From nobody Tue Oct 1 06:39:37 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3F5D120227 for ; Tue, 1 Oct 2019 06:39:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eVKJbkcSV9R4 for ; Tue, 1 Oct 2019 06:39:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p3plsmtpa09-01.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa09-01.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [173.201.193.230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2AB1612081D for ; Tue, 1 Oct 2019 06:39:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.76] ([76.167.193.86]) by :SMTPAUTH: with ESMTPA id FIN5iPRJkPnnaFIN7iOb62; Tue, 01 Oct 2019 06:39:21 -0700 From: Laurence Lundblade Message-Id: <309CEFBF-CA35-4C03-8127-7D0076428A6E@island-resort.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_F698E73D-9859-4082-8AF6-30DDC9D73321" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2019 06:39:19 -0700 In-Reply-To: <3B8F8332-9BF0-4090-B42E-AB936D54013B@intel.com> Cc: "rats@ietf.org" To: "Smith, Ned" References: <3B8F8332-9BF0-4090-B42E-AB936D54013B@intel.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfAMRo/l2NcjyfExmvB5OteONGiJarDjsH+NNri9Owyc4HbgR8Gu0IABQ7WUdvM3mN2+/yCxNxIVcBTRFW0AbH9IFSym+xDxG2TrmFgimi5LfNyrr4utL Lokeg709yu2otorwwgMZkOc28fPen4tP0uJxBhvUSXrtxN7/H7pUF1yXwpo9Oh3AHKaXOsh2iZ8sQxhgacgiDQaHZ6loYhKcf6s= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Virtual Interim call for agenda X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2019 13:39:36 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_F698E73D-9859-4082-8AF6-30DDC9D73321 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Ned, Here=E2=80=99s two more topics that seem important: EAT Draft Issues including additional claims There are a bunch of open issues against the EAT draft. = I will do some clean up of = them and be prepared to give an update on them. The GitHub issues list is where I would like to track proposals for = additional claims. I definitely think we need more than we have now, = particularly around SW and measurement. Info / Data Model We still have the info / data model issue open in relation to = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-birkholz-rats-information-model-00 = . = I=E2=80=99d like to simply propose that the info / data model for claims = be in the EAT draft and that the info / data model for the conveyance = protocol be in Henk=E2=80=99s document.=20 I believe the status on vendor claims is that we are OK with inheriting = from CWT and JWT except one person, I can=E2=80=99t remember who, wanted = to enhance CWT with a Collision-Resistant Name space like JWT has. I = don=E2=80=99t think there is much to discuss until we have a written = proposal for this and it has been initially vetted with the CWT folks. = There is most certainly a means to support vendor claims today that = works reasonably well.=20 LL > On Sep 28, 2019, at 12:35 PM, Smith, Ned wrote: >=20 > Hello all! > I=E2=80=99m putting together the agenda for the RATS virtual interim = scheduled for Tuesday, Oct 8th 2019 @ 14:30 UTC (7:30 PDT). > Draft agenda so far: > - Milestones update (RATS chairs) > - Architecture draft - = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-birkholz-rats-architecture/ = - = (Henk Birkholtz) > - Interaction model draft - = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-birkholz-rats-reference-interaction= -model/ = - (Henk Birkholtz) > - Yang module draft - = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module/ = = - (Henk Birkholtz) > =20 > Also, should there be more discussion around which claims RATS WG is = going to define? > Are there missing claims? > Is there growing consensus that the claims we currently define are = sufficiently understood and relevant? > How will RATS support vendor defined claims? > =20 > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats = --Apple-Mail=_F698E73D-9859-4082-8AF6-30DDC9D73321 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi = Ned,

Here=E2=80=99s = two more topics that seem important:

EAT Draft Issues including additional = claims
There are a bunch of = open issues against the EAT draft. I will do some clean up of them and be = prepared to give an update on them.

The GitHub = issues list is where I would like to track proposals for additional = claims. I definitely think we need more than we have now, particularly = around SW and measurement.

Info / Data Model
We still have the info / data model issue = open in relation to https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-birkholz-rats-information-mod= el-00. I=E2=80=99d like to simply propose that the info / data model = for claims be in the EAT draft and that the info / data model for the = conveyance protocol be in Henk=E2=80=99s = document. 


I believe the status on vendor claims is that we are OK with = inheriting from CWT and JWT except one person, I can=E2=80=99t remember = who, wanted to enhance CWT with a Collision-Resistant Name space like JWT has. I don=E2=80=99t = think there is much to discuss until we have a written proposal for this = and it has been initially vetted with the CWT folks. There is most = certainly a means to support vendor claims today that works reasonably = well. 

LL




On Sep = 28, 2019, at 12:35 PM, Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com>= wrote:

Hello all!
I=E2=80=99m putting together the = agenda for the RATS virtual interim scheduled for Tuesday, Oct 8th 2019= @ 14:30 UTC (7:30 PDT).
Draft agenda so far:

-          Milestones = update (RATS chairs)

- =       Architecture draft - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-birkholz-rats-architectu= re/ - (Henk = Birkholtz)

-          Interaction = model draft - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-birkholz-rats-reference-= interaction-model/ -= (Henk Birkholtz)

-       Yang module draft - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang= -module/ - (Henk Birkholtz)

 
Also, should there be more = discussion around which claims RATS WG is going to define?
  • Are there missing claims?
  • Is there growing = consensus that the claims we currently define are sufficiently = understood and relevant?
  • How will RATS = support vendor defined claims?
 
_______________________________________________
RATS mailing list
RATS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats

= --Apple-Mail=_F698E73D-9859-4082-8AF6-30DDC9D73321-- From nobody Tue Oct 1 07:28:31 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A063120098 for ; Tue, 1 Oct 2019 07:28:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y_o720ZVc1ap for ; Tue, 1 Oct 2019 07:28:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x82a.google.com (mail-qt1-x82a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 63F76120018 for ; Tue, 1 Oct 2019 07:28:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x82a.google.com with SMTP id c3so21804353qtv.10 for ; Tue, 01 Oct 2019 07:28:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=hRh+u4ssn5g9To7ghOdzeG+FLeRE/j/lJupktZIlv4Q=; b=NsUaOrK1uY91Tm3TqJb+aeCfAXlVzCebGzCzbf4bL4kge1Gwnm2sHzWJUpQvi4GuZ8 Mj/DpOAmrPek3N0nKVi9JftzzCGg7dZJVgj4F1o4bLZO0eBMQXwXH8pz6MJamPkPzHuZ MMCSxo7YTDu6hGnAwT5PL0Q91UHJTo4Wh8x1eJWgcx5Gu1q+uN/oAPw3wop/zIW/l2nN DOkciNxUEqKlax15M9i2G9QXuSzKYvNoJ3hpEei9GjtNkFbUbje8FAR/VWMA4V5lEu9P CQ71gp+0i7KA9TGd+oGHbCK2W4Cf6iY74dxTSYvcC+lNl5emwic8H9YqKYacSOsx9nse hVKQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=hRh+u4ssn5g9To7ghOdzeG+FLeRE/j/lJupktZIlv4Q=; b=kvKRKBy0sClAIIzbr0L5jWEdBqPBKoFIT1oRIY7S48P4gyCyYPcaki6o8HBWM1HDnY lGg3Pl5f2Nm9dwvigbE43pOZqz4eAd1atXy97B1QtkgpngIvGLj287zKH0I+hVoTtqp5 jc4XwHY4DbEco/GIkBHZpAE+mES0ECvEDRPJ8eDCBQ5qSLD6OPCOynql6Rtvf4cJYXd7 jVdhRXE6LGqvlfKnIN5YOonnHyj4uNikbCeMpBAv8xdA0Elq14XCj5Y6fLOHkOfB5jRI Yi5ebpFX+1iTqEHDv5fjV+mhUx3rfkAqGdnnvYgKO9QFDrZWfmZAyjUV9mdK0crKJv0d 9ujA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAURIKgtn27W+vj9aChjtnmAw2UjbjLrA0yfoZFvanidPaDIlTmU Q0XzgJ/R7IGZnfiwHQaEPkiAxazQ X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqybe3pm6JzV/HqPrCnnPUzmaaHe980Kv2yrNPyzM2lCFIv9tI3FAxA32+Z8oT2MgxyKamA5aQ== X-Received: by 2002:aed:2da3:: with SMTP id i32mr31294949qtd.299.1569940106187; Tue, 01 Oct 2019 07:28:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2600:380:592b:bd8e:e89c:bf32:27b1:b14? ([2600:380:592b:bd8e:e89c:bf32:27b1:b14]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m125sm8280929qkd.3.2019.10.01.07.28.25 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 01 Oct 2019 07:28:25 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-827D7B67-445F-413A-BBAD-DDE38BED49B1 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Kathleen Moriarty X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16G102) In-Reply-To: <309CEFBF-CA35-4C03-8127-7D0076428A6E@island-resort.com> Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2019 10:28:24 -0400 Cc: "Smith, Ned" , "rats@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: References: <3B8F8332-9BF0-4090-B42E-AB936D54013B@intel.com> <309CEFBF-CA35-4C03-8127-7D0076428A6E@island-resort.com> To: Laurence Lundblade Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Virtual Interim call for agenda X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2019 14:28:29 -0000 --Apple-Mail-827D7B67-445F-413A-BBAD-DDE38BED49B1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sent from my mobile device > On Oct 1, 2019, at 9:39 AM, Laurence Lundblade wro= te: >=20 > Hi Ned, >=20 > Here=E2=80=99s two more topics that seem important: >=20 > EAT Draft Issues including additional claims > There are a bunch of open issues against the EAT draft. I will do some cle= an up of them and be prepared to give an update on them. >=20 > The GitHub issues list is where I would like to track proposals for additi= onal claims. I definitely think we need more than we have now, particularly a= round SW and measurement. >=20 > Info / Data Model > We still have the info / data model issue open in relation to https://tool= s.ietf.org/html/draft-birkholz-rats-information-model-00. I=E2=80=99d like t= o simply propose that the info / data model for claims be in the EAT draft a= nd that the info / data model for the conveyance protocol be in Henk=E2=80=99= s document.=20 >=20 >=20 > I believe the status on vendor claims is that we are OK with inheriting fr= om CWT and JWT except one person, I can=E2=80=99t remember who, wanted to en= hance CWT with a Collision-Resistant Name space like JWT has. I don=E2=80=99= t think there is much to discuss until we have a written proposal for this a= nd it has been initially vetted with the CWT folks. There is most certainly a= means to support vendor claims today that works reasonably well.=20 This may have been Russ Housley and if so, we should discuss it further if h= e has a proposal or someone else submits one. With no hats: For the RATS architecture draft, my review wasn=E2=80=99t mentioned in Henk=E2= =80=99s update. Were my comments considered? I=E2=80=99m not going to revie= w it unless they were as I spent a fair amount of time trying to help make t= he document more readable already.=20 Thank you, Kathleen=20 >=20 > LL >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On Sep 28, 2019, at 12:35 PM, Smith, Ned wrote: >>=20 >> Hello all! >> I=E2=80=99m putting together the agenda for the RATS virtual interim sche= duled for Tuesday, Oct 8th 2019 @ 14:30 UTC (7:30 PDT). >> Draft agenda so far: >> - Milestones update (RATS chairs) >> - Architecture draft - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-birkh= olz-rats-architecture/ - (Henk Birkholtz) >> - Interaction model draft - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/dra= ft-birkholz-rats-reference-interaction-model/ - (Henk Birkholtz) >> - Yang module draft - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-birkho= lz-rats-basic-yang-module/ - (Henk Birkholtz) >> =20 >> Also, should there be more discussion around which claims RATS WG is goin= g to define? >> Are there missing claims? >> Is there growing consensus that the claims we currently define are suffic= iently understood and relevant? >> How will RATS support vendor defined claims? >> =20 >> _______________________________________________ >> RATS mailing list >> RATS@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats >=20 > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats --Apple-Mail-827D7B67-445F-413A-BBAD-DDE38BED49B1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Sent from my mobile device

On Oct 1, 2019, a= t 9:39 AM, Laurence Lundblade <l= gl@island-resort.com> wrote:

<= div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Ned,

Her= e=E2=80=99s two more topics that seem important:

EAT Draft Issues including additional claims
<= /div>
There are a bunch of open issues against the EAT draft.<= span style=3D"font-style: normal;" class=3D""> I will do some clean up o= f them and be prepared to give an update on them.

The GitHub issu= es list is where I would like to track proposals for additional claims. I de= finitely think we need more than we have now, particularly around SW and mea= surement.

Info / D= ata Model
We still have the i= nfo / data model issue open in relation to https://tool= s.ietf.org/html/draft-birkholz-rats-information-model-00. I=E2=80=99d li= ke to simply propose that the info / data model for claims be in the EAT dra= ft and that the info / data model for the conveyance protocol be in Henk=E2=80= =99s document. 


I= believe the status on vendor claims is that we are OK with inheriting from C= WT and JWT except one person, I can=E2=80=99t remember who, wanted to enhanc= e CWT with a Collision-Resistant Name space= like JWT has. I don=E2=80=99t think there is much to discuss until we have a= written proposal for this and it has been initially vetted with the CWT fol= ks. There is most certainly a means to support vendor claims today that work= s reasonably well. 

This may have been Russ Housley and if so, we should discuss it further if h= e has a proposal or someone else submits one.

With no hat= s:
For the RATS architecture draft, my review wasn=E2=80=99t menti= oned in Henk=E2=80=99s update.  Were my comments considered? I=E2=80=99= m not going to review it unless they were as I spent a fair amount of time t= rying to help make the document more readable already. 

<= /div>
Thank you,
Kathleen 
<= div dir=3D"ltr">
=
LL




On Sep 28, 2019, at 12:35 PM, Smith, Ne= d <ned.smith@intel.com<= /a>> wrote:

=
Hello all!
I=E2=80=99m putting together the agenda for the R= ATS virtual interim scheduled for Tuesday, Oct 8th 2019 @ 14:30 UTC (7:30 PDT).<= o:p class=3D"">
Draft agenda so far:

-=          = ; <= /span>Milestones update (RATS chairs)

- &nb= sp;     Architecture draft - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-birkholz-rat= s-architecture/ - (Hen= k Birkholtz)

-  &nbs= p;       Inter= action model draft - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-birkholz-rats-reference-i= nteraction-model/ - (H= enk Birkholtz)

-       Yang m= odule draft - https://datat= racker.ietf.org/doc/draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module/=  - (Henk Birkholtz)=

 
Also, should there be more discussion around w= hich claims RATS WG is going to define?
  • Are there missing claims?<= /o:p>
  • Is there grow= ing consensus that the claims we currently define are sufficiently understoo= d and relevant?
  • How will RATS support vendor defined claims?
    •  
    ______________= _________________________________
    R= ATS mailing list
    RATS@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats

    _______________________________________________<= br>RATS mailing list
    = RATS@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
    =
    = --Apple-Mail-827D7B67-445F-413A-BBAD-DDE38BED49B1-- From nobody Tue Oct 1 09:39:37 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69DB21200D8 for ; Tue, 1 Oct 2019 09:39:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HOYdHAFXg5Aw for ; Tue, 1 Oct 2019 09:39:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.72.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7E1111200CD for ; Tue, 1 Oct 2019 09:39:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (mail.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.84.171]) by mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-10) with ESMTPS id x91GdRI8012920 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 1 Oct 2019 18:39:28 +0200 Received: from [192.168.43.221] (80.187.108.61) by mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (141.12.84.171) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.468.0; Tue, 1 Oct 2019 18:39:22 +0200 To: Kathleen Moriarty , Laurence Lundblade CC: "rats@ietf.org" , "Smith, Ned" References: <3B8F8332-9BF0-4090-B42E-AB936D54013B@intel.com> <309CEFBF-CA35-4C03-8127-7D0076428A6E@island-resort.com> From: Henk Birkholz Message-ID: <07a63577-f23e-3172-3167-fcee0dceedb2@sit.fraunhofer.de> Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2019 18:39:21 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [80.187.108.61] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Virtual Interim call for agenda X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2019 16:39:36 -0000 Hi Kathleen, TL;DR In essence, yes, and I recommend to review now. But... The significant portion of your comments was very text/paragraph/list/wording specific. As we basically refactored the whole document, we tried to retain the "intent/spirit" of you comments - including the notion of a "level of confidence" (which you then suggested to be named "level of assurance" in retrospect). There might be occurrences where you find the same... systematic issue in different text again. That would be an oversight on our part. The I-D went through 4 passes of edits which created basically a new document, I think. IHTH and is not too discouraging wrt to reviewing the I-D! Viele Grüße, Henk On 01.10.19 16:28, Kathleen Moriarty wrote: > > > Sent from my mobile device > > On Oct 1, 2019, at 9:39 AM, Laurence Lundblade > wrote: > >> Hi Ned, >> >> Here’s two more topics that seem important: >> >> _EAT Draft Issues including additional claims_ >> There are a bunch of open issues against the EAT draft. >>  I will do some clean >> up of them and be prepared to give an update on them. >> >> The GitHub issues list is where I would like to track proposals >> for additional claims. I definitely think we need more than we >> have now, particularly around SW and measurement. >> _ >> _ >> _Info / Data Model_ >> We still have the info / data model issue open in relation to >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-birkholz-rats-information-model-00. >> I’d like to simply propose that the info / data model for claims >> be in the EAT draft and that the info / data model for the >> conveyance protocol be in Henk’s document. >> >> >> >> I believe the status on vendor claims is that we are OK with >> inheriting from CWT and JWT except one person, I can’t remember who, >> wanted to enhance CWT with a Collision-Resistant Name space like JWT >> has. I don’t think there is much to discuss until we have a written >> proposal for this and it has been initially vetted with the CWT folks. >> There is most certainly a means to support vendor claims today that >> works reasonably well. > > This may have been Russ Housley and if so, we should discuss it further > if he has a proposal or someone else submits one. > > With no hats: > For the RATS architecture draft, my review wasn’t mentioned in Henk’s > update.  Were my comments considered? I’m not going to review it unless > they were as I spent a fair amount of time trying to help make the > document more readable already. > > Thank you, > Kathleen >> >> LL >> >> >> >> >>> On Sep 28, 2019, at 12:35 PM, Smith, Ned >> > wrote: >>> >>> Hello all! >>> I’m putting together the agenda for the RATS virtual interim >>> scheduled for Tuesday, Oct 8^th 2019 @ 14:30 UTC (7:30 PDT). >>> Draft agenda so far: >>> >>> -Milestones update (RATS chairs) >>> >>> -       Architecture draft >>> -https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-birkholz-rats-architecture/- >>> (Henk Birkholtz) >>> >>> -Interaction model draft >>> -https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-birkholz-rats-reference-interaction-model/- >>> (Henk Birkholtz) >>> >>> -       Yang module draft >>> -https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module/- >>> (Henk Birkholtz) >>> >>> Also, should there be more discussion around which claims RATS WG is >>> going to define? >>> >>> * Are there missing claims? >>> * Is there growing consensus that the claims we currently define >>> are sufficiently understood and relevant? >>> * How will RATS support vendor defined claims? >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> RATS mailing list >>> RATS@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats >> >> _______________________________________________ >> RATS mailing list >> RATS@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > From nobody Tue Oct 1 13:44:19 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E297C120089 for ; Tue, 1 Oct 2019 13:44:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id piaylMnhGBaz for ; Tue, 1 Oct 2019 13:44:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x82b.google.com (mail-qt1-x82b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 437A31200E7 for ; Tue, 1 Oct 2019 13:44:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x82b.google.com with SMTP id n7so23437569qtb.6 for ; Tue, 01 Oct 2019 13:44:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=sAzw4n2vQDEwRmML4ChjXNR02dwZjmbcP9ysceNMNUA=; b=mNW1OfnburkQ+oD1/oY/hL5a8avrZBQxR+xfsdry6DPXNQ0Oi/fZS8Bt3tJkXzy5D0 DRqcDuppuBBHC2mm8RE0p5IKMYJfya9FjYPhL4IhOJ3f31G8JYpYUPGJCSgey18AorOo 4pTMbVbbrqvOYpP3hbJ0DPS8zvToC0GRt/IMd4h90O2UBrrSm2sR5Iv73Lh8ALmoy4g5 lPV//hoK0DC3jByCJE9ifnhoRab+tjl05qLXGxdBLhGixsm4VoJSCnZVz845+nPdlnm5 Lc7x8ifUAOX9nyxOnZRNCUBjwMY4z9C5w7E4XqSg6tFdHs3DpXOaJqRQrG7jTjOjgmwE V8UQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=sAzw4n2vQDEwRmML4ChjXNR02dwZjmbcP9ysceNMNUA=; b=RjcSDR4YRwljzxG6PqP/v/eAX8swyJR62SLwpjGs9PFKqJgQG5bQ2Vvb5TPBLAhpj7 s40JeCl7kqbNjgaXxkEYvT9gZmqQtKIbUEnfKC/R0+Kmq8YtIZYKC3ooM2hEPzfBqsbR h0GEJlShsZo74yTO042GjWwFEGmYnyw804s1EIGOtgcA3HChgp+r+wnk/UhaveoD2SgT lEkibOqxS/ztFupJm3AICpSrbFMT5zNH4BkNmPCTnVAR87Iafw67NftJA8nzq4R5z0gc dxBiJK6EnaAfMWOz05Xfw4kqhUNdqA+bKYC8ClMKY6fC7gnBNpsfyh2peTWg98tjWCsB ATKw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXb8X6C+911qaiLUQQX9McSH1UDrGnRzFbZw8OzUFG1NG7N03rw akQj5ImlHkJRnnlwmL1QYtPF5wPk X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqx/It3kHLlaoBuRiKHksdgfYfWzmaFDTwA3t20ZoDrLCmkO0AZFZoKI2bHOY2y36+jFesPe5w== X-Received: by 2002:aed:2da3:: with SMTP id i32mr207354qtd.299.1569962652164; Tue, 01 Oct 2019 13:44:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2600:380:592b:bd8e:e89c:bf32:27b1:b14? ([2600:380:592b:bd8e:e89c:bf32:27b1:b14]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t32sm11393289qtb.64.2019.10.01.13.44.11 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 01 Oct 2019 13:44:11 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Kathleen Moriarty X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (16G102) In-Reply-To: <07a63577-f23e-3172-3167-fcee0dceedb2@sit.fraunhofer.de> Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2019 16:44:10 -0400 Cc: Laurence Lundblade , "rats@ietf.org" , "Smith, Ned" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <71C0D249-5BD2-4BE1-AC14-E8A712E0B1C1@gmail.com> References: <3B8F8332-9BF0-4090-B42E-AB936D54013B@intel.com> <309CEFBF-CA35-4C03-8127-7D0076428A6E@island-resort.com> <07a63577-f23e-3172-3167-fcee0dceedb2@sit.fraunhofer.de> To: Henk Birkholz Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Virtual Interim call for agenda X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2019 20:44:17 -0000 Thank you, Henk. Sent from my mobile device > On Oct 1, 2019, at 12:39 PM, Henk Birkholz wrote: >=20 > Hi Kathleen, >=20 > TL;DR In essence, yes, and I recommend to review now. But... >=20 > The significant portion of your comments was very text/paragraph/list/word= ing specific. As we basically refactored the whole document, we tried to ret= ain the "intent/spirit" of you comments - including the notion of a "level o= f confidence" (which you then suggested to be named "level of assurance" in r= etrospect). >=20 > There might be occurrences where you find the same... systematic issue in d= ifferent text again. That would be an oversight on our part. The I-D went th= rough 4 passes of edits which created basically a new document, I think. >=20 > IHTH and is not too discouraging wrt to reviewing the I-D! >=20 >=20 > Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, >=20 > Henk >=20 >> On 01.10.19 16:28, Kathleen Moriarty wrote: >> Sent from my mobile device >>> On Oct 1, 2019, at 9:39 AM, Laurence Lundblade > wrote: >>> Hi Ned, >>>=20 >>> Here=E2=80=99s two more topics that seem important: >>>=20 >>> _EAT Draft Issues including additional claims_ >>> There are a bunch of open issues against the EAT draft. >>> I will do some clean >>> up of them and be prepared to give an update on them. >>>=20 >>> The GitHub issues list is where I would like to track proposals >>> for additional claims. I definitely think we need more than we >>> have now, particularly around SW and measurement. >>> _ >>> _ >>> _Info / Data Model_ >>> We still have the info / data model issue open in relation to >>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-birkholz-rats-information-model-00.= >>> I=E2=80=99d like to simply propose that the info / data model for cla= ims >>> be in the EAT draft and that the info / data model for the >>> conveyance protocol be in Henk=E2=80=99s document.=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> I believe the status on vendor claims is that we are OK with inheriting f= rom CWT and JWT except one person, I can=E2=80=99t remember who, wanted to e= nhance CWT with a Collision-Resistant Name space like JWT has. I don=E2=80=99= t think there is much to discuss until we have a written proposal for this a= nd it has been initially vetted with the CWT folks. There is most certainly a= means to support vendor claims today that works reasonably well.=20 >> This may have been Russ Housley and if so, we should discuss it further i= f he has a proposal or someone else submits one. >> With no hats: >> For the RATS architecture draft, my review wasn=E2=80=99t mentioned in He= nk=E2=80=99s update. Were my comments considered? I=E2=80=99m not going to r= eview it unless they were as I spent a fair amount of time trying to help ma= ke the document more readable already. >> Thank you, >> Kathleen >>>=20 >>> LL >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> On Sep 28, 2019, at 12:35 PM, Smith, Ned > wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> Hello all! >>>> I=E2=80=99m putting together the agenda for the RATS virtual interim sc= heduled for Tuesday, Oct 8^th 2019 @ 14:30 UTC (7:30 PDT). >>>> Draft agenda so far: >>>>=20 >>>> -Milestones update (RATS chairs) >>>>=20 >>>> - Architecture draft -https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-birk= holz-rats-architecture/- (Henk Birkholtz) >>>>=20 >>>> -Interaction model draft -https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-birkho= lz-rats-reference-interaction-model/- (Henk Birkholtz) >>>>=20 >>>> - Yang module draft -https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-birkh= olz-rats-basic-yang-module/- (Henk Birkholtz) >>>>=20 >>>> Also, should there be more discussion around which claims RATS WG is go= ing to define? >>>>=20 >>>> * Are there missing claims? >>>> * Is there growing consensus that the claims we currently define >>>> are sufficiently understood and relevant? >>>> * How will RATS support vendor defined claims? >>>>=20 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> RATS mailing list >>>> RATS@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> RATS mailing list >>> RATS@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats >> _______________________________________________ >> RATS mailing list >> RATS@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats From nobody Tue Oct 1 14:31:07 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB62112008C for ; 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Tue, 1 Oct 2019 21:30:52 +0000 From: Guy Fedorkow To: Michael Richardson CC: "rats@ietf.org" , Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay , "Birkholz, Henk" Thread-Topic: re: [Rats] regarding rats-network-device-attestation; michael's comments Thread-Index: AdV4n3Yq486Z87hcTDaX8JA9y3kNDw== Content-Class: Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2019 21:30:52 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: msip_labels: MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Enabled=True; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_SiteId=bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Owner=gfedorkow@juniper.net; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_SetDate=2019-10-01T21:30:45.8680893Z; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Name=Juniper Business Use Only; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Application=Microsoft Azure Information Protection; MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_ActionId=3861ffc5-1964-4e95-89a1-bfb8b57a8e11; 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michael's comments X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2019 21:31:05 -0000 --_000_SN6PR05MB4253701358C96430B7795B2EBA9D0SN6PR05MB4253namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Michael, Thanks for the review comments. I've addressed them in my copy, along wi= th a bunch of other changes. I hope to have the rest of the updates done s= oon so I can post a new rev. Enclosed are responses to your comments, marked by [guy] /guy -----Original Message----- From: RATS On Behalf Of Michael Richardson Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2019 7:05 AM To: rats@ietf.org Subject: [Rats] regarding rats-network-device-attestation I have read through this document, and it is now the publicly available ref= erence on the TCG work for the use-case document. I have sent some edits d= irectly to the authors. [guy] Yes, the original TCG version of this doc is posted on the TCG site. = We haven't gone back to push changes into the TCG version since the IETF d= raft got under way, so the pictures in the TCG version are nicer, but the w= ords are more up to date in the IETF draft. I like the use of the term "Remote Integrity Verification". I'm not too crazy about "RIV" as a TLA in a field with way too many TLAs al= ready though, but okay. I found this text difficult: * Platform Identity refers to the mechanism assuring the attestation verifier (typically a network administrator) that the equipment on their network can be reliably identified, and that its manufacturer is certified by a trusted authority. } This certification provides the verifier with assurance that } the Root of Trust elements of the device were verified by the } manufacturer before the device was shipped. I'm not sure if the device is actually identified to the verifier (network = admin). Or that there is a *meta* claim that the device could be identified. Is this a claim that a claim was made, but the contents of the claim is not= revealed for privacy reasons? If that is the intent, then can we be more = explicit? (And that's actually a new use case). If that's not the intent, then perhaps the passive language that is confusi= ng could be changed. [guy] no Meta Claim, just clumsy wording. I've tried to simplify it > o Processor Sleep Modes: Embedded equipment typically does not > "sleep", so sleep and hibernate modes are not considered. why is this a consideration? lots of embedded systems go into low power mode all the time. [guy] I suppose. I changed it to Network Equipment, which I don't think ev= er sleeps. It's not that attestation can't be done after sleep mode, but i= t sure gets harder when the device is sort-of-but-not-quite rebooted. TCG = has various process flow charts for this, but for NetEq it's easier to leav= e it out. re: 2.4.1: DevID Alternatives. I don't find the use of LDevID to be a credible solution here. It seems that LDevID have to get installed manually, via some privacy prese= rving mechanism. Privacy preserving against who? The person or entity tha= t installs the LDevID surely gets to learn the identity of the device. I don't think we can do zero-touch provisioning without the IDevID. I would like this section to clarify the privacy threat here. [guy] Hmm, I didn't mean to imply privacy-preserving. I've revised the sec= tion a bit to try to say more clearly what they're for. Short answer: it's= like an asset tag placed by the owner of the device. If the revised draft= still implies 'privacy' let me know and I'll try again. > The TCG TPM 2.0 Keys > document [Platform-DevID-TPM-2.0] also outlines procedures for > creating Local Attestation Keys and Local Device IDs (LDevIDs) rooted > in the manufacturer's IDevID as a check to reduce the chances that > counterfeit devices are installed in the network. [Platform-DevID-TPM-2.0] <-- seems to be a draft, and so probably not publi= c? [guy] Sadly yes, still a draft. > whether the measured hashes are "the right ones" or not. up to now, you've carefully said "measurements", rather than measured hashe= s. Do you want to stick with measurement, or was there a reason to change? [guy] nope, sloppy language. I've fixed it. > Quotes from a TPM can provide evidence of the state of a device at > the time the quote was requested, but to make sense of the quote in > most cases an event log of what software modules contributed which > values to the quote during startup must also be provided. The log As I understand it, the problem of the multi-process (and multi-processor) = boot is that the hash values arrive in non-deterministic orders, and so wou= ld contribute to a straight sequential hash differently. Why aren't the different contributions either just listed, or just filled into a table with a canonical order? I'm sure you have thought of this, so there must be something I don't understand about why this solution can't= work. [guy] I think Ned would say that the log file *is* the primary record of wh= ich process started in what order, and the quote from the TPM is just a way= of 'signing' the log. In the easy case, all the verifier has to do is to read the log from fir= st to last entry, and compute the digest of all the hashes in the log. The= result should equal what's in the PCR. If it doesn't, you should look for= corruption in the log mechanism. If it does, you can look at each entry i= n the log to see whether it's filename and path line up with the measured h= ash for that object. If not, you've found the corrupted object. The harder case is when the log and the quote are out of sync, i.e., you = ask for a quote in between the time that a digest was extended into a PCR a= nd the corresponding log entry written out. Careful ordering and maybe a s= econd quote will fix the problem. If one expects ten processes, A->J to be running, have a table that is ten = items long. If one needs to be sure that there are no other processes runn= ing, then some measurement of a canonicalized process table seems to be in = order. That would omit the PID for instance, or canonicalize the PID into s= ome abstract namespace if relationships between processes were also importa= nt. Juniper Business Use Only --_000_SN6PR05MB4253701358C96430B7795B2EBA9D0SN6PR05MB4253namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Hi Michael,

      Thanks for the review comments.  I’= ;ve addressed them in my copy, along with a bunch of other changes.  I= hope to have the rest of the updates done soon so I can post a new rev.

      Enclosed are responses to your comments, mark= ed by [guy]

    /guy

     

     

    -----Original Message-----
    From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Michael Richardson Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2019 7:05 AM
    To: rats@ietf.org
    Subject: [Rats] regarding rats-network-device-attestation

     

     

    I have read through this document, and it is now = the publicly available reference on the TCG work for the use-case document.=   I have sent some edits directly to the authors.

    [guy] Yes, the original TCG version of this doc is = posted on the TCG site.  We haven’t gone back to push changes into the TCG version since the IETF draft got under way, s= o the pictures in the TCG version are nicer, but the words are more up to d= ate in the IETF draft.

     

    I like the use of the term "Remote Integrity= Verification".

    I'm not too crazy about "RIV" as a TLA = in a field with way too many TLAs already though, but okay.

     

    I found this text difficult:

     

             = * Platform Identity refers to the mechanism assuring the

            attest= ation verifier (typically a network administrator)

            that t= he equipment on their network can be reliably identified,

            and th= at its manufacturer is certified by a trusted authority.

     

    }        This = certification provides the verifier with assurance that

    }        the R= oot of Trust elements of the device were verified by the

    }        manuf= acturer before the device was shipped.

     

    I'm not sure if the device is actually identified= to the verifier (network admin).

    Or that there is a *meta* claim that the device c= ould be identified.

     

    Is this a claim that a claim was made, but the co= ntents of the claim is not revealed for privacy reasons?  If that is t= he intent, then can we be more explicit?  (And that's actually a new u= se case).

    If that's not the intent, then perhaps the passiv= e language that is confusing could be changed.

    [guy] no Meta Claim, just clumsy wording.  I&#= 8217;ve tried to simplify it

     

     

    >   o  Processor Sleep Modes: E= mbedded equipment typically does not

    >      "sleep&qu= ot;, so sleep and hibernate modes are not considered.

     

    why is this a consideration?

    lots of embedded systems go into low power mode a= ll the time.

    [guy] I suppose.  I changed it to Network Equi= pment, which I don’t think ever sleeps.  It’s not that attestation can’t be done after sleep mode, but it sure gets harder = when the device is sort-of-but-not-quite rebooted.  TCG has various pr= ocess flow charts for this, but for NetEq it’s easier to leave it out= .

     

     

    re: 2.4.1: DevID Alternatives.

     

    I don't find the use of = LDevID to be a credible solution here.

    It seem= s that LDevID have to get installed manually, via some privacy preserving m= echanism.  Privacy preserving against who?  The person or entity = that installs the LDevID surely gets to learn the identity

    of the = device.   I don't think we can do zero-touch provisioning

    without= the IDevID.

    &n= bsp;

    I would= like this section to clarify the privacy threat here.

    [guy] Hmm, I didn’t mean to imply privacy-pr= eserving.  I’ve revised the section a bit to try to say more clearly what they’re for.  Short answer: itR= 17;s like an asset tag placed by the owner of the device.  If the revi= sed draft still implies ‘privacy’ let me know and I’ll tr= y again.

    &n= bsp;

    >&nb= sp;  The TCG TPM 2.0 Keys

    >&nb= sp;  document [Platform-DevID-TPM-2.0] also outlines procedures for

    >&nb= sp;  creating Local Attestation Keys and Local Device IDs (LDevIDs) ro= oted

    >&nb= sp;  in the manufacturer's IDevID as a check to reduce the chances tha= t

    >&nb= sp;  counterfeit devices are installed in the network.

    &n= bsp;

    [Platfo= rm-DevID-TPM-2.0] <-- seems to be a draft, and so probably not public?

    &n= bsp;

    [guy] Sadly yes, still a draft.

     

    >   whether the measured hashes are = "the right ones" or not.

     

    up to now, you've carefully said "measuremen= ts", rather than measured hashes.

    Do you want to stick with measurement, or was the= re a reason to change?

    [guy] nope, sloppy language.  I’ve fixed= it.

     

    >   Quotes from a TPM can provide ev= idence of the state of a device at

    >   the time the quote was requested= , but to make sense of the quote in

    >   most cases an event log of what = software modules contributed which

    >   values to the quote during start= up must also be provided.  The log

     

    As I understand it, the problem of the multi-proc= ess (and multi-processor) boot is that the hash values arrive in non-determ= inistic orders, and so would contribute to a straight sequential hash diffe= rently.

    Why aren't the different contributions either jus= t listed, or just filled

    into a table with a canonical order?   = I'm sure you have thought of this,

    so there must be something I don't understand abo= ut why this solution can't work.

    [guy] I think Ned= would say that the log file *is* the primary record of which process start= ed in what order, and the quote from the TPM is just a way of ‘signing’ the log.<= /p>

       In t= he easy case, all the verifier has to do is to read the log from first to l= ast entry, and compute the digest of all the hashes in the log.  The result should equal what’s in the PCR.  I= f it doesn’t, you should look for corruption in the log mechanism.&nb= sp; If it does, you can look at each entry in the log to see whether itR= 17;s filename and path line up with the measured hash for that object. = ; If not, you’ve found the corrupted object.

      The harder= case is when the log and the quote are out of sync, i.e., you ask for a qu= ote in between the time that a digest was extended into a PCR and the corresponding log entry written out.  Car= eful ordering and maybe a second quote will fix the problem.

     

    If one expects ten processes, A->J to be runni= ng, have a table that is ten items long.  If one needs to be sure that= there are no other processes running, then some measurement of a canonical= ized process table seems to be in order. That would omit the PID for instance, or canonicalize the PID into some abstrac= t namespace if relationships between processes were also important.

     

     


    Juniper Business= Use Only

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Wed, 2 Oct 2019 09:00:33 +0000 Received: from VI1PR08MB5360.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::b003:8767:35c7:e31]) by VI1PR08MB5360.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::b003:8767:35c7:e31%2]) with mapi id 15.20.2305.023; Wed, 2 Oct 2019 09:00:33 +0000 From: Hannes Tschofenig To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sch=F6nw=E4lder=2C_J=FCrgen?= , "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: comments on draft-birkholz-rats-architecture-02 Thread-Index: AQHVc6wLs8eXy3dKq0+sUkZ9OD7XJadHF0Ig Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 09:00:32 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20190925141802.5kvcriaysbuw5dhi@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> In-Reply-To: <20190925141802.5kvcriaysbuw5dhi@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ts-tracking-id: 8034cca0-c12f-4a37-9ef7-cdc6e0b798ad.0 x-checkrecipientchecked: true Authentication-Results-Original: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com; x-originating-ip: [80.92.116.217] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 7a7d9aed-67fc-466f-8034-08d747170013 X-MS-Office365-Filtering-HT: Tenant X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: VI1PR08MB4080:|AM6PR08MB3703: X-MS-Exchange-PUrlCount: 2 X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: x-checkrecipientrouted: true x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000;OLM:10000; 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Ip=[63.35.35.123]; Helo=[64aa7808-outbound-1.mta.getcheckrecipient.com] X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: HybridOnPrem X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM6PR08MB3703 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] comments on draft-birkholz-rats-architecture-02 X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2019 09:00:51 -0000 Hi J=FCrgen, Thanks for your review. Looks of great questions. Below is my take on it. -----Original Message----- From: RATS On Behalf Of Sch=F6nw=E4lder, J=FCrgen Sent: Mittwoch, 25. September 2019 16:18 To: rats@ietf.org Subject: [Rats] comments on draft-birkholz-rats-architecture-02 Hi, I am rather new here to please forgive my ignorance. I thought I start by r= eading the architecture document. Some of my questions may just show my ign= orance but then this is what happens if you get fresh reads... - What is 'normative guidance'? [Hannes] Should just be 'guidance' but on the other hand an architecture do= cument shouldn't provide guidance. I guess we have to change the sentence altogether from " In general, this document provides normative guidance how to use, create or adopt network protocols that facilitate RATS. " To: " - Would it not make sense to also define the terms introduced in 1.1? - Claims - Evidence - Known-Good-Values - Endorsements - Attestation Results Perhaps section 1.1 should be folded into section 2 so that all terminology is defined in one place. What about terms such as - Attester - Verifier - Asserter - Relying Party - What are 'architectural constituents'? - Separation: A Computing Environment with the capability of remote attestation: o is separate from other Attested Computing Environments (about which attestation evidence is created), and Does it always have to be separate? Is there an architectural requirement for these to be separate? - If you read this document for the first time, it is difficult to put the various terms together in your head. Figure 1 helps but it comes a bit late, it would help if it would be shown early. It would have helped me if all key terms are defined upfront followed by a Figure explaining relationships or interactions before the discussion of details starts. - Not sure this helps me understand things: (e.g. Prinicipals that are Supply Chain Entities) - What are Appraisals? [...] Attestation Results are the output of appraisals. There is text in 3.3 about appraisals that I do not understand. If Attestation Results are the output of appraisals, then appraisals are some form of a function. I thought that the Verifier is creating appraisals based on the received Evidence and the received Endorsements and that leads to Attestation Results, i.e., in a functional writing style: Verifier :: Known-Good-Values -> Endorsements -> Evidence -> Attestation = Results This is also how I understand the definition of Verifier in 4.3.1. It seems appraisals are something internal to the logic of the Verifier, i.e., they may be produced by the logic of the Verifier but then the Attestation Results are really the output of the Verifier. - Evidence I understand that Evidence is a specific form of a claim. I am not sure, though, what exactly turns a claim into Evidence. o Evidence is provable Claims about a specific Computing Environment made by an Attester. What makes a claim a provable claim? Who is originating the claim and who is originating the Evidence? - Endorsements It is not clear to me yet what the difference between Endorsements and KGV really is. - Security Considerations RATS Evidence, Verifiable Assertions and Results SHOULD use formats ... Should that be RATS Evidence, Endorsements, Known-Good-Values, and Attestation Results SHOULD use formats ... to be consistent with terminology? The term 'Verifiable Assertions' shows up here the for the first time... [...] Nonce Claims often piggy- back other information and can convey attestation semantics that are of essence to RATS, e.g. the last four bytes of a challenge nonce could be replaced by the IPv4 address-value of the Attester in its response. Despite wondering whether this is a good thing or a bad thing, I wonder why this is in the security considerations of the architecture document. The architecture does not define how Nonce Claims look like, so why would it discuss specific issues about Nonce Claims? - Editorial s/capabile/capable/ Singular/plural confusion in the following? Likely, there are a set of Claims that is widely applicable across most, if not all environments. Conversely, there are Claims that are /js -- Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 _______________________________________________ RATS mailing list RATS@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in = any medium. Thank you. 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Wed, 2 Oct 2019 09:11:19 +0000 From: Hannes Tschofenig To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sch=F6nw=E4lder=2C_J=FCrgen?= , "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: comments on draft-birkholz-rats-architecture-02 Thread-Index: AQHVc6wLs8eXy3dKq0+sUkZ9OD7XJadHF0IggAAA+/A= Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 09:11:19 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20190925141802.5kvcriaysbuw5dhi@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ts-tracking-id: bb5d3c4b-baa8-4f18-ae90-9fa978df129c.1 x-checkrecipientchecked: true Authentication-Results-Original: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com; x-originating-ip: [80.92.116.217] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 26666ce7-8fd4-4657-4d05-08d747188080 X-MS-Office365-Filtering-HT: Tenant X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: VI1PR08MB3053:|AM5PR0801MB1954: X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: x-checkrecipientrouted: true x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000;OLM:10000; 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Below is another try: -----Original Message----- From: Hannes Tschofenig Sent: Mittwoch, 2. Oktober 2019 11:01 To: Sch=F6nw=E4lder, J=FCrgen ; rats@= ietf.org Subject: RE: comments on draft-birkholz-rats-architecture-02 Hi J=FCrgen, Thanks for your review. Looks of great questions. Below is my take on it. -----Original Message----- From: RATS On Behalf Of Sch=F6nw=E4lder, J=FCrgen Sent: Mittwoch, 25. September 2019 16:18 To: rats@ietf.org Subject: [Rats] comments on draft-birkholz-rats-architecture-02 Hi, I am rather new here to please forgive my ignorance. I thought I start by r= eading the architecture document. Some of my questions may just show my ign= orance but then this is what happens if you get fresh reads... - What is 'normative guidance'? [Hannes] Should just be 'guidance' but on the other hand an architecture do= cument shouldn't provide guidance. I guess we have to change the sentence altogether from " In general, this document provides normative guidance how to use, create or adopt network protocols that facilitate RATS. " To: " This document defines terminology and describes the architecture of the rem= ote attestation procedures (RATS) standardization work in the IETF. " - Would it not make sense to also define the terms introduced in 1.1? - Claims - Evidence - Known-Good-Values - Endorsements - Attestation Results Perhaps section 1.1 should be folded into section 2 so that all terminology is defined in one place. What about terms such as - Attester - Verifier - Asserter - Relying Party [Hannes] I agree with your observations. Section 1.1 should be merged with = Section 2 and these additional terms should be added. - What are 'architectural constituents'? [Hannes] Should be replaced with 'entities' - Separation: A Computing Environment with the capability of remote attestation: o is separate from other Attested Computing Environments (about which attestation evidence is created), and Does it always have to be separate? Is there an architectural requirement for these to be separate? [Hannes] A figure would help here. In the model we use at Arm with TrustZo= ne for v8-M the computing environment is separate from the attesting comput= ing environment. Since the term separate is not further elaborated I doubt there is a proble= m. - If you read this document for the first time, it is difficult to put the various terms together in your head. Figure 1 helps but it comes a bit late, it would help if it would be shown early. It would have helped me if all key terms are defined upfront followed by a Figure explaining relationships or interactions before the discussion of details starts. [Hannes] I have to agree with you. Maybe it helps to move Figure 1 up or to= re-arrange other sections. - Not sure this helps me understand things: (e.g. Prinicipals that are Supply Chain Entities) [Hannes] Maybe a complete example would help. - What are Appraisals? ~snip~ - Evidence ~snip~ - Endorsements ~snip~ [Hannes] If it makes you feel better I have also been wondering why the att= estation community uses so complex terms. I yet have to find out how to make it simpler (or how to describe it better= ). - Security Considerations RATS Evidence, Verifiable Assertions and Results SHOULD use formats ... Should that be RATS Evidence, Endorsements, Known-Good-Values, and Attestation Results SHOULD use formats ... to be consistent with terminology? The term 'Verifiable Assertions' shows up here the for the first time... [...] Nonce Claims often piggy- back other information and can convey attestation semantics that are of essence to RATS, e.g. the last four bytes of a challenge nonce could be replaced by the IPv4 address-value of the Attester in its response. Despite wondering whether this is a good thing or a bad thing, I wonder why this is in the security considerations of the architecture document. The architecture does not define how Nonce Claims look like, so why would it discuss specific issues about Nonce Claims? [Hannes] I completely agree with you. Thanks again for the great review. Ciao Hannes IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in = any medium. Thank you. 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Wed, 2 Oct 2019 09:52:13 +0000 From: "Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" To: "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: RATS Digest, Vol 17, Issue 4 Thread-Index: AQHVeQFoPDXXN3d+60GMkyP4Vm5bAKdHGYPI Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 09:52:13 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com; x-originating-ip: [109.240.172.143] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 3f9d607a-93ab-41d3-dfde-08d7471e339d x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: HE1PR0701MB2298: x-ms-exchange-purlcount: 1 x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508; x-forefront-prvs: 0178184651 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(4636009)(346002)(396003)(39860400002)(366004)(376002)(136003)(18543002)(10533003)(189003)(199004)(236005)(5640700003)(6116002)(9686003)(8936002)(6306002)(54896002)(74316002)(1730700003)(81166006)(105004)(52536014)(2501003)(81156014)(8676002)(64756008)(256004)(66556008)(66446008)(66476007)(14444005)(55016002)(76116006)(11346002)(5660300002)(476003)(486006)(33656002)(86362001)(446003)(66946007)(966005)(26005)(6246003)(478600001)(606006)(6506007)(229853002)(2351001)(186003)(53546011)(14454004)(71200400001)(6436002)(71190400001)(6916009)(25786009)(2906002)(76176011)(7696005)(102836004)(3846002)(7736002)(99286004)(19627405001)(316002)(66066001); 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable HI, I'm in agreement with Hannes regarding the structuring of the document and = how the division between the concepts and terminology is made. The terminology needs to be properly grouped together with the diagram bein= g almost the first thing presented such that a pictorial overview of the re= lationships and terms can be ascertained by the reader. It appears that som= e terms are also being introduced and defined in the concepts section which= I feel should be "less" formal. Section 3: Does the RATS architecture provide a framework for anticipating= trustworthyness changes? I'm not 100% clear what is meant by this line. Section 3.2: I wasn't sure if this is a definition of trustworthyness or a = statement about how the architecture established trustworthyness in a syste= m I'd rewrite this as below if the latter is the case: "The trustworhyness of the remote attestation environment is also (or shou= ld also) be taken into consideration and the RATS architecture addresses th= is" Are we also addressing the how aspect of this? Do we also need to address roots and chains of trust/trustworthyness? Figure 1 & RATS Roles If I take existing remote attestation systems then it appears to me that th= e role of Attester is extremely broad taking into consideration quite a lar= ge amount of RA implementation and also, to give a concrete example, a larg= e amount of the functioning of TPM 2.0, particularly the Quoting, PCR and S= igining mechanisms to my understanding of this. If this is the point then = I'm quite fine with that. (Sorry to use the TPM+RA example, but it is widespread and we do have a wor= king system that I'd like to be more compliant with this specification) t. Ian -- Dr. Ian Oliver Cybersecurity Research Distinguished Member of Technical Staff Nokia Bell Labs +358 50 483 6237 ________________________________ From: RATS on behalf of rats-request@ietf.org Sent: 02 October 2019 12:11 To: rats@ietf.org Subject: RATS Digest, Vol 17, Issue 4 Send RATS mailing list submissions to rats@ietf.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to rats-request@ietf.org You can reach the person managing the list at rats-owner@ietf.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of RATS digest..." --_000_HE1PR0701MB22674914B23AB5DD29405A2C8F9C0HE1PR0701MB2267_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    HI,

    I'm in agreement with Hannes regarding the structuring of the document and = how the division between the concepts and terminology is made.

    The terminology needs to be properly grouped together with the diagram bein= g almost the first thing presented such that a pictorial overview of the re= lationships and terms can be ascertained by the reader. It appears that som= e terms are also being introduced and defined in the concepts section which I feel should be "less"= ; formal.

    Section 3:  Does the RATS architecture provide a framework for anticip= ating trustworthyness changes? I'm not 100% clear what is meant by this lin= e.

    Section 3.2: I wasn't sure if this is a definition of trustworthyness or a = statement about how the architecture established trustworthyness in a syste= m I'd rewrite this as below if the latter is the case:

    "The trustworhyness of the remote attestation environment is  als= o (or should also) be taken into consideration and the RATS architecture ad= dresses this"

    Are we also addressing the how aspect of this?  

    Do we also need to address roots and chains of trust/trustworthyness?



    Figure 1 & RATS Roles

    If I take existing remote attestation systems then it appears to me that th= e role of Attester is extremely broad taking into consideration quite a lar= ge amount of RA implementation and also, to give a concrete example, a larg= e amount of the functioning of TPM 2.0, particularly the Quoting, PCR and Sigining mechanisms to my understan= ding of this.  If this is the point then I'm quite fine with that.

    (Sorry to use the TPM+RA example, but it is widespread and we do have a= working system that I'd like to be more compliant with this specification)=

    t.

    Ian




    --

    Dr. Ian Oliver

    Cybersecurity Research

    Distinguished Member of Technical Staff

    Nokia Bell Labs

    +358 50 483 6237

    From: RATS <rats-bounces= @ietf.org> on behalf of rats-request@ietf.org <rats-request@ietf.org&= gt;
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    --_000_HE1PR0701MB22674914B23AB5DD29405A2C8F9C0HE1PR0701MB2267_-- From nobody Wed Oct 2 02:59:51 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F02EE120857 for ; Wed, 2 Oct 2019 02:59:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NkI1OefZWCtC for ; Wed, 2 Oct 2019 02:59:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.72.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CE8891200B3 for ; Wed, 2 Oct 2019 02:59:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (mail.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.84.171]) by mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-10) with ESMTPS id x929xdxn000907 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT); Wed, 2 Oct 2019 11:59:40 +0200 Received: from [134.102.174.152] (134.102.174.152) by mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (141.12.84.171) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.468.0; Wed, 2 Oct 2019 11:59:34 +0200 To: Hannes Tschofenig , =?UTF-8?B?U2Now7Zud8OkbGRlciwgSsO8cmdlbg==?= , "rats@ietf.org" References: <20190925141802.5kvcriaysbuw5dhi@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> From: Henk Birkholz Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 11:59:34 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [134.102.174.152] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] comments on draft-birkholz-rats-architecture-02 X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2019 09:59:50 -0000 Hi Jürgen, hi Hannes, I'll add some of the reasoning to most of the items below: On 02.10.19 11:11, Hannes Tschofenig wrote: > Clicked the enter key accidentally and sent the mail far too early.... > > Below is another try: > > -----Original Message----- > From: Hannes Tschofenig > Sent: Mittwoch, 2. Oktober 2019 11:01 > To: Schönwälder, Jürgen ; rats@ietf.org > Subject: RE: comments on draft-birkholz-rats-architecture-02 > > Hi Jürgen, > > Thanks for your review. Looks of great questions. > Below is my take on it. > > -----Original Message----- > From: RATS On Behalf Of Schönwälder, Jürgen > Sent: Mittwoch, 25. September 2019 16:18 > To: rats@ietf.org > Subject: [Rats] comments on draft-birkholz-rats-architecture-02 > > Hi, > > I am rather new here to please forgive my ignorance. I thought I start by reading the architecture document. Some of my questions may just show my ignorance but then this is what happens if you get fresh reads... > > - What is 'normative guidance'? > > [Hannes] Should just be 'guidance' but on the other hand an architecture document shouldn't provide guidance. > I guess we have to change the sentence altogether from " > In general, this document > provides normative guidance how to use, create or adopt network > protocols that facilitate RATS. > " > To: > > " > This document defines terminology and describes the architecture of the remote attestation procedures (RATS) standardization work in the IETF. Thank you Hannes - the new phrasing is more to the point. The higher level goal is of course to enable readers to build complete remote attestation procedures that are composed out of Princapls that are composed of... and so on. That's not a good start for the text though, especially as we tried to serialized the definitions in an order that was simpler to understand than before. In general, a bit more redundancy to that respect does not hurt, I think. See next point. > " > > - Would it not make sense to also define the terms introduced in 1.1? > > - Claims > - Evidence > - Known-Good-Values > - Endorsements > - Attestation Results > > Perhaps section 1.1 should be folded into section 2 so that all > terminology is defined in one place. What about terms such as > > - Attester > - Verifier > - Asserter > - Relying Party > > [Hannes] I agree with your observations. Section 1.1 should be merged with Section 2 and these additional terms should be added. The intent of 1.1 is... well to give a quick overview. Merging it with section 2 would shift that meaning and would render it to be just a terminology definition. Actually, we thought we were providing a concise definition in 1.1 beforehand (detailed definitions are in section 4), but the goal is to address new readers, such as you, and that apparently did not work out so well :) So we will have to have another stab at this. Is it a good approach to define RATS messages (the first block you highlighted) not only in the section RATS Messages (4.3.2) but in a terminology section, too? I am uncertain how much redundancy is useful. Jürgen, would that have helped? > > - What are 'architectural constituents'? > > [Hannes] Should be replaced with 'entities' There were always multiple opinions about this. Maybe defining architectural constituents would be better? What we meant here are the instantiated architectural components that make entities a part of a RATS architecture, i.e. messages/interactions, roles and principals - which explicitly do not include e.g. persons or organizations. > > > - Separation: > > A Computing Environment with the capability of remote attestation: > > o is separate from other Attested Computing Environments (about > which attestation evidence is created), and > > Does it always have to be separate? Is there an architectural > requirement for these to be separate? > > [Hannes] A figure would help here. In the model we use at Arm with TrustZone for v8-M the computing environment is separate from the attesting computing environment. > Since the term separate is not further elaborated I doubt there is a problem. Yes, a figure would have helped and will help in the future. > > - If you read this document for the first time, it is difficult to put > the various terms together in your head. Figure 1 helps but it comes > a bit late, it would help if it would be shown early. It would have > helped me if all key terms are defined upfront followed by a Figure > explaining relationships or interactions before the discussion of > details starts. > > [Hannes] I have to agree with you. Maybe it helps to move Figure 1 up or to re-arrange other sections. Okay - the question is, where to put it. Probably in the overview section 1.1? > > > - Not sure this helps me understand things: > > (e.g. Prinicipals that are Supply Chain Entities) > > [Hannes] Maybe a complete example would help. Yes, there is the > > - What are Appraisals? Appraisal is the activity (function) that a Verifier conducts. We had a clearer definition of Creation of Evidence (via the Attester) , Conveyance of Evidence (via an Interaction), and Appraisal of Evidence (via a Verifier) in the last version. Due to the refactoring that got lost too much, as I see now. Maybe reintroducing that in the overview will help, too? > - Evidence A RATS message defined in 4.3.2 > - Endorsements Also a RATS message defined in 4.3.2 > > [Hannes] If it makes you feel better I have also been wondering why the attestation community uses so complex terms. > I yet have to find out how to make it simpler (or how to describe it better). Correct terminology is quite of the essence here as, for example, sets of claims and sets of evidence are messages with different meaning. Simplification (or better... abstraction) is the thing we did the most in since the BoF. I am rather certain that we cannot simplify without losing meaning, currently. But we most certainly can work on the description part. > > - Security Considerations > > RATS Evidence, Verifiable Assertions and Results SHOULD use formats > ... > > Should that be > > RATS Evidence, Endorsements, Known-Good-Values, and Attestation > Results SHOULD use formats ... > > to be consistent with terminology? The term 'Verifiable Assertions' > shows up here the for the first time... Yes, that is an oversight. Your text is correct. Which is good, because that means the text at least it was consistent until here and enabled you to find that artifact :) Thx! > > [...] Nonce Claims often piggy- > back other information and can convey attestation semantics that are > of essence to RATS, e.g. the last four bytes of a challenge nonce > could be replaced by the IPv4 address-value of the Attester in its > response. > > Despite wondering whether this is a good thing or a bad thing, I > wonder why this is in the security considerations of the > architecture document. The architecture does not define how Nonce > Claims look like, so why would it discuss specific issues about > Nonce Claims? > > [Hannes] I completely agree with you. Good point, we will move it to the Interaction Model I-D (which is in churn right now, moving from one Model to potentially four models). > > > Thanks again for the great review. Dito! Vielen Dank! Henk > > Ciao > Hannes > > IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you. > > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > From nobody Wed Oct 2 04:14:46 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E1BC120044 for ; Wed, 2 Oct 2019 04:14:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Flek7ikqblmZ for ; Wed, 2 Oct 2019 04:14:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.72.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 288AF12000F for ; Wed, 2 Oct 2019 04:14:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (mail.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.84.171]) by mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-10) with ESMTPS id x92BEYNh005121 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT); Wed, 2 Oct 2019 13:14:35 +0200 Received: from [192.168.178.8] (134.102.43.219) by mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (141.12.84.171) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.468.0; Wed, 2 Oct 2019 13:14:29 +0200 To: "Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" , "rats@ietf.org" References: From: Henk Birkholz Message-ID: <3ab45d4d-eb44-0c55-98b6-8167f694714b@sit.fraunhofer.de> Date: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 13:14:28 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [134.102.43.219] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] RATS Digest, Vol 17, Issue 4 X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Oct 2019 11:14:43 -0000 Hi Ian, as you 2nd Hannes comment & we also successfully confused Jrgen with it, I think we have to address this structure issue soon. Please find preliminary proposals and comments in-line: On 02.10.19 11:52, Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) wrote: > HI, > > I'm in agreement with Hannes regarding the structuring of the document > and how the division between the concepts and terminology is made. > > The terminology needs to be properly grouped together with the diagram > being almost the first thing presented such that a pictorial overview of > the relationships and terms can be ascertained by the reader. It appears > that some terms are also being introduced and defined in the concepts > section which I feel should be "less" formal. If we would define the architectural constituents (and that term itself... I know) in the Terminology section that would pull a lot of content out of section 4. Let's assume that leaves enough intact text for now. We would retain the "in-a-nutshell" section and reintroduce Creation, Conveyance, and Appraisal of Evidence there. That should be enough to understand Figure 1 that complements that section, too. Then - all terms and architectural constituents (which of course are named and therefore are terms...) go into section 2. Does that sound sensible to you? > > Section 3: Does the RATS architecture provide a framework for > anticipating trustworthyness changes? I'm not 100% clear what is meant > by this line. Yes - in general. But currently, the text is weak on elaborating on that. State transition will become its own section, I think. > > Section 3.2: I wasn't sure if this is a definition of trustworthyness or > a statement about how the architecture established trustworthyness in a > system I'd rewrite this as below if the latter is the case: > > "The trustworhyness of the remote attestation environment is also (or > should also) be taken into consideration and the RATS architecture > addresses this" Will add trustworthiness to the terminology section :) Also, section 3.2 is too concise, I think. Being actually trustworthy and then the trustworthiness of RATS "capabilities" (e.g. the creation of evidence) are subtly different things. For both the following statement is true: "Ultimately, a portion of a computing environments trustworthiness is established via non-automated means. " > > Are we also addressing the how aspect of this? Yes - created Evidence is very often (but not exclusively) about the trustworthiness of an Attester. Created Evidence must always be trustworthy, though (coming back to the subtle differences hinted at above). > > Do we also need to address roots and chains of trust/trustworthyness? I think so. Not everybody thinks so :) The current compromise that has the best consensus is to refrain requiring roots of trusts in the body of the document, but elaborating about these core components in an appendix. Maybe it is warranted to address them in a section in the body, but for now we are composing a corresponding appendix. > > > > Figure 1 & RATS Roles > > If I take existing remote attestation systems then it appears to me that > the role of Attester is extremely broad taking into consideration quite > a large amount of RA implementation and also, to give a concrete > example, a large amount of the functioning of TPM 2.0, particularly the > Quoting, PCR and Sigining mechanisms to my understanding of this. If > this is the point then I'm quite fine with that. Yes, it is rather broad. But that is okay because we want to be inclusive wrt existing solutions and to be able to create a unified vocabulary/terminology for semantic interoperability between solutions. Also, we are in the process of adding more complex compositions than the very simplified Figure 1. Most prominently the compositions presented by Dave. > > (Sorry to use the TPM+RA example, but it is widespread and we do have a > working system that I'd like to be more compliant with this specification) > > t. > > Ian > > Viele Gre, Henk > > > -- > > Dr. Ian Oliver > > Cybersecurity Research > > Distinguished Member of Technical Staff > > Nokia Bell Labs > > +358 50 483 6237 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* RATS on behalf of rats-request@ietf.org > > *Sent:* 02 October 2019 12:11 > *To:* rats@ietf.org > *Subject:* RATS Digest, Vol 17, Issue 4 > Send RATS mailing list submissions to > rats@ietf.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > rats-request@ietf.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > rats-owner@ietf.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of RATS digest..." > > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > From nobody Thu Oct 3 03:35:00 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52CAA120091; 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Thu, 3 Oct 2019 10:34:36 +0000 From: Hannes Tschofenig To: "suit@ietf.org" , teep , "rats@ietf.org" CC: Matthias Waehlisch Thread-Topic: Tutorial & Hackathon Thread-Index: AdV5yfWkR82tX0RYQv6HsjtKeCsBcQ== Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 10:34:35 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ts-tracking-id: abea350e-6bbd-44db-a39f-b0ba0e532c9c.0 x-checkrecipientchecked: true Authentication-Results-Original: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com; x-originating-ip: [195.149.223.101] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: c0bf8a27-768a-42a3-4412-08d747ed4d8b X-MS-Office365-Filtering-HT: Tenant X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: VI1PR08MB5325:|DB6PR08MB2839: X-MS-Exchange-PUrlCount: 1 X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: x-checkrecipientrouted: true x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:7691;OLM:7691; x-forefront-prvs: 01792087B6 X-Forefront-Antispam-Report-Untrusted: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009020)(4636009)(396003)(136003)(346002)(39850400004)(376002)(366004)(53754006)(199004)(189003)(4744005)(66946007)(86362001)(5660300002)(6436002)(966005)(99286004)(14454004)(25786009)(8936002)(71190400001)(71200400001)(4326008)(33656002)(256004)(26005)(478600001)(9686003)(606006)(236005)(476003)(486006)(55016002)(7696005)(54896002)(790700001)(186003)(6506007)(6306002)(102836004)(66066001)(6116002)(3846002)(52536014)(8676002)(74316002)(81156014)(81166006)(7736002)(66556008)(66476007)(66446008)(64756008)(2501003)(2906002)(316002)(76116006)(110136005); 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Ip=[63.35.35.123]; Helo=[64aa7808-outbound-1.mta.getcheckrecipient.com] X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: HybridOnPrem X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB6PR08MB2839 Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] Tutorial & Hackathon X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2019 10:34:52 -0000 --_000_VI1PR08MB53602F862999DB38318E55E9FA9F0VI1PR08MB5360eurp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, Based on feedback and room availability we have setup a Doodle poll with tw= o dates for the combined tutorial/hackathon event in February 2020 covering= topics of SUIT, TEEP and RATS. As mentioned earlier, the venue is in Berlin (Wilhelmstra=DFe 67, to be mor= e precisely). Here is the poll: https://doodle.com/poll/2sbd6v6h3wzah39u Please respond as soon as possible. Ciao Hannes & Matthias IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in = any medium. Thank you. --_000_VI1PR08MB53602F862999DB38318E55E9FA9F0VI1PR08MB5360eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Hi all,

     

    Based on feedback and room availability we have setu= p a Doodle poll with two dates for the combined tutorial/hackathon event in= February 2020 covering topics of SUIT, TEEP and RATS.

    As mentioned earlier, the venue is in Berlin (Wil= helmstra=DFe 67, to be more precisely).

     

    Here is the poll:

    https://doodle.com/poll/2sbd6v6h3wzah39u

     

    Please respond as soon as possible.

     

    Ciao

    Hannes & Matthias

     

    IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you. --_000_VI1PR08MB53602F862999DB38318E55E9FA9F0VI1PR08MB5360eurp_-- From nobody Thu Oct 3 11:21:42 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFAA71200E6 for ; Thu, 3 Oct 2019 11:21:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.435 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.435 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_SBL_CSS=3.335, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vLthd6N-_B1C for ; Thu, 3 Oct 2019 11:21:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [IPv6:2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:de77]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 64EAB1200DB for ; Thu, 3 Oct 2019 11:21:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (unknown [142.169.78.79]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A92C71F47B for ; Thu, 3 Oct 2019 18:21:33 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id E421C54D4; Thu, 3 Oct 2019 19:22:17 +0100 (WEST) From: Michael Richardson To: rats@ietf.org X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2019 14:22:17 -0400 Message-ID: <14767.1570126937@dooku.sandelman.ca> Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] ETSI Specification group on Securing Artificial Intelligence X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2019 18:21:40 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable {via a circuitous path, this came to me. There have been use cases proposed for TEEP and RATS that relate to protecting Machine Learning algorithms. I'm wondering if there are any liasons to this ETSI ISG which might want to more clearly articulate the RAGTS use case} =2D--- ETSI announce the creation of a new Industry Specification Group on=20 Securing Artificial Intelligence (ISG SAI). The group will develop=20 technical specifications to mitigate threats arising from the deployment=20 of AI throughout multiple ICT-related industries. This includes threats=20 to artificial intelligence systems from both conventional sources and=20 other AIs. The ETSI Securing Artificial Intelligence group was initiated to=20 anticipate that autonomous mechanical and computing entities may make=20 decisions that act against the relying parties either by design or as a=20 result of malicious intent. The conventional cycle of networks risk=20 analysis and countermeasure deployment represented by the=20 Identify-Protect-Detect-Respond cycle needs to be re-assessed when an=20 autonomous machine is involved. The intent of the ISG SAI is therefore to address 3 aspects of=20 artificial intelligence in the standards domain: * =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Securing AI from attack e.g. where AI is a componen= t in the system that needs defending * =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Mitigating against AI e.g. where AI is the =E2=80= =98problem=E2=80=99 or is used to improve and enhance other more conventional attack vectors * =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Using AI to enhance security measures against attac= k from other things e.g. AI is part of the =E2=80=98solution=E2=80=99 or is used to = improve and enhance more conventional countermeasures. The purpose of the ETSI ISG SAI is to develop the technical knowledge=20 that acts as a baseline in ensuring that artificial intelligence is=20 secure. Stakeholders impacted by the activity of ETSI=E2=80=99s group inclu= de=20 end users, manufacturers, operators and governments. Three main activities will be undertaken and confirmed during the first=20 meeting of the group. 1) *AI Threat Ontology *Currently, there is no common understanding of what= =20 constitutes an attack on AI and how it might be created, hosted and=20 propagated. The work to be undertaken here will seek to define what=20 would be considered an AI threat and how it might differ from threats to=20 traditional systems. Hence, the AI Threat Ontology specification seeks to align terminology=20 across the different stakeholders and multiple industries. ETSI=20 specifications will define what is meant by these terms in the context=20 of cyber and physical security and with a narrative that should be=20 readily accessible to all. This threat ontology will address AI as=20 system, attacker and defence. 2) *Securing AI Problem Statement *This specification will be modelled on=20 the ETSI GS NFV-SEC 001 =E2=80=9CSecurity Problem Statement=E2=80=9D which = has been=20 highly influential in guiding the scope of ETSI NFV and enabling=20 =E2=80=9Csecurity by design=E2=80=9D for NFV infrastructures. It will defin= e and=20 prioritize potential AI threats along with recommended actions. The=20 recommendations contained in this specification will be used to define=20 the scope and timescales for the follow-up work. 3) *Data Supply Chain Report *Data is a critical component in the=20 development of AI systems, both raw data, and information and feedback=20 From=20other AI systems and humans in the loop. However, access to=20 suitable data is often limited, causing a need to resort to less=20 suitable sources of data. Compromising the integrity of data has been=20 demonstrated to be a viable attack vector against an AI system. This report will summarize the methods currently used to source data for=20 training AI, along with a review of existing initiatives for developing=20 data sharing protocols and analyse requirements for standards for=20 ensuring integrity in the shared data, information and feedback, as well=20 as the confidentiality of these. The founding members of the new ETSI group include BT, Cadzow=20 Communications, Huawei Technologies, NCSC and Telef=C3=B3nica. The first meeting of ISG SAI will be held in Sophia Antipolis on 23=20 October. Come and join to shape the future path for secure artificial=20 intelligence! *Contact *Claire Boyer Mob: +33 (0)6 87 60 84 40 Email: claire.boyer@etsi.org =2D------- Weitergeleitete Nachricht -------- Betreff: [ISG_SAI] Press release: ETSI launches specification group on=20 Securing Artificial Intelligence Datum: Wed, 2 Oct 2019 08:47:01 +0000 Von: Sonia Compans Antwort an: ISG_SAI Securing Artificial Intelligence=20 An: ISG_SAI@LIST.ETSI.ORG Dear SAI, We launched the press release announcing the ISG creation. Do not hesitate to forward https://www.etsi.org/newsroom/press-releases/1650-2019-10-etsi-launches-spe= cification-group-on-securing-artificial-intelligence Sonia *Sonia Compans****=E2=80=93*Technical Officer *ETSI*=E2=97=8F www.etsi.org =E2=97=8F_sonia.compans= @etsi.org=20 _ Phone: +33 (0)4 92 94 43 36 =E2=97=8FMobile: +33 (0)6 67 15 58 49 Watch the new ETSI video _Cybersecurity: join the players=20 _ ** ** This email may contain confidential information and is intended for the=20 use of the addressee only. Any unauthorized use may be unlawful. If you=20 receive this email by mistake, please advise the sender immediately by=20 using the reply facility in your email software. Thank you for your=20 co-operation.** --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEERK+9HEcJHTJ9UqTMlUzhVv38QpAFAl2WPFkACgkQlUzhVv38 QpCbfwgAiEyhuF3IaTeovl39/oz4kkD5I57BvS9EcNvj1wOeo7qY4znPzoJrWcuP zve8d6L9l/7T13kFPk7pp6q42WAziBQL4NtZmQB8aueorRYtfFZZiBpQ03jkGlg9 cBvlhTFCWTK6/Ez5m8lluBSITtIyBacmEDIqkW2A8f97jd0PJcRfuAgtu5dG2MJF KJfHh8BCMLFbB0NjZJEGOSopBSUx4KsaauwUvXrWmK/OGXXwi/H5farif7XuVRDg mR5/iUjL8fd6lI0mE+3s8D3/OI4c1i7KM4Hqx2fZiXLqGgkhLusCBJdh5asPhCH+ b6z7Dm2DEvJeVn/KYAf4TN8rypTXEQ== =PRzT -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Thu Oct 3 13:06:52 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B61C112021D for ; Thu, 3 Oct 2019 13:06:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DEDBpbrsJ9vl for ; Thu, 3 Oct 2019 13:06:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p3plsmtpa11-01.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa11-01.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [68.178.252.102]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C658B1200BA for ; Thu, 3 Oct 2019 13:06:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.76] ([76.167.193.86]) by :SMTPAUTH: with ESMTPA id G7N9ibdqL5BHHG7NAi65YK; Thu, 03 Oct 2019 13:06:49 -0700 From: Laurence Lundblade Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_E64A9816-9FFF-44D2-8F9B-087D2981778B" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Message-Id: <27FA739D-A3DA-4A69-BE21-D7AE0503948A@island-resort.com> Date: Thu, 3 Oct 2019 13:06:47 -0700 To: rats@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfHwb0bNIWzPaWIYEDRFKH1vbr+bSK5Dz2odKAPkAPwayycbTwK6APxvH6c0y8q3vWPPl3118uqLbRl3dTLHD9hq9OOtCk8HVZPT6XTKI25TaMdjmIBd8 HODniuSHdeJ+TfkMlCnEGmOah8CpnzCK1+lShaUF2bRvNGJGkCE2tD/v Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] Comments on draft-birkholz-rats-architecture-02 X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Oct 2019 20:06:52 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_E64A9816-9FFF-44D2-8F9B-087D2981778B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 1 Introduction However, threats to the endpoint [RFC5209] and system components = [RFC4949] of transited communication gear (i.e. hosts) are increasingly = relevant for assessing the trustworthiness properties of a = communication channel. I don=E2=80=99t think RATS is directly relevant to trustworthiness of = communication channels. Communication channels should not be mentioned. The use of =E2=80=9Ctransited=E2=80=9D is not very clear here. It sounds = like the communication gear is moving through something when I think you = mean data moving through communication gear. But more importantly, = we=E2=80=99re not trying to allow the relying party to assess the = trustworthiness of routers some communication passed through, so this = seems wrong. (We are trying to allow the owner / operator of routers to = assess the status of their communication gear, but that is different and = doesn=E2=80=99t involve any transiting). Generally through out document, use of terms =E2=80=9Centity=E2=80=9D, = =E2=80=9Chost=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Csystem component=E2=80=9D=E2=80=A6 Claims and evidence are about a particular subject. EAT uses the term = =E2=80=9Centity=E2=80=9D for that. There is not consistency in this = document on that yet. Looks to me like =E2=80=9Chost=E2=80=9D, = =E2=80=9Centity=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Csystem component=E2=80=9D, = =E2=80=9Ccomputing environment=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Cremove system = components=E2=80=9D, and =E2=80=9Cendpoint" are all used to refer to the = subject of the attestation at one time or another. 2. Terminology definition of =E2=80=9Centity=E2=80=9D This document is using the term =E2=80=9Centity=E2=80=9D to refer to = more than just the subject of the attestation, involving it with = =E2=80=9Cprinciple=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Crole=E2=80=9D. I would prefer = that =E2=80=9Centity=E2=80=9D just be the subject of the attestation. = That is the way EAT uses it. No matter how we factor or would word we use, I think we must have a = term that solely and clearly names to the subject of the attestation. To be clear, I believe RATS/EAT is always about trustworthiness of = device, HW and/or SW. It is about an implementation of something. It = never about trustworthiness of an organization or a person. 4.3.1 on Relying Party I would say the RP is providing some service or allowing access to some = data. They are really the end consumer of all of this. They want it so = they know whether to deliver the service or not and if they deliver, how = much to deliver. For example, how large a payment to allow if it is = allowed at all, or which documents or content the entity is allowed to = access if at all. 3.3 and 3.4 Information model Interoperability between RATS I suggest we do not discuss information model or interoperability in = this document. In order to do justice to the topic of interoperability, = it would have to go into CBOR/JSON/COSE/JOSE, how crypto algorithms are = agreed upon, how keys are distributed and quite a lot more. Profile = documents would have to be discussed too. Remove information model from 4.1 too. Absent =E2=80=94 out of band trust establishment As we know, somehow the Verifier has to obtain the public keys to verify = signatures. That is a critical step to make the system work. Readers = need to understand this, so it needs to be in this document. 4.3.2 on Known-Good-Values They can also typically be HW Versions and SW versions. In the TEE = world, these can be reported safely and securely. It would be better to say they are =E2=80=9Cintegrity protected=E2=80=9D = rather than =E2=80=9Csigned=E2=80=9D. They might get to the verifier by = TLS. Absent =E2=80=94 Discussion on use of Evidence without KGV A few sentences about the RP evaluating evidence against other than KGV = seems needed. For example, evidence may go into a machine-learning based = risk engine that learns ro correlate certain evidence values with known = fraud. Or, the evidence may be compared to typically user behavior, such = as the geographic location of payments.=20= --Apple-Mail=_E64A9816-9FFF-44D2-8F9B-087D2981778B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 1 Introduction
    However, = threats to the endpoint [RFC5209] and system components [RFC4949] = of transited communication gear (i.e.  hosts) are increasingly = relevant for assessing the trustworthiness  properties of a = communication channel.

    I don=E2=80=99t think RATS is = directly relevant to trustworthiness of communication channels. = Communication channels should not be mentioned.

    The use of =E2=80=9Ctransited=E2=80=9D = is not very clear here. It sounds like the communication gear is moving = through something when I think you mean data moving through = communication gear. But more importantly, we=E2=80=99re not trying to = allow the relying party to assess the trustworthiness of routers some = communication passed through, so this seems wrong.  (We are trying = to allow the owner / operator of routers to assess the status of their = communication gear, but that is different and doesn=E2=80=99t involve = any transiting).


    Generally through out document, use of terms =E2=80=9Centity=E2= =80=9D, =E2=80=9Chost=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Csystem = component=E2=80=9D=E2=80=A6
    Claims and = evidence are about a particular subject. EAT uses the term =E2=80=9Centity= =E2=80=9D for that. There is not consistency in this document on that = yet. Looks to me like =E2=80=9Chost=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Centity=E2=80=9D, = =E2=80=9Csystem component=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Ccomputing environment=E2=80=9D= , =E2=80=9Cremove system components=E2=80=9D, and =E2=80=9Cendpoint" are = all used to refer to the subject of the attestation at one time or = another.


    2. = Terminology definition of =E2=80=9Centity=E2=80=9D
    This document is using the term =E2=80=9Centity=E2=80=9D to = refer to more than just the subject of the attestation, involving it = with =E2=80=9Cprinciple=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Crole=E2=80=9D. I would = prefer that =E2=80=9Centity=E2=80=9D just be the subject of the = attestation. That is the way EAT uses it.

    No matter how we factor or would word = we use, I think we must have a term that solely and clearly names to the = subject of the attestation.

    To be clear, I believe RATS/EAT is always about = trustworthiness of device, HW and/or SW. It is about an implementation = of something. It never about trustworthiness of an organization or a = person.


    4.3.1 on Relying Party
    I would = say the RP is providing some service or allowing access to some data. = They are really the end consumer of all of this. They want it so they = know whether to deliver the service or not and if they deliver, how much = to deliver. For example, how large a payment to allow if it is allowed = at all, or which documents or content the entity is allowed to access if = at all.


    3.3 and 3.4 Information model Interoperability between = RATS
    I suggest we do not discuss = information model or interoperability in this document. In order to do = justice to the topic of interoperability, it would have to go into = CBOR/JSON/COSE/JOSE, how crypto algorithms are agreed upon, how keys are = distributed and quite a lot more. Profile documents would have to be = discussed too.

    Remove information model from 4.1 too.

    Absent =E2=80=94 out of band trust = establishment
    As we know, somehow the = Verifier has to obtain the public keys to verify signatures. That is a = critical step to make the system work. Readers need to understand this, = so it needs to be in this document.


    4.3.2 on Known-Good-Values
    They can also typically be HW Versions and SW versions. In = the TEE world, these can be reported safely and securely.

    It would be better to = say they are =E2=80=9Cintegrity protected=E2=80=9D rather than = =E2=80=9Csigned=E2=80=9D. They might get to the verifier by = TLS.


    Absent =E2=80= =94 Discussion on use of Evidence without KGV
    A few sentences about the RP evaluating evidence against = other than KGV seems needed. For example, evidence may go into a = machine-learning based risk engine that learns ro correlate certain = evidence values with known fraud. Or, the evidence may be compared to = typically user behavior, such as the geographic location of = payments. 
    = --Apple-Mail=_E64A9816-9FFF-44D2-8F9B-087D2981778B-- From nobody Fri Oct 4 10:56:44 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B839912095E for ; Fri, 4 Oct 2019 10:56:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OJo9cWhQ9e8H for ; Fri, 4 Oct 2019 10:56:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mga12.intel.com (mga12.intel.com [192.55.52.136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9FB33120902 for 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X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.1d.0.190908 x-originating-ip: [10.24.10.171] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_E4998B54DD7246BA802238F95F46021Aintelcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] [ietf-rats-wg/eat] Definition and usage of the term 'entity' (#16) X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2019 17:56:42 -0000 --_000_E4998B54DD7246BA802238F95F46021Aintelcom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 VGhlIGFyY2hpdGVjdHVyZSBkZWZpbmVzOg0KDQogICogICBFbnRpdHk6ICBhIHVzZXIsIG9yZ2Fu aXphdGlvbiwgZGV2aWNlIG9yIGNvbXB1dGluZyBlbnZpcm9ubWVudC4NCiAgKiAgIFByaW5jaXBh bDogIGFuIEVudGl0eSB0aGF0IGltcGxlbWVudHMgUkFUUyBSb2xlcyBhbmQgY3JlYXRlcyBwcm92 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required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OVQyum1RJL-M for ; Fri, 4 Oct 2019 12:17:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-x32f.google.com (mail-ot1-x32f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::32f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 33AB4120025 for ; Fri, 4 Oct 2019 12:17:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-x32f.google.com with SMTP id c10so6199826otd.9 for ; Fri, 04 Oct 2019 12:17:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=f/ngCb88aJbl/SW/LlBk0+Ba3CQ5684bqbBAXuKR1FA=; b=UCBr5zIcWTScnKpGZsP+TI9K00ypaMvnaYK9Z21S0/nHMC6ocgFQTGSx7B2Dh+xTlY 6b2TS8ToUxO6pMKRxHtx/R33Kz5uwwHZm1kFPHuR+Uae49iXfRaSYfB0ScSxl9bHFLng lZm4Z+sKM0N/520SZsqU1AIPZa/eZRL4CQyhI9ppuqWranHf9zLrJqkwBh3xlqrkEl67 krW9jotksFlOnIgrnobbmgbM+JpgvarXhD9qZtRC5PhgBCAbuRBHQVum7vTI3y96Frss vnXk0TvjU3XYu9L42OCeeHi6zINkSfYB5R9X/GLl62QfdQHpCsqjHuRinV7tn40zrPv2 nbPg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=f/ngCb88aJbl/SW/LlBk0+Ba3CQ5684bqbBAXuKR1FA=; b=CuQp6X4kssnK9HWqQ4pRhRtXQQH2FA7rB2GBsQBjeguNEh3duKAgod08gqnY7WqDFf /6dqMDAg22+wvSkVcvoUyKa1jqS7kqbjb30BY4VuUlW0tEPtn7LSiARZ1IFWL+YpigFi zHNDYvfUOtS/D78GzTG3ej1Bun+x0ue+fuEw/d8HeY7y21kvGKWAjcPIZp/CPPrgdASu UctfMatJUD1Mp/12GljtIA/crv62pC9mPieMVXZ7aesSPqh2ysqCZuK9NbyzTZNlAq1v 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X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2019 19:17:08 -0000 --000000000000205a4905941a8c75 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Oct 4, 2019 at 1:56 PM Smith, Ned wrote: > The architecture defines: > > - Entity: a user, organization, device or computing environment. > - Principal: an Entity that implements RATS Roles and creates > provable Claims or Attestation Results (see [ABLP] and [Lampson2007]). > - Attesting Computing Environment: a Computing Environment capable of > monitoring and attesting a target Computing Environment. > - Attested Computing Environment: a target Computing Environment that > is monitored and attested by an Attesting Computing Environment. > > > > The attested computing environment is the subject of attestation which > clearly is creating provable claims. > > > > The =E2=80=98attested=E2=80=99 environment may be less clearly a Principa= l. At one point > the list suggested the architecture should define a term =E2=80=9Ctarget = of > attestation=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cattestation target=E2=80=9D (or somethin= g similar). The term > =E2=80=9Cattested computing environment=E2=80=9D seems close to this. Do = we think the > attested environment is semantically the same as =E2=80=9Csubject of the > attestation=E2=80=9D? > > > > Using Lampson=E2=80=99s definition of Principal, an expression of attribu= tes (aka > claims) is itself a principal. > > > > There are lots of cases where =E2=80=98entity=E2=80=99 is used to refer t= o organizations > and users (see https://csrc.nist.gov/glossary/term/entity ). Given the > broad use of the term to mean: a =E2=80=9Cuser, organization, device or p= rocess=E2=80=9D it > might not make sense for RATs to change its scope. The RATS Arch used the > term =E2=80=9Ccomputing environment=E2=80=9D instead of process because n= ot every computing > environment has an operating system. > > > > An =E2=80=9Cattested computing environment=E2=80=9D is clearly intended t= o be a =E2=80=9Ccomputing > environment=E2=80=9D and hence is an Entity according to the arch draft. > And from a review of the EAT draft (again), I am reading this as the attestation based on the installed code with the attestation performed at boot to match what was installed. This would verify that the code was what the system administrator installed and configured. As opposed to code being attested by the creator, which might be done with the same format, but would assure the code was as he creator expected. I'm asking about this clarification in light of supply chain and the flow document: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attesta= tion/?include_text=3D1 Does the supply chain use case hold in these definitions or is there some reason why we might not care about attestations on code from the originator that might include code it relies upon when chained attestations are considered? This would expand out the definition of entity as well. > > If the EAT draft=E2=80=99s use of entity is semantically equal to the arc= hitecture > draft use of =E2=80=9Cattested computing environment=E2=80=9D then possib= ly it makes sense > for the EAT draft to begin using this term instead? > > > > The architecture draft potentially could be more clear as to whether an > =E2=80=9CAttested computing environment=E2=80=9D is both an entity and a = principal or just > an entity. It seems clear that an =E2=80=9Cattesting computing environmen= t=E2=80=9D is a > Principal. > Is EAT limited to 'attested computing environments' or a broader definition of entity? Kathleen > > Ned > > > > On 10/4/19, 10:27 AM, "Laurence Lundblade" > wrote: > > > > EAT and Architecture are absolutely NOT aligned on the term entity. See m= y > recent email comments on the architecture document. > > My basis for closure is that the architecture document will define some > term that is the is used to refer to the subject of the attestation. Mayb= e > we shouldn't close this until the architecture doc starts tracking issues > formally. > > =E2=80=94 > You are receiving this because you commented. > Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub > , > or mute the thread > > . > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > --=20 Best regards, Kathleen --000000000000205a4905941a8c75 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


    =
    On Fri, Oct 4, 2019 at 1:56 PM Smith,= Ned <ned.smith@intel.com>= wrote:

    The architecture defines:

    • Entity:=C2=A0 a user, organization, device or computing environme= nt.
    • Principal:=C2=A0 an Entity that implements = RATS Roles and creates provable Claims or Attestation Results (see [ABLP] a= nd [Lampson2007]).
    • Attesting Computing Environm= ent:=C2=A0 a Computing Environment capable of monitoring and attesting a ta= rget Computing Environment.
    • Attested Computing = Environment:=C2=A0 a target Computing Environment that is monitored and att= ested by an Attesting Computing Environment.

