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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] Some info model comments
Thread-Index: AQHVQ0ALRD933wS9FkeuOeeo3dxIVabc7xwAgACIFgCAAAJrAIAGRjMAgAL5EIA=
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2019 19:31:18 +0000
Message-ID: <D9351CB7-0AF7-4BAE-ABFE-E06971A699D2@intel.com>
References: <A838337B-54F9-49D0-A43B-1BE0A533E091@island-resort.com> <HE1PR0701MB2267E7FC96B755E34AB203828FC00@HE1PR0701MB2267.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <996741CC-C71D-4C3F-829E-BD8B1D08980A@island-resort.com> <9E1496F2-42E9-48B2-8BEC-DEEC996362FF@redhoundsoftware.com> <a9e670ca-5479-60cd-c8a3-9109bbc16465@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Some info model comments
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From nobody Fri Aug  2 09:35:06 2019
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Subject: [Rats] Info & Data Models
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=46rom WG meetings, side conversations and reading it seems to me that =
=E2=80=9Cinformation model" is being used an a few ways by RATS folks:

1) One description common to several serialization formats
Idea here is that one primary description exists for an information =
element (e.g. each claim) and it is common to the serializations in =
CBOR, JSON, ASN.1 and so on. This is the classic definition in RFC 3444 =
and RFC 3198 and what was done in draft-ietf-rats-eat-01.

2) One info model for ALL of RATS
Idea is that there is only one info model in one document that is common =
for every draft output by the RATS WG. It would cover claims in tokens =
as well as information elements in conveyance protocols. Elements marked =
=E2=80=9CP=E2=80=9D in draft-birkholz-rats-information-model-00 are for =
conveyance protocol information elements and those marked =E2=80=9CS=E2=80=
=9D and =E2=80=9CH=E2=80=9D are claims.
=20
3) That the payload claims/assertions need more sophisticated structure
Idea here is for more nesting, sub categories and rich structure for =
claims.  Note that EAT already has both nesting and sub modules. I have =
always thought they needed improvement, but they are still powerful as =
they are.

4) That there be more typing and abstract data structures
Idea here is we define some generic types like hashes, date stamps, ways =
to list SW components in the abstract. Then different concrete claim =
instantiations can use them. So can claims registered with IANA.


I think 1) is essential because we clearly need multiple serialization =
formats, at the minimum CBOR and JSON. I thought this was the main =
reason our charter mentions info and data models.

I think 2) is impractical because the span is too large. There will be =
several RATS documents they will evolve at different rates and be =
authored by different people for different purposes. For example, claims =
will be in one document and conveyance protocols in another. We can=E2=80=99=
t be changing the one common info model document every time an =
information element in the claims or conveyance protocol document =
changes.=20

I do however think we should try for one info model for the =
claims/assertions/evidence.

I always figured there would be a lot of work for 3) and 4), though it =
didn=E2=80=99t occur to me that they were implied by the info and data =
model separation (you can do 3 and 4 without info / data model =
separation). At any rate, the means we use to express the info model =
will be the same as we use for 3) and 4).=20


I=E2=80=99d like to do work on 3) and 4) in the context of the EAT draft =
and CDDL now. I hope that we will end up with a claims info and data =
model in CDDL like in the EAT draft and separate from the conveyance =
protocol, but if we don=E2=80=99t this work on 3) and 4) will still be =
good useful work. I think the work on 3) and 4) also lines up with the =
questions Ned is raising about signed and not signed claims.

LL



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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
dir=3D"auto" style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div dir=3D"auto" =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: =
after-white-space;" class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" =
dir=3D"auto" class=3D"">=46rom WG meetings, side conversations and =
reading it seems to me that =E2=80=9Cinformation model" is being used an =
a few ways by RATS folks:<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">1) One description common to several serialization =
formats</div><div class=3D"">Idea here is that one primary description =
exists for an information element (e.g. each claim) and it is common to =
the serializations in CBOR, JSON, ASN.1 and so on. This is the classic =
definition in RFC 3444 and RFC 3198 and what was done in =
draft-ietf-rats-eat-01.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">2) One info model for ALL of RATS</div><div class=3D"">Idea =
is that there is only one info model in one document that is common for =
every draft output by the RATS WG. It would cover claims in tokens as =
well as information elements in conveyance protocols. Elements marked =
=E2=80=9CP=E2=80=9D in draft-birkholz-rats-information-model-00 are for =
conveyance protocol information elements and those marked =E2=80=9CS=E2=80=
=9D and =E2=80=9CH=E2=80=9D are claims.</div><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</div><div class=3D"">3) That the payload =
claims/assertions need more sophisticated structure</div><div =
class=3D"">Idea here is for more nesting, sub categories and rich =
structure for claims. &nbsp;Note that EAT already has both nesting and =
sub modules. I have always thought they needed improvement, but they are =
still powerful as they are.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div=
 class=3D"">4) That there be more typing and abstract data =
structures</div><div class=3D"">Idea here is we define some generic =
types like hashes, date stamps, ways to list SW components in the =
abstract. Then different concrete claim instantiations can use them. So =
can claims registered with IANA.</div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I =
think 1) is essential because we clearly need multiple serialization =
formats, at the minimum CBOR and JSON. I thought this was the main =
reason our charter mentions info and data models.</div><div class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I think 2) is impractical because the =
span is too large. There will be several RATS documents they will evolve =
at different rates and be authored by different people for different =
purposes. For example, claims will be in one document and conveyance =
protocols in another. We can=E2=80=99t be changing the one common info =
model document every time an information element in the claims or =
conveyance protocol document changes.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I do however think we should try for =
one info model for the claims/assertions/evidence.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I always figured there =
would be a lot of work for 3) and 4), though it didn=E2=80=99t occur to =
me that they were implied by the info and data model separation (you can =
do 3 and 4 without info / data model separation). At any rate, the means =
we use to express the info model will be the same as we use for 3) and =
4).&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I=E2=80=99d like to do work on 3) and =
4) in the context of the EAT draft and CDDL now. I hope that we will end =
up with a claims info and data model in CDDL like in the EAT draft and =
separate from the conveyance protocol, but if we don=E2=80=99t this work =
on 3) and 4) will still be good useful work. I think the work on 3) and =
4) also lines up with the questions Ned is raising about signed and not =
signed claims.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div></div></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_88BAD4DD-FC9B-4C28-887C-271431FA9795--


From nobody Sun Aug  4 11:38:33 2019
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Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2019 11:37:38 -0700
To: rats@ietf.org
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Subject: [Rats] No root of trust requirement in RATS/EAT
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An Android phone often looks like this:
  - Linux / Android apps
  - Linux kernel
  - TA=E2=80=99s (Trusted Apps =E2=80=94 apps running the TEE)
  - TEE kernel

It must be allowed for any one of these to generate RATS/EAT =
attestations. It might be that only the Android app generates RATS/EAT =
attestations. This phone is just one example. Other devices, like cars, =
may be similar.

If there is a normative or descriptive text saying a root of trust is =
required to generate an attestation, then we have to redefine root of =
trust to so that Android apps are roots of trust. This is very counter =
to the normal definition of root of trust. By common definition the root =
of trust of the above phone would be the TEE. Such a redefinition for =
RATS would be very confusing. So I don=E2=80=99t think normative text =
should require a root of trust.

My second reason is that I don=E2=80=99t think the IETF should set =
internal security requirements for the internal implementation of an =
end-point:
The TLS RFC does not require an HSM, even in its very extensive security =
considerations
COSE mentions keys should be protected, but only as a recommendation and =
only in security considerations
At the Writing Security Considerations tutorial in Montreal, Yoav Nir =
said that IETF doesn=E2=80=99t get into end-point security internals so =
much
Some of my IETF friends tell me SHOULD and MUST are for interoperability =
aspects of a protocol only

I think it is fine to:
Mention a root of trust as an example
Have lots of text in security considerations about signing key =
protection
Require a root of trust in profile documents, particularly ones outside =
the IETF
Have claims that describe the internal security of an entity

I know that large parts of the TCG and TEE worlds have the root of trust =
as a fundamental part of their architectures. It makes sense there. =
However, these groups fundamentally work on the security internals of =
end points. The IETF does not. It focuses on on-the-wire security. Thus, =
it makes sense that orientations around end-point internal security =
implementation is different.  Some of what goes in the TCG and TEE =
worlds doesn=E2=80=99t carry over to the IETF.

I know reorienting the RATS architecture draft to not hinge on roots of =
trust is a big upheaval, but I think it is necessary.

LL=

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">An =
Android phone often looks like this:<div class=3D"">&nbsp; - Linux / =
Android apps</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; - Linux kernel</div><div =
class=3D"">&nbsp; - TA=E2=80=99s (Trusted Apps =E2=80=94 apps running =
the TEE)</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; - TEE kernel</div><div class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">It must be allowed for any one of =
these to generate RATS/EAT attestations. It might be that only the =
Android app generates RATS/EAT attestations. This phone is just one =
example. Other devices, like cars, may be similar.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If there is a normative =
or descriptive text saying a root of trust is required to generate an =
attestation, then we have to redefine root of trust to so that Android =
apps are roots of trust. This is very counter to the normal definition =
of root of trust. By common definition the root of trust of the above =
phone would be the TEE. Such a redefinition for RATS would be very =
confusing. So I don=E2=80=99t think normative text should require a root =
of trust.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">My =
second reason is that I don=E2=80=99t think the IETF should set internal =
security requirements for the internal implementation of an =
end-point:</div><div class=3D""><ul class=3D"MailOutline"><li =
class=3D"">The TLS RFC does not require an HSM, even in its very =
extensive security considerations</li><li class=3D"">COSE mentions keys =
should be protected, but only as a recommendation and only in security =
considerations</li><li class=3D"">At the Writing Security Considerations =
tutorial in Montreal, Yoav Nir said that IETF doesn=E2=80=99t get into =
end-point security internals so much</li><li class=3D"">Some of my IETF =
friends tell me SHOULD and MUST are for&nbsp;<i =
class=3D"">interoperability</i>&nbsp;aspects of a protocol =
only</li></ul><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I =
think it is fine to:</div><div class=3D""><ul class=3D"MailOutline"><li =
class=3D"">Mention a root of trust as an example</li><li class=3D"">Have =
lots of text in security considerations about signing key =
protection</li><li class=3D"">Require a root of trust in profile =
documents, particularly ones outside the IETF</li><li class=3D"">Have =
claims that describe the internal security of an =
entity</li></ul></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><div =
class=3D"">I know that large parts of the TCG and TEE worlds have the =
root of trust as a fundamental part of their architectures. It makes =
sense there. However, these groups fundamentally work on the security =
internals of end points. The IETF does not. It focuses on on-the-wire =
security. Thus, it makes sense that orientations around end-point =
internal security implementation is different. &nbsp;Some of what goes =
in the TCG and TEE worlds doesn=E2=80=99t carry over to the =
IETF.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I know =
reorienting the RATS architecture draft to not hinge on roots of trust =
is a big upheaval, but I think it is necessary.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">LL</div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_78E53D40-2B9D-46AB-BC27-DD22A9901C6B--


From nobody Sun Aug  4 12:13:01 2019
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To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, rats@ietf.org
References: <2DE09A2A-A6EA-4474-9DBE-8D52B523645B@island-resort.com>
From: Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <987fbfbb-b3f6-c104-878a-b283978ca0f0@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2019 21:12:37 +0200
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Subject: Re: [Rats] No root of trust requirement in RATS/EAT
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On 2019-08-04 20:37, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
> An Android phone often looks like this:
>    - Linux / Android apps
>    - Linux kernel
>    - TA’s (Trusted Apps — apps running the TEE)
>    - TEE kernel
> 
> It must be allowed for any one of these to generate RATS/EAT attestations. It might be that only the Android app generates RATS/EAT attestations. This phone is just one example. Other devices, like cars, may be similar.
> 
> If there is a normative or descriptive text saying a root of trust is required to generate an attestation, then we have to redefine root of trust to so that

> Android apps are roots of trust.

Where does this trust come from and how is it delivered to the concerned party?

Android apps are signed but they are not shipped with a private key.

AFAICT it is only the Android OS who can vouch for an app's authenticity.

Anders


> This is very counter to the normal definition of root of trust. By common definition the root of trust of the above phone would be the TEE. Such a redefinition for RATS would be very confusing. So I don’t think normative text should require a root of trust.
> 
> My second reason is that I don’t think the IETF should set internal security requirements for the internal implementation of an end-point:
> 
>   * The TLS RFC does not require an HSM, even in its very extensive security considerations
>   * COSE mentions keys should be protected, but only as a recommendation and only in security considerations
>   * At the Writing Security Considerations tutorial in Montreal, Yoav Nir said that IETF doesn’t get into end-point security internals so much
>   * Some of my IETF friends tell me SHOULD and MUST are for /interoperability/ aspects of a protocol only
> 
> 
> I think it is fine to:
> 
>   * Mention a root of trust as an example
>   * Have lots of text in security considerations about signing key protection
>   * Require a root of trust in profile documents, particularly ones outside the IETF
>   * Have claims that describe the internal security of an entity
> 
> 
> I know that large parts of the TCG and TEE worlds have the root of trust as a fundamental part of their architectures. It makes sense there. However, these groups fundamentally work on the security internals of end points. The IETF does not. It focuses on on-the-wire security. Thus, it makes sense that orientations around end-point internal security implementation is different.  Some of what goes in the TCG and TEE worlds doesn’t carry over to the IETF.
> 
> I know reorienting the RATS architecture draft to not hinge on roots of trust is a big upheaval, but I think it is necessary.
> 
> LL
> 
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
> 


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Subject: Re: [Rats] No root of trust requirement in RATS/EAT
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> On Aug 4, 2019, at 12:12 PM, Anders Rundgren =
<anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> On 2019-08-04 20:37, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>> An Android phone often looks like this:
>>   - Linux / Android apps
>>   - Linux kernel
>>   - TA=E2=80=99s (Trusted Apps =E2=80=94 apps running the TEE)
>>   - TEE kernel
>> It must be allowed for any one of these to generate RATS/EAT =
attestations. It might be that only the Android app generates RATS/EAT =
attestations. This phone is just one example. Other devices, like cars, =
may be similar.
>> If there is a normative or descriptive text saying a root of trust is =
required to generate an attestation, then we have to redefine root of =
trust to so that
>=20
>> Android apps are roots of trust.
>=20
> Where does this trust come from and how is it delivered to the =
concerned party?
>=20
> Android apps are signed but they are not shipped with a private key.
>=20
> AFAICT it is only the Android OS who can vouch for an app's =
authenticity.
>=20
> Anders

For the definition of an EAT token it doesn=E2=80=99t matter where the =
trust comes from, just like it doesn=E2=80=99t matter where trust comes =
from in protocol definitions for TLS, COSE, JWT, CWT and such. The =
*protocol* definitions do not require or establish trust. They may have =
a means to do it, but no absolute trust is written into the protocol =
definition.

I=E2=80=99m pretty sure there=E2=80=99s nothing normative in the TLS =
protocol definition or other IETF documents that proscribes how the =
secret key on a TLS server is to be protected. A server implementing TLS =
could have near zero protection for its private key and still be in =
compliance with the TLS RFC. That private key could even have been =
intentionally published and there would still be compliance with the TLS =
protocol.

To go in a bit further, a definition of root of trust is often =E2=80=9Cth=
e thing that you have to trust because there is nothing more underlying =
it to trust=E2=80=9D. This definition doesn=E2=80=99t give any absolute =
sense of trust. It could be a terrible root of trust full of bugs and =
such. The way you usually avoid that is to make sure your root of trust =
is certified. That is good and useful in some ways, but we can=E2=80=99t =
say XX certification from YY organization is required in normative text =
in a protocol document.

Trust does need to be established (but not through or in protocol =
definition). Typically who ever receives a token and want to trust it =
will have some how obtained the necessary public key. They hopefully =
will also have figured out whether that the whole device side key =
custody and handling is good enough for their purposes. For example when =
they get that public key they may come to know that the corresponding =
private keys are only put in to EAL 5 certified devices.

I really hope that lots of excellent policy and profile documents are =
written for entity attestation that locks down end-end trustworthiness. =
FIDO=E2=80=99s certification program is one example. It specifies =
minimum crypto, key protection, key handling and such for the =
FIDO-specific attestation it does now. But it is not in the FIDO =
protocol definition. It is clearly separated.

LL






--Apple-Mail=_E96B53D7-5BFA-4244-B743-C2C58AEC47C8
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
Aug 4, 2019, at 12:12 PM, Anders Rundgren &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">On 2019-08-04 20:37, Laurence =
Lundblade wrote:</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">An Android phone often looks like =
this:<br class=3D"">&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>- Linux / Android apps<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>- =
Linux kernel<br class=3D"">&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>- TA=E2=80=99s (Trusted =
Apps =E2=80=94 apps running the TEE)<br class=3D"">&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>- TEE kernel<br class=3D"">It=
 must be allowed for any one of these to generate RATS/EAT attestations. =
It might be that only the Android app generates RATS/EAT attestations. =
This phone is just one example. Other devices, like cars, may be =
similar.<br class=3D"">If there is a normative or descriptive text =
saying a root of trust is required to generate an attestation, then we =
have to redefine root of trust to so that<br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">Android=
 apps are roots of trust.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">Where does this trust come from =
and how is it delivered to the concerned party?</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">Android apps are signed but they =
are not shipped with a private key.</span><br style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">AFAICT it is only the Android OS who can vouch for an app's =
authenticity.</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">Anders</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">For the definition of an EAT token it =
doesn=E2=80=99t matter where the trust comes from, just like it =
doesn=E2=80=99t matter where trust comes from in protocol definitions =
for TLS, COSE, JWT, CWT and such. The *protocol* definitions do not =
require or establish trust. They may have a means to do it, but no =
absolute trust is written into the protocol definition.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I=E2=80=99m pretty sure =
there=E2=80=99s nothing normative in the TLS protocol definition or =
other IETF documents that proscribes how the secret key on a TLS server =
is to be protected. A server implementing TLS could have near zero =
protection for its private key and still be in compliance with the TLS =
RFC. That private key could even have been intentionally published and =
there would still be compliance with the TLS protocol.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">To go in a bit further, =
a definition of root of trust is often =E2=80=9Cthe thing that you have =
to trust because there is nothing more underlying it to trust=E2=80=9D. =
This definition doesn=E2=80=99t give any absolute sense of trust. It =
could be a terrible root of trust full of bugs and such. The way you =
usually avoid that is to make sure your root of trust is certified. That =
is good and useful in some ways, but we can=E2=80=99t say XX =
certification from YY organization is required in normative text in a =
protocol document.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Trust does need to be established (but not through or in =
protocol definition). Typically who ever receives a token and want to =
trust it will have some how obtained the necessary public key. They =
hopefully will also have figured out whether that the whole device side =
key custody and handling is good enough for their purposes. For example =
when they get that public key they may come to know that the =
corresponding private keys are only put in to EAL 5 certified =
devices.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I =
really hope that lots of excellent policy and profile documents are =
written for entity attestation that locks down end-end trustworthiness. =
FIDO=E2=80=99s certification program is one example. It specifies =
minimum crypto, key protection, key handling and such for the =
FIDO-specific attestation it does now. But it is not in the FIDO =
protocol definition. It is clearly separated.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_E96B53D7-5BFA-4244-B743-C2C58AEC47C8--


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To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
Cc: rats@ietf.org
References: <2DE09A2A-A6EA-4474-9DBE-8D52B523645B@island-resort.com> <987fbfbb-b3f6-c104-878a-b283978ca0f0@gmail.com> <6F1E85F0-35CB-415A-9672-BD3257F59373@island-resort.com>
From: Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] No root of trust requirement in RATS/EAT
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Hi Laurence,

I still don't get it.  IMHO there must be some kind RoT for an attestation to be of any use.

If the RoT source is weak, buggy, inferior etc. should be out of scope for the specification; it is an application consideration and a part of each RATS/EAT profile.

In TLS the assumption is that private keys are sufficiently protected and that are certificates issued by known (trusted) CAs which is why we trust TLS.
In some TLS installations I have been working with, private keys were indeed mandated to be in HSMs.

Anders

On 2019-08-05 06:56, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
> 
>> On Aug 4, 2019, at 12:12 PM, Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com <mailto:anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> On 2019-08-04 20:37, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>>> An Android phone often looks like this:
>>> - Linux / Android apps
>>> - Linux kernel
>>> - TA’s (Trusted Apps — apps running the TEE)
>>> - TEE kernel
>>> It must be allowed for any one of these to generate RATS/EAT attestations. It might be that only the Android app generates RATS/EAT attestations. This phone is just one example. Other devices, like cars, may be similar.
>>> If there is a normative or descriptive text saying a root of trust is required to generate an attestation, then we have to redefine root of trust to so that
>>
>>> Android apps are roots of trust.
>>
>> Where does this trust come from and how is it delivered to the concerned party?
>>
>> Android apps are signed but they are not shipped with a private key.
>>
>> AFAICT it is only the Android OS who can vouch for an app's authenticity.
>>
>> Anders
> 
> For the definition of an EAT token it doesn’t matter where the trust comes from, just like it doesn’t matter where trust comes from in protocol definitions for TLS, COSE, JWT, CWT and such. The *protocol* definitions do not require or establish trust. They may have a means to do it, but no absolute trust is written into the protocol definition.
> 
> I’m pretty sure there’s nothing normative in the TLS protocol definition or other IETF documents that proscribes how the secret key on a TLS server is to be protected. A server implementing TLS could have near zero protection for its private key and still be in compliance with the TLS RFC. That private key could even have been intentionally published and there would still be compliance with the TLS protocol.
> 
> To go in a bit further, a definition of root of trust is often “the thing that you have to trust because there is nothing more underlying it to trust”. This definition doesn’t give any absolute sense of trust. It could be a terrible root of trust full of bugs and such. The way you usually avoid that is to make sure your root of trust is certified. That is good and useful in some ways, but we can’t say XX certification from YY organization is required in normative text in a protocol document.
> 
> Trust does need to be established (but not through or in protocol definition). Typically who ever receives a token and want to trust it will have some how obtained the necessary public key. They hopefully will also have figured out whether that the whole device side key custody and handling is good enough for their purposes. For example when they get that public key they may come to know that the corresponding private keys are only put in to EAL 5 certified devices.
> 
> I really hope that lots of excellent policy and profile documents are written for entity attestation that locks down end-end trustworthiness. FIDO’s certification program is one example. It specifies minimum crypto, key protection, key handling and such for the FIDO-specific attestation it does now. But it is not in the FIDO protocol definition. It is clearly separated.
> 
> LL
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


From nobody Mon Aug  5 03:39:08 2019
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From: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2019 06:38:26 -0400
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To: Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com>
Cc: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, rats@ietf.org
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/ZAG8Yi7zqUVKTt04pSKeAlbHE5c>
Subject: Re: [Rats] No root of trust requirement in RATS/EAT
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Chair hat off.

Laurence has an interesting point.  In the PKI space, the IETF defined a
policy profile.  The profile could be filled out however the entity
wanted.  Then it could be audited to meet assurance level requirements that
are defined by NIST.  I'm not sure if the same assurance levels were used
globally or if there are other defined assurance levels.  There are also
levels of authentication defined by NIST as well as levels of identity
proofing.  As it turns out, we did need all of those levels as there were
use cases for each.

To Anders point, why would I want a device with no root of trust?
Plausible deniability perhaps? Lower cost?
Why would I want to sell such a device?  I probably wouldn't and this could
spur on higher level of assurance and remake of devices without this
capability depending on the target market for a device.

If we went this route, which organization should define the assurance
levels?  I'd personally like to see them openly defined and published.
Perhaps it's NIST?

If the IETF were to do this, I wouldn't put it out of scope, but may
require the redefinition of our threat model to speed up.  End point is a
gap in our model that has been raised and talked about quite a bit in
Montreal.  The IETF wouldn't do audits against defined levels, but if
there's only 2 - with and without a root of trust and we left anything more
complex to NIST, TCG, etc., maybe this would be okay.  How it's worded in
the document would matter and if we plainly state it as a definition with
root of trust and without, we may be fine.  In that case, we'd detail out
differences in the security considerations section of a document that did
this.

We had a similar discussion in the IoT space with lighting.  I'd prefer to
see both levels defined along with security considerations rather than rat
hole on the need for always having perfect security.  We are making
deployment progress with ACME (note: it can support any level of
certificate, just requires additional overhead) and other efforts when
there is better security than using nothing, but it may not be perfect.
The bar has been lowered with PM, and as a result, we are seeing better
deployment.

ACME relies on certificate type definitions that are external to the IETF
that are only lightly mentioned in the publications.

Best regards,
Kathleen

On Mon, Aug 5, 2019 at 2:21 AM Anders Rundgren <
anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Laurence,
>
> I still don't get it.  IMHO there must be some kind RoT for an attestatio=
n
> to be of any use.
>
> If the RoT source is weak, buggy, inferior etc. should be out of scope fo=
r
> the specification; it is an application consideration and a part of each
> RATS/EAT profile.
>
> In TLS the assumption is that private keys are sufficiently protected and
> that are certificates issued by known (trusted) CAs which is why we trust
> TLS.
> In some TLS installations I have been working with, private keys were
> indeed mandated to be in HSMs.
>
> Anders
>
> On 2019-08-05 06:56, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
> >
> >> On Aug 4, 2019, at 12:12 PM, Anders Rundgren <
> anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com <mailto:anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com>>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> On 2019-08-04 20:37, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
> >>> An Android phone often looks like this:
> >>> - Linux / Android apps
> >>> - Linux kernel
> >>> - TA=E2=80=99s (Trusted Apps =E2=80=94 apps running the TEE)
> >>> - TEE kernel
> >>> It must be allowed for any one of these to generate RATS/EAT
> attestations. It might be that only the Android app generates RATS/EAT
> attestations. This phone is just one example. Other devices, like cars, m=
ay
> be similar.
> >>> If there is a normative or descriptive text saying a root of trust is
> required to generate an attestation, then we have to redefine root of tru=
st
> to so that
> >>
> >>> Android apps are roots of trust.
> >>
> >> Where does this trust come from and how is it delivered to the
> concerned party?
> >>
> >> Android apps are signed but they are not shipped with a private key.
> >>
> >> AFAICT it is only the Android OS who can vouch for an app's
> authenticity.
> >>
> >> Anders
> >
> > For the definition of an EAT token it doesn=E2=80=99t matter where the =
trust
> comes from, just like it doesn=E2=80=99t matter where trust comes from in=
 protocol
> definitions for TLS, COSE, JWT, CWT and such. The *protocol* definitions =
do
> not require or establish trust. They may have a means to do it, but no
> absolute trust is written into the protocol definition.
> >
> > I=E2=80=99m pretty sure there=E2=80=99s nothing normative in the TLS pr=
otocol definition
> or other IETF documents that proscribes how the secret key on a TLS serve=
r
> is to be protected. A server implementing TLS could have near zero
> protection for its private key and still be in compliance with the TLS RF=
C.
> That private key could even have been intentionally published and there
> would still be compliance with the TLS protocol.
> >
> > To go in a bit further, a definition of root of trust is often =E2=80=
=9Cthe
> thing that you have to trust because there is nothing more underlying it =
to
> trust=E2=80=9D. This definition doesn=E2=80=99t give any absolute sense o=
f trust. It could
> be a terrible root of trust full of bugs and such. The way you usually
> avoid that is to make sure your root of trust is certified. That is good
> and useful in some ways, but we can=E2=80=99t say XX certification from Y=
Y
> organization is required in normative text in a protocol document.
> >
> > Trust does need to be established (but not through or in protocol
> definition). Typically who ever receives a token and want to trust it wil=
l
> have some how obtained the necessary public key. They hopefully will also
> have figured out whether that the whole device side key custody and
> handling is good enough for their purposes. For example when they get tha=
t
> public key they may come to know that the corresponding private keys are
> only put in to EAL 5 certified devices.
> >
> > I really hope that lots of excellent policy and profile documents are
> written for entity attestation that locks down end-end trustworthiness.
> FIDO=E2=80=99s certification program is one example. It specifies minimum=
 crypto,
> key protection, key handling and such for the FIDO-specific attestation i=
t
> does now. But it is not in the FIDO protocol definition. It is clearly
> separated.
> >
> > LL
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>


--=20

Best regards,
Kathleen

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Chair hat off.<div><br></div><div>Laurence has an interest=
ing point.=C2=A0 In the PKI space, the IETF defined a policy profile.=C2=A0=
 The profile could be filled out however the entity wanted.=C2=A0 Then it c=
ould be audited to meet assurance level requirements that are defined by NI=
ST.=C2=A0 I&#39;m not sure if the same assurance levels were used globally =
or if there are other defined assurance levels.=C2=A0 There are also levels=
 of authentication defined by NIST as well as levels of identity proofing.=
=C2=A0 As it turns out, we did need all of those levels as there were use c=
ases for each.=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>To Anders point, why wo=
uld I want a device with no root of trust?=C2=A0 Plausible deniability perh=
aps? Lower cost?</div><div>Why would I want to sell such a device?=C2=A0 I =
probably wouldn&#39;t and this could spur on higher level of assurance and =
remake of devices without this capability depending on the target market fo=
r a device.=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>If we went this route, whi=
ch organization should define the assurance levels?=C2=A0 I&#39;d personall=
y like to see them openly defined and published.=C2=A0 Perhaps it&#39;s NIS=
T?</div><div><br></div><div>If the IETF were to do this, I wouldn&#39;t put=
 it out of scope, but may require the redefinition of our threat model to s=
peed up.=C2=A0 End point is a gap in our model that has been raised and tal=
ked about quite a bit in Montreal.=C2=A0 The IETF wouldn&#39;t do audits ag=
ainst defined levels, but if there&#39;s only 2 - with and without a root o=
f trust and we left anything more complex to NIST, TCG, etc., maybe this wo=
uld be okay.=C2=A0 How it&#39;s worded in the document would matter and if =
we plainly state it as a definition with root of trust and without, we may =
be fine.=C2=A0 In that case, we&#39;d detail out differences in the securit=
y considerations section of a document that did this.</div><div><br></div><=
div>We had a similar discussion in the IoT space with lighting.=C2=A0 I&#39=
;d prefer to see both levels defined along with security considerations rat=
her than rat hole on the need for always having perfect security.=C2=A0 We =
are making deployment progress with ACME (note: it can support any level of=
 certificate, just requires additional overhead) and other efforts when the=
re is better security than using nothing, but it may not be perfect.=C2=A0 =
The bar has been lowered with PM, and as a result, we are seeing better dep=
loyment.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>ACME relies on certificate type def=
initions that are external to the IETF that are only lightly mentioned in t=
he publications.</div><div><br></div><div>Best regards,</div><div>Kathleen<=
/div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_a=
ttr">On Mon, Aug 5, 2019 at 2:21 AM Anders Rundgren &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:a=
nders.rundgren.net@gmail.com">anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<=
br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e=
x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi Laurence,<br>
<br>
I still don&#39;t get it.=C2=A0 IMHO there must be some kind RoT for an att=
estation to be of any use.<br>
<br>
If the RoT source is weak, buggy, inferior etc. should be out of scope for =
the specification; it is an application consideration and a part of each RA=
TS/EAT profile.<br>
<br>
In TLS the assumption is that private keys are sufficiently protected and t=
hat are certificates issued by known (trusted) CAs which is why we trust TL=
S.<br>
In some TLS installations I have been working with, private keys were indee=
d mandated to be in HSMs.<br>
<br>
Anders<br>
<br>
On 2019-08-05 06:56, Laurence Lundblade wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; On Aug 4, 2019, at 12:12 PM, Anders Rundgren &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">anders.rundgren.net@gmail=
.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com" target=
=3D"_blank">anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On 2019-08-04 20:37, Laurence Lundblade wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; An Android phone often looks like this:<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; - Linux / Android apps<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; - Linux kernel<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; - TA=E2=80=99s (Trusted Apps =E2=80=94 apps running the TEE)<b=
r>
&gt;&gt;&gt; - TEE kernel<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; It must be allowed for any one of these to generate RATS/EAT a=
ttestations. It might be that only the Android app generates RATS/EAT attes=
tations. This phone is just one example. Other devices, like cars, may be s=
imilar.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; If there is a normative or descriptive text saying a root of t=
rust is required to generate an attestation, then we have to redefine root =
of trust to so that<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; Android apps are roots of trust.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Where does this trust come from and how is it delivered to the con=
cerned party?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Android apps are signed but they are not shipped with a private ke=
y.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; AFAICT it is only the Android OS who can vouch for an app&#39;s au=
thenticity.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Anders<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; For the definition of an EAT token it doesn=E2=80=99t matter where the=
 trust comes from, just like it doesn=E2=80=99t matter where trust comes fr=
om in protocol definitions for TLS, COSE, JWT, CWT and such. The *protocol*=
 definitions do not require or establish trust. They may have a means to do=
 it, but no absolute trust is written into the protocol definition.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I=E2=80=99m pretty sure there=E2=80=99s nothing normative in the TLS p=
rotocol definition or other IETF documents that proscribes how the secret k=
ey on a TLS server is to be protected. A server implementing TLS could have=
 near zero protection for its private key and still be in compliance with t=
he TLS RFC. That private key could even have been intentionally published a=
nd there would still be compliance with the TLS protocol.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; To go in a bit further, a definition of root of trust is often =E2=80=
=9Cthe thing that you have to trust because there is nothing more underlyin=
g it to trust=E2=80=9D. This definition doesn=E2=80=99t give any absolute s=
ense of trust. It could be a terrible root of trust full of bugs and such. =
The way you usually avoid that is to make sure your root of trust is certif=
ied. That is good and useful in some ways, but we can=E2=80=99t say XX cert=
ification from YY organization is required in normative text in a protocol =
document.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Trust does need to be established (but not through or in protocol defi=
nition). Typically who ever receives a token and want to trust it will have=
 some how obtained the necessary public key. They hopefully will also have =
figured out whether that the whole device side key custody and handling is =
good enough for their purposes. For example when they get that public key t=
hey may come to know that the corresponding private keys are only put in to=
 EAL 5 certified devices.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I really hope that lots of excellent policy and profile documents are =
written for entity attestation that locks down end-end trustworthiness. FID=
O=E2=80=99s certification program is one example. It specifies minimum cryp=
to, key protection, key handling and such for the FIDO-specific attestation=
 it does now. But it is not in the FIDO protocol definition. It is clearly =
separated.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; LL<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
RATS mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">RATS@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"=
 class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div>Best regards,</div><di=
v>Kathleen</div></div></div>

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From: Giridhar Mandyam <mandyam@qti.qualcomm.com>
To: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Comments on draft-birkholz-rats-architecture-01
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Please note that these comments are not meant as a response to any call-for=
-adoption of this document.

Thanks to the editors for preparing this document.  It was an interesting r=
ead.  That being said, I had some brief and initial follow-up.  After I con=
duct a more detailed review, I may send more follow-up comments/questions.


