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From: "Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>
To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Dynamic Systems in IETF RATS (was Re: [Rats] 3 Use cases)
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Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2019 11:59:56 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/gkafMkSZfHdJoUGxA54B7FjcYWc>
Subject: Re: [Rats] Dynamic Systems in IETF RATS (was Re:  3 Use cases)
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Hello Michael,

If think you got both cases perfect there...actually they are the two use c=
ases we are working on, so...


But in both cases, regardless of the network, there is a requirement for so=
me dynamicity in the "pre known" devices. So for a rail environment the set=
 of devices (eg: wagons) is known and combinations of those could be precal=
culated. For a medical system it becomes much more difficult in that the se=
t of devices will potentially change rapidly.

Thinking about these cases suggests to me that we would need t concentrate =
more on the introduction protocols between attestable device and attestor -=
 more work to be done here

And yes, the nightmare scenario is one where Scotty has to wait for the att=
estation server

Ian



--

Dr. Ian Oliver

Cybersecurity Research

Distinguished Member of Technical Staff

Nokia Bell Labs

+358 50 483 6237

________________________________
From: Michael Richardson
Sent: Monday, 07 October 2019 15:32
To: Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)
Cc: rats@ietf.org
Subject: Dynamic Systems in IETF RATS (was Re: [Rats] 3 Use cases)


Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com> wrote:
    > Dynamic Systems

    > All current integrity mechanism assume a certain degree of fixed
    > properties, eg: TPM's CRTM/SRTM, and known configurations. A case
    > exists where a set of, say, IoT devices each with integrity
    > measurements are attested by some Edge node. The Edge node may combin=
e
    > the IoT device measurements into a single measurement (eg: Merkel
    > Tree). If the configuration of IoT device changes, particuarly in
    > relation to availability of device, then this combined measurement wi=
ll
    > change. This changed measurement however may be a valid configuration=
.

    > For example, in a medical case, the set of measurement devices may be
    > rapidly changing due to necessity of network provisioning, device
    > availabiltiy etc, but the permutations of devices may still be valid.

So you are describing a system where there is an assembly of devices.
I have a few questions and want to offer a two categories:
1) the network's view of the devices is transparent.  That is, each device
   in the assembly is reachable by the network either through L2-bridging,
   L3-routing (facilited maybe by DHCPv6-PD), or because all devices are
   just connected to the same "wifi" or LLN.

2) the network's view of the devices is opaque: the network only sees some
   gateway device and perhaps all interaction is via an application layer g=
ateway.

Case (2) seems that the layer of indirection means the assembly
gateway/controller should probably be a relying party for the devices,
and should communicate it's configuration to an attester in order to valida=
te
it's configuration.  The network would see the resulting attestion of the
aggregate.  I don't see anything surprising or new here. Just a recursive
application of RATS.

Case (1) is therefore the more interesting case, I think.
I imagine, yes, some health care situation where the assembly is the hospit=
al
room, and the devices are the individual monitors.  The room needs to attes=
t
to it's ability to deal/collect the correct/complete set of information, an=
d
one can see that the failure (or the deplection) of some device leads to th=
e
room being "unviable", and requiring attention.

I also was thinking about an assembly that is a passenger-rail coach arrang=
ed
in a set.  Each has a series of safety sensors that the engine must
interrogate directly. But, it's not necessary for every sensor in every coa=
ch
to be functional, as there is some redundancy, not just within each vehicle=
,
but also because there are multiple vehicles.

=3D=3D=3D

In thinking about this, I also thought of some sf movie (Expanse, Star Trek=
,
Star Wars), where sensors and sub-systems get blown up/overloaded, and need
to be patched.  Chewbacca is waiting for the attestation system to agree th=
at
all parts are installed correctly, and Han and R2D2 are effecting repairs..=
. A
very dynamical system; but you don't get to lightspeed until is sure it won=
't
just kill everyone onboard.  ...
Scotty: "Captain! I canna give you warp speed until the wee attestations se=
ttle."

--
]               Never tell me the odds!                 | ipv6 mesh network=
s [
]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works        | network architect=
  [
]     mcr@sandelman.ca  http://www.sandelman.ca/        |   ruby on rails  =
  [




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Hello Michael,</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
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: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
If think you got both cases perfect there...actually they are the two use c=
ases we are working on, so...</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
But in both cases, regardless of the network, there is a requirement for so=
me dynamicity in the &quot;pre known&quot; devices. So for a rail environme=
nt the set of devices (eg: wagons) is known and combinations of those could=
 be precalculated. For a medical system it
 becomes much more difficult in that the set of devices will potentially ch=
ange rapidly.</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
Thinking about these cases suggests to me that we would need t concentrate =
more on the introduction protocols between attestable device and attestor -=
 more work to be done here</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
And yes, the nightmare scenario is one where Scotty has to wait for the att=
estation server</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
Ian<br>
</div>
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: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
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</div>
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<br>
</div>
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r: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;">
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;margin-top:0; margin-bottom=
:0">-- <br>
</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;margin-top:0; margin-bottom=
:0">Dr. Ian Oliver</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;margin-top:0; margin-bottom=
:0">Cybersecurity Research<br>
</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;margin-top:0; margin-bottom=
:0">Distinguished Member of Technical Staff</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;margin-top:0; margin-bottom=
:0">Nokia Bell Labs</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;margin-top:0; margin-bottom=
:0">&#43;358 50 483 6237<br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
<hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block; width:98%;">
<b>From:</b> Michael Richardson<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, 07 October 2019 15:32<br>
<b>To:</b> Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> rats@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Dynamic Systems in IETF RATS (was Re: [Rats] 3 Use cases)
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"BodyFragment"><font size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;=
">
<div class=3D"PlainText"><br>
Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) &lt;ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com&gt; wrote=
:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; Dynamic Systems<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; All current integrity mechanism assume a certain de=
gree of fixed<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; properties, eg: TPM's CRTM/SRTM, and known configur=
ations. A case<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; exists where a set of, say, IoT devices each with i=
ntegrity<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; measurements are attested by some Edge node. The Ed=
ge node may combine<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; the IoT device measurements into a single measureme=
nt (eg: Merkel<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; Tree). If the configuration of IoT device changes, =
particuarly in<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; relation to availability of device, then this combi=
ned measurement will<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; change. This changed measurement however may be a v=
alid configuration.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; For example, in a medical case, the set of measurem=
ent devices may be<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; rapidly changing due to necessity of network provis=
ioning, device<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; availabiltiy etc, but the permutations of devices m=
ay still be valid.<br>
<br>
So you are describing a system where there is an assembly of devices.<br>
I have a few questions and want to offer a two categories:<br>
1) the network's view of the devices is transparent.&nbsp; That is, each de=
vice<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; in the assembly is reachable by the network either through L2-=
bridging,<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; L3-routing (facilited maybe by DHCPv6-PD), or because all devi=
ces are<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; just connected to the same &quot;wifi&quot; or LLN.<br>
<br>
2) the network's view of the devices is opaque: the network only sees some<=
br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; gateway device and perhaps all interaction is via an applicati=
on layer gateway.<br>
<br>
Case (2) seems that the layer of indirection means the assembly<br>
gateway/controller should probably be a relying party for the devices,<br>
and should communicate it's configuration to an attester in order to valida=
te<br>
it's configuration.&nbsp; The network would see the resulting attestion of =
the<br>
aggregate.&nbsp; I don't see anything surprising or new here. Just a recurs=
ive<br>
application of RATS.<br>
<br>
Case (1) is therefore the more interesting case, I think.<br>
I imagine, yes, some health care situation where the assembly is the hospit=
al<br>
room, and the devices are the individual monitors.&nbsp; The room needs to =
attest<br>
to it's ability to deal/collect the correct/complete set of information, an=
d<br>
one can see that the failure (or the deplection) of some device leads to th=
e<br>
room being &quot;unviable&quot;, and requiring attention.<br>
<br>
I also was thinking about an assembly that is a passenger-rail coach arrang=
ed<br>
in a set.&nbsp; Each has a series of safety sensors that the engine must<br=
>
interrogate directly. But, it's not necessary for every sensor in every coa=
ch<br>
to be functional, as there is some redundancy, not just within each vehicle=
,<br>
but also because there are multiple vehicles.<br>
<br>
=3D=3D=3D<br>
<br>
In thinking about this, I also thought of some sf movie (Expanse, Star Trek=
,<br>
Star Wars), where sensors and sub-systems get blown up/overloaded, and need=
<br>
to be patched.&nbsp; Chewbacca is waiting for the attestation system to agr=
ee that<br>
all parts are installed correctly, and Han and R2D2 are effecting repairs..=
. A<br>
very dynamical system; but you don't get to lightspeed until is sure it won=
't<br>
just kill everyone onboard.&nbsp; ...<br>
Scotty: &quot;Captain! I canna give you warp speed until the wee attestatio=
ns settle.&quot;<br>
<br>
-- <br>
]&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp; Never tell me the odds!&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | ipv6 mesh network=
s [ <br>
]&nbsp;&nbsp; Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | network architect&nbsp; [ <br>
]&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; mcr@sandelman.ca&nbsp; <a href=3D"http://www.sand=
elman.ca/" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noopener noreferrer" data-auth=3D"NotAp=
plicable" style=3D"">
http://www.sandelman.ca/</a>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nb=
sp;&nbsp; ruby on rails&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [ <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
</span></font></div>
</body>
</html>

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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/kWYhVdUEJ1ztSt7_WUzYdhe-5hI>
Subject: Re: [Rats] Data Attestation (was Re:  3 Use cases)
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   Use case name:  Data Attestation and Provenance
   Who will use it:    End users (though in a hidden manner)
   Attesting Party:   ?
   Relying Party:    ?
   Attestation type:  Passport or Background Check.... yes
   Claims used:
   Description:

        When data is received from a device, it is not only signed by that =
device (cf: JWT) but also contains information about the state of the devic=
e,. For example, the data structure might be:

    {      data: {     DATA,  QUOTE },   hash(data),  signature(hash(data) =
 }

Ian


--

Dr. Ian Oliver

Cybersecurity Research

Distinguished Member of Technical Staff

Nokia Bell Labs

+358 50 483 6237

________________________________
From: Michael Richardson
Sent: Monday, 07 October 2019 14:39
To: Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)
Cc: rats@ietf.org
Subject: Data Attestation (was Re: [Rats] 3 Use cases)


Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com> wrote:
    > Data Attestation

    > A piece of data received from a trusted element may itself contain
    > information about the configuration of that device when that data was
    > received. This might be a single measurement or a combination of
    > measurements over time bounded by a session or transacition.

    > In this use case we continue the chain-of-trust up from the device
    > firmware/operating environment to the data. This enables that once a
    > data packet is received, it's integrity can be checked (cf: JWT) and
    > this information also be traced to the device that produced that
    > data. The data and device then can be attested together.

This use case seems similar to the the geographic cases, but also to the FI=
DO
use cases, where one needs to know the state of the device that took the
biometric reading in order to know if the biometric is useful.

Can I ask you to fill in my template:

   Use case name:
   Who will use it:
   Attesting Party:
   Relying Party:
   Attestation type:  Passport or Background Check
   Claims used:
   Description:

--
]               Never tell me the odds!                 | ipv6 mesh network=
s [
]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works        | network architect=
  [
]     mcr@sandelman.ca  http://www.sandelman.ca/        |   ruby on rails  =
  [



--_000_AM0PR0702MB3746FC1C2A9200D26C0B113E8F620AM0PR0702MB3746_
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<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-=
1">
<style type=3D"text/css" style=3D"display:none;"> P {margin-top:0;margin-bo=
ttom:0;} </style>
</head>
<body dir=3D"ltr">
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
<font size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt">&nbsp;&nbsp; Use case name:=
&nbsp; Data Attestation and Provenance<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; Who will use it:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; End users (though in a hidd=
en manner)<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; Attesting Party:&nbsp;&nbsp; ?<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; Relying Party:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ?<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; Attestation type:&nbsp; Passport or Background Check.... yes<b=
r>
&nbsp;&nbsp; Claims used:&nbsp; <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; Description:</span></font></div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
<font size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt"><br>
</span></font></div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
<font size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; When data is received from a device, it is not only signed =
by that device (cf: JWT) but also contains information about the state of t=
he device,. For example, the data structure might be:</span></font></div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
<font size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt"><br>
</span></font></div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
<font size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; {&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; data: {&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; DATA,&nbsp; QUOTE }=
,&nbsp;&nbsp; hash(data),&nbsp; signature(hash(data)&nbsp; }</span></font><=
/div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
<font size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt"><br>
</span></font></div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
<font size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt">Ian</span></font><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div id=3D"Signature">
<div id=3D"divtagdefaultwrapper" dir=3D"ltr" style=3D"font-size: 12pt; colo=
r: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;">
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;margin-top:0; margin-bottom=
:0">-- <br>
</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;margin-top:0; margin-bottom=
:0">Dr. Ian Oliver</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;margin-top:0; margin-bottom=
:0">Cybersecurity Research<br>
</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;margin-top:0; margin-bottom=
:0">Distinguished Member of Technical Staff</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;margin-top:0; margin-bottom=
:0">Nokia Bell Labs</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;margin-top:0; margin-bottom=
:0">&#43;358 50 483 6237<br>
</p>
</div>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
<hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block; width:98%;">
<b>From:</b> Michael Richardson<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, 07 October 2019 14:39<br>
<b>To:</b> Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> rats@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Data Attestation (was Re: [Rats] 3 Use cases)
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"BodyFragment"><font size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;=
">
<div class=3D"PlainText"><br>
Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) &lt;ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com&gt; wrote=
:<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; Data Attestation<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; A piece of data received from a trusted element may=
 itself contain<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; information about the configuration of that device =
when that data was<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; received. This might be a single measurement or a c=
ombination of<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; measurements over time bounded by a session or tran=
sacition.<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; In this use case we continue the chain-of-trust up =
from the device<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; firmware/operating environment to the data. This en=
ables that once a<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; data packet is received, it's integrity can be chec=
ked (cf: JWT) and<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; this information also be traced to the device that =
produced that<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &gt; data. The data and device then can be attested toge=
ther.<br>
<br>
This use case seems similar to the the geographic cases, but also to the FI=
DO<br>
use cases, where one needs to know the state of the device that took the<br=
>
biometric reading in order to know if the biometric is useful.<br>
<br>
Can I ask you to fill in my template:<br>
<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; Use case name:&nbsp; <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; Who will use it:&nbsp; <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; Attesting Party:&nbsp; <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; Relying Party:&nbsp; <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; Attestation type:&nbsp; Passport or Background Check<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; Claims used:&nbsp; <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; Description:<br>
<br>
-- <br>
]&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp; Never tell me the odds!&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | ipv6 mesh network=
s [ <br>
]&nbsp;&nbsp; Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | network architect&nbsp; [ <br>
]&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; mcr@sandelman.ca&nbsp; <a href=3D"http://www.sand=
elman.ca/" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noopener noreferrer" data-auth=3D"NotAp=
plicable" style=3D"">
http://www.sandelman.ca/</a>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nb=
sp;&nbsp; ruby on rails&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; [ <br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <br>
<br>
</div>
</span></font></div>
</body>
</html>

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From: H Y <yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2019 21:08:06 +0900
Message-ID: <CAA8pjUMnQ7defSFS8Wz6uw5V1ahiGZMUdSrgmwM6Bh25WN8Ohw@mail.gmail.com>
To: rats@ietf.org
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="00000000000070f8d7059647d2c1"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/jEJe0INRLaXBQ8Ho8T8vpTC0gyA>
Subject: [Rats] About current RATS drafts
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--00000000000070f8d7059647d2c1
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Hi all,

I'm Yuhei Hayashi, network security researcher of NTT in Japan. I
learned about the existence of RATS WG at IETF 105.

I'm interested in the work of RATS WG and I'm trying to understand it.
So, I'm firstly trying to understand which drafts contain the
standards listed in the charter.

I will attach the result of organizing it from my own point of view.
I'm glad if you confirm that my understanding is correct, if possible.

Thanks,
Yuhei
-- 
----------------------------------
Yuuhei HAYASHI
yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com
----------------------------------

--00000000000070f8d7059647d2c1
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From nobody Fri Nov  1 05:20:55 2019
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From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] About current RATS drafts
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Hello Yuhei,

welcome :)

I think your survey is a quite astute representation of the current state.

Please note, that the "information-model" I-D was intended to kickstart 
the discussion about "where do the definitions of information elements 
go", it might not survive the outcome, or might become the hub document 
for the information model and how it is supposed to be extended, or 
absorbed by another doc - that is not clear yet.

Also, while EAT is currently placed in the "attestation evidence flow" 
(Claim) scope and not in the "attestation provision flow" (Assertion) 
scope, EAT is extendable and it might make sense to create EAT flavors 
for the other scope later, if required.

Current planning also includes to remove architectural text from the EAT 
I-D, but that requires some resolve (aka WG consensus) on how to proceed 
with the architecture I-D.

Having said that, everything I did not comment on seems to be right 
where it should be. Other comments?

Viele Grüße,

Henk

On 01.11.19 13:08, H Y wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I'm Yuhei Hayashi, network security researcher of NTT in Japan. I
> learned about the existence of RATS WG at IETF 105.
> 
> I'm interested in the work of RATS WG and I'm trying to understand it.
> So, I'm firstly trying to understand which drafts contain the
> standards listed in the charter.
> 
> I will attach the result of organizing it from my own point of view.
> I'm glad if you confirm that my understanding is correct, if possible.
> 
> Thanks,
> Yuhei
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
> 


From nobody Fri Nov  1 07:25:08 2019
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Hello,

A frame up that works for me is to think about 1) the claims, the =
attestation format and its details and 2) the transport / conveyance and =
its details.

In the TPM/TCG world the claims and attestation format is locked down by =
what TPM chips do today. It is a set of registers that hold hash values =
used to measure software.  In the EAT world, which typically implements =
on fully functional CPUs, the claims and attestation format is not at =
all locked down and our work is to define it (the eat draft).

A lot of the network and router folks have been putting TPMs into their =
routers and now need a way to get the TPM output off the router to the =
network management center. This world runs off of Yang protocols. The =
main interest there is a very specific Yang-based way to move TPM =
output. This is the yang, tuda and pubsub drafts.

The EAT use cases are more about TEE=E2=80=99s and lining up with =
end-user-application-oriented uses like FIDO and the Android key store. =
They make use of all the existing transports used by application =
protocol (mainly HTTP) so there=E2=80=99s no worry about defining =
transport.

I think a few of us see EAT as the more general and flexible attestation =
format that will eventually replace the TPM format. Because EAT can use =
CBOR and COSE which are carefully designed for constrained devices there =
is some hope that it can go into TPM-like HW.

The architecture draft is trying to tie the two together in a sort of =
unified field theory. Seems possible, but hard to me.

LL





> On Nov 1, 2019, at 5:08 AM, H Y <yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hi all,
>=20
> I'm Yuhei Hayashi, network security researcher of NTT in Japan. I
> learned about the existence of RATS WG at IETF 105.
>=20
> I'm interested in the work of RATS WG and I'm trying to understand it.
> So, I'm firstly trying to understand which drafts contain the
> standards listed in the charter.
>=20
> I will attach the result of organizing it from my own point of view.
> I'm glad if you confirm that my understanding is correct, if possible.
>=20
> Thanks,
> Yuhei
> --=20
> ----------------------------------
> Yuuhei HAYASHI
> yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com
> ----------------------------------
> <RATS_drafts.pdf>_______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats


--Apple-Mail=_CC279F7F-A670-4759-9E9F-1F2FE7B021A7
Content-Type: multipart/related; type="text/html";
 boundary="Apple-Mail=_6BCBA834-41CE-4D2B-82C2-7ED64162049C"


--Apple-Mail=_6BCBA834-41CE-4D2B-82C2-7ED64162049C
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Hello,</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">A frame up that works for me is to think about 1) the claims, =
the attestation format and its details and 2) the transport / conveyance =
and its details.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">In the TPM/TCG world the claims and attestation format is =
locked down by what TPM chips do today. It is a set of registers that =
hold hash values used to measure software. &nbsp;In the EAT world, which =
typically implements on fully functional CPUs, the claims and =
attestation format is not at all locked down and our work is to define =
it (the eat draft).</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">A lot of the network and router folks have been putting TPMs =
into their routers and now need a way to get the TPM output off the =
router to the network management center. This world runs off of Yang =
protocols. The main interest there is a very specific Yang-based way to =
move TPM output. This is the yang, tuda and pubsub drafts.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The EAT use cases are =
more about TEE=E2=80=99s and lining up with =
end-user-application-oriented uses like FIDO and the Android key store. =
They make use of all the existing transports used by application =
protocol (mainly HTTP) so there=E2=80=99s no worry about defining =
transport.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I =
think a few of us see EAT as the more general and flexible attestation =
format that will eventually replace the TPM format. Because EAT can use =
CBOR and COSE which are carefully designed for constrained devices there =
is some hope that it can go into TPM-like HW.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The architecture draft is trying to tie =
the two together in a sort of unified field theory. Seems possible, but =
hard to me.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><img apple-inline=3D"yes" =
id=3D"5792C9BF-1BB8-4515-9A7F-B13BB3ED04AF" =
src=3D"cid:09B1D4B1-6CC4-4A76-852B-736529B4D080" class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Nov 1, 2019, at 5:08 AM, H Y &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">Hi =
all,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I'm Yuhei Hayashi, network security =
researcher of NTT in Japan. I<br class=3D"">learned about the existence =
of RATS WG at IETF 105.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I'm interested in =
the work of RATS WG and I'm trying to understand it.<br class=3D"">So, =
I'm firstly trying to understand which drafts contain the<br =
class=3D"">standards listed in the charter.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I=
 will attach the result of organizing it from my own point of view.<br =
class=3D"">I'm glad if you confirm that my understanding is correct, if =
possible.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Thanks,<br class=3D"">Yuhei<br =
class=3D"">-- <br class=3D"">----------------------------------<br =
class=3D"">Yuuhei HAYASHI<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com</a><br =
class=3D"">----------------------------------<br class=3D""><span =
id=3D"cid:f_k2g39q2i0">&lt;RATS_drafts.pdf&gt;</span>_____________________=
__________________________<br class=3D"">RATS mailing list<br =
class=3D"">RATS@ietf.org<br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=

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From nobody Fri Nov  1 07:46:48 2019
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Subject: [Rats] EAT material for Singapore
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Hi folks,

Rather than publish a new EAT draft for Singapore we have pull requests =
for you to review. The hope is for consensus on them in Singapore after =
which they will be integrated into a new EAT draft published after =
Singapore. Here=E2=80=99s the pull requests:

Submodules <https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/pull/43> =E2=80=94 This =
update unifies submodules and nested EATs so they both occur in the =
=E2=80=9Csubmods=E2=80=9D part of a token. It clarifies inheritance =
(there is none), simplifies naming of submodules, and defines attachment =
type.

UEID <https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/pull/35> =E2=80=94 This update =
includes a statistical analysis based on the birthday problem to justify =
upping the number of its bits required to 256.

OEMID <https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/pull/41> =E2=80=94 This =
update fills in the details on the use IEEE MA-L and Company IDs to =
identify device manufacturers

Security Considerations <https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/pull/28> =
=E2=80=94 This improves the security considerations section.

Boot state and debug <https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/pull/36> =E2=80=94=
 This update makes the debug state description a 4-state variable rather =
than 4 Booleans.

Nonce <https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/pull/42> =E2=80=94 This =
updates lines up the token identifiers and nonce from JWT, specifically =
clarifies that the nonce comes from the relying party.

General Claims Characteristics =
<https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/pull/7> =E2=80=94 This describes =
some conventions and goals when defining new attestation claims.

If you click on the links above and then the =E2=80=9CFiles changed=E2=80=9D=
 tab, you can see the text of each. You can comment in email, but it is =
better if you comment in GitHub on the pull request itself so it is more =
easily tracked.

LL=

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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Hi =
folks,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Rather than =
publish a new EAT draft for Singapore we have pull requests for you to =
review. The hope is for consensus on them in Singapore after which they =
will be integrated into a new EAT draft published after Singapore. =
Here=E2=80=99s the pull requests:</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; =
padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/pull/43" =
class=3D"">Submodules</a>&nbsp;=E2=80=94 This update unifies submodules =
and nested EATs so they both occur in the =E2=80=9Csubmods=E2=80=9D part =
of a token. It clarifies inheritance (there is none), simplifies naming =
of submodules, and defines attachment type.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/pull/35" =
class=3D"">UEID</a>&nbsp;=E2=80=94 This update includes a statistical =
analysis based on the birthday problem to justify upping the number of =
its bits required to 256.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><a href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/pull/41" =
class=3D"">OEMID</a>&nbsp;=E2=80=94 This update fills in the details on =
the use IEEE MA-L and Company IDs to identify device =
manufacturers</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><a=
 href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/pull/28" class=3D"">Security =
Considerations</a>&nbsp;=E2=80=94 This improves the security =
considerations section.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><a href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/pull/36" =
class=3D"">Boot state and debug</a>&nbsp;=E2=80=94 This update makes the =
debug state description a 4-state variable rather than 4 =
Booleans.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/pull/42" =
class=3D"">Nonce</a>&nbsp;=E2=80=94 This updates lines up the token =
identifiers and nonce from JWT, specifically clarifies that the nonce =
comes from the relying party.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/pull/7" class=3D"">General =
Claims Characteristics</a>&nbsp;=E2=80=94 This describes some =
conventions and goals when defining new attestation claims.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></blockquote>If you click on the links =
above and then the =E2=80=9CFiles changed=E2=80=9D tab, you can see the =
text of each. You can comment in email, but it is better if you comment =
in GitHub on the pull request itself so it is more easily tracked.<div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">LL</div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_62C0D968-DC26-4060-AA27-041839C87AB7--


From nobody Fri Nov  1 07:57:52 2019
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To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, H Y <yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com>
CC: <rats@ietf.org>
References: <CAA8pjUMnQ7defSFS8Wz6uw5V1ahiGZMUdSrgmwM6Bh25WN8Ohw@mail.gmail.com> <26A6D463-2635-456F-B0F9-78075B07FDC4@island-resort.com>
From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2019 15:57:37 +0100
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Subject: Re: [Rats] About current RATS drafts
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Hi Laurence,

good point. There are basically two primary focuses here, I think:

1.) Evidence that includes Trustworthy Claims about the Attester, and
2.) Evidence that includes Claims about the Trustworthiness of the Attester.

In 1.) you can put trust into the Veracity of Evidence due to the 
attestation Provenance, in 2.) you are given the decision basis for 
assessing the Trustworthiness/Integrity of the attestation Provenance.

Laurence, please correct me if I am wrong, but the current EAT draft 
focuses on 1.). Is that correct?

Viele Grüße,

Henk

On 01.11.19 15:25, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> A frame up that works for me is to think about 1) the claims, the 
> attestation format and its details and 2) the transport / conveyance and 
> its details.
> 
> In the TPM/TCG world the claims and attestation format is locked down by 
> what TPM chips do today. It is a set of registers that hold hash values 
> used to measure software.  In the EAT world, which typically implements 
> on fully functional CPUs, the claims and attestation format is not at 
> all locked down and our work is to define it (the eat draft).
> 
> A lot of the network and router folks have been putting TPMs into their 
> routers and now need a way to get the TPM output off the router to the 
> network management center. This world runs off of Yang protocols. The 
> main interest there is a very specific Yang-based way to move TPM 
> output. This is the yang, tuda and pubsub drafts.
> 
> The EAT use cases are more about TEE’s and lining up with 
> end-user-application-oriented uses like FIDO and the Android key store. 
> They make use of all the existing transports used by application 
> protocol (mainly HTTP) so there’s no worry about defining transport.
> 
> I think a few of us see EAT as the more general and flexible attestation 
> format that will eventually replace the TPM format. Because EAT can use 
> CBOR and COSE which are carefully designed for constrained devices there 
> is some hope that it can go into TPM-like HW.
> 
> The architecture draft is trying to tie the two together in a sort of 
> unified field theory. Seems possible, but hard to me.
> 
> LL
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Nov 1, 2019, at 5:08 AM, H Y <yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com 
>> <mailto:yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I'm Yuhei Hayashi, network security researcher of NTT in Japan. I
>> learned about the existence of RATS WG at IETF 105.
>>
>> I'm interested in the work of RATS WG and I'm trying to understand it.
>> So, I'm firstly trying to understand which drafts contain the
>> standards listed in the charter.
>>
>> I will attach the result of organizing it from my own point of view.
>> I'm glad if you confirm that my understanding is correct, if possible.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Yuhei
>> -- 
>> ----------------------------------
>> Yuuhei HAYASHI
>> yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com <mailto:yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com>
>> ----------------------------------
>> <RATS_drafts.pdf>_______________________________________________
>> RATS mailing list
>> RATS@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
> 


From nobody Fri Nov  1 08:24:58 2019
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Hi Henk,

good point.

Yes, EAT has been focused on 1) below. However it seems we might expand =
EAT to 2) especially considering that 2) is not constrained by the TPM.  =
I=E2=80=99ve added an issue =
<https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/issues/44> to the EAT GitHub to =
track this possible work.

Here=E2=80=99s two examples:

The input to the verifier may be software measurements (TPM or EAT =
format). The output of the verifier might be a Boolean that the =
measurements were correct.

Some implicit claims might be made explicit. For example, if the =
verifier knows that the device will never send an attestation is the =
boot and debug state are not locked down, then the verifier can add =
those claims.

LL


> On Nov 1, 2019, at 7:57 AM, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Laurence,
>=20
> good point. There are basically two primary focuses here, I think:
>=20
> 1.) Evidence that includes Trustworthy Claims about the Attester, and
> 2.) Evidence that includes Claims about the Trustworthiness of the =
Attester.
>=20
> In 1.) you can put trust into the Veracity of Evidence due to the =
attestation Provenance, in 2.) you are given the decision basis for =
assessing the Trustworthiness/Integrity of the attestation Provenance.
>=20
> Laurence, please correct me if I am wrong, but the current EAT draft =
focuses on 1.). Is that correct?
>=20
> Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>=20
> Henk
>=20
> On 01.11.19 15:25, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>> Hello,
>> A frame up that works for me is to think about 1) the claims, the =
attestation format and its details and 2) the transport / conveyance and =
its details.
>> In the TPM/TCG world the claims and attestation format is locked down =
by what TPM chips do today. It is a set of registers that hold hash =
values used to measure software.  In the EAT world, which typically =
implements on fully functional CPUs, the claims and attestation format =
is not at all locked down and our work is to define it (the eat draft).
>> A lot of the network and router folks have been putting TPMs into =
their routers and now need a way to get the TPM output off the router to =
the network management center. This world runs off of Yang protocols. =
The main interest there is a very specific Yang-based way to move TPM =
output. This is the yang, tuda and pubsub drafts.
>> The EAT use cases are more about TEE=E2=80=99s and lining up with =
end-user-application-oriented uses like FIDO and the Android key store. =
They make use of all the existing transports used by application =
protocol (mainly HTTP) so there=E2=80=99s no worry about defining =
transport.
>> I think a few of us see EAT as the more general and flexible =
attestation format that will eventually replace the TPM format. Because =
EAT can use CBOR and COSE which are carefully designed for constrained =
devices there is some hope that it can go into TPM-like HW.
>> The architecture draft is trying to tie the two together in a sort of =
unified field theory. Seems possible, but hard to me.
>> LL
>>> On Nov 1, 2019, at 5:08 AM, H Y <yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com =
<mailto:yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Hi all,
>>>=20
>>> I'm Yuhei Hayashi, network security researcher of NTT in Japan. I
>>> learned about the existence of RATS WG at IETF 105.
>>>=20
>>> I'm interested in the work of RATS WG and I'm trying to understand =
it.
>>> So, I'm firstly trying to understand which drafts contain the
>>> standards listed in the charter.
>>>=20
>>> I will attach the result of organizing it from my own point of view.
>>> I'm glad if you confirm that my understanding is correct, if =
possible.
>>>=20
>>> Thanks,
>>> Yuhei
>>> --=20
>>> ----------------------------------
>>> Yuuhei HAYASHI
>>> yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com <mailto:yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com>
>>> ----------------------------------
>>> <RATS_drafts.pdf>_______________________________________________
>>> RATS mailing list
>>> RATS@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>> _______________________________________________
>> RATS mailing list
>> RATS@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>=20


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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Hi =
Henk,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">good =
point.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Yes, =
EAT has been focused on 1) below. However it seems we might expand EAT =
to 2) especially considering that 2) is not constrained by the TPM. =
&nbsp;I=E2=80=99ve added an&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/issues/44" =
class=3D"">issue</a>&nbsp;to the EAT GitHub to track this possible =
work.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Here=E2=80=
=99s two examples:</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">The input to the verifier may be software measurements (TPM =
or EAT format). The output of the verifier might be&nbsp;a Boolean that =
the measurements were correct.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Some implicit claims might be made =
explicit. For example, if the verifier knows that the device =
will&nbsp;never send an attestation is the boot and debug state are not =
locked down, then the verifier can add&nbsp;those =
claims.</div></blockquote><div class=3D""><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>LL</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Nov =
1, 2019, at 7:57 AM, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">Hi =
Laurence,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">good point. There are basically =
two primary focuses here, I think:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">1.) =
Evidence that includes Trustworthy Claims about the Attester, and<br =
class=3D"">2.) Evidence that includes Claims about the Trustworthiness =
of the Attester.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">In 1.) you can put trust =
into the Veracity of Evidence due to the attestation Provenance, in 2.) =
you are given the decision basis for assessing the =
Trustworthiness/Integrity of the attestation Provenance.<br class=3D""><br=
 class=3D"">Laurence, please correct me if I am wrong, but the current =
EAT draft focuses on 1.). Is that correct?<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Henk<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">On 01.11.19 15:25, Laurence Lundblade =
wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Hello,<br =
class=3D"">A frame up that works for me is to think about 1) the claims, =
the attestation format and its details and 2) the transport / conveyance =
and its details.<br class=3D"">In the TPM/TCG world the claims and =
attestation format is locked down by what TPM chips do today. It is a =
set of registers that hold hash values used to measure software. =
&nbsp;In the EAT world, which typically implements on fully functional =
CPUs, the claims and attestation format is not at all locked down and =
our work is to define it (the eat draft).<br class=3D"">A lot of the =
network and router folks have been putting TPMs into their routers and =
now need a way to get the TPM output off the router to the network =
management center. This world runs off of Yang protocols. The main =
interest there is a very specific Yang-based way to move TPM output. =
This is the yang, tuda and pubsub drafts.<br class=3D"">The EAT use =
cases are more about TEE=E2=80=99s and lining up with =
end-user-application-oriented uses like FIDO and the Android key store. =
They make use of all the existing transports used by application =
protocol (mainly HTTP) so there=E2=80=99s no worry about defining =
transport.<br class=3D"">I think a few of us see EAT as the more general =
and flexible attestation format that will eventually replace the TPM =
format. Because EAT can use CBOR and COSE which are carefully designed =
for constrained devices there is some hope that it can go into TPM-like =
HW.<br class=3D"">The architecture draft is trying to tie the two =
together in a sort of unified field theory. Seems possible, but hard to =
me.<br class=3D"">LL<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">On=
 Nov 1, 2019, at 5:08 AM, H Y &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">mailto:yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Hi all,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I'm Yuhei =
Hayashi, network security researcher of NTT in Japan. I<br =
class=3D"">learned about the existence of RATS WG at IETF 105.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">I'm interested in the work of RATS WG and I'm =
trying to understand it.<br class=3D"">So, I'm firstly trying to =
understand which drafts contain the<br class=3D"">standards listed in =
the charter.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I will attach the result of =
organizing it from my own point of view.<br class=3D"">I'm glad if you =
confirm that my understanding is correct, if possible.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Thanks,<br class=3D"">Yuhei<br class=3D"">-- <br =
class=3D"">----------------------------------<br class=3D"">Yuuhei =
HAYASHI<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">mailto:yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D"">----------------------------------<br =
class=3D"">&lt;RATS_drafts.pdf&gt;________________________________________=
_______<br class=3D"">RATS mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" class=3D"">RATS@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats<br =
class=3D""></blockquote>_______________________________________________<br=
 class=3D"">RATS mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" class=3D"">RATS@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_5F71DDC9-8C4E-4F8D-9811-EA2F9968A0D3--


From nobody Fri Nov  1 08:38:24 2019
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To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
CC: H Y <yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com>, <rats@ietf.org>
References: <CAA8pjUMnQ7defSFS8Wz6uw5V1ahiGZMUdSrgmwM6Bh25WN8Ohw@mail.gmail.com> <26A6D463-2635-456F-B0F9-78075B07FDC4@island-resort.com> <0a8eb26e-427d-2edb-e4b4-b0bf17b4075a@sit.fraunhofer.de> <71C1CBBD-74B8-4651-A146-BC4ACD5336AF@island-resort.com>
From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] About current RATS drafts
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Hi Laurence,

I'll map that to the terminology that is still consistent between the 
initial architecture I-D and Dave's condensed architecture I-D. Also a 
question at the end.

> The input to the verifier may be software measurements (TPM or EAT format).

That is the Attestation Evidence (that was the only thing I meant when 
talking about the "two primary focuses".

> The output of the verifier might be a Boolean that the measurements were correct.

That is (the most simple, but most certainly viable) the Attestation Result.

> If the verifier knows that the device will never send an attestation is the boot and debug state are not locked down, then the verifier can add those claims.

I do not fully follow you here, I am afraid. Which Claims can be added 
by the Verifer to what at which time? :) I assume you mean that the 
Attestation Result can include implicit assertions based on the 
attestation Provenance - expressed as Claims. I am not really sure, what 
type of claims you are implying, though.


Viele Grüße,

Henk


On 01.11.19 16:24, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
> Hi Henk,
> 
> good point.
> 
> Yes, EAT has been focused on 1) below. However it seems we might expand 
> EAT to 2) especially considering that 2) is not constrained by the TPM. 
>   I’ve added an issue <https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/issues/44> to 
> the EAT GitHub to track this possible work.
> 
> Here’s two examples:
> 
>     The input to the verifier may be software measurements (TPM or EAT
>     format). The output of the verifier might be a Boolean that the
>     measurements were correct.
> 
>     Some implicit claims might be made explicit. For example, if the
>     verifier knows that the device will never send an attestation is the
>     boot and debug state are not locked down, then the verifier can
>     add those claims.
> 
> 
> LL
> 
> 
>> On Nov 1, 2019, at 7:57 AM, Henk Birkholz 
>> <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de 
>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Laurence,
>>
>> good point. There are basically two primary focuses here, I think:
>>
>> 1.) Evidence that includes Trustworthy Claims about the Attester, and
>> 2.) Evidence that includes Claims about the Trustworthiness of the 
>> Attester.
>>
>> In 1.) you can put trust into the Veracity of Evidence due to the 
>> attestation Provenance, in 2.) you are given the decision basis for 
>> assessing the Trustworthiness/Integrity of the attestation Provenance.
>>
>> Laurence, please correct me if I am wrong, but the current EAT draft 
>> focuses on 1.). Is that correct?
>>
>> Viele Grüße,
>>
>> Henk
>>
>> On 01.11.19 15:25, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>> A frame up that works for me is to think about 1) the claims, the 
>>> attestation format and its details and 2) the transport / conveyance 
>>> and its details.
>>> In the TPM/TCG world the claims and attestation format is locked down 
>>> by what TPM chips do today. It is a set of registers that hold hash 
>>> values used to measure software.  In the EAT world, which typically 
>>> implements on fully functional CPUs, the claims and attestation 
>>> format is not at all locked down and our work is to define it (the 
>>> eat draft).
>>> A lot of the network and router folks have been putting TPMs into 
>>> their routers and now need a way to get the TPM output off the router 
>>> to the network management center. This world runs off of Yang 
>>> protocols. The main interest there is a very specific Yang-based way 
>>> to move TPM output. This is the yang, tuda and pubsub drafts.
>>> The EAT use cases are more about TEE’s and lining up with 
>>> end-user-application-oriented uses like FIDO and the Android key 
>>> store. They make use of all the existing transports used by 
>>> application protocol (mainly HTTP) so there’s no worry about defining 
>>> transport.
>>> I think a few of us see EAT as the more general and flexible 
>>> attestation format that will eventually replace the TPM format. 
>>> Because EAT can use CBOR and COSE which are carefully designed for 
>>> constrained devices there is some hope that it can go into TPM-like HW.
>>> The architecture draft is trying to tie the two together in a sort of 
>>> unified field theory. Seems possible, but hard to me.
>>> LL
>>>> On Nov 1, 2019, at 5:08 AM, H Y <yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com 
>>>> <mailto:yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com> <mailto:yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com>> 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> I'm Yuhei Hayashi, network security researcher of NTT in Japan. I
>>>> learned about the existence of RATS WG at IETF 105.
>>>>
>>>> I'm interested in the work of RATS WG and I'm trying to understand it.
>>>> So, I'm firstly trying to understand which drafts contain the
>>>> standards listed in the charter.
>>>>
>>>> I will attach the result of organizing it from my own point of view.
>>>> I'm glad if you confirm that my understanding is correct, if possible.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Yuhei
>>>> -- 
>>>> ----------------------------------
>>>> Yuuhei HAYASHI
>>>> yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com <mailto:yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com> 
>>>> <mailto:yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com>
>>>> ----------------------------------
>>>> <RATS_drafts.pdf>_______________________________________________
>>>> RATS mailing list
>>>> RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> RATS mailing list
>>> RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>>
> 


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From nobody Fri Nov  1 10:56:28 2019
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> On Nov 1, 2019, at 8:38 AM, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
>=20
> I do not fully follow you here, I am afraid. Which Claims can be added =
by the Verifer to what at which time? :) I assume you mean that the =
Attestation Result can include implicit assertions based on the =
attestation Provenance - expressed as Claims. I am not really sure, what =
type of claims you are implying, though.

Yes, more details are a good idea. :-) With an example of a chip made by =
the fictitious =E2=80=9CAcme Chip Company=E2=80=9D.=20

Acme makes chip model X with HW and boot ROM that:
- have an attestation key programmed at the Acme factory
- prevent use of the attestation key unless
  - booted using authenticated sw
  - all HW debug facilities are turned off

Acme operates the verification service itself. When it receives =
attestation evidence from chip model X it knows that authenticated boot =
was used and all the debug modes are turned off because the attestation =
key would not be accessible if that wasn=E2=80=99t true. There would be =
no attestation. Further, it knows it is Acme Model X because of the =
particular attestation key. They only put that key in Model X device, =
not in Model Y or Z devices.

So, when Acme=E2=80=99s verification service generates an attestation =
result it can include these even though they were not in the attestation =
evidence:
debug_disable_claim =3D disabled
boot_state_claim =3D true

They are implicit claims in the attestation evidence made explicit in =
the attestation result.

I expect there are a number of claims that could and should work this =
way.

LL=

--Apple-Mail=_77BA8A11-EA31-4CD1-BC50-BA4F559FD3D9
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Nov 1, 2019, at 8:38 AM, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">I do not fully follow you here, =
I am afraid. Which Claims can be added by the Verifer to what at which =
time? :) I assume you mean that the Attestation Result can include =
implicit assertions based on the attestation Provenance - expressed as =
Claims. I am not really sure, what type of claims you are implying, =
though.</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">Yes, more details are a good idea. :-) With =
an example of a chip made by the fictitious =E2=80=9CAcme Chip =
Company=E2=80=9D.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Acme makes chip model X with HW and boot ROM that:</div><div =
class=3D"">- have an attestation key programmed at the Acme =
factory</div><div class=3D"">- prevent use of the attestation key =
unless</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; - booted using authenticated =
sw</div><div class=3D"">&nbsp; - all HW debug facilities are turned =
off</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Acme =
operates the verification service itself. When it receives attestation =
evidence from chip model X it knows that authenticated boot was used and =
all the debug modes are turned off because the attestation key would not =
be accessible if that wasn=E2=80=99t true. There would be no =
attestation. Further, it knows it is Acme Model X because of the =
particular attestation key. They only put that key in Model X device, =
not in Model Y or Z devices.</div></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">So, when Acme=E2=80=99s verification =
service generates an attestation result it can include these even though =
they were not in the attestation evidence:</div><div class=3D""><ul =
class=3D"MailOutline"><li class=3D"">debug_disable_claim =3D =
disabled</li><li class=3D"">boot_state_claim =3D true</li></ul><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D"">They are implicit =
claims in the attestation evidence made explicit in the attestation =
result.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I =
expect there are a number of claims that could and should work this =
way.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">LL</div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_77BA8A11-EA31-4CD1-BC50-BA4F559FD3D9--


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From: H Y <yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2019 08:27:09 +0900
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Subject: Re: [Rats] About current RATS drafts
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Hi Henk, Laurence,

Thank you for confirming my understandings. Your comments really help me to
read current drafts. :-)

Thanks,
Yuhei

2019=E5=B9=B411=E6=9C=881=E6=97=A5(=E9=87=91) 23:25 Laurence Lundblade <lgl=
@island-resort.com>:

> Hello,
>
> A frame up that works for me is to think about 1) the claims, the
> attestation format and its details and 2) the transport / conveyance and
> its details.
>
> In the TPM/TCG world the claims and attestation format is locked down by
> what TPM chips do today. It is a set of registers that hold hash values
> used to measure software.  In the EAT world, which typically implements o=
n
> fully functional CPUs, the claims and attestation format is not at all
> locked down and our work is to define it (the eat draft).
>
> A lot of the network and router folks have been putting TPMs into their
> routers and now need a way to get the TPM output off the router to the
> network management center. This world runs off of Yang protocols. The mai=
n
> interest there is a very specific Yang-based way to move TPM output. This
> is the yang, tuda and pubsub drafts.
>
> The EAT use cases are more about TEE=E2=80=99s and lining up with
> end-user-application-oriented uses like FIDO and the Android key store.
> They make use of all the existing transports used by application protocol
> (mainly HTTP) so there=E2=80=99s no worry about defining transport.
>
> I think a few of us see EAT as the more general and flexible attestation
> format that will eventually replace the TPM format. Because EAT can use
> CBOR and COSE which are carefully designed for constrained devices there =
is
> some hope that it can go into TPM-like HW.
>
> The architecture draft is trying to tie the two together in a sort of
> unified field theory. Seems possible, but hard to me.
>
> LL
>
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 1, 2019, at 5:08 AM, H Y <yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I'm Yuhei Hayashi, network security researcher of NTT in Japan. I
> learned about the existence of RATS WG at IETF 105.
>
> I'm interested in the work of RATS WG and I'm trying to understand it.
> So, I'm firstly trying to understand which drafts contain the
> standards listed in the charter.
>
> I will attach the result of organizing it from my own point of view.
> I'm glad if you confirm that my understanding is correct, if possible.
>
> Thanks,
> Yuhei
> --
> ----------------------------------
> Yuuhei HAYASHI
> yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com
> ----------------------------------
> <RATS_drafts.pdf>_______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>
>
>

--=20
----------------------------------
Yuuhei HAYASHI
08065300884
yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com
iehuuy_0220@docomo.ne.jp
----------------------------------

--000000000000bf2d590596514e47
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Henk,=C2=A0Laurence,<div><br></div><div>Thank you for c=
onfirming my understandings. Your comments really help me to read current d=
rafts. :-)</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Yuhei</div></div><br>=
<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">2019=E5=B9=
=B411=E6=9C=881=E6=97=A5(=E9=87=91) 23:25 Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt;:<br></div><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left=
:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: =
break-word;"><div>Hello,</div><div><br></div><div>A frame up that works for=
 me is to think about 1) the claims, the attestation format and its details=
 and 2) the transport / conveyance and its details.</div><div><br></div><di=
v>In the TPM/TCG world the claims and attestation format is locked down by =
what TPM chips do today. It is a set of registers that hold hash values use=
d to measure software.=C2=A0 In the EAT world, which typically implements o=
n fully functional CPUs, the claims and attestation format is not at all lo=
cked down and our work is to define it (the eat draft).</div><div><br></div=
><div>A lot of the network and router folks have been putting TPMs into the=
ir routers and now need a way to get the TPM output off the router to the n=
etwork management center. This world runs off of Yang protocols. The main i=
nterest there is a very specific Yang-based way to move TPM output. This is=
 the yang, tuda and pubsub drafts.</div><div><br></div><div>The EAT use cas=
es are more about TEE=E2=80=99s and lining up with end-user-application-ori=
ented uses like FIDO and the Android key store. They make use of all the ex=
isting transports used by application protocol (mainly HTTP) so there=E2=80=
=99s no worry about defining transport.</div><div><br></div><div>I think a =
few of us see EAT as the more general and flexible attestation format that =
will eventually replace the TPM format. Because EAT can use CBOR and COSE w=
hich are carefully designed for constrained devices there is some hope that=
 it can go into TPM-like HW.</div><div><br></div><div>The architecture draf=
t is trying to tie the two together in a sort of unified field theory. Seem=
s possible, but hard to me.</div><div><br></div><div>LL</div><div><br></div=
><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><img id=3D"gmail-m_-4239844948719907319=
5792C9BF-1BB8-4515-9A7F-B13BB3ED04AF" src=3D"cid:16e2947a32662cf04f21"></di=
v><br><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>On Nov 1, 2019, at 5:08 AM, H=
 Y &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">yuuhei=
.hayashi@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br><div><div>Hi all,<br><br>I&#39;m=
 Yuhei Hayashi, network security researcher of NTT in Japan. I<br>learned a=
bout the existence of RATS WG at IETF 105.<br><br>I&#39;m interested in the=
 work of RATS WG and I&#39;m trying to understand it.<br>So, I&#39;m firstl=
y trying to understand which drafts contain the<br>standards listed in the =
charter.<br><br>I will attach the result of organizing it from my own point=
 of view.<br>I&#39;m glad if you confirm that my understanding is correct, =
if possible.<br><br>Thanks,<br>Yuhei<br>-- <br>----------------------------=
------<br>Yuuhei HAYASHI<br><a href=3D"mailto:yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com" tar=
get=3D"_blank">yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com</a><br>----------------------------=
------<br><span id=3D"gmail-m_-4239844948719907319cid:f_k2g39q2i0">&lt;RATS=
_drafts.pdf&gt;</span>_______________________________________________<br>RA=
TS mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">RATS@=
ietf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats" targ=
et=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats</a><br></div></div=
></blockquote></div><br></div></blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br=
></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature">------------------=
----------------<br>Yuuhei HAYASHI<br>08065300884<br><a href=3D"mailto:yuuh=
ei.hayashi@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">yuuhei.hayashi@gmail.com</a><br><a =
href=3D"mailto:iehuuy_0220@docomo.ne.jp" target=3D"_blank">iehuuy_0220@doco=
mo.ne.jp</a><br>----------------------------------</div>

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--000000000000bf2d5a0596514e48--


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From: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2019 07:16:53 -0400
Message-ID: <CAHbuEH6CH5oY-eW_=4BOVdywvPk5qB-7=fP_FSGSY+0VDS0GJg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Giridhar Mandyam <mandyam@qti.qualcomm.com>
Cc: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Agenda Requests
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--0000000000005bd32005965b3a0b
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Thank you, Giri.  Your request has been noted.  I'll post the proposed
agenda on Monday.  We are still waiting on some requests, but will post on
Monday regardless.

Best regards,
Kathleen

On Fri, Nov 1, 2019 at 1:50 PM Giridhar Mandyam <mandyam@qti.qualcomm.com>
wrote:

> I would request 5 minutes to introduce
> https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-mandyam-rats-qwestoken-00.txt and
> summarize claim differences between it and EAT.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> -Giri
>
>
>
> *From:* RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of * Kathleen Moriarty
> *Sent:* Monday, October 28, 2019 7:37 AM
> *To:* rats@ietf.org
> *Subject:* [Rats] Agenda Requests
>
>
>
> *CAUTION*: This email originated from outside of the organization.
>
> Greetings!
>
>
>
> This is an official call for agenda items.  We have received some and will
> be sorting through those to post soon, but would like to make an official
> call for agenda items.
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Kathleen
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>


-- 

Best regards,
Kathleen

--0000000000005bd32005965b3a0b
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Thank you, Giri.=C2=A0 Your request has been noted.=C2=A0 =
I&#39;ll post the proposed agenda on Monday.=C2=A0 We are still waiting=C2=
=A0on some requests, but will post on Monday regardless.<div><br></div><div=
>Best regards,</div><div>Kathleen</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"=
><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Nov 1, 2019 at 1:50 PM Girid=
har Mandyam &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mandyam@qti.qualcomm.com">mandyam@qti.qua=
lcomm.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"EN-US">
<div class=3D"gmail-m_8525264825893948164WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I would request 5 minutes to introduce <a href=3D"ht=
tps://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-mandyam-rats-qwestoken-00.txt" target=3D"_bla=
nk">
https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-mandyam-rats-qwestoken-00.txt</a> and summa=
rize claim differences between it and EAT.<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">-Giri<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> RATS &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces=
@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; <b>On Behalf Of =
</b>
Kathleen Moriarty<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, October 28, 2019 7:37 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rats@ietf.org=
</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Rats] Agenda Requests<u></u><u></u></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<p><strong><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;colo=
r:black;background:rgb(255,235,156)">CAUTION</span></strong><span style=3D"=
font-size:8.5pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black;background:rgb(255=
,235,156)">: This email originated from outside of
 the organization.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Greetings!<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This is an official call for agenda items.=C2=A0 We =
have received some and will be sorting through those to post soon, but woul=
d like to make an official call for agenda items.<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">-- <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Best regards,<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Kathleen<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

_______________________________________________<br>
RATS mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">RATS@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"=
 class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div>Best regards,</div><di=
v>Kathleen</div></div></div>

--0000000000005bd32005965b3a0b--


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From: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 2 Nov 2019 07:24:12 -0400
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To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] EAT material for Singapore
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Rats participants, please read the draft if you haven't yet, plus the pull
requests for an informed discussion.

Thank you,
Kathleen



On Fri, Nov 1, 2019 at 10:46 AM Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
wrote:

> Hi folks,
>
> Rather than publish a new EAT draft for Singapore we have pull requests
> for you to review. The hope is for consensus on them in Singapore after
> which they will be integrated into a new EAT draft published after
> Singapore. Here=E2=80=99s the pull requests:
>
> Submodules <https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/pull/43> =E2=80=94 This u=
pdate
> unifies submodules and nested EATs so they both occur in the =E2=80=9Csub=
mods=E2=80=9D part
> of a token. It clarifies inheritance (there is none), simplifies naming o=
f
> submodules, and defines attachment type.
>
> UEID <https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/pull/35> =E2=80=94 This update =
includes
> a statistical analysis based on the birthday problem to justify upping th=
e
> number of its bits required to 256.
>
> OEMID <https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/pull/41> =E2=80=94 This update=
 fills
> in the details on the use IEEE MA-L and Company IDs to identify device
> manufacturers
>
> Security Considerations <https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/pull/28> =E2=
=80=94
> This improves the security considerations section.
>
> Boot state and debug <https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/pull/36> =E2=80=
=94 This
> update makes the debug state description a 4-state variable rather than 4
> Booleans.
>
> Nonce <https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/pull/42> =E2=80=94 This update=
s lines
> up the token identifiers and nonce from JWT, specifically clarifies that
> the nonce comes from the relying party.
>
> General Claims Characteristics
> <https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/pull/7> =E2=80=94 This describes som=
e
> conventions and goals when defining new attestation claims.
>
> If you click on the links above and then the =E2=80=9CFiles changed=E2=80=
=9D tab, you can
> see the text of each. You can comment in email, but it is better if you
> comment in GitHub on the pull request itself so it is more easily tracked=
.
>
> LL
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>


--=20

Best regards,
Kathleen

--0000000000008f7f3705965b5411
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Rats participants, please read the draft if you haven&#39;=
t yet, plus the pull requests for an informed discussion.<div><br></div><di=
v>Thank you,</div><div>Kathleen<br><div><br></div><div><br></div></div></di=
v><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On F=
ri, Nov 1, 2019 at 10:46 AM Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lgl@is=
land-resort.com">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px sol=
id rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-wo=
rd;">Hi folks,<div><br></div><div>Rather than publish a new EAT draft for S=
ingapore we have pull requests for you to review. The hope is for consensus=
 on them in Singapore after which they will be integrated into a new EAT dr=
aft published after Singapore. Here=E2=80=99s the pull requests:</div><div>=
<br></div><blockquote style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 40px;border:none;padding:=
0px"><div><a href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/pull/43" target=3D=
"_blank">Submodules</a>=C2=A0=E2=80=94 This update unifies submodules and n=
ested EATs so they both occur in the =E2=80=9Csubmods=E2=80=9D part of a to=
ken. It clarifies inheritance (there is none), simplifies naming of submodu=
les, and defines attachment type.</div><div><br></div><div><a href=3D"https=
://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/pull/35" target=3D"_blank">UEID</a>=C2=A0=E2=
=80=94 This update includes a statistical analysis based on the birthday pr=
oblem to justify upping the number of its bits required to 256.</div><div><=
br></div><div><a href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/pull/41" targe=
t=3D"_blank">OEMID</a>=C2=A0=E2=80=94 This update fills in the details on t=
he use IEEE MA-L and Company IDs to identify device manufacturers</div><div=
><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/pull/28" tar=
get=3D"_blank">Security Considerations</a>=C2=A0=E2=80=94 This improves the=
 security considerations section.</div><div><br></div><div><a href=3D"https=
://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/pull/36" target=3D"_blank">Boot state and de=
bug</a>=C2=A0=E2=80=94 This update makes the debug state description a 4-st=
ate variable rather than 4 Booleans.</div><div><br></div><div><a href=3D"ht=
tps://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/pull/42" target=3D"_blank">Nonce</a>=C2=
=A0=E2=80=94 This updates lines up the token identifiers and nonce from JWT=
, specifically clarifies that the nonce comes from the relying party.</div>=
<div><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/pull/7" =
target=3D"_blank">General Claims Characteristics</a>=C2=A0=E2=80=94 This de=
scribes some conventions and goals when defining new attestation claims.</d=
iv><div><br></div></blockquote>If you click on the links above and then the=
 =E2=80=9CFiles changed=E2=80=9D tab, you can see the text of each. You can=
 comment in email, but it is better if you comment in GitHub on the pull re=
quest itself so it is more easily tracked.<div><br></div><div>LL</div></div=
>_______________________________________________<br>
RATS mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">RATS@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"=
 class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div>Best regards,</div><di=
v>Kathleen</div></div></div>

--0000000000008f7f3705965b5411--


From nobody Sat Nov  2 12:14:35 2019
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Agenda Requests
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Hi chairs,
hi list,

we came up with these requests:

05 min Current Status Report (incl. some overall hot-topics)
15 min Use Cases (incl. 5-10min discussion)
30 min Architecture (incl. 10-15min discussion)
10 min C/R YANG Module (incl. scope and title discussion)
15 min C/R Interaction Model (incl. IM for protocol IE discussion)

Viele Grüße,

Henk




On 02.11.19 12:16, Kathleen Moriarty wrote:
> Thank you, Giri.  Your request has been noted.  I'll post the proposed 
> agenda on Monday.  We are still waiting on some requests, but will post 
> on Monday regardless.
> 
> Best regards,
> Kathleen
> 
> On Fri, Nov 1, 2019 at 1:50 PM Giridhar Mandyam 
> <mandyam@qti.qualcomm.com <mailto:mandyam@qti.qualcomm.com>> wrote:
> 
>     I would request 5 minutes to introduce
>     https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-mandyam-rats-qwestoken-00.txt and
>     summarize claim differences between it and EAT.____
> 
>     __ __
> 
>     Thanks,____
> 
>     __ __
> 
>     -Giri____
> 
>     __ __
> 
>     *From:* RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>>
>     *On Behalf Of * Kathleen Moriarty
>     *Sent:* Monday, October 28, 2019 7:37 AM
>     *To:* rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org>
>     *Subject:* [Rats] Agenda Requests____
> 
>     __ __
> 
>     *CAUTION*: This email originated from outside of the organization.____
> 
>     Greetings!____
> 
>     __ __
> 
>     This is an official call for agenda items.  We have received some
>     and will be sorting through those to post soon, but would like to
>     make an official call for agenda items.____
> 
>     __ __
> 
>     -- ____
> 
>     __ __
> 
>     Best regards,____
> 
>     Kathleen____
> 
>     _______________________________________________
>     RATS mailing list
>     RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Best regards,
> Kathleen
> 
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
> 


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Oh - sure! Sorry :)

I added them in below. The order of the last 3 items in the request is 
not fixed, I'd say.

Viele Grüße,

Henk

On 03.11.19 02:29, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) wrote:
> Hi Henk,
> When you say "we", can you specify who the presenters are and if they would present in person or remotely?
> Thanks, Nancy
> 
> ﻿On 11/2/19, 12:14, "RATS on behalf of Henk Birkholz" <rats-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
> 
>      Hi chairs,
>      hi list,
>      
>      we came up with these requests:
>      
>      05 min Current Status Report (incl. some overall hot-topics) Henk
>      15 min Use Cases (incl. 5-10min discussion) Michael
>      30 min Architecture (incl. 10-15min discussion) Henk
>      10 min C/R YANG Module (incl. scope and title discussion) Eric
>      15 min C/R Interaction Model (incl. IM for protocol IE discussion) Henk
>      
>      Viele Grüße,
>      
>      Henk
>      
>      
>      
>      
>      On 02.11.19 12:16, Kathleen Moriarty wrote:
>      > Thank you, Giri.  Your request has been noted.  I'll post the proposed
>      > agenda on Monday.  We are still waiting on some requests, but will post
>      > on Monday regardless.
>      >
>      > Best regards,
>      > Kathleen
>      >
>      > On Fri, Nov 1, 2019 at 1:50 PM Giridhar Mandyam
>      > <mandyam@qti.qualcomm.com <mailto:mandyam@qti.qualcomm.com>> wrote:
>      >
>      >     I would request 5 minutes to introduce
>      >     https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-mandyam-rats-qwestoken-00.txt and
>      >     summarize claim differences between it and EAT.____
>      >
>      >     __ __
>      >
>      >     Thanks,____
>      >
>      >     __ __
>      >
>      >     -Giri____
>      >
>      >     __ __
>      >
>      >     *From:* RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>>
>      >     *On Behalf Of * Kathleen Moriarty
>      >     *Sent:* Monday, October 28, 2019 7:37 AM
>      >     *To:* rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org>
>      >     *Subject:* [Rats] Agenda Requests____
>      >
>      >     __ __
>      >
>      >     *CAUTION*: This email originated from outside of the organization.____
>      >
>      >     Greetings!____
>      >
>      >     __ __
>      >
>      >     This is an official call for agenda items.  We have received some
>      >     and will be sorting through those to post soon, but would like to
>      >     make an official call for agenda items.____
>      >
>      >     __ __
>      >
>      >     -- ____
>      >
>      >     __ __
>      >
>      >     Best regards,____
>      >
>      >     Kathleen____
>      >
>      >     _______________________________________________
>      >     RATS mailing list
>      >     RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
>      >     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      > --
>      >
>      > Best regards,
>      > Kathleen
>      >
>      > _______________________________________________
>      > RATS mailing list
>      > RATS@ietf.org
>      > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>      >
>      
>      _______________________________________________
>      RATS mailing list
>      RATS@ietf.org
>      https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>      
> 


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From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Use case -> architecture document
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Hi Jürgen,

in the RATS WG we split that specific challenge/response interaction 
(there are others, but this is the best understood one) out into this 
document:

> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-birkholz-rats-reference-interaction-model/

An complementary approach was recently introduced here:

> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xia-rats-pubsub-model/

Both types of (and by inference - all) interaction adhere to the same 
"attestation principles" (which we are currently relabeled to 
"attestation characteristics" but this is more a matter of finding the 
most intuitive title here), which are included in one of the 
architecture documents.

I think you highlighted a good question that we should put to a call for 
consensus: Are attestation characteristics, such as freshness, 
provenance (often referred to as origination), or veracity defining (or 
vital) concepts for remote attestation procedures so that they belong 
into the architecture document?

Viele Grüße,

Henk



On 15.10.19 17:45, Schönwälder, Jürgen wrote:
> Henk's architecture discusses 'Attestation Principles' that are not in
> Dave's proposal. I guess the WG needs to decide whether to include
> them or not. Are these important for understanding or guiding the RATS
> work?
> 
> I also like to mention that there are research papers where the remote
> attestation process is described more in the form of a challenge
> response interaction, where the verifier sends a specific challenge to
> a device and the device returns a response that is than evaluated by
> the verifier. An example is "compute a hash over certain memory areas
> within a certain time limit" and then the device returns the result
> and the verifier checks whether it is what is expected.  The time
> limit is used to control that an infected device can't reasonably
> forward the challenge to obtain an answer from an unaffected device
> that is then relayed back to the verifier. The question is whether the
> architecture includes models where a stimuli is used to trigger the
> production of a certain Evidence or whether this is left out of the
> architectural picture on purpose. For more details, see for example
> <doi.org/10.1145/2988546> (you will find a preprint if you search).


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From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sch=F6nw=E4lder=2C_J=FCrgen?= <J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
CC: Dave Thaler <dthaler=40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] Use case -> architecture document
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References: <C02846B1344F344EB4FAA6FA7AF481F13E9560C0@dggemm511-mbx.china.huawei.com> <CAHbuEH7WkqeyUW3sL5bdw5N25B6O7ZEF0Qkx03fE5c42Sd4M5w@mail.gmail.com> <b91baad2-2fc3-a5e4-6898-e2cddcda300d@sit.fraunhofer.de> <20191009145006.r2pjsoo6jxirah64@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <CAHbuEH6u-6GsJjK8s0eFQPLeSuGjPMgonhyQkmaeA6Q+rp42kA@mail.gmail.com> <9379d880-2b7e-6657-c547-b37bb7a9e466@sit.fraunhofer.de> <CAHbuEH7XfWgPT+=T-Za9Cw-5GRQj0_+WT3L+Kd4aPp6VvU9jAQ@mail.gmail.com> <MWHPR21MB078499E5D4A2A5E697924EC7A3900@MWHPR21MB0784.namprd21.prod.outlook.com> <20191015154500.ruv2ie36hsxfb3qq@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <df88e230-53ac-7f52-2534-d1e9dc1a508a@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Use case -> architecture document
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Henk,

I prefer having all relevant interaction models in the architecture.

Looking at your architecture draft and "attestation characteristics"
(aka attestation principles), then I am not sure I do understand all
definitions. For me, 'relevance' seems somewhat unclear. Should such
terms be defined in an architecture doccument? Probably yes if they
are fundamental for understanding the technology and not covered by
generally known security terminology.

/js

On Sun, Nov 03, 2019 at 07:37:04PM +0100, Henk Birkholz wrote:
> Hi J=FCrgen,
>=20
> in the RATS WG we split that specific challenge/response interaction (the=
re
> are others, but this is the best understood one) out into this document:
>=20
> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-birkholz-rats-reference-interact=
ion-model/
>=20
> An complementary approach was recently introduced here:
>=20
> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xia-rats-pubsub-model/
>=20
> Both types of (and by inference - all) interaction adhere to the same
> "attestation principles" (which we are currently relabeled to "attestatio=
n
> characteristics" but this is more a matter of finding the most intuitive
> title here), which are included in one of the architecture documents.
>=20
> I think you highlighted a good question that we should put to a call for
> consensus: Are attestation characteristics, such as freshness, provenance
> (often referred to as origination), or veracity defining (or vital) conce=
pts
> for remote attestation procedures so that they belong into the architectu=
re
> document?
>=20
> Viele Gr=FC=DFe,
>=20
> Henk
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On 15.10.19 17:45, Sch=F6nw=E4lder, J=FCrgen wrote:
> > Henk's architecture discusses 'Attestation Principles' that are not in
> > Dave's proposal. I guess the WG needs to decide whether to include
> > them or not. Are these important for understanding or guiding the RATS
> > work?
> >=20
> > I also like to mention that there are research papers where the remote
> > attestation process is described more in the form of a challenge
> > response interaction, where the verifier sends a specific challenge to
> > a device and the device returns a response that is than evaluated by
> > the verifier. An example is "compute a hash over certain memory areas
> > within a certain time limit" and then the device returns the result
> > and the verifier checks whether it is what is expected.  The time
> > limit is used to control that an infected device can't reasonably
> > forward the challenge to obtain an answer from an unaffected device
> > that is then relayed back to the verifier. The question is whether the
> > architecture includes models where a stimuli is used to trigger the
> > production of a certain Evidence or whether this is left out of the
> > architectural picture on purpose. For more details, see for example
> > <doi.org/10.1145/2988546> (you will find a preprint if you search).

--=20
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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From: Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>
To: Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Thomas Hardjono <hardjono@mit.edu>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay <jmfmckay@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: RIV and the RATS architecture
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Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2019 20:56:09 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Rats] RIV and the RATS architecture
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Hi Guy, sorry for the delay, I was at a conference (Open Source Summit, Con=
fidential Computing Consortium, and Linux Security Summit were all co-locat=
ed) all last week and traveling there/back.

Responses inline below...

From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Guy Fedorkow
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2019 12:27 PM
To: Dave Thaler <dthaler=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: rats@ietf.org; Thomas Hardjono <hardjono@mit.edu>; Smith, Ned <ned.smit=
h@intel.com>; Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>; Jessica Fitz=
gerald-McKay <jmfmckay@gmail.com>
Subject: [Rats] RIV and the RATS architecture

Hi Dave,
  Thanks for your doc https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thaler-rats-archite=
cture-00<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%=
2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-thaler-rats-architecture-00&data=3D02%7C01%=
7Cdthaler%40microsoft.com%7C520adf8cc884437d639508d75e385c4d%7C72f988bf86f1=
41af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637081468537546960&sdata=3D20zFPTGCbLybPlTaN=
B2E6uSb3re0G2bYPGC8F9TNXis%3D&reserved=3D0>.
  Do you have a view as to how the TPM-based attestation described in RIV w=
ould fit with the proposed categorization?
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-=
00<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftool=
s.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-00&data=
=3D02%7C01%7Cdthaler%40microsoft.com%7C520adf8cc884437d639508d75e385c4d%7C7=
2f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637081468537556953&sdata=3DVTByXH=
pjuEMkojKjjly0i0BbnvujhB4fIpQaqiPFDKA%3D&reserved=3D0>

Great question. From my reading of draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attes=
tation-00, it's a background check model, as section 2.3 of your doc explai=
ns:
>   3.  A Relying Party, which has access to the Verifier to request
>       attestation and to act on results.

That sentence above is by definition the background check model.
That is, the Attester talks to the Relying Party, the Relying Party then re=
quests a background check by consulting a Verifier,
and will accept whatever answer the Verifier decides.
There are ways where you could use the passport model for network device at=
testation,
but your document only covers the background check model.

  It doesn't seem to be a passport, since the attester only provides raw ev=
idence, not a pre-approved passport

Agreed, from my reading of your document.

  It doesn't seem to be a background check, as it's the verifier that colle=
cts and analyzes the evidence.

If I understand your point here, you're saying that the verifier talks dire=
ctly to the attester (e.g., by querying the yang module), without going bac=
k through the relying party, and that that seemed to you to be different fr=
om a classic "background check" diagram.  Did I get your point correctly?

If so, then I see it as a variation of the background check model, as oppos=
ed to a separate model per se.

  I'm not sure it matters to RIV, as we haven't drawn much distinction betw=
een the relying party and the verifier...  As you say, if they're on the sa=
me machine, the distinction is almost moot.

Agree.

And if they're not, I think the communication is out of scope for RIV (if n=
ot for RATS).

I disagree that it's out of scope for RATS.

I have no opinion on whether it's out of scope for RIV, since I still have =
some confusion on the intended scope of RIV.
I note that your document constrains its scope (in section 1.5) to only TPM=
-based embedded devices, and not other
types of devices.   I couldn't tell if the scope of RIV and the scope of th=
e draft (which does not have RIV in the name, or in
section 1.5) are similar or one is a subset of the other.   Indeed, the tit=
le of the document is far wider than just TPM-based
embedded devices, so in that sense the title doesn't match the scoping in s=
ection 1.5.   Just explaining why there's not
enough information for me to have an opinion on verifier-relying party comm=
unication in RIV.

There can be other network attestation solutions that look quite different =
from the flow in your draft
(and I have no skin in this game, so don't have a bias towards any solution=
 in particular).   For example,
some other solution might involve a RADIUS server being a Verifier, so the =
verifier - relying party communication might
be RADIUS in that example.   There's many ways to construct solutions, and =
so I imagine there's probably multiple
solutions already out there, since the NEA problem is not new even in the I=
ETF (https://tools.ietf.org/wg/nea/ has
pointers to RFCs for anyone reading this who's not already aware of it).

  But it would be good ensure the architecture and the applications of it a=
ctually do fit together...

Absolutely.

Dave

  Thanks
/guy






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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Hi Guy, sorry for the =
delay, I was at a conference (Open Source Summit, Confidential Computing Co=
nsortium, and Linux Security Summit were all co-located) all last week and =
traveling there/back.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"color:#1F4=
97D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Responses inline below=
&#8230;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"color:#1F4=
97D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><b>From:</b> RATS &lt;rat=
s-bounces@ietf.org&gt;
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Guy Fedorkow<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, October 31, 2019 12:27 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Dave Thaler &lt;dthaler=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> rats@ietf.org; Thomas Hardjono &lt;hardjono@mit.edu&gt;; Smith, =
Ned &lt;ned.smith@intel.com&gt;; Henk Birkholz &lt;henk.birkholz@sit.fraunh=
ofer.de&gt;; Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay &lt;jmfmckay@gmail.com&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Rats] RIV and the RATS architecture<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">Hi Dave,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp; Thanks for your do=
c <a href=3D"https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A=
%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-thaler-rats-architecture-00&amp;data=3D=
02%7C01%7Cdthaler%40microsoft.com%7C520adf8cc884437d639508d75e385c4d%7C72f9=
88bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637081468537546960&amp;sdata=3D20zFP=
TGCbLybPlTaNB2E6uSb3re0G2bYPGC8F9TNXis%3D&amp;reserved=3D0">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thaler-rats-architecture-00</a>.<o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp; Do you have a view=
 as to how the TPM-based attestation described in RIV would fit with the pr=
oposed categorization?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><a href=3D"https://nam06.=
safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml=
%2Fdraft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-00&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Cd=
thaler%40microsoft.com%7C520adf8cc884437d639508d75e385c4d%7C72f988bf86f141a=
f91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637081468537556953&amp;sdata=3DVTByXHpjuEMkojKj=
jly0i0BbnvujhB4fIpQaqiPFDKA%3D&amp;reserved=3D0">https://tools.ietf.org/htm=
l/draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-00</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"color:#1F4=
97D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Great question. From m=
y reading of draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-00, it&#8217;s =
a background check model, as section 2.3 of your doc explains:<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Consolas=
;color:black;background:white">&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; 3.&nbsp; A Relying Party, w=
hich has access to the Verifier to request<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Consolas=
;color:black;background:white">&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; att=
estation and to act on results.</span><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">That sentence above is=
 by definition the background check model.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">That is, the Attester =
talks to the Relying Party, the Relying Party then requests a background ch=
eck by consulting a Verifier,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">and will accept whatev=
er answer the Verifier decides.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">There are ways where y=
ou could use the passport model for network device attestation,<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">but your document only=
 covers the background check model.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp; It doesn&#8217;t s=
eem to be a passport, since the attester only provides raw evidence, not a =
pre-approved passport<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Agreed, from my readin=
g of your document.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp; It doesn&#8217;t s=
eem to be a background check, as it&#8217;s the verifier that collects and =
analyzes the evidence.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">If I understand your p=
oint here, you&#8217;re saying that the verifier talks directly to the atte=
ster (e.g., by querying the yang module), without going back through the re=
lying party, and that that seemed to you to
 be different from a classic &#8220;background check&#8221; diagram.&nbsp; =
Did I get your point correctly?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">If so, then I see it a=
s a variation of the background check model, as opposed to a separate model=
 per se.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp; I&#8217;m not sure=
 it matters to RIV, as we haven&#8217;t drawn much distinction between the =
relying party and the verifier&#8230;&nbsp; As you say, if they&#8217;re on=
 the same machine, the distinction is almost moot.&nbsp;<span style=3D"colo=
r:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Agree.<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">And if they&#8217;re not,=
 I think the communication is out of scope for RIV (if not for RATS).<span =
style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">I disagree that it&#82=
17;s out of scope for RATS.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">I have no opinion on w=
hether it&#8217;s out of scope for RIV, since I still have some confusion o=
n the intended scope of RIV.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">I note that your docum=
ent constrains its scope (in section 1.5) to only TPM-based embedded device=
s, and not other<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">types of devices.&nbsp=
;&nbsp; I couldn&#8217;t tell if the scope of RIV and the scope of the draf=
t (which does not have RIV in the name, or in<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">section 1.5) are simil=
ar or one is a subset of the other.&nbsp;&nbsp; Indeed, the title of the do=
cument is far wider than just TPM-based<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">embedded devices, so i=
n that sense the title doesn&#8217;t match the scoping in section 1.5. &nbs=
p;&nbsp;Just explaining why there&#8217;s not<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">enough information for=
 me to have an opinion on verifier-relying party communication in RIV.<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">There can be other net=
work attestation solutions that look quite different from the flow in your =
draft<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">(and I have no skin in=
 this game, so don&#8217;t have a bias towards any solution in particular).=
&nbsp;&nbsp; For example,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">some other solution mi=
ght involve a RADIUS server being a Verifier, so the verifier &#8211; relyi=
ng party communication might<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">be RADIUS in that exam=
ple.&nbsp;&nbsp; There&#8217;s many ways to construct solutions, and so I i=
magine there&#8217;s probably multiple<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">solutions already out =
there, since the NEA problem is not new even in the IETF (<a href=3D"https:=
//tools.ietf.org/wg/nea/">https://tools.ietf.org/wg/nea/</a> has<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">pointers to RFCs for a=
nyone reading this who&#8217;s not already aware of it).<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp; But it would be go=
od ensure the architecture and the applications of it actually do fit toget=
her&#8230;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Absolutely.<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Dave<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp;&nbsp;Thanks<o:p></=
o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">/guy<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"msipfooter30b3d538" align=3D"center" style=3D"mso-margin-top-al=
t:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.00=
01pt;text-align:center">
<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;c=
olor:black">Juniper Business Use Only</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
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From nobody Mon Nov  4 13:22:53 2019
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To: Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>, Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
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From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] RIV and the RATS architecture
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Hi Dave, Guy, et al.

we did a "best fit" matching of use cases with the two message flows 
"passport" and "back-end", and while it is possible to cluster those 
with some... leniency, the goal is to provide the basis for mapping by 
using both roles and message flows in the architecture document. 
"Passport" and "Back-End" flows really helped to streamline the progress 
(Thanks Dave). As we (Thomas, Ned, Michael & me, with 'unfortunately' 
too much input from group members! Thanks all) went through seven 
examples now (still missing a prominent GP one, I think) we are pretty 
confident that this works consistently.

Sorry again that we did not address all issues raised. The priority 
stack that is our action item list was in a continuous swirl :)

There will be one or more submissions before cut-off.

Viele Grüße,

Henk




On 04.11.19 21:56, Dave Thaler wrote:
> Hi Guy, sorry for the delay, I was at a conference (Open Source Summit, 
> Confidential Computing Consortium, and Linux Security Summit were all 
> co-located) all last week and traveling there/back.
> 
> Responses inline below…
> 
> *From:* RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of *Guy Fedorkow
> *Sent:* Thursday, October 31, 2019 12:27 PM
> *To:* Dave Thaler <dthaler=40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
> *Cc:* rats@ietf.org; Thomas Hardjono <hardjono@mit.edu>; Smith, Ned 
> <ned.smith@intel.com>; Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>; 
> Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay <jmfmckay@gmail.com>
> *Subject:* [Rats] RIV and the RATS architecture
> 
> Hi Dave,
> 
>    Thanks for your doc 
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thaler-rats-architecture-00 
> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-thaler-rats-architecture-00&data=02%7C01%7Cdthaler%40microsoft.com%7C520adf8cc884437d639508d75e385c4d%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637081468537546960&sdata=20zFPTGCbLybPlTaNB2E6uSb3re0G2bYPGC8F9TNXis%3D&reserved=0>.
> 
>    Do you have a view as to how the TPM-based attestation described in 
> RIV would fit with the proposed categorization?
> 
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-00 
> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-00&data=02%7C01%7Cdthaler%40microsoft.com%7C520adf8cc884437d639508d75e385c4d%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637081468537556953&sdata=VTByXHpjuEMkojKjjly0i0BbnvujhB4fIpQaqiPFDKA%3D&reserved=0>
> 
> Great question. From my reading of 
> draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-00, it’s a background 
> check model, as section 2.3 of your doc explains:
> 
>>   3.  A Relying Party, which has access to the Verifier to request
> 
>>       attestation and to act on results.
> 
> That sentence above is by definition the background check model.
> 
> That is, the Attester talks to the Relying Party, the Relying Party then 
> requests a background check by consulting a Verifier,
> 
> and will accept whatever answer the Verifier decides.
> 
> There are ways where you could use the passport model for network device 
> attestation,
> 
> but your document only covers the background check model.
> 
>    It doesn’t seem to be a passport, since the attester only provides 
> raw evidence, not a pre-approved passport
> 
> Agreed, from my reading of your document.
> 
>    It doesn’t seem to be a background check, as it’s the verifier that 
> collects and analyzes the evidence.
> 
> If I understand your point here, you’re saying that the verifier talks 
> directly to the attester (e.g., by querying the yang module), without 
> going back through the relying party, and that that seemed to you to be 
> different from a classic “background check” diagram.  Did I get your 
> point correctly?
> 
> If so, then I see it as a variation of the background check model, as 
> opposed to a separate model per se.
> 
>    I’m not sure it matters to RIV, as we haven’t drawn much distinction 
> between the relying party and the verifier…  As you say, if they’re on 
> the same machine, the distinction is almost moot.
> 
> Agree.
> 
> And if they’re not, I think the communication is out of scope for RIV 
> (if not for RATS).
> 
> I disagree that it’s out of scope for RATS.
> 
> I have no opinion on whether it’s out of scope for RIV, since I still 
> have some confusion on the intended scope of RIV.
> 
> I note that your document constrains its scope (in section 1.5) to only 
> TPM-based embedded devices, and not other
> 
> types of devices.   I couldn’t tell if the scope of RIV and the scope of 
> the draft (which does not have RIV in the name, or in
> 
> section 1.5) are similar or one is a subset of the other.   Indeed, the 
> title of the document is far wider than just TPM-based
> 
> embedded devices, so in that sense the title doesn’t match the scoping 
> in section 1.5.   Just explaining why there’s not
> 
> enough information for me to have an opinion on verifier-relying party 
> communication in RIV.
> 
> There can be other network attestation solutions that look quite 
> different from the flow in your draft
> 
> (and I have no skin in this game, so don’t have a bias towards any 
> solution in particular).   For example,
> 
> some other solution might involve a RADIUS server being a Verifier, so 
> the verifier – relying party communication might
> 
> be RADIUS in that example.   There’s many ways to construct solutions, 
> and so I imagine there’s probably multiple
> 
> solutions already out there, since the NEA problem is not new even in 
> the IETF (https://tools.ietf.org/wg/nea/ has
> 
> pointers to RFCs for anyone reading this who’s not already aware of it).
> 
>    But it would be good ensure the architecture and the applications of 
> it actually do fit together…
> 
> Absolutely.
> 
> Dave
> 
>    Thanks
> 
> /guy
> 
> Juniper Business Use Only
> 


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From: Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>
To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Thomas Hardjono <hardjono@mit.edu>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay <jmfmckay@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] RIV and the RATS architecture
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Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2019 22:28:57 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/dcy3YhF0XQQsy5pmZk_J9WY9gCY>
Subject: Re: [Rats] RIV and the RATS architecture
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Thanks Henk for the note.

I hope the WG can converge more as I think there is still much confusion, a=
nd reviewing
updated documents will help people to understand concepts better and see wh=
ere there is alignment and
where there is still lack of alignment.

I haven't gotten any direction from the chairs yet as to whether I should u=
pdate my contribution or not, but
since there have been specific questions asked on the list (Juergen, Guy, e=
tc.), and apparently some mischaracterization
in email messages about text in my contribution, I'm inclined to submit an =
update unless the chairs tell me otherwise.

I am absolutely open to co-authoring, or contributing, or merging, or whate=
ver else, going forward.

Looking forward to a productive discussion,
Dave

-----Original Message-----
From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Henk Birkholz
Sent: Monday, November 4, 2019 1:23 PM
To: Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>; Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow=3D40junipe=
r.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: rats@ietf.org; Thomas Hardjono <hardjono@mit.edu>; Smith, Ned <ned.smit=
h@intel.com>; Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay <jmfmckay@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Rats] RIV and the RATS architecture

Hi Dave, Guy, et al.

we did a "best fit" matching of use cases with the two message flows "passp=
ort" and "back-end", and while it is possible to cluster those with some...=
 leniency, the goal is to provide the basis for mapping by using both roles=
 and message flows in the architecture document.=20
"Passport" and "Back-End" flows really helped to streamline the progress (T=
hanks Dave). As we (Thomas, Ned, Michael & me, with 'unfortunately'=20
too much input from group members! Thanks all) went through seven examples =
now (still missing a prominent GP one, I think) we are pretty confident tha=
t this works consistently.

Sorry again that we did not address all issues raised. The priority stack t=
hat is our action item list was in a continuous swirl :)

There will be one or more submissions before cut-off.

Viele Gr=FC=DFe,

Henk




On 04.11.19 21:56, Dave Thaler wrote:
> Hi Guy, sorry for the delay, I was at a conference (Open Source=20
> Summit, Confidential Computing Consortium, and Linux Security Summit=20
> were all
> co-located) all last week and traveling there/back.
>=20
> Responses inline below.
>=20
> *From:* RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of *Guy Fedorkow
> *Sent:* Thursday, October 31, 2019 12:27 PM
> *To:* Dave Thaler <dthaler=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
> *Cc:* rats@ietf.org; Thomas Hardjono <hardjono@mit.edu>; Smith, Ned=20
> <ned.smith@intel.com>; Henk Birkholz=20
> <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>;
> Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay <jmfmckay@gmail.com>
> *Subject:* [Rats] RIV and the RATS architecture
>=20
> Hi Dave,
>=20
>  =A0 Thanks for your doc
> https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftool
> s.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-thaler-rats-architecture-00&amp;data=3D02%7C01
> %7Cdthaler%40microsoft.com%7C9dfd693759294a279a9e08d7616d3410%7C72f988
> bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637085028413254093&amp;sdata=3Dkc6Y
> 4pawY8qtlcCEbuU4jslXVhktsexy8rCHoVv6q%2FE%3D&amp;reserved=3D0
> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftool=
s.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-thaler-rats-architecture-00&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7C=
dthaler%40microsoft.com%7C9dfd693759294a279a9e08d7616d3410%7C72f988bf86f141=
af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637085028413254093&amp;sdata=3Dkc6Y4pawY8qtlcC=
EbuU4jslXVhktsexy8rCHoVv6q%2FE%3D&amp;reserved=3D0>.
>=20
>  =A0 Do you have a view as to how the TPM-based attestation described in=
=20
> RIV would fit with the proposed categorization?
>=20
> https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftool
> s.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-00&
> amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Cdthaler%40microsoft.com%7C9dfd693759294a279a9e08d76
> 16d3410%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C63708502841325409
> 3&amp;sdata=3DmTKpVUjdcsj5YLY4yfQMSCUi4JRYxroPFzBlBTMdJW8%3D&amp;reserve
> d=3D0=20
> <https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftoo
> ls.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-00
> &amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Cdthaler%40microsoft.com%7C9dfd693759294a279a9e08d7
> 616d3410%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C6370850284132640
> 89&amp;sdata=3DEZTwUJ70nIQCDMwYlmjIN73q8MVZWAQvY%2FeqOOw7prE%3D&amp;rese
> rved=3D0>
>=20
> Great question. From my reading of
> draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-00, it's a background=20
> check model, as section 2.3 of your doc explains:
>=20
>>=A0=A0 3.=A0 A Relying Party, which has access to the Verifier to request
>=20
>>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 attestation and to act on results.
>=20
> That sentence above is by definition the background check model.
>=20
> That is, the Attester talks to the Relying Party, the Relying Party=20
> then requests a background check by consulting a Verifier,
>=20
> and will accept whatever answer the Verifier decides.
>=20
> There are ways where you could use the passport model for network=20
> device attestation,
>=20
> but your document only covers the background check model.
>=20
>  =A0 It doesn't seem to be a passport, since the attester only provides=20
> raw evidence, not a pre-approved passport
>=20
> Agreed, from my reading of your document.
>=20
>  =A0 It doesn't seem to be a background check, as it's the verifier that=
=20
> collects and analyzes the evidence.
>=20
> If I understand your point here, you're saying that the verifier talks=20
> directly to the attester (e.g., by querying the yang module), without=20
> going back through the relying party, and that that seemed to you to=20
> be different from a classic "background check" diagram.=A0 Did I get=20
> your point correctly?
>=20
> If so, then I see it as a variation of the background check model, as=20
> opposed to a separate model per se.
>=20
>  =A0 I'm not sure it matters to RIV, as we haven't drawn much=20
> distinction between the relying party and the verifier.=A0 As you say,=20
> if they're on the same machine, the distinction is almost moot.
>=20
> Agree.
>=20
> And if they're not, I think the communication is out of scope for RIV=20
> (if not for RATS).
>=20
> I disagree that it's out of scope for RATS.
>=20
> I have no opinion on whether it's out of scope for RIV, since I still=20
> have some confusion on the intended scope of RIV.
>=20
> I note that your document constrains its scope (in section 1.5) to=20
> only TPM-based embedded devices, and not other
>=20
> types of devices.=A0=A0 I couldn't tell if the scope of RIV and the scope=
=20
> of the draft (which does not have RIV in the name, or in
>=20
> section 1.5) are similar or one is a subset of the other.=A0=A0 Indeed,=20
> the title of the document is far wider than just TPM-based
>=20
> embedded devices, so in that sense the title doesn't match the scoping=20
> in section 1.5. =A0=A0Just explaining why there's not
>=20
> enough information for me to have an opinion on verifier-relying party=20
> communication in RIV.
>=20
> There can be other network attestation solutions that look quite=20
> different from the flow in your draft
>=20
> (and I have no skin in this game, so don't have a bias towards any=20
> solution in particular).=A0=A0 For example,
>=20
> some other solution might involve a RADIUS server being a Verifier, so=20
> the verifier - relying party communication might
>=20
> be RADIUS in that example.=A0=A0 There's many ways to construct solutions=
,=20
> and so I imagine there's probably multiple
>=20
> solutions already out there, since the NEA problem is not new even in=20
> the IETF=20
> (https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftoo
> ls.ietf.org%2Fwg%2Fnea%2F&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Cdthaler%40microsoft.com%7
> C9dfd693759294a279a9e08d7616d3410%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7
> C1%7C0%7C637085028413264089&amp;sdata=3DExcrMYn5%2Bvd%2FbSz1%2FZ7Wz4KB0D
> x%2Bd6KCaU6M2nweXw4%3D&amp;reserved=3D0 has
>=20
> pointers to RFCs for anyone reading this who's not already aware of it).
>=20
>  =A0 But it would be good ensure the architecture and the applications=20
> of it actually do fit together.
>=20
> Absolutely.
>=20
> Dave
>=20
>  =A0=A0Thanks
>=20
> /guy
>=20
> Juniper Business Use Only
>=20

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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
To: Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Thomas Hardjono <hardjono@mit.edu>, Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay <jmfmckay@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] RIV and the RATS architecture
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Subject: Re: [Rats] RIV and the RATS architecture
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From: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 14:32:29 -0500
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Agenda Requests
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On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 3:14 PM Henk Birkholz <
henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:

> Hi chairs,
> hi list,
>
> we came up with these requests:
>
> 05 min Current Status Report (incl. some overall hot-topics)
>

Hi Henk,

Can your "current status" be tied to a draft?  We are tight on time and I
didn't work it in yet as it sounds like a chairs item the way this reads.
Could you please clarify as I may be missing your intent.

Thank you,
Kathleen


> 15 min Use Cases (incl. 5-10min discussion)
> 30 min Architecture (incl. 10-15min discussion)
> 10 min C/R YANG Module (incl. scope and title discussion)
> 15 min C/R Interaction Model (incl. IM for protocol IE discussion)
>
> Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>
> Henk
>
>
>
>
> On 02.11.19 12:16, Kathleen Moriarty wrote:
> > Thank you, Giri.  Your request has been noted.  I'll post the proposed
> > agenda on Monday.  We are still waiting on some requests, but will post
> > on Monday regardless.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Kathleen
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 1, 2019 at 1:50 PM Giridhar Mandyam
> > <mandyam@qti.qualcomm.com <mailto:mandyam@qti.qualcomm.com>> wrote:
> >
> >     I would request 5 minutes to introduce
> >     https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-mandyam-rats-qwestoken-00.txt and
> >     summarize claim differences between it and EAT.____
> >
> >     __ __
> >
> >     Thanks,____
> >
> >     __ __
> >
> >     -Giri____
> >
> >     __ __
> >
> >     *From:* RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>>
> >     *On Behalf Of * Kathleen Moriarty
> >     *Sent:* Monday, October 28, 2019 7:37 AM
> >     *To:* rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org>
> >     *Subject:* [Rats] Agenda Requests____
> >
> >     __ __
> >
> >     *CAUTION*: This email originated from outside of the
> organization.____
> >
> >     Greetings!____
> >
> >     __ __
> >
> >     This is an official call for agenda items.  We have received some
> >     and will be sorting through those to post soon, but would like to
> >     make an official call for agenda items.____
> >
> >     __ __
> >
> >     -- ____
> >
> >     __ __
> >
> >     Best regards,____
> >
> >     Kathleen____
> >
> >     _______________________________________________
> >     RATS mailing list
> >     RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
> >     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Kathleen
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > RATS mailing list
> > RATS@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>


--=20

Best regards,
Kathleen

--0000000000005091bf05969e80b1
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 3:14 PM Henk B=
irkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de">henk.birkhol=
z@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204)=
;padding-left:1ex">Hi chairs,<br>
hi list,<br>
<br>
we came up with these requests:<br>
<br>
05 min Current Status Report (incl. some overall hot-topics)<br></blockquot=
e><div><br></div><div>Hi Henk,</div><div><br></div><div>Can your &quot;curr=
ent status&quot; be tied to a draft?=C2=A0 We are tight on time and I didn&=
#39;t work it in yet as it sounds like a chairs item the way this reads.=C2=
=A0 Could you please clarify as I may be missing your intent.</div><div><br=
></div><div>Thank you,</div><div>Kathleen</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px so=
lid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
15 min Use Cases (incl. 5-10min discussion)<br>
30 min Architecture (incl. 10-15min discussion)<br>
10 min C/R YANG Module (incl. scope and title discussion)<br>
15 min C/R Interaction Model (incl. IM for protocol IE discussion)<br>
<br>
Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,<br>
<br>
Henk<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 02.11.19 12:16, Kathleen Moriarty wrote:<br>
&gt; Thank you, Giri.=C2=A0 Your request has been noted.=C2=A0 I&#39;ll pos=
t the proposed <br>
&gt; agenda on Monday.=C2=A0 We are still waiting=C2=A0on some requests, bu=
t will post <br>
&gt; on Monday regardless.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Best regards,<br>
&gt; Kathleen<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; On Fri, Nov 1, 2019 at 1:50 PM Giridhar Mandyam <br>
&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mandyam@qti.qualcomm.com" target=3D"_blank">mand=
yam@qti.qualcomm.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mandyam@qti.qualcomm.=
com" target=3D"_blank">mandyam@qti.qualcomm.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I would request 5 minutes to introduce<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-mandyam-=
rats-qwestoken-00.txt" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://tools.i=
etf.org/id/draft-mandyam-rats-qwestoken-00.txt</a> and<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0summarize claim differences between it and EAT.____=
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Thanks,____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-Giri____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*From:* RATS &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@iet=
f.org" target=3D"_blank">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:rats-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;=
&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*On Behalf Of * Kathleen Moriarty<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*Sent:* Monday, October 28, 2019 7:37 AM<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*To:* <a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" target=3D"_b=
lank">rats@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">rats@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*Subject:* [Rats] Agenda Requests____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*CAUTION*: This email originated from outside of th=
e organization.____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Greetings!____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This is an official call for agenda items.=C2=A0 We=
 have received some<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and will be sorting through those to post soon, but=
 would like to<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0make an official call for agenda items.____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-- ____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Best regards,____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Kathleen____<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0_______________________________________________<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0RATS mailing list<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">=
RATS@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">RATS@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ra=
ts" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listi=
nfo/rats</a><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; -- <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Best regards,<br>
&gt; Kathleen<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; RATS mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">RATS@ietf.org</a><b=
r>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats" rel=3D"noreferr=
er" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats</a><br>
&gt; <br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
RATS mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">RATS@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"=
 class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div>Best regards,</div><di=
v>Kathleen</div></div></div></div>

--0000000000005091bf05969e80b1--


From nobody Tue Nov  5 11:47:40 2019
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To: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
CC: <rats@ietf.org>
References: <CAHbuEH5MG+Xf0kh3f+i4ituL=rVWBPuqxRfET=DjGPrg-MkU+A@mail.gmail.com> <DM5PR02MB316296DD2FBB624B16FEEC9481620@DM5PR02MB3162.namprd02.prod.outlook.com> <CAHbuEH6CH5oY-eW_=4BOVdywvPk5qB-7=fP_FSGSY+0VDS0GJg@mail.gmail.com> <c6b4db03-f5dd-af49-6d54-99b1cefb353a@sit.fraunhofer.de> <CAHbuEH471+BSzBe+eo-Ow2UAQjt-ttxRpLmvrNjrK040dPib=w@mail.gmail.com>
From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 20:47:23 +0100
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Agenda Requests
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Hi Kathleen,

this is not about a single I-D, but about moving and structuring I-D 
content across I-Ds. If you can benefit from 5 more minutes, I am happy 
to give them back and we can try to start that on the list.

Viele Grüße,

Henk

On 05.11.19 20:32, Kathleen Moriarty wrote:
> 
> 
> On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 3:14 PM Henk Birkholz 
> <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de 
> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
> 
>     Hi chairs,
>     hi list,
> 
>     we came up with these requests:
> 
>     05 min Current Status Report (incl. some overall hot-topics)
> 
> 
> Hi Henk,
> 
> Can your "current status" be tied to a draft?  We are tight on time and 
> I didn't work it in yet as it sounds like a chairs item the way this 
> reads.  Could you please clarify as I may be missing your intent.
> 
> Thank you,
> Kathleen
> 
>     15 min Use Cases (incl. 5-10min discussion)
>     30 min Architecture (incl. 10-15min discussion)
>     10 min C/R YANG Module (incl. scope and title discussion)
>     15 min C/R Interaction Model (incl. IM for protocol IE discussion)
> 
>     Viele Grüße,
> 
>     Henk
> 
> 
> 
> 
>     On 02.11.19 12:16, Kathleen Moriarty wrote:
>      > Thank you, Giri.  Your request has been noted.  I'll post the
>     proposed
>      > agenda on Monday.  We are still waiting on some requests, but
>     will post
>      > on Monday regardless.
>      >
>      > Best regards,
>      > Kathleen
>      >
>      > On Fri, Nov 1, 2019 at 1:50 PM Giridhar Mandyam
>      > <mandyam@qti.qualcomm.com <mailto:mandyam@qti.qualcomm.com>
>     <mailto:mandyam@qti.qualcomm.com <mailto:mandyam@qti.qualcomm.com>>>
>     wrote:
>      >
>      >     I would request 5 minutes to introduce
>      > https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-mandyam-rats-qwestoken-00.txt and
>      >     summarize claim differences between it and EAT.____
>      >
>      >     __ __
>      >
>      >     Thanks,____
>      >
>      >     __ __
>      >
>      >     -Giri____
>      >
>      >     __ __
>      >
>      >     *From:* RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org
>     <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org> <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org
>     <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>>>
>      >     *On Behalf Of * Kathleen Moriarty
>      >     *Sent:* Monday, October 28, 2019 7:37 AM
>      >     *To:* rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org>
>     <mailto:rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org>>
>      >     *Subject:* [Rats] Agenda Requests____
>      >
>      >     __ __
>      >
>      >     *CAUTION*: This email originated from outside of the
>     organization.____
>      >
>      >     Greetings!____
>      >
>      >     __ __
>      >
>      >     This is an official call for agenda items.  We have received some
>      >     and will be sorting through those to post soon, but would like to
>      >     make an official call for agenda items.____
>      >
>      >     __ __
>      >
>      >     -- ____
>      >
>      >     __ __
>      >
>      >     Best regards,____
>      >
>      >     Kathleen____
>      >
>      >     _______________________________________________
>      >     RATS mailing list
>      > RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org> <mailto:RATS@ietf.org
>     <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>>
>      > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>      >
>      >
>      >
>      > --
>      >
>      > Best regards,
>      > Kathleen
>      >
>      > _______________________________________________
>      > RATS mailing list
>      > RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
>      > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>      >
> 
>     _______________________________________________
>     RATS mailing list
>     RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Best regards,
> Kathleen


From nobody Tue Nov  5 11:51:09 2019
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In-Reply-To: <b6320589-91c9-8667-1e81-8ef04c7faffe@sit.fraunhofer.de>
From: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2019 14:50:27 -0500
Message-ID: <CAHbuEH46HD=dT920FT0rfL8+bO7xh_3msaAnxJs377fxzuH-Kw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
Cc: rats@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Agenda Requests
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Thanks, Henk.  Please do discuss on the list as that may help the chairs in
advance of the session as well well as participants.

Best regards,
Kathleen

On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 2:47 PM Henk Birkholz <
henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:

> Hi Kathleen,
>
> this is not about a single I-D, but about moving and structuring I-D
> content across I-Ds. If you can benefit from 5 more minutes, I am happy
> to give them back and we can try to start that on the list.
>
> Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>
> Henk
>
> On 05.11.19 20:32, Kathleen Moriarty wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 3:14 PM Henk Birkholz
> > <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de
> > <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
> >
> >     Hi chairs,
> >     hi list,
> >
> >     we came up with these requests:
> >
> >     05 min Current Status Report (incl. some overall hot-topics)
> >
> >
> > Hi Henk,
> >
> > Can your "current status" be tied to a draft?  We are tight on time and
> > I didn't work it in yet as it sounds like a chairs item the way this
> > reads.  Could you please clarify as I may be missing your intent.
> >
> > Thank you,
> > Kathleen
> >
> >     15 min Use Cases (incl. 5-10min discussion)
> >     30 min Architecture (incl. 10-15min discussion)
> >     10 min C/R YANG Module (incl. scope and title discussion)
> >     15 min C/R Interaction Model (incl. IM for protocol IE discussion)
> >
> >     Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
> >
> >     Henk
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >     On 02.11.19 12:16, Kathleen Moriarty wrote:
> >      > Thank you, Giri.  Your request has been noted.  I'll post the
> >     proposed
> >      > agenda on Monday.  We are still waiting on some requests, but
> >     will post
> >      > on Monday regardless.
> >      >
> >      > Best regards,
> >      > Kathleen
> >      >
> >      > On Fri, Nov 1, 2019 at 1:50 PM Giridhar Mandyam
> >      > <mandyam@qti.qualcomm.com <mailto:mandyam@qti.qualcomm.com>
> >     <mailto:mandyam@qti.qualcomm.com <mailto:mandyam@qti.qualcomm.com>>=
>
> >     wrote:
> >      >
> >      >     I would request 5 minutes to introduce
> >      > https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-mandyam-rats-qwestoken-00.txt an=
d
> >      >     summarize claim differences between it and EAT.____
> >      >
> >      >     __ __
> >      >
> >      >     Thanks,____
> >      >
> >      >     __ __
> >      >
> >      >     -Giri____
> >      >
> >      >     __ __
> >      >
> >      >     *From:* RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org
> >     <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org> <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org
> >     <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>>>
> >      >     *On Behalf Of * Kathleen Moriarty
> >      >     *Sent:* Monday, October 28, 2019 7:37 AM
> >      >     *To:* rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org>
> >     <mailto:rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org>>
> >      >     *Subject:* [Rats] Agenda Requests____
> >      >
> >      >     __ __
> >      >
> >      >     *CAUTION*: This email originated from outside of the
> >     organization.____
> >      >
> >      >     Greetings!____
> >      >
> >      >     __ __
> >      >
> >      >     This is an official call for agenda items.  We have received
> some
> >      >     and will be sorting through those to post soon, but would
> like to
> >      >     make an official call for agenda items.____
> >      >
> >      >     __ __
> >      >
> >      >     -- ____
> >      >
> >      >     __ __
> >      >
> >      >     Best regards,____
> >      >
> >      >     Kathleen____
> >      >
> >      >     _______________________________________________
> >      >     RATS mailing list
> >      > RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org> <mailto:RATS@ietf.org
> >     <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>>
> >      > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
> >      >
> >      >
> >      >
> >      > --
> >      >
> >      > Best regards,
> >      > Kathleen
> >      >
> >      > _______________________________________________
> >      > RATS mailing list
> >      > RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
> >      > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
> >      >
> >
> >     _______________________________________________
> >     RATS mailing list
> >     RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
> >     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Kathleen
>


--=20

Best regards,
Kathleen

--00000000000097208305969ec021
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Thanks, Henk.=C2=A0 Please do discuss on the list as that =
may help the chairs in advance of the session as well well as participants.=
<div><br></div><div>Best regards,</div><div>Kathleen</div></div><br><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Nov 5, 20=
19 at 2:47 PM Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunho=
fer.de">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px so=
lid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi Kathleen,<br>
<br>
this is not about a single I-D, but about moving and structuring I-D <br>
content across I-Ds. If you can benefit from 5 more minutes, I am happy <br=
>
to give them back and we can try to start that on the list.<br>
<br>
Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,<br>
<br>
Henk<br>
<br>
On 05.11.19 20:32, Kathleen Moriarty wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; On Sat, Nov 2, 2019 at 3:14 PM Henk Birkholz <br>
&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blan=
k">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a> <br>
&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=
=3D"_blank">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi chairs,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0hi list,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0we came up with these requests:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A005 min Current Status Report (incl. some overall ho=
t-topics)<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Hi Henk,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Can your &quot;current status&quot; be tied to a draft?=C2=A0 We are t=
ight on time and <br>
&gt; I didn&#39;t work it in yet as it sounds like a chairs item the way th=
is <br>
&gt; reads.=C2=A0 Could you please clarify as I may be missing your intent.=
<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Thank you,<br>
&gt; Kathleen<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A015 min Use Cases (incl. 5-10min discussion)<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A030 min Architecture (incl. 10-15min discussion)<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A010 min C/R YANG Module (incl. scope and title discu=
ssion)<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A015 min C/R Interaction Model (incl. IM for protocol=
 IE discussion)<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Henk<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On 02.11.19 12:16, Kathleen Moriarty wrote:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Thank you, Giri.=C2=A0 Your request has been =
noted.=C2=A0 I&#39;ll post the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0proposed<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; agenda on Monday.=C2=A0 We are still waiting=
=C2=A0on some requests, but<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0will post<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; on Monday regardless.<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Best regards,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Kathleen<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; On Fri, Nov 1, 2019 at 1:50 PM Giridhar Mandy=
am<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mandyam@qti.qualcomm.co=
m" target=3D"_blank">mandyam@qti.qualcomm.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mai=
lto:mandyam@qti.qualcomm.com" target=3D"_blank">mandyam@qti.qualcomm.com</a=
>&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:mandyam@qti.qualcomm.c=
om" target=3D"_blank">mandyam@qti.qualcomm.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:mandyam@qti.qualcomm.com" target=3D"_blank">mandyam@qti.qualcomm.com</=
a>&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0wrote:<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I would request 5 minutes =
to introduce<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; <a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-ma=
ndyam-rats-qwestoken-00.txt" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://t=
ools.ietf.org/id/draft-mandyam-rats-qwestoken-00.txt</a> and<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0summarize claim difference=
s between it and EAT.____<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Thanks,____<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-Giri____<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*From:* RATS &lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rats-bounces@ietf.org</=
a><br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org"=
 target=3D"_blank">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mail=
to:rats-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org"=
 target=3D"_blank">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*On Behalf Of * Kathleen M=
oriarty<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*Sent:* Monday, October 28=
, 2019 7:37 AM<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*To:* <a href=3D"mailto:ra=
ts@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rats@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mail=
to:rats@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rats@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">rats@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" t=
arget=3D"_blank">rats@ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*Subject:* [Rats] Agenda R=
equests____<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0*CAUTION*: This email orig=
inated from outside of the<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0organization.____<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Greetings!____<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This is an official call f=
or agenda items.=C2=A0 We have received some<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0and will be sorting throug=
h those to post soon, but would like to<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0make an official call for =
agenda items.____<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-- ____<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__ __<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Best regards,____<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Kathleen____<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0__________________________=
_____________________<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0RATS mailing list<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" target=3D"_b=
lank">RATS@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">RATS@ietf.org</a>&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.or=
g" target=3D"_blank">RATS@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">RATS@ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listi=
nfo/rats" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman=
/listinfo/rats</a><br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; --<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Best regards,<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; Kathleen<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; _____________________________________________=
__<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; RATS mailing list<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; <a href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" target=3D"_b=
lank">RATS@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">RATS@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listi=
nfo/rats" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman=
/listinfo/rats</a><br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt;<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0_______________________________________________<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0RATS mailing list<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">=
RATS@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" target=3D"_bl=
ank">RATS@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ra=
ts" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listi=
nfo/rats</a><br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; -- <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Best regards,<br>
&gt; Kathleen<br>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"=
 class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div>Best regards,</div><di=
v>Kathleen</div></div></div>

--00000000000097208305969ec021--


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Subject: [Rats] Out-of-band key material set up in architecture document
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	charset=utf-8

An issue I have with both the current architecture documents is that =
they do not discuss the need for some out of band key material set up to =
make verification work.

The manufacturer of the device must put some private key into each =
device so that the device can sign attestation evidence. Most likely the =
manufacturer also creates the verifying key material, but they may or =
may not be the verifier.  If they are not the verifier, somehow the =
verifier of attestation evidence must have corresponding key material to =
verify the signature.

This paragraph could be a start of the text. I think this is a critical =
part of the architecture because attestation doesn=E2=80=99t work =
without it.=20

I do NOT want to specify any details for how this happens in the =
architecture doc. It needs to stay at a high level. It stays at a high =
level in other places. For example it discusses claims, but doesn=E2=80=99=
t defined individual claims.

I think there=E2=80=99s a large parallel with HTTPS. HTTPS wouldn=E2=80=99=
t work without some out-of-band distribution of certs/keys for =
verification.

Just like with HTTPS, there are a lot of different business models, =
protocols and end-end systems that this out-of-band set can be done. =
Here=E2=80=99s a few that are real today and publicly described:

- Intel EPID (no X.509, the ECDAA algorithm, a service run exclusively =
by Intel for Intel chips for fee)
- Android Attestation (buckets of keys distributed to phone makers, =
X.509, a verification service run exclusively by Google)
- FIDO Metadata service (a 3rd party doing X.509 certificate =
distribution for many FIDO vendors)

I also know of some that are not publicly described that do not use =
X.509, some even using symmetric key material.

I think business models will drive architecture in some cases. I also =
think the cost of putting keys into chips and devices is a another =
driver. A third driver is big IoT back-end service providers like Amazon =
and Google.

I mention all these only illustrate the variety and thus the futility of =
trying to come up with one standard way.

However, I think to help the world get their heads around how =
attestation works; leaving this out of the architecture would be leaving =
a critical part out.

LL


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">An =
issue I have with both the current architecture documents is that they =
do not discuss the need for some out of band key material set up to make =
verification work.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">The manufacturer of the device must put some private key into =
each device so that the device can sign attestation evidence. Most =
likely the manufacturer also creates the verifying key material, but =
they may or may not be the verifier. &nbsp;If they are not the verifier, =
somehow the verifier of attestation evidence must have corresponding key =
material to verify the signature.</div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This paragraph could be a start of the =
text. I think this is a critical part of the architecture because =
attestation doesn=E2=80=99t work without it.&nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I do NOT want to specify =
any details for how this happens in the architecture doc. It needs to =
stay at a high level. It stays at a high level in other places. For =
example it discusses claims, but doesn=E2=80=99t defined individual =
claims.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">I think there=E2=80=99s a large parallel with HTTPS. HTTPS =
wouldn=E2=80=99t work without some out-of-band distribution of =
certs/keys for verification.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Just like with HTTPS, there are a lot =
of different business models, protocols and end-end systems that this =
out-of-band set can be done. Here=E2=80=99s a few that are real today =
and publicly described:</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">- Intel EPID (no X.509, the ECDAA algorithm, a service run =
exclusively by Intel for Intel chips for fee)</div><div class=3D"">- =
Android Attestation (buckets of keys distributed to phone makers, X.509, =
a verification service run exclusively by Google)</div><div class=3D"">- =
FIDO Metadata service (a 3rd party doing X.509 certificate distribution =
for many FIDO vendors)</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">I also know of some that are not publicly described that do =
not use X.509, some even using symmetric key material.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I think business models =
will drive architecture in some cases. I also think the cost of putting =
keys into chips and devices is a another driver. A third driver is big =
IoT back-end service providers like Amazon and Google.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I mention all these only =
illustrate the variety and thus the futility of trying to come up with =
one standard way.</div></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">However, I think to help the world get their heads around how =
attestation works; leaving this out of the architecture would be leaving =
a critical part out.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" <ncamwing@cisco.com>
To: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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From: Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] Out-of-band key material set up in architecture document
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Out-of-band key material set up in architecture document
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Out-of-band key material set up in architecture document
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> On Nov 5, 2019, at 3:40 PM, Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>=20
> Inline below=E2=80=A6
> =20
> From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>> On =
Behalf Of Laurence Lundblade
> Sent: Tuesday, November 5, 2019 12:17 PM
> To: rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org>
> Subject: [Rats] Out-of-band key material set up in architecture =
document
> =20
> An issue I have with both the current architecture documents is that =
they do not discuss the need for some out of band key material set up to =
make verification work.
> =20
> The manufacturer of the device must put some private key into each =
device so that the device can sign attestation evidence. Most likely the =
manufacturer also creates the verifying key material, but they may or =
may not be the verifier.  If they are not the verifier, somehow the =
verifier of attestation evidence must have corresponding key material to =
verify the signature.
> =20
> This paragraph could be a start of the text. I think this is a =
critical part of the architecture because attestation doesn=E2=80=99t =
work without it.=20
> =20
> I agree that a private key is needed in each device for attestation to =
work (at least using any techniques
> I=E2=80=99m aware of). Saying =E2=80=9Cthe manufacturer must put it =
there=E2=80=9D, is however I think too narrow, as it implies the
> manufacturer actually knows the key. In some arguably more secure =
designs, the device itself creates the
> key pair and the manufacturer per se never knows the private key, only =
the public key, so it would be
> confusing to say the manufacturer =E2=80=9Cput=E2=80=9D it there, or =
that the =E2=80=9Cmanufacturer creates=E2=80=9D the key material.

We could say =E2=80=9Cestablish the signing key=E2=80=9D? Certainly =
don=E2=80=99t want to exclude those more secure designs.

> =20
> ...
> =20
> Furthermore, the RATS charter does not constrain attestation to only =
*hardware* based roots of trust.
> There are some cases where it may be in a hypervisor or bios or =
firmware or whatever, and only attest
> things above that, with obviously a weaker level of security than =
hardware-rooted attestation.   But any
> protocol mechanisms should still work (mainly because it=E2=80=99s =
almost impossible to rule them out except via
> a security policy that says which keys to trust), even if it=E2=80=99s =
not the primary focus we care most about.  The
> point here being that in such a case it may not be the =
=E2=80=9Cmanufacturer=E2=80=9D, but may be another entity.  That=E2=80=99s=

> actually true in some cases even for hardware-based roots of trust.

Yes, the =E2=80=9Cmanufacturer=E2=80=9D could be a SW vendor or even the =
author of a dumb Android app. We need a much broader term or =
description.

LL


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class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Nov 5, 2019, at 3:40 PM, Dave Thaler &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dthaler@microsoft.com" =
class=3D"">dthaler@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
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text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Inline below=E2=80=A6<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt =
0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; =
border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: =
3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:=
 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>RATS &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;<span=
 class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">On Behalf =
Of<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Laurence =
Lundblade<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Tuesday, November 5, 2019 =
12:17 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">rats@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><b=
 class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>[Rats] Out-of-band key =
material set up in architecture document<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">An issue I have with =
both the current architecture documents is that they do not discuss the =
need for some out of band key material set up to make verification =
work.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-left: =
30pt; margin-right: 0in;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">The manufacturer of the device must put =
some private key into each device so that the device can sign =
attestation evidence. Most likely the manufacturer also creates the =
verifying key material, but they may or may not be the verifier. =
&nbsp;If they are not the verifier, somehow the verifier of attestation =
evidence must have corresponding key material to verify the =
signature.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: =
12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">This paragraph could be a start of the =
text. I think this is a critical part of the architecture because =
attestation doesn=E2=80=99t work without it.&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I agree that a =
private key is needed in each device for attestation to work (at least =
using any techniques<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I=E2=80=99m aware =
of). Saying =E2=80=9Cthe manufacturer must put it there=E2=80=9D, is =
however I think too narrow, as it implies the<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">manufacturer actually knows the key. In some =
arguably more secure designs, the device itself creates the<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">key pair and the manufacturer per se never knows =
the private key, only the public key, so it would be<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">confusing to say the manufacturer =E2=80=9Cput=E2=80=
=9D it there, or that the =E2=80=9Cmanufacturer creates=E2=80=9D the key =
material.</span></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>We could say =E2=80=9Cestablish the signing =
key=E2=80=9D? Certainly don=E2=80=99t want to exclude those more secure =
designs.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; =
caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;"><div class=3D""><div style=3D"font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif; font-size: 12pt; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif; font-size: =
12pt; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt;" class=3D""><font face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 14.666666984558105px;" =
class=3D"">...</span></font></div><div style=3D"font-family: &quot;Times =
New Roman&quot;, serif; font-size: 12pt; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif; font-size: =
12pt; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Furthermore, the =
RATS charter does not constrain attestation to only *<b =
class=3D"">hardware</b>* based roots of trust.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif; font-size: 12pt; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">There are some cases where it may be in a =
hypervisor or bios or firmware or whatever, and only attest<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif; font-size: 12pt; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">things above that, with obviously a weaker level =
of security than hardware-rooted attestation.&nbsp;&nbsp; But any<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif; font-size: 12pt; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">protocol mechanisms should still work (mainly =
because it=E2=80=99s almost impossible to rule them out except via<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif; font-size: 12pt; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">a security policy that says which keys to =
trust), even if it=E2=80=99s not the primary focus we care most =
about.&nbsp; The<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif; font-size: =
12pt; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">point here being =
that in such a case it may not be the =E2=80=9Cmanufacturer=E2=80=9D, =
but may be another entity.&nbsp; That=E2=80=99s<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif; font-size: 12pt; margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">actually true in some cases even for =
hardware-based roots of =
trust.</span></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Yes, the =E2=80=9Cmanufacturer=E2=80=9D could be a =
SW vendor or even the author of a dumb Android app. We need a much =
broader term or description.</div><div><br class=3D""></div>LL</div><br =
class=3D""></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_149AF028-8C07-4BAB-B5EC-1675FA879DC5--


From nobody Wed Nov  6 09:14:20 2019
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From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Out-of-band key material set up in architecture document
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Hi Dave,
hi list,

the scope of the architecture was discussed a lot. It is okay to provide 
a bigger picture here, as the "phasing approach" will allow to talk 
about the attestation provisioning flows later on. Ben accompanied that 
decision process and I think he might be able to restate that :)

I think we are all in wild agreement here wrt to:

> "the manufacturer must put it there”, is however I think too narrow

We do not have to be prescriptive about any things here anyways, but to 
be descriptive or illustrative is very helpful.

In this quite prominent scenario:

> In some arguably more secure designs, the device itself creates the key pair and the manufacturer per se never knows the private key, only the public key,

the manufacturer provisioned something that made this happen (and 
therefore took measures to render the public key meaningful).

Viele Grüße,

Henk

On 06.11.19 17:58, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Nov 5, 2019, at 3:40 PM, Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com 
>> <mailto:dthaler@microsoft.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Inline below…
>> *From:*RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>>*On 
>> Behalf Of*Laurence Lundblade
>> *Sent:*Tuesday, November 5, 2019 12:17 PM
>> *To:*rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org>
>> *Subject:*[Rats] Out-of-band key material set up in architecture document
>> An issue I have with both the current architecture documents is that 
>> they do not discuss the need for some out of band key material set up 
>> to make verification work.
>>
>>     The manufacturer of the device must put some private key into each
>>     device so that the device can sign attestation evidence. Most
>>     likely the manufacturer also creates the verifying key material,
>>     but they may or may not be the verifier.  If they are not the
>>     verifier, somehow the verifier of attestation evidence must have
>>     corresponding key material to verify the signature.
>>
>> This paragraph could be a start of the text. I think this is a 
>> critical part of the architecture because attestation doesn’t work 
>> without it.
>> I agree that a private key is needed in each device for attestation to 
>> work (at least using any techniques
>> I’m aware of). Saying “the manufacturer must put it there”, is however 
>> I think too narrow, as it implies the
>> manufacturer actually knows the key. In some arguably more secure 
>> designs, the device itself creates the
>> key pair and the manufacturer per se never knows the private key, only 
>> the public key, so it would be
>> confusing to say the manufacturer “put” it there, or that the 
>> “manufacturer creates” the key material.
> 
> We could say “establish the signing key”? Certainly don’t want to 
> exclude those more secure designs.
> 
>> ...
>> Furthermore, the RATS charter does not constrain attestation to only 
>> **hardware** based roots of trust.
>> There are some cases where it may be in a hypervisor or bios or 
>> firmware or whatever, and only attest
>> things above that, with obviously a weaker level of security than 
>> hardware-rooted attestation.   But any
>> protocol mechanisms should still work (mainly because it’s almost 
>> impossible to rule them out except via
>> a security policy that says which keys to trust), even if it’s not the 
>> primary focus we care most about.  The
>> point here being that in such a case it may not be the “manufacturer”, 
>> but may be another entity.  That’s
>> actually true in some cases even for hardware-based roots of trust.
> 
> Yes, the “manufacturer” could be a SW vendor or even the author of a 
> dumb Android app. We need a much broader term or description.
> 
> LL
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
> 


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From: Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net>
To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Rats] Out-of-band key material set up in architecture document
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/ih7SP4FBIVZqJFm0_Tm3dPn4DnQ>
Subject: Re: [Rats] Out-of-band key material set up in architecture document
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Thread-Topic: Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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Nancy,
  I'm fine with this proposal
  Thx
/guy




Juniper Business Use Only
From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)
Sent: Tuesday, November 5, 2019 5:55 PM
To: rats@ietf.org
Subject: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draf=
t

All,
Thanks for the feedback and responses received thus far on the https://data=
tracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module/<https://urldefe=
nse.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang=
-module/__;!8WoA6RjC81c!UMJUzm2VocF8BEy9_UYeBtXkmzvaiZpxgF45wUJxlo1AbOhpLfB=
KpM2Dn6sLOAZCdRs$>
draft.

There  was consensus that the focus of the draft is more about TPM based at=
testations so the draft should be modified accordingly.  A suggested title =
would be "Yang Module for TPM based Remote Attestations", the file, once ad=
opted, would be renamed to draf -rats-tpm-yang-module

With this proposed update, this is a call for adoption for that draft with =
the modified name.  We would like to close the confirmation by the Friday o=
f the IETF 106, e.g. Friday Nov 22 EOD (IETF time).  If you have objections=
 on adopting the draft, please state your rationale as well.

Warm regards,
                Nancy

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Nancy,<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">&nbsp; I&#8217;m fi=
ne with this proposal<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">&nbsp; Thx<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">/guy<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">From:</span></b>=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"> RATS &lt;rats-bounces@ietf.org&gt;
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, November 5, 2019 5:55 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> rats@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang modu=
le draft<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">All,<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Thanks for the feed=
back and responses received thus far on the
</span><a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/d=
oc/draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module/__;!8WoA6RjC81c!UMJUzm2VocF8BEy9_U=
YeBtXkmzvaiZpxgF45wUJxlo1AbOhpLfBKpM2Dn6sLOAZCdRs$">https://datatracker.iet=
f.org/doc/draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">draft.&nbsp; <o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">There &nbsp;was con=
sensus that the focus of the draft is more about TPM based attestations so =
the draft should be modified accordingly.&nbsp; A suggested title would be =
&#8220;</span><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:-webkit-standard;=
color:black">Yang
 Module for TPM based Remote Attestations</span><span style=3D"font-size:11=
.0pt">&#8221;, the file, once adopted, would be renamed to draf -rats-tpm-y=
ang-module<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">With this proposed =
update, this is a call for adoption for that draft with the modified name.&=
nbsp; We would like to close the confirmation by the Friday of the IETF 106=
, e.g. Friday Nov 22 EOD (IETF time).&nbsp; If
 you have objections on adopting the draft, please state your rationale as =
well.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Warm regards, <o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Nan=
cy <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From nobody Wed Nov  6 11:44:11 2019
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Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 11:44:03 -0800
In-Reply-To: <8B173958-FC2A-4D1D-A81C-F324AB632CD7@cisco.com>
Cc: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
To: "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" <ncamwing@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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I think we have accepted that this WG will do standardization for / =
around the following attestation token formats (aka attestation evidence =
formats):
EAT (lots of detailed work in IETF to define)
JWT
CWT
(possibly also ASN.1 / X.509)
TCG (fixed years ago by the TCG)
TPM 1.2 signed Quote
TPM 2 signed Audit Session

I think any conveyance protocol we work on MUST carry all of these. I =
don=E2=80=99t think this is hard. If it were hard I wouldn=E2=80=99t say =
this.

To adopt the YANG module, I think it should be modified to carry =
EAT/JWT/CWT and retain its name. It can still have the other =
TPM-specific stuff in it for use when in TPM mode, but it should have an =
EAT mode too.

LL


> On Nov 5, 2019, at 2:54 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) =
<ncamwing@cisco.com> wrote:
>=20
> All,
> Thanks for the feedback and responses received thus far on the =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module/ =
<https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module/>
> draft. =20
> =20
> There  was consensus that the focus of the draft is more about TPM =
based attestations so the draft should be modified accordingly.  A =
suggested title would be =E2=80=9CYang Module for TPM based Remote =
Attestations=E2=80=9D, the file, once adopted, would be renamed to draf =
-rats-tpm-yang-module
> =20
> With this proposed update, this is a call for adoption for that draft =
with the modified name.  We would like to close the confirmation by the =
Friday of the IETF 106, e.g. Friday Nov 22 EOD (IETF time).  If you have =
objections on adopting the draft, please state your rationale as well.
> =20
> Warm regards,=20
>                 Nancy=20
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats>

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div>I think we have accepted that this WG will do =
standardization for / around the following attestation token formats =
(aka attestation evidence formats):</div><div><ul =
class=3D"MailOutline"><li class=3D"">EAT (lots of detailed work in IETF =
to define)</li><ul class=3D""><li class=3D"">JWT</li><li =
class=3D"">CWT</li><li class=3D"">(possibly also ASN.1 / =
X.509)</li></ul><li class=3D"">TCG (fixed years ago by the TCG)</li><ul =
class=3D""><li class=3D"">TPM 1.2 signed Quote</li><li class=3D"">TPM 2 =
signed Audit Session</li></ul></ul><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><div>I think any conveyance protocol we work on =
MUST carry all of these. I don=E2=80=99t think this is hard. If it were =
hard I wouldn=E2=80=99t say this.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>To =
adopt the YANG module, I think it should be modified to carry =
EAT/JWT/CWT and retain its name. It can still have the other =
TPM-specific stuff in it for use when in TPM mode, but it should have an =
EAT mode too.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>LL</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Nov 5, 2019, at 2:54 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget =
(ncamwing) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com" =
class=3D"">ncamwing@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">All,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">Thanks for the feedback and =
responses received thus far on the<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><a =
href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-mo=
dule/" style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang=
-module/</a><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">draft.&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">There &nbsp;was =
consensus that the focus of the draft is more about TPM based =
attestations so the draft should be modified accordingly.&nbsp; A =
suggested title would be =E2=80=9C</span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: -webkit-standard, serif;" class=3D"">Yang Module for TPM =
based Remote Attestations</span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" =
class=3D"">=E2=80=9D, the file, once adopted, would be renamed to draf =
-rats-tpm-yang-module<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">With this =
proposed update, this is a call for adoption for that draft with the =
modified name.&nbsp; We would like to close the confirmation by the =
Friday of the IETF 106, e.g. Friday Nov 22 EOD (IETF time).&nbsp; If you =
have objections on adopting the draft, please state your rationale as =
well.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">Warm =
regards,<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Nancy<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
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normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">RATS mailing list</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
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text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); =
text-decoration: underline; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
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0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">RATS@ietf.org</a><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
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text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats" style=3D"color: =
rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline; font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
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-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats</a></div></blockquot=
e></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=

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From nobody Wed Nov  6 12:09:34 2019
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To: Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>, "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" <ncamwing@cisco.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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I am fine with that proposal as well. Sorry for the latency, noisy inbox 
syndrome.

On 06.11.19 19:58, Guy Fedorkow wrote:
> Nancy,
> 
>    I’m fine with this proposal
> 
>    Thx
> 
> /guy
> 
> Juniper Business Use Only
> 
> *From:*RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of *Nancy Cam-Winget 
> (ncamwing)
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 5, 2019 5:55 PM
> *To:* rats@ietf.org
> *Subject:* [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module 
> draft
> 
> All,
> 
> Thanks for the feedback and responses received thus far on the 
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module/ 
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module/__;!8WoA6RjC81c!UMJUzm2VocF8BEy9_UYeBtXkmzvaiZpxgF45wUJxlo1AbOhpLfBKpM2Dn6sLOAZCdRs$>
> 
> draft.
> 
> There  was consensus that the focus of the draft is more about TPM based 
> attestations so the draft should be modified accordingly.  A suggested 
> title would be “Yang Module for TPM based Remote Attestations”, the 
> file, once adopted, would be renamed to draf -rats-tpm-yang-module
> 
> With this proposed update, this is a call for adoption for that draft 
> with the modified name.  We would like to close the confirmation by the 
> Friday of the IETF 106, e.g. Friday Nov 22 EOD (IETF time).  If you have 
> objections on adopting the draft, please state your rationale as well.
> 
> Warm regards,
> 
>                  Nancy
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
> 


From nobody Wed Nov  6 12:11:15 2019
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From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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And bad sequence of replies, too...

Does that have an impact on the title? I think it does not. Laurence?

Viele Grüße,

Henk

On 06.11.19 20:44, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
> I think we have accepted that this WG will do standardization for / 
> around the following attestation token formats (aka attestation evidence 
> formats):
> 
>   * EAT (lots of detailed work in IETF to define)
>       o JWT
>       o CWT
>       o (possibly also ASN.1 / X.509)
>   * TCG (fixed years ago by the TCG)
>       o TPM 1.2 signed Quote
>       o TPM 2 signed Audit Session
> 
> 
> I think any conveyance protocol we work on MUST carry all of these. I 
> don’t think this is hard. If it were hard I wouldn’t say this.
> 
> To adopt the YANG module, I think it should be modified to carry 
> EAT/JWT/CWT and retain its name. It can still have the other 
> TPM-specific stuff in it for use when in TPM mode, but it should have an 
> EAT mode too.
> 
> LL
> 
> 
>> On Nov 5, 2019, at 2:54 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) 
>> <ncamwing@cisco.com <mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com>> wrote:
>>
>> All,
>> Thanks for the feedback and responses received thus far on 
>> thehttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module/
>> draft.
>> There  was consensus that the focus of the draft is more about TPM 
>> based attestations so the draft should be modified accordingly.  A 
>> suggested title would be “Yang Module for TPM based Remote 
>> Attestations”, the file, once adopted, would be renamed to draf 
>> -rats-tpm-yang-module
>> With this proposed update, this is a call for adoption for that draft 
>> with the modified name.  We would like to close the confirmation by 
>> the Friday of the IETF 106, e.g. Friday Nov 22 EOD (IETF time).  If 
>> you have objections on adopting the draft, please state your rationale 
>> as well.
>> Warm regards,
>>                 Nancy
>> _______________________________________________
>> RATS mailing list
>> RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
> 


From nobody Wed Nov  6 12:24:20 2019
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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For a version of it that carries EATs, the current name, YANG Module for =
Basic Challenge-Response-based Remote Attestation Procedures, =
draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module-01 is fine IMO.

LL

> On Nov 6, 2019, at 12:10 PM, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
>=20
> And bad sequence of replies, too...
>=20
> Does that have an impact on the title? I think it does not. Laurence?
>=20
> Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>=20
> Henk
>=20
> On 06.11.19 20:44, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>> I think we have accepted that this WG will do standardization for / =
around the following attestation token formats (aka attestation evidence =
formats):
>>  * EAT (lots of detailed work in IETF to define)
>>      o JWT
>>      o CWT
>>      o (possibly also ASN.1 / X.509)
>>  * TCG (fixed years ago by the TCG)
>>      o TPM 1.2 signed Quote
>>      o TPM 2 signed Audit Session
>> I think any conveyance protocol we work on MUST carry all of these. I =
don=E2=80=99t think this is hard. If it were hard I wouldn=E2=80=99t say =
this.
>> To adopt the YANG module, I think it should be modified to carry =
EAT/JWT/CWT and retain its name. It can still have the other =
TPM-specific stuff in it for use when in TPM mode, but it should have an =
EAT mode too.
>> LL
>>> On Nov 5, 2019, at 2:54 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) =
<ncamwing@cisco.com <mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> All,
>>> Thanks for the feedback and responses received thus far on =
thehttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module/=

>>> draft.
>>> There  was consensus that the focus of the draft is more about TPM =
based attestations so the draft should be modified accordingly.  A =
suggested title would be =E2=80=9CYang Module for TPM based Remote =
Attestations=E2=80=9D, the file, once adopted, would be renamed to draf =
-rats-tpm-yang-module
>>> With this proposed update, this is a call for adoption for that =
draft with the modified name.  We would like to close the confirmation =
by the Friday of the IETF 106, e.g. Friday Nov 22 EOD (IETF time).  If =
you have objections on adopting the draft, please state your rationale =
as well.
>>> Warm regards,
>>>                 Nancy
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> RATS mailing list
>>> RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>> _______________________________________________
>> RATS mailing list
>> RATS@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats


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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/XqcZ2L-OncIyGO1wOopQCNgtaDU>
Subject: Re: [Rats] RIV and the RATS architecture
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Hi Dave,
  Ok, I suppose the model where the verifier communicates directly with the=
 attested device is a kind of sub-contracted full-service background check.=
  That's ok with me, as long as no one interprets the diagram as meaning th=
at the relying party must somehow insert itself into the exchange between V=
erifier and Attester.

  And I see what you mean about lining up the scope of RIV.  The draft has =
gone through a number of changes as we've tried to disentangle it from TCG =
tribal knowledge.
  I think the scope is set by a couple factors.
  The doc as written is clearly limited to TPM-based systems.  That's certa=
inly not the only way to manage a root of trust, but it's the one that's av=
ailable on a lot of gear already, and it's fairly stable and tightly spec'd=
.  From the TCG side, I'd expect there would be interest in extending the i=
deas to other TCG roots of trust such as DICE, but it seems that should be =
driven out of TCG.

  The limitation to Network Equipment is entirely a matter of expedience.  =
I think the approach would work easily in other embedded applications, alth=
ough YANG is likely a fixation only relevant to networking guys.  Other dom=
ains would presumably need other domain-specific protocols.

  I'll connect with Jessica to see if we can figure out how to align the na=
me and scope a bit better with the rest of the RATS world.

  Thanks
/guy




Juniper Business Use Only
From: Dave Thaler <dthaler=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Sent: Monday, November 4, 2019 3:56 PM
To: Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net>
Cc: rats@ietf.org; Thomas Hardjono <hardjono@mit.edu>; Smith, Ned <ned.smit=
h@intel.com>; Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>; Jessica Fitz=
gerald-McKay <jmfmckay@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: RIV and the RATS architecture

Hi Guy, sorry for the delay, I was at a conference (Open Source Summit, Con=
fidential Computing Consortium, and Linux Security Summit were all co-locat=
ed) all last week and traveling there/back.

Responses inline below...

From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf =
Of Guy Fedorkow
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2019 12:27 PM
To: Dave Thaler <dthaler=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org<mailto:dthaler=3D=
40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>>
Cc: rats@ietf.org<mailto:rats@ietf.org>; Thomas Hardjono <hardjono@mit.edu<=
mailto:hardjono@mit.edu>>; Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com<mailto:ned.smith=
@intel.com>>; Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de<mailto:henk.bi=
rkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>; Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay <jmfmckay@gmail.com<ma=
ilto:jmfmckay@gmail.com>>
Subject: [Rats] RIV and the RATS architecture

Hi Dave,
  Thanks for your doc https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thaler-rats-archite=
cture-00<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/nam06.safelinks.protection.outl=
ook.com/?url=3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Ftools.ietf.org*2Fhtml*2Fdraft-thaler-rats-arch=
itecture-00&data=3D02*7C01*7Cdthaler*40microsoft.com*7C520adf8cc884437d6395=
08d75e385c4d*7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47*7C1*7C0*7C63708146853754696=
0&sdata=3D20zFPTGCbLybPlTaNB2E6uSb3re0G2bYPGC8F9TNXis*3D&reserved=3D0__;JSU=
lJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!8WoA6RjC81c!Rpme4JKWETjOw_zisYJRdztjgIgNvTA_HZoPymMV_ggWZP=
8BkjOlbCzLuKc18WRBFIY$>.
  Do you have a view as to how the TPM-based attestation described in RIV w=
ould fit with the proposed categorization?
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-=
00<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.co=
m/?url=3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Ftools.ietf.org*2Fhtml*2Fdraft-fedorkow-rats-network-=
device-attestation-00&data=3D02*7C01*7Cdthaler*40microsoft.com*7C520adf8cc8=
84437d639508d75e385c4d*7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47*7C1*7C0*7C6370814=
68537556953&sdata=3DVTByXHpjuEMkojKjjly0i0BbnvujhB4fIpQaqiPFDKA*3D&reserved=
=3D0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!8WoA6RjC81c!Rpme4JKWETjOw_zisYJRdztjgIgNvTA_HZoP=
ymMV_ggWZP8BkjOlbCzLuKc1fEcZrRQ$>

Great question. From my reading of draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attes=
tation-00, it's a background check model, as section 2.3 of your doc explai=
ns:
>   3.  A Relying Party, which has access to the Verifier to request
>       attestation and to act on results.

That sentence above is by definition the background check model.
That is, the Attester talks to the Relying Party, the Relying Party then re=
quests a background check by consulting a Verifier,
and will accept whatever answer the Verifier decides.
There are ways where you could use the passport model for network device at=
testation,
but your document only covers the background check model.

  It doesn't seem to be a passport, since the attester only provides raw ev=
idence, not a pre-approved passport

Agreed, from my reading of your document.

  It doesn't seem to be a background check, as it's the verifier that colle=
cts and analyzes the evidence.

If I understand your point here, you're saying that the verifier talks dire=
ctly to the attester (e.g., by querying the yang module), without going bac=
k through the relying party, and that that seemed to you to be different fr=
om a classic "background check" diagram.  Did I get your point correctly?

If so, then I see it as a variation of the background check model, as oppos=
ed to a separate model per se.

  I'm not sure it matters to RIV, as we haven't drawn much distinction betw=
een the relying party and the verifier...  As you say, if they're on the sa=
me machine, the distinction is almost moot.

Agree.

And if they're not, I think the communication is out of scope for RIV (if n=
ot for RATS).

I disagree that it's out of scope for RATS.

I have no opinion on whether it's out of scope for RIV, since I still have =
some confusion on the intended scope of RIV.
I note that your document constrains its scope (in section 1.5) to only TPM=
-based embedded devices, and not other
types of devices.   I couldn't tell if the scope of RIV and the scope of th=
e draft (which does not have RIV in the name, or in
section 1.5) are similar or one is a subset of the other.   Indeed, the tit=
le of the document is far wider than just TPM-based
embedded devices, so in that sense the title doesn't match the scoping in s=
ection 1.5.   Just explaining why there's not
enough information for me to have an opinion on verifier-relying party comm=
unication in RIV.

There can be other network attestation solutions that look quite different =
from the flow in your draft
(and I have no skin in this game, so don't have a bias towards any solution=
 in particular).   For example,
some other solution might involve a RADIUS server being a Verifier, so the =
verifier - relying party communication might
be RADIUS in that example.   There's many ways to construct solutions, and =
so I imagine there's probably multiple
solutions already out there, since the NEA problem is not new even in the I=
ETF (https://tools.ietf.org/wg/nea/<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/tool=
s.ietf.org/wg/nea/__;!8WoA6RjC81c!Rpme4JKWETjOw_zisYJRdztjgIgNvTA_HZoPymMV_=
ggWZP8BkjOlbCzLuKc1mSGm10I$> has
pointers to RFCs for anyone reading this who's not already aware of it).

  But it would be good ensure the architecture and the applications of it a=
ctually do fit together...

Absolutely.

Dave

  Thanks
/guy






Juniper Business Use Only

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Dave,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; Ok, I suppose the model where the verifier co=
mmunicates directly with the attested device is a kind of sub-contracted fu=
ll-service background check.&nbsp; That&#8217;s ok with me, as long as no o=
ne interprets the diagram as meaning that the relying
 party must somehow insert itself into the exchange between Verifier and At=
tester.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; And I see what you mean about lining up the s=
cope of RIV.&nbsp; The draft has gone through a number of changes as we&#82=
17;ve tried to disentangle it from TCG tribal knowledge.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; I think the scope is set by a couple factors.=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; The doc as written is clearly limited to TPM-=
based systems.&nbsp; That&#8217;s certainly not the only way to manage a ro=
ot of trust, but it&#8217;s the one that&#8217;s available on a lot of gear=
 already, and it&#8217;s fairly stable and tightly spec&#8217;d.&nbsp; From=
 the
 TCG side, I&#8217;d expect there would be interest in extending the ideas =
to other TCG roots of trust such as DICE, but it seems that should be drive=
n out of TCG.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; The limitation to Network Equipment is entire=
ly a matter of expedience.&nbsp; I think the approach would work easily in =
other embedded applications, although YANG is likely a fixation only releva=
nt to networking guys. &nbsp;Other domains would
 presumably need other domain-specific protocols.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; I&#8217;ll connect with Jessica to see if we =
can figure out how to align the name and scope a bit better with the rest o=
f the RATS world.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; Thanks<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">/guy<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"msipfooter30b3d538" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin:0in;margin=
-bottom:.0001pt;text-align:center">
<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;c=
olor:black">Juniper Business Use Only</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Dave Thaler &lt;dthaler=3D40microsoft.c=
om@dmarc.ietf.org&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 4, 2019 3:56 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Guy Fedorkow &lt;gfedorkow@juniper.net&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> rats@ietf.org; Thomas Hardjono &lt;hardjono@mit.edu&gt;; Smith, =
Ned &lt;ned.smith@intel.com&gt;; Henk Birkholz &lt;henk.birkholz@sit.fraunh=
ofer.de&gt;; Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay &lt;jmfmckay@gmail.com&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: RIV and the RATS architecture<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Hi Guy, sorry for the =
delay, I was at a conference (Open Source Summit, Confidential Computing Co=
nsortium, and Linux Security Summit were all co-located) all last week and =
traveling there/back.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"color:#1F4=
97D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Responses inline below=
&#8230;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"color:#1F4=
97D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><b>From:</b> RATS &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Guy Fedorkow<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, October 31, 2019 12:27 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Dave Thaler &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dthaler=3D40microsoft.com@dmar=
c.ietf.org">dthaler=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org">rats@ietf.org</a>; Thomas Hardj=
ono &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hardjono@mit.edu">hardjono@mit.edu</a>&gt;; Smith=
, Ned &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com">ned.smith@intel.com</a>&gt=
;; Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de">hen=
k.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;;
 Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jmfmckay@gmail.com">jmfmcka=
y@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Rats] RIV and the RATS architecture<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">Hi Dave,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp; Thanks for your do=
c <a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/nam06.safelinks.protection.=
outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Ftools.ietf.org*2Fhtml*2Fdraft-thaler-rats-=
architecture-00&amp;data=3D02*7C01*7Cdthaler*40microsoft.com*7C520adf8cc884=
437d639508d75e385c4d*7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47*7C1*7C0*7C637081468=
537546960&amp;sdata=3D20zFPTGCbLybPlTaNB2E6uSb3re0G2bYPGC8F9TNXis*3D&amp;re=
served=3D0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!8WoA6RjC81c!Rpme4JKWETjOw_zisYJRdztjgIgNvT=
A_HZoPymMV_ggWZP8BkjOlbCzLuKc18WRBFIY$">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thaler-rats-architecture-00</a>.<o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp; Do you have a view=
 as to how the TPM-based attestation described in RIV would fit with the pr=
oposed categorization?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><a href=3D"https://urldef=
ense.com/v3/__https:/nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps*3A=
*2F*2Ftools.ietf.org*2Fhtml*2Fdraft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestatio=
n-00&amp;data=3D02*7C01*7Cdthaler*40microsoft.com*7C520adf8cc884437d639508d=
75e385c4d*7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47*7C1*7C0*7C637081468537556953&a=
mp;sdata=3DVTByXHpjuEMkojKjjly0i0BbnvujhB4fIpQaqiPFDKA*3D&amp;reserved=3D0_=
_;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!8WoA6RjC81c!Rpme4JKWETjOw_zisYJRdztjgIgNvTA_HZoPymMV_=
ggWZP8BkjOlbCzLuKc1fEcZrRQ$">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fedorkow-rat=
s-network-device-attestation-00</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"color:#1F4=
97D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Great question. From m=
y reading of draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-00, it&#8217;s =
a background check model, as section 2.3 of your doc explains:<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Consolas=
;color:black;background:white">&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; 3.&nbsp; A Relying Party, w=
hich has access to the Verifier to request<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Consolas=
;color:black;background:white">&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; att=
estation and to act on results.</span><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">That sentence above is=
 by definition the background check model.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">That is, the Attester =
talks to the Relying Party, the Relying Party then requests a background ch=
eck by consulting a Verifier,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">and will accept whatev=
er answer the Verifier decides.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">There are ways where y=
ou could use the passport model for network device attestation,<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">but your document only=
 covers the background check model.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp; It doesn&#8217;t s=
eem to be a passport, since the attester only provides raw evidence, not a =
pre-approved passport<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Agreed, from my readin=
g of your document.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp; It doesn&#8217;t s=
eem to be a background check, as it&#8217;s the verifier that collects and =
analyzes the evidence.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">If I understand your p=
oint here, you&#8217;re saying that the verifier talks directly to the atte=
ster (e.g., by querying the yang module), without going back through the re=
lying party, and that that seemed to you to
 be different from a classic &#8220;background check&#8221; diagram.&nbsp; =
Did I get your point correctly?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">If so, then I see it a=
s a variation of the background check model, as opposed to a separate model=
 per se.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp; I&#8217;m not sure=
 it matters to RIV, as we haven&#8217;t drawn much distinction between the =
relying party and the verifier&#8230;&nbsp; As you say, if they&#8217;re on=
 the same machine, the distinction is almost moot.&nbsp;<span style=3D"colo=
r:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Agree.<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">And if they&#8217;re not,=
 I think the communication is out of scope for RIV (if not for RATS).<span =
style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">I disagree that it&#82=
17;s out of scope for RATS.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">I have no opinion on w=
hether it&#8217;s out of scope for RIV, since I still have some confusion o=
n the intended scope of RIV.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">I note that your docum=
ent constrains its scope (in section 1.5) to only TPM-based embedded device=
s, and not other<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">types of devices.&nbsp=
;&nbsp; I couldn&#8217;t tell if the scope of RIV and the scope of the draf=
t (which does not have RIV in the name, or in<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">section 1.5) are simil=
ar or one is a subset of the other.&nbsp;&nbsp; Indeed, the title of the do=
cument is far wider than just TPM-based<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">embedded devices, so i=
n that sense the title doesn&#8217;t match the scoping in section 1.5. &nbs=
p;&nbsp;Just explaining why there&#8217;s not<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">enough information for=
 me to have an opinion on verifier-relying party communication in RIV.<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">There can be other net=
work attestation solutions that look quite different from the flow in your =
draft<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">(and I have no skin in=
 this game, so don&#8217;t have a bias towards any solution in particular).=
&nbsp;&nbsp; For example,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">some other solution mi=
ght involve a RADIUS server being a Verifier, so the verifier &#8211; relyi=
ng party communication might<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">be RADIUS in that exam=
ple.&nbsp;&nbsp; There&#8217;s many ways to construct solutions, and so I i=
magine there&#8217;s probably multiple<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">solutions already out =
there, since the NEA problem is not new even in the IETF (<a href=3D"https:=
//urldefense.com/v3/__https:/tools.ietf.org/wg/nea/__;!8WoA6RjC81c!Rpme4JKW=
ETjOw_zisYJRdztjgIgNvTA_HZoPymMV_ggWZP8BkjOlbCzLuKc1mSGm10I$">https://tools=
.ietf.org/wg/nea/</a>
 has<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">pointers to RFCs for a=
nyone reading this who&#8217;s not already aware of it).<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp; But it would be go=
od ensure the architecture and the applications of it actually do fit toget=
her&#8230;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Absolutely.<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Dave<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp;&nbsp;Thanks<o:p></=
o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">/guy<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"msipfooter30b3d538" align=3D"center" style=3D"mso-margin-top-al=
t:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.00=
01pt;text-align:center">
<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;c=
olor:black">Juniper Business Use Only</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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From: "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" <ncamwing@cisco.com>
To: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Moving forward with Architecture work
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From: Giridhar Mandyam <mandyam@qti.qualcomm.com>
To: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
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From: Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>
To: Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Thomas Hardjono <hardjono@mit.edu>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay <jmfmckay@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: Comments on draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-00
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Subject: [Rats] Comments on draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-00
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[updated subject line]

Here's some comments on draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-00, =
in addition to the one in the thread copied at bottom...

Section 1.2:

=D8  o  Platform Identity, the mechanism providing trusted identity, can

=D8  reassure network managers that the specific devices they ordered

=D8  from authorized manufacturers for attachment to their network are

=D8  those that were installed, and that they continue to be present in

=D8  their network.  As part of the mechanism for Platform Identity,

=D8  cryptographic proof of the identity of the manufacturer is also

=D8  provided.

Above is somewhat ambiguous.   When it says "the specific devices", is it t=
alking about device instances
(in the exact serial number or key pair sense), or the same models?   I.e.,=
 I ordered 3 widgets, and I got
three widgets (and not three oranges or something else).  Is this talking a=
bout verifying that they're
widgets, or that they're the precise 3 widgets you're expecting?   I suspec=
t you mean the latter but it's not
clear.   Assuming you do mean instances, then knowing that they're the spec=
ific devices that were ordered
presumes some mechanism for learning the public keys of the devices ordered=
, prior to their arrival, and
this should be called out.

Section 2.1 discusses the model where the verifier communicates directly wi=
th the attested device.
However, it doesn't point out the problems with that model, which is that t=
he attested device will see this
as unsolicited inbound communication, and hence and sort of host firewall-l=
ike behavior will prevent the
interrogation from succeeding.    Section 1.5 already constrains the scope =
to a very narrow scenario, but
it's not sufficient, it has to be constrained further to the scenario where=
 unsolicited inbound communication
is permitted.   Allowing unsolicited inbound communication opens up other p=
otential security and privacy
risks that should be discussed in sections 4 and 5.

Given the narrowness of the applicability, and the security and privacy ris=
ks inherent in the model where
the verifier communicates directly with the attested device, it's not obvio=
us why this is a good direction
to pursue, especially if there might be alternatives that are both more bro=
adly applicable, and more secure/private.

I have no objection if there are good reasons, but the draft doesn't yet pr=
ovide sufficient justification
in my view.

Thanks,
Dave

From: Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 6, 2019 12:57 PM
To: Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>
Cc: rats@ietf.org; Thomas Hardjono <hardjono@mit.edu>; Smith, Ned <ned.smit=
h@intel.com>; Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>; Jessica Fitz=
gerald-McKay <jmfmckay@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: RIV and the RATS architecture

Hi Dave,
  Ok, I suppose the model where the verifier communicates directly with the=
 attested device is a kind of sub-contracted full-service background check.=
  That's ok with me, as long as no one interprets the diagram as meaning th=
at the relying party must somehow insert itself into the exchange between V=
erifier and Attester.

  And I see what you mean about lining up the scope of RIV.  The draft has =
gone through a number of changes as we've tried to disentangle it from TCG =
tribal knowledge.
  I think the scope is set by a couple factors.
  The doc as written is clearly limited to TPM-based systems.  That's certa=
inly not the only way to manage a root of trust, but it's the one that's av=
ailable on a lot of gear already, and it's fairly stable and tightly spec'd=
.  From the TCG side, I'd expect there would be interest in extending the i=
deas to other TCG roots of trust such as DICE, but it seems that should be =
driven out of TCG.

  The limitation to Network Equipment is entirely a matter of expedience.  =
I think the approach would work easily in other embedded applications, alth=
ough YANG is likely a fixation only relevant to networking guys.  Other dom=
ains would presumably need other domain-specific protocols.

  I'll connect with Jessica to see if we can figure out how to align the na=
me and scope a bit better with the rest of the RATS world.

  Thanks
/guy




Juniper Business Use Only
From: Dave Thaler <dthaler=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org<mailto:dthaler=
=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>>
Sent: Monday, November 4, 2019 3:56 PM
To: Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net<mailto:gfedorkow@juniper.net>>
Cc: rats@ietf.org<mailto:rats@ietf.org>; Thomas Hardjono <hardjono@mit.edu<=
mailto:hardjono@mit.edu>>; Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com<mailto:ned.smith=
@intel.com>>; Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de<mailto:henk.bi=
rkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>; Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay <jmfmckay@gmail.com<ma=
ilto:jmfmckay@gmail.com>>
Subject: RE: RIV and the RATS architecture

Hi Guy, sorry for the delay, I was at a conference (Open Source Summit, Con=
fidential Computing Consortium, and Linux Security Summit were all co-locat=
ed) all last week and traveling there/back.

Responses inline below...

From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf =
Of Guy Fedorkow
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2019 12:27 PM
To: Dave Thaler <dthaler=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org<mailto:dthaler=3D=
40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>>
Cc: rats@ietf.org<mailto:rats@ietf.org>; Thomas Hardjono <hardjono@mit.edu<=
mailto:hardjono@mit.edu>>; Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com<mailto:ned.smith=
@intel.com>>; Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de<mailto:henk.bi=
rkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>; Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay <jmfmckay@gmail.com<ma=
ilto:jmfmckay@gmail.com>>
Subject: [Rats] RIV and the RATS architecture

Hi Dave,
  Thanks for your doc https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thaler-rats-archite=
cture-00<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%=
2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2Fnam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com=
%2F%3Furl%3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Ftools.ietf.org*2Fhtml*2Fdraft-thaler-rats-archite=
cture-00%26data%3D02*7C01*7Cdthaler*40microsoft.com*7C520adf8cc884437d63950=
8d75e385c4d*7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47*7C1*7C0*7C637081468537546960=
%26sdata%3D20zFPTGCbLybPlTaNB2E6uSb3re0G2bYPGC8F9TNXis*3D%26reserved%3D0__%=
3BJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!8WoA6RjC81c!Rpme4JKWETjOw_zisYJRdztjgIgNvTA_HZoPymMV_=
ggWZP8BkjOlbCzLuKc18WRBFIY%24&data=3D02%7C01%7Cdthaler%40microsoft.com%7Cd1=
57a635c6434a9457f808d762fbe83e%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7=
C637086706397977838&sdata=3DleCc05tvqV24FnTScTe9zsTy1O5qTAqBpZ1m2Pc32%2FM%3=
D&reserved=3D0>.
  Do you have a view as to how the TPM-based attestation described in RIV w=
ould fit with the proposed categorization?
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-=
00<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Furld=
efense.com%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2Fnam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3F=
url%3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Ftools.ietf.org*2Fhtml*2Fdraft-fedorkow-rats-network-dev=
ice-attestation-00%26data%3D02*7C01*7Cdthaler*40microsoft.com*7C520adf8cc88=
4437d639508d75e385c4d*7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47*7C1*7C0*7C63708146=
8537556953%26sdata%3DVTByXHpjuEMkojKjjly0i0BbnvujhB4fIpQaqiPFDKA*3D%26reser=
ved%3D0__%3BJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!8WoA6RjC81c!Rpme4JKWETjOw_zisYJRdztjgIgNvTA=
_HZoPymMV_ggWZP8BkjOlbCzLuKc1fEcZrRQ%24&data=3D02%7C01%7Cdthaler%40microsof=
t.com%7Cd157a635c6434a9457f808d762fbe83e%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47=
%7C1%7C0%7C637086706397977838&sdata=3DLJnohgCVQ65zsIffdcRm9W2Ie0Ny76wObKSm1=
0MWBLU%3D&reserved=3D0>

Great question. From my reading of draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attes=
tation-00, it's a background check model, as section 2.3 of your doc explai=
ns:
>   3.  A Relying Party, which has access to the Verifier to request
>       attestation and to act on results.

That sentence above is by definition the background check model.
That is, the Attester talks to the Relying Party, the Relying Party then re=
quests a background check by consulting a Verifier,
and will accept whatever answer the Verifier decides.
There are ways where you could use the passport model for network device at=
testation,
but your document only covers the background check model.

  It doesn't seem to be a passport, since the attester only provides raw ev=
idence, not a pre-approved passport

Agreed, from my reading of your document.

  It doesn't seem to be a background check, as it's the verifier that colle=
cts and analyzes the evidence.

If I understand your point here, you're saying that the verifier talks dire=
ctly to the attester (e.g., by querying the yang module), without going bac=
k through the relying party, and that that seemed to you to be different fr=
om a classic "background check" diagram.  Did I get your point correctly?

If so, then I see it as a variation of the background check model, as oppos=
ed to a separate model per se.

  I'm not sure it matters to RIV, as we haven't drawn much distinction betw=
een the relying party and the verifier...  As you say, if they're on the sa=
me machine, the distinction is almost moot.

Agree.

And if they're not, I think the communication is out of scope for RIV (if n=
ot for RATS).

I disagree that it's out of scope for RATS.

I have no opinion on whether it's out of scope for RIV, since I still have =
some confusion on the intended scope of RIV.
I note that your document constrains its scope (in section 1.5) to only TPM=
-based embedded devices, and not other
types of devices.   I couldn't tell if the scope of RIV and the scope of th=
e draft (which does not have RIV in the name, or in
section 1.5) are similar or one is a subset of the other.   Indeed, the tit=
le of the document is far wider than just TPM-based
embedded devices, so in that sense the title doesn't match the scoping in s=
ection 1.5.   Just explaining why there's not
enough information for me to have an opinion on verifier-relying party comm=
unication in RIV.

There can be other network attestation solutions that look quite different =
from the flow in your draft
(and I have no skin in this game, so don't have a bias towards any solution=
 in particular).   For example,
some other solution might involve a RADIUS server being a Verifier, so the =
verifier - relying party communication might
be RADIUS in that example.   There's many ways to construct solutions, and =
so I imagine there's probably multiple
solutions already out there, since the NEA problem is not new even in the I=
ETF (https://tools..ietf.org/wg/nea/<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.out=
look.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2Ftools.ietf=
.org%2Fwg%2Fnea%2F__%3B!8WoA6RjC81c!Rpme4JKWETjOw_zisYJRdztjgIgNvTA_HZoPymM=
V_ggWZP8BkjOlbCzLuKc1mSGm10I%24&data=3D02%7C01%7Cdthaler%40microsoft.com%7C=
d157a635c6434a9457f808d762fbe83e%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0=
%7C637086706397987832&sdata=3DQ4juJWspmcPCYfXOCnInuX7EKJYNm9RcXRpp%2B3zHrmY=
%3D&reserved=3D0> has
pointers to RFCs for anyone reading this who's not already aware of it).

  But it would be good ensure the architecture and the applications of it a=
ctually do fit together...

Absolutely.