    =C2=A0

    The attested computing environment is the subject of= attestation which clearly is creating provable claims.

    =C2=A0

    The =E2=80=98attested=E2=80=99 environment may be le= ss clearly a Principal. At one point the list suggested the architecture sh= ould define a term =E2=80=9Ctarget of attestation=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Catte= station target=E2=80=9D (or something similar). The term =E2=80=9Cattested = computing environment=E2=80=9D seems close to this. Do we think the attested environment is semantically = the same as =E2=80=9Csubject of the attestation=E2=80=9D?

    =C2=A0

    Using Lampson=E2=80=99s definition of Principal, an = expression of attributes (aka claims) is itself a principal.

    =C2=A0

    There are lots of cases where =E2=80=98entity=E2=80= =99 is used to refer to organizations and users (see ht= tps://csrc.nist.gov/glossary/term/entity ). Given the broad use of the = term to mean: a =E2=80=9Cuser, organization, device or process=E2=80=9D it = might not make sense for RATs to change its scope. The RATS Arch used the term =E2=80=9Ccomputing environment=E2=80=9D instead of process becaus= e not every computing environment has an operating system.

    =C2=A0

    An =E2=80=9Cattested computing environment=E2=80=9D = is clearly intended to be a =E2=80=9Ccomputing environment=E2=80=9D and hen= ce is an Entity according to the arch draft.

    =C2=A0
    And from a review of the EAT draft (again), I am readin= g this as the attestation based on the installed code with the attestation = performed at boot to match what was installed.=C2=A0 This would verify that= the code was what the system administrator installed and configured.=C2=A0= As opposed to code being attested by the creator, which might be done with= the same format, but would assure the code was as he creator expected.=C2= =A0

    I'm asking about this clarification in lig= ht of supply chain and the flow document:

    Does th= e supply chain use case hold in these definitions or is there some reason w= hy we might not care about attestations on code from the originator that mi= ght include code it relies upon when chained attestations are considered?= =C2=A0 This would expand out the definition of entity as well.

    =C2=A0

    If the EAT draft=E2=80=99s use of entity is semantic= ally equal to the architecture draft use of =E2=80=9Cattested computing env= ironment=E2=80=9D then possibly it makes sense for the EAT draft to begin u= sing this term instead?

    =C2=A0

    The architecture draft potentially could be more cle= ar as to whether an =E2=80=9CAttested computing environment=E2=80=9D is bot= h an entity and a principal or just an entity. It seems clear that an =E2= =80=9Cattesting computing environment=E2=80=9D is a Principal.


    Is EAT limited to 'attested computi= ng environments' or a broader definition of entity?=C2=A0=C2=A0

    Kathleen

    =C2=A0

    Ned

    =C2=A0

    On 10/4/19, 10:27 AM, &q= uot;Laurence Lundblade" <notifications@github.com> wrote:

    =C2=A0

    EAT and Architecture are absolutely NOT alig= ned on the term entity. See my recent email comments on the architecture do= cument.

    My basis for closure is that the architectur= e document will define some term that is the is used to refer to the subjec= t of the attestation. Maybe we shouldn't close this until the architect= ure doc starts tracking issues formally.

    =E2=80=94
    You are receiving this because you commented.
    Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub, or mute the thread.

    _______________________________________________
    RATS mailing list
    RATS@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats


    --

    Best regards,
    Kathleen
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Definition and usage of the term 'entity' (#16) Thread-Index: AQHVetkBfNNVei6RdUGYFkMEDIesFKdKxG4AgACLqID//5T9AA== Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 19:53:26 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.1d.0.190908 x-originating-ip: [10.24.10.171] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D5CE0BA1E9A84B20A9BB3A6BBCE1F1D7intelcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] [ietf-rats-wg/eat] Definition and usage of the term 'entity' (#16) X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2019 19:53:34 -0000 --_000_D5CE0BA1E9A84B20A9BB3A6BBCE1F1D7intelcom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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(amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hiPgSWS1Vuno for ; Fri, 4 Oct 2019 13:02:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-x335.google.com (mail-ot1-x335.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::335]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F204A1200DE for ; Fri, 4 Oct 2019 13:02:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-x335.google.com with SMTP id m19so6348812otp.1 for ; Fri, 04 Oct 2019 13:02:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=OlCguLCKYu0tqsc/r7tVeETJe3rDWLO/ZTXmc62+ikM=; b=SKFlGgtpJaf9ZDBWPaS83N3tD4omowgC8xwq7EIRCDJMey8sR3S7/JEgAs887Y3Uob vzGaKI0e0GlGR7OiE7gbBQhLilJ8m+HDuZsjk6Xt2rOkp2LWtV6dEKdvnGP9QUNc/+b5 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APXvYqxzVNFZpr4Kl39jgrfvqHzUmOiY4YPicGsR0MEpPF7NsYHIwt+D3DPvVQD5yve+YM6VgYeLGSQLiuPTCEZ3MCo= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:6642:: with SMTP id q2mr11942622otm.250.1570219353160; Fri, 04 Oct 2019 13:02:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Kathleen Moriarty Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 16:01:56 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Smith, Ned" Cc: "ietf-rats-wg/eat" , "ietf-rats-wg/eat" , "rats@ietf.org" , Comment Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c3c26105941b2e5c" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] [ietf-rats-wg/eat] Definition and usage of the term 'entity' (#16) X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2019 20:02:36 -0000 --000000000000c3c26105941b2e5c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Oct 4, 2019 at 3:53 PM Smith, Ned wrote: > See inline [nms] > > > > On 10/4/19, 12:17 PM, "Kathleen Moriarty" < > kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 4, 2019 at 1:56 PM Smith, Ned wrote: > > The architecture defines: > > =C2=B7 Entity: a user, organization, device or computing environment. > > =C2=B7 Principal: an Entity that implements RATS Roles and creates prova= ble > Claims or Attestation Results (see [ABLP] and [Lampson2007]). > > =C2=B7 Attesting Computing Environment: a Computing Environment capable = of > monitoring and attesting a target Computing Environment. > > =C2=B7 Attested Computing Environment: a target Computing Environment th= at is > monitored and attested by an Attesting Computing Environment. > > > > The attested computing environment is the subject of attestation which > clearly is creating provable claims. > > > > The =E2=80=98attested=E2=80=99 environment may be less clearly a Principa= l. At one point > the list suggested the architecture should define a term =E2=80=9Ctarget = of > attestation=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cattestation target=E2=80=9D (or somethin= g similar). The term > =E2=80=9Cattested computing environment=E2=80=9D seems close to this. Do = we think the > attested environment is semantically the same as =E2=80=9Csubject of the > attestation=E2=80=9D? > > > > Using Lampson=E2=80=99s definition of Principal, an expression of attribu= tes (aka > claims) is itself a principal. > > > > There are lots of cases where =E2=80=98entity=E2=80=99 is used to refer t= o organizations > and users (see https://csrc.nist.gov/glossary/term/entity ). Given the > broad use of the term to mean: a =E2=80=9Cuser, organization, device or p= rocess=E2=80=9D it > might not make sense for RATs to change its scope. The RATS Arch used the > term =E2=80=9Ccomputing environment=E2=80=9D instead of process because n= ot every computing > environment has an operating system. > > > > An =E2=80=9Cattested computing environment=E2=80=9D is clearly intended t= o be a =E2=80=9Ccomputing > environment=E2=80=9D and hence is an Entity according to the arch draft. > > > > And from a review of the EAT draft (again), I am reading this as the > attestation based on the installed code with the attestation performed at > boot to match what was installed. This would verify that the code was wh= at > the system administrator installed and configured. As opposed to code > being attested by the creator, which might be done with the same format, > but would assure the code was as he creator expected. > > > > I'm asking about this clarification in light of supply chain and the flow > document: > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attes= tation/?include_text=3D1 > > > > Does the supply chain use case hold in these definitions or is there some > reason why we might not care about attestations on code from the originat= or > that might include code it relies upon when chained attestations are > considered? This would expand out the definition of entity as well. > > [nms] The RATS architecture describes the =E2=80=9Cattestations on code f= rom the > originator=E2=80=9D as =E2=80=9CEndorsements=E2=80=9D from =E2=80=9CAsser= ters=E2=80=9D. The architecture tries to > avoid using the term =E2=80=9Cattestation=E2=80=9D in this context as col= lection of > reference values (Endorsements) isn=E2=80=99t the same as providing proof= and > evidence (and the charter ruled this out of scope for now). The NIST > definition of Entity includes supply chain entities (aka Asserters). > > > > If the RATS charter were updated to allow definition of =E2=80=9CEndorsem= ents=E2=80=9D it > might make sense to propose using JWT/CWT as a binding. > Could an endorsement be a form of attestation so the charter does not need to be updated? If we wind up with lots of formats, it'll be impossible to manage with code being used by an entity for which they each chose their own format. From the submitted flow draft that covers this scenario, I'm not sure the terminology was clear enough on the point to separate those out and intentionally exclude endorsements. > The Architecture draft defines endorsements [here] as a specialization of > Claims. Claims in Evidence can be semantically linked to claims in > Endorsements. This is intentional so that verification is less susceptibl= e > to semantic misdirection. > > [here] > > - Endorsements are reference Claims about the environment protecting > the Attesters capabilities to create believable Evidence (e.g. the typ= e of > protection for an attestation key). It answers the question "why Evid= ence > is believable". > > > This was helpful, thank you. Kathleen > > > If the EAT draft=E2=80=99s use of entity is semantically equal to the arc= hitecture > draft use of =E2=80=9Cattested computing environment=E2=80=9D then possib= ly it makes sense > for the EAT draft to begin using this term instead? > > > > The architecture draft potentially could be more clear as to whether an > =E2=80=9CAttested computing environment=E2=80=9D is both an entity and a = principal or just > an entity. It seems clear that an =E2=80=9Cattesting computing environmen= t=E2=80=9D is a > Principal. > > > > Is EAT limited to 'attested computing environments' or a broader > definition of entity? > > > > Kathleen > > > > > > Ned > > > > On 10/4/19, 10:27 AM, "Laurence Lundblade" > wrote: > > > > EAT and Architecture are absolutely NOT aligned on the term entity. See m= y > recent email comments on the architecture document. > > My basis for closure is that the architecture document will define some > term that is the is used to refer to the subject of the attestation. Mayb= e > we shouldn't close this until the architecture doc starts tracking issues > formally. > > =E2=80=94 > You are receiving this because you commented. > Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub > , > or mute the thread > > . > > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > > > > > -- > > > > Best regards, > > Kathleen > --=20 Best regards, Kathleen --000000000000c3c26105941b2e5c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


    =
    On Fri, Oct 4, 2019 at 3:53 PM Smith,= Ned <ned.smith@intel.com>= wrote:

    See inline [nms]

    =C2=A0

    On 10/4/19, 12:17 PM, &q= uot;Kathleen Moriarty" <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:<= u>

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    On Fri, Oct 4, 2019 at 1= :56 PM Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com> wrote:

    The architecture defines:

    =C2=B7 Entity:=C2=A0 a user, organization, device or c= omputing environment.

    =C2=B7 Principal:=C2=A0 an Entity that implements RATS= Roles and creates provable Claims or Attestation Results (see [ABLP] and [= Lampson2007]).

    =C2=B7 Attesting Computing Environment:=C2=A0 a Comput= ing Environment capable of monitoring and attesting a target Computing Envi= ronment.

    =C2=B7 Attested Computing Environment:=C2=A0 a target = Computing Environment that is monitored and attested by an Attesting Comput= ing Environment.

    =C2=A0

    The attested computing environment is the subject of attestation which clea= rly is creating provable claims.

    =C2=A0

    The =E2=80=98attested=E2=80=99 environment may be less clearly a Principal.= At one point the list suggested the architecture should define a term =E2= =80=9Ctarget of attestation=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cattestation target=E2=80= =9D (or something similar). The term =E2=80=9Cattested computing environmen= t=E2=80=9D seems close to this. Do we think the attested environment is semantically the same as =E2= =80=9Csubject of the attestation=E2=80=9D?

    =C2=A0

    Using Lampson=E2=80=99s definition of Principal, an expression of attribute= s (aka claims) is itself a principal.

    =C2=A0

    There are lots of cases where =E2=80=98entity=E2=80=99 is used to refer to = organizations and users (see ht= tps://csrc.nist.gov/glossary/term/entity ). Given the broad use of the = term to mean: a =E2=80=9Cuser, organization, device or process=E2=80=9D it = might not make sense for RATs to change its scope. The RATS Arch used the term =E2=80=9Ccomputing environment=E2=80=9D instead of= process because not every computing environment has an operating system.

    =C2=A0

    An =E2=80=9Cattested computing environment=E2=80=9D is clearly intended to = be a =E2=80=9Ccomputing environment=E2=80=9D and hence is an Entity accordi= ng to the arch draft.

    =C2=A0

    And from a review of the= EAT draft (again), I am reading this as the attestation based on the insta= lled code with the attestation performed at boot to match what was installe= d.=C2=A0 This would verify that the code was what the system administrator installed and configured.=C2=A0 As opposed t= o code being attested by the creator, which might be done with the same for= mat, but would assure the code was as he creator expected.=C2=A0<= /u>

    =C2=A0

    I'm asking about thi= s clarification in light of supply chain and the flow document:

    =C2=A0

    Does the supply chain us= e case hold in these definitions or is there some reason why we might not c= are about attestations on code from the originator that might include code = it relies upon when chained attestations are considered?=C2=A0 This would expand out the definition of entity as we= ll.

    [nms] The RATS architecture describes the =E2=80=9Ca= ttestations on code from the originator=E2=80=9D as =E2=80=9CEndorsements= =E2=80=9D from =E2=80=9CAsserters=E2=80=9D. The architecture tries to avoid= using the term =E2=80=9Cattestation=E2=80=9D in this context as collection= of reference values (Endorsements) isn=E2=80=99t the same as providing proof and evidence (and the charter ru= led this out of scope for now). The NIST definition of Entity includes supp= ly chain entities (aka Asserters).

    =C2=A0

    If the RATS charter were updated to allow definition= of =E2=80=9CEndorsements=E2=80=9D it might make sense to propose using JWT= /CWT as a binding.


    <= /div>
    Could an endorsement be a form of attestation so the charter does= not need to be updated?=C2=A0 If we wind up with lots of formats, it'l= l be impossible to manage with code being used by an entity for which they = each chose their own format. From the submitted flow draft that covers this= scenario, I'm not sure the terminology was clear enough on the point t= o separate those out and intentionally exclude endorsements.
    =C2= =A0
    =

    The Architecture draft defines endorsements [here] = as a specialization of Claims. Claims in Evidence can be semantically linked to claims in Endorsements. This is intentional so that= verification is less susceptible to semantic misdirection.

    [here]

    • Endorsements are reference Claims about the environment protectin= g the Attesters capabilities to create believable Evidence (e.g. the type o= f protection for an attestation key).=C2=A0 It answers the question "why Evidence is believable".=

    =C2=A0

    <= /div>
    This was helpful, thank you.
    =
    Kathleen=C2=A0
    =

    <= /p>

    =C2=A0

    If the EAT draft=E2=80=99s use of entity is semantically equal to the archi= tecture draft use of =E2=80=9Cattested computing environment=E2=80=9D then = possibly it makes sense for the EAT draft to begin using this term instead?=

    =C2=A0

    The architecture draft potentially could be more clear as to whether an =E2= =80=9CAttested computing environment=E2=80=9D is both an entity and a princ= ipal or just an entity. It seems clear that an =E2=80=9Cattesting computing= environment=E2=80=9D is a Principal.

    =C2=A0

    Is EAT limited to 'a= ttested computing environments' or a broader definition of entity?=C2= =A0=C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    Kathleen

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    Ned

    =C2=A0

    On 10/4/19, 10:27 AM, "Laurence Lundblade" <notifications@github.com>= ; wrote:

    =C2=A0

    EAT and Architecture are absolutely NOT aligne= d on the term entity. See my recent email comments on the architecture docu= ment.

    My basis for closure is that the architecture = document will define some term that is the is used to refer to the subject = of the attestation. Maybe we shouldn't close this until the architectur= e doc starts tracking issues formally.

    =E2=80=94
    You are receiving this because you commented.
    Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub, or mute the thread.    =

    ________________________= _______________________
    RATS mailing list
    RATS@ietf.org
    ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats


    =C2=A0

    --

    =C2=A0

    Best regards,<= /u>

    Kathleen



    --

    Best regards,
    Kathleen
    --000000000000c3c26105941b2e5c-- From nobody Fri Oct 4 14:55:46 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DD7312004A for ; Fri, 4 Oct 2019 14:55:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wOPpULsClpaL for ; Fri, 4 Oct 2019 14:55:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.72.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EB93E120024 for ; Fri, 4 Oct 2019 14:55:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (mail.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.84.171]) by mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-10) with ESMTPS id x94LtYA1019088 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT); Fri, 4 Oct 2019 23:55:35 +0200 Received: from [192.168.16.50] (79.234.112.245) by mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (141.12.84.171) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.468.0; Fri, 4 Oct 2019 23:55:29 +0200 To: Kathleen Moriarty , "Smith, Ned" CC: "rats@ietf.org" References: From: Henk Birkholz Message-ID: Date: Fri, 4 Oct 2019 23:55:28 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [79.234.112.245] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] [ietf-rats-wg/eat] Definition and usage of the term 'entity' (#16) X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2019 21:55:46 -0000 Sry, I used github directly to reply to the last issue comment, but that is apparently not forwarded to the rats list. Here is my reply to Kathleen's last comment: TL;DR yes, endorsements are a "form of attestation", but they are not attestation evidence. Endorsements are part of the attestation provisioning workflows. During the chartering, the proponents made their case for a complete inclusion of remote attestation procedures and the resulting consensus was to do phases via chartering. There was a split into the "attestation evidence workflows", which is currently chartered, and the "attestation provisioning workflows", which is not currently chartered. In achieving this compromise, the proponents where also adamant about including both workflows in the architecture I-D from the very beginning (as an "exception" so to speak) and luckily this also reached consensus - otherwise the document would not really make sense. To answer your question: yes, endorsements are a "form of attestation". Nevertheless they are not attestation evidence, but part of the attestation provisioning workflows. This is also the reason why the RATS terminology is rather complex. To simply "attest to something" or "conduct attestation" is semantically mixing two quite separate and distinct workflows. The authors of the architecture I-D are very invested in unifying as much as they can in this first phase though. Currently, the architecture I-D defines Evidence, Endorsements & Reference Values to be composed of Claims. The context gives them different scope, audience and intent, e.g. Attestation Evidence in the form of an EAT. That means we are using assertions and claims basically as synonyms, which is a bit tricky because in the IETF a Claim is a specialization of assertion and a data model concept used in web tokens. In RATS and especially in the RATS EAT I-D, Claims MAY be key value pairs in JWT or CWT that can be registered in IANA registries, but Claims MAY also be assertions that are represented in other data models (most prominently attributes in pub-key/identity or attribute certificates and YANG modules). "Winding up with lots of formats": We surely want to prevent that, but we have to take into account what is used today globally. "Terminology in the submitted flow draft that covers this scenario": While draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation makes use of concepts such as IDevID, LDevID, IAK and LAK, it does not elaborate on Endorsements and EK, which is okay, because they are.. well, currently out-of-scope. I know (obviously) that draft-birkholz-rats-tuda does use endorsement documents and corresponding endorsement keys, but that work was started before the chartering of RATS. Viele Grüße, Henk On 04.10.19 22:01, Kathleen Moriarty wrote: > > > On Fri, Oct 4, 2019 at 3:53 PM Smith, Ned > wrote: > > See inline [nms]____ > > __ __ > > On 10/4/19, 12:17 PM, "Kathleen Moriarty" > > wrote:____ > > __ __ > > __ __ > > __ __ > > On Fri, Oct 4, 2019 at 1:56 PM Smith, Ned > wrote:____ > > The architecture defines:____ > > __·__Entity:  a user, organization, device or computing > environment.____ > > __·__Principal:  an Entity that implements RATS Roles and > creates provable Claims or Attestation Results (see [ABLP] and > [Lampson2007]).____ > > __·__Attesting Computing Environment:  a Computing Environment > capable of monitoring and attesting a target Computing > Environment.____ > > __·__Attested Computing Environment:  a target Computing > Environment that is monitored and attested by an Attesting > Computing Environment.____ > > ____ > > The attested computing environment is the subject of attestation > which clearly is creating provable claims.____ > > ____ > > The ‘attested’ environment may be less clearly a Principal. At > one point the list suggested the architecture should define a > term “target of attestation” or “attestation target” (or > something similar). The term “attested computing environment” > seems close to this. Do we think the attested environment is > semantically the same as “subject of the attestation”? ____ > > ____ > > Using Lampson’s definition of Principal, an expression of > attributes (aka claims) is itself a principal. ____ > > ____ > > There are lots of cases where ‘entity’ is used to refer to > organizations and users (see > https://csrc.nist.gov/glossary/term/entity ). Given the broad > use of the term to mean: a “user, organization, device or > process” it might not make sense for RATs to change its scope. > The RATS Arch used the term “computing environment” instead of > process because not every computing environment has an operating > system. ____ > > ____ > > An “attested computing environment” is clearly intended to be a > “computing environment” and hence is an Entity according to the > arch draft.____ > > ____ > > And from a review of the EAT draft (again), I am reading this as the > attestation based on the installed code with the attestation > performed at boot to match what was installed.  This would verify > that the code was what the system administrator installed and > configured.  As opposed to code being attested by the creator, which > might be done with the same format, but would assure the code was as > he creator expected. ____ > > __ __ > > I'm asking about this clarification in light of supply chain and the > flow document:____ > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation/?include_text=1____ > > __ __ > > Does the supply chain use case hold in these definitions or is there > some reason why we might not care about attestations on code from > the originator that might include code it relies upon when chained > attestations are considered?  This would expand out the definition > of entity as well.____ > > [nms] The RATS architecture describes the “attestations on code from > the originator” as “Endorsements” from “Asserters”. The architecture > tries to avoid using the term “attestation” in this context as > collection of reference values (Endorsements) isn’t the same as > providing proof and evidence (and the charter ruled this out of > scope for now). The NIST definition of Entity includes supply chain > entities (aka Asserters). ____ > > __ __ > > If the RATS charter were updated to allow definition of > “Endorsements” it might make sense to propose using JWT/CWT as a > binding. > > > Could an endorsement be a form of attestation so the charter does not > need to be updated?  If we wind up with lots of formats, it'll be > impossible to manage with code being used by an entity for which they > each chose their own format. From the submitted flow draft that covers > this scenario, I'm not sure the terminology was clear enough on the > point to separate those out and intentionally exclude endorsements. > > The Architecture draft defines endorsements [here] as a > specialization of Claims. Claims in Evidence can be semantically > linked to claims in Endorsements. This is intentional so that > verification is less susceptible to semantic misdirection. ____ > > [here]____ > > * Endorsements are reference Claims about the environment > protecting the Attesters capabilities to create believable > Evidence (e.g. the type of protection for an attestation key). > It answers the question "why Evidence is believable".____ > > __ > > This was helpful, thank you. > Kathleen > > __ > > ____ > > If the EAT draft’s use of entity is semantically equal to the > architecture draft use of “attested computing environment” then > possibly it makes sense for the EAT draft to begin using this > term instead?____ > > ____ > > The architecture draft potentially could be more clear as to > whether an “Attested computing environment” is both an entity > and a principal or just an entity. It seems clear that an > “attesting computing environment” is a Principal.____ > > __ __ > > Is EAT limited to 'attested computing environments' or a broader > definition of entity? ____ > > __ __ > > Kathleen____ > > __ __ > > ____ > > Ned____ > > ____ > > On 10/4/19, 10:27 AM, "Laurence Lundblade" > > > wrote:____ > > ____ > > EAT and Architecture are absolutely NOT aligned on the term > entity. See my recent email comments on the architecture > document.____ > > My basis for closure is that the architecture document will > define some term that is the is used to refer to the subject of > the attestation. Maybe we shouldn't close this until the > architecture doc starts tracking issues formally.____ > > — > You are receiving this because you commented. > Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub > , > or mute the thread > .____ > > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats____ > > > ____ > > __ __ > > -- ____ > > __ __ > > Best regards,____ > > Kathleen____ > > > > -- > > Best regards, > Kathleen > > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > From nobody Sat Oct 5 19:20:06 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CAC912004A for ; Sat, 5 Oct 2019 19:20:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DC_PNG_UNO_LARGO=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pB1f1Oa529wX for ; Sat, 5 Oct 2019 19:20:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p3plsmtpa12-02.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa12-02.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [68.178.252.231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 34DA612000F for ; Sat, 5 Oct 2019 19:20:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.76] ([76.167.193.86]) by :SMTPAUTH: with ESMTPA id Gw9NinTzUuG6IGw9Pizu3W; Sat, 05 Oct 2019 19:19:59 -0700 From: Laurence Lundblade Message-Id: <252C6013-93E6-42E5-88B3-144EB9B6D2D6@island-resort.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A0CB35E4-1F57-4ECB-83D5-F6FD069DD11D" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2019 19:19:57 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: Kathleen Moriarty , "Smith, Ned" , "rats@ietf.org" To: Henk Birkholz References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfDZsFirZsZuRh5aQKfytGag34q5WXwlI8G2iUK2rbHnQjJSh0dn1bMSBT5Mr48nFduLArxt4Fyqz92mJmSztafRR9ipNisJR0rGo/+vcDentN2DMdEUK CLkRZ6NGpjj3fet4T7yv+SiP8crpmwNnI2tUX8UPneOh1k9LyGqJHzkN8idSgPBBrV4t3qR8zMMD3XR2mGOnm/7NGcah2bArAtiX3z4y1K2kZRLfIh4FqTT4 lMjbK9SPUt3nxTkNSv7QRt6FzJ9MkhQWm22sxjzsI7ye5IjXzkoIM4j+s2EUZz0y Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] [ietf-rats-wg/eat] Definition and usage of the term 'entity' (#16) X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2019 02:20:05 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_A0CB35E4-1F57-4ECB-83D5-F6FD069DD11D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I haven=E2=80=99t read this thread in detail yet, but here=E2=80=99s a = picture of what I think we=E2=80=99re trying to to create terminology = for for the TEE / phone / SoC uses cases. Definitely does NOT apply to = TPM-based systems. The SoC is typical of a mobile phone (except there are likely to be ten = more subsystems) with a TEE. All subsystems are booted with secure/trusted boot =E2=80=94 the code is = authenticated by public key crypto (no TPM involved). TEE can access all memory (lots of green arrows) Individual subsystems can only access the memory they have been allowed = access to so they live largely in their own partition The chip HW registers contain things like the state of the HW debug = facilities and the version and type of the chip One particular attestation architecture works like this: The attester lives in the TEE and owns the signing keys The attester in the TEE creates claims about all sorts of stuff about = Android including SW versions, measurements of files and measurements of = running images. It can do this because it has access. Samsung TIMA is = like this. The attester in the TEE creates the location claim by access the = position location HW directly The attester in the TEE creates the HW version and debug state claims by = access those HW registers directly EAT uses the term =E2=80=9Centity=E2=80=9D to loosely refer to = everything in the diagram. Many of those things are less secure than the = TEE. The submods and security level claims are in the EAT draft to = describe all this. For example, all the claims about Linux Android would = appear in a submod that is labeled as lower security and as =E2=80=9CLinux= Android=E2=80=9D.=20 So using what Ned proposed the TEE is the attesting computing = environment and most other parts, either collectively or individually = are the attested computing environment(s).=20 I don=E2=80=99t have fully formed opinion on this terminology yet, but = wanted to describe the TEE-oriented set up for context. LL > On Oct 4, 2019, at 2:55 PM, Henk Birkholz = wrote: >=20 > Sry, I used github directly to reply to the last issue comment, but = that is apparently not forwarded to the rats list. Here is my reply to = Kathleen's last comment: >=20 >=20 > TL;DR yes, endorsements are a "form of attestation", but they are not = attestation evidence. Endorsements are part of the attestation = provisioning workflows. >=20 >=20 >=20 > During the chartering, the proponents made their case for a complete = inclusion of remote attestation procedures and the resulting consensus = was to do phases via chartering. There was a split into the "attestation = evidence workflows", which is currently chartered, and the "attestation = provisioning workflows", which is not currently chartered. >=20 > In achieving this compromise, the proponents where also adamant about = including both workflows in the architecture I-D from the very beginning = (as an "exception" so to speak) and luckily this also reached consensus = - otherwise the document would not really make sense. >=20 > To answer your question: yes, endorsements are a "form of = attestation". Nevertheless they are not attestation evidence, but part = of the attestation provisioning workflows. This is also the reason why = the RATS terminology is rather complex. To simply "attest to something" = or "conduct attestation" is semantically mixing two quite separate and = distinct workflows. >=20 > The authors of the architecture I-D are very invested in unifying as = much as they can in this first phase though. Currently, the architecture = I-D defines Evidence, Endorsements & Reference Values to be composed of = Claims. The context gives them different scope, audience and intent, = e.g. Attestation Evidence in the form of an EAT. That means we are using = assertions and claims basically as synonyms, which is a bit tricky = because in the IETF a Claim is a specialization of assertion and a data = model concept used in web tokens. In RATS and especially in the RATS EAT = I-D, Claims MAY be key value pairs in JWT or CWT that can be registered = in IANA registries, but Claims MAY also be assertions that are = represented in other data models (most prominently attributes in = pub-key/identity or attribute certificates and YANG modules). >=20 > "Winding up with lots of formats": We surely want to prevent that, but = we have to take into account what is used today globally. >=20 > "Terminology in the submitted flow draft that covers this scenario": = While draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation makes use of = concepts such as IDevID, LDevID, IAK and LAK, it does not elaborate on = Endorsements and EK, which is okay, because they are.. well, currently = out-of-scope. I know (obviously) that draft-birkholz-rats-tuda does use = endorsement documents and corresponding endorsement keys, but that work = was started before the chartering of RATS. >=20 >=20 > Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, >=20 > Henk >=20 > On 04.10.19 22:01, Kathleen Moriarty wrote: >> On Fri, Oct 4, 2019 at 3:53 PM Smith, Ned > wrote: >> See inline [nms]____ >> __ __ >> On 10/4/19, 12:17 PM, "Kathleen Moriarty" >> > > wrote:____ >> __ __ >> __ __ >> __ __ >> On Fri, Oct 4, 2019 at 1:56 PM Smith, Ned > > wrote:____ >> The architecture defines:____ >> __=C2=B7__Entity: a user, organization, device or computing >> environment.____ >> __=C2=B7__Principal: an Entity that implements RATS Roles and >> creates provable Claims or Attestation Results (see [ABLP] and >> [Lampson2007]).____ >> __=C2=B7__Attesting Computing Environment: a Computing = Environment >> capable of monitoring and attesting a target Computing >> Environment.____ >> __=C2=B7__Attested Computing Environment: a target Computing >> Environment that is monitored and attested by an Attesting >> Computing Environment.____ >> ____ >> The attested computing environment is the subject of = attestation >> which clearly is creating provable claims.____ >> ____ >> The =E2=80=98attested=E2=80=99 environment may be less clearly = a Principal. At >> one point the list suggested the architecture should define a >> term =E2=80=9Ctarget of attestation=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cattesta= tion target=E2=80=9D (or >> something similar). The term =E2=80=9Cattested computing = environment=E2=80=9D >> seems close to this. Do we think the attested environment is >> semantically the same as =E2=80=9Csubject of the = attestation=E2=80=9D? ____ >> ____ >> Using Lampson=E2=80=99s definition of Principal, an expression = of >> attributes (aka claims) is itself a principal. ____ >> ____ >> There are lots of cases where =E2=80=98entity=E2=80=99 is used = to refer to >> organizations and users (see >> https://csrc.nist.gov/glossary/term/entity ). Given the broad >> use of the term to mean: a =E2=80=9Cuser, organization, device = or >> process=E2=80=9D it might not make sense for RATs to change = its scope. >> The RATS Arch used the term =E2=80=9Ccomputing environment=E2=80= =9D instead of >> process because not every computing environment has an = operating >> system. ____ >> ____ >> An =E2=80=9Cattested computing environment=E2=80=9D is clearly = intended to be a >> =E2=80=9Ccomputing environment=E2=80=9D and hence is an Entity = according to the >> arch draft.____ >> ____ >> And from a review of the EAT draft (again), I am reading this as = the >> attestation based on the installed code with the attestation >> performed at boot to match what was installed. This would verify >> that the code was what the system administrator installed and >> configured. As opposed to code being attested by the creator, = which >> might be done with the same format, but would assure the code was = as >> he creator expected. ____ >> __ __ >> I'm asking about this clarification in light of supply chain and = the >> flow document:____ >> = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attest= ation/?include_text=3D1____ >> __ __ >> Does the supply chain use case hold in these definitions or is = there >> some reason why we might not care about attestations on code from >> the originator that might include code it relies upon when chained >> attestations are considered? This would expand out the definition >> of entity as well.____ >> [nms] The RATS architecture describes the =E2=80=9Cattestations on = code from >> the originator=E2=80=9D as =E2=80=9CEndorsements=E2=80=9D from = =E2=80=9CAsserters=E2=80=9D. The architecture >> tries to avoid using the term =E2=80=9Cattestation=E2=80=9D in = this context as >> collection of reference values (Endorsements) isn=E2=80=99t the = same as >> providing proof and evidence (and the charter ruled this out of >> scope for now). The NIST definition of Entity includes supply = chain >> entities (aka Asserters). ____ >> __ __ >> If the RATS charter were updated to allow definition of >> =E2=80=9CEndorsements=E2=80=9D it might make sense to propose = using JWT/CWT as a >> binding. >> Could an endorsement be a form of attestation so the charter does not = need to be updated? If we wind up with lots of formats, it'll be = impossible to manage with code being used by an entity for which they = each chose their own format. =46rom the submitted flow draft that covers = this scenario, I'm not sure the terminology was clear enough on the = point to separate those out and intentionally exclude endorsements. >> The Architecture draft defines endorsements [here] as a >> specialization of Claims. Claims in Evidence can be semantically >> linked to claims in Endorsements. This is intentional so that >> verification is less susceptible to semantic misdirection. ____ >> [here]____ >> * Endorsements are reference Claims about the environment >> protecting the Attesters capabilities to create believable >> Evidence (e.g. the type of protection for an attestation key). = It answers the question "why Evidence is believable".____ >> __ >> This was helpful, thank you. >> Kathleen >> __ >> ____ >> If the EAT draft=E2=80=99s use of entity is semantically equal = to the >> architecture draft use of =E2=80=9Cattested computing = environment=E2=80=9D then >> possibly it makes sense for the EAT draft to begin using this >> term instead?____ >> ____ >> The architecture draft potentially could be more clear as to >> whether an =E2=80=9CAttested computing environment=E2=80=9D is = both an entity >> and a principal or just an entity. It seems clear that an >> =E2=80=9Cattesting computing environment=E2=80=9D is a = Principal.____ >> __ __ >> Is EAT limited to 'attested computing environments' or a broader >> definition of entity? ____ >> __ __ >> Kathleen____ >> __ __ >> ____ >> Ned____ >> ____ >> On 10/4/19, 10:27 AM, "Laurence Lundblade" >> > >> wrote:____ >> ____ >> EAT and Architecture are absolutely NOT aligned on the term >> entity. See my recent email comments on the architecture >> document.____ >> My basis for closure is that the architecture document will >> define some term that is the is used to refer to the subject = of >> the attestation. Maybe we shouldn't close this until the >> architecture doc starts tracking issues formally.____ >> =E2=80=94 >> You are receiving this because you commented. >> Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub >> = , >> or mute the thread >> = .____ >> _______________________________________________ >> RATS mailing list >> RATS@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats____ >> ____ >> __ __ >> -- ____ >> __ __ >> Best regards,____ >> Kathleen____ >> --=20 >> Best regards, >> Kathleen >> _______________________________________________ >> RATS mailing list >> RATS@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats >=20 > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats --Apple-Mail=_A0CB35E4-1F57-4ECB-83D5-F6FD069DD11D Content-Type: multipart/related; type="text/html"; boundary="Apple-Mail=_104DE9EC-70F5-446E-B5EB-328C12CFB888" --Apple-Mail=_104DE9EC-70F5-446E-B5EB-328C12CFB888 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
    I haven=E2=80=99t read this thread in detail yet, but = here=E2=80=99s a picture of what I think we=E2=80=99re trying to to = create terminology for for the TEE / phone / SoC uses cases. Definitely = does NOT apply to TPM-based systems.


    The SoC is typical of a = mobile phone (except there are likely to be ten more subsystems) with a = TEE.
    • All = subsystems are booted with secure/trusted boot =E2=80=94 the code is = authenticated by public key crypto (no TPM involved).
    • TEE can access all memory (lots of green arrows)
    • Individual subsystems can only access the memory they have = been allowed access to so they live largely in their own = partition
    • The chip HW registers contain things like = the state of the HW debug facilities and the version and type of the = chip

    One particular attestation architecture works like = this:
    • The = attester lives in the TEE and owns the signing keys
    • The= attester in the TEE creates claims about all sorts of stuff about = Android including SW versions, measurements of files and measurements of = running images. It can do this because it has access. Samsung TIMA is = like this.
    • The attester in the TEE creates the = location claim by access the position location HW directly
    • The attester in the TEE creates the HW version and debug = state claims by access those HW registers directly

    EAT uses the term = =E2=80=9Centity=E2=80=9D to loosely refer to everything in the diagram. = Many of those things are less secure than the TEE. The submods and = security level claims are in the EAT draft to describe all this. For = example, all the claims about Linux Android would appear in a submod = that is labeled as lower security and as =E2=80=9CLinux = Android=E2=80=9D. 

    So using what Ned proposed the TEE is the attesting computing environment and most other parts, either collectively = or individually are the attested computing = environment(s). 

    I don=E2=80=99t have fully = formed opinion on this terminology yet, but wanted to describe the = TEE-oriented set up for context.

    LL



    On Oct 4, 2019, at 2:55 PM, = Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:

    Sry, = I used github directly to reply to the last issue comment, but that is = apparently not forwarded to the rats list. Here is my reply to = Kathleen's last comment:


    TL;DR= yes, endorsements are a "form of attestation", but they are not = attestation evidence. Endorsements are part of the attestation = provisioning workflows.



    During the chartering, the proponents made their case for a = complete inclusion of remote attestation procedures and the resulting = consensus was to do phases via chartering. There was a split into the = "attestation evidence workflows", which is currently chartered, and the = "attestation provisioning workflows", which is not currently = chartered.

    In achieving this compromise, = the proponents where also adamant about including both workflows in the = architecture I-D from the very beginning (as an "exception" so to speak) = and luckily this also reached consensus - otherwise the document would = not really make sense.

    To answer your = question: yes, endorsements are a "form of attestation". Nevertheless = they are not attestation evidence, but part of the attestation = provisioning workflows. This is also the reason why the RATS terminology = is rather complex. To simply "attest to something" or "conduct = attestation" is semantically mixing two quite separate and distinct = workflows.

    The authors of the architecture = I-D are very invested in unifying as much as they can in this first = phase though. Currently, the architecture I-D defines Evidence, = Endorsements & Reference Values to be composed of Claims. The = context gives them different scope, audience and intent, e.g. = Attestation Evidence in the form of an EAT. That means we are using = assertions and claims basically as synonyms, which is a bit tricky = because in the IETF a Claim is a specialization of assertion and a data = model concept used in web tokens. In RATS and especially in the RATS EAT = I-D, Claims MAY be key value pairs in JWT or CWT that can be registered = in IANA registries, but Claims MAY also be assertions that are = represented in other data models (most prominently attributes in = pub-key/identity or attribute certificates and YANG modules).

    "Winding up with lots of formats": We surely = want to prevent that, but we have to take into account what is used = today globally.

    "Terminology in the = submitted flow draft that covers this scenario": While = draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation makes use of concepts = such as IDevID, LDevID, IAK and LAK, it does not elaborate on = Endorsements and EK, which is okay, because they are.. well, currently = out-of-scope. I know (obviously) that draft-birkholz-rats-tuda does use = endorsement documents and corresponding endorsement keys, but that work = was started before the chartering of RATS.


    Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,

    Henk

    On 04.10.19 22:01, Kathleen = Moriarty wrote:
    On = Fri, Oct 4, 2019 at 3:53 PM Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com = <mailto:ned.smith@intel.com>> wrote:
    =    See inline [nms]____
    =    __ __
       On 10/4/19, = 12:17 PM, "Kathleen Moriarty"
       <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com
    =    <mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>> = wrote:____
       __ __
    =    __ __
       __ __
       On Fri, Oct 4, 2019 at 1:56 PM Smith, Ned = <ned.smith@intel.com
    =    <mailto:ned.smith@intel.com>> wrote:____
           The architecture = defines:____
    =        __=C2=B7__Entity:  a = user, organization, device or computing
    =        environment.____
    =        __=C2=B7__Principal:  an = Entity that implements RATS Roles and
    =        creates provable Claims or = Attestation Results (see [ABLP] and
    =        [Lampson2007]).____
           __=C2=B7__Attesting = Computing Environment:  a Computing Environment
    =        capable of monitoring and = attesting a target Computing
    =        Environment.____
    =        __=C2=B7__Attested Computing = Environment:  a target Computing
    =        Environment that is monitored = and attested by an Attesting
    =        Computing Environment.____
           ____
    =        The attested computing = environment is the subject of attestation
    =        which clearly is creating = provable claims.____
    =        ____
    =        The =E2=80=98attested=E2=80=99 = environment may be less clearly a Principal. At
    =        one point the list suggested = the architecture should define a
    =        term =E2=80=9Ctarget of = attestation=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cattestation target=E2=80=9D (or
           something = similar). The term =E2=80=9Cattested computing environment=E2=80=9D
           seems close to = this. Do we think the attested environment is
    =        semantically the same as = =E2=80=9Csubject of the attestation=E2=80=9D? ____
    =        ____
    =        Using Lampson=E2=80=99s = definition of Principal, an expression of
    =        attributes (aka claims) is = itself a principal. ____
    =        ____
    =        There are lots of cases where = =E2=80=98entity=E2=80=99 is used to refer to
    =        organizations and users = (see
           https://csrc.nist.gov/glossary/term/entity ). Given the = broad
           use of = the term to mean: a =E2=80=9Cuser, organization, device or
    =        process=E2=80=9D it might not = make sense for RATs to change its scope.
    =        The RATS Arch used the term = =E2=80=9Ccomputing environment=E2=80=9D instead of
    =        process because not every = computing environment has an operating
    =        system. ____
    =        ____
    =        An =E2=80=9Cattested computing = environment=E2=80=9D is clearly intended to be a
    =        =E2=80=9Ccomputing = environment=E2=80=9D and hence is an Entity according to the
           arch draft.____
       ____
       And = from a review of the EAT draft (again), I am reading this as the
       attestation based on the installed code = with the attestation
       performed at boot = to match what was installed.  This would verify
    =    that the code was what the system administrator = installed and
       configured.  As = opposed to code being attested by the creator, which
    =    might be done with the same format, but would assure = the code was as
       he creator expected. = ____
       __ __
    =    I'm asking about this clarification in light of supply = chain and the
       flow document:____
       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-fedorkow-rats-network-de= vice-attestation/?include_text=3D1____
    =    __ __
       Does the supply = chain use case hold in these definitions or is there
    =    some reason why we might not care about attestations = on code from
       the originator that might = include code it relies upon when chained
    =    attestations are considered?  This would expand = out the definition
       of entity as = well.____
       [nms] The RATS architecture = describes the =E2=80=9Cattestations on code from
    =    the originator=E2=80=9D as =E2=80=9CEndorsements=E2=80=9D= from =E2=80=9CAsserters=E2=80=9D. The architecture
    =    tries to avoid using the term =E2=80=9Cattestation=E2=80= =9D in this context as
       collection of = reference values (Endorsements) isn=E2=80=99t the same as
    =    providing proof and evidence (and the charter ruled = this out of
       scope for now). The NIST = definition of Entity includes supply chain
    =    entities (aka Asserters). ____
    =    __ __
       If the RATS = charter were updated to allow definition of
    =    =E2=80=9CEndorsements=E2=80=9D it might make sense to = propose using JWT/CWT as a
       binding.
    Could an endorsement be a form of attestation so the charter = does not need to be updated?  If we wind up with lots of formats, = it'll be impossible to manage with code being used by an entity for = which they each chose their own format. =46rom the submitted flow draft = that covers this scenario, I'm not sure the terminology was clear enough = on the point to separate those out and intentionally exclude = endorsements.
       The Architecture draft = defines endorsements [here] as a
    =    specialization of Claims. Claims in Evidence can be = semantically
       linked to claims in = Endorsements. This is intentional so that
    =    verification is less susceptible to semantic = misdirection. ____
       [here]____
         * Endorsements are reference = Claims about the environment
    =        protecting the Attesters = capabilities to create believable
    =        Evidence (e.g. the type of = protection for an attestation key). =         It answers the question = "why Evidence is believable".____
       __
    This was helpful, thank you.
    Kathleen
       __
    =        ____
    =        If the EAT draft=E2=80=99s use = of entity is semantically equal to the
    =        architecture draft use of = =E2=80=9Cattested computing environment=E2=80=9D then
    =        possibly it makes sense for = the EAT draft to begin using this
    =        term instead?____
    =        ____
    =        The architecture draft = potentially could be more clear as to
    =        whether an =E2=80=9CAttested = computing environment=E2=80=9D is both an entity
    =        and a principal or just an = entity. It seems clear that an
    =        =E2=80=9Cattesting computing = environment=E2=80=9D is a Principal.____
    =    __ __
       Is EAT limited = to 'attested computing environments' or a broader
    =    definition of entity? ____
    =    __ __
       Kathleen____
       __ __
    =        ____
    =        Ned____
    =        ____
    =        On 10/4/19, 10:27 AM, = "Laurence Lundblade"
    =        <notifications@github.com <mailto:notifications@github.com>>
    =        wrote:____
    =        ____
    =        EAT and Architecture are = absolutely NOT aligned on the term
    =        entity. See my recent email = comments on the architecture
    =        document.____
    =        My basis for closure is that = the architecture document will
    =        define some term that is the = is used to refer to the subject of
    =        the attestation. Maybe we = shouldn't close this until the
    =        architecture doc starts = tracking issues formally.____
    =        =E2=80=94
    =        You are receiving this because = you commented.
    =        Reply to this email directly, = view it on GitHub
    =        <https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/issues/16?email_source=3Dno= tifications&email_token=3DABPMCSG6S47KPNKHPDRK3TDQM54ILA5CNFSM4ID7KXSK= YY3PNVWWK3TUL52HS4DFVREXG43VMVBW63LNMVXHJKTDN5WW2ZLOORPWSZGOEAMLBKY#issuec= omment-538489003>,
    =        or mute the thread
           <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ABPMCSAPK5BFF= BWNGO2SLZTQM54ILANCNFSM4ID7KXSA>.____
    =        ________________________________= _______________
    =        RATS mailing list
    =        RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
           https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats____
       ____
       __ = __
       -- ____
    =    __ __
       Best = regards,____
       Kathleen____
    --
    Best regards,
    Kathleen
    _______________________________________________
    RATS mailing list
    RATS@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats

    _______________________________________________
    RATS mailing list
    RATS@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats

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relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [IPv6:2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:de77]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3383E12004E for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 05:26:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (unknown [80.233.45.41]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BD30B1F47F; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 12:26:47 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 7AD6C227A; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 14:27:34 +0200 (CEST) From: Michael Richardson To: Laurence Lundblade cc: rats@ietf.org In-reply-to: <2DE09A2A-A6EA-4474-9DBE-8D52B523645B@island-resort.com> References: <2DE09A2A-A6EA-4474-9DBE-8D52B523645B@island-resort.com> Comments: In-reply-to Laurence Lundblade message dated "Sun, 04 Aug 2019 11:37:38 -0700." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2019 14:27:34 +0200 Message-ID: <1579.1570451254@dooku.sandelman.ca> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] No root of trust requirement in RATS/EAT X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2019 12:26:50 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Laurence Lundblade wrote: > An Android phone often looks like this: > - Linux / Android apps > - Linux kernel > - TA=E2=80=99s (Trusted Apps =E2=80=94 apps running the TEE) > - TEE kernel > It must be allowed for any one of these to generate RATS/EAT > attestations. It might be that only the Android app generates RATS/EAT > attestations. This phone is just one example. Other devices, like car= s, > may be similar. I just wanted to +1 your comments (10 weeks later). Not every use of RATS protocol mechanism will be a typical TCG secure-boot/trusted-boot use case.=20 > If there is a normative or descriptive text saying a root of trust is > required to generate an attestation, then we have to redefine root of > trust to so that Android apps are roots of trust. This is very counter > to the normal definition of root of trust. By common definition the > root of trust of the above phone would be the TEE. Such a redefinition > for RATS would be very confusing. So I don=E2=80=99t think normative = text > should require a root of trust. ... > I know that large parts of the TCG and TEE worlds have the root of > trust as a fundamental part of their architectures. It makes sense > there. However, these groups fundamentally work on the security > internals of end points. The IETF does not. It focuses on on-the-wire > security. Thus, it makes sense that orientations around end-point > internal security implementation is different. Some of what goes in > the TCG and TEE worlds doesn=E2=80=99t carry over to the IETF. I have an image of a network map (with a cloud of course), and at the boundary into the device, inside the box, it says, "Here be (roots of) Dragon (trust)" > I know reorienting the RATS architecture draft to not hinge on roots = of > trust is a big upheaval, but I think it is necessary. I don't recall your comments getting any on this thread. =2D-=20 ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh network= s [=20 ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect= [=20 ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [=20 =09 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEERK+9HEcJHTJ9UqTMlUzhVv38QpAFAl2bLzYACgkQlUzhVv38 QpDopAf9EfSZD2D+3z034bIapMcrySB1146SpHI2EGLmdr8KOiHVuqpqe221Elbn Yv1SR5jUxGCgUANRk0W9arVH0eucCEFRvePdk/T2694WhJBKv05m/XDjyMYbHBv6 87YSnuURxM73MwmVWzJtM98UKz+wrKq+eE4uyFrZdUzrnixZw8kv4Ghyrf3MkcVB owA7kMqvqIBcsdjiRcwUaeHO8ms/n3lrf3u+Q7HtevO4qXq4cK5hQJSadPA+KE9V iyxZANRt1tnVc6GiqcoR+7WKRqpcMJGfee481X/8U6QcHg5rCBa3GUHW+iC3TRXn 7Ef+Q2CUvtS3GpfWAT6q/NYbwPh4GA== =KJ6a -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Mon Oct 7 05:29:51 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A2BF120086 for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 05:29:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.435 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.435 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_SBL_CSS=3.335, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ES6BlGt6hnXs for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 05:29:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [IPv6:2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:de77]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D189412004E for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 05:29:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (unknown [80.233.45.41]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 43E0F1F47F; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 12:29:47 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 8FD3A337D; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 13:50:37 +0200 (CEST) From: Michael Richardson To: Thomas Fossati , "rats\@ietf.org" In-reply-to: <317CFA0E-B9E7-4276-ADAC-1201D603F46E@arm.com> References: <5F1B5780-99AD-4CE0-921B-36B6D7D0B882@island-resort.com> <317CFA0E-B9E7-4276-ADAC-1201D603F46E@arm.com> Comments: In-reply-to Thomas Fossati message dated "Tue, 16 Jul 2019 08:13:27 -0000." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2019 13:50:37 +0200 Message-ID: <31841.1570449037@dooku.sandelman.ca> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Please file issues with the EAT draft in GitHub X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2019 12:29:50 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thomas Fossati wrote: > If we want to go this way -which is fine by me- maybe we should have a > parallel discussion on procedures (e.g., consensus, issue labelling, > etc.) > See [1] for a few dimensions to take into consideration, and also may= be > worth taking a look at how the QUIC [2] and HTTP [3] working groups, > which are heavily Github based, organise themselves. Hi, I don't think that we did this. I would like to suggest that ten minutes of the virtual interim tomorrow be spent on: > [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thomson-github-bcp-00#section-4 as we likely need to adapt the labels for our use. (To date, all my internet-draft + github issue use has been internal to design teams) =2D-=20 ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh network= s [=20 ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect= [=20 ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [=20 =09 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEERK+9HEcJHTJ9UqTMlUzhVv38QpAFAl2bJo0ACgkQlUzhVv38 QpCJoQgAkxnJaWK/EVMpaWzP/84LQPoioehy79RtHBQlLUgYJeS7Sr6ZuPtT9cwl neXKVPg/x+RGH/qItcJohYsD6xN9ObH9WOyYtfxXiKROOna6a45QPD0gX8ntBP7x XDu6FLk8HH+62mAlOVCcoK0QoXnGLb+x4o8Grx8fvff1OljhyF8QD6cucPT8AlgW pfHsT76EU//DT2k1gIFZbf9w0S+ceJiqyMf0WGhsqSQBVcvGOftqE2RGAExssVIc TX9SkMlb6EsIHl74FjeBfjP1HBBxuJhCr/L6bLZoh3RHooL4Zci9elpmTegXaRb+ 5xqjdO7h9tAbooFwjZoQu+mKX6IuCQ== =Mued -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Mon Oct 7 05:32:16 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62C5B1200CC for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 05:32:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 69NbRCImAfIB for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 05:32:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [176.58.120.209]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EE3A71200B1 for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 05:32:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (unknown [80.233.45.41]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 346BA1F47F; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 12:32:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id F14EB2B6B; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 14:32:56 +0200 (CEST) From: Michael Richardson To: "Oliver\, Ian \(Nokia - FI\/Espoo\)" cc: "rats\@ietf.org" In-reply-to: References: Comments: In-reply-to "Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" message dated "Mon, 15 Jul 2019 08:57:23 -0000." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2019 14:32:56 +0200 Message-ID: <1855.1570451576@dooku.sandelman.ca> Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] Dynamic Systems in IETF RATS (was Re: 3 Use cases) X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2019 12:32:14 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) wrote: > Dynamic Systems > All current integrity mechanism assume a certain degree of fixed > properties, eg: TPM's CRTM/SRTM, and known configurations. A case > exists where a set of, say, IoT devices each with integrity > measurements are attested by some Edge node. The Edge node may combine > the IoT device measurements into a single measurement (eg: Merkel > Tree). If the configuration of IoT device changes, particuarly in > relation to availability of device, then this combined measurement wi= ll > change. This changed measurement however may be a valid configuration. > For example, in a medical case, the set of measurement devices may be > rapidly changing due to necessity of network provisioning, device > availabiltiy etc, but the permutations of devices may still be valid. So you are describing a system where there is an assembly of devices. I have a few questions and want to offer a two categories: 1) the network's view of the devices is transparent. That is, each device in the assembly is reachable by the network either through L2-bridging, L3-routing (facilited maybe by DHCPv6-PD), or because all devices are just connected to the same "wifi" or LLN. 2) the network's view of the devices is opaque: the network only sees some gateway device and perhaps all interaction is via an application layer g= ateway. Case (2) seems that the layer of indirection means the assembly gateway/controller should probably be a relying party for the devices, and should communicate it's configuration to an attester in order to valida= te it's configuration. The network would see the resulting attestion of the aggregate. I don't see anything surprising or new here. Just a recursive application of RATS. Case (1) is therefore the more interesting case, I think. I imagine, yes, some health care situation where the assembly is the hospit= al room, and the devices are the individual monitors. The room needs to attest to it's ability to deal/collect the correct/complete set of information, and one can see that the failure (or the deplection) of some device leads to the room being "unviable", and requiring attention. I also was thinking about an assembly that is a passenger-rail coach arrang= ed in a set. Each has a series of safety sensors that the engine must interrogate directly. But, it's not necessary for every sensor in every coa= ch to be functional, as there is some redundancy, not just within each vehicle, but also because there are multiple vehicles. =3D=3D=3D In thinking about this, I also thought of some sf movie (Expanse, Star Trek, Star Wars), where sensors and sub-systems get blown up/overloaded, and need to be patched. Chewbacca is waiting for the attestation system to agree th= at all parts are installed correctly, and Han and R2D2 are effecting repairs..= . A very dynamical system; but you don't get to lightspeed until is sure it won= 't just kill everyone onboard. ... Scotty: "Captain! I canna give you warp speed until the wee attestations se= ttle." =2D-=20 ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh network= s [=20 ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect= [=20 ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [=20 =09 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEERK+9HEcJHTJ9UqTMlUzhVv38QpAFAl2bMHgACgkQlUzhVv38 QpClhAf+I6RheLUz+g370iNHizS25GsNZtKqt4BvZHsOIkHlrzoab3vsSYCZFPdj srIXon9Jj4R98eSn03A0x/zLJmwywx7bnrUoNVt4cwLxgJB8753kuIgmt1M/Solx bBf6ooWNa+RpoksvoL0nCLyd0PBrwBd9evqh1RotzE0M+SM5xjngIlH8ArA25b4z wIERU3WaBhFilQN6y5U5XUxWDMtB8xyb1/QyiWX3iJrGzYcXjxnYd83xxKq67WQb H7UNTygj2e82KABpyJ7YqZ7keJkf1d4wPigua/2OaxZMsDgrOUy1gUvACmupTlsm 8GLVAUyon0u5C6tS6miK29wWLeyuXQ== =mjh+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Mon Oct 7 05:32:52 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F55D1200CC for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 05:32:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l_ZdlkI83sck for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 05:32:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [176.58.120.209]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EAA9B1200B1 for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 05:32:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (unknown [80.233.45.41]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B0BD71F47F; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 12:32:47 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 34B852B6B; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 14:33:34 +0200 (CEST) From: Michael Richardson To: "Oliver\, Ian \(Nokia - FI\/Espoo\)" cc: "rats\@ietf.org" In-reply-to: References: Comments: In-reply-to "Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" message dated "Mon, 15 Jul 2019 08:57:23 -0000." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2019 14:33:34 +0200 Message-ID: <1882.1570451614@dooku.sandelman.ca> Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] Supply Chain Attestation (was Re: 3 Use cases) X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2019 12:32:51 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable {sorry for the time-warp email, responding to you was important to me} Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) wrote: > Supply Chain Attestation > A device is shipped from an OEM via some delivery mechanism and is > received by a customer. The customer requires assurance that the devi= ce > has not been tampered with. This differs from the usual attestation > scenarios between a device/element and attestation server/verifier in > that this requires knowledge of the partial or full configuration of > the device being shipped and configured before introduction into the > customer's environment. > This use case then requires interaction between two attestation points > to ensure that the integrity of the device has not changed with regar= ds > to a) the device, b) the original [possibly partial] configuration, c) > the device manufacturer's measurements and d) the receiver - customer= 's > - measurements.. There are quite a number of entities that are looking for the attestation that involves not the device, but the configuration as well. I think that this fits into 5.1: Device Capabilities/Firmware Attestion. I think that the need for sensitivity to configuration is generally somethi= ng that the TCG RIV work: The TCG RIV Reference Document addresses the problem of knowing if a n= etworking device should be part of a network, if it belongs to the operator, and if it = is RUNNING APPROPRIATE SOFTWARE. Guy has posted their document as draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attesta= tion, which=20 makes it much more accessible if you aren't a TCG member (I'm not). You allude (but are perhaps not explicit enough) in your second paragraph that there is some interaction between different attesters to generate the required set of claims needed. Do you imagine that this is done via multip= le signatures on a claim set, or some kind of nested claim structure, or perha= ps use of passport claim for one part, followed by a background-check style process for the second. (Dave Thaler's slides included that option too) =2D-=20 ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh network= s [=20 ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect= [=20 ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [=20 =09 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEERK+9HEcJHTJ9UqTMlUzhVv38QpAFAl2bMJ0ACgkQlUzhVv38 QpAimQf/WsPzD6UjSi4s/iSBxNqYvFHzfk2ygsCyrEnbr3+8EG3SpAwc0FxBi45j jyYznMpE9S+FK143eFWLU3tK1Mby+nIshthBx6rqwAFOl5GnAGo5uA9zYUP6C/j6 gXpVmdcFbIk6VbQc5s2wNXCevEfFMlsENbGCUcKMbFmUL7h4Bu3YIRCDw9uftpt3 g/rxPIUjBwfr2mCeMAwl3BUssCMufMzqtaWZdqP52nrSULC19q5G81GlcnxCg042 s6xK2gkma7HVeh0v3FvlIh23Og27cQEMtydEYqNyV0RV/UhFgLBDg8Z/HTga57rP QfbAljeJX4j5FXD3QzwmhxQvd1ePTg== =FUX4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Mon Oct 7 05:35:21 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B90C1200CD for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 05:35:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.435 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.435 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_SBL_CSS=3.335, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8Ce_ES1gKpIU for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 05:35:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [IPv6:2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:de77]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 539E3120169 for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 05:35:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (unknown [80.233.45.41]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 025CC1F488; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 12:35:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 3DBE732E9; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 13:01:40 +0200 (CEST) From: Michael Richardson To: Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay cc: rats@ietf.org In-reply-to: References: Comments: In-reply-to Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay message dated "Wed, 10 Jul 2019 13:53:41 -0400." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2019 13:01:40 +0200 Message-ID: <30566.1570446100@dooku.sandelman.ca> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] RATS use cases review X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2019 12:35:19 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay wrote: > I took a careful read of the use cases document. I notices that > Sections 5.1 - 5.6.2 each are variations on the themes of attesting to > a device's: ... > In this light, the right approach is to organize the document around > the information that is being attested (the above list, plus end-user > information (section 5.6.3), geographic attestation (section 5.7), and > connectivity attestation (section 5.8)), with perhaps additional > information on how these types of attestation can be combined in > support of things like, say, critical infrastructure security, etc. > What does the work group think? This thread didn't go very far, unfortunately. I've spent quite a few hours since thinking about your suggestion. In many ways, the Thursday morning side-meeting went in the other direction, providing new situations which differed from existing use cases only in the severity. As I explain in another email, I have added a set of attributes to each use case, being; - Who will use it: - Attestation type: (passport or background check) - Attesting Party - Relying Party - Claims used =20=20=20=20=20=20=20 The claims used are all TBD at this point. As I said at the meeting in March, I don't want to do ontology up-front, but rather to just collect all sorts of things, even if they seem to overlap. Some of Guy's suggestions (in a PDF he sent me) also related to refactoring some use cases, and while I actually agree with his suggestion, I still want to avoid that. =2D-=20 ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh network= s [=20 ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect= [=20 ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [=20 =09 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEERK+9HEcJHTJ9UqTMlUzhVv38QpAFAl2bGxMACgkQlUzhVv38 QpBSkAf/WgI1Y30/NPTmcuMT5wTAfuLgGmtfhZS4rk5Sue5V0PZUvI0hgKk7sbO7 xY/O/uZ1S9zSyT/KvQPHCF1VYlfalFQH94xUb2PoCD6cjyeGQYUWEFEQQfJvA1tU Lol5LIHsIlTvoSXXoX7824OBGbt09sXW6g8HXnUAEmahMb7IZi+GvGZ3fvnmXA15 CRCOxDf5CUJhqN1jWwr8mHvlChtX6sosIysCu4CCX9PwCLfQb5XlPLbxC2R+zNXT VOl0OOq7hHdYsmNvm7kEchVG2jlhhedf8huHxrkF1bgS6xlk13LFwg6ZLQ2HNM6D L8YuryuDYgol1wvKb/UacnxdINuAlA== =+F3F -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Mon Oct 7 05:35:28 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40918120804 for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 05:35:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5ai-WRNJ5t94 for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 05:35:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [176.58.120.209]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 446CB1200B1 for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 05:35:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (unknown [80.233.45.41]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F240C1F485; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 12:35:15 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id DB6FB335B; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 13:39:39 +0200 (CEST) From: Michael Richardson To: "Oliver\, Ian \(Nokia - FI\/Espoo\)" cc: "rats\@ietf.org" In-reply-to: References: Comments: In-reply-to "Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" message dated "Mon, 15 Jul 2019 08:57:23 -0000." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2019 13:39:39 +0200 Message-ID: <31165.1570448379@dooku.sandelman.ca> Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] Data Attestation (was Re: 3 Use cases) X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2019 12:35:19 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) wrote: > Data Attestation > A piece of data received from a trusted element may itself contain > information about the configuration of that device when that data was > received. This might be a single measurement or a combination of > measurements over time bounded by a session or transacition. > In this use case we continue the chain-of-trust up from the device > firmware/operating environment to the data. This enables that once a > data packet is received, it's integrity can be checked (cf: JWT) and > this information also be traced to the device that produced that > data. The data and device then can be attested together. This use case seems similar to the the geographic cases, but also to the FI= DO use cases, where one needs to know the state of the device that took the biometric reading in order to know if the biometric is useful. Can I ask you to fill in my template: Use case name:=20=20 Who will use it:=20=20 Attesting Party:=20=20 Relying Party:=20=20 Attestation type: Passport or Background Check Claims used:=20=20 Description: =2D-=20 ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh network= s [=20 ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect= [=20 ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [=20 =09 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEERK+9HEcJHTJ9UqTMlUzhVv38QpAFAl2bI/sACgkQlUzhVv38 QpDTNQf6A1IHBiRDxjewMVAIFsw5ARg7GpZOl46fiGZE8LJXQL0xM/ILZxhS9JCC C79QHB+jb+oEwH9Shu2CS77kA+PkfrEwiPYGaCOX+ozQjY3FSLSmmnfPQMnSjwB4 b7cNKis0Pv+vl0lIYH3Ant0udHkvObV6gA4BquXPX/wzdW0wjoQogro2hJZZhley AHgHqNDK3+J4GTm5qziVYnUy0SdvDiQeRZEowzb4UYsdD2rZbfKFXSV/4TURWi0d SxtGKWM6086QoVI5QAlAth4onZcRjt4+o2N6y9uLXPcJ22AFdJhJgZrhxn+dSEfc de3WouRkvbdSPVL2cbhYmuhgnq1XKQ== =/ew1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Mon Oct 7 05:43:21 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44394120099 for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 05:43:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nX-w7fxbNwoS for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 05:43:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [176.58.120.209]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2B815120020 for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 05:43:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (unknown [80.233.45.41]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 096081F48A; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 12:35:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id BF12F32C7; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 12:54:35 +0200 (CEST) From: Michael Richardson To: Dave Thaler cc: "rats\@ietf.org" In-reply-to: References: <12503.1552447661@localhost> <58E37DB5-098C-4387-9A52-4AECD0F69F25@island-resort.com> <6495.1553219901@dooku.sandelman.ca> <507.1553725386@dooku.sandelman.ca> <24C0968B-32B0-4EF1-99C8-61D3F0955BA1@intel.com> <793F9A34-050F-4914-AF4B-08C072730A06@island-resort.com> <19652.1553943890@dooku.sandelman.ca> <79ccb2d7-09a3-913d-f47d-1e702a23b341@gmail.com> <29183.1560536152@localhost> <9a7e3efe-b021-f255-4afd-649ea0d5772d@gmail.com> <19489.1560973504@localhost> <404.1562351963@localhost> <13070.1562624183@localhost> Comments: In-reply-to Dave Thaler message dated "Mon, 08 Jul 2019 23:05:02 -0000." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2019 12:54:35 +0200 Message-ID: <30481.1570445675@dooku.sandelman.ca> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] More use cases for draft-richardson-rats-usecases-00 X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2019 12:43:19 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable {catching up on older emails} Dave Thaler wrote: >> > * Confidential ML model: Microsoft talked about this category of u= se >> > cases at the recent Microsoft //build conference. >>=20 >> Is a reference to the conference itself the right thing? > No, you can delete that sentence. That was just a FYI, doesn't need = to > be in any doc. It will be gone in -06. >> How is this different from the media and DRM situation? > Yes it's probably similar in many ways. The players and ecosystem are > different, with different legal protections (or lack thereof) in > various jurisdictions though, so I consider it a different use case. I think that this is reasonable. I also wonder if it might differ in the passport/background-check mechanism? >> > * Critical infrastructure: when a protocol operation can affect so= me >> > critical system, the device attached to the critical >>=20 >> This one seems rather abstract to me. > The others are primarily about access to data, or network access. Th= is > one is about access to local peripherals. I'd like you to speculate on passport vs background-check for this. I think it would be passport myself. =2D-=20 ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh network= s [=20 ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect= [=20 ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [=20 =09 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEERK+9HEcJHTJ9UqTMlUzhVv38QpAFAl2bGWsACgkQlUzhVv38 QpCpBgf9FDWtyX4ILYXbYmMh5LchJq9VJoWxwW4y291Ms6Bef31J0voThMAeLV88 II0XBOfbeK+lDTwRGkDHSgUwjVsxVmSc6ChsZAMIKwePdrhNpfiSJ6AoyJ4hQvkf WTFuaJzRIej8QNTKDPAS8VJa/WRjVg/6dj3HDPfz30KjsZ8kRTOUeribGX3EB+2Q ZYZDgk4CZ+bpmlpdOKuYTQyA9MEP0lZPzTI+Povpn0EyISxe43GiqBe59xV1MZfx 25O4UViBTfrMGDOp4TbIwTmH8BwDurWP7gWS2KjRNbCoa+NGttMn607OUrdpPdlb qTX0hewKeG81Tnr4z0eWe2y7SH/eTQ== =FvGC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Mon Oct 7 06:43:44 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B99CC1200B9 for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 06:43:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xew5i80fKsKG for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 06:43:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [176.58.120.209]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9CB1912008F for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 06:43:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (unknown [80.233.32.253]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ACB611F456 for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 13:43:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 02576773; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 15:44:22 +0200 (CEST) From: Michael Richardson To: rats@ietf.org In-reply-to: <157037815843.6647.15092860571598061057.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> References: <157037815843.6647.15092860571598061057.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Comments: In-reply-to internet-drafts@ietf.org message dated "Sun, 06 Oct 2019 09:09:18 -0700." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2019 15:44:22 +0200 Message-ID: <5883.1570455862@dooku.sandelman.ca> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] New Version Notification for draft-richardson-rats-usecases-05.txt X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2019 13:43:43 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, I pushed a -05 version last night. Chairs, some slides for Tuesday are at: https://www.sandelman.ca/SSW/ietf/meeting/ietf105/ietf105-interim2_useca= ses.pdf and I have uploaded to the meeting under the "Propose Slides" Summary: 1) I have added the template that I discussed back in March to most of the use cases. Some subcases do not yet have the template; that should indicate that I have not as many definite opinions about them. 2) In the template, I have added "Attestation Type", with the possible values "passport" or "background-check". I rely on a future edition of the architecture to define these terms, or pick new ones, or expand to set to include a third or fourth option. (I don't know what they would b= e) I also rely upon the architecture document to decide if "Attestation Typ= e" is an appropriate name for this attribute. 3) In going through this, I have observed that some use cases that seemed to be the same may not be based upon the Attestation Type! 4) I expect to spin -06 very soon, maybe this week. I found a use case in my todo list relating to DNS privacy after I pushed -05, and it will be in -06. If you feel that -05 does not reflect something importa= nt that you said at the side meeting, then I agree with you. I have found it very difficult to bring the content of that discussion into the document! 5) I have replaced the TCG member-only document with pointer to Guy's document, and there are a bunch of additional references add/updated. 6) I have emptied my RATS email box of stuff that had accumulated, spamming all of you with conversations that did not, in my opinion, reach a concl= usion. =2D-=20 ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh network= s [=20 ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect= [=20 ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [=20 =09 =20=20=20 =20=20=20=20 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEERK+9HEcJHTJ9UqTMlUzhVv38QpAFAl2bQTYACgkQlUzhVv38 QpBAZgf/UBFlzGv9ruwSHeIUj4cbna7MeosLKiH5Lc2n4Qo+x/6x5BvAoE6Waa88 hrN/151pf6s2JypHC8zckvDCBq++0fL3Utur1TCFMbU1p4UXgPqW7yPdXzB2ECFu 7i7UGhPttsXmvddoHcNF3uEgucmLuN91/1Mpwj/7ZsbDtJXiPvkqAXvc7oEZT32F 6OXeOTurejrJRHpQ678tTx/sSzzYPlDl5Qp8+D3Y7EfL3ZS6jdDYqsvzFOL5lBZ6 jYvMRdHYiAxeN92YoEQ9am8MBygem0oBFJJo0yuatwjM9eVA8h6dxULd5jnN9tnU xi3HV/znlFC99PaeHIqMjPWuaKkK3Q== =Q/bK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Mon Oct 7 06:55:57 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69E7D1200CD; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 06:55:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.435 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.435 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_SBL_CSS=3.335, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q1FMhpwGHGak; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 06:55:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [IPv6:2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:de77]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ABE4E1200CC; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 06:55:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (unknown [80.233.32.253]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 12D721F456; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 13:55:52 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 34EC11BBA; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 15:56:39 +0200 (CEST) From: Michael Richardson To: Laurence Lundblade cc: "Nancy Cam-Winget \(ncamwing\)" , "rats\@ietf.org" , "teep\@ietf.org" In-reply-to: <8CF426EA-B2E7-44FA-A5C6-888E54DE641B@island-resort.com> References: <79E5AD05-85F9-47F6-936F-E5BB5762DB83@cisco.com> <8CF426EA-B2E7-44FA-A5C6-888E54DE641B@island-resort.com> Comments: In-reply-to Laurence Lundblade message dated "Fri, 23 Aug 2019 12:03:10 -0700." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2019 15:56:39 +0200 Message-ID: <6181.1570456599@dooku.sandelman.ca> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] [Teep] RATS Virtual meeting (1st hour with TEEP) X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2019 13:55:57 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Laurence Lundblade wrote: > I think the FIDO and Android Key Store use cases need to be as > important and prominent as the TEEP use case. FIDO and Android are > clear successes and deployed in millions of devices. Similarly network > function (router) attestation is pretty important.=20 > So I=E2=80=99d prefer: > 30 minutes on data / info model > 30 minutes on end-end trust, =E2=80=9Cattester" and root of trust > 30 minutes on TEEP This was a request for the first virtual interim, I think. I don't have the link handy for tomorrow, but I don't think we are doing this. I think that the need to go over this is still open. How can we improve the FIDO and Android Key Store use case explanations? =2D-=20 ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh network= s [=20 ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect= [=20 ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [=20 =09 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEERK+9HEcJHTJ9UqTMlUzhVv38QpAFAl2bRBYACgkQlUzhVv38 QpAHDQf8CQvBs7s2unq2ZC918T3oQv1e6gmmumyZXp+ogLFNNfK9N5hpHBHlHZif ZxlBhXOv5nHJ2INpwReAeEvN1NrKc9hqrV8SeQop+ks33wq6YcDgPwY6HdmPIqst yKLEUmXnu1dcqrY+ZSAakN/naB7OD21CdJAYADM0nPVsY1MN+n0oILLHlEGe9Pf9 UKl8AFVHUJE/T+FPkdP9vsAoYP+TYY6kXxQlrUNS9FxH+t/NmUvGwczSn25d2kod U+W7rvk8t2tZMtXGMHZmeMErHlxMfr+wENiKv+7AgWRwyJiOy2JBME465AyqzN2v cA5YIsX+GtNl2V1AE2vFNoraHfEybQ== =weJ/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Mon Oct 7 09:08:49 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23D77120169 for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 09:08:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SOukUjp7HyQ7 for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 09:08:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x22e.google.com (mail-oi1-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8D86C12011C for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 09:08:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x22e.google.com with SMTP id o205so12112177oib.12 for ; Mon, 07 Oct 2019 09:08:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=NO7TLaJ4Aldz5Dx6GL4SjS676tjTNzhPLMjs5D8wQ8I=; b=XEwad1C+ufh7m3P/MgfZ6XBDtWvJSjSbjTlYzaThjDqdpTv0xPkUK7WAJ04BP/ynBZ +tsbp2ShDYnAokT/G4B7MsFmd4FojtFKnlG4GOpE7ai4zWIYrKiTDnxx8gSUXc0M9JLA BOo3eGl6QrFPvo9HmNcSgSWWKEVQvfXera3n8S0rZkrVVn1eh4r+sTiFbhFSOT2L28Nq 5xL1nhxa+9vFZ/RVYsF3Kvsq1esT4vjaeAWk0Il0C+HhrjwOHoPmB/JcA58yC/iNc4Wd 1ZEPGUbQiWnmXx9KY4OzI6/bxNboZ55snkUkKielj+u8X+JiZmUQAWQmQKEeU9jhg94f cetA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=NO7TLaJ4Aldz5Dx6GL4SjS676tjTNzhPLMjs5D8wQ8I=; b=I5anZFrr2HEvvsDGXjcvtrzyQ2LHbhITfjFzcbF2MQYzBhqDyeXAWH4x6CYPJLkSYF rLifYlytXf5OU43xOcCvM4+mkOvScDHoNnxRuVX4pUotWTl6uYZwBOGchZ+/w5UcXYLN W9hXrLh7HNKD8uAMPZa2hTI+m5iE9gCE3cdq3TcKUKT7ULXY0bKxDJ7PbYpe+U6ychV9 /rgPNmfcWsso4j2SRKD4L25piMjlNTjzKz8zrbSsJ5EQvbUM9pbZrkB5EOhtj+2uXlTl K8hhteVGs49/d1HHJTbjHuVcwsYSnI6gnyEHtzEDMa61akJP64U3A0ay8KR8Yf8pcOnx 7cjQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWRGsLp6qv5lLNrP45F+xR9uif7rHD1YKM6g1qaYudyBVhuky2H fM1jpaMthfK4bBYnHbXIlweyOptqJztygPwjZlY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwL4WY+2MDD2wVPTlT//OpemR+yqG4NY7H/J9tCtdszsTFKIfcfCrE1XiL0mhP8gHBD85PwwxcIgcbV7RtF3no= X-Received: by 2002:aca:b142:: with SMTP id a63mr11507oif.119.1570464524838; Mon, 07 Oct 2019 09:08:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1882.1570451614@dooku.sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: <1882.1570451614@dooku.sandelman.ca> From: Kathleen Moriarty Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 12:08:09 -0400 Message-ID: To: Michael Richardson Cc: "Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" , "rats@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000022ae7d059454442c" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Supply Chain Attestation (was Re: 3 Use cases) X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2019 16:08:48 -0000 --00000000000022ae7d059454442c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 8:32 AM Michael Richardson wrote: > > {sorry for the time-warp email, responding to you was important to me} > > Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) wrote: > > Supply Chain Attestation > > > A device is shipped from an OEM via some delivery mechanism and is > > received by a customer. The customer requires assurance that the > device > > has not been tampered with. This differs from the usual attestation > > scenarios between a device/element and attestation server/verifier in > > that this requires knowledge of the partial or full configuration of > > the device being shipped and configured before introduction into the > > customer's environment. > > > This use case then requires interaction between two attestation > points > > to ensure that the integrity of the device has not changed with > regards > > to a) the device, b) the original [possibly partial] configuration, > c) > > the device manufacturer's measurements and d) the receiver - > customer's > > - measurements.. > > There are quite a number of entities that are looking for the attestation > that involves not the device, but the configuration as well. > > I think that this fits into 5.1: Device Capabilities/Firmware Attestion. > I think that the need for sensitivity to configuration is generally > something > that the TCG RIV work: > The TCG RIV Reference Document addresses the problem of knowing if a > networking device > should be part of a network, if it belongs to the operator, and if it > is RUNNING > APPROPRIATE SOFTWARE. > > Guy has posted their document as > draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation, which > makes it much more accessible if you aren't a TCG member (I'm not). > > You allude (but are perhaps not explicit enough) in your second paragraph > that there is some interaction between different attesters to generate the > required set of claims needed. Do you imagine that this is done via > multiple > signatures on a claim set, or some kind of nested claim structure, or > perhaps > use of passport claim for one part, followed by a background-check style > process for the second. (Dave Thaler's slides included that option too) > I would guess a nested claim structure so that you could 'wrap' a claim set and signature of code that is relied upon. Having a standard format and evaluation method (TEEP) for this use case is then very important across vendors int he supply chain. Your other suggestion could work as well, but the consistent ablity to validate will be very important. I'd like to follow the discussion and thoughts of others. Best regards, Kathleen > -- > ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh > networks [ > ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network > architect [ > ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on > rails [ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > -- Best regards, Kathleen --00000000000022ae7d059454442c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


    =
    On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 8:32 AM Michae= l Richardson <mcr@sandelman.ca&g= t; wrote:

    {sorry for the time-warp email, responding to you was important to me}

    Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com> wrote: =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Supply Chain Attestation

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > A device is shipped from an OEM via some delivery mechan= ism and is
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > received by a customer. The customer requires assurance = that the device
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > has not been tampered with. This differs from the usual = attestation
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > scenarios between a device/element and attestation serve= r/verifier in
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > that this requires knowledge of the partial or full conf= iguration of
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > the device being shipped and configured before introduct= ion into the
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > customer's environment.

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > This use case then requires interaction between two atte= station points
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > to ensure that the integrity of the device has not chang= ed with regards
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > to a) the device, b) the original [possibly partial] con= figuration, c)
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > the device manufacturer's measurements and d) the re= ceiver - customer's
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > - measurements..

    There are quite a number of entities that are looking for the attestation that involves not the device, but the configuration as well.

    I think that this fits into 5.1: Device Capabilities/Firmware Attestion. I think that the need for sensitivity to configuration is generally somethi= ng
    that the TCG RIV work:
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The TCG RIV Reference Document addresses the problem of= knowing if a networking device
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0should be part of a network, if it belongs to the opera= tor, and if it is RUNNING
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0APPROPRIATE SOFTWARE.