  1.  This document [1] is listed as "Standards Track" and is not listed as=
 "Informational" .  I am wondering what that means in practice, as I would =
assume a standards track document would address areas where interoperabilit=
y is required.  I am having trouble identifying where in the document there=
 is any actual specification that affects interoperability (e.g. protocol r=
equirements between the actors defined in Sec. 4).  So what is the intentio=
n behind requiring this document to be standards track?  Does it mean that =
if I set up a remote attestation solution that does not follow the architec=
ture defined in Section 2, then I am doing it wrong?
  2.  Subsequently, I compared this document to another security architectu=
re document on standards track in the IETF, namely the RTCWeb sec. arch. dr=
aft [2],  Note that there are several areas crucial to WebRTC interoperabil=
ity that are defined in [2], particularly in the usage of the SDP identity =
attribute (also defined in this document - see [3] for the IANA registry re=
ference).  As a result, there are several 'MUST' requirements in this docum=
ent.
     *   In contrast, [1] has zero "MUST" or even "SHOULD" requirements.  S=
o what is being defined here that is standards track?  Could this instead b=
e an informative document that is not standards track, like the Use Cases?
  3.  The term "appraise" is used in the document without defining the role=
 of an appraiser and the target of appraisal.  This is unfortunate and is n=
ot consistent with previously-published work on attestation.  For instance,=
 [4] offers the following definitions:  "An appraiser is a party, generally=
 a computer on a network, making a decision about some other party or parti=
es. A target is a party about which an appraiser needs to make such a decis=
ion."  The authors go on to comment, "We refer to the decision-making party=
 as an appraiser rather than a verifier to emphasize that the decision-maki=
ng process is a matter of evaluating the target against the appraiser's int=
ernal standards, rather than proving the target's correctness."
     *   I contrast this with [1], where appraisal seems to be the sole res=
ponsibility of the verifier.  Forcing appraisal to be part of verification =
means that all attestation appraisals will be tied into verification.  Ther=
efore it can be assumed that a successful verification is required for appr=
aisal, when in many cases it is not.
  4.  Sec. 4.1.1:  Attester Duties.  Amongst them, "Acquisition or collecti=
ons of assertions about itself".  What constitutes 'itself' in this case?
     *   Note another terminology definition in [4]:  "Attestation is the a=
ctivity of making a claim to an appraiser about the properties of a target =
by supplying evidence which supports that claim. An attester is a party per=
forming this activity. An appraiser's decision-making process based on atte=
sted information is appraisal."

                                                               i.      Ther=
e is no requirement that attester and target be the same in this definition=
, while [1] seems to require that the attester can only make claims about '=
itself'.

     *   Note that if the attester and target have to be one and the same, =
then this excludes certain architectures that may be required for limited-r=
esource devices that are simply unable to make claims about themselves.  Fo=
r instance, in [5] (apologies in advance for being self-referential), an ar=
chitecture is described wherein an IoT gateway constructions attestations o=
n behalf of attached devices for a relying party based on network observati=
ons.
  1.  Sec. 3.1.  The role of the verifier in appraisal.  Note that [4] goes=
 on to state that "A given target may wish to provide different information=
 to different appraisers depending on the current trust relationships it ha=
s with those parties." The definition of the verifier does not cover multip=
le appraisers.
     *   An individual relying party may actually execute different levels =
of appraisal, depending on the type of authorization it wants to provide.  =
An example could be an RP that allows access to its service for a successfu=
lly-verified attestation where all claims are as expected, but requires ste=
p-up authentication for a successfully-verified attestation where certain c=
laims do not meet the appraisal criteria (e.g. target's SW version is not a=
t the tip, target's location is outside a permissible geofence).
  2.  Sec. 3.1.  Authentication Checker.  I tried to determine whether an A=
uthentication Checker can fulfil the role of an appraiser, but I don't see =
how this is possible.
     *   "The consumer ... that assesses the trustworthiness or other trust=
 relationships of the information consumed via trusted third parties or ext=
ernal trust authorities ...".  This sentence seems to restrict assessment a=
s being only based on information provided only by external or 3rd-parties.=
  If the RP and the manufacturer of the target are one and the same, this s=
eems to be unnecessary.

                                                               i.      Note=
 that in my reading of [4], no such restriction is proposed.  However, this=
 paper focuses on the TPM-model for attestation and therefore in its exampl=
es tends to assume the use of external CA's.

  1.  Privacy:  The role of privacy considerations in an attestation archit=
ecture should ideally be addressed.  There is a mention of a privacy CA in =
the definition of Authentication Checker, but the use of a privacy CA is on=
ly one option and is often undesirable for many service providers.
     *   FIDO defined the role of a "none" attestation statement [6], to al=
low RP's to avoid undesired exposure to information that could be used for =
device fingerprinting, user tracking, etc.  Any reference architecture shou=
ld be able to accommodate a none attestation as a means of preserving priva=
cy.
  2.  There is no definition of attestation delegation or definition of an =
attestation proxy as an actor or architectural component in the current dra=
ft.  I contrast this to [7], where Section 5.4 clearly defines these concep=
ts and demonstrates their usage in the context integrating trusted 3rd-part=
ies in attestation verification and appraisal.
     *   This kind of operational model may be depicted in the example of S=
ection 6.1.  If so, why not use the terms-of-art such as 'attestation proxy=
' or 'attestation delegation'?
     *   The use of attestation proxies may be addressed in Section. 7.1 ("=
lying endpoint"), but it is not clear how an RP distinguishes between a lyi=
ng endpoint and a trusted system.

                                                               i.      I in=
terpret the guidance in Section 7.2 to actually discourage the use of attes=
tation proxies:  "Remote Attestation argues that a systems's integrity char=
acteristics should not be  believed until rationale for believability is pr=
esented to the relying party seeking to interact with the system."  This me=
ans that the RP must have access to all aspects of the 'rationale' and cann=
ot simply consume a 'yes/no' indication from a trusted 3rd-party.

  1.  Has this document been compared to the TEEP reference architecture [8=
]?    I have done a very superficial comparison, but I expect that if the g=
roup adopts [1] then the TEEP architecture will evolve to be consistent wit=
h the RAts architecture.
     *   Note that the status of the TEEP arch. draft is "Informational".  =
Maybe the RAts architecture should be as well.
     *   Sec. 7.1 of [8] specifically requires signature non-repudiation.  =
I could not find an equivalent requirement in [1].  Is there a reason why n=
on-repudiation is not required for the RAts architecture?

                                                               i.      If s=
uch a requirement is in [1] but is worded differently from [8], please poin=
t me to it.

     *   Sec. 5.3 of [8] states "... the TEEP Broker provides connections f=
rom the TEE and the Client App to one or more TAMs.  The selection of which=
 TAM to communicate with is dependent on information from the Client App an=
d is directly related to the TA."

                                                               i.      Sinc=
e the TEEP Broker plays a critical role in conveyance of the attestation in=
formation to the correct TAM, it seems to me that there should be a similar=
 entity defined in the attestation target of the RAts architecture that wou=
ld determine how and to which endpoint the attestation is conveyed.

[1] https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-birkholz-rats-architecture-01.txt.
[2] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch-20.
[3] https://www.iana.org/assignments/sdp-parameters/sdp-parameters.xhtml.
[4] Coker, George et al.  "Principles of Remote Attestation."  Internationa=
l Journal on Information Security.  Vol. 10.  No .2.  2011.  pp. 63-81.
[5] Mandyam, G.  IEEE/ACM International Conference on Communications System=
s and Networks (COMSNETS).  January 2017.  https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/abst=
ract/document/7945438.
[6] https://www.w3.org/TR/webauthn/#none-attestation.
[7] J. Guttman et al.  ""Attestation:  Evidence and Trust".  MITRE Technica=
l Report MTR080072.  March 2008.  https://www.mitre.org/sites/default/files=
/pdf/07_0186.pdf.
[8] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teep-architecture/.

-Giri Mandyam, Qualcomm

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</head>
<body lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Please note that these comments are not meant as a r=
esponse to any call-for-adoption of this document.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks to the editors for preparing this document.&n=
bsp; It was an interesting read.&nbsp; That being said, I had some brief an=
d initial follow-up.&nbsp; After I conduct a more detailed review, I may se=
nd more follow-up comments/questions.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<ol style=3D"margin-top:0in" start=3D"1" type=3D"a">
<li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo1">This document [1] is listed as &#8220;Standards Track&#8221; and is n=
ot listed as &#8220;Informational&#8221; .&nbsp; I am wondering what that m=
eans in practice, as I would assume a standards track document would
 address areas where interoperability is required.&nbsp; I am having troubl=
e identifying where in the document there is any actual specification that =
affects interoperability (e.g. protocol requirements between the actors def=
ined in Sec. 4).&nbsp; So what is the intention
 behind requiring this document to be standards track?&nbsp; Does it mean t=
hat if I set up a remote attestation solution that does not follow the arch=
itecture defined in Section 2, then I am doing it wrong?<o:p></o:p></li><li=
 class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo=
1">Subsequently, I compared this document to another security architecture =
document on standards track in the IETF, namely the RTCWeb sec. arch. draft=
 [2],&nbsp; Note that there are several
 areas crucial to WebRTC interoperability that are defined in [2], particul=
arly in the usage of the SDP identity attribute (also defined in this docum=
ent &#8211; see [3] for the IANA registry reference).&nbsp; As a result, th=
ere are several &#8216;MUST&#8217; requirements in this
 document.<o:p></o:p>
<ol style=3D"margin-top:0in" start=3D"1" type=3D"a">
<li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level2 =
lfo1">In contrast, [1] has zero &#8220;MUST&#8221; or even &#8220;SHOULD&#8=
221; requirements.&nbsp; So what is being defined here that is standards tr=
ack?&nbsp; Could this instead be an informative document that is not standa=
rds
 track, like the Use Cases?<o:p></o:p></li></ol>
</li><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 le=
vel1 lfo1">The term &#8220;appraise&#8221; is used in the document without =
defining the role of an appraiser and the target of appraisal.&nbsp; This i=
s unfortunate and is not consistent with previously-published
 work on attestation.&nbsp; For instance, [4] offers the following definiti=
ons:&nbsp; &#8220;An appraiser is a party, generally a computer on a networ=
k, making a decision about some other party or parties. A target is a party=
 about which an appraiser needs to make such a decision.&#8221;&nbsp;
 The authors go on to comment, &#8220;We refer to the decision-making party=
 as an appraiser rather than a verifier to emphasize that the decision-maki=
ng process is a matter of evaluating the target against the appraiser&#8217=
;s internal standards, rather than proving the
 target&#8217;s correctness.&#8221;<o:p></o:p>
<ol style=3D"margin-top:0in" start=3D"1" type=3D"a">
<li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level2 =
lfo1">I contrast this with [1], where appraisal seems to be the sole respon=
sibility of the verifier.&nbsp; Forcing appraisal to be part of verificatio=
n means that all attestation appraisals will
 be tied into verification.&nbsp; Therefore it can be assumed that a succes=
sful verification is required for appraisal, when in many cases it is not.<=
o:p></o:p></li></ol>
</li><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 le=
vel1 lfo1">Sec. 4.1.1:&nbsp; Attester Duties.&nbsp; Amongst them, &#8220;Ac=
quisition or collections of assertions about itself&#8221;.&nbsp; What cons=
titutes &#8216;itself&#8217; in this case?<o:p></o:p>
<ol style=3D"margin-top:0in" start=3D"1" type=3D"a">
<li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level2 =
lfo1">Note another terminology definition in [4]:&nbsp; &#8220;Attestation =
is the activity of making a claim to an appraiser about the properties of a=
 target by supplying evidence which supports that
 claim. An attester is a party performing this activity. An appraiser&#8217=
;s decision-making process based on attested information is appraisal.&#822=
1;<o:p></o:p></li></ol>
</li></ol>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:1.5in;text-indent:-1.5in=
;mso-text-indent-alt:-9.0pt;mso-list:l0 level3 lfo1">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore"><span style=3D"font:7.=
0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>i.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span><![endif]>There is no requirement that at=
tester and target be the same in this definition, while [1] seems to requir=
e that the attester can only make claims about &#8216;itself&#8217;.<o:p></=
o:p></p>
<ol style=3D"margin-top:0in" start=3D"4" type=3D"a">
<ol style=3D"margin-top:0in" start=3D"2" type=3D"a">
<li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level2 =
lfo1">Note that if the attester and target have to be one and the same, the=
n this excludes certain architectures that may be required for limited-reso=
urce devices that are simply unable
 to make claims about themselves.&nbsp; For instance, in [5] (apologies in =
advance for being self-referential), an architecture is described wherein a=
n IoT gateway constructions attestations on behalf of attached devices for =
a relying party based on network observations.
<o:p></o:p></li></ol>
<li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo1">Sec. 3.1.&nbsp; The role of the verifier in appraisal.&nbsp; Note tha=
t [4] goes on to state that &#8220;A given target may wish to provide diffe=
rent information to different appraisers depending on
 the current trust relationships it has with those parties.&#8221; The defi=
nition of the verifier does not cover multiple appraisers.
<o:p></o:p>
<ol style=3D"margin-top:0in" start=3D"1" type=3D"a">
<li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level2 =
lfo1">An individual relying party may actually execute different levels of =
appraisal, depending on the type of authorization it wants to provide.&nbsp=
; An example could be an RP that allows access
 to its service for a successfully-verified attestation where all claims ar=
e as expected, but requires step-up authentication for a successfully-verif=
ied attestation where certain claims do not meet the appraisal criteria (e.=
g. target&#8217;s SW version is not at
 the tip, target&#8217;s location is outside a permissible geofence).<o:p><=
/o:p></li></ol>
</li><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 le=
vel1 lfo1">Sec. 3.1.&nbsp; Authentication Checker.&nbsp; I tried to determi=
ne whether an Authentication Checker can fulfil the role of an appraiser, b=
ut I don&#8217;t see how this is possible.<o:p></o:p>
<ol style=3D"margin-top:0in" start=3D"1" type=3D"a">
<li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level2 =
lfo1">&#8220;The consumer &#8230; that assesses the trustworthiness or othe=
r trust relationships of the information consumed via trusted third parties=
 or external trust authorities &#8230;&#8221;.&nbsp; This sentence
 seems to restrict assessment as being only based on information provided o=
nly by external or 3<sup>rd</sup>-parties.&nbsp; If the RP and the manufact=
urer of the target are one and the same, this seems to be unnecessary.<o:p>=
</o:p></li></ol>
</li></ol>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:1.5in;text-indent:-1.5in=
;mso-text-indent-alt:-9.0pt;mso-list:l0 level3 lfo1">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore"><span style=3D"font:7.=
0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>i.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span><![endif]>Note that in my reading of [4],=
 no such restriction is proposed.&nbsp; However, this paper focuses on the =
TPM-model for attestation and therefore in its examples tends to assume the
 use of external CA&#8217;s.<o:p></o:p></p>
<ol style=3D"margin-top:0in" start=3D"7" type=3D"a">
<li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo1">Privacy:&nbsp; The role of privacy considerations in an attestation a=
rchitecture should ideally be addressed.&nbsp; There is a mention of a priv=
acy CA in the definition of Authentication Checker,
 but the use of a privacy CA is only one option and is often undesirable fo=
r many service providers.<o:p></o:p>
<ol style=3D"margin-top:0in" start=3D"1" type=3D"a">
<li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level2 =
lfo1">FIDO defined the role of a &#8220;none&#8221; attestation statement [=
6], to allow RP&#8217;s to avoid undesired exposure to information that cou=
ld be used for device fingerprinting, user tracking, etc.&nbsp;
 Any reference architecture should be able to accommodate a none attestatio=
n as a means of preserving privacy.<o:p></o:p></li></ol>
</li><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 le=
vel1 lfo1">There is no definition of attestation delegation or definition o=
f an attestation proxy as an actor or architectural component in the curren=
t draft.&nbsp; I contrast this to [7], where Section
 5.4 clearly defines these concepts and demonstrates their usage in the con=
text integrating trusted 3<sup>rd</sup>-parties in attestation verification=
 and appraisal.&nbsp;
<o:p></o:p>
<ol style=3D"margin-top:0in" start=3D"1" type=3D"a">
<li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level2 =
lfo1">This kind of operational model may be depicted in the example of Sect=
ion 6.1.&nbsp; If so, why not use the terms-of-art such as &#8216;attestati=
on proxy&#8217; or &#8216;attestation delegation&#8217;?<o:p></o:p></li><li=
 class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level2 lfo=
1">The use of attestation proxies may be addressed in Section. 7.1 (&#8220;=
lying endpoint&#8221;), but it is not clear how an RP distinguishes between=
 a lying endpoint and a trusted system.<o:p></o:p></li></ol>
</li></ol>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:1.5in;text-indent:-1.5in=
;mso-text-indent-alt:-9.0pt;mso-list:l0 level3 lfo1">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore"><span style=3D"font:7.=
0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>i.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span><![endif]>I interpret the guidance in Sec=
tion 7.2 to actually discourage the use of attestation proxies:&nbsp; &#822=
0;Remote Attestation argues that a systems's integrity characteristics shou=
ld not
 be&nbsp; believed until rationale for believability is presented to the re=
lying party seeking to interact with the system.&#8221;&nbsp; This means th=
at the RP must have access to all aspects of the &#8216;rationale&#8217; an=
d cannot simply consume a &#8216;yes/no&#8217; indication from a trusted
 3<sup>rd</sup>-party.<o:p></o:p></p>
<ol style=3D"margin-top:0in" start=3D"9" type=3D"a">
<li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo1">Has this document been compared to the TEEP reference architecture [8=
]?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I have done a very superficial comparison, but I expec=
t that if the group adopts [1] then the TEEP architecture
 will evolve to be consistent with the RAts architecture.<o:p></o:p>
<ol style=3D"margin-top:0in" start=3D"1" type=3D"a">
<li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level2 =
lfo1">Note that the status of the TEEP arch. draft is &#8220;Informational&=
#8221;.&nbsp; Maybe the RAts architecture should be as well.<o:p></o:p></li=
><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level2=
 lfo1">Sec. 7.1 of [8] specifically requires signature non-repudiation.&nbs=
p; I could not find an equivalent requirement in [1].&nbsp; Is there a reas=
on why non-repudiation is not required for the
 RAts architecture?<o:p></o:p></li></ol>
</li></ol>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:1.5in;text-indent:-1.5in=
;mso-text-indent-alt:-9.0pt;mso-list:l0 level3 lfo1">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore"><span style=3D"font:7.=
0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>i.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span><![endif]>If such a requirement is in [1]=
 but is worded differently from [8], please point me to it.<o:p></o:p></p>
<ol style=3D"margin-top:0in" start=3D"9" type=3D"a">
<ol style=3D"margin-top:0in" start=3D"3" type=3D"a">
<li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level2 =
lfo1">Sec. 5.3 of [8] states &#8220;&#8230; the TEEP Broker provides connec=
tions from the TEE and the Client App to one or more TAMs.&nbsp; The select=
ion of which TAM to communicate with is dependent on
 information from the Client App and is directly related to the TA.&#8221;<=
o:p></o:p></li></ol>
</ol>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:1.5in;text-indent:-1.5in=
;mso-text-indent-alt:-9.0pt;mso-list:l0 level3 lfo1">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore"><span style=3D"font:7.=
0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>i.<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span><![endif]>Since the TEEP Broker plays a c=
ritical role in conveyance of the attestation information to the correct TA=
M, it seems to me that there should be a similar entity defined in the
 attestation target of the RAts architecture that would determine how and t=
o which endpoint the attestation is conveyed.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[1] <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-birkhol=
z-rats-architecture-01.txt">
https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-birkholz-rats-architecture-01.txt</a>.<o:p></=
o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[2] <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-iet=
f-rtcweb-security-arch-20">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch-20</a>.<o:p></o=
:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[3] <a href=3D"https://www.iana.org/assignments/sdp-=
parameters/sdp-parameters.xhtml">
https://www.iana.org/assignments/sdp-parameters/sdp-parameters.xhtml</a>.<o=
:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[4] Coker, George et al.&nbsp; &#8220;Principles of =
Remote Attestation.&#8221;&nbsp;
<i>International Journal on Information Security</i>.&nbsp; Vol. 10.&nbsp; =
No .2.&nbsp; 2011.&nbsp; pp. 63-81.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[5] Mandyam, G.&nbsp; IEEE/ACM International Confere=
nce on Communications Systems and Networks (COMSNETS).&nbsp; January 2017.&=
nbsp;
<a href=3D"https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/abstract/document/7945438">https://i=
eeexplore.ieee.org/abstract/document/7945438</a>.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[6] <a href=3D"https://www.w3.org/TR/webauthn/#none-=
attestation">
https://www.w3.org/TR/webauthn/#none-attestation</a>.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[7] J. Guttman et al.&nbsp; &#8220;&#8221;Attestatio=
n:&nbsp; Evidence and Trust&#8221;.&nbsp; MITRE Technical Report MTR080072.=
&nbsp; March 2008.&nbsp;
<a href=3D"https://www.mitre.org/sites/default/files/pdf/07_0186.pdf">https=
://www.mitre.org/sites/default/files/pdf/07_0186.pdf</a>.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[8] <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draf=
t-ietf-teep-architecture/">
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teep-architecture/</a>. <o:p></=
o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">-Giri Mandyam, Qualcomm<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From nobody Mon Aug  5 19:54:03 2019
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Cc: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
To: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
References: <2DE09A2A-A6EA-4474-9DBE-8D52B523645B@island-resort.com> <987fbfbb-b3f6-c104-878a-b283978ca0f0@gmail.com> <6F1E85F0-35CB-415A-9672-BD3257F59373@island-resort.com> <2c9ebe7b-9826-2d23-6f86-d098b79128d6@gmail.com> <CAHbuEH7i+SOTNSSar8DFo-dTm2NofL3NNEnHbFr_1yjTUMfDXA@mail.gmail.com> <A4E8245F-6A5F-4E6D-B940-41F43E8DBC38@intel.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/NwemEoiXMONYOWDZjXcgqgeQ8QA>
Subject: Re: [Rats] No root of trust requirement in RATS/EAT
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> On Aug 5, 2019, at 5:49 PM, Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com> wrote:
>=20
> A definition of root of trust is: It is trusted always to behave in =
the expected manner, because its misbehavior cannot be detected.

This definition is very clear and useful in a trusted computing =
environment. But note that this definition doesn=E2=80=99t actually say =
the security of the root of trust is any good (which is counter to the =
way most use the term). It is just a nice way to label the part that you =
have to trust.

I find the definition much less useful in network protocol environment. =
We=E2=80=99re already trusting end points in very big ways. We trust TLS =
servers to protect their private keys,  encrypting email clients to =
protect their keys and so on. Maybe we should call them "points of =
trust=E2=80=9D. Most don=E2=80=99t leverage trusted computing =
architectures we use them all the time even though they have no root of =
trust. We trust them every day with thousands of dollars of value in =
stock trading apps and such.

I can=E2=80=99t see what this definition means in a networked protocol =
environment. It doesn=E2=80=99t seem to elucidate or clarify anything =
for me.


> =20
> By this definition all endpoints are trusted / has a root of trust. =
The verifier must determine if it is justified in trusting the endpoint =
based on its root-of-trust definition. For example, if the endpoint =
defines its root of trust in terms of a software application (only) then =
the verifier is likely not justified in regarding it as a root of trust, =
since there are many possible ways to compromise software (in the =
abstract).

In a way I agree with this.  However I think there are two problems in =
adopting this view:

1) It is not what most people think. They think it means something like =
a TPM chip or a TEE or trusted boot. Using the term this way will cause =
confusion.

2) If a root of trust can be anything, then the term loses its worth. It =
isn=E2=80=99t saying anything. So why use it?

LL

(I have more comments, but want to take time to think and write=E2=80=A6)=

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
Aug 5, 2019, at 5:49 PM, Smith, Ned &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com" class=3D"">ned.smith@intel.com</a>&gt;=
 wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">A definition of root of trust is: It =
is trusted always to behave in the expected manner, because its =
misbehavior cannot be detected.</div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>This definition is very clear and useful in a =
trusted computing environment. But note that this definition doesn=E2=80=99=
t actually say the security of the root of trust is any good (which is =
counter to the way most use the term). It is just a nice way to label =
the part that you have to trust.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I =
find the definition much less useful in network protocol environment. =
We=E2=80=99re already trusting end points in very big ways. We trust TLS =
servers to protect their private keys, &nbsp;encrypting email clients to =
protect their keys and so on. Maybe we should call them "points of =
trust=E2=80=9D. Most don=E2=80=99t leverage trusted computing =
architectures we use them all the time even though they have no root of =
trust. We trust them every day with thousands of dollars of value in =
stock trading apps and such.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I =
can=E2=80=99t see what this definition means in a networked protocol =
environment. It doesn=E2=80=99t seem to elucidate or clarify anything =
for me.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">By this definition all endpoints are =
trusted / has a root of trust. The verifier must determine if it is =
justified in trusting the endpoint based on its root-of-trust =
definition. For example, if the endpoint defines its root of trust in =
terms of a software application (only) then the verifier is likely not =
justified in regarding it as a root of trust, since there are many =
possible ways to compromise software (in the =
abstract).</div></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">In=
 a way I agree with this. &nbsp;However I think there are two problems =
in adopting this view:</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; =
padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D"">1) It is not what most people =
think. They think it means something like a TPM chip or a TEE or trusted =
boot. Using the term this way will cause confusion.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">2) If a root of trust =
can be anything, then the term loses its worth. It isn=E2=80=99t saying =
anything. So why use it?</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote>LL<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">(I have more comments, but want to take time to think and =
write=E2=80=A6)</div></body></html>=

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From: Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>
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Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2019 09:20:45 +0200
In-Reply-To: <8E4ED21F-EE52-4FAF-AFCB-A7624C56ED28@island-resort.com>
Cc: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com>
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
References: <2DE09A2A-A6EA-4474-9DBE-8D52B523645B@island-resort.com> <987fbfbb-b3f6-c104-878a-b283978ca0f0@gmail.com> <6F1E85F0-35CB-415A-9672-BD3257F59373@island-resort.com> <2c9ebe7b-9826-2d23-6f86-d098b79128d6@gmail.com> <CAHbuEH7i+SOTNSSar8DFo-dTm2NofL3NNEnHbFr_1yjTUMfDXA@mail.gmail.com> <A4E8245F-6A5F-4E6D-B940-41F43E8DBC38@intel.com> <8E4ED21F-EE52-4FAF-AFCB-A7624C56ED28@island-resort.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] No root of trust requirement in RATS/EAT
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> On 6 Aug 2019, at 04:53, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> This definition is very clear and useful in a trusted computing =
environment. But note that this definition doesn=E2=80=99t actually say =
the security of the root of trust is any good (which is counter to the =
way most use the term). It is just a nice way to label the part that you =
have to trust.

The whole point of the word =E2=80=9Ctrust=E2=80=9D is that there is =
always some leap of faith, being that security is not perfect.  You =
either trust ARM or Intel or Microchip or whoever to get it right or you =
don=E2=80=99t.

> I find the definition much less useful in network protocol =
environment. We=E2=80=99re already trusting end points in very big ways. =
We trust TLS servers to protect their private keys,  encrypting email =
clients to protect their keys and so on. Maybe we should call them =
"points of trust=E2=80=9D. Most don=E2=80=99t leverage trusted computing =
architectures we use them all the time even though they have no root of =
trust. We trust them every day with thousands of dollars of value in =
stock trading apps and such.


What you describe in the above paragraph is not a choice but a =
technology limitation.  Is your point that you are seeking a =
self-asserted root of trust for every system on your network or that you =
want trust anchored not in the TEE/OS but above those layers?  If so, =
what=E2=80=99s the value when the OS is hacked?

Eliot

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On 6 Aug 2019, at 04:53, Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" =
class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
16px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">This definition is very clear =
and useful in a trusted computing environment. But note that this =
definition doesn=E2=80=99t actually say the security of the root of =
trust is any good (which is counter to the way most use the term). It is =
just a nice way to label the part that you have to =
trust.</span></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">The =
whole point of the word =E2=80=9Ctrust=E2=80=9D is that there is always =
some leap of faith, being that security is not perfect. &nbsp;You either =
trust ARM or Intel or Microchip or whoever to get it right or you =
don=E2=80=99t.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">I find the definition =
much less useful in network protocol environment. We=E2=80=99re already =
trusting end points in very big ways. We trust TLS servers to protect =
their private keys, &nbsp;encrypting email clients to protect their keys =
and so on. Maybe we should call them "points of trust=E2=80=9D. Most =
don=E2=80=99t leverage trusted computing architectures we use them all =
the time even though they have no root of trust. We trust them every day =
with thousands of dollars of value in stock trading apps and =
such.</blockquote></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">What you describe in the above paragraph is not a choice but =
a technology limitation. &nbsp;Is your point that you are seeking a =
self-asserted root of trust for every system on your network or that you =
want trust anchored not in the TEE/OS but above those layers? &nbsp;If =
so, what=E2=80=99s the value when the OS is hacked?</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Eliot</div></body></html>=

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In-Reply-To: <148D90BA-036A-4682-B920-4650182E2CB1@cisco.com>
From: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2019 09:07:49 -0400
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To: Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>
Cc: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/3tF-uhM5_qVa2iVw2GzfxCxTPSc>
Subject: Re: [Rats] No root of trust requirement in RATS/EAT
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On Tue, Aug 6, 2019 at 3:20 AM Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com> wrote:

>
>
> On 6 Aug 2019, at 04:53, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com> wrote=
:
>
> This definition is very clear and useful in a trusted computing
> environment. But note that this definition doesn=E2=80=99t actually say t=
he
> security of the root of trust is any good (which is counter to the way mo=
st
> use the term). It is just a nice way to label the part that you have to
> trust.
>
>
> The whole point of the word =E2=80=9Ctrust=E2=80=9D is that there is alwa=
ys some leap of
> faith, being that security is not perfect.  You either trust ARM or Intel
> or Microchip or whoever to get it right or you don=E2=80=99t.
>

Right, Laurence is pointing out that Ned's definition encompasses systems
without the TEE.  I may be wrong, but it seems that point was missed in
your response.

I still think we can use the level model, where you have levels of security
assertions depending on implementation and point out the differences in
security considerations.  We could establish a profile, like PKI, and then
leave it to another organization to define levels.  We would need to state
risks of choices to have a proper security considerations section to align
with end point security that is likely to be in the IETF's evolved threat
model per Montreal discussions.

Best regards,
Kathleen


> I find the definition much less useful in network protocol environment.
> We=E2=80=99re already trusting end points in very big ways. We trust TLS =
servers to
> protect their private keys,  encrypting email clients to protect their ke=
ys
> and so on. Maybe we should call them "points of trust=E2=80=9D. Most don=
=E2=80=99t leverage
> trusted computing architectures we use them all the time even though they
> have no root of trust. We trust them every day with thousands of dollars =
of
> value in stock trading apps and such.
>
>
> What you describe in the above paragraph is not a choice but a technology
> limitation.  Is your point that you are seeking a self-asserted root of
> trust for every system on your network or that you want trust anchored no=
t
> in the TEE/OS but above those layers?  If so, what=E2=80=99s the value wh=
en the OS
> is hacked?
>
> Eliot
>


--=20

Best regards,
Kathleen

--0000000000001d581c058f7285e7
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Aug 6, 2019 at 3:20 AM Eliot =
Lear &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lear@cisco.com">lear@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br=
></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;=
border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"over=
flow-wrap: break-word;"><br><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On 6 Au=
g 2019, at 04:53, Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resor=
t.com" target=3D"_blank">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br clas=
s=3D"gmail-m_1575891251110547831Apple-interchange-newline"><div><span style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:16px;font-style:normal;font-variant-cap=
s:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-ind=
ent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decora=
tion:none;float:none;display:inline">This definition is very clear and usef=
ul in a trusted computing environment. But note that this definition doesn=
=E2=80=99t actually say the security of the root of trust is any good (whic=
h is counter to the way most use the term). It is just a nice way to label =
the part that you have to trust.</span></div></blockquote></div><br><div>Th=
e whole point of the word =E2=80=9Ctrust=E2=80=9D is that there is always s=
ome leap of faith, being that security is not perfect.=C2=A0 You either tru=
st ARM or Intel or Microchip or whoever to get it right or you don=E2=80=99=
t.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Right, Laurence is pointing =
out that Ned&#39;s definition encompasses systems without the TEE.=C2=A0 I =
may be wrong, but it seems that point was missed in your response.</div><di=
v><br></div><div>I still think we can use the level model, where you have l=
evels of security assertions depending on implementation and point out the =
differences in security considerations.=C2=A0 We could establish a profile,=
 like PKI, and then leave it to another organization to define levels.=C2=
=A0 We would need to state risks of choices to have a proper security consi=
derations section to align with end point security that is likely to be in =
the IETF&#39;s evolved threat model per Montreal discussions.=C2=A0</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>Best regards,</div><div>Kathleen</div><div><br></div><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left=
:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: =
break-word;"><div><br></div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite">I find the defin=
ition much less useful in network protocol environment. We=E2=80=99re alrea=
dy trusting end points in very big ways. We trust TLS servers to protect th=
eir private keys, =C2=A0encrypting email clients to protect their keys and =
so on. Maybe we should call them &quot;points of trust=E2=80=9D. Most don=
=E2=80=99t leverage trusted computing architectures we use them all the tim=
e even though they have no root of trust. We trust them every day with thou=
sands of dollars of value in stock trading apps and such.</blockquote></div=
><div><br></div><div>What you describe in the above paragraph is not a choi=
ce but a technology limitation.=C2=A0 Is your point that you are seeking a =
self-asserted root of trust for every system on your network or that you wa=
nt trust anchored not in the TEE/OS but above those layers?=C2=A0 If so, wh=
at=E2=80=99s the value when the OS is hacked?</div><div><br></div><div>Elio=
t</div></div></blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><di=
v dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div>Best rega=
rds,</div><div>Kathleen</div></div></div></div>

--0000000000001d581c058f7285e7--


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From: Thomas Hardjono <hardjono@mit.edu>
To: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] No root of trust requirement in RATS/EAT
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Subject: Re: [Rats] No root of trust requirement in RATS/EAT
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>>> But note that this definition doesn=92t actually say the security of=20
>>> the root of trust is any good (which is counter to the way most use the=
 term).=20
>>> It is just a nice way to label the part that you have to trust.

So this very question ("root of trust is any good") was discussed in the TC=
G in the 1999-2000 timeframe in the context of what is meant by "trust" (wh=
at I now call technical-trust, versus legal-trust or business-trust). =20

I think it would be useful for RATS to define *technical-trust* first, befo=
re we can decide what's "good" or "bad".

This is what the TCG came-up with: =20

-- Something is trusted if:

(a) It does one specific function well (over & over again without change); =
 (NB. this is where designing the function correctly comes into play).

(b) Operates unhindered  (NB. this is where the non-interference rule & shi=
elded locations feature comes in);

(c) Is able to report the outcome truthfully (NB. this is where the RTR fea=
ture comes in).


Example:  we all trust our car-brakes (at least the mechanical ones) becaus=
e (a) I can open the hood and see the pedal, rods and mechanicals (master c=
ylinder, rotor, pads); (b) I can see that the brake pedal operates/pushes t=
he brake mechanicals; (c) It works every time correctly.



-- thomas --





________________________________________
From: RATS [rats-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Kathleen Moriarty [kathleen=
.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 6, 2019 9:07 AM
To: Eliot Lear
Cc: rats@ietf.org; Smith, Ned; Laurence Lundblade; Anders Rundgren
Subject: Re: [Rats] No root of trust requirement in RATS/EAT

On Tue, Aug 6, 2019 at 3:20 AM Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com<mailto:lear@cisco=
.com>> wrote:


On 6 Aug 2019, at 04:53, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com<mailto:l=
gl@island-resort.com>> wrote:

This definition is very clear and useful in a trusted computing environment=
. But note that this definition doesn=92t actually say the security of the =
root of trust is any good (which is counter to the way most use the term). =
It is just a nice way to label the part that you have to trust.

The whole point of the word =93trust=94 is that there is always some leap o=
f faith, being that security is not perfect.  You either trust ARM or Intel=
 or Microchip or whoever to get it right or you don=92t.

Right, Laurence is pointing out that Ned's definition encompasses systems w=
ithout the TEE.  I may be wrong, but it seems that point was missed in your=
 response.

I still think we can use the level model, where you have levels of security=
 assertions depending on implementation and point out the differences in se=
curity considerations.  We could establish a profile, like PKI, and then le=
ave it to another organization to define levels.  We would need to state ri=
sks of choices to have a proper security considerations section to align wi=
th end point security that is likely to be in the IETF's evolved threat mod=
el per Montreal discussions.

