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From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
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Date: Sun, 2 Jun 2019 03:33:26 -0700
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Cc: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Giridhar Mandyam <mandyam@qti.qualcomm.com>
To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
References: <CAHbuEH6Mdwp+neWbcecA-pMYZoXKiNda2A0EnMh-8WX=W9_edA@mail.gmail.com> <DM6PR11MB408939CC9EA79D479B76586DA11E0@DM6PR11MB4089.namprd11.prod.outlook.com> <E09EB1B2-ED56-4F1B-8D80-BF0D227199A3@island-resort.com> <82b0a75e5b5645d1a43d240373bca6dc@NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com> <DM6PR11MB4089DAD248EEAAF9F92F2C0AA11E0@DM6PR11MB4089.namprd11.prod.outlook.com> <50ddca72a9074e229976ca88f78e340a@NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com> <DM6PR11MB4089BF4C3F319894DAE8722AA11E0@DM6PR11MB4089.namprd11.prod.outlook.com> <175ea22d1a1948d48f8180424cc89ec0@NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com> <VI1PR08MB5360CE8EFA93515A140D30F2FA180@VI1PR08MB5360.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com> <DM6PR11MB408967D6E5EF0A355CF0D60BA1180@DM6PR11MB4089.namprd11.prod.outlook.com> <D53ECF26-E2F5-4BD5-A81F-BBE1AEEB4541@island-resort.com> <VI1PR08MB5360919E4669734878D75F6EFA190@VI1PR08MB5360.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com> <VI1PR08MB53608BBD4BC156012237D3C6FA190@VI1PR08MB5360.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com> <a811aa42-edee-a3c1-0a73-284f088dca6a@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/pT7y_KZ0EZVUY4wnu6taBf3vJUs>
Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for Adoption: EAT draft
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I think it makes sense to separate into two:

1) New rules and advice for registering CWT/JWT claims
2) A basic set of attestation-related claims this WG will define

To go on about 1), it seems we are expanding CWT/JWT from just being =
auth tokens to also being attestation tokens and also identity certs =
(draft-birkholz-core-coid-01) and maybe X.509 replacements. This seems =
like mostly a good idea to me. It will be super cool that code can be =
shared by all of these for example. Lots of claims will overlap which is =
good too.

So I don=E2=80=99t think it makes sense to talk about "expert review of =
EAT claims". Rather we should talk about "expert review of CWT/JWT =
claims" and how it should be different than it is now.

Also, if you haven=E2=80=99t looked at the register JWT claims, it=E2=80=99=
s worth checking out: https://www.iana.org/assignments/jwt/jwt.xhtml. Am =
also curious what people think of bringing them into CWT and especially =
how we avoid conflicting duplication between CWT and JWT.


To say more about 2), it seems we should really work to come up with a =
nice, well-thought-out, medium-sized, coherent set of claims for =
attestation and put them in an RFC. This is roughly what the EAT draft =
is.

LL



--Apple-Mail=_0F9F37E2-8DD3-4987-8E05-48515259E842
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">I think it makes sense to separate into two:</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; =
border: none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D"">1) New rules and =
advice for registering <i class=3D"">CWT/JWT claims</i></div><div =
class=3D"">2) A basic set of attestation-related claims this WG will =
define</div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">To go on about 1), it seems we are expanding CWT/JWT from =
just being auth tokens to also being attestation tokens and also =
identity certs (draft-birkholz-core-coid-01) and maybe X.509 =
replacements. This seems like mostly a good idea to me. It will be super =
cool that code can be shared by all of these for example. Lots of claims =
will overlap which is good too.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">So I don=E2=80=99t think it makes sense =
to talk about "expert review of EAT claims". Rather we should talk about =
"expert review of CWT/JWT claims" and how it should be different than it =
is now.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Also, =
if you haven=E2=80=99t looked at the register JWT claims, it=E2=80=99s =
worth checking out:&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://www.iana.org/assignments/jwt/jwt.xhtml" =
class=3D"">https://www.iana.org/assignments/jwt/jwt.xhtml</a>. Am also =
curious what people think of bringing them into CWT and especially how =
we avoid conflicting duplication between CWT and JWT.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">To say more about 2), it seems we should really work to come =
up with a nice, well-thought-out, medium-sized, coherent set of claims =
for attestation and put them in an RFC. This is roughly what the EAT =
draft is.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_0F9F37E2-8DD3-4987-8E05-48515259E842--


From nobody Sun Jun  2 11:51:11 2019
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To: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
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From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for Adoption: EAT draft
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Hi list,

there is a lot to unpack here, but I am under time constraints, so I 
will only address a single topic for now.

On 6/1/19 1:46 AM, Smith, Ned wrote:
> I don't believe I'm connecting the dots regarding YANG and EAT/CWT defined claims. YANG is a data definition model (captures semantics) and can be used to generate data formats (syntax) (e.g. https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-core-yang-cbor-10). EAT wasn't trying to be a data model AFAIK but seemed to include some semantics in the explanation of claims. However, CBOR/CWT syntax seems to be the context in which the semantic discussion takes place. Although, Laurence seems to agree that these could be separated - and possibly looking to CDDL as a way to express claims logically.
> 
> YANG and CDDL seem to be competing for the same role - that of being a language for capturing information model semantics precisely. Does this make sense to use both?

YANG is a modeling language for 'data at rest' that comes with a 
well-defined number of operations on how operate on this 'data at rest', 
including queries that return instances of the 'data at rest' data model 
via protocol messages.

CDDL is a data modeling language for 'data in motion' or documents 
encoded in JSON/CBOR. Operations are of course also often represented 
via CDDL as they are part of protocol messages. API, though, are typical 
not in the scope of CDDL.

In essence, Ned is correct wrt to semantics of information elements in 
so far that both YANG and CDDL can define them - and effectively 
represent the same semantics (most obviously in coreconf). Therefore, 
there is a requirement for mutual references between CWT and YANG 
semantics (everything else would be super confusing), or aligned 
registration.

But please let me highlight, in general, YANG and CDDL are most 
certainly not competing for the same role: prominent example, you do not 
need the overhead of YANG to define how protocol messages look like in CDDL.

The CDDL authors are working on a simple solution in the form of an 
informative RFC for guidance in this domain right now.


Viele Grüße,

Henk



> 
> If there are other WGs / RFCs that already capture claims semantics that RATS determines is relevant for describing trustworthiness, then the RATS information model could simply reference these other works.
> 
> Nevertheless, there may still be additional work ensuring the data model bindings can be realized for whatever formats the RATS WG determines are necessary (e.g. CBOR, CWT, other?).
> 
> Some discipline may be required to qualify discussion threads in terms of information model (semantics) and relevance to trustworthiness from discussion about formatting and the namespaces that are formatting specific (and therefore potentially semantically overlapping). Maybe consider making better use of the subject to better focus thread discussion? Just a suggestion.
> 
> Thx,
> Ned
> 
> 
> 
> ﻿On 5/31/19, 3:52 PM, "RATS on behalf of Henk Birkholz" <rats-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
> 
>      Hi Hannes,
>      
>      just thoughts from the top of my head:
>      
>      1.) Expert review of course is helpful (feasibility, no overlap in claim
>      semantics, etc.) and a quite straight forward procedure, but the
>      qualifying criteria for CWT claims for EAT review might be defined in
>      the EAT draft?
>      
>      2.) in order to not make this a shopping list, I like the SUIT approach
>      Hannes proposed, I think (not sure, if it is entirely applicable). In a
>      nutshell, going from user story, to requirement, to claims.
>      
>      But maybe that is on the information model level and should not burden
>      the EAT I-D which is at a nice scope right now?
>      
>      3.) Additionally, the semantics of a new CWT claim for EAT should be
>      checked against existing YANG statement semantics. If there is semantic
>      equivalence (or superset) defined in YANG already, the claim must
>      reference that one.
>      
>      I though this can be done via
>      
>      > https://yangcatalog.org/yang-search/
>      
>      But it seem not work for me right now...
>      
>      
>      That said, this would probably mitigate the issue, I assume. I might be
>      missing something important here, of course.
>      
>      Viele Grüße,
>      
>      Henk
>      
>      
>      
>      On 5/31/19 4:10 PM, Hannes Tschofenig wrote:
>      > Hi Eric, Hi Laurence,
>      >
>      > I thought about this a bit more.
>      >
>      > If I understand it correctly then your main concern is that we duplicate information in the CWT claims registry that is already available in other registries. Is my understanding correct?
>      > I also hear a second concern, which is more about whether the existing CWT / JWT registry contains claims that are not suitable for use in an EAT token.
>      >
>      > Underlying both concerns is the question about what makes for a good claim for use within an EAT token. Do we know the answer?
>      >
>      > Ciao
>      > Hannes
>      >
>      > -----Original Message-----
>      > From: Hannes Tschofenig
>      > Sent: Freitag, 31. Mai 2019 09:55
>      > To: 'Laurence Lundblade' <lgl@island-resort.com>; Eric Voit (evoit) <evoit@cisco.com>
>      > Cc: rats@ietf.org; Giridhar Mandyam <mandyam@qti.qualcomm.com>
>      > Subject: RE: [Rats] Call for Adoption: EAT draft
>      >
>      > Hi Laurence, Hi Eric,
>      >
>      >> So if an EAT is a CWT, then the proposal is to change the IANA registry rules for CWT in the EAT draft. Is that allowed? This is really a change to CWT and even JWT. Seems like it is saying that if a YANG-defined claim exists for a possible CWT or JWT claim, the YANG-based claim MUST be used.
>      >
>      > IMHO everything can be changed.
>      >
>      >> I think Eric’s thought about harmonizing is a good one. Learn from past efforts. Improve interop.
>      >
>      > Learning from past efforts sounds always good. Let me pick on the example from below about draft-ietf-netmod-geo-location-01. It appears to me that the netmod group has either not looked at the work from the IETF GEOPRIV working group or ignored it. (I have not been involved in the netmod group and so I cannot say.) GEOPRIV published a number of RFCs that provide details about how to encode different geodetic location shapes (based on a mapping from GML), civic location, relative location, talks about uncertainty and confidence, how to encode moving objects, etc. While there is no need to use the info 1:1 there is a lot that can be learned from the work in that group. Of course, the content for the location encoding in draft-mandyam-eat-01 isn't much better.
>      >
>      > For me the biggest question is whether location is actually a good source of information conveyed in an EAT token.
>      >
>      > Eric, I understand that you do not want to duplicate information. I don’t want to do that either. I have been wondering about this aspect myself (particularly when I read the location claim). For example, in the LwM2M context we have a (pretty naive) location object as part of the data model as well. The data model we use with LwM2M is different to how data is modelled in the EAT token. Is this unavoidable? In some sense the situation is similar to the Yang-defined data model. The source of information comes from a different part of the system and is conveyed differently. Maybe you could call it a different layering where a device with Yang objects has to treat the EAT token as opaque (particularly since it is digitally signed and potentially encrypted). I am currently leaning towards seeing it that way from a LwM2M perspective.
>      >
>      > Ciao
>      > Hannes
>      >
>      > ~ snip ~
>      >
>      > However, IANA registry rules revising aside, making it a MUST seems too much. I think the YANG-defined claims should be very much seriously considered, just like any other previous data structure definition, but that there be no blanket requirement.
>      >
>      > To go a little further and to be clear. When a YANG-defined claim is used the CBOR encoding of it will be used with CWT and the JSON encoding of it will be used with JWT. This hinges on draft-ietf-core-yang-cbor-10 producing satisfying, compact and sensible CBOR encodings (binary data is really CBOR binary, claim keys are small integers…).
>      >
>      > LL
>      >
>      >
>      >> On May 30, 2019, at 12:19 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) <evoit@cisco.com> wrote:
>      >>
>      >> Hi Hannes,
>      >>
>      >> I do like EAT.  I am hoping that it gets adopted.
>      >>
>      >> At the same time, I am trying to avoid unnecessary mapping of claims from a chipmakers domain into system integrator /network operator domains.  I believe much pain can be avoided with a little planning up front.  That is what I am trying to facilitate with this discussion.
>      >>
>      >> Specific details/examples in-line...
>      >>
>      >>> From: Hannes Tschofenig, May 30, 2019 1:18 PM
>      >>>
>      >>> Hi Giri, Hi Eric,
>      >>>
>      >>> (a) some principles/guidance to CWT claims registry people on avoiding the mass registration of lightly-used or unused claims
>      >>>
>      >>> Why is this a requirement? When a claim is registered then it is most likely done with the anticipation that it will be used. I have not seen other IETF registries that have raised the bar to a similar level, at least the JWT claims registry does not work that way. Furthermore, what is the harm in registering claims that later turn out to be less frequently used?
>      >>
>      >> Let me provide a *best* case example.  In the NETMOD WG, there is a draft-ietf-netmod-geo-location.  Both that draft and this have definitions of latitude, longitude, altitude, accuracy, etc.   The *good* news is that both drafts are based on WGS84.  So at least our experts have lucked in to using a consistent resource.  But are these the same objects?  How does a reader know?   In one of the documents the latitude/longitude attributes are "FloatOrNumber", in the other they are "decimal64 {fraction-digits 16}".
>      >>
>      >> It of course gets harder for other objects.   The velocity objects in draft-mandyam-rats-eat are "heading" and "speed".  And draft-ietf-netmod-geo-location has this information "v-north", " v-east", and " v-up".  Here we have different formats, the first of which cannot be easily upgraded to serve three dimensions.
>      >>
>      >> And then we get into other harder objects where we will have timestamping, explicit domains of allowed entries, etc.  And is there is no boundaries on what might be claimed as an EAT, in theory we could create a parallel domain of objects without description on how to map between the two, placing the heavy lifting onto the implementer.
>      >>
>      >> Now I am not trying to solve world hunger in this thread.  I am just trying to have the draft consider minimizing inter-ecosystem friction where we can see it coming.  I believe with a little foresight we can ensure a consistent population and data typing for a subset of claims.   Without foresight, I see that people will create new CWT to avoid some later mapping.  And more/redundant CWT tags will harm interoperability.
>      >>
>      >>> (b) a requirement to map claims to existing YANG objects, if these YANG objects exist
>      >>>
>      >>> I also don’t understand this requirement. Is there some design rational why this would be needed/useful?
>      >>
>      >> Per above, EAT claim instances need to be integrated with other work/ecosystems in the IETF after the information comes off of a hardware chip.  A claim registry shouldn't create redundant info/formats to other work/ecosystems when it can be avoided, at least without broad discussion and consensus.   (I.e., lets avoid unconscious object definition and object domain overlaps wherever possible.)
>      >>
>      >> Eric
>      >>
>      >>> Cia
>      >>> Hannes
>      >> _______________________________________________
>      >> RATS mailing list
>      >> RATS@ietf.org
>      >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>      >
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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
CC: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Giridhar Mandyam <mandyam@qti.qualcomm.com>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] Call for Adoption: EAT draft
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Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2019 15:00:56 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for Adoption: EAT draft
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From: Simon Frost <Simon.Frost@arm.com>
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
CC: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Giridhar Mandyam <mandyam@qti.qualcomm.com>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] Call for Adoption: EAT draft
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Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2019 16:23:49 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/eZM584hpxKtmpqg1vsoZF1n9cpM>
Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for Adoption: EAT draft
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From nobody Tue Jun  4 13:00:00 2019
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From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
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Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 12:59:54 -0700
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Subject: [Rats] Vetting claim definitions
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RFC 8126 <https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8126> gives guidelines for =
writing IANA considerations and is useful background here.

=E2=80=94 Today CWT allocates about 512 slots for claims that are =
standards. These require a standards track RFC like the EAT draft might =
become. There can be other standards RFCs for attestation claims. They =
don=E2=80=99t all have to be defined in the one and only standard we are =
working on now. Seems that standardization is the path to really high =
quality claims that a lot of us want.=20

=E2=80=94 Today CWT allocates about 130,000 slots for =
specification-required. To get one of these slots also requires expert =
review and to publish a hopefully formal specification.

=E2=80=94 Today CWT allocates millions of slots for expert review. No =
specification is required, but some information should be provided.=20

JWT doesn=E2=80=99t seem to have this, which is maybe why it is messier. =
It kind of seems bad and wrong that it doesn=E2=80=99t to me.

COSE is like CWT for algorithms and headers and such.=20

Anyone know if there are any YANG-based protocols that have IANA =
registries? Where are all the YANG data formats defined and registered =
that we are interested in making into attestation claims?



Seems to me the three tiers that CWT (and COSE) define are at least a =
very good start for our purposes. All the better claims are ones we run =
through a standards process.=20

When we make them standard we=E2=80=99ll deal with how they line up with =
existing similar definitions in YANG, ASN.1, XML, JSON and such. Maybe =
the standard just says =E2=80=9Cuse this YANG-defined format=E2=80=9D in =
some particular way.

If we want something that is not as time-consuming and difficult as =
creating a standard, RFC 8126 defines a few more options between =
Standards Action and Specification Required.=20

At any rate, we ought to be more familiar with 8126 and bring it in here =
more.

LL






--Apple-Mail=_7D22F249-2DF3-4BE3-8D95-5D01FB0425CF
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8126" class=3D"">RFC =
8126</a>&nbsp;gives guidelines for writing IANA considerations and is =
useful background here.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">=E2=80=94 Today CWT allocates about 512 slots for claims that =
are <i class=3D"">standards</i>. These require a standards track RFC =
like the EAT draft might become. There can be other standards RFCs for =
attestation claims. They don=E2=80=99t all have to be defined in the one =
and only standard we are working on now. Seems that standardization is =
the path to really high quality claims that a lot of us =
want.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">=E2=80=
=94 Today CWT allocates about 130,000 slots for<i class=3D""> =
specification-required.</i>&nbsp;To get one of these slots also requires =
expert review and to publish a hopefully formal specification.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">=E2=80=94 Today CWT =
allocates millions of slots for <i class=3D"">expert review. </i>No =
specification is required, but some information should be =
provided.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">JWT doesn=E2=80=99t seem to have this, which is maybe why it =
is messier. It kind of seems bad and wrong that it doesn=E2=80=99t to =
me.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">COSE is =
like CWT for algorithms and headers and such.&nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Anyone know if there are =
any YANG-based protocols that have IANA registries? Where are all the =
YANG data formats defined and registered that we are interested in =
making into attestation claims?</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Seems to me the three tiers that CWT =
(and COSE) define are at least a very good start for our purposes. All =
the better claims are ones we run through a standards =
process.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">When we make them standard we=E2=80=99ll deal with how they =
line up with existing similar definitions in YANG, ASN.1, XML, JSON and =
such. Maybe the standard just says =E2=80=9Cuse this YANG-defined =
format=E2=80=9D in some particular way.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If we want something that is not as =
time-consuming and difficult as creating a standard, RFC 8126 defines a =
few more options between Standards Action and Specification =
Required.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">At any rate, we ought to be more familiar with 8126 and bring =
it in here more.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_7D22F249-2DF3-4BE3-8D95-5D01FB0425CF--


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To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] Vetting claim definitions
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Vetting claim definitions
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Vetting claim definitions
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Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com> wrote:
    > =E2=80=94 Today CWT allocates millions of slots for expert review. No
    > specification is required, but some information should be provided.

    > JWT doesn=E2=80=99t seem to have this, which is maybe why it is messi=
er. It
    > kind of seems bad and wrong that it doesn=E2=80=99t to me.

JWT doesn't have this because the claims are "unlimited" length strings, so
one can always make up a unique string in lieu of registration.
  org.island-resort.lgl.whateverstringyouwant

is probably completely yours :-)
Of course, if you want to interoperate you need to agree about how, so there
are some advantages of a forcing function that demands you write things down
first :-)

    > COSE is like CWT for algorithms and headers and such.

    > Anyone know if there are any YANG-based protocols that have IANA
    > registries? Where are all the YANG data formats defined and registered
    > that we are interested in making into attestation claims?

A number of YANG modules have imported IANA registries with mixed results,
and then wondered if they can be automatically extended when IANA extends
things.
Up until recently, YANG has been largely used to describe the management of
existing (non-YANG) protocols,  so I think that the issue you bring up
is something we have yet to properly tackle.

    > Seems to me the three tiers that CWT (and COSE) define are at least a
    > very good start for our purposes. All the better claims are ones we r=
un
    > through a standards process.

I agree.

    > When we make them standard we=E2=80=99ll deal with how they line up w=
ith
    > existing similar definitions in YANG, ASN.1, XML, JSON and such. Maybe
    > the standard just says =E2=80=9Cuse this YANG-defined format=E2=80=9D=
 in some
    > particular way.

YANG is to ASN.1 what CBOR is to DER.
So, it's important to remember that YANG doesn't define a format, but rather
an information model.

    > At any rate, we ought to be more familiar with 8126 and bring it in
    > here more.

It's definitely worth knowing well :-)
I seem to think that there was a Sunday EDU session about IANA
Considerations, but I can't trivially find a video. I did find:
                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DD__mAX-2sXo
                https://youtu.be/Lk5j25nmZKY?t=3D223

but it isn't about IANA Considerations.

=2D-
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-

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Subject: Re: [Rats] Vetting claim definitions
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Below=E2=80=A6
+ Mike Jones, co-author of CWT

> On Jun 5, 2019, at 6:05 AM, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> =
wrote:
>=20
>=20
> Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com> wrote:
>> =E2=80=94 Today CWT allocates millions of slots for expert review. No
>> specification is required, but some information should be provided.
>=20
>> JWT doesn=E2=80=99t seem to have this, which is maybe why it is =
messier. It
>> kind of seems bad and wrong that it doesn=E2=80=99t to me.
>=20
> JWT doesn't have this because the claims are "unlimited" length =
strings, so
> one can always make up a unique string in lieu of registration.
>  org.island-resort.lgl.whateverstringyouwant
>=20
> is probably completely yours :-)
> Of course, if you want to interoperate you need to agree about how, so =
there
> are some advantages of a forcing function that demands you write =
things down
> first :-)

Unlimited length string claim names are fully part of CWT. Also, COSE =
allows them for headers, algorithm names and such too. So from a syntax =
view CWT and COSE are the same as JWT in allowing long string names.

However, COSE and CWT are different in the management of the string name =
space:

Strings of length 1	Standards Action
Strings of length 2	Specification Required
Strings of length greater than 2	Expert Review

These, along with the integer names space rules, then imply:

Integer values less than -65536 are the only ones free for use with no =
review or processing by IANA and experts.

JWT also has this notion of Collision-Resistant Name based on OIDs or =
UUIDs, which is essentially some rules to make up names that don=E2=80=99t=
 go into an IANA registry and are still unique and won=E2=80=99t =
collide.

JWT could have done what CWT does. Seems to me that CWT has taken a =
radically more managed approach to the super-open JWT approach. Maybe =
the CWT folks realized the JWT design was poor.


At any rate, there seems to be some consensus here that the CWT approach =
is what we want for attestation. It is also the more recent and thus =
maybe more advanced thinking.

I=E2=80=99m hoping we can find our way to just accept the CWT claim =
naming management scheme as is for attestation. If other CWT-based =
efforts did the same (draft-birkholz-core-coid) did the same then the =
world would be much simpler.=20

However that still leaves open some issue with JWT namespace management. =
(We do want JSON based attestation to be JWT=E2=80=99s, right? Just the =
same as CBOR-based attestation are CWT=E2=80=99s).

LL


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Below=E2=80=A6<div class=3D"">+ Mike Jones, co-author of =
CWT<br class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jun 5, 2019, at 6:05 AM, Michael =
Richardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca" =
class=3D"">mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com"=
 class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote=
 type=3D"cite" class=3D"">=E2=80=94 Today CWT allocates millions of =
slots for expert review. No<br class=3D"">specification is required, but =
some information should be provided.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">JWT doesn=E2=80=99t seem =
to have this, which is maybe why it is messier. It<br class=3D"">kind of =
seems bad and wrong that it doesn=E2=80=99t to me.<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">JWT doesn't have this because the =
claims are "unlimited" length strings, so<br class=3D"">one can always =
make up a unique string in lieu of registration.<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;org.island-resort.lgl.whateverstringyouwant<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">is probably completely yours :-)<br class=3D"">Of course, if =
you want to interoperate you need to agree about how, so there<br =
class=3D"">are some advantages of a forcing function that demands you =
write things down<br class=3D"">first :-)<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Unlimited length string claim names are fully part =
of CWT. Also, COSE allows them for headers, algorithm names and such =
too. So from a syntax view CWT and COSE are the same as JWT in allowing =
long string names.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>However, COSE and =
CWT are different in the management of the string name =
space:</div><div><br class=3D""></div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin: =
0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div><div>Strings of =
length 1<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>Standards Action</div></div><div><div>Strings of length 2<span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>Specification Required</div></div><div><div>Strings of length =
greater than 2<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>Expert Review</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><div>These, along with the =
integer names space rules, then imply:</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: =
none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div><div>Integer values less than =
-65536 are the only ones free for use with no review or processing by =
IANA and experts.</div></div></blockquote><div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>JWT also has this notion =
of&nbsp;Collision-Resistant Name based on OIDs or UUIDs, which is =
essentially some rules to make up names that don=E2=80=99t go into an =
IANA registry and are still unique and won=E2=80=99t =
collide.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>JWT could have done what =
CWT does. Seems to me that CWT has taken a radically more managed =
approach to the super-open JWT approach. Maybe the CWT folks realized =
the JWT design was poor.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>At any rate, there seems to be some consensus here =
that the CWT approach is what we want for attestation. It is also the =
more recent and thus maybe more advanced thinking.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>I=E2=80=99m hoping we can find our way to just =
accept the CWT claim naming management scheme as is for attestation. If =
other CWT-based efforts did the same (draft-birkholz-core-coid) did the =
same then the world would be much simpler.&nbsp;</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>However that still leaves open some issue with JWT =
namespace management. (We do want JSON based attestation to be JWT=E2=80=99=
s, right? Just the same as CBOR-based attestation are =
CWT=E2=80=99s).</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>LL</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></body></html>=

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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/aF6Zh1XPvwmux1v1mF7q371W9-c>
Subject: Re: [Rats] Vetting claim definitions
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Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2019 12:02:04 -0700
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Cc: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones=40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
References: <BC6D5D3A-BD2F-496E-AA68-D2A758A33843@island-resort.com> <12913.1559739926@localhost> <30754CD8-98AB-4080-952E-880BC630EC69@island-resort.com> <BL0PR00MB029274A33B44A0B8CE310C0BF5160@BL0PR00MB0292.namprd00.prod.outlook.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Vetting claim definitions
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So in conclusion, all claims for JWT are:

Specification Required

and CWT claims are in 4 categories:

Standards Action
Specification Required
Expert Review
Private Use


Rather than trying to further refine or control or restrict or manage =
what claims can be registered, I propose a different approach. We do the =
two following work:

1) Do the work here and up front to define lots of good claims in a =
standards-track RFCs. Maybe over time it is several RFCs. When we do =
this work we should consider previous work on JWT, CWT, YANG, ASN.1 and =
such claims and try to avoid duplication.

2) We create profiles that list recommended claims for different use =
cases (router, small IoT consumer IoT device, mobile phone=E2=80=A6). =
Maybe some are standard track RFCs or maybe some are just informational. =
Also we know other organizations will do some of this work =
(GlobalPlatform, FIDO).=20

So registration of new claims related to attestation is just the same as =
it is for CWT and JWT claims today.

