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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
To: Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com>, Carl Wallace <carl@redhoundsoftware.com>, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] More use cases for draft-richardson-rats-usecases-00
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Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 17:27:19 +0000
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References: <MW2PR00MB03963ABEB87211AD28A16240A6490@MW2PR00MB0396.namprd00.prod.outlook.com> <12503.1552447661@localhost> <58E37DB5-098C-4387-9A52-4AECD0F69F25@island-resort.com> <6495.1553219901@dooku.sandelman.ca> <BA6E28A7-0F6A-46A8-AB1B-A64B9229F149@intel.com> <507.1553725386@dooku.sandelman.ca> <24C0968B-32B0-4EF1-99C8-61D3F0955BA1@intel.com> <793F9A34-050F-4914-AF4B-08C072730A06@island-resort.com> <D8C23800.D851F%carl@redhoundsoftware.com> <19652.1553943890@dooku.sandelman.ca> <D8C50A67.D8999%carl@redhoundsoftware.com> <79ccb2d7-09a3-913d-f47d-1e702a23b341@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] More use cases for draft-richardson-rats-usecases-00
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To: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, Carl Wallace <carl@redhoundsoftware.com>, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
Cc: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
References: <MW2PR00MB03963ABEB87211AD28A16240A6490@MW2PR00MB0396.namprd00.prod.outlook.com> <12503.1552447661@localhost> <58E37DB5-098C-4387-9A52-4AECD0F69F25@island-resort.com> <6495.1553219901@dooku.sandelman.ca> <BA6E28A7-0F6A-46A8-AB1B-A64B9229F149@intel.com> <507.1553725386@dooku.sandelman.ca> <24C0968B-32B0-4EF1-99C8-61D3F0955BA1@intel.com> <793F9A34-050F-4914-AF4B-08C072730A06@island-resort.com> <D8C23800.D851F%carl@redhoundsoftware.com> <19652.1553943890@dooku.sandelman.ca> <D8C50A67.D8999%carl@redhoundsoftware.com> <79ccb2d7-09a3-913d-f47d-1e702a23b341@gmail.com> <7B05ABC3-FE60-4879-9DEE-B896DD15507D@intel.com>
From: Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com>
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Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2019 06:37:00 +0200
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Subject: Re: [Rats] More use cases for draft-richardson-rats-usecases-00
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Hi Ned et al,
I have briefly looked into the referenced documents and my conclusion is that "session-based attestation" probably lacks a clear definition.

What I meant with session-based attestation was that an attestation challenge-response sequence would in addition to exchange of trust information also create a session (in both ends) and associated session-key (typically using a DH scheme) which is subsequently used for executing MAC-protected API calls and finishing with a "commit" call.

For smart card provisioning a device-unique "masterkey" is sometimes used to achieve similar functionality but the trust establishment is implicit [1].

I'm currently not aware of any other system than SKS/KeyGen2 [2] supporting (this definition of) session-based attestation.  The protected API concept was loosely derived from TPM's authorization scheme.

Anders

1] https://naeemgik.blogspot.com/2017/12/globalplatform-secure-channel-protocol.html
2] https://github.com/ietf-teep/architecture/issues/52

