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From: "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" <ncamwing@cisco.com>
To: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] Call for charter consensus
Thread-Index: AQHUvLcvPyUkBWz7R0aPphvOTc+DPQ==
Date: Mon, 4 Feb 2019 18:26:47 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for charter consensus
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--_000_24D5C5AD98CA4242B01C17B5ABB82B23ciscocom_--


From nobody Tue Feb  5 20:13:38 2019
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I am balloting "yes", but have a few minor comments. These need not block
external review, but might should be considered prior to approval:

- "The WG will also evaluate prior work such
as NEA and proprietary attestation technologies."

Since I assume the group plans to create standards track specifications, there
is a good chance any given "proprietary" technology will have restrictions that
prevent its use. It might be worth adding a few words about any such
proprietary standard being sufficiently open for IETF purposes.  (I'm
specifically not thinking about patents so much as license restrictions on the
specifications themselves.)

(nit): I find the repeated use of "assertions/claims" a bit jarring. Are they
assertions? Claims? Both?

Please consider whether item 1 under "Program of work" needs to be published as
RFCs or can be published via some alternative channel (e.g. Working Group wiki).



From nobody Tue Feb  5 23:03:07 2019
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

The charter contents look generally good to me, although I have some
copy-editing suggestions to make. I also agree with Ben that the charter needs
to be clear about whether the referenced support documents are intended for
publication as RFCs.

One substantive comment first:

> The architecture may include a system security model
> for the signing key material and involve at least the system component, system
> component provider, and the relying authority.

It's not clear to me whether this is intended to include/leverage an existing
PKI, establish a new PKI, or use some other scheme to establish trusted roots.
It seems that some of these options could end up being rather far ranging. I
don't feel strongly about what the correct answer is, but I think we want the
charter to make it clear whether such potentially broad tasks are in scope for
the working group, or if the models to be considered should be more
constrained.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

The introduction of the charter is a bit jarring in the way that it jumps in
without first giving an indication of the technology field being dealt with.
Starting with an introductory sentence -- or even a clause -- indicating that
the working group is dealing with component attribute attestation would help.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

> To improve the confidence in a system component's trustworthiness a relying
> party may require evidence about:

Nit: "...trustworthiness, a relying..."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

> While domain-specific attestation mechanisms such as Trusted Computing Group
> (TCG) Trusted Platform Module (TPM)/Trusted Software Stack (TSS), Fast
> Identity Online (FIDO) Alliance attestation and Android Keystore attestation

Consider an Oxford comma before "and Android".

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

> While a relying party may use
> reference values to assess the assertions/claims the procedures for this
> activity are out of scope for this WG.

Nit: "...claims, the procedures..."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

> The working group will cooperate and coordinate with other IETF WG such as
> TEEP, SUIT and SACM as appropriate.

Consider an Oxford comma before "and SACM".

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

> 3. Standardize data models that implements and secures the defined information

Nit: "...models that implement and secure..." or "...a data model that
implements and secures..."



From nobody Wed Feb  6 03:25:38 2019
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COMMENT:
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I don't have a strong feeling on whether or not the use cases document needs to
be published, but I agree that the question should be considered.

>4. Standardize interoperable protocols to securely convey assertions/claims.

Is plural intended here?



From nobody Wed Feb  6 03:52:58 2019
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Mirja Kühlewind has entered the following ballot position for
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COMMENT:
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Regarding use cases, I would actually rather prefer that the core use cases are
already defined at charter time (in the charter). I'm not sure it that is
possible for this group but it can be good start with one or two use cases that
are mentioned in the charter and then update the charter if there is a real
need to include more use cases in future.



From nobody Thu Feb  7 00:35:54 2019
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Hello,

I mostly have questions for clarifications. Thank you.

   Relying parties require evidence about the trustworthiness of remote system
   components [RFC4949] they interact with. Remote attestation procedures (RATS)
   enable relying parties to establish a level of confidence in the
   trustworthiness of remote system components by creating and processing
   attestation evidence.
I'm not a native English reader, but this sentence gives me the impression that
the relying parties will create the attestation evidence.
Is that the case? My limited understanding of the topic makes me think that the
remote system will create the attestation and the relying parties will process
it.

   While a relying party may use reference values to assess the
   assertions/claims the procedures for this activity are out of scope for this
   WG.
I can understand why, but I would also see some value in having a document
which would cover this.

About the "proprietary attestation technologies", are these publicly
available/accessible? (similar to Ben's question)

   The architecture may include a system security model for the signing key
   material and involve at least the system component, system component
   provider, and the relying authority.
Does that imply new work or is it just about reusing what may already exist?
But I see Adam had a similar question.



From nobody Thu Feb  7 06:36:56 2019
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Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
BLOCK:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Given that the data to be exchanged for remote attestation purposes could be
security-sensitive or could be used to fingerprint a device or identify a user,
I think the charter needs to explicitly state what the WG's goals are for
taking the protection of this data into account.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Given that TCG and FIDO Alliance work are both mentioned, I wonder if it is
worth explicitly saying that the WG will coordinate with them as necessary.

I would suggest being explicit about whether the use cases are expected to be
documented in a stand-alone document, and if so whether the WG intends for that
document to be published as an RFC.

"While a relying party may use reference values to assess the assertions/claims
the procedures for this activity are out of scope for this WG." --> It's not
immediately obvious to me what "reference values" means in this context. Might
be my ignorance but figured I would note it.



From nobody Thu Feb  7 06:43:08 2019
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
BLOCK:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Given that the data to be exchanged for remote attestation purposes could be
security-sensitive or could be used to fingerprint a device or identify a user,
I think the charter needs to explicitly state what the WG's goals are for
taking the protection of this data into account.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Given that TCG and FIDO Alliance work are both mentioned, I wonder if it is
worth explicitly saying that the WG will coordinate with them as necessary.

I would suggest being explicit about whether the use cases are expected to be
documented in a stand-alone document, and if so whether the WG intends for that
document to be published as an RFC.

"While a relying party may use reference values to assess the assertions/claims
the procedures for this activity are out of scope for this WG." --> It's not
immediately obvious to me what "reference values" means in this context. Might
be my ignorance but figured I would note it.



From nobody Thu Feb  7 08:14:04 2019
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From: Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org>
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From: Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org>
To: Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
CC: "rats-chairs@ietf.org" <rats-chairs@ietf.org>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Alissa Cooper's Block on charter-ietf-rats-00-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT)
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Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2019 16:31:46 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Alissa Cooper's Block on charter-ietf-rats-00-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT)
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From: Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org>
To: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Complete charter language in response to IESG feedback
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Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2019 16:33:36 +0000
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Subject: [Rats] Complete charter language in response to IESG feedback
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Hello!