LL



> On Jun 5, 2019, at 10:30 AM, Mike Jones =
<Michael.Jones=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>=20
> Actually, normal (non-collision-resistant) JWT claims *are* allocated =
on a specification required basis with expert review.  See this text at =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#section-10.1 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#section-10.1>:
> =20
>    Values are registered on a Specification Required [RFC5226 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5226>] basis
>    after a three-week review period on the jwt-reg-review@ietf.org
>    mailing list, on the advice of one or more Designated Experts.
>    However, to allow for the allocation of values prior to =
publication,
>    the Designated Experts may approve registration once they are
>    satisfied that such a specification will be published.
> =20
> So a specification can easily register both JWT and CWT claims.
> =20
>                                                        -- Mike
> =20
> From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>=20
> Sent: Wednesday, June 5, 2019 8:46 AM
> To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
> Cc: rats@ietf.org; Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
> Subject: Re: [Rats] Vetting claim definitions
> =20
> Below=E2=80=A6
> + Mike Jones, co-author of CWT
>=20
>=20
> On Jun 5, 2019, at 6:05 AM, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca =
<mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>> wrote:
> =20
>=20
> Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com =
<mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>> wrote:
>=20
> =E2=80=94 Today CWT allocates millions of slots for expert review. No
> specification is required, but some information should be provided.
>=20
>=20
> JWT doesn=E2=80=99t seem to have this, which is maybe why it is =
messier. It
> kind of seems bad and wrong that it doesn=E2=80=99t to me.
>=20
> JWT doesn't have this because the claims are "unlimited" length =
strings, so
> one can always make up a unique string in lieu of registration.
>  org.island-resort.lgl.whateverstringyouwant
>=20
> is probably completely yours :-)
> Of course, if you want to interoperate you need to agree about how, so =
there
> are some advantages of a forcing function that demands you write =
things down
> first :-)
> =20
> Unlimited length string claim names are fully part of CWT. Also, COSE =
allows them for headers, algorithm names and such too. So from a syntax =
view CWT and COSE are the same as JWT in allowing long string names.
> =20
> However, COSE and CWT are different in the management of the string =
name space:
> =20
> Strings of length 1            Standards Action
> Strings of length 2            Specification Required
> Strings of length greater than 2    Expert Review
> =20
> These, along with the integer names space rules, then imply:
> =20
> Integer values less than -65536 are the only ones free for use with no =
review or processing by IANA and experts.
> =20
> JWT also has this notion of Collision-Resistant Name based on OIDs or =
UUIDs, which is essentially some rules to make up names that don=E2=80=99t=
 go into an IANA registry and are still unique and won=E2=80=99t =
collide.
> =20
> JWT could have done what CWT does. Seems to me that CWT has taken a =
radically more managed approach to the super-open JWT approach. Maybe =
the CWT folks realized the JWT design was poor.
> =20
> =20
> At any rate, there seems to be some consensus here that the CWT =
approach is what we want for attestation. It is also the more recent and =
thus maybe more advanced thinking.
> =20
> I=E2=80=99m hoping we can find our way to just accept the CWT claim =
naming management scheme as is for attestation. If other CWT-based =
efforts did the same (draft-birkholz-core-coid) did the same then the =
world would be much simpler.=20
> =20
> However that still leaves open some issue with JWT namespace =
management. (We do want JSON based attestation to be JWT=E2=80=99s, =
right? Just the same as CBOR-based attestation are CWT=E2=80=99s).
> =20
> LL
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">So in conclusion, all claims for JWT are:</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; =
border: none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D"">Specification =
Required</div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">and CWT claims are in 4 categories:</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; =
padding: 0px;" class=3D"">Standards Action<br class=3D"">Specification =
Required<br class=3D"">Expert Review<div class=3D"">Private =
Use</div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Rather than trying to =
further refine or control or restrict or manage what claims can be =
registered, I propose a different approach. We do the two following =
work:</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">1) Do the work here and up front to define lots of good =
claims in a standards-track RFCs. Maybe over time it is several RFCs. =
When we do this work we should consider previous work on JWT, CWT, YANG, =
ASN.1 and such claims and try to avoid duplication.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">2) We create profiles =
that list recommended claims for different use cases (router, small IoT =
consumer IoT device, mobile phone=E2=80=A6). Maybe some are standard =
track RFCs or maybe some are just informational. Also we know other =
organizations will do some of this work (GlobalPlatform, =
FIDO).&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D"">So registration of new claims related to attestation is just =
the same as it is for CWT and JWT claims today.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><br class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jun 5, 2019, at 10:30 AM, =
Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D"">

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<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#002060" class=3D"">Actually, normal =
(non-collision-resistant) JWT claims *<b class=3D"">are</b>* allocated =
on a specification required basis with expert review.&nbsp; See this =
text at
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#section-10.1" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#section-10.1</a>:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#002060" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-family: Consolas; background-color: white; =
background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial =
initial;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; Values are registered on a =
Specification Required [</span><a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5226" title=3D"&quot;Guidelines =
for Writing an IANA Considerations Section in RFCs&quot;" class=3D""><span=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Consolas;color:#0066CC" =
class=3D"">RFC5226</span></a><span style=3D"font-family: Consolas; =
background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;" class=3D"">]
 basis<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-family: Consolas; background-color: white; =
background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial =
initial;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; after a three-week review period on =
the <a href=3D"mailto:jwt-reg-review@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">jwt-reg-review@ietf.org</a><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family: Consolas; =
background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; mailing =
list, on the advice of one or more Designated Experts.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-family: Consolas; background-color: white; =
background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial =
initial;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; However, to allow for the allocation =
of values prior to publication,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family: Consolas; =
background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; the =
Designated Experts may approve registration once they are<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-family: Consolas; background-color: white; =
background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial =
initial;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; satisfied that such a specification =
will be published.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#002060" class=3D"">So a specification can easily =
register both JWT and CWT claims.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#002060" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#002060" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp; -- Mike<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#002060" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>=

<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in" class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b class=3D"">From:</b> =
Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" =
class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt; <br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Sent:</b> Wednesday, June 5, 2019 8:46 AM<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">To:</b> Michael Richardson &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca" =
class=3D"">mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">rats@ietf.org</a>; Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Subject:</b> Re: [Rats] Vetting claim definitions<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p>
</div>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">Below=E2=80=A6<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">+ Mike Jones, co-author of =
CWT<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt" class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Jun 5, 2019, at 6:05 AM, =
Michael Richardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca" =
class=3D"">mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br class=3D"">
Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" =
class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt" class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">=E2=80=94 Today CWT allocates millions of slots for =
expert review. No<br class=3D"">
specification is required, but some information should be provided.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p>
</blockquote><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt" class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">JWT doesn=E2=80=99t seem to have this, which is =
maybe why it is messier. It<br class=3D"">
kind of seems bad and wrong that it doesn=E2=80=99t to me.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p>
</blockquote><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br class=3D"">
JWT doesn't have this because the claims are "unlimited" length strings, =
so<br class=3D"">
one can always make up a unique string in lieu of registration.<br =
class=3D"">
&nbsp;org.island-resort.lgl.whateverstringyouwant<br class=3D"">
<br class=3D"">
is probably completely yours :-)<br class=3D"">
Of course, if you want to interoperate you need to agree about how, so =
there<br class=3D"">
are some advantages of a forcing function that demands you write things =
down<br class=3D"">
first :-)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Unlimited length string claim =
names are fully part of CWT. Also, COSE allows them for headers, =
algorithm names and such too. So from a syntax view CWT and COSE are the =
same as JWT in allowing long string names.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">However, COSE and CWT are =
different in the management of the string name space:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-left:30.0pt;margin-right:0in" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Strings of length 1<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>
Standards Action<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Strings of length 2<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>
Specification Required<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Strings of length greater than =
2<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>Expert Review<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">These, along with the integer =
names space rules, then imply:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-left:30.0pt;margin-right:0in" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Integer values less than -65536 =
are the only ones free for use with no review or processing by IANA and =
experts.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">JWT also has this notion =
of&nbsp;Collision-Resistant Name based on OIDs or UUIDs, which is =
essentially some rules to make up names that don=E2=80=99t go into an =
IANA registry and are still unique and won=E2=80=99t collide.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">JWT could have done what CWT =
does. Seems to me that CWT has taken a radically more managed approach =
to the super-open JWT approach. Maybe the CWT folks realized the JWT =
design was poor.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">At any rate, there seems to be =
some consensus here that the CWT approach is what we want for =
attestation. It is also the more recent and thus maybe more advanced =
thinking.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">I=E2=80=99m hoping we can find =
our way to just accept the CWT claim naming management scheme as is for =
attestation. If other CWT-based efforts did the same =
(draft-birkholz-core-coid) did the same then the world would be much =
simpler.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">However that still leaves open =
some issue with JWT namespace management. (We do want JSON based =
attestation to be JWT=E2=80=99s, right? Just the same as CBOR-based =
attestation are CWT=E2=80=99s).<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal">LL<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">RATS =
mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">RATS@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=

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Thread-Topic: [Rats] Vetting claim definitions
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From nobody Fri Jun  7 09:00:52 2019
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From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool <session-request@ietf.org>
To: <session-request@ietf.org>
Cc: rdd@cert.org, rats@ietf.org, Kathleen.Moriarty.ietf@gmail.com, rats-chairs@ietf.org
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Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2019 09:00:45 -0700
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/0QD1gU5U67jaTId-mUMliGeUY-8>
Subject: [Rats] rats - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 105
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A new meeting session request has just been submitted by Kathleen Moriarty, a Chair of the rats working group.


---------------------------------------------------------
Working Group Name: Remote ATtestation ProcedureS
Area Name: Security Area
Session Requester: Kathleen Moriarty

Number of Sessions: 2
Length of Session(s):  1.5 Hours, 1.5 Hours
Number of Attendees: 40
Conflicts to Avoid: 
 First Priority: SecDispatch, SAAG, mile, acme, tls, SACM, TEEP, SUIT, NetConf




People who must be present:
  Ned Smith
  Kathleen Moriarty
  Nancy Cam-Winget
  Roman Danyliw

Resources Requested:

Special Requests:
  If 2 sessions at 1.5 hours is not possible, 1 session at 2.5 hours is the minimum we&#39;ll need to sort through items unless the interim goes swimmingly.
---------------------------------------------------------


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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones=40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] Vetting claim definitions
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Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2019 17:14:54 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Vetting claim definitions
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Vetting claim definitions
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Hi Eric,

Feels like there=E2=80=99s opposing views:

1) Carsten, Kathleen, myself and maybe Henk and others want an EAT to be =
a CWT/JWT.This really does make the claim set open-ended. CWT is a bit =
more carefully managed than JWT, but we=E2=80=99ll still end up with a =
lot of claims registered.=20

2) You want a very well-defined concise claim set, a controlled policy =
for allowing new claims and maximal interoperability.

I think both objectives are good and desirable.

I think the way to have both is to leave the CWT/JWT registration open =
as they are AND ALSO define a profile / subset in an IETF standard for =
your use case. This profile / subset can:

- Make clear normative references to extant claims that are considered =
well-enough formed and interoperable
- Define some new claims where none are extant
- Define a policy for adding new claims=20
- Labelling to distinguish the profile from a general open-ended CWT/JWT

So one way forward is for this WG to adopt another document. Maybe call =
it =E2=80=9CRouter Attestation Profile=E2=80=9D.  This would be in =
addition to EAT. It makes normative references to the EAT claims it =
likes.

Another way forward is for the EAT draft to change direction some and =
become the more tight and limited attestation definition. It would =
probably address more than just the router use case, but it would retain =
the main characteristics you want. If we do this, then we can expect =
other attestation use cases to write documents and maybe run them =
through this WG or maybe not.

LL


> On Jun 7, 2019, at 10:14 AM, Eric Voit (evoit) <evoit@cisco.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> Hi Hannes,
> =20
> If we were sure we could limit EAT claims to just a few things which =
come out of hardware, this wouldn't concern me as much as it does.  =
However the domain of attestable objects was left fairly open within the =
EAT draft.   And we need to determine what level of interoperability are =
we trying to shepherd via RATS.
> =20
> In the end, RATS (and EAT) need to determine the level of =
interoperability desired for specific claims.   I don't claim deep =
familiarity with JWT.  But looking at RFC-7519, Section 4.1, I see that =
I would have questions as an implementer.  For example, the claims =
"iss", "sub", and "aud" look to have population/processing which is =
application specific.  Therefore with these claims, it is up to =
applications on either side of the JWT must come to an agreement on what =
the populated instances mean.  (I.e., not the WG.)  =20
> =20
> Common of object definitions/claims from internal hardware are =
important if the Network Element needs to act on specific values.  And =
as a vendor, I know that I do want to act on information coming out of =
hardware even if the information is being pushed to a remote validator =
(e.g., immediately push an EAT token downstream if a specific hash value =
changes).  As a result I want more explicit and stable claim =
definitions.
> =20
> More highly specified claims of course exposes possible claim =
redundancy, foreign key relationships, and cross-mapping with downstream =
information models. I assert this is a good thing because we expose (and =
hopefully minimize) costs which are borne by downstream developers. =20
> =20
> Eric
> =20
> Hannes Tschofenig, June 7, 2019 7:29 AM
>=20
> FWIW: While the JWT registry looks more mixed in terms of claim types. =
This is, however, only a result of the widespread adoption.
> There are no problems, as far as I know, with the diversity of the =
claims and that they are not all useful in every context. Different =
deployments use the claims they find useful.
> =20
> I am wondering whether we are trying to fix a problem with the =
registry of claims that doesn=E2=80=99t occur in practice.
> =20
> Ciao
> Hannes
> =20
> From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>> On =
Behalf Of Mike Jones
> Sent: Mittwoch, 5. Juni 2019 19:31
> To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com =
<mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>>; Michael Richardson =
<mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca <mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>>
> Cc: rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Rats] Vetting claim definitions
> =20
> Actually, normal (non-collision-resistant) JWT claims *are* allocated =
on a specification required basis with expert review.  See this text at =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#section-10.1 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#section-10.1>:
> =20
>    Values are registered on a Specification Required [RFC5226 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5226>] basis
>    after a three-week review period on the jwt-reg-review@ietf.org =
<mailto:jwt-reg-review@ietf.org>
>    mailing list, on the advice of one or more Designated Experts.
>    However, to allow for the allocation of values prior to =
publication,
>    the Designated Experts may approve registration once they are
>    satisfied that such a specification will be published.
> =20
> So a specification can easily register both JWT and CWT claims.
> =20
>                                                        -- Mike
> =20
> From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com =
<mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>>=20
> Sent: Wednesday, June 5, 2019 8:46 AM
> To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca =
<mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>>
> Cc: rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org>; Mike Jones =
<Michael.Jones@microsoft.com <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>
> Subject: Re: [Rats] Vetting claim definitions
> =20
> Below=E2=80=A6
> + Mike Jones, co-author of CWT
> =20
>=20
> On Jun 5, 2019, at 6:05 AM, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca =
<mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>> wrote:
> =20
>=20
> Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com =
<mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>> wrote:
>=20
> =E2=80=94 Today CWT allocates millions of slots for expert review. No
> specification is required, but some information should be provided.
> =20
>=20
> JWT doesn=E2=80=99t seem to have this, which is maybe why it is =
messier. It
> kind of seems bad and wrong that it doesn=E2=80=99t to me.
>=20
> JWT doesn't have this because the claims are "unlimited" length =
strings, so
> one can always make up a unique string in lieu of registration.
>  org.island-resort.lgl.whateverstringyouwant
>=20
> is probably completely yours :-)
> Of course, if you want to interoperate you need to agree about how, so =
there
> are some advantages of a forcing function that demands you write =
things down
> first :-)
> =20
> Unlimited length string claim names are fully part of CWT. Also, COSE =
allows them for headers, algorithm names and such too. So from a syntax =
view CWT and COSE are the same as JWT in allowing long string names.
> =20
> However, COSE and CWT are different in the management of the string =
name space:
> =20
> Strings of length 1            Standards Action
> Strings of length 2            Specification Required
> Strings of length greater than 2    Expert Review
> =20
> These, along with the integer names space rules, then imply:
> =20
> Integer values less than -65536 are the only ones free for use with no =
review or processing by IANA and experts.
> =20
> JWT also has this notion of Collision-Resistant Name based on OIDs or =
UUIDs, which is essentially some rules to make up names that don=E2=80=99t=
 go into an IANA registry and are still unique and won=E2=80=99t =
collide.
> =20
> JWT could have done what CWT does. Seems to me that CWT has taken a =
radically more managed approach to the super-open JWT approach. Maybe =
the CWT folks realized the JWT design was poor.
> =20
> =20
> At any rate, there seems to be some consensus here that the CWT =
approach is what we want for attestation. It is also the more recent and =
thus maybe more advanced thinking.
> =20
> I=E2=80=99m hoping we can find our way to just accept the CWT claim =
naming management scheme as is for attestation. If other CWT-based =
efforts did the same (draft-birkholz-core-coid) did the same then the =
world would be much simpler.=20
> =20
> However that still leaves open some issue with JWT namespace =
management. (We do want JSON based attestation to be JWT=E2=80=99s, =
right? Just the same as CBOR-based attestation are CWT=E2=80=99s).
> =20
> LL
> =20
> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are =
confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended =
recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the =
contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy =
the information in any medium. Thank you.


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Hi =
Eric,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Feels like =
there=E2=80=99s opposing views:</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; =
padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D"">1) Carsten, Kathleen, myself =
and maybe Henk and others want an EAT to be a CWT/JWT.This really does =
make the claim set open-ended. CWT is a bit more carefully managed than =
JWT, but we=E2=80=99ll still end up with a lot of claims =
registered.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">2) You want a very well-defined concise claim set, a =
controlled policy for allowing new claims and maximal =
interoperability.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote><div class=3D"">I think both objectives =
are good and desirable.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">I think the way to have both is to leave the CWT/JWT =
registration open as they are AND ALSO define a profile / subset in an =
IETF standard for your use case. This profile / subset can:</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; =
border: none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D"">- Make clear =
normative references to extant claims that are considered well-enough =
formed and interoperable</div><div class=3D"">- Define some new claims =
where none are extant</div><div class=3D"">- Define a policy for adding =
new claims&nbsp;</div><div class=3D"">- Labelling to distinguish the =
profile from a general open-ended CWT/JWT</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote>So one way forward is for this WG to adopt =
another document. Maybe call it =E2=80=9CRouter Attestation Profile=E2=80=9D=
. &nbsp;This would be in addition to EAT. It makes normative references =
to the EAT claims it likes.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Another way forward is for the EAT draft to change direction =
some and become the more tight and limited attestation definition. It =
would probably address more than just the router use case, but it would =
retain the main characteristics you want. If we do this, then we can =
expect other attestation use cases to write documents and maybe run them =
through this WG or maybe not.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">LL<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Jun 7, 2019, at 10:14 AM, Eric Voit (evoit) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:evoit@cisco.com" class=3D"">evoit@cisco.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Hi =
Hannes,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">If we were sure we could limit EAT claims to just a few =
things which come out of hardware, this wouldn't concern me as much as =
it does.&nbsp; However the domain of attestable objects was left fairly =
open within the EAT draft.&nbsp; &nbsp;And we need to determine what =
level of interoperability are we trying to shepherd via RATS.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">In the =
end, RATS (and EAT) need to determine the level of interoperability =
desired for specific claims.&nbsp;&nbsp; I don't claim deep familiarity =
with JWT.&nbsp; But looking at RFC-7519, Section 4.1, I see that I would =
have questions as an implementer.&nbsp; For example, the claims "iss", =
"sub", and "aud" look to have population/processing which is application =
specific.&nbsp; Therefore with these claims, it is up to applications on =
either side of the JWT must come to an agreement on what the populated =
instances mean.&nbsp; (I.e., not the WG.)&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Common of =
object definitions/claims from internal hardware are important if the =
Network Element needs to act on specific values.&nbsp; And as a vendor, =
I know that I do want to act on information coming out of hardware even =
if the information is being pushed to a remote validator (e.g., =
immediately push an EAT token downstream if a specific hash value =
changes).&nbsp; As a result I want more explicit and stable claim =
definitions.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">More highly specified claims of course exposes possible claim =
redundancy, foreign key relationships, and cross-mapping with downstream =
information models. I assert this is a good thing because we expose (and =
hopefully minimize) costs which are borne by downstream =
developers.&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Eric<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"border-style: none none none =
solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-color: blue; padding: 0in =
0in 0in 4pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Hannes =
Tschofenig, June 7, 2019 7:29 AM<br class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-GB" class=3D"">FWIW: =
While the JWT registry looks more mixed in terms of claim types. This =
is, however, only a result of the widespread adoption.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-GB" class=3D"">There are no problems, as far as I know, with =
the diversity of the claims and that they are not all useful in every =
context. Different deployments use the claims they find useful.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-GB" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-GB" class=3D"">I am =
wondering whether we are trying to fix a problem with the registry of =
claims that doesn=E2=80=99t occur in practice.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-GB" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-GB" class=3D"">Ciao<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-GB" class=3D"">Hannes<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-GB" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; =
border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">From:</b><span=
 class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>RATS &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;<span=
 class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">On Behalf =
Of<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Mike Jones<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Mittwoch, 5. Juni 2019 =
19:31<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt;; =
Michael Richardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">rats@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Rats] Vetting claim =
definitions<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-GB" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">Actually, =
normal (non-collision-resistant) JWT claims *<b class=3D"">are</b>* =
allocated on a specification required basis with expert review.&nbsp; =
See this text at<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#section-10.1" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#section-10.1</a>:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Consolas; background-color: =
white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; Values are registered on a Specification =
Required [</span><a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5226" =
title=3D"&quot;Guidelines for Writing an IANA Considerations Section in =
RFCs&quot;" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Consolas; color: =
rgb(0, 102, 204);" class=3D"">RFC5226</span></a><span =
style=3D"font-family: Consolas; background-color: white;" class=3D"">] =
basis<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Consolas; background-color: =
white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; after a three-week review period on =
the<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:jwt-reg-review@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">jwt-reg-review@ietf.org</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Consolas; background-color: white;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; mailing list, on the advice of one or more =
Designated Experts.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Consolas; =
background-color: white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; However, to allow for =
the allocation of values prior to publication,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Consolas; background-color: white;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; the Designated Experts may approve registration =
once they are<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Consolas; background-color: =
white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; satisfied that such a specification will =
be published.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">So a =
specification can easily register both JWT and CWT claims.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp; -- Mike<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; =
border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">From:</b><span=
 class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt;<span=
 class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Wednesday, June 5, 2019 =
8:46 AM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Michael Richardson &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">rats@ietf.org</a>; Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Rats] Vetting claim =
definitions<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Below=E2=80=A6<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">+ Mike Jones, co-author of CWT<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;"><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Jun 5, 2019, at 6:05 =
AM, Michael Richardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><br class=3D"">Laurence Lundblade =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">=E2=80=94 =
Today CWT allocates millions of slots for expert review. No<br =
class=3D"">specification is required, but some information should be =
provided.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></blockquote><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;"><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">JWT doesn=E2=80=99t seem to have this, =
which is maybe why it is messier. It<br class=3D"">kind of seems bad and =
wrong that it doesn=E2=80=99t to me.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></blockquote><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">JWT doesn't have this because the claims are =
"unlimited" length strings, so<br class=3D"">one can always make up a =
unique string in lieu of registration.<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;org.island-resort.lgl.whateverstringyouwant<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">is probably completely yours :-)<br =
class=3D"">Of course, if you want to interoperate you need to agree =
about how, so there<br class=3D"">are some advantages of a forcing =
function that demands you write things down<br class=3D"">first :-)<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Unlimited length string claim names are fully part of CWT. =
Also, COSE allows them for headers, algorithm names and such too. So =
from a syntax view CWT and COSE are the same as JWT in allowing long =
string names.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">However, COSE and CWT are different in the management of the =
string name space:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin: =
5pt 0in 5pt 30pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Strings of length 1<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>Standards Action<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Strings of length 2<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>Specification =
Required<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Strings of length greater =
than 2<span class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span>Expert Review<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></div></blockquote><div=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">These, =
along with the integer names space rules, then imply:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin: 5pt 0in 5pt 30pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Integer values less than =
-65536 are the only ones free for use with no review or processing by =
IANA and experts.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></blockquote><div=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">JWT also has this notion of&nbsp;Collision-Resistant Name =
based on OIDs or UUIDs, which is essentially some rules to make up names =
that don=E2=80=99t go into an IANA registry and are still unique and =
won=E2=80=99t collide.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">JWT could have done what CWT does. Seems to me that CWT has =
taken a radically more managed approach to the super-open JWT approach. =
Maybe the CWT folks realized the JWT design was poor.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">At any rate, there seems to be some consensus here that the =
CWT approach is what we want for attestation. It is also the more recent =
and thus maybe more advanced thinking.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I=E2=80=99m hoping we can find our way =
to just accept the CWT claim naming management scheme as is for =
attestation. If other CWT-based efforts did the same =
(draft-birkholz-core-coid) did the same then the world would be much =
simpler.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">However that still leaves open some issue with JWT namespace =
management. (We do want JSON based attestation to be JWT=E2=80=99s, =
right? Just the same as CBOR-based attestation are CWT=E2=80=99s).<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">LL<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-GB" class=3D"">IMPORTANT NOTICE: The =
contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also =
be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the =
sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, =
use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. =
Thank you.</span></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></div></body></html>=

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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
CC: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones=40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] Vetting claim definitions
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Vetting claim definitions
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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
CC: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones=40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] Vetting claim definitions
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Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2019 20:31:02 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Vetting claim definitions
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From nobody Mon Jun 10 11:57:46 2019
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From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
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Cc: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones=40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/ItPecbHDxujAD6MNAv2NyoCa53g>
Subject: Re: [Rats] Vetting claim definitions
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Hi Eric,

So I think we have some agreement on general principles for how to =
structure the documents this work group produces so we can have both =
flexibility in the definition of new claims and well-defined concise =
sets claims for particular use cases.=20

In particular I appreciate the confirmation of this from Mike Jones. =
Hopefully lack of objection implies a lot of agreement.=20


Eric, I think you are now digging into the next level of detail on how =
to deal with TPM-based implementations and claims specified in YANG and =
how that will interoperate with CWT/COSE and JWT/JOSE based tokens.

I don=E2=80=99t really understand YANG and how to fully read =
draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module yet. Working on it (but I should =
be working on the new EAT draft=E2=80=A6)

draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module REQUIRES a TPM to implement it. =
That implies to me that neither CWT/COSE and JWT/JOSE signed container =
formats can be used because I don=E2=80=99t think TPM=E2=80=99s can =
produce either format. Pretty sure we agree that EAT will always be =
CWT/COSE or JWT/JOSE.=20

(It is also odd to me that an IETF standard would require particular HW. =
It should just be about bits on the wire. EAT will have some means to =
indicate the security of the HW and SW that produced a given token, but =
will not require any particular security from the HW or SW)

But let=E2=80=99s assume that a relying party (I think you call this the =
Network Element) can unpack and verify signature that in the format of =
CWT and JWT and the TPM-style sig that I think is implied by =
draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module. The result will be a set of =
claims in some syntax. It will be CBOR or JSON in the case of CWT or =
JWT.=20

What will it be for draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module??? =
YANG-described stuff an be lots of different syntaxes by my =
understanding. How many of them will a relying party be expected to =
support so there is interop?

I=E2=80=99m going to stop here for the answer to that question.