On 2019-04-02 19:27, Smith, Ned wrote:
> Anders refers to session-based attestation in the TEEP archive which points to several sources including a TCG source. This may be referring to a public specification known as DICE - Device Identifier Composition Engine.  https://trustedcomputinggroup.org/wp-content/uploads/Hardware-Requirements-for-Device-Identifier-Composition-Engine-r78_For-Publication.pdf
> 
> TCG terminology for TEEP's "Static" attestation is "Explicit Attestation" and TEEP's term "Session Based" attestation is "Implicit Attestation" by TCG.
> 
> I.e.
> (i) TCG.Implicit-Attestation ~= IETF.TEEP.Session-Based-Attestation
> (ii) TCG.Explicit-Attestation ~= IETF.TEEP.Static-Attestation
> 
> The EAT draft defines an attestation approach that seems close to (i) if you ignore the nonce that is returned as a static claim / assertion and if you rule out of scope the definition of how the signing key is created / persisted.
> 
> The tokbind draft seems closely resemble (ii).
> The TUDA draft seems to resemble (i). (Henk can correct me).
> The yang draft seems to resemble (ii). (Henk can correct me).
> 
> -Ned
> 
> ﻿On 3/31/19, 12:01 AM, "RATS on behalf of Anders Rundgren" <rats-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>      On 2019-03-30 17:03, Carl Wallace wrote:
>      > Makes sense to me to capture current artifacts. Maybe in an appendix to
>      > the use cases draft.
>      
>      For completeness you should consider mentioning that there are two quite different platform attestation concepts:
>      - Static: FIDO, Android, and current TEEP architecture
>      - Session based: Used by some smart card schemes and SKS/KeyGen2 (https://github.com/ietf-teep/architecture/issues/52)
>      
>      >
>      > On 3/30/19, 7:04 AM, "Michael Richardson" <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:
>      >
>      >>
>      >> Carl Wallace <carl@redhoundsoftware.com> wrote:
>      >>     > Example attestations from Android devices, Yubikey devices and
>      >> Surface
>      >>     > Pro virtual smart cards can be found here:
>      >>     > https://github.com/Purebred/SampleAttestations. These are
>      >> accompanied
>      >>     > by SCEP requests that include the attestations and the resulting
>      >>     > certificates. The attestations were generated and used as part of
>      >>     > issuing device and end user certificates where the public key was
>      >> the
>      >>     > focus of the attestation. The Android and Yubikey attestations take
>      >> the
>      >>     > form of X.509 certificates (packaged as certs-only SignedData). The
>      >>     > Surface Pro attestations take the form of CMC requests.
>      >>
>      >> I think that seeing the examples is very useful to extract common pieces.
>      >> Do you think it's useful to include some in the use case document?
>      >>
>      >> --
>      >> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
>      >> -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>
>      >
>      >
>      > _______________________________________________
>      > RATS mailing list
>      > RATS@ietf.org
>      > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>      >
>      
>      _______________________________________________
>      RATS mailing list
>      RATS@ietf.org
>      https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>      
> 


From nobody Wed Apr  3 05:29:46 2019
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From: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
To: anima@ietf.org, Russ Housley <housley@vigilsec.com>
cc: rats@ietf.org
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Subject: [Rats] BRSKI -- examples of IDevID with HardwareModuleName
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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain


BRSKI provides a algorithm to determine which attribute will be the
serial-number of the pledge, text attached below.

I am looking for examples of an IDevID that has:
1) a HardwareModuleName rather than a subject DN serialNumber.
2) a HardwareModuleName *as well* as a subject DN serialNumber.

I can probably create them, but I would rather use something produced
by a genuine TPM.

(Alternatively, maybe someone can recommend a USB interfaced TPM module that
would let me completely own what it does)

I'd like to include the result in an appendix, as well as use it as test
cases in my code.


2.3.1.  Identification of the Pledge

   In the context of BRSKI, pledges are uniquely identified by a
   "serial-number".  This serial-number is used both in the "serial-
   number" field of voucher or voucher-requests (see Section 3) and in
   local policies on registrar or MASA (see Section 5).

   The following fields are defined in [IDevID] and [RFC5280]:

   o  The subject field's DN encoding MUST include the "serialNumber"
      attribute with the device's unique serial number.  (from [IDevID]
      section 7.2.8, and [RFC5280] section 4.1.2.4's list of
      standard attributes)

   o  The subject-alt field's encoding MAY include a non-critical
      version of the RFC4108 defined HardwareModuleName.  (from [IDevID]
      section 7.2.9) If the IDevID is stored in a Trusted Platform
      Module (TPM), then this field MAY contain the TPM identification
      rather than the device's serial number.  If both fields are
      present, then the subject field takes precedence.

   and they are used as follows by the pledge to build the "serial-
   number" that is placed in the voucher-request.  In order to build it,
   the fields need to be converted into a serial-number of "type
   string".  The following methods are used depending on the first
   available IDevID certificate field (attempted in this order):


--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-




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FWIW: I submitted a minor update to the draft. In version -00 we made a mis=
take by indicating that the Signer ID is mandatory.

Ciao
Hannes

IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid=
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From nobody Thu Apr 18 08:09:22 2019
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Subject: [Rats] Attestation information model in CDDL
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Hi folks,

This is to check in as to whether it makes sense to describe the =
information model for attestation claims (or whatever we end up calling =
them) in CDDL. This seems like a good idea since it can describe both =
CBOR and JSON and it is new, shiny and modern.

There=E2=80=99s a few gaps that will need to be bridged:

- We definitely want binary strings for lots of the claims (many are =
hashes) in CBOR, but JSON can=E2=80=99t directly carry binary. =
Presumably we decide that they will be Base64 or Base64URL encoded in =
JSON.