Best regards,
Kathleen


I find the definition much less useful in network protocol environment. We=
=92re already trusting end points in very big ways. We trust TLS servers to=
 protect their private keys,  encrypting email clients to protect their key=
s and so on. Maybe we should call them "points of trust=94. Most don=92t le=
verage trusted computing architectures we use them all the time even though=
 they have no root of trust. We trust them every day with thousands of doll=
ars of value in stock trading apps and such.

What you describe in the above paragraph is not a choice but a technology l=
imitation.  Is your point that you are seeking a self-asserted root of trus=
t for every system on your network or that you want trust anchored not in t=
he TEE/OS but above those layers?  If so, what=92s the value when the OS is=
 hacked?

Eliot


--

Best regards,
Kathleen=


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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
To: Thomas Hardjono <hardjono@mit.edu>, Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] No root of trust requirement in RATS/EAT
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Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2019 19:01:47 +0000
Message-ID: <864C25C7-4584-495C-A6CD-40D7C2207EE9@intel.com>
References: <2DE09A2A-A6EA-4474-9DBE-8D52B523645B@island-resort.com> <987fbfbb-b3f6-c104-878a-b283978ca0f0@gmail.com> <6F1E85F0-35CB-415A-9672-BD3257F59373@island-resort.com> <2c9ebe7b-9826-2d23-6f86-d098b79128d6@gmail.com> <CAHbuEH7i+SOTNSSar8DFo-dTm2NofL3NNEnHbFr_1yjTUMfDXA@mail.gmail.com> <A4E8245F-6A5F-4E6D-B940-41F43E8DBC38@intel.com> <8E4ED21F-EE52-4FAF-AFCB-A7624C56ED28@island-resort.com> <148D90BA-036A-4682-B920-4650182E2CB1@cisco.com> <CAHbuEH4Cg4PTBazVDcL7gx+iSm_e525Y+Jm=RCyBKu5vvwHSLg@mail.gmail.com> <ea462f1ed46047849d8849ed916255a8@oc11expo23.exchange.mit.edu>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] No root of trust requirement in RATS/EAT
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From: Thomas Hardjono <hardjono@mit.edu>
To: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] No root of trust requirement in RATS/EAT
Thread-Index: AQHVSvPUhaEckXFlEkiciiP4Ef5JxKbrnk6AgACjAICAABfBAIAAR+oAgADt6wCAACKkgIAASouAgABg+ID//78XE4AAo86A///0THA=
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2019 22:26:37 +0000
Message-ID: <bdacc6cbdfc94d2999f9d29da6fb0224@oc11expo23.exchange.mit.edu>
References: <2DE09A2A-A6EA-4474-9DBE-8D52B523645B@island-resort.com> <987fbfbb-b3f6-c104-878a-b283978ca0f0@gmail.com> <6F1E85F0-35CB-415A-9672-BD3257F59373@island-resort.com> <2c9ebe7b-9826-2d23-6f86-d098b79128d6@gmail.com> <CAHbuEH7i+SOTNSSar8DFo-dTm2NofL3NNEnHbFr_1yjTUMfDXA@mail.gmail.com> <A4E8245F-6A5F-4E6D-B940-41F43E8DBC38@intel.com> <8E4ED21F-EE52-4FAF-AFCB-A7624C56ED28@island-resort.com> <148D90BA-036A-4682-B920-4650182E2CB1@cisco.com> <CAHbuEH4Cg4PTBazVDcL7gx+iSm_e525Y+Jm=RCyBKu5vvwHSLg@mail.gmail.com> <ea462f1ed46047849d8849ed916255a8@oc11expo23.exchange.mit.edu>, <864C25C7-4584-495C-A6CD-40D7C2207EE9@intel.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/5LKRb6TuP3sN_yDvEXK8BilG9k4>
Subject: Re: [Rats] No root of trust requirement in RATS/EAT
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To: Thomas Hardjono <hardjono@mit.edu>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] No root of trust requirement in RATS/EAT
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> On Aug 6, 2019, at 6:33 AM, Thomas Hardjono <hardjono@mit.edu> wrote:
>=20
> -- Something is trusted if:
>=20
> (a) It does one specific function well (over & over again without =
change);  (NB. this is where designing the function correctly comes into =
play).
>=20
> (b) Operates unhindered  (NB. this is where the non-interference rule =
& shielded locations feature comes in);
>=20
> (c) Is able to report the outcome truthfully (NB. this is where the =
RTR feature comes in).


I don=E2=80=99t think trust in can be yes-or-no in any kind of absolute =
sense when considering real world deployment. You can=E2=80=99t say this =
HW+SW is *always* trusted in every single use case. You probably don=E2=80=
=99t know all the use cases and attacks. The reality is attackers that =
might be willing to spend a lot of money (a nation state) or have high =
motivation (black hats) comes in.

One issue is whether or not there are SW bugs. This can never be =
determined absolutely. If you spend a lot of money on review, testing =
and analysis on a simple function, you can get close, but it is not =
guaranteed.=20

Another issue is local HW attacks. Circuit boards can be probed, chips =
decapped and glitched. Defense against these are expensive and not in =
common hardware. There are varying degrees of attacks and of defenses, =
so it is not yes-or-no.

Side channels are another. Could be power, RF, cache timing or such. =
Here also, there are varying degrees of attacks and of defenses, so it =
is not yes-or-no.

LL




--Apple-Mail=_155D0191-0A22-4C37-BBD4-9E3096FE15DC
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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
Aug 6, 2019, at 6:33 AM, Thomas Hardjono &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:hardjono@mit.edu" class=3D"">hardjono@mit.edu</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">-- Something is trusted =
if:</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">(a) It does =
one specific function well (over &amp; over again without change); =
&nbsp;(NB. this is where designing the function correctly comes into =
play).</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">(b) Operates =
unhindered &nbsp;(NB. this is where the non-interference rule &amp; =
shielded locations feature comes in);</span><br style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">(c) Is able to report the outcome truthfully (NB. this is =
where the RTR feature comes in).</span></div></blockquote></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I don=E2=80=99t think =
trust in can be yes-or-no in any kind of absolute sense when considering =
real world deployment. You can=E2=80=99t say this HW+SW is *always* =
trusted in every single use case. You probably don=E2=80=99t know all =
the use cases and attacks. The reality is attackers that might be =
willing to spend a lot of money (a nation state) or have high motivation =
(black hats) comes in.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">One issue is whether or not there are SW bugs. This can never =
be determined absolutely. If you spend a lot of money on review, testing =
and analysis on a simple function, you can get close, but it is not =
guaranteed.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Another issue is local HW attacks. Circuit boards can be =
probed, chips decapped and glitched. Defense against these are expensive =
and not in common hardware. There are varying degrees of attacks and of =
defenses, so it is not yes-or-no.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Side channels are another. Could be =
power, RF, cache timing or such. Here also, there are varying degrees of =
attacks and of defenses, so it is not yes-or-no.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: Thomas Hardjono <hardjono@mit.edu>
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
CC: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] No root of trust requirement in RATS/EAT
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Subject: Re: [Rats] No root of trust requirement in RATS/EAT
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>>> I don=92t think trust in can be yes-or-no in any kind of absolute sense=
 when considering=20
>>> real world deployment. You can=92t say this HW+SW is *always* trusted i=
n every=20
>>> single use case. You probably don=92t know all the use cases and attack=
s.=20
>>> The reality is attackers that might be willing to spend a lot of=20
>>> money (a nation state) or have high motivation (black hats) comes in.

Yes of course. I don't think I was claiming there is an absolutely secure  =
HW+SW that is *always* trusted in single use case. No one in security indus=
try has ever claimed this.

Everything can be cracked, but that doesn't mean we should not use "trusted=
 H/W" like the TPM.  This is why the notion of the TCB was developed (Orang=
e Book), but this is a separate discussion.

>>> One issue is whether or not there are SW bugs.=20
>>> This can never be determined absolutely.=20
>>> If you spend a lot of money on review, testing and analysis=20
>>> on a simple function, you can get close, but it is not guaranteed.
>>>=20
>>> Another issue is local HW attacks. Circuit boards can be probed,=20
>>> chips decapped and glitched. Defense against these are expensive
>>>  and not in common hardware. There are varying degrees of attacks=20
>>> and of defenses, so it is not yes-or-no.
>>>=20
>>> Side channels are another. Could be power, RF, cache timing or such.=20
>>> Here also, there are varying degrees of attacks and=20
>>> of defenses, so it is not yes-or-no.

@Laurence:  Thank you for this great explanation :-)


-- thomas ---


________________________________________
From: Laurence Lundblade [lgl@island-resort.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 6, 2019 6:41 PM
To: Thomas Hardjono
Cc: Kathleen Moriarty; Eliot Lear; rats@ietf.org; Smith, Ned; Anders Rundgr=
en
Subject: Re: [Rats] No root of trust requirement in RATS/EAT

On Aug 6, 2019, at 6:33 AM, Thomas Hardjono <hardjono@mit.edu<mailto:hardjo=
no@mit.edu>> wrote:

-- Something is trusted if:

(a) It does one specific function well (over & over again without change); =
 (NB. this is where designing the function correctly comes into play).

(b) Operates unhindered  (NB. this is where the non-interference rule & shi=
elded locations feature comes in);

(c) Is able to report the outcome truthfully (NB. this is where the RTR fea=
ture comes in).

I don=92t think trust in can be yes-or-no in any kind of absolute sense whe=
n considering real world deployment. You can=92t say this HW+SW is *always*=
 trusted in every single use case. You probably don=92t know all the use ca=
ses and attacks. The reality is attackers that might be willing to spend a =
lot of money (a nation state) or have high motivation (black hats) comes in=
.

One issue is whether or not there are SW bugs. This can never be determined=
 absolutely. If you spend a lot of money on review, testing and analysis on=
 a simple function, you can get close, but it is not guaranteed.

Another issue is local HW attacks. Circuit boards can be probed, chips deca=
pped and glitched. Defense against these are expensive and not in common ha=
rdware. There are varying degrees of attacks and of defenses, so it is not =
yes-or-no.

Side channels are another. Could be power, RF, cache timing or such. Here a=
lso, there are varying degrees of attacks and of defenses, so it is not yes=
-or-no.

LL=


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To: Thomas Hardjono <hardjono@mit.edu>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] No root of trust requirement in RATS/EAT
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> On Aug 6, 2019, at 3:54 PM, Thomas Hardjono <hardjono@mit.edu> wrote:
>=20
> Everything can be cracked, but that doesn't mean we should not use =
"trusted H/W" like the TPM.  This is why the notion of the TCB was =
developed (Orange Book), but this is a separate discussion.

So, not sure what you mean by =E2=80=98use =E2=80=9Ctrusted H/W=E2=80=9D =
like the TPM=E2=80=99. It could mean:

1) TPM chips are good and useful things for the world to use. I agree.

2) The term =E2=80=98trusted H/W=E2=80=99 has clear meaning. I disagree =
per my previous comments about degree.

3) We should use the term =E2=80=98trusted H/W=E2=80=99 in the RATS =
architecture document. I disagree because of 2) above and other =
comments.

I think =E2=80=98trusted=E2=80=99 can be yes-or-no in specific use cases =
where requirements and the threat model are clearly set and determined, =
but we are not working on one of those. Our attestation work has to span =
from use cases that only stand up to lame wanna be hackers to use cases =
that stand up to nation states.

LL


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
Aug 6, 2019, at 3:54 PM, Thomas Hardjono &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:hardjono@mit.edu" class=3D"">hardjono@mit.edu</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">Everything can be cracked, but =
that doesn't mean we should not use "trusted H/W" like the TPM. =
&nbsp;This is why the notion of the TCB was developed (Orange Book), but =
this is a separate discussion.</span></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">So, not sure what you mean by =E2=80=98use =
=E2=80=9Ctrusted H/W=E2=80=9D like the TPM=E2=80=99. It could =
mean:</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">1) TPM =
chips are good and useful things for the world to use. I =
agree.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">2) The =
term =E2=80=98trusted H/W=E2=80=99 has clear meaning. I disagree per my =
previous comments about degree.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">3) We should use the term =E2=80=98truste=
d H/W=E2=80=99 in the RATS architecture document. I disagree because of =
2) above and other comments.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I think =E2=80=98trusted=E2=80=99 can =
be yes-or-no in specific use cases where requirements and the threat =
model are clearly set and determined, but we are not working on one of =
those. Our attestation work has to span from use cases that only stand =
up to lame wanna be hackers to use cases that stand up to nation =
states.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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Subject: Re: [Rats] No root of trust requirement in RATS/EAT
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Hi,

> On 7 Aug 2019, at 01:23, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com> =
wrote:
>=20
>=20
> I think =E2=80=98trusted=E2=80=99 can be yes-or-no in specific use =
cases where requirements and the threat model are clearly set and =
determined, but we are not working on one of those. Our attestation work =
has to span from use cases that only stand up to lame wanna be hackers =
to use cases that stand up to nation states.


I would go further.  While I agree that there are no certainties, at the =
end of the day RATS provides values asserted by a particular entity that =
is authenticated via a root of trust for various purposes, some of which =
are likely to be automated, like anomaly detection, remediation =
management, etc.  That automation demands a small number of return =
values in its evaluation (e.g., expected, unexpected, and whether or not =
to trust the results).  The latter will require external configuration =
in advance.  The answer can only be yes or no.  If it is no, an =
exception process will kick in.  At that point a human will get =
involved.  The more a human has to get involved in that decision =
process, the less use the system will be.

Eliot


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Hi,<br class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite"=
 class=3D""><div class=3D"">On 7 Aug 2019, at 01:23, Laurence Lundblade =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" =
class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 16px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">I think =E2=80=98trusted=E2=80=99 can be yes-or-no in =
specific use cases where requirements and the threat model are clearly =
set and determined, but we are not working on one of those. Our =
attestation work has to span from use cases that only stand up to lame =
wanna be hackers to use cases that stand up to nation =
states.</span></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I would go further. &nbsp;While I agree =
that there are no certainties, at the end of the day RATS provides =
values asserted by a particular entity that is authenticated via a root =
of trust for various purposes, some of which are likely to be automated, =
like anomaly detection, remediation management, etc. &nbsp;That =
automation demands a small number of return values in its evaluation =
(e.g., expected, unexpected, and whether or not to trust the results). =
&nbsp;The latter will require external configuration in advance. =
&nbsp;The answer can only be yes or no. &nbsp;If it is no, an exception =
process will kick in. &nbsp;At that point a human will get involved. =
&nbsp;The more a human has to get involved in that decision process, the =
less use the system will be.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Eliot</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/p6OGZ2InRTkaLLx67OP8I7Bv3UI>
Subject: Re: [Rats] No root of trust requirement in RATS/EAT
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From: Simon Frost <Simon.Frost@arm.com>
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, Thomas Hardjono <hardjono@mit.edu>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, "Eliot Lear" <lear@cisco.com>, Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] No root of trust requirement in RATS/EAT
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Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2019 15:44:47 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/SeFc6q7rhCHTjMwRJYpWupx0mMs>
Subject: Re: [Rats] No root of trust requirement in RATS/EAT
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Subject: Re: [Rats] No root of trust requirement in RATS/EAT
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> On Aug 6, 2019, at 6:07 AM, Kathleen Moriarty =
<kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> I still think we can use the level model, where you have levels of =
security assertions depending on implementation and point out the =
differences in security considerations.  We could establish a profile, =
like PKI, and then leave it to another organization to define levels.  =
We would need to state risks of choices to have a proper security =
considerations section to align with end point security that is likely =
to be in the IETF's evolved threat model per Montreal discussions.=20

Here=E2=80=99s a description of what we=E2=80=99ve done in FIDO for =
certification levels. It=E2=80=99s just one example, but an interesting =
one because it spans lots of technologies (TEEs, SGX, secure elements, =
Linux, Windows, standalone USB tokens and so on) and a wide range of =
security and use cases. The FIDO protocol includes attestation.

Three main levels are defined. Then there is a =E2=80=9C+=E2=80=9D =
modifier for each level:

L1: There are no hardware or system software requirements at all. A FIDO =
authenticator running anywhere can be certified. To a large degree this =
is about just trusting the hardware and software from the device / =
platform vendor. Cost to certify is under $10,000.

L2: There must be some sort of restricted operating environment like a =
TEE, SGX, secure element or such. The FIDO authenticator can=E2=80=99t =
be running in an environment like Linux or MacOS. A certification lab =
must be engaged. The cost to certify is vaguely around $100,000 (mostly =
lab fees).

L2+: The restricted operating environment (TEE or such) and =
authenticator application must be certified. This can be quite =
expensive, but typically the TEE or such will already have been =
certified.

L3: In addition to L2+, there must be defenses against hardware attacks =
at the circuit board level. This might be just a multi-layer PCB, =
potting or a really difficult to open enclosure. L3 is intended to =
defend against devices that have physically been captured by the =
attacker.=20

L3+: In addition there must be defenses against chip-level attacks. =
Smart cards and secure elements have these defenses today.

You could say that L1 is kind of =E2=80=9Cbest practice=E2=80=9D, L2 is =
about reduced attack surface to address network-born scalable attacks =
and L3 adds HW defenses to deal with a lost phone or such that the =
attacker tries to disassemble. Different use cases need different levels =
of protection.

Certification programs is typically are set up with three participants =
to prevent collusion:
1) Many vendors of technology, the ones being certified
2) Several qualified certification labs that do the evaluation
3) A single issuer / overseer of the certification program

In the case of FIDO, the FIDO Alliance is the overseer. They collect =
fees, qualify labs, set requirements and issue the certifications. They =
very explicitly have a committed to do this with staff, legal and =
financial structure. Things like revocations, expiration and dispute =
policy are addressed.

More info is here <https://fidoalliance.org/certification/> and here =
<https://fidoalliance.org/certification/authenticator-certification-levels=
/>.

A main point is that there is a big range here. There is degree. There =
is no binary trust decision.

LL








--Apple-Mail=_6507696B-65A9-4DC5-B18B-22F71FA418FB
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
Aug 6, 2019, at 6:07 AM, Kathleen Moriarty &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">I still think we can use the =
level model, where you have levels of security assertions depending on =
implementation and point out the differences in security =
considerations.&nbsp; We could establish a profile, like PKI, and then =
leave it to another organization to define levels.&nbsp; We would need =
to state risks of choices to have a proper security considerations =
section to align with end point security that is likely to be in the =
IETF's evolved threat model per Montreal =
discussions.&nbsp;</span></div></blockquote><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Here=E2=80=99s a description of what we=E2=80=99ve =
done in FIDO for certification levels. It=E2=80=99s just one example, =
but an interesting one because it spans lots of technologies (TEEs, SGX, =
secure elements, Linux, Windows, standalone USB tokens and so on) and a =
wide range of security and use cases. The FIDO protocol includes =
attestation.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Three main levels are =
defined. Then there is a =E2=80=9C+=E2=80=9D modifier for each =
level:</div><div><br class=3D""></div><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 =
40px; border: none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div>L1: There are no =
hardware or system software requirements at all. A FIDO authenticator =
running anywhere can be certified. To a large degree this is about just =
trusting the hardware and software from the device / platform vendor. =
Cost to certify is under $10,000.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>L2: =
There must be some sort of restricted operating environment like a TEE, =
SGX, secure element or such. The FIDO authenticator can=E2=80=99t be =
running in an environment like Linux or MacOS. A certification lab must =
be engaged. The cost to certify is vaguely around $100,000 (mostly lab =
fees).</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>L2+: The restricted operating =
environment (TEE or such) and authenticator application must be =
certified. This can be quite expensive, but typically the TEE or such =
will already have been certified.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>L3: =
In addition to L2+, there must be defenses against hardware attacks at =
the circuit board level. This might be just a multi-layer PCB, potting =
or a really difficult to open enclosure. L3 is intended to defend =
against devices that have physically been captured by the =
attacker.&nbsp;</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>L3+: In addition =
there must be defenses against chip-level attacks. Smart cards and =
secure elements have these defenses today.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote>You could say that L1 is kind of =E2=80=9Cbe=
st practice=E2=80=9D, L2 is about reduced attack surface to address =
network-born scalable attacks and L3 adds HW defenses to deal with a =
lost phone or such that the attacker tries to disassemble. Different use =
cases need different levels of protection.<br class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;" =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""></div></blockquote>Certification programs =
is typically are set up with three participants to prevent =
collusion:<blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; =
padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D"">1) Many vendors of technology, =
the ones being certified</div><div class=3D"">2) Several qualified =
certification labs that do the evaluation</div><div class=3D"">3) A =
single issuer / overseer of the certification program</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></blockquote>In the case of FIDO, the =
FIDO Alliance is the overseer. They collect fees, qualify labs, set =
requirements and issue the certifications. They very explicitly have a =
committed to do this with staff, legal and financial structure. Things =
like revocations, expiration and dispute policy are addressed.<div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">More info is&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://fidoalliance.org/certification/" =
class=3D"">here</a>&nbsp;and&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://fidoalliance.org/certification/authenticator-certification=
-levels/" class=3D"">here</a>.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">A main point is that there is a big =
range here. There is degree. There is no binary trust =
decision.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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This discussion about Root of Trust seems silly.

There are no absolute trusts.

  All paths of trust start from a local trust anchor in the verifier and/or
  relying party. They are *ALL* circles of signed statements (whether claims
  or certificates)

There is no need to invoke an infinity of turtles.

(Rivert and co. said this in SDSI/SPKI in RFC2692/2693 and in a number of
papers.)

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--=-=-=
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Simon Frost <Simon.Frost@arm.com> wrote:
    >> I think =E2=80=98trusted=E2=80=99 can be yes-or-no in specific use c=
ases where
    >> requirements and the threat model are clearly set and determined, but
    >> we are not working on one of those. Our attestation work has to span
    >> from use cases that only stand up to lame wanna be hackers to use
    >> cases that stand up to nation states.

    > Perhaps it=E2=80=99s appropriate then that the Use Cases document is =
annotated
    > with expectations of Trust or interpretations of RoT per use case
    > rather than putting an over generalisation into the Architecture spec?

Are you saying that each use case should indicate what kind of trusted
path is required?  If so, then I agree.

Based upon the feedback at IETF105, I have a bunch of similar use cases
which are probably distinguished by the kinds of trust, or perhaps degree of
paranoia^W^W^Wlevels of assurance required.

=2D-
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-




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Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> wrote:
    > There are two aspects here:


    > * What is specified in terms of interoperability
    > * What is described as part of the bigger picture.

    > IETF specifications, as you correctly noted below, do not specify many
    > aspects of the big picture. While there are some documents that try to
    > describe them as part of architecture documents IETF documents never go
    > into the details of most things.

I agree with you strongly.

Where I think we are getting into trouble is that
1) our charter says that we can go beyond just documenting the
   (interoperable) claims into designing a transport protocol,
   and I think that the details of that start to be attractive nuissances.

2) it might be that some want to have different claims that differ only
   in their degree of assurance.  That is, there is a difference between:

   "Little Bobby said the babysitter said that Sarah could watch the scary
            movie on TV"
 vs
   "Little Bobby has a note from Mom that says that Sarah could watch
           the scary movie on TV"



--
]               Never tell me the odds!                 | ipv6 mesh networks [
]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works        |    IoT architect   [
]     mcr@sandelman.ca  http://www.sandelman.ca/        |   ruby on rails    [




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Subject: Re: [Rats] No root of trust requirement in RATS/EAT
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Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com> wrote:
    > Here=E2=80=99s a description of what we=E2=80=99ve done in FIDO for c=
ertification
    > levels. It=E2=80=99s just one example, but an interesting one because=
 it spans
    > lots of technologies (TEEs, SGX, secure elements, Linux, Windows,

Would these different levels (L1,L2,L3,+) be visible in claims two layers
away?

For instance, would the recipient of funds transfer be able to see how the
authorization was attested to by the senders' bank?

=2D-
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-




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From: Simon Frost <Simon.Frost@arm.com>
To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] No root of trust requirement in RATS/EAT
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/47Vz7XpqrL9TEDi1Km0Gs6YNCj4>
Subject: Re: [Rats] No root of trust requirement in RATS/EAT
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Subject: [Rats] Hypothetical example of trust establishment
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Here=E2=80=99s a hypothetical example of how I think trust is =
established in RATS. It=E2=80=99s only one of many possible means.

This example uses the term manufacturer, for the organization that =
builds the chip, the OS for the chip, the attestation implementation and =
the final product assembly. Say it=E2=80=99s an IoT sensor. The =
manufacturer builds everything from scratch. I=E2=80=99m depicting this =
way to keep the example simple.


During Manufacturing of the sensor
The manufacturer designs the sensor and builds prototypes
They receive some certification for their sensor design
They make the chip, the OS and attestation implementation
They generate the attestation key pair and signs public key into an =
X.509 cert and sign it under their attestation root for the particular =
sensor product and certification.
They put the private key and X.509 cert into the sensor
The sensor ships to the customer

Manufacturer Publication
The manufacturer publishes the following about their sensor:
Model number and product description
Certifications received probably with link to certifying organization so =
it can be checked
Attestation root X.509 certificate for that product and certification =
level

The Attestation is Produced
The nonce is received from the verifier/RP and input into the attestator
The claims are created
The token is signed with the attestation signing private key
The X.509 cert with the public key is put in the right COSE/JOSE header
The token is transmitted to the verifier/RP


The RP Decides Whether to Trust for Their Particular Use Case
The RP decides what types of certifications are good for their use case
The RP fetches the attestation roots from manufacturers with such =
products and certifications
The attestation is received from the sensor with X.509 cert
They chain up the individual sensor cert to the trusted manufacturer's =
attestation root


Some other variants might use a more elaborate X.509 hierarchy. Others =
might not use X.509 at all with the manufacturer operating a public key =
look up service based on key ID. There might even be some third parties =
that brokers trust for multiple manufacturers and certification types.

Some of this may have manual out-of-band steps to set up the initial =
trust of the manufacturer. (I think this may be akin to a user =
downloading a web browser with CA roots embedded, the basis of a lot of =
TLS trust).

There might be other criteria than certification. It might just be =
enough to know it is a particular manufacturer and model based on the =
signing keys.

LL=

--Apple-Mail=_8C2208A5-CB87-4632-930F-245CE8B38EFC
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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Here=E2=80=99s a hypothetical example of how I think trust is =
established in RATS. It=E2=80=99s only one of many possible means.<div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This example uses the =
term <i class=3D"">manufacturer, </i>for the organization that builds =
the chip, the OS for the chip, the attestation implementation and the =
final product assembly. Say it=E2=80=99s an IoT sensor. The <i =
class=3D"">manufacturer </i>builds everything from scratch. I=E2=80=99m =
depicting this way to keep the example simple.<br class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">During Manufacturing of the =
sensor</b></div><div class=3D""><ol class=3D""><li class=3D"">The =
manufacturer designs the sensor and builds prototypes</li><li =
class=3D"">They receive some certification for their sensor =
design</li><li class=3D"">They make the chip, the OS and attestation =
implementation</li><li class=3D"">They generate the attestation key pair =
and signs public key into an X.509 cert and sign it under their =
attestation root for the particular sensor product and =
certification.</li><li class=3D"">They put the private key and X.509 =
cert into the sensor</li><li class=3D"">The sensor ships to the =
customer</li></ol></div></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Manufacturer Publication</b></div><div =
class=3D"">The manufacturer publishes the following about their =
sensor:</div><div class=3D""><ul class=3D""><li class=3D"">Model number =
and product description</li><li class=3D"">Certifications received =
probably with link to certifying organization so it can be =
checked</li><li class=3D"">Attestation root X.509 certificate for that =
product and certification level</li></ul><div class=3D""><b class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""></b></div><div class=3D""><b class=3D"">The Attestation is =
Produced</b></div></div><div class=3D""><ul class=3D"MailOutline"><li =
class=3D"">The nonce is received from the verifier/RP and input into the =
attestator</li><li class=3D"">The claims are created</li><li =
class=3D"">The token is signed with the attestation signing private =
key</li><li class=3D"">The X.509 cert with the public key is put in the =
right COSE/JOSE header</li><li class=3D"">The token is transmitted to =
the verifier/RP</li></ul><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><b class=3D"">The RP =
Decides Whether to Trust <i class=3D"">for Their Particular Use =
Case</i></b></div><div class=3D""><ul class=3D"MailOutline"><li =
class=3D"">The RP decides what types of certifications are good for =
their use case</li><li class=3D"">The RP fetches the attestation roots =
from manufacturers with such products and certifications</li><li =
class=3D"">The attestation is received from the sensor with X.509 =
cert</li><li class=3D"">They chain up the individual sensor cert to the =
trusted manufacturer's attestation root</li></ul><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Some other variants might use a more elaborate X.509 =
hierarchy. Others might not use X.509 at all with the manufacturer =
operating a public key look up service based on key ID. There might even =
be some third parties that brokers trust for multiple manufacturers and =
certification types.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Some of this may have manual out-of-band steps to set up the =
initial trust of the manufacturer. (I think this may be akin to a user =
downloading a web browser with CA roots embedded, the basis of a lot of =
TLS trust).</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">There might be other criteria than certification. It might =
just be enough to know it is a particular manufacturer and model based =
on the signing keys.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">LL</div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_8C2208A5-CB87-4632-930F-245CE8B38EFC--


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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] No root of trust requirement in RATS/EAT
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Cc: Thomas Hardjono <hardjono@mit.edu>, Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com>
To: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
References: <2DE09A2A-A6EA-4474-9DBE-8D52B523645B@island-resort.com> <987fbfbb-b3f6-c104-878a-b283978ca0f0@gmail.com> <6F1E85F0-35CB-415A-9672-BD3257F59373@island-resort.com> <2c9ebe7b-9826-2d23-6f86-d098b79128d6@gmail.com> <CAHbuEH7i+SOTNSSar8DFo-dTm2NofL3NNEnHbFr_1yjTUMfDXA@mail.gmail.com> <A4E8245F-6A5F-4E6D-B940-41F43E8DBC38@intel.com> <8E4ED21F-EE52-4FAF-AFCB-A7624C56ED28@island-resort.com> <148D90BA-036A-4682-B920-4650182E2CB1@cisco.com> <CAHbuEH4Cg4PTBazVDcL7gx+iSm_e525Y+Jm=RCyBKu5vvwHSLg@mail.gmail.com> <ea462f1ed46047849d8849ed916255a8@oc11expo23.exchange.mit.edu> <864C25C7-4584-495C-A6CD-40D7C2207EE9@intel.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/1w7DfKkfIN8dmlMKreFWkvFtWqw>
Subject: Re: [Rats] No root of trust requirement in RATS/EAT
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Hi Ned,

> On Aug 6, 2019, at 12:01 PM, Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com> wrote:
>=20
> The intent of my previous reply was to have a scoping discussion. The =
RATS WG likely doesn't have resources / interest / charter to define =
drafts for every topic relevant to remote attestation. Nevertheless, we =
can identify the topics we chose not to define and label them so that we =
have a vocabulary to talk about them (without creating drafts that =
defines them).=20
>=20
> Laurence's original point was that RoT was something the WG shouldn't =
define (in a draft) to which I concur. Nevertheless, there is a need to =
talk about the part of the device (entity) where detection of =
misbehavior is not possible. This part can't be attested (by =
definition). If we don't like the term root of trust then we can invent =
something else. If we go with something like =
"the-entity-whose-misbehavior-cannot-be-detected", that is longish to =
type. If we go with root-of-trust then it is something most of the rest =
of the industry understands is something whose misbehavior can't be =
detected, though there may be additional connotations. RATS WG has the =
option of including a terminology section that clarifies for the reader =
of RATS drafts what properties of the terms we use are most relevant.

My original point is that RATS should not put any requirements on =
implementation.

If a root of trust is required, that will imply HW security requirements =
on the implementation for most people
If we redefine root of trust so that it doesn=E2=80=99t imply any =
requirements on the implementation, we will confuse
We MUST allow generation of attestations from subsystems other than =
the-entity-whose-misbehavior-cannot-be-detected
Implementation requirements would be a large divergence from most other =
IETF-defined protocols like TLS and COSE

Maybe we can just call it the =E2=80=9Cattester=E2=80=9D and say that it =
is the thing that has the attestation signing key and generates the =
attestation. Say that in many cases, particularly those with better =
security, the attester will be what is traditionally known as a =E2=80=9Cr=
oot of trust=E2=80=9D. Some implementation profiles will require a root =
of trust.

>=20
> Looking at this topic from the perspective of what can be attested, it =
suggests that the claims attested should be properties where misbehavior =
can be detected. For example, a hash of firmware A will not describe =
firmware B as long as the hashing was performed correctly. It may not be =
possible to detect if the hash of A was performed correctly (since an =
attacker could have input B and said the output was A) therefore that =
belongs in the RoT.=20

The real basis for attestation trust is actually out-of-band trust =
establishment between the relying party and manufacturer or such as =
I=E2=80=99ve tried to illustrate in my recent hypothetical example.  It =
seems to me that the real trust in TLS is established out of band =
through the download of a web browser containing roots by the end user. =
This is similar.=20

>=20
> It is a security faux pas to expect the environment reporting attested =
values can attest to its own security properties. There needs to be =
finer granularity decomposition to separate what is the RoT =
functionality from the attestable functionality. Hence, the term =
'turtles all the way down=E2=80=99.

There is a non-turtle in the out-of-band interaction.=20


> Since the RATS WG scope doesn't anticipate wanting / needing to define =
specific turtles, working group participants should have something in =
mind in terms a turtle that is a root of trust and a turtle that is =
attestable. They can forward claims about the attestable turtle and =
agree that the root of trust turtle can be identified (e.g. vendor, =
model, version - and some way to authenticate these values) but it is up =
to the verifier to have a policy for what it accepts as its =
root-of-trust turtles. The RoT turtle is the starting point for =
evaluating the turtles that can be attested.=20

For TPMs and the TCG I think there may be a non-turtle out-of-band =
interaction that is tacitly assumed and baked into "root of trust=E2=80=9D=
. The TCG sharply defines the functionality and security of the TPM. TPM =
vendors all precisely adhere to this. There is also a strong HW-oriented =
Common Criteria certification program. I think there are also =
conventions for key distribution the TPM world. A TPM vendor diverging =
from this wouldn=E2=80=99t sell any product so all of this is =
ever-present and uniform. (I=E2=80=99m not a TPM expert, so hopefully I =
have got this right).

Seems like the GP / TEE world has some of this too, though not as much.

I am aiming for RATS applicable in a broader way with no tie to =
implementation security. The same sort of broadness that TLS has.