Dave

  Thanks
/guy






Juniper Business Use Only

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<body lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[updated subject line]<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Here&#8217;s some comments on draft-fedorkow-rats-ne=
twork-device-attestation-00, in addition to the one in the thread copied at=
 bottom&#8230;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Section 1.2:<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1">=
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D"><s=
pan style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">=D8<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;">&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]>o&nbsp; Platform Identit=
y, the mechanism providing trusted identity, can<o:p></o:p></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Wi=
ngdings;color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">=D8<span style=3D"fo=
nt:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Courier New&quot;">reassure network managers that the specific device=
s they ordered<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Wi=
ngdings;color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">=D8<span style=3D"fo=
nt:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Courier New&quot;">from authorized manufacturers for attachment to th=
eir network are<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Wi=
ngdings;color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">=D8<span style=3D"fo=
nt:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Courier New&quot;">those that were installed, and that they continue =
to be present in<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Wi=
ngdings;color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">=D8<span style=3D"fo=
nt:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Courier New&quot;">their network.&nbsp; As part of the mechanism for =
Platform Identity,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Wi=
ngdings;color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">=D8<span style=3D"fo=
nt:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Courier New&quot;">cryptographic proof of the identity of the manufac=
turer is also<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo1"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Wi=
ngdings;color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">=D8<span style=3D"fo=
nt:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Courier New&quot;">provided.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Above is somewhat ambiguous.&nbsp;&nbsp; When it say=
s &#8220;the specific devices&#8221;, is it talking about device instances<=
o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">(in the exact serial number or key pair sense), or t=
he same models?&nbsp;&nbsp; I.e., I ordered 3 widgets, and I got<o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">three widgets (and not three oranges or something el=
se).&nbsp; Is this talking about verifying that they&#8217;re<o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">widgets, or that they&#8217;re the precise 3 widgets=
 you&#8217;re expecting?&nbsp;&nbsp; I suspect you mean the latter but it&#=
8217;s not<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">clear.&nbsp;&nbsp; Assuming you do mean instances, t=
hen knowing that they&#8217;re the specific devices that were ordered<o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">presumes some mechanism for learning the public keys=
 of the devices ordered, prior to their arrival, and<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">this should be called out.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Section 2.1 discusses the model where the verifier c=
ommunicates directly with the attested device.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">However, it doesn&#8217;t point out the problems wit=
h that model, which is that the attested device will see this<o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">as unsolicited inbound communication, and hence and =
sort of host firewall-like behavior will prevent the<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">interrogation from succeeding.&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;Sec=
tion 1.5 already constrains the scope to a very narrow scenario, but<o:p></=
o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">it&#8217;s not sufficient, it has to be constrained =
further to the scenario where unsolicited inbound communication<o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">is permitted.&nbsp;&nbsp; Allowing unsolicited inbou=
nd communication opens up other potential security and privacy<o:p></o:p></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">risks that should be discussed in sections 4 and 5.<=
o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Given the narrowness of the applicability, and the s=
ecurity and privacy risks inherent in the model where<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">the verifier communicates directly with the attested=
 device, it&#8217;s not obvious why this is a good direction<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">to pursue, especially if there might be alternatives=
 that are both more broadly applicable, and more secure/private.<o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I have no objection if there are good reasons, but t=
he draft doesn&#8217;t yet provide sufficient justification<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">in my view.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dave<span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Guy Fedorkow &lt;gfedorkow=3D40juniper.=
net@dmarc.ietf.org&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 6, 2019 12:57 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Dave Thaler &lt;dthaler@microsoft.com&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> rats@ietf.org; Thomas Hardjono &lt;hardjono@mit.edu&gt;; Smith, =
Ned &lt;ned.smith@intel.com&gt;; Henk Birkholz &lt;henk.birkholz@sit.fraunh=
ofer.de&gt;; Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay &lt;jmfmckay@gmail.com&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: RIV and the RATS architecture<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Dave,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; Ok, I suppose the model where the verifier co=
mmunicates directly with the attested device is a kind of sub-contracted fu=
ll-service background check.&nbsp; That&#8217;s ok with me, as long as no o=
ne interprets the diagram as meaning that the relying
 party must somehow insert itself into the exchange between Verifier and At=
tester.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; And I see what you mean about lining up the s=
cope of RIV.&nbsp; The draft has gone through a number of changes as we&#82=
17;ve tried to disentangle it from TCG tribal knowledge.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; I think the scope is set by a couple factors.=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; The doc as written is clearly limited to TPM-=
based systems.&nbsp; That&#8217;s certainly not the only way to manage a ro=
ot of trust, but it&#8217;s the one that&#8217;s available on a lot of gear=
 already, and it&#8217;s fairly stable and tightly spec&#8217;d.&nbsp; From=
 the
 TCG side, I&#8217;d expect there would be interest in extending the ideas =
to other TCG roots of trust such as DICE, but it seems that should be drive=
n out of TCG.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; The limitation to Network Equipment is entire=
ly a matter of expedience.&nbsp; I think the approach would work easily in =
other embedded applications, although YANG is likely a fixation only releva=
nt to networking guys. &nbsp;Other domains would
 presumably need other domain-specific protocols.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; I&#8217;ll connect with Jessica to see if we =
can figure out how to align the name and scope a bit better with the rest o=
f the RATS world.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; Thanks<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">/guy<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"msipfooter30b3d538" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin:0in;margin=
-bottom:.0001pt;text-align:center">
<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;c=
olor:black">Juniper Business Use Only</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Dave Thaler &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dthal=
er=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org">dthaler=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 4, 2019 3:56 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Guy Fedorkow &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gfedorkow@juniper.net">gfedor=
kow@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org">rats@ietf.org</a>; Thomas Hardj=
ono &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hardjono@mit.edu">hardjono@mit.edu</a>&gt;; Smith=
, Ned &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com">ned.smith@intel.com</a>&gt=
;; Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de">hen=
k.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;;
 Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jmfmckay@gmail.com">jmfmcka=
y@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: RIV and the RATS architecture<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Hi Guy, sorry for the =
delay, I was at a conference (Open Source Summit, Confidential Computing Co=
nsortium, and Linux Security Summit were all co-located) all last week and =
traveling there/back.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"color:#1F4=
97D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Responses inline below=
&#8230;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"color:#1F4=
97D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><b>From:</b> RATS &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Guy Fedorkow<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, October 31, 2019 12:27 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Dave Thaler &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dthaler=3D40microsoft.com@dmar=
c.ietf.org">dthaler=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org">rats@ietf.org</a>; Thomas Hardj=
ono &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hardjono@mit.edu">hardjono@mit.edu</a>&gt;; Smith=
, Ned &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com">ned.smith@intel.com</a>&gt=
;; Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de">hen=
k.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;;
 Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jmfmckay@gmail.com">jmfmcka=
y@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Rats] RIV and the RATS architecture<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">Hi Dave,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp; Thanks for your do=
c <a href=3D"https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A=
%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2Fnam06.safelinks.protection.outlook=
.com%2F%3Furl%3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Ftools.ietf.org*2Fhtml*2Fdraft-thaler-rats-arc=
hitecture-00%26data%3D02*7C01*7Cdthaler*40microsoft.com*7C520adf8cc884437d6=
39508d75e385c4d*7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47*7C1*7C0*7C63708146853754=
6960%26sdata%3D20zFPTGCbLybPlTaNB2E6uSb3re0G2bYPGC8F9TNXis*3D%26reserved%3D=
0__%3BJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!8WoA6RjC81c!Rpme4JKWETjOw_zisYJRdztjgIgNvTA_HZoPy=
mMV_ggWZP8BkjOlbCzLuKc18WRBFIY%24&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Cdthaler%40microsoft.=
com%7Cd157a635c6434a9457f808d762fbe83e%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7=
C1%7C0%7C637086706397977838&amp;sdata=3DleCc05tvqV24FnTScTe9zsTy1O5qTAqBpZ1=
m2Pc32%2FM%3D&amp;reserved=3D0">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thaler-rats-architecture-00</a>.<o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp; Do you have a view=
 as to how the TPM-based attestation described in RIV would fit with the pr=
oposed categorization?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><a href=3D"https://nam06.=
safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2=
F__https%3A%2Fnam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dhttps*3A*2F=
*2Ftools.ietf.org*2Fhtml*2Fdraft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-0=
0%26data%3D02*7C01*7Cdthaler*40microsoft.com*7C520adf8cc884437d639508d75e38=
5c4d*7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47*7C1*7C0*7C637081468537556953%26sdat=
a%3DVTByXHpjuEMkojKjjly0i0BbnvujhB4fIpQaqiPFDKA*3D%26reserved%3D0__%3BJSUlJ=
SUlJSUlJSUlJSU!8WoA6RjC81c!Rpme4JKWETjOw_zisYJRdztjgIgNvTA_HZoPymMV_ggWZP8B=
kjOlbCzLuKc1fEcZrRQ%24&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Cdthaler%40microsoft.com%7Cd157a=
635c6434a9457f808d762fbe83e%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C63=
7086706397977838&amp;sdata=3DLJnohgCVQ65zsIffdcRm9W2Ie0Ny76wObKSm10MWBLU%3D=
&amp;reserved=3D0">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fedorkow-rats-network-=
device-attestation-00</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"color:#1F4=
97D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Great question. From m=
y reading of draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-00, it&#8217;s =
a background check model, as section 2.3 of your doc explains:<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Consolas=
;color:black;background:white">&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; 3.&nbsp; A Relying Party, w=
hich has access to the Verifier to request<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Consolas=
;color:black;background:white">&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; att=
estation and to act on results.</span><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">That sentence above is=
 by definition the background check model.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">That is, the Attester =
talks to the Relying Party, the Relying Party then requests a background ch=
eck by consulting a Verifier,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">and will accept whatev=
er answer the Verifier decides.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">There are ways where y=
ou could use the passport model for network device attestation,<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">but your document only=
 covers the background check model.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp; It doesn&#8217;t s=
eem to be a passport, since the attester only provides raw evidence, not a =
pre-approved passport<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Agreed, from my readin=
g of your document.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp; It doesn&#8217;t s=
eem to be a background check, as it&#8217;s the verifier that collects and =
analyzes the evidence.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">If I understand your p=
oint here, you&#8217;re saying that the verifier talks directly to the atte=
ster (e.g., by querying the yang module), without going back through the re=
lying party, and that that seemed to you to
 be different from a classic &#8220;background check&#8221; diagram.&nbsp; =
Did I get your point correctly?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">If so, then I see it a=
s a variation of the background check model, as opposed to a separate model=
 per se.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp; I&#8217;m not sure=
 it matters to RIV, as we haven&#8217;t drawn much distinction between the =
relying party and the verifier&#8230;&nbsp; As you say, if they&#8217;re on=
 the same machine, the distinction is almost moot.&nbsp;<span style=3D"colo=
r:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Agree.<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">And if they&#8217;re not,=
 I think the communication is out of scope for RIV (if not for RATS).<span =
style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">I disagree that it&#82=
17;s out of scope for RATS.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">I have no opinion on w=
hether it&#8217;s out of scope for RIV, since I still have some confusion o=
n the intended scope of RIV.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">I note that your docum=
ent constrains its scope (in section 1.5) to only TPM-based embedded device=
s, and not other<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">types of devices.&nbsp=
;&nbsp; I couldn&#8217;t tell if the scope of RIV and the scope of the draf=
t (which does not have RIV in the name, or in<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">section 1.5) are simil=
ar or one is a subset of the other.&nbsp;&nbsp; Indeed, the title of the do=
cument is far wider than just TPM-based<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">embedded devices, so i=
n that sense the title doesn&#8217;t match the scoping in section 1.5. &nbs=
p;&nbsp;Just explaining why there&#8217;s not<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">enough information for=
 me to have an opinion on verifier-relying party communication in RIV.<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">There can be other net=
work attestation solutions that look quite different from the flow in your =
draft<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">(and I have no skin in=
 this game, so don&#8217;t have a bias towards any solution in particular).=
&nbsp;&nbsp; For example,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">some other solution mi=
ght involve a RADIUS server being a Verifier, so the verifier &#8211; relyi=
ng party communication might<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">be RADIUS in that exam=
ple.&nbsp;&nbsp; There&#8217;s many ways to construct solutions, and so I i=
magine there&#8217;s probably multiple<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">solutions already out =
there, since the NEA problem is not new even in the IETF (<a href=3D"https:=
//nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Furldefense.co=
m%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fwg%2Fnea%2F__%3B!8WoA6RjC81c!Rpme4JK=
WETjOw_zisYJRdztjgIgNvTA_HZoPymMV_ggWZP8BkjOlbCzLuKc1mSGm10I%24&amp;data=3D=
02%7C01%7Cdthaler%40microsoft.com%7Cd157a635c6434a9457f808d762fbe83e%7C72f9=
88bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637086706397987832&amp;sdata=3DQ4juJ=
WspmcPCYfXOCnInuX7EKJYNm9RcXRpp%2B3zHrmY%3D&amp;reserved=3D0">https://tools=
..ietf.org/wg/nea/</a>
 has<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">pointers to RFCs for a=
nyone reading this who&#8217;s not already aware of it).<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp; But it would be go=
od ensure the architecture and the applications of it actually do fit toget=
her&#8230;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Absolutely.<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Dave<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp;&nbsp;Thanks<o:p></=
o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">/guy<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"msipfooter30b3d538" align=3D"center" style=3D"mso-margin-top-al=
t:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.00=
01pt;text-align:center">
<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;c=
olor:black">Juniper Business Use Only</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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From: Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>
To: Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Thomas Hardjono <hardjono@mit.edu>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay <jmfmckay@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: Comments on draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-00
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Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 01:18:22 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/uojx5VSp0MzuM5s8oCjrdi1wAGM>
Subject: Re: [Rats] Comments on draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-00
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And a couple of additional comments on -01 (the subject had -00 in it and p=
robably shouldn't have)


=B7        Since section 1 scopes the definition of RIV to certain types of=
 network equipment, I find the term RIV to be

overly broad, since it has a name that implies it is remote attestation for=
 all purposes, which it's apparently not.

I would recommend that, like the title of the doc, the term RIV be narrowed=
 significantly by adding words

to indicate its narrow scope.



=B7        Section 4 says:

In light of these
   requirements for protecting the privacy of users of the network, the
   Network Equipment must identify itself, and its boot configuration
   and measured device state (for example, PCR values), to the
   Equipment's Administrator, so there's no uncertainty as to what
   function each device and configuration is configured to carry out .



RIV specifically addresses the collection information from enterprise
   network devices by an enterprise network.

               However, those two sentences appear to be contradictory.   T=
he first one talks about
               the "Equipment's Administrator" whereas the second one talks=
 about "an enterprise network".
               Unless you further narrow the scope in section 1.5 to only c=
ases where those are the same,
               you should not assume that the "Equipment's Administrator" a=
nd the "enterprise network"
               are the same organization.


=B7        Another point on the same text in section 4 is that it talks abo=
ut "boot" configuration and then says
"there's no uncertainty as to what function each device and configuration i=
s configured to carry out".

In order to have "no uncertainty" you either have to remove the word "boot"=
, so that it's not just

"boot" configuration, but configuration in general, or else constrain your =
definition of "embedded"

to cases where all configuration and functionality is fixed at boot time.  =
That's common in embedded,

but not universal, depending on your definition of embedded.  Currently you=
 only define "embedded"

as "where the device manufacturer ships the software image for the device"

but that by itself doesn't mean all functionality is fixed at boot time.  E=
.g., the configuration might be

separate from the software image, and might even be obtained after boot, un=
less you scope down your

definition of "embedded".



=B7        Section 5 says

"TPM practices require that these keys be different, as a way of
   ensuring that a general-purpose signing key cannot be used to spoof
   an attestation quote."

and

"To prevent spoofing, the quote generated inside the TPM must by
   signed by a key that's different from the DevID, called an
   Attestation Key (AK)."



The claim that a split is necessary to prevent spoofing is non-obvious (I k=
now I didn't follow it).  I would recommend either

a)      Delete the text about spoofing and just say that's how TPM works, o=
r

b)      Provide an explanation, or

c)      Reference a publically accessible document that has the explanation=
.

Dave

From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Dave Thaler
Sent: Wednesday, November 6, 2019 4:26 PM
To: Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: rats@ietf.org; Thomas Hardjono <hardjono@mit.edu>; Smith, Ned <ned.smit=
h@intel.com>; Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>; Jessica Fitz=
gerald-McKay <jmfmckay@gmail.com>
Subject: [Rats] Comments on draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-=
00

[updated subject line]

Here's some comments on draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-00, =
in addition to the one in the thread copied at bottom...

Section 1.2:

=D8  o  Platform Identity, the mechanism providing trusted identity, can

=D8  reassure network managers that the specific devices they ordered

=D8  from authorized manufacturers for attachment to their network are

=D8  those that were installed, and that they continue to be present in

=D8  their network.  As part of the mechanism for Platform Identity,

=D8  cryptographic proof of the identity of the manufacturer is also

=D8  provided.

Above is somewhat ambiguous.   When it says "the specific devices", is it t=
alking about device instances
(in the exact serial number or key pair sense), or the same models?   I.e.,=
 I ordered 3 widgets, and I got
three widgets (and not three oranges or something else).  Is this talking a=
bout verifying that they're
widgets, or that they're the precise 3 widgets you're expecting?   I suspec=
t you mean the latter but it's not
clear.   Assuming you do mean instances, then knowing that they're the spec=
ific devices that were ordered
presumes some mechanism for learning the public keys of the devices ordered=
, prior to their arrival, and
this should be called out.

Section 2.1 discusses the model where the verifier communicates directly wi=
th the attested device.
However, it doesn't point out the problems with that model, which is that t=
he attested device will see this
as unsolicited inbound communication, and hence and sort of host firewall-l=
ike behavior will prevent the
interrogation from succeeding.    Section 1.5 already constrains the scope =
to a very narrow scenario, but
it's not sufficient, it has to be constrained further to the scenario where=
 unsolicited inbound communication
is permitted.   Allowing unsolicited inbound communication opens up other p=
otential security and privacy
risks that should be discussed in sections 4 and 5.

Given the narrowness of the applicability, and the security and privacy ris=
ks inherent in the model where
the verifier communicates directly with the attested device, it's not obvio=
us why this is a good direction
to pursue, especially if there might be alternatives that are both more bro=
adly applicable, and more secure/private.

I have no objection if there are good reasons, but the draft doesn't yet pr=
ovide sufficient justification
in my view.

Thanks,
Dave

From: Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org<mailto:gfedork=
ow=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>>
Sent: Wednesday, November 6, 2019 12:57 PM
To: Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com<mailto:dthaler@microsoft.com>>
Cc: rats@ietf.org<mailto:rats@ietf.org>; Thomas Hardjono <hardjono@mit.edu<=
mailto:hardjono@mit.edu>>; Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com<mailto:ned.smith=
@intel.com>>; Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de<mailto:henk.bi=
rkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>; Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay <jmfmckay@gmail.com<ma=
ilto:jmfmckay@gmail.com>>
Subject: RE: RIV and the RATS architecture

Hi Dave,
  Ok, I suppose the model where the verifier communicates directly with the=
 attested device is a kind of sub-contracted full-service background check.=
  That's ok with me, as long as no one interprets the diagram as meaning th=
at the relying party must somehow insert itself into the exchange between V=
erifier and Attester.

  And I see what you mean about lining up the scope of RIV.  The draft has =
gone through a number of changes as we've tried to disentangle it from TCG =
tribal knowledge.
  I think the scope is set by a couple factors.
  The doc as written is clearly limited to TPM-based systems.  That's certa=
inly not the only way to manage a root of trust, but it's the one that's av=
ailable on a lot of gear already, and it's fairly stable and tightly spec'd=
.  From the TCG side, I'd expect there would be interest in extending the i=
deas to other TCG roots of trust such as DICE, but it seems that should be =
driven out of TCG.

  The limitation to Network Equipment is entirely a matter of expedience.  =
I think the approach would work easily in other embedded applications, alth=
ough YANG is likely a fixation only relevant to networking guys.  Other dom=
ains would presumably need other domain-specific protocols.

  I'll connect with Jessica to see if we can figure out how to align the na=
me and scope a bit better with the rest of the RATS world.

  Thanks
/guy




Juniper Business Use Only
From: Dave Thaler <dthaler=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org<mailto:dthaler=
=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>>
Sent: Monday, November 4, 2019 3:56 PM
To: Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net<mailto:gfedorkow@juniper.net>>
Cc: rats@ietf.org<mailto:rats@ietf.org>; Thomas Hardjono <hardjono@mit.edu<=
mailto:hardjono@mit.edu>>; Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com<mailto:ned.smith=
@intel.com>>; Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de<mailto:henk.bi=
rkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>; Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay <jmfmckay@gmail.com<ma=
ilto:jmfmckay@gmail.com>>
Subject: RE: RIV and the RATS architecture

Hi Guy, sorry for the delay, I was at a conference (Open Source Summit, Con=
fidential Computing Consortium, and Linux Security Summit were all co-locat=
ed) all last week and traveling there/back.

Responses inline below...

From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf =
Of Guy Fedorkow
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2019 12:27 PM
To: Dave Thaler <dthaler=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org<mailto:dthaler=3D=
40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>>
Cc: rats@ietf.org<mailto:rats@ietf.org>; Thomas Hardjono <hardjono@mit.edu<=
mailto:hardjono@mit.edu>>; Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com<mailto:ned.smith=
@intel.com>>; Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de<mailto:henk.bi=
rkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>; Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay <jmfmckay@gmail.com<ma=
ilto:jmfmckay@gmail.com>>
Subject: [Rats] RIV and the RATS architecture

Hi Dave,
  Thanks for your doc https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thaler-rats-archite=
cture-00<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%=
2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2Fnam06.safelinks.protection.outlook..co=
m%2F%3Furl%3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Ftools.ietf.org*2Fhtml*2Fdraft-thaler-rats-archit=
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08d75e385c4d*7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47*7C1*7C0*7C63708146853754696=
0%26sdata%3D20zFPTGCbLybPlTaNB2E6uSb3re0G2bYPGC8F9TNXis*3D%26reserved%3D0__=
%3BJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!8WoA6RjC81c!Rpme4JKWETjOw_zisYJRdztjgIgNvTA_HZoPymMV=
_ggWZP8BkjOlbCzLuKc18WRBFIY%24&data=3D02%7C01%7Cdthaler%40microsoft.com%7C1=
bf26678bca14945d3bd08d763191133%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%=
7C637086831671084329&sdata=3DLo3rkbTEksxPZCDIB%2FuCj%2BszeMO4xQuHUxDkOF9DZB=
k%3D&reserved=3D0>.
  Do you have a view as to how the TPM-based attestation described in RIV w=
ould fit with the proposed categorization?
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-=
00<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Furld=
efense.com%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2Fnam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3F=
url%3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Ftools.ietf.org*2Fhtml*2Fdraft-fedorkow-rats-network-dev=
ice-attestation-00%26data%3D02*7C01*7Cdthaler*40microsoft.com*7C520adf8cc88=
4437d639508d75e385c4d*7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47*7C1*7C0*7C63708146=
8537556953%26sdata%3DVTByXHpjuEMkojKjjly0i0BbnvujhB4fIpQaqiPFDKA*3D%26reser=
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_HZoPymMV_ggWZP8BkjOlbCzLuKc1fEcZrRQ%24&data=3D02%7C01%7Cdthaler%40microsof=
t.com%7C1bf26678bca14945d3bd08d763191133%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47=
%7C1%7C0%7C637086831671084329&sdata=3DW95iVCu0BKi3ioryV7ZOngYQnALJEwEgF19Iw=
6sXTHg%3D&reserved=3D0>

Great question. From my reading of draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attes=
tation-00, it's a background check model, as section 2.3 of your doc explai=
ns:
>   3.  A Relying Party, which has access to the Verifier to request
>       attestation and to act on results.

That sentence above is by definition the background check model.
That is, the Attester talks to the Relying Party, the Relying Party then re=
quests a background check by consulting a Verifier,
and will accept whatever answer the Verifier decides.
There are ways where you could use the passport model for network device at=
testation,
but your document only covers the background check model.

  It doesn't seem to be a passport, since the attester only provides raw ev=
idence, not a pre-approved passport

Agreed, from my reading of your document.

  It doesn't seem to be a background check, as it's the verifier that colle=
cts and analyzes the evidence.

If I understand your point here, you're saying that the verifier talks dire=
ctly to the attester (e.g., by querying the yang module), without going bac=
k through the relying party, and that that seemed to you to be different fr=
om a classic "background check" diagram.  Did I get your point correctly?

If so, then I see it as a variation of the background check model, as oppos=
ed to a separate model per se.

  I'm not sure it matters to RIV, as we haven't drawn much distinction betw=
een the relying party and the verifier...  As you say, if they're on the sa=
me machine, the distinction is almost moot.

Agree.

And if they're not, I think the communication is out of scope for RIV (if n=
ot for RATS).

I disagree that it's out of scope for RATS.

I have no opinion on whether it's out of scope for RIV, since I still have =
some confusion on the intended scope of RIV.
I note that your document constrains its scope (in section 1.5) to only TPM=
-based embedded devices, and not other
types of devices.   I couldn't tell if the scope of RIV and the scope of th=
e draft (which does not have RIV in the name, or in
section 1.5) are similar or one is a subset of the other.   Indeed, the tit=
le of the document is far wider than just TPM-based
embedded devices, so in that sense the title doesn't match the scoping in s=
ection 1.5.   Just explaining why there's not
enough information for me to have an opinion on verifier-relying party comm=
unication in RIV.

There can be other network attestation solutions that look quite different =
from the flow in your draft
(and I have no skin in this game, so don't have a bias towards any solution=
 in particular).   For example,
some other solution might involve a RADIUS server being a Verifier, so the =
verifier - relying party communication might
be RADIUS in that example.   There's many ways to construct solutions, and =
so I imagine there's probably multiple
solutions already out there, since the NEA problem is not new even in the I=
ETF (https://tools...ietf.org/wg/nea/<https://nam06.safelinks.protection.ou=
tlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2Ftools.iet=
f.org%2Fwg%2Fnea%2F__%3B!8WoA6RjC81c!Rpme4JKWETjOw_zisYJRdztjgIgNvTA_HZoPym=
MV_ggWZP8BkjOlbCzLuKc1mSGm10I%24&data=3D02%7C01%7Cdthaler%40microsoft.com%7=
C1bf26678bca14945d3bd08d763191133%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C=
0%7C637086831671094320&sdata=3DjzwLX8epRspaFxc1XVL61XMieibUdFECiPAD2860Dzg%=
3D&reserved=3D0> has
pointers to RFCs for anyone reading this who's not already aware of it).

  But it would be good ensure the architecture and the applications of it a=
ctually do fit together...

Absolutely.

Dave

  Thanks
/guy






Juniper Business Use Only

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<body lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">And a couple of additional comments on -01 (the subj=
ect had -00 in it and probably shouldn&#8217;t have)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo3"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span style=
=3D"mso-list:Ignore">=B7<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quo=
t;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]>Since section 1 scopes the definition of RIV=
 to certain types of network equipment, I find the term RIV to be<o:p></o:p=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph">overly broad, since it has a name that implie=
s it is remote attestation for all purposes, which it&#8217;s apparently no=
t.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph">I would recommend that, like the title of the=
 doc, the term RIV be narrowed significantly by adding words<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph">to indicate its narrow scope.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo3"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span style=
=3D"mso-list:Ignore">=B7<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quo=
t;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]>Section 4 says:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-left:.5in;text-indent:.25in"><spa=
n style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">In light of these<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; requirements for protecting the privacy of users of the networ=
k, the<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; Network Equipment must identify itself, and its boot configura=
tion<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; and measured device state (for example, PCR values), to the<br=
>
&nbsp;&nbsp; Equipment's Administrator, so there's no uncertainty as to wha=
t<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; function each device and configuration is configured to carry =
out .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-left:.25in;text-indent:.25in"><sp=
an style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-left:.5in;text-indent:.25in"><spa=
n style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">RIV specifically addresses =
the collection information from enterprise<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; network devices by an enterprise network.&nbsp; </span><o:p></=
o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; However, those two sentences appear to be =
contradictory.&nbsp;&nbsp; The first one talks about<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; the &#8220;Equipment&#8217;s Administrator&#8221; whereas the sec=
ond one talks about &#8220;an enterprise network&#8221;.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Unless you further narrow the scope in sec=
tion 1.5 to only cases where those are the same,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; you should not assume that the &#8220;Equi=
pment&#8217;s Administrator&#8221; and the &#8220;enterprise network&#8221;=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; are the same organization.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level=
1 lfo3"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span style=
=3D"mso-list:Ignore">=B7<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quo=
t;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]>Another point on the same text in section 4 =
is that it talks about &#8220;boot&#8221; configuration and then says<br>
&#8220;there&#8217;s no uncertainty as to what function each device and con=
figuration is configured to carry out&#8221;.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph">In order to have &#8220;no uncertainty&#8221;=
 you either have to remove the word &#8220;boot&#8221;, so that it&#8217;s =
not just<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph">&#8220;boot&#8221; configuration, but configu=
ration in general, or else constrain your definition of &#8220;embedded&#82=
21;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph">to cases where all configuration and function=
ality is fixed at boot time.&nbsp; That&#8217;s common in embedded,<o:p></o=
:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph">but not universal, depending on your definiti=
on of embedded.&nbsp; Currently you only define &#8220;embedded&#8221;<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"text-indent:.5in"><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">as &#8220;</span><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:&quot;Courier New&quot;">where the device manufacturer ships the soft=
ware image for the device&#8221;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph">but that by itself doesn&#8217;t mean all fun=
ctionality is fixed at boot time.&nbsp; E.g., the configuration might be<o:=
p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph">separate from the software image, and might e=
ven be obtained after boot, unless you scope down your<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph">definition of &#8220;embedded&#8221;.<o:p></o=
:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-=
list:l0 level1 lfo3">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Symbol"><span style=3D"mso-=
list:Ignore">=B7<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quo=
t;,sans-serif">Section 5 says
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&#8220;TPM practices require that these keys =
be different, as a way of<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; ensuring that a general-purpose signing key cannot be used to =
spoof<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; an attestation quote.&#8221;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">and<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">&#8220;</span><span style=3D"font-fami=
ly:&quot;Courier New&quot;">To prevent spoofing, the quote generated inside=
 the TPM must by<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; signed by a key that's different from the DevID, called an<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; Attestation Key (AK).&#8221; </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoCommentText" style=3D"text-indent:.5in"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoCommentText" style=3D"text-indent:.5in">The claim that a spl=
it is necessary to prevent spoofing is non-obvious (I know I didn&#8217;t f=
ollow it).&nbsp; I would recommend either<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoCommentText" style=3D"margin-left:.75in;text-indent:-.25in;m=
so-list:l2 level1 lfo5">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">a)<span style=3D"font:=
7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]>Delete the text about spoofing and just say that&#8=
217;s how TPM works, or<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoCommentText" style=3D"margin-left:.75in;text-indent:-.25in;m=
so-list:l2 level1 lfo5">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">b)<span style=3D"font:=
7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]>Provide an explanation, or<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoCommentText" style=3D"margin-left:.75in;text-indent:-.25in;m=
so-list:l2 level1 lfo5">
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">c)<span style=3D"font:=
7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span></span><![endif]>Reference a publically accessible document that has=
 the explanation.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoCommentText">Dave<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> RATS &lt;rats-bounces@ietf.org&gt; <b>O=
n Behalf Of </b>
Dave Thaler<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 6, 2019 4:26 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Guy Fedorkow &lt;gfedorkow=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org&gt;<br=
>
<b>Cc:</b> rats@ietf.org; Thomas Hardjono &lt;hardjono@mit.edu&gt;; Smith, =
Ned &lt;ned.smith@intel.com&gt;; Henk Birkholz &lt;henk.birkholz@sit.fraunh=
ofer.de&gt;; Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay &lt;jmfmckay@gmail.com&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Rats] Comments on draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attes=
tation-00<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[updated subject line]<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Here&#8217;s some comments on draft-fedorkow-rats-ne=
twork-device-attestation-00, in addition to the one in the thread copied at=
 bottom&#8230;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Section 1.2:<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2">=
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D"><s=
pan style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">=D8<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;">&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]>o&nbsp; Platform Identit=
y, the mechanism providing trusted identity, can<o:p></o:p></pre>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level=
1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Wi=
ngdings;color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">=D8<span style=3D"fo=
nt:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Courier New&quot;">reassure network managers that the specific device=
s they ordered<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level=
1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Wi=
ngdings;color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">=D8<span style=3D"fo=
nt:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Courier New&quot;">from authorized manufacturers for attachment to th=
eir network are<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level=
1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Wi=
ngdings;color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">=D8<span style=3D"fo=
nt:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Courier New&quot;">those that were installed, and that they continue =
to be present in<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level=
1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Wi=
ngdings;color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">=D8<span style=3D"fo=
nt:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Courier New&quot;">their network.&nbsp; As part of the mechanism for =
Platform Identity,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level=
1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Wi=
ngdings;color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">=D8<span style=3D"fo=
nt:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Courier New&quot;">cryptographic proof of the identity of the manufac=
turer is also<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level=
1 lfo2"><![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Wi=
ngdings;color:#1F497D"><span style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">=D8<span style=3D"fo=
nt:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;
</span></span></span><![endif]><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Courier New&quot;">provided.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Above is somewhat ambiguous.&nbsp;&nbsp; When it say=
s &#8220;the specific devices&#8221;, is it talking about device instances<=
o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">(in the exact serial number or key pair sense), or t=
he same models?&nbsp;&nbsp; I.e., I ordered 3 widgets, and I got<o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">three widgets (and not three oranges or something el=
se).&nbsp; Is this talking about verifying that they&#8217;re<o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">widgets, or that they&#8217;re the precise 3 widgets=
 you&#8217;re expecting?&nbsp;&nbsp; I suspect you mean the latter but it&#=
8217;s not<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">clear.&nbsp;&nbsp; Assuming you do mean instances, t=
hen knowing that they&#8217;re the specific devices that were ordered<o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">presumes some mechanism for learning the public keys=
 of the devices ordered, prior to their arrival, and<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">this should be called out.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Section 2.1 discusses the model where the verifier c=
ommunicates directly with the attested device.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">However, it doesn&#8217;t point out the problems wit=
h that model, which is that the attested device will see this<o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">as unsolicited inbound communication, and hence and =
sort of host firewall-like behavior will prevent the<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">interrogation from succeeding.&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;Sec=
tion 1.5 already constrains the scope to a very narrow scenario, but<o:p></=
o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">it&#8217;s not sufficient, it has to be constrained =
further to the scenario where unsolicited inbound communication<o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">is permitted.&nbsp;&nbsp; Allowing unsolicited inbou=
nd communication opens up other potential security and privacy<o:p></o:p></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">risks that should be discussed in sections 4 and 5.<=
o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Given the narrowness of the applicability, and the s=
ecurity and privacy risks inherent in the model where<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">the verifier communicates directly with the attested=
 device, it&#8217;s not obvious why this is a good direction<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">to pursue, especially if there might be alternatives=
 that are both more broadly applicable, and more secure/private.<o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I have no objection if there are good reasons, but t=
he draft doesn&#8217;t yet provide sufficient justification<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">in my view.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dave<span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Guy Fedorkow &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gfed=
orkow=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org">gfedorkow=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.=
org</a>&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 6, 2019 12:57 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Dave Thaler &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dthaler@microsoft.com">dthaler=
@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org">rats@ietf.org</a>; Thomas Hardj=
ono &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hardjono@mit.edu">hardjono@mit.edu</a>&gt;; Smith=
, Ned &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com">ned.smith@intel.com</a>&gt=
;; Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de">hen=
k.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;;
 Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jmfmckay@gmail.com">jmfmcka=
y@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: RIV and the RATS architecture<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Dave,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; Ok, I suppose the model where the verifier co=
mmunicates directly with the attested device is a kind of sub-contracted fu=
ll-service background check.&nbsp; That&#8217;s ok with me, as long as no o=
ne interprets the diagram as meaning that the relying
 party must somehow insert itself into the exchange between Verifier and At=
tester.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; And I see what you mean about lining up the s=
cope of RIV.&nbsp; The draft has gone through a number of changes as we&#82=
17;ve tried to disentangle it from TCG tribal knowledge.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; I think the scope is set by a couple factors.=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; The doc as written is clearly limited to TPM-=
based systems.&nbsp; That&#8217;s certainly not the only way to manage a ro=
ot of trust, but it&#8217;s the one that&#8217;s available on a lot of gear=
 already, and it&#8217;s fairly stable and tightly spec&#8217;d.&nbsp; From=
 the
 TCG side, I&#8217;d expect there would be interest in extending the ideas =
to other TCG roots of trust such as DICE, but it seems that should be drive=
n out of TCG.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; The limitation to Network Equipment is entire=
ly a matter of expedience.&nbsp; I think the approach would work easily in =
other embedded applications, although YANG is likely a fixation only releva=
nt to networking guys. &nbsp;Other domains would
 presumably need other domain-specific protocols.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; I&#8217;ll connect with Jessica to see if we =
can figure out how to align the name and scope a bit better with the rest o=
f the RATS world.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; Thanks<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">/guy<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"msipfooter30b3d538" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin:0in;margin=
-bottom:.0001pt;text-align:center">
<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;c=
olor:black">Juniper Business Use Only</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Dave Thaler &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dthal=
er=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org">dthaler=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 4, 2019 3:56 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Guy Fedorkow &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gfedorkow@juniper.net">gfedor=
kow@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org">rats@ietf.org</a>; Thomas Hardj=
ono &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hardjono@mit.edu">hardjono@mit.edu</a>&gt;; Smith=
, Ned &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com">ned.smith@intel.com</a>&gt=
;; Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de">hen=
k.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;;
 Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jmfmckay@gmail.com">jmfmcka=
y@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: RIV and the RATS architecture<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Hi Guy, sorry for the =
delay, I was at a conference (Open Source Summit, Confidential Computing Co=
nsortium, and Linux Security Summit were all co-located) all last week and =
traveling there/back.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"color:#1F4=
97D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Responses inline below=
&#8230;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"color:#1F4=
97D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><b>From:</b> RATS &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Guy Fedorkow<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, October 31, 2019 12:27 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Dave Thaler &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dthaler=3D40microsoft.com@dmar=
c.ietf.org">dthaler=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org">rats@ietf.org</a>; Thomas Hardj=
ono &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hardjono@mit.edu">hardjono@mit.edu</a>&gt;; Smith=
, Ned &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com">ned.smith@intel.com</a>&gt=
;; Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de">hen=
k.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;;
 Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jmfmckay@gmail.com">jmfmcka=
y@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Rats] RIV and the RATS architecture<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">Hi Dave,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp; Thanks for your do=
c <a href=3D"https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A=
%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2Fnam06.safelinks.protection.outlook=
..com%2F%3Furl%3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Ftools.ietf.org*2Fhtml*2Fdraft-thaler-rats-ar=
chitecture-00%26data%3D02*7C01*7Cdthaler*40microsoft.com*7C520adf8cc884437d=
639508d75e385c4d*7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47*7C1*7C0*7C6370814685375=
46960%26sdata%3D20zFPTGCbLybPlTaNB2E6uSb3re0G2bYPGC8F9TNXis*3D%26reserved%3=
D0__%3BJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!8WoA6RjC81c!Rpme4JKWETjOw_zisYJRdztjgIgNvTA_HZoP=
ymMV_ggWZP8BkjOlbCzLuKc18WRBFIY%24&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Cdthaler%40microsoft=
.com%7C1bf26678bca14945d3bd08d763191133%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%=
7C1%7C0%7C637086831671084329&amp;sdata=3DLo3rkbTEksxPZCDIB%2FuCj%2BszeMO4xQ=
uHUxDkOF9DZBk%3D&amp;reserved=3D0">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thaler-rats-architecture-00</a>.<o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp; Do you have a view=
 as to how the TPM-based attestation described in RIV would fit with the pr=
oposed categorization?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><a href=3D"https://nam06.=
safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2=
F__https%3A%2Fnam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com%2F%3Furl%3Dhttps*3A*2F=
*2Ftools.ietf.org*2Fhtml*2Fdraft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-0=
0%26data%3D02*7C01*7Cdthaler*40microsoft.com*7C520adf8cc884437d639508d75e38=
5c4d*7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47*7C1*7C0*7C637081468537556953%26sdat=
a%3DVTByXHpjuEMkojKjjly0i0BbnvujhB4fIpQaqiPFDKA*3D%26reserved%3D0__%3BJSUlJ=
SUlJSUlJSUlJSU!8WoA6RjC81c!Rpme4JKWETjOw_zisYJRdztjgIgNvTA_HZoPymMV_ggWZP8B=
kjOlbCzLuKc1fEcZrRQ%24&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Cdthaler%40microsoft.com%7C1bf26=
678bca14945d3bd08d763191133%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C63=
7086831671084329&amp;sdata=3DW95iVCu0BKi3ioryV7ZOngYQnALJEwEgF19Iw6sXTHg%3D=
&amp;reserved=3D0">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fedorkow-rats-network-=
device-attestation-00</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"color:#1F4=
97D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Great question. From m=
y reading of draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-00, it&#8217;s =
a background check model, as section 2.3 of your doc explains:<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Consolas=
;color:black;background:white">&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; 3.&nbsp; A Relying Party, w=
hich has access to the Verifier to request<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Consolas=
;color:black;background:white">&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; att=
estation and to act on results.</span><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">That sentence above is=
 by definition the background check model.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">That is, the Attester =
talks to the Relying Party, the Relying Party then requests a background ch=
eck by consulting a Verifier,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">and will accept whatev=
er answer the Verifier decides.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">There are ways where y=
ou could use the passport model for network device attestation,<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">but your document only=
 covers the background check model.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp; It doesn&#8217;t s=
eem to be a passport, since the attester only provides raw evidence, not a =
pre-approved passport<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Agreed, from my readin=
g of your document.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp; It doesn&#8217;t s=
eem to be a background check, as it&#8217;s the verifier that collects and =
analyzes the evidence.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">If I understand your p=
oint here, you&#8217;re saying that the verifier talks directly to the atte=
ster (e.g., by querying the yang module), without going back through the re=
lying party, and that that seemed to you to
 be different from a classic &#8220;background check&#8221; diagram.&nbsp; =
Did I get your point correctly?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">If so, then I see it a=
s a variation of the background check model, as opposed to a separate model=
 per se.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp; I&#8217;m not sure=
 it matters to RIV, as we haven&#8217;t drawn much distinction between the =
relying party and the verifier&#8230;&nbsp; As you say, if they&#8217;re on=
 the same machine, the distinction is almost moot.&nbsp;<span style=3D"colo=
r:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Agree.<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">And if they&#8217;re not,=
 I think the communication is out of scope for RIV (if not for RATS).<span =
style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">I disagree that it&#82=
17;s out of scope for RATS.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">I have no opinion on w=
hether it&#8217;s out of scope for RIV, since I still have some confusion o=
n the intended scope of RIV.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">I note that your docum=
ent constrains its scope (in section 1.5) to only TPM-based embedded device=
s, and not other<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">types of devices.&nbsp=
;&nbsp; I couldn&#8217;t tell if the scope of RIV and the scope of the draf=
t (which does not have RIV in the name, or in<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">section 1.5) are simil=
ar or one is a subset of the other.&nbsp;&nbsp; Indeed, the title of the do=
cument is far wider than just TPM-based<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">embedded devices, so i=
n that sense the title doesn&#8217;t match the scoping in section 1.5. &nbs=
p;&nbsp;Just explaining why there&#8217;s not<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">enough information for=
 me to have an opinion on verifier-relying party communication in RIV.<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">There can be other net=
work attestation solutions that look quite different from the flow in your =
draft<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">(and I have no skin in=
 this game, so don&#8217;t have a bias towards any solution in particular).=
&nbsp;&nbsp; For example,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">some other solution mi=
ght involve a RADIUS server being a Verifier, so the verifier &#8211; relyi=
ng party communication might<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">be RADIUS in that exam=
ple.&nbsp;&nbsp; There&#8217;s many ways to construct solutions, and so I i=
magine there&#8217;s probably multiple<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">solutions already out =
there, since the NEA problem is not new even in the IETF (<a href=3D"https:=
//nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Furldefense.co=
m%2Fv3%2F__https%3A%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fwg%2Fnea%2F__%3B!8WoA6RjC81c!Rpme4JK=
WETjOw_zisYJRdztjgIgNvTA_HZoPymMV_ggWZP8BkjOlbCzLuKc1mSGm10I%24&amp;data=3D=
02%7C01%7Cdthaler%40microsoft.com%7C1bf26678bca14945d3bd08d763191133%7C72f9=
88bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637086831671094320&amp;sdata=3DjzwLX=
8epRspaFxc1XVL61XMieibUdFECiPAD2860Dzg%3D&amp;reserved=3D0">https://tools..=
.ietf.org/wg/nea/</a>
 has<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">pointers to RFCs for a=
nyone reading this who&#8217;s not already aware of it).<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp; But it would be go=
od ensure the architecture and the applications of it actually do fit toget=
her&#8230;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Absolutely.<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Dave<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp;&nbsp;Thanks<o:p></=
o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">/guy<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></sp=
an></p>
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From: Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net>
To: "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" <ncamwing@cisco.com>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Moving forward with Architecture work
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Nancy,
  I think that's a great way to move forward on this
  Thanks
/guy




Juniper Business Use Only
From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)
Sent: Wednesday, November 6, 2019 5:26 PM
To: rats@ietf.org
Subject: [Rats] Moving forward with Architecture work

RATS Participants,
We continue to have good discussion on architecture draft content but now h=
ave two drafts that will be hard to get consensus on either one.  With each=
 draft providing good benefits, we propose to create a new architecture edi=
torial team to come up with a converged draft that addresses the readabilit=
y concerns, use cases and terminology discussed thus far. Michael Richardso=
n,  Henk, Dave Thaler and Ned have agreed to be this team and will work on =
putting out a converged draft soon.

Discussions are still encouraged to ensure all use case scenarios and workf=
lows are considered; but wanted to ensure we had a targeted team to come up=
 with a single proposed architecture document.

Warm regards,  Nancy and Kathleen


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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Nancy,<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">&nbsp; I think that=
&#8217;s a great way to move forward on this<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">&nbsp; Thanks<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">/guy<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"msipfooter30b3d538" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin:0in;margin=
-bottom:.0001pt;text-align:center">
<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:black">Juniper Business Use Only</span=
><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">From:</span></b>=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"> RATS &lt;rats-bounces@ietf.org&gt;
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 6, 2019 5:26 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> rats@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Rats] Moving forward with Architecture work<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:black">RATS Pa=
rticipants,</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:black">We cont=
inue to have good discussion on&nbsp;architecture draft content but now hav=
e two drafts that will be hard to get consensus on either one.&nbsp; With e=
ach draft providing good benefits, we propose
 to create a new&nbsp;architecture editorial team to come up with a converg=
ed draft that addresses the readability concerns, use cases and terminology=
 discussed thus far.&nbsp;Michael Richardson, &nbsp;Henk, Dave Thaler and N=
ed have agreed to be this team and will work on
 putting out a converged draft soon.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:black">Discussions are still en=
couraged to ensure all use case scenarios and workflows are considered; but=
 wanted to ensure we had a targeted team to come up with a single proposed =
architecture document.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:black">&nbsp;<=
/span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:black">Warm re=
gards,&nbsp; Nancy and&nbsp;Kathleen</span><span style=3D"color:black"><o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_BYAPR05MB4248B4A1DDB3BF856EB8B2A7BA780BYAPR05MB4248namp_--


From nobody Thu Nov  7 09:42:30 2019
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Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2019 09:42:25 -0800
In-Reply-To: <8333BFA8-C457-4710-A7A1-EFF185D304F0@cisco.com>
Cc: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
To: "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" <ncamwing@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Moving forward with Architecture work
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Sounds great!

LL

> On Nov 6, 2019, at 2:26 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) =
<ncamwing@cisco.com> wrote:
>=20
> RATS Participants,
> We continue to have good discussion on architecture draft content but =
now have two drafts that will be hard to get consensus on either one.  =
With each draft providing good benefits, we propose to create a new =
architecture editorial team to come up with a converged draft that =
addresses the readability concerns, use cases and terminology discussed =
thus far. Michael Richardson,  Henk, Dave Thaler and Ned have agreed to =
be this team and will work on putting out a converged draft soon.
> =20
> Discussions are still encouraged to ensure all use case scenarios and =
workflows are considered; but wanted to ensure we had a targeted team to =
come up with a single proposed architecture document.
> =20
> Warm regards,  Nancy and Kathleen
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats>

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Sounds great!<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">LL<br class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Nov 6, 2019, at 2:26 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget =
(ncamwing) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com" =
class=3D"">ncamwing@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">RATS Participants,</span><span =
style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" =
class=3D"">We continue to have good discussion on&nbsp;architecture =
draft content but now have two drafts that will be hard to get consensus =
on either one.&nbsp; With each draft providing good benefits, we propose =
to create a new&nbsp;architecture editorial team to come up with a =
converged draft that addresses the readability concerns, use cases and =
terminology discussed thus far.&nbsp;Michael Richardson, &nbsp;Henk, =
Dave Thaler and Ned have agreed to be this team and will work on putting =
out a converged draft soon.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">Discussions are still encouraged =
to ensure all use case scenarios and workflows are considered; but =
wanted to ensure we had a targeted team to come up with a single =
proposed architecture document.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">Warm regards,&nbsp; Nancy =
and&nbsp;Kathleen</span><span style=3D"" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><span style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
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white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
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text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">RATS mailing list</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
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text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); =
text-decoration: underline; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
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word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=3D"">RATS@ietf.org</a><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
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From nobody Thu Nov  7 12:56:14 2019
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Use case -> architecture document
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Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder, J=C3=BCrgen wrote:
    > I prefer having all relevant interaction models in the architecture.

Do you want exhaustive details, or just enough to say how things differ and
then reference another document?

    > Looking at your architecture draft and "attestation characteristics"
    > (aka attestation principles), then I am not sure I do understand all
    > definitions. For me, 'relevance' seems somewhat unclear. Should such
    > terms be defined in an architecture doccument? Probably yes if they
    > are fundamental for understanding the technology and not covered by
    > generally known security terminology.

I agree: the major contribution of an architecture document is a set of
common terms ... for the components of the architecture.

=2D-
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-




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Subject: Re: [Rats] Use case -> architecture document
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On Thu, Nov 07, 2019 at 03:55:50PM -0500, Michael Richardson wrote:
>=20
> Sch=F6nw=E4lder, J=FCrgen wrote:
>     > I prefer having all relevant interaction models in the architecture=
.
>=20
> Do you want exhaustive details, or just enough to say how things differ a=
nd
> then reference another document?
>

I like to know which interaction models exist and how they differ, I
am fine to leave the gory details that do not impact the architecture
to other documents. (Yes, this is a bit recursive but figuring out
what belongs to an architecture document and what not may require
finding the sweat point where a meaningful cut can be made.)

/js

--=20
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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Subject: Re: [Rats] Moving forward with Architecture work
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Thanks Nancy, Kathleen, & architecture editorial team.  I am looking forward
to the converged result.

 

Eric

 

On Nov 6, 2019, at 2:26 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) <ncamwing@cisco.com
<mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com> > wrote:

 

RATS Participants,

We continue to have good discussion on architecture draft content but now
have two drafts that will be hard to get consensus on either one.  With each
draft providing good benefits, we propose to create a new architecture
editorial team to come up with a converged draft that addresses the
readability concerns, use cases and terminology discussed thus far. Michael
Richardson,  Henk, Dave Thaler and Ned have agreed to be this team and will
work on putting out a converged draft soon.

 

Discussions are still encouraged to ensure all use case scenarios and
workflows are considered; but wanted to ensure we had a targeted team to
come up with a single proposed architecture document.

 

Warm regards,  Nancy and Kathleen

 

_______________________________________________
RATS mailing list
 <mailto:RATS@ietf.org> RATS@ietf.org
 <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats

 


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vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks =
Nancy, Kathleen, &amp; architecture editorial team.&nbsp; I am looking =
forward to the converged result.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Eric<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt'><div><div><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>On Nov 6, 2019, at 2:26 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget =
(ncamwing) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com">ncamwing@cisco.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>RATS Participants,<span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>We continue to have good discussion =
on&nbsp;architecture draft content but now have two drafts that will be =
hard to get consensus on either one.&nbsp; With each draft providing =
good benefits, we propose to create a new&nbsp;architecture editorial =
team to come up with a converged draft that addresses the readability =
concerns, use cases and terminology discussed thus far.&nbsp;Michael =
Richardson, &nbsp;Henk, Dave Thaler and Ned have agreed to be this team =
and will work on putting out a converged draft soon.<span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Discussions are still =
encouraged to ensure all use case scenarios and workflows are =
considered; but wanted to ensure we had a targeted team to come up with =
a single proposed architecture =
document.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Warm regards,&nbsp; Nancy and&nbsp;Kathleen<span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>____________=
___________________________________<br>RATS mailing list<br></span><a =
href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org"><span =
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'>RATS@ietf.org</span></a><span =
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From: "Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)" <frank.xialiang@huawei.com>
To: Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>, "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" <ncamwing@cisco.com>
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Thread-Topic: Moving forward with Architecture work
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Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2019 02:16:35 +0000
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">Yes, I agrees with this way fully.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D">And I am willing to contribute to the architecture related work i=
f possible, like: we have open discussion, conf call or other means.<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;color=
:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot=
;=CE=A2=C8=ED=D1=C5=BA=DA&quot;,sans-serif">=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB<span lang=3D=
"EN-US">:</span></span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;f=
ont-family:&quot;=CE=A2=C8=ED=D1=C5=BA=DA&quot;,sans-serif"> RATS [mailto:r=
ats-bounces@ietf.org]
</span><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;=CE=A2=C8=ED=D1=
=C5=BA=DA&quot;,sans-serif">=B4=FA=B1=ED </span>
</b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;=CE=A2=
=C8=ED=D1=C5=BA=DA&quot;,sans-serif">Guy Fedorkow<br>
</span><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;=CE=A2=C8=ED=D1=
=C5=BA=DA&quot;,sans-serif">=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4<span lang=3D"EN-US">:<=
/span></span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family=
:&quot;=CE=A2=C8=ED=D1=C5=BA=DA&quot;,sans-serif"> 2019</span><span style=
=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;=CE=A2=C8=ED=D1=C5=BA=DA&quot;,sans-=
serif">=C4=EA<span lang=3D"EN-US">11</span>=D4=C2<span lang=3D"EN-US">7</sp=
an>=C8=D5<span lang=3D"EN-US">
 23:27<br>
</span><b>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></b><span lang=3D"=
EN-US"> Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) &lt;ncamwing@cisco.com&gt;<br>
</span><b>=B3=AD=CB=CD<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
> rats@ietf.org<br>
</span><b>=D6=F7=CC=E2<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
> Re: [Rats] Moving forward with Architecture work<o:p></o:p></span></span>=
</p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Nanc=
y,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">&nbs=
p; I think that=A1=AFs a great way to move forward on this<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">&nbs=
p; Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">/guy=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><o:p=
>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><o:p=
>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><o:p=
>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"msipfooter30b3d538" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin:0cm;margin=
-bottom:.0001pt;text-align:center">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:black">Juniper Business=
 Use Only</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">F=
rom:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"> RATS &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 6, 2019 5:26 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org">rats@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Rats] Moving forward with Architecture work<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color=
:black">RATS Participants,</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"=
><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color=
:black">We continue to have good discussion on&nbsp;architecture draft cont=
ent but now have two drafts that will be hard to get consensus on either on=
e.&nbsp; With each draft providing good benefits,
 we propose to create a new&nbsp;architecture editorial team to come up wit=
h a converged draft that addresses the readability concerns, use cases and =
terminology discussed thus far.&nbsp;Michael Richardson, &nbsp;Henk, Dave T=
haler and Ned have agreed to be this team and will
 work on putting out a converged draft soon.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black">Discussio=
ns are still encouraged to ensure all use case scenarios and workflows are =
considered; but wanted to ensure we had a targeted team to come up with a s=
ingle proposed architecture document.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color=
:black">&nbsp;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color=
:black">Warm regards,&nbsp; Nancy and&nbsp;Kathleen</span><span lang=3D"EN-=
US" style=3D"color:black"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><o:p=
>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
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From: Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net>
To: Dave Thaler <dthaler=40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Thomas Hardjono <hardjono@mit.edu>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay <jmfmckay@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: Comments on draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-00
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/6JWxq0a2dyR47dwCT-aR_LJc2xo>
Subject: Re: [Rats] Comments on draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-00
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Hi Dave,
  I'll look at the title and scope again.  Within TCG, we'd left it a bit a=
mbiguous, as there are a number of applications that it would fit without t=
oo much work.  But for RATS, I'm fine with being more careful to delineate =
where the work as written fits.
  We'll think of a more-formal way to say this, but as Jessica said, the ac=
tual scope of the doc is "things with a TPM that use YANG, and don't do sle=
ep/wake cycles".
  I assume this can't be changed now given that the IETF106 deadline has pa=
ssed, but there will be another revision one way or another in which I can =
address your other comments.
  Thanks
/guy






Juniper Business Use Only
From: Dave Thaler <dthaler=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 6, 2019 8:18 PM
To: Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net>
Cc: rats@ietf.org; Thomas Hardjono <hardjono@mit.edu>; Smith, Ned <ned.smit=
h@intel.com>; Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>; Jessica Fitz=
gerald-McKay <jmfmckay@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: Comments on draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-00

And a couple of additional comments on -01 (the subject had -00 in it and p=
robably shouldn't have)


  *   Since section 1 scopes the definition of RIV to certain types of netw=
ork equipment, I find the term RIV to be

overly broad, since it has a name that implies it is remote attestation for=
 all purposes, which it's apparently not.

I would recommend that, like the title of the doc, the term RIV be narrowed=
 significantly by adding words

to indicate its narrow scope.



  *   Section 4 says:

In light of these
   requirements for protecting the privacy of users of the network, the
   Network Equipment must identify itself, and its boot configuration
   and measured device state (for example, PCR values), to the
   Equipment's Administrator, so there's no uncertainty as to what
   function each device and configuration is configured to carry out .



RIV specifically addresses the collection information from enterprise
   network devices by an enterprise network.

               However, those two sentences appear to be contradictory.   T=
he first one talks about
               the "Equipment's Administrator" whereas the second one talks=
 about "an enterprise network".
               Unless you further narrow the scope in section 1.5 to only c=
ases where those are the same,
               you should not assume that the "Equipment's Administrator" a=
nd the "enterprise network"
               are the same organization.


  *   Another point on the same text in section 4 is that it talks about "b=
oot" configuration and then says
"there's no uncertainty as to what function each device and configuration i=
s configured to carry out".

In order to have "no uncertainty" you either have to remove the word "boot"=
, so that it's not just

"boot" configuration, but configuration in general, or else constrain your =
definition of "embedded"

to cases where all configuration and functionality is fixed at boot time.  =
That's common in embedded,

but not universal, depending on your definition of embedded.  Currently you=
 only define "embedded"

as "where the device manufacturer ships the software image for the device"

but that by itself doesn't mean all functionality is fixed at boot time.  E=
.g., the configuration might be

separate from the software image, and might even be obtained after boot, un=
less you scope down your

definition of "embedded".



  *   Section 5 says

"TPM practices require that these keys be different, as a way of
   ensuring that a general-purpose signing key cannot be used to spoof
   an attestation quote."

and

"To prevent spoofing, the quote generated inside the TPM must by
   signed by a key that's different from the DevID, called an
   Attestation Key (AK)."



The claim that a split is necessary to prevent spoofing is non-obvious (I k=
now I didn't follow it).  I would recommend either

  1.  Delete the text about spoofing and just say that's how TPM works, or
  2.  Provide an explanation, or
  3.  Reference a publically accessible document that has the explanation.

Dave

From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf =
Of Dave Thaler
Sent: Wednesday, November 6, 2019 4:26 PM
To: Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org<mailto:gfedorkow=
=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>>
Cc: rats@ietf.org<mailto:rats@ietf.org>; Thomas Hardjono <hardjono@mit.edu<=
mailto:hardjono@mit.edu>>; Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com<mailto:ned.smith=
@intel.com>>; Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de<mailto:henk.bi=
rkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>; Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay <jmfmckay@gmail.com<ma=
ilto:jmfmckay@gmail.com>>
Subject: [Rats] Comments on draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-=
00

[updated subject line]

Here's some comments on draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-00, =
in addition to the one in the thread copied at bottom...

Section 1.2:

?  o  Platform Identity, the mechanism providing trusted identity, can

  *   reassure network managers that the specific devices they ordered
  *   from authorized manufacturers for attachment to their network are
  *   those that were installed, and that they continue to be present in
  *   their network.  As part of the mechanism for Platform Identity,
  *   cryptographic proof of the identity of the manufacturer is also
  *   provided.

Above is somewhat ambiguous.   When it says "the specific devices", is it t=
alking about device instances
(in the exact serial number or key pair sense), or the same models?   I.e.,=
 I ordered 3 widgets, and I got
three widgets (and not three oranges or something else).  Is this talking a=
bout verifying that they're
widgets, or that they're the precise 3 widgets you're expecting?   I suspec=
t you mean the latter but it's not
clear.   Assuming you do mean instances, then knowing that they're the spec=
ific devices that were ordered
presumes some mechanism for learning the public keys of the devices ordered=
, prior to their arrival, and
this should be called out.

Section 2.1 discusses the model where the verifier communicates directly wi=
th the attested device.
However, it doesn't point out the problems with that model, which is that t=
he attested device will see this
as unsolicited inbound communication, and hence and sort of host firewall-l=
ike behavior will prevent the
interrogation from succeeding.    Section 1.5 already constrains the scope =
to a very narrow scenario, but
it's not sufficient, it has to be constrained further to the scenario where=
 unsolicited inbound communication
is permitted.   Allowing unsolicited inbound communication opens up other p=
otential security and privacy
risks that should be discussed in sections 4 and 5.

Given the narrowness of the applicability, and the security and privacy ris=
ks inherent in the model where
the verifier communicates directly with the attested device, it's not obvio=
us why this is a good direction
to pursue, especially if there might be alternatives that are both more bro=
adly applicable, and more secure/private.

I have no objection if there are good reasons, but the draft doesn't yet pr=
ovide sufficient justification
in my view.

Thanks,
Dave

From: Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org<mailto:gfedork=
ow=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>>
Sent: Wednesday, November 6, 2019 12:57 PM
To: Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com<mailto:dthaler@microsoft.com>>
Cc: rats@ietf.org<mailto:rats@ietf.org>; Thomas Hardjono <hardjono@mit.edu<=
mailto:hardjono@mit.edu>>; Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com<mailto:ned.smith=
@intel.com>>; Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de<mailto:henk.bi=
rkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>; Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay <jmfmckay@gmail.com<ma=
ilto:jmfmckay@gmail.com>>
Subject: RE: RIV and the RATS architecture

Hi Dave,
  Ok, I suppose the model where the verifier communicates directly with the=
 attested device is a kind of sub-contracted full-service background check.=
  That's ok with me, as long as no one interprets the diagram as meaning th=
at the relying party must somehow insert itself into the exchange between V=
erifier and Attester.

  And I see what you mean about lining up the scope of RIV.  The draft has =
gone through a number of changes as we've tried to disentangle it from TCG =
tribal knowledge.
  I think the scope is set by a couple factors.
  The doc as written is clearly limited to TPM-based systems.  That's certa=
inly not the only way to manage a root of trust, but it's the one that's av=
ailable on a lot of gear already, and it's fairly stable and tightly spec'd=
.  From the TCG side, I'd expect there would be interest in extending the i=
deas to other TCG roots of trust such as DICE, but it seems that should be =
driven out of TCG.

  The limitation to Network Equipment is entirely a matter of expedience.  =
I think the approach would work easily in other embedded applications, alth=
ough YANG is likely a fixation only relevant to networking guys.  Other dom=
ains would presumably need other domain-specific protocols.

  I'll connect with Jessica to see if we can figure out how to align the na=
me and scope a bit better with the rest of the RATS world.

  Thanks
/guy




Juniper Business Use Only
From: Dave Thaler <dthaler=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org<mailto:dthaler=
=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>>
Sent: Monday, November 4, 2019 3:56 PM
To: Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net<mailto:gfedorkow@juniper.net>>
Cc: rats@ietf.org<mailto:rats@ietf.org>; Thomas Hardjono <hardjono@mit.edu<=
mailto:hardjono@mit.edu>>; Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com<mailto:ned.smith=
@intel.com>>; Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de<mailto:henk.bi=
rkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>; Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay <jmfmckay@gmail.com<ma=
ilto:jmfmckay@gmail.com>>
Subject: RE: RIV and the RATS architecture

Hi Guy, sorry for the delay, I was at a conference (Open Source Summit, Con=
fidential Computing Consortium, and Linux Security Summit were all co-locat=
ed) all last week and traveling there/back.

Responses inline below...

From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf =
Of Guy Fedorkow
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2019 12:27 PM
To: Dave Thaler <dthaler=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org<mailto:dthaler=3D=
40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>>
Cc: rats@ietf.org<mailto:rats@ietf.org>; Thomas Hardjono <hardjono@mit.edu<=
mailto:hardjono@mit.edu>>; Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com<mailto:ned.smith=
@intel.com>>; Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de<mailto:henk.bi=
rkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>; Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay <jmfmckay@gmail.com<ma=
ilto:jmfmckay@gmail.com>>
Subject: [Rats] RIV and the RATS architecture

Hi Dave,
  Thanks for your doc https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thaler-rats-archite=
cture-00<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/nam06.safelinks.protection.outl=
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Cdthaler*40microsoft..com*7C1bf26678bca14945d3bd08d763191133*7C72f988bf86f1=
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BZFq8Se5MIXVP-bsHRkuSwjYOdlg3eAgtRn20$>.
  Do you have a view as to how the TPM-based attestation described in RIV w=
ould fit with the proposed categorization?
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-=
00<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.co=
m/?url=3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fnam06.safelinks.p=
rotection.outlook.com*2F*3Furl*3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Ftools.ietf.org*2Fhtml*2Fdraf=
t-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-00*26data*3D02*7C01*7Cdthaler*40=
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BZFq8Se5MIXVP-bsHRkuSwjYOdlg3eGnNGpPw$>

Great question. From my reading of draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attes=
tation-00, it's a background check model, as section 2.3 of your doc explai=
ns:
>   3.  A Relying Party, which has access to the Verifier to request
>       attestation and to act on results.

That sentence above is by definition the background check model.
That is, the Attester talks to the Relying Party, the Relying Party then re=
quests a background check by consulting a Verifier,
and will accept whatever answer the Verifier decides.
There are ways where you could use the passport model for network device at=
testation,
but your document only covers the background check model.

  It doesn't seem to be a passport, since the attester only provides raw ev=
idence, not a pre-approved passport

Agreed, from my reading of your document.

  It doesn't seem to be a background check, as it's the verifier that colle=
cts and analyzes the evidence.

If I understand your point here, you're saying that the verifier talks dire=
ctly to the attester (e.g., by querying the yang module), without going bac=
k through the relying party, and that that seemed to you to be different fr=
om a classic "background check" diagram.  Did I get your point correctly?

If so, then I see it as a variation of the background check model, as oppos=
ed to a separate model per se.

  I'm not sure it matters to RIV, as we haven't drawn much distinction betw=
een the relying party and the verifier...  As you say, if they're on the sa=
me machine, the distinction is almost moot.

Agree.

And if they're not, I think the communication is out of scope for RIV (if n=
ot for RATS).

I disagree that it's out of scope for RATS.

I have no opinion on whether it's out of scope for RIV, since I still have =
some confusion on the intended scope of RIV.
I note that your document constrains its scope (in section 1.5) to only TPM=
-based embedded devices, and not other
types of devices.   I couldn't tell if the scope of RIV and the scope of th=
e draft (which does not have RIV in the name, or in
section 1.5) are similar or one is a subset of the other.   Indeed, the tit=
le of the document is far wider than just TPM-based
embedded devices, so in that sense the title doesn't match the scoping in s=
ection 1.5.   Just explaining why there's not
enough information for me to have an opinion on verifier-relying party comm=
unication in RIV.

There can be other network attestation solutions that look quite different =
from the flow in your draft
(and I have no skin in this game, so don't have a bias towards any solution=
 in particular).   For example,
some other solution might involve a RADIUS server being a Verifier, so the =
verifier - relying party communication might
be RADIUS in that example.   There's many ways to construct solutions, and =
so I imagine there's probably multiple
solutions already out there, since the NEA problem is not new even in the I=
ETF (https://tools....ietf.org/wg/nea/<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/n=
am06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2=
Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Ftools.ietf.org*2Fwg*2Fnea*2F__*3B!8WoA6RjC81c!Rpme4JKWET=
jOw_zisYJRdztjgIgNvTA_HZoPymMV_ggWZP8BkjOlbCzLuKc1mSGm10I*24&data=3D02*7C01=
*7Cdthaler*40microsoft.com*7C1bf26678bca14945d3bd08d763191133*7C72f988bf86f=
141af91ab2d7cd011db47*7C1*7C0*7C637086831671094320&sdata=3DjzwLX8epRspaFxc1=
XVL61XMieibUdFECiPAD2860Dzg*3D&reserved=3D0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!=
8WoA6RjC81c!Xn2_O62Wg9lin7aRm0WrBgW70EydD8BZFq8Se5MIXVP-bsHRkuSwjYOdlg3eRfx=
7-V0$> has
pointers to RFCs for anyone reading this who's not already aware of it).

  But it would be good ensure the architecture and the applications of it a=
ctually do fit together...

Absolutely.

Dave

  Thanks
/guy






Juniper Business Use Only

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<body lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Dave,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; I&#8217;ll look at the title and scope again.=
&nbsp; Within TCG, we&#8217;d left it a bit ambiguous, as there are a numbe=
r of applications that it would fit without too much work.&nbsp; But for RA=
TS, I&#8217;m fine with being more careful to delineate where the work
 as written fits.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; We&#8217;ll think of a more-formal way to say=
 this, but as Jessica said, the actual scope of the doc is &#8220;things wi=
th a TPM that use YANG, and don&#8217;t do sleep/wake cycles&#8221;.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;I assume this can&#8217;t be changed now=
 given that the IETF106 deadline has passed, but there will be another revi=
sion one way or another in which I can address your other comments.<o:p></o=
:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; Thanks<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">/guy<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"msipfooter30b3d538" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin:0in;margin=
-bottom:.0001pt;text-align:center">
<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;c=
olor:black">Juniper Business Use Only</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Dave Thaler &lt;dthaler=3D40microsoft.c=
om@dmarc.ietf.org&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 6, 2019 8:18 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Guy Fedorkow &lt;gfedorkow@juniper.net&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> rats@ietf.org; Thomas Hardjono &lt;hardjono@mit.edu&gt;; Smith, =
Ned &lt;ned.smith@intel.com&gt;; Henk Birkholz &lt;henk.birkholz@sit.fraunh=
ofer.de&gt;; Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay &lt;jmfmckay@gmail.com&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Comments on draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestat=
ion-00<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">And a couple of additional comments on -01 (the subj=
ect had -00 in it and probably shouldn&#8217;t have)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo1">Since section 1 scopes the definition of RIV to certain types of netw=
ork equipment, I find the term RIV to be<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph">overly broad, since it has a name that implie=
s it is remote attestation for all purposes, which it&#8217;s apparently no=
t.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph">I would recommend that, like the title of the=
 doc, the term RIV be narrowed significantly by adding words<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph">to indicate its narrow scope.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo1">Section 4 says:<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-left:.5in;text-indent:.25in"><spa=
n style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">In light of these<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; requirements for protecting the privacy of users of the networ=
k, the<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; Network Equipment must identify itself, and its boot configura=
tion<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; and measured device state (for example, PCR values), to the<br=
>
&nbsp;&nbsp; Equipment's Administrator, so there's no uncertainty as to wha=
t<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; function each device and configuration is configured to carry =
out .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-left:.25in;text-indent:.25in"><sp=
an style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-left:.5in;text-indent:.25in"><spa=
n style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">RIV specifically addresses =
the collection information from enterprise<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; network devices by an enterprise network.&nbsp; </span><o:p></=
o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; However, those two sentences appear to be =
contradictory.&nbsp;&nbsp; The first one talks about<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; the &#8220;Equipment&#8217;s Administrator&#8221; whereas the sec=
ond one talks about &#8220;an enterprise network&#8221;.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Unless you further narrow the scope in sec=
tion 1.5 to only cases where those are the same,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; you should not assume that the &#8220;Equi=
pment&#8217;s Administrator&#8221; and the &#8220;enterprise network&#8221;=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; are the same organization.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo1">Another point on the same text in section 4 is that it talks about &#=
8220;boot&#8221; configuration and then says<br>
&#8220;there&#8217;s no uncertainty as to what function each device and con=
figuration is configured to carry out&#8221;.<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph">In order to have &#8220;no uncertainty&#8221;=
 you either have to remove the word &#8220;boot&#8221;, so that it&#8217;s =
not just<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph">&#8220;boot&#8221; configuration, but configu=
ration in general, or else constrain your definition of &#8220;embedded&#82=
21;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph">to cases where all configuration and function=
ality is fixed at boot time.&nbsp; That&#8217;s common in embedded,<o:p></o=
:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph">but not universal, depending on your definiti=
on of embedded.&nbsp; Currently you only define &#8220;embedded&#8221;<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"text-indent:.5in"><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">as &#8220;</span><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:&quot;Courier New&quot;">where the device manufacturer ships the soft=
ware image for the device&#8221;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph">but that by itself doesn&#8217;t mean all fun=
ctionality is fixed at boot time.&nbsp; E.g., the configuration might be<o:=
p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph">separate from the software image, and might e=
ven be obtained after boot, unless you scope down your<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph">definition of &#8220;embedded&#8221;.<o:p></o=
:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span style=3D=
"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Section 5 says
</span><o:p></o:p></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&#8220;TPM practices require that these keys =
be different, as a way of<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; ensuring that a general-purpose signing key cannot be used to =
spoof<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; an attestation quote.&#8221;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">and<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">&#8220;</span><span style=3D"font-fami=
ly:&quot;Courier New&quot;">To prevent spoofing, the quote generated inside=
 the TPM must by<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; signed by a key that's different from the DevID, called an<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; Attestation Key (AK).&#8221; </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoCommentText" style=3D"text-indent:.5in"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoCommentText" style=3D"text-indent:.5in">The claim that a spl=
it is necessary to prevent spoofing is non-obvious (I know I didn&#8217;t f=
ollow it).&nbsp; I would recommend either<o:p></o:p></p>
<ol style=3D"margin-top:0in" start=3D"1" type=3D"a">
<li class=3D"MsoCommentText" style=3D"margin-left:.25in;mso-list:l2 level1 =
lfo2">Delete the text about spoofing and just say that&#8217;s how TPM work=
s, or<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoCommentText" style=3D"margin-left:.25i=
n;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2">Provide an explanation, or<o:p></o:p></li><li cl=
ass=3D"MsoCommentText" style=3D"margin-left:.25in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2">=
Reference a publically accessible document that has the explanation.<o:p></=
o:p></li></ol>
<p class=3D"MsoCommentText">Dave<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> RATS &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces=
@ietf.org">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Dave Thaler<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 6, 2019 4:26 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Guy Fedorkow &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gfedorkow=3D40juniper.net@dma=
rc.ietf.org">gfedorkow=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org">rats@ietf.org</a>; Thomas Hardj=
ono &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hardjono@mit.edu">hardjono@mit.edu</a>&gt;; Smith=
, Ned &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com">ned.smith@intel.com</a>&gt=
;; Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de">hen=
k.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;;
 Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jmfmckay@gmail.com">jmfmcka=
y@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Rats] Comments on draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attes=
tation-00<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[updated subject line]<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Here&#8217;s some comments on draft-fedorkow-rats-ne=
twork-device-attestation-00, in addition to the one in the thread copied at=
 bottom&#8230;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Section 1.2:<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3">=
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D"><s=
pan style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&Oslash;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times=
 New Roman&quot;">&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]>o&nbsp; Platform Id=
entity, the mechanism providing trusted identity, can<o:p></o:p></pre>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level1 =
lfo3"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
reassure network managers that the specific devices they ordered<o:p></o:p>=
</span></li><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-lis=
t:l1 level1 lfo3"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier=
 New&quot;">from authorized manufacturers for attachment to their network a=
re<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-lef=
t:0in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Courier New&quot;">those that were installed, and that they continue =
to be present in<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=
=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">their network.&nbsp; As part of the =
mechanism for Platform Identity,<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=3D"MsoList=
Paragraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3"><span style=3D=
"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">cryptographic proof =
of the identity of the manufacturer is also<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=
=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3"><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">provided.=
<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Above is somewhat ambiguous.&nbsp;&nbsp; When it say=
s &#8220;the specific devices&#8221;, is it talking about device instances<=
o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">(in the exact serial number or key pair sense), or t=
he same models?&nbsp;&nbsp; I.e., I ordered 3 widgets, and I got<o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">three widgets (and not three oranges or something el=
se).&nbsp; Is this talking about verifying that they&#8217;re<o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">widgets, or that they&#8217;re the precise 3 widgets=
 you&#8217;re expecting?&nbsp;&nbsp; I suspect you mean the latter but it&#=
8217;s not<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">clear.&nbsp;&nbsp; Assuming you do mean instances, t=
hen knowing that they&#8217;re the specific devices that were ordered<o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">presumes some mechanism for learning the public keys=
 of the devices ordered, prior to their arrival, and<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">this should be called out.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Section 2.1 discusses the model where the verifier c=
ommunicates directly with the attested device.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">However, it doesn&#8217;t point out the problems wit=
h that model, which is that the attested device will see this<o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">as unsolicited inbound communication, and hence and =
sort of host firewall-like behavior will prevent the<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">interrogation from succeeding.&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;Sec=
tion 1.5 already constrains the scope to a very narrow scenario, but<o:p></=
o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">it&#8217;s not sufficient, it has to be constrained =
further to the scenario where unsolicited inbound communication<o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">is permitted.&nbsp;&nbsp; Allowing unsolicited inbou=
nd communication opens up other potential security and privacy<o:p></o:p></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">risks that should be discussed in sections 4 and 5.<=
o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Given the narrowness of the applicability, and the s=
ecurity and privacy risks inherent in the model where<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">the verifier communicates directly with the attested=
 device, it&#8217;s not obvious why this is a good direction<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">to pursue, especially if there might be alternatives=
 that are both more broadly applicable, and more secure/private.<o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I have no objection if there are good reasons, but t=
he draft doesn&#8217;t yet provide sufficient justification<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">in my view.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dave<span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Guy Fedorkow &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gfed=
orkow=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org">gfedorkow=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.=
org</a>&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 6, 2019 12:57 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Dave Thaler &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dthaler@microsoft.com">dthaler=
@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org">rats@ietf.org</a>; Thomas Hardj=
ono &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hardjono@mit.edu">hardjono@mit.edu</a>&gt;; Smith=
, Ned &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com">ned.smith@intel.com</a>&gt=
;; Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de">hen=
k.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;;
 Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jmfmckay@gmail.com">jmfmcka=
y@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: RIV and the RATS architecture<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Dave,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; Ok, I suppose the model where the verifier co=
mmunicates directly with the attested device is a kind of sub-contracted fu=
ll-service background check.&nbsp; That&#8217;s ok with me, as long as no o=
ne interprets the diagram as meaning that the relying
 party must somehow insert itself into the exchange between Verifier and At=
tester.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; And I see what you mean about lining up the s=
cope of RIV.&nbsp; The draft has gone through a number of changes as we&#82=
17;ve tried to disentangle it from TCG tribal knowledge.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; I think the scope is set by a couple factors.=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; The doc as written is clearly limited to TPM-=
based systems.&nbsp; That&#8217;s certainly not the only way to manage a ro=
ot of trust, but it&#8217;s the one that&#8217;s available on a lot of gear=
 already, and it&#8217;s fairly stable and tightly spec&#8217;d.&nbsp; From=
 the
 TCG side, I&#8217;d expect there would be interest in extending the ideas =
to other TCG roots of trust such as DICE, but it seems that should be drive=
n out of TCG.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; The limitation to Network Equipment is entire=
ly a matter of expedience.&nbsp; I think the approach would work easily in =
other embedded applications, although YANG is likely a fixation only releva=
nt to networking guys. &nbsp;Other domains would
 presumably need other domain-specific protocols.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; I&#8217;ll connect with Jessica to see if we =
can figure out how to align the name and scope a bit better with the rest o=
f the RATS world.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; Thanks<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">/guy<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"msipfooter30b3d538" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin:0in;margin=
-bottom:.0001pt;text-align:center">
<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;c=
olor:black">Juniper Business Use Only</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Dave Thaler &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dthal=
er=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org">dthaler=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 4, 2019 3:56 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Guy Fedorkow &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gfedorkow@juniper.net">gfedor=
kow@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org">rats@ietf.org</a>; Thomas Hardj=
ono &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hardjono@mit.edu">hardjono@mit.edu</a>&gt;; Smith=
, Ned &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com">ned.smith@intel.com</a>&gt=
;; Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de">hen=
k.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;;
 Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jmfmckay@gmail.com">jmfmcka=
y@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: RIV and the RATS architecture<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Hi Guy, sorry for the =
delay, I was at a conference (Open Source Summit, Confidential Computing Co=
nsortium, and Linux Security Summit were all co-located) all last week and =
traveling there/back.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"color:#1F4=
97D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Responses inline below=
&#8230;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"color:#1F4=
97D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><b>From:</b> RATS &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Guy Fedorkow<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, October 31, 2019 12:27 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Dave Thaler &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dthaler=3D40microsoft.com@dmar=
c.ietf.org">dthaler=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org">rats@ietf.org</a>; Thomas Hardj=
ono &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hardjono@mit.edu">hardjono@mit.edu</a>&gt;; Smith=
, Ned &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com">ned.smith@intel.com</a>&gt=
;; Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de">hen=
k.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;;
 Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jmfmckay@gmail.com">jmfmcka=
y@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Rats] RIV and the RATS architecture<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">Hi Dave,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp; Thanks for your do=
c <a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/nam06.safelinks.protection.=
outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fnam06.s=
afelinks.protection.outlook...com*2F*3Furl*3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Ftools.ietf.org*2=
Fhtml*2Fdraft-thaler-rats-architecture-00*26data*3D02*7C01*7Cdthaler*40micr=
osoft.com*7C520adf8cc884437d639508d75e385c4d*7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011=
db47*7C1*7C0*7C637081468537546960*26sdata*3D20zFPTGCbLybPlTaNB2E6uSb3re0G2b=
YPGC8F9TNXis*3D*26reserved*3D0__*3BJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!8WoA6RjC81c!Rpme4JKW=
ETjOw_zisYJRdztjgIgNvTA_HZoPymMV_ggWZP8BkjOlbCzLuKc18WRBFIY*24&amp;data=3D0=
2*7C01*7Cdthaler*40microsoft..com*7C1bf26678bca14945d3bd08d763191133*7C72f9=
88bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47*7C1*7C0*7C637086831671084329&amp;sdata=3DLo3rk=
bTEksxPZCDIB*2FuCj*2BszeMO4xQuHUxDkOF9DZBk*3D&amp;reserved=3D0__;JSUlJSUlJS=
UlJSoqKioqJSUqKioqKioqKiUlKiUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!8WoA6RjC81c!Xn2_O62Wg9lin7=
aRm0WrBgW70EydD8BZFq8Se5MIXVP-bsHRkuSwjYOdlg3eAgtRn20$">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thaler-rats-architecture-00</a>.<o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp; Do you have a view=
 as to how the TPM-based attestation described in RIV would fit with the pr=
oposed categorization?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><a href=3D"https://urldef=
ense.com/v3/__https:/nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps*3A=
*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fnam06.safelinks.protection.outlook=
.com*2F*3Furl*3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Ftools.ietf.org*2Fhtml*2Fdraft-fedorkow-rats-n=
etwork-device-attestation-00*26data*3D02*7C01*7Cdthaler*40microsoft.com*7C5=
20adf8cc884437d639508d75e385c4d*7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47*7C1*7C0*=
7C637081468537556953*26sdata*3DVTByXHpjuEMkojKjjly0i0BbnvujhB4fIpQaqiPFDKA*=
3D*26reserved*3D0__*3BJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!8WoA6RjC81c!Rpme4JKWETjOw_zisYJRd=
ztjgIgNvTA_HZoPymMV_ggWZP8BkjOlbCzLuKc1fEcZrRQ*24&amp;data=3D02*7C01*7Cdtha=
ler*40microsoft.com*7C1bf26678bca14945d3bd08d763191133*7C72f988bf86f141af91=
ab2d7cd011db47*7C1*7C0*7C637086831671084329&amp;sdata=3DW95iVCu0BKi3ioryV7Z=
OngYQnALJEwEgF19Iw6sXTHg*3D&amp;reserved=3D0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSoqKioqJSUqKioq=
KioqKiUlKiUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!8WoA6RjC81c!Xn2_O62Wg9lin7aRm0WrBgW70EydD8BZFq8=
Se5MIXVP-bsHRkuSwjYOdlg3eGnNGpPw$">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fedork=
ow-rats-network-device-attestation-00</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"color:#1F4=
97D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Great question. From m=
y reading of draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-00, it&#8217;s =
a background check model, as section 2.3 of your doc explains:<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Consolas=
;color:black;background:white">&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; 3.&nbsp; A Relying Party, w=
hich has access to the Verifier to request<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Consolas=
;color:black;background:white">&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; att=
estation and to act on results.</span><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">That sentence above is=
 by definition the background check model.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">That is, the Attester =
talks to the Relying Party, the Relying Party then requests a background ch=
eck by consulting a Verifier,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">and will accept whatev=
er answer the Verifier decides.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">There are ways where y=
ou could use the passport model for network device attestation,<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">but your document only=
 covers the background check model.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp; It doesn&#8217;t s=
eem to be a passport, since the attester only provides raw evidence, not a =
pre-approved passport<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Agreed, from my readin=
g of your document.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp; It doesn&#8217;t s=
eem to be a background check, as it&#8217;s the verifier that collects and =
analyzes the evidence.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">If I understand your p=
oint here, you&#8217;re saying that the verifier talks directly to the atte=
ster (e.g., by querying the yang module), without going back through the re=
lying party, and that that seemed to you to
 be different from a classic &#8220;background check&#8221; diagram.&nbsp; =
Did I get your point correctly?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">If so, then I see it a=
s a variation of the background check model, as opposed to a separate model=
 per se.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp; I&#8217;m not sure=
 it matters to RIV, as we haven&#8217;t drawn much distinction between the =
relying party and the verifier&#8230;&nbsp; As you say, if they&#8217;re on=
 the same machine, the distinction is almost moot.&nbsp;<span style=3D"colo=
r:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Agree.<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">And if they&#8217;re not,=
 I think the communication is out of scope for RIV (if not for RATS).<span =
style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">I disagree that it&#82=
17;s out of scope for RATS.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">I have no opinion on w=
hether it&#8217;s out of scope for RIV, since I still have some confusion o=
n the intended scope of RIV.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">I note that your docum=
ent constrains its scope (in section 1.5) to only TPM-based embedded device=
s, and not other<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">types of devices.&nbsp=
;&nbsp; I couldn&#8217;t tell if the scope of RIV and the scope of the draf=
t (which does not have RIV in the name, or in<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">section 1.5) are simil=
ar or one is a subset of the other.&nbsp;&nbsp; Indeed, the title of the do=
cument is far wider than just TPM-based<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">embedded devices, so i=
n that sense the title doesn&#8217;t match the scoping in section 1.5. &nbs=
p;&nbsp;Just explaining why there&#8217;s not<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">enough information for=
 me to have an opinion on verifier-relying party communication in RIV.<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">There can be other net=
work attestation solutions that look quite different from the flow in your =
draft<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">(and I have no skin in=
 this game, so don&#8217;t have a bias towards any solution in particular).=
&nbsp;&nbsp; For example,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">some other solution mi=
ght involve a RADIUS server being a Verifier, so the verifier &#8211; relyi=
ng party communication might<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">be RADIUS in that exam=
ple.&nbsp;&nbsp; There&#8217;s many ways to construct solutions, and so I i=
magine there&#8217;s probably multiple<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">solutions already out =
there, since the NEA problem is not new even in the IETF (<a href=3D"https:=
//urldefense.com/v3/__https:/nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3D=
https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Ftools.ietf.org*2Fwg*2Fnea*=
2F__*3B!8WoA6RjC81c!Rpme4JKWETjOw_zisYJRdztjgIgNvTA_HZoPymMV_ggWZP8BkjOlbCz=
LuKc1mSGm10I*24&amp;data=3D02*7C01*7Cdthaler*40microsoft.com*7C1bf26678bca1=
4945d3bd08d763191133*7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47*7C1*7C0*7C637086831=
671094320&amp;sdata=3DjzwLX8epRspaFxc1XVL61XMieibUdFECiPAD2860Dzg*3D&amp;re=
served=3D0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!8WoA6RjC81c!Xn2_O62Wg9lin7aRm0WrB=
gW70EydD8BZFq8Se5MIXVP-bsHRkuSwjYOdlg3eRfx7-V0$">https://tools....ietf.org/=
wg/nea/</a>
 has<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">pointers to RFCs for a=
nyone reading this who&#8217;s not already aware of it).<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp; But it would be go=
od ensure the architecture and the applications of it actually do fit toget=
her&#8230;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Absolutely.<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Dave<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp;&nbsp;Thanks<o:p></=
o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">/guy<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"msipfooter30b3d538" align=3D"center" style=3D"mso-margin-top-al=
t:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.00=
01pt;text-align:center">
<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;c=
olor:black">Juniper Business Use Only</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
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Comments: In-reply-to Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> message dated "Mon, 04 Nov 2019 22:22:31 +0100."
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Subject: Re: [Rats] RIV and the RATS architecture
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Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
    > we did a "best fit" matching of use cases with the two message flows
    > "passport" and "back-end", and while it is possible to cluster those
    > with some... leniency, the goal is to provide the basis for mapping by
    > using both roles and message flows in the architecture
    > document. "Passport" and "Back-End" flows really helped to streamline

I think that TUDA won't fit into: Passport or Background Check.

=2D-=20
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-




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From: "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" <ncamwing@cisco.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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From nobody Sun Nov 10 14:44:35 2019
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Cc: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
To: "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" <ncamwing@cisco.com>
References: <8B173958-FC2A-4D1D-A81C-F324AB632CD7@cisco.com> <147F9159-6055-4E55-ABDC-43DFE3498BF1@island-resort.com> <ce5f8206-74dc-36bb-0093-a93045d5c67f@sit.fraunhofer.de> <0A7E3A4F-8534-4E98-BCB7-1454E07699F4@island-resort.com> <C3AE2645-49C8-4313-BCED-02FEB576B614@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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> On Nov 10, 2019, at 2:20 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) =
<ncamwing@cisco.com> wrote:
>=20
> So, Laurence, are you still OK with the adoption of the current draft =
with a rename for now?
> Thanks, Nancy

I think the value add to the larger RATS effort of adding EAT support to =
this YANG protocol is really high. It a core thing to do that helps =
bring together the two attestation worlds and make the TPM and EAT work =
here less like ships in the night.

Remote TPM attestations are useful and necessary the short run, but are =
of very limited capability. I believe that EAT will replace TPM =
attestations in the long run (maybe decades) because they are far more =
expressive. I know others believe that too.=20

If we don=E2=80=99t include EAT in the YANG mode it is sort of like =
defining HTTP to only convey HTML to the exclusion of PDF. We=E2=80=99re =
defining an attestation protocol that can only move one kind of =
attestation even though we have consensus on what the other one looks =
like.

It seems relatively simple to add EAT support (or promise to add EAT =
support). Pretty sure I heard Henk agree to add it.

Thus, I am opposed to adoption with the current TPM-only draft. I=E2=80=99=
d be OK with the current draft and a promise to add EAT to it.

LL


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
Nov 10, 2019, at 2:20 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com" class=3D"">ncamwing@cisco.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">So, Laurence, are you still OK =
with the adoption of the current draft with a rename for now?</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">Thanks, =
Nancy</span></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">I =
think the value add to the larger RATS effort of adding EAT support to =
this YANG protocol is really high. It a core thing to do that helps =
bring together the two attestation worlds and make the TPM and EAT work =
here less like ships in the night.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Remote TPM attestations are useful and =
necessary the short run, but are of very limited capability. I believe =
that EAT will replace TPM attestations in the long run (maybe decades) =
because they are far more expressive. I know others believe that =
too.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If =
we don=E2=80=99t include EAT in the YANG mode it is sort of like =
defining HTTP to only convey HTML to the exclusion of PDF. We=E2=80=99re =
defining an attestation protocol that can only move one kind of =
attestation even though we have consensus on what the other one looks =
like.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">It seems =
relatively simple to add EAT support (or promise to add EAT support). =
Pretty sure I heard Henk agree to add it.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Thus, I am opposed to adoption with the =
current TPM-only draft. I=E2=80=99d be OK with the current draft and a =
promise to add EAT to it.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_6241C201-BAE3-4BE2-84CB-E0E55579358A--


From nobody Sun Nov 10 16:24:22 2019
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From: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
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Subject: [Rats] clarity on JWT vs YANG-serialization: base64 vs base64url
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From: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
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Subject: clarity on JWT vs YANG-serialization: base64 vs base64url
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When it comes to JWT encapsulation and YANG serialized JSON there are
some potential conflicts that I want to bring up.=C2=A0 This is worth a 5=

minute discussion at a future meeting (perhaps premature for IETF106).

I've posted about this to other lists in the past two weeks, but I don't
have the references, and I don't have enough Internet to look them up
from here.

The specific conflict is that JWT, coming from the web space, uses
base64URL encoding for binary objects (signatures..., etc.) while YANG,
uses base64 encoding for binary objects.=C2=A0 This is a documentation
annoyance, but it will catch at least one implementer.

Tolerant decoders might accept both (but neither Python or Ruby base64
decoders are tolerant), but I don't think we can in general, demand that
either is acceptable, so we have to say which to use each time.

We will just have to be clear going forward, and hit people over the
head with this.=C2=A0 I can easily see YANG described data (signatures on=

Evidence) from a TPM device being base64 encoded, and then placed into a
JWT container which is base64URL signed (for a Claim).




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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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From: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module
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On 2019-11-11 6:44 a.m., Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>
>> On Nov 10, 2019, at 2:20 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)
>> <ncamwing@cisco.com <mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com>> wrote:
>>
>> So, Laurence, are you still OK with the adoption of the current draft
>> with a rename for now?
>> Thanks, Nancy

You suggested the name:

=E2=80=9CYang Module for TPM based Remote Attestations=E2=80=9D

But, I think that it should say instead, "Yang Interface to TPM 2.0"

>
> I think the value add to the larger RATS effort of adding EAT support
> to this YANG protocol is really high. It a core thing to do that helps
> bring together the two attestation worlds and make the TPM and EAT
> work here less like ships in the night.

Can you explain what it would mean to add EAT support for a YANG module?
Maybe I'm daft here.

The current document is essentially a YANG wrapper around the TPM 2.0
specification.=C2=A0 It's RPC, data in motion.

While EAT is primary a JWT/CWT object, which is data-at-rest.
I think that you are looking for a way to express non-TCG defined
evidence containers.




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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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From: "Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" <ncamwing@cisco.com>
CC: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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--_000_HE1PR0702MB375366C5F7FE5C497C35D73B8F740HE1PR0702MB3753_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
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> Remote TPM attestations are useful and necessary the short run, but are o=
f very limited capability. I believe that > EAT will replace TPM attestatio=
ns in the long run (maybe decades) because they are far more expressive. I =
know > others believe that too.

I would disagree with the statement of "short run" ... TPM is practically t=
he only existing standardised (hardware, software, firmware, measurement - =
x86 only etc) hardware root of trust in common use, ie: practically all x86=
 machines,  The attestation mechanisms provided are going to be around for =
a very long time.

>From telco experience, 30 years ago we said SS7 would only be around in the=
 short term.

> Thus, I am opposed to adoption with the current TPM-only draft. I=92d be =
OK with the current draft and a promise > to add EAT to it.

Agree

Ian


--

Dr. Ian Oliver

Cybersecurity Research

Distinguished Member of Technical Staff

Nokia Bell Labs

+358 50 483 6237

________________________________
From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
Sent: 11 November 2019 00:44
To: Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) <ncamwing@cisco.com>
Cc: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>; rats@ietf.org <rats@ie=
tf.org>
Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module =
draft


On Nov 10, 2019, at 2:20 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) <ncamwing@cisco.co=
m<mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com>> wrote:

So, Laurence, are you still OK with the adoption of the current draft with =
a rename for now?
Thanks, Nancy

I think the value add to the larger RATS effort of adding EAT support to th=
is YANG protocol is really high. It a core thing to do that helps bring tog=
ether the two attestation worlds and make the TPM and EAT work here less li=
ke ships in the night.

Remote TPM attestations are useful and necessary the short run, but are of =
very limited capability. I believe that EAT will replace TPM attestations i=
n the long run (maybe decades) because they are far more expressive. I know=
 others believe that too.

If we don=92t include EAT in the YANG mode it is sort of like defining HTTP=
 to only convey HTML to the exclusion of PDF. We=92re defining an attestati=
on protocol that can only move one kind of attestation even though we have =
consensus on what the other one looks like.

It seems relatively simple to add EAT support (or promise to add EAT suppor=
t). Pretty sure I heard Henk agree to add it.

Thus, I am opposed to adoption with the current TPM-only draft. I=92d be OK=
 with the current draft and a promise to add EAT to it.

LL


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<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-1=
252">
<style type=3D"text/css" style=3D"display:none;"> P {margin-top:0;margin-bo=
ttom:0;} </style>
</head>
<body dir=3D"ltr">
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
<div>&gt; Remote TPM attestations are useful and necessary the short run, b=
ut are of very limited capability. I believe that &gt; EAT will replace TPM=
 attestations in the long run (maybe decades) because they are far more exp=
ressive. I know &gt; others believe that
 too.&nbsp;</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I would disagree with the statement of &quot;short run&quot; ... TPM i=
s practically the only existing standardised (hardware, software, firmware,=
 measurement - x86 only etc) hardware root of trust in common use, ie: prac=
tically all x86 machines,&nbsp; The attestation
 mechanisms provided are going to be around for a very long time.&nbsp; <br=
>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>From telco experience, 30 years ago we said SS7 would only be around i=
n the short term.<br>
</div>
<br>
<div>&gt; Thus, I am opposed to adoption with the current TPM-only draft. I=
=92d be OK with the current draft and a promise &gt; to add EAT to it.</div=
>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
Agree</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
Ian<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
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r: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, Helvetica, sans-serif;">
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;margin-top:0; margin-bottom=
:0">-- <br>
</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;margin-top:0; margin-bottom=
:0">Dr. Ian Oliver</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;margin-top:0; margin-bottom=
:0">Cybersecurity Research<br>
</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;margin-top:0; margin-bottom=
:0">Distinguished Member of Technical Staff</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;margin-top:0; margin-bottom=
:0">Nokia Bell Labs</p>
<p style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;margin-top:0; margin-bottom=
:0">&#43;358 50 483 6237<br>
</p>
</div>
<div>
<div id=3D"appendonsend"></div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size=
: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" data=
-ogsc=3D"" face=3D"Calibri, sans-serif" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> Laur=
ence Lundblade &lt;lgl@island-resort.com&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 11 November 2019 00:44<br>
<b>To:</b> Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) &lt;ncamwing@cisco.com&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Henk Birkholz &lt;henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de&gt;; rats@ietf=
.org &lt;rats@ietf.org&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang =
module draft</font>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"" style=3D"word-wrap:break-word; line-break:after-white-space=
"><br class=3D"">
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">On Nov 10, 2019, at 2:20 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com" class=3D"" style=3D"">ncamwing@cisc=
o.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"x_Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class=3D""><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica; font-size:=
12px; font-style:normal; font-variant-caps:normal; font-weight:normal; lett=
er-spacing:normal; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; =
white-space:normal; word-spacing:0px; text-decoration:none; float:none; dis=
play:inline!important">So,
 Laurence, are you still OK with the adoption of the current draft with a r=
ename for now?</span><br class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica; font-si=
ze:12px; font-style:normal; font-variant-caps:normal; font-weight:normal; l=
etter-spacing:normal; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:non=
e; white-space:normal; word-spacing:0px; text-decoration:none">
<span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica; font-size:12px; font-style=
:normal; font-variant-caps:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:norma=
l; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:norm=
al; word-spacing:0px; text-decoration:none; float:none; display:inline!impo=
rtant">Thanks,
 Nancy</span></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">I think the value add to the larger RATS effort of adding E=
AT support to this YANG protocol is really high. It a core thing to do that=
 helps bring together the two attestation worlds and make the TPM and EAT w=
ork here less like ships in the night.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Remote TPM attestations are useful and necessary the short =
run, but are of very limited capability. I believe that EAT will replace TP=
M attestations in the long run (maybe decades) because they are far more ex=
pressive. I know others believe that
 too.&nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">If we don=92t include EAT in the YANG mode it is sort of li=
ke defining HTTP to only convey HTML to the exclusion of PDF. We=92re defin=
ing an attestation protocol that can only move one kind of attestation even=
 though we have consensus on what the
 other one looks like.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">It seems relatively simple to add EAT support (or promise t=
o add EAT support). Pretty sure I heard Henk agree to add it.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Thus, I am opposed to adoption with the current TPM-only dr=
aft. I=92d be OK with the current draft and a promise to add EAT to it.</di=
v>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">LL</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_HE1PR0702MB375366C5F7FE5C497C35D73B8F740HE1PR0702MB3753_--


From nobody Mon Nov 11 01:57:53 2019
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To: "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" <ncamwing@cisco.com>, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
References: <8B173958-FC2A-4D1D-A81C-F324AB632CD7@cisco.com> <147F9159-6055-4E55-ABDC-43DFE3498BF1@island-resort.com> <ce5f8206-74dc-36bb-0093-a93045d5c67f@sit.fraunhofer.de> <0A7E3A4F-8534-4E98-BCB7-1454E07699F4@island-resort.com> <C3AE2645-49C8-4313-BCED-02FEB576B614@cisco.com> <1C8A1884-A37D-45E3-8C11-2FC5A083B245@island-resort.com> <ba12a686-1b34-21a3-388c-bbe01c01a408@sandelman.ca> <1DFA7D52-7294-4705-9407-C34F5BC82EA6@cisco.com>
From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2019 10:57:32 +0100
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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Hi all,

on one hand, we have to address the overlap between YANG and EAT 
information elements (statements & Claims) and how to deal with them 
(one obvious issue, for example, would be potential redundant 
information model content in two different drafts).

On the other hand, Laurence's original point was the payload of 
conveyance protocols used by RATS. Specializations of this topic are 
apparently:

* Web Tokens via YANG Interfaces, and
* YANG modeled data via other conveyance protocols (other than *CONF) 
that can transport Web Tokens.

There are examples of how YANG modeled data is used outside of *CONF 
protocols, for example MUD. We have to understand and agree about:

* this is possible on a technical level, and
* this is useful wrt to protocol scope, intent & semantics, I think.

This is one items of the 5 minutes slot I gave back. And I am happy to 
see this on the list.

Viele Grüße,

Henk

On 11.11.19 06:39, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) wrote:
> Hi Michael,
> See comments below:
> 
> ﻿On 11/10/19, 9:21 PM, "RATS on behalf of Michael Richardson" <rats-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:
> 
>      
>      
>      On 2019-11-11 6:44 a.m., Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>      >
>      >> On Nov 10, 2019, at 2:20 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)
>      >> <ncamwing@cisco.com <mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com>> wrote:
>      >>
>      >> So, Laurence, are you still OK with the adoption of the current draft
>      >> with a rename for now?
>      >> Thanks, Nancy
>      
>      You suggested the name:
>      
>      “Yang Module for TPM based Remote Attestations”
>      
>      But, I think that it should say instead, "Yang Interface to TPM 2.0"
> [NCW] That is a fair point.....my point is that it should be named to reflect core of description which is based around TPMs.
>      
>      >
>      > I think the value add to the larger RATS effort of adding EAT support
>      > to this YANG protocol is really high. It a core thing to do that helps
>      > bring together the two attestation worlds and make the TPM and EAT
>      > work here less like ships in the night.
>      
>      Can you explain what it would mean to add EAT support for a YANG module?
>      Maybe I'm daft here.
> [NCW]. Hmmm, I did NOT state that?  I think that was Laurence.  I view EAT as defining claims that use  JWT/CWT data structures.
> If there are claims (not format) that can be represented in Yang, then yes (and I think some can).  But the "general EAT", I'm not
> sure how those structures map to the TPM interfaces...but they certainly could be represented in YANG.
>      
>      The current document is essentially a YANG wrapper around the TPM 2.0
>      specification.  It's RPC, data in motion.
>      
>      While EAT is primary a JWT/CWT object, which is data-at-rest.
>      I think that you are looking for a way to express non-TCG defined
>      evidence containers.
> [NCW] I'm not sure why these object would be data-at-rest?  I view them as claims represented in specific structures, e.g. JWT/CWT
> But can be transported using any transport (e.g. TLS, et al)....similar to YANG?
> While it is true that the YANG draft also exposes the TPM interface, it also contains the claims albeit that are TPM specific.
> So perhaps you are referring to the interface aspect?
> 
> Best, Nancy
>      
>      
>      
>      
> 
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
> 


From nobody Mon Nov 11 02:11:31 2019
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To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, <rats@ietf.org>
References: <8B173958-FC2A-4D1D-A81C-F324AB632CD7@cisco.com> <147F9159-6055-4E55-ABDC-43DFE3498BF1@island-resort.com> <ce5f8206-74dc-36bb-0093-a93045d5c67f@sit.fraunhofer.de> <0A7E3A4F-8534-4E98-BCB7-1454E07699F4@island-resort.com> <C3AE2645-49C8-4313-BCED-02FEB576B614@cisco.com> <78de3311-e3d1-675a-f373-dec567d31dc6@sandelman.ca>
From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] clarity on JWT vs YANG-serialization: base64 vs base64url
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Hi Michael,

you are bringing up an issue that might look tiny, but I think you are 
right when you say: "it will catch at least one implementer".

And there is no easy fix for his, it seems? JWT is set, and YANG modeled 
data, such as RFC 7951, is also set. I am not sure that there is a thing 
such as "tolerant decoders" in practice, I am afraid.

In summary, as a last resort I'd agree with you that we need to "hit 
people over the head with this", extensively.

Viele Grüße,

Henk

On 11.11.19 01:21, Michael Richardson wrote:
> 
> When it comes to JWT encapsulation and YANG serialized JSON there are
> some potential conflicts that I want to bring up.  This is worth a 5
> minute discussion at a future meeting (perhaps premature for IETF106).
> 
> I've posted about this to other lists in the past two weeks, but I don't
> have the references, and I don't have enough Internet to look them up
> from here.
> 
> The specific conflict is that JWT, coming from the web space, uses
> base64URL encoding for binary objects (signatures..., etc.) while YANG,
> uses base64 encoding for binary objects.  This is a documentation
> annoyance, but it will catch at least one implementer.
> 
> Tolerant decoders might accept both (but neither Python or Ruby base64
> decoders are tolerant), but I don't think we can in general, demand that
> either is acceptable, so we have to say which to use each time.
> 
> We will just have to be clear going forward, and hit people over the
> head with this.  I can easily see YANG described data (signatures on
> Evidence) from a TPM device being base64 encoded, and then placed into a
> JWT container which is base64URL signed (for a Claim).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
> 


From nobody Mon Nov 11 03:37:12 2019
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From: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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On 2019-11-11 5:57 p.m., Henk Birkholz wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> on one hand, we have to address the overlap between YANG and EAT
> information elements (statements & Claims) and how to deal with them
> (one obvious issue, for example, would be potential redundant
> information model content in two different drafts).

Can you give me an example, but I'm not getting the issue.
I think that we will be the first to attempt to use JOSE to sign a JSON
serialized YANG object, resulting in a JWT.  Well, technically, it's
probably not a JWT, because we aren't going to base64url it and put
periods between the pieces, I think.  It's just JOSE, but I don't mind
if we call it a JWT.

draft-ietf-anima-constrained-voucher does CBOR serialized YANG which is
signed with COSE.


> On the other hand, Laurence's original point was the payload of
> conveyance protocols used by RATS. Specializations of this topic are
> apparently:
>
> * Web Tokens via YANG Interfaces, and
> * YANG modeled data via other conveyance protocols (other than *CONF)
> that can transport Web Tokens.
>
> There are examples of how YANG modeled data is used outside of *CONF
> protocols, for example MUD. We have to understand and agree about:
>
> * this is possible on a technical level, and
> * this is useful wrt to protocol scope, intent & semantics, I think.
>

MUD (RFC8520) does it, but so does ANIMA vouchers (RFC8366).
Again, data-at-REST described by YANG.

But the document in question does not seem to be data-at-rest, but RPC
access via *CONF protocols to TPM 2.0 objects, so I feel that you are
further muddying this thread by asking the above question.



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Subject: Re: [Rats] clarity on JWT vs YANG-serialization: base64 vs base64url
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Subject: Re: [Rats] clarity on JWT vs YANG-serialization: base64 vs base64url
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On 2019-11-11 6:11 p.m., Henk Birkholz wrote:
> Hi Michael,
>
> you are bringing up an issue that might look tiny, but I think you are
> right when you say: "it will catch at least one implementer".

I started a private discussion with Mike Jones and Tim Bray a few weeks
ago about a clarifying BCP about always using base64URL in JSON going
forward.=C2=A0 (I thought I had posted this to a list.)
Or... would an errata be enough?=C2=A0
That would put the current serialization of YANG (RFC7951) on the wrong
side of the tracks, which is unfortunate.

> And there is no easy fix for his, it seems? JWT is set, and YANG
> modeled data, such as RFC 7951, is also set. I am not sure that there
> is a thing such as "tolerant decoders" in practice, I am afraid.

It's not hard, there are only two characters:
=C2=A0 62 is either +(original) or -
=C2=A0 63 is either / (original) or _

I was rather surprised that common implementations didn't just accept
both already.
I stubbed my toe on this when processing Jim Schaad's excellent JOSE
reference vectors, and couldn't figure out why one of the public keys
was too short, until I learnt that the decoder I was using just stopped
when it got an invalid character, and I was using base64 rather than
base64url.


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From nobody Mon Nov 11 04:14:04 2019
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From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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Hi Michael,

please see in-line.

On 11.11.19 12:37, Michael Richardson wrote:
> 
> 
> On 2019-11-11 5:57 p.m., Henk Birkholz wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> on one hand, we have to address the overlap between YANG and EAT
>> information elements (statements & Claims) and how to deal with them
>> (one obvious issue, for example, would be potential redundant
>> information model content in two different drafts).
> 

Examples of the same information elements that are used in different 
data models via Claims or statements:

* EAT Time stamp / YANG clock info
* EAT Origination / YANG attestation key cert, or
* EAT Uptime / YANG tpm ticks

> Can you give me an example, but I'm not getting the issue.
> I think that we will be the first to attempt to use JOSE to sign a JSON
> serialized YANG object, resulting in a JWT.  Well, technically, it's
> probably not a JWT, because we aren't going to base64url it and put
> periods between the pieces, I think.  It's just JOSE, but I don't mind
> if we call it a JWT.

As far as I know, simply wrapping a "JSON serialized YANG object" in 
JOSE does not create a JWT. RFC 7951 is not based on RFC 7519. The 
Base64/Base64URL confusion is limited to value representation in JSON 
serialization, I think.

> 
> draft-ietf-anima-constrained-voucher does CBOR serialized YANG which is
> signed with COSE.

With CBOR serialization most things more straightforward and a tad bit 
simpler. I do not think that we have any issues on the binary side of 
things here. Or am I missing something obvious?

> 
> 
>> On the other hand, Laurence's original point was the payload of
>> conveyance protocols used by RATS. Specializations of this topic are
>> apparently:
>>
>> * Web Tokens via YANG Interfaces, and
>> * YANG modeled data via other conveyance protocols (other than *CONF)
>> that can transport Web Tokens.
>>
>> There are examples of how YANG modeled data is used outside of *CONF
>> protocols, for example MUD. We have to understand and agree about:
>>
>> * this is possible on a technical level, and
>> * this is useful wrt to protocol scope, intent & semantics, I think.
>>
> 
> MUD (RFC8520) does it, but so does ANIMA vouchers (RFC8366).
> Again, data-at-REST described by YANG.
> 
> But the document in question does not seem to be data-at-rest, but RPC
> access via *CONF protocols to TPM 2.0 objects, so I feel that you are
> further muddying this thread by asking the above question.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
> 


From nobody Mon Nov 11 04:19:07 2019
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To: Michael Richardson <mcr@sandelman.ca>, <rats@ietf.org>
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From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] clarity on JWT vs YANG-serialization: base64 vs base64url
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A single reply in-line.

On 11.11.19 12:48, Michael Richardson wrote:
> 
> 
> On 2019-11-11 6:11 p.m., Henk Birkholz wrote:
>> Hi Michael,
>>
>> you are bringing up an issue that might look tiny, but I think you are
>> right when you say: "it will catch at least one implementer".
> 
> I started a private discussion with Mike Jones and Tim Bray a few weeks
> ago about a clarifying BCP about always using base64URL in JSON going
> forward.  (I thought I had posted this to a list.)
> Or... would an errata be enough?
> That would put the current serialization of YANG (RFC7951) on the wrong
> side of the tracks, which is unfortunate.

This is what I meant by "not easy". Both are used already. The technical 
differences (see below) are not that big, I agree.

> 
>> And there is no easy fix for his, it seems? JWT is set, and YANG
>> modeled data, such as RFC 7951, is also set. I am not sure that there
>> is a thing such as "tolerant decoders" in practice, I am afraid.
> 
> It's not hard, there are only two characters:
>    62 is either +(original) or -
>    63 is either / (original) or _
> 
> I was rather surprised that common implementations didn't just accept
> both already.
> I stubbed my toe on this when processing Jim Schaad's excellent JOSE
> reference vectors, and couldn't figure out why one of the public keys
> was too short, until I learnt that the decoder I was using just stopped
> when it got an invalid character, and I was using base64 rather than
> base64url.
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
> 


From nobody Mon Nov 11 06:02:10 2019
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To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Michael Richardson <mcr@sandelman.ca>, rats@ietf.org
References: <8B173958-FC2A-4D1D-A81C-F324AB632CD7@cisco.com> <147F9159-6055-4E55-ABDC-43DFE3498BF1@island-resort.com> <ce5f8206-74dc-36bb-0093-a93045d5c67f@sit.fraunhofer.de> <0A7E3A4F-8534-4E98-BCB7-1454E07699F4@island-resort.com> <C3AE2645-49C8-4313-BCED-02FEB576B614@cisco.com> <78de3311-e3d1-675a-f373-dec567d31dc6@sandelman.ca> <d490a8ec-fb4e-bdca-b9c9-8730ae71a488@sit.fraunhofer.de> <086f1aeb-1401-2c95-1abf-bb104d0c13e5@sandelman.ca> <6c9f7880-e494-c2ac-7325-bdfa05eee712@sit.fraunhofer.de>
From: Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] clarity on JWT vs YANG-serialization: base64 vs base64url
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Having multiple ways to do one thing was never a good idea.  COSE would suffice.
Regarding the Base64-encoding of X5C objects, the rational was to be PEM compatible which also was a pretty bad idea since X5C simply isn't PEM compatible by a long shot.

Both are excellent examples of "design by committee".

Anders

On 2019-11-11 13:18, Henk Birkholz wrote:
> A single reply in-line.
> 
> On 11.11.19 12:48, Michael Richardson wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 2019-11-11 6:11 p.m., Henk Birkholz wrote:
>>> Hi Michael,
>>>
>>> you are bringing up an issue that might look tiny, but I think you are
>>> right when you say: "it will catch at least one implementer".
>>
>> I started a private discussion with Mike Jones and Tim Bray a few weeks
>> ago about a clarifying BCP about always using base64URL in JSON going
>> forward.  (I thought I had posted this to a list.)
>> Or... would an errata be enough?
>> That would put the current serialization of YANG (RFC7951) on the wrong
>> side of the tracks, which is unfortunate.
> 
> This is what I meant by "not easy". Both are used already. The technical
> differences (see below) are not that big, I agree.
> 
>>
>>> And there is no easy fix for his, it seems? JWT is set, and YANG
>>> modeled data, such as RFC 7951, is also set. I am not sure that there
>>> is a thing such as "tolerant decoders" in practice, I am afraid.
>>
>> It's not hard, there are only two characters:
>>     62 is either +(original) or -
>>     63 is either / (original) or _
>>
>> I was rather surprised that common implementations didn't just accept
>> both already.
>> I stubbed my toe on this when processing Jim Schaad's excellent JOSE
>> reference vectors, and couldn't figure out why one of the public keys
>> was too short, until I learnt that the decoder I was using just stopped
>> when it got an invalid character, and I was using base64 rather than
>> base64url.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> RATS mailing list
>> RATS@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
> 


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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
To: "Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" <ncamwing@cisco.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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From nobody Mon Nov 11 10:23:18 2019
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To: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, "Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" <ncamwing@cisco.com>
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From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2019 19:22:54 +0100
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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Laurence provided options as a basis for discussion a while ago.

He highlighted that CWT must be signed and illustrated pro & con wrt:

* null cipher,
* an "unsigned" flavor of CWT
* an "arbitrary signature"

It might be a valid assumotion that a single "tpm Claim" would have no 
significant added value, but multiple Claims in a message bundle might 
(although this might be a solution looking for a problem?).

Viele Grüße,

Henk

On 11.11.19 19:11, Smith, Ned wrote:
> Right. This implies the RATS “token” should support existing “binary” 
> formats as an encapsulation (signed by a second TA where the TPM is a 
> first TA) or as a conveyance (unsigned?) token. Possibly, the only added 
> value of the latter is a tag that identifies it as a TPM binary format?
> 
> On 11/10/19, 23:21 PM, "RATS on behalf of Oliver, Ian (Nokia - 
> FI/Espoo)" <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org> on 
> behalf of ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com 
> <mailto:ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>> wrote:
> 
>> Remote TPM attestations are useful and necessary the short run, but are of very limited capability. I believe that > EAT will replace TPM attestations  in the long run (maybe decades) because they are far more expressive. 
> I know > others believe that too.
> 
> I would disagree with the statement of "short run" ... TPM is 
> practically the only existing standardised (hardware, software, 
> firmware, measurement - x86 only etc) hardware root of trust in common 
> use, ie: practically all x86 machines,  The attestation mechanisms 
> provided are going to be around for a very long time.
> 
>  From telco experience, 30 years ago we said SS7 would only be around in 
> the short term.
> 
>> Thus, I am opposed to adoption with the current TPM-only draft. I’d be OK with the current draft and a promise > to add EAT to it.
> 
> Agree
> 
> Ian
> 
> -- 
> 
> Dr. Ian Oliver
> 
> Cybersecurity Research
> 
> Distinguished Member of Technical Staff
> 
> Nokia Bell Labs
> 
> +358 50 483 6237
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> *From:*Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
> *Sent:* 11 November 2019 00:44
> *To:* Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) <ncamwing@cisco.com>
> *Cc:* Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>; rats@ietf..org 
> <rats@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang 
> module draft
> 
>     On Nov 10, 2019, at 2:20 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)
>     <ncamwing@cisco.com <mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com>> wrote:
> 
>     So, Laurence, are you still OK with the adoption of the current
>     draft with a rename for now?
>     Thanks, Nancy
> 
> I think the value add to the larger RATS effort of adding EAT support to 
> this YANG protocol is really high. It a core thing to do that helps 
> bring together the two attestation worlds and make the TPM and EAT work 
> here less like ships in the night.
> 
> Remote TPM attestations are useful and necessary the short run, but are 
> of very limited capability. I believe that EAT will replace TPM 
> attestations in the long run (maybe decades) because they are far more 
> expressive. I know others believe that too.
> 
> If we don’t include EAT in the YANG mode it is sort of like defining 
> HTTP to only convey HTML to the exclusion of PDF. We’re defining an 
> attestation protocol that can only move one kind of attestation even 
> though we have consensus on what the other one looks like.
> 
> It seems relatively simple to add EAT support (or promise to add EAT 
> support). Pretty sure I heard Henk agree to add it.
> 
> Thus, I am opposed to adoption with the current TPM-only draft. I’d be 
> OK with the current draft and a promise to add EAT to it.
> 
> LL
> 


From nobody Mon Nov 11 10:36:00 2019
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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" <ncamwing@cisco.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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On Nov 10, 2019, at 9:20 PM, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> =
wrote:
>=20
>>=20
>> I think the value add to the larger RATS effort of adding EAT support
>> to this YANG protocol is really high. It a core thing to do that =
helps
>> bring together the two attestation worlds and make the TPM and EAT
>> work here less like ships in the night.
>=20
> Can you explain what it would mean to add EAT support for a YANG =
module?

The EAT is an opaque chunk of data in YANG. I=E2=80=99m not a YANG =
expert, but maybe like this:

Server                               Device
GetAttestationTypes =E2=80=94>
                                <- TYPE_TPM, TYPE_CWT /* bit flags */

GetAttestation(TYPE_CWT , nonce) =E2=80=94>=20
                                <=E2=80=94 CWT Token /* a full signed =
token */

I assume YANG can carry opaque binary data of moderate size.

The yang module information model would have an element for a nonce and =
for an opaque EAT. It would not describe any internals of the EAT. The =
information model for the EAT is separate in the EAT document.

LL

                                =20


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">On =
Nov 10, 2019, at 9:20 PM, Michael Richardson &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca" =
class=3D"">mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca</a>&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"Singleton"><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">I think the value add to the larger RATS effort of adding EAT =
support<br class=3D"">to this YANG protocol is really high. It a core =
thing to do that helps<br class=3D"">bring together the two attestation =
worlds and make the TPM and EAT<br class=3D"">work here less like ships =
in the night.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">Can you explain what it would mean to add EAT support for a =
YANG module?</span></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">The EAT is an opaque chunk of data in YANG. I=E2=80=99m not a =
YANG expert, but maybe like this:</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier" class=3D"">Server =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Device</font></div><div =
class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier" class=3D"">GetAttestationTypes =
=E2=80=94&gt;</font></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;- TYPE_TPM, =
TYPE_CWT /* bit flags */</font></div><div class=3D""><font =
face=3D"Courier" class=3D""><br class=3D""></font></div><div =
class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier" class=3D"">GetAttestation(</font><span =
style=3D"font-family: Courier;" =
class=3D"">TYPE_CWT</span>&nbsp;,&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-family: =
Courier;" class=3D"">nonce)&nbsp;=E2=80=94&gt;&nbsp;</span></div><div =
class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;=E2=80=94 CWT Token /* a full signed token =
*/</font></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></font></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">I assume YANG =
can carry opaque binary data of moderate size.</div></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The yang module =
information model would have an element for a nonce and for an opaque =
EAT. It would not describe any internals of the EAT. The information =
model for the EAT is separate in the EAT document.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">LL</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;</font></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
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Cc: rats@ietf.org
To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
References: <8B173958-FC2A-4D1D-A81C-F324AB632CD7@cisco.com> <147F9159-6055-4E55-ABDC-43DFE3498BF1@island-resort.com> <ce5f8206-74dc-36bb-0093-a93045d5c67f@sit.fraunhofer.de> <0A7E3A4F-8534-4E98-BCB7-1454E07699F4@island-resort.com> <C3AE2645-49C8-4313-BCED-02FEB576B614@cisco.com> <1C8A1884-A37D-45E3-8C11-2FC5A083B245@island-resort.com> <ba12a686-1b34-21a3-388c-bbe01c01a408@sandelman.ca> <4A83CDF5-D29F-4279-8B03-E9D23299EB53@island-resort.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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One more note on this. It seems wrong-headed to try express claims in =
YANG. To do that we=E2=80=99d need to invent a YANG signing standard =
(YOSE?). Seems like YANG should be thought of as RPC / conveyance / =
transport here, not as a way to format a signed attestation token.=20

LL


> On Nov 11, 2019, at 11:47 AM, Laurence Lundblade =
<lgl@island-resort.com> wrote:
>=20
> On Nov 10, 2019, at 9:20 PM, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca =
<mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>> wrote:
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> I think the value add to the larger RATS effort of adding EAT =
support
>>> to this YANG protocol is really high. It a core thing to do that =
helps
>>> bring together the two attestation worlds and make the TPM and EAT
>>> work here less like ships in the night.
>>=20
>> Can you explain what it would mean to add EAT support for a YANG =
module?
>=20
> The EAT is an opaque chunk of data in YANG. I=E2=80=99m not a YANG =
expert, but maybe like this:
>=20
> Server                               Device
> GetAttestationTypes =E2=80=94>
>                                 <- TYPE_TPM, TYPE_CWT /* bit flags */
>=20
> GetAttestation(TYPE_CWT , nonce) =E2=80=94>=20
>                                 <=E2=80=94 CWT Token /* a full signed =
token */
>=20
> I assume YANG can carry opaque binary data of moderate size.
>=20
> The yang module information model would have an element for a nonce =
and for an opaque EAT. It would not describe any internals of the EAT. =
The information model for the EAT is separate in the EAT document.
>=20
> LL
>=20
>                                 =20
>=20


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">One =
more note on this. It seems wrong-headed to try express claims in YANG. =
To do that we=E2=80=99d need to invent a YANG signing standard (YOSE?). =
Seems like YANG should be thought of as RPC / conveyance / transport =
here, not as a way to format a signed attestation token.&nbsp;<div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">LL</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Nov =
11, 2019, at 11:47 AM, Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" =
class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">On Nov 10, 2019, at =
9:20 PM, Michael Richardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca" =
class=3D"">mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"Singleton"><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">I think the value add to the larger RATS effort of adding EAT =
support<br class=3D"">to this YANG protocol is really high. It a core =
thing to do that helps<br class=3D"">bring together the two attestation =
worlds and make the TPM and EAT<br class=3D"">work here less like ships =
in the night.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br style=3D"caret-color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">Can you explain what it would mean to add EAT support for a =
YANG module?</span></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">The EAT is an opaque chunk of data in YANG. I=E2=80=99m not a =
YANG expert, but maybe like this:</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier" class=3D"">Server =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Device</font></div><div =
class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier" class=3D"">GetAttestationTypes =
=E2=80=94&gt;</font></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;- TYPE_TPM, =
TYPE_CWT /* bit flags */</font></div><div class=3D""><font =
face=3D"Courier" class=3D""><br class=3D""></font></div><div =
class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier" class=3D"">GetAttestation(</font><span =
style=3D"font-family: Courier;" =
class=3D"">TYPE_CWT</span>&nbsp;,&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-family: =
Courier;" class=3D"">nonce)&nbsp;=E2=80=94&gt;&nbsp;</span></div><div =
class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &lt;=E2=80=94 CWT Token /* a full signed token =
*/</font></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></font></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">I assume YANG =
can carry opaque binary data of moderate size.</div></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The yang module =
information model would have an element for a nonce and for an opaque =
EAT. It would not describe any internals of the EAT. The information =
model for the EAT is separate in the EAT document.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">LL</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;</font></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
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CC: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 00:56:36 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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From: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
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Message-ID: <11d5a25b-1dfe-013c-c677-ad1d17284436@sandelman.ca>
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 09:18:24 +0800
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/wUxzXr9Vyi3lNfaMtvy6kLSdRds>
Subject: [Rats] my hack attempt at a RATS icon
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Some of you may know of my obsession (fetish?) with icons for things.
I strongly think that good images help us do good marketing. 
(6tisch made a nice logo for instance, and I think it has helped)

For a presentation I concocted the attached icon for remote attestation.
It's in a pull request to the iot-dir at
https://github.com/iot-dir/slides/pull/3
URLs:
https://github.com/mcr/slides/blob/master/icons/rats.svg
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/mcr/slides/master/icons/rats.png

And attached in SVG, assuming it gets through the list.

The RAT is looking through a telescope at some "code".  Maybe that's
more about the RIV use case than some other use cases, but


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--------------89B8059F98A5CC9261401DF0--


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From: Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>
To: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, "Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>,  "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" <ncamwing@cisco.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/eVCpMYdSL-jeW0Z-zXz_84q6q2g>
Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
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Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2019 20:16:58 -0800
In-Reply-To: <3C967A22-DBB0-4EA7-923D-B423920EB9BD@intel.com>
Cc: =?utf-8?B?IlNjaMO2bnfDpGxkZXIsIErDvHJnZW4i?= <J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>,  Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
To: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
References: <8B173958-FC2A-4D1D-A81C-F324AB632CD7@cisco.com> <147F9159-6055-4E55-ABDC-43DFE3498BF1@island-resort.com> <ce5f8206-74dc-36bb-0093-a93045d5c67f@sit.fraunhofer.de> <0A7E3A4F-8534-4E98-BCB7-1454E07699F4@island-resort.com> <C3AE2645-49C8-4313-BCED-02FEB576B614@cisco.com> <1C8A1884-A37D-45E3-8C11-2FC5A083B245@island-resort.com> <ba12a686-1b34-21a3-388c-bbe01c01a408@sandelman.ca> <4A83CDF5-D29F-4279-8B03-E9D23299EB53@island-resort.com> <0C6940B0-E93F-4274-9D00-DEC4119B8F69@island-resort.com> <3310947D-EA31-4107-8FF0-B917A027C955@intel.com> <20191111213249.4p7z2ovkvqy2u5go@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <3C967A22-DBB0-4EA7-923D-B423920EB9BD@intel.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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	charset=utf-8

What is most important for me is that the YANG document allow for EAT =
tokens as that seems like an important upgrade path / alternative given =
that EATs are much more capable.

But flip it around. In RATS maybe it should be possible for TPM-based =
attestations to go anywhere an EAT goes. You should be able move TPM =
attestations around by HTTP, or in TLS extension points or maybe even as =
an IMAP extension just like you can with EAT. To some degree FIDO has =
done it. It has a pluggable attestation architecture that allows several =
formats including TPM-based, Android SafetyNet (which is not Android key =
store) and some FIDO-specific schemes that are more EAT like.

That seems like it takes you to a clear demarcation between:
Self-securing signed attestation token
Token conveyance protocol

This seems very good in concept. We often separate like this in protocol =
design.

Then one way to look at the RATS work is in three:
EAT Attestation Token
TPM Token (that can be carried by HTTP and almost any conceivable =
protocol extension)
A very specific YANG-based conveyance protocol for routers because =
that=E2=80=99s how routers like it and it is important for the RATS work =
group constituency.

Maybe we=E2=80=99ll find another specific conveyance protocol we=E2=80=99l=
l want to address, but in general we don=E2=80=99t have to. All the web =
app, IoS app and Android app frameworks will be OK just like they are =
today for things like Android KeyStore.

If you look at it this way, 1) then EAT is fine as, 2) we need to define =
a new "TPM Token" format that is sort of an alternative to EAT, and 3) =
the YANG module has to be tweaked so it is a carrier of EATs and TPM =
Tokens. (I=E2=80=99m probably glossing over some of the complexity with =
YANG and TPMs).

TPM Token would not be a general claims carrier like EAT. TPM HW is =
super locked down and limited and TPM Token would just do what TPMs can =
do. Probably the =E2=80=9Cclaims" amount to a few PCRs. Since the TPM =
signing format is fixed, the TPM Token signing format would be fixed. =
TPM Token is sort of a serialization of the output of a TPM. (It can=E2=80=
=99t be directly COSE as TPM=E2=80=99s can=E2=80=99t do RFC 8152 section =
4.4, the COSE-specific creation of the to-be-signed bytes, when signing; =
probably similarly not JOSE). Since TPM Token is simple, will never =
change and won=E2=80=99t have extensions we don=E2=80=99t need all the =
weight of CDDL or YANG or such and can maybe go directly to JSON, XML or =
CBOR.

LL




> On Nov 11, 2019, at 4:56 PM, Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com> wrote:
>=20
> YANG I already being used to describe attestation flows and =
attestation related data. So the reason why is it is already deployed.
>=20
> YANG has been used as an IM language but more commonly as a DML.=20
>=20
> When trying to talk about attestation "Claims" it helps if we're =
speaking the same language.=20
>=20
> =EF=BB=BFOn 11/11/19, 13:33 PM, "RATS on behalf of Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder=
, J=C3=BCrgen" <rats-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of =
J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
>=20
>    Hi,
>=20
>    we commonly call YANG a data modeling language and not an =
information
>    modeling language. Can someone explain why you want to use YANG?
>=20
>    /js
>=20
>    On Mon, Nov 11, 2019 at 09:27:09PM +0000, Smith, Ned wrote:
>> You=E2=80=99re saying YANG fills a gap that is similar to what =
OpenAPI/RAML fills?
>>=20
>> It could be doing more than this as well, such as defining claims (as =
was suggested in a previous email by I think Michael). If RATS =
determined that the way to specify a Claim in the information model was =
via CDDL (only) and there is a YANG expression of it, then that implies =
a CDDL to YANG mapping is required. (Is that reasonable?).
>>=20
>> Or RATS says that it is reasonable to use either/both CDDL and YANG =
for Claims expressions. This suggests there are CDDL and YANG mappings =
to whatever are the target DMLs (JOSE, COSE, DER, something else?). Does =
YANG support DML mappings to JOSE, COSE and DER or just to YANG? Does =
CDDL support mappings to DER and YANG (something else)?
>>=20
>> Ideally CDDL can be mapped to other information modelling languages =
(e.g. YANG) so that only one normative expression needs to be canonized. =
However, that implies extra work on behalf of the YANG drafts to come up =
with the CDDL equivalent. Maybe that is unnecessary extra work for =
consistency sake? That would force the conversations around whether =
=E2=80=98time=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98ticks=E2=80=99 are the same =
information model expression (for example).
>>=20
>> -Ned
>>=20
>> On 11/11/19, 11:52 AM, "RATS on behalf of Laurence Lundblade" =
<rats-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of =
lgl@island-resort.com<mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>> wrote:
>>=20
>> One more note on this. It seems wrong-headed to try express claims in =
YANG. To do that we=E2=80=99d need to invent a YANG signing standard =
(YOSE?). Seems like YANG should be thought of as RPC / conveyance / =
transport here, not as a way to format a signed attestation token.
>>=20
>> LL
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> On Nov 11, 2019, at 11:47 AM, Laurence Lundblade =
<lgl@island-resort.com<mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>> wrote:
>>=20
>> On Nov 10, 2019, at 9:20 PM, Michael Richardson =
<mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca<mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>> wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>> I think the value add to the larger RATS effort of adding EAT support
>> to this YANG protocol is really high. It a core thing to do that =
helps
>> bring together the two attestation worlds and make the TPM and EAT
>> work here less like ships in the night.
>>=20
>> Can you explain what it would mean to add EAT support for a YANG =
module?
>>=20
>> The EAT is an opaque chunk of data in YANG. I=E2=80=99m not a YANG =
expert, but maybe like this:
>>=20
>> Server                               Device
>> GetAttestationTypes =E2=80=94>
>>                                <- TYPE_TPM, TYPE_CWT /* bit flags */
>>=20
>> GetAttestation(TYPE_CWT , nonce) =E2=80=94>
>>                                <=E2=80=94 CWT Token /* a full signed =
token */
>>=20
>> I assume YANG can carry opaque binary data of moderate size.
>>=20
>> The yang module information model would have an element for a nonce =
and for an opaque EAT. It would not describe any internals of the EAT. =
The information model for the EAT is separate in the EAT document.
>>=20
>> LL
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> RATS mailing list
>> RATS@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>=20
>=20
>    --=20
>    Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
>    Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | =
Germany
>    Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>
>    _______________________________________________
>    RATS mailing list
>    RATS@ietf.org
>    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>=20
>=20


--Apple-Mail=_AA06634F-59CB-4FF0-B882-631A4442EFD4
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">What is most important for me is that the YANG document allow =
for EAT tokens as that seems like an important upgrade path / =
alternative given that EATs are much more capable.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">But flip it around. In =
RATS maybe it should be possible for TPM-based attestations to go =
anywhere an EAT goes. You should be able move TPM attestations around by =
HTTP, or in TLS extension points or maybe even as an IMAP extension just =
like you can with EAT. To some degree FIDO has done it. It has a =
pluggable attestation architecture that allows several formats including =
TPM-based, Android SafetyNet (which is not Android key store) and some =
FIDO-specific schemes that are more EAT like.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">That seems like it takes you to a clear =
demarcation between:</div><div class=3D""><ul class=3D"MailOutline"><li =
class=3D"">Self-securing signed attestation token</li><li class=3D"">Token=
 conveyance protocol</li></ul><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">This seems very good in concept. We often separate like this =
in protocol design.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><div =
class=3D"">Then one way to look at the RATS work is in three:</div><div =
class=3D""><ol class=3D"MailOutline"><li class=3D"">EAT Attestation =
Token</li><li class=3D"">TPM Token (that can be carried by HTTP and =
almost any conceivable protocol extension)</li><li class=3D"">A very =
specific YANG-based conveyance protocol for routers because that=E2=80=99s=
 how routers like it and it is important for the RATS work group =
constituency.</li></ol><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><div =
class=3D"">Maybe we=E2=80=99ll find another specific conveyance protocol =
we=E2=80=99ll want to address, but in general we don=E2=80=99t have to. =
All the web app, IoS app and Android app frameworks will be OK just like =
they are today for things like Android KeyStore.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If you look at it this way, 1) then EAT =
is fine as, 2) we need to define a new "TPM Token" format that is sort =
of an alternative to EAT, and 3) the YANG module has to be tweaked so it =
is a carrier of EATs and TPM Tokens. (I=E2=80=99m probably glossing over =
some of the complexity with YANG and TPMs).</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">TPM Token would not be a general claims =
carrier like EAT. TPM HW is super locked down and limited and TPM Token =
would just do what TPMs can do. Probably the =E2=80=9Cclaims" amount to =
a few PCRs. Since the TPM signing format is fixed, the TPM Token signing =
format would be fixed. TPM Token is sort of a serialization of the =
output of a TPM. (It can=E2=80=99t be directly COSE as TPM=E2=80=99s =
can=E2=80=99t do RFC 8152 section 4.4, the COSE-specific creation of the =
to-be-signed bytes, when signing; probably similarly not JOSE). Since =
TPM Token is simple, will never change and won=E2=80=99t have extensions =
we don=E2=80=99t need all the weight of CDDL or YANG or such and can =
maybe go directly to JSON, XML or CBOR.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Nov 11, 2019, at 4:56 PM, Smith, Ned &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com" class=3D"">ned.smith@intel.com</a>&gt;=
 wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">YANG I already being used to describe attestation flows and =
attestation related data. So the reason why is it is already =
deployed.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">YANG has been used as an IM =
language but more commonly as a DML. <br class=3D""><br class=3D"">When =
trying to talk about attestation "Claims" it helps if we're speaking the =
same language. <br class=3D""><br class=3D"">=EF=BB=BFOn 11/11/19, 13:33 =
PM, "RATS on behalf of Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder, J=C3=BCrgen" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org" class=3D"">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>=
 on behalf of <a href=3D"mailto:J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de" =
class=3D"">J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de</a>&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Hi,<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;we commonly call YANG a data modeling =
language and not an information<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;modeling language. Can someone explain why you want to =
use YANG?<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;/js<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;On Mon, Nov 11, 2019 at =
09:27:09PM +0000, Smith, Ned wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"">You=E2=80=99re saying YANG fills a gap that is =
similar to what OpenAPI/RAML fills?<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">It =
could be doing more than this as well, such as defining claims (as was =
suggested in a previous email by I think Michael). If RATS determined =
that the way to specify a Claim in the information model was via CDDL =
(only) and there is a YANG expression of it, then that implies a CDDL to =
YANG mapping is required. (Is that reasonable?).<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Or RATS says that it is reasonable to use either/both CDDL =
and YANG for Claims expressions. This suggests there are CDDL and YANG =
mappings to whatever are the target DMLs (JOSE, COSE, DER, something =
else?). Does YANG support DML mappings to JOSE, COSE and DER or just to =
YANG? Does CDDL support mappings to DER and YANG (something else)?<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Ideally CDDL can be mapped to other =
information modelling languages (e.g. YANG) so that only one normative =
expression needs to be canonized. However, that implies extra work on =
behalf of the YANG drafts to come up with the CDDL equivalent. Maybe =
that is unnecessary extra work for consistency sake? That would force =
the conversations around whether =E2=80=98time=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98ticks=
=E2=80=99 are the same information model expression (for example).<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">-Ned<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">On 11/11/19, =
11:52 AM, "RATS on behalf of Laurence Lundblade" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of <a =
href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" =
class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" =
class=3D"">mailto:lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">One more note on this. It seems wrong-headed =
to try express claims in YANG. To do that we=E2=80=99d need to invent a =
YANG signing standard (YOSE?). Seems like YANG should be thought of as =
RPC / conveyance / transport here, not as a way to format a signed =
attestation token.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">LL<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">On Nov 11, 2019, at 11:47 AM, =
Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" =
class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" =
class=3D"">mailto:lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">On Nov 10, 2019, at 9:20 PM, Michael =
Richardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca" =
class=3D"">mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca</a>&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca" =
class=3D"">mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I think the value add to the =
larger RATS effort of adding EAT support<br class=3D"">to this YANG =
protocol is really high. It a core thing to do that helps<br =
class=3D"">bring together the two attestation worlds and make the TPM =
and EAT<br class=3D"">work here less like ships in the night.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Can you explain what it would mean to add EAT =
support for a YANG module?<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">The EAT is an =
opaque chunk of data in YANG. I=E2=80=99m not a YANG expert, but maybe =
like this:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Server =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Device<br class=3D"">GetAttestationTypes =
=E2=80=94&gt;<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&lt;- TYPE_TPM, TYPE_CWT /* bit =
flags */<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">GetAttestation(TYPE_CWT , nonce) =
=E2=80=94&gt;<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&lt;=E2=80=94 CWT Token /* a full =
signed token */<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I assume YANG can carry =
opaque binary data of moderate size.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">The =
yang module information model would have an element for a nonce and for =
an opaque EAT. It would not describe any internals of the EAT. The =
information model for the EAT is separate in the EAT document.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">LL<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">RATS mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" class=3D"">RATS@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D""><br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;-- <br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Juergen =
Schoenwaelder =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Jacobs =
University Bremen gGmbH<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Phone: +49 421 =
200 3587 &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Campus Ring 1 | =
28759 Bremen | Germany<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Fax: =
&nbsp;&nbsp;+49 421 200 3103 =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&lt;<a =
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To: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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From nobody Mon Nov 11 21:57:34 2019
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Cc: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, "Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>, "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" <ncamwing@cisco.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
To: Dave Thaler <dthaler=40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
References: <8B173958-FC2A-4D1D-A81C-F324AB632CD7@cisco.com> <147F9159-6055-4E55-ABDC-43DFE3498BF1@island-resort.com> <ce5f8206-74dc-36bb-0093-a93045d5c67f@sit.fraunhofer.de> <0A7E3A4F-8534-4E98-BCB7-1454E07699F4@island-resort.com> <C3AE2645-49C8-4313-BCED-02FEB576B614@cisco.com> <1C8A1884-A37D-45E3-8C11-2FC5A083B245@island-resort.com> <HE1PR0702MB375366C5F7FE5C497C35D73B8F740@HE1PR0702MB3753.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <7106C9D3-8ED1-419E-81F8-4CDA799BEDAE@intel.com> <MWHPR21MB07844F61BEFAE03F9E7DD290A3770@MWHPR21MB0784.namprd21.prod.outlook.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/iSGkeoGW0EB8i9F1kqZvjJW89GQ>
Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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--Apple-Mail=_CBCAC51A-46E6-4C73-AE4A-0E46F3125EC2
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	charset=utf-8

Clarifying questions and comments.

Where did this table come from?

Is a firewall here a typical IP-level thing that filter Internet =
traffic? (If so, why is that relevant?). Or is it memory protection =
between the attestation host (e.g. RoT) and the other parts of the =
system? Something else?

What is privacy here? Is it the untrackability of attestations because =
they use ECDAA, shared keys or such? That is privacy in the web browser =
/ GDPR sense.

One of them is not like the other: Firmware. It typically isn=E2=80=99t =
isolated and doesn=E2=80=99t have a CPU.

There are other isolating execution environment approaches such as =
separate CPUs and virtualization, particularly Microsoft VBS.

LL


> On Nov 11, 2019, at 5:43 PM, Dave Thaler =
<dthaler=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>=20
>                         Requirements?
>          +--------------+---------------+---------++---------------
>          |  RoT         | Host Firewall | Privacy ||   Solution  =20
>          |  Type        |   Enabled     | Needed  ||    Pieces   =20
>          +--------------+---------------+---------++---------------
>       1  |  SGX         | No            | No      ||
>       2  |  SGX         | No            | Yes     ||
>       3  |  SGX         | Yes           | No      ||
>       4  |  SGX         | Yes           | Yes     ||
>       5  |  TrustZone   | No            | No      ||
>       6  |  TrustZone   | No            | Yes     ||
>       7  |  TrustZone   | Yes           | No      ||
>       8  |  TrustZone   | Yes           | Yes     ||
>       9  |  TPM         | No            | No      || =
draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module-01
>      10  |  TPM         | No            | Yes     ||
>      11  |  TPM         | Yes           | No      ||
>      12  |  TPM         | Yes           | Yes     ||
>      13  |SecureElement | No            | No      ||
>      14  |SecureElement | No            | Yes     ||
>      15  |SecureElement | Yes           | No      ||
>      16  |SecureElement | Yes           | Yes     ||
>      17  | Firmware     | No            | No      ||
>      18  | Firmware     | No            | Yes     ||
>      19  | Firmware     | Yes           | No      ||
>      20  | Firmware     | Yes           | Yes     ||


--Apple-Mail=_CBCAC51A-46E6-4C73-AE4A-0E46F3125EC2
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Clarifying questions and comments.<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Where did this table come from?<br =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Is a =
firewall here a typical IP-level thing that filter Internet traffic? (If =
so, why is that relevant?). Or is it memory protection between the =
attestation host (e.g. RoT) and the other parts of the system? Something =
else?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">What is =
privacy here? Is it the untrackability of attestations because they use =
ECDAA, shared keys or such? That is privacy in the web browser / GDPR =
sense.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">One of =
them is not like the other: Firmware. It typically isn=E2=80=99t =
isolated and doesn=E2=80=99t have a CPU.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">There are other isolating execution =
environment approaches such as separate CPUs and virtualization, =
particularly Microsoft VBS.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div=
 class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Nov =
11, 2019, at 5:43 PM, Dave Thaler &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dthaler=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org" =
class=3D"">dthaler=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
; Requirements?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></font></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
+--------------+---------------+---------++---------------<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></font></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);" class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; =
RoT&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | Host Firewall | =
Privacy ||&nbsp;&nbsp; Solution&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></font></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);" class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp; =
Type&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Enabled&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | Needed&nbsp; ||&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Pieces&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></font></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);" class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;+--------=
------+---------------+---------++---------------<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></font></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);" class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 1&nbsp; |&nbsp; =
SGX&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></font></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);" class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2&nbsp; |&nbsp; =
SGX&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></font></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);" class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 3&nbsp; |&nbsp; =
SGX&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></font></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);" class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 4&nbsp; |&nbsp; =
SGX&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></font></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);" class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 5&nbsp; |&nbsp; =
TrustZone&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></font></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);" class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 6&nbsp; |&nbsp; =
TrustZone&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></font></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);" class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 7&nbsp; |&nbsp; =
TrustZone&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></font></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);" class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 8&nbsp; |&nbsp; =
TrustZone&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></font></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);" class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 9&nbsp; |&nbsp; =
TPM&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; || =
draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module-01<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></font></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);" class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 10&nbsp; |&nbsp; =
TPM&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></font></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);" class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 11&nbsp; |&nbsp; =
TPM&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></font></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);" class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;12&nbsp; |&nbsp; =
TPM&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></font></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);" class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 13&nbsp; |SecureElement | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></font></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);" class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 14&nbsp; |SecureElement | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></font></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);" class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 15&nbsp; |SecureElement | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></font></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);" class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 16&nbsp; |SecureElement | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;||<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></font></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);" class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 17&nbsp; | =
Firmware&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></font></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);" class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 18&nbsp; | =
Firmware&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></font></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);" class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 19&nbsp; | =
Firmware&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></font></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; =
white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);" class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 20&nbsp; | =
Firmware&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
||</font></span></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></div></body></html>=

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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/cIB339JifjSe4OyM8UsVoydWLno>
Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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From nobody Tue Nov 12 00:21:21 2019
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To: Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
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From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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Hi Dave,
hi all,

is it correct that the intent of tokens - in general - is that they have 
a life-span and are somehow like... certificates, but with a smaller 
life-cycle? The claims defined by the Web Token RFCs are indicating as 
such, I'd assume.

Having said that, the features we use are the object / tagged map 
structure, the continuous list of defined Claims & corresponding 
registry, and the imperative guidance how to use {C|J}OSE. In 
combination with the fact that all Web Token Claims are optional, we can 
use these features for purposes other than the original intent of tokens 
and that is okay. Simply calling them tokens, though, might be confusing 
to readers that already use tokens?

In conveyance protocols for RATS I would like to see at least three 
things defined and differentiated:

* the Interaction Models the protocols use, most prominent, 
challenge/response, time-based, and subscription,
* the Message (Content) that is conveyed, most prominent Evidence, 
Endorsements, Reference Values (aka Known Good Values), and Attestation 
Results, and
* the Roles between which Messages are conveyed via protocols, most 
prominent .

This is applicable to EAT (specific claim set serializations) and YANG 
(specific statements serializations, APIs, and conveyance protocols) or 
others - and unless there are really good reasons against this, I'd 
consider these definitions/categorizations a MUST.

After the discussions we had, I am a bit at a loss how to deal with "the 
same information elements used in different message types and content" 
or "how to not use the same term as something else" (aka the Information 
Model), I have to admit. I do not see a viable solution at the moment.

Viele Grüße,

Henk


On 12.11.19 05:19, Dave Thaler wrote:
> Ned Smith wrote:
> 
>  > So far the group has used the term "EAT" to refer to both the 
> information model and data serialization expressions.
> 
> I would rather see the term EAT (and any other terms ending in Token, 
> like JWT and CWT) only be used to refer to
> 
> data serialization expressions, not the information model.
> 
>  > When extending information model to YANG or some other serialization 
> (e.g. ASN.1). Given the possibility for an IM
> 
>  > expression to be realized by different serializations, what term 
> should we give to the IM description?
> 
> That’s a fine question, and I don’t have any strong preference right 
> now, other than to not use the same term as something else.
> 
> Offhand, my preference would be to not define a term, and just use 
> Evidence and Attestation Result as the terms for
> 
> format-independent discussion.  I think it is useful to distinguish 
> between Evidence vs Attestation Results in many cases.
> 
> And if you need to refer to both, then we can always use both together, 
> such as “Evidence and Attestation Results”.
> 
>  > The term "Claim" has been used extensively. Do we want to agree to 
> use "claim" to refer to anything that is an IM
>  > expression in RATS and "Token" for any serialization (realization) 
> even if it isn't a JWT or CWT?
> 
> I would say no. To me, a claim is one particular piece of information, 
> where a “Token” or whatever else has a set of claims.
> 
> Dave
> 


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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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On 2019-11-12 3:52 a.m., Laurence Lundblade wrote:
> One more note on this. It seems wrong-headed to try express claims in
> YANG. To do that we’d need to invent a YANG signing standard (YOSE?).
> Seems like YANG should be thought of as RPC / conveyance / transport
> here, not as a way to format a signed attestation token.

YANG is an information model (think ASN.1). 
It is for humans and for code generators, protocol inspectors, etc, it
is never bits on the wire.
It needs to be expressed somehow (XML, JSON, CBOR), which is akin to
BER/DER.
XML, JSON and CBOR all have signature standards (maybe more than one).
A specific claim could well have a complex set of information that it
conveys and that could be expressed in YANG, but I find it difficult to
imagine such a thing.




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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module
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On 2019-11-12 5:27 a.m., Smith, Ned wrote:
>
> You=E2=80=99re saying YANG fills a gap that is similar to what OpenAPI/=
RAML fills?
>

I don't know what those things are.
I might say it was similar to CORBA, but I'd be dating myself and I
never really knew CORBA very well.

> Ideally CDDL can be mapped to other information modelling languages
> (e.g. YANG) so that only one normative expression needs to be
> canonized. However, that implies extra work on behalf of the YANG
> drafts to come up with the CDDL equivalent. Maybe that is unnecessary
> extra work for consistency sake? That would force the conversations
> around whether =E2=80=98time=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98ticks=E2=80=99 are t=
he same information model
> expression (for example).
>

CDDL could be used to explain how the YANG serialization to CBOR or JSON
worked.
But, CDDL is also not a bits-on-the-wire thing, it's also probably human
and code generator.
(Carsten says that this is not exclusive the case, anymore, but I think
having Turing complete
information modeling languages is a bad thing, and might lead to Daleks
Invasions and Cybermen Kings)

I would expect that an RFC or other industry document that detailed a
series of claims might use CDDL to describe the contents of the data
that made up the details of the claim.
But, again, for the code generators (whether human or machine)



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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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Hi Laurence,

maybe I lack the required background knowledge about YANG here. My 
question is the following: Is it in-scope for a YANG modules (which 
typically have a well-defined semantic scope for each statement) to 
convey opaque EATs via a single statement. Or is it necessary to create 
YANG statements for each well-defined EAT Claim?

Viele Grüße,

Henk

On 12.11.19 05:16, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
> What is most important for me is that the YANG document allow for EAT 
> tokens as that seems like an important upgrade path / alternative given 
> that EATs are much more capable.
> 
> But flip it around. In RATS maybe it should be possible for TPM-based 
> attestations to go anywhere an EAT goes. You should be able move TPM 
> attestations around by HTTP, or in TLS extension points or maybe even as 
> an IMAP extension just like you can with EAT. To some degree FIDO has 
> done it. It has a pluggable attestation architecture that allows several 
> formats including TPM-based, Android SafetyNet (which is not Android key 
> store) and some FIDO-specific schemes that are more EAT like.
> 
> That seems like it takes you to a clear demarcation between:
> 
>   * Self-securing signed attestation token
>   * Token conveyance protocol
> 
> 
> This seems very good in concept. We often separate like this in protocol 
> design.
> 
> Then one way to look at the RATS work is in three:
> 
>  1. EAT Attestation Token
>  2. TPM Token (that can be carried by HTTP and almost any conceivable
>     protocol extension)
>  3. A very specific YANG-based conveyance protocol for routers because
>     that’s how routers like it and it is important for the RATS work
>     group constituency.
> 
> 
> Maybe we’ll find another specific conveyance protocol we’ll want to 
> address, but in general we don’t have to. All the web app, IoS app and 
> Android app frameworks will be OK just like they are today for things 
> like Android KeyStore.
> 
> If you look at it this way, 1) then EAT is fine as, 2) we need to define 
> a new "TPM Token" format that is sort of an alternative to EAT, and 3) 
> the YANG module has to be tweaked so it is a carrier of EATs and TPM 
> Tokens. (I’m probably glossing over some of the complexity with YANG and 
> TPMs).
> 
> TPM Token would not be a general claims carrier like EAT. TPM HW is 
> super locked down and limited and TPM Token would just do what TPMs can 
> do. Probably the “claims" amount to a few PCRs. Since the TPM signing 
> format is fixed, the TPM Token signing format would be fixed. TPM Token 
> is sort of a serialization of the output of a TPM. (It can’t be directly 
> COSE as TPM’s can’t do RFC 8152 section 4.4, the COSE-specific creation 
> of the to-be-signed bytes, when signing; probably similarly not JOSE). 
> Since TPM Token is simple, will never change and won’t have extensions 
> we don’t need all the weight of CDDL or YANG or such and can maybe go 
> directly to JSON, XML or CBOR.
> 
> LL
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Nov 11, 2019, at 4:56 PM, Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com 
>> <mailto:ned.smith@intel.com>> wrote:
>>
>> YANG I already being used to describe attestation flows and 
>> attestation related data. So the reason why is it is already deployed.
>>
>> YANG has been used as an IM language but more commonly as a DML.
>>
>> When trying to talk about attestation "Claims" it helps if we're 
>> speaking the same language.
>>
>> ﻿On 11/11/19, 13:33 PM, "RATS on behalf of Schönwälder, Jürgen" 
>> <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of 
>> J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de 
>> <mailto:J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>> wrote:
>>
>>    Hi,
>>
>>    we commonly call YANG a data modeling language and not an information
>>    modeling language. Can someone explain why you want to use YANG?
>>
>>    /js
>>
>>    On Mon, Nov 11, 2019 at 09:27:09PM +0000, Smith, Ned wrote:
>>> You’re saying YANG fills a gap that is similar to what OpenAPI/RAML 
>>> fills?
>>>
>>> It could be doing more than this as well, such as defining claims (as 
>>> was suggested in a previous email by I think Michael). If RATS 
>>> determined that the way to specify a Claim in the information model 
>>> was via CDDL (only) and there is a YANG expression of it, then that 
>>> implies a CDDL to YANG mapping is required. (Is that reasonable?).
>>>
>>> Or RATS says that it is reasonable to use either/both CDDL and YANG 
>>> for Claims expressions. This suggests there are CDDL and YANG 
>>> mappings to whatever are the target DMLs (JOSE, COSE, DER, something 
>>> else?). Does YANG support DML mappings to JOSE, COSE and DER or just 
>>> to YANG? Does CDDL support mappings to DER and YANG (something else)?
>>>
>>> Ideally CDDL can be mapped to other information modelling languages 
>>> (e.g. YANG) so that only one normative expression needs to be 
>>> canonized. However, that implies extra work on behalf of the YANG 
>>> drafts to come up with the CDDL equivalent. Maybe that is unnecessary 
>>> extra work for consistency sake? That would force the conversations 
>>> around whether ‘time’ and ‘ticks’ are the same information model 
>>> expression (for example).
>>>
>>> -Ned
>>>
>>> On 11/11/19, 11:52 AM, "RATS on behalf of Laurence Lundblade" 
>>> <rats-bounces@ietf.org 
>>> <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org><mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org> on 
>>> behalf of lgl@island-resort.com 
>>> <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com><mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> One more note on this. It seems wrong-headed to try express claims in 
>>> YANG. To do that we’d need to invent a YANG signing standard (YOSE?). 
>>> Seems like YANG should be thought of as RPC / conveyance / transport 
>>> here, not as a way to format a signed attestation token.
>>>
>>> LL
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Nov 11, 2019, at 11:47 AM, Laurence Lundblade 
>>> <lgl@island-resort.com 
>>> <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com><mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Nov 10, 2019, at 9:20 PM, Michael Richardson 
>>> <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca 
>>> <mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca><mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> I think the value add to the larger RATS effort of adding EAT support
>>> to this YANG protocol is really high. It a core thing to do that helps
>>> bring together the two attestation worlds and make the TPM and EAT
>>> work here less like ships in the night.
>>>
>>> Can you explain what it would mean to add EAT support for a YANG module?
>>>
>>> The EAT is an opaque chunk of data in YANG. I’m not a YANG expert, 
>>> but maybe like this:
>>>
>>> Server                               Device
>>> GetAttestationTypes —>
>>>                                <- TYPE_TPM, TYPE_CWT /* bit flags */
>>>
>>> GetAttestation(TYPE_CWT , nonce) —>
>>>                                <— CWT Token /* a full signed token */
>>>
>>> I assume YANG can carry opaque binary data of moderate size.
>>>
>>> The yang module information model would have an element for a nonce 
>>> and for an opaque EAT. It would not describe any internals of the 
>>> EAT. The information model for the EAT is separate in the EAT document.
>>>
>>> LL
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> RATS mailing list
>>> RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>>
>>
>>    --
>>    Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
>>    Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
>>    Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>
>>    _______________________________________________
>>    RATS mailing list
>> RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>>
>>
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
> 


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To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
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Thread-Topic: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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From nobody Tue Nov 12 01:22:26 2019
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From: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
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Subject: [Rats] What's to EAT?
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On 2019-11-12 12:19 p.m., Dave Thaler wrote:
>
> Ned Smith wrote:
>
> > So far the group has used the term "EAT" to refer to both the
> information model and data serialization expressions.
>
>  
>
> I would rather see the term EAT (and any other terms ending in Token,
> like JWT and CWT) only be used to refer to
>
> data serialization expressions, not the information model.
>
I concur.
I'm completely perplexed by that thread about "Call for adoption", so
I've changed the subject line, and started a new thread. 


> > When extending information model to YANG or some other serialization
> (e.g. ASN.1). Given the possibility for an IM
>
> > expression to be realized by different serializations, what term
> should we give to the IM description?
>
>  
>
> That’s a fine question, and I don’t have any strong preference right
> now, other than to not use the same term as something else.
>
> Offhand, my preference would be to not define a term, and just use
> Evidence and Attestation Result as the terms for
>
> format-independent discussion.  I think it is useful to distinguish
> between Evidence vs Attestation Results in many cases.
>
> And if you need to refer to both, then we can always use both
> together, such as “Evidence and Attestation Results”.
>

+1

>  
>
> > The term "Claim" has been used extensively. Do we want to agree to
> use "claim" to refer to anything that is an IM
> > expression in RATS and "Token" for any serialization (realization)
> even if it isn't a JWT or CWT? 
>
>  
>
> I would say no. To me, a claim is one particular piece of information,
> where a “Token” or whatever else has a set of claims.
>
>  
>

I mostly agree.

I think that it's okay to say, "The uptime claim is forwarded to the
Flu-Flu Processor" rather than saying "The Token containing the uptime
claim is forwarded to the Flu-Flu Processor"


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From: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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On 2019-11-12 4:59 p.m., Schönwälder, Jürgen wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 04:22:47PM +0800, Michael Richardson wrote:
>>
>> On 2019-11-12 3:52 a.m., Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>>> One more note on this. It seems wrong-headed to try express claims in
>>> YANG. To do that we’d need to invent a YANG signing standard (YOSE?).
>>> Seems like YANG should be thought of as RPC / conveyance / transport
>>> here, not as a way to format a signed attestation token.
>> YANG is an information model (think ASN.1).
> YANG people believe YANG is used to define data models.

