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DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=github.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aXHEgZwFZmey for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2020 11:11:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from out-24.smtp.github.com (out-24.smtp.github.com [192.30.252.207]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 15EBC120077 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2020 11:11:24 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2020 11:11:22 -0800 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=github.com; s=pf2014; t=1578337882; bh=mG/ttDDzxuh5b/NtZaaF32uJ8ofUBHfLojANUFaN3cc=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:From; b=lVfzvO6V4moL0G+j9V+8rUnvJI9qQ0il6ALXJ1mYVQXwgumzt15yjLf3OaW1NPw6g 7tuQW4zo1bJ9p4zCfZL7ZapbdY9H6Tk2dhTKO5E8mpWHiOZQ80s8G4Heu7+ukQymYb 2owdR55YGD1WxCthIx8oWy40628oLd53o8HaQKaE= From: Laurence Lundblade To: rats@ietf.org Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-GitHub-Recipient-Address: rats@ietf.org X-Auto-Response-Suppress: All Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] [ietf-rats-wg/eat] efd3e2: Add nonce claim, update jti/cti text (#42) X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2020 19:11:25 -0000 Branch: refs/heads/master Home: https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat Commit: efd3e2c1217936ca454d8b666e90e1a832a46152 https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/efd3e2c1217936ca454d8b666e90e1a832a46152 Author: Laurence Lundblade Date: 2020-01-06 (Mon, 06 Jan 2020) Changed paths: M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md Log Message: ----------- Add nonce claim, update jti/cti text (#42) * Add nonce claim, update jti/cti text * Remove confusing comment about nonce transport security * Add size range for nonce and correct the CDDL From nobody Mon Jan 6 11:11:55 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06402120077 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2020 11:11:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=github.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) 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[c... X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2020 19:11:58 -0000 Branch: refs/heads/gh-pages Home: https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat Commit: fa72337be89eaff4d6e9975f38a393bf5ef7d630 https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/fa72337be89eaff4d6e9975f38a393bf5ef7d630 Author: ID Bot Date: 2020-01-06 (Mon, 06 Jan 2020) Changed paths: M issues.json Log Message: ----------- Script updating issues at 2020-01-06T19:11:53Z. [ci skip] From nobody Mon Jan 6 11:21:20 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23295120105 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2020 11:21:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=github.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h6sr2s2-WNMh for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2020 11:21:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from out-5.smtp.github.com (out-5.smtp.github.com [192.30.252.196]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1C678120077 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2020 11:21:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from github-lowworker-45eca55.ac4-iad.github.net (github-lowworker-45eca55.ac4-iad.github.net [10.52.25.70]) by smtp.github.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C35A960749 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2020 11:21:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=github.com; s=pf2014; t=1578338477; bh=28uzAkJfm7sTZzIRbuJUd6+QaVWyhA1hE93q7oK+HeU=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:From; b=A1oUfhfkWwldJ5+v+cFE6bDWK6yXQrtHkTOwVw4fxyy/tcdgzKdZOd6M3i+s6+a6B fF1FGuCixIf/kKvoq0cHfIywR9av9jAyS4T+UFAnGJSmqYNJk3Wu6ZEuBFtIDg0HOs uAqlo4c3TK39maV/zakRgbuZL3J3VtSuQX4ghbpU= Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2020 11:21:17 -0800 From: Laurence Lundblade To: rats@ietf.org Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-GitHub-Recipient-Address: rats@ietf.org X-Auto-Response-Suppress: All Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] [ietf-rats-wg/eat] e0132c: Add changes since -01 section X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2020 19:21:19 -0000 Branch: refs/heads/master Home: https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat Commit: e0132c0a3bf8abf876b8cfd88c1d92ca4d844ea1 https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/e0132c0a3bf8abf876b8cfd88c1d92ca4d844ea1 Author: Laurence Lundblade Date: 2020-01-06 (Mon, 06 Jan 2020) Changed paths: M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md Log Message: ----------- Add changes since -01 section From nobody Mon Jan 6 11:21:52 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E1E7120105 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2020 11:21:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=github.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ReAH7NxWewIf for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2020 11:21:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from out-24.smtp.github.com (out-24.smtp.github.com [192.30.252.207]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 36D91120077 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2020 11:21:48 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2020 11:21:47 -0800 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=github.com; s=pf2014; t=1578338507; bh=ATFX027QtNV9mSzVFu8WHKUwpIrf1D78Gcv/dLl2MFg=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:From; b=Ti34HfYjrK5SNAFidbolHAbzEwSTJ31MsUpkHswDwXQoK4bU2lkZbQ4yIJImrra5x p05PAkRuzBl7iU8C6HFt8G7f1odSiEPd3Emr9R3KMP3/fcvTJZY19kMS5n+0bRtJ8s IxXAfY1KQK9Y7f1I5Da3lT8L4oGciXWdQe4AowKA= From: Henk Birkholz To: rats@ietf.org Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-GitHub-Recipient-Address: rats@ietf.org X-Auto-Response-Suppress: All Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] [ietf-rats-wg/eat] b4cc10: Script updating gh-pages from e0132c0. [ci skip] X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2020 19:21:49 -0000 Branch: refs/heads/gh-pages Home: https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat Commit: b4cc10210154b88189d34f4cfdd60f8350da023e https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/b4cc10210154b88189d34f4cfdd60f8350da023e Author: ID Bot Date: 2020-01-06 (Mon, 06 Jan 2020) Changed paths: M draft-ietf-rats-eat.html M draft-ietf-rats-eat.txt M index.html Log Message: ----------- Script updating gh-pages from e0132c0. [ci skip] From nobody Mon Jan 6 11:22:00 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E0F512083E for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2020 11:21:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=github.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u9oYOv_PvDvV for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2020 11:21:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from out-17.smtp.github.com (out-17.smtp.github.com [192.30.252.200]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F1384120077 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2020 11:21:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from github-lowworker-56fcc46.va3-iad.github.net (github-lowworker-56fcc46.va3-iad.github.net [10.48.102.32]) by smtp.github.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 496126E04D6 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2020 11:21:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=github.com; s=pf2014; t=1578338511; bh=R5rTHyBhdE1HAUECDnpdW0FwwN3B+v3WbODIYuoJIPs=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:From; b=ZxQHMoUEL7zD2Phfy8IB++FtZUNpAlSkMb7slA8apeqm31+aQDLG2V7IpRXxqLlm0 z8QmmU/nkOvre3qZ8697qgGnk9D1DV33RqkGXYvbzYJmBW7zcwwvzyi9hMjFQdpQmX EW1NLF9M4gC2LHmydtQpsCrDQ8/0NQ/vPWIVHdLg= Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2020 11:21:51 -0800 From: Henk Birkholz To: rats@ietf.org Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-GitHub-Recipient-Address: rats@ietf.org X-Auto-Response-Suppress: All Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] [ietf-rats-wg/eat] f01d50: Script updating issues at 2020-01-06T19:21:48Z. [c... X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2020 19:21:58 -0000 Branch: refs/heads/gh-pages Home: https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat Commit: f01d50cf35c6f3b95c2493f6157bbd7f55b4f7dc https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/f01d50cf35c6f3b95c2493f6157bbd7f55b4f7dc Author: ID Bot Date: 2020-01-06 (Mon, 06 Jan 2020) Changed paths: M pulls.json Log Message: ----------- Script updating issues at 2020-01-06T19:21:48Z. [ci skip] From nobody Mon Jan 6 12:39:35 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA14B120108 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2020 12:39:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=github.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8FHR0ZnLR1Xt for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2020 12:39:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from out-7.smtp.github.com (out-7.smtp.github.com [192.30.252.198]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C08361200CE for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2020 12:39:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from github-lowworker-cd7bc13.ac4-iad.github.net (github-lowworker-cd7bc13.ac4-iad.github.net [10.52.25.102]) by smtp.github.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3AAA2C0E59 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2020 12:39:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=github.com; s=pf2014; t=1578343170; bh=tSgLBWFHVNcUhfQn8OtXqnyO9O4OLhXCFHl98cdIbNg=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:From; b=i9zD6pvdawMNfLBr4kaxNFRPv13VZz/DAiInydix2rttMltRgWtWIwXD0BFK80ZCs MkYJ6gAm+BDpeNAr9yOelWlSeQUpwhgz0kREXA/M8m7LCnRGcxvJG4P8yExma1L6UV Y34Vhdnhqonsgx0xSUJbGXdl+dT3DJvP+jaHjKYI= Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2020 12:39:30 -0800 From: Laurence Lundblade To: rats@ietf.org Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-GitHub-Recipient-Address: rats@ietf.org X-Auto-Response-Suppress: All Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] [ietf-rats-wg/eat] 633edd: 128 bit UEIDs allowed, 256 optional; improve analy... X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2020 20:39:33 -0000 Branch: refs/heads/256bitUEID Home: https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat Commit: 633edd9c49d7694392f10c534277c708106d5c8f https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/633edd9c49d7694392f10c534277c708106d5c8f Author: Laurence Lundblade Date: 2020-01-06 (Mon, 06 Jan 2020) Changed paths: M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md Log Message: ----------- 128 bit UEIDs allowed, 256 optional; improve analysis in appendix From nobody Mon Jan 6 12:48:01 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35E3A120108 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2020 12:47:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.897 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.897 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tD2UW1H0lBM8 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2020 12:47:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from p3plsmtpa11-04.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa11-04.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [68.178.252.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D2AAF1200CE for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2020 12:47:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.76] ([76.167.193.86]) by :SMTPAUTH: with ESMTPA id oZI4iiU7t45rToZI4ikHhF; Mon, 06 Jan 2020 13:47:56 -0700 From: Laurence Lundblade Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_02D28273-E45B-40D9-B9F5-EB5742E247AC" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Message-Id: Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2020 12:47:56 -0800 To: rats@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfPsZv7PZq+F1SlNHY2hC4T4cKN39XP0pA0gu6O9AK3OwvYKMC33DyfJnD/GluFTGGpOvmKyyJ0btNQyfX6zi1ydAhu6izoE8V4B0rFEuYyeX9jvmcxbs NCU3U719FH0vKaHo1Av2jwkr4Xfyu7flN98Kpi2wgJ2prMVhIBmCb73s Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] Progressing the eat draft X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2020 20:47:59 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_02D28273-E45B-40D9-B9F5-EB5742E247AC Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 A -02 should will be published shortly with some small changes I hope to publish an -03 draft before Vancouver with: - All the CDDL fixed - UEID size analysis appendix = - Revised submods =20 - Debug and boot state I=E2=80=99m hoping we can get to consensus in email, the virtual = interims, and the possible interim in Berlin. I=E2=80=99m purposely focusing on closure of these before going on to = CoSWID and public keys. LL --Apple-Mail=_02D28273-E45B-40D9-B9F5-EB5742E247AC Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
A -02 should will be published shortly with some small = changes

I hope = to publish an -03 draft before Vancouver with:
 =  - All the CDDL fixed
   - UEID = size analysis appendix
   - Revised = submods 
   - Debug = and boot state

I=E2=80=99m hoping we can get to consensus in email, the = virtual interims, and the possible interim in Berlin.

I=E2=80=99m purposely = focusing on closure of these before going on to CoSWID and public = keys.

LL


= --Apple-Mail=_02D28273-E45B-40D9-B9F5-EB5742E247AC-- From nobody Mon Jan 6 14:05:43 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D68CF12007A for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2020 14:05:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z4AYPcpqMdfj for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2020 14:05:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E295F120033 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2020 14:05:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 191FB3897A for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2020 17:05:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83C89A71 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 2020 17:05:39 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson to: rats@ietf.org In-Reply-To: <10720.1577428307@localhost> References: <0000000000004f23a30598d09969@google.com> <6053.1575410315@localhost> <10720.1577428307@localhost> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] reminder: architecture design team tomorrow (2020-01-07) X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2020 22:05:43 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Michael Richardson wrote: > Michael Richardson wrote: >> The meeting technology has been changed to webex. A new ICS was sent >> to the list, and to anyone who RSVPed already. The new URL is: >> https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=m3f95c936acbfe3c99b6f7939f95b9876 >> Meeting number: 644 129 723 Password: T2Beya6D >> the time is 16:00 UTC on Tuesdays. > To be clear, there is no meeting planned for Dec. 31. > The next meeting is planned for Jan. 7. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl4TrzMACgkQgItw+93Q 3WXDegf9EvSQtsfdHXbR75PuWwX+YcAD4FqM8VI0Mz2UI5YFBJO8g5Qk3LYuprQu +H89CIVSdBU9rS0eegV+XfpKI1rqBOcUW3cRYLHXSScXJmkpLr0hLCV8vvPuyZ4S JmQDkRM2XlOH/gVaB1nWppobnusYkV3hEj4yP0pz1OvegUv84zSbO7WwmhP0tHGq u9EX5qjOZVg5IULa7FJjzV9pmIkDp9u7i/dMXuVPoJzGS2cDtA/4kMt7xOgvmwOG iWIUeS2s+MqjsP+0kFZX+lQcrPC7xTOz49qce6FINKrH9gJ40W2HkkzoTmjfioUE 88XV75o0UjA32cLO0Xm4Rl4Lgj6vkg== =HhyK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Jan 7 08:04:19 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26B801200E0 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2020 08:04:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lSlqIsL552-D for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2020 08:04:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4B320120052 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2020 08:04:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 962D23897A for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2020 11:03:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 179EA60A for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2020 11:04:11 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: rats@ietf.org X-Attribution: mcr X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] looking for better terms -- request for bike shed discussion X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2020 16:04:17 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain None of us have been happy with the confusion due to the alliterative terms "Attesting Environment"(1) and "Attested Environment"(2) We agree that (1) *measures* (2). We think that we could keep one of the terms (1) or (2) if we could come with a different enough term for the other. There is an issue open: https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/architecture/issues/14 I asked Google, "What is a person who measures", and the answer it gave me was "surveyor". There was criticism of this term because it sounds too active. (To "survey" in the civil engineering sense is quite active) What do you think? https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/surveyor?s=t assessor cartographer measurer land surveyor mapmaker topographer https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/survey?s=t includes a bunch of interesting words, some of which we use already: assess canvass check check out estimate evaluate examine inspect look over observe overlook oversee review scan supervise appraise assay case contemplate measure plan plot prospect rate read reconnoiter research scope size study summarize superintend valuate value view check over check up give the once over look upon set at size up stake out test the waters -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl4Uq/oACgkQgItw+93Q 3WUdtAf/amdFtD2Dy+Ayxpic+DrE774N2zCD2fZoh4Kez2w3jMC88tcImVvTdAUI ndezAL2vpzAQ0TgemHTjJd7PzCQmZg+2S+bJ6X4HaAIbwsamNweCIN7bgn34YD5o MrsIvmKRkmTGF4VHPsNeiukrpIKdiu+MqKSpkGQXd/1pRLw2WiiMfr9EgS6um/1W riNer4sgPzuE83c14bx3Hy2X7LAuBtAOM34TwXKYiOmWNqd6aaTsrOkaOVW2CVLw NXkuHzkzWmwUNcj8owRcU542KeZPrsynaSRmulqQlTlyX4VUmx3aUtoQ2Zt7IonW SLQPFhyGRLaMN19GeOMrt5EmjFucng== =58Vt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Tue Jan 7 08:12:34 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F347F12012E for ; 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Tue, 7 Jan 2020 08:12:26 -0800 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.53]) by prod-mail-ppoint5.akamai.com with ESMTP id 2xasjaw5yf-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 07 Jan 2020 08:12:26 -0800 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB3.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.103) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1473.3; Tue, 7 Jan 2020 11:12:25 -0500 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB3.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.103]) by usma1ex-dag1mb3.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.103]) with mapi id 15.00.1473.005; Tue, 7 Jan 2020 11:12:25 -0500 From: "Salz, Rich" To: Michael Richardson , "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Rats] looking for better terms -- request for bike shed discussion Thread-Index: AQHVxXQh9gerg572IEWipjdnMH4+4KffX5WA Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 16:12:24 +0000 Message-ID: References: <26979.1578413051@localhost> In-Reply-To: <26979.1578413051@localhost> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.21.0.200104 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.19.118.13] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2020-01-07_05:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=729 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1911140001 definitions=main-2001070133 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:6.0.138, 18.0.572 definitions=2020-01-07_05:2020-01-07, 2020-01-07 signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 priorityscore=1501 suspectscore=0 adultscore=0 malwarescore=0 bulkscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxlogscore=701 spamscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 clxscore=1011 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-1910280000 definitions=main-2001070133 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] looking for better terms -- request for bike shed discussion X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2020 16:12:33 -0000 PiAgICBOb25lIG9mIHVzIGhhdmUgYmVlbiBoYXBweSB3aXRoIHRoZSBjb25mdXNpb24gZHVlIHRv IHRoZSBhbGxpdGVyYXRpdmUNCiAgICB0ZXJtcyAiQXR0ZXN0aW5nIEVudmlyb25tZW50IigxKSBh bmQgIkF0dGVzdGVkIEVudmlyb25tZW50IigyKQ0KICANClRoZXNlIHRlcm1zIGFyZW4ndCBncmVh dCwgYnV0IHRoZXkgc2VlbSB0byBiZSB3aWRlbHkgdXNlZCBpbiBpbmR1c3RyeS4NCg0KQWRkaW5n IGFzIG5ldyAiYmV0dGVyIiB0ZXJtIHdpbGwgbm90IGhlbHAuICBQbGVhc2UgZG9uJ3QuDQoNCklm IHlvdSBuZWVkIG5vdW5zIHRvIGluZGljYXRlIHRoZSBlbnRpdGllcyBvcGVyYXRpbmcgYXMgKDEp IG9yICgyKSwgdGhlbiBwZXJoYXBzIGF0dGVzdG9yIGFuZCB2ZXJpZmllci4NCg0KDQo= From nobody Tue Jan 7 08:38:12 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 951FF120847 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2020 08:38:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.898 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qID8zlEtmZjH for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2020 08:38:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from p3plsmtpa12-07.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa12-07.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [68.178.252.236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6166312086F for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2020 08:37:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.76] ([76.167.193.86]) by :SMTPAUTH: with ESMTPA id orrEi7azEV7OborrEiak4M; Tue, 07 Jan 2020 09:37:29 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Laurence Lundblade In-Reply-To: <26979.1578413051@localhost> Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 08:37:28 -0800 Cc: rats@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <6291CF16-BBDC-4A12-A0C0-FDFBAB494A31@island-resort.com> References: <26979.1578413051@localhost> To: Michael Richardson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfFbrAJHZYxZAMqj33DNMkFHGwpP0zMKu43NANyCDJAayUHkAkxAi8zfzLO1JpRYutIxwVnVpzO2zp18jrBIVObQ7npAzGDQOwbiNmmHD5x0AbgKIWu1s 025kTN+ReQ6hkMokvCBrpmF202f1xXPJ45/MfJl0/C4/wfIqtfYNW2VkSmrQIHEG8vIpZctRnl39HbiVTivOUuitWxWxXLiBcjg= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] looking for better terms -- request for bike shed discussion X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2020 16:38:11 -0000 How about (1) =E2=80=9Cattester" and (2) =E2=80=9Ctarget" or = =E2=80=9Csubject=E2=80=9D?=20 Currently the EAT draft roughly uses =E2=80=9Centity=E2=80=9D and = =E2=80=9Csubmodule=E2=80=9D for (2), but only roughly because it = doesn=E2=80=99t distinguish between (1) and (2). Attestation is not certification, but somewhat similarly Common Criteria = certification uses =E2=80=9Ctarget of evaluation=E2=80=9D. LL > On Jan 7, 2020, at 8:04 AM, Michael Richardson = wrote: >=20 >=20 > None of us have been happy with the confusion due to the alliterative > terms "Attesting Environment"(1) and "Attested Environment"(2) >=20 > We agree that (1) *measures* (2). >=20 > We think that we could keep one of the terms (1) or (2) if we could = come with > a different enough term for the other. There is an issue open: > https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/architecture/issues/14 >=20 > I asked Google, "What is a person who measures", and the answer it = gave me > was "surveyor". There was criticism of this term because it sounds = too > active. (To "survey" in the civil engineering sense is quite active) >=20 > What do you think? >=20 > https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/surveyor?s=3Dt >=20 > assessor > cartographer > measurer > land surveyor > mapmaker > topographer >=20 >=20 > https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/survey?s=3Dt >=20 > includes a bunch of interesting words, some of which we use already: >=20 > assess > canvass > check > check out > estimate > evaluate > examine > inspect > look over > observe > overlook > oversee > review > scan > supervise > appraise > assay > case > contemplate > measure > plan > plot > prospect > rate > read > reconnoiter > research > scope > size > study > summarize > superintend > valuate > value > view > check over > check up > give the once over > look upon > set at > size up > stake out > test the waters >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list 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DQo+IF9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+IFJB VFMgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQo+IFJBVFNAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcv bWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9yYXRzDQoNCi0tIA0KSnVlcmdlbiBTY2hvZW53YWVsZGVyICAgICAg ICAgICBKYWNvYnMgVW5pdmVyc2l0eSBCcmVtZW4gZ0dtYkgNClBob25lOiArNDkgNDIxIDIwMCAz NTg3ICAgICAgICAgQ2FtcHVzIFJpbmcgMSB8IDI4NzU5IEJyZW1lbiB8IEdlcm1hbnkNCkZheDog ICArNDkgNDIxIDIwMCAzMTAzICAgICAgICAgPGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmphY29icy11bml2ZXJzaXR5 LmRlLz4NCg== From nobody Tue Jan 7 12:55:01 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietf.org Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D54412080C; Tue, 7 Jan 2020 12:54:53 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: rats@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.115.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rats@ietf.org Message-ID: <157843049355.20905.9513133499435687267@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2020 12:54:53 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rats-yang-tpm-charra-00.txt X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2020 20:54:54 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Remote ATtestation ProcedureS WG of the IETF. Title : A YANG Data Model for Challenge-Response-based Remote Attestation Procedures using TPMs Authors : Henk Birkholz Michael Eckel Shwetha Bhandari Bill Sulzen Eric Voit Liang Xia (Frank) Tom Laffey Guy C. Fedorkow Filename : draft-ietf-rats-yang-tpm-charra-00.txt Pages : 32 Date : 2020-01-07 Abstract: This document defines a YANG RPC and a minimal datastore tree required to retrieve attestation evidence about integrity measurements from a composite device with one or more roots of trust for reporting. Complementary measurement logs are also provided by the YANG RPC originating from one or more roots of trust of measurement. The module defined requires at least one TPM 1.2 or TPM 2.0 and corresponding Trusted Software Stack included in the device components of the composite device the YANG server is running on. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rats-yang-tpm-charra/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rats-yang-tpm-charra-00 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-rats-yang-tpm-charra-00 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Tue Jan 7 13:43:46 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 375DF1200E7 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2020 13:43:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FhB1_Uj8Isvx for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2020 13:43:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mga02.intel.com (mga02.intel.com [134.134.136.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No 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Laurence Lundblade CC: Michael Richardson , "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Rats] looking for better terms -- request for bike shed discussion Thread-Index: AQHVxXQlCbKWYp19fkKQpfqMAhzvLqff7LMAgAAExoD//8qrAA== Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 21:43:40 +0000 Message-ID: References: <26979.1578413051@localhost> <6291CF16-BBDC-4A12-A0C0-FDFBAB494A31@island-resort.com> <20200107165432.zmpm6yilgr6fogrh@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> In-Reply-To: <20200107165432.zmpm6yilgr6fogrh@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.20.0.191208 x-originating-ip: [10.24.10.200] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] looking for better terms -- request for bike shed discussion X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , 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X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF7651200F5 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2020 18:17:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.916 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.916 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id INtdbx084V_H for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2020 18:17:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from p3plsmtpa07-01.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa07-01.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [173.201.192.230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CB98A12007C for ; Tue, 7 Jan 2020 18:17:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.76] ([76.167.193.86]) by :SMTPAUTH: with ESMTPA id p0uUiXMhdS6lxp0uUim3LL; Tue, 07 Jan 2020 19:17:26 -0700 From: Laurence Lundblade Message-Id: <0FB69139-54DE-4F1B-906F-12B83D1EDEED@island-resort.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_16EDBD02-7C8D-4146-872A-D2BFE8475616" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2020 18:17:25 -0800 In-Reply-To: Cc: =?utf-8?B?IlNjaMO2bnfDpGxkZXIsIErDvHJnZW4i?= , Michael Richardson , "rats@ietf.org" To: "Smith, Ned" References: <26979.1578413051@localhost> <6291CF16-BBDC-4A12-A0C0-FDFBAB494A31@island-resort.com> <20200107165432.zmpm6yilgr6fogrh@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfE39/nk6c0eqdZViEHrDFhKqzYlc2FTkd7JOxTMt3eUqaWwSQ/auV8CaqKTWo6lH4G27Ld/kFJsOxpJro0rTFsvzFRdV0VaESMgggEHDhxmVmAZgIS73 1UVbA56vTBls62MPpZtOKxG6sq4m4Vm4llPLHjGmqGuVT0LpKU8Z0DS4ZM65E/OKLSrPdpfnOY0xkNM63kKGsM2BzvbbNeB26Se4UeIOGEJJEs5ngVeoAs7A vtqLm1qp9Wn4WAIOO93PuCxmX13Prpf3IACAaOBmlN7iVwvOYdw/gbsjZAmfyfGq Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] looking for better terms -- request for bike shed discussion X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2020 02:17:34 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_16EDBD02-7C8D-4146-872A-D2BFE8475616 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Here=E2=80=99s some rough text: Conceptually, the =E2=80=9Cattester=E2=80=9D produces a set of = =E2=80=9Cclaims=E2=80=9D about a =E2=80=9Ctarget=E2=80=9D. The claims = are known as =E2=80=9Cattestation evidence=E2=80=9D and are sent to the = =E2=80=9Cverifier=E2=80=9D. The verifier additionally takes in = =E2=80=9Cendorsements=E2=80=9D, processes the attestation evidence and = produces the =E2=80=9Cattestation result=E2=80=9D for the final = consumer, the =E2=80=9Crelying party=E2=80=9D. This description left conceptual for easy understanding and discussion. = Actual implementations are usually more complex in at least one or more = of these ways: * The attester is also the target * One attester produces claims about several targets (submodules) * The verifier and the relying party are the same * Claims may be simple or complex, many or few * Some claims are measurements and some are not * Some claims in in the attestation evidence may be simply passed = through the verifier, others may be heavily processed. * Daisy chaining -- the evidence from one attester goes through a = verifier producing results which are taken as claims that are input to = another attester that outputs a different set of evidence that goes on = through a different verifier. * Daisy chaining may happen on the device producing the attestations or = in the infrastructure evaluating the device or both. (Next I=E2=80=99d write a plethoras of simple examples for attester, = target, claims=E2=80=A6 assuming only the simplest implementation that = maps to the conceptual description ) I am starting to prefer the basic conceptual / abstract description over = one that is inherently mappable to every possible. LL =20 > On Jan 7, 2020, at 1:43 PM, Smith, Ned wrote: >=20 > It may be helpful to note that the Attester may not be the same as the = environment that measures. In some cases it is the same but not in all = cases. The Attester contains both (1) and (2) so it seems we don't want = to overload (1) or (2) with a term that is the superset of both.=20 >=20 > If there is consensus terminology for either (1) or (2) then we only = need to change one of them.=20 >=20 > The analogy to CC seems somewhat apropos as attestation could be = described as the partial automation of a (manual) certification process. = Indeed, the result of CC evaluation could be a claim in a manifest or = certificate issued by an Endorser. The Verifier likely would expect to = find an overlap between the ToE and the "Attested Environment". >=20 > -Ned >=20 >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 1/7/20, 8:54 AM, "RATS on behalf of Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder, = J=C3=BCrgen" wrote: >=20 > Attesterr and target have also been my first thought... >=20 > /js >=20 > On Tue, Jan 07, 2020 at 08:37:28AM -0800, Laurence Lundblade wrote: >> How about (1) =E2=80=9Cattester" and (2) =E2=80=9Ctarget" or = =E2=80=9Csubject=E2=80=9D?=20 >>=20 >> Currently the EAT draft roughly uses =E2=80=9Centity=E2=80=9D and = =E2=80=9Csubmodule=E2=80=9D for (2), but only roughly because it = doesn=E2=80=99t distinguish between (1) and (2). >>=20 >> Attestation is not certification, but somewhat similarly Common = Criteria certification uses =E2=80=9Ctarget of evaluation=E2=80=9D. >>=20 >> LL >>=20 >>> On Jan 7, 2020, at 8:04 AM, Michael Richardson = wrote: >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> None of us have been happy with the confusion due to the = alliterative >>> terms "Attesting Environment"(1) and "Attested Environment"(2) >>>=20 >>> We agree that (1) *measures* (2). >>>=20 >>> We think that we could keep one of the terms (1) or (2) if we could = come with >>> a different enough term for the other. There is an issue open: >>> https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/architecture/issues/14 >>>=20 >>> I asked Google, "What is a person who measures", and the answer it = gave me >>> was "surveyor". There was criticism of this term because it sounds = too >>> active. (To "survey" in the civil engineering sense is quite active) >>>=20 >>> What do you think? >>>=20 >>> https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/surveyor?s=3Dt >>>=20 >>> assessor >>> cartographer >>> measurer >>> land surveyor >>> mapmaker >>> topographer >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/survey?s=3Dt >>>=20 >>> includes a bunch of interesting words, some of which we use already: >>>=20 >>> assess >>> canvass >>> check >>> check out >>> estimate >>> evaluate >>> examine >>> inspect >>> look over >>> observe >>> overlook >>> oversee >>> review >>> scan >>> supervise >>> appraise >>> assay >>> case >>> contemplate >>> measure >>> plan >>> plot >>> prospect >>> rate >>> read >>> reconnoiter >>> research >>> scope >>> size >>> study >>> summarize >>> superintend >>> valuate >>> value >>> view >>> check over >>> check up >>> give the once over >>> look upon >>> set at >>> size up >>> stake out >>> test the waters >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> -- >>> Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works >>> -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> RATS mailing list >>> RATS@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> RATS mailing list >> RATS@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats >=20 > --=20 > Juergen Schoenwaelder Jacobs University Bremen gGmbH > Phone: +49 421 200 3587 Campus Ring 1 | 28759 Bremen | = Germany > Fax: +49 421 200 3103 > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_16EDBD02-7C8D-4146-872A-D2BFE8475616 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Here=E2=80=99s some rough text:

Conceptually, the = =E2=80=9Cattester=E2=80=9D produces a set of =E2=80=9Cclaims=E2=80=9D = about a =E2=80=9Ctarget=E2=80=9D. The claims are known as =E2=80=9Cattesta= tion evidence=E2=80=9D and are sent to the =E2=80=9Cverifier=E2=80=9D. = The verifier additionally takes in =E2=80=9Cendorsements=E2=80=9D, = processes the attestation evidence and produces the =E2=80=9Cattestation = result=E2=80=9D for the final consumer, the =E2=80=9Crelying = party=E2=80=9D.