LL


--Apple-Mail=_EC854B3C-30BE-414D-9E8B-40BB906178B6
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Hi =
Ned,<br class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Aug 6, 2019, at 12:01 PM, Smith, Ned =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com" =
class=3D"">ned.smith@intel.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">The =
intent of my previous reply was to have a scoping discussion. The RATS =
WG likely doesn't have resources / interest / charter to define drafts =
for every topic relevant to remote attestation. Nevertheless, we can =
identify the topics we chose not to define and label them so that we =
have a vocabulary to talk about them (without creating drafts that =
defines them). <br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Laurence's original point =
was that RoT was something the WG shouldn't define (in a draft) to which =
I concur. Nevertheless, there is a need to talk about the part of the =
device (entity) where detection of misbehavior is not possible. This =
part can't be attested (by definition). If we don't like the term root =
of trust then we can invent something else. If we go with something like =
"the-entity-whose-misbehavior-cannot-be-detected", that is longish to =
type. If we go with root-of-trust then it is something most of the rest =
of the industry understands is something whose misbehavior can't be =
detected, though there may be additional connotations. RATS WG has the =
option of including a terminology section that clarifies for the reader =
of RATS drafts what properties of the terms we use are most relevant.<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>My =
original point is that RATS should not put any requirements on =
implementation.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><ul =
class=3D"MailOutline"><li class=3D"">If a root of trust is required, =
that will imply HW security requirements on the implementation for most =
people</li><li class=3D"">If we redefine root of trust so that it =
doesn=E2=80=99t imply any requirements on the implementation, we will =
confuse</li><li class=3D"">We MUST allow generation of attestations from =
subsystems other than =
the-entity-whose-misbehavior-cannot-be-detected</li><li =
class=3D"">Implementation requirements would be a large divergence from =
most other IETF-defined protocols like TLS and COSE</li></ul><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Maybe we can just call =
it the =E2=80=9Cattester=E2=80=9D and say that it is the thing that has =
the attestation signing key and generates the attestation. Say that in =
many cases, particularly those with better security, the attester will =
be what is traditionally known as a =E2=80=9Croot of trust=E2=80=9D. =
Some implementation profiles will require a root of trust.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D"">Looking at =
this topic from the perspective of what can be attested, it suggests =
that the claims attested should be properties where misbehavior can be =
detected. For example, a hash of firmware A will not describe firmware B =
as long as the hashing was performed correctly. It may not be possible =
to detect if the hash of A was performed correctly (since an attacker =
could have input B and said the output was A) therefore that belongs in =
the RoT. <br class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>The real basis for attestation trust is actually =
out-of-band trust establishment between the relying party and =
manufacturer or such as I=E2=80=99ve tried to illustrate in my recent =
hypothetical example. &nbsp;It seems to me that the real trust in TLS is =
established out of band through the download of a web browser containing =
roots by the end user. This is similar.&nbsp;</div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">It is a security faux pas to expect the =
environment reporting attested values can attest to its own security =
properties. There needs to be finer granularity decomposition to =
separate what is the RoT functionality from the attestable =
functionality. Hence, the term 'turtles all the way =
down=E2=80=99.</div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>There is a non-turtle in the out-of-band =
interaction.&nbsp;</div><div><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Since the RATS WG scope doesn't anticipate wanting / needing =
to define specific turtles, working group participants should have =
something in mind in terms a turtle that is a root of trust and a turtle =
that is attestable. They can forward claims about the attestable turtle =
and agree that the root of trust turtle can be identified (e.g. vendor, =
model, version - and some way to authenticate these values) but it is up =
to the verifier to have a policy for what it accepts as its =
root-of-trust turtles. The RoT turtle is the starting point for =
evaluating the turtles that can be attested. <br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>For =
TPMs and the TCG I think there may be a non-turtle out-of-band =
interaction that is tacitly assumed and baked into "root of trust=E2=80=9D=
. The TCG sharply defines the functionality and security of the TPM. TPM =
vendors all precisely adhere to this. There is also a strong HW-oriented =
Common Criteria certification program. I think there are also =
conventions for key distribution the TPM world. A TPM vendor diverging =
from this wouldn=E2=80=99t sell any product so all of this is =
ever-present and uniform. (I=E2=80=99m not a TPM expert, so hopefully I =
have got this right).</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Seems like the =
GP / TEE world has some of this too, though not as much.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>I am aiming for RATS applicable in a broader way =
with no tie to implementation security. The same sort of broadness that =
TLS has.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>LL</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_EC854B3C-30BE-414D-9E8B-40BB906178B6--


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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
CC: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, Thomas Hardjono <hardjono@mit.edu>, Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>, Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] No root of trust requirement in RATS/EAT
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Subject: Re: [Rats] No root of trust requirement in RATS/EAT
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> On Aug 9, 2019, at 3:44 PM, Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com> wrote:
> =20
> My original point is that RATS should not put any requirements on =
implementation.
> [nms] I infer you mean RATS should not put any trust requirements on =
implementation?=20

The mainline RATS documents should have no security requirements or =
strength-of-function requirements on the implementation roughly meaning:
No requirement for how well it protects the signing key from SW attacks, =
HW attacks, side channels and such
No requirement that the owner of the device can=E2=80=99t replace the SW =
or change the keys (no secure / trusted boot)
Other similar...

Protocol requirements are obviously necessary. Security recommendations =
are fine (but not MUSTs or SHOULDs).

=E2=80=A6skipping the complex discussion on trust and roles for now.

>=20
> Maybe different terminology besides root of trust will be helpful?

I think it is necessary. It should be defined in the architecture =
document.

The roles in the architecture document are not clear to me yet. =
=E2=80=9CAttester=E2=80=9D seemed the closest.


> =20
> ...The intent of the architecture draft is that the Attester role =
doesn=E2=80=99t imply any particular strength-of-function to be =
considered an Attester. It also isn=E2=80=99t trying to imply that there =
is no such thing as strength-of-function (or whatever words we use to =
capture the idea of level of implementation hardening and/or resistance =
to attack).

Agree with this.

>>=20
>> Looking at this topic from the perspective of what can be attested, =
it suggests that the claims attested should be properties where =
misbehavior can be detected. For example, a hash of firmware A will not =
describe firmware B as long as the hashing was performed correctly. It =
may not be possible to detect if the hash of A was performed correctly =
(since an attacker could have input B and said the output was A) =
therefore that belongs in the RoT.
> =20
> The real basis for attestation trust is actually out-of-band trust =
establishment between the relying party and manufacturer or such as =
I=E2=80=99ve tried to illustrate in my recent hypothetical example.  It =
seems to me that the real trust in TLS is established out of band =
through the download of a web browser containing roots by the end user. =
This is similar.=20
> =20
> [nms] Using the roles terminology architecture draft you appear to be =
saying the following:
> =E2=80=9CThe basis for believing evidence from the Attester (by the =
Verifier or Relying Party) is actually tied to an out-of-band flow of =
Assertions from one or more Asserters.=E2=80=9D
> This makes sense and resonates with what is depicted in the =
architecture diagrams and in the architecture draft.  Definition of =
flows to and from the Asserter (claimant) are currently out of scope for =
the WG but will be described in the architecture draft. Your point seems =
to be that Verifier / Relying Party depends on this out-of-band flow in =
order to arrive at any sort of meaningful conclusion about =
trustworthiness of evidence.

Yes.

It seemed like to some that requiring a root of trust solves this =
problem of trust. I was bringing up the out-of-band flow to show how =
trust is really established.

> To which I fully agree.


LL=

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
Aug 9, 2019, at 3:44 PM, Smith, Ned &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com" class=3D"">ned.smith@intel.com</a>&gt;=
 wrote:</div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: =
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font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">My original point is that RATS should =
not put any requirements on implementation.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">[nms] I =
infer you mean RATS should not put any<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D"background-color: yellow; background-position: initial initial; =
background-repeat: initial initial;" class=3D"">trust</span><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>requirements on =
implementation?<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></div></div></div></div></div=
></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>The mainline RATS documents =
should have no security requirements or strength-of-function =
requirements on the implementation roughly meaning:</div><div><ul =
class=3D"MailOutline"><li class=3D"">No requirement for how well it =
protects the signing key from SW attacks, HW attacks, side channels and =
such</li><li class=3D"">No requirement that the owner of the device =
can=E2=80=99t replace the SW or change the keys (no secure / trusted =
boot)</li><li class=3D"">Other similar...</li></ul></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Protocol requirements are obviously necessary. =
Security recommendations are fine (but not MUSTs or =
SHOULDs).</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>=E2=80=A6skipping the =
complex discussion on trust and roles for now.</div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Maybe =
different terminology besides root of trust will be =
helpful?</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>I think it is necessary. It should be defined in =
the architecture document.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>The roles =
in the architecture document are not clear to me yet. =E2=80=9CAttester=E2=
=80=9D seemed the closest.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">...The =
intent of the architecture draft is that the Attester role doesn=E2=80=99t=
 imply any particular strength-of-function to be considered an Attester. =
It also isn=E2=80=99t trying to imply that there is no such thing as =
strength-of-function (or whatever words we use to capture the idea of =
level of implementation hardening and/or resistance to =
attack).</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Agree with this.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D"">Looking=
 at this topic from the perspective of what can be attested, it suggests =
that the claims attested should be properties where misbehavior can be =
detected. For example, a hash of firmware A will not describe firmware B =
as long as the hashing was performed correctly. It may not be possible =
to detect if the hash of A was performed correctly (since an attacker =
could have input B and said the output was A) therefore that belongs in =
the RoT.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">The real basis for attestation trust is actually =
out-of-band trust establishment between the relying party and =
manufacturer or such as I=E2=80=99ve tried to illustrate in my recent =
hypothetical example. &nbsp;It seems to me that the real trust in TLS is =
established out of band through the download of a web browser containing =
roots by the end user. This is similar.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt =
0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p=
 class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">[nms] =
Using the roles terminology architecture draft you appear to be saying =
the following:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">=E2=80=9CThe basis for believing evidence from the Attester =
(by the Verifier or Relying Party) is actually tied to an out-of-band =
flow of Assertions from one or more =
Asserters.=E2=80=9D</div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: =
WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;"><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">This =
makes sense and resonates with what is depicted in the architecture =
diagrams and in the architecture draft. &nbsp;Definition of flows to and =
from the Asserter (claimant) are currently out of scope for the WG but =
will be described in the architecture draft. Your point seems to be that =
Verifier / Relying Party depends on this out-of-band flow in order to =
arrive at any sort of meaningful conclusion about trustworthiness of =
evidence. </div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Yes.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>It seemed =
like to some that requiring a root of trust solves this problem of =
trust. I was bringing up the out-of-band flow to show how trust is =
really established.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; =
caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">To which I fully =
agree.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>LL</div></div></body></html>=

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From: Ira McDonald <blueroofmusic@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 2019 08:28:23 -0400
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To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, Ira McDonald <blueroofmusic@gmail.com>
Cc: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>,  Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, Thomas Hardjono <hardjono@mit.edu>,  Eliot Lear <lear@cisco.com>, Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] No root of trust requirement in RATS/EAT
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Hi,

I agree with Laurence that this (usually ignored) out-of-band flow of
configuration information for keys, key usage, and "trustworthiness"
attestation context is important to recognize in RATS architecture
(and to mention in RATS information model).

Ned correctly quoted the essence of the US NIST definition of an RoT
earlier in this thread.

But I've always strongly disliked that definition, because it consists of
saying one thing about whats NOT true about an RoT (never use a
negative in a definition is a good rule of thumb).  But it says nothing
about what functionality an RoT *does* provide.

It's true that a Verifier always does make a binary decision about
instantaneous "trustworthiness".  So what.  That decision might
well be different a moment later or for a different requested access
or operation permission.

The historic focus (not just in TCG) on the value of "secure boot" is
pretty irrelevant for a server (or mobile phone) that booted up months
ago.  It's only the *current* state of the Attester's device or application
that's actually useful.

Cheers,
- Ira

Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)
Co-Chair - TCG Trusted Mobility Solutions WG
Co-Chair - TCG Metadata Access Protocol SG
Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG
Secretary - IEEE-ISTO Printer Working Group
Co-Chair - IEEE-ISTO PWG Internet Printing Protocol WG
IETF Designated Expert - IPP & Printer MIB
Blue Roof Music / High North Inc
http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic
http://sites.google.com/site/highnorthinc
mailto: blueroofmusic@gmail.com
PO Box 221  Grand Marais, MI 49839  906-494-2434



On Fri, Aug 9, 2019 at 10:02 PM Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
wrote:

>
> On Aug 9, 2019, at 3:44 PM, Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com> wrote:
>
> My original point is that RATS should not put any requirements on
> implementation.
> [nms] I infer you mean RATS should not put any trust requirements on
> implementation?
>
>
> The mainline RATS documents should have no security requirements or
> strength-of-function requirements on the implementation roughly meaning:
>
>    - No requirement for how well it protects the signing key from SW
>    attacks, HW attacks, side channels and such
>    - No requirement that the owner of the device can=E2=80=99t replace th=
e SW or
>    change the keys (no secure / trusted boot)
>    - Other similar...
>
>
> Protocol requirements are obviously necessary. Security recommendations
> are fine (but not MUSTs or SHOULDs).
>
> =E2=80=A6skipping the complex discussion on trust and roles for now.
>
>
> Maybe different terminology besides root of trust will be helpful?
>
>
> I think it is necessary. It should be defined in the architecture documen=
t.
>
> The roles in the architecture document are not clear to me yet. =E2=80=9C=
Attester=E2=80=9D
> seemed the closest.
>
>
>
> ...The intent of the architecture draft is that the Attester role doesn=
=E2=80=99t
> imply any particular strength-of-function to be considered an Attester. I=
t
> also isn=E2=80=99t trying to imply that there is no such thing as
> strength-of-function (or whatever words we use to capture the idea of lev=
el
> of implementation hardening and/or resistance to attack).
>
>
> Agree with this.
>
>
> Looking at this topic from the perspective of what can be attested, it
> suggests that the claims attested should be properties where misbehavior
> can be detected. For example, a hash of firmware A will not describe
> firmware B as long as the hashing was performed correctly. It may not be
> possible to detect if the hash of A was performed correctly (since an
> attacker could have input B and said the output was A) therefore that
> belongs in the RoT.
>
>
> The real basis for attestation trust is actually out-of-band trust
> establishment between the relying party and manufacturer or such as I=E2=
=80=99ve
> tried to illustrate in my recent hypothetical example.  It seems to me th=
at
> the real trust in TLS is established out of band through the download of =
a
> web browser containing roots by the end user. This is similar.
>
> [nms] Using the roles terminology architecture draft you appear to be
> saying the following:
> =E2=80=9CThe basis for believing evidence from the Attester (by the Verif=
ier or
> Relying Party) is actually tied to an out-of-band flow of Assertions from
> one or more Asserters.=E2=80=9D
>
> This makes sense and resonates with what is depicted in the architecture
> diagrams and in the architecture draft.  Definition of flows to and from
> the Asserter (claimant) are currently out of scope for the WG but will be
> described in the architecture draft. Your point seems to be that Verifier=
 /
> Relying Party depends on this out-of-band flow in order to arrive at any
> sort of meaningful conclusion about trustworthiness of evidence.
>
>
> Yes.
>
> It seemed like to some that requiring a root of trust solves this problem
> of trust. I was bringing up the out-of-band flow to show how trust is
> really established.
>
> To which I fully agree.
>
>
>
> LL
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi,</div><div><br></div><div>I agree with Laurence th=
at this (usually ignored) out-of-band flow of <br></div><div>configuration =
information for keys, key usage, and &quot;trustworthiness&quot;</div><div>=
attestation context is important to recognize in RATS architecture <br></di=
v><div>(and to mention in RATS information model).</div><div><br></div><div=
>Ned correctly quoted the essence of the US NIST definition of an RoT</div>=
<div>earlier in this thread.</div><div><br></div><div>But I&#39;ve always s=
trongly disliked that definition, because it consists of <br></div><div>say=
ing one thing about whats NOT true about an RoT (never use a <br></div><div=
>negative in a definition is a good rule of thumb).=C2=A0 But it says nothi=
ng <br></div><div>about what functionality an RoT *does* provide.</div><div=
><br></div><div>It&#39;s true that a Verifier always does make a binary dec=
ision about</div><div>instantaneous &quot;trustworthiness&quot;.=C2=A0 So w=
hat.=C2=A0 That decision might</div><div>well be different a moment later o=
r for a different requested access</div><div>or operation permission.=C2=A0=
 <br></div><div><br></div><div>The historic focus (not just in TCG) on the =
value of &quot;secure boot&quot; is <br></div><div>pretty irrelevant for a =
server (or mobile phone) that booted up months <br></div><div>ago.=C2=A0 It=
&#39;s only the *current* state of the Attester&#39;s device or application=
 <br></div><div>that&#39;s actually useful.</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers=
,</div><div>- Ira</div><div><br></div><div><div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"g=
mail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><d=
iv dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">Ira McDonald (Mu=
sician / Software Architect)<br>Co-Chair - TCG Trusted Mobility Solutions W=
G</div><div>Co-Chair - TCG Metadata Access Protocol SG<br></div><div dir=3D=
"ltr">Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG<br>Secretary - IEEE-ISTO Pr=
inter Working Group<br>Co-Chair - IEEE-ISTO PWG Internet Printing Protocol =
WG<br>IETF Designated Expert - IPP &amp; Printer MIB<br>Blue Roof Music / H=
igh North Inc<br><a style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,255)" href=3D"http://sites.goo=
gle.com/site/blueroofmusic" target=3D"_blank">http://sites.google.com/site/=
blueroofmusic</a><br><a style=3D"color:rgb(102,0,204)" href=3D"http://sites=
.google.com/site/highnorthinc" target=3D"_blank">http://sites.google.com/si=
te/highnorthinc</a><br>mailto: <a href=3D"mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank">blueroofmusic@gmail.com</a><br>PO Box 221=C2=A0 Grand Mara=
is, MI 49839=C2=A0 906-494-2434<br><br><div style=3D"display:inline"></div>=
<div style=3D"display:inline"></div><div style=3D"display:inline"></div><di=
v></div><div></div><div></div><div></div></div></div></div></div></div></di=
v></div></div></div><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=
=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Aug 9, 2019 at 10:02 PM Laurence Lund=
blade &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com">lgl@island-resort.com</a=
>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px=
 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><di=
v style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><br><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><=
div>On Aug 9, 2019, at 3:44 PM, Smith, Ned &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@=
intel.com" target=3D"_blank">ned.smith@intel.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><div><=
div class=3D"gmail-m_8885521518204237060WordSection1" style=3D"font-family:=
Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-we=
ight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-tra=
nsform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><div>=
<div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"mar=
gin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">M=
y original point is that RATS should not put any requirements on implementa=
tion.<u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11=
pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">[nms] I infer you mean RATS should not p=
ut any<span class=3D"gmail-m_8885521518204237060Apple-converted-space">=C2=
=A0</span><span style=3D"background-color:yellow">trust</span><span class=
=3D"gmail-m_8885521518204237060Apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>requirem=
ents on implementation?<span class=3D"gmail-m_8885521518204237060Apple-conv=
erted-space">=C2=A0</span></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><=
br></div><div>The mainline RATS documents should have no security requireme=
nts or strength-of-function requirements on the implementation roughly mean=
ing:</div><div><ul class=3D"gmail-m_8885521518204237060MailOutline"><li>No =
requirement for how well it protects the signing key from SW attacks, HW at=
tacks, side channels and such</li><li>No requirement that the owner of the =
device can=E2=80=99t replace the SW or change the keys (no secure / trusted=
 boot)</li><li>Other similar...</li></ul></div><div><br></div><div>Protocol=
 requirements are obviously necessary. Security recommendations are fine (b=
ut not MUSTs or SHOULDs).</div><div><br></div><div>=E2=80=A6skipping the co=
mplex discussion on trust and roles for now.</div><br><blockquote type=3D"c=
ite"><div class=3D"gmail-m_8885521518204237060WordSection1" style=3D"font-f=
amily:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;f=
ont-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;te=
xt-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"=
><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family=
:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.000=
1pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br></div></div><div><di=
v><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,=
sans-serif">Maybe different terminology besides root of trust will be helpf=
ul?</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I think i=
t is necessary. It should be defined in the architecture document.</div><di=
v><br></div><div>The roles in the architecture document are not clear to me=
 yet. =E2=80=9CAttester=E2=80=9D seemed the closest.</div><div><br></div><b=
r><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div class=3D"gmail-m_8885521518204237060WordSe=
ction1" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;fon=
t-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:s=
tart;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0p=
x;text-decoration:none"><div><div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001p=
t;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></div><div s=
tyle=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-ser=
if"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-si=
ze:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">...The intent of the architecture d=
raft is that the Attester role doesn=E2=80=99t imply any particular strengt=
h-of-function to be considered an Attester. It also isn=E2=80=99t trying to=
 imply that there is no such thing as strength-of-function (or whatever wor=
ds we use to capture the idea of level of implementation hardening and/or r=
esistance to attack).</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></=
div><div>Agree with this.</div><div><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><di=
v class=3D"gmail-m_8885521518204237060WordSection1" style=3D"font-family:He=
lvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weig=
ht:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-trans=
form:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><div><d=
iv><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></div></div></div><blockquote style=3D"marg=
in-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt" type=3D"cite"><div><div><div style=3D"margin:=
0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><br>L=
ooking at this topic from the perspective of what can be attested, it sugge=
sts that the claims attested should be properties where misbehavior can be =
detected. For example, a hash of firmware A will not describe firmware B as=
 long as the hashing was performed correctly. It may not be possible to det=
ect if the hash of A was performed correctly (since an attacker could have =
input B and said the output was A) therefore that belongs in the RoT.<u></u=
><u></u></div></div></div></blockquote><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.=
0001pt 0.5in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u=
></u></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in;font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">The real basis for attestation trust =
is actually out-of-band trust establishment between the relying party and m=
anufacturer or such as I=E2=80=99ve tried to illustrate in my recent hypoth=
etical example.=C2=A0 It seems to me that the real trust in TLS is establis=
hed out of band through the download of a web browser containing roots by t=
he end user. This is similar.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></div></div><div style=3D"=
margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif=
"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size=
:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">[nms] Using the roles terminology arc=
hitecture draft you appear to be saying the following:<u></u><u></u></div><=
div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,san=
s-serif">=E2=80=9CThe basis for believing evidence from the Attester (by th=
e Verifier or Relying Party) is actually tied to an out-of-band flow of Ass=
ertions from one or more Asserters.=E2=80=9D</div></div></div></blockquote>=
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><div class=3D"gmail-m_8885521518204237060WordSect=
ion1" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-=
variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:sta=
rt;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;=
text-decoration:none"><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:=
11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif">This makes sense and resonates with wh=
at is depicted in the architecture diagrams and in the architecture draft.=
=C2=A0 Definition of flows to and from the Asserter (claimant) are currentl=
y out of scope for the WG but will be described in the architecture draft. =
Your point seems to be that Verifier / Relying Party depends on this out-of=
-band flow in order to arrive at any sort of meaningful conclusion about tr=
ustworthiness of evidence. </div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><d=
iv>Yes.</div><div><br></div><div>It seemed like to some that requiring a ro=
ot of trust solves this problem of trust. I was bringing up the out-of-band=
 flow to show how trust is really established.</div><br><blockquote type=3D=
"cite"><div class=3D"gmail-m_8885521518204237060WordSection1" style=3D"font=
-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal=
;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;=
text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:non=
e"><div><div style=3D"margin:0in 0in 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Ca=
libri,sans-serif">To which I fully agree.</div></div></div></blockquote><di=
v><br></div><div><br></div><div>LL</div></div></div>_______________________=
________________________<br>
RATS mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">RATS@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

--0000000000004c52a1058fc262fd--


From nobody Sat Aug 10 11:21:07 2019
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Subject: [Rats] Multiple attesters and verifiers
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I think there are elaborate deployments that involve multiple attesters =
and verifiers. Ned has been bringing these up. The architecture needs to =
cover these. That said, I prefer us to get straight on the simpler case =
with one of each.=20

To go on a bit further.

You could have:
   Attester =E2=80=94(IPC)=E2=80=94 > Attester =E2=80=94(TCP/IP) =E2=80=94=
 > Verifier =E2=80=94(in same process) =E2=80=94 > Attester =E2=80=94(TCP/=
IP) =E2=80=94 > Verifier =E2=80=94(HTTPS/TCP/IP)=E2=80=94 > RP

The first two attesters are on the entity / device that is the subject =
of the attestation. This would probably look like nested EAT tokens.=20

The first verifier is a service that might broker attestation from =
multiple entity / device vendors. It outputs an EAT token that has made =
some implied claims explicit and perhaps checked some claims against =
known-good-values.

The second verifier is the one that really relates to the relying party.

Sometimes the connections are internal to a computing device, in which =
case the trust and security are provided by the local OS.

Sometimes the connections are over IP in which case the claims are =
likely secured by being in a EAT.

In the last link in the example, the result is secured by HTTPS and is =
probably internal to the RP.

LL





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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Rats] Multiple attesters and verifiers
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From nobody Mon Aug 12 15:34:51 2019
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From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
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Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2019 11:46:07 -0700
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To: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Multiple attesters and verifiers
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> On Aug 12, 2019, at 10:01 AM, Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com> wrote:
>=20
> See inline [nms]
>=20
> =EF=BB=BFOn 8/10/19, 11:21 AM, "RATS on behalf of Laurence Lundblade" =
<rats-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of lgl@island-resort.com> wrote:
>=20
>    I think there are elaborate deployments that involve multiple =
attesters and verifiers. Ned has been bringing these up. The =
architecture needs to cover these. That said, I prefer us to get =
straight on the simpler case with one of each.=20
>=20
>    To go on a bit further.
>=20
>    You could have:
> [nms] Is this example intended to follow one of the RATS use cases or =
perhaps one of the TEEP interaction scenarios?

Neither. Just something I imagined. I think concrete example are really =
helpful.

>=20
>       Attester =E2=80=94(IPC)=E2=80=94 > Attester =E2=80=94(TCP/IP) =
=E2=80=94 > Verifier =E2=80=94(in same process) =E2=80=94 > Attester =
=E2=80=94(TCP/IP) =E2=80=94 > Verifier =E2=80=94(HTTPS/TCP/IP)=E2=80=94 =
> RP
>=20
> [nms-block] To break this down even further:

Everything you say below generally makes sense to me.


> Attester1 presumably signs Evidence1 with Key1 and includes a Nonce1 =
from Verifier1
>=20
> Attester2 presumably signs Evidence2 (which presumably contains =
Evidence1) with Key2 and includes a Nonce2(?) from Verifier1 - or it =
could have used Nonce1.=20
>=20
> Note: there is an interesting question related to Evidence freshness. =
(i) reply attack prevention and (ii) time since the state described by =
the Evidence was extant. This relates to Ira McDonalds comment in a =
different thread - "It's only the *current* state of the Attester's =
device or application that's actually useful." Regarding (i) given =
multiple attesters on the same device MUST / SHOULD Evidence be signed =
in response to a request or can Evidence be pre-signed in anticipation =
of receiving one or more requests? The TUDA draft possibly addresses =
this differently than using a requester supplied nonce. (ii) Evidence =
freshness also relates to how recently the trustworthiness state was =
tested / measured. For example, 5 requests using Nonce1 - Nonce5 could =
all be returning the same historical Evidence.=20
>=20
> Verifier1 and Attester3 (are in the same process - or what the =
architecture draft abstracts as "actor"). Verifier 1 presumably has a =
Policy1 of known-good / whitelist / blacklist values that informs how to =
produce a Result1 that consists of "verified Claims". Attester3 possibly =
includes new Claims that are packaged as Evidence3.  Result1 and =
Evidence3 are sent to Verifier2.=20
>=20
> Verifier2 appears to also be a Relying Party-RP1 since Result1 is =
being sent to it from Attester3.
>=20
> Verifier2 to produce Result2 using Policy2 which is sent to RP2.
> RP2 presumably evaluates Result2 using a risk management policy =
(Policy3).
>=20
> Possibly the use case can be summarized as follows (which is =
isomorphic to Laurence's original expression):
> Notation: ()Kx - signing using Kx
> 0)Verifier 1 sends Nonce1 and Nonce2 to Attester1 and Attester2 =
respectively. Verifier2-RP1 sends Nonce3 to Verifier1-Attester3. RP2 =
sends Nonce4 to Verifier2-RP1.
> 1) Attester1: (Evidence1, Nonce1)K1 =E2=80=94(IPC)=E2=80=94 > =
Attester2
> 2) Attester2: ((Evidence1, Nonce1)K1, Evidence2, Nonce2)K2 =E2=80=94(TCP=
/IP) =E2=80=94 > Verifier1-Attester3 (Note: Verifier1 and Attester3 are =
roles on the same actor)
> 3) Verifier1: Evaluates payload using Policy1 to produce (Result1, =
Nonce3)K3
> 4) Attester3: Creates (Evidence3, Nonce3)K3
> 5) Verifier1-Attester3: (Result1, Evidence3, Nonce3)K3 =E2=80=94(TCP/IP)=
 =E2=80=94 > Verifier2-RP1 (Note: Again two roles belonging to the same =
actor)
> 6) Verifier2: Evaluates payload Evidence3 using Policy2 to produce =
(Result2a, Nonce4)K4
> 7) RP1: Evaluates payload Result1 using Policy2 to produce (Result2b, =
Nonce4)K4 and/or takes some action.
> 8) Verifier2-RP1: (Result2, Nonce4)K4 =E2=80=94(HTTPS/TCP/IP)=E2=80=94 =
> RP2
> 9) RP2: Evaluates Result2 using Policy3 and takes some action.
> [block-NMS]
>=20
>    The first two attesters are on the entity / device that is the =
subject of the attestation. This would probably look like nested EAT =
tokens.=20
> [nms] An important question is which key(s) are used to sign each =
Attester's Evidence and each Verifier's Results. Does EAT token nesting =
support multiple signatures and keys? Can EAT tokens distinguish between =
Evidence and Results?
>=20
>    The first verifier is a service that might broker attestation from =
multiple entity / device vendors. It outputs an EAT token that has made =
some implied claims explicit and perhaps checked some claims against =
known-good-values.
> [nms] There could be a semantic difference between evaluated claims =
vs. attested claims. The architecture draft would argue that RP may ONLY =
process claims from a Verifier. If the payload contains claims from an =
attester there must be a Verifier co-resident with the RP. Additionally, =
claims from a verifier may be entirely different claims from those =
supplied to it by attesters. This is why the architecture distinguishes =
between Evidence and Results. Both could be expressed as sets of claims =
(IMO).
>=20
>    The second verifier is the one that really relates to the relying =
party.
>=20
>    Sometimes the connections are internal to a computing device, in =
which case the trust and security are provided by the local OS.
>=20
>    Sometimes the connections are over IP in which case the claims are =
likely secured by being in a EAT.
> [nms] The architecture draft tries to distinguish these two cases as =
local conveyance. Local conveyance is internal to the Actor environment. =
Local conveyance isn't interesting to "Remote Attestation".=20
>=20
>    In the last link in the example, the result is secured by HTTPS and =
is probably internal to the RP.
> [nms] I'm not sure if you are suggesting the last conveyance instance =
(step 8) is local or remote.=20
>=20
>    LL
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>    _______________________________________________
>    RATS mailing list
>    RATS@ietf.org
>    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>=20
>=20


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Subject: [Rats] Use the term "attester" instead of root of trust
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I propose we use the term =E2=80=9Cattester=E2=80=9D instead of root of =
trust in RATS/EAT. We say something like this about an attester:

While it is not required, for many implementations the attester will =
involve a root of trust. It is also quite reasonable for profile =
specifications for specific use cases to require a root of trust.

This not a big divergence from the current definition of attester in =
draft-birkholz-rats-architecture-01 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-birkholz-rats-architecture-01>.



To go on with some more comments on the current definition of attester

>    Attester:  The producer of attestation evidence that has a root of
>       trust for reporting (RTR)
As above, RTR should be optional

>  and implements a conveyance protocol,
Conveyance protocol should be outside the attester so the token/evidence =
can be put into extensions in existing protocols, HTTP headers =E2=80=A6

> authenticates using an attestation credential,

>  consumes assertions about itself
I=E2=80=99m not sure where people think the attester boundary is. I =
think it is OK for the attester to take in claims from lots of different =
places, even those less-secure than the attestation signing keys as long =
as they are labeled as such. For example, the Qualcomm implementation =
runs in the TEE, but takes in claims from the Android app that requests =
the attestation.

I think we want to accommodate something running in the cloud that =
checks reference values and knows about implicit claims. It might be a =
middle man between chip makers and relying parties so that every relying =
party doesn=E2=80=99t have to know about every chip maker. It may output =
signed EATs. If we call this an attester, the assertions are not about =
itself.

>  and presents it to a consumer of evidence (e.g. a
>       relying party or a verifier). =20

> Every output of an attester can be appraised via reference values.
This should not be required. Location, for example can=E2=80=99t compare =
to a reference value.



> 4.1.1 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-birkholz-rats-architecture-01#section-4=
.1.1>.  Attester Duties
>=20
>    o  Acquisition or collection of assertions about itself
Same comment as above related to =E2=80=9Citself=E2=80=9D.

>=20
>    o  Provide or create proof that an assertion is bound to the =
Attester
>=20
>    o  Create Evidence from assertion bundles via roots-of-trust

Same comment as above related to root of trust.

LL






--Apple-Mail=_2AEFA915-6648-4A25-9F55-D6010C6AF7F0
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">I =
propose we use the term =E2=80=9Cattester=E2=80=9D instead of root of =
trust in RATS/EAT. We say something like this about an attester:<div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; =
border: none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D"">While it is not =
required, for many implementations the attester will involve a root of =
trust. It is also quite reasonable for profile specifications for =
specific use cases to require a root of trust.</div></blockquote><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">This not a big divergence from the current =
definition of attester in&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-birkholz-rats-architecture-01" =
style=3D"font-size: 13.333333015441895px;" =
class=3D"">draft-birkholz-rats-architecture-01</a>.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">To go on with some more =
comments on the current definition of attester</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><pre class=3D"newpage" =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: =
page;"><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-size: =
13.333333015441895px;" class=3D"">   Attester:  The producer of =
attestation evidence that has a root of
      trust for reporting (RTR)</blockquote><font face=3D"Helvetica" =
class=3D"">As above, RTR should be optional</font></pre><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;"><font face=3D"Helvetica" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"white-space: normal;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></span></font><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-size: =
13.333333015441895px;" class=3D""> and implements a conveyance protocol,
</blockquote><font face=3D"Helvetica" class=3D"">Conveyance protocol =
should be outside the attester so the token/evidence can be put into =
extensions in existing protocols, HTTP headers =E2=80=A6</font></pre><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;"><font face=3D"Helvetica" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></font><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-size: =
13.333333015441895px;" class=3D"">authenticates using an attestation =
credential,</blockquote><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
style=3D"font-size: 13.333333015441895px;" class=3D""> consumes =
assertions about itself</blockquote><pre class=3D"newpage" =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><span =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; white-space: normal;" class=3D"">I=E2=80=99=
m not sure where people think the attester boundary is. I think it is OK =
for the attester to take in claims from lots of different places, even =
those less-secure than the attestation signing keys as long as they are =
labeled as such. For example, the Qualcomm implementation runs in the =
TEE, but takes in claims from the Android app that requests the =
attestation.</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; white-space: =
normal;" class=3D""><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; white-space: =
normal;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; white-space: =
normal;" class=3D"">I think we want to accommodate something running in =
the cloud that checks reference values and knows about implicit claims. =
It might be a middle man between chip makers and relying parties so that =
every relying party doesn=E2=80=99t have to know about every chip maker. =
It may output signed EATs. If we call this an attester, the assertions =
are not about itself.</span><br style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
white-space: normal;" class=3D""></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font =
face=3D"Helvetica" class=3D""><br class=3D""></font></pre><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-size: 13.333333015441895px;" class=3D""> and =
presents it to a consumer of evidence (e.g. a
      relying party or a verifier).  </blockquote><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-size: =
13.333333015441895px;" class=3D"">Every output of an attester can be =
appraised via reference values.</blockquote><font face=3D"Helvetica" =
class=3D"">This should not be required. Location, for example can=E2=80=99=
t compare to a reference value.</font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font =
face=3D"Helvetica" class=3D""><br class=3D""></font></pre><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;"><font face=3D"Helvetica" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font face=3D"Helvetica" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;"><span class=3D"h4" style=3D"font-size: 1em; =
line-height: 0pt; display: inline; font-weight: bold;"><h4 =
style=3D"line-height: 0pt; display: inline; font-size: 1em;" =
class=3D""></h4></span><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-size: =
13.333333015441895px;" class=3D""><span class=3D"h4" style=3D"line-height:=
 0pt; display: inline; font-size: 1em; font-weight: bold;"><h4 =
style=3D"line-height: 0pt; display: inline; font-size: 1em;" class=3D""><a=
 class=3D"selflink" name=3D"section-4.1.1" =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-birkholz-rats-architecture-01#se=
ction-4.1.1" style=3D"color: black; text-decoration: none;">4.1.1</a>.  =
Attester Duties</h4></span>

   o  Acquisition or collection of assertions about itself
</blockquote><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font face=3D"Helvetica" =
class=3D"">Same comment as above related to =
=E2=80=9Citself=E2=80=9D.</font></pre><div style=3D"font-size: =
13.333333015441895px;" class=3D""><font face=3D"Helvetica" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></font></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-size: =
13.333333015441895px;" class=3D"">
   o  Provide or create proof that an assertion is bound to the Attester

   o  Create Evidence from assertion bundles via =
roots-of-trust</blockquote></pre><div class=3D""><pre class=3D"newpage" =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font =
face=3D"Helvetica" class=3D"">Same comment as above related to root of =
trust.</font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font face=3D"Helvetica" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font =
face=3D"Helvetica" class=3D"">LL</font></pre></div><div class=3D""><font =
face=3D"Helvetica" class=3D""><br class=3D""></font></div></pre><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_2AEFA915-6648-4A25-9F55-D6010C6AF7F0--


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To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] Use the term "attester" instead of root of trust
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Use the term "attester" instead of root of trust
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--

Dr. Ian Oliver

Cybersecurity Research

Distinguished Member of Technical Staff

Nokia Bell Labs

+358 50 483 6237

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<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;margin-top:0; margin-bottom=
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Use the term "attester" instead of root of trust
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I'm just trying to put this into some more familiar architectural terms tha=
t we have implemented. So for example, we have an attestation server (AS) t=
hat can connect to a daemon running on, say, some servers/IoT devices/eleme=
nts with TPMs.