- I can see wanting to use NaN and Infinity for some floating point =
numbers. They could be very convenient. CBOR can carry them, JSON =
can=E2=80=99t, so maybe this is handled on a claim-by-claim basis.

Any other gaps?

Does this make sense?=20

Thanks!

LL




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To: Thomas Fossati <Thomas.Fossati@arm.com>, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
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From: Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com>
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Subject: [Rats] Android attestations: Re: draft-richardson-rats-usecases-00 comments
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Here you have another link:
https://developer.android.com/training/articles/security-key-attestation

As an application developer I find this scheme and the associated "AndroidKeyStore" quite impractical.
The recent addition of "StrongBox" makes it worse.

With a two-level TEE/SE session-key based scheme you only need to attest the session permitting you to perform any number of secure operations and close the session with a "commit" which in turn responds with a (session signed) message to the SP that everything went right.

Anders

On 2019-04-18 15:06, Thomas Fossati wrote:
> Hi Michael,
> 
> ﻿On 27/03/2019, 18:25, "RATS on behalf of Michael Richardson" <rats-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:
>> (Still looking for some pointers to *attestion* parts of the Android KeyStore.)
> 
> Maybe you want to take a look at [1]
> 
> Cheers, t
> 
> [1] https://arxiv.org/pdf/1904.05572.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
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From: Giridhar Mandyam <mandyam@qti.qualcomm.com>
To: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
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From nobody Tue Apr 23 15:51:10 2019
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Cc: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
To: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] UEID questions
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Hi Ned,


> On Apr 23, 2019, at 10:37 AM, Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com> wrote:
>=20
> The type-1 EUID in draft-manyam-rats-eat-00 lists GUID as consisting =
of 128 =E2=80=93 256 bits of random number. RFC4122 =
(https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4122 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4122>) says a UUID is 128-bits with 6 =
bits of variant/version info. Also the word random can mean different =
things. (i) selected at random (ii) entropic. RFC4122 doesn=E2=80=99t =
require entropic UUID values. Does the type-1 EUID intend to be RFC4122 =
compliant? If not does it make sense to include a variant that is =
RFC4122 compliant?

EUID is certainly not UUID. While UUID is what exists, I think it is =
overly-complex and confusing with its various types and use cases. I =
want to very purposely avoid it.

The if a random number, the GUID version of EUID must be a cryptographic =
quality. That is an omission in the draft that should be fixed.

> =20
> Also, the draft indicates the verifier should regard EUID (variants) =
as opaque. Hence, the way they=E2=80=99re constructed is mostly =
irrelevant IMO except for the length. The list of EUIDs seems to be =
selected based on popularity / common use, but there are cases where =
vendors require larger or smaller values based on a variety of =
implementation considerations. It might be helpful to have a type for a =
variable length EUID (as they are already defined to be variable =
length).

I=E2=80=99m not sure what considerations would lead to different =
lengths. 33 or 17 bytes is not very large and there is no good reason to =
go larger.

128 bits (16 bytes) is enough for one trillion humans to each have one =
trillion devices and the probability of collision less than a trillion =
(log base 10 of 2^ 128 =3D 38; log base 10 of a trillion is 12; 3 * 12 < =
38) So 128 bits seems like enough, but take it out to 256 bits because =
SHA-256 is popular and good and there is some extra margin. I see no =
point in allowing anything longer than 33-bytes.

I don=E2=80=99t think it is good to go smaller because of the =
probability of collision starts to get low.

> =20
> Another approach could be to define the existing types in terms of a =
starting value (e.g. starts with EUI-48) but allows additional bits to =
be appended.  Could be represented as variable size structures or fixed =
size with padding (e.g. EUI-48-64 where first 48 bits is EU-48 and =
remaining 12 bits is vendor supplied and may include padding bits.)


Almost any identifier can be turned into a GUID by running it through =
SHA-256. SHA-256 is about 1KB of object code and less than 200 bytes of =
context. Probably every device / OS / platform supports SHA-256 and it =
is easy to use. The draft does say that the GUID can be constructed this =
way. This seems like enough flexibility to accommodate schemes that =
don=E2=80=99t have an official type.

The only types included in the draft are well managed truly universal =
identifiers. We wouldn=E2=80=99t want anything else.

I think it is good to keep the number of types as small as possible so =
there should be good justification and vetting for all types allowed.


> =20
> A side-bar on encoding. If the information model describes these =
semantics, then some of the guidance in the current draft could be =
better focused on the relevant data model bindings. For example, a CBOR =
binding for EUID would not require a base-64 encoding requirement.