This description left conceptual for easy understanding and = discussion. Actual implementations are usually more complex in at least = one or more of these ways:

* The = attester is also the target
* = One attester produces claims about several targets = (submodules)
* The verifier = and the relying party are the same
* Claims may be = simple or complex, many or few
* Some claims are = measurements and some are not
* Some claims in in = the attestation evidence may be simply passed through the verifier, = others may be heavily processed.
* Daisy chaining =  -- the evidence from one attester goes through a verifier = producing results which are taken as claims that are input to another = attester that outputs a different set of evidence that goes on through a = different verifier.
* Daisy chaining may happen on = the device producing the attestations or in the infrastructure = evaluating the device or both.

(Next I=E2=80=99d write a plethoras of = simple examples for attester, target, claims=E2=80=A6 assuming only the = simplest implementation that maps to the conceptual description )


I am starting = to prefer the basic conceptual / abstract description over one that is = inherently mappable to every possible.

LL



 



On Jan 7, 2020, at 1:43 PM, = Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com> wrote:

It = may be helpful to note that the Attester may not be the same as the = environment that measures. In some cases it is the same but not in all = cases. The Attester contains both (1) and (2) so it seems we don't want = to overload (1) or (2) with a term that is the superset of both.

If there is consensus terminology for either = (1) or (2) then we only need to change one of them.

The analogy to CC seems somewhat apropos as attestation could = be described as the partial automation of a (manual) certification = process. Indeed, the result of CC evaluation could be a claim in a = manifest or certificate issued by an Endorser. The Verifier likely would = expect to find an overlap between the ToE and the "Attested = Environment".

-Ned


=EF=BB=BFOn 1/7/20, 8:54 AM, "RATS on behalf = of Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder, J=C3=BCrgen" <rats-bounces@ietf.org= on behalf of J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de> wrote:

   Attesterr and target have = also been my first thought...

=    /js

   On = Tue, Jan 07, 2020 at 08:37:28AM -0800, Laurence Lundblade wrote:
How about (1) = =E2=80=9Cattester" and (2) =E2=80=9Ctarget" or =E2=80=9Csubject=E2=80=9D? =

Currently the EAT draft roughly uses = =E2=80=9Centity=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Csubmodule=E2=80=9D for (2), but = only roughly because it doesn=E2=80=99t distinguish between (1) and = (2).

Attestation is not certification, but = somewhat similarly Common Criteria certification uses =E2=80=9Ctarget of = evaluation=E2=80=9D.

LL

On Jan 7, 2020, at 8:04 = AM, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca> wrote:


None of us have been happy with the confusion = due to the alliterative
terms "Attesting Environment"(1) = and "Attested Environment"(2)

We agree that = (1) *measures* (2).

We think that we could = keep one of the terms (1) or (2) if we could come with
a = different enough term for the other.  There is an issue open:
https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/architecture/issues/14

I asked Google, "What is a person who = measures", and the answer it gave me
was "surveyor". =  There was criticism of this term because it sounds too
active. (To "survey" in the civil engineering sense is quite = active)

What do you think?

https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/surveyor?s=3Dt

assessor
cartographer
measurer
land surveyor
mapmaker
topographer


https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/survey?s=3Dt
includes a bunch of interesting words, some of which we use = already:

assess
canvass
check
check out
estimate
evaluate
examine
inspect
look over
observe
overlook
oversee
review
scan
supervise
appraise
assay
case
contemplate
measure
plan
plot
prospect
rate
read
reconnoiter
research
scope
size
study
summarize
superintend
valuate
value
view
check over
check up
give the once = over
look upon
set at
size = up
stake out
test the waters



--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman = Software Works
-=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D-



_______________________________________________
RATS mailing list
RATS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats

_______________________________________________
RATS mailing list
RATS@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats

   --
   Juergen Schoenwaelder =           Jacobs = University Bremen gGmbH
   Phone: +49 421 = 200 3587         Campus Ring 1 | = 28759 Bremen | Germany
   Fax: =   +49 421 200 3103 =         <https://www.jacobs-university.de/>
=    _______________________________________________
   RATS mailing list
=    RATS@ietf.org
   https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats



= --Apple-Mail=_16EDBD02-7C8D-4146-872A-D2BFE8475616-- From nobody Wed Jan 8 11:35:00 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A87D1200CC for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2020 11:34:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2x3-e8MgkZJ3 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2020 11:34:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 575B512011B for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2020 11:34:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id C33663897B; Wed, 8 Jan 2020 14:34:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFEE371D; Wed, 8 Jan 2020 14:34:54 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Laurence Lundblade cc: "Smith\, Ned" , =?us-ascii?Q?=3D=3Futf-8=3FB=3FIlNjaMO2bnfDpGxkZXIsIErDvHJnZW4i=3F=3D?= , "rats\@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: <0FB69139-54DE-4F1B-906F-12B83D1EDEED@island-resort.com> References: <26979.1578413051@localhost> <6291CF16-BBDC-4A12-A0C0-FDFBAB494A31@island-resort.com> <20200107165432.zmpm6yilgr6fogrh@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <0FB69139-54DE-4F1B-906F-12B83D1EDEED@island-resort.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 24.5.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] looking for better terms -- request for bike shed discussion X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2020 19:34:58 -0000 Thank you for this very nice text. I rather like it. Laurence Lundblade wrote: > Here=E2=80=99s some rough text: > Conceptually, the =E2=80=9Cattester=E2=80=9D produces a set of =E2=80= =9Cclaims=E2=80=9D about a =E2=80=9Ctarget=E2=80=9D. > The claims are known as =E2=80=9Cattestation evidence=E2=80=9D and ar= e sent to the > =E2=80=9Cverifier=E2=80=9D. The verifier additionally takes in =E2=80= =9Cendorsements=E2=80=9D, processes > the attestation evidence and produces the =E2=80=9Cattestation result= =E2=80=9D for the > final consumer, the =E2=80=9Crelying party=E2=80=9D. > This description left conceptual for easy understanding and discussio= n. > Actual implementations are usually more complex in at least one or mo= re > of these ways: > * The attester is also the target > * One attester produces claims about several targets (submodules) > * The verifier and the relying party are the same > * Claims may be simple or complex, many or few > * Some claims are measurements and some are not > * Some claims in in the attestation evidence may be simply passed > through the verifier, others may be heavily processed. > * Daisy chaining -- the evidence from one attester goes through a > verifier producing results which are taken as claims that are input > to another attester that outputs a different set of evidence that > goes on through a different verifier. > * Daisy chaining may happen on the device producing the attestations > or in the infrastructure evaluating the device or both. > (Next I=E2=80=99d write a plethoras of simple examples for attester, = target, > claims=E2=80=A6 assuming only the simplest implementation that maps t= o the > conceptual description ) > I am starting to prefer the basic conceptual / abstract description o= ver one > that is inherently mappable to every possible. > LL From nobody Wed Jan 8 15:39:29 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22A92120124; Wed, 8 Jan 2020 15:39:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, 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([fe80::c50e:86ef:6bf3:d535%9]) with mapi id 15.20.2644.002; Thu, 9 Jan 2020 00:02:41 +0000 From: Dave Thaler To: Michael Richardson , Laurence Lundblade CC: =?utf-8?B?IlNjaMO2bnfDpGxkZXIsIErDvHJnZW4i?= , "Smith, Ned" , "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Rats] looking for better terms -- request for bike shed discussion Thread-Index: AQHVxXRNHlBPWqb3kESfZ0AtIRfNEqffZpYAgAAExoCAAFDHAIAATH2AgAEh3gCAAElhEA== Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2020 00:02:41 +0000 Message-ID: References: <26979.1578413051@localhost> <6291CF16-BBDC-4A12-A0C0-FDFBAB494A31@island-resort.com> <20200107165432.zmpm6yilgr6fogrh@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <0FB69139-54DE-4F1B-906F-12B83D1EDEED@island-resort.com> <31998.1578512094@localhost> In-Reply-To: <31998.1578512094@localhost> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: msip_labels: MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Enabled=True; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_SiteId=72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47; 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cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 9 Jan 2020 01:10:21 +0100 Received: from [192.168.43.221] (80.187.105.98) by mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (141.12.84.171) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.468.0; Thu, 9 Jan 2020 01:10:15 +0100 To: Dave Thaler , Michael Richardson , Laurence Lundblade CC: "Smith, Ned" , =?UTF-8?B?U2Now7Zud8OkbGRlciwgSsO8cmdlbg==?= , "rats@ietf.org" References: <26979.1578413051@localhost> <6291CF16-BBDC-4A12-A0C0-FDFBAB494A31@island-resort.com> <20200107165432.zmpm6yilgr6fogrh@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <0FB69139-54DE-4F1B-906F-12B83D1EDEED@island-resort.com> <31998.1578512094@localhost> From: Henk Birkholz Message-ID: <907cad7b-b09f-ded2-ff74-b68d165d3127@sit.fraunhofer.de> Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2020 01:10:14 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.2.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [80.187.105.98] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] looking for better terms -- request for bike shed discussion X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2020 00:10:34 -0000 Hm... on one hand, this seems to imply that the "attester role" in this chain does not reside on the same "entity" (in other words, multiple entities are composing the chain with their individual attester roles). If that is what you were trying to state, I am uncertain what problem this would address. On the other hand, maybe there is a use case for this? Alas, I am under the impression that this route could imply a tremendous increase of architectural complexity. On 09.01.20 01:02, Dave Thaler wrote: > I don't think I have any problems with Laurence's terminology but just to test it... > > We have devices running Trusted Apps on OP-TEE over trusted firmware on an ARM TrustZone processor. > The full evidence is a DICE cert chain that has a set of claims for each cert in the chain, where each layer is an attesting environment for the subsequent layer (attested environment): > Hardware -> Trusted Firmware -> OP-TEE -> TA > Thus there are four claim sets in a chain. > > Using Laurence's terminology, I believe the suggestion is that attesting environment is an "attester" and an attested environment is a "target". Thus the example above has 3 attesters (Hardware, TFW, and OP-TEE), and 4 targets (HW where target == attester, TFW, OP-TEE, and TA). > > Are you ok with saying that every claimset in a chain is from a separate "attester"? I believe this is different from our current definition of Attester (which is the thing that sends the whole chain to a verifier), so want to confirm. > > Dave > > -----Original Message----- > From: RATS On Behalf Of Michael Richardson > Sent: Wednesday, January 8, 2020 11:35 AM > To: Laurence Lundblade > Cc: =?utf-8?B?IlNjaMO2bnfDpGxkZXIsIErDvHJnZW4i?= ; Smith, Ned ; rats@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Rats] looking for better terms -- request for bike shed discussion > > > Thank you for this very nice text. I rather like it. > > Laurence Lundblade wrote: > > Here’s some rough text: > > > Conceptually, the “attester” produces a set of “claims” about a “target”. > > The claims are known as “attestation evidence” and are sent to the > > “verifier”. The verifier additionally takes in “endorsements”, processes > > the attestation evidence and produces the “attestation result” for the > > final consumer, the “relying party”. > > > > This description left conceptual for easy understanding and discussion. > > Actual implementations are usually more complex in at least one or more > > of these ways: > > > > > * The attester is also the target > > > > * One attester produces claims about several targets (submodules) > > > > * The verifier and the relying party are the same > > * Claims may be simple or complex, many or few > > * Some claims are measurements and some are not > > * Some claims in in the attestation evidence may be simply passed > > through the verifier, others may be heavily processed. > > * Daisy chaining -- the evidence from one attester goes through a > > verifier producing results which are taken as claims that are input > > to another attester that outputs a different set of evidence that > > goes on through a different verifier. > > * Daisy chaining may happen on the device producing the attestations > > or in the infrastructure evaluating the device or both. > > > > (Next I’d write a plethoras of simple examples for attester, target, > > claims… assuming only the simplest implementation that maps to the > > conceptual description ) > > > > > > > > I am starting to prefer the basic conceptual / abstract description over one > > that is inherently mappable to every possible. > > > LL > > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Frats&data=02%7C01%7Cdthaler%40microsoft.com%7Cb7301d9b535a436003db08d79471dc41%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637141089066538773&sdata=fynNh%2FKEJgaGj1fQNwQYBjdgxQE5XUFl%2BeyA0nOkpJs%3D&reserved=0 > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > 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BL0PR2101MB1092.namprd21.prod.outlook.com (52.132.24.26) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2644.6; Thu, 9 Jan 2020 00:18:26 +0000 Received: from BL0PR2101MB1027.namprd21.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c50e:86ef:6bf3:d535]) by BL0PR2101MB1027.namprd21.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::c50e:86ef:6bf3:d535%9]) with mapi id 15.20.2644.002; Thu, 9 Jan 2020 00:18:26 +0000 From: Dave Thaler To: Henk Birkholz , Michael Richardson , Laurence Lundblade CC: "Smith, Ned" , =?utf-8?B?U2Now7Zud8OkbGRlciwgSsO8cmdlbg==?= , "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Rats] looking for better terms -- request for bike shed discussion Thread-Index: AQHVxXRNHlBPWqb3kESfZ0AtIRfNEqffZpYAgAAExoCAAFDHAIAATH2AgAEh3gCAAElhEIAAA4wAgAACDUA= Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2020 00:18:26 +0000 Message-ID: References: <26979.1578413051@localhost> <6291CF16-BBDC-4A12-A0C0-FDFBAB494A31@island-resort.com> <20200107165432.zmpm6yilgr6fogrh@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> 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microsoft.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 6f632521-f050-4753-0ef2-08d794997232 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 09 Jan 2020 00:18:26.0946 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: pixko+GZJmJc5ZpVYuMGqDNK43r5v3OuZVQ/tKyokns3BqA+Q1XEfya9N9/1eRbF/TYxkaItYts+Qy5g/aQD+FnmJpPv5oZfwf0iF1dTz9Y= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BL0PR2101MB1092 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] looking for better terms -- request for bike shed discussion X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2020 00:18:30 -0000 SWYgeW91J3JlIGFza2luZyBhYm91dCBteSBleGFtcGxlLCB0aGVyZSdzIG9ubHkgb25lIGRldmlj 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JTJGcmF0cyZhbXA7ZGF0YT0wMiU3QzAxJTdDZHRoYWxlciU0MG1pY3INCj4gb3NvZnQuY29tJTdD MWFmY2E3NGYwMjlhNGRhZGYxYzQwOGQ3OTQ5ODU5MzElN0M3MmY5ODhiZjg2ZjE0MWFmOTFhYjJk Nw0KPiBjZDAxMWRiNDclN0MxJTdDMCU3QzYzNzE0MTI1NDQyMDQyMTI2MyZhbXA7c2RhdGE9V2V4 WWl1UEdQaCUyRlNvejJ0YWdYDQo+IHdmM1BlM0NTY1FlT2dNJTJCZDV6UFFkZXlZJTNEJmFtcDty ZXNlcnZlZD0wDQo+IA0K From nobody Wed Jan 8 16:26:37 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BE971201DE for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2020 16:26:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.92 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.92 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oRKsodZVBkXs for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2020 16:26:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.72.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E68B2120108 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2020 16:26:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (mail.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.84.171]) by mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-10) with ESMTPS id 0090QSlo009248 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 9 Jan 2020 01:26:29 +0100 Received: from [192.168.43.221] (80.187.105.98) by mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (141.12.84.171) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.468.0; Thu, 9 Jan 2020 01:26:23 +0100 To: Dave Thaler , Michael Richardson , Laurence Lundblade CC: =?UTF-8?B?U2Now7Zud8OkbGRlciwgSsO8cmdlbg==?= , "Smith, Ned" , "rats@ietf.org" References: <26979.1578413051@localhost> <6291CF16-BBDC-4A12-A0C0-FDFBAB494A31@island-resort.com> <20200107165432.zmpm6yilgr6fogrh@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <0FB69139-54DE-4F1B-906F-12B83D1EDEED@island-resort.com> <31998.1578512094@localhost> <907cad7b-b09f-ded2-ff74-b68d165d3127@sit.fraunhofer.de> From: Henk Birkholz Message-ID: Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2020 01:26:21 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.2.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [80.187.105.98] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] looking for better terms -- request for bike shed discussion X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2020 00:26:34 -0000 Then the only thing I think is confusing is the statement: > Are you ok with saying that every claimset in a chain is from a separate "attester"? I believe this is different from our current definition of Attester (which is the thing that sends the whole chain to a verifier), so want to confirm. This would imply multiple entities (in contrast to "there's only one device") and I was not sure how to interpret that correctly. I am in agreement that it should be one device (which boils down to one entity in the rats arch at the moment). My assumption is that this is just a wording issue and we actually mean the same thing :) I only wanted to be sure, because multiple attester roles creating a single chain would require a significant overhead of 'attestation provisioning procedures' which will be in scope for the first rechartering, but not right now. On 09.01.20 01:18, Dave Thaler wrote: > If you're asking about my example, there's only one device, this is standard DICE cert chain functionality on a single ARM processor. > > Dave > > -----Original Message----- > From: Henk Birkholz > Sent: Wednesday, January 8, 2020 4:10 PM > To: Dave Thaler ; Michael Richardson ; Laurence Lundblade > Cc: Smith, Ned ; Schönwälder, Jürgen ; rats@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Rats] looking for better terms -- request for bike shed discussion > > Hm... > > on one hand, this seems to imply that the "attester role" in this chain does not reside on the same "entity" (in other words, multiple entities are composing the chain with their individual attester roles). If that is what you were trying to state, I am uncertain what problem this would address. > > On the other hand, maybe there is a use case for this? Alas, I am under the impression that this route could imply a tremendous increase of architectural complexity. > > On 09.01.20 01:02, Dave Thaler wrote: >> I don't think I have any problems with Laurence's terminology but just to test it... >> >> We have devices running Trusted Apps on OP-TEE over trusted firmware on an ARM TrustZone processor. >> The full evidence is a DICE cert chain that has a set of claims for each cert in the chain, where each layer is an attesting environment for the subsequent layer (attested environment): >> Hardware -> Trusted Firmware -> OP-TEE -> TA Thus there are four >> claim sets in a chain. >> >> Using Laurence's terminology, I believe the suggestion is that attesting environment is an "attester" and an attested environment is a "target". Thus the example above has 3 attesters (Hardware, TFW, and OP-TEE), and 4 targets (HW where target == attester, TFW, OP-TEE, and TA). >> >> Are you ok with saying that every claimset in a chain is from a separate "attester"? I believe this is different from our current definition of Attester (which is the thing that sends the whole chain to a verifier), so want to confirm. >> >> Dave >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RATS On Behalf Of Michael Richardson >> Sent: Wednesday, January 8, 2020 11:35 AM >> To: Laurence Lundblade >> Cc: =?utf-8?B?IlNjaMO2bnfDpGxkZXIsIErDvHJnZW4i?= >> ; Smith, Ned >> ; rats@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [Rats] looking for better terms -- request for bike shed >> discussion >> >> >> Thank you for this very nice text. I rather like it. >> >> Laurence Lundblade wrote: >> > Here’s some rough text: >> >> > Conceptually, the “attester” produces a set of “claims” about a “target”. >> > The claims are known as “attestation evidence” and are sent to the >> > “verifier”. The verifier additionally takes in “endorsements”, processes >> > the attestation evidence and produces the “attestation result” for the >> > final consumer, the “relying party”. >> >> >> > This description left conceptual for easy understanding and discussion. >> > Actual implementations are usually more complex in at least one or more >> > of these ways: >> >> >> >> > * The attester is also the target >> >> >> > * One attester produces claims about several targets >> (submodules) >> >> >> > * The verifier and the relying party are the same >> > * Claims may be simple or complex, many or few >> > * Some claims are measurements and some are not >> > * Some claims in in the attestation evidence may be simply passed >> > through the verifier, others may be heavily processed. >> > * Daisy chaining -- the evidence from one attester goes through a >> > verifier producing results which are taken as claims that are input >> > to another attester that outputs a different set of evidence that >> > goes on through a different verifier. >> > * Daisy chaining may happen on the device producing the attestations >> > or in the infrastructure evaluating the device or both. >> >> >> > (Next I’d write a plethoras of simple examples for attester, target, >> > claims… assuming only the simplest implementation that maps to the >> > conceptual description ) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > I am starting to prefer the basic conceptual / abstract description over one >> > that is inherently mappable to every possible. >> >> > LL >> >> _______________________________________________ >> RATS mailing list >> RATS@ietf.org >> https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww. >> ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Frats&data=02%7C01%7Cdthaler%40micr >> osoft.com%7C1afca74f029a4dadf1c408d794985931%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7 >> cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637141254420421263&sdata=WexYiuPGPh%2FSoz2tagX >> wf3Pe3CScQeOgM%2Bd5zPQdeyY%3D&reserved=0 >> _______________________________________________ >> RATS mailing list >> RATS@ietf.org >> https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww. >> ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Frats&data=02%7C01%7Cdthaler%40micr >> osoft.com%7C1afca74f029a4dadf1c408d794985931%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7 >> cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637141254420421263&sdata=WexYiuPGPh%2FSoz2tagX >> wf3Pe3CScQeOgM%2Bd5zPQdeyY%3D&reserved=0 >> > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > From nobody Wed Jan 8 16:49:59 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4649E120108 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2020 16:49:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.92 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.92 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id opCezZT9eIDo for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2020 16:49:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.72.89]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D68271200A3 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2020 16:49:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (mail.sit.fraunhofer.de [141.12.84.171]) by mailext.sit.fraunhofer.de (8.15.2/8.15.2/Debian-10) with ESMTPS id 0090nkjq009763 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 9 Jan 2020 01:49:47 +0100 Received: from [192.168.43.221] (80.187.106.190) by mail.sit.fraunhofer.de (141.12.84.171) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.468.0; Thu, 9 Jan 2020 01:49:41 +0100 To: Dave Thaler , Michael Richardson , Laurence Lundblade CC: =?UTF-8?B?U2Now7Zud8OkbGRlciwgSsO8cmdlbg==?= , "Smith, Ned" , "rats@ietf.org" References: <26979.1578413051@localhost> <6291CF16-BBDC-4A12-A0C0-FDFBAB494A31@island-resort.com> <20200107165432.zmpm6yilgr6fogrh@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <0FB69139-54DE-4F1B-906F-12B83D1EDEED@island-resort.com> <31998.1578512094@localhost> <907cad7b-b09f-ded2-ff74-b68d165d3127@sit.fraunhofer.de> From: Henk Birkholz Message-ID: Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2020 01:49:40 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.2.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Originating-IP: [80.187.106.190] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] looking for better terms -- request for bike shed discussion X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2020 00:49:57 -0000 Oh! I just realized... you are referring to the initial topic of layered attestation where there is a sequence of attested environments becoming the attesting environment and so forth. If so, I misunderstood your initial statement, I think. The "separate attesters" you were referring to are the staged environments that become attesting environments during boot in a single entity, yes? If so, we are in wild agreement and it just took me while to get it... Viele Grüße, Henk On 09.01.20 01:18, Dave Thaler wrote: > If you're asking about my example, there's only one device, this is standard DICE cert chain functionality on a single ARM processor. > > Dave > > -----Original Message----- > From: Henk Birkholz > Sent: Wednesday, January 8, 2020 4:10 PM > To: Dave Thaler ; Michael Richardson ; Laurence Lundblade > Cc: Smith, Ned ; Schönwälder, Jürgen ; rats@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Rats] looking for better terms -- request for bike shed discussion > > Hm... > > on one hand, this seems to imply that the "attester role" in this chain does not reside on the same "entity" (in other words, multiple entities are composing the chain with their individual attester roles). If that is what you were trying to state, I am uncertain what problem this would address. > > On the other hand, maybe there is a use case for this? Alas, I am under the impression that this route could imply a tremendous increase of architectural complexity. > > On 09.01.20 01:02, Dave Thaler wrote: >> I don't think I have any problems with Laurence's terminology but just to test it... >> >> We have devices running Trusted Apps on OP-TEE over trusted firmware on an ARM TrustZone processor. >> The full evidence is a DICE cert chain that has a set of claims for each cert in the chain, where each layer is an attesting environment for the subsequent layer (attested environment): >> Hardware -> Trusted Firmware -> OP-TEE -> TA Thus there are four >> claim sets in a chain. >> >> Using Laurence's terminology, I believe the suggestion is that attesting environment is an "attester" and an attested environment is a "target". Thus the example above has 3 attesters (Hardware, TFW, and OP-TEE), and 4 targets (HW where target == attester, TFW, OP-TEE, and TA). >> >> Are you ok with saying that every claimset in a chain is from a separate "attester"? I believe this is different from our current definition of Attester (which is the thing that sends the whole chain to a verifier), so want to confirm. >> >> Dave >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RATS On Behalf Of Michael Richardson >> Sent: Wednesday, January 8, 2020 11:35 AM >> To: Laurence Lundblade >> Cc: =?utf-8?B?IlNjaMO2bnfDpGxkZXIsIErDvHJnZW4i?= >> ; Smith, Ned >> ; rats@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [Rats] looking for better terms -- request for bike shed >> discussion >> >> >> Thank you for this very nice text. I rather like it. >> >> Laurence Lundblade wrote: >> > Here’s some rough text: >> >> > Conceptually, the “attester” produces a set of “claims” about a “target”. >> > The claims are known as “attestation evidence” and are sent to the >> > “verifier”. The verifier additionally takes in “endorsements”, processes >> > the attestation evidence and produces the “attestation result” for the >> > final consumer, the “relying party”. >> >> >> > This description left conceptual for easy understanding and discussion. >> > Actual implementations are usually more complex in at least one or more >> > of these ways: >> >> >> >> > * The attester is also the target >> >> >> > * One attester produces claims about several targets >> (submodules) >> >> >> > * The verifier and the relying party are the same >> > * Claims may be simple or complex, many or few >> > * Some claims are measurements and some are not >> > * Some claims in in the attestation evidence may be simply passed >> > through the verifier, others may be heavily processed. >> > * Daisy chaining -- the evidence from one attester goes through a >> > verifier producing results which are taken as claims that are input >> > to another attester that outputs a different set of evidence that >> > goes on through a different verifier. >> > * Daisy chaining may happen on the device producing the attestations >> > or in the infrastructure evaluating the device or both. >> >> >> > (Next I’d write a plethoras of simple examples for attester, target, >> > claims… assuming only the simplest implementation that maps to the >> > conceptual description ) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > I am starting to prefer the basic conceptual / abstract description over one >> > that is inherently mappable to every possible. >> >> > LL >> >> _______________________________________________ >> RATS mailing list >> RATS@ietf.org >> https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww. >> ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Frats&data=02%7C01%7Cdthaler%40micr >> osoft.com%7C1afca74f029a4dadf1c408d794985931%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7 >> cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637141254420421263&sdata=WexYiuPGPh%2FSoz2tagX >> wf3Pe3CScQeOgM%2Bd5zPQdeyY%3D&reserved=0 >> _______________________________________________ >> RATS mailing list >> RATS@ietf.org >> https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww. >> ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Frats&data=02%7C01%7Cdthaler%40micr >> osoft.com%7C1afca74f029a4dadf1c408d794985931%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7 >> cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637141254420421263&sdata=WexYiuPGPh%2FSoz2tagX >> wf3Pe3CScQeOgM%2Bd5zPQdeyY%3D&reserved=0 >> > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > From nobody Wed Jan 8 17:34:34 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B336120142 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2020 17:34:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] 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ORSMSX106.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.225.133) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.439.0; Wed, 8 Jan 2020 17:34:26 -0800 Received: from orsmsx109.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.11.176]) by ORSMSX163.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.9.4]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Wed, 8 Jan 2020 17:34:26 -0800 From: "Smith, Ned" To: Dave Thaler , Michael Richardson , Laurence Lundblade CC: =?utf-8?B?IlNjaMO2bnfDpGxkZXIsIErDvHJnZW4i?= , "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Rats] looking for better terms -- request for bike shed discussion Thread-Index: AQHVxXQlCbKWYp19fkKQpfqMAhzvLqff7LMAgAAExoD//8qrAIAA0piAgAEh3wCAAErRgP//k4YA Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2020 01:34:26 +0000 Message-ID: References: <26979.1578413051@localhost> <6291CF16-BBDC-4A12-A0C0-FDFBAB494A31@island-resort.com> <20200107165432.zmpm6yilgr6fogrh@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <0FB69139-54DE-4F1B-906F-12B83D1EDEED@island-resort.com> <31998.1578512094@localhost> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.20.0.191208 msip_labels: MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Enabled=True; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_SiteId=72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Owner=dthaler@ntdev.microsoft.com; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_SetDate=2020-01-09T00:02:40.8002482Z; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Name=General; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Application=Microsoft Azure Information Protection; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_ActionId=59f11f50-6651-43a1-b587-9a7347e6d731; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Extended_MSFT_Method=Automatic x-originating-ip: [10.24.10.114] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <6A58A73119CB4644B8614757B519149A@intel.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] looking for better terms -- request for bike shed discussion X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2020 01:34:32 -0000 RXF1YXRpbmcgdGhlICJhdHRlc3RlciIgd2l0aCBhbiAiYXR0ZXN0aW5nIGVudmlyb25tZW50IiBt YXkgYmUgZmFsbGFjaW91cy4gRm9yIGV4YW1wbGUsIHRoZSBUQSBtaWdodCBiZSB0aGUgdGhpbmcg dGhhdCBzaWducyB0aGUgY29udmV5YW5jZSBwcm90b2NvbCBmcmFtZXMgYW5kIGRlbGl2ZXJzIHRo ZSBjZXJ0IGNoYWluIHRvIHRoZSBWZXJpZmllci4gSG93ZXZlciwgaXQgKHRoZSBUQSkgaXNuJ3Qg YW4gImF0dGVzdGluZyBlbnZpcm9ubWVudCIgaXQgb25seSBldmVyIGlzIGEgInRhcmdldCBlbnZp cm9ubWVudCIuIA0KDQpUaGUgVmVyaWZpZXIgTVVTVCg/KSBkZXRlY3QgdGhlIERJQ0UgbGF5ZXJp bmcgY29udmVudGlvbiBhbmQgd2FsayB0aGUgZ3JhcGggYmFjayB0byB0aGUgb3JpZ2luYWwgKHJv b3QpICJhdHRlc3RpbmcgZW52aXJvbm1lbnQiLiBFdmVuIHdpdGggRElDRSBsYXllcmluZywgdGhl cmUgaXMgc3RpbGwgb25seSBhIHNpbmdsZSAiZGV2aWNlIiAoZW5kcG9pbnQpIHRoYXQgdGhlIFJB 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OWI1MzVhNDM2MDAzZGIwOGQ3OTQ3MWRjNDElN0M3MmY5ODhiZjg2ZjE0MWFmOTFhYjJkN2NkMDEx ZGI0NyU3QzElN0MwJTdDNjM3MTQxMDg5MDY2NTM4NzczJmFtcDtzZGF0YT1meW5OaCUyRktFSmdh R2oxZlFOd1FZQmpkZ3hRRTVYVUZsJTJCZXlBMG5Pa3BKcyUzRCZhbXA7cmVzZXJ2ZWQ9MA0KICAg IA0KDQo= From nobody Wed Jan 8 17:36:16 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41C7E120108 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2020 17:36:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id k5S7WIKwFfsd for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2020 17:36:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mga17.intel.com (mga17.intel.com [192.55.52.151]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0387F120020 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 2020 17:36:12 -0800 (PST) X-Amp-Result: SKIPPED(no attachment in message) X-Amp-File-Uploaded: False Received: from fmsmga003.fm.intel.com ([10.253.24.29]) by fmsmga107.fm.intel.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 08 Jan 2020 17:36:12 -0800 X-ExtLoop1: 1 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.69,412,1571727600"; d="scan'208";a="271985599" Received: from orsmsx103.amr.corp.intel.com ([10.22.225.130]) by FMSMGA003.fm.intel.com with ESMTP; 08 Jan 2020 17:36:12 -0800 Received: from orsmsx125.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.240.125) by ORSMSX103.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.225.130) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.439.0; Wed, 8 Jan 2020 17:36:12 -0800 Received: from orsmsx109.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.11.176]) by ORSMSX125.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.3.12]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Wed, 8 Jan 2020 17:36:12 -0800 From: "Smith, Ned" To: Henk Birkholz , Dave Thaler , Michael Richardson , Laurence Lundblade CC: =?utf-8?B?U2Now7Zud8OkbGRlciwgSsO8cmdlbg==?= , "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Rats] looking for better terms -- request for bike shed discussion Thread-Index: AQHVxXQlCbKWYp19fkKQpfqMAhzvLqff7LMAgAAExoD//8qrAIAA0piAgAEh3wCAAErRgIAAAhwAgAACSwCAAAi6AP//huKA Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2020 01:36:11 +0000 Message-ID: <2B1FA2D2-7B24-4000-B56F-2FCB59F5A447@intel.com> References: <26979.1578413051@localhost> <6291CF16-BBDC-4A12-A0C0-FDFBAB494A31@island-resort.com> <20200107165432.zmpm6yilgr6fogrh@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <0FB69139-54DE-4F1B-906F-12B83D1EDEED@island-resort.com> <31998.1578512094@localhost> <907cad7b-b09f-ded2-ff74-b68d165d3127@sit.fraunhofer.de> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.20.0.191208 x-originating-ip: [10.24.10.114] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" 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ICAgUkFUU0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KICAgIGh0dHBzOi8vbmFtMDYuc2FmZWxpbmtzLnByb3RlY3Rpb24u b3V0bG9vay5jb20vP3VybD1odHRwcyUzQSUyRiUyRnd3dy5pZXRmLm9yZyUyRm1haWxtYW4lMkZs aXN0aW5mbyUyRnJhdHMmYW1wO2RhdGE9MDIlN0MwMSU3Q2R0aGFsZXIlNDBtaWNyb3NvZnQuY29t JTdDM2NhNWJiNWZjNWQ4NGE2ZjZmNjIwOGQ3OTRhNDEyMGElN0M3MmY5ODhiZjg2ZjE0MWFmOTFh YjJkN2NkMDExZGI0NyU3QzElN0MwJTdDNjM3MTQxMzA0NzE1MTQ4OTQyJmFtcDtzZGF0YT0yTFc2 eElOMkFBbTdia1lRSWxwcUdRUlR3VDc2QnAwR1lxeFFiSWJOM1VNJTNEJmFtcDtyZXNlcnZlZD0w DQogICAgDQoNCg== From nobody Thu Jan 9 01:52:32 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietf.org Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5A3C1200C3; Thu, 9 Jan 2020 01:52:30 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: Cc: rats@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.115.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Reply-To: rats@ietf.org Message-ID: <157856355082.11738.293634649094532281@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2020 01:52:30 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] I-D Action: draft-ietf-rats-eat-02.txt X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2020 09:52:31 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the Remote ATtestation ProcedureS WG of the IETF. Title : The Entity Attestation Token (EAT) Authors : Giridhar Mandyam Laurence Lundblade Miguel Ballesteros Jeremy O'Donoghue Filename : draft-ietf-rats-eat-02.txt Pages : 29 Date : 2020-01-09 Abstract: An Entity Attestation Token (EAT) provides a signed (attested) set of claims that describe state and characteristics of an entity, typically a device like a phone or an IoT device. These claims are used by a relying party to determine how much it wishes to trust the entity. An EAT is either a CWT or JWT with some attestation-oriented claims. To a large degree, all this document does is extend CWT and JWT. Contributing TBD The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rats-eat/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rats-eat-02 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-rats-eat-02 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-rats-eat-02 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Thu Jan 9 06:08:24 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB257120048 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2020 06:08:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6Py9PuHkM8XG for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2020 06:08:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [185.176.76.210]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 929E4120026 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2020 06:08:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from LHREML714-CAH.china.huawei.com (unknown [172.18.7.107]) by Forcepoint Email with ESMTP id DEB2CABC56741EA18C22; Thu, 9 Jan 2020 14:08:17 +0000 (GMT) Received: from nkgeml705-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.154) by LHREML714-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.108.37) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.408.0; Thu, 9 Jan 2020 14:08:17 +0000 Received: from nkgeml705-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.154) by nkgeml705-chm.china.huawei.com (10.98.57.154) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.1713.5; Thu, 9 Jan 2020 22:08:14 +0800 Received: from nkgeml705-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.98.57.154]) by nkgeml705-chm.china.huawei.com ([10.98.57.154]) with mapi id 15.01.1713.004; Thu, 9 Jan 2020 22:08:14 +0800 From: "Panwei (William)" To: "Smith, Ned" , Dave Thaler , Michael Richardson , Laurence Lundblade CC: "rats@ietf.org" , =?utf-8?B?IlNjaMO2bnfDpGxkZXIsIErDvHJnZW4i?= Thread-Topic: [Rats] looking for better terms -- request for bike shed discussion Thread-Index: AQHVxXQmei33q/W/8Uu/SpKMG0vhHqfe4HoAgAAExoCAAFDHAIAATH2AgAEh3gCAAErSgIAAGaIAgACM8sA= Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2020 14:08:14 +0000 Message-ID: References: <26979.1578413051@localhost> <6291CF16-BBDC-4A12-A0C0-FDFBAB494A31@island-resort.com> <20200107165432.zmpm6yilgr6fogrh@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <0FB69139-54DE-4F1B-906F-12B83D1EDEED@island-resort.com> <31998.1578512094@localhost> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: zh-CN, en-US Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.138.33.152] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] looking for better terms -- request for bike shed discussion X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: 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Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2020 11:50:44 -0800 In-Reply-To: Cc: "Smith, Ned" , Dave Thaler , Michael Richardson , "rats@ietf.org" , =?utf-8?B?IlNjaMO2bnfDpGxkZXIsIErDvHJnZW4i?= To: "Panwei (William)" References: <26979.1578413051@localhost> <6291CF16-BBDC-4A12-A0C0-FDFBAB494A31@island-resort.com> <20200107165432.zmpm6yilgr6fogrh@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <0FB69139-54DE-4F1B-906F-12B83D1EDEED@island-resort.com> <31998.1578512094@localhost> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfHhRR4SJuWNCc9Y4eYuSktKVcrZViI/dfbPTo9mXY+gykfcCQlZbag4J/nlsQmA3RIPVArYuUDfXNpLQ1DKutbkrJxAu86G+7p5YetcfnV6h2SrM/eI0 8XFg2sKpxwKLZmldzfjRvLbWaLlcY+YcAIPD75qRYOmbuGDdBjQMsf/z2xse4XY22pUmerbEJ58+JOz0gxQRWVbVrG5rF0iA0fxwsm/j8vDkuOXY8B0HysMl U6HgmAM+1hoGmv8e95bbkB0GqgkUvzJKIvSagfGeu/fDG3AASZMpqMLt/SeGbOW3wu1A+vBC6fzkyZvMbFEG1OXpUr+NKaMSAzYqUpNEAAbf1cVHtnwCIT+Q 3XFBxdLO Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] looking for better terms -- request for bike shed discussion X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2020 19:50:49 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_45B8BEF8-38D2-4D7C-9D81-D96D4878AFAF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 i think term =E2=80=9Ctarget=E2=80=9D, perhaps short for =E2=80=9Ctarget = (attested) environment=E2=80=9D, holds up no matter how we define = attester and is easier to use and better than =E2=80=9Cattested = environment=E2=80=9D. For =E2=80=9Cattester=E2=80=9D I see two choices. 1) Refers to the aggregate What Panwei and Net are leaning towards in this thread. There would be = by definition, one attester per device. An attester could be made up of a number of =E2=80=9Csub-attesters=E2=80=9D= (or attesting environments) plus maybe some on-device verifiers = depending on daisy-chaining design. One attester could be made by many = OEMs. 2) Refers to smallest functional attestation block This is the way I used it in my text. There can be many attesters in a = device. I propose we use the term =E2=80=9Caggregate attester=E2=80=9D or = =E2=80=9Cwhole-device attester=E2=80=9D to refer to the combination of = the (atomic) attesters. I prefer 2). I think it is cleaner and is easier to understand, = particularly for people first learning about attestation. I think it = makes my single paragraph description clean. I think we will want to = refer to the atomic attester much more often than the aggregate = attester. It keeps the simple case simple; you only incur complexity = when you have a complex use case. I think the definition of a device is going to cause some trouble with = 1). Is the device a car, or is it the entertainment box, the motor = control=E2=80=A6? Is the device the router card or the router? I like the association of one signing key per attester, rather than an = attester having a lot of signing keys from different manufacturers. In certification, I think the atomic attester would be the thing you=E2=80= =99d certify, particularly if you were doing common criterion. It would = be much harder, maybe impossible, to certify the aggregate. Here=E2=80=99s a comment Ned made that I=E2=80=99m confused about: >> For example, the TA might be the thing that signs the conveyance = protocol >> frames and delivers the cert chain to the Verifier. However, it (the = TA) isn't an >> "attesting environment" it only ever is a "target environment=E2=80=9D.= What is =E2=80=9Csigning conveyance protocol frames=E2=80=9D? It kind of = sounds like TLS or IPsec. If that=E2=80=99s it, then I=E2=80=99d call = that conveyance protocol and say that is incidental to attestation = architecture. I think of all signing in RATS as attesting, so if this is signing a = token, then it would make the TA an attester. LL > On Jan 9, 2020, at 6:08 AM, Panwei (William) = wrote: >=20 > I agree with Ned, "attester" should be the device/endpoint. >=20 > I'd like to try to use this idea to explain the confusing terms = appeared in my composite device PR. I'll use the router to be the = example.=20 >=20 > A router consists of several slots: one main control slot and some = line-processing or feature-processing slots. Each slot has a TPM and a = CPU and can do the measured boot within this slot. Therefore the remote = attestation of the router should consider verifying all the slots. > The router is the "attester". For each slot in the router, it has an = "attesting environment" (Root of Trust for Measurement) and several = "target environment" (TPM, bootloader, OS, etc.), and this "attesting = env" produces a set of "claims" about these "target env".=20 >=20 > One traditional method of doing remote attestation for this router may = be the main control slot collects each set of "claims" which are = separately produced by each slot, and puts all the "claims" together to = be the "evidence" of the whole "attester" (maybe here some other = operations like signature are also needed), then conveys the "evidence" = to the "verifier" (only the main control slot can communicate with the = verifier). >=20 > My PR (https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/architecture/pull/13) wants to = consider another method. The main difference is: after collecting all = the "claims", the main control slot (the "attesting env" in it) can = verify the "claims" of other slots and produces a different set of = "claims" about the verification results, then it combines the original = "claims" of its own and "claims" of the verification results of other = slots to produce the "evidence". >=20 > So the "leader and subordinate units" are the slots of the router. The = "attestation result of subordinate units" is just some sets of "claims" = of the "Evidence of the Attester". >=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RATS [mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Smith, Ned >> Sent: Thursday, January 9, 2020 9:34 AM >> To: Dave Thaler ; Michael Richardson >> ; Laurence Lundblade >> Cc: rats@ietf.org; "Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder, J=C3=BCrgen" >> >> Subject: Re: [Rats] looking for better terms -- request for bike shed >> discussion >>=20 >> Equating the "attester" with an "attesting environment" may be = fallacious. >> For example, the TA might be the thing that signs the conveyance = protocol >> frames and delivers the cert chain to the Verifier. However, it (the = TA) isn't an >> "attesting environment" it only ever is a "target environment". >>=20 >> The Verifier MUST(?) detect the DICE layering convention and walk the >> graph back to the original (root) "attesting environment". Even with = DICE >> layering, there is still only a single "device" (endpoint) that the = RATS Role >> will call "Attester" and it consists of multiple "attesting = environments" and >> multiple "target environments" where some of these are both an = "attesting" >> and a "target" environment during its lifetime. >>=20 >> It may be incorrect to say that the TA is the RATS "Attester" because = the >> Attester is supposed to be a pledge that can prove it is a = trustworthy >> endpoint to the Verifer. The endpoint isn't just the TA, it is the = chain of >> things that anchors it to the first "attesting environment". >>=20 >> The root/anchor "attesting" environment relies on its mfg to = establish trust >> using a mfg issued certificate that vouches for the process that >> manufactured it and likely issues an identity credential (IDevID). = The IDevID >> allows the Verifier to disambiguate which of possibly multiple = instances of >> Attesters it is talking to currently. >>=20 >> It seems reasonable that an EAT submod structure can be used to = represent >> DICE layering (so could an X.509 certificate chain). However, a = submod >> could also describe other relationships / decompositions of a >> multi-component endpoint. For example, if the OP-TEE consisted of >> multiple chips then there could be multiple vendors, part numbers = etc.. and >> therefore multiple submods where all of them (likely) are "target >> environments". >>=20 >> DICE layering comprehends hierarchies too. If one of the OPTEE sub >> components had DICE capabilities it could become an "attesting >> environment" to one of the OPTEE chips (branches). But this more = complex >> thing is still dependent on its path to the anchor/root "attesting >> environment" so it can't (in isolation) claim to be the "attester". >>=20 >> If the TEE was an SGX instead of an OPTEE, then the anchor "attesting >> environment" is SGX uCode rather than HW --> Trusted FW. The SGX >> "attesting" and "target" environments are orthogonal to the non-SGX >> "attesting" and "target" environments, but nevertheless part of an IA >> "device". It is possible therefore to have multiple "Attesters" in = the same >> SGX-capable "device". >>=20 >> -Ned >>=20 >> =EF=BB=BFOn 1/8/20, 4:02 PM, "Dave Thaler" = wrote: >>=20 >> I don't think I have any problems with Laurence's terminology but = just >> to test it... >>=20 >> We have devices running Trusted Apps on OP-TEE over trusted >> firmware on an ARM TrustZone processor. >> The full evidence is a DICE cert chain that has a set of claims = for each >> cert in the chain, where each layer is an attesting environment for = the >> subsequent layer (attested environment): >> Hardware -> Trusted Firmware -> OP-TEE -> TA >> Thus there are four claim sets in a chain. >>=20 >> Using Laurence's terminology, I believe the suggestion is that = attesting >> environment is an "attester" and an attested environment is a = "target". >> Thus the example above has 3 attesters (Hardware, TFW, and OP-TEE), = and 4 >> targets (HW where target =3D=3D attester, TFW, OP-TEE, and TA). >>=20 >> Are you ok with saying that every claimset in a chain is from a = separate >> "attester"? I believe this is different from our current definition = of >> Attester (which is the thing that sends the whole chain to a = verifier), so want >> to confirm. >>=20 >> Dave >>=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RATS On Behalf Of Michael Richardson >> Sent: Wednesday, January 8, 2020 11:35 AM >> To: Laurence Lundblade >> Cc: =3D?utf-8?B?IlNjaMO2bnfDpGxkZXIsIErDvHJnZW4i?=3D >> ; Smith, Ned >> ; rats@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [Rats] looking for better terms -- request for bike = shed >> discussion >>=20 >>=20 >> Thank you for this very nice text. I rather like it. >>=20 >> Laurence Lundblade wrote: >>> Here=E2=80=99s some rough text: >>=20 >>> Conceptually, the =E2=80=9Cattester=E2=80=9D produces a set of = =E2=80=9Cclaims=E2=80=9D about a >> =E2=80=9Ctarget=E2=80=9D. >>> The claims are known as =E2=80=9Cattestation evidence=E2=80=9D and = are sent to >> the >>> =E2=80=9Cverifier=E2=80=9D. The verifier additionally takes in = =E2=80=9Cendorsements=E2=80=9D, >> processes >>> the attestation evidence and produces the =E2=80=9Cattestation = result=E2=80=9D for >> the >>> final consumer, the =E2=80=9Crelying party=E2=80=9D. >>=20 >>=20 >>> This description left conceptual for easy understanding and >> discussion. >>> Actual implementations are usually more complex in at least one >> or more >>> of these ways: >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>> * The attester is also the target >>=20 >>=20 >>> * One attester produces claims about several targets >> (submodules) >>=20 >>=20 >>> * The verifier and the relying party are the same >>> * Claims may be simple or complex, many or few >>> * Some claims are measurements and some are not >>> * Some claims in in the attestation evidence may be simply >> passed >>> through the verifier, others may be heavily processed. >>> * Daisy chaining -- the evidence from one attester goes through >> a >>> verifier producing results which are taken as claims that are input >>> to another attester that outputs a different set of evidence that >>> goes on through a different verifier. >>> * Daisy chaining may happen on the device producing the >> attestations >>> or in the infrastructure evaluating the device or both. >>=20 >>=20 >>> (Next I=E2=80=99d write a plethoras of simple examples for attester, = target, >>> claims=E2=80=A6 assuming only the simplest implementation that maps >> to the >>> conceptual description ) >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>> I am starting to prefer the basic conceptual / abstract description >> over one >>> that is inherently mappable to every possible. >>=20 >>> LL >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> RATS mailing list >> RATS@ietf.org >>=20 >> https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fww >> w.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Frats&data=3D02%7C01%7Cdthaler >> %40microsoft.com%7Cb7301d9b535a436003db08d79471dc41%7C72f988b >> f86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637141089066538773&s >> data=3DfynNh%2FKEJgaGj1fQNwQYBjdgxQE5XUFl%2BeyA0nOkpJs%3D&am >> p;reserved=3D0 >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> RATS mailing list >> RATS@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats --Apple-Mail=_45B8BEF8-38D2-4D7C-9D81-D96D4878AFAF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
i think term =E2=80=9Ctarget=E2=80=9D, perhaps short for = =E2=80=9Ctarget (attested) environment=E2=80=9D, holds up no matter how = we define attester and is easier to use and better than =E2=80=9Cattested = environment=E2=80=9D.