Yes, I mis-spoke.

>
>> It is for humans and for code generators, protocol inspectors, etc, it
>> is never bits on the wire.
>> It needs to be expressed somehow (XML, JSON, CBOR), which is akin to
>> BER/DER.
> This is what YANG people call an encoding (or representation) of
> instance data (that conforms to a YANG schema). YANG today supports
> XML and JSON, CBOR is in the making (but for a long time).

Well, yes, I'm using it on anima-constrained-voucher, and yes, it has
been a long time, but we are mostly done, so I think we can say that
CBOR is included.



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From: Michael Richardson <mcr@sandelman.ca>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module
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On 2019-11-11 8:13 p.m., Henk Birkholz wrote:
> Hi Michael,
>
> please see in-line.
>
> On 11.11.19 12:37, Michael Richardson wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 2019-11-11 5:57 p.m., Henk Birkholz wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> on one hand, we have to address the overlap between YANG and EAT
>>> information elements (statements & Claims) and how to deal with them
>>> (one obvious issue, for example, would be potential redundant
>>> information model content in two different drafts).
>>
>
> Examples of the same information elements that are used in different
> data models via Claims or statements:
>
> * EAT Time stamp / YANG clock info
> * EAT Origination / YANG attestation key cert, or
> * EAT Uptime / YANG tpm ticks

Those aren't EATs, those are attributes of claims that an EAT could inclu=
de.
If you are saying that we could write a YANG module describing those
claims, and that they could be used to describe both claims of an EAT,
but also results from a TPM 1.2/2.0 call, then I understand finally.=C2=A0=
=C2=A0
>
>> Can you give me an example, but I'm not getting the issue.
>> I think that we will be the first to attempt to use JOSE to sign a JSO=
N
>> serialized YANG object, resulting in a JWT.=C2=A0 Well, technically, i=
t's
>> probably not a JWT, because we aren't going to base64url it and put
>> periods between the pieces, I think.=C2=A0 It's just JOSE, but I don't=
 mind
>> if we call it a JWT.
>
> As far as I know, simply wrapping a "JSON serialized YANG object" in
> JOSE does not create a JWT.=20

A JWT is a triple of three base64URL encoded objects, one of which is a
JOSE format signature.
We want COSE and JOSE, not CWT and JWT, I think.

>
>> draft-ietf-anima-constrained-voucher does CBOR serialized YANG which i=
s
>> signed with COSE.
>
> With CBOR serialization most things more straightforward and a tad bit
> simpler. I do not think that we have any issues on the binary side of
> things here. Or am I missing something obvious?

In CBOR, binary is not encoded in any special way, so no issues, agreed.
If that argues for doing CBOR-only, I personally do not mind, but the WG
has been pretty clear about wanting both.



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From nobody Tue Nov 12 02:11:53 2019
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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On 12.11.19 10:44, Michael Richardson wrote:
>>>> on one hand, we have to address the overlap between YANG and EAT
>>>> information elements (statements & Claims) and how to deal with them
>>>> (one obvious issue, for example, would be potential redundant
>>>> information model content in two different drafts).
>>>
>>
>> Examples of the same information elements that are used in different
>> data models via Claims or statements:
>>
>> * EAT Time stamp / YANG clock info
>> * EAT Origination / YANG attestation key cert, or
>> * EAT Uptime / YANG tpm ticks
> 
> Those aren't EATs, those are attributes of claims that an EAT could include.
> If you are saying that we could write a YANG module describing those
> claims, and that they could be used to describe both claims of an EAT,
> but also results from a TPM 1.2/2.0 call, then I understand finally.

Yes, that is basically a way to phrase the question, I think.

Specialized questions are: do we need to do that? Do we want to do that? 
Is it technically okay to instead convey opaque EAT blobs via a YANG 
statement?

And yes, those are not EATs :-) I was referring to the information 
elements and their serialization (statements & Claims) above.

>>
>>> Can you give me an example, but I'm not getting the issue.
>>> I think that we will be the first to attempt to use JOSE to sign a JSON
>>> serialized YANG object, resulting in a JWT.  Well, technically, it's
>>> probably not a JWT, because we aren't going to base64url it and put
>>> periods between the pieces, I think.  It's just JOSE, but I don't mind
>>> if we call it a JWT.


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Thread-Topic: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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> On Nov 12, 2019, at 12:22 AM, Michael Richardson =
<mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:
>=20
> On 2019-11-12 3:52 a.m., Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>> One more note on this. It seems wrong-headed to try express claims in
>> YANG. To do that we=E2=80=99d need to invent a YANG signing standard =
(YOSE?).
>> Seems like YANG should be thought of as RPC / conveyance / transport
>> here, not as a way to format a signed attestation token.
>=20
> YANG is an information model (think ASN.1).=20
> It is for humans and for code generators, protocol inspectors, etc, it
> is never bits on the wire.
> It needs to be expressed somehow (XML, JSON, CBOR), which is akin to
> BER/DER.
> XML, JSON and CBOR all have signature standards (maybe more than one).
> A specific claim could well have a complex set of information that it
> conveys and that could be expressed in YANG, but I find it difficult =
to
> imagine such a thing.
>=20

Got that one totally wrong. I even knew everything you describe about =
YANG.

I still think it is better if we just stick to EAT / CWT / JWT claims =
described with CDDL as the way we define claims in RATS, except for a =
few TPM-specific claims.=20

LL=


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Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 10:35:44 -0800
In-Reply-To: <a72c6bb0-0f96-3d25-0faf-d5a1fe92a2c8@sit.fraunhofer.de>
Cc: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, =?utf-8?B?IlNjaMO2bnfDpGxkZXIsIErDvHJnZW4i?= <J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
References: <8B173958-FC2A-4D1D-A81C-F324AB632CD7@cisco.com> <147F9159-6055-4E55-ABDC-43DFE3498BF1@island-resort.com> <ce5f8206-74dc-36bb-0093-a93045d5c67f@sit.fraunhofer.de> <0A7E3A4F-8534-4E98-BCB7-1454E07699F4@island-resort.com> <C3AE2645-49C8-4313-BCED-02FEB576B614@cisco.com> <1C8A1884-A37D-45E3-8C11-2FC5A083B245@island-resort.com> <ba12a686-1b34-21a3-388c-bbe01c01a408@sandelman.ca> <4A83CDF5-D29F-4279-8B03-E9D23299EB53@island-resort.com> <0C6940B0-E93F-4274-9D00-DEC4119B8F69@island-resort.com> <3310947D-EA31-4107-8FF0-B917A027C955@intel.com> <20191111213249.4p7z2ovkvqy2u5go@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <3C967A22-DBB0-4EA7-923D-B423920EB9BD@intel.com> <0AACCF7B-36A9-4AF9-B18A-BF18DC35986E@island-resort.com> <a72c6bb0-0f96-3d25-0faf-d5a1fe92a2c8@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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An EAT would show up as a single statement in the RATS YANG module. The =
EAT would be opaque in the RATS YANG module. The RATS work group would =
not author any YANG to describe the claims described in the EAT =
document.=20

The attester side implementation of this would:
Have code that creates CWT/COSE/CBOR formatted EAT tokens. This would =
probably be new code. Could also be JWT/JOSE/JSON.
Not need a TPM
Probably re use some existing libraries (JSON or XML or such) to =
implement what is described in the RATS YANG Module. That would not be =
anything to do with claims, so this part would exist primarily transport =
the opaque EAT.
I imagine if you were to use X.509 certificates with YANG, it would be =
really similar. The EAT is analogous to the X.509 certificate. There =
would be no YANG text authored to describe the internals of the X.509 =
certificate.

What I=E2=80=99ve described so far is what I want in the RATS YANG =
Module in order for it to be adopted.  The next paragraphs are about the =
idea of the TPM Token.



One way to describe my proposal is to split the current RATS YANG Module =
document into two.

A new TPM Token document would be created. It would describe a list of =
claims and a signature over those claims. This would be compatible with =
TPM signing. It would essentially be a serialization of the output of a =
TPM.

The RATS YANG Module document would have a large amount of its text =
replaced with a single statement that is for the transfer of either an =
EAT or a TPM Token.

LL





My thought is that EATs are opaque to the transport / conveyance =
protocol and that the YANG module should just describe a transport pr

> On Nov 12, 2019, at 12:28 AM, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Laurence,
>=20
> maybe I lack the required background knowledge about YANG here. My =
question is the following: Is it in-scope for a YANG modules (which =
typically have a well-defined semantic scope for each statement) to =
convey opaque EATs via a single statement. Or is it necessary to create =
YANG statements for each well-defined EAT Claim?
>=20
> Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>=20
> Henk
>=20
> On 12.11.19 05:16, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>> What is most important for me is that the YANG document allow for EAT =
tokens as that seems like an important upgrade path / alternative given =
that EATs are much more capable.
>> But flip it around. In RATS maybe it should be possible for TPM-based =
attestations to go anywhere an EAT goes. You should be able move TPM =
attestations around by HTTP, or in TLS extension points or maybe even as =
an IMAP extension just like you can with EAT. To some degree FIDO has =
done it. It has a pluggable attestation architecture that allows several =
formats including TPM-based, Android SafetyNet (which is not Android key =
store) and some FIDO-specific schemes that are more EAT like.
>> That seems like it takes you to a clear demarcation between:
>>  * Self-securing signed attestation token
>>  * Token conveyance protocol
>> This seems very good in concept. We often separate like this in =
protocol design.
>> Then one way to look at the RATS work is in three:
>> 1. EAT Attestation Token
>> 2. TPM Token (that can be carried by HTTP and almost any conceivable
>>    protocol extension)
>> 3. A very specific YANG-based conveyance protocol for routers because
>>    that=E2=80=99s how routers like it and it is important for the =
RATS work
>>    group constituency.
>> Maybe we=E2=80=99ll find another specific conveyance protocol we=E2=80=99=
ll want to address, but in general we don=E2=80=99t have to. All the web =
app, IoS app and Android app frameworks will be OK just like they are =
today for things like Android KeyStore.
>> If you look at it this way, 1) then EAT is fine as, 2) we need to =
define a new "TPM Token" format that is sort of an alternative to EAT, =
and 3) the YANG module has to be tweaked so it is a carrier of EATs and =
TPM Tokens. (I=E2=80=99m probably glossing over some of the complexity =
with YANG and TPMs).
>> TPM Token would not be a general claims carrier like EAT. TPM HW is =
super locked down and limited and TPM Token would just do what TPMs can =
do. Probably the =E2=80=9Cclaims" amount to a few PCRs. Since the TPM =
signing format is fixed, the TPM Token signing format would be fixed. =
TPM Token is sort of a serialization of the output of a TPM. (It can=E2=80=
=99t be directly COSE as TPM=E2=80=99s can=E2=80=99t do RFC 8152 section =
4.4, the COSE-specific creation of the to-be-signed bytes, when signing; =
probably similarly not JOSE). Since TPM Token is simple, will never =
change and won=E2=80=99t have extensions we don=E2=80=99t need all the =
weight of CDDL or YANG or such and can maybe go directly to JSON, XML or =
CBOR.
>> LL
>>> On Nov 11, 2019, at 4:56 PM, Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com =
<mailto:ned.smith@intel.com>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> YANG I already being used to describe attestation flows and =
attestation related data. So the reason why is it is already deployed.
>>>=20
>>> YANG has been used as an IM language but more commonly as a DML.
>>>=20
>>> When trying to talk about attestation "Claims" it helps if we're =
speaking the same language.
>>>=20
>>> =EF=BB=BFOn 11/11/19, 13:33 PM, "RATS on behalf of Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4ld=
er, J=C3=BCrgen" <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org> =
on behalf of J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de =
<mailto:J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>    Hi,
>>>=20
>>>    we commonly call YANG a data modeling language and not an =
information
>>>    modeling language. Can someone explain why you want to use YANG?
>>>=20
>>>    /js
>>>=20
>>>    On Mon, Nov 11, 2019 at 09:27:09PM +0000, Smith, Ned wrote:
>>>> You=E2=80=99re saying YANG fills a gap that is similar to what =
OpenAPI/RAML fills?
>>>>=20
>>>> It could be doing more than this as well, such as defining claims =
(as was suggested in a previous email by I think Michael). If RATS =
determined that the way to specify a Claim in the information model was =
via CDDL (only) and there is a YANG expression of it, then that implies =
a CDDL to YANG mapping is required. (Is that reasonable?).
>>>>=20
>>>> Or RATS says that it is reasonable to use either/both CDDL and YANG =
for Claims expressions. This suggests there are CDDL and YANG mappings =
to whatever are the target DMLs (JOSE, COSE, DER, something else?). Does =
YANG support DML mappings to JOSE, COSE and DER or just to YANG? Does =
CDDL support mappings to DER and YANG (something else)?
>>>>=20
>>>> Ideally CDDL can be mapped to other information modelling languages =
(e.g. YANG) so that only one normative expression needs to be canonized. =
However, that implies extra work on behalf of the YANG drafts to come up =
with the CDDL equivalent. Maybe that is unnecessary extra work for =
consistency sake? That would force the conversations around whether =
=E2=80=98time=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98ticks=E2=80=99 are the same =
information model expression (for example).
>>>>=20
>>>> -Ned
>>>>=20
>>>> On 11/11/19, 11:52 AM, "RATS on behalf of Laurence Lundblade" =
<rats-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org><mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf =
of lgl@island-resort.com =
<mailto:lgl@island-resort.com><mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> One more note on this. It seems wrong-headed to try express claims =
in YANG. To do that we=E2=80=99d need to invent a YANG signing standard =
(YOSE?). Seems like YANG should be thought of as RPC / conveyance / =
transport here, not as a way to format a signed attestation token.
>>>>=20
>>>> LL
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> On Nov 11, 2019, at 11:47 AM, Laurence Lundblade =
<lgl@island-resort.com =
<mailto:lgl@island-resort.com><mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> On Nov 10, 2019, at 9:20 PM, Michael Richardson =
<mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca =
<mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca><mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> I think the value add to the larger RATS effort of adding EAT =
support
>>>> to this YANG protocol is really high. It a core thing to do that =
helps
>>>> bring together the two attestation worlds and make the TPM and EAT
>>>> work here less like ships in the night.
>>>>=20
>>>> Can you explain what it would mean to add EAT support for a YANG =
module?
>>>>=20
>>>> The EAT is an opaque chunk of data in YANG. I=E2=80=99m not a YANG =
expert, but maybe like this:
>>>>=20
>>>> Server                               Device
>>>> GetAttestationTypes =E2=80=94>
>>>>                                <- TYPE_TPM, TYPE_CWT /* bit flags =
*/
>>>>=20
>>>> GetAttestation(TYPE_CWT , nonce) =E2=80=94>
>>>>                                <=E2=80=94 CWT Token /* a full =
signed token */
>>>>=20
>>>> I assume YANG can carry opaque binary data of moderate size.
>>>>=20
>>>> The yang module information model would have an element for a nonce =
and for an opaque EAT. It would not describe any internals of the EAT. =
The information model for the EAT is separate in the EAT document.
>>>>=20
>>>> LL
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> RATS mailing list
>>>> RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>    --
>>>    Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
>>>    Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | =
Germany
>>>    Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         =
<https://www.jacobs-university.de/>
>>>    _______________________________________________
>>>    RATS mailing list
>>> RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>>>=20
>>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> RATS mailing list
>> RATS@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>=20


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">An EAT would show up as a single statement in the RATS YANG =
module. The EAT would be opaque in the RATS YANG module. The RATS work =
group would not author any YANG to describe the claims described in the =
EAT document.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">The attester side implementation of this would:</div><div =
class=3D""><ul class=3D""><li class=3D"">Have code that creates =
CWT/COSE/CBOR formatted EAT tokens. This would probably be new code. =
Could also be JWT/JOSE/JSON.</li><li class=3D"">Not need a TPM</li><li =
class=3D"">Probably re use some existing libraries (JSON or XML or such) =
to implement what is described in the RATS YANG Module. That would not =
be anything to do with claims, so this part would exist primarily =
transport the opaque EAT.</li></ul></div><div class=3D"">I imagine if =
you were to use X.509 certificates with YANG, it would be really =
similar. The EAT is analogous to the X.509 certificate. There would be =
no YANG text authored to describe the internals of the X.509 =
certificate.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">What I=E2=80=99ve described so far is what I want in the RATS =
YANG Module in order for it to be adopted. &nbsp;The next paragraphs are =
about the idea of the TPM Token.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">One way to describe my proposal is to =
split the current RATS YANG Module document into two.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">A new TPM Token document =
would be created. It would describe a list of claims and a signature =
over those claims. This would be compatible with TPM signing. It would =
essentially be a serialization of the output of a TPM.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The RATS YANG Module =
document would have a large amount of its text replaced with a single =
statement that is for the transfer of either an EAT or a TPM =
Token.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div>My =
thought is that EATs are opaque to the transport / conveyance protocol =
and that the YANG module should just describe a transport pr<br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Nov 12, 2019, at 12:28 AM, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">Hi =
Laurence,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">maybe I lack the required =
background knowledge about YANG here. My question is the following: Is =
it in-scope for a YANG modules (which typically have a well-defined =
semantic scope for each statement) to convey opaque EATs via a single =
statement. Or is it necessary to create YANG statements for each =
well-defined EAT Claim?<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe=
,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Henk<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">On =
12.11.19 05:16, Laurence Lundblade wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"">What is most important for me is that the YANG =
document allow for EAT tokens as that seems like an important upgrade =
path / alternative given that EATs are much more capable.<br =
class=3D"">But flip it around. In RATS maybe it should be possible for =
TPM-based attestations to go anywhere an EAT goes. You should be able =
move TPM attestations around by HTTP, or in TLS extension points or =
maybe even as an IMAP extension just like you can with EAT. To some =
degree FIDO has done it. It has a pluggable attestation architecture =
that allows several formats including TPM-based, Android SafetyNet =
(which is not Android key store) and some FIDO-specific schemes that are =
more EAT like.<br class=3D"">That seems like it takes you to a clear =
demarcation between:<br class=3D""> &nbsp;* Self-securing signed =
attestation token<br class=3D""> &nbsp;* Token conveyance protocol<br =
class=3D"">This seems very good in concept. We often separate like this =
in protocol design.<br class=3D"">Then one way to look at the RATS work =
is in three:<br class=3D""> 1. EAT Attestation Token<br class=3D""> 2. =
TPM Token (that can be carried by HTTP and almost any conceivable<br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;protocol extension)<br class=3D""> 3. A =
very specific YANG-based conveyance protocol for routers because<br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;that=E2=80=99s how routers like it and it =
is important for the RATS work<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;group =
constituency.<br class=3D"">Maybe we=E2=80=99ll find another specific =
conveyance protocol we=E2=80=99ll want to address, but in general we =
don=E2=80=99t have to. All the web app, IoS app and Android app =
frameworks will be OK just like they are today for things like Android =
KeyStore.<br class=3D"">If you look at it this way, 1) then EAT is fine =
as, 2) we need to define a new "TPM Token" format that is sort of an =
alternative to EAT, and 3) the YANG module has to be tweaked so it is a =
carrier of EATs and TPM Tokens. (I=E2=80=99m probably glossing over some =
of the complexity with YANG and TPMs).<br class=3D"">TPM Token would not =
be a general claims carrier like EAT. TPM HW is super locked down and =
limited and TPM Token would just do what TPMs can do. Probably the =
=E2=80=9Cclaims" amount to a few PCRs. Since the TPM signing format is =
fixed, the TPM Token signing format would be fixed. TPM Token is sort of =
a serialization of the output of a TPM. (It can=E2=80=99t be directly =
COSE as TPM=E2=80=99s can=E2=80=99t do RFC 8152 section 4.4, the =
COSE-specific creation of the to-be-signed bytes, when signing; probably =
similarly not JOSE). Since TPM Token is simple, will never change and =
won=E2=80=99t have extensions we don=E2=80=99t need all the weight of =
CDDL or YANG or such and can maybe go directly to JSON, XML or CBOR.<br =
class=3D"">LL<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">On Nov =
11, 2019, at 4:56 PM, Smith, Ned &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com" class=3D"">ned.smith@intel.com</a> =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com" =
class=3D"">mailto:ned.smith@intel.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><br=
 class=3D"">YANG I already being used to describe attestation flows and =
attestation related data. So the reason why is it is already =
deployed.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">YANG has been used as an IM =
language but more commonly as a DML.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">When =
trying to talk about attestation "Claims" it helps if we're speaking the =
same language.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">=EF=BB=BFOn 11/11/19, 13:33 =
PM, "RATS on behalf of Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder, J=C3=BCrgen" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org" class=3D"">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of <a =
href=3D"mailto:J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de" =
class=3D"">J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de" =
class=3D"">mailto:J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de</a>&gt;&gt; =
wrote:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Hi,<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;we commonly call YANG a data =
modeling language and not an information<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;modeling language. Can someone explain why =
you want to use YANG?<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;/js<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;On Mon, Nov 11, 2019 at 09:27:09PM +0000, =
Smith, Ned wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">You=E2=80=99re saying YANG fills a gap that is similar to =
what OpenAPI/RAML fills?<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">It could be doing =
more than this as well, such as defining claims (as was suggested in a =
previous email by I think Michael). If RATS determined that the way to =
specify a Claim in the information model was via CDDL (only) and there =
is a YANG expression of it, then that implies a CDDL to YANG mapping is =
required. (Is that reasonable?).<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Or RATS =
says that it is reasonable to use either/both CDDL and YANG for Claims =
expressions. This suggests there are CDDL and YANG mappings to whatever =
are the target DMLs (JOSE, COSE, DER, something else?). Does YANG =
support DML mappings to JOSE, COSE and DER or just to YANG? Does CDDL =
support mappings to DER and YANG (something else)?<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Ideally CDDL can be mapped to other information modelling =
languages (e.g. YANG) so that only one normative expression needs to be =
canonized. However, that implies extra work on behalf of the YANG drafts =
to come up with the CDDL equivalent. Maybe that is unnecessary extra =
work for consistency sake? That would force the conversations around =
whether =E2=80=98time=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98ticks=E2=80=99 are the same =
information model expression (for example).<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">-Ned<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">On 11/11/19, 11:52 AM, =
"RATS on behalf of Laurence Lundblade" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org" class=3D"">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of <a =
href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</a>=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" =
class=3D"">mailto:lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt;&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" =
class=3D"">mailto:lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">One more note on this. It seems wrong-headed =
to try express claims in YANG. To do that we=E2=80=99d need to invent a =
YANG signing standard (YOSE?). Seems like YANG should be thought of as =
RPC / conveyance / transport here, not as a way to format a signed =
attestation token.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">LL<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">On Nov 11, 2019, at 11:47 AM, =
Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" =
class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" =
class=3D"">mailto:lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt;&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" =
class=3D"">mailto:lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">On Nov 10, 2019, at 9:20 PM, Michael =
Richardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca" =
class=3D"">mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca" =
class=3D"">mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca</a>&gt;&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca" =
class=3D"">mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I think the value add to the =
larger RATS effort of adding EAT support<br class=3D"">to this YANG =
protocol is really high. It a core thing to do that helps<br =
class=3D"">bring together the two attestation worlds and make the TPM =
and EAT<br class=3D"">work here less like ships in the night.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Can you explain what it would mean to add EAT =
support for a YANG module?<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">The EAT is an =
opaque chunk of data in YANG. I=E2=80=99m not a YANG expert, but maybe =
like this:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Server =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Device<br class=3D"">GetAttestationTypes =
=E2=80=94&gt;<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&lt;- TYPE_TPM, =
TYPE_CWT /* bit flags */<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">GetAttestation(TYPE_CWT , nonce) =E2=80=94&gt;<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&lt;=E2=80=94 CWT Token =
/* a full signed token */<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I assume YANG can =
carry opaque binary data of moderate size.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">The yang module information model would have an element for a =
nonce and for an opaque EAT. It would not describe any internals of the =
EAT. The information model for the EAT is separate in the EAT =
document.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">LL<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">RATS mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" class=3D"">RATS@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" class=3D"">mailto:RATS@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats</a><br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;--<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Juergen =
Schoenwaelder =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Jacobs =
University Bremen gGmbH<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Phone: +49 421 =
200 3587 &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Campus Ring 1 | =
28759 Bremen | Germany<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Fax: =
&nbsp;&nbsp;+49 421 200 3103 =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&lt;<a =
href=3D"https://www.jacobs-university.de/" =
class=3D"">https://www.jacobs-university.de/</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;_____________________________________________=
__<br class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;RATS mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" class=3D"">RATS@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" class=3D"">mailto:RATS@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats</a><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></blockquote>_______________________________________________<br=
 class=3D"">RATS mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" class=3D"">RATS@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></body></html>=

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From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
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Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 10:58:02 -0800
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Cc: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] What's to EAT?
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> On Nov 12, 2019, at 1:08 AM, Michael Richardson =
<mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:
>=20
>=20
> On 2019-11-12 12:19 p.m., Dave Thaler wrote:
>>=20
>> Ned Smith wrote:
>>=20
>>> So far the group has used the term "EAT" to refer to both the
>> information model and data serialization expressions.
>>=20
>> =20
>>=20
>> I would rather see the term EAT (and any other terms ending in Token,
>> like JWT and CWT) only be used to refer to
>>=20
>> data serialization expressions, not the information model.
>>=20
> I concur.

I disagree with that.

I don=E2=80=99t think we want one information model for all of RATS.=20

EAT has an information model and data model for what it expresses.=20

The YANG Module has an information and data model for what it expresses.

The primary purpose for use of information models (plural!) is so we can =
described things like claims once and then have a largely mechanical way =
to serialize them in different ways, CBOR and JSON.

Note that CWT and JWT don=E2=80=99t use the information model concept. =
They are mostly two independently defined and loosely coordinated data =
models. We are trying to do different by having a common information =
model that covers both. One might argue that CWT and JWT should have =
done what we are doing in EAT.

LL


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
Nov 12, 2019, at 1:08 AM, Michael Richardson &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca" =
class=3D"">mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">On 2019-11-12 12:19 p.m., Dave =
Thaler wrote:</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Ned Smith wrote:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"">So far the group has used the term "EAT" to =
refer to both the<br class=3D""></blockquote>information model and data =
serialization expressions.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">&nbsp;<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">I would rather see the term EAT (and any other =
terms ending in Token,<br class=3D"">like JWT and CWT) only be used to =
refer to<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">data serialization expressions, =
not the information model.<br class=3D""><br class=3D""></blockquote><span=
 style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">I =
concur.</span></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div class=3D"">I =
disagree with that.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">I don=E2=80=99t think we want one information model for all =
of RATS.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">EAT has an information model and data model for what it =
expresses.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">The YANG Module has an information and data model for what it =
expresses.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The =
primary purpose for use of information models (plural!) is so we can =
described things like claims once and then have a largely mechanical way =
to serialize them in different ways, CBOR and JSON.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Note that CWT and JWT =
don=E2=80=99t use the information model concept. They are mostly two =
independently defined and loosely coordinated data models. We are trying =
to do different by having a common information model that covers both. =
One might argue that CWT and JWT should have done what we are doing in =
EAT.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: Dave Thaler <dthaler=40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, "Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" <ncamwing@cisco.com>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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As a network equipment vendor, TEEP environments and EAT format work =
highlight interesting futures.  And I support these works on that basis.

=20

On the other hand, TPMs are embedded today in routers.  And they are =
integrated to existing network operations applications.  However we have =
no standardized based industry management model.  And therefore today we =
see no applications which span equipment vendor types.

=20

So the TPM based YANG has immediate applicability, and should be =
adopted. =20

=20

Eric

=20

From: RATS, November 11, 2019 8:43 PM



As far as I can understand from draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module-01 =
and

draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-01, they break down the =
use case

space as follows:

=20

                        Requirements?

         +--------------+---------------+---------++---------------

         |  RoT         | Host Firewall | Privacy ||   Solution   =20

         |  Type        |   Enabled     | Needed  ||    Pieces    =20

         +--------------+---------------+---------++---------------

      1  |  SGX         | No            | No      ||

      2  |  SGX         | No            | Yes     ||

      3  |  SGX         | Yes           | No      ||

      4  |  SGX         | Yes           | Yes     ||

      5  |  TrustZone   | No            | No      ||

      6  |  TrustZone   | No            | Yes     ||

      7  |  TrustZone   | Yes           | No      ||

      8  |  TrustZone   | Yes           | Yes     ||

      9  |  TPM         | No            | No      || =
draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module-01

     10  |  TPM         | No            | Yes     ||

     11  |  TPM         | Yes           | No      ||

     12  |  TPM         | Yes           | Yes     ||

     13  |SecureElement | No            | No      ||

     14  |SecureElement | No            | Yes     ||

     15  |SecureElement | Yes           | No      ||

     16  |SecureElement | Yes           | Yes     ||

     17  | Firmware     | No            | No      ||

     18  | Firmware     | No            | Yes     ||

     19  | Firmware     | Yes           | No      ||

     20  | Firmware     | Yes           | Yes     ||

     ... |   ...        |               |         ||

=20

And draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-01 further scopes =
itself down

by only being applicable to cases with "embedded" apps only =3D Yes, and =
where

the security policy is only an Exact match against reference values =3D =
Yes.

I believe that the yang draft doesn't have those two restrictions, from =
my reading.

However, the point is that both drafts are VERY narrow, and in the table =
shown above,

only address 1 out of 20 possibilies in that space.

=20

In contrast, the TEEP WG decided that it was not interested in narrow =
scopings

(specifically something Global Platform specific), but instead wanted =
one general solution.

=20

If the RATS WG spends effort on something that only addresses a single =
row out of 20+ rows,

then do we expect 19+ other solutions to also be done in the WG?  Or =
could we work on things

that are broader and happen to also work for row 9?

=20

I've seen others commenting on the fact that the YANG module only =
supports TPMs and not

other things (EATs etc), which would just add support for a couple more =
rows, but still not

be general.

=20

Personally, I would much rather see the WG spend effort on things that =
really are generic,

i.e., work with or without host firewalls, work with multiple RoT/TEE =
types, etc., rather

than seeing an explosion of point solutions.

=20

Dave

=20

From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org> > On =
Behalf Of Smith, Ned
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2019 10:12 AM
To: Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com =
<mailto:ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com> >; Laurence Lundblade =
<lgl@island-resort.com <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com> >; Nancy =
Cam-Winget (ncamwing) <ncamwing@cisco.com <mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com> >
Cc: rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org> ; Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> >
Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang =
module draft

=20

Right. This implies the RATS =E2=80=9Ctoken=E2=80=9D should support =
existing =E2=80=9Cbinary=E2=80=9D formats as an encapsulation (signed by =
a second TA where the TPM is a first TA) or as a conveyance (unsigned?) =
token. Possibly, the only added value of the latter is a tag that =
identifies it as a TPM binary format?

=20

=20

On 11/10/19, 23:21 PM, "RATS on behalf of Oliver, Ian (Nokia - =
FI/Espoo)" <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>  on =
behalf of ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com =
<mailto:ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com> > wrote:

=20

> Remote TPM attestations are useful and necessary the short run, but =
are of very limited capability. I believe that > EAT will replace TPM =
attestations in the long run (maybe decades) because they are far more =
expressive. I know > others believe that too.=20

=20

I would disagree with the statement of "short run" ... TPM is =
practically the only existing standardised (hardware, software, =
firmware, measurement - x86 only etc) hardware root of trust in common =
use, ie: practically all x86 machines,  The attestation mechanisms =
provided are going to be around for a very long time. =20

=20

>From telco experience, 30 years ago we said SS7 would only be around in =
the short term.

=20

> Thus, I am opposed to adoption with the current TPM-only draft. =
I=E2=80=99d be OK with the current draft and a promise > to add EAT to =
it.

=20

Agree

=20

Ian

=20

--=20

Dr. Ian Oliver

Cybersecurity Research

Distinguished Member of Technical Staff

Nokia Bell Labs

+358 50 483 6237

=20

  _____ =20

From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com =
<mailto:lgl@island-resort.com> >
Sent: 11 November 2019 00:44
To: Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) <ncamwing@cisco.com =
<mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com> >
Cc: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> >; rats@ietf..org =
<mailto:rats@ietf..org>  <rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org> >
Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang =
module draft=20

=20

=20

On Nov 10, 2019, at 2:20 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) =
<ncamwing@cisco.com <mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com> > wrote:

=20

So, Laurence, are you still OK with the adoption of the current draft =
with a rename for now?
Thanks, Nancy

=20

I think the value add to the larger RATS effort of adding EAT support to =
this YANG protocol is really high. It a core thing to do that helps =
bring together the two attestation worlds and make the TPM and EAT work =
here less like ships in the night.

=20

Remote TPM attestations are useful and necessary the short run, but are =
of very limited capability. I believe that EAT will replace TPM =
attestations in the long run (maybe decades) because they are far more =
expressive. I know others believe that too.=20

=20

If we don=E2=80=99t include EAT in the YANG mode it is sort of like =
defining HTTP to only convey HTML to the exclusion of PDF. We=E2=80=99re =
defining an attestation protocol that can only move one kind of =
attestation even though we have consensus on what the other one looks =
like.

=20

It seems relatively simple to add EAT support (or promise to add EAT =
support). Pretty sure I heard Henk agree to add it.

=20

Thus, I am opposed to adoption with the current TPM-only draft. =
I=E2=80=99d be OK with the current draft and a promise to add EAT to it.

=20

LL

=20


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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>As a =
network equipment vendor, TEEP environments and EAT format work =
highlight interesting futures.=C2=A0 And I support these works on that =
basis.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>On the other hand, TPMs are embedded today in =
routers.=C2=A0 And they are integrated to existing network operations =
applications.=C2=A0 However we have no standardized based industry =
management model.=C2=A0 And therefore today we see no applications which =
span equipment vendor types.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>So the TPM =
based YANG has immediate applicability, and should be adopted.=C2=A0 =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Eric<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> RATS, November 11, 2019 8:43 =
PM<br><br></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>As far =
as I can understand from draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module-01 =
and<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-01=
, they break down the use case<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>space as =
follows:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Requirements?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
+--------------+---------------+---------++---------------<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; =
RoT&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | Host Firewall | =
Privacy ||&nbsp;&nbsp; Solution&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp; =
Type&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Enabled&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | Needed&nbsp; ||&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Pieces&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;+--------------+---------------+---------++----=
-----------<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; 1&nbsp; |&nbsp; SGX&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; 2&nbsp; |&nbsp; SGX&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; 3&nbsp; |&nbsp; SGX&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; 4&nbsp; |&nbsp; SGX&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; 5&nbsp; |&nbsp; TrustZone&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; 6&nbsp; |&nbsp; TrustZone&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; 7&nbsp; |&nbsp; TrustZone&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; 8&nbsp; |&nbsp; TrustZone&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; 9&nbsp; |&nbsp; TPM&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; || =
draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module-01<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
10&nbsp; |&nbsp; TPM&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
11&nbsp; |&nbsp; TPM&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;12&nbsp; |&nbsp; =
TPM&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
13&nbsp; |SecureElement | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
14&nbsp; |SecureElement | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
15&nbsp; |SecureElement | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
16&nbsp; |SecureElement | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;||<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
17&nbsp; | Firmware&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
18&nbsp; | Firmware&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
19&nbsp; | Firmware&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
20&nbsp; | Firmware&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
... |&nbsp;&nbsp; ...&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 &nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
||<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>And =
draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-01 further scopes itself =
down<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>by only being applicable to cases with =
&quot;embedded&quot; apps only =3D Yes, and =
where<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>the security policy is only an Exact match =
against reference values =3D Yes.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>I believe that the yang =
draft doesn't have those two restrictions, from my =
reading.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>However, the point is that both drafts are VERY =
narrow, and in the table shown above,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>only address 1 out of 20 =
possibilies in that space.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>In contrast, the TEEP WG =
decided that it was not interested in narrow =
scopings<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>(specifically something Global Platform =
specific), but instead wanted one general =
solution.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>If the RATS WG spends =
effort on something that only addresses a single row out of 20+ =
rows,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>then do we expect 19+ other solutions to also be =
done in the WG?&nbsp; Or could we work on things<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>that are broader and =
happen to also work for row 9?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>I've seen others =
commenting on the fact that the YANG module only supports TPMs and =
not<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>other things (EATs etc), which would just add =
support for a couple more rows, but still not<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>be =
general.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Personally, I would much =
rather see the WG spend effort on things that really are =
generic,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>i.e., work with or without host firewalls, work =
with multiple RoT/TEE types, etc., rather<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>than seeing an explosion =
of point solutions.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Dave<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> RATS &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; =
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Smith, Ned<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 11, 2019 =
10:12 AM<br><b>To:</b> Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com">ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs=
.com</a>&gt;; Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt;; =
Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com">ncamwing@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</=
b> <a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org">rats@ietf.org</a>; Henk Birkholz =
&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunho=
fer.de</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after =
draft rename) for Yang module draft<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Right. This =
implies the RATS =E2=80=9Ctoken=E2=80=9D should support existing =
=E2=80=9Cbinary=E2=80=9D formats as an encapsulation (signed by a second =
TA where the TPM is a first TA) or as a conveyance (unsigned?) token. =
Possibly, the only added value of the latter is a tag that identifies it =
as a TPM binary format?<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>On 11/10/19, 23:21 PM, &quot;RATS on behalf =
of Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a> on =
behalf of <a =
href=3D"mailto:ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com">ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs=
.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>&gt; Remote TPM attestations are =
useful and necessary the short run, but are of very limited capability. =
I believe that &gt; EAT will replace TPM attestations in the long run =
(maybe decades) because they are far more expressive. I know &gt; others =
believe that too.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div>=
<div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>I would disagree with the =
statement of &quot;short run&quot; ... TPM is practically the only =
existing standardised (hardware, software, firmware, measurement - x86 =
only etc) hardware root of trust in common use, ie: practically all x86 =
machines,&nbsp; The attestation mechanisms provided are going to be =
around for a very long time.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div>=
<div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>From telco experience, 30 years =
ago we said SS7 would only be around in the short =
term.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><=
p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>&gt; Thus, I am opposed to =
adoption with the current TPM-only draft. I=E2=80=99d be OK with the =
current draft and a promise &gt; to add EAT to =
it.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div>=
<div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Agree<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><=
div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div>=
<div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Ian<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><di=
v><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div>=
<div id=3DSignature><div id=3Ddivtagdefaultwrapper><p =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'color:black'>-- =
<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>Dr. Ian Oliver<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'color:black'>Cybersecurity =
Research<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>Distinguished Member of Technical =
Staff<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span =
style=3D'color:black'>Nokia Bell Labs<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span style=3D'color:black'>+358 50 483 =
6237<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div>=
<div style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'text-align:center'><hr size=3D1 width=3D"99%" =
align=3Dcenter></div></div><div id=3DdivRplyFwdMsg><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><b><span =
style=3D'color:black'>From:</span></b><span style=3D'color:black'> =
Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt;<br><b=
>Sent:</b> 11 November 2019 00:44<br><b>To:</b> Nancy Cam-Winget =
(ncamwing) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com">ncamwing@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</=
b> Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunho=
fer.de</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf..org">rats@ietf..org</a> =
&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org">rats@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b> =
Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module =
draft</span> <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>On Nov 10, 2019, at 2:20 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget =
(ncamwing) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com">ncamwing@cisco.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>So, =
Laurence, are you still OK with the adoption of the current draft with a =
rename for now?<br>Thanks, =
Nancy</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>I think the value add to =
the larger RATS effort of adding EAT support to this YANG protocol is =
really high. It a core thing to do that helps bring together the two =
attestation worlds and make the TPM and EAT work here less like ships in =
the night.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>Remote TPM attestations are =
useful and necessary the short run, but are of very limited capability. =
I believe that EAT will replace TPM attestations in the long run (maybe =
decades) because they are far more expressive. I know others believe =
that too.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>If we don=E2=80=99t include =
EAT in the YANG mode it is sort of like defining HTTP to only convey =
HTML to the exclusion of PDF. We=E2=80=99re defining an attestation =
protocol that can only move one kind of attestation even though we have =
consensus on what the other one looks like.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>It seems relatively simple =
to add EAT support (or promise to add EAT support). Pretty sure I heard =
Henk agree to add it.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>Thus, I am opposed to =
adoption with the current TPM-only draft. I=E2=80=99d be OK with the =
current draft and a promise to add EAT to =
it.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>LL<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div></div></div><=
/div></div></body></html>
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Subject: [Rats] [ietf-rats-wg/eat] 34637f: Clarify description of disabled state
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  Branch: refs/heads/update_debug_claim
  Home:   https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat
  Commit: 34637f2ec60ae11fd735584a6bd78ce6e6fc7daa
      https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/34637f2ec60ae11fd735584a6bd78ce6e6fc7daa
  Author: Laurence Lundblade <laurencelundblade@users.noreply.github.com>
  Date:   2019-11-12 (Tue, 12 Nov 2019)

  Changed paths:
    M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md

  Log Message:
  -----------
  Clarify description of disabled state

Co-Authored-By: Thomas Fossati <tho.ietf@gmail.com>



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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
CC: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, =?utf-8?B?IlNjaMO2bnfDpGxkZXIsIErDvHJnZW4i?= <J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
Thread-Index: AQHVmYgL8/lytau3hU+AhCwtIdg/0aeH5+wg
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 19:41:35 +0000
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References: <8B173958-FC2A-4D1D-A81C-F324AB632CD7@cisco.com> <147F9159-6055-4E55-ABDC-43DFE3498BF1@island-resort.com> <ce5f8206-74dc-36bb-0093-a93045d5c67f@sit.fraunhofer.de> <0A7E3A4F-8534-4E98-BCB7-1454E07699F4@island-resort.com> <C3AE2645-49C8-4313-BCED-02FEB576B614@cisco.com> <1C8A1884-A37D-45E3-8C11-2FC5A083B245@island-resort.com> <ba12a686-1b34-21a3-388c-bbe01c01a408@sandelman.ca> <4A83CDF5-D29F-4279-8B03-E9D23299EB53@island-resort.com> <0C6940B0-E93F-4274-9D00-DEC4119B8F69@island-resort.com> <3310947D-EA31-4107-8FF0-B917A027C955@intel.com> <20191111213249.4p7z2ovkvqy2u5go@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <3C967A22-DBB0-4EA7-923D-B423920EB9BD@intel.com> <0AACCF7B-36A9-4AF9-B18A-BF18DC35986E@island-resort.com> <a72c6bb0-0f96-3d25-0faf-d5a1fe92a2c8@sit.fraunhofer.de> <2F3459F0-0063-4012-933F-F036E75A1331@island-resort.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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With YANG, it is possible to support both opaque transport of =
information, as well as extracting that opaque information from a chip =
contained within the attester.  We will need both supported. =20

=20

For an example of why, consider a local Wireless Access Point which gets =
signed GPS location from a chip:=20

*	The Wireless Access Point will need to understand the GPS location =
because it might only legally be allowed to turn on various radio =
frequencies based on the country.
*	Remote devices might use YANG to ask the Wireless Access Point to only =
send signed proof of location if it turns out they are in a particular =
geography.

=20

YANG models can support both opaque and explicitly typed data, even =
within the same model.  I expect that will be done in the cases =
described below.  It is also possible to have opaque data object with =
its internals YANG modeled and decipherable by the recipient of that =
opaque data.   If you want more details on how this can be done, check =
out: draft-ietf-netmod-yang-data-ext.

=20

Thanks,
Eric

=20

From: RATS, November 12, 2019 1:36 PM

=20

An EAT would show up as a single statement in the RATS YANG module. The =
EAT would be opaque in the RATS YANG module. The RATS work group would =
not author any YANG to describe the claims described in the EAT =
document.=20

=20

The attester side implementation of this would:

*	Have code that creates CWT/COSE/CBOR formatted EAT tokens. This would =
probably be new code. Could also be JWT/JOSE/JSON.
*	Not need a TPM
*	Probably re use some existing libraries (JSON or XML or such) to =
implement what is described in the RATS YANG Module. That would not be =
anything to do with claims, so this part would exist primarily transport =
the opaque EAT.

I imagine if you were to use X.509 certificates with YANG, it would be =
really similar. The EAT is analogous to the X.509 certificate. There =
would be no YANG text authored to describe the internals of the X.509 =
certificate.

=20

What I=E2=80=99ve described so far is what I want in the RATS YANG =
Module in order for it to be adopted.  The next paragraphs are about the =
idea of the TPM Token.

=20

=20

=20

One way to describe my proposal is to split the current RATS YANG Module =
document into two.

=20

A new TPM Token document would be created. It would describe a list of =
claims and a signature over those claims. This would be compatible with =
TPM signing. It would essentially be a serialization of the output of a =
TPM.

=20

The RATS YANG Module document would have a large amount of its text =
replaced with a single statement that is for the transfer of either an =
EAT or a TPM Token.

=20

LL

=20

=20

=20

=20

=20

My thought is that EATs are opaque to the transport / conveyance =
protocol and that the YANG module should just describe a transport pr





On Nov 12, 2019, at 12:28 AM, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> > wrote:

=20

Hi Laurence,

maybe I lack the required background knowledge about YANG here. My =
question is the following: Is it in-scope for a YANG modules (which =
typically have a well-defined semantic scope for each statement) to =
convey opaque EATs via a single statement. Or is it necessary to create =
YANG statements for each well-defined EAT Claim?

Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,

Henk

On 12.11.19 05:16, Laurence Lundblade wrote:



What is most important for me is that the YANG document allow for EAT =
tokens as that seems like an important upgrade path / alternative given =
that EATs are much more capable.
But flip it around. In RATS maybe it should be possible for TPM-based =
attestations to go anywhere an EAT goes. You should be able move TPM =
attestations around by HTTP, or in TLS extension points or maybe even as =
an IMAP extension just like you can with EAT. To some degree FIDO has =
done it. It has a pluggable attestation architecture that allows several =
formats including TPM-based, Android SafetyNet (which is not Android key =
store) and some FIDO-specific schemes that are more EAT like.
That seems like it takes you to a clear demarcation between:
 * Self-securing signed attestation token
 * Token conveyance protocol
This seems very good in concept. We often separate like this in protocol =
design.
Then one way to look at the RATS work is in three:
1. EAT Attestation Token
2. TPM Token (that can be carried by HTTP and almost any conceivable
   protocol extension)
3. A very specific YANG-based conveyance protocol for routers because
   that=E2=80=99s how routers like it and it is important for the RATS =
work
   group constituency.
Maybe we=E2=80=99ll find another specific conveyance protocol =
we=E2=80=99ll want to address, but in general we don=E2=80=99t have to. =
All the web app, IoS app and Android app frameworks will be OK just like =
they are today for things like Android KeyStore.
If you look at it this way, 1) then EAT is fine as, 2) we need to define =
a new "TPM Token" format that is sort of an alternative to EAT, and 3) =
the YANG module has to be tweaked so it is a carrier of EATs and TPM =
Tokens. (I=E2=80=99m probably glossing over some of the complexity with =
YANG and TPMs).
TPM Token would not be a general claims carrier like EAT. TPM HW is =
super locked down and limited and TPM Token would just do what TPMs can =
do. Probably the =E2=80=9Cclaims" amount to a few PCRs. Since the TPM =
signing format is fixed, the TPM Token signing format would be fixed. =
TPM Token is sort of a serialization of the output of a TPM. (It =
can=E2=80=99t be directly COSE as TPM=E2=80=99s can=E2=80=99t do RFC =
8152 section 4.4, the COSE-specific creation of the to-be-signed bytes, =
when signing; probably similarly not JOSE). Since TPM Token is simple, =
will never change and won=E2=80=99t have extensions we don=E2=80=99t =
need all the weight of CDDL or YANG or such and can maybe go directly to =
JSON, XML or CBOR.
LL



On Nov 11, 2019, at 4:56 PM, Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com =
<mailto:ned.smith@intel.com>  <mailto:ned.smith@intel.com>> wrote:

YANG I already being used to describe attestation flows and attestation =
related data. So the reason why is it is already deployed.

YANG has been used as an IM language but more commonly as a DML.

When trying to talk about attestation "Claims" it helps if we're =
speaking the same language.

=EF=BB=BFOn 11/11/19, 13:33 PM, "RATS on behalf of =
Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder, J=C3=BCrgen" <rats-bounces@ietf.org =
<mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>  <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf =
of J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de =
<mailto:J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>  =
<mailto:J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>> wrote:

   Hi,

   we commonly call YANG a data modeling language and not an information
   modeling language. Can someone explain why you want to use YANG?

   /js

   On Mon, Nov 11, 2019 at 09:27:09PM +0000, Smith, Ned wrote:



You=E2=80=99re saying YANG fills a gap that is similar to what =
OpenAPI/RAML fills?

It could be doing more than this as well, such as defining claims (as =
was suggested in a previous email by I think Michael). If RATS =
determined that the way to specify a Claim in the information model was =
via CDDL (only) and there is a YANG expression of it, then that implies =
a CDDL to YANG mapping is required. (Is that reasonable?).

Or RATS says that it is reasonable to use either/both CDDL and YANG for =
Claims expressions. This suggests there are CDDL and YANG mappings to =
whatever are the target DMLs (JOSE, COSE, DER, something else?). Does =
YANG support DML mappings to JOSE, COSE and DER or just to YANG? Does =
CDDL support mappings to DER and YANG (something else)?

Ideally CDDL can be mapped to other information modelling languages =
(e.g. YANG) so that only one normative expression needs to be canonized. =
However, that implies extra work on behalf of the YANG drafts to come up =
with the CDDL equivalent. Maybe that is unnecessary extra work for =
consistency sake? That would force the conversations around whether =
=E2=80=98time=E2=80=99 and =E2=80=98ticks=E2=80=99 are the same =
information model expression (for example).

-Ned

On 11/11/19, 11:52 AM, "RATS on behalf of Laurence Lundblade" =
<rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>  =
<mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org><mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf =
of lgl@island-resort.com <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>  =
<mailto:lgl@island-resort.com><mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>> wrote:

One more note on this. It seems wrong-headed to try express claims in =
YANG. To do that we=E2=80=99d need to invent a YANG signing standard =
(YOSE?). Seems like YANG should be thought of as RPC / conveyance / =
transport here, not as a way to format a signed attestation token.

LL



On Nov 11, 2019, at 11:47 AM, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com =
<mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>  =
<mailto:lgl@island-resort.com><mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>> wrote:

On Nov 10, 2019, at 9:20 PM, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca =
<mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>  =
<mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca><mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>> wrote:


I think the value add to the larger RATS effort of adding EAT support
to this YANG protocol is really high. It a core thing to do that helps
bring together the two attestation worlds and make the TPM and EAT
work here less like ships in the night.

Can you explain what it would mean to add EAT support for a YANG module?

The EAT is an opaque chunk of data in YANG. I=E2=80=99m not a YANG =
expert, but maybe like this:

Server                               Device
GetAttestationTypes =E2=80=94>
                               <- TYPE_TPM, TYPE_CWT /* bit flags */

GetAttestation(TYPE_CWT , nonce) =E2=80=94>
                               <=E2=80=94 CWT Token /* a full signed =
token */

I assume YANG can carry opaque binary data of moderate size.

The yang module information model would have an element for a nonce and =
for an opaque EAT. It would not describe any internals of the EAT. The =
information model for the EAT is separate in the EAT document.

LL









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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal>With YANG, =
it is possible to support both opaque transport of information, as well =
as extracting that opaque information from a chip contained within the =
attester.=C2=A0 We will need both supported.=C2=A0 <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>For an =
example of why, consider a local Wireless Access Point which gets signed =
GPS location from a chip: <o:p></o:p></p><ul style=3D'margin-top:0in' =
type=3Ddisc><li class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'>The Wireless Access =
Point will need to understand the GPS location because it might only =
legally be allowed to turn on various radio frequencies based on the =
country.<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3DMsoListParagraph =
style=3D'margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2'>Remote devices might =
use YANG to ask the Wireless Access Point to only send signed proof of =
location if it turns out they are in a particular =
geography.<o:p></o:p></li></ul><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>YANG models =
can support both opaque and explicitly typed data, even within the same =
model.=C2=A0 I expect that will be done in the cases described =
below.=C2=A0 It is also possible to have opaque data object with its =
internals YANG modeled and decipherable by the recipient of that opaque =
data.=C2=A0=C2=A0 If you want more details on how this can be done, =
check out: draft-ietf-netmod-yang-data-ext.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks,<br>Eric<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 =
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> RATS, =
November 12, 2019 1:36 PM<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>An EAT =
would show up as a single statement in the RATS YANG module. The EAT =
would be opaque in the RATS YANG module. The RATS work group would not =
author any YANG to describe the claims described in the EAT =
document.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>The attester side implementation of this =
would:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><ul type=3Ddisc><li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 =
level1 lfo1'>Have code that creates CWT/COSE/CBOR formatted EAT tokens. =
This would probably be new code. Could also be =
JWT/JOSE/JSON.<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 =
level1 lfo1'>Not need a TPM<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 =
level1 lfo1'>Probably re use some existing libraries (JSON or XML or =
such) to implement what is described in the RATS YANG Module. That would =
not be anything to do with claims, so this part would exist primarily =
transport the opaque EAT.<o:p></o:p></li></ul></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I imagine if you were to use X.509 certificates with =
YANG, it would be really similar. The EAT is analogous to the X.509 =
certificate. There would be no YANG text authored to describe the =
internals of the X.509 certificate.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>What I=E2=80=99ve described so far is what I want in =
the RATS YANG Module in order for it to be adopted. &nbsp;The next =
paragraphs are about the idea of the TPM =
Token.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>One way to describe my proposal is to split the =
current RATS YANG Module document into two.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>A =
new TPM Token document would be created. It would describe a list of =
claims and a signature over those claims. This would be compatible with =
TPM signing. It would essentially be a serialization of the output of a =
TPM.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>The RATS YANG Module document would have a large =
amount of its text replaced with a single statement that is for the =
transfer of either an EAT or a TPM Token.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>LL<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>My =
thought is that EATs are opaque to the transport / conveyance protocol =
and that the YANG module should just describe a transport =
pr<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>On Nov 12, 2019, at 12:28 AM, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunho=
fer.de</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Hi =
Laurence,<br><br>maybe I lack the required background knowledge about =
YANG here. My question is the following: Is it in-scope for a YANG =
modules (which typically have a well-defined semantic scope for each =
statement) to convey opaque EATs via a single statement. Or is it =
necessary to create YANG statements for each well-defined EAT =
Claim?<br><br>Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,<br><br>Henk<br><br>On 12.11.19 =
05:16, Laurence Lundblade wrote:<br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal>What =
is most important for me is that the YANG document allow for EAT tokens =
as that seems like an important upgrade path / alternative given that =
EATs are much more capable.<br>But flip it around. In RATS maybe it =
should be possible for TPM-based attestations to go anywhere an EAT =
goes. You should be able move TPM attestations around by HTTP, or in TLS =
extension points or maybe even as an IMAP extension just like you can =
with EAT. To some degree FIDO has done it. It has a pluggable =
attestation architecture that allows several formats including =
TPM-based, Android SafetyNet (which is not Android key store) and some =
FIDO-specific schemes that are more EAT like.<br>That seems like it =
takes you to a clear demarcation between:<br>&nbsp;* Self-securing =
signed attestation token<br>&nbsp;* Token conveyance protocol<br>This =
seems very good in concept. We often separate like this in protocol =
design.<br>Then one way to look at the RATS work is in three:<br>1. EAT =
Attestation Token<br>2. TPM Token (that can be carried by HTTP and =
almost any conceivable<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;protocol extension)<br>3. A =
very specific YANG-based conveyance protocol for routers =
because<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;that=E2=80=99s how routers like it and it =
is important for the RATS work<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;group =
constituency.<br>Maybe we=E2=80=99ll find another specific conveyance =
protocol we=E2=80=99ll want to address, but in general we don=E2=80=99t =
have to. All the web app, IoS app and Android app frameworks will be OK =
just like they are today for things like Android KeyStore.<br>If you =
look at it this way, 1) then EAT is fine as, 2) we need to define a new =
&quot;TPM Token&quot; format that is sort of an alternative to EAT, and =
3) the YANG module has to be tweaked so it is a carrier of EATs and TPM =
Tokens. (I=E2=80=99m probably glossing over some of the complexity with =
YANG and TPMs).<br>TPM Token would not be a general claims carrier like =
EAT. TPM HW is super locked down and limited and TPM Token would just do =
what TPMs can do. Probably the =E2=80=9Cclaims&quot; amount to a few =
PCRs. Since the TPM signing format is fixed, the TPM Token signing =
format would be fixed. TPM Token is sort of a serialization of the =
output of a TPM. (It can=E2=80=99t be directly COSE as TPM=E2=80=99s =
can=E2=80=99t do RFC 8152 section 4.4, the COSE-specific creation of the =
to-be-signed bytes, when signing; probably similarly not JOSE). Since =
TPM Token is simple, will never change and won=E2=80=99t have extensions =
we don=E2=80=99t need all the weight of CDDL or YANG or such and can =
maybe go directly to JSON, XML or =
CBOR.<br>LL<br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal>On =
Nov 11, 2019, at 4:56 PM, Smith, Ned &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com">ned.smith@intel.com</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com">mailto:ned.smith@intel.com</a>&gt;&gt=
; wrote:<br><br>YANG I already being used to describe attestation flows =
and attestation related data. So the reason why is it is already =
deployed.<br><br>YANG has been used as an IM language but more commonly =
as a DML.<br><br>When trying to talk about attestation =
&quot;Claims&quot; it helps if we're speaking the same =
language.<br><br>=EF=BB=BFOn 11/11/19, 13:33 PM, &quot;RATS on behalf of =
Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder, J=C3=BCrgen&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt=
; on behalf of <a =
href=3D"mailto:J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de">J.Schoenwaelder@jaco=
bs-university.de</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de">mailto:J.Schoenwaeld=
er@jacobs-university.de</a>&gt;&gt; =
wrote:<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Hi,<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;we commonly =
call YANG a data modeling language and not an =
information<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;modeling language. Can someone explain =
why you want to use =
YANG?<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;/js<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;On Mon, Nov =
11, 2019 at 09:27:09PM +0000, Smith, Ned =
wrote:<br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>You=E2=80=99re saying YANG fills a gap =
that is similar to what OpenAPI/RAML fills?<br><br>It could be doing =
more than this as well, such as defining claims (as was suggested in a =
previous email by I think Michael). If RATS determined that the way to =
specify a Claim in the information model was via CDDL (only) and there =
is a YANG expression of it, then that implies a CDDL to YANG mapping is =
required. (Is that reasonable?).<br><br>Or RATS says that it is =
reasonable to use either/both CDDL and YANG for Claims expressions. This =
suggests there are CDDL and YANG mappings to whatever are the target =
DMLs (JOSE, COSE, DER, something else?). Does YANG support DML mappings =
to JOSE, COSE and DER or just to YANG? Does CDDL support mappings to DER =
and YANG (something else)?<br><br>Ideally CDDL can be mapped to other =
information modelling languages (e.g. YANG) so that only one normative =
expression needs to be canonized. However, that implies extra work on =
behalf of the YANG drafts to come up with the CDDL equivalent. Maybe =
that is unnecessary extra work for consistency sake? That would force =
the conversations around whether =E2=80=98time=E2=80=99 and =
=E2=80=98ticks=E2=80=99 are the same information model expression (for =
example).<br><br>-Ned<br><br>On 11/11/19, 11:52 AM, &quot;RATS on behalf =
of Laurence Lundblade&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt=
;&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org">mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt=
; on behalf of <a =
href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com">lgl@island-resort.com</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com">mailto:lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt=
;&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com">mailto:lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt=
;&gt; wrote:<br><br>One more note on this. It seems wrong-headed to try =
express claims in YANG. To do that we=E2=80=99d need to invent a YANG =
signing standard (YOSE?). Seems like YANG should be thought of as RPC / =
conveyance / transport here, not as a way to format a signed attestation =
token.<br><br>LL<br><br><br><br>On Nov 11, 2019, at 11:47 AM, Laurence =
Lundblade &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com">lgl@island-resort.com</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com">mailto:lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt=
;&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com">mailto:lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt=
;&gt; wrote:<br><br>On Nov 10, 2019, at 9:20 PM, Michael Richardson =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca">mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca</a> =
&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca">mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca</a>&gt=
;&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca">mailto:mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca</a>&gt=
;&gt; wrote:<br><br><br>I think the value add to the larger RATS effort =
of adding EAT support<br>to this YANG protocol is really high. It a core =
thing to do that helps<br>bring together the two attestation worlds and =
make the TPM and EAT<br>work here less like ships in the =
night.<br><br>Can you explain what it would mean to add EAT support for =
a YANG module?<br><br>The EAT is an opaque chunk of data in YANG. =
I=E2=80=99m not a YANG expert, but maybe like this:<br><br>Server =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Device<br>GetAttestationTypes =
=E2=80=94&gt;<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&lt;- TYPE_TPM, =
TYPE_CWT /* bit flags */<br><br>GetAttestation(TYPE_CWT , nonce) =
=E2=80=94&gt;<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&lt;=E2=80=94 =
CWT Token /* a full signed token */<br><br>I assume YANG can carry =
opaque binary data of moderate size.<br><br>The yang module information =
model would have an element for a nonce and for an opaque EAT. It would =
not describe any internals of the EAT. The information model for the EAT =
is separate in the EAT =
document.<br><br>LL<br><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>_______________________________________________<br>RATS=
 mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org">RATS@ietf.org</a> =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org">mailto:RATS@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/rats</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;--<br>&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;Juergen Schoenwaelder =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Jacobs =
University Bremen gGmbH<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Phone: +49 421 200 3587 =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Campus Ring 1 | 28759 =
Bremen | Germany<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Fax: &nbsp;&nbsp;+49 421 200 3103 =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&lt;<a =
href=3D"https://www.jacobs-university.de/">https://www.jacobs-university.=
de/</a>&gt;<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;________________________________________=
_______<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;RATS mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org">RATS@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org">mailto:RATS@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/rats</a><br><br><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>_______________________________________________<br>RATS=
 mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org">RATS@ietf.org</a><br><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/rats</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div></blockquote></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div></body></html>
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  Branch: refs/heads/256bitUEID
  Home:   https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat
  Commit: 6a52f57ace4b3f28d43554c52ddd52a4ab8b57a8
      https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/6a52f57ace4b3f28d43554c52ddd52a4ab8b57a8
  Author: Laurence Lundblade <laurencelundblade@users.noreply.github.com>
  Date:   2019-11-12 (Tue, 12 Nov 2019)

  Changed paths:
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  Log Message:
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  Correct spelling of BlueTooth

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  Branch: refs/heads/256bitUEID
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      https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/fda4a07f983837d35b5c71d75e32bbb4768f4688
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  Date:   2019-11-12 (Tue, 12 Nov 2019)

  Changed paths:
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Co-Authored-By: Thomas Fossati <tho.ietf@gmail.com>



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  Branch: refs/heads/256bitUEID
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  Date:   2019-11-12 (Tue, 12 Nov 2019)

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  Branch: refs/heads/256bitUEID
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Subject: [Rats] [ietf-rats-wg/eat] b154dc: Grammar
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  Branch: refs/heads/256bitUEID
  Home:   https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat
  Commit: b154dc9cc34215d78e721381a041f28bbd627883
      https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/b154dc9cc34215d78e721381a041f28bbd627883
  Author: Laurence Lundblade <laurencelundblade@users.noreply.github.com>
  Date:   2019-11-12 (Tue, 12 Nov 2019)

  Changed paths:
    M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md

  Log Message:
  -----------
  Grammar

Co-Authored-By: Thomas Fossati <tho.ietf@gmail.com>



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From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
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Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 12:21:59 -0800
In-Reply-To: <DM6PR11MB415482CA6DB46BAAAE15A00EA1770@DM6PR11MB4154.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
Cc: Dave Thaler <dthaler=40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, "Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>, "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" <ncamwing@cisco.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
References: <8B173958-FC2A-4D1D-A81C-F324AB632CD7@cisco.com> <147F9159-6055-4E55-ABDC-43DFE3498BF1@island-resort.com> <ce5f8206-74dc-36bb-0093-a93045d5c67f@sit.fraunhofer.de> <0A7E3A4F-8534-4E98-BCB7-1454E07699F4@island-resort.com> <C3AE2645-49C8-4313-BCED-02FEB576B614@cisco.com> <1C8A1884-A37D-45E3-8C11-2FC5A083B245@island-resort.com> <HE1PR0702MB375366C5F7FE5C497C35D73B8F740@HE1PR0702MB3753.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <7106C9D3-8ED1-419E-81F8-4CDA799BEDAE@intel.com> <MWHPR21MB07844F61BEFAE03F9E7DD290A3770@MWHPR21MB0784.namprd21.prod.outlook.com> <DM6PR11MB415482CA6DB46BAAAE15A00EA1770@DM6PR11MB4154.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/qFI10QO0x9pGNWghwqB5_KNDEKE>
Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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Here=E2=80=99s three possible versions of the RATS YANG Module:
1) As is today, TPM only, no separation of transport from attestation =
token. no EAT
2) As is today + EAT transport. There=E2=80=99s separation of transport =
from token format for EAT, but not for TPM attestation
3) Full separation of transport from attestation token.  The RATS YANG =
modules focuses on transport

I want a commitment to 2) or 3) for adoption. I agree that RATS should =
support some YANG-based means for attestation for routers.

Dave seems to be saying none at all.

Which do you want?  My guess is one MUST be pursued by RATS. You=E2=80=99d=
 be happy with 1) and probably 2). 3) is probably still to fuzzy to say.

LL


> On Nov 12, 2019, at 11:14 AM, Eric Voit (evoit) <evoit@cisco.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> As a network equipment vendor, TEEP environments and EAT format work =
highlight interesting futures.  And I support these works on that basis.
> =20
> On the other hand, TPMs are embedded today in routers.  And they are =
integrated to existing network operations applications.  However we have =
no standardized based industry management model.  And therefore today we =
see no applications which span equipment vendor types.
> =20
> So the TPM based YANG has immediate applicability, and should be =
adopted.=20
> =20
> Eric
> =20
> From: RATS, November 11, 2019 8:43 PM
>=20
> As far as I can understand from =
draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module-01 and
> draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-01, they break down the =
use case
> space as follows:
> =20
>                         Requirements?
>          +--------------+---------------+---------++---------------
>          |  RoT         | Host Firewall | Privacy ||   Solution  =20
>          |  Type        |   Enabled     | Needed  ||    Pieces   =20
>          +--------------+---------------+---------++---------------
>       1  |  SGX         | No            | No      ||
>       2  |  SGX         | No            | Yes     ||
>       3  |  SGX         | Yes           | No      ||
>       4  |  SGX         | Yes           | Yes     ||
>       5  |  TrustZone   | No            | No      ||
>       6  |  TrustZone   | No            | Yes     ||
>       7  |  TrustZone   | Yes           | No      ||
>       8  |  TrustZone   | Yes           | Yes     ||
>       9  |  TPM         | No            | No      || =
draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module-01
>      10  |  TPM         | No            | Yes     ||
>      11  |  TPM         | Yes           | No      ||
>      12  |  TPM         | Yes           | Yes     ||
>      13  |SecureElement | No            | No      ||
>      14  |SecureElement | No            | Yes     ||
>      15  |SecureElement | Yes           | No      ||
>      16  |SecureElement | Yes           | Yes     ||
>      17  | Firmware     | No            | No      ||
>      18  | Firmware     | No            | Yes     ||
>      19  | Firmware     | Yes           | No      ||
>      20  | Firmware     | Yes           | Yes     ||
>      ... |   ...        |               |         ||
> =20
> And draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-01 further scopes =
itself down
> by only being applicable to cases with "embedded" apps only =3D Yes, =
and where
> the security policy is only an Exact match against reference values =3D =
Yes.
> I believe that the yang draft doesn't have those two restrictions, =
from my reading.
> However, the point is that both drafts are VERY narrow, and in the =
table shown above,
> only address 1 out of 20 possibilies in that space.
> =20
> In contrast, the TEEP WG decided that it was not interested in narrow =
scopings
> (specifically something Global Platform specific), but instead wanted =
one general solution.
> =20
> If the RATS WG spends effort on something that only addresses a single =
row out of 20+ rows,
> then do we expect 19+ other solutions to also be done in the WG?  Or =
could we work on things
> that are broader and happen to also work for row 9?
> =20
> I've seen others commenting on the fact that the YANG module only =
supports TPMs and not
> other things (EATs etc), which would just add support for a couple =
more rows, but still not
> be general.
> =20
> Personally, I would much rather see the WG spend effort on things that =
really are generic,
> i.e., work with or without host firewalls, work with multiple RoT/TEE =
types, etc., rather
> than seeing an explosion of point solutions.
> =20
> Dave
> =20
> From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>> On =
Behalf Of Smith, Ned
> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2019 10:12 AM
> To: Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com =
<mailto:ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>>; Laurence Lundblade =
<lgl@island-resort.com <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>>; Nancy Cam-Winget =
(ncamwing) <ncamwing@cisco.com <mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com>>
> Cc: rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org>; Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>
> Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang =
module draft
> =20
> Right. This implies the RATS =E2=80=9Ctoken=E2=80=9D should support =
existing =E2=80=9Cbinary=E2=80=9D formats as an encapsulation (signed by =
a second TA where the TPM is a first TA) or as a conveyance (unsigned?) =
token. Possibly, the only added value of the latter is a tag that =
identifies it as a TPM binary format?
> =20
> =20
> On 11/10/19, 23:21 PM, "RATS on behalf of Oliver, Ian (Nokia - =
FI/Espoo)" <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org> on =
behalf of ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com =
<mailto:ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>> wrote:
> =20
> > Remote TPM attestations are useful and necessary the short run, but =
are of very limited capability. I believe that > EAT will replace TPM =
attestations in the long run (maybe decades) because they are far more =
expressive. I know > others believe that too.=20
> =20
> I would disagree with the statement of "short run" ... TPM is =
practically the only existing standardised (hardware, software, =
firmware, measurement - x86 only etc) hardware root of trust in common =
use, ie: practically all x86 machines,  The attestation mechanisms =
provided are going to be around for a very long time.=20
> =20
> =46rom telco experience, 30 years ago we said SS7 would only be around =
in the short term.
> =20
> > Thus, I am opposed to adoption with the current TPM-only draft. =
I=E2=80=99d be OK with the current draft and a promise > to add EAT to =
it.
> =20
> Agree
> =20
> Ian
> =20
> --
>=20
> Dr. Ian Oliver
>=20
> Cybersecurity Research
>=20
> Distinguished Member of Technical Staff
>=20
> Nokia Bell Labs
>=20
> +358 50 483 6237
>=20
> =20
> From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com =
<mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>>
> Sent: 11 November 2019 00:44
> To: Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) <ncamwing@cisco.com =
<mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com>>
> Cc: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>; rats@ietf..org =
<mailto:rats@ietf..org> <rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org>>
> Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang =
module draft
> =20
> =20
> On Nov 10, 2019, at 2:20 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) =
<ncamwing@cisco.com <mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com>> wrote:
> =20
> So, Laurence, are you still OK with the adoption of the current draft =
with a rename for now?
> Thanks, Nancy
> =20
> I think the value add to the larger RATS effort of adding EAT support =
to this YANG protocol is really high. It a core thing to do that helps =
bring together the two attestation worlds and make the TPM and EAT work =
here less like ships in the night.
> =20
> Remote TPM attestations are useful and necessary the short run, but =
are of very limited capability. I believe that EAT will replace TPM =
attestations in the long run (maybe decades) because they are far more =
expressive. I know others believe that too.=20
> =20
> If we don=E2=80=99t include EAT in the YANG mode it is sort of like =
defining HTTP to only convey HTML to the exclusion of PDF. We=E2=80=99re =
defining an attestation protocol that can only move one kind of =
attestation even though we have consensus on what the other one looks =
like.
> =20
> It seems relatively simple to add EAT support (or promise to add EAT =
support). Pretty sure I heard Henk agree to add it.
> =20
> Thus, I am opposed to adoption with the current TPM-only draft. I=E2=80=99=
d be OK with the current draft and a promise to add EAT to it.
> =20
> LL
> =20


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charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Here=E2=80=99s three possible versions of the RATS YANG =
Module:<div class=3D"">1) As is today, TPM only, no separation of =
transport from attestation token. no EAT</div><div class=3D"">2) As is =
today + EAT transport. There=E2=80=99s separation of transport from =
token format for EAT, but not for TPM attestation</div><div class=3D"">3) =
Full separation of transport from attestation token. &nbsp;The RATS YANG =
modules focuses on transport</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I want a commitment to 2) or 3) for =
adoption. I agree that RATS should support some YANG-based means for =
attestation for routers.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Dave seems to be saying none at all.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Which do you want? &nbsp;My guess is =
one MUST be pursued by RATS. You=E2=80=99d be happy with 1) and probably =
2). 3) is probably still to fuzzy to say.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Nov 12, 2019, at 11:14 AM, Eric Voit (evoit) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:evoit@cisco.com" class=3D"">evoit@cisco.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><meta =
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vlink=3D"purple" class=3D""><div class=3D"WordSection1"><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">As a network equipment vendor, TEEP environments and =
EAT format work highlight interesting futures.&nbsp; And I support these =
works on that basis.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On the other hand, =
TPMs are embedded today in routers.&nbsp; And they are integrated to =
existing network operations applications.&nbsp; However we have no =
standardized based industry management model.&nbsp; And therefore today =
we see no applications which span equipment vendor types.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">So the TPM based YANG =
has immediate applicability, and should be adopted.&nbsp; <o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Eric<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p><div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid =
blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt" class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b=
 class=3D"">From:</b> RATS, November 11, 2019 8:43 PM<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D" =
class=3D"">As far as I can understand from =
draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module-01 and<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#1F497D" =
class=3D"">draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-01, they break =
down the use case<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D" class=3D"">space as =
follows:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
; Requirements?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
+--------------+---------------+---------++---------------<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; =
RoT&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | Host Firewall | =
Privacy ||&nbsp;&nbsp; Solution&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp; =
Type&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Enabled&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | Needed&nbsp; ||&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Pieces&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;+--------=
------+---------------+---------++---------------<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 1&nbsp; |&nbsp; =
SGX&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2&nbsp; |&nbsp; =
SGX&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 3&nbsp; |&nbsp; =
SGX&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 4&nbsp; |&nbsp; =
SGX&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 5&nbsp; |&nbsp; =
TrustZone&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 6&nbsp; |&nbsp; =
TrustZone&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 7&nbsp; |&nbsp; =
TrustZone&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 8&nbsp; |&nbsp; =
TrustZone&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 9&nbsp; |&nbsp; =
TPM&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; || =
draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module-01<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 10&nbsp; |&nbsp; =
TPM&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 11&nbsp; |&nbsp; =
TPM&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;12&nbsp; |&nbsp; =
TPM&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 13&nbsp; |SecureElement | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 14&nbsp; |SecureElement | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 15&nbsp; |SecureElement | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 16&nbsp; |SecureElement | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;||<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 17&nbsp; | =
Firmware&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 18&nbsp; | =
Firmware&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 19&nbsp; | =
Firmware&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 20&nbsp; | =
Firmware&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ... |&nbsp;&nbsp; =
...&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#1F497D" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#1F497D" class=3D"">And =
draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-01 further scopes itself =
down<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#1F497D" class=3D"">by only being applicable to cases =
with "embedded" apps only =3D Yes, and where<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#1F497D" class=3D"">the security policy is only an Exact =
match against reference values =3D Yes.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D" class=3D"">I believe =
that the yang draft doesn't have those two restrictions, from my =
reading.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#1F497D" class=3D"">However, the point is that both =
drafts are VERY narrow, and in the table shown above,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#1F497D" class=3D"">only address 1 out of 20 possibilies =
in that space.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#1F497D" class=3D"">In contrast, the TEEP WG decided that =
it was not interested in narrow scopings<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#1F497D" class=3D"">(specifically something Global =
Platform specific), but instead wanted one general solution.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#1F497D" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#1F497D" class=3D"">If the RATS WG spends effort on =
something that only addresses a single row out of 20+ rows,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#1F497D" class=3D"">then do we expect 19+ other solutions =
to also be done in the WG?&nbsp; Or could we work on things<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#1F497D" class=3D"">that are broader and happen to also =
work for row 9?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#1F497D" class=3D"">I've seen others commenting on the =
fact that the YANG module only supports TPMs and not<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#1F497D" class=3D"">other things (EATs etc), which would =
just add support for a couple more rows, but still not<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#1F497D" class=3D"">be general.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#1F497D" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#1F497D" class=3D"">Personally, I would much rather see =
the WG spend effort on things that really are generic,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#1F497D" class=3D"">i.e., work with or without host =
firewalls, work with multiple RoT/TEE types, etc., rather<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#1F497D" class=3D"">than seeing an explosion of point =
solutions.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#1F497D" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#1F497D" class=3D"">Dave<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in" class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b class=3D"">From:</b> RATS =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; <b class=3D"">On Behalf Of =
</b>Smith, Ned<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b> Monday, November =
11, 2019 10:12 AM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b> Oliver, Ian (Nokia =
- FI/Espoo) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com" =
class=3D"">ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com</a>&gt;; Laurence Lundblade =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" =
class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt;; Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com" =
class=3D"">ncamwing@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b> =
<a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" class=3D"">rats@ietf.org</a>; Henk =
Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b> Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft =
rename) for Yang module draft<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p></div></div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">Right. This implies the RATS =E2=80=9Ctoken=E2=80=9D =
should support existing =E2=80=9Cbinary=E2=80=9D formats as an =
encapsulation (signed by a second TA where the TPM is a first TA) or as =
a conveyance (unsigned?) token. Possibly, the only added value of the =
latter is a tag that identifies it as a TPM binary format?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">On 11/10/19, 23:21 PM, =
"RATS on behalf of Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org" class=3D"">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>=
 on behalf of <a href=3D"mailto:ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com" =
class=3D"">ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p></div></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-left:.5in;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size: =
12pt;" class=3D"">&gt; Remote TPM attestations are useful and necessary =
the short run, but are of very limited capability. I believe that &gt; =
EAT will replace TPM attestations in the long run (maybe decades) =
because they are far more expressive. I know &gt; others believe that =
too.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p></div><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in;background:white"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in;background:white"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">I would disagree with the =
statement of "short run" ... TPM is practically the only existing =
standardised (hardware, software, firmware, measurement - x86 only etc) =
hardware root of trust in common use, ie: practically all x86 =
machines,&nbsp; The attestation mechanisms provided are going to be =
around for a very long time.&nbsp; <o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-left:.5in;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size: =
12pt;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-left:.5in;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size: =
12pt;" class=3D"">=46rom telco experience, 30 years ago we said SS7 =
would only be around in the short term.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-left:.5in;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size: =
12pt;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-left:.5in;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size: =
12pt;" class=3D"">&gt; Thus, I am opposed to adoption with the current =
TPM-only draft. I=E2=80=99d be OK with the current draft and a promise =
&gt; to add EAT to it.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-left:.5in;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size: =
12pt;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-left:.5in;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size: =
12pt;" class=3D"">Agree<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p></div><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-left:.5in;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size: =
12pt;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-left:.5in;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size: =
12pt;" class=3D"">Ian<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p></div><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div id=3D"Signature" =
class=3D""><div id=3D"divtagdefaultwrapper" class=3D""><p =
style=3D"margin-left:.5in" class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">-- =
<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p style=3D"margin-left:.5in" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">Dr. Ian Oliver<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p style=3D"margin-left:.5in" class=3D""><span=
 style=3D"" class=3D"">Cybersecurity Research<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p style=3D"margin-left:.5in" class=3D""><span=
 style=3D"" class=3D"">Distinguished Member of Technical Staff<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p style=3D"margin-left:.5in" class=3D""><span=
 style=3D"" class=3D"">Nokia Bell Labs<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
style=3D"margin-left:.5in" class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">+358 =
50 483 6237<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div><div style=3D"margin-left:.5in" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" =
style=3D"text-align:center"><hr size=3D"1" width=3D"99%" align=3D"center" =
class=3D""></div></div><div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" class=3D""><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><b class=3D""><span =
style=3D"" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span style=3D"" class=3D""> =
Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" =
class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b> 11 November 2019 00:44<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">To:</b> Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com" =
class=3D"">ncamwing@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b> =
Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf..org" class=3D"">rats@ietf..org</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" class=3D"">rats@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b> Re: [Rats] Call for adoption =
(after draft rename) for Yang module draft</span> <o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p></div></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p><div =
class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-left:.5in">On Nov 10, 2019, at 2:20 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget =
(ncamwing) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com" =
class=3D"">ncamwing@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">So, Laurence, are you still OK with the adoption of the =
current draft with a rename for now?<br class=3D"">Thanks, =
Nancy</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></p></div></blockquote></div><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-left:.5in">I think the value add to the larger RATS =
effort of adding EAT support to this YANG protocol is really high. It a =
core thing to do that helps bring together the two attestation worlds =
and make the TPM and EAT work here less like ships in the night.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">Remote TPM =
attestations are useful and necessary the short run, but are of very =
limited capability. I believe that EAT will replace TPM attestations in =
the long run (maybe decades) because they are far more expressive. I =
know others believe that too.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p></div><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-left:.5in">If we don=E2=80=99t include EAT in the YANG =
mode it is sort of like defining HTTP to only convey HTML to the =
exclusion of PDF. We=E2=80=99re defining an attestation protocol that =
can only move one kind of attestation even though we have consensus on =
what the other one looks like.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p></div><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-left:.5in">It seems relatively simple to add EAT support =
(or promise to add EAT support). Pretty sure I heard Henk agree to add =
it.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">Thus, I am =
opposed to adoption with the current TPM-only draft. I=E2=80=99d be OK =
with the current draft and a promise to add EAT to it.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div =
class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">LL<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p></div><div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div=
></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
CC: Dave Thaler <dthaler=40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, "Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>, "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" <ncamwing@cisco.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 21:26:36 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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Hi Laurence,

=20

From: Laurence Lundblade, November 12, 2019 3:22 PM



Here=E2=80=99s three possible versions of the RATS YANG Module:

1) As is today, TPM only, no separation of transport from attestation =
token. no EAT

2) As is today + EAT transport. There=E2=80=99s separation of transport =
from token format for EAT, but not for TPM attestation

3) Full separation of transport from attestation token.  The RATS YANG =
modules focuses on transport

<Eric> It depends on what you mean by transport.  YANG models are =
supposed to be transport agnostic.  E.g., information in YANG models is =
commonly transported over NETCONF+XML and RESTCONF+JSON.  But NETCONF =
and RESTCONF themselves are built on transactional interactions which =
might or might not align with how EAT information is intended to be =
requested and distributed from a source.

=20

The nuance for me here is YANG ecosystems exist at the operations =
boundary of a piece of network equipment.  And EAT at the boundary of a =
chip.    In both cases some transport structure needs to instigate the =
transfer of the desired information.  This is the problem I believe you =
are referencing when you talk in 3) about the full separation of =
transport.

=20

=20

I want a commitment to 2) or 3) for adoption. I agree that RATS should =
support some YANG-based means for attestation for routers.

<Eric> I certainly would love to see 2) & 3) done too.  Personally I =
don't need it until routers have chips supporting EAT.  As a result, I =
don't 1), 2), & 3) should be in single model.  The reason is as follows: =
 I don't know of a customer yet who would pull both TPM2 and EAT from a =
single device.  So why make the model implementer care to understand a =
more complex model than necessary?

=20

Dave seems to be saying none at all.

<Eric>  It seems that way.  And this doesn't makes sense to me.=20

=20

Which do you want?  My guess is one MUST be pursued by RATS. =
You=E2=80=99d be happy with 1) and probably 2). 3) is probably still to =
fuzzy to say.

<Eric> I believe 1) MUST be pursed.  I think 2) should be pursed.=20

=20

Eric

=20

=20

LL

=20





On Nov 12, 2019, at 11:14 AM, Eric Voit (evoit) <evoit@cisco.com =
<mailto:evoit@cisco.com> > wrote:

=20

As a network equipment vendor, TEEP environments and EAT format work =
highlight interesting futures.  And I support these works on that basis.

=20

On the other hand, TPMs are embedded today in routers.  And they are =
integrated to existing network operations applications.  However we have =
no standardized based industry management model.  And therefore today we =
see no applications which span equipment vendor types.

=20

So the TPM based YANG has immediate applicability, and should be =
adopted. =20

=20

Eric

=20

From: RATS, November 11, 2019 8:43 PM

As far as I can understand from draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module-01 =
and

draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-01, they break down the =
use case

space as follows:

=20

                        Requirements?

         +--------------+---------------+---------++---------------

         |  RoT         | Host Firewall | Privacy ||   Solution   =20

         |  Type        |   Enabled     | Needed  ||    Pieces    =20

         +--------------+---------------+---------++---------------

      1  |  SGX         | No            | No      ||

      2  |  SGX         | No            | Yes     ||

      3  |  SGX         | Yes           | No      ||

      4  |  SGX         | Yes           | Yes     ||

      5  |  TrustZone   | No            | No      ||

      6  |  TrustZone   | No            | Yes     ||

      7  |  TrustZone   | Yes           | No      ||

      8  |  TrustZone   | Yes           | Yes     ||

      9  |  TPM         | No            | No      || =
draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module-01

     10  |  TPM         | No            | Yes     ||

     11  |  TPM         | Yes           | No      ||

     12  |  TPM         | Yes           | Yes     ||

     13  |SecureElement | No            | No      ||

     14  |SecureElement | No            | Yes     ||

     15  |SecureElement | Yes           | No      ||

     16  |SecureElement | Yes           | Yes     ||

     17  | Firmware     | No            | No      ||

     18  | Firmware     | No            | Yes     ||

     19  | Firmware     | Yes           | No      ||

     20  | Firmware     | Yes           | Yes     ||

     ... |   ...        |               |         ||

=20

And draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-01 further scopes =
itself down

by only being applicable to cases with "embedded" apps only =3D Yes, and =
where

the security policy is only an Exact match against reference values =3D =
Yes.

I believe that the yang draft doesn't have those two restrictions, from =
my reading.

However, the point is that both drafts are VERY narrow, and in the table =
shown above,

only address 1 out of 20 possibilies in that space.

=20

In contrast, the TEEP WG decided that it was not interested in narrow =
scopings

(specifically something Global Platform specific), but instead wanted =
one general solution.

=20

If the RATS WG spends effort on something that only addresses a single =
row out of 20+ rows,

then do we expect 19+ other solutions to also be done in the WG?  Or =
could we work on things

that are broader and happen to also work for row 9?

=20

I've seen others commenting on the fact that the YANG module only =
supports TPMs and not

other things (EATs etc), which would just add support for a couple more =
rows, but still not

be general.

=20

Personally, I would much rather see the WG spend effort on things that =
really are generic,

i.e., work with or without host firewalls, work with multiple RoT/TEE =
types, etc., rather

than seeing an explosion of point solutions.

=20

Dave

=20

From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org> > On =
Behalf Of Smith, Ned
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2019 10:12 AM
To: Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com =
<mailto:ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com> >; Laurence Lundblade =
<lgl@island-resort.com <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com> >; Nancy =
Cam-Winget (ncamwing) <ncamwing@cisco.com <mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com> >
Cc: rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org> ; Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> >
Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang =
module draft

=20

Right. This implies the RATS =E2=80=9Ctoken=E2=80=9D should support =
existing =E2=80=9Cbinary=E2=80=9D formats as an encapsulation (signed by =
a second TA where the TPM is a first TA) or as a conveyance (unsigned?) =
token. Possibly, the only added value of the latter is a tag that =
identifies it as a TPM binary format?

=20

=20

On 11/10/19, 23:21 PM, "RATS on behalf of Oliver, Ian (Nokia - =
FI/Espoo)" <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>  on =
behalf of ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com =
<mailto:ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com> > wrote:

=20

> Remote TPM attestations are useful and necessary the short run, but =
are of very limited capability. I believe that > EAT will replace TPM =
attestations in the long run (maybe decades) because they are far more =
expressive. I know > others believe that too.=20

=20

I would disagree with the statement of "short run" ... TPM is =
practically the only existing standardised (hardware, software, =
firmware, measurement - x86 only etc) hardware root of trust in common =
use, ie: practically all x86 machines,  The attestation mechanisms =
provided are going to be around for a very long time. =20

=20

>From telco experience, 30 years ago we said SS7 would only be around in =
the short term.

=20

> Thus, I am opposed to adoption with the current TPM-only draft. =
I=E2=80=99d be OK with the current draft and a promise > to add EAT to =
it.

=20

Agree

=20

Ian

=20

--=20

Dr. Ian Oliver

Cybersecurity Research

Distinguished Member of Technical Staff

Nokia Bell Labs

+358 50 483 6237

=20

  _____ =20

From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com =
<mailto:lgl@island-resort.com> >
Sent: 11 November 2019 00:44
To: Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) <ncamwing@cisco.com =
<mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com> >
Cc: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> >; rats@ietf..org =
<mailto:rats@ietf..org>  <rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org> >
Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang =
module draft=20

=20

=20

On Nov 10, 2019, at 2:20 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) =
<ncamwing@cisco.com <mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com> > wrote:

=20

So, Laurence, are you still OK with the adoption of the current draft =
with a rename for now?
Thanks, Nancy

=20

I think the value add to the larger RATS effort of adding EAT support to =
this YANG protocol is really high. It a core thing to do that helps =
bring together the two attestation worlds and make the TPM and EAT work =
here less like ships in the night.

=20

Remote TPM attestations are useful and necessary the short run, but are =
of very limited capability. I believe that EAT will replace TPM =
attestations in the long run (maybe decades) because they are far more =
expressive. I know others believe that too.=20

=20

If we don=E2=80=99t include EAT in the YANG mode it is sort of like =
defining HTTP to only convey HTML to the exclusion of PDF. We=E2=80=99re =
defining an attestation protocol that can only move one kind of =
attestation even though we have consensus on what the other one looks =
like.

=20

It seems relatively simple to add EAT support (or promise to add EAT =
support). Pretty sure I heard Henk agree to add it.

=20

Thus, I am opposed to adoption with the current TPM-only draft. =
I=E2=80=99d be OK with the current draft and a promise to add EAT to it.

=20

LL

=20

=20


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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#2E75B6;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#2E75B6;mso-style-te=
xtfill-fill-alpha:100.0%'>Hi Laurence,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> Laurence Lundblade, November =
12, 2019 3:22 PM<br><br></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Here=E2=80=99s three =
possible versions of the RATS YANG Module:<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>1) As is today, TPM only, no separation of transport =
from attestation token. no EAT<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>2) As is today + EAT transport. There=E2=80=99s =
separation of transport from token format for EAT, but not for TPM =
attestation<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>3) Full =
separation of transport from attestation token. &nbsp;The RATS YANG =
modules focuses on transport<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#2E75B6;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#2E75B6;mso-style-te=
xtfill-fill-alpha:100.0%'>&lt;Eric&gt; It depends on what you mean by =
transport.=C2=A0 YANG models are supposed to be transport =
agnostic.=C2=A0 E.g., information in YANG models is commonly transported =
over NETCONF+XML and RESTCONF+JSON. =C2=A0But NETCONF and RESTCONF =
themselves are built on transactional interactions which might or might =
not align with how EAT information is intended to be requested and =
distributed from a source.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#2E75B6;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#2E75B6;mso-style-te=
xtfill-fill-alpha:100.0%'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#2E75B6;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#2E75B6;mso-style-te=
xtfill-fill-alpha:100.0%'>The nuance for me here is YANG ecosystems =
exist at the operations boundary of a piece of network equipment.=C2=A0 =
And EAT at the boundary of a chip.=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0In both cases some =
transport structure needs to instigate the transfer of the desired =
information.=C2=A0 This is the problem I believe you are referencing =
when you talk in 3) about the full separation of =
transport.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#2E75B6;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#2E75B6;mso-style-te=
xtfill-fill-alpha:100.0%'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
want a commitment to 2) or 3) for adoption. I agree that RATS should =
support some YANG-based means for attestation for =
routers.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#2E75B6;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#2E75B6;mso-style-te=
xtfill-fill-alpha:100.0%'>&lt;Eric&gt; I certainly would love to see 2) =
&amp; 3) done too.=C2=A0 Personally I don't need it until routers have =
chips supporting EAT.=C2=A0 As a result, I don't 1), 2), &amp; 3) should =
be in single model.=C2=A0 The reason is as follows: =C2=A0I don't know =
of a customer yet who would pull both TPM2 and EAT from a single =
device.=C2=A0 So why make the model implementer care to understand a =
more complex model than necessary?<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Dave seems to be saying none at all.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#2E75B6;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#2E75B6;mso-style-te=
xtfill-fill-alpha:100.0%'>&lt;Eric&gt;=C2=A0 It seems that way.=C2=A0 =
And this doesn't makes sense to me.</span> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Which do you want? &nbsp;My guess is one MUST be =
pursued by RATS. You=E2=80=99d be happy with 1) and probably 2). 3) is =
probably still to fuzzy to say.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#2E75B6;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#2E75B6;mso-style-te=
xtfill-fill-alpha:100.0%'>&lt;Eric&gt; I believe 1) MUST be =
pursed.=C2=A0 I think 2) should be pursed. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#2E75B6;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#2E75B6;mso-style-te=
xtfill-fill-alpha:100.0%'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#2E75B6;mso-style-textfill-fill-color:#2E75B6;mso-style-te=
xtfill-fill-alpha:100.0%'>Eric<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>LL<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>On Nov 12, 2019, at 11:14 AM, Eric Voit (evoit) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:evoit@cisco.com">evoit@cisco.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>As =
a network equipment vendor, TEEP environments and EAT format work =
highlight interesting futures.&nbsp; And I support these works on that =
basis.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>On the other hand, TPMs are embedded today in =
routers.&nbsp; And they are integrated to existing network operations =
applications.&nbsp; However we have no standardized based industry =
management model.&nbsp; And therefore today we see no applications which =
span equipment vendor types.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>So the TPM =
based YANG has immediate applicability, and should be adopted.&nbsp; =
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Eric<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b>From:</b> =
RATS, November 11, 2019 8:43 PM<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>As far as I can understand from =
draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module-01 and</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-01=
, they break down the use case</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>space as =
follows:</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Requirements?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
+--------------+---------------+---------++---------------</span><o:p></o=
:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; =
RoT&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | Host Firewall | =
Privacy ||&nbsp;&nbsp; Solution&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp; =
Type&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Enabled&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | Needed&nbsp; ||&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Pieces&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;+--------------+---------------+---------++----=
-----------</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; 1&nbsp; |&nbsp; SGX&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; 2&nbsp; |&nbsp; SGX&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; 3&nbsp; |&nbsp; SGX&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; 4&nbsp; |&nbsp; SGX&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; 5&nbsp; |&nbsp; TrustZone&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; 6&nbsp; |&nbsp; TrustZone&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; 7&nbsp; |&nbsp; TrustZone&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; 8&nbsp; |&nbsp; TrustZone&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; 9&nbsp; |&nbsp; TPM&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; || =
draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module-01</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
10&nbsp; |&nbsp; TPM&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
11&nbsp; |&nbsp; TPM&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;12&nbsp; |&nbsp; =
TPM&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
13&nbsp; |SecureElement | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
14&nbsp; |SecureElement | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
15&nbsp; |SecureElement | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
16&nbsp; |SecureElement | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;||</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
17&nbsp; | Firmware&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
18&nbsp; | Firmware&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
19&nbsp; | Firmware&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
20&nbsp; | Firmware&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
... |&nbsp;&nbsp; ...&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 &nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
||</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>And =
draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-01 further scopes itself =
down</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>by only being applicable to cases with =
&quot;embedded&quot; apps only =3D Yes, and =
where</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>the security policy is only an Exact match =
against reference values =3D Yes.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>I believe that the yang =
draft doesn't have those two restrictions, from my =
reading.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>However, the point is that both drafts are VERY =
narrow, and in the table shown above,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>only address 1 out of 20 =
possibilies in that space.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>In contrast, the TEEP WG =
decided that it was not interested in narrow =
scopings</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>(specifically something Global Platform =
specific), but instead wanted one general =
solution.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>If the RATS WG spends =
effort on something that only addresses a single row out of 20+ =
rows,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>then do we expect 19+ other solutions to also be =
done in the WG?&nbsp; Or could we work on things</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>that are broader and =
happen to also work for row 9?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>I've seen others =
commenting on the fact that the YANG module only supports TPMs and =
not</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>other things (EATs etc), which would just add =
support for a couple more rows, but still not</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>be =
general.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Personally, I would much =
rather see the WG spend effort on things that really are =
generic,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>i.e., work with or without host firewalls, work =
with multiple RoT/TEE types, etc., rather</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>than seeing an explosion =
of point solutions.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Dave</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> RATS &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; =
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Smith, Ned<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 11, 2019 =
10:12 AM<br><b>To:</b> Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com">ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs=
.com</a>&gt;; Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt;; =
Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com">ncamwing@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</=
b> <a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org">rats@ietf.org</a>; Henk Birkholz =
&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunho=
fer.de</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after =
draft rename) for Yang module draft<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Right. This =
implies the RATS =E2=80=9Ctoken=E2=80=9D should support existing =
=E2=80=9Cbinary=E2=80=9D formats as an encapsulation (signed by a second =
TA where the TPM is a first TA) or as a conveyance (unsigned?) token. =
Possibly, the only added value of the latter is a tag that identifies it =
as a TPM binary format?<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>On 11/10/19, 23:21 PM, &quot;RATS on behalf =
of Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a> on =
behalf of <a =
href=3D"mailto:ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com">ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs=
.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&gt; Remote TPM attestations are useful and =
necessary the short run, but are of very limited capability. I believe =
that &gt; EAT will replace TPM attestations in the long run (maybe =
decades) because they are far more expressive. I know &gt; others =
believe that too.&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>I would disagree with the statement of =
&quot;short run&quot; ... TPM is practically the only existing =
standardised (hardware, software, firmware, measurement - x86 only etc) =
hardware root of trust in common use, ie: practically all x86 =
machines,&nbsp; The attestation mechanisms provided are going to be =
around for a very long time.&nbsp; </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>From telco experience, 30 years ago we said =
SS7 would only be around in the short =
term.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&gt; Thus, I am opposed to adoption with the =
current TPM-only draft. I=E2=80=99d be OK with the current draft and a =
promise &gt; to add EAT to it.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Agree</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Ian</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div =
id=3DSignature><div id=3Ddivtagdefaultwrapper><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.=
5in'>-- <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.=
5in'>Dr. Ian Oliver<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.=
5in'>Cybersecurity Research<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.=
5in'>Distinguished Member of Technical Staff<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.=
5in'>Nokia Bell Labs<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.=
5in'>+358 50 483 6237<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'text-align:center'><hr size=3D1 width=3D"99%" =
align=3Dcenter></div></div><div id=3DdivRplyFwdMsg><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><b>From:</b> Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt;<br><b=
>Sent:</b> 11 November 2019 00:44<br><b>To:</b> Nancy Cam-Winget =
(ncamwing) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com">ncamwing@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</=
b> Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunho=
fer.de</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf..org">rats@ietf..org</a> =
&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org">rats@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b> =
Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft =
<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><div><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>On Nov 10, 2019, at 2:20 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget =
(ncamwing) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com">ncamwing@cisco.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>So, =
Laurence, are you still OK with the adoption of the current draft with a =
rename for now?<br>Thanks, =
Nancy</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>I think the value add to =
the larger RATS effort of adding EAT support to this YANG protocol is =
really high. It a core thing to do that helps bring together the two =
attestation worlds and make the TPM and EAT work here less like ships in =
the night.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>Remote TPM attestations are =
useful and necessary the short run, but are of very limited capability. =
I believe that EAT will replace TPM attestations in the long run (maybe =
decades) because they are far more expressive. I know others believe =
that too.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>If we don=E2=80=99t include =
EAT in the YANG mode it is sort of like defining HTTP to only convey =
HTML to the exclusion of PDF. We=E2=80=99re defining an attestation =
protocol that can only move one kind of attestation even though we have =
consensus on what the other one looks like.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>It seems relatively simple =
to add EAT support (or promise to add EAT support). Pretty sure I heard =
Henk agree to add it.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>Thus, I am opposed to =
adoption with the current TPM-only draft. I=E2=80=99d be OK with the =
current draft and a promise to add EAT to =
it.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>LL<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div><=
/div></div></div></blockquote></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div></div></body></html>
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From: Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net>
To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] my hack attempt at a RATS icon
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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] What's to EAT? - terminology clarification
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Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2019 22:55:44 +0000
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From: Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>
To: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
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Thread-Topic: [Rats] What's to EAT? - terminology clarification
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Subject: Re: [Rats] What's to EAT? - terminology clarification
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From: Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>
To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] What's to EAT?
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Subject: Re: [Rats] What's to EAT?
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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
To: Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] What's to EAT? - terminology clarification
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From: Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>
To: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
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Thread-Topic: [Rats] What's to EAT? - terminology clarification
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Subject: Re: [Rats] What's to EAT? - terminology clarification
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From: Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>
To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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From: Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>
To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
To: Michael Richardson <mcr@sandelman.ca>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: YANG fills a gap that is similar to what OpenAPI/RAML fills?
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Subject: [Rats] YANG fills a gap that is similar to what OpenAPI/RAML fills?
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From: Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
CC: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, "Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>, "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" <ncamwing@cisco.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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From: "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>
To: Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow=40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] my hack attempt at a RATS icon
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Subject: Re: [Rats] my hack attempt at a RATS icon
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From: Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/0rfKpN47WUp5Nmk9Gh-EIi2QICY>
Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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From: "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>
To: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] What's to EAT? - terminology clarification
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Subject: Re: [Rats] What's to EAT? - terminology clarification
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From nobody Tue Nov 12 20:08:57 2019
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Subject: [Rats] FIDO TPM attestation
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Here=E2=80=99s evidence that remote TPM attestation is not just for =
routers and is used in non-YANG environments: =
https://fidoalliance.org/specs/fido-v2.0-ps-20150904/fido-key-attestation-=
v2.0-ps-20150904.html#tpm-attestation.

In non-TPM FIDO attestation, the whole attester is in the TEE or such. =
In TPM FIDO attestation only the key storage and signing is in the TPM. =
There is reliance on components outside of the TPM for the security of =
the attestation, so it isn=E2=80=99t the preferred form.

This is a reason to consider the TPM Token I=E2=80=99ve mentioned. It =
would allow remote TPM-based attestation to be used anywhere there is a =
TPM for use cases beyond routers and YANG.

LL=


From nobody Tue Nov 12 23:12:52 2019
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Subject: Re: [Rats] What's to EAT? - terminology clarification
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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On 2019-11-13 4:21 a.m., Laurence Lundblade wrote:
> Here’s three possible versions of the RATS YANG Module:
> 2) As is today + EAT transport. There’s separation of transport from
> token format for EAT, but not for TPM attestation

So, this YANG model (which an abstraction of an RPC mechanism of
RESTCONF, etc.) would have one or more leaves from which a token could
be collected by a read operation.

Is it arbitrary or specific?
Just whatever token the device happens to be able to provide?  JSON/JWT
or CBOR/CWT? Both?
Or do you want a series of leafs, one per claim type, which returns an
EAT when that claim filled in?
Do you want to support combinations of claims? 
How is a freshness nonce provided for the EAT?  Do we write to another
leaf?
If so, are there other any other leafs that are writeable?  Will you
write the security considerations section for that part?
Is it okay for the people who'd like to do things with TPM devices to
wait an extra 2-3 years while we sort these things out?

> 3) Full separation of transport from attestation token.  The RATS YANG
> modules focuses on transport
>
> I want a commitment to 2) or 3) for adoption. I agree that RATS should
> support some YANG-based means for attestation for routers.

Wanting to have a transport for EAT tokens doesn't mean that we have to
have the TPM YANG model support EAT.
It's like you are demanding that the *HTTP* protocol spec must support
youtube URLs.



From nobody Wed Nov 13 03:04:50 2019
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To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
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From: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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On 2019-11-13 1:56 a.m., Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>
> Got that one totally wrong. I even knew everything you describe about YANG.
>
> I still think it is better if we just stick to EAT / CWT / JWT claims described with CDDL as the way we define claims in RATS, except for a few TPM-specific claims. 

Nothing I've said is opposed to that.
I rather agree.  I don't think that EAT is complex enough to require a
definition in YANG.

But, that also has nothing to do with whether we'd need a YANG signing
standard if we defined them in YANG.
We wouldn't, because we'd be signing JSON, CBOR (or XML if someone
insisted) using JSOE and COSE.


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From: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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On 2019-11-12 4:28 p.m., Henk Birkholz wrote:
> Hi Laurence,
>
> maybe I lack the required background knowledge about YANG here. My
> question is the following: Is it in-scope for a YANG modules (which
> typically have a well-defined semantic scope for each statement) to
> convey opaque EATs via a single statement. Or is it necessary to
> create YANG statements for each well-defined EAT Claim?

Mostly, i want to answer that: It's not a well formed question.
Yes, we can have a YANG leaf called "eat" that is of type binary, and
returns some serialization of a EAT.
But, I don't think it does anything at all useful.

Yes, we can define each claim type in terms of YANG (describing the data
in YANG types, so "uptime" would have some kind of interval value, and
boottime would have a date type), and then we could use YANG groupings
to build composite sets of claims that when serialized as a group, would
represent a single token.  We have to do this for each use case I
think.  So users of each use case would wind up with their own profile
document, and we'd probably share no code at all.
With care and a lot of fore-thought the result could be less destructive
than the disaster that
X500->509->509v3->PKIX->six-broken-profiles-for-specific-applications
has given us.  Less destructive in the way that hurricanes tend to be
less destructive than asteroid strikes.

I have no interest in going that way.


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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module
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On 2019-11-13 2:35 a.m., Laurence Lundblade wrote:
> An EAT would show up as a single statement in the RATS YANG module.
> The EAT would be opaque in the RATS YANG module. The RATS work group
> would not author any YANG to describe the claims described in the EAT
> document.=C2=A0
>
> The attester side implementation of this would:
>
>   * Have code that creates CWT/COSE/CBOR formatted EAT tokens. This
>     would probably be new code. Could also be JWT/JOSE/JSON.
>   * Not need a TPM
>   * Probably re use some existing libraries (JSON or XML or such) to
>     implement what is described in the RATS YANG Module. That would
>     not be anything to do with claims, so this part would exist
>     primarily transport the opaque EAT.
>

And the Attester would then use RESTCONF to ....

Please fill this sentence, because that's what having EATs in a YANG
(RPC, data-in-motion) module means.



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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 07:04:40PM +0800, Michael Richardson wrote:
>=20
>=20
> On 2019-11-13 1:56 a.m., Laurence Lundblade wrote:
> >
> > Got that one totally wrong. I even knew everything you describe about Y=
ANG.
> >
> > I still think it is better if we just stick to EAT / CWT / JWT claims d=
escribed with CDDL as the way we define claims in RATS, except for a few TP=
M-specific claims.=20
>=20
> Nothing I've said is opposed to that.
> I rather agree.=A0 I don't think that EAT is complex enough to require a
> definition in YANG.
>=20
> But, that also has nothing to do with whether we'd need a YANG signing
> standard if we defined them in YANG.
> We wouldn't, because we'd be signing JSON, CBOR (or XML if someone
> insisted) using JSOE and COSE.
>

I am still confused but so far for me it may make sense to have the
following:

- A YANG defined transport for "tokens" which likely treats tokens as
  opaque objects.

- A way to include arbitrary YANG defined data as claims in some form
  of "tokens" that can carry YANG defined data. There is lots of stuff
  defined in YANG models that may be reused as claims.

- Whether we need a YANG defined "token" format is unclear to me. It
  is also unclear to me why we would need it specifically for TPMs.

While there is a lot of talk here about different kinds of "token"
recently, I note that this term is not defined in
draft-birkholz-rats-architecture-03.txt nor in
draft-thaler-rats-architecture-01.txt.

/js

--=20
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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On 2019-11-13 3:41 a.m., Eric Voit (evoit) wrote:
>
> With YANG, it is possible to support both opaque transport of
> information, as well as extracting that opaque information from a chip
> contained within the attester.  We will need both supported. 
>
>  
>
> For an example of why, consider a local Wireless Access Point which
> gets signed GPS location from a chip:
>
>   * The Wireless Access Point will need to understand the GPS location
>     because it might only legally be allowed to turn on various radio
>     frequencies based on the country.
>   * Remote devices might use YANG to ask the Wireless Access Point to
>     only send signed proof of location if it turns out they are in a
>     particular geography.
>

Where is the EAT token in this case?
Remember that's it's opaque binary.


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From: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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On 2019-11-13 7:14 p.m., Schönwälder, Jürgen wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 07:04:40PM +0800, Michael Richardson wrote:
>>
>> On 2019-11-13 1:56 a.m., Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>>> Got that one totally wrong. I even knew everything you describe about YANG.
>>>
>>> I still think it is better if we just stick to EAT / CWT / JWT claims described with CDDL as the way we define claims in RATS, except for a few TPM-specific claims. 
>> Nothing I've said is opposed to that.
>> I rather agree.  I don't think that EAT is complex enough to require a
>> definition in YANG.
>>
>> But, that also has nothing to do with whether we'd need a YANG signing
>> standard if we defined them in YANG.
>> We wouldn't, because we'd be signing JSON, CBOR (or XML if someone
>> insisted) using JSOE and COSE.
>>
> I am still confused but so far for me it may make sense to have the
> following:
>
> - A YANG defined transport for "tokens" which likely treats tokens as
>   opaque objects.

okay, and we need this in the same document (the same model?) as the TPM
stuff?

I think that the process works okay for TPM, because we don't really
expect the system that hosts the RESTCONF interface to actually use the
RESTCONF interface to talk to the TPM.  We are just providing a gateway
to it.




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From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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One reason for this - and I tried to express that carefully - is that 
just using the word "token" could be very confusing. We are using 
"Claim" as a synonym to "Assertion" at the moment. Outside of the IETF 
that makes a lot of sense. Inside the IETF, we still have to be a bit 
careful here, as "Claim" is well defined in Web Tokens - and it is a 
data model term (basically: a specific key value representation).

An EAT is a CWT (or JWT, not the point). So both are Claim sets that 
compose tokens. The architecture is intended to be representation (I am 
using this term to dance around the sanity rending 
serialization/encoding words, and to spare Rich some of the pain) 
agnostic. Claims in the architecture are therefore representation 
agnostic, too. Claims in tokens - by RFC definition - are not.

I am not a super big fan of this compromise, but it found consensus, 
removed a blocker, and we were able to progress.

Viele Grüße,

Henk

On 13.11.19 12:14, Schönwälder, Jürgen wrote:
> While there is a lot of talk here about different kinds of "token"
> recently, I note that this term is not defined in
> draft-birkholz-rats-architecture-03.txt nor in
> draft-thaler-rats-architecture-01.txt.


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To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, rats@ietf.org
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From: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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On 2019-11-12 6:10 p.m., Henk Birkholz wrote:
>
>
> On 12.11.19 10:44, Michael Richardson wrote:
>>>>> on one hand, we have to address the overlap between YANG and EAT
>>>>> information elements (statements & Claims) and how to deal with them
>>>>> (one obvious issue, for example, would be potential redundant
>>>>> information model content in two different drafts).
>>>>
>>>
>>> Examples of the same information elements that are used in different
>>> data models via Claims or statements:
>>>
>>> * EAT Time stamp / YANG clock info
>>> * EAT Origination / YANG attestation key cert, or
>>> * EAT Uptime / YANG tpm ticks
>>
>> Those aren't EATs, those are attributes of claims that an EAT could
>> include.
>> If you are saying that we could write a YANG module describing those
>> claims, and that they could be used to describe both claims of an EAT,
>> but also results from a TPM 1.2/2.0 call, then I understand finally.
>
> Yes, that is basically a way to phrase the question, I think.
>
> Specialized questions are: do we need to do that? Do we want to do
> that? Is it technically okay to instead convey opaque EAT blobs via a
> YANG statement?

Sorry to be more pendantic.
Do you mean: Is it okay to convey attributes of claims that an EAT could
include as blobs in a YANG model?
Or you mean: Is it okay to convey a binary serialization (say to CWT) of
an EAT in a binary blog in a YANG model?

(The answer to both is yes.  I don't know if it's useful)


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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/k_2T3LxbZao4MeXLS1mf9qYo3Oc>
Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 07:24:10PM +0800, Michael Richardson wrote:
>=20
>=20
> On 2019-11-13 7:14 p.m., Sch=F6nw=E4lder, J=FCrgen wrote:
> > On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 07:04:40PM +0800, Michael Richardson wrote:
> >>
> >> On 2019-11-13 1:56 a.m., Laurence Lundblade wrote:
> >>> Got that one totally wrong. I even knew everything you describe about=
 YANG.
> >>>
> >>> I still think it is better if we just stick to EAT / CWT / JWT claims=
 described with CDDL as the way we define claims in RATS, except for a few =
TPM-specific claims.=20
> >> Nothing I've said is opposed to that.
> >> I rather agree.=A0 I don't think that EAT is complex enough to require=
 a
> >> definition in YANG.
> >>
> >> But, that also has nothing to do with whether we'd need a YANG signing
> >> standard if we defined them in YANG.
> >> We wouldn't, because we'd be signing JSON, CBOR (or XML if someone
> >> insisted) using JSOE and COSE.
> >>
> > I am still confused but so far for me it may make sense to have the
> > following:
> >
> > - A YANG defined transport for "tokens" which likely treats tokens as
> >   opaque objects.
>=20
> okay, and we need this in the same document (the same model?) as the TPM
> stuff?

Likely not.
=20
> I think that the process works okay for TPM, because we don't really
> expect the system that hosts the RESTCONF interface to actually use the
> RESTCONF interface to talk to the TPM.=A0 We are just providing a gateway
> to it.

So which applications are using this RESTCONF interface? Can I somehow
relate this back to the architecture models? Henk's doc seems to be
telling me that the idea is that $something likes to retrieve
"evidence" by invoking YANG RPCs. So what is $something and why is
the evidence TPM specific?

/js

--=20
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>


From nobody Wed Nov 13 03:39:31 2019
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To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, <rats@ietf.org>
References: <8B173958-FC2A-4D1D-A81C-F324AB632CD7@cisco.com> <147F9159-6055-4E55-ABDC-43DFE3498BF1@island-resort.com> <ce5f8206-74dc-36bb-0093-a93045d5c67f@sit.fraunhofer.de> <0A7E3A4F-8534-4E98-BCB7-1454E07699F4@island-resort.com> <C3AE2645-49C8-4313-BCED-02FEB576B614@cisco.com> <1C8A1884-A37D-45E3-8C11-2FC5A083B245@island-resort.com> <ba12a686-1b34-21a3-388c-bbe01c01a408@sandelman.ca> <1DFA7D52-7294-4705-9407-C34F5BC82EA6@cisco.com> <5f57dd25-f561-e07d-4b24-fef05627bac9@sit.fraunhofer.de> <c61b3ccd-6427-5801-c149-4e93af5c9fb1@sandelman.ca> <0eb003f7-34c3-af36-74ac-097841d2ac6c@sit.fraunhofer.de> <c3b7d860-b3c2-e9ab-f349-4a73619d90f7@sandelman.ca> <23b47242-cb99-2e86-67b3-beb7e0e51599@sit.fraunhofer.de> <330ab612-ab92-809e-4c22-ac3814ce117c@sandelman.ca>
From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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For convenience of some readers, please find the reply at the bottom.

On 13.11.19 12:28, Michael Richardson wrote:
> 
> 
> On 2019-11-12 6:10 p.m., Henk Birkholz wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 12.11.19 10:44, Michael Richardson wrote:
>>>>>> on one hand, we have to address the overlap between YANG and EAT
>>>>>> information elements (statements & Claims) and how to deal with them
>>>>>> (one obvious issue, for example, would be potential redundant
>>>>>> information model content in two different drafts).
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Examples of the same information elements that are used in different
>>>> data models via Claims or statements:
>>>>
>>>> * EAT Time stamp / YANG clock info
>>>> * EAT Origination / YANG attestation key cert, or
>>>> * EAT Uptime / YANG tpm ticks
>>>
>>> Those aren't EATs, those are attributes of claims that an EAT could
>>> include.
>>> If you are saying that we could write a YANG module describing those
>>> claims, and that they could be used to describe both claims of an EAT,
>>> but also results from a TPM 1.2/2.0 call, then I understand finally.
>>
>> Yes, that is basically a way to phrase the question, I think.
>>
>> Specialized questions are: do we need to do that? Do we want to do
>> that? Is it technically okay to instead convey opaque EAT blobs via a
>> YANG statement?
> 
> Sorry to be more pendantic.
> Do you mean: Is it okay to convey attributes of claims that an EAT could
> include as blobs in a YANG model?
> Or you mean: Is it okay to convey a binary serialization (say to CWT) of
> an EAT in a binary blog in a YANG model?
> 
> (The answer to both is yes.  I don't know if it's useful)
> 

Isn't that supposedly my job?

To the point. I meant: Is it okay to convey a binary serialization (say 
to CWT) of an EAT in a binary blog in a YANG model?

Why am I asking that? (well, actually now you did)

YANG modules thrive on well defined semantics for each statement. I just 
want to make sure that it is okay to convey an unknown composition of 
Claims (opaque semantics) via the web token format in a YANG module 
statement.

Laurence brought up a good example, I think. If "Identity Document" is 
good enough. Probably "Attestation Evidence" is good enough, too.

To comment on Michael's quote: Do "we need this in the same document 
(the same model?) as the TPM stuff?". I think "need" would be a very 
strong word here and therefore I would not recommend to make it 
mandatory and impose more code on YANG datastores/rpcs.

Viele Grüße,

Henk


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From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sch=F6nw=E4lder=2C_J=FCrgen?= <J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
CC: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
Thread-Index: AQHVmhIl8/lytau3hU+AhCwtIdg/0aeI8tQAgAADGYCAAAVngA==
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 12:25:21PM +0100, Henk Birkholz wrote:
> One reason for this - and I tried to express that carefully - is that jus=
t
> using the word "token" could be very confusing. We are using "Claim" as a
> synonym to "Assertion" at the moment. Outside of the IETF that makes a lo=
t
> of sense. Inside the IETF, we still have to be a bit careful here, as
> "Claim" is well defined in Web Tokens - and it is a data model term
> (basically: a specific key value representation).

I looked into JWT and I think I roughly know what they mean by claim.
Now we have "assertion" (also not defined in your architecture draft).
Hmm.
=20
> An EAT is a CWT (or JWT, not the point). So both are Claim sets that comp=
ose
> tokens. The architecture is intended to be representation (I am using thi=
s
> term to dance around the sanity rending serialization/encoding words, and=
 to
> spare Rich some of the pain) agnostic. Claims in the architecture are
> therefore representation agnostic, too. Claims in tokens - by RFC definit=
ion
> - are not.

To me, it seemed like in JWT, we have 'sets of claims' and then these
claim sets are serialized into a string representation ('serialized
sets of claims') and the serialization is finally digitally signed and
encrypted, giving us a token. This works for me.

The notion of "claim sets that compose token" confuses me. If I compose
token, I get a "set of tokens". Yes, indirectly I get also a union(?)
of the claim sets included in the tokens.

Anyway, we need to get terminology worked out or we will not
understand what we are doing or worse we agree on something but
people interpret the agreement differently...

> I am not a super big fan of this compromise, but it found consensus, remo=
ved
> a blocker, and we were able to progress.

Progress is when we all agree on the same thing.

/js

--=20
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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Please find comments and replies in-line.

On 13.11.19 12:44, Schönwälder, Jürgen wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 12:25:21PM +0100, Henk Birkholz wrote:
>> One reason for this - and I tried to express that carefully - is that just
>> using the word "token" could be very confusing. We are using "Claim" as a
>> synonym to "Assertion" at the moment. Outside of the IETF that makes a lot
>> of sense. Inside the IETF, we still have to be a bit careful here, as
>> "Claim" is well defined in Web Tokens - and it is a data model term
>> (basically: a specific key value representation).
> 
> I looked into JWT and I think I roughly know what they mean by claim.
> Now we have "assertion" (also not defined in your architecture draft).
> Hmm.

Yes. I am sorry it is this way. If you have a look at ITU-T 1252 Section 
6.6 (free reference here: 
https://www.itu.int/SG-CP/example_docs/ITU-T-REC/ITU-T-REC_E.pdf) it is 
not that bad. But that is "outside IETF". Not every Attestation 
Evidence, Endorsement or (let's not call it Reference Value to address 
Dave's comment, but) Appraisal Policy? is using "Web Token Claims", they 
all use Assertions. We will add text that highlights that in the scope 
of the architecture these are synonyms and not the Web Token Claims.

>   
>> An EAT is a CWT (or JWT, not the point). So both are Claim sets that compose
>> tokens. The architecture is intended to be representation (I am using this
>> term to dance around the sanity rending serialization/encoding words, and to
>> spare Rich some of the pain) agnostic. Claims in the architecture are
>> therefore representation agnostic, too. Claims in tokens - by RFC definition
>> - are not.
> 
> To me, it seemed like in JWT, we have 'sets of claims' and then these
> claim sets are serialized into a string representation ('serialized
> sets of claims') and the serialization is finally digitally signed and
> encrypted, giving us a token. This works for me.
> 
> The notion of "claim sets that compose token" confuses me. If I compose
> token, I get a "set of tokens". Yes, indirectly I get also a union(?)
> of the claim sets included in the tokens.

Bad wording. Readability. My weak spot as it seems. What I meant was 
that (literally) a set of Claims in a JSON object compose a Web Token. 
Very simple nothing more :) I think we mean the same. Please correct me, 
if I am wrong.

> 
> Anyway, we need to get terminology worked out or we will not
> understand what we are doing or worse we agree on something but
> people interpret the agreement differently...

We are in wild agreement here.

> 
>> I am not a super big fan of this compromise, but it found consensus, removed
>> a blocker, and we were able to progress.
> 
> Progress is when we all agree on the same thing.

There was. At some point. If it is not anymore, we can make this an 
issue in the upcoming converged architecture I-D.

> 
> /js
> 

Viele Grüße,

Henk


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Subject: Re: [Rats] my hack attempt at a RATS icon
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On 2019-11-13 9:03 a.m., Salz, Rich wrote:
> Is the rat clip-art public domain?

Thanks for asking!
Yes, I try to be meticulous when I'm grabbing artwork from the Internet.
I have a script that wget's stuff and saves it to "credits.txt" so that
I have a record!

I thought clker had explicit CC statements for each item, but they say
things are public domain.
(Which actually means that their terms of use are null and void. 
Stallman figured that out 40 years ago)

Anyway, here are the components:
http://www.clker.com/clipart-grey-greedy-rat.html
http://www.clker.com/clipart-sniper-optic.html 

Given that I put some public domain stuff together, I get to assert a
copyright on the collection if I want.
So, I'd use:  Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International



From nobody Wed Nov 13 06:00:28 2019
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From: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 08:59:48 -0500
Message-ID: <CAHbuEH6pn+ypyE=qMq5PLecDgugOo7+rBUho8-Hb29WT2Y5X6w@mail.gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] my hack attempt at a RATS icon
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Clever, but what about the people that hate rats?  I try to dis-associate
when I think of the working group.  Are there any cute rat images or one
that is white?

Thanks!
Kathleen

On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 7:10 AM Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
wrote:

>
>
> On 2019-11-13 9:03 a.m., Salz, Rich wrote:
> > Is the rat clip-art public domain?
>
> Thanks for asking!
> Yes, I try to be meticulous when I'm grabbing artwork from the Internet.
> I have a script that wget's stuff and saves it to "credits.txt" so that
> I have a record!
>
> I thought clker had explicit CC statements for each item, but they say
> things are public domain.
> (Which actually means that their terms of use are null and void.
> Stallman figured that out 40 years ago)
>
> Anyway, here are the components:
> http://www.clker.com/clipart-grey-greedy-rat.html
> http://www.clker.com/clipart-sniper-optic.html
>
> Given that I put some public domain stuff together, I get to assert a
> copyright on the collection if I want.
> So, I'd use:  Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>


-- 

Best regards,
Kathleen

--0000000000004df53a05973ac977
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Clever, but what about the people that hate rats?=C2=A0 I =
try to dis-associate when I think of the working group.=C2=A0 Are there any=
 cute rat images or one that is white?<div><br></div><div>Thanks!</div><div=
>Kathleen</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=
=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 7:10 AM Michael Richardson &lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:mcr%2Bietf@sandelman.ca">mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca</a>&gt; wrote:=
<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8=
ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
<br>
On 2019-11-13 9:03 a.m., Salz, Rich wrote:<br>
&gt; Is the rat clip-art public domain?<br>
<br>
Thanks for asking!<br>
Yes, I try to be meticulous when I&#39;m grabbing artwork from the Internet=
.<br>
I have a script that wget&#39;s stuff and saves it to &quot;credits.txt&quo=
t; so that<br>
I have a record!<br>
<br>
I thought clker had explicit CC statements for each item, but they say<br>
things are public domain.<br>
(Which actually means that their terms of use are null and void.=C2=A0<br>
Stallman figured that out 40 years ago)<br>
<br>
Anyway, here are the components:<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.clker.com/clipart-grey-greedy-rat.html" rel=3D"norefe=
rrer" target=3D"_blank">http://www.clker.com/clipart-grey-greedy-rat.html</=
a><br>
<a href=3D"http://www.clker.com/clipart-sniper-optic.html" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">http://www.clker.com/clipart-sniper-optic.html</a>=C2=
=A0<br>
<br>
Given that I put some public domain stuff together, I get to assert a<br>
copyright on the collection if I want.<br>
So, I&#39;d use:=C2=A0 Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
RATS mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">RATS@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"=
 class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div>Best regards,</div><di=
v>Kathleen</div></div></div>

--0000000000004df53a05973ac977--


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From: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 09:00:36 -0500
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Subject: Re: [Rats] my hack attempt at a RATS icon
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--0000000000001c892705973accbf
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Oh, and I know a few artists.... not sure if any would be willing if a
cuter image is not available.

On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 8:59 AM Kathleen Moriarty <
kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

> Clever, but what about the people that hate rats?  I try to dis-associate
> when I think of the working group.  Are there any cute rat images or one
> that is white?
>
> Thanks!
> Kathleen
>
> On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 7:10 AM Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On 2019-11-13 9:03 a.m., Salz, Rich wrote:
>> > Is the rat clip-art public domain?
>>
>> Thanks for asking!
>> Yes, I try to be meticulous when I'm grabbing artwork from the Internet.
>> I have a script that wget's stuff and saves it to "credits.txt" so that
>> I have a record!
>>
>> I thought clker had explicit CC statements for each item, but they say
>> things are public domain.
>> (Which actually means that their terms of use are null and void.
>> Stallman figured that out 40 years ago)
>>
>> Anyway, here are the components:
>> http://www.clker.com/clipart-grey-greedy-rat.html
>> http://www.clker.com/clipart-sniper-optic.html
>>
>> Given that I put some public domain stuff together, I get to assert a
>> copyright on the collection if I want.
>> So, I'd use:  Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> RATS mailing list
>> RATS@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>>
>
>
> --
>
> Best regards,
> Kathleen
>


-- 

Best regards,
Kathleen

--0000000000001c892705973accbf
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Oh, and I know a few artists.... not sure if any would be =
willing if a cuter image is not available.</div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 8:59 AM K=
athleen Moriarty &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com">ka=
thleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(2=
04,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Clever, but what about the p=
eople that hate rats?=C2=A0 I try to dis-associate when I think of the work=
ing group.=C2=A0 Are there any cute rat images or one that is white?<div><b=
r></div><div>Thanks!</div><div>Kathleen</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_=
quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 7:10 A=
M Michael Richardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr%2Bietf@sandelman.ca" target=
=3D"_blank">mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
<br>
On 2019-11-13 9:03 a.m., Salz, Rich wrote:<br>
&gt; Is the rat clip-art public domain?<br>
<br>
Thanks for asking!<br>
Yes, I try to be meticulous when I&#39;m grabbing artwork from the Internet=
.<br>
I have a script that wget&#39;s stuff and saves it to &quot;credits.txt&quo=
t; so that<br>
I have a record!<br>
<br>
I thought clker had explicit CC statements for each item, but they say<br>
things are public domain.<br>
(Which actually means that their terms of use are null and void.=C2=A0<br>
Stallman figured that out 40 years ago)<br>
<br>
Anyway, here are the components:<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.clker.com/clipart-grey-greedy-rat.html" rel=3D"norefe=
rrer" target=3D"_blank">http://www.clker.com/clipart-grey-greedy-rat.html</=
a><br>
<a href=3D"http://www.clker.com/clipart-sniper-optic.html" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">http://www.clker.com/clipart-sniper-optic.html</a>=C2=
=A0<br>
<br>
Given that I put some public domain stuff together, I get to assert a<br>
copyright on the collection if I want.<br>
So, I&#39;d use:=C2=A0 Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
RATS mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">RATS@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"=
><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div>Best regards,</div><div>Kathleen</div></div></di=
v>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"=
 class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div>Best regards,</div><di=
v>Kathleen</div></div></div>

--0000000000001c892705973accbf--


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From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
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Cc: "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" <ncamwing@cisco.com>, "Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
To: Dave Thaler <dthaler=40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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Understood and agree with your firewall and privacy explanations.

> On Nov 12, 2019, at 4:56 PM, Dave Thaler =
<dthaler=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>=20
> (By =E2=80=9CFirmware=E2=80=9D I meant what you call =
=E2=80=9Cvirtualization=E2=80=9D, not just Microsoft VBS in particular, =
but just the notion that a hypervisor or firmware provides some level of =
attestation guarantees for higher layer components.)


I think of firmware as some very basic boot-type software that is in ROM =
or in flash memory. When updated, it is usually by some re flashing or =
factory reset operation.  A hypervisor is definitely not what I think of =
as firmware.

LL=

--Apple-Mail=_2A131816-B1BF-467D-B02A-BE22B16C87FB
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Understood and agree with your firewall and privacy =
explanations.<br class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Nov 12, 2019, at 4:56 PM, Dave Thaler =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dthaler=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org" =
class=3D"">dthaler=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(31, 73, 125); color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: 14.666666984558105px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; display: inline =
!important; float: none;" class=3D"">(By =E2=80=9CFirmware=E2=80=9D I =
meant what you call =E2=80=9Cvirtualization=E2=80=9D, not just Microsoft =
VBS in particular, but just the notion that a hypervisor or =
firmware&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; font-size: =
14.666666984558105px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: =
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; display: inline =
!important; float: none;" class=3D"">provides some level of attestation =
guarantees for higher layer =
components.)</span></div></blockquote></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I think of firmware as some very basic =
boot-type software that is in ROM or in flash memory. When updated, it =
is usually by some re flashing or factory reset operation. &nbsp;A =
hypervisor is definitely not what I think of as firmware.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">LL</div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_2A131816-B1BF-467D-B02A-BE22B16C87FB--


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From: Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net>
To: Dave Thaler <dthaler=40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Thomas Hardjono <hardjono@mit.edu>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay <jmfmckay@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: Comments on draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-00
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/jJXUctvfo22pOK1AMRtJit10u5c>
Subject: Re: [Rats] Comments on draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-00
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Hi Dave,
  I'd like to respond to two points in your original message.

  I think you asked (indirectly) why RIV calls for separate keys for attest=
ation and identity.  That's due to a particular TPM anti-spoofing security =
principal...
  Attestation evidence is collected entirely inside the TPM.  In the conven=
tional Measured Boot flow, the rot of trust measures the first mutable comp=
onent, which then measures the second, and so on in a chain.  Each time a m=
easurement is taken, the TPM "extends" the value into a TPM PCR.  Net resul=
t is that the measurement showing that a section of code is out of whack is=
 taken before that code is run, i.e., the hack doesn't have a chance to man=
ipulate the end result, because it's measured by something trusted first.
  To preserve that property, the "quote" that reports the accumulated PCRs =
must be signed inside the TPM, so that the attesting system must transfer t=
he result to the verifier without modification.  Net result is that, even i=
f the attesting system is hacked, it can't pretend to be unmodified by clea=
ning up the quote before it goes to the verifier.
  But for that to be true, it must be impossible for the attesting system t=
o forge a valid quote.  And for that to be true, it must be impossible for =
the attesting system to make up a quote from nothing, and convince the TPM =
to sign it with the attestation key.
  And identity key, on the other hand, must sign whatever it's asked to sig=
n.  The Identity Key signature doesn't say anything about what it was that =
got signed, its purpose is to prove that, what ever it was, it got signed b=
y the specific TPM.  So there's nothing to prevent an attesting system from=
 making up a quote, and having it signed by an identity key.  So that leads=
 to a desire for separate keys.
  But  you still have to prove that the quote comes from the same device as=
 the identity (the so-called Asokan man in the middle attack).  The TPM has=
 a mechanism to prove that two keys are resident in the same TPM, but RIV t=
akes a simpler approach, but asking whoever provisions the keys (the manufa=
cturer by default) to make the attestation key and identity keys at the sam=
e time, and put the same identity information into the corresponding two ce=
rtificates.  So the verifier can look at the identity certificate and the a=
ttestation certificate, check that they are both valid signatures from the =
appropriate authority (e.g. the manufacturer), check that they have the sam=
e model and device serial number, and from there, know that the attestation=
 result originated on the box that they're trying to attest.

  There is a secondary detail that makes the issue a bit less black-and-whi=
te.  For TPM1.2, the roles of attestation and identity keys simply must be =
separate, end of story.  In TPM2.0, it's possible to use one key for both, =
with a tiny probability of something going wrong...  that is, an attestatio=
n key can sign an external object, as long as it doesn't appear to spoof a =
quote.  But cryptographers usually then argue that good key management shou=
ld use separate keys for separate functions, and we note that some Identity=
 protocols require keys capable of encryption as well as signing, and so to=
 simplify the cases, we ended up simply keeping them separate.

  Apologies for the long-winded response, but I hope that helps clarify the=
 oblique reference in the RIV doc to two keys for anti-spoofing".  I can up=
date the doc.

  There was also a question about scope of the doc.  There is actually a re=
ason that it's been left a bit ambiguous at TCG.  The doc is currently focu=
sed on YANG as the external interface for attestation.  That's clearly aime=
d at networking gear - I don't think anyone else uses YANG.  Other applicat=
ions, such as attesting the state of large embedded controllers in industri=
al gear, would follow the same workflow, but would undoubtedly want some ot=
her protocol.  It would be a simple job to extend the doc to those use case=
s by adding additional protocols, although there are none specifically in t=
he pipeline that I know of.
  The other focus for the doc is TPM.  Of course there are other roots of t=
rust that might be able to fill the same role, and might use the same workf=
low.  That's a tougher job to estimate, so we declared it out-of-scope for =
now.
  Oh, and the third restriction, "things that don't sleep"... this is defin=
itely not fundamental.  The TPM clearly can be used in PCs that sleep, but =
getting in and out of sleep and hibernate states is complicated.  Large emb=
edded devices typically have no application for sleep and hibernate, so we =
declared it out of scope for RIV.  If someone wants to add it back in, ther=
e are no fundamental limitations.

  For the RATS context, I'm fine with revising the doc to make the scope cl=
earer.

  Let me know if this addresses your questions...

  And Henk, Ned, let me know if I'm misrepresenting keying policies!
Thanks
/guy







Juniper Business Use Only
From: Guy Fedorkow
Sent: Friday, November 8, 2019 11:10 AM
To: Dave Thaler <dthaler=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Cc: rats@ietf.org; Thomas Hardjono <hardjono@mit.edu>; Smith, Ned <ned.smit=
h@intel.com>; Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>; Jessica Fitz=
gerald-McKay <jmfmckay@gmail.com>
Subject: RE: Comments on draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-00

Hi Dave,
  I'll look at the title and scope again.  Within TCG, we'd left it a bit a=
mbiguous, as there are a number of applications that it would fit without t=
oo much work.  But for RATS, I'm fine with being more careful to delineate =
where the work as written fits.
  We'll think of a more-formal way to say this, but as Jessica said, the ac=
tual scope of the doc is "things with a TPM that use YANG, and don't do sle=
ep/wake cycles".
  I assume this can't be changed now given that the IETF106 deadline has pa=
ssed, but there will be another revision one way or another in which I can =
address your other comments.
  Thanks
/guy






Juniper Business Use Only
From: Dave Thaler <dthaler=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org<mailto:dthaler=
=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>>
Sent: Wednesday, November 6, 2019 8:18 PM
To: Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net<mailto:gfedorkow@juniper.net>>
Cc: rats@ietf.org<mailto:rats@ietf.org>; Thomas Hardjono <hardjono@mit.edu<=
mailto:hardjono@mit.edu>>; Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com<mailto:ned.smith=
@intel.com>>; Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de<mailto:henk.bi=
rkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>; Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay <jmfmckay@gmail.com<ma=
ilto:jmfmckay@gmail.com>>
Subject: RE: Comments on draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-00

And a couple of additional comments on -01 (the subject had -00 in it and p=
robably shouldn't have)


  *   Since section 1 scopes the definition of RIV to certain types of netw=
ork equipment, I find the term RIV to be

overly broad, since it has a name that implies it is remote attestation for=
 all purposes, which it's apparently not.

I would recommend that, like the title of the doc, the term RIV be narrowed=
 significantly by adding words

to indicate its narrow scope.



  *   Section 4 says:

In light of these
   requirements for protecting the privacy of users of the network, the
   Network Equipment must identify itself, and its boot configuration
   and measured device state (for example, PCR values), to the
   Equipment's Administrator, so there's no uncertainty as to what
   function each device and configuration is configured to carry out .



RIV specifically addresses the collection information from enterprise
   network devices by an enterprise network.

               However, those two sentences appear to be contradictory.   T=
he first one talks about
               the "Equipment's Administrator" whereas the second one talks=
 about "an enterprise network".
               Unless you further narrow the scope in section 1.5 to only c=
ases where those are the same,
               you should not assume that the "Equipment's Administrator" a=
nd the "enterprise network"
               are the same organization.


  *   Another point on the same text in section 4 is that it talks about "b=
oot" configuration and then says
"there's no uncertainty as to what function each device and configuration i=
s configured to carry out".

In order to have "no uncertainty" you either have to remove the word "boot"=
, so that it's not just

"boot" configuration, but configuration in general, or else constrain your =
definition of "embedded"

to cases where all configuration and functionality is fixed at boot time.  =
That's common in embedded,

but not universal, depending on your definition of embedded.  Currently you=
 only define "embedded"

as "where the device manufacturer ships the software image for the device"

but that by itself doesn't mean all functionality is fixed at boot time.  E=
.g., the configuration might be

separate from the software image, and might even be obtained after boot, un=
less you scope down your

definition of "embedded".



  *   Section 5 says

"TPM practices require that these keys be different, as a way of
   ensuring that a general-purpose signing key cannot be used to spoof
   an attestation quote."

and

"To prevent spoofing, the quote generated inside the TPM must by
   signed by a key that's different from the DevID, called an
   Attestation Key (AK)."



The claim that a split is necessary to prevent spoofing is non-obvious (I k=
now I didn't follow it).  I would recommend either

  1.  Delete the text about spoofing and just say that's how TPM works, or
  2.  Provide an explanation, or
  3.  Reference a publically accessible document that has the explanation.

Dave

From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf =
Of Dave Thaler
Sent: Wednesday, November 6, 2019 4:26 PM
To: Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org<mailto:gfedorkow=
=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>>
Cc: rats@ietf.org<mailto:rats@ietf.org>; Thomas Hardjono <hardjono@mit.edu<=
mailto:hardjono@mit.edu>>; Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com<mailto:ned.smith=
@intel.com>>; Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de<mailto:henk.bi=
rkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>; Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay <jmfmckay@gmail.com<ma=
ilto:jmfmckay@gmail.com>>
Subject: [Rats] Comments on draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-=
00

[updated subject line]

Here's some comments on draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-00, =
in addition to the one in the thread copied at bottom...

Section 1.2:

?  o  Platform Identity, the mechanism providing trusted identity, can

  *   reassure network managers that the specific devices they ordered
  *   from authorized manufacturers for attachment to their network are
  *   those that were installed, and that they continue to be present in
  *   their network.  As part of the mechanism for Platform Identity,
  *   cryptographic proof of the identity of the manufacturer is also
  *   provided.

Above is somewhat ambiguous.   When it says "the specific devices", is it t=
alking about device instances
(in the exact serial number or key pair sense), or the same models?   I.e.,=
 I ordered 3 widgets, and I got
three widgets (and not three oranges or something else).  Is this talking a=
bout verifying that they're
widgets, or that they're the precise 3 widgets you're expecting?   I suspec=
t you mean the latter but it's not
clear.   Assuming you do mean instances, then knowing that they're the spec=
ific devices that were ordered
presumes some mechanism for learning the public keys of the devices ordered=
, prior to their arrival, and
this should be called out.

Section 2.1 discusses the model where the verifier communicates directly wi=
th the attested device.
However, it doesn't point out the problems with that model, which is that t=
he attested device will see this
as unsolicited inbound communication, and hence and sort of host firewall-l=
ike behavior will prevent the
interrogation from succeeding.    Section 1.5 already constrains the scope =
to a very narrow scenario, but
it's not sufficient, it has to be constrained further to the scenario where=
 unsolicited inbound communication
is permitted.   Allowing unsolicited inbound communication opens up other p=
otential security and privacy
risks that should be discussed in sections 4 and 5.

Given the narrowness of the applicability, and the security and privacy ris=
ks inherent in the model where
the verifier communicates directly with the attested device, it's not obvio=
us why this is a good direction
to pursue, especially if there might be alternatives that are both more bro=
adly applicable, and more secure/private.

I have no objection if there are good reasons, but the draft doesn't yet pr=
ovide sufficient justification
in my view.

Thanks,
Dave

From: Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org<mailto:gfedork=
ow=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org>>
Sent: Wednesday, November 6, 2019 12:57 PM
To: Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com<mailto:dthaler@microsoft.com>>
Cc: rats@ietf.org<mailto:rats@ietf.org>; Thomas Hardjono <hardjono@mit.edu<=
mailto:hardjono@mit.edu>>; Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com<mailto:ned.smith=
@intel.com>>; Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de<mailto:henk.bi=
rkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>; Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay <jmfmckay@gmail.com<ma=
ilto:jmfmckay@gmail.com>>
Subject: RE: RIV and the RATS architecture

Hi Dave,
  Ok, I suppose the model where the verifier communicates directly with the=
 attested device is a kind of sub-contracted full-service background check.=
  That's ok with me, as long as no one interprets the diagram as meaning th=
at the relying party must somehow insert itself into the exchange between V=
erifier and Attester.

  And I see what you mean about lining up the scope of RIV.  The draft has =
gone through a number of changes as we've tried to disentangle it from TCG =
tribal knowledge.
  I think the scope is set by a couple factors.
  The doc as written is clearly limited to TPM-based systems.  That's certa=
inly not the only way to manage a root of trust, but it's the one that's av=
ailable on a lot of gear already, and it's fairly stable and tightly spec'd=
.  From the TCG side, I'd expect there would be interest in extending the i=
deas to other TCG roots of trust such as DICE, but it seems that should be =
driven out of TCG.

  The limitation to Network Equipment is entirely a matter of expedience.  =
I think the approach would work easily in other embedded applications, alth=
ough YANG is likely a fixation only relevant to networking guys.  Other dom=
ains would presumably need other domain-specific protocols.

  I'll connect with Jessica to see if we can figure out how to align the na=
me and scope a bit better with the rest of the RATS world.

  Thanks
/guy




Juniper Business Use Only
From: Dave Thaler <dthaler=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org<mailto:dthaler=
=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>>
Sent: Monday, November 4, 2019 3:56 PM
To: Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net<mailto:gfedorkow@juniper.net>>
Cc: rats@ietf.org<mailto:rats@ietf.org>; Thomas Hardjono <hardjono@mit.edu<=
mailto:hardjono@mit.edu>>; Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com<mailto:ned.smith=
@intel.com>>; Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de<mailto:henk.bi=
rkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>; Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay <jmfmckay@gmail.com<ma=
ilto:jmfmckay@gmail.com>>
Subject: RE: RIV and the RATS architecture

Hi Guy, sorry for the delay, I was at a conference (Open Source Summit, Con=
fidential Computing Consortium, and Linux Security Summit were all co-locat=
ed) all last week and traveling there/back.

Responses inline below...

From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>> On Behalf =
Of Guy Fedorkow
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2019 12:27 PM
To: Dave Thaler <dthaler=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org<mailto:dthaler=3D=
40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>>
Cc: rats@ietf.org<mailto:rats@ietf.org>; Thomas Hardjono <hardjono@mit.edu<=
mailto:hardjono@mit.edu>>; Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com<mailto:ned.smith=
@intel.com>>; Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de<mailto:henk.bi=
rkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>; Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay <jmfmckay@gmail.com<ma=
ilto:jmfmckay@gmail.com>>
Subject: [Rats] RIV and the RATS architecture

Hi Dave,
  Thanks for your doc https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thaler-rats-archite=
cture-00<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/nam06.safelinks.protection.outl=
ook.com/?url=3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fnam06.safel=
inks.protection.outlook...com*2F*3Furl*3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Ftools.ietf.org*2Fhtm=
l*2Fdraft-thaler-rats-architecture-00*26data*3D02*7C01*7Cdthaler*40microsof=
t.com*7C520adf8cc884437d639508d75e385c4d*7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47=
*7C1*7C0*7C637081468537546960*26sdata*3D20zFPTGCbLybPlTaNB2E6uSb3re0G2bYPGC=
8F9TNXis*3D*26reserved*3D0__*3BJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!8WoA6RjC81c!Rpme4JKWETjO=
w_zisYJRdztjgIgNvTA_HZoPymMV_ggWZP8BkjOlbCzLuKc18WRBFIY*24&data=3D02*7C01*7=
Cdthaler*40microsoft..com*7C1bf26678bca14945d3bd08d763191133*7C72f988bf86f1=
41af91ab2d7cd011db47*7C1*7C0*7C637086831671084329&sdata=3DLo3rkbTEksxPZCDIB=
*2FuCj*2BszeMO4xQuHUxDkOF9DZBk*3D&reserved=3D0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSoqKioqJSUqKi=
oqKioqKiUlKiUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!8WoA6RjC81c!Xn2_O62Wg9lin7aRm0WrBgW70EydD8=
BZFq8Se5MIXVP-bsHRkuSwjYOdlg3eAgtRn20$>.
  Do you have a view as to how the TPM-based attestation described in RIV w=
ould fit with the proposed categorization?
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-=
00<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.co=
m/?url=3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fnam06.safelinks.p=
rotection.outlook.com*2F*3Furl*3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Ftools.ietf.org*2Fhtml*2Fdraf=
t-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-00*26data*3D02*7C01*7Cdthaler*40=
microsoft.com*7C520adf8cc884437d639508d75e385c4d*7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7c=
d011db47*7C1*7C0*7C637081468537556953*26sdata*3DVTByXHpjuEMkojKjjly0i0Bbnvu=
jhB4fIpQaqiPFDKA*3D*26reserved*3D0__*3BJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!8WoA6RjC81c!Rpme=
4JKWETjOw_zisYJRdztjgIgNvTA_HZoPymMV_ggWZP8BkjOlbCzLuKc1fEcZrRQ*24&data=3D0=
2*7C01*7Cdthaler*40microsoft.com*7C1bf26678bca14945d3bd08d763191133*7C72f98=
8bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47*7C1*7C0*7C637086831671084329&sdata=3DW95iVCu0BK=
i3ioryV7ZOngYQnALJEwEgF19Iw6sXTHg*3D&reserved=3D0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSoqKioqJSU=
qKioqKioqKiUlKiUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!8WoA6RjC81c!Xn2_O62Wg9lin7aRm0WrBgW70EydD8=
BZFq8Se5MIXVP-bsHRkuSwjYOdlg3eGnNGpPw$>

Great question. From my reading of draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attes=
tation-00, it's a background check model, as section 2.3 of your doc explai=
ns:
>   3.  A Relying Party, which has access to the Verifier to request
>       attestation and to act on results.

That sentence above is by definition the background check model.
That is, the Attester talks to the Relying Party, the Relying Party then re=
quests a background check by consulting a Verifier,
and will accept whatever answer the Verifier decides.
There are ways where you could use the passport model for network device at=
testation,
but your document only covers the background check model.

  It doesn't seem to be a passport, since the attester only provides raw ev=
idence, not a pre-approved passport

Agreed, from my reading of your document.

  It doesn't seem to be a background check, as it's the verifier that colle=
cts and analyzes the evidence.

If I understand your point here, you're saying that the verifier talks dire=
ctly to the attester (e.g., by querying the yang module), without going bac=
k through the relying party, and that that seemed to you to be different fr=
om a classic "background check" diagram.  Did I get your point correctly?

If so, then I see it as a variation of the background check model, as oppos=
ed to a separate model per se.

  I'm not sure it matters to RIV, as we haven't drawn much distinction betw=
een the relying party and the verifier...  As you say, if they're on the sa=
me machine, the distinction is almost moot.

Agree.

And if they're not, I think the communication is out of scope for RIV (if n=
ot for RATS).

I disagree that it's out of scope for RATS.

I have no opinion on whether it's out of scope for RIV, since I still have =
some confusion on the intended scope of RIV.
I note that your document constrains its scope (in section 1.5) to only TPM=
-based embedded devices, and not other
types of devices.   I couldn't tell if the scope of RIV and the scope of th=
e draft (which does not have RIV in the name, or in
section 1.5) are similar or one is a subset of the other.   Indeed, the tit=
le of the document is far wider than just TPM-based
embedded devices, so in that sense the title doesn't match the scoping in s=
ection 1.5.   Just explaining why there's not
enough information for me to have an opinion on verifier-relying party comm=
unication in RIV.

There can be other network attestation solutions that look quite different =
from the flow in your draft
(and I have no skin in this game, so don't have a bias towards any solution=
 in particular).   For example,
some other solution might involve a RADIUS server being a Verifier, so the =
verifier - relying party communication might
be RADIUS in that example.   There's many ways to construct solutions, and =
so I imagine there's probably multiple
solutions already out there, since the NEA problem is not new even in the I=
ETF (https://tools....ietf.org/wg/nea/<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/n=
am06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2=
Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Ftools.ietf.org*2Fwg*2Fnea*2F__*3B!8WoA6RjC81c!Rpme4JKWET=
jOw_zisYJRdztjgIgNvTA_HZoPymMV_ggWZP8BkjOlbCzLuKc1mSGm10I*24&data=3D02*7C01=
*7Cdthaler*40microsoft.com*7C1bf26678bca14945d3bd08d763191133*7C72f988bf86f=
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7-V0$> has
pointers to RFCs for anyone reading this who's not already aware of it).

  But it would be good ensure the architecture and the applications of it a=
ctually do fit together...

Absolutely.