For reference, this is the complete charter language in response to the fol=
lowing IESG feedback:

https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/XubbghLAJD73HXA6SdYWwvj0kBY

Roman

=3D=3D[ snip]=3D=3D
Introduction

Relying parties require evidence about the trustworthiness of remote system=
 components [RFC4949] they interact with. Remote attestation procedures (RA=
TS) enable relying parties to establish a level of confidence in the trustw=
orthiness of remote system components by creating and processing attestatio=
n evidence. A relying party can then decide whether to consider a remote sy=
stem component trustworthy or not.

To improve the confidence in a system component's trustworthiness a relying=
 party may require evidence about:
* system component identity,
* composition of system components, including nested components,
* roots of trust,
* assertion/claim origination or provenance,
* manufacturing origin,
* system component integrity,
* system component configuration, or
* operational state and measurements of steps which led to the operational =
state.

While domain-specific attestation mechanisms such as Trusted Computing Grou=
p (TCG) Trusted Platform Module (TPM)/Trusted Software Stack (TSS), Fast Id=
entity Online (FIDO) Alliance attestation and Android Keystore attestation =
exist, there is no interoperable way to create and process attestation evid=
ence to make determinations about system components among relying parties o=
f different manufactures and origins.=20

Goals

This WG will standardize formats for describing assertions/claims about sys=
tem components and associated evidence; and procedures and protocols to con=
vey these assertions/claims to relying parties.  Given the security and pri=
vacy sensitive nature of these assertions/claims, the WG will specify appro=
aches to protect this exchanged data.  While a relying party may use refere=
nce, known or expected values or thresholds to assess the assertions/claims=
, the procedures for this activity are out of scope for this WG.

The working group will cooperate and coordinate with other IETF WGs such as=
 TEEP, SUIT and SACM; and work with organizations in the community, such as=
 TCG, Android Keystore and FIDO Alliance, as appropriate.  The WG will also=
 evaluate prior work such as NEA and proprietary attestation technologies. =
 The WG will also evaluate prior work such as NEA and proprietary attestati=
on technologies.

Program of Work

The working group will develop standards supporting interoperable remote at=
testation procedures for system components. The main deliverables are as fo=
llows:

1. Specify use cases for remote attestation.

2. Specify terminology and architecture that enable attestation techniques.=
  The architecture may include a system security model for the signing key =
material and involve at least the system component, system component provid=
er, and the relying authority.

3. Standardize an information model for assertions/claims which provide inf=
ormation about system components characteristics scoped by the specified us=
e-cases.

4. Standardize data models that implements and secures the defined informat=
ion model (e.g., CBOR Web Token structures [RFC8392], JSON Web Token struct=
ures [RFC7519]).

5. Standardize interoperable protocols to securely convey assertions/claims=
.


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From: Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in>
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Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2019 11:43:47 -0500
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Cc: IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "rats-chairs@ietf.org" <rats-chairs@ietf.org>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
To: Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org>
References: <154955058697.31121.7223894559382374179.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC01857B7DC9@marathon>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Alissa Cooper's Block on charter-ietf-rats-00-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT)
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Thanks, all looks good except I have one question below.

> On Feb 7, 2019, at 11:13 AM, Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org> wrote:
>=20
>> I would suggest being explicit about whether the use cases are =
expected to
>> be documented in a stand-alone document, and if so whether the WG
>> intends for that document to be published as an RFC.
>=20
> Yes, there is a desire to publish use cases.

Is there a particular reasoning for publishing these in the archival =
series? (See =
<https://www.ietf.org/blog/support-documents-ietf-working-groups/?primary_=
topic=3D7&>.)

Thanks,
Alissa

>=20
> OLD:
> 1. Specify a terminology, architecture and use cases that enable =
explicit (a
> set of verifiable assertion/claims is transported in the attestation) =
and
> implicit (a set of assertions/claims is implied by possession of a =
secret)
> attestation techniques. The architecture may include a system security =
model
> for the signing key material and involve at least the system =
component, system
> component provider, and the relying authority.
>=20
> NEW:
> 1. Specify use cases for remote attestation.
>=20
> 2. Specify terminology and architecture that enable attestation =
techniques.  The architecture may include a system security model for =
the signing key material and involve at least the system component, =
system component provider, and the relying authority.
>=20
> 3. [... renumber the rest as a +1]


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Thanks, all looks good except I have one question below.<br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Feb 7, 2019, at 11:13 AM, Roman Danyliw &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rdd@cert.org" class=3D"">rdd@cert.org</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><div class=3D""><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">I would suggest being explicit about =
whether the use cases are expected to<br class=3D"">be documented in a =
stand-alone document, and if so whether the WG<br class=3D"">intends for =
that document to be published as an RFC.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">Yes, there is a desire to =
publish use cases.</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Is there a particular reasoning for publishing =
these in the archival series? (See &lt;<a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/blog/support-documents-ietf-working-groups/?p=
rimary_topic=3D7&amp;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/blog/support-documents-ietf-working-groups=
/?primary_topic=3D7&amp;</a>&gt;.)</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Alissa</div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">OLD:</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">1. Specify a terminology, =
architecture and use cases that enable explicit (a</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">set of verifiable =
assertion/claims is transported in the attestation) and</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">implicit (a set of =
assertions/claims is implied by possession of a secret)</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">attestation techniques. The =
architecture may include a system security model</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">for the signing key material and =
involve at least the system component, system</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">component provider, and the =
relying authority.</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">NEW:</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">1. Specify use cases for remote attestation.</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">2. Specify terminology and =
architecture that enable attestation techniques. &nbsp;The architecture =
may include a system security model for the signing key material and =
involve at least the system component, system component provider, and =
the relying authority.</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">3. [... renumber the rest as a =
+1]</span></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=

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Thread-Topic: [Rats] Complete charter language in response to IESG feedback
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From: Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org>
To: Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in>
CC: IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "rats-chairs@ietf.org" <rats-chairs@ietf.org>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Alissa Cooper's Block on charter-ietf-rats-00-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT)
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Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2019 17:30:32 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Alissa Cooper's Block on charter-ietf-rats-00-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT)
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> From: Alissa Cooper [mailto:alissa@cooperw.in]
> Sent: Thursday, February 07, 2019 11:44 AM
> To: Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org>
> Cc: IESG <iesg@ietf.org>; rats-chairs@ietf.org; rats@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: Alissa Cooper's Block on charter-ietf-rats-00-00: (with BLOC=
K and
> COMMENT)
>=20
> Thanks, all looks good except I have one question below.
>=20
>=20
> On Feb 7, 2019, at 11:13 AM, Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org> wrote:
>=20
>=20
> I would suggest being explicit about whether the use cases are expected t=
o
> be documented in a stand-alone document, and if so whether the WG
> intends for that document to be published as an RFC.
>=20
> Yes, there is a desire to publish use cases.
>=20
> Is there a particular reasoning for publishing these in the archival seri=
es? (See
> <https://www.ietf.org/blog/support-documents-ietf-working-
> groups/?primary_topic=3D7&>.)