For =E2=80=9Cattester=E2=80=9D I see two choices.

1) Refers to the = aggregate

What = Panwei and Net are leaning towards in this thread. There would be by = definition, one attester per device.

An attester could be made up of a = number of =E2=80=9Csub-attesters=E2=80=9D (or attesting environments) = plus maybe some on-device verifiers depending on daisy-chaining design. = One attester could be made by many OEMs.


2) = Refers to smallest functional attestation block

This is the way I used it in my text. = There can be many attesters in a device.

I propose we use the term =E2=80=9Caggreg= ate attester=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cwhole-device attester=E2=80=9D to = refer to the combination of the (atomic) = attesters.


I prefer 2). I think it = is cleaner and is easier to understand, particularly for people first = learning about attestation. I think it makes my single paragraph = description clean. I think we will want to refer to the atomic attester = much more often than the aggregate attester. It keeps the simple case = simple; you only incur complexity when you have a complex use = case.

I think = the definition of a device is going to cause some trouble with 1). Is = the device a car, or is it the entertainment box, the motor control=E2=80=A6= ? Is the device the router card or the router?

I like the association of one signing = key per attester, rather than an attester having a lot of signing keys = from different manufacturers.

In certification, I think the atomic = attester would be the thing you=E2=80=99d certify, particularly if you = were doing common criterion. It would be much harder, maybe impossible, = to certify the aggregate.


Here=E2=80=99s a comment = Ned made that I=E2=80=99m confused about:
For = example, the TA might be the thing that signs the conveyance protocol
frames and delivers the cert chain to the Verifier. However, = it (the TA) isn't an
"attesting environment" it only ever = is a "target environment=E2=80=9D.

What is =E2=80=9Csigning conveyance = protocol frames=E2=80=9D? It kind of sounds like TLS or IPsec. If = that=E2=80=99s it, then I=E2=80=99d call that conveyance protocol and = say that is incidental to attestation architecture.

I think of all signing = in RATS as attesting, so if this is signing a token, then it would make = the TA an attester.

LL





On Jan 9, 2020, at 6:08 AM, Panwei (William) <william.panwei@huawei.com> wrote:

I = agree with Ned, "attester" should be the device/endpoint.

I'd like to try to use this idea to explain = the confusing terms appeared in my composite device PR. I'll use the = router to be the example.

A router = consists of several slots: one main control slot and some = line-processing or feature-processing slots. Each slot has a TPM and a = CPU and can do the measured boot within this slot. Therefore the remote = attestation of the router should consider verifying all the slots.
The router is the "attester". For each slot in the router, it = has an "attesting environment" (Root of Trust for Measurement) and = several "target environment" (TPM, bootloader, OS, etc.), and this = "attesting env" produces a set of "claims" about these "target env".

One traditional method of doing remote = attestation for this router may be the main control slot collects each = set of "claims" which are separately produced by each slot, and puts all = the "claims" together to be the "evidence" of the whole "attester" = (maybe here some other operations like signature are also needed), then = conveys the "evidence" to the "verifier" (only the main control slot can = communicate with the verifier).

My PR (https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/architecture/pull/13) = wants to consider another method. The main difference is: after = collecting all the "claims", the main control slot (the "attesting env" = in it) can verify the "claims" of other slots and produces a different = set of "claims" about the verification results, then it combines the = original "claims" of its own and "claims" of the verification results of = other slots to produce the "evidence".

So = the "leader and subordinate units" are the slots of the router. The = "attestation result of subordinate units" is just some sets of "claims" = of the "Evidence of the Attester".

-----Original = Message-----
From: RATS [mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Smith, Ned
Sent: Thursday, January 9, 2020 9:34 AM
To: = Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>; Michael Richardson
<mcr@sandelman.ca>; Laurence Lundblade <lgl@island-resort.com>
Cc: rats@ietf.org; = "Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder, J=C3=BCrgen"
<J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>
Subject: Re: [Rats] looking for better terms -- request for = bike shed
discussion

Equating = the "attester" with an "attesting environment" may be fallacious.
For example, the TA might be the thing that signs the = conveyance protocol
frames and delivers the cert chain to = the Verifier. However, it (the TA) isn't an
"attesting = environment" it only ever is a "target environment".

The Verifier MUST(?) detect the DICE layering convention and = walk the
graph back to the original (root) "attesting = environment". Even with DICE
layering, there is still only = a single "device" (endpoint) that the RATS Role
will call = "Attester" and it consists of multiple "attesting environments" and
multiple "target environments" where some of these are both = an "attesting"
and a "target" environment during its = lifetime.

It may be incorrect to say that = the TA is the RATS "Attester" because the
Attester is = supposed to be a pledge that can prove it is a trustworthy
endpoint to the Verifer. The endpoint isn't just the TA, it = is the chain of
things that anchors it to the first = "attesting environment".

The root/anchor = "attesting" environment relies on its mfg to establish trust
using a mfg issued certificate that vouches for the process = that
manufactured it and likely issues an identity = credential (IDevID). The IDevID
allows the Verifier to = disambiguate which of possibly multiple instances of
Attesters it is talking to currently.

It seems reasonable that an EAT submod structure can be used = to represent
DICE layering (so could an X.509 certificate = chain). However, a submod
could also describe other = relationships / decompositions of a
multi-component = endpoint. For example, if the OP-TEE consisted of
multiple = chips then there could be multiple vendors, part numbers etc.. and
therefore multiple submods where all of them (likely) are = "target
environments".

DICE = layering comprehends hierarchies too. If one of the OPTEE sub
components had DICE capabilities it could become an = "attesting
environment" to one of the OPTEE chips = (branches). But this more complex
thing is still dependent = on its path to the anchor/root "attesting
environment" so = it can't (in isolation) claim to be the "attester".

If the TEE was an SGX instead of an OPTEE, then the anchor = "attesting
environment" is SGX uCode rather than HW --> = Trusted FW. The SGX
"attesting" and "target" environments = are orthogonal to the non-SGX
"attesting" and "target" = environments, but nevertheless part of an IA
"device". It = is possible therefore to have multiple "Attesters" in the same
SGX-capable "device".

-Ned

=EF=BB=BFOn 1/8/20, 4:02 PM, "Dave Thaler" = <dthaler@microsoft.com> wrote:

   I don't think I have any problems with = Laurence's terminology but just
to test it...

   We have devices running = Trusted Apps on OP-TEE over trusted
firmware on an ARM = TrustZone processor.
   The full evidence = is a DICE cert chain that has a set of claims for each
cert = in the chain, where each layer is an attesting environment for the
subsequent layer (attested environment):
=     Hardware -> Trusted Firmware = -> OP-TEE -> TA
   Thus there are = four claim sets in a chain.

=    Using Laurence's terminology, I believe the suggestion = is that attesting
environment is an "attester" and an = attested environment is a "target".
Thus the example above = has 3 attesters (Hardware, TFW, and OP-TEE), and 4
targets = (HW where target =3D=3D attester, TFW, OP-TEE, and TA).

   Are you ok with saying that every claimset = in a chain is from a separate
"attester"?   I = believe this is different from our current definition of
Attester (which is the thing that sends the whole chain to a = verifier), so want
to confirm.

=    Dave

=    -----Original Message-----
=    From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Michael = Richardson
   Sent: Wednesday, January 8, = 2020 11:35 AM
   To: Laurence Lundblade = <lgl@island-resort.com>
=    Cc: =3D?utf-8?B?IlNjaMO2bnfDpGxkZXIsIErDvHJnZW4i?=3D
<J.Schoenwaelder@jacobs-university.de>; Smith, Ned
<ned.smith@intel.com>; rats@ietf.org
   Subject: = Re: [Rats] looking for better terms -- request for bike shed
discussion


=    Thank you for this very nice text. I rather like = it.

   Laurence Lundblade = <lgl@island-resort.com> wrote:
Here=E2=80=99s some rough text:

Conceptually, the =E2=80=9Cattester=E2=80=9D produces a set = of =E2=80=9Cclaims=E2=80=9D about a
=E2=80=9Ctarget=E2=80=9D.
The claims are known as = =E2=80=9Cattestation evidence=E2=80=9D and are sent to
the
=E2=80=9Cverifier=E2=80=9D. The verifier additionally takes = in =E2=80=9Cendorsements=E2=80=9D,
processes
the attestation = evidence and produces the =E2=80=9Cattestation result=E2=80=9D for
the
final consumer, the =E2=80=9Crelying party=E2=80=9D.


This description left conceptual for easy = understanding and
discussion.
Actual implementations = are usually more complex in at least one
or = more
of these = ways:



* The attester is also = the target


* One attester produces = claims about several targets
(submodules)


* The verifier and the relying party are the same
* Claims may be simple or complex, many or few
* = Some claims are measurements and some are not
* Some = claims in in the attestation evidence may be simply
passed
through the verifier, others may be heavily processed.
* Daisy chaining -- the evidence from one attester goes = through
a
verifier producing results which are taken as = claims that are input
to another attester that outputs a = different set of evidence that
goes on through a different = verifier.
* Daisy chaining may happen on the device = producing the
attestations
or in the infrastructure = evaluating the device or both.


(Next = I=E2=80=99d write a plethoras of simple examples for attester, = target,
claims=E2=80=A6 assuming only the simplest = implementation that maps
to the
conceptual description = )






I am starting to prefer the basic conceptual / = abstract description
over one
that is inherently = mappable to every possible.