    Guy has posted their document as draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attesta= tion, which
    makes it much more accessible if you aren't a TCG member (I'm not).=

    You allude (but are perhaps not explicit enough) in your second paragraph that there is some interaction between different attesters to generate the<= br> required set of claims needed.=C2=A0 Do you imagine that this is done via m= ultiple
    signatures on a claim set, or some kind of nested claim structure, or perha= ps
    use of passport claim for one part, followed by a background-check style process for the second. (Dave Thaler's slides included that option too)=

    I would guess a nested claim structure= so that you could 'wrap'=C2=A0 a claim set and signature of code t= hat is relied upon.=C2=A0 Having a standard format and evaluation method (T= EEP) for this use case is then very important across vendors int he supply = chain.=C2=A0 Your other suggestion could work as well, but the consistent a= blity to validate will be very important.=C2=A0 I'd like to follow the = discussion and thoughts of others.=C2=A0=C2=A0

    Bes= t regards,
    Kathleen
    --
    ]=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Never tell me the o= dds!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| ipv6 me= sh networks [
    ]=C2=A0 =C2=A0Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 | network architect=C2=A0 [
    ]=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= mcr@sandelman.ca=C2=A0 http://www.sandelman.ca/=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=A0ruby on rails=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [





    _______________________________________________
    RATS mailing list
    RATS@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats


    --

    Best regards,
    Kathleen
    --00000000000022ae7d059454442c-- From nobody Mon Oct 7 11:34:00 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 616D21200E9 for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 11:33:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bRw3zteaa9sP for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 11:33:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mga12.intel.com (mga12.intel.com [192.55.52.136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3CB561200F5 for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 11:33:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Amp-Result: SKIPPED(no attachment in message) X-Amp-File-Uploaded: False Received: from orsmga004.jf.intel.com ([10.7.209.38]) by fmsmga106.fm.intel.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 07 Oct 2019 11:33:54 -0700 X-ExtLoop1: 1 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.67,269,1566889200"; d="scan'208,217";a="344810319" Received: from orsmsx108.amr.corp.intel.com ([10.22.240.6]) by orsmga004.jf.intel.com with ESMTP; 07 Oct 2019 11:33:54 -0700 Received: from orsmsx156.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.240.22) by ORSMSX108.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.240.6) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.439.0; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 11:33:54 -0700 Received: from orsmsx109.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.11.122]) by ORSMSX156.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.8.15]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 11:33:53 -0700 From: "Smith, Ned" To: Kathleen Moriarty , Michael Richardson CC: "Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" , "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Rats] Supply Chain Attestation (was Re: 3 Use cases) Thread-Index: AQHVfSmKYMgPnUiotk21jzEyn2HuJKdPgTUA Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 18:33:52 +0000 Message-ID: <29358179-382F-4660-B012-0327274343AE@intel.com> References: <1882.1570451614@dooku.sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.1d.0.190908 x-originating-ip: [10.255.94.100] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_29358179382F4660B0120327274343AEintelcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Supply Chain Attestation (was Re: 3 Use cases) X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2019 18:33:59 -0000 --_000_29358179382F4660B0120327274343AEintelcom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bYIu_1GszoXe for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 11:45:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.72.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 12C2712020A for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 11:45:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (mail.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.84.171]) by mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-10) with ESMTPS id x97IjHwM016606 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT); Mon, 7 Oct 2019 20:45:18 +0200 Received: from [192.168.16.50] (79.234.112.245) by mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (141.12.84.171) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.468.0; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 20:45:12 +0200 To: Kathleen Moriarty , Michael Richardson CC: "Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" , "rats@ietf.org" References: <1882.1570451614@dooku.sandelman.ca> From: Henk Birkholz Message-ID: Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 20:45:12 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [79.234.112.245] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Supply Chain Attestation (was Re: 3 Use cases) X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2019 18:45:30 -0000 That brings up an interesting topic. If you want to nest objects/maps in EAT, do you have to define a separate EAT for each layer or can you define nested (potentially multiple) sub-structures as a single EAT flavor/specification? Like a "required nesting that is predefined". I'd assume so, but I think that is not spelled out explicitly - as an EAT can only include nested EATs? Viele Grüße, Henk On 07.10.19 18:08, Kathleen Moriarty wrote: > > > On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 8:32 AM Michael Richardson > wrote: > > > {sorry for the time-warp email, responding to you was important to me} > > Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) > wrote: >     > Supply Chain Attestation > >     > A device is shipped from an OEM via some delivery mechanism > and is >     > received by a customer. The customer requires assurance that > the device >     > has not been tampered with. This differs from the usual > attestation >     > scenarios between a device/element and attestation > server/verifier in >     > that this requires knowledge of the partial or full > configuration of >     > the device being shipped and configured before introduction > into the >     > customer's environment. > >     > This use case then requires interaction between two > attestation points >     > to ensure that the integrity of the device has not changed > with regards >     > to a) the device, b) the original [possibly partial] > configuration, c) >     > the device manufacturer's measurements and d) the receiver - > customer's >     > - measurements.. > > There are quite a number of entities that are looking for the > attestation > that involves not the device, but the configuration as well. > > I think that this fits into 5.1: Device Capabilities/Firmware Attestion. > I think that the need for sensitivity to configuration is generally > something > that the TCG RIV work: >      The TCG RIV Reference Document addresses the problem of > knowing if a networking device >      should be part of a network, if it belongs to the operator, > and if it is RUNNING >      APPROPRIATE SOFTWARE. > > Guy has posted their document as > draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation, which > makes it much more accessible if you aren't a TCG member (I'm not). > > You allude (but are perhaps not explicit enough) in your second > paragraph > that there is some interaction between different attesters to > generate the > required set of claims needed.  Do you imagine that this is done via > multiple > signatures on a claim set, or some kind of nested claim structure, > or perhaps > use of passport claim for one part, followed by a background-check style > process for the second. (Dave Thaler's slides included that option too) > > > I would guess a nested claim structure so that you could 'wrap'  a claim > set and signature of code that is relied upon.  Having a standard format > and evaluation method (TEEP) for this use case is then very important > across vendors int he supply chain.  Your other suggestion could work as > well, but the consistent ablity to validate will be very important.  I'd > like to follow the discussion and thoughts of others. > > Best regards, > Kathleen > > -- > ]               Never tell me the odds!                 | ipv6 mesh > networks [ > ]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works        | network > architect  [ > ] mcr@sandelman.ca > http://www.sandelman.ca/        |   ruby on rails    [ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > > > > -- > > Best regards, > Kathleen > > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > From nobody Mon Oct 7 13:43:54 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62DC312008A for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 13:43:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xaB4VvmlSEuN for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 13:43:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt1-x836.google.com (mail-qt1-x836.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::836]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7D399120020 for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 13:43:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x836.google.com with SMTP id r5so21316070qtd.0 for ; Mon, 07 Oct 2019 13:43:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version:date:subject:message-id :to; bh=FXFewDT6JWA+D1xnRMJeUYd4HdHRjDrq2GzXtcseFik=; b=tFbbVwDPplgujeZe/PGDLKsZCYdz2Kp3BXTrbKa9/Odg2o/HRjk/xO+xDaeQiUkOL7 C1PHymQi9zKObWqHx4DMA3tx5B9U/ED24U+LA+XnVLeEMid1rSAGlmWwneROFGRERNKt u6gnep2uCMWrnnYth2Hi2Mwp1kIlWdqPpS+dbb3cb5YzjcSqzpwZaulN51Y9eeMCWLh+ XV759JuCoiJYAV/6HhRFP9aMdLCmM94eiJR5ZL63R7sMISGhSmqq+haaaJ850c3B50do F8d/Mbhn2/WHnFTdno7zIH+K6kQvlJKk8K+7/eZtzPMMuKF6N5nZUeI9aPqpcStslZYV 5NSg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version:date :subject:message-id:to; bh=FXFewDT6JWA+D1xnRMJeUYd4HdHRjDrq2GzXtcseFik=; b=MCBjaVStuqW0RdjgDtT8Cl+DTOsdUnOKkuz/jNKP63q2Ad50RPD6ymFWnTWXQggszs t/NOU50Ss3otGvHS5COionL0jyXV/4EMk+whDLT6lKjTl3QxOsOzQoiGE0VzVTJXlzkf T5bc9Bwr41q2n6m5Pt8DNmWXhOxjdpszvQIlmX+hl9QejTS2LPW06mFx2qvVB+qarwMJ vJEO8ITPMGx3coe+fbayevUy3pOb8KfXo0v3qP4hAZtjV1ThyXBlFYsJYBpDGEteDZJf NxHEXNx5fJ80tksqz9zwuQUBXlHY9PmGaBYW7fcBJou/8G5Na+X/Uxl51rFmVqQ+DCKu uZ9w== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWE8G/LBL+Z/ACspeixC7ZFUS/WAy/aEHHy4mo5v02zdDrmcKIy 9kR+B39tnJv1qZc5DfuUzCQgtQTPZbk= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqx4B3rZ1TNNQeC85M+OazdL/Bua1ma/uh85u+opFRsGIJ5ANxjaNa/9lR24PzAtiwIK3ggI2A== X-Received: by 2002:ac8:340d:: with SMTP id u13mr31417907qtb.103.1570481029157; Mon, 07 Oct 2019 13:43:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.4] (146-115-73-78.s5196.c3-0.arl-cbr1.sbo-arl.ma.cable.rcncustomer.com. [146.115.73.78]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a134sm8365923qkc.95.2019.10.07.13.43.48 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 07 Oct 2019 13:43:48 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-9B31F079-0254-432C-8CA2-7D96BFE3B177 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Kathleen Moriarty Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 16:43:47 -0400 Message-Id: To: Michael Richardson , rats@ietf.org X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (17A860) Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] Use case document -05 X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2019 20:43:53 -0000 --Apple-Mail-9B31F079-0254-432C-8CA2-7D96BFE3B177 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Michael, I just did a quick review and sent one nit separately before coming up with s= ome more clarification questions/suggestions. Nit in 5.1.4: The infrastructure is in control of a single operator and is already trust= ed. I think you meant =E2=80=9Cis in the control=E2=80=9D. =20 Otherwise, we are in trouble. :-) Also, what is being validated? The running and configured software from roo= t of trust and/or the software from vendors as provided? 5.1.5 Would each system really do the assessments themselves? Wouldn=E2=80=99t it= be easier to have a relying party (management station/repository) of collec= ted information from each administrative domain? How do you scale the inter= actions in a highly complex data center scenario with virtualized systems th= at are also isolating tenants in container clusters for instance? 5.1.6 - my question above spills into this one. Also note the typo of having medium in this one. 5.5 critical infrastructure=20 Are you providing protection from malware by only allowing specific signers o= r specific attested code or both forms of white listing? Or something else= ? I=E2=80=99m assuming both forms of white listing and it would be good to e= xplain that if it=E2=80=99s the case. Excellent work on this document! I think we should formally adopt it. Best regards, Kathleen=20 Sent from my mobile device= --Apple-Mail-9B31F079-0254-432C-8CA2-7D96BFE3B177 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Michael,

    I just did a= quick review and sent one nit separately before coming up with some more cl= arification questions/suggestions.

    Nit in 5.1.4:

    The
      infrastructure is in control of a single operator and is already trust=
ed.

    <=
/pre>
    I think y=
ou meant =E2=80=9Cis in the control=E2=80=9D.  

    Otherwise, we are in trouble. :-)

    Also, what is being v=
alidated?  The running and configured software from root of trust and/or the=
 software from vendors as provided?

    5.1.5
    Woul= d each system really do the assessments themselves?  Wouldn=E2=80=99t i= t be easier to have a relying party (management station/repository) of colle= cted information from each administrative domain?  How do you scale the= interactions in a highly complex data center scenario with virtualized syst= ems that are also isolating tenants in container clusters for instance?

    5.1.6 - my question above spills into this one.
    Also note the typo of having medium in this one.

    5.5 critical infrastructure 
    Are you providing protection fr= om malware by only allowing specific signers or specific attested code  = ;or both forms of white listing?  Or something else?  I=E2=80=99m a= ssuming both forms of white listing and it would be good to explain that if i= t=E2=80=99s the case.

    Excellent work on this docume= nt!  I think we should formally adopt it.

    Best= regards,
    Kathleen 


    <= br>
    Sent from my mobile device
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id 15.00.1473.005; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 14:02:58 -0700 From: Giridhar Mandyam To: "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Rats] New RATS Architecture document Thread-Index: AQHVZ9l0CvdpLTeRnUKRQb/BzQqfg6clFv1ggCqIMdA= Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 21:02:58 +0000 Message-ID: <6619cceb1f3b400dbd9dbbce51c6fcfb@NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com> References: <471c785f-1cd8-62ff-431a-075ce9c35058@sit.fraunhofer.de> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.80.80.8] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] New RATS Architecture document X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2019 21:03:05 -0000 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Mon, 7 Oct 2019 15:06:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vvOO17Z5N61z for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 15:06:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.72.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 639A6120073 for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 15:06:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (mail.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.84.171]) by mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-10) with ESMTPS id x97M6AQm024677 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 8 Oct 2019 00:06:11 +0200 Received: from [192.168.16.50] (79.234.112.245) by mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (141.12.84.171) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.468.0; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 00:06:05 +0200 To: Giridhar Mandyam , "rats@ietf.org" References: <471c785f-1cd8-62ff-431a-075ce9c35058@sit.fraunhofer.de> <6619cceb1f3b400dbd9dbbce51c6fcfb@NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com> From: Henk Birkholz Message-ID: <202c09a4-b385-6b7c-cd1d-25562f99850c@sit.fraunhofer.de> Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2019 00:06:04 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6619cceb1f3b400dbd9dbbce51c6fcfb@NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [79.234.112.245] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] New RATS Architecture document X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2019 22:06:20 -0000 Hi Giri, hi list, please find comments and replies in-line. On 07.10.19 23:02, Giridhar Mandyam wrote: > I have read through the latest version of the document. At this time I do not think this document is ready to be the RAts architecture specirfication, and would object to its adoption as a Working Group draft. I do believe the group needs an architecture document, however. So if the editors can address my primary concern - a) below - I would be happy to withdraw my objection. Does that mean the document is not ready for adoption because it is intended to be standards track or does this mean in order to be standards track there are things missing or wrong? > > -Giri Mandyam > > a) I have asked the editors twice on the mailing lists for a justification as to why this is a standards track draft and not an informative one. I have not received an answer, so I assume that there is no reason. Note that comparable documents such as the TEEP architecture document and SUIT architecture document are informative. In order to enable interoperability, a very tight scope of normative prerequisites is imposed on the architectural constituents of RATS by the architecture I-D in the Normative Prerequisite section (that uses BCP14 requirement notation). Additionally, the architecture I-D of the "other" WG that is concerned with security posture of ToE - the SACM WG - is an example for also not being an informative I-D. As far as I can see the normative prerequisites do not conflict with EAT, but support the architectural parts of EAT (which move into the RAT architecture I-D in any case). > > b) "... this document provides normative guidance how to use, create or adopt network protocols that facilitate RATS". So in the context of EAT, does this mean that guidance provided in this document supersedes the EAT, CWT, and JWT specifications? It complements EAT with corresponding definitions. I do not see how it would be possible to supersede CWT or JWT with respect to remote attestation procedures. That seems to a totally different context or am I missing something very obvious here? > > b) "... trustworthiness claims are accompanied by a proof of veracity. Typically, this proof is a cryptographic expression such as a digital signature or a message digest". This is a misleading statement, as it could be interpreted to cover self-signing (see [3] for example), and I don't believe self-signing conveys any indication of trustworthiness. While in a given scope, putting trust in self-signing can absolutely warranted, I think, I also think that was not the intended background for that text passage. Will be fixed by elaborating on that. Self-signing (while not being a signing fool due to, e.g., missing key semantics), should be further discussed though. Again, this text was not phrased with self-signing in mind, I think. > > c) As per h) of my previous review [4], I still cannotAndroid Key Attestation figure out how the concept of delegated attestation (e.g. Sec. 5.4 of [5]) would fit into this architecture. For an informational document, it may not be strictly necessary to specify an architecture that can support delegated attestation since an informational document would likely not be expected to cover all scenarios. Since this is being proposed as a normative specification however, we should ensure that it does not disallow what could be common remote attestation deployments. Agreed, the text is lacking in this regard. Every proposed text with respect to "Android Key Attestation" is welcomed. We did the best we could based on the use cases I-D. > > For instance, as per the diagram in Figure 1, all evidence must be conveyed directly to the verifier and the verifier in turn produces "attestation results" to the RP. But "attestation results" are the "output from the appraisal of Evidence, Known-Good-Values and Endorsements". I take this to mean that attestation results cannot be evidence themselves. However, the delegated attestation model in [5] allows for the appraiser (approximately equivalent to the RP as per the RATS architecture doc) to compose "separate layered or orthogonal attestations, involving different proxies, in order to make a judgment". Figure 1 is the most simple example. We are already working on moving that to section 1.1. It is also not using normative language. No RATS message must move exactly along those edges, as there can be various other ways to compose these workflows (e.g. Dave's work-flows). > > As per Sec. 4.4 RATS Principals, the multiplicity property may allow for multiple verifiers to take on the role of attestation proxies. But multiplicity explicitly calls out that the instances of the principals take on the "same RATS roles". If there are multiple proxies, then it seems that they would be assessing different subsets of evidence and therefore would be occupying different roles. "Same role" does not imply "same task/duty". It is a class of duties. E.g. appraisal of evidence can be split into multiple RATS principals, all taking on the Verifier Role, but appraising different portions of the evidence. The current phrasing seems to be lacking here - this should be more clear, if it reads like "different subsets of evidence require different roles with respect to appraisal of evidence". That is most certainty not the intent. > > d) RATS roles: composition: "RATS Principals possessing different RATS Roles can be combined in to a singleton ...". I can understand some aspects of this property, e.g. combining the RP and Verifier. But why would an attester and/or asserter be combined with a verifier and RP? Do you know of an example? The Opal Storage Specification might be a good example. And RIV is another use case, where this can be the case, I think. > > f) {Sorry to jump back} Sec. 3.1. "A Computing Environment with the capability of remote attestation ... is separate from other Attested Computing Environments (about which attestation evidence is created ...". I could not tell if this definition allowed for solutions such as Android SafetyNet [6], where the rich execution environment (REE) is producing evidence about itself. Is the intention of the RATS Architecture spec that such self-attestations not be considered valid for remote attestation? The definition of attestation in [https://www.w3.org/TR/webauthn/#attestation] states: it "is employed to attest to the provenance of an authenticator and the data it emits". While this is very authentication-centric, first of all, your reference [6] also states that the Android SafetyNet Attestation Statement Format: "does not provide information regarding provenance of the authenticator and its associated data". As a result "platform-provided authenticators SHOULD make use of the Android Key Attestation when available, even if the SafetyNet API is also present." As "statement" in that context seems to be most semantically related to what "Claims" are in RATS, it seems that actually - no, that does not seem to be evidence, but claim sets. In combination with Android Key Attestation, these WebAuth statements seem to become evidence. But I am not an expert on authentication-centric attestation statements. > > g) Sec. 3.2. "The RATS architecture anticipates recursive trustworthiness properties and the need for termination". What is being terminated in this context? If no attesting computational environment can create believable evidence about a system component in a hierarchy of system components in, e.g., a composite device - that is a point where recursive trustworthiness properties terminate (and external endorsement are required). Ned might be able to provide a better example. > > h) Sec. 3.2. nit. "For example, design reviews, manufacturing process audits and physical security." This is not a complete sentence. This is not a complete sentence. Will be fixed. > > i) Sec. 3.3. "RATS architecture defines attestation Roles ..., the messages they exchange, ...". Don't specifications such as EAT already define messaging in part? If so, what would the RATS architecture be defining in addition? That is defined in the section RATS messages. > > [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teep-architecture/. > [2] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-suit-architecture/. > [3] https://www.w3.org/TR/webauthn/#self-attestation. > [4] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/9iIrnD9YixKCuwOGKtvGZIzd_bU. > [5] J. Guttman et al. “”Attestation: Evidence and Trust”. MITRE Technical Report MTR080072. March 2008. https://www.mitre.org/sites/default/files/pdf/07_0186.pdf. > [6] https://www.w3.org/TR/webauthn/#android-safetynet-attestation. IHTH as start! Viele Grüße, Henk > > > -----Original Message----- > From: RATS On Behalf Of Giridhar Mandyam > Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2019 9:29 AM > To: rats@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Rats] New RATS Architecture document > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Henk and other editors of the architecture doc, > > I appreciate the effort put into this latest revision, and I will review it with a fresh eye. > > I do have one overarching question: why is this document listed as 'Standards Track' (as opposed to 'Informational')? I had expressed my concerns about this in an earlier review of the doc: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/9iIrnD9YixKCuwOGKtvGZIzd_bU. > > Since the editors' team is composed of experienced IETF'ers, I assume that there are solid reasons for doing so. If you all have stated them before, I hope you do not mind me requesting that you lay out your reasons again because I seemed to have missed it. > > -Giri > > -----Original Message----- > From: RATS On Behalf Of Henk Birkholz > Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2019 6:13 AM > To: rats@ietf.org > Subject: [Rats] New RATS Architecture document > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Hi all, > > we created a fully revised architecture document that maps and represents the state of the current discussion and the material presented at the last IETF meeting. > > The current Editor's version can be found here: > >> https://ietf-rats.github.io/draft-birkholz-rats-architecture/draft-bir >> kholz-rats-architecture.html > > We will submit a new version the day after the RATS virtual interim. > > TL;DR > Below you can find a list of essential changes & a list of action items still to be addressed. > > > This version of the RATS Architecture document: > > * does not define or uses the terms "root(s) of trust" (RoT) or "Trust Anchor" (TA) at the moment. (Note: It is a fact that the Asserter Role _is_ a TA for the Verifier Role and that an Attester Role _could_ rely on RoTs. But - this content will not go into the main body of this document), > > * does define RATS Roles, Messages, and Principals formerly known as "Actors" (borrowing heavily from ABLP), > > * provides an even more "base" interaction model diagram for the RATS Roles than presented in the last IETF meeting slide deck: > >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/105/materials/slides-105-rats-ses >> sb-rats-architecture-interaction-model-challange-response-yang-module- >> information-module-00.pdf > > * introduces a framework for "level of confidence" in the trustworthiness of an Attester and the endorsement of the protection characteristics of its "Attesting Computing Context", allowing for other entities to use this framework and fill it with, e.g., openly defined levels of confidence metrics, > > * is not based on the primitive of "trust" but the concept of "trustworthiness" as illustrated by the RATS charter, > > * simplifies the definitions of Attester and Verifier that seemed to have caused some unfortunate confusion following the proposal of Giri and starting with commonly-accepted definitions and then justify why they may need to be modified, > > * differentiates between the Attesting Computing Environment and the Attested Computing Environment better, which both are components of an Attester, > > * uses the "Claim" concept as a building block to compose Evidence, Known-Good-Values and Endorsements. Conversely, the "Assertion" concept is dropped in this proposal (as initially suggested by Laurence, IIRC?). > (Note: this was done to simplify the discussion about the information model. Please also note: Due to the {J|C}WT definition of "Claim", a key/value pair is implied, which is already a data model decision and not mandated by an information model), and > > * analogously, now uses the term Known-Good-Values instead of Attestation Assertions. > > > For future versions the authors intent: > > * to elaborate on the use of RATS Principals, including more exemplary > diagrams of RATS Role composition and interaction between RATS > Principals based on the use case document (and by that address a unified > mapping to TEEP, RIV, and models that use EAT), > > * to shift some of the focus on technical-trust as proposed by Thomas. > (the Endorsements provided by an Asserter are a first step into that > direction), > > * still not to define the roots of trust terms nor invent new words for > them :) But - start to reference them on a minimal level and define a > base set of primitives they can provide in order to describe what they > actually are and can do in the context of RATS as proposed by Ira, Simon > and Thomas, > > * to introduce and define a concise scope for layered attestation, > addressing, e.g., the staging of Computing Environments and the > (un-)availability of an Attesting Computing Environment at certain > points of time, or, another example given, addressing the > differentiation of an attested boot sequence of an Attester and an > Attester running TEEs or rich systems for years, > > * to address the change of Roles of a Principal over time as proposed by > Ian, > > * to move the remaining architectural sections in the EAT draft into the > RATS Architecture draft, and > > * to shift some of the focus on the out-of-band trust establishment in > order to illustrate a coherent RATS ecosystem (e.g. the provisioning of > key material is not include in the "base diagram" anymore for now - this > will be more elaborated on in future section of the architecture). > > > Viele Grüße, > > Henk > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > From nobody Mon Oct 7 15:16:32 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51CC71200E3 for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 15:16:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 56o-4kTKyEzN for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 15:16:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.72.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 12321120073 for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 15:16:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (mail.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.84.171]) by mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-10) with ESMTPS id x97MGQZp024846 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 8 Oct 2019 00:16:27 +0200 Received: from [192.168.16.50] (79.234.112.245) by mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (141.12.84.171) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.468.0; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 00:16:21 +0200 To: Giridhar Mandyam , "rats@ietf.org" References: <471c785f-1cd8-62ff-431a-075ce9c35058@sit.fraunhofer.de> <6619cceb1f3b400dbd9dbbce51c6fcfb@NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com> From: Henk Birkholz Message-ID: Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2019 00:16:20 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6619cceb1f3b400dbd9dbbce51c6fcfb@NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [79.234.112.245] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] New RATS Architecture document X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2019 22:16:31 -0000 Hi Giri, I also want to apologize. We discussed this a lot, but still managed somehow not to create an action item out of your question... Sorry! Viele Grüße, Henk On 07.10.19 23:02, Giridhar Mandyam wrote: > I have asked the editors twice on the mailing lists for a justification as to why this is a standards track draft and not an informative one. I have not received an answer, so I assume that there is no reason. 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[Rats] New RATS Architecture document Thread-Index: AQHVZ9l0CvdpLTeRnUKRQb/BzQqfg6clFv1ggCqIMdCAAL1KAP//i9vA Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 22:32:01 +0000 Message-ID: <083dbb8a7ad748f399453566af2eb541@NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com> References: <471c785f-1cd8-62ff-431a-075ce9c35058@sit.fraunhofer.de> <6619cceb1f3b400dbd9dbbce51c6fcfb@NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com> <202c09a4-b385-6b7c-cd1d-25562f99850c@sit.fraunhofer.de> In-Reply-To: <202c09a4-b385-6b7c-cd1d-25562f99850c@sit.fraunhofer.de> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.80.80.8] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] New RATS Architecture document X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , 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PiANCj4gDQo+IFZpZWxlIEdyw7zDn2UsDQo+IA0KPiBIZW5rDQo+IA0KPiANCj4gDQo+IA0KPiAN Cj4gDQo+IF9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+ IFJBVFMgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQo+IFJBVFNAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5v cmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9yYXRzDQo+IF9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+IFJBVFMgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQo+IFJBVFNAaWV0Zi5vcmcN Cj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9yYXRzDQo+IF9fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+IFJBVFMgbWFpbGluZyBs aXN0DQo+IFJBVFNAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0 aW5mby9yYXRzDQo+IA0KDQpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fXw0KUkFUUyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNClJBVFNAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3Lmll dGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vcmF0cw0K From nobody Mon Oct 7 15:41:57 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BE88120048 for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 15:41:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ww90x_mXdseR for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 15:41:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.72.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9CF64120019 for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 15:41:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (mail.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.84.171]) by mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-10) with ESMTPS id x97MfkTn027448 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 8 Oct 2019 00:41:47 +0200 Received: from [192.168.16.50] (79.234.112.245) by mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (141.12.84.171) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.468.0; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 00:41:41 +0200 To: Giridhar Mandyam , "rats@ietf.org" References: <471c785f-1cd8-62ff-431a-075ce9c35058@sit.fraunhofer.de> <6619cceb1f3b400dbd9dbbce51c6fcfb@NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com> <202c09a4-b385-6b7c-cd1d-25562f99850c@sit.fraunhofer.de> <083dbb8a7ad748f399453566af2eb541@NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com> From: Henk Birkholz Message-ID: <9fa3ff77-04a5-3d58-b977-5febc8229967@sit.fraunhofer.de> Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2019 00:41:40 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <083dbb8a7ad748f399453566af2eb541@NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [79.234.112.245] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] New RATS Architecture document X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2019 22:41:56 -0000 I tried to be as quick as possible - hence the typos (I seem to be missing a lot of "be"s...). A document that uses normative requirements terminology is standards track. Only one section of this I-D uses these - the authors tried not to be over-perscriptive, but these are quite essential in order to enable basic interoparbility between different solutions. As we cannot go through all open issues the authors were able to collected thanks to the replies on the list (and thank you all for all the great feedback) tomorrow, I think this is one of the issue we can discuss. If you could vet the one place where normative language is used for tomorrows meeting and highlight the (sub-)issues in there - that would be great! Viele Grüße, Henk On 08.10.19 00:32, Giridhar Mandyam wrote: > Hi Henk, > > Thanks for the quick response. > > I will focus on the standards-track versus informational aspect of the document. For the RAts chairs, please plan on addressing this topic in tomorrow's virtual meeting. > >> Does that mean the document is not ready for adoption because it is intended to be standards track or does this mean in order to be standards track there are things missing or wrong? > > I believe the document should be informational. I have not identified any aspect of the current document which corresponds to an interoperable and testable specification. For instance - there are no protocols being defined, fixed message formats, or mandatory verification procedures. > >> In order to enable interoperability, a very tight scope of normative prerequisites is imposed on the architectural constituents of RATS by the architecture I-D in the Normative Prerequisite section (that use BCP14 requirement notation). > > So does this mean that any RAts deployment that does not strictly conform with the architecture outlined in this document would be considered non-compliant? I hope this architectural model is sufficiently broad to cover all the corner cases then. So far in what I've observed in my review, I am not sure that will be an easy task. > >> Additionally, the architecture I-D of the "other" WG that is concerned with security posture of ToE - the SACM WG - is an example for also not being an informative I-D. > > And I cannot understand why the SACM architecture is not informational either. I do on the other hand understand why the WebRTC sec arch document (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch-20) is normative - there is an extension of SDP (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtcweb-security-arch-20#section-5). > >> As far as I can see the normative prerequisites do not conflict with EAT, but support the architectural parts of EAT (which move into the RAT architecture I-D in any case). > > The architectural aspects of EAT will certainly move into this doc, but they are non-normative - see Sec. 1.3 of https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-rats-eat-01.txt. Note the introductory text: " At least the following three participants exist in all EAT operating models. Some operating models have additional participants." > > -Giri > > -----Original Message----- > From: RATS On Behalf Of Henk Birkholz > Sent: Monday, October 7, 2019 3:06 PM > To: Giridhar Mandyam ; rats@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Rats] New RATS Architecture document > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Hi Giri, > hi list, > > please find comments and replies in-line. > > On 07.10.19 23:02, Giridhar Mandyam wrote: >> I have read through the latest version of the document. At this time I do not think this document is ready to be the RAts architecture specirfication, and would object to its adoption as a Working Group draft. I do believe the group needs an architecture document, however. So if the editors can address my primary concern - a) below - I would be happy to withdraw my objection. > > Does that mean the document is not ready for adoption because it is intended to be standards track or does this mean in order to be standards track there are things missing or wrong? > >> >> -Giri Mandyam >> >> a) I have asked the editors twice on the mailing lists for a justification as to why this is a standards track draft and not an informative one. I have not received an answer, so I assume that there is no reason. Note that comparable documents such as the TEEP architecture document and SUIT architecture document are informative. > > In order to enable interoperability, a very tight scope of normative prerequisites is imposed on the architectural constituents of RATS by the architecture I-D in the Normative Prerequisite section (that uses > BCP14 requirement notation). > > Additionally, the architecture I-D of the "other" WG that is concerned with security posture of ToE - the SACM WG - is an example for also not being an informative I-D. > > As far as I can see the normative prerequisites do not conflict with EAT, but support the architectural parts of EAT (which move into the RAT architecture I-D in any case). > >> >> b) "... this document provides normative guidance how to use, create or adopt network protocols that facilitate RATS". So in the context of EAT, does this mean that guidance provided in this document supersedes the EAT, CWT, and JWT specifications? > > It complements EAT with corresponding definitions. I do not see how it would be possible to supersede CWT or JWT with respect to remote attestation procedures. That seems to a totally different context or am I missing something very obvious here? > >> >> b) "... trustworthiness claims are accompanied by a proof of veracity. Typically, this proof is a cryptographic expression such as a digital signature or a message digest". This is a misleading statement, as it could be interpreted to cover self-signing (see [3] for example), and I don't believe self-signing conveys any indication of trustworthiness. > > While in a given scope, putting trust in self-signing can absolutely > warranted, I think, I also think that was not the intended background > for that text passage. Will be fixed by elaborating on that. > > Self-signing (while not being a signing fool due to, e.g., missing key > semantics), should be further discussed though. Again, this text was not > phrased with self-signing in mind, I think. > >> >> c) As per h) of my previous review [4], I still cannotAndroid Key Attestation figure out how the concept of delegated attestation (e.g. Sec. 5.4 of [5]) would fit into this architecture. For an informational document, it may not be strictly necessary to specify an architecture that can support delegated attestation since an informational document would likely not be expected to cover all scenarios. Since this is being proposed as a normative specification however, we should ensure that it does not disallow what could be common remote attestation deployments. > > Agreed, the text is lacking in this regard. Every proposed text with > respect to "Android Key Attestation" is welcomed. We did the best we > could based on the use cases I-D. > >> >> For instance, as per the diagram in Figure 1, all evidence must be conveyed directly to the verifier and the verifier in turn produces "attestation results" to the RP. But "attestation results" are the "output from the appraisal of Evidence, Known-Good-Values and Endorsements". I take this to mean that attestation results cannot be evidence themselves. However, the delegated attestation model in [5] allows for the appraiser (approximately equivalent to the RP as per the RATS architecture doc) to compose "separate layered or orthogonal attestations, involving different proxies, in order to make a judgment". > > Figure 1 is the most simple example. We are already working on moving > that to section 1.1. It is also not using normative language. No RATS > message must move exactly along those edges, as there can be various > other ways to compose these workflows (e.g. Dave's work-flows). > >> >> As per Sec. 4.4 RATS Principals, the multiplicity property may allow for multiple verifiers to take on the role of attestation proxies. But multiplicity explicitly calls out that the instances of the principals take on the "same RATS roles". If there are multiple proxies, then it seems that they would be assessing different subsets of evidence and therefore would be occupying different roles. > > "Same role" does not imply "same task/duty". It is a class of duties. > E.g. appraisal of evidence can be split into multiple RATS principals, > all taking on the Verifier Role, but appraising different portions of > the evidence. The current phrasing seems to be lacking here - this > should be more clear, if it reads like "different subsets of evidence > require different roles with respect to appraisal of evidence". That is > most certainty not the intent. > >> >> d) RATS roles: composition: "RATS Principals possessing different RATS Roles can be combined in to a singleton ...". I can understand some aspects of this property, e.g. combining the RP and Verifier. But why would an attester and/or asserter be combined with a verifier and RP? Do you know of an example? > > The Opal Storage Specification might be a good example. And RIV is > another use case, where this can be the case, I think. > >> >> f) {Sorry to jump back} Sec. 3.1. "A Computing Environment with the capability of remote attestation ... is separate from other Attested Computing Environments (about which attestation evidence is created ...". I could not tell if this definition allowed for solutions such as Android SafetyNet [6], where the rich execution environment (REE) is producing evidence about itself. Is the intention of the RATS Architecture spec that such self-attestations not be considered valid for remote attestation? > > The definition of attestation in > [https://www.w3.org/TR/webauthn/#attestation] states: it "is employed to > attest to the provenance of an authenticator and the data it emits". > While this is very authentication-centric, first of all, your reference > [6] also states that the Android SafetyNet Attestation Statement Format: > "does not provide information regarding provenance of the authenticator > and its associated data". As a result "platform-provided authenticators > SHOULD make use of the Android Key Attestation when available, even if > the SafetyNet API is also present." > > As "statement" in that context seems to be most semantically related to > what "Claims" are in RATS, it seems that actually - no, that does not > seem to be evidence, but claim sets. In combination with Android Key > Attestation, these WebAuth statements seem to become evidence. > > But I am not an expert on authentication-centric attestation statements. > >> >> g) Sec. 3.2. "The RATS architecture anticipates recursive trustworthiness properties and the need for termination". What is being terminated in this context? > > If no attesting computational environment can create believable evidence > about a system component in a hierarchy of system components in, e.g., a > composite device - that is a point where recursive trustworthiness > properties terminate (and external endorsement are required). Ned might > be able to provide a better example. > >> >> h) Sec. 3.2. nit. "For example, design reviews, manufacturing process audits and physical security." This is not a complete sentence. > > This is not a complete sentence. Will be fixed. > >> >> i) Sec. 3.3. "RATS architecture defines attestation Roles ..., the messages they exchange, ...". Don't specifications such as EAT already define messaging in part? If so, what would the RATS architecture be defining in addition? > > That is defined in the section RATS messages. > >> >> [1] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-teep-architecture/. >> [2] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-suit-architecture/. >> [3] https://www.w3.org/TR/webauthn/#self-attestation. >> [4] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/9iIrnD9YixKCuwOGKtvGZIzd_bU. >> [5] J. Guttman et al. “”Attestation: Evidence and Trust”. MITRE Technical Report MTR080072. March 2008. https://www.mitre.org/sites/default/files/pdf/07_0186.pdf. >> [6] https://www.w3.org/TR/webauthn/#android-safetynet-attestation. > > IHTH as start! > > Viele Grüße, > > Henk > >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RATS On Behalf Of Giridhar Mandyam >> Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2019 9:29 AM >> To: rats@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [Rats] New RATS Architecture document >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Henk and other editors of the architecture doc, >> >> I appreciate the effort put into this latest revision, and I will review it with a fresh eye. >> >> I do have one overarching question: why is this document listed as 'Standards Track' (as opposed to 'Informational')? I had expressed my concerns about this in an earlier review of the doc: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/9iIrnD9YixKCuwOGKtvGZIzd_bU. >> >> Since the editors' team is composed of experienced IETF'ers, I assume that there are solid reasons for doing so. If you all have stated them before, I hope you do not mind me requesting that you lay out your reasons again because I seemed to have missed it. >> >> -Giri >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RATS On Behalf Of Henk Birkholz >> Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2019 6:13 AM >> To: rats@ietf.org >> Subject: [Rats] New RATS Architecture document >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Hi all, >> >> we created a fully revised architecture document that maps and represents the state of the current discussion and the material presented at the last IETF meeting. >> >> The current Editor's version can be found here: >> >>> https://ietf-rats.github.io/draft-birkholz-rats-architecture/draft-bir >>> kholz-rats-architecture.html >> >> We will submit a new version the day after the RATS virtual interim. >> >> TL;DR >> Below you can find a list of essential changes & a list of action items still to be addressed. >> >> >> This version of the RATS Architecture document: >> >> * does not define or uses the terms "root(s) of trust" (RoT) or "Trust Anchor" (TA) at the moment. (Note: It is a fact that the Asserter Role _is_ a TA for the Verifier Role and that an Attester Role _could_ rely on RoTs. But - this content will not go into the main body of this document), >> >> * does define RATS Roles, Messages, and Principals formerly known as "Actors" (borrowing heavily from ABLP), >> >> * provides an even more "base" interaction model diagram for the RATS Roles than presented in the last IETF meeting slide deck: >> >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/105/materials/slides-105-rats-ses >>> sb-rats-architecture-interaction-model-challange-response-yang-module- >>> information-module-00.pdf >> >> * introduces a framework for "level of confidence" in the trustworthiness of an Attester and the endorsement of the protection characteristics of its "Attesting Computing Context", allowing for other entities to use this framework and fill it with, e.g., openly defined levels of confidence metrics, >> >> * is not based on the primitive of "trust" but the concept of "trustworthiness" as illustrated by the RATS charter, >> >> * simplifies the definitions of Attester and Verifier that seemed to have caused some unfortunate confusion following the proposal of Giri and starting with commonly-accepted definitions and then justify why they may need to be modified, >> >> * differentiates between the Attesting Computing Environment and the Attested Computing Environment better, which both are components of an Attester, >> >> * uses the "Claim" concept as a building block to compose Evidence, Known-Good-Values and Endorsements. Conversely, the "Assertion" concept is dropped in this proposal (as initially suggested by Laurence, IIRC?). >> (Note: this was done to simplify the discussion about the information model. Please also note: Due to the {J|C}WT definition of "Claim", a key/value pair is implied, which is already a data model decision and not mandated by an information model), and >> >> * analogously, now uses the term Known-Good-Values instead of Attestation Assertions. >> >> >> For future versions the authors intent: >> >> * to elaborate on the use of RATS Principals, including more exemplary >> diagrams of RATS Role composition and interaction between RATS >> Principals based on the use case document (and by that address a unified >> mapping to TEEP, RIV, and models that use EAT), >> >> * to shift some of the focus on technical-trust as proposed by Thomas. >> (the Endorsements provided by an Asserter are a first step into that >> direction), >> >> * still not to define the roots of trust terms nor invent new words for >> them :) But - start to reference them on a minimal level and define a >> base set of primitives they can provide in order to describe what they >> actually are and can do in the context of RATS as proposed by Ira, Simon >> and Thomas, >> >> * to introduce and define a concise scope for layered attestation, >> addressing, e.g., the staging of Computing Environments and the >> (un-)availability of an Attesting Computing Environment at certain >> points of time, or, another example given, addressing the >> differentiation of an attested boot sequence of an Attester and an >> Attester running TEEs or rich systems for years, >> >> * to address the change of Roles of a Principal over time as proposed by >> Ian, >> >> * to move the remaining architectural sections in the EAT draft into the >> RATS Architecture draft, and >> >> * to shift some of the focus on the out-of-band trust establishment in >> order to illustrate a coherent RATS ecosystem (e.g. the provisioning of >> key material is not include in the "base diagram" anymore for now - this >> will be more elaborated on in future section of the architecture). >> >> >> Viele Grüße, >> >> Henk >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> RATS mailing list >> RATS@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats >> _______________________________________________ >> RATS mailing list >> RATS@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats >> _______________________________________________ >> RATS mailing list >> RATS@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats >> > > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > From nobody Mon Oct 7 16:10:48 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 161BF120044 for ; 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Mon, 7 Oct 2019 23:10:41 +0000 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sch=F6nw=E4lder=2C_J=FCrgen?= To: Henk Birkholz CC: Giridhar Mandyam , "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Rats] New RATS Architecture document Thread-Index: AQHVZ9l0CvdpLTeRnUKRQb/BzQqfg6clFv1ggCqIMdCAAEfxAIAAB0CAgAACswCAAAgOAA== Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 23:10:40 +0000 Message-ID: <20191007231030.wugplutyaqiioeb3@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> References: <471c785f-1cd8-62ff-431a-075ce9c35058@sit.fraunhofer.de> <6619cceb1f3b400dbd9dbbce51c6fcfb@NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com> <202c09a4-b385-6b7c-cd1d-25562f99850c@sit.fraunhofer.de> <083dbb8a7ad748f399453566af2eb541@NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com> <9fa3ff77-04a5-3d58-b977-5febc8229967@sit.fraunhofer.de> In-Reply-To: <9fa3ff77-04a5-3d58-b977-5febc8229967@sit.fraunhofer.de> Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sch=F6nw=E4lder=2C_J=FCrgen?= Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-clientproxiedby: AM4PR0202CA0017.eurprd02.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:200:89::27) To HE1P190MB0186.EURP190.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:3:c3::22) authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de; 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SCL:1; SRVR:HE1P190MB0425; H:HE1P190MB0186.EURP190.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: jacobs-university.de does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: N2O4vtOx0pV+4BpixKnlH+fmSQAqbsNaL3a3UbHGmUCOqtB7qBZq5AherbgFXixR7SaXN7BHApXkAbG8ICxj/kJYYgnaBRGu9iyYcktpQUo+oeUDspW/iN8JDEzkIAV1x4PKBvHoeqoFotH+zZlzZ/XWYCPV1oe4kytcFtXPjbupNXlJOwaI8nmMfFeXha7ayf+F2qMHjar+I7fywWkO2MlfEG+l73bf8GKXIBVSyToNcKkfFl+JGBSa+p+QmV0CN1FsWGUXZssxqU9t0jBMxijlXTRbXGTxytnBKJA3YSpJm2eRMRSCDFllMla+w2IpxuhMEkMMMph2eqt8Td9huwJbeKcVCyWGOZzROdMTL4kT6nIFZ++h7iCqo0qhRrsBZy68CT9HubSroqyN2Dxp5F3VIYXHyC2DrRGmPaK+3kw4hkC90hsx6Pnog9xOTTfes31Ku/zW6bB5/H8lIDFK4Q== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: jacobs-university.de X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 028f6a5a-b354-454c-8700-08d74b7b9268 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 07 Oct 2019 23:10:40.8557 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: f78e973e-5c0b-4ab8-bbd7-9887c95a8ebd X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 5E5FYPmCs2OGf5tGuEu5NqYb/fM/Xw92cNee0u8BNPcN1MJ+eMbf1Ba63TAevsDnK+k5ovB++eIwYDRxFg2n1RieMlNYjQ71ICqQqVxC6mk= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HE1P190MB0425 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] New RATS Architecture document X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2019 23:10:47 -0000 On Tue, Oct 08, 2019 at 12:41:40AM +0200, Henk Birkholz wrote: >=20 > A document that uses normative requirements terminology is standards trac= k. > I just searched backwards for the most recent informational document and I found RFC (8649) and it violates this rule. RFC 7921 is informational and has "Architecture" in its title and uses RFC 2119 language as well. So if this rule exists, the IETF is doing pretty bad following it. So where is the the rule defined? The question whether a document is standards-track should follow from its content (is there material that is normative for creating interoperable implementations?) and not from specific keywords used to write this content down (or other formal aspects). /js --=20 Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Mon Oct 7 16:21:47 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFEB3120044 for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 16:21:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jE3d41lzxUgu for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 16:21:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.72.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 640C1120019 for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 16:21:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (mail.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.84.171]) by mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-10) with ESMTPS id x97NLdo2028231 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 8 Oct 2019 01:21:40 +0200 Received: from [192.168.16.50] (79.234.112.245) by mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (141.12.84.171) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.468.0; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 01:21:34 +0200 To: =?UTF-8?B?U2Now7Zud8OkbGRlciwgSsO8cmdlbg==?= CC: Giridhar Mandyam , "rats@ietf.org" References: <471c785f-1cd8-62ff-431a-075ce9c35058@sit.fraunhofer.de> <6619cceb1f3b400dbd9dbbce51c6fcfb@NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com> <202c09a4-b385-6b7c-cd1d-25562f99850c@sit.fraunhofer.de> <083dbb8a7ad748f399453566af2eb541@NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com> <9fa3ff77-04a5-3d58-b977-5febc8229967@sit.fraunhofer.de> <20191007231030.wugplutyaqiioeb3@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> From: Henk Birkholz Message-ID: Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2019 01:21:33 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20191007231030.wugplutyaqiioeb3@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [79.234.112.245] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] New RATS Architecture document X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2019 23:21:46 -0000 Hm.. if I use requirement notation and not include the BCP14 boilerplate, that is an idnit, because you have to include the boilerplate then. And BCP14 is referring to standards track documents and not informational documents. I've never questioned that line of thought before, tbh. There are maybe some individuals subscribed that can clarify this easily? On 08.10.19 01:10, Schönwälder, Jürgen wrote: > On Tue, Oct 08, 2019 at 12:41:40AM +0200, Henk Birkholz wrote: >> >> A document that uses normative requirements terminology is standards track. >> > > I just searched backwards for the most recent informational document > and I found RFC (8649) and it violates this rule. RFC 7921 is > informational and has "Architecture" in its title and uses RFC 2119 > language as well. So if this rule exists, the IETF is doing pretty > bad following it. So where is the the rule defined? > > The question whether a document is standards-track should follow from > its content (is there material that is normative for creating > interoperable implementations?) and not from specific keywords used to > write this content down (or other formal aspects). > > /js > From nobody Mon Oct 7 16:34:33 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F1EF120112 for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 16:34:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OxlDl6xUa-tT for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 16:34:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.72.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3D195120232 for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 16:34:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (mail.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.84.171]) by mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-10) with ESMTPS id x97NYE0H030386 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 8 Oct 2019 01:34:15 +0200 Received: from [192.168.16.50] (79.234.112.245) by mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (141.12.84.171) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.468.0; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 01:34:09 +0200 From: Henk Birkholz To: =?UTF-8?B?U2Now7Zud8OkbGRlciwgSsO8cmdlbg==?= CC: "rats@ietf.org" , Giridhar Mandyam References: <471c785f-1cd8-62ff-431a-075ce9c35058@sit.fraunhofer.de> <6619cceb1f3b400dbd9dbbce51c6fcfb@NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com> <202c09a4-b385-6b7c-cd1d-25562f99850c@sit.fraunhofer.de> <083dbb8a7ad748f399453566af2eb541@NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com> <9fa3ff77-04a5-3d58-b977-5febc8229967@sit.fraunhofer.de> <20191007231030.wugplutyaqiioeb3@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Message-ID: <65936ef9-d81e-881a-fc63-764dca165dd2@sit.fraunhofer.de> Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2019 01:34:08 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [79.234.112.245] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] New RATS Architecture document X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2019 23:34:32 -0000 Just checked BCP14 again. "Standards track document" was replaced by "IETF documents". And wrt "when the words are in all capitals" it also says both "a lot of normative text does not use them and is still normative" and then again "when these words are not capitalized, they have their normal English meanings and are not affected by this document". I am not entirely sure what to take from this, but at the very minimum it says that all IETF documents can make use the well-defined semantics of words that are in all capitals. On 08.10.19 01:21, Henk Birkholz wrote: > Hm.. if I use requirement notation and not include the BCP14 > boilerplate, that is an idnit, because you have to include the > boilerplate then. And BCP14 is referring to standards track documents > and not informational documents. > > I've never questioned that line of thought before, tbh. There are maybe > some individuals subscribed that can clarify this easily? > > On 08.10.19 01:10, Schönwälder, Jürgen wrote: >> On Tue, Oct 08, 2019 at 12:41:40AM +0200, Henk Birkholz wrote: >>> >>> A document that uses normative requirements terminology is standards >>> track. >>> >> >> I just searched backwards for the most recent informational document >> and I found RFC (8649) and it violates this rule. RFC 7921 is >> informational and has "Architecture" in its title and uses RFC 2119 >> language as well. So if this rule exists, the IETF is doing pretty >> bad following it. So where is the the rule defined? >> >> The question whether a document is standards-track should follow from >> its content (is there material that is normative for creating >> interoperable implementations?) and not from specific keywords used to >> write this content down (or other formal aspects). >> >> /js >> > > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats From nobody Mon Oct 7 16:52:07 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E772E120048 for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 16:52:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: ayLfnWHj98iGHeHQ5ZYUSvLuFfkqpJMxyDHj1DtiqC7zUbTV26uKpLkYHBvOeG28hOqQA1TxxxL6i0GrPQq18JzVKuY1m53EdxLgxu7f4UAtnypYioCrKzylzKoXWAjls/Sonmsa9/99vmPME3fCphMhgGUz+l3mMuYJSUJEqTS8yOddbo0lzh610r3yo+CLTMJ57YiggpRJzuaInlnUDJe2Z7qo8bIUnwD9NLd+M80YWQ4m/qpo0+C+cZKmx8/T1M5MKo1saMgcr1ZI8p9IT3Xaf5U09G1IRPjKM06LesiQODMLQqenFntaChtu1vsafyaMxwcs6jYgqjieXupID4FpwHEzz1NEIbvksBclocE1xlCPY9hpKwNlxJgkat2Ux9bExxFYVzXdxDFLrjuVc3tgMHQ4nL3cs7LNjjP8dPjp9BLyir/6CTMF4+JCu8iwhoJLdjySdrTs8qH9zvycZQ== x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 3049cac3-35fa-4ff2-c1df-08d74b8158c0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 07 Oct 2019 23:52:00.6577 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: sc05k3c8EBrWxWLGQzp1TwFxzSzaag3PAPVKsk5IvVmfjEJ4Nlmz1qWU1KbIaDLF3La2LvEmb3406+Ebzj7ljOSAyb4nIt7h3bmJ35ApcjM= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MWHPR21MB0768 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] New RATS Architecture document X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2019 23:52:07 -0000 It's not a rule. =20 There's Experimental protocol RFCs that use normative requirements. There's Informational protocol RFCs (especially in the Independent stream),= typically documenting pre-existing (non-IETF) protocols, that use normativ= e requirements. There's BCP RFCs that use normative requirements. There's no requirement that they only be used in standards track docs. That said, if a doc is meant to be informational (not document a protocol l= ike in the non-IETF protocol case above), then it's good to not use normative language. They're best used when the l= anguage can actually be tested. Sometimes they're used to refer to writers of other documents (e.g., any do= cument proposing an extension MUST include security considerations.) and if used in that sense they might= appear in an arch doc. But generally I wouldn't use them in an arch doc case where you're referrin= g to what an implementer does. Dave -----Original Message----- From: RATS On Behalf Of Sch=F6nw=E4lder, J=FCrgen Sent: Monday, October 7, 2019 4:11 PM To: Henk Birkholz Cc: rats@ietf.org; Giridhar Mandyam Subject: Re: [Rats] New RATS Architecture document On Tue, Oct 08, 2019 at 12:41:40AM +0200, Henk Birkholz wrote: >=20 > A document that uses normative requirements terminology is standards trac= k. > I just searched backwards for the most recent informational document and I = found RFC (8649) and it violates this rule. RFC 7921 is informational and h= as "Architecture" in its title and uses RFC 2119 language as well. So if th= is rule exists, the IETF is doing pretty bad following it. So where is the = the rule defined? The question whether a document is standards-track should follow from its c= ontent (is there material that is normative for creating interoperable impl= ementations?) and not from specific keywords used to write this content dow= n (or other formal aspects). /js --=20 Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 _______________________________________________ RATS mailing list RATS@ietf.org https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.iet= f.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Frats&data=3D02%7C01%7Cdthaler%40microsoft.= com%7Cc0c57aa8221942b8992608d74b7b9a35%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7= C1%7C1%7C637060866573277087&sdata=3D8v4MjrNl9NR2gMjdW%2Bz9z12cVl13rHehb= pBt5D2Xrd4%3D&reserved=3D0 From nobody Mon Oct 7 18:18:30 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 956BD120110 for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 18:18:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3-mPKKxBIIsO for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 18:18:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p3plsmtpa11-03.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa11-03.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [68.178.252.104]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B6167120019 for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 18:18:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.120.0.194] ([45.56.150.18]) by :SMTPAUTH: with ESMTPA id He8viS3ZfLmlSHe8viaRXh; Mon, 07 Oct 2019 18:18:26 -0700 From: Laurence Lundblade Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_700992F1-74FF-4283-AD98-1DA4E9A1595E" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 18:18:25 -0700 In-Reply-To: <202c09a4-b385-6b7c-cd1d-25562f99850c@sit.fraunhofer.de> Cc: Giridhar Mandyam , "rats@ietf.org" To: Henk Birkholz References: <471c785f-1cd8-62ff-431a-075ce9c35058@sit.fraunhofer.de> <6619cceb1f3b400dbd9dbbce51c6fcfb@NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com> <202c09a4-b385-6b7c-cd1d-25562f99850c@sit.fraunhofer.de> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfIffOq/4TmqU4gmr+AIcOVonq/iECYzFkGK8aumVtHQl7aVjZUO7LaunVXVreBD+et8gKG7f606UsAFE6Wik3EcHXAioHlDV1YIRi6Ns2BwS9eRSyXwz ntDSRi8R/xgwgrZC65WTRWHZi+g5CPcq1Q/shlUsMhSRdjZQf+TpxlDdVEgkCTKMzzHAJYlHXg1p5B+omefGUHvqafEDqdlDJUK+MWp8eHxLDZyavzAuXTfv couDfaLVwqMaRYq9sk6HFA== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] New RATS Architecture document X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2019 01:18:29 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_700992F1-74FF-4283-AD98-1DA4E9A1595E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Below... > On Oct 7, 2019, at 3:06 PM, Henk Birkholz = wrote: >=20 > On 07.10.19 23:02, Giridhar Mandyam wrote: > ... >> -Giri Mandyam >> a) I have asked the editors twice on the mailing lists for a = justification as to why this is a standards track draft and not an = informative one. I have not received an answer, so I assume that there = is no reason. Note that comparable documents such as the TEEP = architecture document and SUIT architecture document are informative. >=20 > In order to enable interoperability, a very tight scope of normative = prerequisites is imposed on the architectural constituents of RATS by = the architecture I-D in the Normative Prerequisite section (that uses = BCP14 requirement notation). >=20 > Additionally, the architecture I-D of the "other" WG that is concerned = with security posture of ToE - the SACM WG - is an example for also not = being an informative I-D. >=20 > As far as I can see the normative prerequisites do not conflict with = EAT, but support the architectural parts of EAT (which move into the RAT = architecture I-D in any case). The core question is whether the architecture doc really needs to be = normative or not. Would EAT or Yang Model or such suffer if it was not? = Does the definition of =E2=80=9Centity=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cattester=E2=80= =9D or =E2=80=9Cverifier=E2=80=9D need to be normative?=20 I don=E2=80=99t have a strong opinion, but lean towards informational. = CWT and JWT don=E2=80=99t have an architecture document, not even an = informational one. I do have a strong opinion that IETF should not set security = requirements on internal of the implementation on a device. This was one = of my core objections to use of the term =E2=80=9Croot of trust=E2=80=9D. = Henk, it seems like you are suggesting IETF try to set requirements when = you say =E2=80=9Csecurity posture of ToE=E2=80=9D. I think imposing = implementation requirements belongs in certification programs run by = organizations with the needed legal and financial structure. I don=E2=80=99= t think IETF has this structure. I thus oppose normative status if it based on MUSTs about the = implementation like MUST have a protection boundary or MUST defend = against side channels. (That said, I=E2=80=99m fine with us defining claims that describe such = security characteristics of the implementation). LL= --Apple-Mail=_700992F1-74FF-4283-AD98-1DA4E9A1595E Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
    Below...

    On Oct 7, 2019, at 3:06 PM, Henk Birkholz = <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:

    On 07.10.19 23:02, Giridhar = Mandyam wrote:
    ...
    -Giri Mandyam
    a) I have = asked the editors twice on the mailing lists for a justification as to = why this is a standards track draft and not an informative one.  I = have not received an answer, so I assume that there is no reason. =  Note that comparable documents such as the TEEP architecture = document and SUIT architecture document are informative.

    In order to enable interoperability, a very tight scope of = normative prerequisites is imposed on the architectural constituents of = RATS by the architecture I-D in the Normative Prerequisite section (that = uses BCP14 requirement notation).

    Additionally, the architecture I-D of the "other" WG that is = concerned with security posture of ToE - the SACM WG - is an example for = also not being an informative I-D.

    As far as I can see the normative prerequisites do not = conflict with EAT, but support the architectural parts of EAT (which = move into the RAT architecture I-D in any = case).

    The = core question is whether the architecture doc really needs to be = normative or not. Would EAT or Yang Model or such suffer if it was not? = Does the definition of =E2=80=9Centity=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cattester=E2=80= =9D or =E2=80=9Cverifier=E2=80=9D need to be normative? 

    I don=E2=80=99t have a = strong opinion, but lean towards informational. CWT and JWT don=E2=80=99t = have an architecture document, not even an informational one.

    I do have a strong = opinion that IETF should not set security requirements on internal of = the implementation on a device. This was one of my core objections to = use of the term =E2=80=9Croot of trust=E2=80=9D. Henk, it seems like you = are suggesting IETF try to set requirements when you say =E2=80=9Csecurity= posture of ToE=E2=80=9D. I think imposing implementation requirements = belongs in certification programs run by organizations with the needed = legal and financial structure. I don=E2=80=99t think IETF has this = structure.

    I = thus oppose normative status if it based on MUSTs about the = implementation like MUST have a protection boundary or MUST defend = against side channels.

    (That said, I=E2=80=99m fine with us defining claims that = describe such security characteristics of the implementation).

    LL
    = --Apple-Mail=_700992F1-74FF-4283-AD98-1DA4E9A1595E-- From nobody Mon Oct 7 18:57:47 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A77012010F for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 18:57:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YFCZ3Cd9wE36 for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 18:57:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p3plsmtpa11-04.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa11-04.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [68.178.252.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4F6FB120019 for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 18:57:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.120.0.194] ([45.56.150.18]) by :SMTPAUTH: with ESMTPA id Hekwi8N6heyLtHekwi35IU; Mon, 07 Oct 2019 18:57:42 -0700 From: Laurence Lundblade Message-Id: <23A51637-C77E-44DC-A9B6-FE64AB3768CD@island-resort.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_038D7828-6B1C-46D1-A6AB-615B1B0B5841" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Mon, 7 Oct 2019 18:57:42 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: Kathleen Moriarty , Michael Richardson , "Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" , "rats@ietf.org" To: Henk Birkholz References: <1882.1570451614@dooku.sandelman.ca> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfIXOS7sM5Z4vSc15jjAJ1RGX8tNQIjTzNdSLMSt1RyYJMLC4kSylvR/YSJ5elMcoREyjDdxeJpNIu5UyQlHcmYwgIGCxQNJGKLewvabQic0xZ368uybY mRC+88JYEbLDsJBofVodVuePKCMqLFSvrjjTChQTEiqI5CLteWADFffwmA0/b9yEyoOe8RSDTMSQsG08HmM68WeqnoQhTilabzg+uslAzd6DxXXW+RrpRgVl 6M2GebgEerCM+e/q4cYWmXuqJm1abuyOsWwSlpn5kwGvLrhkA6NWKnsj1V+Hp66tIlt9JZ5LQuJoaVadzyLJ/E4OK5hgSjH/bq6HalOftkc= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Supply Chain Attestation (was Re: 3 Use cases) X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2019 01:57:46 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_038D7828-6B1C-46D1-A6AB-615B1B0B5841 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 EAT has three mechanisms that can apply here: Nested EATs One signed EAT is embedded in another signed EAT. The signature of the = top-level one is across full COSE structure of the nested EAT. This is = important to bind the nested EAT (perhaps EATs) with the top-level one = and all it claims. submods These are subordinate maps of claims that are not separately signed. The = relation to the attester is explicitly labeled. For example an EAT may = span 4 chips each of which has its own OEM and HW Version. There would = probably be 3 submods plus the chip doing the attester. Each would have = an OEM claim and a HW Version claim. Custom Claims There=E2=80=99s no preclusion to some complex claim with many levels of = nesting of maps and arrays. So, no it is not true that an EAT can only = include a nested EAT. As Ned says, the Verifier is likely to expect a lot of this and fail if = not as required. The profile it adheres to might be liberal about lots = of extra unknown submods, nested eats and custom claims or not liberal = at all. I after a good structure for all of these that is flexible and useful. = Would be interested in folks trying to use these to construct EATs for = use cases as examples. LL > On Oct 7, 2019, at 11:45 AM, Henk Birkholz = wrote: >=20 > That brings up an interesting topic. >=20 > If you want to nest objects/maps in EAT, do you have to define a = separate EAT for each layer or can you define nested (potentially = multiple) sub-structures as a single EAT flavor/specification? Like a = "required nesting that is predefined". >=20 > I'd assume so, but I think that is not spelled out explicitly - as an = EAT can only include nested EATs? >=20 > Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, >=20 > Henk >=20 > On 07.10.19 18:08, Kathleen Moriarty wrote: >> On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 8:32 AM Michael Richardson > wrote: >> {sorry for the time-warp email, responding to you was important to = me} >> Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) > > wrote: >> > Supply Chain Attestation >> > A device is shipped from an OEM via some delivery mechanism >> and is >> > received by a customer. The customer requires assurance = that >> the device >> > has not been tampered with. This differs from the usual >> attestation >> > scenarios between a device/element and attestation >> server/verifier in >> > that this requires knowledge of the partial or full >> configuration of >> > the device being shipped and configured before introduction >> into the >> > customer's environment. >> > This use case then requires interaction between two >> attestation points >> > to ensure that the integrity of the device has not changed >> with regards >> > to a) the device, b) the original [possibly partial] >> configuration, c) >> > the device manufacturer's measurements and d) the receiver = - >> customer's >> > - measurements.. >> There are quite a number of entities that are looking for the >> attestation >> that involves not the device, but the configuration as well. >> I think that this fits into 5.1: Device Capabilities/Firmware = Attestion. >> I think that the need for sensitivity to configuration is = generally >> something >> that the TCG RIV work: >> The TCG RIV Reference Document addresses the problem of >> knowing if a networking device >> should be part of a network, if it belongs to the operator, >> and if it is RUNNING >> APPROPRIATE SOFTWARE. >> Guy has posted their document as >> draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation, which >> makes it much more accessible if you aren't a TCG member (I'm = not). >> You allude (but are perhaps not explicit enough) in your second >> paragraph >> that there is some interaction between different attesters to >> generate the >> required set of claims needed. Do you imagine that this is done = via >> multiple >> signatures on a claim set, or some kind of nested claim structure, >> or perhaps >> use of passport claim for one part, followed by a background-check = style >> process for the second. (Dave Thaler's slides included that option = too) >> I would guess a nested claim structure so that you could 'wrap' a = claim set and signature of code that is relied upon. Having a standard = format and evaluation method (TEEP) for this use case is then very = important across vendors int he supply chain. Your other suggestion = could work as well, but the consistent ablity to validate will be very = important. I'd like to follow the discussion and thoughts of others. >> Best regards, >> Kathleen >> -- ] Never tell me the odds! | = ipv6 mesh >> networks [ >> ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network >> architect [ >> ] mcr@sandelman.ca >> http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails [ >> _______________________________________________ >> RATS mailing list >> RATS@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats >> --=20 >> Best regards, >> Kathleen >> _______________________________________________ >> RATS mailing list >> RATS@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats >=20 > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats --Apple-Mail=_038D7828-6B1C-46D1-A6AB-615B1B0B5841 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 EAT = has three mechanisms that can apply here:

    Nested = EATs
    One signed EAT is embedded in another = signed EAT. The signature of the top-level one is across full COSE = structure of the nested EAT. This is important to bind the nested EAT = (perhaps EATs) with the top-level one and all it claims.

    submods
    These are subordinate = maps of claims that are not separately signed. The relation to the = attester is explicitly labeled. For example an EAT may span 4 chips each = of which has its own OEM and HW Version. There would probably be 3 = submods plus the chip doing the attester. Each would have an OEM claim = and a HW Version claim.

    Custom = Claims
    There=E2=80=99s no preclusion = to some complex claim with many levels of nesting of maps and arrays. =  So, no it is not true that an EAT can only include a nested = EAT.

    As Ned says, the Verifier is likely to expect a = lot of this and fail if not as required. The profile it adheres to might = be liberal about lots of extra unknown submods, nested eats and custom = claims or not liberal at all.

    I = after a good structure for all of these that is flexible and useful. = Would be interested in folks trying to use these to construct EATs for = use cases as examples.

    LL


    On Oct = 7, 2019, at 11:45 AM, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:

    That = brings up an interesting topic.

    If you want = to nest objects/maps in EAT, do you have to define a separate EAT for = each layer or can you define nested (potentially multiple) = sub-structures as a single EAT flavor/specification? Like a "required = nesting that is predefined".

    I'd assume so, = but I think that is not spelled out explicitly - as an EAT can only = include nested EATs?

    Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
    Henk

    On = 07.10.19 18:08, Kathleen Moriarty wrote:
    On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 8:32 AM Michael = Richardson <mcr@sandelman.ca <mailto:mcr@sandelman.ca>> wrote:
    =    {sorry for the time-warp email, responding to you was = important to me}
       Oliver, Ian (Nokia - = FI/Espoo) <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com
    =    <mailto:ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>> wrote:
            > Supply Chain = Attestation
            > A = device is shipped from an OEM via some delivery mechanism
    =    and is
          =   > received by a customer. The customer requires assurance = that
       the device
    =         > has not been tampered with. = This differs from the usual
    =    attestation
    =         > scenarios between a = device/element and attestation
    =    server/verifier in
    =         > that this requires knowledge = of the partial or full
       configuration = of
            > the device = being shipped and configured before introduction
    =    into the
          =   > customer's environment.
    =         > This use case then requires = interaction between two
       attestation = points
            > to = ensure that the integrity of the device has not changed
    =    with regards
    =         > to a) the device, b) the = original [possibly partial]
    =    configuration, c)
    =         > the device manufacturer's = measurements and d) the receiver -
    =    customer's
    =         > - measurements..
    =    There are quite a number of entities that are looking = for the
       attestation
    =    that involves not the device, but the configuration as = well.
       I think that this fits into 5.1: = Device Capabilities/Firmware Attestion.
    =    I think that the need for sensitivity to configuration = is generally
       something
    =    that the TCG RIV work:
    =          The TCG RIV Reference = Document addresses the problem of
    =    knowing if a networking device
    =          should be part of a network, = if it belongs to the operator,
       and if = it is RUNNING
            =  APPROPRIATE SOFTWARE.
       Guy has = posted their document as
    =    draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation, = which
       makes it much more accessible if = you aren't a TCG member (I'm not).
       You = allude (but are perhaps not explicit enough) in your second
    =    paragraph
       that there = is some interaction between different attesters to
    =    generate the
       required = set of claims needed.  Do you imagine that this is done via
       multiple
    =    signatures on a claim set, or some kind of nested = claim structure,
       or perhaps
       use of passport claim for one part, = followed by a background-check style
    =    process for the second. (Dave Thaler's slides included = that option too)
    I would guess a nested claim structure so = that you could 'wrap'  a claim set and signature of code that is = relied upon.  Having a standard format and evaluation method (TEEP) = for this use case is then very important across vendors int he supply = chain.  Your other suggestion could work as well, but the = consistent ablity to validate will be very important.  I'd like to = follow the discussion and thoughts of others.
    Best = regards,
    Kathleen
       -- =     ]            =    Never tell me the odds!          =        | ipv6 mesh
    =    networks [
       ]  =  Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works      =   | network
       architect  [
       ] mcr@sandelman.ca <mailto:mcr@sandelman.ca>
    =    http://www.sandelman.ca/        = |   ruby on rails    [
    =    _______________________________________________
       RATS mailing list
    =    RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
    =    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
    --=
    Best regards,
    Kathleen
    _______________________________________________
    RATS mailing list
    RATS@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats

    _______________________________________________
    RATS mailing list
    RATS@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats

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IHBhcmEgdXNvIGV4Y2x1c2l2byBkYSBwZXNzb2Egb3UgZW50aWRhZGUgZGUgZGVzdGluby4gU2Ug bsOjbyDDqSB2b3NzYSBzZW5ob3JpYSBvIGRlc3RpbmF0w6FyaW8gaW5kaWNhZG8sIGZpY2Egbm90 aWZpY2FkbyBkZSBxdWUgYSBsZWl0dXJhLCB1dGlsaXphw6fDo28sIGRpdnVsZ2HDp8OjbyBlL291 IGPDs3BpYSBzZW0gYXV0b3JpemHDp8OjbyBwb2RlIGVzdGFyIHByb2liaWRhIGVtIHZpcnR1ZGUg ZGEgbGVnaXNsYcOnw6NvIHZpZ2VudGUuIFNlIHJlY2ViZXUgZXN0YSBtZW5zYWdlbSBwb3IgZXJy bywgcm9nYW1vcy1saGUgcXVlIG5vcyBvIGNvbXVuaXF1ZSBpbWVkaWF0YW1lbnRlIHBvciBlc3Rh IG1lc21hIHZpYSBlIHByb2NlZGEgYSBzdWEgZGVzdHJ1acOnw6NvDQo= From nobody Mon Oct 7 23:51:52 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 784691200B5 for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 23:51:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.436 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.436 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_SBL_CSS=3.335, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Slhsji45AeHS for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 23:51:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [IPv6:2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:de77]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E737E12000F for ; Mon, 7 Oct 2019 23:51:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (unknown [46.183.103.8]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DDA9A1F456 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 06:51:46 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id E48F91207; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 08:52:09 +0200 (CEST) From: Michael Richardson To: "rats\@ietf.org" In-reply-to: References: <1882.1570451614@dooku.sandelman.ca> Comments: In-reply-to Henk Birkholz message dated "Mon, 07 Oct 2019 20:45:12 +0200." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2019 08:52:09 +0200 Message-ID: <18346.1570517529@dooku.sandelman.ca> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Supply Chain Attestation (was Re: 3 Use cases) X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2019 06:51:52 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Henk Birkholz wrote: > That brings up an interesting topic. > If you want to nest objects/maps in EAT, do you have to define a separate EAT > for each layer or can you define nested (potentially multiple) sub-structures > as a single EAT flavor/specification? Like a "required nesting that is > predefined". And there are two ways to do this. A: (eat (eat (eat (eat X)))) B: (eat (eat) (eat) (eat) (eat)) And they aren't mutually exclusive, either: C: (eat (eat (eat) (eat (eat))) (eat)) (A) above is the where there are multiple layers of Supply Chain, and each is made up ofaggregated things. (B) is where one takes a few different assemblies together. For instance: Door assembly system + 6 chair-systems => train compartment 4x train compartments + 40 open-seats + bathroom + 4 outer-door systems => wagon 11 wagons 1->11 => ICE 802 I'm not in favour of arbitrary ways to do things as I think it will be too difficult for relying parties to understand. I look at the incredible difficulty that XPATH interpretation of XML and HTML documents presents. On the other hand, I'd want the system to be sufficiently maleable to not instantly break because a sub-assembly changed sub-sub-suppliers. I don't have a good answer here. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEERK+9HEcJHTJ9UqTMlUzhVv38QpAFAl2cMhkACgkQlUzhVv38 QpCb2Qf/e0IAH0yVDNaflBt/Qk0SvXbV4Po4Jx/ITlwLLrtvH6rVeFsv3aG0WO61 kMV5bfflGJNDuyS4Gc8wBg2IGok40qyWOxOyVNShBmXg50g+HwbZyKkMCMB3VazV AiJ8remTM2m5xMo2LyIRVS5cpFX/fRJdVVz9SKbmQnBdRP9CkvsG4RjY/A+k0ow6 hrgcM1X50By8wj8GrVQqFXc9ArhRL/Eafr/J3HqY4UuLys6PMjVqLIXivSsT6mnl yQnAiBfo3Ywhip9lH32jubHLjsmy6N0ZVuXL6Tru+rSMxUBXcWqYV8+J/NwG/Qer f47O0/kuibqlUGR7qAPcOSuS/KixZg== =2DUP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Oct 8 00:37:59 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E15F120132 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 00:37:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xcDdnq7R7ecM for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 00:37:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.72.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B7F621200D5 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 00:37:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (mail.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.84.171]) by mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-10) with ESMTPS id x987bnVm020667 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 8 Oct 2019 09:37:50 +0200 Received: from [192.168.16.50] (79.234.112.245) by mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (141.12.84.171) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.468.0; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 09:37:44 +0200 To: Laurence Lundblade CC: Kathleen Moriarty , Michael Richardson , "Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" , "rats@ietf.org" References: <1882.1570451614@dooku.sandelman.ca> <23A51637-C77E-44DC-A9B6-FE64AB3768CD@island-resort.com> From: Henk Birkholz Message-ID: Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2019 09:37:43 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <23A51637-C77E-44DC-A9B6-FE64AB3768CD@island-resort.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [79.234.112.245] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Supply Chain Attestation (was Re: 3 Use cases) X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2019 07:37:58 -0000 Hi Laurence, thanks for the clarification! If you nest a pre-defined submod in an EAT, I assume the key is defined in the same specification. If I nest an EAT in an EAT (Michael gave two good examples that can be combined), where do I define the key for that? In the nested EAT specification or in the nesting EAT specification? I'd assume in the nested EAT specification? A special (or actualy the currently most common) case would be the current base EAT specification. Should that come with its own "self-nesting" key then? Viele Grüße, Henk On 08.10.19 03:57, Laurence Lundblade wrote: > EAT has three mechanisms that can apply here: > > _Nested EATs_ > One signed EAT is embedded in another signed EAT. The signature of > the top-level one is across full COSE structure of the nested EAT. > This is important to bind the nested EAT (perhaps EATs) with the > top-level one and all it claims. > > _submods_ > These are subordinate maps of claims that are not separately signed. > The relation to the attester is explicitly labeled. For example an > EAT may span 4 chips each of which has its own OEM and HW Version. > There would probably be 3 submods plus the chip doing the attester. > Each would have an OEM claim and a HW Version claim. > > _Custom Claims_ > There’s no preclusion to some complex claim with many levels of > nesting of maps and arrays.  So, no it is not true that an EAT can > only include a nested EAT. > > > As Ned says, the Verifier is likely to expect a lot of this and fail if > not as required. The profile it adheres to might be liberal about lots > of extra unknown submods, nested eats and custom claims or not liberal > at all. > > I after a good structure for all of these that is flexible and useful. > Would be interested in folks trying to use these to construct EATs for > use cases as examples. > > LL > > >> On Oct 7, 2019, at 11:45 AM, Henk Birkholz >> > > wrote: >> >> That brings up an interesting topic. >> >> If you want to nest objects/maps in EAT, do you have to define a >> separate EAT for each layer or can you define nested (potentially >> multiple) sub-structures as a single EAT flavor/specification? Like a >> "required nesting that is predefined". >> >> I'd assume so, but I think that is not spelled out explicitly - as an >> EAT can only include nested EATs? >> >> Viele Grüße, >> >> Henk >> >> On 07.10.19 18:08, Kathleen Moriarty wrote: >>> On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 8:32 AM Michael Richardson >> > wrote: >>>    {sorry for the time-warp email, responding to you was important to me} >>>    Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) >> >>>    > wrote: >>>         > Supply Chain Attestation >>>         > A device is shipped from an OEM via some delivery mechanism >>>    and is >>>         > received by a customer. The customer requires assurance that >>>    the device >>>         > has not been tampered with. This differs from the usual >>>    attestation >>>         > scenarios between a device/element and attestation >>>    server/verifier in >>>         > that this requires knowledge of the partial or full >>>    configuration of >>>         > the device being shipped and configured before introduction >>>    into the >>>         > customer's environment. >>>         > This use case then requires interaction between two >>>    attestation points >>>         > to ensure that the integrity of the device has not changed >>>    with regards >>>         > to a) the device, b) the original [possibly partial] >>>    configuration, c) >>>         > the device manufacturer's measurements and d) the receiver - >>>    customer's >>>         > - measurements.. >>>    There are quite a number of entities that are looking for the >>>    attestation >>>    that involves not the device, but the configuration as well. >>>    I think that this fits into 5.1: Device Capabilities/Firmware >>> Attestion. >>>    I think that the need for sensitivity to configuration is generally >>>    something >>>    that the TCG RIV work: >>>          The TCG RIV Reference Document addresses the problem of >>>    knowing if a networking device >>>          should be part of a network, if it belongs to the operator, >>>    and if it is RUNNING >>>          APPROPRIATE SOFTWARE. >>>    Guy has posted their document as >>>    draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation, which >>>    makes it much more accessible if you aren't a TCG member (I'm not). >>>    You allude (but are perhaps not explicit enough) in your second >>>    paragraph >>>    that there is some interaction between different attesters to >>>    generate the >>>    required set of claims needed.  Do you imagine that this is done via >>>    multiple >>>    signatures on a claim set, or some kind of nested claim structure, >>>    or perhaps >>>    use of passport claim for one part, followed by a background-check >>> style >>>    process for the second. (Dave Thaler's slides included that option >>> too) >>> I would guess a nested claim structure so that you could 'wrap'  a >>> claim set and signature of code that is relied upon.  Having a >>> standard format and evaluation method (TEEP) for this use case is >>> then very important across vendors int he supply chain.  Your other >>> suggestion could work as well, but the consistent ablity to validate >>> will be very important.  I'd like to follow the discussion and >>> thoughts of others. >>> Best regards, >>> Kathleen >>>    --     ]               Never tell me the odds!                 | >>> ipv6 mesh >>>    networks [ >>>    ]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works        | network >>>    architect  [ >>>    ] mcr@sandelman.ca >>> http://www.sandelman.ca/        |   ruby on rails    [ >>>    _______________________________________________ >>>    RATS mailing list >>> RATS@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats >>> -- >>> Best regards, >>> Kathleen >>> _______________________________________________ >>> RATS mailing list >>> RATS@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats >> >> _______________________________________________ >> RATS mailing list >> RATS@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > From nobody Tue Oct 8 00:56:54 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4390F1200D5 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 00:56:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZXPgq9l1QGrv for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 00:56:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.72.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5A47112003E for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 00:56:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (mail.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.84.171]) by mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-10) with ESMTPS id x987ukoD021401 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 8 Oct 2019 09:56:47 +0200 Received: from [192.168.16.50] (79.234.112.245) by mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (141.12.84.171) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.468.0; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 09:56:41 +0200 From: Henk Birkholz To: Laurence Lundblade CC: "Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" , Kathleen Moriarty , Michael Richardson , "rats@ietf.org" References: <1882.1570451614@dooku.sandelman.ca> <23A51637-C77E-44DC-A9B6-FE64AB3768CD@island-resort.com> Message-ID: <094cc145-bdfb-6b2b-5da2-0dbf7c648701@sit.fraunhofer.de> Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2019 09:56:40 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [79.234.112.245] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Supply Chain Attestation (was Re: 3 Use cases) X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2019 07:56:52 -0000 p.s. I am aware of the submod_name claim as a value inside a submod EAT flavor to identify it when you are already parsing the map. I also assume that the string "submods" is probably going to be replaced and being registered as a key for the array of submod claim sets at some point. What I am trying to ask is: is it intended and if so, how, to provide for simplified parsing of the root map by associating specific keys other than the to be defined submods key in order to identify a nested EAT flavor before parsing a sequence of maps? To stay concise and easy to parse, I'd rather like to define a key for my EAT flavor instead of putting it in an array of other maps, I think. Viele Grüße, Henk On 08.10.19 09:37, Henk Birkholz wrote: > Hi Laurence, > > thanks for the clarification! If you nest a pre-defined submod in an > EAT, I assume the key is defined in the same specification. > > If I nest an EAT in an EAT (Michael gave two good examples that can be > combined), where do I define the key for that? In the nested EAT > specification or in the nesting EAT specification? I'd assume in the > nested EAT specification? > > A special (or actualy the currently most common) case would be the > current base EAT specification. Should that come with its own > "self-nesting" key then? > > Viele Grüße, > > Henk > > On 08.10.19 03:57, Laurence Lundblade wrote: >> EAT has three mechanisms that can apply here: >> >>     _Nested EATs_ >>     One signed EAT is embedded in another signed EAT. The signature of >>     the top-level one is across full COSE structure of the nested EAT. >>     This is important to bind the nested EAT (perhaps EATs) with the >>     top-level one and all it claims. >> >>     _submods_ >>     These are subordinate maps of claims that are not separately signed. >>     The relation to the attester is explicitly labeled. For example an >>     EAT may span 4 chips each of which has its own OEM and HW Version. >>     There would probably be 3 submods plus the chip doing the attester. >>     Each would have an OEM claim and a HW Version claim. >> >>     _Custom Claims_ >>     There’s no preclusion to some complex claim with many levels of >>     nesting of maps and arrays.  So, no it is not true that an EAT can >>     only include a nested EAT. >> >> >> As Ned says, the Verifier is likely to expect a lot of this and fail >> if not as required. The profile it adheres to might be liberal about >> lots of extra unknown submods, nested eats and custom claims or not >> liberal at all. >> >> I after a good structure for all of these that is flexible and useful. >> Would be interested in folks trying to use these to construct EATs for >> use cases as examples. >> >> LL >> >> >>> On Oct 7, 2019, at 11:45 AM, Henk Birkholz >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> That brings up an interesting topic. >>> >>> If you want to nest objects/maps in EAT, do you have to define a >>> separate EAT for each layer or can you define nested (potentially >>> multiple) sub-structures as a single EAT flavor/specification? Like a >>> "required nesting that is predefined". >>> >>> I'd assume so, but I think that is not spelled out explicitly - as an >>> EAT can only include nested EATs? >>> >>> Viele Grüße, >>> >>> Henk >>> >>> On 07.10.19 18:08, Kathleen Moriarty wrote: >>>> On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 8:32 AM Michael Richardson >>> > wrote: >>>>    {sorry for the time-warp email, responding to you was important >>>> to me} >>>>    Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) >>> >>>>    > wrote: >>>>         > Supply Chain Attestation >>>>         > A device is shipped from an OEM via some delivery mechanism >>>>    and is >>>>         > received by a customer. The customer requires assurance that >>>>    the device >>>>         > has not been tampered with. This differs from the usual >>>>    attestation >>>>         > scenarios between a device/element and attestation >>>>    server/verifier in >>>>         > that this requires knowledge of the partial or full >>>>    configuration of >>>>         > the device being shipped and configured before introduction >>>>    into the >>>>         > customer's environment. >>>>         > This use case then requires interaction between two >>>>    attestation points >>>>         > to ensure that the integrity of the device has not changed >>>>    with regards >>>>         > to a) the device, b) the original [possibly partial] >>>>    configuration, c) >>>>         > the device manufacturer's measurements and d) the receiver - >>>>    customer's >>>>         > - measurements.. >>>>    There are quite a number of entities that are looking for the >>>>    attestation >>>>    that involves not the device, but the configuration as well. >>>>    I think that this fits into 5.1: Device Capabilities/Firmware >>>> Attestion. >>>>    I think that the need for sensitivity to configuration is generally >>>>    something >>>>    that the TCG RIV work: >>>>          The TCG RIV Reference Document addresses the problem of >>>>    knowing if a networking device >>>>          should be part of a network, if it belongs to the operator, >>>>    and if it is RUNNING >>>>          APPROPRIATE SOFTWARE. >>>>    Guy has posted their document as >>>>    draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation, which >>>>    makes it much more accessible if you aren't a TCG member (I'm not). >>>>    You allude (but are perhaps not explicit enough) in your second >>>>    paragraph >>>>    that there is some interaction between different attesters to >>>>    generate the >>>>    required set of claims needed.  Do you imagine that this is done via >>>>    multiple >>>>    signatures on a claim set, or some kind of nested claim structure, >>>>    or perhaps >>>>    use of passport claim for one part, followed by a >>>> background-check style >>>>    process for the second. (Dave Thaler's slides included that >>>> option too) >>>> I would guess a nested claim structure so that you could 'wrap'  a >>>> claim set and signature of code that is relied upon.  Having a >>>> standard format and evaluation method (TEEP) for this use case is >>>> then very important across vendors int he supply chain.  Your other >>>> suggestion could work as well, but the consistent ablity to validate >>>> will be very important.  I'd like to follow the discussion and >>>> thoughts of others. >>>> Best regards, >>>> Kathleen >>>>    --     ]               Never tell me the odds!                 | >>>> ipv6 mesh >>>>    networks [ >>>>    ]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works        | network >>>>    architect  [ >>>>    ] mcr@sandelman.ca >>>> >>>> http://www.sandelman.ca/        |   ruby on rails    [ >>>>    _______________________________________________ >>>>    RATS mailing list >>>> RATS@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats >>>> -- >>>> Best regards, >>>> Kathleen >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> RATS mailing list >>>> RATS@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> RATS mailing list >>> RATS@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats >> > > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats From nobody Tue Oct 8 01:19:25 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A8AF120047 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 01:19:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.197 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8QDQYZNXqglM for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 01:19:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 535951200F3 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 01:19:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from client-0118.vpn.uni-bremen.de (client-0118.vpn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.107.118]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 46nVcl2gYRzylF; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 10:19:19 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2019 10:19:19 +0200 Cc: Juergen Schoenwaelder , Giridhar Mandyam , "rats@ietf.org" X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 592215557.291687-f102af22a7da403418916f0d189bec80 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <3869130E-F4BA-4EF1-B236-4D5B7D9789A5@tzi.org> References: <471c785f-1cd8-62ff-431a-075ce9c35058@sit.fraunhofer.de> <6619cceb1f3b400dbd9dbbce51c6fcfb@NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com> <202c09a4-b385-6b7c-cd1d-25562f99850c@sit.fraunhofer.de> <083dbb8a7ad748f399453566af2eb541@NASANEXM01C.na.qualcomm.com> <9fa3ff77-04a5-3d58-b977-5febc8229967@sit.fraunhofer.de> <20191007231030.wugplutyaqiioeb3@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> To: Henk Birkholz X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] New RATS Architecture document X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2019 08:19:23 -0000 On Oct 8, 2019, at 01:21, Henk Birkholz = wrote: >=20 > Hm.. if I use requirement notation and not include the BCP14 = boilerplate, that is an idnit, because you have to include the = boilerplate then. And BCP14 is referring to standards track documents = and not informational documents. >=20 > I've never questioned that line of thought before, tbh. There are = maybe some individuals subscribed that can clarify this easily? These individuals are called ADs :-) I don=E2=80=99t think the way the IETF handles this is particularly = logical, so it doesn=E2=80=99t quite work to make arguments entirely = based on logic here. The really important question is how is the = document intended to be used. For something like an architecture document, the document will not be = used standalone, but in conjunction with a protocol specification that = provides the details. If the statements in the architecture document = are necessary components to correctly interpret the protocol = specification, the latter needs to make a normative reference to the = architecture document. If the architecture document is just an = informational document, it needs to be blessed to be on the =E2=80=9Cdownr= ef list=E2=80=9D before this can be done. I don=E2=80=99t understand why we are creating informational documents = that MUST be put on the downref list before they can be used. But, = apparently, we do, all the time. I think it is more appropriate to go = for standards track if the intention is indeed normative as a component = of the protocol specification. What is the difference? Standards-Track documents need more IESG votes = (and thus more IESG work!) than informational documents. Putting a = document that contains components of a protocol specification through = the light-weight informational process and then go for downref right = away sounds sneaky to this process connoisseur. But, apparently, it can = be done. Now ask the AD :-) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten >=20 > On 08.10.19 01:10, Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder, J=C3=BCrgen wrote: >> On Tue, Oct 08, 2019 at 12:41:40AM +0200, Henk Birkholz wrote: >>>=20 >>> A document that uses normative requirements terminology is standards = track. >>>=20 >> I just searched backwards for the most recent informational document >> and I found RFC (8649) and it violates this rule. RFC 7921 is >> informational and has "Architecture" in its title and uses RFC 2119 >> language as well. So if this rule exists, the IETF is doing pretty >> bad following it. So where is the the rule defined? >> The question whether a document is standards-track should follow from >> its content (is there material that is normative for creating >> interoperable implementations?) and not from specific keywords used = to >> write this content down (or other formal aspects). >> /js >=20 From nobody Tue Oct 8 01:20:46 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EF691200D5 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 01:20:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CEXZZqu0Gdgk for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 01:20:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [176.58.120.209]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BAC8C120047 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 01:20:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (unknown [46.183.103.8]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 007851F456; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 08:20:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 1B3ECC2D; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 10:21:13 +0200 (CEST) From: Michael Richardson To: Kathleen Moriarty cc: rats@ietf.org In-reply-to: References: Comments: In-reply-to Kathleen Moriarty message dated "Mon, 07 Oct 2019 16:43:47 -0400." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2019 10:21:13 +0200 Message-ID: <24525.1570522873@dooku.sandelman.ca> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Use case document -05 X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2019 08:20:44 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kathleen Moriarty wrote: > I just did a quick review and sent one nit separately before coming up > with some more clarification questions/suggestions. > Nit in 5.1.4: > The > infrastructure is in control of a single operator and is already trus= ted. > I think you meant =E2=80=9Cis in the control=E2=80=9D. > Otherwise, we are in trouble. :-) Oh, yes, that is an interesting change in meaning by the loss of an article. ("I for one, welcome our new skynet overloads") > Also, what is being validated? The running and configured software > from root of trust and/or the software from vendors as provided? My understanding is that this use case is primarily about the NEA situation. Desktops have to provide attestation that they are running a valid configur= ation. > 5.1.5 > Would each system really do the assessments themselves? Wouldn=E2=80= =99t it be > easier to have a relying party (management station/repository) of > collected information from each administrative domain? How do you > scale the interactions in a highly complex data center scenario with > virtualized systems that are also isolating tenants in container > clusters for instance? okay, let me think about how to rephrase this. Individual data centers/buildings would act like 5.1.4, but then would have to cross-attest. That's why the N:1:M process. This is the large university with many departments, each of which might have their own IT standards, or the government with multiple agencies. > 5.1.6 - my question above spills into this one. > Also note the typo of having medium in this one. This is the case where it's every mobile phone in an operator, and many of the phones are BYO. > 5.5 critical infrastructure > Are you providing protection from malware by only allowing specific > signers or specific attested code or both forms of white listing? Or > something else? I=E2=80=99m assuming both forms of white listing and= it would > be good to explain that if it=E2=80=99s the case. This comes out of the side-meeting, about having some critical system (some safety valve, plant-shutdown switch, Starship Enterprise-Self-Destruc= t) want to know more about the device sending the critical instruction. I'm not sure what it would be. I can see it invoking much of the FIDO stuff too: making sure that the devi= ce that authenticated the authorizing human was sane. > Excellent work on this document! I think we should formally adopt it. Sure, that's a good idea so that it occupy 1st class WG schedule time. =2D- ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh network= s [ ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect= [ ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [ --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEERK+9HEcJHTJ9UqTMlUzhVv38QpAFAl2cRvgACgkQlUzhVv38 QpBIDgf/e30vZQDkcLMbMC3TyS2gZFrG2urrh785XldbBJk+P9hQlgWNFBjl1Ly1 lF0DjGj1mUq0eMXQPnsNKnqQQoQoV6hXKb4EMmxojjGJmODIB4fI3hISuNqTB5V9 /KmrIWWC5/8jMCq6M3MDIuI7Me5rdFiunteje3g/cP+qMU0MX82BiT5N9xr5/hHk dcN5I0ZObZeywHdoHd/eFV79+sqag0Pb2das2y+EMwi2JyGY8EMmBr0/S+2cXpsK eqMIGt/GZJdk25iAWT4ZrgdBGq92NyaCImBeDshzVPIebI3WyoTY6ksRAqoeJ8ov YL/NNPN2X0QS4pPVL8CB2frJhLeNXA== =AiPv -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Oct 8 03:50:14 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8769D1200F6 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 03:50:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vRZ4E9uHJkQj for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 03:50:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x22e.google.com (mail-oi1-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0830A1200E7 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 03:50:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x22e.google.com with SMTP id t84so14344646oih.10 for ; Tue, 08 Oct 2019 03:50:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Y0J2VRrctnTEUx9fgdRRNtSu6czbR62rWvPmjxg1Ilw=; b=MRgQIvhFxP+uJMMBimul7AIKCohk+SIVEHqxm0RZt6YMdgWloG4GXb8fYO0PukbwSG PplTWW8aPL/dakSBXJB3dvNz8FeMtjXXkecPYzRh0sidhaNRpdwaTu8DB4hVepInRv7M dJIMshhnAjmg48ltF7RFA3Jdj8EkyLniyil5BlA5NMZSEzyIF98j/fQ6LT9+/h1jH7hS iiAUcjgNWyNsZF4RaMMrxZbYVamUeXaTNPCP4WGKmkjCztEtBDtc5tq3TKI1Mrs0wVX7 hUNN6H4g0PgoNcojTejQtsUt6K+KmIZ/hC6w/1nwZ6ajsH4InGqV/ytPUUeB33539F1w IICg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Y0J2VRrctnTEUx9fgdRRNtSu6czbR62rWvPmjxg1Ilw=; b=Qil0We9noE49VTSeY8AtNGBNM8yuAWrZ1LHwQvj2rG0PQhW5v2vg9tHLNYswDiu4Of sQj9DRIn3GhuvYJvEpHhHzCQXqowpPauGpRic3QKy8yHhjc7p/Ty2sAQWVgzBCrfE6BE V8Tsna4M8gDuUtn66VozMhCJPvYi2nyincpnK02FIqRurHGHpBpUl/0Zsyr4Nzg0Ug1c BNr9Qr3rfbYXklFxNTsKXEMKgFR/Y8rgEn4l9Jimq/gMfQyZt6yGtjWSKYjSwKuHFQnA +zUx6p5dzbBMVSsBk5rWIbnxRZSpGuBWoR4WTuA6VUapLgw5VXpgrjX1X/H7AzUCt03V 9hBQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXWGWNucLvXG7EfxkF40uFFrRaXK1XriAbLj5ZHq3HT2I+BEGVl hqN6/lnY+7+qly6n2UE4KY7p8kHOQJ7sXnDoeHn8sRr/ X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwPX99vNwK5qMCCKXLpJbeh1r4/Z0ihqXcXoEc3Fh3fOTrUcxaniyqdwS3sv85tvIoiSyEa1ZaI5XjLffFPJr8= X-Received: by 2002:a54:4187:: with SMTP id 7mr3328598oiy.158.1570531809055; Tue, 08 Oct 2019 03:50:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <24525.1570522873@dooku.sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: <24525.1570522873@dooku.sandelman.ca> From: Kathleen Moriarty Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2019 06:49:32 -0400 Message-ID: To: Michael Richardson Cc: rats@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000965abb059463eef9" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Use case document -05 X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2019 10:50:13 -0000 --000000000000965abb059463eef9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Michael, On Tue, Oct 8, 2019 at 4:20 AM Michael Richardson wrote: > > Kathleen Moriarty wrote: > > I just did a quick review and sent one nit separately before coming > up > > with some more clarification questions/suggestions. > > > Nit in 5.1.4: > > > The > > infrastructure is in control of a single operator and is already > trusted. > > > I think you meant =E2=80=9Cis in the control=E2=80=9D. > > > Otherwise, we are in trouble. :-) > > Oh, yes, that is an interesting change in meaning by the loss of an > article. > ("I for one, welcome our new skynet overloads") > > > Also, what is being validated? The running and configured software > > from root of trust and/or the software from vendors as provided? > > My understanding is that this use case is primarily about the NEA > situation. > Desktops have to provide attestation that they are running a valid > configuration. > OK, NEA is about validating software and controls on systems, it requires an agent to interrogate systems and is too cumbersome for many to deploy and manage. Here we will be evaluating a JWT or CWT if EAT is used, ideally leveraging OTrPv2 from TEEP. There's the attestations that could come from the state of the running system from the "root of trust", let's say TEE. Vendors could also provide an attestation on shipped software that relies upon other software packages as that vendor has tested and is willing to provide an assurance on. > > 5.1.5 > > Would each system really do the assessments themselves? Wouldn=E2= =80=99t it > be > > easier to have a relying party (management station/repository) of > > collected information from each administrative domain? How do you > > scale the interactions in a highly complex data center scenario wit= h > > virtualized systems that are also isolating tenants in container > > clusters for instance? > > okay, let me think about how to rephrase this. > Individual data centers/buildings would act like 5.1.4, but then would ha= ve > to cross-attest. That's why the N:1:M process. > This is the large university with many departments, each of which might > have > their own IT standards, or the government with multiple agencies. > > > 5.1.6 - my question above spills into this one. > > Also note the typo of having medium in this one. > > This is the case where it's every mobile phone in an operator, and many o= f > the phones are BYO. > > > 5.5 critical infrastructure > > Are you providing protection from malware by only allowing specific > > signers or specific attested code or both forms of white listing? > Or > > something else? I=E2=80=99m assuming both forms of white listing a= nd it > would > > be good to explain that if it=E2=80=99s the case. > > This comes out of the side-meeting, about having some critical system > (some safety valve, plant-shutdown switch, Starship > Enterprise-Self-Destruct) > want to know more about the device sending the critical instruction. > I'm not sure what it would be. > > I can see it invoking much of the FIDO stuff too: making sure that the > device > that authenticated the authorizing human was sane. > > > Excellent work on this document! I think we should formally adopt > it. > > Sure, that's a good idea so that it occupy 1st class WG schedule time. > Thank you for your quick response and consideration. Kathleen > > -- > ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh > networks [ > ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network > architect [ > ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on > rails [ > > --=20 Best regards, Kathleen --000000000000965abb059463eef9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Hi Michael,

    On Tue, Oct 8, 2019 at 4:2= 0 AM Michael Richardson <mcr@sandelm= an.ca> wrote:

    Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I just did a quick review and sent one nit separately be= fore coming up
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > with some more clarification questions/suggestions.