As I recollect, the consensus was around having a use case document, but th=
ere was limited discussion on how it should be published.  Perhaps this can=
 be left to the WG and codified as:

OLD (preamble to Program of Work):
The working group will develop standards supporting interoperable remote at=
testation procedures for system components. The main deliverables are as fo=
llows.

NEW:

The working group will develop standards supporting interoperable remote at=
testation procedures for system components. The main deliverables are descr=
ibed below.  The WG may chose not to formally publish all of the support do=
cuments as RFCs.
=20
Roman

> Thanks,
> Alissa
>=20
>=20
>=20
> OLD:
> 1. Specify a terminology, architecture and use cases that enable explicit=
 (a set
> of verifiable assertion/claims is transported in the attestation) and imp=
licit (a
> set of assertions/claims is implied by possession of a secret) attestatio=
n
> techniques. The architecture may include a system security model for the
> signing key material and involve at least the system component, system
> component provider, and the relying authority.
>=20
> NEW:
> 1. Specify use cases for remote attestation.
>=20
> 2. Specify terminology and architecture that enable attestation
> techniques. =A0The architecture may include a system security model for t=
he
> signing key material and involve at least the system component, system
> component provider, and the relying authority.
>=20
> 3. [... renumber the rest as a +1]


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Subject: Re: [Rats] Alissa Cooper's Block on charter-ietf-rats-00-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT)
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Below...

> On Feb 7, 2019, at 10:31 AM, Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org> wrote:
>=20
>>=20
>>> =
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> COMMENT:
>>> =
----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>=20
>>> Given that TCG and FIDO Alliance work are both mentioned, I wonder =
if
>>> it is worth explicitly saying that the WG will coordinate with them =
as
>> necessary.
>>=20
>> Makes sense.
>>=20
>> OLD:
>> The working group will cooperate and coordinate with other IETF WG =
such as
>> TEEP, SUIT and SACM as appropriate.  The WG will also evaluate prior =
work
>> such as NEA and proprietary attestation technologies.
>>=20
>> NEW:
>> The working group will cooperate and coordinate with other IETF WG =
such as
>> TEEP, SUIT and SACM; and work in the community such as TCG and FIDO
>> Alliance, as appropriate.  The WG will also evaluate prior work such =
as NEA
>> and proprietary attestation technologies.
>=20
> More refined language ...
>=20
> NEW:
> The working group will cooperate and coordinate with other IETF WGs =
such as TEEP, SUIT and SACM; work with organizations in the community, =
such as TCG, Android Keystore and FIDO Alliance, as appropriate.  The WG =
will also evaluate prior work such as NEA and proprietary attestation =
technologies.

=E2=80=9CAndroid Keystore=E2=80=9D is an implementation not an =
organization. Maybe this?

LL-NEW:
The working group will cooperate and coordinate with other IETF WGs such =
as TEEP, SUIT and SACM; work with organizations in the community, such =
as the TCG and the FIDO Alliance, as appropriate.  The WG will also =
evaluate prior work such as NEA and proprietary attestation technologies =
like the Android Keystore.

LL



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CC: Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, "rats-chairs@ietf.org" <rats-chairs@ietf.org>
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From nobody Thu Feb  7 12:25:59 2019
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Alissa Cooper's Block on charter-ietf-rats-00-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT)
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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain

Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in> wrote:
    > Given that the data to be exchanged for remote attestation purposes
    > could be security-sensitive or could be used to fingerprint a device or
    > identify a user, I think the charter needs to explicitly state what the
    > WG's goals are for taking the protection of this data into account.

There are two choices to protect this data:

1) transport encryption.  I thought that we had ruled transport out
of scope, but I guess it's still there as 4.
   "4. Standardize interoperable protocols to securely convey
   assertions/claims."
   I guess I'm thinking about SUIT.

2) object encryption.  This would be cryptographically better, but
   I think that this would fail for all the same reasons that email
   encryption is not ubiquitous.

(There are many other tradeoffs between each, but that's not for the charter)

Given that point (4) is there, what else could we say in the charter
about protecting the data?

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-




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From nobody Thu Feb  7 13:23:43 2019
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Alissa Cooper's Block on charter-ietf-rats-00-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT)
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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain


Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in> wrote:
    > Is there a particular reasoning for publishing these in the archival
    > series?

Good question.
I would like us to work on, and do a WG Consensus call on a use-case document.
I think that it could then be brought in as an appendix to another document,
or just left as an internet-draft.

But, I think we need to have a live, working use-case document in order
to be able to avoid the blind-people-and-elephant problem.

(And I'm already working on a candidate document)

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-

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From nobody Thu Feb  7 14:06:44 2019
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Encryption solves some privacy issues, but not for use cases where the =
recipient of the token is at issue for privacy. Also some recipients =
(relying parties) just don=E2=80=99t want privacy-violating data in the =
first place, often to meet regulatory requirements.=20

In that case the device can:
A) not send privacy-violating claims
B) some how make the data not privacy-violating, but this only works for =
some claims

The other issue is that per-device signing keys are inherently =
privacy-violating because the recipient / relying party has to have the =
public key to verify the signature.  A solution is cryptography like =
ECDAA. The main work here would be to define how to use EDAA with COSE. =
I think it ends up largely orthogonal to the claim definition data. =
ECDAA uses with COSE might have use outside of device attestation so it =
should probably a separate document.

LL


> On Feb 7, 2019, at 2:25 PM, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> =
wrote:
>=20
> Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in> wrote:
>> Given that the data to be exchanged for remote attestation purposes
>> could be security-sensitive or could be used to fingerprint a device =
or
>> identify a user, I think the charter needs to explicitly state what =
the
>> WG's goals are for taking the protection of this data into account.
>=20
> There are two choices to protect this data:
>=20
> 1) transport encryption.  I thought that we had ruled transport out
> of scope, but I guess it's still there as 4.
>   "4. Standardize interoperable protocols to securely convey
>   assertions/claims."
>   I guess I'm thinking about SUIT.
>=20
> 2) object encryption.  This would be cryptographically better, but
>   I think that this would fail for all the same reasons that email
>   encryption is not ubiquitous.
>=20
> (There are many other tradeoffs between each, but that's not for the =
charter)
>=20
> Given that point (4) is there, what else could we say in the charter
> about protecting the data?
>=20
> --
> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
> -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats


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From: Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org>
To: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Complete charter language Revision #2 in response to IESG feedback
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Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2019 02:35:39 +0000
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Subject: [Rats] Complete charter language Revision #2 in response to IESG feedback
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Hi!