Yes, agreed.

LL



--Apple-Mail=_2CA563CF-5045-4D46-BA53-F15D96FBBD97
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Hi =
Ned,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Apr 23, 2019, at 10:37 AM, Smith, Ned =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com" =
class=3D"">ned.smith@intel.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D"">

<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D"">
<meta name=3D"Generator" content=3D"Microsoft Word 15 (filtered medium)" =
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<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"WordSection1"><div class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt" class=3D"">The type-1 EUID in =
draft-manyam-rats-eat-00 lists GUID as consisting of 128 =E2=80=93 256 =
bits of random number. RFC4122 (<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4122" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4122</a>) says
 a UUID is 128-bits with 6 bits of variant/version info. Also the word =
random can mean different things. (i) selected at random (ii) entropic. =
RFC4122 doesn=E2=80=99t require entropic UUID values. Does the type-1 =
EUID intend to be RFC4122 compliant? If not does it
 make sense to include a variant that is RFC4122 compliant? =
</span></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div=
 class=3D"">EUID is certainly not UUID. While UUID is what exists, I =
think it is overly-complex and confusing with its various types and use =
cases. I want to very purposely avoid it.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The if a random number, the GUID =
version of EUID must be a cryptographic quality. That is an omission in =
the draft that should be fixed.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div=
 lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1"><div class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt" class=3D"">Also, the draft indicates the =
verifier should regard EUID (variants) as opaque. Hence, the way =
they=E2=80=99re constructed is mostly irrelevant IMO except for the =
length. The list of EUIDs seems to be selected based
 on popularity / common use, but there are cases where vendors require =
larger or smaller values based on a variety of implementation =
considerations. It might be helpful to have a type for a variable length =
EUID (as they are already defined to be variable length).
</span></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>I=E2=80=99m not sure what considerations would =
lead to different lengths. 33 or 17 bytes is not very large and there is =
no good reason to go larger.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>128 =
bits (16 bytes) is enough for one trillion humans to each have one =
trillion devices and the probability of collision less than a trillion =
(log base 10 of 2^ 128 =3D 38; log base 10 of a trillion is 12; 3 * 12 =
&lt; 38) So 128 bits seems like enough, but take it out to 256 bits =
because SHA-256 is popular and good and there is some extra margin. I =
see no point in allowing anything longer than 33-bytes.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>I don=E2=80=99t think it is good to go smaller =
because of the probability of collision starts to get low.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div=
 lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1"><div class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt" class=3D"">Another approach could be to =
define the existing types in terms of a starting value (e.g. starts with =
EUI-48) but allows additional bits to be appended. &nbsp;Could be =
represented as variable size structures or
 fixed size with padding (e.g. EUI-48-64 where first 48 bits is EU-48 =
and remaining 12 bits is vendor supplied and may include padding =
bits.)</span></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Almost any =
identifier can be turned into a GUID by running it through SHA-256. =
SHA-256 is about 1KB of object code and less than 200 bytes of context. =
Probably every device / OS / platform supports SHA-256 and it is easy to =
use. The draft does say that the GUID can be constructed this way. This =
seems like enough flexibility to accommodate schemes that don=E2=80=99t =
have an official type.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">The only types included in the draft are well managed truly =
universal identifiers. We wouldn=E2=80=99t want anything else.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">I think =
it is good to keep the number of types as small as possible so there =
should be good justification and vetting for all types =
allowed.</div></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1"><div class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-size:11.0pt" class=3D"">A side-bar on encoding. If the =
information model describes these semantics, then some of the guidance =
in the current draft could be better focused on the relevant data model =
bindings. For example, a CBOR binding
 for EUID would not require a base-64 encoding =
requirement.</span></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div>Yes, agreed.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>LL</div><div><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_2CA563CF-5045-4D46-BA53-F15D96FBBD97--


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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Rats] UEID questions
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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
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From nobody Thu Apr 25 06:25:13 2019
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Comments: In-reply-to "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com> message dated "Wed, 24 Apr 2019 18:26:40 -0000."
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Subject: Re: [Rats] RATS interim meeting prior to IETF 105
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Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com> wrote:
    > We=E2=80=99re planning to hold an interim RATS WG meeting preceding t=
he IETF
    > 105 face to face.

    > Several dates have been identified that work for the chairs. Please
    > vote for the days that work for you using the link

    > https://doodle.com/poll/ntmvnqe5qpubtama

You included dates, but not times or time zones.