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Nit in 5.1.4:

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > The
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > infrastructure is in control of a single operator and is= already trusted.

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I think you meant =E2=80=9Cis in the control=E2=80=9D.
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Otherwise, we are in trouble. :-)

    Oh, yes, that is an interesting change in meaning by the loss of an article= .
    ("I for one, welcome our new skynet overloads")

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Also, what is being validated?=C2=A0 The running and con= figured software
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > from root of trust and/or the software from vendors as p= rovided?

    My understanding is that this use case is primarily about the NEA situation= .
    Desktops have to provide attestation that they are running a valid configur= ation.

    OK, NEA is about validating soft= ware and controls on systems, it requires an agent to interrogate systems a= nd is too cumbersome for many to deploy and manage. Here we will be evaluat= ing a JWT or CWT if EAT is used, ideally leveraging OTrPv2 from TEEP.=C2=A0= There's the attestations that could come from the state of the running= system from the "root of trust", let's say TEE.=C2=A0 Vendor= s could also provide an attestation on shipped software that relies upon ot= her software packages as that vendor has tested and is willing to provide a= n assurance on.=C2=A0


    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > 5.1.5
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Would each system really do the assessments themselves?= =C2=A0 Wouldn=E2=80=99t it be
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > easier to have a relying party (management station/repos= itory) of
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > collected information from each administrative domain?= =C2=A0 How do you
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > scale the interactions in a highly complex data center s= cenario with
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > virtualized systems that are also isolating tenants in c= ontainer
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > clusters for instance?

    okay, let me think about how to rephrase this.
    Individual data centers/buildings would act like 5.1.4, but then would have=
    to cross-attest.=C2=A0 =C2=A0That's why the N:1:M process.
    This is the large university with many departments, each of which might hav= e
    their own IT standards, or the government with multiple agencies.

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > 5.1.6 - my question above spills into this one.
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Also note the typo of having medium in this one.

    This is the case where it's every mobile phone in an operator, and many= of
    the phones are BYO.

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > 5.5 critical infrastructure
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Are you providing protection from malware by only allowi= ng specific
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > signers or specific attested code=C2=A0 or both forms of= white listing?=C2=A0 Or
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > something else?=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99m assuming both forms of= white listing and it would
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > be good to explain that if it=E2=80=99s the case.

    This comes out of the side-meeting, about having some critical system
    (some safety valve, plant-shutdown switch, Starship Enterprise-Self-Destruc= t)
    want to know more about the device sending the critical instruction.
    I'm not sure what it would be.

    I can see it invoking much of the FIDO stuff too: making sure that the devi= ce
    that authenticated the authorizing human was sane.

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Excellent work on this document!=C2=A0 I think we should= formally adopt it.

    Sure, that's a good idea so that it occupy 1st class WG schedule time.<= br>

    Thank you for your quick response and c= onsideration.
    Kathleen=C2=A0

    --
    ]=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Never tell me the o= dds!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| ipv6 me= sh networks [
    ]=C2=A0 =C2=A0Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 | network architect=C2=A0 [
    ]=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= mcr@sandelman.ca=C2=A0 http://www.sandelman.ca/=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=A0ruby on rails=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [



    --

    Best regards,
    Kathleen
    --000000000000965abb059463eef9-- From nobody Tue Oct 8 04:05:30 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDCF01200B7 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 04:05:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yt2CYgpLOqRU for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 04:05:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x22d.google.com (mail-oi1-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E47DD120089 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 04:05:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x22d.google.com with SMTP id k9so14394707oib.7 for ; Tue, 08 Oct 2019 04:05:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=6FDnERYBVvAppyCpAmlYa0HG3i6Lh4EKi2bCk9dA5L4=; b=c14TIOIlaAbhZ96fz2L1OziNp/3Y5a/0LAnD0GUZaPb9K8PIp9Od5D5cNt0ur6RLui sCZ9POTNV8uBAqlUFP/5uvw/4xOmd/mjJ4an91ioKkyerjOKAWjJT5ybWFIhBMyCVkzV PtiFGYg+hjd9UqoGcct0RyiDvW2+mIL+9Vh+eptVlmSyPyJKYuJ4iIORszCd8p4pcOYF m1sGXZCx+0YBlVt4KAvZdRNb0f0dCUoiubJgZKdYCAmfMYl55rLuVfVGNdtDRsIHOgbM 1rLQOqU1f67p9dbuG2YQUX6Vdw4YfJuFvYP/UX6/tnmN99Wu9VQUfNeXwbWLlK0NTiBw sjTw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=6FDnERYBVvAppyCpAmlYa0HG3i6Lh4EKi2bCk9dA5L4=; b=akZngnHys1ZX15cBz/OEpvmE5/g2V4xgOxSr1ew+kCLs+KE56EDi1vKFtztjL3Plak HCVFKAUtMGZQ1qFJh0aXyPml3JDx2nnsPIEEedj7csa2PyycsxmlkI3ySzRNLmgYV6NP r3bJdPvRBBGkZmj1dIJ5igyDr+PyOeDxAsXu4NFuGsd2Ls0vA37RNkZsQbus976CeOub s1xk8lQ1Y+jTeiS4ij9qGVCxDke73aw3RowlgPetx3al+Xqw/1SuhmRRFI2IImoNuKKE iwpcmJMX9QWwYi3CZiO21nnkr6VClTghXboi6ZaD0ddkYlyME9bcimBUXhbVNpJ/62HD jLBg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWFzHuT0Ayw4DYjqxRK1D5H8hI5OTd7n3CH7kSCW3fUagFF0duL cD/W1RGEW3+ngIKKgXeotHdjI9j/Fbk1vWTWlaI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqztTMYWolmgpDyk7GkH6cAXMHxs/rDWhyGclgIsaRG4NpSXiBvsCDsvZKMp7SYXoO0uH2RzYuCNrgKZbVebpfg= X-Received: by 2002:aca:4744:: with SMTP id u65mr3216342oia.164.1570532725181; Tue, 08 Oct 2019 04:05:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1882.1570451614@dooku.sandelman.ca> <29358179-382F-4660-B012-0327274343AE@intel.com> In-Reply-To: <29358179-382F-4660-B012-0327274343AE@intel.com> From: Kathleen Moriarty Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2019 07:04:48 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Smith, Ned" Cc: Michael Richardson , "rats@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000031511505946425c5" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Supply Chain Attestation (was Re: 3 Use cases) X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2019 11:05:29 -0000 --00000000000031511505946425c5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 2:33 PM Smith, Ned wrote: > See inline [nms] > > > > On 10/7/19, 9:09 AM, "RATS on behalf of Kathleen Moriarty" < > rats-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > > > > > On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 8:32 AM Michael Richardson > wrote: > > > {sorry for the time-warp email, responding to you was important to me} > > Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) wrote: > > Supply Chain Attestation > > > A device is shipped from an OEM via some delivery mechanism and is > > received by a customer. The customer requires assurance that the > device > > has not been tampered with. This differs from the usual attestation > > scenarios between a device/element and attestation server/verifier = in > > that this requires knowledge of the partial or full configuration o= f > > the device being shipped and configured before introduction into th= e > > customer's environment. > > > This use case then requires interaction between two attestation > points > > to ensure that the integrity of the device has not changed with > regards > > to a) the device, b) the original [possibly partial] configuration, > c) > > the device manufacturer's measurements and d) the receiver - > customer's > > - measurements.. > > There are quite a number of entities that are looking for the attestation > that involves not the device, but the configuration as well. > > I think that this fits into 5.1: Device Capabilities/Firmware Attestion. > I think that the need for sensitivity to configuration is generally > something > that the TCG RIV work: > The TCG RIV Reference Document addresses the problem of knowing if a > networking device > should be part of a network, if it belongs to the operator, and if i= t > is RUNNING > APPROPRIATE SOFTWARE. > > Guy has posted their document as > draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation, which > makes it much more accessible if you aren't a TCG member (I'm not). > > You allude (but are perhaps not explicit enough) in your second paragraph > that there is some interaction between different attesters to generate th= e > required set of claims needed. Do you imagine that this is done via > multiple > signatures on a claim set, or some kind of nested claim structure, or > perhaps > use of passport claim for one part, followed by a background-check style > process for the second. (Dave Thaler's slides included that option too) > > > > I would guess a nested claim structure so that you could 'wrap' a claim > set and signature of code that is relied upon. > > [nms] In a decomposition of a device there can be components that are > =E2=80=98attested=E2=80=99 and components that are =E2=80=98attesting=E2= =80=99. The architecture expects > that for every attested component there SHOULD be at least one attesting > component. Nesting and decomposition logic needs to preserve these trust > relationships. The expectation of a Verifier is the/a correct decompositi= on > is known and will be the basis for assessing Evidence where Evidence > nesting structure should provide proof that the expected trust > relationships are intact. Otherwise, that could be a condition for Verifi= er > to fail the attestation assessment. > > > > I think there are 3 classes of nesting logic: > > 1. Subcomponent(s) that are Attested by a parent component (single > layer attestation of a multi-layered decomposition) > 2. Subcomponent(s) that are Attested by a parent component and > Attesting other subcomponents (layered attestations) > 3. Subcomponent(s) that are Attested by more than one parent component > (e.g. countersigned or co-signed) > > If you are just talking about the TEE case and not the manufacturer signing use case, then the signatures do build from the base. But for what I would call supply chain, the manufacturer or software developing organization is the one to provide the signature and they know what software, modules. or components they rely upon. Therefore, the 3 classes are not painting the right picture for what I would call the supply chain use case. That's why your nesting module looks different than what I stated, where I was talking about what you are calling "endorsements'. > > 1. > > > > Having a standard format and evaluation method (TEEP) for this use case i= s > then very important across vendors int he supply chain. > > [nms] A TEE can be both an Attesting and an Attested environment. The sam= e > TEE can=E2=80=99t be both unto itself however. A manufacturer issued devi= ce > I was referring to the protocol from TEEP, OrTPv2, not the TEE. There are a few use cases and the parties shift for the use cases, I believe there are some use cases that do not require a TEE. > certificate, attribute certificate or manifest can be used to capture > claims about the attested (TEE) environment that has no other attesting > environment. (FYI - Much of the industry would call this a root of trust)= . > The mfg issued cert / manifest is considered by the architecture to be > =E2=80=9CEndorsement=E2=80=9D values since there isn=E2=80=99t an Attesti= ng environment (on the > platform) that produces Evidence. The architecture draws a line between > devices as principal entities and manufacturers as principal entities. Th= e > former relating to Attestation Evidence and the latter to Asserters and > Endorsements. > Best regards, Kathleen > > > Your other suggestion could work as well, but the consistent ablity to > validate will be very important. I'd like to follow the discussion and > thoughts of others. > > > > Best regards, > > Kathleen > > -- > ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh > networks [ > ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network > architect [ > ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on > rails [ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > > > > > -- > > > > Best regards, > > Kathleen > --=20 Best regards, Kathleen --00000000000031511505946425c5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


    =
    On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 2:33 PM Smith,= Ned <ned.smith@intel.com>= wrote:

    See inline [nms]

    =C2=A0

    On 10/7/19, 9:09 AM, &qu= ot;RATS on behalf of Kathleen Moriarty" <rats-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of kathl= een.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 8= :32 AM Michael Richardson <mcr@sandelman.ca> wrote:


    {sorry for the time-warp email, responding to you was important to me}

    Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com> wrote: =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Supply Chain Attestation

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > A device is shipped from an OEM via some delivery mechan= ism and is
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > received by a customer. The customer requires assurance = that the device
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > has not been tampered with. This differs from the usual = attestation
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > scenarios between a device/element and attestation serve= r/verifier in
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > that this requires knowledge of the partial or full conf= iguration of
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > the device being shipped and configured before introduct= ion into the
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > customer's environment.

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > This use case then requires interaction between two atte= station points
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > to ensure that the integrity of the device has not chang= ed with regards
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > to a) the device, b) the original [possibly partial] con= figuration, c)
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > the device manufacturer's measurements and d) the re= ceiver - customer's
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > - measurements..

    There are quite a number of entities that are looking for the attestation that involves not the device, but the configuration as well.

    I think that this fits into 5.1: Device Capabilities/Firmware Attestion. I think that the need for sensitivity to configuration is generally somethi= ng
    that the TCG RIV work:
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The TCG RIV Reference Document addresses the problem of= knowing if a networking device
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0should be part of a network, if it belongs to the opera= tor, and if it is RUNNING
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0APPROPRIATE SOFTWARE.

    Guy has posted their document as draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attesta= tion, which
    makes it much more accessible if you aren't a TCG member (I'm not).=

    You allude (but are perhaps not explicit enough) in your second paragraph that there is some interaction between different attesters to generate the<= br> required set of claims needed.=C2=A0 Do you imagine that this is done via m= ultiple
    signatures on a claim set, or some kind of nested claim structure, or perha= ps
    use of passport claim for one part, followed by a background-check style process for the second. (Dave Thaler's slides included that option too)=

    =C2=A0

    I would guess a nested c= laim structure so that you could 'wrap'=C2=A0 a claim set and signa= ture of code that is relied upon.=C2=A0

    [nms] In a decomposition of a device there can be co= mponents that are =E2=80=98attested=E2=80=99 and components that are =E2=80= =98attesting=E2=80=99. The architecture expects that for every attested com= ponent there SHOULD be at least one attesting component. Nesting and decomposition logic needs to preserve these trust relationships. The expec= tation of a Verifier is the/a correct decomposition is known and will be th= e basis for assessing Evidence where Evidence nesting structure should prov= ide proof that the expected trust relationships are intact. Otherwise, that could be a condition for Verifie= r to fail the attestation assessment.

    =C2=A0

    I think there are 3 classes of nesting logic:=

    1. Subcomponent(s) that are Attested by a parent component (single= layer attestation of a multi-layered decomposition)
    2. Subcomponent(s) that are Attested by a parent component =C2=A0and A= ttesting other subcomponents (layered attestations)
    3. Subcomponent(s) that are Attested by more than one parent component = (e.g. countersigned or co-signed)

    If you are just talking about the TEE case a= nd not the manufacturer signing use case, then the signatures do build from= the base.=C2=A0 But for what I would call supply chain, the manufacturer o= r software developing organization is the one to provide the signature and = they know what software, modules. or components they rely upon.=C2=A0 There= fore, the 3 classes are not painting the right picture for what I would cal= l the supply chain use case.=C2=A0 That's why your nesting module looks= different than what I stated, where I was talking about what you are calli= ng "endorsements'.

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    Having a standard format= and evaluation method (TEEP) for this use case is then very important acro= ss vendors int he supply chain.=C2=A0

    [nms] A TEE can be both an Attesting and an Attested= environment. The same TEE can=E2=80=99t be both unto itself however. A man= ufacturer issued device


    I was referring to the protocol from TEEP, OrTPv2, not the = TEE.=C2=A0 There are a few use cases and the parties shift for the use case= s, I believe there are some use cases that do not require a TEE.
    = =C2=A0

    certificate, attribute certificate or manifest can= be used to capture claims about the attested (TEE) environment that has no other attesting environment. (FYI - Much of = the industry would call this a root of trust). The mfg issued cert / manife= st is considered by the architecture to be =E2=80=9CEndorsement=E2=80=9D va= lues since there isn=E2=80=99t an Attesting environment (on the platform) that produces Evidence. The architecture draws a line be= tween devices as principal entities and manufacturers as principal entities= . The former relating to Attestation Evidence and the latter to Asserters a= nd Endorsements.


    Best regards,
    Kathleen=C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    Your other suggestion co= uld work as well, but the consistent ablity to validate will be very import= ant.=C2=A0 I'd like to follow the discussion and thoughts of others.=C2= =A0=C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    Best regards,<= /u>

    Kathleen

    --
    ]=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Never tell me the o= dds!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| ipv6 me= sh networks [
    ]=C2=A0 =C2=A0Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 | network architect=C2=A0 [
    ]=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= mcr@sandelman.ca=C2=A0 http://www.sandelman.ca/=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=A0ruby = on rails=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [





    _______________________________________________
    RATS mailing list
    RATS@ietf.org
    ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats


    =C2=A0

    --

    =C2=A0

    Best regards,<= /u>

    Kathleen



    --

    Best regards,
    Kathleen
    --00000000000031511505946425c5-- From nobody Tue Oct 8 04:25:30 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA2B312002E for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 04:25:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4mkudikjksMR for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 04:25:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-x32b.google.com (mail-ot1-x32b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::32b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0F5641200FB for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 04:25:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-x32b.google.com with SMTP id m19so13737327otp.1 for ; Tue, 08 Oct 2019 04:25:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=RoBOtnlPtMXEzRVkmzMEnit2K0XeSyJaRHVX6jWUKQQ=; b=EGxVntoGSF9TbR2r/cA7LbOSzonFj7F3GcmDNwieQ+la+df5iXmLJbW0V/W9h6SPf1 Cm0e5gqgKnhWJ+CfGOPlDa63BteoZGPg29ENwxR5drvKMtsMWBB0meskCzV3wj8wCiYZ ORqcUl0GxMBASNXpaEVbbC2MTqoiky4JJ1mdgvHX2Y8Tx0fztSV/Tyx+Z5p1PDAN5y/C iqM+FhiXssbryOpiaQVNcdW+Fcr/JS/lkEHY1i7qU9tPRL6/X3jd49ZAcLEEgnypkqMM 7C7obzUB+1FvZxUHMmrAVBmUE4j/Dv4gKEMIDCvo90lnvoXXyA1kAGtd0xOHMZWZuGR2 9Oqg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=RoBOtnlPtMXEzRVkmzMEnit2K0XeSyJaRHVX6jWUKQQ=; b=adqmULXwBWMzlLoH9peVEPSc0yb7FZV8PE6ITipzlr5YAqr9uD2oHJJccZGVsqPNEQ ZLMNeQEcXq1pAD7Ne95/77wovdWHHohO5d5kWSfj8/sZqTmE6UjgiTWYma/R+TRBEC11 wtFq2P/jNq+X1PkTFYe+KXYUvchbl79tjI+Bb80k8//YSYyifWmRKywk7uEV+auRrz9y Z3hF2fe+U80QD0VwA0MUO83uli8ctUfYEO2DCUQXzwxHoylgbp5XxUuGWpjUq7+Po7ty +mcpjK1CIU8LA/bdPs/bTPGPzKxQgjRcG2YRHmT0bAT7N60hH522UPI9lEfNUkgRw8SV 1NaQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWjOXpAuxYG9sOXUGCwIdnShuUiVulX6ba/3Qvi+9l0UjyA7Qwt eHr/AYlB6AHAmByOHDoJqnjHs8bOfTpIxOfLvtj1vTGK1qY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxazGx8/lLQbJfSwvDDLh2E+pMoqJnWZBuVitufEo2YafvWBZUPBNjRBFaOWtsURgxGNTnWuMAgnxdfoM4EM9U= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:4e1e:: with SMTP id p30mr15187701otf.224.1570533926036; Tue, 08 Oct 2019 04:25:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Kathleen Moriarty Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2019 07:24:50 -0400 Message-ID: To: rats@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c4eab20594646cf7" Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] Use case -> architecture document X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2019 11:25:29 -0000 --000000000000c4eab20594646cf7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello! I read through the latest version of the =E2=80=98use case=E2=80=99 documen= t yesterday and found it very easy to read and understand, meaning I think it is written well and could be easily understood by many without having to climb up a learning curve. First, this could be a very useful document to register claims for the use cases. Second, if the workflow for the passport and background check were added and put in terms of the open trust protocol v2 from TEEP, we have a fairly nice architecture document that=E2=80=99s easy to read and may gain adoptio= n. The workflows cover the various interactions between roles and TEEP has actively broken up OTrP in v2 to accommodate using EAT tokens, this would help create that link and make it very clear. The other thing I like about the use case document and think we should expand on is the references to other work items. This makes it an architecture document that maps out the full plan of the WG. One like that was extremely well received by all the ADs that don=E2=80=99t like informational/helpful documents. I=E2=80=99m a bit nervous with the terminology being defined and would love= to see something like this that=E2=80=99s simplified and more easily adoptable. I appreciate the work done to improve the architecture document, but I do think the structure changes to the use case document as suggested could result in an easier to understand (and therefore easier to adopt) document. While the architecture document is more readable, I think we can do better. Adoption is important and our timeliness matters a lot for this work. EATs can be used for may use cases with OTrPv2, so let's keep it as simple as we can. Thoughts are appreciated. Best regards, Kathleen-- Best regards, Kathleen --000000000000c4eab20594646cf7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Hello!

    I read through the latest version of the =E2= =80=98use case=E2=80=99 document yesterday and found it very easy to read a= nd understand, meaning I think it is written well and could be easily under= stood by many without having to climb up a learning curve.=C2=A0=C2=A0
    =
    First, this could be a very useful document to register clai= ms for the use cases.

    Second, if the workflow for the passport and b= ackground check were added and put in terms of the open trust protocol v2 f= rom TEEP, we have a fairly nice architecture document that=E2=80=99s easy t= o read and may gain adoption.=C2=A0 The workflows cover the various interac= tions between roles and TEEP has actively broken up OTrP in v2 to accommoda= te=C2=A0using EAT tokens, this would=C2=A0help create that link and make it= very clear.

    The other thing I like about the use case document and = think we should expand on is the references to other work items.=C2=A0 This= makes it an architecture document that maps out the full plan of the WG.= =C2=A0 One like that was extremely well received by all the ADs that don=E2= =80=99t like informational/helpful documents.

    I=E2=80=99m a bit nerv= ous with the terminology being defined and would love to see something like= this that=E2=80=99s simplified and more easily adoptable.=C2=A0=C2=A0

    I appreciate the work done to improve the architecture= document, but I do think the structure changes to the use case document as= suggested could result in an easier to understand (and therefore easier to= adopt) document.

    While the architecture document = is more readable, I think we can do better.=C2=A0 Adoption is important and= our timeliness matters a lot for this work.=C2=A0 EATs can be used for may= use cases with OTrPv2, so let's keep it as simple as we can.

    Th= oughts are appreciated.

    Best regards,
    Kathleen--

    Best regards,
    Kathleen
    <= /div> --000000000000c4eab20594646cf7-- From nobody Tue Oct 8 07:14:07 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 050C5120052 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 07:14:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=microsoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id whLMTVCREkaz for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 07:14:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 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MWHPR21MB0288.namprd21.prod.outlook.com (10.173.53.18) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2367.2; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 14:14:00 +0000 Received: from MWHPR21MB0784.namprd21.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::5d43:ff3f:d4e9:c39c]) by MWHPR21MB0784.namprd21.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::5d43:ff3f:d4e9:c39c%11]) with mapi id 15.20.2367.000; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 14:14:00 +0000 From: Dave Thaler To: Kathleen Moriarty , "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Rats] Use case -> architecture document Thread-Index: AQHVfcsbRzVnmNCx+ki42UJKCiHm26dQyW+A Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2019 14:14:00 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: msip_labels: MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Enabled=True; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_SiteId=72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Owner=dthaler@ntdev.microsoft.com; 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L2h0bWw+DQo= --_000_20D2804C8EE14CC9BDDD6815270EBEEFintelcom_-- From nobody Tue Oct 8 07:27:56 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B04E612083B for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 07:27:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GknDuzaHrk7k for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 07:27:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p3plsmtpa11-06.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa11-06.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [68.178.252.107]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2441B120810 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 07:27:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.120.0.202] ([45.56.150.18]) by :SMTPAUTH: with ESMTPA id HqSti08m5YE8lHqStiK6kG; Tue, 08 Oct 2019 07:27:51 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Laurence Lundblade In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2019 07:27:50 -0700 Cc: Kathleen Moriarty , Michael Richardson , "Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" , "rats@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <21A1783C-7154-4024-82B3-33F6E860B654@island-resort.com> References: <1882.1570451614@dooku.sandelman.ca> <23A51637-C77E-44DC-A9B6-FE64AB3768CD@island-resort.com> To: Henk Birkholz X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfItLKnLKP4mDdeFM3uFxDdaRuLfw/Y7xnZPrCnkqHwA//M1eNX3aI2d7RXmPfjbUfTvO/dZZjH1sQHdkFw6So26UMAcy2IH1pAu9lIdvgVy+fwzu6SNK OvSTxhIcVoCafPtKgMBHFwYDymX6JP3Pt+775a/4+BmALgPpNvIQSgfr8X6tLWfCKh9CSiqc2iuTF40IiKu+AT5+nKC5UoG40P8mCOgxXSk6yOStiHKNxduu E+MmAR77xoz6NbKY/76jq8FQnGAc4Sg1Bh16J+WTMMddIoRFM7LZMqX8uSvOd0lGcoGlkzeQBjPB+2rfUGAtmCOPwB5caMxLE20q/MtEdUs= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Supply Chain Attestation (was Re: 3 Use cases) X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2019 14:27:55 -0000 submods is an array of maps, each map containing the claims for that = submod. Each of these maps also has a text string that is the = submod_name. The submods array itself has a key defined by the standard. So you can do=20 (eat (submods (submod) (submod) (submod) )) where submod looks a lot = like an eat except it is not individually signed and has the submod_name = claim You can also have all the combos: (eat (eat) (submods (submod) (submod))) =20 (eat (eat) (submods (submod (eat) (eat) (submod)) (submod (submods = (submod) (submod (eat)))) As the document stands now there is one key for a nested eat. It is = different than submods. To do (eat (eat)(eat)(eat)) all the nested eats = would have the same key. That is probably not the best and it should go = to the array like submods. We do need better examples for all this. Probably the main eat doc should allow all of this, but profiles should = narrow it for particular use cases. I see submods as used when the two entities are physically connected = together by wires that can=E2=80=99t be easily attacked. For example = they are on the same PCB on subsystems in a SoC. Also the submod is = likely to be dumb and incapable of making an eat. Putting the signing = key to a device in a secure way is hard so lack of a key is probably why = it can make an eat. LL =20 > On Oct 8, 2019, at 12:37 AM, Henk Birkholz = wrote: >=20 > Hi Laurence, >=20 > thanks for the clarification! If you nest a pre-defined submod in an = EAT, I assume the key is defined in the same specification. >=20 > If I nest an EAT in an EAT (Michael gave two good examples that can be = combined), where do I define the key for that? In the nested EAT = specification or in the nesting EAT specification? I'd assume in the = nested EAT specification? >=20 > A special (or actualy the currently most common) case would be the = current base EAT specification. Should that come with its own = "self-nesting" key then? >=20 > Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, >=20 > Henk >=20 > On 08.10.19 03:57, Laurence Lundblade wrote: >> EAT has three mechanisms that can apply here: >> _Nested EATs_ >> One signed EAT is embedded in another signed EAT. The signature of >> the top-level one is across full COSE structure of the nested EAT. >> This is important to bind the nested EAT (perhaps EATs) with the >> top-level one and all it claims. >> _submods_ >> These are subordinate maps of claims that are not separately = signed. >> The relation to the attester is explicitly labeled. For example an >> EAT may span 4 chips each of which has its own OEM and HW Version. >> There would probably be 3 submods plus the chip doing the = attester. >> Each would have an OEM claim and a HW Version claim. >> _Custom Claims_ >> There=E2=80=99s no preclusion to some complex claim with many = levels of >> nesting of maps and arrays. So, no it is not true that an EAT can >> only include a nested EAT. >> As Ned says, the Verifier is likely to expect a lot of this and fail = if not as required. The profile it adheres to might be liberal about = lots of extra unknown submods, nested eats and custom claims or not = liberal at all. >> I after a good structure for all of these that is flexible and = useful. Would be interested in folks trying to use these to construct = EATs for use cases as examples. >> LL >>> On Oct 7, 2019, at 11:45 AM, Henk Birkholz = > wrote: >>>=20 >>> That brings up an interesting topic. >>>=20 >>> If you want to nest objects/maps in EAT, do you have to define a = separate EAT for each layer or can you define nested (potentially = multiple) sub-structures as a single EAT flavor/specification? Like a = "required nesting that is predefined". >>>=20 >>> I'd assume so, but I think that is not spelled out explicitly - as = an EAT can only include nested EATs? >>>=20 >>> Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, >>>=20 >>> Henk >>>=20 >>> On 07.10.19 18:08, Kathleen Moriarty wrote: >>>> On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 8:32 AM Michael Richardson > wrote: >>>> {sorry for the time-warp email, responding to you was important = to me} >>>> Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) >>>> > wrote: >>>> > Supply Chain Attestation >>>> > A device is shipped from an OEM via some delivery = mechanism >>>> and is >>>> > received by a customer. The customer requires assurance = that >>>> the device >>>> > has not been tampered with. This differs from the usual >>>> attestation >>>> > scenarios between a device/element and attestation >>>> server/verifier in >>>> > that this requires knowledge of the partial or full >>>> configuration of >>>> > the device being shipped and configured before = introduction >>>> into the >>>> > customer's environment. >>>> > This use case then requires interaction between two >>>> attestation points >>>> > to ensure that the integrity of the device has not = changed >>>> with regards >>>> > to a) the device, b) the original [possibly partial] >>>> configuration, c) >>>> > the device manufacturer's measurements and d) the = receiver - >>>> customer's >>>> > - measurements.. >>>> There are quite a number of entities that are looking for the >>>> attestation >>>> that involves not the device, but the configuration as well. >>>> I think that this fits into 5.1: Device Capabilities/Firmware = Attestion. >>>> I think that the need for sensitivity to configuration is = generally >>>> something >>>> that the TCG RIV work: >>>> The TCG RIV Reference Document addresses the problem of >>>> knowing if a networking device >>>> should be part of a network, if it belongs to the = operator, >>>> and if it is RUNNING >>>> APPROPRIATE SOFTWARE. >>>> Guy has posted their document as >>>> draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation, which >>>> makes it much more accessible if you aren't a TCG member (I'm = not). >>>> You allude (but are perhaps not explicit enough) in your second >>>> paragraph >>>> that there is some interaction between different attesters to >>>> generate the >>>> required set of claims needed. Do you imagine that this is done = via >>>> multiple >>>> signatures on a claim set, or some kind of nested claim = structure, >>>> or perhaps >>>> use of passport claim for one part, followed by a = background-check style >>>> process for the second. (Dave Thaler's slides included that = option too) >>>> I would guess a nested claim structure so that you could 'wrap' a = claim set and signature of code that is relied upon. Having a standard = format and evaluation method (TEEP) for this use case is then very = important across vendors int he supply chain. Your other suggestion = could work as well, but the consistent ablity to validate will be very = important. I'd like to follow the discussion and thoughts of others. >>>> Best regards, >>>> Kathleen >>>> -- ] Never tell me the odds! | = ipv6 mesh >>>> networks [ >>>> ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | = network >>>> architect [ >>>> ] mcr@sandelman.ca = >>>> http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails [ >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> RATS mailing list >>>> RATS@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats >>>> --=20 >>>> Best regards, >>>> Kathleen >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> RATS mailing list >>>> RATS@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> RATS mailing list >>> RATS@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats >=20 From nobody Tue Oct 8 07:47:27 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E919112011B for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 07:47:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QdafPDR-cpcb for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 07:47:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-x335.google.com (mail-ot1-x335.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::335]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 38623120180 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 07:47:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-x335.google.com with SMTP id e11so14246953otl.5 for ; Tue, 08 Oct 2019 07:47:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=tW3ghV5461Qa2p1/N2qmuIN0M3ehTRZWn2kCGWoPkZU=; b=tLvA3KrMnamTEaaS9zfZQs1Cclg0bQBg+qNIdw6EaaF+LPiyeNnb+zvonR2+n2aSpK L4dhVPY89k0mHDCA/5jKni2DxOxUOsO818a+m4DNsugTPnKAlW+OD9CKN9325XOIv54l uCCoe9qshb+mK8ajvdLu8Tu9d5lASaV8VmRkn8xFBE8DXF0a1QZEbemSttTZ5sI47JLh mTrMh9rkWQ9yrMtPDdsbRW0nkfT2ATbgmkbPRhkINJIlueUqkjI1ut0uG2EPRDWa/tMz Y8fOiae6BPpvtoqI/3YUovUpCwehMCmJTMQuNpdmuDRe/a1YSf5FHmURq5pUXMFPYRrN /paw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=tW3ghV5461Qa2p1/N2qmuIN0M3ehTRZWn2kCGWoPkZU=; b=N0A39cxfsti6lx9vRzmFr2j6KB9/dTRIFY+jmjSCdg9VYGr7D1P7gsaLrk/MQ70bFI hjWTmUpofR/5SMEMYbWvEcpYBPt5pWhUZO7Un+7/NBzwvemMWoos5jsE0jA77CZHlE9F l/p/qtRhZiL8Uf0xDhhzYmIfYJk/O4CxGrnDy0TP9mJjzn28yMgs6rRgBji/lpGfkcne zzPWC7kTQTe0KFeMEFFk+/BUT2Ai7LcDNwvnfSqaRo4a23yOuRknWP+RDboHVUzc7X1O k3ieXQEt1c14qmWUNPhF1pHz+TbX9lFLrMmk4Nn0ZXqb76Gi/nG41I+bGb2MSp7Gkp6+ nD0g== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVIOIn7Saq8xGtsf2LAir2lQujMZs6GAFcX/znDjMCcdppRmaA9 xwP2gVKg07eu5Kyv1YT4BNG77WVBZ6hCYys5NK0MHdrG X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwvfnvj4/nXo8JiLFzN66tmFHNOX7wOkXswfct6e3dYhQ6OchAjkExajhxByUaMDV8eL7CjmmGGK6I7xHLtfm0= X-Received: by 2002:a9d:6642:: with SMTP id q2mr25461391otm.250.1570546042644; Tue, 08 Oct 2019 07:47:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Kathleen Moriarty Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2019 10:46:46 -0400 Message-ID: To: rats@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f9af8d0594673ecb" Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] Tokbind draft X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2019 14:47:26 -0000 --000000000000f9af8d0594673ecb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Greetings! If the working group is in agreement, we will remove the tokbind draft from the list of agreed milestones. If you disagree, please speak up on list before Oct 22 and explain your rationale. Thank you! -- Best regards, Kathleen --000000000000f9af8d0594673ecb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Greetings!

    If the working group is in a= greement, we will remove the tokbind draft from the list of agreed mileston= es.=C2=A0 If you disagree, please speak up on list before Oct 22 and explai= n your rationale.

    Thank you!

    --

    Best regards,
    Kathleen
    --000000000000f9af8d0594673ecb-- From nobody Tue Oct 8 09:31:32 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90F5F12004C for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 09:31:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ybwe_mHE81bW for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 09:31:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p3plsmtpa06-03.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa06-03.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [173.201.192.104]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3DE88120018 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 09:31:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.120.0.202] ([45.56.150.18]) by :SMTPAUTH: with ESMTPA id HsOVi6HfstyxRHsOViIsQI; Tue, 08 Oct 2019 09:31:27 -0700 From: Laurence Lundblade Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Message-Id: <002BF9A4-C144-4998-B586-FACF2FE11B2A@island-resort.com> Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2019 09:31:26 -0700 To: rats@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfDpwbEjaOfm4Aihj99dMwMfbeWE7zLASo9CpA08y8UHppdKy+jndgEo3LWM7arKucNkEp0kJrpdDBKTi6KxXR7T2/iqKR+MkFz3XlI7B0andOJOsW+Fq 0cVP4YoV00GBOms2dwLyCQdFn7kUD8hQR4awRyQoHbYkFm83aUGSgFL6 Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] FIDO and Android are major TEE use cases X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2019 16:31:30 -0000 Want to point out that TEEP / OTRP is a potential TEE use case, but not = yet a major one (IMO).=20 The Android keystore with attestation is just about always implemented = in the TEE. There are extensive APIs available to Android apps today to = use it. What is particularly cool about it is that access to a key in = the keystore can be gated on biometric authentication making it a = keystore that is actually useful to applications. Android SafetyNet is = different and not in the TEE. Most FIDO implementations are in the TEE, some by virtue of using the = Android keystore some because they are an a separate trusted = application. WeChat pay, a major payment system in China bigger than PayPal, uses a = tweaked version of the Android key store in the TEE. Probably IFAA / = AliPay too. Apple=E2=80=99s Secure Enclave is roughly equivalent to a TEE for our = purposes. It is a fully isolated and functional computing environment = that has facilities similar to the Anroid keystone that hopefully = someday will implement EAT. LL From nobody Tue Oct 8 10:17:21 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 571A3120033 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 10:17:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fl9Zn0nwSGzJ for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 10:17:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mga09.intel.com (mga09.intel.com [134.134.136.24]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4EDCB120013 for ; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 10:17:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Amp-Result: SKIPPED(no attachment in message) X-Amp-File-Uploaded: False Received: from fmsmga001.fm.intel.com ([10.253.24.23]) by orsmga102.jf.intel.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 08 Oct 2019 10:17:15 -0700 X-ExtLoop1: 1 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.67,270,1566889200"; d="scan'208,217";a="206683025" Received: from orsmsx105.amr.corp.intel.com ([10.22.225.132]) by fmsmga001.fm.intel.com with ESMTP; 08 Oct 2019 10:17:15 -0700 Received: from orsmsx109.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.11.122]) by ORSMSX105.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.2.232]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Tue, 8 Oct 2019 10:17:14 -0700 From: "Smith, Ned" To: Kathleen Moriarty CC: Michael Richardson , "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Rats] Supply Chain Attestation (was Re: 3 Use cases) Thread-Index: AQHVfSmKYMgPnUiotk21jzEyn2HuJKdPgTUAgAGKNgD///K1gA== Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2019 17:17:13 +0000 Message-ID: <86495ED7-C79F-4827-A0F2-E356B8947484@intel.com> References: <1882.1570451614@dooku.sandelman.ca> <29358179-382F-4660-B012-0327274343AE@intel.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.1d.0.190908 x-originating-ip: [10.251.132.53] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_86495ED7C79F4827A0F2E356B8947484intelcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Supply Chain Attestation (was Re: 3 Use cases) X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2019 17:17:20 -0000 --_000_86495ED7C79F4827A0F2E356B8947484intelcom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 DQoNCk9uIDEwLzgvMTksIDQ6MDUgQU0sICJLYXRobGVlbiBNb3JpYXJ0eSIgPGthdGhsZWVuLm1v cmlhcnR5LmlldGZAZ21haWwuY29tPG1haWx0bzprYXRobGVlbi5tb3JpYXJ0eS5pZXRmQGdtYWls 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Wed, 9 Oct 2019 18:53:40 +0800 From: "Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)" To: Kathleen Moriarty CC: "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Rats] Use case -> architecture document Thread-Index: AQHVfcsiYKYCrvqngU+SmlfsJp0IKKdSI2ww Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 10:53:40 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.134.159.76] Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="_004_C02846B1344F344EB4FAA6FA7AF481F13E9560C0dggemm511mbxchi_"; type="multipart/alternative" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] =?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiAgVXNlIGNhc2UgLT4gYXJjaGl0ZWN0dXJl?= =?utf-8?q?_document?= X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2019 10:53:54 -0000 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No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AP1amPHewmwg for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2019 04:31:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-x32f.google.com (mail-ot1-x32f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::32f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8F36812008B for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2019 04:31:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-x32f.google.com with SMTP id 60so1418896otu.0 for ; Wed, 09 Oct 2019 04:31:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=sgz19LnFbq40Y9rgUPWKtz0dvOTjqP/eTMJFG+zmAZc=; b=WIN+FSck/oaTt3Cpe+kFROTeOCPov+0FgMW5HgHsIPUj1CQsq/GrYZoTTtqPf3kFeE IntUA6Trbsffqgkwy+Yz3G1MT2Rd2H3gpOedppO5TaEUwvFDIDGI09ZPoYQ1hYXpyXip T2dyVpGsIgj4ntjc0gE1zFGsHDB9l2e2tOAw8uwOP0vuJxYc7SbEppzemtfLfU9W3Tnu eW1/+ljiupN2Da+kyVPJBwHV40aAcee+WywJQKQtT0qtGOfTiZVvTAY7UIuKxZOYLpka EB083rANzid18+vXwCbBDHpIIRQYFea1HEvL7fijsM8nsA2h49mtlUDQRqRmZ8Ri//Hc 3X9w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=sgz19LnFbq40Y9rgUPWKtz0dvOTjqP/eTMJFG+zmAZc=; b=LuA8snbFA2fVMp7YQlxqhCWyxkwEGwjafNLrnvcT7z19CldpKR0wJYJ3uSC4e33c9d V/7gee4nrFVhr5ojJKmeUN9OjYjQUZAEMGHlXvYB4ZGClg4uyhuTLhJOlQtjujmZweAO EDuR+dl+KbwLxxjtt+6nJuP9aTjbAdZiUuzCXLbCzmcv4meY3g3aC5YRQSC5mOybjvaG Vtzt70PEfZRYfKWi++IOvROPZivH6Ur2izykIeu7BxXa5msFo0eF8DX5dij5wxW+sZlK VTrYp8aoX+agk9WsBJGA8x4EF9cIfXCkChua8KYQ821zvaI+V3c6xN1cJMKQ+rOTf0Z6 IcUQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVY2YuakMoobza5CRCyhsREszPHCNIGRwaL5GWyqjPoRj24KIWW 1cAQS6oNGtHM2Mag7KB0LjCr7C/9V2/7W2gKCzo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyCwKNpZsI9m/79ksDg9/W9HrTOFSTzumqDa3HFH4tAL72qBm/b21TreF04oUS1b6zGGRN9pJq72+sOgsoqXBo= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:1e59:: with SMTP id e25mr2289813otj.342.1570620709848; Wed, 09 Oct 2019 04:31:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Kathleen Moriarty Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 07:31:12 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)" Cc: "rats@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="0000000000007d3482059478a1a2" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Use case -> architecture document X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2019 11:31:53 -0000 --0000000000007d3482059478a1a2 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007d3480059478a1a1" --0000000000007d3480059478a1a1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Frank, Thank you for voicing your concern. I think some may hold off until the updates are provided, but please do voice your opinions. I agree that this work is too important and as such, readability is a high priority. If you read through the TEEP and SUIT architecture drafts, they are quite easy to follow and understand. That is critical for wide spread adoption. We may be able to find a balance, but I think this exercise may speed progress as we have not decided to adopt this draft yet as a working group item. As it stands, the use case document is not an architecture document, but it could be shaped as such and I'd really like to see if we can do that in short order to have a comparison prior to an adoption call. Best regards, Kathleen On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 6:53 AM Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept) wrote: > Hi Kathleen, > > > > I am very concerned with this new direction and I strongly object. > > > > Current architecture draft goes through a lot discussions and reaches man= y > consensus. Right now, it really helps IETF (Teep for example), FIDO, TCG > and many others. The only issues are on readability, the standards track > and the completeness (e.g., passport and background check are still > missing). It is an very good document and correct terminology is very > important for remote attestation. > > > > About use cases document, Its goal is just to clarify a sample list of > scenarios that remote attestation can apply to and then deduce the > requirements and the following concrete protocol drafts. It is not fit to > be an architecture. > > > > The current architecture is too important for telecom and network > equipment vendors and service providers. I have strong doubts that curren= t > EAT and OTrPv2 alone is suitable for the (virtualized) network > infrastructure situation. > > > > B.R. > > Frank > > > > This e-mail and its attachments contain confidential information from > HUAWEI, which is intended only for the person or entity whose address is > listed above. Any use of the information contained herein in any way > (including, but not limited to, total or partial disclosure, reproduction= , > or dissemination) by persons other than the intended recipient(s) is > prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please notify the sender > by phone or email immediately and delete it! > > > > *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:* RATS [mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org] *=E4= =BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 *Kathleen Moriarty > *=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4:* 2019=E5=B9=B410=E6=9C=888=E6=97= =A5 19:25 > *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:* rats@ietf.org > *=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98:* [Rats] Use case -> architecture document > > > > Hello! > > I read through the latest version of the =E2=80=98use case=E2=80=99 docum= ent yesterday and > found it very easy to read and understand, meaning I think it is written > well and could be easily understood by many without having to climb up a > learning curve. > > > > First, this could be a very useful document to register claims for the us= e > cases. > > Second, if the workflow for the passport and background check were added > and put in terms of the open trust protocol v2 from TEEP, we have a fairl= y > nice architecture document that=E2=80=99s easy to read and may gain adopt= ion. The > workflows cover the various interactions between roles and TEEP has > actively broken up OTrP in v2 to accommodate using EAT tokens, this > would help create that link and make it very clear. > > The other thing I like about the use case document and think we should > expand on is the references to other work items. This makes it an > architecture document that maps out the full plan of the WG. One like th= at > was extremely well received by all the ADs that don=E2=80=99t like > informational/helpful documents. > > I=E2=80=99m a bit nervous with the terminology being defined and would lo= ve to see > something like this that=E2=80=99s simplified and more easily adoptable. > > > > I appreciate the work done to improve the architecture document, but I do > think the structure changes to the use case document as suggested could > result in an easier to understand (and therefore easier to adopt) documen= t. > > > > While the architecture document is more readable, I think we can do > better. Adoption is important and our timeliness matters a lot for this > work. EATs can be used for may use cases with OTrPv2, so let's keep it a= s > simple as we can. > > Thoughts are appreciated. > > Best regards, > Kathleen-- > > > > Best regards, > > Kathleen > --=20 Best regards, Kathleen --0000000000007d3480059478a1a1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Hi Frank,

    Thank you for voicing your co= ncern.=C2=A0 I think some may hold off until the updates are provided, but = please do voice your opinions.=C2=A0 I agree that this work is too importan= t and as such, readability is a high=C2=A0priority.=C2=A0 If you read throu= gh the TEEP and SUIT architecture drafts, they are quite easy to follow and= understand.=C2=A0 That is critical for wide spread adoption.=C2=A0 We may = be able to find a balance, but I think this exercise may speed progress as = we have not decided to adopt this draft yet as a working group item.
    <= div>
    As it stands, the use case document is not an architectu= re document, but it could be shaped as such and I'd really like to see = if we can do that in short order to have a comparison prior to an adoption = call.

    Best regards,
    Kathleen
    =
    On Wed= , Oct 9, 2019 at 6:53 AM Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dep= t) <frank.xialiang@huawei.c= om> wrote:

    Hi= Kathleen,

    =C2=A0

    I = am very concerned with this new direction and I strongly object.<= /u>

    =C2=A0

    Cu= rrent architecture draft goes through a lot discussions and reaches many co= nsensus. Right now, it really helps IETF (Teep for example), FIDO, TCG and = many others. The only issues are on readability, the standards track and the completeness (e.g., passport and background check are still = missing). It is an very good document and correct terminology is very impor= tant for remote attestation.

    =C2=A0

    Ab= out use cases document, Its goal is just to clarify a sample list of scenar= ios that remote attestation can apply to and then deduce the requirements a= nd the following concrete protocol drafts. It is not fit to be an architecture.

    =C2=A0

    Th= e current architecture is too important for telecom and network equipment v= endors and service providers. I have strong doubts that current EAT and OTr= Pv2 alone is suitable for the (virtualized) network infrastructure situation.

    =C2=A0

    B.= R.

    Fr= ank

    =C2=A0<= /p>

    This e-mail and its attachme= nts contain confidential information from HUAWEI, which is intended only fo= r the person or entity whose address is listed above. Any use of the information contained herein= in any way (including, but not limited to, total or partial disclosure, re= production, or dissemination) by persons other than the intended recipient(= s) is prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by phone or email immediate= ly and delete it!

    =C2=A0=

    =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: RATS [ma= ilto:rats-bounce= s@ietf.org] =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 Kathleen Moriarty
    =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2019=E5=B9=B410=E6=9C=888=E6=97=A5 19:25
    =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: rats@ie= tf.org
    =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: [Rats] Use case -> architecture document

    =C2=A0

    Hello!

    I read through the latest version of the =E2=80=98use case=E2=80=99 documen= t yesterday and found it very easy to read and understand, meaning I think = it is written well and could be easily understood by many without having to= climb up a learning curve.=C2=A0=C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    First, this could be a very use= ful document to register claims for the use cases.

    Second, if the workflow for the passport and background check were added an= d put in terms of the open trust protocol v2 from TEEP, we have a fairly ni= ce architecture document that=E2=80=99s easy to read and may gain adoption.= =C2=A0 The workflows cover the various interactions between roles and TEEP has actively broken up OTrP in v2 to accommodate=C2= =A0using EAT tokens, this would=C2=A0help create that link and make it very= clear.

    The other thing I like about the use case document and think we should expa= nd on is the references to other work items.=C2=A0 This makes it an archite= cture document that maps out the full plan of the WG.=C2=A0 One like that w= as extremely well received by all the ADs that don=E2=80=99t like informational/helpful documents.

    I=E2=80=99m a bit nervous with the terminology being defined and would love= to see something like this that=E2=80=99s simplified and more easily adopt= able.=C2=A0=C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    I appreciate the work done to i= mprove the architecture document, but I do think the structure changes to t= he use case document as suggested could result in an easier to understand (= and therefore easier to adopt) document.

    =C2=A0

    While the architecture document= is more readable, I think we can do better.=C2=A0 Adoption is important an= d our timeliness matters a lot for this work.=C2=A0 EATs can be used for ma= y use cases with OTrPv2, so let's keep it as simple as we can.

    Thoughts are appreciated.

    Best regards,
    Kathleen--

    =C2=A0

    Best regards,

    Kathleen



    --

    Best regards,
    Kathleen
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Oct 9 04:56:22 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D253E1200B7 for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2019 04:56:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X0VIdVv7tr1Z for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2019 04:56:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.72.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B21D012008B for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2019 04:56:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (mail.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.84.171]) by mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-10) with ESMTPS id x99Bu3Fv022348 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT); Wed, 9 Oct 2019 13:56:04 +0200 Received: from [192.168.16.50] (79.234.112.245) by mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (141.12.84.171) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.468.0; Wed, 9 Oct 2019 13:55:58 +0200 To: Kathleen Moriarty , "Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)" CC: "rats@ietf.org" References: From: Henk Birkholz Message-ID: Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 13:55:57 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [79.234.112.245] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Use case -> architecture document X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2019 11:56:21 -0000 Hi Kathleen, hi list, it would help everybody, if you could explicitly highlight what the exact issues wrt readability in the current architecture I-D are - always in comparison with the use-case I-D, if it is doing a better job in that part? Jürgen provided a good example of what he found confusing as a first time reader - and that was really helpful and is resulting in ongoing work. Please mind, not everything is fleshed out in the architecture (e.g. the workflows derived from the use-cases). The plan was to aim for a stable nucleus, address the issues raised by the list, go through adoption, and finish the document via the issue tracker in a structured process. In summary, without an actual understanding why you (or others!) think the document is still hard to read, there is no way of compare readability later on also. It would be really good to get more precise feedback on that. Viele Grüße, Henk On 09.10.19 13:31, Kathleen Moriarty wrote: > Hi Frank, > > Thank you for voicing your concern.  I think some may hold off until the > updates are provided, but please do voice your opinions.  I agree that > this work is too important and as such, readability is a high priority. > If you read through the TEEP and SUIT architecture drafts, they are > quite easy to follow and understand.  That is critical for wide spread > adoption.  We may be able to find a balance, but I think this exercise > may speed progress as we have not decided to adopt this draft yet as a > working group item. > > As it stands, the use case document is not an architecture document, but > it could be shaped as such and I'd really like to see if we can do that > in short order to have a comparison prior to an adoption call. > > Best regards, > Kathleen > > On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 6:53 AM Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & > Patent Dept) > wrote: > > Hi Kathleen,____ > > __ __ > > I am very concerned with this new direction and I strongly object.____ > > __ __ > > Current architecture draft goes through a lot discussions and > reaches many consensus. Right now, it really helps IETF (Teep for > example), FIDO, TCG and many others. The only issues are on > readability, the standards track and the completeness (e.g., > passport and background check are still missing). It is an very good > document and correct terminology is very important for remote > attestation.____ > > __ __ > > About use cases document, Its goal is just to clarify a sample list > of scenarios that remote attestation can apply to and then deduce > the requirements and the following concrete protocol drafts. It is > not fit to be an architecture.____ > > __ __ > > The current architecture is too important for telecom and network > equipment vendors and service providers. I have strong doubts that > current EAT and OTrPv2 alone is suitable for the (virtualized) > network infrastructure situation.____ > > __ __ > > B.R.____ > > Frank____ > > ____ > > __ __ > > This e-mail and its attachments contain confidential information > from HUAWEI, which is intended only for the person or entity whose > address is listed above. Any use of the information contained herein > in any way (including, but not limited to, total or partial > disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) by persons other than > the intended recipient(s) is prohibited. If you receive this e-mail > in error, please notify the sender by phone or email immediately and > delete it!____ > > __ __ > > *发件人:*RATS [mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org > ] *代表 *Kathleen Moriarty > *发送时间:*2019年10月8日19:25 > *收件人:*rats@ietf.org > *主题:*[Rats] Use case -> architecture document____ > > __ __ > > Hello! > > I read through the latest version of the ‘use case’ document > yesterday and found it very easy to read and understand, meaning I > think it is written well and could be easily understood by many > without having to climb up a learning curve. ____ > > __ __ > > First, this could be a very useful document to register claims for > the use cases. > > Second, if the workflow for the passport and background check were > added and put in terms of the open trust protocol v2 from TEEP, we > have a fairly nice architecture document that’s easy to read and may > gain adoption.  The workflows cover the various interactions between > roles and TEEP has actively broken up OTrP in v2 to > accommodate using EAT tokens, this would help create that link and > make it very clear. > > The other thing I like about the use case document and think we > should expand on is the references to other work items.  This makes > it an architecture document that maps out the full plan of the WG. > One like that was extremely well received by all the ADs that don’t > like informational/helpful documents. > > I’m a bit nervous with the terminology being defined and would love > to see something like this that’s simplified and more easily > adoptable. ____ > > __ __ > > I appreciate the work done to improve the architecture document, but > I do think the structure changes to the use case document as > suggested could result in an easier to understand (and therefore > easier to adopt) document.____ > > __ __ > > While the architecture document is more readable, I think we can do > better.  Adoption is important and our timeliness matters a lot for > this work.  EATs can be used for may use cases with OTrPv2, so let's > keep it as simple as we can. > > Thoughts are appreciated. > > Best regards, > Kathleen-- ____ > > __ __ > > Best regards,____ > > Kathleen____ > > > > -- > > Best regards, > Kathleen > > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > From nobody Wed Oct 9 06:00:27 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB61E120105 for ; 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(52.135.255.31) by BN7PR11MB2593.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (52.135.253.155) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2347.16; Wed, 9 Oct 2019 14:25:50 +0000 Received: from BN7PR11MB2627.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::f067:b6d2:8855:b605]) by BN7PR11MB2627.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::f067:b6d2:8855:b605%6]) with mapi id 15.20.2347.016; Wed, 9 Oct 2019 14:25:50 +0000 From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" To: "Diego R. Lopez" , Henk Birkholz , Kathleen Moriarty , "Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)" CC: "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Rats] Use case -> architecture document Thread-Index: AQHVfqF+IbjOe8kAO0OE0sucSIoiKKdSVNuQ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 14:25:50 +0000 Message-ID: References: <49962FEC-77FB-46D3-8A18-46E00C0DED33@telefonica.com> In-Reply-To: <49962FEC-77FB-46D3-8A18-46E00C0DED33@telefonica.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=evoit@cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [173.38.117.86] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: e7c60d65-ad1f-471b-acb2-08d74cc495b1 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BN7PR11MB2593: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:3383; x-forefront-prvs: 018577E36E x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009020)(4636009)(396003)(366004)(376002)(346002)(39860400002)(136003)(13464003)(40134004)(199004)(189003)(966005)(14444005)(52536014)(5024004)(229853002)(561944003)(6246003)(55016002)(9686003)(6306002)(99936001)(14454004)(25786009)(71190400001)(71200400001)(30864003)(2906002)(33656002)(66574012)(5660300002)(6436002)(478600001)(45080400002)(66066001)(256004)(66946007)(66476007)(64756008)(66446008)(186003)(4326008)(316002)(86362001)(296002)(66556008)(26005)(8936002)(110136005)(76116006)(7736002)(3846002)(6116002)(66616009)(486006)(305945005)(446003)(11346002)(74316002)(476003)(76176011)(8676002)(7696005)(99286004)(53546011)(6506007)(102836004)(81156014)(81166006); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:BN7PR11MB2593; H:BN7PR11MB2627.namprd11.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: cisco.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: V//f0P/OSNxWLjzodOv5oUi8hZrxUBPMTwyz0thBIh2j7Tq7WORk9qtnE0LrQe9xtx2xfLKlJ8CYAdOeGE3lmuWY62VVAqUr33T5E9V/Zs2ILBS47vKPAsZXvASJAhwYSrGWBGzQcksdfgdCRB7BTPj9t571HkvK7wXIQxSSVOE6PsqF/voQ8l2vnP51byXMvDxEZEso232dqXCXj8MZVn3NNUDtQRPG0dzDHMA4VXvJ7DOE1sw0zOMnD+wR0RiaeXZG2iRrodFb4ONEvjhcyoX9z9WBZVCKC6AP2r2mP5S///dQDvGXJDchyy6xiUiT5fC+u7/Mf36QeTiBiDg3hOdHaar+J7Z2rxl3+1uDed9+O/i310KlRoF324HroYxvVdK0Tkjg/0lilCz9DHm/KlYyO2E6QXzsXvU9Jqz/XH4= x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_05FA_01D57E8B.E9D82C30"; micalg=SHA1 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: e7c60d65-ad1f-471b-acb2-08d74cc495b1 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 09 Oct 2019 14:25:50.2736 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: P9UYIlvfQQMjByt7ME7Ev3JML8TJXvl7lA79HNdAGBWVdWZ+aegL6JIlvSM8cWc/ X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN7PR11MB2593 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.17, xch-rcd-007.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-7.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Use case -> architecture document X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2019 14:25:57 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_05FA_01D57E8B.E9D82C30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have been interested in RATS for two reasons: (1) The YANG model (for current needs) Network operators are already asking for vendor independent ways for = extracting router boot integrity measures. (2) Consistent and precise architectural terms and roles (for our next = needs) I don't believe that it will be possible to explore issues in the WG = without these formal constructs. Such a document is needed for are = discussions like: - when to use the passport model vs the background check,=20 - how to assemble a consolidated "Attester" security posture from = cryptoprocessors on independent line cards, and=20 - how does a "Verifier" understand the relationship between the claims = of physical and virtual components of an "Attester"=20 I believe for (2), the current architecture draft is quite good. While = some wording tweaks wouldn't hurt, I certainly don't want to start over. = In fact I would prefer to see the architecture draft adopted. Eric > -----Original Message----- > From: RATS On Behalf Of Diego R. Lopez > Sent: Wednesday, October 9, 2019 9:00 AM > To: Henk Birkholz ; Kathleen Moriarty > ; Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard = & > Patent Dept) > Cc: rats@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Rats] Use case -> architecture document >=20 > Hi, >=20 > Given my current close-to-outsider position (I am afraid other more = pressing > issues have kept me much further away from RATS that I would have = liked > to), let me make a proposal in the hope this could synthesize both > approaches. I agree with Frank it would be difficult to rewrite a = document > that has gone through a long process of consensus formation, and = rebuilding > that consensus with the additional goal of readability may become = overly > complicated. In that respect, I'd support Henk's comments regarding = the > identification of concrete ambiguities or statements that can be > misinterpreted. >=20 > But, since I also acknowledge Kathleen concern on making the = architecture > well understandable and therefore applicable, I'd suggest we think of > preparing a more readable document (or section if you prefer) in the = form of > describing application scenarios, clarifying how the general (and = therefore > complicated for novices) architecture can be used, and the assumptions > required for that. That would not change the delicate consensus fabric = in the > whole architecture, making at the same time easier to understand where = an > how to use it. >=20 > Be goode, >=20 > -- > "Esta vez no fallaremos, Doctor Infierno" >=20 > Dr Diego R. Lopez > Telefonica I+D > https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr2lopez/ >=20 > e-mail: diego.r.lopez@telefonica.com > Tel: +34 913 129 041 > Mobile: +34 682 051 091 > ---------------------------------- >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 09/10/2019, 13:56, "RATS on behalf of Henk Birkholz" = bounces@ietf.org on behalf of henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote: >=20 > Hi Kathleen, > hi list, >=20 > it would help everybody, if you could explicitly highlight what = the > exact issues wrt readability in the current architecture I-D are - > always in comparison with the use-case I-D, if it is doing a = better job > in that part? >=20 > J=C3=BCrgen provided a good example of what he found confusing as = a first > time reader - and that was really helpful and is resulting in = ongoing work. >=20 > Please mind, not everything is fleshed out in the architecture = (e.g. the > workflows derived from the use-cases). The plan was to aim for a = stable > nucleus, address the issues raised by the list, go through = adoption, and > finish the document via the issue tracker in a structured process. >=20 > In summary, without an actual understanding why you (or others!) = think > the document is still hard to read, there is no way of compare > readability later on also. It would be really good to get more = precise > feedback on that. >=20 > Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, >=20 > Henk >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 09.10.19 13:31, Kathleen Moriarty wrote: > > Hi Frank, > > > > Thank you for voicing your concern. I think some may hold off = until the > > updates are provided, but please do voice your opinions. I = agree that > > this work is too important and as such, readability is a high = priority. > > If you read through the TEEP and SUIT architecture drafts, they = are > > quite easy to follow and understand. That is critical for wide = spread > > adoption. We may be able to find a balance, but I think this = exercise > > may speed progress as we have not decided to adopt this draft = yet as a > > working group item. > > > > As it stands, the use case document is not an architecture = document, > but > > it could be shaped as such and I'd really like to see if we can = do that > > in short order to have a comparison prior to an adoption call. > > > > Best regards, > > Kathleen > > > > On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 6:53 AM Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard = & > > Patent Dept) > > wrote: > > > > Hi Kathleen,____ > > > > __ __ > > > > I am very concerned with this new direction and I strongly = object.____ > > > > __ __ > > > > Current architecture draft goes through a lot discussions = and > > reaches many consensus. Right now, it really helps IETF = (Teep for > > example), FIDO, TCG and many others. The only issues are on > > readability, the standards track and the completeness (e.g., > > passport and background check are still missing). It is an = very good > > document and correct terminology is very important for = remote > > attestation.____ > > > > __ __ > > > > About use cases document, Its goal is just to clarify a = sample list > > of scenarios that remote attestation can apply to and then = deduce > > the requirements and the following concrete protocol drafts. = It is > > not fit to be an architecture.____ > > > > __ __ > > > > The current architecture is too important for telecom and = network > > equipment vendors and service providers. I have strong = doubts that > > current EAT and OTrPv2 alone is suitable for the = (virtualized) > > network infrastructure situation.____ > > > > __ __ > > > > B.R.____ > > > > Frank____ > > > > ____ > > > > __ __ > > > > This e-mail and its attachments contain confidential = information > > from HUAWEI, which is intended only for the person or entity = whose > > address is listed above. Any use of the information = contained herein > > in any way (including, but not limited to, total or partial > > disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) by persons other = than > > the intended recipient(s) is prohibited. If you receive this = e-mail > > in error, please notify the sender by phone or email = immediately and > > delete it!____ > > > > __ __ > > > > *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:*RATS = [mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org > > ] *=E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 = *Kathleen Moriarty > > = *=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4:*2019=E5=B9=B410=E6=9C=888=E6=97=A5= 19:25 > > *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:*rats@ietf.org = > > *=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98:*[Rats] Use case -> architecture = document____ > > > > __ __ > > > > Hello! > > > > I read through the latest version of the =E2=80=98use = case=E2=80=99 document > > yesterday and found it very easy to read and understand, = meaning I > > think it is written well and could be easily understood by = many > > without having to climb up a learning curve. ____ > > > > __ __ > > > > First, this could be a very useful document to register = claims for > > the use cases. > > > > Second, if the workflow for the passport and background = check were > > added and put in terms of the open trust protocol v2 from = TEEP, we > > have a fairly nice architecture document that=E2=80=99s easy = to read and may > > gain adoption. The workflows cover the various interactions = between > > roles and TEEP has actively broken up OTrP in v2 to > > accommodate using EAT tokens, this would help create that = link and > > make it very clear. > > > > The other thing I like about the use case document and think = we > > should expand on is the references to other work items. = This makes > > it an architecture document that maps out the full plan of = the WG. > > One like that was extremely well received by all the ADs = that don=E2=80=99t > > like informational/helpful documents. > > > > I=E2=80=99m a bit nervous with the terminology being defined = and would love > > to see something like this that=E2=80=99s simplified and = more easily > > adoptable. ____ > > > > __ __ > > > > I appreciate the work done to improve the architecture = document, but > > I do think the structure changes to the use case document as > > suggested could result in an easier to understand (and = therefore > > easier to adopt) document.____ > > > > __ __ > > > > While the architecture document is more readable, I think we = can do > > better. Adoption is important and our timeliness matters a = lot for > > this work. EATs can be used for may use cases with OTrPv2, = so let's > > keep it as simple as we can. > > > > Thoughts are appreciated. > > > > Best regards, > > Kathleen-- ____ > > > > __ __ > > > > Best regards,____ > > > > Kathleen____ > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Best regards, > > Kathleen > > > > _______________________________________________ > > RATS mailing list > > RATS@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > > >=20 > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats >=20 >=20 >=20 > ________________________________ >=20 > Este mensaje y sus adjuntos se dirigen exclusivamente a su = destinatario, > puede contener informaci=C3=B3n privilegiada o confidencial y es para = uso > exclusivo de la persona o entidad de destino. Si no es usted. el = destinatario > indicado, queda notificado de que la lectura, utilizaci=C3=B3n, = divulgaci=C3=B3n y/o > copia sin autorizaci=C3=B3n puede estar prohibida en virtud de la = legislaci=C3=B3n > vigente. Si ha recibido este mensaje por error, le rogamos que nos lo > comunique inmediatamente por esta misma v=C3=ADa y proceda a su = destrucci=C3=B3n. >=20 > The information contained in this transmission is privileged and = confidential > information intended only for the use of the individual or entity = named > above. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, = you are > hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of = this > communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this = transmission > in error, do not read it. Please immediately reply to the sender that = you > have received this communication in error and then delete it. >=20 > Esta mensagem e seus anexos se dirigem exclusivamente ao seu > destinat=C3=A1rio, pode conter informa=C3=A7=C3=A3o privilegiada ou = confidencial e =C3=A9 para > uso exclusivo da pessoa ou entidade de destino. Se n=C3=A3o =C3=A9 = vossa senhoria o > destinat=C3=A1rio indicado, fica notificado de que a leitura, = utiliza=C3=A7=C3=A3o, divulga=C3=A7=C3=A3o > e/ou c=C3=B3pia sem autoriza=C3=A7=C3=A3o pode estar proibida em = virtude da legisla=C3=A7=C3=A3o > vigente. Se recebeu esta mensagem por erro, rogamos-lhe que nos o > comunique imediatamente por esta mesma via e proceda a sua = destrui=C3=A7=C3=A3o > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats ------=_NextPart_000_05FA_01D57E8B.E9D82C30 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIMWTCCA0Mw ggIroAMCAQICEF/4eygrVNyNQqMVtWjJrf8wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwNTEWMBQGA1UEChMNQ2lz Y28gU3lzdGVtczEbMBkGA1UEAxMSQ2lzY28gUm9vdCBDQSAyMDQ4MB4XDTA0MDUxNDIwMTcxMloX DTI5MDUxNDIwMjU0MlowNTEWMBQGA1UEChMNQ2lzY28gU3lzdGVtczEbMBkGA1UEAxMSQ2lzY28g Um9vdCBDQSAyMDQ4MIIBIDANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ0AMIIBCAKCAQEAsJq5q6evCnen4nG2 tGZilHiIR8ZiVYRAMr/Aqy6lHHHWvG57qKq6btIViEhFnaL8g9DMuYzgJmhwSnjfIRee9GEFyRXI 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-0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20191009145006.r2pjsoo6jxirah64@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> In-Reply-To: <20191009145006.r2pjsoo6jxirah64@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> From: Kathleen Moriarty Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 12:03:36 -0400 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?B?U2Now7Zud8OkbGRlciwgSsO8cmdlbg==?= Cc: Henk Birkholz , "Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)" , "rats@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000009eba4e05947c6fd5" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Use case -> architecture document X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2019 16:04:19 -0000 --0000000000009eba4e05947c6fd5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would rather see the architectural patterns come before the specific terminology. If you look through the slides from Dave's presentation at our previous interim meeting, he laid out several architectural patterns using the same language that is used in SUIT and TEEP. It is desirable, IMO, to begin with architectural patterns that can be used in necessary use cases. Additional architectural patterns may arise, but we have a nice starting point. See: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2019-rats-02/materials/slides-= interim-2019-rats-02-sessa-teep-and-rats-alignment It defines the passport, background check, and verifying relying party architectural patterns for RATS. It also provides an illustration of how the OTrP model for device state can fold into each of those 3 RATS architectural patterns. What Dave is planning to do is to write text describing these architectural patterns. It will likely be in the language similar to what's been used in SUIT and TEEP as his slides match the terminology. Attestation has countless use cases, and several known architectural patterns to date. The document would first define these patterns. Then, like SUIT, a high-level description of use cases could be included with pointers to other future WG drafts that more fully define the use cases. Any additional terminology that is necessary could then be added, but keeping in mind that we do not want unnecessary terms. If we start from the models, it will be easier to maintain the scope and set of terms. The terms would come from the current document, but language may be adjusted as needed. The specific use case details that map claims could be in a later section with the IANA section defining claims for use cases to be added to the CWT and JWT registry. I work for Dell and would like to be able to bring this work forward for PoCs. However, our teams (like many others) use pair programming. This means the 2 coders work as a team and in our model, they rotate to a new project every 2 weeks. This helps with innovation and other benefits. If each pairing team has a significant learning curve, a lot of time will be wasted and the PoC would not make progress. If the goal for service providers and others is to use this technology (as is my goal), we need to make it something that is accessible to many. The developers at many organizations will use crypto libraries, but will not necessarily be security people. They will be starting from a point where they do not have security specific language nor this very specific set of terms that is being defined. The simpler we can keep it, the better to gain wider adoption. I think if we step back and see what Dave does with the document to define the architectural patterns, then we can decide how we merge content with readability as a goal. Best regards, Kathleen On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 10:50 AM Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder, J=C3=BCrgen < J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote: > Hi, > > I did also look at the use cases document (I think -04) after going > through the architecture document and I must admit that I did not find > it too helpful to understand things better. I did not see anything > architectural in there either. I guess I will read the teep > architecture next and perhaps that helps me to get a better clue. > > For people like me who are not deep into this technology yet, getting > used to the rather specific terminology and concepts is a certainly a > learning effort and I think the architecture document was on its way > to get terms well defined and sorted out. Some more examples or > explanations may help the reader further and I believe this can be > achieved. > > /js > > On Wed, Oct 09, 2019 at 01:55:57PM +0200, Henk Birkholz wrote: > > Hi Kathleen, > > hi list, > > > > it would help everybody, if you could explicitly highlight what the exa= ct > > issues wrt readability in the current architecture I-D are - always in > > comparison with the use-case I-D, if it is doing a better job in that > part? > > > > J=C3=BCrgen provided a good example of what he found confusing as a fir= st time > > reader - and that was really helpful and is resulting in ongoing work. > > > > Please mind, not everything is fleshed out in the architecture (e.g. th= e > > workflows derived from the use-cases). The plan was to aim for a stable > > nucleus, address the issues raised by the list, go through adoption, an= d > > finish the document via the issue tracker in a structured process. > > > > In summary, without an actual understanding why you (or others!) think > the > > document is still hard to read, there is no way of compare readability > later > > on also. It would be really good to get more precise feedback on that. > > > > Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, > > > > Henk > > > > > > > > > > On 09.10.19 13:31, Kathleen Moriarty wrote: > > > Hi Frank, > > > > > > Thank you for voicing your concern. I think some may hold off until > the > > > updates are provided, but please do voice your opinions. I agree tha= t > > > this work is too important and as such, readability is a high priorit= y. > > > If you read through the TEEP and SUIT architecture drafts, they are > > > quite easy to follow and understand. That is critical for wide sprea= d > > > adoption. We may be able to find a balance, but I think this exercis= e > > > may speed progress as we have not decided to adopt this draft yet as = a > > > working group item. > > > > > > As it stands, the use case document is not an architecture document, > but > > > it could be shaped as such and I'd really like to see if we can do th= at > > > in short order to have a comparison prior to an adoption call. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > Kathleen > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 6:53 AM Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & > > > Patent Dept) > > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Kathleen,____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > I am very concerned with this new direction and I strongly > object.____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > Current architecture draft goes through a lot discussions and > > > reaches many consensus. Right now, it really helps IETF (Teep for > > > example), FIDO, TCG and many others. The only issues are on > > > readability, the standards track and the completeness (e.g., > > > passport and background check are still missing). It is an very > good > > > document and correct terminology is very important for remote > > > attestation.____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > About use cases document, Its goal is just to clarify a sample li= st > > > of scenarios that remote attestation can apply to and then deduce > > > the requirements and the following concrete protocol drafts. It i= s > > > not fit to be an architecture.____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > The current architecture is too important for telecom and network > > > equipment vendors and service providers. I have strong doubts tha= t > > > current EAT and OTrPv2 alone is suitable for the (virtualized) > > > network infrastructure situation.____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > B.R.____ > > > > > > Frank____ > > > > > > ____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > This e-mail and its attachments contain confidential information > > > from HUAWEI, which is intended only for the person or entity whos= e > > > address is listed above. Any use of the information contained > herein > > > in any way (including, but not limited to, total or partial > > > disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) by persons other than > > > the intended recipient(s) is prohibited. If you receive this e-ma= il > > > in error, please notify the sender by phone or email immediately > and > > > delete it!____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:*RATS [mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org > > > ] *=E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 *Kathleen Mor= iarty > > > *=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4:*2019=E5=B9=B410=E6=9C=888= =E6=97=A519:25 > > > *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:*rats@ietf.org > > > *=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98:*[Rats] Use case -> architecture document____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > Hello! > > > > > > I read through the latest version of the =E2=80=98use case=E2=80= =99 document > > > yesterday and found it very easy to read and understand, meaning = I > > > think it is written well and could be easily understood by many > > > without having to climb up a learning curve. ____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > First, this could be a very useful document to register claims fo= r > > > the use cases. > > > > > > Second, if the workflow for the passport and background check wer= e > > > added and put in terms of the open trust protocol v2 from TEEP, w= e > > > have a fairly nice architecture document that=E2=80=99s easy to r= ead and > may > > > gain adoption. The workflows cover the various interactions > between > > > roles and TEEP has actively broken up OTrP in v2 to > > > accommodate using EAT tokens, this would help create that link an= d > > > make it very clear. > > > > > > The other thing I like about the use case document and think we > > > should expand on is the references to other work items. This mak= es > > > it an architecture document that maps out the full plan of the WG= . > > > One like that was extremely well received by all the ADs that don=E2= =80=99t > > > like informational/helpful documents. > > > > > > I=E2=80=99m a bit nervous with the terminology being defined and = would love > > > to see something like this that=E2=80=99s simplified and more eas= ily > > > adoptable. ____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > I appreciate the work done to improve the architecture document, > but > > > I do think the structure changes to the use case document as > > > suggested could result in an easier to understand (and therefore > > > easier to adopt) document.____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > While the architecture document is more readable, I think we can = do > > > better. Adoption is important and our timeliness matters a lot f= or > > > this work. EATs can be used for may use cases with OTrPv2, so > let's > > > keep it as simple as we can. > > > > > > Thoughts are appreciated. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > Kathleen-- ____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > Best regards,____ > > > > > > Kathleen____ > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Best regards, > > > Kathleen > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > RATS mailing list > > > RATS@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > RATS mailing list > > RATS@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > --=20 Best regards, Kathleen --0000000000009eba4e05947c6fd5 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    I would rather see the architectural p= atterns come before the specific terminology.=C2=A0 If you look through the= slides from Dave's presentation at our previous interim meeting, he la= id out several architectural patterns using the same language that is used = in SUIT and TEEP.=C2=A0 It is desirable, IMO, to begin with architectural p= atterns that can be used in necessary use cases.=C2=A0 Additional architect= ural patterns may arise, but we have a nice starting point.

    <= /div>
    It= defines the passport, background check, and verifying relying party archit= ectural patterns for RATS.=C2=A0=C2=A0
    It also provides an illust= ration of how the OTrP model for device state can fold into each of those 3= RATS architectural patterns.

    What Dave is plannin= g to do is to write text describing these architectural patterns.=C2=A0 It = will likely be in the language similar to what's been used in SUIT and = TEEP as his slides match the terminology.=C2=A0=C2=A0

    <= div>Attestation has countless use cases, and several known architectural pa= tterns to date.=C2=A0 The document would first define these patterns.=C2=A0= Then, like SUIT, a high-level description of use cases could be included w= ith pointers to other future WG drafts that more fully define the use cases= .=C2=A0 Any additional terminology that is necessary could then be added, b= ut keeping in mind that we do not want unnecessary terms.=C2=A0 If we start= from the models, it will be easier to maintain the scope and set of terms.= =C2=A0 The terms would come from the current document, but language may be = adjusted as needed.