LL






> On Jun 7, 2019, at 1:31 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) <evoit@cisco.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Laurence,
> =20
> Effectively this =E2=80=9CRouter Attestation Profile=E2=80=9D draft =
you are proposing would consist of well-defined claims which are also =
YANG objects.  And these YANG objects would augment the model definition =
within draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module. =20
> =20
> If you agree, this is exactly what I was hoping to hear.  Good things =
which can come from this approach:
> Network Elements would be capable of reading some subset of what is =
coming off of EAT capable hardware chips.
> Where brand new claims are being explored, a search of existing YANG =
objects could be done.  Adoption on YANG definitions where possible =
would minimize downstream mapping.
> =20
> Eric
> =20
> From: Laurence Lundblade, June 7, 2019 2:53 PM
>=20
> Hi Eric,
> =20
> Feels like there=E2=80=99s opposing views:
> =20
> 1) Carsten, Kathleen, myself and maybe Henk and others want an EAT to =
be a CWT/JWT.This really does make the claim set open-ended. CWT is a =
bit more carefully managed than JWT, but we=E2=80=99ll still end up with =
a lot of claims registered.=20
> =20
> 2) You want a very well-defined concise claim set, a controlled policy =
for allowing new claims and maximal interoperability.
> =20
> I think both objectives are good and desirable.
> =20
> I think the way to have both is to leave the CWT/JWT registration open =
as they are AND ALSO define a profile / subset in an IETF standard for =
your use case. This profile / subset can:
> =20
> - Make clear normative references to extant claims that are considered =
well-enough formed and interoperable
> - Define some new claims where none are extant
> - Define a policy for adding new claims=20
> - Labelling to distinguish the profile from a general open-ended =
CWT/JWT
> =20
> So one way forward is for this WG to adopt another document. Maybe =
call it =E2=80=9CRouter Attestation Profile=E2=80=9D.  This would be in =
addition to EAT. It makes normative references to the EAT claims it =
likes.
> =20
> Another way forward is for the EAT draft to change direction some and =
become the more tight and limited attestation definition. It would =
probably address more than just the router use case, but it would retain =
the main characteristics you want. If we do this, then we can expect =
other attestation use cases to write documents and maybe run them =
through this WG or maybe not.
> =20
> LL
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Jun 7, 2019, at 10:14 AM, Eric Voit (evoit) <evoit@cisco.com =
<mailto:evoit@cisco.com>> wrote:
> =20
> Hi Hannes,
> =20
> If we were sure we could limit EAT claims to just a few things which =
come out of hardware, this wouldn't concern me as much as it does.  =
However the domain of attestable objects was left fairly open within the =
EAT draft.   And we need to determine what level of interoperability are =
we trying to shepherd via RATS.
> =20
> In the end, RATS (and EAT) need to determine the level of =
interoperability desired for specific claims.   I don't claim deep =
familiarity with JWT.  But looking at RFC-7519, Section 4.1, I see that =
I would have questions as an implementer.  For example, the claims =
"iss", "sub", and "aud" look to have population/processing which is =
application specific.  Therefore with these claims, it is up to =
applications on either side of the JWT must come to an agreement on what =
the populated instances mean.  (I.e., not the WG.)  =20
> =20
> Common of object definitions/claims from internal hardware are =
important if the Network Element needs to act on specific values.  And =
as a vendor, I know that I do want to act on information coming out of =
hardware even if the information is being pushed to a remote validator =
(e.g., immediately push an EAT token downstream if a specific hash value =
changes).  As a result I want more explicit and stable claim =
definitions.
> =20
> More highly specified claims of course exposes possible claim =
redundancy, foreign key relationships, and cross-mapping with downstream =
information models. I assert this is a good thing because we expose (and =
hopefully minimize) costs which are borne by downstream developers. =20
> =20
> Eric
> =20
> Hannes Tschofenig, June 7, 2019 7:29 AM
>=20
> FWIW: While the JWT registry looks more mixed in terms of claim types. =
This is, however, only a result of the widespread adoption.
> There are no problems, as far as I know, with the diversity of the =
claims and that they are not all useful in every context. Different =
deployments use the claims they find useful.
> =20
> I am wondering whether we are trying to fix a problem with the =
registry of claims that doesn=E2=80=99t occur in practice.
> =20
> Ciao
> Hannes
> =20
> From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>> On =
Behalf Of Mike Jones
> Sent: Mittwoch, 5. Juni 2019 19:31
> To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com =
<mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>>; Michael Richardson =
<mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca <mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>>
> Cc: rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Rats] Vetting claim definitions
> =20
> Actually, normal (non-collision-resistant) JWT claims *are* allocated =
on a specification required basis with expert review.  See this text at =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#section-10.1 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#section-10.1>:
> =20
>    Values are registered on a Specification Required [RFC5226 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5226>] basis
>    after a three-week review period on the jwt-reg-review@ietf.org =
<mailto:jwt-reg-review@ietf.org>
>    mailing list, on the advice of one or more Designated Experts.
>    However, to allow for the allocation of values prior to =
publication,
>    the Designated Experts may approve registration once they are
>    satisfied that such a specification will be published.
> =20
> So a specification can easily register both JWT and CWT claims.
> =20
>                                                        -- Mike
> =20
> From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com =
<mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>>=20
> Sent: Wednesday, June 5, 2019 8:46 AM
> To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca =
<mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>>
> Cc: rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org>; Mike Jones =
<Michael.Jones@microsoft.com <mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>
> Subject: Re: [Rats] Vetting claim definitions
> =20
> Below=E2=80=A6
> + Mike Jones, co-author of CWT
> =20
>=20
> On Jun 5, 2019, at 6:05 AM, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca =
<mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>> wrote:
> =20
>=20
> Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com =
<mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>> wrote:
>=20
> =E2=80=94 Today CWT allocates millions of slots for expert review. No
> specification is required, but some information should be provided.
> =20
>=20
> JWT doesn=E2=80=99t seem to have this, which is maybe why it is =
messier. It
> kind of seems bad and wrong that it doesn=E2=80=99t to me.
>=20
> JWT doesn't have this because the claims are "unlimited" length =
strings, so
> one can always make up a unique string in lieu of registration.
>  org.island-resort.lgl.whateverstringyouwant
>=20
> is probably completely yours :-)
> Of course, if you want to interoperate you need to agree about how, so =
there
> are some advantages of a forcing function that demands you write =
things down
> first :-)
> =20
> Unlimited length string claim names are fully part of CWT. Also, COSE =
allows them for headers, algorithm names and such too. So from a syntax =
view CWT and COSE are the same as JWT in allowing long string names.
> =20
> However, COSE and CWT are different in the management of the string =
name space:
> =20
> Strings of length 1            Standards Action
> Strings of length 2            Specification Required
> Strings of length greater than 2    Expert Review
> =20
> These, along with the integer names space rules, then imply:
> =20
> Integer values less than -65536 are the only ones free for use with no =
review or processing by IANA and experts.
> =20
> JWT also has this notion of Collision-Resistant Name based on OIDs or =
UUIDs, which is essentially some rules to make up names that don=E2=80=99t=
 go into an IANA registry and are still unique and won=E2=80=99t =
collide.
> =20
> JWT could have done what CWT does. Seems to me that CWT has taken a =
radically more managed approach to the super-open JWT approach. Maybe =
the CWT folks realized the JWT design was poor.
> =20
> =20
> At any rate, there seems to be some consensus here that the CWT =
approach is what we want for attestation. It is also the more recent and =
thus maybe more advanced thinking.
> =20
> I=E2=80=99m hoping we can find our way to just accept the CWT claim =
naming management scheme as is for attestation. If other CWT-based =
efforts did the same (draft-birkholz-core-coid) did the same then the =
world would be much simpler.=20
> =20
> However that still leaves open some issue with JWT namespace =
management. (We do want JSON based attestation to be JWT=E2=80=99s, =
right? Just the same as CBOR-based attestation are CWT=E2=80=99s).
> =20
> LL
> =20
> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are =
confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended =
recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the =
contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy =
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> =20
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Hi Eric,</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">So I think we have some agreement on general principles for =
how to structure the documents this work group produces so we can have =
both flexibility in the definition of new claims <i =
class=3D"">and</i>&nbsp;well-defined concise sets claims for particular =
use cases.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">In particular I appreciate the confirmation of this from Mike =
Jones. Hopefully lack of objection implies a lot of =
agreement.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Eric, I think you are =
now digging into the next level of detail on how to deal with TPM-based =
implementations and claims specified in YANG and how that will =
interoperate with CWT/COSE and JWT/JOSE based tokens.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I don=E2=80=99t really =
understand YANG and how to fully read =
draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module yet. Working on it (but I should =
be working on the new EAT draft=E2=80=A6)</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module REQUIRES a TPM to =
implement it. That implies to me that neither CWT/COSE and JWT/JOSE =
signed container formats can be used because I don=E2=80=99t think =
TPM=E2=80=99s can produce either format. Pretty sure we agree that EAT =
will always be CWT/COSE or JWT/JOSE.&nbsp;</div></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">(It is also odd to me that an IETF =
standard would require particular HW. It should just be about bits on =
the wire. EAT will have some means to indicate the security of the HW =
and SW that produced a given token, but will not require any particular =
security from the HW or SW)</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div=
 class=3D"">But let=E2=80=99s assume that a relying party (I think you =
call this the Network Element) can unpack and verify signature that in =
the format of CWT and JWT and the TPM-style sig that I think is implied =
by draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module. The result will be a set of =
claims in some syntax. It will be CBOR or JSON in the case of CWT or =
JWT.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">What =
will it be for draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module??? YANG-described =
stuff an be lots of different syntaxes by my understanding. How many of =
them will a relying party be expected to support so there is =
interop?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I=E2=80=
=99m going to stop here for the answer to that question.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">LL</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Jun 7, 2019, at 1:31 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:evoit@cisco.com" class=3D"">evoit@cisco.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Hi =
Laurence,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Effectively this =E2=80=9CRouter Attestation Profile=E2=80=9D =
draft you are proposing would consist of well-defined claims which are =
also YANG objects.&nbsp; And these YANG objects would augment the model =
definition within draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module.&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">If you =
agree, this is exactly what I was hoping to hear.&nbsp; Good things =
which can come from this approach:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><ul =
type=3D"disc" style=3D"margin-bottom: 0in; margin-top: 0in;" =
class=3D""><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Network =
Elements would be capable of reading some subset of what is coming off =
of EAT capable hardware chips.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></li><li =
class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Where brand new claims are =
being explored, a search of existing YANG objects could be done.&nbsp; =
Adoption on YANG definitions where possible would minimize downstream =
mapping.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></li></ul><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Eric<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"border-style: =
none none none solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-color: blue; =
padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">From:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Laurence Lundblade, June 7, =
2019 2:53 PM<br class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Hi Eric,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Feels like there=E2=80=99s opposing views:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-left: 30pt; margin-right: 0in;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">1) Carsten, Kathleen, =
myself and maybe Henk and others want an EAT to be a CWT/JWT.This really =
does make the claim set open-ended. CWT is a bit more carefully managed =
than JWT, but we=E2=80=99ll still end up with a lot of claims =
registered.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">2) You want a very well-defined concise claim set, a =
controlled policy for allowing new claims and maximal =
interoperability.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I think both objectives are good and =
desirable.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">I think the way to have both is to leave the CWT/JWT =
registration open as they are AND ALSO define a profile / subset in an =
IETF standard for your use case. This profile / subset can:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-left: 30pt; margin-right: 0in;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">- Make clear normative =
references to extant claims that are considered well-enough formed and =
interoperable<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">- Define some new claims where none are =
extant<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">- Define a policy for adding new =
claims&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">- Labelling to distinguish the profile =
from a general open-ended CWT/JWT<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></blockquote><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">So one way forward is for this WG to adopt another document. =
Maybe call it =E2=80=9CRouter Attestation Profile=E2=80=9D. &nbsp;This =
would be in addition to EAT. It makes normative references to the EAT =
claims it likes.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Another way forward is for the EAT draft to change direction =
some and become the more tight and limited attestation definition. It =
would probably address more than just the router use case, but it would =
retain the main characteristics you want. If we do this, then we can =
expect other attestation use cases to write documents and maybe run them =
through this WG or maybe not.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;">LL<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: =
5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">On Jun 7, 2019, at 10:14 AM, Eric Voit (evoit) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:evoit@cisco.com" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">evoit@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Hi Hannes,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">If we were sure we could limit EAT =
claims to just a few things which come out of hardware, this wouldn't =
concern me as much as it does.&nbsp; However the domain of attestable =
objects was left fairly open within the EAT draft.&nbsp; &nbsp;And we =
need to determine what level of interoperability are we trying to =
shepherd via RATS.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">In the end, RATS (and EAT) need to determine the level of =
interoperability desired for specific claims.&nbsp;&nbsp; I don't claim =
deep familiarity with JWT.&nbsp; But looking at RFC-7519, Section 4.1, I =
see that I would have questions as an implementer.&nbsp; For example, =
the claims "iss", "sub", and "aud" look to have population/processing =
which is application specific.&nbsp; Therefore with these claims, it is =
up to applications on either side of the JWT must come to an agreement =
on what the populated instances mean.&nbsp; (I.e., not the =
WG.)&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Common of object definitions/claims =
from internal hardware are important if the Network Element needs to act =
on specific values.&nbsp; And as a vendor, I know that I do want to act =
on information coming out of hardware even if the information is being =
pushed to a remote validator (e.g., immediately push an EAT token =
downstream if a specific hash value changes).&nbsp; As a result I want =
more explicit and stable claim definitions.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">More highly specified claims of course =
exposes possible claim redundancy, foreign key relationships, and =
cross-mapping with downstream information models. I assert this is a =
good thing because we expose (and hopefully minimize) costs which are =
borne by downstream developers.&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Eric<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; =
border-left-color: blue; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Hannes Tschofenig, =
June 7, 2019 7:29 AM<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-GB" class=3D"">FWIW: =
While the JWT registry looks more mixed in terms of claim types. This =
is, however, only a result of the widespread adoption.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-GB" class=3D"">There are no problems, as far =
as I know, with the diversity of the claims and that they are not all =
useful in every context. Different deployments use the claims they find =
useful.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-GB" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-GB" =
class=3D"">I am wondering whether we are trying to fix a problem with =
the registry of claims that doesn=E2=80=99t occur in =
practice.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-GB" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-GB" =
class=3D"">Ciao</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-GB" =
class=3D"">Hannes</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-GB" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; =
border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: =
3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">From:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>RATS &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">rats-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">On Behalf =
Of<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Mike Jones<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Mittwoch, 5. Juni 2019 =
19:31<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</span></a>&gt;; Michael Richardson =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">rats@ietf.org</span></a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Rats] Vetting claim =
definitions<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-GB" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">Actually, normal (non-collision-resistant) =
JWT claims *<b class=3D"">are</b>* allocated on a specification required =
basis with expert review.&nbsp; See this text at<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#section-10.1" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7519#section-10.1</span></a>:</s=
pan><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
Consolas; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; Values are =
registered on a Specification Required [</span><a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5226" title=3D"&quot;Guidelines =
for Writing an IANA Considerations Section in RFCs&quot;" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(0, 102, 204);" =
class=3D"">RFC5226</span></a><span style=3D"font-family: Consolas; =
background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;" class=3D"">] basis</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Consolas; background-color: =
white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial =
initial;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; after a three-week review period on =
the<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:jwt-reg-review@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">jwt-reg-review@ietf.org</span></a></span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Consolas; background-color: =
white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial =
initial;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; mailing list, on the advice of one or =
more Designated Experts.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
Consolas; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; However, to =
allow for the allocation of values prior to publication,</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Consolas; background-color: =
white; background-position: initial initial; background-repeat: initial =
initial;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; the Designated Experts may approve =
registration once they are</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: =
Consolas; background-color: white; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; satisfied =
that such a specification will be published.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">So a specification can easily register both =
JWT and CWT claims.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp; -- Mike</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; =
border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: =
3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">From:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</span></a>&gt;<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Wednesday, June 5, 2019 =
8:46 AM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Michael Richardson &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:</b><span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">rats@ietf.org</span></a>; Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: purple;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</span></a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Rats] Vetting claim =
definitions<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Below=E2=80=A6<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">+ Mike =
Jones, co-author of CWT<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Jun 5, 2019, at 6:05 AM, Michael =
Richardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: =
purple;" class=3D"">mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca</span></a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><br =
class=3D"">Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com"=
 style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: purple;" class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</span></a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">=E2=80=94 Today CWT allocates millions of slots for expert =
review. No<br class=3D"">specification is required, but some information =
should be provided.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></blockquote><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 12pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">JWT doesn=E2=80=99t seem to have this, which is maybe why it =
is messier. It<br class=3D"">kind of seems bad and wrong that it =
doesn=E2=80=99t to me.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">JWT doesn't =
have this because the claims are "unlimited" length strings, so<br =
class=3D"">one can always make up a unique string in lieu of =
registration.<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;org.island-resort.lgl.whateverstringyouwant<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">is probably completely yours :-)<br =
class=3D"">Of course, if you want to interoperate you need to agree =
about how, so there<br class=3D"">are some advantages of a forcing =
function that demands you write things down<br class=3D"">first :-)<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Unlimited length string claim names are =
fully part of CWT. Also, COSE allows them for headers, algorithm names =
and such too. So from a syntax view CWT and COSE are the same as JWT in =
allowing long string names.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">However, COSE and CWT are different in =
the management of the string name space:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin: =
5pt 0in 5pt 30pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Strings of length 1<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Standards Action<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Strings =
of length 2<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Specification Required<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Strings =
of length greater than 2<span =
class=3D"apple-tab-span">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Expert Review<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">These, =
along with the integer names space rules, then imply:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin: =
5pt 0in 5pt 30pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Integer values less than =
-65536 are the only ones free for use with no review or processing by =
IANA and experts.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">JWT also has this notion =
of&nbsp;Collision-Resistant Name based on OIDs or UUIDs, which is =
essentially some rules to make up names that don=E2=80=99t go into an =
IANA registry and are still unique and won=E2=80=99t collide.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">JWT could have done what CWT does. =
Seems to me that CWT has taken a radically more managed approach to the =
super-open JWT approach. Maybe the CWT folks realized the JWT design was =
poor.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">At any rate, there seems to be some =
consensus here that the CWT approach is what we want for attestation. It =
is also the more recent and thus maybe more advanced thinking.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I=E2=80=99m hoping we can find our way =
to just accept the CWT claim naming management scheme as is for =
attestation. If other CWT-based efforts did the same =
(draft-birkholz-core-coid) did the same then the world would be much =
simpler.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">However that still leaves open some =
issue with JWT namespace management. (We do want JSON based attestation =
to be JWT=E2=80=99s, right? Just the same as CBOR-based attestation are =
CWT=E2=80=99s).<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">LL<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-GB" class=3D"">IMPORTANT=
 NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential =
and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, =
please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to =
any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the =
information in any medium. Thank you.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></div></div></div><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">RATS mailing list</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D"">RATS@ietf.org</a><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats</a></div></blockquot=
e></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_8BF31DF4-8716-455A-B01C-A4FC50A9E374--


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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
CC: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones=40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] Vetting claim definitions
Thread-Index: AQHVHSQrNP3gSrcbuEuedIL4RWxi86aQLzAwgABa8ACAABflIIAEoFOAgAAVAQA=
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2019 21:23:53 +0000
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From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
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Cc: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones=40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Vetting claim definitions
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Hi Eric,

What I=E2=80=99m trying to figure out here is where there can be real =
practical interoperability with extant YANG-defined objects and how we =
go about it as I assume this is your current objection to adoption.


> On Jun 10, 2019, at 2:23 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) <evoit@cisco.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> Hi Laurence,
> =20
> It is true that the YANG of draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module is =
currently TPM2 specific.  But over the past month we have been having =
discussions on how to augment into this model case statements and a tree =
structure which allows exposure of information from alternative hardware =
types such as the TPM1.2. =20
> =20
> Per your note below, I am guessing that =
draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module could provide a query/response =
interface to access EAT information.  The Network Element's YANG model =
theoretically could allow access based on whatever choice of protocols =
the Network Element supports (e.g., NETCONF/XML. RESTCONF/JSON, =
CoMI/CBOR).  But the choice and protocols of used to access EAT objects =
over a YANG interface is something each platform would need to define.   =
The baseline choice for Interoperability here is tbd.

You mentioned a YANG interface. Seems like a point where there might be =
interoperability. Is this an interface on the router that is used to =
collect the claims data before signing? Or is it an interface on the =
back end / server / relying party that is involved in validating the =
data? Or maybe it is the rpc interaction defined in =
draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module? I=E2=80=99m not sure what the =
intended endpoints of that RPC are. Router and Relying Party?=20

Now that we are generally agreeing that an EAT is a CWT or JWT, the =
interaction model between device and relying party is inherited from =
them. Mostly we=E2=80=99re defining the format of a signed message and =
leaving the transport of the message open-ended so it can be embedded in =
HTTP headers, protocol extensions and such. If YANG is used to define =
interaction on routers, then some YANG RPC could be used (if that is =
what YANG RPC is) to define transport of CWTs (if CWTs are used on =
routers). There=E2=80=99s also =
draft-birkholz-reference-ra-interaction-model.

> =20
> Whether it is even meaningful/relevant to support such YANG-EAT =
interoperability is something I don't know yet.  For me to consider EAT =
for implementation would mean EAT has been adopted within =
routers/switches.   As this is possible, I feel there is little for the =
WG to lose if we try to select/define some common objects which span our =
different domains.


Here=E2=80=99s comments on a pass through =
draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module

grouping nonce {... Seems essentially compatible with nonce / cti / jai =
in CWT / JWT
grouping pcr-selection {...   TPM-specific so we probably go with the =
YANG definition
grouping pcr-selector {...   TPM-specific so we probably go with the =
YANG definition
grouping signature-scheme {=E2=80=A6 EAT will use COSE for this
grouping attestation-key-identifier {=E2=80=A6 EAT will use COSE for =
this
grouping tpm-name {=E2=80=A6 TPM-specific so we probably go with the =
YANG definition
grouping compute-node {=E2=80=A6 I think this one needs work to figure =
out what it is and if EAT=E2=80=99s UEID is similar
grouping node-uptime {=E2=80=A6 Seems simple to make exactly the same =
for EAT
grouping log-identifier {=E2=80=A6 and grouping boot-event-log {=E2=80=A6 =
and other log stuff=E2=80=A6 Maybe TPM specific; maybe needs work to =
understand
grouping ima-event {=E2=80=A6 and related. We do want some IMA claims in =
CWT format. Maybe they are part of EAT. Maybe they are separate. Maybe =
they use the YANG definition.=20

> =20
> Please understand that in no way do I claim that YANG is perfect.  And =
YANG models can take years to complete.   But on the plus side for YANG, =
I am sure it is possible to construct YANG models so that new hardware =
types can be inserted.  If you want a preview of the types of structure =
which might be used for this type of extensibility, check out at how =
draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push augments new case types into a the YANG =
model described within draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications.

YANG not perfect?? Huh? What?  :-)

I wish some YANG experts would chime in more here. I=E2=80=99m trying to =
learn on the fly and really should be updating the EAT draft instead.

LL


> =20
> Eric
> =20
> From: Laurence Lundblade, June 10, 2019 2:57 PM
>=20
> Hi Eric,
> =20
> So I think we have some agreement on general principles for how to =
structure the documents this work group produces so we can have both =
flexibility in the definition of new claims and well-defined concise =
sets claims for particular use cases.=20
> =20
> In particular I appreciate the confirmation of this from Mike Jones. =
Hopefully lack of objection implies a lot of agreement.=20
> =20
> =20
> Eric, I think you are now digging into the next level of detail on how =
to deal with TPM-based implementations and claims specified in YANG and =
how that will interoperate with CWT/COSE and JWT/JOSE based tokens.
> =20
> I don=E2=80=99t really understand YANG and how to fully read =
draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module yet. Working on it (but I should =
be working on the new EAT draft=E2=80=A6)
> =20
> draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module REQUIRES a TPM to implement it. =
That implies to me that neither CWT/COSE and JWT/JOSE signed container =
formats can be used because I don=E2=80=99t think TPM=E2=80=99s can =
produce either format. Pretty sure we agree that EAT will always be =
CWT/COSE or JWT/JOSE.=20
> =20
> (It is also odd to me that an IETF standard would require particular =
HW. It should just be about bits on the wire. EAT will have some means =
to indicate the security of the HW and SW that produced a given token, =
but will not require any particular security from the HW or SW)
> =20
> But let=E2=80=99s assume that a relying party (I think you call this =
the Network Element) can unpack and verify signature that in the format =
of CWT and JWT and the TPM-style sig that I think is implied by =
draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module. The result will be a set of =
claims in some syntax. It will be CBOR or JSON in the case of CWT or =
JWT.=20
> =20
> What will it be for draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module??? =
YANG-described stuff an be lots of different syntaxes by my =
understanding. How many of them will a relying party be expected to =
support so there is interop?
> =20
> I=E2=80=99m going to stop here for the answer to that question.
> =20
> LL
> =20


--Apple-Mail=_F99B834B-EB64-47E1-A578-49D4F9176C7A
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Hi =
Eric,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">What I=E2=80=99m=
 trying to figure out here is where there can be real practical =
interoperability with extant YANG-defined objects and how we go about it =
as I assume this is your current objection to adoption.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jun =
10, 2019, at 2:23 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:evoit@cisco.com" class=3D"">evoit@cisco.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Hi =
Laurence,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">It is true that the YANG of =
draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module is currently TPM2 specific.&nbsp; =
But over the past month we have been having discussions on how to =
augment into this model case statements and a tree structure which =
allows exposure of information from alternative hardware types such as =
the TPM1.2.&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></div></div></div></blockquot=
e><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" =
style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Per your =
note below, I am guessing that draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module =
could provide a query/response interface to access EAT =
information.&nbsp; The Network Element's YANG model theoretically could =
allow access based on whatever choice of protocols the Network Element =
supports (e.g., NETCONF/XML. RESTCONF/JSON, CoMI/CBOR). &nbsp;But the =
choice and protocols of used to access EAT objects over a YANG interface =
is something each platform would need to define. &nbsp;&nbsp;The =
baseline choice for Interoperability here is =
tbd.</div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>You =
mentioned a YANG interface. Seems like a point where there might be =
interoperability. Is this an interface on the router that is used to =
collect the claims data before signing? Or is it an interface on the =
back end / server / relying party that is involved in validating the =
data? Or maybe it is the rpc interaction defined =
in&nbsp;draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module? I=E2=80=99m not sure what =
the intended endpoints of that RPC are. Router and Relying =
Party?&nbsp;</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Now that we are =
generally agreeing that an EAT is a CWT or JWT, the interaction model =
between device and relying party is inherited from them. Mostly we=E2=80=99=
re defining the format of a signed message and leaving the transport of =
the message open-ended so it can be embedded in HTTP headers, protocol =
extensions and such. If YANG is used to define interaction on routers, =
then some YANG RPC could be used (if that is what YANG RPC is) to define =
transport of CWTs (if CWTs are used on routers). There=E2=80=99s =
also&nbsp;draft-birkholz-reference-ra-interaction-model.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: =
WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Whether =
it is even meaningful/relevant to support such YANG-EAT interoperability =
is something I don't know yet.&nbsp; For me to consider EAT for =
implementation would mean EAT has been adopted within routers/switches. =
&nbsp;&nbsp;As this is possible, I feel there is little for the WG to =
lose if we try to select/define some common objects which span our =
different domains.</div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Here=E2=80=99s comments =
on a pass =
through&nbsp;draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><div class=3D"">grouping nonce {...&nbsp;Seems =
essentially compatible with nonce / cti / jai in CWT / JWT<br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">grouping pcr-selection {... =
&nbsp;&nbsp;TPM-specific so we probably go with the YANG =
definition</div><div class=3D"">grouping pcr-selector {... =
&nbsp;&nbsp;TPM-specific so we probably go with the YANG definition<br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">grouping signature-scheme {=E2=80=A6 =
EAT will use COSE for this</div><div class=3D"">grouping =
attestation-key-identifier {=E2=80=A6 EAT will use COSE for =
this</div></div><div>grouping tpm-name {=E2=80=A6 TPM-specific so we =
probably go with the YANG definition</div><div>grouping compute-node =
{=E2=80=A6 I think this one needs work to figure out what it is and if =
EAT=E2=80=99s UEID is similar</div><div>grouping node-uptime {=E2=80=A6 =
Seems simple to make exactly the same for EAT</div><div>grouping =
log-identifier {=E2=80=A6 and grouping boot-event-log {=E2=80=A6 and =
other log stuff=E2=80=A6 Maybe TPM specific; maybe needs work to =
understand</div><div>grouping ima-event {=E2=80=A6 and related. We do =
want some IMA claims in CWT format. Maybe they are part of EAT. Maybe =
they are separate. Maybe they use the YANG =
definition.&nbsp;</div><div><br class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"=
 class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; =
caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Please understand that in no way do I =
claim that YANG is perfect. &nbsp;And YANG models can take years to =
complete.&nbsp;&nbsp; But on the plus side for YANG, I am sure it is =
possible to construct YANG models so that new hardware types can be =
inserted.&nbsp; If you want a preview of the types of structure which =
might be used for this type of extensibility, check out at how =
draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push augments new case types into a the YANG =
model described within =
draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications.</div></div></blockquote><div>=
<br class=3D""></div><div>YANG not perfect?? Huh? What? =
&nbsp;:-)</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I wish some YANG experts =
would chime in more here. I=E2=80=99m trying to learn on the fly and =
really should be updating the EAT draft instead.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>LL</div><div><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Eric<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"border-style: none none none =
solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-color: blue; padding: 0in =
0in 0in 4pt;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">From:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Laurence Lundblade, June =
10, 2019 2:57 PM<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Hi Eric,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">So I think we have some agreement on general principles for =
how to structure the documents this work group produces so we can have =
both flexibility in the definition of new claims<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><i =
class=3D"">and</i>&nbsp;well-defined concise sets claims for particular =
use cases.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">In particular I appreciate the confirmation of this from Mike =
Jones. Hopefully lack of objection implies a lot of agreement.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Eric, I think you are now digging into the next level of =
detail on how to deal with TPM-based implementations and claims =
specified in YANG and how that will interoperate with CWT/COSE and =
JWT/JOSE based tokens.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">I don=E2=80=99t really understand YANG and how to fully read =
draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module yet. Working on it (but I should =
be working on the new EAT draft=E2=80=A6)<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module REQUIRES a TPM to =
implement it. That implies to me that neither CWT/COSE and JWT/JOSE =
signed container formats can be used because I don=E2=80=99t think =
TPM=E2=80=99s can produce either format. Pretty sure we agree that EAT =
will always be CWT/COSE or JWT/JOSE.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">(It is also odd to me that an IETF =
standard would require particular HW. It should just be about bits on =
the wire. EAT will have some means to indicate the security of the HW =
and SW that produced a given token, but will not require any particular =
security from the HW or SW)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">But let=E2=80=99s assume that a relying party (I think you =
call this the Network Element) can unpack and verify signature that in =
the format of CWT and JWT and the TPM-style sig that I think is implied =
by draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module. The result will be a set of =
claims in some syntax. It will be CBOR or JSON in the case of CWT or =
JWT.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">What will it be for draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module??? =
YANG-described stuff an be lots of different syntaxes by my =
understanding. How many of them will a relying party be expected to =
support so there is interop?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">I=E2=80=99m going to stop here for the answer to that =
question.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">LL<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2019 11:24:42 -0400
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Greetings!