Dave

  Thanks
/guy






Juniper Business Use Only

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Dave,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; I&#8217;d like to respond to two points in yo=
ur original message.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; I think you asked (indirectly) why RIV calls =
for separate keys for attestation and identity.&nbsp; That&#8217;s due to a=
 particular TPM anti-spoofing security principal&#8230;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; Attestation evidence is collected entirely in=
side the TPM.&nbsp; In the conventional Measured Boot flow, the rot of trus=
t measures the first mutable component, which then measures the second, and=
 so on in a chain.&nbsp; Each time a measurement
 is taken, the TPM &#8220;extends&#8221; the value into a TPM PCR.&nbsp; Ne=
t result is that the measurement showing that a section of code is out of w=
hack is taken before that code is run, i.e., the hack doesn&#8217;t have a =
chance to manipulate the end result, because it&#8217;s measured
 by something trusted first.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; To preserve that property, the &#8220;quote&#=
8221; that reports the accumulated PCRs must be signed
<i>inside</i> the TPM, so that the attesting system must transfer the resul=
t to the verifier without modification.&nbsp; Net result is that, even if t=
he attesting system is hacked, it can&#8217;t pretend to be unmodified by c=
leaning up the quote before it goes to the
 verifier.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; But for that to be true, it must be impossibl=
e for the attesting system to forge a valid quote.&nbsp; And for that to be=
 true, it must be impossible for the attesting system to make up a quote fr=
om nothing, and convince the TPM to sign it
 with the attestation key.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; And identity key, on the other hand, must sig=
n whatever it&#8217;s asked to sign.&nbsp; The Identity Key signature doesn=
&#8217;t say anything about what it was that got signed, its purpose is to =
prove that, what ever it was, it got signed by the specific
 TPM.&nbsp; So there&#8217;s nothing to prevent an attesting system from ma=
king up a quote, and having it signed by an identity key.&nbsp; So that lea=
ds to a desire for separate keys.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; But&nbsp; you still have to prove that the qu=
ote comes from the same device as the identity (the so-called Asokan man in=
 the middle attack).&nbsp; The TPM has a mechanism to prove that two keys a=
re resident in the same TPM, but RIV takes a simpler
 approach, but asking whoever provisions the keys (the manufacturer by defa=
ult) to make the attestation key and identity keys at the same time, and pu=
t the same identity information into the corresponding two certificates.&nb=
sp; So the verifier can look at the identity
 certificate and the attestation certificate, check that they are both vali=
d signatures from the appropriate authority (e.g. the manufacturer), check =
that they have the same model and device serial number, and from there, kno=
w that the attestation result originated
 on the box that they&#8217;re trying to attest.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; There is a secondary detail that makes the is=
sue a bit less black-and-white.&nbsp; For TPM1.2, the roles of attestation =
and identity keys simply must be separate, end of story.&nbsp; In TPM2.0, i=
t&#8217;s possible to use one key for both, with a tiny
 probability of something going wrong&#8230;&nbsp; that is, an attestation =
key can sign an external object, as long as it doesn&#8217;t appear to spoo=
f a quote. &nbsp;But cryptographers usually then argue that good key manage=
ment should use separate keys for separate functions,
 and we note that some Identity protocols require keys capable of encryptio=
n as well as signing, and so to simplify the cases, we ended up simply keep=
ing them separate.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; Apologies for the long-winded response, but I=
 hope that helps clarify the oblique reference in the RIV doc to two keys f=
or anti-spoofing&#8221;.&nbsp; I can update the doc.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; There was also a question about scope of the =
doc. &nbsp;There is actually a reason that it&#8217;s been left a bit ambig=
uous at TCG.&nbsp; The doc is currently focused on YANG as the external int=
erface for attestation.&nbsp; That&#8217;s clearly aimed at networking
 gear &#8211; I don&#8217;t think anyone else uses YANG.&nbsp; Other applic=
ations, such as attesting the state of large embedded controllers in indust=
rial gear, would follow the same workflow, but would undoubtedly want some =
other protocol.&nbsp; It would be a simple job to extend
 the doc to those use cases by adding additional protocols, although there =
are none specifically in the pipeline that I know of.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; The other focus for the doc is TPM.&nbsp; Of =
course there are other roots of trust that might be able to fill the same r=
ole, and might use the same workflow.&nbsp; That&#8217;s a tougher job to e=
stimate, so we declared it out-of-scope for now.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; Oh, and the third restriction, &#8220;things =
that don&#8217;t sleep&#8221;&#8230; this is definitely not fundamental.&nb=
sp; The TPM clearly can be used in PCs that sleep, but getting in and out o=
f sleep and hibernate states is complicated.&nbsp; Large embedded devices
 typically have no application for sleep and hibernate, so we declared it o=
ut of scope for RIV.&nbsp; If someone wants to add it back in, there are no=
 fundamental limitations.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; For the RATS context, I&#8217;m fine with rev=
ising the doc to make the scope clearer.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; Let me know if this addresses your questions&=
#8230;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; And Henk, Ned, let me know if I&#8217;m misre=
presenting keying policies!<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">/guy<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"msipfooter30b3d538" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin:0in;margin=
-bottom:.0001pt;text-align:center">
<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;c=
olor:black">Juniper Business Use Only</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Guy Fedorkow <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 8, 2019 11:10 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Dave Thaler &lt;dthaler=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> rats@ietf.org; Thomas Hardjono &lt;hardjono@mit.edu&gt;; Smith, =
Ned &lt;ned.smith@intel.com&gt;; Henk Birkholz &lt;henk.birkholz@sit.fraunh=
ofer.de&gt;; Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay &lt;jmfmckay@gmail.com&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Comments on draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestat=
ion-00<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Dave,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; I&#8217;ll look at the title and scope again.=
&nbsp; Within TCG, we&#8217;d left it a bit ambiguous, as there are a numbe=
r of applications that it would fit without too much work.&nbsp; But for RA=
TS, I&#8217;m fine with being more careful to delineate where the work
 as written fits.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; We&#8217;ll think of a more-formal way to say=
 this, but as Jessica said, the actual scope of the doc is &#8220;things wi=
th a TPM that use YANG, and don&#8217;t do sleep/wake cycles&#8221;.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;I assume this can&#8217;t be changed now=
 given that the IETF106 deadline has passed, but there will be another revi=
sion one way or another in which I can address your other comments.<o:p></o=
:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; Thanks<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">/guy<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"msipfooter30b3d538" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin:0in;margin=
-bottom:.0001pt;text-align:center">
<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;c=
olor:black">Juniper Business Use Only</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Dave Thaler &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dthal=
er=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org">dthaler=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 6, 2019 8:18 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Guy Fedorkow &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gfedorkow@juniper.net">gfedor=
kow@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org">rats@ietf.org</a>; Thomas Hardj=
ono &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hardjono@mit.edu">hardjono@mit.edu</a>&gt;; Smith=
, Ned &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com">ned.smith@intel.com</a>&gt=
;; Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de">hen=
k.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;;
 Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jmfmckay@gmail.com">jmfmcka=
y@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Comments on draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestat=
ion-00<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">And a couple of additional comments on -01 (the subj=
ect had -00 in it and probably shouldn&#8217;t have)<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo1">Since section 1 scopes the definition of RIV to certain types of netw=
ork equipment, I find the term RIV to be<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph">overly broad, since it has a name that implie=
s it is remote attestation for all purposes, which it&#8217;s apparently no=
t.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph">I would recommend that, like the title of the=
 doc, the term RIV be narrowed significantly by adding words<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph">to indicate its narrow scope.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo1">Section 4 says:<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-left:.5in;text-indent:.25in"><spa=
n style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">In light of these<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; requirements for protecting the privacy of users of the networ=
k, the<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; Network Equipment must identify itself, and its boot configura=
tion<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; and measured device state (for example, PCR values), to the<br=
>
&nbsp;&nbsp; Equipment's Administrator, so there's no uncertainty as to wha=
t<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; function each device and configuration is configured to carry =
out .<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-left:.25in;text-indent:.25in"><sp=
an style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-left:.5in;text-indent:.25in"><spa=
n style=3D"font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">RIV specifically addresses =
the collection information from enterprise<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; network devices by an enterprise network.&nbsp; </span><o:p></=
o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:Consolas=
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; However, those two sentences appear to be =
contradictory.&nbsp;&nbsp; The first one talks about<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp; the &#8220;Equipment&#8217;s Administrator&#8221; whereas the sec=
ond one talks about &#8220;an enterprise network&#8221;.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Unless you further narrow the scope in sec=
tion 1.5 to only cases where those are the same,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; you should not assume that the &#8220;Equi=
pment&#8217;s Administrator&#8221; and the &#8220;enterprise network&#8221;=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; are the same organization.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l0 level1 =
lfo1">Another point on the same text in section 4 is that it talks about &#=
8220;boot&#8221; configuration and then says<br>
&#8220;there&#8217;s no uncertainty as to what function each device and con=
figuration is configured to carry out&#8221;.<o:p></o:p></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph">In order to have &#8220;no uncertainty&#8221;=
 you either have to remove the word &#8220;boot&#8221;, so that it&#8217;s =
not just<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph">&#8220;boot&#8221; configuration, but configu=
ration in general, or else constrain your definition of &#8220;embedded&#82=
21;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph">to cases where all configuration and function=
ality is fixed at boot time.&nbsp; That&#8217;s common in embedded,<o:p></o=
:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph">but not universal, depending on your definiti=
on of embedded.&nbsp; Currently you only define &#8220;embedded&#8221;<o:p>=
</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"text-indent:.5in"><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">as &#8220;</span><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:&quot;Courier New&quot;">where the device manufacturer ships the soft=
ware image for the device&#8221;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph">but that by itself doesn&#8217;t mean all fun=
ctionality is fixed at boot time.&nbsp; E.g., the configuration might be<o:=
p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph">separate from the software image, and might e=
ven be obtained after boot, unless you scope down your<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph">definition of &#8220;embedded&#8221;.<o:p></o=
:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoListParagraph"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span style=3D=
"font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">Section 5 says
</span><o:p></o:p></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:&quot;Courier New&quot;">&#8220;TPM practices require that these keys =
be different, as a way of<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; ensuring that a general-purpose signing key cannot be used to =
spoof<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; an attestation quote.&#8221;</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">and<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoPlainText" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-fa=
mily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif">&#8220;</span><span style=3D"font-fami=
ly:&quot;Courier New&quot;">To prevent spoofing, the quote generated inside=
 the TPM must by<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; signed by a key that's different from the DevID, called an<br>
&nbsp;&nbsp; Attestation Key (AK).&#8221; </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoCommentText" style=3D"text-indent:.5in"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoCommentText" style=3D"text-indent:.5in">The claim that a spl=
it is necessary to prevent spoofing is non-obvious (I know I didn&#8217;t f=
ollow it).&nbsp; I would recommend either<o:p></o:p></p>
<ol style=3D"margin-top:0in" start=3D"1" type=3D"a">
<li class=3D"MsoCommentText" style=3D"margin-left:.25in;mso-list:l2 level1 =
lfo2">Delete the text about spoofing and just say that&#8217;s how TPM work=
s, or<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3D"MsoCommentText" style=3D"margin-left:.25i=
n;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2">Provide an explanation, or<o:p></o:p></li><li cl=
ass=3D"MsoCommentText" style=3D"margin-left:.25in;mso-list:l2 level1 lfo2">=
Reference a publically accessible document that has the explanation.<o:p></=
o:p></li></ol>
<p class=3D"MsoCommentText">Dave<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> RATS &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces=
@ietf.org">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Dave Thaler<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 6, 2019 4:26 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Guy Fedorkow &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gfedorkow=3D40juniper.net@dma=
rc.ietf.org">gfedorkow=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org">rats@ietf.org</a>; Thomas Hardj=
ono &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hardjono@mit.edu">hardjono@mit.edu</a>&gt;; Smith=
, Ned &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com">ned.smith@intel.com</a>&gt=
;; Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de">hen=
k.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;;
 Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jmfmckay@gmail.com">jmfmcka=
y@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Rats] Comments on draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attes=
tation-00<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">[updated subject line]<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Here&#8217;s some comments on draft-fedorkow-rats-ne=
twork-device-attestation-00, in addition to the one in the thread copied at=
 bottom&#8230;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Section 1.2:<o:p></o:p></p>
<pre style=3D"margin-left:.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3">=
<![if !supportLists]><span style=3D"font-family:Wingdings;color:#1F497D"><s=
pan style=3D"mso-list:Ignore">&Oslash;<span style=3D"font:7.0pt &quot;Times=
 New Roman&quot;">&nbsp; </span></span></span><![endif]>o&nbsp; Platform Id=
entity, the mechanism providing trusted identity, can<o:p></o:p></pre>
<ul style=3D"margin-top:0in" type=3D"disc">
<li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level1 =
lfo3"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">=
reassure network managers that the specific devices they ordered<o:p></o:p>=
</span></li><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-lis=
t:l1 level1 lfo3"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier=
 New&quot;">from authorized manufacturers for attachment to their network a=
re<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-lef=
t:0in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:=
&quot;Courier New&quot;">those that were installed, and that they continue =
to be present in<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=
=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0p=
t;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">their network.&nbsp; As part of the =
mechanism for Platform Identity,<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=3D"MsoList=
Paragraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3"><span style=3D=
"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">cryptographic proof =
of the identity of the manufacturer is also<o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=
=3D"MsoListParagraph" style=3D"margin-left:0in;mso-list:l1 level1 lfo3"><sp=
an style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier New&quot;">provided.=
<o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Above is somewhat ambiguous.&nbsp;&nbsp; When it say=
s &#8220;the specific devices&#8221;, is it talking about device instances<=
o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">(in the exact serial number or key pair sense), or t=
he same models?&nbsp;&nbsp; I.e., I ordered 3 widgets, and I got<o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">three widgets (and not three oranges or something el=
se).&nbsp; Is this talking about verifying that they&#8217;re<o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">widgets, or that they&#8217;re the precise 3 widgets=
 you&#8217;re expecting?&nbsp;&nbsp; I suspect you mean the latter but it&#=
8217;s not<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">clear.&nbsp;&nbsp; Assuming you do mean instances, t=
hen knowing that they&#8217;re the specific devices that were ordered<o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">presumes some mechanism for learning the public keys=
 of the devices ordered, prior to their arrival, and<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">this should be called out.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Section 2.1 discusses the model where the verifier c=
ommunicates directly with the attested device.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">However, it doesn&#8217;t point out the problems wit=
h that model, which is that the attested device will see this<o:p></o:p></p=
>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">as unsolicited inbound communication, and hence and =
sort of host firewall-like behavior will prevent the<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">interrogation from succeeding.&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;Sec=
tion 1.5 already constrains the scope to a very narrow scenario, but<o:p></=
o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">it&#8217;s not sufficient, it has to be constrained =
further to the scenario where unsolicited inbound communication<o:p></o:p><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">is permitted.&nbsp;&nbsp; Allowing unsolicited inbou=
nd communication opens up other potential security and privacy<o:p></o:p></=
p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">risks that should be discussed in sections 4 and 5.<=
o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Given the narrowness of the applicability, and the s=
ecurity and privacy risks inherent in the model where<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">the verifier communicates directly with the attested=
 device, it&#8217;s not obvious why this is a good direction<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">to pursue, especially if there might be alternatives=
 that are both more broadly applicable, and more secure/private.<o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I have no objection if there are good reasons, but t=
he draft doesn&#8217;t yet provide sufficient justification<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">in my view.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Dave<span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Guy Fedorkow &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gfed=
orkow=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.org">gfedorkow=3D40juniper.net@dmarc.ietf.=
org</a>&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 6, 2019 12:57 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Dave Thaler &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dthaler@microsoft.com">dthaler=
@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org">rats@ietf.org</a>; Thomas Hardj=
ono &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hardjono@mit.edu">hardjono@mit.edu</a>&gt;; Smith=
, Ned &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com">ned.smith@intel.com</a>&gt=
;; Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de">hen=
k.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;;
 Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jmfmckay@gmail.com">jmfmcka=
y@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: RIV and the RATS architecture<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi Dave,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; Ok, I suppose the model where the verifier co=
mmunicates directly with the attested device is a kind of sub-contracted fu=
ll-service background check.&nbsp; That&#8217;s ok with me, as long as no o=
ne interprets the diagram as meaning that the relying
 party must somehow insert itself into the exchange between Verifier and At=
tester.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; And I see what you mean about lining up the s=
cope of RIV.&nbsp; The draft has gone through a number of changes as we&#82=
17;ve tried to disentangle it from TCG tribal knowledge.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; I think the scope is set by a couple factors.=
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; The doc as written is clearly limited to TPM-=
based systems.&nbsp; That&#8217;s certainly not the only way to manage a ro=
ot of trust, but it&#8217;s the one that&#8217;s available on a lot of gear=
 already, and it&#8217;s fairly stable and tightly spec&#8217;d.&nbsp; From=
 the
 TCG side, I&#8217;d expect there would be interest in extending the ideas =
to other TCG roots of trust such as DICE, but it seems that should be drive=
n out of TCG.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; The limitation to Network Equipment is entire=
ly a matter of expedience.&nbsp; I think the approach would work easily in =
other embedded applications, although YANG is likely a fixation only releva=
nt to networking guys. &nbsp;Other domains would
 presumably need other domain-specific protocols.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; I&#8217;ll connect with Jessica to see if we =
can figure out how to align the name and scope a bit better with the rest o=
f the RATS world.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp; Thanks<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">/guy<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"msipfooter30b3d538" align=3D"center" style=3D"margin:0in;margin=
-bottom:.0001pt;text-align:center">
<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;c=
olor:black">Juniper Business Use Only</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Dave Thaler &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dthal=
er=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org">dthaler=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt;
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 4, 2019 3:56 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Guy Fedorkow &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:gfedorkow@juniper.net">gfedor=
kow@juniper.net</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org">rats@ietf.org</a>; Thomas Hardj=
ono &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hardjono@mit.edu">hardjono@mit.edu</a>&gt;; Smith=
, Ned &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com">ned.smith@intel.com</a>&gt=
;; Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de">hen=
k.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;;
 Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jmfmckay@gmail.com">jmfmcka=
y@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: RIV and the RATS architecture<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Hi Guy, sorry for the =
delay, I was at a conference (Open Source Summit, Confidential Computing Co=
nsortium, and Linux Security Summit were all co-located) all last week and =
traveling there/back.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"color:#1F4=
97D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Responses inline below=
&#8230;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"color:#1F4=
97D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><b>From:</b> RATS &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Guy Fedorkow<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, October 31, 2019 12:27 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Dave Thaler &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dthaler=3D40microsoft.com@dmar=
c.ietf.org">dthaler=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org">rats@ietf.org</a>; Thomas Hardj=
ono &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:hardjono@mit.edu">hardjono@mit.edu</a>&gt;; Smith=
, Ned &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com">ned.smith@intel.com</a>&gt=
;; Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de">hen=
k.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;;
 Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jmfmckay@gmail.com">jmfmcka=
y@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Rats] RIV and the RATS architecture<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">Hi Dave,<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp; Thanks for your do=
c <a href=3D"https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/nam06.safelinks.protection.=
outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fnam06.s=
afelinks.protection.outlook...com*2F*3Furl*3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Ftools.ietf.org*2=
Fhtml*2Fdraft-thaler-rats-architecture-00*26data*3D02*7C01*7Cdthaler*40micr=
osoft.com*7C520adf8cc884437d639508d75e385c4d*7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011=
db47*7C1*7C0*7C637081468537546960*26sdata*3D20zFPTGCbLybPlTaNB2E6uSb3re0G2b=
YPGC8F9TNXis*3D*26reserved*3D0__*3BJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!8WoA6RjC81c!Rpme4JKW=
ETjOw_zisYJRdztjgIgNvTA_HZoPymMV_ggWZP8BkjOlbCzLuKc18WRBFIY*24&amp;data=3D0=
2*7C01*7Cdthaler*40microsoft..com*7C1bf26678bca14945d3bd08d763191133*7C72f9=
88bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47*7C1*7C0*7C637086831671084329&amp;sdata=3DLo3rk=
bTEksxPZCDIB*2FuCj*2BszeMO4xQuHUxDkOF9DZBk*3D&amp;reserved=3D0__;JSUlJSUlJS=
UlJSoqKioqJSUqKioqKioqKiUlKiUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!8WoA6RjC81c!Xn2_O62Wg9lin7=
aRm0WrBgW70EydD8BZFq8Se5MIXVP-bsHRkuSwjYOdlg3eAgtRn20$">
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thaler-rats-architecture-00</a>.<o:p></o:=
p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp; Do you have a view=
 as to how the TPM-based attestation described in RIV would fit with the pr=
oposed categorization?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><a href=3D"https://urldef=
ense.com/v3/__https:/nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps*3A=
*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Fnam06.safelinks.protection.outlook=
.com*2F*3Furl*3Dhttps*3A*2F*2Ftools.ietf.org*2Fhtml*2Fdraft-fedorkow-rats-n=
etwork-device-attestation-00*26data*3D02*7C01*7Cdthaler*40microsoft.com*7C5=
20adf8cc884437d639508d75e385c4d*7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47*7C1*7C0*=
7C637081468537556953*26sdata*3DVTByXHpjuEMkojKjjly0i0BbnvujhB4fIpQaqiPFDKA*=
3D*26reserved*3D0__*3BJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!8WoA6RjC81c!Rpme4JKWETjOw_zisYJRd=
ztjgIgNvTA_HZoPymMV_ggWZP8BkjOlbCzLuKc1fEcZrRQ*24&amp;data=3D02*7C01*7Cdtha=
ler*40microsoft.com*7C1bf26678bca14945d3bd08d763191133*7C72f988bf86f141af91=
ab2d7cd011db47*7C1*7C0*7C637086831671084329&amp;sdata=3DW95iVCu0BKi3ioryV7Z=
OngYQnALJEwEgF19Iw6sXTHg*3D&amp;reserved=3D0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSoqKioqJSUqKioq=
KioqKiUlKiUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSU!8WoA6RjC81c!Xn2_O62Wg9lin7aRm0WrBgW70EydD8BZFq8=
Se5MIXVP-bsHRkuSwjYOdlg3eGnNGpPw$">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fedork=
ow-rats-network-device-attestation-00</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"color:#1F4=
97D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Great question. From m=
y reading of draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-00, it&#8217;s =
a background check model, as section 2.3 of your doc explains:<o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Consolas=
;color:black;background:white">&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp; 3.&nbsp; A Relying Party, w=
hich has access to the Verifier to request<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Consolas=
;color:black;background:white">&gt;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; att=
estation and to act on results.</span><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">That sentence above is=
 by definition the background check model.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">That is, the Attester =
talks to the Relying Party, the Relying Party then requests a background ch=
eck by consulting a Verifier,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">and will accept whatev=
er answer the Verifier decides.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">There are ways where y=
ou could use the passport model for network device attestation,<o:p></o:p><=
/span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">but your document only=
 covers the background check model.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp; It doesn&#8217;t s=
eem to be a passport, since the attester only provides raw evidence, not a =
pre-approved passport<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Agreed, from my readin=
g of your document.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp; It doesn&#8217;t s=
eem to be a background check, as it&#8217;s the verifier that collects and =
analyzes the evidence.<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">If I understand your p=
oint here, you&#8217;re saying that the verifier talks directly to the atte=
ster (e.g., by querying the yang module), without going back through the re=
lying party, and that that seemed to you to
 be different from a classic &#8220;background check&#8221; diagram.&nbsp; =
Did I get your point correctly?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">If so, then I see it a=
s a variation of the background check model, as opposed to a separate model=
 per se.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp; I&#8217;m not sure=
 it matters to RIV, as we haven&#8217;t drawn much distinction between the =
relying party and the verifier&#8230;&nbsp; As you say, if they&#8217;re on=
 the same machine, the distinction is almost moot.&nbsp;<span style=3D"colo=
r:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Agree.<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">And if they&#8217;re not,=
 I think the communication is out of scope for RIV (if not for RATS).<span =
style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">I disagree that it&#82=
17;s out of scope for RATS.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">I have no opinion on w=
hether it&#8217;s out of scope for RIV, since I still have some confusion o=
n the intended scope of RIV.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">I note that your docum=
ent constrains its scope (in section 1.5) to only TPM-based embedded device=
s, and not other<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">types of devices.&nbsp=
;&nbsp; I couldn&#8217;t tell if the scope of RIV and the scope of the draf=
t (which does not have RIV in the name, or in<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">section 1.5) are simil=
ar or one is a subset of the other.&nbsp;&nbsp; Indeed, the title of the do=
cument is far wider than just TPM-based<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">embedded devices, so i=
n that sense the title doesn&#8217;t match the scoping in section 1.5. &nbs=
p;&nbsp;Just explaining why there&#8217;s not<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">enough information for=
 me to have an opinion on verifier-relying party communication in RIV.<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">There can be other net=
work attestation solutions that look quite different from the flow in your =
draft<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">(and I have no skin in=
 this game, so don&#8217;t have a bias towards any solution in particular).=
&nbsp;&nbsp; For example,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">some other solution mi=
ght involve a RADIUS server being a Verifier, so the verifier &#8211; relyi=
ng party communication might<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">be RADIUS in that exam=
ple.&nbsp;&nbsp; There&#8217;s many ways to construct solutions, and so I i=
magine there&#8217;s probably multiple<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">solutions already out =
there, since the NEA problem is not new even in the IETF (<a href=3D"https:=
//urldefense.com/v3/__https:/nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3D=
https*3A*2F*2Furldefense.com*2Fv3*2F__https*3A*2Ftools.ietf.org*2Fwg*2Fnea*=
2F__*3B!8WoA6RjC81c!Rpme4JKWETjOw_zisYJRdztjgIgNvTA_HZoPymMV_ggWZP8BkjOlbCz=
LuKc1mSGm10I*24&amp;data=3D02*7C01*7Cdthaler*40microsoft.com*7C1bf26678bca1=
4945d3bd08d763191133*7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47*7C1*7C0*7C637086831=
671094320&amp;sdata=3DjzwLX8epRspaFxc1XVL61XMieibUdFECiPAD2860Dzg*3D&amp;re=
served=3D0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUl!8WoA6RjC81c!Xn2_O62Wg9lin7aRm0WrB=
gW70EydD8BZFq8Se5MIXVP-bsHRkuSwjYOdlg3eRfx7-V0$">https://tools....ietf.org/=
wg/nea/</a>
 has<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">pointers to RFCs for a=
nyone reading this who&#8217;s not already aware of it).<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp; But it would be go=
od ensure the architecture and the applications of it actually do fit toget=
her&#8230;<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Absolutely.<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">Dave<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp;&nbsp;Thanks<o:p></=
o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">/guy<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:=
12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"msipfooter30b3d538" align=3D"center" style=3D"mso-margin-top-al=
t:0in;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:0in;margin-left:.5in;margin-bottom:.00=
01pt;text-align:center">
<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,sans-serif;c=
olor:black">Juniper Business Use Only</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] What's to EAT? - terminology clarification
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> On Nov 12, 2019, at 11:12 PM, Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder, J=C3=BCrgen =
<J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:
>=20
> Concerning IMs and DMs, here is the (extended) RFC 3444 view that
> is commonly used by some parts of the IETF:
>=20
>                 IM               --> conceptual/abstract model
>                 |                    for designers and operators
>      +----------+---------+
>      |          |         |
>      DM         DM        DM     --> concrete/detailed model
>      |          |         |          for implementors
>   +--+--+   +--+--+--+    |
>   |     |   |  |  |  |    |
>   EN    EN  EN EN EN EN   EN     --> encodings / representation =
formats
>                                      for instance data

In the EAT draft, the EAT claims information model is in the largely =
textual description of each claim.

In the EAT draft there is just one EAT claims data model. It is the CDDL =
in the EAT draft.

Currently there are two claims encodings, CBOR and JSON. Thanks to CDDL, =
we get from data model to encoding in a largely mechanical way and there =
is little text needed.


                IM: Text
                |
                +
                |
                DM: CDDL
                |
            +---+--+
            |      |
           CBOR   JSON


I think this is a good, simple and effective way to proceed.

(There are a few things wrong with the way this is written up in the =
current EAT draft that need to be fixed:
- The encodings are mis labeled as the data model
- I=E2=80=99m not sure the CDDL is correct)

Maybe one more encoding for X.509/ASN.1/DER is added to cover Dave=E2=80=99=
s use case. Hopefully it could be by saying how to encode the needed =
subset of CDDL into ASN.1/DER. Android Keystore also uses X.509 for =
attestations, so this might add motivation. To keep effort down, =
CDDL->ASN.1 should just be for EAT and a CDDL subset.

I do not think we should try to bring YANG in here. So there is no YANG =
expression of EAT claims. (I did see Eric=E2=80=99s GPS use case, but =
don=E2=80=99t think it is mainstream enough to motivate the complexity =
and large effort to bring YANG into play here).

This email is just about the =E2=80=9CEAT claims information model=E2=80=9D=
. There can be other separate information models for other parts of =
RATS. I don=E2=80=99t think there should be one global RATS information =
model that spans all the documents.

The gap of sorts here is IANA registered claims, the existing ones and =
new ones. There=E2=80=99s no requirement to provide an information model =
or CDDL when you register new claims with IANA or even coordinate =
between JWT and CWT.

LL





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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
Nov 12, 2019, at 11:12 PM, Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder, J=C3=BCrgen &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de" =
class=3D"">J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">Concerning IMs and DMs, here is =
the (extended) RFC 3444 view that</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">is commonly used by some parts of the IETF:</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><font =
face=3D"Courier" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;IM =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;--&gt; conceptual/abstract model</span><br style=3D"caret-color:=
 rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;for designers and =
operators</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;+----------+---------+</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;DM =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;DM =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;DM =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;--&gt; concrete/detailed model</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;for =
implementors</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;+--+--+ &nbsp;&nbsp;+--+--+--+ =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| &nbsp;&nbsp;| &nbsp;| &nbsp;| &nbsp;| =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;EN =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;EN &nbsp;EN EN EN EN &nbsp;&nbsp;EN =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;--&gt; encodings / representation =
formats</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;for instance data</span></font></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">In the EAT draft, the EAT claims information =
model is in the largely textual description of each claim.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">In the EAT draft there =
is just one EAT claims data model. It is the CDDL in the EAT =
draft.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Currently=
 there are two claims encodings, CBOR and JSON. Thanks to CDDL, we get =
from data model to encoding in a largely mechanical way and there is =
little text needed.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><font =
face=3D"Courier" class=3D""><span class=3D"" style=3D"float: none; =
display: inline !important;">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; IM: Text</span><br class=3D""><span class=3D"" =
style=3D"float: none; display: inline =
!important;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|</span><br class=3D""><span class=3D""=
 style=3D"float: none; display: inline !important;">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +</span><br class=3D""><span class=3D""=
 style=3D"float: none; display: inline !important;">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |</span><br class=3D""><span class=3D""=
 style=3D"float: none; display: inline !important;">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; DM: CDDL</span><br class=3D""><span =
class=3D"" style=3D"float: none; display: inline !important;">&nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; |</span><br =
class=3D""><span class=3D"" style=3D"float: none; display: inline =
!important;">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
+---+--+</span><br class=3D""><span class=3D"" style=3D"float: none; =
display: inline !important;">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; | =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;|</span><br class=3D""><span class=3D"" =
style=3D"float: none; display: inline !important;">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;CBOR &nbsp; JSON</span></font></div></div><div =
class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier" class=3D""><span class=3D"" =
style=3D"float: none; display: inline !important;"><br =
class=3D""></span></font></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">I think this is a good, simple and effective =
way to proceed.</div></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">(There are a few things wrong with the way this is written up =
in the current EAT draft that need to be fixed:</div><div class=3D"">- =
The encodings are mis labeled as the data model</div><div class=3D"">- =
I=E2=80=99m not sure the CDDL is correct)</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Maybe one more encoding for =
X.509/ASN.1/DER is added to cover Dave=E2=80=99s use case. Hopefully it =
could be by saying how to encode the needed subset of CDDL into =
ASN.1/DER. Android Keystore also uses X.509 for attestations, so this =
might add motivation. To keep effort down, CDDL-&gt;ASN.1 should just be =
for EAT and a CDDL subset.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">I do not think we should try to bring YANG in here. So there =
is no YANG expression of EAT claims. (I did see Eric=E2=80=99s GPS use =
case, but don=E2=80=99t think it is mainstream enough to motivate the =
complexity and large effort to bring YANG into play here).</div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D"">This=
 email is just about the =E2=80=9CEAT claims information model=E2=80=9D. =
There can be other separate information models for other parts of RATS. =
I don=E2=80=99t think there should be one global RATS information model =
that spans all the documents.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The gap of sorts here is IANA =
registered claims, the existing ones and new ones. There=E2=80=99s no =
requirement to provide an information model or CDDL when you register =
new claims with IANA or even coordinate between JWT and CWT.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">LL</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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Subject: Re: [Rats] What's to EAT? - terminology clarification
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Now I am a bit confused. Didn't you attempt to use CDDL as an 
information model in the EAT I-D?

On 13.11.19 18:49, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
> 
>> On Nov 12, 2019, at 11:12 PM, Schönwälder, Jürgen 
>> <J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de 
>> <mailto:J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>> wrote:
>>
>> Concerning IMs and DMs, here is the (extended) RFC 3444 view that
>> is commonly used by some parts of the IETF:
>>
>>                 IM               --> conceptual/abstract model
>>                 |                    for designers and operators
>>      +----------+---------+
>>      |          |         |
>>      DM         DM        DM     --> concrete/detailed model
>>      |          |         |          for implementors
>>   +--+--+   +--+--+--+    |
>>   |     |   |  |  |  |    |
>>   EN    EN  EN EN EN EN   EN     --> encodings / representation formats
>>                                      for instance data
> 
> In the EAT draft, the EAT claims information model is in the largely 
> textual description of each claim.
> 
> In the EAT draft there is just one EAT claims data model. It is the CDDL 
> in the EAT draft.
> 
> Currently there are two claims encodings, CBOR and JSON. Thanks to CDDL, 
> we get from data model to encoding in a largely mechanical way and there 
> is little text needed.
> 
> 
>                  IM: Text
>                  |
>                  +
>                  |
>                  DM: CDDL
>                  |
>              +---+--+
>              |      |
>             CBOR   JSON
> 
> 
> I think this is a good, simple and effective way to proceed.
> 
> (There are a few things wrong with the way this is written up in the 
> current EAT draft that need to be fixed:
> - The encodings are mis labeled as the data model
> - I’m not sure the CDDL is correct)
> 
> Maybe one more encoding for X.509/ASN.1/DER is added to cover Dave’s use 
> case. Hopefully it could be by saying how to encode the needed subset of 
> CDDL into ASN.1/DER. Android Keystore also uses X.509 for attestations, 
> so this might add motivation. To keep effort down, CDDL->ASN.1 should 
> just be for EAT and a CDDL subset.
> 
> I do not think we should try to bring YANG in here. So there is no YANG 
> expression of EAT claims. (I did see Eric’s GPS use case, but don’t 
> think it is mainstream enough to motivate the complexity and large 
> effort to bring YANG into play here).
> 
> This email is just about the “EAT claims information model”. There can 
> be other separate information models for other parts of RATS. I don’t 
> think there should be one global RATS information model that spans all 
> the documents.
> 
> The gap of sorts here is IANA registered claims, the existing ones and 
> new ones. There’s no requirement to provide an information model or CDDL 
> when you register new claims with IANA or even coordinate between JWT 
> and CWT.
> 
> LL
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
> 


From nobody Wed Nov 13 10:07:12 2019
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Cc: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, "Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>, "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" <ncamwing@cisco.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
To: Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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My version of technology bases for attestation is something like this:

Router/Netconf World
Millions of devices. Currently TPM oriented. Long possible transition to =
EAT. YANG used to create very specific fine-grained interactions. No =
privacy issues.

Web Browser World
Billions of devices. Current attestation use is primarily WebAuthN / =
FIDO. JWT is used heavily for authentication so would be more EAT =
oriented, but TPM attestation is supported in FIDO. Larger use of =
attestation may evolve. Fine-grained interactions are with WebAPIs =
(Javascript) (sort of parallel to YANG for routers). Big privacy issues.

Mobile App World
Billions of devices. Main attestation use is Android=E2=80=99s Keystore. =
This is EAT-like, but based on X.509. Fine grained interactions are =
Android APIs. I may be out of date, but so far IoS doesn=E2=80=99t do =
attestation. Privacy issues vary by app.

IoT World
Billions of devices most likely going to trillions. Attestation is a =
critical enabling feature in this world. There are lots of protocols and =
formats involved. TPMs are too expensive for many of these, but are =
probably in use somewhere. No privacy issues for a large portion of this =
world.

The router world is the smallest, but it is =E2=80=9Cwell represented=E2=80=
=9D because this is the IETF.

I see EAT as applicable to all these worlds, where the YANG module is =
just for the smallish router world. So I mostly agree with Dave about =
proportions, however this is the IETF where YANG modules are created.  =
(Maybe I should go join the W3C world and work on attestations APIs for =
browsers after RATS is done).

LL



> On Nov 11, 2019, at 5:43 PM, Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> As far as I can understand from =
draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module-01 and
> draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-01, they break down the =
use case
> space as follows:
> =20
>                         Requirements?
>          +--------------+---------------+---------++---------------
>          |  RoT         | Host Firewall | Privacy ||   Solution  =20
>          |  Type        |   Enabled     | Needed  ||    Pieces   =20
>          +--------------+---------------+---------++---------------
>       1  |  SGX         | No            | No      ||
>       2  |  SGX         | No            | Yes     ||
>       3  |  SGX         | Yes           | No      ||
>       4  |  SGX         | Yes           | Yes     ||
>       5  |  TrustZone   | No            | No      ||
>       6  |  TrustZone   | No            | Yes     ||
>       7  |  TrustZone   | Yes           | No      ||
>       8  |  TrustZone   | Yes           | Yes     ||
>       9  |  TPM         | No            | No      || =
draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module-01
>      10  |  TPM         | No            | Yes     ||
>      11  |  TPM         | Yes           | No      ||
>      12  |  TPM         | Yes           | Yes     ||
>      13  |SecureElement | No            | No      ||
>      14  |SecureElement | No            | Yes     ||
>      15  |SecureElement | Yes           | No      ||
>      16  |SecureElement | Yes           | Yes     ||
>      17  | Firmware     | No            | No      ||
>      18  | Firmware     | No            | Yes     ||
>      19  | Firmware     | Yes           | No      ||
>      20  | Firmware     | Yes           | Yes     ||
>      ... |   ...        |               |         ||
> =20
> And draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-01 further scopes =
itself down
> by only being applicable to cases with "embedded" apps only =3D Yes, =
and where
> the security policy is only an Exact match against reference values =3D =
Yes.
> I believe that the yang draft doesn't have those two restrictions, =
from my reading.
> However, the point is that both drafts are VERY narrow, and in the =
table shown above,
> only address 1 out of 20 possibilies in that space.
> =20
> In contrast, the TEEP WG decided that it was not interested in narrow =
scopings
> (specifically something Global Platform specific), but instead wanted =
one general solution.
> =20
> If the RATS WG spends effort on something that only addresses a single =
row out of 20+ rows,
> then do we expect 19+ other solutions to also be done in the WG?  Or =
could we work on things
> that are broader and happen to also work for row 9?
> =20
> I've seen others commenting on the fact that the YANG module only =
supports TPMs and not
> other things (EATs etc), which would just add support for a couple =
more rows, but still not
> be general.
> =20
> Personally, I would much rather see the WG spend effort on things that =
really are generic,
> i.e., work with or without host firewalls, work with multiple RoT/TEE =
types, etc., rather
> than seeing an explosion of point solutions.
> =20
> Dave
> =20
> From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Smith, Ned
> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2019 10:12 AM
> To: Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>; =
Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>; Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) =
<ncamwing@cisco.com>
> Cc: rats@ietf.org; Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang =
module draft
> =20
> Right. This implies the RATS =E2=80=9Ctoken=E2=80=9D should support =
existing =E2=80=9Cbinary=E2=80=9D formats as an encapsulation (signed by =
a second TA where the TPM is a first TA) or as a conveyance (unsigned?) =
token. Possibly, the only added value of the latter is a tag that =
identifies it as a TPM binary format?
> =20
> =20
> On 11/10/19, 23:21 PM, "RATS on behalf of Oliver, Ian (Nokia - =
FI/Espoo)" <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org> on =
behalf of ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com =
<mailto:ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>> wrote:
> =20
> > Remote TPM attestations are useful and necessary the short run, but =
are of very limited capability. I believe that > EAT will replace TPM =
attestations in the long run (maybe decades) because they are far more =
expressive. I know > others believe that too.=20
> =20
> I would disagree with the statement of "short run" ... TPM is =
practically the only existing standardised (hardware, software, =
firmware, measurement - x86 only etc) hardware root of trust in common =
use, ie: practically all x86 machines,  The attestation mechanisms =
provided are going to be around for a very long time.=20
> =20
> =46rom telco experience, 30 years ago we said SS7 would only be around =
in the short term.
> =20
> > Thus, I am opposed to adoption with the current TPM-only draft. =
I=E2=80=99d be OK with the current draft and a promise > to add EAT to =
it.
> =20
> Agree
> =20
> Ian
> =20
> --
>=20
> Dr. Ian Oliver
>=20
> Cybersecurity Research
>=20
> Distinguished Member of Technical Staff
>=20
> Nokia Bell Labs
>=20
> +358 50 483 6237
>=20
> =20
> From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com =
<mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>>
> Sent: 11 November 2019 00:44
> To: Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) <ncamwing@cisco.com =
<mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com>>
> Cc: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>; rats@ietf..org =
<mailto:rats@ietf..org> <rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org>>
> Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang =
module draft
> =20
> =20
> On Nov 10, 2019, at 2:20 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) =
<ncamwing@cisco.com <mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com>> wrote:
> =20
> So, Laurence, are you still OK with the adoption of the current draft =
with a rename for now?
> Thanks, Nancy
> =20
> I think the value add to the larger RATS effort of adding EAT support =
to this YANG protocol is really high. It a core thing to do that helps =
bring together the two attestation worlds and make the TPM and EAT work =
here less like ships in the night.
> =20
> Remote TPM attestations are useful and necessary the short run, but =
are of very limited capability. I believe that EAT will replace TPM =
attestations in the long run (maybe decades) because they are far more =
expressive. I know others believe that too.=20
> =20
> If we don=E2=80=99t include EAT in the YANG mode it is sort of like =
defining HTTP to only convey HTML to the exclusion of PDF. We=E2=80=99re =
defining an attestation protocol that can only move one kind of =
attestation even though we have consensus on what the other one looks =
like.
> =20
> It seems relatively simple to add EAT support (or promise to add EAT =
support). Pretty sure I heard Henk agree to add it.
> =20
> Thus, I am opposed to adoption with the current TPM-only draft. I=E2=80=99=
d be OK with the current draft and a promise to add EAT to it.
> =20
> LL
> =20


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">My version of technology bases for attestation is something =
like this:</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Router/Netconf World</b></div><div =
class=3D"">Millions of devices. Currently TPM oriented. Long possible =
transition to EAT. YANG used to create very specific fine-grained =
interactions. No privacy issues.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><b class=3D"">Web Browser =
World</b></div><div class=3D"">Billions of devices. Current attestation =
use is primarily WebAuthN / FIDO. JWT is used heavily for authentication =
so would be more EAT oriented, but TPM attestation is supported in FIDO. =
Larger use of attestation may evolve. Fine-grained interactions are with =
WebAPIs (Javascript) (sort of parallel to YANG for routers). Big privacy =
issues.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Mobile App World</b></div><div class=3D"">Billions of =
devices. Main attestation use is Android=E2=80=99s Keystore. This is =
EAT-like, but based on X.509. Fine grained interactions are Android =
APIs. I may be out of date, but so far IoS doesn=E2=80=99t do =
attestation. Privacy issues vary by app.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><b class=3D"">IoT World</b></div><div =
class=3D"">Billions of devices most likely going to trillions. =
Attestation is a critical enabling feature in this world. There are lots =
of protocols and formats involved. TPMs are too expensive for many of =
these, but are probably in use somewhere. No privacy issues for a large =
portion of this world.</div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">The router world is the smallest, but =
it is =E2=80=9Cwell represented=E2=80=9D because this is the =
IETF.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I see =
EAT as applicable to all these worlds, where the YANG module is just for =
the smallish router world. So I mostly agree with Dave about =
proportions, however this is the IETF where YANG modules are created. =
&nbsp;(Maybe I should go join the W3C world and work on attestations =
APIs for browsers after RATS is done).</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><br class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Nov 11, 2019, at 5:43 PM, =
Dave Thaler &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dthaler@microsoft.com" =
class=3D"">dthaler@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D"">

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<div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#1F497D" class=3D"">As far as I can understand from =
draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module-01 and<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#1F497D" =
class=3D"">draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-01, they break =
down the use case<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D" class=3D"">space as =
follows:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
; Requirements?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
+--------------+---------------+---------++---------------<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; =
RoT&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | Host Firewall | =
Privacy ||&nbsp;&nbsp; Solution&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp; =
Type&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Enabled&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | Needed&nbsp; ||&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Pieces&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;+--------=
------+---------------+---------++---------------<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 1&nbsp; |&nbsp; =
SGX&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2&nbsp; |&nbsp; =
SGX&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 3&nbsp; |&nbsp; =
SGX&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 4&nbsp; |&nbsp; =
SGX&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 5&nbsp; |&nbsp; =
TrustZone&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 6&nbsp; |&nbsp; =
TrustZone&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 7&nbsp; |&nbsp; =
TrustZone&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 8&nbsp; |&nbsp; =
TrustZone&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 9&nbsp; |&nbsp; =
TPM&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; || =
draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module-01<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 10&nbsp; |&nbsp; =
TPM&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 11&nbsp; |&nbsp; =
TPM&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;12&nbsp; |&nbsp; =
TPM&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 13&nbsp; |SecureElement | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 14&nbsp; |SecureElement | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 15&nbsp; |SecureElement | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 16&nbsp; |SecureElement | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;||<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 17&nbsp; | =
Firmware&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 18&nbsp; | =
Firmware&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 19&nbsp; | =
Firmware&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 20&nbsp; | =
Firmware&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ... |&nbsp;&nbsp; =
...&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#1F497D" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#1F497D" class=3D"">And =
draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-01 further scopes itself =
down<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#1F497D" class=3D"">by only being applicable to cases =
with "embedded" apps only =3D Yes, and where<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#1F497D" class=3D"">the security policy is only an Exact =
match against reference values =3D Yes.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D" class=3D"">I believe =
that the yang draft doesn't have those two restrictions, from my =
reading.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#1F497D" class=3D"">However, the point is that both =
drafts are VERY narrow, and in the table shown above,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#1F497D" class=3D"">only address 1 out of 20 possibilies =
in that space.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#1F497D" class=3D"">In contrast, the TEEP WG decided that =
it was not interested in narrow scopings<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#1F497D" class=3D"">(specifically something Global =
Platform specific), but instead wanted one general solution.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#1F497D" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#1F497D" class=3D"">If the RATS WG spends effort on =
something that only addresses a single row out of 20+ rows,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#1F497D" class=3D"">then do we expect 19+ other solutions =
to also be done in the WG?&nbsp; Or could we work on things<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#1F497D" class=3D"">that are broader and happen to also =
work for row 9?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#1F497D" class=3D"">I've seen others commenting on the =
fact that the YANG module only supports TPMs and not<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#1F497D" class=3D"">other things (EATs etc), which would =
just add support for a couple more rows, but still not<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#1F497D" class=3D"">be general.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#1F497D" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#1F497D" class=3D"">Personally, I would much rather see =
the WG spend effort on things that really are generic,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#1F497D" class=3D"">i.e., work with or without host =
firewalls, work with multiple RoT/TEE types, etc., rather<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#1F497D" class=3D"">than seeing an explosion of point =
solutions.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#1F497D" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"color:#1F497D" class=3D"">Dave<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:#1F497D" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div class=3D"">
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in" class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b class=3D"">From:</b> =
RATS &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; <b class=3D"">On Behalf Of </b>
Smith, Ned<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Sent:</b> Monday, November 11, 2019 10:12 AM<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">To:</b> Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com" =
class=3D"">ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com</a>&gt;; Laurence Lundblade =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" =
class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt;; Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com" =
class=3D"">ncamwing@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">rats@ietf.org</a>; Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Subject:</b> Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft =
rename) for Yang module draft<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p>
</div>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">Right. This implies the RATS =E2=80=9Ctoken=E2=80=9D =
should support existing =E2=80=9Cbinary=E2=80=9D formats as an =
encapsulation (signed by a second TA where the TPM is a first TA) or as =
a conveyance (unsigned?) token. Possibly, the only added value of the =
latter is
 a tag that identifies it as a TPM binary format?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">On =
11/10/19, 23:21 PM, "RATS on behalf of Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a> on behalf of
<a href=3D"mailto:ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com" =
class=3D"">ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-left:.5in;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size: =
12pt;" class=3D"">&gt; Remote TPM attestations are useful and necessary =
the short run, but are of very limited capability. I believe that &gt; =
EAT will replace TPM attestations
 in the long run (maybe decades) because they are far more expressive. I =
know &gt; others believe that too.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-left:.5in;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size: =
12pt;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-left:.5in;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size: =
12pt;" class=3D"">I would disagree with the statement of "short run" ... =
TPM is practically the only existing standardised (hardware, software, =
firmware, measurement - x86
 only etc) hardware root of trust in common use, ie: practically all x86 =
machines,&nbsp; The attestation mechanisms provided are going to be =
around for a very long time.&nbsp;
<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-left:.5in;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size: =
12pt;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-left:.5in;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size: =
12pt;" class=3D"">=46rom telco experience, 30 years ago we said SS7 =
would only be around in the short term.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-left:.5in;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size: =
12pt;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-left:.5in;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size: =
12pt;" class=3D"">&gt; Thus, I am opposed to adoption with the current =
TPM-only draft. I=E2=80=99d be OK with the current draft and a promise =
&gt; to add EAT to it.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-left:.5in;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size: =
12pt;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-left:.5in;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size: =
12pt;" class=3D"">Agree<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-left:.5in;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size: =
12pt;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-left:.5in;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size: =
12pt;" class=3D"">Ian<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div id=3D"Signature" class=3D"">
<div id=3D"divtagdefaultwrapper" class=3D""><p style=3D"margin-left:.5in" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">-- <o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p style=3D"margin-left:.5in" class=3D""><span=
 style=3D"" class=3D"">Dr. Ian Oliver<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
style=3D"margin-left:.5in" class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">Cybersecurity Research<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
style=3D"margin-left:.5in" class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">Distinguished Member of Technical Staff<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p style=3D"margin-left:.5in" class=3D""><span=
 style=3D"" class=3D"">Nokia Bell Labs<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p><p =
style=3D"margin-left:.5in" class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">+358 =
50 483 6237<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:.5in" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center">
<hr size=3D"1" width=3D"99%" align=3D"center" class=3D"">
</div>
</div>
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><b class=3D""><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">From:</span></b><span style=3D"" class=3D""> Laurence =
Lundblade &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" =
class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Sent:</b> 11 November 2019 00:44<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">To:</b> Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com" =
class=3D"">ncamwing@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Cc:</b> Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;;
<a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf..org" class=3D"">rats@ietf..org</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" class=3D"">rats@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D"">
<b class=3D"">Subject:</b> Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft =
rename) for Yang module draft</span>
<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-left:.5in">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div class=3D"">
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt" class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">On Nov =
10, 2019, at 2:20 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com" class=3D"">ncamwing@cisco.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><span =
style=3D"font-size:9.0pt;font-family:&quot;Helvetica&quot;,sans-serif" =
class=3D"">So, Laurence, are you still OK with the adoption of the =
current draft with a rename for now?<br class=3D"">
Thanks, Nancy</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">I =
think the value add to the larger RATS effort of adding EAT support to =
this YANG protocol is really high. It a core thing to do that helps =
bring together the two attestation worlds and make the TPM and EAT work
 here less like ships in the night.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">Remote =
TPM attestations are useful and necessary the short run, but are of very =
limited capability. I believe that EAT will replace TPM attestations in =
the long run (maybe decades) because they are far more expressive.
 I know others believe that too.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">If we =
don=E2=80=99t include EAT in the YANG mode it is sort of like defining =
HTTP to only convey HTML to the exclusion of PDF. We=E2=80=99re defining =
an attestation protocol that can only move one kind of attestation even =
though
 we have consensus on what the other one looks like.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">It =
seems relatively simple to add EAT support (or promise to add EAT =
support). Pretty sure I heard Henk agree to add it.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">Thus, =
I am opposed to adoption with the current TPM-only draft. I=E2=80=99d be =
OK with the current draft and a promise to add EAT to it.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in">LL<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></p>
</div>
<div class=3D""><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:.5in"><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_64BB39AF-6DEA-49BA-B68B-9EDCFFFE299B--


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To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] What's to EAT? - terminology clarification
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One of the D=E2=80=99s in CDDL is for Data and I think someone told me =
that CDDL is for Data Models and that what is currently labeled as the =
Data Model in the EAT document is the Encoding.

It doesn=E2=80=99t matter much to me what we label the different parts =
of the EAT document. Happy to adjust the labeling. However having 1) the =
textual claim descriptions, 2) having CDDL as the next level of =
description and 3) being able to encode CDDL in JSON and CBOR (and maybe =
ASN.1) mechanically does matter to me.

LL




> On Nov 13, 2019, at 9:51 AM, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
>=20
> Now I am a bit confused. Didn't you attempt to use CDDL as an =
information model in the EAT I-D?
>=20
> On 13.11.19 18:49, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>>> On Nov 12, 2019, at 11:12 PM, Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder, J=C3=BCrgen =
<J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de =
<mailto:J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Concerning IMs and DMs, here is the (extended) RFC 3444 view that
>>> is commonly used by some parts of the IETF:
>>>=20
>>>                 IM               --> conceptual/abstract model
>>>                 |                    for designers and operators
>>>      +----------+---------+
>>>      |          |         |
>>>      DM         DM        DM     --> concrete/detailed model
>>>      |          |         |          for implementors
>>>   +--+--+   +--+--+--+    |
>>>   |     |   |  |  |  |    |
>>>   EN    EN  EN EN EN EN   EN     --> encodings / representation =
formats
>>>                                      for instance data
>> In the EAT draft, the EAT claims information model is in the largely =
textual description of each claim.
>> In the EAT draft there is just one EAT claims data model. It is the =
CDDL in the EAT draft.
>> Currently there are two claims encodings, CBOR and JSON. Thanks to =
CDDL, we get from data model to encoding in a largely mechanical way and =
there is little text needed.
>>                 IM: Text
>>                 |
>>                 +
>>                 |
>>                 DM: CDDL
>>                 |
>>             +---+--+
>>             |      |
>>            CBOR   JSON
>> I think this is a good, simple and effective way to proceed.
>> (There are a few things wrong with the way this is written up in the =
current EAT draft that need to be fixed:
>> - The encodings are mis labeled as the data model
>> - I=E2=80=99m not sure the CDDL is correct)
>> Maybe one more encoding for X.509/ASN.1/DER is added to cover =
Dave=E2=80=99s use case. Hopefully it could be by saying how to encode =
the needed subset of CDDL into ASN.1/DER. Android Keystore also uses =
X.509 for attestations, so this might add motivation. To keep effort =
down, CDDL->ASN.1 should just be for EAT and a CDDL subset.
>> I do not think we should try to bring YANG in here. So there is no =
YANG expression of EAT claims. (I did see Eric=E2=80=99s GPS use case, =
but don=E2=80=99t think it is mainstream enough to motivate the =
complexity and large effort to bring YANG into play here).
>> This email is just about the =E2=80=9CEAT claims information =
model=E2=80=9D. There can be other separate information models for other =
parts of RATS. I don=E2=80=99t think there should be one global RATS =
information model that spans all the documents.
>> The gap of sorts here is IANA registered claims, the existing ones =
and new ones. There=E2=80=99s no requirement to provide an information =
model or CDDL when you register new claims with IANA or even coordinate =
between JWT and CWT.
>> LL
>> _______________________________________________
>> RATS mailing list
>> RATS@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>=20


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Subject: Re: [Rats] What's to EAT? - terminology clarification
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Up to today, I was looking at the CDDL fragments in the EAT I-D with 
some leniency, as I though the CDDL preludes would not be used, leaving 
the higher level tree composition features for use as a first draft to 
create IM statements in well-defined non-English (a good approach to 
peruse, I thought).

If you are using them now as actual CDDL specification fragments, I'll 
think I have to chime in and provide contribution on how to do that in a 
compliant manner that will result in a valid overall CDDL ROOT 
specification in the end.

We can talk about that in .sg. It will not take very long, if we do that 
in concert, I think.

Viele Grüße,

Henk

On 13.11.19 20:30, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
> One of the D’s in CDDL is for Data and I think someone told me that CDDL is for Data Models and that what is currently labeled as the Data Model in the EAT document is the Encoding.
> 
> It doesn’t matter much to me what we label the different parts of the EAT document. Happy to adjust the labeling. However having 1) the textual claim descriptions, 2) having CDDL as the next level of description and 3) being able to encode CDDL in JSON and CBOR (and maybe ASN.1) mechanically does matter to me.
> 
> LL
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Nov 13, 2019, at 9:51 AM, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
>>
>> Now I am a bit confused. Didn't you attempt to use CDDL as an information model in the EAT I-D?
>>
>> On 13.11.19 18:49, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>>>> On Nov 12, 2019, at 11:12 PM, Schönwälder, Jürgen <J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de <mailto:J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Concerning IMs and DMs, here is the (extended) RFC 3444 view that
>>>> is commonly used by some parts of the IETF:
>>>>
>>>>                  IM               --> conceptual/abstract model
>>>>                  |                    for designers and operators
>>>>       +----------+---------+
>>>>       |          |         |
>>>>       DM         DM        DM     --> concrete/detailed model
>>>>       |          |         |          for implementors
>>>>    +--+--+   +--+--+--+    |
>>>>    |     |   |  |  |  |    |
>>>>    EN    EN  EN EN EN EN   EN     --> encodings / representation formats
>>>>                                       for instance data
>>> In the EAT draft, the EAT claims information model is in the largely textual description of each claim.
>>> In the EAT draft there is just one EAT claims data model. It is the CDDL in the EAT draft.
>>> Currently there are two claims encodings, CBOR and JSON. Thanks to CDDL, we get from data model to encoding in a largely mechanical way and there is little text needed.
>>>                  IM: Text
>>>                  |
>>>                  +
>>>                  |
>>>                  DM: CDDL
>>>                  |
>>>              +---+--+
>>>              |      |
>>>             CBOR   JSON
>>> I think this is a good, simple and effective way to proceed.
>>> (There are a few things wrong with the way this is written up in the current EAT draft that need to be fixed:
>>> - The encodings are mis labeled as the data model
>>> - I’m not sure the CDDL is correct)
>>> Maybe one more encoding for X.509/ASN.1/DER is added to cover Dave’s use case. Hopefully it could be by saying how to encode the needed subset of CDDL into ASN.1/DER. Android Keystore also uses X.509 for attestations, so this might add motivation. To keep effort down, CDDL->ASN.1 should just be for EAT and a CDDL subset.
>>> I do not think we should try to bring YANG in here. So there is no YANG expression of EAT claims. (I did see Eric’s GPS use case, but don’t think it is mainstream enough to motivate the complexity and large effort to bring YANG into play here).
>>> This email is just about the “EAT claims information model”. There can be other separate information models for other parts of RATS. I don’t think there should be one global RATS information model that spans all the documents.
>>> The gap of sorts here is IANA registered claims, the existing ones and new ones. There’s no requirement to provide an information model or CDDL when you register new claims with IANA or even coordinate between JWT and CWT.
>>> LL
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> RATS mailing list
>>> RATS@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>>
> 


From nobody Wed Nov 13 12:21:16 2019
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From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
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Subject: [Rats] More claims? When is EAT done?
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One of my requested topics for Singapore is that of which new claims we =
should add to the current EAT draft and which ones should be left for =
subsequent work. This list here is a bit rough, but I wanted to get it =
in front of everyone sooner rather than later for some think / =
discussion time before meeting.

SW Inventory
This claim / set of claims would list SW installed on the device. It =
would probably include:
Name
Version
Checksum
Who signed it
This seems important for a lot of use cases including routers and IoT. =
It is important in RIV.
This seems like a relatively complex topic.

Measurements and Integrity Checks
The claims here could either be measurements that need to be checked or =
the result of a measurement after comparison with k-g-v. Note that =
systems like TIMA check against k-g-v on the device. So claims might =
look like:
Name
Measurement value
Measurement result (likely a Boolean)
Timestamp
This seems important for use cases including routers and mobile phones. =
It shows up in RIV.
This seems like a relatively complex topic.

Public Key
The claim would be a public key and its characteristics. Something like =
this:
The public key
How it is protected (TEE, secure element=E2=80=A6)
User verification required to use it
Other key use and ownership characteristics (Android key store has =
implemented many of these)
This seems important for the mobile app world, particularly that this is =
supported by Android now. FIDO and WeChat pay have options to use the =
Android Keystore. This also seems important for IoT on boarding, =
particularly establishing a certificate for use with DTLS.

Attestation Result
An attestation result can be expressed as an EAT. For example a TPM / =
YANG interaction between the device and verifier might happen. The =
verifier outputs the result in EAT format. This is also likely where =
implicit claims are made explicit for the relying party. Interesting =
claims here might be:
Origination (an existing claim)
Certifications received
All other existing claims

While new claims can be added anytime through the IANA registry, I=E2=80=99=
d like to see the EAT document have a very solid set of well thought out =
core claims. My inclination is to do the work on all of these, even if =
it takes longer to get EAT done.

LL


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">One =
of my requested topics for Singapore is that of which new claims we =
should add to the current EAT draft and which ones should be left for =
subsequent work. This list here is a bit rough, but I wanted to get it =
in front of everyone sooner rather than later for some think / =
discussion time before meeting.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><u class=3D"">SW Inventory</u></b></div><div =
class=3D"">This claim / set of claims would list SW installed on the =
device. It would probably include:</div><div class=3D""><ul =
class=3D"MailOutline"><li class=3D"">Name</li><li =
class=3D"">Version</li><li class=3D"">Checksum</li><li class=3D"">Who =
signed it</li></ul><div class=3D"">This seems important for a lot of use =
cases including routers and IoT. It is important in RIV.</div></div><div =
class=3D"">This seems like a relatively complex topic.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><b class=3D""><u =
class=3D"">Measurements and Integrity Checks</u></b></div><div =
class=3D"">The&nbsp;claims here could either be measurements that need =
to be checked or the result of a measurement after comparison with =
k-g-v. Note that systems like TIMA check against k-g-v on the device. So =
claims might look like:</div><div class=3D""><ul class=3D"MailOutline"><li=
 class=3D"">Name</li><li class=3D"">Measurement value</li><li =
class=3D"">Measurement result (likely a Boolean)</li><li =
class=3D"">Timestamp</li></ul><div class=3D"">This seems important for =
use cases including routers and mobile phones. It shows up in =
RIV.</div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">This seems like a =
relatively complex topic.</div></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><b class=3D""><u class=3D"">Public =
Key</u></b></div><div class=3D"">The claim would be a public key and its =
characteristics. Something like this:</div><div class=3D""><ul =
class=3D"MailOutline"><li class=3D"">The public key</li><li class=3D"">How=
 it is protected (TEE, secure element=E2=80=A6)</li><li class=3D"">User =
verification required to use it</li><li class=3D"">Other key use and =
ownership characteristics (Android key store has implemented many of =
these)</li></ul><div class=3D"">This seems important for the mobile app =
world, particularly that this is supported by Android now. FIDO and =
WeChat pay have options to use the Android Keystore. This also seems =
important for IoT on boarding, particularly establishing a certificate =
for use with DTLS.</div></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><u class=3D"">Attestation =
Result</u></b></div><div class=3D"">An attestation result can be =
expressed as an EAT. For example a TPM / YANG interaction between the =
device and verifier might happen. The verifier outputs the result in EAT =
format. This is also likely where implicit claims are made explicit for =
the relying party. Interesting claims here might be:</div><div =
class=3D""><ul class=3D"MailOutline"><li class=3D"">Origination (an =
existing claim)</li><li class=3D"">Certifications received</li><li =
class=3D"">All other existing claims</li></ul><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D"">While new claims can be added =
anytime through the IANA registry, I=E2=80=99d like to see the EAT =
document have a very solid set of well thought out core claims. My =
inclination is to do the work on all of these, even if it takes longer =
to get EAT done.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 16:11:57 -0500
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Greetings!

Please send your slides to myself and Ned.  One of us will post them once
received.  We will both be remote, so please get them to use early in order
to avoid any time difference snafus.

Thank you!

-- 

Best regards,
Kathleen

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Greetings!<div><br></div><div>Please send your slides to m=
yself=C2=A0and=C2=A0Ned.=C2=A0 One of us will post them once received.=C2=
=A0 We will both be remote, so please get them to use early in order to avo=
id any time difference snafus.</div><div><br></div><div>Thank you!<br clear=
=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" d=
ata-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div>Best regards,</=
div><div>Kathleen</div></div></div></div></div>

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From: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2019 18:32:07 -0500
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To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] my hack attempt at a RATS icon
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On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 8:59 AM Kathleen Moriarty <
kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

> Clever, but what about the people that hate rats?  I try to dis-associate
> when I think of the working group.  Are there any cute rat images or one
> that is white?
>

White was thinking as a reference to white hat as someone asked.

Cute would be better though.

>
> Thanks!
> Kathleen
>
> On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 7:10 AM Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On 2019-11-13 9:03 a.m., Salz, Rich wrote:
>> > Is the rat clip-art public domain?
>>
>> Thanks for asking!
>> Yes, I try to be meticulous when I'm grabbing artwork from the Internet.
>> I have a script that wget's stuff and saves it to "credits.txt" so that
>> I have a record!
>>
>> I thought clker had explicit CC statements for each item, but they say
>> things are public domain.
>> (Which actually means that their terms of use are null and void.
>> Stallman figured that out 40 years ago)
>>
>> Anyway, here are the components:
>> http://www.clker.com/clipart-grey-greedy-rat.html
>> http://www.clker.com/clipart-sniper-optic.html
>>
>> Given that I put some public domain stuff together, I get to assert a
>> copyright on the collection if I want.
>> So, I'd use:  Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> RATS mailing list
>> RATS@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>>
>
>
> --
>
> Best regards,
> Kathleen
>


-- 

Best regards,
Kathleen

--000000000000087428059742c897
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 8:59 AM Kathl=
een Moriarty &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com">kathle=
en.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,2=
04,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Clever, but what about the peopl=
e that hate rats?=C2=A0 I try to dis-associate when I think of the working =
group.=C2=A0 Are there any cute rat images or one that is white?</div></blo=
ckquote><div><br></div><div>White was thinking as a reference to white hat =
as someone asked.</div><div><br></div><div>Cute would be better though.=C2=
=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e=
x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"=
><div><br></div><div>Thanks!</div><div>Kathleen</div></div><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Nov 13, 2019=
 at 7:10 AM Michael Richardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr%2Bietf@sandelman.c=
a" target=3D"_blank">mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px=
 solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
<br>
On 2019-11-13 9:03 a.m., Salz, Rich wrote:<br>
&gt; Is the rat clip-art public domain?<br>
<br>
Thanks for asking!<br>
Yes, I try to be meticulous when I&#39;m grabbing artwork from the Internet=
.<br>
I have a script that wget&#39;s stuff and saves it to &quot;credits.txt&quo=
t; so that<br>
I have a record!<br>
<br>
I thought clker had explicit CC statements for each item, but they say<br>
things are public domain.<br>
(Which actually means that their terms of use are null and void.=C2=A0<br>
Stallman figured that out 40 years ago)<br>
<br>
Anyway, here are the components:<br>
<a href=3D"http://www.clker.com/clipart-grey-greedy-rat.html" rel=3D"norefe=
rrer" target=3D"_blank">http://www.clker.com/clipart-grey-greedy-rat.html</=
a><br>
<a href=3D"http://www.clker.com/clipart-sniper-optic.html" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" target=3D"_blank">http://www.clker.com/clipart-sniper-optic.html</a>=C2=
=A0<br>
<br>
Given that I put some public domain stuff together, I get to assert a<br>
copyright on the collection if I want.<br>
So, I&#39;d use:=C2=A0 Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 International<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
RATS mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">RATS@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"=
><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div>Best regards,</div><div>Kathleen</div></div></di=
v>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"=
 class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div>Best regards,</div><di=
v>Kathleen</div></div></div></div>

--000000000000087428059742c897--


From nobody Thu Nov 14 01:46:19 2019
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From: "Fuchs, Andreas" <andreas.fuchs@sit.fraunhofer.de>
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] FIDO TPM attestation
Thread-Index: AQHVmdgbKKlnQ1ZLsk2cVdcDGcns46eKarF6
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 09:46:04 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Rats] FIDO TPM attestation
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The reason for this is that a TEE is a touring-complete execution environme=
nt for arbitrary code,=0A=
whilst the TPM further has a well-define precise functional logic instead o=
f arbitrary code.=0A=
Thus only protocols that have the TPM's functional logic in mind can levera=
ge it to the fullest and=0A=
FIDO unfortunately did not do so.=0A=
=0A=
However, this fact that the TPM is well-define and precise proposes the big=
 advantage since it provides=0A=
a much higher level of assurance. Not only the execution environment (i.e. =
TEE vs TPM chip) is=0A=
standardized and CC-evaluated, but the function logic (i.e. TPM command set=
) as well. The FIDO code=0A=
running inside a TEE is not standardized (to the level of TPM) and most cer=
tainly not CC-evaluated.=0A=
=0A=
Therefore, the TPM is the preferred solution for anchoring trust with high =
assurance levels and it is the=0A=
duty of attestation protocols to account for its well-defined functional lo=
gic in order to establish maximum=0A=
trust in a device or statement.=0A=
=0A=
Best regards,=0A=
Andreas=0A=
________________________________________=0A=
From: RATS [rats-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Laurence Lundblade [lgl@isl=
and-resort.com]=0A=
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2019 05:08=0A=
To: rats@ietf.org=0A=
Subject: [Rats] FIDO TPM attestation=0A=
=0A=
Here=92s evidence that remote TPM attestation is not just for routers and i=
s used in non-YANG environments: https://fidoalliance.org/specs/fido-v2.0-p=
s-20150904/fido-key-attestation-v2.0-ps-20150904.html#tpm-attestation.=0A=
=0A=
In non-TPM FIDO attestation, the whole attester is in the TEE or such. In T=
PM FIDO attestation only the key storage and signing is in the TPM. There i=
s reliance on components outside of the TPM for the security of the attesta=
tion, so it isn=92t the preferred form.=0A=
=0A=
This is a reason to consider the TPM Token I=92ve mentioned. It would allow=
 remote TPM-based attestation to be used anywhere there is a TPM for use ca=
ses beyond routers and YANG.=0A=
=0A=
LL=0A=
_______________________________________________=0A=
RATS mailing list=0A=
RATS@ietf.org=0A=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats=0A=


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Thread-Topic: [Rats] FIDO TPM attestation
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From nobody Thu Nov 14 02:51:43 2019
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Subject: Re: [Rats] FIDO TPM attestation
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Me too :-)

I actually pulled it into content for my slides. It perfectly shows the 
levels of assurances involved and why people typically choose to build 
architectures on the RoT assumption.

"TPM-Fail" occurred in a physical TPM and a Firmware TPM running in a 
TEE. The failed primitive is "shielded secret" due to a side-channel 
attack (timing measurements of crypto - again...). This is an 
implementation specific attack as only two of many TPM flavors were 
affected (for now), most are not.

What does this tell us? :-)

1.) The quality of a specification does not guarantee equally secure 
products based on that spec (this will be true for everything RATS, too).

2.) If you use phyiscal TPM, TEE-TPM (so called Firmware TPM), or even 
non-certifed code in a TEE. All these are never 100% secure.

3.) You need an assumption to build your trust models on (aka provide 
the basis for decisions what to trust and what not to trust) and these 
assumption are made for RoT (trusting either the TPM and the TEE-TPM 
product that failed here was a decision).

4.) In a well-defined trust model, trust can be revoked. I am relatively 
sure that some entities will come to the conclusion not to trust the 
"TPM-Fails" anymore. In some given scopes those are not RoT anymore.

Having said all that. There are and will be secure TEE software, some of 
it CC-certified, some not, TPM in phyiscal form, as Firmware TPM, or as 
virtual TPM - and all of them will never be 100% secure all the time. I 
think everyone is agreeing that this is always true wrt everything security.

In consequence, that is not the point. You can either give up on 
security or work with the assumptions of RoT here. If you are not 
assuming and requiring any existing security-procedures as a basis - the 
whole point of remote attestation procedures would be moot, using... GNU 
keyrings would be moot :-) And I do not think that is the case.

Coming back to Andreas' comment, there is a point to the scope and 
isolation of trusted primitive functions/services provided by an 
isolated secure environment. The better the isolation/shielding, the 
better the external certification, and the better the level 
"immutability" of the primitive functions/services, the higher the level 
of assurance is. In average, sans the always reemerging timing 
side-channel attacks, of course :)

Viele Grüße,

Henk



On 14.11.19 11:11, Schönwälder, Jürgen wrote:
> I just read this morning about <http://tpm.fail/>.
> 
> /js
> 
> On Thu, Nov 14, 2019 at 09:46:04AM +0000, Fuchs, Andreas wrote:
>> The reason for this is that a TEE is a touring-complete execution environment for arbitrary code,
>> whilst the TPM further has a well-define precise functional logic instead of arbitrary code.
>> Thus only protocols that have the TPM's functional logic in mind can leverage it to the fullest and
>> FIDO unfortunately did not do so.
>>
>> However, this fact that the TPM is well-define and precise proposes the big advantage since it provides
>> a much higher level of assurance. Not only the execution environment (i.e. TEE vs TPM chip) is
>> standardized and CC-evaluated, but the function logic (i.e. TPM command set) as well. The FIDO code
>> running inside a TEE is not standardized (to the level of TPM) and most certainly not CC-evaluated.
>>
>> Therefore, the TPM is the preferred solution for anchoring trust with high assurance levels and it is the
>> duty of attestation protocols to account for its well-defined functional logic in order to establish maximum
>> trust in a device or statement.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Andreas
>> ________________________________________
>> From: RATS [rats-bounces@ietf.org] on behalf of Laurence Lundblade [lgl@island-resort.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2019 05:08
>> To: rats@ietf.org
>> Subject: [Rats] FIDO TPM attestation
>>
>> Here’s evidence that remote TPM attestation is not just for routers and is used in non-YANG environments: https://fidoalliance.org/specs/fido-v2.0-ps-20150904/fido-key-attestation-v2.0-ps-20150904.html#tpm-attestation.
>>
>> In non-TPM FIDO attestation, the whole attester is in the TEE or such. In TPM FIDO attestation only the key storage and signing is in the TPM. There is reliance on components outside of the TPM for the security of the attestation, so it isn’t the preferred form.
>>
>> This is a reason to consider the TPM Token I’ve mentioned. It would allow remote TPM-based attestation to be used anywhere there is a TPM for use cases beyond routers and YANG.
>>
>> LL
>> _______________________________________________
>> RATS mailing list
>> RATS@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> RATS mailing list
>> RATS@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
> 


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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 10:07:02AM -0800, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>=20
> I see EAT as applicable to all these worlds, where the YANG module is jus=
t for the smallish router world. So I mostly agree with Dave about proporti=
ons, however this is the IETF where YANG modules are created.  (Maybe I sho=
uld go join the W3C world and work on attestations APIs for browsers after =
RATS is done).
>

If EAT is the common format for "token", then it does not make sense
to me to define a YANG version of it. It may make sense to carry EAT
token over protocols such as NETCONF or RESTCONF and to have a YANG
module defining this may make sense for the networking device world.
This is then a definition of an interaction protocol, but not the
token format itself.

If EAT is the common format for "token", then it may make sense to be
able to include "claims" that are YANG defined data. That may be an
extension of the core EAT definition (but EAT would have to allow for
such an extension to work). There is a lot of formally defined data in
YANG modules that would be convenient to reuse as claims in a
networking world.

/js

--=20
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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Thread-Topic: [Rats] What's to EAT? - terminology clarification
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Subject: Re: [Rats] What's to EAT? - terminology clarification
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On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 09:49:05AM -0800, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>=20
> Currently there are two claims encodings, CBOR and JSON. Thanks to CDDL, =
we get from data model to encoding in a largely mechanical way and there is=
 little text needed.
>=20
>=20
>                 IM: Text
>                 |
>                 +
>                 |
>                 DM: CDDL
>                 |
>             +---+--+
>             |      |
>            CBOR   JSON
>=20
>=20
> I think this is a good, simple and effective way to proceed.

This basic model works for me.

/js

--=20
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>


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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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Hi Jürgen,

I think this is very useful input.

On the list, Laurence and I already started to discuss Claims for "YANG 
modeled data" and Claims for "TPM modled data" (referred to as tpm 
tokens recently).

The remaining questions are about: What do you think is the upcoming/TBD 
impact on the current YANG module for challenge-response RATS?

Leveraging YANG modeled data comes up again and again. Maybe there is 
good approach here.

The TPM Interface based YANG Module does not simply convey native TPM 
structure, but decomposes them down the values that are useful and 
common on the management plane because the building blocks themselves 
have well defined semantics (always ensuring canonical re-composition).

Viele Grüße,

Henk

On 14.11.19 15:06, Schönwälder, Jürgen wrote:
> On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 10:07:02AM -0800, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>>
>> I see EAT as applicable to all these worlds, where the YANG module is just for the smallish router world. So I mostly agree with Dave about proportions, however this is the IETF where YANG modules are created.  (Maybe I should go join the W3C world and work on attestations APIs for browsers after RATS is done).
>>
> 
> If EAT is the common format for "token", then it does not make sense
> to me to define a YANG version of it. It may make sense to carry EAT
> token over protocols such as NETCONF or RESTCONF and to have a YANG
> module defining this may make sense for the networking device world.
> This is then a definition of an interaction protocol, but not the
> token format itself.
> 
> If EAT is the common format for "token", then it may make sense to be
> able to include "claims" that are YANG defined data. That may be an
> extension of the core EAT definition (but EAT would have to allow for
> such an extension to work). There is a lot of formally defined data in
> YANG modules that would be convenient to reuse as claims in a
> networking world.
> 
> /js
> 


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Cc: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
To: "Fuchs, Andreas" <andreas.fuchs@sit.fraunhofer.de>
References: <62DD1AD3-6F1A-4B2B-8236-10ECCE254443@island-resort.com> <9F48E1A823B03B4790B7E6E69430724D0163BD29CD@EXCH2010B.sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] FIDO TPM attestation
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> On Nov 14, 2019, at 1:46 AM, Fuchs, Andreas =
<andreas.fuchs@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
>=20
> The FIDO code running inside a TEE is not standardized (to the level =
of TPM) and most certainly not CC-evaluated.


That=E2=80=99s not true.

The FIDO L3 and L3+ Certification program =
<https://fidoalliance.org/certification/authenticator-certification-levels=
/authenticator-level-3/> is CC (Common Criteria) based (AVA_VAN.3 and =
AVA_VAN.4). =20

Many FIDO authenticators run on secure elements which provides roughly =
equivalent security to a TPM, however since the full authenticator =
protocol runs on the turing-complete secure element the full FIDO =
protocol is secured, not just the key storage. Here=E2=80=99s one =
<https://www.yubico.com/products/yubikey-hardware/yubikey%20neo/>.

Global Platform offers a CC-based certification program for TEE=E2=80=99s =
<https://www.commoncriteriaportal.org/files/ppfiles/anssi-profil_PP-2014_0=
1.pdf>. FIDO is working on a certification program that will make use of =
that.

BSI has published a CC-based protection profile for FIDO =
<https://www.commoncriteriaportal.org/files/ppfiles/pp0096a_pdf.pdf>.

Android Keystore=E2=80=99s now supports StrongBox =
<https://proandroiddev.com/android-keystore-what-is-the-difference-between=
-strongbox-and-hardware-backed-keys-4c276ea78fd0>, which puts the keys =
in a secure element.

Qualcomm=E2=80=99s Snapdragon mobile phone chip has a secure-element =
like subsystem =
<https://www.qualcomm.com/news/releases/2019/06/25/qualcomm-snapdragon-855=
-becomes-first-mobile-soc-receive-smart-card> (not the TEE) that is =
CC-certified.

TEE and TEE-like offerings are stronger than they used to be, particular =
by supporting memory encryption.

Turing complete security products come in a range of security levels all =
the way up the security level offered by a TPM. EAT implementations can =
be just as secure and certified as TPM attestation.

LL




--Apple-Mail=_56A87F96-1E59-4751-B2AF-AF11775BA164
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
Nov 14, 2019, at 1:46 AM, Fuchs, Andreas &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:andreas.fuchs@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">andreas.fuchs@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">The FIDO code&nbsp;</span><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">running inside a TEE is not =
standardized (to the level of TPM) and most certainly not =
CC-evaluated.</span></div></blockquote></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">That=E2=80=99s not true.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; =
border: none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D"">The<a =
href=3D"https://fidoalliance.org/certification/authenticator-certification=
-levels/authenticator-level-3/" class=3D""> FIDO L3 and L3+ =
Certification program</a>&nbsp;is CC (Common Criteria) based (AVA_VAN.3 =
and AVA_VAN.4). &nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">Many FIDO =
authenticators run on secure elements which provides roughly equivalent =
security to a TPM, however since the full authenticator protocol runs on =
the turing-complete secure element the full FIDO protocol is secured, =
not just the key storage.&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://www.yubico.com/products/yubikey-hardware/yubikey%20neo/" =
class=3D"">Here=E2=80=99s one</a>.</div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Global Platform offers a&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://www.commoncriteriaportal.org/files/ppfiles/anssi-profil_PP=
-2014_01.pdf" class=3D"">CC-based certification program for TEE=E2=80=99s<=
/a>. FIDO is working on a certification program that will make use of =
that.</div></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">BSI =
has published a CC-based protection&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://www.commoncriteriaportal.org/files/ppfiles/pp0096a_pdf.pdf=
" class=3D"">profile for FIDO</a>.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Android Keystore=E2=80=99s now =
supports&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://proandroiddev.com/android-keystore-what-is-the-difference-=
between-strongbox-and-hardware-backed-keys-4c276ea78fd0" =
class=3D"">StrongBox</a>, which puts the keys in a secure =
element.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Qualcomm=E2=80=99s Snapdragon mobile phone chip has a&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://www.qualcomm.com/news/releases/2019/06/25/qualcomm-snapdra=
gon-855-becomes-first-mobile-soc-receive-smart-card" =
class=3D"">secure-element like subsystem</a>&nbsp;(not the TEE) that is =
CC-certified.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">TEE and TEE-like offerings are stronger than they used to be, =
particular by supporting memory encryption.</div></blockquote><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Turing complete security =
products come in a range of security levels all the way up the security =
level offered by a TPM. EAT implementations can be just as secure and =
certified as TPM attestation.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_56A87F96-1E59-4751-B2AF-AF11775BA164--


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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, =?utf-8?B?U2Now7Zud8OkbGRlciwgSsO8cmdlbg==?= <J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
CC: "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" <ncamwing@cisco.com>, "Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
Thread-Index: AQHVmvyW8/lytau3hU+AhCwtIdg/0aeKzjHA
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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Hi J=C3=BCrgen,
Hi Henk,

What routers need is exactly what you said. =20
 - currently: the retrieval of TPM originated/signed quotes.  =20
 - in the future: the retrieval EAT Tokens

Knowing when to retrieve these items is a function of the value of =
specific claims inside those structures.  For example, I might want to =
use RFC-8641 to make a YANG Subscription to a router so that I will be =
pushed the latest TPM quote when a specific PCR changes.  For this to =
work in the router world, we must have the structures of Quotes/Tokens =
exposed by a YANG model.

Eric

> Hi J=C3=BCrgen,
>=20
> I think this is very useful input.
>=20
> On the list, Laurence and I already started to discuss Claims for =
"YANG
> modeled data" and Claims for "TPM modled data" (referred to as tpm =
tokens
> recently).
>=20
> The remaining questions are about: What do you think is the =
upcoming/TBD
> impact on the current YANG module for challenge-response RATS?
>=20
> Leveraging YANG modeled data comes up again and again. Maybe there is
> good approach here.
>=20
> The TPM Interface based YANG Module does not simply convey native TPM
> structure, but decomposes them down the values that are useful and
> common on the management plane because the building blocks themselves
> have well defined semantics (always ensuring canonical =
re-composition).
>=20
> Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>=20
> Henk
>=20
> On 14.11.19 15:06, Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder, J=C3=BCrgen wrote:
> > On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 10:07:02AM -0800, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
> >>
> >> I see EAT as applicable to all these worlds, where the YANG module =
is just
> for the smallish router world. So I mostly agree with Dave about =
proportions,
> however this is the IETF where YANG modules are created.  (Maybe I =
should
> go join the W3C world and work on attestations APIs for browsers after =
RATS
> is done).
> >>
> >
> > If EAT is the common format for "token", then it does not make sense
> > to me to define a YANG version of it. It may make sense to carry EAT
> > token over protocols such as NETCONF or RESTCONF and to have a YANG
> > module defining this may make sense for the networking device world.
> > This is then a definition of an interaction protocol, but not the
> > token format itself.
> >
> > If EAT is the common format for "token", then it may make sense to =
be
> > able to include "claims" that are YANG defined data. That may be an
> > extension of the core EAT definition (but EAT would have to allow =
for
> > such an extension to work). There is a lot of formally defined data =
in
> > YANG modules that would be convenient to reuse as claims in a
> > networking world.
> >
> > /js
> >
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats

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From nobody Thu Nov 14 08:18:11 2019
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From: "Fuchs, Andreas" <andreas.fuchs@sit.fraunhofer.de>
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] FIDO TPM attestation
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Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 16:17:56 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Rats] FIDO TPM attestation
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We were talking about FIDO as one of many applications running in a TEE.
They rely on correctness of other TEE-apps and/or the TEE kernel
(or should I rather say TEE operating system). Thus a turing complete solut=
ion
(maybe even with loadable apps) and OS cannot be as secure as a special-pur=
pose
functional logic security provider.

Also, by design an on-chip TEE offering cannot be as secure as a physically
separated chip that incorporates smartcard technologies. You also highlight
this by providing yubikey as example which is both; a separate SC-like chip
and fixed functional logic (similar to TPMs).

To conclude: fixed functional logic and separate chips have higher assuranc=
e
levels than turing-complete (loadable) areas of the main cpu.

And to your original point: TPMs are the preferred solution for attestation
in contrast to to a TEE-based approach, just as YubiKeys et al are preferre=
d
for FIDO in contrast to a TEE-based approach.

________________________________
From: Laurence Lundblade [lgl@island-resort.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2019 16:51
To: Fuchs, Andreas
Cc: rats@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Rats] FIDO TPM attestation


On Nov 14, 2019, at 1:46 AM, Fuchs, Andreas <andreas.fuchs@sit.fraunhofer.d=
e<mailto:andreas.fuchs@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:

The FIDO code running inside a TEE is not standardized (to the level of TPM=
) and most certainly not CC-evaluated.

That=92s not true.

The FIDO L3 and L3+ Certification program<https://fidoalliance.org/certific=
ation/authenticator-certification-levels/authenticator-level-3/> is CC (Com=
mon Criteria) based (AVA_VAN.3 and AVA_VAN.4).

Many FIDO authenticators run on secure elements which provides roughly equi=
valent security to a TPM, however since the full authenticator protocol run=
s on the turing-complete secure element the full FIDO protocol is secured, =
not just the key storage. Here=92s one<https://www.yubico.com/products/yubi=
key-hardware/yubikey%20neo/>.

Global Platform offers a CC-based certification program for TEE=92s<https:/=
/www.commoncriteriaportal.org/files/ppfiles/anssi-profil_PP-2014_01.pdf>. F=
IDO is working on a certification program that will make use of that.

BSI has published a CC-based protection profile for FIDO<https://www.common=
criteriaportal.org/files/ppfiles/pp0096a_pdf.pdf>.

Android Keystore=92s now supports StrongBox<https://proandroiddev.com/andro=
id-keystore-what-is-the-difference-between-strongbox-and-hardware-backed-ke=
ys-4c276ea78fd0>, which puts the keys in a secure element.

Qualcomm=92s Snapdragon mobile phone chip has a secure-element like subsyst=
em<https://www.qualcomm.com/news/releases/2019/06/25/qualcomm-snapdragon-85=
5-becomes-first-mobile-soc-receive-smart-card> (not the TEE) that is CC-cer=
tified.

TEE and TEE-like offerings are stronger than they used to be, particular by=
 supporting memory encryption.

Turing complete security products come in a range of security levels all th=
e way up the security level offered by a TPM. EAT implementations can be ju=
st as secure and certified as TPM attestation.

LL




--_000_9F48E1A823B03B4790B7E6E69430724D0163BD5B5CEXCH2010Bsitf_
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<html dir=3D"ltr">
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-1=
252">
<style type=3D"text/css" id=3D"owaParaStyle"></style>
</head>
<body class=3D"" style=3D"word-wrap:break-word; line-break:after-white-spac=
e" fpstyle=3D"1" ocsi=3D"0">
<div style=3D"direction: ltr;font-family: Tahoma;color: #000000;font-size: =
10pt;">
<div>We were talking about FIDO as one of many applications running in a TE=
E.</div>
<div>They rely on correctness of other TEE-apps and/or the TEE kernel</div>
<div>(or should I rather say TEE operating system). Thus a turing complete =
solution</div>
<div>(maybe even with loadable apps) and OS cannot be as secure as a specia=
l-purpose</div>
<div>functional logic security provider.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Also, by design an on-chip TEE offering cannot be as secure as a physi=
cally</div>
<div>separated chip that incorporates smartcard technologies. You also high=
light</div>
<div>this by providing yubikey as example which is both; a separate SC-like=
 chip</div>
<div>and fixed functional logic (similar to TPMs).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>To conclude: fixed functional logic and separate chips have higher ass=
urance<br>
</div>
<div>levels than turing-complete (loadable) areas of the main cpu.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>And to your original point: TPMs are the preferred solution for attest=
ation</div>
<div>in contrast to to a TEE-based approach, just as YubiKeys et al are pre=
ferred</div>
<div>for FIDO in contrast to a TEE-based approach.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: Times New Roman; color: #000000; font-size: 16px=
">
<hr tabindex=3D"-1">
<div id=3D"divRpF468627" style=3D"direction: ltr;"><font size=3D"2" face=3D=
"Tahoma" color=3D"#000000"><b>From:</b> Laurence Lundblade [lgl@island-reso=
rt.com]<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, November 14, 2019 16:51<br>
<b>To:</b> Fuchs, Andreas<br>
<b>Cc:</b> rats@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Rats] FIDO TPM attestation<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div></div>
<div><br class=3D"">
<div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">On Nov 14, 2019, at 1:46 AM, Fuchs, Andreas &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:andreas.fuchs@sit.fraunhofer.de" class=3D"" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D=
"noopener noreferrer">andreas.fuchs@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class=3D""><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica; font-size:=
12px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; text-al=
ign:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; word-s=
pacing:0px; text-decoration:none; float:none; display:inline!important">The
 FIDO code&nbsp;</span><span class=3D"" style=3D"font-family:Helvetica; fon=
t-size:12px; font-style:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; =
text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal;=
 word-spacing:0px; text-decoration:none; float:none; display:inline!importa=
nt">running
 inside a TEE is not standardized (to the level of TPM) and most certainly =
not CC-evaluated.</span></div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">That=92s not true.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 40px; border:none; padding:0px=
">
<div class=3D"">The<a href=3D"https://fidoalliance.org/certification/authen=
ticator-certification-levels/authenticator-level-3/" class=3D"" target=3D"_=
blank" rel=3D"noopener noreferrer"> FIDO L3 and L3&#43; Certification progr=
am</a>&nbsp;is CC (Common Criteria) based (AVA_VAN.3
 and AVA_VAN.4). &nbsp;</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">Many FIDO authenticators run on secure elements which provi=
des roughly equivalent security to a TPM, however since the full authentica=
tor protocol runs on the turing-complete secure element the full FIDO proto=
col is secured, not just the key storage.&nbsp;<a href=3D"https://www.yubic=
o.com/products/yubikey-hardware/yubikey%20neo/" class=3D"" target=3D"_blank=
" rel=3D"noopener noreferrer">Here=92s
 one</a>.</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
</div>
<div class=3D"">
<div class=3D"">Global Platform offers a&nbsp;<a href=3D"https://www.common=
criteriaportal.org/files/ppfiles/anssi-profil_PP-2014_01.pdf" class=3D"" ta=
rget=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noopener noreferrer">CC-based certification program =
for TEE=92s</a>. FIDO is working on a certification
 program that will make use of that.</div>
</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">BSI has published a CC-based protection&nbsp;<a href=3D"htt=
ps://www.commoncriteriaportal.org/files/ppfiles/pp0096a_pdf.pdf" class=3D""=
 target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noopener noreferrer">profile for FIDO</a>.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Android Keystore=92s now supports&nbsp;<a href=3D"https://p=
roandroiddev.com/android-keystore-what-is-the-difference-between-strongbox-=
and-hardware-backed-keys-4c276ea78fd0" class=3D"" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"=
noopener noreferrer">StrongBox</a>, which puts the
 keys in a secure element.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Qualcomm=92s Snapdragon mobile phone chip has a&nbsp;<a hre=
f=3D"https://www.qualcomm.com/news/releases/2019/06/25/qualcomm-snapdragon-=
855-becomes-first-mobile-soc-receive-smart-card" class=3D"" target=3D"_blan=
k" rel=3D"noopener noreferrer">secure-element like
 subsystem</a>&nbsp;(not the TEE) that is CC-certified.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">TEE and TEE-like offerings are stronger than they used to b=
e, particular by supporting memory encryption.</div>
</blockquote>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">Turing complete security products come in a range of securi=
ty levels all the way up the security level offered by a TPM. EAT implement=
ations can be just as secure and certified as TPM attestation.</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D"">LL</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
<div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_9F48E1A823B03B4790B7E6E69430724D0163BD5B5CEXCH2010Bsitf_--


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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
To: =?utf-8?B?U2Now7Zud8OkbGRlciwgSsO8cmdlbg==?= <J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Rats] What's to EAT? - terminology clarification
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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, =?utf-8?B?U2Now7Zud8OkbGRlciwgSsO8cmdlbg==?= <J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
CC: "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" <ncamwing@cisco.com>, "Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>, Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 20:00:45 +0000
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References: <8B173958-FC2A-4D1D-A81C-F324AB632CD7@cisco.com> <147F9159-6055-4E55-ABDC-43DFE3498BF1@island-resort.com> <ce5f8206-74dc-36bb-0093-a93045d5c67f@sit.fraunhofer.de> <0A7E3A4F-8534-4E98-BCB7-1454E07699F4@island-resort.com> <C3AE2645-49C8-4313-BCED-02FEB576B614@cisco.com> <1C8A1884-A37D-45E3-8C11-2FC5A083B245@island-resort.com> <HE1PR0702MB375366C5F7FE5C497C35D73B8F740@HE1PR0702MB3753.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <7106C9D3-8ED1-419E-81F8-4CDA799BEDAE@intel.com> <MWHPR21MB07844F61BEFAE03F9E7DD290A3770@MWHPR21MB0784.namprd21.prod.outlook.com> <6E7D64B4-2049-4D0A-ADC5-CA3F0647779B@island-resort.com> <20191114140600.itrr5mjiysgutsj5@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <59707a99-8cec-2005-b1ee-72f171234cbe@sit.fraunhofer.de> <DM6PR11MB4154A67956517DF2D9D305ADA1710@DM6PR11MB4154.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, =?utf-8?B?U2Now7Zud8OkbGRlciwgSsO8cmdlbg==?= <J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
CC: "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" <ncamwing@cisco.com>, "Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>, Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2019 20:42:42 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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My belief is that a Relying Party will rarely want the full universe of =
signed claims coming from some Attester's chip.   We need ways to =
pre-filter the results.  How would we do this without a model?

To fill this need, I always hoped that EAT claims could become leafs of =
some future YANG data model.  This would allow GET and SUBSCRIBE =
requests to be made to an Attester.  What would be returned to the =
Relying Party would be the signed results of interest from some chip =
within the Attester. =20

I have no position on whether the WG wants to integrate GET and =
SUBSCRIBE requests so that they can provision claims are ultimately =
placed within the EAT token.

Eric

> @Eric Voit (evoit) Is this suggesting that RATS architecture should =
define a
> token-like DM structure that is a *request* "token" having only tags
> identifying interesting claims while a *response* "token" would have =
claims
> with data values populated?
>=20
> =EF=BB=BFOn 11/14/19, 8:02 AM, "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com> =
wrote:
>=20
>     Hi J=C3=BCrgen,
>     Hi Henk,
>=20
>     What routers need is exactly what you said.
>      - currently: the retrieval of TPM originated/signed quotes.
>      - in the future: the retrieval EAT Tokens
>=20
>     Knowing when to retrieve these items is a function of the value of =
specific
> claims inside those structures.  For example, I might want to use =
RFC-8641 to
> make a YANG Subscription to a router so that I will be pushed the =
latest TPM
> quote when a specific PCR changes.  For this to work in the router =
world, we
> must have the structures of Quotes/Tokens exposed by a YANG model.
>=20
>     Eric
>=20
>     > Hi J=C3=BCrgen,
>     >
>     > I think this is very useful input.
>     >
>     > On the list, Laurence and I already started to discuss Claims =
for "YANG
>     > modeled data" and Claims for "TPM modled data" (referred to as =
tpm
> tokens
>     > recently).
>     >
>     > The remaining questions are about: What do you think is the
> upcoming/TBD
>     > impact on the current YANG module for challenge-response RATS?
>     >
>     > Leveraging YANG modeled data comes up again and again. Maybe =
there
> is
>     > good approach here.
>     >
>     > The TPM Interface based YANG Module does not simply convey =
native
> TPM
>     > structure, but decomposes them down the values that are useful =
and
>     > common on the management plane because the building blocks
> themselves
>     > have well defined semantics (always ensuring canonical =
re-composition).
>     >
>     > Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>     >
>     > Henk
>     >
>     > On 14.11.19 15:06, Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder, J=C3=BCrgen wrote:
>     > > On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 10:07:02AM -0800, Laurence Lundblade
> wrote:
>     > >>
>     > >> I see EAT as applicable to all these worlds, where the YANG =
module is
> just
>     > for the smallish router world. So I mostly agree with Dave about
> proportions,
>     > however this is the IETF where YANG modules are created.  (Maybe =
I
> should
>     > go join the W3C world and work on attestations APIs for browsers =
after
> RATS
>     > is done).
>     > >>
>     > >
>     > > If EAT is the common format for "token", then it does not make =
sense
>     > > to me to define a YANG version of it. It may make sense to =
carry EAT
>     > > token over protocols such as NETCONF or RESTCONF and to have a
> YANG
>     > > module defining this may make sense for the networking device =
world.
>     > > This is then a definition of an interaction protocol, but not =
the
>     > > token format itself.
>     > >
>     > > If EAT is the common format for "token", then it may make =
sense to be
>     > > able to include "claims" that are YANG defined data. That may =
be an
>     > > extension of the core EAT definition (but EAT would have to =
allow for
>     > > such an extension to work). There is a lot of formally defined =
data in
>     > > YANG modules that would be convenient to reuse as claims in a
>     > > networking world.
>     > >
>     > > /js
>     > >
>     >
>     > _______________________________________________
>     > RATS mailing list
>     > RATS@ietf.org
>     > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>=20


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From: "Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)" <frank.xialiang@huawei.com>
To: =?utf-8?B?U2Now7Zud8OkbGRlciwgSsO8cmdlbg==?= <J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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From: "Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)" <frank.xialiang@huawei.com>
To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, =?utf-8?B?U2Now7Zud8OkbGRlciwgSsO8cmdlbg==?= <J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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From: Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
CC: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, "Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>, "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" <ncamwing@cisco.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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--_000_MWHPR21MB07840B6CF7BEE0A11ABE54BFA3700MWHPR21MB0784namp_--


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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: Dave Thaler <dthaler=40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
CC: "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" <ncamwing@cisco.com>, "Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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From: Dave Thaler, November 15, 2019 2:39 AM



Netconf is not the only protocol supported by routers.

Routers also support IPv4, IPv6, link-layer protocols such as Ethernet, =
routing protocols, often things like DHCP relay, RADIUS, etc.

<Eric> Below I would have said " Router/YANG" below rather than =
"Router/NETCONF".  =20

=20

I have not yet seen a compelling reason to use a pull-based mechanism =
instead of a push-based mechanism via another protocol the routers =
already support.

<Eric> Router vendors want push-based mechanisms too.  And NETCONF does =
push.  See RFC-8640 and RFC-5277.

=20

The only reason I=E2=80=99ve heard so far is =E2=80=9Cbecause they =
support netconf and we=E2=80=99re used to it=E2=80=9D, to which the =
counter argument is as above:

they support other things too and we=E2=80=99re used to them too.

<Eric> There is piles of documentation in the IETF and beyond detailing =
the reasoning and extent of consolidation on YANG for network =
management.    IETF, IEEE, MEF, OpenConfig, and others forums are =
defining these.  I wouldn't expect another anytime soon. =20

=20

NETCONF can support YANG. Other transports can support YANG.   The =
current draft under an adoption call does not specifically reference =
NETCONF.

=20

In order to know who to pull data from, the Verifier has to have some =
indication from the Attester that triggers the attestation request=20

indicated as Step 1 in draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation.  =
So in reality, there has to be a step before step 1,

whereby the Attester does something that makes the Attester discoverable =
by the Verifier.   That step could have included the EAT or the TPM data

expressed in the YANG draft, or whatever else, and then you=E2=80=99ve =
avoided the need for netconf, and reduced the number of round trips,

improving latency and bandwidth.

<Eric> It is already possible to subscribe to existing proprietary YANG =
attestation models.  This requires zero extra round-trips.   The push =
can be leave the Attester in <1 sec.

=20

If there is a compelling reason to support a pull-based mechanism, and =
we get consensus that we need it, then great.

But so far I haven=E2=80=99t heard one.

<Eric> A YANG model supports both push and pull.  Application vendors =
want a standard attestation model.  That is why you have many network =
vendors authoring this YANG draft under the adoption call.

=20

Honestly I don't understand the push-back.   This should be a =
no-brainer.

=20

/Eric

=20

Dave

=20

From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com =
<mailto:lgl@island-resort.com> >=20
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2019 10:07 AM
To: Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com <mailto:dthaler@microsoft.com> >
Cc: Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com <mailto:ned.smith@intel.com> >; =
Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com =
<mailto:ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com> >; Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) =
<ncamwing@cisco.com <mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com> >; rats@ietf.org =
<mailto:rats@ietf.org> ; Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> >
Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang =
module draft

=20

My version of technology bases for attestation is something like this:

=20

Router/Netconf World

Millions of devices. Currently TPM oriented. Long possible transition to =
EAT. YANG used to create very specific fine-grained interactions. No =
privacy issues.

=20

Web Browser World

Billions of devices. Current attestation use is primarily WebAuthN / =
FIDO. JWT is used heavily for authentication so would be more EAT =
oriented, but TPM attestation is supported in FIDO. Larger use of =
attestation may evolve. Fine-grained interactions are with WebAPIs =
(Javascript) (sort of parallel to YANG for routers). Big privacy issues.

=20

Mobile App World

Billions of devices. Main attestation use is Android=E2=80=99s Keystore. =
This is EAT-like, but based on X.509. Fine grained interactions are =
Android APIs. I may be out of date, but so far IoS doesn=E2=80=99t do =
attestation. Privacy issues vary by app.

=20

IoT World

Billions of devices most likely going to trillions. Attestation is a =
critical enabling feature in this world. There are lots of protocols and =
formats involved. TPMs are too expensive for many of these, but are =
probably in use somewhere. No privacy issues for a large portion of this =
world.

=20

The router world is the smallest, but it is =E2=80=9Cwell =
represented=E2=80=9D because this is the IETF.

=20

I see EAT as applicable to all these worlds, where the YANG module is =
just for the smallish router world. So I mostly agree with Dave about =
proportions, however this is the IETF where YANG modules are created.  =
(Maybe I should go join the W3C world and work on attestations APIs for =
browsers after RATS is done).

=20

LL

=20

=20

=20

On Nov 11, 2019, at 5:43 PM, Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com =
<mailto:dthaler@microsoft.com> > wrote:

=20

As far as I can understand from draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module-01 =
and

draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-01, they break down the =
use case

space as follows:

=20

                        Requirements?

         +--------------+---------------+---------++---------------

         |  RoT         | Host Firewall | Privacy ||   Solution   =20

         |  Type        |   Enabled     | Needed  ||    Pieces    =20

         +--------------+---------------+---------++---------------

      1  |  SGX         | No            | No      ||

      2  |  SGX         | No            | Yes     ||

      3  |  SGX         | Yes           | No      ||

      4  |  SGX         | Yes           | Yes     ||

      5  |  TrustZone   | No            | No      ||

      6  |  TrustZone   | No            | Yes     ||

      7  |  TrustZone   | Yes           | No      ||

      8  |  TrustZone   | Yes           | Yes     ||

      9  |  TPM         | No            | No      || =
draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module-01

     10  |  TPM         | No            | Yes     ||

     11  |  TPM         | Yes           | No      ||

     12  |  TPM         | Yes           | Yes     ||

     13  |SecureElement | No            | No      ||

     14  |SecureElement | No            | Yes     ||

     15  |SecureElement | Yes           | No      ||

     16  |SecureElement | Yes           | Yes     ||

     17  | Firmware     | No            | No      ||

     18  | Firmware     | No            | Yes     ||

     19  | Firmware     | Yes           | No      ||

     20  | Firmware     | Yes           | Yes     ||

     ... |   ...        |               |         ||

=20

And draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-01 further scopes =
itself down

by only being applicable to cases with "embedded" apps only =3D Yes, and =
where

the security policy is only an Exact match against reference values =3D =
Yes.

I believe that the yang draft doesn't have those two restrictions, from =
my reading.

However, the point is that both drafts are VERY narrow, and in the table =
shown above,

only address 1 out of 20 possibilies in that space.

=20

In contrast, the TEEP WG decided that it was not interested in narrow =
scopings

(specifically something Global Platform specific), but instead wanted =
one general solution.

=20

If the RATS WG spends effort on something that only addresses a single =
row out of 20+ rows,

then do we expect 19+ other solutions to also be done in the WG?  Or =
could we work on things

that are broader and happen to also work for row 9?

=20

I've seen others commenting on the fact that the YANG module only =
supports TPMs and not

other things (EATs etc), which would just add support for a couple more =
rows, but still not

be general.

=20

Personally, I would much rather see the WG spend effort on things that =
really are generic,

i.e., work with or without host firewalls, work with multiple RoT/TEE =
types, etc., rather

than seeing an explosion of point solutions.

=20

Dave

=20

From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org> > On =
Behalf Of Smith, Ned
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2019 10:12 AM
To: Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com =
<mailto:ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com> >; Laurence Lundblade =
<lgl@island-resort.com <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com> >; Nancy =
Cam-Winget (ncamwing) <ncamwing@cisco.com <mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com> >
Cc: rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org> ; Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> >
Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang =
module draft

=20

Right. This implies the RATS =E2=80=9Ctoken=E2=80=9D should support =
existing =E2=80=9Cbinary=E2=80=9D formats as an encapsulation (signed by =
a second TA where the TPM is a first TA) or as a conveyance (unsigned?) =
token. Possibly, the only added value of the latter is a tag that =
identifies it as a TPM binary format?

=20

=20

On 11/10/19, 23:21 PM, "RATS on behalf of Oliver, Ian (Nokia - =
FI/Espoo)" <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>  on =
behalf of ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com =
<mailto:ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com> > wrote:

=20

> Remote TPM attestations are useful and necessary the short run, but =
are of very limited capability. I believe that > EAT will replace TPM =
attestations in the long run (maybe decades) because they are far more =
expressive. I know > others believe that too.=20

=20

I would disagree with the statement of "short run" ... TPM is =
practically the only existing standardised (hardware, software, =
firmware, measurement - x86 only etc) hardware root of trust in common =
use, ie: practically all x86 machines,  The attestation mechanisms =
provided are going to be around for a very long time. =20

=20

>From telco experience, 30 years ago we said SS7 would only be around in =
the short term.

=20

> Thus, I am opposed to adoption with the current TPM-only draft. =
I=E2=80=99d be OK with the current draft and a promise > to add EAT to =
it.

=20

Agree

=20

Ian

=20

--=20

Dr. Ian Oliver

Cybersecurity Research

Distinguished Member of Technical Staff

Nokia Bell Labs

+358 50 483 6237

=20

  _____ =20

From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com =
<mailto:lgl@island-resort.com> >
Sent: 11 November 2019 00:44
To: Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) <ncamwing@cisco.com =
<mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com> >
Cc: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> >; rats@ietf..org =
<mailto:rats@ietf..org>  <rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org> >
Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang =
module draft=20

=20

=20

On Nov 10, 2019, at 2:20 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) =
<ncamwing@cisco.com <mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com> > wrote:

=20

So, Laurence, are you still OK with the adoption of the current draft =
with a rename for now?
Thanks, Nancy

=20

I think the value add to the larger RATS effort of adding EAT support to =
this YANG protocol is really high. It a core thing to do that helps =
bring together the two attestation worlds and make the TPM and EAT work =
here less like ships in the night.

=20

Remote TPM attestations are useful and necessary the short run, but are =
of very limited capability. I believe that EAT will replace TPM =
attestations in the long run (maybe decades) because they are far more =
expressive. I know others believe that too.=20

=20

If we don=E2=80=99t include EAT in the YANG mode it is sort of like =
defining HTTP to only convey HTML to the exclusion of PDF. We=E2=80=99re =
defining an attestation protocol that can only move one kind of =
attestation even though we have consensus on what the other one looks =
like.

=20

It seems relatively simple to add EAT support (or promise to add EAT =
support). Pretty sure I heard Henk agree to add it.

=20

Thus, I am opposed to adoption with the current TPM-only draft. =
I=E2=80=99d be OK with the current draft and a promise to add EAT to it.

=20

LL

=20

=20


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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue =
vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> Dave Thaler, November 15, 2019 2:39 =
AM<br><br></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Netconf =
is not the only protocol supported by routers.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Routers also support =
IPv4, IPv6, link-layer protocols such as Ethernet, routing protocols, =
often things like DHCP relay, RADIUS, etc.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&lt;Eric&gt; Below I would have said &quot; =
Router/YANG&quot; below rather than =
&quot;Router/NETCONF&quot;.=C2=A0=C2=A0 <o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>I have not yet seen a compelling reason to use a =
pull-based mechanism instead of a push-based mechanism via another =
protocol the routers already support.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&lt;Eric&gt; Router vendors want push-based mechanisms =
too.=C2=A0 And NETCONF does push.=C2=A0 See RFC-8640 and =
RFC-5277.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>The only reason =
I=E2=80=99ve heard so far is =E2=80=9Cbecause they support netconf and =
we=E2=80=99re used to it=E2=80=9D, to which the counter argument is as =
above:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>they support other things too and we=E2=80=99re =
used to them too.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>&lt;Eric&gt; =
There is piles of documentation in the IETF and beyond detailing the =
reasoning and extent of consolidation on YANG for network =
management.=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0IETF, IEEE, MEF, OpenConfig, and others =
forums are defining these.=C2=A0 I wouldn't expect another anytime =
soon.=C2=A0 <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>NETCONF can support YANG. Other transports can support =
YANG.=C2=A0=C2=A0 The current draft under an adoption call does not =
specifically reference NETCONF.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>In order to know who to pull data from, the =
Verifier has to have some indication from the Attester that triggers the =
attestation request <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>indicated as Step 1 in =
draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation.&nbsp; So in reality, =
there has to be a step before step 1,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>whereby the Attester =
does something that makes the Attester discoverable by the =
Verifier.&nbsp;&nbsp; That step could have included the EAT or the TPM =
data<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>expressed in the YANG draft, or whatever else, =
and then you=E2=80=99ve avoided the need for netconf, and reduced the =
number of round trips,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>improving latency and =
bandwidth.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>&lt;Eric&gt; It is =
already possible to subscribe to existing proprietary YANG attestation =
models.=C2=A0 This requires zero extra round-trips.=C2=A0 =C2=A0The push =
can be leave the Attester in &lt;1 sec.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>If there is a compelling reason to support a =
pull-based mechanism, and we get consensus that we need it, then =
great.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>But so far I haven=E2=80=99t heard =
one.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>&lt;Eric&gt; A YANG model =
supports both push and pull. =C2=A0Application vendors want a standard =
attestation model.=C2=A0 That is why you have many network vendors =
authoring this YANG draft under the adoption call.<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Honestly I =
don't understand the push-back.=C2=A0=C2=A0 This should be a =
no-brainer.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>/Eric<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Dave<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt; =
<br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 13, 2019 10:07 AM<br><b>To:</b> =
Dave Thaler &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dthaler@microsoft.com">dthaler@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br><b=
>Cc:</b> Smith, Ned &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com">ned.smith@intel.com</a>&gt;; Oliver, =
Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com">ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs=
.com</a>&gt;; Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com">ncamwing@cisco.com</a>&gt;; <a =
href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org">rats@ietf.org</a>; Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunho=
fer.de</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after =
draft rename) for Yang module draft<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>My =
version of technology bases for attestation is something like this:<span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-left:30.0pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bott=
om:5.0pt'><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>Router/Netconf =
World</b><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Millions of =
devices. Currently TPM oriented. Long possible transition to EAT. YANG =
used to create very specific fine-grained interactions. No privacy =
issues.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><b>Web Browser World</b><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Billions of devices. Current attestation use is =
primarily WebAuthN / FIDO. JWT is used heavily for authentication so =
would be more EAT oriented, but TPM attestation is supported in FIDO. =
Larger use of attestation may evolve. Fine-grained interactions are with =
WebAPIs (Javascript) (sort of parallel to YANG for routers). Big privacy =
issues.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><b>Mobile App World</b><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Billions of devices. Main attestation use is =
Android=E2=80=99s Keystore. This is EAT-like, but based on X.509. Fine =
grained interactions are Android APIs. I may be out of date, but so far =
IoS doesn=E2=80=99t do attestation. Privacy issues vary by =
app.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><b>IoT World</b><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Billions of devices most likely going to trillions. =
Attestation is a critical enabling feature in this world. There are lots =
of protocols and formats involved. TPMs are too expensive for many of =
these, but are probably in use somewhere. No privacy issues for a large =
portion of this world.<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>The router world is the smallest, but it is =
=E2=80=9Cwell represented=E2=80=9D because this is the =
IETF.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I =
see EAT as applicable to all these worlds, where the YANG module is just =
for the smallish router world. So I mostly agree with Dave about =
proportions, however this is the IETF where YANG modules are created. =
&nbsp;(Maybe I should go join the W3C world and work on attestations =
APIs for browsers after RATS is done).<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>LL<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>On Nov 11, 2019, at 5:43 PM, Dave Thaler &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dthaler@microsoft.com">dthaler@microsoft.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>As far as I can =
understand from draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module-01 =
and</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-01=
, they break down the use case</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>space as =
follows:</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Requirements?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
+--------------+---------------+---------++---------------</span><o:p></o=
:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp; =
RoT&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | Host Firewall | =
Privacy ||&nbsp;&nbsp; Solution&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp; =
Type&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Enabled&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | Needed&nbsp; ||&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
Pieces&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;+--------------+---------------+---------++----=
-----------</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; 1&nbsp; |&nbsp; SGX&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; 2&nbsp; |&nbsp; SGX&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; 3&nbsp; |&nbsp; SGX&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;| =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; 4&nbsp; |&nbsp; SGX&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; 5&nbsp; |&nbsp; TrustZone&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; 6&nbsp; |&nbsp; TrustZone&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; 7&nbsp; |&nbsp; TrustZone&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; 8&nbsp; |&nbsp; TrustZone&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; 9&nbsp; |&nbsp; TPM&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; || =
draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module-01</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
10&nbsp; |&nbsp; TPM&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
11&nbsp; |&nbsp; TPM&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp; =
&nbsp;&nbsp;12&nbsp; |&nbsp; =
TPM&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
13&nbsp; |SecureElement | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
14&nbsp; |SecureElement | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
15&nbsp; |SecureElement | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
16&nbsp; |SecureElement | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;||</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
17&nbsp; | Firmware&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
18&nbsp; | Firmware&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
19&nbsp; | Firmware&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
No&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
20&nbsp; | Firmware&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; | =
Yes&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ||</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
... |&nbsp;&nbsp; ...&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
 &nbsp;&nbsp;|&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; =
||</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>And =
draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-01 further scopes itself =
down</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>by only being applicable to cases with =
&quot;embedded&quot; apps only =3D Yes, and =
where</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>the security policy is only an Exact match =
against reference values =3D Yes.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>I believe that the yang =
draft doesn't have those two restrictions, from my =
reading.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>However, the point is that both drafts are VERY =
narrow, and in the table shown above,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>only address 1 out of 20 =
possibilies in that space.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>In contrast, the TEEP WG =
decided that it was not interested in narrow =
scopings</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>(specifically something Global Platform =
specific), but instead wanted one general =
solution.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>If the RATS WG spends =
effort on something that only addresses a single row out of 20+ =
rows,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>then do we expect 19+ other solutions to also be =
done in the WG?&nbsp; Or could we work on things</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>that are broader and =
happen to also work for row 9?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>I've seen others =
commenting on the fact that the YANG module only supports TPMs and =
not</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>other things (EATs etc), which would just add =
support for a couple more rows, but still not</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>be =
general.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Personally, I would much =
rather see the WG spend effort on things that really are =
generic,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>i.e., work with or without host firewalls, work =
with multiple RoT/TEE types, etc., rather</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#1F497D'>than seeing an explosion =
of point solutions.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>Dave</span><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div =
style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> RATS &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; =
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Smith, Ned<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 11, 2019 =
10:12 AM<br><b>To:</b> Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com">ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs=
.com</a>&gt;; Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt;; =
Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com">ncamwing@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</=
b> <a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org">rats@ietf.org</a>; Henk Birkholz =
&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunho=
fer.de</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after =
draft rename) for Yang module draft<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Right. This =
implies the RATS =E2=80=9Ctoken=E2=80=9D should support existing =
=E2=80=9Cbinary=E2=80=9D formats as an encapsulation (signed by a second =
TA where the TPM is a first TA) or as a conveyance (unsigned?) token. =
Possibly, the only added value of the latter is a tag that identifies it =
as a TPM binary format?<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>On 11/10/19, 23:21 PM, &quot;RATS on behalf =
of Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a> on =
behalf of <a =
href=3D"mailto:ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com">ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs=
.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&gt; Remote TPM attestations are useful and =
necessary the short run, but are of very limited capability. I believe =
that &gt; EAT will replace TPM attestations in the long run (maybe =
decades) because they are far more expressive. I know &gt; others =
believe that too.&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>I would disagree with the statement of =
&quot;short run&quot; ... TPM is practically the only existing =
standardised (hardware, software, firmware, measurement - x86 only etc) =
hardware root of trust in common use, ie: practically all x86 =
machines,&nbsp; The attestation mechanisms provided are going to be =
around for a very long time.&nbsp; </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>From telco experience, 30 years ago we said =
SS7 would only be around in the short =
term.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&gt; Thus, I am opposed to adoption with the =
current TPM-only draft. I=E2=80=99d be OK with the current draft and a =
promise &gt; to add EAT to it.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Agree</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in;background:white'><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Ian</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div =
id=3DSignature><div id=3Ddivtagdefaultwrapper><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.=
5in'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'>-- <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.=
5in'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'>Dr. Ian Oliver<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.=
5in'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'>Cybersecurity Research<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.=
5in'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'>Distinguished Member of Technical =
Staff<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.=
5in'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'>Nokia Bell Labs<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.=
5in'><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'>+358 50 483 6237<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'text-align:center'><hr size=3D1 width=3D"99%" =
align=3Dcenter></div></div><div id=3DdivRplyFwdMsg><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><b>From:</b> Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt;<br><b=
>Sent:</b> 11 November 2019 00:44<br><b>To:</b> Nancy Cam-Winget =
(ncamwing) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com">ncamwing@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</=
b> Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunho=
fer.de</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf..org">rats@ietf..org</a> =
&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org">rats@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b> =
Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft =
<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><div><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>On Nov 10, 2019, at 2:20 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget =
(ncamwing) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com">ncamwing@cisco.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica",sans-serif'>So, =
Laurence, are you still OK with the adoption of the current draft with a =
rename for now?<br>Thanks, =
Nancy</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote></div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>I think the value add to =
the larger RATS effort of adding EAT support to this YANG protocol is =
really high. It a core thing to do that helps bring together the two =
attestation worlds and make the TPM and EAT work here less like ships in =
the night.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>Remote TPM attestations are =
useful and necessary the short run, but are of very limited capability. =
I believe that EAT will replace TPM attestations in the long run (maybe =
decades) because they are far more expressive. I know others believe =
that too.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>If we don=E2=80=99t include =
EAT in the YANG mode it is sort of like defining HTTP to only convey =
HTML to the exclusion of PDF. We=E2=80=99re defining an attestation =
protocol that can only move one kind of attestation even though we have =
consensus on what the other one looks like.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>It seems relatively simple =
to add EAT support (or promise to add EAT support). Pretty sure I heard =
Henk agree to add it.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>Thus, I am opposed to =
adoption with the current TPM-only draft. I=E2=80=99d be OK with the =
current draft and a promise to add EAT to =
it.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>LL<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-left:.5in'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div><=
/div></div></blockquote></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New =
Roman",serif'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div></body></html>
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To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>, Dave Thaler <dthaler=40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
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From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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Hi Dave,

I'd like to highlight and elaborate on a very specific topic here:

Yes, routers (or network equipment ranging from AS routing to access 
layer distribution) most defiantly use "IPv4, IPv6, link-layer protocols 
such as Ethernet, routing protocols, often things like DHCP relay, 
RADIUS". I am in total agreement with that. This is (in itself) 
obviously true.

I'd dare to say every RATS solution will be using IPv4, IPv6, 
Industrial/Automotive EtherNet (please note the spelling) and various 
routing protocols & AAA solutions. That is true, too.

I'd like to add to that (with the exception of everything carrying EAP 
et. al. - that is an interesting path to explore) that it is very 
obvious that of course layer 2/3 & layer 4 solutions are involved 
always. But that this natural, yet coincidental, fact has an impact on 
all of rats RATS - via meaningful, structured synergized solution that 
are base on these assumption - seems like a non sequitur to me. Please 
help me understand.

Yes, the afore mentioned heterogeneous mix of things is used - literally 
by basically everything.

RATS TUDA for example could use ICMP Echo Requests. Is it possible? In 
Yokohama we concluded - sure! Is it an academic exercise and therefore a 
solution looking for a problem - probably yes.

What I am trying to say is: DHCP (via options), AAA (via extension) are 
used in the scope of routing equipment - sure! - and can be augmented 
with useful and believable evidence/attestation results about 
trustworthiness about a remote peer.

But is that a reason to not pursue the near term target of creating a 
unified procedure to establish unified trust relationships wrt 
trustworthiness between interconnected network equipment?

No.

It is actually very important to do this today. This neither implies 
niche solutions nor does it imply a lack of extensible later.

I am literally confuzzled by the notion that this approach is not 
addressing an immediate need today in a meaningful manner.

Dave, could you please elaborate why this is not useful, or 
counterproductive, or not in scope? I find your table to be a 
misrepresentation of the actual current relevance due to its initial 
column being types of RoT. Please help me to understand what you are 
trying to say here.

Viele Grüße,

Henk

On 15.11.19 15:38, Eric Voit (evoit) wrote:
> *From:* Dave Thaler, November 15, 2019 2:39 AM
> 
> Netconf is not the only protocol supported by routers.
> 
> Routers also support IPv4, IPv6, link-layer protocols such as Ethernet, 
> routing protocols, often things like DHCP relay, RADIUS, etc.
> 
> <Eric> Below I would have said " Router/YANG" below rather than 
> "Router/NETCONF".
> 
> I have not yet seen a compelling reason to use a pull-based mechanism 
> instead of a push-based mechanism via another protocol the routers 
> already support.
> 
> <Eric> Router vendors want push-based mechanisms too.  And NETCONF does 
> push.  See RFC-8640 and RFC-5277.
> 
> The only reason I’ve heard so far is “because they support netconf and 
> we’re used to it”, to which the counter argument is as above:
> 
> they support other things too and we’re used to them too.
> 
> <Eric> There is piles of documentation in the IETF and beyond detailing 
> the reasoning and extent of consolidation on YANG for network 
> management.    IETF, IEEE, MEF, OpenConfig, and others forums are 
> defining these.  I wouldn't expect another anytime soon.
> 
> NETCONF can support YANG. Other transports can support YANG.   The 
> current draft under an adoption call does not specifically reference 
> NETCONF.
> 
> In order to know who to pull data from, the Verifier has to have some 
> indication from the Attester that triggers the attestation request
> 
> indicated as Step 1 in draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation.  
> So in reality, there has to be a step before step 1,
> 
> whereby the Attester does something that makes the Attester discoverable 
> by the Verifier.   That step could have included the EAT or the TPM data
> 
> expressed in the YANG draft, or whatever else, and then you’ve avoided 
> the need for netconf, and reduced the number of round trips,
> 
> improving latency and bandwidth.
> 
> <Eric> It is already possible to subscribe to existing proprietary YANG 
> attestation models.  This requires zero extra round-trips.   The push 
> can be leave the Attester in <1 sec.
> 
> If there is a compelling reason to support a pull-based mechanism, and 
> we get consensus that we need it, then great.
> 
> But so far I haven’t heard one.
> 
> <Eric> A YANG model supports both push and pull.  Application vendors 
> want a standard attestation model.  That is why you have many network 
> vendors authoring this YANG draft under the adoption call.
> 
> Honestly I don't understand the push-back.   This should be a no-brainer.
> 
> /Eric
> 
> Dave
> 
> *From:* Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com 
> <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 13, 2019 10:07 AM
> *To:* Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com <mailto:dthaler@microsoft.com>>
> *Cc:* Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com <mailto:ned.smith@intel.com>>; 
> Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com 
> <mailto:ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>>; Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) 
> <ncamwing@cisco.com <mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com>>; rats@ietf.org 
> <mailto:rats@ietf.org>; Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de 
> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>
> *Subject:* Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang 
> module draft
> 
> My version of technology bases for attestation is something like this:
> 
>     *Router/Netconf World*
> 
>     Millions of devices. Currently TPM oriented. Long possible
>     transition to EAT. YANG used to create very specific fine-grained
>     interactions. No privacy issues.
> 
>     *Web Browser World*
> 
>     Billions of devices. Current attestation use is primarily WebAuthN /
>     FIDO. JWT is used heavily for authentication so would be more EAT
>     oriented, but TPM attestation is supported in FIDO. Larger use of
>     attestation may evolve. Fine-grained interactions are with WebAPIs
>     (Javascript) (sort of parallel to YANG for routers). Big privacy issues.
> 
>     *Mobile App World*
> 
>     Billions of devices. Main attestation use is Android’s Keystore.
>     This is EAT-like, but based on X.509. Fine grained interactions are
>     Android APIs. I may be out of date, but so far IoS doesn’t do
>     attestation. Privacy issues vary by app.
> 
>     *IoT World*
> 
>     Billions of devices most likely going to trillions. Attestation is a
>     critical enabling feature in this world. There are lots of protocols
>     and formats involved. TPMs are too expensive for many of these, but
>     are probably in use somewhere. No privacy issues for a large portion
>     of this world.
> 
> The router world is the smallest, but it is “well represented” because 
> this is the IETF.
> 
> I see EAT as applicable to all these worlds, where the YANG module is 
> just for the smallish router world. So I mostly agree with Dave about 
> proportions, however this is the IETF where YANG modules are created. 
>   (Maybe I should go join the W3C world and work on attestations APIs 
> for browsers after RATS is done).
> 
> LL
> 
>     On Nov 11, 2019, at 5:43 PM, Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com
>     <mailto:dthaler@microsoft.com>> wrote:
> 
>     As far as I can understand from
>     draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module-01 and
> 
>     draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-01, they break down
>     the use case
> 
>     space as follows:
> 
>                              Requirements?
> 
>               +--------------+---------------+---------++---------------
> 
>               |  RoT         | Host Firewall | Privacy ||   Solution
> 
>               |  Type        |   Enabled     | Needed  ||    Pieces
> 
>               +--------------+---------------+---------++---------------
> 
>            1  |  SGX         | No            | No      ||
> 
>            2  |  SGX         | No            | Yes     ||
> 
>            3  |  SGX         | Yes           | No      ||
> 
>            4  |  SGX         | Yes           | Yes     ||
> 
>            5  |  TrustZone   | No            | No      ||
> 
>            6  |  TrustZone   | No            | Yes     ||
> 
>            7  |  TrustZone   | Yes           | No      ||
> 
>            8  |  TrustZone   | Yes           | Yes     ||
> 
>            9  |  TPM         | No            | No      ||
>     draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module-01
> 
>           10  |  TPM         | No            | Yes     ||
> 
>           11  |  TPM         | Yes           | No      ||
> 
>           12  |  TPM         | Yes           | Yes     ||
> 
>           13  |SecureElement | No            | No      ||
> 
>           14  |SecureElement | No            | Yes     ||
> 
>           15  |SecureElement | Yes           | No      ||
> 
>           16  |SecureElement | Yes           | Yes     ||
> 
>           17  | Firmware     | No            | No      ||
> 
>           18  | Firmware     | No            | Yes     ||
> 
>           19  | Firmware     | Yes           | No      ||
> 
>           20  | Firmware     | Yes           | Yes     ||
> 
>           ... |   ...        |               |         ||
> 
>     And draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-01 further scopes
>     itself down
> 
>     by only being applicable to cases with "embedded" apps only = Yes,
>     and where
> 
>     the security policy is only an Exact match against reference values
>     = Yes.
> 
>     I believe that the yang draft doesn't have those two restrictions,
>     from my reading.
> 
>     However, the point is that both drafts are VERY narrow, and in the
>     table shown above,
> 
>     only address 1 out of 20 possibilies in that space.
> 
>     In contrast, the TEEP WG decided that it was not interested in
>     narrow scopings
> 
>     (specifically something Global Platform specific), but instead
>     wanted one general solution.
> 
>     If the RATS WG spends effort on something that only addresses a
>     single row out of 20+ rows,
> 
>     then do we expect 19+ other solutions to also be done in the WG?  Or
>     could we work on things
> 
>     that are broader and happen to also work for row 9?
> 
>     I've seen others commenting on the fact that the YANG module only
>     supports TPMs and not
> 
>     other things (EATs etc), which would just add support for a couple
>     more rows, but still not
> 
>     be general.
> 
>     Personally, I would much rather see the WG spend effort on things
>     that really are generic,
> 
>     i.e., work with or without host firewalls, work with multiple
>     RoT/TEE types, etc., rather
> 
>     than seeing an explosion of point solutions.
> 
>     Dave
> 
>     *From:* RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>>
>     *On Behalf Of *Smith, Ned
>     *Sent:* Monday, November 11, 2019 10:12 AM
>     *To:* Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com
>     <mailto:ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>>; Laurence Lundblade
>     <lgl@island-resort.com <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>>; Nancy
>     Cam-Winget (ncamwing) <ncamwing@cisco.com <mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com>>
>     *Cc:* rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org>; Henk Birkholz
>     <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de
>     <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>
>     *Subject:* Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for
>     Yang module draft
> 
>     Right. This implies the RATS “token” should support existing
>     “binary” formats as an encapsulation (signed by a second TA where
>     the TPM is a first TA) or as a conveyance (unsigned?) token.
>     Possibly, the only added value of the latter is a tag that
>     identifies it as a TPM binary format?
> 
>     On 11/10/19, 23:21 PM, "RATS on behalf of Oliver, Ian (Nokia -
>     FI/Espoo)" <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org> on
>     behalf of ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com
>     <mailto:ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>> wrote:
> 
>     > Remote TPM attestations are useful and necessary the short run, but are of very limited capability. I believe that > EAT will replace TPM attestations in the long run (maybe decades) because they are far more expressive. I know > others believe that too. 
> 
>     I would disagree with the statement of "short run" ... TPM is
>     practically the only existing standardised (hardware, software,
>     firmware, measurement - x86 only etc) hardware root of trust in
>     common use, ie: practically all x86 machines,  The attestation
>     mechanisms provided are going to be around for a very long time.
> 
>      From telco experience, 30 years ago we said SS7 would only be
>     around in the short term.
> 
>     > Thus, I am opposed to adoption with the current TPM-only draft. I’d be OK with the current draft and a promise > to add EAT to it.
> 
>     Agree
> 
>     Ian
> 
>     -- 
> 
>     Dr. Ian Oliver
> 
>     Cybersecurity Research
> 
>     Distinguished Member of Technical Staff
> 
>     Nokia Bell Labs
> 
>     +358 50 483 6237
> 
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>     *From:* Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com
>     <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>>
>     *Sent:* 11 November 2019 00:44
>     *To:* Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) <ncamwing@cisco.com
>     <mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com>>
>     *Cc:* Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de
>     <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>; rats@ietf..org
>     <mailto:rats@ietf..org> <rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org>>
>     *Subject:* Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for
>     Yang module draft
> 
>         On Nov 10, 2019, at 2:20 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)
>         <ncamwing@cisco.com <mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com>> wrote:
> 
>         So, Laurence, are you still OK with the adoption of the current
>         draft with a rename for now?
>         Thanks, Nancy
> 
>     I think the value add to the larger RATS effort of adding EAT
>     support to this YANG protocol is really high. It a core thing to do
>     that helps bring together the two attestation worlds and make the
>     TPM and EAT work here less like ships in the night.
> 
>     Remote TPM attestations are useful and necessary the short run, but
>     are of very limited capability. I believe that EAT will replace TPM
>     attestations in the long run (maybe decades) because they are far
>     more expressive. I know others believe that too.
> 
>     If we don’t include EAT in the YANG mode it is sort of like defining
>     HTTP to only convey HTML to the exclusion of PDF. We’re defining an
>     attestation protocol that can only move one kind of attestation even
>     though we have consensus on what the other one looks like.
> 
>     It seems relatively simple to add EAT support (or promise to add EAT
>     support). Pretty sure I heard Henk agree to add it.
> 
>     Thus, I am opposed to adoption with the current TPM-only draft. I’d
>     be OK with the current draft and a promise to add EAT to it.
> 
>     LL
> 


From nobody Fri Nov 15 10:40:54 2019
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Subject: Re: [Rats] FIDO TPM attestation
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Hi Andreas,

Here=E2=80=99s the frame up as I see it for EAT  and FIDO from most =
secure to least. I believe EAT implementations can eventually be as =
secure as a TPM and we want to design EAT so such high-security =
implementations will eventually be in the market.

Hardware-Only (No SW!)
EAT with a small number of claims (HW Version, HW OEM, boot / debug =
state, simple TPM-like measurement) is possible in pure HW.=20
Pretty sure many TPMs are implemented in pure HW.
Certifiable to very high levels.
FIDO is too complex for pure HW.

Secure Element and similar
EAT with a lot of claims
Simpler FIDO implementations without biometrics.
Some may consider this less secure than pure HW because complexity is =
higher, but I don=E2=80=99t think there is an absolute rule here.
Pretty sure this can be CC certified at the same level as HW only.

Separate CPU
You can add a CPU like an Arm Cortex M3 to your circuit board or to your =
SoC. Some of off-the-shelf CPUs even have some HW defenses (the SC =
version of the M3). It can run some super simple SW, simpler than a =
secure element.
EAT with a lot of claims
Most all FIDO
I=E2=80=99d peg security and certifiability as somewhere between the =
secure element and the TEE depending on the HW design. Both can be =
pretty high.


TEE, SGX, VBS
EAT with a lot of claims
Most all FIDO
Usually cannot implement advanced HW chip defenses because these are a =
mode of super-fast large CPUs and these defense would slow them down to =
much and consume too much power.
Not certifiable at the same levels as the above, but still certifiable =
in pretty thorough ways like the CC-based GP TEE PP (link below)
SW complexity is a lot higher so either certification cost is higher or =
certification is less thorough

Don=E2=80=99t disagree with anything in your latest comment. :-)

LL



> On Nov 14, 2019, at 8:17 AM, Fuchs, Andreas =
<andreas.fuchs@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
>=20
> We were talking about FIDO as one of many applications running in a =
TEE.
> They rely on correctness of other TEE-apps and/or the TEE kernel
> (or should I rather say TEE operating system). Thus a turing complete =
solution
> (maybe even with loadable apps) and OS cannot be as secure as a =
special-purpose
> functional logic security provider.
>=20
> Also, by design an on-chip TEE offering cannot be as secure as a =
physically
> separated chip that incorporates smartcard technologies. You also =
highlight
> this by providing yubikey as example which is both; a separate SC-like =
chip
> and fixed functional logic (similar to TPMs).
>=20
> To conclude: fixed functional logic and separate chips have higher =
assurance
> levels than turing-complete (loadable) areas of the main cpu.
>=20
> And to your original point: TPMs are the preferred solution for =
attestation
> in contrast to to a TEE-based approach, just as YubiKeys et al are =
preferred
> for FIDO in contrast to a TEE-based approach.
>=20
> From: Laurence Lundblade [lgl@island-resort.com =
<mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>]
> Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2019 16:51
> To: Fuchs, Andreas
> Cc: rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Rats] FIDO TPM attestation
>=20
>=20
>> On Nov 14, 2019, at 1:46 AM, Fuchs, Andreas =
<andreas.fuchs@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:andreas.fuchs@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
>>=20
>> The FIDO code running inside a TEE is not standardized (to the level =
of TPM) and most certainly not CC-evaluated.
>=20
>=20
> That=E2=80=99s not true.
>=20
> The=C2=A0FIDO L3 and L3+ Certification program =
<https://fidoalliance.org/certification/authenticator-certification-levels=
/authenticator-level-3/> is CC (Common Criteria) based (AVA_VAN.3 and =
AVA_VAN.4). =20
>=20
> Many FIDO authenticators run on secure elements which provides roughly =
equivalent security to a TPM, however since the full authenticator =
protocol runs on the turing-complete secure element the full FIDO =
protocol is secured, not just the key storage. Here=E2=80=99s one =
<https://www.yubico.com/products/yubikey-hardware/yubikey%20neo/>.
>=20
> Global Platform offers a CC-based certification program for TEE=E2=80=99=
s =
<https://www.commoncriteriaportal.org/files/ppfiles/anssi-profil_PP-2014_0=
1.pdf>. FIDO is working on a certification program that will make use of =
that.
>=20
> BSI has published a CC-based protection profile for FIDO =
<https://www.commoncriteriaportal.org/files/ppfiles/pp0096a_pdf.pdf>.
>=20
> Android Keystore=E2=80=99s now supports StrongBox =
<https://proandroiddev.com/android-keystore-what-is-the-difference-between=
-strongbox-and-hardware-backed-keys-4c276ea78fd0>, which puts the keys =
in a secure element.
>=20
> Qualcomm=E2=80=99s Snapdragon mobile phone chip has a secure-element =
like subsystem =
<https://www.qualcomm.com/news/releases/2019/06/25/qualcomm-snapdragon-855=
-becomes-first-mobile-soc-receive-smart-card> (not the TEE) that is =
CC-certified.
>=20
> TEE and TEE-like offerings are stronger than they used to be, =
particular by supporting memory encryption.
>=20
> Turing complete security products come in a range of security levels =
all the way up the security level offered by a TPM. EAT implementations =
can be just as secure and certified as TPM attestation.
>=20
> LL


--Apple-Mail=_8E29825C-74EC-4FBF-8239-800D8FF80298
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Hi Andreas,</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Here=E2=80=99s the frame up as I see it for EAT &nbsp;and =
FIDO from most secure to least. I believe EAT implementations can =
eventually be as secure as a TPM and we want to design EAT so such =
high-security implementations will eventually be in the =
market.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Hardware-Only (No SW!)</b></div><div class=3D""><ul =
class=3D""><li class=3D"">EAT with a small number of claims (HW Version, =
HW OEM, boot / debug state, simple TPM-like measurement) is possible in =
pure HW.&nbsp;</li><li class=3D"">Pretty sure many TPMs are implemented =
in pure HW.</li><li class=3D"">Certifiable to very high levels.</li><li =
class=3D"">FIDO is too complex for pure HW.</li></ul></div><div =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><br class=3D""></b></div><div class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Secure Element and similar</b></div><div class=3D""><ul =
class=3D""><li class=3D"">EAT with a lot of claims</li><li =
class=3D"">Simpler FIDO implementations without biometrics.</li><li =
class=3D"">Some may consider this less secure than pure HW because =
complexity is higher, but I don=E2=80=99t think there is an absolute =
rule here.</li><li class=3D"">Pretty sure this can be CC certified at =
the same level as HW only.</li></ul><div class=3D""><b class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></b></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Separate CPU</b></div><div class=3D"">You can add a CPU like =
an Arm Cortex M3 to your circuit board or to your SoC. Some of =
off-the-shelf CPUs even have some HW defenses (the SC version of the =
M3). It can run some super simple SW, simpler than a secure =
element.</div><div class=3D""><ul class=3D"MailOutline"><li class=3D"">EAT=
 with a lot of claims</li><li class=3D"">Most all FIDO</li><li =
class=3D"">I=E2=80=99d peg security and certifiability as somewhere =
between the secure element and the TEE depending on the HW design. Both =
can be pretty high.</li></ul><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">TEE, SGX, VBS</b></div></div><div class=3D""><ul =
class=3D"MailOutline"><li class=3D"">EAT with a lot of claims</li><li =
class=3D"">Most all FIDO</li><li class=3D"">Usually cannot implement =
advanced HW chip defenses because these are a mode of super-fast large =
CPUs and these defense would slow them down to much and consume too much =
power.</li><li class=3D"">Not certifiable at the same levels as the =
above, but still certifiable in pretty thorough ways like the CC-based =
GP TEE PP (link below)</li><li class=3D"">SW complexity is a lot higher =
so either certification cost is higher or certification is less =
thorough</li></ul><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><div =
class=3D"">Don=E2=80=99t disagree with anything in your latest comment. =
:-)</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">LL</div><div=
 class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><br class=3D""><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Nov =
14, 2019, at 8:17 AM, Fuchs, Andreas &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:andreas.fuchs@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">andreas.fuchs@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; direction: ltr; =
font-family: Tahoma; font-size: 10pt;" class=3D""><div class=3D"">We =
were talking about FIDO as one of many applications running in a =
TEE.</div><div class=3D"">They rely on correctness of other TEE-apps =
and/or the TEE kernel</div><div class=3D"">(or should I rather say TEE =
operating system). Thus a turing complete solution</div><div =
class=3D"">(maybe even with loadable apps) and OS cannot be as secure as =
a special-purpose</div><div class=3D"">functional logic security =
provider.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Also, =
by design an on-chip TEE offering cannot be as secure as a =
physically</div><div class=3D"">separated chip that incorporates =
smartcard technologies. You also highlight</div><div class=3D"">this by =
providing yubikey as example which is both; a separate SC-like =
chip</div><div class=3D"">and fixed functional logic (similar to =
TPMs).</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">To =
conclude: fixed functional logic and separate chips have higher =
assurance<br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">levels than =
turing-complete (loadable) areas of the main cpu.</div><div class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">And to your original point: TPMs are =
the preferred solution for attestation</div><div class=3D"">in contrast =
to to a TEE-based approach, just as YubiKeys et al are =
preferred</div><div class=3D"">for FIDO in contrast to a TEE-based =
approach.<br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
style=3D"font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;; font-size: 16px;" =
class=3D""><hr tabindex=3D"-1" class=3D""><div id=3D"divRpF468627" =
style=3D"direction: ltr;" class=3D""><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Tahoma" =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">From:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Laurence Lundblade [<a =
href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" =
class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</a>]<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Thursday, November 14, 2019 =
16:51<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Fuchs, Andreas<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" class=3D"">rats@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Rats] FIDO TPM =
attestation<br class=3D""></font><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Nov =
14, 2019, at 1:46 AM, Fuchs, Andreas &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:andreas.fuchs@sit.fraunhofer.de" class=3D"" =
target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noopener =
noreferrer">andreas.fuchs@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><span class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline =
!important;">The FIDO code&nbsp;</span><span class=3D"" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline =
!important;">running inside a TEE is not standardized (to the level of =
TPM) and most certainly not =
CC-evaluated.</span></div></blockquote></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">That=E2=80=99s not true.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><blockquote class=3D"" style=3D"margin: =
0px 0px 0px 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;"><div class=3D"">The<a =
href=3D"https://fidoalliance.org/certification/authenticator-certification=
-levels/authenticator-level-3/" class=3D"" target=3D"_blank" =
rel=3D"noopener noreferrer"><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>FIDO L3 and L3+ =
Certification program</a>&nbsp;is CC (Common Criteria) based (AVA_VAN.3 =
and AVA_VAN.4). &nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">Many FIDO =
authenticators run on secure elements which provides roughly equivalent =
security to a TPM, however since the full authenticator protocol runs on =
the turing-complete secure element the full FIDO protocol is secured, =
not just the key storage.&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://www.yubico.com/products/yubikey-hardware/yubikey%20neo/" =
class=3D"" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noopener noreferrer">Here=E2=80=99s =
one</a>.</div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">Global Platform =
offers a&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://www.commoncriteriaportal.org/files/ppfiles/anssi-profil_PP=
-2014_01.pdf" class=3D"" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noopener =
noreferrer">CC-based certification program for TEE=E2=80=99s</a>. FIDO =
is working on a certification program that will make use of =
that.</div></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">BSI =
has published a CC-based protection&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://www.commoncriteriaportal.org/files/ppfiles/pp0096a_pdf.pdf=
" class=3D"" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noopener noreferrer">profile for =
FIDO</a>.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Android Keystore=E2=80=99s now supports&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://proandroiddev.com/android-keystore-what-is-the-difference-=
between-strongbox-and-hardware-backed-keys-4c276ea78fd0" class=3D"" =
target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noopener noreferrer">StrongBox</a>, which puts =
the keys in a secure element.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Qualcomm=E2=80=99s Snapdragon mobile =
phone chip has a&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://www.qualcomm.com/news/releases/2019/06/25/qualcomm-snapdra=
gon-855-becomes-first-mobile-soc-receive-smart-card" class=3D"" =
target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noopener noreferrer">secure-element like =
subsystem</a>&nbsp;(not the TEE) that is CC-certified.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">TEE and TEE-like =
offerings are stronger than they used to be, particular by supporting =
memory encryption.</div></blockquote><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Turing complete security products come =
in a range of security levels all the way up the security level offered =
by a TPM. EAT implementations can be just as secure and certified as TPM =
attestation.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">LL</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_8E29825C-74EC-4FBF-8239-800D8FF80298--


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From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
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Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 11:13:46 -0800
Cc: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, =?utf-8?B?IlNjaMO2bnfDpGxkZXIsIErDvHJnZW4i?= <J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>,  "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" <ncamwing@cisco.com>, "Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>, Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
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References: <8B173958-FC2A-4D1D-A81C-F324AB632CD7@cisco.com> <147F9159-6055-4E55-ABDC-43DFE3498BF1@island-resort.com> <ce5f8206-74dc-36bb-0093-a93045d5c67f@sit.fraunhofer.de> <0A7E3A4F-8534-4E98-BCB7-1454E07699F4@island-resort.com> <C3AE2645-49C8-4313-BCED-02FEB576B614@cisco.com> <1C8A1884-A37D-45E3-8C11-2FC5A083B245@island-resort.com> <HE1PR0702MB375366C5F7FE5C497C35D73B8F740@HE1PR0702MB3753.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <7106C9D3-8ED1-419E-81F8-4CDA799BEDAE@intel.com> <MWHPR21MB07844F61BEFAE03F9E7DD290A3770@MWHPR21MB0784.namprd21.prod.outlook.com> <6E7D64B4-2049-4D0A-ADC5-CA3F0647779B@island-resort.com> <20191114140600.itrr5mjiysgutsj5@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <59707a99-8cec-2005-b1ee-72f171234cbe@sit.fraunhofer.de> <DM6PR11MB4154A67956517DF2D9D305ADA1710@DM6PR11MB4154.namprd11.prod.outlook.com> <5C6D6C7C-05DC-4103-9A80-A029F0151996@intel.com> <DM6PR11MB41548D92CF35A134264E56E1A1710@DM6PR11MB4154.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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Here=E2=80=99s a try at an analogy of EAT Tokens with X.509 =
Certificates.

For both the core of the definition is of the signed serialized data =
format. A set of fields / claims is defined in the core standard. That =
core standard is solely focused on the definition of those fields / =
claims and shouldn't get intertwined with other protocol definitions.

However, other protocols may decide to have fields that are the same as, =
maybe even defined in terms of the fields  / claims in the token / =
certificate. Those definitions are probably normative references to the =
fields / claims in the core token / certificate standard. TLS makes =
normative references to PKIX this way in section 4.2.5. I think this is =
perfectly reasonable things to do.

So, I have no trouble with some EAT claims being used in YANG designs, =
but I=E2=80=99d like it to be by reference to EAT. I=E2=80=99d also like =
EAT to only use CDDL for the data model and nothing else.

I think trying for a single information model that is common to EAT and =
YANG designs is too big, too much intertwining and is scary. It will =
lead to schedule interlocks between the documents.

Another reason is that I view router / YANG use of attestation as only =
one (well-represented) use case for EAT. YANG-based use cases =
shouldn=E2=80=99t be central to EAT's design. If we were to intertwine =
with YANG, maybe we should intertwine with JavaScript and a bunch of IoT =
protocols too.

LL




> On Nov 14, 2019, at 12:42 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) <evoit@cisco.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> My belief is that a Relying Party will rarely want the full universe =
of signed claims coming from some Attester's chip.   We need ways to =
pre-filter the results.  How would we do this without a model?
>=20
> To fill this need, I always hoped that EAT claims could become leafs =
of some future YANG data model.  This would allow GET and SUBSCRIBE =
requests to be made to an Attester.  What would be returned to the =
Relying Party would be the signed results of interest from some chip =
within the Attester. =20
>=20
> I have no position on whether the WG wants to integrate GET and =
SUBSCRIBE requests so that they can provision claims are ultimately =
placed within the EAT token.
>=20
> Eric
>=20
>> @Eric Voit (evoit) Is this suggesting that RATS architecture should =
define a
>> token-like DM structure that is a *request* "token" having only tags
>> identifying interesting claims while a *response* "token" would have =
claims
>> with data values populated?
>>=20
>> =EF=BB=BFOn 11/14/19, 8:02 AM, "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com> =
wrote:
>>=20
>>    Hi J=C3=BCrgen,
>>    Hi Henk,
>>=20
>>    What routers need is exactly what you said.
>>     - currently: the retrieval of TPM originated/signed quotes.
>>     - in the future: the retrieval EAT Tokens
>>=20
>>    Knowing when to retrieve these items is a function of the value of =
specific
>> claims inside those structures.  For example, I might want to use =
RFC-8641 to
>> make a YANG Subscription to a router so that I will be pushed the =
latest TPM
>> quote when a specific PCR changes.  For this to work in the router =
world, we
>> must have the structures of Quotes/Tokens exposed by a YANG model.
>>=20
>>    Eric
>>=20
>>> Hi J=C3=BCrgen,
>>>=20
>>> I think this is very useful input.
>>>=20
>>> On the list, Laurence and I already started to discuss Claims for =
"YANG
>>> modeled data" and Claims for "TPM modled data" (referred to as tpm
>> tokens
>>> recently).
>>>=20
>>> The remaining questions are about: What do you think is the
>> upcoming/TBD
>>> impact on the current YANG module for challenge-response RATS?
>>>=20
>>> Leveraging YANG modeled data comes up again and again. Maybe there
>> is
>>> good approach here.
>>>=20
>>> The TPM Interface based YANG Module does not simply convey native
>> TPM
>>> structure, but decomposes them down the values that are useful and
>>> common on the management plane because the building blocks
>> themselves
>>> have well defined semantics (always ensuring canonical =
re-composition).
>>>=20
>>> Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>>>=20
>>> Henk
>>>=20
>>> On 14.11.19 15:06, Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder, J=C3=BCrgen wrote:
>>>> On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 10:07:02AM -0800, Laurence Lundblade
>> wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I see EAT as applicable to all these worlds, where the YANG module =
is
>> just
>>> for the smallish router world. So I mostly agree with Dave about
>> proportions,
>>> however this is the IETF where YANG modules are created.  (Maybe I
>> should
>>> go join the W3C world and work on attestations APIs for browsers =
after
>> RATS
>>> is done).
>>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> If EAT is the common format for "token", then it does not make =
sense
>>>> to me to define a YANG version of it. It may make sense to carry =
EAT
>>>> token over protocols such as NETCONF or RESTCONF and to have a
>> YANG
>>>> module defining this may make sense for the networking device =
world.
>>>> This is then a definition of an interaction protocol, but not the
>>>> token format itself.
>>>>=20
>>>> If EAT is the common format for "token", then it may make sense to =
be
>>>> able to include "claims" that are YANG defined data. That may be an
>>>> extension of the core EAT definition (but EAT would have to allow =
for
>>>> such an extension to work). There is a lot of formally defined data =
in
>>>> YANG modules that would be convenient to reuse as claims in a
>>>> networking world.
>>>>=20
>>>> /js
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> RATS mailing list
>>> RATS@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats


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To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
CC: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, =?UTF-8?B?U2Now7Zud8OkbGRlciwgSsO8cmdlbg==?= <J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" <ncamwing@cisco.com>, "Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>, Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
References: <8B173958-FC2A-4D1D-A81C-F324AB632CD7@cisco.com> <ce5f8206-74dc-36bb-0093-a93045d5c67f@sit.fraunhofer.de> <0A7E3A4F-8534-4E98-BCB7-1454E07699F4@island-resort.com> <C3AE2645-49C8-4313-BCED-02FEB576B614@cisco.com> <1C8A1884-A37D-45E3-8C11-2FC5A083B245@island-resort.com> <HE1PR0702MB375366C5F7FE5C497C35D73B8F740@HE1PR0702MB3753.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <7106C9D3-8ED1-419E-81F8-4CDA799BEDAE@intel.com> <MWHPR21MB07844F61BEFAE03F9E7DD290A3770@MWHPR21MB0784.namprd21.prod.outlook.com> <6E7D64B4-2049-4D0A-ADC5-CA3F0647779B@island-resort.com> <20191114140600.itrr5mjiysgutsj5@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <59707a99-8cec-2005-b1ee-72f171234cbe@sit.fraunhofer.de> <DM6PR11MB4154A67956517DF2D9D305ADA1710@DM6PR11MB4154.namprd11.prod.outlook.com> <5C6D6C7C-05DC-4103-9A80-A029F0151996@intel.com> <DM6PR11MB41548D92CF35A134264E56E1A1710@DM6PR11MB4154.namprd11.prod.outlook.com> <B6DF89B0-6BB9-430D-8741-A3010045414D@island-resort.com>
From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 20:30:25 +0100
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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Hi Laurence,

I would like to highlight this quote:

> I’d also like EAT to only use CDDL for the data model and nothing else

This is a significant change of turn. I would like to get more 
background about why you are not intending to use CDDL as an information 
model anymore and also why you think using CDDL as a data model 
specification is helpful to define Claims.

I can see the point that CDDL was not done when CWT was done. And I 
think that would be a good argument.

Alas, I am more at a loss now how we intend to deal with the IM aspect 
in RATS now. The thing we tried to propose initially was an English 
description. That did not find consensus and CDDL seemed to be the new 
approach. What are we doing now, if you are proposing to down-level CDDL 
to data model again, creates a vacuum. Are we going back to English text 
es we initially proposed? In retrospect, why are you dropping the 
approach your were advocating for quite some time?

My concern is that this accumulation of changes in a lot of places has 
the exact opposite effect of expedition - which was the primary 
incentive for the initial proposal, I think?

Having said that, cddl is literally a data definition language. I just 
think it is hard to argue why we are changing horses do close to the 
finish line. I do not object on a technical level, I just want to 
highlight that is a significant change of direction.

Viele Grüße,

Henk


On 15.11.19 20:13, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
> Here’s a try at an analogy of EAT Tokens with X.509 Certificates.
> 
> For both the core of the definition is of the signed serialized data format. A set of fields / claims is defined in the core standard. That core standard is solely focused on the definition of those fields / claims and shouldn't get intertwined with other protocol definitions.
> 
> However, other protocols may decide to have fields that are the same as, maybe even defined in terms of the fields  / claims in the token / certificate. Those definitions are probably normative references to the fields / claims in the core token / certificate standard. TLS makes normative references to PKIX this way in section 4.2.5. I think this is perfectly reasonable things to do.
> 
> So, I have no trouble with some EAT claims being used in YANG designs, but I’d like it to be by reference to EAT. I’d also like EAT to only use CDDL for the data model and nothing else.
> 
> I think trying for a single information model that is common to EAT and YANG designs is too big, too much intertwining and is scary. It will lead to schedule interlocks between the documents.
> 
> Another reason is that I view router / YANG use of attestation as only one (well-represented) use case for EAT. YANG-based use cases shouldn’t be central to EAT's design. If we were to intertwine with YANG, maybe we should intertwine with JavaScript and a bunch of IoT protocols too.
> 
> LL
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Nov 14, 2019, at 12:42 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) <evoit@cisco.com> wrote:
>>
>> My belief is that a Relying Party will rarely want the full universe of signed claims coming from some Attester's chip.   We need ways to pre-filter the results.  How would we do this without a model?
>>
>> To fill this need, I always hoped that EAT claims could become leafs of some future YANG data model.  This would allow GET and SUBSCRIBE requests to be made to an Attester.  What would be returned to the Relying Party would be the signed results of interest from some chip within the Attester.
>>
>> I have no position on whether the WG wants to integrate GET and SUBSCRIBE requests so that they can provision claims are ultimately placed within the EAT token.
>>
>> Eric
>>
>>> @Eric Voit (evoit) Is this suggesting that RATS architecture should define a
>>> token-like DM structure that is a *request* "token" having only tags
>>> identifying interesting claims while a *response* "token" would have claims
>>> with data values populated?
>>>
>>> ﻿On 11/14/19, 8:02 AM, "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>     Hi Jürgen,
>>>     Hi Henk,
>>>
>>>     What routers need is exactly what you said.
>>>      - currently: the retrieval of TPM originated/signed quotes.
>>>      - in the future: the retrieval EAT Tokens
>>>
>>>     Knowing when to retrieve these items is a function of the value of specific
>>> claims inside those structures.  For example, I might want to use RFC-8641 to
>>> make a YANG Subscription to a router so that I will be pushed the latest TPM
>>> quote when a specific PCR changes.  For this to work in the router world, we
>>> must have the structures of Quotes/Tokens exposed by a YANG model.
>>>
>>>     Eric
>>>
>>>> Hi Jürgen,
>>>>
>>>> I think this is very useful input.
>>>>
>>>> On the list, Laurence and I already started to discuss Claims for "YANG
>>>> modeled data" and Claims for "TPM modled data" (referred to as tpm
>>> tokens
>>>> recently).
>>>>
>>>> The remaining questions are about: What do you think is the
>>> upcoming/TBD
>>>> impact on the current YANG module for challenge-response RATS?
>>>>
>>>> Leveraging YANG modeled data comes up again and again. Maybe there
>>> is
>>>> good approach here.
>>>>
>>>> The TPM Interface based YANG Module does not simply convey native
>>> TPM
>>>> structure, but decomposes them down the values that are useful and
>>>> common on the management plane because the building blocks
>>> themselves
>>>> have well defined semantics (always ensuring canonical re-composition).
>>>>
>>>> Viele Grüße,
>>>>
>>>> Henk
>>>>
>>>> On 14.11.19 15:06, Schönwälder, Jürgen wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 10:07:02AM -0800, Laurence Lundblade
>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I see EAT as applicable to all these worlds, where the YANG module is
>>> just
>>>> for the smallish router world. So I mostly agree with Dave about
>>> proportions,
>>>> however this is the IETF where YANG modules are created.  (Maybe I
>>> should
>>>> go join the W3C world and work on attestations APIs for browsers after
>>> RATS
>>>> is done).
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If EAT is the common format for "token", then it does not make sense
>>>>> to me to define a YANG version of it. It may make sense to carry EAT
>>>>> token over protocols such as NETCONF or RESTCONF and to have a
>>> YANG
>>>>> module defining this may make sense for the networking device world.
>>>>> This is then a definition of an interaction protocol, but not the
>>>>> token format itself.
>>>>>
>>>>> If EAT is the common format for "token", then it may make sense to be
>>>>> able to include "claims" that are YANG defined data. That may be an
>>>>> extension of the core EAT definition (but EAT would have to allow for
>>>>> such an extension to work). There is a lot of formally defined data in
>>>>> YANG modules that would be convenient to reuse as claims in a
>>>>> networking world.
>>>>>
>>>>> /js
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> RATS mailing list
>>>> RATS@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> RATS mailing list
>> RATS@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
> 


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Greetings!

If you are planning to present in a RATS session this coming week, please
submit your slides to the chairs by Sunday afternoon, Singapore time.

-- 

Best regards,
Kathleen

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Greetings!<div><br></div><div>If you are planning to prese=
nt in a RATS session this coming week, please submit your slides to the cha=
irs by Sunday afternoon, Singapore time.<br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>--=
 <br><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_sig=
nature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div>Best regards,</div><div>Kathleen</div></d=
iv></div></div></div>

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Cc: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>,  =?utf-8?B?IlNjaMO2bnfDpGxkZXIsIErDvHJnZW4i?= <J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>,  "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" <ncamwing@cisco.com>, "Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>, Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
References: <8B173958-FC2A-4D1D-A81C-F324AB632CD7@cisco.com> <ce5f8206-74dc-36bb-0093-a93045d5c67f@sit.fraunhofer.de> <0A7E3A4F-8534-4E98-BCB7-1454E07699F4@island-resort.com> <C3AE2645-49C8-4313-BCED-02FEB576B614@cisco.com> <1C8A1884-A37D-45E3-8C11-2FC5A083B245@island-resort.com> <HE1PR0702MB375366C5F7FE5C497C35D73B8F740@HE1PR0702MB3753.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> <7106C9D3-8ED1-419E-81F8-4CDA799BEDAE@intel.com> <MWHPR21MB07844F61BEFAE03F9E7DD290A3770@MWHPR21MB0784.namprd21.prod.outlook.com> <6E7D64B4-2049-4D0A-ADC5-CA3F0647779B@island-resort.com> <20191114140600.itrr5mjiysgutsj5@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <59707a99-8cec-2005-b1ee-72f171234cbe@sit.fraunhofer.de> <DM6PR11MB4154A67956517DF2D9D305ADA1710@DM6PR11MB4154.namprd11.prod.outlook.com> <5C6D6C7C-05DC-4103-9A80-A029F0151996@intel.com> <DM6PR11MB41548D92CF35A134264E56E1A1710@DM6PR11MB4154.namprd11.prod.outlook.com> <B6DF89B0-6BB9-430D-8741-A3010045414D@island-resort.com> <29ab5ec2-789a-fff8-14ac-07ebbf9e918a@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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I want to do it like the current EAT document (current draft=E2=80=99s =
labeling of info and data model aside)
Normative definitional text per claim
CDDL per claim
Largely mechanical rules to go from CDDL to CBOR & JSON.

The subtleties of info vs data model escape me (and don=E2=80=99t seem =
that critical to me for the work at hand). The main thing I care about =
is that we one main definition of a claim that is not replicated and it =
can mechanically to go CBOR, JSON and maybe other serializations.

You can tell me how to label 1, 2, and 3 however you want and I=E2=80=99ll=
 probably just use that in the EAT doc.


Also, by this I meant

>> I=E2=80=99d also like EAT to only use CDDL for the data model and =
nothing else

no YANG for the primal definition of claims and no YANG in the EAT =
document (see my other recent email with the X.509 analogy for =
suggestion on how to integrate with YANG expression of claims).

LL




> On Nov 15, 2019, at 11:30 AM, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Laurence,
>=20
> I would like to highlight this quote:
>=20
>> I=E2=80=99d also like EAT to only use CDDL for the data model and =
nothing else
>=20
> This is a significant change of turn. I would like to get more =
background about why you are not intending to use CDDL as an information =
model anymore and also why you think using CDDL as a data model =
specification is helpful to define Claims.
>=20
> I can see the point that CDDL was not done when CWT was done. And I =
think that would be a good argument.
>=20
> Alas, I am more at a loss now how we intend to deal with the IM aspect =
in RATS now. The thing we tried to propose initially was an English =
description. That did not find consensus and CDDL seemed to be the new =
approach. What are we doing now, if you are proposing to down-level CDDL =
to data model again, creates a vacuum. Are we going back to English text =
es we initially proposed? In retrospect, why are you dropping the =
approach your were advocating for quite some time?
>=20
> My concern is that this accumulation of changes in a lot of places has =
the exact opposite effect of expedition - which was the primary =
incentive for the initial proposal, I think?
>=20
> Having said that, cddl is literally a data definition language. I just =
think it is hard to argue why we are changing horses do close to the =
finish line. I do not object on a technical level, I just want to =
highlight that is a significant change of direction.
>=20
> Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>=20
> Henk
>=20
>=20
> On 15.11.19 20:13, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>> Here=E2=80=99s a try at an analogy of EAT Tokens with X.509 =
Certificates.
>> For both the core of the definition is of the signed serialized data =
format. A set of fields / claims is defined in the core standard. That =
core standard is solely focused on the definition of those fields / =
claims and shouldn't get intertwined with other protocol definitions.
>> However, other protocols may decide to have fields that are the same =
as, maybe even defined in terms of the fields  / claims in the token / =
certificate. Those definitions are probably normative references to the =
fields / claims in the core token / certificate standard. TLS makes =
normative references to PKIX this way in section 4.2.5. I think this is =
perfectly reasonable things to do.
>> So, I have no trouble with some EAT claims being used in YANG =
designs, but I=E2=80=99d like it to be by reference to EAT. I=E2=80=99d =
also like EAT to only use CDDL for the data model and nothing else.
>> I think trying for a single information model that is common to EAT =
and YANG designs is too big, too much intertwining and is scary. It will =
lead to schedule interlocks between the documents.
>> Another reason is that I view router / YANG use of attestation as =
only one (well-represented) use case for EAT. YANG-based use cases =
shouldn=E2=80=99t be central to EAT's design. If we were to intertwine =
with YANG, maybe we should intertwine with JavaScript and a bunch of IoT =
protocols too.
>> LL
>>> On Nov 14, 2019, at 12:42 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) <evoit@cisco.com> =
wrote:
>>>=20
>>> My belief is that a Relying Party will rarely want the full universe =
of signed claims coming from some Attester's chip.   We need ways to =
pre-filter the results.  How would we do this without a model?
>>>=20
>>> To fill this need, I always hoped that EAT claims could become leafs =
of some future YANG data model.  This would allow GET and SUBSCRIBE =
requests to be made to an Attester.  What would be returned to the =
Relying Party would be the signed results of interest from some chip =
within the Attester.
>>>=20
>>> I have no position on whether the WG wants to integrate GET and =
SUBSCRIBE requests so that they can provision claims are ultimately =
placed within the EAT token.
>>>=20
>>> Eric
>>>=20
>>>> @Eric Voit (evoit) Is this suggesting that RATS architecture should =
define a
>>>> token-like DM structure that is a *request* "token" having only =
tags
>>>> identifying interesting claims while a *response* "token" would =
have claims
>>>> with data values populated?
>>>>=20
>>>> =EF=BB=BFOn 11/14/19, 8:02 AM, "Eric Voit (evoit)" =
<evoit@cisco.com> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>    Hi J=C3=BCrgen,
>>>>    Hi Henk,
>>>>=20
>>>>    What routers need is exactly what you said.
>>>>     - currently: the retrieval of TPM originated/signed quotes.
>>>>     - in the future: the retrieval EAT Tokens
>>>>=20
>>>>    Knowing when to retrieve these items is a function of the value =
of specific
>>>> claims inside those structures.  For example, I might want to use =
RFC-8641 to
>>>> make a YANG Subscription to a router so that I will be pushed the =
latest TPM
>>>> quote when a specific PCR changes.  For this to work in the router =
world, we
>>>> must have the structures of Quotes/Tokens exposed by a YANG model.
>>>>=20
>>>>    Eric
>>>>=20
>>>>> Hi J=C3=BCrgen,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I think this is very useful input.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On the list, Laurence and I already started to discuss Claims for =
"YANG
>>>>> modeled data" and Claims for "TPM modled data" (referred to as tpm
>>>> tokens
>>>>> recently).
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The remaining questions are about: What do you think is the
>>>> upcoming/TBD
>>>>> impact on the current YANG module for challenge-response RATS?
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Leveraging YANG modeled data comes up again and again. Maybe there
>>>> is
>>>>> good approach here.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The TPM Interface based YANG Module does not simply convey native
>>>> TPM
>>>>> structure, but decomposes them down the values that are useful and
>>>>> common on the management plane because the building blocks
>>>> themselves
>>>>> have well defined semantics (always ensuring canonical =
re-composition).
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Henk
>>>>>=20
>>>>> On 14.11.19 15:06, Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder, J=C3=BCrgen wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 10:07:02AM -0800, Laurence Lundblade
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> I see EAT as applicable to all these worlds, where the YANG =
module is
>>>> just
>>>>> for the smallish router world. So I mostly agree with Dave about
>>>> proportions,
>>>>> however this is the IETF where YANG modules are created.  (Maybe I
>>>> should
>>>>> go join the W3C world and work on attestations APIs for browsers =
after
>>>> RATS
>>>>> is done).
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> If EAT is the common format for "token", then it does not make =
sense
>>>>>> to me to define a YANG version of it. It may make sense to carry =
EAT
>>>>>> token over protocols such as NETCONF or RESTCONF and to have a
>>>> YANG
>>>>>> module defining this may make sense for the networking device =
world.
>>>>>> This is then a definition of an interaction protocol, but not the
>>>>>> token format itself.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> If EAT is the common format for "token", then it may make sense =
to be
>>>>>> able to include "claims" that are YANG defined data. That may be =
an
>>>>>> extension of the core EAT definition (but EAT would have to allow =
for
>>>>>> such an extension to work). There is a lot of formally defined =
data in
>>>>>> YANG modules that would be convenient to reuse as claims in a
>>>>>> networking world.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> /js
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> RATS mailing list
>>>>> RATS@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> RATS mailing list
>>> RATS@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>=20


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">I =
want to do it like the current EAT document (current draft=E2=80=99s =
labeling of info and data model aside)<div class=3D""><ol =
class=3D"MailOutline"><li class=3D"">Normative definitional text per =
claim</li><li class=3D"">CDDL per claim</li><li class=3D"">Largely =
mechanical rules to go from CDDL to CBOR &amp; JSON.</li></ol><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">The =
subtleties of info vs data model escape me (and don=E2=80=99t seem that =
critical to me for the work at hand). The main thing I care about is =
that we one main definition of a claim that is not replicated and it can =
mechanically to go CBOR, JSON and maybe other serializations.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D"">You can tell me =
how to label 1, 2, and 3 however you want and I=E2=80=99ll probably just =
use that in the EAT doc.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Also, by this I =
meant</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">I=E2=80=99d also like EAT to only use CDDL for the data model =
and nothing else</blockquote></blockquote><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">no YANG for the primal definition of claims and no YANG in =
the EAT document (see my other recent email with the X.509 analogy for =
suggestion on how to integrate with YANG expression of =
claims).</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Nov 15, 2019, at 11:30 AM, Henk Birkholz =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">Hi =
Laurence,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I would like to highlight this =
quote:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">I=E2=80=99d also like EAT to only use CDDL for the data model =
and nothing else<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">This is a =
significant change of turn. I would like to get more background about =
why you are not intending to use CDDL as an information model anymore =
and also why you think using CDDL as a data model specification is =
helpful to define Claims.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I can see the =
point that CDDL was not done when CWT was done. And I think that would =
be a good argument.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Alas, I am more at a =
loss now how we intend to deal with the IM aspect in RATS now. The thing =
we tried to propose initially was an English description. That did not =
find consensus and CDDL seemed to be the new approach. What are we doing =
now, if you are proposing to down-level CDDL to data model again, =
creates a vacuum. Are we going back to English text es we initially =
proposed? In retrospect, why are you dropping the approach your were =
advocating for quite some time?<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">My concern =
is that this accumulation of changes in a lot of places has the exact =
opposite effect of expedition - which was the primary incentive for the =
initial proposal, I think?<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Having said =
that, cddl is literally a data definition language. I just think it is =
hard to argue why we are changing horses do close to the finish line. I =
do not object on a technical level, I just want to highlight that is a =
significant change of direction.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Viele =
Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Henk<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">On 15.11.19 20:13, Laurence Lundblade =
wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Here=E2=80=99s =
a try at an analogy of EAT Tokens with X.509 Certificates.<br =
class=3D"">For both the core of the definition is of the signed =
serialized data format. A set of fields / claims is defined in the core =
standard. That core standard is solely focused on the definition of =
those fields / claims and shouldn't get intertwined with other protocol =
definitions.<br class=3D"">However, other protocols may decide to have =
fields that are the same as, maybe even defined in terms of the fields =
&nbsp;/ claims in the token / certificate. Those definitions are =
probably normative references to the fields / claims in the core token / =
certificate standard. TLS makes normative references to PKIX this way in =
section 4.2.5. I think this is perfectly reasonable things to do.<br =
class=3D"">So, I have no trouble with some EAT claims being used in YANG =
designs, but I=E2=80=99d like it to be by reference to EAT. I=E2=80=99d =
also like EAT to only use CDDL for the data model and nothing else.<br =
class=3D"">I think trying for a single information model that is common =
to EAT and YANG designs is too big, too much intertwining and is scary. =
It will lead to schedule interlocks between the documents.<br =
class=3D"">Another reason is that I view router / YANG use of =
attestation as only one (well-represented) use case for EAT. YANG-based =
use cases shouldn=E2=80=99t be central to EAT's design. If we were to =
intertwine with YANG, maybe we should intertwine with JavaScript and a =
bunch of IoT protocols too.<br class=3D"">LL<br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"">On Nov 14, 2019, at 12:42 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:evoit@cisco.com" class=3D"">evoit@cisco.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">My belief is that a Relying Party =
will rarely want the full universe of signed claims coming from some =
Attester's chip. &nbsp;&nbsp;We need ways to pre-filter the results. =
&nbsp;How would we do this without a model?<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">To fill this need, I always hoped that EAT claims could =
become leafs of some future YANG data model. &nbsp;This would allow GET =
and SUBSCRIBE requests to be made to an Attester. &nbsp;What would be =
returned to the Relying Party would be the signed results of interest =
from some chip within the Attester.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I have =
no position on whether the WG wants to integrate GET and SUBSCRIBE =
requests so that they can provision claims are ultimately placed within =
the EAT token.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Eric<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">@Eric Voit (evoit) Is =
this suggesting that RATS architecture should define a<br =
class=3D"">token-like DM structure that is a *request* "token" having =
only tags<br class=3D"">identifying interesting claims while a =
*response* "token" would have claims<br class=3D"">with data values =
populated?<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">=EF=BB=BFOn 11/14/19, 8:02 AM, =
"Eric Voit (evoit)" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:evoit@cisco.com" =
class=3D"">evoit@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Hi J=C3=BCrgen,<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Hi =
Henk,<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;What routers need =
is exactly what you said.<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;- =
currently: the retrieval of TPM originated/signed quotes.<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;- in the future: the retrieval EAT Tokens<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Knowing when to retrieve =
these items is a function of the value of specific<br class=3D"">claims =
inside those structures. &nbsp;For example, I might want to use RFC-8641 =
to<br class=3D"">make a YANG Subscription to a router so that I will be =
pushed the latest TPM<br class=3D"">quote when a specific PCR changes. =
&nbsp;For this to work in the router world, we<br class=3D"">must have =
the structures of Quotes/Tokens exposed by a YANG model.<br class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Eric<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Hi J=C3=BCrgen,<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">I think this is very useful input.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">On the list, Laurence and I already started to =
discuss Claims for "YANG<br class=3D"">modeled data" and Claims for "TPM =
modled data" (referred to as tpm<br class=3D""></blockquote>tokens<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">recently).<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">The remaining questions are about: What do you =
think is the<br class=3D""></blockquote>upcoming/TBD<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">impact on the current =
YANG module for challenge-response RATS?<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Leveraging YANG modeled data comes up again and again. Maybe =
there<br class=3D""></blockquote>is<br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"">good approach here.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">The TPM Interface based YANG Module does not simply convey =
native<br class=3D""></blockquote>TPM<br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"">structure, but decomposes them down the values =
that are useful and<br class=3D"">common on the management plane because =
the building blocks<br class=3D""></blockquote>themselves<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">have well defined =
semantics (always ensuring canonical re-composition).<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Henk<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">On 14.11.19 15:06, Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder, =
J=C3=BCrgen wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">On =
Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 10:07:02AM -0800, Laurence Lundblade<br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote>wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br class=3D"">I see EAT as applicable to all =
these worlds, where the YANG module is<br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>just<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">for the smallish router =
world. So I mostly agree with Dave about<br =
class=3D""></blockquote>proportions,<br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"">however this is the IETF where YANG modules are =
created. &nbsp;(Maybe I<br class=3D""></blockquote>should<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">go join the W3C world =
and work on attestations APIs for browsers after<br =
class=3D""></blockquote>RATS<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">is done).<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">If EAT is the common format for =
"token", then it does not make sense<br class=3D"">to me to define a =
YANG version of it. It may make sense to carry EAT<br class=3D"">token =
over protocols such as NETCONF or RESTCONF and to have a<br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote>YANG<br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">module =
defining this may make sense for the networking device world.<br =
class=3D"">This is then a definition of an interaction protocol, but not =
the<br class=3D"">token format itself.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">If =
EAT is the common format for "token", then it may make sense to be<br =
class=3D"">able to include "claims" that are YANG defined data. That may =
be an<br class=3D"">extension of the core EAT definition (but EAT would =
have to allow for<br class=3D"">such an extension to work). There is a =
lot of formally defined data in<br class=3D"">YANG modules that would be =
convenient to reuse as claims in a<br class=3D"">networking world.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">/js<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">RATS mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" class=3D"">RATS@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">RATS mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" class=3D"">RATS@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats<br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote><br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></div></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_A7363E08-7525-4573-BC49-ECCB7DAF3CD6--


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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
CC: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, =?utf-8?B?IlNjaMO2bnfDpGxkZXIsIErDvHJnZW4i?= <J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" <ncamwing@cisco.com>, "Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>, Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
Thread-Index: AQHVmvyW8/lytau3hU+AhCwtIdg/0aeKzjHAgABIPICAAABN4IABhOcAgAAEp4CAABVMAIAAA4fw
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2019 22:23:21 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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From: Laurence Lundblade, November 15, 2019 3:47 PM
To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>



=20

I want to do it like the current EAT document (current draft=E2=80=99s =
labeling of info and data model aside)

1.	Normative definitional text per claim
2.	CDDL per claim
3.	Largely mechanical rules to go from CDDL to CBOR & JSON.

=20

The subtleties of info vs data model escape me (and don=E2=80=99t seem =
that critical to me for the work at hand). The main thing I care about =
is that we one main definition of a claim that is not replicated and it =
can mechanically to go CBOR, JSON and maybe other serializations.