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From: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
To: Michael Richardson <mcr@sandelman.ca>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Rats] RATS interim meeting prior to IETF 105
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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
To: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
CC: Michael Richardson <mcr@sandelman.ca>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] RATS interim meeting prior to IETF 105
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Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 15:12:08 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Rats] RATS interim meeting prior to IETF 105
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I was thinking of eliminating travel days then following up with finer gran=
ularity poll.

Can go either way whichever the group prefers.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 25, 2019, at 6:54 AM, Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com=
> wrote:
>=20
> I was about to make the same remark.
>=20
> Also, it would be interesting to see what dates/times everyone else prefe=
rs. I believe you configured the Doodle poll to hide this information.
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Michael Richardson
> Sent: Donnerstag, 25. April 2019 15:25
> To: Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com>
> Cc: rats@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Rats] RATS interim meeting prior to IETF 105
>=20
>=20
> Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com> wrote:
>> We=92re planning to hold an interim RATS WG meeting preceding the IETF
>> 105 face to face.
>=20
>> Several dates have been identified that work for the chairs. Please
>> vote for the days that work for you using the link
>=20
>> https://doodle.com/poll/ntmvnqe5qpubtama
>=20
> You included dates, but not times or time zones.
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are conf=
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n any medium. Thank you.


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From: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
To: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
CC: Michael Richardson <mcr@sandelman.ca>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] RATS interim meeting prior to IETF 105
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Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 15:53:53 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Rats] RATS interim meeting prior to IETF 105
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Hi Ned,

What location have you had in mind? This will make a big difference for me =
because I have to take the travel days into account.
How many days are we talking about?

Ciao
Hannes


-----Original Message-----
From: Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com>
Sent: Donnerstag, 25. April 2019 17:12
To: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
Cc: Michael Richardson <mcr@sandelman.ca>; rats@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Rats] RATS interim meeting prior to IETF 105

I was thinking of eliminating travel days then following up with finer gran=
ularity poll.

Can go either way whichever the group prefers.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Apr 25, 2019, at 6:54 AM, Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com=
> wrote:
>
> I was about to make the same remark.
>
> Also, it would be interesting to see what dates/times everyone else prefe=
rs. I believe you configured the Doodle poll to hide this information.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Michael Richardson
> Sent: Donnerstag, 25. April 2019 15:25
> To: Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com>
> Cc: rats@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [Rats] RATS interim meeting prior to IETF 105
>
>
> Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com> wrote:
>> We're planning to hold an interim RATS WG meeting preceding the IETF
>> 105 face to face.
>
>> Several dates have been identified that work for the chairs. Please
>> vote for the days that work for you using the link
>
>> https://doodle.com/poll/ntmvnqe5qpubtama
>
> You included dates, but not times or time zones.
>
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are conf=
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IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid=
ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p=
lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any=
 other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in =
any medium. Thank you.


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Subject: Re: [Rats] RATS interim meeting prior to IETF 105
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From nobody Thu Apr 25 12:29:22 2019
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Comments: In-reply-to Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> message dated "Thu, 25 Apr 2019 15:53:53 -0000."
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Subject: Re: [Rats] RATS interim meeting prior to IETF 105
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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain


Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> wrote:
    > What location have you had in mind? This will make a big difference for
    > me because I have to take the travel days into account.  How many days
    > are we talking about?

Oh. I was thinking it was a virtual interim.
So asking about days rather than hours makes a bit more sense now.
Yes, which continent really matters here.

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-




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From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
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Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2019 10:41:59 -0700
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To: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] UEID questions
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So, yes, now that I look at it again, I think use of the term =E2=80=9CGUI=
D=E2=80=9D should be removed.=20

Yes, most of the draft is giving instructions to the creator of the EUID =
to help them get it right and those instructions are not really =
necessary for interop, just so the generator of them gets it right. =
(Note that most of the UUID draft is such instructions).  I think the =
instructions are pretty important as some may not even be aware of =
probabilistic construction and such. The idea is to pick a few simple =
ways to get it done to give a lot of help to implementors.=20

So, types 2 through 6 are already-existing identifier that will work =
great. If the implementor has those handy, it is super easy for them. =
The length of them is as the existing identifier=E2=80=99s length.  We =
can add a few more, but should be conservative about it. Are you OK with =
the inclusion of these types and the text for them? Are we just =
discussing type 1?
=20

Type 1 is the open-ended one for implementors that don=E2=80=99t have =
types 2-6 handy.  It needs to be better described as this (plus mention =
of crypto quality randomness, minus mention of GUID).