A month later, my assessment of the status of this last call is as follows:

The EAT draft is adopted with identified issues that need to be resolved
through the WG consensus process.  I am listing the identified issues in
this message.  If any issues have been left out, please do correct me and
we'll make sure the WG runs through the full list.  Additional decision
points can be added at any time for WG discussion, as with any WG adopted
draft.  If details within any of the identified issues require
clarification, we can figure that out in an issue tracking format and
ensure we have consensus on each identified item.


   1. Clearly define EAT (token, structured format, protocol message, etc.)
   2. CWT or CWT-like?  My take from the thread is that we move to CWT and
   we use the CWT or JWT registry as appropriate with updated instructions.
   Instructions should account for unused or barely used claims.
   3. Process for review of claims entered into CWT/JWT registry
   4. A basic set of attestation related claims and what makes a good claim
   for use within EAT. Define claims profile for network equipment. Determine
   which other profiles (if any) should be considered.
   5. Limits to what can be populated in an EAT claim

Related work in other drafts may influence this draft in time as well, such
as an information model.  Additional questions came up that I trust will be
addressed in the draft update, such as the ability to create a custom claim
to carry the entire TPM attestation as a payload and relationships to
FIDO/Webauthn.  Examples may be helpful.  Ensuring clean interoperation
with other drafts will be important as well.

If the authors could post a new version with the name formatted as a WG
draft, that can serve as a next step.  If they have felt there is agreement
on some of the items discussed, this new version can include their proposed
text to address those points for WG review.  If the draft is in github,
then a pull request may be used to suggest corrections, but proposed text
should also go to the list.

draft-ietf-rats-eat-00.txt

Thank you,
Kathleen

On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 11:06 AM Kathleen Moriarty <
kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

> Greetings!
>
> At IETF 104, a poll was taken to determine interest in the RATS WG
> adopting:
>
> The Entity Attestation Token (EAT)
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mandyam-rats-eat/
>
> This begins a 2 week period to determine interest in adopting this draft
> as a working group item.  The poll will close on May 24th EOD PDT.
>
> Minutes from IETF 104:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/minutes-104-rats/
> --
>
> Best regards,
> Kathleen
>


-- 

Best regards,
Kathleen

--000000000000566e0b058b0de615
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Greetings!<br><div><br></div><div>A month later, my assess=
ment of the status of this last call is as follows:</div><div><br></div><di=
v>The EAT draft is adopted with identified issues that need to be resolved =
through the WG consensus process.=C2=A0 I am listing the identified issues =
in this message.=C2=A0 If any issues have been left out, please do correct =
me and we&#39;ll make sure the WG runs through the full list.=C2=A0 Additio=
nal decision points can be added at any time for WG discussion, as with any=
 WG adopted draft.=C2=A0 If details within any of the identified issues req=
uire clarification, we can figure that out in an issue tracking format and =
ensure we have consensus on each identified item.</div><div><br></div><div>=
<ol><li>Clearly define EAT (token, structured format, protocol message, etc=
.)</li><li>CWT or CWT-like?=C2=A0 My take from the thread is that we move t=
o CWT and we use the CWT or JWT registry as appropriate with updated instru=
ctions.=C2=A0 Instructions should account for unused or barely used claims.=
</li><li>Process for review of claims entered into CWT/JWT registry</li><li=
>A basic set of attestation related claims and what makes a good claim for =
use within EAT. Define claims profile for network equipment. Determine whic=
h other profiles (if any) should be considered.</li><li>Limits to what can =
be populated in an EAT claim</li></ol><div>Related work in other drafts may=
 influence this draft in time as well, such as an information model.=C2=A0 =
Additional questions came up that I trust will be addressed in the draft up=
date, such as the ability to create a custom claim to carry the entire TPM =
attestation as a payload and relationships to FIDO/Webauthn.=C2=A0 Examples=
 may be helpful.=C2=A0 Ensuring clean interoperation with other drafts will=
 be important as well.</div></div><div><br></div><div>If the authors could =
post a new version with the name formatted as a WG draft, that can serve as=
 a next step.=C2=A0 If they have felt there is agreement on some of the ite=
ms discussed, this new version can include their proposed text to address t=
hose points for WG review.=C2=A0 If the draft is in github, then a pull req=
uest may be used to suggest corrections, but proposed text should also go t=
o the list.</div><div><br></div><div>draft-ietf-rats-eat-00.txt</div><div><=
br></div><div>Thank you,</div><div>Kathleen</div></div><br><div class=3D"gm=
ail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 11=
:06 AM Kathleen Moriarty &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail=
.com">kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px sol=
id rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr">Greetings!<div><br></div><div>At IETF 104, a poll was taken t=
o determine interest in the RATS WG adopting:=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><di=
v>The Entity Attestation Token (EAT)<br></div><div><a href=3D"https://datat=
racker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mandyam-rats-eat/" target=3D"_blank">https://data=
tracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mandyam-rats-eat/</a>=C2=A0<br></div><div><br></=
div><div>This begins a 2 week period to determine interest in adopting this=
 draft as a working group item.=C2=A0 The poll will close on May 24th EOD P=
DT.</div><div><br></div><div>Minutes from IETF 104:</div><div><a href=3D"ht=
tps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/minutes-104-rats/" target=3D"_blank">https:/=
/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/minutes-104-rats/</a><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D=
"ltr" class=3D"gmail-m_-5157143192299635027gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><br><div>Best regards,</div><div>Kathleen</div></div></div></div></div></=
div>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"=
 class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div>Best regards,</div><di=
v>Kathleen</div></div></div>

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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
CC: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones=40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] Vetting claim definitions
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Vetting claim definitions
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Cc: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones=40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Vetting claim definitions
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This exchange was really helpful for me.

So an EAT / CWT / JWT remain as a signed self-secured message that can =
be moved in lots of different ways. That can include the RPC mechanisms =
defined using YANG that seem to be the main means of moving management =
data in/out of routers. I hope we get to writing a little bit of YANG to =
define that. As with CWT and JWT the means of moving the messages around =
include HTTP headers, extension points in other protocols and so on. =
Seems like draft-birkholz-reference-ra-interaction-model holds for most =
of them.

Additionally, we always consider YANG-defined objects when we defined =
EAT / CWT / JWT claims.

I=E2=80=99m going back to working on the EAT draft now.

LL


> On Jun 11, 2019, at 2:03 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) <evoit@cisco.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> Hi Laurence,
> =20
> From: Laurence Lundblade, June 11, 2019 11:21 AM
>=20
> Hi Eric,
> =20
> What I=E2=80=99m trying to figure out here is where there can be real =
practical interoperability with extant YANG-defined objects and how we =
go about it as I assume this is your current objection to adoption.
> =20
> <eric> I certainly intended no argument against adoption.  I did vote =
in favor of adoption.  It was just that I want to see this topic =
addressed as part of the draft's progression.  I think the vote summary =
from Kathleen covers my desire just fine.
>=20
> On Jun 10, 2019, at 2:23 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) <evoit@cisco.com =
<mailto:evoit@cisco.com>> wrote:
> =20
> Hi Laurence,
> =20
> It is true that the YANG of draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module is =
currently TPM2 specific.  But over the past month we have been having =
discussions on how to augment into this model case statements and a tree =
structure which allows exposure of information from alternative hardware =
types such as the TPM1.2. =20
> =20
> Per your note below, I am guessing that =
draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module could provide a query/response =
interface to access EAT information.  The Network Element's YANG model =
theoretically could allow access based on whatever choice of protocols =
the Network Element supports (e.g., NETCONF/XML. RESTCONF/JSON, =
CoMI/CBOR).  But the choice and protocols of used to access EAT objects =
over a YANG interface is something each platform would need to define.   =
The baseline choice for Interoperability here is tbd.
> =20
> You mentioned a YANG interface. Seems like a point where there might =
be interoperability. Is this an interface on the router that is used to =
collect the claims data before signing? Or is it an interface on the =
back end / server / relying party that is involved in validating the =
data? Or maybe it is the rpc interaction defined in =
draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module? I=E2=80=99m not sure what the =
intended endpoints of that RPC are. Router and Relying Party?=20
> =20
> <eric>  It is the RPC mechanism.  The RPC mechanisms allow a relying =
party to fetch internal datastore objects within the Router.  =20
> =20
> One vendor specific example of a domain relevant YANG model is here:
> =
https://github.com/YangModels/yang/blob/master/vendor/cisco/xe/16101/Cisco=
-IOS-XE-boot-integrity-oper.yang =
<https://github.com/YangModels/yang/blob/master/vendor/cisco/xe/16101/Cisc=
o-IOS-XE-boot-integrity-oper.yang>
> This model allows information from within a cryptoprocessor to be =
inspected by both the router and the relying party *after* it has been =
signed by the one of the router's cryptoprocessors.
> =20
> Note: this model is just one of almost 400 YANG models supported on =
that type of device:
> https://github.com/YangModels/yang/tree/master/vendor/cisco/xe/16101 =
<https://github.com/YangModels/yang/tree/master/vendor/cisco/xe/16101>
> Looking at this second link, you can get an idea of the level of =
investment placed into YANG by Router vendors attempting to unify the =
exposure of information.
> =20
> =20
> Now that we are generally agreeing that an EAT is a CWT or JWT, the =
interaction model between device and relying party is inherited from =
them. Mostly we=E2=80=99re defining the format of a signed message and =
leaving the transport of the message open-ended so it can be embedded in =
HTTP headers, protocol extensions and such. If YANG is used to define =
interaction on routers, then some YANG RPC could be used (if that is =
what YANG RPC is) to define transport of CWTs (if CWTs are used on =
routers). There=E2=80=99s also =
draft-birkholz-reference-ra-interaction-model.
> =20
> <eric> I have been seeing EAT as a useful way to define what comes out =
of cryptoprocessor hardware which might be located on a router.  For =
relying parties outside the router, the EAT raw payload might be fetched =
through RPC.  Or perhaps some or all of the corresponding YANG objects =
might be fetched.  Additionally, specific objects could be referenced so =
that logic on the router might be applied based on the value of that =
object.   A good example we have tested here is when we send a =
notification message to a relying party only when a specific PCR has =
changed.  This level of granularity means the relying party doesn't have =
to continuously poll for the router to see if the PCR has changed.=20
> =20
> =20
> Whether it is even meaningful/relevant to support such YANG-EAT =
interoperability is something I don't know yet.  For me to consider EAT =
for implementation would mean EAT has been adopted within =
routers/switches.   As this is possible, I feel there is little for the =
WG to lose if we try to select/define some common objects which span our =
different domains.
> =20
> =20
> Here=E2=80=99s comments on a pass through =
draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module
> =20
> grouping nonce {... Seems essentially compatible with nonce / cti / =
jai in CWT / JWT
> grouping pcr-selection {...   TPM-specific so we probably go with the =
YANG definition
> grouping pcr-selector {...   TPM-specific so we probably go with the =
YANG definition
> grouping signature-scheme {=E2=80=A6 EAT will use COSE for this
> grouping attestation-key-identifier {=E2=80=A6 EAT will use COSE for =
this
> grouping tpm-name {=E2=80=A6 TPM-specific so we probably go with the =
YANG definition
> grouping compute-node {=E2=80=A6 I think this one needs work to figure =
out what it is and if EAT=E2=80=99s UEID is similar
> grouping node-uptime {=E2=80=A6 Seems simple to make exactly the same =
for EAT
> grouping log-identifier {=E2=80=A6 and grouping boot-event-log {=E2=80=A6=
 and other log stuff=E2=80=A6 Maybe TPM specific; maybe needs work to =
understand
> grouping ima-event {=E2=80=A6 and related. We do want some IMA claims =
in CWT format. Maybe they are part of EAT. Maybe they are separate. =
Maybe they use the YANG definition.=20
> =20
> <eric> This is a nice start on the type of analysis I am hoping to =
see.   I think as we work this through, we can save mapping cycles for =
future developers. =20
> =20
> Please understand that in no way do I claim that YANG is perfect.  And =
YANG models can take years to complete.   But on the plus side for YANG, =
I am sure it is possible to construct YANG models so that new hardware =
types can be inserted.  If you want a preview of the types of structure =
which might be used for this type of extensibility, check out at how =
draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push augments new case types into a the YANG =
model described within draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications.
> =20
> YANG not perfect?? Huh? What?  :-)
> =20
> I wish some YANG experts would chime in more here. I=E2=80=99m trying =
to learn on the fly and really should be updating the EAT draft instead.
> =20
> <eric>  I encourage other YANG viewers out there to chime in as well.
> =20
> Eric
> =20
> LL
> =20
>=20
>=20
> =20
> Eric
> =20
> From: Laurence Lundblade, June 10, 2019 2:57 PM
>=20
>=20
> Hi Eric,
> =20
> So I think we have some agreement on general principles for how to =
structure the documents this work group produces so we can have both =
flexibility in the definition of new claims and well-defined concise =
sets claims for particular use cases.=20
> =20
> In particular I appreciate the confirmation of this from Mike Jones. =
Hopefully lack of objection implies a lot of agreement.=20
> =20
> =20
> Eric, I think you are now digging into the next level of detail on how =
to deal with TPM-based implementations and claims specified in YANG and =
how that will interoperate with CWT/COSE and JWT/JOSE based tokens.
> =20
> I don=E2=80=99t really understand YANG and how to fully read =
draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module yet. Working on it (but I should =
be working on the new EAT draft=E2=80=A6)
> =20
> draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module REQUIRES a TPM to implement it. =
That implies to me that neither CWT/COSE and JWT/JOSE signed container =
formats can be used because I don=E2=80=99t think TPM=E2=80=99s can =
produce either format. Pretty sure we agree that EAT will always be =
CWT/COSE or JWT/JOSE.=20
> =20
> (It is also odd to me that an IETF standard would require particular =
HW. It should just be about bits on the wire. EAT will have some means =
to indicate the security of the HW and SW that produced a given token, =
but will not require any particular security from the HW or SW)
> =20
> But let=E2=80=99s assume that a relying party (I think you call this =
the Network Element) can unpack and verify signature that in the format =
of CWT and JWT and the TPM-style sig that I think is implied by =
draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module. The result will be a set of =
claims in some syntax. It will be CBOR or JSON in the case of CWT or =
JWT.=20
> =20
> What will it be for draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module??? =
YANG-described stuff an be lots of different syntaxes by my =
understanding. How many of them will a relying party be expected to =
support so there is interop?
> =20
> I=E2=80=99m going to stop here for the answer to that question.
> =20
> LL


--Apple-Mail=_3150D9F5-A161-4346-9349-250BDD0531E4
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">This =
exchange was really helpful for me.<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">So an EAT / CWT / JWT remain as a =
signed self-secured message that can be moved in lots of different ways. =
That can include the RPC mechanisms defined using YANG that seem to be =
the main means of moving management data in/out of routers. I hope we =
get to writing a little bit of YANG to define that. As with CWT and JWT =
the means of moving the messages around include HTTP headers, extension =
points in other protocols and so on. Seems =
like&nbsp;draft-birkholz-reference-ra-interaction-model holds for most =
of them.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Additionally, we always consider YANG-defined objects when we =
defined EAT / CWT / JWT claims.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I=E2=80=99m going back to working on =
the EAT draft now.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div class=3D""><div><br=
 class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jun =
11, 2019, at 2:03 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:evoit@cisco.com" class=3D"">evoit@cisco.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(84, 130, 53);" class=3D"">Hi Laurence,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></b></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">From:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Laurence Lundblade, June =
11, 2019 11:21 AM<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Hi =
Eric,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">What I=E2=80=99m trying to figure out =
here is where there can be real practical interoperability with extant =
YANG-defined objects and how we go about it as I assume this is your =
current objection to adoption.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(84, 130, 53);" class=3D"">&lt;eric&gt; I certainly =
intended no argument against adoption.&nbsp; I did vote in favor of =
adoption.&nbsp; It was just that I want to see this topic addressed as =
part of the draft's progression.&nbsp; I think the vote summary from =
Kathleen covers my desire just fine.</span><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(84, 130, 53);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Jun =
10, 2019, at 2:23 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:evoit@cisco.com" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">evoit@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Hi Laurence,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">It is true that the YANG of =
draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module is currently TPM2 specific.&nbsp; =
But over the past month we have been having discussions on how to =
augment into this model case statements and a tree structure which =
allows exposure of information from alternative hardware types such as =
the TPM1.2.&nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Per your note below, I am guessing that =
draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module could provide a query/response =
interface to access EAT information.&nbsp; The Network Element's YANG =
model theoretically could allow access based on whatever choice of =
protocols the Network Element supports (e.g., NETCONF/XML. =
RESTCONF/JSON, CoMI/CBOR). &nbsp;But the choice and protocols of used to =
access EAT objects over a YANG interface is something each platform =
would need to define. &nbsp;&nbsp;The baseline choice for =
Interoperability here is tbd.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">You mentioned a YANG interface. Seems like a point where =
there might be interoperability. Is this an interface on the router that =
is used to collect the claims data before signing? Or is it an interface =
on the back end / server / relying party that is involved in validating =
the data? Or maybe it is the rpc interaction defined =
in&nbsp;draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module? I=E2=80=99m not sure what =
the intended endpoints of that RPC are. Router and Relying =
Party?&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(84, 130, 53);" =
class=3D"">&lt;eric&gt;&nbsp; It is the RPC mechanism.&nbsp; The RPC =
mechanisms allow a relying party to fetch internal datastore objects =
within the Router.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(84, 130, 53);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(84, 130, 53);" class=3D"">One =
vendor specific example of a domain relevant YANG model is here:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://github.com/YangModels/yang/blob/master/vendor/cisco/xe/161=
01/Cisco-IOS-XE-boot-integrity-oper.yang" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://github.com/YangModels/yang/blob/master/vendor/cisco/xe/=
16101/Cisco-IOS-XE-boot-integrity-oper.yang</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(84, 130, 53);" class=3D"">This model allows =
information from within a cryptoprocessor to be inspected by both the =
router and the relying party *after* it has been signed by the one of =
the router's cryptoprocessors.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(84, 130, =
53);" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(84, 130, =
53);" class=3D"">Note: this model is just one of almost 400 YANG models =
supported on that type of device:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://github.com/YangModels/yang/tree/master/vendor/cisco/xe/161=
01" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://github.com/YangModels/yang/tree/master/vendor/cisco/xe/=
16101</a><span style=3D"color: rgb(84, 130, 53);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(84, 130, 53);" class=3D"">Looking at this second =
link, you can get an idea of the level of investment placed into YANG by =
Router vendors attempting to unify the exposure of information.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Now that we are generally agreeing that =
an EAT is a CWT or JWT, the interaction model between device and relying =
party is inherited from them. Mostly we=E2=80=99re defining the format =
of a signed message and leaving the transport of the message open-ended =
so it can be embedded in HTTP headers, protocol extensions and such. If =
YANG is used to define interaction on routers, then some YANG RPC could =
be used (if that is what YANG RPC is) to define transport of CWTs (if =
CWTs are used on routers). There=E2=80=99s =
also&nbsp;draft-birkholz-reference-ra-interaction-model.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(84, 130, 53);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(84, 130, 53);" =
class=3D"">&lt;eric&gt; I have been seeing EAT as a useful way to define =
what comes out of cryptoprocessor hardware which might be located on a =
router.&nbsp; For relying parties outside the router, the EAT raw =
payload might be fetched through RPC.&nbsp; Or perhaps some or all of =
the corresponding YANG objects might be fetched. &nbsp;Additionally, =
specific objects could be referenced so that logic on the router might =
be applied based on the value of that object.&nbsp;&nbsp; A good example =
we have tested here is when we send a notification message to a relying =
party only when a specific PCR has changed.&nbsp; This level of =
granularity means the relying party doesn't have to continuously poll =
for the router to see if the PCR has changed.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Whether it is even meaningful/relevant =
to support such YANG-EAT interoperability is something I don't know =
yet.&nbsp; For me to consider EAT for implementation would mean EAT has =
been adopted within routers/switches. &nbsp;&nbsp;As this is possible, I =
feel there is little for the WG to lose if we try to select/define some =
common objects which span our different domains.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Here=E2=80=99s comments on a pass =
through&nbsp;draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">grouping nonce =
{...&nbsp;Seems essentially compatible with nonce / cti / jai in CWT / =
JWT<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">grouping pcr-selection {... &nbsp;&nbsp;TPM-specific so we =
probably go with the YANG definition<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div=
 class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">grouping pcr-selector {... =
&nbsp;&nbsp;TPM-specific so we probably go with the YANG definition<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">grouping signature-scheme {=E2=80=A6 EAT will use COSE for =
this<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">grouping attestation-key-identifier =
{=E2=80=A6 EAT will use COSE for this<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">grouping tpm-name {=E2=80=A6 TPM-specific so we probably go =
with the YANG definition<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">grouping compute-node {=E2=80=
=A6 I think this one needs work to figure out what it is and if EAT=E2=80=99=
s UEID is similar<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">grouping node-uptime {=E2=80=A6 Seems =
simple to make exactly the same for EAT<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">grouping log-identifier {=E2=80=A6 and grouping =
boot-event-log {=E2=80=A6 and other log stuff=E2=80=A6 Maybe TPM =
specific; maybe needs work to understand<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">grouping ima-event {=E2=80=A6 and related. We do want some =
IMA claims in CWT format. Maybe they are part of EAT. Maybe they are =
separate. Maybe they use the YANG definition.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(84, 130, 53);" =
class=3D"">&lt;eric&gt; This is a nice start on the type of analysis I =
am hoping to see.&nbsp; &nbsp;I think as we work this through, we can =
save mapping cycles for future developers.&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: =
5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Please understand that in no way do I =
claim that YANG is perfect. &nbsp;And YANG models can take years to =
complete.&nbsp;&nbsp; But on the plus side for YANG, I am sure it is =
possible to construct YANG models so that new hardware types can be =
inserted.&nbsp; If you want a preview of the types of structure which =
might be used for this type of extensibility, check out at how =
draft-ietf-netconf-yang-push augments new case types into a the YANG =
model described within draft-ietf-netconf-subscribed-notifications.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">YANG not perfect?? Huh? What? &nbsp;:-)<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I wish some YANG experts would chime in =
more here. I=E2=80=99m trying to learn on the fly and really should be =
updating the EAT draft instead.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(84, 130, =
53);" class=3D"">&lt;eric&gt;&nbsp; I encourage other YANG viewers out =
there to chime in as well.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(84, 130, =
53);" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(84, 130, =
53);" class=3D"">Eric<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">LL<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Eric<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; =
border-left-color: blue; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">From:</b><span=
 class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Laurence Lundblade, June =
10, 2019 2:57 PM<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Hi Eric,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">So I think we have some agreement on =
general principles for how to structure the documents this work group =
produces so we can have both flexibility in the definition of new =
claims<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><i =
class=3D"">and</i>&nbsp;well-defined concise sets claims for particular =
use cases.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">In particular I appreciate the =
confirmation of this from Mike Jones. Hopefully lack of objection =
implies a lot of agreement.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Eric, I think you are now digging into =
the next level of detail on how to deal with TPM-based implementations =
and claims specified in YANG and how that will interoperate with =
CWT/COSE and JWT/JOSE based tokens.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I don=E2=80=99t really understand YANG =
and how to fully read draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module yet. Working =
on it (but I should be working on the new EAT draft=E2=80=A6)<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module REQUIRES a TPM to =
implement it. That implies to me that neither CWT/COSE and JWT/JOSE =
signed container formats can be used because I don=E2=80=99t think =
TPM=E2=80=99s can produce either format. Pretty sure we agree that EAT =
will always be CWT/COSE or JWT/JOSE.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">(It is also odd to me that an IETF =
standard would require particular HW. It should just be about bits on =
the wire. EAT will have some means to indicate the security of the HW =
and SW that produced a given token, but will not require any particular =
security from the HW or SW)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">But let=E2=80=99s assume that a relying =
party (I think you call this the Network Element) can unpack and verify =
signature that in the format of CWT and JWT and the TPM-style sig that I =
think is implied by draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module. The result =
will be a set of claims in some syntax. It will be CBOR or JSON in the =
case of CWT or JWT.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">What will it be for =
draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module??? YANG-described stuff an be lots =
of different syntaxes by my understanding. How many of them will a =
relying party be expected to support so there is interop?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I=E2=80=99m going to stop here for the =
answer to that question.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">LL</div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div>=
</blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></div></body></html>=

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From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
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To: rats@ietf.org, Mike Jones <Michael.Jones=40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] EAT as a JWT/CWT
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+ Mike for CWT-related comments

I=E2=80=99m planning to put tokenType in the next EAT draft. I will =
definitely not define the =E2=80=9CCert=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CCoID=E2=80=9D=
 types. That will be up to those standards.  I will define =E2=80=9CEAT=E2=
=80=9D for certain. I=E2=80=99m not sure what to do about =E2=80=9COAuth=E2=
=80=9D and/or other traditional uses of CWT/JWT. Comments?