This note pulls together the proposed modifications suggested by Nancy and =
Laurence all in one place.

Roman

[1] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/o4X-xJ2DMdmehHml5F7nL4W9EYE
[2] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/c3n_mMVVAQpoelWJuaPuQtlv8vY

=3D=3D[ snip]=3D=3D
Introduction
   =20
Relying parties require evidence about the trustworthiness of remote system=
 components [RFC4949] they interact with. Remote attestation procedures (RA=
TS) enable relying parties to establish a level of confidence in the trustw=
orthiness of remote system components by creating and processing attestatio=
n evidence. A relying party can then decide whether to consider a remote sy=
stem component trustworthy or not.
   =20
To improve the confidence in a system component's trustworthiness a relying=
 party may require evidence about:
* system component identity,
* composition of system components, including nested components,
* roots of trust,
* assertion/claim origination or provenance,
* manufacturing origin,
* system component integrity,
* system component configuration,
* operational state and measurements of steps which led to the operational =
state, or
* other factors that could influence trust decisions
   =20
While domain-specific attestation mechanisms such as Trusted Computing Grou=
p (TCG) Trusted Platform Module (TPM)/Trusted Software Stack (TSS), Fast Id=
entity Online (FIDO) Alliance attestation and Android Keystore attestation =
exist, there is no interoperable way to create and process attestation evid=
ence to make determinations about system components among relying parties o=
f different manufactures and origins.=20
   =20
 Goals
   =20
This WG will standardize formats for describing assertions/claims about sys=
tem components and associated evidence; and procedures and protocols to con=
vey these assertions/claims to relying parties.  Given the security and pri=
vacy sensitive nature of these assertions/claims, the WG will specify appro=
aches to protect this exchanged data.  While a relying party may use refere=
nce, known or expected values or thresholds to assess the assertions/claims=
, the procedures for this activity are out of scope for this WG.
   =20
The working group will cooperate and coordinate with other IETF WGs such as=
 TEEP, SUIT and SACM; work with organizations in the community, such as the=
 TCG and the FIDO Alliance, as appropriate.  The WG will also evaluate prio=
r work such as NEA and proprietary attestation technologies like the Androi=
d Keystore.
   =20
Program of Work
   =20
The working group will develop standards supporting interoperable remote at=
testation procedures for system components. The main deliverables are as fo=
llows:
   =20
1. Specify use cases for remote attestation.
   =20
2. Specify terminology and architecture that enable attestation techniques.=
  The architecture may include a system security model for the signing key =
material and involve at least the system component, system component provid=
er, and the relying authority.
   =20
3. Standardize an information model for assertions/claims which provide inf=
ormation about system components characteristics scoped by the specified us=
e-cases.
   =20
4. Standardize data models that implements and secures the defined informat=
ion model (e.g., CBOR Web Token structures [RFC8392], JSON Web Token struct=
ures [RFC7519]).
   =20
5. Standardize interoperable protocols to securely convey assertions/claims=
.


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Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2019 17:03:21 -0600
From: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
CC: Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in>, Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, "rats-chairs@ietf.org" <rats-chairs@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Alissa Cooper's Block on charter-ietf-rats-00-00: (with BLOCK and COMMENT)
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On Thu, Feb 07, 2019 at 04:23:32PM -0500, Michael Richardson wrote:
> 
> Alissa Cooper <alissa@cooperw.in> wrote:
>     > Is there a particular reasoning for publishing these in the archival
>     > series?
> 
> Good question.
> I would like us to work on, and do a WG Consensus call on a use-case document.
> I think that it could then be brought in as an appendix to another document,
> or just left as an internet-draft.
> 
> But, I think we need to have a live, working use-case document in order
> to be able to avoid the blind-people-and-elephant problem.

Of course!

The question comes up largely because there have been several recent cases
where a use-cases document is sent to the IESG and the IESG is
uncomfortable publishing the document in the RFC series, owing to an
unclear quantity of archival value.  (To date, they have all been
published.)  In some cases, the publication of the use-cases document has
been an explicit item in the charter, and I think the IESG is looking to
make a determination at charter time whether future use-cases documents are
expected to have archival value.

So this could be something like:

OLD:
1. Specify use cases for remote attestation.

NEW:
1. Specify use cases for remote attestation (to document and achieve WG
consensus but not expected to be published as an RFC).

I will put this in my local working copy, but of course it can change back
or change in other ways throughout the external review process.

> (And I'm already working on a candidate document)

Excellent!

Thanks,

Benjamin


From nobody Fri Feb 15 15:21:11 2019
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Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2019 17:21:00 -0600
From: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
To: Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Martin Vigoureux's No Objection on charter-ietf-rats-00-00: (with COMMENT)
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On Thu, Feb 07, 2019 at 12:35:45AM -0800, Martin Vigoureux wrote:
> Martin Vigoureux has entered the following ballot position for
> charter-ietf-rats-00-00: No Objection
> 
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
> 
> 
> 
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-rats/
> 
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Hello,
> 
> I mostly have questions for clarifications. Thank you.
> 
>    Relying parties require evidence about the trustworthiness of remote system
>    components [RFC4949] they interact with. Remote attestation procedures (RATS)
>    enable relying parties to establish a level of confidence in the
>    trustworthiness of remote system components by creating and processing
>    attestation evidence.
> I'm not a native English reader, but this sentence gives me the impression that
> the relying parties will create the attestation evidence.
> Is that the case? My limited understanding of the topic makes me think that the
> remote system will create the attestation and the relying parties will process
> it.

That is a keen observation and correct inference, thank you!
My current local copy has "Remote attestation procedures (RATS)
enable relying parties to establish a level of confidence in the
trustworthiness of remote system components through the creation of
attestation evidence by remote system components and a processing chain
towards the relying party." (further wordsmithing welcome).

>    While a relying party may use reference values to assess the
>    assertions/claims the procedures for this activity are out of scope for this
>    WG.
> I can understand why, but I would also see some value in having a document
> which would cover this.

The intent is that this is out of scope for the initial effort but it is
hoped that we can address this eventually.  So I think I should add
"(without rechartering)".