LL

=    _______________________________________________
   RATS mailing list
=    RATS@ietf.org

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w.ietf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Frats&amp;data=3D02%7C01%7= Cdthaler
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data=3DfynNh%2FKEJgaGj1fQNwQYBjdgxQE5XUFl%2BeyA0nOkpJs%3D&a= m
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= --Apple-Mail=_45B8BEF8-38D2-4D7C-9D81-D96D4878AFAF-- From nobody Thu Jan 9 12:35:17 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A650712011B for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2020 12:35:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.12 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.12 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (768-bit key) header.d=hardjono.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KaXH927ubzt1 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 2020 12:35:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from gateway30.websitewelcome.com (gateway30.websitewelcome.com [50.116.125.1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9B0BD120047 for ; 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Thu, 09 Jan 2020 13:24:23 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.10.11.191208 Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2020 15:24:21 -0500 From: Thomas Hardjono To: Dave Thaler , "Smith, Ned" , Michael Richardson , Laurence Lundblade CC: "rats@ietf.org" , "=?UTF-8?B?U2Now7Zud8OkbGRlcg==?=, =?UTF-8?B?IErDvHJnZW4=?=" Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [Rats] looking for better terms -- request for bike shed discussion References: <26979.1578413051@localhost> <6291CF16-BBDC-4A12-A0C0-FDFBAB494A31@island-resort.com> <20200107165432.zmpm6yilgr6fogrh@anna.jacobs.jacobs-university.de> <0FB69139-54DE-4F1B-906F-12B83D1EDEED@island-resort.com> <31998.1578512094@localhost> In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - box5207.bluehost.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - hardjono.net X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 73.167.220.69 X-Source-L: No X-Exim-ID: 1ipeLv-00223O-QN X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: c-73-167-220-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net ([10.0.0.194]) [73.167.220.69]:56764 X-Source-Auth: ietf-rats@hardjono.net X-Email-Count: 2 X-Source-Cap: aGFyZGpvbm87aGFyZGpvbm87Ym94NTIwNy5ibHVlaG9zdC5jb20= X-Local-Domain: yes Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] looking for better terms -- request for bike shed discussion X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2020 20:35:16 -0000 I'm also good with Ned's description. =20 Calling it out as the "Attesting Environment" and "Attester" clearly is use= ful to avoid future confusion (which is bound to happen when we start talkin= g about turtles all the way down). -- thomas -- =EF=BB=BF-----Original Message----- From: RATS on behalf of Dave Thaler Date: Wednesday, January 8, 2020 at 8:36 PM To: "Smith, Ned" , Michael Richardson , Laurence Lundblade Cc: "rats@ietf.org" , "Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder, J=C3=BCrgen" Subject: Re: [Rats] looking for better terms -- request for bike shed discu= ssion I think I agree with everything Ned said below. :) Dave -----Original Message----- From: Smith, Ned =20 Sent: Wednesday, January 8, 2020 5:34 PM To: Dave Thaler ; Michael Richardson ; Laurence Lundblade Cc: "Sch=C3=B6nw=C3=A4lder, J=C3=BCrgen" ; rats@i= etf.org Subject: Re: [Rats] looking for better terms -- request for bike shed discu= ssion Equating the "attester" with an "attesting environment" may be fallacious. = For example, the TA might be the thing that signs the conveyance protocol fr= ames and delivers the cert chain to the Verifier. However, it (the TA) isn't= an "attesting environment" it only ever is a "target environment".=20 The Verifier MUST(?) detect the DICE layering convention and walk the graph= back to the original (root) "attesting environment". Even with DICE layerin= g, there is still only a single "device" (endpoint) that the RATS Role will = call "Attester" and it consists of multiple "attesting environments" and mul= tiple "target environments" where some of these are both an "attesting" and = a "target" environment during its lifetime.=20 It may be incorrect to say that the TA is the RATS "Attester" because the A= ttester is supposed to be a pledge that can prove it is a trustworthy endpoi= nt to the Verifer. The endpoint isn't just the TA, it is the chain of things= that anchors it to the first "attesting environment".=20 The root/anchor "attesting" environment relies on its mfg to establish trus= t using a mfg issued certificate that vouches for the process that manufactu= red it and likely issues an identity credential (IDevID). The IDevID allows = the Verifier to disambiguate which of possibly multiple instances of Atteste= rs it is talking to currently.=20 It seems reasonable that an EAT submod structure can be used to represent D= ICE layering (so could an X.509 certificate chain). However, a submod could = also describe other relationships / decompositions of a multi-component endp= oint. For example, if the OP-TEE consisted of multiple chips then there coul= d be multiple vendors, part numbers etc.. and therefore multiple submods whe= re all of them (likely) are "target environments". =20 DICE layering comprehends hierarchies too. If one of the OPTEE sub componen= ts had DICE capabilities it could become an "attesting environment" to one o= f the OPTEE chips (branches). But this more complex thing is still dependent= on its path to the anchor/root "attesting environment" so it can't (in isol= ation) claim to be the "attester".=20 If the TEE was an SGX instead of an OPTEE, then the anchor "attesting envir= onment" is SGX uCode rather than HW --> Trusted FW. The SGX "attesting" and = "target" environments are orthogonal to the non-SGX "attesting" and "target"= environments, but nevertheless part of an IA "device". It is possible there= fore to have multiple "Attesters" in the same SGX-capable "device". -Ned =EF=BB=BFOn 1/8/20, 4:02 PM, "Dave Thaler" wrote: I don't think I have any problems with Laurence's terminology but just = to test it... =20 We have devices running Trusted Apps on OP-TEE over trusted firmware on= an ARM TrustZone processor. The full evidence is a DICE cert chain that has a set of claims for eac= h cert in the chain, where each layer is an attesting environment for the su= bsequent layer (attested environment): Hardware -> Trusted Firmware -> OP-TEE -> TA Thus there are four claim sets in a chain. =20 Using Laurence's terminology, I believe the suggestion is that attestin= g environment is an "attester" and an attested environment is a "target". = Thus the example above has 3 attesters (Hardware, TFW, and OP-TEE), and 4 ta= rgets (HW where target =3D=3D attester, TFW, OP-TEE, and TA). =20 Are you ok with saying that every claimset in a chain is from a separat= e "attester"? I believe this is different from our current definition of A= ttester (which is the thing that sends the whole chain to a verifier), so wa= nt to confirm. =20 Dave =20 -----Original Message----- From: RATS On Behalf Of Michael Richardson Sent: Wednesday, January 8, 2020 11:35 AM To: Laurence Lundblade Cc: =3D?utf-8?B?IlNjaMO2bnfDpGxkZXIsIErDvHJnZW4i?=3D ; Smith, Ned ; rats@ietf.org Subject: Re: [Rats] looking for better terms -- request for bike shed d= iscussion =20 =20 Thank you for this very nice text. I rather like it. =20 Laurence Lundblade wrote: > Here=E2=80=99s some rough text: =20 > Conceptually, the =E2=80=9Cattester=E2=80=9D produces a set of =E2=80=9Cclaims=E2=80=9D a= bout a =E2=80=9Ctarget=E2=80=9D. > The claims are known as =E2=80=9Cattestation evidence=E2=80=9D and are sent t= o the > =E2=80=9Cverifier=E2=80=9D. The verifier additionally takes in =E2=80=9Cendorsement= s=E2=80=9D, processes > the attestation evidence and produces the =E2=80=9Cattestation result=E2=80= =9D for the > final consumer, the =E2=80=9Crelying party=E2=80=9D. =20 =20 > This description left conceptual for easy understanding and discu= ssion. > Actual implementations are usually more complex in at least one o= r more > of these ways: =20 =20 =20 > * The attester is also the target =20 =20 > * One attester produces claims about several targets (submodules) =20 =20 > * The verifier and the relying party are the same > * Claims may be simple or complex, many or few > * Some claims are measurements and some are not > * Some claims in in the attestation evidence may be simply passed > through the verifier, others may be heavily processed. > * Daisy chaining -- the evidence from one attester goes through a > verifier producing results which are taken as claims that are inp= ut > to another attester that outputs a different set of evidence that > goes on through a different verifier. > * Daisy chaining may happen on the device producing the attestati= ons > or in the infrastructure evaluating the device or both. =20 =20 > (Next I=E2=80=99d write a plethoras of simple examples for attester, ta= rget, > claims=E2=80=A6 assuming only the simplest implementation that maps to = the > conceptual description ) =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 > I am starting to prefer the basic conceptual / abstract descripti= on over one > that is inherently mappable to every possible. =20 > LL =20 _______________________________________________ RATS mailing list RATS@ietf.org https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.i= etf.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Frats&data=3D02%7C01%7Cdthaler%40microsoft.c= om%7C3ca5bb5fc5d84a6f6f6208d794a4120a%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1= %7C0%7C637141304715148942&sdata=3D2LW6xIN2AAm7bkYQIlpqGQRTwT76Bp0GYqxQbIbN= 3UM%3D&reserved=3D0 =20 _______________________________________________ RATS mailing list RATS@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats From nobody Fri Jan 10 04:38:36 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDA2A12006E; 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Fri, 10 Jan 2020 12:38:21 +0000 From: Hannes Tschofenig To: "suit@ietf.org" , "teep@ietf.org" , "rats@ietf.org" CC: Matthias Waehlisch Thread-Topic: Hackathon almost "sold out" Thread-Index: AdXHsmMEnC9PXg28SzuFAbnu/zp/Rg== Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 12:38:21 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ts-tracking-id: 10ac53aa-c6ec-4d75-9447-a9c2c7d79957.0 x-checkrecipientchecked: true Authentication-Results-Original: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com; x-originating-ip: [195.149.223.43] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email X-MS-Office365-Filtering-HT: Tenant X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: adc5644a-bb14-49af-5de8-08d795c9fe15 X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: AM6PR08MB5128:|AM6PR08MB3381: X-Microsoft-Antispam-PRVS: x-checkrecipientrouted: true x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:8273;OLM:10000; x-forefront-prvs: 02788FF38E X-Forefront-Antispam-Report-Untrusted: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009020)(4636009)(376002)(136003)(396003)(346002)(366004)(39860400002)(189003)(199004)(53754006)(40434004)(66476007)(66556008)(316002)(64756008)(66946007)(76116006)(66446008)(55016002)(110136005)(8936002)(81156014)(8676002)(81166006)(9686003)(86362001)(966005)(6506007)(478600001)(7696005)(5660300002)(4744005)(26005)(71200400001)(33656002)(4326008)(186003)(52536014)(2906002); 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Ip=[63.35.35.123]; Helo=[64aa7808-outbound-1.mta.getcheckrecipient.com] X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: HybridOnPrem X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM6PR08MB3381 Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] Hackathon almost "sold out" X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 12:38:36 -0000 Hi all, the deadline for the "Securing the IoT (SIoT) Hackathon" is in 7 days but w= e are reaching our maximum participant limit already. If you plan to participate and have not yet registered, please do so as soo= n as possible. Here is the webpage with the registration link: https://siot-hackathon.github.io Ciao Hannes & Matthias IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in = any medium. Thank you. IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confid= ential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, p= lease notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any= other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in = any medium. Thank you. From nobody Tue Jan 14 10:54:52 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECD3C120B05 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2020 10:54:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=github.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zeZVmH7S0yCv for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2020 10:54:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from out-24.smtp.github.com (out-24.smtp.github.com [192.30.252.207]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6E47E120B10 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2020 10:54:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from github-lowworker-d93c4b6.va3-iad.github.net (github-lowworker-d93c4b6.va3-iad.github.net [10.48.17.47]) by smtp.github.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9D676A1AC8 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2020 10:54:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=github.com; s=pf2014; t=1579028087; bh=F3rV+ZtQXYH3YmM9gDJUYRTMrzUpKhxgoK6QcKbmY8g=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:From; b=PjNDm6PxgxM0vKDpvXYky3dhQJUaQYOq1WIBnJN3HTWyqyIRIv9mgM1nd2gY0OLx5 SkFrs2GOrAo1c8T4qzWvVZviqZv9En9vZ6LM9i0TjkGJJyNzCGqBoBp+0KH52HFOzq 8yKSQ08ptofqJ/ZBTJY8Nyltln3WDYd86t0CRK3I= Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 10:54:47 -0800 From: Laurence Lundblade To: rats@ietf.org Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-GitHub-Recipient-Address: rats@ietf.org X-Auto-Response-Suppress: All Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] [ietf-rats-wg/eat] eed56c: Rework to clarify inheritance and relations betwee... X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 18:54:50 -0000 Branch: refs/heads/update_debug_claim Home: https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat Commit: eed56c2e37e4d8b31da97df02c5fcd3efb2347ed https://github.com/ietf-rats-wg/eat/commit/eed56c2e37e4d8b31da97df02c5fcd3efb2347ed Author: Laurence Lundblade Date: 2020-01-14 (Tue, 14 Jan 2020) Changed paths: M draft-ietf-rats-eat.md Log Message: ----------- Rework to clarify inheritance and relations between submodules and superior modules From nobody Tue Jan 14 11:03:48 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F0C012093D for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2020 11:03:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.895 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.895 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0aSTsrFWACbo for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2020 11:03:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from p3plsmtpa07-05.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa07-05.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [173.201.192.234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 30DCE1208EA for ; Tue, 14 Jan 2020 11:03:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.76] ([76.167.193.86]) by :SMTPAUTH: with ESMTPA id rRTXiHqnOXcz7rRTXiItmb; Tue, 14 Jan 2020 12:03:39 -0700 From: Laurence Lundblade Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C6E94CAF-F83E-4D8B-9AE7-2AA826F70368" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 11:03:39 -0800 To: rats@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfClxDG6iD/wBqvrQkS1trHhiNHJbIwvwRUaQzyF8snyytAC6SGlzNdDPYZOuMi6FRgEiETKZyhziuPbG1s8ESTIET5PN29X6z5xoGf/ZGVTEueYf9Qem zSBzP+RQRkhq53ZFnpXrt3UIj2awPbc9UP6vN79A9ZDNa2c9T8wQyW1c Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] Update to debug state PR X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 19:03:47 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_C6E94CAF-F83E-4D8B-9AE7-2AA826F70368 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 This is to call your attention to an update to the debug state PR = . This lines up with the new submodules PR = where there is *no = inheritance* from superior module to submodule or vice versa. That means = all debug states are reported independently which is quite different = from what was there before, hence my explicitly pointing this out. I=E2=80=99ve started using the term =E2=80=9Ctarget=E2=80=9D (aka = attested environment) to refer to the (bounded) sub system that a claims = is about. The target can of course be different from the attester. This = is starting to seem like a critical and very clarifying distinction in = the text. Comments please! LL --Apple-Mail=_C6E94CAF-F83E-4D8B-9AE7-2AA826F70368 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 This = is to call your attention to an update to the debug = state PR.

This = lines up with the new submodules= PR where there is *no inheritance* from superior module to = submodule or vice versa. That means all debug states are reported = independently which is quite different from what was there before, hence = my explicitly pointing this out.

I=E2=80=99ve started using the term = =E2=80=9Ctarget=E2=80=9D (aka attested environment) to refer to the = (bounded) sub system that a claims is about. The target can of course be = different from the attester. This is starting to seem like a critical = and very clarifying distinction in the text.

Comments please!
LL


= --Apple-Mail=_C6E94CAF-F83E-4D8B-9AE7-2AA826F70368-- From nobody Wed Jan 15 13:52:47 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B49CC1209CB for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 13:52:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=github.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kNWabmYOHYeY for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 13:52:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from out-5.smtp.github.com (out-5.smtp.github.com [192.30.252.196]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2C66F1209C9 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 13:52:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from github-lowworker-cd7bc13.ac4-iad.github.net (github-lowworker-cd7bc13.ac4-iad.github.net [10.52.25.102]) by smtp.github.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29D9B9607AB for ; Wed, 15 Jan 2020 13:52:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=github.com; s=pf2014; t=1579125163; bh=pPoztRgPnz5uhHTdPsv/UXdlsNvr6O0zY30cKTaXJFk=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:From; b=1aj6gX5QZ6PjW6/bRBQb24lgJ9BBxxieSwX1fdzglzqtCM8PAHTnNbdubDStV0iNA xAY22Qz9r+BHQ7+JHJuEYtUD0IKj/7gxmYC++U1VsJEFBRZKRV0dB3ubH2o7dEJKzq N8OQUKUuBVIUqSzez0cKf1yz/Oys75O8IPkm8by0= Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 13:52:43 -0800 From: Laurence Lundblade To: rats@ietf.org Message-ID: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-GitHub-Recipient-Address: rats@ietf.org X-Auto-Response-Suppress: All Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] [ietf-rats-wg/eat] 1cc5a0: Add the Not Reported debug level and indicate that... 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aXY+DQo8L2JvZHk+DQo8L2h0bWw+DQo= --_000_FCF313B933814C65B2BC15639D5E6AD5ciscocom_-- From nobody Wed Jan 22 08:38:52 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39408120120 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 08:38:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id krWunr9TuEaa for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 08:38:48 -0800 (PST) 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-0500 Message-ID: To: "Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing)" , Ira McDonald Cc: "rats@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000973ae1059cbd287a" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] First of 2 Virtual Interim X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2020 16:38:50 -0000 --000000000000973ae1059cbd287a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Nancy, I can't participate in this RATS Interim. I'll be remotely participating all that week in the next ISO TC22/SC32/WG12 Road Vehicles Software Update meeting in Berlin, Germany. Cheers, - Ira On Wed, Jan 22, 2020 at 7:15 AM Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) < ncamwing@cisco.com> wrote: > Correction: the times are in EST! That is Feb 5 and Mar 2 at 10am EST, 7a= m > PST. > > > > Apologies for any confusion, > > Nancy > > > > *From: *RATS on behalf of ncamwing < > ncamwing@cisco.com> > *Date: *Wednesday, January 22, 2020 at 2:23 AM > *To: *"rats@ietf.org" > *Subject: *[Rats] First of 2 Virtual Interim > > > > All, > > Trying a 3rd time: > > > > Based on the doodle poll, we have quorum to have virtual interims on Feb = 5 > and Mar 2 at 10am PST for an hour each. > > > > Thus far, there=E2=80=99s been a request to lead off the first virtual wi= th EAT, > it may be that EAT and topics around it take the full hour. > > If there are other topics you want discussed on Feb 5 or on Mar 2, please > send your requests to rats-chairs@ietf.org. > > > > The webex info is attached and: > > JOIN WEBEX MEETING > > https://ietf.webex.com/ietf/j.php?MTID=3Dmd36943019b8315e247c98ba4adc8a1d= 1 > > Meeting number (access code): 313 996 868 > > Meeting password: mBuy8Das > > > > > > JOIN BY PHONE > > 1-650-479-3208 Call-in toll number (US/Canada) > > Tap here to call (mobile phones only, hosts not supported): > tel:%2B1-650-479-3208,,*01*313996868%23%23*01* > > > > > > JOIN FROM A VIDEO SYSTEM OR APPLICATION > > Dial sip:313996868@ietf.webex.com > > You can also dial 173.243.2.68 and enter your meeting number. > > > > > > Join using Microsoft Lync or Microsoft Skype for Business > > Dial sip:313996868.ietf@lync.webex.com > > > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > --000000000000973ae1059cbd287a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Nancy,

I can't partic= ipate in this RATS Interim.

I'll be remotely p= articipating all that week in the next ISO TC22/SC32/WG12
Road Ve= hicles Software Update meeting in Berlin, Germany.

Cheers,
- Ira


On Wed, Jan 22, 2020 at 7:15 A= M Nancy Cam-Winget (ncamwing) <nca= mwing@cisco.com> wrote:

Correction: the times= are in EST! That is Feb 5 and Mar 2 at 10am EST, 7am PST.

=C2=A0<= /span>

Apologies for any con= fusion,

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Nancy=

=C2=A0<= /span>

From: RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of ncamwing <ncamwing@cisco.com>
Date: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 at 2:23 AM
To: "rats@ie= tf.org" <rat= s@ietf.org>
Subject: [Rats] First of 2 Virtual Interim

=C2=A0<= /span>

All,=

Trying a 3rd time:

=C2=A0<= u>

Based on the doodle p= oll, we have quorum to have virtual interims on Feb 5 and Mar 2 at 10am PST= for an hour each.

=C2=A0<= u>

Thus far, there=E2=80= =99s been a request to lead off the first virtual with EAT, it may be that = EAT and topics around it take the full hour.

If there are other to= pics you want discussed on Feb 5 or on Mar 2, please send your requests to rats-chairs@ietf.= org.

=C2=A0<= u>

The webex info is att= ached and:

JOIN WEBEX MEETING

https://ietf.webex.com= /ietf/j.php?MTID=3Dmd36943019b8315e247c98ba4adc8a1d1

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Thu, 23 Jan 2020 00:04:30 +0000 From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" To: "Birkholz, Henk" , Michael Richardson , Dave Thaler , "Smith, Ned" CC: "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Composite Evidence Thread-Index: AdXRgB49sEcLGXWTRbyFhaWoEjRAww== Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 00:04:29 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=evoit@cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [173.38.117.65] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: c8fc203f-d06c-4ee2-986e-08d79f97d1f2 x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BYASPR01MB0013: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:7691; x-forefront-prvs: 029174C036 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009020)(4636009)(346002)(39860400002)(366004)(396003)(136003)(376002)(189003)(199004)(8676002)(86362001)(81156014)(478600001)(8936002)(81166006)(316002)(71200400001)(3480700007)(2906002)(110136005)(76116006)(4326008)(66946007)(66446008)(64756008)(66556008)(66476007)(66616009)(9686003)(55016002)(5660300002)(52536014)(7696005)(7116003)(6506007)(33656002)(186003)(26005); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:BYASPR01MB0013; H:BYAPR11MB2536.namprd11.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: cisco.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: EN7owLEPwD8k/UgSL7HvmwNyDlWYb9ruyTuiHUwYkX2EaJ8hGF9+YU10zjVCssOTnqWKtsIzjTFlF/sQehST/bDyTwwzFaXmx32Bwrn1FDeGoDVt2hcIE05bnpVn8VOnz8yMq6hMN87y4n56a1zILGlJmCITajN29RFz8aU0a8viJmCqt/gIkK0jWfyC1wy+SonNzRY6L514ndnGhQZeTFgT/9vBEimQ/1ZCNlqUUA4az2aVQs/grO2qjvNPO5qIy/xKiYVPX9mzH/Dq+yz2WRX1oEfx4ZxeSZD7Wkx2WstvVGQ9SJBUjTghvASWAsQmVOOxa1HTTF84NmUhgehaMPRy5TgjZS2fii3UZN8PLVXn847xuM9b0gWmBBqrYCUBVMdJ+PoYgVVPXhQ1xMbiZakjayqBWTsjA+1vTytljrmj8SaSyzVynGCRYPq2El1v x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=SHA1; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_045D_01D5D156.3591FC10" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: c8fc203f-d06c-4ee2-986e-08d79f97d1f2 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 23 Jan 2020 00:04:30.2582 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: iC3gnxBakTlQB0x4Ki/EZ+q6KJg/Npay+DVWKlLpuZci39MJw1MjLPBs/faiN2E1 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYASPR01MB0013 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.15, xch-rcd-005.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-2.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] Composite Evidence X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 00:04:37 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_045D_01D5D156.3591FC10 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_045E_01D5D156.3591FC10" ------=_NextPart_001_045E_01D5D156.3591FC10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Henk, Dave, Michael, Ned, I promised you a definition for Composite Evidence. You can see my proposed definition directly the text below, but I am not willing yet to place it in a Pull Request. I thought an email thread might be helpful first. Anyway my strawman definition for Composite Evidence is: Evidence which includes multiple sub-elements of evidence, more than one of which can be computationally verified to have been generated by a specific Attester Subcomponent or Verifier. I built this definition considering the passport model, which looks like it will often needs to use composite evidence. As an example of why I believe this, see the use case below. .--------------. | Verifier A | '--------------' ^ [2] | Verifier A signed Attestation Results @time(x) ( evidence( | determination, hash(TpmQuote@time(x))) TpmQuote | @time(x)) | [1] V .-------------. .---------------. | Attester |<------nonce @time(y)---[3]| Verifier B | | .-----. | | / | | | Tpm | |[4]-composite evidence ( ->| Relying Party | | '-----' | TpmQuote@time(y), '---------------' '-------------' TpmQuote@time(x), Verifier A signed Attestation Results @time(x) ) In the example above, evidence at time x is generated and signed within a TPM. This would *not* be composite evidence. This evidence would be evaluated by Verifier A, signed, and returned as Attestation Results to the Attester. A subsequent request from a Relying Party at time y could pull three independently signed elements of evidence from the Attester. These three would comprise the composite evidence which when taken together would allow Verifier B / Relying Party to evaluate the current trustworthiness of the Attester. Does this definition meet your needs? Thanks, Eric ------=_NextPart_001_045E_01D5D156.3591FC10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Henk,=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 Dave,

Michael,=C2=A0=C2=A0 = =C2=A0Ned,

 

I promised you a = definition for Composite Evidence.=C2=A0 You can see my proposed = definition directly the text below, but I am not willing yet to place it = in a Pull Request. I thought an email thread might be helpful = first.

 

Anyway my strawman = definition for Composite Evidence is: =C2=A0Evidence which includes multiple sub-elements of = evidence, more than one of which can be computationally verified to have = been generated by a specific Attester Subcomponent or = Verifier.

 

I built this = definition considering the passport model, which looks like it will = often needs to use composite evidence.=C2=A0 As an example of why I = believe this, see the use case below.

 

    = .--------------.         &nb= sp;  

    |  Verifier A  = |

    = '--------------'    

        ^ =     = [2]           =

        | =     Verifier A signed Attestation Results @time(x) = (

    evidence(  |  = determination, hash(TpmQuote@time(x))) 

    TpmQuote   = |            =      

    @time(x))  = |            =             =

       [1] &nbs= p;   = V            =             =

     .-------------. &nbs= p;            = ;            = .---------------.

     |  Attester   = |<------nonce @time(y)---[3]|  Verifier B   = |

     |    = .-----.  = |            =             &= nbsp;  |       = /       |

     |    | Tpm = |  |[4]-composite evidence ( ->| Relying Party = |

     |    = '-----'  |      = TpmQuote@time(y),    = '---------------'

     = '-------------'      TpmQuote@time(x),  =

         &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;    Verifier A signed Attestation Results = @time(x) = )            =           =

 

 

In the example above, = evidence at time x is generated and signed within a TPM.  This = would *not* be composite evidence.   This evidence would be = evaluated by Verifier A, signed, and returned as Attestation Results to = the Attester.   A subsequent request from a Relying Party at = time y could pull three independently signed elements of evidence from = the Attester.  These three would comprise the composite evidence = which when taken together would allow Verifier B / Relying Party to = evaluate the current trustworthiness of the = Attester.

 

Does this definition = meet your needs?

 

Thanks,

Eric

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ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 22 Jan 2020 17:54:30 -0800 X-ExtLoop1: 1 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.70,352,1574150400"; d="scan'208,217";a="285760386" Received: from orsmsx101.amr.corp.intel.com ([10.22.225.128]) by fmsmga001.fm.intel.com with ESMTP; 22 Jan 2020 17:54:31 -0800 Received: from orsmsx113.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.240.9) by ORSMSX101.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.225.128) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.439.0; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 17:54:30 -0800 Received: from orsmsx109.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.11.6]) by ORSMSX113.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.9.57]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 17:54:30 -0800 From: "Smith, Ned" To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" , "Birkholz, Henk" , Michael Richardson , Dave Thaler CC: "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Composite Evidence Thread-Index: AdXRgB49sEcLGXWTRbyFhaWoEjRAwwAD+4eA Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 01:54:29 +0000 Message-ID: <582E844D-48C1-44CA-A94E-3FD4F1F9EDF3@intel.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US 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02:04:41 +0000 From: Dave Thaler To: Ned Smith , "Eric Voit (evoit)" , "Birkholz, Henk" , Michael Richardson CC: "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Composite Evidence Thread-Index: AdXRgB49sEcLGXWTRbyFhaWoEjRAwwAD+4eAAABTccA= Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 02:04:41 +0000 Message-ID: References: <582E844D-48C1-44CA-A94E-3FD4F1F9EDF3@intel.com> In-Reply-To: <582E844D-48C1-44CA-A94E-3FD4F1F9EDF3@intel.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: msip_labels: MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Enabled=True; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_SiteId=72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Owner=dthaler@ntdev.microsoft.com; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_SetDate=2020-01-23T02:04:41.5804837Z; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Name=General; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Application=Microsoft Azure Information Protection; 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Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A9C60120018 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 18:40:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBEE93897E for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 21:39:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id A86149B0 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 21:40:29 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: "rats\@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 25.1.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Composite Evidence X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 02:40:33 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Eric Voit (evoit) wrote: > I promised you a definition for Composite Evidence. You can see my proposed > definition directly the text below, but I am not willing yet to place > it in a > Pull Request. I thought an email thread might be helpful first. First, I found the diagram confusing, because I think you rotated our previous diagram 90 degress clockwise. The Verifier A, was in my mind, towards me (in the third dimension) out, "above" the "Internal Verifier", which we asked to have renamed "Claims Collector" (Screw the monochrome SVG debate... lets go VRML) Second, I found the extra hash(),@time, stuff distracting, as it went into a level of detail that just confused me. > Anyway my strawman definition for Composite Evidence is: Evidence which > includes multiple sub-elements of evidence, more than one of which can be > computationally verified to have been generated by a specific Attester > Subcomponent or Verifier. I am not sure what "computationally" verified means. Give an example of something that would not fall into that category. Maybe you are trying to abstract "has a signature" to things that can be verified without a asymmetric digital signature. (KerbV Ticket?) I think that the key thing that we needed to be able to say is that Composite Evidence is not: 1) struct evidence_claims foo[]; -or- 2) struct attestation_results foo[]; but rather: union composite_evidence { struct evidence_claims ec; struct attestation_results ar; } foo[]; were I more hip, I'd learn to write this in CDDL. -- ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh networks [ ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | IoT architect [ ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails [ -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl4pB50ACgkQgItw+93Q 3WWqpQf+NzhyHAZlEdE/D6z8ecm7cbUQLk/vfaY28HJ0jCR935a7IoEZC5CRpSEl lj5Xxztvmz8enSC56As+LIs5J5Yb2XxRqIpzH/ubvI6QQ0wqqM+SR6yuu6psCisC JEoE7EjkdSqcX0mkxz8OwTsnS/OWOmt7Y3+iqnGKnwCjaBAd3dINlUsldsB2u2lx mJBzOIrWRaQ9Pv9B+c+no2xjiS5C0NqCV3YNUXjPzcYlTfI3Ebl/XyO9MHvlnhiq 1DjQDMip7WvS/v3MJsQThhS0cfr4Di+WNALXbKl86Kz7DFIwoedx82WKZhsDvW/m 4wQSWGY6fQqcXjlTFWfnP4d6WsPP3Q== =iFVp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Wed Jan 22 23:53:44 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F60412016E for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 23:53:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Am7NIVG2ICey for ; Wed, 22 Jan 2020 23:53:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com 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23 Jan 2020 15:39:57 +0000 From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" To: Dave Thaler , Ned Smith , "Birkholz, Henk" , Michael Richardson CC: "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Composite Evidence Thread-Index: AdXRgB49sEcLGXWTRbyFhaWoEjRAwwAD+4eAAABTccAAG3YQ8A== Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 15:39:57 +0000 Message-ID: References: <582E844D-48C1-44CA-A94E-3FD4F1F9EDF3@intel.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: msip_labels: MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Enabled=True; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_SiteId=72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Owner=dthaler@ntdev.microsoft.com; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_SetDate=2020-01-23T02:04:41.5804837Z; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Name=General; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Application=Microsoft Azure Information Protection; 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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: db9d1ff0-d973-46a8-93b8-08d7a01a7ff7 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 23 Jan 2020 15:39:57.0811 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: J59XwCNI5uEs8uJq+LrFwgBxCeZPNdIDbStoWhlOMCnrYLzW62L0T6JStpfetfXN X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR11MB2792 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.19, xch-rcd-009.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-9.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Composite Evidence X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 15:40:08 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_0085_01D5D1D9.71809BE0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_0086_01D5D1D9.71809BE0" ------=_NextPart_001_0086_01D5D1D9.71809BE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ned, Hi Dave, =20 I agree with Ned's framing of (i) and (ii). These two are embedded in = my passport example below. We also have (iii): evidence which is = relayed from outside the Attester. I think (iii) needs to be broken out = as an evidence type because signed information from the Verifier should = be trusted differently from other evidence the Attester. =20 That makes: (i) component evidence (ii) time-series evidence (iii) relayed evidence =20 Beyond (i), (ii), & (iii), do we need term combinations of (i), (ii), & = (iii) with the word "composite"? Hopefully we wouldn't need to define = six terms for each combination of these three variants. Otherwise my = example might be called "component, time-series, relayed composite = evidence". And that is a mouthful. =20 Eric =20 =20 From: Dave Thaler, January 22, 2020 9:05 PM Agree with Ned that we should keep composite devices separate from time = series snapshots of the same component in terms of concepts. =20 From: Smith, Ned < ned.smith@intel.com>=20 Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 5:54 PM To: Eric Voit (evoit) < evoit@cisco.com>; = Birkholz, Henk < = henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>; Michael Richardson < = mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>; Dave Thaler < = dthaler@microsoft.com> Cc: rats@ietf.org Subject: Re: Composite Evidence =20 Eric, I think there are two types of =E2=80=9Ccomposite=E2=80=9D things that = could be considered (i) decompositions of hardware and software such as = a motherboard and the sub-components that could be plugged into it and = (ii) time series snapshots of the same component.=20 =20 You seem to be asserting (ii) where a time series snapshot of the same = thing could be considered =E2=80=9Ccomposite evidence=E2=80=9D.=20 =20 I think both cases are valid, but maybe it makes sense to use different = terms for each as they seem to have distinct properties. (e.g. evidence = having multiple entries of a component with the same name under (i) = implies multiple instances of the same type of device =E2=80=93 such as = two NIC cards. Whereas under (ii) multiple entries implies there is one = instance of the NIC sampled over a time interval.=20 =20 -Ned =20 From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" > Date: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 at 4:04 PM To: Henk Berkholz >, Michael Richardson = >, Dave Thaler = >, "Smith, Ned" = > Cc: "rats@ietf.org " > Subject: Composite Evidence =20 Henk, Dave, Michael, Ned, =20 I promised you a definition for Composite Evidence. You can see my = proposed definition directly the text below, but I am not willing yet to = place it in a Pull Request. I thought an email thread might be helpful = first. =20 Anyway my strawman definition for Composite Evidence is: Evidence which = includes multiple sub-elements of evidence, more than one of which can = be computationally verified to have been generated by a specific = Attester Subcomponent or Verifier. =20 I built this definition considering the passport model, which looks like = it will often needs to use composite evidence. As an example of why I = believe this, see the use case below. =20 .--------------. =20 | Verifier A | '--------------' =20 ^ [2] =20 | Verifier A signed Attestation Results @time(x) ( evidence( | determination, hash(TpmQuote@time(x))) =20 TpmQuote | =20 @time(x)) | =20 [1] V =20 .-------------. .---------------. | Attester |<------nonce @time(y)---[3]| Verifier B | | .-----. | | / | | | Tpm | |[4]-composite evidence ( ->| Relying Party | | '-----' | TpmQuote@time(y), '---------------' '-------------' TpmQuote@time(x), =20 Verifier A signed Attestation Results @time(x) = ) =20 =20 =20 In the example above, evidence at time x is generated and signed within = a TPM. This would *not* be composite evidence. This evidence would be = evaluated by Verifier A, signed, and returned as Attestation Results to = the Attester. A subsequent request from a Relying Party at time y = could pull three independently signed elements of evidence from the = Attester. These three would comprise the composite evidence which when = taken together would allow Verifier B / Relying Party to evaluate the = current trustworthiness of the Attester. =20 Does this definition meet your needs? =20 Thanks, Eric ------=_NextPart_001_0086_01D5D1D9.71809BE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi = Ned,

Hi Dave,

 

I agree with Ned's = framing of (i) and (ii).=C2=A0 These two are embedded in my passport = example below.    We also have (iii): evidence = which is relayed from outside the Attester.  I think (iii) needs to = be broken out as an evidence type because signed information from the = Verifier should be trusted differently from other evidence the = Attester.