Note that this is going inside the token so it is signed rather than =
outside as a content type or a CBOR tag.

LL


> On May 26, 2019, at 12:38 PM, Laurence Lundblade =
<lgl@island-resort.com> wrote:
>=20
> Seems like we would  want an option claim that indicates the purpose =
of the token. To write my first CDDL:
>=20
> tokenType =3D =E2=80=9CEAT" / =E2=80=9COAuth" / =E2=80=9CCert=E2=80=9D =
/ =E2=80=9CCoID"
>=20
> I suspect it will be hard to tell which it is by the make up of the =
claims and it will matter for some use cases. I=E2=80=99m not sure =
=E2=80=9COAuth=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9CCert=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CCoID=E2=80=9D=
 are right.  The writing does seem to be on the wall that we will =
eventually replace X.509 cert hierarchies with CWT/JWT hierarchies and =
I=E2=80=99m not sure if that is a =E2=80=9CCoID=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9CCert=E2=
=80=9D.


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">+ Mike for CWT-related comments</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div>I=E2=80=99m planning to put tokenType in the next EAT =
draft. I will definitely not define the =E2=80=9CCert=E2=80=9D and =
=E2=80=9CCoID=E2=80=9D types. That will be up to those standards. =
&nbsp;I will define =E2=80=9CEAT=E2=80=9D for certain. I=E2=80=99m not =
sure what to do about =E2=80=9COAuth=E2=80=9D and/or other traditional =
uses of CWT/JWT. Comments?<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Note that this is going inside the token so it is signed =
rather than outside as a content type or a CBOR tag.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">LL<br class=3D""><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On May 26, 2019, at 12:38 PM, Laurence =
Lundblade &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" =
class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">Seems like we =
would &nbsp;want an option claim that indicates the purpose of the =
token. To write my first CDDL:</div><div class=3D"" style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><br class=3D""></div><blockquote class=3D"" =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; margin: 0px 0px =
0px 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;"><div class=3D""><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13.333333015441895px; margin-top: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;">tokenType =3D =E2=80=9CEAT" =
/ =E2=80=9COAuth" / =E2=80=9CCert=E2=80=9D / =
=E2=80=9CCoID"</pre></div></blockquote><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D"" =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;">I suspect it =
will be hard to tell which it is by the make up of the claims and it =
will matter for some use cases. I=E2=80=99m not sure =E2=80=9COAuth=E2=80=9D=
, =E2=80=9CCert=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CCoID=E2=80=9D are right. &nbsp;The =
writing does seem to be on the wall that we will eventually replace =
X.509 cert hierarchies with CWT/JWT hierarchies and I=E2=80=99m not sure =
if that is a =E2=80=9CCoID=E2=80=9D or =
=E2=80=9CCert=E2=80=9D.</div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></div></body></html>=

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From nobody Fri Jun 14 11:12:15 2019
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From: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
To: rats@ietf.org
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Subject: [Rats] agenda request for next week -- use cases
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RATS Chairs:

I would like to propose two slots for the use cases for next week:
1) <5 minute update on document progress, what we need more of, and
   whether we are going in the right direction.

   Given no intent to publish, should the WG adopt this document so that
   it can say it is allocating time to WG documents first?

2) 10-15 minutes at the VERY END of the time period for discussion about
   details in the document, and how to best make this document most useful
   as we go forward.

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
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Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com> wrote:
    >> Makes sense to me to capture current artifacts. Maybe in an appendix
    >> to the use cases draft.

    > For completeness you should consider mentioning that there are two
    > quite different platform attestation concepts: - Static: FIDO, Android,
    > and current TEEP architecture - Session based: Used by some smart card
    > schemes and SKS/KeyGen2
    > (https://github.com/ietf-teep/architecture/issues/52)

I have added the following text.
I read through the link above, and I found it really interesting, but I
wasn't really sure if I could pin down some clear details about
session attestions.

Are there things that could never be in one category or another?

----

Platform attestions generally come in two categories. This document will
attempt to indicate for a particular attestion technology falls into this.

## Static attestions

A static attestion says something about the platform on which the code is
running.

## Session attestions

A session attestion says something about how the shared session key was
created.

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Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com> wrote:
    > Anders refers to session-based attestation in the TEEP archive which
    > points to several sources including a TCG source. This may be referring
    > to a public specification known as DICE - Device Identifier Composition
    > Engine.
    > https://trustedcomputinggroup.org/wp-content/uploads/Hardware-Requirements-for-Device-Identifier-Composition-Engine-r78_For-Publication.pdf

    > TCG terminology for TEEP's "Static" attestation is "Explicit
    > Attestation" and TEEP's term "Session Based" attestation is "Implicit
    > Attestation" by TCG.

I have included these translations into the document.

    > The EAT draft defines an attestation approach that seems close to (i)
    > if you ignore the nonce that is returned as a static claim / assertion
    > and if you rule out of scope the definition of how the signing key is
    > created / persisted.

    > The tokbind draft seems closely resemble (ii).

I want to be sure you mean: draft-mandyam-tokbind-attest-07 ?

    > The TUDA draft seems to
    > resemble (i). (Henk can correct me).

    > The yang draft seems to resemble
    > (ii). (Henk can correct me).

I'm trying to figure out what to do this statement.

--
]               Never tell me the odds!                 | ipv6 mesh networks [
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From: Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] More use cases for draft-richardson-rats-usecases-00
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On 2019-06-14 20:15, Michael Richardson wrote:
> 
> Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com> wrote:
>      >> Makes sense to me to capture current artifacts. Maybe in an appendix
>      >> to the use cases draft.
> 
>      > For completeness you should consider mentioning that there are two
>      > quite different platform attestation concepts: - Static: FIDO, Android,
>      > and current TEEP architecture - Session based: Used by some smart card
>      > schemes and SKS/KeyGen2
>      > (https://github.com/ietf-teep/architecture/issues/52)
> 
> I have added the following text.
> I read through the link above, and I found it really interesting, but I
> wasn't really sure if I could pin down some clear details about
> session attestions.

Hi Michael,

A session based attestation is the combination of a static attestation
and the creation of a shared session key.  That is, possible subsequent
operations using the shared session key "inherit" the initial attestation.
Such operations use MAC signatures and symmetric encryption (using keys
derived from the session key) in order to form a protected API.
Ideally a session based attestation scheme also provides "atomic"
operation, terminated by a "commit" call.

> 
> Are there things that could never be in one category or another?

To me they appear pretty distinct, including the code.

Regards,
Anders

> 
> ----
> 
> Platform attestions generally come in two categories. This document will
> attempt to indicate for a particular attestion technology falls into this.
> 
> ## Static attestions
> 
> A static attestion says something about the platform on which the code is
> running.
> 
> ## Session attestions
> 
> A session attestion says something about how the shared session key was
> created.

See text above.

> 
> --
> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
>   -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-
> 
> 
> 


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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
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From nobody Tue Jun 18 19:30:33 2019
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Thomas Fossati <Thomas.Fossati@arm.com> wrote:
    > =EF=BB=BFOn 27/03/2019, 18:25, "RATS on behalf of Michael Richardson"
    > <rats-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:
    >> (Still looking for some pointers to *attestion* parts of the Android
    >> KeyStore.)

    > Maybe you want to take a look at [1]

    > Cheers, t

    > [1] https://arxiv.org/pdf/1904.05572.pdf

Thank you. It was a really interesting read.
What I learnt is that Android mostly attests to the location of a device
signing key.  I think that this is an implementation of the device-type
attestation that FIDO cares about.

The paper and the referenced info at:
  https://developer.android.com/training/articles/security-key-attestation

does not give me additional use case, but I have other reading that I have
not yet finished.

=2D-
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-




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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain


Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com> wrote:
    > Here you have another link:
    > https://developer.android.com/training/articles/security-key-attestation

    > As an application developer I find this scheme and the associated
    > "AndroidKeyStore" quite impractical.  The recent addition of
    > "StrongBox" makes it worse.

Interesting. What is it that you find that you can not do?

    > With a two-level TEE/SE session-key based scheme you only need to
    > attest the session permitting you to perform any number of secure
    > operations and close the session with a "commit" which in turn responds
    > with a (session signed) message to the SP that everything went right.

Or is this what you wish you had?


--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-




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From: Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Android attestations: Re: draft-richardson-rats-usecases-00 comments
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On 2019-06-19 04:31, Michael Richardson wrote:
> 
> Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com> wrote:
>      > Here you have another link:
>      > https://developer.android.com/training/articles/security-key-attestation
> 
>      > As an application developer I find this scheme and the associated
>      > "AndroidKeyStore" quite impractical.  The recent addition of
>      > "StrongBox" makes it worse.
> 
> Interesting. What is it that you find that you can not do?

A mechanism that only attests keys cannot (securely) be used for provisioning anything but keys.

> 
>      > With a two-level TEE/SE session-key based scheme you only need to
>      > attest the session permitting you to perform any number of secure
>      > operations and close the session with a "commit" which in turn responds
>      > with a (session signed) message to the SP that everything went right.
> 
> Or is this what you wish you had?

In the absence of installable TA support, I have implemented this in Android as a SW emulator [1]. It is a part of the Saturn [3] payment authorization system I'm working on.

As I have tried to describe [2], this concept also relieves you from (IMO) unwanted/unnecessary dependencies on provisioning protocol formats.

Anders
1] https://github.com/cyberphone/webpkisuite-4-android/blob/master/app/src/main/java/org/webpki/mobile/android/sks/AndroidSKSImplementation.java
2] https://github.com/ietf-teep/architecture/issues/52
3] https://cyberphone.github.io/doc/two-visions-4-mobile-payments.pdf

> 
> 
> --
> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
>   -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
> 


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--_000_C02846B1344F344EB4FAA6FA7AF481F13E7A743Cdggemm511mbxchi_
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Hi authors,
please find below an proposed addition to the module from Henk and me, also=
 a set of summarized comments for this draft to review:

module: ietf-basic-remote-attestation
  +--ro rats-support-structures
     +--ro supported-algos*            uint16
     +--ro tpms* [tpm_name]      //is version info needed here?
     |  +--ro tpm_name              string
     |  +--ro tpm-physical-index?   int32 {ietfhw:entity-mib}?
     +--ro compute-nodes* [node-name]
     |  +--ro node-name              string
     |  +--ro node-physical-index?   int32 {ietfhw:entity-mib}?
     +--ro endorsement-certificates       //Is this the TCG specified EK ce=
rtificate, or AK used here for RA, or a unified one? Is it better to move t=
his under the respective tpm_name in tpms above, and delete this structure?
        +--ro certificate* [tpm_name]
           +--ro tpm_name                   string
           +--ro tpm-physical-index?        int32 {ietfhw:entity-mib}?
           +--ro endorsement-certificate    binary

  rpcs:
    +---x tpm12-challenge-response-attestation
    |  +---w input
    |  |  +---w tpm1-attestation-challenge
    |  |     +---w pcr-indices*            uint8
    |  |     +---w nonce-value             binary
    |  |     +---w TPM_SIG_SCHEME-value    uint8
    |  |     +---w (key-identifier)?
    |  |     |  +--:(public-key)
    |  |     |  |  +---w pub-key-id?       binary
    |  |     |  +--:(TSS_UUID)
    |  |     |     +---w TSS_UUID-value
    |  |     |        +---w ulTimeLow?       uint32
    |  |     |        +---w usTimeMid?       uint16
    |  |     |        +---w usTimeHigh?      uint16
    |  |     |        +---w bClockSeqHigh?   uint8
    |  |     |        +---w bClockSeqLow?    uint8
    |  |     |        +---w rgbNode*         uint8
    |  |     +---w add-version?            boolean
    |  |     +---w tpm_name?               string
    |  |     +---w tpm-physical-index?     int32 {ietfhw:entity-mib}?
    |  +--ro output
    |     +--ro tpm12-attestation-response* [tpm_name]
    |        +--ro tpm_name                     string
    |        +--ro tpm-physical-index?          int32 {ietfhw:entity-mib}?
    |        +--ro up-time?                     uint32
    |        +--ro node-name?                   string
    |        +--ro node-physical-index?         int32 {ietfhw:entity-mib}?
    |        +--ro (tpm12-quote)
    |           +--:(tpm12-quote)
    |           |  +--ro version* []
    |           |  |  +--ro major?      uint8
    |           |  |  +--ro minor?      uint8
    |           |  |  +--ro revMajor?   uint8
    |           |  |  +--ro revMinor?   uint8
    |           |  +--ro fixed?                 binary
    |           |  +--ro digest-value?          binary
    |           |  +--ro external-data?         binary
    |           |  +--ro TPM_PCR_COMPOSITE* []
    |           |  |  +--ro pcr-indices*       uint8
    |           |  |  +--ro value-size?        uint32
    |           |  |  +--ro tpm12-pcr-value*   binary
    |           |  +--ro signature-size?        uint32
    |           |  +--ro signature?             binary
    |           +--:(tpm12-quote2)
    |              +--ro tag?                   uint8
    |              +--ro fixed?                 binary
    |              +--ro external-data?         binary
    |              +--ro pcr-indices*           uint8
    |              +--ro locality-at-release?   uint8
    |              +--ro digest-at-release?     binary
    |              +--ro signature-size?        uint32
    |              +--ro signature?             binary
    +---x tpm2-challenge-response-attestation
    |  +---w input
    |  |  +---w tpm2-attestation-challenge    //should we consider supporti=
ng multiple tpms in one challenge-response interaction? And the output belo=
w has already multiple tpms~~
    |  |  |  +---w pcr-list* []    //this is an array of array of PCRs, why=
 do you design in this way?
    |  |  |  |  +---w pcr
    |  |  |  |     +---w pcr-indices*                  uint8
    |  |  |  |     +---w (algo-registry-type)
    |  |  |  |        +--:(tcg)
    |  |  |  |        |  +---w tcg-hash-algo-id?       uint16
    |  |  |  |        +--:(ietf)
    |  |  |  |           +---w ietf-ni-hash-algo-id?   uint8
    |  |  |  +---w nonce-value                   binary
    |  |  |  +---w (signature-identifier-type)
    |  |  |  |  +--:(TPM_ALG_ID)
    |  |  |  |  |  +---w TPM_ALG_ID-value?       uint16
    |  |  |  |  +--:(COSE_Algorithm)
    |  |  |  |     +---w COSE_Algorithm-value?   int32
    |  |  |  +---w (key-identifier)?
    |  |  |     +--:(public-key)
    |  |  |     |  +---w pub-key-id?             binary
    |  |  |     +--:(uuid)
    |  |  |        +---w uuid-value?             binary
    |  |  +---w tpm_name?                     string
    |  |  +---w tpm-physical-index?           int32 {ietfhw:entity-mib}?
    |  +--ro output
    |     +--ro tpm2-attestation-response* [tpm_name]
    |        +--ro tpm_name               string
    |        +--ro tpm-physical-index?    int32 {ietfhw:entity-mib}?
    |        +--ro up-time?               uint32
    |        +--ro node-name?             string
    |        +--ro node-physical-index?   int32 {ietfhw:entity-mib}?
    |        +--ro tpms-attest
    |        |  +--ro pcrdigest?                   binary
    |        |  +--ro tpms-attest-result?          binary
    |        |  +--ro tpms-attest-result-length?   uint32
    |        +--ro tpmt-signature?        binary    //is signature-length m=
issed here?
    +---x basic-trust-establishment          //So, this rpc is used once be=
fore the attestation process for trust establishment and certificate & key-=
identifier exchange? If so, it is still tpm2.0 specific, I assume we need o=
ne for tpm1.2, too.
    |  +---w input
    |  |  +---w nonce-value                   binary
    |  |  +---w (signature-identifier-type)
    |  |  |  +--:(TPM_ALG_ID)
    |  |  |  |  +---w TPM_ALG_ID-value?       uint16
    |  |  |  +--:(COSE_Algorithm)
    |  |  |     +---w COSE_Algorithm-value?   int32
    |  |  +---w tpm_name?                     string
    |  |  +---w tpm-physical-index?           int32 {ietfhw:entity-mib}?
    |  |  +---w certificate-name?             string          //how does th=
e verifier know the existing certificate names in advance? The "rats-suppor=
t-structures" above only provides the EK certificate, not AK.
    |  +--ro output
    |     +--ro attestation-certificates* [tpm_name]    // challenge messag=
e has only one tpm_name, why are there multiple tpm's response here?
    |        +--ro tpm_name                   string
    |        +--ro tpm-physical-index?        int32 {ietfhw:entity-mib}?
    |        +--ro up-time?                   uint32
    |        +--ro node-name?                 string
    |        +--ro node-physical-index?       int32 {ietfhw:entity-mib}?
    |        +--ro certificate-name?          string
    |        +--ro attestation-certificate?   ietfct:end-entity-cert-cms   =
  //Same problem, what and where is AK certificate?
    |        +--ro (key-identifier)?           //should here consider the T=
PM 1.2 TSS_UUID option? If we can use this RPC for TPM2.0 and TPM1.2 both, =
that should be added here. If not, it goes in an corresponding TPM1.2 RPC, =
analogously.
    |           +--:(public-key)
    |           |  +--ro pub-key-id?          binary
    |           +--:(uuid)
    |              +--ro uuid-value?          binary
    +---x log-retrieval
       +---w input
       |  +---w log-selector* [node-name]
       |  |  +---w node-name                 string
       |  |  +---w node-physical-index?      int32 {ietfhw:entity-mib}?
       |  |  +---w (index-type)?
       |  |     +--:(last-entry)
       |  |     |  +---w last-entry-value?   binary
       |  |     +--:(index)
       |  |     |  +---w index-number?       uint64
       |  |     +--:(timestamp)
       |  |        +---w timestamp?          yang:date-and-time
       |  +---w log-type              identityref
       |  +---w pcr-list* []      //this is an array of array of PCRs, why =
do you design in this way?
       |  |  +---w pcr
       |  |     +---w pcr-indices*                  uint8
       |  |     +---w (algo-registry-type)
       |  |        +--:(tcg)
       |  |        |  +---w tcg-hash-algo-id?       uint16
       |  |        +--:(ietf)
       |  |           +---w ietf-ni-hash-algo-id?   uint8
       |  +---w log-entry-quantity?   uint16
       +--ro output
          +--ro system-event-logs
             +--ro node-data* [node-name]
                +--ro node-name              string
                +--ro node-physical-index?   int32 {ietfhw:entity-mib}?
                +--ro up-time?               uint32
                +--ro tpm-updated* [tpm_name]         //so, does it mean th=
at there are possibly multiple tpms in one node? If so, how to use the PCR =
values of them together to verify the log integrity?
                |  +--ro tpm_name              string
                |  +--ro tpm-physical-index?   int32 {ietfhw:entity-mib}?
                +--ro log-result
                   +--ro (log-type)
                      +--:(bios)
                      |  +--ro bios-event-logs
                      |     +--ro bios-event-entry* [event-number]
                      |        +--ro event-number    uint32
                      |        +--ro event-type?     uint32
                      |        +--ro pcr-index?      uint16         //shoul=
d this be the pcr-value?
                      |        +--ro digest-list* []
                      |        |  +--ro (algo-registry-type)
                      |        |  |  +--:(tcg)
                      |        |  |  |  +--ro tcg-hash-algo-id?       uint1=
6
                      |        |  |  +--:(ietf)
                      |        |  |     +--ro ietf-ni-hash-algo-id?   uint8
                      |        |  +--ro digest*                       binar=
y
                      |        +--ro event-size?     uint32
                      |        +--ro event-data*     uint8
                      +--:(ima)
                         +--ro ima-event-logs
                            +--ro ima-event-entry* [event-number]
                               +--ro event-number               uint64
                               +--ro ima-template?              string
                               +--ro filename-hint?             string
                               +--ro filedata-hash?             binary
                               +--ro template-hash-algorithm?   string
                               +--ro template-hash?             binary
                               +--ro pcr-index?                 uint16    /=
/should this be the pcr-value?
                               +--ro signature?                 binary


Thanks a lot!

B.R.
Frank


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fy-trim:punctuation">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi authors,<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">please find below an proposed a=
ddition to the module from Henk and me, also a set of summarized comments f=
or this draft to review:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">module: ietf-basic-remote-attes=
tation<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp; &#43;--ro rats-support-s=
tructures<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;-=
-ro supported-algos*&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; uint16<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;-=
-ro tpms* [tpm_name]&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; //is version info needed=
 here?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp=
; &#43;--ro tpm_name&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; string<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp=
; &#43;--ro tpm-physical-index?&nbsp;&nbsp; int32 {ietfhw:entity-mib}?<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;-=
-ro compute-nodes* [node-name]&nbsp; <o:p>
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|=
&nbsp; &#43;--ro node-name&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; string<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp=
; &#43;--ro node-physical-index?&nbsp;&nbsp; int32 {ietfhw:entity-mib}?<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;-=
-ro endorsement-certificates&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; //Is this =
the TCG specified EK certificate, or AK used here for RA, or a unified one?=
 Is it better to move this under the respective tpm_name in tpms above, and=
 delete this structure?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--ro certificate* [tpm_name]<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--ro tpm_name&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;string<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--ro tpm-physical-index?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; int32 {ietfhw:entity-mib}?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--ro endorsement-certificate&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp; binary<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp; rpcs:<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;---x tp=
m12-challenge-response-attestation<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43=
;---w input<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nb=
sp; &#43;---w tpm1-attestation-challenge<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;---w pcr-indices*&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; uint8
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;=
 |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;---w nonce-value&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; binary<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;---w TPM_SIG_SCHEME-value&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; uint=
8&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;=
 |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;---w (key-identifier)?<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;--:(public-key)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;---w pub-key-id?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; binary<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;--:(TSS_UUID)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;---w TSS_UUID-value<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;---w=
 ulTimeLow?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;uint32<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;---w=
 usTimeMid?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; uint16<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;---w=
 usTimeHigh?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; uint16<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;---w=
 bClockSeqHigh?&nbsp;&nbsp; uint8<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;---w=
 bClockSeqLow?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; uint8<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;---w=
 rgbNode*&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; uint8<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;---w add-version?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; boolean<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;---w tpm_name?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; string<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;---w tpm-physical-index?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 int32 {ietfhw:entity-mib}?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43=
;--ro output<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--ro tpm12-attestation-response* [tpm_name]<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--ro tpm_name&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; string<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--ro tpm-physical-index?&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; int32 {ietfhw:entity-mib}?<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--ro up-time?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; uint32<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--ro node-name?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp; string<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--ro node-physical-index?&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; int32 {ietfhw:entity-mib}?<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--ro (tpm12-quote)<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&#43;--:(tpm12-quote) <o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;--ro ve=
rsion* []<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;--ro=
 major?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; uint8<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;--ro=
 minor?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; uint8<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;--ro=
 revMajor?&nbsp;&nbsp; uint8<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;--ro=
 revMinor?&nbsp;&nbsp; uint8<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;--ro fixed?&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; binary<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;--ro digest-=
value?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; binary<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;--ro externa=
l-data?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; binary<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;--ro TPM_PCR=
_COMPOSITE* []<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;|&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;--ro=
 pcr-indices*&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; uint8<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;--ro=
 value-size?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; uint32<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;--ro=
 tpm12-pcr-value*&nbsp;&nbsp; binary<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;--ro signatu=
re-size?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; uint32<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;--ro signatu=
re?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 binary<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--:(tpm12-quote2) <o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#=
43;--ro tag?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; uint8<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--=
ro fixed?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; binary<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--=
ro external-data?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; binary<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--=
ro pcr-indices*&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 uint8<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--=
ro locality-at-release?&nbsp;&nbsp; uint8<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--=
ro digest-at-release?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; binary<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--=
ro signature-size?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; uint32<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--=
ro signature?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp; binary<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;---x tp=
m2-challenge-response-attestation<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43=
;---w input<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nb=
sp; &#43;---w tpm2-attestation-challenge&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; //should we cons=
ider supporting multiple tpms in one challenge-response interaction? And th=
e output below has already multiple tpms~~<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nb=
sp; |&nbsp; &#43;---w pcr-list* []&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; //this is an array of =
array of PCRs, why do you design in this way?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nb=
sp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;---w pcr<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nb=
sp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;---w pcr-indices*&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;uint8<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nb=
sp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;---w (algo-registry-type)<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nb=
sp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--:(tcg)<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nb=
sp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;---w t=
cg-hash-algo-id?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; uint16<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nb=
sp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--:(ietf)<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nb=
sp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &=
#43;---w ietf-ni-hash-algo-id?&nbsp;&nbsp; uint8<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nb=
sp; | &nbsp;&#43;---w nonce-value&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; binary<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nb=
sp; |&nbsp; &#43;---w (signature-identifier-type)&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;=
 |&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;--:(TPM_ALG_ID)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nb=
sp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;---w TPM_ALG_ID-value?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; uint16<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nb=
sp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;--:(COSE_Algorithm)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nb=
sp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;---w COSE_Algorithm-value?&nbsp;=
&nbsp; int32<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nb=
sp; |&nbsp; &#43;---w (key-identifier)?&nbsp;&nbsp; <o:p>
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;=
 |&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--:(public-key)<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nb=
sp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;---w pub-key-id?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; binary<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nb=
sp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--:(uuid)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nb=
sp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;---w uuid-value?&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; binary&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;=
 |&nbsp; &#43;---w tpm_name?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; s=
tring&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;=
 |&nbsp; &#43;---w tpm-physical-index?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; int32 {ietfhw:entity-mib}?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| &nbsp=
;&#43;--ro output<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--ro tpm2-attestation-response* [tpm_name]&nbsp;<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--ro tpm_name&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; string<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--ro tpm-physical-index?&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp; int32 {ietfhw:entity-mib}?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--ro up-time?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; uint32<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--ro node-name?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; string<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--ro node-physical-index?&nbsp;&nbsp; =
int32 {ietfhw:entity-mib}?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--ro tpms-attest&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;--ro pcrdigest?&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;binary<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;--ro tpms-attest-result?&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; binary<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;--ro tpms-attest-result-length=
?&nbsp;&nbsp; uint32<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--ro tpmt-signature?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; binary&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; //is signature-length mis=
sed here?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;---x ba=
sic-trust-establishment&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; //So, this rpc is used once before the attestation process for trust est=
ablishment and certificate &amp; key-identifier exchange? If so, it is stil=
l tpm2.0 specific, I assume we
 need one for tpm1.2, too.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43=
;---w input<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nb=
sp; &#43;---w nonce-value&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; binary&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;=
 |&nbsp; &#43;---w (signature-identifier-type)
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;=
 |&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;--:(TPM_ALG_ID)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nb=
sp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;---w TPM_ALG_ID-value?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; uint16<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nb=
sp; |&nbsp; &#43;--:(COSE_Algorithm)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nb=
sp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;---w COSE_Algorithm-value?&nbsp;&nbsp; i=
nt32<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nb=
sp; &#43;---w tpm_name?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; string=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nb=
sp; &#43;---w tpm-physical-index?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; int32 {ietfhw:entity-mib}?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nb=
sp; &#43;---w certificate-name?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; string&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp; //how does the verifier know the existing certificate names =
in advance? The &quot;rats-support-structures&quot; above only provides the=
 EK certificate, not AK.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43=
;--ro output<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--ro attestation-certificates* [tpm_name]&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp; // challenge message has only one tpm_name, why are there multiple tpm&=
#8217;s response here?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--ro tpm_name&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; string<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--ro tpm-physical-index?&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; int32 {ietfhw:entity-mib}?<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--ro up-time?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp; uint32<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--ro node-name?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; s=
tring<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--ro node-physical-index?&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; int32 {ietfhw:entity-mib}?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--ro certificate-name?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; string<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--ro attestation-certificate?&nbsp;&nb=
sp; ietfct:end-entity-cert-cms&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; //Same problem, what=
 and where is AK certificate?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--ro (key-identifier)?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; //should here consider the TPM=
 1.2 TSS_UUID option? If we can use this RPC for TPM2.0 and TPM1.2 both, th=
at should be added here. If not, it goes in an corresponding TPM1.2
 RPC, analogously.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--:(public-key)<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;--ro pub-key=
-id?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; binary<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--:(uuid)<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--=
ro uuid-value?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; binary=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;---x lo=
g-retrieval <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&#43;---w input<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;---w log-selector* [node-name]<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;---w node-name&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; string<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;---w node-physical-index?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp; int32 {ietfhw:entity-mib}?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;---w (index-type)?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--:(last-entry)<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp; &#43;---w last-entry-value?=
&nbsp;&nbsp; binary<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--:(index)<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;---w index-number?&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; uint64<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--:(timestamp)<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;---w timesta=
mp?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; yang:date-and-tim=
e<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;---w log-type&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; identityref<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;---w pcr-list* []&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; //this i=
s an array of array of PCRs, why do you design in this way?<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;---w pcr<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;---w pcr-indices*&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp; uint8<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;---w (algo-registry-type)<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--:(tcg)<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;---w=
 tcg-hash-algo-id?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; uint16<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--:(ietf)<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; |&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 &#43;---w ietf-ni-hash-algo-id?&nbsp;&nbsp; uint8<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;---w log-entry-quantity?&nbsp;&nbsp; uint16<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; &#43;--ro output<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--ro system-event-logs<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&#43;--ro node-data* [node-name]<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--ro node-=
name&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp; string<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--ro node-=
physical-index?&nbsp;&nbsp; int32 {ietfhw:entity-mib}?<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--ro up-ti=
me?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp; uint32<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--ro tpm-u=
pdated* [tpm_name]&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;//so, do=
es it mean that there are possibly multiple tpms in one node? If so, how to=
 use the PCR values of them together to verify the log integrity?<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;--=
ro tpm_name&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp; string<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;--=
ro tpm-physical-index?&nbsp;&nbsp; int32 {ietfhw:entity-mib}?<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--ro log-r=
esult<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; &#43;--ro (log-type)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&#43;--:(bios)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;--ro bios-event-logs<o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--ro bios-event-entry* =
[event-number]<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--ro =
event-number&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; uint32<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--ro =
event-type?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; uint32<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--ro =
pcr-index?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; uint16&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; //should this be the pcr-value?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--ro =
digest-list* []&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#=
43;--ro (algo-registry-type)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&=
nbsp; &#43;--:(tcg)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&=
nbsp; |&nbsp; &#43;--ro tcg-hash-algo-id?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; uint16<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&=
nbsp; &#43;--:(ietf)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; |&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--ro ietf-ni-hash-algo-id?&nbsp;&nbsp; uint8<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; &#=
43;--ro digest*&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; bi=
nary<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--ro =
event-size?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; uint32<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--ro =
event-data*&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; uint8<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--:(ima)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--ro ima-event-logs<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &#43;--ro ima-even=
t-entry* [event-number]<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&#43;--ro event-number&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; uint64<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&#43;--ro ima-template?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; string<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;=
&#43;--ro filename-hint?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; string<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&#43;--ro filedata-hash?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; binary<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&#43;--ro template-hash-algorithm?&nbsp;&nbsp; string<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&#43;--ro template-hash?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; binary<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&#43;--ro pcr-index?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; uint16&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; //should=
 this be the pcr-value?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&#43;--ro signature?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; binary<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thanks a lot!<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">B.R.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Frank<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_C02846B1344F344EB4FAA6FA7AF481F13E7A743Cdggemm511mbxchi_--