> About the "proprietary attestation technologies", are these publicly
> available/accessible? (similar to Ben's question)

I assume that they would need to have some level of public visibility in
order for the WG to be able to examine them.  I don't know if we need to
explicitly restate that "any technologies adopted by the WG need to be
consistent with the open standards process of BCP 9".

>    The architecture may include a system security model for the signing key
>    material and involve at least the system component, system component
>    provider, and the relying authority.
> Does that imply new work or is it just about reusing what may already exist?
> But I see Adam had a similar question.

My understanding is that the intent is to assume as a prerequisite that
there is key material available and a way for the relying party to verify
its provenance.  This need not be a PKI and could be a
manufacturer-brokered lookup, and I expect that the varied use cases will
end up requiring different stories for key material certification.  We can
talk a bit more in Adam's ballot thread, but I would characterize this as
"not intending to establish a new PKI".

Thanks for the good comments,

Benjamin


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Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2019 17:27:29 -0600
From: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
To: Alexey Melnikov <aamelnikov@fastmail.fm>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/b45mPIv33JAbvfPeZs4z57dO-pM>
Subject: Re: [Rats] Alexey Melnikov's Yes on charter-ietf-rats-00-00: (with COMMENT)
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On Wed, Feb 06, 2019 at 03:25:29AM -0800, Alexey Melnikov wrote:
> Alexey Melnikov has entered the following ballot position for
> charter-ietf-rats-00-00: Yes
> 
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
> 
> 
> 
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-rats/
> 
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> I don't have a strong feeling on whether or not the use cases document needs to
> be published, but I agree that the question should be considered.
> 
> >4. Standardize interoperable protocols to securely convey assertions/claims.
> 
> Is plural intended here?

I think so.  We're more likely than not to end up with at least two of
CBOR, JOSE, ASN.1, and XML containers (and have already had some lively
discussions thereof).

-Benjamin


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Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2019 17:41:44 -0600
From: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
To: Adam Roach <adam@nostrum.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/lJBuNyk0jEor05x240WwBFNpyW0>
Subject: Re: [Rats] Adam Roach's No Objection on charter-ietf-rats-00-00: (with COMMENT)
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On Tue, Feb 05, 2019 at 11:02:53PM -0800, Adam Roach wrote:
> Adam Roach has entered the following ballot position for
> charter-ietf-rats-00-00: No Objection
> 
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
> 
> 
> 
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-rats/
> 
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> The charter contents look generally good to me, although I have some
> copy-editing suggestions to make. I also agree with Ben that the charter needs
> to be clear about whether the referenced support documents are intended for
> publication as RFCs.
> 
> One substantive comment first:
> 
> > The architecture may include a system security model
> > for the signing key material and involve at least the system component, system
> > component provider, and the relying authority.
> 
> It's not clear to me whether this is intended to include/leverage an existing
> PKI, establish a new PKI, or use some other scheme to establish trusted roots.
> It seems that some of these options could end up being rather far ranging. I
> don't feel strongly about what the correct answer is, but I think we want the
> charter to make it clear whether such potentially broad tasks are in scope for
> the working group, or if the models to be considered should be more
> constrained.

As a mental model, think "device" for "system component" and "manufacturer"
for "system component provider" (the terms are as such to allow for more
complicated scenarios).  The whole scheme is going to be premised on the
manufacturer getting some cryptographic bits in the device and keeping a
handle on which bits go with which device.  The relying party needs to get
that information somehow, and be able to trust it.  But to a large extent
we don't actually care how that happens, and that flow is not what we're
focusing on in this initial charter.  So my take on this is that the
architecture could describe a couple ways of doing this, but as more of an
informative matter to help someone understand how to build a system using
RATS, and not as a prescriptive matter.  I don't really think that falls
under "establish a new PKI", and it could but does not have to involve an
existing PKI.  So I'm not really sure what text we could add to the charter
that would help bring the clarity you desire.

> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> The introduction of the charter is a bit jarring in the way that it jumps in
> without first giving an indication of the technology field being dealt with.
> Starting with an introductory sentence -- or even a clause -- indicating that
> the working group is dealing with component attribute attestation would help.

I tried to reduce the jar factor.

> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> > To improve the confidence in a system component's trustworthiness a relying
> > party may require evidence about:
> 
> Nit: "...trustworthiness, a relying..."
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> > While domain-specific attestation mechanisms such as Trusted Computing Group
> > (TCG) Trusted Platform Module (TPM)/Trusted Software Stack (TSS), Fast
> > Identity Online (FIDO) Alliance attestation and Android Keystore attestation
> 
> Consider an Oxford comma before "and Android".
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> > While a relying party may use
> > reference values to assess the assertions/claims the procedures for this
> > activity are out of scope for this WG.
> 
> Nit: "...claims, the procedures..."
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> > The working group will cooperate and coordinate with other IETF WG such as
> > TEEP, SUIT and SACM as appropriate.
> 
> Consider an Oxford comma before "and SACM".
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> > 3. Standardize data models that implements and secures the defined information
> 
> Nit: "...models that implement and secure..." or "...a data model that
> implements and secures..."

Thanks for these.

-Benjamin


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Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2019 17:54:01 -0600
From: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
To: Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>
CC: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, <rats@ietf.org>, <rats-chairs@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Ben Campbell's Yes on charter-ietf-rats-00-00: (with COMMENT)
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On Tue, Feb 05, 2019 at 08:13:30PM -0800, Ben Campbell wrote:
> Ben Campbell has entered the following ballot position for
> charter-ietf-rats-00-00: Yes
> 
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
> 
> 
> 
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-rats/
> 
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> I am balloting "yes", but have a few minor comments. These need not block
> external review, but might should be considered prior to approval:
> 
> - "The WG will also evaluate prior work such
> as NEA and proprietary attestation technologies."
> 
> Since I assume the group plans to create standards track specifications, there
> is a good chance any given "proprietary" technology will have restrictions that
> prevent its use. It might be worth adding a few words about any such
> proprietary standard being sufficiently open for IETF purposes.  (I'm
> specifically not thinking about patents so much as license restrictions on the
> specifications themselves.)

I think I covered this (and proposed text I don't want to use) in Martin's
ballot thread.

> (nit): I find the repeated use of "assertions/claims" a bit jarring. Are they
> assertions? Claims? Both?

They can be either, depending on what worldview's terminology you're using
(and, to some extent, what verification workflow as well).  I think this is
just going to have to wait for the terminology document.

> Please consider whether item 1 under "Program of work" needs to be published as
> RFCs or can be published via some alternative channel (e.g. Working Group wiki).

The thread that Roman forked from Alissa's ballot thread has made some
progress on this, splitting off the use cases into a separate item (which
currently I have marked as "not expected to be published as an RFC"; I
believe the implication is that the terminology and architecture are
intended to be so published.