 

That = makes:

=C2=A0(i) component = evidence

(ii) time-series = evidence

(iii) relayed = evidence

 

Beyond (i), (ii), = & (iii), do we need term combinations of (i), (ii), & (iii) with = the word "composite"?  Hopefully we wouldn't need to = define six terms for each combination of these three variants.=C2=A0 = Otherwise my example might be called "component, time-series, = relayed composite evidence".=C2=A0 And that is a = mouthful.

 

Eric

 

 

From: Dave Thaler, January 22, 2020 9:05 = PM

Agree with Ned that we should = keep composite devices separate from time series snapshots of the same = component in terms of concepts.

 

From: Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 22, = 2020 5:54 PM
To: Eric Voit (evoit) <evoit@cisco.com>; Birkholz, Henk <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>; Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>; Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>
Cc: rats@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Composite = Evidence

 

Eric,

I think there are two = types of =E2=80=9Ccomposite=E2=80=9D things that could be considered (i) = decompositions of hardware and software such as a motherboard and the = sub-components that could be plugged into it and (ii) time series = snapshots of the same component.

 

You seem to be = asserting (ii) where a time series snapshot of the same thing could be = considered =E2=80=9Ccomposite evidence=E2=80=9D. =

 

I think both cases = are valid, but maybe it makes sense to use different terms for each as = they seem to have distinct properties. (e.g. evidence having multiple = entries of a component with the same name  under (i) implies = multiple instances of the same type of device =E2=80=93 such as two NIC = cards. Whereas under (ii) multiple entries implies there is one instance = of the NIC sampled over a time interval.

 

-Ned

 

From: = "Eric Voit (evoit)" = <evoit@cisco.com>
Date: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 = at 4:04 PM
To: Henk Berkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunho= fer.de>, Michael Richardson = <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
Cc: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Subject: Composite = Evidence

 

Henk,       = ;  Dave,

Michael,   =  Ned,

 

I promised you a = definition for Composite Evidence.  You can see my proposed = definition directly the text below, but I am not willing yet to place it = in a Pull Request. I thought an email thread might be helpful = first.

 

Anyway my strawman = definition for Composite Evidence is:  Evidence which includes multiple sub-elements of = evidence, more than one of which can be computationally verified to have = been generated by a specific Attester Subcomponent or = Verifier.

 

I built this = definition considering the passport model, which looks like it will = often needs to use composite evidence.  As an example of why I = believe this, see the use case below.

 

    = .--------------.         &nb= sp;  

    |  Verifier A  = |

    = '--------------'    

        ^ =     = [2]           =

        | =     Verifier A signed Attestation Results @time(x) = (

    evidence(  |  = determination, hash(TpmQuote@time(x))) 

    TpmQuote   = |            =      

    @time(x))  = |            =             =

       [1] &nbs= p;   = V            =             =

     .-------------. &nbs= p;            = ;            = .---------------.

     |  Attester   = |<------nonce @time(y)---[3]|  Verifier B   = |

     |    = .-----.  = |            =             &= nbsp;  |       = /       |

     |    | Tpm = |  |[4]-composite evidence ( ->| Relying Party = |

     |    = '-----'  |      = TpmQuote@time(y),    = '---------------'

     = '-------------'      TpmQuote@time(x),  =

         &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;    Verifier A signed Attestation Results = @time(x) = )            =           =

 

 

In the example above, = evidence at time x is generated and signed within a TPM.  This = would *not* be composite evidence.   This evidence would be = evaluated by Verifier A, signed, and returned as Attestation Results to = the Attester.   A subsequent request from a Relying Party at = time y could pull three independently signed elements of evidence from = the Attester.  These three would comprise the composite evidence = which when taken together would allow Verifier B / Relying Party to = evaluate the current trustworthiness of the = Attester.

 

Does this definition = meet your needs?

 

Thanks,

Eric

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multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=SHA1; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00D8_01D5D1DE.FA15DF60" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: e0d411fe-0f4e-4771-f02f-08d7a0200857 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 23 Jan 2020 16:19:33.4223 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: tebfELwuax/xw6nFr2/AWpy9GNAweGrkoyw4t2VuR6rMtPdErNsIjuqRyVe4BkTk X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR11MB3766 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.14, xch-aln-004.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-8.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Composite Evidence X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 16:19:41 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_00D8_01D5D1DE.FA15DF60 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_00D9_01D5D1DE.FA15DF60" ------=_NextPart_001_00D9_01D5D1DE.FA15DF60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Frank, =20 From: Xialiang, January 23, 2020 2:53 AM Hi, I agree with Ned=E2=80=99s categorization of two, and we need to have = different terms for them. =20 I agree that we need different terms for different types of = evidence. And added a third: relayed evidence. =20 I suspect it would be better to separate those from the "composite" = concept. It will be interesting to get others' thoughts on this. =20 I am also wondering the reason why you want to receive a time series = snapshots of the same component?=20 =20 A Verifier can make an "ok-validated" evaluation on a particular = TPM Quote, and send it back to the Attester. Subsequently, a Relying = Party can get a Quote from the same TPM to establish what are current, = fresh measurements. If both Quotes have the same PCR values, then the = current state is in an "ok-validated" state. This minimizes Verifier = transactions, and gives quick/fresh response to the Relying Party. =20 If more documentation on this is interesting, I could put together = something for the WG. =20 If you want to identify the change of a component=E2=80=99s = trustworthiness during a period, maybe a better way is through the = on-change evidence notification. =20 I initially thought on-change would be sufficient. However there = is quite a bit of volatile evidence which needs to be transmitted only = under a certain condition. For example, *only* when a specific PCR = changes, send the full signed TPM quote as well as the log entries for = that PCR. It would be unaffordable/unsupportable to send all PCR = quotes on-change as things like nonces/clock counters are continuously = updating. =20 In a perfect world, this conditional push requirement would be a good = match to your draft-bryskin-netconf-automation-yang. However since this = draft isn't close to being picked up by the NETCONF WG yet, we can't = depend on that functionality. =20 If we are building from today's available RFCs, I think defining a new = "attestation" event stream based on RFC-8639 Subscription to YANG = Notifications will be a more stable starting point than starting with = RFC-8641 for on-change YANG datastore subscription.=20 =20 Eric =20 B.R. Frank =20 =20 =20 This e-mail and its attachments contain confidential information from = HUAWEI, which is intended only for the person or entity whose address is = listed above. Any use of the information contained herein in any way = (including, but not limited to, total or partial disclosure, = reproduction, or dissemination) by persons other than the intended = recipient(s) is prohibited. If you receive this e-mail in error, please = notify the sender by phone or email immediately and delete it! =20 =E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: RATS [ = mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.org] =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 Smith, Ned =E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=8823=E6=97=A5 = 9:54 =E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Eric Voit (evoit) < = evoit@cisco.com>; Birkholz, Henk < = = henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>; Michael Richardson < = mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>; Dave Thaler < = dthaler@microsoft.com> =E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: rats@ietf.org =E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: Re: [Rats] Composite Evidence =20 Eric, I think there are two types of =E2=80=9Ccomposite=E2=80=9D things that = could be considered (i) decompositions of hardware and software such as = a motherboard and the sub-components that could be plugged into it and = (ii) time series snapshots of the same component.=20 =20 You seem to be asserting (ii) where a time series snapshot of the same = thing could be considered =E2=80=9Ccomposite evidence=E2=80=9D.=20 =20 I think both cases are valid, but maybe it makes sense to use different = terms for each as they seem to have distinct properties. (e.g. evidence = having multiple entries of a component with the same name under (i) = implies multiple instances of the same type of device =E2=80=93 such as = two NIC cards. Whereas under (ii) multiple entries implies there is one = instance of the NIC sampled over a time interval.=20 =20 -Ned =20 From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" < evoit@cisco.com> Date: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 at 4:04 PM To: Henk Berkholz < = henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, Michael Richardson < = mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, Dave Thaler < = dthaler@microsoft.com>, "Smith, Ned" < = ned.smith@intel.com> Cc: " rats@ietf.org" < = rats@ietf.org> Subject: Composite Evidence =20 Henk, Dave, Michael, Ned, =20 I promised you a definition for Composite Evidence. You can see my = proposed definition directly the text below, but I am not willing yet to = place it in a Pull Request. I thought an email thread might be helpful = first. =20 Anyway my strawman definition for Composite Evidence is: Evidence which = includes multiple sub-elements of evidence, more than one of which can = be computationally verified to have been generated by a specific = Attester Subcomponent or Verifier. =20 I built this definition considering the passport model, which looks like = it will often needs to use composite evidence. As an example of why I = believe this, see the use case below. =20 .--------------. =20 | Verifier A | '--------------' =20 ^ [2] =20 | Verifier A signed Attestation Results @time(x) ( evidence( | determination, hash(TpmQuote@time(x))) =20 TpmQuote | =20 @time(x)) | =20 [1] V =20 .-------------. .---------------. | Attester |<------nonce @time(y)---[3]| Verifier B | | .-----. | | / | | | Tpm | |[4]-composite evidence ( ->| Relying Party | | '-----' | TpmQuote@time(y), '---------------' '-------------' TpmQuote@time(x), =20 Verifier A signed Attestation Results @time(x) = ) =20 =20 =20 In the example above, evidence at time x is generated and signed within = a TPM. This would *not* be composite evidence. This evidence would be = evaluated by Verifier A, signed, and returned as Attestation Results to = the Attester. A subsequent request from a Relying Party at time y = could pull three independently signed elements of evidence from the = Attester. These three would comprise the composite evidence which when = taken together would allow Verifier B / Relying Party to evaluate the = current trustworthiness of the Attester. =20 Does this definition meet your needs? =20 Thanks, Eric ------=_NextPart_001_00D9_01D5D1DE.FA15DF60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi = Frank,

 

From: Xialiang, January 23, 2020 2:53 = AM

Hi,

I = agree with Ned=E2=80=99s categorization of two, and we need to have = different terms for them.

 

<eric> = I agree that we need different = terms for different types of evidence.=C2=A0 And added a third: relayed = evidence.

 

I suspect it would be = better to separate those from the "composite" concept.=C2=A0 = It will be interesting to get others' thoughts on = this.

=  

I am = also wondering the reason why you want to receive a time series = snapshots of the same component?

=  

<eric> A = Verifier can make an "ok-validated" evaluation on a particular = TPM Quote, and send it back to the Attester.=C2=A0 Subsequently, a = Relying Party can get a Quote from the same TPM to establish what are = current, fresh measurements.=C2=A0=C2=A0 If both Quotes have the same = PCR values, then the current state is in an "ok-validated" = state.=C2=A0 This minimizes Verifier transactions, and gives quick/fresh = response to the Relying Party.

 

If more = documentation on this is interesting, I could put together something for = the WG.

=  

If = you want to identify the change of a component=E2=80=99s trustworthiness = during a period, maybe a better way is through the on-change evidence = notification.

 

<eric> I = initially thought on-change would be sufficient.=C2=A0 However there is = quite a bit of volatile evidence which needs to be transmitted only = under a certain condition.=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0For example, *only* when a = specific PCR changes, send the full signed TPM quote as well as the log = entries for that PCR.=C2=A0=C2=A0 It would be unaffordable/unsupportable = to send all PCR quotes on-change as things like nonces/clock counters = are continuously updating.

 

In a perfect = world, this conditional push requirement would be a good match to your = draft-bryskin-netconf-automation-yang.=C2=A0 However since this draft = isn't close to being picked up by the NETCONF WG yet, we can't depend on = that functionality.

 

If we are building = from today's available RFCs, I think defining a new = "attestation" event stream based on RFC-8639 Subscription to = YANG Notifications will be a more stable starting point than starting = with RFC-8641 for on-change YANG datastore subscription. =

 

Eric

=  

B.R.<= o:p>

Frank=

=  

 

 

This e-mail and its attachments contain = confidential information from HUAWEI, which is intended only for the = person or entity whose address is listed above. Any use of the = information contained herein in any way (including, but not limited to, = total or partial disclosure, reproduction, or dissemination) by persons = other than the intended recipient(s) is prohibited. If you receive this = e-mail in error, please notify the sender by phone or email immediately = and delete it!

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=  

=E5=8F=91=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA= : RATS [mailto:rats-bounces@ietf.or= g] =E4=BB=A3=E8=A1=A8 Smith, Ned
=E5=8F=91=E9=80=81=E6=97=B6=E9=97=B4: 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=8823=E6=97=A5 9:54
=E6=94=B6=E4=BB=B6=E4=BA=BA: Eric Voit (evoit) = <evoit@cisco.com<= span style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Microsoft = YaHei",sans-serif;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN'>>; Birkholz, Henk = <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofe= r.de>; Michael Richardson = <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>; Dave Thaler = <dthaler@microsoft.com>
=E6=8A=84=E9=80=81: rats@ietf.org
=E4=B8=BB=E9=A2=98: Re: [Rats] Composite = Evidence

 

Eric,

I think there are = two types of =E2=80=9Ccomposite=E2=80=9D things that could be considered = (i) decompositions of hardware and software such as a motherboard and = the sub-components that could be plugged into it and (ii) time series = snapshots of the same component.

 

You seem to be = asserting (ii) where a time series snapshot of the same thing could be = considered =E2=80=9Ccomposite evidence=E2=80=9D. =

 

I think both cases = are valid, but maybe it makes sense to use different terms for each as = they seem to have distinct properties. (e.g. evidence having multiple = entries of a component with the same name  under (i) implies = multiple instances of the same type of device =E2=80=93 such as two NIC = cards. Whereas under (ii) multiple entries implies there is one instance = of the NIC sampled over a time interval.

 

-Ned

 

From: "Eric Voit = (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
Date: = Wednesday, January 22, 2020 at 4:04 PM
To: Henk Berkholz = <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>, = Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, Dave Thaler = <dthaler@microsoft.com>, "Smith, = Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
Cc: = "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Subject: = Composite Evidence

 

Henk,  &n= bsp;      Dave,

Michael,  = ;  Ned,

 

I promised you a = definition for Composite Evidence.  You can see my proposed = definition directly the text below, but I am not willing yet to place it = in a Pull Request. I thought an email thread might be helpful = first.

 

Anyway my strawman = definition for Composite Evidence is:  Evidence which includes multiple sub-elements of = evidence, more than one of which can be computationally verified to have = been generated by a specific Attester Subcomponent or = Verifier.

 

I built this = definition considering the passport model, which looks like it will = often needs to use composite evidence.  As an example of why I = believe this, see the use case below.

 

    = .--------------.         &nb= sp;  

    |&nb= sp; Verifier A  |

    = '--------------'    

    &nbs= p;   ^     = [2]           =

    &nbs= p;   |     Verifier A signed = Attestation Results @time(x) (

    = evidence(  |  determination, hash(TpmQuote@time(x)))  =

    TpmQ= uote   = |            =      

    @tim= e(x))  = |            =             =

    &nbs= p;  [1]     = V            =             =

    &nbs= p;.-------------.         &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;     .---------------.

     = |  Attester   |<------nonce @time(y)---[3]|  = Verifier B   |

     = |    .-----.  = |            =             &= nbsp;  |       = /       |

     = |    | Tpm |  |[4]-composite evidence ( ->| = Relying Party |

     = |    '-----'  |      = TpmQuote@time(y),    '---------------'

     = '-------------'      TpmQuote@time(x),  =

    &nbs= p;            = ;         Verifier A signed = Attestation Results @time(x) = )            =          

 

 

In the example = above, evidence at time x is generated and signed within a TPM.  = This would *not* be composite evidence.   This evidence would = be evaluated by Verifier A, signed, and returned as Attestation Results = to the Attester.   A subsequent request from a Relying Party = at time y could pull three independently signed elements of evidence = from the Attester.  These three would comprise the composite = evidence which when taken together would allow Verifier B / Relying = Party to evaluate the current trustworthiness of the = Attester.

 = ;

Does this = definition meet your needs?

 

Thanks,

Eric

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(52.135.226.32) by BYAPR11MB3733.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (20.178.238.82) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2665.20; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 16:47:08 +0000 Received: from BYAPR11MB2536.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::20d1:96f3:bde9:17e5]) by BYAPR11MB2536.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::20d1:96f3:bde9:17e5%5]) with mapi id 15.20.2665.017; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 16:47:08 +0000 From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" To: Michael Richardson , "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Rats] Composite Evidence Thread-Index: AdXRgB49sEcLGXWTRbyFhaWoEjRAwwAFlsyAABye0OA= Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 16:47:08 +0000 Message-ID: References: <25403.1579747229@localhost> In-Reply-To: <25403.1579747229@localhost> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=evoit@cisco.com; x-originating-ip: [173.38.117.86] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email 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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 23 Jan 2020 16:47:08.7473 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: NduZmYFr+BdnaK7ceHxZI30hnvcaN9D/fnLiYRwLS/k/SFupiicq/SUwRkiXuOck X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR11MB3733 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.36.7.17, xch-aln-007.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: alln-core-11.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Composite Evidence X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 16:47:15 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_00FA_01D5D1E2.B0AED6C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Michael, > From: Michael Richardson, January 22, 2020 9:40 PM > > Eric Voit (evoit) wrote: > > I promised you a definition for Composite Evidence. You can see my > proposed > > definition directly the text below, but I am not willing yet to place > > it in a > > Pull Request. I thought an email thread might be helpful first. > > First, I found the diagram confusing, because I think you rotated our > previous diagram 90 degress clockwise. As I was adopting the passport model, I used the Architecture Document Figure 4 in Section 5.1 as a base. > The Verifier A, was in my mind, towards me (in the third dimension) out, > "above" the "Internal Verifier", which we asked to have renamed "Claims > Collector" > (Screw the monochrome SVG debate... lets go VRML) I thought about trying SVG. But I am not brave enough with the tooling to be an early IETF adopter :-). > Second, I found the extra hash(),@time, stuff distracting, as it went into a > level of detail that just confused me. I need to put together a submission which defines the elements diagram. These details are important for exposing why I see the intersections of evidence types and composite evidence being quite important. Some of these reasons are exposed in my reply to Dave & Ned which dives into three types of evidence (i), (ii), & (iii). > > Anyway my strawman definition for Composite Evidence is: Evidence > which > > includes multiple sub-elements of evidence, more than one of which can > be > > computationally verified to have been generated by a specific Attester > > Subcomponent or Verifier. > > I am not sure what "computationally" verified means. Good point, we probably can remove "computationally". > Give an example of something that would not fall into that category. > Maybe you are trying to abstract "has a signature" to things that can be > verified without a asymmetric digital signature. (KerbV Ticket?) It is true I am trying to abstract away from "has a signature". I didn't want to exclude things like the possibility that Verifier B to go back to Verifier A if a trust relationship hasn't been established between them yet. > I think that the key thing that we needed to be able to say is that Composite > Evidence is not: > 1) struct evidence_claims foo[]; > -or- > 2) struct attestation_results foo[]; > > but rather: > union composite_evidence { > struct evidence_claims ec; > struct attestation_results ar; > } foo[]; I very much agree with your code above. And the definition needs to reflect this. The question which Ned & Dave open up is whether types of evidence_claims need to be exposed in your union composite_evidence. This directly hits my question of whether the definition of composite evidence needs to intersect the definition of evidence types (i), (ii), & (iii). The more I think about this in the context of your code above, the more I am hoping to keep the two concepts orthogonal. Eric > were I more hip, I'd learn to write this in CDDL. > > -- > ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh networks [ > ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | IoT architect [ > ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails [ > > > -- > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works > -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- > > ------=_NextPart_000_00FA_01D5D1E2.B0AED6C0 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIMWTCCA0Mw ggIroAMCAQICEF/4eygrVNyNQqMVtWjJrf8wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwNTEWMBQGA1UEChMNQ2lz Y28gU3lzdGVtczEbMBkGA1UEAxMSQ2lzY28gUm9vdCBDQSAyMDQ4MB4XDTA0MDUxNDIwMTcxMloX DTI5MDUxNDIwMjU0MlowNTEWMBQGA1UEChMNQ2lzY28gU3lzdGVtczEbMBkGA1UEAxMSQ2lzY28g Um9vdCBDQSAyMDQ4MIIBIDANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ0AMIIBCAKCAQEAsJq5q6evCnen4nG2 tGZilHiIR8ZiVYRAMr/Aqy6lHHHWvG57qKq6btIViEhFnaL8g9DMuYzgJmhwSnjfIRee9GEFyRXI 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X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52E071209D6 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 11:05:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.196 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.196 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5LYcln0kEBL7 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 11:05:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mga02.intel.com (mga02.intel.com [134.134.136.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 35639120818 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 11:05:51 -0800 (PST) X-Amp-Result: SKIPPED(no attachment in message) X-Amp-File-Uploaded: False Received: from fmsmga005.fm.intel.com ([10.253.24.32]) by orsmga101.jf.intel.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 23 Jan 2020 11:04:08 -0800 X-ExtLoop1: 1 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.70,354,1574150400"; d="scan'208,217";a="426376479" Received: from orsmsx107.amr.corp.intel.com ([10.22.240.5]) by fmsmga005.fm.intel.com with ESMTP; 23 Jan 2020 11:04:07 -0800 Received: from orsmsx125.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.240.125) by ORSMSX107.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.240.5) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.439.0; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 11:04:07 -0800 Received: from orsmsx109.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.11.6]) by ORSMSX125.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.3.145]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 11:04:07 -0800 From: "Smith, Ned" To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" , Dave Thaler , "Birkholz, Henk" , Michael Richardson CC: "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Rats] Composite Evidence Thread-Index: AQHV0h/jsEcLGXWTRbyFhaWoEjRAww== Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 19:04:07 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.21.0.200113 msip_labels: MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Enabled=True; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_SiteId=72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Owner=dthaler@ntdev.microsoft.com; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_SetDate=2020-01-23T02:04:41.5804837Z; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Name=General; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Application=Microsoft Azure Information Protection; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_ActionId=f78ab453-bbe8-4b62-9d54-dd2752ed39ae; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Extended_MSFT_Method=Automatic x-originating-ip: [10.254.187.28] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 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rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA7D8120B14 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 11:43:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TDwjWb-VkYYC for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 11:43:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mga03.intel.com (mga03.intel.com [134.134.136.65]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 68A11120AF8 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 11:43:14 -0800 (PST) X-Amp-Result: SKIPPED(no attachment in message) X-Amp-File-Uploaded: False Received: from fmsmga006.fm.intel.com ([10.253.24.20]) by orsmga103.jf.intel.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 23 Jan 2020 11:43:12 -0800 X-ExtLoop1: 1 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.70,354,1574150400"; d="scan'208";a="428077441" Received: from orsmsx105.amr.corp.intel.com ([10.22.225.132]) by fmsmga006.fm.intel.com with ESMTP; 23 Jan 2020 11:43:12 -0800 Received: from orsmsx123.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.240.116) by ORSMSX105.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.225.132) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.439.0; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 11:43:12 -0800 Received: from orsmsx109.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.11.6]) by ORSMSX123.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.1.219]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 11:43:11 -0800 From: "Smith, Ned" To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" , Michael Richardson , "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Rats] Composite Evidence Thread-Index: AdXRgB49sEcLGXWTRbyFhaWoEjRAwwAWWlWAAB2RpAD//6sSAA== Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 19:43:10 +0000 Message-ID: <85492C6F-E854-448F-9507-BBAC25455392@intel.com> 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23 12:26:51 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 217F0120C10 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 12:26:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EyGo3NPX-8rZ for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 12:26:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.19]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 00F82120970 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 12:26:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 998F538982 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 15:26:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0332AC50 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 15:26:47 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: "rats\@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: References: <25403.1579747229@localhost> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 25.1.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Composite Evidence X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 20:26:50 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Eric Voit (evoit) wrote: >> First, I found the diagram confusing, because I think you rotated our >> previous diagram 90 degress clockwise. > As I was adopting the passport model, I used the Architecture Document > Figure 4 in Section 5.1 as a base. Yes, I knew that, but I think we need to meld it into the diagram we have, so we need to find a way to allow people's visual cortex to map things visually. >> Second, I found the extra hash(),@time, stuff distracting, as it went into > a >> level of detail that just confused me. > I need to put together a submission which defines the elements diagram. > These details are important for exposing why I see the intersections of > evidence types and composite evidence being quite important. Some of these > reasons are exposed in my reply to Dave & Ned which dives into three types > of evidence (i), (ii), & (iii). I'm happy if you have "ev(i)","ev(ii)", etc. and explain that in the text. >> Give an example of something that would not fall into that category. >> Maybe you are trying to abstract "has a signature" to things that can be >> verified without a asymmetric digital signature. (KerbV Ticket?) > It is true I am trying to abstract away from "has a signature". I didn't > want to exclude things like the possibility that Verifier B to go back to > Verifier A if a trust relationship hasn't been established between them yet. How about "signature (or equivalent)" >> I think that the key thing that we needed to be able to say is that > Composite >> Evidence is not: >> 1) struct evidence_claims foo[]; >> -or- >> 2) struct attestation_results foo[]; >> >> but rather: >> union composite_evidence { >> struct evidence_claims ec; >> struct attestation_results ar; >> } foo[]; > I very much agree with your code above. And the definition needs to reflect > this. The question which Ned & Dave open up is whether types of > evidence_claims need to be exposed in your union composite_evidence. Of course "struct evidence_claims" is a structure, I expect it to often be an EAT. So I'm not sure I understand the debate. > directly hits my question of whether the definition of composite evidence > needs to intersect the definition of evidence types (i), (ii), & (iii). > The more I think about this in the context of your code above, the more I am > hoping to keep the two concepts orthogonal. Is the question about how this union is distinguished? -- ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh networks [ ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | IoT architect [ ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails [ -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl4qAYYACgkQgItw+93Q 3WXDNwf/bNK/lznEuzTRSYfYgNaUbJ6CT2Al5AYqfCT0Tw5PR4CE/+4rLzeVdu5P /xLf/VJfQS1Hvcu03QXN5QWfuAsIn6iaM1RCOX15PXvVClWIjlUJ5Fmat5SExDMa 08H0DNPSRoyVZO6kwQV+vLa1gJ92cD0M+riF33fKOdLFRTGQt9CD57lzWD93ls8b b56XyIzahxDxr3oh96pXQQHh2GlVwQh6AOVwMhJnZT1nsJvh/JUWoqgFgj+4IeB+ L8lu/pfXysIQxUUYWz0/UcXgfX/soSuw5e2nRBF4qSD9OjfcHWHRF7MMlSplSM+r e7cFFFQxcJBP6ocjwJZFUNdhcM/U0g== =KrSz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Thu Jan 23 12:36:03 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA651120860 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 12:36:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NEdB7OhoWxpe for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 12:35:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E6C21120823 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 12:35:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A15338982 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 15:35:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFA84C50 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 15:35:57 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: "rats\@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: <85492C6F-E854-448F-9507-BBAC25455392@intel.com> References: <25403.1579747229@localhost> <85492C6F-E854-448F-9507-BBAC25455392@intel.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 25.1.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Composite Evidence X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 20:36:01 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Smith, Ned wrote: > The semantics of 'union composite evidence' (below) seems to suggest > that the local Verifier that produced 'ar' is itself an attestable > claim. The Attester asserts that the Attestation Results from a local > Verifier are trustworthy and that they originated from a sub-component > of its Target environment. Yes. As explained by Eric in his diagram, the "ar" results might not be produced locally, they may be the result of a trip to a different (remote) verifier. Or as you suggest, they may be produced within some TEE, for which there are evidence claims about why it's trust worthy. I think that this all maps to what I understand about TEEP actually. > Another way to think about it is the Attesting environment knows that > the Target environment includes a Verifier and wants to assert that the > Verifier has trustworthiness properties - possibly by returning its > SWID tag value. The Remote Verifier can then evaluate the > trustworthiness of the SWID tag. Sure, that is a specific way. I think that the Chassis+Line Card situation also can work as an example. > Based on that, if the Remote Verifier trusts the Local Verifier then > the local Attestation Results are not claims asserted by the Attesting > environment, but claims asserted by the Local Verifier. The only claim > that seems to make sense from the Attesting environment's perspective > is that an 'ar' value from its Target was forwarded to a Remote > Verifier. Signing the local Verifier's ar payload just asserts that the > forwarding action has taken place. This is an argument for defining an > 'Attestation Results forwarded' claim. Maybe this isn't that valuable > in terms of a trustworthiness claim? [%] I think you are saying that rather than documenting that we forward a union of evidence and attestation results, that we document that will create a kind of evidence, which includes attestation results? > If however the Attesting environment wanted to make a stronger > trustworthiness assertion it would have some other way to collect > Evidence about the Targeted sub-components (who must already have their > own Attesting environments). But if the Attesting environment could do > this then it must be the same environment as the sub-components' > Attesting environments. In which case, there is no need for a local > Verifier - it is just complexity for complexity's sake. I think that I agree. It could be that there are competitive or regulatory reasons why the Lead Attester does not wish to reveal the types of the line cards attached. Consider an automobile (or passenger rail car, or human-rated Rocket) that needs to attest that it has four good tires (which passed their 20,000km inspection), but which does not wish to reveal which manufacturer provided those tires. Passing on evidence directly would be a problem. > The case of a local Verifier working with a remote Verifier is > semantically the same as a Remote Verifier working with another Remote > Verifier. So, I don't see why Evidence and Attestation Results formats > need to do anything special - like 'union composite evidence'. It just > says that Verifier1 may evaluate Evidence about Verifier2 before > trusting Attestation Results from Verifier2. Thus my query up at [%]. --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl4qA60ACgkQgItw+93Q 3WUjkQf9G4F7uM9TnAQT45BM90kloUhd66xtlFcg9zLJtJ3wGKA165O9e+MM4lKZ NSRFmh412gybRCrxv/j6LAkwKPXQNqwZGKcekw6wAuBBelFj8y2p0h+NF3jHOX5B Dg5bSU7cEZhRO8aE1VTHQjcN+iHGM+IxbFRhVGHdlJ25w0CLuIRRRofdx55jWeT2 lMeK2klFDUsejD2H5f9SClytJfDWhmTC76CjRk4GpqBZ/PwODbPQ5R13TjFdB+fk VHHnKObTJt65uPZ8fXOC7+QYPKcUbmr9Fgqy/l8EjMAf5ng5XNfD1VNTBWTBE+Ew nRLL7NgPoxaEWtn0g65EOlIV8vQLLg== =et1k -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Thu Jan 23 12:57:11 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92F96120823 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 12:57:09 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=SHA1; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00CF_01D5D203.260A9420" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: bc7f5cdb-83e1-48fe-de46-08d7a046c9f9 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 23 Jan 2020 20:56:59.0596 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: n2ZdOu6qJqeYOcMu8t4cDG3j6sJEnSETCVFUubkqJIHx9okU8orjJFvGbTwZHZG2 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR11MB3046 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.14, xch-rcd-004.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-12.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Composite Evidence X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 20:57:10 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_00CF_01D5D203.260A9420 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_00D0_01D5D203.260A9420" ------=_NextPart_001_00D0_01D5D203.260A9420 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ned, =20 From: Smith, Ned, January 23, 2020 2:04 PM Eric, Can you say more about relayed evidence in terms of how it was obtained = and how it is protected as it is =E2=80=98relayed=E2=80=99? =20 The Passport and Background Check models incorporate = =E2=80=98relaying=E2=80=99 of Evidence, but don=E2=80=99t try to = describe the Evidence as =E2=80=98relayed evidence=E2=80=99.=20 =20 While it isn't 100% clear in the current terminology, I see = "Attestation Results" as a special type of evidence. This is evidence = where any trustworthiness claims made of the Attester can be accepted = without requiring further evaluation. =20 The Relying Party needs a way to validate the freshness of whatever = comes from the Verifier. This can be done a number of ways. For = example in my diagram below, the TPM2's timeticks counters can be = included in [1] and [4]. As the TPM has predictable incrementing of = these counters. The deltas between the timeticks counters can be = trusted, even though both claims were generated from within an Attester = Component. =20 A related question then is whether the Attestation Results in [2] = actually match to the TpmQuote from [1]. The Relying party can = establish this based on a hash within [2] proving its relation to [1]. =20 In the context of Attesting Environment Collecting Evidence from a = Target environment the way it is collected seems to determine whether it = would be classified as (i), (ii) or (iii). (Note: there is the category = of simple evidence that is just a set of atomic claims =E2=80=93 no need = to drill deeper into the foo[] data structure =E2=80=93 and not = represented by (i), (ii) or (iii) I agree with other type of evidence/claims relating to the = attester in general, and these not needing to be provably associated = with any specific sub-component. This is one of the reasons I am = hoping we turn this discussion towards a decomposed set of evidence = types, rather than having individual terms for different combinations of = composite evidence. )=20 =20 If (i) means the target environment consists of a decomposition of = things, then there is expected to be a nesting of Evidence that = parallels the decomposition. Nesting is certainly possible. So I am fine with this statement. = To match this to my example below, step [4] assembles a composition of = this evidence, rather than doing any nesting. Although perhaps nesting = *could* be claimed the Attestation Results in [2] contains a hash of = [1]. Is this nesting? Is this Layering? I don't know. =20 If (i) also means the target environment consists of a decomposition of = things and where there is a =E2=80=98local verifier=E2=80=99 that = evaluates Evidence and produces an Attestation Result in the place where = the decomposition would otherwise expect nested Evidence then this seems = to overload (i) somewhat. This is the exact reason why I got caught up attempting a = definition of "Layering". I am not sure what constraints can a 'local = verifier' trustworthy, nor when a 'networked verifier' can provide = validation into a TCG DICE type Layer. These are not questions I have = looked at closely. =20 =20 However, it could be that one of these is what you mean by (iii)? This is one type of thing covered in (iii). The generalization = of what I intended from (iii) was evidence provided by an Attester which = is provably not generated within the Attester. For example, a recent = Time quote from a Time Stamp Authority like in draft-birkholz-rats-tuda = could also be included in what is sent to a Verifier/Relying Party. =20 Eric =20 -Ned =20 From: RATS > on = behalf of "Eric Voit (evoit)" = > Date: Thursday, January 23, 2020 at 7:40 AM To: Dave Thaler >, = "Smith, Ned" >, Henk = Berkholz >, Michael Richardson = > Cc: "rats@ietf.org " > Subject: Re: [Rats] Composite Evidence =20 Hi Ned, Hi Dave, =20 I agree with Ned's framing of (i) and (ii). These two are embedded in = my passport example below. We also have (iii): evidence which is = relayed from outside the Attester. I think (iii) needs to be broken out = as an evidence type because signed information from the Verifier should = be trusted differently from other evidence the Attester. =20 That makes: (i) component evidence (ii) time-series evidence (iii) relayed evidence =20 Beyond (i), (ii), & (iii), do we need term combinations of (i), (ii), & = (iii) with the word "composite"? Hopefully we wouldn't need to define = six terms for each combination of these three variants. Otherwise my = example might be called "component, time-series, relayed composite = evidence". And that is a mouthful. =20 Eric =20 =20 From: Dave Thaler, January 22, 2020 9:05 PM Agree with Ned that we should keep composite devices separate from time = series snapshots of the same component in terms of concepts. =20 From: Smith, Ned < ned.smith@intel.com>=20 Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 5:54 PM To: Eric Voit (evoit) < evoit@cisco.com>; = Birkholz, Henk < = henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>; Michael Richardson < = mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>; Dave Thaler < = dthaler@microsoft.com> Cc: rats@ietf.org Subject: Re: Composite Evidence =20 Eric, I think there are two types of =E2=80=9Ccomposite=E2=80=9D things that = could be considered (i) decompositions of hardware and software such as = a motherboard and the sub-components that could be plugged into it and = (ii) time series snapshots of the same component.=20 =20 You seem to be asserting (ii) where a time series snapshot of the same = thing could be considered =E2=80=9Ccomposite evidence=E2=80=9D.=20 =20 I think both cases are valid, but maybe it makes sense to use different = terms for each as they seem to have distinct properties. (e.g. evidence = having multiple entries of a component with the same name under (i) = implies multiple instances of the same type of device =E2=80=93 such as = two NIC cards. Whereas under (ii) multiple entries implies there is one = instance of the NIC sampled over a time interval.=20 =20 -Ned =20 From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" > Date: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 at 4:04 PM To: Henk Berkholz >, Michael Richardson = >, Dave Thaler = >, "Smith, Ned" = > Cc: "rats@ietf.org " > Subject: Composite Evidence =20 Henk, Dave, Michael, Ned, =20 I promised you a definition for Composite Evidence. You can see my = proposed definition directly the text below, but I am not willing yet to = place it in a Pull Request. I thought an email thread might be helpful = first. =20 Anyway my strawman definition for Composite Evidence is: Evidence which = includes multiple sub-elements of evidence, more than one of which can = be computationally verified to have been generated by a specific = Attester Subcomponent or Verifier. =20 I built this definition considering the passport model, which looks like = it will often needs to use composite evidence. As an example of why I = believe this, see the use case below. =20 .--------------. =20 | Verifier A | '--------------' =20 ^ [2] =20 | Verifier A signed Attestation Results @time(x) ( evidence( | determination, hash(TpmQuote@time(x))) =20 TpmQuote | =20 @time(x)) | =20 [1] V =20 .-------------. .---------------. | Attester |<------nonce @time(y)---[3]| Verifier B | | .-----. | | / | | | Tpm | |[4]-composite evidence ( ->| Relying Party | | '-----' | TpmQuote@time(y), '---------------' '-------------' TpmQuote@time(x), =20 Verifier A signed Attestation Results @time(x) = ) =20 =20 =20 In the example above, evidence at time x is generated and signed within = a TPM. This would *not* be composite evidence. This evidence would be = evaluated by Verifier A, signed, and returned as Attestation Results to = the Attester. A subsequent request from a Relying Party at time y = could pull three independently signed elements of evidence from the = Attester. These three would comprise the composite evidence which when = taken together would allow Verifier B / Relying Party to evaluate the = current trustworthiness of the Attester. =20 Does this definition meet your needs? =20 Thanks, Eric ------=_NextPart_001_00D0_01D5D203.260A9420 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi = Ned,