From nobody Wed Jun 19 09:02:46 2019
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Subject: [Rats] aligning the use case documents appropriately
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"I am editing the usecase document prior to next Thursday's virtual interim"
This has taken longer than I would have liked, and Thursday is now tomorrow,
and you might want time to read it, so I have mostly failed here.
I am putting out a -02 document anyway.

I realized as I was processing the various comments that I and many others
are perhaps confused about what we need here.  I kept thinking that
this document was going to collect *end user* use cases, and of course some
people were wondering why I was talking about specific verticals.

Let me propose the following text:

+This document exists as place to collect use cases for the common RATS
+technologies in support of the IETF RATS charter point 1.  This document is
+not expected to be published as an RFC, but remain open as a working
+document.  It could become an appendix to provide motivation for a protocol
+standards document.
+
+This document will probably not deal with use cases from an end-user
+point of
+view, but rather on the technology verticals that wish to use RATS concepts
+(such as EAT) in their deployments.
+
+End-user use cases that would either directly leverage RATS technology, or
+would serve to inform technology choices are welcome, however.

I would be very happy if it turned out that we only discussed this point at
the virtual interim!   That we wind up with a strong consensus.

====



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Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
    > I was reading through your document, so I figured I'd provide the edits
    > I see...

I took your edits.

    > If a biometric is being used to identify the human, don't you mean
    > identity proofing of the manager?  How is that attestation?

this has become:
  + A FIDO use case involves a relying party that having a attestion on
  + the biometric system that identifies a human.  It is the state of the
  + biometric system that is being attested to, not the identity of the
  human.

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Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com> wrote:
    > Hi Michael,

    > A session based attestation is the combination of a static attestation
    > and the creation of a shared session key.  That is, possible subsequent
    > operations using the shared session key "inherit" the initial
    > attestation.  Such operations use MAC signatures and symmetric
    > encryption (using keys derived from the session key) in order to form a
    > protected API.  Ideally a session based attestation scheme also
    > provides "atomic" operation, terminated by a "commit" call.

I understand.  I'm not sure what to change, if anything, based upon your
comments.

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Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com> wrote:
    >> The TUDA draft seems to resemble (i). (Henk can correct me).

    >> The yang draft seems to resemble (ii). (Henk can correct me).

    mcr>     I'm trying to figure out what to do this statement.

    nms> If there is value in categorizing the attestation approach taken by
    nms> various proposed RATS drafts in terms of (i) implicit attestation
    nms> and (ii) explicit attestation then it seems TUDA
    nms> (https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-birkholz-rats-tuda/ ) may be
    nms> classified as implicit attestation. Since TUDA is also using
    nms> time-based exchanges Henk may think it doesn't fit well into this
    nms> categorization. The YANG module draft
    nms> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module/
    nms> appears to me to be a case of explicit attestation.

okay, but this is an analysis what the implementations/protocols provide,
whereas the usecase document is trying to categorize what the users need :-)

I'm violently agreeing that the terms are useful, but I don't think they
belong here.

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Subject: Re: [Rats] More use cases for draft-richardson-rats-usecases-00
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To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
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From: Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com>
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Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2019 07:28:06 +0200
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Subject: Re: [Rats] More use cases for draft-richardson-rats-usecases-00
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On 2019-06-19 21:45, Michael Richardson wrote:
> 
> Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com> wrote:
>      > Hi Michael,
> 
>      > A session based attestation is the combination of a static attestation
>      > and the creation of a shared session key.  That is, possible subsequent
>      > operations using the shared session key "inherit" the initial
>      > attestation.  Such operations use MAC signatures and symmetric
>      > encryption (using keys derived from the session key) in order to form a
>      > protected API.  Ideally a session based attestation scheme also
>      > provides "atomic" operation, terminated by a "commit" call.
> 
> I understand.  I'm not sure what to change, if anything, based upon your
> comments.

Doesn't TEEP represent yet another attestation concept where each operation
is attested?

To me it looks that most if not all attestation schemes provide platform-related
data but they also combine that with application-specific data like keys in Android,
arbitrary operations like in TEEP, or the creation of a shared session key
like in SKS/KeyGen2.  I would consider splitting these topics since they appear
to be fairly independent.

Anders

> 
> --
> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
>   -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-
> 
> 
> 


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Subject: [Rats] agenda?
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Where can I find the agenda?  All I see is Michael's request below, and the=
 notice that
"The agenda will be distributed on the WG email list prior to the meeting."

The IESG rules for virtual interims (https://ietf.org/blog/guidance-face-fa=
ce-and-virtual-interim-meetings/) say:
> The meetings must be announced and the draft agenda published at least on=
e week (ideally two) before the call or session.

But I'm having a hard time finding where it was published.  Can someone poi=
nt me to it?

Thanks,
Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Michael Richardson
Sent: Friday, June 14, 2019 11:12 AM
To: rats@ietf.org
Subject: [Rats] agenda request for next week -- use cases


RATS Chairs:

I would like to propose two slots for the use cases for next week:
1) <5 minute update on document progress, what we need more of, and
   whether we are going in the right direction.

   Given no intent to publish, should the WG adopt this document so that
   it can say it is allocating time to WG documents first?

2) 10-15 minutes at the VERY END of the time period for discussion about
   details in the document, and how to best make this document most useful
   as we go forward.

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works  -=3D =
IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-




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From: "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" <ncamwing@cisco.com>
To: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
CC: Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>
Thread-Topic: Preliminary Agenda for today
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Subject: [Rats] Preliminary Agenda for today
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From: Shawn Willden <swillden@google.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2019 14:52:42 +0200
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To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
Cc: Thomas Fossati <Thomas.Fossati@arm.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>,  Anthony Nadalin <tonynad=40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>,  Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] draft-richardson-rats-usecases-00 comments
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On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 4:30 AM Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
wrote:

>
> Thomas Fossati <Thomas.Fossati@arm.com> wrote:
>     > =EF=BB=BFOn 27/03/2019, 18:25, "RATS on behalf of Michael Richardso=
n"
>     > <rats-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:
>     >> (Still looking for some pointers to *attestion* parts of the Andro=
id
>     >> KeyStore.)
>
>     > Maybe you want to take a look at [1]
>
>     > Cheers, t
>
>     > [1] https://arxiv.org/pdf/1904.05572.pdf
>
> Thank you. It was a really interesting read.
> What I learnt is that Android mostly attests to the location of a device
> signing key.


This is correct.  Originally, keystore attestation was intended *only* to
prove that a key (a) lived in a thought-to-be-secure environment and (b)
that the key had a certain set of properties.  The scope has expanded a bit
to also attest to some bits of information about the device state, at least
as it was at boot time.



> I think that this is an implementation of the device-type attestation tha=
t
> FIDO cares about.
>

It can serve that purpose, yes.


>   ]The paper and the referenced info at:
>   https://developer.android.com/training/articles/security-key-attestatio=
n
>
> does not give me additional use case, but I have other reading that I hav=
e
> not yet finished.
>
> --
> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
>  -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>


--=20
Shawn Willden | Staff Software Engineer | swillden@google.com | 720-924-664=
5

--00000000000015f16c058bc0d325
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 4:30 AM Michael R=
ichardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr%2Bietf@sandelman.ca">mcr+ietf@sandelman=
.ca</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(2=
04,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
Thomas Fossati &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Thomas.Fossati@arm.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">Thomas.Fossati@arm.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; =EF=BB=BFOn 27/03/2019, 18:25, &quot;RATS on behalf of M=
ichael Richardson&quot;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_=
blank">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a> on behalf of <a href=3D"mailto:mcr%2Bietf@=
sandelman.ca" target=3D"_blank">mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; (Still looking for some pointers to *attestion* part=
s of the Android<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;&gt; KeyStore.)<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Maybe you want to take a look at [1]<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Cheers, t<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; [1] <a href=3D"https://arxiv.org/pdf/1904.05572.pdf" rel=
=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://arxiv.org/pdf/1904.05572.pdf</a><=
br>
<br>
Thank you. It was a really interesting read.<br>
What I learnt is that Android mostly attests to the location of a device<br=
>
signing key.</blockquote><div><br></div><div>This is correct.=C2=A0 Origina=
lly, keystore attestation was intended *only* to prove that a key (a) lived=
 in a thought-to-be-secure environment and (b) that the key had a certain s=
et of properties.=C2=A0 The scope has expanded a bit to also attest to some=
 bits of information about the device state, at least as it was at boot tim=
e.</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pad=
ding-left:1ex">I think that this is an implementation of the device-type at=
testation that FIDO cares about.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>It can=
 serve that purpose, yes.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,=
204);padding-left:1ex">=C2=A0 ]The paper and the referenced info at:<br>
=C2=A0 <a href=3D"https://developer.android.com/training/articles/security-=
key-attestation" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://developer.and=
roid.com/training/articles/security-key-attestation</a><br>
<br>
does not give me additional use case, but I have other reading that I have<=
br>
not yet finished.<br>
<br>
--<br>
Michael Richardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr%2BIETF@sandelman.ca" target=3D=
"_blank">mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca</a>&gt;, Sandelman Software Works<br>
=C2=A0-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-<br>
<br><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
RATS mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">RATS@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"=
 class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div=
 dir=3D"ltr"><span style=3D"font-family:Times;font-size:medium"><div style=
=3D"line-height:1.5em;padding-top:10px;margin-top:10px;color:rgb(85,85,85);=
font-family:sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style=3D"border-width:2px 0px=
 0px;border-style:solid;border-color:rgb(213,15,37);padding-top:2px;margin-=
top:2px">Shawn Willden=C2=A0|</span><span style=3D"border-width:2px 0px 0px=
;border-style:solid;border-color:rgb(51,105,232);padding-top:2px;margin-top=
:2px">=C2=A0Staff Software Engineer=C2=A0|</span><span style=3D"border-widt=
h:2px 0px 0px;border-style:solid;border-color:rgb(0,153,57);padding-top:2px=
;margin-top:2px">=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:swillden@google.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">swillden@google.com</a>=C2=A0|</span><span style=3D"border-width:2px 0=
px 0px;border-style:solid;border-color:rgb(238,178,17);padding-top:2px;marg=
in-top:2px">=C2=A0720-924-6645</span></div></span></div></div></div></div><=
/div></div></div>

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From: Shawn Willden <swillden@google.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2019 15:16:48 +0200
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To: Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com>
Cc: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Anthony Nadalin <tonynad=40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>,  Thomas Fossati <Thomas.Fossati@arm.com>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Android attestations: Re: draft-richardson-rats-usecases-00 comments
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On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 8:03 AM Anders Rundgren <
anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 2019-06-19 04:31, Michael Richardson wrote:
> >
> > Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com> wrote:
> >      > Here you have another link:
> >      >
> https://developer.android.com/training/articles/security-key-attestation
> >
> >      > As an application developer I find this scheme and the associated
> >      > "AndroidKeyStore" quite impractical.  The recent addition of
> >      > "StrongBox" makes it worse.
> >
> > Interesting. What is it that you find that you can not do?
>
> A mechanism that only attests keys cannot (securely) be used for
> provisioning anything but keys.
>

What else do you wish to provision? Anything other than TAs (addressed
below)?  And how does the addition of StrongBox make keystore worse?


> >      > With a two-level TEE/SE session-key based scheme you only need to
> >      > attest the session permitting you to perform any number of secure
> >      > operations and close the session with a "commit" which in turn
> responds
> >      > with a (session signed) message to the SP that everything went
> right.
> >
> > Or is this what you wish you had?
>
> In the absence of installable TA support, I have implemented this in
> Android as a SW emulator [1]. It is a part of the Saturn [3] payment
> authorization system I'm working on.
>

The Android platform security team considers this an anti-goal.  We're very
concerned that the scope of functionality being installed in TEEs is
exploding to a degree that the TEEs are becoming less trustworthy, not more
(and they haven't been particularly good).  Not only do we not want to
enable field-installation of TAs, we'd like to constrain factory/OTA
installation to smaller sets (some devices ship with upwards of 40 TAs
today), though our ability to do that is very limited.

There's a tension here between enabling more use cases and maintaining /
increasing the security of existing use cases. We recognize that GP and
many others disagree with us on how to balance the issues, and that perhaps
we're wrong, but we have to respond to the Android ecosystem as we see it.


> As I have tried to describe [2], this concept also relieves you from (IMO)
> unwanted/unnecessary dependencies on provisioning protocol formats.


> Anders
> 1]
> https://github.com/cyberphone/webpkisuite-4-android/blob/master/app/src/main/java/org/webpki/mobile/android/sks/AndroidSKSImplementation.java
> 2] https://github.com/ietf-teep/architecture/issues/52
> 3] https://cyberphone.github.io/doc/two-visions-4-mobile-payments.pdf


-- 
Shawn Willden | Staff Software Engineer | swillden@google.com | 720-924-6645

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 8:03 AM Anders Ru=
ndgren &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com">anders.rundgren=
.net@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px =
solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On 2019-06-19 04:31, Michael Richa=
rdson wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Anders Rundgren &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank">anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Here you have another link:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; <a href=3D"https://developer.android.com/trai=
ning/articles/security-key-attestation" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank=
">https://developer.android.com/training/articles/security-key-attestation<=
/a><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; As an application developer I find this schem=
e and the associated<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; &quot;AndroidKeyStore&quot; quite impractical=
.=C2=A0 The recent addition of<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; &quot;StrongBox&quot; makes it worse.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Interesting. What is it that you find that you can not do?<br>
<br>
A mechanism that only attests keys cannot (securely) be used for provisioni=
ng anything but keys.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>What else do you =
wish to provision? Anything other than TAs (addressed below)?=C2=A0 And how=
 does the addition of StrongBox make keystore worse?</div><div>=C2=A0</div>=
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; With a two-level TEE/SE session-key based sch=
eme you only need to<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; attest the session permitting you to perform =
any number of secure<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; operations and close the session with a &quot=
;commit&quot; which in turn responds<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; with a (session signed) message to the SP tha=
t everything went right.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Or is this what you wish you had?<br>
<br>
In the absence of installable TA support, I have implemented this in Androi=
d as a SW emulator [1]. It is a part of the Saturn [3] payment authorizatio=
n system I&#39;m working on.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The Androi=
d platform security team considers this an anti-goal.=C2=A0 We&#39;re very =
concerned that the scope of functionality being installed in TEEs is explod=
ing to a degree that the TEEs are becoming less trustworthy, not more (and =
they haven&#39;t been particularly good).=C2=A0 Not only do we not want to =
enable field-installation of TAs, we&#39;d like to constrain factory/OTA in=
stallation to smaller sets (some devices ship with upwards of 40 TAs today)=
, though our ability to do that is very limited.</div><div><br></div><div>T=
here&#39;s a tension here between enabling more use cases and maintaining /=
 increasing the security of existing use cases. We recognize that GP and ma=
ny others disagree with us on how to balance the issues, and that perhaps w=
e&#39;re wrong, but we have to respond to the Android ecosystem as we see i=
t.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">=
As I have tried to describe [2], this concept also relieves you from (IMO) =
unwanted/unnecessary dependencies on provisioning protocol formats.=C2=A0</=
blockquote><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.=
8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Anders<br>
1] <a href=3D"https://github.com/cyberphone/webpkisuite-4-android/blob/mast=
er/app/src/main/java/org/webpki/mobile/android/sks/AndroidSKSImplementation=
.java" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/cyberphone/w=
ebpkisuite-4-android/blob/master/app/src/main/java/org/webpki/mobile/androi=
d/sks/AndroidSKSImplementation.java</a><br>
2] <a href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-teep/architecture/issues/52" rel=3D"n=
oreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/ietf-teep/architecture/issu=
es/52</a><br>
3] <a href=3D"https://cyberphone.github.io/doc/two-visions-4-mobile-payment=
s.pdf" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://cyberphone.github.io/do=
c/two-visions-4-mobile-payments.pdf</a></blockquote><div>=C2=A0</div></div>=
-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><span style=3D"font-family:Times;font-s=
ize:medium"><div style=3D"line-height:1.5em;padding-top:10px;margin-top:10p=
x;color:rgb(85,85,85);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:small"><span style=
=3D"border-width:2px 0px 0px;border-style:solid;border-color:rgb(213,15,37)=
;padding-top:2px;margin-top:2px">Shawn Willden=C2=A0|</span><span style=3D"=
border-width:2px 0px 0px;border-style:solid;border-color:rgb(51,105,232);pa=
dding-top:2px;margin-top:2px">=C2=A0Staff Software Engineer=C2=A0|</span><s=
pan style=3D"border-width:2px 0px 0px;border-style:solid;border-color:rgb(0=
,153,57);padding-top:2px;margin-top:2px">=C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:swillden@g=
oogle.com" target=3D"_blank">swillden@google.com</a>=C2=A0|</span><span sty=
le=3D"border-width:2px 0px 0px;border-style:solid;border-color:rgb(238,178,=
17);padding-top:2px;margin-top:2px">=C2=A0720-924-6645</span></div></span><=
/div></div></div></div></div></div></div>

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Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2019 09:31:40 -0400
From: Carl Wallace <carl@redhoundsoftware.com>
To: Shawn Willden <swillden=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com>
CC: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, Anthony Nadalin <tonynad=40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, Thomas Fossati <Thomas.Fossati@arm.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <D93100A6.E0A23%carl@redhoundsoftware.com>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] Android attestations: Re: draft-richardson-rats-usecases-00 comments
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Android attestations: Re: draft-richardson-rats-usecases-00 comments
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>> <snip>
> The Android platform security team considers this an anti-goal.  We're very
> concerned that the scope of functionality being installed in TEEs is exploding
> to a degree that the TEEs are becoming less trustworthy, not more (and they
> haven't been particularly good).  Not only do we not want to enable
> field-installation of TAs, we'd like to constrain factory/OTA installation to
> smaller sets (some devices ship with upwards of 40 TAs today), though our
> ability to do that is very limited.

+1
> 
> There's a tension here between enabling more use cases and maintaining /
> increasing the security of existing use cases. We recognize that GP and many
> others disagree with us on how to balance the issues, and that perhaps we're
> wrong, but we have to respond to the Android ecosystem as we see it.

Re: more use cases, the ability to encrypt a key attestation in TEE/SE for a
specific provisioning end point would be nice to have (to conceal a
challenge password while in transit, for example).
> 



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<html><head></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: s=
pace; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size:=
 14px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><div><br></div><span id=3D"OLK_SRC_B=
ODY_SECTION"><blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORD=
ER-LEFT: #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0p=
x 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">&lt;sni=
p&gt;<br></blockquote><div>The Android platform security team considers this=
 an anti-goal.&nbsp; We're very concerned that the scope of functionality be=
ing installed in TEEs is exploding to a degree that the TEEs are becoming le=
ss trustworthy, not more (and they haven't been particularly good).&nbsp; No=
t only do we not want to enable field-installation of TAs, we'd like to cons=
train factory/OTA installation to smaller sets (some devices ship with upwar=
ds of 40 TAs today), though our ability to do that is very limited.</div></d=
iv></div></blockquote></span><div><br></div><div>+1</div><span id=3D"OLK_SRC_B=
ODY_SECTION"><blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQUOTE" style=3D"BORD=
ER-LEFT: #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><br></div><div>There's a tension here between e=
nabling more use cases and maintaining / increasing the security of existing=
 use cases. We recognize that GP and many others disagree with us on how to =
balance the issues, and that perhaps we're wrong, but we have to respond to =
the Android ecosystem as we see it.</div></div></div></blockquote></span><di=
v><br></div><div>Re: more use cases, the ability to encrypt a key attestatio=
n in TEE/SE for a specific provisioning end point would be nice to have (to =
conceal a challenge password while in transit, for example). &nbsp;</div><sp=
an id=3D"OLK_SRC_BODY_SECTION"><blockquote id=3D"MAC_OUTLOOK_ATTRIBUTION_BLOCKQU=
OTE" style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #b5c4df 5 solid; PADDING:0 0 0 5; MARGIN:0 0 0 5;">=
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To: Shawn Willden <swillden@google.com>
Cc: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Anthony Nadalin <tonynad=40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Thomas Fossati <Thomas.Fossati@arm.com>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
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From: Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Android attestations: Re: draft-richardson-rats-usecases-00 comments
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On 2019-06-20 15:16, Shawn Willden wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 8:03 AM Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com <mailto:anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
>     On 2019-06-19 04:31, Michael Richardson wrote:
>      >
>      > Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com <mailto:anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com>> wrote:
>      >      > Here you have another link:
>      >      > https://developer.android.com/training/articles/security-key-attestation
>      >
>      >      > As an application developer I find this scheme and the associated
>      >      > "AndroidKeyStore" quite impractical.  The recent addition of
>      >      > "StrongBox" makes it worse.
>      >
>      > Interesting. What is it that you find that you can not do?
> 
>     A mechanism that only attests keys cannot (securely) be used for provisioning anything but keys.
> 
> 
> What else do you wish to provision? Anything other than TAs (addressed below)?

Most of all I wanted to provision "stuff" in an *atomic fashion* which was the initial motive for the session based attestation scheme.
In my particular case "stuff" also includes various key meta data like payment credential images.

And how does the addition of StrongBox make keystore worse?

I don't have much data on StrongBox so maybe I was out of line there, but the idea I had was that keys would not be stored in secure silicon, but rather encrypted in the TEE or RE environment.  In that case StrongBox would be a crypto processor with embedded keys which also would be used for provisioning/attestation:
https://github.com/ietf-teep/architecture/issues/52#issuecomment-486929941

Anders

> 
>      >      > With a two-level TEE/SE session-key based scheme you only need to
>      >      > attest the session permitting you to perform any number of secure
>      >      > operations and close the session with a "commit" which in turn responds
>      >      > with a (session signed) message to the SP that everything went right.
>      >
>      > Or is this what you wish you had?
> 
>     In the absence of installable TA support, I have implemented this in Android as a SW emulator [1]. It is a part of the Saturn [3] payment authorization system I'm working on.
> 
> 
> The Android platform security team considers this an anti-goal.  We're very concerned that the scope of functionality being installed in TEEs is exploding to a degree that the TEEs are becoming less trustworthy, not more (and they haven't been particularly good).  Not only do we not want to enable field-installation of TAs, we'd like to constrain factory/OTA installation to smaller sets (some devices ship with upwards of 40 TAs today), though our ability to do that is very limited.
> 
> There's a tension here between enabling more use cases and maintaining / increasing the security of existing use cases. We recognize that GP and many others disagree with us on how to balance the issues, and that perhaps we're wrong, but we have to respond to the Android ecosystem as we see it.
> 
>     As I have tried to describe [2], this concept also relieves you from (IMO) unwanted/unnecessary dependencies on provisioning protocol formats. 
> 
> 
>     Anders
>     1] https://github.com/cyberphone/webpkisuite-4-android/blob/master/app/src/main/java/org/webpki/mobile/android/sks/AndroidSKSImplementation.java
>     2] https://github.com/ietf-teep/architecture/issues/52
>     3] https://cyberphone.github.io/doc/two-visions-4-mobile-payments.pdf
> 
> -- 
> Shawn Willden | Staff Software Engineer |swillden@google.com <mailto:swillden@google.com> | 720-924-6645


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To: Shawn Willden <swillden@google.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] draft-richardson-rats-usecases-00 comments
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> On Jun 20, 2019, at 5:52 AM, Shawn Willden <swillden@google.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> Thank you. It was a really interesting read.
> What I learnt is that Android mostly attests to the location of a =
device
> signing key.
>=20
> This is correct.  Originally, keystore attestation was intended *only* =
to prove that a key (a) lived in a thought-to-be-secure environment and =
(b) that the key had a certain set of properties.  The scope has =
expanded a bit to also attest to some bits of information about the =
device state, at least as it was at boot time.