Do I understand that the elements above are claimants and that the AS takes=
 the roles of attester, verifier and authentication checker, while the daem=
on interpreting and responding to requests from the AS is the relaying part=
y?

The data returned from the element (the claimant via the daemon) is, ostens=
ibly an EAT, though in our case is a body of data that contains the TPMS_AT=
TEST structure + meta-data.

Further, do I understand that the attester may have itself a root-of-trust,=
 thus becoming in the case where it does, a claimant in its own right?

t.

Ian


--

Dr. Ian Oliver

Cybersecurity Research

Distinguished Member of Technical Staff

Nokia Bell Labs

+358 50 483 6237

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<div><span>I'm just trying to put this into some more familiar architectura=
l terms that we have implemented. So for example, we have an attestation se=
rver (AS) that can connect to a daemon running on, say, some servers/IoT de=
vices/elements with TPMs.<br>
</span></div>
<span></span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Do I understand that the elements above are claimants and that the AS =
takes the roles of attester, verifier and authentication checker, while the=
 daemon interpreting and responding to requests from the AS is the relaying=
 party?<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The data returned from the element (the claimant via the daemon) is, o=
stensibly an EAT, though in our case is a body of data that contains the TP=
MS_ATTEST structure &#43; meta-data.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span>Further, do I understand that the attester may have itself a root-of-=
trust, thus becoming in the case where it does, a claimant in its own right=
?</span>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12p=
t; color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12p=
t; color:rgb(0,0,0)">
t.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12p=
t; color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; font-size:12p=
t; color:rgb(0,0,0)">
Ian<br>
</div>
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<br>
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-- <br>
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<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;margin-top:0px; margin-bott=
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Dr. Ian Oliver</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;margin-top:0px; margin-bott=
om:0px; margin-top:0; margin-bottom:0">
Cybersecurity Research<br>
</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;margin-top:0px; margin-bott=
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Distinguished Member of Technical Staff</p>
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om:0px; margin-top:0; margin-bottom:0">
Nokia Bell Labs</p>
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&#43;358 50 483 6237<br>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Use the term "attester" instead of root of trust
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Here=E2=80=99s much of what I think defines an =E2=80=9Cattester":

1) It has some private / secret key material it uses to sign claims. =
Usually this is an ECDSA private key, but it could be a symmetric key =
used with a MAC. The RATS architecture document refers to this as an =
=E2=80=9Cattestation credential=E2=80=9D and to the process of signing =
as "Provide or create proof that an assertion is bound to the =
Attester=E2=80=9D (by my understanding).

2) It outputs evidence. An EAT is evidence. Evidence is claims / =
assertions that are signed so their authenticity can be checked by the =
verifier.=20
The RATS architecture document doesn=E2=80=99t formally define evidence =
(it really needs to), but usually depicts it as what goes from the =
attester to the verifier. Also, everyone I have talked to personally =
seems to use the term evidence in this way.

3) It is an implementation of EAT or some other attestation token =
format. It is not a legal entity like a chip manufacturer or service =
operator.=20

4) There is a notion of a boundary around the attester. The boundary =
might the TEE boundary, a user mode / kernel mode boundary, inside a TPM =
vs outside a TPM chip or simply the bounds of an Android app. The key =
material and signing implementation are inside this boundary. (IMO most =
definitions of root of trust seem to lack this concept).=20

5) For most implementations, the claims originate inside the boundary, =
but that is not required.

I don=E2=80=99t understand the term claimant yet, so I=E2=80=99m going =
avoid it.


> On Aug 18, 2019, at 3:58 AM, Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) =
<ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com> wrote:
>=20
> I'm just trying to put this into some more familiar architectural =
terms that we have implemented. So for example, we have an attestation =
server (AS) that can connect to a daemon running on, say, some =
servers/IoT devices/elements with TPMs.

If I=E2=80=99m understanding right, your =E2=80=9CAS" is actually the =
RATS verifier and/or RATS relying party. Your =E2=80=9Cdaemon" is the =
RATS attester.

It is the server/IoT devices/elements that you are trying to evaluate =
for trustworthiness. The claims and assertions are about these, right? =
They are the ones that have the secret signing keys, right?

There is a signed data structure that goes from the server/IoT =
devices/elements to the AS. That is the evidence.=20

The AS receives the evidence and has public key material to evaluate the =
signature.

(Pardon if I=E2=80=99ve gone on too long, just trying to be clear)

LL


>=20
> Do I understand that the elements above are claimants and that the AS =
takes the roles of attester, verifier and authentication checker, while =
the daemon interpreting and responding to requests from the AS is the =
relaying party?
>=20
> The data returned from the element (the claimant via the daemon) is, =
ostensibly an EAT, though in our case is a body of data that contains =
the TPMS_ATTEST structure + meta-data.
>=20
> Further, do I understand that the attester may have itself a =
root-of-trust, thus becoming in the case where it does, a claimant in =
its own right?
>=20
> t.
>=20
> Ian
>=20
> --=20
> Dr. Ian Oliver
> Cybersecurity Research
> Distinguished Member of Technical Staff
> Nokia Bell Labs
> +358 50 483 6237
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats>

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div>Here=E2=80=99s much of what I think defines an =
=E2=80=9Cattester":</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>1) It has some =
private / secret key material it uses to sign claims. Usually this is an =
ECDSA private key, but it could be a symmetric key used with a MAC. The =
RATS architecture document refers to this as an =E2=80=9Cattestation =
credential=E2=80=9D and to the process of signing as "Provide or create =
proof that an assertion is bound to the Attester=E2=80=9D (by my =
understanding).</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>2) It outputs <i =
class=3D"">evidence</i>. An EAT is evidence. Evidence is claims / =
assertions that are signed so their authenticity can be checked by the =
verifier.&nbsp;</div><div>The RATS architecture document doesn=E2=80=99t =
formally define evidence (it really needs to), but usually depicts it as =
what goes from the attester to the verifier. Also, everyone I have =
talked to personally seems to use the term <i class=3D"">evidence</i><span=
 style=3D"font-style: normal;" class=3D"">&nbsp;in this =
way.</span></div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>3) It is an <span =
style=3D"font-style: normal;" class=3D"">implementation&nbsp;of EAT or =
some other attestation token format. It is not a legal entity like a =
chip manufacturer or service operator.&nbsp;</span></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>4) There is a notion of a boundary around the =
attester. The boundary might the TEE boundary, a user mode / kernel mode =
boundary, inside a TPM vs outside a TPM chip or simply the bounds of an =
Android app. The key material and signing implementation are inside this =
boundary. (IMO most definitions of root of trust seem to lack this =
concept).&nbsp;</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><div>5) For most =
implementations, the claims originate inside the boundary, but that is =
not required.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><div>I =
don=E2=80=99t understand the term <i class=3D"">claimant</i>&nbsp;yet, =
so I=E2=80=99m going avoid it.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Aug 18, 2019, at 3:58 AM, Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com" =
class=3D"">ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"">I'm just trying to put this into some more familiar =
architectural terms that we have implemented. So for example, we have an =
attestation server (AS) that can connect to a daemon running on, say, =
some servers/IoT devices/elements with TPMs.<br =
class=3D""></span></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>If I=E2=80=99m understanding right, your =E2=80=9CAS=
" is actually the RATS verifier and/or RATS relying party. Your =
=E2=80=9Cdaemon" is the RATS attester.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>It is the server/IoT devices/elements that you are =
trying to evaluate for trustworthiness. The claims and assertions are =
about these, right? They are the ones that have the secret signing keys, =
right?</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>There is a signed data =
structure that goes from the server/IoT devices/elements to the AS. That =
is the evidence.&nbsp;</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>The AS =
receives the evidence and has public key material to evaluate the =
signature.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>(Pardon if I=E2=80=99ve =
gone on too long, just trying to be clear)</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>LL</div><div><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" =
class=3D""></span><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D""></span><div =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D"">Do I understand that the elements above are claimants =
and that the AS takes the roles of attester, verifier and authentication =
checker, while the daemon interpreting and responding to requests from =
the AS is the relaying party?<br class=3D""></div><div =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D"">The data returned from the element (the claimant via =
the daemon) is, ostensibly an EAT, though in our case is a body of data =
that contains the TPMS_ATTEST structure + meta-data.<br =
class=3D""></div><div style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><span style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D"">Further, do I understand that the =
attester may have itself a root-of-trust, thus becoming in the case =
where it does, a claimant in its own right?</span><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D""></span><div style=3D"font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, =
sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; font-family: =
Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" =
class=3D"">t.</div><div style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: =
12pt;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div style=3D"font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, =
sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">Ian<br class=3D""></div><div =
style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; font-family: =
Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div id=3D"Signature" style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
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dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: =
0px;" class=3D"">--<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br =
class=3D""></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" =
class=3D"">Dr. Ian Oliver</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D"">Cybersecurity Research<br =
class=3D""></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" =
class=3D"">Distinguished Member of Technical Staff</div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" class=3D"">Nokia Bell =
Labs</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;" =
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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Use the term "attester" instead of root of trust
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Below

> On Aug 19, 2019, at 11:58 AM, Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com> wrote:
>=20
> See inline [nms]
> =20
> On 8/18/19, 11:17 AM, "RATS on behalf of Laurence Lundblade" =
<rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of =
lgl@island-resort.com <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>> wrote:
> =20
> Here=E2=80=99s much of what I think defines an =E2=80=9Cattester":
> =20
> 1) It has some private / secret key material it uses to sign claims. =
Usually this is an ECDSA private key, but it could be a symmetric key =
used with a MAC. The RATS architecture document refers to this as an =
=E2=80=9Cattestation credential=E2=80=9D and to the process of signing =
as "Provide or create proof that an assertion is bound to the =
Attester=E2=80=9D (by my understanding).
> =20
> 2) It outputs evidence. An EAT is evidence. Evidence is claims / =
assertions that are signed so their authenticity can be checked by the =
verifier.=20
> The RATS architecture document doesn=E2=80=99t formally define =
evidence (it really needs to), but usually depicts it as what goes from =
the attester to the verifier. Also, everyone I have talked to personally =
seems to use the term evidence in this way.
> =20
> 3) It is an implementation of EAT or some other attestation token =
format. It is not a legal entity like a chip manufacturer or service =
operator.=20
> =20
> 4) There is a notion of a boundary around the attester. The boundary =
might the TEE boundary, a user mode / kernel mode boundary, inside a TPM =
vs outside a TPM chip or simply the bounds of an Android app. The key =
material and signing implementation are inside this boundary. (IMO most =
definitions of root of trust seem to lack this concept).=20
> =20
> 5) For most implementations, the claims originate inside the boundary, =
but that is not required.
> =20
> I don=E2=80=99t understand the term claimant yet, so I=E2=80=99m going =
avoid it.
> [nms] Claimant is synonymous with =E2=80=98asserter=E2=80=99 in the =
most recently presented architecture slides. I believe fixing the term =
in the arch draft is on the issues list. A simple definition is the =
Asserter (Claimant) is a supply chain entity that conveys reference =
values to a Verifier so that the Verifier can compare =E2=80=98reference=E2=
=80=99 claims with actual claims aka =E2=80=98evidence=E2=80=99


I few emails ago, I described how trust is fundamentally established out =
of band. Some how the verifier/relying party must get the public key to =
verify the signature on the token. This is also how they implicitly know =
some of the main security characteristics of the entity being attested =
to, like how well the private key is protected. Someone has to publish =
this public key and the implicit characteristics associated with it.

That has to be a role in the RATS architecture.=20

It seems like claimant is closest to that role.

I don=E2=80=99t think it is always the case that the role publishing the =
reference values is the same as the role publishing the public key used =
to verify. For example, a TPM or TPM-like subsystem might exist and have =
the signing keys. It is made by one manufacturer. It has some inputs for =
measurements and claims and is tasked with measuring the HLOS. It can =
even be used with many different HLOS=E2=80=99s. The reference values =
don't come from this vendor. Instead they come from the various HLOS =
vendors.

LL



--Apple-Mail=_DD792E46-B734-42DC-80F2-0F5BE6EE4D80
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Below<br class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Aug 19, 2019, at 11:58 AM, =
Smith, Ned &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com" =
class=3D"">ned.smith@intel.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">See =
inline [nms]<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On 8/18/19, 11:17 =
AM, "RATS on behalf of Laurence Lundblade" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>on behalf of<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Here=E2=80=99s much of what I think defines an =
=E2=80=9Cattester":<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">1) It has some private / secret key material it =
uses to sign claims. Usually this is an ECDSA private key, but it could =
be a symmetric key used with a MAC. The RATS architecture document =
refers to this as an =E2=80=9Cattestation credential=E2=80=9D and to the =
process of signing as "Provide or create proof that an assertion is =
bound to the Attester=E2=80=9D (by my understanding).<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">2) It outputs<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><i class=3D"">evidence</i>. =
An EAT is evidence. Evidence is claims / assertions that are signed so =
their authenticity can be checked by the verifier.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">The RATS architecture document doesn=E2=80=99t formally =
define evidence (it really needs to), but usually depicts it as what =
goes from the attester to the verifier. Also, everyone I have talked to =
personally seems to use the term<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><i =
class=3D"">evidence</i>&nbsp;in this way.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">3) It is an implementation&nbsp;of EAT =
or some other attestation token format. It is not a legal entity like a =
chip manufacturer or service operator.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">4) There is a notion of a boundary =
around the attester. The boundary might the TEE boundary, a user mode / =
kernel mode boundary, inside a TPM vs outside a TPM chip or simply the =
bounds of an Android app. The key material and signing implementation =
are inside this boundary. (IMO most definitions of root of trust seem to =
lack this concept).&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">5) For most implementations, the claims =
originate inside the boundary, but that is not required.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I don=E2=80=99t =
understand the term<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><i =
class=3D"">claimant</i>&nbsp;yet, so I=E2=80=99m going avoid it.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">[nms] =
Claimant is synonymous with =E2=80=98asserter=E2=80=99 in the most =
recently presented architecture slides. I believe fixing the term in the =
arch draft is on the issues list. A simple definition is the Asserter =
(Claimant) is a supply chain entity that conveys reference values to a =
Verifier so that the Verifier can compare =E2=80=98reference=E2=80=99 =
claims with actual claims aka =
=E2=80=98evidence=E2=80=99</div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div>=
<br class=3D""></div><div>I few emails ago, I described how trust is =
fundamentally established out of band. Some how the verifier/relying =
party must get the public key to verify the signature on the token. This =
is also how they implicitly know some of the main security =
characteristics of the entity being attested to, like how well the =
private key is protected. Someone has to publish this public key and the =
implicit characteristics associated with it.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>That has to be a role in the RATS =
architecture.&nbsp;</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>It seems like =
claimant is closest to that role.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I =
don=E2=80=99t think it is always the case that the role publishing the =
reference values is the same as the role publishing the public key used =
to verify. For example, a TPM or TPM-like subsystem might exist and have =
the signing keys. It is made by one manufacturer. It has some inputs for =
measurements and claims and is tasked with measuring the HLOS. It can =
even be used with many different HLOS=E2=80=99s. The reference values =
don't come from this vendor. Instead they come from the various HLOS =
vendors.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>LL</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_DD792E46-B734-42DC-80F2-0F5BE6EE4D80--


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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
CC: "Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] Use the term "attester" instead of root of trust
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Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2019 01:05:09 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Use the term "attester" instead of root of trust
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> On Aug 22, 2019, at 6:05 PM, Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com> wrote:
>=20
> See inline [nms]
> =20
> On 8/22/19, 11:24 AM, "Laurence Lundblade" <lgl@island-resort.com =
<mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>> wrote:
> =20
> Below
>=20
>=20
>> On Aug 19, 2019, at 11:58 AM, Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com =
<mailto:ned.smith@intel.com>> wrote:
>> =20
>> See inline [nms].
>> =20
>> I don=E2=80=99t understand the term claimant yet, so I=E2=80=99m =
going avoid it.
>> [nms] Claimant is synonymous with =E2=80=98asserter=E2=80=99 in the =
most recently presented architecture slides. I believe fixing the term =
in the arch draft is on the issues list. A simple definition is the =
Asserter (Claimant) is a supply chain entity that conveys reference =
values to a Verifier so that the Verifier can compare =E2=80=98reference=E2=
=80=99 claims with actual claims aka =E2=80=98evidence=E2=80=99
>=20
> =20
> I few emails ago, I described how trust is fundamentally established =
out of band. Some how the verifier/relying party must get the public key =
to verify the signature on the token. This is also how they implicitly =
know some of the main security characteristics of the entity being =
attested to, like how well the private key is protected. Someone has to =
publish this public key and the implicit characteristics associated with =
it.
> =20
> That has to be a role in the RATS architecture.=20
> [nms] It is clearly a dependency =E2=80=93 if not on a RATS role =
directly then on something else outside of the architecture.

I think it should be in the architecture document because it is crucial. =
 We don=E2=80=99t have to define a protocol or info model or anything =
for it, but we should talk about it and generally frame it up.=20

> =20
> It seems like claimant is closest to that role.
> [nms] Asserter (claimant) and Verifier have the challenge of somehow =
introducing themselves. Given there are existing authentication =
frameworks and protocols that address authentication and trusted 3rd =
parties. Maybe it is OK for the Asserter role to be described as having =
such a dependency?=20

Seems OK to me to describe the service needed at a very high level and =
leave it open as to the mechanism.

As you say, it can be a physical meeting to exchange PGP keys. Or maybe =
there are new businesses that step in to aggregate the way CA=E2=80=99s =
work for TLS. Lots of different solutions are likely in between.

I think the out-of-band trust role is much more important than the =
reference-value-supplying role. You can have real attestation without =
reference values. For example, most claims can be implicit. The entity =
has secure boot and can be assumed to perform correctly. Maybe the only =
claim is location.

If you don=E2=80=99t have the out-of-band trust, the measurements are =
worthless, so the architecture is incomplete if it just has a role that =
provides reference values.


I hope we can get to a clear architecture with all of this laid out. I =
think it will help cut through a lot of confused conversations.

LL



--Apple-Mail=_A79076C9-F12F-462F-8468-9001D94A1511
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Aug 22, 2019, at 6:05 PM, Smith, Ned &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com" class=3D"">ned.smith@intel.com</a>&gt;=
 wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">See =
inline [nms]<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On 8/22/19, 11:24 =
AM, "Laurence Lundblade" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Below<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: =
5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Aug 19, 2019, at 11:58 AM, Smith, =
Ned &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">ned.smith@intel.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">See inline =
[nms]<span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">.</span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin-left: 0.5in;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin-left: 0.5in;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin-left: 0.5in;" class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I don=E2=80=99t understand the =
term<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><i =
class=3D"">claimant</i>&nbsp;yet, so I=E2=80=99m going avoid it.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">[nms] Claimant is synonymous with =E2=80=98asserter=E2=80=99 =
in the most recently presented architecture slides. I believe fixing the =
term in the arch draft is on the issues list. A simple definition is the =
Asserter (Claimant) is a supply chain entity that conveys reference =
values to a Verifier so that the Verifier can compare =E2=80=98reference=E2=
=80=99 claims with actual claims aka =E2=80=98evidence=E2=80=99<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">I few emails ago, I described how trust is =
fundamentally established out of band. Some how the verifier/relying =
party must get the public key to verify the signature on the token. This =
is also how they implicitly know some of the main security =
characteristics of the entity being attested to, like how well the =
private key is protected. Someone has to publish this public key and the =
implicit characteristics associated with it.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">That has to be a role in the RATS =
architecture.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">[nms] It is clearly a dependency =E2=80=93 if not on a RATS =
role directly then on something else outside of the =
architecture.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>I think it should be in the architecture document =
because it is crucial. &nbsp;We don=E2=80=99t have to define a protocol =
or info model or anything for it, but we should talk about it and =
generally frame it up.&nbsp;</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite"=
 class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; =
caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">It seems like claimant is closest to =
that role.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">[nms] Asserter (claimant) and Verifier have the challenge of =
somehow introducing themselves. Given there are existing authentication =
frameworks and protocols that address authentication and trusted 3<sup =
class=3D"">rd</sup><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>parties. Maybe it is OK for =
the Asserter role to be described as having such a dependency?<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></div></div></div></blockquot=
e><br class=3D""></div><div>Seems OK to me to describe the service =
needed at a very high level and leave it open as to the =
mechanism.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>As you say, it can be a =
physical meeting to exchange PGP keys. Or maybe there are new businesses =
that step in to aggregate the way CA=E2=80=99s work for TLS. Lots of =
different solutions are likely in between.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>I think the out-of-band trust role is much more =
important than the reference-value-supplying role. You can have real =
attestation without reference values. For example, most claims can be =
implicit. The entity has secure boot and can be assumed to perform =
correctly. Maybe the only claim is location.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>If you don=E2=80=99t have the out-of-band trust, =
the measurements are worthless, so the architecture is incomplete if it =
just has a role that provides reference values.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I hope we can get to a =
clear architecture with all of this laid out. I think it will help cut =
through a lot of confused conversations.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>LL</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_A79076C9-F12F-462F-8468-9001D94A1511--


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From nobody Fri Aug 23 11:29:10 2019
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From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool <session-request@ietf.org>
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Subject: [Rats] rats - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 106
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A new meeting session request has just been submitted by Kathleen Moriarty, a Chair of the rats working group.


---------------------------------------------------------
Working Group Name: Remote ATtestation ProcedureS
Area Name: Security Area
Session Requester: Kathleen Moriarty

Number of Sessions: 2
Length of Session(s):  2 Hours, 1.5 Hours
Number of Attendees: 40
Conflicts to Avoid: 
 Chair Conflict: SecDispatch, SAAG, mile, acme, tls, SACM, TEEP, SUIT, NetConf

 Key Participant Conflict:  cose anima


People who must be present:
  Ned Smith
  Kathleen Moriarty
  Nancy Cam-Winget
  Roman Danyliw

Resources Requested:

Special Requests:
  
---------------------------------------------------------


From nobody Fri Aug 23 11:38:17 2019
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Subject: [Rats] Comments on architecture diagrams
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Here=E2=80=99s a few comments on the architecture diagrams below.

A) Use the term "reference values" or "known-good-values=E2=80=9D =
instead of =E2=80=9CAttestation Assertions=E2=80=9D. We=E2=80=99ve =
overused the terms =E2=80=9Cattestation=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cassertion=E2=
=80=9D in confusing ways.

B) The out-of-band trust establishment is not shown. In the simplest =
case it is the publication or distribution of a public key. This happens =
along arc I2. Probably there should be an I2a for trust establishment =
and an I2b for reference value publication.

C) The signing key is provisioned on arc I1. This needs to be shown.

D) The characteristics of the Attester will vary widely. Some will be =
super hardened like a secure element. Others will not. There will be =
some implied claims for the Attester. These are associated with the =
signing key because the manufacturer of the Attester will only put a =
particular private signing key into Attester with specific =
characteristics. So also on arc I1 is the manufacture and construction =
of the Attester.=20

E1) Need to get clear on the terminology =E2=80=9CAsserter=E2=80=9D and =
=E2=80=9CClaimant=E2=80=9D. I=E2=80=99m not very enthusiastic about =
either because they seem like more overload of terms we already have =
confusion around. =E2=80=9CSupply Chain Entity=E2=80=9D is better, but I =
like =E2=80=9CManufacturer=E2=80=9D because it seems simpler and more =
direct to me.

E2) Possibly the Attester/Claimant/Manufacturer box has to split in to =
two to show the manufacturer of the attester separate from the supplier =
of the reference values.

F) Don=E2=80=99t use the term =E2=80=9CRoT key=E2=80=9D because it =
implies a RoT is required. EAT uses =E2=80=9Cattestation key material=E2=80=
=9D or AKM. Could just be =E2=80=9Cattestation key=E2=80=9D. I choose =
AKM because of ECDAA where the secrets used for signing are more complex =
than just one key pair.

G) I don=E2=80=99t understand why "only evidence containing verifiable =
AtAS=E2=80=9D is so. For one, the token / evidence might be encrypted =
over I3 as part of a privacy management or monetization strategy so they =
can=E2=80=99t selectively pull the token apart. Next, it would break the =
signing. Next, there=E2=80=99s no reason for it.=20

H) In =E2=80=9CTEE, eSE or similar=E2=80=9D, remove =E2=80=9Cor =
similar=E2=80=9D so there is no strong implication it has to be such. =
Probably remove =E2=80=9CRoT=E2=80=9D too. (Sometimes TEE=E2=80=99s =
implement TPM=E2=80=99s. Sometimes called soft TPM. In this case I argue =
that the whole TEE is the RoT because a compromise in the TEE kernel or =
boot sequence will compromise the soft TPM).

LL




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<html><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Here=E2=80=99s a few comments on the architecture diagrams =
below.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">A) Use =
the term "reference values" or "known-good-values=E2=80=9D instead of =
=E2=80=9CAttestation Assertions=E2=80=9D. We=E2=80=99ve overused the =
terms =E2=80=9Cattestation=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cassertion=E2=80=9D in =
confusing ways.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">B) The out-of-band trust establishment is not shown. In the =
simplest case it is the publication or distribution of a public key. =
This happens along arc I2. Probably there should be an I2a for trust =
establishment and an I2b for reference value publication.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">C) The signing key is =
provisioned on arc I1. This needs to be shown.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">D) The characteristics of the Attester =
will vary widely. Some will be super hardened like a secure element. =
Others will not. There will be some implied claims for the Attester. =
These are associated with the signing key because the manufacturer of =
the Attester will only put a particular private signing key into =
Attester with specific characteristics. So also on arc I1 is the =
manufacture and construction of the Attester.&nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">E1) Need to get clear on =
the terminology =E2=80=9CAsserter=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9CClaimant=E2=80=9D.=
 I=E2=80=99m not very enthusiastic about either because they seem like =
more overload of terms we already have confusion around. =E2=80=9CSupply =
Chain Entity=E2=80=9D is better, but I like =E2=80=9CManufacturer=E2=80=9D=
 because it seems simpler and more direct to me.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">E2) Possibly the =
Attester/Claimant/Manufacturer box has to split in to two to show the =
manufacturer of the attester separate from the supplier of the reference =
values.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">F) =
Don=E2=80=99t use the term =E2=80=9CRoT key=E2=80=9D because it implies =
a RoT is required. EAT uses =E2=80=9Cattestation key material=E2=80=9D =
or AKM. Could just be =E2=80=9Cattestation key=E2=80=9D. I choose AKM =
because of ECDAA where the secrets used for signing are more complex =
than just one key pair.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">G) I don=E2=80=99t understand why "only evidence containing =
verifiable AtAS=E2=80=9D is so. For one, the token / evidence might be =
encrypted over I3 as part of a privacy management or monetization =
strategy so they can=E2=80=99t selectively pull the token apart. Next, =
it would break the signing. Next, there=E2=80=99s no reason for =
it.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">H) =
In =E2=80=9CTEE, eSE or similar=E2=80=9D, remove =E2=80=9Cor similar=E2=80=
=9D so there is no strong implication it has to be such. Probably remove =
=E2=80=9CRoT=E2=80=9D too. (Sometimes TEE=E2=80=99s implement TPM=E2=80=99=
s. Sometimes called soft TPM. In this case I argue that the whole TEE is =
the RoT because a compromise in the TEE kernel or boot sequence will =
compromise the soft TPM).</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><img =
apple-inline=3D"yes" id=3D"BC2E93A3-E218-4448-9DEB-F6FB5716C681" =
src=3D"cid:7982B2FD-C5AF-40C9-8E06-56CA5D288FA3" class=3D""></body></html>=

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From nobody Fri Aug 23 12:03:23 2019
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Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2019 12:03:10 -0700
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Cc: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, "teep@ietf.org" <teep@ietf.org>
To: "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" <ncamwing@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] RATS Virtual meeting (1st hour with TEEP)
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Hi Nancy


I=E2=80=99d like to see consensus on what we are doing about data model =
and information model. I=E2=80=99ve written some proposal and have seen =
no response. I would be happy to present my proposal on that. I did a =
little of that in Montreal, but wasn=E2=80=99t very well prepared.

I=E2=80=99d like to see us get to consensus on end-end trust is =
establishment, use of the term =E2=80=9Cattester=E2=80=9D and the role =
for roots of trust. It sort of seems we have consensus around what =
I=E2=80=99ve most recently proposed for that (use the term =
=E2=80=9Cattester=E2=80=9D widely; an attester may optionally be or =
contain a root of trust), because no one has written any objections, but =
that seems presumptuous.

I think there might be some over focus on TEEP in this agenda.=20

I think getting consensus on data/info model is important because it has =
an effect on claims definition work.

I think getting consensus on the end-end trust model, attester and roots =
of trust is important because it is about the fundamentals of how RATS =
works and getting clear on will reduce general confusion.

I think the FIDO and Android Key Store use cases need to be as important =
and prominent as the TEEP use case. FIDO and Android are clear successes =
and deployed in millions of devices. Similarly network function (router) =
attestation is pretty important.

So I=E2=80=99d prefer:

30 minutes on data / info model

30 minutes on end-end trust, =E2=80=9Cattester" and root of trust

30 minutes on TEEP

LL





> On Aug 23, 2019, at 10:52 AM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) =
<ncamwing@cisco.com> wrote:
>=20
> RATs and TEEP participants,
> We will be holding a Virtual Interim on Sept 10, 2019 7-8:30am PST. =20=

> =20
> The first hour is to hold a joint discussion on the TEEP use cases and =
requirements.
> Please provide other suggested agenda items by responding
> =20
> Information about remote participation:
> JOIN WEBEX MEETING =
https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=3Dmefed41895b6dc942bf92a1b4c121d907=
 =
<https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=3Dmefed41895b6dc942bf92a1b4c121d90=
7>
> Meeting number (access code): 646 390 311  =20
> Meeting password: hPrEtxQc   =20
> JOIN BY PHONE 1-650-479-3208 Call-in toll number (US/Canada)=20
> Tap here to call (mobile phones only, hosts not supported): =
tel:%2B1-650-479-3208,,*01*646390311%23%23*01* =
<tel:%2B1-650-479-3208,,*01*646390311%23%23*01*>
> =20
> Warm regards
>   The RATs and TEEP chairs.
> =20
> =20
> =20
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> RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
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--Apple-Mail=_F42E20FD-20FA-4726-865A-310F79624C8D
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Hi Nancy</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I=E2=80=99d like to see =
consensus on what we are doing about data model and information model. =
I=E2=80=99ve written some proposal and have seen no response. I would be =
happy to present my proposal on that. I did a little of that in =
Montreal, but wasn=E2=80=99t very well prepared.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I=E2=80=99d like to see us get to =
consensus on end-end trust is establishment, use of the term =
=E2=80=9Cattester=E2=80=9D and the role for roots of trust. It sort of =
seems we have consensus around what I=E2=80=99ve most recently proposed =
for that (use the term =E2=80=9Cattester=E2=80=9D widely; an attester =
may optionally be or contain a root of trust), because no one has =
written any objections, but that seems presumptuous.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">I think =
there might be some over focus on TEEP in this =
agenda.&nbsp;</div></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">I think getting consensus on data/info model is important =
because it has an effect on claims definition work.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I think getting =
consensus on the end-end trust model, attester and roots of trust is =
important because it is about the fundamentals of how RATS works and =
getting clear on will reduce general confusion.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I think the FIDO and Android Key Store =
use cases need to be as important and prominent as the TEEP use case. =
FIDO and Android are clear successes and deployed in millions of =
devices. Similarly network function (router) attestation is pretty =
important.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D"">So I=E2=80=99d prefer:</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; =
padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D"">30 minutes on data / info =
model</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">30 =
minutes on end-end trust, =E2=80=9Cattester" and root of trust</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">30 minutes on =
TEEP</div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Aug 23, 2019, at 10:52 AM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com" =
class=3D"">ncamwing@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"" class=3D"">RATs and TEEP participants,</span><span style=3D"" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">We will be holding a Virtual =
Interim on Sept 10, 2019 7-8:30am PST.&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">The first hour is to hold a joint =
discussion on the TEEP use cases and requirements.</span><span style=3D"" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">Please provide other suggested =
agenda items by responding<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">Information about remote =
participation:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">JOIN WEBEX MEETING<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=3Dmefed41895b6dc942bf92a1b4=
c121d907" style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: =
underline;" =
class=3D"">https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=3Dmefed41895b6dc942bf92a=
1b4c121d907</a><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">Meeting number (access code): 646 =
390 311&nbsp;&nbsp;<span class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p=
 class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"" class=3D"">Meeting password: =
hPrEtxQc&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">JOIN BY =
PHONE 1-650-479-3208 Call-in toll number (US/Canada)<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
CC: "Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] Use the term "attester" instead of root of trust
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Use the term "attester" instead of root of trust
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From nobody Sat Aug 24 03:51:29 2019
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From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool <session-request@ietf.org>
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Subject: [Rats] rats - Update to a Meeting Session Request for IETF 106
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An update to a meeting session request has just been submitted by Kathleen Moriarty, a Chair of the rats working group.


---------------------------------------------------------
Working Group Name: Remote ATtestation ProcedureS
Area Name: Security Area
Session Requester: Kathleen Moriarty

Number of Sessions: 2
Length of Session(s):  2 Hours, 1.5 Hours
Number of Attendees: 40
Conflicts to Avoid: 
 Chair Conflict: secdispatch saag mile acme tls sacm teep suit netconf

 Key Participant Conflict: cose anima dprive


People who must be present:
  Ned Smith
  Kathleen Moriarty
  Nancy Cam-Winget
  Roman Danyliw

Resources Requested:

Special Requests:
  
---------------------------------------------------------


From nobody Sat Aug 24 04:51:34 2019
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From: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2019 07:50:53 -0400
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Subject: [Rats] Architecture document review
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Greetings!

Thank you very much to the authors of the RATS architecture document.  It
is clearly evolving and the current discussion on list should help to shape
it further.  Acknowledging that it is a early draft, the flow could be
improved and consistency in writing style could be as well.

General comments:
By referring to this as the RATS architecture, are we including EAT in
that?  I'm just questioning this use of terms early as sometimes the WG
name just goes away and is not the same as resulting protocols specified.
What does RATS architecture mean in this sense?  Is it all things the WG
develops or just RATS work?