 

From: Smith, Ned, January 23, 2020 2:04 = PM

Eric,

Can you say more = about relayed evidence in terms of how it was obtained and how it is = protected as it is =E2=80=98relayed=E2=80=99?

 

The Passport and = Background Check models incorporate =E2=80=98relaying=E2=80=99 of = Evidence, but don=E2=80=99t try to describe the Evidence as = =E2=80=98relayed evidence=E2=80=99.

 

<eric> While it isn't = 100% clear in the current terminology, I see "Attestation = Results" =C2=A0as a special type of evidence. This is evidence = where any trustworthiness claims made of the Attester can be accepted = without requiring further evaluation.

 

The = Relying Party needs a way to validate the freshness of whatever comes = from the Verifier.=C2=A0 =C2=A0This can be done a number of ways.=C2=A0 = =C2=A0For example in my diagram below, the TPM2's timeticks counters can = be included in [1] and [4].=C2=A0 As the TPM has predictable = incrementing of these counters.=C2=A0 The deltas between the timeticks = counters can be trusted, even though both claims were generated from = within an Attester Component.

 

A = related question then is whether the Attestation Results in [2] actually = match to the TpmQuote from [1].=C2=A0 The Relying party can establish = this based on a hash within [2] proving its relation to = [1].

 

In the context of = Attesting Environment Collecting Evidence from a Target environment the = way it is collected seems to determine whether it would be classified as = (i), (ii) or (iii). (Note: there is the category of simple evidence that = is just a set of atomic claims =E2=80=93 no need to drill deeper into = the foo[] data structure =E2=80=93 and not represented by (i), (ii) or = (iii)

<eric> I agree with other = type of evidence/claims relating to the attester in general, and these = not needing to be provably associated with any specific = sub-component.=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 This is one of the reasons I am hoping = we turn this discussion towards a decomposed set of evidence types, = rather than having individual terms for different combinations of = composite evidence.

)

 

If (i) means the = target environment consists of a decomposition of things, then there is = expected to be a nesting of Evidence that parallels the = decomposition.

<eric> Nesting is = certainly possible. So I am fine with this statement.=C2=A0 To match = this to my example below, step [4] assembles a composition of this = evidence, rather than doing any nesting.=C2=A0 Although perhaps nesting = *could* be claimed the Attestation Results in [2] contains a hash of = [1].=C2=A0 Is this nesting?=C2=A0 Is this Layering?=C2=A0 I don't = know.

 

If (i) also means the = target environment consists of a decomposition of things and where there = is a =E2=80=98local verifier=E2=80=99 that evaluates Evidence and = produces an Attestation Result in the place where the decomposition = would otherwise expect nested Evidence then this seems to overload (i) = somewhat.

<eric> This is the exact = reason why I got caught up attempting a definition of = "Layering".=C2=A0 I am not sure what constraints can a 'local = verifier' trustworthy, nor when a 'networked verifier' can provide = validation into a TCG DICE type Layer.=C2=A0 These are not questions I = have looked at closely. =C2=A0=C2=A0

=C2=A0

However, it could be = that one of these is what you mean by (iii)?

<eric> This is one type = of thing covered in (iii).=C2=A0 The generalization of what I intended = from (iii) was evidence provided by an Attester which is provably not = generated within the Attester. =C2=A0For example, a recent = Time quote from a Time Stamp Authority like in draft-birkholz-rats-tuda = could also be included in what is sent to a Verifier/Relying = Party.

 

Eric

 

-Ned

 

From: = RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org> on = behalf of "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
Date: = Thursday, January 23, 2020 at 7:40 AM
To: Dave Thaler = <dthaler@microsoft.com>, = "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, Henk = Berkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunho= fer.de>, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
Cc: "rats@ietf.org" = <rats@ietf.org>
Subject: = Re: [Rats] Composite Evidence

 

Hi = Ned,

Hi Dave,

 

I agree with Ned's = framing of (i) and (ii).  These two are embedded in my passport = example below.    We also have (iii): evidence = which is relayed from outside the Attester.  I think (iii) needs to = be broken out as an evidence type because signed information from the = Verifier should be trusted differently from other evidence the = Attester.

 

That = makes:

 (i) component = evidence

(ii) time-series = evidence

(iii) relayed = evidence

 

Beyond (i), (ii), = & (iii), do we need term combinations of (i), (ii), & (iii) with = the word "composite"?  Hopefully we wouldn't need to = define six terms for each combination of these three variants.  = Otherwise my example might be called "component, time-series, = relayed composite evidence".  And that is a = mouthful.

 

Eric

 

 

From: Dave Thaler, January 22, 2020 9:05 = PM

Agree with Ned that we should = keep composite devices separate from time series snapshots of the same = component in terms of concepts.

 

From: Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 22, = 2020 5:54 PM
To: Eric Voit (evoit) <evoit@cisco.com>; Birkholz, Henk <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>; Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>; Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>
Cc: rats@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Composite = Evidence

 

Eric,

I think there are two = types of =E2=80=9Ccomposite=E2=80=9D things that could be considered (i) = decompositions of hardware and software such as a motherboard and the = sub-components that could be plugged into it and (ii) time series = snapshots of the same component.

 

You seem to be = asserting (ii) where a time series snapshot of the same thing could be = considered =E2=80=9Ccomposite evidence=E2=80=9D. =

 

I think both cases = are valid, but maybe it makes sense to use different terms for each as = they seem to have distinct properties. (e.g. evidence having multiple = entries of a component with the same name  under (i) implies = multiple instances of the same type of device =E2=80=93 such as two NIC = cards. Whereas under (ii) multiple entries implies there is one instance = of the NIC sampled over a time interval.

 

-Ned

 

From: = "Eric Voit (evoit)" = <evoit@cisco.com>
Date: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 = at 4:04 PM
To: Henk Berkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunho= fer.de>, Michael Richardson = <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
Cc: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Subject: Composite = Evidence

 

Henk,       = ;  Dave,

Michael,   =  Ned,

 

I promised you a = definition for Composite Evidence.  You can see my proposed = definition directly the text below, but I am not willing yet to place it = in a Pull Request. I thought an email thread might be helpful = first.

 

Anyway my strawman = definition for Composite Evidence is:  Evidence which includes multiple sub-elements of = evidence, more than one of which can be computationally verified to have = been generated by a specific Attester Subcomponent or = Verifier.

 

I built this = definition considering the passport model, which looks like it will = often needs to use composite evidence.  As an example of why I = believe this, see the use case below.

 

    = .--------------.         &nb= sp;  

    |  Verifier A  = |

    = '--------------'    

        ^ =     = [2]           =

        | =     Verifier A signed Attestation Results @time(x) = (

    evidence(  |  = determination, hash(TpmQuote@time(x))) 

    TpmQuote   = |            =      

    @time(x))  = |            =             =

       [1] &nbs= p;   = V            =             =

     .-------------. &nbs= p;            = ;            = .---------------.

     |  Attester   = |<------nonce @time(y)---[3]|  Verifier B   = |

     |    = .-----.  = |            =             &= nbsp;  |       = /       |

     |    | Tpm = |  |[4]-composite evidence ( ->| Relying Party = |

     |    = '-----'  |      = TpmQuote@time(y),    = '---------------'

     = '-------------'      TpmQuote@time(x),  =

         &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;    Verifier A signed Attestation Results = @time(x) = )            =           =

 

 

In the example above, = evidence at time x is generated and signed within a TPM.  This = would *not* be composite evidence.   This evidence would be = evaluated by Verifier A, signed, and returned as Attestation Results to = the Attester.   A subsequent request from a Relying Party at = time y could pull three independently signed elements of evidence from = the Attester.  These three would comprise the composite evidence = which when taken together would allow Verifier B / Relying Party to = evaluate the current trustworthiness of the = Attester.

 

Does this definition = meet your needs?

 

Thanks,

Eric

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(52.135.226.32) by BYAPR11MB2981.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (20.177.224.97) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2644.18; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 21:08:34 +0000 Received: from BYAPR11MB2536.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::20d1:96f3:bde9:17e5]) by BYAPR11MB2536.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::20d1:96f3:bde9:17e5%5]) with mapi id 15.20.2665.017; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 21:08:34 +0000 From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" To: "Smith, Ned" , Michael Richardson , "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Rats] Composite Evidence Thread-Index: AdXRgB49sEcLGXWTRbyFhaWoEjRAwwAFlsyAABye0OAABxixAAACBbaQ Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 21:08:34 +0000 Message-ID: References: <25403.1579747229@localhost> <85492C6F-E854-448F-9507-BBAC25455392@intel.com> In-Reply-To: <85492C6F-E854-448F-9507-BBAC25455392@intel.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: spf=none (sender IP is ) smtp.mailfrom=evoit@cisco.com; 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x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: jChehZnV/+dik3edTm8bhpinW3+sZXiTzfOPfVz9r49OCPvrwfW2GEnE/qBLS8yHBtZr8pMNEuPlt0UC+Bf7ZqJtuFCTZQHKBjx0CJMYGymBTFqM32RbC8hTwS3nCRbf8PtRv0PxY+p/feeBcPEpI2/sUUKT5bdrD0ex6MutKFpVWnlRIV2nocYul9TFGgoL7pgjtxqL17A23ClYeIsx3HEjr0OP098Us/2OGTo3OFUvBIqD8PWcuzd7AyMPMiAQT8akkaUvoRYTgzEAWg0ApvPx3aCRrOjGeNBlAhMnN/bZfTztJanCQJyP0gZp12duvO7Aw0IANkiJMLJMYDV+awCPmAJoguqb1IBWcMhEjKSGHNuxEkGvo6Uz4N3L0oWMiDSm0Dcrv6RXJ3eqK4MUZ4z/TjtPGB9XSc61IdaRSA0/Wq4OhudBRd0ksy+eVFrIVq//aRcqowUm4x2Tu03g+2bRxS7TD9FbJU5KIZ/42+A= x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/x-pkcs7-signature"; micalg=SHA1; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_010E_01D5D207.51279410" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: ca7036b9-1d82-448c-eedd-08d7a0486846 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 23 Jan 2020 21:08:34.1484 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: BiV07VtHtE3e68zSa5dSlZKz1dq4jCN6lH3+fzqDOA0UR0OqmBJ7GgNZ0feVojp/ X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR11MB2981 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.19, xch-rcd-009.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-6.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Composite Evidence X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 21:08:41 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_010E_01D5D207.51279410 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ned, > From: Smith, Ned, January 23, 2020 2:43 PM >=20 > Eric, Michael, > The semantics of 'union composite evidence' (below) seems to suggest = that > the local Verifier that produced 'ar' is itself an attestable claim. = The Attester > asserts that the Attestation Results from a local Verifier are = trustworthy and > that they originated from a sub-component of its Target environment. This is a good example of why Attestation Results should be a subtype of = evidence. > Another way to think about it is the Attesting environment knows that = the > Target environment includes a Verifier and wants to assert that the = Verifier > has trustworthiness properties - possibly by returning its SWID tag = value. The > Remote Verifier can then evaluate the trustworthiness of the SWID tag. Makes sense. > Based on that, if the Remote Verifier trusts the Local Verifier then = the local > Attestation Results are not claims asserted by the Attesting = environment, > but claims asserted by the Local Verifier. The only claim that seems = to make > sense from the Attesting environment's perspective is that an 'ar' = value from > its Target was forwarded to a Remote Verifier. Signing the local = Verifier's ar > payload just asserts that the forwarding action has taken place. This = is an > argument for defining an 'Attestation Results forwarded' claim. Maybe = this > isn't that valuable in terms of a trustworthiness claim? Signing the ar payload (or hashing it, then signing) can prove when the = payload was created. This is what is behind the "TUDA Core concept" = within draft-birkholz-rats-tuda. > If however the Attesting environment wanted to make a stronger > trustworthiness assertion it would have some other way to collect = Evidence > about the Targeted sub-components (who must already have their own > Attesting environments). But if the Attesting environment could do = this then > it must be the same environment as the sub-components' Attesting > environments. In which case, there is no need for a local Verifier - = it is just > complexity for complexity's sake. If by local verifier, you mean something internal to the Attester, then = I agree with you. > The case of a local Verifier working with a remote Verifier is = semantically the > same as a Remote Verifier working with another Remote Verifier. So, I = don't > see why Evidence and Attestation Results formats need to do anything > special - like 'union composite evidence'. It just says that = Verifier1 may > evaluate Evidence about Verifier2 before trusting Attestation Results = from > Verifier2. I don't consider an Attester deciding what composite evidence to = assemble for a "Verifier + Relying Party" as anything special. What = Michael's code says to me that it is important for that Attester to be = able to frame all evidence so that the far end can understand the trust = assumptions and validations needed to draw some conclusion from the = aggregate. Eric=20 =20 > -Ned >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 1/23/20, 8:47 AM, "RATS on behalf of Eric Voit (evoit)" = bounces@ietf.org on behalf of evoit@cisco.com> wrote: >=20 > Hi Michael, >=20 > > From: Michael Richardson, January 22, 2020 9:40 PM > > > > Eric Voit (evoit) wrote: > > > I promised you a definition for Composite Evidence. You = can see my > > proposed > > > definition directly the text below, but I am not willing = yet to > place > > > it in a > > > Pull Request. I thought an email thread might be helpful = first. > > > > First, I found the diagram confusing, because I think you = rotated our > > previous diagram 90 degress clockwise. >=20 > As I was adopting the passport model, I used the Architecture = Document > Figure 4 in Section 5.1 as a base. >=20 > > The Verifier A, was in my mind, towards me (in the third = dimension) out, > > "above" the "Internal Verifier", which we asked to have renamed = "Claims > > Collector" > > (Screw the monochrome SVG debate... lets go VRML) >=20 > I thought about trying SVG. But I am not brave enough with the = tooling to > be an early IETF adopter :-). >=20 > > Second, I found the extra hash(),@time, stuff distracting, as it = went into > a > > level of detail that just confused me. >=20 > I need to put together a submission which defines the elements = diagram. > These details are important for exposing why I see the = intersections of > evidence types and composite evidence being quite important. Some = of > these > reasons are exposed in my reply to Dave & Ned which dives into = three > types > of evidence (i), (ii), & (iii). >=20 > > > Anyway my strawman definition for Composite Evidence is: > Evidence > > which > > > includes multiple sub-elements of evidence, more than one = of which > can > > be > > > computationally verified to have been generated by a = specific > Attester > > > Subcomponent or Verifier. > > > > I am not sure what "computationally" verified means. >=20 > Good point, we probably can remove "computationally". >=20 > > Give an example of something that would not fall into that = category. > > Maybe you are trying to abstract "has a signature" to things = that can be > > verified without a asymmetric digital signature. (KerbV Ticket?) >=20 > It is true I am trying to abstract away from "has a signature". = I didn't > want to exclude things like the possibility that Verifier B to go = back to > Verifier A if a trust relationship hasn't been established between = them > yet. >=20 > > I think that the key thing that we needed to be able to say is = that > Composite > > Evidence is not: > > 1) struct evidence_claims foo[]; > > -or- > > 2) struct attestation_results foo[]; > > > > but rather: > > union composite_evidence { > > struct evidence_claims ec; > > struct attestation_results ar; > > } foo[]; >=20 > I very much agree with your code above. And the definition needs = to > reflect > this. The question which Ned & Dave open up is whether types of > evidence_claims need to be exposed in your union = composite_evidence. > This > directly hits my question of whether the definition of composite = evidence > needs to intersect the definition of evidence types (i), (ii), & = (iii). > The more I think about this in the context of your code above, the = more I > am > hoping to keep the two concepts orthogonal. >=20 > Eric >=20 > > were I more hip, I'd learn to write this in CDDL. > > > > -- > > ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 = mesh > networks [ > > ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | IoT = architect > [ > > ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby = on rails > [ > > > > > > -- > > Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software > Works > > -=3D IPv6 IoT consulting =3D- > > > > >=20 >=20 ------=_NextPart_000_010E_01D5D207.51279410 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; 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autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B02dxRSPxEMn for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 15:11:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mga12.intel.com (mga12.intel.com [192.55.52.136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47C201200BA for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 15:11:31 -0800 (PST) X-Amp-Result: SKIPPED(no attachment in message) X-Amp-File-Uploaded: False Received: from orsmga008.jf.intel.com ([10.7.209.65]) by fmsmga106.fm.intel.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 23 Jan 2020 15:11:27 -0800 X-ExtLoop1: 1 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.70,355,1574150400"; d="scan'208";a="220839052" Received: from orsmsx101.amr.corp.intel.com ([10.22.225.128]) by orsmga008.jf.intel.com with ESMTP; 23 Jan 2020 15:11:27 -0800 Received: from orsmsx109.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.11.6]) by ORSMSX101.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.8.100]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 15:11:27 -0800 From: "Smith, Ned" To: Michael Richardson , "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Rats] Composite Evidence Thread-Index: AdXRgB49sEcLGXWTRbyFhaWoEjRAwwAWWlWAAB2RpAD//6sSAIAAlNyA//+lU4A= Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 23:11:26 +0000 Message-ID: References: <25403.1579747229@localhost> <85492C6F-E854-448F-9507-BBAC25455392@intel.com> <14896.1579811757@localhost> In-Reply-To: <14896.1579811757@localhost> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.21.0.200113 x-originating-ip: [10.24.11.54] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <31A52254A83E9B49B6E60480420AA5E3@intel.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Composite Evidence X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , 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X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F9191200C7 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 15:25:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JxrD5FczIIgP for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 15:25:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mga17.intel.com (mga17.intel.com [192.55.52.151]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0BFAD120041 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 15:25:34 -0800 (PST) X-Amp-Result: SKIPPED(no attachment in message) X-Amp-File-Uploaded: False Received: from fmsmga006.fm.intel.com ([10.253.24.20]) by fmsmga107.fm.intel.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 23 Jan 2020 15:25:34 -0800 X-ExtLoop1: 1 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.70,355,1574150400"; d="scan'208,217";a="428132497" Received: from orsmsx103.amr.corp.intel.com ([10.22.225.130]) by fmsmga006.fm.intel.com with ESMTP; 23 Jan 2020 15:25:34 -0800 Received: from orsmsx158.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.240.20) by ORSMSX103.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.225.130) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.439.0; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 15:25:33 -0800 Received: from orsmsx109.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.11.6]) by ORSMSX158.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.10.113]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 15:25:33 -0800 From: "Smith, Ned" To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" , Dave Thaler , "Birkholz, Henk" , Michael Richardson CC: "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Rats] Composite Evidence Thread-Index: AQHV0h/jsEcLGXWTRbyFhaWoEjRAw6f4ozQQgABBXAA= Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 23:25:32 +0000 Message-ID: <7527C725-950B-4C7F-999A-28CDF6775B00@intel.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.21.0.200113 msip_labels: MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Enabled=True; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_SiteId=72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Owner=dthaler@ntdev.microsoft.com; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_SetDate=2020-01-23T02:04:41.5804837Z; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Name=General; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Application=Microsoft Azure Information Protection; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_ActionId=f78ab453-bbe8-4b62-9d54-dd2752ed39ae; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Extended_MSFT_Method=Automatic x-originating-ip: [10.24.11.54] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_7527C725950B4C7F999A28CDF6775B00intelcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Composite Evidence X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 23:25:38 -0000 --_000_7527C725950B4C7F999A28CDF6775B00intelcom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 RXJpYyBzYWlkIOKAnEhvd2V2ZXIsIGl0IGNvdWxkIGJlIHRoYXQgb25lIG9mIHRoZXNlIGlzIHdo YXQgeW91IG1lYW4gYnkgKGlpaSk/DQo8ZXJpYz4gVGhpcyBpcyBvbmUgdHlwZSBvZiB0aGluZyBj b3ZlcmVkIGluIChpaWkpLiAgVGhlIGdlbmVyYWxpemF0aW9uIG9mIHdoYXQgSSBpbnRlbmRlZCBm cm9tIChpaWkpIHdhcyBldmlkZW5jZSBwcm92aWRlZCBieSBhbiBBdHRlc3RlciB3aGljaCBpcyBw cm92YWJseSBub3QgZ2VuZXJhdGVkIHdpdGhpbiB0aGUgQXR0ZXN0ZXIuICBGb3IgZXhhbXBsZSwg 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24 Jan 2020 00:02:17 +0000 From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" To: "Smith, Ned" , Dave Thaler , "Birkholz, Henk" , Michael Richardson CC: "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Rats] Composite Evidence Thread-Index: AQHV0h/jsEcLGXWTRbyFhaWoEjRAw6f4ozQQgABBXACAAAGQ4A== Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2020 00:02:17 +0000 Message-ID: References: <7527C725-950B-4C7F-999A-28CDF6775B00@intel.com> In-Reply-To: <7527C725-950B-4C7F-999A-28CDF6775B00@intel.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: msip_labels: MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Enabled=True; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_SiteId=72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Owner=dthaler@ntdev.microsoft.com; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_SetDate=2020-01-23T02:04:41.5804837Z; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Name=General; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Application=Microsoft Azure Information 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X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 98712b92-7c58-43f0-5178-08d7a060accc X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 24 Jan 2020 00:02:17.1091 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 5ae1af62-9505-4097-a69a-c1553ef7840e X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: VHfg/WMza9P9uaRnGkHp8SqEln3gGtBKXGpTBmdWxYpIhy0fI9d0lB3xTNJ99xsq X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BYAPR11MB2694 X-OriginatorOrg: cisco.com X-Outbound-SMTP-Client: 173.37.102.19, xch-rcd-009.cisco.com X-Outbound-Node: rcdn-core-10.cisco.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Composite Evidence X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2020 00:02:29 -0000 ------=_NextPart_000_01F2_01D5D21F.7C6A2D50 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_01F3_01D5D21F.7C6A2D50" ------=_NextPart_001_01F3_01D5D21F.7C6A2D50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ned, =20 From: Smith, Ned, January 23, 2020 6:26 PM Eric said =E2=80=9CHowever, it could be that one of these is what you = mean by (iii)? This is one type of thing covered in (iii). The generalization = of what I intended from (iii) was evidence provided by an Attester which = is provably not generated within the Attester. For example, a recent = Time quote from a Time Stamp Authority like in draft-birkholz-rats-tuda = could also be included in what is sent to a Verifier/Relying = Party.=E2=80=9D [nms] The Time Stamp Authority is an Attester (A1) that claims the time = is some value E1. When THE Attester (A2), receives E1. What does he do = with it? Does he forward it (see my reply to Michael=E2=80=99s thread) = or does he use it to create Evidence E2? I think you=E2=80=99re = suggesting it=E2=80=99s the latter. In this case, the evidence consists = of a claim that expects the time. E.g. Claim c1 in E2 looks like: = c1.name =3D =E2=80=9Cname of something=E2=80=9D, c1.timestamp =3D = E1.time, c1.xyz =3D =E2=80=A6=20 =20 Interpreting TUDA (draft-birkholz-tuda) on behalf of Henk... =20 * The Sync token of TUDA's Figure 1 (let's call it E3) is created by = signing across E1 plus E2 (a local TPM quote) to create E3. =20 * E1, E2, and E3 all must be analyzed by A2 to determine the validity of = the sync token. =20 The question to ask is whether or not provenance of E1.time needs to be = communicated to Verifier. Maybe A2 just needs to prove that it uses a = secure time source and that=E2=80=99s it? If you=E2=80=99re saying = Verifier needs to know which time source it used, then it becomes a = question of defining the claim c1 in such a way that it includes E1 (or = points to it somehow) =E2=80=93 BTW I=E2=80=99m assuming E1 is signed by = A1 so it has provenance. =20 E1 signed by A1 is an assumption of TUDA. You need to know the = Public Key of the TSA in order to understand (at minimum) a base = timeticks or timestamp of the TSA. (Actually it is a little more = complicated than that, the Attester signs Quotes to the TSA, which is = then signed and timestamped by the TSA.) In any case, the answer to = your question is that C1 will sometimes need to include E1 from a known, = verifiable external source. =20 Eric =20 =20 This seems like an interesting possibility / use case. =20 -Ned =20 From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" > Date: Thursday, January 23, 2020 at 12:57 PM To: "Smith, Ned" >, = Dave Thaler >, = Henk Berkholz >, Michael Richardson = > Cc: "rats@ietf.org " > Subject: RE: [Rats] Composite Evidence =20 Hi Ned, =20 From: Smith, Ned, January 23, 2020 2:04 PM Eric, Can you say more about relayed evidence in terms of how it was obtained = and how it is protected as it is =E2=80=98relayed=E2=80=99? =20 The Passport and Background Check models incorporate = =E2=80=98relaying=E2=80=99 of Evidence, but don=E2=80=99t try to = describe the Evidence as =E2=80=98relayed evidence=E2=80=99.=20 =20 While it isn't 100% clear in the current terminology, I see = "Attestation Results" as a special type of evidence. This is evidence = where any trustworthiness claims made of the Attester can be accepted = without requiring further evaluation. =20 The Relying Party needs a way to validate the freshness of whatever = comes from the Verifier. This can be done a number of ways. For = example in my diagram below, the TPM2's timeticks counters can be = included in [1] and [4]. As the TPM has predictable incrementing of = these counters. The deltas between the timeticks counters can be = trusted, even though both claims were generated from within an Attester = Component. =20 A related question then is whether the Attestation Results in [2] = actually match to the TpmQuote from [1]. The Relying party can = establish this based on a hash within [2] proving its relation to [1]. =20 In the context of Attesting Environment Collecting Evidence from a = Target environment the way it is collected seems to determine whether it = would be classified as (i), (ii) or (iii). (Note: there is the category = of simple evidence that is just a set of atomic claims =E2=80=93 no need = to drill deeper into the foo[] data structure =E2=80=93 and not = represented by (i), (ii) or (iii) I agree with other type of evidence/claims relating to the = attester in general, and these not needing to be provably associated = with any specific sub-component. This is one of the reasons I am = hoping we turn this discussion towards a decomposed set of evidence = types, rather than having individual terms for different combinations of = composite evidence. )=20 =20 If (i) means the target environment consists of a decomposition of = things, then there is expected to be a nesting of Evidence that = parallels the decomposition. Nesting is certainly possible. So I am fine with this statement. = To match this to my example below, step [4] assembles a composition of = this evidence, rather than doing any nesting. Although perhaps nesting = *could* be claimed the Attestation Results in [2] contains a hash of = [1]. Is this nesting? Is this Layering? I don't know. =20 If (i) also means the target environment consists of a decomposition of = things and where there is a =E2=80=98local verifier=E2=80=99 that = evaluates Evidence and produces an Attestation Result in the place where = the decomposition would otherwise expect nested Evidence then this seems = to overload (i) somewhat. This is the exact reason why I got caught up attempting a = definition of "Layering". I am not sure what constraints can a 'local = verifier' trustworthy, nor when a 'networked verifier' can provide = validation into a TCG DICE type Layer. These are not questions I have = looked at closely. =20 =20 However, it could be that one of these is what you mean by (iii)? This is one type of thing covered in (iii). The generalization = of what I intended from (iii) was evidence provided by an Attester which = is provably not generated within the Attester. For example, a recent = Time quote from a Time Stamp Authority like in draft-birkholz-rats-tuda = could also be included in what is sent to a Verifier/Relying Party. =20 Eric =20 -Ned =20 From: RATS > on = behalf of "Eric Voit (evoit)" = > Date: Thursday, January 23, 2020 at 7:40 AM To: Dave Thaler >, = "Smith, Ned" >, Henk = Berkholz >, Michael Richardson = > Cc: "rats@ietf.org " > Subject: Re: [Rats] Composite Evidence =20 Hi Ned, Hi Dave, =20 I agree with Ned's framing of (i) and (ii). These two are embedded in = my passport example below. We also have (iii): evidence which is = relayed from outside the Attester. I think (iii) needs to be broken out = as an evidence type because signed information from the Verifier should = be trusted differently from other evidence the Attester. =20 That makes: (i) component evidence (ii) time-series evidence (iii) relayed evidence =20 Beyond (i), (ii), & (iii), do we need term combinations of (i), (ii), & = (iii) with the word "composite"? Hopefully we wouldn't need to define = six terms for each combination of these three variants. Otherwise my = example might be called "component, time-series, relayed composite = evidence". And that is a mouthful. =20 Eric =20 =20 From: Dave Thaler, January 22, 2020 9:05 PM Agree with Ned that we should keep composite devices separate from time = series snapshots of the same component in terms of concepts. =20 From: Smith, Ned < ned.smith@intel.com>=20 Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 5:54 PM To: Eric Voit (evoit) < evoit@cisco.com>; = Birkholz, Henk < = henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>; Michael Richardson < = mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>; Dave Thaler < = dthaler@microsoft.com> Cc: rats@ietf.org Subject: Re: Composite Evidence =20 Eric, I think there are two types of =E2=80=9Ccomposite=E2=80=9D things that = could be considered (i) decompositions of hardware and software such as = a motherboard and the sub-components that could be plugged into it and = (ii) time series snapshots of the same component.=20 =20 You seem to be asserting (ii) where a time series snapshot of the same = thing could be considered =E2=80=9Ccomposite evidence=E2=80=9D.=20 =20 I think both cases are valid, but maybe it makes sense to use different = terms for each as they seem to have distinct properties. (e.g. evidence = having multiple entries of a component with the same name under (i) = implies multiple instances of the same type of device =E2=80=93 such as = two NIC cards. Whereas under (ii) multiple entries implies there is one = instance of the NIC sampled over a time interval.=20 =20 -Ned =20 From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" > Date: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 at 4:04 PM To: Henk Berkholz >, Michael Richardson = >, Dave Thaler = >, "Smith, Ned" = > Cc: "rats@ietf.org " > Subject: Composite Evidence =20 Henk, Dave, Michael, Ned, =20 I promised you a definition for Composite Evidence. You can see my = proposed definition directly the text below, but I am not willing yet to = place it in a Pull Request. I thought an email thread might be helpful = first. =20 Anyway my strawman definition for Composite Evidence is: Evidence which = includes multiple sub-elements of evidence, more than one of which can = be computationally verified to have been generated by a specific = Attester Subcomponent or Verifier. =20 I built this definition considering the passport model, which looks like = it will often needs to use composite evidence. As an example of why I = believe this, see the use case below. =20 .--------------. =20 | Verifier A | '--------------' =20 ^ [2] =20 | Verifier A signed Attestation Results @time(x) ( evidence( | determination, hash(TpmQuote@time(x))) =20 TpmQuote | =20 @time(x)) | =20 [1] V =20 .-------------. .---------------. | Attester |<------nonce @time(y)---[3]| Verifier B | | .-----. | | / | | | Tpm | |[4]-composite evidence ( ->| Relying Party | | '-----' | TpmQuote@time(y), '---------------' '-------------' TpmQuote@time(x), =20 Verifier A signed Attestation Results @time(x) = ) =20 =20 =20 In the example above, evidence at time x is generated and signed within = a TPM. This would *not* be composite evidence. This evidence would be = evaluated by Verifier A, signed, and returned as Attestation Results to = the Attester. A subsequent request from a Relying Party at time y = could pull three independently signed elements of evidence from the = Attester. These three would comprise the composite evidence which when = taken together would allow Verifier B / Relying Party to evaluate the = current trustworthiness of the Attester. =20 Does this definition meet your needs? =20 Thanks, Eric ------=_NextPart_001_01F3_01D5D21F.7C6A2D50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi = Ned,