-Benjamin


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Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2019 18:14:29 -0600
From: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
To: <rats@ietf.org>
CC: <rats-chairs@ietf.org>, <iesg@ietf.org>
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Subject: [Rats] new RATS charter in datatracker (charter-ietf-rats)
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Thanks to the IESG feedback and subsequent discussion, I've uploaded a new
version of the charter text to the datatracker at
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-rats/ .  Further feedback is
still welcome, and hopefully we can get to external review soon.  (The
"History" tab will produce a diff between the 00-00 and 00-02.)

==========================================================================
Introduction
==========

In network protocol exchanges, it is often the case that one entity (a relying
party) requires evidence about the remote peer (and system components [RFC4949]
thereof), in order to assess the trustworthiness of the peer.  Remote
attestation procedures (RATS) enable relying parties to establish a level of
confidence in the trustworthiness of remote system components through the
creation of attestation evidence by remote system components and a processing
chain towards the relying party.  A relying party can then decide whether to
consider a remote system component trustworthy or not.

To improve the confidence in a system component's trustworthiness, a relying
party may require evidence about:
* system component identity,
* composition of system components, including nested components,
* roots of trust,
* assertion/claim origination or provenance,
* manufacturing origin,
* system component integrity,
* system component configuration,
* operational state and measurements of steps which led to the operational state, or
* other factors that could influence trust decisions.

While domain-specific attestation mechanisms such as Trusted Computing Group
(TCG) Trusted Platform Module (TPM)/Trusted Software Stack (TSS), Fast Identity
Online (FIDO) Alliance attestation, and Android Keystore attestation exist,
there is no interoperable way to create and process attestation evidence to
make determinations about system components among relying parties of different
manufactures and origins. 

Goals
=====

This WG will standardize formats for describing assertions/claims about system
components and associated evidence; and procedures and protocols to convey
these assertions/claims to relying parties.  Given the security and privacy
sensitive nature of these assertions/claims, the WG will specify approaches to
protect this exchanged data.  While a relying party may use reference, known, or
expected values or thresholds to assess the assertions/claims, the procedures
for this activity are out of scope for this WG (without rechartering).

The working group will cooperate and coordinate with other IETF WGs such as
TEEP, SUIT, and SACM, and work with organizations in the community, such as the TCG
and the FIDO Alliance, as appropriate.  The WG will also evaluate prior work
such as NEA and proprietary attestation technologies like the Android Keystore.

Program of Work
==============

The working group will develop standards supporting interoperable remote
attestation procedures for system components. The main deliverables are as
follows:

1. Specify use cases for remote attestation (to document and achieve WG
consensus but not expected to be published as an RFC).

2. Specify terminology and architecture that enable attestation techniques.
The architecture may include a system security model for the signing key
material and involve at least the system component, system component provider,
and the relying authority.

3. Standardize an information model for assertions/claims which provide
information about system components characteristics scoped by the specified
use-cases.

4. Standardize data models that implement and secure the defined information
model (e.g., CBOR Web Token structures [RFC8392], JSON Web Token structures
[RFC7519]).

5. Standardize interoperable protocols to securely convey assertions/claims.
==========================================================================

-Benjamin


From nobody Mon Feb 18 08:52:59 2019
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From: Ira McDonald <blueroofmusic@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2019 11:52:41 -0500
Message-ID: <CAN40gSu+r_N=nwcMpYAVLYHMAg7KvDcpEhjs1PSumKtuecUGgg@mail.gmail.com>
To: rats@ietf.org, Ira McDonald <blueroofmusic@gmail.com>
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Subject: [Rats] FYI: W3C Verifiable Credentials Data Model 1.0 draft
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--000000000000b7479805822df4d9
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Hi,

W3C Verifiable Claims WG considers this draft close to ready for
publication as a W3C Candidate Standard:

https://www.w3.org/TR/2019/WD-verifiable-claims-data-model-20190208/

Cheers,
- Ira

Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)
Co-Chair - TCG Trusted Mobility Solutions WG
Co-Chair - TCG Metadata Access Protocol SG
Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG
Secretary - IEEE-ISTO Printer Working Group
Co-Chair - IEEE-ISTO PWG Internet Printing Protocol WG
IETF Designated Expert - IPP & Printer MIB
Blue Roof Music / High North Inc
http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic
http://sites.google.com/site/highnorthinc
mailto: blueroofmusic@gmail.com
PO Box 221  Grand Marais, MI 49839  906-494-2434

--000000000000b7479805822df4d9
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi,</div><div><br></div><div>W3C Ver=
ifiable Claims WG considers this draft close to ready for</div><div>publica=
tion as a W3C Candidate Standard:</div><div><br></div><div><a href=3D"https=
://www.w3.org/TR/2019/WD-verifiable-claims-data-model-20190208/">https://ww=
w.w3.org/TR/2019/WD-verifiable-claims-data-model-20190208/</a></div><div><b=
r></div><div>Cheers,</div><div>- Ira</div><div><br></div><div><div><div dir=
=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">Ira McDonald (Musician / Softwar=
e Architect)<br>Co-Chair - TCG Trusted Mobility Solutions WG</div><div>Co-C=
hair - TCG Metadata Access Protocol SG<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">Chair - Li=
nux Foundation Open Printing WG<br>Secretary - IEEE-ISTO Printer Working Gr=
oup<br>Co-Chair - IEEE-ISTO PWG Internet Printing Protocol WG<br>IETF Desig=
nated Expert - IPP &amp; Printer MIB<br>Blue Roof Music / High North Inc<br=
><a style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,255)" href=3D"http://sites.google.com/site/blu=
eroofmusic" target=3D"_blank">http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic</a=
><br><a style=3D"color:rgb(102,0,204)" href=3D"http://sites.google.com/site=
/highnorthinc" target=3D"_blank">http://sites.google.com/site/highnorthinc<=
/a><br>mailto: <a href=3D"mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank"=
>blueroofmusic@gmail.com</a><br>PO Box 221=C2=A0 Grand Marais, MI 49839=C2=
=A0 906-494-2434<br><br><div style=3D"display:inline"></div><div style=3D"d=
isplay:inline"></div><div style=3D"display:inline"></div><div></div><div></=
div><div></div><div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><=
/div></div></div></div>

--000000000000b7479805822df4d9--


From nobody Mon Feb 18 14:32:57 2019
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Subject: [Rats] Alissa Cooper's No Objection on charter-ietf-rats-00-02: (with COMMENT)
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Alissa Cooper has entered the following ballot position for
charter-ietf-rats-00-02: No Objection

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)



The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-rats/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for addressing my concerns.