A diagram of how the components fit together would go a long way towards
having the document feel more like an architecture document than a
terminology document.  It would also help with removing the text on "RATS
Roles" being a "building block".  That text seems to just be from one
author based on writing style, so I think it can easily be removed.  The
diagram setting forth the relationships between architectural components
would be really helpful for the reader early in the document to see how
each of the defined components fit.  This was likely already planned, but
is worth mentioning.

My comments are focused more on earlier sections and I tried not to overlap
with active discussions.  My intent is to help improve the document and
move it towards something the WG could adopt near term if updated.

Abstract:

First and second sentence:
   Remote ATtestation ProcedureS (RATS) architecture facilitates the
   attestation of device characteristics that, in general, are based on
   specific trustworthiness qualities intrinsic to a device or service.
S/qualities/factors/
I don't think qualities is the right word.  Factors or something else
leaves this a bit more open and to things that we may be able to nail down
(or others defining levels, etc.).

On the general comment, should we look at terminology usage in cases like
this sentence:
   The RATS architecture maps corresponding
   attestation functions and capabilities to specific RATS Roles.
s/RATS Roles/Roles/

I'd recommend cutting the following sentences out of the abstract as they
are a bit confusing since there's not enough of an explanation to
understand what it means.  If it makes sense, these could go to the
introduction and be clarified.

   The RATS architecture maps corresponding
   attestation functions and capabilities to specific RATS Roles.  The
   goal is to enable an appropriate conveyance of evidence about device
   trustworthiness via network protocols.  RATS Roles provide the
   endpoint context for understanding the various interaction semantics
   of the attestation lifecycle.

And

   Example usages
   include, but are not limited to: financial transactions, voting
   machines, critical safety systems, network equipment health, or
   trustworthy end-user device management.

Introduction:

The first sentence reads as if this will be an operational guidance
document.  Maybe add something about the architecture and how things fit
together?

   In general, this document provides normative guidance how to use,
   create or adopt network protocols that facilitate remote attestation
   procedures.

I suggest a re-write of the introduction to better explain the problem
being solved.  This is meant to be an introduction to the problem space and
later the architecture is described to help solve that problem.

Perhaps starting from a diagram would be helpful to establish a cohesive
set of thoughts for the later described architecture that may help
structure the document.  Once the WG agrees to this architecture, then
update the structure and written prose?

The problem in this document is the architecture to support remote
attestation procedures - explain what that means, what problem is being
solved.

Section 1.1 - I think you can remove the word "Unfortunately" and still get
the point across.  This is a crisper write up to help a reader get started
and maybe should come before any other introduction text.

Section 1.2 - This reads as if the architecture document is all about
setting terminology and it is really a terminology document undercover as
an architecture document.  I'd strike all of this text.

Section 2 - Since no other goals are discussed, I suggest removing that
part of the first sentence:

OLD:
   One of the goals of the RATS Architecture is to provide the building
   blocks - the roles defined by the RATS Architecture - to enable the
   composition of service-chains/hierarchies and work-flows that can
   create and appraise evidence about the trustworthiness of devices and
   services.
NEW:
   The RATS Architecture provides the building
   blocks, including the roles that enable the composition of
service-chains/hierarchies and work-flows that can
   create and appraise evidence about the trustworthiness of devices and
   services.

Question: Is the architecture really all about the roles? The emphasis on
roles is important, but I think the wording puts too much on it and then
takes away from the architecture structure and definition intended for this
document.  I think this perception from my read goes away if you remove the
suggested text and make the change to the first sentence in this section or
just have this section start from the sentence:

   The RATS Architecture is based on the use-cases defined in
   [I-D.richardson-rats-usecases].

The bulleted list seems to be a mix of what's in the architecture and
requirements for the architecture.  That should be cleaned up/separated.

The bulleted list that follows removes this focus on roles.

First bullet:
OLD:
o  The building blocks to create remote attestation procedures
      applicable Actors, Roles, Duties, and Interactions,
NEW:
o  The building blocks to create remote attestation procedures including
      applicable Actors, Roles, Duties, and Interactions,

Section 3.1:
The notion that a "role" is a building block is confusing.  I'd recommend
removing this terminology.  Wouldn't the attestation (claims and signature)
be the building blocks?  Everything else is needed to support that in the
architecture to attain a trustworthiness level.

I have more thoughts on definitions, but will be brief for now.

Attester definition - Would like to see evidence defined first and you can
remove "attester" that precedes evidence in the first sentence.

Authentication checker: Please reword, run on sentence that is difficult to
read.  There are too many thoughts within the same sentence.

Section 4.1.5
Suggested change
   If more than one RATS Role resides on the same
   RATS Actor, a network protocol might not be required.
s/Role resides on the/ Role is performed by the/

Section 7 -

This gets difficult to read again.  The last few sections were much
better.  A lot of text in 7 can be deleted as it doesn't aid in
understanding the scope before the "In essence" paragraph.

Somewhere in this section, there should be a discussion of the expected
bounds of a protocol in that an attestation may be legitimate, but there
may be compromised software that was undetected.  The responsibility for
that software sits with the attester, which is a key attribute for
attestation users.  Having the responsibility for the integrity and
security of attested code sit with the originator or the attester is a key
feature.


Thank you again for all of your work on this document to date, it's much
appreciated!
-- 

Best regards,
Kathleen

--00000000000010c7500590db8b21
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Greetings!<div><br></div><div>Thank you very much to the a=
uthors of the RATS architecture document.=C2=A0 It is clearly evolving and =
the current discussion on list should help to shape it further.=C2=A0 Ackno=
wledging that it is a early draft, the flow could be improved and consisten=
cy in writing style could be as well.<br><br>General comments: <br>By refer=
ring to this as the RATS architecture, are we including EAT in that?=C2=A0 =
I&#39;m just questioning this use of terms early as sometimes the WG name j=
ust goes away and is not the same as resulting protocols specified.=C2=A0 W=
hat does RATS architecture mean in this sense?=C2=A0 Is it all things the W=
G develops or just RATS work?<br><br>A diagram of how the components fit to=
gether would go a long way towards having the document feel more like an ar=
chitecture document than a terminology document.=C2=A0 It would also help w=
ith removing the text on &quot;RATS Roles&quot; being a &quot;building bloc=
k&quot;.=C2=A0 That text seems to just be from one author based on writing =
style, so I think it can easily be removed.=C2=A0 The diagram setting forth=
 the relationships between architectural components would be really helpful=
 for the reader early in the document to see how each of the defined compon=
ents fit.=C2=A0 This was likely already planned, but is worth mentioning.<b=
r><br>My comments are focused more on earlier sections and I tried not to o=
verlap with active discussions.=C2=A0 My intent is to help improve the docu=
ment and move it towards something the WG could adopt near term if updated.=
 =C2=A0<br><br>Abstract:<br><br>First and second sentence:<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
Remote ATtestation ProcedureS (RATS) architecture facilitates the<br>=C2=A0=
 =C2=A0attestation of device characteristics that, in general, are based on=
<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0specific trustworthiness qualities intrinsic to a device o=
r service.<br>S/qualities/factors/<br>I don&#39;t think qualities is the ri=
ght word.=C2=A0 Factors or something else leaves this a bit more open and t=
o things that we may be able to nail down (or others defining levels, etc.)=
. =C2=A0<br><br>On the general comment, should we look at terminology usage=
 in cases like this sentence:<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0The RATS architecture maps co=
rresponding<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0attestation functions and capabilities to speci=
fic RATS Roles.<br>s/RATS Roles/Roles/<br><br>I&#39;d recommend cutting the=
 following sentences out of the abstract as they are a bit confusing since =
there&#39;s not enough of an explanation to understand what it means.=C2=A0=
 If it makes sense, these could go to the introduction and be clarified.<br=
><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0The RATS architecture maps corresponding<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0=
attestation functions and capabilities to specific RATS Roles.=C2=A0 The<br=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0goal is to enable an appropriate conveyance of evidence about=
 device<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0trustworthiness via network protocols.=C2=A0 RATS R=
oles provide the<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0endpoint context for understanding the var=
ious interaction semantics<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0of the attestation lifecycle. =
=C2=A0<br><br>And<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0Example usages<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0includ=
e, but are not limited to: financial transactions, voting<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0m=
achines, critical safety systems, network equipment health, or<br>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0trustworthy end-user device management.<br><br>Introduction:<br><br>T=
he first sentence reads as if this will be an operational guidance document=
.=C2=A0 Maybe add something about the architecture and how things fit toget=
her?<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0In general, this document provides normative guida=
nce how to use,<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0create or adopt network protocols that faci=
litate remote attestation<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0procedures. <br><br>I suggest a r=
e-write of the introduction to better explain the problem being solved.=C2=
=A0 This is meant to be an introduction to the problem space and later the =
architecture is described to help solve that problem. =C2=A0<br><br>Perhaps=
 starting from a diagram would be helpful to establish a cohesive set of th=
oughts for the later described architecture that may help structure the doc=
ument.=C2=A0 Once the WG agrees to this architecture, then update the struc=
ture and written prose? =C2=A0<br><br>The problem in this document is the a=
rchitecture to support remote attestation procedures - explain what that me=
ans, what problem is being solved.<br><br>Section 1.1 - I think you can rem=
ove the word &quot;Unfortunately&quot; and still get the point across.=C2=
=A0 This is a crisper write up to help a reader get started and maybe shoul=
d come before any other introduction text.<br><br>Section 1.2 - This reads =
as if the architecture document is all about setting terminology and it is =
really a terminology document undercover as an architecture document.=C2=A0=
 I&#39;d strike all of this text.<br><br>Section 2 - Since no other goals a=
re discussed, I suggest removing that part of the first sentence:<br><br>OL=
D:<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0One of the goals of the RATS Architecture is to provide =
the building<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0blocks - the roles defined by the RATS Archite=
cture - to enable the<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0composition of service-chains/hierarc=
hies and work-flows that can<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0create and appraise evidence a=
bout the trustworthiness of devices and<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0services.<br>NEW: <=
br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0The RATS Architecture provides the building<br>=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0blocks, including the roles that enable the composition of service-chain=
s/hierarchies and work-flows that can<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0create and appraise e=
vidence about the trustworthiness of devices and<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0services.<=
br><br>Question: Is the architecture really all about the roles? The emphas=
is on roles is important, but I think the wording puts too much on it and t=
hen takes away from the architecture structure and definition intended for =
this document.=C2=A0 I think this perception from my read goes away if you =
remove the suggested text and make the change to the first sentence in this=
 section or just have this section start from the sentence:<br><br>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0The RATS Architecture is based on the use-cases defined in<br>=C2=A0 =
=C2=A0[I-D.richardson-rats-usecases].<br><br>The bulleted list seems to be =
a mix of what&#39;s in the architecture and requirements for the architectu=
re.=C2=A0 That should be cleaned up/separated.<br><br>The bulleted list tha=
t follows removes this focus on roles.<br><br>First bullet:<br>OLD:<br>o =
=C2=A0The building blocks to create remote attestation procedures<br>=C2=A0=
 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 applicable Actors, Roles, Duties, and Interactions,<br>NEW:<=
br>o =C2=A0The building blocks to create remote attestation procedures incl=
uding<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 applicable Actors, Roles, Duties, and Interac=
tions,<br><br>Section 3.1:<br>The notion that a &quot;role&quot; is a build=
ing block is confusing.=C2=A0 I&#39;d recommend removing this terminology.=
=C2=A0 Wouldn&#39;t the attestation (claims and signature) be the building =
blocks?=C2=A0 Everything else is needed to support that in the architecture=
 to attain a trustworthiness level.<br><br>I have more thoughts on definiti=
ons, but will be brief for now.<br><br>Attester definition - Would like to =
see evidence defined first and you can remove &quot;attester&quot; that pre=
cedes evidence in the first sentence.<br><br>Authentication checker: Please=
 reword, run on sentence that is difficult to read.=C2=A0 There are too man=
y thoughts within the same sentence.<br><br>Section 4.1.5<br>Suggested chan=
ge<br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0If more than one RATS Role resides on the same<br>=C2=A0=
 =C2=A0RATS Actor, a network protocol might not be required. <br>s/Role res=
ides on the/ Role is performed by the/<br><br>Section 7 -<br><br>This gets =
difficult to read again.=C2=A0 The last few sections were much better.=C2=
=A0 A lot of text in 7 can be deleted as it doesn&#39;t aid in understandin=
g the scope before the &quot;In essence&quot; paragraph.<br><br>Somewhere i=
n this section, there should be a discussion of the expected bounds of a pr=
otocol in that an attestation may be legitimate, but there may be compromis=
ed software that was undetected.=C2=A0 The responsibility for that software=
 sits with the attester, which is a key attribute for attestation users.=C2=
=A0 Having the responsibility for the integrity and security of attested co=
de sit with the originator or the attester is a key feature.<br><br><br><di=
v>Thank you again for all of your work on this document to date, it&#39;s m=
uch appreciated!</div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" dat=
a-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div>Best regards,</di=
v><div>Kathleen</div></div></div></div></div>

--00000000000010c7500590db8b21--


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Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2019 14:14:33 -0400
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On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 1:44 PM Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com> wrote:

> Regarding Kathleen=E2=80=99s question about scope of =E2=80=98RATS archit=
ecture=E2=80=99[1]. My
> view is RATS architecture is inclusive of EAT. The EAT draft contains
> information model elements, information model binding elements  - in the
> form of CWT and JWT tokens, and a little bit that is related to
> architecture, terminology and conveyance protocol. The EAT draft as an
> architecture seems less general than is needed to support the use cases a=
nd
> the other proposed drafts.
>
>
>
> It seems there is good progress being made on the list and through reader
> feedback regarding ways to improve the architecture. I anticipate there
> will be a revision later this week that is an improvement over the curren=
t
> draft.
>

Thank you very much, Ned and the other authors.  Yes, the dialog has been
quite productive and I look forward to seeing the updated document.

Best regards,
Kathleen


> -Ned
>
>
>
> On 8/24/19, 4:51 AM, "RATS on behalf of Kathleen Moriarty" <
> rats-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> Greetings!
>
>
>
> Thank you very much to the authors of the RATS architecture document.  It
> is clearly evolving and the current discussion on list should help to sha=
pe
> it further.  Acknowledging that it is a early draft, the flow could be
> improved and consistency in writing style could be as well.
>
> General comments:
> [1]By referring to this as the RATS architecture, are we including EAT in
> that?  I'm just questioning this use of terms early as sometimes the WG
> name just goes away and is not the same as resulting protocols specified.
> What does RATS architecture mean in this sense?  Is it all things the WG
> develops or just RATS work?
> [snip]
>
>
>


--=20

Best regards,
Kathleen

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 1:44 PM Smith=
, Ned &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com">ned.smith@intel.com</a>&gt=
; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px=
 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_-6654306565378733730WordSection1">
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6654306565378733730p1"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;f=
ont-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">Regarding Kathleen=E2=80=99s que=
stion about scope of =E2=80=98RATS architecture=E2=80=99[1]. My view is RAT=
S architecture is inclusive of EAT. The EAT draft contains information mode=
l elements,
 information model binding elements =C2=A0- in the form of CWT and JWT toke=
ns, and a little bit that is related to architecture, terminology and conve=
yance protocol. The EAT draft as an architecture seems less general than is=
 needed to support the use cases and
 the other proposed drafts. <u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6654306565378733730p1"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;f=
ont-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6654306565378733730p1"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;f=
ont-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">It seems there is good progress =
being made on the list and through reader feedback regarding ways to improv=
e the architecture. I anticipate there will be a revision later
 this week that is an improvement over the current draft.</span></p></div><=
/div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Thank you very much, Ned and the othe=
r authors.=C2=A0 Yes, the dialog has been quite productive and I look forwa=
rd to seeing the updated document.=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Bes=
t regards,<br>Kathleen</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204=
);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div class=3D"gmail-m_-665430656537=
8733730WordSection1"><p class=3D"gmail-m_-6654306565378733730p1"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black"><u></u><u><=
/u></span></p>
<p class=3D"gmail-m_-6654306565378733730p1"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;f=
ont-family:Calibri,sans-serif;color:black">-Ned
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">On 8/24/19, 4:51 AM, &qu=
ot;RATS on behalf of Kathleen Moriarty&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rats-bou=
nces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a> on behalf of
<a href=3D"mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">kathl=
een.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">Greetings! <u></u><u></u=
></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:12pt;margin-=
left:0.5in">
Thank you very much to the authors of the RATS architecture document.=C2=A0=
 It is clearly evolving and the current discussion on list should help to s=
hape it further.=C2=A0 Acknowledging that it is a early draft, the flow cou=
ld be improved and consistency in writing
 style could be as well.<br>
<br>
General comments: <br>
[1]By referring to this as the RATS architecture, are we including EAT in t=
hat?=C2=A0 I&#39;m just questioning this use of terms early as sometimes th=
e WG name just goes away and is not the same as resulting protocols specifi=
ed.=C2=A0 What does RATS architecture mean in
 this sense?=C2=A0 Is it all things the WG develops or just RATS work?<br>
[snip]<br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"=
 class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div>Best regards,</div><di=
v>Kathleen</div></div></div></div>

--000000000000ec77280591092255--


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Cc: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
To: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
References: <CAHbuEH4fkPehGAFYx=yLsPciCuUn26Lr6KS0uFWqKWs+1N5-LQ@mail.gmail.com> <C9778722-7FE7-49C1-81E0-5E720797B5F1@intel.com>
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> On Aug 26, 2019, at 10:44 AM, Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com> wrote:
>=20
> Regarding Kathleen=E2=80=99s question about scope of =E2=80=98RATS =
architecture=E2=80=99[1]. My view is RATS architecture is inclusive of =
EAT. The EAT draft contains information model elements, information =
model binding elements  - in the form of CWT and JWT tokens, and a =
little bit that is related to architecture, terminology and conveyance =
protocol. The EAT draft as an architecture seems less general than is =
needed to support the use cases and the other proposed drafts.

I generally agree with this assessment. It is my thought to take most =
architecture that remains in the EAT draft out of the EAT draft. It =
would be good to wait until architecture draft is more solid and =
complete before doing so.  The architecture and terminology that is in =
the EAT draft is there from when it was not part of RATS and not even =
inheriting from CWT and JWT.

I don=E2=80=99t really think the EAT draft has any conveyance protocol =
in it and that is a good thing. It is should be neutral and usable with =
any conveyance protocols.

LL


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
Aug 26, 2019, at 10:44 AM, Smith, Ned &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com" class=3D"">ned.smith@intel.com</a>&gt;=
 wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><span=
 style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
font-size: 14.666666984558105px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">Regarding =
Kathleen=E2=80=99s question about scope of =E2=80=98RATS =
architecture=E2=80=99[1]. My view is RATS architecture is inclusive of =
EAT. The EAT draft contains information model elements, information =
model binding elements &nbsp;- in the form of CWT and JWT tokens, and a =
little bit that is related to architecture, terminology and conveyance =
protocol. The EAT draft as an architecture seems less general than is =
needed to support the use cases and the other proposed =
drafts.</span></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">I =
generally agree with this assessment. It is my thought to take most =
architecture that remains in the EAT draft out of the EAT draft. It =
would be good to wait until architecture draft is more solid and =
complete before doing so. &nbsp;The architecture and terminology that is =
in the EAT draft is there from when it was not part of RATS and not even =
inheriting from CWT and JWT.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I don=E2=80=99t really think the EAT =
draft has any conveyance protocol in it and that is a good thing. It is =
should be neutral and usable with any conveyance protocols.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">LL</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/bxEzxleXX69--KpDO8L_PBJZXtw>
Subject: [Rats] Comments on YANG Module for Basic Challenge-Response-based Remote Attestation Procedures
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Hello RATS Working group,

I would like to submit the some comments on the RATS working group draft fo=
r
the YANG Module for Basic Challenge-Response-based Remote Attestation Proce=
dures.

I feel that this module should be taken forward for adoption. Please find m=
y comments
Below. They have been split up to correspond with sections of the document:

GENERAL COMMENTS
----------------
The IETF draft titled 'YANG Module for Basic Challenge-Response-based Remot=
e
Attestation Procedures' should be moved forward for adoption. However, one
note is that Attestation is applicable only for TPM-enabled systems. Theref=
ore,
this draft, for instance, does not cover attestation for Apple devices, whi=
ch
do integrity measurements using the Apple T2 security chip. I feel that sin=
ce
the attestation performed here is dependent on a TPM being present on the
device under attestation, it should contain the string 'TPM' in the title.

Additionally, there are multiple references that the module defined by this
draft requires a TPM 2.0. However, the defined module also has provisions f=
or
performing remote attestation using a TPM 1.2. All references to 'TPM 2.0'
need to be changed to 'TPM 1.2 or TPM 2.0'

2. THE YANG MODULE FOR BASIC REMOTE ATTESTATION PROCEDURES
----------------------------------------------------------
The RPC named 'basic-trust-establishment' uses the 'tpm20-signature scheme'=
,
this may not be compatible with an implementation of this module on devices
only having a TPM 1.2. Additionally, the output for this RPC uses the
'tpm20-attestation-key-identifier' which may also have the same problem.
Therefore, two new RPCs such as 'tpm12-trust-establishment' and
'tpm20-trust-establishment' may need to be created to prevent ambiguity dur=
ing
implementation.

For the RPC named 'log-retrieval' the log should allow selecting the Canoni=
cal
Event Log (CEL) format. (I don't know if both TPM 1.2 and TPM 2.0 support C=
EL
format). A new grouping such as 'cannonical-event-log' may also be defined
(or introduced through a separate RFC) which can then be used in the output
container for the 'log-retrieval' RPC.

4. SECURITY CONSIDERATIONS
--------------------------
Security considerations should mention that the nonce exchanged in the RPC =
for
tpm*-challenge-response-attestation is intended for providing freshness, an=
d
to prevent replay attacks.

Security considerations also need to mention that this YANG module is inten=
ded
to be used over NETCONF (RFC 6241), which is a clear-text protocol. If quot=
e
information modelled according to the BRAT YANG module is served over clear=
text
NETCONF, then it is opened up to a Message Modification Attack on the quote
in-transit. Additionally, if NETCONF over SSH is used, quote information ma=
y
be spoofed if the SSH key of the device under attestation is compromised su=
ch
as in the Asokan Attack (RFC 6813).
It must be noted that this module does not solve these problems.

I hope that this draft goes forward to implementation.

Regards,
Puru


From nobody Fri Aug 30 12:36:14 2019
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To: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/DvotDHcChiuHee3lIutHHP5gmUI>
Subject: [Rats] attester vs measurement target (was Re: Use the term "attester" instead of root of trust)
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Changed the subject as I want to reorient the discussion a bit. =
Apologies if this is all obvious to you.=20

When measurements are being performed there is the subsystem that is =
doing the reporting / measuring and the subsystem that is being =
measured.=20

I think the attester is the subsystem that is doing the reporting. It =
generates and formats the claims, has the signing key and does the =
signing.

I am calling the subsystem that is being measured the measurement =
target. I am proposing that the attester measures the measurement target =
in RATS architecture.

For the measurement to be of best value, there must be isolation between =
the attester and the measurement target. For example the attester doing =
the measurement should be a TEE, TPM or such. The measurement target is =
usually the HLOS like Linux or Windows.

The point of measurement is so that attacks against the measurement =
target can be detected. If there is no isolation, the attacker that =
succeeds against the measurement target is likely to be go on to affect =
the attester and then the evidence (e.g. measurement claims in an EAT =
token) can be manipulated.

In some architectures the manufacturer of the attester will be different =
than the manufacturer of the measurement target. For example a TPM is =
made by a TPM chip vendor. A TEE is made by a SoC vendor. These are =
different than the HLOS vendor, the vendor of Windows, Linux or the =
router=E2=80=99s OS.

The verifier role primarily needs two thing to successfully verify =
measurement evidence.=20

1) They need the public key to verify the signature generated by the =
attester and to know that the key is trusted and probably some implied =
claims.

2) They need the reference values for what is being measured. For =
example, the expected values for Linux kernel 5.x on x86 or such.

I think 1) and 2) are likely to come from different manufacturers and =
thereby might be depicted as separate roles in the architecture.

1) requires the out-of-band trust role. A RATS system without 1) is not =
very secure and not something we want to put in our architecture.

2) requires the reference-value supplier role. Some RATS systems will =
have 2) and some will not. You can have a RATS system without 2). =
Android Key Store and FIDO=E2=80=99s use of attestation are examples.

The verifier has to have a trust relationship with both the manufacturer =
of the attester and the manufacture of the HLOS. Or perhaps I should =
call these two the attestion asserter and the reference-value asserter. =
(I prefer manufacturer because =E2=80=9Casserter=E2=80=9D is too close =
to =E2=80=9Cattester=E2=80=9D, is fairly abstract and has some confusion =
around it for me).

LL



> On Aug 23, 2019, at 12:53 PM, Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com> wrote:
>=20
> [snip]
> =20
> I think the out-of-band trust role is much more important than the =
reference-value-supplying role.
> [nms] I may not understand what you mean by these terms =E2=80=9Cout-of-=
band trust role=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Creference-value-supplying role=E2=80=
=9D. Generally, they appear to fit in the =E2=80=9CAsserter role=E2=80=9D =
side of the diagram Henk displayed at 105 session #2.=20
> =20
> You can have real attestation without reference values. For example, =
most claims can be implicit. The entity has secure boot and can be =
assumed to perform correctly. Maybe the only claim is location.
> [nms] I agree the Verifier role needs to somehow know which claims / =
assertions of trustworthiness apply to the Attester and that not all =
claims must be conveyed as Evidence. A definition of implicit =
attestation might suggest all assertions of trustworthiness could be =
conveyed via an out-of-band channel (where out-of-band refers to a =
conveyance that isn=E2=80=99t the one carrying Evidence). Recall, that =
the RATS WG deemed definition of Asserter / Assertions out of scope for =
now. Of course the architecture can talk about them. Hence, it is in =
scope to say that Evidence could be as simple as a Nonce claim and a =
Verifier could conclude that the Nonce + OOB claims =3D effective claim =
set. More concretely, the Evidence claims set (E) + (union) the =
Assertions claims set (A) =3D effectiVe claims set (V).
> I=E2=80=99m not sure if you are also suggesting that implicit could =
mean something other than explicitly described Assertions. For example, =
Asserter and Verifier could meet at a coffee shop and agree that =
whenever a certificate path resolves to the trust anchor for the =
Asserter that claims set (S) also can be inferred. Hence, V =3D (S + A + =
E). The charter limitation implies we can define drafts that define E =
for the Attester and Verifier roles and S and A for the Verifier role =
only and not how Verifier obtains (S, A).=20
> =20
> If you don=E2=80=99t have the [1] out-of-band trust, the measurements =
are worthless, so the architecture is incomplete if it just has a role =
that provides reference values.
>                                 [nms] Right. The architecture should =
assume that role entities have valid credentials (e.g. certificates + =
private key) and that the Verifier can resolve that it trusts the role =
entities=E2=80=99 credentials (somehow). If =E2=80=98out-of-band=E2=80=99 =
[1] means Asserter(s) then their Assertions (measurements) are expected =
to be their =E2=80=9Cprovable assertions=E2=80=9D; where provable means =
signed by the Asserter=E2=80=99s credential key.
> [nms] We might want to qualify =E2=80=9CAssertions=E2=80=9D as =
=E2=80=9CProvable Assertions=E2=80=9D in the architecture to make it =
clear that there is a way for the Verifier to accept them without =
blindly trusting an assertion given to it. This would also qualify it in =
terms of an ISO/IEC terminology that defines Assertion as =E2=80=98a =
statement that is not necessarily provable=E2=80=99.
>                                 [nms] We could have a discussion about =
the veracity of Asserter(s)=E2=80=99 credentials. But I think it ends up =
being a recursion of the RATS architecture. This isn=E2=80=99t an =
interesting rat hole (pun intended), except for being convinced that the =
recursion terminates. For example, with some sort of trust anchor =
provisioning protocol or manual process (see [snip]).
>                                =20
> I hope we can get to a clear architecture with all of this laid out. I =
think it will help cut through a lot of confused conversations.
> [nms] +1
> =20
> LL


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Changed the subject as I want to reorient the discussion a =
bit. Apologies if this is all obvious to you.&nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">When measurements are =
being performed there is the subsystem that is doing the reporting / =
measuring and the subsystem that is being measured.&nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I think the <i =
class=3D"">attester</i>&nbsp;is the subsystem that is doing the =
reporting. It generates and formats the claims, has the signing key and =
does the signing.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">I am calling the subsystem that is being measured the <i =
class=3D"">measurement target. </i><span style=3D"font-style: normal;" =
class=3D"">I am proposing that the attester </span><i =
class=3D"">measures</i>&nbsp;the measurement target in RATS =
architecture.</div><div class=3D""><span style=3D"font-style: normal;" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></span></div><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-style: normal;" class=3D"">For the measurement to be of =
best value, there must be isolation between the attester and the =
measurement target. For example the attester doing the measurement =
should be a TEE, TPM or such. The measurement target is usually the HLOS =
like Linux or Windows.</span></div><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-style: normal;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></span></div><div =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-style: normal;" class=3D"">The point of =
measurement is so that attacks against the measurement target can be =
detected. If there is no isolation, the attacker that succeeds against =
the measurement target is likely to be go on to affect the attester and =
then the evidence (e.g. measurement claims in an EAT token) can be =
manipulated.</span></div><div class=3D""><span style=3D"font-style: =
normal;" class=3D""><br class=3D""></span></div><div class=3D"">In some =
architectures the manufacturer of the attester will be different than =
the manufacturer of the measurement target. For example a TPM is made by =
a TPM chip vendor. A TEE is made by a SoC vendor. These are different =
than the HLOS vendor, the vendor of Windows, Linux or the router=E2=80=99s=
 OS.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The =
verifier role primarily needs two thing to successfully verify =
measurement evidence.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; =
padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D"">1) They need the public key to =
verify the signature generated by the attester and to know that the key =
is trusted and probably some implied claims.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">2) They need the reference values for =
what is being measured. For example, the expected values for Linux =
kernel 5.x on x86 or such.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote>I think 1) and 2) are likely to come from =
different manufacturers and thereby might be depicted as separate roles =
in the architecture.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">1) requires the out-of-band trust role. A RATS system without =
1) is not very secure and not something we want to put in our =
architecture.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">2)=
 requires the reference-value supplier role. Some RATS systems will have =
2) and some will not. You can have a RATS system without 2). Android Key =
Store and FIDO=E2=80=99s use of attestation are examples.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The verifier has to have =
a trust relationship with both the manufacturer of the attester and the =
manufacture of the HLOS. Or perhaps I should call these two the =
attestion asserter and the reference-value asserter. (I prefer =
manufacturer because =E2=80=9Casserter=E2=80=9D is too close to =
=E2=80=9Cattester=E2=80=9D, is fairly abstract and has some confusion =
around it for me).</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Aug 23, 2019, at 12:53 PM, Smith, Ned =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com" =
class=3D"">ned.smith@intel.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">[snip]<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I think the out-of-band trust role is =
much more important than the reference-value-supplying role.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; text-indent: 0.5in;" =
class=3D"">[nms] I may not understand what you mean by these terms =
=E2=80=9Cout-of-band trust role=E2=80=9D and =
=E2=80=9Creference-value-supplying role=E2=80=9D. Generally, they appear =
to fit in the =E2=80=9CAsserter role=E2=80=9D side of the diagram Henk =
displayed at 105 session #2.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; text-indent: 0.5in;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">You can have real attestation without reference values. For =
example, most claims can be implicit. The entity has secure boot and can =
be assumed to perform correctly. Maybe the only claim is location.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; text-indent: 0.5in;" =
class=3D"">[nms] I agree the Verifier role needs to somehow know which =
claims / assertions of trustworthiness apply to the Attester and that =
not all claims must be conveyed as Evidence. A definition of implicit =
attestation might suggest all assertions of trustworthiness could be =
conveyed via an out-of-band channel (where out-of-band refers to a =
conveyance that isn=E2=80=99t the one carrying Evidence). Recall, that =
the RATS WG deemed definition of Asserter / Assertions out of scope for =
now. Of course the architecture can talk about them. Hence, it is in =
scope to say that Evidence could be as simple as a Nonce claim and a =
Verifier could conclude that the Nonce + OOB claims =3D effective claim =
set. More concretely, the Evidence claims set (E) + (union) the =
Assertions claims set (A) =3D effectiVe claims set (V).<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; text-indent: 0.5in;" =
class=3D"">I=E2=80=99m not sure if you are also suggesting that implicit =
could mean something other than explicitly described Assertions. For =
example, Asserter and Verifier could meet at a coffee shop and agree =
that whenever a certificate path resolves to the trust anchor for the =
Asserter that claims set (S) also can be inferred. Hence, V =3D (S + A + =
E). The charter limitation implies we can define drafts that define E =
for the Attester and Verifier roles and S and A for the Verifier role =
only and not how Verifier obtains (S, A).<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">If you don=E2=80=99t have the [1] =
out-of-band trust, the measurements are worthless, so the architecture =
is incomplete if it just has a role that provides reference values.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [nms] Right. The architecture should assume that role =
entities have valid credentials (e.g. certificates + private key) and =
that the Verifier can resolve that it trusts the role entities=E2=80=99 =
credentials (somehow). If =E2=80=98out-of-band=E2=80=99 [1] means =
Asserter(s) then their Assertions (measurements) are expected to be =
their =E2=80=9Cprovable assertions=E2=80=9D; where provable means signed =
by the Asserter=E2=80=99s credential key.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; text-indent: 0.5in;" class=3D"">[nms] We might want =
to qualify =E2=80=9CAssertions=E2=80=9D as =E2=80=9CProvable =
Assertions=E2=80=9D in the architecture to make it clear that there is a =
way for the Verifier to accept them without blindly trusting an =
assertion given to it. This would also qualify it in terms of an ISO/IEC =
terminology that defines Assertion as =E2=80=98a statement that is not =
necessarily provable=E2=80=99.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [nms] We could have a =
discussion about the<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><i =
class=3D"">veracity</i><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>of Asserter(s)=E2=80=99 =
credentials. But I think it ends up being a recursion of the RATS =
architecture. This isn=E2=80=99t an interesting rat hole (pun intended), =
except for being convinced that the recursion terminates. For example, =
with some sort of trust anchor provisioning protocol or manual process =
(see [snip]).<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">I hope we can get to a clear architecture with all of this =
laid out. I think it will help cut through a lot of confused =
conversations.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
text-indent: 0.5in;" class=3D"">[nms] +1<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">LL</div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: Giridhar Mandyam <mandyam@qti.qualcomm.com>
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] attester vs measurement target (was Re: Use the term "attester" instead of root of trust)
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Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 19:57:53 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Rats] attester vs measurement target (was Re: Use the term "attester" instead of root of trust)
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In-Reply-To: <774847aefd954c00970af8fba8659d5a@NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com>
From: Ira McDonald <blueroofmusic@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 17:21:35 -0400
Message-ID: <CAN40gSsUiNGt6DXTSxZDYpRUWG+Fy9Km=SQTJjBzmeLzmEaKuw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Giridhar Mandyam <mandyam@qti.qualcomm.com>, Ira McDonald <blueroofmusic@gmail.com>
Cc: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/eydT69vVr8yFz1AlLjA3Ngksb3U>
Subject: Re: [Rats] attester vs measurement target (was Re: Use the term "attester" instead of root of trust)
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Hi,

+1 to Girii's comments and suggestions.  Reinventing terminology
(the curse of the computer industry) leads to automatic cognitive
disconnects and confusion and benefits no one.