 

From: Smith, Ned, January 23, 2020 6:26 = PM

Eric said =E2=80=9CHowever, it could be that one of these is what you = mean by (iii)?

<eric> This is one type = of thing covered in (iii).  The generalization of what I intended = from (iii) was evidence provided by an Attester which is provably not = generated within the Attester.  For example, a recent Time = quote from a Time Stamp Authority like in draft-birkholz-rats-tuda could = also be included in what is sent to a Verifier/Relying = Party.=E2=80=9D

[nms] The Time Stamp = Authority is an Attester (A1) that claims the time is some value E1. = When THE Attester (A2), receives E1. What does he do with it? Does he = forward it (see my reply to Michael=E2=80=99s thread) or does he use it = to create Evidence E2? I think you=E2=80=99re suggesting it=E2=80=99s = the latter. In this case, the evidence consists of a claim that expects = the time. E.g. Claim c1 in E2 looks like: c1.name =3D =E2=80=9Cname of = something=E2=80=9D, c1.timestamp =3D E1.time, c1.xyz =3D =E2=80=A6 =

 

<eric2> Interpreting TUDA = (draft-birkholz-tuda) on behalf of Henk...=C2=A0 =

  • The Sync token of TUDA's Figure 1 (let's call = it E3) is created by signing across E1 plus E2 (a local TPM quote) to = create E3.=C2=A0
  • E1, E2, and E3 all must be analyzed by A2 to = determine the validity of the sync token.

 

The question to ask is = whether or not provenance of E1.time needs to be communicated to = Verifier. Maybe A2 just needs to prove that it uses a secure time source = and that=E2=80=99s it? If you=E2=80=99re saying Verifier needs to know = which time source it used, then it becomes a question of defining the = claim c1 in such a way that it includes E1 (or points to it somehow) = =E2=80=93 BTW I=E2=80=99m assuming E1 is signed by A1 so it has = provenance.

 

<eric2> E1 signed by A1 = is an assumption of TUDA.=C2=A0 You need to know the Public Key of the = TSA in order to understand (at minimum) a base timeticks or timestamp of = the TSA.=C2=A0 (Actually it is a little more complicated than that, the = Attester signs Quotes to the TSA, which is then signed and timestamped = by the TSA.)=C2=A0 =C2=A0In any case, the answer to your question is = that C1 will sometimes need to include E1 from a known, verifiable = external source.

 

Eric

 

 

This seems like an = interesting possibility / use case.

 

-Ned

 

From: = "Eric Voit (evoit)" = <evoit@cisco.com>
Date: = Thursday, January 23, 2020 at 12:57 PM
To: "Smith, = Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, Dave = Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>, = Henk Berkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunho= fer.de>, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
Cc: "rats@ietf.org" = <rats@ietf.org>
Subject: = RE: [Rats] Composite Evidence

 

Hi = Ned,

 

From: Smith, Ned, January 23, 2020 2:04 = PM

Eric,

Can you say more = about relayed evidence in terms of how it was obtained and how it is = protected as it is =E2=80=98relayed=E2=80=99?

 

The Passport and = Background Check models incorporate =E2=80=98relaying=E2=80=99 of = Evidence, but don=E2=80=99t try to describe the Evidence as = =E2=80=98relayed evidence=E2=80=99.

 

<eric> While it isn't = 100% clear in the current terminology, I see "Attestation = Results"  as a special type of evidence. This is evidence = where any trustworthiness claims made of the Attester can be accepted = without requiring further evaluation.

 

The = Relying Party needs a way to validate the freshness of whatever comes = from the Verifier.   This can be done a number of ways.  =  For example in my diagram below, the TPM2's timeticks counters can = be included in [1] and [4].  As the TPM has predictable = incrementing of these counters.  The deltas between the timeticks = counters can be trusted, even though both claims were generated from = within an Attester Component.

 

A = related question then is whether the Attestation Results in [2] actually = match to the TpmQuote from [1].  The Relying party can establish = this based on a hash within [2] proving its relation to = [1].

 

In the context of = Attesting Environment Collecting Evidence from a Target environment the = way it is collected seems to determine whether it would be classified as = (i), (ii) or (iii). (Note: there is the category of simple evidence that = is just a set of atomic claims =E2=80=93 no need to drill deeper into = the foo[] data structure =E2=80=93 and not represented by (i), (ii) or = (iii)

<eric> I agree with other = type of evidence/claims relating to the attester in general, and these = not needing to be provably associated with any specific = sub-component.    This is one of the reasons I am hoping = we turn this discussion towards a decomposed set of evidence types, = rather than having individual terms for different combinations of = composite evidence.

)

 

If (i) means the = target environment consists of a decomposition of things, then there is = expected to be a nesting of Evidence that parallels the = decomposition.

<eric> Nesting is = certainly possible. So I am fine with this statement.  To match = this to my example below, step [4] assembles a composition of this = evidence, rather than doing any nesting.  Although perhaps nesting = *could* be claimed the Attestation Results in [2] contains a hash of = [1].  Is this nesting?  Is this Layering?  I don't = know.

 

If (i) also means the = target environment consists of a decomposition of things and where there = is a =E2=80=98local verifier=E2=80=99 that evaluates Evidence and = produces an Attestation Result in the place where the decomposition = would otherwise expect nested Evidence then this seems to overload (i) = somewhat.

<eric> This is the exact = reason why I got caught up attempting a definition of = "Layering".  I am not sure what constraints can a 'local = verifier' trustworthy, nor when a 'networked verifier' can provide = validation into a TCG DICE type Layer.  These are not questions I = have looked at closely.   

 

However, it could be = that one of these is what you mean by (iii)?

<eric> This is one type = of thing covered in (iii).  The generalization of what I intended = from (iii) was evidence provided by an Attester which is provably not = generated within the Attester.  For example, a recent Time quote = from a Time Stamp Authority like in draft-birkholz-rats-tuda could also = be included in what is sent to a Verifier/Relying = Party.

 

Eric

 

-Ned

 

From: = RATS <rats-bounces@ietf.org> on = behalf of "Eric Voit (evoit)" <evoit@cisco.com>
Date: = Thursday, January 23, 2020 at 7:40 AM
To: Dave Thaler = <dthaler@microsoft.com>, = "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>, Henk = Berkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunho= fer.de>, Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>
Cc: "rats@ietf.org" = <rats@ietf.org>
Subject: = Re: [Rats] Composite Evidence

 

Hi = Ned,

Hi Dave,

 

I agree with Ned's = framing of (i) and (ii).  These two are embedded in my passport = example below.    We also have (iii): evidence = which is relayed from outside the Attester.  I think (iii) needs to = be broken out as an evidence type because signed information from the = Verifier should be trusted differently from other evidence the = Attester.

 

That = makes:

 (i) component = evidence

(ii) time-series = evidence

(iii) relayed = evidence

 

Beyond (i), (ii), = & (iii), do we need term combinations of (i), (ii), & (iii) with = the word "composite"?  Hopefully we wouldn't need to = define six terms for each combination of these three variants.  = Otherwise my example might be called "component, time-series, = relayed composite evidence".  And that is a = mouthful.

 

Eric

 

 

From: Dave Thaler, January 22, 2020 9:05 = PM

Agree with Ned that we should = keep composite devices separate from time series snapshots of the same = component in terms of concepts.

 

From: Smith, Ned <ned.smith@intel.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 22, = 2020 5:54 PM
To: Eric Voit (evoit) <evoit@cisco.com>; Birkholz, Henk <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunhofer.de>; Michael Richardson <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>; Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>
Cc: rats@ietf.org
Subject: Re: Composite = Evidence

 

Eric,

I think there are two = types of =E2=80=9Ccomposite=E2=80=9D things that could be considered (i) = decompositions of hardware and software such as a motherboard and the = sub-components that could be plugged into it and (ii) time series = snapshots of the same component.

 

You seem to be = asserting (ii) where a time series snapshot of the same thing could be = considered =E2=80=9Ccomposite evidence=E2=80=9D. =

 

I think both cases = are valid, but maybe it makes sense to use different terms for each as = they seem to have distinct properties. (e.g. evidence having multiple = entries of a component with the same name  under (i) implies = multiple instances of the same type of device =E2=80=93 such as two NIC = cards. Whereas under (ii) multiple entries implies there is one instance = of the NIC sampled over a time interval.

 

-Ned

 

From: = "Eric Voit (evoit)" = <evoit@cisco.com>
Date: Wednesday, January 22, 2020 = at 4:04 PM
To: Henk Berkholz <henk.birkholz@sit.fraunho= fer.de>, Michael Richardson = <mcr+ietf@sandelman.ca>, Dave Thaler <dthaler@microsoft.com>, "Smith, Ned" <ned.smith@intel.com>
Cc: "rats@ietf.org" <rats@ietf.org>
Subject: Composite = Evidence

 

Henk,       = ;  Dave,

Michael,   =  Ned,

 

I promised you a = definition for Composite Evidence.  You can see my proposed = definition directly the text below, but I am not willing yet to place it = in a Pull Request. I thought an email thread might be helpful = first.

 

Anyway my strawman = definition for Composite Evidence is:  Evidence which includes multiple sub-elements of = evidence, more than one of which can be computationally verified to have = been generated by a specific Attester Subcomponent or = Verifier.

 

I built this = definition considering the passport model, which looks like it will = often needs to use composite evidence.  As an example of why I = believe this, see the use case below.

 

    = .--------------.         &nb= sp;  

    |  Verifier A  = |

    = '--------------'    

        ^ =     = [2]           =

        | =     Verifier A signed Attestation Results @time(x) = (

    evidence(  |  = determination, hash(TpmQuote@time(x))) 

    TpmQuote   = |            =      

    @time(x))  = |            =             =

       [1] &nbs= p;   = V            =             =

     .-------------. &nbs= p;            = ;            = .---------------.

     |  Attester   = |<------nonce @time(y)---[3]|  Verifier B   = |

     |    = .-----.  = |            =             &= nbsp;  |       = /       |

     |    | Tpm = |  |[4]-composite evidence ( ->| Relying Party = |

     |    = '-----'  |      = TpmQuote@time(y),    = '---------------'

     = '-------------'      TpmQuote@time(x),  =

         &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;    Verifier A signed Attestation Results = @time(x) = )            =           =

 

 

In the example above, = evidence at time x is generated and signed within a TPM.  This = would *not* be composite evidence.   This evidence would be = evaluated by Verifier A, signed, and returned as Attestation Results to = the Attester.   A subsequent request from a Relying Party at = time y could pull three independently signed elements of evidence from = the Attester.  These three would comprise the composite evidence = which when taken together would allow Verifier B / Relying Party to = evaluate the current trustworthiness of the = Attester.

 

Does this definition = meet your needs?

 