From nobody Mon Feb 18 20:49:15 2019
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Subject: [Rats] WG Review: Remote ATtestation ProcedureS (rats)
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A new IETF WG has been proposed in the Security Area. The IESG has not made
any determination yet. The following draft charter was submitted, and is
provided for informational purposes only. Please send your comments to the
IESG mailing list (iesg@ietf.org) by 2019-02-28.

Remote ATtestation ProcedureS (rats)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Current status: BOF WG

Chairs:
  Nancy Cam-Winget <ncamwing@cisco.com>
  Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org>

Assigned Area Director:
  Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>

Security Area Directors:
  Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>
  Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>

Mailing list:
  Address: rats@ietf.org
  To subscribe: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
  Archive: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/rats/

Group page: https://datatracker.ietf.org/group/rats/

Charter: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-rats/

Introduction
==========

In network protocol exchanges, it is often the case that one entity (a relying
party) requires evidence about the remote peer (and system components
[RFC4949] thereof), in order to assess the trustworthiness of the peer. 
Remote attestation procedures (RATS) enable relying parties to establish a
level of confidence in the trustworthiness of remote system components
through the creation of attestation evidence by remote system components and
a processing chain towards the relying party.  A relying party can then
decide whether to consider a remote system component trustworthy or not.

To improve the confidence in a system component's trustworthiness, a relying
party may require evidence about:
* system component identity,
* composition of system components, including nested components,
* roots of trust,
* assertion/claim origination or provenance,
* manufacturing origin,
* system component integrity,
* system component configuration,
* operational state and measurements of steps which led to the operational
state, or * other factors that could influence trust decisions.

While domain-specific attestation mechanisms such as Trusted Computing Group
(TCG) Trusted Platform Module (TPM)/Trusted Software Stack (TSS), Fast
Identity Online (FIDO) Alliance attestation, and Android Keystore attestation
exist, there is no interoperable way to create and process attestation
evidence to make determinations about system components among relying parties
of different manufactures and origins.

Goals
=====

This WG will standardize formats for describing assertions/claims about system
components and associated evidence; and procedures and protocols to convey
these assertions/claims to relying parties.  Given the security and privacy
sensitive nature of these assertions/claims, the WG will specify approaches to
protect this exchanged data.  While a relying party may use reference, known,
or expected values or thresholds to assess the assertions/claims, the
procedures for this activity are out of scope for this WG (without
rechartering).

The working group will cooperate and coordinate with other IETF WGs such as
TEEP, SUIT, and SACM, and work with organizations in the community, such as
the TCG and the FIDO Alliance, as appropriate.  The WG will also evaluate
prior work such as NEA and proprietary attestation technologies like the
Android Keystore.

Program of Work
==============

The working group will develop standards supporting interoperable remote
attestation procedures for system components. The main deliverables are as
follows:

1. Specify use cases for remote attestation (to document and achieve WG
consensus but not expected to be published as an RFC).

2. Specify terminology and architecture that enable attestation techniques.
The architecture may include a system security model for the signing key
material and involve at least the system component, system component provider,
and the relying authority.

3. Standardize an information model for assertions/claims which provide
information about system components characteristics scoped by the specified
use-cases.

4. Standardize data models that implement and secure the defined information
model (e.g., CBOR Web Token structures [RFC8392], JSON Web Token structures
[RFC7519]).

5. Standardize interoperable protocols to securely convey assertions/claims.

Milestones:

TBD


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From: Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org>
To: Alexey Melnikov <aamelnikov@fastmail.fm>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
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From: Roman Danyliw <rdd@cert.org>
To: Martin Vigoureux <martin.vigoureux@nokia.com>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
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From nobody Tue Feb 19 10:58:49 2019
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Subject: [Rats] rats - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 104
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A new meeting session request has just been submitted by Liz Flynn, on behalf of the rats working group.


---------------------------------------------------------
Working Group Name: Remote ATtestation ProcedureS
Area Name: Security Area
Session Requester: Liz Flynn

Number of Sessions: 1
Length of Session(s):  2 Hours
Number of Attendees: 100
Conflicts to Avoid: 





People who must be present:
  Nancy Cam-Winget
  Roman Danyliw
  Benjamin Kaduk

Resources Requested:

Special Requests:
  Avoid SEC area conflicts.
---------------------------------------------------------


From nobody Tue Feb 19 11:09:56 2019
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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain


Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> wrote:
    > Thanks to the IESG feedback and subsequent discussion, I've uploaded a new
    > version of the charter text to the datatracker at
    > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-rats/ .  Further feedback is
    > still welcome, and hopefully we can get to external review soon.  (The
    > "History" tab will produce a diff between the 00-00 and 00-02.)

It reads pretty nicely.
Thank you.

    > 1. Specify use cases for remote attestation (to document and achieve WG
    > consensus but not expected to be published as an RFC).

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-

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--_004_6CE55C2C15B84C98874BD27904B6974Btelefonicacom_--


From nobody Fri Feb 22 21:01:59 2019
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From: Carsten Bormann <cabo@tzi.org>
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Subject: [Rats] Constrained Node/Network Cluster @ IETF104: DRAFT AGENDA
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Here is my usual eclectic condensed agenda based on the DRAFT AGENDA
for IETF104.  Remember that there is still quite some potential for
changes.

cose/teep and lpwan/t2trg are some annoying conflicts that meet the eye.
I also don't like that I'll have to miss the cacao BOF (vs. core),
dinrg/suit, coinrg/git.

All times are CET (Central European Time) =3D=3D UTC +1 hours.  Note =
that
there is no daylight saving time in effect at the time in Europe (this
starts on the Sunday *after* IETF).  (You can get pure UTC times on
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/agenda-utc, for those who want to
listen from remote.)