I think a minimum length for type 1 is important so that the =
probabilistic construction works. The whole thing falls a part if =
implementation use 4 byte integers or such.

I like having a maximum length to make small tight implementations much =
easier, especially when the max is one that can fit on the stack of a =
tiny IoT device. To give an example, in some X.509 implementations =
I=E2=80=99ve done for embedded use cases, I created a profile that =
limited the length of many fields so memory was small and memory =
management code was simple. X.509 of course can=E2=80=99t specify limits =
because it covers so many use cases, but EUID will work just fine with =
an upper limit.

LL





> On Apr 23, 2019, at 4:36 PM, Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com> wrote:
>=20
> See inline [nms].
> =20
> On 4/23/19, 3:51 PM, "Laurence Lundblade" <lgl@island-resort.com =
<mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>> wrote:
> =20
> Hi Ned,=20
> =20
> =20
>> On Apr 23, 2019, at 10:37 AM, Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com =
<mailto:ned.smith@intel.com>> wrote:
>> =20
>> The type-1 EUID in draft-manyam-rats-eat-00 lists GUID as consisting =
of 128 =E2=80=93 256 bits of random number. RFC4122 =
(https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4122 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4122>) says a UUID is 128-bits with 6 =
bits of variant/version info. Also the word random can mean different =
things. (i) selected at random (ii) entropic. RFC4122 doesn=E2=80=99t =
require entropic UUID values. Does the type-1 EUID intend to be RFC4122 =
compliant? If not does it make sense to include a variant that is =
RFC4122 compliant?=20
> =20
> EUID is certainly not UUID. While UUID is what exists, I think it is =
overly-complex and confusing with its various types and use cases. I =
want to very purposely avoid it.
> [nms] Some use UUID and GUID interchangeably. There is an RFC for =
UUID. I=E2=80=99m not aware of an RFC for GUID. The draft doesn=E2=80=99t =
disambiguate and it is a reasonable question to ask. Possibly the draft =
should be more clear?=20
> =20
> The if a random number, the GUID version of EUID must be a =
cryptographic quality. That is an omission in the draft that should be =
fixed.
> [nms] Does the draft intend to differ from GUID semantics? If there is =
a reference to where it is officially defined, readers could refer to =
that for guidance regarding expected entropy (if any).
> =20
> But there is a more important question / consideration at work here; =
which is why there even needs to be type and formatting semantics in the =
draft as the relying party/verifier treats them as opaque values. The =
draft seems to be informing the developers who are constructing the EUID =
not those who are using it. If that is correct, then there could be less =
rigid attention to what might be considered an acceptable (normative) =
EUID construction if it doesn=E2=80=99t affect interoperability.
> =20
>> =20
>> Also, the draft indicates the verifier should regard EUID (variants) =
as opaque. Hence, the way they=E2=80=99re constructed is mostly =
irrelevant IMO except for the length.
>> =20
>> The list of EUIDs seems to be selected based on popularity / common =
use, but there are cases where vendors require larger or smaller values =
based on a variety of implementation considerations. It might be helpful =
to have a type for a variable length EUID (as they are already defined =
to be variable length).
> =20
> I=E2=80=99m not sure what considerations would lead to different =
lengths. 33 or 17 bytes is not very large and there is no good reason to =
go larger.
> [nms] It is a question of whether the length constraints are even =
necessary for interoperability. The draft indicates EUID is a variable =
length structure. The processing overhead for variable length values is =
already encompassed, so why would the draft want to place artificial =
length constraints on top of that?
> =20
> 128 bits (16 bytes) is enough for one trillion humans to each have one =
trillion devices and the probability of collision less than a trillion =
(log base 10 of 2^ 128 =3D 38; log base 10 of a trillion is 12; 3 * 12 < =
38) So 128 bits seems like enough, but take it out to 256 bits because =
SHA-256 is popular and good and there is some extra margin. I see no =
point in allowing anything longer than 33-bytes.
> =20
> I don=E2=80=99t think it is good to go smaller because of the =
probability of collision starts to get low.
> =20
>> =20
>> Another approach could be to define the existing types in terms of a =
starting value (e.g. starts with EUI-48) but allows additional bits to =
be appended.  Could be represented as variable size structures or fixed =
size with padding (e.g. EUI-48-64 where first 48 bits is EU-48 and =
remaining 12 bits is vendor supplied and may include padding bits.)
> =20
> =20
> Almost any identifier can be turned into a GUID by running it through =
SHA-256. SHA-256 is about 1KB of object code and less than 200 bytes of =
context.
> [nms] Correct. Why not define EUID in terms of hash alg output lengths =
(e.g. 128b, 256b, 512b etc.)?
> =20
> Probably every device / OS / platform supports SHA-256 and it is easy =
to use. The draft does say that the GUID can be constructed this way. =
This seems like enough flexibility to accommodate schemes that don=E2=80=99=
t have an official type.
> =20
> The only types included in the draft are well managed truly universal =
identifiers. We wouldn=E2=80=99t want anything else.
> =20
> I think it is good to keep the number of types as small as possible so =
there should be good justification and vetting for all types allowed.
> [nms] Agree. The current list could be trimmed if the focus was on a =
few commonly useful lengths (e.g. 128b, 256b, 512b etc.) or just a =
single variable length value.
>> =20
>> A side-bar on encoding. If the information model describes these =
semantics, then some of the guidance in the current draft could be =
better focused on the relevant data model bindings. For example, a CBOR =
binding for EUID would not require a base-64 encoding requirement.
> =20
> Yes, agreed.
> =20
> LL


