be "nailed 
down". There are at least four side effects to that, I think:

1.) everybody gets a better understanding of what a terms mean
2.) the charter will increase in size
3.) more terms will have to be defined as there are now, because precise 
definition will lead to more precise specialization
4.) using the "correct" terms in the "correct" places might re-initiate 
the cycle of discussion we were attempting to break (I am neutral on this)

Having said that, I am still rather confident that we can agree on a set 
of terms here, but it will not be limited to the taxonomy that is 
implicitly defined via "devices and services"/"communication 
partner"/"relying party" and similar examples that were highlighted. The 
different flavors of roots of trust (which we do barely elaborate on) 
require a more fine grained definition of terms in any case. I am okay 
with this (as that was the initial approach), but I am not sure about 
the impact on current consensus in the scope that is this list.

> 
> (2) In the introductory section, I wanted to read a bit more about the context -- establish why RATS is needed; notionally define what "trust" and "trustworthiness" means; what is the continuum of "communication partners" under consideration.

These terms are defined rather explicit or via minor derivation from 
RFC4949, maybe a reference might mitigate that?

> 
> (3) Per this sentence in the introduction, "In the absence of such procedures, while domain-specific attestation mechanisms such as TCG TPM/TSS, FIDO Alliance attestation and Android Keystore attestation exist, there is no common way for a relying party to tell if data originates from a trustworthy device or not.":
> 
> ** I recommend removing the "In the absence of such procedures" phrase.  It is redundant.

No objection

> 
> ** I like that this sentence acknowledges the related work.  In this section, the list of related work is "TCG TPM/TSS, FIDO and Keystore".  In the High Level Goals section, another set of related work is listed, "Global Platform, TCG and FIDO".  Are these meant to be different.  Couldn't Global Platform also be listed in this sentence.

Yes

> 
> ** Per the notion that the domain-specific attestation methods aren't adequate,  is the language "there no common way" the same as "there is no general purpose way"?

If you would ask me, there is a significant difference between purpose 
(effectively  intended) and common (effectively realized) way. But that 
PoV is probably my very own specific one.

> 
> (4) I struggled with the text in the "high level goals" section as the details of the WG goals are buried in the text.  I would recommend opening this section with a declarative statement of the form "The goal of the RATS working group is to specify the formats, protocols and procedures needed to create and verify trust relationships suitable for remote attestation."

This sounds like the statement of work. Does this imply we might not 
need a high level overview here (which intrinsically is redundant to the 
actual work by being a generalized overview)?

> 
> The sentence "Correspondingly, the RATS WG will facilitate full device attestation ..." introduces new terminology for me that begs explanation (and wasn't references in the introduction).
> 
> IMO the two bullets, under "The WG will define .." aren't necessary because the next section already abstractly defines the activities and there will eventually be a set of milestones that will be even more specific.

Yes, there are new terms here. They are important to some stakeholders 
and probably not as important to others (which is true to every work 
item, I assume). I am not sure how to remidiate that without a dedicated 
terminology section, which we tried to avoid based on multiple 
recommendations. I'd really like to address this specific comment (not 
with proposals right now, I mean, but conceptually). Hence, this is one 
of the points, where more guidance wrt to intent and scope of your 
comment would really help, I think.

> 
> (5) Program of Work: Per, "The Working Group will develop standards supporting the creation of interoperable remote attestation procedures for systems and entities which incorporate roots of trust.":
> 
> I wasn't able to tell if the closing phrase "which incorporates roots of trust" was intended to scope the problem.  In the previous section which discussed High Level goals, RATS was going to work with both "roots of trust or trust anchors".  I'd recommend consistency in language.

Personally, I would boil it down to RoT and go into the details of RoT 
and TA in draft text. I was the one, who introduced it. I am okay with 
removing TA again.

> 
> (6) Program of Work.  Activity 1
> 
> I recommend simplification as follows:
> 
> - "Specify an architecture establishing a common terminology for remote attestation, identifying mechanisms which will be supported for establishing trust relationships between a system and a remote party, and enumerating sample use-cases for remote attestation."
> + "Specify a reference architecture that defines common terminology and samples use cases for remote attestation"

Simpler, but allowing for more ambiguous scope, I think. Leaning a bit 
more to simplicity, I'd not object.

> 
> (7) Program of Work.  Activity 2
> 
> I recommend simplification as follows:
> 
> -"Specify interoperable cross-platform claims which provide information about systems and entities in support of the required use-cases, and extending the set of claims defined in RFC7519 and RFC8392. The specification will describe the syntax for each claim in at least the following formats:"
> +"Extend the set of claims defined in RFC7519 and RFC8392 with additional ones applicable to the required remote attestation use cases."

On one hand, this could imply that "required use-cases" might be a way 
to channel everything into the scope of work. On the other hand, it 
sounds way simpler, which is the +1 here.

> 
> The activity makes reference to "retaining interoperability with existing formats based on ASN.1".  What are those formats?  They should be stated explicitly.

Do you mean DER/BER/PEM (which is simple) or the semantics they were 
burdened with in the last 25 years (which is hard)?

> 
> (8) Program of Work.  Activity 4
> 
> As it relates to claims specification, I'm not sure how this would be different than Activity #2.

That is true. But I think that is also rather relevant to other 
stakeholders, who can most likely provide more detaila on this matter.

> 
> (9) Program of Work Activity 6
> 
> I recommend dropping this bullet.  This analysis should be an implicit activity but not a deliverable.

Then it should not be dropped, but moved one section up, right? It most 
certainly does seem relevant due to endorsement on the list.

> 
> Roman

Viele Grüße,

Henk

> 
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
> 


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From: Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org>
To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] Feedback on the RC3 draft charter text
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From: Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org>
To: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Draft agenda for IETF 103
Thread-Index: AdRwVKCJON041PwFSTi+XlWckMv9tw==
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 13:32:33 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/T2TmFt_s1XQ9kO0pEIoMN8b7oWM>
Subject: [Rats] Draft agenda for IETF 103
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Hello!

The RATS BoF will be on Tuesday, November 6, 2018, from 13:50-15:50 	in Chi=
tlada 2 at IETF 103.  A draft agenda for the meeting has been posted at:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/103/materials/agenda-103-rats-00

This agenda contains placeholders for topics and the currently planned stru=
cture of the discussion.  In the next few days, we'll provide a more specif=
ic update.  If you would like time on the agenda please let the chairs know=
.=20

Regards,
Roman and Karen


From nobody Tue Oct 30 07:12:26 2018
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From: Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org>
To: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Draft agenda for IETF 103
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Draft agenda for IETF 103
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** Not enough coffee **  ...

> -----Original Message-----
> Subject: Draft agenda for IETF 103
>=20
> Hello!
>=20
> The RATS BoF will be on Tuesday, November 6, 2018, from 13:50-15:50 	in
> Chitlada 2 at IETF 103.  A draft agenda for the meeting has been posted a=
t:
[snip]

> Regards,
> Roman and Karen

Nancy and Roman (as the co-chairs)


From nobody Tue Oct 30 08:20:30 2018
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From: "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" <ncamwing@cisco.com>
To: Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] Draft agenda for IETF 103
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