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten

SATURDAY/SUNDAY, March 23/24. 2019
-- Hackathon (including various interops) (Grand Hilton Ballroom)
-- Sun 1700-1900  Welcome Reception - Congress Hall 1/2
-- Sun 1800-2000  Hot RFC Lightning Talks - Congress Hall 3

MONDAY, March 25, 2019

0900-1100  Morning Session I
Congress H 3	ART	dispatch	Dispatch WG - Joint with ARTAREA
Congress H 2	INT	6man	IPv6 Maintenance WG
Congress H 1	IRTF	pearg	Privacy Enhancements and Assessments =
Proposed Research Group
Karlin 3	RTG	bier	Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG

1120-1220  Morning Session II
Congress H 1	INT ***	6tisch	IPv6 over the TSCH mode of IEEE =
802.15.4e WG
Congress H 2	SEC	tls	Transport Layer Security WG
Karlin 1/2	TSV	rmcat	RTP Media Congestion Avoidance =
Techniques WG

1350-1550  Afternoon Session I
Karlin 1/2	INT ***	6lo	IPv6 over Networks of =
Resource-constrained Nodes WG
Congress H 2	IRTF	irtfopen	IRTF Open Meeting
Congress H 3	SEC	secdispatch	Security Dispatch WG

1610-1810  Afternoon Session II
Congress H 2	ART	httpbis	Hypertext Transfer Protocol WG
Congress H 3	IAB	smart	Stopping Malware and Researching Threats
Karlin 1/2	INT	dnssd	Extensions for Scalable DNS Service =
Discovery WG
Berlin/Brussels	IRTF	qirg	Quantum Internet Proposed Research Group
Karlin 3	RTG ***	roll	Routing Over Low power and Lossy =
networks WG
Athens/Barcel.	SEC	oauth	Web Authorization Protocol WG
Congress H 1	TSV	tsvwg	Transport Area Working Group WG

TUESDAY, March 26, 2019

0900-1100  Morning Session I
Karlin 3	ART	uta	Using TLS in Applications WG - 1000 - =
1100
Karlin 1/2	INT	homenet	Home Networking WG
Congress H 3	RTG	rtgarea	Routing Area Open Meeting
Berlin/Brussels	SEC ***	cose	CBOR Object Signing and Encryption WG
Grand Hilton BR	SEC ***	teep	Trusted Execution Environment =
Provisioning WG
Congress H 2	TSV	quic	QUIC WG

1120-1220  Morning Session II
Berlin/Brussels	INT ***	lwig	Light-Weight Implementation Guidance WG
Congress H 1	IRTF	qirg	Quantum Internet Proposed Research Group
Athens/Barcel.	RTG	bier	Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG
Congress H 3	TSV	tsvwg	Transport Area Working Group WG

1350-1550  Afternoon Session I
Berlin/Brussels	ART ***	core	Constrained RESTful Environments WG
Congress H 3	OPS	anima	Autonomic Networking Integrated Model =
and Approach WG
Congress H 2	SEC	mls	Messaging Layer Security WG
Grand Hilton BR	TSV	tsvarea	Transport Area Open Meeting

1610-1810  Afternoon Session II
Congress H 1	INT ***	lpwan	IPv6 over Low Power Wide-Area Networks =
WG
Congress H 3	IRTF***	t2trg	Thing-to-Thing
Congress H 2	SEC	tls	Transport Layer Security WG

WEDNESDAY, March 27, 2019

0900-1100  Morning Session I
Karlin 1/2	IRTF***	dinrg	Decentralized Internet Infrastructure
Congress H 3	RTG	detnet	Deterministic Networking WG
Berlin/Brussels	RTG	rift	Routing In Fat Trees WG
Grand Hilton BR	SEC ***	suit	Software Updates for Internet of Things =
WG
Congress H 2	TSV	quic	QUIC WG

1120-1320  Morning Session II
Grand Hilton BR	IRTF	cfrg	Crypto Forum  - 12:20 - 13:20
Grand Hilton BR	SEC	acme	Automated Certificate Management =
Environment WG - 11:20 - 12:20

1500-1700  Afternoon Session I
Grand Hilton BR	OPS	wgtlgo	Technology Deep Dive - Modern Router =
Architecture BOF

THURSDAY, March 28, 2019

0900-1030  Morning Session I
Karlin 3	ART ***	cbor	Concise Binary Object Representation =
Maintenance and Extensions WG
Congress H 3	IRTF	panrg	Path Aware Networking RG
Athens/Barcel.	RTG	babel	Babel routing protocol WG
Congress H 1	SEC	mls	Messaging Layer Security WG
Berlin/Brussels	SEC	oauth	Web Authorization Protocol WG

1050-1220  Morning Session II
Congress H 3	GEN	git	GitHub Integration and Tooling WG
Congress H 1	IRTF	coinrg	Computing in the Network
Congress H 2	IRTF	maprg	Measurement and Analysis for Protocols

1350-1550  Afternoon Session I
Congress H 1	INT	intarea	Internet Area Working Group WG
Grand Hilton BR	SEC ***	rats	Remote ATtestation ProcedureS BOF

1610-1810  Afternoon Session II
Grand Hilton BR	ART	httpbis	Hypertext Transfer Protocol WG
Karlin 1/2	INT ***	paw	Predictable and Available Wireless BOF
Berlin/Brussels	OPS	v6ops	IPv6 Operations WG
Congress H 2	SEC	saag	Security Area Open Meeting

FRIDAY, March 29, 2019

0900-1030  Morning Session I
Congress H 3	ART ***	core	Constrained RESTful Environments WG
Grand Hilton BR	INT	6man	IPv6 Maintenance WG
Berlin/Brussels	SEC	cacao	Collaborative Automated Course of Action =
Operations for Cyber Security BOF

1050-1250  Morning Session II
Athens/Barcel.	INT	ipwave	IP Wireless Access in Vehicular =
Environments WG
Congress H 1	IRTF	icnrg	Information-Centric Networking
Grand Hilton BR	SEC ***	ace	Authentication and Authorization for =
Constrained Environments WG
Karlin 1/2	TSV	taps	Transport Services WG


From nobody Thu Feb 28 16:02:11 2019
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From: Spencer Dawkins <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
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Subject: [Rats] Spencer Dawkins' No Objection on charter-ietf-rats-00-02: (with COMMENT)
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Spencer Dawkins has entered the following ballot position for
charter-ietf-rats-00-02: No Objection

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)



The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-rats/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I'd be a Yes if there was a SEC AD yes. Thanks for starting this.



From nobody Thu Feb 28 18:34:38 2019
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Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2019 20:34:19 -0600
From: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
To: Spencer Dawkins <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/TXNngFqXA5fcSWnssxYV_ClptjQ>
Subject: Re: [Rats] Spencer Dawkins' No Objection on charter-ietf-rats-00-02: (with COMMENT)
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On Thu, Feb 28, 2019 at 04:01:42PM -0800, Spencer Dawkins wrote:
> Spencer Dawkins has entered the following ballot position for
> charter-ietf-rats-00-02: No Objection
> 
> When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> introductory paragraph, however.)
> 
> 
> 
> The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/charter-ietf-rats/
> 
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> COMMENT:
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> I'd be a Yes if there was a SEC AD yes. Thanks for starting this.

Sigh, there is one now.

"But this one is not my fault -- the secretariat created the ballot, not
me"  I think.  Maybe.

-Benjamin