=20

You can tell me how to label 1, 2, and 3 however you want and =
I=E2=80=99ll probably just use that in the EAT doc.

=20

=20

Also, by this I meant

=20

I=E2=80=99d also like EAT to only use CDDL for the data model and =
nothing else

=20

no YANG for the primal definition of claims and no YANG in the EAT =
document (see my other recent email with the X.509 analogy for =
suggestion on how to integrate with YANG expression of claims).

=20

This is fine with me.  Let's expose EAT claims within YANG objects when =
somebody needs this.

=20

Eric

=20

=20

LL

=20

=20

=20





On Nov 15, 2019, at 11:30 AM, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> > wrote:

=20

Hi Laurence,

I would like to highlight this quote:




I=E2=80=99d also like EAT to only use CDDL for the data model and =
nothing else


This is a significant change of turn. I would like to get more =
background about why you are not intending to use CDDL as an information =
model anymore and also why you think using CDDL as a data model =
specification is helpful to define Claims.

I can see the point that CDDL was not done when CWT was done. And I =
think that would be a good argument.

Alas, I am more at a loss now how we intend to deal with the IM aspect =
in RATS now. The thing we tried to propose initially was an English =
description. That did not find consensus and CDDL seemed to be the new =
approach. What are we doing now, if you are proposing to down-level CDDL =
to data model again, creates a vacuum. Are we going back to English text =
es we initially proposed? In retrospect, why are you dropping the =
approach your were advocating for quite some time?

My concern is that this accumulation of changes in a lot of places has =
the exact opposite effect of expedition - which was the primary =
incentive for the initial proposal, I think?

Having said that, cddl is literally a data definition language. I just =
think it is hard to argue why we are changing horses do close to the =
finish line. I do not object on a technical level, I just want to =
highlight that is a significant change of direction.

Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,

Henk


On 15.11.19 20:13, Laurence Lundblade wrote:



Here=E2=80=99s a try at an analogy of EAT Tokens with X.509 =
Certificates.
For both the core of the definition is of the signed serialized data =
format. A set of fields / claims is defined in the core standard. That =
core standard is solely focused on the definition of those fields / =
claims and shouldn't get intertwined with other protocol definitions.
However, other protocols may decide to have fields that are the same as, =
maybe even defined in terms of the fields  / claims in the token / =
certificate. Those definitions are probably normative references to the =
fields / claims in the core token / certificate standard. TLS makes =
normative references to PKIX this way in section 4.2.5. I think this is =
perfectly reasonable things to do.
So, I have no trouble with some EAT claims being used in YANG designs, =
but I=E2=80=99d like it to be by reference to EAT. I=E2=80=99d also like =
EAT to only use CDDL for the data model and nothing else.
I think trying for a single information model that is common to EAT and =
YANG designs is too big, too much intertwining and is scary. It will =
lead to schedule interlocks between the documents.
Another reason is that I view router / YANG use of attestation as only =
one (well-represented) use case for EAT. YANG-based use cases =
shouldn=E2=80=99t be central to EAT's design. If we were to intertwine =
with YANG, maybe we should intertwine with JavaScript and a bunch of IoT =
protocols too.
LL



On Nov 14, 2019, at 12:42 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) <evoit@cisco.com =
<mailto:evoit@cisco.com> > wrote:

My belief is that a Relying Party will rarely want the full universe of =
signed claims coming from some Attester's chip.   We need ways to =
pre-filter the results.  How would we do this without a model?

To fill this need, I always hoped that EAT claims could become leafs of =
some future YANG data model.  This would allow GET and SUBSCRIBE =
requests to be made to an Attester.  What would be returned to the =
Relying Party would be the signed results of interest from some chip =
within the Attester.

I have no position on whether the WG wants to integrate GET and =
SUBSCRIBE requests so that they can provision claims are ultimately =
placed within the EAT token.

Eric




@Eric Voit (evoit) Is this suggesting that RATS architecture should =
define a
token-like DM structure that is a *request* "token" having only tags
identifying interesting claims while a *response* "token" would have =
claims
with data values populated?

=EF=BB=BFOn 11/14/19, 8:02 AM, "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com =
<mailto:evoit@cisco.com> > wrote:

   Hi J=C3=BCrgen,
   Hi Henk,

   What routers need is exactly what you said.
    - currently: the retrieval of TPM originated/signed quotes.
    - in the future: the retrieval EAT Tokens

   Knowing when to retrieve these items is a function of the value of =
specific
claims inside those structures.  For example, I might want to use =
RFC-8641 to
make a YANG Subscription to a router so that I will be pushed the latest =
TPM
quote when a specific PCR changes.  For this to work in the router =
world, we
must have the structures of Quotes/Tokens exposed by a YANG model.

   Eric




Hi J=C3=BCrgen,

I think this is very useful input.

On the list, Laurence and I already started to discuss Claims for "YANG
modeled data" and Claims for "TPM modled data" (referred to as tpm

tokens



recently).

The remaining questions are about: What do you think is the

upcoming/TBD



impact on the current YANG module for challenge-response RATS?

Leveraging YANG modeled data comes up again and again. Maybe there

is



good approach here.

The TPM Interface based YANG Module does not simply convey native

TPM



structure, but decomposes them down the values that are useful and
common on the management plane because the building blocks

themselves



have well defined semantics (always ensuring canonical re-composition).

Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,

Henk

On 14.11.19 15:06, Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder, J=C3=BCrgen wrote:



On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 10:07:02AM -0800, Laurence Lundblade

wrote:




I see EAT as applicable to all these worlds, where the YANG module is

just



for the smallish router world. So I mostly agree with Dave about

proportions,



however this is the IETF where YANG modules are created.  (Maybe I

should



go join the W3C world and work on attestations APIs for browsers after

RATS



is done).



=20


If EAT is the common format for "token", then it does not make sense
to me to define a YANG version of it. It may make sense to carry EAT
token over protocols such as NETCONF or RESTCONF and to have a

YANG



module defining this may make sense for the networking device world.
This is then a definition of an interaction protocol, but not the
token format itself.

If EAT is the common format for "token", then it may make sense to be
able to include "claims" that are YANG defined data. That may be an
extension of the core EAT definition (but EAT would have to allow for
such an extension to work). There is a lot of formally defined data in
YANG modules that would be convenient to reuse as claims in a
networking world.

/js


_______________________________________________
RATS mailing list
RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>=20
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats

=20


_______________________________________________
RATS mailing list
RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>=20
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats

=20

=20


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vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> Laurence Lundblade, November 15, 2019 =
3:47 PM<br><b>To:</b> Henk Birkholz =
&lt;henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de&gt;<br><br><o:p></o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>I want to do =
it like the current EAT document (current draft=E2=80=99s labeling of =
info and data model aside)<o:p></o:p></p><div><ol start=3D1 type=3D1><li =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 =
level1 lfo1'>Normative definitional text per claim<o:p></o:p></li><li =
class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 =
level1 lfo1'>CDDL per claim<o:p></o:p></li><li class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 =
level1 lfo1'>Largely mechanical rules to go from CDDL to CBOR &amp; =
JSON.<o:p></o:p></li></ol><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>The subtleties of info vs data model escape me (and =
don=E2=80=99t seem that critical to me for the work at hand). The main =
thing I care about is that we one main definition of a claim that is not =
replicated and it can mechanically to go CBOR, JSON and maybe other =
serializations.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>You can tell me how to label 1, 2, and 3 however you =
want and I=E2=80=99ll probably just use that in the EAT =
doc.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Also, by this I meant<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I=E2=80=99d also like EAT to only use CDDL for the =
data model and nothing else<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></blockquote><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>no YANG for the primal definition of claims and no =
YANG in the EAT document (see my other recent email with the X.509 =
analogy for suggestion on how to integrate with YANG expression of =
claims).<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span style=3D'color:#4472C4'>This is fine with =
me.=C2=A0 Let's expose EAT claims within YANG objects when somebody =
needs this.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'color:#4472C4'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoPlainText><span =
style=3D'color:#4472C4'>Eric<o:p></o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>LL<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>On Nov 15, 2019, at 11:30 AM, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunho=
fer.de</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Hi =
Laurence,<br><br>I would like to highlight this =
quote:<br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>I=E2=80=99d also like EAT to only use CDDL for the =
data model and nothing else<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br>This is a significant change of turn. I would like =
to get more background about why you are not intending to use CDDL as an =
information model anymore and also why you think using CDDL as a data =
model specification is helpful to define Claims.<br><br>I can see the =
point that CDDL was not done when CWT was done. And I think that would =
be a good argument.<br><br>Alas, I am more at a loss now how we intend =
to deal with the IM aspect in RATS now. The thing we tried to propose =
initially was an English description. That did not find consensus and =
CDDL seemed to be the new approach. What are we doing now, if you are =
proposing to down-level CDDL to data model again, creates a vacuum. Are =
we going back to English text es we initially proposed? In retrospect, =
why are you dropping the approach your were advocating for quite some =
time?<br><br>My concern is that this accumulation of changes in a lot of =
places has the exact opposite effect of expedition - which was the =
primary incentive for the initial proposal, I think?<br><br>Having said =
that, cddl is literally a data definition language. I just think it is =
hard to argue why we are changing horses do close to the finish line. I =
do not object on a technical level, I just want to highlight that is a =
significant change of direction.<br><br>Viele =
Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,<br><br>Henk<br><br><br>On 15.11.19 20:13, Laurence =
Lundblade wrote:<br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Here=E2=80=99s a try at an analogy of EAT Tokens with =
X.509 Certificates.<br>For both the core of the definition is of the =
signed serialized data format. A set of fields / claims is defined in =
the core standard. That core standard is solely focused on the =
definition of those fields / claims and shouldn't get intertwined with =
other protocol definitions.<br>However, other protocols may decide to =
have fields that are the same as, maybe even defined in terms of the =
fields &nbsp;/ claims in the token / certificate. Those definitions are =
probably normative references to the fields / claims in the core token / =
certificate standard. TLS makes normative references to PKIX this way in =
section 4.2.5. I think this is perfectly reasonable things to do.<br>So, =
I have no trouble with some EAT claims being used in YANG designs, but =
I=E2=80=99d like it to be by reference to EAT. I=E2=80=99d also like EAT =
to only use CDDL for the data model and nothing else.<br>I think trying =
for a single information model that is common to EAT and YANG designs is =
too big, too much intertwining and is scary. It will lead to schedule =
interlocks between the documents.<br>Another reason is that I view =
router / YANG use of attestation as only one (well-represented) use case =
for EAT. YANG-based use cases shouldn=E2=80=99t be central to EAT's =
design. If we were to intertwine with YANG, maybe we should intertwine =
with JavaScript and a bunch of IoT protocols =
too.<br>LL<br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal>On =
Nov 14, 2019, at 12:42 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:evoit@cisco.com">evoit@cisco.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br>My =
belief is that a Relying Party will rarely want the full universe of =
signed claims coming from some Attester's chip. &nbsp;&nbsp;We need ways =
to pre-filter the results. &nbsp;How would we do this without a =
model?<br><br>To fill this need, I always hoped that EAT claims could =
become leafs of some future YANG data model. &nbsp;This would allow GET =
and SUBSCRIBE requests to be made to an Attester. &nbsp;What would be =
returned to the Relying Party would be the signed results of interest =
from some chip within the Attester.<br><br>I have no position on whether =
the WG wants to integrate GET and SUBSCRIBE requests so that they can =
provision claims are ultimately placed within the EAT =
token.<br><br>Eric<br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>@Eric Voit (evoit) Is this suggesting that RATS =
architecture should define a<br>token-like DM structure that is a =
*request* &quot;token&quot; having only tags<br>identifying interesting =
claims while a *response* &quot;token&quot; would have claims<br>with =
data values populated?<br><br>=EF=BB=BFOn 11/14/19, 8:02 AM, &quot;Eric =
Voit (evoit)&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:evoit@cisco.com">evoit@cisco.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Hi J=C3=BCrgen,<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Hi =
Henk,<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;What routers need is exactly what you =
said.<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;- currently: the retrieval of TPM =
originated/signed quotes.<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;- in the future: =
the retrieval EAT Tokens<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Knowing when to =
retrieve these items is a function of the value of specific<br>claims =
inside those structures. &nbsp;For example, I might want to use RFC-8641 =
to<br>make a YANG Subscription to a router so that I will be pushed the =
latest TPM<br>quote when a specific PCR changes. &nbsp;For this to work =
in the router world, we<br>must have the structures of Quotes/Tokens =
exposed by a YANG =
model.<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Eric<br><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquot=
e style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal>Hi =
J=C3=BCrgen,<br><br>I think this is very useful input.<br><br>On the =
list, Laurence and I already started to discuss Claims for =
&quot;YANG<br>modeled data&quot; and Claims for &quot;TPM modled =
data&quot; (referred to as tpm<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>tokens<br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>recently).<br><br>The remaining questions are about: =
What do you think is the<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>upcoming/TBD<br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>impact on the current YANG module for =
challenge-response RATS?<br><br>Leveraging YANG modeled data comes up =
again and again. Maybe there<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>is<br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal>good =
approach here.<br><br>The TPM Interface based YANG Module does not =
simply convey native<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>TPM<br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>structure, but decomposes them down the values that =
are useful and<br>common on the management plane because the building =
blocks<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>themselves<br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal>have =
well defined semantics (always ensuring canonical =
re-composition).<br><br>Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,<br><br>Henk<br><br>On =
14.11.19 15:06, Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder, J=C3=BCrgen =
wrote:<br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal>On =
Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 10:07:02AM -0800, Laurence =
Lundblade<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></blockquote><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>wrote:<br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br>I see EAT as applicable to all these worlds, where =
the YANG module =
is<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>just<br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal>for =
the smallish router world. So I mostly agree with Dave =
about<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>proportions,<br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>however this is the IETF where YANG modules are =
created. &nbsp;(Maybe I<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>should<br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal>go =
join the W3C world and work on attestations APIs for browsers =
after<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>RATS<br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal>is =
done).<br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></blockquote><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br>If EAT is the common format for &quot;token&quot;, =
then it does not make sense<br>to me to define a YANG version of it. It =
may make sense to carry EAT<br>token over protocols such as NETCONF or =
RESTCONF and to have a<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></blockquote><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>YANG<br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><blockquote =
style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>module defining this may make sense for =
the networking device world.<br>This is then a definition of an =
interaction protocol, but not the<br>token format itself.<br><br>If EAT =
is the common format for &quot;token&quot;, then it may make sense to =
be<br>able to include &quot;claims&quot; that are YANG defined data. =
That may be an<br>extension of the core EAT definition (but EAT would =
have to allow for<br>such an extension to work). There is a lot of =
formally defined data in<br>YANG modules that would be convenient to =
reuse as claims in a<br>networking =
world.<br><br>/js<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br>_______________________________________________<br>=
RATS mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org">RATS@ietf.org</a><br><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/rats</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></blockquote><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><br>_______________________________________________<br>=
RATS mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org">RATS@ietf.org</a><br><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/rats</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></blockquote><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div></blockquote></div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div></div></div></body></h=
tml>
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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, "Fuchs, Andreas" <andreas.fuchs@sit.fraunhofer.de>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] FIDO TPM attestation
Thread-Index: AQHVmdgWfl9UYBF/L0GX4QO5u8BdHaeK8xUAgABl/wCAAAd9AIABukAA///jdAA=
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2019 00:58:38 +0000
Message-ID: <DEEF16A1-0240-4713-9C39-7C590744493F@intel.com>
References: <62DD1AD3-6F1A-4B2B-8236-10ECCE254443@island-resort.com> <9F48E1A823B03B4790B7E6E69430724D0163BD29CD@EXCH2010B.sit.fraunhofer.de> <CEB0F75D-E703-41B9-8EEE-C95E848FBC8C@island-resort.com> <9F48E1A823B03B4790B7E6E69430724D0163BD5B5C@EXCH2010B.sit.fraunhofer.de> <39F4565A-F807-4DB2-B024-6BD2BC906DC5@island-resort.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] FIDO TPM attestation
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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>, Dave Thaler <dthaler=40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
CC: "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" <ncamwing@cisco.com>, "Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Push vs. pull  - was Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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Subject: [Rats] Push vs. pull - was Re: Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, =?utf-8?B?U2Now7Zud8OkbGRlciwgSsO8cmdlbg==?= <J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
CC: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: terminology: claims and tokens was Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2019 02:13:02 +0000
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Subject: [Rats] terminology: claims and tokens was Re: Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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To: =?utf-8?B?U2Now7Zud8OkbGRlciwgSsO8cmdlbg==?= <J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
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Thread-Topic: interaction model and token opacity was Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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Subject: [Rats] interaction model and token opacity was Re: Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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From: "Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)" <frank.xialiang@huawei.com>
To: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Another RATS message flow model for consideration:
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Hi RATS architecture design team and all,
In addition to the current passport model and background check model. I thi=
nk there is a third message flow model possibly for us to consider:
Attester < -------------------- > verifier < ------------------------------=
-- > relying party
            Evidence               attestation results

The key point of the above model is that verifier has independent connectio=
n with attester and relying party respectively, and there are two independe=
nt message exchanges between the attester and verifier, between the verifie=
r and the relying party. Of course, if needed, there can be some trigger co=
ndition and interaction between these two connections.
The relative advantage of the above model is simple, and each role only see=
 what he needs to see, like: evidence is only seen by relying party, attest=
ation results is seen by attester.

I am wondering whether the architecture draft will consider it?

B.R.
Frank

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi RATS architecture design tea=
m and all,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">In addition to the current pass=
port model and background check model. I think there is a third message flo=
w model possibly for us to consider:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Attester &lt; -----------------=
--- &gt; verifier &lt; -------------------------------- &gt; relying party<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Evidence &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;attestation results<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">The key point of the above mode=
l is that verifier has independent connection with attester and relying par=
ty respectively, and there are two independent message exchanges between th=
e attester and verifier, between the
 verifier and the relying party. Of course, if needed, there can be some tr=
igger condition and interaction between these two connections.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">The relative advantage of the a=
bove model is simple, and each role only see what he needs to see, like: ev=
idence is only seen by relying party, attestation results is seen by attest=
er.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I am wondering whether the arch=
itecture draft will consider it?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">B.R.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Frank<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From: "Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)" <frank.xialiang@huawei.com>
To: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Another RATS message flow model for consideration:
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Oops, S=
ome fixes of the below text:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><a name=3D"_MailEndCompose"><span lang=3D"EN-US" sty=
le=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></a></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"left" style=3D"text-align:left"><b><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;=CE=A2=C8=ED=D1=C5=BA=DA&quot;,sa=
ns-serif">=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></span></b><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;=CE=A2=C8=ED=D1=
=C5=BA=DA&quot;,sans-serif"> RATS [mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org]
</span><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;=CE=A2=C8=ED=D1=
=C5=BA=DA&quot;,sans-serif">=B4=FA=B1=ED </span>
</b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;=CE=A2=
=C8=ED=D1=C5=BA=DA&quot;,sans-serif">Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard &amp=
; Patent Dept)<br>
</span><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;=CE=A2=C8=ED=D1=
=C5=BA=DA&quot;,sans-serif">=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4<span lang=3D"EN-US">:<=
/span></span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family=
:&quot;=CE=A2=C8=ED=D1=C5=BA=DA&quot;,sans-serif"> 2019</span><span style=
=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;=CE=A2=C8=ED=D1=C5=BA=DA&quot;,sans-=
serif">=C4=EA<span lang=3D"EN-US">11</span>=D4=C2<span lang=3D"EN-US">16</s=
pan>=C8=D5<span lang=3D"EN-US">
 18:13<br>
</span><b>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></b><span lang=3D"=
EN-US"> rats@ietf.org<br>
</span><b>=D6=F7=CC=E2<span lang=3D"EN-US">:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
> [Rats] Another RATS message flow model for consideration:<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"left" style=3D"text-align:left"><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi RATS architecture design tea=
m and all,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">In addition to the current pass=
port model and background check model. I think there is a third message flo=
w model possibly for us to consider:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Attester &lt; -----------------=
--- &gt; verifier &lt; -------------------------------- &gt; relying party<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <span style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span>Evidence &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span style=3D"color=
:#1F497D">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
</span>attestation results<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">The key point of the above mode=
l is that verifier has independent connection with attester and relying par=
ty respectively, and there are two independent message exchanges between th=
e attester and verifier, between the
 verifier and the relying party. Of course, if needed, there can be some tr=
igger condition and interaction between these two connections.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">The relative advantage of the a=
bove model is simple, and each role only see what he needs to see, like: ev=
idence is
<b><span style=3D"color:#1F497D">not</span> </b>seen by <span style=3D"colo=
r:#1F497D">
the </span>relying party, attestation results is <b><span style=3D"color:#1=
F497D">not
</span></b>seen by <span style=3D"color:#1F497D">the </span>attester.<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I am wondering whether the arch=
itecture draft will consider it?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">B.R.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Frank<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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From nobody Sat Nov 16 02:34:56 2019
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From: "Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)" <frank.xialiang@huawei.com>
To: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: A quick question about different message flow models of RATS architecture:
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Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2019 10:34:45 +0000
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Subject: [Rats] A quick question about different message flow models of RATS architecture:
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Hi,
>From my understanding, background check model is suitable for device onboar=
ding stage for network access control, and passport model is suitable for d=
evice running time permission of specific service request.
If the above understanding makes sense to certain level, is it possible a n=
etwork will use both of them, but for different life circle stage of device=
?

B.R.
Frank

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">From my understanding, backgrou=
nd check model is suitable for device onboarding stage for network access c=
ontrol, and passport model is suitable for device running time permission o=
f specific service request.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">If the above understanding make=
s sense to certain level, is it possible a network will use both of them, b=
ut for different life circle stage of device?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">B.R.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Frank<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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Thread-Topic: A quick question about different message flow models of RATS architecture:
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/McipiBMLfGCvX2Pw9SfjgAnQXA0>
Subject: Re: [Rats] A quick question about different message flow models of RATS architecture:
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Both models are potentially suitable for initial onboarding in different si=
tuations/topologies, and both models are potentially suitable for runtime p=
ermission.

But yes it is possible that different models are used by the same network f=
or different life stages of devices, or for different devices for the same =
stage.
Whether that's desirable or not is a different question (to which I don't k=
now the answer), but yes it is possible.

From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Xialiang (Frank, Network St=
andard & Patent Dept)
Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2019 6:35 PM
To: rats@ietf.org
Subject: [Rats] A quick question about different message flow models of RAT=
S architecture:

Hi,
>From my understanding, background check model is suitable for device onboar=
ding stage for network access control, and passport model is suitable for d=
evice running time permission of specific service request.
If the above understanding makes sense to certain level, is it possible a n=
etwork will use both of them, but for different life circle stage of device=
?

B.R.
Frank

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Both =
models are potentially suitable for initial onboarding in different situati=
ons/topologies, and both models are potentially suitable for runtime permis=
sion.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">But y=
es it is possible that different models are used by the same network for di=
fferent life stages of devices, or for different devices for the same stage=
.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D">Wheth=
er that&#8217;s desirable or not is a different question (to which I don&#8=
217;t know the answer), but yes it is possible.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;color:#1F497D"><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"left" style=3D"text-align:left"><b><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:11.0pt">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"> =
RATS &lt;rats-bounces@ietf.org&gt;
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard &amp; Patent Dept)<br=
>
<b>Sent:</b> Saturday, November 16, 2019 6:35 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> rats@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Rats] A quick question about different message flow models=
 of RATS architecture:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"left" style=3D"text-align:left"><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">Hi,<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">From my u=
nderstanding, background check model is suitable for device onboarding stag=
e for network access control, and passport model is suitable for device run=
ning time permission of specific service
 request.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">If the ab=
ove understanding makes sense to certain level, is it possible a network wi=
ll use both of them, but for different life circle stage of device?<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p>&nbs=
p;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">B.R.<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">Frank<o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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--000000000000939614059776789e
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"

Reminder: please get your slides in ASAP, ideally within the next 24 hours
so that Ned and I can post them in advance of the sessions.  It is helpful
for anyone for which English is a second language to have them posted with
enough time to review prior to the session.

We've only received one set thus far.

Thank you!
Kathleen

On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 4:11 PM Kathleen Moriarty <
kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

> Greetings!
>
> Please send your slides to myself and Ned.  One of us will post them once
> received.  We will both be remote, so please get them to use early in order
> to avoid any time difference snafus.
>
> Thank you!
>
> --
>
> Best regards,
> Kathleen
>


-- 

Best regards,
Kathleen

--000000000000939614059776789e
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Reminder: please get your slides in ASAP, ideally within t=
he next 24 hours so that Ned and I can post them in advance of the sessions=
.=C2=A0 It is helpful for anyone for which English is a second language to =
have them posted with enough time to review prior to the session.<div><br><=
/div><div>We&#39;ve only received one set thus far.<br><div><br></div><div>=
Thank you!</div><div>Kathleen</div></div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quot=
e"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 4:11 PM Ka=
thleen Moriarty &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com">kat=
hleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(20=
4,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Greetings!<div><br></div><div=
>Please send your slides to myself=C2=A0and=C2=A0Ned.=C2=A0 One of us will =
post them once received.=C2=A0 We will both be remote, so please get them t=
o use early in order to avoid any time difference snafus.</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>Thank you!<br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr">=
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div>Best regards,</div><div>Kathleen</div></div></div=
></div></div>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"=
 class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div>Best regards,</div><di=
v>Kathleen</div></div></div>

--000000000000939614059776789e--


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To: rats@ietf.org
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Subject: [Rats] RATS architecture design team side meeting
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--=-=-=
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<#secure method=3Dpgpmime mode=3Dsign>

The WG chairs have formed a Design Team for a unified architecture document.
The Design Team includes: Dave Thaler, Ned Smith, Henk Birkholz and myself.
We have had some discussions during the Hackathon.
The design team will operate in an open fashion  (all WG participants are
welcome to attend our calls), and we will have two side meetings at IETF106.

We have reserved the Sophia room at 8:30am on Tuesday.
(It's a room way bigger for our needs, so we will pick a corner and sit in a
circle)
   Location:
    =E2=80=8Bhttps://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/106/floor-plan?room=3Dsop=
hia#raffles-city-convention-center
(The TEEP meeting occurs in that room starting at 10am)

There is a webex setup at:

   Meeting number (access code): 202 461 239
   Meeting password: MKhT9paH (65489724 from phones)
   Tuesday, November 19, 2019
   8:30 am  |  (UTC+08:00) Kuala Lumpur, Singapore  |  1 hr 30 mins
   https://cisco.webex.com/cisco/j.php?MTID=3Dm21529340671ba5cb619b176dbbb6=
5dd4
   {we believe that this will be 4:30pm in Pacific, but please check}

We have reserved a second meeting at 8:30am on Wednesday, in the Olivia roo=
m,
same webex, but hope not to need it.

Our goal in this meeting is to arrive at a proposed Tables of Contents for
the Architecture document, which we will bring to the group meeting on Frid=
ay
for discussion.

The design team will be establishing a weekly conference-call meeting time,
likely using whereby.com and hackmd.

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-


--=-=-=
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--=-=-=--


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From: =?utf-8?B?U2Now7Zud8OkbGRlciwgSsO8cmdlbg==?= <J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: Dave Thaler <dthaler=40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
CC: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" <ncamwing@cisco.com>, "Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/NtLVFBLs_-QQTGpcn46iyV5YQOA>
Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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--Apple-Mail=_F42D8772-A82F-4B5A-8B62-40E2CB297916
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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	charset=utf-8

Here=E2=80=99s a graphic trying to depict some different environments =
where attestation may be used.

Ideally, RATS would address everything in the graph providing some =
attestation solution regardless technology.

Today we have drafts to address two of the four areas, the ones without =
a =E2=80=9C?=E2=80=9D.

LL






--Apple-Mail=_F42D8772-A82F-4B5A-8B62-40E2CB297916
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charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Here=E2=80=99s a graphic trying to depict some different =
environments where attestation may be used.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Ideally, RATS would address everything =
in the graph providing some attestation solution regardless =
technology.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Today we have drafts to address two of the four areas, the =
ones without a =E2=80=9C?=E2=80=9D.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br =
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Subject: Re: [Rats] What's to EAT? - terminology clarification
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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain
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If we are going to use JWT/CWT for the security of EATs, then I am skeptical
that CDDL (or any other Data Modeling language) brings anything to the tabl=
e.

What we need are clear semantic descriptions of claims.
Often we will need some anciliary data associated with the claim, and
sometimes that data will be more complex than a single binary blob.  In tho=
se
cases, a bit of CDDL will benefit us.

I don't think that a YANG model will help us at all for this.

=2D-=20
]               Never tell me the odds!                 | ipv6 mesh network=
s [=20
]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works        | network architect=
  [=20
]     mcr@sandelman.ca  http://www.sandelman.ca/        |   ruby on rails  =
  [=20
=09


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From nobody Sun Nov 17 21:31:17 2019
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Subject: Re: [Rats] What's to EAT? - terminology clarification
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Seems to me that the CDDL in the EAT draft is working well to define =
claims that are mechanically serialized into JSON or CBOR and added to =
JWT and CWT.

Isn=E2=80=99t that the end of the story? Is there a problem with the EAT =
doc?

LL


> On Nov 18, 2019, at 12:30 PM, Michael Richardson =
<mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:
>=20
>=20
> If we are going to use JWT/CWT for the security of EATs, then I am =
skeptical
> that CDDL (or any other Data Modeling language) brings anything to the =
table.
>=20
> What we need are clear semantic descriptions of claims.
> Often we will need some anciliary data associated with the claim, and
> sometimes that data will be more complex than a single binary blob.  =
In those
> cases, a bit of CDDL will benefit us.
>=20
> I don't think that a YANG model will help us at all for this.
>=20
> --=20
> ]               Never tell me the odds!                 | ipv6 mesh =
networks [=20
> ]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works        | network =
architect  [=20
> ]     mcr@sandelman.ca  http://www.sandelman.ca/        |   ruby on =
rails    [=20
> =09
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats


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From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] What's to EAT? - terminology clarification
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I think the question was: what value does it add?

At the moment you cannot utilize it, and the structure is a bit... loose.

The latter can be remediated by creating a "how to create CDDL IM 
subsections" in a core document and tighten that a bit - so I see no 
real problem there (if it is about IM, I seem to have misunderstood the 
"CDDL is solely used fo DM now" quote).

The former is the thing Michael is inquiring about, I think. It reads as 
a DM and then it provides the "TLA"s for JWT and lables for cbor as tstr 
longer that 3 characters (which is a bit unusual). Therefore it cannot 
be mechanically serialized at the moment, I think. I am willing to chime 
in here, but I might also circling back to the latter item above. Maybe 
both the former and the latter items are more connected than is obvious 
and that is still unclear?

Viele Grüße,

Henk

On 18.11.19 06:31, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
> Seems to me that the CDDL in the EAT draft is working well to define claims that are mechanically serialized into JSON or CBOR and added to JWT and CWT.
> 
> Isn’t that the end of the story? Is there a problem with the EAT doc?
> 
> LL
> 
> 
>> On Nov 18, 2019, at 12:30 PM, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:
>>
>>
>> If we are going to use JWT/CWT for the security of EATs, then I am skeptical
>> that CDDL (or any other Data Modeling language) brings anything to the table.
>>
>> What we need are clear semantic descriptions of claims.
>> Often we will need some anciliary data associated with the claim, and
>> sometimes that data will be more complex than a single binary blob.  In those
>> cases, a bit of CDDL will benefit us.
>>
>> I don't think that a YANG model will help us at all for this.
>>
>> -- 
>> ]               Never tell me the odds!                 | ipv6 mesh networks [
>> ]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works        | network architect  [
>> ]     mcr@sandelman.ca  http://www.sandelman.ca/        |   ruby on rails    [
>> 	
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> RATS mailing list
>> RATS@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
> 
> _______________________________________________
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From nobody Sun Nov 17 22:45:48 2019
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From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] FIDO TPM attestation
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iotdir hat on.

As maps are not multimaps it can be useful to do kinder these proposals:

1.) If a value is a primitive or simple type, just use that. Qualifiers 
are collapsed in claims. Results in computational explosion and a big 
increase in registered claims.

2.) If a value requires one ore more qualifiers aggregate these in an 
array of well-defined sequence.

3.) If there are "token-wide" applicable qualifiers, make them the root 
structure and bundle claims in corresponding sub-claim-sets.

4.) If there are various sets of of qualifying claims for each core EAT 
claim, enumerate these identifiers and create a composite of 3.) and 
4.): use an array - first item is the value to be qualified, the second 
item is either a) an array of indexes/labels of qualifiers or b) a 
sub-claim-set of qualifying claims for the claim to be qualified.

5.) If all qualifiers always apply to all claims in an EAT, add an 
"header" claim-set with appropriate map members (or a single claim with 
an array value including appropriate label/indexes) to the private part 
of the COSE header.

Sorry, if this sounds a bit complicated. It actually isn't. But 1-5 
highlights that there are a) various ways to approach this and b) that 
adding a selection of various qualifiers to each individual claim has to 
be well structured and requires thinking ahead.

Viele Grüße,

Henk

On 16.11.19 01:58, Smith, Ned wrote:
> This thread illustrates the need for attestation. But also the need for 
> provenance (of the attesting environment).
> 
> There are many ways to implement “security” that have different 
> trustworthiness properties.
> 
> RATS claims definition might consider how best to express such 
> properties. For example, if it is CC certified.
> 
> Attestation functionality (and nothing more?) ideally is held to the 
> highest standards for correct implementation and design so that it can 
> be trusted to report on the target of attestation.
> 
> If we refer to the “Attestation functionality” as the “attesting 
> environment” and the target of attestation as the “attested environment” 
> then RATS drafts can distinguish between which claims are “trusted” vs 
> which claims are “attested” by a given endpoint.
> 
> Something like a vendor issued certificate (with embedded private key) 
> is a way to provide provenance of the attesting environment and an 
> opportunity to include trustworthiness claims (e.g. CC certified). These 
> claims can be asserted by a vendor, by including them in something 
> signed by the vendor (e.g. certificate, manifest). Given RATS WG has 
> decided to wait to define claims for “attesting environments” – since 
> they are claims asserted by vendors / manufacturers. Maybe that work 
> isn’t a high priority.
> 
> In either case, it doesn’t make sense for RATS WG (outside of gaining 
> technical context) to rationalize which technology is more/less secure. 
> This is a policy decision applied by Verifiers and Relying Parties. RATS 
> WG should think about what claims should be expressed and how best to 
> instantiate them IMHO.
> 
> -Ned
> 
> *From: *RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Laurence Lundblade 
> <lgl@island-resort.com>
> *Date: *Friday, November 15, 2019 at 10:41 AM
> *To: *"Fuchs, Andreas" <andreas.fuchs@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> *Cc: *"rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [Rats] FIDO TPM attestation
> 
> Hi Andreas,
> 
> Here’s the frame up as I see it for EAT  and FIDO from most secure to 
> least. I believe EAT implementations can eventually be as secure as a 
> TPM and we want to design EAT so such high-security implementations will 
> eventually be in the market.
> 
> *Hardware-Only (No SW!)*
> 
> ·EAT with a small number of claims (HW Version, HW OEM, boot / debug 
> state, simple TPM-like measurement) is possible in pure HW.
> 
> ·Pretty sure many TPMs are implemented in pure HW.
> 
> ·Certifiable to very high levels.
> 
> ·FIDO is too complex for pure HW.
> 
> *Secure Element and similar*
> 
> ·EAT with a lot of claims
> 
> ·Simpler FIDO implementations without biometrics.
> 
> ·Some may consider this less secure than pure HW because complexity is 
> higher, but I don’t think there is an absolute rule here.
> 
> ·Pretty sure this can be CC certified at the same level as HW only.
> 
> *Separate CPU*
> 
> You can add a CPU like an Arm Cortex M3 to your circuit board or to your 
> SoC. Some of off-the-shelf CPUs even have some HW defenses (the SC 
> version of the M3). It can run some super simple SW, simpler than a 
> secure element.
> 
> ·EAT with a lot of claims
> 
> ·Most all FIDO
> 
> ·I’d peg security and certifiability as somewhere between the secure 
> element and the TEE depending on the HW design. Both can be pretty high.
> 
> *TEE, SGX, VBS*
> 
> ·EAT with a lot of claims
> 
> ·Most all FIDO
> 
> ·Usually cannot implement advanced HW chip defenses because these are a 
> mode of super-fast large CPUs and these defense would slow them down to 
> much and consume too much power.
> 
> ·Not certifiable at the same levels as the above, but still certifiable 
> in pretty thorough ways like the CC-based GP TEE PP (link below)
> 
> ·SW complexity is a lot higher so either certification cost is higher or 
> certification is less thorough
> 
> Don’t disagree with anything in your latest comment. :-)
> 
> LL
> 
> 
> 
>     On Nov 14, 2019, at 8:17 AM, Fuchs, Andreas
>     <andreas.fuchs@sit.fraunhofer.de
>     <mailto:andreas.fuchs@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
> 
>     We were talking about FIDO as one of many applications running in a TEE.
> 
>     They rely on correctness of other TEE-apps and/or the TEE kernel
> 
>     (or should I rather say TEE operating system). Thus a turing
>     complete solution
> 
>     (maybe even with loadable apps) and OS cannot be as secure as a
>     special-purpose
> 
>     functional logic security provider.
> 
>     Also, by design an on-chip TEE offering cannot be as secure as a
>     physically
> 
>     separated chip that incorporates smartcard technologies. You also
>     highlight
> 
>     this by providing yubikey as example which is both; a separate
>     SC-like chip
> 
>     and fixed functional logic (similar to TPMs).
> 
>     To conclude: fixed functional logic and separate chips have higher
>     assurance
> 
>     levels than turing-complete (loadable) areas of the main cpu.
> 
>     And to your original point: TPMs are the preferred solution for
>     attestation
> 
>     in contrast to to a TEE-based approach, just as YubiKeys et al are
>     preferred
> 
>     for FIDO in contrast to a TEE-based approach.
> 
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>     *From:*Laurence Lundblade [lgl@island-resort.com
>     <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>]
>     *Sent:*Thursday, November 14, 2019 16:51
>     *To:*Fuchs, Andreas
>     *Cc:*rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org>
>     *Subject:*Re: [Rats] FIDO TPM attestation
> 
>         On Nov 14, 2019, at 1:46 AM, Fuchs, Andreas
>         <andreas.fuchs@sit.fraunhofer.de
>         <mailto:andreas.fuchs@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
> 
>         The FIDO code running inside a TEE is not standardized (to the
>         level of TPM) and most certainly not CC-evaluated.
> 
>     That’s not true.
> 
>         TheFIDO L3 and L3+ Certification program
>         <https://fidoalliance.org/certification/authenticator-certification-levels/authenticator-level-3/> is
>         CC (Common Criteria) based (AVA_VAN.3 and AVA_VAN.4).
> 
>         Many FIDO authenticators run on secure elements which provides
>         roughly equivalent security to a TPM, however since the full
>         authenticator protocol runs on the turing-complete secure
>         element the full FIDO protocol is secured, not just the key
>         storage. Here’s one
>         <https://www.yubico.com/products/yubikey-hardware/yubikey%20neo/>.
> 
>         Global Platform offers a CC-based certification program for
>         TEE’s
>         <https://www.commoncriteriaportal.org/files/ppfiles/anssi-profil_PP-2014_01.pdf>.
>         FIDO is working on a certification program that will make use of
>         that.
> 
>         BSI has published a CC-based protection profile for FIDO
>         <https://www.commoncriteriaportal.org/files/ppfiles/pp0096a_pdf.pdf>.
> 
>         Android Keystore’s now supports StrongBox
>         <https://proandroiddev.com/android-keystore-what-is-the-difference-between-strongbox-and-hardware-backed-keys-4c276ea78fd0>,
>         which puts the keys in a secure element.
> 
>         Qualcomm’s Snapdragon mobile phone chip has a secure-element
>         like subsystem
>         <https://www.qualcomm.com/news/releases/2019/06/25/qualcomm-snapdragon-855-becomes-first-mobile-soc-receive-smart-card> (not
>         the TEE) that is CC-certified.
> 
>         TEE and TEE-like offerings are stronger than they used to be,
>         particular by supporting memory encryption.
> 
>     Turing complete security products come in a range of security levels
>     all the way up the security level offered by a TPM. EAT
>     implementations can be just as secure and certified as TPM attestation.
> 
>     LL
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> 


From nobody Sun Nov 17 22:49:29 2019
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There should be "hints" (this a common and often used concept) that 
provide qualification to Attestation Evidence with respect to its 
intended protection. Policies should be able to decide how and why to 
rely on these protection hints, I think.

Hints could be implied by signature semantics, though. If not they 
should be made explicit.

Viele Grüße,

Henk


On 16.11.19 01:58, Smith, Ned wrote:
[..]
> In either case, it doesn’t make sense for RATS WG (outside of gaining 
> technical context) to rationalize which technology is more/less secure. 
> This is a policy decision applied by Verifiers and Relying Parties. RATS 
> WG should think about what claims should be expressed and how best to 
> instantiate them IMHO.
> 
> -Ned
> 
> *From: *RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Laurence Lundblade 
> <lgl@island-resort.com>
> *Date: *Friday, November 15, 2019 at 10:41 AM
> *To: *"Fuchs, Andreas" <andreas.fuchs@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> *Cc: *"rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [Rats] FIDO TPM attestation
> 
> Hi Andreas,
> 
> Here’s the frame up as I see it for EAT  and FIDO from most secure to 
> least. I believe EAT implementations can eventually be as secure as a 
> TPM and we want to design EAT so such high-security implementations will 
> eventually be in the market.
> 
> *Hardware-Only (No SW!)*
> 
> ·EAT with a small number of claims (HW Version, HW OEM, boot / debug 
> state, simple TPM-like measurement) is possible in pure HW.
> 
> ·Pretty sure many TPMs are implemented in pure HW.
> 
> ·Certifiable to very high levels.
> 
> ·FIDO is too complex for pure HW.
> 
> *Secure Element and similar*
> 
> ·EAT with a lot of claims
> 
> ·Simpler FIDO implementations without biometrics.
> 
> ·Some may consider this less secure than pure HW because complexity is 
> higher, but I don’t think there is an absolute rule here.
> 
> ·Pretty sure this can be CC certified at the same level as HW only.
> 
> *Separate CPU*
> 
> You can add a CPU like an Arm Cortex M3 to your circuit board or to your 
> SoC. Some of off-the-shelf CPUs even have some HW defenses (the SC 
> version of the M3). It can run some super simple SW, simpler than a 
> secure element.
> 
> ·EAT with a lot of claims
> 
> ·Most all FIDO
> 
> ·I’d peg security and certifiability as somewhere between the secure 
> element and the TEE depending on the HW design. Both can be pretty high.
> 
> *TEE, SGX, VBS*
> 
> ·EAT with a lot of claims
> 
> ·Most all FIDO
> 
> ·Usually cannot implement advanced HW chip defenses because these are a 
> mode of super-fast large CPUs and these defense would slow them down to 
> much and consume too much power.
> 
> ·Not certifiable at the same levels as the above, but still certifiable 
> in pretty thorough ways like the CC-based GP TEE PP (link below)
> 
> ·SW complexity is a lot higher so either certification cost is higher or 
> certification is less thorough
> 
> Don’t disagree with anything in your latest comment. :-)
> 
> LL
> 
> 
> 
>     On Nov 14, 2019, at 8:17 AM, Fuchs, Andreas
>     <andreas.fuchs@sit.fraunhofer.de
>     <mailto:andreas.fuchs@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
> 
>     We were talking about FIDO as one of many applications running in a TEE.
> 
>     They rely on correctness of other TEE-apps and/or the TEE kernel
> 
>     (or should I rather say TEE operating system). Thus a turing
>     complete solution
> 
>     (maybe even with loadable apps) and OS cannot be as secure as a
>     special-purpose
> 
>     functional logic security provider.
> 
>     Also, by design an on-chip TEE offering cannot be as secure as a
>     physically
> 
>     separated chip that incorporates smartcard technologies. You also
>     highlight
> 
>     this by providing yubikey as example which is both; a separate
>     SC-like chip
> 
>     and fixed functional logic (similar to TPMs).
> 
>     To conclude: fixed functional logic and separate chips have higher
>     assurance
> 
>     levels than turing-complete (loadable) areas of the main cpu.
> 
>     And to your original point: TPMs are the preferred solution for
>     attestation
> 
>     in contrast to to a TEE-based approach, just as YubiKeys et al are
>     preferred
> 
>     for FIDO in contrast to a TEE-based approach.
> 
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>     *From:*Laurence Lundblade [lgl@island-resort.com
>     <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>]
>     *Sent:*Thursday, November 14, 2019 16:51
>     *To:*Fuchs, Andreas
>     *Cc:*rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org>
>     *Subject:*Re: [Rats] FIDO TPM attestation
> 
>         On Nov 14, 2019, at 1:46 AM, Fuchs, Andreas
>         <andreas.fuchs@sit.fraunhofer.de
>         <mailto:andreas.fuchs@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
> 
>         The FIDO code running inside a TEE is not standardized (to the
>         level of TPM) and most certainly not CC-evaluated.
> 
>     That’s not true.
> 
>         TheFIDO L3 and L3+ Certification program
>         <https://fidoalliance.org/certification/authenticator-certification-levels/authenticator-level-3/> is
>         CC (Common Criteria) based (AVA_VAN.3 and AVA_VAN.4).
> 
>         Many FIDO authenticators run on secure elements which provides
>         roughly equivalent security to a TPM, however since the full
>         authenticator protocol runs on the turing-complete secure
>         element the full FIDO protocol is secured, not just the key
>         storage. Here’s one
>         <https://www.yubico.com/products/yubikey-hardware/yubikey%20neo/>.
> 
>         Global Platform offers a CC-based certification program for
>         TEE’s
>         <https://www.commoncriteriaportal.org/files/ppfiles/anssi-profil_PP-2014_01.pdf>.
>         FIDO is working on a certification program that will make use of
>         that.
> 
>         BSI has published a CC-based protection profile for FIDO
>         <https://www.commoncriteriaportal.org/files/ppfiles/pp0096a_pdf.pdf>.
> 
>         Android Keystore’s now supports StrongBox
>         <https://proandroiddev.com/android-keystore-what-is-the-difference-between-strongbox-and-hardware-backed-keys-4c276ea78fd0>,
>         which puts the keys in a secure element.
> 
>         Qualcomm’s Snapdragon mobile phone chip has a secure-element
>         like subsystem
>         <https://www.qualcomm.com/news/releases/2019/06/25/qualcomm-snapdragon-855-becomes-first-mobile-soc-receive-smart-card> (not
>         the TEE) that is CC-certified.
> 
>         TEE and TEE-like offerings are stronger than they used to be,
>         particular by supporting memory encryption.
> 
>     Turing complete security products come in a range of security levels
>     all the way up the security level offered by a TPM. EAT
>     implementations can be just as secure and certified as TPM attestation.
> 
>     LL
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
> 


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From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
To: =?utf-8?B?U2Now7Zud8OkbGRlciwgSsO8cmdlbg==?= <J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, Dave Thaler <dthaler=40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
CC: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" <ncamwing@cisco.com>, "Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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> From: Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder, J=C3=BCrgen, November 17, 2019 9:41 AM
>=20
> On Fri, Nov 15, 2019 at 07:38:32AM +0000, Dave Thaler wrote:
> >
> > If there is a compelling reason to support a pull-based mechanism, =
and we
> get consensus that we need it, then great.
> > But so far I haven=E2=80=99t heard one.
> >
>=20
> I hope I get the terminology right...
>=20
> Research papers I have seen often use a challenge response model where
> the 'verifier' sends a specific challenge that the 'attester' has to =
answer
> (often with time constraints, minimizing the chance to relay the =
challenge
> and such things). I think I pointed this out before.
>=20
> Perhaps RATS does not need this form of challenge response attestation =
and
> perhaps RATS is fine with the assumption that the attester somehow =
knows
> which claims a verifier needs. But then it would be nice to spell this =
out
> clearly so that people looking for challenge response attestation =
attestation
> flows know that RATS is not for them.

Commercial products which do challenge/response type remote attestation =
currently exist.  E.g.: =
https://www.cisco.com/c/dam/en/us/td/docs/cloud-systems-management/applic=
ation-policy-infrastructure-controller-enterprise-module/1-5-x/integrity_=
verification/release-notes_ver_275/Cisco_IV_App_RN_1_5_0_275.pdf=20

I am hoping that RATS supports such applications.

Eric

> /js
>=20
> --
> Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats

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Thread-Topic: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/oe-7dSu00gq2ZstoMkY0jOigZX4>
Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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Cc: =?utf-8?B?IlNjaMO2bnfDpGxkZXIsIErDvHJnZW4i?= <J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>,  "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" <ncamwing@cisco.com>, "Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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--Apple-Mail=_9F17434C-5AB2-47DF-A025-2E1C2976C105
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> On Nov 18, 2019, at 4:52 PM, Dave Thaler =
<dthaler=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>=20
> Case 1) The network notices anomalous traffic coming from a device =
already on the network, which triggers a verifier to ask the device to =
attest to its health (which may have changed since it was last =
attested).  Here there might even be no Relying Party involved per se.=20=

> Case 2) The network has not noticed anything odd, but wants to =
proactively query a device anyway, e.g., because the network's appraisal =
policy of what is considered trustworthy has just changed.  Again there =
might even be no Relying Party involved.

I would call the network the relying party. Attestation always has a =
relying party because there would be no point if no one cared (if a tree =
falls in a forest=E2=80=A6)

LL



--Apple-Mail=_9F17434C-5AB2-47DF-A025-2E1C2976C105
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
Nov 18, 2019, at 4:52 PM, Dave Thaler &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dthaler=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org" =
class=3D"">dthaler=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">Case 1) The network notices =
anomalous traffic coming from a device already on the network, which =
triggers a verifier to ask the device to attest to its health (which may =
have changed since it was last attested). &nbsp;Here there might even be =
no Relying Party involved per se.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">Case 2) The network has not =
noticed anything odd, but wants to proactively query a device anyway, =
e.g., because the network's appraisal policy of what is considered =
trustworthy has just changed. &nbsp;Again there might even be no Relying =
Party involved.</span></div></blockquote><br class=3D""></div><div>I =
would call the network the relying party. Attestation always has a =
relying party because there would be no point if no one cared (if a tree =
falls in a forest=E2=80=A6)</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>LL</div><div><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D""></body></html>=

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Thread-Topic: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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From nobody Mon Nov 18 01:09:24 2019
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From: Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
CC: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" <ncamwing@cisco.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, =?utf-8?B?IlNjaMO2bnfDpGxkZXIsIErDvHJnZW4i?= <J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, "Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 09:09:17 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/zLyGLdB4hDWhiPWvCTInk5i39Mw>
Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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From nobody Mon Nov 18 01:17:24 2019
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From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
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Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 17:17:08 +0800
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Cc: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" <ncamwing@cisco.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, =?utf-8?B?IlNjaMO2bnfDpGxkZXIsIErDvHJnZW4i?= <J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>,  "Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>
To: Dave Thaler <dthaler=40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/75vw0fURIj_MGTfRGGzDCfp3C5M>
Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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If a tree falls in a forest, even if no one hears it, there is a log.

LL




> On Nov 18, 2019, at 5:09 PM, Dave Thaler =
<dthaler=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
>=20
> I do think it would be useful to keep your statement true, so I will =
think about how to define Relying Party since I suspect there=E2=80=99s =
a way around it that we would both like.
> =20
> From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>> On =
Behalf Of Dave Thaler
> Sent: Monday, November 18, 2019 5:04 PM
> To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com =
<mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>>
> Cc: Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com <mailto:ned.smith@intel.com>>; =
Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>; Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) =
<ncamwing@cisco.com <mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com>>; rats@ietf.org =
<mailto:rats@ietf.org>; "Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder, J=C3=BCrgen" =
<J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de =
<mailto:J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>>; Oliver, Ian (Nokia - =
FI/Espoo) <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com =
<mailto:ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>>
> Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang =
module draft
> =20
> If all you do is log, then there is no enforcement, and since the =
device doesn=E2=80=99t talk to the log, you can=E2=80=99t call the log a =
=E2=80=9CRelying Party=E2=80=9D.
> I didn=E2=80=99t say there was never a Relying Party (if you do =
enforcement and kick the device off the network or something then yes =
there=E2=80=99s a Relying Party), I said =E2=80=9Cmight be no=E2=80=9D.
> So I disagree with =E2=80=9CAttestation always has a relying party=E2=80=
=9D based on my discussion with Nancy.
> Before the hackathon I would have agreed with that statement J
> =20
> From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com =
<mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>>=20
> Sent: Monday, November 18, 2019 4:59 PM
> To: Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com <mailto:dthaler@microsoft.com>>
> Cc: "Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder, J=C3=BCrgen" =
<J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de =
<mailto:J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>>; Smith, Ned =
<ned.smith@intel.com <mailto:ned.smith@intel.com>>; Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>; Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) =
<ncamwing@cisco.com <mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com>>; Oliver, Ian (Nokia - =
FI/Espoo) <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com =
<mailto:ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>>; rats@ietf.org =
<mailto:rats@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang =
module draft
> =20
> =20
> On Nov 18, 2019, at 4:52 PM, Dave Thaler =
<dthaler=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org =
<mailto:dthaler=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>> wrote:
> =20
> Case 1) The network notices anomalous traffic coming from a device =
already on the network, which triggers a verifier to ask the device to =
attest to its health (which may have changed since it was last =
attested).  Here there might even be no Relying Party involved per se.=20=

> Case 2) The network has not noticed anything odd, but wants to =
proactively query a device anyway, e.g., because the network's appraisal =
policy of what is considered trustworthy has just changed.  Again there =
might even be no Relying Party involved.
> =20
> I would call the network the relying party. Attestation always has a =
relying party because there would be no point if no one cared (if a tree =
falls in a forest=E2=80=A6)
> =20
> LL
> =20
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats>

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">If a tree falls in a forest, even if no one hears it, there =
is a log.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Nov =
18, 2019, at 5:09 PM, Dave Thaler &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dthaler=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org" =
class=3D"">dthaler=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">I do think it would be =
useful to keep your statement true, so I will think about how to define =
Relying Party since I suspect there=E2=80=99s a way around it that we =
would both like.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; =
border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>RATS &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;<span=
 class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">On Behalf =
Of<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Dave Thaler<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Monday, November 18, 2019 =
5:04 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Smith, Ned &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">ned.smith@intel.com</a>&gt;; =
Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;; Nancy Cam-Winget =
(ncamwing) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">ncamwing@cisco.com</a>&gt;;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">rats@ietf.org</a>; "Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder, =
J=C3=BCrgen" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de</a>&gt;; Oliver, Ian =
(Nokia - FI/Espoo) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Rats] Call for =
adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">If =
all you do is log, then there is no enforcement, and since the device =
doesn=E2=80=99t talk to the log, you can=E2=80=99t call the log a =
=E2=80=9CRelying Party=E2=80=9D.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">I didn=E2=80=99t say there was never a Relying Party (if you =
do enforcement and kick the device off the network or something then yes =
there=E2=80=99s a Relying Party), I said =E2=80=9Cmight be no=E2=80=9D.<o:=
p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D"">So I disagree with =
=E2=80=9CAttestation always has a relying party=E2=80=9D based on my =
discussion with Nancy.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" =
class=3D"">Before the hackathon I would have agreed with that =
statement<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Wingdings; color: rgb(31, 73, =
125);" class=3D"">J</span><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; =
border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt;<span=
 class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Monday, November 18, 2019 =
4:59 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Dave Thaler &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dthaler@microsoft.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">dthaler@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>"Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder, =
J=C3=BCrgen" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de</a>&gt;; Smith, Ned =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">ned.smith@intel.com</a>&gt;; =
Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;; Nancy Cam-Winget =
(ncamwing) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">ncamwing@cisco.com</a>&gt;; Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com</a>&gt;;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">rats@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Rats] Call for =
adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin:=
 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D"">On Nov 18, 2019, at 4:52 PM, Dave Thaler &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dthaler=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">dthaler=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
&quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
9pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Case 1) The network =
notices anomalous traffic coming from a device already on the network, =
which triggers a verifier to ask the device to attest to its health =
(which may have changed since it was last attested). &nbsp;Here there =
might even be no Relying Party involved per se.<span =
class=3D"apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D"">Case 2) The =
network has not noticed anything odd, but wants to proactively query a =
device anyway, e.g., because the network's appraisal policy of what is =
considered trustworthy has just changed. &nbsp;Again there might even be =
no Relying Party involved.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></blockquote><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">I would =
call the network the relying party. Attestation always has a relying =
party because there would be no point if no one cared (if a tree falls =
in a forest=E2=80=A6)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D"">LL<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;, =
serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">RATS mailing list</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D"">RATS@ietf.org</a><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: =
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats</a></div></blockquot=
e></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From nobody Mon Nov 18 01:56:32 2019
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To: Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>, =?UTF-8?B?U2Now7Zud8OkbGRlciwgSsO8cmdlbg==?= <J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
CC: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" <ncamwing@cisco.com>, "Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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How is a nonce included as a proof of freshness in this scenario=

Viele Grüße,

Henk

On 18.11.19 09:52, Dave Thaler wrote:
> Challenge response can be done in a protocol initiated by the Attester,


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From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sch=F6nw=E4lder=2C_J=FCrgen?= <J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
To: Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>
CC: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" <ncamwing@cisco.com>, "Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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On Mon, Nov 18, 2019 at 08:52:26AM +0000, Dave Thaler wrote:
> Challenge response can be done in a protocol initiated by the Attester, w=
hether the Attester talks directly to the Verifier (passport model),
> or indirectly via a Relying Party (normal background check model), withou=
t having the device needing to run a server of some sort like netconf or re=
stconf.
>

I asked about a challenge/response interaction model in the
architecture; how communication is done should not be relevant for the
architecture.

Disclaimer: While I have been somewhat involved in the design of yang
/ restconf / netconf, that does not mean I believe these technologies
are always a good fit. (I specifically asked why people believe YANG
is a good fit for TPM since this appeared to be a rather surprising
use of YANG to me.) I am not here to push yang or netconf or restconf,
I am here because I am interested in remote attestations.

/js

--=20
Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>


From nobody Mon Nov 18 02:09:51 2019
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OH - I see, you want to include a call home feature in the ecosystem of 
interaction models. There be dragons, though.

On 18.11.19 09:52, Dave Thaler wrote:
> triggers a verifier to ask the device to attest to its health


From nobody Mon Nov 18 02:34:03 2019
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Comments: In-reply-to Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com> message dated "Mon, 18 Nov 2019 16:59:15 +0800."
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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    >> Case 1) The network notices anomalous traffic coming from a device
    >> already on the network, which triggers a verifier to ask the device =
to
    >> attest to its health (which may have changed since it was last
    >> attested).  Here there might even be no Relying Party involved per s=
e.

    >> Case 2) The network has not noticed anything odd, but wants to
    >> proactively query a device anyway, e.g., because the network's
    >> appraisal policy of what is considered trustworthy has just changed.
    >> Again there might even be no Relying Party involved.

Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com> wrote:
    > I would call the network the relying party. Attestation always has a
    > relying party because there would be no point if no one cared (if a
    > tree falls in a forest=E2=80=A6)

I would be even more specific to say that the network's Policy Enforcement
Point is the relying party.=20


=2D-=20
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-




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From: Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>
To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, =?utf-8?B?U2Now7Zud8OkbGRlciwgSsO8cmdlbg==?= <J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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From: Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>
To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>,  Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, =?utf-8?B?U2Now7Zud8OkbGRlciwgSsO8cmdlbg==?= <J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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In-Reply-To: <20191114140600.itrr5mjiysgutsj5@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de>
From: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 07:42:52 -0500
Message-ID: <CAHbuEH7ntaqD28QXv90RUTrcdTmcvej8Hw0TN3jx=ABo6Er4Qw@mail.gmail.com>
To: =?UTF-8?B?U2Now7Zud8OkbGRlciwgSsO8cmdlbg==?= <J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
Cc: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>,  Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>,  "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" <ncamwing@cisco.com>,  "Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>, Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/3IoqR9fCoE1q8tgriii7io8CR3M>
Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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In reading this thread, I do hope we don't spend a lot of time on the
definition of a token.  I think it's been stated pretty clearly in this
thread, so let's just get it down in a document and move on.  I did see one
place mention a set of claims is a token (the point in the thread argued
that and I agree as it's more than just claims).  A token is some data,
some claims, and a signature.  I think it was Jurgen's previous message to
this one that had a pretty good definition.

Also on the point of binary - when I present anything that has to do with
JOSE and COSE, this is one of the things I start out with as the
differences between the two as well as COSE being designed for constrained
devices, so it's more compact.  Perhaps stating a preference for CWT with
this justification makes sense to someone else's point about not supporting
multiple formats.  This would continue to support multiple formats for
EATs, but would set a recommendation.  I won't go as far as to say a
Mandatory to implement as that doesn't make sense in a full JSON
environment where you wouldn't want to introduce COSE.

Sorry for the top post.  This was a long thread to catch up on and the
other points from my thoughts were addressed.

Thanks,
Kathleen

On Thu, Nov 14, 2019 at 9:06 AM Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder, J=C3=BCrgen <
J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 10:07:02AM -0800, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
> >
> > I see EAT as applicable to all these worlds, where the YANG module is
> just for the smallish router world. So I mostly agree with Dave about
> proportions, however this is the IETF where YANG modules are created.
> (Maybe I should go join the W3C world and work on attestations APIs for
> browsers after RATS is done).
> >
>
> If EAT is the common format for "token", then it does not make sense
> to me to define a YANG version of it. It may make sense to carry EAT
> token over protocols such as NETCONF or RESTCONF and to have a YANG
> module defining this may make sense for the networking device world.
> This is then a definition of an interaction protocol, but not the
> token format itself.
>
> If EAT is the common format for "token", then it may make sense to be
> able to include "claims" that are YANG defined data. That may be an
> extension of the core EAT definition (but EAT would have to allow for
> such an extension to work). There is a lot of formally defined data in
> YANG modules that would be convenient to reuse as claims in a
> networking world.
>
> /js
>
> --
> Juergen Schoenwaelder           Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH
> Phone: +49 421 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | Germany
> Fax:   +49 421 200 3103         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>
>
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>


--=20

Best regards,
Kathleen

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<div dir=3D"ltr">In reading this thread, I do hope we don&#39;t spend a lot=
 of time on the definition=C2=A0of a token.=C2=A0 I think it&#39;s been sta=
ted pretty clearly in this thread, so let&#39;s just get it down in a docum=
ent and move on.=C2=A0 I did see one place mention a set of claims is a tok=
en (the point in the thread argued that and I agree as it&#39;s more than j=
ust claims).=C2=A0 A token is some data, some claims, and a signature.=C2=
=A0 I think it was Jurgen&#39;s previous message to this one that had a pre=
tty good definition.<div><br></div><div>Also on the point of binary - when =
I present anything that has to do with JOSE and COSE, this is one of the th=
ings I start out with as the differences between the two as well as COSE be=
ing designed for constrained devices, so it&#39;s more compact.=C2=A0 Perha=
ps stating a preference for CWT with this justification makes sense to some=
one else&#39;s point about not supporting multiple formats.=C2=A0 This woul=
d continue to support multiple formats for EATs, but would set a recommenda=
tion.=C2=A0 I won&#39;t go as far as to say a Mandatory to implement as tha=
t doesn&#39;t make sense in a full JSON environment=C2=A0where you wouldn&#=
39;t want to introduce COSE.</div><div><br></div><div>Sorry for the top pos=
t.=C2=A0 This was a long thread to catch up on and the other points from my=
 thoughts were addressed.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Kathle=
en</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmai=
l_attr">On Thu, Nov 14, 2019 at 9:06 AM Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder, J=C3=BCrgen =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de">J.Schoenwaelder=
@jacobs-university.de</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_qu=
ote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,20=
4);padding-left:1ex">On Wed, Nov 13, 2019 at 10:07:02AM -0800, Laurence Lun=
dblade wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I see EAT as applicable to all these worlds, where the YANG module is =
just for the smallish router world. So I mostly agree with Dave about propo=
rtions, however this is the IETF where YANG modules are created.=C2=A0 (May=
be I should go join the W3C world and work on attestations APIs for browser=
s after RATS is done).<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
If EAT is the common format for &quot;token&quot;, then it does not make se=
nse<br>
to me to define a YANG version of it. It may make sense to carry EAT<br>
token over protocols such as NETCONF or RESTCONF and to have a YANG<br>
module defining this may make sense for the networking device world.<br>
This is then a definition of an interaction protocol, but not the<br>
token format itself.<br>
<br>
If EAT is the common format for &quot;token&quot;, then it may make sense t=
o be<br>
able to include &quot;claims&quot; that are YANG defined data. That may be =
an<br>
extension of the core EAT definition (but EAT would have to allow for<br>
such an extension to work). There is a lot of formally defined data in<br>
YANG modules that would be convenient to reuse as claims in a<br>
networking world.<br>
<br>
/js<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Juergen Schoenwaelder=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Jacobs Univer=
sity Bremen gGmbH<br>
Phone: +49 421 200 3587=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Campus Ring 1 | 28=
759 Bremen | Germany<br>
Fax:=C2=A0 =C2=A0+49 421 200 3103=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;<a h=
ref=3D"https://www.jacobs-university.de/" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_bla=
nk">https://www.jacobs-university.de/</a>&gt;<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
RATS mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">RATS@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"=
 class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div>Best regards,</div><di=
v>Kathleen</div></div></div>

--000000000000617cf405979e4b26--


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In-Reply-To: <DM6PR11MB4154BB7B7BA4A9CFAEDE1506A1700@DM6PR11MB4154.namprd11.prod.outlook.com>
From: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2019 07:46:15 -0500
Message-ID: <CAHbuEH5cFi8yJ99OSNKD+ws5hGf14gDGcb3hoqrBO7++FmABzQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
Cc: Dave Thaler <dthaler=40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>,  Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" <ncamwing@cisco.com>,  "Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>,  Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/Ijorw5edVlmWabpUisPg-VwHUFg>
Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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On Fri, Nov 15, 2019 at 9:38 AM Eric Voit (evoit) <evoit@cisco.com> wrote:

> *From:* Dave Thaler, November 15, 2019 2:39 AM
>
> Netconf is not the only protocol supported by routers.
>
> Routers also support IPv4, IPv6, link-layer protocols such as Ethernet,
> routing protocols, often things like DHCP relay, RADIUS, etc.
>
> <Eric> Below I would have said " Router/YANG" below rather than
> "Router/NETCONF".
>
>
>
> I have not yet seen a compelling reason to use a pull-based mechanism
> instead of a push-based mechanism via another protocol the routers alread=
y
> support.
>
> <Eric> Router vendors want push-based mechanisms too.  And NETCONF does
> push.  See RFC-8640 and RFC-5277.
>
>
>
> The only reason I=E2=80=99ve heard so far is =E2=80=9Cbecause they suppor=
t netconf and
> we=E2=80=99re used to it=E2=80=9D, to which the counter argument is as ab=
ove:
>
> they support other things too and we=E2=80=99re used to them too.
>
> <Eric> There is piles of documentation in the IETF and beyond detailing
> the reasoning and extent of consolidation on YANG for network management.
>   IETF, IEEE, MEF, OpenConfig, and others forums are defining these.  I
> wouldn't expect another anytime soon.
>
>
>
> NETCONF can support YANG. Other transports can support YANG.   The curren=
t
> draft under an adoption call does not specifically reference NETCONF.
>
>
>
> In order to know who to pull data from, the Verifier has to have some
> indication from the Attester that triggers the attestation request
>
> indicated as Step 1 in draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation.  S=
o
> in reality, there has to be a step before step 1,
>
> whereby the Attester does something that makes the Attester discoverable
> by the Verifier.   That step could have included the EAT or the TPM data
>
> expressed in the YANG draft, or whatever else, and then you=E2=80=99ve av=
oided the
> need for netconf, and reduced the number of round trips,
>
> improving latency and bandwidth.
>
> <Eric> It is already possible to subscribe to existing proprietary YANG
> attestation models.  This requires zero extra round-trips.   The push can
> be leave the Attester in <1 sec.
>
>
>
> If there is a compelling reason to support a pull-based mechanism, and we
> get consensus that we need it, then great.
>
> But so far I haven=E2=80=99t heard one.
>
> <Eric> A YANG model supports both push and pull.  Application vendors wan=
t
> a standard attestation model.  That is why you have many network vendors
> authoring this YANG draft under the adoption call.
>
>
>
> Honestly I don't understand the push-back.   This should be a no-brainer.
>

Agreed, seems like an unnecessary rat hole.  The conversation should move
on.

Thanks,
Kathleen


>
>
> /Eric
>
>
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> *From:* Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 13, 2019 10:07 AM
> *To:* Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>
> *Cc:* Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com>; Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) <
> ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs..com <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>>; Nancy
> Cam-Winget (ncamwing) <ncamwing@cisco.com>; rats@ietf.org; Henk Birkholz =
<
> henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> *Subject:* Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang
> module draft
>
>
>
> My version of technology bases for attestation is something like this:
>
>
>
> *Router/Netconf World*
>
> Millions of devices. Currently TPM oriented. Long possible transition to
> EAT. YANG used to create very specific fine-grained interactions. No
> privacy issues.
>
>
>
> *Web Browser World*
>
> Billions of devices. Current attestation use is primarily WebAuthN / FIDO=
.
> JWT is used heavily for authentication so would be more EAT oriented, but
> TPM attestation is supported in FIDO. Larger use of attestation may evolv=
e.
> Fine-grained interactions are with WebAPIs (Javascript) (sort of parallel
> to YANG for routers). Big privacy issues.
>
>
>
> *Mobile App World*
>
> Billions of devices. Main attestation use is Android=E2=80=99s Keystore. =
This is
> EAT-like, but based on X.509. Fine grained interactions are Android APIs.=
 I
> may be out of date, but so far IoS doesn=E2=80=99t do attestation. Privac=
y issues
> vary by app.
>
>
>
> *IoT World*
>
> Billions of devices most likely going to trillions. Attestation is a
> critical enabling feature in this world. There are lots of protocols and
> formats involved. TPMs are too expensive for many of these, but are
> probably in use somewhere. No privacy issues for a large portion of this
> world.
>
>
>
> The router world is the smallest, but it is =E2=80=9Cwell represented=E2=
=80=9D because
> this is the IETF.
>
>
>
> I see EAT as applicable to all these worlds, where the YANG module is jus=
t
> for the smallish router world. So I mostly agree with Dave about
> proportions, however this is the IETF where YANG modules are created.
>  (Maybe I should go join the W3C world and work on attestations APIs for
> browsers after RATS is done).
>
>
>
> LL
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 11, 2019, at 5:43 PM, Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> As far as I can understand from draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module-01
> and
>
> draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-01, they break down the us=
e
> case
>
> space as follows:
>
>
>
>                         Requirements?
>
>          +--------------+---------------+---------++---------------
>
>          |  RoT         | Host Firewall | Privacy ||   Solution
>
>          |  Type        |   Enabled     | Needed  ||    Pieces
>
>          +--------------+---------------+---------++---------------
>
>       1  |  SGX         | No            | No      ||
>
>       2  |  SGX         | No            | Yes     ||
>
>       3  |  SGX         | Yes           | No      ||
>
>       4  |  SGX         | Yes           | Yes     ||
>
>       5  |  TrustZone   | No            | No      ||
>
>       6  |  TrustZone   | No            | Yes     ||
>
>       7  |  TrustZone   | Yes           | No      ||
>
>       8  |  TrustZone   | Yes           | Yes     ||
>
>       9  |  TPM         | No            | No      ||
> draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module-01
>
>      10  |  TPM         | No            | Yes     ||
>
>      11  |  TPM         | Yes           | No      ||
>
>      12  |  TPM         | Yes           | Yes     ||
>
>      13  |SecureElement | No            | No      ||
>
>      14  |SecureElement | No            | Yes     ||
>
>      15  |SecureElement | Yes           | No      ||
>
>      16  |SecureElement | Yes           | Yes     ||
>
>      17  | Firmware     | No            | No      ||
>
>      18  | Firmware     | No            | Yes     ||
>
>      19  | Firmware     | Yes           | No      ||
>
>      20  | Firmware     | Yes           | Yes     ||
>
>      .... |   ...        |               |         ||
>
>
>
> And draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-01 further scopes
> itself down
>
> by only being applicable to cases with "embedded" apps only =3D Yes, and
> where
>
> the security policy is only an Exact match against reference values =3D Y=
es.
>
> I believe that the yang draft doesn't have those two restrictions, from m=
y
> reading.
>
> However, the point is that both drafts are VERY narrow, and in the table
> shown above,
>
> only address 1 out of 20 possibilies in that space.
>
>
>
> In contrast, the TEEP WG decided that it was not interested in narrow
> scopings
>
> (specifically something Global Platform specific), but instead wanted one
> general solution.
>
>
>
> If the RATS WG spends effort on something that only addresses a single ro=
w
> out of 20+ rows,
>
> then do we expect 19+ other solutions to also be done in the WG?  Or coul=
d
> we work on things
>
> that are broader and happen to also work for row 9?
>
>
>
> I've seen others commenting on the fact that the YANG module only support=
s
> TPMs and not
>
> other things (EATs etc), which would just add support for a couple more
> rows, but still not
>
> be general.
>
>
>
> Personally, I would much rather see the WG spend effort on things that
> really are generic,
>
> i.e., work with or without host firewalls, work with multiple RoT/TEE
> types, etc., rather
>
> than seeing an explosion of point solutions.
>
>
>
> Dave
>
>
>
> *From:* RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org> *On Behalf Of *Smith, Ned
> *Sent:* Monday, November 11, 2019 10:12 AM
> *To:* Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs..com
> <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>>; Laurence Lundblade <
> lgl@island-resort.com>; Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) <ncamwing@cisco.com>
> *Cc:* rats@ietf.org; Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> *Subject:* Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang
> module draft
>
>
>
> Right. This implies the RATS =E2=80=9Ctoken=E2=80=9D should support exist=
ing =E2=80=9Cbinary=E2=80=9D
> formats as an encapsulation (signed by a second TA where the TPM is a fir=
st
> TA) or as a conveyance (unsigned?) token. Possibly, the only added value =
of
> the latter is a tag that identifies it as a TPM binary format?
>
>
>
>
>
> On 11/10/19, 23:21 PM, "RATS on behalf of Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)"=
 <
> rats-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs..com
> <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Remote TPM attestations are useful and necessary the short run, but are
> of very limited capability. I believe that > EAT will replace TPM
> attestations in the long run (maybe decades) because they are far more
> expressive. I know > others believe that too.
>
>
>
> I would disagree with the statement of "short run" ... TPM is practically
> the only existing standardised (hardware, software, firmware, measurement=
 -
> x86 only etc) hardware root of trust in common use, ie: practically all x=
86
> machines,  The attestation mechanisms provided are going to be around for=
 a
> very long time.
>
>
>
> From telco experience, 30 years ago we said SS7 would only be around in
> the short term.
>
>
>
> > Thus, I am opposed to adoption with the current TPM-only draft. I=E2=80=
=99d be
> OK with the current draft and a promise > to add EAT to it.
>
>
>
> Agree
>
>
>
> Ian
>
>
>
> --
>
> Dr. Ian Oliver
>
> Cybersecurity Research
>
> Distinguished Member of Technical Staff
>
> Nokia Bell Labs
>
> +358 50 483 6237
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
> *Sent:* 11 November 2019 00:44
> *To:* Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) <ncamwing@cisco.com>
> *Cc:* Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>; rats@ietf..org <
> rats@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang
> module draft
>
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 10, 2019, at 2:20 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) <
> ncamwing@cisco.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> So, Laurence, are you still OK with the adoption of the current draft wit=
h
> a rename for now?
> Thanks, Nancy
>
>
>
> I think the value add to the larger RATS effort of adding EAT support to
> this YANG protocol is really high. It a core thing to do that helps bring
> together the two attestation worlds and make the TPM and EAT work here le=
ss
> like ships in the night.
>
>
>
> Remote TPM attestations are useful and necessary the short run, but are o=
f
> very limited capability. I believe that EAT will replace TPM attestations
> in the long run (maybe decades) because they are far more expressive. I
> know others believe that too.
>
>
>
> If we don=E2=80=99t include EAT in the YANG mode it is sort of like defin=
ing HTTP
> to only convey HTML to the exclusion of PDF. We=E2=80=99re defining an at=
testation
> protocol that can only move one kind of attestation even though we have
> consensus on what the other one looks like.
>
>
>
> It seems relatively simple to add EAT support (or promise to add EAT
> support). Pretty sure I heard Henk agree to add it.
>
>
>
> Thus, I am opposed to adoption with the current TPM-only draft. I=E2=80=
=99d be OK
> with the current draft and a promise to add EAT to it.
>
>
>
> LL
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>


--=20

Best regards,
Kathleen

--000000000000850e5e05979e5772
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Nov 15, 2019 at 9:38 AM Eric =
Voit (evoit) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:evoit@cisco.com">evoit@cisco.com</a>&gt;=
 wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lan=
g=3D"EN-US"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Dave Thaler, November =
15, 2019 2:39 AM<br><br></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb=
(31,73,125)">Netconf is not the only protocol supported by routers.<u></u><=
u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)=
">Routers also support IPv4, IPv6, link-layer protocols such as Ethernet, r=
outing protocols, often things like DHCP relay, RADIUS, etc.<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&lt;Eric&gt; Below I would have said &quot=
; Router/YANG&quot; below rather than &quot;Router/NETCONF&quot;.=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 <u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">I have not yet seen a=
 compelling reason to use a pull-based mechanism instead of a push-based me=
chanism via another protocol the routers already support.<u></u><u></u></sp=
an></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&lt;Eric&gt; Router vendors want push-based m=
echanisms too.=C2=A0 And NETCONF does push.=C2=A0 See RFC-8640 and RFC-5277=
.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">The only reason I=E2=80=
=99ve heard so far is =E2=80=9Cbecause they support netconf and we=E2=80=99=
re used to it=E2=80=9D, to which the counter argument is as above:<u></u><u=
></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)"=
>they support other things too and we=E2=80=99re used to them too.<u></u><u=
></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&lt;Eric&gt; There is piles of docum=
entation in the IETF and beyond detailing the reasoning and extent of conso=
lidation on YANG for network management.=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0IETF, IEEE, MEF,=
 OpenConfig, and others forums are defining these.=C2=A0 I wouldn&#39;t exp=
ect another anytime soon.=C2=A0 <u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u=
></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">NETCONF can support YANG. Othe=
r transports can support YANG.=C2=A0=C2=A0 The current draft under an adopt=
ion call does not specifically reference NETCONF.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">In order to know who to pull data from, the Verif=
ier has to have some indication from the Attester that triggers the attesta=
tion request <u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D=
"color:rgb(31,73,125)">indicated as Step 1 in draft-fedorkow-rats-network-d=
evice-attestation.=C2=A0 So in reality, there has to be a step before step =
1,<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(=
31,73,125)">whereby the Attester does something that makes the Attester dis=
coverable by the Verifier.=C2=A0=C2=A0 That step could have included the EA=
T or the TPM data<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">expressed in the YANG draft, or whatever else, a=
nd then you=E2=80=99ve avoided the need for netconf, and reduced the number=
 of round trips,<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">improving latency and bandwidth.<u></u><u></u></s=
pan></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&lt;Eric&gt; It is already possible to subsc=
ribe to existing proprietary YANG attestation models.=C2=A0 This requires z=
ero extra round-trips.=C2=A0 =C2=A0The push can be leave the Attester in &l=
t;1 sec.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">If there is a com=
pelling reason to support a pull-based mechanism, and we get consensus that=
 we need it, then great.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><sp=
an style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">But so far I haven=E2=80=99t heard one.<u=
></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">&lt;Eric&gt; A YANG model sup=
ports both push and pull.=C2=A0 Application vendors want a standard attesta=
tion model.=C2=A0 That is why you have many network vendors authoring this =
YANG draft under the adoption call.<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Honestly I don&#39;t unders=
tand the push-back.=C2=A0=C2=A0 This should be a no-brainer.</p></div></div=
></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Agreed, seems like an unnecessary rat hol=
e.=C2=A0 The conversation should move on.=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><=
div>Thanks,</div><div>Kathleen</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204=
,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal">/Eric<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<=
u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">Dave<=
u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,=
73,125)"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><div><div style=3D"border-right:non=
e;border-bottom:none;border-left:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225)=
;padding:3pt 0in 0in"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Laurence Lundblad=
e &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" target=3D"_blank">lgl@island=
-resort.com</a>&gt; <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 13, 2019 10:07 AM<=
br><b>To:</b> Dave Thaler &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dthaler@microsoft.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">dthaler@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b> Smith, Ned &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com" target=3D"_blank">ned.smith@intel.com<=
/a>&gt;; Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ian.oliver@no=
kia-bell-labs.com" target=3D"_blank">ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs..com</a>&gt=
;; Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">ncamwing@cisco.com</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org=
" target=3D"_blank">rats@ietf.org</a>; Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunh=
ofer.de</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draf=
t rename) for Yang module draft<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">My version of =
technology bases for attestation is something like this:<span style=3D"font=
-size:12pt"><u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u><=
/u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin:5pt 0in 5pt 30pt"><di=
v><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>Router/Netconf World</b><u></u><u></u></p></div=
><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Millions of devices. Currently TPM oriented. L=
ong possible transition to EAT. YANG used to create very specific fine-grai=
ned interactions. No privacy issues.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b=
>Web Browser World</b><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">B=
illions of devices. Current attestation use is primarily WebAuthN / FIDO. J=
WT is used heavily for authentication so would be more EAT oriented, but TP=
M attestation is supported in FIDO. Larger use of attestation may evolve. F=
ine-grained interactions are with WebAPIs (Javascript) (sort of parallel to=
 YANG for routers). Big privacy issues.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><=
b>Mobile App World</b><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">B=
illions of devices. Main attestation use is Android=E2=80=99s Keystore. Thi=
s is EAT-like, but based on X.509. Fine grained interactions are Android AP=
Is. I may be out of date, but so far IoS doesn=E2=80=99t do attestation. Pr=
ivacy issues vary by app.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>IoT World</b=
><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">Billions of devices mo=
st likely going to trillions. Attestation is a critical enabling feature in=
 this world. There are lots of protocols and formats involved. TPMs are too=
 expensive for many of these, but are probably in use somewhere. No privacy=
 issues for a large portion of this world.<u></u><u></u></p></div></blockqu=
ote><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal">The router world is the smallest, but it is =E2=80=9Cwell re=
presented=E2=80=9D because this is the IETF.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p=
 class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNorm=
al">I see EAT as applicable to all these worlds, where the YANG module is j=
ust for the smallish router world. So I mostly agree with Dave about propor=
tions, however this is the IETF where YANG modules are created. =C2=A0(Mayb=
e I should go join the W3C world and work on attestations APIs for browsers=
 after RATS is done).<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u=
></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">LL<u></u><u></u></p=
></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p></div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D=
"margin-bottom:12pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><blockquote style=3D"margin-to=
p:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Nov 11, 2019, at 5:=
43 PM, Dave Thaler &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dthaler@microsoft.com" target=3D"_=
blank">dthaler@microsoft.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></p><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><sp=
an style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">As far as I can understand from draft-bir=
kholz-rats-basic-yang-module-01 and</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"Mso=
Normal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">draft-fedorkow-rats-network-de=
vice-attestation-01, they break down the use case</span><u></u><u></u></p><=
p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">space as follows=
:</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family=
:Consolas;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"=
MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Requirements?</sp=
an><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Cons=
olas;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
 +--------------+---------------+---------++---------------</span><u></u><u=
></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:r=
gb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 RoT=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | Host Firewall | Privacy =
||=C2=A0=C2=A0 Solution=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 </span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0|=C2=A0 Type=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |=C2=A0=C2=A0 Enabled=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 | Needed=C2=A0 ||=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Pieces=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <=
/span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:C=
onsolas;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0+--------------+---------------+---------++---------------</span><=
u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas=
;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 1=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 SGX=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | No=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | No=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 ||</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"fon=
t-family:Consolas;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 2=C2=
=A0 |=C2=A0 SGX=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | No=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | Yes=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ||</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span sty=
le=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 3=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 SGX=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
| Yes=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | No=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ||</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 4=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 SGX=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 | Yes=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 | Yes=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ||</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 5=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 TrustZone=C2=A0=C2=A0 | No=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | No=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ||</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><sp=
an style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 6=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 TrustZone=C2=A0=C2=A0 | No=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | Yes=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 ||</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-f=
amily:Consolas;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 7=C2=A0=
 |=C2=A0 TrustZone=C2=A0=C2=A0 | Yes=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | No=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ||</span><u></u><u=
></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:r=
gb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 8=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 TrustZone=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 | Yes=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
 | Yes=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ||</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNo=
rmal"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 9=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 TPM=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | No=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 | No=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 || draft-birkholz-rats-basi=
c-yang-module-01</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=
=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 10=
=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 TPM=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | No=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | Yes=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ||</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 11=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 TPM=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | =
Yes=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | No=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ||</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
<span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0=C2=A012=C2=A0 |=C2=A0 TPM=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 | Yes=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | Yes=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ||</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
<span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 13=C2=A0 |SecureElement | No=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | No=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ||</span>=
<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Consola=
s;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 14=C2=A0 |SecureElement | =
No=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | Yes=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ||</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
<span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 15=C2=A0 |SecureElement | Yes=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | No=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ||</span><u></u=
><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;colo=
r:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 16=C2=A0 |SecureElement | Yes=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | Yes=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0||</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span styl=
e=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 17=
=C2=A0 | Firmware=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | No=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | No=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
||</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-famil=
y:Consolas;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 18=C2=A0 | Firmwa=
re=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | No=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | Yes=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ||</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:rgb=
(31,73,125)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 19=C2=A0 | Firmware=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 | Yes=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | =
No=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ||</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"Mso=
Normal"><span style=3D"font-family:Consolas;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 20=C2=A0 | Firmware=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | Yes=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 | Yes=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 ||</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"fon=
t-family:Consolas;color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 .... |=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 ...=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 |=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0|=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ||</span><u></u><u></u></p><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><u></u>=
<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">And =
draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation-01 further scopes itself dow=
n</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(3=
1,73,125)">by only being applicable to cases with &quot;embedded&quot; apps=
 only =3D Yes, and where</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><sp=
an style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">the security policy is only an Exact matc=
h against reference values =3D Yes.</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"Mso=
Normal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">I believe that the yang draft =
doesn&#39;t have those two restrictions, from my reading.</span><u></u><u><=
/u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">However,=
 the point is that both drafts are VERY narrow, and in the table shown abov=
e,</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(=
31,73,125)">only address 1 out of 20 possibilies in that space.</span><u></=
u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">=
=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:=
rgb(31,73,125)">In contrast, the TEEP WG decided that it was not interested=
 in narrow scopings</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span st=
yle=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">(specifically something Global Platform specif=
ic), but instead wanted one general solution.</span><u></u><u></u></p><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><u></u>=
<u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">If t=
he RATS WG spends effort on something that only addresses a single row out =
of 20+ rows,</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"=
color:rgb(31,73,125)">then do we expect 19+ other solutions to also be done=
 in the WG?=C2=A0 Or could we work on things</span><u></u><u></u></p><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">that are broader and =
happen to also work for row 9?</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">I&#39;ve seen other=
s commenting on the fact that the YANG module only supports TPMs and not</s=
pan><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73=
,125)">other things (EATs etc), which would just add support for a couple m=
ore rows, but still not</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><spa=
n style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">be general.</span><u></u><u></u></p><p cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><=
u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">Perso=
nally, I would much rather see the WG spend effort on things that really ar=
e generic,</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"co=
lor:rgb(31,73,125)">i.e., work with or without host firewalls, work with mu=
ltiple RoT/TEE types, etc., rather</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">than seeing an explosion of poi=
nt solutions.</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D=
"color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">Dave</span><u></u><u></u></p><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u=
></u></p><div><div style=3D"border-right:none;border-bottom:none;border-lef=
t:none;border-top:1pt solid rgb(225,225,225);padding:3pt 0in 0in"><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> RATS &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.or=
g" target=3D"_blank">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; <b>On Behalf Of </b>Smit=
h, Ned<br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 11, 2019 10:12 AM<br><b>To:</b> Oli=
ver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ian.oliver@nokia-bell-lab=
s.com" target=3D"_blank">ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs..com</a>&gt;; Laurence =
Lundblade &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" target=3D"_blank">lg=
l@island-resort.com</a>&gt;; Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:ncamwing@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">ncamwing@cisco.com</a>&gt;<br><b>=
Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rats@ietf.org</a=
>; Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" tar=
get=3D"_blank">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:</b> R=
e: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft<u></=
u><u></u></p></div></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal">Right. This implies the RATS =E2=80=9Ctoken=E2=80=9D sh=
ould support existing =E2=80=9Cbinary=E2=80=9D formats as an encapsulation =
(signed by a second TA where the TPM is a first TA) or as a conveyance (uns=
igned?) token. Possibly, the only added value of the latter is a tag that i=
dentifies it as a TPM binary format?<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><d=
iv><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">On 11/10/19, 23:=
21 PM, &quot;RATS on behalf of Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rats-bounces@ietf.o=
rg</a> on behalf of <a href=3D"mailto:ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs..com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></=
p></div></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin=
-left:0.5in;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">&gt; Remote TP=
M attestations are useful and necessary the short run, but are of very limi=
ted capability. I believe that &gt; EAT will replace TPM attestations in th=
e long run (maybe decades) because they are far more expressive. I know &gt=
; others believe that too.=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in;background:white"><span style=3D=
"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoN=
ormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in;background:white"><span style=3D"font-siz=
e:12pt">I would disagree with the statement of &quot;short run&quot; ... TP=
M is practically the only existing standardised (hardware, software, firmwa=
re, measurement - x86 only etc) hardware root of trust in common use, ie: p=
ractically all x86 machines,=C2=A0 The attestation mechanisms provided are =
going to be around for a very long time.=C2=A0 </span><u></u><u></u></p></d=
iv><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in;background:white"=
><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><=
p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in;background:white"><span st=
yle=3D"font-size:12pt">From telco experience, 30 years ago we said SS7 woul=
d only be around in the short term.</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in;background:white"><span style=3D"=
font-size:12pt">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin-left:0.5in;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt"=
>&gt; Thus, I am opposed to adoption with the current TPM-only draft. I=E2=
=80=99d be OK with the current draft and a promise &gt; to add EAT to it.</=
span><u></u><u></u></p></div></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mar=
gin-left:0.5in;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0</spa=
n><u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:=
0.5in;background:white"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">Agree</span><u></u><=
u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in;back=
ground:white"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p=
></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in;background:wh=
ite"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt">Ian</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div>=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in"><span style=3D"font-size=
:12pt">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div id=3D"gmail-m_-87550677454=
59165307Signature"><div id=3D"gmail-m_-8755067745459165307divtagdefaultwrap=
per"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in"><span style=3D"font=
-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">-- <u></u><u></u>=
</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in"><span style=
=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">Dr. Ian O=
liver<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0=
.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;=
,serif">Cybersecurity Research<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNorma=
l" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&q=
uot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">Distinguished Member of Technical Staff<u>=
</u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,serif">=
Nokia Bell Labs<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mar=
gin-left:0.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;Times New R=
oman&quot;,serif">+358 50 483 6237<u></u><u></u></span></p></div><div><div>=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in"><span style=3D"font-size=
:12pt">=C2=A0</span><u></u><u></u></p></div><div style=3D"margin-left:0.5in=
"><div class=3D"MsoNormal" align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align:center"><hr=
 size=3D"1" width=3D"99%" align=3D"center"></div></div><div id=3D"gmail-m_-=
8755067745459165307divRplyFwdMsg"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-le=
ft:0.5in"><b>From:</b> Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-=
resort.com" target=3D"_blank">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Sent:</b>=
 11 November 2019 00:44<br><b>To:</b> Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">ncamwing@cisco.com</a>&g=
t;<br><b>Cc:</b> Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.frau=
nhofer.de" target=3D"_blank">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;; <a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:rats@ietf..org" target=3D"_blank">rats@ietf..org</a> &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rats@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br><b>S=
ubject:</b> Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang modu=
le draft <u></u><u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left=
:0.5in">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" sty=
le=3D"margin-left:0.5in">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><div><blockquote style=3D"=
margin-top:5pt;margin-bottom:5pt"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"marg=
in-left:0.5in">On Nov 10, 2019, at 2:20 PM, Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) &lt=
;<a href=3D"mailto:ncamwing@cisco.com" target=3D"_blank">ncamwing@cisco.com=
</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></p></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"marg=
in-left:0.5in">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D=
"margin-left:0.5in"><span style=3D"font-size:9pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans=
-serif">So, Laurence, are you still OK with the adoption of the current dra=
ft with a rename for now?<br>Thanks, Nancy</span><u></u><u></u></p></div></=
blockquote></div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">=C2=A0<=
u></u><u></u></p><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">I =
think the value add to the larger RATS effort of adding EAT support to this=
 YANG protocol is really high. It a core thing to do that helps bring toget=
her the two attestation worlds and make the TPM and EAT work here less like=
 ships in the night.<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" sty=
le=3D"margin-left:0.5in">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"Mso=
Normal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">Remote TPM attestations are useful and =
necessary the short run, but are of very limited capability. I believe that=
 EAT will replace TPM attestations in the long run (maybe decades) because =
they are far more expressive. I know others believe that too.=C2=A0<u></u><=
u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">=C2=
=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left=
:0.5in">If we don=E2=80=99t include EAT in the YANG mode it is sort of like=
 defining HTTP to only convey HTML to the exclusion of PDF. We=E2=80=99re d=
efining an attestation protocol that can only move one kind of attestation =
even though we have consensus on what the other one looks like.<u></u><u></=
u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">=C2=A0<=
u></u><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5=
in">It seems relatively simple to add EAT support (or promise to add EAT su=
pport). Pretty sure I heard Henk agree to add it.<u></u><u></u></p></div><d=
iv><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u><=
/p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">Thus, I am=
 opposed to adoption with the current TPM-only draft. I=E2=80=99d be OK wit=
h the current draft and a promise to add EAT to it.<u></u><u></u></p></div>=
<div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">=C2=A0<u></u><u></u=
></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">LL<u></u=
><u></u></p></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:0.5in">=
=C2=A0<u></u><u></u></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></=
div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;font-family:&quot;=
Times New Roman&quot;,serif"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p></div></div>___=
____________________________________________<br>
RATS mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">RATS@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"=
 class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div>Best regards,</div><di=
v>Kathleen</div></div></div></div>

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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
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From: Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net>
To: Dave Thaler <dthaler=40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, "Oliver, Ian (Nokia - FI/Espoo)" <ian.oliver@nokia-bell-labs.com>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" <ncamwing@cisco.com>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, Dave Thaler <dthaler=40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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From: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
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Subject: [Rats] Public Key Claims in JWT / CWT
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--_000_VI1PR08MB5360C0CFC1DFF09B020468B5FA4C0VI1PR08MB5360eurp_
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Hi all,

Here is some background info to the discussions today in the RATS WG meetin=
g.

With RFC 7800 we added the "cnf" claim to the JWT to contain members used t=
o identify the proof-of-possession key.
It re-uses the work done for JSON Web Key, including key ids, JWK Thumbprin=
ts, symmetric as well as asymmetric keys.
This claim has been registered with IANA at https://www.iana.org/assignment=
s/jwt/jwt.xhtml

Later, after working on CWT we created the corresponding functionality for =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ace-cwt-proof-of-possession-11.
It aims to provide functionality equivalent to RFC 7800. The spec re-uses t=
he "COSE_Key" and "Encrypted_COSE_Key" structures defined in RFC 8392.
draft-ietf-ace-cwt-proof-of-possession-11 is in the RFC Editor Queue and th=
e IANA registry value for cnf is already available in https://www.iana.org/=
assignments/cwt/cwt.xhtml

These specs are implemented and deployed.

I would be surprised if you cannot reuse this functionality in the EAT toke=
n for offering proof-of-possession functionality.

Ciao
Hannes

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi all, <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Here is some background info to the discussions toda=
y in the RATS WG meeting.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">With RFC 7800 we added the &quot;cnf&quot; claim to =
the JWT to contain members used to identify the proof-of-possession key.<o:=
p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It re-uses the work done for JSON Web Key, including=
 key ids, JWK Thumbprints, symmetric as well as asymmetric keys.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This claim has been registered with IANA at https://=
www.iana.org/assignments/jwt/jwt.xhtml
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Later, after working on CWT we created the correspon=
ding functionality for https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ace-cwt-proof=
-of-possession-11.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It aims to provide functionality equivalent to RFC 7=
800. The spec re-uses the &quot;COSE_Key&quot; and &quot;Encrypted_COSE_Key=
&quot; structures defined in RFC 8392.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">draft-ietf-ace-cwt-proof-of-possession-11 is in the =
RFC Editor Queue and the IANA registry value for cnf is already available i=
n https://www.iana.org/assignments/cwt/cwt.xhtml<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">These specs are implemented and deployed.<o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I would be surprised if you cannot reuse this functi=
onality in the EAT token for offering proof-of-possession functionality.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Ciao<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hannes<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid=
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Public Key Claims in JWT / CWT
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Thanks Hannes.

I don't know if 'cnf' semantics would actually cover something like FIDO's =
Credential ID (see https://www.w3.org/TR/webauthn/#terminology for definiti=
on), which would also be a candidate for public key attestation.  For insta=
nce, would a Cred ID be designated as a 'kid' as per the ACE PoP spec, or w=
ould there need to be a custom claim?

-Giri

From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Hannes Tschofenig
Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2019 12:28 AM
To: rats@ietf.org
Subject: [Rats] Public Key Claims in JWT / CWT


CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization.
Hi all,

Here is some background info to the discussions today in the RATS WG meetin=
g.

With RFC 7800 we added the "cnf" claim to the JWT to contain members used t=
o identify the proof-of-possession key.
It re-uses the work done for JSON Web Key, including key ids, JWK Thumbprin=
ts, symmetric as well as asymmetric keys.
This claim has been registered with IANA at https://www.iana.org/assignment=
s/jwt/jwt.xhtml

Later, after working on CWT we created the corresponding functionality for =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ace-cwt-proof-of-possession-11.
It aims to provide functionality equivalent to RFC 7800. The spec re-uses t=
he "COSE_Key" and "Encrypted_COSE_Key" structures defined in RFC 8392.
draft-ietf-ace-cwt-proof-of-possession-11 is in the RFC Editor Queue and th=
e IANA registry value for cnf is already available in https://www.iana.org/=
assignments/cwt/cwt.xhtml

These specs are implemented and deployed.

I would be surprised if you cannot reuse this functionality in the EAT toke=
n for offering proof-of-possession functionality.

Ciao
Hannes

IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid=
ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p=
lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any=
 other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in =
any medium. Thank you.

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<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Thanks Hannes.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I don&#8217;t know if &#8216;cnf&#8217; semantics wo=
uld actually cover something like FIDO&#8217;s Credential ID (see
<a href=3D"https://www.w3.org/TR/webauthn/#terminology">https://www.w3.org/=
TR/webauthn/#terminology</a> for definition), which would also be a candida=
te for public key attestation.&nbsp; For instance, would a Cred ID be desig=
nated as a &#8216;kid&#8217; as per the ACE PoP spec,
 or would there need to be a custom claim?<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">-Giri<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in =
0in 0in">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> RATS &lt;rats-bounces@ietf.org&gt; <b>O=
n Behalf Of </b>
Hannes Tschofenig<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, November 19, 2019 12:28 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> rats@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Rats] Public Key Claims in JWT / CWT<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p><strong><span style=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,san=
s-serif;color:black;background:#FFEB9C">CAUTION</span></strong><span style=
=3D"font-size:8.5pt;font-family:&quot;Arial&quot;,sans-serif;color:black;ba=
ckground:#FFEB9C">: This email originated from outside of
 the organization.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hi all, <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Here is some background info to the discussions toda=
y in the RATS WG meeting.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">With RFC 7800 we added the &quot;cnf&quot; claim to =
the JWT to contain members used to identify the proof-of-possession key.<o:=
p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It re-uses the work done for JSON Web Key, including=
 key ids, JWK Thumbprints, symmetric as well as asymmetric keys.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">This claim has been registered with IANA at <a href=
=3D"https://www.iana.org/assignments/jwt/jwt.xhtml">
https://www.iana.org/assignments/jwt/jwt.xhtml</a> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Later, after working on CWT we created the correspon=
ding functionality for
<a href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ace-cwt-proof-of-possessi=
on-11">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ace-cwt-proof-of-possession-1=
1</a>.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">It aims to provide functionality equivalent to RFC 7=
800. The spec re-uses the &quot;COSE_Key&quot; and &quot;Encrypted_COSE_Key=
&quot; structures defined in RFC 8392.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">draft-ietf-ace-cwt-proof-of-possession-11 is in the =
RFC Editor Queue and the IANA registry value for cnf is already available i=
n
<a href=3D"https://www.iana.org/assignments/cwt/cwt.xhtml">https://www.iana=
.org/assignments/cwt/cwt.xhtml</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">These specs are implemented and deployed.<o:p></o:p>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">I would be surprised if you cannot reuse this functi=
onality in the EAT token for offering proof-of-possession functionality.
<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Ciao<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Hannes<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any=
 attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not th=
e intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not discl=
ose the contents to any other person,
 use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Th=
ank you.
<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From nobody Tue Nov 19 05:20:56 2019
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From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
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Cc: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
To: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Public Key Claims in JWT / CWT
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Aware of these and wouldn=E2=80=99t think of doing it any other way, but =
I think we need a little glue, like IANA registrations at a minimum.

If we want augment this stuff that already exists with things like key =
ID and key usage like the Android key store has, then we=E2=80=99ll need =
to do more. I don=E2=80=99t have a strong opinion on how far we go yet.

Probably the combo of COSE_Key + proof-of-possesion gives us a =
CBOR-based CSR, but I=E2=80=99m not quite sure if that covers the use =
case(s) unless we think it through.=20

Also, someone might actually want a true PKCS10 for compatibility =
reasons.

I think including pub keys also begs questions about the attestation =
context Giri has brought up.

LL






> On Nov 19, 2019, at 4:28 PM, Hannes Tschofenig =
<Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hi all,=20
> =20
> Here is some background info to the discussions today in the RATS WG =
meeting.
> =20
> With RFC 7800 we added the "cnf" claim to the JWT to contain members =
used to identify the proof-of-possession key.
> It re-uses the work done for JSON Web Key, including key ids, JWK =
Thumbprints, symmetric as well as asymmetric keys.
> This claim has been registered with IANA at =
https://www.iana.org/assignments/jwt/jwt.xhtml =
<https://www.iana.org/assignments/jwt/jwt.xhtml>
> =20
> Later, after working on CWT we created the corresponding functionality =
for =
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ace-cwt-proof-of-possession-11 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ace-cwt-proof-of-possession-11>.
> It aims to provide functionality equivalent to RFC 7800. The spec =
re-uses the "COSE_Key" and "Encrypted_COSE_Key" structures defined in =
RFC 8392.
> draft-ietf-ace-cwt-proof-of-possession-11 is in the RFC Editor Queue =
and the IANA registry value for cnf is already available in =
https://www.iana.org/assignments/cwt/cwt.xhtml =
<https://www.iana.org/assignments/cwt/cwt.xhtml>
> =20
> These specs are implemented and deployed.
> =20
> I would be surprised if you cannot reuse this functionality in the EAT =
token for offering proof-of-possession functionality.
> =20
> Ciao
> Hannes
> =20
> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are =
confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended =
recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the =
contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy =
the information in any medium. Thank you. =
_______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats>

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Aware=
 of these and wouldn=E2=80=99t think of doing it any other way, but I =
think we need a little glue, like IANA registrations at a minimum.<div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">If we want augment this =
stuff that already exists with things like key ID and key usage like the =
Android key store has, then we=E2=80=99ll need to do more. I don=E2=80=99t=
 have a strong opinion on how far we go yet.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Probably the combo of COSE_Key + =
proof-of-possesion gives us a CBOR-based CSR, but I=E2=80=99m not quite =
sure if that covers the use case(s) unless we think it =
through.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Also, someone might actually want a true PKCS10 for =
compatibility reasons.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">I think including pub keys also begs questions about the =
attestation context Giri has brought up.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div=
 class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div=
 class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Nov 19, 2019, at 4:28 PM, Hannes =
Tschofenig &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com" =
class=3D"">Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Hi =
all,<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Here is =
some background info to the discussions today in the RATS WG =
meeting.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">With RFC 7800 we added the "cnf" claim to the JWT to contain =
members used to identify the proof-of-possession key.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">It =
re-uses the work done for JSON Web Key, including key ids, JWK =
Thumbprints, symmetric as well as asymmetric keys.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">This =
claim has been registered with IANA at<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://www.iana.org/assignments/jwt/jwt.xhtml" style=3D"color: =
rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://www.iana.org/assignments/jwt/jwt.xhtml</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Later, =
after working on CWT we created the corresponding functionality for<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ace-cwt-proof-of-possession=
-11" style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ace-cwt-proof-of-possess=
ion-11</a>.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">It aims to provide functionality equivalent to RFC 7800. The =
spec re-uses the "COSE_Key" and "Encrypted_COSE_Key" structures defined =
in RFC 8392.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">draft-ietf-ace-cwt-proof-of-possession-11 is in the RFC =
Editor Queue and the IANA registry value for cnf is already available =
in<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://www.iana.org/assignments/cwt/cwt.xhtml" style=3D"color: =
rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://www.iana.org/assignments/cwt/cwt.xhtml</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">These =
specs are implemented and deployed.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I would be surprised if you cannot =
reuse this functionality in the EAT token for offering =
proof-of-possession functionality.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Ciao<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Hannes<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
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normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any =
attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not =
the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not =
disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or =
store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you. =
_______________________________________________</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
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text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">RATS mailing list</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
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class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats</a></div></blockquot=
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From nobody Tue Nov 19 05:26:06 2019
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Subject: [Rats] Two types of secure attestation
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Fundamentally, I think there are two ways that an attestation verifier =
comes to know that a device / entity is running approved SW and will =
behave as desired.

TPM based
Originates in the PC world where the end user had to be able to choose =
the system SW
Has a TPM that performs a general measuring function
Has an attestation signing key for signing measurements that is kept =
secret by the TPM
TPM is generic as it can be used for PC=E2=80=99s, routers, IoT devices
Authenticated boot is optional
Uses a staged boot architecture where each stage must measure (hash) the =
following stage
Hashes fed into the TPM
TPM generates the attestation of the registers holding the hashes
Device cost raised by cost of TPM part
The verifier must run a parallel set of measurements (hashes)
Verifier is complex

Authenticated Boot based
Origins in mobile phone, TEE and DRM world where the user can NOT choose =
the system SW
Authenticated boot is required
Uses a boot ROM that really is a ROM, probably in silicon (not flash), =
that can NOT be changed
Boot ROM verifies the SW that is loaded, particular the top privilege =
(e.g. kernel) SW
A good implementation has anti-rollback to prevent old versions of SW =
from being run
Has an attestation signing key that is programmed in fuses or possibly =
in flash
Has a HW block that prevents access to the attestation key unless =
authenticated boot succeeds
Only top privilege SW can use it
Attestations are created in the top-privilege SW
Simply signing a nonce proves the device is running approved SW
Easy to add other claims in =E2=80=94> EAT
Device cost raised by need for secure key provisioning in the factory
Verifier is very simple
Just needs to verify the signature and nonce

Both provide acceptable security for their use cases and are broadly in =
use.

RATS needs to support both.

LL=

--Apple-Mail=_8D48C109-F8FB-48F7-A318-19FB57AFB4BE
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Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Fundamentally, I think there are two ways that an attestation =
verifier comes to know that a device / entity is running approved SW and =
will behave as desired.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">TPM based</b></div><div class=3D""><ul =
class=3D"MailOutline"><li class=3D"">Originates in the PC world where =
the end user had to be able to choose the system SW</li><li class=3D"">Has=
 a TPM that performs a general measuring function</li><ul class=3D""><li =
class=3D"">Has an attestation signing key for signing measurements that =
is kept secret by the TPM</li><li class=3D"">TPM is generic as it can be =
used for PC=E2=80=99s, routers, IoT devices</li></ul><li =
class=3D"">Authenticated boot is optional</li><li class=3D"">Uses a =
staged boot architecture where each stage must measure (hash) the =
following stage</li><ul class=3D""><li class=3D"">Hashes fed into the =
TPM</li><li class=3D"">TPM generates the attestation of the registers =
holding the hashes</li></ul><li class=3D"">Device cost raised by cost of =
TPM part</li><li class=3D"">The verifier must run a parallel set of =
measurements (hashes)</li><ul class=3D""><li class=3D"">Verifier is =
complex</li></ul></ul><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><div =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Authenticated Boot based</b></div><div =
class=3D""><ul class=3D"MailOutline"><li class=3D"">Origins in mobile =
phone, TEE and DRM world where the user can NOT choose the system =
SW</li><li class=3D"">Authenticated boot is required</li><ul =
class=3D""><li class=3D"">Uses a boot ROM that really is a ROM, probably =
in silicon (not flash), that can NOT be changed</li><li class=3D"">Boot =
ROM verifies the SW that is loaded, particular the top privilege (e.g. =
kernel) SW</li><li class=3D"">A good implementation has anti-rollback to =
prevent old versions of SW from being run</li></ul><li class=3D"">Has an =
attestation signing key that is programmed in fuses or possibly in =
flash</li><ul class=3D""><li class=3D"">Has a HW block that prevents =
access to the attestation key unless authenticated boot succeeds</li><li =
class=3D"">Only top privilege SW can use it</li></ul><li =
class=3D"">Attestations are created in the top-privilege SW</li><ul =
class=3D""><li class=3D"">Simply signing a nonce proves the device is =
running approved SW</li><li class=3D"">Easy to add other claims in =
=E2=80=94&gt; EAT</li></ul><li class=3D"">Device cost raised by need for =
secure key provisioning in the factory</li><li class=3D"">Verifier is =
very simple</li><ul class=3D""><li class=3D"">Just needs to verify the =
signature and nonce</li></ul></ul><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D"">Both provide acceptable security =
for their use cases and are broadly in use.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">RATS needs to support both.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">LL</div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_8D48C109-F8FB-48F7-A318-19FB57AFB4BE--


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From: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 09:35:23 -0500
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To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Two types of secure attestation
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Hi Laurence,

Where does the code signing example fit in that you gave as it's not really
an attestation, but could be useful in the format of an EAT/CWT?   This
questions considers the CoSWID discussion as well as another example you
had in your slides later (which was really the same) on just validating the
code was signed by the expected private key?  Should that be called an
attestation or just using the format for signing?  You might add claims
in above what's in the CoSWID and use the nesting of EAT/subdomains as well
as perform remote verification.

Thanks,
Kathleen

On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 8:26 AM Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
wrote:

> Fundamentally, I think there are two ways that an attestation verifier
> comes to know that a device / entity is running approved SW and will beha=
ve
> as desired.
>
> *TPM based*
>
>    - Originates in the PC world where the end user had to be able to
>    choose the system SW
>    - Has a TPM that performs a general measuring function
>       - Has an attestation signing key for signing measurements that is
>       kept secret by the TPM
>       - TPM is generic as it can be used for PC=E2=80=99s, routers, IoT d=
evices
>    - Authenticated boot is optional
>    - Uses a staged boot architecture where each stage must measure (hash)
>    the following stage
>       - Hashes fed into the TPM
>       - TPM generates the attestation of the registers holding the hashes
>    - Device cost raised by cost of TPM part
>    - The verifier must run a parallel set of measurements (hashes)
>       - Verifier is complex
>
>
> *Authenticated Boot based*
>
>    - Origins in mobile phone, TEE and DRM world where the user can NOT
>    choose the system SW
>    - Authenticated boot is required
>       - Uses a boot ROM that really is a ROM, probably in silicon (not
>       flash), that can NOT be changed
>       - Boot ROM verifies the SW that is loaded, particular the top
>       privilege (e.g. kernel) SW
>       - A good implementation has anti-rollback to prevent old versions
>       of SW from being run
>    - Has an attestation signing key that is programmed in fuses or
>    possibly in flash
>       - Has a HW block that prevents access to the attestation key unless
>       authenticated boot succeeds
>       - Only top privilege SW can use it
>    - Attestations are created in the top-privilege SW
>       - Simply signing a nonce proves the device is running approved SW
>       - Easy to add other claims in =E2=80=94> EAT
>    - Device cost raised by need for secure key provisioning in the factor=
y
>    - Verifier is very simple
>       - Just needs to verify the signature and nonce
>
>
> Both provide acceptable security for their use cases and are broadly in
> use.
>
> RATS needs to support both.
>
> LL
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>


--=20

Best regards,
Kathleen

--0000000000009f02890597b3fb0a
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Laurence,<div><br></div><div>Where does the code signin=
g example fit in that you gave as it&#39;s not really an attestation, but c=
ould be useful in the format of an EAT/CWT?=C2=A0 =C2=A0This questions cons=
iders the CoSWID discussion as well as another example you had in your slid=
es later (which was really the same) on just validating the code was signed=
 by the expected private key?=C2=A0 Should that be called an attestation or=
 just using the format for signing?=C2=A0 You might add claims in=C2=A0abov=
e=C2=A0what&#39;s in the CoSWID and use the nesting of EAT/subdomains as we=
ll as perform remote verification.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><d=
iv>Kathleen</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" clas=
s=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 8:26 AM Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt; wrote:<=
br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8e=
x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"ov=
erflow-wrap: break-word;">Fundamentally, I think there are two ways that an=
 attestation verifier comes to know that a device / entity is running appro=
ved SW and will behave as desired.<div><br></div><div><b>TPM based</b></div=
><div><ul><li>Originates in the PC world where the end user had to be able =
to choose the system SW</li><li>Has a TPM that performs a general measuring=
 function</li><ul><li>Has an attestation signing key for signing measuremen=
ts that is kept secret by the TPM</li><li>TPM is generic as it can be used =
for PC=E2=80=99s, routers, IoT devices</li></ul><li>Authenticated boot is o=
ptional</li><li>Uses a staged boot architecture where each stage must measu=
re (hash) the following stage</li><ul><li>Hashes fed into the TPM</li><li>T=
PM generates the attestation of the registers holding the hashes</li></ul><=
li>Device cost raised by cost of TPM part</li><li>The verifier must run a p=
arallel set of measurements (hashes)</li><ul><li>Verifier is complex</li></=
ul></ul><div><br></div></div><div><b>Authenticated Boot based</b></div><div=
><ul><li>Origins in mobile phone, TEE and DRM world where the user can NOT =
choose the system SW</li><li>Authenticated boot is required</li><ul><li>Use=
s a boot ROM that really is a ROM, probably in silicon (not flash), that ca=
n NOT be changed</li><li>Boot ROM verifies the SW that is loaded, particula=
r the top privilege (e.g. kernel) SW</li><li>A good implementation has anti=
-rollback to prevent old versions of SW from being run</li></ul><li>Has an =
attestation signing key that is programmed in fuses or possibly in flash</l=
i><ul><li>Has a HW block that prevents access to the attestation key unless=
 authenticated boot succeeds</li><li>Only top privilege SW can use it</li><=
/ul><li>Attestations are created in the top-privilege SW</li><ul><li>Simply=
 signing a nonce proves the device is running approved SW</li><li>Easy to a=
dd other claims in =E2=80=94&gt; EAT</li></ul><li>Device cost raised by nee=
d for secure key provisioning in the factory</li><li>Verifier is very simpl=
e</li><ul><li>Just needs to verify the signature and nonce</li></ul></ul><d=
iv><br></div></div><div>Both provide acceptable security for their use case=
s and are broadly in use.</div><div><br></div><div>RATS needs to support bo=
th.</div><div><br></div><div>LL</div></div>________________________________=
_______________<br>
RATS mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">RATS@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"=
 class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div>Best regards,</div><di=
v>Kathleen</div></div></div>

--0000000000009f02890597b3fb0a--


From nobody Tue Nov 19 07:25:13 2019
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To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, rats@ietf.org
References: <B099349B-711D-4A11-9E58-0886307FB7AF@island-resort.com>
From: Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Two types of secure attestation
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On 2019-11-19 14:26, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
> Fundamentally, I think there are two ways that an attestation verifier comes to know that a device / entity is running approved SW and will behave as desired.

Yes, it seems that the IETF activity around trusted computing for unknown reasons intends ignoring the attested-session-key-scheme where sub-attestations are based on rolling MACs.
FWIW, this is one of the pillars of the Open Banking Wallet concept although it is not mentioned in this writeup:
https://github.com/cyberphone/doc/blob/gh-pages/payments/dual-mode-open-banking-api.md#background

Thanx,
Anders
https://github.com/ietf-teep/architecture/issues/52

>
> *TPM based*
>
>   * Originates in the PC world where the end user had to be able to choose the system SW
>   * Has a TPM that performs a general measuring function
>       o Has an attestation signing key for signing measurements that is kept secret by the TPM
>       o TPM is generic as it can be used for PC’s, routers, IoT devices
>   * Authenticated boot is optional
>   * Uses a staged boot architecture where each stage must measure (hash) the following stage
>       o Hashes fed into the TPM
>       o TPM generates the attestation of the registers holding the hashes
>   * Device cost raised by cost of TPM part
>   * The verifier must run a parallel set of measurements (hashes)
>       o Verifier is complex
>
>
> *Authenticated Boot based*
>
>   * Origins in mobile phone, TEE and DRM world where the user can NOT choose the system SW
>   * Authenticated boot is required
>       o Uses a boot ROM that really is a ROM, probably in silicon (not flash), that can NOT be changed
>       o Boot ROM verifies the SW that is loaded, particular the top privilege (e.g. kernel) SW
>       o A good implementation has anti-rollback to prevent old versions of SW from being run
>   * Has an attestation signing key that is programmed in fuses or possibly in flash
>       o Has a HW block that prevents access to the attestation key unless authenticated boot succeeds
>       o Only top privilege SW can use it
>   * Attestations are created in the top-privilege SW
>       o Simply signing a nonce proves the device is running approved SW
>       o Easy to add other claims in —> EAT
>   * Device cost raised by need for secure key provisioning in the factory
>   * Verifier is very simple
>       o Just needs to verify the signature and nonce
>
>
> Both provide acceptable security for their use cases and are broadly in use.
>
> RATS needs to support both.
>
> LL
>
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats


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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2019-11-19 14:26, Laurence Lundblade
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:B099349B-711D-4A11-9E58-0886307FB7AF@island-resort.com">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
      Fundamentally, I think there are two ways that an attestation
      verifier comes to know that a device / entity is running approved
      SW and will behave as desired.</blockquote>
    <br>
    Yes, it seems that the IETF activity around trusted computing for
    unknown reasons intends ignoring the attested-session-key-scheme
    where sub-attestations are based on rolling MACs.<br>
    FWIW, this is one of the pillars of the Open Banking Wallet concept
    although it is not mentioned in this writeup:<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://github.com/cyberphone/doc/blob/gh-pages/payments/dual-mode-open-banking-api.md#background">https://github.com/cyberphone/doc/blob/gh-pages/payments/dual-mode-open-banking-api.md#background</a><br>
    <br>
    Thanx,<br>
    Anders<br>
    <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://github.com/ietf-teep/architecture/issues/52">https://github.com/ietf-teep/architecture/issues/52</a><br>
    <br>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:B099349B-711D-4A11-9E58-0886307FB7AF@island-resort.com">
      <div class=""><br class="">
      </div>
      <div class=""><b class="">TPM based</b></div>
      <div class="">
        <ul class="MailOutline">
          <li class="">Originates in the PC world where the end user had
            to be able to choose the system SW</li>
          <li class="">Has a TPM that performs a general measuring
            function</li>
          <ul class="">
            <li class="">Has an attestation signing key for signing
              measurements that is kept secret by the TPM</li>
            <li class="">TPM is generic as it can be used for PC’s,
              routers, IoT devices</li>
          </ul>
          <li class="">Authenticated boot is optional</li>
          <li class="">Uses a staged boot architecture where each stage
            must measure (hash) the following stage</li>
          <ul class="">
            <li class="">Hashes fed into the TPM</li>
            <li class="">TPM generates the attestation of the registers
              holding the hashes</li>
          </ul>
          <li class="">Device cost raised by cost of TPM part</li>
          <li class="">The verifier must run a parallel set of
            measurements (hashes)</li>
          <ul class="">
            <li class="">Verifier is complex</li>
          </ul>
        </ul>
        <div class=""><br class="">
        </div>
      </div>
      <div class=""><b class="">Authenticated Boot based</b></div>
      <div class="">
        <ul class="MailOutline">
          <li class="">Origins in mobile phone, TEE and DRM world where
            the user can NOT choose the system SW</li>
          <li class="">Authenticated boot is required</li>
          <ul class="">
            <li class="">Uses a boot ROM that really is a ROM, probably
              in silicon (not flash), that can NOT be changed</li>
            <li class="">Boot ROM verifies the SW that is loaded,
              particular the top privilege (e.g. kernel) SW</li>
            <li class="">A good implementation has anti-rollback to
              prevent old versions of SW from being run</li>
          </ul>
          <li class="">Has an attestation signing key that is programmed
            in fuses or possibly in flash</li>
          <ul class="">
            <li class="">Has a HW block that prevents access to the
              attestation key unless authenticated boot succeeds</li>
            <li class="">Only top privilege SW can use it</li>
          </ul>
          <li class="">Attestations are created in the top-privilege SW</li>
          <ul class="">
            <li class="">Simply signing a nonce proves the device is
              running approved SW</li>
            <li class="">Easy to add other claims in —&gt; EAT</li>
          </ul>
          <li class="">Device cost raised by need for secure key
            provisioning in the factory</li>
          <li class="">Verifier is very simple</li>
          <ul class="">
            <li class="">Just needs to verify the signature and nonce</li>
          </ul>
        </ul>
        <div class=""><br class="">
        </div>
      </div>
      <div class="">Both provide acceptable security for their use cases
        and are broadly in use.</div>
      <div class=""><br class="">
      </div>
      <div class="">RATS needs to support both.</div>
      <div class=""><br class="">
      </div>
      <div class="">LL</div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
RATS mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:RATS@ietf.org">RATS@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

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To: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Two types of secure attestation
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Hi Kathleen,

Not sure I=E2=80=99m following your thought completely.=20

=46rom what I know of Authenticated Boot, the code signing formats are =
usually proprietary and idiosyncratic. The first stages of it are likely =
in true ROM (chip metal layer) and can be very architecture and system =
specific and would not use CoSWID or EAT.=20

My comments below are about getting a system booted up to state where it =
known to behave as desired.

Once it is up then signed CoSWIDs in EATs would come into play. They can =
be trusted because the attester and system SW known to have booted up =
correctly. Knowing who signed some SW listed in a CoSWID is only of =
value if you know the system SW did signature checking when it loaded =
the SW it listed. For example, everyone knows how Android app signing =
works, so listing the signer of an Android app is good useful =
information.

Hope that makes sense in relation to your comment.

LL


> On Nov 19, 2019, at 10:35 PM, Kathleen Moriarty =
<kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Laurence,
>=20
> Where does the code signing example fit in that you gave as it's not =
really an attestation, but could be useful in the format of an EAT/CWT?  =
 This questions considers the CoSWID discussion as well as another =
example you had in your slides later (which was really the same) on just =
validating the code was signed by the expected private key?  Should that =
be called an attestation or just using the format for signing?  You =
might add claims in above what's in the CoSWID and use the nesting of =
EAT/subdomains as well as perform remote verification.
>=20
> Thanks,
> Kathleen
>=20
> On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 8:26 AM Laurence Lundblade =
<lgl@island-resort.com <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>> wrote:
> Fundamentally, I think there are two ways that an attestation verifier =
comes to know that a device / entity is running approved SW and will =
behave as desired.
>=20
> TPM based
> Originates in the PC world where the end user had to be able to choose =
the system SW
> Has a TPM that performs a general measuring function
> Has an attestation signing key for signing measurements that is kept =
secret by the TPM
> TPM is generic as it can be used for PC=E2=80=99s, routers, IoT =
devices
> Authenticated boot is optional
> Uses a staged boot architecture where each stage must measure (hash) =
the following stage
> Hashes fed into the TPM
> TPM generates the attestation of the registers holding the hashes
> Device cost raised by cost of TPM part
> The verifier must run a parallel set of measurements (hashes)
> Verifier is complex
>=20
> Authenticated Boot based
> Origins in mobile phone, TEE and DRM world where the user can NOT =
choose the system SW
> Authenticated boot is required
> Uses a boot ROM that really is a ROM, probably in silicon (not flash), =
that can NOT be changed
> Boot ROM verifies the SW that is loaded, particular the top privilege =
(e.g. kernel) SW
> A good implementation has anti-rollback to prevent old versions of SW =
from being run
> Has an attestation signing key that is programmed in fuses or possibly =
in flash
> Has a HW block that prevents access to the attestation key unless =
authenticated boot succeeds
> Only top privilege SW can use it
> Attestations are created in the top-privilege SW
> Simply signing a nonce proves the device is running approved SW
> Easy to add other claims in =E2=80=94> EAT
> Device cost raised by need for secure key provisioning in the factory
> Verifier is very simple
> Just needs to verify the signature and nonce
>=20
> Both provide acceptable security for their use cases and are broadly =
in use.
>=20
> RATS needs to support both.
>=20
> LL
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats>
>=20
>=20
> --=20
>=20
> Best regards,
> Kathleen
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Hi =
Kathleen,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Not sure =
I=E2=80=99m following your thought completely.&nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div>=46rom what I know =
of Authenticated Boot, the code signing formats are usually proprietary =
and idiosyncratic. The first stages of it are likely in true ROM (chip =
metal layer) and can be very architecture and system specific and would =
not use CoSWID or EAT.&nbsp;</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>My =
comments below are about getting a system booted up to state where it =
known to behave as desired.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Once it =
is up then signed CoSWIDs in EATs would come into play. They can be =
trusted because the attester and system SW known to have booted up =
correctly. Knowing who signed some SW listed in a CoSWID is only of =
value if you know the system SW did signature checking when it loaded =
the SW it listed. For example, everyone knows how Android app signing =
works, so listing the signer of an Android app is good useful =
information.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Hope that makes sense =
in relation to your comment.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>LL</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Nov =
19, 2019, at 10:35 PM, Kathleen Moriarty &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"">Hi Laurence,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Where does the code signing example fit in that you gave as =
it's not really an attestation, but could be useful in the format of an =
EAT/CWT?&nbsp; &nbsp;This questions considers the CoSWID discussion as =
well as another example you had in your slides later (which was really =
the same) on just validating the code was signed by the expected private =
key?&nbsp; Should that be called an attestation or just using the format =
for signing?&nbsp; You might add claims in&nbsp;above&nbsp;what's in the =
CoSWID and use the nesting of EAT/subdomains as well as perform remote =
verification.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Thanks,</div><div class=3D"">Kathleen</div></div><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 8:26 AM Laurence Lundblade =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" =
class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px =
0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid =
rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: =
break-word;" class=3D"">Fundamentally, I think there are two ways that =
an attestation verifier comes to know that a device / entity is running =
approved SW and will behave as desired.<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><b class=3D"">TPM based</b></div><div =
class=3D""><ul class=3D""><li class=3D"">Originates in the PC world =
where the end user had to be able to choose the system SW</li><li =
class=3D"">Has a TPM that performs a general measuring function</li><ul =
class=3D""><li class=3D"">Has an attestation signing key for signing =
measurements that is kept secret by the TPM</li><li class=3D"">TPM is =
generic as it can be used for PC=E2=80=99s, routers, IoT =
devices</li></ul><li class=3D"">Authenticated boot is optional</li><li =
class=3D"">Uses a staged boot architecture where each stage must measure =
(hash) the following stage</li><ul class=3D""><li class=3D"">Hashes fed =
into the TPM</li><li class=3D"">TPM generates the attestation of the =
registers holding the hashes</li></ul><li class=3D"">Device cost raised =
by cost of TPM part</li><li class=3D"">The verifier must run a parallel =
set of measurements (hashes)</li><ul class=3D""><li class=3D"">Verifier =
is complex</li></ul></ul><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><div =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Authenticated Boot based</b></div><div =
class=3D""><ul class=3D""><li class=3D"">Origins in mobile phone, TEE =
and DRM world where the user can NOT choose the system SW</li><li =
class=3D"">Authenticated boot is required</li><ul class=3D""><li =
class=3D"">Uses a boot ROM that really is a ROM, probably in silicon =
(not flash), that can NOT be changed</li><li class=3D"">Boot ROM =
verifies the SW that is loaded, particular the top privilege (e.g. =
kernel) SW</li><li class=3D"">A good implementation has anti-rollback to =
prevent old versions of SW from being run</li></ul><li class=3D"">Has an =
attestation signing key that is programmed in fuses or possibly in =
flash</li><ul class=3D""><li class=3D"">Has a HW block that prevents =
access to the attestation key unless authenticated boot succeeds</li><li =
class=3D"">Only top privilege SW can use it</li></ul><li =
class=3D"">Attestations are created in the top-privilege SW</li><ul =
class=3D""><li class=3D"">Simply signing a nonce proves the device is =
running approved SW</li><li class=3D"">Easy to add other claims in =
=E2=80=94&gt; EAT</li></ul><li class=3D"">Device cost raised by need for =
secure key provisioning in the factory</li><li class=3D"">Verifier is =
very simple</li><ul class=3D""><li class=3D"">Just needs to verify the =
signature and nonce</li></ul></ul><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D"">Both provide acceptable security =
for their use cases and are broadly in use.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">RATS needs to support both.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">LL</div></div>_______________________________________________<b=
r class=3D"">
RATS mailing list<br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">RATS@ietf.org</a><br class=3D"">
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats" rel=3D"noreferrer" =
target=3D"_blank" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats</a><br class=3D"">
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div>-- <br class=3D""><div dir=3D"ltr" =
class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D""><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Best regards,</div><div class=3D"">Kathleen</div></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br class=3D"">RATS =
mailing list<br class=3D""><a href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">RATS@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats<br =
class=3D""></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2019 20:59:33 -0500
Message-ID: <CAHbuEH4R4GZQCq9E1Nza8uPC=jxiM-FkV4tMrv9B==GsjvCLtw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
Cc: rats@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Two types of secure attestation
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Hi Laurence,

I read your message as there only being 2 types of attestation as opposed
to what you stated in your follow on email, which better maps to the
restricted set in your first message.

Thanks,
Kathleen

On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 8:07 PM Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
wrote:

> Hi Kathleen,
>
> Not sure I=E2=80=99m following your thought completely.
>
> From what I know of Authenticated Boot, the code signing formats are
> usually proprietary and idiosyncratic. The first stages of it are likely =
in
> true ROM (chip metal layer) and can be very architecture and system
> specific and would not use CoSWID or EAT.
>
> My comments below are about getting a system booted up to state where it
> known to behave as desired.
>
> Once it is up then signed CoSWIDs in EATs would come into play. They can
> be trusted because the attester and system SW known to have booted up
> correctly. Knowing who signed some SW listed in a CoSWID is only of value
> if you know the system SW did signature checking when it loaded the SW it
> listed. For example, everyone knows how Android app signing works, so
> listing the signer of an Android app is good useful information.
>
> Hope that makes sense in relation to your comment.
>
> LL
>
>
> On Nov 19, 2019, at 10:35 PM, Kathleen Moriarty <
> kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Laurence,
>
> Where does the code signing example fit in that you gave as it's not
> really an attestation, but could be useful in the format of an EAT/CWT?
>  This questions considers the CoSWID discussion as well as another exampl=
e
> you had in your slides later (which was really the same) on just validati=
ng
> the code was signed by the expected private key?  Should that be called a=
n
> attestation or just using the format for signing?  You might add claims
> in above what's in the CoSWID and use the nesting of EAT/subdomains as we=
ll
> as perform remote verification.
>
> Thanks,
> Kathleen
>
> On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 8:26 AM Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com=
>
> wrote:
>
>> Fundamentally, I think there are two ways that an attestation verifier
>> comes to know that a device / entity is running approved SW and will beh=
ave
>> as desired.
>>
>> *TPM based*
>>
>>    - Originates in the PC world where the end user had to be able to
>>    choose the system SW
>>    - Has a TPM that performs a general measuring function
>>       - Has an attestation signing key for signing measurements that is
>>       kept secret by the TPM
>>       - TPM is generic as it can be used for PC=E2=80=99s, routers, IoT =
devices
>>    - Authenticated boot is optional
>>    - Uses a staged boot architecture where each stage must measure
>>    (hash) the following stage
>>       - Hashes fed into the TPM
>>       - TPM generates the attestation of the registers holding the hashe=
s
>>    - Device cost raised by cost of TPM part
>>    - The verifier must run a parallel set of measurements (hashes)
>>       - Verifier is complex
>>
>>
>> *Authenticated Boot based*
>>
>>    - Origins in mobile phone, TEE and DRM world where the user can NOT
>>    choose the system SW
>>    - Authenticated boot is required
>>       - Uses a boot ROM that really is a ROM, probably in silicon (not
>>       flash), that can NOT be changed
>>       - Boot ROM verifies the SW that is loaded, particular the top
>>       privilege (e.g. kernel) SW
>>       - A good implementation has anti-rollback to prevent old versions
>>       of SW from being run
>>    - Has an attestation signing key that is programmed in fuses or
>>    possibly in flash
>>       - Has a HW block that prevents access to the attestation key
>>       unless authenticated boot succeeds
>>       - Only top privilege SW can use it
>>    - Attestations are created in the top-privilege SW
>>       - Simply signing a nonce proves the device is running approved SW
>>       - Easy to add other claims in =E2=80=94> EAT
>>    - Device cost raised by need for secure key provisioning in the
>>    factory
>>    - Verifier is very simple
>>       - Just needs to verify the signature and nonce
>>
>>
>> Both provide acceptable security for their use cases and are broadly in
>> use.
>>
>> RATS needs to support both.
>>
>> LL
>> _______________________________________________
>> RATS mailing list
>> RATS@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>>
>
>
> --
>
> Best regards,
> Kathleen
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>
>
>

--=20

Best regards,
Kathleen

--0000000000006b9e260597bd8a8f
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Laurence,<div><br></div><div>I read your message as the=
re only being=C2=A02 types of attestation as opposed to what you stated in =
your follow on email, which=C2=A0better maps to the restricted set in your =
first message.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Kathleen</div></d=
iv><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On =
Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 8:07 PM Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lgl@i=
sland-resort.com">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px so=
lid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-w=
ord;">Hi Kathleen,<div><br></div><div>Not sure I=E2=80=99m following your t=
hought completely.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div><div>From what I know of =
Authenticated Boot, the code signing formats are usually proprietary and id=
iosyncratic. The first stages of it are likely in true ROM (chip metal laye=
r) and can be very architecture and system specific and would not use CoSWI=
D or EAT.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>My comments below are about gettin=
g a system booted up to state where it known to behave as desired.</div><di=
v><br></div><div>Once it is up then signed CoSWIDs in EATs would come into =
play. They can be trusted because the attester and system SW known to have =
booted up correctly. Knowing who signed some SW listed in a CoSWID is only =
of value if you know the system SW did signature checking when it loaded th=
e SW it listed. For example, everyone knows how Android app signing works, =
so listing the signer of an Android app is good useful information.</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>Hope that makes sense in relation to your comment.</div><=
div><br></div><div>LL</div><div><br></div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite=
"><div>On Nov 19, 2019, at 10:35 PM, Kathleen Moriarty &lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">kathleen.moriarty.iet=
f@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br><div><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Laurence,<div>=
<br></div><div>Where does the code signing example fit in that you gave as =
it&#39;s not really an attestation, but could be useful in the format of an=
 EAT/CWT?=C2=A0 =C2=A0This questions considers the CoSWID discussion as wel=
l as another example you had in your slides later (which was really the sam=
e) on just validating the code was signed by the expected private key?=C2=
=A0 Should that be called an attestation or just using the format for signi=
ng?=C2=A0 You might add claims in=C2=A0above=C2=A0what&#39;s in the CoSWID =
and use the nesting of EAT/subdomains as well as perform remote verificatio=
n.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div>Kathleen</div></div><br><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Nov 19,=
 2019 at 8:26 AM Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort=
.com" target=3D"_blank">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:=
1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>Fundamentally, I think th=
ere are two ways that an attestation verifier comes to know that a device /=
 entity is running approved SW and will behave as desired.<div><br></div><d=
iv><b>TPM based</b></div><div><ul><li>Originates in the PC world where the =
end user had to be able to choose the system SW</li><li>Has a TPM that perf=
orms a general measuring function</li><ul><li>Has an attestation signing ke=
y for signing measurements that is kept secret by the TPM</li><li>TPM is ge=
neric as it can be used for PC=E2=80=99s, routers, IoT devices</li></ul><li=
>Authenticated boot is optional</li><li>Uses a staged boot architecture whe=
re each stage must measure (hash) the following stage</li><ul><li>Hashes fe=
d into the TPM</li><li>TPM generates the attestation of the registers holdi=
ng the hashes</li></ul><li>Device cost raised by cost of TPM part</li><li>T=
he verifier must run a parallel set of measurements (hashes)</li><ul><li>Ve=
rifier is complex</li></ul></ul><div><br></div></div><div><b>Authenticated =
Boot based</b></div><div><ul><li>Origins in mobile phone, TEE and DRM world=
 where the user can NOT choose the system SW</li><li>Authenticated boot is =
required</li><ul><li>Uses a boot ROM that really is a ROM, probably in sili=
con (not flash), that can NOT be changed</li><li>Boot ROM verifies the SW t=
hat is loaded, particular the top privilege (e.g. kernel) SW</li><li>A good=
 implementation has anti-rollback to prevent old versions of SW from being =
run</li></ul><li>Has an attestation signing key that is programmed in fuses=
 or possibly in flash</li><ul><li>Has a HW block that prevents access to th=
e attestation key unless authenticated boot succeeds</li><li>Only top privi=
lege SW can use it</li></ul><li>Attestations are created in the top-privile=
ge SW</li><ul><li>Simply signing a nonce proves the device is running appro=
ved SW</li><li>Easy to add other claims in =E2=80=94&gt; EAT</li></ul><li>D=
evice cost raised by need for secure key provisioning in the factory</li><l=
i>Verifier is very simple</li><ul><li>Just needs to verify the signature an=
d nonce</li></ul></ul><div><br></div></div><div>Both provide acceptable sec=
urity for their use cases and are broadly in use.</div><div><br></div><div>=
RATS needs to support both.</div><div><br></div><div>LL</div></div>________=
_______________________________________<br>
RATS mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">RATS@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"=
><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div>Best regards,</div><div>Kathleen</div></div></di=
v>
_______________________________________________<br>RATS mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">RATS@ietf.org</a><br><a hre=
f=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats" target=3D"_blank">https://=
www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats</a><br></div></blockquote></div><br></di=
v></div></blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=
=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div>Best regards,<=
/div><div>Kathleen</div></div></div>

--0000000000006b9e260597bd8a8f--


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Subject: [Rats] FW: New Version Notification for draft-tschofenig-rats-psa-token-04.txt
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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
To: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Rats] Two types of secure attestation
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From: Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Rats] RATS architecture design team side meeting
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Subject: Re: [Rats] RATS architecture design team side meeting
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From nobody Wed Nov 20 16:35:02 2019
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Subject: [Rats] CoSWID and EAT and CWT
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Hi,

I=E2=80=99m not on the SACM list, but did look at the archive. Hopefully =
I=E2=80=99m not out of sync.

My thought is to register one claim for CWT that is an entire CoSWID (in =
CDDL the concise-swid-tag).

That way CoSWID can grow and develop on its own without lots of adds and =
subtracts to the CWT registry. It has its own IANA registry with its own =
experts and such. Seems like the coupling / factoring is about right.

This would also be the way I=E2=80=99d like to have it in EAT =
attestation. We=E2=80=99ve done a mini version of this with the location =
claim <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rats-eat-01#section-3.8>.

Then if you just want to sign a CoSWID CWT style, this works pretty well =
too. It has a slight overhead compared to having all the CoSWID data =
items as direct CWT claims in that it will have an additional map layer, =
but that is only about three bytes.

LL


--Apple-Mail=_84C47E89-9D40-47FF-8873-6668659E3810
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D"">Hi,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I=E2=80=
=99m not on the SACM list, but did look at the archive. Hopefully I=E2=80=99=
m not out of sync.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">My thought is to register one claim for CWT that is an entire =
CoSWID (in CDDL the&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-size: =
13.333333015441895px;" class=3D""><font face=3D"Courier" =
class=3D"">concise-swid-tag)</font></span>.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">That way CoSWID can grow and develop on =
its own without lots of adds and subtracts to the CWT registry. It has =
its own IANA registry with its own experts and such. Seems like the =
coupling / factoring is about right.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This would also be the way I=E2=80=99d =
like to have it in EAT attestation. We=E2=80=99ve done a mini version of =
this with the&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rats-eat-01#section-3.8" =
class=3D"">location claim</a>.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Then if you just want to sign a CoSWID =
CWT style, this works pretty well too. It has a slight overhead compared =
to having all the CoSWID data items as direct CWT claims in that it will =
have an additional map layer, but that is only about three =
bytes.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: Ira McDonald <blueroofmusic@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 20:00:28 -0500
Message-ID: <CAN40gStq_v6KEe_CiGFQSUTWMjLf4RC-1HLaQzgoCN0gcixWEg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, Ira McDonald <blueroofmusic@gmail.com>
Cc: sacm <sacm@ietf.org>, rats@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Rats] CoSWID and EAT and CWT
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Hi Laurence,

That seems like a good suggestion for a simple way to integrate CoSWID
content
into EAT.

Cheers,
- Ira

Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)
Co-Chair - TCG Trusted Mobility Solutions WG
Co-Chair - TCG Metadata Access Protocol SG
Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG
Secretary - IEEE-ISTO Printer Working Group
Co-Chair - IEEE-ISTO PWG Internet Printing Protocol WG
IETF Designated Expert - IPP & Printer MIB
Blue Roof Music / High North Inc
http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic
http://sites.google.com/site/highnorthinc
mailto: blueroofmusic@gmail.com
PO Box 221  Grand Marais, MI 49839  906-494-2434



On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 7:35 PM Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I=E2=80=99m not on the SACM list, but did look at the archive. Hopefully =
I=E2=80=99m not
> out of sync.
>
> My thought is to register one claim for CWT that is an entire CoSWID (in
> CDDL the concise-swid-tag).
>
> That way CoSWID can grow and develop on its own without lots of adds and
> subtracts to the CWT registry. It has its own IANA registry with its own
> experts and such. Seems like the coupling / factoring is about right.
>
> This would also be the way I=E2=80=99d like to have it in EAT attestation=
. We=E2=80=99ve
> done a mini version of this with the location claim
> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rats-eat-01#section-3.8>.
>
> Then if you just want to sign a CoSWID CWT style, this works pretty well
> too. It has a slight overhead compared to having all the CoSWID data item=
s
> as direct CWT claims in that it will have an additional map layer, but th=
at
> is only about three bytes.
>
> LL
>
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi Laurence,</div><div><br></div><div>That seems like=
 a good suggestion for a simple way to integrate CoSWID content</div><div>i=
nto EAT.</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div>- Ira</div><div><br></d=
iv><div><div><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"g=
mail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)<br>Co-=
Chair - TCG Trusted Mobility Solutions WG</div><div>Co-Chair - TCG Metadata=
 Access Protocol SG<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">Chair - Linux Foundation Open=
 Printing WG<br>Secretary - IEEE-ISTO Printer Working Group<br>Co-Chair - I=
EEE-ISTO PWG Internet Printing Protocol WG<br>IETF Designated Expert - IPP =
&amp; Printer MIB<br>Blue Roof Music / High North Inc<br><a style=3D"color:=
rgb(51,51,255)" href=3D"http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic" target=
=3D"_blank">http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic</a><br><a style=3D"c=
olor:rgb(102,0,204)" href=3D"http://sites.google.com/site/highnorthinc" tar=
get=3D"_blank">http://sites.google.com/site/highnorthinc</a><br>mailto: <a =
href=3D"mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">blueroofmusic@gma=
il.com</a><br>PO Box 221=C2=A0 Grand Marais, MI 49839=C2=A0 906-494-2434<br=
><br><div style=3D"display:inline"></div><div style=3D"display:inline"></di=
v><div style=3D"display:inline"></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div=
></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br></div></di=
v><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On W=
ed, Nov 20, 2019 at 7:35 PM Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lgl@is=
land-resort.com">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px sol=
id rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-wo=
rd;">Hi,<div><br></div><div>I=E2=80=99m not on the SACM list, but did look =
at the archive. Hopefully I=E2=80=99m not out of sync.</div><div><br></div>=
<div>My thought is to register one claim for CWT that is an entire CoSWID (=
in CDDL the=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:13.3333px"><font face=3D"Courier"=
>concise-swid-tag)</font></span>.</div><div><br></div><div>That way CoSWID =
can grow and develop on its own without lots of adds and subtracts to the C=
WT registry. It has its own IANA registry with its own experts and such. Se=
ems like the coupling / factoring is about right.</div><div><br></div><div>=
This would also be the way I=E2=80=99d like to have it in EAT attestation. =
We=E2=80=99ve done a mini version of this with the=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://=
tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rats-eat-01#section-3.8" target=3D"_blank">l=
ocation claim</a>.</div><div><br></div><div>Then if you just want to sign a=
 CoSWID CWT style, this works pretty well too. It has a slight overhead com=
pared to having all the CoSWID data items as direct CWT claims in that it w=
ill have an additional map layer, but that is only about three bytes.</div>=
<div><br></div><div>LL</div><div><br></div></div>__________________________=
_____________________<br>
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From: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2019 21:10:49 -0500
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To: Ira McDonald <blueroofmusic@gmail.com>
Cc: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, rats@ietf.org, sacm <sacm@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [sacm]  CoSWID and EAT and CWT
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Great, thanks Laurence.  If that's easier I think having the CoSWID in one
claim should be ok and would have the same result as the suggestion I
made.  Changing the CoSWID format is a big enough process that it shouldn't
happen very often.

Best regards,
Kathleen

On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 8:00 PM Ira McDonald <blueroofmusic@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi Laurence,
>
> That seems like a good suggestion for a simple way to integrate CoSWID
> content
> into EAT.
>
> Cheers,
> - Ira
>
> Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)
> Co-Chair - TCG Trusted Mobility Solutions WG
> Co-Chair - TCG Metadata Access Protocol SG
> Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG
> Secretary - IEEE-ISTO Printer Working Group
> Co-Chair - IEEE-ISTO PWG Internet Printing Protocol WG
> IETF Designated Expert - IPP & Printer MIB
> Blue Roof Music / High North Inc
> http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic
> http://sites.google.com/site/highnorthinc
> mailto: blueroofmusic@gmail.com
> PO Box 221  Grand Marais, MI 49839  906-494-2434
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 7:35 PM Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com=
>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I=E2=80=99m not on the SACM list, but did look at the archive. Hopefully=
 I=E2=80=99m not
>> out of sync.
>>
>> My thought is to register one claim for CWT that is an entire CoSWID (in
>> CDDL the concise-swid-tag).
>>
>> That way CoSWID can grow and develop on its own without lots of adds and
>> subtracts to the CWT registry. It has its own IANA registry with its own
>> experts and such. Seems like the coupling / factoring is about right.
>>
>> This would also be the way I=E2=80=99d like to have it in EAT attestatio=
n. We=E2=80=99ve
>> done a mini version of this with the location claim
>> <https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rats-eat-01#section-3.8>.
>>
>> Then if you just want to sign a CoSWID CWT style, this works pretty well
>> too. It has a slight overhead compared to having all the CoSWID data ite=
ms
>> as direct CWT claims in that it will have an additional map layer, but t=
hat
>> is only about three bytes.
>>
>> LL
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> RATS mailing list
>> RATS@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>>
> _______________________________________________
> sacm mailing list
> sacm@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sacm
>


--=20

Best regards,
Kathleen

--0000000000007cf6cf0597d1d06a
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Great, thanks Laurence.=C2=A0 If that&#39;s easier I think=
 having the CoSWID in one claim should be ok and would have the same result=
 as the suggestion I made.=C2=A0 Changing the CoSWID format is a big enough=
 process that it shouldn&#39;t happen very often.<div><br></div><div>Best r=
egards,</div><div>Kathleen</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 8:00 PM Ira McDonal=
d &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com">blueroofmusic@gmail.com</a=
>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px=
 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><di=
v dir=3D"ltr"><div>Hi Laurence,</div><div><br></div><div>That seems like a =
good suggestion for a simple way to integrate CoSWID content</div><div>into=
 EAT.</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers,</div><div>- Ira</div><div><br></div>=
<div><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div=
 dir=3D"ltr"><div><div dir=3D"ltr">Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Archit=
ect)<br>Co-Chair - TCG Trusted Mobility Solutions WG</div><div>Co-Chair - T=
CG Metadata Access Protocol SG<br></div><div dir=3D"ltr">Chair - Linux Foun=
dation Open Printing WG<br>Secretary - IEEE-ISTO Printer Working Group<br>C=
o-Chair - IEEE-ISTO PWG Internet Printing Protocol WG<br>IETF Designated Ex=
pert - IPP &amp; Printer MIB<br>Blue Roof Music / High North Inc<br><a styl=
e=3D"color:rgb(51,51,255)" href=3D"http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmus=
ic" target=3D"_blank">http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic</a><br><a =
style=3D"color:rgb(102,0,204)" href=3D"http://sites.google.com/site/highnor=
thinc" target=3D"_blank">http://sites.google.com/site/highnorthinc</a><br>m=
ailto: <a href=3D"mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">blueroo=
fmusic@gmail.com</a><br>PO Box 221=C2=A0 Grand Marais, MI 49839=C2=A0 906-4=
94-2434<br><br><div style=3D"display:inline"></div><div style=3D"display:in=
line"></div><div style=3D"display:inline"></div><div></div><div></div><div>=
</div><div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><br>=
</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_=
attr">On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 7:35 PM Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:lgl@island-resort.com" target=3D"_blank">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0=
px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div>Hi,<=
div><br></div><div>I=E2=80=99m not on the SACM list, but did look at the ar=
chive. Hopefully I=E2=80=99m not out of sync.</div><div><br></div><div>My t=
hought is to register one claim for CWT that is an entire CoSWID (in CDDL t=
he=C2=A0<span style=3D"font-size:13.3333px"><font face=3D"Courier">concise-=
swid-tag)</font></span>.</div><div><br></div><div>That way CoSWID can grow =
and develop on its own without lots of adds and subtracts to the CWT regist=
ry. It has its own IANA registry with its own experts and such. Seems like =
the coupling / factoring is about right.</div><div><br></div><div>This woul=
d also be the way I=E2=80=99d like to have it in EAT attestation. We=E2=80=
=99ve done a mini version of this with the=C2=A0<a href=3D"https://tools.ie=
tf.org/html/draft-ietf-rats-eat-01#section-3.8" target=3D"_blank">location =
claim</a>.</div><div><br></div><div>Then if you just want to sign a CoSWID =
CWT style, this works pretty well too. It has a slight overhead compared to=
 having all the CoSWID data items as direct CWT claims in that it will have=
 an additional map layer, but that is only about three bytes.</div><div><br=
></div><div>LL</div><div><br></div></div>__________________________________=
_____________<br>
RATS mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">RATS@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats</a><br>
</blockquote></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
sacm mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:sacm@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sacm@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sacm" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sacm</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"=
 class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div>Best regards,</div><di=
v>Kathleen</div></div></div>

--0000000000007cf6cf0597d1d06a--


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To: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Two types of secure attestation
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And then you have the outcome/action of an attestation which I guess currently is "Pass" or "Fail".

As shown in https://cyberphone.github.io/doc/research/session-based-remote-attestation.pdf "Pass" may very well return a more sophisticated result, enabling a protected API in a session a bit similar to TLS.