A few other things that seem useful and may be implemented in some =
cases:
That the key use is gated by user verification like a fingerprint match. =
This is immensely valuable IMO.
That there are timer throttles that govern the rate of key use.
Knowing which application (e.g. Android app) requested the attestation.
Allowing the application to include custom data in the attestation (it =
must be marked as as less secure than other data in the attestation).=20
Inventory of some or or all of the SW on the device.

A lot of these are useful as risk signals or cross-checks for payments =
and such.

LL=

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
Jun 20, 2019, at 5:52 AM, Shawn Willden &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:swillden@google.com" class=3D"">swillden@google.com</a>&gt;=
 wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div =
class=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: =
1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); =
padding-left: 1ex;">Thank you. It was a really interesting read.<br =
class=3D"">What I learnt is that Android mostly attests to the location =
of a device<br class=3D"">signing key.</blockquote><div =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D"">This is correct.&nbsp; Originally, keystore =
attestation was intended *only* to prove that a key (a) lived in a =
thought-to-be-secure environment and (b) that the key had a certain set =
of properties.&nbsp; The scope has expanded a bit to also attest to some =
bits of information about the device state, at least as it was at boot =
time.</div></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">A few =
other things that seem useful and may be implemented in some =
cases:</div><div class=3D""><ul class=3D"MailOutline"><li class=3D"">That =
the key use is gated by user verification like a fingerprint match. This =
is immensely valuable IMO.</li><li class=3D"">That there are timer =
throttles that govern the rate of key use.</li><li class=3D"">Knowing =
which application (e.g. Android app) requested the attestation.</li><li =
class=3D"">Allowing the application to include custom data in the =
attestation (it must be marked as as less secure than other data in the =
attestation).&nbsp;</li><li class=3D"">Inventory of some or or all of =
the SW on the device.</li></ul><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D"">A lot of these are useful as risk =
signals or cross-checks for payments and such.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">LL</div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_9EED007E-52BF-488D-BD0B-ADBB63B93297--


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Subject: [Rats] [Ace] Constrained Node/Network Cluster @ IETF105: DRAFT AGENDA
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Here is my usual eclectic condensed agenda based on the DRAFT AGENDA
for IETF105.  Remember that there is still quite some potential for
changes.

Conflicts that meet the eye:  COSE/TEEP again!
ROLL/SUIT/DINRG and 6TISCH/ACE are maybe slightly less annoying.
(The poor TEEP people get to both start and end the week, too.)
LAKE and LOOPS -- two BOFs at the same time?

All times are EDT (Eastern Daylight Time) =3D=3D UTC -4 hours.
(Pure UTC times at https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/agenda-utc are
useful for those who want to listen from remote.)

Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten

FRIDAY, March 22, 2019
-- OMA/T2TRG Work Meeting - @ Ericsson Montreal Office (St-Laurent)

SATURDAY/SUNDAY, March 23/24. 2019
-- Hackathon (including various interops) - Centre Ville
-- Sun 1700-1900  Welcome Reception - Place du Canada
-- Sun 1800-2000  Hot RFC Lightning Talks - Viger

MONDAY, July 22, 2019

1000-1200  Morning Session I
Laurier 	ART	dispatch	Dispatch WG
Van Horne	SEC ***	teep	Trusted Execution Environment =
Provisioning WG

1330-1530  Afternoon Session I
Van Horne	INT ***	6lo	IPv6 over Networks of =
Resource-constrained Nodes WG
Place du Canada	SEC	secdispatch	Security Dispatch WG
Duluth  	TSV	taps	Transport Services WG

1550-1750  Afternoon Session II
Laurier 	ART	httpbis	Hypertext Transfer Protocol WG
St-Catherine	OPS	v6ops	IPv6 Operations WG
Van Horne	SEC ***	lake	Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange =
BOF
Place du Canada	TSV	loops	Local Optimizations on Path Segments BOF

1810-1910  Afternoon Session III
Laurier 	TSV	tsvwg	Transport Area Working Group WG

TUESDAY, July 23, 2019

1000-1200  Morning Session I
St-Catherine	ART ***	cbor	1000-1130 Concise Binary Object =
Representation Maintenance and Extensions WG
St-Catherine	INT	ipwave	1130-1200 IP Wireless Access in =
Vehicular Environments WG
Notre Dame	IRTF	icnrg	Information-Centric Networking
Duluth  	OPS	anima	Autonomic Networking Integrated Model =
and Approach WG
Van Horne	SEC	cacao	Collaborative Automated Course of Action =
Operations for Cyber Security BOF
Place du Canada	TSV	quic	QUIC WG

1330-1500  Afternoon Session I
Duluth  	OPS	anima	Autonomic Networking Integrated Model =
and Approach WG

1520-1650  Afternoon Session II
Duluth  	INT	intarea	Internet Area Working Group WG
Place du Canada	IRTF	irtfopen	IRTF Open Meeting
Van Horne	SEC	oauth	Web Authorization Protocol WG

1710-1810  Afternoon Session III
Duluth  	ART ***	core	Constrained RESTful Environments WG
Laurier 	INT	6man	IPv6 Maintenance WG
Place du Canada	SEC	tls	Transport Layer Security WG

WEDNESDAY, July 24, 2019

1000-1200  Morning Session I
Van Horne	IRTF***	dinrg	Decentralized Internet Infrastructure
St-Catherine	RTG ***	roll	Routing Over Low power and Lossy =
networks WG
Viger   	SEC ***	suit	Software Updates for Internet of Things =
WG
Place du Canada	TSV	quic	QUIC WG

1330-1530  Afternoon Session I
Place du Canada	GEN	netrqmts	IETF Meeting Network =
Requirements BOF
Laurier 	IRTF	pearg	Privacy Enhancements and Assessments =
Research Group
Viger   	IRTF***	t2trg	Thing-to-Thing
St-Catherine	RTG	bier	Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG
Centre Ville	RTG	detnet	Deterministic Networking WG

1550-1650  Afternoon Session II
St-Catherine	RTG	babel	Babel routing protocol WG
Centre Ville	RTG	detnet	Deterministic Networking WG
Van Horne	SEC ***	rats	Remote ATtestation ProcedureS WG

THURSDAY, July 25, 2019

1000-1200  Morning Session I
Centre Ville	ART ***	core	Constrained RESTful Environments WG
St-Catherine	RTG	rift	Routing In Fat Trees WG
Place du Canada	SEC	tls	Transport Layer Security WG
Laurier 	TSV	tsvwg	Transport Area Working Group WG

1330-1530  Afternoon Session I
Duluth  	INT	dnssd	Extensions for Scalable DNS Service =
Discovery WG
Viger   	IRTF	coinrg	Computing in the Network Proposed =
Research Group
Laurier 	IRTF	panrg	Path Aware Networking RG
Place du Canada	SEC	saag	Security Area Open Meeting

1550-1720  Afternoon Session II
Laurier 	ART	httpbis	Hypertext Transfer Protocol WG
Duluth  	INT	6man	IPv6 Maintenance WG
Place du Canada	IRTF	cfrg	Crypto Forum
St-Catherine	SEC ***	rats	Remote ATtestation ProcedureS WG
Centre Ville	TSV	tsvarea	Transport Area Open Meeting

1740-1910  Afternoon Session III
Duluth  	INT ***	6tisch	IPv6 over the TSCH mode of IEEE =
802.15.4e WG
Centre Ville	SEC ***	ace	Authentication and Authorization for =
Constrained Environments WG
Place du Canada	SEC	mls	Messaging Layer Security WG
Notre Dame	TSV	rmcat	RTP Media Congestion Avoidance =
Techniques WG

FRIDAY, July 26, 2019

1000-1200  Morning Session I
Notre Dame	ART	ice	Interactive Connectivity Establishment =
WG
Centre Ville	INT ***	lpwan	IPv6 over Low Power Wide-Area Networks =
WG
Place du Canada	IRTF	maprg	Measurement and Analysis for Protocols
Laurier 	SEC	mls	Messaging Layer Security WG
Duluth  	SEC	oauth	Web Authorization Protocol WG

1220-1350  Afternoon Session I
Centre Ville	SEC	acme	Automated Certificate Management =
Environment WG
Van Horne	SEC ***	cose	CBOR Object Signing and Encryption WG
St-Catherine	SEC ***	teep	Trusted Execution Environment =
Provisioning WG


_______________________________________________
Ace mailing list
Ace@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ace



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From: Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Teep] [Ace] Constrained Node/Network Cluster @ IETF105: DRAFT AGENDA
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [Teep] [Ace] Constrained Node/Network Cluster @ IETF105: DRAFT AGENDA
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From nobody Sat Jun 22 12:34:22 2019
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Here=E2=80=99s a proposed position on EAT in relation to CWT and JWT and =
claim definition. This roughly gives a position on many of the issues =
identified by Kathleen. I didn=E2=80=99t attend the interim meeting and =
haven=E2=80=99t seen notes from it, so don=E2=80=99t know how this lines =
up with that discussion.


An EAT is either a CWT or a JWT. The difference is just syntax / =
encoding.

When this WG defines an EAT claim we will define it for both CWT and JWT =
and register it in both registries.=20

Just like with CWT and JWT, there is no formal requirement or mechanism =
that requires that a claim be defined or registered for both, so folks =
outside this WG may define an attestation for just CWT or just JWT, the =
same as it is for the authentication use cases.

We will not modify the main rules given in the CWT and JWT RFCs for for =
registration of new claims. (Note that CWT and JWT have different =
set-ups for claim registration. JWT is always Specification Required =
(which requires expert review)). CWT has several levels. Seems a bit =
weird to me that they are different.)

Claims defined by this WG are standards track so they pass both =
criteria.

Others wishing to define a  claim for both CWT and JWT that is not =
standard track must meet the =E2=80=9CSpecification Required=E2=80=9D =
criteria because that is the minimum set by JWT and it is higher than =
that set for CWT.

The primary means for use cases and implementations to settle on only =
high-quality claims is through the creation of profiles, not through the =
claims registration process (expert review and such). Some profiles =
could be IETF standards.


I believe I know how to write down the information model in CDDL and =
deterministically derive the JSON and CBOR data models from it.

It doesn=E2=80=99t make sense to me to not have CWTs and JWTs used for =
attestation as anything but equivalent.=20

I=E2=80=99m not clear yet if we need to some how mark CWT and JWTs some =
how when they are used for entity attestation. Maybe you can always tell =
by context. Maybe not.=20

LL



--Apple-Mail=_49C9F25A-E465-43BD-BA00-6E7FCF052D39
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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Here=E2=80=99s a proposed position on EAT in relation to CWT =
and JWT and claim definition. This roughly gives a position on many of =
the issues identified by Kathleen. I didn=E2=80=99t attend the interim =
meeting and haven=E2=80=99t seen notes from it, so don=E2=80=99t know =
how this lines up with that discussion.<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">An EAT is either a CWT or a JWT. The difference is just =
syntax / encoding.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">When this WG defines an EAT claim we will define it for both =
CWT and JWT and register it in both registries.&nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Just like with CWT and =
JWT, there is no formal requirement or mechanism that requires that a =
claim be defined or registered for both, so folks outside this WG may =
define an attestation for just CWT or just JWT, the same as it is for =
the authentication use cases.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">We will not modify the main rules given =
in the CWT and JWT RFCs for for registration of new claims. (Note that =
CWT and JWT have different set-ups for claim registration. JWT is always =
Specification Required (which requires expert review)). CWT has several =
levels. Seems a bit weird to me that they are different.)</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Claims defined by this =
WG are standards track so they pass both criteria.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Others wishing to define =
a &nbsp;claim for both CWT and JWT that is not standard track must meet =
the =E2=80=9CSpecification Required=E2=80=9D criteria because that is =
the minimum set by JWT and it is higher than that set for CWT.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The primary means for =
use cases and implementations to settle on only high-quality claims is =
through the creation of profiles, not through the claims registration =
process (expert review and such). Some profiles could be IETF =
standards.</div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I believe I know how to =
write down the information model in CDDL and deterministically derive =
the JSON and CBOR data models from it.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">It doesn=E2=80=99t make sense to me to =
not have CWTs and JWTs used for attestation as anything but =
equivalent.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">I=E2=80=99m not clear yet if we need to some how mark CWT and =
JWTs some how when they are used for entity attestation. Maybe you can =
always tell by context. Maybe not.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_49C9F25A-E465-43BD-BA00-6E7FCF052D39--


From nobody Sun Jun 23 04:02:02 2019
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Subject: [Rats] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rats-eat-00.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the Remote ATtestation ProcedureS WG of the IETF.

        Title           : The Entity Attestation Token (EAT)
        Authors         : Giridhar Mandyam
                          Laurence Lundblade
                          Miguel Ballesteros
                          Jeremy O'Donoghue
	Filename        : draft-ietf-rats-eat-00.txt
	Pages           : 23
	Date            : 2019-06-22

Abstract:
   An attestation format based on concise binary object representation
   (CBOR) is proposed that is suitable for inclusion in a CBOR Web Token
   (CWT), know as the Entity Attestation Token (EAT).  The associated
   data can be used by a relying party to assess the security state of a
   remote device or module.

Contributing

   TBD


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rats-eat/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rats-eat-00
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-rats-eat-00


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until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

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ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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From: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2019 07:06:35 -0400
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Subject: Re: [Rats] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rats-eat-00.txt
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--000000000000ce3061058bfbb1be
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Greetings!

As a WG draft, the content will reflect consensus decisions.  Thank you to
the authors for the revision and work towards addressing the identified
issues discussed to date.

Best regards,
Kathleen

On Sun, Jun 23, 2019 at 7:02 AM <internet-drafts@ietf.org> wrote:

>
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> directories.
> This draft is a work item of the Remote ATtestation ProcedureS WG of the
> IETF.
>
>         Title           : The Entity Attestation Token (EAT)
>         Authors         : Giridhar Mandyam
>                           Laurence Lundblade
>                           Miguel Ballesteros
>                           Jeremy O'Donoghue
>         Filename        : draft-ietf-rats-eat-00.txt
>         Pages           : 23
>         Date            : 2019-06-22
>
> Abstract:
>    An attestation format based on concise binary object representation
>    (CBOR) is proposed that is suitable for inclusion in a CBOR Web Token
>    (CWT), know as the Entity Attestation Token (EAT).  The associated
>    data can be used by a relying party to assess the security state of a
>    remote device or module.
>
> Contributing
>
>    TBD
>
>
> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rats-eat/
>
> There are also htmlized versions available at:
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rats-eat-00
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-rats-eat-00
>
>
> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
> submission
> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>


-- 

Best regards,
Kathleen

--000000000000ce3061058bfbb1be
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Greetings!<br><div><br></div><div>As a WG draft, the conte=
nt will reflect consensus decisions.=C2=A0 Thank you to the authors for the=
 revision and work towards addressing the identified issues discussed to da=
te.</div><div><br></div><div>Best regards,</div><div>Kathleen</div></div><b=
r><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, =
Jun 23, 2019 at 7:02 AM &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org">int=
ernet-drafts@ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,20=
4);padding-left:1ex"><br>
A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies.<br>
This draft is a work item of the Remote ATtestation ProcedureS WG of the IE=
TF.<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0:=
 The Entity Attestation Token (EAT)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Authors=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: Giri=
dhar Mandyam<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Laurence Lundblade<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Miguel Ballesteros<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Jeremy O&#39;Donoghue<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Filename=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : draft-iet=
f-rats-eat-00.txt<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Pages=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0:=
 23<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 :=
 2019-06-22<br>
<br>
Abstract:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0An attestation format based on concise binary object represent=
ation<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(CBOR) is proposed that is suitable for inclusion in a CBOR We=
b Token<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0(CWT), know as the Entity Attestation Token (EAT).=C2=A0 The a=
ssociated<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0data can be used by a relying party to assess the security sta=
te of a<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0remote device or module.<br>
<br>
Contributing<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0TBD<br>
<br>
<br>
The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:<br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rats-eat/" rel=3D"no=
referrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rat=
s-eat/</a><br>
<br>
There are also htmlized versions available at:<br>
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rats-eat-00" rel=3D"noref=
errer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rats-eat-00=
</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-rats-eat-00" re=
l=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/dr=
aft-ietf-rats-eat-00</a><br>
<br>
<br>
Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio=
n<br>
until the htmlized version and diff are available at <a href=3D"http://tool=
s.ietf.org" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">tools.ietf.org</a>.<br>
<br>
Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:<br>
<a href=3D"ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=
=3D"_blank">ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/</a><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
RATS mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">RATS@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"=
 class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div>Best regards,</div><di=
v>Kathleen</div></div></div>

--000000000000ce3061058bfbb1be--


From nobody Mon Jun 24 08:04:24 2019
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From: Thomas Hardjono <hardjono@mit.edu>
To: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] More use cases for draft-richardson-rats-usecases-00
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Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 15:04:12 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Rats] More use cases for draft-richardson-rats-usecases-00
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Folks,

What's the best way to contribute use-cases to draft-richardson-rats-usecas=
es-00 ?

Should I post the text on the mail-list for discussion.



Best


-- thomas --


From nobody Mon Jun 24 12:39:33 2019
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Preliminary Agenda for today
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Please send the interim meeting recording link, if available, as I had
to bail half way through. Thank you for setting it up.

mike

On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 5:12 AM Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)
<ncamwing@cisco.com> wrote:
>
> All,
>
> We will need to bash and complete the agenda at the beginning of the call=
, but here is a preliminary agenda for today:
>
>
>
> Agenda bashing, Logistics -- Chairs   (<5min)
> Chair=E2=80=99s review of document status and logistics - <5min
> Use Cases - <5min
> Document updates:
>
> EAT - ?min
> Architecture  - 5min
> Current data models & serializations (EAT, PSA, TUDA and Reference Intera=
ction model)  - 25min
> Information Model start =E2=80=93 10min
>
> Use Cases =E2=80=93 10-20min
> Next Steps =E2=80=93 adoption readiness and AOB (~5-10min)
>
>
>
> We also need a volunteer to be a notetaker which can be taken in https://=
etherpad.tools.ietf.org/p/notes-ietf-june2019-virtual
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>     Nancy
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats


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Subject: [Rats] EAT CWT/JWT/CDDL Pull Request
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Here=E2=80=99s a pull request =
<https://github.com/eat-ietf-wg/eat/pull/11> for the EAT draft that:

 - An EAT is now either CWT or JWT
 - Uses CDDL to normatively define the information model
 - No new claims, but some restricting of the existing ones

Comments please. My first real attempt at CDDL. :-)

LL


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Here=E2=80=99s a<a =
href=3D"https://github.com/eat-ietf-wg/eat/pull/11" class=3D""> pull =
request</a>&nbsp;for the EAT draft that:<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">&nbsp;- An EAT is now either CWT or =
JWT</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;- Uses CDDL to normatively define the =
information model</div></div><div class=3D"">&nbsp;- No new claims, but =
some restricting of the existing ones</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Comments please. My first real attempt =
at CDDL. :-)</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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Subject: Re: [Rats] EAT / CWT / JWT
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Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com> wrote:
    > We will not modify the main rules given in the CWT and JWT RFCs for f=
or
    > registration of new claims. (Note that CWT and JWT have different
    > set-ups for claim registration. JWT is always Specification Required
    > (which requires expert review)). CWT has several levels. Seems a bit
    > weird to me that they are different.)

I can not speak authoritatively for the writers, but let me try to explain:

1) JWT claims are always strings, and it's therefore always easy to come up
   with a unique private slug (just insert domain name, or PEN).  Any claim
   that is worth standardizing in a public fashion (vs defacto API from
   example.com) should have widespread understanding, and thus a good
   specification. (Yes, Spec. Required requires an expert to agree that the
   specification is legit)

2) CWT claims can also be strings (and thus all the points in (1) apply), b=
ut
   if you want to use the small-byte-count integers, then you want the regi=
stry.
   There are different mechanism in CWT to reflect the fact that the
   different categories of CBOR integers are limited in size.  The shortest
   items should be reserved for things that occur a lot.

    > Others wishing to define a claim for both CWT and JWT that is not
    > standard track must meet the =E2=80=9CSpecification Required=E2=80=9D=
 criteria because
    > that is the minimum set by JWT and it is higher than that set for CWT.

I'm not sure that this is precisely the case.
Others wishing to define non-standard claims can do so with strings.
JWT calls these

   Collision-Resistant Name
      A name in a namespace that enables names to be allocated in a
      manner such that they are highly unlikely to collide with other
      names.  Examples of collision-resistant namespaces include: Domain
      Names, Object Identifiers (OIDs) as defined in the ITU-T X.660 and
      X.670 Recommendation series, and Universally Unique IDentifiers
      (UUIDs) [RFC4122].  When using an administratively delegated
      namespace, the definer of a name needs to take reasonable
      precautions to ensure they are in control of the portion of the
      namespace they use to define the name.

My opinion is that such claims in a RATS context may have little long-term
value, but I would expect them to be used in experimental ways regularly.

    > It doesn=E2=80=99t make sense to me to not have CWTs and JWTs used for
    > attestation as anything but equivalent.

Due to the signature, they are not interchangeable.
While many constrained devices would prefer CWTs, and most non-constrained
environments can affort to have two libraries, I wonder if we can prefer CW=
T?

At the same time, I've heard that some vendors have JSON libraries already
and feel that CWT would require new work.  I'm not convinced, because I thi=
nk
that the distance between JSON and JWT involves adding a crypto library, and
that's significant.

    > I=E2=80=99m not clear yet if we need to some how mark CWT and JWTs so=
me how
    > when they are used for entity attestation. Maybe you can always tell =
by
    > context. Maybe not.

To disguish JWT vs CWT?
A JWT probably always starts with "{" :-)
A CWT probably always starts with CBOR tag 61.

=2D-
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-

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Subject: Re: [Rats] EAT / CWT / JWT
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Hi Michael,

> On Jun 25, 2019, at 8:18 AM, Michael Richardson =
<mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:
>=20
>> We will not modify the main rules given in the CWT and JWT RFCs for =
for
>> registration of new claims.=20

Will do even more reading on the labels / keys / registration issue and =
get back.


>> It doesn=E2=80=99t make sense to me to not have CWTs and JWTs used =
for
>> attestation as anything but equivalent.
>=20
> Due to the signature, they are not interchangeable.
> While many constrained devices would prefer CWTs, and most =
non-constrained
> environments can affort to have two libraries, I wonder if we can =
prefer CWT?
>=20
> At the same time, I've heard that some vendors have JSON libraries =
already
> and feel that CWT would require new work.  I'm not convinced, because =
I think
> that the distance between JSON and JWT involves adding a crypto =
library, and
> that's significant.

Here's what I meant when I used the word equivalent:
-  Claims in CWT and JWT have the same expressive power
- Any claim we standardize for JWT is also standardized for CWT and vice =
versa
- A standard claim in JWT has the same semantics as a standard claim in =
CWT and vice versa
- The information model is the same for both (see=20
- You never run into this: =E2=80=9Cif you were using a CWT for =
attestation for claim XXX it works great, but unfortunately JWT based =
attestations can=E2=80=99t do that"

The syntax (data model) of the claims is obviously different as is the =
signature.

I=E2=80=99m not saying conversion back and forth is part of equivalence =
or is a goal, though it does seem like something that would be nice to =
have. Obviously, the steps to do that are roughly: 1) Verify the =
signature on the original, 2) parse each claim, 3) generate the new =
syntax for each claim, 4) re sign in the new format. And do this is in a =
secure computing environment of some sort.

The main thing is that an implementor does not need to choose between =
CWT and JWT because of claims that are available in one and not the =
other.


>=20
>> I=E2=80=99m not clear yet if we need to some how mark CWT and JWTs =
some how
>> when they are used for entity attestation. Maybe you can always tell =
by
>> context. Maybe not.
>=20
> To disguish JWT vs CWT?
> A JWT probably always starts with "{" :-)
> A CWT probably always starts with CBOR tag 61.

To distinguish the use of CWT for attestation from the use of CWT for =
authentication or other. Same to distinguish the use of JWT for =
attestation from the use of JWT for authentication. You might not be =
able to tell by the claim set.=20

I know you can tell in some use cases by the way it is carried in the =
protocol. For example if an EAT is used for attestation in FIDO, the =
FIDO protocol will clearly label it as attestation. Probably in a YANG =
RPC used with a router, it will also be clearly labeled as an =
attestation.  But maybe there are some contexts that it is not.=20

This has some similarity to X.509 extended key use. You say whether the =
key is used for email encryption, server authentication, code signing=E2=80=
=A6

As I said, I don=E2=80=99t have a strong opinion on this one way or =
another, but it seems like part of figuring out how CWT and JWT are used =
for EAT.

LL


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Hi =
Michael,<br class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jun 25, 2019, at 8:18 AM, Michael =
Richardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca" =
class=3D"">mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"Singleton"><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">We =
will not modify the main rules given in the CWT and JWT RFCs for for<br =
class=3D"">registration of new =
claims.&nbsp;</blockquote></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Will do even more reading on the labels / keys / =
registration issue and get back.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"Singleton"><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">It =
doesn=E2=80=99t make sense to me to not have CWTs and JWTs used for<br =
class=3D"">attestation as anything but equivalent.<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">Due to the signature, they are not interchangeable.</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">While many constrained devices =
would prefer CWTs, and most non-constrained</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">environments can affort to have =
two libraries, I wonder if we can prefer CWT?</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">At the same time, I've heard =
that some vendors have JSON libraries already</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">and feel that CWT would require =
new work. &nbsp;I'm not convinced, because I think</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">that the distance between JSON =
and JWT involves adding a crypto library, and</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">that's significant.</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Here's =
what I meant when I used the word equivalent:</div><div>- &nbsp;Claims =
in CWT and JWT have the same expressive power</div><div>- Any claim we =
standardize for JWT is also standardized for CWT and vice =
versa</div><div>- A standard claim in JWT has the same semantics as a =
standard claim in CWT and vice versa</div><div>- The information model =
is the same for both (see&nbsp;</div><div>- You never run into this: =
=E2=80=9Cif you were using a CWT for attestation for claim XXX it works =
great, but unfortunately JWT based attestations can=E2=80=99t do =
that"</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>The syntax (data model) of the =
claims is obviously different as is the signature.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>I=E2=80=99m not saying conversion back and forth =
is part of equivalence or is a goal, though it does seem like something =
that would be nice to have. Obviously, the steps to do that are roughly: =
1) Verify the signature on the original, 2) parse each claim, 3) =
generate the new syntax for each claim, 4) re sign in the new format. =
And do this is in a secure computing environment of some =
sort.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>The main thing is that an =
implementor does not need to choose between CWT and JWT because of =
claims that are available in one and not the other.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"Singleton"><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">I=E2=80=99m not clear yet if we need =
to some how mark CWT and JWTs some how<br class=3D"">when they are used =
for entity attestation. Maybe you can always tell by<br =
class=3D"">context. Maybe not.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">To disguish JWT vs =
CWT?</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">A JWT =
probably always starts with "{" :-)</span><br style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">A CWT probably always starts with CBOR tag =
61.</span></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">To=
 distinguish the use of CWT for attestation from the use of CWT for =
authentication or other. Same to distinguish the use of JWT for =
attestation from the use of JWT for authentication. You might not be =
able to tell by the claim set.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I know you can tell in some use cases =
by the way it is carried in the protocol. For example if an EAT is used =
for attestation in FIDO, the FIDO protocol will clearly label it as =
attestation. Probably in a YANG RPC used with a router, it will also be =
clearly labeled as an attestation. &nbsp;But maybe there are some =
contexts that it is not.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This has some similarity to X.509 =
extended key use. You say whether the key is used for email encryption, =
server authentication, code signing=E2=80=A6</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">As I said, I don=E2=80=99t have a =
strong opinion on this one way or another, but it seems like part of =
figuring out how CWT and JWT are used for EAT.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_12CE0BCA-C52E-4E34-BC60-40C5433B5F35--


From nobody Wed Jun 26 10:44:13 2019
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Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2019 12:44:04 -0500
From: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
Cc: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, rats@ietf.org
Message-ID: <20190626174336.GB18345@kduck.mit.edu>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] EAT / CWT / JWT
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On Tue, Jun 25, 2019 at 09:30:21AM -0700, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
> Hi Michael,
> 
> > On Jun 25, 2019, at 8:18 AM, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:
> > 
> >> We will not modify the main rules given in the CWT and JWT RFCs for for
> >> registration of new claims. 
> 
> Will do even more reading on the labels / keys / registration issue and get back.
> 
> 
> >> It doesn’t make sense to me to not have CWTs and JWTs used for
> >> attestation as anything but equivalent.
> > 
> > Due to the signature, they are not interchangeable.
> > While many constrained devices would prefer CWTs, and most non-constrained
> > environments can affort to have two libraries, I wonder if we can prefer CWT?
> > 
> > At the same time, I've heard that some vendors have JSON libraries already
> > and feel that CWT would require new work.  I'm not convinced, because I think
> > that the distance between JSON and JWT involves adding a crypto library, and
> > that's significant.
> 
> Here's what I meant when I used the word equivalent:
> -  Claims in CWT and JWT have the same expressive power
> - Any claim we standardize for JWT is also standardized for CWT and vice versa
> - A standard claim in JWT has the same semantics as a standard claim in CWT and vice versa
> - The information model is the same for both (see 
> - You never run into this: “if you were using a CWT for attestation for claim XXX it works great, but unfortunately JWT based attestations can’t do that"
> 
> The syntax (data model) of the claims is obviously different as is the signature.
> 
> I’m not saying conversion back and forth is part of equivalence or is a goal, though it does seem like something that would be nice to have. Obviously, the steps to do that are roughly: 1) Verify the signature on the original, 2) parse each claim, 3) generate the new syntax for each claim, 4) re sign in the new format. And do this is in a secure computing environment of some sort.
> 
> The main thing is that an implementor does not need to choose between CWT and JWT because of claims that are available in one and not the other.
> 
> 
> > 
> >> I’m not clear yet if we need to some how mark CWT and JWTs some how
> >> when they are used for entity attestation. Maybe you can always tell by
> >> context. Maybe not.
> > 
> > To disguish JWT vs CWT?
> > A JWT probably always starts with "{" :-)
> > A CWT probably always starts with CBOR tag 61.
> 
> To distinguish the use of CWT for attestation from the use of CWT for authentication or other. Same to distinguish the use of JWT for attestation from the use of JWT for authentication. You might not be able to tell by the claim set. 
> 
> I know you can tell in some use cases by the way it is carried in the protocol. For example if an EAT is used for attestation in FIDO, the FIDO protocol will clearly label it as attestation. Probably in a YANG RPC used with a router, it will also be clearly labeled as an attestation.  But maybe there are some contexts that it is not. 
> 
> This has some similarity to X.509 extended key use. You say whether the key is used for email encryption, server authentication, code signing…
> 
> As I said, I don’t have a strong opinion on this one way or another, but it seems like part of figuring out how CWT and JWT are used for EAT.