    The specific use case details = that map claims could be in a later section with the IANA section defining = claims for use cases to be added to the CWT and JWT registry.
    I work for Dell and would like to be able to bring this work fo= rward for PoCs.=C2=A0 However, our teams (like many others) use pair progra= mming.=C2=A0 This means the 2 coders work as a team and in our model, they = rotate to a new project every 2 weeks.=C2=A0 This helps with innovation and= other benefits.=C2=A0 If each pairing team has a significant learning curv= e, a lot of time will be wasted and the PoC would not make progress.=C2=A0= =C2=A0

    If the goal for service providers and other= s is to use this technology (as is my goal), we need to make it something t= hat is accessible to many.=C2=A0 The developers at many organizations will = use crypto libraries, but will not necessarily be security people.=C2=A0 Th= ey will be starting from a point where they do not have security specific l= anguage nor this very specific set of terms that is being defined.=C2=A0 Th= e simpler we can keep it, the better to gain wider adoption.

    =
    I think if we step back and see what Dave does with the document= to define the architectural patterns, then we can decide how we merge cont= ent with readability as a goal.

    Best regards,
    Kathleen

    On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 10:50 AM Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder, = J=C3=BCrgen <J.S= choenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
    Hi,

    I did also look at the use cases document (I think -04) after going
    through the architecture document and I must admit that I did not find
    it too helpful to understand things better. I did not see anything
    architectural in there either. I guess I will read the teep
    architecture next and perhaps that helps me to get a better clue.

    For people like me who are not deep into this technology yet, getting
    used to the rather specific terminology and concepts is a certainly a
    learning effort and I think the architecture document was on its way
    to get terms well defined and sorted out. Some more examples or
    explanations may help the reader further and I believe this can be
    achieved.

    /js

    On Wed, Oct 09, 2019 at 01:55:57PM +0200, Henk Birkholz wrote:
    > Hi Kathleen,
    > hi list,
    >
    > it would help everybody, if you could explicitly highlight what the ex= act
    > issues wrt readability in the current architecture I-D are - always in=
    > comparison with the use-case I-D, if it is doing a better job in that = part?
    >
    > J=C3=BCrgen provided a good example of what he found confusing as a fi= rst time
    > reader - and that was really helpful and is resulting in ongoing work.=
    >
    > Please mind, not everything is fleshed out in the architecture (e.g. t= he
    > workflows derived from the use-cases). The plan was to aim for a stabl= e
    > nucleus, address the issues raised by the list, go through adoption, a= nd
    > finish the document via the issue tracker in a structured process.
    >
    > In summary, without an actual understanding why you (or others!) think= the
    > document is still hard to read, there is no way of compare readability= later
    > on also. It would be really good to get more precise feedback on that.=
    >
    > Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
    >
    > Henk
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > On 09.10.19 13:31, Kathleen Moriarty wrote:
    > > Hi Frank,
    > >
    > > Thank you for voicing your concern.=C2=A0 I think some may hold o= ff until the
    > > updates are provided, but please do voice your opinions.=C2=A0 I = agree that
    > > this work is too important and as such, readability is a high=C2= =A0priority.
    > > If you read through the TEEP and SUIT architecture drafts, they a= re
    > > quite easy to follow and understand.=C2=A0 That is critical for w= ide spread
    > > adoption.=C2=A0 We may be able to find a balance, but I think thi= s exercise
    > > may speed progress as we have not decided to adopt this draft yet= as a
    > > working group item.
    > >
    > > As it stands, the use case document is not an architecture docume= nt, but
    > > it could be shaped as such and I'd really like to see if we c= an do that
    > > in short order to have a comparison prior to an adoption call. > >
    > > Best regards,
    > > Kathleen
    > >
    > > On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 6:53 AM Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard = &
    > > Patent Dept) <frank.xialiang@huawei.com
    > > <mailto:frank.xialiang@huawei.com>> wrote:
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi Kathleen,____
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I am very concerned with this new direction an= d I strongly object.____
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Current architecture draft goes through a lot = discussions and
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0reaches many consensus. Right now, it really h= elps IETF (Teep for
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0example), FIDO, TCG and many others. The only = issues are on
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0readability, the standards track and the compl= eteness (e.g.,
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0passport and background check are still missin= g). It is an very good
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0document and correct terminology is very impor= tant for remote
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0attestation.____
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0About use cases document, Its goal is just to = clarify a sample list
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of scenarios that remote attestation can apply= to and then deduce
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the requirements and the following concrete pr= otocol drafts. It is
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0not fit to be an architecture.____
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The current architecture is too important for = telecom and network
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0equipment vendors and service providers. I hav= e strong doubts that
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0current EAT and OTrPv2 alone is suitable for t= he (virtualized)
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0network infrastructure situation.____
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0B.R.____
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Frank____
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0____
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This e-mail and its attachments contain confid= ential information
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0from HUAWEI, which is intended only for the pe= rson or entity whose
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0address is listed above. Any use of the inform= ation contained herein
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0in any way (including, but not limited to, tot= al or partial
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) by= persons other than
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the intended recipient(s) is prohibited. If yo= u receive this e-mail
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0in error, please notify the sender by phone or= email immediately and
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0delete it!____
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:*RATS [mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.o= rg
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>] *=E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 = *Kathleen Moriarty
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4:*2019=E5= =B9=B410=E6=9C=888=E6=97=A519:25
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:*rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org>
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98:*[Rats] Use case -> arc= hitecture document____
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hello!
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I read through the latest version of the =E2= =80=98use case=E2=80=99 document
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0yesterday and found it very easy to read and u= nderstand, meaning I
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0think it is written well and could be easily u= nderstood by many
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0without having to climb up a learning curve. _= ___
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0First, this could be a very useful document to= register claims for
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the use cases.
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Second, if the workflow for the passport and b= ackground check were
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0added and put in terms of the open trust proto= col v2 from TEEP, we
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0have a fairly nice architecture document that= =E2=80=99s easy to read and may
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0gain adoption.=C2=A0 The workflows cover the v= arious interactions between
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0roles and TEEP has actively broken up OTrP in = v2 to
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0accommodate=C2=A0using EAT tokens, this would= =C2=A0help create that link and
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0make it very clear.
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The other thing I like about the use case docu= ment and think we
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0should expand on is the references to other wo= rk items.=C2=A0 This makes
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0it an architecture document that maps out the = full plan of the WG.
    > > One like that was extremely well received by all the ADs that don= =E2=80=99t
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0like informational/helpful documents.
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I=E2=80=99m a bit nervous with the terminology= being defined and would love
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to see something like this that=E2=80=99s simp= lified and more easily
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0adoptable. ____
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I appreciate the work done to improve the arch= itecture document, but
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I do think the structure changes to the use ca= se document as
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0suggested could result in an easier to underst= and (and therefore
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0easier to adopt) document.____
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0While the architecture document is more readab= le, I think we can do
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0better.=C2=A0 Adoption is important and our ti= meliness matters a lot for
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this work.=C2=A0 EATs can be used for may use = cases with OTrPv2, so let's
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0keep it as simple as we can.
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Thoughts are appreciated.
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Best regards,
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Kathleen-- ____
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Best regards,____
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Kathleen____
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > --
    > >
    > > Best regards,
    > > Kathleen
    > >
    > > _______________________________________________
    > > RATS mailing list
    > > RATS@ietf.org<= /a>
    > >     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > >
    >
    > _______________________________________________
    > RATS mailing list
    > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats

    --
    Juergen Schoenwaelder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jacobs Univer= sity Bremen gGmbH
    Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Campus Ring 1 | 28= 759 Bremen | Germany
    Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.jacobs-university.de/>


    --

    Best regards,
    Kathleen
    --0000000000009eba4e05947c6fd5-- From nobody Wed Oct 9 09:15:34 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92B6E12085E for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2019 09:15:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gSPFkmFwiOJd for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2019 09:15:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vs1-xe30.google.com (mail-vs1-xe30.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 37FFD12087A for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2019 09:15:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vs1-xe30.google.com with SMTP id b123so1897490vsb.5 for ; Wed, 09 Oct 2019 09:15:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=/tX4RW526WSbiq7g7Zc8L+lRwI7L1gOdjHUBuQ1YaA4=; b=kbv8xgKRqMDn/Jv5WGEe/ZApDPqea2EVbZHi2Sgzcazm7N3LnY++85j2Mnv2YDO9nZ +Si4ked3hlvF5POxec6REgsQYblRv1TCIDLWmknwbHT+GhGFwZXhxxtIiwcEOhOufVJX UOd5KpdEo6AicKgDSMW534nT89Vo3ef65qNNN3h9g9r07wOFNBXakpNPx08sE0acrh7D kC4kPtM2SrEIEH+m4XHGDq/zAp/DY0NEeLl4T6+3mdS3BD/FMpGtj6U+LoBIMOAooqdS xfUvVzWVgMebFydQULTdBlfXtU9H11qASEwWl5klJtNw4U38ejTLhGb7PXKkRpx07s9l YhPA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=/tX4RW526WSbiq7g7Zc8L+lRwI7L1gOdjHUBuQ1YaA4=; b=akfF02wL+yhpx2+6kwrjk1GTW4NuoxgF5CAOQLe4MHoMhh/jRnqGP+eMla4qaZHHB+ 2uqzJ2sGxuvcjM9twXErqBkagR3ESIZwqQYldryG16LA/spk+48Y2ok9NKGbFA2IKg47 vHlqx+xJzMeHzlLl84KBC1fZC5tgwHTfkw+YuxJuSURi/+w23uKXczKYRvtUFWj/xWKt wRlMWo9cx3kZNpzhXfVnz7PgGkLPTcTT40rubJTCTulYPFoPJ9Kr9OLzpgjN+sskOBbu ejamoA7x5dgR7oglfre+nbqbfaOgLZizsGvLs+7vpSfEx45qCGEhcNTywzaSqOUSpg0w ++cw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVIwR0waquoiJziXYez/qqwYoPEXKzES1GLLuQ7wQ54Fsif/aiG Y8VbwTKycmLs8qCeZGllP7x5rokMs84RShyybf4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyekjMnh2t5UbQbp1pL/UVDvVTB1wcP36mx6GtbnsESL99DvsWMxbqMgr5nYA+FfGvvnzeNW1IAI3AaZT4Qncw= X-Received: by 2002:a67:f84d:: with SMTP id b13mr2309731vsp.136.1570637728271; Wed, 09 Oct 2019 09:15:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20191009145006.r2pjsoo6jxirah64@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> In-Reply-To: <20191009145006.r2pjsoo6jxirah64@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> From: Ira McDonald Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 12:15:14 -0400 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?B?U2Now7Zud8OkbGRlciwgSsO8cmdlbg==?= , Ira McDonald Cc: Henk Birkholz , "rats@ietf.org" , Kathleen Moriarty , "Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000dd53d205947c9747" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Use case -> architecture document X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2019 16:15:33 -0000 --000000000000dd53d205947c9747 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, I am opposed to abandoning the current RATS architecture document. Conflating architecture w/ use cases in one document doesn't make sense to me. Use cases collections (by their nature) should be able to have loose ends and edge cases. Architecture should instead have coherence and some rigor about terminology and structure. I'll be happy to see Dave Thaler's contributions on presentation and organization. Cheers, - Ira Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) Co-Chair - TCG Trusted Mobility Solutions WG Co-Chair - TCG Metadata Access Protocol SG Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG Secretary - IEEE-ISTO Printer Working Group Co-Chair - IEEE-ISTO PWG Internet Printing Protocol WG IETF Designated Expert - IPP & Printer MIB Blue Roof Music / High North Inc http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic http://sites.google.com/site/highnorthinc mailto: blueroofmusic@gmail.com PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839 906-494-2434 On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 10:50 AM Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder, J=C3=BCrgen < J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote: > Hi, > > I did also look at the use cases document (I think -04) after going > through the architecture document and I must admit that I did not find > it too helpful to understand things better. I did not see anything > architectural in there either. I guess I will read the teep > architecture next and perhaps that helps me to get a better clue. > > For people like me who are not deep into this technology yet, getting > used to the rather specific terminology and concepts is a certainly a > learning effort and I think the architecture document was on its way > to get terms well defined and sorted out. Some more examples or > explanations may help the reader further and I believe this can be > achieved. > > /js > > On Wed, Oct 09, 2019 at 01:55:57PM +0200, Henk Birkholz wrote: > > Hi Kathleen, > > hi list, > > > > it would help everybody, if you could explicitly highlight what the exa= ct > > issues wrt readability in the current architecture I-D are - always in > > comparison with the use-case I-D, if it is doing a better job in that > part? > > > > J=C3=BCrgen provided a good example of what he found confusing as a fir= st time > > reader - and that was really helpful and is resulting in ongoing work. > > > > Please mind, not everything is fleshed out in the architecture (e.g. th= e > > workflows derived from the use-cases). The plan was to aim for a stable > > nucleus, address the issues raised by the list, go through adoption, an= d > > finish the document via the issue tracker in a structured process. > > > > In summary, without an actual understanding why you (or others!) think > the > > document is still hard to read, there is no way of compare readability > later > > on also. It would be really good to get more precise feedback on that. > > > > Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, > > > > Henk > > > > > > > > > > On 09.10.19 13:31, Kathleen Moriarty wrote: > > > Hi Frank, > > > > > > Thank you for voicing your concern. I think some may hold off until > the > > > updates are provided, but please do voice your opinions. I agree tha= t > > > this work is too important and as such, readability is a high priorit= y. > > > If you read through the TEEP and SUIT architecture drafts, they are > > > quite easy to follow and understand. That is critical for wide sprea= d > > > adoption. We may be able to find a balance, but I think this exercis= e > > > may speed progress as we have not decided to adopt this draft yet as = a > > > working group item. > > > > > > As it stands, the use case document is not an architecture document, > but > > > it could be shaped as such and I'd really like to see if we can do th= at > > > in short order to have a comparison prior to an adoption call. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > Kathleen > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 6:53 AM Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & > > > Patent Dept) > > > wrote: > > > > > > Hi Kathleen,____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > I am very concerned with this new direction and I strongly > object.____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > Current architecture draft goes through a lot discussions and > > > reaches many consensus. Right now, it really helps IETF (Teep for > > > example), FIDO, TCG and many others. The only issues are on > > > readability, the standards track and the completeness (e.g., > > > passport and background check are still missing). It is an very > good > > > document and correct terminology is very important for remote > > > attestation.____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > About use cases document, Its goal is just to clarify a sample li= st > > > of scenarios that remote attestation can apply to and then deduce > > > the requirements and the following concrete protocol drafts. It i= s > > > not fit to be an architecture.____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > The current architecture is too important for telecom and network > > > equipment vendors and service providers. I have strong doubts tha= t > > > current EAT and OTrPv2 alone is suitable for the (virtualized) > > > network infrastructure situation.____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > B.R.____ > > > > > > Frank____ > > > > > > ____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > This e-mail and its attachments contain confidential information > > > from HUAWEI, which is intended only for the person or entity whos= e > > > address is listed above. Any use of the information contained > herein > > > in any way (including, but not limited to, total or partial > > > disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) by persons other than > > > the intended recipient(s) is prohibited. If you receive this e-ma= il > > > in error, please notify the sender by phone or email immediately > and > > > delete it!____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:*RATS [mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org > > > ] *=E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 *Kathleen Mor= iarty > > > *=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4:*2019=E5=B9=B410=E6=9C=888= =E6=97=A519:25 > > > *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:*rats@ietf.org > > > *=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98:*[Rats] Use case -> architecture document____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > Hello! > > > > > > I read through the latest version of the =E2=80=98use case=E2=80= =99 document > > > yesterday and found it very easy to read and understand, meaning = I > > > think it is written well and could be easily understood by many > > > without having to climb up a learning curve. ____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > First, this could be a very useful document to register claims fo= r > > > the use cases. > > > > > > Second, if the workflow for the passport and background check wer= e > > > added and put in terms of the open trust protocol v2 from TEEP, w= e > > > have a fairly nice architecture document that=E2=80=99s easy to r= ead and > may > > > gain adoption. The workflows cover the various interactions > between > > > roles and TEEP has actively broken up OTrP in v2 to > > > accommodate using EAT tokens, this would help create that link an= d > > > make it very clear. > > > > > > The other thing I like about the use case document and think we > > > should expand on is the references to other work items. This mak= es > > > it an architecture document that maps out the full plan of the WG= . > > > One like that was extremely well received by all the ADs that don=E2= =80=99t > > > like informational/helpful documents. > > > > > > I=E2=80=99m a bit nervous with the terminology being defined and = would love > > > to see something like this that=E2=80=99s simplified and more eas= ily > > > adoptable. ____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > I appreciate the work done to improve the architecture document, > but > > > I do think the structure changes to the use case document as > > > suggested could result in an easier to understand (and therefore > > > easier to adopt) document.____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > While the architecture document is more readable, I think we can = do > > > better. Adoption is important and our timeliness matters a lot f= or > > > this work. EATs can be used for may use cases with OTrPv2, so > let's > > > keep it as simple as we can. > > > > > > Thoughts are appreciated. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > Kathleen-- ____ > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > Best regards,____ > > > > > > Kathleen____ > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Best regards, > > > Kathleen > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > RATS mailing list > > > RATS@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > RATS mailing list > > RATS@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > --000000000000dd53d205947c9747 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Hi,

    I am opposed to abandoni= ng the current RATS architecture document.

    Conflat= ing architecture w/ use cases in one document doesn't make
    se= nse to me.=C2=A0 Use cases collections (by their nature) should be able
    to have loose ends and edge cases.=C2=A0 Architecture should instead= have
    coherence and some rigor about terminology and structure.

    I'll be happy to see Dave Thaler's cont= ributions on presentation and
    organization.

    <= div>Cheers,
    - Ira

    Ira Mc= Donald (Musician / Software Architect)
    Co-Chair - TCG Trusted Mobility S= olutions WG
    Co-Chair - TCG Metadata Access Protocol SG
    <= div dir=3D"ltr">Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG
    Secretary - IE= EE-ISTO Printer Working Group
    Co-Chair - IEEE-ISTO PWG Internet Printing= Protocol WG
    IETF Designated Expert - IPP & Printer MIB
    Blue Roof= Music / High North Inc
    http://sites.google= .com/site/blueroofmusic
    http://sites.goo= gle.com/site/highnorthinc
    mailto: blueroofmusic@gmail.com
    PO Box 221=C2=A0 = Grand Marais, MI 49839=C2=A0 906-494-2434

    =


    On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 10:50 AM Sch= =C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder, J=C3=BCrgen <J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
    Hi,

    I did also look at the use cases document (I think -04) after going
    through the architecture document and I must admit that I did not find
    it too helpful to understand things better. I did not see anything
    architectural in there either. I guess I will read the teep
    architecture next and perhaps that helps me to get a better clue.

    For people like me who are not deep into this technology yet, getting
    used to the rather specific terminology and concepts is a certainly a
    learning effort and I think the architecture document was on its way
    to get terms well defined and sorted out. Some more examples or
    explanations may help the reader further and I believe this can be
    achieved.

    /js

    On Wed, Oct 09, 2019 at 01:55:57PM +0200, Henk Birkholz wrote:
    > Hi Kathleen,
    > hi list,
    >
    > it would help everybody, if you could explicitly highlight what the ex= act
    > issues wrt readability in the current architecture I-D are - always in=
    > comparison with the use-case I-D, if it is doing a better job in that = part?
    >
    > J=C3=BCrgen provided a good example of what he found confusing as a fi= rst time
    > reader - and that was really helpful and is resulting in ongoing work.=
    >
    > Please mind, not everything is fleshed out in the architecture (e.g. t= he
    > workflows derived from the use-cases). The plan was to aim for a stabl= e
    > nucleus, address the issues raised by the list, go through adoption, a= nd
    > finish the document via the issue tracker in a structured process.
    >
    > In summary, without an actual understanding why you (or others!) think= the
    > document is still hard to read, there is no way of compare readability= later
    > on also. It would be really good to get more precise feedback on that.=
    >
    > Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
    >
    > Henk
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > On 09.10.19 13:31, Kathleen Moriarty wrote:
    > > Hi Frank,
    > >
    > > Thank you for voicing your concern.=C2=A0 I think some may hold o= ff until the
    > > updates are provided, but please do voice your opinions.=C2=A0 I = agree that
    > > this work is too important and as such, readability is a high=C2= =A0priority.
    > > If you read through the TEEP and SUIT architecture drafts, they a= re
    > > quite easy to follow and understand.=C2=A0 That is critical for w= ide spread
    > > adoption.=C2=A0 We may be able to find a balance, but I think thi= s exercise
    > > may speed progress as we have not decided to adopt this draft yet= as a
    > > working group item.
    > >
    > > As it stands, the use case document is not an architecture docume= nt, but
    > > it could be shaped as such and I'd really like to see if we c= an do that
    > > in short order to have a comparison prior to an adoption call. > >
    > > Best regards,
    > > Kathleen
    > >
    > > On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 6:53 AM Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard = &
    > > Patent Dept) <frank.xialiang@huawei.com
    > > <mailto:frank.xialiang@huawei.com>> wrote:
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi Kathleen,____
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I am very concerned with this new direction an= d I strongly object.____
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Current architecture draft goes through a lot = discussions and
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0reaches many consensus. Right now, it really h= elps IETF (Teep for
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0example), FIDO, TCG and many others. The only = issues are on
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0readability, the standards track and the compl= eteness (e.g.,
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0passport and background check are still missin= g). It is an very good
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0document and correct terminology is very impor= tant for remote
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0attestation.____
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0About use cases document, Its goal is just to = clarify a sample list
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of scenarios that remote attestation can apply= to and then deduce
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the requirements and the following concrete pr= otocol drafts. It is
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0not fit to be an architecture.____
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The current architecture is too important for = telecom and network
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0equipment vendors and service providers. I hav= e strong doubts that
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0current EAT and OTrPv2 alone is suitable for t= he (virtualized)
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0network infrastructure situation.____
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0B.R.____
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Frank____
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0____
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This e-mail and its attachments contain confid= ential information
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0from HUAWEI, which is intended only for the pe= rson or entity whose
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0address is listed above. Any use of the inform= ation contained herein
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0in any way (including, but not limited to, tot= al or partial
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) by= persons other than
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the intended recipient(s) is prohibited. If yo= u receive this e-mail
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0in error, please notify the sender by phone or= email immediately and
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0delete it!____
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:*RATS [mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.o= rg
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>] *=E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 = *Kathleen Moriarty
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4:*2019=E5= =B9=B410=E6=9C=888=E6=97=A519:25
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:*rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org>
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98:*[Rats] Use case -> arc= hitecture document____
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hello!
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I read through the latest version of the =E2= =80=98use case=E2=80=99 document
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0yesterday and found it very easy to read and u= nderstand, meaning I
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0think it is written well and could be easily u= nderstood by many
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0without having to climb up a learning curve. _= ___
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0First, this could be a very useful document to= register claims for
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the use cases.
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Second, if the workflow for the passport and b= ackground check were
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0added and put in terms of the open trust proto= col v2 from TEEP, we
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0have a fairly nice architecture document that= =E2=80=99s easy to read and may
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0gain adoption.=C2=A0 The workflows cover the v= arious interactions between
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0roles and TEEP has actively broken up OTrP in = v2 to
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0accommodate=C2=A0using EAT tokens, this would= =C2=A0help create that link and
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0make it very clear.
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The other thing I like about the use case docu= ment and think we
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0should expand on is the references to other wo= rk items.=C2=A0 This makes
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0it an architecture document that maps out the = full plan of the WG.
    > > One like that was extremely well received by all the ADs that don= =E2=80=99t
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0like informational/helpful documents.
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I=E2=80=99m a bit nervous with the terminology= being defined and would love
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to see something like this that=E2=80=99s simp= lified and more easily
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0adoptable. ____
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I appreciate the work done to improve the arch= itecture document, but
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I do think the structure changes to the use ca= se document as
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0suggested could result in an easier to underst= and (and therefore
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0easier to adopt) document.____
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0While the architecture document is more readab= le, I think we can do
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0better.=C2=A0 Adoption is important and our ti= meliness matters a lot for
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this work.=C2=A0 EATs can be used for may use = cases with OTrPv2, so let's
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0keep it as simple as we can.
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Thoughts are appreciated.
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Best regards,
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Kathleen-- ____
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Best regards,____
    > >
    > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Kathleen____
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > --
    > >
    > > Best regards,
    > > Kathleen
    > >
    > > _______________________________________________
    > > RATS mailing list
    > > RATS@ietf.org<= /a>
    > >     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > >
    >
    > _______________________________________________
    > RATS mailing list
    > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats

    --
    Juergen Schoenwaelder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jacobs Univer= sity Bremen gGmbH
    Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Campus Ring 1 | 28= 759 Bremen | Germany
    Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.jacobs-university.de/>
    _______________________________________________
    RATS mailing list
    RATS@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
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Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OZYvfsV0mGJE for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2019 09:37:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.72.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3739B120878 for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2019 09:37:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (mail.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.84.171]) by mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-10) with ESMTPS id x99GbauV011469 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT); Wed, 9 Oct 2019 18:37:37 +0200 Received: from [192.168.16.50] (79.234.112.245) by mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (141.12.84.171) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.468.0; Wed, 9 Oct 2019 18:37:31 +0200 To: Kathleen Moriarty , =?UTF-8?B?U2Now7Zud8OkbGRlciwgSsO8cmdlbg==?= CC: "Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)" , "rats@ietf.org" References: <20191009145006.r2pjsoo6jxirah64@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> From: Henk Birkholz Message-ID: <9379d880-2b7e-6657-c547-b37bb7a9e466@sit.fraunhofer.de> Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 18:37:30 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [79.234.112.245] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Use case -> architecture document X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2019 16:38:01 -0000 Hi Kathleen, hi list, while I of course understand your point of "the simpler, the better", I am still a bit of at a loss, what the actual issue is. You are proposing a solution to a problem that I currently have not seen being described yet. Maybe we should do things in order and describe the problem better first and then see how to resolve it inside the existing document? That is basically the reason for my request to you on actual issues in my last comment. I understand the category of the problem "readability" and I assume analogously "comprehensibility", of course, but I think that is too vague to actually act on. What you are describing with respect to workflow diagrams that is using the roles - Dave did already provided those and walked us through them for example at the first interim, and we are doing ASCII art on them currently. In fact, that very first action item wrt what we are working on (well, we paralleled some other items, too) back in early September was: > * to elaborate on the use of RATS Principals, including more exemplary diagrams of RATS Role composition and interaction between RATS Principals based on the use case document (and by that address a unified mapping to TEEP, RIV, and models that use EAT) So what am I hearing now is that Dave is now starting to do the exact same thing, with the exception of not using the terms defined in the architecture. Is that correct? I am still not sure what issues we are trying to address here. Viele Grüße, Henk p.s. with respect to pair programming, I really hope that solutions drafts simplify that process the same way the first RATS YANG module does it today, already. On 09.10.19 18:03, Kathleen Moriarty wrote: > > I would rather see the architectural patterns come before the specific > terminology.  If you look through the slides from Dave's presentation at > our previous interim meeting, he laid out several architectural patterns > using the same language that is used in SUIT and TEEP.  It is desirable, > IMO, to begin with architectural patterns that can be used in necessary > use cases.  Additional architectural patterns may arise, but we have a > nice starting point. > > See: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2019-rats-02/materials/slides-interim-2019-rats-02-sessa-teep-and-rats-alignment > It defines the passport, background check, and verifying relying party > architectural patterns for RATS. > It also provides an illustration of how the OTrP model for device state > can fold into each of those 3 RATS architectural patterns. > > What Dave is planning to do is to write text describing these > architectural patterns.  It will likely be in the language similar to > what's been used in SUIT and TEEP as his slides match the terminology. > > Attestation has countless use cases, and several known architectural > patterns to date.  The document would first define these patterns. > Then, like SUIT, a high-level description of use cases could be included > with pointers to other future WG drafts that more fully define the use > cases.  Any additional terminology that is necessary could then be > added, but keeping in mind that we do not want unnecessary terms.  If we > start from the models, it will be easier to maintain the scope and set > of terms.  The terms would come from the current document, but language > may be adjusted as needed. > > The specific use case details that map claims could be in a later > section with the IANA section defining claims for use cases to be added > to the CWT and JWT registry. > > I work for Dell and would like to be able to bring this work forward for > PoCs.  However, our teams (like many others) use pair programming.  This > means the 2 coders work as a team and in our model, they rotate to a new > project every 2 weeks.  This helps with innovation and other benefits. > If each pairing team has a significant learning curve, a lot of time > will be wasted and the PoC would not make progress. > > If the goal for service providers and others is to use this technology > (as is my goal), we need to make it something that is accessible to > many.  The developers at many organizations will use crypto libraries, > but will not necessarily be security people.  They will be starting from > a point where they do not have security specific language nor this very > specific set of terms that is being defined.  The simpler we can keep > it, the better to gain wider adoption. > > I think if we step back and see what Dave does with the document to > define the architectural patterns, then we can decide how we merge > content with readability as a goal. > > Best regards, > Kathleen > > On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 10:50 AM Schönwälder, Jürgen > > wrote: > > Hi, > > I did also look at the use cases document (I think -04) after going > through the architecture document and I must admit that I did not find > it too helpful to understand things better. I did not see anything > architectural in there either. I guess I will read the teep > architecture next and perhaps that helps me to get a better clue. > > For people like me who are not deep into this technology yet, getting > used to the rather specific terminology and concepts is a certainly a > learning effort and I think the architecture document was on its way > to get terms well defined and sorted out. Some more examples or > explanations may help the reader further and I believe this can be > achieved. > > /js > > On Wed, Oct 09, 2019 at 01:55:57PM +0200, Henk Birkholz wrote: > > Hi Kathleen, > > hi list, > > > > it would help everybody, if you could explicitly highlight what > the exact > > issues wrt readability in the current architecture I-D are - > always in > > comparison with the use-case I-D, if it is doing a better job in > that part? > > > > Jürgen provided a good example of what he found confusing as a > first time > > reader - and that was really helpful and is resulting in ongoing > work. > > > > Please mind, not everything is fleshed out in the architecture > (e.g. the > > workflows derived from the use-cases). The plan was to aim for a > stable > > nucleus, address the issues raised by the list, go through > adoption, and > > finish the document via the issue tracker in a structured process. > > > > In summary, without an actual understanding why you (or others!) > think the > > document is still hard to read, there is no way of compare > readability later > > on also. It would be really good to get more precise feedback on > that. > > > > Viele Grüße, > > > > Henk > > > > > > > > > > On 09.10.19 13:31, Kathleen Moriarty wrote: > > > Hi Frank, > > > > > > Thank you for voicing your concern.  I think some may hold off > until the > > > updates are provided, but please do voice your opinions.  I > agree that > > > this work is too important and as such, readability is a > high priority. > > > If you read through the TEEP and SUIT architecture drafts, they are > > > quite easy to follow and understand.  That is critical for wide > spread > > > adoption.  We may be able to find a balance, but I think this > exercise > > > may speed progress as we have not decided to adopt this draft > yet as a > > > working group item. > > > > > > As it stands, the use case document is not an architecture > document, but > > > it could be shaped as such and I'd really like to see if we can > do that > > > in short order to have a comparison prior to an adoption call. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > Kathleen > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 6:53 AM Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & > > > Patent Dept) > > > >> wrote: > > > > > >     Hi Kathleen,____ > > > > > >     __ __ > > > > > >     I am very concerned with this new direction and I strongly > object.____ > > > > > >     __ __ > > > > > >     Current architecture draft goes through a lot discussions and > > >     reaches many consensus. Right now, it really helps IETF > (Teep for > > >     example), FIDO, TCG and many others. The only issues are on > > >     readability, the standards track and the completeness (e.g., > > >     passport and background check are still missing). It is an > very good > > >     document and correct terminology is very important for remote > > >     attestation.____ > > > > > >     __ __ > > > > > >     About use cases document, Its goal is just to clarify a > sample list > > >     of scenarios that remote attestation can apply to and then > deduce > > >     the requirements and the following concrete protocol > drafts. It is > > >     not fit to be an architecture.____ > > > > > >     __ __ > > > > > >     The current architecture is too important for telecom and > network > > >     equipment vendors and service providers. I have strong > doubts that > > >     current EAT and OTrPv2 alone is suitable for the (virtualized) > > >     network infrastructure situation.____ > > > > > >     __ __ > > > > > >     B.R.____ > > > > > >     Frank____ > > > > > >     ____ > > > > > >     __ __ > > > > > >     This e-mail and its attachments contain confidential > information > > >     from HUAWEI, which is intended only for the person or > entity whose > > >     address is listed above. Any use of the information > contained herein > > >     in any way (including, but not limited to, total or partial > > >     disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) by persons > other than > > >     the intended recipient(s) is prohibited. If you receive > this e-mail > > >     in error, please notify the sender by phone or email > immediately and > > >     delete it!____ > > > > > >     __ __ > > > > > >     *发件人:*RATS [mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org > > > >      >] *代表 *Kathleen Moriarty > > >     *发送时间:*2019年10月8日19:25 > > >     *收件人:*rats@ietf.org > > > > >     *主题:*[Rats] Use case -> architecture document____ > > > > > >     __ __ > > > > > >     Hello! > > > > > >     I read through the latest version of the ‘use case’ document > > >     yesterday and found it very easy to read and understand, > meaning I > > >     think it is written well and could be easily understood by many > > >     without having to climb up a learning curve. ____ > > > > > >     __ __ > > > > > >     First, this could be a very useful document to register > claims for > > >     the use cases. > > > > > >     Second, if the workflow for the passport and background > check were > > >     added and put in terms of the open trust protocol v2 from > TEEP, we > > >     have a fairly nice architecture document that’s easy to > read and may > > >     gain adoption.  The workflows cover the various > interactions between > > >     roles and TEEP has actively broken up OTrP in v2 to > > >     accommodate using EAT tokens, this would help create that > link and > > >     make it very clear. > > > > > >     The other thing I like about the use case document and think we > > >     should expand on is the references to other work items. > This makes > > >     it an architecture document that maps out the full plan of > the WG. > > > One like that was extremely well received by all the ADs that don’t > > >     like informational/helpful documents. > > > > > >     I’m a bit nervous with the terminology being defined and > would love > > >     to see something like this that’s simplified and more easily > > >     adoptable. ____ > > > > > >     __ __ > > > > > >     I appreciate the work done to improve the architecture > document, but > > >     I do think the structure changes to the use case document as > > >     suggested could result in an easier to understand (and > therefore > > >     easier to adopt) document.____ > > > > > >     __ __ > > > > > >     While the architecture document is more readable, I think > we can do > > >     better.  Adoption is important and our timeliness matters a > lot for > > >     this work.  EATs can be used for may use cases with OTrPv2, > so let's > > >     keep it as simple as we can. > > > > > >     Thoughts are appreciated. > > > > > >     Best regards, > > >     Kathleen-- ____ > > > > > >     __ __ > > > > > >     Best regards,____ > > > > > >     Kathleen____ > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > Best regards, > > > Kathleen > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > RATS mailing list > > > RATS@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > RATS mailing list > > RATS@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax:   +49 421 200 3103          > > > > -- > > Best regards, > Kathleen From nobody Wed Oct 9 10:33:44 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EFF51209BE for ; 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Wed, 09 Oct 2019 10:33:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20191009145006.r2pjsoo6jxirah64@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <9379d880-2b7e-6657-c547-b37bb7a9e466@sit.fraunhofer.de> In-Reply-To: <9379d880-2b7e-6657-c547-b37bb7a9e466@sit.fraunhofer.de> From: Kathleen Moriarty Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 13:33:01 -0400 Message-ID: To: Henk Birkholz Cc: =?UTF-8?B?U2Now7Zud8OkbGRlciwgSsO8cmdlbg==?= , "Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)" , "rats@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005fe9ad05947daf6b" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Use case -> architecture document X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2019 17:33:43 -0000 --0000000000005fe9ad05947daf6b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Henk, On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 12:37 PM Henk Birkholz < henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote: > Hi Kathleen, > hi list, > > while I of course understand your point of "the simpler, the better", I > am still a bit of at a loss, what the actual issue is. You are proposing > a solution to a problem that I currently have not seen being described ye= t. > > Maybe we should do things in order and describe the problem better first > and then see how to resolve it inside the existing document? > I tried to provide extensive comments, but they were not considered and I was asked by you to look at the new version again. I spent over 2 days trying to help, but I think to speed this work up, we need to do a pivot and focus first on the architectural patterns. > > That is basically the reason for my request to you on actual issues in > my last comment. I understand the category of the problem "readability" > and I assume analogously "comprehensibility", of course, but I think > that is too vague to actually act on. > I tried to help... > > What you are describing with respect to workflow diagrams that is using > the roles - Dave did already provided those and walked us through them > for example at the first interim, and we are doing ASCII art on them > currently. > As a reminder, we don't need ASCII art anymore, version 3 was released for publishing. If Dave contributes his pictures, we can use them. In terms of how roles are discussed, I think that can be improved further. Can we just wait and give Dave a chance to write up the text he has said he would help with on this rather than trying to all do the same thing? > In fact, that very first action item wrt what we are working on (well, > we paralleled some other items, too) back in early September was: > > > * to elaborate on the use of RATS Principals, including more exemplary > diagrams of RATS Role composition and interaction between RATS Principals > based on the use case document (and by that address a unified mapping to > TEEP, RIV, and models that use EAT) > > So what am I hearing now is that Dave is now starting to do the exact > same thing, with the exception of not using the terms defined in the > architecture. Is that correct? I am still not sure what issues we are > trying to address here. > Not necessarily. His work used terms in TEEP and SUIT. Some of these terms are defined int he current architecture document. Once he has this written, then merging again makes sense so that we can then get language consistent and using what's been agreed upon to date. I think this will actually speed up the work and adoption. It will also lower the learning curve. You've done really good work and I would like the barrier to entry lowered. I would really like to see all of this be successful and don't think this exercise will take much time, but do think it will be very worthwhile. I'd like to see this happen in a few steps as described in my last message. Best regards, Kathleen > Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, > > Henk > > p.s. with respect to pair programming, I really hope that solutions > drafts simplify that process the same way the first RATS YANG module > does it today, already. > > On 09.10.19 18:03, Kathleen Moriarty wrote: > > > > I would rather see the architectural patterns come before the specific > > terminology. If you look through the slides from Dave's presentation a= t > > our previous interim meeting, he laid out several architectural pattern= s > > using the same language that is used in SUIT and TEEP. It is desirable= , > > IMO, to begin with architectural patterns that can be used in necessary > > use cases. Additional architectural patterns may arise, but we have a > > nice starting point. > > > > See: > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2019-rats-02/materials/slide= s-interim-2019-rats-02-sessa-teep-and-rats-alignment > > It defines the passport, background check, and verifying relying party > > architectural patterns for RATS. > > It also provides an illustration of how the OTrP model for device state > > can fold into each of those 3 RATS architectural patterns. > > > > What Dave is planning to do is to write text describing these > > architectural patterns. It will likely be in the language similar to > > what's been used in SUIT and TEEP as his slides match the terminology. > > > > Attestation has countless use cases, and several known architectural > > patterns to date. The document would first define these patterns. > > Then, like SUIT, a high-level description of use cases could be include= d > > with pointers to other future WG drafts that more fully define the use > > cases. Any additional terminology that is necessary could then be > > added, but keeping in mind that we do not want unnecessary terms. If w= e > > start from the models, it will be easier to maintain the scope and set > > of terms. The terms would come from the current document, but language > > may be adjusted as needed. > > > > The specific use case details that map claims could be in a later > > section with the IANA section defining claims for use cases to be added > > to the CWT and JWT registry. > > > > I work for Dell and would like to be able to bring this work forward fo= r > > PoCs. However, our teams (like many others) use pair programming. Thi= s > > means the 2 coders work as a team and in our model, they rotate to a ne= w > > project every 2 weeks. This helps with innovation and other benefits. > > If each pairing team has a significant learning curve, a lot of time > > will be wasted and the PoC would not make progress. > > > > If the goal for service providers and others is to use this technology > > (as is my goal), we need to make it something that is accessible to > > many. The developers at many organizations will use crypto libraries, > > but will not necessarily be security people. They will be starting fro= m > > a point where they do not have security specific language nor this very > > specific set of terms that is being defined. The simpler we can keep > > it, the better to gain wider adoption. > > > > I think if we step back and see what Dave does with the document to > > define the architectural patterns, then we can decide how we merge > > content with readability as a goal. > > > > Best regards, > > Kathleen > > > > On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 10:50 AM Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder, J=C3=BCrgen > > > > wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > I did also look at the use cases document (I think -04) after going > > through the architecture document and I must admit that I did not > find > > it too helpful to understand things better. I did not see anything > > architectural in there either. I guess I will read the teep > > architecture next and perhaps that helps me to get a better clue. > > > > For people like me who are not deep into this technology yet, getti= ng > > used to the rather specific terminology and concepts is a certainly= a > > learning effort and I think the architecture document was on its wa= y > > to get terms well defined and sorted out. Some more examples or > > explanations may help the reader further and I believe this can be > > achieved. > > > > /js > > > > On Wed, Oct 09, 2019 at 01:55:57PM +0200, Henk Birkholz wrote: > > > Hi Kathleen, > > > hi list, > > > > > > it would help everybody, if you could explicitly highlight what > > the exact > > > issues wrt readability in the current architecture I-D are - > > always in > > > comparison with the use-case I-D, if it is doing a better job in > > that part? > > > > > > J=C3=BCrgen provided a good example of what he found confusing a= s a > > first time > > > reader - and that was really helpful and is resulting in ongoing > > work. > > > > > > Please mind, not everything is fleshed out in the architecture > > (e.g. the > > > workflows derived from the use-cases). The plan was to aim for a > > stable > > > nucleus, address the issues raised by the list, go through > > adoption, and > > > finish the document via the issue tracker in a structured proces= s. > > > > > > In summary, without an actual understanding why you (or others!) > > think the > > > document is still hard to read, there is no way of compare > > readability later > > > on also. It would be really good to get more precise feedback on > > that. > > > > > > Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, > > > > > > Henk > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 09.10.19 13:31, Kathleen Moriarty wrote: > > > > Hi Frank, > > > > > > > > Thank you for voicing your concern. I think some may hold off > > until the > > > > updates are provided, but please do voice your opinions. I > > agree that > > > > this work is too important and as such, readability is a > > high priority. > > > > If you read through the TEEP and SUIT architecture drafts, the= y > are > > > > quite easy to follow and understand. That is critical for wid= e > > spread > > > > adoption. We may be able to find a balance, but I think this > > exercise > > > > may speed progress as we have not decided to adopt this draft > > yet as a > > > > working group item. > > > > > > > > As it stands, the use case document is not an architecture > > document, but > > > > it could be shaped as such and I'd really like to see if we ca= n > > do that > > > > in short order to have a comparison prior to an adoption call. > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > Kathleen > > > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 6:53 AM Xialiang (Frank, Network > Standard & > > > > Patent Dept) > > > > > > >> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Kathleen,____ > > > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > > > I am very concerned with this new direction and I strongly > > object.____ > > > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > > > Current architecture draft goes through a lot discussions > and > > > > reaches many consensus. Right now, it really helps IETF > > (Teep for > > > > example), FIDO, TCG and many others. The only issues are o= n > > > > readability, the standards track and the completeness (e.g= ., > > > > passport and background check are still missing). It is an > > very good > > > > document and correct terminology is very important for > remote > > > > attestation.____ > > > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > > > About use cases document, Its goal is just to clarify a > > sample list > > > > of scenarios that remote attestation can apply to and then > > deduce > > > > the requirements and the following concrete protocol > > drafts. It is > > > > not fit to be an architecture.____ > > > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > > > The current architecture is too important for telecom and > > network > > > > equipment vendors and service providers. I have strong > > doubts that > > > > current EAT and OTrPv2 alone is suitable for the > (virtualized) > > > > network infrastructure situation.____ > > > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > > > B.R.____ > > > > > > > > Frank____ > > > > > > > > ____ > > > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > > > This e-mail and its attachments contain confidential > > information > > > > from HUAWEI, which is intended only for the person or > > entity whose > > > > address is listed above. Any use of the information > > contained herein > > > > in any way (including, but not limited to, total or partia= l > > > > disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) by persons > > other than > > > > the intended recipient(s) is prohibited. If you receive > > this e-mail > > > > in error, please notify the sender by phone or email > > immediately and > > > > delete it!____ > > > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > > > *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:*RATS [mailto:rats-bounces@ie= tf.org > > > > > > > >] *=E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 *Kathleen Mori= arty > > > > *=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4:*2019=E5=B9=B410=E6= =9C=888=E6=97=A519:25 > > > > *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:*rats@ietf.org > > > > > > > *=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98:*[Rats] Use case -> architecture docum= ent____ > > > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > > > Hello! > > > > > > > > I read through the latest version of the =E2=80=98use case= =E2=80=99 document > > > > yesterday and found it very easy to read and understand, > > meaning I > > > > think it is written well and could be easily understood by > many > > > > without having to climb up a learning curve. ____ > > > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > > > First, this could be a very useful document to register > > claims for > > > > the use cases. > > > > > > > > Second, if the workflow for the passport and background > > check were > > > > added and put in terms of the open trust protocol v2 from > > TEEP, we > > > > have a fairly nice architecture document that=E2=80=99s ea= sy to > > read and may > > > > gain adoption. The workflows cover the various > > interactions between > > > > roles and TEEP has actively broken up OTrP in v2 to > > > > accommodate using EAT tokens, this would help create that > > link and > > > > make it very clear. > > > > > > > > The other thing I like about the use case document and > think we > > > > should expand on is the references to other work items. > > This makes > > > > it an architecture document that maps out the full plan of > > the WG. > > > > One like that was extremely well received by all the ADs that > don=E2=80=99t > > > > like informational/helpful documents. > > > > > > > > I=E2=80=99m a bit nervous with the terminology being defin= ed and > > would love > > > > to see something like this that=E2=80=99s simplified and m= ore easily > > > > adoptable. ____ > > > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > > > I appreciate the work done to improve the architecture > > document, but > > > > I do think the structure changes to the use case document = as > > > > suggested could result in an easier to understand (and > > therefore > > > > easier to adopt) document.____ > > > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > > > While the architecture document is more readable, I think > > we can do > > > > better. Adoption is important and our timeliness matters = a > > lot for > > > > this work. EATs can be used for may use cases with OTrPv2= , > > so let's > > > > keep it as simple as we can. > > > > > > > > Thoughts are appreciated. > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > Kathleen-- ____ > > > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > > > Best regards,____ > > > > > > > > Kathleen____ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > Kathleen > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > RATS mailing list > > > > RATS@ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > RATS mailing list > > > RATS@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > > > > -- > > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | > Germany > > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Best regards, > > Kathleen > --=20 Best regards, Kathleen --0000000000005fe9ad05947daf6b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Hi Henk,

    On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 12:37 PM Henk Birkholz= <henk.birkholz@sit.f= raunhofer.de> wrote:
    Hi Kathleen,
    hi list,

    while I of course understand your point of "the simpler, the better&qu= ot;, I
    am still a bit of at a loss, what the actual issue is. You are proposing a solution to a problem that I currently have not seen being described yet.=

    Maybe we should do things in order and describe the problem better first and then see how to resolve it inside the existing document?

    I tried to provide extensive comments, but they were = not considered and I was asked by you to look at the new version again.=C2= =A0 I spent over 2 days trying to help, but I think to speed this work up, = we need to do a pivot and focus first on the architectural patterns.
    <= div>=C2=A0

    That is basically the reason for my request to you on actual issues in
    my last comment. I understand the category of the problem "readability= "
    and I assume analogously "comprehensibility", of course, but I th= ink
    that is too vague to actually act on.

    I= tried to help...=C2=A0

    What you are describing with respect to workflow diagrams that is using the roles - Dave did already provided those and walked us through them
    for example at the first interim, and we are doing ASCII art on them
    currently.

    As a reminder, we don't = need ASCII art anymore, version 3 was released for publishing.=C2=A0 If Dav= e contributes his pictures, we can use them.

    In te= rms of how roles are discussed, I think that can be improved further.=C2=A0= Can we just wait and give Dave a chance to write up the text he has said h= e would help with on this rather than trying to all do the same thing?


    In fact, that very first action item wrt what we are working on (well,
    we paralleled some other items, too) back in early September was:

    > * to elaborate on the use of RATS Principals, including more exemplary= diagrams of RATS Role composition and interaction between RATS Principals = based on the use case document (and by that address a unified mapping to TE= EP, RIV, and models that use EAT)

    So what am I hearing now is that Dave is now starting to do the exact
    same thing, with the exception of not using the terms defined in the
    architecture. Is that correct? I am still not sure what issues we are
    trying to address here.

    Not necessarily= .=C2=A0 His work used terms in TEEP and SUIT.=C2=A0 Some of these terms are= defined int he current architecture document.=C2=A0 Once he has this writt= en, then merging again makes sense so that we can then get language consist= ent and using what's been agreed upon to date. I think this will actual= ly speed up the work and adoption.=C2=A0 It will also lower the learning cu= rve.=C2=A0 You've done really good work and I would like the barrier to= entry lowered.=C2=A0 I would really like to see all of this be successful = and don't think this exercise will take much time, but do think it will= be very worthwhile.

    I'd like to see this happ= en in a few steps as described in my last message.

    Best regards,
    Kathleen


    Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,

    Henk

    p.s. with respect to pair programming, I really hope that solutions
    drafts simplify that process the same way the first RATS YANG module
    does it today, already.

    On 09.10.19 18:03, Kathleen Moriarty wrote:
    >
    > I would rather see the architectural patterns come before the specific=
    > terminology.=C2=A0 If you look through the slides from Dave's pres= entation at
    > our previous interim meeting, he laid out several architectural patter= ns
    > using the same language that is used in SUIT and TEEP.=C2=A0 It is des= irable,
    > IMO, to begin with architectural patterns that can be used in necessar= y
    > use cases.=C2=A0 Additional architectural patterns may arise, but we h= ave a
    > nice starting point.
    >
    > See:
    > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-= 2019-rats-02/materials/slides-interim-2019-rats-02-sessa-teep-and-rats-alig= nment
    > It defines the passport, background check, and verifying relying party=
    > architectural patterns for RATS.
    > It also provides an illustration of how the OTrP model for device stat= e
    > can fold into each of those 3 RATS architectural patterns.
    >
    > What Dave is planning to do is to write text describing these
    > architectural patterns.=C2=A0 It will likely be in the language simila= r to
    > what's been used in SUIT and TEEP as his slides match the terminol= ogy.
    >
    > Attestation has countless use cases, and several known architectural <= br> > patterns to date.=C2=A0 The document would first define these patterns= .=C2=A0
    > Then, like SUIT, a high-level description of use cases could be includ= ed
    > with pointers to other future WG drafts that more fully define the use=
    > cases.=C2=A0 Any additional terminology that is necessary could then b= e
    > added, but keeping in mind that we do not want unnecessary terms.=C2= =A0 If we
    > start from the models, it will be easier to maintain the scope and set=
    > of terms.=C2=A0 The terms would come from the current document, but la= nguage
    > may be adjusted as needed.
    >
    > The specific use case details that map claims could be in a later
    > section with the IANA section defining claims for use cases to be adde= d
    > to the CWT and JWT registry.
    >
    > I work for Dell and would like to be able to bring this work forward f= or
    > PoCs.=C2=A0 However, our teams (like many others) use pair programming= .=C2=A0 This
    > means the 2 coders work as a team and in our model, they rotate to a n= ew
    > project every 2 weeks.=C2=A0 This helps with innovation and other bene= fits.=C2=A0
    > If each pairing team has a significant learning curve, a lot of time <= br> > will be wasted and the PoC would not make progress.
    >
    > If the goal for service providers and others is to use this technology=
    > (as is my goal), we need to make it something that is accessible to > many.=C2=A0 The developers at many organizations will use crypto libra= ries,
    > but will not necessarily be security people.=C2=A0 They will be starti= ng from
    > a point where they do not have security specific language nor this ver= y
    > specific set of terms that is being defined.=C2=A0 The simpler we can = keep
    > it, the better to gain wider adoption.
    >
    > I think if we step back and see what Dave does with the document to > define the architectural patterns, then we can decide how we merge > content with readability as a goal.
    >
    > Best regards,
    > Kathleen
    >
    > On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 10:50 AM Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder, J=C3=BCrgen > <J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de
    > <mailto:J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>> wrote:
    >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi,
    >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I did also look at the use cases document (I think = -04) after going
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0through the architecture document and I must admit = that I did not find
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0it too helpful to understand things better. I did n= ot see anything
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0architectural in there either. I guess I will read = the teep
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0architecture next and perhaps that helps me to get = a better clue.
    >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0For people like me who are not deep into this techn= ology yet, getting
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0used to the rather specific terminology and concept= s is a certainly a
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0learning effort and I think the architecture docume= nt was on its way
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to get terms well defined and sorted out. Some more= examples or
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0explanations may help the reader further and I beli= eve this can be
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0achieved.
    >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0/js
    >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Wed, Oct 09, 2019 at 01:55:57PM +0200, Henk Birk= holz wrote:
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Hi Kathleen,
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > hi list,
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > it would help everybody, if you could explici= tly highlight what
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the exact
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > issues wrt readability in the current archite= cture I-D are -
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0always in
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > comparison with the use-case I-D, if it is do= ing a better job in
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that part?
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > J=C3=BCrgen provided a good example of what h= e found confusing as a
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0first time
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > reader - and that was really helpful and is r= esulting in ongoing
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0work.
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Please mind, not everything is fleshed out in= the architecture
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(e.g. the
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > workflows derived from the use-cases). The pl= an was to aim for a
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0stable
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > nucleus, address the issues raised by the lis= t, go through
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0adoption, and
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > finish the document via the issue tracker in = a structured process.
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > In summary, without an actual understanding w= hy you (or others!)
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0think the
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > document is still hard to read, there is no w= ay of compare
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0readability later
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > on also. It would be really good to get more = precise feedback on
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that.
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Henk
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > On 09.10.19 13:31, Kathleen Moriarty wrote: >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Hi Frank,
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Thank you for voicing your concern.=C2= =A0 I think some may hold off
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0until the
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > updates are provided, but please do voic= e your opinions.=C2=A0 I
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0agree that
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > this work is too important and as such, = readability is a
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0high=C2=A0priority.
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > If you read through the TEEP and SUIT ar= chitecture drafts, they are
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > quite easy to follow and understand.=C2= =A0 That is critical for wide
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0spread
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > adoption.=C2=A0 We may be able to find a= balance, but I think this
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0exercise
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > may speed progress as we have not decide= d to adopt this draft
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0yet as a
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > working group item.
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > As it stands, the use case document is n= ot an architecture
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0document, but
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > it could be shaped as such and I'd r= eally like to see if we can
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0do that
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > in short order to have a comparison prio= r to an adoption call.
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Best regards,
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Kathleen
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 6:53 AM Xialiang = (Frank, Network Standard &
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Patent Dept) <frank.xialiang@huawei.com
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:frank.xialiang@huawei.com>
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > <mailto:frank.xialiang@huawei.com
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:frank.xialiang@huawei.com>>> wrote:
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi Kathleen,____
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I am very concerned w= ith this new direction and I strongly
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0object.____
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Current architecture = draft goes through a lot discussions and
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0reaches many consensu= s. Right now, it really helps IETF
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(Teep for
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0example), FIDO, TCG a= nd many others. The only issues are on
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0readability, the stan= dards track and the completeness (e.g.,
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0passport and backgrou= nd check are still missing). It is an
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0very good
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0document and correct = terminology is very important for remote
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0attestation.____
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0About use cases docum= ent, Its goal is just to clarify a
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0sample list
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of scenarios that rem= ote attestation can apply to and then
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0deduce
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the requirements and = the following concrete protocol
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0drafts. It is
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0not fit to be an arch= itecture.____
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The current architect= ure is too important for telecom and
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0network
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0equipment vendors and= service providers. I have strong
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0doubts that
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0current EAT and OTrPv= 2 alone is suitable for the (virtualized)
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0network infrastructur= e situation.____
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0B.R.____
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Frank____
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0____
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This e-mail and its a= ttachments contain confidential
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0information
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0from HUAWEI, which is= intended only for the person or
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0entity whose
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    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0contained herein
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0in any way (including= , but not limited to, total or partial
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0disclosure, reproduct= ion, or dissemination) by persons
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0other than
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the intended recipien= t(s) is prohibited. If you receive
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this e-mail
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0in error, please noti= fy the sender by phone or email
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0immediately and
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0delete it!____
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6= =E4=BA=BA:*RATS [mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org<= br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>>] *=E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 *= Kathleen Moriarty
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81= =E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4:*2019=E5=B9=B410=E6=9C=888=E6=97=A519:25
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6= =E4=BA=BA:*rats@ietf.org= <mailto:rats@iet= f.org>
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org>>
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98:*= [Rats] Use case -> architecture document____
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hello!
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I read through the la= test version of the =E2=80=98use case=E2=80=99 document
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0yesterday and found i= t very easy to read and understand,
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0meaning I
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0think it is written w= ell and could be easily understood by many
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0without having to cli= mb up a learning curve. ____
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0First, this could be = a very useful document to register
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0claims for
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the use cases.
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Second, if the workfl= ow for the passport and background
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0check were
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0added and put in term= s of the open trust protocol v2 from
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0TEEP, we
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0have a fairly nice ar= chitecture document that=E2=80=99s easy to
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0read and may
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0gain adoption.=C2=A0 = The workflows cover the various
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0interactions between
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0roles and TEEP has ac= tively broken up OTrP in v2 to
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0accommodate=C2=A0usin= g EAT tokens, this would=C2=A0help create that
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0link and
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0make it very clear. >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The other thing I lik= e about the use case document and think we
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0should expand on is t= he references to other work items.
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This makes
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0it an architecture do= cument that maps out the full plan of
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the WG.
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > One like that was extremely well receive= d by all the ADs that don=E2=80=99t
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0like informational/he= lpful documents.
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I=E2=80=99m a bit ner= vous with the terminology being defined and
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0would love
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to see something like= this that=E2=80=99s simplified and more easily
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0adoptable. ____
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I appreciate the work= done to improve the architecture
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0document, but
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I do think the struct= ure changes to the use case document as
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0suggested could resul= t in an easier to understand (and
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0therefore
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0easier to adopt) docu= ment.____
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0While the architectur= e document is more readable, I think
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0we can do
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0better.=C2=A0 Adoptio= n is important and our timeliness matters a
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0lot for
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this work.=C2=A0 EATs= can be used for may use cases with OTrPv2,
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0so let's
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0keep it as simple as = we can.
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Thoughts are apprecia= ted.
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Best regards,
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Kathleen-- ____
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Best regards,____
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Kathleen____
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > --
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Best regards,
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Kathleen
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > ________________________________________= _______
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > RATS mailing list
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > https://www.ietf.org/ma= ilman/listinfo/rats
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > _____________________________________________= __
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > RATS mailing list
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > https://www.ietf.org/mailman= /listinfo/rats
    >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Juergen Schoenwaelder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.jacobs-university.de/>
    >
    >
    >
    > --
    >
    > Best regards,
    > Kathleen


    --

    Best regards,
    Kathleen
    --0000000000005fe9ad05947daf6b-- From nobody Wed Oct 9 13:10:25 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F2DA1200E6 for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2019 13:10:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZFjMM1WYoAOc for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2019 13:10:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-x333.google.com (mail-ot1-x333.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::333]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7EAEA12004F for ; Wed, 9 Oct 2019 13:10:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-x333.google.com with SMTP id m19so2871939otp.1 for ; Wed, 09 Oct 2019 13:10:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=WfjqtvHZhAMxSuL/AxrR8zpBKRYR+AAoHPagFrEIwBI=; b=m64UZdA48UoGr6DgQZAMUHmXBoMRVwRJFAiBP/wO2vwFCiVrwhSwBtcgoB8oj+7MjU SmDikxXfrzWKawPGeb0HIYu2okqy+e7NA/LmpwsubN8p8WW8YLXozKf376551NiPaUiV rLv3Yxx8Y0P6TzS5/2GK1478pIQaG2O4GOLgL4liDzvj4fj+98/yQtyH6ECR1Z9vNtzd 5g9GmvBmp3fpuwYg69GxvffLOBaKBBCJltImW6IFo83ismEPYMY23tOIxk0fG1qt72Su da7YgOheYEW/y+dUkHUPblyijqXwJPuOqJlUFoInFDnumpj6FWAHvBAVSvN1XHDhvrHW ML8g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=WfjqtvHZhAMxSuL/AxrR8zpBKRYR+AAoHPagFrEIwBI=; b=dOwMT0QQv+jMNKdXiWsSPpbQVt1m7+5+80DRqA59YM4pZLZLzECf3v2nwcXJHAyC5C eYnW/Pa0eH5Qp+Lxv6Dj5NH0+P7hEg87icHFSqM+VKPTbHQ/5ob78Y7OOXpiZlnRpWpt B/OTB4tnzYPQ+h/E3UtHYA1HuVrBg9V1Q/Vy9Kvg/ucVdX98Du10bDlZidxqxu6hzEAl tF5/DaugfBaFoH1Mec7+V4mp0SNX4ZhXYM9Rj7C9HM2Tln8RcUXNLsSCcDUz64mY+XBt 7qn2mWSLD7g5YVlEMlor/nBnuobEB2Fwddw2dpA1wnK7c78pOM2LbLCL7rhBELv+DMwW PCmQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXFCtUhuXW4TGLWuZFoLOmLaiLYMSXl2RJ1NIl6jRdmRxSF7UlD 81mM4i75c/VEjXDCnr+XTf/7+AoiGkkRHhHHrzxDWvyp X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzXpKQquiXcM8saINE/t5esMTcn2D0w5FQSIqQPyjnYm6JBo8tuikySbj7Rw5/f63zukk+9plB9J3rO+HDXq6s= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:1685:: with SMTP id k5mr4596350otr.250.1570651818204; Wed, 09 Oct 2019 13:10:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20191009145006.r2pjsoo6jxirah64@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <9379d880-2b7e-6657-c547-b37bb7a9e466@sit.fraunhofer.de> In-Reply-To: From: Kathleen Moriarty Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 16:09:42 -0400 Message-ID: To: Henk Birkholz , "rats@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b0a49d05947fdfc7" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Use case -> architecture document X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2019 20:10:23 -0000 --000000000000b0a49d05947fdfc7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, Henk expressed concern with my use of the word 'merge'. By exploring this new structure, I am not suggesting that we drop content. It's a restructure proposal and hopefully a way to make the document more accessible. I am not suggesting essential components be dropped, but would like them described more clearly. This may help reset the readability of the document. Obviously, the WG is who decides what gets adopted as a WG item. I'd also like to make sure the end result is something that is easily adoptable by industry that are already moving forward with proprietary solutions. We should put our best foot forward to try to influence and gain adoption. Michael offered to look at the structures of the TEEP and SUIT architecture documents and to see what might make sense here and will post to the list. Best regards, Kathleen On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 1:33 PM Kathleen Moriarty < kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Henk, > > On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 12:37 PM Henk Birkholz < > henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote: > >> Hi Kathleen, >> hi list, >> >> while I of course understand your point of "the simpler, the better", I >> am still a bit of at a loss, what the actual issue is. You are proposing >> a solution to a problem that I currently have not seen being described >> yet. >> >> Maybe we should do things in order and describe the problem better first >> and then see how to resolve it inside the existing document? >> > > I tried to provide extensive comments, but they were not considered and I > was asked by you to look at the new version again. I spent over 2 days > trying to help, but I think to speed this work up, we need to do a pivot > and focus first on the architectural patterns. > > >> >> That is basically the reason for my request to you on actual issues in >> my last comment. I understand the category of the problem "readability" >> and I assume analogously "comprehensibility", of course, but I think >> that is too vague to actually act on. >> > > I tried to help... > >> >> What you are describing with respect to workflow diagrams that is using >> the roles - Dave did already provided those and walked us through them >> for example at the first interim, and we are doing ASCII art on them >> currently. >> > > As a reminder, we don't need ASCII art anymore, version 3 was released fo= r > publishing. If Dave contributes his pictures, we can use them. > > In terms of how roles are discussed, I think that can be improved > further. Can we just wait and give Dave a chance to write up the text he > has said he would help with on this rather than trying to all do the same > thing? > > >> In fact, that very first action item wrt what we are working on (well, >> we paralleled some other items, too) back in early September was: >> >> > * to elaborate on the use of RATS Principals, including more exemplary >> diagrams of RATS Role composition and interaction between RATS Principal= s >> based on the use case document (and by that address a unified mapping to >> TEEP, RIV, and models that use EAT) >> >> So what am I hearing now is that Dave is now starting to do the exact >> same thing, with the exception of not using the terms defined in the >> architecture. Is that correct? I am still not sure what issues we are >> trying to address here. >> > > Not necessarily. His work used terms in TEEP and SUIT. Some of these > terms are defined int he current architecture document. Once he has this > written, then merging again makes sense so that we can then get language > consistent and using what's been agreed upon to date. I think this will > actually speed up the work and adoption. It will also lower the learning > curve. You've done really good work and I would like the barrier to entr= y > lowered. I would really like to see all of this be successful and don't > think this exercise will take much time, but do think it will be very > worthwhile. > > I'd like to see this happen in a few steps as described in my last messag= e. > > Best regards, > Kathleen > > >> Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, >> >> Henk >> >> p.s. with respect to pair programming, I really hope that solutions >> drafts simplify that process the same way the first RATS YANG module >> does it today, already. >> >> On 09.10.19 18:03, Kathleen Moriarty wrote: >> > >> > I would rather see the architectural patterns come before the specific >> > terminology. If you look through the slides from Dave's presentation >> at >> > our previous interim meeting, he laid out several architectural >> patterns >> > using the same language that is used in SUIT and TEEP. It is >> desirable, >> > IMO, to begin with architectural patterns that can be used in necessar= y >> > use cases. Additional architectural patterns may arise, but we have a >> > nice starting point. >> > >> > See: >> > >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2019-rats-02/materials/slid= es-interim-2019-rats-02-sessa-teep-and-rats-alignment >> > It defines the passport, background check, and verifying relying party >> > architectural patterns for RATS. >> > It also provides an illustration of how the OTrP model for device stat= e >> > can fold into each of those 3 RATS architectural patterns. >> > >> > What Dave is planning to do is to write text describing these >> > architectural patterns. It will likely be in the language similar to >> > what's been used in SUIT and TEEP as his slides match the terminology. >> > >> > Attestation has countless use cases, and several known architectural >> > patterns to date. The document would first define these patterns. >> > Then, like SUIT, a high-level description of use cases could be >> included >> > with pointers to other future WG drafts that more fully define the use >> > cases. Any additional terminology that is necessary could then be >> > added, but keeping in mind that we do not want unnecessary terms. If >> we >> > start from the models, it will be easier to maintain the scope and set >> > of terms. The terms would come from the current document, but languag= e >> > may be adjusted as needed. >> > >> > The specific use case details that map claims could be in a later >> > section with the IANA section defining claims for use cases to be adde= d >> > to the CWT and JWT registry. >> > >> > I work for Dell and would like to be able to bring this work forward >> for >> > PoCs. However, our teams (like many others) use pair programming. >> This >> > means the 2 coders work as a team and in our model, they rotate to a >> new >> > project every 2 weeks. This helps with innovation and other benefits. >> > If each pairing team has a significant learning curve, a lot of time >> > will be wasted and the PoC would not make progress. >> > >> > If the goal for service providers and others is to use this technology >> > (as is my goal), we need to make it something that is accessible to >> > many. The developers at many organizations will use crypto libraries, >> > but will not necessarily be security people. They will be starting >> from >> > a point where they do not have security specific language nor this ver= y >> > specific set of terms that is being defined. The simpler we can keep >> > it, the better to gain wider adoption. >> > >> > I think if we step back and see what Dave does with the document to >> > define the architectural patterns, then we can decide how we merge >> > content with readability as a goal. >> > >> > Best regards, >> > Kathleen >> > >> > On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 10:50 AM Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder, J=C3=BCrgen >> > > > > wrote: >> > >> > Hi, >> > >> > I did also look at the use cases document (I think -04) after goin= g >> > through the architecture document and I must admit that I did not >> find >> > it too helpful to understand things better. I did not see anything >> > architectural in there either. I guess I will read the teep >> > architecture next and perhaps that helps me to get a better clue. >> > >> > For people like me who are not deep into this technology yet, >> getting >> > used to the rather specific terminology and concepts is a certainl= y >> a >> > learning effort and I think the architecture document was on its w= ay >> > to get terms well defined and sorted out. Some more examples or >> > explanations may help the reader further and I believe this can be >> > achieved. >> > >> > /js >> > >> > On Wed, Oct 09, 2019 at 01:55:57PM +0200, Henk Birkholz wrote: >> > > Hi Kathleen, >> > > hi list, >> > > >> > > it would help everybody, if you could explicitly highlight what >> > the exact >> > > issues wrt readability in the current architecture I-D are - >> > always in >> > > comparison with the use-case I-D, if it is doing a better job i= n >> > that part? >> > > >> > > J=C3=BCrgen provided a good example of what he found confusing = as a >> > first time >> > > reader - and that was really helpful and is resulting in ongoin= g >> > work. >> > > >> > > Please mind, not everything is fleshed out in the architecture >> > (e.g. the >> > > workflows derived from the use-cases). The plan was to aim for = a >> > stable >> > > nucleus, address the issues raised by the list, go through >> > adoption, and >> > > finish the document via the issue tracker in a structured >> process. >> > > >> > > In summary, without an actual understanding why you (or others!= ) >> > think the >> > > document is still hard to read, there is no way of compare >> > readability later >> > > on also. It would be really good to get more precise feedback o= n >> > that. >> > > >> > > Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, >> > > >> > > Henk >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > On 09.10.19 13:31, Kathleen Moriarty wrote: >> > > > Hi Frank, >> > > > >> > > > Thank you for voicing your concern. I think some may hold of= f >> > until the >> > > > updates are provided, but please do voice your opinions. I >> > agree that >> > > > this work is too important and as such, readability is a >> > high priority. >> > > > If you read through the TEEP and SUIT architecture drafts, >> they are >> > > > quite easy to follow and understand. That is critical for wi= de >> > spread >> > > > adoption. We may be able to find a balance, but I think this >> > exercise >> > > > may speed progress as we have not decided to adopt this draft >> > yet as a >> > > > working group item. >> > > > >> > > > As it stands, the use case document is not an architecture >> > document, but >> > > > it could be shaped as such and I'd really like to see if we c= an >> > do that >> > > > in short order to have a comparison prior to an adoption call= . >> > > > >> > > > Best regards, >> > > > Kathleen >> > > > >> > > > On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 6:53 AM Xialiang (Frank, Network >> Standard & >> > > > Patent Dept) > > >> > > > > > >> wrote: >> > > > >> > > > Hi Kathleen,____ >> > > > >> > > > __ __ >> > > > >> > > > I am very concerned with this new direction and I strongl= y >> > object.____ >> > > > >> > > > __ __ >> > > > >> > > > Current architecture draft goes through a lot discussions >> and >> > > > reaches many consensus. Right now, it really helps IETF >> > (Teep for >> > > > example), FIDO, TCG and many others. The only issues are = on >> > > > readability, the standards track and the completeness >> (e.g., >> > > > passport and background check are still missing). It is a= n >> > very good >> > > > document and correct terminology is very important for >> remote >> > > > attestation.____ >> > > > >> > > > __ __ >> > > > >> > > > About use cases document, Its goal is just to clarify a >> > sample list >> > > > of scenarios that remote attestation can apply to and the= n >> > deduce >> > > > the requirements and the following concrete protocol >> > drafts. It is >> > > > not fit to be an architecture.____ >> > > > >> > > > __ __ >> > > > >> > > > The current architecture is too important for telecom and >> > network >> > > > equipment vendors and service providers. I have strong >> > doubts that >> > > > current EAT and OTrPv2 alone is suitable for the >> (virtualized) >> > > > network infrastructure situation.____ >> > > > >> > > > __ __ >> > > > >> > > > B.R.____ >> > > > >> > > > Frank____ >> > > > >> > > > ____ >> > > > >> > > > __ __ >> > > > >> > > > This e-mail and its attachments contain confidential >> > information >> > > > from HUAWEI, which is intended only for the person or >> > entity whose >> > > > address is listed above. Any use of the information >> > contained herein >> > > > in any way (including, but not limited to, total or parti= al >> > > > disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) by persons >> > other than >> > > > the intended recipient(s) is prohibited. If you receive >> > this e-mail >> > > > in error, please notify the sender by phone or email >> > immediately and >> > > > delete it!____ >> > > > >> > > > __ __ >> > > > >> > > > *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:*RATS [mailto:rats-bounces@i= etf.org >> > >> > > > > > >] *=E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 *Kathleen Mor= iarty >> > > > *=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4:*2019=E5=B9=B410=E6= =9C=888=E6=97=A519:25 >> > > > *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:*rats@ietf.org >> > > >> > > > *=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98:*[Rats] Use case -> architecture docu= ment____ >> > > > >> > > > __ __ >> > > > >> > > > Hello! >> > > > >> > > > I read through the latest version of the =E2=80=98use cas= e=E2=80=99 >> document >> > > > yesterday and found it very easy to read and understand, >> > meaning I >> > > > think it is written well and could be easily understood b= y >> many >> > > > without having to climb up a learning curve. ____ >> > > > >> > > > __ __ >> > > > >> > > > First, this could be a very useful document to register >> > claims for >> > > > the use cases. >> > > > >> > > > Second, if the workflow for the passport and background >> > check were >> > > > added and put in terms of the open trust protocol v2 from >> > TEEP, we >> > > > have a fairly nice architecture document that=E2=80=99s e= asy to >> > read and may >> > > > gain adoption. The workflows cover the various >> > interactions between >> > > > roles and TEEP has actively broken up OTrP in v2 to >> > > > accommodate using EAT tokens, this would help create that >> > link and >> > > > make it very clear. >> > > > >> > > > The other thing I like about the use case document and >> think we >> > > > should expand on is the references to other work items. >> > This makes >> > > > it an architecture document that maps out the full plan o= f >> > the WG. >> > > > One like that was extremely well received by all the ADs that >> don=E2=80=99t >> > > > like informational/helpful documents. >> > > > >> > > > I=E2=80=99m a bit nervous with the terminology being defi= ned and >> > would love >> > > > to see something like this that=E2=80=99s simplified and = more >> easily >> > > > adoptable. ____ >> > > > >> > > > __ __ >> > > > >> > > > I appreciate the work done to improve the architecture >> > document, but >> > > > I do think the structure changes to the use case document >> as >> > > > suggested could result in an easier to understand (and >> > therefore >> > > > easier to adopt) document.____ >> > > > >> > > > __ __ >> > > > >> > > > While the architecture document is more readable, I think >> > we can do >> > > > better. Adoption is important and our timeliness matters= a >> > lot for >> > > > this work. EATs can be used for may use cases with OTrPv= 2, >> > so let's >> > > > keep it as simple as we can. >> > > > >> > > > Thoughts are appreciated. >> > > > >> > > > Best regards, >> > > > Kathleen-- ____ >> > > > >> > > > __ __ >> > > > >> > > > Best regards,____ >> > > > >> > > > Kathleen____ >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > -- >> > > > >> > > > Best regards, >> > > > Kathleen >> > > > >> > > > _______________________________________________ >> > > > RATS mailing list >> > > > RATS@ietf.org >> > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats >> > > > >> > > >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > RATS mailing list >> > > RATS@ietf.org >> > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats >> > >> > -- >> > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH >> > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | >> Germany >> > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > >> > Best regards, >> > Kathleen >> > > > -- > > Best regards, > Kathleen > --=20 Best regards, Kathleen --000000000000b0a49d05947fdfc7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Hello,

    Henk expressed concer= n with my use of the word 'merge'.=C2=A0 By exploring this new stru= cture, I am not suggesting that we drop content.=C2=A0 It's a restructu= re proposal and hopefully a way to make the document more accessible.=C2=A0= I am not suggesting essential=C2=A0components be dropped, but would like t= hem described more clearly.=C2=A0 This may help reset the readability of th= e document.=C2=A0 Obviously, the WG is who decides what gets adopted as a W= G item.=C2=A0 I'd also like to make sure the end result is something th= at is easily adoptable by industry that are already moving forward with pro= prietary solutions.=C2=A0 We should put our best foot forward to try to inf= luence=C2=A0and gain adoption.

    Michael offered to = look at the structures of the TEEP and SUIT architecture documents and to s= ee what might make sense here and will post to the list.=C2=A0=C2=A0
    <= div>
    Best regards,
    Kathleen

    On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 1= :33 PM Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
    Hi Henk,
    <= br>
    On Wed,= Oct 9, 2019 at 12:37 PM Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>= ; wrote:
    Hi Kath= leen,
    hi list,

    while I of course understand your point of "the simpler, the better&qu= ot;, I
    am still a bit of at a loss, what the actual issue is. You are proposing a solution to a problem that I currently have not seen being described yet.=

    Maybe we should do things in order and describe the problem better first and then see how to resolve it inside the existing document?

    I tried to provide extensive comments, but they were = not considered and I was asked by you to look at the new version again.=C2= =A0 I spent over 2 days trying to help, but I think to speed this work up, = we need to do a pivot and focus first on the architectural patterns.
    <= div>=C2=A0

    That is basically the reason for my request to you on actual issues in
    my last comment. I understand the category of the problem "readability= "
    and I assume analogously "comprehensibility", of course, but I th= ink
    that is too vague to actually act on.

    I= tried to help...=C2=A0

    What you are describing with respect to workflow diagrams that is using the roles - Dave did already provided those and walked us through them
    for example at the first interim, and we are doing ASCII art on them
    currently.

    As a reminder, we don't = need ASCII art anymore, version 3 was released for publishing.=C2=A0 If Dav= e contributes his pictures, we can use them.

    In te= rms of how roles are discussed, I think that can be improved further.=C2=A0= Can we just wait and give Dave a chance to write up the text he has said h= e would help with on this rather than trying to all do the same thing?


    In fact, that very first action item wrt what we are working on (well,
    we paralleled some other items, too) back in early September was:

    > * to elaborate on the use of RATS Principals, including more exemplary= diagrams of RATS Role composition and interaction between RATS Principals = based on the use case document (and by that address a unified mapping to TE= EP, RIV, and models that use EAT)

    So what am I hearing now is that Dave is now starting to do the exact
    same thing, with the exception of not using the terms defined in the
    architecture. Is that correct? I am still not sure what issues we are
    trying to address here.

    Not necessarily= .=C2=A0 His work used terms in TEEP and SUIT.=C2=A0 Some of these terms are= defined int he current architecture document.=C2=A0 Once he has this writt= en, then merging again makes sense so that we can then get language consist= ent and using what's been agreed upon to date. I think this will actual= ly speed up the work and adoption.=C2=A0 It will also lower the learning cu= rve.=C2=A0 You've done really good work and I would like the barrier to= entry lowered.=C2=A0 I would really like to see all of this be successful = and don't think this exercise will take much time, but do think it will= be very worthwhile.

    I'd like to see this happ= en in a few steps as described in my last message.

    Best regards,
    Kathleen


    Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,

    Henk

    p.s. with respect to pair programming, I really hope that solutions
    drafts simplify that process the same way the first RATS YANG module
    does it today, already.