Anders

On 2019-11-20 22:11, Smith, Ned wrote:
>
> There are some misrepresentations in the analysis below (I’ll comment inline below using [nms] delimiters). In general, I don’t see attestation types as being binary. Dave Thaler’s chart / truth table in another thread seems to suggest this as well given there are many different types of attesting environments (aka roots of trust).
>
> It might make sense to have discussion around claims that apply to attesting environments vs. claims that apply to attested environments? The important security property of attesting environments is they often are regarded as “trusted” meaning there isn’t some other attesting environment that vouches for it.
>
> Associating claims to attesting environments often takes a different from attestation (as represented by the roles / arch models); namely using certificates issued by product vendors (what the arch has called ‘asserters’). Certificates typically contain identity claims but could contain additional claims. Vendors could also sign assert claims by signing a document that asserts them. These could be manifests, attribute certs, identity certs with claims extensions and possibly even JWT/CWT (tokens). I haven’t seen a use case for vendor issued tokens however. Possibly PKI will transition from X.509 based to Token based at some point in the future, but I expect it will take a while. Vendors issuing (signing) manifests seems reasonable since many already create manifests for software distribution also called packages / bundles. The workflow for ‘reference values’ would not be much different than for creating a SW update manifest.
>
> *From: *RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 6:00 PM
> *To: *Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
> *Cc: *"rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [Rats] Two types of secure attestation
>
> Hi Laurence,
>
> I read your message as there only being 2 types of attestation as opposed to what you stated in your follow on email, which better maps to the restricted set in your first message.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Kathleen
>
> On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 8:07 PM Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>> wrote:
>
>     Hi Kathleen,
>
>     Not sure I’m following your thought completely.
>
>     From what I know of Authenticated Boot, the code signing formats are usually proprietary and idiosyncratic. The first stages of it are likely in true ROM (chip metal layer) and can be very architecture and system specific and would not use CoSWID or EAT.
>
>     My comments below are about getting a system booted up to state where it known to behave as desired.
>
>     Once it is up then signed CoSWIDs in EATs would come into play. They can be trusted because the attester and system SW known to have booted up correctly. Knowing who signed some SW listed in a CoSWID is only of value if you know the system SW did signature checking when it loaded the SW it listed. For example, everyone knows how Android app signing works, so listing the signer of an Android app is good useful information.
>
>     Hope that makes sense in relation to your comment.
>
>     LL
>
>
>
>         On Nov 19, 2019, at 10:35 PM, Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>         Hi Laurence,
>
>         Where does the code signing example fit in that you gave as it's not really an attestation, but could be useful in the format of an EAT/CWT?   This questions considers the CoSWID discussion as well as another example you had in your slides later (which was really the same) on just validating the code was signed by the expected private key? Should that be called an attestation or just using the format for signing?  You might add claims in above what's in the CoSWID and use the nesting of EAT/subdomains as well as perform remote verification.
>
>         Thanks,
>
>         Kathleen
>
>         On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 8:26 AM Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com <mailto:lgl@island-resort..com>> wrote:
>
>             Fundamentally, I think there are two ways that an attestation verifier comes to know that a device / entity is running approved SW and will behave as desired.
>
>             *TPM based*
>
>             ·Originates in the PC world where the end user had to be able to choose the system SW
>
>             [nms] Not sure what relevance to attestation should be ascribed because of how TPMs originated.
>
>             ·Has a TPM that performs a general measuring function
>
>                       + Has an attestation signing key for signing measurements that is kept secret by the TPM
>
>             oTPM is generic as it can be used for PC’s, routers, IoT devices
>
>             [nms] Profiles for how to adapt TPM for use in specific platform classes is generally required.
>
>             ·Authenticated boot is optional
>
>             [nms] I think the industry also uses the term ‘secure boot’. TPM supports attestation (of the boot sequence) while a secure boot approach doesn’t imply attestation is needed/used.
>
>             [nms] Boot behavior is more a property of the Root of Trust for Measurement (RTM) than a TPM. There are many types of RTM technology most simply it is a boot ROM.
>
>             ·Uses a staged boot architecture where each stage must measure (hash) the following stage
>
>             [nms] Boot architecture is determined by the type of device / platform not the TPM. Staged boot sequences are fairly common across the industry. Hence the term ‘bootstrap’.
>
>             oHashes fed into the TPM
>
>             oTPM generates the attestation of the registers holding the hashes
>
>             ·Device cost raised by cost of TPM part
>
>             [nms] Not sure how this is relevant to RATS
>
>             ·The verifier must run a parallel set of measurements (hashes)
>
>             oVerifier is complex
>
>             [nms] as compared to what?
>
>             *Authenticated Boot based*
>
>             ·Origins in mobile phone, TEE and DRM world where the user can NOT choose the system SW
>
>             ·Authenticated boot is required
>
>             oUses a boot ROM that really is a ROM, probably in silicon (not flash), that can NOT be changed
>
>             [nms] This is true for platforms using a TPM as well.
>
>             oBoot ROM verifies the SW that is loaded, particular the top privilege (e.g. kernel) SW
>
>             [nms] Verification implies the ability to determine boot code integrity. This is common to platforms that use a TPM.
>
>             oA good implementation has anti-rollback to prevent old versions of SW from being run
>
>             ·Has an attestation signing key that is programmed in fuses or possibly in flash
>
>             [nms] This is commonly true for TPM based attestation implementations.
>
>             oHas a HW block that prevents access to the attestation key unless authenticated boot succeeds
>
>             [nms] This is also true for solutions that wish to implement secure boot using a TPM.
>
>             oOnly top privilege SW can use it
>
>             [nms] TPM attestation keys have restrictions on use as well.
>
>             ·Attestations are created in the top-privilege SW
>
>             oSimply signing a nonce proves the device is running approved SW
>
>             [nms] The security properties of the signing key (attestation key) are a function of the claims that the manufacturers make about the environment that protects the key. This is true for TPM as well as any other root of trust / attesting environment.
>
>             oEasy to add other claims in —> EAT
>
>             [nms] relative to what?
>
>             ·Device cost raised by need for secure key provisioning in the factory
>
>             ·Verifier is very simple
>
>             oJust needs to verify the signature and nonce
>
>             [nms] The verifier is also integrated into the boot code. These verifiers need to be provisioned with boot state policies and so forth. Secure boot is an example of the combining of Attester and Verifier roles.
>
>             Both provide acceptable security for their use cases and are broadly in use.
>
>             RATS needs to support both.
>
>             [nms] In what ways does RATS not support both?
>
>             LL
>
>             _______________________________________________
>             RATS mailing list
>             RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
>             https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>
>
>         -- 
>
>         Best regards,
>
>         Kathleen
>
>         _______________________________________________
>         RATS mailing list
>         RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
>         https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>
>
> -- 
>
> Best regards,
>
> Kathleen
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats


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    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">And then you have the outcome/action of
      an attestation which I guess currently is "Pass" or "Fail".<br>
      <br>
      As shown in
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://cyberphone.github.io/doc/research/session-based-remote-attestation.pdf">https://cyberphone.github.io/doc/research/session-based-remote-attestation.pdf</a>
      "Pass" may very well return a more sophisticated result, enabling
      a protected API in a session a bit similar to TLS.<br>
      <br>
      Anders<br>
      <br>
      On 2019-11-20 22:11, Smith, Ned wrote:<br>
    </div>
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      <div class="WordSection1">
        <p class="MsoNormal">There are some misrepresentations in the
          analysis below (I’ll comment inline below using [nms]
          delimiters). In general, I don’t see attestation types as
          being binary. Dave Thaler’s chart / truth table in another
          thread seems to suggest this as well given there are many
          different types of attesting environments (aka roots of
          trust).
          <o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">It might make sense to have discussion
          around claims that apply to attesting environments vs. claims
          that apply to attested environments? The important security
          property of attesting environments is they often are regarded
          as “trusted” meaning there isn’t some other attesting
          environment that vouches for it. <o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal">Associating claims to attesting
          environments often takes a different from attestation (as
          represented by the roles / arch models); namely using
          certificates issued by product vendors (what the arch has
          called ‘asserters’). Certificates typically contain identity
          claims but could contain additional claims. Vendors could also
          sign assert claims by signing a document that asserts them.
          These could be manifests, attribute certs, identity certs with
          claims extensions and possibly even JWT/CWT (tokens). I
          haven’t seen a use case for vendor issued tokens however.
          Possibly PKI will transition from X.509 based to Token based
          at some point in the future, but I expect it will take a
          while. Vendors issuing (signing) manifests seems reasonable
          since many already create manifests for software distribution
          also called packages / bundles. The workflow for ‘reference
          values’ would not be much different than for creating a SW
          update manifest.<o:p></o:p></p>
        <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
          1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><b><span
                style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From:
              </span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">RATS
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org">&lt;rats-bounces@ietf.org&gt;</a> on behalf of Kathleen
              Moriarty <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com">&lt;kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com&gt;</a><br>
              <b>Date: </b>Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 6:00 PM<br>
              <b>To: </b>Laurence Lundblade
              <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:lgl@island-resort.com">&lt;lgl@island-resort.com&gt;</a><br>
              <b>Cc: </b><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rats@ietf.org">"rats@ietf.org"</a> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rats@ietf.org">&lt;rats@ietf.org&gt;</a><br>
              <b>Subject: </b>Re: [Rats] Two types of secure
              attestation<o:p></o:p></span></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        </div>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">Hi Laurence, <o:p></o:p></p>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">I read your
              message as there only being 2 types of attestation as
              opposed to what you stated in your follow on email,
              which better maps to the restricted set in your first
              message.<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">Kathleen<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        <div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">On Tue, Nov
              19, 2019 at 8:07 PM Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a
                href="mailto:lgl@island-resort.com"
                moz-do-not-send="true">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt;
              wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
          </div>
          <blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC
            1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
            6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">Hi Kathleen,
                <o:p></o:p></p>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">Not sure
                  I’m following your thought completely. <o:p></o:p></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
              </div>
              <div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">From
                    what I know of Authenticated Boot, the code signing
                    formats are usually proprietary and idiosyncratic.
                    The first stages of it are likely in true ROM (chip
                    metal layer) and can be very architecture and system
                    specific and would not use CoSWID or EAT. <o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">My
                    comments below are about getting a system booted up
                    to state where it known to behave as desired.<o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">Once it
                    is up then signed CoSWIDs in EATs would come into
                    play. They can be trusted because the attester and
                    system SW known to have booted up correctly. Knowing
                    who signed some SW listed in a CoSWID is only of
                    value if you know the system SW did signature
                    checking when it loaded the SW it listed. For
                    example, everyone knows how Android app signing
                    works, so listing the signer of an Android app is
                    good useful information.<o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">Hope
                    that makes sense in relation to your comment.<o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">LL<o:p></o:p></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                </div>
                <div>
                  <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><br>
                    <br>
                    <o:p></o:p></p>
                  <blockquote
                    style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
                    <div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">On
                        Nov 19, 2019, at 10:35 PM, Kathleen Moriarty
                        &lt;<a
                          href="mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com"
                          target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;
                        wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                    <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                    <div>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">Hi
                          Laurence, <o:p></o:p></p>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">Where
                            does the code signing example fit in that
                            you gave as it's not really an attestation,
                            but could be useful in the format of an
                            EAT/CWT?   This questions considers the
                            CoSWID discussion as well as another example
                            you had in your slides later (which was
                            really the same) on just validating the code
                            was signed by the expected private key? 
                            Should that be called an attestation or just
                            using the format for signing?  You might add
                            claims in above what's in the CoSWID and use
                            the nesting of EAT/subdomains as well as
                            perform remote verification.<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">Kathleen<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                      <div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">On
                            Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 8:26 AM Laurence
                            Lundblade &lt;<a
                              href="mailto:lgl@island-resort..com"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt;
                            wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
                        </div>
                        <blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid
                          #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in
                          6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                              style="margin-left:.5in">Fundamentally, I
                              think there are two ways that an
                              attestation verifier comes to know that a
                              device / entity is running approved SW and
                              will behave as desired.
                              <o:p></o:p></p>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                style="margin-left:.5in"><b>TPM based</b><o:p></o:p></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0
                                level1 lfo1">
                                <!--[if !supportLists]--><span
                                  style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span
                                    style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span
                                      style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New
                                      Roman&quot;">        
                                    </span></span></span><!--[endif]-->Originates
                                in the PC world where the end user had
                                to be able to choose the system SW<o:p></o:p></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">[nms]
                                Not sure what relevance to attestation
                                should be ascribed because of how TPMs
                                originated.<o:p></o:p></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0
                                level1 lfo1">
                                <!--[if !supportLists]--><span
                                  style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span
                                    style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span
                                      style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New
                                      Roman&quot;">        
                                    </span></span></span><!--[endif]-->Has
                                a TPM that performs a general measuring
                                function
                                <o:p></o:p></p>
                              <ul type="disc">
                                <ul type="circle">
                                  <ul type="square">
                                    <li class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-right:.5in;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0
                                      level3 lfo1">
                                      Has an attestation signing key for
                                      signing measurements that is kept
                                      secret by the TPM<o:p></o:p></li>
                                  </ul>
                                </ul>
                              </ul>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0
                                level2 lfo1">
                                <!--[if !supportLists]--><span
                                  style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
                                  New&quot;"><span
                                    style="mso-list:Ignore">o<span
                                      style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New
                                      Roman&quot;">   
                                    </span></span></span><!--[endif]-->TPM
                                is generic as it can be used for PC’s,
                                routers, IoT devices<o:p></o:p></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">[nms]
                                Profiles for how to adapt TPM for use in
                                specific platform classes is generally
                                required.<o:p></o:p></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0
                                level1 lfo1">
                                <!--[if !supportLists]--><span
                                  style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span
                                    style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span
                                      style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New
                                      Roman&quot;">        
                                    </span></span></span><!--[endif]-->Authenticated
                                boot is optional<o:p></o:p></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">[nms]
                                I think the industry also uses the term
                                ‘secure boot’. TPM supports attestation
                                (of the boot sequence) while a secure
                                boot approach doesn’t imply attestation
                                is needed/used.<o:p></o:p></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">[nms]
                                Boot behavior is more a property of the
                                Root of Trust for Measurement (RTM) than
                                a TPM. There are many types of RTM
                                technology most simply it is a boot ROM.<o:p></o:p></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0
                                level1 lfo1">
                                <!--[if !supportLists]--><span
                                  style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span
                                    style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span
                                      style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New
                                      Roman&quot;">        
                                    </span></span></span><!--[endif]-->Uses
                                a staged boot architecture where each
                                stage must measure (hash) the following
                                stage
                                <o:p></o:p></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">[nms]
                                Boot architecture is determined by the
                                type of device / platform not the TPM.
                                Staged boot sequences are fairly common
                                across the industry. Hence the term
                                ‘bootstrap’.
                                <o:p></o:p></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0
                                level2 lfo1">
                                <!--[if !supportLists]--><span
                                  style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
                                  New&quot;"><span
                                    style="mso-list:Ignore">o<span
                                      style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New
                                      Roman&quot;">   
                                    </span></span></span><!--[endif]-->Hashes
                                fed into the TPM<o:p></o:p></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0
                                level2 lfo1">
                                <!--[if !supportLists]--><span
                                  style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
                                  New&quot;"><span
                                    style="mso-list:Ignore">o<span
                                      style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New
                                      Roman&quot;">   
                                    </span></span></span><!--[endif]-->TPM
                                generates the attestation of the
                                registers holding the hashes<o:p></o:p></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0
                                level1 lfo1">
                                <!--[if !supportLists]--><span
                                  style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span
                                    style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span
                                      style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New
                                      Roman&quot;">        
                                    </span></span></span><!--[endif]-->Device
                                cost raised by cost of TPM part<o:p></o:p></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">[nms]
                                Not sure how this is relevant to RATS<o:p></o:p></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0
                                level1 lfo1">
                                <!--[if !supportLists]--><span
                                  style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span
                                    style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span
                                      style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New
                                      Roman&quot;">        
                                    </span></span></span><!--[endif]-->The
                                verifier must run a parallel set of
                                measurements (hashes)
                                <o:p></o:p></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0
                                level2 lfo1">
                                <!--[if !supportLists]--><span
                                  style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
                                  New&quot;"><span
                                    style="mso-list:Ignore">o<span
                                      style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New
                                      Roman&quot;">   
                                    </span></span></span><!--[endif]-->Verifier
                                is complex<o:p></o:p></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">[nms]
                                as compared to what?<o:p></o:p></p>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                style="margin-left:.5in"><b>Authenticated
                                  Boot based</b><o:p></o:p></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1
                                level1 lfo2">
                                <!--[if !supportLists]--><span
                                  style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span
                                    style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span
                                      style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New
                                      Roman&quot;">        
                                    </span></span></span><!--[endif]-->Origins
                                in mobile phone, TEE and DRM world where
                                the user can NOT choose the system SW<o:p></o:p></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1
                                level1 lfo2">
                                <!--[if !supportLists]--><span
                                  style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span
                                    style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span
                                      style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New
                                      Roman&quot;">        
                                    </span></span></span><!--[endif]-->Authenticated
                                boot is required <o:p></o:p></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1
                                level2 lfo2">
                                <!--[if !supportLists]--><span
                                  style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
                                  New&quot;"><span
                                    style="mso-list:Ignore">o<span
                                      style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New
                                      Roman&quot;">   
                                    </span></span></span><!--[endif]-->Uses
                                a boot ROM that really is a ROM,
                                probably in silicon (not flash), that
                                can NOT be changed<o:p></o:p></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">[nms]
                                This is true for platforms using a TPM
                                as well.<o:p></o:p></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1
                                level2 lfo2">
                                <!--[if !supportLists]--><span
                                  style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
                                  New&quot;"><span
                                    style="mso-list:Ignore">o<span
                                      style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New
                                      Roman&quot;">   
                                    </span></span></span><!--[endif]-->Boot
                                ROM verifies the SW that is loaded,
                                particular the top privilege (e.g.
                                kernel) SW<o:p></o:p></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">[nms]
                                Verification implies the ability to
                                determine boot code integrity. This is
                                common to platforms that use a TPM.<o:p></o:p></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1
                                level2 lfo2">
                                <!--[if !supportLists]--><span
                                  style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
                                  New&quot;"><span
                                    style="mso-list:Ignore">o<span
                                      style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New
                                      Roman&quot;">   
                                    </span></span></span><!--[endif]-->A
                                good implementation has anti-rollback to
                                prevent old versions of SW from being
                                run<o:p></o:p></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1
                                level1 lfo2">
                                <!--[if !supportLists]--><span
                                  style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span
                                    style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span
                                      style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New
                                      Roman&quot;">        
                                    </span></span></span><!--[endif]-->Has
                                an attestation signing key that is
                                programmed in fuses or possibly in flash
                                <o:p></o:p></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">[nms]
                                This is commonly true for TPM based
                                attestation implementations.<o:p></o:p></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1
                                level2 lfo2">
                                <!--[if !supportLists]--><span
                                  style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
                                  New&quot;"><span
                                    style="mso-list:Ignore">o<span
                                      style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New
                                      Roman&quot;">   
                                    </span></span></span><!--[endif]-->Has
                                a HW block that prevents access to the
                                attestation key unless authenticated
                                boot succeeds<o:p></o:p></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">[nms]
                                This is also true for solutions that
                                wish to implement secure boot using a
                                TPM.<o:p></o:p></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1
                                level2 lfo2">
                                <!--[if !supportLists]--><span
                                  style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
                                  New&quot;"><span
                                    style="mso-list:Ignore">o<span
                                      style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New
                                      Roman&quot;">   
                                    </span></span></span><!--[endif]-->Only
                                top privilege SW can use it<o:p></o:p></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">[nms]
                                TPM attestation keys have restrictions
                                on use as well.<o:p></o:p></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1
                                level1 lfo2">
                                <!--[if !supportLists]--><span
                                  style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span
                                    style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span
                                      style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New
                                      Roman&quot;">        
                                    </span></span></span><!--[endif]-->Attestations
                                are created in the top-privilege SW <o:p>
                                </o:p></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1
                                level2 lfo2">
                                <!--[if !supportLists]--><span
                                  style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
                                  New&quot;"><span
                                    style="mso-list:Ignore">o<span
                                      style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New
                                      Roman&quot;">   
                                    </span></span></span><!--[endif]-->Simply
                                signing a nonce proves the device is
                                running approved SW<o:p></o:p></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">[nms]
                                The security properties of the signing
                                key (attestation key) are a function of
                                the claims that the manufacturers make
                                about the environment that protects the
                                key. This is true for TPM as well as any
                                other root of trust / attesting
                                environment.<o:p></o:p></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1
                                level2 lfo2">
                                <!--[if !supportLists]--><span
                                  style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
                                  New&quot;"><span
                                    style="mso-list:Ignore">o<span
                                      style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New
                                      Roman&quot;">   
                                    </span></span></span><!--[endif]-->Easy
                                to add other claims in —&gt; EAT<o:p></o:p></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">[nms]
                                relative to what?<o:p></o:p></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1
                                level1 lfo2">
                                <!--[if !supportLists]--><span
                                  style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span
                                    style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span
                                      style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New
                                      Roman&quot;">        
                                    </span></span></span><!--[endif]-->Device
                                cost raised by need for secure key
                                provisioning in the factory<o:p></o:p></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.0in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1
                                level1 lfo2">
                                <!--[if !supportLists]--><span
                                  style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Symbol"><span
                                    style="mso-list:Ignore">·<span
                                      style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New
                                      Roman&quot;">        
                                    </span></span></span><!--[endif]-->Verifier
                                is very simple <o:p></o:p></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:1.5in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l1
                                level2 lfo2">
                                <!--[if !supportLists]--><span
                                  style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Courier
                                  New&quot;"><span
                                    style="mso-list:Ignore">o<span
                                      style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New
                                      Roman&quot;">   
                                    </span></span></span><!--[endif]-->Just
                                needs to verify the signature and nonce<o:p></o:p></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto">[nms]
                                The verifier is also integrated into the
                                boot code. These verifiers need to be
                                provisioned with boot state policies and
                                so forth. Secure boot is an example of
                                the combining of Attester and Verifier
                                roles. <o:p></o:p></p>
                              <div>
                                <p class="MsoNormal"
                                  style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                              </div>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                style="margin-left:.5in">Both provide
                                acceptable security for their use cases
                                and are broadly in use.<o:p></o:p></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                style="margin-left:.5in">RATS needs to
                                support both.<o:p></o:p></p>
                              <p class="MsoNormal">[nms] In what ways
                                does RATS not support both?<o:p></o:p></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                            </div>
                            <div>
                              <p class="MsoNormal"
                                style="margin-left:.5in">LL<o:p></o:p></p>
                            </div>
                          </div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">_______________________________________________<br>
                            RATS mailing list<br>
                            <a href="mailto:RATS@ietf.org"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">RATS@ietf.org</a><br>
                            <a
                              href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats"
                              target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats</a><o:p></o:p></p>
                        </blockquote>
                      </div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><br
                          clear="all">
                        <o:p></o:p></p>
                      <div>
                        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                      </div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">-- <o:p></o:p></p>
                      <div>
                        <div>
                          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                              style="margin-left:.5in">Best regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
                          </div>
                          <div>
                            <p class="MsoNormal"
                              style="margin-left:.5in">Kathleen<o:p></o:p></p>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                      <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">_______________________________________________<br>
                        RATS mailing list<br>
                        <a href="mailto:RATS@ietf.org" target="_blank"
                          moz-do-not-send="true">RATS@ietf.org</a><br>
                        <a
                          href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats"
                          target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats</a><o:p></o:p></p>
                    </div>
                  </blockquote>
                </div>
                <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
              </div>
            </div>
          </blockquote>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><br clear="all">
          <o:p></o:p></p>
        <div>
          <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
        </div>
        <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">-- <o:p></o:p></p>
        <div>
          <div>
            <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><o:p> </o:p></p>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">Best
                regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
            <div>
              <p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in">Kathleen<o:p></o:p></p>
            </div>
          </div>
        </div>
      </div>
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
RATS mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:RATS@ietf.org">RATS@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>

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From: "Waltermire, David A. (Fed)" <david.waltermire@nist.gov>
To: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, Ira McDonald <blueroofmusic@gmail.com>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, sacm <sacm@ietf.org>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
Thread-Topic: [sacm] [Rats] CoSWID and EAT and CWT
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [sacm]  CoSWID and EAT and CWT
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It sounds like having a CWT claim that contains an entire CoSWID is a path =
forward. It may also make sense to do something similar for ISO SWID tags.

Am I right in thinking that this CWT work can be done in RATS, referencing =
CoSWID once it is published as a normative reference? This would allow CoSW=
ID to go forward to the IESG, while the CoSWID CWT claim is worked in paral=
lel in RATS.

Kathleen, if this is true, does this way forward address your CWT-related c=
omments?

Regards,
Dave





________________________________
From: sacm <sacm-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen=
.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 9:10 PM
To: Ira McDonald <blueroofmusic@gmail.com>
Cc: rats@ietf.org <rats@ietf.org>; sacm <sacm@ietf.org>; Laurence Lundblade=
 <lgl@island-resort.com>
Subject: Re: [sacm] [Rats] CoSWID and EAT and CWT

Great, thanks Laurence.  If that's easier I think having the CoSWID in one =
claim should be ok and would have the same result as the suggestion I made.=
  Changing the CoSWID format is a big enough process that it shouldn't happ=
en very often.

Best regards,
Kathleen

On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 8:00 PM Ira McDonald <blueroofmusic@gmail.com<mailt=
o:blueroofmusic@gmail.com>> wrote:
Hi Laurence,

That seems like a good suggestion for a simple way to integrate CoSWID cont=
ent
into EAT.

Cheers,
- Ira

Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)
Co-Chair - TCG Trusted Mobility Solutions WG
Co-Chair - TCG Metadata Access Protocol SG
Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG
Secretary - IEEE-ISTO Printer Working Group
Co-Chair - IEEE-ISTO PWG Internet Printing Protocol WG
IETF Designated Expert - IPP & Printer MIB
Blue Roof Music / High North Inc
http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic<https://gcc01.safelinks.protecti=
on.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fsites.google.com%2Fsite%2Fblueroofmusic&=
data=3D02%7C01%7Cdavid.waltermire%40nist.gov%7C92a2dcbadd8d47661b9608d76e28=
2847%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a93e054655c61dec%7C1%7C1%7C637098991070417006&sdata=
=3DGDIVVIesvqqXnuU6TtLbK7GJ4eI1b1EcYSPoXsHlj04%3D&reserved=3D0>
http://sites.google.com/site/highnorthinc<https://gcc01.safelinks.protectio=
n.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fsites.google.com%2Fsite%2Fhighnorthinc&da=
ta=3D02%7C01%7Cdavid.waltermire%40nist.gov%7C92a2dcbadd8d47661b9608d76e2828=
47%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a93e054655c61dec%7C1%7C1%7C637098991070417006&sdata=3D=
7z%2BoMcYSSFD8hAYHmELqNoyGAxTBE9gknbV6kAzKWX8%3D&reserved=3D0>
mailto: blueroofmusic@gmail.com<mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com>
PO Box 221  Grand Marais, MI 49839  906-494-2434



On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 7:35 PM Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com<m=
ailto:lgl@island-resort.com>> wrote:
Hi,

I=92m not on the SACM list, but did look at the archive. Hopefully I=92m no=
t out of sync.

My thought is to register one claim for CWT that is an entire CoSWID (in CD=
DL the concise-swid-tag).

That way CoSWID can grow and develop on its own without lots of adds and su=
btracts to the CWT registry. It has its own IANA registry with its own expe=
rts and such. Seems like the coupling / factoring is about right.

This would also be the way I=92d like to have it in EAT attestation. We=92v=
e done a mini version of this with the location claim<https://gcc01.safelin=
ks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraf=
t-ietf-rats-eat-01%23section-3.8&data=3D02%7C01%7Cdavid.waltermire%40nist.g=
ov%7C92a2dcbadd8d47661b9608d76e282847%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a93e054655c61dec%7C=
1%7C1%7C637098991070426961&sdata=3D%2Fhi008Am2dlY6tBQHdPVVGZzEcWNmqd5MvgPOM=
14jE8%3D&reserved=3D0>.

Then if you just want to sign a CoSWID CWT style, this works pretty well to=
o. It has a slight overhead compared to having all the CoSWID data items as=
 direct CWT claims in that it will have an additional map layer, but that i=
s only about three bytes.

LL

_______________________________________________
RATS mailing list
RATS@ietf.org<mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats<https://gcc01.safelinks.protecti=
on.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Frat=
s&data=3D02%7C01%7Cdavid.waltermire%40nist.gov%7C92a2dcbadd8d47661b9608d76e=
282847%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a93e054655c61dec%7C1%7C1%7C637098991070426961&sdat=
a=3DfdpXMIU%2BNkMSn3RJ4X5AsSuMU7pbokHXltsX8ZYP9E0%3D&reserved=3D0>
_______________________________________________
sacm mailing list
sacm@ietf.org<mailto:sacm@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sacm<https://gcc01.safelinks.protecti=
on.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fsac=
m&data=3D02%7C01%7Cdavid.waltermire%40nist.gov%7C92a2dcbadd8d47661b9608d76e=
282847%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a93e054655c61dec%7C1%7C1%7C637098991070436893&sdat=
a=3DokSPAqVHj9KBxPtViQdnffsfhlMF4t0%2F87PXXY78fA0%3D&reserved=3D0>


--

Best regards,
Kathleen

--_000_BN7PR09MB2819D797B89183218BEFA823F04E0BN7PR09MB2819namp_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-1=
252">
<style type=3D"text/css" style=3D"display:none;"> P {margin-top:0;margin-bo=
ttom:0;} </style>
</head>
<body dir=3D"ltr">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,san=
s-serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<span>It sounds like having a CWT claim that contains an entire CoSWID is a=
 path forward. It may also make sense to do something similar for ISO SWID =
tags.</span></div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,san=
s-serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<span><br>
</span></div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,san=
s-serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<span>Am I right in thinking that this CWT work can be done in RATS, refere=
ncing CoSWID once it is published as a normative reference? This would allo=
w CoSWID to go forward to the IESG, while the CoSWID CWT claim is worked in=
 parallel in RATS.</span></div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,san=
s-serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<span><br>
</span></div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,san=
s-serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<span>Kathleen, if this is true, does this way forward address your CWT-rel=
ated comments?</span></div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,san=
s-serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,san=
s-serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<span>Regards,</span></div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,san=
s-serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<span>Dave</span></div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,san=
s-serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<span><br>
</span></div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,san=
s-serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<span><br>
</span></div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,san=
s-serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,san=
s-serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,san=
s-serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0); font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-se=
rif; font-size:12pt">
</div>
<hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Calib=
ri, sans-serif" style=3D"font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> sacm &lt;sacm-bounces=
@ietf.org&gt; on behalf of Kathleen Moriarty &lt;kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gma=
il.com&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 20, 2019 9:10 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Ira McDonald &lt;blueroofmusic@gmail.com&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> rats@ietf.org &lt;rats@ietf.org&gt;; sacm &lt;sacm@ietf.org&gt;;=
 Laurence Lundblade &lt;lgl@island-resort.com&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [sacm] [Rats] CoSWID and EAT and CWT</font>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Great, thanks Laurence.&nbsp; If that's easier I think hav=
ing the CoSWID in one claim should be ok and would have the same result as =
the suggestion I made.&nbsp; Changing the CoSWID format is a big enough pro=
cess that it shouldn't happen very often.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best regards,</div>
<div>Kathleen</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class=3D"x_gmail_quote">
<div class=3D"x_gmail_attr" dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 8:00 PM Ira=
 McDonald &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com">blueroofmusic@gmai=
l.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"x_gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; bord=
er-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204); padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>Hi Laurence,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>That seems like a good suggestion for a simple way to integrate CoSWID=
 content</div>
<div>into EAT.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Cheers,</div>
<div>- Ira</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)<br>
Co-Chair - TCG Trusted Mobility Solutions WG</div>
<div>Co-Chair - TCG Metadata Access Protocol SG<br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG<br>
Secretary - IEEE-ISTO Printer Working Group<br>
Co-Chair - IEEE-ISTO PWG Internet Printing Protocol WG<br>
IETF Designated Expert - IPP &amp; Printer MIB<br>
Blue Roof Music / High North Inc<br>
<a href=3D"https://gcc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F=
%2Fsites.google.com%2Fsite%2Fblueroofmusic&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Cdavid.walte=
rmire%40nist.gov%7C92a2dcbadd8d47661b9608d76e282847%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a93e0=
54655c61dec%7C1%7C1%7C637098991070417006&amp;sdata=3DGDIVVIesvqqXnuU6TtLbK7=
GJ4eI1b1EcYSPoXsHlj04%3D&amp;reserved=3D0" target=3D"_blank" shash=3D"z3mHm=
21smPa7bA7Zx2QkN&#43;eNokv25iKheuvpfD1XND7IY5V63VUHcd3sIavliUPis7B73OORhV6v=
aRvuu1qW/22CVeuXnBDh3oJ&#43;zbw9heXSjpvxwVSOPrvmJkYcvOakz4bgFpj2HQNk5vVl6wR=
GQb9RsEmmCZMaBTBDjdeoNhw=3D" originalsrc=3D"http://sites.google.com/site/bl=
ueroofmusic">http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic</a><br>
<a style=3D"color:rgb(102,0,204)" href=3D"https://gcc01.safelinks.protectio=
n.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fsites.google.com%2Fsite%2Fhighnorthinc&am=
p;data=3D02%7C01%7Cdavid.waltermire%40nist.gov%7C92a2dcbadd8d47661b9608d76e=
282847%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a93e054655c61dec%7C1%7C1%7C637098991070417006&amp;=
sdata=3D7z%2BoMcYSSFD8hAYHmELqNoyGAxTBE9gknbV6kAzKWX8%3D&amp;reserved=3D0" =
target=3D"_blank" shash=3D"cRiwF8rGL2D8dTzBFaGKMGPT4h/FNWFnj&#43;kG650EGYjv=
eBNaYRN1Ciswptjjh2Y13ELzXH7JK9CNUyYUhh&#43;CrBzq8g11iJAiz/YsbOHTWSDzmBsCASO=
vWtCQzz2p22xRROOXCA2GYyVU1wbmHr4DHb8Xsm76KoboHO7ukB0kIoY=3D" originalsrc=3D=
"http://sites.google.com/site/highnorthinc">http://sites.google.com/site/hi=
ghnorthinc</a><br>
mailto: <a href=3D"mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">bluero=
ofmusic@gmail.com</a><br>
PO Box 221&nbsp; Grand Marais, MI 49839&nbsp; 906-494-2434<br>
<br>
<div style=3D"display:inline"></div>
<div style=3D"display:inline"></div>
<div style=3D"display:inline"></div>
<div></div>
<div></div>
<div></div>
<div></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class=3D"x_gmail_quote">
<div class=3D"x_gmail_attr" dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 7:35 PM Lau=
rence Lundblade &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" target=3D"_bla=
nk">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"x_gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; bord=
er-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204); padding-left:1ex">
<div>Hi,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I=92m not on the SACM list, but did look at the archive. Hopefully I=
=92m not out of sync.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>My thought is to register one claim for CWT that is an entire CoSWID (=
in CDDL the&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-size:13.3333px"><font face=3D"Courier"=
>concise-swid-tag)</font></span>.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>That way CoSWID can grow and develop on its own without lots of adds a=
nd subtracts to the CWT registry. It has its own IANA registry with its own=
 experts and such. Seems like the coupling / factoring is about right.</div=
>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This would also be the way I=92d like to have it in EAT attestation. W=
e=92ve done a mini version of this with the&nbsp;<a href=3D"https://gcc01.s=
afelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%=
2Fdraft-ietf-rats-eat-01%23section-3.8&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Cdavid.waltermir=
e%40nist.gov%7C92a2dcbadd8d47661b9608d76e282847%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a93e05465=
5c61dec%7C1%7C1%7C637098991070426961&amp;sdata=3D%2Fhi008Am2dlY6tBQHdPVVGZz=
EcWNmqd5MvgPOM14jE8%3D&amp;reserved=3D0" target=3D"_blank" shash=3D"yUqYslU=
eAFYLv/6obMj&#43;csU/PkHW93d6OjFUNzYg7hfuBlNS8ZA0mZsNCLxSBECaN2VgGitMNlOZ5w=
utmlDGXHA&#43;O36NVYgqXXlo78J8R2VqoFEhjjMRqzlwhaXL5nWuxqE8tzOY6sNOx/iVV24qg=
byLlVAWCR/PcG3aY9tYJxQ=3D" originalsrc=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft=
-ietf-rats-eat-01#section-3.8">location
 claim</a>.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Then if you just want to sign a CoSWID CWT style, this works pretty we=
ll too. It has a slight overhead compared to having all the CoSWID data ite=
ms as direct CWT claims in that it will have an additional map layer, but t=
hat is only about three bytes.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>LL</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
RATS mailing list<br>
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termire%40nist.gov%7C92a2dcbadd8d47661b9608d76e282847%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a93=
e054655c61dec%7C1%7C1%7C637098991070426961&amp;sdata=3DfdpXMIU%2BNkMSn3RJ4X=
5AsSuMU7pbokHXltsX8ZYP9E0%3D&amp;reserved=3D0" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nor=
eferrer" shash=3D"akp5WXLGXmAI4seFSPQCboQCj/TBw9UmPG8LhlAJvVwsi/OYiwHx4Xe4g=
vVK5mmUZlSkI4AIHF6D5kE10&#43;iJ&#43;wCnfXJWFA4D&#43;oNXxJW7kokGz0C1kvrm4qmz=
DFqmxBAYrLkDKlizgAwwdmAaaOwU2gYVhuXwLByHA5Zv&#43;LmrFhw=3D" originalsrc=3D"=
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/li=
stinfo/rats</a><br>
</blockquote>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
sacm mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:sacm@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sacm@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://gcc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2=
F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fsacm&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Cdavid.wal=
termire%40nist.gov%7C92a2dcbadd8d47661b9608d76e282847%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a93=
e054655c61dec%7C1%7C1%7C637098991070436893&amp;sdata=3DokSPAqVHj9KBxPtViQdn=
ffsfhlMF4t0%2F87PXXY78fA0%3D&amp;reserved=3D0" rel=3D"noreferrer" shash=3D"=
VHhD&#43;2&#43;EMMgiZj89QwfzWDXgFgTtUNu5dCKhcmkX8S76tfyD713Loa9FkZ0U1ncvqRh=
sFw6VrR1ZoDYODHjJv3N/ZuFEmk5knCjdZZNivzTon5oiMElX01Gaz1BPMr/&#43;pLDQ&#43;7=
vE5jF43G2VUkyavDygFdsxVMAHULWJ3BZJjvc=3D" originalsrc=3D"https://www.ietf.o=
rg/mailman/listinfo/sacm">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sacm</a><br=
>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br clear=3D"all">
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<div class=3D"x_gmail_signature" dir=3D"ltr">
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
<div>Best regards,</div>
<div>Kathleen</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_BN7PR09MB2819D797B89183218BEFA823F04E0BN7PR09MB2819namp_--


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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
To: Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com>, Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] Two types of secure attestation
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Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2019 04:33:49 +0000
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To: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
Cc: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
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From: Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com>
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Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2019 06:02:55 +0100
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Subject: [Rats] TUDA. Re:  Two types of secure attestation
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On 2019-11-21 05:33, Smith, Ned wrote:
> The TUDA draft might satisfy session attestation semantics. There may be others.

Thanx Ned,

I took a peek in
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-birkholz-rats-tuda/
and I had a hard time finding similarities.

Session based attestation is not targeting constrained devices but rather powerful environments like mobile phones.
The multi-step "Protected API" and transactional operation is the core.  The session time is typically limited to 10 minutes.

Although it wasn't considered, TEEP could have been a candidate for this scheme as well:
https://cyberphone.github.io/doc/research/unified-tee-management-api.pdf

Anders

> 
> *From: *Anders Rundgren <anders.rundgren.net@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Wednesday, November 20, 2019 at 8:11 PM
> *To: *"Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
> *Cc: *"rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [Rats] Two types of secure attestation
> 
> And then you have the outcome/action of an attestation which I guess currently is "Pass" or "Fail".
> 
> As shown in https://cyberphone.github.io/doc/research/session-based-remote-attestation.pdf "Pass" may very well return a more sophisticated result, enabling a protected API in a session a bit similar to TLS.
> 
> Anders
> 
> On 2019-11-20 22:11, Smith, Ned wrote:
> 
>     There are some misrepresentations in the analysis below (I’ll comment inline below using [nms] delimiters). In general, I don’t see attestation types as being binary. Dave Thaler’s chart / truth table in another thread seems to suggest this as well given there are many different types of attesting environments (aka roots of trust).
> 
>     It might make sense to have discussion around claims that apply to attesting environments vs. claims that apply to attested environments? The important security property of attesting environments is they often are regarded as “trusted” meaning there isn’t some other attesting environment that vouches for it.
> 
>     Associating claims to attesting environments often takes a different from attestation (as represented by the roles / arch models); namely using certificates issued by product vendors (what the arch has called ‘asserters’). Certificates typically contain identity claims but could contain additional claims. Vendors could also sign assert claims by signing a document that asserts them. These could be manifests, attribute certs, identity certs with claims extensions and possibly even JWT/CWT (tokens). I haven’t seen a use case for vendor issued tokens however. Possibly PKI will transition from X.509 based to Token based at some point in the future, but I expect it will take a while. Vendors issuing (signing) manifests seems reasonable since many already create manifests for software distribution also called packages / bundles. The workflow for ‘reference values’ would not be much different than for creating a SW update manifest.
> 
>     *From: *RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org> <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com> <mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
>     *Date: *Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 6:00 PM
>     *To: *Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com> <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>
>     *Cc: *"rats@ietf.org" <mailto:rats@ietf.org> <rats@ietf.org> <mailto:rats@ietf.org>
>     *Subject: *Re: [Rats] Two types of secure attestation
> 
>     Hi Laurence,
> 
>     I read your message as there only being 2 types of attestation as opposed to what you stated in your follow on email, which better maps to the restricted set in your first message.
> 
>     Thanks,
> 
>     Kathleen
> 
>     On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 8:07 PM Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>> wrote:
> 
>         Hi Kathleen,
> 
>         Not sure I’m following your thought completely.
> 
>          From what I know of Authenticated Boot, the code signing formats are usually proprietary and idiosyncratic. The first stages of it are likely in true ROM (chip metal layer) and can be very architecture and system specific and would not use CoSWID or EAT.
> 
>         My comments below are about getting a system booted up to state where it known to behave as desired.
> 
>         Once it is up then signed CoSWIDs in EATs would come into play. They can be trusted because the attester and system SW known to have booted up correctly. Knowing who signed some SW listed in a CoSWID is only of value if you know the system SW did signature checking when it loaded the SW it listed. For example, everyone knows how Android app signing works, so listing the signer of an Android app is good useful information.
> 
>         Hope that makes sense in relation to your comment.
> 
>         LL
> 
> 
> 
> 
>             On Nov 19, 2019, at 10:35 PM, Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
>             Hi Laurence,
> 
>             Where does the code signing example fit in that you gave as it's not really an attestation, but could be useful in the format of an EAT/CWT?   This questions considers the CoSWID discussion as well as another example you had in your slides later (which was really the same) on just validating the code was signed by the expected private key?  Should that be called an attestation or just using the format for signing?  You might add claims in above what's in the CoSWID and use the nesting of EAT/subdomains as well as perform remote verification.
> 
>             Thanks,
> 
>             Kathleen
> 
>             On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 8:26 AM Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com <mailto:lgl@island-resort..com>> wrote:
> 
>                 Fundamentally, I think there are two ways that an attestation verifier comes to know that a device / entity is running approved SW and will behave as desired.
> 
>                 *TPM based*
> 
>                 ·Originates in the PC world where the end user had to be able to choose the system SW
> 
>                 [nms] Not sure what relevance to attestation should be ascribed because of how TPMs originated.
> 
>                 ·Has a TPM that performs a general measuring function
> 
>                 §Has an attestation signing key for signing measurements that is kept secret by the TPM
> 
>                 oTPM is generic as it can be used for PC’s, routers, IoT devices
> 
>                 [nms] Profiles for how to adapt TPM for use in specific platform classes is generally required.
> 
>                 ·Authenticated boot is optional
> 
>                 [nms] I think the industry also uses the term ‘secure boot’. TPM supports attestation (of the boot sequence) while a secure boot approach doesn’t imply attestation is needed/used.
> 
>                 [nms] Boot behavior is more a property of the Root of Trust for Measurement (RTM) than a TPM. There are many types of RTM technology most simply it is a boot ROM.
> 
>                 ·Uses a staged boot architecture where each stage must measure (hash) the following stage
> 
>                 [nms] Boot architecture is determined by the type of device / platform not the TPM. Staged boot sequences are fairly common across the industry. Hence the term ‘bootstrap’.
> 
>                 oHashes fed into the TPM
> 
>                 oTPM generates the attestation of the registers holding the hashes
> 
>                 ·Device cost raised by cost of TPM part
> 
>                 [nms] Not sure how this is relevant to RATS
> 
>                 ·The verifier must run a parallel set of measurements (hashes)
> 
>                 oVerifier is complex
> 
>                 [nms] as compared to what?
> 
>                 *Authenticated Boot based*
> 
>                 ·Origins in mobile phone, TEE and DRM world where the user can NOT choose the system SW
> 
>                 ·Authenticated boot is required
> 
>                 oUses a boot ROM that really is a ROM, probably in silicon (not flash), that can NOT be changed
> 
>                 [nms] This is true for platforms using a TPM as well.
> 
>                 oBoot ROM verifies the SW that is loaded, particular the top privilege (e.g. kernel) SW
> 
>                 [nms] Verification implies the ability to determine boot code integrity. This is common to platforms that use a TPM.
> 
>                 oA good implementation has anti-rollback to prevent old versions of SW from being run
> 
>                 ·Has an attestation signing key that is programmed in fuses or possibly in flash
> 
>                 [nms] This is commonly true for TPM based attestation implementations.
> 
>                 oHas a HW block that prevents access to the attestation key unless authenticated boot succeeds
> 
>                 [nms] This is also true for solutions that wish to implement secure boot using a TPM.
> 
>                 oOnly top privilege SW can use it
> 
>                 [nms] TPM attestation keys have restrictions on use as well.
> 
>                 ·Attestations are created in the top-privilege SW
> 
>                 oSimply signing a nonce proves the device is running approved SW
> 
>                 [nms] The security properties of the signing key (attestation key) are a function of the claims that the manufacturers make about the environment that protects the key. This is true for TPM as well as any other root of trust / attesting environment.
> 
>                 oEasy to add other claims in —> EAT
> 
>                 [nms] relative to what?
> 
>                 ·Device cost raised by need for secure key provisioning in the factory
> 
>                 ·Verifier is very simple
> 
>                 oJust needs to verify the signature and nonce
> 
>                 [nms] The verifier is also integrated into the boot code. These verifiers need to be provisioned with boot state policies and so forth. Secure boot is an example of the combining of Attester and Verifier roles.
> 
>                 Both provide acceptable security for their use cases and are broadly in use.
> 
>                 RATS needs to support both.
> 
>                 [nms] In what ways does RATS not support both?
> 
>                 LL
> 
>                 _______________________________________________
>                 RATS mailing list
>                 RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
>                 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
> 
> 
>             -- 
> 
>             Best regards,
> 
>             Kathleen
> 
>             _______________________________________________
>             RATS mailing list
>             RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
>             https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
> 
> 
>     -- 
> 
>     Best regards,
> 
>     Kathleen
> 
> 
> 
>     _______________________________________________
> 
>     RATS mailing list
> 
>     RATS@ietf.org  <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
> 
>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
> 
> 
> 


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To: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Two types of secure attestation
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	charset=utf-8

I wrote this email because of side conversations with people that seemed =
to be implying the second type I described was invalid and insecure with =
the implication that EAT attestations could not trusted unless a =
TPM-based attestation was done first.   This is a gross =
mischaracterization. This working group can not operate on that basis.

I also wrote to facilitate understanding of the two main technology =
orientations of participants.

I should have titled this better.=20
This is about how trust in the attester by the verifier is established.
Two popular approaches are described, but not to the exclusion of other =
approaches.

LL




> On Nov 21, 2019, at 5:11 AM, Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com> wrote:
>=20
> There are some misrepresentations in the analysis below (I=E2=80=99ll =
comment inline below using [nms] delimiters). In general, I don=E2=80=99t =
see attestation types as being binary. Dave Thaler=E2=80=99s chart / =
truth table in another thread seems to suggest this as well given there =
are many different types of attesting environments (aka roots of trust).
> =20
> It might make sense to have discussion around claims that apply to =
attesting environments vs. claims that apply to attested environments? =
The important security property of attesting environments is they often =
are regarded as =E2=80=9Ctrusted=E2=80=9D meaning there isn=E2=80=99t =
some other attesting environment that vouches for it.=20
> =20
> Associating claims to attesting environments often takes a different =
from attestation (as represented by the roles / arch models); namely =
using certificates issued by product vendors (what the arch has called =
=E2=80=98asserters=E2=80=99). Certificates typically contain identity =
claims but could contain additional claims. Vendors could also sign =
assert claims by signing a document that asserts them. These could be =
manifests, attribute certs, identity certs with claims extensions and =
possibly even JWT/CWT (tokens). I haven=E2=80=99t seen a use case for =
vendor issued tokens however. Possibly PKI will transition from X.509 =
based to Token based at some point in the future, but I expect it will =
take a while. Vendors issuing (signing) manifests seems reasonable since =
many already create manifests for software distribution also called =
packages / bundles. The workflow for =E2=80=98reference values=E2=80=99 =
would not be much different than for creating a SW update manifest.
> =20
> From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>> on =
behalf of Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com =
<mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>>
> Date: Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 6:00 PM
> To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com =
<mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>>
> Cc: "rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org>" <rats@ietf.org =
<mailto:rats@ietf.org>>
> Subject: Re: [Rats] Two types of secure attestation
> =20
> Hi Laurence,=20
> =20
> I read your message as there only being 2 types of attestation as =
opposed to what you stated in your follow on email, which better maps to =
the restricted set in your first message.
> =20
> Thanks,
> Kathleen
> =20
> On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 8:07 PM Laurence Lundblade =
<lgl@island-resort.com <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>> wrote:
>> Hi Kathleen,=20
>> =20
>> Not sure I=E2=80=99m following your thought completely.=20
>> =20
>> =46rom what I know of Authenticated Boot, the code signing formats =
are usually proprietary and idiosyncratic. The first stages of it are =
likely in true ROM (chip metal layer) and can be very architecture and =
system specific and would not use CoSWID or EAT.=20
>> =20
>> My comments below are about getting a system booted up to state where =
it known to behave as desired.
>> =20
>> Once it is up then signed CoSWIDs in EATs would come into play. They =
can be trusted because the attester and system SW known to have booted =
up correctly. Knowing who signed some SW listed in a CoSWID is only of =
value if you know the system SW did signature checking when it loaded =
the SW it listed. For example, everyone knows how Android app signing =
works, so listing the signer of an Android app is good useful =
information.
>> =20
>> Hope that makes sense in relation to your comment.
>> =20
>> LL
>> =20
>>=20
>>=20
>>> On Nov 19, 2019, at 10:35 PM, Kathleen Moriarty =
<kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com =
<mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> =20
>>> Hi Laurence,=20
>>> =20
>>> Where does the code signing example fit in that you gave as it's not =
really an attestation, but could be useful in the format of an EAT/CWT?  =
 This questions considers the CoSWID discussion as well as another =
example you had in your slides later (which was really the same) on just =
validating the code was signed by the expected private key?  Should that =
be called an attestation or just using the format for signing?  You =
might add claims in above what's in the CoSWID and use the nesting of =
EAT/subdomains as well as perform remote verification.
>>> =20
>>> Thanks,
>>> Kathleen
>>> =20
>>> On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 8:26 AM Laurence Lundblade =
<lgl@island-resort.com <mailto:lgl@island-resort..com>> wrote:
>>>> Fundamentally, I think there are two ways that an attestation =
verifier comes to know that a device / entity is running approved SW and =
will behave as desired.
>>>> =20
>>>> TPM based
>>>> =C2=B7         Originates in the PC world where the end user had to =
be able to choose the system SW
>>>> [nms] Not sure what relevance to attestation should be ascribed =
because of how TPMs originated.
>>>> =C2=B7         Has a TPM that performs a general measuring function
>>>> Has an attestation signing key for signing measurements that is =
kept secret by the TPM
>>>> o    TPM is generic as it can be used for PC=E2=80=99s, routers, =
IoT devices
>>>> [nms] Profiles for how to adapt TPM for use in specific platform =
classes is generally required.
>>>> =C2=B7         Authenticated boot is optional
>>>> [nms] I think the industry also uses the term =E2=80=98secure =
boot=E2=80=99. TPM supports attestation (of the boot sequence) while a =
secure boot approach doesn=E2=80=99t imply attestation is needed/used.
>>>> [nms] Boot behavior is more a property of the Root of Trust for =
Measurement (RTM) than a TPM. There are many types of RTM technology =
most simply it is a boot ROM.
>>>> =C2=B7         Uses a staged boot architecture where each stage =
must measure (hash) the following stage
>>>> [nms] Boot architecture is determined by the type of device / =
platform not the TPM. Staged boot sequences are fairly common across the =
industry. Hence the term =E2=80=98bootstrap=E2=80=99.
>>>> o    Hashes fed into the TPM
>>>> o    TPM generates the attestation of the registers holding the =
hashes
>>>> =C2=B7         Device cost raised by cost of TPM part
>>>> [nms] Not sure how this is relevant to RATS
>>>> =C2=B7         The verifier must run a parallel set of measurements =
(hashes)
>>>> o    Verifier is complex
>>>> [nms] as compared to what?
>>>> =20
>>>> Authenticated Boot based
>>>> =C2=B7         Origins in mobile phone, TEE and DRM world where the =
user can NOT choose the system SW
>>>> =C2=B7         Authenticated boot is required=20
>>>> o    Uses a boot ROM that really is a ROM, probably in silicon (not =
flash), that can NOT be changed
>>>> [nms] This is true for platforms using a TPM as well.
>>>> o    Boot ROM verifies the SW that is loaded, particular the top =
privilege (e.g. kernel) SW
>>>> [nms] Verification implies the ability to determine boot code =
integrity. This is common to platforms that use a TPM.
>>>> o    A good implementation has anti-rollback to prevent old =
versions of SW from being run
>>>> =C2=B7         Has an attestation signing key that is programmed in =
fuses or possibly in flash
>>>> [nms] This is commonly true for TPM based attestation =
implementations.
>>>> o    Has a HW block that prevents access to the attestation key =
unless authenticated boot succeeds
>>>> [nms] This is also true for solutions that wish to implement secure =
boot using a TPM.
>>>> o    Only top privilege SW can use it
>>>> [nms] TPM attestation keys have restrictions on use as well.
>>>> =C2=B7         Attestations are created in the top-privilege SW=20
>>>> o    Simply signing a nonce proves the device is running approved =
SW
>>>> [nms] The security properties of the signing key (attestation key) =
are a function of the claims that the manufacturers make about the =
environment that protects the key. This is true for TPM as well as any =
other root of trust / attesting environment.
>>>> o    Easy to add other claims in =E2=80=94> EAT
>>>> [nms] relative to what?
>>>> =C2=B7         Device cost raised by need for secure key =
provisioning in the factory
>>>> =C2=B7         Verifier is very simple=20
>>>> o    Just needs to verify the signature and nonce
>>>> [nms] The verifier is also integrated into the boot code. These =
verifiers need to be provisioned with boot state policies and so forth. =
Secure boot is an example of the combining of Attester and Verifier =
roles.=20
>>>> =20
>>>> Both provide acceptable security for their use cases and are =
broadly in use.
>>>> =20
>>>> RATS needs to support both.
>>>> [nms] In what ways does RATS not support both?
>>>> =20
>>>> LL
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> RATS mailing list
>>>> RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats>
>>>=20
>>> =20
>>> --=20
>>> =20
>>> Best regards,
>>> Kathleen
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> RATS mailing list
>>> RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats>
>> =20
>=20
>=20
> =20
> --=20
> =20
> Best regards,
> Kathleen


--Apple-Mail=_F17D0368-2574-4369-B932-426450C08AC4
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">I =
wrote this email because of side conversations with people that seemed =
to be implying the second type I described was invalid and insecure with =
the implication that EAT attestations could not trusted unless a =
TPM-based attestation was done first. &nbsp; This is a gross =
mischaracterization. This working group can not operate on that =
basis.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I also wrote =
to facilitate understanding of the two main technology orientations of =
participants.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I =
should have titled this better.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><ul =
class=3D"MailOutline"><li class=3D"">This is about how<i class=3D""> =
trust in the attester by the verifier </i>is established.</li><li =
class=3D"">Two popular approaches are described, but not to the =
exclusion of other approaches.</li></ul><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote=
 type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Nov 21, 2019, at 5:11 AM, =
Smith, Ned &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com" =
class=3D"">ned.smith@intel.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">There are =
some misrepresentations in the analysis below (I=E2=80=99ll comment =
inline below using [nms] delimiters). In general, I don=E2=80=99t see =
attestation types as being binary. Dave Thaler=E2=80=99s chart / truth =
table in another thread seems to suggest this as well given there are =
many different types of attesting environments (aka roots of trust).<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">It might =
make sense to have discussion around claims that apply to attesting =
environments vs. claims that apply to attested environments? The =
important security property of attesting environments is they often are =
regarded as =E2=80=9Ctrusted=E2=80=9D meaning there isn=E2=80=99t some =
other attesting environment that vouches for it.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Associating=
 claims to attesting environments often takes a different from =
attestation (as represented by the roles / arch models); namely using =
certificates issued by product vendors (what the arch has called =
=E2=80=98asserters=E2=80=99). Certificates typically contain identity =
claims but could contain additional claims. Vendors could also sign =
assert claims by signing a document that asserts them. These could be =
manifests, attribute certs, identity certs with claims extensions and =
possibly even JWT/CWT (tokens). I haven=E2=80=99t seen a use case for =
vendor issued tokens however. Possibly PKI will transition from X.509 =
based to Token based at some point in the future, but I expect it will =
take a while. Vendors issuing (signing) manifests seems reasonable since =
many already create manifests for software distribution also called =
packages / bundles. The workflow for =E2=80=98reference values=E2=80=99 =
would not be much different than for creating a SW update manifest.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"border-style: solid none =
none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); =
padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt =
0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">RATS &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on =
behalf of Kathleen Moriarty &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Date:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Tuesday, November 19, =
2019 at 6:00 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Laurence Lundblade =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>"<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">rats@ietf.org</a>" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">rats@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [Rats] Two types of =
secure attestation<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Hi Laurence,<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I read your message as there only =
being&nbsp;2 types of attestation as opposed to what you stated in your =
follow on email, which&nbsp;better maps to the restricted set in your =
first message.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">Thanks,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Kathleen<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 =
at 8:07 PM Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com"=
 style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none =
none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, =
204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: =
0in;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Hi Kathleen,<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Not sure I=E2=80=99m following your =
thought completely.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">=46rom what I know of Authenticated =
Boot, the code signing formats are usually proprietary and =
idiosyncratic. The first stages of it are likely in true ROM (chip metal =
layer) and can be very architecture and system specific and would not =
use CoSWID or EAT.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">My comments below are about getting a system =
booted up to state where it known to behave as desired.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Once it is up then signed CoSWIDs in =
EATs would come into play. They can be trusted because the attester and =
system SW known to have booted up correctly. Knowing who signed some SW =
listed in a CoSWID is only of value if you know the system SW did =
signature checking when it loaded the SW it listed. For example, =
everyone knows how Android app signing works, so listing the signer of =
an Android app is good useful information.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Hope that makes sense in relation to =
your comment.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">LL<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; =
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Nov 19, 2019, at 10:35 PM, Kathleen =
Moriarty &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt =
0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p=
 class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Hi Laurence,<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Where does the code signing example fit =
in that you gave as it's not really an attestation, but could be useful =
in the format of an EAT/CWT?&nbsp; &nbsp;This questions considers the =
CoSWID discussion as well as another example you had in your slides =
later (which was really the same) on just validating the code was signed =
by the expected private key?&nbsp; Should that be called an attestation =
or just using the format for signing?&nbsp; You might add claims =
in&nbsp;above&nbsp;what's in the CoSWID and use the nesting of =
EAT/subdomains as well as perform remote verification.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Thanks,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Kathleen<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Tue, =
Nov 19, 2019 at 8:26 AM Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort..com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none =
none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, =
204, 204); padding: 0in 0in 0in 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: =
0in;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Fundamentally, I think there are two ways that an attestation =
verifier comes to know that a device / entity is running approved SW and =
will behave as desired.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">TPM based</b><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt 1in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
text-indent: -0.25in;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Symbol;" class=3D""><span class=3D"">=C2=B7<span =
style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span></span>Originat=
es in the PC world where the end user had to be able to choose the =
system SW<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">[nms] Not sure what relevance to attestation should be =
ascribed because of how TPMs originated.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 1in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; text-indent: -0.25in;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Symbol;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"">=C2=B7<span style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 7pt; =
line-height: normal; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span></span>Has a =
TPM that performs a general measuring function<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><ul type=3D"disc" style=3D"margin-bottom: 0in;" =
class=3D""><ul type=3D"circle" style=3D"margin-bottom: 0in;" =
class=3D""><ul type=3D"square" style=3D"margin-bottom: 0in;" =
class=3D""><li class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin: 0in 0.5in 0.0001pt =
0in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Has an =
attestation signing key for signing measurements that is kept secret by =
the TPM<o:p class=3D""></o:p></li></ul></ul></ul><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt 1.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; text-indent: -0.25in;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"">o<span style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 7pt; =
line-height: normal; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span></span>TPM is =
generic as it can be used for PC=E2=80=99s, routers, IoT devices<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">[nms] =
Profiles for how to adapt TPM for use in specific platform classes is =
generally required.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt 1in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
text-indent: -0.25in;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Symbol;" class=3D""><span class=3D"">=C2=B7<span =
style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span></span>Authenti=
cated boot is optional<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">[nms] I think the industry also uses the term =E2=80=98secure =
boot=E2=80=99. TPM supports attestation (of the boot sequence) while a =
secure boot approach doesn=E2=80=99t imply attestation is =
needed/used.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">[nms] Boot behavior is more a property of the Root of Trust =
for Measurement (RTM) than a TPM. There are many types of RTM technology =
most simply it is a boot ROM.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 1in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; text-indent: -0.25in;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Symbol;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"">=C2=B7<span style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 7pt; =
line-height: normal; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span></span>Uses a =
staged boot architecture where each stage must measure (hash) the =
following stage<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">[nms] Boot architecture is determined by the type of device / =
platform not the TPM. Staged boot sequences are fairly common across the =
industry. Hence the term =E2=80=98bootstrap=E2=80=99.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 1.5in; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; text-indent: =
-0.25in;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><span class=3D"">o<span =
style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span></span>Hashes =
fed into the TPM<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt 1.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
text-indent: -0.25in;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><span class=3D"">o<span =
style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span></span>TPM =
generates the attestation of the registers holding the hashes<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 1in; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; text-indent: =
-0.25in;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Symbol;" class=3D""><span class=3D"">=C2=B7<span style=3D"font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: =
normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: &quot;Times =
New Roman&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span></span>Device =
cost raised by cost of TPM part<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">[nms] Not sure how this is relevant to =
RATS<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt =
1in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; text-indent: =
-0.25in;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Symbol;" class=3D""><span class=3D"">=C2=B7<span style=3D"font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: =
normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: &quot;Times =
New Roman&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span></span>The =
verifier must run a parallel set of measurements (hashes)<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 1.5in; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; text-indent: =
-0.25in;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><span class=3D"">o<span =
style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span></span>Verifier=
 is complex<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">[nms] as compared to what?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D"">Authenticated Boot =
based</b><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 1in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; text-indent: -0.25in;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Symbol;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"">=C2=B7<span style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 7pt; =
line-height: normal; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span></span>Origins =
in mobile phone, TEE and DRM world where the user can NOT choose the =
system SW<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt 1in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
text-indent: -0.25in;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Symbol;" class=3D""><span class=3D"">=C2=B7<span =
style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span></span>Authenti=
cated boot is required<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 1.5in; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; text-indent: =
-0.25in;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><span class=3D"">o<span =
style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span></span>Uses a =
boot ROM that really is a ROM, probably in silicon (not flash), that can =
NOT be changed<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">[nms] This is true for platforms using a TPM as well.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 1.5in; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; text-indent: =
-0.25in;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><span class=3D"">o<span =
style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span></span>Boot =
ROM verifies the SW that is loaded, particular the top privilege (e.g. =
kernel) SW<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">[nms] Verification implies the ability to determine boot code =
integrity. This is common to platforms that use a TPM.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 1.5in; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; text-indent: =
-0.25in;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><span class=3D"">o<span =
style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span></span>A good =
implementation has anti-rollback to prevent old versions of SW from =
being run<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt 1in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
text-indent: -0.25in;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Symbol;" class=3D""><span class=3D"">=C2=B7<span =
style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span></span>Has an =
attestation signing key that is programmed in fuses or possibly in =
flash<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">[nms] =
This is commonly true for TPM based attestation implementations.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 1.5in; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; text-indent: =
-0.25in;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><span class=3D"">o<span =
style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span></span>Has a =
HW block that prevents access to the attestation key unless =
authenticated boot succeeds<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">[nms] This is also true for solutions =
that wish to implement secure boot using a TPM.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 1.5in; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; text-indent: =
-0.25in;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><span class=3D"">o<span =
style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span></span>Only =
top privilege SW can use it<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">[nms] TPM attestation keys have =
restrictions on use as well.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 1in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; text-indent: -0.25in;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Symbol;" class=3D""><span =
class=3D"">=C2=B7<span style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 7pt; =
line-height: normal; font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span></span>Attestat=
ions are created in the top-privilege SW<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 1.5in; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; text-indent: =
-0.25in;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><span class=3D"">o<span =
style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span></span>Simply =
signing a nonce proves the device is running approved SW<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">[nms] The =
security properties of the signing key (attestation key) are a function =
of the claims that the manufacturers make about the environment that =
protects the key. This is true for TPM as well as any other root of =
trust / attesting environment.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 1.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; text-indent: -0.25in;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: &quot;Courier New&quot;;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D"">o<span style=3D"font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; =
font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: &quot;Times New =
Roman&quot;;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span></span>Easy =
to add other claims in =E2=80=94&gt; EAT<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">[nms] relative to what?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 1in; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; text-indent: =
-0.25in;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Symbol;" class=3D""><span class=3D"">=C2=B7<span style=3D"font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: =
normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: &quot;Times =
New Roman&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span></span>Device =
cost raised by need for secure key provisioning in the factory<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 1in; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; text-indent: =
-0.25in;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
Symbol;" class=3D""><span class=3D"">=C2=B7<span style=3D"font-style: =
normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: =
normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: &quot;Times =
New Roman&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span></span>Verifier=
 is very simple<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 1.5in; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; text-indent: =
-0.25in;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: =
&quot;Courier New&quot;;" class=3D""><span class=3D"">o<span =
style=3D"font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; =
font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></span></span>Just =
needs to verify the signature and nonce<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">[nms] The verifier is also integrated =
into the boot code. These verifiers need to be provisioned with boot =
state policies and so forth. Secure boot is an example of the combining =
of Attester and Verifier roles.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Both provide =
acceptable security for their use cases and are broadly in use.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">RATS needs to support both.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">[nms] In =
what ways does RATS not support both?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">LL<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">RATS mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">RATS@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><a=
 href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats" target=3D"_blank" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></blockquote></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><br clear=3D"all" class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">--<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Best regards,<o:p =
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0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Kathleen<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">RATS mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">RATS@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><a=
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0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
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style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br clear=3D"all" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">--<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Best regards,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Kathleen</div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div>=
<br class=3D""></div></div></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_F17D0368-2574-4369-B932-426450C08AC4--


From nobody Wed Nov 20 22:50:29 2019
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To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
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From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Two types of secure attestation
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Hi all,

to be honest there now came so many different topics up in this thread 
that I am unable to connect all the dots here.

I'd like to correct a few points of the initial statement based on 
Trusted Computing Group procedures, if that is okay:

The fundamental discrepancy I see is the differentiation between "TPM 
based" and "Authenticated Boot based", because:

=> TEE,fTPM,pTPM,and vTPM enable Measured or Authenticated Boot
    Differentiating them by the terms above seems impossible.
=> TPM based authenticated boot starts with S-CRTM (Static Code Root of
    Trust for Measurement). One type of this S-CRTM is immutable ROM
    code.
=> There is no one generalized measuring function in the TPM. There are
    32 two (in practice often 24) highly specialized measurement scopes
    that can be dynamically assigned and are quite modular (Profiles
    assign the semantics for different domains of application.
=> The TSS/TPM architecture supports layered attestation (which I think
    is what you mean by "staged boot architecture", but "each stage" does
    not simply "hash" the "next stage" it is again a dynamic and modular
    measurement framework, hashes are not "stored" but fed into TPM
    provided folding hashes (a so called "extend" primitive operation).
=> corresponding verifies do "run a parallel set of measurements".
    Complex, touring-complete, non-deterministic execution environments
    (e.g. REE or TEE) can require the "replay" of measurement logs, which
    include system event and platform specific state change measurements.

In summary, I think the basis for the comparison is a bit off :-)


IHTH,

Henk


On 21.11.19 07:14, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
> I wrote this email because of side conversations with people that seemed 
> to be implying the second type I described was invalid and insecure with 
> the implication that EAT attestations could not trusted unless a 
> TPM-based attestation was done first.   This is a gross 
> mischaracterization. This working group can not operate on that basis.
> 
> I also wrote to facilitate understanding of the two main technology 
> orientations of participants.
> 
> I should have titled this better.
> 
>   * This is about how/trust in the attester by the verifier /is established.
>   * Two popular approaches are described, but not to the exclusion of
>     other approaches.
> 
> 
> LL
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Nov 21, 2019, at 5:11 AM, Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com 
>> <mailto:ned.smith@intel.com>> wrote:
>>
>> There are some misrepresentations in the analysis below (I’ll comment 
>> inline below using [nms] delimiters). In general, I don’t see 
>> attestation types as being binary. Dave Thaler’s chart / truth table 
>> in another thread seems to suggest this as well given there are many 
>> different types of attesting environments (aka roots of trust).
>> It might make sense to have discussion around claims that apply to 
>> attesting environments vs. claims that apply to attested environments? 
>> The important security property of attesting environments is they 
>> often are regarded as “trusted” meaning there isn’t some other 
>> attesting environment that vouches for it.
>> Associating claims to attesting environments often takes a different 
>> from attestation (as represented by the roles / arch models); namely 
>> using certificates issued by product vendors (what the arch has called 
>> ‘asserters’). Certificates typically contain identity claims but could 
>> contain additional claims. Vendors could also sign assert claims by 
>> signing a document that asserts them. These could be manifests, 
>> attribute certs, identity certs with claims extensions and possibly 
>> even JWT/CWT (tokens). I haven’t seen a use case for vendor issued 
>> tokens however. Possibly PKI will transition from X.509 based to Token 
>> based at some point in the future, but I expect it will take a while. 
>> Vendors issuing (signing) manifests seems reasonable since many 
>> already create manifests for software distribution also called 
>> packages / bundles. The workflow for ‘reference values’ would not be 
>> much different than for creating a SW update manifest.
>> *From:*RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>> on 
>> behalf of Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com 
>> <mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>>
>> *Date:*Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 6:00 PM
>> *To:*Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com 
>> <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>>
>> *Cc:*"rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org>" <rats@ietf.org 
>> <mailto:rats@ietf.org>>
>> *Subject:*Re: [Rats] Two types of secure attestation
>> Hi Laurence,
>> I read your message as there only being 2 types of attestation as 
>> opposed to what you stated in your follow on email, which better maps 
>> to the restricted set in your first message.
>> Thanks,
>> Kathleen
>> On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 8:07 PM Laurence Lundblade 
>> <lgl@island-resort.com <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>> wrote:
>>> Hi Kathleen,
>>> Not sure I’m following your thought completely.
>>> From what I know of Authenticated Boot, the code signing formats are 
>>> usually proprietary and idiosyncratic. The first stages of it are 
>>> likely in true ROM (chip metal layer) and can be very architecture 
>>> and system specific and would not use CoSWID or EAT.
>>> My comments below are about getting a system booted up to state where 
>>> it known to behave as desired.
>>> Once it is up then signed CoSWIDs in EATs would come into play. They 
>>> can be trusted because the attester and system SW known to have 
>>> booted up correctly. Knowing who signed some SW listed in a CoSWID is 
>>> only of value if you know the system SW did signature checking when 
>>> it loaded the SW it listed. For example, everyone knows how Android 
>>> app signing works, so listing the signer of an Android app is good 
>>> useful information.
>>> Hope that makes sense in relation to your comment.
>>> LL
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Nov 19, 2019, at 10:35 PM, Kathleen Moriarty 
>>>> <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com 
>>>> <mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> Hi Laurence,
>>>> Where does the code signing example fit in that you gave as it's not 
>>>> really an attestation, but could be useful in the format of an 
>>>> EAT/CWT?   This questions considers the CoSWID discussion as well as 
>>>> another example you had in your slides later (which was really the 
>>>> same) on just validating the code was signed by the expected private 
>>>> key?  Should that be called an attestation or just using the format 
>>>> for signing?  You might add claims in above what's in the CoSWID and 
>>>> use the nesting of EAT/subdomains as well as perform remote 
>>>> verification.
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Kathleen
>>>> On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 8:26 AM Laurence Lundblade 
>>>> <lgl@island-resort.com <mailto:lgl@island-resort..com>> wrote:
>>>>> Fundamentally, I think there are two ways that an attestation 
>>>>> verifier comes to know that a device / entity is running approved 
>>>>> SW and will behave as desired.
>>>>> *TPM based*
>>>>> ·Originates in the PC world where the end user had to be able to 
>>>>> choose the system SW
>>>>> [nms] Not sure what relevance to attestation should be ascribed 
>>>>> because of how TPMs originated.
>>>>> ·Has a TPM that performs a general measuring function
>>>>>
>>>>>           + Has an attestation signing key for signing measurements
>>>>>             that is kept secret by the TPM
>>>>>
>>>>> oTPM is generic as it can be used for PC’s, routers, IoT devices
>>>>> [nms] Profiles for how to adapt TPM for use in specific platform 
>>>>> classes is generally required.
>>>>> ·Authenticated boot is optional
>>>>> [nms] I think the industry also uses the term ‘secure boot’. TPM 
>>>>> supports attestation (of the boot sequence) while a secure boot 
>>>>> approach doesn’t imply attestation is needed/used.
>>>>> [nms] Boot behavior is more a property of the Root of Trust for 
>>>>> Measurement (RTM) than a TPM. There are many types of RTM 
>>>>> technology most simply it is a boot ROM.
>>>>> ·Uses a staged boot architecture where each stage must measure 
>>>>> (hash) the following stage
>>>>> [nms] Boot architecture is determined by the type of device / 
>>>>> platform not the TPM. Staged boot sequences are fairly common 
>>>>> across the industry. Hence the term ‘bootstrap’.
>>>>> oHashes fed into the TPM
>>>>> oTPM generates the attestation of the registers holding the hashes
>>>>> ·Device cost raised by cost of TPM part
>>>>> [nms] Not sure how this is relevant to RATS
>>>>> ·The verifier must run a parallel set of measurements (hashes)
>>>>> oVerifier is complex
>>>>> [nms] as compared to what?
>>>>> *Authenticated Boot based*
>>>>> ·Origins in mobile phone, TEE and DRM world where the user can NOT 
>>>>> choose the system SW
>>>>> ·Authenticated boot is required
>>>>> oUses a boot ROM that really is a ROM, probably in silicon (not 
>>>>> flash), that can NOT be changed
>>>>> [nms] This is true for platforms using a TPM as well.
>>>>> oBoot ROM verifies the SW that is loaded, particular the top 
>>>>> privilege (e.g. kernel) SW
>>>>> [nms] Verification implies the ability to determine boot code 
>>>>> integrity. This is common to platforms that use a TPM.
>>>>> oA good implementation has anti-rollback to prevent old versions of 
>>>>> SW from being run
>>>>> ·Has an attestation signing key that is programmed in fuses or 
>>>>> possibly in flash
>>>>> [nms] This is commonly true for TPM based attestation implementations.
>>>>> oHas a HW block that prevents access to the attestation key unless 
>>>>> authenticated boot succeeds
>>>>> [nms] This is also true for solutions that wish to implement secure 
>>>>> boot using a TPM.
>>>>> oOnly top privilege SW can use it
>>>>> [nms] TPM attestation keys have restrictions on use as well.
>>>>> ·Attestations are created in the top-privilege SW
>>>>> oSimply signing a nonce proves the device is running approved SW
>>>>> [nms] The security properties of the signing key (attestation key) 
>>>>> are a function of the claims that the manufacturers make about the 
>>>>> environment that protects the key. This is true for TPM as well as 
>>>>> any other root of trust / attesting environment.
>>>>> oEasy to add other claims in —> EAT
>>>>> [nms] relative to what?
>>>>> ·Device cost raised by need for secure key provisioning in the factory
>>>>> ·Verifier is very simple
>>>>> oJust needs to verify the signature and nonce
>>>>> [nms] The verifier is also integrated into the boot code. These 
>>>>> verifiers need to be provisioned with boot state policies and so 
>>>>> forth. Secure boot is an example of the combining of Attester and 
>>>>> Verifier roles.
>>>>> Both provide acceptable security for their use cases and are 
>>>>> broadly in use.
>>>>> RATS needs to support both.
>>>>> [nms] In what ways does RATS not support both?
>>>>> LL
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> RATS mailing list
>>>>> RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Best regards,
>>>> Kathleen
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> RATS mailing list
>>>> RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>>
>> --
>> Best regards,
>> Kathleen
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
> 


From nobody Wed Nov 20 23:11:13 2019
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Two types of secure attestation
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What I really care about here that this working group accepts the =
non-TPM style of establishing trust in the attester by the verifier as =
having equal stature with TPM style.

In the non-TPM style there is no need for any back and forth protocol =
and no need for the verifier to do anything with measurements taken =
during boot. The verifier just needs to know that it is of this non-TPM =
style and attestations are immediately trusted.

(It would be cool and useful to line up all the terminology and =
taxonomy, but that seems like about six months work, so I=E2=80=99m not =
after that, so no line-by-line replies from me)

LL



> On Nov 21, 2019, at 2:50 PM, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
>=20
> Hi all,
>=20
> to be honest there now came so many different topics up in this thread =
that I am unable to connect all the dots here.
>=20
> I'd like to correct a few points of the initial statement based on =
Trusted Computing Group procedures, if that is okay:
>=20
> The fundamental discrepancy I see is the differentiation between "TPM =
based" and "Authenticated Boot based", because:
>=20
> =3D> TEE,fTPM,pTPM,and vTPM enable Measured or Authenticated Boot
>   Differentiating them by the terms above seems impossible.
> =3D> TPM based authenticated boot starts with S-CRTM (Static Code Root =
of
>   Trust for Measurement). One type of this S-CRTM is immutable ROM
>   code.
> =3D> There is no one generalized measuring function in the TPM. There =
are
>   32 two (in practice often 24) highly specialized measurement scopes
>   that can be dynamically assigned and are quite modular (Profiles
>   assign the semantics for different domains of application.
> =3D> The TSS/TPM architecture supports layered attestation (which I =
think
>   is what you mean by "staged boot architecture", but "each stage" =
does
>   not simply "hash" the "next stage" it is again a dynamic and modular
>   measurement framework, hashes are not "stored" but fed into TPM
>   provided folding hashes (a so called "extend" primitive operation).
> =3D> corresponding verifies do "run a parallel set of measurements".
>   Complex, touring-complete, non-deterministic execution environments
>   (e.g. REE or TEE) can require the "replay" of measurement logs, =
which
>   include system event and platform specific state change =
measurements.
>=20
> In summary, I think the basis for the comparison is a bit off :-)
>=20
>=20
> IHTH,
>=20
> Henk
>=20
>=20
> On 21.11.19 07:14, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>> I wrote this email because of side conversations with people that =
seemed to be implying the second type I described was invalid and =
insecure with the implication that EAT attestations could not trusted =
unless a TPM-based attestation was done first.   This is a gross =
mischaracterization. This working group can not operate on that basis.
>> I also wrote to facilitate understanding of the two main technology =
orientations of participants.
>> I should have titled this better.
>>  * This is about how/trust in the attester by the verifier /is =
established.
>>  * Two popular approaches are described, but not to the exclusion of
>>    other approaches.
>> LL
>>> On Nov 21, 2019, at 5:11 AM, Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com =
<mailto:ned.smith@intel.com>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> There are some misrepresentations in the analysis below (I=E2=80=99ll =
comment inline below using [nms] delimiters). In general, I don=E2=80=99t =
see attestation types as being binary. Dave Thaler=E2=80=99s chart / =
truth table in another thread seems to suggest this as well given there =
are many different types of attesting environments (aka roots of trust).
>>> It might make sense to have discussion around claims that apply to =
attesting environments vs. claims that apply to attested environments? =
The important security property of attesting environments is they often =
are regarded as =E2=80=9Ctrusted=E2=80=9D meaning there isn=E2=80=99t =
some other attesting environment that vouches for it.
>>> Associating claims to attesting environments often takes a different =
from attestation (as represented by the roles / arch models); namely =
using certificates issued by product vendors (what the arch has called =
=E2=80=98asserters=E2=80=99). Certificates typically contain identity =
claims but could contain additional claims. Vendors could also sign =
assert claims by signing a document that asserts them. These could be =
manifests, attribute certs, identity certs with claims extensions and =
possibly even JWT/CWT (tokens). I haven=E2=80=99t seen a use case for =
vendor issued tokens however. Possibly PKI will transition from X.509 =
based to Token based at some point in the future, but I expect it will =
take a while. Vendors issuing (signing) manifests seems reasonable since =
many already create manifests for software distribution also called =
packages / bundles. The workflow for =E2=80=98reference values=E2=80=99 =
would not be much different than for creating a SW update manifest.
>>> *From:*RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>> =
on behalf of Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com =
<mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>>
>>> *Date:*Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 6:00 PM
>>> *To:*Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com =
<mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>>
>>> *Cc:*"rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org>" <rats@ietf.org =
<mailto:rats@ietf.org>>
>>> *Subject:*Re: [Rats] Two types of secure attestation
>>> Hi Laurence,
>>> I read your message as there only being 2 types of attestation as =
opposed to what you stated in your follow on email, which better maps to =
the restricted set in your first message.
>>> Thanks,
>>> Kathleen
>>> On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 8:07 PM Laurence Lundblade =
<lgl@island-resort.com <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>> wrote:
>>>> Hi Kathleen,
>>>> Not sure I=E2=80=99m following your thought completely.
>>>> =46rom what I know of Authenticated Boot, the code signing formats =
are usually proprietary and idiosyncratic. The first stages of it are =
likely in true ROM (chip metal layer) and can be very architecture and =
system specific and would not use CoSWID or EAT.
>>>> My comments below are about getting a system booted up to state =
where it known to behave as desired.
>>>> Once it is up then signed CoSWIDs in EATs would come into play. =
They can be trusted because the attester and system SW known to have =
booted up correctly. Knowing who signed some SW listed in a CoSWID is =
only of value if you know the system SW did signature checking when it =
loaded the SW it listed. For example, everyone knows how Android app =
signing works, so listing the signer of an Android app is good useful =
information.
>>>> Hope that makes sense in relation to your comment.
>>>> LL
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>> On Nov 19, 2019, at 10:35 PM, Kathleen Moriarty =
<kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com =
<mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>> Hi Laurence,
>>>>> Where does the code signing example fit in that you gave as it's =
not really an attestation, but could be useful in the format of an =
EAT/CWT?   This questions considers the CoSWID discussion as well as =
another example you had in your slides later (which was really the same) =
on just validating the code was signed by the expected private key?  =
Should that be called an attestation or just using the format for =
signing?  You might add claims in above what's in the CoSWID and use the =
nesting of EAT/subdomains as well as perform remote verification.
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Kathleen
>>>>> On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 8:26 AM Laurence Lundblade =
<lgl@island-resort.com <mailto:lgl@island-resort..com>> wrote:
>>>>>> Fundamentally, I think there are two ways that an attestation =
verifier comes to know that a device / entity is running approved SW and =
will behave as desired.
>>>>>> *TPM based*
>>>>>> =C2=B7Originates in the PC world where the end user had to be =
able to choose the system SW
>>>>>> [nms] Not sure what relevance to attestation should be ascribed =
because of how TPMs originated.
>>>>>> =C2=B7Has a TPM that performs a general measuring function
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>          + Has an attestation signing key for signing =
measurements
>>>>>>            that is kept secret by the TPM
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> oTPM is generic as it can be used for PC=E2=80=99s, routers, IoT =
devices
>>>>>> [nms] Profiles for how to adapt TPM for use in specific platform =
classes is generally required.
>>>>>> =C2=B7Authenticated boot is optional
>>>>>> [nms] I think the industry also uses the term =E2=80=98secure =
boot=E2=80=99. TPM supports attestation (of the boot sequence) while a =
secure boot approach doesn=E2=80=99t imply attestation is needed/used.
>>>>>> [nms] Boot behavior is more a property of the Root of Trust for =
Measurement (RTM) than a TPM. There are many types of RTM technology =
most simply it is a boot ROM.
>>>>>> =C2=B7Uses a staged boot architecture where each stage must =
measure (hash) the following stage
>>>>>> [nms] Boot architecture is determined by the type of device / =
platform not the TPM. Staged boot sequences are fairly common across the =
industry. Hence the term =E2=80=98bootstrap=E2=80=99.
>>>>>> oHashes fed into the TPM
>>>>>> oTPM generates the attestation of the registers holding the =
hashes
>>>>>> =C2=B7Device cost raised by cost of TPM part
>>>>>> [nms] Not sure how this is relevant to RATS
>>>>>> =C2=B7The verifier must run a parallel set of measurements =
(hashes)
>>>>>> oVerifier is complex
>>>>>> [nms] as compared to what?
>>>>>> *Authenticated Boot based*
>>>>>> =C2=B7Origins in mobile phone, TEE and DRM world where the user =
can NOT choose the system SW
>>>>>> =C2=B7Authenticated boot is required
>>>>>> oUses a boot ROM that really is a ROM, probably in silicon (not =
flash), that can NOT be changed
>>>>>> [nms] This is true for platforms using a TPM as well.
>>>>>> oBoot ROM verifies the SW that is loaded, particular the top =
privilege (e.g. kernel) SW
>>>>>> [nms] Verification implies the ability to determine boot code =
integrity. This is common to platforms that use a TPM.
>>>>>> oA good implementation has anti-rollback to prevent old versions =
of SW from being run
>>>>>> =C2=B7Has an attestation signing key that is programmed in fuses =
or possibly in flash
>>>>>> [nms] This is commonly true for TPM based attestation =
implementations.
>>>>>> oHas a HW block that prevents access to the attestation key =
unless authenticated boot succeeds
>>>>>> [nms] This is also true for solutions that wish to implement =
secure boot using a TPM.
>>>>>> oOnly top privilege SW can use it
>>>>>> [nms] TPM attestation keys have restrictions on use as well.
>>>>>> =C2=B7Attestations are created in the top-privilege SW
>>>>>> oSimply signing a nonce proves the device is running approved SW
>>>>>> [nms] The security properties of the signing key (attestation =
key) are a function of the claims that the manufacturers make about the =
environment that protects the key. This is true for TPM as well as any =
other root of trust / attesting environment.
>>>>>> oEasy to add other claims in =E2=80=94> EAT
>>>>>> [nms] relative to what?
>>>>>> =C2=B7Device cost raised by need for secure key provisioning in =
the factory
>>>>>> =C2=B7Verifier is very simple
>>>>>> oJust needs to verify the signature and nonce
>>>>>> [nms] The verifier is also integrated into the boot code. These =
verifiers need to be provisioned with boot state policies and so forth. =
Secure boot is an example of the combining of Attester and Verifier =
roles.
>>>>>> Both provide acceptable security for their use cases and are =
broadly in use.
>>>>>> RATS needs to support both.
>>>>>> [nms] In what ways does RATS not support both?
>>>>>> LL
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> RATS mailing list
>>>>>> RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>>>>>=20
>>>>> --
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>> Kathleen
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> RATS mailing list
>>>>> RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>>>=20
>>> --
>>> Best regards,
>>> Kathleen
>> _______________________________________________
>> RATS mailing list
>> RATS@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats


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To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
CC: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
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From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Two types of secure attestation
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Hi Laurence,

I think that is a way better scope (maybe this thread in itself had some 
scope creep) to describe it.

I think it is rather obvious that the complexity of the appraisal 
process (the thing the Verifier does) depends on what you want to verify 
and how complex the evidence and the Attester are.

If a simple Attester (such as a small thing, e.g. Car ECU, or 
Constrained Node Device) conducts authenticated boot, Attestation 
Evidence is fairly simple. It could be a single hash (the measurement 
after boot), or the most relevant part could be a signature based on a 
shielded secret in the thing. Both lead to very simple Attestation 
Evidence content and to very simple appraisal processes.

The more thorough your measurements and the more complex the Attester, 
the more complex is the appraisal process. This is true for every RATS - 
TPM, fTPM or other TEE.

Maybe this is single scope is a better way to describe the matter at hand?

Viele Grüße,

Henk



On 21.11.19 08:11, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
> What I really care about here that this working group accepts the non-TPM style of establishing trust in the attester by the verifier as having equal stature with TPM style.
> 
> In the non-TPM style there is no need for any back and forth protocol and no need for the verifier to do anything with measurements taken during boot. The verifier just needs to know that it is of this non-TPM style and attestations are immediately trusted.
> 
> (It would be cool and useful to line up all the terminology and taxonomy, but that seems like about six months work, so I’m not after that, so no line-by-line replies from me)
> 
> LL
> 
> 
> 
>> On Nov 21, 2019, at 2:50 PM, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> to be honest there now came so many different topics up in this thread that I am unable to connect all the dots here.
>>
>> I'd like to correct a few points of the initial statement based on Trusted Computing Group procedures, if that is okay:
>>
>> The fundamental discrepancy I see is the differentiation between "TPM based" and "Authenticated Boot based", because:
>>
>> => TEE,fTPM,pTPM,and vTPM enable Measured or Authenticated Boot
>>    Differentiating them by the terms above seems impossible.
>> => TPM based authenticated boot starts with S-CRTM (Static Code Root of
>>    Trust for Measurement). One type of this S-CRTM is immutable ROM
>>    code.
>> => There is no one generalized measuring function in the TPM. There are
>>    32 two (in practice often 24) highly specialized measurement scopes
>>    that can be dynamically assigned and are quite modular (Profiles
>>    assign the semantics for different domains of application.
>> => The TSS/TPM architecture supports layered attestation (which I think
>>    is what you mean by "staged boot architecture", but "each stage" does
>>    not simply "hash" the "next stage" it is again a dynamic and modular
>>    measurement framework, hashes are not "stored" but fed into TPM
>>    provided folding hashes (a so called "extend" primitive operation).
>> => corresponding verifies do "run a parallel set of measurements".
>>    Complex, touring-complete, non-deterministic execution environments
>>    (e.g. REE or TEE) can require the "replay" of measurement logs, which
>>    include system event and platform specific state change measurements.
>>
>> In summary, I think the basis for the comparison is a bit off :-)
>>
>>
>> IHTH,
>>
>> Henk
>>
>>
>> On 21.11.19 07:14, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>>> I wrote this email because of side conversations with people that seemed to be implying the second type I described was invalid and insecure with the implication that EAT attestations could not trusted unless a TPM-based attestation was done first.   This is a gross mischaracterization. This working group can not operate on that basis.
>>> I also wrote to facilitate understanding of the two main technology orientations of participants.
>>> I should have titled this better.
>>>   * This is about how/trust in the attester by the verifier /is established.
>>>   * Two popular approaches are described, but not to the exclusion of
>>>     other approaches.
>>> LL
>>>> On Nov 21, 2019, at 5:11 AM, Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com <mailto:ned.smith@intel.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> There are some misrepresentations in the analysis below (I’ll comment inline below using [nms] delimiters). In general, I don’t see attestation types as being binary. Dave Thaler’s chart / truth table in another thread seems to suggest this as well given there are many different types of attesting environments (aka roots of trust).
>>>> It might make sense to have discussion around claims that apply to attesting environments vs. claims that apply to attested environments? The important security property of attesting environments is they often are regarded as “trusted” meaning there isn’t some other attesting environment that vouches for it.
>>>> Associating claims to attesting environments often takes a different from attestation (as represented by the roles / arch models); namely using certificates issued by product vendors (what the arch has called ‘asserters’). Certificates typically contain identity claims but could contain additional claims. Vendors could also sign assert claims by signing a document that asserts them. These could be manifests, attribute certs, identity certs with claims extensions and possibly even JWT/CWT (tokens). I haven’t seen a use case for vendor issued tokens however. Possibly PKI will transition from X.509 based to Token based at some point in the future, but I expect it will take a while. Vendors issuing (signing) manifests seems reasonable since many already create manifests for software distribution also called packages / bundles. The workflow for ‘reference values’ would not be much different than for creating a SW update manifest.
>>>> *From:*RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>>
>>>> *Date:*Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 6:00 PM
>>>> *To:*Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>>
>>>> *Cc:*"rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org>" <rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org>>
>>>> *Subject:*Re: [Rats] Two types of secure attestation
>>>> Hi Laurence,
>>>> I read your message as there only being 2 types of attestation as opposed to what you stated in your follow on email, which better maps to the restricted set in your first message.
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Kathleen
>>>> On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 8:07 PM Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>> wrote:
>>>>> Hi Kathleen,
>>>>> Not sure I’m following your thought completely.
>>>>>  From what I know of Authenticated Boot, the code signing formats are usually proprietary and idiosyncratic. The first stages of it are likely in true ROM (chip metal layer) and can be very architecture and system specific and would not use CoSWID or EAT.
>>>>> My comments below are about getting a system booted up to state where it known to behave as desired.
>>>>> Once it is up then signed CoSWIDs in EATs would come into play. They can be trusted because the attester and system SW known to have booted up correctly. Knowing who signed some SW listed in a CoSWID is only of value if you know the system SW did signature checking when it loaded the SW it listed. For example, everyone knows how Android app signing works, so listing the signer of an Android app is good useful information.
>>>>> Hope that makes sense in relation to your comment.
>>>>> LL
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Nov 19, 2019, at 10:35 PM, Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Laurence,
>>>>>> Where does the code signing example fit in that you gave as it's not really an attestation, but could be useful in the format of an EAT/CWT?   This questions considers the CoSWID discussion as well as another example you had in your slides later (which was really the same) on just validating the code was signed by the expected private key?  Should that be called an attestation or just using the format for signing?  You might add claims in above what's in the CoSWID and use the nesting of EAT/subdomains as well as perform remote verification.
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Kathleen
>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 8:26 AM Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com <mailto:lgl@island-resort..com>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Fundamentally, I think there are two ways that an attestation verifier comes to know that a device / entity is running approved SW and will behave as desired.
>>>>>>> *TPM based*
>>>>>>> ·Originates in the PC world where the end user had to be able to choose the system SW
>>>>>>> [nms] Not sure what relevance to attestation should be ascribed because of how TPMs originated.
>>>>>>> ·Has a TPM that performs a general measuring function
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>           + Has an attestation signing key for signing measurements
>>>>>>>             that is kept secret by the TPM
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> oTPM is generic as it can be used for PC’s, routers, IoT devices
>>>>>>> [nms] Profiles for how to adapt TPM for use in specific platform classes is generally required.
>>>>>>> ·Authenticated boot is optional
>>>>>>> [nms] I think the industry also uses the term ‘secure boot’. TPM supports attestation (of the boot sequence) while a secure boot approach doesn’t imply attestation is needed/used.
>>>>>>> [nms] Boot behavior is more a property of the Root of Trust for Measurement (RTM) than a TPM. There are many types of RTM technology most simply it is a boot ROM.
>>>>>>> ·Uses a staged boot architecture where each stage must measure (hash) the following stage
>>>>>>> [nms] Boot architecture is determined by the type of device / platform not the TPM. Staged boot sequences are fairly common across the industry. Hence the term ‘bootstrap’.
>>>>>>> oHashes fed into the TPM
>>>>>>> oTPM generates the attestation of the registers holding the hashes
>>>>>>> ·Device cost raised by cost of TPM part
>>>>>>> [nms] Not sure how this is relevant to RATS
>>>>>>> ·The verifier must run a parallel set of measurements (hashes)
>>>>>>> oVerifier is complex
>>>>>>> [nms] as compared to what?
>>>>>>> *Authenticated Boot based*
>>>>>>> ·Origins in mobile phone, TEE and DRM world where the user can NOT choose the system SW
>>>>>>> ·Authenticated boot is required
>>>>>>> oUses a boot ROM that really is a ROM, probably in silicon (not flash), that can NOT be changed
>>>>>>> [nms] This is true for platforms using a TPM as well.
>>>>>>> oBoot ROM verifies the SW that is loaded, particular the top privilege (e.g. kernel) SW
>>>>>>> [nms] Verification implies the ability to determine boot code integrity. This is common to platforms that use a TPM.
>>>>>>> oA good implementation has anti-rollback to prevent old versions of SW from being run
>>>>>>> ·Has an attestation signing key that is programmed in fuses or possibly in flash
>>>>>>> [nms] This is commonly true for TPM based attestation implementations.
>>>>>>> oHas a HW block that prevents access to the attestation key unless authenticated boot succeeds
>>>>>>> [nms] This is also true for solutions that wish to implement secure boot using a TPM.
>>>>>>> oOnly top privilege SW can use it
>>>>>>> [nms] TPM attestation keys have restrictions on use as well.
>>>>>>> ·Attestations are created in the top-privilege SW
>>>>>>> oSimply signing a nonce proves the device is running approved SW
>>>>>>> [nms] The security properties of the signing key (attestation key) are a function of the claims that the manufacturers make about the environment that protects the key. This is true for TPM as well as any other root of trust / attesting environment.
>>>>>>> oEasy to add other claims in —> EAT
>>>>>>> [nms] relative to what?
>>>>>>> ·Device cost raised by need for secure key provisioning in the factory
>>>>>>> ·Verifier is very simple
>>>>>>> oJust needs to verify the signature and nonce
>>>>>>> [nms] The verifier is also integrated into the boot code. These verifiers need to be provisioned with boot state policies and so forth. Secure boot is an example of the combining of Attester and Verifier roles.
>>>>>>> Both provide acceptable security for their use cases and are broadly in use.
>>>>>>> RATS needs to support both.
>>>>>>> [nms] In what ways does RATS not support both?
>>>>>>> LL
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> RATS mailing list
>>>>>>> RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>> Kathleen
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> RATS mailing list
>>>>>> RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Best regards,
>>>> Kathleen
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> RATS mailing list
>>> RATS@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> RATS mailing list
>> RATS@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
> 


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To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/b5LwWwoiGeFz7yZJOJuJHqvCrTw>
Subject: Re: [Rats] Two types of secure attestation
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In the non-TPM style attestation I=E2=80=99m describing, no measurement =
is transmitted from the attester to the verifier. It is not necessary to =
send one. The trust in the attester is automatic, immediate, real and =
highly valuable.

This is why the sample simple EAT in the draft there is no measurement =
in the EAT attestation evidence:

{
   / nonce (cti) /            7:h'948f8860d13a463e8e',
   / UEID /                   =
8:h'0198f50a4ff6c05861c8860d13a638ea4fe2f',
   / boot_state /            12:{true, true, true, true, false}
   / time stamp (iat) /       6:1526542894,
}

In this non-TPM style attestation there is hashing of code booted as =
part of secure boot implemented in the boot ROM, but that all happens =
inside the boot sequence and never manifests outside of it (I also do =
not think it is helpful to refer to this part of the boot ROM as a =
=E2=80=9Cverifier=E2=80=9D in this context because it is not the same as =
a RATS verifier that produces attestation evidence, is remote and such).

LL


> On Nov 21, 2019, at 3:22 PM, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
>=20
> Hi Laurence,
>=20
> I think that is a way better scope (maybe this thread in itself had =
some scope creep) to describe it.
>=20
> I think it is rather obvious that the complexity of the appraisal =
process (the thing the Verifier does) depends on what you want to verify =
and how complex the evidence and the Attester are.
>=20
> If a simple Attester (such as a small thing, e.g. Car ECU, or =
Constrained Node Device) conducts authenticated boot, Attestation =
Evidence is fairly simple. It could be a single hash (the measurement =
after boot), or the most relevant part could be a signature based on a =
shielded secret in the thing. Both lead to very simple Attestation =
Evidence content and to very simple appraisal processes.
>=20
> The more thorough your measurements and the more complex the Attester, =
the more complex is the appraisal process. This is true for every RATS - =
TPM, fTPM or other TEE.
>=20
> Maybe this is single scope is a better way to describe the matter at =
hand?
>=20
> Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>=20
> Henk
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On 21.11.19 08:11, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>> What I really care about here that this working group accepts the =
non-TPM style of establishing trust in the attester by the verifier as =
having equal stature with TPM style.
>> In the non-TPM style there is no need for any back and forth protocol =
and no need for the verifier to do anything with measurements taken =
during boot. The verifier just needs to know that it is of this non-TPM =
style and attestations are immediately trusted.
>> (It would be cool and useful to line up all the terminology and =
taxonomy, but that seems like about six months work, so I=E2=80=99m not =
after that, so no line-by-line replies from me)
>> LL
>>> On Nov 21, 2019, at 2:50 PM, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Hi all,
>>>=20
>>> to be honest there now came so many different topics up in this =
thread that I am unable to connect all the dots here.
>>>=20
>>> I'd like to correct a few points of the initial statement based on =
Trusted Computing Group procedures, if that is okay:
>>>=20
>>> The fundamental discrepancy I see is the differentiation between =
"TPM based" and "Authenticated Boot based", because:
>>>=20
>>> =3D> TEE,fTPM,pTPM,and vTPM enable Measured or Authenticated Boot
>>>   Differentiating them by the terms above seems impossible.
>>> =3D> TPM based authenticated boot starts with S-CRTM (Static Code =
Root of
>>>   Trust for Measurement). One type of this S-CRTM is immutable ROM
>>>   code.
>>> =3D> There is no one generalized measuring function in the TPM. =
There are
>>>   32 two (in practice often 24) highly specialized measurement =
scopes
>>>   that can be dynamically assigned and are quite modular (Profiles
>>>   assign the semantics for different domains of application.
>>> =3D> The TSS/TPM architecture supports layered attestation (which I =
think
>>>   is what you mean by "staged boot architecture", but "each stage" =
does
>>>   not simply "hash" the "next stage" it is again a dynamic and =
modular
>>>   measurement framework, hashes are not "stored" but fed into TPM
>>>   provided folding hashes (a so called "extend" primitive =
operation).
>>> =3D> corresponding verifies do "run a parallel set of measurements".
>>>   Complex, touring-complete, non-deterministic execution =
environments
>>>   (e.g. REE or TEE) can require the "replay" of measurement logs, =
which
>>>   include system event and platform specific state change =
measurements.
>>>=20
>>> In summary, I think the basis for the comparison is a bit off :-)
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> IHTH,
>>>=20
>>> Henk
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On 21.11.19 07:14, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>>>> I wrote this email because of side conversations with people that =
seemed to be implying the second type I described was invalid and =
insecure with the implication that EAT attestations could not trusted =
unless a TPM-based attestation was done first.   This is a gross =
mischaracterization. This working group can not operate on that basis.
>>>> I also wrote to facilitate understanding of the two main technology =
orientations of participants.
>>>> I should have titled this better.
>>>>  * This is about how/trust in the attester by the verifier /is =
established.
>>>>  * Two popular approaches are described, but not to the exclusion =
of
>>>>    other approaches.
>>>> LL
>>>>> On Nov 21, 2019, at 5:11 AM, Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com =
<mailto:ned.smith@intel.com>> wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> There are some misrepresentations in the analysis below (I=E2=80=99l=
l comment inline below using [nms] delimiters). In general, I don=E2=80=99=
t see attestation types as being binary. Dave Thaler=E2=80=99s chart / =
truth table in another thread seems to suggest this as well given there =
are many different types of attesting environments (aka roots of trust).
>>>>> It might make sense to have discussion around claims that apply to =
attesting environments vs. claims that apply to attested environments? =
The important security property of attesting environments is they often =
are regarded as =E2=80=9Ctrusted=E2=80=9D meaning there isn=E2=80=99t =
some other attesting environment that vouches for it.
>>>>> Associating claims to attesting environments often takes a =
different from attestation (as represented by the roles / arch models); =
namely using certificates issued by product vendors (what the arch has =
called =E2=80=98asserters=E2=80=99). Certificates typically contain =
identity claims but could contain additional claims. Vendors could also =
sign assert claims by signing a document that asserts them. These could =
be manifests, attribute certs, identity certs with claims extensions and =
possibly even JWT/CWT (tokens). I haven=E2=80=99t seen a use case for =
vendor issued tokens however. Possibly PKI will transition from X.509 =
based to Token based at some point in the future, but I expect it will =
take a while. Vendors issuing (signing) manifests seems reasonable since =
many already create manifests for software distribution also called =
packages / bundles. The workflow for =E2=80=98reference values=E2=80=99 =
would not be much different than for creating a SW update manifest.
>>>>> *From:*RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>> =
on behalf of Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com =
<mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>>
>>>>> *Date:*Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 6:00 PM
>>>>> *To:*Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com =
<mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>>
>>>>> *Cc:*"rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org>" <rats@ietf.org =
<mailto:rats@ietf.org>>
>>>>> *Subject:*Re: [Rats] Two types of secure attestation
>>>>> Hi Laurence,
>>>>> I read your message as there only being 2 types of attestation as =
opposed to what you stated in your follow on email, which better maps to =
the restricted set in your first message.
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Kathleen
>>>>> On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 8:07 PM Laurence Lundblade =
<lgl@island-resort.com <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> Hi Kathleen,
>>>>>> Not sure I=E2=80=99m following your thought completely.
>>>>>> =46rom what I know of Authenticated Boot, the code signing =
formats are usually proprietary and idiosyncratic. The first stages of =
it are likely in true ROM (chip metal layer) and can be very =
architecture and system specific and would not use CoSWID or EAT.
>>>>>> My comments below are about getting a system booted up to state =
where it known to behave as desired.
>>>>>> Once it is up then signed CoSWIDs in EATs would come into play. =
They can be trusted because the attester and system SW known to have =
booted up correctly. Knowing who signed some SW listed in a CoSWID is =
only of value if you know the system SW did signature checking when it =
loaded the SW it listed. For example, everyone knows how Android app =
signing works, so listing the signer of an Android app is good useful =
information.
>>>>>> Hope that makes sense in relation to your comment.
>>>>>> LL
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> On Nov 19, 2019, at 10:35 PM, Kathleen Moriarty =
<kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com =
<mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi Laurence,
>>>>>>> Where does the code signing example fit in that you gave as it's =
not really an attestation, but could be useful in the format of an =
EAT/CWT?   This questions considers the CoSWID discussion as well as =
another example you had in your slides later (which was really the same) =
on just validating the code was signed by the expected private key?  =
Should that be called an attestation or just using the format for =
signing?  You might add claims in above what's in the CoSWID and use the =
nesting of EAT/subdomains as well as perform remote verification.
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>> Kathleen
>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 8:26 AM Laurence Lundblade =
<lgl@island-resort.com <mailto:lgl@island-resort..com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Fundamentally, I think there are two ways that an attestation =
verifier comes to know that a device / entity is running approved SW and =
will behave as desired.
>>>>>>>> *TPM based*
>>>>>>>> =C2=B7Originates in the PC world where the end user had to be =
able to choose the system SW
>>>>>>>> [nms] Not sure what relevance to attestation should be ascribed =
because of how TPMs originated.
>>>>>>>> =C2=B7Has a TPM that performs a general measuring function
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>>          + Has an attestation signing key for signing =
measurements
>>>>>>>>            that is kept secret by the TPM
>>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>>> oTPM is generic as it can be used for PC=E2=80=99s, routers, =
IoT devices
>>>>>>>> [nms] Profiles for how to adapt TPM for use in specific =
platform classes is generally required.
>>>>>>>> =C2=B7Authenticated boot is optional
>>>>>>>> [nms] I think the industry also uses the term =E2=80=98secure =
boot=E2=80=99. TPM supports attestation (of the boot sequence) while a =
secure boot approach doesn=E2=80=99t imply attestation is needed/used.
>>>>>>>> [nms] Boot behavior is more a property of the Root of Trust for =
Measurement (RTM) than a TPM. There are many types of RTM technology =
most simply it is a boot ROM.
>>>>>>>> =C2=B7Uses a staged boot architecture where each stage must =
measure (hash) the following stage
>>>>>>>> [nms] Boot architecture is determined by the type of device / =
platform not the TPM. Staged boot sequences are fairly common across the =
industry. Hence the term =E2=80=98bootstrap=E2=80=99.
>>>>>>>> oHashes fed into the TPM
>>>>>>>> oTPM generates the attestation of the registers holding the =
hashes
>>>>>>>> =C2=B7Device cost raised by cost of TPM part
>>>>>>>> [nms] Not sure how this is relevant to RATS
>>>>>>>> =C2=B7The verifier must run a parallel set of measurements =
(hashes)
>>>>>>>> oVerifier is complex
>>>>>>>> [nms] as compared to what?
>>>>>>>> *Authenticated Boot based*
>>>>>>>> =C2=B7Origins in mobile phone, TEE and DRM world where the user =
can NOT choose the system SW
>>>>>>>> =C2=B7Authenticated boot is required
>>>>>>>> oUses a boot ROM that really is a ROM, probably in silicon (not =
flash), that can NOT be changed
>>>>>>>> [nms] This is true for platforms using a TPM as well.
>>>>>>>> oBoot ROM verifies the SW that is loaded, particular the top =
privilege (e.g. kernel) SW
>>>>>>>> [nms] Verification implies the ability to determine boot code =
integrity. This is common to platforms that use a TPM.
>>>>>>>> oA good implementation has anti-rollback to prevent old =
versions of SW from being run
>>>>>>>> =C2=B7Has an attestation signing key that is programmed in =
fuses or possibly in flash
>>>>>>>> [nms] This is commonly true for TPM based attestation =
implementations.
>>>>>>>> oHas a HW block that prevents access to the attestation key =
unless authenticated boot succeeds
>>>>>>>> [nms] This is also true for solutions that wish to implement =
secure boot using a TPM.
>>>>>>>> oOnly top privilege SW can use it
>>>>>>>> [nms] TPM attestation keys have restrictions on use as well.
>>>>>>>> =C2=B7Attestations are created in the top-privilege SW
>>>>>>>> oSimply signing a nonce proves the device is running approved =
SW
>>>>>>>> [nms] The security properties of the signing key (attestation =
key) are a function of the claims that the manufacturers make about the =
environment that protects the key. This is true for TPM as well as any =
other root of trust / attesting environment.
>>>>>>>> oEasy to add other claims in =E2=80=94> EAT
>>>>>>>> [nms] relative to what?
>>>>>>>> =C2=B7Device cost raised by need for secure key provisioning in =
the factory
>>>>>>>> =C2=B7Verifier is very simple
>>>>>>>> oJust needs to verify the signature and nonce
>>>>>>>> [nms] The verifier is also integrated into the boot code. These =
verifiers need to be provisioned with boot state policies and so forth. =
Secure boot is an example of the combining of Attester and Verifier =
roles.
>>>>>>>> Both provide acceptable security for their use cases and are =
broadly in use.
>>>>>>>> RATS needs to support both.
>>>>>>>> [nms] In what ways does RATS not support both?
>>>>>>>> LL
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> RATS mailing list
>>>>>>>> RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>>>>>>>=20
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>> Kathleen
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> RATS mailing list
>>>>>>> RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>>>>>=20
>>>>> --
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>> Kathleen
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> RATS mailing list
>>>> RATS@ietf.org
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> RATS mailing list
>>> RATS@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>=20


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">In =
the non-TPM style attestation I=E2=80=99m describing, <i class=3D"">no</i>=
 measurement is transmitted from the attester to the verifier. It is not =
necessary to send one. The trust in the attester is automatic, =
immediate, real and highly valuable.<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">This is why the sample simple EAT in =
the draft there is no measurement in the EAT attestation =
evidence:</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13.333333015441895px; margin-top: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;">{
   / nonce (cti) /            7:h'948f8860d13a463e8e',
   / UEID /                   =
8:h'0198f50a4ff6c05861c8860d13a638ea4fe2f',
   / boot_state /            12:{true, true, true, true, false}
   / time stamp (iat) /       6:1526542894,
}</pre><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">In this =
non-TPM style attestation there is hashing of code booted as part of =
secure boot implemented in the boot ROM, but that all happens inside the =
boot sequence and never manifests outside of it (I also do not think it =
is helpful to refer to this part of the boot ROM as a =E2=80=9Cverifier=E2=
=80=9D in this context because it is not the same as a RATS verifier =
that produces attestation evidence, is remote and such).</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">LL</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Nov 21, 2019, at 3:22 PM, =
Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">Hi =
Laurence,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I think that is a way better =
scope (maybe this thread in itself had some scope creep) to describe =
it.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I think it is rather obvious that the =
complexity of the appraisal process (the thing the Verifier does) =
depends on what you want to verify and how complex the evidence and the =
Attester are.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">If a simple Attester (such as =
a small thing, e.g. Car ECU, or Constrained Node Device) conducts =
authenticated boot, Attestation Evidence is fairly simple. It could be a =
single hash (the measurement after boot), or the most relevant part =
could be a signature based on a shielded secret in the thing. Both lead =
to very simple Attestation Evidence content and to very simple appraisal =
processes.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">The more thorough your =
measurements and the more complex the Attester, the more complex is the =
appraisal process. This is true for every RATS - TPM, fTPM or other =
TEE.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Maybe this is single scope is a better =
way to describe the matter at hand?<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Viele =
Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Henk<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">On 21.11.19 08:11, Laurence =
Lundblade wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">What =
I really care about here that this working group accepts the non-TPM =
style of establishing trust in the attester by the verifier as having =
equal stature with TPM style.<br class=3D"">In the non-TPM style there =
is no need for any back and forth protocol and no need for the verifier =
to do anything with measurements taken during boot. The verifier just =
needs to know that it is of this non-TPM style and attestations are =
immediately trusted.<br class=3D"">(It would be cool and useful to line =
up all the terminology and taxonomy, but that seems like about six =
months work, so I=E2=80=99m not after that, so no line-by-line replies =
from me)<br class=3D"">LL<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">On Nov 21, 2019, at 2:50 PM, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">Hi all,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">to be =
honest there now came so many different topics up in this thread that I =
am unable to connect all the dots here.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">I'd =
like to correct a few points of the initial statement based on Trusted =
Computing Group procedures, if that is okay:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">The fundamental discrepancy I see is the differentiation =
between "TPM based" and "Authenticated Boot based", because:<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">=3D&gt; TEE,fTPM,pTPM,and vTPM enable Measured =
or Authenticated Boot<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;Differentiating them by =
the terms above seems impossible.<br class=3D"">=3D&gt; TPM based =
authenticated boot starts with S-CRTM (Static Code Root of<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;Trust for Measurement). One type of this S-CRTM is immutable =
ROM<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;code.<br class=3D"">=3D&gt; There is no =
one generalized measuring function in the TPM. There are<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;32 two (in practice often 24) highly specialized measurement =
scopes<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;that can be dynamically assigned and =
are quite modular (Profiles<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;assign the =
semantics for different domains of application.<br class=3D"">=3D&gt; =
The TSS/TPM architecture supports layered attestation (which I think<br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;is what you mean by "staged boot architecture", =
but "each stage" does<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;not simply "hash" the =
"next stage" it is again a dynamic and modular<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;measurement framework, hashes are not "stored" but fed into =
TPM<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;provided folding hashes (a so called =
"extend" primitive operation).<br class=3D"">=3D&gt; corresponding =
verifies do "run a parallel set of measurements".<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;Complex, touring-complete, non-deterministic execution =
environments<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;(e.g. REE or TEE) can require =
the "replay" of measurement logs, which<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;include system event and platform specific state change =
measurements.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">In summary, I think the basis =
for the comparison is a bit off :-)<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">IHTH,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Henk<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">On 21.11.19 07:14, Laurence Lundblade =
wrote:<br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">I wrote this =
email because of side conversations with people that seemed to be =
implying the second type I described was invalid and insecure with the =
implication that EAT attestations could not trusted unless a TPM-based =
attestation was done first. &nbsp;&nbsp;This is a gross =
mischaracterization. This working group can not operate on that =
basis.<br class=3D"">I also wrote to facilitate understanding of the two =
main technology orientations of participants.<br class=3D"">I should =
have titled this better.<br class=3D""> &nbsp;* This is about how/trust =
in the attester by the verifier /is established.<br class=3D""> &nbsp;* =
Two popular approaches are described, but not to the exclusion of<br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;other approaches.<br class=3D"">LL<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">On Nov 21, 2019, at 5:11 =
AM, Smith, Ned &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com" =
class=3D"">ned.smith@intel.com</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com" =
class=3D"">mailto:ned.smith@intel.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><br=
 class=3D"">There are some misrepresentations in the analysis below =
(I=E2=80=99ll comment inline below using [nms] delimiters). In general, =
I don=E2=80=99t see attestation types as being binary. Dave Thaler=E2=80=99=
s chart / truth table in another thread seems to suggest this as well =
given there are many different types of attesting environments (aka =
roots of trust).<br class=3D"">It might make sense to have discussion =
around claims that apply to attesting environments vs. claims that apply =
to attested environments? The important security property of attesting =
environments is they often are regarded as =E2=80=9Ctrusted=E2=80=9D =
meaning there isn=E2=80=99t some other attesting environment that =
vouches for it.<br class=3D"">Associating claims to attesting =
environments often takes a different from attestation (as represented by =
the roles / arch models); namely using certificates issued by product =
vendors (what the arch has called =E2=80=98asserters=E2=80=99). =
Certificates typically contain identity claims but could contain =
additional claims. Vendors could also sign assert claims by signing a =
document that asserts them. These could be manifests, attribute certs, =
identity certs with claims extensions and possibly even JWT/CWT =
(tokens). I haven=E2=80=99t seen a use case for vendor issued tokens =
however. Possibly PKI will transition from X.509 based to Token based at =
some point in the future, but I expect it will take a while. Vendors =
issuing (signing) manifests seems reasonable since many already create =
manifests for software distribution also called packages / bundles. The =
workflow for =E2=80=98reference values=E2=80=99 would not be much =
different than for creating a SW update manifest.<br =
class=3D"">*From:*RATS &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt; on behalf of =
Kathleen Moriarty &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt;<br =
class=3D"">*Date:*Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 6:00 PM<br =
class=3D"">*To:*Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</a>=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" =
class=3D"">mailto:lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt;&gt;<br class=3D"">*Cc:*"<a=
 href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" class=3D"">rats@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" class=3D"">mailto:rats@ietf.org</a>&gt;" =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" class=3D"">rats@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" =
class=3D"">mailto:rats@ietf.org</a>&gt;&gt;<br class=3D"">*Subject:*Re: =
[Rats] Two types of secure attestation<br class=3D"">Hi Laurence,<br =
class=3D"">I read your message as there only being 2 types of =
attestation as opposed to what you stated in your follow on email, which =
better maps to the restricted set in your first message.<br =
class=3D"">Thanks,<br class=3D"">Kathleen<br class=3D"">On Tue, Nov 19, =
2019 at 8:07 PM Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</a>=
 &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" =
class=3D"">mailto:lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Hi Kathleen,<br =
class=3D"">Not sure I=E2=80=99m following your thought completely.<br =
class=3D""> =46rom what I know of Authenticated Boot, the code signing =
formats are usually proprietary and idiosyncratic. The first stages of =
it are likely in true ROM (chip metal layer) and can be very =
architecture and system specific and would not use CoSWID or EAT.<br =
class=3D"">My comments below are about getting a system booted up to =
state where it known to behave as desired.<br class=3D"">Once it is up =
then signed CoSWIDs in EATs would come into play. They can be trusted =
because the attester and system SW known to have booted up correctly. =
Knowing who signed some SW listed in a CoSWID is only of value if you =
know the system SW did signature checking when it loaded the SW it =
listed. For example, everyone knows how Android app signing works, so =
listing the signer of an Android app is good useful information.<br =
class=3D"">Hope that makes sense in relation to your comment.<br =
class=3D"">LL<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"">On Nov 19, 2019, at 10:35 PM, Kathleen Moriarty =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D"">Hi Laurence,<br class=3D"">Where does the code signing =
example fit in that you gave as it's not really an attestation, but =
could be useful in the format of an EAT/CWT? &nbsp;&nbsp;This questions =
considers the CoSWID discussion as well as another example you had in =
your slides later (which was really the same) on just validating the =
code was signed by the expected private key? &nbsp;Should that be called =
an attestation or just using the format for signing? &nbsp;You might add =
claims in above what's in the CoSWID and use the nesting of =
EAT/subdomains as well as perform remote verification.<br =
class=3D"">Thanks,<br class=3D"">Kathleen<br class=3D"">On Tue, Nov 19, =
2019 at 8:26 AM Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</a>=
 &lt;mailto:lgl@island-resort..com&gt;&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Fundamentally, I think =
there are two ways that an attestation verifier comes to know that a =
device / entity is running approved SW and will behave as desired.<br =
class=3D"">*TPM based*<br class=3D"">=C2=B7Originates in the PC world =
where the end user had to be able to choose the system SW<br =
class=3D"">[nms] Not sure what relevance to attestation should be =
ascribed because of how TPMs originated.<br class=3D"">=C2=B7Has a TPM =
that performs a general measuring function<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;+ Has an =
attestation signing key for signing measurements<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;that =
is kept secret by the TPM<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">oTPM is generic =
as it can be used for PC=E2=80=99s, routers, IoT devices<br =
class=3D"">[nms] Profiles for how to adapt TPM for use in specific =
platform classes is generally required.<br class=3D"">=C2=B7Authenticated =
boot is optional<br class=3D"">[nms] I think the industry also uses the =
term =E2=80=98secure boot=E2=80=99. TPM supports attestation (of the =
boot sequence) while a secure boot approach doesn=E2=80=99t imply =
attestation is needed/used.<br class=3D"">[nms] Boot behavior is more a =
property of the Root of Trust for Measurement (RTM) than a TPM. There =
are many types of RTM technology most simply it is a boot ROM.<br =
class=3D"">=C2=B7Uses a staged boot architecture where each stage must =
measure (hash) the following stage<br class=3D"">[nms] Boot architecture =
is determined by the type of device / platform not the TPM. Staged boot =
sequences are fairly common across the industry. Hence the term =
=E2=80=98bootstrap=E2=80=99.<br class=3D"">oHashes fed into the TPM<br =
class=3D"">oTPM generates the attestation of the registers holding the =
hashes<br class=3D"">=C2=B7Device cost raised by cost of TPM part<br =
class=3D"">[nms] Not sure how this is relevant to RATS<br class=3D"">=C2=B7=
The verifier must run a parallel set of measurements (hashes)<br =
class=3D"">oVerifier is complex<br class=3D"">[nms] as compared to =
what?<br class=3D"">*Authenticated Boot based*<br class=3D"">=C2=B7Origins=
 in mobile phone, TEE and DRM world where the user can NOT choose the =
system SW<br class=3D"">=C2=B7Authenticated boot is required<br =
class=3D"">oUses a boot ROM that really is a ROM, probably in silicon =
(not flash), that can NOT be changed<br class=3D"">[nms] This is true =
for platforms using a TPM as well.<br class=3D"">oBoot ROM verifies the =
SW that is loaded, particular the top privilege (e.g. kernel) SW<br =
class=3D"">[nms] Verification implies the ability to determine boot code =
integrity. This is common to platforms that use a TPM.<br class=3D"">oA =
good implementation has anti-rollback to prevent old versions of SW from =
being run<br class=3D"">=C2=B7Has an attestation signing key that is =
programmed in fuses or possibly in flash<br class=3D"">[nms] This is =
commonly true for TPM based attestation implementations.<br =
class=3D"">oHas a HW block that prevents access to the attestation key =
unless authenticated boot succeeds<br class=3D"">[nms] This is also true =
for solutions that wish to implement secure boot using a TPM.<br =
class=3D"">oOnly top privilege SW can use it<br class=3D"">[nms] TPM =
attestation keys have restrictions on use as well.<br =
class=3D"">=C2=B7Attestations are created in the top-privilege SW<br =
class=3D"">oSimply signing a nonce proves the device is running approved =
SW<br class=3D"">[nms] The security properties of the signing key =
(attestation key) are a function of the claims that the manufacturers =
make about the environment that protects the key. This is true for TPM =
as well as any other root of trust / attesting environment.<br =
class=3D"">oEasy to add other claims in =E2=80=94&gt; EAT<br =
class=3D"">[nms] relative to what?<br class=3D"">=C2=B7Device cost =
raised by need for secure key provisioning in the factory<br =
class=3D"">=C2=B7Verifier is very simple<br class=3D"">oJust needs to =
verify the signature and nonce<br class=3D"">[nms] The verifier is also =
integrated into the boot code. These verifiers need to be provisioned =
with boot state policies and so forth. Secure boot is an example of the =
combining of Attester and Verifier roles.<br class=3D"">Both provide =
acceptable security for their use cases and are broadly in use.<br =
class=3D"">RATS needs to support both.<br class=3D"">[nms] In what ways =
does RATS not support both?<br class=3D"">LL<br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">RATS mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" class=3D"">RATS@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" class=3D"">mailto:RATS@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats</a><br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">--<br class=3D"">Best regards,<br =
class=3D"">Kathleen<br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">RATS mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" class=3D"">RATS@ietf.org</a> &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" class=3D"">mailto:RATS@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats" =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats</a><br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote><br class=3D"">--<br class=3D"">Best =
regards,<br class=3D"">Kathleen<br =
class=3D""></blockquote>_______________________________________________<br=
 class=3D"">RATS mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" class=3D"">RATS@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">RATS mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" class=3D"">RATS@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats<br =
class=3D""></blockquote></blockquote><br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
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From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Two types of secure attestation
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Now I am confused again. Why should a Verifier ever create Attestation 
Evidence? Do yo mean Attestation Results?

If I understand you correctly, the fact that the EAT can be signed is 
due to the fact that authenticated boot was successful, right? What 
happens if the authenticated boot was not successful? Can you still 
create EAT? With different boot state?

How do you know that the boot state was not tempered with and the device 
is "lying" to you? I think you are describing implicit remote 
attestation, where you can only sign something if authenticated boot was 
successful. Is that your use case you are describing?

On 21.11.19 09:06, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
> In the non-TPM style attestation I’m describing, /no/ measurement is 
> transmitted from the attester to the verifier. It is not necessary to 
> send one. The trust in the attester is automatic, immediate, real and 
> highly valuable.
> 
> This is why the sample simple EAT in the draft there is no measurement 
> in the EAT attestation evidence:
> 
> {
>     / nonce (cti) /            7:h'948f8860d13a463e8e',
>     / UEID /                   8:h'0198f50a4ff6c05861c8860d13a638ea4fe2f',
>     / boot_state /            12:{true, true, true, true, false}
>     / time stamp (iat) /       6:1526542894,
> }
> 
> 
> In this non-TPM style attestation there is hashing of code booted as 
> part of secure boot implemented in the boot ROM, but that all happens 
> inside the boot sequence and never manifests outside of it (I also do 
> not think it is helpful to refer to this part of the boot ROM as a 
> “verifier” in this context because it is not the same as a RATS verifier 
> that produces attestation evidence, is remote and such).
> 
> LL
> 
> 
>> On Nov 21, 2019, at 3:22 PM, Henk Birkholz 
>> <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de 
>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Laurence,
>>
>> I think that is a way better scope (maybe this thread in itself had 
>> some scope creep) to describe it.
>>
>> I think it is rather obvious that the complexity of the appraisal 
>> process (the thing the Verifier does) depends on what you want to 
>> verify and how complex the evidence and the Attester are.
>>
>> If a simple Attester (such as a small thing, e.g. Car ECU, or 
>> Constrained Node Device) conducts authenticated boot, Attestation 
>> Evidence is fairly simple. It could be a single hash (the measurement 
>> after boot), or the most relevant part could be a signature based on a 
>> shielded secret in the thing. Both lead to very simple Attestation 
>> Evidence content and to very simple appraisal processes.
>>
>> The more thorough your measurements and the more complex the Attester, 
>> the more complex is the appraisal process. This is true for every RATS 
>> - TPM, fTPM or other TEE.
>>
>> Maybe this is single scope is a better way to describe the matter at hand?
>>
>> Viele Grüße,
>>
>> Henk
>>
>>
>>
>> On 21.11.19 08:11, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>>> What I really care about here that this working group accepts the 
>>> non-TPM style of establishing trust in the attester by the verifier 
>>> as having equal stature with TPM style.
>>> In the non-TPM style there is no need for any back and forth protocol 
>>> and no need for the verifier to do anything with measurements taken 
>>> during boot. The verifier just needs to know that it is of this 
>>> non-TPM style and attestations are immediately trusted.
>>> (It would be cool and useful to line up all the terminology and 
>>> taxonomy, but that seems like about six months work, so I’m not after 
>>> that, so no line-by-line replies from me)
>>> LL
>>>> On Nov 21, 2019, at 2:50 PM, Henk Birkholz 
>>>> <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de 
>>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> to be honest there now came so many different topics up in this 
>>>> thread that I am unable to connect all the dots here.
>>>>
>>>> I'd like to correct a few points of the initial statement based on 
>>>> Trusted Computing Group procedures, if that is okay:
>>>>
>>>> The fundamental discrepancy I see is the differentiation between 
>>>> "TPM based" and "Authenticated Boot based", because:
>>>>
>>>> => TEE,fTPM,pTPM,and vTPM enable Measured or Authenticated Boot
>>>>   Differentiating them by the terms above seems impossible.
>>>> => TPM based authenticated boot starts with S-CRTM (Static Code Root of
>>>>   Trust for Measurement). One type of this S-CRTM is immutable ROM
>>>>   code.
>>>> => There is no one generalized measuring function in the TPM. There are
>>>>   32 two (in practice often 24) highly specialized measurement scopes
>>>>   that can be dynamically assigned and are quite modular (Profiles
>>>>   assign the semantics for different domains of application.
>>>> => The TSS/TPM architecture supports layered attestation (which I think
>>>>   is what you mean by "staged boot architecture", but "each stage" does
>>>>   not simply "hash" the "next stage" it is again a dynamic and modular
>>>>   measurement framework, hashes are not "stored" but fed into TPM
>>>>   provided folding hashes (a so called "extend" primitive operation).
>>>> => corresponding verifies do "run a parallel set of measurements".
>>>>   Complex, touring-complete, non-deterministic execution environments
>>>>   (e.g. REE or TEE) can require the "replay" of measurement logs, which
>>>>   include system event and platform specific state change measurements.
>>>>
>>>> In summary, I think the basis for the comparison is a bit off :-)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> IHTH,
>>>>
>>>> Henk
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 21.11.19 07:14, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>>>>> I wrote this email because of side conversations with people that 
>>>>> seemed to be implying the second type I described was invalid and 
>>>>> insecure with the implication that EAT attestations could not 
>>>>> trusted unless a TPM-based attestation was done first.   This is a 
>>>>> gross mischaracterization. This working group can not operate on 
>>>>> that basis.
>>>>> I also wrote to facilitate understanding of the two main technology 
>>>>> orientations of participants.
>>>>> I should have titled this better.
>>>>>  * This is about how/trust in the attester by the verifier /is 
>>>>> established.
>>>>>  * Two popular approaches are described, but not to the exclusion of
>>>>>    other approaches.
>>>>> LL
>>>>>> On Nov 21, 2019, at 5:11 AM, Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com 
>>>>>> <mailto:ned.smith@intel.com> <mailto:ned.smith@intel.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are some misrepresentations in the analysis below (I’ll 
>>>>>> comment inline below using [nms] delimiters). In general, I don’t 
>>>>>> see attestation types as being binary. Dave Thaler’s chart / truth 
>>>>>> table in another thread seems to suggest this as well given there 
>>>>>> are many different types of attesting environments (aka roots of 
>>>>>> trust).
>>>>>> It might make sense to have discussion around claims that apply to 
>>>>>> attesting environments vs. claims that apply to attested 
>>>>>> environments? The important security property of attesting 
>>>>>> environments is they often are regarded as “trusted” meaning there 
>>>>>> isn’t some other attesting environment that vouches for it.
>>>>>> Associating claims to attesting environments often takes a 
>>>>>> different from attestation (as represented by the roles / arch 
>>>>>> models); namely using certificates issued by product vendors (what 
>>>>>> the arch has called ‘asserters’). Certificates typically contain 
>>>>>> identity claims but could contain additional claims. Vendors could 
>>>>>> also sign assert claims by signing a document that asserts them. 
>>>>>> These could be manifests, attribute certs, identity certs with 
>>>>>> claims extensions and possibly even JWT/CWT (tokens). I haven’t 
>>>>>> seen a use case for vendor issued tokens however. Possibly PKI 
>>>>>> will transition from X.509 based to Token based at some point in 
>>>>>> the future, but I expect it will take a while. Vendors issuing 
>>>>>> (signing) manifests seems reasonable since many already create 
>>>>>> manifests for software distribution also called packages / 
>>>>>> bundles. The workflow for ‘reference values’ would not be much 
>>>>>> different than for creating a SW update manifest.
>>>>>> *From:*RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org> 
>>>>>> <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Kathleen Moriarty 
>>>>>> <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com 
>>>>>> <mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com> 
>>>>>> <mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>>
>>>>>> *Date:*Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 6:00 PM
>>>>>> *To:*Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com 
>>>>>> <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com> <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>>
>>>>>> *Cc:*"rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org> <mailto:rats@ietf.org>" 
>>>>>> <rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org> <mailto:rats@ietf.org>>
>>>>>> *Subject:*Re: [Rats] Two types of secure attestation
>>>>>> Hi Laurence,
>>>>>> I read your message as there only being 2 types of attestation as 
>>>>>> opposed to what you stated in your follow on email, which better 
>>>>>> maps to the restricted set in your first message.
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Kathleen
>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 8:07 PM Laurence Lundblade 
>>>>>> <lgl@island-resort.com <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com> 
>>>>>> <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi Kathleen,
>>>>>>> Not sure I’m following your thought completely.
>>>>>>> From what I know of Authenticated Boot, the code signing formats 
>>>>>>> are usually proprietary and idiosyncratic. The first stages of it 
>>>>>>> are likely in true ROM (chip metal layer) and can be very 
>>>>>>> architecture and system specific and would not use CoSWID or EAT.
>>>>>>> My comments below are about getting a system booted up to state 
>>>>>>> where it known to behave as desired.
>>>>>>> Once it is up then signed CoSWIDs in EATs would come into play. 
>>>>>>> They can be trusted because the attester and system SW known to 
>>>>>>> have booted up correctly. Knowing who signed some SW listed in a 
>>>>>>> CoSWID is only of value if you know the system SW did signature 
>>>>>>> checking when it loaded the SW it listed. For example, everyone 
>>>>>>> knows how Android app signing works, so listing the signer of an 
>>>>>>> Android app is good useful information.
>>>>>>> Hope that makes sense in relation to your comment.
>>>>>>> LL
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Nov 19, 2019, at 10:35 PM, Kathleen Moriarty 
>>>>>>>> <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com 
>>>>>>>> <mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com> 
>>>>>>>> <mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hi Laurence,
>>>>>>>> Where does the code signing example fit in that you gave as it's 
>>>>>>>> not really an attestation, but could be useful in the format of 
>>>>>>>> an EAT/CWT?   This questions considers the CoSWID discussion as 
>>>>>>>> well as another example you had in your slides later (which was 
>>>>>>>> really the same) on just validating the code was signed by the 
>>>>>>>> expected private key?  Should that be called an attestation or 
>>>>>>>> just using the format for signing?  You might add claims in 
>>>>>>>> above what's in the CoSWID and use the nesting of EAT/subdomains 
>>>>>>>> as well as perform remote verification.
>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>> Kathleen
>>>>>>>> On Tue, Nov 19, 2019 at 8:26 AM Laurence Lundblade 
>>>>>>>> <lgl@island-resort.com <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com> 
>>>>>>>> <mailto:lgl@island-resort..com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Fundamentally, I think there are two ways that an attestation 
>>>>>>>>> verifier comes to know that a device / entity is running 
>>>>>>>>> approved SW and will behave as desired.
>>>>>>>>> *TPM based*
>>>>>>>>> ·Originates in the PC world where the end user had to be able 
>>>>>>>>> to choose the system SW
>>>>>>>>> [nms] Not sure what relevance to attestation should be ascribed 
>>>>>>>>> because of how TPMs originated.
>>>>>>>>> ·Has a TPM that performs a general measuring function
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>          + Has an attestation signing key for signing measurements
>>>>>>>>>            that is kept secret by the TPM
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> oTPM is generic as it can be used for PC’s, routers, IoT devices
>>>>>>>>> [nms] Profiles for how to adapt TPM for use in specific 
>>>>>>>>> platform classes is generally required.
>>>>>>>>> ·Authenticated boot is optional
>>>>>>>>> [nms] I think the industry also uses the term ‘secure boot’. 
>>>>>>>>> TPM supports attestation (of the boot sequence) while a secure 
>>>>>>>>> boot approach doesn’t imply attestation is needed/used.
>>>>>>>>> [nms] Boot behavior is more a property of the Root of Trust for 
>>>>>>>>> Measurement (RTM) than a TPM. There are many types of RTM 
>>>>>>>>> technology most simply it is a boot ROM.
>>>>>>>>> ·Uses a staged boot architecture where each stage must measure 
>>>>>>>>> (hash) the following stage
>>>>>>>>> [nms] Boot architecture is determined by the type of device / 
>>>>>>>>> platform not the TPM. Staged boot sequences are fairly common 
>>>>>>>>> across the industry. Hence the term ‘bootstrap’.
>>>>>>>>> oHashes fed into the TPM
>>>>>>>>> oTPM generates the attestation of the registers holding the hashes
>>>>>>>>> ·Device cost raised by cost of TPM part
>>>>>>>>> [nms] Not sure how this is relevant to RATS
>>>>>>>>> ·The verifier must run a parallel set of measurements (hashes)
>>>>>>>>> oVerifier is complex
>>>>>>>>> [nms] as compared to what?
>>>>>>>>> *Authenticated Boot based*
>>>>>>>>> ·Origins in mobile phone, TEE and DRM world where the user can 
>>>>>>>>> NOT choose the system SW
>>>>>>>>> ·Authenticated boot is required
>>>>>>>>> oUses a boot ROM that really is a ROM, probably in silicon (not 
>>>>>>>>> flash), that can NOT be changed
>>>>>>>>> [nms] This is true for platforms using a TPM as well.
>>>>>>>>> oBoot ROM verifies the SW that is loaded, particular the top 
>>>>>>>>> privilege (e.g. kernel) SW
>>>>>>>>> [nms] Verification implies the ability to determine boot code 
>>>>>>>>> integrity. This is common to platforms that use a TPM.
>>>>>>>>> oA good implementation has anti-rollback to prevent old 
>>>>>>>>> versions of SW from being run
>>>>>>>>> ·Has an attestation signing key that is programmed in fuses or 
>>>>>>>>> possibly in flash
>>>>>>>>> [nms] This is commonly true for TPM based attestation 
>>>>>>>>> implementations.
>>>>>>>>> oHas a HW block that prevents access to the attestation key 
>>>>>>>>> unless authenticated boot succeeds
>>>>>>>>> [nms] This is also true for solutions that wish to implement 
>>>>>>>>> secure boot using a TPM.
>>>>>>>>> oOnly top privilege SW can use it
>>>>>>>>> [nms] TPM attestation keys have restrictions on use as well.
>>>>>>>>> ·Attestations are created in the top-privilege SW
>>>>>>>>> oSimply signing a nonce proves the device is running approved SW
>>>>>>>>> [nms] The security properties of the signing key (attestation 
>>>>>>>>> key) are a function of the claims that the manufacturers make 
>>>>>>>>> about the environment that protects the key. This is true for 
>>>>>>>>> TPM as well as any other root of trust / attesting environment.
>>>>>>>>> oEasy to add other claims in —> EAT
>>>>>>>>> [nms] relative to what?
>>>>>>>>> ·Device cost raised by need for secure key provisioning in the 
>>>>>>>>> factory
>>>>>>>>> ·Verifier is very simple
>>>>>>>>> oJust needs to verify the signature and nonce
>>>>>>>>> [nms] The verifier is also integrated into the boot code. These 
>>>>>>>>> verifiers need to be provisioned with boot state policies and 
>>>>>>>>> so forth. Secure boot is an example of the combining of 
>>>>>>>>> Attester and Verifier roles.
>>>>>>>>> Both provide acceptable security for their use cases and are 
>>>>>>>>> broadly in use.
>>>>>>>>> RATS needs to support both.
>>>>>>>>> [nms] In what ways does RATS not support both?
>>>>>>>>> LL
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> RATS mailing list
>>>>>>>>> RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org> <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>> Kathleen
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> RATS mailing list
>>>>>>>> RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org> <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>> Kathleen
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> RATS mailing list
>>>>> RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> RATS mailing list
>>>> RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>>
> 


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From nobody Thu Nov 21 02:18:07 2019
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From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
References: <B099349B-711D-4A11-9E58-0886307FB7AF@island-resort.com> <CAHbuEH6qtVbzRXUALKBrr3butc8qT8Y81X-nQ6+PjC1n08CkvA@mail.gmail.com> <5DB30E08-9AB2-452A-B8D6-55BFD0AE5264@island-resort.com> <CAHbuEH4R4GZQCq9E1Nza8uPC=jxiM-FkV4tMrv9B==GsjvCLtw@mail.gmail.com> <34EB67FD-E76A-4132-87C4-C89EA70C9365@intel.com> <DC9F1051-E33A-477F-A855-2FBA33F8E8DF@island-resort.com> <cbb5f662-b073-5b5b-e504-56ea66b72744@sit.fraunhofer.de> <5A3105EA-8E54-4BB9-B266-96B6645811A1@island-resort.com> <c4967ed2-e484-d8c9-406b-8e1bb1b3b88d@sit.fraunhofer.de> <FF6F2CEE-1049-4B6C-8E12-9E21FE92D2F2@island-resort.com> <3285c3da-0748-5607-90ed-ac024ac826d0@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Two types of secure attestation
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I re-read this as it made really no sense to me. I realize that I 
actually do not understand this sentence:

On 21.11.19 09:06, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
> In this non-TPM style attestation there is hashing of code booted as part of secure boot implemented in the boot ROM, but that all happens inside the boot sequence and never manifests outside of it (I also do not think it is helpful to refer to this part of the boot ROM as a “verifier” in this context because it is not the same as a RATS verifier that produces attestation evidence, is remote and such).

What is "this part of the boot ROM" and why should anything in the boot 
ROM be called "verifier". It seems that it has occurred already. Could 
someone please tell me where and why? Was it mentioned on this list?

Viele Grüße,

Henk


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References: <BN7PR09MB2819D797B89183218BEFA823F04E0@BN7PR09MB2819.namprd09.prod.outlook.com>
Cc: Ira McDonald <blueroofmusic@gmail.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, sacm <sacm@ietf.org>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
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To: "Waltermire, David A. (Fed)" <david.waltermire@nist.gov>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/LNnpTNjvHdoN6ck_U2TaWiIpRF0>
Subject: Re: [Rats] [sacm]  CoSWID and EAT and CWT
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Sent from my mobile device

> On Nov 20, 2019, at 11:29 PM, Waltermire, David A. (Fed) <david.waltermire=
@nist.gov> wrote:
>=20
> =EF=BB=BF
> It sounds like having a CWT claim that contains an entire CoSWID is a path=
 forward. It may also make sense to do something similar for ISO SWID tags.
>=20
> Am I right in thinking that this CWT work can be done in RATS, referencing=
 CoSWID once it is published as a normative reference? This would allow CoSW=
ID to go forward to the IESG, while the CoSWID CWT claim is worked in parall=
el in RATS.
>=20
> Kathleen, if this is true, does this way forward address your CWT-related c=
omments?

Hi Dave,

I think the signature may have to be on the CWT as opposed to on the claim t=
hat is the CoSWID or SWID.  We can define it fully in another draft, but sho=
uld state it here so that option is understood.  It=E2=80=99s a simple write=
 up, I think.

Thank you,
Kathleen=20
>=20
> Regards,
> Dave
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> From: sacm <sacm-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Kathleen Moriarty <kathlee=
n.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2019 9:10 PM
> To: Ira McDonald <blueroofmusic@gmail.com>
> Cc: rats@ietf.org <rats@ietf.org>; sacm <sacm@ietf.org>; Laurence Lundblad=
e <lgl@island-resort.com>
> Subject: Re: [sacm] [Rats] CoSWID and EAT and CWT
> =20
> Great, thanks Laurence.  If that's easier I think having the CoSWID in one=
 claim should be ok and would have the same result as the suggestion I made.=
  Changing the CoSWID format is a big enough process that it shouldn't happe=
n very often.
>=20
> Best regards,
> Kathleen
>=20
> On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 8:00 PM Ira McDonald <blueroofmusic@gmail.com> wro=
te:
> Hi Laurence,
>=20
> That seems like a good suggestion for a simple way to integrate CoSWID con=
tent
> into EAT.
>=20
> Cheers,
> - Ira
>=20
> Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)
> Co-Chair - TCG Trusted Mobility Solutions WG
> Co-Chair - TCG Metadata Access Protocol SG
> Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG
> Secretary - IEEE-ISTO Printer Working Group
> Co-Chair - IEEE-ISTO PWG Internet Printing Protocol WG
> IETF Designated Expert - IPP & Printer MIB
> Blue Roof Music / High North Inc
> http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic
> http://sites.google.com/site/highnorthinc
> mailto: blueroofmusic@gmail.com
> PO Box 221  Grand Marais, MI 49839  906-494-2434
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 7:35 PM Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>=
 wrote:
> Hi,
>=20
> I=E2=80=99m not on the SACM list, but did look at the archive. Hopefully I=
=E2=80=99m not out of sync.
>=20
> My thought is to register one claim for CWT that is an entire CoSWID (in C=
DDL the concise-swid-tag).
>=20
> That way CoSWID can grow and develop on its own without lots of adds and s=
ubtracts to the CWT registry. It has its own IANA registry with its own expe=
rts and such. Seems like the coupling / factoring is about right.
>=20
> This would also be the way I=E2=80=99d like to have it in EAT attestation.=
 We=E2=80=99ve done a mini version of this with the location claim.
>=20
> Then if you just want to sign a CoSWID CWT style, this works pretty well t=
oo. It has a slight overhead compared to having all the CoSWID data items as=
 direct CWT claims in that it will have an additional map layer, but that is=
 only about three bytes.
>=20
> LL
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
> _______________________________________________
> sacm mailing list
> sacm@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sacm
>=20
>=20
> --=20
>=20
> Best regards,
> Kathleen

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><br><br><div dir=3D"ltr">Sent from my mobil=
e device</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">On Nov 20, 2019=
, at 11:29 PM, Waltermire, David A. (Fed) &lt;david.waltermire@nist.gov&gt; w=
rote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=
=BB=BF

<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-12=
52">



<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans=
-serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<span>It sounds like having a CWT claim that contains an entire CoSWID is a p=
ath forward. It may also make sense to do something similar for ISO SWID tag=
s.</span></div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans=
-serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<span><br>
</span></div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans=
-serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<span>Am I right in thinking that this CWT work can be done in RATS, referen=
cing CoSWID once it is published as a normative reference? This would allow C=
oSWID to go forward to the IESG, while the CoSWID CWT claim is worked in par=
allel in RATS.</span></div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans=
-serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<span><br>
</span></div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans=
-serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<span>Kathleen, if this is true, does this way forward address your CWT-rela=
ted comments?</span></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>Hi Dave,<div><br=
></div><div>I think the signature may have to be on the CWT as opposed to on=
 the claim that is the CoSWID or SWID. &nbsp;We can define it fully in anoth=
er draft, but should state it here so that option is understood. &nbsp;It=E2=
=80=99s a simple write up, I think.</div><div><br></div><div>Thank you,</div=
><div>Kathleen&nbsp;<br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans=
-serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans=
-serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<span>Regards,</span></div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans=
-serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<span>Dave</span></div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans=
-serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<span><br>
</span></div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans=
-serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<span><br>
</span></div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans=
-serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans=
-serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<br>
</div>
<div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans=
-serif; font-size: 12pt;">
<br>
</div>
<div>
<div style=3D"color:rgb(0,0,0); font-family:Calibri,Arial,Helvetica,sans-ser=
if; font-size:12pt">
</div>
<hr tabindex=3D"-1" style=3D"display:inline-block; width:98%">
<div id=3D"divRplyFwdMsg" dir=3D"ltr"><font color=3D"#000000" face=3D"Calibr=
i, sans-serif" style=3D"font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> sacm &lt;sacm-bounces@i=
etf.org&gt; on behalf of Kathleen Moriarty &lt;kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.=
com&gt;<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 20, 2019 9:10 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Ira McDonald &lt;blueroofmusic@gmail.com&gt;<br>
<b>Cc:</b> rats@ietf.org &lt;rats@ietf.org&gt;; sacm &lt;sacm@ietf.org&gt;; L=
aurence Lundblade &lt;lgl@island-resort.com&gt;<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [sacm] [Rats] CoSWID and EAT and CWT</font>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
</div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Great, thanks Laurence.&nbsp; If that's easier I think havi=
ng the CoSWID in one claim should be ok and would have the same result as th=
e suggestion I made.&nbsp; Changing the CoSWID format is a big enough proces=
s that it shouldn't happen very often.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best regards,</div>
<div>Kathleen</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class=3D"x_gmail_quote">
<div class=3D"x_gmail_attr" dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 8:00 PM Ira M=
cDonald &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com">blueroofmusic@gmail.c=
om</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"x_gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; borde=
r-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204); padding-left:1ex">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>Hi Laurence,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>That seems like a good suggestion for a simple way to integrate CoSWID c=
ontent</div>
<div>into EAT.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Cheers,</div>
<div>- Ira</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">
<div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)<br>
Co-Chair - TCG Trusted Mobility Solutions WG</div>
<div>Co-Chair - TCG Metadata Access Protocol SG<br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"ltr">Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG<br>
Secretary - IEEE-ISTO Printer Working Group<br>
Co-Chair - IEEE-ISTO PWG Internet Printing Protocol WG<br>
IETF Designated Expert - IPP &amp; Printer MIB<br>
Blue Roof Music / High North Inc<br>
<a href=3D"https://gcc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%=
2Fsites.google.com%2Fsite%2Fblueroofmusic&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Cdavid.walterm=
ire%40nist.gov%7C92a2dcbadd8d47661b9608d76e282847%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a93e0546=
55c61dec%7C1%7C1%7C637098991070417006&amp;sdata=3DGDIVVIesvqqXnuU6TtLbK7GJ4e=
I1b1EcYSPoXsHlj04%3D&amp;reserved=3D0" target=3D"_blank" shash=3D"z3mHm21smP=
a7bA7Zx2QkN+eNokv25iKheuvpfD1XND7IY5V63VUHcd3sIavliUPis7B73OORhV6vaRvuu1qW/2=
2CVeuXnBDh3oJ+zbw9heXSjpvxwVSOPrvmJkYcvOakz4bgFpj2HQNk5vVl6wRGQb9RsEmmCZMaBT=
BDjdeoNhw=3D" originalsrc=3D"http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic">htt=
p://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic</a><br>
<a style=3D"color:rgb(102,0,204)" href=3D"https://gcc01.safelinks.protection=
.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fsites.google.com%2Fsite%2Fhighnorthinc&amp;=
data=3D02%7C01%7Cdavid.waltermire%40nist.gov%7C92a2dcbadd8d47661b9608d76e282=
847%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a93e054655c61dec%7C1%7C1%7C637098991070417006&amp;sdat=
a=3D7z%2BoMcYSSFD8hAYHmELqNoyGAxTBE9gknbV6kAzKWX8%3D&amp;reserved=3D0" targe=
t=3D"_blank" shash=3D"cRiwF8rGL2D8dTzBFaGKMGPT4h/FNWFnj+kG650EGYjveBNaYRN1Ci=
swptjjh2Y13ELzXH7JK9CNUyYUhh+CrBzq8g11iJAiz/YsbOHTWSDzmBsCASOvWtCQzz2p22xRRO=
OXCA2GYyVU1wbmHr4DHb8Xsm76KoboHO7ukB0kIoY=3D" originalsrc=3D"http://sites.go=
ogle.com/site/highnorthinc">http://sites.google.com/site/highnorthinc</a><br=
>
mailto: <a href=3D"mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">blueroo=
fmusic@gmail.com</a><br>
PO Box 221&nbsp; Grand Marais, MI 49839&nbsp; 906-494-2434<br>
<br>
<div style=3D"display:inline"></div>
<div style=3D"display:inline"></div>
<div style=3D"display:inline"></div>
<div></div>
<div></div>
<div></div>
<div></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class=3D"x_gmail_quote">
<div class=3D"x_gmail_attr" dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 7:35 PM Laur=
ence Lundblade &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" target=3D"_blank=
">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class=3D"x_gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; borde=
r-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204); padding-left:1ex">
<div>Hi,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I=E2=80=99m not on the SACM list, but did look at the archive. Hopefull=
y I=E2=80=99m not out of sync.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>My thought is to register one claim for CWT that is an entire CoSWID (i=
n CDDL the&nbsp;<span style=3D"font-size:13.3333px"><font face=3D"Courier">c=
oncise-swid-tag)</font></span>.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>That way CoSWID can grow and develop on its own without lots of adds an=
d subtracts to the CWT registry. It has its own IANA registry with its own e=
xperts and such. Seems like the coupling / factoring is about right.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This would also be the way I=E2=80=99d like to have it in EAT attestati=
on. We=E2=80=99ve done a mini version of this with the&nbsp;<a href=3D"https=
://gcc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.or=
g%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ietf-rats-eat-01%23section-3.8&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Cdavid.w=
altermire%40nist.gov%7C92a2dcbadd8d47661b9608d76e282847%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a9=
3e054655c61dec%7C1%7C1%7C637098991070426961&amp;sdata=3D%2Fhi008Am2dlY6tBQHd=
PVVGZzEcWNmqd5MvgPOM14jE8%3D&amp;reserved=3D0" target=3D"_blank" shash=3D"yU=
qYslUeAFYLv/6obMj+csU/PkHW93d6OjFUNzYg7hfuBlNS8ZA0mZsNCLxSBECaN2VgGitMNlOZ5w=
utmlDGXHA+O36NVYgqXXlo78J8R2VqoFEhjjMRqzlwhaXL5nWuxqE8tzOY6sNOx/iVV24qgbyLlV=
AWCR/PcG3aY9tYJxQ=3D" originalsrc=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-=
rats-eat-01#section-3.8">location
 claim</a>.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Then if you just want to sign a CoSWID CWT style, this works pretty wel=
l too. It has a slight overhead compared to having all the CoSWID data items=
 as direct CWT claims in that it will have an additional map layer, but that=
 is only about three bytes.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>LL</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
RATS mailing list<br>
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mire%40nist.gov%7C92a2dcbadd8d47661b9608d76e282847%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a93e054=
655c61dec%7C1%7C1%7C637098991070426961&amp;sdata=3DfdpXMIU%2BNkMSn3RJ4X5AsSu=
MU7pbokHXltsX8ZYP9E0%3D&amp;reserved=3D0" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferre=
r" shash=3D"akp5WXLGXmAI4seFSPQCboQCj/TBw9UmPG8LhlAJvVwsi/OYiwHx4Xe4gvVK5mmU=
ZlSkI4AIHF6D5kE10+iJ+wCnfXJWFA4D+oNXxJW7kokGz0C1kvrm4qmzDFqmxBAYrLkDKlizgAww=
dmAaaOwU2gYVhuXwLByHA5Zv+LmrFhw=3D" originalsrc=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mail=
man/listinfo/rats">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats</a><br>
</blockquote>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
sacm mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:sacm@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sacm@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://gcc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%=
2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fsacm&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Cdavid.walter=
mire%40nist.gov%7C92a2dcbadd8d47661b9608d76e282847%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a93e054=
655c61dec%7C1%7C1%7C637098991070436893&amp;sdata=3DokSPAqVHj9KBxPtViQdnffsfh=
lMF4t0%2F87PXXY78fA0%3D&amp;reserved=3D0" rel=3D"noreferrer" shash=3D"VHhD+2=
+EMMgiZj89QwfzWDXgFgTtUNu5dCKhcmkX8S76tfyD713Loa9FkZ0U1ncvqRhsFw6VrR1ZoDYODH=
jJv3N/ZuFEmk5knCjdZZNivzTon5oiMElX01Gaz1BPMr/+pLDQ+7vE5jF43G2VUkyavDygFdsxVM=
AHULWJ3BZJjvc=3D" originalsrc=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sacm"=
>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sacm</a><br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br clear=3D"all">
<div><br>
</div>
-- <br>
<div class=3D"x_gmail_signature" dir=3D"ltr">
<div dir=3D"ltr"><br>
<div>Best regards,</div>
<div>Kathleen</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>


</div></blockquote></div></body></html>=

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From: "Waltermire, David A. (Fed)" <david.waltermire@nist.gov>
To: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
CC: Ira McDonald <blueroofmusic@gmail.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, sacm <sacm@ietf.org>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
Thread-Topic: [sacm] [Rats] CoSWID and EAT and CWT
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [sacm]  CoSWID and EAT and CWT
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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] Two types of secure attestation
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Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2019 16:52:57 +0000
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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
To: "Waltermire, David A. (Fed)" <david.waltermire=40nist.gov@dmarc.ietf.org>,  Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Ira McDonald <blueroofmusic@gmail.com>, sacm <sacm@ietf.org>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] [sacm]  CoSWID and EAT and CWT
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Subject: Re: [Rats] CoSWID and EAT and CWT
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From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
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Cc: "Waltermire, David A. (Fed)" <david.waltermire=40nist.gov@dmarc.ietf.org>,  Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Ira McDonald <blueroofmusic@gmail.com>, sacm <sacm@ietf.org>
To: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
References: <BN7PR09MB2819D797B89183218BEFA823F04E0@BN7PR09MB2819.namprd09.prod.outlook.com> <922EA164-FB96-4245-A46C-6520809E6311@gmail.com> <5r0dnrkillm4odhp4it9ejl8.1574342669212@email.android.com> <CFA72C1A-3DEE-40D0-862E-EC0B512F733B@intel.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [sacm]  CoSWID and EAT and CWT
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Hi Ned,

> On Nov 22, 2019, at 1:01 AM, Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com> wrote:
>=20
> It isn=E2=80=99t known yet if a token (CWT/JWT) realization makes =
sense for Endorsers.


This is probably far afield for SACM.

I think it is probably out of scope for RATS too. I assume the endorser =
is not a sub-part of the attester and it not on the device, but instead =
part of the device manufacturing infrastructure. I assume the endorser =
is not part of the verifier either.=20

I believe the endorser is part of or all of the mechanism that =
facilitates the placing of the private key material in the attester and =
the corresponding public key material in the verifier. I believe these =
interactions are out of scope for RATS. In many cases they will be =
highly proprietary and highly dependent on the manufacturing system.

LL


--Apple-Mail=_634E236D-2184-4AA9-BC25-A43E591AB1C1
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Hi =
Ned,<br class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Nov 22, 2019, at 1:01 AM, Smith, Ned =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com" =
class=3D"">ned.smith@intel.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
font-size: 14.666666984558105px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">It isn=E2=80=99=
t known yet if a token (CWT/JWT) realization makes sense for =
Endorsers.</span></div></blockquote></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>This is probably far afield for =
SACM.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I think it is probably out of =
scope for RATS too. I assume the endorser is not a sub-part of the =
attester and it not on the device, but instead part of the device =
manufacturing infrastructure. I assume the endorser is not part of the =
verifier either.&nbsp;</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I believe the =
endorser is part of or all of the mechanism that facilitates the placing =
of the private key material in the attester and the corresponding public =
key material in the verifier. I believe these interactions are out of =
scope for RATS. In many cases they will be highly proprietary and highly =
dependent on the manufacturing system.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>LL</div><div><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

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From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
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Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 08:55:15 +0800
Cc: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
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To: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Two types of secure attestation
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Agree with Ned=E2=80=99s characterization of the system behavior.=20

However I think calling this a RATS verifier + RATS attester is very =
confusing. A RATS verifier consumes RATS format attestation evidence. It =
will often produces RATS format attestation results.

This part of the boot ROM usually uses highly propriety formats for =
signed operating system code, nothing that looks like COSE, CBOR or =
CoSWID. It might look like ELF. Maybe the TCG has some standards in this =
area, but I think it is far outside the RATS charter.=20

I=E2=80=99ve had some exposure to commercial work on that sort of boot =
ROM code. It is the some of most cared-for, sacred and tested code in =
existance.

LL


> On Nov 22, 2019, at 12:52 AM, Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com> wrote:
>=20
> I think this is a case where the verifier role is combined with the =
attester role such that an implicit attestation is all that is required =
by a remote verifier to arrive at a conclusion that the detailed =
policies applied by the verification logic in the boot code were =
applied. In other words, the system couldn't have booted incorrectly if =
it is able to supply implicit attestation to the remote verifier.=20
>=20
> =EF=BB=BFOn 11/21/19, 2:18 AM, "Henk Birkholz" =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
>=20
>    I re-read this as it made really no sense to me. I realize that I=20=

>    actually do not understand this sentence:
>=20
>    On 21.11.19 09:06, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>> In this non-TPM style attestation there is hashing of code booted as =
part of secure boot implemented in the boot ROM, but that all happens =
inside the boot sequence and never manifests outside of it (I also do =
not think it is helpful to refer to this part of the boot ROM as a =
=E2=80=9Cverifier=E2=80=9D in this context because it is not the same as =
a RATS verifier that produces attestation evidence, is remote and such).
>=20
>    What is "this part of the boot ROM" and why should anything in the =
boot=20
>    ROM be called "verifier". It seems that it has occurred already. =
Could=20
>    someone please tell me where and why? Was it mentioned on this =
list?
>=20
>    Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>=20
>    Henk
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats


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To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
References: <B099349B-711D-4A11-9E58-0886307FB7AF@island-resort.com> <CAHbuEH6qtVbzRXUALKBrr3butc8qT8Y81X-nQ6+PjC1n08CkvA@mail.gmail.com> <5DB30E08-9AB2-452A-B8D6-55BFD0AE5264@island-resort.com> <CAHbuEH4R4GZQCq9E1Nza8uPC=jxiM-FkV4tMrv9B==GsjvCLtw@mail.gmail.com> <34EB67FD-E76A-4132-87C4-C89EA70C9365@intel.com> <DC9F1051-E33A-477F-A855-2FBA33F8E8DF@island-resort.com> <cbb5f662-b073-5b5b-e504-56ea66b72744@sit.fraunhofer.de> <5A3105EA-8E54-4BB9-B266-96B6645811A1@island-resort.com> <c4967ed2-e484-d8c9-406b-8e1bb1b3b88d@sit.fraunhofer.de> <FF6F2CEE-1049-4B6C-8E12-9E21FE92D2F2@island-resort.com> <3285c3da-0748-5607-90ed-ac024ac826d0@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Two types of secure attestation
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> On Nov 21, 2019, at 5:08 PM, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
>=20
> If I understand you correctly, the fact that the EAT can be signed is =
due to the fact that authenticated boot was successful, right? What =
happens if the authenticated boot was not successful? Can you still =
create EAT? With different boot state?