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">So, yes, now that I look at it again, I think use of the term =
=E2=80=9CGUID=E2=80=9D should be removed.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Yes, most of the draft is giving =
instructions to the creator of the EUID to help them get it right and =
those instructions are not really necessary for interop, just so the =
generator of them gets it right. (Note that most of the UUID draft is =
such instructions). &nbsp;I think the instructions are pretty important =
as some may not even be aware of probabilistic construction and such. =
The idea is to pick a few simple ways to get it done to give a lot of =
help to implementors.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div=
 class=3D"">So, types 2 through 6 are already-existing identifier that =
will work great. If the implementor has those handy, it is super easy =
for them. The length of them is as the existing identifier=E2=80=99s =
length. &nbsp;We can add a few more, but should be conservative about =
it. Are you OK with the inclusion of these types and the text for them? =
Are we just discussing type 1?</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Type 1 is the open-ended =
one for implementors that don=E2=80=99t have types 2-6 handy. &nbsp;It =
needs to be better described as this (plus mention of crypto quality =
randomness, minus mention of GUID).</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I think a minimum length for type 1 is =
important so that the probabilistic construction works. The whole thing =
falls a part if implementation use 4 byte integers or such.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I like having a maximum =
length to make small tight implementations much easier, especially when =
the max is one that can fit on the stack of a tiny IoT device. To give =
an example, in some X.509 implementations I=E2=80=99ve done for embedded =
use cases, I created a profile that limited the length of many fields so =
memory was small and memory management code was simple. X.509 of course =
can=E2=80=99t specify limits because it covers so many use cases, but =
EUID will work just fine with an upper limit.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><br class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Apr 23, 2019, at 4:36 PM, =
Smith, Ned &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com" =
class=3D"">ned.smith@intel.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">See inline [nms].<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On 4/23/19, 3:51 PM, "Laurence =
Lundblade" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" style=3D"color: =
rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt; wrote:<span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Hi Ned,<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" =
class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">On Apr 23, 2019, at 10:37 AM, Smith, Ned &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com" style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">ned.smith@intel.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">The type-1 EUID in =
draft-manyam-rats-eat-00 lists GUID as consisting of 128 =E2=80=93 256 =
bits of random number. RFC4122 (<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4122" style=3D"color: rgb(149, =
79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4122</a>) says a UUID is =
128-bits with 6 bits of variant/version info. Also the word random can =
mean different things. (i) selected at random (ii) entropic. RFC4122 =
doesn=E2=80=99t require entropic UUID values. Does the type-1 EUID =
intend to be RFC4122 compliant? If not does it make sense to include a =
variant that is RFC4122 compliant?<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">EUID is certainly not UUID. While =
UUID is what exists, I think it is overly-complex and confusing with its =
various types and use cases. I want to very purposely avoid it.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">[nms] Some use UUID and GUID =
interchangeably. There is an RFC for UUID. I=E2=80=99m not aware of an =
RFC for GUID. The draft doesn=E2=80=99t disambiguate and it is a =
reasonable question to ask. Possibly the draft should be more =
clear?<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" =
class=3D"">The if a random number, the GUID version of EUID must be a =
cryptographic quality. That is an omission in the draft that should be =
fixed.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">[nms] Does the =
draft intend to differ from GUID semantics? If there is a reference to =
where it is officially defined, readers could refer to that for guidance =
regarding expected entropy (if any).<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">But there is a =
more important question / consideration at work here; which is why there =
even needs to be type and formatting semantics in the draft as the =
relying party/verifier treats them as opaque values. The draft seems to =
be informing the developers who are constructing the EUID not those who =
are using it. If that is correct, then there could be less rigid =
attention to what might be considered an acceptable (normative) EUID =
construction if it doesn=E2=80=99t affect interoperability.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:=
 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">Also, the draft =
indicates the verifier should regard EUID (variants) as opaque. Hence, =
the way they=E2=80=99re constructed is mostly irrelevant IMO except for =
the length.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">The list of EUIDs =