Cheers,
- Ira

Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)
Co-Chair - TCG Trusted Mobility Solutions WG
Co-Chair - TCG Metadata Access Protocol SG
Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG
Secretary - IEEE-ISTO Printer Working Group
Co-Chair - IEEE-ISTO PWG Internet Printing Protocol WG
IETF Designated Expert - IPP & Printer MIB
Blue Roof Music / High North Inc
http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic
http://sites.google.com/site/highnorthinc
mailto: blueroofmusic@gmail.com
PO Box 221  Grand Marais, MI 49839  906-494-2434



On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 3:58 PM Giridhar Mandyam <mandyam@qti.qualcomm.com>
wrote:

> I am not sure why we are trying to re-define terms that have already been
> defined in the literature.  In my review on the -01 version of the
> architecture doc [1], I cited a couple of papers where terminology had be=
en
> addressed [2]-[3].  I wonder if the RATS architecture editors did a
> complete literature review prior to the creation of this document, and if
> so whether they can provide a justification as to why they rejected
> previous approaches to defining attestation terminology and architecture.
>
>
>
> In particular, [2] has the following text:
>
>
>
> =E2=80=9C*Terminology*. *An appraiser is a party, generally a computer on=
 a
> network, making a decision about some other party or parties. A target is=
 a
> party about which an appraiser needs to make such a decision*.=E2=80=9D
>
>
>
> =E2=80=9C*Terminology*. *Attestation** is the activity of making a claim =
to an
> appraiser about the properties of a target by supplying evidence which
> supports that claim. An attester is a party performing this activity. An
> appraiser's decision-making process based on attested information is
> appraisal*.=E2=80=9D
>
>
>
> =E2=80=9C*Terminology*. *To measure a target means to collect evidence ab=
out it
> through direct and local observation of it*.=E2=80=9D
>
>
>
> [1] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/9iIrnD9YixKCuwOGKtvGZIzd_b=
U
> .
>
> [2] Coker, George et al.  "Principles of Remote Attestation."  Internatio=
nal Journal on Information Security.  Vol. 10.  No .2.  2011.  pp. 63-81.  =
Available at http://web.cs.wpi.edu/~guttman/pubs/remote_attest.pdf.
>
> [3] J. Guttman et al.  ""Attestation:  Evidence and Trust".  MITRE Techni=
cal Report MTR080072.  March 2008. https://www.mitre.org/sites/default/file=
s/pdf/07_0186.pdf.
>
>
>
> -Giri Mandyam
>
>
>
> *From:* RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of * Laurence Lundblade
> *Sent:* Friday, August 30, 2019 12:36 PM
> *To:* Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com>
> *Cc:* rats@ietf.org
> *Subject:* [Rats] attester vs measurement target (was Re: Use the term
> "attester" instead of root of trust)
>
>
>
> *CAUTION*: This email originated from outside of the organization.
>
> Changed the subject as I want to reorient the discussion a bit. Apologies
> if this is all obvious to you.
>
>
>
> When measurements are being performed there is the subsystem that is doin=
g
> the reporting / measuring and the subsystem that is being measured.
>
>
>
> I think the *attester* is the subsystem that is doing the reporting. It
> generates and formats the claims, has the signing key and does the signin=
g.
>
>
>
> I am calling the subsystem that is being measured the *measurement
> target. *I am proposing that the attester *measures* the measurement
> target in RATS architecture.
>
>
>
> For the measurement to be of best value, there must be isolation between
> the attester and the measurement target. For example the attester doing t=
he
> measurement should be a TEE, TPM or such. The measurement target is usual=
ly
> the HLOS like Linux or Windows.
>
>
>
> The point of measurement is so that attacks against the measurement targe=
t
> can be detected. If there is no isolation, the attacker that succeeds
> against the measurement target is likely to be go on to affect the attest=
er
> and then the evidence (e.g. measurement claims in an EAT token) can be
> manipulated.
>
>
>
> In some architectures the manufacturer of the attester will be different
> than the manufacturer of the measurement target. For example a TPM is mad=
e
> by a TPM chip vendor. A TEE is made by a SoC vendor. These are different
> than the HLOS vendor, the vendor of Windows, Linux or the router=E2=80=99=
s OS.
>
>
>
> The verifier role primarily needs two thing to successfully verify
> measurement evidence.
>
>
>
> 1) They need the public key to verify the signature generated by the
> attester and to know that the key is trusted and probably some implied
> claims.
>
>
>
> 2) They need the reference values for what is being measured. For example=
,
> the expected values for Linux kernel 5.x on x86 or such.
>
>
>
> I think 1) and 2) are likely to come from different manufacturers and
> thereby might be depicted as separate roles in the architecture.
>
>
>
> 1) requires the out-of-band trust role. A RATS system without 1) is not
> very secure and not something we want to put in our architecture.
>
>
>
> 2) requires the reference-value supplier role. Some RATS systems will hav=
e
> 2) and some will not. You can have a RATS system without 2). Android Key
> Store and FIDO=E2=80=99s use of attestation are examples.
>
>
>
> The verifier has to have a trust relationship with both the manufacturer
> of the attester and the manufacture of the HLOS. Or perhaps I should call
> these two the attestion asserter and the reference-value asserter. (I
> prefer manufacturer because =E2=80=9Casserter=E2=80=9D is too close to =
=E2=80=9Cattester=E2=80=9D, is
> fairly abstract and has some confusion around it for me).
>
>
>
> LL
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Aug 23, 2019, at 12:53 PM, Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> [snip]
>
>
>
> I think the out-of-band trust role is much more important than the
> reference-value-supplying role.
>
> [nms] I may not understand what you mean by these terms =E2=80=9Cout-of-b=
and trust
> role=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Creference-value-supplying role=E2=80=9D. Gener=
ally, they appear to fit
> in the =E2=80=9CAsserter role=E2=80=9D side of the diagram Henk displayed=
 at 105 session #2.
>
>
>
>
> You can have real attestation without reference values. For example, most
> claims can be implicit. The entity has secure boot and can be assumed to
> perform correctly. Maybe the only claim is location.
>
> [nms] I agree the Verifier role needs to somehow know which claims /
> assertions of trustworthiness apply to the Attester and that not all clai=
ms
> must be conveyed as Evidence. A definition of implicit attestation might
> suggest all assertions of trustworthiness could be conveyed via an
> out-of-band channel (where out-of-band refers to a conveyance that isn=E2=
=80=99t
> the one carrying Evidence). Recall, that the RATS WG deemed definition of
> Asserter / Assertions out of scope for now. Of course the architecture ca=
n
> talk about them. Hence, it is in scope to say that Evidence could be as
> simple as a Nonce claim and a Verifier could conclude that the Nonce + OO=
B
> claims =3D effective claim set. More concretely, the Evidence claims set =
(E)
> + (union) the Assertions claims set (A) =3D effectiVe claims set (V).
>
> I=E2=80=99m not sure if you are also suggesting that implicit could mean =
something
> other than explicitly described Assertions. For example, Asserter and
> Verifier could meet at a coffee shop and agree that whenever a certificat=
e
> path resolves to the trust anchor for the Asserter that claims set (S) al=
so
> can be inferred. Hence, V =3D (S + A + E). The charter limitation implies=
 we
> can define drafts that define E for the Attester and Verifier roles and S
> and A for the Verifier role only and not how Verifier obtains (S, A).
>
>
>
> If you don=E2=80=99t have the [1] out-of-band trust, the measurements are
> worthless, so the architecture is incomplete if it just has a role that
> provides reference values.
>
>                                 [nms] Right. The architecture should
> assume that role entities have valid credentials (e.g. certificates +
> private key) and that the Verifier can resolve that it trusts the role
> entities=E2=80=99 credentials (somehow). If =E2=80=98out-of-band=E2=80=99=
 [1] means Asserter(s)
> then their Assertions (measurements) are expected to be their =E2=80=9Cpr=
ovable
> assertions=E2=80=9D; where provable means signed by the Asserter=E2=80=99=
s credential key.
>
> [nms] We might want to qualify =E2=80=9CAssertions=E2=80=9D as =E2=80=9CP=
rovable Assertions=E2=80=9D in
> the architecture to make it clear that there is a way for the Verifier to
> accept them without blindly trusting an assertion given to it. This would
> also qualify it in terms of an ISO/IEC terminology that defines Assertion
> as =E2=80=98a statement that is not necessarily provable=E2=80=99.
>
>                                 [nms] We could have a discussion about th=
e
>  *veracity* of Asserter(s)=E2=80=99 credentials. But I think it ends up b=
eing a
> recursion of the RATS architecture. This isn=E2=80=99t an interesting rat=
 hole (pun
> intended), except for being convinced that the recursion terminates. For
> example, with some sort of trust anchor provisioning protocol or manual
> process (see [snip]).
>
>
>
> I hope we can get to a clear architecture with all of this laid out. I
> think it will help cut through a lot of confused conversations.
>
> [nms] +1
>
>
>
> LL
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi,</div><div><br></div><div>+1 to Girii&#39;s commen=
ts and suggestions.=C2=A0 Reinventing terminology</div><div>(the curse of t=
he computer industry) leads to automatic cognitive</div><div>disconnects an=
d confusion and benefits no one.</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div=
>- Ira</div><div><br></div><div><div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signat=
ure" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">Ira McDonald (Musician / So=
ftware Architect)<br>Co-Chair - TCG Trusted Mobility Solutions WG</div><div=
>Co-Chair - TCG Metadata Access Protocol SG<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">Chair=
 - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG<br>Secretary - IEEE-ISTO Printer Worki=
ng Group<br>Co-Chair - IEEE-ISTO PWG Internet Printing Protocol WG<br>IETF =
Designated Expert - IPP &amp; Printer MIB<br>Blue Roof Music / High North I=
nc<br><a style=3D"color:rgb(51,51,255)" href=3D"http://sites.google.com/sit=
e/blueroofmusic" target=3D"_blank">http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmus=
ic</a><br><a style=3D"color:rgb(102,0,204)" href=3D"http://sites.google.com=
/site/highnorthinc" target=3D"_blank">http://sites.google.com/site/highnort=
hinc</a><br>mailto: <a href=3D"mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">blueroofmusic@gmail.com</a><br>PO Box 221=C2=A0 Grand Marais, MI 4983=
9=C2=A0 906-494-2434<br><br><div style=3D"display:inline"></div><div style=
=3D"display:inline"></div><div style=3D"display:inline"></div><div></div><d=
iv></div><div></div><div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></=
div></div><br></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" c=
lass=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 3:58 PM Giridhar Mandyam &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:mandyam@qti.qualcomm.com">mandyam@qti.qualcomm.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0=
px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_-8360330693709964158WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I am not sure why we are trying to re-define terms t=
hat have already been defined in the literature.=C2=A0 In my review on the =
-01 version of the architecture doc [1], I cited a couple of papers where t=
erminology had been addressed [2]-[3].=C2=A0
 I wonder if the RATS architecture editors did a complete literature review=
 prior to the creation of this document, and if so whether they can provide=
 a justification as to why they rejected previous approaches to defining at=
testation terminology and architecture.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In particular, [2] has the following text:<u></u><u>=
</u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=E2=80=9C<b>Terminology</b>. <i>An <b>appraiser</b> =
is a party, generally a computer on a network, making a decision about some=
 other party or parties. A
<b>target</b> is a party about which an appraiser needs to make such a deci=
sion</i>.=E2=80=9D<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=E2=80=9C<b>Terminology</b>. <b><i>Attestation</i></=
b><i> is the activity of making a claim to an appraiser about the propertie=
s of a target by supplying evidence which supports that claim. An
<b>attester</b> is a party performing this activity. An appraiser&#39;s dec=
ision-making process based on attested information is
<b>appraisal</b></i>.=E2=80=9D<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=E2=80=9C<b>Terminology</b>. <i>To <b>measure</b> a =
target means to collect evidence about it through direct and local observat=
ion of it</i>.=E2=80=9D<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[1] <a href=3D"https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg=
/rats/9iIrnD9YixKCuwOGKtvGZIzd_bU" target=3D"_blank">
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/9iIrnD9YixKCuwOGKtvGZIzd_bU</a>.=
<u></u><u></u></p>
<pre style=3D"background:white none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">[2] Cok=
er, George et al.=C2=A0 &quot;Principles of Remote Attestation.&quot;=C2=A0=
 International Journal on Information Security.=C2=A0 Vol. 10.=C2=A0 No .2.=
=C2=A0 2011.=C2=A0 pp. 63-81.=C2=A0 Available at <a href=3D"http://web.cs.w=
pi.edu/~guttman/pubs/remote_attest.pdf" target=3D"_blank">http://web.cs.wpi=
.edu/~guttman/pubs/remote_attest.pdf</a>. </span><span style=3D"font-size:1=
1pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif"><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"background:white none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><span style=3D"fon=
t-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:black">[3] </span><span style=
=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:rgb(33,=
37,41)">J. Guttman et al.=C2=A0 &quot;&quot;Attestation:=C2=A0 Evidence and=
 Trust&quot;.=C2=A0 MITRE Technical Report MTR080072.=C2=A0 March 2008. <a =
href=3D"https://www.mitre.org/sites/default/files/pdf/07_0186.pdf" target=
=3D"_blank">https://www.mitre.org/sites/default/files/pdf/07_0186.pdf</a>. =
=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(33=
,37,41)">=C2=A0</span><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Calib=
ri&quot;,sans-serif;color:rgb(47,85,151)"><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"background:white none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:rgb(47,85,151)=
"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></pre>
<pre style=3D"background:white none repeat scroll 0% 0%"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;color:rgb(47,85,151)=
">-Giri Mandyam</span><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Consolas;col=
or:rgb(33,37,41)"><u></u><u></u></span></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border-color:rgb(225,225,225) currentcolor currentcolor;borde=
r-style:solid none none;border-width:1pt medium medium;padding:3pt 0in 0in"=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> RATS &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces=
@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; <b>On Behalf Of =
</b>
Laurence Lundblade<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, August 30, 2019 12:36 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Smith, Ned &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com" target=3D"=
_blank">ned.smith@intel.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rats@ietf.org=
</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Rats] attester vs measurement target (was Re: Use the term=
 &quot;attester&quot; instead of root of trust)<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p><strong><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,san=
s-serif;color:black;background:rgb(255,235,156) none repeat scroll 0% 0%">C=
AUTION</span></strong><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Aria=
l&quot;,sans-serif;color:black;background:rgb(255,235,156) none repeat scro=
ll 0% 0%">: This email originated from outside of
 the organization.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Changed the subject as I want to reorient the discus=
sion a bit. Apologies if this is all obvious to you.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">When measurements are being performed there is the s=
ubsystem that is doing the reporting / measuring and the subsystem that is =
being measured.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think the <i>attester</i>=C2=A0is the subsystem th=
at is doing the reporting. It generates and formats the claims, has the sig=
ning key and does the signing.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I am calling the subsystem that is being measured th=
e <i>measurement target.
</i>I am proposing that the attester <i>measures</i>=C2=A0the measurement t=
arget in RATS architecture.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">For the measurement to be of best value, there must =
be isolation between the attester and the measurement target. For example t=
he attester doing the measurement should be a TEE, TPM or such. The measure=
ment target is usually the HLOS like
 Linux or Windows.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The point of measurement is so that attacks against =
the measurement target can be detected. If there is no isolation, the attac=
ker that succeeds against the measurement target is likely to be go on to a=
ffect the attester and then the evidence
 (e.g. measurement claims in an EAT token) can be manipulated.<u></u><u></u=
></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">In some architectures the manufacturer of the attest=
er will be different than the manufacturer of the measurement target. For e=
xample a TPM is made by a TPM chip vendor. A TEE is made by a SoC vendor. T=
hese are different than the HLOS vendor,
 the vendor of Windows, Linux or the router=E2=80=99s OS.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The verifier role primarily needs two thing to succe=
ssfully verify measurement evidence.=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-left:30pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">1) They need the public key to verify the signature =
generated by the attester and to know that the key is trusted and probably =
some implied claims.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">2) They need the reference values for what is being =
measured. For example, the expected values for Linux kernel 5.x on x86 or s=
uch.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think 1) and 2) are likely to come from different =
manufacturers and thereby might be depicted as separate roles in the archit=
ecture.<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">1) requires the out-of-band trust role. A RATS syste=
m without 1) is not very secure and not something we want to put in our arc=
hitecture.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">2) requires the reference-value supplier role. Some =
RATS systems will have 2) and some will not. You can have a RATS system wit=
hout 2). Android Key Store and FIDO=E2=80=99s use of attestation are exampl=
es.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">The verifier has to have a trust relationship with b=
oth the manufacturer of the attester and the manufacture of the HLOS. Or pe=
rhaps I should call these two the attestion asserter and the reference-valu=
e asserter. (I prefer manufacturer
 because =E2=80=9Casserter=E2=80=9D is too close to =E2=80=9Cattester=E2=80=
=9D, is fairly abstract and has some confusion around it for me).<u></u><u>=
</u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">LL<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>
<br>
<u></u><u></u></p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Aug 23, 2019, at 12:53 PM, Smith, Ned &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com" target=3D"_blank">ned.smith@intel.com</a>&g=
t; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[snip]<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I think the out-of-band trust role is much more impo=
rtant than the reference-value-supplying role.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:0.5in">[nms] I may not understa=
nd what you mean by these terms =E2=80=9Cout-of-band trust role=E2=80=9D an=
d =E2=80=9Creference-value-supplying role=E2=80=9D. Generally, they appear =
to fit in the =E2=80=9CAsserter role=E2=80=9D side of the diagram Henk disp=
layed at 105
 session #2.<span class=3D"gmail-m_-8360330693709964158apple-converted-spac=
e">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:0.5in">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">You can have real attestation without reference valu=
es. For example, most claims can be implicit. The entity has secure boot an=
d can be assumed to perform correctly. Maybe the only claim is location.<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:0.5in">[nms] I agree the Verifi=
er role needs to somehow know which claims / assertions of trustworthiness =
apply to the Attester and that not all claims must be conveyed as Evidence.=
 A definition of implicit attestation
 might suggest all assertions of trustworthiness could be conveyed via an o=
ut-of-band channel (where out-of-band refers to a conveyance that isn=E2=80=
=99t the one carrying Evidence). Recall, that the RATS WG deemed definition=
 of Asserter / Assertions out of scope for
 now. Of course the architecture can talk about them. Hence, it is in scope=
 to say that Evidence could be as simple as a Nonce claim and a Verifier co=
uld conclude that the Nonce + OOB claims =3D effective claim set. More conc=
retely, the Evidence claims set (E)
 + (union) the Assertions claims set (A) =3D effectiVe claims set (V).<u></=
u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:0.5in">I=E2=80=99m not sure if =
you are also suggesting that implicit could mean something other than expli=
citly described Assertions. For example, Asserter and Verifier could meet a=
t a coffee shop and agree that whenever a certificate
 path resolves to the trust anchor for the Asserter that claims set (S) als=
o can be inferred. Hence, V =3D (S + A + E). The charter limitation implies=
 we can define drafts that define E for the Attester and Verifier roles and=
 S and A for the Verifier role only
 and not how Verifier obtains (S, A).<span class=3D"gmail-m_-83603306937099=
64158apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">If you don=E2=80=99t have the [1] out-of-band trust,=
 the measurements are worthless, so the architecture is incomplete if it ju=
st has a role that provides reference values.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 [nms] Right. The =
architecture should assume that role entities have valid credentials (e.g. =
certificates + private key) and that the Verifier can resolve that it trust=
s the role entities=E2=80=99 credentials (somehow).
 If =E2=80=98out-of-band=E2=80=99 [1] means Asserter(s) then their Assertio=
ns (measurements) are expected to be their =E2=80=9Cprovable assertions=E2=
=80=9D; where provable means signed by the Asserter=E2=80=99s credential ke=
y.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:0.5in">[nms] We might want to q=
ualify =E2=80=9CAssertions=E2=80=9D as =E2=80=9CProvable Assertions=E2=80=
=9D in the architecture to make it clear that there is a way for the Verifi=
er to accept them without blindly trusting an assertion given to it. This
 would also qualify it in terms of an ISO/IEC terminology that defines Asse=
rtion as =E2=80=98a statement that is not necessarily provable=E2=80=99.<u>=
</u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 [nms] We could=
 have a discussion about the<span class=3D"gmail-m_-8360330693709964158appl=
e-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><i>veracity</i><span class=3D"gmail-m_-8360=
330693709964158apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span>of Asserter(s)=E2=80=99 =
credentials. But I think it ends up being a
 recursion of the RATS architecture. This isn=E2=80=99t an interesting rat =
hole (pun intended), except for being convinced that the recursion terminat=
es. For example, with some sort of trust anchor provisioning protocol or ma=
nual process (see [snip]).<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0<span class=3D"=
gmail-m_-8360330693709964158apple-converted-space">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I hope we can get to a clear architecture with all o=
f this laid out. I think it will help cut through a lot of confused convers=
ations.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"text-indent:0.5in">[nms] +1<u></u><u></u></=
p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">LL<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>

_______________________________________________<br>
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<a href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">RATS@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
To: Ira McDonald <blueroofmusic@gmail.com>, Giridhar Mandyam <mandyam@qti.qualcomm.com>
CC: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] attester vs measurement target (was Re: Use the term "attester" instead of root of trust)
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Subject: Re: [Rats] attester vs measurement target (was Re: Use the term "attester" instead of root of trust)
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I recommend reading Practical Principles for Computer Security, Butler Lamp=
son, Microsoft Research, January, 2007 +AFs-4+AF0-
This is very relevant to attestation and introduces useful terminology, muc=
h of which aligns with the goals of attestation architecture.
It predates some of the references given below.
At some point consistency is a hobgoblin. The most important objective of t=
erminology for RATS WG (IMHO) is to be able to not talk past one another. A=
fter that, we can agree on whatever industry term is most appropriate.

Specific responses to Laurence+IBk-s remarks are inline below prefaced with=
 +AFs-nms+AF0-.
-Ned
+AFs-4+AF0- https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/publication/practical-=
principles-for-computer-security/
On 8/30/19, 14:21 PM, +ACI-Ira McDonald+ACI- +ADw-blueroofmusic+AEA-gmail.c=
om+ADw-mailto:blueroofmusic+AEA-gmail.com+AD4APg- wrote:

Hi,

+-1 to Girii's comments and suggestions.  Reinventing terminology
(the curse of the computer industry) leads to automatic cognitive
disconnects and confusion and benefits no one.

Cheers,
- Ira

Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)
Co-Chair - TCG Trusted Mobility Solutions WG
Co-Chair - TCG Metadata Access Protocol SG
Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG
Secretary - IEEE-ISTO Printer Working Group
Co-Chair - IEEE-ISTO PWG Internet Printing Protocol WG
IETF Designated Expert - IPP +ACY- Printer MIB
Blue Roof Music / High North Inc
http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic
http://sites.google.com/site/highnorthinc
mailto: blueroofmusic+AEA-gmail.com+ADw-mailto:blueroofmusic+AEA-gmail.com+=
AD4-
PO Box 221  Grand Marais, MI 49839  906-494-2434


On Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 3:58 PM Giridhar Mandyam +ADw-mandyam+AEA-qti.qualc=
omm.com+ADw-mailto:mandyam+AEA-qti.qualcomm.com+AD4APg- wrote:
I am not sure why we are trying to re-define terms that have already been d=
efined in the literature.  In my review on the -01 version of the architect=
ure doc +AFs-1+AF0-, I cited a couple of papers where terminology had been =
addressed +AFs-2+AF0--+AFs-3+AF0-.  I wonder if the RATS architecture edito=
rs did a complete literature review prior to the creation of this document,=
 and if so whether they can provide a justification as to why they rejected=
 previous approaches to defining attestation terminology and architecture.
In particular, +AFs-2+AF0- has the following text:
+IBw-Terminology. An appraiser is a party, generally a computer on a networ=
k, making a decision about some other party or parties. A target is a party=
 about which an appraiser needs to make such a decision.+IB0-
+IBw-Terminology. Attestation is the activity of making a claim to an appra=
iser about the properties of a target by supplying evidence which supports =
that claim. An attester is a party performing this activity. An appraiser's=
 decision-making process based on attested information is appraisal.+IB0-
+IBw-Terminology. To measure a target means to collect evidence about it th=
rough direct and local observation of it.+IB0-
+AFs-1+AF0- https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/9iIrnD9YixKCuwOGKtvG=
ZIzd+AF8-bU.

+AFs-2+AF0- Coker, George et al.  +ACI-Principles of Remote Attestation.+AC=
I-  International Journal on Information Security.  Vol. 10.  No .2.  2011.=
  pp. 63-81.  Available at http://web.cs.wpi.edu/+AH4-guttman/pubs/remote+A=
F8-attest.pdf.

+AFs-3+AF0- J. Guttman et al.  +ACIAIg-Attestation:  Evidence and Trust+ACI=
-.  MITRE Technical Report MTR080072.  March 2008. https://www.mitre.org/si=
tes/default/files/pdf/07+AF8-0186.pdf.



-Giri Mandyam
From: RATS +ADw-rats-bounces+AEA-ietf.org+ADw-mailto:rats-bounces+AEA-ietf.=
org+AD4APg- On Behalf Of Laurence Lundblade
Sent: Friday, August 30, 2019 12:36 PM
To: Smith, Ned +ADw-ned.smith+AEA-intel.com+ADw-mailto:ned.smith+AEA-intel.=
com+AD4APg-
Cc: rats+AEA-ietf.org+ADw-mailto:rats+AEA-ietf.org+AD4-
Subject: +AFs-Rats+AF0- attester vs measurement target (was Re: Use the ter=
m +ACI-attester+ACI- instead of root of trust)

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization.
Changed the subject as I want to reorient the discussion a bit. Apologies i=
f this is all obvious to you.
When measurements are being performed there is the subsystem that is doing =
the reporting / measuring and the subsystem that is being measured. +AFs-nm=
s+AF0- +-1
I think the attester is the subsystem that is doing the reporting. It gener=
ates and formats the claims, has the signing key and does the signing. +AFs=
-nms+AF0- +-1
I am calling the subsystem that is being measured the measurement target. I=
 am proposing that the attester measures the measurement target in RATS arc=
hitecture.
+AFs-nms+AF0- The semantics of +IBg-attester measures the measurement targe=
t+IBk- seems correct to me. Based on the definitions I+IBk-ve seen for +IBw=
-entity+IB0- it seems correct to say a +IBg-measurement target+IBk- is an e=
ntity. It seems correct to say the +IBg-attester is an entity+IBk- too. But=
 they are different entities. Since an entity can be lots of things and we =
need to disambiguate what is relevant to attestation, the architecture intr=
oduced the idea of role names. We chose +IBg-attester+IBk-, +IBg-verifier+I=
Bk-, +IBg-relying party+IBk- and +IBg-asserter+IBk-. There are many possibl=
e alternative synonymous or nearly synonymous choices to be found in an Eng=
lish dictionary and in computer security literature. The role names are jus=
t place holder names for now, IMO. If RATS WG prefers using different strin=
gs then these then some alternatives can be proposed. I+IBk-m OK using thes=
e for now as place holders that allow the group to discuss RATS roles seman=
tics.
Going back to measurement target, I don+IBk-t think +IBg-measurement target=
+IBk- conceptually would be a RATS role since it is being acted upon rather=
 than doing something.
Note: Butler Lampson+IBk-s paper +AFs-4+AF0- uses +IBg-Principal+IBk- to na=
me entities that can +IBg-say+IBk- something  (e.g. +IBw-X+IB0-) or can +IB=
g-speak-for+IBk- another Principal. Using Lampson+IBk-s terminology, the se=
mantic is +IBw-the Principal named +IBg-Attester+IBk- measures the Object n=
amed +IBg-Measurement target+IBk-.+IB0- Since the goal of the architecture =
is to provide a meta model for attestation behavior, it makes sense to use =
place holder names +IBg-Attester+IBk- and +IBg-Measurement Target+IBk- rath=
er than actual instance names. BTW: Lampson clarifies that Objects are also=
 Principals because of the identity property. This allows anything to say w=
hat it is. I.e. X says X. Ultimately +IBg-measurement target+IBk- is just a=
 placeholder name for an Object that is +IBw-the target of a measurement op=
eration+IB0-. Maybe the RATS WG is happier with a different string than +IB=
w-measurement target+IB0-, but we should have some alternative suggestions =
first (so long as they don+IBk-t change intended semantics).
For the measurement to be of best value, there must be isolation between th=
e attester and the measurement target. For example the attester doing the m=
easurement should be a TEE, TPM or such. The measurement target is usually =
the HLOS like Linux or Windows.
+AFs-nms+AF0- +-1. I think it is obvious that the Attester, though isolated=
 from the Measurement Target (MT) is nevertheless able to observe it.
The point of measurement is so that attacks against the measurement target =
can be detected. If there is no isolation, the attacker that succeeds again=
st the measurement target is likely to be go on to affect the attester and =
then the evidence (e.g. measurement claims in an EAT token) can be manipula=
ted.
+AFs-nms+AF0- +-1
In some architectures the manufacturer of the attester will be different th=
an the manufacturer of the measurement target. For example a TPM is made by=
 a TPM chip vendor. A TEE is made by a SoC vendor. These are different than=
 the HLOS vendor, the vendor of Windows, Linux or the router+IBk-s OS.
+AFs-nms+AF0- +-1
The verifier role primarily needs two thing to successfully verify measurem=
ent evidence.

1)      They need the public key to verify the signature generated by the a=
ttester and to know that the key is trusted and probably some implied claim=
s.
+AFs-nms+AF0- Verifier needs to trust Attester. The trust path can be model=
ed using Lampson. See Figure 4 in +AFs-4+AF0- as it seems pretty close to d=
escribing how this works for your example involving both keys and implied c=
laims.

  1.  They need the reference values for what is being measured. For exampl=
e, the expected values for Linux kernel 5.x on x86 or such.
+AFs-nms+AF0- Verifier also needs to trust that +IBw-Asserters+IB0- who cla=
im that their assertions are +IBg-golden+IBk- or +IBg-known good+IBk- or +I=
Bg-reference+IBk- values. This is another conversation the Verifier has tha=
t needs a trust path as exemplified in +AFs-4+AF0-, figurer 4.
I think 1) and 2) are likely to come from different manufacturers and there=
by might be depicted as separate roles in the architecture.
+AFs-nms+AF0- I disagree that RATS roles need to change because the entitie=
s performing the role differs. It is a case of multiple entities performing=
 the same function (that produces the same class of output).

1)      requires the out-of-band trust role. A RATS system without 1) (abov=
e?) is not very secure and not something we want to put in our architecture=
.
+AFs-nms+AF0- The idea that +IBg-an entity is more secure than X+IBk- is ac=
tually a determination a Relying Party should make. Attestation should supp=
ly it with information that allows the evaluation to take place.

  1.  requires the reference-value supplier role. Some RATS systems will ha=
ve 2) (above?) and some will not. You can have a RATS system without 2). An=
droid Key Store and FIDO+IBk-s use of attestation are examples.
+AFs-nms+AF0- Currently, the RATS architecture is using +IBg-Asserter+IBk-.=
 Though in past revisions it was +IBg-Claimant+IBk-. Neither of these seem =
perfect. Although, it seems the majority of cases where Assertions from Ass=
erters will be supply chain entities, there are cases (e.g. virtualized env=
ironments) where non-supply-chain entities take on the Asserter role. It wo=
uld be great if RATS WG could find single word role names as this makes tal=
king about them easier and reduces the need for acronyms.
The verifier has to have a trust relationship with both the manufacturer of=
 the attester and the manufacture of the HLOS.
+AFs-nms+AF0- I don+IBk-t recall what HLOS means (expands to).
Or perhaps I should call these two the attestion asserter and the reference=
-value asserter. (I prefer manufacturer because +IBw-asserter+IB0- is too c=
lose to +IBw-attester+IB0-, is fairly abstract and has some confusion aroun=
d it for me).
+AFs-nms+AF0- Are you suggesting +IBg-Supplier+IBk-? Some have suggested +I=
Bg-Endorser+IBk-.
LL



On Aug 23, 2019, at 12:53 PM, Smith, Ned +ADw-ned.smith+AEA-intel.com+ADw-m=
ailto:ned.smith+AEA-intel.com+AD4APg- wrote:

+AFs-snip+AF0-

I think the out-of-band trust role is much more important than the referenc=
e-value-supplying role.
+AFs-nms+AF0- I may not understand what you mean by these terms +IBw-out-of=
-band trust role+IB0- and +IBw-reference-value-supplying role+IB0-. General=
ly, they appear to fit in the +IBw-Asserter role+IB0- side of the diagram H=
enk displayed at 105 session +ACM-2.

You can have real attestation without reference values. For example, most c=
laims can be implicit. The entity has secure boot and can be assumed to per=
form correctly. Maybe the only claim is location.
+AFs-nms+AF0- I agree the Verifier role needs to somehow know which claims =
/ assertions of trustworthiness apply to the Attester and that not all clai=
ms must be conveyed as Evidence. A definition of implicit attestation might=
 suggest all assertions of trustworthiness could be conveyed via an out-of-=
band channel (where out-of-band refers to a conveyance that isn+IBk-t the o=
ne carrying Evidence). Recall, that the RATS WG deemed definition of Assert=
er / Assertions out of scope for now. Of course the architecture can talk a=
bout them. Hence, it is in scope to say that Evidence could be as simple as=
 a Nonce claim and a Verifier could conclude that the Nonce +- OOB claims +=
AD0- effective claim set. More concretely, the Evidence claims set (E) +- (=
union) the Assertions claims set (A) +AD0- effectiVe claims set (V).
I+IBk-m not sure if you are also suggesting that implicit could mean someth=
ing other than explicitly described Assertions. For example, Asserter and V=
erifier could meet at a coffee shop and agree that whenever a certificate p=
ath resolves to the trust anchor for the Asserter that claims set (S) also =
can be inferred. Hence, V +AD0- (S +- A +- E). The charter limitation impli=
es we can define drafts that define E for the Attester and Verifier roles a=
nd S and A for the Verifier role only and not how Verifier obtains (S, A).

If you don+IBk-t have the +AFs-1+AF0- out-of-band trust, the measurements a=
re worthless, so the architecture is incomplete if it just has a role that =
provides reference values.
                                +AFs-nms+AF0- Right. The architecture shoul=
d assume that role entities have valid credentials (e.g. certificates +- pr=
ivate key) and that the Verifier can resolve that it trusts the role entiti=
es+IBk- credentials (somehow). If +IBg-out-of-band+IBk- +AFs-1+AF0- means A=
sserter(s) then their Assertions (measurements) are expected to be their +I=
Bw-provable assertions+IB0AOw- where provable means signed by the Asserter+=
IBk-s credential key.
+AFs-nms+AF0- We might want to qualify +IBw-Assertions+IB0- as +IBw-Provabl=
e Assertions+IB0- in the architecture to make it clear that there is a way =
for the Verifier to accept them without blindly trusting an assertion given=
 to it. This would also qualify it in terms of an ISO/IEC terminology that =
defines Assertion as +IBg-a statement that is not necessarily provable+IBk-=
.
                                +AFs-nms+AF0- We could have a discussion ab=
out the veracity of Asserter(s)+IBk- credentials. But I think it ends up be=
ing a recursion of the RATS architecture. This isn+IBk-t an interesting rat=
 hole (pun intended), except for being convinced that the recursion termina=
tes. For example, with some sort of trust anchor provisioning protocol or m=
anual process (see +AFs-snip+AF0-).