    On 09.10.19 18:03, Kathleen Moriarty wrote:
    >
    > I would rather see the architectural patterns come before the specific=
    > terminology.=C2=A0 If you look through the slides from Dave's pres= entation at
    > our previous interim meeting, he laid out several architectural patter= ns
    > using the same language that is used in SUIT and TEEP.=C2=A0 It is des= irable,
    > IMO, to begin with architectural patterns that can be used in necessar= y
    > use cases.=C2=A0 Additional architectural patterns may arise, but we h= ave a
    > nice starting point.
    >
    > See:
    > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-= 2019-rats-02/materials/slides-interim-2019-rats-02-sessa-teep-and-rats-alig= nment
    > It defines the passport, background check, and verifying relying party=
    > architectural patterns for RATS.
    > It also provides an illustration of how the OTrP model for device stat= e
    > can fold into each of those 3 RATS architectural patterns.
    >
    > What Dave is planning to do is to write text describing these
    > architectural patterns.=C2=A0 It will likely be in the language simila= r to
    > what's been used in SUIT and TEEP as his slides match the terminol= ogy.
    >
    > Attestation has countless use cases, and several known architectural <= br> > patterns to date.=C2=A0 The document would first define these patterns= .=C2=A0
    > Then, like SUIT, a high-level description of use cases could be includ= ed
    > with pointers to other future WG drafts that more fully define the use=
    > cases.=C2=A0 Any additional terminology that is necessary could then b= e
    > added, but keeping in mind that we do not want unnecessary terms.=C2= =A0 If we
    > start from the models, it will be easier to maintain the scope and set=
    > of terms.=C2=A0 The terms would come from the current document, but la= nguage
    > may be adjusted as needed.
    >
    > The specific use case details that map claims could be in a later
    > section with the IANA section defining claims for use cases to be adde= d
    > to the CWT and JWT registry.
    >
    > I work for Dell and would like to be able to bring this work forward f= or
    > PoCs.=C2=A0 However, our teams (like many others) use pair programming= .=C2=A0 This
    > means the 2 coders work as a team and in our model, they rotate to a n= ew
    > project every 2 weeks.=C2=A0 This helps with innovation and other bene= fits.=C2=A0
    > If each pairing team has a significant learning curve, a lot of time <= br> > will be wasted and the PoC would not make progress.
    >
    > If the goal for service providers and others is to use this technology=
    > (as is my goal), we need to make it something that is accessible to > many.=C2=A0 The developers at many organizations will use crypto libra= ries,
    > but will not necessarily be security people.=C2=A0 They will be starti= ng from
    > a point where they do not have security specific language nor this ver= y
    > specific set of terms that is being defined.=C2=A0 The simpler we can = keep
    > it, the better to gain wider adoption.
    >
    > I think if we step back and see what Dave does with the document to > define the architectural patterns, then we can decide how we merge > content with readability as a goal.
    >
    > Best regards,
    > Kathleen
    >
    > On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 10:50 AM Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder, J=C3=BCrgen > <J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de
    > <mailto:J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>> wrote:
    >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi,
    >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I did also look at the use cases document (I think = -04) after going
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0through the architecture document and I must admit = that I did not find
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0it too helpful to understand things better. I did n= ot see anything
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0architectural in there either. I guess I will read = the teep
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0architecture next and perhaps that helps me to get = a better clue.
    >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0For people like me who are not deep into this techn= ology yet, getting
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0used to the rather specific terminology and concept= s is a certainly a
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0learning effort and I think the architecture docume= nt was on its way
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to get terms well defined and sorted out. Some more= examples or
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0explanations may help the reader further and I beli= eve this can be
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0achieved.
    >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0/js
    >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Wed, Oct 09, 2019 at 01:55:57PM +0200, Henk Birk= holz wrote:
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Hi Kathleen,
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > hi list,
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > it would help everybody, if you could explici= tly highlight what
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the exact
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > issues wrt readability in the current archite= cture I-D are -
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0always in
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > comparison with the use-case I-D, if it is do= ing a better job in
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that part?
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > J=C3=BCrgen provided a good example of what h= e found confusing as a
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0first time
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > reader - and that was really helpful and is r= esulting in ongoing
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0work.
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Please mind, not everything is fleshed out in= the architecture
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(e.g. the
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > workflows derived from the use-cases). The pl= an was to aim for a
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0stable
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > nucleus, address the issues raised by the lis= t, go through
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0adoption, and
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > finish the document via the issue tracker in = a structured process.
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > In summary, without an actual understanding w= hy you (or others!)
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0think the
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > document is still hard to read, there is no w= ay of compare
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0readability later
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > on also. It would be really good to get more = precise feedback on
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0that.
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Henk
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > On 09.10.19 13:31, Kathleen Moriarty wrote: >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Hi Frank,
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Thank you for voicing your concern.=C2= =A0 I think some may hold off
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0until the
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > updates are provided, but please do voic= e your opinions.=C2=A0 I
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0agree that
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > this work is too important and as such, = readability is a
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0high=C2=A0priority.
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > If you read through the TEEP and SUIT ar= chitecture drafts, they are
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > quite easy to follow and understand.=C2= =A0 That is critical for wide
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0spread
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > adoption.=C2=A0 We may be able to find a= balance, but I think this
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0exercise
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > may speed progress as we have not decide= d to adopt this draft
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0yet as a
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > working group item.
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > As it stands, the use case document is n= ot an architecture
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0document, but
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > it could be shaped as such and I'd r= eally like to see if we can
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0do that
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > in short order to have a comparison prio= r to an adoption call.
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Best regards,
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Kathleen
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 6:53 AM Xialiang = (Frank, Network Standard &
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Patent Dept) <frank.xialiang@huawei.com
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:frank.xialiang@huawei.com>
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > <mailto:frank.xialiang@huawei.com
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:frank.xialiang@huawei.com>>> wrote:
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi Kathleen,____
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I am very concerned w= ith this new direction and I strongly
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0object.____
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Current architecture = draft goes through a lot discussions and
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0reaches many consensu= s. Right now, it really helps IETF
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(Teep for
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0example), FIDO, TCG a= nd many others. The only issues are on
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0readability, the stan= dards track and the completeness (e.g.,
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0passport and backgrou= nd check are still missing). It is an
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0very good
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0document and correct = terminology is very important for remote
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0attestation.____
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0About use cases docum= ent, Its goal is just to clarify a
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0sample list
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of scenarios that rem= ote attestation can apply to and then
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0deduce
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the requirements and = the following concrete protocol
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0drafts. It is
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0not fit to be an arch= itecture.____
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The current architect= ure is too important for telecom and
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0network
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0equipment vendors and= service providers. I have strong
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0doubts that
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0current EAT and OTrPv= 2 alone is suitable for the (virtualized)
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0network infrastructur= e situation.____
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0B.R.____
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Frank____
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0____
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This e-mail and its a= ttachments contain confidential
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0information
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0from HUAWEI, which is= intended only for the person or
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0entity whose
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0address is listed abo= ve. Any use of the information
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0contained herein
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0in any way (including= , but not limited to, total or partial
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0disclosure, reproduct= ion, or dissemination) by persons
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0other than
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the intended recipien= t(s) is prohibited. If you receive
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this e-mail
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0in error, please noti= fy the sender by phone or email
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0immediately and
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0delete it!____
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6= =E4=BA=BA:*RATS [mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org<= br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>>] *=E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 *= Kathleen Moriarty
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81= =E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4:*2019=E5=B9=B410=E6=9C=888=E6=97=A519:25
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6= =E4=BA=BA:*rats@ietf.org= <mailto:rats@iet= f.org>
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org>>
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98:*= [Rats] Use case -> architecture document____
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hello!
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I read through the la= test version of the =E2=80=98use case=E2=80=99 document
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0yesterday and found i= t very easy to read and understand,
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0meaning I
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0think it is written w= ell and could be easily understood by many
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0without having to cli= mb up a learning curve. ____
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0First, this could be = a very useful document to register
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0claims for
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the use cases.
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Second, if the workfl= ow for the passport and background
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0check were
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0added and put in term= s of the open trust protocol v2 from
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0TEEP, we
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0have a fairly nice ar= chitecture document that=E2=80=99s easy to
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0read and may
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0gain adoption.=C2=A0 = The workflows cover the various
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0interactions between
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0roles and TEEP has ac= tively broken up OTrP in v2 to
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0accommodate=C2=A0usin= g EAT tokens, this would=C2=A0help create that
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0link and
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0make it very clear. >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The other thing I lik= e about the use case document and think we
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0should expand on is t= he references to other work items.
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This makes
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0it an architecture do= cument that maps out the full plan of
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the WG.
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > One like that was extremely well receive= d by all the ADs that don=E2=80=99t
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0like informational/he= lpful documents.
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I=E2=80=99m a bit ner= vous with the terminology being defined and
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0would love
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to see something like= this that=E2=80=99s simplified and more easily
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0adoptable. ____
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I appreciate the work= done to improve the architecture
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0document, but
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I do think the struct= ure changes to the use case document as
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0suggested could resul= t in an easier to understand (and
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0therefore
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0easier to adopt) docu= ment.____
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0While the architectur= e document is more readable, I think
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0we can do
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0better.=C2=A0 Adoptio= n is important and our timeliness matters a
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0lot for
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this work.=C2=A0 EATs= can be used for may use cases with OTrPv2,
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0so let's
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0keep it as simple as = we can.
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Thoughts are apprecia= ted.
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Best regards,
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Kathleen-- ____
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Best regards,____
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Kathleen____
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > --
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Best regards,
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > Kathleen
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > ________________________________________= _______
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > RATS mailing list
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > > https://www.ietf.org/ma= ilman/listinfo/rats
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > _____________________________________________= __
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > RATS mailing list
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > https://www.ietf.org/mailman= /listinfo/rats
    >
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Juergen Schoenwaelder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
    >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.jacobs-university.de/>
    >
    >
    >
    > --
    >
    > Best regards,
    > Kathleen


    --

    Best regards,
    Kathleen


    --

    Best regards,
    Kathleen
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(localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CBC6120046 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2019 00:34:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bpnsCLO7OvOc for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2019 00:34:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.72.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 84A21120033 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2019 00:34:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (mail.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.84.171]) by mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-10) with ESMTPS id x9A7YmLw008922 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 10 Oct 2019 09:34:49 +0200 Received: from [192.168.16.50] (79.234.112.245) by mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (141.12.84.171) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.468.0; Thu, 10 Oct 2019 09:34:43 +0200 To: Guy Fedorkow , Kathleen Moriarty , "rats@ietf.org" References: <20191009145006.r2pjsoo6jxirah64@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <9379d880-2b7e-6657-c547-b37bb7a9e466@sit.fraunhofer.de> From: Henk Birkholz Message-ID: <12aea702-91f1-a038-6fcc-c2ff5b1cd964@sit.fraunhofer.de> Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 09:34:42 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [79.234.112.245] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Use case -> architecture document X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 07:34:57 -0000 Hello Guy. hi list, if adding the exemplary workflows before the definition of the principals and interactions between them is increasing the readability of the architecture, then yes. I think the notion was to add them up front. I am well aware of how the SUIT architecture looks like and it is fueled by the information model, because the use cases live in there and requirements are inferred from them. The goal in SUIT is not to create a shopping list of elements for the corresponding manifest, but to provide a valid reason why the information elements should be defined and then go into the manifest data model. In SUIT, use cases in the Information Model use English language and a pattern to deduct the Requirements and actual Information Elements from - but that all happens in the Information Model (because the manifest and complementary draft around it are the target there). In the TEEP architecture, first the terminology is defined and then four very concise use-cases are defined, which directly leads to the system model. That is possible, because the application of OTrPv1 is well-understood and small in scope, I assume. But I am not as familiar to the background of TEEP as I am familiar with the background of SUIT. So we have one case where a big number of use-cases go into the Information Model and one case where a small number of use-cases go into the architecture. Both designs are based on the background of the solution space of the working groups. Only the WG can decide, if it makes sense to put a big number of use cases at the top of the architecture, then derive workflow compositions from them, and then derive the terminology from that after that. That has not been done yet, as far I can see (and I only know SUIT and TEEP as the related working groups, SACM uses a different approach and has a separate use-case document). Viele Grüße, Henk On 10.10.19 01:41, Guy Fedorkow wrote: > Hi Henk, > >     Do you think that the ‘readability’ concerns would be addressed if > the architecture doc were to adopt a summary of some sort of the > use-cases as part of its introductory material?  That would give a > definition of the problem to be solved written in common language, so > ordinary people could read it, followed by the more-carefully-defined > terms, roles and procedures? > >     /guy > > *From:* RATS *On Behalf Of * Kathleen Moriarty > *Sent:* Wednesday, October 9, 2019 4:10 PM > *To:* Henk Birkholz ; rats@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [Rats] Use case -> architecture document > > Hello, > > Henk expressed concern with my use of the word 'merge'.  By exploring > this new structure, I am not suggesting that we drop content.  It's a > restructure proposal and hopefully a way to make the document more > accessible.  I am not suggesting essential components be dropped, but > would like them described more clearly.  This may help reset the > readability of the document.  Obviously, the WG is who decides what gets > adopted as a WG item.  I'd also like to make sure the end result is > something that is easily adoptable by industry that are already moving > forward with proprietary solutions.  We should put our best foot forward > to try to influence and gain adoption. > > Michael offered to look at the structures of the TEEP and SUIT > architecture documents and to see what might make sense here and will > post to the list. > > Best regards, > > Kathleen > > On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 1:33 PM Kathleen Moriarty > > wrote: > > Hi Henk, > > On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 12:37 PM Henk Birkholz > > wrote: > > Hi Kathleen, > hi list, > > while I of course understand your point of "the simpler, the > better", I > am still a bit of at a loss, what the actual issue is. You are > proposing > a solution to a problem that I currently have not seen being > described yet. > > Maybe we should do things in order and describe the problem > better first > and then see how to resolve it inside the existing document? > > I tried to provide extensive comments, but they were not considered > and I was asked by you to look at the new version again.  I spent > over 2 days trying to help, but I think to speed this work up, we > need to do a pivot and focus first on the architectural patterns. > > > That is basically the reason for my request to you on actual > issues in > my last comment. I understand the category of the problem > "readability" > and I assume analogously "comprehensibility", of course, but I > think > that is too vague to actually act on. > > I tried to help... > > > What you are describing with respect to workflow diagrams that > is using > the roles - Dave did already provided those and walked us > through them > for example at the first interim, and we are doing ASCII art on > them > currently. > > As a reminder, we don't need ASCII art anymore, version 3 was > released for publishing.  If Dave contributes his pictures, we can > use them. > > In terms of how roles are discussed, I think that can be improved > further.  Can we just wait and give Dave a chance to write up the > text he has said he would help with on this rather than trying to > all do the same thing? > > > In fact, that very first action item wrt what we are working on > (well, > we paralleled some other items, too) back in early September was: > > > * to elaborate on the use of RATS Principals, including more > exemplary diagrams of RATS Role composition and interaction > between RATS Principals based on the use case document (and by > that address a unified mapping to TEEP, RIV, and models that use > EAT) > > So what am I hearing now is that Dave is now starting to do the > exact > same thing, with the exception of not using the terms defined in > the > architecture. Is that correct? I am still not sure what issues > we are > trying to address here. > > Not necessarily..  His work used terms in TEEP and SUIT.  Some of > these terms are defined int he current architecture document.  Once > he has this written, then merging again makes sense so that we can > then get language consistent and using what's been agreed upon to > date. I think this will actually speed up the work and adoption.  It > will also lower the learning curve.  You've done really good work > and I would like the barrier to entry lowered.  I would really like > to see all of this be successful and don't think this exercise will > take much time, but do think it will be very worthwhile. > > I'd like to see this happen in a few steps as described in my last > message. > > Best regards, > > Kathleen > > > Viele Grüße, > > Henk > > p.s. with respect to pair programming, I really hope that solutions > drafts simplify that process the same way the first RATS YANG > module > does it today, already. > > On 09.10.19 18:03, Kathleen Moriarty wrote: > > > > I would rather see the architectural patterns come before the > specific > > terminology.  If you look through the slides from Dave's > presentation at > > our previous interim meeting, he laid out several > architectural patterns > > using the same language that is used in SUIT and TEEP.  It is > desirable, > > IMO, to begin with architectural patterns that can be used in > necessary > > use cases.  Additional architectural patterns may arise, but > we have a > > nice starting point. > > > > See: > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2019-rats-02/materials/slides-interim-2019-rats-02-sessa-teep-and-rats-alignment > > > It defines the passport, background check, and verifying > relying party > > architectural patterns for RATS. > > It also provides an illustration of how the OTrP model for > device state > > can fold into each of those 3 RATS architectural patterns. > > > > What Dave is planning to do is to write text describing these > > architectural patterns.  It will likely be in the language > similar to > > what's been used in SUIT and TEEP as his slides match the > terminology. > > > > Attestation has countless use cases, and several known > architectural > > patterns to date.  The document would first define these > patterns.. > > Then, like SUIT, a high-level description of use cases could > be included > > with pointers to other future WG drafts that more fully > define the use > > cases.  Any additional terminology that is necessary could > then be > > added, but keeping in mind that we do not want unnecessary > terms.  If we > > start from the models, it will be easier to maintain the > scope and set > > of terms.  The terms would come from the current document, > but language > > may be adjusted as needed. > > > > The specific use case details that map claims could be in a > later > > section with the IANA section defining claims for use cases > to be added > > to the CWT and JWT registry. > > > > I work for Dell and would like to be able to bring this work > forward for > > PoCs.  However, our teams (like many others) use pair > programming..  This > > means the 2 coders work as a team and in our model, they > rotate to a new > > project every 2 weeks.  This helps with innovation and other > benefits. > > If each pairing team has a significant learning curve, a lot > of time > > will be wasted and the PoC would not make progress. > > > > If the goal for service providers and others is to use this > technology > > (as is my goal), we need to make it something that is > accessible to > > many.  The developers at many organizations will use crypto > libraries, > > but will not necessarily be security people.  They will be > starting from > > a point where they do not have security specific language nor > this very > > specific set of terms that is being defined.  The simpler we > can keep > > it, the better to gain wider adoption. > > > > I think if we step back and see what Dave does with the > document to > > define the architectural patterns, then we can decide how we > merge > > content with readability as a goal. > > > > Best regards, > > Kathleen > > > > On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 10:50 AM Schönwälder, Jürgen > > > > >> wrote: > > > >     Hi, > > > >     I did also look at the use cases document (I think -04) > after going > >     through the architecture document and I must admit that I > did not find > >     it too helpful to understand things better. I did not see > anything > >     architectural in there either. I guess I will read the teep > >     architecture next and perhaps that helps me to get a > better clue. > > > >     For people like me who are not deep into this technology > yet, getting > >     used to the rather specific terminology and concepts is a > certainly a > >     learning effort and I think the architecture document was > on its way > >     to get terms well defined and sorted out. Some more > examples or > >     explanations may help the reader further and I believe > this can be > >     achieved. > > > >     /js > > > >     On Wed, Oct 09, 2019 at 01:55:57PM +0200, Henk Birkholz > wrote: > >      > Hi Kathleen, > >      > hi list, > >      > > >      > it would help everybody, if you could explicitly > highlight what > >     the exact > >      > issues wrt readability in the current architecture I-D > are - > >     always in > >      > comparison with the use-case I-D, if it is doing a > better job in > >     that part? > >      > > >      > Jürgen provided a good example of what he found > confusing as a > >     first time > >      > reader - and that was really helpful and is resulting > in ongoing > >     work. > >      > > >      > Please mind, not everything is fleshed out in the > architecture > >     (e.g. the > >      > workflows derived from the use-cases). The plan was to > aim for a > >     stable > >      > nucleus, address the issues raised by the list, go through > >     adoption, and > >      > finish the document via the issue tracker in a > structured process. > >      > > >      > In summary, without an actual understanding why you > (or others!) > >     think the > >      > document is still hard to read, there is no way of compare > >     readability later > >      > on also. It would be really good to get more precise > feedback on > >     that. > >      > > >      > Viele Grüße, > >      > > >      > Henk > >      > > >      > > >      > > >      > > >      > On 09.10.19 13:31, Kathleen Moriarty wrote: > >      > > Hi Frank, > >      > > > >      > > Thank you for voicing your concern.  I think some > may hold off > >     until the > >      > > updates are provided, but please do voice your > opinions.  I > >     agree that > >      > > this work is too important and as such, readability is a > >     high priority. > >      > > If you read through the TEEP and SUIT architecture > drafts, they are > >      > > quite easy to follow and understand.  That is > critical for wide > >     spread > >      > > adoption.  We may be able to find a balance, but I > think this > >     exercise > >      > > may speed progress as we have not decided to adopt > this draft > >     yet as a > >      > > working group item. > >      > > > >      > > As it stands, the use case document is not an > architecture > >     document, but > >      > > it could be shaped as such and I'd really like to > see if we can > >     do that > >      > > in short order to have a comparison prior to an > adoption call. > >      > > > >      > > Best regards, > >      > > Kathleen > >      > > > >      > > On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 6:53 AM Xialiang (Frank, > Network Standard & > >      > > Patent Dept) > >      > > >      > > > >      >>> wrote: > >      > > > >      > >     Hi Kathleen,____ > >      > > > >      > >     __ __ > >      > > > >      > >     I am very concerned with this new direction and > I strongly > >     object.____ > >      > > > >      > >     __ __ > >      > > > >      > >     Current architecture draft goes through a lot > discussions and > >      > >     reaches many consensus. Right now, it really > helps IETF > >     (Teep for > >      > >     example), FIDO, TCG and many others. The only > issues are on > >      > >     readability, the standards track and the > completeness (e.g., > >      > >     passport and background check are still > missing). It is an > >     very good > >      > >     document and correct terminology is very > important for remote > >      > >     attestation.____ > >      > > > >      > >     __ __ > >      > > > >      > >     About use cases document, Its goal is just to > clarify a > >     sample list > >      > >     of scenarios that remote attestation can apply > to and then > >     deduce > >      > >     the requirements and the following concrete protocol > >     drafts. It is > >      > >     not fit to be an architecture.____ > >      > > > >      > >     __ __ > >      > > > >      > >     The current architecture is too important for > telecom and > >     network > >      > >     equipment vendors and service providers. I have > strong > >     doubts that > >      > >     current EAT and OTrPv2 alone is suitable for the > (virtualized) > >      > >     network infrastructure situation.____ > >      > > > >      > >     __ __ > >      > > > >      > >     B.R.____ > >      > > > >      > >     Frank____ > >      > > > >      > >     ____ > >      > > > >      > >     __ __ > >      > > > >      > >     This e-mail and its attachments contain confidential > >     information > >      > >     from HUAWEI, which is intended only for the > person or > >     entity whose > >      > >     address is listed above. Any use of the information > >     contained herein > >      > >     in any way (including, but not limited to, total > or partial > >      > >     disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) by > persons > >     other than > >      > >     the intended recipient(s) is prohibited. If you > receive > >     this e-mail > >      > >     in error, please notify the sender by phone or email > >     immediately and > >      > >     delete it!____ > >      > > > >      > >     __ __ > >      > > > >      > >     *发件人:*RATS [mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org > > >     > > >      > >      > >      >>] *代表 *Kathleen Moriarty > >      > >     *发送时间:*2019年10月8日19:25 > >      > >     *收件人:*rats@ietf.org > > > >      > >> > >      > >     *主题:*[Rats] Use case -> architecture document____ > >      > > > >      > >     __ __ > >      > > > >      > >     Hello! > >      > > > >      > >     I read through the latest version of the ‘use > case’ document > >      > >     yesterday and found it very easy to read and > understand, > >     meaning I > >      > >     think it is written well and could be easily > understood by many > >      > >     without having to climb up a learning curve. ____ > >      > > > >      > >     __ __ > >      > > > >      > >     First, this could be a very useful document to > register > >     claims for > >      > >     the use cases. > >      > > > >      > >     Second, if the workflow for the passport and > background > >     check were > >      > >     added and put in terms of the open trust > protocol v2 from > >     TEEP, we > >      > >     have a fairly nice architecture document that’s > easy to > >     read and may > >      > >     gain adoption.  The workflows cover the various > >     interactions between > >      > >     roles and TEEP has actively broken up OTrP in v2 to > >      > >     accommodate using EAT tokens, this would help > create that > >     link and > >      > >     make it very clear. > >      > > > >      > >     The other thing I like about the use case > document and think we > >      > >     should expand on is the references to other work > items. > >     This makes > >      > >     it an architecture document that maps out the > full plan of > >     the WG. > >      > > One like that was extremely well received by all the > ADs that don’t > >      > >     like informational/helpful documents. > >      > > > >      > >     I’m a bit nervous with the terminology being > defined and > >     would love > >      > >     to see something like this that’s simplified and > more easily > >      > >     adoptable. ____ > >      > > > >      > >     __ __ > >      > > > >      > >     I appreciate the work done to improve the > architecture > >     document, but > >      > >     I do think the structure changes to the use case > document as > >      > >     suggested could result in an easier to > understand (and > >     therefore > >      > >     easier to adopt) document.____ > >      > > > >      > >     __ __ > >      > > > >      > >     While the architecture document is more > readable, I think > >     we can do > >      > >     better.  Adoption is important and our > timeliness matters a > >     lot for > >      > >     this work.  EATs can be used for may use cases > with OTrPv2, > >     so let's > >      > >     keep it as simple as we can. > >      > > > >      > >     Thoughts are appreciated. > >      > > > >      > >     Best regards, > >      > >     Kathleen-- ____ > >      > > > >      > >     __ __ > >      > > > >      > >     Best regards,____ > >      > > > >      > >     Kathleen____ > >      > > > >      > > > >      > > > >      > > -- > >      > > > >      > > Best regards, > >      > > Kathleen > >      > > > >      > > _______________________________________________ > >      > > RATS mailing list > >      > > RATS@ietf.org > > > >      > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > > >      > > > >      > > >      > _______________________________________________ > >      > RATS mailing list > >      > RATS@ietf.org > > > >      > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > > > > >     -- > >     Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen > gGmbH > >     Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 > Bremen | Germany > >     Fax:   +49 421 200 3103 >   > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Best regards, > > Kathleen > > > -- > > Best regards, > > Kathleen > > > -- > > Best regards, > > Kathleen > > Juniper Business Use Only > From nobody Thu Oct 10 04:26:33 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39A77120BFE for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2019 04:26:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.436 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.436 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_SBL_CSS=3.335, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ApkSMXbDDxUq for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2019 04:26:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [IPv6:2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:de77]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 706F41200F8 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2019 04:26:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (business-178-015-097-209.static.arcor-ip.net [178.15.97.209]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6C63D1F456 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2019 11:26:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id DACC8346B; Thu, 10 Oct 2019 13:27:15 +0200 (CEST) From: Michael Richardson To: "rats\@ietf.org" In-reply-to: References: Comments: In-reply-to Kathleen Moriarty message dated "Wed, 09 Oct 2019 07:31:12 -0400." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 13:27:15 +0200 Message-ID: <2483.1570706835@dooku.sandelman.ca> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Use case -> architecture document X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 11:26:31 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kathleen Moriarty wrote: > As it stands, the use case document is not an architecture document, > but it could be shaped as such and I'd really like to see if we can do > that in short order to have a comparison prior to an adoption call. As the primary author of the use case document, I can't see how the document can be manipulated easily into an architecture document. If I were to do s= o, I'd wind up with a document that looks much like Henk's -02 document. And I'm not sure I'm willing to do an architecture document "on my own" Henk and I have had many discussions about these documents going back at least 8 months. What I am hearing is that some people prefer my lazy Canadian use of imprecise language over Henk's precise, almost mathetical, use of language. Perhaps this is a case of "Only Nixon can go to China"... ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixon_goes_to_China ) that is, only a native English speaker is allowed to be lazy and familiar with language. Any non-native speaker must be more precise. Henk and I have agreed that I will help with the Architecture document. We are in the process of setting up a time for a weekly work session. So my ask is that we go to the end of IETF106 before we change direction. =2D-=20 ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh network= s [=20 ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect= [=20 ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [=20 =09 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEERK+9HEcJHTJ9UqTMlUzhVv38QpAFAl2fFZMACgkQlUzhVv38 QpBNoAf/emTa2TUxfsnM0BBDqav3MGkFxgVO4bTn8jeap2iKemg3my7ZIHF2Q30u D/c4q84H01jMdNcOxR8EMKOkHAHOopAaDM54rT1+SiT1uaokEK69B4UBLMuK1TM0 7AYx0Ksax0CvU43x58/9Cp0M73d+Qxw0+S1/ki5r8s2ldBRjcmx6TqEvfjuc6pRW 6zznyhCNqueDzf/a392QzHMMIZ3WEoWrK0iCL9OnyQ2PJQlt7Q3W6pb9O5CJe4CF 6ZNLLUYibZA0v6/6v+WM/5fyCPOyNgP0WGp2dgqlf5jPWRjxUHhhv6rJ7ecZs0Vd Mo4wCgDStHOXOdkY4aZS9IN+/7QgIg== =3oQW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Thu Oct 10 04:27:22 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C5A1120BFE for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2019 04:27:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.436 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.436 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_SBL_CSS=3.335, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QyCZWhFC7geA for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2019 04:27:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [IPv6:2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:de77]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 995C51200F8 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2019 04:27:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (business-178-015-097-209.static.arcor-ip.net [178.15.97.209]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 79B891F456 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2019 11:27:18 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 15F8F346B; Thu, 10 Oct 2019 13:28:07 +0200 (CEST) From: Michael Richardson To: "rats\@ietf.org" In-reply-to: References: <20191009145006.r2pjsoo6jxirah64@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Comments: In-reply-to Kathleen Moriarty message dated "Wed, 09 Oct 2019 12:03:36 -0400." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 13:28:07 +0200 Message-ID: <2770.1570706887@dooku.sandelman.ca> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Use case -> architecture document X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 11:27:20 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kathleen Moriarty wrote: > What Dave is planning to do is to write text describing these > architectural patterns. It will likely be in the language similar to > what's been used in SUIT and TEEP as his slides match the terminology. Sounds good. The text is good to have. =2D-=20 ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh network= s [=20 ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect= [=20 ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [=20 =09 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEERK+9HEcJHTJ9UqTMlUzhVv38QpAFAl2fFcYACgkQlUzhVv38 QpAVOwf+KozsLNmcJK2+A9h9U79YMhr++VyAKzXMKg1HCTTGzvIu1acLgD6s/rqb Nlpy/orFx1l24zgE5bkNLXKFk6GWCagskwhJJJ/L6k/bzhRMxkGMi1URW2CTa2r2 GA73rBJhoIRhD8foy1uQjXMVP9YKbajJ3gZ8p2B9UR4Fmt3l7vLNdLPDHAQJ0GnL Cv2j1KSpBFctKaq6vq0o7LKkpkaQhmTLhBcyqC7pM6p5yqfWk9OxrCbVj40VGx2f PnqQuTQFn13m6FM/mzL+O7M9v6L72homKxcjhkf85QgxgeZWBkevghIWwHa/Ox9E FsjmkqAjrNvLnAlx82kPa0mzBIAFrw== =+KqY -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Thu Oct 10 04:45:56 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CE11120C0A for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2019 04:45:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.197 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DFILn0TKHz3R for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2019 04:45:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9863A120C1D for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2019 04:45:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [134.102.28.224] (unknown [134.102.28.224]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 46pq64588ZzyvX; Thu, 10 Oct 2019 13:45:48 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) From: Carsten Bormann In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 13:45:48 +0200 Cc: Juergen Schoenwaelder , Henk Birkholz , "Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)" , "rats@ietf.org" X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 592400746.9879121-8f5834d43a06bec4b25189eeafa33085 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <203F8673-A9B0-446B-966B-1FD05A5C2D41@tzi.org> References: <20191009145006.r2pjsoo6jxirah64@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> To: Kathleen Moriarty X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Use case -> architecture document X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 11:45:55 -0000 Hi Kathleen, It is hard to keep up with this torrent, and I=E2=80=99ll respond to a = snapshot. However, I would like to point out that there is a place for specs, and = a place for books. When 6LoWPAN was done (RFC 4919, RFC 4944), we wrote a book, and that is = definitely a better place to get a thorough introduction. The job of the spec is to crystallize consensus, not to serve as a = textbook. Where editorial issues hinder understanding, this can (and should!) be = fixed in the WG process. Restarting the effort comes with the danger of diluting the hard-earned = consensus. I like the fact that the spec is 10 pages net now. Adding examples and = other material may hinder adoption by making people think that the = architecture is complex. It is not. (I made this mistake enough = already, no need to repeat it here.) The main point of the architecture is to define the roles in unambiguous = terms, and the axioms we have about these roles. Without this, we = cannot communicate. If you try buying a house and don=E2=80=99t = understand the roles of buyer, seller, bank, and notary, you won=E2=80=99t= get a good outcome. The architecture document provides this, and = adding introductory material is only going to help so much (i.e., please = do, but in moderation). So my recommendation would be to adopt this document quickly, and to fix = any impediments to understanding it. Let the flowers bloom and write great documents about use cases (done), = usage scenarios and workflow patterns. These can then also make use of = the agreed terminology, which will tremendously help in understanding = them as a group. But please don=E2=80=99t hold up the progress of the architecture = document by introducing non-essential surgery. We need this document, = shipped. Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > On Oct 9, 2019, at 18:03, Kathleen Moriarty = wrote: >=20 >=20 > I would rather see the architectural patterns come before the specific = terminology. If you look through the slides from Dave's presentation at = our previous interim meeting, he laid out several architectural patterns = using the same language that is used in SUIT and TEEP. It is desirable, = IMO, to begin with architectural patterns that can be used in necessary = use cases. Additional architectural patterns may arise, but we have a = nice starting point. >=20 > See: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2019-rats-02/materials/slides= -interim-2019-rats-02-sessa-teep-and-rats-alignment > It defines the passport, background check, and verifying relying party = architectural patterns for RATS. =20 > It also provides an illustration of how the OTrP model for device = state can fold into each of those 3 RATS architectural patterns. >=20 > What Dave is planning to do is to write text describing these = architectural patterns. It will likely be in the language similar to = what's been used in SUIT and TEEP as his slides match the terminology. =20= >=20 > Attestation has countless use cases, and several known architectural = patterns to date. The document would first define these patterns. = Then, like SUIT, a high-level description of use cases could be included = with pointers to other future WG drafts that more fully define the use = cases. Any additional terminology that is necessary could then be = added, but keeping in mind that we do not want unnecessary terms. If we = start from the models, it will be easier to maintain the scope and set = of terms. The terms would come from the current document, but language = may be adjusted as needed. >=20 > The specific use case details that map claims could be in a later = section with the IANA section defining claims for use cases to be added = to the CWT and JWT registry. >=20 > I work for Dell and would like to be able to bring this work forward = for PoCs. However, our teams (like many others) use pair programming. = This means the 2 coders work as a team and in our model, they rotate to = a new project every 2 weeks. This helps with innovation and other = benefits. If each pairing team has a significant learning curve, a lot = of time will be wasted and the PoC would not make progress. =20 >=20 > If the goal for service providers and others is to use this technology = (as is my goal), we need to make it something that is accessible to = many. The developers at many organizations will use crypto libraries, = but will not necessarily be security people. They will be starting from = a point where they do not have security specific language nor this very = specific set of terms that is being defined. The simpler we can keep = it, the better to gain wider adoption. >=20 > I think if we step back and see what Dave does with the document to = define the architectural patterns, then we can decide how we merge = content with readability as a goal. >=20 > Best regards, > Kathleen >=20 > On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 10:50 AM Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder, J=C3=BCrgen = wrote: > Hi, >=20 > I did also look at the use cases document (I think -04) after going > through the architecture document and I must admit that I did not find > it too helpful to understand things better. I did not see anything > architectural in there either. I guess I will read the teep > architecture next and perhaps that helps me to get a better clue. >=20 > For people like me who are not deep into this technology yet, getting > used to the rather specific terminology and concepts is a certainly a > learning effort and I think the architecture document was on its way > to get terms well defined and sorted out. Some more examples or > explanations may help the reader further and I believe this can be > achieved. >=20 > /js >=20 > On Wed, Oct 09, 2019 at 01:55:57PM +0200, Henk Birkholz wrote: > > Hi Kathleen, > > hi list, > >=20 > > it would help everybody, if you could explicitly highlight what the = exact > > issues wrt readability in the current architecture I-D are - always = in > > comparison with the use-case I-D, if it is doing a better job in = that part? > >=20 > > J=C3=BCrgen provided a good example of what he found confusing as a = first time > > reader - and that was really helpful and is resulting in ongoing = work. > >=20 > > Please mind, not everything is fleshed out in the architecture (e.g. = the > > workflows derived from the use-cases). The plan was to aim for a = stable > > nucleus, address the issues raised by the list, go through adoption, = and > > finish the document via the issue tracker in a structured process. > >=20 > > In summary, without an actual understanding why you (or others!) = think the > > document is still hard to read, there is no way of compare = readability later > > on also. It would be really good to get more precise feedback on = that. > >=20 > > Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, > >=20 > > Henk > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > On 09.10.19 13:31, Kathleen Moriarty wrote: > > > Hi Frank, > > >=20 > > > Thank you for voicing your concern. I think some may hold off = until the > > > updates are provided, but please do voice your opinions. I agree = that > > > this work is too important and as such, readability is a high = priority. > > > If you read through the TEEP and SUIT architecture drafts, they = are > > > quite easy to follow and understand. That is critical for wide = spread > > > adoption. We may be able to find a balance, but I think this = exercise > > > may speed progress as we have not decided to adopt this draft yet = as a > > > working group item. > > >=20 > > > As it stands, the use case document is not an architecture = document, but > > > it could be shaped as such and I'd really like to see if we can do = that > > > in short order to have a comparison prior to an adoption call. > > >=20 > > > Best regards, > > > Kathleen > > >=20 > > > On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 6:53 AM Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & > > > Patent Dept) > > > wrote: > > >=20 > > > Hi Kathleen,____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > I am very concerned with this new direction and I strongly = object.____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > Current architecture draft goes through a lot discussions and > > > reaches many consensus. Right now, it really helps IETF (Teep = for > > > example), FIDO, TCG and many others. The only issues are on > > > readability, the standards track and the completeness (e.g., > > > passport and background check are still missing). It is an = very good > > > document and correct terminology is very important for remote > > > attestation.____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > About use cases document, Its goal is just to clarify a sample = list > > > of scenarios that remote attestation can apply to and then = deduce > > > the requirements and the following concrete protocol drafts. = It is > > > not fit to be an architecture.____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > The current architecture is too important for telecom and = network > > > equipment vendors and service providers. I have strong doubts = that > > > current EAT and OTrPv2 alone is suitable for the (virtualized) > > > network infrastructure situation.____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > B.R.____ > > >=20 > > > Frank____ > > >=20 > > > ____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > This e-mail and its attachments contain confidential = information > > > from HUAWEI, which is intended only for the person or entity = whose > > > address is listed above. Any use of the information contained = herein > > > in any way (including, but not limited to, total or partial > > > disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) by persons other = than > > > the intended recipient(s) is prohibited. If you receive this = e-mail > > > in error, please notify the sender by phone or email = immediately and > > > delete it!____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:*RATS = [mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org > > > ] *=E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 *Kathleen = Moriarty > > > *=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4:*2019=E5=B9=B410=E6=9C=888= =E6=97=A519:25 > > > *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:*rats@ietf.org = > > > *=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98:*[Rats] Use case -> architecture = document____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > Hello! > > >=20 > > > I read through the latest version of the =E2=80=98use case=E2=80= =99 document > > > yesterday and found it very easy to read and understand, = meaning I > > > think it is written well and could be easily understood by = many > > > without having to climb up a learning curve. ____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > First, this could be a very useful document to register claims = for > > > the use cases. > > >=20 > > > Second, if the workflow for the passport and background check = were > > > added and put in terms of the open trust protocol v2 from = TEEP, we > > > have a fairly nice architecture document that=E2=80=99s easy = to read and may > > > gain adoption. The workflows cover the various interactions = between > > > roles and TEEP has actively broken up OTrP in v2 to > > > accommodate using EAT tokens, this would help create that link = and > > > make it very clear. > > >=20 > > > The other thing I like about the use case document and think = we > > > should expand on is the references to other work items. This = makes > > > it an architecture document that maps out the full plan of the = WG. > > > One like that was extremely well received by all the ADs that = don=E2=80=99t > > > like informational/helpful documents. > > >=20 > > > I=E2=80=99m a bit nervous with the terminology being defined = and would love > > > to see something like this that=E2=80=99s simplified and more = easily > > > adoptable. ____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > I appreciate the work done to improve the architecture = document, but > > > I do think the structure changes to the use case document as > > > suggested could result in an easier to understand (and = therefore > > > easier to adopt) document.____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > While the architecture document is more readable, I think we = can do > > > better. Adoption is important and our timeliness matters a = lot for > > > this work. EATs can be used for may use cases with OTrPv2, so = let's > > > keep it as simple as we can. > > >=20 > > > Thoughts are appreciated. > > >=20 > > > Best regards, > > > Kathleen-- ____ > > >=20 > > > __ __ > > >=20 > > > Best regards,____ > > >=20 > > > Kathleen____ > > >=20 > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > --=20 > > >=20 > > > Best regards, > > > Kathleen > > >=20 > > > _______________________________________________ > > > RATS mailing list > > > RATS@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > > >=20 > >=20 > > _______________________________________________ > > RATS mailing list > > RATS@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats >=20 > --=20 > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 >=20 >=20 > --=20 >=20 > Best regards, > Kathleen From nobody Thu Oct 10 07:43:45 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1FCC120108 for ; 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Thu, 10 Oct 2019 07:43:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20191009145006.r2pjsoo6jxirah64@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <203F8673-A9B0-446B-966B-1FD05A5C2D41@tzi.org> In-Reply-To: <203F8673-A9B0-446B-966B-1FD05A5C2D41@tzi.org> From: Kathleen Moriarty Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 10:43:00 -0400 Message-ID: To: Carsten Bormann Cc: Juergen Schoenwaelder , Henk Birkholz , "Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)" , "rats@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000003eea1805948f6dd3" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Use case -> architecture document X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 14:43:43 -0000 --0000000000003eea1805948f6dd3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Carsten, On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 7:45 AM Carsten Bormann wrote: > Hi Kathleen, > > It is hard to keep up with this torrent, and I=E2=80=99ll respond to a sn= apshot. > > However, I would like to point out that there is a place for specs, and a > place for books. > When 6LoWPAN was done (RFC 4919, RFC 4944), we wrote a book, and that is > definitely a better place to get a thorough introduction. > I'm sure that will be helpful in time too, but companies are moving forward with attestation using proprietary formats now. I am concerned and would like this effort to be as successful as possible. As a former AD, I have read thousands of drafts, readability can be achieved with the use of complex terms being defined. Just to note, even Henk is not happy with several of the terms defined. Please don't insinuate that I don't know the difference between a book and a draft, this is not helpful to advance this discussion. My goal is to actually speed this work up and make it easily adoptable. There has been excellent work done and interoperability, as well as adoptability are critical. Dave Thaler agreed it could be more readable and offered to help. He has likely read as many drafts/RFCs, including architecture drafts across areas. > The job of the spec is to crystallize consensus, not to serve as a > textbook. > Where editorial issues hinder understanding, this can (and should!) be > fixed in the WG process. > Restarting the effort comes with the danger of diluting the hard-earned > consensus. > I didn't say the work would be discarded and clarified that yesterday as I interpret 'merge' differently than Henk and possibly you, maybe others. You may have missed that in previous threads. I believe we are at a point where many would like to see what is produced in short term to figure out how to make the document more readable. I would also like to make it as useful as possible for the IESG approval process. The ADs must see the document as useful and having just rolled off as an AD recently, I am familiar with the inner workings and challenges. Making this as easy as we can for the current AD is most appreciated. They are overburdened, so avoiding unnecessary discusses or abstains is a goal. > I like the fact that the spec is 10 pages net now. Adding examples and > other material may hinder adoption by making people think that the > architecture is complex. It is not. (I made this mistake enough already= , > no need to repeat it here.) > > The main point of the architecture is to define the roles in unambiguous > terms, and the axioms we have about these roles. Without this, we cannot > communicate. If you try buying a house and don=E2=80=99t understand the = roles of > buyer, seller, bank, and notary, you won=E2=80=99t get a good outcome. T= he > architecture document provides this, and adding introductory material is > only going to help so much (i.e., please do, but in moderation). > I think we should let the work progress and see how the document can be improved instead of continuing to comment here. Please do watch your phrasing on list as this message is an insult to me more personally. Some do agree the document could read better, so I do hope this has an impact on improving the document and making the technology more easily adoptable. I do hope more at the end of this process agree, and if not, the WG decides in any case. I think an improved document that's readable and perceived by others outside of the area of work is important. > > So my recommendation would be to adopt this document quickly, and to fix > any impediments to understanding it. > This work has begun. > Let the flowers bloom and write great documents about use cases (done), > usage scenarios and workflow patterns. These can then also make use of t= he > agreed terminology, which will tremendously help in understanding them as= a > group. > But please don=E2=80=99t hold up the progress of the architecture documen= t by > introducing non-essential surgery. We need this document, shipped. > I think this short break will actually speed things up. We will also have the IESG process and my goal is to make that smooth as well. Best regards, Kathleen > Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten > > > > On Oct 9, 2019, at 18:03, Kathleen Moriarty < > kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > I would rather see the architectural patterns come before the specific > terminology. If you look through the slides from Dave's presentation at > our previous interim meeting, he laid out several architectural patterns > using the same language that is used in SUIT and TEEP. It is desirable, > IMO, to begin with architectural patterns that can be used in necessary u= se > cases. Additional architectural patterns may arise, but we have a nice > starting point. > > > > See: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2019-rats-02/materials/slide= s-interim-2019-rats-02-sessa-teep-and-rats-alignment > > It defines the passport, background check, and verifying relying party > architectural patterns for RATS. > > It also provides an illustration of how the OTrP model for device state > can fold into each of those 3 RATS architectural patterns. > > > > What Dave is planning to do is to write text describing these > architectural patterns. It will likely be in the language similar to > what's been used in SUIT and TEEP as his slides match the terminology. > > > > Attestation has countless use cases, and several known architectural > patterns to date. The document would first define these patterns. Then, > like SUIT, a high-level description of use cases could be included with > pointers to other future WG drafts that more fully define the use cases. > Any additional terminology that is necessary could then be added, but > keeping in mind that we do not want unnecessary terms. If we start from > the models, it will be easier to maintain the scope and set of terms. Th= e > terms would come from the current document, but language may be adjusted = as > needed. > > > > The specific use case details that map claims could be in a later > section with the IANA section defining claims for use cases to be added t= o > the CWT and JWT registry. > > > > I work for Dell and would like to be able to bring this work forward fo= r > PoCs. However, our teams (like many others) use pair programming. This > means the 2 coders work as a team and in our model, they rotate to a new > project every 2 weeks. This helps with innovation and other benefits. I= f > each pairing team has a significant learning curve, a lot of time will be > wasted and the PoC would not make progress. > > > > If the goal for service providers and others is to use this technology > (as is my goal), we need to make it something that is accessible to many. > The developers at many organizations will use crypto libraries, but will > not necessarily be security people. They will be starting from a point > where they do not have security specific language nor this very specific > set of terms that is being defined. The simpler we can keep it, the bett= er > to gain wider adoption. > > > > I think if we step back and see what Dave does with the document to > define the architectural patterns, then we can decide how we merge conten= t > with readability as a goal. > > > > Best regards, > > Kathleen > > > > On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 10:50 AM Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder, J=C3=BCrgen < > J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I did also look at the use cases document (I think -04) after going > > through the architecture document and I must admit that I did not find > > it too helpful to understand things better. I did not see anything > > architectural in there either. I guess I will read the teep > > architecture next and perhaps that helps me to get a better clue. > > > > For people like me who are not deep into this technology yet, getting > > used to the rather specific terminology and concepts is a certainly a > > learning effort and I think the architecture document was on its way > > to get terms well defined and sorted out. Some more examples or > > explanations may help the reader further and I believe this can be > > achieved. > > > > /js > > > > On Wed, Oct 09, 2019 at 01:55:57PM +0200, Henk Birkholz wrote: > > > Hi Kathleen, > > > hi list, > > > > > > it would help everybody, if you could explicitly highlight what the > exact > > > issues wrt readability in the current architecture I-D are - always i= n > > > comparison with the use-case I-D, if it is doing a better job in that > part? > > > > > > J=C3=BCrgen provided a good example of what he found confusing as a f= irst > time > > > reader - and that was really helpful and is resulting in ongoing work= . > > > > > > Please mind, not everything is fleshed out in the architecture (e.g. > the > > > workflows derived from the use-cases). The plan was to aim for a stab= le > > > nucleus, address the issues raised by the list, go through adoption, > and > > > finish the document via the issue tracker in a structured process. > > > > > > In summary, without an actual understanding why you (or others!) thin= k > the > > > document is still hard to read, there is no way of compare readabilit= y > later > > > on also. It would be really good to get more precise feedback on that= . > > > > > > Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, > > > > > > Henk > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 09.10.19 13:31, Kathleen Moriarty wrote: > > > > Hi Frank, > > > > > > > > Thank you for voicing your concern. I think some may hold off unti= l > the > > > > updates are provided, but please do voice your opinions. I agree > that > > > > this work is too important and as such, readability is a high > priority. > > > > If you read through the TEEP and SUIT architecture drafts, they are > > > > quite easy to follow and understand. That is critical for wide > spread > > > > adoption. We may be able to find a balance, but I think this > exercise > > > > may speed progress as we have not decided to adopt this draft yet a= s > a > > > > working group item. > > > > > > > > As it stands, the use case document is not an architecture document= , > but > > > > it could be shaped as such and I'd really like to see if we can do > that > > > > in short order to have a comparison prior to an adoption call. > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > Kathleen > > > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 6:53 AM Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & > > > > Patent Dept) > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Kathleen,____ > > > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > > > I am very concerned with this new direction and I strongly > object.____ > > > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > > > Current architecture draft goes through a lot discussions and > > > > reaches many consensus. Right now, it really helps IETF (Teep f= or > > > > example), FIDO, TCG and many others. The only issues are on > > > > readability, the standards track and the completeness (e.g., > > > > passport and background check are still missing). It is an very > good > > > > document and correct terminology is very important for remote > > > > attestation.____ > > > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > > > About use cases document, Its goal is just to clarify a sample > list > > > > of scenarios that remote attestation can apply to and then dedu= ce > > > > the requirements and the following concrete protocol drafts. It > is > > > > not fit to be an architecture.____ > > > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > > > The current architecture is too important for telecom and netwo= rk > > > > equipment vendors and service providers. I have strong doubts > that > > > > current EAT and OTrPv2 alone is suitable for the (virtualized) > > > > network infrastructure situation.____ > > > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > > > B.R.____ > > > > > > > > Frank____ > > > > > > > > ____ > > > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > > > This e-mail and its attachments contain confidential informatio= n > > > > from HUAWEI, which is intended only for the person or entity > whose > > > > address is listed above. Any use of the information contained > herein > > > > in any way (including, but not limited to, total or partial > > > > disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) by persons other th= an > > > > the intended recipient(s) is prohibited. If you receive this > e-mail > > > > in error, please notify the sender by phone or email immediatel= y > and > > > > delete it!____ > > > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > > > *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:*RATS [mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.or= g > > > > ] *=E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 *Kathleen M= oriarty > > > > *=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4:*2019=E5=B9=B410=E6=9C=88= 8=E6=97=A519:25 > > > > *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:*rats@ietf.org > > > > *=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98:*[Rats] Use case -> architecture document__= __ > > > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > > > Hello! > > > > > > > > I read through the latest version of the =E2=80=98use case=E2= =80=99 document > > > > yesterday and found it very easy to read and understand, meanin= g > I > > > > think it is written well and could be easily understood by many > > > > without having to climb up a learning curve. ____ > > > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > > > First, this could be a very useful document to register claims > for > > > > the use cases. > > > > > > > > Second, if the workflow for the passport and background check > were > > > > added and put in terms of the open trust protocol v2 from TEEP, > we > > > > have a fairly nice architecture document that=E2=80=99s easy to= read and > may > > > > gain adoption. The workflows cover the various interactions > between > > > > roles and TEEP has actively broken up OTrP in v2 to > > > > accommodate using EAT tokens, this would help create that link > and > > > > make it very clear. > > > > > > > > The other thing I like about the use case document and think we > > > > should expand on is the references to other work items. This > makes > > > > it an architecture document that maps out the full plan of the > WG. > > > > One like that was extremely well received by all the ADs that don= =E2=80=99t > > > > like informational/helpful documents. > > > > > > > > I=E2=80=99m a bit nervous with the terminology being defined an= d would > love > > > > to see something like this that=E2=80=99s simplified and more e= asily > > > > adoptable. ____ > > > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > > > I appreciate the work done to improve the architecture document= , > but > > > > I do think the structure changes to the use case document as > > > > suggested could result in an easier to understand (and therefor= e > > > > easier to adopt) document.____ > > > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > > > While the architecture document is more readable, I think we ca= n > do > > > > better. Adoption is important and our timeliness matters a lot > for > > > > this work. EATs can be used for may use cases with OTrPv2, so > let's > > > > keep it as simple as we can. > > > > > > > > Thoughts are appreciated. > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > Kathleen-- ____ > > > > > > > > __ __ > > > > > > > > Best regards,____ > > > > > > > > Kathleen____ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > Kathleen > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > RATS mailing list > > > > RATS@ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > RATS mailing list > > > RATS@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > > > > -- > > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > > > > > > -- > > > > Best regards, > > Kathleen > > --=20 Best regards, Kathleen --0000000000003eea1805948f6dd3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Hi Carsten,

    On Thu, Oct 10, 2019 at 7:45 AM Carsten Bo= rmann <cabo@tzi.org> wrote:
    Hi Kathleen,

    It is hard to keep up with this torrent, and I=E2=80=99ll respond to a snap= shot.

    However, I would like to point out that there is a place for specs, and a p= lace for books.
    When 6LoWPAN was done (RFC 4919, RFC 4944), we wrote a book, and that is de= finitely a better place to get a thorough introduction.

    I'm sure that will be helpful in time too, but compani= es are moving forward with attestation using proprietary formats now.=C2=A0= I am concerned and would like this effort to be as successful as possible.= =C2=A0 As a former AD, I have read thousands of drafts, readability can be = achieved=C2=A0with the use of complex terms being defined.=C2=A0 Just to no= te, even Henk is not happy with several of the terms defined.=C2=A0 Please = don't insinuate that I don't know the difference between a book and= a draft, this is not helpful to advance this discussion.=C2=A0 My goal is = to actually speed this work up and make it easily adoptable.=C2=A0 There ha= s been excellent work done and interoperability, as well as adoptability ar= e critical.

    Dave Thaler agreed it could be more re= adable and offered to help.=C2=A0 He has likely read as many drafts/RFCs, i= ncluding architecture drafts across areas.=C2=A0=C2=A0

    =

    The job of the spec is to crystallize consensus, not to serve as a textbook= .
    Where editorial issues hinder understanding, this can (and should!) be fixe= d in the WG process.
    Restarting the effort comes with the danger of diluting the hard-earned con= sensus.

    I didn't say the work would= be discarded and clarified that yesterday as I interpret 'merge' d= ifferently than Henk and possibly you, maybe others. You may have missed th= at in previous threads.

    I believe we are at a poin= t where many would like to see what is produced in short term to figure out= how to make the document more readable.=C2=A0 I would also like to make it= as useful as possible for the IESG approval process.=C2=A0 The ADs must se= e the document as useful and having just rolled off as an AD recently, I am= familiar with the inner workings and challenges. Making this as easy as we= can for the current AD is most appreciated.=C2=A0 They are overburdened, s= o avoiding unnecessary discusses or abstains is a goal.


    I like the fact that the spec is 10 pages net now.=C2=A0 Adding examples an= d other material may hinder adoption by making people think that the archit= ecture is complex.=C2=A0 It is not.=C2=A0 (I made this mistake enough alrea= dy, no need to repeat it here.)

    The main point of the architecture is to define the roles in unambiguous te= rms, and the axioms we have about these roles.=C2=A0 Without this, we canno= t communicate.=C2=A0 If you try buying a house and don=E2=80=99t understand= the roles of buyer, seller, bank, and notary, you won=E2=80=99t get a good= outcome.=C2=A0 The architecture document provides this, and adding introdu= ctory material is only going to help so much (i.e., please do, but in moder= ation).

    I think we should let the work = progress and see how the document can be improved instead of continuing to = comment here.=C2=A0 Please do watch your phrasing on list as this message i= s an insult to me more personally.

    Some do agree t= he document could read better, so I do hope this has an impact on improving= the document and making the technology more easily adoptable.=C2=A0 I do h= ope more at the end of this process agree, and if not, the WG decides in an= y case.
    I think an improved document that's readable and perc= eived by others outside of the area of work is important.

    So my recommendation would be to adopt this document quickly, and to fix an= y impediments to understanding it.

    This= work has begun.
    =C2=A0
    Let the flowers bloom and write great documents about use cases (done), usa= ge scenarios and workflow patterns.=C2=A0 These can then also make use of t= he agreed terminology, which will tremendously help in understanding them a= s a group.
    But please don=E2=80=99t hold up the progress of the architecture document = by introducing non-essential surgery.=C2=A0 We need this document, shipped.=

    I think this short break will actually= speed things up.=C2=A0 We will also have the IESG process and my goal is t= o make that smooth as well.

    Best regards,
    Kathleen


    Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten


    > On Oct 9, 2019, at 18:03, Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmai= l.com> wrote:
    >
    >
    > I would rather see the architectural patterns come before the specific= terminology.=C2=A0 If you look through the slides from Dave's presenta= tion at our previous interim meeting, he laid out several architectural pat= terns using the same language that is used in SUIT and TEEP.=C2=A0 It is de= sirable, IMO, to begin with architectural patterns that can be used in nece= ssary use cases.=C2=A0 Additional architectural patterns may arise, but we = have a nice starting point.
    >
    > See: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/int= erim-2019-rats-02/materials/slides-interim-2019-rats-02-sessa-teep-and-rats= -alignment
    > It defines the passport, background check, and verifying relying party= architectural patterns for RATS.=C2=A0
    > It also provides an illustration of how the OTrP model for device stat= e can fold into each of those 3 RATS architectural patterns.
    >
    > What Dave is planning to do is to write text describing these architec= tural patterns.=C2=A0 It will likely be in the language similar to what'= ;s been used in SUIT and TEEP as his slides match the terminology.=C2=A0 >
    > Attestation has countless use cases, and several known architectural p= atterns to date.=C2=A0 The document would first define these patterns.=C2= =A0 Then, like SUIT, a high-level description of use cases could be include= d with pointers to other future WG drafts that more fully define the use ca= ses.=C2=A0 Any additional terminology that is necessary could then be added= , but keeping in mind that we do not want unnecessary terms.=C2=A0 If we st= art from the models, it will be easier to maintain the scope and set of ter= ms.=C2=A0 The terms would come from the current document, but language may = be adjusted as needed.
    >
    > The specific use case details that map claims could be in a later sect= ion with the IANA section defining claims for use cases to be added to the = CWT and JWT registry.
    >
    > I work for Dell and would like to be able to bring this work forward f= or PoCs.=C2=A0 However, our teams (like many others) use pair programming.= =C2=A0 This means the 2 coders work as a team and in our model, they rotate= to a new project every 2 weeks.=C2=A0 This helps with innovation and other= benefits.=C2=A0 If each pairing team has a significant learning curve, a l= ot of time will be wasted and the PoC would not make progress.=C2=A0
    >
    > If the goal for service providers and others is to use this technology= (as is my goal), we need to make it something that is accessible to many.= =C2=A0 The developers at many organizations will use crypto libraries, but = will not necessarily be security people.=C2=A0 They will be starting from a= point where they do not have security specific language nor this very spec= ific set of terms that is being defined.=C2=A0 The simpler we can keep it, = the better to gain wider adoption.
    >
    > I think if we step back and see what Dave does with the document to de= fine the architectural patterns, then we can decide how we merge content wi= th readability as a goal.
    >
    > Best regards,
    > Kathleen
    >
    > On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 10:50 AM Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder, J=C3=BCrgen <= ;= J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
    > Hi,
    >
    > I did also look at the use cases document (I think -04) after going > through the architecture document and I must admit that I did not find=
    > it too helpful to understand things better. I did not see anything
    > architectural in there either. I guess I will read the teep
    > architecture next and perhaps that helps me to get a better clue.
    >
    > For people like me who are not deep into this technology yet, getting<= br> > used to the rather specific terminology and concepts is a certainly a<= br> > learning effort and I think the architecture document was on its way > to get terms well defined and sorted out. Some more examples or
    > explanations may help the reader further and I believe this can be
    > achieved.
    >
    > /js
    >
    > On Wed, Oct 09, 2019 at 01:55:57PM +0200, Henk Birkholz wrote:
    > > Hi Kathleen,
    > > hi list,
    > >
    > > it would help everybody, if you could explicitly highlight what t= he exact
    > > issues wrt readability in the current architecture I-D are - alwa= ys in
    > > comparison with the use-case I-D, if it is doing a better job in = that part?
    > >
    > > J=C3=BCrgen provided a good example of what he found confusing as= a first time
    > > reader - and that was really helpful and is resulting in ongoing = work.
    > >
    > > Please mind, not everything is fleshed out in the architecture (e= .g. the
    > > workflows derived from the use-cases). The plan was to aim for a = stable
    > > nucleus, address the issues raised by the list, go through adopti= on, and
    > > finish the document via the issue tracker in a structured process= .
    > >
    > > In summary, without an actual understanding why you (or others!) = think the
    > > document is still hard to read, there is no way of compare readab= ility later
    > > on also. It would be really good to get more precise feedback on = that.
    > >
    > > Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
    > >
    > > Henk
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > On 09.10.19 13:31, Kathleen Moriarty wrote:
    > > > Hi Frank,
    > > >
    > > > Thank you for voicing your concern.=C2=A0 I think some may h= old off until the
    > > > updates are provided, but please do voice your opinions.=C2= =A0 I agree that
    > > > this work is too important and as such, readability is a hig= h priority.
    > > > If you read through the TEEP and SUIT architecture drafts, t= hey are
    > > > quite easy to follow and understand.=C2=A0 That is critical = for wide spread
    > > > adoption.=C2=A0 We may be able to find a balance, but I thin= k this exercise
    > > > may speed progress as we have not decided to adopt this draf= t yet as a
    > > > working group item.
    > > >
    > > > As it stands, the use case document is not an architecture d= ocument, but
    > > > it could be shaped as such and I'd really like to see if= we can do that
    > > > in short order to have a comparison prior to an adoption cal= l.
    > > >
    > > > Best regards,
    > > > Kathleen
    > > >
    > > > On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 6:53 AM Xialiang (Frank, Network Stan= dard &
    > > > Patent Dept) <frank.xialiang@huawei.com
    > > > <mailto:frank.xialiang@huawei.com>> wrote:
    > > >
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi Kathleen,____
    > > >
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    > > >
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I am very concerned with this new directi= on and I strongly object.____
    > > >
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    > > >
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Current architecture draft goes through a= lot discussions and
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0reaches many consensus. Right now, it rea= lly helps IETF (Teep for
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0example), FIDO, TCG and many others. The = only issues are on
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0readability, the standards track and the = completeness (e.g.,
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0passport and background check are still m= issing). It is an very good
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0document and correct terminology is very = important for remote
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0attestation.____
    > > >
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    > > >
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0About use cases document, Its goal is jus= t to clarify a sample list
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of scenarios that remote attestation can = apply to and then deduce
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the requirements and the following concre= te protocol drafts. It is
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0not fit to be an architecture.____
    > > >
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    > > >
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The current architecture is too important= for telecom and network
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0equipment vendors and service providers. = I have strong doubts that
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0current EAT and OTrPv2 alone is suitable = for the (virtualized)
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0network infrastructure situation.____
    > > >
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    > > >
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0B.R.____
    > > >
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Frank____
    > > >
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0____
    > > >
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    > > >
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This e-mail and its attachments contain c= onfidential information
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0from HUAWEI, which is intended only for t= he person or entity whose
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0address is listed above. Any use of the i= nformation contained herein
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0in any way (including, but not limited to= , total or partial
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0disclosure, reproduction, or disseminatio= n) by persons other than
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the intended recipient(s) is prohibited. = If you receive this e-mail
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0in error, please notify the sender by pho= ne or email immediately and
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0delete it!____
    > > >
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    > > >
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:*RATS [mailt= o:rats-bounces@i= etf.org
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>] *=E4=BB=A3=E8= =A1=A8 *Kathleen Moriarty
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4:*20= 19=E5=B9=B410=E6=9C=888=E6=97=A519:25
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:*rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org>
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98:*[Rats] Use case ->= ; architecture document____
    > > >
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    > > >
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hello!
    > > >
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I read through the latest version of the = =E2=80=98use case=E2=80=99 document
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0yesterday and found it very easy to read = and understand, meaning I
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0think it is written well and could be eas= ily understood by many
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0without having to climb up a learning cur= ve. ____
    > > >
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    > > >
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0First, this could be a very useful docume= nt to register claims for
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0the use cases.
    > > >
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Second, if the workflow for the passport = and background check were
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0added and put in terms of the open trust = protocol v2 from TEEP, we
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0have a fairly nice architecture document = that=E2=80=99s easy to read and may
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0gain adoption.=C2=A0 The workflows cover = the various interactions between
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0roles and TEEP has actively broken up OTr= P in v2 to
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0accommodate using EAT tokens, this would = help create that link and
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0make it very clear.
    > > >
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0The other thing I like about the use case= document and think we
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0should expand on is the references to oth= er work items.=C2=A0 This makes
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0it an architecture document that maps out= the full plan of the WG.
    > > > One like that was extremely well received by all the ADs tha= t don=E2=80=99t
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0like informational/helpful documents.
    > > >
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I=E2=80=99m a bit nervous with the termin= ology being defined and would love
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0to see something like this that=E2=80=99s= simplified and more easily
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0adoptable. ____
    > > >
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    > > >
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I appreciate the work done to improve the= architecture document, but
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I do think the structure changes to the u= se case document as
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0suggested could result in an easier to un= derstand (and therefore
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0easier to adopt) document.____
    > > >
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    > > >
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0While the architecture document is more r= eadable, I think we can do
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0better.=C2=A0 Adoption is important and o= ur timeliness matters a lot for
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0this work.=C2=A0 EATs can be used for may= use cases with OTrPv2, so let's
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0keep it as simple as we can.
    > > >
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Thoughts are appreciated.
    > > >
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Best regards,
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Kathleen-- ____
    > > >
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __
    > > >
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Best regards,____
    > > >
    > > >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Kathleen____
    > > >
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > --
    > > >
    > > > Best regards,
    > > > Kathleen
    > > >
    > > > _______________________________________________
    > > > RATS mailing list
    > > > RATS@ietf= .org
    > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rat= s
    > > >
    > >
    > > _______________________________________________
    > > RATS mailing list
    > > RATS@ietf.org<= /a>
    > >     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats >
    > --
    > Juergen Schoenwaelder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jacobs U= niversity Bremen gGmbH
    > Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Campus Ring 1= | 28759 Bremen | Germany
    > Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<= ;https://www.jacobs-university.de/>
    >
    >
    > --
    >
    > Best regards,
    > Kathleen



    --

    Best regards,
    Kathleen
    --0000000000003eea1805948f6dd3-- From nobody Thu Oct 10 11:45:57 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63CB2120827 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2019 11:45:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xymPrwZE7lve for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2019 11:45:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p3plsmtpa06-09.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa06-09.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [173.201.192.110]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 63590120813 for ; Thu, 10 Oct 2019 11:45:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.15.0.14] ([45.56.150.64]) by :SMTPAUTH: with ESMTPA id IdRYi9nhy4rZ1IdRYihCmy; Thu, 10 Oct 2019 11:45:45 -0700 From: Laurence Lundblade Message-Id: <10785046-544F-4406-BEC0-A138254FEAC8@island-resort.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_554D4C5B-039B-4837-BABF-6272057AF5B7" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 11:45:44 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: Carsten Bormann , "Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)" , Juergen Schoenwaelder , Henk Birkholz To: Kathleen Moriarty , "rats@ietf.org" References: <20191009145006.r2pjsoo6jxirah64@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <203F8673-A9B0-446B-966B-1FD05A5C2D41@tzi.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfFz/GWb2fe5tBziF2qIB0ufRUpOp492J9TH28YCNK0HO1Z9O01wd8I5HPoPxeTNGIHMLBDRHeMKv2BHaAW/digSH4A4GQOAhpY2HsacX0/otAwbYDGAU qDqDEhgf+Nu+qPhn1iAl69/n536HX94UdAojrTSgzqwDSUFaWR8Mi8HaqJq7nsFTRs0s6JGYsjfoc37Q81CbR+pNYUXVAW5doj6T+JkqWt3q6W7kI09KZM/I AzibdEsyjpRijoauRF8FQinTFRLM7XRwFsi//XFX8TvmmjodFx/kk3cFmA1Y1Cl9SRkWhFu3KUyPrwHSGzKdyGqaGRwYn2dCcAXEDjYGMPqUyh/YlPhmk8OT KcaIBQyo2u6wLN+kRvGmQ9Za76g5lg== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Use case -> architecture document X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 18:45:56 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_554D4C5B-039B-4837-BABF-6272057AF5B7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I know Henk has put lots of work into this. Here=E2=80=99s some = hopefully concrete and helpful comments on why it is hard for me to = read. I think this work is hard because we have different well-establishes = worlds (TCG, TEE, router/Yang, mobile apps worlds) coming together that = have been unconsciously using terminology in very particular ways for a = long time. Coming to common terminology seems important. In the intro: The long-standing Internet Threat Model [RFC3552] focuses on threats to = the communication channel, as pioneered by Dolev and Yao [DOLEV-YAO] in = 1983. However, threats to the endpoint [RFC5209] and system components = [RFC4949] of transited communication gear (i.e. hosts) are increasingly = relevant for assessing the trustworthiness properties of a communication = channel. Beyond the collection and conveyance of security posture = [RFC5209] about an endpoint (host), remote attestation provides = believable trustworthiness claims ("Evidence") about an endpoint (host). = In general, this document provides normative guidance how to use, create = or adopt network protocols that facilitate RATS. This sentence about transited gear and trusting the channel is = confusing. Is the gear in moving around or is something moving through = the gear? It is hard to tell from the sentence. I don=E2=80=99t think we = are assessing communication channels, so mention of them seems both = wrong and extraneous. Mention of NEA [RFC5209] is probably not needed in the introduction. The = way it is introduced, you have to follow the link to know what the = sentence is trying to say unless you happen to know that 5209 is NEA and = what NEA is. The last sentence could probably be left off. First bullet in 1.1: o In remote attestation workflows, trustworthiness Claims are accompanied by a proof of veracity. Typically, this proof is a cryptographic expression such as a digital signature or message digest. Trustworthiness Claims with proof is what makes attestation Evidence believable. Claims haven=E2=80=99t been properly introduced at this point in the = document The word =E2=80=9Cworkflow=E2=80=9D is unnecessary.=20 The adjective =E2=80=9Ctrustworthiness=E2=80=9D applied to claims is = unnecessary and confusing. Are they different from untrustworthy claims? =E2=80=9Cproof of veracity=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ccryptographic = expression=E2=80=9D are bonus technical terms that don=E2=80=99t help. Instead of the whole paragraph: =E2=80=9CClaims are digitally signed to = prove their origin=E2=80=9D (yes, they can be MAC=E2=80=99d, but it is = very untypical and the intro doesn=E2=80=99t need to be burdened = mentioning it). Some of the sources of difficult readability are: Use of lots of extra and varying technical terms for roughly the same = thing. For example =E2=80=9Cproof of veracity=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Ccryptogra= phic expression=E2=80=9D.=20 Out of order introduction of concepts and terminology. For example, = =E2=80=9Cclaim=E2=80=9D is used before being described.=20 Extraneous words and framing.=20 It feels like each sentence or paragraph is trying to say too much. Lots of abstraction and few easy-to-relate-to examples. LL= --Apple-Mail=_554D4C5B-039B-4837-BABF-6272057AF5B7 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
    I know Henk has put lots of work into this. Here=E2=80=99s = some hopefully concrete and helpful comments on why it is hard for me to = read.

    I think = this work is hard because we have different well-establishes worlds = (TCG, TEE, router/Yang, mobile apps worlds) coming together that have = been unconsciously using terminology in very particular ways for a long = time. Coming to common terminology seems important.


    In the intro:
    The long-standing Internet Threat = Model [RFC3552] focuses on threats to the communication channel, as = pioneered by Dolev and Yao [DOLEV-YAO] in 1983. However, threats to = the endpoint [RFC5209] and system components [RFC4949] of transited = communication gear (i.e. hosts) are increasingly relevant for = assessing the trustworthiness properties of a communication = channel. Beyond the collection and conveyance of security posture = [RFC5209] about an endpoint (host), remote attestation provides = believable trustworthiness claims ("Evidence") about an endpoint = (host). In general, this document provides normative guidance how = to use, create or adopt network protocols that facilitate = RATS.

    • This sentence about transited gear and trusting the channel = is confusing. Is the gear in moving around or is something moving = through the gear? It is hard to tell from the sentence. I don=E2=80=99t = think we are assessing communication channels, so mention of them seems = both wrong and extraneous.
    • Mention of NEA [RFC5209] = is probably not needed in the introduction. The way it is introduced, = you have to follow the link to know what the  sentence is trying to = say unless you happen to know that 5209 is NEA and what NEA is.
    • The last sentence could probably be left = off.


    First bullet in 1.1:

       o  In remote attestation = workflows, trustworthiness Claims are
        =   accompanied by a proof of veracity.  Typically, this proof = is a
          cryptographic = expression such as a digital signature or message
          digest.  Trustworthiness Claims = with proof is what makes
          attestation = Evidence believable.

    • Claims haven=E2=80=99t been properly introduced at this point = in the document
    • The word =E2=80=9Cworkflow=E2=80=9D = is unnecessary. 
    • The adjective = =E2=80=9Ctrustworthiness=E2=80=9D applied to claims is unnecessary and = confusing. Are they different from untrustworthy claims?
    • =E2=80=9Cproof of veracity=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ccryptographic = expression=E2=80=9D are bonus technical terms that don=E2=80=99t = help.
    • Instead of the whole paragraph: =E2=80=9CClaims = are digitally signed to prove their origin=E2=80=9D (yes, they can be = MAC=E2=80=99d, but it is very untypical and the intro doesn=E2=80=99t = need to be burdened mentioning it).


    Some of the sources of difficult readability are:
    • Use of lots of extra = and varying technical terms for roughly the same thing. For example = =E2=80=9Cproof of veracity=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Ccryptographic = expression=E2=80=9D. 
    • Out of order introduction = of concepts and terminology. For example, =E2=80=9Cclaim=E2=80=9D is = used before being described. 
    • Extraneous words = and framing. 
    • It feels like each sentence or = paragraph is trying to say too much.
    • Lots of = abstraction and few easy-to-relate-to examples.

    LL
    = --Apple-Mail=_554D4C5B-039B-4837-BABF-6272057AF5B7-- From nobody Fri Oct 11 07:49:26 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FE82120052 for ; Fri, 11 Oct 2019 07:49:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, HK_RANDOM_FROM=0.999, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9ezoKTZoOs29 for ; Fri, 11 Oct 2019 07:49:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ed1-x534.google.com (mail-ed1-x534.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::534]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 684B812003F for ; Fri, 11 Oct 2019 07:49:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x534.google.com with SMTP id c4so8941011edl.0 for ; Fri, 11 Oct 2019 07:49:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=gKMk4zJIK07IYVNkJf+BKv0ikRPclTL+du+51WafQN0=; b=XhVfxqZ9+c6lUY0roa1jqgl5WmfvEHKSiILWhrF1bhYfcrbtziwGG0kXS/IRCz3pFo 3OKD6kBpXQJWLNI94cGXHfSzsMQZ3eaOFK+T2l0Drp9T6MIeLnKAMimM85/gNNphhYnS HjzgqPl1DwLZA1AvbJMwNeLFD0URWhx6+1PS0ECUN0jURIpsdOGD9xxZMiKyIEOLlvbr sAQjX62TAvRda+5Fv6JII51jP/ghVA0IG/LpukCFg8ycC97P0vMOK2dwnyP0NphmbmQU xWPZWqqgFmhU/YbreVnzn2y3F2JGerb65oaOd85FHTYASja2gdM5Wwe46UPwhNulldPL 5SDQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=gKMk4zJIK07IYVNkJf+BKv0ikRPclTL+du+51WafQN0=; b=t/EL5Mim/yBA66ziPFIPkvVISy9B3h0YPDod20b0mpqr8Wbk4SKvfPddgY9K1aF+0s WPoFJYVdz/zZgW0EcWvTy14wtmlSdVqT/NVw6vza68LJi5+SQknJf2zQjDiW89uuExQ5 iKU0I+YZD2EAdvwvR7nWriORdrnehQGneEK/opXGK4kyrhdl8JB2WioDZjhsC0HB9aUt BDN/A4NAVDBghRZVlzn5R6qIKRDr0Vf8h+pC7WRfXIL5IVO2PmDMtBwX16BADWuHZK4K AMtxImTBvqSILRO6OEiJnMYvxVBejDJW6miOAfQqYQMoJuynsIO8WsAuaDH+uq9on966 Ia8g== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVeKlk7mLvBIyat9+QbEAbxIZyHMBNzUsYeZFyJAkANmjvJrBSY pDJXKc3v4OBR4M8wXDTdqZ1+ZTyjZ3MzQ/FcQys= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwlZpGWY1AF2A6iwyWP3o78g19wE2CWlkph6Q06at2/GWaTgVxjAVUkklHglTFxvpa8Q3VLawR/bIWAWEUv+ME= X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:426f:: with SMTP id nx23mr14908738ejb.43.1570805361780; Fri, 11 Oct 2019 07:49:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <30566.1570446100@dooku.sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: <30566.1570446100@dooku.sandelman.ca> From: Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2019 10:49:10 -0400 Message-ID: To: Michael Richardson Cc: rats@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000099ac770594a39fce" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] RATS use cases review X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2019 14:49:25 -0000 --00000000000099ac770594a39fce Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Michael, That's fine, we can back-burner my suggestions until we a) finish collecting all the use cases we want to include, and b) are ready to address what claims are necessary to fulfill each use case. As a potential "end user" of attestation standards, I want RATS to be able to answer the question of whether or not I can trust a device on my network. And, the answer to that question will depend a lot on what kind of claims I can get and verify from the device. But I can see that being outside the scope of the style use case document we are writing right now. Thanks, Jess On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 at 8:35 AM Michael Richardson wrote: > > Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay wrote: > > I took a careful read of the use cases document. I notices that > > Sections 5.1 - 5.6.2 each are variations on the themes of attesting > to > > a device's: > > ... > > > In this light, the right approach is to organize the document around > > the information that is being attested (the above list, plus end-user > > information (section 5.6.3), geographic attestation (section 5.7), > and > > connectivity attestation (section 5.8)), with perhaps additional > > information on how these types of attestation can be combined in > > support of things like, say, critical infrastructure security, etc. > > > What does the work group think? > > This thread didn't go very far, unfortunately. > I've spent quite a few hours since thinking about your suggestion. > In many ways, the Thursday morning side-meeting went in the other > direction, > providing new situations which differed from existing use cases only in the > severity. > > As I explain in another email, I have added a set of attributes to each use > case, being; > - Who will use it: > - Attestation type: (passport or background check) > - Attesting Party > - Relying Party > - Claims used > > The claims used are all TBD at this point. > > As I said at the meeting in March, I don't want to do ontology up-front, > but > rather to just collect all sorts of things, even if they seem to overlap. > Some of Guy's suggestions (in a PDF he sent me) also related to refactoring > some use cases, and while I actually agree with his suggestion, I still > want > to avoid that. > > -- > ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh > networks [ > ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network > architect [ > ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on > rails [ > > > --00000000000099ac770594a39fce Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Micha= el,

    That's fine, we can b= ack-burner my suggestions until we a) finish collecting all the use cases w= e want to include, and b) are ready to address what claims are necessary to= fulfill each use case.=C2=A0

    As a potential "end user" of attestation standards, I want RATS = to be able to answer the question of whether or not I can trust a device on= my network. And, the answer to that question will depend a lot on what kin= d of claims I can get and verify from the device. But I can see that being = outside the scope of the style use case document we are writing right now.= =C2=A0

    =
    Thanks,
    Jess

    On Mon, Oct 7, 2019 = at 8:35 AM Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:

    Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay <jmfmckay@gmail.com> wrote:
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I took a careful read of the use cases document. I notic= es that
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Sections 5.1 - 5.6.2 each are variations on the themes o= f attesting to
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > a device's:

    ...

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > In this light, the right approach is to organize the doc= ument around
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > the information that is being attested (the above list, = plus end-user
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > information (section 5.6.3), geographic attestation (sec= tion 5.7), and
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > connectivity attestation (section 5.8)), with perhaps ad= ditional
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > information on how these types of attestation can be com= bined in
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > support of things like, say, critical infrastructure sec= urity, etc.

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > What does the work group think?

    This thread didn't go very far, unfortunately.
    I've spent quite a few hours since thinking about your suggestion.
    In many ways, the Thursday morning side-meeting went in the other direction= ,
    providing new situations which differed from existing use cases only in the=
    severity.

    As I explain in another email, I have added a set of attributes to each use=
    case, being;
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Who will use it:
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Attestation type: (passport or background chec= k)
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Attesting Party
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Relying Party
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Claims used

    The claims used are all TBD at this point.

    As I said at the meeting in March, I don't want to do ontology up-front= , but
    rather to just collect all sorts of things, even if they seem to overlap. Some of Guy's suggestions (in a PDF he sent me) also related to refacto= ring
    some use cases, and while I actually agree with his suggestion, I still wan= t
    to avoid that.

    --
    ]=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Never tell me the o= dds!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| ipv6 me= sh networks [
    ]=C2=A0 =C2=A0Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 | network architect=C2=A0 [
    ]=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= mcr@sandelman.ca=C2=A0 http://www.sandelman.ca/=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=A0ruby on rails=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [


    --00000000000099ac770594a39fce-- From nobody Fri Oct 11 11:36:49 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8EA51200F9 for ; Fri, 11 Oct 2019 11:36:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xwAPeebwBOoI for ; Fri, 11 Oct 2019 11:36:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p3plsmtpa12-05.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa12-05.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [68.178.252.234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6691912011C for ; Fri, 11 Oct 2019 11:36:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.108] ([76.192.164.238]) by :SMTPAUTH: with ESMTPSA id IzmNiz0QcrIEMIzmNigP2e; Fri, 11 Oct 2019 11:36:44 -0700 From: Laurence Lundblade Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B4778EBE-633F-48CB-8CC4-52D4A43DDB61" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Message-Id: <9C829332-AFD3-460F-887E-84264B8D80EC@island-resort.com> Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2019 11:36:43 -0700 To: rats@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfEeqKNbyOkOONWifavY4Chd4hYkurq/Ty4Uig4UBlieh2SmBlOjVeDCvEpkAP0y9DPgx+vlNGfDMtX3YT/20NqmwfOAHfacFI201UTKLYrMjnNmwueRB PGrd8f3zvAwpQP/tCR8nql6lfg5KKYFF/CZ0TiUjVVnj0CiYPKTv7Tql Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] Request for review on updated debug state claim X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Oct 2019 18:36:48 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_B4778EBE-633F-48CB-8CC4-52D4A43DDB61 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Working towards a new EAT draft for Singapore, I=E2=80=99ve created this = pull request to address = this issue on debug = state. The sort of review I=E2=80=99m looking for is: - Does this work for Intel CPUs / SoCs - Does this work for Arm CPUs / SoCs - Does this work for xxx CPUs / SoCs =20 I know we have Arm and Intel people heavily participating here. :-) LL --Apple-Mail=_B4778EBE-633F-48CB-8CC4-52D4A43DDB61 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Working towards a new EAT draft for Singapore, I=E2=80=99ve = created this pull request to address this issue on debug state.

    The sort of review I=E2=80=99m looking = for is:
      - Does this work for Intel CPUs / = SoCs
      - Does this work for Arm CPUs / = SoCs
      - Does this work for xxx CPUs / = SoCs
     
    I know we have Arm = and Intel people heavily participating here. :-)

    LL

    = --Apple-Mail=_B4778EBE-633F-48CB-8CC4-52D4A43DDB61-- From nobody Sat Oct 12 13:59:35 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7BC81200B2 for ; Sat, 12 Oct 2019 13:59:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.436 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.436 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_SBL_CSS=3.335, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B7taf6wBY8WG for ; Sat, 12 Oct 2019 13:59:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [IPv6:2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:de77]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5081512006A for ; Sat, 12 Oct 2019 13:59:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (94-168-11-122.static.v4.ziggozakelijk.nl [94.168.11.122]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7C9B31F456; Sat, 12 Oct 2019 20:59:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id D619C834; Sat, 12 Oct 2019 22:59:26 +0200 (CEST) From: Michael Richardson To: Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay cc: rats@ietf.org In-reply-to: References: <30566.1570446100@dooku.sandelman.ca> Comments: In-reply-to Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay message dated "Fri, 11 Oct 2019 10:49:10 -0400." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2019 22:59:26 +0200 Message-ID: <1463.1570913966@dooku.sandelman.ca> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] RATS use cases review X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2019 20:59:34 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay wrote: > That's fine, we can back-burner my suggestions until we a) finish > collecting all the use cases we want to include, and b) are ready to > address what claims are necessary to fulfill each use case. It's really not that I want to put stuff off! I was trying to bring it back to the list for further thoughts from others. > As a potential "end user" of attestation standards, I want RATS to be > able to answer the question of whether or not I can trust a device on > my network. And, the answer to that question will depend a lot on what > kind of claims I can get and verify from the device. But I can see that > being outside the scope of the style use case document we are writing > right now. This starts out like a well written agile User Story to me :-) Maybe the I should be writing them more like User Stories, so let me see how to work that in. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEERK+9HEcJHTJ9UqTMlUzhVv38QpAFAl2iPq4ACgkQlUzhVv38 QpAqNQf+OV6CbD6ZWAVxg3YMYMq/RU1QWt6Jusdu0nkBLeDE7OHZavlH3188kVIs AN+UyiQLgqoq1Cy+Hnm/neEOP0zP7grrzg7w+uBln7oATeD7pjb+Jb+I2W6w3cSt LO3VwC8sFsd+lZrt//7cnzCA2UefH+i7WBfglGk2N8r568aU7axJW7BgiHldbFfC ecCza80FkTC/2gX1Ys08guFcQdfN+8D2BP4JuHJL0kS4aG8LH0WpQ6WsoMRi74Eq 2BfDvH2bwex/CUpy7sgl5Rno1IxXCuK38IPLPndlKV3PFfRehJsu4BUntZUQ/SBU gRxfYExfpJtxF/o9zY64UklQpOiKQg== =gzXu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Sat Oct 12 15:59:34 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FDF91200B4 for ; Sat, 12 Oct 2019 15:59:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ItkhwvcjuSZa for ; Sat, 12 Oct 2019 15:59:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p3plsmtpa12-04.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa12-04.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [68.178.252.233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 91C2E1200B8 for ; Sat, 12 Oct 2019 15:59:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.196.0.102] ([45.56.150.148]) by :SMTPAUTH: with ESMTPA id JQMEiPlbR450OJQMEiMU4D; Sat, 12 Oct 2019 15:59:30 -0700 From: Laurence Lundblade Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_E9A6299F-5727-46B9-934E-F97382C1768A" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2019 15:59:29 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: Michael Richardson , rats@ietf.org To: Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay References: <30566.1570446100@dooku.sandelman.ca> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfEA1OxoIpzPm8z/Z6/rvNnuH3dUYPcbQkjDWxuOI3o5jPxSYUoycALih5Ch1LedBpexvw0pgWmvxxxdWpvENP/ny8u17SN/cQEHCWPyelKZSI+mYdrYH 9pgQ6VTljAn/M1bo69afJoP3jwph8LEkFOxMFEyPFbZzc7CgZf2pGzWGi7zkT5+UY0L+Y+dlElByEuV/D8woUx6QobTCIo7C1/tF/Djin/FjbNBj6x3SkWsu Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] Claims for to device trust (was Re: RATS use cases review) X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Oct 2019 22:59:34 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_E9A6299F-5727-46B9-934E-F97382C1768A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On Oct 11, 2019, at 7:49 AM, Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay = wrote: >=20 > As a potential "end user" of attestation standards, I want RATS to be = able to answer the question of whether or not I can trust a device on my = network. And, the answer to that question will depend a lot on what kind = of claims I can get and verify from the device. But I can see that being = outside the scope of the style use case document we are writing right = now.=20 Yes, outside of the use case document, but not outside the EAT draft = . The claims in it = now that I think relate to device trust are: OEM =E2=80=94 who made the device, the chip, sub modules? Boot and debug state =E2=80=94 is it in a operationally secure mode? = (Also see new PR=C2=A0 for = this one) I=E2=80=99m tracking proposed new claims as issues in GitHub labeled = =E2=80=9Cnew claim=E2=80=9D = . =46rom the issues list these seem related: Software measurement and/or integrity Software inventory, particularly version compared to a known-good-values = list of the latest security patched SW What else? LL --Apple-Mail=_E9A6299F-5727-46B9-934E-F97382C1768A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 On = Oct 11, 2019, at 7:49 AM, Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay <jmfmckay@gmail.com> = wrote:

    As a potential "end user" of = attestation standards, I want RATS to be able to answer the question of = whether or not I can trust a device on my network. And, the answer to = that question will depend a lot on what kind of claims I can get and = verify from the device. But I can see that being outside the scope of = the style use case document we are writing right = now. 

    Yes, = outside of the use case document, but not outside the EAT= draft. The claims in it now that I think relate to device trust = are:
    • OEM =E2=80=94 who made the = device, the chip, sub modules?
    • Boot and debug state = =E2=80=94 is it in a operationally secure mode? (Also see new = PR for this one)

    I=E2=80=99m tracking proposed new claims = as issues in GitHub labeled =E2=80=9Cnew = claim=E2=80=9D. =46rom the issues list these seem = related:
    • Software measurement = and/or integrity
    • Software inventory, particularly = version compared to a known-good-values list of the latest security = patched SW

    What = else?

    LL






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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Based on your feedback in the Doodle poll we have selected the 17th, 18th a= nd 19th Feb. 2020. Matthias made a room reservation and we will have to do some planning. Plea= se put this date in your calendar. Ciao Hannes From: Hannes Tschofenig Sent: Donnerstag, 3. Oktober 2019 12:35 To: suit@ietf.org; teep ; rats@ietf.org Cc: Matthias Waehlisch Subject: Tutorial & Hackathon Hi all, Based on feedback and room availability we have setup a Doodle poll with tw= o dates for the combined tutorial/hackathon event in February 2020 covering= topics of SUIT, TEEP and RATS. As mentioned earlier, the venue is in Berlin (Wilhelmstra=DFe 67, to be mor= e precisely). Here is the poll: https://doodle.com/poll/2sbd6v6h3wzah39u Please respond as soon as possible. Ciao Hannes & Matthias IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in = any medium. Thank you. --_000_VI1PR08MB53607436087B7AACA1928ECBFA900VI1PR08MB5360eurp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Based on your feed= back in the Doodle poll we have selected the 17th, 18th and 19th Feb. 2020.

    Matthias made a ro= om reservation and we will have to do some planning. Please put this date i= n your calendar.

     

    Ciao

    Hannes

     

    From: Hannes Tschofenig
    Sent: Donnerstag, 3.     Oktober 2019 12:35<= br> To: suit@ietf.org; teep <teep@ietf.org>; rats@ietf.org
    Cc: Matthias Waehlisch <m.waehlisch@fu-berlin.de>
    Subject: Tutorial & Hackathon

     

    Hi all,

     

    Based on feedback and room availability we have setu= p a Doodle poll with two dates for the combined tutorial/hackathon event in= February 2020 covering topics of SUIT, TEEP and RATS.

    As mentioned earlier, the venue is in Berlin (Wil= helmstra=DFe 67, to be more precisely).

     

    Here is the poll:

    https://doodle.com/poll/2sbd6v6h3wzah39u

     

    Please respond as soon as possible.