Is this just a matter of defining a JWS "typ" parameter (i.e., media type)
for our usage [https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7515#section-4.1.9]?  (I did
not check for the COSE analogue.)

-Ben


From nobody Wed Jun 26 11:33:23 2019
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Subject: Re: [Rats] EAT / CWT / JWT
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Comment below

> On Jun 26, 2019, at 10:44 AM, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> wrote:
>=20
> On Tue, Jun 25, 2019 at 09:30:21AM -0700, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>> Hi Michael,
>>=20
>>> On Jun 25, 2019, at 8:18 AM, Michael Richardson =
<mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:
>>> ...
>>>> I=E2=80=99m not clear yet if we need to some how mark CWT and JWTs =
some how
>>>> when they are used for entity attestation. Maybe you can always =
tell by
>>>> context. Maybe not.
>>>=20
>>> To disguish JWT vs CWT?
>>> A JWT probably always starts with "{" :-)
>>> A CWT probably always starts with CBOR tag 61.
>>=20
>> To distinguish the use of CWT for attestation from the use of CWT for =
authentication or other. Same to distinguish the use of JWT for =
attestation from the use of JWT for authentication. You might not be =
able to tell by the claim set.=20
>>=20
>> I know you can tell in some use cases by the way it is carried in the =
protocol. For example if an EAT is used for attestation in FIDO, the =
FIDO protocol will clearly label it as attestation. Probably in a YANG =
RPC used with a router, it will also be clearly labeled as an =
attestation.  But maybe there are some contexts that it is not.=20
>>=20
>> This has some similarity to X.509 extended key use. You say whether =
the key is used for email encryption, server authentication, code =
signing=E2=80=A6
>>=20
>> As I said, I don=E2=80=99t have a strong opinion on this one way or =
another, but it seems like part of figuring out how CWT and JWT are used =
for EAT.
>=20
> Is this just a matter of defining a JWS "typ" parameter (i.e., media =
type)
> for our usage [https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7515#section-4.1.9]? =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7515#section-4.1.9]?>  (I did
> not check for the COSE analogue.

Yes, there=E2=80=99s a COSE analog, the content-type header. The IANA =
registry is here =
<https://www.iana.org/assignments/core-parameters/core-parameters.xhtml#co=
ntent-formats>. Seems pretty similar, but not the same (as often seems =
to be the case with CWT and JWT).

LL







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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div>Comment below</div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Jun 26, 2019, at 10:44 AM, =
Benjamin Kaduk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kaduk@mit.edu" =
class=3D"">kaduk@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">On Tue, Jun 25, 2019 at =
09:30:21AM -0700, Laurence Lundblade wrote:</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">Hi =
Michael,<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">On Jun 25, 2019, at 8:18 AM, Michael Richardson &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca" =
class=3D"">mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca</a>&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D"">...</blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">I=E2=80=99m not clear =
yet if we need to some how mark CWT and JWTs some how<br class=3D"">when =
they are used for entity attestation. Maybe you can always tell by<br =
class=3D"">context. Maybe not.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D"">To disguish JWT vs CWT?<br class=3D"">A JWT probably always =
starts with "{" :-)<br class=3D"">A CWT probably always starts with CBOR =
tag 61.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">To distinguish the use =
of CWT for attestation from the use of CWT for authentication or other. =
Same to distinguish the use of JWT for attestation from the use of JWT =
for authentication. You might not be able to tell by the claim set.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">I know you can tell in some use cases by the way it is =
carried in the protocol. For example if an EAT is used for attestation =
in FIDO, the FIDO protocol will clearly label it as attestation. =
Probably in a YANG RPC used with a router, it will also be clearly =
labeled as an attestation. &nbsp;But maybe there are some contexts that =
it is not.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">This has some similarity to X.509 extended key =
use. You say whether the key is used for email encryption, server =
authentication, code signing=E2=80=A6<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">As I =
said, I don=E2=80=99t have a strong opinion on this one way or another, =
but it seems like part of figuring out how CWT and JWT are used for =
EAT.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">Is this just a matter of defining a JWS "typ" parameter =
(i.e., media type)</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">for our usage [</span><a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7515#section-4.1.9]?" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7515#section-4.1.9]?</a><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>&nbsp;(I did</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">not check for the COSE =
analogue.</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div>Yes, =
there=E2=80=99s a COSE analog, the content-type header. The IANA =
registry is&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://www.iana.org/assignments/core-parameters/core-parameters.x=
html#content-formats" class=3D"">here</a>. Seems pretty similar, but not =
the same (as often seems to be the case with CWT and JWT).</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>LL</div><div><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=

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Subject: [Rats] Claims types and registration requirements
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Here=E2=80=99s my infographic depicting what I understand from CWT and =
JWT. Is it right?



I think we=E2=80=99re primarily interested in registered claims and =
their requirements.

LL


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Here=E2=80=99s my infographic depicting what I understand =
from CWT and JWT. Is it right?<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><img apple-inline=3D"yes" =
id=3D"AF044FFC-D036-4728-8B63-CCC5C34BF9A3" width=3D"657" height=3D"272" =
src=3D"cid:977D664E-21C7-425C-8032-D42570335630@attlocal.net" =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I =
think we=E2=80=99re primarily interested in registered claims and their =
requirements.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From nobody Thu Jun 27 15:14:46 2019
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Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 17:14:37 -0500
From: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
To: Thomas Hardjono <hardjono@mit.edu>
Cc: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] More use cases for draft-richardson-rats-usecases-00
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On Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 03:04:12PM +0000, Thomas Hardjono wrote:
> 
> Folks,
> 
> What's the best way to contribute use-cases to draft-richardson-rats-usecases-00 ?
> 
> Should I post the text on the mail-list for discussion.

Hi Thomas,

That's never wrong, so in the absence of other guidance please go ahead.

-Ben


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From nobody Fri Jun 28 16:01:36 2019
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From: "\"IETF Secretariat\"" <agenda@ietf.org>
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Subject: [Rats] rats - Requested sessions have been scheduled for IETF 105
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Dear Kathleen Moriarty,

The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled.
Below is the scheduled session information followed by
the original request. 


    rats Session 1 (1:30 requested)
    Wednesday, 24 July 2019, Afternoon Session II 1550-1650
    Room Name: Van Horne size: 130
    ---------------------------------------------
    rats Session 2 (1:30 requested)
    Thursday, 25 July 2019, Afternoon Session II 1550-1720
    Room Name: Sainte-Catherine size: 100
    ---------------------------------------------


iCalendar: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/105/sessions/rats.ics

Request Information:


---------------------------------------------------------
Working Group Name: Remote ATtestation ProcedureS
Area Name: Security Area
Session Requester: Kathleen Moriarty

Number of Sessions: 2
Length of Session(s):  1.5 Hours, 1.5 Hours
Number of Attendees: 40
Conflicts to Avoid: 
 First Priority: secdispatch saag mile acme tls sacm teep suit netconf




People who must be present:
  Ned Smith
  Kathleen Moriarty
  Nancy Cam-Winget
  Roman Danyliw

Resources Requested:

Special Requests:
  If 2 sessions at 1.5 hours is not possible, 1 session at 2.5 hours is the minimum we&#39;ll need to sort through items unless the interim goes swimmingly.
---------------------------------------------------------


From nobody Fri Jun 28 19:03:59 2019
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Here=E2=80=99s an update to the UEID text that hopefully addresses the =
discussion from April. I pasted in below rather than a PR as I am =
waiting for access to the Rats GitHub.=20

LL

3.3. =
<file:///Users/laurencelundblade/EAT/ueid/draft-ietf-mandyam-eat.html#rfc.=
section.3.3> Universal Entity ID Claim (ueid) =
<file:///Users/laurencelundblade/EAT/ueid/draft-ietf-mandyam-eat.html#univ=
ersal-entity-id-claim-ueid>
UEID=E2=80=99s identify individual manufactured entities / devices such =
as a mobile phone, a water meter, a Bluetooth speaker or a networked =
security camera. It may identify the entire device or a submodule or =
subsystem. It does not identify types, models or classes of devices. It =
is akin to a serial number, though it does not have to be sequential.
UEID=E2=80=99s must be universally and globally unique across =
manufacturers and countries. UEIDs must also be unique across protocols =
and systems, as tokens are intended to be embedded in many different =
protocols and systems. No two products anywhere, even in completely =
different industries made by two different manufacturers in two =
different countries should have the same UEID (if they are not global =
and universal in this way then relying parties receiving them will have =
to track other characteristics of the device to keep devices distinct =
between manufacturers).
The UEID should be permanent. It should never change for a given device =
/ entity. In addition, it should not be reprogrammable.
UEID=E2=80=99s are variable length. The recommended maximum is 33 bytes =
(1 type byte and 256 bits). The recommended minimum is 17 bytes (1 type =
and 128 bits) because fewer bytes endanger the universal uniqueness.
When the entity constructs the UEID, the first byte is a type and the =
following bytes the ID for that type. Several types are allowed to =
accommodate different industries and different manufacturing processes =
and to give options to avoid paying fees for certain types of =
manufacturer registrations.
Creation of new types requires a Standards Action [RFC8126] =
<file:///Users/laurencelundblade/EAT/ueid/draft-ietf-mandyam-eat.html#RFC8=
126>.
UEID Composition Types
Type Byte	Type Name	Specification
0x01	RAND	This is a 128- to 256-bit random number generated once =
and stored in the device. This may be constructed by concatenating =
enough identifiers to be universally unique and then feeding the =
concatenation through a cryptographic hash function. It may also be a =
cryptographic quality random number generate once at the beginning of =
the life of the device and stored.
0x02	IEEE EUI	This makes use of the IEEE company =
identification registry. An EUI is made up of an OUI and OUI-36 or a =
CID, different registered company identifiers, and some unique =
per-device identifier. EUIs are often the same as or similar to MAC =
addresses. (Note that while devices with multiple network interfaces may =
have multiple MAC addresses, there is only one UEID for a device) TODO: =
normative references to IEEE.
0x03	IMEI	This is a 14-digit identifier consisting of an 8-digit =
Type Allocation Code and a six-digit serial number allocated by the =
manufacturer, which SHALL be encoded as a binary integer over 48 bits. =
The IMEI value encoded SHALL NOT include Luhn checksum or SVN =
information.
0x04	EUI-48	This is a 48-bit identifier formed by concatenating the =
24-bit OUI with a 24-bit identifier assigned by the organisation that =
purchased the OUI.
0x05	EUI-60	This is a 60-bit identifier formed by concatenating the =
24-bit OUI with a 36-bit identifier assigned by the organisation that =
purchased the OUI.
0x06	EUI-64	This is a 64-bit identifier formed by concatenating the =
24-bit OUI with a 40-bit identifier assigned by the organisation that =
purchased the OUI.
UEID=E2=80=99s are not for direct use by humans (e.g., printing on the =
case of a device), so no textual representation is defined.
The consumer (the relying party) of a UEID MUST treat a UEID as a =
completely opaque string of bytes and not make any use of its internal =
structure. For example, they should not use the OUI part of a type 0x02 =
UEID to identify the manufacturer of the device. Instead they should use =
the OUI claim that is defined elsewhere. The reasons for this are:
UEIDs types may vary freely from one manufacturer to the next.
New types of UEIDs may be created. For example, a type 0x07 UEID may be =
created based on some other manufacturer registration scheme.
Device manufacturers are allowed to change from one type of UEID to =
another anytime they want. For example, they may find they can optimize =
their manufacturing by switching from type 0x01 to type 0x02 or vice =
versa. The requirement of the manufacturer is only that UEIDs be =
universally unique.


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<html><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Here=E2=80=99s an =
update to the UEID text that hopefully addresses the discussion from =
April. I pasted in below rather than a PR as I am waiting for access to =
the Rats GitHub.&nbsp;<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><h1 id=3D"rfc.section.3.3" style=3D"font-family: =
&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-weight: =
500; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); line-height: 43.20000076293945px; margin: =
0.8em 0px 0.3em; caret-color: rgb(51, 51, 51);" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12px;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"file:///Users/laurencelundblade/EAT/ueid/draft-ietf-mandyam-eat.ht=
ml#rfc.section.3.3" style=3D"text-decoration: none; color: rgb(51, 51, =
51);" class=3D"">3.3.</a>&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"file:///Users/laurencelundblade/EAT/ueid/draft-ietf-mandyam-eat.ht=
ml#universal-entity-id-claim-ueid" id=3D"universal-entity-id-claim-ueid" =
style=3D"text-decoration: none; color: rgb(51, 51, 51);" =
class=3D"">Universal Entity ID Claim (ueid)</a></span></h1><div =
style=3D"padding: 0px; margin: 0.5em 0px; caret-color: rgb(51, 51, 51); =
color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: &quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;, =
Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D"">UEID=E2=80=99s identify =
individual manufactured entities / devices such as a mobile phone, a =
water meter, a Bluetooth speaker or a networked security camera. It may =
identify the entire device or a submodule or subsystem. It does not =
identify types, models or classes of devices. It is akin to a serial =
number, though it does not have to be sequential.</div><div =
style=3D"padding: 0px; margin: 0.5em 0px; caret-color: rgb(51, 51, 51); =
color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: &quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;, =
Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D"">UEID=E2=80=99s must be =
universally and globally unique across manufacturers and countries. =
UEIDs must also be unique across protocols and systems, as tokens are =
intended to be embedded in many different protocols and systems. No two =
products anywhere, even in completely different industries made by two =
different manufacturers in two different countries should have the same =
UEID (if they are not global and universal in this way then relying =
parties receiving them will have to track other characteristics of the =
device to keep devices distinct between manufacturers).</div><div =
style=3D"padding: 0px; margin: 0.5em 0px; caret-color: rgb(51, 51, 51); =
color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: &quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;, =
Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D"">The UEID should be permanent. =
It should never change for a given device / entity. In addition, it =
should not be reprogrammable.</div><div style=3D"padding: 0px; margin: =
0.5em 0px; caret-color: rgb(51, 51, 51); color: rgb(51, 51, 51); =
font-family: &quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">UEID=E2=80=99s are variable length. The recommended maximum =
is 33 bytes (1 type byte and 256 bits). The recommended minimum is 17 =
bytes (1 type and 128 bits) because fewer bytes endanger the universal =
uniqueness.</div><div style=3D"padding: 0px; margin: 0.5em 0px; =
caret-color: rgb(51, 51, 51); color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: =
&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D"">When=
 the entity constructs the UEID, the first byte is a type and the =
following bytes the ID for that type. Several types are allowed to =
accommodate different industries and different manufacturing processes =
and to give options to avoid paying fees for certain types of =
manufacturer registrations.</div><div style=3D"padding: 0px; margin: =
0.5em 0px; caret-color: rgb(51, 51, 51); color: rgb(51, 51, 51); =
font-family: &quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Creation of new types requires a Standards Action&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"file:///Users/laurencelundblade/EAT/ueid/draft-ietf-mandyam-eat.ht=
ml#RFC8126" class=3D"xref" style=3D"text-decoration: none; color: =
rgb(42, 100, 150);">[RFC8126]</a>.</div><div id=3D"rfc.table.1" =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(51, 51, 51); color: rgb(51, 51, 51); =
font-family: &quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""></div><div id=3D"ueid-types-table" style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(51, 51, 51); color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: &quot;Helvetica =
Neue&quot;, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D""></div><table =
cellpadding=3D"3" cellspacing=3D"0" class=3D"full tt center" =
style=3D"margin-left: 0em; border-collapse: collapse; caret-color: =
rgb(51, 51, 51); color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: &quot;Helvetica =
Neue&quot;, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"><caption class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12px;" class=3D"">UEID Composition =
Types</span></caption><thead class=3D""><tr class=3D""><th class=3D"left" =
style=3D"border-bottom-width: 2px; border-bottom-style: solid; =
border-bottom-color: rgb(221, 221, 221); background-color: rgb(249, 249, =
249);"><span style=3D"font-size: 12px;" class=3D"">Type =
Byte</span></th><th class=3D"left" style=3D"border-bottom-width: 2px; =
border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-color: rgb(221, 221, 221); =
background-color: rgb(249, 249, 249);"><span style=3D"font-size: 12px;" =
class=3D"">Type Name</span></th><th class=3D"left" =
style=3D"border-bottom-width: 2px; border-bottom-style: solid; =
border-bottom-color: rgb(221, 221, 221); background-color: rgb(249, 249, =
249);"><span style=3D"font-size: 12px;" =
class=3D"">Specification</span></th></tr></thead><tbody class=3D""><tr =
class=3D""><td class=3D"left" style=3D"border-top-width: 1px; =
border-top-style: solid; border-top-color: rgb(221, 221, 221); =
vertical-align: top; background-color: rgb(249, 249, 249);"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12px;" class=3D"">0x01</span></td><td class=3D"left" =
style=3D"border-top-width: 1px; border-top-style: solid; =
border-top-color: rgb(221, 221, 221); vertical-align: top; =
background-color: rgb(249, 249, 249);"><span style=3D"font-size: 12px;" =
class=3D"">RAND</span></td><td class=3D"left" style=3D"border-top-width: =
1px; border-top-style: solid; border-top-color: rgb(221, 221, 221); =
vertical-align: top; background-color: rgb(249, 249, 249);"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12px;" class=3D"">This is a 128- to 256-bit random =
number generated once and stored in the device. This may be constructed =
by concatenating enough identifiers to be universally unique and then =
feeding the concatenation through a cryptographic hash function. It may =
also be a cryptographic quality random number generate once at the =
beginning of the life of the device and stored.</span></td></tr><tr =
class=3D""><td class=3D"left" style=3D"border-top-width: 1px; =
border-top-style: solid; border-top-color: rgb(221, 221, 221); =
vertical-align: top;"><span style=3D"font-size: 12px;" =
class=3D"">0x02</span></td><td class=3D"left" style=3D"border-top-width: =
1px; border-top-style: solid; border-top-color: rgb(221, 221, 221); =
vertical-align: top;"><span style=3D"font-size: 12px;" class=3D"">IEEE =
EUI</span></td><td class=3D"left" style=3D"border-top-width: 1px; =
border-top-style: solid; border-top-color: rgb(221, 221, 221); =
vertical-align: top;"><span style=3D"font-size: 12px;" class=3D"">This =
makes use of the IEEE company identification registry. An EUI is made up =
of an OUI and OUI-36 or a CID, different registered company identifiers, =
and some unique per-device identifier. EUIs are often the same as or =
similar to MAC addresses. (Note that while devices with multiple network =
interfaces may have multiple MAC addresses, there is only one UEID for a =
device) TODO: normative references to IEEE.</span></td></tr><tr =
class=3D""><td class=3D"left" style=3D"border-top-width: 1px; =
border-top-style: solid; border-top-color: rgb(221, 221, 221); =
vertical-align: top; background-color: rgb(249, 249, 249);"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12px;" class=3D"">0x03</span></td><td class=3D"left" =
style=3D"border-top-width: 1px; border-top-style: solid; =
border-top-color: rgb(221, 221, 221); vertical-align: top; =
background-color: rgb(249, 249, 249);"><span style=3D"font-size: 12px;" =
class=3D"">IMEI</span></td><td class=3D"left" style=3D"border-top-width: =
1px; border-top-style: solid; border-top-color: rgb(221, 221, 221); =
vertical-align: top; background-color: rgb(249, 249, 249);"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12px;" class=3D"">This is a 14-digit identifier =
consisting of an 8-digit Type Allocation Code and a six-digit serial =
number allocated by the manufacturer, which SHALL be encoded as a binary =
integer over 48 bits. The IMEI value encoded SHALL NOT include Luhn =
checksum or SVN information.</span></td></tr><tr class=3D""><td =
class=3D"left" style=3D"border-top-width: 1px; border-top-style: solid; =
border-top-color: rgb(221, 221, 221); vertical-align: top;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12px;" class=3D"">0x04</span></td><td class=3D"left" =
style=3D"border-top-width: 1px; border-top-style: solid; =
border-top-color: rgb(221, 221, 221); vertical-align: top;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12px;" class=3D"">EUI-48</span></td><td class=3D"left"=
 style=3D"border-top-width: 1px; border-top-style: solid; =
border-top-color: rgb(221, 221, 221); vertical-align: top;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12px;" class=3D"">This is a 48-bit identifier formed =
by concatenating the 24-bit OUI with a 24-bit identifier assigned by the =
organisation that purchased the OUI.</span></td></tr><tr class=3D""><td =
class=3D"left" style=3D"border-top-width: 1px; border-top-style: solid; =
border-top-color: rgb(221, 221, 221); vertical-align: top; =
background-color: rgb(249, 249, 249);"><span style=3D"font-size: 12px;" =
class=3D"">0x05</span></td><td class=3D"left" style=3D"border-top-width: =
1px; border-top-style: solid; border-top-color: rgb(221, 221, 221); =
vertical-align: top; background-color: rgb(249, 249, 249);"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12px;" class=3D"">EUI-60</span></td><td class=3D"left"=
 style=3D"border-top-width: 1px; border-top-style: solid; =
border-top-color: rgb(221, 221, 221); vertical-align: top; =
background-color: rgb(249, 249, 249);"><span style=3D"font-size: 12px;" =
class=3D"">This is a 60-bit identifier formed by concatenating the =
24-bit OUI with a 36-bit identifier assigned by the organisation that =
purchased the OUI.</span></td></tr><tr class=3D""><td class=3D"left" =
style=3D"border-top-width: 1px; border-top-style: solid; =
border-top-color: rgb(221, 221, 221); vertical-align: top;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12px;" class=3D"">0x06</span></td><td class=3D"left" =
style=3D"border-top-width: 1px; border-top-style: solid; =
border-top-color: rgb(221, 221, 221); vertical-align: top;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12px;" class=3D"">EUI-64</span></td><td class=3D"left"=
 style=3D"border-top-width: 1px; border-top-style: solid; =
border-top-color: rgb(221, 221, 221); vertical-align: top;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12px;" class=3D"">This is a 64-bit identifier formed =
by concatenating the 24-bit OUI with a 40-bit identifier assigned by the =
organisation that purchased the =
OUI.</span></td></tr></tbody></table><div style=3D"padding: 0px; margin: =
0.5em 0px; caret-color: rgb(51, 51, 51); color: rgb(51, 51, 51); =
font-family: &quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">UEID=E2=80=99s are not for direct use by humans (e.g., =
printing on the case of a device), so no textual representation is =
defined.</div><div style=3D"padding: 0px; margin: 0.5em 0px; =
caret-color: rgb(51, 51, 51); color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: =
&quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D"">The =
consumer (the relying party) of a UEID MUST treat a UEID as a completely =
opaque string of bytes and not make any use of its internal structure. =
For example, they should not use the OUI part of a type 0x02 UEID to =
identify the manufacturer of the device. Instead they should use the OUI =
claim that is defined elsewhere. The reasons for this are:</div><p =
style=3D"padding: 0px; margin: 0.5em 0px; caret-color: rgb(51, 51, 51); =
color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: &quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;, =
Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D""></p><ul style=3D"padding: 0px; =
margin: 0.5em 0px 0.5em 2em; caret-color: rgb(51, 51, 51); color: =
rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: &quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;, Helvetica, =
Arial, sans-serif;" class=3D""><li style=3D"padding: 0px; margin: 0.5em =
0px;" class=3D"">UEIDs types may vary freely from one manufacturer to =
the next.</li><li style=3D"padding: 0px; margin: 0.5em 0px;" =
class=3D"">New types of UEIDs may be created. For example, a type 0x07 =
UEID may be created based on some other manufacturer registration =
scheme.</li><li style=3D"padding: 0px; margin: 0.5em 0px;" =
class=3D"">Device manufacturers are allowed to change from one type of =
UEID to another anytime they want. For example, they may find they can =
optimize their manufacturing by switching from type 0x01 to type 0x02 or =
vice versa. The requirement of the manufacturer is only that UEIDs be =
universally unique.</li></ul><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></body></html>=

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From: Giridhar Mandyam <mandyam@qti.qualcomm.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Live: https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg
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Giridhar Mandyam <mandyam@qti.qualcomm.com> wrote:
    > Thanks Nancy.

    > Note that EAT already has a GH repo -
    > https://github.com/eat-ietf-wg/eat.  Can we re-use it?

yes, just got to the bottom of the Settings and Transfer ownership.

    > Also note that the current version of EAT is in Kramdown.  I have been
    > unable to find any way to do an automated preview of PR=E2=80=99s for=
 Kramdown.

What do you mean?
The pull request is going to be in the source format, it won't get formatted
for you.

=2D-
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-




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From: "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>
To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, Giridhar Mandyam <mandyam@qti.qualcomm.com>
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