You cannot create an EAT unless the authenticated boot was successful. =
The key material with which to sign the EAT is inaccessible if =
authenticated boot fails (or else the device just won=E2=80=99t boot at =
all).

This is the point of this whole discussion. :-)

>=20
> How do you know that the boot state was not tempered with and the =
device is "lying" to you?

It is the same as knowing a TPM was not tampered with.=20

The HW + boot ROM are built to a level of HW tamper resistance that is =
acceptable for the use case.=20


> I think you are describing implicit remote attestation, where you can =
only sign something if authenticated boot was successful. Is that your =
use case you are describing?

Yes

LL


--Apple-Mail=_CE096CE4-8313-4B79-8027-108074FF2584
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
Nov 21, 2019, at 5:08 PM, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">If I understand you correctly, =
the fact that the EAT can be signed is due to the fact that =
authenticated boot was successful, right? What happens if the =
authenticated boot was not successful? Can you still create EAT? With =
different boot state?</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>You cannot create an EAT unless the authenticated =
boot was successful. The key material with which to sign the EAT is =
inaccessible if authenticated boot fails (or else the device just =
won=E2=80=99t boot at all).</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>This is =
the point of this whole discussion. :-)</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">How do you know that the boot =
state was not tempered with and the device is "lying" to you? =
</span></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>It is the same =
as knowing a TPM was not tampered with.&nbsp;</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>The HW + boot ROM are built to a level of HW =
tamper resistance that is acceptable for the use =
case.&nbsp;</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none; float: none; display: inline !important;" class=3D"">I think you =
are describing implicit remote attestation, where you can only sign =
something if authenticated boot was successful. Is that your use case =
you are describing?</span></div></blockquote><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Yes</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>LL</div><br =
class=3D""></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_CE096CE4-8313-4B79-8027-108074FF2584--


From nobody Thu Nov 21 18:26:49 2019
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CC: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
References: <B099349B-711D-4A11-9E58-0886307FB7AF@island-resort.com> <CAHbuEH6qtVbzRXUALKBrr3butc8qT8Y81X-nQ6+PjC1n08CkvA@mail.gmail.com> <5DB30E08-9AB2-452A-B8D6-55BFD0AE5264@island-resort.com> <CAHbuEH4R4GZQCq9E1Nza8uPC=jxiM-FkV4tMrv9B==GsjvCLtw@mail.gmail.com> <34EB67FD-E76A-4132-87C4-C89EA70C9365@intel.com> <DC9F1051-E33A-477F-A855-2FBA33F8E8DF@island-resort.com> <cbb5f662-b073-5b5b-e504-56ea66b72744@sit.fraunhofer.de> <5A3105EA-8E54-4BB9-B266-96B6645811A1@island-resort.com> <c4967ed2-e484-d8c9-406b-8e1bb1b3b88d@sit.fraunhofer.de> <FF6F2CEE-1049-4B6C-8E12-9E21FE92D2F2@island-resort.com> <3285c3da-0748-5607-90ed-ac024ac826d0@sit.fraunhofer.de> <0384FAEE-6C5B-4A99-BBA0-F080DD27AA9B@island-resort.com>
From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Two types of secure attestation
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Hi Laurence,

okay - understood! The TPM based RATS in this scenario is covered by 
using a constrained Signing Key inside the TPM.

In essence, Section 4.12.1.1 of the "Trusted Attestation Protocol (TAP) 
Information Model for TPM Families 1.2 and 2.0 and DICE Family 1.0" defines:
"Implicit attestation is created when a signature is signed with a 
signing key(described in section 4.4), but with the additional 
requirement that the signing key can provably only be used to sign when 
the system is in a particular state. Thus,the very act of signing using 
that key proves the system is in that known state.If the data signed 
includes a nonce, then this proves the system was in that state after 
the nonce was provided.".

There are no semantic difference between the "simple non-TPM EAT" 
scenario and the TPM-based implicit remote attestation scenario. They 
are if fact the "same types of secure attestation".

Viele Grüße,

Henk


On 22.11.19 02:03, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
> 
>> On Nov 21, 2019, at 5:08 PM, Henk Birkholz 
>> <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de 
>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
>>
>> If I understand you correctly, the fact that the EAT can be signed is 
>> due to the fact that authenticated boot was successful, right? What 
>> happens if the authenticated boot was not successful? Can you still 
>> create EAT? With different boot state?
> 
> You cannot create an EAT unless the authenticated boot was successful. 
> The key material with which to sign the EAT is inaccessible if 
> authenticated boot fails (or else the device just won’t boot at all).
> 
> This is the point of this whole discussion. :-)
> 
>>
>> How do you know that the boot state was not tempered with and the 
>> device is "lying" to you? 
> 
> It is the same as knowing a TPM was not tampered with.
> 
> The HW + boot ROM are built to a level of HW tamper resistance that is 
> acceptable for the use case.
> 
> 
>> I think you are describing implicit remote attestation, where you can 
>> only sign something if authenticated boot was successful. Is that your 
>> use case you are describing?
> 
> Yes
> 
> LL
> 


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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain


I'm not very clueful about ACE pubsub, but in the space of the RATS pubsub
interaction, we may be able to learn something here, or possibly we'd want to
adopt the entire structure.

Francesca Palombini <francesca.palombini=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
    > Ace has just issued a call for adoption on the profile of ACE for
    > pubsub, which aims at addressing the topic of security for pubsub.
    > Please head over there and comment on the call if f you are interested
    > in moving this work forward.


    > Thanks,
    > Francesca

    > From: Ace <ace-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Daniel Migault <daniel.migault=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
    > Date: Tuesday, 19 November 2019 at 16:45
    > To: Ace Wg <ace@ietf.org>
    > Subject: [Ace] Call for adoption draft-palombini-ace-coap-pubsub-profile

    > Dear working group,

    > As mentioned during the ACE meeting, this mail starts a call for adoption for draft-palombini-ace-coap-pubsub-profile. Please provide your feed backs by December 4.


    > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-palombini-ace-coap-pubsub-profile/


    > Yours,
    > Daniel



    > ----------------------------------------------------
    > Alternatives:

    > ----------------------------------------------------
    > _______________________________________________
    > core mailing list
    > core@ietf.org
    > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/core

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
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Subject: [Rats] Milestones changed for rats WG
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Changed milestone "Call for adoption on Yang Module draft", set state to
active from review, accepting new milestone, set due date to November 2019
from March 2019.

URL: https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/rats/about/


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Subject: [Rats] RATS architecture design team "weekly" working meetings
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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain


https://doodle.com/poll/qmz6zepmzisbqge7

This doodle poll asks for you for the date of the first meeting, being the
week of Dec. 3, but when answering please consider that this meeting will
have a more than every-two-weeks cadence, but possibly not every single week,
based upon availability and progress.

So even if a time that week does not work for you, but it would work
on-going, please answer yes or if-need-be.

Henk and I (at least), prefer whereby.com (formerly appear.in) as the
technology, as it's pure webrtc (and I have a premium account) and works well
on most desktop OSes (vs webex, which officially does not), even through many
(but not all) corporate firewalls. We are open to discussion on this.

But it does not support a PSTN call-in: it's all VoIP.
As we intend to share browser tabs, HackMD/etherpad and markdown in editors,
if you can only make it via PSTN, then you probably won't be able to
participate constructive in the working call.


--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-




--=-=-=
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--=-=-=--


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Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 13:57:41 +0800
From: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
To: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: Reviewing EAT for enterprise/cloud use cases
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Subject: [Rats] Reviewing EAT for enterprise/cloud use cases
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> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

--B_3657275862_1088954942
Content-type: text/plain;
	charset="UTF-8"
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I have read the EAT draft, specifically with a =E2=80=9Ccloud=E2=80=9D use case in mind=
. To clarify, what I'm looking for is the capability:

=20

- To attest to software components that are running inside VMs, containers =
(either on VMs or bare metal), and anonymous containers (function-as-a-servi=
ce, such as AWS Lambda).

- Such components may be deployed in arbitrary hierarchies (VM-in-VM etc.).

- Attestation of running (as opposed to installed) components. For example,=
 container code may be pulled from a remote repository shortly before it is =
run.

- To support diverse roots-of-trust, such that when a hardware root-of-trus=
t is unavailable, we can have a hypervisor or an orchestration server (e.g. =
Kubernetes) as the RoT, even if that means a lower level of trust.

=20

I think in general, EAT can be made to fit these use cases, given its recur=
sive structure. But not surprisingly given its origins, the draft would need=
 quite a few changes.

=20

* 1.2 (and 3.12): why not spell out that a submodule can be either a hardwa=
re or software component?

* 1.2: why *dedicated* root of trust, what is it dedicated to? A RoT may ha=
ve other functions; a system may in general have multiple RoTs. The word "de=
dicated" is not repeated anywhere else in the document, nor is it explained.

* 1.3 continues to only talk hardware, e.g. when defining the "manufacturer=
". Software has a manufacturer too.

* 3.3: the notion of UEID is fundamentally incompatible with some component=
 types that we would wish to attest. For example, the lifetime of a function=
-as-a-service container may be less than a second, and even if it has an ide=
ntity during its lifetime, there is no registry or persistent record of this=
 identity. Is a UEID required in this scheme?

* 3.4: hey, finally some software!

=20

I think we still don't have a handle on identifying running software, and C=
osWID may not be the whole answer. CosWID is more like traditional software =
inventorying, and we need something that will cover dynamic modern software.

=20

Thanks,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Yaron

=20


--B_3657275862_1088954942
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<html xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schema=
s-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/20=
04/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta http-equiv=3DC=
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--></style></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72"><div clas=
s=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:=
"-webkit-standard",serif;color:black'>I have read the EAT draft, specificall=
y with a =E2=80=9Ccloud=E2=80=9D use case in mind. To clarify, what I'm looking for is t=
he capability:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-siz=
e:11.0pt;font-family:"-webkit-standard",serif;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p>=
</span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"-we=
bkit-standard",serif;color:black'>- To attest to software components that ar=
e running inside VMs, containers (either on VMs or bare metal), and anonymou=
s containers (function-as-a-service, such as AWS Lambda).<o:p></o:p></span><=
/p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"-webkit-sta=
ndard",serif;color:black'>- Such components may be deployed in arbitrary hie=
rarchies (VM-in-VM etc.).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span styl=
e=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"-webkit-standard",serif;color:black'>- Atte=
station of running (as opposed to installed) components. For example, contai=
ner code may be pulled from a remote repository shortly before it is run.<o:=
p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-fam=
ily:"-webkit-standard",serif;color:black'>- To support diverse roots-of-trus=
t, such that when a hardware root-of-trust is unavailable, we can have a hyp=
ervisor or an orchestration server (e.g. Kubernetes) as the RoT, even if tha=
t means a lower level of trust.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><spa=
n style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"-webkit-standard",serif;color:black'>=
<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt=
;font-family:"-webkit-standard",serif;color:black'>I think in general, EAT c=
an be made to fit these use cases, given its recursive structure. But not su=
rprisingly given its origins, the draft would need quite a few changes.<o:p>=
</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-famil=
y:"-webkit-standard",serif;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"-webkit-standard",seri=
f;color:black'>* 1.2 (and 3.12): why not spell out that a submodule can be e=
ither a hardware or software component?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"-webkit-standard",serif;color=
:black'>* 1.2: why *dedicated* root of trust, what is it dedicated to? A RoT=
 may have other functions; a system may in general have multiple RoTs. The w=
ord &quot;dedicated&quot; is not repeated anywhere else in the document, nor=
 is it explained.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-=
size:11.0pt;font-family:"-webkit-standard",serif;color:black'>* 1.3 continue=
s to only talk hardware, e.g. when defining the &quot;manufacturer&quot;. So=
ftware has a manufacturer too.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span=
 style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"-webkit-standard",serif;color:black'>*=
 3.3: the notion of UEID is fundamentally incompatible with some component t=
ypes that we would wish to attest. For example, the lifetime of a function-a=
s-a-service container may be less than a second, and even if it has an ident=
ity during its lifetime, there is no registry or persistent record of this i=
dentity. Is a UEID required in this scheme?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMs=
oNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"-webkit-standard",serif;c=
olor:black'>* 3.4: hey, finally some software!<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"-webkit-standard",seri=
f;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'f=
ont-size:11.0pt;font-family:"-webkit-standard",serif;color:black'>I think we=
 still don't have a handle on identifying running software, and CosWID may n=
ot be the whole answer. CosWID is more like traditional software inventoryin=
g, and we need something that will cover dynamic modern software.<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"-we=
bkit-standard",serif;color:black'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNo=
rmal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"-webkit-standard",serif;colo=
r:black'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-s=
ize:11.0pt;font-family:"-webkit-standard",serif;color:black'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Yaron<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'f=
ont-size:11.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p></div></body></html>

--B_3657275862_1088954942--



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Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 14:05:06 +0800
From: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
To: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
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Subject: [Rats] EAT IANA registry
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Unrelated to my earlier mail, I would recommend to create a separate regist=
ry for EAT claims (I suppose that implies a nested object in the JWT/CWT) ra=
ther than to overload the CWT registry. Architecturally it just doesn=E2=80=99t ji=
ve to have all these claims as baseline CWT claims, and process-wise, it=E2=80=99s=
 much more convenient for this group to control its own namespace.

=20

Sorry if this has been raised before.

=20

Thanks,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Yaron


--B_3657276308_775543267
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--></style></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72"><div clas=
s=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>Unrelated t=
o my earlier mail, I would recommend to create a separate registry for EAT c=
laims (I suppose that implies a nested object in the JWT/CWT) rather than to=
 overload the CWT registry. Architecturally it just doesn=E2=80=99t jive to have a=
ll these claims as baseline CWT claims, and process-wise, it=E2=80=99s much more c=
onvenient for this group to control its own namespace.<o:p></o:p></span></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></=
p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>Sorry if this has been r=
aised before.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size=
:11.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-si=
ze:11.0pt'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font=
-size:11.0pt'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Yaron<o:p></o:p></span></p></di=
v></body></html>

--B_3657276308_775543267--



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From: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
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From: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 09:15:03 -0500
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Reviewing EAT for enterprise/cloud use cases
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On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 12:57 AM Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
wrote:

> I have read the EAT draft, specifically with a =E2=80=9Ccloud=E2=80=9D us=
e case in mind.
> To clarify, what I'm looking for is the capability:
>
>
>
> - To attest to software components that are running inside VMs, container=
s
> (either on VMs or bare metal), and anonymous containers
> (function-as-a-service, such as AWS Lambda).
>
> - Such components may be deployed in arbitrary hierarchies (VM-in-VM etc.=
).
>
> - Attestation of running (as opposed to installed) components. For
> example, container code may be pulled from a remote repository shortly
> before it is run.
>
> - To support diverse roots-of-trust, such that when a hardware
> root-of-trust is unavailable, we can have a hypervisor or an orchestratio=
n
> server (e.g. Kubernetes) as the RoT, even if that means a lower level of
> trust.
>
>
>
> I think in general, EAT can be made to fit these use cases, given its
> recursive structure. But not surprisingly given its origins, the draft
> would need quite a few changes.
>
>
>
> * 1.2 (and 3.12): why not spell out that a submodule can be either a
> hardware or software component?
>
> * 1.2: why *dedicated* root of trust, what is it dedicated to? A RoT may
> have other functions; a system may in general have multiple RoTs. The wor=
d
> "dedicated" is not repeated anywhere else in the document, nor is it
> explained.
>
> * 1.3 continues to only talk hardware, e.g. when defining the
> "manufacturer". Software has a manufacturer too.
>
> * 3.3: the notion of UEID is fundamentally incompatible with some
> component types that we would wish to attest. For example, the lifetime o=
f
> a function-as-a-service container may be less than a second, and even if =
it
> has an identity during its lifetime, there is no registry or persistent
> record of this identity. Is a UEID required in this scheme?
>
> * 3.4: hey, finally some software!
>
>
>
> I think we still don't have a handle on identifying running software, and
> CosWID may not be the whole answer. CosWID is more like traditional
> software inventorying, and we need something that will cover dynamic mode=
rn
> software.
>

I'm going to write up some text for the CoSWID draft that would have a
CoSWID in an EAT (CWT).  If the entire CoSWID (or even SWID) were in a
claim, allowing you to add other claims, would this suffice for your use
case?

I think I'll write a draft specific to what CoSWID looks like in an EAT as
a follow up and would like coauthors.  I was thinking that might go into
SACM, referencing the EAT work.

Best regards,
Kathleen


>
> Thanks,
>
>                 Yaron
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>


--=20

Best regards,
Kathleen

--0000000000006996980597f00c87
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 12:57 AM Yaro=
n Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com">yaronf.ietf@gmail.co=
m</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"=
><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:1=
1pt;font-family:-webkit-standard,serif;color:black">I have read the EAT dra=
ft, specifically with a =E2=80=9Ccloud=E2=80=9D use case in mind. To clarif=
y, what I&#39;m looking for is the capability:<u></u><u></u></span></p><p c=
lass=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:-webkit-standa=
rd,serif;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"=
><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:-webkit-standard,serif;color:bla=
ck">- To attest to software components that are running inside VMs, contain=
ers (either on VMs or bare metal), and anonymous containers (function-as-a-=
service, such as AWS Lambda).<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:-webkit-standard,serif;color:bl=
ack">- Such components may be deployed in arbitrary hierarchies (VM-in-VM e=
tc.).<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-si=
ze:11pt;font-family:-webkit-standard,serif;color:black">- Attestation of ru=
nning (as opposed to installed) components. For example, container code may=
 be pulled from a remote repository shortly before it is run.<u></u><u></u>=
</span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family=
:-webkit-standard,serif;color:black">- To support diverse roots-of-trust, s=
uch that when a hardware root-of-trust is unavailable, we can have a hyperv=
isor or an orchestration server (e.g. Kubernetes) as the RoT, even if that =
means a lower level of trust.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:-webkit-standard,serif;color:bl=
ack"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"f=
ont-size:11pt;font-family:-webkit-standard,serif;color:black">I think in ge=
neral, EAT can be made to fit these use cases, given its recursive structur=
e. But not surprisingly given its origins, the draft would need quite a few=
 changes.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"fon=
t-size:11pt;font-family:-webkit-standard,serif;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u=
></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-f=
amily:-webkit-standard,serif;color:black">* 1.2 (and 3.12): why not spell o=
ut that a submodule can be either a hardware or software component?<u></u><=
u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-=
family:-webkit-standard,serif;color:black">* 1.2: why *dedicated* root of t=
rust, what is it dedicated to? A RoT may have other functions; a system may=
 in general have multiple RoTs. The word &quot;dedicated&quot; is not repea=
ted anywhere else in the document, nor is it explained.<u></u><u></u></span=
></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:-webk=
it-standard,serif;color:black">* 1.3 continues to only talk hardware, e.g. =
when defining the &quot;manufacturer&quot;. Software has a manufacturer too=
.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:1=
1pt;font-family:-webkit-standard,serif;color:black">* 3.3: the notion of UE=
ID is fundamentally incompatible with some component types that we would wi=
sh to attest. For example, the lifetime of a function-as-a-service containe=
r may be less than a second, and even if it has an identity during its life=
time, there is no registry or persistent record of this identity. Is a UEID=
 required in this scheme?<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><s=
pan style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:-webkit-standard,serif;color:black"=
>* 3.4: hey, finally some software!<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"Mso=
Normal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:-webkit-standard,serif;co=
lor:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span styl=
e=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:-webkit-standard,serif;color:black">I think=
 we still don&#39;t have a handle on identifying running software, and CosW=
ID may not be the whole answer. CosWID is more like traditional software in=
ventorying, and we need something that will cover dynamic modern software.<=
/span></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I&#39;m going to wri=
te up some text for the CoSWID draft that would have a CoSWID in an EAT (CW=
T).=C2=A0 If the entire CoSWID (or even SWID) were in a claim, allowing you=
 to add other claims, would this suffice for your use case?</div><div><br><=
/div><div>I think I&#39;ll write a draft specific to what CoSWID looks like=
 in an EAT as a follow up and would like coauthors.=C2=A0 I was thinking th=
at might go into SACM, referencing the EAT work.</div><div><br></div><div>B=
est regards,</div><div>Kathleen</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,=
204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"EN-US"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal">=
<span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:-webkit-standard,serif;color:blac=
k"><u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size=
:11pt;font-family:-webkit-standard,serif;color:black"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u><=
/span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:=
-webkit-standard,serif;color:black">Thanks,<u></u><u></u></span></p><p clas=
s=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;font-family:-webkit-standard,=
serif;color:black">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Yaron<u></u><u></u></span></p><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></=
p></div></div>
_______________________________________________<br>
RATS mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">RATS@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"=
 class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div>Best regards,</div><di=
v>Kathleen</div></div></div></div>

--0000000000006996980597f00c87--


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Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 22:57:34 +0800
From: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
To: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: EAT IANA registry
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Subject: Re: [Rats] EAT IANA registry
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Hi Hannes,

=20

Looking at the JWT claim IANA registry [1], it is already a terrible mess o=
f several different standards, obviously with many more coming. I guess what=
=E2=80=99s done is done, and I=E2=80=99ll take back my objection.

=20

Thanks,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Yaron

=20

[1] https://www.iana.org/assignments/jwt/jwt.xhtml#claims

=20

From: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
Date: Friday, November 22, 2019 at 14:17
To: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: EAT IANA registry

=20

Yaron,=20

Could you explain why you think that this is a good idea?=20

Ciao

Hannes

=20

From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Yaron Sheffer
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2019 2:05 PM
To: rats@ietf.org
Subject: [Rats] EAT IANA registry

=20

Unrelated to my earlier mail, I would recommend to create a separate regist=
ry for EAT claims (I suppose that implies a nested object in the JWT/CWT) ra=
ther than to overload the CWT registry. Architecturally it just doesn=E2=80=99t ji=
ve to have all these claims as baseline CWT claims, and process-wise, it=E2=80=99s=
 much more convenient for this group to control its own namespace.

=20

Sorry if this has been raised before.

=20

Thanks,

                Yaron

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ther person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any=
 medium. Thank you.=20


--B_3657308256_937616666
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--></style></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3D"#0563C1" vlink=3D"#954F72"><div clas=
s=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>Hi Hannes,<=
o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>Loo=
king at the JWT claim IANA registry [1], it is already a terrible mess of se=
veral different standards, obviously with many more coming. I guess what=E2=80=99s=
 done is done, and I=E2=80=99ll take back my objection.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>=
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 Yaron<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11=
.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:=
11.0pt'>[1] https://www.iana.org/assignments/jwt/jwt.xhtml#claims<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:=
p></span></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:=
3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'color:black'>From: </s=
pan></b><span style=3D'color:black'>Hannes Tschofenig &lt;Hannes.Tschofenig@ar=
m.com&gt;<br><b>Date: </b>Friday, November 22, 2019 at 14:17<br><b>To: </b>Y=
aron Sheffer &lt;yaronf.ietf@gmail.com&gt;, &quot;rats@ietf.org&quot; &lt;ra=
ts@ietf.org&gt;<br><b>Subject: </b>RE: EAT IANA registry<o:p></o:p></span></=
p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</=
o:p></span></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>Yaron=
, </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>Co=
uld you explain why you think that this is a good idea? </span><o:p></o:p></=
p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>Ciao</span><o:p></o:p></=
p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>Hannes</span><o:p></o:p>=
</p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:=
p></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.=
0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>From:<=
/span></b><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'> RATS &lt;rats-bounces@ietf.org&gt;=
 <b>On Behalf Of </b>Yaron Sheffer<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 22, 2019=
 2:05 PM<br><b>To:</b> rats@ietf.org<br><b>Subject:</b> [Rats] EAT IANA regi=
stry</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></=
p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>Unrelated to my earlier =
mail, I would recommend to create a separate registry for EAT claims (I supp=
ose that implies a nested object in the JWT/CWT) rather than to overload the=
 CWT registry. Architecturally it just doesn=E2=80=99t jive to have all these clai=
ms as baseline CWT claims, and process-wise, it=E2=80=99s much more convenient for=
 this group to control its own namespace.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMs=
oNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>Sorry if this has been raised before.=
</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>&nbs=
p;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'>Th=
anks,</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt'=
>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Yaron</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'f=
ont-size:11.0pt'>IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attach=
ments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intend=
ed recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the c=
ontents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the in=
formation in any medium. Thank you. <o:p></o:p></span></p></div></body></htm=
l>

--B_3657308256_937616666--



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Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 23:43:29 +0800
From: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
To: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: CoSWID, was Re:  Reviewing EAT for enterprise/cloud use cases
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Subject: [Rats] CoSWID, was Re:  Reviewing EAT for enterprise/cloud use cases
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Hi Kathleen,

I was assuming CoSWIDs (or SWIDs) to become claims anyway, this wasn=E2=80=99t wh=
at I was asking. My question was whether SWIDs today cover the most common t=
echnologies that we use to deploy software, other than traditional RPM (and =
equivalent) software packages:

* Language-specific packages deployed directly into the OS, such as Python =
PIP and Ruby gems.
* Language-specific packages deployed into application servers, such as Jav=
a WAR files and NPM packages.
* Docker containers that consist of multiple "layers", each possibly includ=
ing several RPM packages as well as other stuff, like individual copied file=
s.
* Lambda functions that are built using their own custom toolset.

I am completely ignorant about the SWID ecosystem, so maybe the answer is Y=
es to all of the above (though a quick Google search came up with nothing). =
Any help from experts would be appreciated.

Thanks,
	Yaron

From: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Friday, November 22, 2019 at 22:15
To: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Rats] Reviewing EAT for enterprise/cloud use cases



On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 12:57 AM Yaron Sheffer <mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.co=
m> wrote:
I have read the EAT draft, specifically with a =E2=80=9Ccloud=E2=80=9D use case in mind=
. To clarify, what I'm looking for is the capability:
=C2=A0
- To attest to software components that are running inside VMs, containers =
(either on VMs or bare metal), and anonymous containers (function-as-a-servi=
ce, such as AWS Lambda).
- Such components may be deployed in arbitrary hierarchies (VM-in-VM etc.).
- Attestation of running (as opposed to installed) components. For example,=
 container code may be pulled from a remote repository shortly before it is =
run.
- To support diverse roots-of-trust, such that when a hardware root-of-trus=
t is unavailable, we can have a hypervisor or an orchestration server (e.g. =
Kubernetes) as the RoT, even if that means a lower level of trust.
=C2=A0
I think in general, EAT can be made to fit these use cases, given its recur=
sive structure. But not surprisingly given its origins, the draft would need=
 quite a few changes.
=C2=A0
* 1.2 (and 3.12): why not spell out that a submodule can be either a hardwa=
re or software component?
* 1.2: why *dedicated* root of trust, what is it dedicated to? A RoT may ha=
ve other functions; a system may in general have multiple RoTs. The word "de=
dicated" is not repeated anywhere else in the document, nor is it explained.
* 1.3 continues to only talk hardware, e.g. when defining the "manufacturer=
". Software has a manufacturer too.
* 3.3: the notion of UEID is fundamentally incompatible with some component=
 types that we would wish to attest. For example, the lifetime of a function=
-as-a-service container may be less than a second, and even if it has an ide=
ntity during its lifetime, there is no registry or persistent record of this=
 identity. Is a UEID required in this scheme?
* 3.4: hey, finally some software!
=C2=A0
I think we still don't have a handle on identifying running software, and C=
osWID may not be the whole answer. CosWID is more like traditional software =
inventorying, and we need something that will cover dynamic modern software.

I'm going to write up some text for the CoSWID draft that would have a CoSW=
ID in an EAT (CWT).=C2=A0 If the entire CoSWID (or even SWID) were in a claim, a=
llowing you to add other claims, would this suffice for your use case?

I think I'll write a draft specific to what CoSWID looks like in an EAT as =
a follow up and would like coauthors.=C2=A0 I was thinking that might go into SA=
CM, referencing the EAT work.

Best regards,
Kathleen

=C2=A0
Thanks,
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Yaron
=C2=A0
_______________________________________________
RATS mailing list
mailto:RATS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats



--=20

Best regards,
Kathleen



From nobody Fri Nov 22 09:07:00 2019
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From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [sacm]  CoSWID and EAT and CWT
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Hi Kathleen,
hi SACM, SUIT & RATS list,

the corresponding *SWID authors discussed this issue and are proposing:

> https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/issues/46

This includes an extended scope to include the option of SUIT Manifest 
related Claim values, next to various *SWID Claim values. We permutated 
"signed" & "not-signed" as well as "payload tags" and "evidence tags" 
for *SWID tags in this proposal. The authors are convinced that the 
"not-signed" variants are of essence (as CWT does not allow "not-signed 
CBOR items", but also do not imply any implications to the SUIT Manifest 
Claim definition (although there are strong similarities and there could 
be some).

The current *SWID contributors prefer this contribution as a parallel 
effort to the EAT I-D, SUIT Manifest I-D, the CoSWID I-D and existing 
ISO XML SWID standard. This proposal includes the primitive to not delay 
corresponding IETG I-D in their respective WGs.

Having said that, we would like to get feedback for the proposal 
references above.

If there is no dissent or push-back on either the SUIT, SACM, and RATS 
lists, our proposed way forward is a unified creation of EAT Claim Sets 
in the RATS WG that enables the use of various *SWID variants & the SUIT 
Manifest as payloads for RATS via the RATS EAT I-D.

In summary, we would like to create this interop I-D in concert and 
welcome every joint effort in this domain.

Viele Grüße,

Henk

On 21.11.19 12:37, Kathleen Moriarty wrote:
> 
> 
> Sent from my mobile device
> 
>> On Nov 20, 2019, at 11:29 PM, Waltermire, David A. (Fed) 
>> <david.waltermire@nist.gov> wrote:
>>
>> ﻿
>> It sounds like having a CWT claim that contains an entire CoSWID is a 
>> path forward. It may also make sense to do something similar for ISO 
>> SWID tags.
>>
>> Am I right in thinking that this CWT work can be done in RATS, 
>> referencing CoSWID once it is published as a normative reference? This 
>> would allow CoSWID to go forward to the IESG, while the CoSWID CWT 
>> claim is worked in parallel in RATS.
>>
>> Kathleen, if this is true, does this way forward address your 
>> CWT-related comments?
> 
> Hi Dave,
> 
> I think the signature may have to be on the CWT as opposed to on the 
> claim that is the CoSWID or SWID.  We can define it fully in another 
> draft, but should state it here so that option is understood.  It’s a 
> simple write up, I think.
> 
> Thank you,
> Kathleen
>>
>> Regards,
>> Dave
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* sacm <sacm-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Kathleen Moriarty 
>> <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 20, 2019 9:10 PM
>> *To:* Ira McDonald <blueroofmusic@gmail.com>
>> *Cc:* rats@ietf.org <rats@ietf.org>; sacm <sacm@ietf.org>; Laurence 
>> Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [sacm] [Rats] CoSWID and EAT and CWT
>> Great, thanks Laurence.  If that's easier I think having the CoSWID in 
>> one claim should be ok and would have the same result as the 
>> suggestion I made.  Changing the CoSWID format is a big enough process 
>> that it shouldn't happen very often.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Kathleen
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 8:00 PM Ira McDonald <blueroofmusic@gmail.com 
>> <mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>     Hi Laurence,
>>
>>     That seems like a good suggestion for a simple way to integrate
>>     CoSWID content
>>     into EAT.
>>
>>     Cheers,
>>     - Ira
>>
>>     Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)
>>     Co-Chair - TCG Trusted Mobility Solutions WG
>>     Co-Chair - TCG Metadata Access Protocol SG
>>     Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG
>>     Secretary - IEEE-ISTO Printer Working Group
>>     Co-Chair - IEEE-ISTO PWG Internet Printing Protocol WG
>>     IETF Designated Expert - IPP & Printer MIB
>>     Blue Roof Music / High North Inc
>>     http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic
>>     <https://gcc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsites.google.com%2Fsite%2Fblueroofmusic&data=02%7C01%7Cdavid.waltermire%40nist.gov%7C92a2dcbadd8d47661b9608d76e282847%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a93e054655c61dec%7C1%7C1%7C637098991070417006&sdata=GDIVVIesvqqXnuU6TtLbK7GJ4eI1b1EcYSPoXsHlj04%3D&reserved=0>
>>     http://sites.google.com/site/highnorthinc
>>     <https://gcc01.safelinks.protection..outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsites.google.com%2Fsite%2Fhighnorthinc&data=02%7C01%7Cdavid.waltermire%40nist.gov%7C92a2dcbadd8d47661b9608d76e282847%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a93e054655c61dec%7C1%7C1%7C637098991070417006&sdata=7z%2BoMcYSSFD8hAYHmELqNoyGAxTBE9gknbV6kAzKWX8%3D&reserved=0>
>>     mailto: blueroofmusic@gmail.com <mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com>
>>     PO Box 221  Grand Marais, MI 49839  906-494-2434
>>
>>
>>
>>     On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 7:35 PM Laurence Lundblade
>>     <lgl@island-resort.com <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>> wrote:
>>
>>         Hi,
>>
>>         I’m not on the SACM list, but did look at the archive.
>>         Hopefully I’m not out of sync.
>>
>>         My thought is to register one claim for CWT that is an entire
>>         CoSWID (in CDDL the concise-swid-tag).
>>
>>         That way CoSWID can grow and develop on its own without lots
>>         of adds and subtracts to the CWT registry. It has its own IANA
>>         registry with its own experts and such. Seems like the
>>         coupling / factoring is about right.
>>
>>         This would also be the way I’d like to have it in EAT
>>         attestation. We’ve done a mini version of this with the
>>         location claim
>>         <https://gcc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ietf-rats-eat-01%23section-3.8&data=02%7C01%7Cdavid.waltermire%40nist.gov%7C92a2dcbadd8d47661b9608d76e282847%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a93e054655c61dec%7C1%7C1%7C637098991070426961&sdata=%2Fhi008Am2dlY6tBQHdPVVGZzEcWNmqd5MvgPOM14jE8%3D&reserved=0>.
>>
>>         Then if you just want to sign a CoSWID CWT style, this works
>>         pretty well too. It has a slight overhead compared to having
>>         all the CoSWID data items as direct CWT claims in that it will
>>         have an additional map layer, but that is only about three bytes.
>>
>>         LL
>>
>>         _______________________________________________
>>         RATS mailing list
>>         RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
>>         https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>>         <https://gcc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Frats&data=02%7C01%7Cdavid.waltermire%40nist.gov%7C92a2dcbadd8d47661b9608d76e282847%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a93e054655c61dec%7C1%7C1%7C637098991070426961&sdata=fdpXMIU%2BNkMSn3RJ4X5AsSuMU7pbokHXltsX8ZYP9E0%3D&reserved=0>
>>
>>     _______________________________________________
>>     sacm mailing list
>>     sacm@ietf.org <mailto:sacm@ietf.org>
>>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sacm
>>     <https://gcc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fsacm&data=02%7C01%7Cdavid.waltermire%40nist.gov%7C92a2dcbadd8d47661b9608d76e282847%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a93e054655c61dec%7C1%7C1%7C637098991070436893&sdata=okSPAqVHj9KBxPtViQdnffsfhlMF4t0%2F87PXXY78fA0%3D&reserved=0>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Kathleen
> 
> _______________________________________________
> sacm mailing list
> sacm@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sacm
> 


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From: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 13:20:13 -0500
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To: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, Dave Waltermire <davewaltermire@gmail.com>,  "Banghart, Stephen A. (Fed)" <stephen.banghart@nist.gov>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] CoSWID, was Re: Reviewing EAT for enterprise/cloud use cases
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Hi Yaron,

I am copying Dave and Stephen in case they are not following RATS as
closely as they do SACM.  Have you looked at the CoSWID draft in SACM?  It
contains the full SWID format as it is translated into CoSWID.  It may
answer some of your questions.  I'm swamped today, but can look at this
stuff more next week or the following week and am interested.

Best regards,
Kathleen

On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 10:43 AM Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi Kathleen,
>
> I was assuming CoSWIDs (or SWIDs) to become claims anyway, this wasn=E2=
=80=99t
> what I was asking. My question was whether SWIDs today cover the most
> common technologies that we use to deploy software, other than traditiona=
l
> RPM (and equivalent) software packages:
>
> * Language-specific packages deployed directly into the OS, such as Pytho=
n
> PIP and Ruby gems.
> * Language-specific packages deployed into application servers, such as
> Java WAR files and NPM packages.
> * Docker containers that consist of multiple "layers", each possibly
> including several RPM packages as well as other stuff, like individual
> copied files.
> * Lambda functions that are built using their own custom toolset.
>
> I am completely ignorant about the SWID ecosystem, so maybe the answer is
> Yes to all of the above (though a quick Google search came up with
> nothing). Any help from experts would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
>         Yaron
>
> From: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
> Date: Friday, November 22, 2019 at 22:15
> To: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
> Cc: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [Rats] Reviewing EAT for enterprise/cloud use cases
>
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 12:57 AM Yaron Sheffer <mailto:
> yaronf.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have read the EAT draft, specifically with a =E2=80=9Ccloud=E2=80=9D us=
e case in mind.
> To clarify, what I'm looking for is the capability:
>
> - To attest to software components that are running inside VMs, container=
s
> (either on VMs or bare metal), and anonymous containers
> (function-as-a-service, such as AWS Lambda).
> - Such components may be deployed in arbitrary hierarchies (VM-in-VM etc.=
).
> - Attestation of running (as opposed to installed) components. For
> example, container code may be pulled from a remote repository shortly
> before it is run.
> - To support diverse roots-of-trust, such that when a hardware
> root-of-trust is unavailable, we can have a hypervisor or an orchestratio=
n
> server (e.g. Kubernetes) as the RoT, even if that means a lower level of
> trust.
>
> I think in general, EAT can be made to fit these use cases, given its
> recursive structure. But not surprisingly given its origins, the draft
> would need quite a few changes.
>
> * 1.2 (and 3.12): why not spell out that a submodule can be either a
> hardware or software component?
> * 1.2: why *dedicated* root of trust, what is it dedicated to? A RoT may
> have other functions; a system may in general have multiple RoTs. The wor=
d
> "dedicated" is not repeated anywhere else in the document, nor is it
> explained.
> * 1.3 continues to only talk hardware, e.g. when defining the
> "manufacturer". Software has a manufacturer too.
> * 3.3: the notion of UEID is fundamentally incompatible with some
> component types that we would wish to attest. For example, the lifetime o=
f
> a function-as-a-service container may be less than a second, and even if =
it
> has an identity during its lifetime, there is no registry or persistent
> record of this identity. Is a UEID required in this scheme?
> * 3.4: hey, finally some software!
>
> I think we still don't have a handle on identifying running software, and
> CosWID may not be the whole answer. CosWID is more like traditional
> software inventorying, and we need something that will cover dynamic mode=
rn
> software.
>
> I'm going to write up some text for the CoSWID draft that would have a
> CoSWID in an EAT (CWT).  If the entire CoSWID (or even SWID) were in a
> claim, allowing you to add other claims, would this suffice for your use
> case?
>
> I think I'll write a draft specific to what CoSWID looks like in an EAT a=
s
> a follow up and would like coauthors.  I was thinking that might go into
> SACM, referencing the EAT work.
>
> Best regards,
> Kathleen
>
>
> Thanks,
>                 Yaron
>
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> mailto:RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>
>
>
> --
>
> Best regards,
> Kathleen
>
>
>

--=20

Best regards,
Kathleen

--000000000000358a220597f379ad
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Yaron,<div><br></div><div>I am copying Dave and Stephen=
 in case they are not following RATS as closely as they do SACM.=C2=A0 Have=
 you looked at the CoSWID draft in SACM?=C2=A0 It contains the full SWID fo=
rmat as it is translated into CoSWID.=C2=A0 It may answer some of your ques=
tions.=C2=A0 I&#39;m swamped today, but can look at this stuff more next we=
ek or the following week and am interested.</div><div><br></div><div>Best r=
egards,</div><div>Kathleen</div></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 10:43 AM Yaron Shef=
fer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&=
gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi Ka=
thleen,<br>
<br>
I was assuming CoSWIDs (or SWIDs) to become claims anyway, this wasn=E2=80=
=99t what I was asking. My question was whether SWIDs today cover the most =
common technologies that we use to deploy software, other than traditional =
RPM (and equivalent) software packages:<br>
<br>
* Language-specific packages deployed directly into the OS, such as Python =
PIP and Ruby gems.<br>
* Language-specific packages deployed into application servers, such as Jav=
a WAR files and NPM packages.<br>
* Docker containers that consist of multiple &quot;layers&quot;, each possi=
bly including several RPM packages as well as other stuff, like individual =
copied files.<br>
* Lambda functions that are built using their own custom toolset.<br>
<br>
I am completely ignorant about the SWID ecosystem, so maybe the answer is Y=
es to all of the above (though a quick Google search came up with nothing).=
 Any help from experts would be appreciated.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Yaron<br>
<br>
From: Kathleen Moriarty &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.=
com" target=3D"_blank">kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
Date: Friday, November 22, 2019 at 22:15<br>
To: Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
Cc: &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rats@ietf.org<=
/a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rats@ietf.=
org</a>&gt;<br>
Subject: Re: [Rats] Reviewing EAT for enterprise/cloud use cases<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 12:57 AM Yaron Sheffer &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto=
:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wro=
te:<br>
I have read the EAT draft, specifically with a =E2=80=9Ccloud=E2=80=9D use =
case in mind. To clarify, what I&#39;m looking for is the capability:<br>
=C2=A0<br>
- To attest to software components that are running inside VMs, containers =
(either on VMs or bare metal), and anonymous containers (function-as-a-serv=
ice, such as AWS Lambda).<br>
- Such components may be deployed in arbitrary hierarchies (VM-in-VM etc.).=
<br>
- Attestation of running (as opposed to installed) components. For example,=
 container code may be pulled from a remote repository shortly before it is=
 run.<br>
- To support diverse roots-of-trust, such that when a hardware root-of-trus=
t is unavailable, we can have a hypervisor or an orchestration server (e.g.=
 Kubernetes) as the RoT, even if that means a lower level of trust.<br>
=C2=A0<br>
I think in general, EAT can be made to fit these use cases, given its recur=
sive structure. But not surprisingly given its origins, the draft would nee=
d quite a few changes.<br>
=C2=A0<br>
* 1.2 (and 3.12): why not spell out that a submodule can be either a hardwa=
re or software component?<br>
* 1.2: why *dedicated* root of trust, what is it dedicated to? A RoT may ha=
ve other functions; a system may in general have multiple RoTs. The word &q=
uot;dedicated&quot; is not repeated anywhere else in the document, nor is i=
t explained.<br>
* 1.3 continues to only talk hardware, e.g. when defining the &quot;manufac=
turer&quot;. Software has a manufacturer too.<br>
* 3.3: the notion of UEID is fundamentally incompatible with some component=
 types that we would wish to attest. For example, the lifetime of a functio=
n-as-a-service container may be less than a second, and even if it has an i=
dentity during its lifetime, there is no registry or persistent record of t=
his identity. Is a UEID required in this scheme?<br>
* 3.4: hey, finally some software!<br>
=C2=A0<br>
I think we still don&#39;t have a handle on identifying running software, a=
nd CosWID may not be the whole answer. CosWID is more like traditional soft=
ware inventorying, and we need something that will cover dynamic modern sof=
tware.<br>
<br>
I&#39;m going to write up some text for the CoSWID draft that would have a =
CoSWID in an EAT (CWT).=C2=A0 If the entire CoSWID (or even SWID) were in a=
 claim, allowing you to add other claims, would this suffice for your use c=
ase?<br>
<br>
I think I&#39;ll write a draft specific to what CoSWID looks like in an EAT=
 as a follow up and would like coauthors.=C2=A0 I was thinking that might g=
o into SACM, referencing the EAT work.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Kathleen<br>
<br>
=C2=A0<br>
Thanks,<br>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Yaron<br>
=C2=A0<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
RATS mailing list<br>
mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">RATS@ietf.org</a>=
<br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
Kathleen<br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"=
 class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div>Best regards,</div><di=
v>Kathleen</div></div></div>

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In-Reply-To: <01f09bc9-bd79-89da-243d-cd766f297a5b@sit.fraunhofer.de>
From: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 13:26:54 -0500
Message-ID: <CAHbuEH7uEjYK8obQ78B4paaB426Xrhuh+E7SJGsXNi_cRDYYAg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
Cc: "Waltermire, David A. (Fed)" <david.waltermire@nist.gov>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>,  Ira McDonald <blueroofmusic@gmail.com>, sacm <sacm@ietf.org>,  Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, "suit@ietf.org" <suit@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [sacm]  CoSWID and EAT and CWT
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Hi Henk,

I am not entirely following you, so I am not stating agreement yet.

On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 12:06 PM Henk Birkholz <
henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:

> Hi Kathleen,
> hi SACM, SUIT & RATS list,
>
> the corresponding *SWID authors discussed this issue and are proposing:
>
> > https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/issues/46
>
> This includes an extended scope to include the option of SUIT Manifest
> related Claim values, next to various *SWID Claim values. We permutated
> "signed" & "not-signed" as well as "payload tags" and "evidence tags"
> for *SWID tags in this proposal. The authors are convinced that the
> "not-signed" variants are of essence (as CWT does not allow "not-signed
> CBOR items", but also do not imply any implications to the SUIT Manifest
> Claim definition (although there are strong similarities and there could
> be some).
>

Can you write the above again?  Are you saying this in terms of a CWT?
Wouldn't the claims and the text value in a CWT be represented as-is, then
signed, so you'd get what you are saying is needed?

>
> The current *SWID contributors prefer this contribution as a parallel
> effort to the EAT I-D, SUIT Manifest I-D, the CoSWID I-D and existing
> ISO XML SWID standard. This proposal includes the primitive to not delay
> corresponding IETG I-D in their respective WGs.
>

Are you saying you don't want to add text stating the use of a CWT is a
possible alternative, as that is what was requested.  I offered to write a
separate document to put the CoSWID in a CWT in SACM as I think that's the
right home, referencing EAT work.

>
> Having said that, we would like to get feedback for the proposal
> references above.
>
> If there is no dissent or push-back on either the SUIT, SACM, and RATS
> lists, our proposed way forward is a unified creation of EAT Claim Sets
> in the RATS WG that enables the use of various *SWID variants & the SUIT
> Manifest as payloads for RATS via the RATS EAT I-D.
>

I think this should be in SACM.  And I've offered to help.  I do think that
a little text saying it's possible should be in the CoSWID draft and will
provide that soon as not to delay progress of the CoSWID document.

Best regards,
Kathleen

>
> In summary, we would like to create this interop I-D in concert and
> welcome every joint effort in this domain.
>
> Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>
> Henk
>
> On 21.11.19 12:37, Kathleen Moriarty wrote:
> >
> >
> > Sent from my mobile device
> >
> >> On Nov 20, 2019, at 11:29 PM, Waltermire, David A. (Fed)
> >> <david.waltermire@nist.gov> wrote:
> >>
> >> =EF=BB=BF
> >> It sounds like having a CWT claim that contains an entire CoSWID is a
> >> path forward. It may also make sense to do something similar for ISO
> >> SWID tags.
> >>
> >> Am I right in thinking that this CWT work can be done in RATS,
> >> referencing CoSWID once it is published as a normative reference? This
> >> would allow CoSWID to go forward to the IESG, while the CoSWID CWT
> >> claim is worked in parallel in RATS.
> >>
> >> Kathleen, if this is true, does this way forward address your
> >> CWT-related comments?
> >
> > Hi Dave,
> >
> > I think the signature may have to be on the CWT as opposed to on the
> > claim that is the CoSWID or SWID.  We can define it fully in another
> > draft, but should state it here so that option is understood.  It=E2=80=
=99s a
> > simple write up, I think.
> >
> > Thank you,
> > Kathleen
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Dave
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------=
--
> >> *From:* sacm <sacm-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Kathleen Moriarty
> >> <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
> >> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 20, 2019 9:10 PM
> >> *To:* Ira McDonald <blueroofmusic@gmail.com>
> >> *Cc:* rats@ietf.org <rats@ietf.org>; sacm <sacm@ietf.org>; Laurence
> >> Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
> >> *Subject:* Re: [sacm] [Rats] CoSWID and EAT and CWT
> >> Great, thanks Laurence.  If that's easier I think having the CoSWID in
> >> one claim should be ok and would have the same result as the
> >> suggestion I made.  Changing the CoSWID format is a big enough process
> >> that it shouldn't happen very often.
> >>
> >> Best regards,
> >> Kathleen
> >>
> >> On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 8:00 PM Ira McDonald <blueroofmusic@gmail.com
> >> <mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>
> >>     Hi Laurence,
> >>
> >>     That seems like a good suggestion for a simple way to integrate
> >>     CoSWID content
> >>     into EAT.
> >>
> >>     Cheers,
> >>     - Ira
> >>
> >>     Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)
> >>     Co-Chair - TCG Trusted Mobility Solutions WG
> >>     Co-Chair - TCG Metadata Access Protocol SG
> >>     Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG
> >>     Secretary - IEEE-ISTO Printer Working Group
> >>     Co-Chair - IEEE-ISTO PWG Internet Printing Protocol WG
> >>     IETF Designated Expert - IPP & Printer MIB
> >>     Blue Roof Music / High North Inc
> >>     http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic
> >>     <
> https://gcc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fsites.=
google.com%2Fsite%2Fblueroofmusic&data=3D02%7C01%7Cdavid.waltermire%40nist.=
gov%7C92a2dcbadd8d47661b9608d76e282847%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a93e054655c61dec%7=
C1%7C1%7C637098991070417006&sdata=3DGDIVVIesvqqXnuU6TtLbK7GJ4eI1b1EcYSPoXsH=
lj04%3D&reserved=3D0
> >
> >>     http://sites.google.com/site/highnorthinc
> >>     <https://gcc01.safelinks.protection..
> outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fsites.google.com%2Fsite%2Fhighnorthinc&da=
ta=3D02%7C01%7Cdavid.waltermire%40nist.gov%7C92a2dcbadd8d47661b9608d76e2828=
47%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a93e054655c61dec%7C1%7C1%7C637098991070417006&sdata=3D=
7z%2BoMcYSSFD8hAYHmELqNoyGAxTBE9gknbV6kAzKWX8%3D&reserved=3D0
> >
> >>     mailto: blueroofmusic@gmail.com <mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com>
> >>     PO Box 221  Grand Marais, MI 49839  906-494-2434
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>     On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 7:35 PM Laurence Lundblade
> >>     <lgl@island-resort.com <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>> wrote:
> >>
> >>         Hi,
> >>
> >>         I=E2=80=99m not on the SACM list, but did look at the archive.
> >>         Hopefully I=E2=80=99m not out of sync.
> >>
> >>         My thought is to register one claim for CWT that is an entire
> >>         CoSWID (in CDDL the concise-swid-tag).
> >>
> >>         That way CoSWID can grow and develop on its own without lots
> >>         of adds and subtracts to the CWT registry. It has its own IANA
> >>         registry with its own experts and such. Seems like the
> >>         coupling / factoring is about right.
> >>
> >>         This would also be the way I=E2=80=99d like to have it in EAT
> >>         attestation. We=E2=80=99ve done a mini version of this with th=
e
> >>         location claim
> >>         <
> https://gcc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftools=
.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ietf-rats-eat-01%23section-3.8&data=3D02%7C01%7Cda=
vid.waltermire%40nist.gov%7C92a2dcbadd8d47661b9608d76e282847%7C2ab5d82fd8fa=
4797a93e054655c61dec%7C1%7C1%7C637098991070426961&sdata=3D%2Fhi008Am2dlY6tB=
QHdPVVGZzEcWNmqd5MvgPOM14jE8%3D&reserved=3D0
> >.
> >>
> >>         Then if you just want to sign a CoSWID CWT style, this works
> >>         pretty well too. It has a slight overhead compared to having
> >>         all the CoSWID data items as direct CWT claims in that it will
> >>         have an additional map layer, but that is only about three
> bytes.
> >>
> >>         LL
> >>
> >>         _______________________________________________
> >>         RATS mailing list
> >>         RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
> >>         https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
> >>         <
> https://gcc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.i=
etf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Frats&data=3D02%7C01%7Cdavid.waltermire%40nis=
t.gov%7C92a2dcbadd8d47661b9608d76e282847%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a93e054655c61dec=
%7C1%7C1%7C637098991070426961&sdata=3DfdpXMIU%2BNkMSn3RJ4X5AsSuMU7pbokHXlts=
X8ZYP9E0%3D&reserved=3D0
> >
> >>
> >>     _______________________________________________
> >>     sacm mailing list
> >>     sacm@ietf.org <mailto:sacm@ietf.org>
> >>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sacm
> >>     <
> https://gcc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.i=
etf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fsacm&data=3D02%7C01%7Cdavid.waltermire%40nis=
t.gov%7C92a2dcbadd8d47661b9608d76e282847%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a93e054655c61dec=
%7C1%7C1%7C637098991070436893&sdata=3DokSPAqVHj9KBxPtViQdnffsfhlMF4t0%2F87P=
XXY78fA0%3D&reserved=3D0
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >> Best regards,
> >> Kathleen
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > sacm mailing list
> > sacm@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sacm
> >
>


--=20

Best regards,
Kathleen

--0000000000000ee1220597f391cd
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Henk,<div><br></div><div>I am not enti=
rely following you, so I am not stating agreement yet.</div></div><br><div =
class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Nov 22,=
 2019 at 12:06 PM Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fra=
unhofer.de">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockq=
uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1p=
x solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Hi Kathleen,<br>
hi SACM, SUIT &amp; RATS list,<br>
<br>
the corresponding *SWID authors discussed this issue and are proposing:<br>
<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/issues/46" rel=3D"noref=
errer" target=3D"_blank">https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/issues/46</a><=
br>
<br>
This includes an extended scope to include the option of SUIT Manifest <br>
related Claim values, next to various *SWID Claim values. We permutated <br=
>
&quot;signed&quot; &amp; &quot;not-signed&quot; as well as &quot;payload ta=
gs&quot; and &quot;evidence tags&quot; <br>
for *SWID tags in this proposal. The authors are convinced that the <br>
&quot;not-signed&quot; variants are of essence (as CWT does not allow &quot=
;not-signed <br>
CBOR items&quot;, but also do not imply any implications to the SUIT Manife=
st <br>
Claim definition (although there are strong similarities and there could <b=
r>
be some).<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Can you write the above again=
?=C2=A0 Are you saying this in terms of a CWT?=C2=A0 Wouldn&#39;t the claim=
s and the text value in a CWT be represented as-is, then signed, so you&#39=
;d get what you are saying is needed?=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204=
,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
The current *SWID contributors prefer this contribution as a parallel <br>
effort to the EAT I-D, SUIT Manifest I-D, the CoSWID I-D and existing <br>
ISO XML SWID standard. This proposal includes the primitive to not delay <b=
r>
corresponding IETG I-D in their respective WGs.<br></blockquote><div><br></=
div><div>Are you saying you don&#39;t want to add text stating the use of a=
 CWT is a possible alternative, as that is what was requested.=C2=A0 I offe=
red to write a separate document to put the CoSWID in a CWT in SACM as I th=
ink that&#39;s the right home, referencing EAT work.=C2=A0</div><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px so=
lid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Having said that, we would like to get feedback for the proposal <br>
references above.<br>
<br>
If there is no dissent or push-back on either the SUIT, SACM, and RATS <br>
lists, our proposed way forward is a unified creation of EAT Claim Sets <br=
>
in the RATS WG that enables the use of various *SWID variants &amp; the SUI=
T <br>
Manifest as payloads for RATS via the RATS EAT I-D.<br></blockquote><div><b=
r></div><div>I think this should be in SACM.=C2=A0 And I&#39;ve offered to =
help.=C2=A0 I do think that a little text saying it&#39;s possible should b=
e in the CoSWID draft and will provide that soon as not to delay progress o=
f the CoSWID document.</div><div><br></div><div>Best regards,</div><div>Kat=
hleen=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
In summary, we would like to create this interop I-D in concert and <br>
welcome every joint effort in this domain.<br>
<br>
Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,<br>
<br>
Henk<br>
<br>
On 21.11.19 12:37, Kathleen Moriarty wrote:<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Sent from my mobile device<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt;&gt; On Nov 20, 2019, at 11:29 PM, Waltermire, David A. (Fed) <br>
&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:david.waltermire@nist.gov" target=3D"_blank"=
>david.waltermire@nist.gov</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; =EF=BB=BF<br>
&gt;&gt; It sounds like having a CWT claim that contains an entire CoSWID i=
s a <br>
&gt;&gt; path forward. It may also make sense to do something similar for I=
SO <br>
&gt;&gt; SWID tags.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Am I right in thinking that this CWT work can be done in RATS, <br=
>
&gt;&gt; referencing CoSWID once it is published as a normative reference? =
This <br>
&gt;&gt; would allow CoSWID to go forward to the IESG, while the CoSWID CWT=
 <br>
&gt;&gt; claim is worked in parallel in RATS.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Kathleen, if this is true, does this way forward address your <br>
&gt;&gt; CWT-related comments?<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Hi Dave,<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I think the signature may have to be on the CWT as opposed to on the <=
br>
&gt; claim that is the CoSWID or SWID.=C2=A0 We can define it fully in anot=
her <br>
&gt; draft, but should state it here so that option is understood.=C2=A0 It=
=E2=80=99s a <br>
&gt; simple write up, I think.<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; Thank you,<br>
&gt; Kathleen<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Regards,<br>
&gt;&gt; Dave<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; ------------------------------------------------------------------=
------<br>
&gt;&gt; *From:* sacm &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sacm-bounces@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">sacm-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on behalf of Kathleen Moriarty <b=
r>
&gt;&gt; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com" target=3D"=
_blank">kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; *Sent:* Wednesday, November 20, 2019 9:10 PM<br>
&gt;&gt; *To:* Ira McDonald &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank">blueroofmusic@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; *Cc:* <a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rats@ietf=
.org</a> &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rats@ietf.o=
rg</a>&gt;; sacm &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:sacm@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sac=
m@ietf.org</a>&gt;; Laurence <br>
&gt;&gt; Lundblade &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" target=3D"_=
blank">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; *Subject:* Re: [sacm] [Rats] CoSWID and EAT and CWT<br>
&gt;&gt; Great, thanks Laurence.=C2=A0 If that&#39;s easier I think having =
the CoSWID in <br>
&gt;&gt; one claim should be ok and would have the same result as the <br>
&gt;&gt; suggestion I made.=C2=A0 Changing the CoSWID format is a big enoug=
h process <br>
&gt;&gt; that it shouldn&#39;t happen very often.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Best regards,<br>
&gt;&gt; Kathleen<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 8:00 PM Ira McDonald &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:blueroofmusic@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">blueroofmusic@gmail.com</a> <br=
>
&gt;&gt; &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">blueroofmusic@gmail.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi Laurence,<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0That seems like a good suggestion for a simple =
way to integrate<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0CoSWID content<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0into EAT.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Cheers,<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0- Ira<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)<br=
>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Co-Chair - TCG Trusted Mobility Solutions WG<br=
>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Co-Chair - TCG Metadata Access Protocol SG<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Secretary - IEEE-ISTO Printer Working Group<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Co-Chair - IEEE-ISTO PWG Internet Printing Prot=
ocol WG<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0IETF Designated Expert - IPP &amp; Printer MIB<=
br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Blue Roof Music / High North Inc<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"http://sites.google.com/site/blueroo=
fmusic" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://sites.google.com/site/b=
lueroofmusic</a><br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;<a href=3D"https://gcc01.safelinks.protecti=
on.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fsites.google.com%2Fsite%2Fblueroofmusic&=
amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Cdavid.waltermire%40nist.gov%7C92a2dcbadd8d47661b9608d7=
6e282847%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a93e054655c61dec%7C1%7C1%7C637098991070417006&am=
p;sdata=3DGDIVVIesvqqXnuU6TtLbK7GJ4eI1b1EcYSPoXsHlj04%3D&amp;reserved=3D0" =
rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://gcc01.safelinks.protection.out=
look.com/?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fsites.google.com%2Fsite%2Fblueroofmusic&amp;da=
ta=3D02%7C01%7Cdavid.waltermire%40nist.gov%7C92a2dcbadd8d47661b9608d76e2828=
47%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a93e054655c61dec%7C1%7C1%7C637098991070417006&amp;sdat=
a=3DGDIVVIesvqqXnuU6TtLbK7GJ4eI1b1EcYSPoXsHlj04%3D&amp;reserved=3D0</a>&gt;=
<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"http://sites.google.com/site/highnor=
thinc" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">http://sites.google.com/site/hi=
ghnorthinc</a><br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;<a href=3D"https://gcc01.safelinks.protecti=
on." rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://gcc01.safelinks.protectio=
n.</a>.<a href=3D"http://outlook.com/?url=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fsites.google.com%2=
Fsite%2Fhighnorthinc&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Cdavid.waltermire%40nist.gov%7C92a=
2dcbadd8d47661b9608d76e282847%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a93e054655c61dec%7C1%7C1%7C=
637098991070417006&amp;sdata=3D7z%2BoMcYSSFD8hAYHmELqNoyGAxTBE9gknbV6kAzKWX=
8%3D&amp;reserved=3D0" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">outlook.com/?ur=
l=3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fsites.google.com%2Fsite%2Fhighnorthinc&amp;data=3D02%7C01%=
7Cdavid.waltermire%40nist.gov%7C92a2dcbadd8d47661b9608d76e282847%7C2ab5d82f=
d8fa4797a93e054655c61dec%7C1%7C1%7C637098991070417006&amp;sdata=3D7z%2BoMcY=
SSFD8hAYHmELqNoyGAxTBE9gknbV6kAzKWX8%3D&amp;reserved=3D0</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0mailto: <a href=3D"mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.c=
om" target=3D"_blank">blueroofmusic@gmail.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mai=
lto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">blueroofmusic@gmail.com</a>&=
gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0PO Box 221=C2=A0 Grand Marais, MI 49839=C2=A0 9=
06-494-2434<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 7:35 PM Laurence Lundbl=
ade<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" ta=
rget=3D"_blank">lgl@island-resort.com</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:lgl@=
island-resort.com" target=3D"_blank">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt;&gt; wrot=
e:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hi,<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I=E2=80=99m not on the SACM list,=
 but did look at the archive.<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Hopefully I=E2=80=99m not out of =
sync.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0My thought is to register one cla=
im for CWT that is an entire<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0CoSWID (in CDDL the concise-swid-=
tag).<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0That way CoSWID can grow and deve=
lop on its own without lots<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0of adds and subtracts to the CWT =
registry. It has its own IANA<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0registry with its own experts and=
 such. Seems like the<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0coupling / factoring is about rig=
ht.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0This would also be the way I=E2=
=80=99d like to have it in EAT<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0attestation. We=E2=80=99ve done a=
 mini version of this with the<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0location claim<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;<a href=3D"https://gcc01.safe=
links.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fd=
raft-ietf-rats-eat-01%23section-3.8&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Cdavid.waltermire%4=
0nist.gov%7C92a2dcbadd8d47661b9608d76e282847%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a93e054655c6=
1dec%7C1%7C1%7C637098991070426961&amp;sdata=3D%2Fhi008Am2dlY6tBQHdPVVGZzEcW=
Nmqd5MvgPOM14jE8%3D&amp;reserved=3D0" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">=
https://gcc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Ftools.i=
etf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ietf-rats-eat-01%23section-3.8&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7C=
david.waltermire%40nist.gov%7C92a2dcbadd8d47661b9608d76e282847%7C2ab5d82fd8=
fa4797a93e054655c61dec%7C1%7C1%7C637098991070426961&amp;sdata=3D%2Fhi008Am2=
dlY6tBQHdPVVGZzEcWNmqd5MvgPOM14jE8%3D&amp;reserved=3D0</a>&gt;.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Then if you just want to sign a C=
oSWID CWT style, this works<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0pretty well too. It has a slight =
overhead compared to having<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0all the CoSWID data items as dire=
ct CWT claims in that it will<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0have an additional map layer, but=
 that is only about three bytes.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0LL<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0_________________________________=
______________<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0RATS mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank">RATS@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.=
org" target=3D"_blank">RATS@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/m=
ailman/listinfo/rats" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf=
.org/mailman/listinfo/rats</a><br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;<a href=3D"https://gcc01.safe=
links.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2F=
listinfo%2Frats&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Cdavid.waltermire%40nist.gov%7C92a2dcba=
dd8d47661b9608d76e282847%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a93e054655c61dec%7C1%7C1%7C63709=
8991070426961&amp;sdata=3DfdpXMIU%2BNkMSn3RJ4X5AsSuMU7pbokHXltsX8ZYP9E0%3D&=
amp;reserved=3D0" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://gcc01.safeli=
nks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Fli=
stinfo%2Frats&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Cdavid.waltermire%40nist.gov%7C92a2dcbadd=
8d47661b9608d76e282847%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a93e054655c61dec%7C1%7C1%7C6370989=
91070426961&amp;sdata=3DfdpXMIU%2BNkMSn3RJ4X5AsSuMU7pbokHXltsX8ZYP9E0%3D&am=
p;reserved=3D0</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0_______________________________________________=
<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0sacm mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"mailto:sacm@ietf.org" target=3D"_bla=
nk">sacm@ietf.org</a> &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:sacm@ietf.org" target=3D=
"_blank">sacm@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinf=
o/sacm" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/l=
istinfo/sacm</a><br>
&gt;&gt;=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&lt;<a href=3D"https://gcc01.safelinks.protecti=
on.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fsac=
m&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Cdavid.waltermire%40nist.gov%7C92a2dcbadd8d47661b9608=
d76e282847%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a93e054655c61dec%7C1%7C1%7C637098991070436893&=
amp;sdata=3DokSPAqVHj9KBxPtViQdnffsfhlMF4t0%2F87PXXY78fA0%3D&amp;reserved=
=3D0" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://gcc01.safelinks.protecti=
on.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fsac=
m&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7Cdavid.waltermire%40nist.gov%7C92a2dcbadd8d47661b9608=
d76e282847%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a93e054655c61dec%7C1%7C1%7C637098991070436893&=
amp;sdata=3DokSPAqVHj9KBxPtViQdnffsfhlMF4t0%2F87PXXY78fA0%3D&amp;reserved=
=3D0</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; -- <br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Best regards,<br>
&gt;&gt; Kathleen<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; sacm mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:sacm@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">sacm@ietf.org</a><b=
r>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sacm" rel=3D"noreferr=
er" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sacm</a><br>
&gt; <br>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"=
 class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div>Best regards,</div><di=
v>Kathleen</div></div></div></div>

--0000000000000ee1220597f391cd--


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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
To: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
CC: "suit@ietf.org" <suit@ietf.org>, sacm <sacm@ietf.org>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, Ira McDonald <blueroofmusic@gmail.com>, "Waltermire, David A. (Fed)" <david.waltermire@nist.gov>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] [sacm]  CoSWID and EAT and CWT
Thread-Index: AQHVoVdERUlUpfZbOEKEXvzBDRBA7aeYCEIA//+ONYA=
Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 19:39:38 +0000
Message-ID: <65CFC5E3-1B46-4235-B4F4-692F475AC80F@intel.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [sacm]  CoSWID and EAT and CWT
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Comments: In-reply-to Dave Thaler <dthaler=40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org> message dated "Fri, 15 Nov 2019 07:38:32 +0000."
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Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2019 14:33:38 +0800
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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{why do people insist on CC people who are on the list?
Do you enjoy getting three copies of emails with different headers}

Dave Thaler <dthaler=40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
    > I have not yet seen a compelling reason to use a pull-based mechanism
    > instead of a push-based mechanism via another protocol the routers
    > already support.

I agree.

    > In order to know who to pull data from, the Verifier has to have some
    > indication from the Attester that triggers the attestation request
    > indicated as Step 1 in draft-fedorkow-rats-network-device-attestation.
    > So in reality, there has to be a step before step 1,
    > whereby the Attester does something that makes the Attester
    > discoverable by the Verifier.   That step could have included the EAT
    > or the TPM data

I have a todo item to write up:
  1) a use case for Attestation at BSKI onboarding time.
     (really this is a RIV sub-case, I think)

  2) a document explaining how to carry EAT in BRSKI voucher-requests and
     RFC8366 vouchers.

That works well for initial attestation before a device is accepted onto a
network, but does not manage the ongoing safety of the device.  An open item
in BRSKI is finding a way to signal that a device supports RESTCONF, and
should have it's configuration loaded in that way.
That signaling could very well indicate that attestation is available that
way; well actually I think that once RESTCONF is up, the controller can
discover that it supports our EAT-YANG-module.

Having said all of this, I was surprised that my question on Friday's meeting
about what claims would be in the EAT that be returned from
entity-attestation-token-challenge-response did not elicit more understanding
and aha.

I want to be clear: I object to including the EAT in the *TPM* module,
because:
  1) it's mixing two different things and there is no reason a device
     that supports one should have to support the other.
  2) I believe that the use case is completely different.
  3) returning EATs is way too important to get it wrong like this.


--
]               Never tell me the odds!                 | ipv6 mesh networks [
]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works        | network architect  [
]     mcr@sandelman.ca  http://www.sandelman.ca/        |   ruby on rails    [


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To: "rats\@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, "Xialiang \(Frank\, Network Standard & Patent Dept\)" <frank.xialiang@huawei.com>
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Comments: In-reply-to "Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)" <frank.xialiang@huawei.com> message dated "Mon, 18 Nov 2019 10:39:21 +0000."
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"Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)" wrote:
    > Policy Enforcement Point or Policy Decision Point?

*I take the fifth*
(what? Singapore and Canada do not let me avoid testifying against myself?)

I think it could be either, but it depends upon the architecture of system/=
network.

    > -----=E9=82=AE=E4=BB=B6=E5=8E=9F=E4=BB=B6-----=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=
=BA=BA: RATS [mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org] =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8
    > Michael Richardson=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2019=E5=B9=B4=
11=E6=9C=8818=E6=97=A5 18:34=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: rats@ietf.org=E4=
=B8=BB
    > =E9=A2=98: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang=
 module
    > draft


    >>> Case 1) The network notices anomalous traffic coming from a device
    >>> already on the network, which triggers a verifier to ask the device
    >>> to attest to its health (which may have changed since it was last
    >>> attested).  Here there might even be no Relying Party involved per
    >>> se.

    >>> Case 2) The network has not noticed anything odd, but wants to
    >>> proactively query a device anyway, e.g., because the network's
    >>> appraisal policy of what is considered trustworthy has just changed.
    >>> Again there might even be no Relying Party involved.

    > Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com> wrote:
    >> I would call the network the relying party. Attestation always has a
    >> relying party because there would be no point if no one cared (if a
    >> tree falls in a forest=E2=80=A6)

    > I would be even more specific to say that the network's Policy
    > Enforcement Point is the relying party.


    > --
    > Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works =
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    > _______________________________________________ RATS mailing list
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/2uXR47pgM6ZqCx0ukegeapsBOeI>
Subject: Re: [Rats] EAT IANA registry
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One of our thoughts is that EAT profiles will help with this. For =
example, a special profile for toasters might list 5 claims that must be =
included in every attestation and 10 claims that are optional and maybe =
even prohibit all others.

LL


> On Nov 22, 2019, at 6:57 AM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> Hi Hannes,
> =20
> Looking at the JWT claim IANA registry [1], it is already a terrible =
mess of several different standards, obviously with many more coming. I =
guess what=E2=80=99s done is done, and I=E2=80=99ll take back my =
objection.
> =20
> Thanks,
>                 Yaron
> =20
> [1] https://www.iana.org/assignments/jwt/jwt.xhtml#claims =
<https://www.iana.org/assignments/jwt/jwt.xhtml#claims>
> =20
> From: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com =
<mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>>
> Date: Friday, November 22, 2019 at 14:17
> To: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com =
<mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>>, "rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org>" =
<rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org>>
> Subject: RE: EAT IANA registry
> =20
> Yaron,=20
> Could you explain why you think that this is a good idea?=20
> Ciao
> Hannes
> =20
> From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>> On =
Behalf Of Yaron Sheffer
> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2019 2:05 PM
> To: rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org>
> Subject: [Rats] EAT IANA registry
> =20
> Unrelated to my earlier mail, I would recommend to create a separate =
registry for EAT claims (I suppose that implies a nested object in the =
JWT/CWT) rather than to overload the CWT registry. Architecturally it =
just doesn=E2=80=99t jive to have all these claims as baseline CWT =
claims, and process-wise, it=E2=80=99s much more convenient for this =
group to control its own namespace.
> =20
> Sorry if this has been raised before.
> =20
> Thanks,
>                 Yaron
> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are =
confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended =
recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the =
contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy =
the information in any medium. Thank you.=20
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats>

--Apple-Mail=_0F33BB2B-E50A-4B45-8712-AB3704325A90
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">One =
of our thoughts is that EAT profiles will help with this. For example, a =
special profile for toasters might list 5 claims that must be included =
in every attestation and 10 claims that are optional and maybe even =
prohibit all others.<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Nov =
22, 2019, at 6:57 AM, Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">Hi Hannes,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">Looking at the =
JWT claim IANA registry [1], it is already a terrible mess of several =
different standards, obviously with many more coming. I guess what=E2=80=99=
s done is done, and I=E2=80=99ll take back my objection.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">Thanks,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Yaron<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">[1]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://www.iana.org/assignments/jwt/jwt.xhtml#claims" =
style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://www.iana.org/assignments/jwt/jwt.xhtml#claims</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"border-style: solid =
none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); =
padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"" class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span style=3D"" =
class=3D"">Hannes Tschofenig &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com" style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, =
114); text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Date:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Friday, November 22, =
2019 at 14:17<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;, =
"<a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">rats@ietf.org</a>" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">rats@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>RE: EAT IANA =
registry<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" =
class=3D"">Yaron,<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">Could you explain why you think =
that this is a good idea?<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">Ciao</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">Hannes</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style: solid =
none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); =
padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" =
class=3D"">From:</span></b><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" =
class=3D""><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>RATS =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color: rgb(149, =
79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b class=3D"">On Behalf =
Of<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Yaron =
Sheffer<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Friday, November 22, 2019 =
2:05 PM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" style=3D"color: rgb(149, 79, 114); =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">rats@ietf.org</a><br class=3D""><b=
 class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>[Rats] EAT IANA =
registry</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" =
class=3D"">Unrelated to my earlier mail, I would recommend to create a =
separate registry for EAT claims (I suppose that implies a nested object =
in the JWT/CWT) rather than to overload the CWT registry. =
Architecturally it just doesn=E2=80=99t jive to have all these claims as =
baseline CWT claims, and process-wise, it=E2=80=99s much more convenient =
for this group to control its own namespace.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">Sorry if this has been raised =
before.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" class=3D"">Thanks,</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Yaron</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" =
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attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not =
the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not =
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From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
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Cc: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
References: <B099349B-711D-4A11-9E58-0886307FB7AF@island-resort.com> <CAHbuEH6qtVbzRXUALKBrr3butc8qT8Y81X-nQ6+PjC1n08CkvA@mail.gmail.com> <5DB30E08-9AB2-452A-B8D6-55BFD0AE5264@island-resort.com> <CAHbuEH4R4GZQCq9E1Nza8uPC=jxiM-FkV4tMrv9B==GsjvCLtw@mail.gmail.com> <34EB67FD-E76A-4132-87C4-C89EA70C9365@intel.com> <DC9F1051-E33A-477F-A855-2FBA33F8E8DF@island-resort.com> <cbb5f662-b073-5b5b-e504-56ea66b72744@sit.fraunhofer.de> <5A3105EA-8E54-4BB9-B266-96B6645811A1@island-resort.com> <c4967ed2-e484-d8c9-406b-8e1bb1b3b88d@sit.fraunhofer.de> <FF6F2CEE-1049-4B6C-8E12-9E21FE92D2F2@island-resort.com> <3285c3da-0748-5607-90ed-ac024ac826d0@sit.fraunhofer.de> <0384FAEE-6C5B-4A99-BBA0-F080DD27AA9B@island-resort.com> <def7a722-e357-a12a-1467-8ff8c442337e@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Two types of secure attestation
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> On Nov 21, 2019, at 6:26 PM, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
>=20
> There are no semantic difference between the "simple non-TPM EAT" =
scenario and the TPM-based implicit remote attestation scenario. They =
are if fact the "same types of secure attestation=E2=80=9D.


I don=E2=80=99t have any need to drive taxonomic distinction when =
unnecessary, but note that the YANG module has to have explicit =
different facilities to be able to handle both.

The verifier implementations for these two types are also very =
different. in the "non-TPM EAT=E2=80=9D scenario no known-good-values =
for SW hashes are need to be supplied to the verifier.

I don=E2=80=99t think these are the only differences that we=E2=80=99ll =
encounter in real implementations.=20

This should probably all be described the architecture document. Seems =
as significant as the passport vs background check distinction.

LL
=20


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
Nov 21, 2019, at 6:26 PM, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">There are no semantic difference =
between the "simple non-TPM EAT" scenario and the TPM-based implicit =
remote attestation scenario. They are if fact the "same types of secure =
attestation=E2=80=9D.</span></div></blockquote><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I don=E2=80=99t have any =
need to drive taxonomic distinction when unnecessary, but note that the =
YANG module has to have explicit different facilities to be able to =
handle both.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>The verifier =
implementations for these two types are also very different. in the =
"non-TPM EAT=E2=80=9D scenario no known-good-values for SW hashes are =
need to be supplied to the verifier.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>I=
 don=E2=80=99t think these are the only differences that we=E2=80=99ll =
encounter in real implementations.&nbsp;</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>This should probably all be described the =
architecture document. Seems as significant as the passport vs =
background check distinction.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>LL</div><div>&nbsp;</div><br =
class=3D""></body></html>=

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Hi Yaron,

I don=E2=80=99t think there=E2=80=99s any philosophical or fundamental =
problem with changes to EAT so it can apply to VM=E2=80=99s / software. =
It is still an early draft and it has some biases from its origin, but =
we can adjust.

All claims are optional, so UEID is not required.

I would really hope that CoSWID can be the answer to all our SW =
Inventory and version needs. Maybe even including boot ROM and firmware =
versions. Agreed that SW has a manufacturer too.

LL



> On Nov 21, 2019, at 9:57 PM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> I have read the EAT draft, specifically with a =E2=80=9Ccloud=E2=80=9D =
use case in mind. To clarify, what I'm looking for is the capability:
> =20
> - To attest to software components that are running inside VMs, =
containers (either on VMs or bare metal), and anonymous containers =
(function-as-a-service, such as AWS Lambda).
> - Such components may be deployed in arbitrary hierarchies (VM-in-VM =
etc.).
> - Attestation of running (as opposed to installed) components. For =
example, container code may be pulled from a remote repository shortly =
before it is run.
> - To support diverse roots-of-trust, such that when a hardware =
root-of-trust is unavailable, we can have a hypervisor or an =
orchestration server (e.g. Kubernetes) as the RoT, even if that means a =
lower level of trust.
> =20
> I think in general, EAT can be made to fit these use cases, given its =
recursive structure. But not surprisingly given its origins, the draft =
would need quite a few changes.
> =20
> * 1.2 (and 3.12): why not spell out that a submodule can be either a =
hardware or software component?
> * 1.2: why *dedicated* root of trust, what is it dedicated to? A RoT =
may have other functions; a system may in general have multiple RoTs. =
The word "dedicated" is not repeated anywhere else in the document, nor =
is it explained.
> * 1.3 continues to only talk hardware, e.g. when defining the =
"manufacturer". Software has a manufacturer too.
> * 3.3: the notion of UEID is fundamentally incompatible with some =
component types that we would wish to attest. For example, the lifetime =
of a function-as-a-service container may be less than a second, and even =
if it has an identity during its lifetime, there is no registry or =
persistent record of this identity. Is a UEID required in this scheme?
> * 3.4: hey, finally some software!
> =20
> I think we still don't have a handle on identifying running software, =
and CosWID may not be the whole answer. CosWID is more like traditional =
software inventorying, and we need something that will cover dynamic =
modern software.
> =20
> Thanks,
>                 Yaron
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats>

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Hi =
Yaron,<div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I don=E2=80=99t=
 think there=E2=80=99s any philosophical or fundamental problem with =
changes to EAT so it can apply to VM=E2=80=99s / software. It is still =
an early draft and it has some biases from its origin, but we can =
adjust.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">All =
claims are optional, so UEID is not required.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I would really hope that CoSWID can be =
the answer to all our SW Inventory and version needs. Maybe even =
including boot ROM and firmware versions. Agreed that SW has a =
manufacturer too.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
Nov 21, 2019, at 9:57 PM, Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: -webkit-standard, serif;" =
class=3D"">I have read the EAT draft, specifically with a =E2=80=9Ccloud=E2=
=80=9D use case in mind. To clarify, what I'm looking for is the =
capability:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
-webkit-standard, serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
-webkit-standard, serif;" class=3D"">- To attest to software components =
that are running inside VMs, containers (either on VMs or bare metal), =
and anonymous containers (function-as-a-service, such as AWS =
Lambda).<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
-webkit-standard, serif;" class=3D"">- Such components may be deployed =
in arbitrary hierarchies (VM-in-VM etc.).<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: -webkit-standard, serif;" =
class=3D"">- Attestation of running (as opposed to installed) =
components. For example, container code may be pulled from a remote =
repository shortly before it is run.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: -webkit-standard, serif;" =
class=3D"">- To support diverse roots-of-trust, such that when a =
hardware root-of-trust is unavailable, we can have a hypervisor or an =
orchestration server (e.g. Kubernetes) as the RoT, even if that means a =
lower level of trust.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: -webkit-standard, serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
-webkit-standard, serif;" class=3D"">I think in general, EAT can be made =
to fit these use cases, given its recursive structure. But not =
surprisingly given its origins, the draft would need quite a few =
changes.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
-webkit-standard, serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
-webkit-standard, serif;" class=3D"">* 1.2 (and 3.12): why not spell out =
that a submodule can be either a hardware or software component?<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: -webkit-standard, serif;" =
class=3D"">* 1.2: why *dedicated* root of trust, what is it dedicated =
to? A RoT may have other functions; a system may in general have =
multiple RoTs. The word "dedicated" is not repeated anywhere else in the =
document, nor is it explained.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: -webkit-standard, serif;" class=3D"">* 1.3 continues to =
only talk hardware, e.g. when defining the "manufacturer". Software has =
a manufacturer too.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: -webkit-standard, serif;" class=3D"">* 3.3: the notion of =
UEID is fundamentally incompatible with some component types that we =
would wish to attest. For example, the lifetime of a =
function-as-a-service container may be less than a second, and even if =
it has an identity during its lifetime, there is no registry or =
persistent record of this identity. Is a UEID required in this =
scheme?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
-webkit-standard, serif;" class=3D"">* 3.4: hey, finally some =
software!<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
-webkit-standard, serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
-webkit-standard, serif;" class=3D"">I think we still don't have a =
handle on identifying running software, and CosWID may not be the whole =
answer. CosWID is more like traditional software inventorying, and we =
need something that will cover dynamic modern software.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: -webkit-standard, serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
-webkit-standard, serif;" class=3D"">Thanks,<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: -webkit-standard, serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Yaron<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></span></div></div><span =
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text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________</span><br =
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text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
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display: inline !important;" class=3D"">RATS mailing list</span><br =
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Thread-Topic: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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From: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
To: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] Two types of secure attestation
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Two types of secure attestation
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Two types of secure attestation
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Hi Ned, (we missed seeing you in person)

Primarily the difference between TPM-style that doesn=E2=80=99t rely on =
secure boot and non-TPM-style that does rely on secure boot.=20

You can and will implicit claims in either.

TPM-style is not going to have explicit claims unless you do TPM + EAT =
style. (Hmmm, should that be in the architecture and the YANG module?)

Makes sense, right?

LL



> On Nov 23, 2019, at 11:20 AM, Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com> wrote:
>=20
> @laurence - By =E2=80=9Cthis=E2=80=9D you mean the difference between =
implicit and explicit attestation?
> =20
> From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org>> on =
behalf of Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com =
<mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>>
> Date: Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 8:44 AM
> To: Henk Berkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>>
> Cc: "rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org>" <rats@ietf.org =
<mailto:rats@ietf.org>>, Kathleen Moriarty =
<kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com =
<mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>>, "Smith, Ned" =
<ned.smith@intel.com <mailto:ned.smith@intel.com>>
> Subject: Re: [Rats] Two types of secure attestation
> =20
> =20
>> On Nov 21, 2019, at 6:26 PM, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
>> =20
>> There are no semantic difference between the "simple non-TPM EAT" =
scenario and the TPM-based implicit remote attestation scenario. They =
are if fact the "same types of secure attestation=E2=80=9D.
> =20
> =20
> I don=E2=80=99t have any need to drive taxonomic distinction when =
unnecessary, but note that the YANG module has to have explicit =
different facilities to be able to handle both.
> =20
> The verifier implementations for these two types are also very =
different. in the "non-TPM EAT=E2=80=9D scenario no known-good-values =
for SW hashes are need to be supplied to the verifier.
> =20
> I don=E2=80=99t think these are the only differences that we=E2=80=99ll =
encounter in real implementations.=20
> =20
> This should probably all be described the architecture document. Seems =
as significant as the passport vs background check distinction.
> =20
> LL
> =20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats>

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">Hi =
Ned, (we missed seeing you in person)<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Primarily the difference between =
TPM-style that doesn=E2=80=99t rely on secure boot and non-TPM-style =
that does rely on secure boot.&nbsp;<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">You can and will implicit claims in =
either.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">TPM-style is not going to have explicit claims unless you do =
TPM + EAT style. (Hmmm, should that be in the architecture and the YANG =
module?)</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Makes =
sense, right?</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Nov 23, 2019, at 11:20 AM, Smith, Ned =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com" =
class=3D"">ned.smith@intel.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">@laurence =
- By =E2=80=9Cthis=E2=80=9D you mean the difference between implicit and =
explicit attestation?<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"border-style: =
solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, =
223); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" =
class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">RATS &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">rats-bounces@ietf.org</a>&gt; on =
behalf of Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Date:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Saturday, November 23, =
2019 at 8:44 AM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Henk Berkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>"<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">rats@ietf.org</a>" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">rats@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Kathleen Moriarty &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;, "Smith, Ned" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:ned.smith@intel.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">ned.smith@intel.com</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [Rats] Two types of =
secure attestation<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><blockquote =
style=3D"margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D"" =
type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt =
0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On =
Nov 21, 2019, at 6:26 PM, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt =
0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p=
 class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" =
class=3D"">There are no semantic difference between the "simple non-TPM =
EAT" scenario and the TPM-based implicit remote attestation scenario. =
They are if fact the "same types of secure attestation=E2=80=9D.</span><o:=
p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></blockquote><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">I don=E2=80=99t have any need to drive taxonomic =
distinction when unnecessary, but note that the YANG module has to have =
explicit different facilities to be able to handle both.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">The verifier implementations for these =
two types are also very different. in the "non-TPM EAT=E2=80=9D scenario =
no known-good-values for SW hashes are need to be supplied to the =
verifier.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">I don=E2=80=99t think these are the only =
differences that we=E2=80=99ll encounter in real =
implementations.&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">This should probably all be described the =
architecture document. Seems as significant as the passport vs =
background check distinction.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif;" class=3D"">LL<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt 0.5in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt =
0.5in; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
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text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________</span><br =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
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text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
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12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
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text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
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Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2019 11:00:10 +0200
From: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
To: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, Dave Waltermire <davewaltermire@gmail.com>, "Banghart, Stephen A. (Fed)" <stephen.banghart@nist.gov>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <93829618-28A7-417A-B9EA-90CC27E36CE3@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: CoSWID, was Re: Reviewing EAT for enterprise/cloud use cases
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Subject: Re: [Rats] CoSWID, was Re: Reviewing EAT for enterprise/cloud use cases
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Hi Kathleen,

=20

Thanks for the reference. I just read the draft, and I don=E2=80=99t think it ans=
wers my questions.

=20

Best,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Yaron

=20

From: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Friday, November 22, 2019 at 20:20
To: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, Dave Waltermire <davewaltermire@=
gmail.com>, "Banghart, Stephen A. (Fed)" <stephen.banghart@nist.gov>
Cc: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: CoSWID, was Re: Reviewing EAT for enterprise/cloud use cases

=20

Hi Yaron,

=20

I am copying Dave and Stephen in case they are not following RATS as closel=
y as they do SACM.  Have you looked at the CoSWID draft in SACM?  It contain=
s the full SWID format as it is translated into CoSWID.  It may answer some =
of your questions.  I'm swamped today, but can look at this stuff more next =
week or the following week and am interested.

=20

Best regards,

Kathleen

=20

On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 10:43 AM Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com> wrot=
e:

Hi Kathleen,

I was assuming CoSWIDs (or SWIDs) to become claims anyway, this wasn=E2=80=99t wh=
at I was asking. My question was whether SWIDs today cover the most common t=
echnologies that we use to deploy software, other than traditional RPM (and =
equivalent) software packages:

* Language-specific packages deployed directly into the OS, such as Python =
PIP and Ruby gems.
* Language-specific packages deployed into application servers, such as Jav=
a WAR files and NPM packages.
* Docker containers that consist of multiple "layers", each possibly includ=
ing several RPM packages as well as other stuff, like individual copied file=
s.
* Lambda functions that are built using their own custom toolset.

I am completely ignorant about the SWID ecosystem, so maybe the answer is Y=
es to all of the above (though a quick Google search came up with nothing). =
Any help from experts would be appreciated.

Thanks,
        Yaron

From: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Friday, November 22, 2019 at 22:15
To: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Rats] Reviewing EAT for enterprise/cloud use cases



On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 12:57 AM Yaron Sheffer <mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.co=
m> wrote:
I have read the EAT draft, specifically with a =E2=80=9Ccloud=E2=80=9D use case in mind=
. To clarify, what I'm looking for is the capability:
=20
- To attest to software components that are running inside VMs, containers =
(either on VMs or bare metal), and anonymous containers (function-as-a-servi=
ce, such as AWS Lambda).
- Such components may be deployed in arbitrary hierarchies (VM-in-VM etc.).
- Attestation of running (as opposed to installed) components. For example,=
 container code may be pulled from a remote repository shortly before it is =
run.
- To support diverse roots-of-trust, such that when a hardware root-of-trus=
t is unavailable, we can have a hypervisor or an orchestration server (e.g. =
Kubernetes) as the RoT, even if that means a lower level of trust.
=20
I think in general, EAT can be made to fit these use cases, given its recur=
sive structure. But not surprisingly given its origins, the draft would need=
 quite a few changes.
=20
* 1.2 (and 3.12): why not spell out that a submodule can be either a hardwa=
re or software component?
* 1.2: why *dedicated* root of trust, what is it dedicated to? A RoT may ha=
ve other functions; a system may in general have multiple RoTs. The word "de=
dicated" is not repeated anywhere else in the document, nor is it explained.
* 1.3 continues to only talk hardware, e.g. when defining the "manufacturer=
". Software has a manufacturer too.
* 3.3: the notion of UEID is fundamentally incompatible with some component=
 types that we would wish to attest. For example, the lifetime of a function=
-as-a-service container may be less than a second, and even if it has an ide=
ntity during its lifetime, there is no registry or persistent record of this=
 identity. Is a UEID required in this scheme?
* 3.4: hey, finally some software!
=20
I think we still don't have a handle on identifying running software, and C=
osWID may not be the whole answer. CosWID is more like traditional software =
inventorying, and we need something that will cover dynamic modern software.

I'm going to write up some text for the CoSWID draft that would have a CoSW=
ID in an EAT (CWT).  If the entire CoSWID (or even SWID) were in a claim, al=
lowing you to add other claims, would this suffice for your use case?

I think I'll write a draft specific to what CoSWID looks like in an EAT as =
a follow up and would like coauthors.  I was thinking that might go into SAC=
M, referencing the EAT work.

Best regards,
Kathleen

=20
Thanks,
                Yaron
=20
_______________________________________________
RATS mailing list
mailto:RATS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats



--=20

Best regards,
Kathleen



=20

--=20

=20

Best regards,

Kathleen


--B_3657438011_802347946
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<html xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schema=
s-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/20=
04/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta http-equiv=3DC=
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--></style></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSe=
ction1><p class=3DMsoNormal>Hi Kathleen,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p=
>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks for the reference. I just read th=
e draft, and I don=E2=80=99t think it answers my questions.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Best,<o:p></o:p></p><p cl=
ass=3DMsoNormal>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Yaron<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMs=
oNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4D=
F 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-s=
ize:12.0pt;color:black'>From: </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color=
:black'>Kathleen Moriarty &lt;kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com&gt;<br><b>Dat=
e: </b>Friday, November 22, 2019 at 20:20<br><b>To: </b>Yaron Sheffer &lt;ya=
ronf.ietf@gmail.com&gt;, Dave Waltermire &lt;davewaltermire@gmail.com&gt;, &=
quot;Banghart, Stephen A. (Fed)&quot; &lt;stephen.banghart@nist.gov&gt;<br><=
b>Cc: </b>&quot;rats@ietf.org&quot; &lt;rats@ietf.org&gt;<br><b>Subject: </b=
>Re: CoSWID, was Re: Reviewing EAT for enterprise/cloud use cases<o:p></o:p>=
</span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Hi Yaron,<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;<=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I am copying Dave and Stephen in case=
 they are not following RATS as closely as they do SACM.&nbsp; Have you look=
ed at the CoSWID draft in SACM?&nbsp; It contains the full SWID format as it=
 is translated into CoSWID.&nbsp; It may answer some of your questions.&nbsp=
; I'm swamped today, but can look at this stuff more next week or the follow=
ing week and am interested.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p=
>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Best regards,<o:p></o:p></p><=
/div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Kathleen<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=3DMso=
Normal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On Fri, Nov 22, 201=
9 at 10:43 AM Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com">yaron=
f.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style=3D'borde=
r:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left=
:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Hi =
Kathleen,<br><br>I was assuming CoSWIDs (or SWIDs) to become claims anyway, =
this wasn=E2=80=99t what I was asking. My question was whether SWIDs today cover t=
he most common technologies that we use to deploy software, other than tradi=
tional RPM (and equivalent) software packages:<br><br>* Language-specific pa=
ckages deployed directly into the OS, such as Python PIP and Ruby gems.<br>*=
 Language-specific packages deployed into application servers, such as Java =
WAR files and NPM packages.<br>* Docker containers that consist of multiple =
&quot;layers&quot;, each possibly including several RPM packages as well as =
other stuff, like individual copied files.<br>* Lambda functions that are bu=
ilt using their own custom toolset.<br><br>I am completely ignorant about th=
e SWID ecosystem, so maybe the answer is Yes to all of the above (though a q=
uick Google search came up with nothing). Any help from experts would be app=
reciated.<br><br>Thanks,<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Yaron<br><br>From: K=
athleen Moriarty &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>Date: Friday, Novembe=
r 22, 2019 at 22:15<br>To: Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gma=
il.com" target=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;<br>Cc: &quot;<a href=3D"=
mailto:rats@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rats@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:rats@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">rats@ietf.org</a>&gt;<br>Subject: Re: [=
Rats] Reviewing EAT for enterprise/cloud use cases<br><br><br><br>On Fri, No=
v 22, 2019 at 12:57 AM Yaron Sheffer &lt;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@=
gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>I have re=
ad the EAT draft, specifically with a =E2=80=9Ccloud=E2=80=9D use case in mind. To clari=
fy, what I'm looking for is the capability:<br>&nbsp;<br>- To attest to soft=
ware components that are running inside VMs, containers (either on VMs or ba=
re metal), and anonymous containers (function-as-a-service, such as AWS Lamb=
da).<br>- Such components may be deployed in arbitrary hierarchies (VM-in-VM=
 etc.).<br>- Attestation of running (as opposed to installed) components. Fo=
r example, container code may be pulled from a remote repository shortly bef=
ore it is run.<br>- To support diverse roots-of-trust, such that when a hard=
ware root-of-trust is unavailable, we can have a hypervisor or an orchestrat=
ion server (e.g. Kubernetes) as the RoT, even if that means a lower level of=
 trust.<br>&nbsp;<br>I think in general, EAT can be made to fit these use ca=
ses, given its recursive structure. But not surprisingly given its origins, =
the draft would need quite a few changes.<br>&nbsp;<br>* 1.2 (and 3.12): why=
 not spell out that a submodule can be either a hardware or software compone=
nt?<br>* 1.2: why *dedicated* root of trust, what is it dedicated to? A RoT =
may have other functions; a system may in general have multiple RoTs. The wo=
rd &quot;dedicated&quot; is not repeated anywhere else in the document, nor =
is it explained.<br>* 1.3 continues to only talk hardware, e.g. when definin=
g the &quot;manufacturer&quot;. Software has a manufacturer too.<br>* 3.3: t=
he notion of UEID is fundamentally incompatible with some component types th=
at we would wish to attest. For example, the lifetime of a function-as-a-ser=
vice container may be less than a second, and even if it has an identity dur=
ing its lifetime, there is no registry or persistent record of this identity=
. Is a UEID required in this scheme?<br>* 3.4: hey, finally some software!<b=
r>&nbsp;<br>I think we still don't have a handle on identifying running soft=
ware, and CosWID may not be the whole answer. CosWID is more like traditiona=
l software inventorying, and we need something that will cover dynamic moder=
n software.<br><br>I'm going to write up some text for the CoSWID draft that=
 would have a CoSWID in an EAT (CWT).&nbsp; If the entire CoSWID (or even SW=
ID) were in a claim, allowing you to add other claims, would this suffice fo=
r your use case?<br><br>I think I'll write a draft specific to what CoSWID l=
ooks like in an EAT as a follow up and would like coauthors.&nbsp; I was thi=
nking that might go into SACM, referencing the EAT work.<br><br>Best regards=
,<br>Kathleen<br><br>&nbsp;<br>Thanks,<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Yaron<br>&nbsp;<br>=
_______________________________________________<br>RATS mailing list<br>mail=
to:<a href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">RATS@ietf.org</a><br><a hr=
ef=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats" target=3D"_blank">https://www.=
ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats</a><br><br><br><br>-- <br><br>Best regards,<b=
r>Kathleen<br><br><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><br c=
lear=3Dall><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><=
p class=3DMsoNormal>-- <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;=
</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Best regards,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Kathleen<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div></body></html=
>

--B_3657438011_802347946--



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Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2019 12:54:57 +0200
From: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
CC: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Message-ID: <31B9F6C7-74E2-4B9E-933C-77D7B51E21E7@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] EAT IANA registry
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Subject: Re: [Rats] EAT IANA registry
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Hi Laurence,

=20

Yes, such profiles would certainly be helpful for attestation.=20

=20

Unfortunately they would not solve the fundamental problem that a developer=
 who wishes to use JWT for anything, not necessarily attestation, is faced w=
ith a registry that he or she has no chance of figuring out.

=20

Thanks,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Yaron

=20

From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
Date: Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 18:29
To: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ie=
tf.org>
Subject: Re: [Rats] EAT IANA registry

=20

One of our thoughts is that EAT profiles will help with this. For example, =
a special profile for toasters might list 5 claims that must be included in =
every attestation and 10 claims that are optional and maybe even prohibit al=
l others.

=20

LL

=20



On Nov 22, 2019, at 6:57 AM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

=20

Hi Hannes,

=20

Looking at the JWT claim IANA registry [1], it is already a terrible mess o=
f several different standards, obviously with many more coming. I guess what=
=E2=80=99s done is done, and I=E2=80=99ll take back my objection.

=20

Thanks,

                Yaron

=20

[1] https://www.iana.org/assignments/jwt/jwt.xhtml#claims

=20

From: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
Date: Friday, November 22, 2019 at 14:17
To: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: EAT IANA registry

=20

Yaron,=20

Could you explain why you think that this is a good idea?=20

Ciao

Hannes

=20

From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Yaron Sheffer
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2019 2:05 PM
To: rats@ietf.org
Subject: [Rats] EAT IANA registry

=20

Unrelated to my earlier mail, I would recommend to create a separate regist=
ry for EAT claims (I suppose that implies a nested object in the JWT/CWT) ra=
ther than to overload the CWT registry. Architecturally it just doesn=E2=80=99t ji=
ve to have all these claims as baseline CWT claims, and process-wise, it=E2=80=99s=
 much more convenient for this group to control its own namespace.

=20

Sorry if this has been raised before.

=20

Thanks,

                Yaron

IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid=
ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, pl=
ease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any o=
ther person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any=
 medium. Thank you.=20

_______________________________________________
RATS mailing list
RATS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats

=20


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s-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/20=
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--></style></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSe=
ction1><p class=3DMsoNormal>Hi Laurence,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p=
>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Yes, such profiles would certainly be he=
lpful for attestation. <o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Unfortunately they would not solve the fundamental prob=
lem that a developer who wishes to use JWT for anything, not necessarily att=
estation, is faced with a registry that he or she has no chance of figuring =
out.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Ya=
ron<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div style=3D'border=
:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMso=
Normal><b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>From: </span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Laurence Lundblade &lt;lgl@island-resor=
t.com&gt;<br><b>Date: </b>Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 18:29<br><b>To: </b=
>Yaron Sheffer &lt;yaronf.ietf@gmail.com&gt;<br><b>Cc: </b>Hannes Tschofenig=
 &lt;Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com&gt;, &quot;rats@ietf.org&quot; &lt;rats@ietf.=
org&gt;<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [Rats] EAT IANA registry<o:p></o:p></span></p=
></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal=
>One of our thoughts is that EAT profiles will help with this. For example, =
a special profile for toasters might list 5 claims that must be included in =
every attestation and 10 claims that are optional and maybe even prohibit al=
l others.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><=
div><p class=3DMsoNormal>LL<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&=
nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><blockquote st=
yle=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On Nov 22=
, 2019, at 6:57 AM, Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com"=
>yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal=
><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Hi Hannes,<span style=3D'fo=
nt-size:12.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<s=
pan style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNo=
rmal>Looking at the JWT claim IANA registry [1], it is already a terrible me=
ss of several different standards, obviously with many more coming. I guess =
what=E2=80=99s done is done, and I=E2=80=99ll take back my objection.<span style=3D'font-s=
ize:12.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal=
>Thanks,<span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Yaron<span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p></o:p=
></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nb=
sp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>[1]<span class=3Dapple-=
converted-space>&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"https://www.iana.org/assignments/jwt/j=
wt.xhtml#claims"><span style=3D'color:#954F72'>https://www.iana.org/assignment=
s/jwt/jwt.xhtml#claims</span></a><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p></o:p><=
/span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'=
><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4D=
F 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'f=
ont-size:12.0pt'>From:<span class=3Dapple-converted-space>&nbsp;</span></span>=
</b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>Hannes Tschofenig &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Han=
nes.Tschofenig@arm.com"><span style=3D'color:#954F72'>Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.co=
m</span></a>&gt;<br><b>Date:<span class=3Dapple-converted-space>&nbsp;</span><=
/b>Friday, November 22, 2019 at 14:17<br><b>To:<span class=3Dapple-converted-s=
pace>&nbsp;</span></b>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.co=
m"><span style=3D'color:#954F72'>yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</span></a>&gt;, &quot;<=
a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org"><span style=3D'color:#954F72'>rats@ietf.org</spa=
n></a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org"><span style=3D'color:#954F72'>=
rats@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<br><b>Subject:<span class=3Dapple-converted-space=
>&nbsp;</span></b>RE: EAT IANA registry<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><di=
v><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p></o:p></=
span></p></div></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Yaron,<span class=3Dapple-convert=
ed-space>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p><=
/div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Could you explain why you think that this is a =
good idea?<span class=3Dapple-converted-space>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'font-s=
ize:12.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Ciao<span st=
yle=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>H=
annes<span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0=
in 0in 0in'><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b><span class=3Dapple-converted-=
space>&nbsp;</span>RATS &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org"><span sty=
le=3D'color:#954F72'>rats-bounces@ietf.org</span></a>&gt;<span class=3Dapple-con=
verted-space>&nbsp;</span><b>On Behalf Of<span class=3Dapple-converted-space>&=
nbsp;</span></b>Yaron Sheffer<br><b>Sent:</b><span class=3Dapple-converted-spa=
ce>&nbsp;</span>Friday, November 22, 2019 2:05 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class=3Da=
pple-converted-space>&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org"><span style=
=3D'color:#954F72'>rats@ietf.org</span></a><br><b>Subject:</b><span class=3Dappl=
e-converted-space>&nbsp;</span>[Rats] EAT IANA registry<span style=3D'font-siz=
e:12.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><s=
pan style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal>Unrelated to my earlier mail, I would recommend to create a separ=
ate registry for EAT claims (I suppose that implies a nested object in the J=
WT/CWT) rather than to overload the CWT registry. Architecturally it just do=
esn=E2=80=99t jive to have all these claims as baseline CWT claims, and process-wi=
se, it=E2=80=99s much more convenient for this group to control its own namespace.=
<span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMso=
Normal>&nbsp;<span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div=
><p class=3DMsoNormal>Sorry if this has been raised before.<span style=3D'font-s=
ize:12.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal=
>Thanks,<span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Yaron<span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p></o:p=
></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of =
this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. =
If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately =
and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose=
, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.<span class=3Dappl=
e-converted-space>&nbsp;</span><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:He=
lvetica'>_______________________________________________<br>RATS mailing lis=
t<br></span><a href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org"><span style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font=
-family:Helvetica;color:#954F72'>RATS@ietf.org</span></a><span style=3D'font-s=
ize:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica'><br></span><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/ma=
ilman/listinfo/rats"><span style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;colo=
r:#954F72'>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats</span></a><o:p></o:p><=
/p></div></blockquote></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></=
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Ned points out that I fat-fingered the first session on Friday, making it
only 30 minutes long.  I intend it to be an hour, but I won't edit as that
will invalidate the poll.

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-




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From nobody Sun Nov 24 05:44:53 2019
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To: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
CC: "Waltermire, David A. (Fed)" <david.waltermire@nist.gov>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Ira McDonald <blueroofmusic@gmail.com>, sacm <sacm@ietf.org>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, "suit@ietf.org" <suit@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [sacm]  CoSWID and EAT and CWT
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Hi Kathleen,

I'll provide comments and replies in-line. I hope that is okay.

On 22.11.19 19:26, Kathleen Moriarty wrote:
> Hi Henk,
> 
> I am not entirely following you, so I am not stating agreement yet.

Of course, I was typing very hastily before take-off.

> 
> On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 12:06 PM Henk Birkholz 
> <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de 
> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
> 
>     Hi Kathleen,
>     hi SACM, SUIT & RATS list,
> 
>     the corresponding *SWID authors discussed this issue and are proposing:
> 
>      > https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/issues/46
> 
>     This includes an extended scope to include the option of SUIT Manifest
>     related Claim values, next to various *SWID Claim values. We permutated
>     "signed" & "not-signed" as well as "payload tags" and "evidence tags"
>     for *SWID tags in this proposal. The authors are convinced that the
>     "not-signed" variants are of essence (as CWT does not allow "not-signed
>     CBOR items", but also do not imply any implications to the SUIT
>     Manifest
>     Claim definition (although there are strong similarities and there
>     could
>     be some).
> 
> 
> Can you write the above again?  Are you saying this in terms of a CWT?  
> Wouldn't the claims and the text value in a CWT be represented as-is, 
> then signed, so you'd get what you are saying is needed?

Let me attempt to rephrase :)

1.) In order to be semantic interoperable with ISO SWID, CoSWID most 
enable signed and un-signed software identification tags. I.e. signing 
is optional for evidence tags and recommended for payload tags according 
to ISO/IEC 19770-2:2015 and it is recommended for evidence tags and 
mandatory for payload tags according to NISTIR 8060:2016.
These statements stand by themselves and have nothing to do with CWT.

2.) The CoSWID authors/editors would like to see CoSWID as claim values 
in EAT, and therefore as an extension as CWT Claims (as this is how EAT 
works with respect to new Claims for EAT).
There are two types of software identification tags defined by ISO/SWID 
& CoSWID, respectively, that we think are important to RATS in this 
first context: the payload resource-collection and the evidence 
resource-collection.
* Payload is the content for (RATS) Appraisal Policy messages (formerly 
named Reference Values). They are the "intended software installation 
and configuration state for a well-defined scope of software components" 
signed by the creator of the software, potentially co-signed by 
certification authorities (e.g. CC-certified), or 
countersigned/co-signed by local administration authorities.
* Evidence is the content for (RATS) Attestation Evidence. They are 
created on the target of evaluation (the Attester) and represent "a 
measurement of actually installed software components and their 
configuration". They can be signed by an Attesting Environment on the 
Attester, or they can be unsigned (if there is no RTR, such as a TEE 
with Android Keystore API or a {p|f|v}TPM'esque interface).

3.) Therefore, if a *SWID is a value in a Claim of an EAT, this value 
can be at least one of these eight options:

Appraisal Policy Content:
* signed payload tag CoSWID
* signed payload tag ISO/SWID
* unsigned payload tag CoSWID
* unsigned payload tag ISO/SWID

Attestation Evidence Content:
* signed evidence tag CoSWID
* signed evidence tag ISO/SWID
* unsigned evidence tag CoSWID
* unsigned evidence tag ISO/SWID

It is quite beneficial to register a CWT Claim for each one of these 
eight flavors for the use in EAT: to simplify CWT parsing and retain the 
well defined semantics of each of these *SWID tag flavors.

4.) Additionally, to register a CWT Claim for the SUIT Manifest is quite 
useful, in order to create attestation evidence about firmware and its 
metadata (that is not well-defined in CoSWID, but - please note - can 
also be represented in CoSWID, it just not that elegant).

Hence the proposal in the EAT issue #46. We were preparing at least two 
CoSWID related documents for a while now (waiting for CoSWID to pass 
IESG). The other CoSWID realted I-D might address Yaron's issue, but the 
write-up is not complete yet (the last 20% take the longest...).

> 
> 
>     The current *SWID contributors prefer this contribution as a parallel
>     effort to the EAT I-D, SUIT Manifest I-D, the CoSWID I-D and existing
>     ISO XML SWID standard. This proposal includes the primitive to not
>     delay
>     corresponding IETG I-D in their respective WGs.
> 
> 
> Are you saying you don't want to add text stating the use of a CWT is a 
> possible alternative, as that is what was requested.  I offered to write 
> a separate document to put the CoSWID in a CWT in SACM as I think that's 
> the right home, referencing EAT work.

I am trying to say here that we want to write a new I-D. I am not 
entirely sure anymore, where you want to add text about that. I am not 
sure how useful it would be refer to a new I-D in the CoSWID document, 
which is now closing in on it's end of the WGLC. I think it might be 
more useful and expedite the process to do it in a way like other "Claim 
drafts" do it, such as:

> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-mandyam-rats-qwestoken/

and

> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-tschofenig-rats-psa-token/

This seems to be the common pattern. Is there a reason to diverge from that?

> 
> 
>     Having said that, we would like to get feedback for the proposal
>     references above.
> 
>     If there is no dissent or push-back on either the SUIT, SACM, and RATS
>     lists, our proposed way forward is a unified creation of EAT Claim Sets
>     in the RATS WG that enables the use of various *SWID variants & the
>     SUIT
>     Manifest as payloads for RATS via the RATS EAT I-D.
> 
> 
> I think this should be in SACM.  And I've offered to help.  I do think 
> that a little text saying it's possible should be in the CoSWID draft 
> and will provide that soon as not to delay progress of the CoSWID document.

Well, we can do this new I-D in SACM, but I am not sure why SACM is the 
more suitable place for that. Both the qwes-token and the psa-token 
define Claims that can be used in EAT are at least related to RATS (I 
think Hannes mentioned he wanted to be individual stream in the end, but 
I might be mistake). In any case, I am not against doing this in SACM, 
we did a lot of cross-wg and cross-area I-D in cooperation with SACM 
already and even got the "cross-area" Hackathon award for that - so 
while slightly in favor of RATS, I am not against SACM, if there is a 
good reason for that. We plan to relate the the 2nd upcoming CoSWID 
related I-D with RATS, though.

I am most certainly not against "a little text saying it's possible" in 
the CoSWID draft. I am only stepping very carefully when putting in a 
reference to a future document, which there is no guarantee for that it 
will actually work out or that it will be the thing that was promised in 
that text before.
In this specific case, I am also not sure what the problem is we are 
trying to solve by adding new content at this stage. Having said that, I 
am not against it, if we achieve "not do to delay progress of the CoSWID 
document" as you highlighted :)

> 
> Best regards,
> Kathleen

Viele Grüße from Manchester,

Henk

> 
> 
>     In summary, we would like to create this interop I-D in concert and
>     welcome every joint effort in this domain.
> 
>     Viele Grüße,
> 
>     Henk
> 
>     On 21.11.19 12:37, Kathleen Moriarty wrote:
>      >
>      >
>      > Sent from my mobile device
>      >
>      >> On Nov 20, 2019, at 11:29 PM, Waltermire, David A. (Fed)
>      >> <david.waltermire@nist.gov <mailto:david.waltermire@nist.gov>>
>     wrote:
>      >>
>      >> ﻿
>      >> It sounds like having a CWT claim that contains an entire CoSWID
>     is a
>      >> path forward. It may also make sense to do something similar for
>     ISO
>      >> SWID tags.
>      >>
>      >> Am I right in thinking that this CWT work can be done in RATS,
>      >> referencing CoSWID once it is published as a normative
>     reference? This
>      >> would allow CoSWID to go forward to the IESG, while the CoSWID CWT
>      >> claim is worked in parallel in RATS.
>      >>
>      >> Kathleen, if this is true, does this way forward address your
>      >> CWT-related comments?
>      >
>      > Hi Dave,
>      >
>      > I think the signature may have to be on the CWT as opposed to on the
>      > claim that is the CoSWID or SWID.  We can define it fully in another
>      > draft, but should state it here so that option is understood. 
>     It’s a
>      > simple write up, I think.
>      >
>      > Thank you,
>      > Kathleen
>      >>
>      >> Regards,
>      >> Dave
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>      >> *From:* sacm <sacm-bounces@ietf.org
>     <mailto:sacm-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Kathleen Moriarty
>      >> <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com
>     <mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>>
>      >> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 20, 2019 9:10 PM
>      >> *To:* Ira McDonald <blueroofmusic@gmail.com
>     <mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com>>
>      >> *Cc:* rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org> <rats@ietf.org
>     <mailto:rats@ietf.org>>; sacm <sacm@ietf.org
>     <mailto:sacm@ietf.org>>; Laurence
>      >> Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>>
>      >> *Subject:* Re: [sacm] [Rats] CoSWID and EAT and CWT
>      >> Great, thanks Laurence.  If that's easier I think having the
>     CoSWID in
>      >> one claim should be ok and would have the same result as the
>      >> suggestion I made.  Changing the CoSWID format is a big enough
>     process
>      >> that it shouldn't happen very often.
>      >>
>      >> Best regards,
>      >> Kathleen
>      >>
>      >> On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 8:00 PM Ira McDonald
>     <blueroofmusic@gmail.com <mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com>
>      >> <mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com
>     <mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com>>> wrote:
>      >>
>      >>     Hi Laurence,
>      >>
>      >>     That seems like a good suggestion for a simple way to integrate
>      >>     CoSWID content
>      >>     into EAT.
>      >>
>      >>     Cheers,
>      >>     - Ira
>      >>
>      >>     Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)
>      >>     Co-Chair - TCG Trusted Mobility Solutions WG
>      >>     Co-Chair - TCG Metadata Access Protocol SG
>      >>     Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG
>      >>     Secretary - IEEE-ISTO Printer Working Group
>      >>     Co-Chair - IEEE-ISTO PWG Internet Printing Protocol WG
>      >>     IETF Designated Expert - IPP & Printer MIB
>      >>     Blue Roof Music / High North Inc
>      >> http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic
>      >>   
>       <https://gcc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsites.google.com%2Fsite%2Fblueroofmusic&data=02%7C01%7Cdavid.waltermire%40nist.gov%7C92a2dcbadd8d47661b9608d76e282847%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a93e054655c61dec%7C1%7C1%7C637098991070417006&sdata=GDIVVIesvqqXnuU6TtLbK7GJ4eI1b1EcYSPoXsHlj04%3D&reserved=0>
>      >> http://sites.google.com/site/highnorthinc
>      >>   
>       <https://gcc01.safelinks.protection..outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsites.google.com%2Fsite%2Fhighnorthinc&data=02%7C01%7Cdavid.waltermire%40nist.gov%7C92a2dcbadd8d47661b9608d76e282847%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a93e054655c61dec%7C1%7C1%7C637098991070417006&sdata=7z%2BoMcYSSFD8hAYHmELqNoyGAxTBE9gknbV6kAzKWX8%3D&reserved=0 <http://outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsites.google.com%2Fsite%2Fhighnorthinc&data=02%7C01%7Cdavid.waltermire%40nist.gov%7C92a2dcbadd8d47661b9608d76e282847%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a93e054655c61dec%7C1%7C1%7C637098991070417006&sdata=7z%2BoMcYSSFD8hAYHmELqNoyGAxTBE9gknbV6kAzKWX8%3D&reserved=0>>
>      >>     mailto: blueroofmusic@gmail.com
>     <mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com> <mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com
>     <mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com>>
>      >>     PO Box 221  Grand Marais, MI 49839  906-494-2434
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>     On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 7:35 PM Laurence Lundblade
>      >>     <lgl@island-resort.com <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>
>     <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>>> wrote:
>      >>
>      >>         Hi,
>      >>
>      >>         I’m not on the SACM list, but did look at the archive.
>      >>         Hopefully I’m not out of sync.
>      >>
>      >>         My thought is to register one claim for CWT that is an
>     entire
>      >>         CoSWID (in CDDL the concise-swid-tag).
>      >>
>      >>         That way CoSWID can grow and develop on its own without lots
>      >>         of adds and subtracts to the CWT registry. It has its
>     own IANA
>      >>         registry with its own experts and such. Seems like the
>      >>         coupling / factoring is about right.
>      >>
>      >>         This would also be the way I’d like to have it in EAT
>      >>         attestation. We’ve done a mini version of this with the
>      >>         location claim
>      >>       
>       <https://gcc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ietf-rats-eat-01%23section-3.8&data=02%7C01%7Cdavid.waltermire%40nist.gov%7C92a2dcbadd8d47661b9608d76e282847%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a93e054655c61dec%7C1%7C1%7C637098991070426961&sdata=%2Fhi008Am2dlY6tBQHdPVVGZzEcWNmqd5MvgPOM14jE8%3D&reserved=0>.
>      >>
>      >>         Then if you just want to sign a CoSWID CWT style, this works
>      >>         pretty well too. It has a slight overhead compared to having
>      >>         all the CoSWID data items as direct CWT claims in that
>     it will
>      >>         have an additional map layer, but that is only about
>     three bytes.
>      >>
>      >>         LL
>      >>
>      >>         _______________________________________________
>      >>         RATS mailing list
>      >> RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org> <mailto:RATS@ietf.org
>     <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>>
>      >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>      >>       
>       <https://gcc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Frats&data=02%7C01%7Cdavid.waltermire%40nist.gov%7C92a2dcbadd8d47661b9608d76e282847%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a93e054655c61dec%7C1%7C1%7C637098991070426961&sdata=fdpXMIU%2BNkMSn3RJ4X5AsSuMU7pbokHXltsX8ZYP9E0%3D&reserved=0>
>      >>
>      >>     _______________________________________________
>      >>     sacm mailing list
>      >> sacm@ietf.org <mailto:sacm@ietf.org> <mailto:sacm@ietf.org
>     <mailto:sacm@ietf.org>>
>      >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sacm
>      >>   
>       <https://gcc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fsacm&data=02%7C01%7Cdavid.waltermire%40nist.gov%7C92a2dcbadd8d47661b9608d76e282847%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a93e054655c61dec%7C1%7C1%7C637098991070436893&sdata=okSPAqVHj9KBxPtViQdnffsfhlMF4t0%2F87PXXY78fA0%3D&reserved=0>
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>
>      >> --
>      >>
>      >> Best regards,
>      >> Kathleen
>      >
>      > _______________________________________________
>      > sacm mailing list
>      > sacm@ietf.org <mailto:sacm@ietf.org>
>      > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sacm
>      >
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Best regards,
> Kathleen


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To: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
References: <B099349B-711D-4A11-9E58-0886307FB7AF@island-resort.com> <CAHbuEH6qtVbzRXUALKBrr3butc8qT8Y81X-nQ6+PjC1n08CkvA@mail.gmail.com> <5DB30E08-9AB2-452A-B8D6-55BFD0AE5264@island-resort.com> <CAHbuEH4R4GZQCq9E1Nza8uPC=jxiM-FkV4tMrv9B==GsjvCLtw@mail.gmail.com> <34EB67FD-E76A-4132-87C4-C89EA70C9365@intel.com> <DC9F1051-E33A-477F-A855-2FBA33F8E8DF@island-resort.com> <cbb5f662-b073-5b5b-e504-56ea66b72744@sit.fraunhofer.de> <5A3105EA-8E54-4BB9-B266-96B6645811A1@island-resort.com> <c4967ed2-e484-d8c9-406b-8e1bb1b3b88d@sit.fraunhofer.de> <FF6F2CEE-1049-4B6C-8E12-9E21FE92D2F2@island-resort.com> <3285c3da-0748-5607-90ed-ac024ac826d0@sit.fraunhofer.de> <0384FAEE-6C5B-4A99-BBA0-F080DD27AA9B@island-resort.com> <def7a722-e357-a12a-1467-8ff8c442337e@sit.fraunhofer.de> <A9E1ED3A-80D1-4585-9029-A49CA5AE3AB6@island-resort.com> <52AC3EB5-1BD0-4A41-8EAD-5A779E125BF8@intel.com>
From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2019 16:31:06 +0100
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Two types of secure attestation
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Hi all,

in a nutshell, one of the things I tried to express is that the 
following quite is simply not correct wrt to what is called here the 
"TPM-style" (I would really like to not use the words "TPM-style" and 
not to mixing authenticated & secure boot. Authenticated Boot is fine):
  > Primarily the difference between TPM-style that doesn’t rely on 
secure boot and non-TPM-style that does rely on secure boot.

It is never possible to create TPM structures that are signed 
Attestation Evidence, if a device that is explicitly intended to conduct 
"secure boot" did actually not do so successfully. That is one of the 
key-features of TPM/TSS remote attestation procedures.

On the other hand, what leaves me puzzled is the following. If these 
three quotes are all correct...

> You cannot create an EAT unless the authenticated boot was successful. The key material with which to sign the EAT is inaccessible if authenticated boot fails (or else the device just won’t boot at all).

draft-ietf-rats-eat-01:

> All claims are optional

and draft-ietf-rats-eat-01 again:

> 3.7.  Secure Boot and Debug Enable State Claims (boot_state)
> 
>    This claim is an array of five Boolean values indicating the boot and
>    debug state of the entity.

... one is allowed either to omit that Claim in an EAT or set some 
values of the Claim members to false. Therefore indicating that the boot 
state is, e.g. "secure_boot_enabled=> false", and still be able to 
create the EAT. Is that correct? If not, why include this member of the 
boot_state Claim at all? It always made me think until now that it 
allows for a device to not conduct "secure boot" and still be able to 
create an EAT.

Besides that, what I think we are actually talking about is implicit and 
explicit attestation.

The "non-TPM-style" RATS Laurence is talking about seem to be implicit 
remote attestation and that if of course of "equal stature" to the 
implicit remote attestation that uses a TPM. I am not arguing with that 
- I am agreeing with that! :)

Viele Grüße,

Henk

On 23.11.19 20:20, Smith, Ned wrote:
> @laurence - By “this” you mean the difference between implicit and 
> explicit attestation?
> 
> *From: *RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Laurence Lundblade 
> <lgl@island-resort.com>
> *Date: *Saturday, November 23, 2019 at 8:44 AM
> *To: *Henk Berkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> *Cc: *"rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Kathleen Moriarty 
> <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
> *Subject: *Re: [Rats] Two types of secure attestation
> 
>     On Nov 21, 2019, at 6:26 PM, Henk Birkholz
>     <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de
>     <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
> 
>     There are no semantic difference between the "simple non-TPM EAT"
>     scenario and the TPM-based implicit remote attestation scenario.
>     They are if fact the "same types of secure attestation”.
> 
> I don’t have any need to drive taxonomic distinction when unnecessary, 
> but note that the YANG module has to have explicit different facilities 
> to be able to handle both.
> 
> The verifier implementations for these two types are also very 
> different. in the "non-TPM EAT” scenario no known-good-values for SW 
> hashes are need to be supplied to the verifier.
> 
> I don’t think these are the only differences that we’ll encounter in 
> real implementations.
> 
> This should probably all be described the architecture document. Seems 
> as significant as the passport vs background check distinction.
> 
> LL
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
> 


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CC: "suit@ietf.org" <suit@ietf.org>, sacm <sacm@ietf.org>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, Ira McDonald <blueroofmusic@gmail.com>, "Waltermire, David A. (Fed)" <david.waltermire@nist.gov>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [sacm] CoSWID and EAT and CWT
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Hi Ned,

"Evidence" and "Payload" are two of the four pre-defined (and 
extensible) types of resource-collection defined by ISO/IEC 
19770-2:2015, CoSWID and NISTIR 8060:2016, respectively.

They are defined here:

> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-sacm-coswid-13#section-2.3

Fortunately, Evidence is semantically very well aligned with the meaning 
of Evidence in the context of RATS, it is effectively created by an 
Attesting Environment of an Attester as a measurement:

>    o  evidence-entry (index 3): This item can be used to record the
>       results of a software discovery process used to identify untagged
>       software on an endpoint or to represent indicators for why
>       software is believed to be installed on the endpoint.  In either
>       case, a CoSWID tag can be created by the tool performing an
>       analysis of the software components installed on the endpoint.
>       Described in Section 2.9.4.

In general, Payload lists the files that may be installed with a 
software product, and could be a superset of those files. Semantically, 
they are the equivalent to Appraisal Policies (formerly know as 
Reference Values). This differs from the use of Evidence, which is used 
to store results from a scan that indicate why the product is believed 
to be installed:

>    o  payload (index 6): This item represents a collection of software
>       artifacts (described by child items) that compose the target
>       software.  For example, these artifacts could be the files
>       included with an installer for a corpus tag or installed on an
>       endpoint when the software component is installed for a primary or
>       patch tag.  The artifacts listed in a payload may be a superset of
>       the software artifacts that are actually installed.  Based on user
>       selections at install time, an installation might not include
>       every artifact that could be created or executed on the endpoint
>       when the software component is installed or run.  Described in
>       Section 2.9.3.

Viele Grüße,

Henk

On 22.11.19 20:39, Smith, Ned wrote:
> Regarding issue 46 (link below), the proposed (9) claims distinguish 
> between Evidence, “Payload” and SUIT Manifest variations. Evidence is 
> defined by RATS architecture, SUIT Manifest by SUIT WG, but not sure 
> where “Payload” is defined and how it differs from Evidence. Possibly 8 
> claims can be collapsed into 4?
> 
> *From: *RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Kathleen Moriarty 
> <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
> *Date: *Friday, November 22, 2019 at 10:27 AM
> *To: *Henk Berkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> *Cc: *"suit@ietf.org" <suit@ietf.org>, sacm <sacm@ietf.org>, 
> "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Laurence Lundblade 
> <lgl@island-resort.com>, Ira McDonald <blueroofmusic@gmail.com>, 
> "david.waltermire@nist.gov" <david.waltermire@nist.gov>
> *Subject: *Re: [Rats] [sacm] CoSWID and EAT and CWT
> 
> Hi Henk,
> 
> I am not entirely following you, so I am not stating agreement yet.
> 
> On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 12:06 PM Henk Birkholz 
> <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de 
> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
> 
>     Hi Kathleen,
>     hi SACM, SUIT & RATS list,
> 
>     the corresponding *SWID authors discussed this issue and are proposing:
> 
>      > https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/issues/46
> 
>     This includes an extended scope to include the option of SUIT Manifest
>     related Claim values, next to various *SWID Claim values. We permutated
>     "signed" & "not-signed" as well as "payload tags" and "evidence tags"
>     for *SWID tags in this proposal. The authors are convinced that the
>     "not-signed" variants are of essence (as CWT does not allow "not-signed
>     CBOR items", but also do not imply any implications to the SUIT
>     Manifest
>     Claim definition (although there are strong similarities and there
>     could
>     be some).
> 
> Can you write the above again?  Are you saying this in terms of a CWT?  
> Wouldn't the claims and the text value in a CWT be represented as-is, 
> then signed, so you'd get what you are saying is needed?
> 
> 
>     The current *SWID contributors prefer this contribution as a parallel
>     effort to the EAT I-D, SUIT Manifest I-D, the CoSWID I-D and existing
>     ISO XML SWID standard. This proposal includes the primitive to not
>     delay
>     corresponding IETG I-D in their respective WGs.
> 
> Are you saying you don't want to add text stating the use of a CWT is a 
> possible alternative, as that is what was requested.  I offered to write 
> a separate document to put the CoSWID in a CWT in SACM as I think that's 
> the right home, referencing EAT work.
> 
> 
>     Having said that, we would like to get feedback for the proposal
>     references above.
> 
>     If there is no dissent or push-back on either the SUIT, SACM, and RATS
>     lists, our proposed way forward is a unified creation of EAT Claim Sets
>     in the RATS WG that enables the use of various *SWID variants & the
>     SUIT
>     Manifest as payloads for RATS via the RATS EAT I-D.
> 
> I think this should be in SACM.  And I've offered to help.  I do think 
> that a little text saying it's possible should be in the CoSWID draft 
> and will provide that soon as not to delay progress of the CoSWID document.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Kathleen
> 
> 
>     In summary, we would like to create this interop I-D in concert and
>     welcome every joint effort in this domain.
> 
>     Viele Grüße,
> 
>     Henk
> 
>     On 21.11.19 12:37, Kathleen Moriarty wrote:
>      >
>      >
>      > Sent from my mobile device
>      >
>      >> On Nov 20, 2019, at 11:29 PM, Waltermire, David A. (Fed)
>      >> <david.waltermire@nist.gov <mailto:david.waltermire@nist.gov>>
>     wrote:
>      >>
>      >>
>      >> It sounds like having a CWT claim that contains an entire CoSWID
>     is a
>      >> path forward. It may also make sense to do something similar for
>     ISO
>      >> SWID tags.
>      >>
>      >> Am I right in thinking that this CWT work can be done in RATS,
>      >> referencing CoSWID once it is published as a normative
>     reference? This
>      >> would allow CoSWID to go forward to the IESG, while the CoSWID CWT
>      >> claim is worked in parallel in RATS.
>      >>
>      >> Kathleen, if this is true, does this way forward address your
>      >> CWT-related comments?
>      >
>      > Hi Dave,
>      >
>      > I think the signature may have to be on the CWT as opposed to on the
>      > claim that is the CoSWID or SWID.  We can define it fully in another
>      > draft, but should state it here so that option is understood. 
>     It’s a
>      > simple write up, I think.
>      >
>      > Thank you,
>      > Kathleen
>      >>
>      >> Regards,
>      >> Dave
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>
>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>      >> *From:* sacm <sacm-bounces@ietf.org
>     <mailto:sacm-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Kathleen Moriarty
>      >> <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com
>     <mailto:kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>>
>      >> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 20, 2019 9:10 PM
>      >> *To:* Ira McDonald <blueroofmusic@gmail.com
>     <mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com>>
>      >> *Cc:* rats@ietf..org <mailto:rats@ietf.org> <rats@ietf.org
>     <mailto:rats@ietf.org>>; sacm <sacm@ietf.org
>     <mailto:sacm@ietf.org>>; Laurence
>      >> Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>>
>      >> *Subject:* Re: [sacm] [Rats] CoSWID and EAT and CWT
>      >> Great, thanks Laurence.  If that's easier I think having the
>     CoSWID in
>      >> one claim should be ok and would have the same result as the
>      >> suggestion I made.  Changing the CoSWID format is a big enough
>     process
>      >> that it shouldn't happen very often.
>      >>
>      >> Best regards,
>      >> Kathleen
>      >>
>      >> On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 8:00 PM Ira McDonald
>     <blueroofmusic@gmail.com <mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com>
>      >> <mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com
>     <mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com>>> wrote:
>      >>
>      >>     Hi Laurence,
>      >>
>      >>     That seems like a good suggestion for a simple way to integrate
>      >>     CoSWID content
>      >>     into EAT.
>      >>
>      >>     Cheers,
>      >>     - Ira
>      >>
>      >>     Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)
>      >>     Co-Chair - TCG Trusted Mobility Solutions WG
>      >>     Co-Chair - TCG Metadata Access Protocol SG
>      >>     Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG
>      >>     Secretary - IEEE-ISTO Printer Working Group
>      >>     Co-Chair - IEEE-ISTO PWG Internet Printing Protocol WG
>      >>     IETF Designated Expert - IPP & Printer MIB
>      >>     Blue Roof Music / High North Inc
>      >> http://sites.google.com/site/blueroofmusic
>      >>   
>       <https://gcc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsites.google.com%2Fsite%2Fblueroofmusic&data=02%7C01%7Cdavid.waltermire%40nist.gov%7C92a2dcbadd8d47661b9608d76e282847%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a93e054655c61dec%7C1%7C1%7C637098991070417006&sdata=GDIVVIesvqqXnuU6TtLbK7GJ4eI1b1EcYSPoXsHlj04%3D&reserved=0>
>      >> http://sites.google.com/site/highnorthinc
>      >>   
>       <https://gcc01.safelinks.protection..outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsites.google.com%2Fsite%2Fhighnorthinc&data=02%7C01%7Cdavid.waltermire%40nist.gov%7C92a2dcbadd8d47661b9608d76e282847%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a93e054655c61dec%7C1%7C1%7C637098991070417006&sdata=7z%2BoMcYSSFD8hAYHmELqNoyGAxTBE9gknbV6kAzKWX8%3D&reserved=0 <http://outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fsites.google.com%2Fsite%2Fhighnorthinc&data=02%7C01%7Cdavid.waltermire%40nist.gov%7C92a2dcbadd8d47661b9608d76e282847%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a93e054655c61dec%7C1%7C1%7C637098991070417006&sdata=7z%2BoMcYSSFD8hAYHmELqNoyGAxTBE9gknbV6kAzKWX8%3D&reserved=0>>
>      >>     mailto: blueroofmusic@gmail.com
>     <mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com> <mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com
>     <mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com>>
>      >>     PO Box 221  Grand Marais, MI 49839  906-494-2434
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>     On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 7:35 PM Laurence Lundblade
>      >>     <lgl@island-resort.com <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>
>     <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>>> wrote:
>      >>
>      >>         Hi,
>      >>
>      >>         I’m not on the SACM list, but did look at the archive.
>      >>         Hopefully I’m not out of sync.
>      >>
>      >>         My thought is to register one claim for CWT that is an
>     entire
>      >>         CoSWID (in CDDL the concise-swid-tag).
>      >>
>      >>         That way CoSWID can grow and develop on its own without lots
>      >>         of adds and subtracts to the CWT registry. It has its
>     own IANA
>      >>         registry with its own experts and such. Seems like the
>      >>         coupling / factoring is about right.
>      >>
>      >>         This would also be the way I’d like to have it in EAT
>      >>         attestation. We’ve done a mini version of this with the
>      >>         location claim
>      >>       
>       <https://gcc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ftools.ietf.org%2Fhtml%2Fdraft-ietf-rats-eat-01%23section-3.8&data=02%7C01%7Cdavid.waltermire%40nist.gov%7C92a2dcbadd8d47661b9608d76e282847%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a93e054655c61dec%7C1%7C1%7C637098991070426961&sdata=%2Fhi008Am2dlY6tBQHdPVVGZzEcWNmqd5MvgPOM14jE8%3D&reserved=0>.
>      >>
>      >>         Then if you just want to sign a CoSWID CWT style, this works
>      >>         pretty well too. It has a slight overhead compared to having
>      >>         all the CoSWID data items as direct CWT claims in that
>     it will
>      >>         have an additional map layer, but that is only about
>     three bytes.
>      >>
>      >>         LL
>      >>
>      >>         _______________________________________________
>      >>         RATS mailing list
>      >> RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org> <mailto:RATS@ietf.org
>     <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>>
>      >> https://www.ietf..org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>     <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats>
>      >>       
>       <https://gcc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Frats&data=02%7C01%7Cdavid.waltermire%40nist.gov%7C92a2dcbadd8d47661b9608d76e282847%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a93e054655c61dec%7C1%7C1%7C637098991070426961&sdata=fdpXMIU%2BNkMSn3RJ4X5AsSuMU7pbokHXltsX8ZYP9E0%3D&reserved=0>
>      >>
>      >>     _______________________________________________
>      >>     sacm mailing list
>      >> sacm@ietf.org <mailto:sacm@ietf.org> <mailto:sacm@ietf.org
>     <mailto:sacm@ietf.org>>
>      >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sacm
>      >>   
>       <https://gcc01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Fsacm&data=02%7C01%7Cdavid.waltermire%40nist.gov%7C92a2dcbadd8d47661b9608d76e282847%7C2ab5d82fd8fa4797a93e054655c61dec%7C1%7C1%7C637098991070436893&sdata=okSPAqVHj9KBxPtViQdnffsfhlMF4t0%2F87PXXY78fA0%3D&reserved=0>
>      >>
>      >>
>      >>
>      >> --
>      >>
>      >> Best regards,
>      >> Kathleen
>      >
>      > _______________________________________________
>      > sacm mailing list
>      > sacm@ietf.org <mailto:sacm@ietf.org>
>      > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sacm
>      >
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Kathleen
> 


From nobody Sun Nov 24 09:26:47 2019
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Cc: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
To: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
References: <D2CF9D31-057E-4B47-A3D0-08BBBF997F47@gmail.com> <VI1PR08MB53605A2A2E61E6EAE2609FECFA490@VI1PR08MB5360.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com> <09C4F36B-C9CE-44DF-9DF8-F3365A7E3053@gmail.com> <53C13986-A523-4349-BDC3-F8ACC2BCFD29@island-resort.com> <31B9F6C7-74E2-4B9E-933C-77D7B51E21E7@gmail.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/gjjt2mFGJQ1ZbvRctLNjoIQ6EL0>
Subject: Re: [Rats] EAT IANA registry
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> On Nov 24, 2019, at 2:54 AM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com> =
wrote:
> =20
> Unfortunately they would not solve the fundamental problem that a =
developer who wishes to use JWT for anything, not necessarily =
attestation, is faced with a registry that he or she has no chance of =
figuring out.
> =20

But that=E2=80=99s not our problem here in RATS.

LL=

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Nov 24, 2019, at 2:54 AM, Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;" =
class=3D"">Unfortunately they would not solve the fundamental problem =
that a developer who wishes to use JWT for anything, not necessarily =
attestation, is faced with a registry that he or she has no chance of =
figuring out.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; =
caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: =
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; =
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; =
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: =
none;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">But that=E2=80=99s not our problem here in RATS.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">LL</div></body></html>=

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From nobody Sun Nov 24 12:01:31 2019
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To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
References: <B099349B-711D-4A11-9E58-0886307FB7AF@island-resort.com> <CAHbuEH6qtVbzRXUALKBrr3butc8qT8Y81X-nQ6+PjC1n08CkvA@mail.gmail.com> <5DB30E08-9AB2-452A-B8D6-55BFD0AE5264@island-resort.com> <CAHbuEH4R4GZQCq9E1Nza8uPC=jxiM-FkV4tMrv9B==GsjvCLtw@mail.gmail.com> <34EB67FD-E76A-4132-87C4-C89EA70C9365@intel.com> <DC9F1051-E33A-477F-A855-2FBA33F8E8DF@island-resort.com> <cbb5f662-b073-5b5b-e504-56ea66b72744@sit.fraunhofer.de> <5A3105EA-8E54-4BB9-B266-96B6645811A1@island-resort.com> <c4967ed2-e484-d8c9-406b-8e1bb1b3b88d@sit.fraunhofer.de> <FF6F2CEE-1049-4B6C-8E12-9E21FE92D2F2@island-resort.com> <3285c3da-0748-5607-90ed-ac024ac826d0@sit.fraunhofer.de> <0384FAEE-6C5B-4A99-BBA0-F080DD27AA9B@island-resort.com> <def7a722-e357-a12a-1467-8ff8c442337e@sit.fraunhofer.de> <A9E1ED3A-80D1-4585-9029-A49CA5AE3AB6@island-resort.com> <52AC3EB5-1BD0-4A41-8EAD-5A779E125BF8@intel.com> <06543a46-8218-fa9c-827f-8a0e2d364963@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Two types of secure attestation
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> On Nov 24, 2019, at 7:31 AM, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
>=20
> Hi all,
>=20
> in a nutshell, one of the things I tried to express is that the =
following quite is simply not correct wrt to what is called here the =
"TPM-style" (I would really like to not use the words "TPM-style" and =
not to mixing authenticated & secure boot. Authenticated Boot is fine):
> > Primarily the difference between TPM-style that doesn=E2=80=99t rely =
on secure boot and non-TPM-style that does rely on secure boot.

It=E2=80=99s hard to know what to call things. I=E2=80=99m learning the =
=E2=80=9CTCG language=E2=80=9D slowly and we=E2=80=99re also evolving =
(in the architecture document) a common language. I keep trying terms =
and definitions to see what sticks and what doesn=E2=80=99t. Pretty sure =
we agree on =E2=80=9Cattestation evidence=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Cverifier=E2=80=
=9D and =E2=80=9Cattestation result=E2=80=9D, but I don=E2=80=99t know =
what =E2=80=9Csecure boot=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Cauthenticated boot=E2=80=9D =
and =E2=80=9Ctrusted boot=E2=80=9D mean to you so I don=E2=80=99t know =
which term to use.

>=20
> It is never possible to create TPM structures that are signed =
Attestation Evidence, if a device that is explicitly intended to conduct =
"secure boot" did actually not do so successfully. That is one of the =
key-features of TPM/TSS remote attestation procedures.

It seems to me that TPM-style attestation where you measure each step in =
the boot sequence and report to a verifier was designed to work without =
secure boot. However I can see that it could also work with secure / =
trusted / authenticated boot.


>=20
> On the other hand, what leaves me puzzled is the following. If these =
three quotes are all correct...
>=20
>> You cannot create an EAT unless the authenticated boot was =
successful. The key material with which to sign the EAT is inaccessible =
if authenticated boot fails (or else the device just won=E2=80=99t boot =
at all).
>=20
> draft-ietf-rats-eat-01:
>=20
>> All claims are optional
>=20
> and draft-ietf-rats-eat-01 again:
>=20
>> 3.7.  Secure Boot and Debug Enable State Claims (boot_state)
>>   This claim is an array of five Boolean values indicating the boot =
and
>>   debug state of the entity.
>=20
> ... one is allowed either to omit that Claim in an EAT or set some =
values of the Claim members to false. Therefore indicating that the boot =
state is, e.g. "secure_boot_enabled=3D> false", and still be able to =
create the EAT. Is that correct? If not, why include this member of the =
boot_state Claim at all? It always made me think until now that it =
allows for a device to not conduct "secure boot" and still be able to =
create an EAT.

Yes, you are right that in some cases it would make no sense to have the =
secure boot claim. It is basically an implicit claim. Here=E2=80=99s =
some where it does make sense to have an explicit secure boot claim.

The main attester might boot securely, but submods might not.

It is possible to build pure HW that implements EAT attestation. It =
might be a part of a SoC. That attestation HW doesn=E2=80=99t use the =
main CPU to implement the attester, but can report on how the main CPU =
booted.


>=20
> Besides that, what I think we are actually talking about is implicit =
and explicit attestation.

Seems like you have to say which claims are implicit and which claims =
are explicit and in many attestations you need and get both.

For example, you called out a situation where the secure boot claim is =
implicit and questioned the need for the claim. I then called out a =
situation where the secure boot claim is explicit.=20

In one attestation the secure boot claim might be implicit and the GPS =
location is explicit.

LL



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-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Nov 24, 2019, at 7:31 AM, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">Hi =
all,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">in a nutshell, one of the things I =
tried to express is that the following quite is simply not correct wrt =
to what is called here the "TPM-style" (I would really like to not use =
the words "TPM-style" and not to mixing authenticated &amp; secure boot. =
Authenticated Boot is fine):<br class=3D""> &gt; Primarily the =
difference between TPM-style that doesn=E2=80=99t rely on secure boot =
and non-TPM-style that does rely on secure boot.<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>It=E2=80=
=99s hard to know what to call things. I=E2=80=99m learning the =E2=80=9CT=
CG language=E2=80=9D slowly and we=E2=80=99re also evolving (in the =
architecture document) a common language. I keep trying terms and =
definitions to see what sticks and what doesn=E2=80=99t. Pretty sure we =
agree on =E2=80=9Cattestation evidence=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Cverifier=E2=80=9D=
 and =E2=80=9Cattestation result=E2=80=9D, but I don=E2=80=99t know what =
=E2=80=9Csecure boot=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Cauthenticated boot=E2=80=9D and =
=E2=80=9Ctrusted boot=E2=80=9D mean to you so I don=E2=80=99t know which =
term to use.</div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D"">It is never possible to =
create TPM structures that are signed Attestation Evidence, if a device =
that is explicitly intended to conduct "secure boot" did actually not do =
so successfully. That is one of the key-features of TPM/TSS remote =
attestation procedures.<br class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>It seems to me that TPM-style attestation where =
you measure each step in the boot sequence and report to a verifier was =
designed to work without secure boot. However I can see that it could =
also work with secure / trusted / authenticated boot.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div><br class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><br class=3D"">On the other =
hand, what leaves me puzzled is the following. If these three quotes are =
all correct...<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D"">You cannot create an EAT unless the authenticated boot was =
successful. The key material with which to sign the EAT is inaccessible =
if authenticated boot fails (or else the device just won=E2=80=99t boot =
at all).<br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D"">draft-ietf-rats-eat-01:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">All claims are =
optional<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">and =
draft-ietf-rats-eat-01 again:<br class=3D""><br class=3D""><blockquote =
type=3D"cite" class=3D"">3.7. &nbsp;Secure Boot and Debug Enable State =
Claims (boot_state)<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;This claim is an array of =
five Boolean values indicating the boot and<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;debug state of the entity.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D"">... one is allowed either to omit that Claim in an EAT or set =
some values of the Claim members to false. Therefore indicating that the =
boot state is, e.g. "secure_boot_enabled=3D&gt; false", and still be =
able to create the EAT. Is that correct? If not, why include this member =
of the boot_state Claim at all? It always made me think until now that =
it allows for a device to not conduct "secure boot" and still be able to =
create an EAT.<br class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>Yes, you are right that in some cases it would =
make no sense to have the secure boot claim. It is basically an implicit =
claim. Here=E2=80=99s some where it does make sense to have an explicit =
secure boot claim.</div><div><br class=3D""></div></div><blockquote =
style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;" =
class=3D""><div><div>The main attester might boot securely, but submods =
might not.</div></div><div><div><br class=3D""></div></div><div><div>It =
is possible to build pure HW that implements EAT attestation. It might =
be a part of a SoC. That attestation HW doesn=E2=80=99t use the main CPU =
to implement the attester, but can report on how the main CPU =
booted.</div></div></blockquote><div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D""><div=
 class=3D""><br class=3D"">Besides that, what I think we are actually =
talking about is implicit and explicit attestation.<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Seems =
like you have to say which claims are implicit and which claims are =
explicit and in many attestations you need and get both.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>For example, you called out a situation where the =
secure boot claim is implicit and questioned the need for the claim. I =
then called out a situation where the secure boot claim is =
explicit.&nbsp;</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>In one attestation =
the secure boot claim might be implicit and the GPS location is =
explicit.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>LL</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=

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From nobody Sun Nov 24 14:22:58 2019
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To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
CC: "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
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From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Two types of secure attestation
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Hi Laurence,

I am a bit time constrained right now, but I think we mostly agree.

Thank you for you explanation about the boot_state Claim - it was really 
hard to wrap my mind around that. Is it okay to raise an issue that this 
concept might require more explanatory text in the EAT I-D?

I'll compose some text about the horrible yet remediateable confusion 
that is the "“secure boot”, “authenticated boot” and “trusted boot”, 
etc. pp scope. Maybe I'll do it with Monty, if he finds the time for 
that in the very near future.

I am very happy that we already agreed on Attestation Evidence, 
Attestation Result, (maybe) Appraisal Policy (formerly known as 
Reference Values), Endorsements & the roles Attester, Endorser (formerly 
known as Asserter), Verifier and Relying Party. There was significant 
progress at the last IETF meeting. Without Ned, Dave, Michael, Thomas & 
you this would not have been such a productive meeting.

Viele Grüße from Manchester,

Henk

On 24.11.19 21:01, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Nov 24, 2019, at 7:31 AM, Henk Birkholz 
>> <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de 
>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> in a nutshell, one of the things I tried to express is that the 
>> following quite is simply not correct wrt to what is called here the 
>> "TPM-style" (I would really like to not use the words "TPM-style" and 
>> not to mixing authenticated & secure boot. Authenticated Boot is fine):
>> > Primarily the difference between TPM-style that doesn’t rely on 
>> secure boot and non-TPM-style that does rely on secure boot.
> 
> It’s hard to know what to call things. I’m learning the “TCG language” 
> slowly and we’re also evolving (in the architecture document) a common 
> language. I keep trying terms and definitions to see what sticks and 
> what doesn’t. Pretty sure we agree on “attestation evidence”, “verifier” 
> and “attestation result”, but I don’t know what “secure boot”, 
> “authenticated boot” and “trusted boot” mean to you so I don’t know 
> which term to use.
> 
>>
>> It is never possible to create TPM structures that are signed 
>> Attestation Evidence, if a device that is explicitly intended to 
>> conduct "secure boot" did actually not do so successfully. That is one 
>> of the key-features of TPM/TSS remote attestation procedures.
> 
> It seems to me that TPM-style attestation where you measure each step in 
> the boot sequence and report to a verifier was designed to work without 
> secure boot. However I can see that it could also work with secure / 
> trusted / authenticated boot.
> 
> 
>>
>> On the other hand, what leaves me puzzled is the following. If these 
>> three quotes are all correct...
>>
>>> You cannot create an EAT unless the authenticated boot was 
>>> successful. The key material with which to sign the EAT is 
>>> inaccessible if authenticated boot fails (or else the device just 
>>> won’t boot at all).
>>
>> draft-ietf-rats-eat-01:
>>
>>> All claims are optional
>>
>> and draft-ietf-rats-eat-01 again:
>>
>>> 3.7.  Secure Boot and Debug Enable State Claims (boot_state)
>>>   This claim is an array of five Boolean values indicating the boot and
>>>   debug state of the entity.
>>
>> ... one is allowed either to omit that Claim in an EAT or set some 
>> values of the Claim members to false. Therefore indicating that the 
>> boot state is, e.g. "secure_boot_enabled=> false", and still be able 
>> to create the EAT. Is that correct? If not, why include this member of 
>> the boot_state Claim at all? It always made me think until now that it 
>> allows for a device to not conduct "secure boot" and still be able to 
>> create an EAT.
> 
> Yes, you are right that in some cases it would make no sense to have the 
> secure boot claim. It is basically an implicit claim. Here’s some where 
> it does make sense to have an explicit secure boot claim.
> 
>     The main attester might boot securely, but submods might not.
> 
>     It is possible to build pure HW that implements EAT attestation. It
>     might be a part of a SoC. That attestation HW doesn’t use the main
>     CPU to implement the attester, but can report on how the main CPU
>     booted.
> 
> 
> 
>>
>> Besides that, what I think we are actually talking about is implicit 
>> and explicit attestation.
> 
> Seems like you have to say which claims are implicit and which claims 
> are explicit and in many attestations you need and get both.
> 
> For example, you called out a situation where the secure boot claim is 
> implicit and questioned the need for the claim. I then called out a 
> situation where the secure boot claim is explicit.
> 
> In one attestation the secure boot claim might be implicit and the GPS 
> location is explicit.
> 
> LL
> 
> 


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Subject: Re: [Rats] Call for adoption (after draft rename) for Yang module draft
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From: "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" <ncamwing@cisco.com>
To: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Adoption call for draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module
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Subject: [Rats] Adoption call for draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module
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Thread-Topic: [Rats] CoSWID and EAT and CWT
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Subject: Re: [Rats] CoSWID and EAT and CWT
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Subject: Re: [Rats] CoSWID and EAT and CWT
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Looks good, Thomas

Here=E2=80=99s a signed EAT with the CoSWID as a claim with label 21.

In EATs with submods, there would likely be a CoSWID per submod (not =
shown below).

LL


18(
    [
        / protected parameters, bstr wrapped / << {
            / alg / 1: -7 / ECDSA 256 /
        } >>,

        / unprotected parameters / {
            / kid / 4: h'4173796d6d657472696345434453413
                          23536' / 'AsymmetricECDSA256' /
        },

        / COSE payload, the EAT, bstr wrapped / << {
            / nonce  /
            7:h'948f8860d13a463e8e',
   =20
            / UEID /
            8:h'0198f50a4ff6c05861c8860d13a638ea4fe2f',
   =20
            / boot_state (based on the -01 draft) /
            12:{true, true, true, true, false},
   =20
            / time stamp /
            6:1526542894,
   =20
            / The CoSWID /
            21: {
          =20
                / tag-id, globally unique identifier for the software =
component /
      0: "trustedfirmware.org/TF-M",

      / tag-version (here: 0, i.e. initial tag) /
      12: 0,

      / software component name /
      1: "TF-M",

      / version of the software component /
      13: "1.0.0-rc1+build.123",

      / (optional) version scheme (here: semver) /
      14: 16384,

      / entity, i.e. organizations responsible for producing or =
releasing
        the software component /
      2: {
          / entity name /
          31: "Linaro Limited",

         / entity role (here: software creator) /
         33: 2,

         / thumbprint of the entity public key (algo -- here; SHA-256 -- =
and value) /
         34: [
             1,
             =
h'5e73c2e6a96be594e56b218418a3ea03f1397934a2517d781855195fe3c5916b'
         ]
           },

           / payload /
           6: {
    =20
              / filesystem item (name and hash) /
              17: {
    =20
                  24: "tfm.bin",
                  7: [
                      1,
                      =
h'4a039f284d8ad68ca5b4d1592977c7c964c4abb5d08d87e4a0346b80cce5c74d'
                  ]
               }
           }
       }
   } >>,

   / signature / h'5427c1ff28d23fbad1f29c4c7c6a555e601d6fa29f
                   9179bc3d7438bacaca5acd08c8d4d4f96131680c42
                   9a01f85951ecee743a52b9b63632c57209120e1c9e
                   30'
]
)




> On Nov 26, 2019, at 3:51 PM, Thomas Fossati <Thomas.Fossati@arm.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> Hi Hannes,
>=20
> On 22/11/2019, 00:08, Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com> wrote:
>> Hi all
>>=20
>> Can someone send an example around how this would actually look like?
>=20
> For something such as TF-M, it should look like this:
>=20
> {
>  / tag-id, globally unique identifier for the software component /
>  0: "trustedfirmware.org/TF-M",
>=20
>  / tag-version (here: 0, i.e. initial tag) /
>  12: 0,
>=20
>  / software component name /
>  1: "TF-M",
>=20
>  / version of the software component /
>  13: "1.0.0-rc1+build.123",
>=20
>  / (optional) version scheme (here: semver) /
>  14: 16384,
>=20
>  / entity, i.e. organizations responsible for producing or releasing
>    the software component /
>  2: {
>    / entity name /
>    31: "Linaro Limited",
>=20
>    / entity role (here: software creator) /
>    33: 2,
>=20
>    / thumbprint of the entity public key (algo -- here; SHA-256 -- and =
value) /
>    34: [
>      1,
>      =
h'5e73c2e6a96be594e56b218418a3ea03f1397934a2517d781855195fe3c5916b'
>    ]
>  },
>=20
>  / payload /
>  6: {
>    / filesystem item (name and hash) /
>    17: {
>      24: "tfm.bin",
>      7: [
>        1,
>        =
h'4a039f284d8ad68ca5b4d1592977c7c964c4abb5d08d87e4a0346b80cce5c74d'
>      ]
>    }
>  }
> }
>=20
> At least this would be my interpretation of the CoSWID draft.  I'm a =
bit
> unsure whether a "filesystem" item is the most appropriate payload for =
a
> firmware thingy.  Surely Henk can suggest something better.
>=20
> Cheers!
>=20
>=20
> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are =
confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended =
recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the =
contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy =
the information in any medium. Thank you.
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>=20


--Apple-Mail=_B1B39B3D-7B29-415F-BAE8-DFD016492154
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">Looks good, Thomas</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Here=E2=80=99s a signed EAT with the =
CoSWID as a claim with label 21.</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">In EATs with submods, there would =
likely be a CoSWID per submod (not shown below).</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><pre=
 class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13.333333015441895px; margin-top: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;">18(
    [
        / protected parameters, bstr wrapped / &lt;&lt; {
            / alg / 1: -7 / ECDSA 256 /
        } &gt;&gt;,</pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: =
13.333333015441895px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: =
page;">
        / unprotected parameters / {
            / kid / 4: h'4173796d6d657472696345434453413
                          23536' / 'AsymmetricECDSA256' /
        },</pre><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></div><div =
class=3D""><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: =
13.333333015441895px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: =
page;">        / COSE payload, the EAT, bstr wrapped / &lt;&lt; {
            / nonce  /</pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: =
13.333333015441895px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: =
page;">            7:h'948f8860d13a463e8e',
   &nbsp;</pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: =
13.333333015441895px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: =
page;">            / UEID /</pre><pre class=3D"newpage" =
style=3D"font-size: 13.333333015441895px; margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;">            =
8:h'0198f50a4ff6c05861c8860d13a638ea4fe2f',
   &nbsp;</pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: =
13.333333015441895px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: =
page;">            / boot_state (based on the -01 draft) /</pre><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13.333333015441895px; margin-top: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;">            12:{true, =
true, true, true, false},
   &nbsp;</pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: =
13.333333015441895px; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: =
page;">            / time stamp /</pre><pre class=3D"newpage" =
style=3D"font-size: 13.333333015441895px; margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;">            =
6:1526542894,</pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" class=3D"">   =
&nbsp;</font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" class=3D"">    =
        / The CoSWID /</font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: medium;" class=3D"">            21: =
{</span></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><span style=3D"font-size: =
medium;" class=3D"">          &nbsp;</span></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><span =
style=3D"font-size: medium;" class=3D"">                / tag-id, =
globally unique identifier for the software component =
/</span></pre></div><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: =
none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; =
border: none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" class=3D"">&nbsp;     0: "<a =
href=3D"http://trustedfirmware.org/TF-M" =
class=3D"">trustedfirmware.org/TF-M</a>",</font></pre></div></blockquote><=
blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;" =
class=3D""><div class=3D""><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></font></pre></div></blockquote><blockquote =
style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" class=3D"">   =
&nbsp;  / tag-version (here: 0, i.e. initial tag) =
/</font></pre></div></blockquote><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 =
40px; border: none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" class=3D"">&nbsp;     12: =
0,</font></pre></div></blockquote><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 =
40px; border: none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></font></pre></div></blockquote><blockquote style=3D"margin: =
0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" class=3D"">&nbsp;     / software =
component name /</font></pre></div></blockquote><blockquote =
style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;     1: =
"TF-M",</font></pre></div></blockquote><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 =
0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></font></pre></div></blockquote><blockquote style=3D"margin: =
0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" class=3D"">&nbsp;     / version of =
the software component /</font></pre></div></blockquote><blockquote =
style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;     13: =
"1.0.0-rc1+build.123",</font></pre></div></blockquote><blockquote =
style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></font></pre></div></blockquote><blockquote style=3D"margin: =
0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" class=3D"">&nbsp;     / (optional) =
version scheme (here: semver) =
/</font></pre></div></blockquote><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 =
40px; border: none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" class=3D"">&nbsp;     14: =
16384,</font></pre></div></blockquote><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 =
40px; border: none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></font></pre></div></blockquote><blockquote style=3D"margin: =
0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" class=3D"">&nbsp;     / entity, =
i.e. organizations responsible for producing or =
releasing</font></pre></div></blockquote><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 =
0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;     the =
software component /</font></pre></div></blockquote><blockquote =
style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;     2: {</font></pre></div></blockquote><blockquote =
style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;       / entity name =
/</font></pre></div></blockquote><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 =
40px; border: none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" class=3D"">&nbsp;      &nbsp;  31: =
"Linaro Limited",</font></pre></div></blockquote><blockquote =
style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div =
class=3D""><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></font></pre></div></blockquote><blockquote style=3D"margin: =
0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;      / =
entity role (here: software creator) =
/</font></pre></div></blockquote><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 =
40px; border: none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;      33: =
2,</font></pre></div></blockquote><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 =
40px; border: none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></font></pre></div></blockquote><blockquote style=3D"margin: =
0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;      / =
thumbprint of the entity public key (algo -- here; SHA-256 -- and value) =
/</font></pre></div></blockquote><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 =
40px; border: none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;      34: =
[</font></pre></div></blockquote><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 =
40px; border: none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;    =
    1,</font></pre></div></blockquote><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 =
40px; border: none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;     =
&nbsp;    =
h'5e73c2e6a96be594e56b218418a3ea03f1397934a2517d781855195fe3c5916b'</font>=
</pre></div></blockquote><blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; =
border: none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" class=3D"">&nbsp;   &nbsp;    =
]</font></pre></div></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style=3D"margin:=
 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;" class=3D""><div class=3D""><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" class=3D"">&nbsp;          =
},</font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" class=3D"">    =
       / payload /<br class=3D"">&nbsp;          6: {<br class=3D"">&nbsp;=
 &nbsp; &nbsp;</font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" class=3D"">=
              / filesystem item (name and hash) /<br class=3D"">&nbsp; =
&nbsp;           17: {<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; =
&nbsp;</font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" class=3D"">    =
              24: "tfm.bin",<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;          =
   7: [<br class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;               1,<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;               =
h'4a039f284d8ad68ca5b4d1592977c7c964c4abb5d08d87e4a0346b80cce5c74d'<br =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;             ]</font></pre><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" class=3D"">               =
}</font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" =
class=3D"">&nbsp; &nbsp;        }<br class=3D"">&nbsp;      =
}</font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" class=3D"">   =
} &gt;&gt;,</font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font size=3D"3" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><pre class=3D"newpage" =
style=3D"font-size: 13.333333015441895px; margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;">   / signature / =
h'5427c1ff28d23fbad1f29c4c7c6a555e601d6fa29f
                   9179bc3d7438bacaca5acd08c8d4d4f96131680c42
                   9a01f85951ecee743a52b9b63632c57209120e1c9e
                   30'</pre><div =
class=3D"">]</div></pre></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"font-size: 13.333333015441895px; margin-top: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;">)</pre></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><br =
class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div =
class=3D"">On Nov 26, 2019, at 3:51 PM, Thomas Fossati &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Thomas.Fossati@arm.com" =
class=3D"">Thomas.Fossati@arm.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">Hi =
Hannes,<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">On 22/11/2019, 00:08, <a =
href=3D"mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com" =
class=3D"">Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">Hi all<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Can someone send an example around how this would actually =
look like?<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">For something such =
as TF-M, it should look like this:<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">{<br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;/ tag-id, globally unique identifier for the software =
component /<br class=3D""> &nbsp;0: "<a =
href=3D"http://trustedfirmware.org/TF-M" =
class=3D"">trustedfirmware.org/TF-M</a>",<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;/ tag-version (here: 0, i.e. initial tag) /<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;12: 0,<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> &nbsp;/ software component =
name /<br class=3D""> &nbsp;1: "TF-M",<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;/ version of the software component /<br class=3D""> &nbsp;13: =
"1.0.0-rc1+build.123",<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> &nbsp;/ (optional) =
version scheme (here: semver) /<br class=3D""> &nbsp;14: 16384,<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D""> &nbsp;/ entity, i.e. organizations =
responsible for producing or releasing<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;the software component /<br class=3D""> &nbsp;2: {<br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;/ entity name /<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;31: "Linaro Limited",<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;/ entity role (here: software creator) /<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;33: 2,<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;/ thumbprint of the entity public key (algo -- here; =
SHA-256 -- and value) /<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;34: [<br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;1,<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;h'5e73c2e6a96be594e56b218418a3ea03f1397934a2=
517d781855195fe3c5916b'<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;]<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;},<br class=3D""><br class=3D""> &nbsp;/ payload /<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;6: {<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;/ filesystem item (name and =
hash) /<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;17: {<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;24: "tfm.bin",<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;7: [<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;1,<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;h'4a039f284d8ad68ca5b4d1592977c7=
c964c4abb5d08d87e4a0346b80cce5c74d'<br class=3D""> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;]<br class=3D""> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;}<br =
class=3D""> &nbsp;}<br class=3D"">}<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">At =
least this would be my interpretation of the CoSWID draft. &nbsp;I'm a =
bit<br class=3D"">unsure whether a "filesystem" item is the most =
appropriate payload for a<br class=3D"">firmware thingy. &nbsp;Surely =
Henk can suggest something better.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Cheers!<br=
 class=3D""><br class=3D""><br class=3D"">IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents =
of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be =
privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the =
sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, =
use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. =
Thank you.<br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">RATS mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" class=3D"">RATS@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=3D""></body></html>=

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From nobody Tue Nov 26 19:19:22 2019
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Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2019 19:19:10 -0800
From: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones=40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EXTERNAL] Re:  EAT IANA registry
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On Sun, Nov 24, 2019 at 10:14:30PM +0000, Mike Jones wrote:
> EAT should use the IANA JSON Web Token (JWT) Claims registry for JWT claims and the IANA CBOR Web Token (CWT) Claims registry for CWT claims.  It’s intended that claims from different use cases inhabit the same registry, to facilitate claim reuse across use cases, where appropriate.  If they aren’t reused, no harm is done.
> 
> It would be far more confusing to developers to create duplicate, EAT-specific registries.