     

    Ciao

    Hannes & Matthias

     

    IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you. --_000_VI1PR08MB53607436087B7AACA1928ECBFA900VI1PR08MB5360eurp_-- From nobody Mon Oct 14 16:01:11 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFDD61208A7 for ; Mon, 14 Oct 2019 16:01:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=microsoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B3R0pycPRqUa for ; Mon, 14 Oct 2019 16:01:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from NAM04-CO1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-co1nam04on0708.outbound.protection.outlook.com [IPv6:2a01:111:f400:fe4d::708]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B2190120894 for ; 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Mon, 14 Oct 2019 23:01:04 +0000 From: Dave Thaler To: "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Rats] Use case -> architecture document Thread-Index: AQHVfpUq2vNYZxzKzkGPZFkm3ao0cadSM9uAgAAwqYCAABSIAIAACXkAgAAPgoCACDU2sA== Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 23:01:04 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20191009145006.r2pjsoo6jxirah64@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <9379d880-2b7e-6657-c547-b37bb7a9e466@sit.fraunhofer.de> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: msip_labels: MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Enabled=True; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_SiteId=72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Owner=dthaler@ntdev.microsoft.com; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_SetDate=2019-10-14T23:01:03.1757429Z; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Name=General; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Application=Microsoft Azure Information Protection; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_ActionId=7bcc303b-d1e6-4848-9358-f1c22ddbffcb; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:MWHPR21MB0143; H:MWHPR21MB0784.namprd21.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; A:1; MX:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: microsoft.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: +gBcLLhUNUJq5D4vFSSqCZ7ys4MTk5x6+FfwWZAX/U9bWkw3FhfikBIa+dWUdm1OmM5gFCZ/ZiEcJd3IKCV8CG/YSAIta0lA/Uj7eZctbLRBaypvTwwRJ+D2N5nnxi7yu7vSQEsULScBZIlzuCxZm1bODbDm5Ozk/j2kA/mAneDlnOs5PxLwft+es7RQI/RpgyQ8m2zVlL2G4hJ3aQMpENdAYOPqNJcaDzQrBTbVJ8c1RjwC9MisyvEdK4HsK3rFl4a3t8d7kgy1KFBYfSAjeBRycXMPcdAVRJ5vDBr070TUyP0zHyvfdFU2BiWCyq0pmw6qA4KosjdfrVS5T4bRibiLzIjcseO4cbPYn9J4t/zsOjAkbKJeXMZirT1KtIO2TiSkw3olVd+pPTO6SDJ2ZtoGmrJ+NabK5UUzgoBXonw= x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 587eeea4-59d8-47f5-3d6a-08d750fa63ff X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 14 Oct 2019 23:01:04.4712 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: zZ9T7Vvzk0d8pMrKXM09w073CW6L26Urec0mxmKwXkHjT8UV0Mz9fGqn1I6EFqLpX5MUgS9LXgc0wjzmOZ+b1O/5zBDVqD73+fl03TQXPhs= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MWHPR21MB0143 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Use case -> architecture document X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 23:01:09 -0000 W+KApl0gDQo+IElmIHRoZSBnb2FsIGZvciBzZXJ2aWNlIHByb3ZpZGVycyBhbmQgb3RoZXJzIGlz IHRvIHVzZSB0aGlzIHRlY2hub2xvZ3kgDQo+IChhcyBpcyBteSBnb2FsKSwgd2UgbmVlZCB0byBt YWtlIGl0IHNvbWV0aGluZyB0aGF0IGlzIGFjY2Vzc2libGUgdG8gDQo+IG1hbnkuwqAgVGhlIGRl dmVsb3BlcnMgYXQgbWFueSBvcmdhbml6YXRpb25zIHdpbGwgdXNlIGNyeXB0byBsaWJyYXJpZXMs IA0KPiBidXQgd2lsbCBub3QgbmVjZXNzYXJpbHkgYmUgc2VjdXJpdHkgcGVvcGxlLsKgIFRoZXkg d2lsbCBiZSBzdGFydGluZyBmcm9tIA0KPiBhIHBvaW50IHdoZXJlIHRoZXkgZG8gbm90IGhhdmUg c2VjdXJpdHkgc3BlY2lmaWMgbGFuZ3VhZ2Ugbm9yIHRoaXMgdmVyeSANCj4gc3BlY2lmaWMgc2V0 IG9mIHRlcm1zIHRoYXQgaXMgYmVpbmcgZGVmaW5lZC7CoCBUaGUgc2ltcGxlciB3ZSBjYW4ga2Vl cCANCj4gaXQsIHRoZSBiZXR0ZXIgdG8gZ2FpbiB3aWRlciBhZG9wdGlvbi4NCj4gDQo+IEkgdGhp bmsgaWYgd2Ugc3RlcCBiYWNrIGFuZCBzZWUgd2hhdCBEYXZlIGRvZXMgd2l0aCB0aGUgZG9jdW1l bnQgdG8gDQo+IGRlZmluZSB0aGUgYXJjaGl0ZWN0dXJhbCBwYXR0ZXJucywgdGhlbiB3ZSBjYW4g ZGVjaWRlIGhvdyB3ZSBtZXJnZSANCj4gY29udGVudCB3aXRoIHJlYWRhYmlsaXR5IGFzIGEgZ29h bC4NCj4gDQo+IEJlc3QgcmVnYXJkcywNCj4gS2F0aGxlZW4NClvigKZdDQoNCkFzIHJlcXVlc3Rl ZCwgSSBoYXZlIHdyaXR0ZW4gYSBkb2N1bWVudCBmb3IgdGhlIFdHIHRvIGNvbnNpZGVyLCB0aGF0 DQppbmNsdWRlcyBteSBhcmNoaXRlY3R1cmFsIHBhdHRlcm5zIHdvcmssIHBsdXMgc29tZSBjb250 ZW50IHB1bGxlZCBmcm9tDQpvdGhlcnMnIGRvY3MuICBJdCdzIG5vdCBjb21wbGV0ZSAoaS5lLiwg c29tZSBzdHVmZiBpcyBub3QgY292ZXJlZCksIGJ1dCBJIGRvDQpob3BlIGl0J3MgcmVhZGFibGUg YnkgYSBnZW5lcmFsIGF1ZGllbmNlLg0KDQpCZXNpZGVzIHNvbWUgdG9waWNzIEkganVzdCBkaWRu J3QgZ2V0IHRvLCBJIG9taXR0ZWQgc29tZSBvdGhlciB0b3BpY3MgZWl0aGVyDQpiZWNhdXNlIEkg d2FzIGludGVudGlvbmFsbHkgdHJ5aW5nIHRvIHJlZHVjZSB0aGUgbnVtYmVyIG9mIHRlcm1zIG5l ZWRlZCB0bw0KdW5kZXJzdGFuZCB0aGUgZG9jLCBvciBiZWNhdXNlIEkgZGlkbid0IHVuZGVyc3Rh bmQgdGhlIGNvbnRlbnQgZW5vdWdoIHRvDQprbm93IGhvdyB0byByZXBocmFzZSBpdCBpbiBtb3Jl IGFjY2Vzc2libGUgdGVybXMsIG9yIGJlY2F1c2UgSSBhY3R1YWxseSBkaXNhZ3JlZWQNCndpdGgg aXQgYW5kIHNvIHdhbnRlZCB0byBwdW50IHRoYXQgZGlzY3Vzc2lvbiB1bnRpbCBhZnRlciBwZW9w bGUgY291bGQNCnNlZSB0aGUgZGlyZWN0aW9uIEkgd2FzIGdvaW5nIDopDQoNCkkgd2lsbCBwb3N0 IGEgLTAwIHNob3J0bHkgYW5kIHRoZW4geW91IGNhbiBhbGwgcmV2aWV3IGl0IGFuZCBob3BlZnVs bHkgZmlndXJlDQpvdXQgd2hhdCBwYXRoIGZvcndhcmQgdGhlIFdHIHdvdWxkIGxpa2UgdG8gdGFr ZS4NCg0KRGF2ZQ0K From nobody Tue Oct 15 08:45:17 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A811120807 for ; 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Tue, 15 Oct 2019 15:45:01 +0000 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sch=F6nw=E4lder=2C_J=FCrgen?= To: Dave Thaler CC: "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Rats] Use case -> architecture document Thread-Index: AQHVfpUtedcuT2wbS0SCyHTQ7+elcqdSM9uAgAAwqYCAABSIAIAACXkAgAAPgoCACDU2sIABGpkA Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 15:45:01 +0000 Message-ID: <20191015154500.ruv2ie36hsxfb3qq@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> References: <20191009145006.r2pjsoo6jxirah64@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <9379d880-2b7e-6657-c547-b37bb7a9e466@sit.fraunhofer.de> In-Reply-To: Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sch=F6nw=E4lder=2C_J=FCrgen?= Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-clientproxiedby: AM0PR0102CA0039.eurprd01.prod.exchangelabs.com (2603:10a6:208::16) To AM4P190MB0129.EURP190.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:200:5f::17) authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de; x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-originating-ip: [2001:638:709:5::7] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 25303e1d-6081-466c-216f-08d75186a3f4 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: AM4P190MB0130: x-ms-exchange-purlcount: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:10000; 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charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <86958A662D30144EB6C8D4C2F573BFA7@EURP190.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: jacobs-university.de X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 25303e1d-6081-466c-216f-08d75186a3f4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 15 Oct 2019 15:45:01.6756 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: f78e973e-5c0b-4ab8-bbd7-9887c95a8ebd X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 4Dx+0b/0rd5pSWxpkzgWkbtC8hqakrP1lehTlfCowZrn2GhI0CrwKaKh+8rYEjtTZ5vnoa9yN757IWm0U26nTUi44mWjaq7EEkkHJ5glpIY= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM4P190MB0130 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Use case -> architecture document X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 15:45:15 -0000 On Mon, Oct 14, 2019 at 11:01:04PM +0000, Dave Thaler wrote: >=20 > As requested, I have written a document for the WG to consider, that > includes my architectural patterns work, plus some content pulled from > others' docs. It's not complete (i.e., some stuff is not covered), but I= do > hope it's readable by a general audience. > This document is well readable and the use case examples seem to be about right (although it is not entirely clear for all of them how the architecture supports them). Dave's document defines fewer terms compared to Henk's document and I assume the WG needs to decide what the set of terms is that should be defined in the WG's architecture document. Dave takes a minimalist approach, but then he introduces some terms later on in the document (e.g., Endorsement) that may actually belong into the terminology section. If an Endorsement is a statement, why is it defined under Conceptual Messages? I assume messages may carry endorsements. Perhaps the section title "Conceptual Messages" is a bit misleading? Henk's document uses the term 'claim' (which does not really show up in Dave's document), as a superclass, i.e., Endorsements and Evidence are all forms of Claims (instead of 'Conceptual Messages'). Perhaps Dave's 'statements' used informally in the 'Conceptual Messages' section are Henk's 'claims' and we need to pick a term and then change the section title to 'Types of Claims' or 'Types of Statements' or something like that and we likely want to define the concept of a 'Claim' or 'Statement'. Henk's architecture discusses 'Attestation Principles' that are not in Dave's proposal. I guess the WG needs to decide whether to include them or not. Are these important for understanding or guiding the RATS work? I also like to mention that there are research papers where the remote attestation process is described more in the form of a challenge response interaction, where the verifier sends a specific challenge to a device and the device returns a response that is than evaluated by the verifier. An example is "compute a hash over certain memory areas within a certain time limit" and then the device returns the result and the verifier checks whether it is what is expected. The time limit is used to control that an infected device can't reasonably forward the challenge to obtain an answer from an unaffected device that is then relayed back to the verifier. The question is whether the architecture includes models where a stimuli is used to trigger the production of a certain Evidence or whether this is left out of the architectural picture on purpose. For more details, see for example (you will find a preprint if you search). /js --=20 Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Tue Oct 15 09:24:49 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E06A12012D for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2019 09:24:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vtq4sFuQheuy for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2019 09:24:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.72.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B474612010F for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2019 09:24:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (mail.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.84.171]) by mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-10) with ESMTPS id x9FGOdtN028833 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 15 Oct 2019 18:24:40 +0200 Received: from [172.20.2.249] (199.243.96.171) by mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (141.12.84.171) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.468.0; Tue, 15 Oct 2019 18:24:34 +0200 To: =?UTF-8?B?U2Now7Zud8OkbGRlciwgSsO8cmdlbg==?= , Dave Thaler CC: "rats@ietf.org" References: <20191009145006.r2pjsoo6jxirah64@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <9379d880-2b7e-6657-c547-b37bb7a9e466@sit.fraunhofer.de> <20191015154500.ruv2ie36hsxfb3qq@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> From: Henk Birkholz Message-ID: <038f111c-0a80-bbc5-dd15-67af3746513f@sit.fraunhofer.de> Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 18:24:30 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20191015154500.ruv2ie36hsxfb3qq@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [199.243.96.171] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Use case -> architecture document X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 16:24:48 -0000 Hi Jürgen, a quick reply on the most simple item (I hope): > challenge response interaction The authors decided to split solution references out of the architecture and at the moment reference interaction models are maintained here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-birkholz-rats-reference-interaction-model/ We are working on the request to move information elements that are not Claims but used in the transfer protocols to this I-D, too. There is also running code as a "proof of concept on freshness & veracity" for the nonce-based handshake to enable some hand-on experience: > https://github.com/fraunhofersit/charra The next steps are to include more interaction are to include additional interaction models for DICE, DAA & TUDA (and corresponding minimal sets of elements for network protocols). Viele Grüße, Henk On 15.10.19 17:45, Schönwälder, Jürgen wrote: > On Mon, Oct 14, 2019 at 11:01:04PM +0000, Dave Thaler wrote: >> >> As requested, I have written a document for the WG to consider, that >> includes my architectural patterns work, plus some content pulled from >> others' docs. It's not complete (i.e., some stuff is not covered), but I do >> hope it's readable by a general audience. >> > > This document is well readable and the use case examples seem to be > about right (although it is not entirely clear for all of them how the > architecture supports them). Dave's document defines fewer terms > compared to Henk's document and I assume the WG needs to decide what > the set of terms is that should be defined in the WG's architecture > document. > > Dave takes a minimalist approach, but then he introduces some terms > later on in the document (e.g., Endorsement) that may actually belong > into the terminology section. > > If an Endorsement is a statement, why is it defined under Conceptual > Messages? I assume messages may carry endorsements. Perhaps the > section title "Conceptual Messages" is a bit misleading? Henk's > document uses the term 'claim' (which does not really show up in > Dave's document), as a superclass, i.e., Endorsements and Evidence are > all forms of Claims (instead of 'Conceptual Messages'). Perhaps Dave's > 'statements' used informally in the 'Conceptual Messages' section are > Henk's 'claims' and we need to pick a term and then change the section > title to 'Types of Claims' or 'Types of Statements' or something like > that and we likely want to define the concept of a 'Claim' or > 'Statement'. > > Henk's architecture discusses 'Attestation Principles' that are not in > Dave's proposal. I guess the WG needs to decide whether to include > them or not. Are these important for understanding or guiding the RATS > work? > > I also like to mention that there are research papers where the remote > attestation process is described more in the form of a challenge > response interaction, where the verifier sends a specific challenge to > a device and the device returns a response that is than evaluated by > the verifier. An example is "compute a hash over certain memory areas > within a certain time limit" and then the device returns the result > and the verifier checks whether it is what is expected. The time > limit is used to control that an infected device can't reasonably > forward the challenge to obtain an answer from an unaffected device > that is then relayed back to the verifier. The question is whether the > architecture includes models where a stimuli is used to trigger the > production of a certain Evidence or whether this is left out of the > architectural picture on purpose. For more details, see for example > (you will find a preprint if you search). > > /js > > From nobody Tue Oct 15 09:34:25 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 526E11201E5 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2019 09:34:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nsMebTETZkNF for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2019 09:34:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.72.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0B56B120803 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2019 09:34:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (mail.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.84.171]) by mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-10) with ESMTPS id x9FGYEOQ029098 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 15 Oct 2019 18:34:15 +0200 Received: from [192.168.43.221] (80.187.108.133) by mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (141.12.84.171) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.468.0; Tue, 15 Oct 2019 18:34:08 +0200 To: =?UTF-8?B?U2Now7Zud8OkbGRlciwgSsO8cmdlbg==?= , Dave Thaler CC: "rats@ietf.org" References: <20191009145006.r2pjsoo6jxirah64@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <9379d880-2b7e-6657-c547-b37bb7a9e466@sit.fraunhofer.de> <20191015154500.ruv2ie36hsxfb3qq@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> From: Henk Birkholz Message-ID: Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 18:34:04 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20191015154500.ruv2ie36hsxfb3qq@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [80.187.108.133] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Use case -> architecture document X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 16:34:23 -0000 Hi Jürgen, a quick reply on the most simple item (I hope): > challenge response interaction The authors decided to split solution references out of the architecture and at the moment reference interaction models are maintained here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-birkholz-rats-reference-interaction-model/ We are working on the request to move information elements that are not Claims but used in the transfer protocols to this I-D, too. There is also running code as a "proof of concept on freshness & veracity" for the nonce-based handshake to enable some hand-on experience:ifc > https://github.com/fraunhofersit/charra The next steps are to include more interaction are to include additional interaction models for DICE, DAA & TUDA (and corresponding minimal sets of elements for network protocols). Viele Grüße, Henk On 15.10.19 17:45, Schönwälder, Jürgen wrote: > On Mon, Oct 14, 2019 at 11:01:04PM +0000, Dave Thaler wrote: >> >> As requested, I have written a document for the WG to consider, that >> includes my architectural patterns work, plus some content pulled from >> others' docs. It's not complete (i.e., some stuff is not covered), but I do >> hope it's readable by a general audience. >> > > This document is well readable and the use case examples seem to be > about right (although it is not entirely clear for all of them how the > architecture supports them). Dave's document defines fewer terms > compared to Henk's document and I assume the WG needs to decide what > the set of terms is that should be defined in the WG's architecture > document. > > Dave takes a minimalist approach, but then he introduces some terms > later on in the document (e.g., Endorsement) that may actually belong > into the terminology section. > > If an Endorsement is a statement, why is it defined under Conceptual > Messages? I assume messages may carry endorsements. Perhaps the > section title "Conceptual Messages" is a bit misleading? Henk's > document uses the term 'claim' (which does not really show up in > Dave's document), as a superclass, i.e., Endorsements and Evidence are > all forms of Claims (instead of 'Conceptual Messages'). Perhaps Dave's > 'statements' used informally in the 'Conceptual Messages' section are > Henk's 'claims' and we need to pick a term and then change the section > title to 'Types of Claims' or 'Types of Statements' or something like > that and we likely want to define the concept of a 'Claim' or > 'Statement'. > > Henk's architecture discusses 'Attestation Principles' that are not in > Dave's proposal. I guess the WG needs to decide whether to include > them or not. Are these important for understanding or guiding the RATS > work? > > I also like to mention that there are research papers where the remote > attestation process is described more in the form of a challenge > response interaction, where the verifier sends a specific challenge to > a device and the device returns a response that is than evaluated by > the verifier. An example is "compute a hash over certain memory areas > within a certain time limit" and then the device returns the result > and the verifier checks whether it is what is expected. The time > limit is used to control that an infected device can't reasonably > forward the challenge to obtain an answer from an unaffected device > that is then relayed back to the verifier. The question is whether the > architecture includes models where a stimuli is used to trigger the > production of a certain Evidence or whether this is left out of the > architectural picture on purpose. For more details, see for example > (you will find a preprint if you search). > > /js > > From nobody Tue Oct 15 10:54:24 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C478B120856 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2019 10:53:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8d10V98r4mid for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2019 10:53:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outgoing-exchange-7.mit.edu (outgoing-exchange-7.mit.edu [18.9.28.58]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8EA931208BD for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2019 10:53:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from w92exedge4.exchange.mit.edu (W92EXEDGE4.EXCHANGE.MIT.EDU [18.7.73.16]) by outgoing-exchange-7.mit.edu (8.14.7/8.12.4) with ESMTP id x9FHqINC011903; Tue, 15 Oct 2019 13:52:24 -0400 Received: from oc11expo23.exchange.mit.edu (18.9.4.88) by w92exedge4.exchange.mit.edu (18.7.73.16) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1293.2; Tue, 15 Oct 2019 13:52:17 -0400 Received: from oc11expo23.exchange.mit.edu (18.9.4.88) by oc11expo23.exchange.mit.edu (18.9.4.88) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1365.1; Tue, 15 Oct 2019 13:52:31 -0400 Received: from oc11expo23.exchange.mit.edu ([18.9.4.88]) by oc11expo23.exchange.mit.edu ([18.9.4.88]) with mapi id 15.00.1365.000; Tue, 15 Oct 2019 13:52:30 -0400 From: Thomas Hardjono To: Henk Birkholz , =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sch=F6nw=E4lder=2C_J=FCrgen?= , Dave Thaler CC: "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Rats] Use case -> architecture document Thread-Index: AQHVfpUqjJtzD6RpnkWle2afJHWHDqdSdumAgAAwqYCAABSIAIAACXkAgAAPg4CACDdQAIABGICAgAANtAD//88sCA== Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 17:52:30 +0000 Message-ID: <1571161950747.36630@mit.edu> References: <20191009145006.r2pjsoo6jxirah64@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <9379d880-2b7e-6657-c547-b37bb7a9e466@sit.fraunhofer.de> <20191015154500.ruv2ie36hsxfb3qq@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de>, In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [199.243.96.171] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Use case -> architecture document X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 17:53:21 -0000 =0A= I would prefer for RATS WG to continue with the current architecture draft = (draft-birkholz-rats-architecture-02) and develop it further for many reaso= ns (including that so much work and time has been put into this architectur= e draft).=0A= =0A= Dave's new draft (draft-thaler-rats-architecture-00) well written, and iden= tifies a very good problem scenario being solved.=0A= =0A= One way to solve this dilemma of drafts is to use the term "profiles" for m= ore specific/narrower problems being solved.=0A= =0A= So if draft-birkholz could be the top level architecture document, then dra= ft-thaler could be a profile that addresses a given problem scenario (e.g. = network endpoint assessment).=0A= =0A= This profiling approach is also used with great success in other WGs (e.g. = OAuth WG with OAuth and UMA profile), and also in other standard organizati= ons (e.g. SAML-WebSSO is a profile of SAML-core).=0A= =0A= This would also allow other profile drafts in RATS to be developed beyond n= etwork endpoint assessment.=0A= =0A= =0A= -- thomas --=0A= From nobody Tue Oct 15 11:15:14 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04083120822 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2019 11:15:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z7S8-LUrg3EJ for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2019 11:15:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vs1-xe34.google.com (mail-vs1-xe34.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 46D6C120818 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2019 11:15:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vs1-xe34.google.com with SMTP id m22so13782991vsl.9 for ; 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Tue, 15 Oct 2019 11:15:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20191009145006.r2pjsoo6jxirah64@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <9379d880-2b7e-6657-c547-b37bb7a9e466@sit.fraunhofer.de> <20191015154500.ruv2ie36hsxfb3qq@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <1571161950747.36630@mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <1571161950747.36630@mit.edu> From: Ira McDonald Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 14:14:57 -0400 Message-ID: To: Thomas Hardjono , Ira McDonald Cc: Henk Birkholz , =?UTF-8?B?U2Now7Zud8OkbGRlciwgSsO8cmdlbg==?= , Dave Thaler , "rats@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f037640594f6f646" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Use case -> architecture document X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 18:15:13 -0000 --000000000000f037640594f6f646 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Hi Thomas, I agree with your support for continuing development of Henk's RATS architecture document. Also your suggestion of profiles. With respect to Network Endpoint Assessment, folks would benefit from reading RFC 5209 NEA Overview and Requirements: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc5209/ Which was the requirements document of the IETF NEA WG, who standardized the TCG-contributed TNC protocol suite 10 years ago. Cheers, - Ira Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) Co-Chair - TCG Trusted Mobility Solutions WG Co-Chair - TCG Metadata Access Protocol SG Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG Secretary - IEEE-ISTO Printer Working Group Co-Chair - IEEE-ISTO PWG Internet Printing Protocol WG IETF Designated Expert - IPP & Printer MIB Blue Roof Music / High North Inc http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic http://sites.google.com/site/highnorthinc mailto: blueroofmusic@gmail.com PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839 906-494-2434 On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 1:54 PM Thomas Hardjono wrote: > > I would prefer for RATS WG to continue with the current architecture draft > (draft-birkholz-rats-architecture-02) and develop it further for many > reasons (including that so much work and time has been put into this > architecture draft). > > Dave's new draft (draft-thaler-rats-architecture-00) well written, and > identifies a very good problem scenario being solved. > > One way to solve this dilemma of drafts is to use the term "profiles" for > more specific/narrower problems being solved. > > So if draft-birkholz could be the top level architecture document, then > draft-thaler could be a profile that addresses a given problem scenario > (e.g. network endpoint assessment). > > This profiling approach is also used with great success in other WGs (e.g. > OAuth WG with OAuth and UMA profile), and also in other standard > organizations (e.g. SAML-WebSSO is a profile of SAML-core). > > This would also allow other profile drafts in RATS to be developed beyond > network endpoint assessment. > > > -- thomas -- > > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > --000000000000f037640594f6f646 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Hi Thomas,

    I agree with your= support for continuing development of Henk's RATS architecture
    document.=C2=A0 Also your suggestion of profiles.

    With respect to Network Endpoint Assessment, folks would benefit from re= ading
    RFC 5209 NEA Overview and Requirements:


    Which was the requi= rements document of the IETF NEA WG, who standardized
    the TC= G-contributed TNC protocol suite 10 years ago.

    Che= ers,
    - Ira



    =
    Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)
    Co-Chair -= TCG Trusted Mobility Solutions WG
    Co-Chair - TCG Metadata Access= Protocol SG
    Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printi= ng WG
    Secretary - IEEE-ISTO Printer Working Group
    Co-Chair - IEEE-IST= O PWG Internet Printing Protocol WG
    IETF Designated Expert - IPP & P= rinter MIB
    Blue Roof Music / High North Inc
    http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic
    http://sites.google.com/site/highnorthinc
    mailto: blueroofmusic@gmail.com
    PO Box 221=C2=A0 Grand Marais, MI 49839=C2=A0 906-494-2434

    <= /div>


    On Tue, Oct = 15, 2019 at 1:54 PM Thomas Hardjono <hardjono@mit.edu> wrote:

    I would prefer for RATS WG to continue with the current architecture draft = (draft-birkholz-rats-architecture-02) and develop it further for many reaso= ns (including that so much work and time has been put into this architectur= e draft).

    Dave's new draft (draft-thaler-rats-architecture-00) well written, and = identifies a very good problem scenario being solved.

    One way to solve this dilemma of drafts is to use the term "profiles&q= uot; for more specific/narrower problems being solved.

    So if draft-birkholz could be the top level architecture document, then dra= ft-thaler could be a profile that addresses a given problem scenario (e.g. = network endpoint assessment).

    This profiling approach is also used with great success in other WGs (e.g. = OAuth WG with OAuth and UMA profile), and also in other standard organizati= ons (e.g. SAML-WebSSO is a profile of SAML-core).

    This would also allow other profile drafts in RATS to be developed beyond n= etwork endpoint assessment.


    -- thomas --

    _______________________________________________
    RATS mailing list
    RATS@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
    --000000000000f037640594f6f646-- From nobody Tue Oct 15 12:56:09 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21AEC120892 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2019 12:56:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pBO8boaV33tZ for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2019 12:56:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from outgoing-exchange-1.mit.edu (outgoing-exchange-1.mit.edu [18.9.28.15]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with 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AQHVg5EO9kgLwxkbIES2Rm4mTo08gw== Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 19:55:12 +0000 Message-ID: <1571169312645.46550@mit.edu> References: , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [199.243.96.171] Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="_004_157116931264546550mitedu_"; type="multipart/alternative" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] =?utf-8?q?Question_about_WG_Procedure_--_Re=3A__=E7=AD=94?= =?utf-8?q?=E5=A4=8D=3A__Use_case_-=3E_architecture_document?= X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 19:56:07 -0000 --_004_157116931264546550mitedu_ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_157116931264546550mitedu_" --_000_157116931264546550mitedu_ Content-Type: text/plain; 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PsB/VXfpyDfveR0Phfk63VOvbw58LQAEUwQUxmRoHRccB74yHPjaAOgrwzHXEMeBAAccgJw4OA50 gAMOQB1gnsvqOOAA5GTAcaADHHAA6gDzXFbHAQcgJwOOAx3ggANQB5jnsjoONAGQNmreVpETtYAr rVWQG8rKX+97n+C3ATmvnmdN6n6JjvfoF47nOdFwHGgLB5oASBHElW+IX2219ky6z0rn4KrttvDQ pSlgDjQBkHpfPjVmFbELjgOOA61wwI2BnIg4DnSAAw5AHWCey+o44ADkZMBxoAMccADqAPNcVscB ByAnA44DHeCAA1AHmOeyOg44ADkZcBzoAAccgDrAPJfVccAByMmA40AHOOAA1AHmuayOA/8PTnaa cLvCqyMAAAAASUVORK5CYII= --_004_359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC01B3489497marathon_-- From nobody Tue Oct 15 18:53:10 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3188120819; Tue, 15 Oct 2019 18:53:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ktqyw2koa1sb; Tue, 15 Oct 2019 18:53:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1F3D9120848; Tue, 15 Oct 2019 18:53:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LHREML711-CAH.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.107]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id F3D0A8A5DEECE6FB63A7; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 02:53:01 +0100 (IST) Received: from DGGEMM421-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.1.198.38) by LHREML711-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.34) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 02:53:01 +0100 Received: from DGGEMM511-MBX.china.huawei.com ([169.254.1.129]) by dggemm421-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.1.198.38]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 09:52:57 +0800 From: "Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)" To: "draft-birkholz-rats-architecture.authors@ietf.org" CC: "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: my previous comments of the draft://[Rats] New RATS Architecture document Thread-Index: AdWDxF01HX9gegbDTkeMJRlw5ltfvQ== Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 01:52:56 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.134.159.76] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] my previous comments of the draft:// New RATS Architecture document X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 01:53:08 -0000 SGkgYXV0aG9ycywNClBsZWFzZSBjb25zaWRlciBteSBiZWxvdyBjb21tZW50cyBvbmUgbW9udGgg 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IG5vdyAtIHRoaXMgDQp3aWxsIGJlIG1vcmUgZWxhYm9yYXRlZCBvbiBpbiBmdXR1cmUgc2VjdGlv biBvZiB0aGUgYXJjaGl0ZWN0dXJlKS4NCg0KDQpWaWVsZSBHcsO8w59lLA0KDQpIZW5rDQoNCg0K DQoNCg0KDQpfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0K UkFUUyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNClJBVFNAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21h aWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vcmF0cw0K From nobody Tue Oct 15 20:19:49 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7253512084C for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2019 20:19:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i2CtzenaN6cR for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2019 20:19:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p3plsmtpa11-02.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa11-02.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [68.178.252.103]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A9E10120848 for ; Tue, 15 Oct 2019 20:19:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.76] ([76.167.193.86]) by :SMTPAUTH: with ESMTPA id KZqii9At09tmPKZqjiubW0; Tue, 15 Oct 2019 20:19:46 -0700 From: Laurence Lundblade Message-Id: <512A0FF5-48C8-40E5-B6FB-B4EB91EE7F22@island-resort.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D17ED98C-F5D6-48AF-98A9-BF0ED78ABEBE" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 20:19:43 -0700 In-Reply-To: <1571161950747.36630@mit.edu> Cc: Henk Birkholz , =?utf-8?B?IlNjaMO2bnfDpGxkZXIsIErDvHJnZW4i?= , Dave Thaler , "rats@ietf.org" To: Thomas Hardjono References: <20191009145006.r2pjsoo6jxirah64@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <9379d880-2b7e-6657-c547-b37bb7a9e466@sit.fraunhofer.de> <20191015154500.ruv2ie36hsxfb3qq@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <1571161950747.36630@mit.edu> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfH7oH2RveuX2+h56BneVei63+iS8us3D5Cu2Z2K7bwpuPLjTb8Er3H+8iVtibioqT3eGiLj1zk1PPKiTUeC+c63+crXZLs/cEr3/7tQEY9hVHkrpxnGI FEI8mtlHXiWA8UbdqsvTFcEkq/1fdM39IKLohN6/oyoDk9WpsflhI3srcZaLkFAhtJjU/fClXuUajcPU8fTT8L/XtFU11XV4iLNBojWfCr0x47lGkKFVKR/O clBIzcizpx6uT0+fBqMXY0KG5BfQYJZ91l46gJDGPRRoSJmSOd5Ye1c22eMZAEhxY9zcKR9FBAGmOknzqunaUNq7Dq9eEyFYimBGO54V4YkszejgyJv0qnIt LdkDReqM Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Use case -> architecture document X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 03:19:49 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_D17ED98C-F5D6-48AF-98A9-BF0ED78ABEBE Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I don=E2=80=99t see Dave=E2=80=99s draft as just network endpoint = assessment. Other use cases are mentioned and they fit into the system = described. I also don=E2=80=99t see it as particularly subordinate to = Henk=E2=80=99s architecture.=20 I don=E2=80=99t think it=E2=80=99s been made official, but a number of = us are considering profiles to be subordinates of the EAT document. They = would specify: Crypto algorithms and key sizes End-end scheme for finding the verification key Claims that are mandatory Claims that are disallowed I think this type of profile is very necessary.=20 (I=E2=80=99m not familiar with how OAuth used profiles, but have assumed = it was similar to what I just described) LL > On Oct 15, 2019, at 10:52 AM, Thomas Hardjono = wrote: >=20 >=20 > I would prefer for RATS WG to continue with the current architecture = draft (draft-birkholz-rats-architecture-02) and develop it further for = many reasons (including that so much work and time has been put into = this architecture draft). >=20 > Dave's new draft (draft-thaler-rats-architecture-00) well written, and = identifies a very good problem scenario being solved. >=20 > One way to solve this dilemma of drafts is to use the term "profiles" = for more specific/narrower problems being solved. >=20 > So if draft-birkholz could be the top level architecture document, = then draft-thaler could be a profile that addresses a given problem = scenario (e.g. network endpoint assessment). >=20 > This profiling approach is also used with great success in other WGs = (e.g. OAuth WG with OAuth and UMA profile), and also in other standard = organizations (e.g. SAML-WebSSO is a profile of SAML-core). >=20 > This would also allow other profile drafts in RATS to be developed = beyond network endpoint assessment. >=20 >=20 > -- thomas -- >=20 > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats >=20 --Apple-Mail=_D17ED98C-F5D6-48AF-98A9-BF0ED78ABEBE Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 I = don=E2=80=99t see Dave=E2=80=99s draft as just network endpoint = assessment. Other use cases are mentioned and they fit into the system = described. I also don=E2=80=99t see it as particularly subordinate to = Henk=E2=80=99s architecture. 


    I = don=E2=80=99t think it=E2=80=99s been made official, but a number of us = are considering profiles to be subordinates of the EAT document. They = would specify:
    • Crypto algorithms and key sizes
    • End-end = scheme for finding the verification key
    • Claims that = are mandatory
    • Claims that are = disallowed

    I= think this type of profile is very necessary. 

    (I=E2=80=99m not = familiar with how OAuth used profiles, but have assumed it was similar = to what I just described)

    LL



    On Oct 15, 2019, at 10:52 AM, Thomas Hardjono = <hardjono@mit.edu> wrote:


    I would prefer for RATS WG to continue with the current = architecture draft (draft-birkholz-rats-architecture-02) and develop it = further for many reasons (including that so much work and time has been = put into this architecture draft).

    Dave's = new draft (draft-thaler-rats-architecture-00) well written, and = identifies a very good problem scenario being solved.

    One way to solve this dilemma of drafts is to use the term = "profiles" for more specific/narrower problems being solved.

    So if draft-birkholz could be the top level = architecture document, then draft-thaler could be a profile that = addresses a given problem scenario (e.g. network endpoint = assessment).

    This profiling approach is = also used with great success in other WGs (e.g. OAuth WG with OAuth and = UMA profile), and also in other standard organizations (e.g. SAML-WebSSO = is a profile of SAML-core).

    This would also = allow other profile drafts in RATS to be developed beyond network = endpoint assessment.


    -- = thomas --

    _______________________________________________
    RATS mailing list
    RATS@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats


    = --Apple-Mail=_D17ED98C-F5D6-48AF-98A9-BF0ED78ABEBE-- From nobody Wed Oct 16 05:03:44 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAA10120921 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 05:03:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.436 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.436 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_SBL_CSS=3.335, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JGnAQQU6nI1u for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 05:03:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [IPv6:2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:de77]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1F98D12091B for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 05:03:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (dhcp-25-21.mtg.ripe.net [193.0.25.21]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 04BAC1F455 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 12:03:32 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 9F681FEE; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 14:04:24 +0200 (CEST) From: Michael Richardson To: "rats\@ietf.org" In-reply-to: References: <20191009145006.r2pjsoo6jxirah64@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <9379d880-2b7e-6657-c547-b37bb7a9e466@sit.fraunhofer.de> Comments: In-reply-to Dave Thaler message dated "Mon, 14 Oct 2019 23:01:04 -0000." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 14:04:24 +0200 Message-ID: <18312.1571227464@dooku.sandelman.ca> Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] draft-thaler-rats-architecture (was Re: Use case -> architecture document) X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 12:03:43 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you for the very well written draft. This document ably demonstrates why keeping you on the IAB always made sense. While I can see that you include use cases into the document, it was not "some small additions" to the use case document. I'm not complaining! It's a new document and it should be evaluated like that. I found the selected use cases to be at times difficult to distinguish. I think that the existence of the 2+ architectual models should be introduc= ed earlier, and that it is worth including an explanation in each use case as = to how they make use of the passport/background-check model. {As a non-RATS thought: it occurs to me that many of the meat-space things that use background checks would be better off with a passport model. However the cost of creating unforgeable passports has historically been t= oo high. The cost to create a counterfeit medical or law diploma has been assumed to be higher than it really is. Or another analogy is that passports are certificates and background checks are OCSP...} This document does not clearly lead me to knowing what the form the technology should be. I might be led to believe that there is an architectual requirement to do everything in PKIX certificate extensions, while I think that we are really heading towards CWT/JWT. While the two architecture workflows you include overlap with draft-birkholz-rats-architecture-02's figure 1, I think we need to work on our diagrams a bit. I'm not fond of the word "Attestee", as correct as it might be in some case= s. Neither document uses it, which makes me happy. It's too easily confused with Attester (by people with poor eyesight, auto-correctors, and non-English speakers). I still find the terms Attester and Verifier confusing. I think that when the Verifier signs/creates the Attestation Results, that this is an act of Attestation, and this the Verifier is the Attester. draft-birkholz-rats-architecture uses this term Computing Environment, which I don't think works well, but I don't have a better suggestion. I know that there is a TCG meeting in Toronto this week (probably occuring = as I type from Rotterdam). Perhaps some appropriate beverages will lead to rough consensus. =2D-=20 ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh network= s [=20 ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect= [=20 ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [=20 =09 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEyBAEBCAAdFiEERK+9HEcJHTJ9UqTMlUzhVv38QpAFAl2nB0gACgkQlUzhVv38 QpBWMQf41WCr6U3P00838omuHCK7Ou08+t4ZTqWRDGnPCRsJ2IPa4GSM767whxvm FJP7mnVMrTR4/CA0i1AGawLnMgn5nyjGBWIXMVO3vCawdQnNGWCy41jYmtHaNu1L NuzigXwrYKagyCKzunksGPvgDKTVWRE/sHTAtCuTTk5/u7foZ6hFAe1lBlazmihW DnjmNu9V88ySk+NgToLSo69y1J5F+DJNBgSUyikQHRzUzY6EkWjSC6ykaCYNCLeI VhpdVnOC5bVnYmc5Py7dLst0mONY+4jnVwS4bRb7jUftcwdDyTHcdZ4kduyXyQPr 4ziQ2c+o700UbeDQCpz6S5Sx+abj =aB9t -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed Oct 16 05:06:14 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72215120908 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 05:06:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AoTTZDxiTmO0 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 05:06:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [176.58.120.209]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8A68612023E for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 05:06:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2001:67c:64:42:5650:5f0a:e07a:7e5f]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 50D2D1F455 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 12:06:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id E688EFEE; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 14:07:02 +0200 (CEST) From: Michael Richardson To: "rats\@ietf.org" In-reply-to: <20191015154500.ruv2ie36hsxfb3qq@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> References: <20191009145006.r2pjsoo6jxirah64@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <9379d880-2b7e-6657-c547-b37bb7a9e466@sit.fraunhofer.de> <20191015154500.ruv2ie36hsxfb3qq@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Comments: In-reply-to =?us-ascii?Q?=3D=3Fiso-8859-1=3FQ=3FSch=3DF6nw=3DE4l?= =?us-ascii?Q?der=3D2C=5FJ=3DFCrgen=3F=3D?= message dated "Tue, 15 Oct 2019 15:45:01 -0000." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 14:07:02 +0200 Message-ID: <18413.1571227622@dooku.sandelman.ca> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Use case -> architecture document X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 12:06:13 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder, J=C3=BCrgen wrote: > Henk's architecture discusses 'Attestation Principles' that are not in > Dave's proposal. I guess the WG needs to decide whether to include th= em > or not. Are these important for understanding or guiding the RATS wor= k? I think that, to the extent that the architecture document includes requirements on the technical document must answer, that these principles need to be made explicit. They should be numbered as well so that we know which principle to compromise to maintain another one. > I also like to mention that there are research papers where the remote > attestation process is described more in the form of a challenge > response interaction, where the verifier sends a specific challenge to > a device and the device returns a response that is than evaluated by > the verifier. An example is "compute a hash over certain memory areas > within a certain time limit" and then the device returns the result a= nd That's an interesting thing to add. I think that this makes for some interesting additions to use cases. =2D-=20 ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh network= s [=20 ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect= [=20 ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails = [=20 =09 --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEERK+9HEcJHTJ9UqTMlUzhVv38QpAFAl2nB+YACgkQlUzhVv38 QpBw9wf/VxvsLyQmMU1E2aHHT+9u+co3Z1u6iNVUlndHxjDGBQzhCm98U3awFtQz wgzSg5U+O3TTpFZJlKkAknLvxb7P1rFVD832CoXHHIscI5+OCkYxMQrFaEYRPPVs C6BfHZbrUEri1lzXRqSJaRHKS8qQXWSWLapaCSeNlPEhZQDs5lpFkNBL5pFROd+v IWRY7ugI3/RoqhzRplCExW86LsXdghgAv370dN5u/YNpzhfsI4rb+WXHsSWrziJs v4Kd0WyQTJi+GZ05R7gm16wom65eh/8FCzTD9Eo6pSu84uUwJTRP1OC+bw4pKbZf JnOlpN2rP3nDKST4zEmoDFqxGV5qAA== =tMp1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed Oct 16 05:10:11 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E01112090F for ; 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Wed, 16 Oct 2019 12:10:02 +0000 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sch=F6nw=E4lder=2C_J=FCrgen?= To: Michael Richardson CC: "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Rats] draft-thaler-rats-architecture (was Re: Use case -> architecture document) Thread-Index: AQHVhBnNktjfhp1fcU6nr4k6eSOqaaddLRGA Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 12:10:02 +0000 Message-ID: <20191016121001.hxx6t7nil6ztbd7k@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> References: <20191009145006.r2pjsoo6jxirah64@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <9379d880-2b7e-6657-c547-b37bb7a9e466@sit.fraunhofer.de> <18312.1571227464@dooku.sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: <18312.1571227464@dooku.sandelman.ca> Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sch=F6nw=E4lder=2C_J=FCrgen?= Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-clientproxiedby: AM0PR0402CA0023.eurprd04.prod.outlook.com (2603:10a6:208:15::36) To AM4P190MB0129.EURP190.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:200:5f::17) authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de; 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SRVR:AM4P190MB0083; H:AM4P190MB0129.EURP190.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: jacobs-university.de does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: rOeKTdrDi2y4uBkAmEKDGxw6Hk848pvEr9zCndpQt5wIMFlgEHyMsqaPUWmwqtZ7PTfLhuX2DuaHoF/5aNfMAE844lw0MhyGOPbRyARa71lyqpXfFZqKkvMp3Q31bsVnpHqv5+MO1bayoKDpbCkkJp+wMXvEdqRLUASU41MJY8Rf6dYsuteuWZ38UTliGjdVmIcFeQuOIU0nz2l9gZQUWIWTKiFR4dkmhW7RoP5/K5pcdolPhz8xrGwNOT9uskwK76kWSvpbooGBF/TtYEhxQIXaOCzHGC732xrxDMEx76It1B8V/pOiXNQMaL+KMVMbErrSv1pmDH6T5fgwii+nFMVTHZWbRdB+4lHJXaBrfAkWZ30/I7cIbRqNTtp9CRXx9c5ckF/Ki4WCenAgrtoQqU3kpn4sKnCEsZJN2vFgkAvgPCZqRG+VcxywDgm3a9QUqYXWT3Oi22J8NjCPa8fq8A== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-ID: <778964C00AA2534FA738DC63F6535A50@EURP190.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: jacobs-university.de X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: b391e3ff-249f-4c74-e3b6-08d75231c5dc X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 16 Oct 2019 12:10:02.4516 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: f78e973e-5c0b-4ab8-bbd7-9887c95a8ebd X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: 6sxbuEaI8vn/iGdFCP1sG/wqz91uhZsYlGzy5r+6nTU4XwsMlsg9MX2aRuVj4Ewo9/7BPuSRTr7/nW7zTeV9kKtCBM03OV98NzSPr2Y+GfM= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM4P190MB0083 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] draft-thaler-rats-architecture (was Re: Use case -> architecture document) X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 12:10:10 -0000 On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 02:04:24PM +0200, Michael Richardson wrote: >=20 > I still find the terms Attester and Verifier confusing. >=20 > I think that when the Verifier signs/creates the Attestation Results, tha= t > this is an act of Attestation, and this the Verifier is the Attester. > This took me off as well when I started reading about RATS. :-) Henk told me that the industry has settled on somewhat confusing terms in this area and it might confuse this part of the industry if the IETF picks different terms... Not sure what is the right thing to do. /js --=20 Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany Fax: +49 421 200 3103 From nobody Wed Oct 16 07:18:50 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E2A212010D for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 07:18:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lJaS76XDDOdj for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 07:18:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x232.google.com (mail-oi1-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C252F120026 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 07:18:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x232.google.com with SMTP id w6so20110730oie.11 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 07:18:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Jnyc7QJ5JCqJulkm3Yh5AByPD3zJ4lP8+dXaZMRlP8Y=; b=kkgrubRTLnh2VjZHuiQGLuNm7xn1t62Ifz9opaZYSXb5kmh+j4ZzKUOC1mj5AJoXUc kzKtY2LBdDTYoKwIIpsB9RFMa6oEI2Vleq1HPqZ5izHnqjZjqKI1nWLTH5rQIbhHySrn /mPAN5KqMqnEEhkQ/B24vUmpnhblM8g9Y7yuQ3spu0F57LlaDP8RN1aeMGdd2nAo+l2n SimP9t1/vRfU1b1PlO1O6SB2v2mKCN2QCuXLi07eIvsx7d1xIfzST+GD2+80u17+pAgc pA1Wr9PZqnf4rH+LzVIYuj8eOQ5g/HUCTzXtezGzsehx/guA7NV2mxq+uYEU3AAddOr1 7Vdg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Jnyc7QJ5JCqJulkm3Yh5AByPD3zJ4lP8+dXaZMRlP8Y=; b=qMg6qfvXgDRJoA5EQvbTs1SHeCi3AFjZ/E1P5s8NuyPdFvfvMNp6lL1Fn2u9kngqo/ LapALnmVuQbzLbn5ek1xqQTEA0ya44JIQBTih+SA0C+JlVogqH/F51RLhnzXledjmwlG pYmwRidcJZnBMiREU9y4SdFMzh3ku7ngrBbFaRa7eWt28M1bAsIM5n4HgExLEZxGPuQ3 IdjmNlXtcqtZ275JeHhDZpPZ7XTreai3/RxjpyQdr1oxCoP/eE6DoEAwJV+usGj8H+ZL 5ZjTMAN63wABu6wfbTCaY8Grh/syYswZlfzfJVOYTFgedD/iqHEfoKOBZbwFVgFZXXr7 DQsw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWL+Aozw0v0/WyAjhasX72Pg+WDPjUiUTXrZ/3hzSt+B5CqEWz7 ENwsD0NR75hveX/lWG63T8sijFWVaPuBa+sxsQC1nb0s X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqx0DxeZEkozfS+L/0kkPdDKCVWHjLT6As7qhxYPhI3dGPyYh3YEGeYvMuEEcWHZoeUOrsdWT3zBO10asBBey6k= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:114:: with SMTP id b20mr3781008oie.114.1571235525013; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 07:18:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20191009145006.r2pjsoo6jxirah64@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <9379d880-2b7e-6657-c547-b37bb7a9e466@sit.fraunhofer.de> <20191015154500.ruv2ie36hsxfb3qq@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <18413.1571227622@dooku.sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: <18413.1571227622@dooku.sandelman.ca> From: Kathleen Moriarty Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 10:18:08 -0400 Message-ID: To: Michael Richardson Cc: "rats@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000053b5c0059507c776" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Use case -> architecture document X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 14:18:48 -0000 --00000000000053b5c0059507c776 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 8:06 AM Michael Richardson wrote: > > Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder, J=C3=BCrgen wrote: > > Henk's architecture discusses 'Attestation Principles' that are not > in > > Dave's proposal. I guess the WG needs to decide whether to include > them > > or not. Are these important for understanding or guiding the RATS > work? > > I think that, to the extent that the architecture document includes > requirements on the technical document must answer, that these principles > need to be made explicit. They should be numbered as well so that we kn= ow > which principle to compromise to maintain another one. > In a sense, Dave's document covers this idea as it does discuss the ability for 2 functions to be combined. I don't think adding a term is needed to state that though and adding a specific term for that leads to confusion. > > > I also like to mention that there are research papers where the > remote > > attestation process is described more in the form of a challenge > > response interaction, where the verifier sends a specific challenge > to > > a device and the device returns a response that is than evaluated b= y > > the verifier. An example is "compute a hash over certain memory are= as > > within a certain time limit" and then the device returns the result > and > > That's an interesting thing to add. > I think that this makes for some interesting additions to use cases. > And an architectural pattern. Best regards, Kathleen > > -- > ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh > networks [ > ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network > architect [ > ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on > rails [ > > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > --=20 Best regards, Kathleen --00000000000053b5c0059507c776 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


    =
    On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 8:06 AM Micha= el Richardson <mcr+ietf@sande= lman.ca> wrote:

    Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder, J=C3=BCrgen wrote:
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Henk's architecture discusses 'Attestation Princ= iples' that are not in
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > Dave's proposal. I guess the WG needs to decide whet= her to include them
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > or not. Are these important for understanding or guiding= the RATS work?

    I think that, to the extent that the architecture document includes
    requirements on the technical document must answer, that these principles need to be made explicit.=C2=A0 =C2=A0They should be numbered as well so th= at we know
    which principle to compromise to maintain another one.

    In a sense, Dave's document covers this idea as it does= discuss the ability for 2 functions to be combined.=C2=A0 I don't thin= k adding a term is needed to state that though and adding a specific term f= or that leads to confusion.
    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > I also like to mention that there are research papers wh= ere the remote
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > attestation process is described more in the form of a c= hallenge
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > response interaction, where the verifier sends a specifi= c challenge to
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > a device and the device returns a response that is than = evaluated by
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > the verifier. An example is "compute a hash over ce= rtain memory areas
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > within a certain time limit" and then the device re= turns the result and

    That's an interesting thing to add.
    I think that this makes for some interesting additions to use cases.

    And an architectural pattern.

    <= /div>
    Best regards,
    Kathleen
    =C2=A0

    --
    ]=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Never tell me the o= dds!=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0| ipv6 me= sh networks [
    ]=C2=A0 =C2=A0Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 | network architect=C2=A0 [
    ]=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= mcr@sandelman.ca=C2=A0 http://www.sandelman.ca/=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 |=C2=A0 =C2=A0ruby on rails=C2=A0 =C2=A0 [

    _______________________________________________
    RATS mailing list
    RATS@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats


    --

    Best regards,
    Kathleen
    --00000000000053b5c0059507c776-- From nobody Wed Oct 16 07:28:17 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5286512093D for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 07:28:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FR6VOy5-mEBX for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 07:28:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x231.google.com (mail-oi1-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6A016120934 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 07:28:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x231.google.com with SMTP id 83so20214201oii.1 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 07:28:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=tG90i/ri3N66gbV6nlXNoFvQt8bwAMzSPubOZyNhOuI=; b=VY4HJQdRSCePxh7TaqwCWOkjjtsUTMHMPgNBIUhehVdzpxQHwLMXoMBZUEBf0B21sg mLwyR3TcMhofJ6AKAttddiUWp3oFR9yiCqaJD7RqhjnUt8d9ifju+Qua4knsXNuojjFW 6nHcyjM+7fA0NAc4oDYe/Oo7B4FZ8kzy3wthiloJiJ4EOD7/XzP0tpptwtVCsvv9qtYd DsUaT9AqAF5FrNPvqesT21V7xcmJHxeMW4XDzrQmjcjO16cKjo2PJsWIwBkbqmbZ/UDc dUDHxoRsMYWtZBe9agay/LAG9HdqtY97kcx+VCGEJxHuBj3RVpyAq4A3A0EHwL6cDMMr XnGw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=tG90i/ri3N66gbV6nlXNoFvQt8bwAMzSPubOZyNhOuI=; b=lI5/dfrCKeNJu5kiACs12QXk5AslsOCPm+4TqYlnuKikfmBGbF2vJ2LHSJfWjty6LH ENuTFau1HDlykpOa6ewbv3HTt1GEc5Dwb99F/kJWdAld9p/ib7UIyNq+8Vwahi67OaIB 2QK7GL3WOhf+8poBvqJcG1tIj8BWxctNsjEg+DEUrDfuf/8K7V1PSkWtestEAb0bBUpw WmebXHJvtegOv8f1Hi3sW2FtUI6In/rQqr8c/Gpr39xIho0oFVUTg0wWsEA8QG5S+dSy k/zOv1tS4rDu37R/5F8FJ0z94iNCIwWuf5NCTeOXTOesrYJwAoQ75w3VX3lhgiWDoz3N ixPQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXR1Ub4m++VGrIu0iQxH2zMml/kD40NpykjMOAuX4cZcpm5SP4Z vDvZ7Z+R0mfl2prESz1j0QGQaPk3clVZQtwesq8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqz0hwqt8i6Pz9eEv5thpWGYOHRNFWzHt+HZm3OmObFO013h4CjLfYuZ/ph/PZXgtbgXhj4xmEO1uSRz5/F1r/U= X-Received: by 2002:aca:4744:: with SMTP id u65mr3613835oia.164.1571236092718; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 07:28:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20191009145006.r2pjsoo6jxirah64@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <9379d880-2b7e-6657-c547-b37bb7a9e466@sit.fraunhofer.de> <18312.1571227464@dooku.sandelman.ca> <20191016121001.hxx6t7nil6ztbd7k@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> In-Reply-To: <20191016121001.hxx6t7nil6ztbd7k@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> From: Kathleen Moriarty Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 10:27:36 -0400 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?B?U2Now7Zud8OkbGRlciwgSsO8cmdlbg==?= Cc: Michael Richardson , "rats@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002a3375059507e96f" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] draft-thaler-rats-architecture (was Re: Use case -> architecture document) X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 14:28:15 -0000 --0000000000002a3375059507e96f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 8:10 AM Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder, J=C3=BCrgen < J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote: > On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 02:04:24PM +0200, Michael Richardson wrote: > > > > I still find the terms Attester and Verifier confusing. > > > > I think that when the Verifier signs/creates the Attestation Results, > that > > this is an act of Attestation, and this the Verifier is the Attester. > > > > This took me off as well when I started reading about RATS. :-) Henk > told me that the industry has settled on somewhat confusing terms in > this area and it might confuse this part of the industry if the IETF > picks different terms... Not sure what is the right thing to do. > I gave a keynote at the TCG meeting yesterday and it was a very well spent day. They were receptive to learning more on the IETF and related work areas that could be of interest to the TCG and participants. As for terminology, it was stated that the terminology is confusing for them as well in their space and they'd like to see it easier to understand. This may not be the opinion of everyone that was in the room, but no one argued the point. One of the main purposes of the talk was to enhance collaboration in this area of work, and to help those in TCG understand how to engage in the IETF. Additionally, I wanted to (and still do) learn more about their other work in the area of attestation. Many of us, including TCG leadership (lunch discussion) are interested to see a clearer picture of the space painted and to reduce the chance of overlapping work. Hopefully, we will see additional TCG participants begin to review and weigh in on RATS WG items. I also hope that some more of their work may transition to this working group, but that may take some time. This could help to paint that larger picture and distill the numerous set of use cases. Best regards, Kathleen > /js > > -- > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > --=20 Best regards, Kathleen --0000000000002a3375059507e96f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


    =
    On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 8:10 AM Sch= =C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder, J=C3=BCrgen <J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
    On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 a= t 02:04:24PM +0200, Michael Richardson wrote:
    >
    > I still find the terms Attester and Verifier confusing.
    >
    > I think that when the Verifier signs/creates the Attestation Results, = that
    > this is an act of Attestation, and this the Verifier is the Attester.<= br> >

    This took me off as well when I started reading about RATS. :-) Henk
    told me that the industry has settled on somewhat confusing terms in
    this area and it might confuse this part of the industry if the IETF
    picks different terms... Not sure what is the right thing to do.

    I gave a keynote at the TCG meeting yesterday and= it was a very well spent day.=C2=A0 They were receptive to learning more o= n the IETF and related work areas that could be of interest to the TCG and = participants.=C2=A0=C2=A0

    As for terminology, it w= as stated that the terminology=C2=A0is confusing for them as well in their = space and they'd like to see it easier to=C2=A0understand.=C2=A0 This m= ay not be the opinion of everyone that was in the room, but no one argued t= he point.

    One of the main purposes of the talk was= to enhance collaboration in this area of work, and to help those in TCG un= derstand how to engage in the IETF.=C2=A0 Additionally, I wanted to (and st= ill do) learn more about their other work in the area of attestation.=C2=A0= Many of us, including TCG leadership (lunch discussion) are interested to = see a clearer picture of the space painted and to reduce the chance of over= lapping work.=C2=A0 Hopefully, we will see additional TCG participants begi= n to review and weigh in on RATS WG items.=C2=A0 I also hope that some more= of their work may transition to this working group, but that may take some= time.=C2=A0 This could help to paint that larger picture and distill the n= umerous set of use cases.

    Best regards,
    = Kathleen


    /js

    --
    Juergen Schoenwaelder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jacobs Univer= sity Bremen gGmbH
    Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Campus Ring 1 | 28= 759 Bremen | Germany
    Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<https://www.jacobs-university.de/>

    _______________________________________________
    RATS mailing list
    RATS@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats


    --

    Best regards,
    Kathleen
    --0000000000002a3375059507e96f-- From nobody Wed Oct 16 07:31:14 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86F861200FB for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 07:31:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.436 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.436 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_SBL_CSS=3.335, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5SxSI7GM2dbW for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 07:31:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay.sandelman.ca (relay.cooperix.net [IPv6:2a01:7e00::f03c:91ff:feae:de77]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C710C12004C for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 07:31:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dooku.sandelman.ca (unknown [IPv6:2001:67c:64:42:5650:5f0a:e07a:7e5f]) by relay.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 04A8F1F455; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 14:31:04 +0000 (UTC) Received: by dooku.sandelman.ca (Postfix, from userid 179) id 7AD19E8B; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 16:31:57 +0200 (CEST) From: Michael Richardson To: Kathleen Moriarty cc: "rats\@ietf.org" In-reply-to: References: <20191009145006.r2pjsoo6jxirah64@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <9379d880-2b7e-6657-c547-b37bb7a9e466@sit.fraunhofer.de> <20191015154500.ruv2ie36hsxfb3qq@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <18413.1571227622@dooku.sandelman.ca> Comments: In-reply-to Kathleen Moriarty message dated "Wed, 16 Oct 2019 10:18:08 -0400." X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.6; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 16:31:57 +0200 Message-ID: <13312.1571236317@dooku.sandelman.ca> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Use case -> architecture document X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 14:31:13 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kathleen Moriarty wrote: >> Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder, J=C3=BCrgen wrote: >> > Henk's architecture discusses 'Attestation Principles' that are not >> in >> > Dave's proposal. I guess the WG needs to decide whether to include >> them >> > or not. Are these important for understanding or guiding the RATS >> work? >> >> I think that, to the extent that the architecture document includes >> requirements on the technical document must answer, that these princ= iples >> need to be made explicit. They should be numbered as well so that = we know >> which principle to compromise to maintain another one. > In a sense, Dave's document covers this idea as it does discuss the a= bility > for 2 functions to be combined. I don't think adding a term is neede= d to > state that though and adding a specific term for that leads to > confusion. I need the architecture document to introduce terms like "freshness" and "p= rovenance" and explain how they apply in an attestation context. I need to know, if I have to compromise one or the other to satisfy a particular use case, which one is more important. {I don't claim the other document does a great job at defining those terms,= btw} =2D- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEERK+9HEcJHTJ9UqTMlUzhVv38QpAFAl2nKd0ACgkQlUzhVv38 QpDI6Af+I3WxUFIYC7t8BVXfwmsY3k+7n2QAfzqkbyl5lcgNGQel05keOZ4sZmOY OkXA263Fa8BpGAtE1zc9RWY6MDlZAeoqS2luJrs/o5s1QLJ4u33g5URiUBDvYkeS qGBW03HU+t4B0So6PRirJ72Jw0JnPRUNnFgBicMStbmjX4HA8/szvCwOer0k2ls6 c+Uc/S/lKFSizxAN5pJ6db5ZfF9nuK0q6gGtQCQnrK8pzuAQgeNvk6Nt8jwdJeTV M9K6sOQZIpsfQPthpdssoXuDShklkmvrhSulLHTFCRaN70AVZeri2FKFL+UkqWRK jCKgExE37KeAdL0OJjdm3QimngvQPA== =JqUA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed Oct 16 07:36:06 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40B9E12093E for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 07:36:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EW95fHaJwt89 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 07:36:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-x331.google.com (mail-ot1-x331.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::331]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 99C4D1208B3 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 07:35:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-x331.google.com with SMTP id 67so20340407oto.3 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 07:35:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=0k8B8D44ZhNEpq2bojltVwtEE9x0UZtpZiH8OVqGUp0=; b=dran2QVdkH6jVscws/Ma3aLUrP2ITuRWGx9MSkuUklrMuS/7zQcd1pPglY/n1CflX/ e/GA0rhgIUWwyW/ZsmHCw2u9rHPIDoQIpRoQf+3F95BO8iIXdH5leRKmbRnU1YhrlleA Xq53lAFZj3thYLihgU7N355hvByKgRzLGjLBWeGtf+KVEI3Emp9Pk2S2E7w21+0fZmvD RgwHJp8VfqrqRz77vgrBPS4LcNaBO6oclCMBTMs8yaivcewr6is6U3sr0LoBMaaM424r IYZFNutJhF5QyIc/SG0OSP8Cr7rGgCCEKmAIPI6ZUtU4MYNqpmZxrta29NqZt7SQXW9w qJwA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=0k8B8D44ZhNEpq2bojltVwtEE9x0UZtpZiH8OVqGUp0=; b=okmwXZFaN7ZvdlihWH6P/131M5/uLk3Bi+B/xzKoLBEI4AtuS+lTQJRh65/ju0cUeI xoe/HPgmic4AN35uwvtdO64ZXe8SNjLyTwiXA/2C9qAHG2qbcwr17JXgdr3fV28u6duX DKTN3py1R/UpNudT2q5/ZnyOxDZmbhh+S4IyeggUXE9XtN80Ddpg/w8WTaS6F+1IbOA8 j5p3s38StCKilanDXm9uLQpTnxzoGi5BDybWPnvijATMElwzYa2rQKJzycQLWax3Iscq UmHixBLCu/GVk2dPytv9J3DjRZC3OgVohTaviN+wXSwCHXW4FvSOpWroGp+8O1e2aDng U8XA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXBwhgvoSYuv0oBGc7DKrdrz5BD+jhZHkYP/WQ3t9xnkxCOFY4z ssSaImb0uYyyeoEnbIc4D77no/DhOu21pWjPTLA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzcXM3n96ruslgwSum8plIW8sk89u1ZFvGKq+6DLcI7gyV274spWT3NU+goqyo1w7aRlREf87b1sEHIK4Y3wSw= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6830:1685:: with SMTP id k5mr3209554otr.250.1571236557745; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 07:35:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20191009145006.r2pjsoo6jxirah64@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <9379d880-2b7e-6657-c547-b37bb7a9e466@sit.fraunhofer.de> <20191015154500.ruv2ie36hsxfb3qq@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <18413.1571227622@dooku.sandelman.ca> <13312.1571236317@dooku.sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: <13312.1571236317@dooku.sandelman.ca> From: Kathleen Moriarty Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 10:35:21 -0400 Message-ID: To: Michael Richardson Cc: "rats@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e1f3780595080436" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Use case -> architecture document X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 14:36:04 -0000 --000000000000e1f3780595080436 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 10:31 AM Michael Richardson wrote: > > Kathleen Moriarty wrote: > >> Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder, J=C3=BCrgen wrote: > >> > Henk's architecture discusses 'Attestation Principles' that are > not > >> in > >> > Dave's proposal. I guess the WG needs to decide whether to inclu= de > >> them > >> > or not. Are these important for understanding or guiding the RAT= S > >> work? > >> > >> I think that, to the extent that the architecture document include= s > >> requirements on the technical document must answer, that these > principles > >> need to be made explicit. They should be numbered as well so tha= t > we know > >> which principle to compromise to maintain another one. > > > In a sense, Dave's document covers this idea as it does discuss the > ability > > for 2 functions to be combined. I don't think adding a term is > needed to > > state that though and adding a specific term for that leads to > > confusion. > > I need the architecture document to introduce terms like "freshness" and > "provenance" > and explain how they apply in an attestation context. I need to know, if= I > have to compromise one or the other to satisfy a particular use case, whi= ch > one is more important. > Agreed, this is important. Attestations also provide origin authentication, which is the basis for provenance. Provenance just makes that origin authentication (possibly for nested components) to be possible. IMO, it's a well understood term and should be easy to add, but I'd like to see it in context of origin authentication that helps to provide provenance. It's how I talked about it yesterday. > > {I don't claim the other document does a great job at defining those > terms, btw} > Hopefully, my explanation helps toward a definition in terms used in the IETF already. Best regards, Kathleen > > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- > > > > --=20 Best regards, Kathleen --000000000000e1f3780595080436 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


    =
    On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 10:31 AM Mich= ael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sand= elman.ca> wrote:

    Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder, J=C3=BCrgen wrote:
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> > Henk's architecture discusses 'Attestat= ion Principles' that are not
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> in
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> > Dave's proposal. I guess the WG needs to de= cide whether to include
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> them
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> > or not. Are these important for understanding o= r guiding the RATS
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> work?
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >>
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> I think that, to the extent that the architecture do= cument includes
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> requirements on the technical document must answer, = that these principles
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> need to be made explicit.=C2=A0 =C2=A0They should be= numbered as well so that we know
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 >> which principle to compromise to maintain another on= e.

    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > In a sense, Dave's document covers this idea as it d= oes discuss the ability
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > for 2 functions to be combined.=C2=A0 I don't think = adding a term is needed to
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > state that though and adding a specific term for that le= ads to
    =C2=A0 =C2=A0 > confusion.

    I need the architecture document to introduce terms like "freshness&qu= ot; and "provenance"
    and explain how they apply in an attestation context.=C2=A0 I need to know,= if I
    have to compromise one or the other to satisfy a particular use case, which=
    one is more important.

    Agreed, this is = important.=C2=A0 Attestations also provide origin authentication, which is = the basis for provenance.=C2=A0 Provenance just makes that origin authentic= ation (possibly for nested components) to be possible.=C2=A0 IMO, it's = a well understood term and should be easy to add, but I'd like to see i= t in context of origin authentication that helps to provide provenance.=C2= =A0 It's how I talked about it yesterday.
    =C2=A0

    {I don't claim the other document does a great job at defining those te= rms, btw}
    Hopefully, my explanation helps toward a def= inition in terms used in the IETF already.

    Best re= gards,
    Kathleen
    =C2=A0

    --
    Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
    =C2=A0-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-





    --

    Best regards,
    Kathleen
    --000000000000e1f3780595080436-- From nobody Wed Oct 16 08:07:21 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D068312095E for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 08:07:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8nmCixGx4uTd for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 08:07:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.72.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E3F35120935 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 08:07:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (mail.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.84.171]) by mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-10) with ESMTPS id x9GF74Zg009943 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT); Wed, 16 Oct 2019 17:07:05 +0200 Received: from [172.20.2.249] (199.243.96.171) by mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (141.12.84.171) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.468.0; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 17:06:59 +0200 To: Kathleen Moriarty , Michael Richardson CC: "rats@ietf.org" References: <20191009145006.r2pjsoo6jxirah64@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <9379d880-2b7e-6657-c547-b37bb7a9e466@sit.fraunhofer.de> <20191015154500.ruv2ie36hsxfb3qq@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <18413.1571227622@dooku.sandelman.ca> <13312.1571236317@dooku.sandelman.ca> From: Henk Birkholz Message-ID: <2a06c444-0a2a-d421-abe0-38ca4188f4f4@sit.fraunhofer.de> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 17:06:55 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [199.243.96.171] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Use case -> architecture document X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 15:07:20 -0000 Hi Kathleen, hi list, there was an interesting follow-up on discussion how RFC4949 data origin authentication ("The corroboration that the source of data received is as claimed."), attestation provenance & device identity are strongly intertwined, but mean different things in the context of RATS (well, actually the example this was discussed on was a subset of RATS: the RIV use-case). Another good example coming out of that discussion were the subtle difference between the RFC4949 term "fresh" ("Recently generated; not replayed from some earlier interaction of the protocol") evidence and the "freshness of evidence" (in contrast to "recentness of claim _and_ evidence creation"), which also mean quite different things. Last example I want to provide as food of though from that discussion is "proof of possession" vs "proof of availability at a specific point in time" This differentiation is a quite important for DICE-based remote attestation procedures, where the persistence of an alias key and corresponding certificates for attestation can be significantly shorter than, e.g. an associated DevID [1]. The point being, the semantics around the terms are vital, but unfortunate also easily conflated, if not worded with precision in a bigger context. The conclusion was to be very carefully about not conflating different things for the sake of simplicity, I think. Viele Grüße, Henk [1] https://trustedcomputinggroup.org/wp-content/uploads/TCG-DICE-Arch-Implicit-Identity-Based-Device-Attestation-v1-rev93.pdf On 16.10.19 16:35, Kathleen Moriarty wrote: > origin authentication From nobody Wed Oct 16 08:13:41 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FA5112086F for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 08:13:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hF1NyvRSPStq for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 08:13:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mga03.intel.com (mga03.intel.com [134.134.136.65]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7F89E120074 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 08:13:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Amp-Result: UNKNOWN X-Amp-Original-Verdict: FILE UNKNOWN X-Amp-File-Uploaded: False Received: from fmsmga001.fm.intel.com ([10.253.24.23]) by orsmga103.jf.intel.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 16 Oct 2019 08:13:35 -0700 X-ExtLoop1: 1 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.67,304,1566889200"; d="png'150?scan'150,208,217,150";a="208428365" Received: from orsmsx107.amr.corp.intel.com ([10.22.240.5]) by fmsmga001.fm.intel.com with ESMTP; 16 Oct 2019 08:13:35 -0700 Received: from orsmsx157.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.240.23) by ORSMSX107.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.240.5) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.439.0; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 08:13:34 -0700 Received: from orsmsx109.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.11.239]) by ORSMSX157.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.9.232]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 08:13:34 -0700 From: "Smith, Ned" To: Thomas Hardjono , "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: =?utf-8?B?W1JhdHNdIFF1ZXN0aW9uIGFib3V0IFdHIFByb2NlZHVyZSAtLSBSZTogIA==?= =?utf-8?B?562U5aSNOiAgVXNlIGNhc2UgLT4gYXJjaGl0ZWN0dXJlIGRvY3VtZW50?= Thread-Index: AQHVg5KZ1lIeSEUkg0S79RLWj4V3+Kddk7KA Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 15:13:34 +0000 Message-ID: <08D3CA59-6797-47D8-86CE-3A3B1E5EEE7A@intel.com> References: <1571169312645.46550@mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <1571169312645.46550@mit.edu> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.1d.0.190908 x-originating-ip: [10.254.203.1] Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="_004_08D3CA59679747D886CE3A3B1E5EEE7Aintelcom_"; type="multipart/alternative" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] =?utf-8?q?Question_about_WG_Procedure_--_Re=3A__=E7=AD=94?= 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x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: fLgn9CxvHHtOFLZBvH+ZQa4Nl/rxH2YRvhJzSIjoJ+sXGzNnb2OeTcGdAsYIHJlUnemh5o2IDsGf1HQOF2Bm1TOW9B16iu1zJgfWBE3PbWdFc03eONubaSWSsHcjAx+/0taFgdTOzVSkBAU0pvhyxgxH43SyC3ZFY6qRLcb1UxEnkpw0tn1AECX5CCZZRyqdVPfqIbaGuKgj99qkiGob5eTVwqM2edWOOxYnIw9YiIWX1WaASVoMP+1ymezoUuN4CwbL98cMSG4wEAZOzUvPY2qpxncGo01b6Wi8AAYrbMNyB2PS2dNjrZLhnimcGsFvvSB3mjfQISP4TrNMG1nFyskV5tc5n8jBbeevhut44bHB7QwdLT2m18uvXnbpYZ/faTcO9M+bxglKtBiCt9vwSPW19oV/QQWlOPUdP3cEfT4= x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: microsoft.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: b83f3638-1715-49da-7e05-08d7524f0cf5 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 16 Oct 2019 15:39:36.7454 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: v/S/v2VFDOPSvyfQ6hsIdfeoNgRDwUYLTAK+xVARwZ3jlEqXs5waLHw8EIKr58aBUXxiCPyuPmcLwbdA8fLzIh9abu7SxbMdV8LBoAnMqxs= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: MWHPR21MB0192 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] draft-thaler-rats-architecture (was Re: Use case -> architecture document) X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 15:39:43 -0000 > I think that the existence of the 2+ architectual models should be introd= uced earlier, > and that it is worth including an explanation in each use case as to how = they make > use of the passport/background-check model. I intentionally did not, since every use case I listed could use either mod= el, which was why I put the models after the use cases. Were the order to be reversed, I would= need to replace every use case with multiple "use cases", one per model. That's w= hy the intro above the use cases says they're solution independent. The choice of model= is made by a solution to a scenario, not the scenario. Maybe it's a terminology p= oint and I should call them scenarios? That is, if you think that a "use case" is = a specific solution to a scenario, rather than the scenario that needs to be solved with some s= olution which is how I was using the term. > I still find the terms Attester and Verifier confusing. I have no strong opinion on that matter, and will go along with whatever th= e WG consensus is, but was trying to use Henk's terms where I think a concept is essential to = understand. > I think that when the Verifier signs/creates the Attestation Results, tha= t this is an > act of Attestation, and this the Verifier is the Attester. I think it comes from the phrase "A attests to B" (meaning "A supplies clai= ms to B so that B can evaluate A's trustworthiness"), which is how I've often heard people talk about attestation. In that phrasing A is the Attester. In your phrasing, people would say "B attests A", but I've never heard anyo= ne say that. > draft-birkholz-rats-architecture uses this term Computing Environment, wh= ich I don't > think works well, but I don't have a better suggestion. That was an area I just hadn't gotten to in my draft attempt, so I don't ha= ve a better suggestion yet either, but I do think such a discussion is useful to help m= otivate the discussion around different ways to model sets of claims (nesting, chaining= , etc.) Dave From nobody Wed Oct 16 08:49:58 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4066C120806 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 08:49:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.894 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.894 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mnEe3tke8YxE for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 08:49:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p3plsmtpa06-06.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa06-06.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [173.201.192.107]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4A294120164 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 08:49:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.76] ([76.167.193.86]) by :SMTPAUTH: with ESMTPA id KlYei8H5OmAkgKlYfitT0k; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 08:49:54 -0700 From: Laurence Lundblade Message-Id: <1DCF08C6-A75C-4725-9CED-321D288CB4D3@island-resort.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D75042EC-05BC-4F1A-9FFA-C8AB3E7D9EB4" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 08:49:52 -0700 In-Reply-To: <08D3CA59-6797-47D8-86CE-3A3B1E5EEE7A@intel.com> Cc: Thomas Hardjono , "rats@ietf.org" To: "Smith, Ned" References: <1571169312645.46550@mit.edu> <08D3CA59-6797-47D8-86CE-3A3B1E5EEE7A@intel.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfKWHYsjQKR3dEzx4qp+gzFn6WmCFBP5KiUHGNsE/JOifiKVQUY77J1EfI6Gpk/fatYJ8Bnoy9KFfKc7U7DfHa2wE/cTpofbJLvdqNv0lqxvG/nzhjQzu Aj9fcy0/8jDwMYX+FqMm4uEv+uGgFqMRdMXzssJU6A8b5SYlxL98qCmg4ZpgOrzNwxukkbSYfMtd+FPJ6/0aBVCFuu3/011rxH5xqPfxo9o5hNLtK6QbWqb/ Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] =?utf-8?q?Question_about_WG_Procedure_--_Re=3A__=E7=AD=94?= =?utf-8?q?=E5=A4=8D=3A__Use_case_-=3E_architecture_document?= X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 15:49:57 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_D75042EC-05BC-4F1A-9FFA-C8AB3E7D9EB4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On Oct 16, 2019, at 8:13 AM, Smith, Ned wrote: > ... > The original milestones suggested that the timing could lag that of = other drafts (that seem to address more immediate needs.) Maybe that is = no longer the case because of a need to agree on terminology, = attestation workflows or connection endpoint semantics? ... EAT is not being held up by lack of a completed architecture document. = The same might be true of the yang draft. i think it is still true that architecture can lag the other documents. Lots of use cases already know what to do about end-end flows and = architecture. FIDO and Android attestation already have their flows. = They could use EAT without any IETF architecture document. Seems like the architecture effort is attempting a unified field theory = of attestation across all use cases. I think this is of value, but hard = to do. LL --Apple-Mail=_D75042EC-05BC-4F1A-9FFA-C8AB3E7D9EB4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
    On = Oct 16, 2019, at 8:13 AM, Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com>= wrote:
    ...
    The original milestones suggested that the timing could lag = that of other drafts (that seem to address more immediate needs.) Maybe = that is no longer the case because of a need to agree on terminology, = attestation workflows or connection endpoint = semantics?
    ...

    EAT is not being held up by lack of a completed = architecture document. The same might be true of the yang draft.

    i think = it is still true that architecture can lag the other = documents.

    Lots of use cases already know what to do about end-end flows = and architecture. FIDO and Android attestation already have their flows. = They could use EAT without any IETF architecture document.


    Seems like the architecture effort is attempting a unified = field theory of attestation across all use cases. I think this is of = value, but hard to do.

    LL

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Oct 2019 15:55:42 +0000 From: "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" To: Roman Danyliw , Thomas Hardjono , "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: =?utf-8?B?W1JhdHNdICBRdWVzdGlvbiBhYm91dCBXRyBQcm9jZWR1cmUgLS0gUmU6ICA=?= =?utf-8?B?562U5aSNOiAgVXNlIGNhc2UgLT4gYXJjaGl0ZWN0dXJlIGRvY3VtZW50?= Thread-Index: AQHVg5hQvRpQoWoT+U6y/fjuccraaKdc98aA Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 15:55:42 +0000 Message-ID: References: <1571169312645.46550@mit.edu> <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC01B3489497@marathon> In-Reply-To: <359EC4B99E040048A7131E0F4E113AFC01B3489497@marathon> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.10.e.190909 authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=ncamwing@cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [2001:420:c0c8:1002::3ea] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 5763ef0b-f6a9-44b4-3422-08d752514c7f x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: MWHPR11MB1871: x-ms-exchange-purlcount: 4 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Message-ID: To: "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" Cc: Laurence Lundblade , "Smith, Ned" , "rats@ietf.org" , Thomas Hardjono Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000fe1cd305950a5676" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] =?utf-8?q?Question_about_WG_Procedure_--_Re=3A_=E7=AD=94?= =?utf-8?q?=E5=A4=8D=3A_Use_case_-=3E_architecture_document?= X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 17:22:09 -0000 --000000000000fe1cd305950a5676 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 12:01 PM Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) < ncamwing@cisco.com> wrote: > Hi, > > Comments below: > > > > *From: *RATS on behalf of Laurence Lundblade < > lgl@island-resort.com> > *Date: *Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 08:50 > *To: *"Smith, Ned" > *Cc: *"rats@ietf.org" , Thomas Hardjono > *Subject: *Re: [Rats] Question about WG Procedure -- Re: =E7=AD=94=E5=A4= =8D: Use case -> > architecture document > > > > > > On Oct 16, 2019, at 8:13 AM, Smith, Ned wrote: > > ... > > The original milestones suggested that the timing could lag that of other > drafts (that seem to address more immediate needs.) Maybe that is no long= er > the case because of a need to agree on terminology, attestation workflows > or connection endpoint semantics? > > ... > > EAT is not being held up by lack of a completed architecture document. Th= e > same might be true of the yang draft. > > [NCW] Fully agree=E2=80=A6.and we did state (perhaps it was during the B= oFs) that > the architecture could be done in parallel as on several occasions the > architecture gets =E2=80=9Ctweaked=E2=80=9D based on the adoption of the = actual schemas, > protocols and interfaces adopted. > > > > i think it is still true that architecture can lag the other documents. > > > > Lots of use cases already know what to do about end-end flows and > architecture. FIDO and Android attestation already have their flows. They > could use EAT without any IETF architecture document. > > > > Seems like the architecture effort is attempting a unified field theory o= f > attestation across all use cases. I think this is of value, but hard to d= o. > > [NCW] Abstractly, I think there is general agreement on most of the roles > despite the naming of the roles and how they potentially fllow. That, to > me, can be the basis for the architecture, the models that Dave describes > are more of the interactions that define the interfaces or communications > between the roles. I=E2=80=99m not convinced yet on the hardship other = than the > discussions on the terminology > +1 - I agree with Nancy's responses. Best regards, Kathleen > > LL > > > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > --=20 Best regards, Kathleen --000000000000fe1cd305950a5676 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


    =
    On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 12:01 PM Nanc= y Cam-Winget (ncamwing) <ncamwing@= cisco.com> wrote:

    Hi,

    Comments below:

    =C2=A0

    From: = RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org>= ; on behalf of Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
    Date: Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 08:50
    To: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
    Cc: "rats@ie= tf.org" <rat= s@ietf.org>, Thomas Hardjono <hardjono@mit.edu>
    Subject: Re: [Rats] Question about WG Procedure -- Re:     =E7= =AD=94=E5=A4=8D: Use case= -> architecture document

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    On Oct 16, 2019, at 8:13 AM, Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com&g= t; wrote:

    ...

    The original milestones suggested that the timing co= uld lag that of other drafts (that seem to address more immediate needs.) M= aybe that is no longer the case because of a need to agree on terminology, = attestation workflows or connection endpoint semantics?

    ...

    EAT is not being held up by lack of a completed arch= itecture document. The same might be true of the yang draft.

    [NCW] Fully agree=E2=80=A6.and =C2=A0we did state (p= erhaps it was during the BoFs) that the architecture could be done in paral= lel as on several occasions the architecture gets =E2=80=9Ctweaked=E2=80=9D= based on the adoption of the actual schemas, protocols and interfaces adopted.

    =C2=A0

    i think it is still true that architecture can lag t= he other documents.

    =C2=A0

    Lots of use cases already know what to do about end-= end flows and architecture. FIDO and Android attestation already have their= flows. They could use EAT without any IETF architecture document.

    =C2=A0

    Seems like the architecture effort is attempting a u= nified field theory of attestation across all use cases. I think this is of= value, but hard to do.

    [NCW] Abstractly, I think there is general agreement= on most of the roles despite the naming of the roles and how they potentia= lly fllow.=C2=A0 That, to me, can be the basis for the architecture, the mo= dels that Dave describes are more of the interactions that define the interfaces or communications between the role= s.=C2=A0 I=E2=80=99m not convinced yet on the hardship other=C2=A0 than the= discussions on the terminology


    =
    +1 - I agree with Nancy's responses.=C2=A0=C2=A0
    <= br>
    Best regards,
    Kathleen

    =

    =C2=A0

    LL

    =C2=A0

    _______________________________________________
    RATS mailing list
    RATS@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats


    --

    Best regards,
    Kathleen
    --000000000000fe1cd305950a5676-- From nobody Wed Oct 16 10:34:41 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 960A91207FD for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 10:34:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o692sZI-E9W2 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 10:34:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.72.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 01150120116 for ; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 10:34:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (mail.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.84.171]) by mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-10) with ESMTPS id x9GHYSmS018217 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT); Wed, 16 Oct 2019 19:34:29 +0200 Received: from [172.20.2.249] (199.243.96.171) by mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (141.12.84.171) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.468.0; Wed, 16 Oct 2019 19:34:22 +0200 To: Kathleen Moriarty , "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" CC: "rats@ietf.org" , Thomas Hardjono , "Smith, Ned" , Laurence Lundblade References: <1571169312645.46550@mit.edu> <08D3CA59-6797-47D8-86CE-3A3B1E5EEE7A@intel.com> <1DCF08C6-A75C-4725-9CED-321D288CB4D3@island-resort.com> From: Henk Birkholz Message-ID: <31090c22-3bbd-9a3b-1cc5-3274a3ba8ff4@sit.fraunhofer.de> Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 19:34:18 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [199.243.96.171] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] =?utf-8?q?Question_about_WG_Procedure_--_Re=3A_=E7=AD=94?= =?utf-8?q?=E5=A4=8D=3A_Use_case_-=3E_architecture_document?= X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 17:34:41 -0000 Hi all, I 2nd this for the first YANG module, too. +1 to Nancy's summary. We explicitly illustrated during chartering that the architecture should grow and be inclusive to be able to represent the evolution of other WG items and be able to map solutions outside the IETF. From my subjective point of view today, EAT might actually have the least dependencies as it is intended to be quite versatile by design. Viele Grüße, Henk On 16.10.19 19:21, Kathleen Moriarty wrote: > > > On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 12:01 PM Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) > > wrote: > > Hi,____ > > Comments below:____ > > __ __ > > *From: *RATS > > on behalf of Laurence Lundblade > > *Date: *Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 08:50 > *To: *"Smith, Ned" > > *Cc: *"rats@ietf.org " >, Thomas Hardjono > > *Subject: *Re: [Rats] Question about WG Procedure -- Re: 答复: Use > case -> architecture document____ > > __ __ > > __ __ > > On Oct 16, 2019, at 8:13 AM, Smith, Ned > wrote:____ > > ...____ > > The original milestones suggested that the timing could lag that > of other drafts (that seem to address more immediate needs.) > Maybe that is no longer the case because of a need to agree on > terminology, attestation workflows or connection endpoint > semantics?____ > > ...____ > > EAT is not being held up by lack of a completed architecture > document. The same might be true of the yang draft. ____ > > [NCW] Fully agree….and  we did state (perhaps it was during the > BoFs) that the architecture could be done in parallel as on several > occasions the architecture gets “tweaked” based on the adoption of > the actual schemas, protocols and interfaces adopted.____ > > __ __ > > i think it is still true that architecture can lag the other > documents.____ > > __ __ > > Lots of use cases already know what to do about end-end flows and > architecture. FIDO and Android attestation already have their flows. > They could use EAT without any IETF architecture document.____ > > __ __ > > Seems like the architecture effort is attempting a unified field > theory of attestation across all use cases. I think this is of > value, but hard to do.____ > > [NCW] Abstractly, I think there is general agreement on most of the > roles despite the naming of the roles and how they potentially > fllow.  That, to me, can be the basis for the architecture, the > models that Dave describes are more of the interactions that define > the interfaces or communications between the roles.  I’m not > convinced yet on the hardship other  than the discussions on the > terminology > > > +1 - I agree with Nancy's responses. > > Best regards, > Kathleen > > ____ > > __ __ > > LL____ > > __ __ > > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > > > > -- > > Best regards, > Kathleen > > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > From nobody Wed Oct 16 12:16:42 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A3591201C6 for ; 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Wed, 16 Oct 2019 19:16:36 +0000 From: Dave Thaler To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sch=F6nw=E4lder=2C_J=FCrgen?= CC: "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Rats] Use case -> architecture document Thread-Index: AQHVfpUq2vNYZxzKzkGPZFkm3ao0cadSM9uAgAAwqYCAABSIAIAACXkAgAAPgoCACDU2sIABGpuAgAHM8JA= Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2019 19:16:36 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20191009145006.r2pjsoo6jxirah64@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <9379d880-2b7e-6657-c547-b37bb7a9e466@sit.fraunhofer.de> <20191015154500.ruv2ie36hsxfb3qq@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> In-Reply-To: <20191015154500.ruv2ie36hsxfb3qq@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: msip_labels: MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Enabled=True; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_SiteId=72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Owner=dthaler@ntdev.microsoft.com; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_SetDate=2019-10-16T19:16:36.5888979Z; 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I agree it does belong in terminology, the omission was not intentional. 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    Nancy, thanks for the summary.