seems to be selected based on popularity / common use, but there are =
cases where vendors require larger or smaller values based on a variety =
of implementation considerations. It might be helpful to have a type for =
a variable length EUID (as they are already defined to be variable =
length).</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">I=E2=80=99m not sure what =
considerations would lead to different lengths. 33 or 17 bytes is not =
very large and there is no good reason to go larger.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">[nms] It is a question of whether =
the length constraints are even necessary for interoperability. The =
draft indicates EUID is a variable length structure. The processing =
overhead for variable length values is already encompassed, so why would =
the draft want to place artificial length constraints on top of =
that?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">128 bits (16 bytes) is enough for =
one trillion humans to each have one trillion devices and the =
probability of collision less than a trillion (log base 10 of 2^ 128 =3D =
38; log base 10 of a trillion is 12; 3 * 12 &lt; 38) So 128 bits seems =
like enough, but take it out to 256 bits because SHA-256 is popular and =
good and there is some extra margin. I see no point in allowing anything =
longer than 33-bytes.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" =
class=3D"">I don=E2=80=99t think it is good to go smaller because of the =
probability of collision starts to get low.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:=
 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">Another approach =
could be to define the existing types in terms of a starting value (e.g. =
starts with EUI-48) but allows additional bits to be appended. =
&nbsp;Could be represented as variable size structures or fixed size =
with padding (e.g. EUI-48-64 where first 48 bits is EU-48 and remaining =
12 bits is vendor supplied and may include padding bits.)</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" =
class=3D"">Almost any identifier can be turned into a GUID by running it =
through SHA-256. SHA-256 is about 1KB of object code and less than 200 =
bytes of context.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">[nms] Correct. =
Why not define EUID in terms of hash alg output lengths (e.g. 128b, =
256b, 512b etc.)?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">Probably every =
device / OS / platform supports SHA-256 and it is easy to use. The draft =
does say that the GUID can be constructed this way. This seems like =
enough flexibility to accommodate schemes that don=E2=80=99t have an =
official type.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" =
class=3D"">The only types included in the draft are well managed truly =
universal identifiers. We wouldn=E2=80=99t want anything else.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">I think it is good to keep the =
number of types as small as possible so there should be good =
justification and vetting for all types allowed.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">[nms] Agree. The current list =
could be trimmed if the focus was on a few commonly useful lengths (e.g. =
128b, 256b, 512b etc.) or just a single variable length value.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:=
 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">A side-bar on =
encoding. If the information model describes these semantics, then some =
of the guidance in the current draft could be better focused on the =
relevant data model bindings. For example, a CBOR binding for EUID would =
not require a base-64 encoding requirement.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" =
class=3D"">Yes, agreed.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" =
class=3D"">LL</span></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></body></html>=

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From: "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] UEID questions
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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] UEID questions
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From: Jeremy O'Donoghue <jodonogh@qti.qualcomm.com>
To: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
CC: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] UEID questions
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Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 08:44:05 +0000
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From nobody Tue Apr 30 02:00:39 2019
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To: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
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From: Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] RATS interim meeting prior to IETF 105
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On 2019-04-24 20:26, Smith, Ned wrote:
> RATS participants,
> 
> We’re planning to hold an interim RATS WG meeting preceding the IETF 105 face to face.

In case there will be a virtual interim meeting, would it be possible for me to briefly (15 min?) describe the motives behind attested sessions compared to static schemes like FIDO, Android, TPM?

Thanx,
Anders

> 
> Several dates have been identified that work for the chairs. Please vote for the days that work for you using the link
> 
> https://doodle.com/poll/ntmvnqe5qpubtama
> 
> We’ll try to accommodate as many as possible.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Ned
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
> 