Thanks,

Eric

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b=ul1nfLK0pRd3uh5cQjnGM4vCFBTFG7pg1H22sPt+LfGTItd8wsNiBqtuuefnMCVFXxDsz26SvmanTVWGN1zoHReSqyJDlRPbXr53MvDfMIs8h7j0GFAwdhALacgAZxHNaLIKQ+87vT9AmE/fdaLFWj8gL/StEAfLMkbmQZ3o3dY= Received: from BYAPR11MB2536.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (52.135.226.32) by BYAPR11MB3174.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (20.177.127.27) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.2644.20; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 00:13:00 +0000 Received: from BYAPR11MB2536.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::20d1:96f3:bde9:17e5]) by BYAPR11MB2536.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::20d1:96f3:bde9:17e5%5]) with mapi id 15.20.2665.017; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 00:12:59 +0000 From: "Eric Voit (evoit)" To: "Smith, Ned" , Michael Richardson , "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Rats] Composite Evidence Thread-Index: AdXRgB49sEcLGXWTRbyFhaWoEjRAwwAWWlWAAB2RpAD//6sSAIAAlNyA//+lU4D///EWUA== Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2020 00:12:59 +0000 Message-ID: References: <25403.1579747229@localhost> 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charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > -----Original Message----- > From: RATS On Behalf Of Smith, Ned > Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2020 6:11 PM > To: Michael Richardson ; rats@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [Rats] Composite Evidence >=20 > See [%] marker inline below. >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 1/23/20, 12:36 PM, "RATS on behalf of Michael Richardson" = bounces@ietf.org on behalf of mcr@sandelman.ca> wrote: >=20 >=20 > Smith, Ned wrote: > > The semantics of 'union composite evidence' (below) seems to = suggest > > that the local Verifier that produced 'ar' is itself an = attestable > > claim. The Attester asserts that the Attestation Results = from a local > > Verifier are trustworthy and that they originated from a = sub- > component > > of its Target environment. >=20 > Yes. > As explained by Eric in his diagram, the "ar" results might not be = produced > locally, they may be the result of a trip to a different (remote) = verifier. > Or as you suggest, they may be produced within some TEE, for which = there > are > evidence claims about why it's trust worthy. >=20 > I think that this all maps to what I understand about TEEP = actually. >=20 > > Another way to think about it is the Attesting environment = knows > that > > the Target environment includes a Verifier and wants to = assert that > the > > Verifier has trustworthiness properties - possibly by = returning its > > SWID tag value. The Remote Verifier can then evaluate the > > trustworthiness of the SWID tag. >=20 > Sure, that is a specific way. > I think that the Chassis+Line Card situation also can work as an = example. >=20 > > Based on that, if the Remote Verifier trusts the Local = Verifier then > > the local Attestation Results are not claims asserted by the = Attesting > > environment, but claims asserted by the Local Verifier. The = only claim > > that seems to make sense from the Attesting environment's > perspective > > is that an 'ar' value from its Target was forwarded to a = Remote > > Verifier. Signing the local Verifier's ar payload just = asserts that the > > forwarding action has taken place. This is an argument for = defining an > > 'Attestation Results forwarded' claim. Maybe this isn't that = valuable > > in terms of a trustworthiness claim? >=20 > [%] I think you are saying that rather than documenting that we = forward a > union > of evidence and attestation results, that we document that will = create a > kind > of evidence, which includes attestation results? > Maybe. It really is a case of multiplexing several conversations over = the same > conveyance mechanism, but otherwise conversations could be de- > multiplexed (without creating unnecessary cross-dependencies). For = example > in both Passport and BK-Check topology models, a message is simply = relayed. > The endpoints are still the way they're defined in the Roles Arch = diagram. >=20 > Email may not be the best way to try to illustrate but here goes. I = assert that > Eric's diagram can be recast into two graphs where graph (a) is the = sub- > component attester (A1), the local verifier (V1) and a relying party = (RP). The > second graph (b) consists of the top level Attester (A2), a remote = verifier (V2) > and the same relying party (RP). > Looks something like: > (a) A1 --- E1 ---> V1 --- AR1 ---> RP; > (b) A2 --- E2 ---> V2 --- AR2 ---> RP. >=20 > However, since A1 and V1 don't have a conveyance path to RP, they use = the > one established by (b). The Combination topological model shows a case > where the Attester is relying/forwarding attestation results. = Normally, an > attester doesn't consume attestation results. This same thing is = happening in > Eric's example because AR1 is piggy backed with E2 on its way to V2 = and AR1 > is also piggy backed with AR2 on its way to RP. >=20 > I don't think we want to position that because AR1 is piggy backed = with E2 > that this creates a new type of Evidence (E3). It is still just (AR1, = E2). >=20 > If it makes sense to define "routing claims" that assert that A2 = intended to > piggy back AR1 with E2 then that should imply that if E2 =3D (c1) and = c2 =3D > routing claim then E2' =3D (c1, c2). The conveyance still carries = (AR1, E2') , but > possibly the c2 claim names AR1 as the piggy i.e. c2.name =3D "AR1". >=20 > V2 can verify the c2 claim and create an AR2' claim c3.name=3D"AR1" = and send > (AR1, AR2'); where AR2 =3D (c4,...,cn) and AR2' =3D (c3, c4,...,cn). = RP can similarly > verify c3. Namely, the c3.name=3D"AR1" claim is inspected to have = payload AR1 > as piggy. >=20 > The "routing" claims are ancillary to the basic roles and messages = that are > the core basis for trust among the endpoint entities - IMO. The core = flows > are separable from routing. Routing shouldn't lead us down a path of = having > new types of evidence (E3). I agree that routing itself doesn't imply a new type of evidence. What = we do have at Attester is some trigger for when to collect the specific = set of claims which are needed by the Relying Party to accomplish a = particular use case.=20 Eric > > If however the Attesting environment wanted to make a = stronger > > trustworthiness assertion it would have some other way to = collect > > Evidence about the Targeted sub-components (who must already > have their > > own Attesting environments). But if the Attesting = environment could > do > > this then it must be the same environment as the = sub-components' > > Attesting environments. In which case, there is no need for = a local > > Verifier - it is just complexity for complexity's sake. >=20 > I think that I agree. >=20 > It could be that there are competitive or regulatory reasons why = the Lead > Attester does not wish to reveal the types of the line cards = attached. > Consider an automobile (or passenger rail car, or human-rated = Rocket) > that > needs to attest that it has four good tires (which passed their = 20,000km > inspection), but which does not wish to reveal which manufacturer > provided > those tires. Passing on evidence directly would be a problem. > [nms] Privacy is an important consideration. If Evidence is privacy = sensitive, > then it can be encrypted. The routing claims don't require transparent > Evidence to name them. Could compute a hash of E or AR or if endpoints > have security associations, then E and AR can be encrypted and a = digest of > ciphertext becomes its name for the purpose of routing claims (see my > response above). >=20 > > The case of a local Verifier working with a remote Verifier = is > > semantically the same as a Remote Verifier working with = another > Remote > > Verifier. So, I don't see why Evidence and Attestation = Results formats > > need to do anything special - like 'union composite = evidence'. It just > > says that Verifier1 may evaluate Evidence about Verifier2 = before > > trusting Attestation Results from Verifier2. >=20 > Thus my query up at [%]. >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats ------=_NextPart_000_0205_01D5D221.1EE908C0 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIMWTCCA0Mw ggIroAMCAQICEF/4eygrVNyNQqMVtWjJrf8wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwNTEWMBQGA1UEChMNQ2lz Y28gU3lzdGVtczEbMBkGA1UEAxMSQ2lzY28gUm9vdCBDQSAyMDQ4MB4XDTA0MDUxNDIwMTcxMloX DTI5MDUxNDIwMjU0MlowNTEWMBQGA1UEChMNQ2lzY28gU3lzdGVtczEbMBkGA1UEAxMSQ2lzY28g Um9vdCBDQSAyMDQ4MIIBIDANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ0AMIIBCAKCAQEAsJq5q6evCnen4nG2 tGZilHiIR8ZiVYRAMr/Aqy6lHHHWvG57qKq6btIViEhFnaL8g9DMuYzgJmhwSnjfIRee9GEFyRXI 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X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17EA71200F9 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 16:41:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wM1-91ptLF-F for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 16:41:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from p3plsmtpa06-04.prod.phx3.secureserver.net (p3plsmtpa06-04.prod.phx3.secureserver.net [173.201.192.105]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9649C120019 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 16:41:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.76] ([76.167.193.86]) by :SMTPAUTH: with ESMTPA id un2dimZpj6NxFun2eiACd4; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 17:41:44 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) From: Laurence Lundblade In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 16:41:43 -0800 Cc: "Smith, Ned" , Michael Richardson , "rats@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <937DAF5E-CC8D-4552-8E4C-9CF67EC9C640@island-resort.com> References: <25403.1579747229@localhost> <85492C6F-E854-448F-9507-BBAC25455392@intel.com> <14896.1579811757@localhost> To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfDPnWjGx3XrbbBPVnyIhPfLWHieJpm/COHImSFupxvVDLgnJ5yH/xWBF6Qw0o/mCOnmb/D0w/jiL41wiMUDtU6TKlA4TtYGGgFkVHLYZT0ylxnlb/Sro oTGuzTiKkHvoW0g+2SiThryVPVDrjTIkS5Fl/bm81rSza2Qs2FRW/bsSGaTE1AQ86C+S+xuVCOYGpNJybILR9+FFGQG1mqSljNxoICgdryPCNQDg6ehJFtWw z4xy+8A6n9mxeryyGSHrDg== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Composite Evidence X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2020 00:41:50 -0000 Not up to speed on this thread but two comments: - It seems the notion of target environment is important here. - I am interested in implications for EAT submods. Seems you should be = able to express this stuff in EAT. LL > On Jan 23, 2020, at 4:12 PM, Eric Voit (evoit) = wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: RATS On Behalf Of Smith, Ned >> Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2020 6:11 PM >> To: Michael Richardson ; rats@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [Rats] Composite Evidence >>=20 >> See [%] marker inline below. >>=20 >> =EF=BB=BFOn 1/23/20, 12:36 PM, "RATS on behalf of Michael Richardson" = > bounces@ietf.org on behalf of mcr@sandelman.ca> wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >> Smith, Ned wrote: >>> The semantics of 'union composite evidence' (below) seems to suggest >>> that the local Verifier that produced 'ar' is itself an attestable >>> claim. The Attester asserts that the Attestation Results from a = local >>> Verifier are trustworthy and that they originated from a sub- >> component >>> of its Target environment. >>=20 >> Yes. >> As explained by Eric in his diagram, the "ar" results might not be = produced >> locally, they may be the result of a trip to a different (remote) = verifier. >> Or as you suggest, they may be produced within some TEE, for which = there >> are >> evidence claims about why it's trust worthy. >>=20 >> I think that this all maps to what I understand about TEEP = actually. >>=20 >>> Another way to think about it is the Attesting environment knows >> that >>> the Target environment includes a Verifier and wants to assert that >> the >>> Verifier has trustworthiness properties - possibly by returning its >>> SWID tag value. The Remote Verifier can then evaluate the >>> trustworthiness of the SWID tag. >>=20 >> Sure, that is a specific way. >> I think that the Chassis+Line Card situation also can work as an = example. >>=20 >>> Based on that, if the Remote Verifier trusts the Local Verifier then >>> the local Attestation Results are not claims asserted by the = Attesting >>> environment, but claims asserted by the Local Verifier. The only = claim >>> that seems to make sense from the Attesting environment's >> perspective >>> is that an 'ar' value from its Target was forwarded to a Remote >>> Verifier. Signing the local Verifier's ar payload just asserts that = the >>> forwarding action has taken place. This is an argument for defining = an >>> 'Attestation Results forwarded' claim. Maybe this isn't that = valuable >>> in terms of a trustworthiness claim? >>=20 >> [%] I think you are saying that rather than documenting that we = forward a >> union >> of evidence and attestation results, that we document that will = create a >> kind >> of evidence, which includes attestation results? >> Maybe. It really is a case of multiplexing several conversations over = the same >> conveyance mechanism, but otherwise conversations could be de- >> multiplexed (without creating unnecessary cross-dependencies). For = example >> in both Passport and BK-Check topology models, a message is simply = relayed. >> The endpoints are still the way they're defined in the Roles Arch = diagram. >>=20 >> Email may not be the best way to try to illustrate but here goes. I = assert that >> Eric's diagram can be recast into two graphs where graph (a) is the = sub- >> component attester (A1), the local verifier (V1) and a relying party = (RP). The >> second graph (b) consists of the top level Attester (A2), a remote = verifier (V2) >> and the same relying party (RP). >> Looks something like: >> (a) A1 --- E1 ---> V1 --- AR1 ---> RP; >> (b) A2 --- E2 ---> V2 --- AR2 ---> RP. >>=20 >> However, since A1 and V1 don't have a conveyance path to RP, they use = the >> one established by (b). The Combination topological model shows a = case >> where the Attester is relying/forwarding attestation results. = Normally, an >> attester doesn't consume attestation results. This same thing is = happening in >> Eric's example because AR1 is piggy backed with E2 on its way to V2 = and AR1 >> is also piggy backed with AR2 on its way to RP. >>=20 >> I don't think we want to position that because AR1 is piggy backed = with E2 >> that this creates a new type of Evidence (E3). It is still just (AR1, = E2). >>=20 >> If it makes sense to define "routing claims" that assert that A2 = intended to >> piggy back AR1 with E2 then that should imply that if E2 =3D (c1) and = c2 =3D >> routing claim then E2' =3D (c1, c2). The conveyance still carries = (AR1, E2') , but >> possibly the c2 claim names AR1 as the piggy i.e. c2.name =3D "AR1". >>=20 >> V2 can verify the c2 claim and create an AR2' claim c3.name=3D"AR1" = and send >> (AR1, AR2'); where AR2 =3D (c4,...,cn) and AR2' =3D (c3, c4,...,cn). = RP can similarly >> verify c3. Namely, the c3.name=3D"AR1" claim is inspected to have = payload AR1 >> as piggy. >>=20 >> The "routing" claims are ancillary to the basic roles and messages = that are >> the core basis for trust among the endpoint entities - IMO. The core = flows >> are separable from routing. Routing shouldn't lead us down a path of = having >> new types of evidence (E3). >=20 > I agree that routing itself doesn't imply a new type of evidence. = What we do have at Attester is some trigger for when to collect the = specific set of claims which are needed by the Relying Party to = accomplish a particular use case.=20 >=20 > Eric >=20 >>> If however the Attesting environment wanted to make a stronger >>> trustworthiness assertion it would have some other way to collect >>> Evidence about the Targeted sub-components (who must already >> have their >>> own Attesting environments). But if the Attesting environment could >> do >>> this then it must be the same environment as the sub-components' >>> Attesting environments. In which case, there is no need for a local >>> Verifier - it is just complexity for complexity's sake. >>=20 >> I think that I agree. >>=20 >> It could be that there are competitive or regulatory reasons why = the Lead >> Attester does not wish to reveal the types of the line cards = attached. >> Consider an automobile (or passenger rail car, or human-rated = Rocket) >> that >> needs to attest that it has four good tires (which passed their = 20,000km >> inspection), but which does not wish to reveal which manufacturer >> provided >> those tires. Passing on evidence directly would be a problem. >> [nms] Privacy is an important consideration. If Evidence is privacy = sensitive, >> then it can be encrypted. The routing claims don't require = transparent >> Evidence to name them. Could compute a hash of E or AR or if = endpoints >> have security associations, then E and AR can be encrypted and a = digest of >> ciphertext becomes its name for the purpose of routing claims (see my >> response above). >>=20 >>> The case of a local Verifier working with a remote Verifier is >>> semantically the same as a Remote Verifier working with another >> Remote >>> Verifier. So, I don't see why Evidence and Attestation Results = formats >>> need to do anything special - like 'union composite evidence'. It = just >>> says that Verifier1 may evaluate Evidence about Verifier2 before >>> trusting Attestation Results from Verifier2. >>=20 >> Thus my query up at [%]. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> RATS mailing list >> RATS@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats > _______________________________________________ > RATS mailing list > RATS@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/rats From nobody Thu Jan 23 17:09:02 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEB4112001A for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 17:09:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xsNjeu-TdwZx for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 17:08:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mga02.intel.com (mga02.intel.com [134.134.136.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8E255120019 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 17:08:53 -0800 (PST) X-Amp-Result: SKIPPED(no attachment in message) X-Amp-File-Uploaded: False Received: from fmsmga008.fm.intel.com ([10.253.24.58]) by orsmga101.jf.intel.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 23 Jan 2020 17:08:52 -0800 X-ExtLoop1: 1 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.70,355,1574150400"; d="scan'208";a="222503817" Received: from orsmsx102.amr.corp.intel.com ([10.22.225.129]) by fmsmga008.fm.intel.com with ESMTP; 23 Jan 2020 17:08:52 -0800 Received: from orsmsx151.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.226.38) by ORSMSX102.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.225.129) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.439.0; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 17:08:51 -0800 Received: from orsmsx109.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.11.6]) by ORSMSX151.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.7.99]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 17:08:51 -0800 From: "Smith, Ned" To: Laurence Lundblade , "Eric Voit (evoit)" CC: Michael Richardson , "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Rats] Composite Evidence Thread-Index: AdXRgB49sEcLGXWTRbyFhaWoEjRAwwAWWlWAAB2RpAD//6sSAIAAlNyA//+lU4D///EWUIAArkGA//+BeAA= Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2020 01:08:50 +0000 Message-ID: References: <25403.1579747229@localhost> <85492C6F-E854-448F-9507-BBAC25455392@intel.com> <14896.1579811757@localhost> <937DAF5E-CC8D-4552-8E4C-9CF67EC9C640@island-resort.com> In-Reply-To: <937DAF5E-CC8D-4552-8E4C-9CF67EC9C640@island-resort.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.21.0.200113 x-originating-ip: [10.24.11.54] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Composite Evidence X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2020 01:09:02 -0000 SSB0aGluayB0aGUgZ2lzdCBpcyB3ZSdyZSBsb29raW5nIGF0IGNhc2VzIHdoZXJlIHN1Ym1vZHMg Y291bGQgYmUgZW50aXRpZXMgdGhhdCBpbmNsdWRlIFJBVFMgcm9sZXMgYXMgd2VsbCBhcyBUYXJn ZXQgYW5kIEF0dGVzdGluZyBlbnZpcm9ubWVudHMuIA0KVGhlIHRocmVhZCBpcyB0cnlpbmcgdG8g cHVsbCB0aGlzIGFwYXJ0IHRvIHNlZSBpZiB0aGVyZSBhcmUgd2F5cyB0byBzaW1wbGlmeSBieSBy ZWFwcGx5aW5nIHRoZSBiYXNpYyBjb25jZXB0cyBvciBpZiB0aGVyZSBhcmUgbmV3IGNvbmNlcHRz IHRoYXQgbmVlZCB0byBiZSBncmFwcGxlZCB3aXRoLg0KDQrvu79PbiAxLzIzLzIwLCA0OjQxIFBN LCAiTGF1cmVuY2UgTHVuZGJsYWRlIiA8bGdsQGlzbGFuZC1yZXNvcnQuY29tPiB3cm90ZToNCg0K 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ICA+IF9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQogICAg PiBSQVRTIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KICAgID4gUkFUU0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KICAgID4gaHR0cHM6Ly93 d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9yYXRzDQogICAgDQogICAgDQoNCg== From nobody Thu Jan 23 17:12:16 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F208012001A for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 17:12:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2RxKjYPGJRPt for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 17:12:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mga07.intel.com 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14.03.0439.000; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 17:12:04 -0800 From: "Smith, Ned" To: "Eric Voit (evoit)" , Dave Thaler , "Birkholz, Henk" , Michael Richardson CC: "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Rats] Composite Evidence Thread-Index: AQHV0h/jsEcLGXWTRbyFhaWoEjRAw6f4ozQQgABBXACAAAGQ4IAAHDKA Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2020 01:12:02 +0000 Message-ID: <3D68C5CB-D385-4ACA-8218-8A2639207F7C@intel.com> References: <7527C725-950B-4C7F-999A-28CDF6775B00@intel.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.21.0.200113 msip_labels: MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Enabled=True; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_SiteId=72f988bf-86f1-41af-91ab-2d7cd011db47; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Owner=dthaler@ntdev.microsoft.com; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_SetDate=2020-01-23T02:04:41.5804837Z; MSIP_Label_f42aa342-8706-4288-bd11-ebb85995028c_Name=General; 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Fri, 24 Jan 2020 10:19:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 41AC3120044 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 10:19:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38D683897F; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 13:19:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 586BB60A; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 13:19:36 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: "Smith\, Ned" cc: "rats\@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: References: <25403.1579747229@localhost> <85492C6F-E854-448F-9507-BBAC25455392@intel.com> <14896.1579811757@localhost> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 25.1.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Composite Evidence X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2020 18:19:42 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Smith, Ned wrote: mcr> [%] I think you are saying that rather than documenting that we mcr> forward a union of evidence and attestation results, that we mcr> document that will create a kind of evidence, which includes attestation results? Ned> Maybe. It really is a case of multiplexing several conversations Ned> over the same conveyance mechanism, but otherwise conversations Ned> could be de-multiplexed (without creating unnecessary Ned> cross-dependencies). For example in both Passport and BK-Check Ned> topology models, a message is simply relayed. The endpoints are Ned> still the way they're defined in the Roles Arch diagram. yes, I agree, we could send a list of evidence and a list of attestion results from components. I don't really know what the list of potential *verification* protocols is. (I know that I want to include it in RFC8366/BRSKI voucher-requests, once that is an RFC) I don't think this communication can ever be via certificate, while the final attestation results could be placed inside a certificate. Ned> Email may not be the best way to try to illustrate but here goes. I Ned> assert that Eric's diagram can be recast into two graphs where graph Ned> (a) is the sub-component attester (A1), the local verifier (V1) and Ned> a relying party (RP). The second graph (b) consists of the top level Ned> Attester (A2), a remote verifier (V2) and the same relying party Ned> (RP). Ned> Looks something like: Ned> (a) A1 --- E1 ---> V1 --- AR1 ---> RP; Ned> (b) A2 --- E2 ---> V2 --- AR2 ---> RP. I agree this is a reasonable diagram. Ned> If it makes sense to define "routing claims" that assert that A2 Ned> intended to piggy back AR1 with E2 then that should imply that if E2 Ned> = (c1) and c2 = routing claim then E2' = (c1, c2). The conveyance Ned> still carries (AR1, E2') , but possibly the c2 claim names AR1 as Ned> the piggy i.e. c2.name = "AR1". Are you saying that the fact that (b) is relayed via E1 is important, and should be communicated by having E1 sign the transaction as well? Mcr> It could be that there are competitive or regulatory reasons why the Lead Mcr> Attester does not wish to reveal the types of the line cards attached. Mcr> Consider an automobile (or passenger rail car, or human-rated Rocket) that Mcr> needs to attest that it has four good tires (which passed their 20,000km Mcr> inspection), but which does not wish to reveal which manufacturer provided Mcr> those tires. Passing on evidence directly would be a problem. Ned> [nms] Privacy is an important consideration. If Evidence is privacy Ned> sensitive, then it can be encrypted. The routing claims don't Ned> require transparent Evidence to name them. Could compute a hash of E Ned> or AR or if endpoints have security associations, then E and AR can Ned> be encrypted and a digest of ciphertext becomes its name for the Ned> purpose of routing claims (see my response above). Agreed. -- ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh networks [ ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | IoT architect [ ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails [ -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl4rNTgACgkQgItw+93Q 3WXI6Af7BiqU44Gr3M/yyOnaUUwLvN+mXGfUC+INMmeLIrScONYhmzZMSAP/iPIi zoiPyZ8SRdNS22A+9hsDolKBz/m8Gmp6SrbJNru2LoCoxj3wP8LjovfWcNw33iEn 79Hq5C/KbGw6b2+n6MZH8Y06Z0LFlNSWLh4p5I4yawOUlbNyml7Q1mRYu98pbTuO lrrY9DMOxklLUkAIRJT77/IlpPWFbR7004jMoQqITQ1pVqnHyY5aUoGxf1mR3U0J gICr4w4B5XZuNjCEc/r2ouI/SRm8CMTuYEDp7d355caE1riu8fKAaIICfQRuT30M JuYESiXu2AsDfI5/CsYsp2FfLCtY9w== =05wO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Fri Jan 24 10:21:30 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D88471200F5 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 10:21:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A34hYCJXDb7W for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 10:21:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 24384120044 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 10:21:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 178613897F; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 13:20:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3740060A; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 13:21:27 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: "Eric Voit \(evoit\)" cc: "Smith\, Ned" , "rats\@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: References: <25403.1579747229@localhost> <85492C6F-E854-448F-9507-BBAC25455392@intel.com> <14896.1579811757@localhost> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 25.1.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Composite Evidence X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2020 18:21:30 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Eric Voit (evoit) wrote: >> If it makes sense to define "routing claims" that assert that A2 intended to >> piggy back AR1 with E2 then that should imply that if E2 = (c1) and c2 = >> routing claim then E2' = (c1, c2). The conveyance still carries (AR1, E2') , but >> possibly the c2 claim names AR1 as the piggy i.e. c2.name = "AR1". >> >> V2 can verify the c2 claim and create an AR2' claim c3.name="AR1" and send >> (AR1, AR2'); where AR2 = (c4,...,cn) and AR2' = (c3, c4,...,cn). RP can similarly >> verify c3. Namely, the c3.name="AR1" claim is inspected to have payload AR1 >> as piggy. >> >> The "routing" claims are ancillary to the basic roles and messages that are >> the core basis for trust among the endpoint entities - IMO. The core flows >> are separable from routing. Routing shouldn't lead us down a path of having >> new types of evidence (E3). eric> I agree that routing itself doesn't imply a new type of evidence. eric> What we do have at Attester is some trigger for when to collect the eric> specific set of claims which are needed by the Relying Party to eric> accomplish a particular use case. I think that it's important. In my automobile/tire situation, it is important that the attestation result that my car sends are for tires attached to *my* car. Even if they were on your car this morning when they were evaluated. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl4rNaYACgkQgItw+93Q 3WU3UggAvAmd/4Z1Y2Gi9zfYzaykxxULgllkLhlowVGFAC70xLfyPRj6Ca4jiKVz huFfujFsBSlpdRDxV/rCFJg7mGAav6dsP35C7eQ16rUhZFUtcEcdkwaP2WBuD5bB kBRdPu/JjkJZPz3Uh0cqQZ1zgRQ9eBVRdpeH7+Z5OuNJl4+5bNbXiDJP235upz5Y rfShM189061nu4eicYJeyblf/noTEvOtvULpP9P9EDoE13qYrjSyBKxSolH0n3SA Nv1t76TbBgOYJ/YChI/iCcCq8zaeHRRMpZxC5xjxai2CQY0PVZyarEk5lokDpNbb IM3SpeCwZ9rFuve3Os02Lrt+uwwK7w== =n4Kc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Fri Jan 24 10:22:54 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D27091200F5 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 10:22:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZyQnh0Kon_vn for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 10:22:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5A99E120044 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 10:22:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:2::247]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5FC938981; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 13:22:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12FCF60A; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 13:22:50 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: Laurence Lundblade cc: "Eric Voit \(evoit\)" , "Smith\, Ned" , "rats\@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: <937DAF5E-CC8D-4552-8E4C-9CF67EC9C640@island-resort.com> References: <25403.1579747229@localhost> <85492C6F-E854-448F-9507-BBAC25455392@intel.com> <14896.1579811757@localhost> <937DAF5E-CC8D-4552-8E4C-9CF67EC9C640@island-resort.com> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 25.1.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Composite Evidence X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2020 18:22:53 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Laurence Lundblade wrote: > Not up to speed on this thread but two comments: > - It seems the notion of target environment is important here. > - I am interested in implications for EAT submods. Seems you should be > able to express this stuff in EAT. yes, I believe that what we are doing is providing *architectural* justification for features that are probably already in EAT. I think that this will help with the eventual security evaluation of the specification(s), because we will know from this use case scenario what the threat model is. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl4rNfkACgkQgItw+93Q 3WWw2wf8DG71dVreS84pc7W1MH7sbA+Ne6Gcn+L97ex2KG8HaMmmqdSfXK5l9oPq EP5ra1EcAB6qhglvZE0BGsz9+9WOSQD2s+xouDYcTR7MeDNTuyByEPgWAQW7VM3D TN8kpOCAXB4M+WRpK0zhLkljX4oRy5m9XkHCHA9BjvK4iVcYS+lDmTBl6+kYvEdz zYb5bKUReTte+6U9aQF50dWBSkJBRNRDhD0oR2iOclcZFPNhyzut99n3qDjiEmbk yVDvf6xjxoBIA3q+SG8VB6MpMJdcWBteV6JZfW+XlVAVIVDvfUq8xQEq0rUj+owy nspgRlesBokPhnd0MGD+PEGt55dMLA== =ML9c -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Fri Jan 24 11:13:03 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB398120BE1 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 11:13:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n9uhxtpS0IiX for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 11:12:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mga17.intel.com (mga17.intel.com [192.55.52.151]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5E234120AC9 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 11:12:58 -0800 (PST) X-Amp-Result: SKIPPED(no attachment in message) X-Amp-File-Uploaded: False Received: from fmsmga008.fm.intel.com ([10.253.24.58]) by fmsmga107.fm.intel.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 24 Jan 2020 11:12:57 -0800 X-ExtLoop1: 1 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.70,358,1574150400"; d="scan'208";a="222697373" Received: from orsmsx105.amr.corp.intel.com ([10.22.225.132]) by fmsmga008.fm.intel.com with ESMTP; 24 Jan 2020 11:12:57 -0800 Received: from orsmsx162.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.240.85) by ORSMSX105.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.225.132) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.439.0; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 11:12:56 -0800 Received: from orsmsx109.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.11.6]) by ORSMSX162.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.3.134]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 11:12:56 -0800 From: "Smith, Ned" To: Michael Richardson CC: "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Rats] Composite Evidence Thread-Index: AdXRgB49sEcLGXWTRbyFhaWoEjRAwwAWWlWAAB2RpAD//6sSAIAAlNyA//+lU4CAAcbpAP//iMmA Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2020 19:12:55 +0000 Message-ID: References: <25403.1579747229@localhost> <85492C6F-E854-448F-9507-BBAC25455392@intel.com> <14896.1579811757@localhost> <14740.1579889976@localhost> In-Reply-To: <14740.1579889976@localhost> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.21.0.200113 x-originating-ip: [10.24.10.97] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <249549CBA8E0E845B61102B29AFD4A87@intel.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Composite Evidence X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2020 19:13:02 -0000 DQoNCu+7v09uIDEvMjQvMjAsIDEwOjE5IEFNLCAiUkFUUyBvbiBiZWhhbGYgb2YgTWljaGFlbCBS aWNoYXJkc29uIiA8cmF0cy1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnIG9uIGJlaGFsZiBvZiBtY3IraWV0ZkBz YW5kZWxtYW4uY2E+IHdyb3RlOg0KDQogICAgDQogICAgU21pdGgsIE5lZCA8bmVkLnNtaXRoQGlu dGVsLmNvbT4gd3JvdGU6DQogICAgICAgIG1jcj4gWyVdIEkgdGhpbmsgeW91IGFyZSBzYXlpbmcg 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ICAgICAgfCAgIHJ1Ynkgb24gcmFpbHMgICAgWw0KICAgIA0KICAgIA0KICAgIC0tDQogICAgTWlj aGFlbCBSaWNoYXJkc29uIDxtY3IrSUVURkBzYW5kZWxtYW4uY2E+LCBTYW5kZWxtYW4gU29mdHdh cmUgV29ya3MNCiAgICAgLT0gSVB2NiBJb1QgY29uc3VsdGluZyA9LQ0KICAgIA0KICAgIA0KICAg IA0KICAgIA0KDQo= From nobody Fri Jan 24 12:15:38 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 049A5120858 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 12:15:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Aq7JHApaoM9M for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 12:15:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from tuna.sandelman.ca (tuna.sandelman.ca [IPv6:2607:f0b0:f:3:216:3eff:fe7c:d1f3]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 104DB1209E9 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 12:15:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from sandelman.ca (obiwan.sandelman.ca [209.87.249.21]) by tuna.sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2BDB3897F; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 15:14:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by sandelman.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB9B460A; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 15:15:31 -0500 (EST) From: Michael Richardson To: "Smith\, Ned" cc: "rats\@ietf.org" In-Reply-To: References: <25403.1579747229@localhost> <85492C6F-E854-448F-9507-BBAC25455392@intel.com> <14896.1579811757@localhost> <14740.1579889976@localhost> X-Mailer: MH-E 8.6; nmh 1.7+dev; GNU Emacs 25.1.1 X-Face: $\n1pF)h^`}$H>Hk{L"x@)JS7<%Az}5RyS@k9X%29-lHB$Ti.V>2bi.~ehC0; <'$9xN5Ub# z!G,p`nR&p7Fz@^UXIn156S8.~^@MJ*mMsD7=QFeq%AL4m Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Composite Evidence X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2020 20:15:37 -0000 --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Smith, Ned wrote: > Smith, Ned wrote: mcr> [%] I think you are saying that rather than documenting that we mcr> forward a union of evidence and attestation results, that we mcr> document that will create a kind of evidence, which includes attestation results? Ned> Maybe. It really is a case of multiplexing several conversations Ned> over the same conveyance mechanism, but otherwise conversations Ned> could be de-multiplexed (without creating unnecessary Ned> cross-dependencies). For example in both Passport and BK-Check Ned> topology models, a message is simply relayed. The endpoints are Ned> still the way they're defined in the Roles Arch diagram. mcr> yes, I agree, we could send a list of evidence and a list of attestion mcr> results from components. I don't really know what the list of potential mcr> *verification* protocols is. Nms> I don't know what a verification protocol is. I would describe the Nms> interaction between a Verifier and Relying Party as Attestation Nms> Results exchange over a conveyance protocol. This implies there is a Nms> protocol binding specification needed for each protocol that is used Nms> for conveyance. I don't know what to call the Attester->Verifier connection. Yes, it's a conveyance protocol. mcr> I don't think this communication can ever be via certificate, while the final mcr> attestation results could be placed inside a certificate. nms> Both a certificate and token are examples of signed documents that nms> could include both Evidence or Attestation Results A certificate (manufacturer signed IDevID...) could convey fresh evidence? I find that hard to believe. -- Michael Richardson , Sandelman Software Works -= IPv6 IoT consulting =- --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEbsyLEzg/qUTA43uogItw+93Q3WUFAl4rUGMACgkQgItw+93Q 3WXWMQgAhHyAwoQ8cWdClDCYRm2pGcid/fffU2tBSiwLaLqDjyjFw6GY0Q+p9T+e mhZuGLrn9f5dPdbe+a65CbOb9BBcTS/1b4lcmOVeSW0u8ulPCjAqMwj+yJOqAFdc ZOf+qM/rC1SWZrjKcuVd50dhGzvvDip4sBxpSfd3UFw+gW3fUJy4eeUWwiSRX350 k7qHEWTqBOR6D7nxVCbqf2Uk8XSG89pAl69xafBga/I0uq7VABaUJ8UFxgCjcU/u 0WGMILQ8dHTV9sapyi5TwMtW6Vj/BlX3bGG/xyJ8Kn+MPCqJ53xEg3QNispxVBZH K7gsFYnK//m3eAptxviPMLk6h8NzTA== =OmwB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=-- From nobody Fri Jan 24 13:04:41 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13D3A1200A3 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 13:04:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Sl6m_SqgPlUM for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 13:04:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mga12.intel.com (mga12.intel.com [192.55.52.136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1B38D120052 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 13:04:37 -0800 (PST) X-Amp-Result: SKIPPED(no attachment in message) X-Amp-File-Uploaded: False Received: from orsmga005.jf.intel.com ([10.7.209.41]) by fmsmga106.fm.intel.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 24 Jan 2020 13:04:37 -0800 X-ExtLoop1: 1 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.70,358,1574150400"; d="scan'208";a="400768753" Received: from orsmsx109.amr.corp.intel.com ([10.22.240.7]) by orsmga005.jf.intel.com with ESMTP; 24 Jan 2020 13:04:36 -0800 Received: from orsmsx121.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.225.226) by ORSMSX109.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.240.7) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.439.0; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 13:04:36 -0800 Received: from orsmsx109.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.11.6]) by ORSMSX121.amr.corp.intel.com ([169.254.10.34]) with mapi id 14.03.0439.000; Fri, 24 Jan 2020 13:04:36 -0800 From: "Smith, Ned" To: Michael Richardson CC: "rats@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [Rats] Composite Evidence Thread-Index: AdXRgB49sEcLGXWTRbyFhaWoEjRAwwAWWlWAAB2RpAD//6sSAIAAlNyA//+lU4CAAcbpAP//iMmAgACXmoD//4eZgA== Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2020 21:04:35 +0000 Message-ID: References: <25403.1579747229@localhost> <85492C6F-E854-448F-9507-BBAC25455392@intel.com> <14896.1579811757@localhost> <14740.1579889976@localhost> <12261.1579896931@localhost> In-Reply-To: <12261.1579896931@localhost> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.21.0.200113 x-originating-ip: [10.24.10.97] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <100FDA861AF42841BDE16260BAB085BE@intel.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Rats] Composite Evidence X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Jan 2020 21:04:40 -0000 DQoNCu+7v09uIDEvMjQvMjAsIDEyOjE1IFBNLCAiUkFUUyBvbiBiZWhhbGYgb2YgTWljaGFlbCBS aWNoYXJkc29uIiA8cmF0cy1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnIG9uIGJlaGFsZiBvZiBtY3IraWV0ZkBz YW5kZWxtYW4uY2E+IHdyb3RlOg0KDQogICAgDQogICAgU21pdGgsIE5lZCA8bmVkLnNtaXRoQGlu dGVsLmNvbT4gd3JvdGU6DQogICAgICAgID4gU21pdGgsIE5lZCA8bmVkLnNtaXRoQGludGVsLmNv bT4gd3JvdGU6DQogICAgICAgIG1jcj4gWyVdIEkgdGhpbmsgeW91IGFyZSBzYXlpbmcgdGhhdCBy 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YXMgYXR0ZXN0ZWQgYnkgYSB0cnVzdGVkIEF0dGVzdGluZyBlbnZpcm9ubWVudC4gSSBiZWxpZXZl IEVBVCBzdWJtb2RzIGNsYWltIHN1cHBvcnRzIHRoaXMgdXNhZ2UuDQogICAgLS0NCiAgICBNaWNo YWVsIFJpY2hhcmRzb24gPG1jcitJRVRGQHNhbmRlbG1hbi5jYT4sIFNhbmRlbG1hbiBTb2Z0d2Fy ZSBXb3Jrcw0KICAgICAtPSBJUHY2IElvVCBjb25zdWx0aW5nID0tDQogICAgDQogICAgDQogICAg DQogICAgDQoNCg== From nobody Tue Jan 28 14:41:39 2020 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rats@ietf.org Delivered-To: rats@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2DF8120018; Tue, 28 Jan 2020 14:41:33 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: IESG Secretary To: "IETF-Announce" Cc: rats@ietf.org X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.116.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <158025129357.4648.7654869773256818052@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 14:41:33 -0800 Archived-At: Subject: [Rats] Remote ATtestation ProcedureS (rats) WG Virtual Meeting: 2020-02-05 X-BeenThere: rats@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 List-Id: Remote Attestation Procedures List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2020 22:41:34 -0000 The Remote ATtestation ProcedureS (rats) Working Group will hold a virtual interim meeting on 2020-02-05 from 07:00 to 08:00 America/Los_Angeles. Agenda: 2020-02-05 RATS Virtual Interim Agenda: •7:00 – 7:05 (PST) Agenda bash / note takers (5min) •7:05 – 7:10 Use case & arch status - Michael Richardson / Dave Thaler (5 min) •7:10 – 7:15 EAT draft - UEID claim - Laurence Lundblade (5 min) •7:15 – 7:30 EAT draft - Submods claim - Laurence Lundblade (15 min) •7:30 – 7:45 EAT draft - Debug and Boot State claims - Laurence Lundblade (15 min) •7:45 – 8:00 EAT draft - Claims characteristics topic - Laurence Lundblade (15 min) Information about remote participation: WebEx - see RATS email list for further details.