      I think the RIV work is depending on the Y= ANG model, but I don't think there's an immediate dependency on the archite= cture document.  I do think Henk's architecture doc serves an importan= t role of unifying the terminology so it's not all so darn confusing to talk about, but that's an evolving process.<= /o:p>

      TEEP, EAT and RIV all share a common set o= f roles and concepts, centered on claims, evidence and proof, but the plumb= ing seems sure to be different...  YANG is the obvious path for RIV, b= ut likely of no interest in TEEP.  Reference Manifests are critical for RIV, but probably don't make much sense in some= of the other applications.  And I'm sure we'll find lots of other are= as where the broad concepts and roles align, but the nuts and bolts differ.=   And I can=A1=A6t really say yet whether RIV is a passport, a background check or some other kind of statement of a= uthority, without some more thought.

     So I'm not sure of the implication of using= the name "Profile" to describe these application spaces, but it = does seem like a way to achieve as much commonality as possible without imp= osing artificial requirements on one application because of some aspect of another.

      So I agree that we should carry on with th= e path of developing the applications while keeping them synchronized where= practical with an evolving architectural framework.

      Thanks

    /guy

     

     

     

    From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org> O= n Behalf Of Kathleen Moriarty
    Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2019 1:21 PM
    To: Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) <ncamwing@cisco.com>
    Cc: rats@ietf.org; Thomas Hardjono <hardjono@mit.edu>; Smith, = Ned <ned.smith@intel.com>; Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.c= om>
    Subject: Re: [Rats] Question about WG Procedure -- Re: =B5=AA=CE`: Use case -> architecture document

     

     

     

    On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 12:01 PM Nancy Cam-Winget (n= camwing) <ncamwing@cisco.com&g= t; wrote:

    Hi,

    Comments below:

     

    From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org&= gt; on behalf of Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
    Date: Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 08:50
    To: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
    Cc: "rats@ie= tf.org" <rat= s@ietf.org>, Thomas Hardjono <hardjono@mit.edu>
    Subject: Re: [Rats] Question about WG Procedure -- Re:     =B5=AA=CE`= : Use case -> architecture document

     

     

    On Oct 16, 2019, at 8:13 AM, Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com> wrote:<= /o:p>

    ...

    The original milestones suggested that the timing could lag that o= f other drafts (that seem to address more immediate needs.) Maybe that is n= o longer the case because of a need to agree on terminology, attestation workflows or connection endpoint sema= ntics?

    ...

    EAT is not being held up by lack of a completed architecture docum= ent. The same might be true of the yang draft.

    [NCW] Fully agree=A1K.and  we did state (perhaps it was durin= g the BoFs) that the architecture could be done in parallel as on several o= ccasions the architecture gets =A1=A7tweaked=A1=A8 based on the adoption of the actual schemas, protocols and interfaces adopted.

     

    i think it is still true that architecture can lag the other docum= ents.

     

    Lots of use cases already know what to do about end-end flows and = architecture. FIDO and Android attestation already have their flows. They c= ould use EAT without any IETF architecture document.

     

    Seems like the architecture effort is attempting a unified field t= heory of attestation across all use cases. I think this is of value, but ha= rd to do.

    [NCW] Abstractly, I think there is general agreement on most of th= e roles despite the naming of the roles and how they potentially fllow.&nbs= p; That, to me, can be the basis for the architecture, the models that Dave describes are more of the interactions = that define the interfaces or communications between the roles.  I=A1= =A6m not convinced yet on the hardship other  than the discussions on = the terminology

     

    +1 - I agree with Nancy's responses.  =

     

    Best regards,

    Kathleen

     

     

    LL

     

    _______________________________________________
    RATS mailing list
    RATS@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rat= s


     

    --

     

    Best regards,

    Kathleen

     

    Juniper Business Use Only

    --_000_BYAPR05MB4248E5146D990AB28BAD0FB1BA6D0BYAPR05MB4248namp_-- From nobody Thu Oct 17 07:02:30 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82D1D1202DD for ; Thu, 17 Oct 2019 07:02:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7l3hSx0I0Dou for ; Thu, 17 Oct 2019 07:02:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.72.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5A65F12029C for ; Thu, 17 Oct 2019 07:02:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (mail.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.84.171]) by mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-10) with ESMTPS id x9HE2L9K022689 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 17 Oct 2019 16:02:22 +0200 Received: from [172.20.2.249] (199.243.96.171) by mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (141.12.84.171) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.468.0; Thu, 17 Oct 2019 16:02:16 +0200 To: Kathleen Moriarty , References: From: Henk Birkholz Message-ID: <48ba5fed-5307-7f95-f2ad-dd26344b19ff@sit.fraunhofer.de> Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 16:02:14 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [199.243.96.171] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Architecture document review X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 14:02:30 -0000 Hello Kathleen, please find comments on your input inline. On 24.08.19 13:50, Kathleen Moriarty wrote: > Greetings! > > Thank you very much to the authors of the RATS architecture document. > It is clearly evolving and the current discussion on list should > help to shape it further. Acknowledging that it is a early draft, > the flow could be improved and consistency in writing style could be > as well. > > General comments: By referring to this as the RATS architecture, are > we including EAT in that? I'm just questioning this use of terms > early as sometimes the WG name just goes away and is not the same as > resulting protocols specified. What does RATS architecture mean in > this sense? Is it all things the WG develops or just RATS work? EAT is the most prominent serialization (with corresponding data- & information-model) and is included by the Message concept. The use of "RATS*" is already reduced and will be reduced down to a level where it is actually only a word substitution for "remote attestation procedures" in the context of a sentence. The "Remote Attestation Procedures Architecture" is a document that enables interoperable remote attestation procedures. If the definitions in this document are used they can be mapped to existing and emerging remote attestation procedures, e.g. Android KeyStore Attestation, Fast Identity Online, Remote Integrity Verification, Time-based Uni-Directional Attestation, the TEEP architecture workfows, or CHARRA. The intent is to create a "Profiles" for each of the examples and also enable future solutions to do the same thing in IETF documents. By doing so the semantics of messages conveyed in separate solutions can also be mapped and a remote attestation service can support multiple solutions in a seamless way as long as the message types, the roles of the services involved and the information elements (e.g. defined by information models in EAT ort Basic YANG RA, etc.) can be mapped. Every document created can be mapped to (a subset) of the architecture and therefore can be placed in the architectural model. Entities working on solutions therefore can so what is already there and fill the gaps to create a functioning interoperable solution that uses unified terminology, so there is no confusion what each part the solution solves or is intended to do to assess the trustworthiness of a communication partner. > > A diagram of how the components fit together would go a long way > towards having the document feel more like an architecture document > than a terminology document. It would also help with removing the > text on "RATS Roles" being a "building block". That text seems to > just be from one author based on writing style, so I think it can > easily be removed. The diagram setting forth the relationships > between architectural components would be really helpful for the > reader early in the document to see how each of the defined > components fit. This was likely already planned, but is worth > mentioning. The editor's version now starts with a concise glossary and the terminology is defined in greater detail in corresponding section later on. We are in the progress of pulling diagrams in that illustrate the relationships between the introduced concepts (architectural constituents). > > My comments are focused more on earlier sections and I tried not to > overlap with active discussions. My intent is to help improve the > document and move it towards something the WG could adopt near term > if updated. > > Abstract: > > First and second sentence: Remote ATtestation ProcedureS (RATS) > architecture facilitates the attestation of device characteristics > that, in general, are based on specific trustworthiness qualities > intrinsic to a device or service. S/qualities/factors/ I don't think > qualities is the right word. Factors or something else leaves this a > bit more open and to things that we may be able to nail down (or > others defining levels, etc.).. The whole paragraph was refactored and "intrinsic qualities" are gone now. Semantically, they are replaced by "security aspects" or "trustworthiness properties" when applicable. > > On the general comment, should we look at terminology usage in cases > like this sentence: The RATS architecture maps corresponding > attestation functions and capabilities to specific RATS Roles. s/RATS > Roles/Roles/ The use of the "RATS*" is reduced, but not entirely yet. Will fix. > > I'd recommend cutting the following sentences out of the abstract as > they are a bit confusing since there's not enough of an explanation > to understand what it means. If it makes sense, these could go to > the introduction and be clarified. > > The RATS architecture maps corresponding attestation functions and > capabilities to specific RATS Roles. The goal is to enable an > appropriate conveyance of evidence about device trustworthiness via > network protocols. RATS Roles provide the endpoint context for > understanding the various interaction semantics of the attestation > lifecycle. > > And > > Example usages include, but are not limited to: financial > transactions, voting machines, critical safety systems, network > equipment health, or trustworthy end-user device management./ Both sections are cut out. > > Introduction: > > The first sentence reads as if this will be an operational guidance > document.. Maybe add something about the architecture and how things > fit together? > > In general, this document provides normative guidance how to use, > create or adopt network protocols that facilitate remote attestation > procedures. Is replaced by: "In general, this document provide an composable architectural model the enables to map separate existing and emeging solution and identify or define their place in a RATS ecosystem.2 > > I suggest a re-write of the introduction to better explain the > problem being solved. This is meant to be an introduction to the > problem space and later the architecture is described to help solve > that problem. Upper part of the Introduction is a complete rewrite. > > Perhaps starting from a diagram would be helpful to establish a > cohesive set of thoughts for the later described architecture that > may help structure the document. Once the WG agrees to this > architecture, then update the structure and written prose? On it. > > The problem in this document is the architecture to support remote > attestation procedures - explain what that means, what problem is > being solved. Was the illutration good enough or is the readability still lacking? If the text illustrated above is a good step forward, we will pull that in. > > Section 1.1 - I think you can remove the word "Unfortunately" and > still get the point across. This is a crisper write up to help a > reader get started and maybe should come before any other > introduction text. Fixed > > Section 1.2 - This reads as if the architecture document is all about > setting terminology and it is really a terminology document > undercover as an architecture document. I'd strike all of this > text. That section is now removed. > > Section 2 - Since no other goals are discussed, I suggest removing > that part of the first sentence: > > OLD: One of the goals of the RATS Architecture is to provide the > building blocks - the roles defined by the RATS Architecture - to > enable the composition of service-chains/hierarchies and work-flows > that can create and appraise evidence about the trustworthiness of > devices and services. NEW: The RATS Architecture provides the > building blocks, including the roles that enable the composition of > service-chains/hierarchies and work-flows that can create and > appraise evidence about the trustworthiness of devices and services. The old passage was cut and the new proposed sentence added to the end of the Introduction > > Question: Is the architecture really all about the roles? The > emphasis on roles is important, but I think the wording puts too much > on it and then takes away from the architecture structure and > definition intended for this document. I think this perception from > my read goes away if you remove the suggested text and make the > change to the first sentence in this section or just have this > section start from the sentence: A big chunk of it are the 4 roles. Profiles can use only a subset or define additional ones. The four base ones are the central points for mapping and interopability. We moved the focus away from roles and extended it to: entities, roles, messages, and message properties. > > The RATS Architecture is based on the use-cases defined in > [I-D.richardson-rats-usecases]. > > The bulleted list seems to be a mix of what's in the architecture and > requirements for the architecture. That should be cleaned > up/separated. On it. > > The bulleted list that follows removes this focus on roles. > > First bullet: OLD: o The building blocks to create remote > attestation procedures applicable Actors, Roles, Duties, and > Interactions, NEW: o The building blocks to create remote > attestation procedures including applicable Actors, Roles, Duties, > and Interactions, As highlighted above the new "building-blocks" are the architectural constituents. > > Section 3.1: The notion that a "role" is a building block is > confusing. I'd recommend removing this terminology. Wouldn't the > attestation (claims and signature) be the building blocks? > Everything else is needed to support that in the architecture to > attain a trustworthiness level. Fixed. > > I have more thoughts on definitions, but will be brief for now. > > Attester definition - Would like to see evidence defined first and > you can remove "attester" that precedes evidence in the first > sentence. The new "Essential Terms" section hopefully addresses this in an appropriate way. Does it? > > Authentication checker: Please reword, run on sentence that is > difficult to read. There are too many thoughts within the same > sentence. That one is so gone :) > > Section 4.1.5 Suggested change If more than one RATS Role resides on > the same RATS Actor, a network protocol might not be required. s/Role > resides on the/ Role is performed by the/ That passage is gone. > > Section 7 - > > This gets difficult to read again. The last few sections were much > better. A lot of text in 7 can be deleted as it doesn't aid in > understanding the scope before the "In essence" paragraph. The passages in question where cut to rebuild them via a structured WG process. > > Somewhere in this section, there should be a discussion of the > expected bounds of a protocol in that an attestation may be > legitimate, but there may be compromised software that was > undetected. The responsibility for that software sits with the > attester, which is a key attribute for attestation users. Having the > responsibility for the integrity and security of attested code sit > with the originator or the attester is a key feature. This is an open action item / issue. > > > Thank you again for all of your work on this document to date, it's > much appreciated! -- > > Best regards, Kathleen Sorry for commenting on the changes to the document based in your input so late! Paralleling the work increased the pace at which the document is improving, significantly. Viele Grüße, Henk > > _______________________________________________ RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > From nobody Thu Oct 17 11:57:40 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86860120BD3 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 2019 11:57:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=github.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id at8QWBkoBvmo for ; Thu, 17 Oct 2019 11:57:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out-19.smtp.github.com (out-19.smtp.github.com [192.30.252.202]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EB951120B90 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 2019 11:57:33 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 11:57:33 -0700 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=github.com; s=pf2014; t=1571338653; bh=FZl4oO4R4cL4OuNWWj9bZUehlYOesYb2Y/PmPJqc9h0=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:From; b=E9OXiFUJHC0ubVmhadoR4snRIkpwfNd8C0FGZ+JPogn5XgQL13V5exak6YjWKISc9 i9BFsU7Hc4mKdm/4EZ1id7b8eRL/GUYKcJNnoA12V1VH8zmT6aAa9ALc8Z293cHecl wF7Pm+i1hM1YwhSv+tYk7wvCTySX16swuGYC7q+M= From: Laurence Lundblade To: rats@ietf.org Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-GitHub-Recipient-Address: rats@ietf.org X-Auto-Response-Suppress: All Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] [ietf-rats-wg/eat] 377ec6: OEMID clarifications and references X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 18:57:37 -0000 Branch: refs/heads/update_oui Home: https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat Commit: 377ec6c309fe1e1e5cfa86e2e98c01acb0faaf39 https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/377ec6c309fe1e1e5cfa86e2e98c01acb0faaf39 Author: Laurence Lundblade Date: 2019-10-17 (Thu, 17 Oct 2019) Changed paths: M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md Log Message: ----------- OEMID clarifications and references From nobody Thu Oct 17 11:58:07 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21949120BCD for ; Thu, 17 Oct 2019 11:58:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=github.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RsrR5-F5GnUQ for ; Thu, 17 Oct 2019 11:58:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out-24.smtp.github.com (out-24.smtp.github.com [192.30.252.207]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C5101120BC5 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 2019 11:58:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 11:58:01 -0700 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=github.com; s=pf2014; t=1571338681; bh=ILyFZzhxDt0036N1QzQ8nVZwtWRkP1X54e1L7omexbk=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:From; b=TlBsBPFYF3hRU4feXpkvZ9M6uMQwPNXz++9eO+OQUur81ZSUz+8SJXqDNF5mU8GDj NWmbBNSpWgfhD5DFbsjx45hMuEMXAZZ8Rj4aNZodafqh3NE3XYjMbTro/GVx42qbrC +lFvLsOEBTPd+hrO/FBFnncwZONEBMoTPGHeoa4I= From: Henk Birkholz To: rats@ietf.org Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-GitHub-Recipient-Address: rats@ietf.org X-Auto-Response-Suppress: All Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] [ietf-rats-wg/eat] 0e6b93: Script updating gh-pages from 377ec6c. 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[ci skip] From nobody Thu Oct 17 11:58:14 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1189120BD6 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 2019 11:58:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=github.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SaDlD1cMPVSS for ; Thu, 17 Oct 2019 11:58:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out-10.smtp.github.com (out-10.smtp.github.com [192.30.254.193]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 51F33120BD9 for ; Thu, 17 Oct 2019 11:58:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 11:58:06 -0700 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=github.com; s=pf2014; t=1571338687; bh=jl99YndLyiHT6ByAm0Xf/RfPZ0komazyPVzON79KQ4I=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:From; b=QFQHDIHgTFtsc6pjVISuNE6XDIIhLMqI+jurJra1PJeUFuWlFT456W4yBKQ3m84qU bSVN1AoqFxvGLG5QvEZdWRVbRu5OHjK7NbvjfBEAALYqI116Dmq6qPzzE33AiLqNFt Dp3G0qYJI8Psh++NwczlszbOtxrm3beolSi/Sv0E= From: Henk Birkholz To: rats@ietf.org Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-GitHub-Recipient-Address: rats@ietf.org X-Auto-Response-Suppress: All Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] [ietf-rats-wg/eat] f01e18: Script updating issues at 2019-10-17T18:58:03Z. [c... X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2019 18:58:11 -0000 Branch: refs/heads/gh-pages Home: https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat Commit: f01e18a5765149eb63efc23ba8ba15719d083af9 https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/f01e18a5765149eb63efc23ba8ba15719d083af9 Author: ID Bot Date: 2019-10-17 (Thu, 17 Oct 2019) Changed paths: M issues.json Log Message: ----------- Script updating issues at 2019-10-17T18:58:03Z. [ci skip] From nobody Fri Oct 18 10:56:03 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3812712000F for ; Fri, 18 Oct 2019 10:56:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C1y7Hk8RaHjx for ; Fri, 18 Oct 2019 10:55:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p3plsmtpa06-03.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa06-03.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [173.201.192.104]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F1BFE1200F8 for ; Fri, 18 Oct 2019 10:55:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.76] ([76.167.193.86]) by :SMTPAUTH: with ESMTPA id LWTjiKfINtyxRLWTlibVAP; Fri, 18 Oct 2019 10:55:58 -0700 From: Laurence Lundblade Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_2723B9BF-67AB-457A-89F5-7FBA8B186701" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Message-Id: <0DFF26D3-5C57-4882-9107-43BC0FFB9006@island-resort.com> Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 10:55:55 -0700 To: rats@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfKDGoGCq6D4FvOiMD26LCQ+XnuuxACkksiZ89KMU5aULJqdmWSMoBZVc77auaO4hdmDuscC+/Wq3/it+pBw4mm2RUQi7Wj0eETkqjNOhKwPJjjClukmo GWvslSCR2LQNw5tQFBHxweQ+fDf9bX2LT0dk2u3BzqSDFpGZGjVA7lGI Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] Yang module comments, plus relation to EAT X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 18 Oct 2019 17:56:01 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_2723B9BF-67AB-457A-89F5-7FBA8B186701 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Here=E2=80=99s a few thoughts / questions / comments on the Yang module, = some oriented to make EAT and the Yang attestation procedure less ships = in the night. The yang module describes a conveyance protocol, a means of moving = attestations over yang-based transports. It should support EAT format = attestations as well as TPM-format attestations.=20 It is probably be wrong to call the yang module = "ietf-basic-remote-attestation=E2=80=9D if all it can do is TPM-based = attestation. It needs to be able to carry EATs to have that name. EAT eventually should have claims that can carry the tpml2-quote fields, = particularly the PCRs to start paving a path for transition to the more = rich and flexible EAT format. I would expect this to be discussed when = we work on the EAT measurement issue = . Seems like there=E2=80=99s some parallel between YANG compute-nodes and = EAT submodules. Need a normative reference to know what a compute-node = really is. Seems like uptime is defined identically in EAT and YANG. There is one = thing in common for sure. :-) The draft seems to allows both IETF and TCG schemes for hash algorithm = identification. It uses the RFC6920 IDs for IETF hash identification, = not the COSE IDs. However it doesn=E2=80=99t seem to use =E2=80=9Cni:=E2=80= =9D URLS or have normative reference to RFC6920. This seems a bit = confused. Can we just use one scheme for hash algorithm identification? = Seems like COSE would be the one to choose. Similarly for signature algorithms, can=E2=80=99t we just use COSE IDs? It looks like UUID are used as a key id. If it is used as a think it is, = then it seems a simple random number would be better. COSE key IDs can = basically be like that. The internal details of UUID with the clock and = time fields seems arcane complexity from a time when good RNGs weren=E2=80= =99t available. Implementations can still make them in UUID format. It = is just an implementation detail. No one is going actually parse a UUID = to get the clock and time fields out. Is ima this one? https://sourceforge.net/p/linux-ima/wiki/Home/. I=E2=80=99= m not sure how that relates to TPMs and TCG. Maybe it doesn=E2=80=99t. = IMA is something we want to take into account in work on the EAT = measurement issue . The document is lacking normative references, for example to IMA (and = TCG documents). LL --Apple-Mail=_2723B9BF-67AB-457A-89F5-7FBA8B186701 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Here=E2=80=99s a few = thoughts / questions / comments on the Yang module, some oriented to = make EAT and the Yang attestation procedure less ships in the night.


    The yang module describes a conveyance protocol, a = means of moving attestations over yang-based transports. It should = support EAT format attestations as well as TPM-format = attestations. 

    It is probably be wrong = to call the yang module "ietf-basic-remote-attestation=E2=80=9D if all it can do is = TPM-based attestation. It needs to be able to carry EATs to have that = name.

    EAT eventually should have = claims that can carry the tpml2-quote fields, particularly the PCRs to = start paving a path for transition to the more rich and flexible EAT = format. I would expect this to be discussed when we work on the EAT = measurement issue.

    Seems like there=E2=80= =99s some parallel between YANG compute-nodes and EAT submodules. Need a = normative reference to know what a compute-node really is.

    Seems like uptime is = defined identically in EAT and YANG. There is one thing in common for = sure. :-)

    The draft seems to allows both IETF and TCG schemes = for hash algorithm identification. It uses the RFC6920 IDs for IETF = hash identification, not the COSE IDs. However it doesn=E2=80=99= t seem to use =E2=80=9Cni:=E2=80=9D URLS or have normative = reference to RFC6920. This seems a bit confused. Can we just use one = scheme for hash algorithm identification? Seems like COSE would be the = one to choose.

    Similarly = for signature algorithms, can=E2=80=99t we just use COSE = IDs?

    It looks = like UUID are used as a key id. If it is used as a think it is, then it = seems a simple random number would be better. COSE key IDs can basically = be like that. The internal details of UUID with the clock and time = fields seems arcane complexity from a time when good RNGs weren=E2=80=99t = available. Implementations can still make them in UUID format. It is = just an implementation detail. No one is going actually parse a UUID to = get the clock and time fields out.

    Is ima this = one? https://sourceforge.net/p/linux-ima/wiki/Home/. I=E2=80=99m= not sure how that relates to TPMs and TCG. Maybe it doesn=E2=80=99t. = IMA is something we want to take into account in work on = the EAT measurement issue.

    The document is lacking normative references, for = example to IMA (and TCG documents).

    LL










    = --Apple-Mail=_2723B9BF-67AB-457A-89F5-7FBA8B186701-- From nobody Sun Oct 20 02:48:07 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1E7D120145; Sun, 20 Oct 2019 02:47:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IkIUBs0RGJXW; Sun, 20 Oct 2019 02:47:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E9FFC1200DB; Sun, 20 Oct 2019 02:47:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pptp-218-1.informatik.uni-bremen.de (pptp-218-1.informatik.uni-bremen.de [134.102.218.240]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 46ww1K56nhz10Cx; Sun, 20 Oct 2019 11:47:49 +0200 (CEST) From: Carsten Bormann Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 593257665.692018-dc009fba5d5c6b68ad66b7c3ecef599a Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Message-Id: <48EB5C9D-AE2B-48FF-8FB7-0FC20FE5D02B@tzi.org> Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 11:47:49 +0200 To: suit , teep@ietf.org, din@irtf.org, rats@ietf.org, lake@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] [Cbor] Constrained Node/Network Cluster @ IETF106: DRAFT AGENDA X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 09:48:00 -0000 Here is my usual eclectic condensed agenda based on the DRAFT AGENDA for IETF106. Remember that there is still quite some potential for changes. Conflicts that meet the eye: LAKE/SUIT (already noted by Russ), BOF on top (thing security): TMRID. ACE/RATS are also both security technologies that impact IoT. COSE is a technology that might be relevant for WPACK. All times are SGT (Singapore Time) =3D=3D UTC + 8 hours (=3D=3D China = time). Singapore doesn't obey the daylight savings myth. (Pure UTC times at https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/agenda-utc are useful for those who want to listen from remote.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten FRIDAY, November 15, 2019 -- T2TRG/W3C WoT Workshop @ NUSS (https://is.gd/XWSfi8) SATURDAY, November 16, 2019 0830-2200 IETF Hackathon - Moor/Morrison SUNDAY, November 17, 2019 0830-1600 IETF Hackathon - Moor/Morrison 1700-1900 Welcome Reception - Fairmont Ballroom Foyer 1800-2000 Hot RFC Lightning Talks -- Padang MONDAY, November 18, 2019 1000-1200 Morning Session I Collyer ART dispatch Dispatch WG - Joint with ARTAREA Sophia IRTF icnrg Information-Centric Networking VIP A SEC *** rats Remote ATtestation ProcedureS WG 1330-1530 Afternoon Session I VIP A INT dnssd Extensions for Scalable DNS Service = Discovery WG - Joint with HOMENET VIP A INT homenet Home Networking WG - Joint with DNSSD Hullet INT *** lpwan IPv6 over Low Power Wide-Area Networks = WG Olivia IRTF*** dinrg Decentralized Internet Infrastructure Canning IRTF pearg Privacy Enhancements and Assessments = Research Group Padang SEC txauth Transactional Authorization and = Delegation BOF Sophia TSV tsvwg Transport Area Working Group WG 1550-1750 Afternoon Session II Collyer ART abcd Application Behavior Considering DNS BOF Padang IRTF irtfopen IRTF Open Meeting Sophia OPS v6ops IPv6 Operations WG Orchard RTG *** roll Routing Over Low power and Lossy = networks WG Canning SEC mls Messaging Layer Security WG 1810-1910 Afternoon Session III Canning INT *** lwig Light-Weight Implementation Guidance WG Olivia TSV rmcat RTP Media Congestion Avoidance = Techniques WG TUESDAY, November 19, 2019 1000-1200 Morning Session I Hullet RTG *** roll Routing Over Low power and Lossy = networks WG Olivia SEC *** teep Trusted Execution Environment = Provisioning WG Padang TSV quic QUIC WG 1330-1500 Afternoon Session I VIP A INT tmrid Trustworthy Multipurpose Remote ID BOF Padang IRTF maprg Measurement and Analysis for Protocols Canning SEC *** lake Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange = WG Olivia SEC *** suit Software Updates for Internet of Things = WG 1520-1650 Afternoon Session II Canning INT intarea Internet Area Working Group WG Olivia SEC *** ace Authentication and Authorization for = Constrained Environments WG VIP A SEC *** rats Remote ATtestation ProcedureS WG Hullet TSV taps Transport Services WG 1710-1840 Afternoon Session III Hullet IRTF qirg Quantum Internet Proposed Research Group Sophia OPS anima Autonomic Networking Integrated Model = and Approach WG Orchard RTG babel Babel routing protocol WG Padang SEC secdispatch Security Dispatch WG WEDNESDAY, November 20, 2019 1000-1200 Morning Session I Collyer RTG raw Reliable and Available Wireless BOF Sophia SEC *** teep Trusted Execution Environment = Provisioning WG Padang TSV quic QUIC WG 1330-1500 Afternoon Session I Canning ART webtrans WebTransport BOF Sophia INT *** 6lo IPv6 over Networks of = Resource-constrained Nodes WG Collyer IRTF cfrg Crypto Forum Olivia SEC oauth Web Authorization Protocol WG 1520-1650 Afternoon Session II Orchard ART *** core Constrained RESTful Environments WG Hullet OPS anima Autonomic Networking Integrated Model = and Approach WG Collyer SEC tls Transport Layer Security WG Sophia TSV tsvarea Transport Area Open Meeting THURSDAY, November 21, 2019 1000-1200 Morning Session I Sophia IRTF*** t2trg Thing-to-Thing VIP A RTG bier Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG Padang SEC tls Transport Layer Security WG Collyer TSV tsvwg Transport Area Working Group WG 1330-1530 Afternoon Session I Collyer ART httpbis Hypertext Transfer Protocol WG Sophia INT 6man IPv6 Maintenance WG Olivia RTG rift Routing In Fat Trees WG Canning SEC saag Security Area Open Meeting 1550-1720 Afternoon Session II Padang ART wpack Web Packaging BOF Canning RTG detnet Deterministic Networking WG Sophia SEC *** cose CBOR Object Signing and Encryption WG Hullet SEC oauth Web Authorization Protocol WG 1740-1840 Afternoon Session III Olivia ART *** cbor Concise Binary Object Representation = Maintenance and Extensions WG Sophia GEN git GitHub Integration and Tooling WG Padang INT 6man IPv6 Maintenance WG Canning RTG detnet Deterministic Networking WG FRIDAY, November 22, 2019 1000-1200 Morning Session I Collyer ART httpbis Hypertext Transfer Protocol WG Hullet INT *** 6tisch IPv6 over the TSCH mode of IEEE = 802.15.4e WG Sophia IRTF coinrg Computing in the Network Proposed = Research Group Olivia SEC mathmesh MatheMatical Mesh BOF 1220-1350 Morning Session II Hullet ART *** core Constrained RESTful Environments WG Sophia IRTF panrg Path Aware Networking RG Olivia SEC acme Automated Certificate Management = Environment WG _______________________________________________ CBOR mailing list CBOR@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor From nobody Sun Oct 20 14:45:08 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C82512006A for ; 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a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=github.com; s=pf2014; t=1571607903; bh=nRWeKXDGZ79c8EMsvd9Dd9nA5LuG+ZpUS7m12ZHQsqM=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:From; b=jZHcVpkiMRrfZGuWNXPYvxKpHR0r2QSPQitr6vEfbm+CY8U+dqPdh0RYp/HVGFgav wuSw/66rN44ipvEBfIWwPz6grGufL+uDtiYNt8TrrJ2HcLQTRqEhIfDRJr0iDxkS69 QpJ2k0NuuLwl2nabMCFv41GnZ9AXRe0BN2NTA5p8= From: Laurence Lundblade To: rats@ietf.org Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-GitHub-Recipient-Address: rats@ietf.org X-Auto-Response-Suppress: All Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] [ietf-rats-wg/eat] 7aa091: More thorough justification for 256-bit UEID X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 20 Oct 2019 21:45:05 -0000 Branch: refs/heads/256bitUEID Home: https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat Commit: 7aa0912314263a394f3da50c6b873410fe648c64 https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/7aa0912314263a394f3da50c6b873410fe648c64 Author: Laurence Lundblade Date: 2019-10-20 (Sun, 20 Oct 2019) Changed paths: M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md Log Message: ----------- More thorough justification for 256-bit UEID From nobody Mon Oct 21 06:13:10 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1DF5120099 for ; 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Mon, 21 Oct 2019 14:13:04 +0100 Received: from lhreml709-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.58) by lhreml709-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.58) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1713.5; Mon, 21 Oct 2019 14:13:04 +0100 Received: from DGGEMM423-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.1.198.40) by lhreml709-chm.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.58) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA_P256) id 15.1.1713.5 via Frontend Transport; Mon, 21 Oct 2019 14:13:04 +0100 Received: from DGGEMM511-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.205]) by dggemm423-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.1.198.40]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Mon, 21 Oct 2019 21:13:00 +0800 From: "Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)" To: "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: I-D Action: draft-xia-rats-pubsub-model-01.txt Thread-Index: AQHViBDOUI4rb/HFBUK0zshVl4zGpqdlEcGw Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2019 13:13:00 +0000 Message-ID: References: <157166335792.31879.1954974781212349601@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <157166335792.31879.1954974781212349601@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.134.159.76] Content-Type: text/plain; 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Wed, 23 Oct 2019 21:38:18 +0000 From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" To: "Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)" , "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: I-D Action: draft-xia-rats-pubsub-model-01.txt Thread-Index: AQHViBDOUI4rb/HFBUK0zshVl4zGpqdlEcGwgAOpqIA= Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 21:38:18 +0000 Message-ID: References: <157166335792.31879.1954974781212349601@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=evoit@cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [173.38.117.65] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 3b380275-b292-4a78-f91a-08d7580151e1 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: SN6PR11MB3040: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:5797; x-forefront-prvs: 019919A9E4 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009020)(4636009)(396003)(136003)(366004)(39860400002)(346002)(376002)(199004)(189003)(256004)(316002)(2906002)(186003)(966005)(7696005)(99286004)(76176011)(2501003)(66066001)(66556008)(9686003)(66476007)(66946007)(6246003)(86362001)(76116006)(66446008)(6306002)(229853002)(66616009)(64756008)(25786009)(52536014)(5660300002)(55016002)(3846002)(6116002)(8936002)(66574012)(71200400001)(476003)(81156014)(8676002)(6506007)(81166006)(478600001)(446003)(26005)(14454004)(71190400001)(4001150100001)(11346002)(6436002)(33656002)(74316002)(486006)(99936001)(305945005)(14444005)(102836004)(110136005)(7736002); 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Frank, A few quick thoughts. (1) The best way to deliver a nonce is to augment the = RPC from RFC8639. This requires just one = object update. To make this work effectively, we would need to expand = the draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module to also include data nodes for = PCR state, rather than just the current RPCs. BTW: If we base the data = nodes on existing groupings, this actually is not a big change. (2) Figure 2 & 3 mix the context of both stream subscriptions (RFC8639) = and datastore subscriptions (RFC8641). What you want is an RFC8641 = subscription to draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module, and an = independent RFC8639 subscription to event streams like = pcr-trust-evidence. The results of these subscriptions can be = independently correlated at the verifier. (3) Interestingly, the need to subscribe on-change to the values of = individual PCRs (rather than a hash across multiple PCRs) is a perfect = example of why a router will need to do pre-processing and summarization = of signed information coming off a TPM. This is in contrast to people = who believe that a cryptoprocessor's raw feed is sufficient for all = off-router applications. A raw feed from a TPM is simply not sufficent. Eric > From: Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept), October 21, = 2019 9:13 AM >=20 > Hi, > We submit a new draft describing a method of using the netconf pub/sub > model in the RATS interaction procedure, to increase its flexibility, = efficiency > and scalability. >=20 > Warmly welcome your comments! >=20 > B.R. > Frank >=20 >=20 > -----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB=B6----- > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: I-D-Announce = [mailto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org] =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 > internet-drafts@ietf.org > =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: = 2019=E5=B9=B410=E6=9C=8821=E6=97=A5 21:09 > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: i-d-announce@ietf.org > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: I-D Action: draft-xia-rats-pubsub-model-01.txt >=20 >=20 > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts = directories. >=20 >=20 > Title : Using Netconf Pub/Sub Model for RATS = Interaction > Procedure > Authors : Liang Xia (Frank) > Wei Pan > Filename : draft-xia-rats-pubsub-model-01.txt > Pages : 14 > Date : 2019-10-21 >=20 > Abstract: > This draft defines the a new method of using the netconf pub/sub > model in the RATS interaction procedure, to increse its = flexibility, > efficiency and scalability. >=20 >=20 > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xia-rats-pubsub-model/ >=20 > There are also htmlized versions available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xia-rats-pubsub-model-01 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-xia-rats-pubsub-model-01 >=20 > A diff from the previous version is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-xia-rats-pubsub-model-01 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at = tools.ietf.org. >=20 > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >=20 > _______________________________________________ > I-D-Announce mailing list > I-D-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce > Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats ------=_NextPart_000_0D6C_01D589C8.A6621D10 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIMWTCCA0Mw ggIroAMCAQICEF/4eygrVNyNQqMVtWjJrf8wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwNTEWMBQGA1UEChMNQ2lz Y28gU3lzdGVtczEbMBkGA1UEAxMSQ2lzY28gUm9vdCBDQSAyMDQ4MB4XDTA0MDUxNDIwMTcxMloX DTI5MDUxNDIwMjU0MlowNTEWMBQGA1UEChMNQ2lzY28gU3lzdGVtczEbMBkGA1UEAxMSQ2lzY28g Um9vdCBDQSAyMDQ4MIIBIDANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ0AMIIBCAKCAQEAsJq5q6evCnen4nG2 tGZilHiIR8ZiVYRAMr/Aqy6lHHHWvG57qKq6btIViEhFnaL8g9DMuYzgJmhwSnjfIRee9GEFyRXI 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X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CB5912010D for ; Wed, 23 Oct 2019 20:31:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 78E-CNGOLAcf for ; Wed, 23 Oct 2019 20:31:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EE7BD1200F6 for ; Wed, 23 Oct 2019 20:31:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml709-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id D613AF65FCCD295BE38E for ; Thu, 24 Oct 2019 04:31:45 +0100 (IST) Received: from DGGEMM404-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.3.20.212) by lhreml709-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.32) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Thu, 24 Oct 2019 04:31:45 +0100 Received: from DGGEMM511-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.205]) by DGGEMM404-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.3.20.212]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Thu, 24 Oct 2019 11:31:40 +0800 From: "Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)" To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" CC: "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: I-D Action: draft-xia-rats-pubsub-model-01.txt Thread-Index: AQHViBDOUI4rb/HFBUK0zshVl4zGpqdlEcGwgAOpqICAAFOgUA== Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 03:31:40 +0000 Message-ID: References: <157166335792.31879.1954974781212349601@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.33.46] Content-Type: text/plain; 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Oct 2019 12:45:59 +0000 From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" To: "Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)" CC: "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: I-D Action: draft-xia-rats-pubsub-model-01.txt Thread-Index: AQHViBDOUI4rb/HFBUK0zshVl4zGpqdlEcGwgAOpqICAAFOgUIAArEcA Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 12:45:58 +0000 Message-ID: References: <157166335792.31879.1954974781212349601@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=evoit@cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [173.38.117.82] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 71d72573-b7bf-4d78-7dea-08d758801ee1 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BN7PR11MB2531: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:7219; x-forefront-prvs: 0200DDA8BE x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; 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5gmqOFjOtw2jmh3bweSLiMmKpo62wSCPEJI2OI9lFQp9FVxaAF4Y4hg0r8IX837sF75g4lEzq5LKPKVdFUFPildx8LDqtlA4OYeyTZIbFXTSkyuEsW92gU8MSboxT3uWiLwFpHorDUAZEGWIUPeERnV8U/IsSjKifAjN8craf3Dt1sOkySNf5DOkmKu0cUdLrQko+kRdehv8N7FgS1se936dtByB3Gm7W0ODvljF4uGO3F9Xx3WIyDyVvguNy53beA3ZnsCM+Zur7MolTQggxRK+Z+1D62sa7Se/bigMHYo/tLhwLtMSif+319/WlhDCNofEvdqYsqNuEW/dSTTKi1qYixuypQX4ReCQ0tr1dgVaMD6fASYwcJgM0YHVm0vX295AfPE6gT+Oe85UTJBquoS4KRnrNTM9natE0UHnVyvecbDWaD7wpJeZSZhIOmrV x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=SHA1; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0DD9_01D58A45.A1CD71F0" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 71d72573-b7bf-4d78-7dea-08d758801ee1 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 24 Oct 2019 12:45:59.0198 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: pZ3RhCwNaSa6n9KyHvzxYXwLgWfm6ia1A7+nb25duRRBuE1Kdu7FklmJkZYZj01W X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN7PR11MB2531 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.20, xch-aln-010.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-6.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] I-D Action: draft-xia-rats-pubsub-model-01.txt X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2019 12:46:07 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_0DD9_01D58A45.A1CD71F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Frank, > From: Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept), Wednesday, = October 23, 2019 11:32 PM > To: Eric Voit (evoit) >=20 > Hi Eric, > Thank you for good comments! >=20 > Please see inline: >=20 > -----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB=B6----- > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: RATS [mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org] = =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 Eric Voit (evoit) > =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: = 2019=E5=B9=B410=E6=9C=8824=E6=97=A5 5:38 > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & = Patent Dept) > ; rats@ietf.org > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: Re: [Rats] I-D Action: = draft-xia-rats-pubsub-model-01.txt >=20 > Hi Frank, >=20 > A few quick thoughts. >=20 > (1) The best way to deliver a nonce is to augment the subscription> RPC from RFC8639. This requires just one object update. = To > make this work effectively, we would need to expand the = draft-birkholz-rats- > basic-yang-module to also include data nodes for PCR state, rather = than just > the current RPCs. BTW: If we base the data nodes on existing = groupings, this > actually is not a big change. > [Frank]: I don't understand your point exactly. Since nonce for = freshness > checking and protecting against replay attack is used by a randomly > generating and varied in each notification message way, I think = current > dynamic subscription or configured subscription both need some = extension > for achieving this goal. And what is the point of your next statement = of > including data nodes for PCR state rather than just the current RPCs? = Do you > mean by this way the PCR state can be acquired by netconf push = solution? Yes. One way to do this would be sending a TUDA Sync token in the RPC = response, or the subscription-started notification. Eric =20 > (2) Figure 2 & 3 mix the context of both stream subscriptions = (RFC8639) and > datastore subscriptions (RFC8641). What you want is an RFC8641 > subscription to draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module, and an = independent > RFC8639 subscription to event streams like pcr-trust-evidence. The = results of > these subscriptions can be independently correlated at the verifier. > [Frank]: You are right. Figure 2 is an example of using configured > subscriptions to acquire the on-change state of PCR since they are = very > important event for RATS protocol. Figure 3 is an example of using = netconf > push (datastore subscriptions) to periodically get = bios-log-trust-evidence for > normal checking task. Figure 4 is an example of using the pre-defined = events > as the update trigger according the relatively new ECA netconf method. = But I > generally agree with your idea of their relation. >=20 > (3) Interestingly, the need to subscribe on-change to the values of = individual > PCRs (rather than a hash across multiple PCRs) is a perfect example of = why a > router will need to do pre-processing and summarization of signed > information coming off a TPM. This is in contrast to people who = believe that > a cryptoprocessor's raw feed is sufficient for all off-router = applications. A > raw feed from a TPM is simply not sufficent. >=20 > Eric >=20 > > From: Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept), October 21, > > 2019 9:13 AM > > > > Hi, > > We submit a new draft describing a method of using the netconf = pub/sub > > model in the RATS interaction procedure, to increase its = flexibility, > > efficiency and scalability. > > > > Warmly welcome your comments! > > > > B.R. > > Frank > > > > > > -----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB=B6----- > > =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: I-D-Announce = [mailto:i-d-announce-bounces@ietf.org] =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 > > internet-drafts@ietf.org > > =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: = 2019=E5=B9=B410=E6=9C=8821=E6=97=A5 21:09 > > =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: i-d-announce@ietf.org > > =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: I-D Action: draft-xia-rats-pubsub-model-01.txt > > > > > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > directories. > > > > > > Title : Using Netconf Pub/Sub Model for RATS = Interaction > > Procedure > > Authors : Liang Xia (Frank) > > Wei Pan > > Filename : draft-xia-rats-pubsub-model-01.txt > > Pages : 14 > > Date : 2019-10-21 > > > > Abstract: > > This draft defines the a new method of using the netconf pub/sub > > model in the RATS interaction procedure, to increse its = flexibility, > > efficiency and scalability. > > > > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xia-rats-pubsub-model/ > > > > There are also htmlized versions available at: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-xia-rats-pubsub-model-01 > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-xia-rats-pubsub-model-01 > > > > A diff from the previous version is available at: > > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-xia-rats-pubsub-model-01 > > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > > submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at > tools.ietf.org. > > > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > I-D-Announce mailing list > > I-D-Announce@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce > > Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or > > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > > _______________________________________________ > > RATS mailing list > > RATS@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats ------=_NextPart_000_0DD9_01D58A45.A1CD71F0 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIMWTCCA0Mw ggIroAMCAQICEF/4eygrVNyNQqMVtWjJrf8wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwNTEWMBQGA1UEChMNQ2lz Y28gU3lzdGVtczEbMBkGA1UEAxMSQ2lzY28gUm9vdCBDQSAyMDQ4MB4XDTA0MDUxNDIwMTcxMloX DTI5MDUxNDIwMjU0MlowNTEWMBQGA1UEChMNQ2lzY28gU3lzdGVtczEbMBkGA1UEAxMSQ2lzY28g 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ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8D523120853 for ; Fri, 25 Oct 2019 03:49:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lhreml701-cah.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.108]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id B733CE11394EA5729700 for ; Fri, 25 Oct 2019 11:49:51 +0100 (IST) Received: from DGGEMM424-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.1.198.41) by lhreml701-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.42) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Fri, 25 Oct 2019 11:49:50 +0100 Received: from DGGEMM511-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.205]) by dggemm424-hub.china.huawei.com ([10.1.198.41]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Fri, 25 Oct 2019 18:49:46 +0800 From: "Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)" To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" CC: "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: I-D Action: draft-xia-rats-pubsub-model-01.txt Thread-Index: AQHViBDOUI4rb/HFBUK0zshVl4zGpqdlEcGwgAOpqICAAFOgUIAArEcAgAF4E0A= Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 10:49:46 +0000 Message-ID: References: <157166335792.31879.1954974781212349601@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.33.46] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] =?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiBJLUQgQWN0aW9uOiBkcmFmdC14aWEtcmF0?= =?utf-8?q?s-pubsub-model-01=2Etxt?= X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 10:49:57 -0000 SGkgRXJpYywNCg0KLS0tLS3pgq7ku7bljp/ku7YtLS0tLQ0K5Y+R5Lu25Lq6OiBSQVRTIFttYWls dG86cmF0cy1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnXSDku6PooaggRXJpYyBWb2l0IChldm9pdCkNCuWPkemA geaXtumXtDogMjAxOeW5tDEw5pyIMjTml6UgMjA6NDYNCuaUtuS7tuS6ujogWGlhbGlhbmcgKEZy YW5rLCBOZXR3b3JrIFN0YW5kYXJkICYgUGF0ZW50IERlcHQpIDxmcmFuay54aWFsaWFuZ0BodWF3 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cmcvaW50ZXJuZXQtZHJhZnRzLw0KPiA+DQo+ID4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4gPiBJLUQtQW5ub3VuY2UgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQo+ID4g SS1ELUFubm91bmNlQGlldGYub3JnDQo+ID4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9s aXN0aW5mby9pLWQtYW5ub3VuY2UNCj4gPiBJbnRlcm5ldC1EcmFmdCBkaXJlY3RvcmllczogaHR0 cDovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9zaGFkb3cuaHRtbCBvciANCj4gPiBmdHA6Ly9mdHAuaWV0Zi5vcmcv aWV0Zi8xc2hhZG93LXNpdGVzLnR4dA0KPiA+IF9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+ID4gUkFUUyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4gPiBSQVRTQGlldGYu b3JnDQo+ID4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9yYXRzDQo= From nobody Fri Oct 25 14:15:28 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietf.org Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60E331208B6; Fri, 25 Oct 2019 14:12:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "\"IETF Secretariat\"" To: , Cc: rdd@cert.org, rats@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.108.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <157203792938.2724.1430289847060655159.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 14:12:09 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] rats - Requested sessions have been scheduled for IETF 106 X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 21:12:16 -0000 Dear Kathleen Moriarty, The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled. Below is the scheduled session information followed by the original request. rats Session 1 (1:30 requested) Tuesday, 19 November 2019, Afternoon Session II 1520-1650 Room Name: VIP A size: 100 --------------------------------------------- rats Session 2 (2:00 requested) Friday, 22 November 2019, Morning Session I 1000-1200 Room Name: Orchard size: 50 --------------------------------------------- iCalendar: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/106/sessions/rats.ics Request Information: --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: Remote ATtestation ProcedureS Area Name: Security Area Session Requester: Kathleen Moriarty Number of Sessions: 2 Length of Session(s): 1.5 Hours, 2 Hours Number of Attendees: 40 Conflicts to Avoid: Chair Conflict: secdispatch saag mile acme tls sacm teep suit netconf Key Participant Conflict: anima cose dprive People who must be present: Ned Smith Kathleen Moriarty Nancy Cam-Winget Roman Danyliw Resources Requested: Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Fri Oct 25 14:47:15 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4097D1200C4; Fri, 25 Oct 2019 14:47:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zLGVG-vUyVTl; Fri, 25 Oct 2019 14:47:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de [134.102.50.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D86AE12004A; Fri, 25 Oct 2019 14:47:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.217.110] (p5089AE1C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [80.137.174.28]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by gabriel-vm-2.zfn.uni-bremen.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 470Hbr6LzJzySF; Fri, 25 Oct 2019 23:40:56 +0200 (CEST) From: Carsten Bormann Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-Mao-Original-Outgoing-Id: 593732451.3356169-d1c582c9ee08b96bce13fc030c30fcff Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.5 \(3445.9.1\)) Message-Id: <1E12A893-A07F-44CB-B106-B3D3BB55B378@tzi.org> Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 23:40:56 +0200 To: suit@ietf.org, teep@ietf.org, din@irtf.org, rats@ietf.org, lake@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.9.1) Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] Constrained Node/Network Cluster @ IETF106: FINAL AGENDA X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2019 21:47:13 -0000 Here is my usual eclectic condensed agenda based on the FINAL AGENDA for IETF106. Remember that, occasionally, futher agenda changes do happen. Quite a bit has been moved around from the draft agenda. LAKE no longer conflicts with SUIT, TMRID is now on top of ROLL and TEEP which is maybe a bit less of a problem for most. ACE/RATS still conflict (and the other RATS meeting has moved from Monday to Friday on top of COINRG, but you can do this RATS thing without me, can you?). WPACK no longer conflicts with COSE (but now does with LAKE, which again probably just is a personal problem), LAKE/ANIMA is a technology and a potential user again. All times are SGT (Singapore Time) =3D=3D UTC + 8 hours (=3D=3D China = time). Singapore doesn't obey the daylight savings myth. (Pure UTC times at https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/agenda-utc are useful for those who want to listen from remote.) Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe, Carsten FRIDAY, November 15, 2019 -- T2TRG/W3C WoT Workshop @ NUSS (https://is.gd/XWSfi8) SATURDAY, November 16, 2019 0830-2200 IETF Hackathon - Moor/Morrison SUNDAY, November 17, 2019 0830-1600 IETF Hackathon - Moor/Morrison 1700-1900 Welcome Reception - Fairmont Ballroom Foyer 1800-2000 Hot RFC Lightning Talks -- Padang MONDAY, November 18, 2019 1000-1200 Morning Session I Sophia ART dispatch Dispatch WG - Joint with ARTAREA Olivia IRTF icnrg Information-Centric Networking Collyer SEC mathmesh MatheMatical Mesh BOF 1330-1530 Afternoon Session I VIP A INT dnssd Extensions for Scalable DNS Service = Discovery WG - Joint with HOMENET VIP A INT homenet Home Networking WG - Joint with DNSSD Olivia IRTF*** dinrg Decentralized Internet Infrastructure Canning IRTF pearg Privacy Enhancements and Assessments = Research Group Padang SEC txauth Transactional Authorization and = Delegation BOF Sophia TSV tsvwg Transport Area Working Group WG 1550-1750 Afternoon Session II Canning ART httpbis Hypertext Transfer Protocol WG Padang IRTF irtfopen IRTF Open Meeting Collyer OPS v6ops IPv6 Operations WG Orchard RTG *** roll Routing Over Low power and Lossy = networks WG 1810-1910 Afternoon Session III Olivia INT *** lwig Light-Weight Implementation Guidance WG Padang IRTF maprg Measurement and Analysis for Protocols TUESDAY, November 19, 2019 1000-1200 Morning Session I VIP A INT tmrid Trustworthy Multipurpose Remote ID BOF Olivia RTG *** roll Routing Over Low power and Lossy = networks WG Sophia SEC *** teep Trusted Execution Environment = Provisioning WG Padang TSV quic QUIC WG 1330-1500 Afternoon Session I Padang ART abcd Application Behavior Considering DNS BOF VIP A RTG babel Babel routing protocol WG Sophia SEC *** suit Software Updates for Internet of Things = WG Hullet TSV rmcat RTP Media Congestion Avoidance = Techniques WG 1520-1650 Afternoon Session II Sophia GEN git GitHub Integration and Tooling WG Collyer INT *** lpwan IPv6 over Low Power Wide-Area Networks = WG Olivia SEC *** ace Authentication and Authorization for = Constrained Environments WG VIP A SEC *** rats Remote ATtestation ProcedureS WG Hullet TSV taps Transport Services WG 1710-1840 Afternoon Session III Hullet IRTF qirg Quantum Internet Proposed Research Group Sophia OPS anima Autonomic Networking Integrated Model = and Approach WG Padang SEC secdispatch Security Dispatch WG WEDNESDAY, November 20, 2019 1000-1200 Morning Session I Sophia ART *** core Constrained RESTful Environments WG Canning RTG raw Reliable and Available Wireless BOF Olivia SEC *** teep Trusted Execution Environment = Provisioning WG Padang TSV quic QUIC WG 1330-1500 Afternoon Session I Collyer ART webtrans WebTransport BOF Sophia INT *** 6lo IPv6 over Networks of = Resource-constrained Nodes WG Canning IRTF cfrg Crypto Forum Olivia SEC oauth Web Authorization Protocol WG 1520-1650 Afternoon Session II Collyer ART wpack Web Packaging BOF Hullet OPS anima Autonomic Networking Integrated Model = and Approach WG Sophia SEC *** lake Lightweight Authenticated Key Exchange = WG 1710-1940 IETF Plenary - Canning/Padang THURSDAY, November 21, 2019 1000-1200 Morning Session I Sophia IRTF*** t2trg Thing-to-Thing Orchard RTG bier Bit Indexed Explicit Replication WG Padang SEC tls Transport Layer Security WG Canning TSV tsvwg Transport Area Working Group WG 1330-1530 Afternoon Session I Collyer ART httpbis Hypertext Transfer Protocol WG Sophia INT 6man IPv6 Maintenance WG Olivia RTG rift Routing In Fat Trees WG Canning SEC saag Security Area Open Meeting 1550-1720 Afternoon Session II Padang INT intarea Internet Area Working Group WG Collyer RTG detnet Deterministic Networking WG Sophia SEC *** cose CBOR Object Signing and Encryption WG Hullet SEC oauth Web Authorization Protocol WG 1740-1840 Afternoon Session III Hullet ART *** cbor Concise Binary Object Representation = Maintenance and Extensions WG Sophia INT 6man IPv6 Maintenance WG Collyer RTG detnet Deterministic Networking WG Canning SEC tls Transport Layer Security WG Padang TSV tsvarea Transport Area Open Meeting FRIDAY, November 22, 2019 1000-1200 Morning Session I Hullet INT *** 6tisch IPv6 over the TSCH mode of IEEE = 802.15.4e WG Sophia IRTF coinrg Computing in the Network Proposed = Research Group Canning SEC mls Messaging Layer Security WG Orchard SEC *** rats Remote ATtestation ProcedureS WG 1220-1350 Morning Session II Hullet ART *** core Constrained RESTful Environments WG Sophia IRTF panrg Path Aware Networking RG Olivia SEC acme Automated Certificate Management = Environment WG _______________________________________________ CBOR mailing list CBOR@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/cbor From nobody Mon Oct 28 07:37:31 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35BF712083C for ; 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Mon, 28 Oct 2019 07:37:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Kathleen Moriarty Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 10:36:49 -0400 Message-ID: To: rats@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000317ec50595f970f4" Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] Agenda Requests X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 14:37:30 -0000 --000000000000317ec50595f970f4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Greetings! This is an official call for agenda items. We have received some and will be sorting through those to post soon, but would like to make an official call for agenda items. -- Best regards, Kathleen --000000000000317ec50595f970f4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Greetings!

    This is an official call for= agenda items.=C2=A0 We have received some and will be sorting through thos= e to post soon, but would like to make an official call for agenda items.

    --

    Best regards,
    Kathleen
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mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=juniper.net; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=juniper.net; dkim=pass header.d=juniper.net; arc=none Received: from BYAPR05MB4248.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (20.176.251.147) by BYAPR05MB6181.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (20.178.53.148) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2408.13; Mon, 28 Oct 2019 15:06:16 +0000 Received: from BYAPR05MB4248.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::dd02:9d00:19f6:b4e]) by BYAPR05MB4248.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::dd02:9d00:19f6:b4e%6]) with mapi id 15.20.2387.021; Mon, 28 Oct 2019 15:06:16 +0000 From: Guy Fedorkow To: Kathleen Moriarty CC: "rats@ietf.org" , Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay Thread-Topic: [Rats] Agenda Requests Thread-Index: AQHVjZ1ALoXnDqqTh0KeNBrV4DWh1qdwJsEg Content-Class: Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 15:06:16 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: msip_labels: MSIP_Label_0633b888-ae0d-4341-a75f-06e04137d755_Enabled=True; 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boundary="_000_BYAPR05MB42489264BCAB79D7E80C5B37BA660BYAPR05MB4248namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 71798eed-e524-401b-f4c1-08d75bb86170 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 28 Oct 2019 15:06:16.1370 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: RYwRVvbEQbs1N1876nbARSVz8083Tnq0US4QuciTy9v5bdXlfSdeGWhJrOhxlvMnpFsdwErK/sCcQn5rWJI0OQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR05MB6181 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.95,1.0.8 definitions=2019-10-28_06:2019-10-28,2019-10-28 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 adultscore=0 priorityscore=1501 impostorscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 clxscore=1015 mlxlogscore=999 phishscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 malwarescore=0 bulkscore=0 suspectscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-1908290000 definitions=main-1910280154 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Agenda Requests X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 15:07:13 -0000 --_000_BYAPR05MB42489264BCAB79D7E80C5B37BA660BYAPR05MB4248namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Kathleen, Could you put Jessica and myself down for a 20 minute slot to talk over t= he Security Considerations section we're adding to the RIV draft? We'll have it checked in by Nov 4. Thanks /guy From: RATS On Behalf Of Kathleen Moriarty Sent: Monday, October 28, 2019 10:37 AM To: rats@ietf.org Subject: [Rats] Agenda Requests Greetings! This is an official call for agenda items. We have received some and will = be sorting through those to post soon, but would like to make an official c= all for agenda items. -- Best regards, Kathleen Juniper Business Use Only --_000_BYAPR05MB42489264BCAB79D7E80C5B37BA660BYAPR05MB4248namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Hi Kathleen,

      Could you put Jessica and myself down for a 2= 0 minute slot to talk over the Security Considerations section we’re = adding to the RIV draft?

      We’ll have it checked in by Nov 4.=

    Thanks

    /guy

     

     

    From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org> O= n Behalf Of Kathleen Moriarty
    Sent: Monday, October 28, 2019 10:37 AM
    To: rats@ietf.org
    Subject: [Rats] Agenda Requests

     

    Greetings!

     

    This is an official call for agenda items.  We = have received some and will be sorting through those to post soon, but woul= d like to make an official call for agenda items.

     

    --

     

    Best regards,

    Kathleen

     

    Juniper Business Use Only

    --_000_BYAPR05MB42489264BCAB79D7E80C5B37BA660BYAPR05MB4248namp_-- From nobody Tue Oct 29 10:56:31 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92C7C120168 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 2019 10:56:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.997 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.997 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q3vB9-XzkJhD for ; Tue, 29 Oct 2019 10:56:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi1-x234.google.com (mail-oi1-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B31CF12082C for ; Tue, 29 Oct 2019 10:56:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x234.google.com with SMTP id k2so4588867oij.12 for ; Tue, 29 Oct 2019 10:56:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=joeumWhZ4wjSQG9ugixXXpLD+1kbghweSlLTmEDpW4I=; b=BT09Qr7030lI0sGw6PWHFePylbyrEBnglYGUEfVNM/Bf5pKiBkYKA+DVOy1JaDbZaL RB53b7Gx6q3Q8jI6xeig/dlGOyhRRQUWbv9DKeuK2amvMV3B9oSjqOWh5PnGBiaAhDqt CrTbeE0cnKDkfjvgyJn5q14x+JZjn0RY8ORmGDY7DQV22nYMboZRCGIlSZR5FsTubmpm q2l9Z+PT8IDYnP1q3QQ3jrBZtq8KvkUohJI4apCme2Rj6b3BGN7K3UNn/7JvQJaF9s+8 bnhThetmm7BTbsrfrkHQmwiwEKJb5GYMFcfEz/MEeQon3joqXJIm4q1CME2p0rw1VD6x j2gQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=joeumWhZ4wjSQG9ugixXXpLD+1kbghweSlLTmEDpW4I=; b=tXoSM4DMfEwWduQhGrBxGBcVg9zDTDzePkUA5paxchnH/oihN+sZtfnDKWoCFHWyaA 4sFKUi9hzJCPy4ILVMR3YVj0ARGRM1ltjnFcJWeLDuHl+bazpJQebI9qf5c64bd5lKZV ewgNeTRiFPYF5QrP3uhu3ZSl5iDyDNyzLJN4WoZFCN0trUw2ip/zQMTSlCGmIy0XufTh DrIR1/BZPIsxF+xMjZ6vT0cQ9k9MGx5ddPdWC0nZOe24gCkc6Jc32VAo98oCqqfzzDbv TAEIXIYf/J6Pn4p5yNEoQ5K+g+qU75sB6qLhh5IltjyFazc+Hjdo9qLluqZFLYjB7mXz qsFg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWbdDbFP4pCRpcGJcuart5cjncMLgwPffv1PWcqOFrpfxVSJnY2 xshQHG9CSGNrQNYUzazeCdHiRcj3tBo37R4tAji60u2I X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzHOUJwYg7bUOwO5D3I0u284NbxTmhUxf2jxGl87RhQg5vzA6QHD7pqzIGBOwgSAq2YskebU7iC0iu6c0yxw5g= X-Received: by 2002:aca:d509:: with SMTP id m9mr5007197oig.164.1572371787048; Tue, 29 Oct 2019 10:56:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Kathleen Moriarty Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 13:55:50 -0400 Message-ID: To: Guy Fedorkow Cc: "rats@ietf.org" , Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d26d0a0596105592" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Agenda Requests X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2019 17:56:30 -0000 --000000000000d26d0a0596105592 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Guy, Just to confirm, this will be remote and you won't have someone in-room presenting for you. Is that right? It's perfectly fine to do this and it can work well. Best regards, Kathleen On Mon, Oct 28, 2019 at 11:07 AM Guy Fedorkow wrote= : > Hi Kathleen, > > Could you put Jessica and myself down for a 20 minute slot to talk over > the Security Considerations section we=E2=80=99re adding to the RIV draft= ? > > We=E2=80=99ll have it checked in by Nov 4. > > Thanks > > /guy > > > > > > *From:* RATS *On Behalf Of * Kathleen Moriarty > *Sent:* Monday, October 28, 2019 10:37 AM > *To:* rats@ietf.org > *Subject:* [Rats] Agenda Requests > > > > Greetings! > > > > This is an official call for agenda items. We have received some and wil= l > be sorting through those to post soon, but would like to make an official > call for agenda items. > > > > -- > > > > Best regards, > > Kathleen > > > > Juniper Business Use Only > --=20 Best regards, Kathleen --000000000000d26d0a0596105592 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Hi=C2=A0Guy,

    Just to confirm, this will= be remote and you won't have someone in-room presenting for you.=C2=A0= Is that right?=C2=A0 It's perfectly fine to do this and it can work we= ll.

    Best regards,
    Kathleen
    On Mon, = Oct 28, 2019 at 11:07 AM Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net> wrote:

    Hi Kathleen,

    =C2=A0 Could you put Jessica and myself down for a 2= 0 minute slot to talk over the Security Considerations section we=E2=80=99r= e adding to the RIV draft?

    =C2=A0 We=E2=80=99ll have it checked in by Nov 4.=

    Thanks

    /guy

    =C2=A0

    =C2=A0

    From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of = Kathleen Moriarty
    Sent: Monday, October 28, 2019 10:37 AM
    To: rats@ietf.org=
    Subject: [Rats] Agenda Requests

    =C2=A0

    Greetings!

    =C2=A0

    This is an official call for agenda items.=C2=A0 We = have received some and will be sorting through those to post soon, but woul= d like to make an official call for agenda items.

    =C2=A0

    --

    =C2=A0

    Best regards,

    Kathleen

    =C2=A0

    Juniper Business Use Only<= u>



    --

    Best regards,
    Kathleen
    --000000000000d26d0a0596105592-- From nobody Wed Oct 30 11:15:56 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E8E6120909 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 2019 11:15:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.894 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.894 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gJotuNajvIgz for ; Wed, 30 Oct 2019 11:15:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p3plsmtpa06-06.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa06-06.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [173.201.192.107]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CA0D1120908 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 2019 11:15:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.122.0.122] ([45.56.150.85]) by :SMTPAUTH: with ESMTPA id PsVbi3lvYMRj5PsVci2k8g; Wed, 30 Oct 2019 11:15:53 -0700 From: Laurence Lundblade Message-Id: <7E2A796B-7F7F-4994-972F-01B12918FC19@island-resort.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_3464C22C-9F9E-4269-B5AE-9F75FC88C3D9" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 11:15:51 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: rats@ietf.org To: Kathleen Moriarty References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfIkHqnXygrM2cp73Knuj5FL4hkqTPzDRIrSub42lFdnzxX3xtn4Q42AR9iiBVNnAL4MryPSPtxY9XBFcPwRl0Z9YQ1RInXtSb+L6wofZJweEunS0fAxd mykjca9wSFE63W5X/SBRLPSRvHwOA+DqwLw/IS7vEx7EiUAEFtiTSVx4ykuKYyJ8rZUAetu16Kh/6OApyRMynudIzdCkW3pfQp4= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Agenda Requests X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2019 18:15:55 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_3464C22C-9F9E-4269-B5AE-9F75FC88C3D9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I=E2=80=99d like to request 60 minutes to work on current open EAT = issues: Detailed discussion on submods and nesting.=20 Boot state / debug as levels, not Booleans = (goal is to assign someone = from Arm and Intel to review). OEMID Clarifications PR =20 UEID size PR CWT cti, JWT jti and nonce claim = Claim optionality. = Should only be confirmation this can be closed. Claim characteristics PR . = Relates to above.=20 Follow links to GitHub for details (and comment sooner rather than later = if you can). I=E2=80=99d also like to request 30 minutes in Singapore to discuss when = or whether we work on the following: Software Inventory claims Measurement and integrity claims Public key claims These seem like very important claims to me for core use cases and EAT = would be only half-useful without them, but they will be hard work and = take time and thus likely to push EAT into late 2020 or 2021.=20 I know I=E2=80=99m asking for a lot of time (maybe it isn=E2=80=99t = possible). My reasons are: I would like to see EAT complete sooner (2020) rather than later = (2021=E2=80=A6) Engagement and comments on the EAT claims have been light; it=E2=80=99s = not clear there is consensus on many EAT claims I think EAT can make a lot of progress in parallel with architecture, = but that isn=E2=80=99t happening so much=20 Thanks LL > On Oct 28, 2019, at 7:36 AM, Kathleen Moriarty = wrote: >=20 > Greetings! >=20 > This is an official call for agenda items. We have received some and = will be sorting through those to post soon, but would like to make an = official call for agenda items. >=20 > --=20 >=20 > Best regards, > Kathleen > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats --Apple-Mail=_3464C22C-9F9E-4269-B5AE-9F75FC88C3D9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
    I=E2=80=99d like to request 60 minutes to work on current = open EAT issues:


    Follow links to GitHub for details (and comment sooner rather = than later if you can).

    I=E2=80=99d also like to request 30 minutes in Singapore to = discuss when or whether we work on the following:
    • Software Inventory claims
    • Measurement and = integrity claims
    • Public key = claims

    These seem like very important claims to me for core use = cases and EAT would be only half-useful without them, but they will be = hard work and take time and thus likely to push EAT into late 2020 or = 2021. 

    I = know I=E2=80=99m asking for a lot of time (maybe it isn=E2=80=99t = possible). My reasons are:
    • I would like to see EAT complete = sooner (2020) rather than later (2021=E2=80=A6)
    • Engagement and comments on the EAT claims have been light; = it=E2=80=99s not clear there is consensus on many EAT = claims
    • I= think EAT can make a lot of progress in parallel with architecture, but = that isn=E2=80=99t happening so much 

    Thanks

    LL



    On Oct = 28, 2019, at 7:36 AM, Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

    Greetings!

    This is an official call for agenda items.  We have = received some and will be sorting through those to post soon, but would = like to make an official call for agenda items.

    --

    Best = regards,
    Kathleen
    _______________________________________________
    RATS = mailing list
    RATS@ietf.org
    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats

    = --Apple-Mail=_3464C22C-9F9E-4269-B5AE-9F75FC88C3D9-- From nobody Wed Oct 30 23:25:49 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 417081200F7 for ; Wed, 30 Oct 2019 23:25:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 25BB9_gZfIXA for ; Wed, 30 Oct 2019 23:25:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) 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([169.254.6.211]) by DGGEMM405-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.3.20.213]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Thu, 31 Oct 2019 14:25:30 +0800 From: "Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)" To: Kathleen Moriarty , "Panwei (William)" CC: "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Rats] Agenda Requests Thread-Index: AQHVjZ1CZup+zuupEkWFue+epPJSv6d0S6yA Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 06:25:30 +0000 Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.33.46] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C02846B1344F344EB4FAA6FA7AF481F13E9E5626DGGEMM531MBSchi_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] =?utf-8?b?562U5aSNOiAgQWdlbmRhIFJlcXVlc3Rz?= X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 06:25:48 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from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YHUV85a33tVj for ; Thu, 31 Oct 2019 06:26:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot1-x32c.google.com (mail-ot1-x32c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::32c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 17254120048 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 2019 06:26:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot1-x32c.google.com with SMTP id h6so658027otk.1 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 2019 06:26:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=CVFroPk3AmiTai04Svg5J+js4L0GDijum5IdjEJxbZI=; b=WC3jeVP5+arLEcFZMN1RPcBXD3Uxg0mbVCs4SxKQRkLBz/HueufrTVICfju4X8ySzx gyHXsBKAwliK7HuHg4NuCVWNU5frjxcP5rHPIFZDLXPHmdNqxIvtXxQDSH/uePXhMToq TNRo/z3mfbJnd6e9L017GnVSd9k4nms0TJDmQXlfMstrl+6GRSxd/UBSAIM1UIyZu7GS 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SMTP id u25mr4493799otj.342.1572528418363; Thu, 31 Oct 2019 06:26:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Kathleen Moriarty Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 09:26:22 -0400 Message-ID: To: "Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)" Cc: "Panwei (William)" , "rats@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c6a163059634cde3" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Agenda Requests X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 13:27:00 -0000 --000000000000c6a163059634cde3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you, Frank. We'll figure out if we can fit it in soon and let you know. Best regards, Kathleen On Thu, Oct 31, 2019 at 2:25 AM Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept) wrote: > Hi Kathleen, > > If time permits, I would like to request a 15 minutes slot for introducin= g > our new individual draft: > > Draft > > time presenter > > draft-xia-rats-pubsub-model-01 15 > min Liang Xia > > > > Thanks a lot! > > > > B.R. > > Frank > > > > *=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:* RATS [mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org] *=E4= =BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 *Kathleen Moriarty > *=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4:* 2019=E5=B9=B410=E6=9C=8828=E6=97= =A5 22:37 > *=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA:* rats@ietf.org > *=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98:* [Rats] Agenda Requests > > > > Greetings! > > > > This is an official call for agenda items. We have received some and wil= l > be sorting through those to post soon, but would like to make an official > call for agenda items. > > > > -- > > > > Best regards, > > Kathleen > --=20 Best regards, Kathleen --000000000000c6a163059634cde3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Thank you, Frank.=C2=A0 We'll figure out if we can fit= it in soon and let you know.=C2=A0=C2=A0

    Best regards,<= /div>
    Kathleen

    On Thu, Oct 31, 2019 at 2:25 AM Xialiang (Frank, Ne= twork Standard & Patent Dept) <frank.xialiang@huawei.com> wrote:

    Hi Kathleen,<= /span>

    If time permits, I would li= ke to request a 15 minutes slot for introducing our new individual draft:

    =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 Draft=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 time=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 presenter

    draft-xia-rats-pubsub-model= -01=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 15= min=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= Liang Xia

    =C2=A0=

    Thanks a lot!=

    =C2=A0=

    B.R.

    Frank<= /p>

    =C2=A0=

    =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: RATS [ma= ilto:rats-bounce= s@ietf.org] =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 Kathleen Moriarty
    =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2019=E5=B9=B410=E6=9C=8828=E6=97=A5 22:37
    =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: rats@ie= tf.org
    =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: [Rats] Agenda Requests

    =C2=A0

    Greetings!=

    =C2=A0

    This is an official call for ag= enda items.=C2=A0 We have received some and will be sorting through those t= o post soon, but would like to make an official call for agenda items.

    =C2=A0

    --

    =C2=A0

    Best regards,

    Kathleen



    --

    Best regards,
    Kathleen
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boundary="_000_BYAPR05MB4248980FA30CDF1ABCCC7E78BA630BYAPR05MB4248namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 78d8307e-7a65-421d-7e48-08d75e384aad X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 31 Oct 2019 19:26:55.8516 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: VQ+m0fWKaLrJSDdqdYo3WXXJG+tRHYuTk82jkjJbRuLftt6eUWkEggAvqtD5uPO39H90YjehkfI0ZC+f9sY88A== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR05MB5496 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.95,1.0.8 definitions=2019-10-31_07:2019-10-30,2019-10-31 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 spamscore=0 bulkscore=0 suspectscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 priorityscore=1501 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 clxscore=1011 impostorscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-1908290000 definitions=main-1910310193 Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] RIV and the RATS architecture X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 19:27:16 -0000 --_000_BYAPR05MB4248980FA30CDF1ABCCC7E78BA630BYAPR05MB4248namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Dave, Thanks for your doc https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thaler-rats-archite= cture-00. Do you have a view as to how the TPM-based attestation described in RIV w= ould fit with the proposed categorization? https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-= 00 It doesn't seem to be a passport, since the attester only provides raw ev= idence, not a pre-approved passport It doesn't seem to be a background check, as it's the verifier that colle= cts and analyzes the evidence. I'm not sure it matters to RIV, as we haven't drawn much distinction betw= een the relying party and the verifier... As you say, if they're on the sa= me machine, the distinction is almost moot. And if they're not, I think th= e communication is out of scope for RIV (if not for RATS). But it would be= good ensure the architecture and the applications of it actually do fit to= gether... Thanks /guy Juniper Business Use Only --_000_BYAPR05MB4248980FA30CDF1ABCCC7E78BA630BYAPR05MB4248namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Hi Dave,

      Thanks for your doc https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thaler-rats-architecture-00.

      Do you have a view as to how the TPM-based at= testation described in RIV would fit with the proposed categorization?=

    https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fed= orkow-rats-network-device-attestation-00

     

      It doesn’t seem to be a passport, since= the attester only provides raw evidence, not a pre-approved passport<= /o:p>

      It doesn’t seem to be a background chec= k, as it’s the verifier that collects and analyzes the evidence.=

     

      I’m not sure it matters to RIV, as we h= aven’t drawn much distinction between the relying party and the verif= ier…  As you say, if they’re on the same machine, the dist= inction is almost moot.  And if they’re not, I think the communi= cation is out of scope for RIV (if not for RATS).  But it would be good ensu= re the architecture and the applications of it actually do fit togetherR= 30;

     

      Thanks

    /guy

     

     

     

     


    Juniper Business= Use Only

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[ci skip] From nobody Thu Oct 31 20:08:45 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6561C1208CA for ; Thu, 31 Oct 2019 20:08:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=github.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3DrEfMyaEpXZ for ; Thu, 31 Oct 2019 20:08:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out-3.smtp.github.com (out-3.smtp.github.com [192.30.252.194]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3D60412083D for ; Thu, 31 Oct 2019 20:08:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from github-lowworker-f144ac1.va3-iad.github.net (github-lowworker-f144ac1.va3-iad.github.net [10.48.16.59]) by smtp.github.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8746B2C130A for ; Thu, 31 Oct 2019 20:08:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=github.com; s=pf2014; t=1572577714; bh=oAtAzEIKXj4fdcfrqJJ0gncX3bf8MD7VClKBGcmrc7o=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:From; b=Bbg0EH1xXl5nVB3YYfK2zY9/NKlmcoEB91kIQ5GmKnLSPjXFed/cxPNAMQbAPLGpV 0WUALXcmyE2++cPzHNmoQHFta2QciJ1lwIK1RT1VaU7Qoi6KfvxLskmecO+VRUyha8 Foi5VtHQsnu0yJb6ouAG24kaIR6cmwxnUNHsWy8c= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 20:08:34 -0700 From: Henk Birkholz To: rats@ietf.org Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-GitHub-Recipient-Address: rats@ietf.org X-Auto-Response-Suppress: All Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] [ietf-rats-wg/eat] eb1d4c: Script updating issues at 2019-11-01T03:08:31Z. 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[ci skip] From nobody Thu Oct 31 20:11:05 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1519C12011A for ; Thu, 31 Oct 2019 20:11:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=github.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZpB46Rmgnwnu for ; Thu, 31 Oct 2019 20:11:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out-20.smtp.github.com (out-20.smtp.github.com [192.30.252.203]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D18CD1200F9 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 2019 20:11:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 20:11:01 -0700 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=github.com; s=pf2014; t=1572577861; bh=wQopLsOg/vYntx+jKd6HJJN+t9ozRNFmXmPMcwRoFDs=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:From; b=uoN3UHsPr1G6ez7DMnLgcpRBrf11VgBqJX65OZxIZtqh2HmRydcsXsd+oozXfyNIV G2v2UwyCmUm/0cphV63sntyDiIjs4Oz0Rg+GEBfZipGusyYFYoJQnPjnVQZynfdnd1 tkTE1kXH+86GrR3jr4tKgOlCDOtw6WmbE7Z+q8H8= From: Laurence Lundblade To: rats@ietf.org Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-GitHub-Recipient-Address: rats@ietf.org X-Auto-Response-Suppress: All Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] [ietf-rats-wg/eat] 5bfb9d: Revert "revamp of submods and nested tokens". It s... X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2019 03:11:04 -0000 Branch: refs/heads/master Home: https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat Commit: 5bfb9df8c6c6043a71bc98c140a100e4a0c278c6 https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/5bfb9df8c6c6043a71bc98c140a100e4a0c278c6 Author: Laurence Lundblade Date: 2019-10-31 (Thu, 31 Oct 2019) Changed paths: M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md Log Message: ----------- Revert "revamp of submods and nested tokens". It should be a PR, not a direct commit. This reverts commit c237b91135dcd940339e0860d33036e90dd9d941. From nobody Thu Oct 31 20:11:29 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC27612006D for ; Thu, 31 Oct 2019 20:11:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=github.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M9gaUBGBxEpI for ; Thu, 31 Oct 2019 20:11:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out-1.smtp.github.com (out-1.smtp.github.com [192.30.252.192]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 602851200F4 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 2019 20:11:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from github-lowworker-b19c547.va3-iad.github.net (github-lowworker-b19c547.va3-iad.github.net [10.48.17.66]) by smtp.github.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5841C609FB for ; Thu, 31 Oct 2019 20:11:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=github.com; s=pf2014; t=1572577884; bh=IFZ+Sh2UelyPdV9yKN8xFnInZelOoQpzY3SE0TB2Q4w=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:From; b=LQzDycqH5muyTXZcbSYxKUyE1PyZE5CsyIXT+vzdUkC8T3m2uzwNdGsIRirfuapLA pYRSSH8mnniXgFYyJmCzELWIioM0VGQQ6zAJJIBmMR7CpDaQLdxbxXcfHRjfb+5mRz fRF7XjZVh8fj5GCRWxgKkmb9iFTVFOfYVzexyVSU= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 20:11:24 -0700 From: Henk Birkholz To: rats@ietf.org Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-GitHub-Recipient-Address: rats@ietf.org X-Auto-Response-Suppress: All Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] [ietf-rats-wg/eat] 88dd19: Script updating gh-pages from 5bfb9df. [ci skip] X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2019 03:11:27 -0000 Branch: refs/heads/gh-pages Home: https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat Commit: 88dd19ccffcdd841653d2c5c8b4fa18f11c2b16c https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/88dd19ccffcdd841653d2c5c8b4fa18f11c2b16c Author: ID Bot Date: 2019-11-01 (Fri, 01 Nov 2019) Changed paths: M draft-ietf-rats-eat.html M draft-ietf-rats-eat.txt M index.html Log Message: ----------- Script updating gh-pages from 5bfb9df. [ci skip] From nobody Thu Oct 31 20:12:36 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 470F912013A for ; Thu, 31 Oct 2019 20:12:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=github.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TUf8a5ionJwk for ; Thu, 31 Oct 2019 20:12:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out-3.smtp.github.com (out-3.smtp.github.com [192.30.252.194]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 13ECD1200F4 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 2019 20:12:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from github-lowworker-d31a065.va3-iad.github.net (github-lowworker-d31a065.va3-iad.github.net [10.48.17.70]) by smtp.github.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B6FC2C14E5 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 2019 20:12:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=github.com; s=pf2014; t=1572577952; bh=d0xhnsMlJOZr2Uavq2BtWFkHFdZzgJeGOEgCQlysCYs=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:From; b=CN51H2WETsA+WehECCQaS31WtOfil4w2YD0r5vytoKeHbWdyQm2S2utESKCfs0YKA nuCz0Qh12V8gHsqa7MUzn/JzNI0RWbfxuKJiVIp/bDHXRSWwAh3DK2+zIk9hbB7fS5 DKRsBDnNibo2zQbxwyiaSNl0dWhcjEkOWSrkV8UI= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 20:12:32 -0700 From: Laurence Lundblade To: rats@ietf.org Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-GitHub-Recipient-Address: rats@ietf.org X-Auto-Response-Suppress: All Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] [ietf-rats-wg/eat] 5606f4: revamp of submods and nested tokens X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2019 03:12:34 -0000 Branch: refs/heads/submods_revamp Home: https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat Commit: 5606f48b28bf363aa1f7c7739c86a070188a197b https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/5606f48b28bf363aa1f7c7739c86a070188a197b Author: Laurence Lundblade Date: 2019-10-31 (Thu, 31 Oct 2019) Changed paths: M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md Log Message: ----------- revamp of submods and nested tokens From nobody Thu Oct 31 20:13:17 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CD361200F4 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 2019 20:13:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=github.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id luGogvpdy29d for ; Thu, 31 Oct 2019 20:13:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out-24.smtp.github.com (out-24.smtp.github.com [192.30.252.207]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 01F1A12006D for ; Thu, 31 Oct 2019 20:13:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from github-lowworker-f045d1f.ac4-iad.github.net (github-lowworker-f045d1f.ac4-iad.github.net [10.52.19.54]) by smtp.github.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 337716A0918 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 2019 20:13:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=github.com; s=pf2014; t=1572577994; bh=Uzw8o9AEbryvYY71r0mDTYoaLNnJO1qPAV616zTwl7E=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:From; b=HbDiR1ESD9V697Hj5MPBeZZ02ZAcN6mAX5fSTQkBX/XxTRwBwxlu/rrLUHbSElQSf S2H+DdvLgl4WxXpIqWxfMsie92J7+gVTGKhxfdLXocV2DXxy4IN2k4G+0CEiryAvPj M+lTamAH/gcXKGZoAMUwD5GR9iknO7o5cv3pOZcA= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 20:13:14 -0700 From: Henk Birkholz To: rats@ietf.org Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-GitHub-Recipient-Address: rats@ietf.org X-Auto-Response-Suppress: All Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] [ietf-rats-wg/eat] ec59ba: Script updating gh-pages from 5606f48. [ci skip] X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2019 03:13:16 -0000 Branch: refs/heads/gh-pages Home: https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat Commit: ec59baccafa3e55588750a52ad293477b50646be https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/ec59baccafa3e55588750a52ad293477b50646be Author: ID Bot Date: 2019-11-01 (Fri, 01 Nov 2019) Changed paths: M index.html A submods_revamp/draft-ietf-rats-eat.html A submods_revamp/draft-ietf-rats-eat.txt A submods_revamp/index.html Log Message: ----------- Script updating gh-pages from 5606f48. [ci skip] From nobody Thu Oct 31 20:13:24 2019 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C58CB120889 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 2019 20:13:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=github.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id r0kfxTWlXBI8 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 2019 20:13:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from out-23.smtp.github.com (out-23.smtp.github.com [192.30.252.206]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9DD13120831 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 2019 20:13:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from github-lowworker-5825cd4.ac4-iad.github.net (github-lowworker-5825cd4.ac4-iad.github.net [10.52.22.68]) by smtp.github.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFA0E660D06 for ; Thu, 31 Oct 2019 20:13:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=github.com; s=pf2014; t=1572577997; bh=8fokDQ7t5//eCBmPNbdeyJdWOZ5QR4ycTcSUJ5FVBsQ=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:From; b=DDp3K52OaoPHfv6RVcXcdUYmYw6sz5iFBCiUSfWV3m1a/eNMNVP6/zWHs3Hr7VeF/ ju1F76IdpstIi3knHqr/mtLb1IHsrUvfiJWFdqUPevLDpitvhWstetmmHMOtR9rUK+ Wi9HWcjSWwVkvDlNtBopUSK2jvzu/gIEPVaVskR0= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 20:13:17 -0700 From: Henk Birkholz To: rats@ietf.org Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-GitHub-Recipient-Address: rats@ietf.org X-Auto-Response-Suppress: All Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] [ietf-rats-wg/eat] 24ff20: Script updating issues at 2019-11-01T03:13:15Z. [c... X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Nov 2019 03:13:20 -0000 Branch: refs/heads/gh-pages Home: https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat Commit: 24ff207ef68f261617d3a7b1e186dea4dc70f23b https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/24ff207ef68f261617d3a7b1e186dea4dc70f23b Author: ID Bot Date: 2019-11-01 (Fri, 01 Nov 2019) Changed paths: M pulls.json Log Message: ----------- Script updating issues at 2019-11-01T03:13:15Z. [ci skip]