I think the concern here is basically analogous to the difficulty we had
with draft-ietf-oauth-jwsreq, where the protocol mechanics forced us to
treat various field identifiers as both OAuth Parmeters and JWT Claims,
with potentially conflicting registries involved.

Here for EAT we do not have a separate registry already and so can avoid
the worst of the conflicts, but I'm not sure that "avoiding duplicates"
would apply to a proposal that makes a single JWT/CWT claim for "EAT data"
and puts the attestation claims in a map as the value for that "EAT data"
claim.  What existing JWT/CWT claims would duplicate the potential contents
of the EAT data fields?

-Ben


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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EXTERNAL] Re:  EAT IANA registry
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--Apple-Mail=_AADB0005-31EB-4DF1-9BCA-66172BB9226B
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> On Nov 26, 2019, at 7:19 PM, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> wrote:
>=20
> ...but I'm not sure that "avoiding duplicates"
> would apply to a proposal that makes a single JWT/CWT claim for "EAT =
data"
> and puts the attestation claims in a map as the value for that "EAT =
data"
> claim.  What existing JWT/CWT claims would duplicate the potential =
contents
> of the EAT data fields?

That is an interesting thought =E2=80=94 put all of EAT into one JWT/CWT =
claim that is a map. Other=E2=80=99s have mentioned it to me. It would =
let EAT re use the most compact integer CBOR integer labels.

Right now we re use the following claims from JWT or CWT by normative =
reference:
- nonce
- Token ID cti/jti
- Time stamp (iat)

Also these JWT or CWT seem either likely or possible use in EAT:
- cnf (proof of possession of key)
- iss Issuer
- expiration
- not before

That=E2=80=99s a fairly large overlap which makes me disinclined to =
putting all of EAT into one map that is one JWT/CWT claim, separating =
EAT claims from CWT/JWT claims.

I=E2=80=99m no OAuth expert, but I wonder if some of the EAT claims =
might be useful for other than EAT tokens, another reason not to keep =
them separate.

I suspect we=E2=80=99re going to find at least one more use for a signed =
map of label-value pairs in the next few years that would be able to re =
use at least some of these claims =E2=80=94 another reason to keep them =
in the same space.

LL







--Apple-Mail=_AADB0005-31EB-4DF1-9BCA-66172BB9226B
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	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><div><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On =
Nov 26, 2019, at 7:19 PM, Benjamin Kaduk &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:kaduk@mit.edu" class=3D"">kaduk@mit.edu</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><span =
style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: =
12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; =
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; float: none; =
display: inline !important;" class=3D"">...but I'm not sure that =
"avoiding duplicates"</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">would apply to a proposal that makes a single JWT/CWT claim =
for "EAT data"</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">and puts the attestation claims in a map as the value for =
that "EAT data"</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">claim. &nbsp;What existing JWT/CWT claims would duplicate the =
potential contents</span><br style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;" class=3D""><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none; float: none; display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">of the EAT data fields?</span></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">That is an interesting thought =E2=80=94 put =
all of EAT into one JWT/CWT claim that is a map. Other=E2=80=99s have =
mentioned it to me. It would let EAT re use the most compact integer =
CBOR integer labels.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Right now we re use the following claims from JWT or CWT by =
normative reference:</div><div class=3D"">- nonce</div><div class=3D"">- =
Token ID cti/jti</div><div class=3D"">- Time stamp (iat)</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Also these JWT or CWT =
seem either likely or possible use in EAT:</div><div class=3D"">- cnf =
(proof of possession of key)</div><div class=3D"">- iss Issuer</div><div =
class=3D"">- expiration</div><div class=3D"">- not before</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">That=E2=80=99s a fairly =
large overlap which makes me disinclined to putting all of EAT into one =
map that is one JWT/CWT claim, separating EAT claims from CWT/JWT =
claims.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I=E2=80=99=
m no OAuth expert, but I wonder if some of the EAT claims might be =
useful for other than EAT tokens, another reason not to keep them =
separate.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">I =
suspect we=E2=80=99re going to find at least one more use for a signed =
map of label-value pairs in the next few years that would be able to re =
use at least some of these claims =E2=80=94 another reason to keep them =
in the same space.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_AADB0005-31EB-4DF1-9BCA-66172BB9226B--


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From: Thomas Fossati <Thomas.Fossati@arm.com>
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
CC: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, "sacm@ietf.org" <sacm@ietf.org>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Thomas Fossati <Thomas.Fossati@arm.com>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] CoSWID and EAT and CWT
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Subject: Re: [Rats] CoSWID and EAT and CWT
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Adoption call for draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module
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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain


Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) <ncamwing@cisco.com> wrote:
    > There was strong consensus to adopt
    > draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module and allow its scope to expand to
    > allow support for other formats (such as EAT).  To confirm this on the
    > list: if you believe that the RATS WG should NOT adopt this as a WG
    > document, please respond to this adoption call (by December 9, 2019
    > stating why.

**I am unclear of the user community for this YANG module**

I believe that many think of this as some kind of generic transport for
attestation, and this is why they want it "expanded".
I don't believe that your text above characterizes the TPM information
model correctly as a "format".  Therein lies the confusion.
I believe that the inclusion of EAT in this document will significantly
delay the document by causing a great deal of confusion.  I see no reason why
it should all be in a single YANG module, or in a single document.

Having said this, unless work on this document (and ensuing confusion and
debate over how the EAT leaf works)  pushes other work off the agenda, then I
do not object to the document being adopted.
(I do get to say, "I told you so" though)





--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-




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From: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 07:08:48 -0500
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To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
Cc: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>,  Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>,  Mike Jones <Michael.Jones=40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>,  "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EXTERNAL] Re: EAT IANA registry
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On Tue, Nov 26, 2019 at 11:39 PM Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
wrote:

>
> On Nov 26, 2019, at 7:19 PM, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> wrote:
>
> ...but I'm not sure that "avoiding duplicates"
> would apply to a proposal that makes a single JWT/CWT claim for "EAT data=
"
> and puts the attestation claims in a map as the value for that "EAT data"
> claim.  What existing JWT/CWT claims would duplicate the potential conten=
ts
> of the EAT data fields?
>
>
> That is an interesting thought =E2=80=94 put all of EAT into one JWT/CWT =
claim
> that is a map. Other=E2=80=99s have mentioned it to me. It would let EAT =
re use the
> most compact integer CBOR integer labels.
>
> Right now we re use the following claims from JWT or CWT by normative
> reference:
> - nonce
> - Token ID cti/jti
> - Time stamp (iat)
>
> Also these JWT or CWT seem either likely or possible use in EAT:
> - cnf (proof of possession of key)
> - iss Issuer
> - expiration
> - not before
>
> That=E2=80=99s a fairly large overlap which makes me disinclined to putti=
ng all of
> EAT into one map that is one JWT/CWT claim, separating EAT claims from
> CWT/JWT claims.
>
> I=E2=80=99m no OAuth expert, but I wonder if some of the EAT claims might=
 be
> useful for other than EAT tokens, another reason not to keep them separat=
e.
>
> I suspect we=E2=80=99re going to find at least one more use for a signed =
map of
> label-value pairs in the next few years that would be able to re use at
> least some of these claims =E2=80=94 another reason to keep them in the s=
ame space.
>

One registry might become large, but it sounds like it will be easier and
reuse may happen on occassion.

To Yaron's earlier question, you can use claims that have not been
registered as the requirement to figure out vendor specific claims was
discussed and agreed as important at a previous interim for RATS.  If I
remember correctly, this was not done the same between JWT and CWT and that
was the issue to figure out.

Best regards,
Kathleen


>
> LL
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>


--=20

Best regards,
Kathleen

--000000000000134c03059852def3
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Nov 26, 2019 at 11:39 PM Laur=
ence Lundblade &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com">lgl@island-reso=
rt.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left=
:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: break-word;"><br><div><blockquote type=
=3D"cite"><div>On Nov 26, 2019, at 7:19 PM, Benjamin Kaduk &lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:kaduk@mit.edu" target=3D"_blank">kaduk@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:</div><b=
r><div><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:norma=
l;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-al=
ign:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spaci=
ng:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">...but I&#39;m not s=
ure that &quot;avoiding duplicates&quot;</span><br style=3D"font-family:Hel=
vetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weigh=
t:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transf=
orm:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"><span st=
yle=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-=
caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-=
indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-dec=
oration:none;float:none;display:inline">would apply to a proposal that make=
s a single JWT/CWT claim for &quot;EAT data&quot;</span><br style=3D"font-f=
amily:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;f=
ont-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;te=
xt-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none"=
><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font=
-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:st=
art;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px=
;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">and puts the attestation c=
laims in a map as the value for that &quot;EAT data&quot;</span><br style=
=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-cap=
s:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-ind=
ent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-decora=
tion:none"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:n=
ormal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;tex=
t-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-s=
pacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">claim.=C2=A0 Wha=
t existing JWT/CWT claims would duplicate the potential contents</span><br =
style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-varian=
t-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;tex=
t-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;text-d=
ecoration:none"><span style=3D"font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;font-st=
yle:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:norma=
l;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;w=
ord-spacing:0px;text-decoration:none;float:none;display:inline">of the EAT =
data fields?</span></div></blockquote></div><br><div>That is an interesting=
 thought =E2=80=94 put all of EAT into one JWT/CWT claim that is a map. Oth=
er=E2=80=99s have mentioned it to me. It would let EAT re use the most comp=
act integer CBOR integer labels.</div><div><br></div><div>Right now we re u=
se the following claims from JWT or CWT by normative reference:</div><div>-=
 nonce</div><div>- Token ID cti/jti</div><div>- Time stamp (iat)</div><div>=
<br></div><div>Also these JWT or CWT seem either likely or possible use in =
EAT:</div><div>- cnf (proof of possession of key)</div><div>- iss Issuer</d=
iv><div>- expiration</div><div>- not before</div><div><br></div><div>That=
=E2=80=99s a fairly large overlap which makes me disinclined to putting all=
 of EAT into one map that is one JWT/CWT claim, separating EAT claims from =
CWT/JWT claims.</div><div><br></div><div>I=E2=80=99m no OAuth expert, but I=
 wonder if some of the EAT claims might be useful for other than EAT tokens=
, another reason not to keep them separate.</div><div><br></div><div>I susp=
ect we=E2=80=99re going to find at least one more use for a signed map of l=
abel-value pairs in the next few years that would be able to re use at leas=
t some of these claims =E2=80=94 another reason to keep them in the same sp=
ace.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>One registry might become =
large, but it sounds like it will be easier and reuse may happen on occassi=
on.=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>To Yaron&#39;s earlier question, y=
ou can use claims that have not been registered as the requirement to figur=
e out vendor specific claims was discussed and agreed as important at a pre=
vious interim for RATS.=C2=A0 If I remember correctly, this was not done th=
e same between JWT and CWT and that was the issue to figure out.</div><div>=
<br></div><div>Best regards,</div><div>Kathleen</div><div>=C2=A0</div><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:=
1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"overflow-wrap: b=
reak-word;"><div><br></div><div>LL</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>=
<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div>______________=
_________________________________<br>
RATS mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">RATS@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"=
 class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div>Best regards,</div><di=
v>Kathleen</div></div></div></div>

--000000000000134c03059852def3--


From nobody Wed Nov 27 05:08:26 2019
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [sacm]  CoSWID and EAT and CWT
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Hi Laurence, hi thomas,
hi list,

Thomas, thank you for the nice example write-up! And Laurance, thank you 
for the write-up of an example of a COSE signed EAT including an 
unsigned payload coswid tag.

This is a write-up one option 3.) in issue #46.

Option 4.) would wrap the CoSWID map in a COSE before putting it into an 
EAT using another key (let's say 22 instead of 21 - that's just an 
example). A reason could be that an external entity, such as the SIWD 
role software-creator [1], created the tag and signed it. Other keys 
would follow for XML encoding, type of resource collection, as outlined 
in #46.

Viele Grüße,

Henk

[1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-sacm-coswid-13#section-4.2

On 27.11.19 01:48, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
> Looks good, Thomas
> 
> Here’s a signed EAT with the CoSWID as a claim with label 21.
> 
> In EATs with submods, there would likely be a CoSWID per submod (not 
> shown below).
> 
> LL
> 
> 
> 18(
>      [
>          / protected parameters, bstr wrapped / << {
>              / alg / 1: -7 / ECDSA 256 /
>          } >>,
> 
>          / unprotected parameters / {
>              / kid / 4: h'4173796d6d657472696345434453413
>                            23536' / 'AsymmetricECDSA256' /
>          },
> 
> 
>          / COSE payload, the EAT, bstr wrapped / << {
>              / nonce  /
> 
>              7:h'948f8860d13a463e8e',
>      
> 
>              / UEID /
> 
>              8:h'0198f50a4ff6c05861c8860d13a638ea4fe2f',
>      
> 
>              / boot_state (based on the -01 draft) /
> 
>              12:{true, true, true, true, false},
>      
> 
>              / time stamp /
> 
>              6:1526542894,
> 
> / The CoSWID /
> 
> 21: {
> 
> / tag-id, globally unique identifier for the software component /
> 
>            0: "trustedfirmware.org/TF-M <http://trustedfirmware.org/TF-M>",
> 
> 
>            / tag-version (here: 0, i.e. initial tag) /
> 
>            12: 0,
> 
> 
>            / software component name /
> 
>            1: "TF-M",
> 
> 
>            / version of the software component /
> 
>            13: "1.0.0-rc1+build.123",
> 
> 
>            / (optional) version scheme (here: semver) /
> 
>            14: 16384,
> 
> 
>            / entity, i.e. organizations responsible for producing or
>         releasing
> 
>              the software component /
> 
>            2: {
> 
>              / entity name /
> 
>              31: "Linaro Limited",
> 
> 
>              / entity role (here: software creator) /
> 
>              33: 2,
> 
> 
>              / thumbprint of the entity public key (algo -- here;
>         SHA-256 -- and value) /
> 
>              34: [
> 
>                1,
> 
>               
>         h'5e73c2e6a96be594e56b218418a3ea03f1397934a2517d781855195fe3c5916b'
> 
>              ]
> 
>        },
> 
> 
>     / payload /
>        6: {
> 
>     / filesystem item (name and hash) /
>          17: {
> 
>     24: "tfm.bin",
>            7: [
>              1,
>             
>     h'4a039f284d8ad68ca5b4d1592977c7c964c4abb5d08d87e4a0346b80cce5c74d'
>            ]
> 
>     }
> 
>          }
>        }
> 
>     } >>,
> 
> 
>         / signature / h'5427c1ff28d23fbad1f29c4c7c6a555e601d6fa29f
>                         9179bc3d7438bacaca5acd08c8d4d4f96131680c42
>                         9a01f85951ecee743a52b9b63632c57209120e1c9e
>                         30'
> 
>     ]
> 
> )
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Nov 26, 2019, at 3:51 PM, Thomas Fossati <Thomas.Fossati@arm.com 
>> <mailto:Thomas.Fossati@arm.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Hannes,
>>
>> On 22/11/2019, 00:08, Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com 
>> <mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>> wrote:
>>> Hi all
>>>
>>> Can someone send an example around how this would actually look like?
>>
>> For something such as TF-M, it should look like this:
>>
>> {
>>  / tag-id, globally unique identifier for the software component /
>>  0: "trustedfirmware.org/TF-M <http://trustedfirmware.org/TF-M>",
>>
>>  / tag-version (here: 0, i.e. initial tag) /
>>  12: 0,
>>
>>  / software component name /
>>  1: "TF-M",
>>
>>  / version of the software component /
>>  13: "1.0.0-rc1+build.123",
>>
>>  / (optional) version scheme (here: semver) /
>>  14: 16384,
>>
>>  / entity, i.e. organizations responsible for producing or releasing
>>    the software component /
>>  2: {
>>    / entity name /
>>    31: "Linaro Limited",
>>
>>    / entity role (here: software creator) /
>>    33: 2,
>>
>>    / thumbprint of the entity public key (algo -- here; SHA-256 -- and 
>> value) /
>>    34: [
>>      1,
>>      h'5e73c2e6a96be594e56b218418a3ea03f1397934a2517d781855195fe3c5916b'
>>    ]
>>  },
>>
>>  / payload /
>>  6: {
>>    / filesystem item (name and hash) /
>>    17: {
>>      24: "tfm.bin",
>>      7: [
>>        1,
>>        h'4a039f284d8ad68ca5b4d1592977c7c964c4abb5d08d87e4a0346b80cce5c74d'
>>      ]
>>    }
>>  }
>> }
>>
>> At least this would be my interpretation of the CoSWID draft.  I'm a bit
>> unsure whether a "filesystem" item is the most appropriate payload for a
>> firmware thingy.  Surely Henk can suggest something better.
>>
>> Cheers!
>>
>>
>> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are 
>> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended 
>> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose 
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> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/sacm
> 


From nobody Wed Nov 27 05:25:02 2019
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To: Thomas Fossati <Thomas.Fossati@arm.com>, Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, "sacm@ietf.org" <sacm@ietf.org>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
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From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 14:24:47 +0100
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [sacm]  CoSWID and EAT and CWT
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Hello Thomas,

yes there are ways to deal with firmware in SWID, namely the resource 
type (index 19) in the set of SWID resource-collection [1] in 
combination with the rel type (index 40) entries.

This way, you would not have to use filesystem-items, but this way is 
also a bit clunky and would require an informational guidance document 
describing how to use *SWID for that. There are some quite smart ways to 
do that actually with filesystem-items, but I think it is more feasible 
to use a SUIT manifest here to describe everything relevant to the 
"firmware thingy" and then put a CoSWID into the SUIT manifest's outer 
wrapper [2] that then represents the rest of the semantics that is not 
covered by the manifest but by CoSWID. This method is fine, as the COSE 
envelope around the EAT will make tempering with the outer wrapper of 
the SUIT Manifest evident.

I think that is a more elegant way to do it, actually, and the reason 
why issue #46 in the EAT repo proposes to define a Claim to include a 
SUIT Manifest in an EAT, too.

Viele Grüße,

Henk

[1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-sacm-coswid-13#section-2.9.2
[2] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-suit-manifest-02#section-7.2

On 27.11.19 00:51, Thomas Fossati wrote:
> At least this would be my interpretation of the CoSWID draft.  I'm a bit
> unsure whether a "filesystem" item is the most appropriate payload for a
> firmware thingy.  Surely Henk can suggest something better.


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  Branch: refs/heads/coswid-&-suit-mainfest-claims
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From: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
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References: <858c7298-10d2-9efc-ca94-98dc9801e607@sit.fraunhofer.de>
Cc: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, Thomas Fossati <Thomas.Fossati@arm.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, "sacm@ietf.org" <sacm@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [sacm]  CoSWID and EAT and CWT
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Sent from my mobile device

> On Nov 27, 2019, at 8:08 AM, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.d=
e> wrote:
>=20
> =EF=BB=BFHi Laurence, hi thomas,
> hi list,
>=20
> Thomas, thank you for the nice example write-up! And Laurance, thank you f=
or the write-up of an example of a COSE signed EAT including an unsigned pay=
load coswid tag.
>=20
> This is a write-up one option 3.) in issue #46.
>=20
> Option 4.) would wrap the CoSWID map in a COSE before putting it into an E=
AT using another key (let's say 22 instead of 21 - that's just an example). A=
 reason could be that an external entity, such as the SIWD role software-cre=
ator [1], created the tag and signed it. Other keys would follow for XML enc=
oding, type of resource collection, as outlined in #46.

Having the option for both would meet the requirements for a signed or unsig=
ned SWID/CoSWID previously discussed.

Best regards,
Kathleen=20

>=20
> Viele Gr=C3=BC=C3=9Fe,
>=20
> Henk
>=20
> [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-sacm-coswid-13#section-4.2
>=20
>> On 27.11.19 01:48, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>> Looks good, Thomas
>> Here=E2=80=99s a signed EAT with the CoSWID as a claim with label 21.
>> In EATs with submods, there would likely be a CoSWID per submod (not show=
n below).
>> LL
>> 18(
>>     [
>>         / protected parameters, bstr wrapped / << {
>>             / alg / 1: -7 / ECDSA 256 /
>>         } >>,
>>         / unprotected parameters / {
>>             / kid / 4: h'4173796d6d657472696345434453413
>>                           23536' / 'AsymmetricECDSA256' /
>>         },
>>         / COSE payload, the EAT, bstr wrapped / << {
>>             / nonce  /
>>             7:h'948f8860d13a463e8e',
>>                  / UEID /
>>             8:h'0198f50a4ff6c05861c8860d13a638ea4fe2f',
>>                  / boot_state (based on the -01 draft) /
>>             12:{true, true, true, true, false},
>>                  / time stamp /
>>             6:1526542894,
>> / The CoSWID /
>> 21: {
>> / tag-id, globally unique identifier for the software component /
>>           0: "trustedfirmware.org/TF-M <http://trustedfirmware.org/TF-M>"=
,
>>           / tag-version (here: 0, i.e. initial tag) /
>>           12: 0,
>>           / software component name /
>>           1: "TF-M",
>>           / version of the software component /
>>           13: "1.0.0-rc1+build.123",
>>           / (optional) version scheme (here: semver) /
>>           14: 16384,
>>           / entity, i.e. organizations responsible for producing or
>>        releasing
>>             the software component /
>>           2: {
>>             / entity name /
>>             31: "Linaro Limited",
>>             / entity role (here: software creator) /
>>             33: 2,
>>             / thumbprint of the entity public key (algo -- here;
>>        SHA-256 -- and value) /
>>             34: [
>>               1,
>>                      h'5e73c2e6a96be594e56b218418a3ea03f1397934a2517d7818=
55195fe3c5916b'
>>             ]
>>       },
>>    / payload /
>>       6: {
>>    / filesystem item (name and hash) /
>>         17: {
>>    24: "tfm.bin",
>>           7: [
>>             1,
>>                h'4a039f284d8ad68ca5b4d1592977c7c964c4abb5d08d87e4a0346b80=
cce5c74d'
>>           ]
>>    }
>>         }
>>       }
>>    } >>,
>>        / signature / h'5427c1ff28d23fbad1f29c4c7c6a555e601d6fa29f
>>                        9179bc3d7438bacaca5acd08c8d4d4f96131680c42
>>                        9a01f85951ecee743a52b9b63632c57209120e1c9e
>>                        30'
>>    ]
>> )
>>>> On Nov 26, 2019, at 3:51 PM, Thomas Fossati <Thomas.Fossati@arm.com <ma=
ilto:Thomas.Fossati@arm.com>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Hi Hannes,
>>>=20
>>> On 22/11/2019, 00:08, Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com <mailto:Hannes.Tschofeni=
g@arm.com>> wrote:
>>>> Hi all
>>>>=20
>>>> Can someone send an example around how this would actually look like?
>>>=20
>>> For something such as TF-M, it should look like this:
>>>=20
>>> {
>>>  / tag-id, globally unique identifier for the software component /
>>>  0: "trustedfirmware.org/TF-M <http://trustedfirmware.org/TF-M>",
>>>=20
>>>  / tag-version (here: 0, i.e. initial tag) /
>>>  12: 0,
>>>=20
>>>  / software component name /
>>>  1: "TF-M",
>>>=20
>>>  / version of the software component /
>>>  13: "1.0.0-rc1+build.123",
>>>=20
>>>  / (optional) version scheme (here: semver) /
>>>  14: 16384,
>>>=20
>>>  / entity, i.e. organizations responsible for producing or releasing
>>>    the software component /
>>>  2: {
>>>    / entity name /
>>>    31: "Linaro Limited",
>>>=20
>>>    / entity role (here: software creator) /
>>>    33: 2,
>>>=20
>>>    / thumbprint of the entity public key (algo -- here; SHA-256 -- and v=
alue) /
>>>    34: [
>>>      1,
>>>      h'5e73c2e6a96be594e56b218418a3ea03f1397934a2517d781855195fe3c5916b'=

>>>    ]
>>>  },
>>>=20
>>>  / payload /
>>>  6: {
>>>    / filesystem item (name and hash) /
>>>    17: {
>>>      24: "tfm.bin",
>>>      7: [
>>>        1,
>>>        h'4a039f284d8ad68ca5b4d1592977c7c964c4abb5d08d87e4a0346b80cce5c74=
d'
>>>      ]
>>>    }
>>>  }
>>> }
>>>=20
>>> At least this would be my interpretation of the CoSWID draft.  I'm a bit=

>>> unsure whether a "filesystem" item is the most appropriate payload for a=

>>> firmware thingy.  Surely Henk can suggest something better.
>>>=20
>>> Cheers!
>>>=20
>>>=20
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From: Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net>
To: "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" <ncamwing@cisco.com>
CC: Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay <jmfmckay@gmail.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Adoption call for draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Adoption call for draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module
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Hi Nancy,
  I favor adoption of the YANG draft.  Although I agree with Michael that i=
f we're going to extend it to cover EAT as well, we should make sure we kno=
w who thinks they want both in one model.
  Thanks
  /guy




Juniper Business Use Only
From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2019 4:39 PM
To: rats@ietf.org
Subject: [Rats] Adoption call for draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module

All,
There was strong consensus to adopt draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module a=
nd allow its scope to expand to allow support for other formats (such as EA=
T).  To confirm this on the list: if you believe that the RATS WG should NO=
T adopt this as a WG document, please respond to this adoption call (by Dec=
ember 9, 2019 stating why.

Warm regards,
   Nancy

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Hi Nancy,<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">&nbsp; I <i>favor</=
i> adoption of the YANG draft.&nbsp; Although I agree with Michael that if =
we&#8217;re going to extend it to cover EAT as well, we should make sure we=
 know who thinks they want both in one model.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">&nbsp; Thanks<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">&nbsp; /guy<o:p></o=
:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
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<span style=3D"font-size:7.0pt;color:black">Juniper Business Use Only</span=
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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">From:</span></b>=
<span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"> RATS &lt;rats-bounces@ietf.org&gt;
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 25, 2019 4:39 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> rats@ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Rats] Adoption call for draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-mod=
ule<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">All,<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">There was strong co=
nsensus to adopt draft-birkholz-rats-basic-yang-module and allow its scope =
to expand to allow support for other formats (such as EAT).&nbsp; To confir=
m this on the list: if you believe that the
 RATS WG should NOT adopt this as a WG document, please respond to this ado=
ption call (by December 9, 2019 stating why.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">Warm regards,<o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt">&nbsp;&nbsp; Nancy<=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
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From: Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net>
To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "pritikin@cisco.com" <pritikin@cisco.com>
CC: Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay <jmfmckay@gmail.com>, Henk Berkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "Smith,    Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, William Bellingrath <wbellingrath@juniper.net>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] name of identity key
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Hi Michael,
  I'm not sure I'm seeing the problem...
  The identity key used for ZTP and the identity key used to prove that you=
're attesting the right box are most likely  the same, as they have the sam=
e role, that of authenticating a secure connection to a device.  And it's u=
p to the device manufacturer and the system administrator as to whether the=
y want to use an IDevID provided by the manufacturer or an LDevID provided =
by the sysadmin.  Obviously if you want drop-ship sZTP to work, it has to b=
e the manufacturer's identity key, since the sysadmin won't get to touch th=
e box before it's plugged in.  But there's nothing to say they couldn't pre=
-stage it and install a Local Device Identity key (and Local Attestation Ke=
y)
  In RIV, it's the Attestation key (Initial or Local) that must be unique, =
and that one has no purpose other than to sign the evidence collected in th=
e TPM.

  Is there something I'm missing in your question below?

  Thanks
/guy




Juniper Business Use Only

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>=20
Sent: Monday, November 25, 2019 2:57 AM
To: Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net>; pritikin@cisco.com
Cc: Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay <jmfmckay@gmail.com>; Henk Berkholz <henk.birk=
holz@sit.fraunhofer.de>; Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com>; William Bellingr=
ath <wbellingrath@juniper.net>
Subject: Re: name of identity key


Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net> wrote:
    > Hi Michael, I don't want to lose your question on the name of the
    > identity credential in RIV (or RATS)...  I think you were saying that
    > from a RATS point of view, you'd want to make the spec more generic
    > than a strict requirement for IEEE DevID.  Can you help me see why?  =
Is
    > there a more generic way of specifying the certificate that goes with
    > the identity key?  Thanks /guy

I (draft-ietf-anima-bootstrapping-keyinfra) am the user of an IDevID deploy=
ed in devices.  This is often located in a TPM.

If the TPM has to have a different IDevID key for signing Evidence, then I =
forsee a number of problems if the key has the same DN (serial-number, etc.=
) as the IDevID used for onboarding.

Is it signed by the same manufacturer CA as the onboarding IDevID?
(what names do I even use to distinguish these two keys?)

I can see manufacturers pushing back on having two identities.

One answer might be:
  MANUCA -> RIV_IDEVID(w/CA:TRUE) -> Onboarding_IDEVID

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works  -=3D =
IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-



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Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 17:53:32 +0200
From: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
CC: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones=40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Rats] [EXTERNAL] Re:  EAT IANA registry
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EXTERNAL] Re:  EAT IANA registry
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To put it into perspective, there are already 57 claims registered [1]. So =
even if 7 claims overlap, this is a relatively *small* number. IMO there is =
high value in a separate namespace for EAT claims, and the standard way to c=
reate such a namespace in JSON is exactly as Ben is proposing.

=20

Thanks,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Yaron

=20

[1] https://www.iana.org/assignments/jwt/jwt.xhtml

=20

From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
Date: Wednesday, November 27, 2019 at 06:39
To: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
Cc: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Yaron Sheffe=
r <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Hannes Tschofeni=
g <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
Subject: Re: [Rats] [EXTERNAL] Re: EAT IANA registry

=20

=20

On Nov 26, 2019, at 7:19 PM, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> wrote:

=20

...but I'm not sure that "avoiding duplicates"
would apply to a proposal that makes a single JWT/CWT claim for "EAT data"
and puts the attestation claims in a map as the value for that "EAT data"
claim.  What existing JWT/CWT claims would duplicate the potential contents
of the EAT data fields?

=20

That is an interesting thought =E2=80=94 put all of EAT into one JWT/CWT claim th=
at is a map. Other=E2=80=99s have mentioned it to me. It would let EAT re use the =
most compact integer CBOR integer labels.

=20

Right now we re use the following claims from JWT or CWT by normative refer=
ence:

- nonce

- Token ID cti/jti

- Time stamp (iat)

=20

Also these JWT or CWT seem either likely or possible use in EAT:

- cnf (proof of possession of key)

- iss Issuer

- expiration

- not before

=20

That=E2=80=99s a fairly large overlap which makes me disinclined to putting all o=
f EAT into one map that is one JWT/CWT claim, separating EAT claims from CWT=
/JWT claims.

=20

I=E2=80=99m no OAuth expert, but I wonder if some of the EAT claims might be usef=
ul for other than EAT tokens, another reason not to keep them separate.

=20

I suspect we=E2=80=99re going to find at least one more use for a signed map of l=
abel-value pairs in the next few years that would be able to re use at least=
 some of these claims =E2=80=94 another reason to keep them in the same space.

=20

LL

=20

=20

=20

=20

=20

=20


--B_3657722013_1448132465
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04/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta http-equiv=3DC=
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--></style></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSe=
ction1><p class=3DMsoNormal>To put it into perspective, there are already 57 c=
laims registered [1]. So even if 7 claims overlap, this is a relatively *<b>=
small</b>* number. IMO there is high value in a separate namespace for EAT c=
laims, and the standard way to create such a namespace in JSON is exactly as=
 Ben is proposing.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p =
class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Yaron<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p c=
lass=3DMsoNormal>[1] https://www.iana.org/assignments/jwt/jwt.xhtml<o:p></o:p>=
</p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-t=
op:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><spa=
n style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>From: </span></b><span style=3D'font-si=
ze:12.0pt;color:black'>Laurence Lundblade &lt;lgl@island-resort.com&gt;<br><=
b>Date: </b>Wednesday, November 27, 2019 at 06:39<br><b>To: </b>Benjamin Kad=
uk &lt;kaduk@mit.edu&gt;<br><b>Cc: </b>Mike Jones &lt;Michael.Jones=3D40micros=
oft.com@dmarc.ietf.org&gt;, Yaron Sheffer &lt;yaronf.ietf@gmail.com&gt;, &qu=
ot;rats@ietf.org&quot; &lt;rats@ietf.org&gt;, Hannes Tschofenig &lt;Hannes.T=
schofenig@arm.com&gt;<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [Rats] [EXTERNAL] Re: EAT IANA =
registry<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p=
></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><blockquote style=3D'm=
argin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On Nov 26, 2019=
, at 7:19 PM, Benjamin Kaduk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kaduk@mit.edu">kaduk@mit.ed=
u</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p=
><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:Helvetica'=
>...but I'm not sure that &quot;avoiding duplicates&quot;<br>would apply to =
a proposal that makes a single JWT/CWT claim for &quot;EAT data&quot;<br>and=
 puts the attestation claims in a map as the value for that &quot;EAT data&q=
uot;<br>claim. &nbsp;What existing JWT/CWT claims would duplicate the potent=
ial contents<br>of the EAT data fields?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></blockqu=
ote></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Th=
at is an interesting thought =E2=80=94 put all of EAT into one JWT/CWT claim that =
is a map. Other=E2=80=99s have mentioned it to me. It would let EAT re use the mos=
t compact integer CBOR integer labels.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMso=
Normal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Right now we re us=
e the following claims from JWT or CWT by normative reference:<o:p></o:p></p=
></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>- nonce<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMso=
Normal>- Token ID cti/jti<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>- Time=
 stamp (iat)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Also these JWT or CWT seem either likely or =
possible use in EAT:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>- cnf (proo=
f of possession of key)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>- iss Is=
suer<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>- expiration<o:p></o:p></p>=
</div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>- not before<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>That=E2=80=99s a fai=
rly large overlap which makes me disinclined to putting all of EAT into one =
map that is one JWT/CWT claim, separating EAT claims from CWT/JWT claims.<o:=
p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal>I=E2=80=99m no OAuth expert, but I wonder if some of the EAT clai=
ms might be useful for other than EAT tokens, another reason not to keep the=
m separate.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p=
></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I suspect we=E2=80=99re going to find at least one =
more use for a signed map of label-value pairs in the next few years that wo=
uld be able to re use at least some of these claims =E2=80=94 another reason to ke=
ep them in the same space.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>=
&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>LL<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p=
 class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nb=
sp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><=
p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div=
></body></html>

--B_3657722013_1448132465--



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From: Thomas Fossati <Thomas.Fossati@arm.com>
To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, "sacm@ietf.org" <sacm@ietf.org>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
CC: Thomas Fossati <Thomas.Fossati@arm.com>
Thread-Topic: [sacm] [Rats] CoSWID and EAT and CWT
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/wAnB5D5uSORgG7D44kDVMa9w-jU>
Subject: Re: [Rats] [sacm]  CoSWID and EAT and CWT
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From: Adrian Shaw <Adrian.Shaw@arm.com>
To: Thomas Fossati <Thomas.Fossati@arm.com>
CC: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, "sacm@ietf.org" <sacm@ietf.org>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] [sacm]  CoSWID and EAT and CWT
Thread-Index: AQHVpSYV+X7HT1pqSkuRj6hkFbWi5qefPcIAgAAD4wA=
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/nvcbQ_Qkntenc-0qmpviVBdjGaE>
Subject: Re: [Rats] [sacm]  CoSWID and EAT and CWT
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From nobody Wed Nov 27 09:19:01 2019
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To: Thomas Fossati <Thomas.Fossati@arm.com>, Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, "sacm@ietf.org" <sacm@ietf.org>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [sacm]  CoSWID and EAT and CWT
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Hello Thomas,

we have a coswid extension in the queue that allows for the inclusion of 
hash-entries to very kind of resource-collection type (and also 12-14 
additional indexes, I think, that allow for the creation of Reference 
Integrity Manifests, including hashes for running processes). But this 
will not be submitted this year anymore, I am afraid. Very early next year!

You were not looking at the wrong place, it simply is not there yet, 
because the inclusion of hash-entries is done via "any attributes" in 
ISO XML SWIDs and NISTIR 8060 is focusing on files (not 
filesystem-items, which would include directories).

But we are very aware of that and will remediate that very soon (aka the 
CDDL is already written and passed multi-peer internal review).

It will be less of a "magic firmware recipe", though. If there is 
interest, we can increase the detail about how to reference and locate 
SUIT manifest content (the CDDL unpack operator can help with that, 
therefore retaining the semantic relationship with the SUIT manifest 
however you want to use it).

Viele Grüße,

Henk

On 27.11.19 17:59, Thomas Fossati wrote:
> Hi Henk
> 
> Thanks very much for your input.
> 
> On 27/11/2019, 13:24, "Henk Birkholz" <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
>> yes there are ways to deal with firmware in SWID, namely the resource
>> type (index 19) in the set of SWID resource-collection [1] in
>> combination with the rel type (index 40) entries.
>>
>> This way, you would not have to use filesystem-items, but this way is
>> also a bit clunky and would require an informational guidance document
>> describing how to use *SWID for that.
> 
> That's interesting because initially I also tried to use the resource
> type -- which looked like the less wrong among all the available types
> in the resource collection.  However it wasn't clear to me how to
> associate a checksum to the component, hence I went for the
> filesystem-item.  Maybe I was just looking in the wrong place or maybe,
> as you say, there's a magic firmware recipe that's worth documenting
> here.
> 
>> There are some quite smart ways to do that actually with
>> filesystem-items, but I think it is more feasible to use a SUIT
>> manifest here to describe everything relevant to the "firmware thingy"
>> and then put a CoSWID into the SUIT manifest's outer wrapper [2] that
>> then represents the rest of the semantics that is not covered by the
>> manifest but by CoSWID. This method is fine, as the COSE envelope
>> around the EAT will make tempering with the outer wrapper of the SUIT
>> Manifest evident.
>>
>> I think that is a more elegant way to do it, actually, and the reason
>> why issue #46 in the EAT repo proposes to define a Claim to include a
>> SUIT Manifest in an EAT, too.
> 
> I'll look into this, thanks for the pointer.
> 
> Stepping back for a second and looking from the perspective of my
> immediate requirement (i.e., "Is it possible to translate PSA's software
> component claim using purely EAT constructs?"), ideally I'd like to have
> something that is expressive enough to encode my semantics (i.e.: SW
> component name, version, signer and measurement) without being overly
> complex.

Your examples look very close to the CoSWID as RIM, maybe the gaps to 
fill here in order to represent "filesystem-less" firmware is in fact 
relatively small. We will submit the CoSWID RIM part in a few weeks and 
will get some feedback on that (e.g. hash-entries for resources).

> 
> So my knee-jerk reaction is if that implies pulling a dependency on
> SUIT maybe it's a bit too much?  But I confess haven't yet looked at
> the details of your proposal nor I can claim enough SUIT-foo to really
> grok the complexity involved.  As said, I'll have a look shortly.

The SUIT manifest can look very complex (CDDL-wise), but please keep in 
mind that most members (content items) are optional, so an actual 
instance of SUIT manifest can be quite... concise :) While I see the 
point in doing it "all in one thing" the SUIT manifest is an excellent 
representation for what is needed in updating small and big or cloudy 
things and redundant semantics in data formats often create 
corresponding friction in semantic interoperability later on (iotdir hat 
on opinion). So my first reaction is to combine the functionality of 
both and not to recreate the functionality redundantly on each side.

> 
> cheers!
> 
> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.

Viele Grüße,

Henk


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To: Adrian Shaw <Adrian.Shaw@arm.com>, Thomas Fossati <Thomas.Fossati@arm.com>
CC: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, "sacm@ietf.org" <sacm@ietf.org>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
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From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [sacm] CoSWID and EAT and CWT
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Hi Adrian,

to your first point: I am not sure what legacy systems that would be 
able to create/process EAT would not be able to process a SUIT manifest. 
Could you elaborate on that? I'd maybe not call that a dependency, but 
rather synergy in data models, but I am under the suspicion that I 
simply don't understand the scenario that you are talking about.

To your second point, as the SUIT manifest CDDL specification allows for 
a lot of optional types or members, a small paragraph of which ones to 
use when (like NISTIR 8060 does it for SWID, only on a very much larger 
level) could address that?

Then again, if there is enough interest to do a small subset of new 
firmware related CDDL content as highlighted by Thomas

> ideally I'd like to have
> something that is expressive enough to encode my semantics (i.e.: SW
> component name, version, signer and measurement) without being overly
> complex.

we could add that to the upcoming CoSWID extension. Again, I would like 
to have these additional items as close as possible to the SUIT manifest 
semantically, so there will never be any kind of confusion what each 
value is intended to express and interoperability is "a piece of cake". 
And with respect to firmware semantics, SUIT has the lead here, I think

Viele Grüße,

Henk


On 27.11.19 18:13, Adrian Shaw wrote:
> While there is some synergy with the SUIT definition, I’m unconvinced that it should be the way to express a software component metadata. Firstly, there are legacy systems without SUIT that would want to use EAT, and such a dependency would make it hard for incremental adoption. Secondly, not all the data from the SUIT manifest is needed for this claim.
> 
> Adrian
> 
>> On 27 Nov 2019, at 16:59, Thomas Fossati <Thomas.Fossati@arm.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Henk
>>
>> Thanks very much for your input.
>>
>> On 27/11/2019, 13:24, "Henk Birkholz" <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
>>> yes there are ways to deal with firmware in SWID, namely the resource
>>> type (index 19) in the set of SWID resource-collection [1] in
>>> combination with the rel type (index 40) entries.
>>>
>>> This way, you would not have to use filesystem-items, but this way is
>>> also a bit clunky and would require an informational guidance document
>>> describing how to use *SWID for that.
>>
>> That's interesting because initially I also tried to use the resource
>> type -- which looked like the less wrong among all the available types
>> in the resource collection.  However it wasn't clear to me how to
>> associate a checksum to the component, hence I went for the
>> filesystem-item.  Maybe I was just looking in the wrong place or maybe,
>> as you say, there's a magic firmware recipe that's worth documenting
>> here.
>>
>>> There are some quite smart ways to do that actually with
>>> filesystem-items, but I think it is more feasible to use a SUIT
>>> manifest here to describe everything relevant to the "firmware thingy"
>>> and then put a CoSWID into the SUIT manifest's outer wrapper [2] that
>>> then represents the rest of the semantics that is not covered by the
>>> manifest but by CoSWID. This method is fine, as the COSE envelope
>>> around the EAT will make tempering with the outer wrapper of the SUIT
>>> Manifest evident.
>>>
>>> I think that is a more elegant way to do it, actually, and the reason
>>> why issue #46 in the EAT repo proposes to define a Claim to include a
>>> SUIT Manifest in an EAT, too.
>>
>> I'll look into this, thanks for the pointer.
>>
>> Stepping back for a second and looking from the perspective of my
>> immediate requirement (i.e., "Is it possible to translate PSA's software
>> component claim using purely EAT constructs?"), ideally I'd like to have
>> something that is expressive enough to encode my semantics (i.e.: SW
>> component name, version, signer and measurement) without being overly
>> complex.
>>
>> So my knee-jerk reaction is if that implies pulling a dependency on
>> SUIT maybe it's a bit too much?  But I confess haven't yet looked at
>> the details of your proposal nor I can claim enough SUIT-foo to really
>> grok the complexity involved.  As said, I'll have a look shortly.
>>
>> cheers!
>>
>> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
>> _______________________________________________
>> RATS mailing list
>> RATS@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
> 
> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
> 


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From: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 12:50:15 -0500
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To: Adrian Shaw <Adrian.Shaw@arm.com>
Cc: Thomas Fossati <Thomas.Fossati@arm.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>,  Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>,  Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, "sacm@ietf.org" <sacm@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [sacm] CoSWID and EAT and CWT
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On Wed, Nov 27, 2019 at 12:13 PM Adrian Shaw <Adrian.Shaw@arm.com> wrote:

> While there is some synergy with the SUIT definition, I=E2=80=99m unconvi=
nced that
> it should be the way to express a software component metadata. Firstly,
> there are legacy systems without SUIT that would want to use EAT, and suc=
h
> a dependency would make it hard for incremental adoption. Secondly, not a=
ll
> the data from the SUIT manifest is needed for this claim.
>

Agreed, there are other standards for software update that have been
adopted and use alternate formats for manifests.  I like the idea of
SWID/CoSWID as well.

Best regards,
Kathleen

>
> Adrian
>
> > On 27 Nov 2019, at 16:59, Thomas Fossati <Thomas.Fossati@arm.com> wrote=
:
> >
> > Hi Henk
> >
> > Thanks very much for your input.
> >
> > On 27/11/2019, 13:24, "Henk Birkholz" <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
> wrote:
> >> yes there are ways to deal with firmware in SWID, namely the resource
> >> type (index 19) in the set of SWID resource-collection [1] in
> >> combination with the rel type (index 40) entries.
> >>
> >> This way, you would not have to use filesystem-items, but this way is
> >> also a bit clunky and would require an informational guidance document
> >> describing how to use *SWID for that.
> >
> > That's interesting because initially I also tried to use the resource
> > type -- which looked like the less wrong among all the available types
> > in the resource collection.  However it wasn't clear to me how to
> > associate a checksum to the component, hence I went for the
> > filesystem-item.  Maybe I was just looking in the wrong place or maybe,
> > as you say, there's a magic firmware recipe that's worth documenting
> > here.
> >
> >> There are some quite smart ways to do that actually with
> >> filesystem-items, but I think it is more feasible to use a SUIT
> >> manifest here to describe everything relevant to the "firmware thingy"
> >> and then put a CoSWID into the SUIT manifest's outer wrapper [2] that
> >> then represents the rest of the semantics that is not covered by the
> >> manifest but by CoSWID. This method is fine, as the COSE envelope
> >> around the EAT will make tempering with the outer wrapper of the SUIT
> >> Manifest evident.
> >>
> >> I think that is a more elegant way to do it, actually, and the reason
> >> why issue #46 in the EAT repo proposes to define a Claim to include a
> >> SUIT Manifest in an EAT, too.
> >
> > I'll look into this, thanks for the pointer.
> >
> > Stepping back for a second and looking from the perspective of my
> > immediate requirement (i.e., "Is it possible to translate PSA's softwar=
e
> > component claim using purely EAT constructs?"), ideally I'd like to hav=
e
> > something that is expressive enough to encode my semantics (i.e.: SW
> > component name, version, signer and measurement) without being overly
> > complex.
> >
> > So my knee-jerk reaction is if that implies pulling a dependency on
> > SUIT maybe it's a bit too much?  But I confess haven't yet looked at
> > the details of your proposal nor I can claim enough SUIT-foo to really
> > grok the complexity involved.  As said, I'll have a look shortly.
> >
> > cheers!
> >
> > IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are
> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the
> contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy th=
e
> information in any medium. Thank you.
> > _______________________________________________
> > RATS mailing list
> > RATS@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>
> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are
> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the
> contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy th=
e
> information in any medium. Thank you.
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>


--=20

Best regards,
Kathleen

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Wed, Nov 27, 2019 at 12:13 PM Adri=
an Shaw &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Adrian.Shaw@arm.com">Adrian.Shaw@arm.com</a>&=
gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0=
px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">While=
 there is some synergy with the SUIT definition, I=E2=80=99m unconvinced th=
at it should be the way to express a software component metadata. Firstly, =
there are legacy systems without SUIT that would want to use EAT, and such =
a dependency would make it hard for incremental adoption. Secondly, not all=
 the data from the SUIT manifest is needed for this claim.<br></blockquote>=
<div><br></div><div>Agreed, there are other standards for software update t=
hat have been adopted and use alternate formats for manifests.=C2=A0 I like=
 the idea of SWID/CoSWID as well.</div><div><br></div><div>Best regards,</d=
iv><div>Kathleen</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px=
 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Adrian<br>
<br>
&gt; On 27 Nov 2019, at 16:59, Thomas Fossati &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Thomas.=
Fossati@arm.com" target=3D"_blank">Thomas.Fossati@arm.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br=
>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Hi Henk<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Thanks very much for your input.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On 27/11/2019, 13:24, &quot;Henk Birkholz&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=3D"_blank">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunh=
ofer.de</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt; yes there are ways to deal with firmware in SWID, namely the resou=
rce<br>
&gt;&gt; type (index 19) in the set of SWID resource-collection [1] in<br>
&gt;&gt; combination with the rel type (index 40) entries.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; This way, you would not have to use filesystem-items, but this way=
 is<br>
&gt;&gt; also a bit clunky and would require an informational guidance docu=
ment<br>
&gt;&gt; describing how to use *SWID for that.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; That&#39;s interesting because initially I also tried to use the resou=
rce<br>
&gt; type -- which looked like the less wrong among all the available types=
<br>
&gt; in the resource collection.=C2=A0 However it wasn&#39;t clear to me ho=
w to<br>
&gt; associate a checksum to the component, hence I went for the<br>
&gt; filesystem-item.=C2=A0 Maybe I was just looking in the wrong place or =
maybe,<br>
&gt; as you say, there&#39;s a magic firmware recipe that&#39;s worth docum=
enting<br>
&gt; here.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; There are some quite smart ways to do that actually with<br>
&gt;&gt; filesystem-items, but I think it is more feasible to use a SUIT<br=
>
&gt;&gt; manifest here to describe everything relevant to the &quot;firmwar=
e thingy&quot;<br>
&gt;&gt; and then put a CoSWID into the SUIT manifest&#39;s outer wrapper [=
2] that<br>
&gt;&gt; then represents the rest of the semantics that is not covered by t=
he<br>
&gt;&gt; manifest but by CoSWID. This method is fine, as the COSE envelope<=
br>
&gt;&gt; around the EAT will make tempering with the outer wrapper of the S=
UIT<br>
&gt;&gt; Manifest evident.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I think that is a more elegant way to do it, actually, and the rea=
son<br>
&gt;&gt; why issue #46 in the EAT repo proposes to define a Claim to includ=
e a<br>
&gt;&gt; SUIT Manifest in an EAT, too.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I&#39;ll look into this, thanks for the pointer.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Stepping back for a second and looking from the perspective of my<br>
&gt; immediate requirement (i.e., &quot;Is it possible to translate PSA&#39=
;s software<br>
&gt; component claim using purely EAT constructs?&quot;), ideally I&#39;d l=
ike to have<br>
&gt; something that is expressive enough to encode my semantics (i.e.: SW<b=
r>
&gt; component name, version, signer and measurement) without being overly<=
br>
&gt; complex.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; So my knee-jerk reaction is if that implies pulling a dependency on<br=
>
&gt; SUIT maybe it&#39;s a bit too much?=C2=A0 But I confess haven&#39;t ye=
t looked at<br>
&gt; the details of your proposal nor I can claim enough SUIT-foo to really=
<br>
&gt; grok the complexity involved.=C2=A0 As said, I&#39;ll have a look shor=
tly.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; cheers!<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are c=
onfidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipie=
nt, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents t=
o any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the informatio=
n in any medium. Thank you.<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; RATS mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">RATS@ietf.org</a><b=
r>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats" rel=3D"noreferr=
er" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats</a><br>
<br>
IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid=
ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p=
lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any=
 other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in =
any medium. Thank you.<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
RATS mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">RATS@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"=
 class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div>Best regards,</div><di=
v>Kathleen</div></div></div></div>

--00000000000037c82b059857a3fb--


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Subject: [Rats] [ietf-rats-wg/eat] 1a9ae3: added first pass of (Co)SWID and SUIT Manifest Claims
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  Branch: refs/heads/coswid-&-suit-mainfest-claims
  Home:   https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat
  Commit: 1a9ae3ad7a87578afac4f5c3aafb14e2c27e6562
      https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/1a9ae3ad7a87578afac4f5c3aafb14e2c27e6562
  Author: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
  Date:   2019-11-27 (Wed, 27 Nov 2019)

  Changed paths:
    M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md

  Log Message:
  -----------
  added first pass of (Co)SWID and SUIT Manifest Claims



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From: Monty Wiseman <montywiseman32@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] Two types of secure attestation
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Let's not use confusing terms like TPM-style / TCG language. I propose
we start with lower-level fundamental definitions or even axioms for
boot types. Within those definitions, I recommend deprecating the term
"Secure Boot" as it's imprecise and even misleading. I expect there to
be variations on these creating derivative definitions but I postulate
these are fundamental as basic building blocks.

Root of Trust: Something that is assumed to always operate in the
expected manner. The implementation is assumed to be correct. How it is
implemented it outside the scope of its definition.

Verified Boot: Starts with a Root of Trust. For this type of boot the
Root of Trust is the Root of Trust for Verification (RTV). The RTV
includes a boot policy which is likely a verification key. The RTV
enforces the boot policy which continues through the boot process
assuming each component continues enforcing the boot policy or other
policies authorized by the RTV's boot policy. The trust in the device
depends on the RTV's boot policy and not on any external entity such as a
Verifier. The boot policy is locked by the RTV and cannot be further
evaluated beyond a binary "Trusted" or "Not Trusted" state. The evidence
of whether this device is trusted is, therefore, determined by whether
it boot to the correct state. (Some would say this is "existential boot.)

The TPM has no dependency on Verified Boot and Verified boot has no
architectural dependence on the TPM.

Measured Boot: Starts with the Root of Trust. For this type of boot it
is the Root of Trust for Measurement (RTM). The RTM contains no boot
policy. The device's components are recorded and stored through the boot
process as each component is assumed to continue measurement process. At
some time during the boot process these measurements are converted to
evidence and send to a Verifier. The trust in the device depends on a
Verifier's evaluation of this evidence. The Verifier has a rich set of
policy options available it beyond a binary "Trusted" or "Not Trusted"
state. The type of boot depends on a trusted component (such as a TPM)
record and converted the measurements into evidence.

Summary:
The difference between Verified Boot and Measured boot is where the
policy is enforced.

Verified Boot:
       1> Policy is hard coded at boot time, is immutable, and binary.
       (This form of boot is "existential" -- The device either boots to
       a valid state, or not)

       2> Is simpler to implement but less flexible

Measured Boot:
       1> The trust state is determined by a Verifier using evidence
       about the device and a flexible set of policies.

       2> Is more complex to implement but more flexible.

Diagram:

Verified Boot===>

     Policy

     |

     V

     RTV --- Component --- Component --- Component --- End State:

     A trusted device state is created only if all policies were met
     (i.e, the device booted). If any policy was not met, the device (as
     it is expected) doesn't really exist (it appears as a different
     device)

Measured Boot===>

Policy

                                                                |

                                                                V

     RTM --- Component --- Component --- Component --- End State:

    Trust State determined by a Verifier by appraising evidence collected
    using a set of policies.

Monty

Disclaimer: This is my personal opinion and not that of my employeer or
the Trusted Ccomputing Group. While I co-chair TCG's Trusted Network
Connect and Infrastructure Working Groups, the above defintions have
not been officially adopted by the TCG's Technical Committee or Board of
Directors.

On 11/24/19 3:01 PM, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>
>
>> On Nov 24, 2019, at 7:31 AM, Henk Birkholz 
>> <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de 
>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> in a nutshell, one of the things I tried to express is that the 
>> following quite is simply not correct wrt to what is called here the 
>> "TPM-style" (I would really like to not use the words "TPM-style" and 
>> not to mixing authenticated & secure boot. Authenticated Boot is fine):
>> > Primarily the difference between TPM-style that doesn’t rely on 
>> secure boot and non-TPM-style that does rely on secure boot.
>
> It’s hard to know what to call things. I’m learning the “TCG language” 
> slowly and we’re also evolving (in the architecture document) a common 
> language. I keep trying terms and definitions to see what sticks and 
> what doesn’t. Pretty sure we agree on “attestation evidence”, 
> “verifier” and “attestation result”, but I don’t know what “secure 
> boot”, “authenticated boot” and “trusted boot” mean to you so I don’t 
> know which term to use.
>
>>
>> It is never possible to create TPM structures that are signed 
>> Attestation Evidence, if a device that is explicitly intended to 
>> conduct "secure boot" did actually not do so successfully. That is 
>> one of the key-features of TPM/TSS remote attestation procedures.
>
> It seems to me that TPM-style attestation where you measure each step 
> in the boot sequence and report to a verifier was designed to work 
> without secure boot. However I can see that it could also work with 
> secure / trusted / authenticated boot.
>
>
>>
>> On the other hand, what leaves me puzzled is the following. If these 
>> three quotes are all correct...
>>
>>> You cannot create an EAT unless the authenticated boot was 
>>> successful. The key material with which to sign the EAT is 
>>> inaccessible if authenticated boot fails (or else the device just 
>>> won’t boot at all).
>>
>> draft-ietf-rats-eat-01:
>>
>>> All claims are optional
>>
>> and draft-ietf-rats-eat-01 again:
>>
>>> 3.7.  Secure Boot and Debug Enable State Claims (boot_state)
>>>   This claim is an array of five Boolean values indicating the boot and
>>>   debug state of the entity.
>>
>> ... one is allowed either to omit that Claim in an EAT or set some 
>> values of the Claim members to false. Therefore indicating that the 
>> boot state is, e.g. "secure_boot_enabled=> false", and still be able 
>> to create the EAT. Is that correct? If not, why include this member 
>> of the boot_state Claim at all? It always made me think until now 
>> that it allows for a device to not conduct "secure boot" and still be 
>> able to create an EAT.
>
> Yes, you are right that in some cases it would make no sense to have 
> the secure boot claim. It is basically an implicit claim. Here’s some 
> where it does make sense to have an explicit secure boot claim.
>
>     The main attester might boot securely, but submods might not.
>
>     It is possible to build pure HW that implements EAT attestation.
>     It might be a part of a SoC. That attestation HW doesn’t use the
>     main CPU to implement the attester, but can report on how the main
>     CPU booted.
>
>
>
>>
>> Besides that, what I think we are actually talking about is implicit 
>> and explicit attestation.
>
> Seems like you have to say which claims are implicit and which claims 
> are explicit and in many attestations you need and get both.
>
> For example, you called out a situation where the secure boot claim is 
> implicit and questioned the need for the claim. I then called out a 
> situation where the secure boot claim is explicit.
>
> In one attestation the secure boot claim might be implicit and the GPS 
> location is explicit.
>
> LL
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats

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    <p><tt>Let's not use confusing terms like TPM-style / TCG language.
        I propose<br>
        we start with lower-level fundamental definitions or even axioms
        for<br>
        boot types. Within those definitions, I recommend deprecating
        the term<br>
        "Secure Boot" as it's imprecise and even misleading. I expect
        there to<br>
        be variations on these creating derivative definitions but I
        postulate<br>
        these are fundamental as basic building blocks.<br>
        <br>
        Root of Trust: Something that is assumed to always operate in
        the<br>
        expected manner. The implementation is assumed to be correct.
        How it is<br>
        implemented it outside the scope of its definition.<br>
        <br>
        Verified Boot: Starts with a Root of Trust. For this type of
        boot the<br>
        Root of Trust is the Root of Trust for Verification (RTV). The
        RTV<br>
        includes a boot policy which is likely a verification key. The
        RTV<br>
        enforces the boot policy which continues through the boot
        process<br>
        assuming each component continues enforcing the boot policy or
        other<br>
        policies authorized by the RTV's boot policy. The trust in the
        device<br>
        depends on the RTV's boot policy and not on any external entity
        such as a<br>
        Verifier. The boot policy is locked by the RTV and cannot be
        further<br>
        evaluated beyond a binary "Trusted" or "Not Trusted" state. The
        evidence<br>
        of whether this device is trusted is, therefore, determined by
        whether<br>
        it boot to the correct state. (Some would say this is
        "existential boot.)<br>
        <br>
        The TPM has no dependency on Verified Boot and Verified boot has
        no<br>
        architectural dependence on the TPM.<br>
        <br>
        Measured Boot: Starts with the Root of Trust. For this type of
        boot it<br>
        is the Root of Trust for Measurement (RTM). The RTM contains no
        boot<br>
        policy. The device's components are recorded and stored through
        the boot<br>
        process as each component is assumed to continue measurement
        process. At<br>
        some time during the boot process these measurements are
        converted to<br>
        evidence and send to a Verifier. The trust in the device depends
        on a<br>
        Verifier's evaluation of this evidence. The Verifier has a rich
        set of<br>
        policy options available it beyond a binary "Trusted" or "Not
        Trusted"<br>
        state. The type of boot depends on a trusted component (such as
        a TPM)<br>
        record and converted the measurements into evidence.<br>
        <br>
        Summary:<br>
        The difference between Verified Boot and Measured boot is where
        the<br>
        policy is enforced.<br>
        <br>
        Verified Boot:<br>
              1&gt; Policy is hard coded at boot time, is immutable, and
        binary.<br>
              (This form of boot is "existential" -- The device either
        boots to<br>
              a valid state, or not)<br>
        <br>
              2&gt; Is simpler to implement but less flexible<br>
        <br>
        Measured Boot:<br>
              1&gt; The trust state is determined by a Verifier using
        evidence<br>
              about the device and a flexible set of policies.<br>
        <br>
              2&gt; Is more complex to implement but more flexible.<br>
        <br>
        Diagram:<br>
        <br>
        Verified Boot===&gt;<br>
        <br>
            Policy<br>
        <br>
            |<br>
        <br>
            V<br>
        <br>
            RTV --- Component --- Component --- Component --- End State:<br>
        <br>
            A trusted device state is created only if all policies were
        met<br>
            (i.e, the device booted). If any policy was not met, the
        device (as<br>
            it is expected) doesn't really exist (it appears as a
        different<br>
            device)<br>
        <br>
        Measured Boot===&gt;<br>
        <br>
                                                                   
        Policy<br>
        <br>
                                                                       |<br>
        <br>
                                                                       V<br>
        <br>
            RTM --- Component --- Component --- Component --- End State:<br>
        <br>
           Trust State determined by a Verifier by appraising evidence
        collected <br>
           using a set of policies.<br>
        <br>
        Monty<br>
      </tt></p>
    <p><tt>Disclaimer: This is my personal opinion and not that of my
        employeer or<br>
        the Trusted Ccomputing Group. While I co-chair TCG's Trusted
        Network<br>
        Connect and Infrastructure Working Groups, the above defintions
        have<br>
        not been officially adopted by the TCG's Technical Committee or
        Board of<br>
        Directors.<br>
      </tt><br>
    </p>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/24/19 3:01 PM, Laurence Lundblade
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
      cite="mid:F74104BF-35C6-4375-A5A0-93FFA34619B6@island-resort.com">
      <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
      <br class="">
      <div><br class="">
        <blockquote type="cite" class="">
          <div class="">On Nov 24, 2019, at 7:31 AM, Henk Birkholz &lt;<a
              href="mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" class=""
              moz-do-not-send="true">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;
            wrote:</div>
          <br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
          <div class="">
            <div class="">Hi all,<br class="">
              <br class="">
              in a nutshell, one of the things I tried to express is
              that the following quite is simply not correct wrt to what
              is called here the "TPM-style" (I would really like to not
              use the words "TPM-style" and not to mixing authenticated
              &amp; secure boot. Authenticated Boot is fine):<br
                class="">
              &gt; Primarily the difference between TPM-style that
              doesn’t rely on secure boot and non-TPM-style that does
              rely on secure boot.<br class="">
            </div>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <div><br class="">
        </div>
        <div>It’s hard to know what to call things. I’m learning the
          “TCG language” slowly and we’re also evolving (in the
          architecture document) a common language. I keep trying terms
          and definitions to see what sticks and what doesn’t. Pretty
          sure we agree on “attestation evidence”, “verifier” and
          “attestation result”, but I don’t know what “secure boot”,
          “authenticated boot” and “trusted boot” mean to you so I don’t
          know which term to use.</div>
        <br class="">
        <blockquote type="cite" class="">
          <div class="">
            <div class=""><br class="">
              It is never possible to create TPM structures that are
              signed Attestation Evidence, if a device that is
              explicitly intended to conduct "secure boot" did actually
              not do so successfully. That is one of the key-features of
              TPM/TSS remote attestation procedures.<br class="">
            </div>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <div><br class="">
        </div>
        <div>It seems to me that TPM-style attestation where you measure
          each step in the boot sequence and report to a verifier was
          designed to work without secure boot. However I can see that
          it could also work with secure / trusted / authenticated boot.</div>
        <div><br class="">
        </div>
        <div><br class="">
        </div>
        <blockquote type="cite" class="">
          <div class="">
            <div class=""><br class="">
              On the other hand, what leaves me puzzled is the
              following. If these three quotes are all correct...<br
                class="">
              <br class="">
              <blockquote type="cite" class="">You cannot create an EAT
                unless the authenticated boot was successful. The key
                material with which to sign the EAT is inaccessible if
                authenticated boot fails (or else the device just won’t
                boot at all).<br class="">
              </blockquote>
              <br class="">
              draft-ietf-rats-eat-01:<br class="">
              <br class="">
              <blockquote type="cite" class="">All claims are optional<br
                  class="">
              </blockquote>
              <br class="">
              and draft-ietf-rats-eat-01 again:<br class="">
              <br class="">
              <blockquote type="cite" class="">3.7.  Secure Boot and
                Debug Enable State Claims (boot_state)<br class="">
                  This claim is an array of five Boolean values
                indicating the boot and<br class="">
                  debug state of the entity.<br class="">
              </blockquote>
              <br class="">
              ... one is allowed either to omit that Claim in an EAT or
              set some values of the Claim members to false. Therefore
              indicating that the boot state is, e.g.
              "secure_boot_enabled=&gt; false", and still be able to
              create the EAT. Is that correct? If not, why include this
              member of the boot_state Claim at all? It always made me
              think until now that it allows for a device to not conduct
              "secure boot" and still be able to create an EAT.<br
                class="">
            </div>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <div><br class="">
        </div>
        <div>Yes, you are right that in some cases it would make no
          sense to have the secure boot claim. It is basically an
          implicit claim. Here’s some where it does make sense to have
          an explicit secure boot claim.</div>
        <div><br class="">
        </div>
      </div>
      <blockquote style="margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding:
        0px;" class="">
        <div>
          <div>The main attester might boot securely, but submods might
            not.</div>
        </div>
        <div>
          <div><br class="">
          </div>
        </div>
        <div>
          <div>It is possible to build pure HW that implements EAT
            attestation. It might be a part of a SoC. That attestation
            HW doesn’t use the main CPU to implement the attester, but
            can report on how the main CPU booted.</div>
        </div>
      </blockquote>
      <div>
        <div><br class="">
        </div>
        <div><br class="">
        </div>
        <blockquote type="cite" class="">
          <div class="">
            <div class=""><br class="">
              Besides that, what I think we are actually talking about
              is implicit and explicit attestation.<br class="">
            </div>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <div><br class="">
        </div>
        <div>Seems like you have to say which claims are implicit and
          which claims are explicit and in many attestations you need
          and get both.</div>
        <div><br class="">
        </div>
        <div>For example, you called out a situation where the secure
          boot claim is implicit and questioned the need for the claim.
          I then called out a situation where the secure boot claim is
          explicit. </div>
        <div><br class="">
        </div>
        <div>In one attestation the secure boot claim might be implicit
          and the GPS location is explicit.</div>
        <div><br class="">
        </div>
        <div>LL</div>
        <div><br class="">
        </div>
      </div>
      <br class="">
      <br>
      <fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">_______________________________________________
RATS mailing list
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:RATS@ietf.org">RATS@ietf.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
  </body>
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--------------E54CCE35BD6A763A3CD5C48B--


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  Branch: refs/heads/cddl-fixes
  Home:   https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat
  Commit: bdf9c79e064a43f92384509cdad1e699f542ef22
      https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/bdf9c79e064a43f92384509cdad1e699f542ef22
  Author: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
  Date:   2019-11-27 (Wed, 27 Nov 2019)

  Changed paths:
    M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md

  Log Message:
  -----------
  first pass on fixing CDDL specification fragments to resemble a data model for EAT (inital focus on CWT)



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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] [EXTERNAL] Re:  EAT IANA registry
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/xuORAEQI-mT43kI53satqBlMIxE>
Subject: Re: [Rats] [EXTERNAL] Re:  EAT IANA registry
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Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2019 23:27:18 +0200
From: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
To: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
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Thread-Topic: [Rats] [EXTERNAL] Re:  EAT IANA registry
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EXTERNAL] Re:  EAT IANA registry
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Hi Mike,

=20

To me this is a perfect counter-example: it is so generic as to be non-reus=
able. When used in an attestation, the verifier will want to have well defin=
ed syntax and semantics for what is attested, in this case a certain transac=
tion. Here we don=E2=80=99t know what kind of a transaction this is (semantics) an=
d how to interpret the transaction identifier (syntax).

=20

If some particular environment wants to define claims for a particular, pri=
vate kind of transaction, let=E2=80=99s make it easy for them to define their own,=
 very specific foobar-transaction.

=20

Thanks,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Yaron

=20

From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
Date: Wednesday, November 27, 2019 at 23:04
To: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-r=
esort.com>, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
Cc: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@a=
rm.com>
Subject: RE: [Rats] [EXTERNAL] Re: EAT IANA registry

=20

The point of having a common JWT Claims registry is to enable future specif=
ications to benefit from reusing applicable claims registered by past specif=
ications.  For instance, the Security Event Token [RFC 8417] specification r=
ecently registered this general-purpose claim:

   o  Claim Name: "txn"

   o  Claim Description: Transaction Identifier

   o  Change Controller: IESG

   o  Specification Document(s): Section 2.2 of [RFC8417]

=20

That made it available to EAT and other future specifications using JWTs.  =
If it had instead put it into its own registry, the potential for reuse woul=
d have been lost.

=20

Let=E2=80=99s likewise let future specs benefit from EAT-defined claims by puttin=
g them in the normal IANA JWT Claims registry.

=20

                                                       -- Mike

=20

From: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>=20
Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2019 7:54 AM
To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>; Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.e=
du>
Cc: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>; rats@ietf.org; Hannes Tschofe=
nig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
Subject: Re: [Rats] [EXTERNAL] Re: EAT IANA registry

=20

To put it into perspective, there are already 57 claims registered [1]. So =
even if 7 claims overlap, this is a relatively *small* number. IMO there is =
high value in a separate namespace for EAT claims, and the standard way to c=
reate such a namespace in JSON is exactly as Ben is proposing.

=20

Thanks,

                Yaron

=20

[1] https://www.iana.org/assignments/jwt/jwt.xhtml

=20

From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
Date: Wednesday, November 27, 2019 at 06:39
To: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
Cc: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Yaron Sheffe=
r <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Hannes Tschofeni=
g <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
Subject: Re: [Rats] [EXTERNAL] Re: EAT IANA registry

=20

=20

On Nov 26, 2019, at 7:19 PM, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> wrote:

=20

...but I'm not sure that "avoiding duplicates"
would apply to a proposal that makes a single JWT/CWT claim for "EAT data"
and puts the attestation claims in a map as the value for that "EAT data"
claim.  What existing JWT/CWT claims would duplicate the potential contents
of the EAT data fields?

=20

That is an interesting thought =E2=80=94 put all of EAT into one JWT/CWT claim th=
at is a map. Other=E2=80=99s have mentioned it to me. It would let EAT re use the =
most compact integer CBOR integer labels.

=20

Right now we re use the following claims from JWT or CWT by normative refer=
ence:

- nonce

- Token ID cti/jti

- Time stamp (iat)

=20

Also these JWT or CWT seem either likely or possible use in EAT:

- cnf (proof of possession of key)

- iss Issuer

- expiration

- not before

=20

That=E2=80=99s a fairly large overlap which makes me disinclined to putting all o=
f EAT into one map that is one JWT/CWT claim, separating EAT claims from CWT=
/JWT claims.

=20

I=E2=80=99m no OAuth expert, but I wonder if some of the EAT claims might be usef=
ul for other than EAT tokens, another reason not to keep them separate.

=20

I suspect we=E2=80=99re going to find at least one more use for a signed map of l=
abel-value pairs in the next few years that would be able to re use at least=
 some of these claims =E2=80=94 another reason to keep them in the same space.

=20

LL

=20

=20

=20

=20

=20

=20


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--></style></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSe=
ction1><p class=3DMsoNormal>Hi Mike,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nb=
sp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>To me this is a perfect counter-example: it =
is so generic as to be non-reusable. When used in an attestation, the verifi=
er will want to have well defined syntax and semantics for what is attested,=
 in this case a certain transaction. Here we don=E2=80=99t know what kind of a tra=
nsaction this is (semantics) and how to interpret the transaction identifier=
 (syntax).<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMs=
oNormal>If some particular environment wants to define claims for a particul=
ar, private kind of transaction, let=E2=80=99s make it easy for them to define the=
ir own, very specific foobar-transaction.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><=
o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Yaron<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><o=
:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;pa=
dding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt=
;color:black'>From: </span></b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Mi=
ke Jones &lt;Michael.Jones@microsoft.com&gt;<br><b>Date: </b>Wednesday, Nove=
mber 27, 2019 at 23:04<br><b>To: </b>Yaron Sheffer &lt;yaronf.ietf@gmail.com=
&gt;, Laurence Lundblade &lt;lgl@island-resort.com&gt;, Benjamin Kaduk &lt;k=
aduk@mit.edu&gt;<br><b>Cc: </b>&quot;rats@ietf.org&quot; &lt;rats@ietf.org&g=
t;, Hannes Tschofenig &lt;Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com&gt;<br><b>Subject: </b>R=
E: [Rats] [EXTERNAL] Re: EAT IANA registry<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><=
p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D=
'color:#002060'>The point of having a common JWT Claims registry is to enabl=
e future specifications to benefit from reusing applicable claims registered=
 by past specifications.&nbsp; For instance, the Security Event Token [<a hr=
ef=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8417">RFC 8417</a>] specification recentl=
y registered this general-purpose claim:</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNo=
rmal><span style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:black;background:white'>&nbsp;&=
nbsp; o&nbsp; Claim Name: &quot;txn&quot;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal><span style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:black;background:white'>&nbsp;=
&nbsp; o&nbsp; Claim Description: Transaction Identifier</span><o:p></o:p></=
p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:black;backgroun=
d:white'>&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; Change Controller: IESG</span><o:p></o:p></p><=
p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:Consolas;color:black;background:w=
hite'>&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; Specification Document(s): </span><a href=3D"https:=
//tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8417#section-2.2"><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;fon=
t-family:Consolas;color:#0066CC'>Section&nbsp;2.2 of [RFC8417]</span></a><o:=
p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#002060'>&nbsp;</span><o:p=
></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#002060'>That made it avail=
able to EAT and other future specifications using JWTs.&nbsp; If it had inst=
ead put it into its own registry, the potential for reuse would have been lo=
st.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#002060'>&nbs=
p;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#002060'>Let=E2=80=
=99s likewise let future specs benefit from EAT-defined claims by putting them=
 in the normal IANA JWT Claims registry.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNo=
rmal><span style=3D'color:#002060'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal><span style=3D'color:#002060'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</span><o:p></o:=
p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'color:#002060'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p=
></p><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0=
pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>From:</b> Yaron Sheffer &lt;yaronf.iet=
f@gmail.com&gt; <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 27, 2019 7:54 AM<br><b>=
To:</b> Laurence Lundblade &lt;lgl@island-resort.com&gt;; Benjamin Kaduk &lt=
;kaduk@mit.edu&gt;<br><b>Cc:</b> Mike Jones &lt;Michael.Jones@microsoft.com&=
gt;; rats@ietf.org; Hannes Tschofenig &lt;Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com&gt;<br><=
b>Subject:</b> Re: [Rats] [EXTERNAL] Re: EAT IANA registry<o:p></o:p></p></d=
iv></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>To put i=
t into perspective, there are already 57 claims registered [1]. So even if 7=
 claims overlap, this is a relatively *<b>small</b>* number. IMO there is hi=
gh value in a separate namespace for EAT claims, and the standard way to cre=
ate such a namespace in JSON is exactly as Ben is proposing.<o:p></o:p></p><=
p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks,<o:p></o:p>=
</p><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Yaron<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal=
>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>[1] <a href=3D"https://www.iana.org/a=
ssignments/jwt/jwt.xhtml">https://www.iana.org/assignments/jwt/jwt.xhtml</a>=
<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><div style=3D'border:no=
ne;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal><b><span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>From: </span></b><span sty=
le=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:black'>Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lgl=
@island-resort.com">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Date: </b>Wednesday,=
 November 27, 2019 at 06:39<br><b>To: </b>Benjamin Kaduk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:kaduk@mit.edu">kaduk@mit.edu</a>&gt;<br><b>Cc: </b>Mike Jones &lt;<a href=3D"=
mailto:Michael.Jones=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org">Michael.Jones=3D40microso=
ft.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;, Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf=
@gmail.com">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;, &quot;<a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.o=
rg">rats@ietf.org</a>&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org">rats@ietf.org=
</a>&gt;, Hannes Tschofenig &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com">H=
annes.Tschofenig@arm.com</a>&gt;<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: [Rats] [EXTERNAL] Re=
: EAT IANA registry</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp=
;<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><div><blockquo=
te style=3D'margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On N=
ov 26, 2019, at 7:19 PM, Benjamin Kaduk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kaduk@mit.edu">k=
aduk@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:=
p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family=
:Helvetica'>...but I'm not sure that &quot;avoiding duplicates&quot;<br>woul=
d apply to a proposal that makes a single JWT/CWT claim for &quot;EAT data&q=
uot;<br>and puts the attestation claims in a map as the value for that &quot=
;EAT data&quot;<br>claim. &nbsp;What existing JWT/CWT claims would duplicate=
 the potential contents<br>of the EAT data fields?</span><o:p></o:p></p></di=
v></blockquote></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DM=
soNormal>That is an interesting thought =E2=80=94 put all of EAT into one JWT/CWT =
claim that is a map. Other=E2=80=99s have mentioned it to me. It would let EAT re =
use the most compact integer CBOR integer labels.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><=
p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Right n=
ow we re use the following claims from JWT or CWT by normative reference:<o:=
p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>- nonce<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><=
p class=3DMsoNormal>- Token ID cti/jti<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNo=
rmal>- Time stamp (iat)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o=
:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Also these JWT or CWT seem either=
 likely or possible use in EAT:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>=
- cnf (proof of possession of key)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNorm=
al>- iss Issuer<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>- expiration<o:p=
></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>- not before<o:p></o:p></p></div><d=
iv><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Tha=
t=E2=80=99s a fairly large overlap which makes me disinclined to putting all of EA=
T into one map that is one JWT/CWT claim, separating EAT claims from CWT/JWT=
 claims.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></=
div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I=E2=80=99m no OAuth expert, but I wonder if some of t=
he EAT claims might be useful for other than EAT tokens, another reason not =
to keep them separate.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:=
p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>I suspect we=E2=80=99re going to find at=
 least one more use for a signed map of label-value pairs in the next few ye=
ars that would be able to re use at least some of these claims =E2=80=94 another r=
eason to keep them in the same space.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoN=
ormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>LL<o:p></o:p></p></=
div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNorm=
al>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p><=
/div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>=
</div></div></body></html>

--B_3657742039_1079765013--



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From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>
To: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
CC: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] [EXTERNAL] Re:  EAT IANA registry
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Subject: [Rats] [ietf-rats-wg/eat] bdb24b: first attempt at fixing the CirclCI issues (and ap...
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  Branch: refs/heads/master
  Home:   https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat
  Commit: bdb24b4b85f06781b66f92d6c458e489d39cd8ab
      https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/bdb24b4b85f06781b66f92d6c458e489d39cd8ab
  Author: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
  Date:   2019-11-27 (Wed, 27 Nov 2019)

  Changed paths:
    M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md

  Log Message:
  -----------
  first attempt at fixing the CirclCI issues (and apparently xml2rfc) that creates an Error: Expected <date> attribute "year" to be an integer, but found "n.d."



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Subject: [Rats] [ietf-rats-wg/eat] c87ec6: Script updating gh-pages from bdb24b4. [ci skip]
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  Branch: refs/heads/gh-pages
  Home:   https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat
  Commit: c87ec69af195dbb36b98b1c819490e2399d7af79
      https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/c87ec69af195dbb36b98b1c819490e2399d7af79
  Author: ID Bot <idbot@example.com>
  Date:   2019-11-27 (Wed, 27 Nov 2019)

  Changed paths:
    M draft-ietf-rats-eat.html
    M draft-ietf-rats-eat.txt
    M index.html

  Log Message:
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  Script updating gh-pages from bdb24b4. [ci skip]



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  Branch: refs/heads/coswid-&-suit-mainfest-claims
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  Branch: refs/heads/cddl-fixes
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  Branch: refs/heads/256bitUEID
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  Date:   2019-11-27 (Wed, 27 Nov 2019)

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Cc: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>,  "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>, Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>
To: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>
References: <D2CF9D31-057E-4B47-A3D0-08BBBF997F47@gmail.com> <VI1PR08MB53605A2A2E61E6EAE2609FECFA490@VI1PR08MB5360.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com> <09C4F36B-C9CE-44DF-9DF8-F3365A7E3053@gmail.com> <53C13986-A523-4349-BDC3-F8ACC2BCFD29@island-resort.com> <DM6PR00MB05697456BC04AC34B156850DF54B0@DM6PR00MB0569.namprd00.prod.outlook.com> <20191127031910.GF32847@mit.edu> <CFF55BD3-66F8-485A-9AF5-1DD38B5F444C@island-resort.com> <ECA98A18-0E4B-4C51-AFE4-FB84E61AC809@gmail.com> <MN2PR00MB057424C20F7549E74C4590B8F5440@MN2PR00MB0574.namprd00.prod.outlook.com> <28117100-32D0-40D2-81B8-89D1345B34FF@gmail.com>
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/mzj_i9b5Mgrf1POqanRT8k0gkLI>
Subject: Re: [Rats] [EXTERNAL] Re:  EAT IANA registry
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A separate EAT registry doesn=E2=80=99t seem like it will solve the =
issues being brought up.

You=E2=80=99re still going to have the problem of people registering all =
sorts of things like they have for JWT unless you put in place some more =
stringent rules about expert review and such. JWT already the most =
stringent qualification common in the IETF for a new claim short of =
standards action. (CWT seems not to be widely used yet so it has less =
than 10 claims, most of which overlap with EAT.)

You=E2=80=99re still going to have very specific things like the =
foobar-transaction that are not general purpose. A separate EAT registry =
doesn=E2=80=99t solve that.

Some sort of profile / context seems highly likely to be necessary to =
narrow EAT when applied to specific use cases. That seems to be the =
place to address these concerns. Here=E2=80=99s some profiles I can =
imagine.
   - FIDO Alliance defines how EAT is integrated into FIDO with a =
FIDO-specific document, probably published outside the IETF
   - Android keystore documentation says how EAT fields apply to Android =
attestation
   - ARM and Qualcomm have already published their PSA attestation as =
IETF drafts
   - I hear rumors that Global Platform might have their TEE-related set

LL


> On Nov 27, 2019, at 1:27 PM, Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> Hi Mike,
> =20
> To me this is a perfect counter-example: it is so generic as to be =
non-reusable. When used in an attestation, the verifier will want to =
have well defined syntax and semantics for what is attested, in this =
case a certain transaction. Here we don=E2=80=99t know what kind of a =
transaction this is (semantics) and how to interpret the transaction =
identifier (syntax).
> =20
> If some particular environment wants to define claims for a =
particular, private kind of transaction, let=E2=80=99s make it easy for =
them to define their own, very specific foobar-transaction.
> =20
> Thanks,
>                 Yaron
> =20
> From: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>
> Date: Wednesday, November 27, 2019 at 23:04
> To: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com =
<mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>>, Laurence Lundblade =
<lgl@island-resort.com <mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>>, Benjamin Kaduk =
<kaduk@mit.edu <mailto:kaduk@mit.edu>>
> Cc: "rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org>" <rats@ietf.org =
<mailto:rats@ietf.org>>, Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com =
<mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>>
> Subject: RE: [Rats] [EXTERNAL] Re: EAT IANA registry
> =20
> The point of having a common JWT Claims registry is to enable future =
specifications to benefit from reusing applicable claims registered by =
past specifications.  For instance, the Security Event Token [RFC 8417 =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8417>] specification recently registered =
this general-purpose claim:
>    o  Claim Name: "txn"
>    o  Claim Description: Transaction Identifier
>    o  Change Controller: IESG
>    o  Specification Document(s): Section=C2=A02.2 of [RFC8417] =
<https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8417#section-2.2>
> =20
> That made it available to EAT and other future specifications using =
JWTs.  If it had instead put it into its own registry, the potential for =
reuse would have been lost.
> =20
> Let=E2=80=99s likewise let future specs benefit from EAT-defined =
claims by putting them in the normal IANA JWT Claims registry.
> =20
>                                                        -- Mike
> =20
> From: Yaron Sheffer <yaronf.ietf@gmail.com =
<mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>>=20
> Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2019 7:54 AM
> To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com =
<mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>>; Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu =
<mailto:kaduk@mit.edu>>
> Cc: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones@microsoft.com =
<mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com>>; rats@ietf.org =
<mailto:rats@ietf.org>; Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com =
<mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>>
> Subject: Re: [Rats] [EXTERNAL] Re: EAT IANA registry
> =20
> To put it into perspective, there are already 57 claims registered =
[1]. So even if 7 claims overlap, this is a relatively *small* number. =
IMO there is high value in a separate namespace for EAT claims, and the =
standard way to create such a namespace in JSON is exactly as Ben is =
proposing.
> =20
> Thanks,
>                 Yaron
> =20
> [1] https://www.iana.org/assignments/jwt/jwt.xhtml =
<https://www.iana.org/assignments/jwt/jwt.xhtml>
> =20
> From: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com =
<mailto:lgl@island-resort.com>>
> Date: Wednesday, November 27, 2019 at 06:39
> To: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu <mailto:kaduk@mit.edu>>
> Cc: Mike Jones <Michael.Jones=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org =
<mailto:Michael.Jones=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org>>, Yaron Sheffer =
<yaronf.ietf@gmail.com <mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com>>, "rats@ietf.org =
<mailto:rats@ietf.org>" <rats@ietf.org <mailto:rats@ietf.org>>, Hannes =
Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com =
<mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>>
> Subject: Re: [Rats] [EXTERNAL] Re: EAT IANA registry
> =20
> =20
>> On Nov 26, 2019, at 7:19 PM, Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu =
<mailto:kaduk@mit.edu>> wrote:
>> =20
>> ...but I'm not sure that "avoiding duplicates"
>> would apply to a proposal that makes a single JWT/CWT claim for "EAT =
data"
>> and puts the attestation claims in a map as the value for that "EAT =
data"
>> claim.  What existing JWT/CWT claims would duplicate the potential =
contents
>> of the EAT data fields?
>=20
> =20
> That is an interesting thought =E2=80=94 put all of EAT into one =
JWT/CWT claim that is a map. Other=E2=80=99s have mentioned it to me. It =
would let EAT re use the most compact integer CBOR integer labels.
> =20
> Right now we re use the following claims from JWT or CWT by normative =
reference:
> - nonce
> - Token ID cti/jti
> - Time stamp (iat)
> =20
> Also these JWT or CWT seem either likely or possible use in EAT:
> - cnf (proof of possession of key)
> - iss Issuer
> - expiration
> - not before
> =20
> That=E2=80=99s a fairly large overlap which makes me disinclined to =
putting all of EAT into one map that is one JWT/CWT claim, separating =
EAT claims from CWT/JWT claims.
> =20
> I=E2=80=99m no OAuth expert, but I wonder if some of the EAT claims =
might be useful for other than EAT tokens, another reason not to keep =
them separate.
> =20
> I suspect we=E2=80=99re going to find at least one more use for a =
signed map of label-value pairs in the next few years that would be able =
to re use at least some of these claims =E2=80=94 another reason to keep =
them in the same space.
> =20
> LL
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats>

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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" =
class=3D""><div>A separate EAT registry doesn=E2=80=99t seem like it =
will solve the issues being brought up.</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>You=E2=80=99re still going to have the problem of =
people registering all sorts of things like they have for JWT unless you =
put in place some more stringent rules about expert review and such. JWT =
already the most stringent qualification common in the IETF for a new =
claim short of standards action. (CWT seems not to be widely used yet so =
it has less than 10 claims, most of which overlap with =
EAT.)</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>You=E2=80=99re still going to =
have very specific things like the foobar-transaction that are not =
general purpose. A separate EAT registry doesn=E2=80=99t solve =
that.</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div>Some sort of profile / context =
seems highly likely to be necessary to narrow EAT when applied to =
specific use cases. That seems to be the place to address these =
concerns. Here=E2=80=99s some profiles I can imagine.</div><div>&nbsp; =
&nbsp;- FIDO Alliance defines how EAT is integrated into FIDO with a =
FIDO-specific document, probably published outside the =
IETF</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp;- Android keystore documentation says how =
EAT fields apply to Android attestation</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp;- ARM and =
Qualcomm have already published their PSA attestation as IETF =
drafts</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp;- I hear rumors that Global Platform might =
have their TEE-related set</div><div><br =
class=3D""></div><div>LL</div><div><br class=3D""></div><div><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Nov =
27, 2019, at 1:27 PM, Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, =
0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
text-decoration: none;"><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Hi =
Mike,<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">To me =
this is a perfect counter-example: it is so generic as to be =
non-reusable. When used in an attestation, the verifier will want to =
have well defined syntax and semantics for what is attested, in this =
case a certain transaction. Here we don=E2=80=99t know what kind of a =
transaction this is (semantics) and how to interpret the transaction =
identifier (syntax).<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">If some particular environment wants to define claims for a =
particular, private kind of transaction, let=E2=80=99s make it easy for =
them to define their own, very specific foobar-transaction.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Thanks,<o:p=
 class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Yaron<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div><div =
style=3D"border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; =
border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Date:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Wednesday, November 27, =
2019 at 23:04<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;, =
Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt;, Benjamin Kaduk &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:kaduk@mit.edu" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">kaduk@mit.edu</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>"<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">rats@ietf.org</a>" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">rats@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Hannes Tschofenig &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>RE: [Rats] [EXTERNAL] =
Re: EAT IANA registry<o:p class=3D""></o:p></span></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><o:p =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">The point =
of having a common JWT Claims registry is to enable future =
specifications to benefit from reusing applicable claims registered by =
past specifications.&nbsp; For instance, the Security Event Token [<a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8417" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">RFC 8417</a>] specification =
recently registered this general-purpose claim:</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Consolas; background-color: white;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; Claim Name: "txn"</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"font-family: Consolas; background-color: white;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; Claim Description: Transaction =
Identifier</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Consolas; background-color: =
white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; Change Controller: =
IESG</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-family: Consolas; background-color: =
white;" class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp; o&nbsp; Specification Document(s):<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><a =
href=3D"https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8417#section-2.2" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Consolas; color: rgb(0, 102, 204);" =
class=3D"">Section&nbsp;2.2 of [RFC8417]</span></a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">That made it available to =
EAT and other future specifications using JWTs.&nbsp; If it had instead =
put it into its own registry, the potential for reuse would have been =
lost.</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">Let=E2=80=99s=
 likewise let future specs benefit from EAT-defined claims by putting =
them in the normal IANA JWT Claims registry.</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; -- Mike</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><span =
style=3D"color: rgb(0, 32, 96);" class=3D"">&nbsp;</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"border-style: solid =
none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); =
padding: 3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">From:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Yaron Sheffer &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;<span=
 class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Wednesday, November 27, =
2019 7:54 AM<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt;; =
Benjamin Kaduk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kaduk@mit.edu" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">kaduk@mit.edu</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Cc:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Mike Jones &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones@microsoft.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones@microsoft.com</a>&gt;;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">rats@ietf.org</a>; Hannes Tschofenig &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [Rats] [EXTERNAL] Re: =
EAT IANA registry<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">To put it into perspective, there are =
already 57 claims registered [1]. So even if 7 claims overlap, this is a =
relatively *<b class=3D"">small</b>* number. IMO there is high value in =
a separate namespace for EAT claims, and the standard way to create such =
a namespace in JSON is exactly as Ben is proposing.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Thanks,<o:p=
 class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Yaron<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">[1]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"https://www.iana.org/assignments/jwt/jwt.xhtml" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">https://www.iana.org/assignments/jwt/jwt.xhtml</a><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; =
border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: =
3pt 0in 0in;" class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D""><b =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">From:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span></b><span =
style=3D"font-size: 12pt;" class=3D"">Laurence Lundblade &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:lgl@island-resort.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">lgl@island-resort.com</a>&gt;<br =
class=3D""><b class=3D"">Date:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Wednesday, November 27, =
2019 at 06:39<br class=3D""><b class=3D"">To:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Benjamin Kaduk &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:kaduk@mit.edu" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">kaduk@mit.edu</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Cc:<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Mike =
Jones &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Michael.Jones=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org=
" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Michael.Jones=3D40microsoft.com@dmarc.ietf.org</a>&gt;, Yaron =
Sheffer &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:yaronf.ietf@gmail.com" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">yaronf.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;, "<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">rats@ietf.org</a>" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:rats@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline;" class=3D"">rats@ietf.org</a>&gt;, Hannes Tschofenig &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" =
class=3D"">Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com</a>&gt;<br class=3D""><b =
class=3D"">Subject:<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Re: [Rats] [EXTERNAL] =
Re: EAT IANA registry</span><o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><blockquote style=3D"margin-top: =
5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=3D"" type=3D"cite"><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">On Nov 26, 2019, at 7:19 PM, Benjamin =
Kaduk &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kaduk@mit.edu" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline;" class=3D"">kaduk@mit.edu</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in =
0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D""><span style=3D"font-size: 9pt; font-family: Helvetica;" =
class=3D"">...but I'm not sure that "avoiding duplicates"<br =
class=3D"">would apply to a proposal that makes a single JWT/CWT claim =
for "EAT data"<br class=3D"">and puts the attestation claims in a map as =
the value for that "EAT data"<br class=3D"">claim. &nbsp;What existing =
JWT/CWT claims would duplicate the potential contents<br class=3D"">of =
the EAT data fields?</span><o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div></blockquote></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">That is an interesting thought =E2=80=94 =
put all of EAT into one JWT/CWT claim that is a map. Other=E2=80=99s =
have mentioned it to me. It would let EAT re use the most compact =
integer CBOR integer labels.<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">Right now we re use the following claims from JWT or CWT by =
normative reference:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div=
 style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">- nonce<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">- Token ID cti/jti<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">- Time stamp (iat)<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">Also these JWT or CWT seem either =
likely or possible use in EAT:<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">- cnf (proof of possession =
of key)<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">- iss Issuer<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">- expiration<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">- not before<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">That=E2=80=99s a fairly large overlap =
which makes me disinclined to putting all of EAT into one map that is =
one JWT/CWT claim, separating EAT claims from CWT/JWT claims.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I=E2=80=99m no OAuth expert, but I =
wonder if some of the EAT claims might be useful for other than EAT =
tokens, another reason not to keep them separate.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">I suspect we=E2=80=99re going to find =
at least one more use for a signed map of label-value pairs in the next =
few years that would be able to re use at least some of these claims =E2=80=
=94 another reason to keep them in the same space.<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">LL<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div =
class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div style=3D"margin: 0in =
0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p class=3D""></o:p></div></div><div class=3D""><div =
style=3D"margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif;" class=3D"">&nbsp;<o:p =
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0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" =
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display: inline !important;" =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________</span><br =
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To: "Smith\, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, rats@ietf.org
cc: Guy Fedorkow <gfedorkow@juniper.net>, "pritikin\@cisco.com" <pritikin@cisco.com>, Jessica Fitzgerald-McKay <jmfmckay@gmail.com>, "Henk Berkholz" <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, William Bellingrath <wbellingrath@juniper.net>
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Comments: In-reply-to "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com> message dated "Wed, 27 Nov 2019 19:12:11 +0000."
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Subject: Re: [Rats] name of identity key
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In some private thread, Guy said:

    > Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com> wrote:
    >> Actually, it is expected that there will be many keys in a platform
    >> that could be used to obtain an IDevID credential. As discrete
    >> components (vendors of) are increasingly embedding root-of-trust / key
    >> gen capabilities. The challenge is more likely one of deciding *which*
    >> key should be regarded as the 'platform' key/identity used for
    >> onboarding.

    >> I agree that having multiple IDevID credentials could be confusing to
    >> "platform" owners but that should not imply that a platform can only
    >> have one key / credential. It is possible for a platform to have a
    >> delegate device that represents the platform remotely while other
    >> *devices* recognize the delegate as a platform local 'verifier'. This
    >> is the Open Compute Project's Cerberus architecture / use case. The EAT
    >> sub_mods claim and TEEP architecture seems to support this convention
    >> as well.

I said:
    mcr> I don't want to prevent multiple IDevID credentials, I want to name them
    mcr> consistently :-)

Ned Smith then said:
    nms> Good question. Part of the motivation to use "IDevID" terminology in
    nms> TCG is to agree on some industry standard naming. The
    nms> Cerberus/RIoT/DICE work introduced other terms "AliasID" and

Do you mean Kerberos, or are you referring to something else?
(There have been multiple crypto protocols with that name, alas)

    nms> "DeviceID" which are more confusing than helpful. DICE layering also
    nms> uses subscript notation to disambiguate which component/layer a key
    nms> belongs to, since it doesn't make sense to name things like naming
    nms> your kids given a layered architecture. Even so, TPM and DICE still
    nms> distinguish between key / credential types based on expected usage
    nms> (identity, attestation) and DICE also support embedded CA use cases
    nms> therefore acknowledges a third type (ECA). ECA keys can attest, but
    nms> do so by including Evidence in the certificate it
    nms> issues. Attestation keys can sign evidence (e.g. sign an EAT) while
    nms> identity keys sign an auth challenge. Auth challenges can support
    nms> implicit attestation - meaning claims ascribed to the Attester
    nms> arrive at the Verifier through an out-of-band channel and can
    nms> include claims signed by Endorsers. The identity (aka SubjectName /
    nms> SubjectAltName etc...) is used to link the identity to Tokens or
    nms> Endorsements containing Claims.

    nms> Maybe it makes sense to talk about how the keys are used rather than trying to name them?

Well, I think that having it named "the key we use for Onboarding" is the
same as saying, "Onboarding Key", right?

I don't know how the manufacturing process that involves a TPM with a TPM
attestation key works.  I just know that when doing BRSKI, that there were
issues with being confused between various TPM keys, and we originally wrote
text saying that the device Serial Number might be in weird places.  We later
ripped that text out, as time had changed things, and I'm worried that this
issue is not really dead.

--
]               Never tell me the odds!                 | ipv6 mesh networks [
]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works        | network architect  [
]     mcr@sandelman.ca  http://www.sandelman.ca/        |   ruby on rails    [




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Comments: In-reply-to Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> message dated "Wed, 27 Nov 2019 18:27:21 +0100."
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Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
    > to your first point: I am not sure what legacy systems that would be able to
    > create/process EAT would not be able to process a SUIT manifest. Could you
    > elaborate on that?

I think that an example is in your hand, a smartphone.
I think that their boot/recovery roms do not process SUIT today, but it would
be possible to generate measurements in EAT format as to what is running
if the measurements are available.

    > I'd maybe not call that a dependency, but rather synergy
    > in data models, but I am under the suspicion that I simply don't understand
    > the scenario that you are talking about.

I think that the synnergy makes sense to me.
Just because we describe what is running using SUIT terminology and
constructs does not mean that we have use the entire Manifest.


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I've been asked what happens with the use case draft.
I've been asked why the working group hasn't adopted it yet, etc.

I want to remind of three things:
  1) the IESG doesn't want to publish use case documents on their own, so
     this document is never going forward as it is.

  2) the intention of this document was that it be a live collection of use
     cases and pointers to users of attestation.

  3) that the WG chairs can put a document on the agenda even if it's not a
     WG document.

The only reason to adopt the use case document into being a WG document is if
makes it easier to do scheduling, as we have a guideline that WG documents
get priority on the agenda.  The WG chairs can also declare a document as a
WG document by fiat, they don't actually have to Call for Adoption; that's
just the most consensus friendly path that we tend to take.

It may also help others to find the document in the WG list.
I am agnostic as to what the name on the document is though.
It takes the same amount of effort to write/maintain the document.
Other organizations tend to do things like approve travel more easily for
authors of WG documents.

At this point we are merging pieces of the use case document into the
architecture document, but it seems reasonable that some detailed use cases
might not fit into the architecture document.  Specifically, it might be that
the additional user doesn't provide any motivation for any unique
architecture components.

My proposal is that the use case document will linger in the state that it
is, that additions and edits will be welcome, but that there will be no
specific effort on the document until after the Feb. Hackathon/Tutorial.
Once the architecture is more mature, that a revision to the use case
document will occur connecting use cases to architectural structures.

I further propose that some users will want to write detailed profiles of
RATS as unique documents within the IETF or within other organizations.
That, as this happens, the more extensive textual description of the case
will become a reference to that document.  Such a profile document would have
to start with a problem statement (use case description) anyway.

--
]               Never tell me the odds!                 | ipv6 mesh networks [
]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works        | network architect  [
]     mcr@sandelman.ca  http://www.sandelman.ca/        |   ruby on rails    [





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From nobody Thu Nov 28 00:40:37 2019
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I am not convinced that the gap is as big as illustrated.

Maybe because I need a use case description why the "boot/recovery roms" 
are already creating EAT and not a software component running in the TEE.

Creating Measurements & Creating EAT are not tightly coupled time-wise, 
is my assumption today, for example in a cell-phone, I'd assume today.

I am in full agreement, that the entire SUIT Manifest would be over-kill 
in the stages "boot/recovery roms". Although, I know of recovery roms 
that do exactly that: retrieving a SUTI Manifest including firmware to 
do... well recovery.

Viele Grüße,

Henk

On 28.11.19 09:23, Michael Richardson wrote:
> 
> Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
>      > to your first point: I am not sure what legacy systems that would be able to
>      > create/process EAT would not be able to process a SUIT manifest. Could you
>      > elaborate on that?
> 
> I think that an example is in your hand, a smartphone.
> I think that their boot/recovery roms do not process SUIT today, but it would
> be possible to generate measurements in EAT format as to what is running
> if the measurements are available.
> 
>      > I'd maybe not call that a dependency, but rather synergy
>      > in data models, but I am under the suspicion that I simply don't understand
>      > the scenario that you are talking about.
> 
> I think that the synnergy makes sense to me.
> Just because we describe what is running using SUIT terminology and
> constructs does not mean that we have use the entire Manifest.
> 
> 
> --
> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
>   -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
> 


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Subject: Re: [Rats] [EXTERNAL] Re:  EAT IANA registry
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From: Adrian Shaw <Adrian.Shaw@arm.com>
To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
CC: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: [Rats] [sacm] CoSWID and EAT and CWT
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Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 11:39:41 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [sacm] CoSWID and EAT and CWT
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From nobody Thu Nov 28 04:22:32 2019
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To: Adrian Shaw <Adrian.Shaw@arm.com>
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From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [sacm] CoSWID and EAT and CWT
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Ah!

Yes, updating a Trusted Application in a TEE is way way easier than 
updating an "early stage boot loaders and the image signing systems".

I also totally agree with that. Somehow my point of view came from the 
other side around.

But the same is true for creating EAT, right? Or is it easier for "early 
stage boot loaders and the image signing systems" to create EAT than to 
process SUIT. I think that is intended to be the conclusion here, if I 
am not mistaken, but I do not yet understand why that is the case.

Viele Grüße,

Henk

On 28.11.19 12:39, Adrian Shaw wrote:
> Hi Henk,
> 
> The scenario that Michael described was one I had in mind. It is much easier to update a TA or a TEE to support EAT on an existing system than it is to update the early stage boot loaders and the image signing systems in order to support SUIT.
> 
> Glad that you somewhat agree :-)
> 
> Adrian
> 
>> On 28 Nov 2019, at 08:40, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
>>
>> I am not convinced that the gap is as big as illustrated.
>>
>> Maybe because I need a use case description why the "boot/recovery roms" are already creating EAT and not a software component running in the TEE.
>>
>> Creating Measurements & Creating EAT are not tightly coupled time-wise, is my assumption today, for example in a cell-phone, I'd assume today.
>>
>> I am in full agreement, that the entire SUIT Manifest would be over-kill in the stages "boot/recovery roms". Although, I know of recovery roms that do exactly that: retrieving a SUTI Manifest including firmware to do... well recovery.
>>
>> Viele Grüße,
>>
>> Henk
>>
>> On 28.11.19 09:23, Michael Richardson wrote:
>>> Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
>>>      > to your first point: I am not sure what legacy systems that would be able to
>>>      > create/process EAT would not be able to process a SUIT manifest. Could you
>>>      > elaborate on that?
>>> I think that an example is in your hand, a smartphone.
>>> I think that their boot/recovery roms do not process SUIT today, but it would
>>> be possible to generate measurements in EAT format as to what is running
>>> if the measurements are available.
>>>      > I'd maybe not call that a dependency, but rather synergy
>>>      > in data models, but I am under the suspicion that I simply don't understand
>>>      > the scenario that you are talking about.
>>> I think that the synnergy makes sense to me.
>>> Just because we describe what is running using SUIT terminology and
>>> constructs does not mean that we have use the entire Manifest.
>>> --
>>> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
>>>   -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> RATS mailing list
>>> RATS@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> RATS mailing list
>> RATS@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
> 
> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
> 


From nobody Thu Nov 28 08:47:39 2019
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From: Thomas Fossati <Thomas.Fossati@arm.com>
To: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, "sacm@ietf.org" <sacm@ietf.org>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: [sacm] [Rats] CoSWID and EAT and CWT
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/rats/83v3VASB2JW8YBiQ4HPmIxaSE8U>
Subject: Re: [Rats] [sacm]  CoSWID and EAT and CWT
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biBpbiBhbnkgbWVkaXVtLiBUaGFuayB5b3UuDQo=


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Cc: Thomas Fossati <Thomas.Fossati@arm.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>,  Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "sacm@ietf.org" <sacm@ietf.org>
To: Adrian Shaw <Adrian.Shaw@arm.com>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [sacm]  CoSWID and EAT and CWT
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I am very much agreement with Adrian.

SUIT is far from wide adoption, yet billions of devices have =
verified/secure boot* and do a good job of SW update. Some of these =
devices like mobile phones have very complex boot and multifaceted SW =
updated, other are very simple lost cost single-use devices.

For many use cases, a simple EAT with only a few claims will suffice. =
Maybe the only claims are the UEID and the version of THE software for =
the device because it only has one SW component. Only the mandatory =
CoSWID fields, plus version, are filled in for the single SW component. =
Such an EAT would have 8 claims as in the example below. It is critical =
IMO that EAT keeps tokens for these simple use case simple. The minimum =
CoSWID is 5 claims right now. Wouldn=E2=80=99t want to increase that.

Constructing the payload for this EAT is pretty simple. The only claim =
that varies from one token to the next is the nonce. The CoSWID part =
could be a hard-coded byte array containing the encoded CBOR since it =
will never change. The harder part of EAT here will be COSE and signing =
key set up, not claim construction.

Importantly, the boot SW of this simple device need not be touched. The =
EAT implementation automatically gets the security from whatever boot =
security it has.=20

Even on a complex device such as one with a TEE and TA=E2=80=99s, the =
TA=E2=80=99s most likely get all the security from the boot sequence and =
TEE OS without having to modify the boot sequence or the TEE OS (I am =
quite sure of this having done it for Qualcomm's Hardware Token here =
<https://www.qualcomm.com/products/features/mobile-security>).

LL


* Generally agree with Monty=E2=80=99s recent definition of verified =
boot; some people call this secure boot


18(
    [
        / protected parameters, bstr wrapped / << {
            / alg / 1: -7 / ECDSA 256 /
        } >>,
        / unprotected parameters / {
            / kid / 4: h'4173796d6d657472696345434453413
                          23536' / 'AsymmetricECDSA256' /
        },

        / COSE payload, the EAT, bstr wrapped / << {
            / nonce  /
            7:h'948f8860d13a463e8e',
   =20
            / UEID /
            8:h'0198f50a4ff6c05861c8860d13a638ea4fe2f',
   =20
            / The CoSWID /
            21: {
          =20
                / tag-id, globally unique identifier for the software =
component /
      0: "trustedfirmware.org/TF-M <http://trustedfirmware.org/TF-M>",

      / tag-version (here: 0, i.e. initial tag) /
      12: 0,

      / software component name /
      1: "TF-M",

      / version of the software component /
      13: "1.0.0-rc1+build.123",


      / entity, i.e. organizations responsible for producing or =
releasing
        the software component /
      2: {
          / entity name /
          31: "Linaro Limited=E2=80=9D,

    / entity role (here: software creator) /
    33: 2,

           },

       }
   } >>,

   / signature / h'5427c1ff28d23fbad1f29c4c7c6a555e601d6fa29f
                   9179bc3d7438bacaca5acd08c8d4d4f96131680c42
                   9a01f85951ecee743a52b9b63632c57209120e1c9e
                   30'
]
)




> On Nov 27, 2019, at 9:13 AM, Adrian Shaw <Adrian.Shaw@arm.com> wrote:
>=20
> While there is some synergy with the SUIT definition, I=E2=80=99m =
unconvinced that it should be the way to express a software component =
metadata. Firstly, there are legacy systems without SUIT that would want =
to use EAT, and such a dependency would make it hard for incremental =
adoption. Secondly, not all the data from the SUIT manifest is needed =
for this claim.
>=20
> Adrian
>=20
>> On 27 Nov 2019, at 16:59, Thomas Fossati <Thomas.Fossati@arm.com> =
wrote:
>>=20
>> Hi Henk
>>=20
>> Thanks very much for your input.
>>=20
>> On 27/11/2019, 13:24, "Henk Birkholz" =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
>>> yes there are ways to deal with firmware in SWID, namely the =
resource
>>> type (index 19) in the set of SWID resource-collection [1] in
>>> combination with the rel type (index 40) entries.
>>>=20
>>> This way, you would not have to use filesystem-items, but this way =
is
>>> also a bit clunky and would require an informational guidance =
document
>>> describing how to use *SWID for that.
>>=20
>> That's interesting because initially I also tried to use the resource
>> type -- which looked like the less wrong among all the available =
types
>> in the resource collection.  However it wasn't clear to me how to
>> associate a checksum to the component, hence I went for the
>> filesystem-item.  Maybe I was just looking in the wrong place or =
maybe,
>> as you say, there's a magic firmware recipe that's worth documenting
>> here.
>>=20
>>> There are some quite smart ways to do that actually with
>>> filesystem-items, but I think it is more feasible to use a SUIT
>>> manifest here to describe everything relevant to the "firmware =
thingy"
>>> and then put a CoSWID into the SUIT manifest's outer wrapper [2] =
that
>>> then represents the rest of the semantics that is not covered by the
>>> manifest but by CoSWID. This method is fine, as the COSE envelope
>>> around the EAT will make tempering with the outer wrapper of the =
SUIT
>>> Manifest evident.
>>>=20
>>> I think that is a more elegant way to do it, actually, and the =
reason
>>> why issue #46 in the EAT repo proposes to define a Claim to include =
a
>>> SUIT Manifest in an EAT, too.
>>=20
>> I'll look into this, thanks for the pointer.
>>=20
>> Stepping back for a second and looking from the perspective of my
>> immediate requirement (i.e., "Is it possible to translate PSA's =
software
>> component claim using purely EAT constructs?"), ideally I'd like to =
have
>> something that is expressive enough to encode my semantics (i.e.: SW
>> component name, version, signer and measurement) without being overly
>> complex.
>>=20
>> So my knee-jerk reaction is if that implies pulling a dependency on
>> SUIT maybe it's a bit too much?  But I confess haven't yet looked at
>> the details of your proposal nor I can claim enough SUIT-foo to =
really
>> grok the complexity involved.  As said, I'll have a look shortly.
>>=20
>> cheers!
>>=20
>> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are =
confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended =
recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the =
contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy =
the information in any medium. Thank you.
>> _______________________________________________
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>=20
> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are =
confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended =
recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the =
contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy =
the information in any medium. Thank you.
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats


--Apple-Mail=_8AD69A77-7450-4536-9A63-B9B1BAF7C5B9
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">I =
am very much agreement with Adrian.<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">SUIT is far from wide adoption, yet =
billions of devices have verified/secure boot* and do a good job of SW =
update. Some of these devices like mobile phones have very complex boot =
and multifaceted SW updated, other are very simple lost cost single-use =
devices.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">For =
many use cases, a simple EAT with only a few claims will suffice. Maybe =
the only claims are the UEID and the version of THE software for the =
device because it only has one SW component. Only the mandatory CoSWID =
fields, plus version, are filled in for the single SW component. Such an =
EAT would have 8 claims as in the example below. It is critical IMO that =
EAT keeps tokens for these simple use case simple. The minimum CoSWID is =
5 claims right now. Wouldn=E2=80=99t want to increase that.</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Constructing the payload =
for this EAT is pretty simple. The only claim that varies from one token =
to the next is the nonce. The CoSWID part could be a hard-coded byte =
array containing the encoded CBOR since it will never change. The harder =
part of EAT here will be COSE and signing key set up, not claim =
construction.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Importantly, the boot SW of this simple device need not be =
touched. The EAT implementation automatically gets the security from =
whatever boot security it has.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">Even on a complex device such as one =
with a TEE and TA=E2=80=99s, the TA=E2=80=99s most likely get all the =
security from the boot sequence and TEE OS without having to modify the =
boot sequence or the TEE OS (I am quite sure of this having done it for =
Qualcomm's Hardware Token&nbsp;<a =
href=3D"https://www.qualcomm.com/products/features/mobile-security" =
class=3D"">here</a>).</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">LL</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">* Generally agree with =
Monty=E2=80=99s recent definition of verified boot; some people call =
this secure boot</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D""><div class=3D""><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;"><font face=3D"Menlo" class=3D"">18(
    [
        / protected parameters, bstr wrapped / &lt;&lt; {
            / alg / 1: -7 / ECDSA 256 /
        } &gt;&gt;,</font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font =
face=3D"Menlo" class=3D"">        / unprotected parameters / {
            / kid / 4: h'4173796d6d657472696345434453413
                          23536' / 'AsymmetricECDSA256' /
        },</font></pre><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Menlo" class=3D""><br=
 class=3D""></font></div></div><div class=3D""><pre class=3D"newpage" =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font =
face=3D"Menlo" class=3D"">        / COSE payload, the EAT, bstr wrapped =
/ &lt;&lt; {
            / nonce  /</font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font =
face=3D"Menlo" class=3D"">            7:h'948f8860d13a463e8e',
   &nbsp;</font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font face=3D"Menlo" class=3D""> =
           / UEID /</font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font =
face=3D"Menlo" class=3D"">            =
8:h'0198f50a4ff6c05861c8860d13a638ea4fe2f',
   &nbsp;</font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font class=3D"" face=3D"Menlo"> =
           / The CoSWID /</font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><span =
class=3D""><font face=3D"Menlo" class=3D"">            21: =
{</font></span></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><span class=3D""><font =
face=3D"Menlo" class=3D"">          &nbsp;</font></span></pre><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;"><span class=3D""><font face=3D"Menlo" class=3D"">   =
             / tag-id, globally unique identifier for the software =
component /</font></span></pre></div><blockquote class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; border: none; padding: =
0px;"><blockquote class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; border: =
none; padding: 0px;"><div class=3D""><pre class=3D"newpage" =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font =
class=3D"" face=3D"Menlo">&nbsp;     0: "<a =
href=3D"http://trustedfirmware.org/TF-M" =
class=3D"">trustedfirmware.org/TF-M</a>",</font></pre></div></blockquote><=
blockquote class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; border: none; =
padding: 0px;"><div class=3D""><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top:=
 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Menlo"><br class=3D""></font></pre></div></blockquote><blockquote =
class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; border: none; padding: =
0px;"><div class=3D""><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font class=3D"" face=3D"Menlo"> =
  &nbsp;  / tag-version (here: 0, i.e. initial tag) =
/</font></pre></div></blockquote><blockquote class=3D"" style=3D"margin: =
0px 0px 0px 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;"><div class=3D""><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;"><font class=3D"" face=3D"Menlo">&nbsp;     12: =
0,</font></pre></div></blockquote><blockquote class=3D"" style=3D"margin: =
0px 0px 0px 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;"><div class=3D""><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;"><font class=3D"" face=3D"Menlo"><br =
class=3D""></font></pre></div></blockquote><blockquote class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;"><div =
class=3D""><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Menlo">&nbsp;     / software component name =
/</font></pre></div></blockquote><blockquote class=3D"" style=3D"margin: =
0px 0px 0px 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;"><div class=3D""><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;"><font class=3D"" face=3D"Menlo">&nbsp;     1: =
"TF-M",</font></pre></div></blockquote><blockquote class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;"><div =
class=3D""><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Menlo"><br class=3D""></font></pre></div></blockquote><blockquote =
class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; border: none; padding: =
0px;"><div class=3D""><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Menlo">&nbsp;     / version of the software component =
/</font></pre></div></blockquote><blockquote class=3D"" style=3D"margin: =
0px 0px 0px 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;"><div class=3D""><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;"><font class=3D"" face=3D"Menlo">&nbsp;     13: =
"1.0.0-rc1+build.123",</font></pre></div></blockquote><blockquote =
class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; border: none; padding: =
0px;"><div class=3D""><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font face=3D"Menlo" =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></font></pre></div></blockquote><blockquote =
class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; border: none; padding: =
0px;"><div class=3D""><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Menlo"><br class=3D""></font></pre></div></blockquote><blockquote =
class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; border: none; padding: =
0px;"><div class=3D""><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Menlo">&nbsp;     / entity, i.e. organizations responsible for =
producing or releasing</font></pre></div></blockquote><blockquote =
class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; border: none; padding: =
0px;"><div class=3D""><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Menlo">&nbsp; &nbsp;     the software component =
/</font></pre></div></blockquote><blockquote class=3D"" style=3D"margin: =
0px 0px 0px 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;"><div class=3D""><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;"><font class=3D"" face=3D"Menlo">&nbsp;     2: =
{</font></pre></div></blockquote><blockquote class=3D"" style=3D"margin: =
0px 0px 0px 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;"><div class=3D""><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;"><font class=3D"" face=3D"Menlo">&nbsp; &nbsp;       =
/ entity name /</font></pre></div></blockquote><blockquote class=3D"" =
style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;"><div =
class=3D""><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Menlo">&nbsp;      &nbsp;  31: "Linaro =
Limited=E2=80=9D,</font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Menlo"><br class=3D""></font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font =
class=3D"" face=3D"Menlo"><blockquote class=3D"" style=3D"white-space: =
normal; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;"><div =
class=3D""><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font class=3D"">    / entity =
role (here: software creator) =
/</font></pre></div></blockquote><blockquote class=3D"" =
style=3D"white-space: normal; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; border: none; =
padding: 0px;"><div class=3D""><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top:=
 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font class=3D"">    33: =
2,</font></pre></div></blockquote></font></pre></div></blockquote><blockqu=
ote class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; border: none; padding: =
0px;"><div class=3D""><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font face=3D"Menlo" =
class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></font></pre></div></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote =
class=3D"" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; border: none; padding: =
0px;"><div class=3D""><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Menlo">&nbsp;          },</font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font =
class=3D"" face=3D"Menlo"><br class=3D""></font></pre><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;"><font face=3D"Menlo" class=3D"">&nbsp;      =
}</font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font class=3D"" face=3D"Menlo"> =
  } &gt;&gt;,</font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><font class=3D"" =
face=3D"Menlo"><br class=3D""></font></pre><pre class=3D"newpage" =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; break-before: page;"><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;"><font face=3D"Menlo" class=3D"">   / signature / =
h'5427c1ff28d23fbad1f29c4c7c6a555e601d6fa29f
                   9179bc3d7438bacaca5acd08c8d4d4f96131680c42
                   9a01f85951ecee743a52b9b63632c57209120e1c9e
                   30'</font></pre><div class=3D""><font face=3D"Menlo" =
class=3D"">]</font></div></pre></div></blockquote><div class=3D""><pre =
class=3D"newpage" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
break-before: page;"><font face=3D"Menlo" =
class=3D"">)</font></pre></div><div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div></div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Nov 27, 2019, at 9:13 AM, Adrian Shaw =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Adrian.Shaw@arm.com" =
class=3D"">Adrian.Shaw@arm.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D""><div class=3D"">While =
there is some synergy with the SUIT definition, I=E2=80=99m unconvinced =
that it should be the way to express a software component metadata. =
Firstly, there are legacy systems without SUIT that would want to use =
EAT, and such a dependency would make it hard for incremental adoption. =
Secondly, not all the data from the SUIT manifest is needed for this =
claim.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Adrian<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">On 27 Nov 2019, at =
16:59, Thomas Fossati &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Thomas.Fossati@arm.com" =
class=3D"">Thomas.Fossati@arm.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D"">Hi Henk<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Thanks very much for =
your input.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">On 27/11/2019, 13:24, "Henk =
Birkholz" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" =
class=3D"">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt; wrote:<br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">yes there are ways to =
deal with firmware in SWID, namely the resource<br class=3D"">type =
(index 19) in the set of SWID resource-collection [1] in<br =
class=3D"">combination with the rel type (index 40) entries.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">This way, you would not have to use =
filesystem-items, but this way is<br class=3D"">also a bit clunky and =
would require an informational guidance document<br class=3D"">describing =
how to use *SWID for that.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br =
class=3D"">That's interesting because initially I also tried to use the =
resource<br class=3D"">type -- which looked like the less wrong among =
all the available types<br class=3D"">in the resource collection. =
&nbsp;However it wasn't clear to me how to<br class=3D"">associate a =
checksum to the component, hence I went for the<br =
class=3D"">filesystem-item. &nbsp;Maybe I was just looking in the wrong =
place or maybe,<br class=3D"">as you say, there's a magic firmware =
recipe that's worth documenting<br class=3D"">here.<br class=3D""><br =
class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">There are some quite =
smart ways to do that actually with<br class=3D"">filesystem-items, but =
I think it is more feasible to use a SUIT<br class=3D"">manifest here to =
describe everything relevant to the "firmware thingy"<br class=3D"">and =
then put a CoSWID into the SUIT manifest's outer wrapper [2] that<br =
class=3D"">then represents the rest of the semantics that is not covered =
by the<br class=3D"">manifest but by CoSWID. This method is fine, as the =
COSE envelope<br class=3D"">around the EAT will make tempering with the =
outer wrapper of the SUIT<br class=3D"">Manifest evident.<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">I think that is a more elegant way to do it, =
actually, and the reason<br class=3D"">why issue #46 in the EAT repo =
proposes to define a Claim to include a<br class=3D"">SUIT Manifest in =
an EAT, too.<br class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">I'll look into =
this, thanks for the pointer.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">Stepping back =
for a second and looking from the perspective of my<br =
class=3D"">immediate requirement (i.e., "Is it possible to translate =
PSA's software<br class=3D"">component claim using purely EAT =
constructs?"), ideally I'd like to have<br class=3D"">something that is =
expressive enough to encode my semantics (i.e.: SW<br class=3D"">component=
 name, version, signer and measurement) without being overly<br =
class=3D"">complex.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">So my knee-jerk =
reaction is if that implies pulling a dependency on<br class=3D"">SUIT =
maybe it's a bit too much? &nbsp;But I confess haven't yet looked at<br =
class=3D"">the details of your proposal nor I can claim enough SUIT-foo =
to really<br class=3D"">grok the complexity involved. &nbsp;As said, =
I'll have a look shortly.<br class=3D""><br class=3D"">cheers!<br =
class=3D""><br class=3D"">IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email =
and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you =
are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and =
do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any =
purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.<br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">RATS mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" class=3D"">RATS@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats<br =
class=3D""></blockquote><br class=3D"">IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of =
this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be =
privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the =
sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, =
use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. =
Thank you.<br =
class=3D"">_______________________________________________<br =
class=3D"">RATS mailing list<br class=3D""><a =
href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" class=3D"">RATS@ietf.org</a><br =
class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats<br =
class=3D""></div></div></blockquote></div><br =
class=3D""></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail=_8AD69A77-7450-4536-9A63-B9B1BAF7C5B9--


From nobody Thu Nov 28 18:39:13 2019
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To: Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>, Adrian Shaw <Adrian.Shaw@arm.com>
CC: Thomas Fossati <Thomas.Fossati@arm.com>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>,  Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, "sacm@ietf.org" <sacm@ietf.org>
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From: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [sacm] CoSWID and EAT and CWT
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Hi Laurence,

I absolutely agree.

1.) the complexity of a solution should be appropriate to the problem.

=> EAT is very flexible and can scale from simple to (maybe even overly 
- we should avoid that) complex.

2.) It is critical to not use an overly complex solution for a simple 
problem.

3.) There could be "hardcoded" (but in that case mandating their own 
signature) CoSWID Claims for specific type/model composites that cannot 
be differentiated via their software components (because they are all 
the same, for example) and that is fine (as an analogy, I think there 
could be binary YANG telemetry that is composed of hardcoded 
building-blocks, if the device the custom subscription is created with 
is simple enough).

4.) If the boot SW is not intended to be touched, it is not touched. 
Although I think, an EAT should highlight that in it's CoSWID or a 
related claim in the EAT, to steer its "superior's"/management system's 
decision as a "hint".

5.) It should not be excluded to allow for complex composition of CoSWID 
and SUIT claims for more complex devices that can deal with elaborate 
update and remediation scenarios.

=> Again, EAT provides the flexibility for that - we should leverage 
that, I think.

Happy Thanks Giving!

Henk

p.s. alas a CoSWID will never be a "a hard-coded byte array", please 
never cut out a portion out of a CoSWID, but deliver it "in its 
entirety". Your example used the index 21 (which I assume is an example 
for an EAT Claim), but please prefix the COSE CBOR tag (if the CoSWID 
tag is signed) and always prefix the CoSWID CBOR tag (inside the body of 
the COSE envelope, too, if applicable) :)

On 28.11.19 22:53, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
> I am very much agreement with Adrian.
> 
> SUIT is far from wide adoption, yet billions of devices have 
> verified/secure boot* and do a good job of SW update. Some of these 
> devices like mobile phones have very complex boot and multifaceted SW 
> updated, other are very simple lost cost single-use devices.
> 
> For many use cases, a simple EAT with only a few claims will suffice. 
> Maybe the only claims are the UEID and the version of THE software for 
> the device because it only has one SW component. Only the mandatory 
> CoSWID fields, plus version, are filled in for the single SW component. 
> Such an EAT would have 8 claims as in the example below. It is critical 
> IMO that EAT keeps tokens for these simple use case simple. The minimum 
> CoSWID is 5 claims right now. Wouldn’t want to increase that.
> 
> Constructing the payload for this EAT is pretty simple. The only claim 
> that varies from one token to the next is the nonce. The CoSWID part 
> could be a hard-coded byte array containing the encoded CBOR since it 
> will never change. The harder part of EAT here will be COSE and signing 
> key set up, not claim construction.
> 
> Importantly, the boot SW of this simple device need not be touched. The 
> EAT implementation automatically gets the security from whatever boot 
> security it has.
> 
> Even on a complex device such as one with a TEE and TA’s, the TA’s most 
> likely get all the security from the boot sequence and TEE OS without 
> having to modify the boot sequence or the TEE OS (I am quite sure of 
> this having done it for Qualcomm's Hardware Token here 
> <https://www.qualcomm.com/products/features/mobile-security>).
> 
> LL
> 
> 
> * Generally agree with Monty’s recent definition of verified boot; some 
> people call this secure boot
> 
> 
> 18( [ / protected parameters, bstr wrapped / << { / alg / 1: -7 / ECDSA 
> 256 / } >>,
> 
> / unprotected parameters / { / kid / 4: 
> h'4173796d6d657472696345434453413 23536' / 'AsymmetricECDSA256' / },
> 
> 
> / COSE payload, the EAT, bstr wrapped / << { / nonce /
> 
> 7:h'948f8860d13a463e8e',
> 
> / UEID /
> 
> 8:h'0198f50a4ff6c05861c8860d13a638ea4fe2f',
> 
> / The CoSWID /
> 
> 21: {
> 
> / tag-id, globally unique identifier for the software component /
> 
>            0: "trustedfirmware.org/TF-M <http://trustedfirmware.org/TF-M>",
> 
> 
>            / tag-version (here: 0, i.e. initial tag) /
> 
>            12: 0,
> 
> 
>            / software component name /
> 
>            1: "TF-M",
> 
> 
>            / version of the software component /
> 
>            13: "1.0.0-rc1+build.123",
> 
> 
> 
>            / entity, i.e. organizations responsible for producing or
>         releasing
> 
>              the software component /
> 
>            2: {
> 
>              / entity name /
> 
>              31: "Linaro Limited”,
> 
> 
>             / entity role (here: software creator) /
> 
>             33: 2,
> 
> 
>        },
> 
> 
>        }
> 
>     } >>,
> 
> 
>     / signature / h'5427c1ff28d23fbad1f29c4c7c6a555e601d6fa29f
>     9179bc3d7438bacaca5acd08c8d4d4f96131680c42
>     9a01f85951ecee743a52b9b63632c57209120e1c9e 30'
> 
>     ]
> 
> )
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Nov 27, 2019, at 9:13 AM, Adrian Shaw <Adrian.Shaw@arm.com 
>> <mailto:Adrian.Shaw@arm.com>> wrote:
>>
>> While there is some synergy with the SUIT definition, I’m unconvinced 
>> that it should be the way to express a software component metadata. 
>> Firstly, there are legacy systems without SUIT that would want to use 
>> EAT, and such a dependency would make it hard for incremental 
>> adoption. Secondly, not all the data from the SUIT manifest is needed 
>> for this claim.
>>
>> Adrian
>>
>>> On 27 Nov 2019, at 16:59, Thomas Fossati <Thomas.Fossati@arm.com 
>>> <mailto:Thomas.Fossati@arm.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Henk
>>>
>>> Thanks very much for your input.
>>>
>>> On 27/11/2019, 13:24, "Henk Birkholz" 
>>> <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de 
>>> <mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
>>>> yes there are ways to deal with firmware in SWID, namely the resource
>>>> type (index 19) in the set of SWID resource-collection [1] in
>>>> combination with the rel type (index 40) entries.
>>>>
>>>> This way, you would not have to use filesystem-items, but this way is
>>>> also a bit clunky and would require an informational guidance document
>>>> describing how to use *SWID for that.
>>>
>>> That's interesting because initially I also tried to use the resource
>>> type -- which looked like the less wrong among all the available types
>>> in the resource collection.  However it wasn't clear to me how to
>>> associate a checksum to the component, hence I went for the
>>> filesystem-item.  Maybe I was just looking in the wrong place or maybe,
>>> as you say, there's a magic firmware recipe that's worth documenting
>>> here.
>>>
>>>> There are some quite smart ways to do that actually with
>>>> filesystem-items, but I think it is more feasible to use a SUIT
>>>> manifest here to describe everything relevant to the "firmware thingy"
>>>> and then put a CoSWID into the SUIT manifest's outer wrapper [2] that
>>>> then represents the rest of the semantics that is not covered by the
>>>> manifest but by CoSWID. This method is fine, as the COSE envelope
>>>> around the EAT will make tempering with the outer wrapper of the SUIT
>>>> Manifest evident.
>>>>
>>>> I think that is a more elegant way to do it, actually, and the reason
>>>> why issue #46 in the EAT repo proposes to define a Claim to include a
>>>> SUIT Manifest in an EAT, too.
>>>
>>> I'll look into this, thanks for the pointer.
>>>
>>> Stepping back for a second and looking from the perspective of my
>>> immediate requirement (i.e., "Is it possible to translate PSA's software
>>> component claim using purely EAT constructs?"), ideally I'd like to have
>>> something that is expressive enough to encode my semantics (i.e.: SW
>>> component name, version, signer and measurement) without being overly
>>> complex.
>>>
>>> So my knee-jerk reaction is if that implies pulling a dependency on
>>> SUIT maybe it's a bit too much?  But I confess haven't yet looked at
>>> the details of your proposal nor I can claim enough SUIT-foo to really
>>> grok the complexity involved.  As said, I'll have a look shortly.
>>>
>>> cheers!
>>>
>>> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are 
>>> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended 
>>> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose 
>>> the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or 
>>> copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>>
>> IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are 
>> confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended 
>> recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose 
>> the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or 
>> copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
>> _______________________________________________
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>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
> 


From nobody Fri Nov 29 03:59:32 2019
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From nobody Fri Nov 29 05:59:42 2019
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [sacm] CoSWID and EAT and CWT
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Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
    > I am in full agreement, that the entire SUIT Manifest would be
    > over-kill in the stages "boot/recovery roms". Although, I know of
    > recovery roms that do exactly that: retrieving a SUTI Manifest
    > including firmware to do... well recovery.

No, I don't think it's overkill, I think that SUIT just didn't exist, and
sometimes better is the enemy of already-deployed-good-enough-code.


=2D-=20
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-




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From: Kathleen Moriarty <kathleen.moriarty.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2019 11:06:01 -0500
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To: Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
Cc: Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Rats] [sacm] CoSWID and EAT and CWT
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On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 8:59 AM Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
wrote:

>
> Henk Birkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de> wrote:
>     > I am in full agreement, that the entire SUIT Manifest would be
>     > over-kill in the stages "boot/recovery roms". Although, I know of
>     > recovery roms that do exactly that: retrieving a SUTI Manifest
>     > including firmware to do... well recovery.
>
> No, I don't think it's overkill, I think that SUIT just didn't exist, and
> sometimes better is the enemy of already-deployed-good-enough-code.
>

And other standards gained traction for non-IoT platforms, EUFI (
https://uefi.org/specifications).

Best regards,
Kathleen

>
>
> --
> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
>  -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats
>


-- 

Best regards,
Kathleen

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br></div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
<div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Fri, Nov 29, 2019 at 8:59 AM Micha=
el Richardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr%2Bietf@sandelman.ca">mcr+ietf@sande=
lman.ca</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-lef=
t:1ex"><br>
Henk Birkholz &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" target=
=3D"_blank">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; I am in full agreement, that the entire SUIT Manifest wo=
uld be<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; over-kill in the stages &quot;boot/recovery roms&quot;. =
Although, I know of<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; recovery roms that do exactly that: retrieving a SUTI Ma=
nifest<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &gt; including firmware to do... well recovery.<br>
<br>
No, I don&#39;t think it&#39;s overkill, I think that SUIT just didn&#39;t =
exist, and<br>
sometimes better is the enemy of already-deployed-good-enough-code.<br></bl=
ockquote><div><br></div><div>And other standards gained traction for non-Io=
T platforms, EUFI (<a href=3D"https://uefi.org/specifications">https://uefi=
.org/specifications</a>).</div><div><br></div><div>Best regards,</div><div>=
Kathleen</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px=
 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Michael Richardson &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mcr%2BIETF@sandelman.ca" target=3D=
"_blank">mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca</a>&gt;, Sandelman Software Works<br>
=C2=A0-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
RATS mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">RATS@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats" rel=3D"noreferrer" t=
arget=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"=
 class=3D"gmail_signature"><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div>Best regards,</div><di=
v>Kathleen</div></div></div></div>

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Subject: Re: [Rats] Two types of secure attestation
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That is really helpful, Monty. Thank you!

My understanding is that TPM-based remote attestation is all about =
sending the Measured Boot result to a server / service that is the =
verifier + relying party. That is what the Yang module draft, before EAT =
was added, is about, what Guy=E2=80=99s RIV drafts is about, and Franke =
pub-sub draft is about.=20

My understanding is that Verified Boot is not directly relevant to the =
these just-mentioned IETF drafts. Devices doing remote Measured Boot =
might have used Verified Boot or might not have. It doesn=E2=80=99t =
matter. The remote server / service doesn=E2=80=99t know. It is not =
reported to them in the remote attestation.

In this regard, EAT is in a way the opposite. For SW-based =
implementations of EAT, Verified Boot is critical. The EAT is of little =
value without it. The server / service trusts an EAT because the =
manufacturer committed to not putting EAT signing keys into devices that =
don=E2=80=99t implement Verified Boot.

Does this line up with how you understand it?

LL


> On Nov 27, 2019, at 12:11 PM, Monty Wiseman <montywiseman32@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>=20
> Let's not use confusing terms like TPM-style / TCG language. I propose
> we start with lower-level fundamental definitions or even axioms for
> boot types. Within those definitions, I recommend deprecating the term
> "Secure Boot" as it's imprecise and even misleading. I expect there to
> be variations on these creating derivative definitions but I postulate
> these are fundamental as basic building blocks.
>=20
> Root of Trust: Something that is assumed to always operate in the
> expected manner. The implementation is assumed to be correct. How it =
is
> implemented it outside the scope of its definition.
>=20
> Verified Boot: Starts with a Root of Trust. For this type of boot the
> Root of Trust is the Root of Trust for Verification (RTV). The RTV
> includes a boot policy which is likely a verification key. The RTV
> enforces the boot policy which continues through the boot process
> assuming each component continues enforcing the boot policy or other
> policies authorized by the RTV's boot policy. The trust in the device
> depends on the RTV's boot policy and not on any external entity such =
as a
> Verifier. The boot policy is locked by the RTV and cannot be further
> evaluated beyond a binary "Trusted" or "Not Trusted" state. The =
evidence
> of whether this device is trusted is, therefore, determined by whether
> it boot to the correct state. (Some would say this is "existential =
boot.)
>=20
> The TPM has no dependency on Verified Boot and Verified boot has no
> architectural dependence on the TPM.
>=20
> Measured Boot: Starts with the Root of Trust. For this type of boot it
> is the Root of Trust for Measurement (RTM). The RTM contains no boot
> policy. The device's components are recorded and stored through the =
boot
> process as each component is assumed to continue measurement process. =
At
> some time during the boot process these measurements are converted to
> evidence and send to a Verifier. The trust in the device depends on a
> Verifier's evaluation of this evidence. The Verifier has a rich set of
> policy options available it beyond a binary "Trusted" or "Not Trusted"
> state. The type of boot depends on a trusted component (such as a TPM)
> record and converted the measurements into evidence.
>=20
> Summary:
> The difference between Verified Boot and Measured boot is where the
> policy is enforced.
>=20
> Verified Boot:
>       1> Policy is hard coded at boot time, is immutable, and binary.
>       (This form of boot is "existential" -- The device either boots =
to
>       a valid state, or not)
>=20
>       2> Is simpler to implement but less flexible
>=20
> Measured Boot:
>       1> The trust state is determined by a Verifier using evidence
>       about the device and a flexible set of policies.
>=20
>       2> Is more complex to implement but more flexible.
>=20
> Diagram:
>=20
> Verified Boot=3D=3D=3D>
>=20
>     Policy
>=20
>     |
>=20
>     V
>=20
>     RTV --- Component --- Component --- Component --- End State:
>=20
>     A trusted device state is created only if all policies were met
>     (i.e, the device booted). If any policy was not met, the device =
(as
>     it is expected) doesn't really exist (it appears as a different
>     device)
>=20
> Measured Boot=3D=3D=3D>
>=20
>                                                             Policy
>=20
>                                                                |
>=20
>                                                                V
>=20
>     RTM --- Component --- Component --- Component --- End State:
>=20
>    Trust State determined by a Verifier by appraising evidence =
collected=20
>    using a set of policies.
>=20
> Monty
>=20
> Disclaimer: This is my personal opinion and not that of my employeer =
or
> the Trusted Ccomputing Group. While I co-chair TCG's Trusted Network
> Connect and Infrastructure Working Groups, the above defintions have
> not been officially adopted by the TCG's Technical Committee or Board =
of
> Directors.
>=20
>=20
> On 11/24/19 3:01 PM, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>>> On Nov 24, 2019, at 7:31 AM, Henk Birkholz =
<henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de =
<mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>> wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Hi all,
>>>=20
>>> in a nutshell, one of the things I tried to express is that the =
following quite is simply not correct wrt to what is called here the =
"TPM-style" (I would really like to not use the words "TPM-style" and =
not to mixing authenticated & secure boot. Authenticated Boot is fine):
>>> > Primarily the difference between TPM-style that doesn=E2=80=99t =
rely on secure boot and non-TPM-style that does rely on secure boot.
>>=20
>> It=E2=80=99s hard to know what to call things. I=E2=80=99m learning =
the =E2=80=9CTCG language=E2=80=9D slowly and we=E2=80=99re also =
evolving (in the architecture document) a common language. I keep trying =
terms and definitions to see what sticks and what doesn=E2=80=99t. =
Pretty sure we agree on =E2=80=9Cattestation evidence=E2=80=9D, =
=E2=80=9Cverifier=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cattestation result=E2=80=9D, but =
I don=E2=80=99t know what =E2=80=9Csecure boot=E2=80=9D, =
=E2=80=9Cauthenticated boot=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ctrusted boot=E2=80=9D =
mean to you so I don=E2=80=99t know which term to use.
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> It is never possible to create TPM structures that are signed =
Attestation Evidence, if a device that is explicitly intended to conduct =
"secure boot" did actually not do so successfully. That is one of the =
key-features of TPM/TSS remote attestation procedures.
>>=20
>> It seems to me that TPM-style attestation where you measure each step =
in the boot sequence and report to a verifier was designed to work =
without secure boot. However I can see that it could also work with =
secure / trusted / authenticated boot.
>>=20
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On the other hand, what leaves me puzzled is the following. If these =
three quotes are all correct...
>>>=20
>>>> You cannot create an EAT unless the authenticated boot was =
successful. The key material with which to sign the EAT is inaccessible =
if authenticated boot fails (or else the device just won=E2=80=99t boot =
at all).
>>>=20
>>> draft-ietf-rats-eat-01:
>>>=20
>>>> All claims are optional
>>>=20
>>> and draft-ietf-rats-eat-01 again:
>>>=20
>>>> 3.7.  Secure Boot and Debug Enable State Claims (boot_state)
>>>>   This claim is an array of five Boolean values indicating the boot =
and
>>>>   debug state of the entity.
>>>=20
>>> ... one is allowed either to omit that Claim in an EAT or set some =
values of the Claim members to false. Therefore indicating that the boot =
state is, e.g. "secure_boot_enabled=3D> false", and still be able to =
create the EAT. Is that correct? If not, why include this member of the =
boot_state Claim at all? It always made me think until now that it =
allows for a device to not conduct "secure boot" and still be able to =
create an EAT.
>>=20
>> Yes, you are right that in some cases it would make no sense to have =
the secure boot claim. It is basically an implicit claim. Here=E2=80=99s =
some where it does make sense to have an explicit secure boot claim.
>>=20
>> The main attester might boot securely, but submods might not.
>>=20
>> It is possible to build pure HW that implements EAT attestation. It =
might be a part of a SoC. That attestation HW doesn=E2=80=99t use the =
main CPU to implement the attester, but can report on how the main CPU =
booted.
>>=20
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Besides that, what I think we are actually talking about is implicit =
and explicit attestation.
>>=20
>> Seems like you have to say which claims are implicit and which claims =
are explicit and in many attestations you need and get both.
>>=20
>> For example, you called out a situation where the secure boot claim =
is implicit and questioned the need for the claim. I then called out a =
situation where the secure boot claim is explicit.=20
>>=20
>> In one attestation the secure boot claim might be implicit and the =
GPS location is explicit.
>>=20
>> LL
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> RATS mailing list
>> RATS@ietf.org <mailto:RATS@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats =
<https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats>
> _______________________________________________
> RATS mailing list
> RATS@ietf.org
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dutf-8"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=3D"">That =
is really helpful, Monty. Thank you!<div class=3D""><br =
class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">My understanding is that TPM-based =
remote attestation is all about sending the Measured Boot result to a =
server / service that is the verifier + relying party. That is what the =
Yang module draft, before EAT was added, is about, what Guy=E2=80=99s =
RIV drafts is about, and Franke pub-sub draft is about.&nbsp;</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">My understanding is that =
Verified Boot is not directly relevant to the these just-mentioned IETF =
drafts. Devices doing remote Measured Boot might have used Verified Boot =
or might not have. It doesn=E2=80=99t matter. The remote server / =
service doesn=E2=80=99t know. It is not reported to them in the remote =
attestation.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">In =
this regard, EAT is in a way the opposite. For SW-based implementations =
of EAT, Verified Boot is critical. The EAT is of little value without =
it. The server / service trusts an EAT because the manufacturer =
committed to not putting EAT signing keys into devices that don=E2=80=99t =
implement Verified Boot.</div><div class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div =
class=3D"">Does this line up with how you understand it?</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""></div><div class=3D"">LL</div><div =
class=3D""><br class=3D""><div><br class=3D""><blockquote type=3D"cite" =
class=3D""><div class=3D"">On Nov 27, 2019, at 12:11 PM, Monty Wiseman =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:montywiseman32@gmail.com" =
class=3D"">montywiseman32@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=3D"">
 =20
    <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3DUTF-8" class=3D"">
 =20
  <div class=3D""><p class=3D""><tt class=3D"">Let's not use confusing =
terms like TPM-style / TCG language.
        I propose<br class=3D"">
        we start with lower-level fundamental definitions or even axioms
        for<br class=3D"">
        boot types. Within those definitions, I recommend deprecating
        the term<br class=3D"">
        "Secure Boot" as it's imprecise and even misleading. I expect
        there to<br class=3D"">
        be variations on these creating derivative definitions but I
        postulate<br class=3D"">
        these are fundamental as basic building blocks.<br class=3D"">
        <br class=3D"">
        Root of Trust: Something that is assumed to always operate in
        the<br class=3D"">
        expected manner. The implementation is assumed to be correct.
        How it is<br class=3D"">
        implemented it outside the scope of its definition.<br class=3D"">=

        <br class=3D"">
        Verified Boot: Starts with a Root of Trust. For this type of
        boot the<br class=3D"">
        Root of Trust is the Root of Trust for Verification (RTV). The
        RTV<br class=3D"">
        includes a boot policy which is likely a verification key. The
        RTV<br class=3D"">
        enforces the boot policy which continues through the boot
        process<br class=3D"">
        assuming each component continues enforcing the boot policy or
        other<br class=3D"">
        policies authorized by the RTV's boot policy. The trust in the
        device<br class=3D"">
        depends on the RTV's boot policy and not on any external entity
        such as a<br class=3D"">
        Verifier. The boot policy is locked by the RTV and cannot be
        further<br class=3D"">
        evaluated beyond a binary "Trusted" or "Not Trusted" state. The
        evidence<br class=3D"">
        of whether this device is trusted is, therefore, determined by
        whether<br class=3D"">
        it boot to the correct state. (Some would say this is
        "existential boot.)<br class=3D"">
        <br class=3D"">
        The TPM has no dependency on Verified Boot and Verified boot has
        no<br class=3D"">
        architectural dependence on the TPM.<br class=3D"">
        <br class=3D"">
        Measured Boot: Starts with the Root of Trust. For this type of
        boot it<br class=3D"">
        is the Root of Trust for Measurement (RTM). The RTM contains no
        boot<br class=3D"">
        policy. The device's components are recorded and stored through
        the boot<br class=3D"">
        process as each component is assumed to continue measurement
        process. At<br class=3D"">
        some time during the boot process these measurements are
        converted to<br class=3D"">
        evidence and send to a Verifier. The trust in the device depends
        on a<br class=3D"">
        Verifier's evaluation of this evidence. The Verifier has a rich
        set of<br class=3D"">
        policy options available it beyond a binary "Trusted" or "Not
        Trusted"<br class=3D"">
        state. The type of boot depends on a trusted component (such as
        a TPM)<br class=3D"">
        record and converted the measurements into evidence.<br =
class=3D"">
        <br class=3D"">
        Summary:<br class=3D"">
        The difference between Verified Boot and Measured boot is where
        the<br class=3D"">
        policy is enforced.<br class=3D"">
        <br class=3D"">
        Verified Boot:<br class=3D"">
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 1&gt; Policy is hard coded at =
boot time, is immutable, and
        binary.<br class=3D"">
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (This form of boot is =
"existential" -- The device either
        boots to<br class=3D"">
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; a valid state, or not)<br =
class=3D"">
        <br class=3D"">
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2&gt; Is simpler to implement but =
less flexible<br class=3D"">
        <br class=3D"">
        Measured Boot:<br class=3D"">
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 1&gt; The trust state is =
determined by a Verifier using
        evidence<br class=3D"">
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; about the device and a flexible =
set of policies.<br class=3D"">
        <br class=3D"">
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2&gt; Is more complex to =
implement but more flexible.<br class=3D"">
        <br class=3D"">
        Diagram:<br class=3D"">
        <br class=3D"">
        Verified Boot=3D=3D=3D&gt;<br class=3D"">
        <br class=3D"">
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Policy<br class=3D"">
        <br class=3D"">
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; |<br class=3D"">
        <br class=3D"">
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; V<br class=3D"">
        <br class=3D"">
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; RTV --- Component --- Component --- Component =
--- End State:<br class=3D"">
        <br class=3D"">
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; A trusted device state is created only if all =
policies were
        met<br class=3D"">
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (i.e, the device booted). If any policy was =
not met, the
        device (as<br class=3D"">
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; it is expected) doesn't really exist (it =
appears as a
        different<br class=3D"">
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; device)<br class=3D"">
        <br class=3D"">
        Measured Boot=3D=3D=3D&gt;<br class=3D"">
        <br class=3D"">
        =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
        Policy<br class=3D"">
        <br class=3D"">
        =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; |<br class=3D"">
        <br class=3D"">
        =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&n=
bsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs=
p; V<br class=3D"">
        <br class=3D"">
        &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; RTM --- Component --- Component --- Component =
--- End State:<br class=3D"">
        <br class=3D"">
        &nbsp;&nbsp; Trust State determined by a Verifier by appraising =
evidence
        collected <br class=3D"">
        &nbsp;&nbsp; using a set of policies.<br class=3D"">
        <br class=3D"">
        Monty<br class=3D"">
      </tt></p><p class=3D""><tt class=3D"">Disclaimer: This is my =
personal opinion and not that of my
        employeer or<br class=3D"">
        the Trusted Ccomputing Group. While I co-chair TCG's Trusted
        Network<br class=3D"">
        Connect and Infrastructure Working Groups, the above defintions
        have<br class=3D"">
        not been officially adopted by the TCG's Technical Committee or
        Board of<br class=3D"">
        Directors.<br class=3D"">
      </tt><br class=3D"">
    </p>
    <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">On 11/24/19 3:01 PM, Laurence =
Lundblade
      wrote:<br class=3D"">
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite" =
cite=3D"mid:F74104BF-35C6-4375-A5A0-93FFA34619B6@island-resort.com" =
class=3D"">
      <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3DUTF-8" class=3D"">
      <br class=3D"">
      <div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
        <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
          <div class=3D"">On Nov 24, 2019, at 7:31 AM, Henk Birkholz =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de" class=3D"" =
moz-do-not-send=3D"true">henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de</a>&gt;
            wrote:</div>
          <br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
          <div class=3D"">
            <div class=3D"">Hi all,<br class=3D"">
              <br class=3D"">
              in a nutshell, one of the things I tried to express is
              that the following quite is simply not correct wrt to what
              is called here the "TPM-style" (I would really like to not
              use the words "TPM-style" and not to mixing authenticated
              &amp; secure boot. Authenticated Boot is fine):<br =
class=3D"">
              &gt; Primarily the difference between TPM-style that
              doesn=E2=80=99t rely on secure boot and non-TPM-style that =
does
              rely on secure boot.<br class=3D"">
            </div>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
        </div>
        <div class=3D"">It=E2=80=99s hard to know what to call things. =
I=E2=80=99m learning the
          =E2=80=9CTCG language=E2=80=9D slowly and we=E2=80=99re also =
evolving (in the
          architecture document) a common language. I keep trying terms
          and definitions to see what sticks and what doesn=E2=80=99t. =
Pretty
          sure we agree on =E2=80=9Cattestation evidence=E2=80=9D, =
=E2=80=9Cverifier=E2=80=9D and
          =E2=80=9Cattestation result=E2=80=9D, but I don=E2=80=99t know =
what =E2=80=9Csecure boot=E2=80=9D,
          =E2=80=9Cauthenticated boot=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Ctrusted =
boot=E2=80=9D mean to you so I don=E2=80=99t
          know which term to use.</div>
        <br class=3D"">
        <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
          <div class=3D"">
            <div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
              It is never possible to create TPM structures that are
              signed Attestation Evidence, if a device that is
              explicitly intended to conduct "secure boot" did actually
              not do so successfully. That is one of the key-features of
              TPM/TSS remote attestation procedures.<br class=3D"">
            </div>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
        </div>
        <div class=3D"">It seems to me that TPM-style attestation where =
you measure
          each step in the boot sequence and report to a verifier was
          designed to work without secure boot. However I can see that
          it could also work with secure / trusted / authenticated =
boot.</div>
        <div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
        </div>
        <div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
        </div>
        <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
          <div class=3D"">
            <div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
              On the other hand, what leaves me puzzled is the
              following. If these three quotes are all correct...<br =
class=3D"">
              <br class=3D"">
              <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">You cannot create an =
EAT
                unless the authenticated boot was successful. The key
                material with which to sign the EAT is inaccessible if
                authenticated boot fails (or else the device just =
won=E2=80=99t
                boot at all).<br class=3D"">
              </blockquote>
              <br class=3D"">
              draft-ietf-rats-eat-01:<br class=3D"">
              <br class=3D"">
              <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">All claims are =
optional<br class=3D"">
              </blockquote>
              <br class=3D"">
              and draft-ietf-rats-eat-01 again:<br class=3D"">
              <br class=3D"">
              <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">3.7. &nbsp;Secure =
Boot and
                Debug Enable State Claims (boot_state)<br class=3D"">
                &nbsp;&nbsp;This claim is an array of five Boolean =
values
                indicating the boot and<br class=3D"">
                &nbsp;&nbsp;debug state of the entity.<br class=3D"">
              </blockquote>
              <br class=3D"">
              ... one is allowed either to omit that Claim in an EAT or
              set some values of the Claim members to false. Therefore
              indicating that the boot state is, e.g.
              "secure_boot_enabled=3D&gt; false", and still be able to
              create the EAT. Is that correct? If not, why include this
              member of the boot_state Claim at all? It always made me
              think until now that it allows for a device to not conduct
              "secure boot" and still be able to create an EAT.<br =
class=3D"">
            </div>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
        </div>
        <div class=3D"">Yes, you are right that in some cases it would =
make no
          sense to have the secure boot claim. It is basically an
          implicit claim. Here=E2=80=99s some where it does make sense =
to have
          an explicit secure boot claim.</div>
        <div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
        </div>
      </div>
      <blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding:
        0px;" class=3D"">
        <div class=3D"">
          <div class=3D"">The main attester might boot securely, but =
submods might
            not.</div>
        </div>
        <div class=3D"">
          <div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
          </div>
        </div>
        <div class=3D"">
          <div class=3D"">It is possible to build pure HW that =
implements EAT
            attestation. It might be a part of a SoC. That attestation
            HW doesn=E2=80=99t use the main CPU to implement the =
attester, but
            can report on how the main CPU booted.</div>
        </div>
      </blockquote>
      <div class=3D"">
        <div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
        </div>
        <div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
        </div>
        <blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"">
          <div class=3D"">
            <div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
              Besides that, what I think we are actually talking about
              is implicit and explicit attestation.<br class=3D"">
            </div>
          </div>
        </blockquote>
        <div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
        </div>
        <div class=3D"">Seems like you have to say which claims are =
implicit and
          which claims are explicit and in many attestations you need
          and get both.</div>
        <div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
        </div>
        <div class=3D"">For example, you called out a situation where =
the secure
          boot claim is implicit and questioned the need for the claim.
          I then called out a situation where the secure boot claim is
          explicit.&nbsp;</div>
        <div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
        </div>
        <div class=3D"">In one attestation the secure boot claim might =
be implicit
          and the GPS location is explicit.</div>
        <div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
        </div>
        <div class=3D"">LL</div>
        <div class=3D""><br class=3D"">
        </div>
      </div>
      <br class=3D"">
      <br class=3D"">
      <fieldset class=3D"mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
      <pre class=3D"moz-quote-pre" =
wrap=3D"">_______________________________________________
RATS mailing list
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-abbreviated" =
href=3D"mailto:RATS@ietf.org">RATS@ietf.org</a>
<a class=3D"moz-txt-link-freetext" =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats">https://www.ietf.org/m=
ailman/listinfo/rats</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
  </div>

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