I hope we can get to a clear architecture with all of this laid out. I thin=
k it will help cut through a lot of confused conversations.
+AFs-nms+AF0- +-1

LL

+AF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF=
8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXw-
RATS mailing list
RATS+AEA-ietf.org+ADw-mailto:RATS+AEA-ietf.org+AD4-
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ul
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--+AD4APA-/style+AD4-
+ADw-/head+AD4-
+ADw-body lang+AD0AIg-EN-US+ACI- link+AD0AIg-blue+ACI- vlink+AD0AIg-purple+=
ACIAPg-
+ADw-div class+AD0AIg-WordSection1+ACIAPg-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACIAPg-I recommend reading +ADw-u+AD4-Practic=
al Principles for Computer Security+ADw-/u+AD4-, Butler Lampson, Microsoft =
Research, January, 2007 +AFs-4+AF0APA-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACIAPg-This is very relevant to attestation a=
nd introduces useful terminology, much of which aligns with the goals of at=
testation architecture.
+ADw-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACIAPg-It predates some of the references giv=
en below. +ADw-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACIAPg-At some point consistency is a hobgobl=
in. The most important objective of terminology for RATS WG (IMHO) is to be=
 able to not talk past one another. After that, we can agree on whatever in=
dustry term is most appropriate.
+ADw-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACIAPgA8-o:p+AD4AJg-nbsp+ADsAPA-/o:p+AD4APA-/=
p+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACIAPg-Specific responses to Laurence+IBk-s r=
emarks are inline below prefaced with +AFs-nms+AF0-.+ADw-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD=
4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACIAPgA8-span lang+AD0AIg-NO-BOK+ACIAPg--Ned+=
ADw-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/span+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACIAPgA8-span lang+AD0AIg-NO-BOK+ACIAPgBb-4+A=
F0- +ADw-a href+AD0AIg-https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/publication=
/practical-principles-for-computer-security/+ACIAPg-
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/publication/practical-principles-f=
or-computer-security/+ADw-/a+AD4-
+ADw-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/span+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-div+AD4-
+ADw-div+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-margin-left:.5in+ACIAPg-On =
8/30/19, 14:21 PM, +ACY-quot+ADs-Ira McDonald+ACY-quot+ADs- +ACY-lt+ADsAPA-=
a href+AD0AIg-mailto:blueroofmusic+AEA-gmail.com+ACIAPg-blueroofmusic+AEA-g=
mail.com+ADw-/a+AD4AJg-gt+ADs- wrote:+ADw-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-div+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-margin-left:.5in+ACIAPgA8-o=
:p+AD4AJg-nbsp+ADsAPA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-div+AD4-
+ADw-div+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-margin-left:.5in+ACIAPg-Hi,=
+ADw-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-div+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-margin-left:.5in+ACIAPgA8-o=
:p+AD4AJg-nbsp+ADsAPA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-div+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-margin-left:.5in+ACIAPgAmAC=
M-43+ADs-1 to Girii's comments and suggestions.+ACY-nbsp+ADs- Reinventing t=
erminology+ADw-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-div+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-margin-left:.5in+ACIAPg-(th=
e curse of the computer industry) leads to automatic cognitive+ADw-o:p+AD4A=
PA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-div+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-margin-left:.5in+ACIAPg-dis=
connects and confusion and benefits no one.+ADw-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+A=
D4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-div+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-margin-left:.5in+ACIAPgA8-o=
:p+AD4AJg-nbsp+ADsAPA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-div+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-margin-left:.5in+ACIAPg-Che=
ers,+ADw-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-div+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-margin-left:.5in+ACIAPg-- I=
ra+ADw-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-div+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-margin-left:.5in+ACIAPgA8-o=
:p+AD4AJg-nbsp+ADsAPA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-div+AD4-
+ADw-div+AD4-
+ADw-div+AD4-
+ADw-div+AD4-
+ADw-div+AD4-
+ADw-div+AD4-
+ADw-div+AD4-
+ADw-div+AD4-
+ADw-div+AD4-
+ADw-div+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-margin-left:.5in+ACIAPg-Ira=
 McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)+ADw-br+AD4-
Co-Chair - TCG Trusted Mobility Solutions WG+ADw-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+=
AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-div+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-margin-left:.5in+ACIAPg-Co-=
Chair - TCG Metadata Access Protocol SG+ADw-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-div+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:0in+ADs-=
margin-right:0in+ADs-margin-bottom:12.0pt+ADs-margin-left:.5in+ACIAPg-
Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG+ADw-br+AD4-
Secretary - IEEE-ISTO Printer Working Group+ADw-br+AD4-
Co-Chair - IEEE-ISTO PWG Internet Printing Protocol WG+ADw-br+AD4-
IETF Designated Expert - IPP +ACY-amp+ADs- Printer MIB+ADw-br+AD4-
Blue Roof Music / High North Inc+ADw-br+AD4-
+ADw-a href+AD0AIg-http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic+ACI- target+A=
D0AIgBf-blank+ACIAPgA8-span style+AD0AIg-color:+ACM-3333FF+ACIAPg-http://si=
tes.google.com/site/blueroofmusic+ADw-/span+AD4APA-/a+AD4APA-br+AD4-
+ADw-a href+AD0AIg-http://sites.google.com/site/highnorthinc+ACI- target+AD=
0AIgBf-blank+ACIAPgA8-span style+AD0AIg-color:+ACM-6600CC+ACIAPg-http://sit=
es.google.com/site/highnorthinc+ADw-/span+AD4APA-/a+AD4APA-br+AD4-
mailto: +ADw-a href+AD0AIg-mailto:blueroofmusic+AEA-gmail.com+ACI- target+A=
D0AIgBf-blank+ACIAPg-blueroofmusic+AEA-gmail.com+ADw-/a+AD4APA-br+AD4-
PO Box 221+ACY-nbsp+ADs- Grand Marais, MI 49839+ACY-nbsp+ADs- 906-494-2434+=
ADw-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-margin-left:.5in+ACIAPgA8-o=
:p+AD4AJg-nbsp+ADsAPA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-margin-left:.5in+ACIAPgA8-o=
:p+AD4AJg-nbsp+ADsAPA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-div+AD4-
+ADw-div+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-margin-left:.5in+ACIAPg-On =
Fri, Aug 30, 2019 at 3:58 PM Giridhar Mandyam +ACY-lt+ADsAPA-a href+AD0AIg-=
mailto:mandyam+AEA-qti.qualcomm.com+ACIAPg-mandyam+AEA-qti.qualcomm.com+ADw=
-/a+AD4AJg-gt+ADs- wrote:+ADw-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-blockquote style+AD0AIg-border:none+ADs-border-left:solid +ACM-CCCCCC =
1.0pt+ADs-padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt+ADs-margin-left:4.8pt+ADs-margin-right:=
0in+ACIAPg-
+ADw-div+AD4-
+ADw-div+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:auto+ADs=
-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ADs-margin-left:47.55pt+ACIAPg-
I am not sure why we are trying to re-define terms that have already been d=
efined in the literature.+ACY-nbsp+ADs- In my review on the -01 version of =
the architecture doc +AFs-1+AF0-, I cited a couple of papers where terminol=
ogy had been addressed +AFs-2+AF0--+AFs-3+AF0-.+ACY-nbsp+ADs- I wonder if t=
he RATS
 architecture editors did a complete literature review prior to the creatio=
n of this document, and if so whether they can provide a justification as t=
o why they rejected previous approaches to defining attestation terminology=
 and architecture.+ADw-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:auto+ADs=
-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ADs-margin-left:47.55pt+ACIAPg-
In particular, +AFs-2+AF0- has the following text:+ADw-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4A=
PA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:auto+ADs=
-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ADs-margin-left:47.55pt+ACIAPg-
+IBwAPA-b+AD4-Terminology+ADw-/b+AD4-. +ADw-i+AD4-An +ADw-b+AD4-appraiser+A=
Dw-/b+AD4- is a party, generally a computer on a network, making a decision=
 about some other party or parties. A
+ADw-b+AD4-target+ADw-/b+AD4- is a party about which an appraiser needs to =
make such a decision+ADw-/i+AD4-.+IB0APA-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:auto+ADs=
-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ADs-margin-left:47.55pt+ACIAPg-
+IBwAPA-b+AD4-Terminology+ADw-/b+AD4-. +ADw-b+AD4APA-i+AD4-Attestation+ADw-=
/i+AD4APA-/b+AD4APA-i+AD4- is the activity of making a claim to an appraise=
r about the properties of a target by supplying evidence which supports tha=
t claim. An
+ADw-b+AD4-attester+ADw-/b+AD4- is a party performing this activity. An app=
raiser's decision-making process based on attested information is
+ADw-b+AD4-appraisal+ADw-/b+AD4APA-/i+AD4-.+IB0APA-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/=
p+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:auto+ADs=
-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ADs-margin-left:47.55pt+ACIAPg-
+IBwAPA-b+AD4-Terminology+ADw-/b+AD4-. +ADw-i+AD4-To +ADw-b+AD4-measure+ADw=
-/b+AD4- a target means to collect evidence about it through direct and loc=
al observation of it+ADw-/i+AD4-.+IB0APA-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:auto+ADs=
-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ADs-margin-left:.5in+ACIAPg-
+AFs-1+AF0- +ADw-a href+AD0AIg-https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/9=
iIrnD9YixKCuwOGKtvGZIzd+AF8-bU+ACI- target+AD0AIgBf-blank+ACIAPg-
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/9iIrnD9YixKCuwOGKtvGZIzd+AF8-bU+=
ADw-/a+AD4-.+ADw-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-pre style+AD0AIg-margin-left:.5in+ADs-background:white+ADs-background-=
attachment:scroll+ADs-background-position-x:0+ACUAOw-background-position-y:=
0+ACUAIgA+ADw-span style+AD0AIg-font-size:11.0pt+ADs-font-family:+ACY-quot+=
ADs-Calibri+ACY-quot+ADs-,sans-serif+ADs-color:black+ACIAPgBb-2+AF0- Coker,=
 George et al.+ACY-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-quot+ADs-Principles of Remote Attestation=
.+ACY-quot+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADs- International Journal on Information Security.+=
ACY-nbsp+ADs- Vol. 10.+ACY-nbsp+ADs- No .2.+ACY-nbsp+ADs- 2011.+ACY-nbsp+AD=
s- pp. 63-81.+ACY-nbsp+ADs- Available at +ADw-a href+AD0AIg-http://web.cs.w=
pi.edu/+AH4-guttman/pubs/remote+AF8-attest.pdf+ACI- target+AD0AIgBf-blank+A=
CIAPg-http://web.cs.wpi.edu/+AH4-guttman/pubs/remote+AF8-attest.pdf+ADw-/a+=
AD4-. +ADw-/span+AD4APA-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/pre+AD4-
+ADw-pre style+AD0AIg-margin-left:.5in+ADs-background:white+ADs-background-=
attachment:scroll+ADs-background-position-x:0+ACUAOw-background-position-y:=
0+ACUAIgA+ADw-span style+AD0AIg-font-family:+ACY-quot+ADs-Calibri+ACY-quot+=
ADs-,sans-serif+ADs-color:black+ACIAPgBb-3+AF0- +ADw-/span+AD4APA-span styl=
e+AD0AIg-font-size:11.0pt+ADs-font-family:+ACY-quot+ADs-Calibri+ACY-quot+AD=
s-,sans-serif+ADs-color:+ACM-212529+ACIAPg-J. Guttman et al.+ACY-nbsp+ADs- =
+ACY-quot+ADsAJg-quot+ADs-Attestation:+ACY-nbsp+ADs- Evidence and Trust+ACY=
-quot+ADs-.+ACY-nbsp+ADs- MITRE Technical Report MTR080072.+ACY-nbsp+ADs- M=
arch 2008. +ADw-a href+AD0AIg-https://www.mitre.org/sites/default/files/pdf=
/07+AF8-0186.pdf+ACI- target+AD0AIgBf-blank+ACIAPg-https://www.mitre.org/si=
tes/default/files/pdf/07+AF8-0186.pdf+ADw-/a+AD4-. +ACY-nbsp+ADsAPA-/span+A=
D4APA-span style+AD0AIg-font-size:9.0pt+ADs-font-family:Consolas+ADs-color:=
+ACM-212529+ACIAPgAm-nbsp+ADsAPA-/span+AD4APA-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/pre+A=
D4-
+ADw-pre style+AD0AIg-margin-left:.5in+ADs-background:white+ADs-background-=
attachment:scroll+ADs-background-position-x:0+ACUAOw-background-position-y:=
0+ACUAIgA+ADw-span style+AD0AIg-font-size:11.0pt+ADs-font-family:+ACY-quot+=
ADs-Calibri+ACY-quot+ADs-,sans-serif+ADs-color:+ACM-2F5597+ACIAPgAm-nbsp+AD=
sAPA-/span+AD4APA-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/pre+AD4-
+ADw-pre style+AD0AIg-margin-left:47.55pt+ADs-background:white+ADs-backgrou=
nd-attachment:scroll+ADs-background-position-x:0+ACUAOw-background-position=
-y:0+ACUAIgA+ADw-span style+AD0AIg-font-size:11.0pt+ADs-font-family:+ACY-qu=
ot+ADs-Calibri+ACY-quot+ADs-,sans-serif+ADs-color:+ACM-2F5597+ACIAPg--Giri =
Mandyam+ADw-/span+AD4APA-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/pre+AD4-
+ADw-div+AD4-
+ADw-div style+AD0AIg-border:none+ADs-border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt+ADs=
-padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in+ADs-border-color:currentcolor currentcolor+ACIAP=
g-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:auto+ADs=
-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ADs-margin-left:47.55pt+ACIAPg-
+ADw-b+AD4-From:+ADw-/b+AD4- RATS +ACY-lt+ADsAPA-a href+AD0AIg-mailto:rats-=
bounces+AEA-ietf.org+ACI- target+AD0AIgBf-blank+ACIAPg-rats-bounces+AEA-iet=
f.org+ADw-/a+AD4AJg-gt+ADs-
+ADw-b+AD4-On Behalf Of +ADw-/b+AD4-Laurence Lundblade+ADw-br+AD4-
+ADw-b+AD4-Sent:+ADw-/b+AD4- Friday, August 30, 2019 12:36 PM+ADw-br+AD4-
+ADw-b+AD4-To:+ADw-/b+AD4- Smith, Ned +ACY-lt+ADsAPA-a href+AD0AIg-mailto:n=
ed.smith+AEA-intel.com+ACI- target+AD0AIgBf-blank+ACIAPg-ned.smith+AEA-inte=
l.com+ADw-/a+AD4AJg-gt+ADsAPA-br+AD4-
+ADw-b+AD4-Cc:+ADw-/b+AD4- +ADw-a href+AD0AIg-mailto:rats+AEA-ietf.org+ACI-=
 target+AD0AIgBf-blank+ACIAPg-rats+AEA-ietf.org+ADw-/a+AD4APA-br+AD4-
+ADw-b+AD4-Subject:+ADw-/b+AD4- +AFs-Rats+AF0- attester vs measurement targ=
et (was Re: Use the term +ACY-quot+ADs-attester+ACY-quot+ADs- instead of ro=
ot of trust)+ADw-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-p style+AD0AIg-margin-left:.5in+ACIAPgA8-strong+AD4APA-span style+AD0A=
Ig-font-size:8.5pt+ADs-font-family:+ACY-quot+ADs-Arial+ACY-quot+ADs-,sans-s=
erif+ADs-color:black+ADs-background:+ACM-FFEB9C+ACIAPg-CAUTION+ADw-/span+AD=
4APA-/strong+AD4APA-span style+AD0AIg-font-size:8.5pt+ADs-font-family:+ACY-=
quot+ADs-Arial+ACY-quot+ADs-,sans-serif+ADs-color:black+ADs-background:+ACM=
-FFEB9C+ACIAPg-: This email originated
 from outside of the organization.+ADw-/span+AD4APA-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-=
/p+AD4-
+ADw-div+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:auto+ADs=
-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ACIAPg-Changed the subject as I want to reorien=
t the discussion a bit. Apologies if this is all obvious to you.+ACY-nbsp+A=
DsAPA-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-div+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:auto+ADs=
-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ACIAPg-When measurements are being performed th=
ere is the subsystem that is doing the reporting / measuring and the subsys=
tem that is being measured.+ACY-nbsp+ADsAWw-nms+AF0- +ACYAIw-43+ADs-1+ADw-o=
:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-div+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:auto+ADs=
-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ACIAPg-I think the attester+ACY-nbsp+ADs-is the=
 subsystem that is doing the reporting. It generates and formats the claims=
, has the signing key and does the signing. +AFs-nms+AF0- +ACYAIw-43+ADs-1+=
ADw-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-div+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:auto+ADs=
-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ACIAPg-I am calling the subsystem that is being=
 measured the measurement target. I am proposing that the attester measures=
+ACY-nbsp+ADs-the measurement target in RATS architecture.
+ADw-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:auto+ADs=
-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ACIAPgBb-nms+AF0- The semantics of +IBg-atteste=
r measures the measurement target+IBk- seems correct to me. Based on the de=
finitions I+IBk-ve seen for +IBw-entity+IB0- it seems correct to say a +IBg=
-measurement target+IBk-
 is an entity. It seems correct to say the +IBg-attester is an entity+IBk- =
too. But they are different entities. Since an entity can be lots of things=
 and we need to disambiguate what is relevant to attestation, the architect=
ure introduced the idea of role names. We
 chose +IBg-attester+IBk-, +IBg-verifier+IBk-, +IBg-relying party+IBk- and =
+IBg-asserter+IBk-. There are many possible alternative synonymous or nearl=
y synonymous choices to be found in an English dictionary and in computer s=
ecurity literature. The role names are just place holder names for
 now, IMO. If RATS WG prefers using different strings then these then some =
alternatives can be proposed. I+IBk-m OK using these for now as place holde=
rs that allow the group to discuss RATS roles semantics.+ADw-o:p+AD4APA-/o:=
p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:auto+ADs=
-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ACIAPg-Going back to measurement target, I don+=
IBk-t think +IBg-measurement target+IBk- conceptually would be a RATS role =
since it is being acted upon rather than doing something. +ACY-nbsp+ADsAPA-=
o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:auto+ADs=
-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ACIAPg-Note: Butler Lampson+IBk-s paper +AFs-4+=
AF0- uses +IBg-Principal+IBk- to name entities that can +IBg-say+IBk- somet=
hing +ACY-nbsp+ADs-(e.g. +IBw-X+IB0-) or can +IBg-speak-for+IBk- another Pr=
incipal. Using Lampson+IBk-s terminology, the semantic
 is +IBw-the Principal named +IBg-Attester+IBk- measures the Object named +=
IBg-Measurement target+IBk-.+IB0- Since the goal of the architecture is to =
provide a meta model for attestation behavior, it makes sense to use place =
holder names +IBg-Attester+IBk- and +IBg-Measurement Target+IBk- rather
 than actual instance names. BTW: Lampson clarifies that Objects are also P=
rincipals because of the identity property. This allows anything to say wha=
t it is. I.e. X says X. Ultimately +IBg-measurement target+IBk- is just a p=
laceholder name for an Object that is +IBw-the
 target of a measurement operation+IB0-. Maybe the RATS WG is happier with =
a different string than +IBw-measurement target+IB0-, but we should have so=
me alternative suggestions first (so long as they don+IBk-t change intended=
 semantics).+ADw-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:auto+ADs=
-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ACIAPg-For the measurement to be of best value,=
 there must be isolation between the attester and the measurement target. F=
or example the attester doing the measurement should be a TEE,
 TPM or such. The measurement target is usually the HLOS like Linux or Wind=
ows.+ADw-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:auto+ADs=
-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ACIAPgBb-nms+AF0- +ACYAIw-43+ADs-1. I think it =
is obvious that the Attester, though isolated from the Measurement Target (=
MT) is nevertheless able to observe it.
+ADw-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:auto+ADs=
-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ACIAPg-The point of measurement is so that atta=
cks against the measurement target can be detected. If there is no isolatio=
n, the attacker that succeeds against the measurement target is
 likely to be go on to affect the attester and then the evidence (e.g. meas=
urement claims in an EAT token) can be manipulated.+ADw-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4=
APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:auto+ADs=
-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ACIAPgBb-nms+AF0- +ACYAIw-43+ADs-1+ADw-o:p+AD4A=
PA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:auto+ADs=
-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ACIAPg-In some architectures the manufacturer o=
f the attester will be different than the manufacturer of the measurement t=
arget. For example a TPM is made by a TPM chip vendor. A TEE is
 made by a SoC vendor. These are different than the HLOS vendor, the vendor=
 of Windows, Linux or the router+IBk-s OS.+ADw-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD=
4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:auto+ADs=
-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ACIAPgBb-nms+AF0- +ACYAIw-43+ADs-1+ADw-o:p+AD4A=
PA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-div+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:auto+ADs=
-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ACIAPg-The verifier role primarily needs two th=
ing to successfully verify measurement evidence.+ACY-nbsp+ADsAPA-o:p+AD4APA=
-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoListParagraph+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:a=
uto+ADs-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ADs-margin-left:47.55pt+ADs-text-indent:=
-.25in+ADs-mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1+ACIAPg-
+ADwAIQBb-if +ACE-supportLists+AF0APgA8-span style+AD0AIg-mso-list:Ignore+A=
CIAPg-1)+ADw-span style+AD0AIg-font:7.0pt +ACY-quot+ADs-Times New Roman+ACY=
-quot+ADsAIgA+ACY-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADs-
+ADw-/span+AD4APA-/span+AD4APAAhAFs-endif+AF0APg-They need the public key t=
o verify the signature generated by the attester and to know that the key i=
s trusted and probably some implied claims.+ADw-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+A=
D4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:auto+ADs=
-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ACIAPgBb-nms+AF0- Verifier needs to trust Attes=
ter. The trust path can be modeled using Lampson. See Figure 4 in +AFs-4+AF=
0- as it seems pretty close to describing how this works for your example i=
nvolving
 both keys and implied claims. +ADw-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-ol start+AD0AIg-2+ACI- type+AD0AIg-1+ACIAPg-
+ADw-li class+AD0AIg-MsoListParagraph+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:=
auto+ADs-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ADs-margin-left:0in+ADs-mso-list:l0 lev=
el1 lfo1+ACIAPg-
They need the reference values for what is being measured. For example, the=
 expected values for Linux kernel 5.x on x86 or such.+ADw-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+A=
D4APA-/li+AD4APA-/ol+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:auto+ADs=
-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ADs-margin-left:4.8pt+ACIAPg-
+AFs-nms+AF0- Verifier also needs to trust that +IBw-Asserters+IB0- who cla=
im that their assertions are +IBg-golden+IBk- or +IBg-known good+IBk- or +I=
Bg-reference+IBk- values. This is another conversation the Verifier has tha=
t needs a trust path as exemplified in +AFs-4+AF0-, figurer 4.+ADw-o:p+AD4A=
PA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:auto+ADs=
-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ACIAPg-I think 1) and 2) are likely to come fro=
m different manufacturers and thereby might be depicted as separate roles i=
n the architecture.+ADw-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:auto+ADs=
-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ACIAPgBb-nms+AF0- I disagree that RATS roles ne=
ed to change because the entities performing the role differs. It is a case=
 of multiple entities performing the same function (that produces the
 same class of output). +ADw-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-div+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoListParagraph+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:a=
uto+ADs-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ADs-margin-left:47.55pt+ADs-text-indent:=
-.25in+ADs-mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2+ACIAPg-
+ADwAIQBb-if +ACE-supportLists+AF0APgA8-span style+AD0AIg-mso-list:Ignore+A=
CIAPg-1)+ADw-span style+AD0AIg-font:7.0pt +ACY-quot+ADs-Times New Roman+ACY=
-quot+ADsAIgA+ACY-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADs-
+ADw-/span+AD4APA-/span+AD4APAAhAFs-endif+AF0APg-requires the out-of-band t=
rust role. A RATS system without 1) (above?) is not very secure and not som=
ething we want to put in our architecture.+ADw-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD=
4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:auto+ADs=
-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ACIAPgBb-nms+AF0- The idea that +IBg-an entity =
is more secure than X+IBk- is actually a determination a Relying Party shou=
ld make. Attestation should supply it with information that allows the eval=
uation
 to take place.+ADw-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-div+AD4-
+ADw-ol start+AD0AIg-2+ACI- type+AD0AIg-1+ACIAPg-
+ADw-li class+AD0AIg-MsoListParagraph+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:=
auto+ADs-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ADs-margin-left:0in+ADs-mso-list:l1 lev=
el1 lfo2+ACIAPg-
requires the reference-value supplier role. Some RATS systems will have 2) =
(above?) and some will not. You can have a RATS system without 2). Android =
Key Store and FIDO+IBk-s use of attestation are examples.+ADw-o:p+AD4APA-/o=
:p+AD4APA-/li+AD4APA-/ol+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:auto+ADs=
-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ACIAPgBb-nms+AF0- Currently, the RATS architect=
ure is using +IBg-Asserter+IBk-. Though in past revisions it was +IBg-Claim=
ant+IBk-. Neither of these seem perfect. Although, it seems the majority of=
 cases where
 Assertions from Asserters will be supply chain entities, there are cases (=
e.g. virtualized environments) where non-supply-chain entities take on the =
Asserter role. It would be great if RATS WG could find single word role nam=
es as this makes talking about them
 easier and reduces the need for acronyms.+ADw-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD=
4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-div+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:auto+ADs=
-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ACIAPg-The verifier has to have a trust relatio=
nship with both the manufacturer of the attester and the manufacture of the=
 HLOS.
+ADw-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:auto+ADs=
-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ACIAPgBb-nms+AF0- I don+IBk-t recall what HLOS =
means (expands to).+ADw-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:auto+ADs=
-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ACIAPg-Or perhaps I should call these two the a=
ttestion asserter and the reference-value asserter. (I prefer manufacturer =
because +IBw-asserter+IB0- is too close to +IBw-attester+IB0-, is fairly ab=
stract
 and has some confusion around it for me).+ADw-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD=
4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:auto+ADs=
-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ACIAPgBb-nms+AF0- Are you suggesting +IBg-Suppl=
ier+IBk-? Some have suggested +IBg-Endorser+IBk-.
+ADw-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-div+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:auto+ADs=
-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ADs-margin-left:.5in+ACIAPg-
LL+ADw-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-div+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:auto+ADs=
-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ADs-margin-left:.5in+ACIAPg-
+ACY-nbsp+ADsAPA-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-div+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:auto+ADs=
-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ADs-margin-left:.5in+ACIAPg-
+ACY-nbsp+ADsAPA-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-div+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:auto+ADs=
-margin-bottom:12.0pt+ADs-margin-left:.5in+ACIAPg-
+ADw-o:p+AD4AJg-nbsp+ADsAPA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-blockquote style+AD0AIg-margin-top:5.0pt+ADs-margin-bottom:5.0pt+ACIAP=
g-
+ADw-div+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:auto+ADs=
-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ADs-margin-left:.5in+ACIAPg-
On Aug 23, 2019, at 12:53 PM, Smith, Ned +ACY-lt+ADsAPA-a href+AD0AIg-mailt=
o:ned.smith+AEA-intel.com+ACI- target+AD0AIgBf-blank+ACIAPg-ned.smith+AEA-i=
ntel.com+ADw-/a+AD4AJg-gt+ADs- wrote:+ADw-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:auto+ADs=
-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ADs-margin-left:.5in+ACIAPg-
+ACY-nbsp+ADsAPA-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-div+AD4-
+ADw-div style+AD0AIg-margin-left:.5in+ACIAPg-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:auto+ADs=
-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ADs-margin-left:.5in+ACIAPg-
+AFs-snip+AF0APA-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-div+AD4-
+ADw-div style+AD0AIg-margin-left:.5in+ACIAPg-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:auto+ADs=
-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ADs-margin-left:.5in+ACIAPg-
+ACY-nbsp+ADsAPA-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-div+AD4-
+ADw-div style+AD0AIg-margin-left:.5in+ACIAPg-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:auto+ADs=
-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ADs-margin-left:.5in+ACIAPg-
I think the out-of-band trust role is much more important than the referenc=
e-value-supplying role.+ADw-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-div style+AD0AIg-margin-left:.5in+ACIAPg-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:auto+ADs=
-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ADs-margin-left:.5in+ADs-text-indent:.5in+ACIAP=
g-
+AFs-nms+AF0- I may not understand what you mean by these terms +IBw-out-of=
-band trust role+IB0- and +IBw-reference-value-supplying role+IB0-. General=
ly, they appear to fit in the +IBw-Asserter role+IB0- side of the diagram H=
enk displayed at 105 session +ACM-2.+ADw-span class+AD0AIg-gmail-m-83603306=
93709964158apple-converted-space+ACIAPgAm-nbsp+ADsAPA-/span+AD4APA-o:p+AD4A=
PA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-div style+AD0AIg-margin-left:.5in+ACIAPg-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:auto+ADs=
-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ADs-margin-left:.5in+ADs-text-indent:.5in+ACIAP=
g-
+ACY-nbsp+ADsAPA-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-div style+AD0AIg-margin-left:.5in+ACIAPg-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:auto+ADs=
-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ADs-margin-left:.5in+ACIAPg-
You can have real attestation without reference values. For example, most c=
laims can be implicit. The entity has secure boot and can be assumed to per=
form correctly. Maybe the only claim is location.+ADw-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4AP=
A-/p+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-div style+AD0AIg-margin-left:.5in+ACIAPg-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:auto+ADs=
-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ADs-margin-left:.5in+ADs-text-indent:.5in+ACIAP=
g-
+AFs-nms+AF0- I agree the Verifier role needs to somehow know which claims =
/ assertions of trustworthiness apply to the Attester and that not all clai=
ms must be conveyed as Evidence. A definition of implicit attestation might=
 suggest all assertions of trustworthiness
 could be conveyed via an out-of-band channel (where out-of-band refers to =
a conveyance that isn+IBk-t the one carrying Evidence). Recall, that the RA=
TS WG deemed definition of Asserter / Assertions out of scope for now. Of c=
ourse the architecture can talk about
 them. Hence, it is in scope to say that Evidence could be as simple as a N=
once claim and a Verifier could conclude that the Nonce +ACYAIw-43+ADs- OOB=
 claims +AD0- effective claim set. More concretely, the Evidence claims set=
 (E) +ACYAIw-43+ADs- (union) the Assertions claims set (A) +AD0- effectiVe
 claims set (V).+ADw-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-div style+AD0AIg-margin-left:.5in+ACIAPg-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:auto+ADs=
-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ADs-margin-left:.5in+ADs-text-indent:.5in+ACIAP=
g-
I+IBk-m not sure if you are also suggesting that implicit could mean someth=
ing other than explicitly described Assertions. For example, Asserter and V=
erifier could meet at a coffee shop and agree that whenever a certificate p=
ath resolves to the trust anchor for
 the Asserter that claims set (S) also can be inferred. Hence, V +AD0- (S +=
ACYAIw-43+ADs- A +ACYAIw-43+ADs- E). The charter limitation implies we can =
define drafts that define E for the Attester and Verifier roles and S and A=
 for the Verifier role only and not how Verifier obtains (S, A).+ADw-span c=
lass+AD0AIg-gmail-m-8360330693709964158apple-converted-space+ACIAPgAm-nbsp+=
ADsAPA-/span+AD4APA-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-div+AD4-
+ADw-div style+AD0AIg-margin-left:.5in+ACIAPg-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:auto+ADs=
-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ADs-margin-left:.5in+ACIAPg-
+ACY-nbsp+ADsAPA-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-div+AD4-
+ADw-div style+AD0AIg-margin-left:.5in+ACIAPg-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:auto+ADs=
-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ADs-margin-left:.5in+ACIAPg-
If you don+IBk-t have the +AFs-1+AF0- out-of-band trust, the measurements a=
re worthless, so the architecture is incomplete if it just has a role that =
provides reference values.+ADw-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-div+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:auto+ADs=
-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ADs-margin-left:.5in+ACIAPg-
+ACY-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJ=
g-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-n=
bsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADs- +ACY-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-n=
bsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp=
+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADs- +AFs-nms+=
AF0- Right. The architecture should assume that role entities have valid cr=
edentials (e.g. certificates +ACYAIw-43+ADs- private key) and that the Veri=
fier can resolve that it trusts the role entities+IBk- credentials (somehow=
). If +IBg-out-of-band+IBk-
 +AFs-1+AF0- means Asserter(s) then their Assertions (measurements) are exp=
ected to be their +IBw-provable assertions+IB0AOw- where provable means sig=
ned by the Asserter+IBk-s credential key.+ADw-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4=
-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-div style+AD0AIg-margin-left:.5in+ACIAPg-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:auto+ADs=
-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ADs-margin-left:.5in+ADs-text-indent:.5in+ACIAP=
g-
+AFs-nms+AF0- We might want to qualify +IBw-Assertions+IB0- as +IBw-Provabl=
e Assertions+IB0- in the architecture to make it clear that there is a way =
for the Verifier to accept them without blindly trusting an assertion given=
 to it. This would also qualify it in terms of an ISO/IEC
 terminology that defines Assertion as +IBg-a statement that is not necessa=
rily provable+IBk-.+ADw-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-div+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:auto+ADs=
-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ADs-margin-left:.5in+ACIAPg-
+ACY-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJ=
g-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-n=
bsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp=
+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+AD=
sAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADs- =
+AFs-nms+AF0- We could have a discussion about the+ADw-span class+AD0AIg-gm=
ail-m-8360330693709964158apple-converted-space+ACIAPgAm-nbsp+ADsAPA-/span+A=
D4APA-i+AD4-veracity+ADw-/i+AD4APA-span class+AD0AIg-gmail-m-83603306937099=
64158apple-converted-space+ACIAPgAm-nbsp+ADsAPA-/span+AD4-of Asserter(s)+IB=
k- credentials.
 But I think it ends up being a recursion of the RATS architecture. This is=
n+IBk-t an interesting rat hole (pun intended), except for being convinced =
that the recursion terminates. For example, with some sort of trust anchor =
provisioning protocol or manual process
 (see +AFs-snip+AF0-).+ADw-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-div+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:auto+ADs=
-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ADs-margin-left:.5in+ACIAPg-
+ACY-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJ=
g-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-n=
bsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp=
+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+AD=
sAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAJg-nbsp+ADsAP=
A-span class+AD0AIg-gmail-m-8360330693709964158apple-converted-space+ACIAPg=
Am-nbsp+ADsAPA-/span+AD4APA-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-div+AD4-
+ADw-div style+AD0AIg-margin-left:.5in+ACIAPg-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:auto+ADs=
-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ADs-margin-left:.5in+ACIAPg-
I hope we can get to a clear architecture with all of this laid out. I thin=
k it will help cut through a lot of confused conversations.+ADw-o:p+AD4APA-=
/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-div style+AD0AIg-margin-left:.5in+ACIAPg-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:auto+ADs=
-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ADs-margin-left:.5in+ADs-text-indent:.5in+ACIAP=
g-
+AFs-nms+AF0- +ACYAIw-43+ADs-1+ADw-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-div+AD4-
+ADw-div style+AD0AIg-margin-left:.5in+ACIAPg-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:auto+ADs=
-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ADs-margin-left:.5in+ACIAPg-
+ACY-nbsp+ADsAPA-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-div+AD4-
+ADw-div style+AD0AIg-margin-left:.5in+ACIAPg-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:auto+ADs=
-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ADs-margin-left:.5in+ACIAPg-
LL+ADw-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-/blockquote+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-mso-margin-top-alt:auto+ADs=
-mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto+ADs-margin-left:.5in+ACIAPg-
+ACY-nbsp+ADsAPA-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-p class+AD0AIg-MsoNormal+ACI- style+AD0AIg-margin-left:.5in+ACIAPgBfAF=
8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AX=
wBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8AXwBfAF8APA-br+AD4-
RATS mailing list+ADw-br+AD4-
+ADw-a href+AD0AIg-mailto:RATS+AEA-ietf.org+ACI- target+AD0AIgBf-blank+ACIA=
Pg-RATS+AEA-ietf.org+ADw-/a+AD4APA-br+AD4-
+ADw-a href+AD0AIg-https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats+ACI- target+A=
D0AIgBf-blank+ACIAPg-https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats+ADw-/a+AD4A=
PA-o:p+AD4APA-/o:p+AD4APA-/p+AD4-
+ADw-/blockquote+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-/div+AD4-
+ADw-/body+AD4-
+ADw-/html+AD4-

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